Vol. 583 Tuesday, No. 3 6 April 2004

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DA´ IL E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Tuesday, 6 April 2004.

Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 537 Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism Priority Questions …………………………… 553 Other Questions …………………………… 563 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 572 Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 572 Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 31 ……………… 581 Order of Business ……………………………… 583 Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Bill 2003: Financial Resolution … … 599 Air Navigation and Transport (International Conventions) Bill 2004 [Seanad]: Order for Report Stage …………………………… 600 Report and Final Stages …………………………… 600 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: Second Stage (resumed) ………………… 611 Private Members’ Business: Parliamentary Organisations: Motion ……………………… 621 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: Second Stage (resumed) ………………… 650 Adjournment Debate Job Losses ………………………………… 672 Schools Building Projects …………………………… 675 EU Enlargement Celebrations ………………………… 677 Organ Transplants……………………………… 679 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 685 537 538

DA´ IL E´ IREANN 9. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting in Rome with the Italian ———— Prime Minister, Mr. Berlusconi, on 12 February 2004; and if he will make a statement on the De´ Ma´irt, 6 Aibrea´n 2004. matter. [5586/04] Tuesday, 6 April 2004. 10. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting in Dublin on 16 February ———— 2004 with the Estonian Prime Minister, Mr. Juhan Parts; and if he will make a statement on the Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar matter. [5690/04] 2.30 p.m. 11. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will ———— make a statement on the outcome of his meeting in Dublin on 16 February 2004 with the Estonian Paidir. Prime Minister, Mr. Juhan Parts. [5711/04] Prayer. 12. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will ———— make a statement on the outcome of his meeting in Dublin on 16 February 2004 with the UN special adviser on Cyprus. [5712/04] Ceisteanna — Questions. 13. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will ———— report on his attendance at the Davos World Economic Forum; and if he will make a statement Official Engagements. on the matter. [5886/04] 1. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will 14. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the matters discussed and conclusions report on his 12 February 2004 meeting with the reached at his meeting with the president of the Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi; and if Union of Industrial and Employers’ he will make a statement on the matter. Confederations of Europe; and if he will make a [5888/04] statement on the matter. [3694/04] 15. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will 2. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his February 2004 meeting in Dublin report on his attendance at the World Economic with the German Chancellor, Mr. Gerhard Forum in Davos; and if he will make a statement Schro¨ der; and if he will make a statement on the on the matter. [3698/04] matter. [5889/04] 3. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will 16. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he has report on the matters discussed and conclusions received a letter from Prime Minister Blair, reached at his meeting with the French Foreign Chancellor Schro¨ der and President Chirac on the Minister, Mr. Dominique de Villepin; and if he outcome of their tripartite meeting in Berlin on will make a statement on the matter. [3700/04] 18 February 2004; his views on the call made at 4. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will the meeting for the appointment of a European report on his recent meeting in Dublin with the Commission vice-president to drive the Lisbon Portuguese Prime Minister, Mr. Durao Barroso; process; and if he will make a statement on the and if he will make a statement on the matter. matter. [6064/04] [4593/04] 17. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach the 5. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach the contents of the letter received by him on 18 matters discussed and conclusions reached at his February 2004 from the leaders of Britain, France meeting with the German Chancellor, Mr. and Germany, following their tripartite summit in Gerhard Schro¨ der, on 9 February 2004; and if he Berlin; and if he will make a statement on the will make a statement on the matter. [4626/04] matter. [6105/04] 6. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will 18. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the make a statement on his participation in the matters discussed and conclusions reached at his World Economic Forum at Davos in recent meeting with the Estonian Prime Minister, Switzerland. [4627/04] Mr. Juhan Parts, in Dublin. [6695/04] 7. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will 19. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the make a statement on the outcome of his meeting matters discussed and conclusions reached at his on 12 February 2004 with the Italian Prime recent meeting with the German Chancellor, Mr. Minister, Silvio Berlusconi. [5050/04] Gerhard Schro¨ der. [6697/04] 8. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach the agenda 20. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the for the March 2004 meeting of the European matters discussed and conclusions reached at his Council; and if he will make a statement on the recent meeting with the Portuguese Prime matter. [5584/04] Minister, Mr. Durao Barroso. [6698/04] 539 Ceisteanna — 6 April 2004. Questions 540

21. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the in Madrid on 11 March 2004; and if he will make matters discussed and conclusions reached at his a statement on the matter. [8955/04] recent meeting with the Italian Prime Minister, 33. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach the Mr. Silvio Berlusconi. [6699/04] contact he has had with the Spanish Prime 22. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the Minister elect, Jose´ Luis Rodrı´guez Zapatero, matters discussed and conclusions reached at his following the Spanish general election on 14 recent meeting with the Finnish Prime Minister, March 2004; and if he will make a statement on Mr. Matti Vanhanen. [6700/04] the matter. [8956/04] 23. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the 34. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the matters discussed and conclusions reached at his matters discussed and conclusions reached at the recent meeting with the UN Secretary General’s European Council meeting in Brussels on 25 and special adviser on Cyprus, Mr. Alvaro de Soto. 26 March 2004. [9086/04] [6701/04] 35. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he 24. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if Prime will report on his contacts with EU leaders Minister Blair, Chancellor Schro¨ der and following the terrorist atrocity in Madrid; and if President Chirac have communicated with him he will make a statement on the matter. regarding their tripartite meeting in Berlin on 18 [9092/04] February 2004; and if he will make a statement 36. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the on the matter. [6703/04] matters discussed and conclusions reached at his 25. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he meeting with the French President in advance of will report on the correspondence he received the European Council meeting in March 2004. from the Prime Ministers of Italy, Spain, the [9093/04] Netherlands, Portugal, Poland and Estonia 37. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the regarding the Lisbon Agenda of economic matters discussed and conclusions reached at his reforms; and if he will make a statement on the meeting with the chair of the Convention on the matter. [6708/04] Future of Europe, Mr. Vale´ry Giscard 26. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will d’Estaing. [9101/04] make a statement on the outcome of his meeting 38. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the on 23 February 2004 with the Finnish Prime matters discussed and conclusions reached at his Minister, Mr. Matti Vanhanen. [6717/04] meeting with the Slovak Prime Minister, Mr. 27. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will Mikulas Dzurinda. [9102/04] report on his recent meeting with the chairman 39. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach the of the Convention on the Future of Europe, Mr. contacts he has had with the new Spanish Prime Vale´ry Giscard d’Estaing; and if he will make a Minister, Mr. Jose´ Luis Rodrı´guez Zapatero; and statement on the matter. [8595/04] if he will make a statement on the matter. [9110/04] 28. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of his meeting 40. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will on 10 March 2004 with the Danish Prime make a statement on his participation in and the Minister, Mr. Anders Fogh Rasmussen. outcome of the spring European Council on 25 [8600/04] and 26 March 2004. [9563/04] 29. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will 41. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of his meeting make a statement on his visit to Madrid on 24 with the Prime Minister of Slovakia, Mr. Mikulas March 2004. [9567/04] Dzurinda on 12 March 2004. [8601/04] 42. Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Taoiseach 30. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will if he will report on his meeting with the president report on his meeting with the European of the Union of Industrial and Employers’ Environment Bureau, the European Trade Union Confederations of Europe; and if he will make a Confederation, and the Social Platform on 2 statement on the matter. [9770/04] February 2004 concerning the agenda for the 43. Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Taoiseach spring EU Summit; and if he will make a if he will report on his visit to Madrid on 24 statement on the matter. [8605/04] March 2004; and if he will make a statement on 31. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach the steps the matter. [9817/04] he proposes to take in his capacity as President of 44. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will the Council of Ministers, arising from the bomb report on the outcome of the March 2004 meeting attacks in Madrid on 11 March 2004; and if he of the European Council; and if he will make a will make a statement on the matter. [8954/04] statement on the matter. [10542/04] 32. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach the 45. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will discussions he has had, or plans to have, with report on his bilateral meetings on the margins of other EU leaders arising from the bomb attacks the recent European Council meeting in Brussels; 541 Ceisteanna — 6 April 2004. Questions 542 and if he will make a statement on the matter. Presidency, we dedicated the first session of the [10544/04] spring European Council on 25 March to a discussion on the European Union’s response to 46. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will the terrorist attacks in Madrid. As I have report on his address to the European Parliament mentioned, the European Council adopted a in Strasbourg on 31 March 2004; and if he will declaration on combating terrorism and a related make a statement on the matter. [10545/04] declaration on solidarity against terrorism, which The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions comprise a range of practical measures aimed at Nos. 1 to 46, inclusive, together. greatly enhancing our ability to better protect As part of our current Presidency of the our citizens. European Union, I chaired the European Council We also appointed the former Dutch interior meeting held in Brussels on 25 and 26 March. The Minister, Mr. Gjis de Vries, as the EU’s first Council conclusions and the declaration on counter-terrorism co-ordinator. I have combating terrorism adopted at the meeting have undertaken an intensive round of consultations been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. with my counterparts on the Intergovernmental As Deputies are aware, on Tuesday, 30 March, Conference over the past three months. Since I the earliest opportunity following the European last reported to the House, I have met a number Council, I made a comprehensive statement in of EU leaders in Dublin, including Prime the House on the outcome of the Council. I also Minister Barroso of Portugal on 4 February, answered questions on the Council following the Chancellor Schro¨ der on 9 February following his statements. I do not, therefore, propose to go in meeting with President Chirac in Berlin earlier to too much detail again. that day, Prime Minister Parts of Estonia on 16 Briefly, the spring European Council was a February, Prime Minister Vanhanen of Finland successful one for the European Union and on 23 February, Prime Minister Juncker of significant progress was achieved. We adopted a Luxembourg on 2 March, Prime Minister Spidla declaration on combating terrorism; agreed to of the Czech Republic on 3 March, Prime resume our negotiations in the Intergovernmental Minister Rasmussen of Denmark on 10 March, Conference and reach agreement no later than Prime Minister Blair on 11 March and Prime our next meeting in June; identified what needs Minister Dzurinda of the Slovak Republic on 12 to be done to promote sustainable growth and March. more jobs; and discussed a range of foreign policy On 12 February, I travelled to Rome for a issues and adopted conclusions, including on the meeting with Prime Minister Berlusconi. We Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Balkans and reviewed the substantial progress made on the Russia. While I had no bilateral meetings on the IGC under his chairmanship. I underlined our margins of the European Council, I did have a determination to build on this progress during the joint meeting with the President of the Irish Presidency. The Prime Minister set out Commission and the President of the Parliament Italy’s views in a clear and positive way and I before the Council. welcomed his insights. We also reviewed a range On Wednesday, 31 March, I presented my of issues on the EU agenda, including the Lisbon report on the outcome of the spring European agenda, the Commission’s proposals on the Council to the European Parliament in financial perspectives and a range of foreign Strasbourg. I received positive feedback from policy issues of mutual interest. MEPs on the progress achieved so far by I met the former chairman of the European Ireland’s Presidency. Convention, Mr. Vale´ry Giscard d’Estaing, Once again I condemn in the strongest possible during his visit to Dublin on 11 March last. We terms the appalling atrocity that took place in had a useful meeting and I was interested to hear Madrid on 11 March in which nearly 200 people his perspective on the key issues outstanding in lost their lives and many hundreds were injured. the IGC. I was struck by the wonderful sense of solidarity On Monday, 22 March, I travelled to Paris for displayed by people throughout the European discussions with President Chirac. This meeting Union who participated in the three minutes’ was a key element of the consultation process I silence on 15 March which had been requested by have been undertaking. I briefed the President on the Irish Presidency in commemoration of those my extensive contacts since the beginning of the who died or were injured. year and he provided me with an important On Wednesday, 24 March, I attended a insight into the latest French thinking on the ceremonial Mass for the victims of the bombings IGC. I was encouraged by his wholehearted in Madrid. It was a moving event which allowed support for our efforts and his determination to us to pray for and pay our respects to the victims see the IGC concluded by the June European and show our solidarity with the Spanish people Council on 17 and 18 June. at this difficult time. All these discussions, in both person and by The challenge for us as holders of the telephone, were both useful and informative in Presidency has been to respond to these terrible terms of developing a better understanding of the events in an appropriate way. An emergency concerns which remain and of assessing the meeting of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers possibilities for progress. The clear message took place on 19 March and, as holders of the which has come through is one of commitment to 543 Ceisteanna — 6 April 2004. Questions 544

[The Taoiseach.] comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus problem moving forward with a view to finding a before 1 May 2004. I assured Mr. de Soto that the reasonable solution. EU would continue to support strongly the I made a report to the European Council in central role of the UN Secretary General. Brussels on Thursday, 25 March. My report I had a further opportunity to meet Mr. de Soto contained a summary account of the work done in Government Buildings yesterday. He briefed to date based on the extensive consultations that me on the outcome of the recently concluded have taken place both at political and official UN-led negotiations. I acknowledged the long- level. It also outlined our overall assessment of standing effort of the UN Secretary General to the state of play, as well as our understanding of create a unique and historic opportunity for a where scope for compromise and agreement settlement to the Cyprus problem. The decision might lie. Over dinner, we discussed how best to on the plan for a settlement as presented to the take matters forward over the coming months parties by the UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and, as I have mentioned, we agreed on the on 31 March now rests ultimately with the people objective of concluding the IGC at the European of Cyprus who will vote in separate simultaneous Council in mid-June. referenda on 24 April. There is consensus that the new constitution I addressed the annual meeting of the World will be good for Europe. It will contribute to Economic Forum in Davos on 24 January in my greater understanding of what the Union is, what capacity as President of the European Council. In it does and why. With ten new countries will join my speech, I outlined the priorities which the on 1 May, it contains provisions necessary to Irish Presidency is addressing in the context of enable the Union to develop and grow further in the Lisbon agenda, as well as my determination this new context. As I made clear to my to step up its implementation. The full text of my European Council colleagues, I believe that early speech can be viewed on the Irish Presidency agreement is possible if we have the collective website. My attendance at the forum afforded an imagination to keep the wider picture in mind. ideal opportunity to inform an international The universal message I have received from audience of business leaders about the partners is that delay will not make matters any Presidency’s ongoing agenda in regard to the easier. It is in all our interests to reach agreement ongoing economic, social and environmental on the constitutional project as soon as possible, programme that is the Lisbon agenda. particularly in view of the difficult discussions on On 2 February, I addressed a conference on other issues, such as the future financing of the sustainable development co-hosted by the Union, which lie ahead. European Environment Bureau, the European On 22 January, I met a UNICE group led by Trade Union Conference and the Social Platform, its president, Dr. Strbe. The group presented me and co-sponsored by the Department of the with a short paper which outlined UNICE’s main Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I areas of interest in regard to the Irish Presidency outlined to the conference the Presidency’s of the European Union and, in particular, for the approach to sustainable growth as part of the spring European Council. The discussions Lisbon agenda. focused mainly on European competitiveness and On 18 February, Prime Minister Blair, employment issues. In addition, we discussed the Chancellor Schro¨ der and President Chirac wrote forthcoming enlargement of the Union and jointly to me and President Prodi outlining the institutional issues. I had a further meeting with issues discussed at their trilateral meeting that UNICE prior to the European Council on 25 day. The letter contained a number of proposals March. I also had a meeting with a delegation and suggestions on how best the European from the European Trade Union Confederation Council might pursue the Lisbon agenda in the on 13 January. Meetings of this kind with social areas of innovation, employment and social partners are critical to boosting the role that cohesion. Many of the issues and suggestions social dialogue can play in progressing, and referred to are ones that the Irish Presidency had ultimately achieving, the overall Lisbon goal. been progressing in the context of the spring The French Foreign Minister, Mr. Dominique European Council. The proposal by the three de Villepin, paid a courtesy call on me in leaders for the appointment of a vice-president Government Buildings on 30 January. We of the Commission recognises the need for a co- discussed a range of issues, including the ordinated and integrated response to the Intergovernmental Conference and the Lisbon competitiveness challenges facing the European agenda. Union at all levels. I met the United Nations Secretary General’s The Irish Presidency has consistently Special Adviser on Cyprus, Mr. Alvaro de Soto underlined the importance of coherence in in Dublin on 16 February last. I congratulated addressing the many reforms and targets which Mr. de Soto on the excellent work carried out by make up the Lisbon agenda and the need for a UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and his team well co-ordinated approach. This need was in New York the previous week which resulted in reflected in the Irish Presidency’s approach to last the announcement on 13 February that the Greek month’s spring European Council, which called and Turkish Cypriots had committed to on the incoming Commission President to negotiating in good faith to achieve a consider how to ensure the competitiveness 545 Ceisteanna — 6 April 2004. Questions 546 agenda is effectively supported. Of course, it show their solidarity with those families who lost would be a matter for the incoming President to people and to try to do something practical to consider the precise mandate and functions of the show their support for the families. I think they College of Commissioners. would also want European leaders, Ministers for On 16 February, I received a joint contribution Justice and everybody else to co-operate in an to the spring European Council from the Prime effort to prevent what happened to their people Ministers of Spain, the Netherlands, Italy, ever happening again. Portugal, Poland and Estonia. This contribution On the second issue, this was discussed at the affirmed the support of the six leaders for the European Council , in the European Parliament approach being taken. It also outlined their and in the European forum where we discussed thoughts on specific areas, including innovation, this issue for some hours last Thursday. People research and development, competitiveness and want to see a European constitution. More than macroeconomic stability. 200 parliamentarians worked hard and put in a I spoke to the new Greek Prime Minister, Mr. major effort to bring about a conclusion to the Costas Karamanlis, by telephone on 22 March. Convention on the Future of Europe last year, I congratulated him on his election success and and this has been brought forward by the IGC. briefed him on the Irish Presidency’s approach to There is a general wish for agreement and I hope the spring European Council and on my that can be achieved. We must take it forward as consultations on the IGC. best we can and do everything humanly possible. I spoke to Jose´ Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, I hope it can be concluded. There is never any Spain’s incoming Prime Minister, by telephone on certainty in these issues. As I outlined last week, 16 March. I offered my sympathies on the recent a number of issues are outstanding, such as tragic events in Madrid and I briefed him on the weighted voting, qualified majority voting, QMV, Irish Presidency’s response. the issue of a Commissioner per member state and the number of members in the European Mr. J. Higgins: Does the Taoiseach agree that Parliament. There are many other outstanding the proper response to the murderous atrocity in budgetary and financial issues. Some countries Madrid was shown by the Spanish people the still have concerns about issues and these have following day when some 12 million not been resolved. There are approximately 30 demonstrated publicly, including native people issues outstanding. We will do all we can in the and immigrants together, and that this, rather remaining months of the Irish Presidency to bring than lurching towards blunt, repressive legislation it as far as we possibly can. within the EU, shows the way forward? As we It is a matter for every country to decide for know, this type of legislation will often hit the itself whether to hold a referendum. There will innocent rather than the guilty. be a referendum in this country. The normal time It is obvious from the Taoiseach’s response that to hold a referendum is within 18 months to two he has been busy and has spoken to many years of the end of an IGC, but it has not been European leaders. Will he state the present decided yet. As I stated to the House last week position after all the discussions regarding the and at the forum, we should do our utmost to proposal for a constitutional treaty for the explain the issues although the work of the European Union? What are the net issues Convention greatly helped people to understand outstanding and is he of the view that such a the issues, and that was quite clear from the treaty will be agreed before the end of June? meeting of the forum held a few days ago. The Taoiseach stated that there is consensus among European leaders but no such consensus Mr. Kenny: Arising from the Taoiseach’s among many of the ordinary people of Europe, comments at the European forum last Thursday, including those in this country. If the Taoiseach has the Taoiseach firmed up his view in respect of concludes the negotiations for a constitutional the central problem of qualified majority voting? treaty before the end of June, when will the Irish How does he expect this issue to evolve? Does people have an opportunity to debate in full both he, for instance, plan additional meetings with the the issue and its far-reaching implications and Polish Prime Minister in view of the incoming vote on them in a referendum? Has there been Spanish Prime Minister’s statements that he any discussion at EU leadership level of whether would like Spain to be more integrated with the same right will be given to the people of Europe and will adopt a more conciliatory Europe generally, in other words, to have a approach to majority voting? common popular referendum in every country in In respect of his Presidency of the European the EU on what by any standards is a far-reaching Union and the seriously worsening crisis in Iraq, development within the Union? does the Taoiseach share the view that in many cases the Palestinian-Israeli problem is an alibi The Taoiseach: The short answer to the first for terrorism in surrounding countries? In his question is “yes”. The action of the Spanish capacity as President of the European Union, people on the Friday night in Madrid, throughout does he expect to raise with the United States Spain and in cities throughout the world where President the issue of returning to the blueprint there are Spanish people, including this city and for peace which was published following the many other cities throughout Ireland, was to meeting in the Azores? 547 Ceisteanna — 6 April 2004. Questions 548

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy’s second difficulties. The Naples document was published question may be more appropriate to the next but it was never discussed at the European group of questions. Council. Therefore, one can never take it there was agreement on those issues. That complicates The Taoiseach: Since my remarks in response things further. It took us some time in January to Deputy Kenny last Thursday, I have spoken to to try to figure out the Italian position and each the Polish Prime Minister again to try to make member state’s understanding of the Italian progress. I am conscious he will leave office in position. I am not blaming anybody for the less than a month and there is still considerable process because it was a pointless exercise. The uncertainty about what will happen afterwards. starting position was not the position that was While there are divergent views on the matter, it portrayed when there were only four items and could be some time before a new Prime Minister that is the difficulty. I am now clear on takes office and it is not clear exactly how that everybody’s understanding but there is no process will work out. I went through matters agreement on that. All of those items, as the with the Prime Minister with whom I am due to Deputy stated, are still in play and not agreed by speak again before the end of this week. I have anyone. Then there are the other big items, and put some proposals to him, including proposals we are clear on those. from the Council secretariat that have been in the Another complication, which I already public domain. mentioned in the forum the other day, is that I am not due to meet the incoming Spanish while much of the consultation was carried out in Prime Minister until he assumes office. I have January and February, three new prime ministers been in contact with him but it is not appropriate attended the last European Council meeting and from his point of view to have a formal meeting two others attended for the last time. Since I until he takes office. I hope to do have such a carried out the consultation in January and meeting and I will continue to explore the issues. February, a fifth of the Council has changed, There is still an extensive divergence of views which makes life a bit difficult. within the political system in Poland, depending on whom one talks to or what one reads. One Mr. Rabbitte: That is something which rarely cannot know at this stage what will happen after happens in this country. the election of the new Prime Minister. Prime Minister Miller has been very helpful — he The Taoiseach: I hope it does not happen in cannot read what will happen either — and both the middle of the Presidency. he and the President are trying as best they can to help the Presidency. I will return to the other Mr. J. Bruton: It happened in the middle of the issue the Deputy raised. last Presidency, unfortunately. That was a big mistake.

Mr. Rabbitte: In terms of what the Taoiseach The Taoiseach: I think the Deputy can described as the key outstanding issues, is it appreciate how that makes things slightly correct to assume that whatever their nature at different. With regard to ratification, the Polish the end of the Italian Presidency, these issues situation worries me. I am trying to deal with a remain but that there is a mood to move towards prime minister who is sincerely trying to be conclusion, and that it is not the case that some helpful. Unfortunately, this is not a clear process. of the issues in question have been disposed of My major concern is to have a Polish already? Assuming he will be successful in Government with which I can deal. Ratification concluding a treaty, and I hope he will be, what takes between 18 months and two years. The are the Taoiseach’s views on the process of forum urged that we do not rush it and have a ratification? Does he consider it likely that a period of consultation. To answer the Deputy’s referendum will be held this year? question directly, I do not think it will be ratified I have a question on a specific key outstanding in 2004. issue. In his capacity as representative of Ireland as distinct from his role of President of all Mr. Rabbitte: What about the Commission? Europeans, as my colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, describes it, what is the Taoiseach’s The Taoiseach: I have long held a view that the attitude to the retention of a Commissioner by all each member state should still have one member states? Commissioner. This should continue for quite a while, some have mentioned 2012 or maybe even The Taoiseach: In reply to the Deputy’s first 2014. Ultimately, my own personal view is that it question, the difficulty with the way the Council will change. The IGC group already consists of meeting ended in December was that many of the 27 members. Some countries are debating issues discussed from 5 October onwards were whether they should join, some countries have not tabled or discussed at the Council meeting. made their applications. Norway and Switzerland The issues addressed at bilateral and trilateral will review the situation again over the next few meetings involving the Italians and many other years. We are going to end up with a European member states, particularly in November, were Union of over 30 member states. How many never tabled. People had concerns, problems and more than 30 is a debate for the future. I hope it 549 Ceisteanna — 6 April 2004. Questions 550 does not go too much further than 30. Having 30 on Kyoto. The Minister for the Environment, or more Commissioners would be unwieldy and I Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, support a small Commission as long as there is has been pressing very much at the other Council strict equality of rotation. Some have said 18, meeting the idea that we must proceed and that others have said 15, but I do not have any we should not be waiting to see what will happen difficulty as long as there is strict equality of in the United States or dwelling on its concerns rotation. It looks like we will wait another decade about what will happen in Russia. From an before that decision is made. God knows what overall economic and environmental point of decision an IGC may make on that issue. view, I would rather see the United States and Russia make the appropriate decisions. That is an Mr. Sargent: I share in the sympathy expressed issue we will be raising with both the US and by him and others to all the relatives of those who Russia in both our summits from an EU point of died and were injured in the Madrid atrocities. In view. It is a key issue on which to try to press light of that and following the visit by the them. Taoiseach to America during the St. Patrick’s I can assure the Deputy that we are continuing festival, did the Taoiseach discuss security to state what the responsibilities are. I made it arrangements for the visit of President George W. very clear to the employers that I do not think it Bush? Were non-Irish security measures a good tactic for them, irrespective of discussed, particularly with regard to the US 3 o’clock the arguments we are making, to airforce? defer these decisions to the second block, which is the block from 2008 to 2012. I An Ceann Comhairle: That question does not stated they would do much better to make the arise in this group of questions. It will arise in the policy decisions early on and phase it in because next group. they will not escape it. As Deputy Sargent knows, there is an inclination to defer decision making Mr. Sargent: The 46 questions were pretty but we have been indicating to the employers that comprehensive. this is the wrong thing to do. We have made this very clear in both the workshops at the Davos An Ceann Comhairle: Yes, but there is another World Economic Forum and at the full meeting, group of questions following that group, to which where I met the executives of all the employers’ the Deputy’s question would be more groups of all 15 countries. appropriate. ´ Mr. Sargent: Allow me, a Cheann Comhairle, Caoimhghı´nOCaola´in: When the Taoiseach to move on to the Lisbon Agenda. The Taoiseach met the president of the Union of Industrial and mentioned the stepping up of its implementation. Employers’ Confederations of Europe, did he In light of his meeting with the Union of raise the issue of trade union recognition? Does Industrial and Employers’ Confederations of he recognise that this issue is of growing concern Europe and given that he spoke about in Ireland, the rest of Europe and globally? sustainability, does he regard the Kyoto Protocol Effectively, trade unions are being pushed out of as being subject to a cost benefit analysis from the workplace and employees are being denied the point of view of the Lisbon Agenda? Given their basic right of representation by trade that he talked about sustainable growth rather unions. Does the Taoiseach agree that while the than sustainability per se, will he state whether right to membership of trade unions may be the Lisbon Agenda is to supersede the targeting covered in law, it is rendered null and void if of the Kyoto Protocol? I ask this because in his employers refuse to recognise the union as the address at the Davos World Economic Forum in body that represents workers and negotiates on January, he did not refer too much to the goals their behalf? Did the Taoiseach discuss this issue of the EU summit in Gothenburg in 2001. Is he with the president of the employer’s purposely leaving these out? When he mentions confederation? As President of the EU, does he the environment, he mentions it once and in the have plans to launch any initiative in the course context of business environment. of the Irish Presidency to improve the situation Will the Taoiseach take the opportunity to talk and to address the difficulties with trade unions about corporate responsibility and the failure of and the employer’s confederation to copperfasten the Millennium Declaration, which established union recognition? goals on health, education, security and human I join other Deputies in expressing once again rights to be reached by 2015? Will this be part of my abhorrence and that of my party at the the agenda the Taoiseach is setting for the EU Madrid atrocities. Does the Taoiseach agree that Presidency on behalf of Ireland or is it to be left the subsequent result of the Spanish general out intentionally? election was indicative of a rejection by the Spanish people of the Aznar Government’s spin The Taoiseach: The Lisbon Agenda is based on and, I suppose, deception during the war in Iraq the economy and social and environmental issues. and following the bombings in Madrid when it I agree that the Gothenburg conclusions are parts sought to lay the blame at another’s door? Does of that. My second meeting with the employers he believe that in his capacity as EU President — the one prior to the Council — was very much and from his experience of the Irish peace 551 Ceisteanna — 6 April 2004. Questions 552

[Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in.] majority voting on crime, will ensure the process, he now has an opportunity to deadlock on this matter will continue for the next recommend to the new Spanish Government that five to ten years? it address the Basque-Spanish conflict through an On the voting issue, in the event that the inclusive dialogue, the opportunity of people Dublin majority formula cannot be a solution, having the right to freely express their positions will the Taoiseach consider examining the and through exploring the resolution of the formula used for allocating seats in the European difficulties that are clearly there by the same Parliament as a basis for weighting votes in a means as we have sought to address our age-old single majority system in the Council, namely, conflict? Does he agree that must also include the degressive proportionality? Is he aware of unbanning of political parties so that an inclusive mathematical studies which show how degressive process can get under way? proportionality could be used as a comprehensive weighting system which could be incorporated in The Taoiseach: At European level, union the treaty, which would not have the difficulties recognition is not a major item on the agenda. that the Dublin majority has, which would be Countries have different positions, both automatic every time there was enlargement and constitutional and legal, and have different which would not require a fundamental operational ways of working it, so it has not been renegotiation? Will the Taoiseach examine a big issue. The rights of members has been an degressive proportionality, which the Convention issue as has the issue of negotiation which has has already agreed to with the parliament, being been the issue here and with which the Ta´naiste used as a way of breaking the deadlock in regard has been dealing. to the Council weighting? On the Spanish issue, I am sure people will reflect for some time on what happened in the The Taoiseach: On the role of the counter- remaining days of the last government. It is not terrorism co-ordinator, the EU high something on which I will dwell. It would be good representative, Javier Solana, has appointed Gjis and useful if there could be an overall, peaceful de Vries to the role of terrorism co-ordinator. He settlement to the Basque question. As a first step will be a central figure who will work with the to that, if people were to move away from all Council secretariat and Mr. Solana. He will be forms of violence, it would help. Mr. Aznar has the central figure in taking forward the measures been a hard fighter against ETA for many years, agreed at the European Council. His key task will and he expressed his views on this. I suppose he be to ensure co-ordination between the different had good reason to be since ETA almost killed him. That helps to focus the mind and he has bodies, including Europol, Eurojust, the member continued to take a strong line. There seems to states and the institutions in implementing a be some indication of efforts to try to establish a comprehensive EU strategy to combat terrorism. ceasefire, reach a peaceful solution and to move He will be delegated the power and authority to on. That would be helpful but it is a matter for try to co-ordinate the effort. The difficulties the incoming Spanish Government to try to make identified in the past is that people sign up to do progress, as Mr. Aznar has worked hard to do something, not just because of qualified majority over the years. voting, and then they do not get on with it. He will try to co-ordinate the effort, which is not Mr. J. Bruton: In regard to the role of Gijs de being done at present. His primary role will be Vries, who is to be the EU terrorism co- as an internal co-ordinator. There will also be an ordinator, how exactly will his functions fit in important external dimension to ensure the EU with those currently exercised by Europol and counter-terrorism priorities in political dialogue Eurjust? Will he have any authority over those with third countries and international bodies or over whom will he have authority? Is organisations are consistent with the priorities in this just an appointment for the sake of one in the internal fight. the wake of an atrocity? It is not true to say that the Tampere agenda On the battle against terrorism, does the has not been implemented. A significant amount Taoiseach agree that progress has been extremely of that agenda has been completed. One of the slow in terms of passing legislation following the initiatives of the Irish Presidency is to draw up a decisions he took at the Tampere summit in 1999 report on what has been implemented of the on the battle against cross-border crime? Does action programme. Part of it relates to what was he agree one of the reasons progress has been done at the spring European Council and another extremely slow is because of the insistence on to what we must do going forward. I agree with continued unanimity by his Government and Deputy Bruton that the unanimity issue has others on these matters and that as a result, we delayed matters. I do not think there is a chance have not been able to live up to the Tampere of the Italian proposal being agreed to. It was a agenda which the Taoiseach and others set as far good try but I do not think it will work. I have back as 1999? Does he agree that the proposal in indicated strongly everywhere that we must be the Italian Presidency compromise to introduce more forthcoming in this regard because the an emergency break, which would neuter the Deputy is correct in his analysis that we will not proposals of the Convention on qualified make the necessary progress. 553 Priority 6 April 2004. Questions 554

On the weighted voting system, I will consider As a result, I am considering how this what Deputy Bruton said. We have considered development should progress, in view of the many suggestions. This is not a crystal clear issue Government’s commitment to provide a new but I believe the debate is an acceptance of the home for the national theatre and of the critical double majority principle. There may have to be importance of this development to national some variation of the issue to reach a final cultural life. resolution. While people accept the double majority principle, there are a range of Mr. Kenny: I support the Minister for Arts, arguments, including issues such as percentages, Sport and Tourism in this matter. The the number in the blocking minority and replacement of the Abbey Theatre as a national population levels. The numbers being mentioned institution is a priority and should be a national range from 12% to 25% of the population and project. Will the Minister confirm the decision two to four countries. There is not an agreed not to go ahead with a redevelopment on the position on the matter, particularly from Poland existing site? and Spain, which continues to be a problem. I am The Office of Public Works and the Abbey examining some of the initiatives—— Theatre project teams worked together and produced a blueprint of the theatre’s Mr. J. Bruton: Proportionality might be easier requirements. That design could fit into the for Poland and Spain to accept. Carlton site, depending on how much ground is made available. There is a court case related to The Taoiseach: It could be. The major that at present and the Minister cannot indicate difficulty they have is that they continue to think the outcome at this stage but is it one of the negatively and the only issue they consider is locations that is being considered? Are other their ability to block. Going forward with the new locations in the Dublin docklands or on a constitution, it is very difficult to get them to see greenfield site being considered? Is the Minister that they should be looking at the positive aspects happy with the agreed blueprint of requirements and how to move forward. The whole debate with produced by the Office of Public Works and the both countries centres around their ability to Abbey Theatre project team in terms of the needs block. Smaller countries do not look at it in that of the Abbey Theatre as the national theatre? way, they look at making the system work. I have said at Council, at press conferences and straight Mr. O’Donoghue: It is agreed that the new to the countries that this is an entirely negative theatre must be a signature development that is way of proceeding. We must try to find a reflective of a national theatre in the 21st century resolution and I will look at what the Deputy and that it should be in an appropriate civic suggests. setting and form part of the overall urban regeneration represented by the O’Connell Street integrated area plan and the north-east inner city Priority Questions. plan. Clearly, three significant enlarged auditoria are required, as are a dedicated education and ———— outreach facility, a publicly accessible archive, a restaurant and bar, public areas, disabled access Abbey Theatre. for audiences and artists, best practice theatre 137. Mr. Kenny asked the Minister for Arts, production facilities and a third multi-purpose Sport and Tourism if a final decision has been space outside the significantly enlarged auditoria. reached regarding the refurbishment of the A theatre on the present Abbey Theatre site national theatre on its present site, in view of the would be extremely problematic and, in those difficulties being encountered in acquiring the circumstances, it appears there will be little necessary additional property adjacent to the alternative other than to look elsewhere. In this existing site; and if he will make a statement on context, the Carlton cinema site will have to be the matter. [10663/04] viewed as an option but that will become clearer after judgment has been given in the High Court Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. hearing into Dublin City Council’s CPO. O’Donoghue): On foot of Government decisions of 19 February 2002 and 29 January 2003, the Mr. Kenny: I am glad the Minister has Office of Public Works has carried out a confirmed that it is not intended to proceed with preliminary assessment of the property problematic acquisitions on the existing site — acquisition issues arising in the context of that is progress. I visited the Abbey Theatre last redeveloping the national theatre at its existing week with Deputy Deenihan and, to put it mildly, location via a public private partnership. This the facilities, space and entire area are totally assessment indicates that the acquisition of outdated, outmoded and antiquated. I property which would be essential for compliment the 100 or so staff on their work in redevelopment at the existing location could be promoting out national culture. The backstage very costly and time-consuming. Redevelopment and upstairs of the building are too cramped, at the existing location would thus appear to be crowded, damp, dark and unfit. In that context, I problematic. support the Minister’s view. 555 Priority 6 April 2004. Questions 556

[Mr. Kenny.] An Ceann Comhairle: I appreciate that but six The centenary of the founding of the Abbey minutes are allocated for a Priority Question. As Theatre will be 27 December. Will the Minister the Deputy is a party leader, he was allowed two arrange for talks to resume between the OPW, minutes extra. In fairness to other Deputies in his Department and the Abbey Theatre to update the House—— the necessary requirements for a national theatre of which we can be justly proud in this Mr. Kenny: It is grossly unfair. centenary year? I do not want the Minister to prejudice the Mr. O’Donoghue: I assure Deputy Kenny that court case but does he have a personal preference every effort will be made to advance the matter. for the theatre to be placed in a city centre, for example, on O’Connell Street, given the three Tourism Industry. high standard criteria he has laid down or is he 138. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Arts, willing to look at a greenfield site, for example, Sport and Tourism his views on figures recently in the docklands area? released by the Central Statistics Office that for the first time the amount being spent overseas by Mr. O’Donoghue: There is general recognition Irish persons exceeded the amount spent here by that a national theatre should be a signature tourists; if, in light of these statistics, he has plans development. Most people would prefer to see to encourage Irish persons to holiday here; and if the new national theatre in the centre of the city. he will make a statement on the matter. In this regard, the plans for the rejuvenation and [10662/04] regeneration of O’Connell Street come to mind. 139. Mr. Gogarty asked the Minister for Arts, It is clear that, despite our living in one of the Sport and Tourism the trends he has identified most imaginative and creative generations of in the latest tourism and travel figures from the Irish people, there is no architectural public Central Statistics Office; his views on whether the expression of that creativity or imagination and underlying trend still leaves cause for concern for this project presents the opportunity to do the Irish tourism sector; and if he will make a precisely that. I sincerely hope that an adequate statement on the matter. [10838/04] site becomes available — in the city centre preferably — because that is what most people Mr. O’Donoghue: I propose to take Questions desire. It would contribute greatly to the Nos. 138 and 139 together. rejuvenation of O’Connell Street, which is The most up-to-date CSO statistics for 2003 something everyone regards as desirable. show a 5% increase in the number of overseas However, we are faced with the difficulty of visitors to Ireland, representing a continuing acquiring a site. It is clear from the OPW’s report recovery in this vital sector of the economy. In that there are serious problems in regard to the numerical terms, visitor numbers have exceeded present Abbey Theatre site in respect of cost and the previous peak achieved in 2000, with 6.3 time. In those circumstances, as I indicated earlier million visits recorded. In conjunction with the growth in volume terms, revenue earnings grew to Deputy Kenny, it will be necessary to look \ elsewhere and the Department is doing that. The by just under 3%, at over 4 billion. Carlton cinema site is one option but the outcome As the Deputy rightly points out, 2003 showed a marginal net outflow of earnings on the tourism of a reserve judgment from the High Court is \ awaited. and travel account of 58 million. This is hardly surprising as expenditure by Irish tourists on holidays overseas has been on an upward trend Mr. Kenny: One final question—— as a result of the greater prosperity experienced by Irish people in recent years. This greater An Ceann Comhairle: Sorry, Deputy Kenny, prosperity has also provided a major boost to we have spent eight minutes on this question and, Ireland’s domestic tourism market, which in fairness to other Deputies—— remains central to Ireland’s continuing tourism success. A separate CSO release — the Mr. Kenny: In fairness to the national household travel survey — indicates that more theatre—— than 5 million domestic trips were taken in the first nine months of last year, representing an An Ceann Comhairle: I call Question No. 138 increase of 3.4% on the same period in 2002. In in the name of Deputy Wall. expenditure terms, the first nine months of 2003 have also shown very positive results. Between Mr. Kenny: This is most unfair. January and September, more than \745 million was spent on domestic trips in comparison with An Ceann Comhairle: The Chair has been \645 million in the same period in 2002. This more than generous to Deputy Kenny. represents a substantial increase of 16%, which far outstrips the growth in expenditure by Irish Mr. Kenny: The national theatre has existed for people on foreign holidays, at 5%, last year. 100 years and I am just looking for an extra 30 While the two surveys are not directly seconds. comparable, they provide a strong indication that 557 Priority 6 April 2004. Questions 558 the home market remains buoyant and continues longer and travel more extensively on the island to win market share against stiff international of Ireland. competition. In terms of other trends emerging The marketing programmes in train for 2004 from the CSO figures on international travel, I will build on the momentum generated in 2003, would make a number of comments. As a tourism both on the international and domestic front. destination for overseas visitors, Ireland They are also being backed by an unprecedented continues to out-perform many of its nearest level of Exchequer support for tourism services competitors. within my Department, particularly for marketing The Iraq war, the outbreak of SARS and a purposes, totalling well over \110 million. weak global economy all played a part in suppressing the demand for international tourism Mr. Wall: I welcome the figures the Minister last year. Worldwide, the number of tourists fell highlighted today, which demonstrate that by 1.2% and Europe’s performance was at best despite difficult times on the international scene, flat, according to the World Tourism tourism has done well in Ireland. The number of Organisation. With growth rates of 5% in volume visits by Irish people living abroad has dropped terms, Ireland is clearly increasing its share of a compared with the number of foreigners visiting highly competitive marketplace. Ireland. It will take several years before we know It is also apparent that the North American if that is a once-off statistic or represents a trend. market, particularly the US, has finally turned the What research has been done by the Department corner with numbers beginning to rise again. US or by agencies under its aegis in this aspect of the visitor numbers to Ireland increased by over 6% tourism industry? in 2003 despite the impact of the war, increased Recently released figures show that 4.5 million threats of terrorism and SARS. This compares to of the 6.37 million foreign visitors to Ireland a 1% increase in the number of Americans come from Britain or through Britain. This visiting Europe generally and a decrease of 8% represents a major proportion of the tourism experienced by Britain. trade. Has a breakdown of that 4.5 million figure Continental Europe, a market which has been done? Do these visitors consist of Irish remained stagnant for a number of years, is also families returning home for annual holidays or looking positive with visitor numbers up in the world travellers who come through Britain to order of 8%. A 4% growth figure for Britain last Ireland and continue to another destination? year was also a strong endorsement of Ireland’s How much time do these visitors spend in continuing competitive edge in what is Ireland’s Ireland? This group, 4.5 million, represents a largest tourism market by far. It is also clear that large proportion of the overall figure of 6.37 this performance has been hard won, with million. enormous pressure being placed on the industry’s Regional development will be a major factor bottomline. It is also evident that this in the tourism industry. What influence can the performance has not been shared equally, either Minister bring to bear on other Departments, on a regional or a sectoral basis. I am very such as the Department of Transport, or State conscious of growing concerns about the regional agencies to ensure that the regions are developed distribution of tourism growth in recent years. It more equally that at present? should be recognised that all regions and sectors continue to experience growth — the issue relates Mr. O’Donoghue: My Department, as well as to the growing disparity in the rate of growth other Departments and State agencies, must rely between the regions. on the figures we receive from the Central In this context, the development of good Statistics Office. The compilation of these figures access, particularly air access, is key to is subject to the same criteria each year so they strengthening the competitive position of the are comparable, year on year. It is clear from regions. Both tourism agencies recognise this these figures that last year saw a record number issue and are investing significant time and of visitors to Ireland, something everyone will resources in encouraging improved air links. welcome. This is indicative of the resilience of the Already, Knock and Galway airports are reaping industry. Credit is due to the tourism agencies, to the rewards of their efforts to promote direct the industry itself and to the Government, which access to the west, particularly from Britain. increased the marketing fund for tourism to its highest level ever. This money was well spent, not Additional information not given on the floor of only in traditional markets but on the Continent, the House where we saw major increases in the number of Tourism Ireland has also taken a strategic visitors from non-traditional places such as decision to target significant promotional France, Italy and Spain. These were particularly resources at family touring holidays, particularly encouraging. from Britain, which favour the regions. Tourism The related question of access is extremely Ireland is also investing significantly in the US important and the growth in low cost travel to market. The coach tour business will continue to Ireland has been a direct contributor to the feature strongly in their promotions and they will increase in numbers from the continent. I would also be encouraging the growing number of like to see greater capacity from the continent independent travellers from the US to spend and, particularly, greater air capacity from North 559 Priority 6 April 2004. Questions 560

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] Mr. O’Donoghue: Between 2002 and 2003 America. If capacity from the United States were there was an increase in the number of bed nights improved the numbers would rise almost in in hotels, guest houses, bed and breakfast parallel. One of the major difficulties experienced establishments, rented houses and apartments, last year was the lack of capacity, particularly caravans, campsites and hostels. All the indices of during the peak season. If we can increase the number of visitors from our various markets, capacity we will increase numbers. and the revenue from each of them, have shown The Government’s target is to increase the an increase. None has shown a decrease. That is number of visitors to 10 million by the year 2012 the good news. During the year 2003, against a and to double revenue during the same period. If very difficult backdrop, Ireland experienced a we continue to see growth figures similar to those record year. of last year, and which we anticipate this year, The fact that stays were of a shorter duration these targets are capable of being realised. and money was not as plentiful led to a greater degree of pressure on profit margins. Some hotels, for example, had to drop their prices in Mr. Gogarty: What does the Minister believe \ order to attract visitors and some hotels found to be the cause of the net outflow of 58 million themselves in competition with guest houses. All when earnings from visitors to Ireland are of that is accurate and margins were tighter. None compared with money spent by Irish people of that can mask the fact that we had an travelling abroad? If the Minister were improvement against a difficult backdrop, that we responsible for trade and employment this are anticipating further improvement this year reversal of fortune would be deeply embarrassing and that we are expecting a record year. to him. Given the global economic uncertainty of As regards developing tourism in the midlands recent years, which is being exacerbated by the and other regions, the tourism development policies of certain governments, what is the group has examined applications from less Minister’s view of the drop in the number of stays traditional areas of the country with a view to in hotels, guest houses and bed and breakfast allocating funds to improve amenities. The establishments by British visitors between 2002 allocation of these funds is ongoing. The Deputy and 2003? The only increase of note was in the might care to address the matter of the western number of British visitors who stayed with friends rail corridor to the Minister for Transport. When and relatives. Does the Minister agree that our addressing the question of the number of visitors cousins in Britain are visiting friends and relatives travelling from Ireland abroad, it must be recalled for a cheap holiday because they have been that Ireland is a more prosperous country today priced out of the market? Hotels and guest than it was ten years ago. An increase in the houses are too expensive and are seen as a rip- number of foreign visits by Irish people is off. The same is true of our European neighbours. expected as a natural consequence of more Possibly because long-term package holidays prosperous times. The substantial increase in the include stays in hotels, the rise in prices is not so number of domestic trips taken by Irish people is encouraging. An increase of \100 million in noticeable to visitors from the United States and \ Canada. However, in areas where discernment is revenue in a short period from 645 million to \745 million is encouraging. significant, such as caravanning, camping and Regarding the allegation about “rip-off hostelling, numbers from the USA, Canada and Ireland”, I do not subscribe to that theory. I have other areas have also declined. Conditions appear continually warned the tourism industry of the to be returning to normality in the global age of need to remain competitive and I have repeatedly terror in which we live. Nevertheless, does the advised it of the necessity to give value for Minister acknowledge that major structural money. It is a tough world and competition is change must be carried out in the tourism becoming tougher by the day. It would be foolish industry to ensure that quality sustainable to kill the goose that lays the golden egg. tourism business comes to Ireland and that the Nonetheless, it must be pointed out that in excess rip-off mentality is stamped out. of 90% of visitors to the country still express What is being done to exploit the potential of satisfaction with the holiday experience here, the midlands? The ecological sustainability of although, on the other side of that coin, it must tourism on the western seaboard is being be admitted that, in a few years, the number of damaged by ongoing development and by traffic people questioning the value for money which jams in places such as Clifden. Tourism growth in they have received has increased from one third the midlands would not infringe on the industry’s to two thirds of total foreigner visitors. That is a long-term potential. matter of concern. The need to be vigilant must Has the Minister had further discussions with be clear to everyone. his Cabinet colleagues regarding the feasibility of the western rail corridor? If more US and Arts Plan. Canadian visitors come to Ireland they will 140. Mr. English asked the Minister for Arts, probably come through Shannon or Knock. If Sport and Tourism if he has received a report they are to proceed to further destinations in from the chairperson of the Arts Council Ireland such a rail route will be necessary. regarding the scrapping of the Arts Plan 2002- 561 Priority 6 April 2004. Questions 562

2006, which was included in the Programme for Mr. O’Donoghue: Every Department must in Government 2002-2007; and if he will make a each given year make its case for funding and statement on the matter. [10664/04] then the Department and the Minister concerned must cut its cloth in accordance with the measure. Mr. O’Donoghue: The Arts Plan 2002-2006 was The funding for the Arts Council in 2004 was prepared by the Arts Council and the substantially increased over 2003. The increase Government had no part in its formulation. The was 19% and the argument could be made that, council sought Government adoption of the plan \ if the Arts Council had decided to proceed with that required funding of 314 million over the the arts plan, it would have had a sufficiency of period of the plan. The Government was happy funding to proceed with the portion which was to endorse the general objectives of the plan, appropriate to the year 2004. However, the views namely, to make an arts career a realistic of various experts outside the Arts Council are of ambition for excellent and innovative artists; to little consequence. broaden and enhance audiences for the arts; to The Arts Council is charged under the new raise standards in arts leadership and Arts Act with the administration of the arts on management; to broaden and enrich participation an independent basis. It is not my function nor in the arts; to extend the international impact and the function of any expert to tell the Arts Council success of Irish arts and artists; and to work with how it should or should not proceed. It is not others to help bring the arts closer to local possible for me or anyone else to tell the Arts communities. Council who or what it should or should not fund. However, our financial system, based on an In the same way, the Arts Council makes a annual Estimates cycle cannot accommodate the decision about its own arts plan. It is independent multi-annual financial commitment for which the in the exercise of that function. It made a decision arts plan called. For the Government’s part, the that it would proceed in a different direction. phasing of the plan and the funding that could When the Arts Act was discussed in the Houses be provided in any given year would have to be of the Oireachtas, the Opposition made much addressed through the normal annual Estimates play of the fact that it was necessary, in so far as campaigns. There could never be any guarantee that was possible, to maintain the independence of funding being provided to meet the specific of the Arts Council. That is a position to which I annual targets included in the plan by the Arts subscribe and that is the situation. Council. Government endorsement of the broad objectives of the plan cannot restrict or constrain Mr. English: The arts plan is about policy- the council from changing or setting aside any making. The Minister said there was an increase part of its own plan. in funding in 2004 over 2003. The funding in 2003 was less than that in 2002, which was a general Mr. English: In 2002 the then Minister and now election year. I wondered what was the reason Minister of State, Deputy de Valera, fully for that. The impression was given that proper endorsed the plan and gave the impression that funding would be provided, but that did not funding would be available. Does the Minister happen. The Minister said it does not have any think the arts plan was scrapped because of the consequences, but that is not the case. There was Government’s neglect to provide sufficient a plan, but now there is none. How will funding funding? The Arts Council hoped to be allocated be allocated this year and the following year? \53 million in 2003, but received only \44 million, which is approximately 83% of what was An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy expected. In 2004 the plan was to be allocated should be brief. \61 million but received only \53 million, which is 85% of what was expected. It will not be Mr. English: We do not know what criteria will possible to implement the plan. Questions were apply for funding. That is not good for the arts asked at the council meetings about how the plan sector which had a plan and a future. It does not could be supported when it was not working. It know what will happen now. I await the was not working due to a lack of funding. The Minister’s response. Government failed in that regard. The arts plan was scrapped because of the Government’s Mr. O’Donoghue: The Arts Council is more neglect. I would like to hear the Minister’s than capable of carrying out its own functions comments on that. Would the director still be in without looking for advice from me and it has not place if the plan had been given proper support sought any from me. The Arts Council is and if it had been funded by the Government? independent in the exercise of its function and Did we let her down? there are a number of good reasons for that, not least the question as to whether there could or Mr. O’Donoghue: As Deputy English will be would be political interference in the arts world. aware, Governments do not operate on a multi- Some people would regard that as undesirable. annual Estimates basis. We sought to avoid that, in so far as it was reasonably possible, when framing the Arts Act Mr. English: That was not the impression given 2003. I have every confidence in the Arts Council at the time. to frame policy and to bring forward solid 563 Other 6 April 2004. Questions 564

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] performers who wish to exhibit or perform suggestions to advance the cause of the arts and abroad. An amount of \700,000 is available for artists in this country. My confidence in the Arts distribution this year. I am considering how best Council is 100%. I have no doubt it will serve the to promote the international arts into the future cause well and I have no reason to believe it will and an examination of the options available is not do so. currently under way. The cultural programme associated with the Irish Presidency of the EU, An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That concludes with the festival of Irish art and culture in China Priority Questions. We will now take other taking place this year, are both being managed by questions. I remind the House that my Department and will provide significant supplementary questions and answers are subject opportunities to showcase and promote Irish to a maximum of one minute each. arts abroad. In the area of traditional arts, I have arranged Other Questions. for the appointment of a special committee to advise the Arts Council on supports for the ———— traditional arts. This committee is to report to the council by September next. Promotion of the Arts. Mr. Durkan: That is an interesting reply, 141. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, particularly given that a number of my questions Sport and Tourism his Department’s plans for the have been refused on the basis that the Minister promotion of the arts, whether directly or has no official responsibility to the House. Who through other agencies; and if he will make a initiates policy on the arts? When I put down a statement on the matter. [10572/04] question about whether the Minister would meet Mr. O’Donoghue: The principal agency the promoters of the Anna Livia International through which the arts are promoted is the Arts Opera Festival, I was again told that the Minister Council. The most fundamental tenet of had no responsibility. If the Minister initiates Government policy is that financial support for policy — his reply indicates that he does — and the arts is channelled through the Arts Council, if he wishes to promote the most suitable policy, which is independent in the context of the would it not be in the interests of both the disbursement of its funds. This will continue to be Minister and the Arts Council that the Minister the case and I am delighted that I was able to meet those who are interested in promoting the secure an increase in 2004 of 19% on the 2003 various forms of the arts? figure, bringing the council’s allocation in 2004 to \52.5 million. I will, of course, continue to argue Mr. O’Donoghue: My door has been open to the case for the best possible funding for the meet people involved in the arts and I have met promotion of the arts. a considerable number of groups and people over The areas in which my Department has a more the past year and ten months. There can be no direct role include the provision of grant aid for question about that. arts and cultural infrastructure. My Department’s With regard to policy funding and so forth, access scheme provides for grants of \45.71 there can be no question of the Government million to the promoters of 44 projects around being in a position to direct the Arts Council as the country. The scheme is designed to lead to to who or what it should or should not fund. That the provision of high standard arts and culture would be entirely contrary to the spirit and letter infrastructure and covers three strands: new of the Arts Act 2003. There is limited provision facilities; redevelopment of existing arts and in that Act for the Minister to direct the Arts culture facilities; and smaller community based Council to implement Government policy. projects. Particular emphasis was placed on However, that power was intended to be community based projects and 17 such projects exercised exceedingly sparingly. It would apply, are among those approved. for example, if there were neglect of the This scheme will lead to greater participation in disadvantaged or the disabled or in other such the arts with a greater number of facilities being cases. However, neglect of that nature by the Arts provided on a broad geographic basis. It is Council is not envisaged. expected that the scheme will also result in the It is the function of the Minister of the day to creation of direct and indirect employment in the direct the Arts Council to appoint a special arts and in the local economy generally. The committee to deal with any facet of the arts and scheme will lead to the input of almost \58.4 for that body to give advice to the Arts Council. million into arts capital infrastructure, taking into However, that is a far cry from the Minister account matching funding being provided by dictating daily policy to the Arts Council. project promoters. The projects range from the provision of new museums and new integrated art Mr. Durkan: I am not certain what the Minister centres to the refurbishment of existing means. He has complicated his first reply with his performance spaces. next. Is he suggesting that he does not direct The cultural relations committee advises me on policy but takes policy directives from the Arts financial assistance for Irish artists and Council or does he direct policy? 565 Other 6 April 2004. Questions 566

Mr. O’Donoghue: The Arts Council formulates to appoint a special committee. In this context, policy. It decided, for example, that it would not Deputy Keaveney’s question is appropriate. proceed with the third arts plan, 2002-06. That is Appointing special committees is a reserved entirely a decision-—— function in the legislation. I directed the Arts Council to appoint a special committee to advise Mr. Durkan: The council decided. the Arts Council on the traditional arts, with the instruction that it report to the Arts Council by Mr. O’Donoghue: Yes, the Arts Council autumn this year at the latest. The Arts Council decided it. will be expected to implement the policy of the committee on the traditional arts, which will then Mr. English: It was because it was not funded be stood down. I have given consideration to a by the Government. special committee to deal with the issue of education and the arts. It is something in which Mr. O’Donoghue: This is an argument the I have a particular interest because I agree with Opposition correctly made during the debate on Deputy Keaveney’s sentiment that if young the Arts Act and I agree with it, that the broad people’s creative processes are to be nurtured policy of the Arts Council should be a matter for and encouraged, it should happen at the earliest the Arts Council. However, there are specific possible time. The formative years are best. exceptions to that rule and I have outlined them. However, I do not wish to have a number of special committees sitting at the same time as it Mr. Durkan: The Minister has no function at is preferable to concentrate on one area at a time. all. Nevertheless, I sincerely hope that in the near future there will be a special committee on Mr. O’Donoghue: I have. education and the arts.

Mr. Durkan: The Minister is redundant. National Stadium. Mr. English: His function is cutting funding. 142. Mr. Sargent asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if a departmental monitoring Mr. Durkan: The Minister has no function and team has been appointed to oversee the no role to play. Can he get permission from the construction of the proposed national stadium at Arts Council to answer questions in the House? Lansdowne Road; and, if not, the timescale envisaged for its establishment. [10616/04] An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Order, please. The time for this question is almost exhausted. 145. Mr. Coveney asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the work schedule for the new Mr. Wall: Does the Minister have concerns stadium at Lansdowne Road, including the about touring groups being able to visit theatres possible commencement and completion dates; throughout the country? Many of them are and if he will make a statement on the matter. finding it difficult to put on shows. The touring [10629/04] groups are not in a financial position to deal with 160. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for this problem. Can the Minister do anything to Arts, Sport and Tourism the plans that have been overcome the problems such groups are finalised for the development of the Landsdowne encountering? We have the facilities but we do Road stadium; and the cost and timeframe not have these touring groups or the paid involved in the proposal. [10570/04] professions to perform. 165. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for Arts, Cecilia Keaveney: During the discussion on the Sport and Tourism the progress that has been Arts Act it was suggested that there should be a made by the steering group comprised of sub-group on education. Given that the best way representatives of the FAI, the IRFU, the OPW to market the arts is to start with the youngest and his Department to oversee the construction age group, has the Minister any thoughts on his of the new national stadium at Lansdowne Road; Department and the Arts Council co-operating and if he will make a statement on the matter. with the Department of Education and Science to [10635/04] ensure the promotion of the arts to children from 272. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, a young age? Adulthood it is not the optimum Sport and Tourism the progress in the provision time to do so. of national stadia with the objective of meeting all foreseeable requirements; and if he will make Mr. O’Donoghue: Questions regarding funding a statement on the matter. [10886/04] for touring groups and all other artists are matters for the Arts Council alone. As I said earlier, the Mr. O’Donoghue: I propose to take Questions Minister has no say in that regard. The Minister Nos. 142, 145, 160, 165 and 272 together. has power to direct the Arts Council in Preparatory work leading to the construction exceptional circumstances to implement of a new stadium at Lansdowne Road is already Government policy in one area or another. The under way. Since the Government’s decision of Minister also has power to direct the Arts Council 27 January to support a joint IRFU-FAI proposal 567 Other 6 April 2004. Questions 568

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] commences around July 2006 and continues that to redevelop Lansdowne Road stadium as a year and through 2007, with the project being 50,000 all seated stadium, my Department has completed in 2008. been in regular contact with both the IRFU and the FAI to plan for project implementation. Mr. English: The Minister referred to securing A steering group has been established to planning permission in 2006. Would it be possible advance the project. Chaired by the Secretary to begin negotiations with the local residents to General of my Department, its membership discuss planning concerns? That is what usually comprises representatives of the IRFU, FAI, my delays planning permission. Planning permission Department and the OPW. Its first formal can be secured in a matter of months once the meeting was held on 23 February with two design is completed, but that is only if people’s subsequent meetings held in March. A priority concerns are taken on board. The project team for the steering group is to ensure that all the should do its best to facilitate everyone. That is legal, financial, planning and procurement very important and those negotiations should requirements are met in an efficient and timely begin immediately. manner so actual construction work can get under way at the earliest possible date. Mr. O’Donoghue: The IRFU has been The construction phase is expected to take 29 extremely responsible on this matter, as it has months and is scheduled to commence in 2006 been on everything relating to the stadium. It has and to be completed by the end of 2008. The already met residents of the Lansdowne Road delivery of the project will be the area to discuss the proposals and obviously an 4 o’clock joint responsibility of the IRFU and application such as this will be subject to the the FAI which have approved the rigours of the planning process in the same way establishment of a special purpose vehicle to this as any other application. There are no guarantees end. Discussions on the text of a formal grant I can give about objections. All I can say is I hope agreement between my Department on the one we can keep to or improve upon the time frame hand and the IRFU and FAI on the other are I envisage. However, I do not want to give rise to well advanced and I expect them to reach finality any false hopes and therefore I have consistently in the coming weeks. stated that it is my ambition that the stadium would be completed during 2008. I hope this time Mr. Gogarty: I am glad the steering group is up frame can be adhered to and I am confident that and running, which leads to my next question. will be the case, but the project will have to go How often will the group report back to the through the planning process in the normal way. Minister and how often will he report to the House on the group’s findings? Will there be a Mr. Wall: Given the huge implications for the half-yearly report on progress? How quickly will Exchequer of losing international matches in any delays be pinpointed? Is there an envelope soccer and rugby, has any thought been given to of funding guaranteed over the period or will alternative venues for international matches? Has subsequent budgets affect the process? Is the there been any contact between the Minister and funding ring-fenced? the two organisations involved, the IRFU and the FAI, on how this is to be overcome? Surely now Mr. O’Donoghue: The steering group, under is the time to start talking to overcome the the Secretary General of my Department, Mr. problem rather than reaching construction stage Furlong, will report to me on a very regular basis. in 2006 while still wondering if this massive loss Mr. Furlong already reports to me on a regular to the Exchequer will occur. I know we have a basis about the ongoing work on the new limited choice of venues but now is the time to stadium. Obviously whenever I am required by address this. The Minister will have my support, Members to answer questions about the stadium my party’s support and the support of every I will be only too pleased to do so. We have Member in trying to overcome this problem, but Question Time once a month and I will be quite now is the time to start negotiations on it. What happy to answer any questions which come up or are the Minister’s views on this issue? which are submitted to me in writing. Deputies will be aware that the time frame for Mr. O’Donoghue: I omitted to reply to one of the work seeks the completion of the stadium Deputy Gogarty’s questions. A financial during 2008. It was anticipated that the special envelope has been put in place for this and the purpose vehicle would be established in 2004 and Government has agreed, at current prices, to put I have explained that that has been done. We are up \191 million, with the remainder to be put up then to have the appointment of a project leader, by the IRFU and FAI. project managers and design team, all engaged by Deputy Wall mentioned a replacement venue the special purpose vehicle. In 2005 I anticipate while the new stadium is under construction, that the developed scheme will be prepared and which is obviously a matter of great concern to the planning application lodged and I anticipate me. The facts are that construction will take that in 2006 planning permission will be secured, approximately 29 months and it is difficult to say with detailed design prepared and the tender for for how long during construction the stadium will the work opened. I hope work on construction be closed completely. However, it is without 569 Other 6 April 2004. Questions 570 question that it will be closed completely and traditionally signals the start of the tourist season. people will then ask where international games in The organisers were generally very pleased with particular will be played while Lansdowne Road this year’s events and considered them very is closed. I agree with Deputy Wall that that successful. Regrettably, there were some negative question has to be addressed between now and media reports on teenage drinking, particularly the anticipated commencement date in 2006. late on St. Patrick’s Day. However, the festival organisers are satisfied that no public order Mr. Durkan: Arising from the Minister’s reply, incidents occurred to spoil the parade or the to what extent will he undertake discussions and other events organised throughout the week. negotiations with the various sporting bodies Excessive drinking is a concern to us all and likely to be affected in the event of the new the Government has taken a very firm stance on stadium not being completed within the this issue with the introduction last year of deadline? For example, to what extent will the legislation. It is the primary objective of every Minister engage with the various sporting bodies festival or event organiser that visitors to their to try to ensure that major games scheduled for event, whether local or from overseas, have an Ireland in the intervening period will not have to enjoyable time. It is unfortunate, therefore, that be played outside the country? To what extent incidents such as those referred to by the Deputy will he engage with all the sporting bodies in occurred, particularly as the St. Patrick’s Day order to determine the options which will be festival has developed a very good reputation as available? a family event over the past few years. I hope, therefore, that the scale of such incidents this Mr. O’Donoghue: It is very important that year was exceptional and will not act as a international games are not played outside the deterrent to families who want to enjoy the country at any point during the construction festival atmosphere in the city centre in future phase. It would be a great blow to the morale and years. prestige of sport in the country if that were to happen and I will engage in as much dialogue and Mr. Wall: The St. Patrick’s Day parade in discussion with the major sporting organisations Dublin has gained huge significance in recent as is humanly possible to see if we can bring years. In rural areas there has been a fall-off in about a resolution to that problem. As I say, we St. Patrick’s Day events mainly due to a lack of have some time within which we can do this, insurance cover. This is regretted. Many from between now and the commencement date in country areas travel to Dublin for the parade. 2006, but there should be no complacency. These Newspaper reports of a group of under age fixtures must often be planned far in advance and people drinking did not give much confidence to in fairness to the sporting organisations, it is the development of that aspect of the St. Patrick’s necessary that they have some indication of what Day parade. Has the Minister had meetings with is going to happen. I know they have given this the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law matter some thought already and that the issue Reform on this aspect of the parade? Has he met has been broached in discussions, though we have the St. Patrick’s Day parade committee on the not gone into any great detail. Clearly the issue overall effect of the parade and the interest it has will have to be addressed in far greater detail in generated? I am aware from newspaper reports the near future. that Tourism Ireland had a number of representatives from the travel business and St. Patrick’s Festival. media from other countries here. Has a negative report been received from them on what 143. Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Arts, occurred here? Sport and Tourism if adverse media reports concerning public drinking, especially among teenagers, in Dublin city centre on St. Patrick’s Mr. O’Donoghue: I have not had too many Day may be a deterrent to families and visitors negative reports on the St. Patrick’s Day festival. enjoying the festivities; the effect such reports We are all aware of reports of teenage drinking may have for the tourism industry during such a and thuggery. I marched in the London parade in significant date in the calendar; and if he will the pouring rain with thousands of expatriate make a statement on the matter. [10644/04] Irish people and others, and neither at that nor at the substantial concert afterwards was there any Mr. O’Donoghue: The organisation and trouble whatsoever. It is, therefore, disconcerting promotion of the St. Patrick’s Festival is primarily to return home to find this kind of thuggish a matter for the St. Patrick’s Festival Company, behaviour occurs here. Obviously, it is a cause of which secures substantial funding through Fa´ilte great concern and of embarrassment, and it is Ireland under my Department’s Vote. The deeply regrettable. In the circumstances I will ask festival’s reputation as a world famous event the St. Patrick’s Day festival committee to look at continues to grow. It attracts huge crowds and is the entire question with a view to seeing whether extremely popular, not only with Irish people, suggestions can be made to improve the position. who view it as a great source of pride, but also The festival committee did an exemplary job and with overseas visitors. The parade generates very is in no way at fault for the actions of a few who, favourable international media coverage and it which only served to smear a tremendous festival. 571 Leaders’ 6 April 2004. Questions 572

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] Mr. O’Donoghue: It is time for certain people I sincerely hope the committee will be in a to take responsibility for their behaviour. position to liaise with the relevant authorities with a view to minimising the possibility of a Mr. English: They are 12 year olds. recurrence of this kind of behaviour on the streets. Mr. O’Donoghue: It is about time people started saying that. Mr. English: What the Minister calls embarrassing behaviour happens all over the Mr. Durkan: They are not adults. country at many festivals. Part of the solution is to give young people a choice of other things to Mr. English: The Minister did not answer my do. A report heading to the Minister’s desk shows question. Is he washing his hands of it? the benefits of putting more money into sport and art as a deterrent to drink abuse, drugs and so Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate. on. Will the Minister commit to giving that report serious attention? Its 12 recommendations, if Adjournment Debate Matters. implemented, would solve the problem of under An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I wish to advise age drinking at festivals. This is a problem not the House of the following matters in respect of only at St. Patrick’s Day festival but at festivals which notice has been given under Standing of all kinds throughout the summer and the entire Order 21 and the name of the Member in each year. The Minister’s Department is one case: (1) Deputy O’Sullivan — the need for the Department that can and should make a Minister to fulfil the commitment to build a new difference. Will he commit to giving the report, school at Aghina, Macroom, County Cork; (2) which will be on his desk in a few weeks’ time, Deputy Neville — the epidemic of suicide and serious consideration? parasuicide in Ireland; (3) Deputy Enright — to ask the Minister if he is aware of the critical Mr. Gogarty: Will the Minister acknowledge medical case regarding a person (details supplied) the media reports were based on fact, that under who requires a lifesaving lung transplant; (4) age drinking takes place at all major festivals and Deputy Costello — the Government’s proposals that it has nothing to do with the good work to celebrate the accession of ten new member carried out by the festival committee but rather states to the European Union; (5) Deputy Boyle with Government incompetence, particularly, by — in view of the closure of Buckeye Ireland the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law based in Ringaskiddy, County Cork, with the loss Reform, Deputy McDowell, and by the lack of of 83 jobs, the need for the Minister to outline in funding provided by the Minister for Finance, detail the factors surrounding these job losses and Deputy McCreevy, to the Minister’s Department the action she intends to take. and to the Minister for Education and Science to The matters raised by Deputies Boyle, encourage young people to get involved in sports O’Sullivan, Costello and Enright have been and the arts? That is the nub of the issue. Will selected for discussion. the Minister raise the matter in the strongest terms with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, and stop him Leaders’ Questions. spouting off about more prison spaces, to stop the Mr. Kenny: In recent days the Minister for cause of anti-social behaviour and drinking? Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, made a series of major Mr. O’Donoghue: Let us be clear about one announcements. He promised 2,000 extra Garda, thing, as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law two new prisons and a land bridge, a gun amnesty Reform, I remember introducing legislation to and mandatory sentences for gun offences. I am deal with under age drinking, and the Minister not sure what tablets the Minister was taking but for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy there was a clear commitment in the programme McDowell, has done the same. There is plenty of for Government to the appointment of 2,000 legislation. There are plenty of places where Garda, which was then abandoned and fellows can kick a ball around if they wish rather announced as such by the Minister for Justice, than running around the street half drunk. Equality and Law Reform, partly on the basis of cost and partly on the basis that there was not a Mr. English: They do not all kick ball. manpower problem in dealing with crime here. Is it not patently obvious that the credibility of Mr. O’Donoghue: It is about time we had some the Government on matters of crime is in shreds straight talking. One can put in so much and that the announcements made by the legislation, and we have done that, and the Garda Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, can be asked to do so much, and we have done apparently off the top of his head, have no basis that. It is time for certain people to start behaving in terms of Government decision? Has the as if they were adults. Government approved money for two extra prisons and a land bridge? When will legislation Mr. Gogarty: There are no facilities. on gun amnesties be published? Why did the 573 Leaders’ 6 April 2004. Questions 574

Minister not consider it appropriate to take mandatory ten-year sentence for drug offences to measures on gun amnesties when certain ensure greater application of that provision in the personnel roamed the streets in Limerick a few courts. The former Minister for Justice, Equality months ago, murdering and maiming each other? and Law Reform, Deputy O’Donoghue, brought Why did the Minister not take gun offences in that provision, which has applied for a seriously at that time? Why has he made seven considerable number of years. It has worked pronouncements here about evidence he has of effectively in most instances but case law shows criminal gangs and organised crime? Why has he that some matters need to be examined. The not sent in the CAB and why has the Minister also announced he will examine the Government not provided resources to ensure possibility of introducing an amnesty whereby prosecutions can be brought in these cases and illegal firearms would be handed in to gardaı´, that known criminals, and evidence known to the while not providing immunity for any crimes that Minister and the Taoiseach, can be brought might have been committed with them. before the courts, punished and put out of The programme for Government commits it to business? completing a programme of modernising our Does the Taoiseach propose to bring in a prisons and providing extra places, and the Supplementary Estimate or is this just a whim of Minister has made a number of announcements the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law in this regard. A combination of factors, including Reform, like some summertime Santa Claus, that an increasing population, increased committals to he can appeal to the Minister for Finance, simply prison, the fact that prisoners are serving longer because he got an extra \1 billion in his resources sentences and that the revolving door is gone, has from receipts from offshore accounts? Has the lead to a larger prison population requiring more Government approved the extra gardaı´ and prison accommodation, which is why the Minister prison spaces and the finance for them? When has raised this issue. will we see the legislation in respect of a gun Some time ago, the Minister announced his amnesty? Why does the Minister not send in the decision to close the Mountjoy complex as soon Criminal Assets Bureau and pursue prosecutions as a suitable replacement prison had been built. in regard to organised crime about which he has There is general agreement on the need to evidence? replace the accommodation and facilities at Mountjoy as soon as possible. The prison has The Taoiseach: On the issue of resources, been subject to criticism from many quarters, almost \1 billion has been provided this year to including from the inspector of prisons and the tackle crime. The Minister’s recent committee for the prevention of torture. Some 28 announcement of measures to tackle the offers of sites for the new prison are being increasing level of gun crime builds on the examined by the OPW. unprecedented level of criminal law reform Equally, the accommodation at Cork Prison engaged in by the Minister and the Government. has been subject to criticism and expressions of The Minister has a number of Bills before the concern. The Minister has already expressed the House, including the criminal justice Bill, which view that there is a need for a new prison to serve is before Cabinet and which deals with a range of the southern region. Yesterday, he took the relevant issues. opportunity when visiting Spike Island to The Minister and the Government have examine the suitability of a location for a new demonstrated an unswerving commitment to purpose-built security prison. That issue will be tackling crime through increased Garda resources examined further and taken forward by the and a budget of almost \1 billion. We have given Prison Service. the Garda new powers and introduced criminal justice reforms in regard to the courts and Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The Government closed that prisons. We have addressed the problem of public prison two months ago. order head on with significant new legislation which is working well. As well as providing The Taoiseach: Fort Mitchel place of detention increased resources, we will also meet the on Spike Island closed temporarily due to a challenge posed by gangland and gun crime with failure to reach agreement with the Prison a firm resolve and a targeted, effective response, Officers Association on an agenda to eliminate to which the Minister referred. the payment of overtime. Fort Mitchel will resume its role as a closed detention centre in the Mr. J. O’Keeffe: Where is the money for that? event that agreement is reached with the association. The Taoiseach: The criminal justice Bill will be published during the Easter break. In addition to Mr. J. O’Keeffe: When will we see the 2,000 the substantial new Garda powers contained in it, gardaı´? the Minister proposes to examine the possibility of including new provisions, such as mandatory The Taoiseach: On Garda numbers, the Garda sentences for firearms offences to demonstrate training facility has been operating at a maximum the serious nature of such activity. He has also for some time and it is the Government’s examined the current exemptions to the intention to keep it that way. The Minister has 575 Leaders’ 6 April 2004. Questions 576

[The Taoiseach.] issue. We have invested in reform of the prison indicated he will bring forward the proposal to system and resourcing the criminal justice system. try to continue the Government’s commitment to There has been unprecedented criminal law increase the number of gardaı´ over the lifetime reform. Acts passed in this and the previous of the Government. He is working on such Da´il--—— proposals. Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The Government has not Mr. Kenny: As the Taoiseach has not answered provided a single euro for an extra garda. any of the questions I asked, let me remind him of them. Did the Government make a The Taoiseach: ———and legislation before commitment to recruit 2,000 extra gardaı´? Did it the House, including the criminal justice Bill subsequently announce that this programme was which is coming forward, are all significant in the being abandoned? Is this announcement by the fight against crime. However, we know we must Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform keep up this fight as one cannot ease up on it. In a restoration of the original proposal or is it an recent days, the Minister has outlined his thinking example of how certain Members seem to be on such issues, in preparation for the new afflicted by the selective amnesia that has struck criminal justice Bill which will be published certain former and current Fianna Fa´il Ministers? during the Easter recess. Is it not the case that 105,000 crimes were committed in this country in 2002, and that there Mr. Allen: We are back in the promised land. have been 11 murders to date this year, culminating in a savage murder in Deputy Mr. Rabbitte: Deputy O’Donoghue said, on Rabbitte’s constituency within the past week? becoming Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Are our streets not more like those of Dodge City Reform, that we could judge his zero tolerance in 1880 than of Ireland in 2004? policy after five years on the basis of whether With regard to a gun amnesty, is it not a fact people felt safer in their homes and on the streets. that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law They do not feel very safe in my constituency — Reform knows well, from the intelligence I suspect it is not very different from most briefings he tells everybody about, who the constituencies in this city and elsewhere in the perpetrators are, and that a gun amnesty would county — where a grandmother can be murdered apply to known criminals in organised crime in her own bedroom at 6.30 a.m. on a Saturday. gangs? Why has he not sent in the CAB and why That is the result of zero tolerance. has the Government not sat on these people day To focus on the Tallaght Garda division, there and night until they are put out of business? Does are 163 gardaı´ in the Tallaght area for 90,000 the Taoiseach accept that the Minister for Justice, people. There are more than 400 gardaı´ in Equality and Law Reform has failed in his Limerick, for example, for a lesser population. In responsibility to deliver safe streets, stamp out 1997, the then Minister for Justice, Equality and crime and deliver on the programme for Law Reform, Mrs. Nora Owen, and the then Government which the former Minister, Deputy Garda Commissioner accorded divisional status O’Donoghue, is telling the Taoiseach he brought to Tallaght, which would have brought extra in through his zero tolerance policy, which has manpower resources and vehicles. Seven years also failed? later, not one aspect has been implemented on the bogus pretext that there is not enough The Taoiseach: I offer my condolences to the accommodation at Tallaght to house the new family of Joan Casey in regard to the terrible manpower resources and vehicles. While there murder at the weekend. I do not accept the are 163 gardaı´, the single Garda station is often picture painted by Deputy Kenny is true. Of manned by as few as half a dozen gardaı´. course there is too much crime. This is the reality on the ground while the Minister runs around the country making Mr. Kehoe: The Taoiseach is not doing announcements, as the Taoiseach said. The anything about it. Taoiseach is correct. The Minister makes The Taoiseach: That is why we have continued announcements on everything under the sun. It to strengthen our laws. The Government has built would be a tremendous help if, one of these days, two new prisons. We have substantially increased he could follow one of the announcements Garda numbers, which are at an all time high. through to conclusion. We have improved and strengthened the training Let us consider the figures. There have been facilities for gardaı´, which are at a maximum. 263 murders since 1998 and proceedings have been commenced in 123 or 47% of cases, which is Mr. Kehoe: Where are the extra gardaı´? less than half. There were four murders involving firearms in 1998, of which there were three The Taoiseach: Over the lifetime of the reported detections. Last year there were 21, only Government, our policy is to continue to try to seven of which have been detected. That is the improve that number. We have set up numerous reality of urban life. The Minister for Justice, highly-trained, sophisticated and well-manned Equality and Law Reform travels around the special units within the Garda to deal with this country making these announcements. Deputy 577 Leaders’ 6 April 2004. Questions 578

Kenny has already asked twice and I will ask for Mr. D. Ahern: Bring back Deputy Deasy. the third time. Will the Taoiseach say if the Minister, Deputy McDowell, had the approval of The Taoiseach: As I have already said in Cabinet to announce the recruitment of 2,000 answer to Deputy Rabbitte, we all have our gardaı´ as he did last night? Did he have approval regrets about what happened to Mrs. Joan Casey to announce the construction of two new prisons and offer our condolences. However, does or is this just a repeat of the bogus promises made Deputy Rabbitte believe that every single by the Taoiseach in advance of the 2002 general criminal act can be stopped? It cannot be done. election when he promised 2,000 additional We have established highly sophisticated, gardaı´, none of whom have been recruited since? motivated and well-trained specialist units and the Criminal Assets Bureau to assist in breaking The Taoiseach: As I have already stated, An these gangs. The reality is that it is not easy to Agreed Programme for Government proposed do—— that, over a five year period, the strength of the Garda Sı´ocha´na would be increased by 2,000. Mr. Allen: The Government has failed. That is a commitment in the programme. The resources for this year means that we will move The Taoiseach: —: but we must continue trying to an all-time high of 12,200. The facilities for to do that. Many of the warlords who ran these training gardaı´, which have been modernised and gangs are now serving long sentences. However, updated, are full but further space will become the benefits of drug-related crime attract other available as trainees graduate. The Minister’s people and new gangs now operate in a number proposal—— of areas. We must continue in our efforts to defeat and break them. That is why we are Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The Taoiseach knew that looking at the sentencing, especially where there when he commissioned the Fianna Fa´il manifesto. are exemptions to the mandatory ten year rule. The only way to deal with these issues is by The Taoiseach: ——is to continue to means of detection, arrest, conviction and the maintain— imposition of long sentences, and that is what the Minister is endeavouring to do. Mr. J. O’Keeffe: There were no qualifications. Mr. Rabbitte: The Taoiseach knows that, more The Taoiseach: They are well trained and the than any other single factor, the bluff, bluster and Deputy should not talk nonsense. windbaggery of the Minister, Deputy O’Donoghue, was responsible for him coming to Mr. D. Ahern: Lazarus should give the House office in May 2002. That same Minister said that a break. we could judge him by whether the streets were safer and whether people felt safer in their Mr. J. O’Keeffe: There are 38 instead of 2,000. homes. It is transparent that people do not feel safer in their homes nor in the streets and that is An Ceann Comhairle: This is Leaders’ to understate it. The reality is that there have Questions. been 263 murders and proceedings against the perpetrators have not even been initiated in more The Taoiseach: Our gardaı´ are highly thought than half of them of and highly trained in very good facilities. The The Taoiseach stated that a Garda strength of Deputy’s comments are ridiculous. We will 12,000 will be an all-time high when it is achieved. continue to train as many as possible and the He knew that when he made the promises in Minister is working on that. 2002. It was the Taoiseach, not just the Minister, This Government has built two new prisons. Deputy McDowell, who said that he would The Minister outlined his proposals on prisons recruit 2,000 extra gardaı´. It turned out that the last year. He hopes to bring private investment Garda training college in Templemore could not into the construction of further prisons and this is oblige because it would take almost four years, the right course to take. The Minister has brought but the Taoiseach made the commitment. The forward extensive legislation and this has proved situation now is that the number of new gardaı´ to be very effective in the area of public order. recruited since then less the number of retirees Fifteen months ago—— means 98 new gardaı´ have been recruited and the Taoiseach stated that there would be 2,000. (Interruptions). The Minister, Deputy McDowell, goes around making announcements. The Taoiseach says the The Taoiseach: ——-this was a major issue. Minister has brought legislation before the House. Where is it? He has promised and Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The Taoiseach is presiding announced it. Unless the Taoiseach means the over Al Capone land. Bill on public order that was passed by the previous Da´il and that has not made one whit of An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Taoiseach difference, where is this legislation? When will speak without interruption. the Minister deal with the fact that people do not 579 Leaders’ 6 April 2004. Questions 580

[Mr. Rabbitte.] agree that our national airline, Aer Lingus, would feel safe walking the streets of Dublin and other be put up for sale within a matter of months. Will cities because of the extent of gangland deaths? the Taoiseach confirm if this is the case and if the These people are ordinary, law-abiding citizens sale of Aer Lingus has been under active such as my constituent, Mrs. Joan Casey, who, discussion in Cabinet or is scheduled for such despite that she was minding her own business discussion? If the Government sells Aer Lingus, was murdered in her bedroom in the early hours what form will the sale take and to whom will it of Saturday morning. How is that acceptable? be sold? How can the Taoiseach continue to stand over a Is the Taoiseach happy that the national airline situation where 163 gardaı´ police a community of should go the same way as the national 90,000 people? How can he say it is being done telecommunications industry, namely, into the because there is not enough accommodation to hands of venture capitalists, speculators, a house additional gardaı´ in Tallaght? billionaire tax exile facilitated by the Government’s legislation and the type of people The Taoiseach: There are 12,200 gardaı´ in the who think that the cabin crew should hop out and State. A large number of specialist units in the push an aeroplane along the runway if it stalls to State deal with gangland killings. We will get it going again? All these people have milked continue to provide increased resources. This the telecommunications industry of hundreds of year \1 billion has been invested in the criminal millions of euro, resources which properly belong justice system and the Garda. We will continue to the people and which could be invested in to increase the number of prison places and to many of our starved public services rather than introduce legislation. going into the coffers of bloated multinational corporations. Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The Minister, Deputy Aer Lingus made a profit of \83 million last O’Donoghue, closed two prisons. year. Anybody who used the service in recent times and saw the pressure workers are under to The Taoiseach: Deputy Rabbitte is well aware keep the company going will know from where of the extent of the legislation which has come the extra profit came. Is the Taoiseach aware that through the justice system. There has been much many people would regard it as outright useful legislation dealing with public order. treachery if the Government were to decide, in The Deputy asked when the criminal justice exactly the same manner as it sold our Bill will come before the House. He will see it telecommunications industry, to sell the national during the Easter recess and it will be before the airline of an island nation to faceless venturers House in the next session. I will not quote the and allow them to speculate with the company figures on the reduction in crime because it and its workers without democratic control? makes no sense to do so. I know the death of Mrs. Casey upsets people, as do gangland murders. I The Taoiseach: The short answer to the am aware that people are upset and horrified Deputy’s long question is that there is no when gangs murder innocent people, but we will proposal before the Government to sell Aer continue to provide more resources and to Lingus. I do not have anything—— introduce more stringent legislation to deal with the issue. Mr. S. Ryan: He should tell that to his Minister The Government’s commitment was to for Transport. increase Garda numbers by 2,000 over the lifetime of the Government and we will continue The Taoiseach: All the answers to the other to do that as resources permit. At any one time, questions, therefore, fall. Twice in the past ten about 500 gardaı´ are being trained in years, taxpayers’ resources had to be used to save Templemore and capacity has been dramatically Aer Lingus, because of many of the issues the increased in the past five to six years to allow for Deputy mentioned. The company was not able to extra numbers. survive without injections of resources. Mr. J. O’Keeffe: There was nothing about resources in the Fianna Fa´il manifesto. Mr. S. Ryan: It was not the only airline in need of them. Mr. G. Mitchell: The Government should build a few decent community facilities instead of more The Taoiseach: The trade union large prisons. representatives, the representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions as well as SIPTU and The Taoiseach: We will continue to do that. IMPACT and the company worked hard to try to The level of retirement reduces the increased find a viability plan. The concern of the trade numbers but we propose to continue to increase unions and workers now is whether, in the the number of gardaı´ and this year’s figure will changed world of aviation, they can sustain all be 12,200. their achievements in the longer term without looking to the future and making plans. I know Mr. J. Higgins: In recent days press reports management and workers have that concern but suggested that the Government was about to there are no conclusions. 581 Request to move Adjournment of 6 April 2004. Da´il under Standing Order 31 582

Mr. J. Higgins: Will the Taoiseach be more Ms Enright: I seek the adjournment of the Da´il specific on the Government’s intention regarding under Standing Order 31 to debate the following the future of the national airline? It is not for issue of urgent national importance, namely, the nothing that he and his Minister for Transport working of the agreement between the orchestrated the passing of legislation facilitating Department of Health and Children and the the sale of a significant section of Aer Lingus to Freeman Hospital, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, with private venture capitalists. Does he remember regard to the exclusive rights held by the hospital how his Government burned 400,000 people, to all donor lungs from Ireland, and the fact that mostly small investors, when his former Minister a person with cystic fibrosis who has already been for Public Enterprise engaged in every trick to selected for a lung transplant at Manchester con them into buying shares in Eircom? Hospital cannot undergo this critical, life-saving Admittedly the powers of recall of the former procedure as a lung will not be released to him Minister in question, Senator O’Rourke, are by the Freeman Hospital, Newcastle-upon-Tyne. much greater than the Taoiseach’s, as we have seen in recent days. Surely, however, he cannot Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: I seek the adjournment forget how ordinary people were burned while of the Da´il under Standing Order 31 to debate four executive directors of the company earned the following matter of urgent national \29 million in a brief two and a half year period. importance, namely, the need for the For good measure, they threw a few million euro Government to launch an international initiative in the direction of a tame trade union leader who to expose the truth of collusion between inexplicably maintains his position as general successive British Governments and their secretary of the main union. Is this the future the surrogate Unionist paramilitary organisations in Government has mapped out for Aer Lingus? the killings of hundreds of people; the mandate The Taoiseach should not tell the House that no given to the Government by the Oireachtas Sub- decision has been made. What is his intention, as Committee on the Barron Report to initiate the Prime Minister, with regard to Aer Lingus in further investigations into the failure by agencies the remainder of his Government’s period of of the State to properly investigate the Dublin office? and Monaghan bombings of May 1974; and to press the British Government to establish a The Taoiseach: Whatever happens with Aer public inquiry into the role of its forces in that Lingus in the future, the Government will try to atrocity. protect and maintain the jobs of all the ordinary people, as Deputy Joe Higgins describes them, Aengus O´ Snodaigh: I seek the adjournment of who work in the company. the Da´il under Standing Order 31 to discuss the need for the Government to become pro-active Ms O’Sullivan: What about the people in on the issue of collusion in response to the appeal Shannon Airport who have been told they must of bereaved families and survivors of collusion move to Dublin or lose their jobs? who visited Leinster House on 25 March and were met by Deputies and Senators from all The Taoiseach: As we know, aviation is political parties, except the Labour and extremely volatile. We have seen several airlines, Progressive Democrats parties, and several including Olympic Airways, SAS and KLM, in Independent Deputies. trouble. At least we have an airline in which people may possibly invest to keep it expanding Mr. Morgan: I seek the adjournment of the in future. Aer Lingus has gone through a period Da´il under Standing Order 31 to debate the of overhaul but that matter is one for following matter of urgent national importance, consideration in the future. As the Deputy namely, the findings of the Cory report which knows, if the company gets into trouble again, the clearly indicate that there was widespread way is no longer open for taxpayers’ money to be collusion between the British Government and invested in it. That is not an alternative that is loyalist death squads in the killing of Irish citizens open to us. north and south of the Border over the past 30 years. Mr. Stagg: It is open, that is a falsehood. Mr. Crowe: I seek the adjournment of the Da´il The Taoiseach: Aer Lingus has successfully under Standing Order 31 to discuss the latest turned itself around and the issue now is to try to comments by Judge Peter Cory in which he maintain, sustain and develop it. acknowledges that the British Government has failed to live up to the clear commitments it made at Weston Park to launch a public inquiry into Request to move Adjournment of Da´il under the death of Belfast solicitor, Pat Finucane, if that Standing Order 31. was the recommendation of his report. An Ceann Comhairle: I propose to deal with a number of notices under Standing Order 31. I will An Ceann Comhairle: Having considered the call the Deputies in the order in which they matters raised, they are not in order under submitted notices to my office. Standing Order 31. 583 Order of 6 April 2004. Business 584

Order of Business. disadvantaged backgrounds who apply for Civil Service jobs? We do not know the range of the The Taoiseach: The Order of Business today proposed fees, which amount to another stealth shall be as follows: No. 8, Public Service tax, and the House will not have an opportunity Management (Recruitment and Appointments) to debate the matter. Bill 2003 — Financial Resolution; No. 13, Air Navigation and Transport (International An Ceann Comhairle: I understand the Conventions) Bill 2004 [Seanad] — Order for proposal is in the Bill. Report, Report and Final Stages, to adjourn at 7 p.m., if not previously concluded; No. 14, Ms Burton: Will the Taoiseach defer the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004 — Second financial resolution until the Committee on Stage (resumed). Finance and the Public Service has had an It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in opportunity to hear the Government’s proposals Standing Orders, that the Da´il shall sit later than from the Minister? 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m.; No. 8 shall be An Ceann Comhairle: This is a technical decided without debate; and Private Members’ motion to approve the charges already provided business shall be No. 35, Motion re Paramilitary for in the Bill. Activities. Ms Burton: They are not provided for in the An Ceann Comhairle: There are two proposals Bill. before the House. Is the proposal for the late Mr. Howlin: They have not been enacted yet. sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 8 without debate agreed to? Ms Burton: We are only beginning Committee Stage tomorrow. We have a serious objection to Ms Burton: The financial resolution in question this stealth tax which will mitigate against will, for the first time, vest in the Minister for disadvantaged people. Finance and the new recruitment process the power to charge fees to people who apply for Mr. M. Higgins: It is a socially-divisive tax public service jobs. This provision was not made which will affect thousands of people. known in the course of debate to date on the Public Service Management (Recruitment and An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Taoiseach to Appointments) Bill. The resolution provides for speak without interruption. the introduction of another form of stealth tax. The Taoiseach: I would like to answer Deputy As Committee Stage of the Bill will not be Burton’s question. She asked that we allow a debated until tomorrow in the Committee on debate on the issue. It is a requirement that the Finance and the Public Service, there has not resolution before the House is passed so it can be been an opportunity to discuss this proposal or discussed tomorrow. That is what we are asking obtain information about the level and range of the House to do. fees the Government clearly intends to introduce. The introduction of this measure without debate Mr. M. Higgins: That is anticipating a decision is, therefore, inappropriate. on Committee Stage. Charging fees to make public service job applications is a major change. What will be the Question put: “That the proposal for dealing effect on poorer people or young people from with No. 8 be agreed.”

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 66; Nı´l, 49.

Ta´

Ahern, Bertie. de Valera, Sı´le. Ahern, Dermot. Dempsey, Tony. Ahern, Michael. Dennehy, John. Ahern, Noel. Devins, Jimmy. Andrews, Barry. Ellis, John. Aylward, Liam. Fahey, Frank. Blaney, Niall. Finneran, Michael. Brady, Johnny. Fitzpatrick, Dermot. Brady, Martin. Fleming, Sea´n. Browne, John. Fox, Mildred. Callanan, Joe. Glennon, Jim. Callely, Ivor. Grealish, Noel. Carey, Pat. Hanafin, Mary. Cassidy, Donie. Haughey, Sea´n. Cooper-Flynn, Beverley. Healy-Rae, Jackie. Coughlan, Mary. Keaveney, Cecilia. Cregan, John. Kelleher, Billy. Curran, John. Kelly, Peter. Davern, Noel. Kirk, Seamus. 585 Order of 6 April 2004. Business 586

Ta´—continued

Lenihan, Brian. O’Donovan, Denis. Lenihan, Conor. O’Keeffe, Batt. McCreevy, Charlie. O’Malley, Tim. McDowell, Michael. Parlon, Tom. McEllistrim, Thomas. Power, Peter. ´ McGuinness, John. Power, Sean. Ryan, Eoin. Martin, Michea´l. Sexton, Mae. Moynihan, Donal. Smith, Brendan. Moynihan, Michael. Wallace, Dan. Mulcahy, Michael. Walsh, Joe. O´ Cuı´v, E´ amon. Wilkinson, Ollie. O´ Fearghaı´l, Sea´n. Woods, Michael. O’Connor, Charlie. Wright, G.V. O’Donoghue, John.

Nı´l

Allen, Bernard. McGrath, Paul. Boyle, Dan. McManus, Liz. Broughan, Thomas P. Mitchell, Gay. Bruton, John. Morgan, Arthur. Bruton, Richard. Naughten, Denis. Burton, Joan. Neville, Dan. Connaughton, Paul. O´ Caola´in, Caoimhghı´n. Connolly, Paudge. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Costello, Joe. O’Dowd, Fergus. Cowley, Jerry. O’Keeffe, Jim. Crawford, Seymour. O’Sullivan, Jan. Cuffe, Ciara´n. Pattison, Seamus. Durkan, Bernard J. Penrose, Willie. English, Damien. Rabbitte, Pat. Enright, Olwyn. Ryan, Eamon. Gilmore, Eamon. Ryan, Sea´n. Harkin, Marian. Sargent, Trevor. Higgins, Joe. Sherlock, Joe. Higgins, Michael D. Shortall, Ro´ isı´n. Hogan, Phil. Stagg, Emmet. Howlin, Brendan. Stanton, David. Kehoe, Paul. Timmins, Billy. Kenny, Enda. Upton, Mary. McCormack, Padraic. Wall, Jack. McGinley, Dinny.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Nı´l, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried. he was speaking for the Government when he said it was desirable that the referendum on Mr. Kenny: When can we expect to see citizenship be decoupled from an election legislation before the House on the gun amnesty? environment? When will the relevant Bill be When will we see legislation dealing with the published and when is it likely to come before successor to the health boards. It the House? 5 o’clock appears that health board staff are confused about who their employer An Ceann Comhairle: The Taoiseach should will be on 1 July given that the Minister for reply on legislation. Health and Children will assume responsibility for the acquisition and legal disposal of assets The Taoiseach: The legislation will be held by health boards. Will this be addressed published within the next few days. before the changeover date? Mr. Stagg: My party leader asked a specific The Taoiseach: As I said earlier, the criminal justice Bill will be published either during or just question on when the legislation will come before after the Easter recess. I do not know if it will the House. contain the proposal referred to but the Minister will make the final decisions on it. The Taoiseach: That will have to be discussed The health board legislation has been cleared with the Whips but the Government would like by the Government and will be circulated within to see it before the House at an early date. days, probably next week. Mr. Sargent: The Bill we are being asked about Mr. Rabbitte: Does the Taoiseach agree with most frequently is the disability Bill, which is on the Minister of State, Deputy O’Dea, or know if the pink pages. Will it be rights-based? Will the 587 Order of 6 April 2004. Business 588

[Mr. Sargent.] Office of the Attorney General have been trying Taoiseach indicate on what date it will be to deal with it. The comhairle (amendment) Bill published? and the sectoral proposals must also be I know the Taoiseach is asked about the prison considered. On the basis of many of the services Bill regularly, but he might have news on comments we received, there is still some work to it. Is this not a case of the cart coming before the be done on the disability Bill even though we horse in light of the announcements on prisons? have done considerable work on it. It has nothing Should we not have legislation before we have to do with the Education for Persons with announcements on changes to our prison Disabilities Bill. infrastructure? Likewise, will the critical It is not possible at this stage to indicate the infrastructure (Dublin metro) Bill be preceded by date on which the prison services Bill will be an announcement on the metro? published.

An Ceann Comhairle: It is not necessary to Mr. Crawford: In light of the need to build make any comments on the Bills. extra prisons, is any effort being made to introduce the fines Bill which will prevent people Mr. Sargent: I have three questions. being put in jail who do not necessarily need to be put there? Ms O’Sullivan: My point is on the same subject Earlier today, we met the Immigrant Council raised by Deputy Sargent. I want further of Ireland, which was established by this House clarification on whether the delay in taking and to be funded by the State, yet no funds are Report Stage of the Education for Persons with now being made available to it. In light of that, Disabilities Bill is in some way an attempt to when will the immigration and residence Bill delay the disability Bill? At one stage the come before the House so we can have a full Minister for Education and Science said—— discussion on the funding of that organisation?

An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise at The Taoiseach: The draft scheme of the fines this stage. I suggest that the Deputy submit a Bill to provide for updating legislation on fines question to the Minister. and related matters was circulated to various Departments and views have been received and Ms O’Sullivan: ——he would complete the are being examined. Work on the heads of the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill immigration and residence Bill is ongoing but has before taking the disability Bill. Will the been delayed by work on other immigration Taoiseach clarify that he will not wait for one to legislation matters and this includes consideration be passed before he publishes the other? of submissions received as part of the public consultation process on immigration and the The Taoiseach: The answer to that question is: International Organisation for Migrant study of “Definitely not”. We are trying to pass the migrant legislation and practice. Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill as soon as we can. Mr. Costello: Arising from the package of On the prison services Bill, it is not possible proposals from the Minister for Justice, Equality to—— and Law Reform and specifically, the gun amnesty, does the Taoiseach propose that Mr. Sargent: What about the disability Bill? General de Chastelain will oversee decommissioning there? In the context of the An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Taoiseach to Grangegorman Development Agency Bill, given answer the questions, please. that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has proposed another 2,000 gardaı´, but The Taoiseach: The Deputy asked me about Templemore does not have the capacity, will the the prison services Bill. Taoiseach consider locating a Garda academy on the Grangegorman site? Mr. Sargent: The Taoiseach should address the disability Bill first. An Ceann Comhairle: I suggest the Deputy submits a question to the Minister for Justice, An Ceann Comhairle: It does not matter what Equality and Law Reform on that matter. order they are taken in once the Deputy’s questions are answered. The Taoiseach: The first matter relates to criminal justice legislation but one does not need Mr. Boyle: We are helping the Taoiseach with a legislative measure for the amnesty. The his recall. Grangegorman Development Agency Bill is being drafted and will be published shortly. The Taoiseach: It is very good, actually. It is hoped that we can complete the disability Bill as Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: Patient Focus, soon as possible. As I said previously, there has representing the victims of Michael Neary and been a great deal of discussion on the Bill. others, has indicated that it is incensed at the Almost 50 officials from Departments and the narrowness of the terms of reference of—— 589 Order of 6 April 2004. Business 590

An Ceann Comhairle: Do you have a question deaths of workers, especially in the construction appropriate to the Order of Business? industry, when will we see the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill? Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: I am actually asking a question if you allow me to finish the The Taoiseach: On Our Lady of Lourdes sentence—— Hospital and the Neary case, the Minister for Health and Children is in consultation with the An Ceann Comhairle: You are not asking a families and representatives on the issue and question; you are making a statement. discussions took place yesterday. There is continuing contact between them. The Minister Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: I am asking a question has listened to the points made. There will not if you would allow me to finish. Will you allow me to finish, a Cheann Comhairle? necessarily be legislation in that area but that matter is ongoing. An Ceann Comhairle: I will allow you to ask a I already responded to Deputy Kenny in regard question appropriate to the Order of to the Health (Amendment) Bill and said it Business—— would be published in a matter of days. The health Bill is a large one and it is being drafted Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: Will the same ruling but, as I pointed out recently, it will take some apply to this Deputy as all others? time. The Safety, Heath and Welfare at Work Bill will be published before the beginning of the An Ceann Comhairle: You must obey the summer session. Standing Order like everybody else. Mr. Howlin: My question was encompassed in Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: I am asking a question. that comprehensive trawl by Deputy O´ Caola´in. How can you judge whether it is a question until The Health, Safety and Welfare at Work Bill has I finish the sentence? been promised three times and the date has As I stated, Patient Focus has indicated that moved. Given the commitments made to large it is incensed at the narrowness of the terms of groups of workers concerned about the ongoing reference of the inquiry into gynaecological and carnage on building sites outside this House, obstetric abuses at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital when will the Bill be enacted, or at least, be in Drogheda and the fact the inquiry will only presented? refer to the period since 1986 and what I want to ask is—— The Taoiseach: I am told it will be presented An Ceann Comhairle: You are making a at the end of April. statement. I call Deputy Howlin. Mr. Kenny: Am I to understand the Taoiseach Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: ——will legislation be will not be present in the House tomorrow? I brought forward to establish an inquiry with know arrangements have been made for the wider terms of reference or will a motion be Taoiseach to give his evidence at the tribunal. I tabled in the House? understand that evidence is simple. Am I to understand he must meet the legal team in the An Ceann Comhairle: Is legislation promised? morning? Does he intend to be present for the Order of Business tomorrow morning? Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: I am not finished; I have a number of other questions on promised The Taoiseach: It depends on the legislation. arrangements. I was to discuss all these matters I refer to the Government’s list of promised with the legal team at the weekend but we did Bills to be concluded before the end of the spring not do that for other reasons. I assume I will have term. On 25 January, the Government published to do that in the morning but I will need to see 25 Bills of which I can only see six that have been what time I am scheduled to be on tomorrow. dealt with in the session. Where stands the Health (Amendment) Bill to allow for the removal of Mr. Kenny: If that is the case, it means the councillors from health boards in advance of the Taoiseach will not be back here until 27 April. If local elections? When will that be addressed his memory is as sharp as it appears and the given that we have a limited period of time—— answer is “No, I was not there”, why does he have An Ceann Comhairle: That has been dealt with to meet a legal team? Can he still not find time today in response to Deputy Kenny. to be here for the Order of Business?

Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: ——in the lead up to An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on the local elections on 11 June? the Order of Business. What is the position of the health Bill, number 76 on the list, to establish the executive itself? Mr. Quinn: When will the building control Bill Given the continuing toll of avoidable, accidental be published? 591 Order of 6 April 2004. Business 592

The Taoiseach: It is listed for the middle of this Mr. J. Higgins: Will the Da´il sit the week year, but it will not be brought forward before beginning 19 April? the summer. The Taoiseach: I think the House will sit that Mr. J. Higgins: On the proposed legislation on week. citizenship rights for children born in this State to parents who are not citizens, is it the intention of Mr. J. Higgins: Is it the Taoiseach’s intention the Government to order the discussion on that to run the referendum on 11 June? Bill in order to—— The Taoiseach: That is the Government’s An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on intention. the Order of Business. Mr. J. Higgins: It is outrageous and Mr. J. Higgins: Da´il sittings, arrangements for irresponsible. The Minister for Justice, Equality Da´il debates and promised legislation arise on the and Law Reform is sniggering away. One would Order of Business. wish that he would stay out of the House playing with his prisons to keep him away from—— An Ceann Comhairle: That matter has already been dealt with. An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Higgins, allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak. Mr. J. Higgins: I will be brief. In order to hold the referendum on 11 June to run with the local Mr. Rabbitte: A Cheann Comhairle, maybe and European Parliament elections, which would this question is for you. Two weeks ago I be highly reckless and irresponsible, is it the suggested to the Taoiseach that the House was Taoiseach’s intention that the Da´il should return coming back early to take the citizenship Bill but the week beginning 19 April to deal with this or he seemed to deny it. He has misled Deputy other legislation? Kenny who thought we were coming back on 27 April. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law An Ceann Comhairle: That has already been Reform clearly thinks this is a matter for smug dealt with. satisfaction that a party which espouses republicanism in Killarney is to utilise an election The Taoiseach: I have already indicated that environment to stir up the type of antipathy we Bill will be circulated shortly. The Government saw at the last election. wants to take it soon. An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy must Mr. Stagg: The answer is “Yes”. confine himself to a question appropriate to the Order of Business. The Taoiseach: That is what I have said. Mr. Rabbitte: Do I take it, a Cheann Mr. J. Higgins: A Cheann Comhairle—— Comhairle, that if the Taoiseach does not answer the question, you will answer it? Is the House An Ceann Comhairle: The question has being convened a week earlier than advised to already been dealt with. I call Deputy Rabbitte. the Whips at the beginning of the year? If the Taoiseach will not be here tomorrow, will he at Mr. J. Higgins: I asked a question that is least tell the House why it is being reconvened a absolutely in order. week earlier and what the business will be? He must stop playing ducks and drakes with us on An Ceann Comhairle: That question was asked this side of the House. I am sick and tired of the earlier and was answered by the Taoiseach. We prevarication, ducking and weaving and have repetition. dishonesty from the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy McDowell, on the matter. Is the Mr. J. Higgins: No. I asked if it was the Taoiseach taking the bloody Bill a week early or intention of the Government bring the Da´il back is he not? the week beginning 19 April to deal with this or other legislation? That is absolutely in order and An Ceann Comhairle: As regards the Chair, it I would like the Taoiseach to answer. is a matter for the House on Thursday when we adjourn for the Easter recess. An Ceann Comhairle: The Taoiseach answered that question. Mr. Howlin: Has the Ceann Comhairle been approached? The Taoiseach: I will repeat what I stated earlier. I said the Government will publish the The Taoiseach: I have already answered the Bill in the next few days and that it wants to take question. There are procedures for dealing with the Bill as soon as the Whips can arrange it. We the issue. I was asked if the Government will will need to do so quickly, and probably the week publish the Bill and I said it will do so in the next after next. few days. I was asked if it will take the Bill early 593 Order of 6 April 2004. Business 594 and I said it will. I also said we would discuss the Mr. Rabbitte: One cannot be a little bit matter with the Whip, which is the normal way to pregnant. Was it approved or not? do business. As has already been said, if we wish to deal with the Bill properly on 11 June, we must An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte must provide time for a debate at an early stage. We allow the Taoiseach to answer the question. will go through the normal procedures before doing so. Mr. Rabbitte: What does the Taoiseach mean In reply to Deputies Higgins and Rabbitte, I do when he says it is almost complete? not accept that reasonable and practical constitutional and legislative proposals designed (Interruptions). to bring the immigration and citizenship laws into line with our European partners can be termed The Taoiseach: The matter was discussed today difficult or racist — it is not. and matters outstanding will be dealt with.

Deputies: Hear, hear. An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte must allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption. I call Deputy Naughten. Mr. Penrose: What about the North of Ireland? Mr. Rabbitte: What is the answer to the The Taoiseach: I do not believe that a mature question? debate on immigration, which is a very simple issue—— An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Naughten.

Mr. Quinn: It is rushed. Mr. Rabbitte: A Cheann Comhairle, relax.

The Taoiseach: ——will fundamentally change An Ceann Comhairle: I am quite relaxed. the significant issues we have been managing Perhaps the Deputy will take a bit of his own fairly well across all parties in recent years, and advice. which are creating huge problems in other countries. We have managed to deal with the Mr. Rabbitte: I am entitled to ask about issues in this country. I do not believe that an legislation. I am pleased the Minister for Justice, extremely reasonable proposal will be Equality and Law Reform thinks it is a matter transformed into any kind of racist proposal of hilarity. purely by dealing with the matter on the same day as an election. It is not a complex, difficult or An Ceann Comhairle: If the Deputy has a divisive issue. This will only be the case if people question, I will hear it, otherwise I will move on purport to try to do that. I certainly will not do to the next business. so, and I urge others not do so. Mr. Rabbitte: No, a Cheann Comhairle, you (Interruptions). will not, or you will move on without my party. Is the Bill and the text of the amendment An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Naughten. approved by Cabinet? The Taoiseach promised Deputy Kenny and me that he would involve us Mr. Allen: The Taoiseach should talk to a in consultation. When will that consultation take few—— place? When will the Bill be published and has it been approved? Mr. Rabbitte: Were the text of the Bill and the ´ amendment approved by Cabinet today? Caoimhghı´nOCaola´in: Will there be consultations with the other parties? The Taoiseach: The work on the Bill is almost An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Taoiseach to complete. There are still relatively minor matters reply. to be dealt with. Most of the work is completed. The Taoiseach: In reply to Deputy Rabbitte, Mr. Rabbitte: How can the Taoiseach say—— there will be consultation, which I hope will take place tomorrow. The Minister for Justice, An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot have a Equality and Law Reform will—— debate on the issue now. We must move on to other business. (Interruptions).

Mr. Rabbitte: I want to know what I am The Taoiseach: In reply to Deputy Rabbitte’s entitled to ask about promised legislation. Was other question, the Bill was approved today. the Bill approved by Cabinet this morning? There are a few outstanding issues which the Minister and the Attorney General are The Taoiseach: I have already stated that the completing. These should be completed Bill will be published in the next few days. tomorrow, if not tonight. 595 Order of 6 April 2004. Business 596

Mr. J. Higgins: How can it be well considered An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy will be when it is being rushed? called when it is his turn.

(Interruptions). Mr. Stagg: On a point of order, am I correct in assuming that when a Member asks a question Mr. Naughten: When will we see Report Stage concerning either primary or secondary of the Rail Safety Bill? The Minister promised legislation, he is entitled to an answer or, if the the legislation would be enacted by spring, but answer is not available, he is entitled to a spring of what year? deferred answer? Deputy Penrose asked a question whether secondary or primary The Taoiseach: The summer session. legislation is required——

Mr. Penrose: In the context of the cuts in social An Ceann Comhairle: The legislation is welfare benefits to widows, widowers and lone- promised. parent families, and the commitment given by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Social and Family Mr. Stagg: It has been promised but we want Affairs, when will the necessary amending to know when. legislation be brought forward to enable payments to be restored to the rates which Mr. Penrose: The Taoiseach and Ta´naiste existed prior to the reductions? said——

The Taoiseach: There is no legislation needed. The Taoiseach: Legislation on this matter is neither promised nor required. Mr. Penrose: Secondary legislation is needed. We spent three or four weeks debating it. How A Deputy: Secondary? will the cuts, which should not have been introduced, be reversed? Aengus O´ Snodaigh: The Government recently published a Government action programme— An Ceann Comhairle: I suggest that the Deputy submit a question to the Minister for (Interruptions). Social and Family Affairs. An Ceann Comhairle: DeputyO´ Snodaigh Mr. Penrose: There must be amending without interruption. legislation. Aengus O´ Snodaigh: ——on better regulation Mr. Durkan: It was probably discussed in in which it pointed out that best practice would Cabinet this morning. be to issue a White Paper, followed by the heads of a Bill. I asked last week about the judicial (Interruptions). conduct and ethics Bill. When will the heads of the Bill be published so that we can prepare to An Ceann Comhairle: The matter is not debate the matter? Will a White Paper on judicial appropriate to the Order of Business. I call conduct be issued prior to the Bill? Deputy O´ Snodaigh. The Taoiseach: The Department is considering Mr. Penrose: Will the Taoiseach find out—— the provisions that might be included in the Bill, (Interruptions). taking account of work done by the constitutional review group, the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Mr. Penrose: It is a valid question. the Constitution and the Chief Justice’s committee on judicial ethics. The Taoiseach: Legislation is not required. Mr. Gilmore: As a result of the regulations on Mr. Durkan: The question is a valid one. One rent allowances, a growing number of tenants of the things that has been happening in this now face eviction because their rents have been House in the last few weeks is that changes are increased. These tenants would be able to appeal being sprung—— the rents if the Residential Tenancies Bill were enacted. As the Government has not scheduled An Ceann Comhairle: I ask the Deputy to Report Stage of the Residential Tenancies resume his seat. Bill——

Mr. Durkan: A Cheann Comhairle, you can ask An Ceann Comhairle: We must move on. Two me to resume my seat—— of the Deputy’s colleagues wish to contribute.

An Ceann Comhairle: I ask the Deputy to Mr. Gilmore: As the Residential Tenancies Bill resume his seat until he is called. will not be enacted for several months, will the Taoiseach withdraw or suspend the regulations Mr. Durkan: When will I be called? for rent allowance until it has been enacted? 597 Order of 6 April 2004. Business 598

The Taoiseach: The Government wants to take legislation is needed for that and the Minister for that Bill as soon as possible. Transport has said he will go ahead with it before the summer. Finally, when will we see the Mr. Gilmore: If the Government wants to take legislation that has been promised to deal with it as soon as possible, why does it not take it the court challenges to notices sent out under the week we come back? penalty points system? It seems that prosecutions in regard to a large number of offences are in Mr. Allen: It has been on the Order Paper jeopardy. since July 2003. The Taoiseach: Extending the penalty points Mr. Durkan: The question I wished to ask has system can be handled by regulation. been answered. Ms Shortall: The Minister for Transport told An Ceann Comhairle: Then we will move on me in reply to a parliamentary question last week to Deputy Broughan. that extending penalty points to the use of mobile phones requires primary legislation which he Mr. Durkan: It has recently been the practice promised. of the Government to announce legislation giving the shortest possible period for the Opposition to The Taoiseach: The first can be achieved by study it, table amendments or respond in any regulation but if the Minister said legislation is other way. This has become common practice and needed for the second, it is not yet listed. On the it will not be tolerated by the Opposition. If the third issue, no legislation is promised on a traffic Government expects the co-operation of the corps. Opposition it must change its tune. Mr. Stagg: The corps was promised and the Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: That means an end to Government said legislation is necessary. pairing. The Taoiseach: Yes, but to the best of my Mr. Broughan: The coastal zone management knowledge the Minister is not going ahead in the Bill was part of the Government’s legislative short term with the corps so he will not be programme for five or six years but it disappeared introducing legislation. from the legislative programme for the spring. What has happened to it? Ms Shortall: The Minister for Transport I asked the Taoiseach’s brother, the Minister announced this morning that he is going ahead of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, about a north side with the establishment of a traffic corps so matter — the city manager’s attempt to turn St. presumably legislation will be required. Anne’s Park, Raheny, into an industrial estate. An Ceann Comhairle: I suggest the Deputy An Ceann Comhairle: That was dealt with on submit a question to the Minister. the Adjournment last week. The Taoiseach: The Minister has not sought Mr. Broughan: The Taoiseach knows the park approval for legislation to establish a traffic corps. well. Like me, he played football and hurling there. What are his views on what is happening Ms Shortall: What about the court cases arising to it? from challenges to penalty points?

An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on The Taoiseach: No legislation is promised and the Order of Business. the Minister said he will examine the legal matters involved before bringing forward any The Taoiseach: The coastal zone management proposals. He has not brought forward any Bill is being incorporated into the marine proposals. services Bill. Mr. Sargent: I wish to confirm what was said Ms Shortall: I would like to ask the Taoiseach earlier about the immigration Bill, namely, that about four Bills promised in the past week by the consultation will take place before publication of Minister for Transport. I cannot find any of them the Bill that will include all parties in the House on the Government’s legislative programme so and that consultation will take place tomorrow. Is perhaps the Taoiseach might tell us the titles of that correct? the Bills and when we can expect to see them. It is expected that the Taoiseach will attend The first Bill will provide for random breath Leaders’ Questions tomorrow and it is testing, while the second will provide for the reprehensible that he would be absent on the inclusion of the use of mobile telephones in the basis that he is taking advice from his legal team. penalty points system. The third Bill will allow That is totally unsatisfactory. for the establishment of a dedicated traffic corps. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on Reform has stated that his advice is that new the Order of Business. 599 Air Navigation and Transport 6 April 2004. Bill 2004: Report and Final Stages 600

The Taoiseach: If the Deputy is asking for a holders to delegate some or all of their briefing from the Minister for Justice, Equality recruitment processes to persons or bodies and Law Reform, I will bring that to his attention. specified by that Commission from time to time, to enable those services to respond to Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: We expect the same changes in their recruitment needs and in the courtesy in this House as we show to the labour market, to provide for both permanent Taoiseach. and temporary appointments and to provide for promotion processes, and for those The Taoiseach: Is that what the Deputy is purposes take account of the need to maintain, asking? in the public interest, the integrity and probity of both the recruitment and selection processes Mr. Sargent: Will the Taoiseach be absent for for those services and to provide for Leaders’ Questions tomorrow? connected matters.

An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on Question put and declared carried. the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach: I have already stated that at Air Navigation and Transport (International some stage tomorrow I will be appearing before Conventions) Bill 2004 [Seanad]: Order for the Mahon tribunal. That was decided today and Report Stage. I must prepare for that. Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): Public Service Management (Recruitment and I move: “That Report Stage be taken now.” Appointments) Bill 2003: Financial Resolution. Question put and agreed to. Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Mr. D. Ahern): I move: Air Navigation and Transport (International That it is expedient to make provision for the Conventions) Bill 2004 [Seanad]: Report and imposition of such charges and the payment of Final Stages. such fees as may be charged by— Ms Shortall: I move amendment No. 1: (a) a body to be known as the Commission for Public Service Appointments In page 3, between lines 15 and 16, to insert the following: (b) a body to be known as the Public “(2) This Act and the Air Navigation and Appointments Service, or Transport Acts 1936 to 1990 may be cited as (c) the holder of a licence from the the Air Navigation and Transport Acts 1936 Commission for Public Service to 2004 and shall be read together as one.”. Appointments, I am disappointed, in light of discussions on in respect of any service carried out by each of Committee Stage last week, that the Minister for them under any Act of the present session to Transport has not considered any of the points reform the recruitment and appointment made. He gave us to understand that he would processes of the Civil Service and certain other examine them and, if necessary, table his own bodies in the public service and for that amendments. I was disappointed to see that he purpose, to provide for new management had no amendments on the list that was circulated structures to replace the Civil Service today. To what extent is he not correcting the Commissioners and Local Appointments technical problems with this Bill that were Commissioners, to establish the Commission pointed out on Committee Stage because he does for Public Service Appointments to oversee the not want the inconvenience of the Bill being implementation and development of those referred back to the Seanad? structures in the context of the public interest He indicated on Committee Stage that the and the need to uphold the probity of the Opposition made valid points and that he would recruitment and appointment process, to correct the omissions in this Bill in a future provide for an Office connected to that eurozone Bill. That is bad practice. We should Commission, to provide for the establishment deal with each Bill on its merits to ensure it is a of the Public Appointments Service as the good as possible. That is the purpose of recruitment and selection body for the Civil Committee Stage. It is bad practice not to deal Service and other bodies in the public service, with an obvious mistake or omission. It means an to introduce flexibility into the recruitment extra few hours and it would not be difficult to process by enabling the licensing by that get the Seanad to schedule this Bill again. Commission, in addition to the licensing of the The Minister should have been big enough to Public Appointments Service, of any part of admit there were minor difficulties that should those services to undertake their own have been corrected. I have suggested that in recruitment in respect of one or more classes page 3, between lines 15 and 16, we would correct of employees and, generally, to enable licence a technical omission by inserting a collective 601 Air Navigation and Transport 6 April 2004. Bill 2004: Report and Final Stages 602 citation with the existing Air Navigation Acts. are required but, purely for reasons of time, he is We should amend the Bill along these lines. not prepared to concede to them. Everyone on this side of the House has been more than co- Mr. Naughten: I endorse Deputy Shortall’s operative on this Bill in spite of the fact that the comments. When the Opposition takes the time Government has had a number of years in which and makes the effort to draft amendments to Bills to bring it forward. We are dealing with it at the and table them on Committee Stage, and the last minute but, as the Minister of State knows Minister gives a commitment to return with perfectly well, there would still be time this week amendments on Report Stage, it is disingenuous — the Bill could go to the Seanad tomorrow and of him not to do so and to refer to addressing the be wrapped up. issues in a further Bill purely to avoid going back It is bad practice to accept that there are faults to the Seanad in respect of the amendments. in a Bill and still allow it to be passed. It is not This type of procedure normally occurs in the the right way to handle legislation and I appeal to Upper House when it is dealing with a Bill and the Minister of State to consider accepting these the Minister is not prepared to come back to this amendments and bringing the Bill before the House with amendments. We are supposed to be Seanad tomorrow. We could still operate to the legislators. We are supposed to be examining the same time scale and we are more than happy to legislation on all sides of the House and, where facilitate that. I do not believe the deadline is that reasonable amendments are tabled, the Minister tight and if something of a technical nature needs should take note of them. We all want to facilitate to be changed, it can surely be done in the week the legislation and have it passed by 1 May, and after Easter week, since we will be here to deal it can be done within the time available. with the immigration Bill. I support Deputy Shortall’s technical amendment, which I hope the Minister of State Mr. Naughten: I support Deputy Shortall’s can accept. assertion that time is available. The Opposition has facilitated the Government in dealing with Minister of State at the Department of this legislation and has not caused undue delay. Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): However, the difficulty is that the Government The Minister for Transport regrets that he is has dragged its heels in bringing forward this Bill unable to be in the House this afternoon due to and is now putting a gun to the Opposition’s head the European Presidency meeting which is taking saying that it needs to have the Bill through by 1 place today. May and asking if the Opposition will facilitate it. However, when reasoned amendments are Mr. Naughten: Michael Shumacher is giving tabled, the Minister and his Department are not him driving lessons. prepared to accept them because they do not want to go through the rigmarole of going back Mr. Fahey: If Mr. Shumacher were giving to the Seanad. driving lessons, I am sure Deputy Naughten We can give the Minister a commitment that would be there too. our colleagues in the Seanad will facilitate the I take the point made by both Deputies. swift passage of these amendments in the House However, the urgency of concluding the Bill before the end of the week to ensure the before the Easter recess is so that Ireland will be legislation meets its target. in a position with the other EU member states to The Minister of State stated that a further Bill ratify the Montreal convention before the end of is proposed for later this year. Will he clarify what April in order that it will be part of European law the Minister for Transport stated? Will the before the enlargement of the Union on 1 May. legislation come forward later this year or in the The Bill has been through the Seanad and if autumn? There is a tendency for the Government amendments are made in the Da´il it will be to state that legislation is to come forward at a necessary, as Deputies are aware, to take it back certain season in the year, for example, in the to the Seanad. Therefore, the Bill would not be spring, summer or autumn, but we are not told in finalised before Easter. which year. That was typified in the House on the I can deal with several of the issues raised Order of Business in respect of the Rail Safety without the need to incorporate changes in the Bill which went through Committee Stage 12 text which was passed by the Seanad. In any case, months ago and was to be passed in the spring, I understand the Minister has already stated that yet the Taoiseach is now talking about the a similar short Bill to give effect to the 1997 Euro- summer. control revised convention will come before the Oireachtas later this year and will provide an Mr. Fahey: With the Easter recess, it would not opportunity to deal with remaining issues without be possible from a time point of view to go back delaying this Bill. I hope that is acceptable to to the Seanad, come back to the Da´il and have both Opposition spokespersons. the Bill signed by the Minister and the President. If major issues were involved, there is no question Ms Shortall: The Minister of State and the but that every effort would be made. However, Minister for Transport have accepted that we that is not the case and the technical matters can have a point and that these technical amendments be dealt with in the 1997 Euro-control Bill which 603 Air Navigation and Transport 6 April 2004. Bill 2004: Report and Final Stages 604

[Mr. Fahey.] House has sat after the order is laid before it, the will come before the House later this year — the order shall be annulled accordingly but without Deputy can take it that will be in the autumn. prejudice to the validity of anything previously The effect of the proposed amendment is that done thereunder. it would clarify that the Air Navigation and The amendment proposes that the normal Transport Bill would be read together with the convention be adhered to, whereby orders made previous Air Navigation and Transport Acts. by a Minister are laid before the Houses so that While it is a normal feature of Irish legislation Members, particularly Opposition Members, that Acts may be grouped together as a series, it have an opportunity to consider the orders and is not a requirement that they be so grouped, nor object to them, if appropriate. This is good does it affect the validity of any part of the Act or practice and this provision should have been Acts in question if they are not grouped together. included in the original Bill. I ask the Minister of However, in this case, the parliamentary counsel State to consider including it now. has advised that it would not be appropriate to group this Bill with the other Air Navigation Mr. Fahey: The amendment would oblige the Acts. This is because this Bill consolidates the law Minister to lay any order made under this Act concerning the Warsaw and Montreal before both Houses of the Oireachtas and give conventions. the House an opportunity to nullify those orders. The law referred to in the 1929 Warsaw The Bill envisages the Government making convention is currently included in Part 3 and the orders in three places, in sections 6(1) and 6(2) First Schedule of the Air Navigation and and in section 9. Both orders envisaged under Transport Act 1936. These are repealed in section section 6 are for the purpose of noting the current 11 of the Bill. The text of the 1929 convention is situation under the Montreal convention. An reproduced in the First Schedule of the Bill. The order under section 6(1) is for the purpose of 1955 and 1975 amendments to the Warsaw formally listing the countries and territories to convention were enacted in the Air Navigation which the convention applies and an order under and Transport Acts of 1959 and 1988. The text of section 6(2) is for the purpose of formally noting the Warsaw convention incorporating these changes to the monetary amounts under the amendments is reproduced in the Second convention. Schedule of the Bill. Consequently it is not Unlike the much earlier Warsaw convention, possible to link this Bill to any other air the Montreal convention includes a mechanism navigation Acts and, on this basis, I am sure the for adjusting those amounts to take account of House will agree the proposed amendment is inflation. If a majority of the states that are unnecessary. parties to the Montreal convention do not object to the changed amounts the higher figures will Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. apply to all states that have ratified the convention. There is no provision in the Ms Shortall: I move amendment No. 2: convention for any single state to opt out of those In page 4, between lines 32 and 33, to insert changes. It is not appropriate for the Oireachtas the following: to annul an order made under either of these subsections. The annulment would have no effect, “4.—Every Order under this Act shall be either on the list of states that are parties to the laid before each House of the Oireachtas as convention or on the monetary amounts soon as may be after it is made and, if a applicable within the convention. resolution annulling the Order is passed by An order under section 9 is for the purpose of either such House within the next twenty one extending the application of the convention to days on which that House has sat after the internal flights as well as to international flights. Order is laid before it, the Order shall be I accept, in principle, that this is an issue on which annulled accordingly, but without prejudice it would be legitimate for the Oireachtas to to the validity of anything previously done express its opinion. However, in practice most of thereunder.”. the provisions of the convention, including the This amendment proposes in page 4 to insert a liability limits, are already applied to all EU new section to safeguard the rights of this House airlines under EU Regulation No. 2027 of 1997 in respect of ministerial orders. In three places in and Regulation No. 889 of 2002, and this Bill, provision is made for the Minister to consequently apply to internal flights. Therefore, make orders on one matter or another. The the need for making the order will not arise. In standard practice is that where ministerial orders the circumstances I have outlined, I hope the are made, they are laid before the Houses. House will accept that this amendment is not However, that is not provided for in this necessary. legislation. I propose that we amend the Bill to state that every order under this Act shall be laid Ms Shortall: This, again, is a case of the before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as Minister of State not wanting to delay matters, may be after it is made and if a resolution while conceding that I have a point. The annulling the order is passed by either such established practice regarding ministerial orders House within the next 21 days on which that has served us well and should be maintained. It 605 Air Navigation and Transport 6 April 2004. Bill 2004: Report and Final Stages 606 is bad practice to omit the requirement to lay In the case of an inconsistency between the orders before the House from legislation. English and French texts of the Bill, section 5 In the two earlier subsections the orders would provides that the French text shall prevail. The not be of any consequence. Nevertheless, good section contains the most ridiculous sentence I practice should be adhered to. The fact that no have ever seen in legislation. It states: “The one will ever challenge the order is beside the French texts of those provisions are deposited in point. However, the provision is particularly the Archives of the Ministry for Foreign Affairs necessary in respect of section 9. of Poland, as provided for in the Warsaw The Minister of State is attempting to justify Convention and in that Convention as amended weak drafting. He is trying to deal with the Bill by Protocol No. 4 of Montreal, 1975.” I would not as quickly as possible and is not prepared to like to be in a hurry to get my hands on the accept the delay which referral of the Bill to the French text, if it is buried somewhere in the Seanad would entail. These amendments were depths of the Ministry for Foreign Affairs in tabled two weeks ago, giving sufficient time to Poland. This is ridiculous drafting. The French schedule debate of the Bill in the Da´il and text should either have been attached to the Bill Seanad. I accept that these are minor technical as a Schedule or laid before the Houses. In either amendments. However, where technical errors case, the chosen option should be stated in the and omissions are identified the Minister of State Bill. should accept that fact and facilitate correction, When I raised this point with the Minister for even if it involves a delay of a day or two. We Transport on Committee Stage, I was told that might as well close down the Oireachtas if the he had placed a copy of the French text in the Opposition may not have an input in the Oireachtas Library. However, this will not be formation of legislation, particularly when it is of clear to a person reading this legislation in ten a technical nature. years’ time. If the legislation can state that the French text is deposited in the Ministry for Mr. Naughten: Deputy Shortall has raised a Foreign Affairs in Poland, why can it not state it valid point. If the position of the Minister of State is available in the Oireachtas Library? Would were applied generally to legislation, the standard that not be more sensible? A more common provision regarding ministerial orders would practice would be to attach the French text as a never be included in legislation, because such Schedule to the Bill. orders are challenged extremely rarely. On that To state in the body of the Bill that it is in the basis, there would be no point in ever making Ministry for Foreign Affairs in Poland is such a provision. ridiculous and unacceptable. That should be dealt Reference to ministerial orders should be with. The Minister seemed to accept included in the Bill. The Opposition has 6 o’clock that the complaints I made on facilitated the Minister in bringing forward this Committee Stage were valid. legislation. Members on this side of the House Unfortunately, however, he has not seen fit to have examined the Bill and drafted amendments improve the Bill along the lines suggested and to to it. Although this amendment is technical in make it sensible rather than ridiculous as it is at nature, it can be agreed by both sides. It is not present. being accepted, purely for procedural reasons. When Opposition Members are prepared to Mr. Naughten: I support Deputy Shortall’s facilitate the Government in passing legislation, amendment. A huge mistake was made when it is disappointing that our amendments, which drafting this Bill in that the French text was not clarify the legislation and ensure the enactment attached as a Schedule. It should have been of the Bill, are treated in this way. attached as a Schedule when it took precedence over the legislation we passed. I do not know if Mr. Fahey: Deputy Shortall’s point is taken. Deputy Shortall is fluent in French, but I am not. However, there is a time factor of more than just The Department made a big mistake when one day. The amendment regarding the orders drafting this Bill by not furnishing to Members or under section 9 will be looked at favourably in attaching as a Schedule the original text which the Bill to be introduced later this year. I hope will supersede any other text attached to the Bill. that will be a fair compromise. The parliamentary counsel should have included it in the Bill. Ms Shortall: This is bad practice. The Minister said in his Second Stage speech that the Bill was consumer orientated. He said it Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. would make it easier for members of the public to take a case against an airline if they were Ms Shortall: I move amendment No. 3: involved in an accident or looking for In page 5, line 9, after “1975” to insert “, and compensation. However, if there is a dispute a copy of the said French text shall be laid about the translation, one must go to Poland to before both Houses of the Oireachtas by the find out what the French text states. Deputy Minister as soon as may be after the passing of Shortall’s amendment clarifies that and tries to this Act”. rectify the mistake of not attaching the French 607 Air Navigation and Transport 6 April 2004. Bill 2004: Report and Final Stages 608

[Mr. Naughten.] been a dispute between the French and English text to the Schedule when it supersedes the texts in the 75 year history of the Warsaw current text of the Bill. convention. I cannot believe this is an issue.

Mr. Fahey: I can see a major problem for the Ms Shortall: That is not the point. The point is electorate of County Roscommon. There are about the daft drafting, not about disputes different types of technical issues. These are between the English and French versions. The historic documents which will not be changed in Minister should be straightforward about it. the future. The amendment would require the Where the French text prevails, a copy of it Minister to lay a copy of the French text of the should either be attached or laid in the Warsaw convention before the Oireachtas. That Oireachtas Library. It would be better if the Bill would be unprecedented. The French text of did not refer to the Ministry for Foreign Affairs these conventions is available on the website of in Poland. By including that in a section of the the International Civil Aviation Authority. Bill we are indicating that is the only place one can get it. At some point in the future, in the Ms Shortall: Why did the Minister not state event of a serious incident, people will want to that in the Bill? know where they can get it. According to the legislation, the place it can be got is the Ministry Mr. Fahey: As the Minister said, a copy of the for Foreign Affairs in Poland. It is ridiculous to documents will be placed in the Oireachtas have that in the Bill. The drafters of the Bill Library. These are historic documents which will should have done the sensible and practical thing not be changed in the future. The Deputies of either putting it in the Library or attaching it. should be sensible and accept that it is It would have made the Bill more sensible. unnecessary to include the proposed amendment in the Bill. Mr. Fahey: The purpose of the reference to the text in Poland was to clarify which text we were Mr. Naughten: With all due respect, this is not talking about. They were not referred to in the the first time I have dealt with an international legislation which has been superseded. That is the convention. I have dealt with such conventions only reason for the reference to the text being from a number of Departments. It is almost taken in Poland. for granted that when conventions come before the House we on this side of the House will Ms Shortall: That makes it worse. Which text rubber-stamp them. The international convention has been placed in the Library? is signed and we cannot undo that. However, Mr. Fahey: The text referred to. Departments and Ministers can sometimes learn something from what is introduced in the House. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. When the Minister replied on Second Stage, he complimented some of the Opposition speeches. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Amendment No. In many cases Ministers who signed international 4. Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 are cognisant. conventions on behalf of this country changed Amendments Nos. 4, 5 and 6 may be taken their opinion about them as a result of what was together by agreement. The Deputy may move discussed here. A Schedule should be attached to only amendment No. 4, but she may speak to the legislation which is superseded by a text lodged three amendments. in the Library or wherever. That is standard practice. The Schedule is always attached to Ms Shortall: I move amendment No. 4: legislation dealing with EU or international agreements. That clarifies queries which may In page 5, line 10, to delete “notified in Iris arise. Oifigiu´il”. It may be the case that no one from This represents more weak drafting. It relates to Roscommon will raise questions. However, we do the making of orders and notifying those in Iris not know that for certain. People from Galway Oifigiu´il. The standard practice under the may be involved in an incident at some stage in Statutory Instruments Acts is that orders are the future where they or their families may have made and automatically published in Iris to make a compensation claim against an Oifigiu´il. There is no need to include in the operator. If this legislation had been in place legislation reference to publishing them in Iris prior to the incident on 11 September, the one Oifigiu´il. The fact that it is referred to indicates Irish family involved could have taken a case in that the purpose is to bypass the Statutory Ireland. However, it could not do that because Instruments Acts and publish them in Iris the legislation had not been enacted. It is relevant Oifigiu´il. Is that the intention? in this country, although I hope we do not have I hope it is not but the Bill, as drafted, indicates to use it. that it is. Normal practice under the Statutory Instruments Acts is that it happens automatically. Mr. Fahey: The Warsaw convention only came Therefore, suspicions are raised if there is explicit into being in November of that year so it is reference to publishing it where that is not irrelevant as regards 11 September. There has not required. For that reason I propose to delete the 609 Air Navigation and Transport 6 April 2004. Bill 2004: Report and Final Stages 610 words “notified in Iris Oifigiu´il” in the three most of the provisions of the Montreal sections. Convention already apply to European airlines wherever they operate, there is no obvious need Mr. Fahey: It is clear from the subsection that to make an order under section 9 to apply the orders must be printed and published as well as convention to international flights. being noted in Iris Oifigiu´il. The provisions of the Statutory Instruments Act will apply to orders Ms Shortall: Dealing with legislation in this made under the Bill. There is no intention to manner is bringing the House into disrepute. short circuit these provisions. There are a number of technical problems with Section 3(1) of the Statutory Instruments Act this Bill. They are minor but they are still was introduced by the 1955 amendment and reads problems. The Minister of State and the Minister as follows: have accepted the need to amend the Bill. (1) The following provisions shall apply in However, they are saying they will not do so now. respect of every statutory instrument to They will proceed with a flawed Bill even though which this Act primarily applies— they are aware of the flaws, as they have conceded on a number of occasions. That is bad (a) within seven days after the making practice. It also brings the House into disrepute. thereof, a copy thereof shall be sent to It means today’s debate and the debate on each of the following, namely, the Committee Stage last week are rendered National Library of Ireland, the Law meaningless by the Minister. We were just going Library, Four Courts, Dublin, the King’s through the motions of having the different Inns Library, Dublin, the Incorporated Stages even though the Minister had no intention Law Society of Ireland, the Dublin of considering amendments. Chamber of Commerce, the Cork It would be one thing if the Minister told Chamber of Commerce, the Limerick Members that there was no basis for the Chamber of Commerce, the Waterford amendments. However, on Committee Stage and Chamber of Commerce, the Galway again on Report Stage he said the amendments Chamber of Commerce and the Southern were necessary, that the Bill was flawed and Law Association, Cork, needed to be amended but that it would not be (b) as soon as may be after it is made, amended now but in a forthcoming Bill. If that is notice of the making thereof and of the not making fools of all of us, I do not know what place where copies thereof may be is. I reject the approach the Minister has taken obtained shall be published in the Iris with this Bill. He has been highly irresponsible in Oifigiu´il, doing so. The problems should have been dealt with when there was ample time. When I tabled (c) on and from the date of the issue of these technical amendments two weeks ago, there the Iris Oifigiu´il containing the notice, was time to deal with them in this House and to copies of the statutory instrument shall be refer them to the Seanad. The Minister is kept at the place specified in the notice bringing the House into disrepute by rushing the and may be obtained there, Bill through like this and is, in effect, giving us (d) as soon as may be after it is made, it the fingers. shall, notwithstanding that it is liable to be annulled, be printed under the Mr. Fahey: If there was any significance in the superintendence of the Stationery Office. changes being proposed, there might be a case for dealing with the issue, notwithstanding the time The words “notified in Iris Oifigiu´il”, in effect, constraints involved. However, they are of a repeat the provisions of the Statutory technical nature and make no material difference Instruments Act. However, they do not lessen the to the Bill. The Deputy has been given an applicability of the legislation. Any orders made assurance that the technical changes that are under the Bill will be published in the normal necessary will be made later in the year. Given way. the fact that they are of a minor, technical nature, Ms Shortall: Then what is the purpose of the it is not important to make the changes now. It reference? would necessitate a delay in the Bill and leave Ireland unable to ratify the convention before 1 Mr. Fahey: I cannot accept the amendment May. because of the urgent need to enact the Bill. The necessary technical changes will be made in the Bill to be introduced later this year. If it Ms Shortall: What is the purpose of the was a major issue or if they made any material reference? difference in the text, there would not be a problem but that is not the case. Mr. Fahey: I will have to get clarification on that. The Minister will introduce another Bill Question, “That the words proposed to be later this year in which amendments will be deleted stand,” put and declared carried. included. The concerns expressed by Deputy Shortall will be looked at again at that time. As Amendment declared lost. 611 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 612

Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 not moved. with the political process — but also selectively in different elections. Bill received for final consideration and passed. Mr. N. Ahern: From where does that right come? Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed). Mr. Boyle: I can give the Minister of State the 1999 figures. In the 1999 local elections there Question again proposed: “That the Bill be were 25,000 spoiled votes, in respect of 40% of now read a Second Time.” which the ballot papers were blank. In the Mr. Boyle: When the debate was adjourned last European elections held on the same day there Thursday, I was speaking about the need to were 46,500 votes deemed ineligible. In respect of address the question of secrecy within the 70% of these the ballot papers were blank. One electronic system, particularly as it relates to the does not need to be an Einstein to work out that source code. There are a number of areas in the blank ballot papers were returned by those which the secrecy of the ballot and the confidence who chose to abstain selectively from the various that people can have in our voting system are elections which took place on that day. exposed by this system and the legislation the Government is attempting to foist upon the Mr. N. Ahern: That is not an interpretation House. with which I would necessarily agree. The source code is probably the most important issue. The source code represents the Mr. Boyle: Blank ballot papers mean electronic DNA of what a computer programme abstentions. Electors had a series of voting papers does and how it does it. If openly available, it is and they chose to fill some in while leaving others possible to scrutinise if it does properly what it is empty. They could do this in a paper system but meant to do. The fact that the Government has their ability to do so in an electronic system will chosen to allow a commercial firm to retain the be severely compromised. copyright of this source code, a firm which The real lesson the Government needs to learn operates outside this jurisdiction, on the basis in foisting this dangerously divisive citizenship referendum on us is that in the referendum in that the code is a trade secret does nothing to add 1999, a non-contentious referendum on local to confidence in this form of voting. This is in government, there were 110,000 ineligible votes marked contrast to the approach taken in the on the same day as the local and European Australian capital of Canberra. Its electoral elections. Unfortunately, the Department of the commission produced a source code, at far less Environment, Heritage and Local Government cost than the Government has managed, but has has never released figures on how many of the made that source code open source, which means ballot papers were blank but the likelihood is that copyright is vested in the Australian Capital the trend in the local and European elections on Territory Electoral Commission, not the hands of the same day was repeated to a greater extent. a private company. This was done according to I would like to see how the Government will the electoral commission to ensure appropriate have an electronic voting system in place on 11 transparency, a term that does not find resonance June with four sets of ballot papers on the same with the Government but it is important to day. The possibility that electors may want the indicate this as it is something voters would like right to abstain selectively, depending on the to see attached to a process which involves the election or referendum in which they choose to casting of their votes in future elections. It is participate, has not been thought through. unfortunate the Government has taken this Previous speakers have mentioned a third proprietary approach which allows the vendor of level, the ability of the visually impaired to mark the system, Nedap, to hold onto its copyright of their votes properly and secretly. It might be said the source code which as of now is not available that with the paper ballot there was always a for proper scrutiny for possible flaws. degree of sharing the voting intentions of a I have mentioned the second area involved — visually impaired person with a third party but secrecy for those voters who wish to abstain, the electronic system increases the lack of particularly in multiple elections. The secrecy. Government wants the first widespread use of the electronic voting system on 11 June, the day of Mr. N. Ahern: It is the same. the local and European elections. We heard on the Order of Business today a poorly thought-out Mr. Boyle: Several more people are involved. proposal for a constitutional referendum which If we are talking about using information will only complicate the introduction of a new technology in a more advanced way, a means voting system. It means voters will have four could have been found to ensure a tactile or ballot papers on the screen and the Government auditory response which would enable the does not seem to realise the extent to which this visually impaired to use technology to cast their will affect people’s right to abstain, not just from votes. The Minister might say the intention is to the voting process — the natural right to abstain encourage such persons to use postal votes but to register an objection to what they see wrong that is reverting back to the old technology. The 613 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 614 point the Government seems to be missing is that people vote, although it relates to the system of people with disabilities want to live voting rather than the mechanics involved. independently and express their intentions in the Fianna Fa´il’s arguments about voting in 1959 and same way as other citizens. We should give them 1968 centred on the need to simplify the system. every opportunity to do so but unfortunately the It argued that the people would not be able to Government’s proposal does not allow this. continually look at the complexities of the STV- Moving away from the issue of secrecy, there PR system and produce the appropriate response is also the question of the accuracy of the system. — meaning that occasionally Fianna Fa´il would Those of us who are aware of the potential of not serve in government. The reality is that the information technology wish to see it progress people rejected Fianna Fa´il Governments quite and used more widely in society. However, we emphatically. also know that it carries significant risks. Any The Government may need to think about this computer based system can produce different issue because it wants to change the Constitution outputs from similar inputs which harks back to in otherwise very warped ways but the likelihood the fact that the source code is secret and vested is that if such a proposal for electronic voting was in a third party operating outside the jurisdiction. put to the people, it would be rejected because of The security of the system depends on this the loss of confidence. The Government is failing knowledge. to introduce a system in which the people can We have been assured as far as we can be by a have faith. At the end of the day there will be a Minister who, I am certain, is not technically question mark. I do not ascribe it to attempts by capable of making any argument in relation to his Fianna Fa´il to gerrymander the system. History brief. We argued this point last week. The and destiny will take care of this. security methods endorsed to date do not We are already set on a course where the represent a full testing of the system. In the first people are choosing to vote differently. It is instance, it seems the testing only covered the important, therefore, that our voting system, the possibility of attack by unauthorised persons who bedrock on which the people express their were not defined. It did not seem to take into support for a system of representative democracy, account the fact that there were risks posed by is one in which they can have confidence. I fear authorised persons at different stages of the the Government, not only by the legislation it has process — staff at storage depots, maintenance introduced but, more importantly, the method by staff and the workers of Nedap/Powervote. which it has chosen to introduce it — what it has This reopens the security argument. At least referred to as a consultation period and debate with the paper based system possible interference that preceded it — is attempting to make a was restricted to the time before the vote was placed in a box which was sealed and significant change in the nature of our democracy. subsequently opened and the period after the box I hope there are some, either within the was opened at an election count. With the Government parties or among the individuals electronic system, the potential for abuse by third who comprise the Government, who will think parties is far greater because there will be several hard before legislation of this type is passed and additional stages, and the likelihood is that the that we will not have a fiasco in how the mandate Government has not tested any of these grounds. is sought for local and European bodies on 11 It has certainly not tested the procedures for June. storing, transporting, setting up and dismantling e-voting systems because all the arguments made Mr. Andrews: The debate on this issue has were made after the Government stated been taking place for some time. I am sorry appropriate security tests had been carried out. Deputy Boyle is leaving as I wanted to address The failure to ask what security tests had been some of the issues he raised. Perhaps he will listen done and the extent to which they had been done in his office. He referred to the referenda held in and what they had showed only underlines the 1959 and 1968, times when a referendum was held lack of confidence many on this side of the House at the same time as other elections. It is ironic have in the Government’s proposals. that the Green Party is criticising the Minister for To a small extent, we have seen the company’s Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy machines in operation. Last week there was a McDowell, for proposing to hold a referendum local referendum in the Netherlands in which the on the same day as other elections and at the voting system used was not exactly the same but same time praising the one occasion when it the same company and the same technology we occurred and acknowledging the people are more are supposed to be buying, technology in which than capable of separating issues on a given day. we are meant to have confidence, was employed. The referendum was not a success. There were Ms Enright: That is appreciating the fact that it difficulties. It involved testing in an actual vote. is valid. The Government needs to respond but it is not willing to do so. Mr. Andrews: The point was that they were The Government, in which Fianna Fa´il is the able to separate the issues involved. My criticism majority party, is coming round to a strange is that the Opposition is not generous enough to irony. This is its latest attempt to change the way acknowledge the people’s capacity to distinguish 615 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 616

[Mr. Andrews.] I can question is whether the Opposition, in the issues involved if we were to proceed with the pursuing this objection, is doing so with any referendum on citizenship on 11 June. degree of honesty. I would also have liked to refer Deputy Boyle On a routine basis, one of the most irritating to an historical truth on what he calls aspects of voting in this Chamber is when a gerrymandering. It was the Fine Gael-Labour member of the Opposition calls for a vote Party Government which tried to gerrymander through the lobbies. This is done because, the 1977 election but it went horribly wrong. It allegedly, the Whip of the Opposition has formed tried to create optimum seat gains for itself by an opinion that the computer system is not changing the number of seats in various correct. Somehow or other the Opposition constituencies. The effect was that Fianna Fa´il satisfies itself that there is a serious danger that won three out of four seats in many some injustice is about to be done and that the constituencies and gained a huge majority, which democratic will of the Chamber is not reflected generally was probably not great for it. To say in the computer vote read-out. Therefore, it calls Fianna Fa´il had exclusive control over this issue for a vote through the lobbies. We waste another was a distortion. ten minutes of parliamentary time, which is at In much of the recent debate there has been premium, walking through the gates and having reference to Luddism. I have not had time to look our names ticked off in this Stone Age fashion. up who Mr. Ludd was. Apparently, there was a Any right thinking person knows perfectly well group of English rebels who believed the reason this is being done is to try to annoy, industrialisation was terrible for England. irritate, embarrass, or destabilise the Various stories emerged of people lying on Government’s position. In other words, the railway tracks to stop trains. They were objecting objection to the voting system is designed only to to all manifestations of industrialisation. Luddites pursue another political end. It is not in itself an are considered to be those against progress in objection to the outcome of the vote, rather it is general and afraid of the consequences of change. used to try to destabilise the Government. It is The description is fairly safe and accurate for the used as a stick with which to beat the opponents of this measure as they are not being Government. Therefore, I argue strongly that the honest in their objections. In many cases the same motivation and incentive lies behind objections are clearly the result of a particular objections to this Bill. Fears are being stoked political agenda, evidence of an axe to grind. about the computers to be used, the potential for There is no strong argument made, just possible hacking and the research which went into the arguments. That Deputy Boyle referred to the creation of the codes. In all of this, there is no referenda held in 1959 and 1968 proves the doubt that the Opposition is motivated by the weakness of the argument. The Green Party is desire to find a stick with which to beat the hoping that by bringing so much doubt to the Government, as Opposition Members would system it will be a case of death by 1,000 cuts. accept if they were honest. I challenge the There is nothing particularly damaging that it can Opposition to call a walking vote when the Bill is suggest, except to continually hark on about the voted upon. Shame on them if they do so, dangers it might pose. because it would expose this situation for what it In today’s edition of The Irish Times there is a is. The Opposition is playing games with a serious good article which makes the argument very issue, something to which I greatly object. clear. It refers to the fact that on a daily basis Deputy Boyle referred to the abstention votes 747s lift off into the sky. We have all bought into of those who enter voting booths with their ballot them. We have all travelled. We are not afraid papers but do not vote. The Deputy suggested that they travel on auto pilot across the ocean. such abstention votes are somehow sacred and Nobody appears to concern themselves about should be protected as if they are a healthy part this. Nobody appears to concern themselves with of Irish democracy. I do not agree. To allege that the fact that the passage of aircraft over airports this is worthy of protection is dysfunctional. If is controlled by computers in general at air traffic somebody has gone to the extent of going to a control. The safety of our person would be polling station, had his or her name signed off the considered to be endangered by computers in this register, entered the polling booth with his or her area but people do not have this fear. ballot paper and then found no candidate to At the same time we are supposed to accept satisfy his or her political aims, something is the argument from the Opposition that there is a wrong. We should not legislate for those who grave danger that these computer systems will cannot find a candidate. either be hacked into or damaged by those with In the last general election some 17 candidates a mission to destroy the system. I do not think were included in the ballot paper in my that will happen. I trust computers. I cannot look constituency of Du´ n Laoghaire. I cannot believe behind what is proposed by the Government in there was not some candidate who would reflect terms of the computer technology involved. I the views of the vast majority of voters in the have to assume that the company hired is doing constituency. Nonetheless, it seems to be the view the right thing. I have to assume that the tests of Opposition Members that we should legislate were carried out in a professional manner and for this type of dysfunctionality. If anything, we accept that the technology used will be safe. What could perhaps provide a button on the voting 617 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 618 machine to reflect the need of people to abstain occasions, once for the general election and once from the system because they do not buy into for the Nice treaty. All of those I spoke to, of all Irish democracy or because there are not enough ages, seem to have had little or no difficulty using political parties to represent their views, which I the system. find hard to believe. When one considers the opportunities we have It is a pity we should make this change to the in our personal lives, whether setting the video electoral law without cross-party support. In recorder to record tonight’s “Oireachtas Report”, general, it is better to make changes to the which we would all want to watch in omnibus procedure of electoral law with the support of all version at the end of the week, or a match, which political parties because it goes to the core of the is more likely, we all engage on an ongoing basis way we run our democracy. There should be no with the new electronic media. If we were serious need for this lengthy debate or to repeatedly about e-voting, we would be able to vote using explain the safety of the system. It is a pity this is our mobile phones on a constituency based necessary but that is the nature of politics today. electronic register for which we would all have a It reflects the division within the Opposition in PIN number, in the same we have such numbers regard to the upcoming local elections and the for bank accounts. However, we are taking just desire to achieve some kind of prominence on one small step in the direction of modernising our issues that interest the people, but it does not rather antiquated voting system. reflect any strongly held belief. We should not return to the system of a We could set up a Ministry for conspiracy shouted vote which operated in County Clare and theories, given the number in circulation. If it is elsewhere, whereby a voter stood at the door of not a case of the grassy knoll, it is Princess the polling station and shouted out his or her Diana’s or Frank Sinatra’s driver. preference. The Government is trying to bring this process forward in order that we will engage Ms Enright: Or a case of “was there a meeting with the electronic systems in a reasonably or not?” proactive way. However, much mischievous comment has been made in this regard. Members, Mr. Andrews: The Taoiseach will have his who otherwise have made fine contributions in opportunity to explain that to the public in due this Chamber on other legislation, have been course. In any case, whether there was a meeting gratuitous in the way they have insulted the is irrelevant, although I would be happy to discuss Minister, and tendentious in the way they have the matter in another forum. However, I wish to put forward arguments about what the Minister discuss the conspiracy issue and the suggestion and Government are trying to do. If we in Fianna that Fianna Fa´il has, somehow, stitched this up to Fa´il were so good at conspiracies, we would be try to ensure hegemony for eternity. It is said to able to rule by overall majority. This has escaped be a great plan by Fianna Fa´il to rub out all us and the experts agree it is unlikely we will Opposition parties in order that Fianna Fa´il return to it in the short term, although, naturally, Deputies would fill the Chamber and there would we will work towards it. be no Opposition, perhaps with the exception of We are concerned with providing opportunities Deputy Enright. The Opposition suggests, for voters, particularly the young, to exercise however, that it has cleverly found this out and their franchise. It is difficult. I spend a good deal has blown our cover. The suggestion is silly and of my time talking to transition year students, does not stand up. As the debate continues, fewer junior certificate students, university students and Members say such things because they sound people in ordinary communities, trying to give increasingly ridiculous. them reasons why they ought to vote. This should be advanced as one more reason they, as Mr. Carey: I speak on the Bill neither as a members of one of the most modern communities madly committed electronic voting expert with a in the western world which is wide open to vested interest in a computer company or voting globalisation and embracing change at a fantastic machine, nor a member of the club of tallymen. I rate, should surely give them opportunities. know from what she said recently on radio that I do not believe the argument that older Deputy Enright was a member of that profession, persons, even the elderly, cannot engage in the as, indeed, was the Minister of State, Deputy process of electronic voting. In Dublin city Noel Ahern. libraries, for example, there are many elderly I come from a background in teaching. When I persons who regularly e-mail their sons and began teaching junior infants, I often had to use daughters living abroad or elsewhere in the an abacus. By the time I left teaching in 1997, country. They engage with the senior help line we had, thankfully, moved on to calculators and and are able to access the Internet. We should computers. It is a question of moving with the not be looking down our noses and deciding they times. There is no suggestion of any kind of could not possibly do this. conspiracy other than this. The introduction of electronic voting will, as My only reservation is that in talking about has been stated by others, help those persons who electronic voting, we are only moving one step mistakenly spoil their vote. The Minister of State, beyond the manual paper voting system. I have Deputy Noel Ahern, and I share a constituency. used the electronic voting system on two I have been disappointed and often appalled at 619 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 620

[Mr. Carey.] dealt with in the last general election. Certain the level of spoiled votes in each election in our persons used the issue as a means of raising their constituency and others throughout the country. own profile, the reason I am concerned about If one has an opportunity to examine the voting holding the referendum on 11 June. When he paper, one will find that the vote has been spoiled spoke earlier in the House the Taoiseach stated by mistake. With electronic voting that will not it would not happen but neither he nor any other be possible and will not happen to the same party leader is truly in a position to say what will extent. That is another good reason we ought to be said by individual candidates on the issue. promote it. That kind of abuse is appalling, the reason I have I was in the RTE studio on the night of the first concerns about the referendum being held on the counts in the last general election. I pitied Nora same day as the elections. Such abuse by elected Owen because of the manner in which the results representatives or persons purporting to become were outlined to her and her colleagues. The elected representatives cannot be tolerated. It is changes made in the system will make it easier not about whether the people will understand the for all of us who, sooner or later, will have to issue but about how the issue may be used and listen to the news of whether our vote has gone abused for self-promotion. up or down. At least there will be time to prepare I do not have a fear of change. I am not for that moment. Those tied to the tally system familiar with the history of the Luddites or Mr. might well have an opportunity of analysing the Ludd but Deputy Andrews gave the House a pattern of voting which is extremely important. brief introduction to the subject. We must ensure There has been endless argument about the transparency in the system and that is my validity and accuracy of the machines. No matter concern. how often it is said, one either believes or not that On the point of calling for a vote by walking this stand-alone machine is accurate and tamper- through the lobbies in this House, it is important proof. It is about as likely that one can tamper to note that it is a rule of the House and is with the machine as one can go around the permissible. I was not a Member of the House country tampering with every single ATM when the system was changed. The rule for machine; it is possible but highly unlikely. For this calling for such votes is in place and Members are reason we should try to ensure in the comments entitled to use it. From my recollection of what made by us from now on we reinforce the has happened in the House on previous confidence of the electorate in this new system occasions, it has been used to highlight the which is tried and trusted and has been in use Opposition’s objection to particular issues or elsewhere and in this country. The fear is highlight their seriousness. I do not believe it has unfounded. been abused and Members are entitled to use it. I am not an expert on whether the argument The Ceann Comhairle has the final say in about the verifiable paper trail stands up. I do not allowing the Whips’ request to vote by walking pretend to understand all of the implications. I through the lobbies. There should not be criticism have listened to speakers from both sides of the of the use of the system in the House. A argument. However, there are sufficient correlation cannot be drawn with our objections safeguards in the legislation and the mechanism to electronic voting. I do not see the connection of the machines to prevent tampering. the Deputy was trying to make. In the manual system a vote is cast by marking Deputy Carey is not now present in the the ballot paper and putting into the ballot box. Chamber but in answer to his point about moving A conspiracy theorist could say that perhaps the with the times, I do not have any such objection box has no or a false bottom, and that it could be but I do have an objection to just teaching tampered with on its way to the counting centre. children to use calculators in schools. I would We all know that this is unlikely to happen prefer if they learned to do addition and because we work on the basis of trust, although subtraction on an abacus and their fingers and by ballot boxes have been mislaid and sometimes using tables but I am sure that is not the point he lost. intended to make. The paper trail can be established by a visit to Deputy Carey also expressed the notion that the District Court. The proposed system provides we should move and progress further with the for an accurate transfer of one’s vote which is not electronic voting system at a later date by the use the case under the current system. of pin numbers, for example. I warn that if we progress further than this and consider the Ms Enright: Deputy Andrews expressed his possibility of voting by means of telephone text disappointment that Deputy Boyle had left the or e-mail, there is a possibility of votes being sold. Chamber and I must say the same about Deputy This matter was examined in the United States, in Andrews. He raised a number of issues with either California or Florida. I could sell my PIN which I will deal. number to Enda Kenny and he could use it to I do not think Fine Gael or anyone on this side vote effectively. We should be careful about of the House has ever doubted the capacity of progressing because the system is not as simple the people to distinguish between the issues. With or as clear as stated by Deputy Carey. regard to the proposed referendum on Deputy Carey also referred to the tally system. citizenship, my core concern is how this issue was I was a tally person but will not shed too many 621 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 622 tears at its passing. The Deputy said he pitied an affront to the democratic will of the Nora Owen because of the situation in which she people; found herself. That is a relevant point. I have — urges the authorities on both sides of the been in the House when a seat was lost but if one Border to ensure that the full rigours of is involved in politics, one learns to get on with the law are used to counter those who matters. The feelings of politicians do not need to engage in the destructive agenda of be taken into account when considering the paramilitarism and sectarianism; system. What we are most concerned with is the openness and transparency of the system from — calls on the members of all paramilitary the perspective of the electorate. groups to end all illegal activities and to Deputy Andrews referred to the Opposition disperse, thus allowing their organisations using this issue as a stick with which to beat the to become a thing of the past; and Government. I suggest to him that there is no shortage of sticks with which to beat the — having regard to the fact that the IRA Government that we do not need to use this operates within this jurisdiction and system to do so. I draw his attention to the claims to be the successors of those who psychological service, special needs, the widow’s fought for Irish independence calls, in pension, the condition of schools, the withdrawal particular, on members of all sections- of medical cards, hospital waiting lists, the second wings of the IRA to accept this motion coming of 2,000 gardaı´ and the spiralling serious and to act accordingly.” crime rate. There are plenty of sticks available. This is a reasonable and timely motion as we We do not need to jump on this issue as one with approach the sixth anniversary of the Good which to beat the Government. Friday Agreement. It sends out a strong message from the democratically elected assembly of the Debate adjourned. Republic of Ireland that, while we are pleased with the political progress made since the Good Private Members’ Business. Friday Agreement, it is time for a demonstrable and exclusive commitment to the democratic ———— process in the conduct of the affairs of Northern Ireland. Paramilitary Organisations: Motion. On 22 May 1998 the people spoke unequivocally for peace and democracy alone Mr. Kenny: I move: and I am certain that remains their view today. “That Da´il E´ ireann: The Fine Gael Party has always 7 o’clock believed passionately in a peaceful — recalls that the Good Friday Agreement, and democratic solution to the overwhelmingly endorsed by the people conflict in Northern Ireland. In government and of this island speaking freely and opposition, through Sunningdale and Anglo-Irish collectively in referenda held on 22 May Agreements, we worked hard to make progress 1998, reaffirmed “a total and absolute on Northern Ireland issues. As the Taoiseach will commitment to exclusively democratic acknowledge, we have never made capital out of and peaceful means of resolving Northern Ireland, although there were plenty of differences on political issues”; occasions and reasons for doing so. I recognise — regrets the failure to make any significant the contribution all Governments have made to political progress in Northern Ireland this process over the past 20 years. since the November Assembly elections As far as the Fine Gael Party has always been and believes that the continued operation concerned, there is room in this country for one of illegal paramilitary organisations, army alone, namely, the legitimate armed forces North and South, and their ongoing of the State, the Defence Forces established by involvement in paramilitary, criminal and this party when we founded the State. The one sectarian activities is a huge obstacle to true O´ glaigh na hE´ ireann is the force which exists the restoration of the institutions; to defend and protect the State, not those — deplores the recent terrorist atrocity in endorsed by somebody known as P. O’Neill Madrid which reminds us of the horrific which exist to subvert it. consequences of terrorist activities; Mr. Morgan: It is not the British army either. — notes the comments of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Mr. Kenny: It is extraordinary that, at a time Reform about the continued involvement when Ireland holds the Presidency of one of the of paramilitary organisations in criminal most sophisticated and powerful political, social acts on both sides of the Border and the and economic blocs in the world, Members of this Minister’s assertions as to the purpose of democratically elected Parliament have these activities; associations with a private army which has — believes that the continued existence and exerted its particular lethal form of pressure operation of paramilitary organisations is when democratic methods have not favoured it. I 623 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 624

[Mr. Kenny.] Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, find it deplorable, as a democrat and the leader in their capacities as chairman of the Justice and of Fine Gael, the united Ireland party, that Home Affairs Council and the European Union Members of this House have a perfectly Presidency, respectively, they are working in that symbiotic relationship with one of the most vile field. I hope the question of sharing intelligence and cowardly paramilitary organisations the and information is addressed in a way which world has known. ensures the perpetrators of terrorist crimes are Jean McConville’s son related this week how at brought to justice. least a dozen masked individuals came to take his I noted the comments of the Taoiseach and the mother from her small children at bath-time for Minister on continued paramilitary activity and questioning. Those interrogators and their criminality on both sides of the Border. I suggest successors have yet to declare that Jean to them that wrapping themselves publicly in the McConville was not an informer and that the only tricolour is of little effect in bringing anybody to code she had broken was to show some humanity book. The paramilitaries have not gone away and to a dying British soldier. Someone knows who will never go away without decisive action and pulled the trigger and ordered her murder and the full rigour of the law being used with targeted someone should clear her name of the accusation precision against them on both sides of the of being an informer. Border. It is an affront to the democratic will of For the past ten years we have had relative the people that they continue to exist, not to peace on this island. Unlike me and many others, mention operate, and an outrage to our there are teenagers today who do not remember sensibility that Members of this House who have what it was like in the bleak days of Greysteel, a symbiotic relationship with paramilitarism Teebane and Enniskillen. The deplorable Madrid occasionally lecture us on human rights, ethics bombings brought home to them and all of us the and standards. They do the House and the people kind of murderous threat with which the Irish no justice. people on all sides lived for 30 years of the In the Ireland of 2004 there should be no need Troubles. We lived the terror and its for baseball bats, balaclavas and broken legs. In consequences, not just for the generation of the this matter the Minister for Justice, Equality and time but also for generations to come. Law Reform must ensure the forces of law and The stories of small children waiting long into order are supplied with the resources necessary to the night at cre`ches in the poorer Madrid suburbs put known criminal organisations associated with for parents who would never collect them were paramilitary organisations out of business. harrowing for all to hear and all parents to The dynamics of politics in Northern Ireland understand. Those children and their damaged have changed radically following the November lives are part of the enduring legacy of the Assembly elections and the arrival centre stage of Madrid bombers, just as the families who make the DUP, on one side, and Sinn Fe´in, on the up Justice for the Forgotten or the Omagh other. The motion recognises the changed relatives are part of the legacy of political political landscape which has resulted from the violence here. DUP receiving a vastly increased mandate on a It is high time that we placed the needs of platform of refusing to participate in a power victims centre stage. Voiceless people such as sharing government while the republican families and relatives of the 31 victims of the movement remained active. This brings a new Omagh atrocity must be supported. I look reality to Northern Ireland politics and the forward with interest to the details of the British political dimension on the island. We want the Government’s plans for a truth and reconciliation Good Friday Agreement implemented in full but commission which might help such people it is clear this cannot and will not happen unless achieve some level of closure. one of its core principles, the absolute As the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law commitment to exclusively democratic and Reform is aware, I met the families of victims on peaceful means, is upheld. a number of occasions. When I asked one man Since the elections, the British Government has his views on a truth and reconciliation been consistent and resolute on the need for commission, he stated he did not disagree with paramilitaries to end their activities. It is the proposal or fine rhetoric but he also asked appropriate that we too send a strong message. It if he was expected to put his arms around the is what the people want and demand. I support perpetrator, say he forgave them and walk away the setting up of public inquiries as outlined in with a picture of his dead wife who was blown the recent Cory report. It is absolutely imperative through the shutters of a shop. When one asks that the truth about collusion in killings in the victims what they want, they say they want Northern Ireland be known and made known. truth, which we can all support. While the IRA may not be blowing up members As the World Trade Centre bombings of 2001 of the security forces, it is still involved in violent and the recent Madrid bombings show, terrorism and illegal activities such as trafficking and knows no borders. It is critically important, racketeering. There are also abductions such as therefore, that we have international co- the Tohill case. This group is actively involved operation in tackling and eradicating the terror in recruiting and training new members, a pretty threat. In fairness to the Taoiseach and the unusual step for maintaining the apparatus of a 625 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 626 private army if this army has no future, only a one looks at the Government amendment, the past. As the Minister for Justice, Equality and main point almost exactly coincides with the call Law Reform has reminded the House, the Real from the three parties in opposition, as it calls on IRA is in the business of planning another the members of all paramilitary groups to end all Omagh atrocity. If the members of these illegal activities, thus allowing their organisations organisations are serious about democratic to complete the transition to exclusively politics on the island of Ireland, there is no need democratic means. for this activity which should cease forthwith. The central point of the Sinn Fe´in amendment The Chief Constable of the PSNI, Hugh Orde, is that it seeks to have the House acknowledge has warned that the marching season is the progress made thus far in removing armed approaching and that we cannot allow a vacuum force from the political situation, in particular the to take hold. There has been no real political IRA cessation since 1994, and urges continuing progress in Northern Ireland since the November political progress in order that physical force elections, despite the dedicated efforts of the from any source can finally be removed from Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister. Moves politics. The central issue for the House, must now be made to combat paramilitarism if therefore, is whether we can unanimously call on the institutions are to be restored and the all members of paramilitary groups to Assembly allowed to carry out its work. unequivocally end all illegal activities. This debate offers Deputies on all sides an I recognise the point in the Sinn Fe´in opportunity to support the motion in order that amendment and acknowledge the progress made a strong message can be sent from this House on in removing armed force, in particular the IRA behalf of the people we serve that we want cessation in 1994. Sinn Fe´in has come a long way politics to work and the terror to end in order across the bridge. I invite it to come all the way that the people of Northern Ireland can look across to join the other parties in this House in a forward to a peaceful and fulfilling future for clear, unequivocal call to all paramilitary themselves and generations to come. organisations to end all illegal activities. I urge it It is no great pursuit of mine as to whether to respond positively to this invitation when its Gerry Adams was ever a member of the IRA, or members speak on the motion. If that happens, whether he is still a member of its army council. we will have a united voice in the House seeking Members of the Sinn Fe´in group in this House an end to all paramilitary activity on the island have admitted their membership of the IRA in of Ireland. the past. That is not my concern now as I cannot I endorse what the leader of Fine Gael said change the past but we can influence the future. when he stated how timely this motion was. It It is up to the members of all paramilitary is six years next Good Friday since the Belfast organisations — I have met some reformed Agreement was signed. In that agreement there members in Northern Ireland in the Shankill, was a reaffirmation of a commitment of all Taughmona and other places — to now see the participants to the total disarmament of all reality of the pursuit of democratic politics. paramilitary organisations. It is nothing new to This motion, tabled as we approach sixth seek an unequivocal commitment to the ending anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement and of all paramilitary activity. It is salutory to say the local and European elections in the Republic, the Good Friday Agreement sought to have the provides a real opportunity to state that the end decommissioning of all paramilitary arms within has come and the war is over, that people are two years, following endorsements in referenda, truly committed to democratic politics and that North and South. We had our referenda and got they will end paramilitary activities. I include our endorsements with very substantial paramilitary activities on all sides in this. If we majorities. Two years went by but we still do not are to build a country of which we can be truly have an end to paramilitary activity. We still have proud, which can in its own time decide or not had complete decommissioning. That is my otherwise the timing of a united Ireland, there is request to the House tonight. no place for paramilitary activity in any I have been through these discussions in the community. The Taoiseach supports and has past as I played a small role in the Anglo-Irish worked towards this. I long for the day when the Agreement as Minister of State in the people of Ireland can make this decision in their Department of Foreign Affairs. I have been own way, far removed from the influence of closely following developments over the years. paramilitary organisations and their dastardly While progress has been made, we need to deeds. The motion offers all Deputies on all sides complete the job. The total ending of the opportunity to send the clear signal that we paramilitary activity is an essential part of its are all committed to a future, of which we can all completion. be proud. When I was in Belfast yesterday chairing a committee of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The central issue in the Body, I had the opportunity to talk to the various motion before the House is the call on members political parties present. We also had discussions of all paramilitary groups to end all illegal with the Secretary of State and I was able to get activities and disperse, thus allowing their a fairly complete and up-to-date briefing on the organisations to become a thing of the past. If political mood in Northern Ireland. It is clear that 627 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 628

[Mr. J. O’Keeffe.] able to report a total end to all paramilitary if political progress is to be made in the coming activity. I issue this invitation to those who might 12 months or so, a total ending of paramilitary listen or carry the message beyond this House. activity must be achieved. Without this and a I am not unmindful of the fact that when we complete disbandment of paramilitary speak about terrorism and paramilitary activity, organisations I do not see much prospect for we do so in the context of international terrorism political progress in the new changed political — this is not just an island on its own in the scene in Northern Ireland. Atlantic Ocean. Unfortunately, the activities that While the number of awful atrocities has have occurred here may provide an example — a abated considerably, it is clear that there is damn bad one, if I may say so — to people in considerable paramilitary activity in Northern other countries. Correspondingly, an end to such Ireland. I accept that all of the information activities would provide a good example to those suggests the majority of the incidents are on the in other countries who might be tempted to loyalist side. The figures given to me suggest that engage in terrorist or paramilitary activity. Let the proportion is about two thirds to one third this be an additional benefit to be derived from a but this is not the point. The point is that there is complete ending of all paramilitary activities. We paramilitary activity on both sides and a demand are not unaffected by what happens abroad and must be made to end it and disband all those in other countries are not and will not be paramilitary organisations. unaffected by what happens here. While I am saying paramilitary activity should The main message we wish to have delivered is be brought to an end without qualification and that the democratic will of the people as equivocation, I am not unmindful of the need for expressed in the referendum should now, at long political progress at the same time. Therefore, last, be honoured. Let us develop the political while I do not anticipate that there will be a rush process and use the instruments, institutions and to make such progress, there are some promising structures in place. Progress has been made from signs coming from Northern Ireland. The DUP this point of view. I have no doubt that further document entitled, Devolution Now, is progress will be made. This progress can only be interesting. It is worth studying and makes a furthered by a complete and unqualified adoption contribution to political developments in of the motion before the House. Therefore, I Northern Ireland. I appreciate that it only deals plead with all parties to support it totally and with strand one and that there are further without qualification. That would be a very good documents promised on strands two and three. night’s work. However, I believe it represents a conscious effort on the part of the DUP to contribute Mr. Sargent: Gabhaim buı´ochas le Fine Gael constructively to political discussions in Northern as a chuid ama roinnt. Dar linn sa Chomhaontas Ireland. It has taken seriously its position as the Ghlas, the Green Party, nı´ mo´ r deireadh a chur leading Unionist party. I would not have thought le fore´igean le cu´ spo´ irı´ polaitiu´ la a bhaint amach. a number of years ago that I would have been the Sin cu´ is tacaı´ocht a thabhairt don ru´ n seo. The one to produce a DUP document in Da´il E´ ireann murky world of violence and the threat of but perhaps this is a political development also. I violence pervade many areas of the world, not do so merely to develop the point that there are least the northern part of this island. If I may some signs of political development and progress speak more globally, at the recent Green Party in Northern Ireland. There are possibilities. Ard-Fheis in Galway I met friends of Ingrid Although I call for total decommissioning and Betancourt, the Green presidential candidate in a total end to paramilitary activity, I realise this Colombia who was kidnapped two years ago by will not happen in the absence of political FARC guerrillas, as far as we understand. She is discussion. However, it is not appropriate that the still being held and we hope she is still alive. She ending of paramilitary activity should in any way has attended to the needs of the poor, particularly be made dependent on political progress. A poor children, and stood against corruption and commitment was made and an end to drug trafficking. I appeal for her release and paramilitary activity must be achieved information on her whereabouts. Her children, irrespective of the political outcome. Melanie, Lorenzo and Sebastien, and her There will be other developments in the short husband, close friends and family are beside term which will include the report of the themselves with anxiety and distress. On their independent monitoring commission. I do not behalf and on behalf of Greens worldwide, I am know what will be contained in the report but it seeking information and, I hope, her safe return. seems reasonable to assume that it will confirm a Violence thrives in a culture where it is level of paramilitary activity and an involvement tolerated. in the Bobby Tohill abduction. I understand a As tension grows, it spirals until it is out of further report will be published by the control. This is the situation in Colombia where commission in October. All I can do — I am not kidnapping and drug trafficking are the two main anticipating the report due next week — is invite income sources of the FARC guerrillas and those who are involved, interested and have others. Even though the Government of influence to make sure that by the time the Colombia has serious questions to answer, it does commission reports again in October it will be not give FARC or anybody else a licence to kill, 629 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 630 terrorise, kidnap or traffick drugs. Likewise, in been an incrementalism which allowed restrictive Ireland, this debate comes less than a week after leaderships to both push and pull their the Cory report which followed the report on the constituencies as the logic of the Agreement took Dublin and Monaghan bombings which, in turn, hold. This applied to republican and Unionist followed the report of the stakeknife affair. Such leaderships alike and a necessary prerequisite for reports make one wonder if it suits some successful completion has been a mutual securocrats to prolong the cycle of violence. Are acceptance and expectation that party leaderships some paramilitaries calling the shots or are would, and could, bring their constituencies so far pathetic puppets at times maintained by collusion given the time and opportunity. It is this dynamic and an excuse for heavy spending on state which has been undermined by indecision on the militarism? Whatever the case, the continued part of the Unionists and a lack of boldness by existence of armed groups operating outside the the republican leadership. law is poison to the development of a peaceful Of course, we demand an end to all democratic and sustainable society. paramilitary activity — it would be strange if we The Good Friday Agreement, which enjoyed did not — however, we must also be clear in our huge cross-party and wider popular support, set opposition to Unionist intransigence. Northern down a clear requirement for an end to Ireland remains caught in a classic post-colonial paramilitarism and a process of demilitarisation. bind. The Governments must make it clear to Regrettably, it has emerged that the wriggle room anti-Agreement unionism that it will not be for both sides has developed into stand-off rewarded for its obstructionist approach with positions, and the stalling of the de Chastelain indefinite direct rule. If the elected process and the collapse of institutions are representatives of the people of Northern Ireland examples of this. The threat of violence is still in refuse to deliver the Agreement for which the existence in spite of comments at a secret briefing people there and here voted, it is for the by a senior Sinn Fe´in member last week who, Governments to deliver its objective jointly and apparently, stated that there will be an end to the in partnership. This point reflects the private IRA when an irreversible political process of briefing by the Sinn Fe´in spokesperson change is working in the North. mentioned earlier. There is a strong case for The Good Friday Agreement, as far as this pushing both Governments to be bold in taking party is concerned, is that democratically up their ultimate responsibility for delivering the mandated irreversible political process. The will of the people who supported the Agreement. paramilitaries’ day is done. Sadly, the In a sense, we are returning to the logic of the manifestation of paramilitarism is now being seen Anglo-Irish Agreement mentioned by Deputy in racist as well as sectarian and vigilante attacks Jim O’Keeffe wherein the Governments used and criminality in general. This is community their democratic legitimacy to step out in front of relations week in the North. One of the strongest what unionism was prepared to deliver and thus current arguments against the paramilitarist force its hand in terms of entering the negotiation culture in the North is the racist turn. Loyalist of the Good Friday Agreement. If the Agreement paramilitarists, in particular, are transforming is to be implemented, all parties to it must fulfil their infrastructure of intimidation into all their commitments. This has implications for mechanisms for vigilantism. They attack and the British Government, particularly in regard to warn off foreign nationals moving into parts of the human rights provisions as well as for Belfast and other cities. Northern Ireland has unionism and nationalism. The time for recently been dubbed internationally as Europe’s sequencing and choreography has passed. We race hate capital. need to identify all the areas where The usefulness of this debate is also served by implementation has been delayed and deliver on reflecting on how other parties, apart from Sinn them immediately following the review. The Fe´in, must play a role in moving onwards the Agreement belongs to us all, North and South. process of full implementation of the Good The Opposition parties here need to be drawn Friday Agreement. It is unfortunate, to put it formally into the Agreement so that all the mildly, that no formal role has been granted to political capital available is put to good use, and the other opposition parties to input to the Good I include the Independent Deputies in that. Friday Agreement review. For it is in that review Increasingly calls are being made by the Green more than anywhere else that progress, if it is to Party — Comhaontas Glas — and others for be made, will be made. some truth and reconciliation commission to be The core weaknesses in the Agreement, in the established to get to the bottom of how and why process that led up to it and in the strategy of the atrocities were carried out on all sides. However, Governments in their attempts to implement it for many, such a commission will not be possible has been the failure to call a spade a spade. By or useful unless, and until, paramilitaries disband, fudging the definition of the problem and being and the Green Party looks forward to that day unclear about the chronology of the without further delays. implementation of the Agreement’s provisions, it Deputy Jim O’Keeffe mentioned the DUP and has come to mean different things to different how we might be looking at progress being made people. It is time for clearer language. One of the even though it is not enough progress. I thought unstated dynamics of the Agreement process has it symbolic and interesting to hear that this 631 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 632

[Mr. Sargent.] agenda of paramilitarism and weekend in the Europa Hotel in Belfast all the sectarianism; participants in the world Irish dancing — calls on the members of all paramilitary championships were welcomed by the DUP’s groups to end all illegal activities, thus Ruth Patterson. In opening the championships, allowing their organisations to complete she stated “Fa´ilte go dtı´ Oireachtas Rinnce na the transition to exclusively democratic Cruinne 2004”. That indicates some hope of means and become a thing of the past; which, I hope, everybody involved in the process will take note. That welcome was also echoed by — urges Sinn Fe´in to use its influence within Sammy Wilson, the former DUP Lord Mayor of the republican movement to ensure that Belfast. I think we are looking at changing the paramilitary threat from the IRA is mindsets and situations in the North. I hope those effectively ended and calls on the involved in paramilitarism can respect and Unionist parties to meet their embrace that and end their activities once and responsibilities in transforming loyalist for all. communities so that the threat from these quarters is similarly removed; The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 1: — urges unionism to sign up to the To delete all words after “Da´il E´ ireann” and imperative of a total partnership, based substitute the following: on the inclusion of all parties, whose electoral mandate gives them a right of “— reaffirms its support for the full participation; implementation of the Good Friday Agreement in all its aspects and for the — recognises that a definitive closure to full operation of its interlocking political paramilitary activity can best be achieved institutions across the three strands; in the context of the full and inclusive operation of all the institutions of the — recalls that the Agreement, Good Friday Agreement; overwhelmingly endorsed by the people of this island speaking freely and — urges all the political parties in Northern collectively in referenda held on 22 May Ireland to commit themselves to this 1998 reaffirmed ’a total and absolute objective and, accordingly, to engage commitment to exclusively democratic constructively and proactively in the and peaceful means of resolving current review of the operation of the difference on political issues’; Good Friday Agreement; — expresses disappointment at the lack of — welcomes the recent meeting at any significant progress, since the Hillsborough, convened by the Taoiseach November elections, towards the re- and the British Prime Minister, aimed at establishment of an Executive and exploring with the political parties the Assembly in Northern Ireland and prospects for political progress; believes that the continued operation of — calls on all concerned to support and co- illegal paramilitary organisations, North operate with the Independent Monitoring and South, and their ongoing involvement Commission and the Independent in paramilitary, criminal and sectarian International Commission on activities represents a major obstacle to Decommissioning to assist them in political progress; carrying our their work which is central — deplores the recent terrorist atrocity in to the implementation of core aspects of Madrid which reminds us of the horrific the Agreement; consequences of terrorist activities; — welcomes the publication of the reports — notes the comments of the Taoiseach and by Judge Peter Cory and underlines the the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law importance of undertaking public Reform about the continued involvement inquiries as soon as possible in each of of paramilitary organisations in criminal those cases where the judge so acts on both sides of the Border; recommends; — believes that the continued existence and — acknowledges the substantial progress operation of paramilitary organisations is that has been made in advancing the contrary to the democratic will of the Patten agenda on policing, commends people and erodes the primacy of politics those parties who have led that process of change and urges all concerned to reflected in the Agreement; constructively play their part in fully — urges the authorities on both sides of the realising the vision of a new beginning Border to continue to ensure that the full envisaged by the Agreement, particularly rigours of the law are used to counter by supporting and joining the new those who engage in the destructive policing structures; and 633 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 634

— rededicates itself to the Good Friday On recent visits to Northern Ireland, I said Agreement as the template for a fair and there can be no half-way house between violence honourable accommodation between and democracy. I also said there can be no both traditions whose principles of comfortable resting place between exclusion and democracy, consent, inclusion, partnership. It is time for all doubts and partnership, equality and mutual respect unresolved issues to be addressed. We have tried are not open to compromise.” on several occasions since the Agreement was signed to do so. Last year we invested an I wish to share my time with the Minister for enormous amount of time and effort in this task, Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O’Donoghue, and it was a frustrating experience. I spoke to my and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Mary Coughlan. Law Reform and we recalled our Easter break I am mindful of the central elements of the last year, on the fifth anniversary of the Good Opposition motion. It is important these issues Friday Agreement. We spent almost the entire are discussed and I am grateful for the week-end dealing with the peace process. I recall opportunity to do so. The Government believes the last meeting which began at 9 o’clock on that its amendment is necessary to take account Easter Monday. In the end, we got fed up and of the broader dimensions of Government policy went off to Fairyhouse having spent the entire in regard to the peace process and to reflect week-end on the problem. Not only I, but a recent significant developments, including the number of my colleagues who had intended going Cory reports and the work being undertaken by away for the week-end had been involved in the the international monitoring commission. The talks. That is just one example of what went on. Government’s goals, as reflected in its Many others spent the entire week-end working amendment, are open and transparent and, as also. Deputy Jim O’Keeffe pointed out, it covers all However frustrating last year’s experience was, the aspects in the motion. there is no escaping the issues. Once and for all, We are committed to working for progress in we must solve the problems that have been Northern Ireland. We want to fully implement undermining the peace process. Both the Agreement and a definitive end to all Governments are fully committed to making paramilitarism. We want to see the return of the progress as quickly as possible and we ask all the Assembly and devolved government. We also parties to commit themselves to the challenge. It want comprehensive and open dialogue with all is very clear what is needed. The commitment to strands of unionism as well as nationalism. If exclusively peaceful and democratic means in the everyone is willing to step up to their Agreement must become a reality in Northern responsibilities and seize the opportunity, Ireland. Partnership can only work and achieve arrangements under the Agreement can be put its reconciling potential when the use or threat of back in place which will be stable and lasting. force has been finally removed from the equation. This is what my colleagues and I continue to Ongoing paramilitary activity and sectarian strive for and work towards. attacks erode the trust and confidence necessary On 10 April 1998, almost six years ago to the to sustain the process. They obstruct efforts to day, when the Good Friday Agreement was achieve political progress. These activities, in all signed, those of us who were there recognised it their various guises, must now be brought to a had the potential to transform relationships on definitive end. This is a requirement for all this island. I believed that then and I believe it paramilitary organisations, loyalist and now. This is why I will continue to devote my republican. The republican movement has a energies and time to this indispensable process, special responsibility, given Sinn Fe´in’s position and my colleagues do likewise. of political leadership within the nationalist The Agreement offered the opportunity of community. The scope of activities that must end escape from the fruitless and unproductive were outlined in paragraph 13 of the joint disagreements of the past. It pointed towards a declaration published in May 2003. They have not new partnership model that did not threaten the changed. They include military attacks, training, interests of any community, but empowered and targeting, intelligence gathering, acquisition or enriched us all. I am entirely satisfied the development of arms or weapons, other Agreement that emerged after such protracted preparation for terrorist campaigns, punishment negotiations includes the elements essential to beatings and attacks and involvement in riots. healing a divided society and building There is a need for the issue of relationships on and between these islands. The decommissioning of paramilitary weapons to be two Governments are, therefore, determined to addressed in a way that will maximise public protect and promote the Agreement in every way confidence. We also want to see an end to all possible. I have made the point on a number of forms of IRA-directed criminality that have been occasions in recent months that the core of the the focus of so much attention in this jurisdiction Agreement is partnership and that a viable in recent weeks. A commitment to policing is partnership in Northern Ireland can only be central to a Northern Ireland free of constructed on the basis of total equality between paramilitarism and criminality. Such a the prospective partners. commitment would be the clearest sign that the 635 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 636

[The Taoiseach.] empowered to consider claims that any party communities in Northern Ireland are moving within the Assembly was in breach of its forward together. The unionist parties have clear commitments under the Agreement. In response responsibilities. The DUP and UUP must commit to a number of factors, including the incident in themselves to the full and continuous operation Kelly’s Cellar Bar in Belfast on 20 February, the of all the political institutions of the Good Friday IMC agreed to bring forward its first report on Agreement. This includes power-sharing in a ongoing paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive with Both Governments expect to receive this over the all political parties whose mandate gives them a coming week or so. right of participation, and full support for, and The IMC can act as a confidence-building participation in, the all-island institutions of the mechanism on a wide range of issues, particularly Agreement. Given their responsibilities, the DUP by offering reassurance that the activities which and UUP must accept that this means doing destabilised the institutions in the past will not business with Sinn Fe´in in dealing with the issues escape accountability. I do not know what the I have mentioned. impact of the IMC report will be when published. I welcome the opening of our dialogue with the I know, however, that we can no longer avoid DUP. The path to this point of engagement has addressing the issues central to the Commission’s not been speedily travelled. However, open and mandate. In the interests of confidence-building, honest engagement will broaden and deepen the it is vital that commitments entered into by the process of dialogue and reconciliation on this Governments are fulfilled. In this regard, I island. I said in January or early February, when welcome the publication last week of the four the Government formally met the DUP for the reports by Judge Peter Cory on cases of concern first time, it was the first time during my 27 years in Northern Ireland. I also welcome the in politics that I actually saw Mr. Robinson in establishment of inquiries, as recommended by person, even though he and I have been in Judge Cory, into the cases of Robert Hamill, politics for a long time. As Deputy O’Keeffe said, Rosemary Nelson and Billy Wright. things move on. We must take up the pace very The decision not to proceed at this time with quickly, however, I welcome the dialogue. the necessary public inquiry into the murder of I welcome the publication of proposals on the Pat Finucane is disappointing. I agree with Judge review of the Agreement by a number of parties, Cory that such an inquiry should take place in including the DUP. I hope the DUP’s initial parallel with the pending prosecution. We will proposals covering Strand One of the Agreement continue to press our view on the British will soon be followed by their proposals on the Government that the Weston Park commitments North-South and East-West dimensions of the must be honoured in all cases. This means that a Agreement. The challenge for the review is to public inquiry in the case of Pat Finucane must collectively consider and discuss whether change be held as soon as possible. can be accommodated, mindful that there is no There is a legitimate question, particularly question of degrading the fundamental values, following implementation of Judge Cory’s principles or protections of the Agreement, recommendations, of how best we should now because we cannot and will not change the handle the legacy of the Troubles. I read Deputy fundamentals of the Agreement. Bruton’s thoughtful contribution on this issue at The restoration of devolved government on an the weekend. Secretary of State Paul Murphy has inclusive basis is a key priority for both been asked to consult the parties on how this Governments, but the Agreement is wider than highly sensitive matter should be handled. There devolution. Both Governments have a are many who feel that we should have embarked responsibility to ensure that the non-devolved on such a truth and reconciliation process before aspects of the Agreement continue to be now. Deputy Sargent and I have been discussing implemented. The ongoing work within the this in the House for some years. I do not know framework of the British-Irish Intergovernmental where these latest discussions will lead but I Conference is, therefore, important. It includes support them and I believe they are timely. I the implementation of commitments made in the hope that a consensus emerges that will be joint declaration in the areas of criminal justice, centred on the victims and will allow this most human rights, equality and community issues. difficult issue to be addressed in an appropriate The Minister for Foreign Affairs and the way that will also ensure a necessary and real Northern Ireland Secretary of State will co-chair focus on the present and on the future. the next meeting of the intergovernmental On the sixth anniversary of the Agreement I conference later this month at which they will am fully aware of the need to maintain advance progress on these important issues. At confidence in the process. When I recently met the same time, the Independent Monitoring Prime Minister Blair at Hillsborough, we clearly Commission, which was tasked in the joint stated our preference to see early progress on the declaration with monitoring and reporting on the key issues, preferably before the local and fulfilment of commitments in regard to the European elections in June. I assure the House ending of paramilitary activity and the that both Governments will remain in close programme of security normalisation in Northern contact with all the parties over the coming weeks Ireland, will shortly issue its first report. It is also to advance all opportunities for progress. I would 637 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 638 also like to take this opportunity to thank the peaceful means. I commend the work of the Opposition parties for their ongoing support and police on both sides of the Border in combating constructive engagement as we strive to paramilitary activity and I urge everyone to give implement the Agreement fully and to achieve a their full support to them. lasting political settlement on this island. I assure The House recognises the tremendous progress the House that the Government and I will leave which has been made in bringing about the new no stone unturned in our efforts to implement the beginning to policing in Northern Ireland as Good Friday Agreement and will take account of promised in the Good Friday Agreement. The everyone’s concerns on this matter. benchmarks for the new policing arrangements were clearly set out in the Agreement, namely, Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. a professional and effective police service which O’Donoghue): We are all disappointed by the carries out its duties fairly and impartially, is free lack of progress towards the restoration of the from partisan political control, is accountable Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive. both under the law and to the communities it Significant issues remain to be resolved and all serves, is representative of those same parties have a role to play in addressing them. communities, and acts in accordance with the I commend the Taoiseach and the Minister for highest human rights standards. Foreign Affairs on their continuing efforts in co- This House is well aware of the extraordinary operation with the British Government and the breadth and depth of change that has taken place Northern Ireland political parties to move in policing in Northern Ireland in such a relatively matters forward. The experience of the past 18 short period. Northern Ireland now has a new months has shown that this is not an easy task, agreed symbol and emblem representing the new but we would be wrong to lose hope. The beginning to policing based on partnership resolution that is profoundly desired and eagerly between the two communities; a commitment to awaited by the people of Northern Ireland can achieving a community-centred police service as and will be found. its key defining objective; a police service The scourge of paramilitarism — loyalist and governed by a code of ethics in line with the republican — represents without doubt a major highest standards of human rights; obstacle to political progress. Criminal and comprehensive accountability structures, sectarian acts of violence are a clear challenge to including the Policing Board and the district all of us who believe in democracy and the rule policing partnerships, which make the police of law. Northern Ireland has just experienced increasingly accountable to local communities; a perhaps its quietest 18 months in memory. Much 50:50 recruitment policy which is making the work has gone into ensuring that parades pass off police more representative of the community it peacefully and that the interfaces are quiet. The serves; the re-casting of the special branch as an number of deaths related to the security situation essential tool for crime branch, with a new has fallen dramatically. Nevertheless, it is evident leadership and new procedures that are becoming that the blight of paramilitarism continues to increasingly in line with the highest international affect many communities in Northern Ireland in standards; and considerably enhanced co- the form of punishment attacks, sectarian operation between the PSNI and the Garda assaults, intimidation, threats, harassment, Sı´ocha´na, including the provision to allow officers extortion and other criminal activity. from each force to serve in the other. The Police Service of Northern Ireland has The success of this project to date is a tribute stated that approximately two-thirds of to the people involved at all levels, and none punishment attacks and shootings since 2001 are more so than the Policing Board. The board’s the responsibility of loyalist groups. Dissident members, individually and collectively, have republicans continue to be engaged in the provided the catalyst for change by driving harassment and intimidation of Catholic and forward the implementation of the Patten Nationalist members of district policing recommendations. The board deserves great partnerships as well as in attacking police stations credit for its efforts. in Northern Ireland. Recent months have also In this connection, I regret that the new seen a rise in violent racist attacks on members policing dispensation in Northern Ireland does of ethnic communities, especially in Belfast. not, as yet, enjoy the support of all political Again, it appears that there is loyalist parties. The Government and Members of the paramilitary involvement in such attacks. House have on many occasions commended the The Garda, PSNI, Criminal Assets Bureau and SDLP on taking on the task of leading the Assets Recovery Agency continue to work process of change from within the new policing closely to combat the illegal activities of these structures. It has not been an easy task and has paramilitary groupings, and Deputies will be involved, on occasion, physical intimidation of aware that they have had many notable successes. members of the party. However, as so often in Continuing paramilitary activity runs counter to the past, the SDLP has risen to the challenge and the wishes of the majority of the people on this demonstrated real courage and leadership on island. In 1998 the people voted overwhelmingly behalf of the whole community. for a future free from violence and for the In the past six months, perhaps the greatest resolution of political differences by exclusively burden has been borne by Nationalist members 639 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 640

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] arena of North-South co-operation to the benefit of the district policing partnerships, who have of all. came under a violent and sustained assault on In my Department, I have seen at first hand their democratic right to represent their the tremendous advantage of approaching communities. This is unacceptable and I am sure overseas marketing from an all-island all Members of the House would join me in perspective, through the condemning all such acts of intimidation. 8 o’clock establishment of Tourism Ireland. The Taoiseach has stated that paramilitarism is Tourism is one of the world’s most a cul-de-sac for communities. This House will join dynamic and important economic sectors. The me in urging all those with influence to recognise fact that the Government has placed this key the damage that paramilitarism, whatever the economic sector in the hands of a North-South origin, causes to communities and to bring an end body is an indication of our commitment to and to all illegal activities. belief in the potential of such co-operative effort. As the House will be aware, following the Tourism is an ideal candidate for the all-island alleged abduction of a man in Belfast on 20 approach and Tourism Ireland has been an February, meetings on the review of the Good outstanding success since its establishment in Friday Agreement have focused primarily on December 2000. The body took over all-island paramilitary activity, including the meeting on 23 tourism marketing at a difficult and challenging February when I represented the Government. time for the industry worldwide and is delivering However, the two Governments are determined to see continued momentum in the review excellent results for the island as a whole. It has process, which we believe provides an important a particular remit to help Northern Ireland’s opportunity for sensible course correction, to put tourism industry to reach its full potential and I right any deficits of implementation and to renew am pleased to say that last year was a bumper the fresh start the Agreement envisaged. year for Northern Ireland tourism, with a 15% To this end, last week both Governments wrote increase in holiday visitors. to the parties, requesting them to submit by 8 Tourism Ireland is fully embedded in the April further proposals about the operation of strategic approach of my Department’s tourism the Agreement which they would like to discuss planning. Just yesterday, I addressed a major as part of the review process. In particular, we European tourism conference in Dublin Castle, would welcome proposals from the DUP on organised as part of our EU Presidency strands two and three. The two Governments and programme. This international event also served the other parties will need to consider the totality to raise the profile of our North-South co- of the DUP proposals before forming a operation in the tourism sector and has been judgement as to whether they are likely to mirrored by a similar event hosted in Belfast by provide a basis for consensus support. Both the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and Tourism Governments will, in the light of these Ireland, at which its chief executive briefed submissions, make proposals for the timetabling delegates on all-island tourism co-operation. of further review discussions. The overwhelmingly positive experience of In tandem with the review process, the two Tourism Ireland’s success is both a confirmation Governments are involved in a round of of the strong economic and commercial case for negotiations with the parties in an effort to North-South co-operation and an incentive to resolve the current impasse. As has been stated seek out and develop further opportunities. Such on a number of occasions in recent months, the consideration is of course being taken forward at outstanding core issues are the achievement of official level all the time, but I look forward to final closure in relation to all forms of the opportunity for Ministers from North and paramilitarism from all quarters and a South to re-engage in the North-South commitment from all the parties to the full Ministerial Council to bring renewed impetus to operation of stable and inclusive political the development of the North-South agenda, institutions. both in my Department, where there are These institutions of the Agreement include possibilities in the sport area and in exploring the North-South Ministerial Council, which potential elsewhere such as infrastructure, energy regrettably has been unable to meet since the suspension of the Assembly in October 2002. This and higher education. does not mean that North-South co-operation has To fully realise the potential that exists we stalled. On the contrary, good progress continues need to get ministerial colleagues from North and to be made on the extensive work programme South back around the council table and that already mandated by the NSMC, and the work of requires the restoration of the institutions and the the North-South bodies continues under interim full and inclusive implementation of the Good arrangements put in place by the two Friday Agreement. The House can rest assured Governments to ensure that these bodies can that both Governments are continuing their continue to discharge their important public efforts with the parties to advance all functions. I look forward, however, to the time opportunities for progress. I commend the when the NSMC can meet again to re-energise motion, as amended by the Government, to the and give new direction to this critically important House. 641 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 642

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary The work programme of the council, which is Coughlan): Following on from all that has already being taken forward by the two Governments been said this evening, I re-emphasise the need during suspension, continues to be serviced by an for the full implementation of the Good Friday innovative joint secretariat of civil servants from Agreement in all its aspects. The very real social North and South, based in Armagh. Their work and economic benefits which have been delivered should facilitate an easy return to normal council through the Agreement, even despite the current activities once the Assembly is restored and the unfortunate period of suspension, highlight the NSMC can meet again. In addition to the council, enormous potential for the entire island. the six North-South implementation bodies have The Government attaches great priority to the been up and running for over four years and work ongoing within the six sectors for North- continue to press on with their important remits, South co-operation and within the six with major programmes of work in place in a implementation bodies set up under the range of areas. On the basis of the work and the Agreement. This has been reinforced again and achievements to date, we can rightly have high again for the simple reason that it makes practical hopes about the potential which these relatively and economic sense to ensure that the North- young institutions have in terms of tangible, South Ministerial Council operates to its full mutual benefits for all the people of this island. potential. In 2002, legislation was passed by this Enhancing North-South trade and developing House to ensure that the important functions of all-island business linkages and managing our the North-South bodies would be preserved shared resources are key remits of North-South during the period of suspension. This legislation co-operation. These fit sensibly into the new and its protection of the work of the bodies have North-South architecture of the Agreement and proved invaluable for the people of the whole are producing significant benefits for the Island as island. a whole. Although the bodies have their origins in In terms of enhancing our economic potential, a political settlement, they play a vital function in the work of the NSMC and the new bodies has the practical working life of the people of our been of particular significance. These focus, for island. Alongside the work being carried out by the first time, on an all-island basis, on key areas the North-South implementation bodies and for co-operation such as tourism promotion, Tourism Ireland, the NSMC has also been transport and agriculture, with dedicated bodies concerned with seeking to facilitate mobility established with specific responsibilities for issues between the two jurisdictions. In February 2002, such as food safety promotion, marine tourism the NSMC published a study on obstacles to and aquaculture, the development of the island’s mobility between Northern Ireland and the inland waterways and trade and business Republic of Ireland. This study focused on the development. very practical issues which have made it difficult, The bodies draw their board members from all for people to move across the Border or indeed areas of expertise throughout this island. live in one jurisdiction and work or study in the Encouragingly, business leaders in both parts of other. These issues, such as taxation differences, Ireland were among the first to welcome the pension rights, social security benefits, housing establishment of the new trade body and health care can create great impediments and lnterTradelreland and all the North-South prevent the movement of people. This report put institutions of the Agreement. They share the forward more than 50 recommendations that seek view that for far too long conflict and division to remove such impediments. have prevented us from realising the full potential Since publication of the report, work has been of our island economy. There has been a undertaken to attempt to remove these obstacles tendency to work back to back, whereas now it is where possible, and when not possible, to provide time to work face to face. Our infrastructure has accurate and effective information to those been cut in half. As a Border Deputy, I recognise seeking to move. A public consultation exercise in every aspect of our economic development was carried out to allow organisations and people North-South co-operation creates potential for working and living in the Border regions to important synergies, pooling of resources and comment on the report and its recommendations. sharing of expertise. From this it transpired that the greatest In what has been a relatively brief space of impediment to movement is a lack of time, tremendous strides have been made on all information. Work is currently ongoing between the new North-South institutions. Prior to the the Administrations North and South to establish suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly in a website that will fill the current information October 2002, the North-South Ministerial deficit and provide people with the information Council had met 65 times, beginning with the necessary on issues such as banking and health historic inaugural plenary on 13 December 1999 care prior to undertaking a move across the in Armagh. The council has held regular Border. ministerial meetings in a range of sectors In addition to this website, departmental including trade, tourism, transport, environment, working groups have been established to tackle education, language, loughs, waterways, special specific policy issues. These groups are currently EU programmes, agriculture and health and looking at issues such as the mutual recognition food safety. of qualifications and access to health care. 643 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 644

[Mary Coughlan.] strengthening mutual understanding and helping Practical work such as this will facilitate the us to defuse the tensions between both traditions further movement of people on the island of on this island. Ireland and will in turn facilitate the work that We do not underestimate the challenges ahead has been begun by organisations such as but it is the business of Government to address InterTradelreland. Such movement should also problems and find solutions. Given the bring with it increasing economic and social foundations on which we are now building and activity between the two parts of the island. the commitment and determination of the This will also assist in overcoming the division democratically elected parties and the two which still exists on this island today. Division, Governments, we will, together, find a way like a weed, infiltrates every aspect of society and through our current difficulties. is self-reinforcing. It cannot be tackled purely through politics, through agreements of words. Mr. Rabbitte: I wish to share my time with The only way to eradicate it completely is Deputy Crawford. through actions, actions which repeated so often become commonplace, part of the everyday An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is that agreed? reality of our lives. Much of our business on this Agreed. island is now being taken forward by North-South bodies. From the point of view of this jurisdiction, Mr. Rabbitte: I speak in support of the motion. no new policy is embarked on without It would be my wish and view that it should not consideration of the all-island dimension. This is be contentious. It was drafted by us not to score what partnership is all about — working together points, but to send a message. It is our hope that for common good. We will protect these gains the message sent by this House would be united, and press on this important agenda, continuing direct and simple. We represent those who live in to reap the benefits, both economic and social. this part of the island. They want peace, progress However, we would have been foolish to witness and stability in Northern Ireland. They believe all this tremendous progress with complacency or that the people of Northern Ireland are entitled to expect that there would be no further to democratic institutions of government. They challenges ahead. We were conscious from the look forward to the day when an elected outset that this was always going to be a long- government in Northern Ireland will feel free to haul process and we would have to be prepared engage at every level with the people on the rest for, and not discouraged by, setbacks along the of this island. way. The people on both parts of this island voted As we all know, when times are tough, in for all that, overwhelmingly, when they voted for politics or in business, the only way forward is to the Good Friday Agreement. As their keep working and to meet those challenges head representatives, it is up to us to keep reminding on. We must not underestimate the importance the participants in that process that the Good of the new institutions at this time. The current Friday Agreement has yet to be delivered. It is period of suspension should not cloud the fact entirely appropriate that this week, as we that their record in the period since December approach the sixth anniversary of that 1999 can be a very real encouragement to us as Agreement, we should once again return to its we address our current difficulties. The process terms. The message in this motion, addressed as worked extremely well and the people of it is to members of paramilitary organisations and Northern Ireland supported it. They liked that their political representatives, and especially the local politicians, accountable to them, were IRA—— taking decisions on matters of critical importance to their daily lives. Many important decisions Mr. Morgan: The Official or the Provisional were made by the Executive and the Assembly IRA? about hospitals, schools and roads. Even if there were disagreements with some of those decisions, Mr. Rabbitte: ——is that it is make your mind the people liked the new dispensation and the up time. potential that it held. It is one thing all the parties I will return to this theme shortly. First, I agree on, they all want to see it restored. remind the House that we will shortly come to The new North-South structures have also another anniversary. Soon we will remember the been building and strengthening mutual Easter Rising of 1916, a rising underpinned by a understanding and helping to defuse the tensions proclamation that has gone into the folk memory and suspicions between the two traditions on the of our people. Apart from the phrases we island. Many important decisions were made by remember best, for example, the injunction to the Executive and the Assembly about hospitals, cherish all the children of the nation equally, that schools and roads. Even if there were proclamation was noteworthy for some of its disagreements on some of these, the people liked other instructions: the guarantee of religious and the new dispensation and the potential it held. civil liberty; the promise of equal rights and equal There is one point on which all parties are agreed: opportunities to all citizens; the resolve to pursue all want to see it restored. The new North-South the happiness and prosperity of the nation and all structures have also been building and its parts; and the solemn prayer set out at the end 645 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 646 of that proclamation that no one who serves the Fe´in members have worked hard and often cause of the republic will dishonour it by courageously to become part of the solution. cowardice or inhumanity. Some day, perhaps, it will be possible for Sinn Almost 90 years on, we have occasion Fein to accept that it was also intrinsically a major frequently to reflect here and elsewhere about part of the problem. the extent to which these promises and entreaties As well as dealing truthfully with the past, we have been honoured. We know that we have not need to deal truthfully with the present. I was yet succeeded in this part of the island of Ireland shocked within the last week or so to read a in creating a republic that is genuinely informed newspaper story reporting that a close associate by the principles of equality, freedom and of and senior activist in the constituency of a solidarity at all times. We know that, in Northern Member of this House had been knee-capped and Ireland, the cause of the republic has been left along the Border. That story, to my dishonoured all too often by inhumanity. The knowledge, only appeared in one newspaper, but thousands left dead, the families left grieving and I find it astonishing that there has been a bereaved and the injured and maimed of a 30 complete silence on the subject from the party of year conflict will always wonder what it was for. which the person concerned was an active At some point, those responsible will have to member. One can only wonder at what internal reflect too. They will have to come to terms with tension caused this atrocity and why there a past that, whatever point of idealism or sense appears to be so much anxiety to cover it up. The of injustice may have inspired it, descended far story may be inaccurate or misinformed, but that too often into sectarian carnage and featured far too should have brought a correction. too often acts of inhuman barbarity. Those who We have arrived now at the point where it is, started off prepared to die for the republic all too for the republican movement especially, make often tortured and maimed for it. The republic your mind up time. The prospect of progress in was dishonoured, and that must be faced up to by Northern Ireland is stalled for one reason only. those involved. An army which sees itself as undefeated but There is talk now of a reconciliation which declares itself to be no threat to peace is commission. No one should dismiss that idea unable to dispense with its weapons. Until it can lightly. Some have approached it from a deep overcome that impasse, the long spell of sense of victimhood, and I fully understand that. uninterrupted political stability where democratic Others have reacted to the idea as if to co- government based on the consent of the governed operate in any way with the notion of and is the central and only feature of all political reconciliation would be to deny the values for activity will continue to be denied to the people which they stood in the past. of Northern Ireland. The British Prime Minister has spoken of the I do not say that in any spirit of recrimination. need to move beyond the past and, while I I am not here to score political points. We have sympathise with that aim, I fear it may never be all read and heard the attacks on the republican possible until we have all come to terms with the movement by a variety of Ministers. I have not past — the victim and the perpetrator, the joined in those because I do not have the gunman and the peacemaker alike. For all the evidence to which Ministers claim they are privy. people involved, truth is a necessary ingredient I do not intend to be drawn into the debate of progress. concerning whether Mr. Adams was or remains a Issues such as what happened to people who member of the IRA because, in a debate such as disappeared without trace, whether there was this, we should try to take a longer view. I want collusion in the murder of loved ones and how do to see a post-IRA Ireland. Many members of the we finally get to the bottom of mysteries that republican movement have said they want that have bedevilled the lives of those who suffered too. The key to a post-IRA Ireland is in the hands from them must be addressed as part of any of P. O’Neill the mythical signatory of statements process of reconciliation. It is not possible to from the Provisional IRA. The undefeated army effect a truce with the past while ignoring all its must come to the conclusion that it is in its gift dark secrets. No one holds more secrets than the to ensure once and for all that democratic paramilitaries who claimed their mandate from politicians are free to go about their business, in our history and see themselves as following in the this case the business of building a dynamic footsteps of those who signed the Proclamation economy and a fair and just society in Northern of 1916. No one needs to confront the darkness Ireland, without ever having to worry again about of those secrets more than the same the threat of violence from a paramilitary source. paramilitaries. It must, at some point, become clear to everyone involved that there must be a Mr. Morgan: Which army? reckoning with the past. It is clear from reading the amendment tabled Mr. Rabbitte: There must no longer be any by Sinn Fe´in Members to the motion before us room for doubt. If politics is the future, armed that we are not at that point yet. That amendment struggle is the past. seeks to make it clear that all the difficulties in I have before now praised the leadership of the way of progress now are the exclusive fault of Provisional Sinn Fe´in for leading the members of other people. I have always accepted that Sinn that party on a long and arduous struggle down 647 Paramilitary Organisations: 6 April 2004. Motion 648

[Mr. Rabbitte.] involvement. The old ways, just like the old days, the road of peace. All of us in this House have are gone. The only way forward now is through recognised how difficult a job it has been at times. politics. Making politics work requires drudgery. Following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, there was Who among us does not know that? However, it general acceptance that the republican movement does not require terror or violence. would need time and space to make the transition We must not lose sight of the primary from violence to democracy. There was an achievement of the Good Friday Agreement, understanding that the leadership was committed namely, that it has brought a degree of peace, to moving towards full participation in our albeit flawed and imperfect, not experienced in democratic system but that they would require Northern Ireland over the previous 30 years. time to convince the slower learners among the There is still violence in Northern Ireland, much republican movement. Anyone who understands of which is perpetrated by the Provisional IRA. anything about our political history knew that it One death from politically motivated violence is would take time and that there would be slippage a death too many. However, were it not for the and problems. However, all of us have from time Good Friday Agreement, many more people to time bitten our lips. We have refrained from would have died. There is no viable alternative to expressing the frustration we have felt at the the Good Friday Agreement and its commitment slowness of the process. Too often it seemed to to equality and mutual respect as the basis of have been a case of two steps forward and one relationships within Northern Ireland, between step back or, on some occasions, one step forward North and South and between these islands. The and two steps back. Too often it seemed as if the key now and the breakthrough we need to see is leadership of the republican movement was the recognition that the Agreement and its prepared to move only at the pace of its most democratic framework is the only way forward. recalcitrant member and too often it seemed that We must end the stop-start approach. We must that slow pace was putting the process itself at remove the instability and uncertainty and, most risk. Let the republican movement now take the of all, we must end the series of crises that have final risk. bedevilled the process from almost the beginning We will applaud the day that the entire and replace it with stability and certainty. We republican movement has the vision and foresight have all said before in such debates that nobody to say that democracy is the only way forward. can be allowed to take an each-way bet on The republican movement ended 30 years of democracy. One cannot choose to be a democrat conflict with its military wing, the IRA, on one day and then revert to terrorism on undefeated. That was its claim. Let that another. Stable Government in Northern Ireland undefeated IRA now tell us, as clearly as it can, and the full operation of all the institutions that the war is over. No one in this House or established under the Good Friday Agreement elsewhere will interpret such a statement as an demand that minimum degree of certainty. admission of defeat. The republican movement In the time since the Good Friday Agreement has said again and again—Iamprepared to take the world outside this island has changed beyond what its says at face value — that it does not recognition. The motion before the House, for represent a threat to the peace process. It has it example, refers to the horrible atrocity in Madrid, in its hands now to provide a positive benefit to an indication and a reminder, if we needed it, of the peace process. the dreadful consequences of terrorism. It has been said before, but it bears repeating Terrorism thrives, as we know, in polarised here, that a movement which describes itself as societies and in societies that have been denied political, that has made significant political gains justice and where there is no room for on both parts of this island and that is reconciliation. It remains the case that as we significantly represented in this House, in the approach the sixth anniversary of the Good Northern Ireland Assembly and in the Friday Agreement the central task of Westminster Parliament, as well as a large reconciliation in a divided community has still number of local authorities throughout this island barely begun. I hope the last obstacle will be does not need semtex explosives. A movement removed when the IRA finally declares that the which sees itself as pursuing democratic goals only future is a political future and when the through democratic means does not need guns. A principle of consent is thus accepted across the movement which sees itself as representing entire community. That is the message from this people, especially people who suffer through rarely united House. Let us hope the republican disadvantage, should surely have no truck with movement is prepared to listen. beating, maiming and terrorising people. A movement which is committed to the dynamics of Mr. Crawford: I welcome the opportunity to political contest and which is seeking to build a support the motion. As someone who lives within strong political base in every democratic forum a few miles of the Border, I understand more must not shy away from declaring that it is no than most the dramatic change which has taken longer at war. place over the past ten years. I clearly remember It is surely time for a new analysis which states the blown up and spiked roads and all the that republicans and Nationalists derive strength economic problems that created. I also remember and confidence from peace and democratic that more than 3,000 people died as a result of 649 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 650 the Troubles. One cannot help but remember many other people who suffered, directly and Enniskillen. The former Senator Gordon Wilson indirectly, as a result of those deaths. tried his best during his short time in the Seanad to encourage peace and forgiveness. One must Debate adjourned. also remember the terrible atrocity at Omagh when 29 people and two unborn infants died. Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: Second Stage Many people died in the Dublin and Monaghan (Resumed). bombings which happened almost 30 years ago — many questions remain unanswered about that Question again proposed: “That the Bill be incident. Only last Sunday my party recognised now read a Second Time.” the life and worth of Billy Fox who served in this Ms Enright: We were discussing the simplicity, House and in the Seanad. He was the only or not, of the electronic voting system. I have Member of the Houses of the Oireachtas to die seen the advertisements on television and tragically during the Troubles. consider them a little disingenuous. I used the The Good Friday Agreement is the only way machine in Offaly County Council about two forward. It contained many aspects which some weeks ago and I had no difficulty with it, but it is of us found difficult to accept, but it was a not as simple as switching a light switch on or off compromise. It allowed all prisoners to be or as using a cash machine. Deputy Carey spoke released, despite many of the heinous crimes they about ATMs, how easy it is to use them and how had committed. Part of the Agreement was that there has not been a difficulty with them. there should be full decommissioning within two However, I draw his attention to the rising figures years. Many other issues were dealt with in the for instances of ATMs being targeted by Agreement, such as the disbandment of the RUC criminals. Only last weekend there was an article and the establishment of the PSNI. We would like in one of the Sunday newspapers about this. those issues to be sorted out as well. Criminals are able to get the information on the There is a new situation in Northern Ireland. PIN card, put a piece into the machine and then The lack of progress means the two extremes are use the person’s ATM card. That should not be now in control. There is a major onus on the DUP held up as an example of how simple, transparent and Sinn Fe´in to come to grips with the situation and incorruptible the system is. Certainly, ATMs and not to allow the progress which has been have proven to be corruptible. Figures released made in the past ten years to deteriorate. I know by the banking sector show banks are losing significant amounts of money as a result of fraud from talking to friends in Northern Ireland that with these machines. They are not a guide and many young people, who do not know what should not be used as such in this context. happened 20 or 30 years ago, are being led into I found it simple to operate the voting machine organisations. That is not in the best interests of in the council. However, there will be either side or of the future of this island. I beg complications. There were three ballot papers for my colleagues in Sinn Fe´in, with whom I have the town council, county council and European worked over the years, to do whatever they can, elections. One concern with the machine is that with the Irish and British Governments, to make the writing at the top is difficult to see. It is the Good Friday Agreement finally work. yellow, digital style writing. When people press I spent many years from the mid-1960s in farm the yellow button a second time, whether through organisations and during that time I travelled error or otherwise, they cast their vote and the throughout Europe and, as chairman of the decision is made. That happens quickly. European beef and veal committee, I represented Should the Government proceed with this the Irish livestock sector. I met and worked system, what are the plans for informing people? closely with farmers from Northern Ireland and It will require more than just the distribution of those involved in agri-business who came from all leaflets to every household and advertisements sides of the divide. It was a baptism of fire when on television. I use the Internet every day and do I was elected in 1991 to the county council and my banking through the Internet but that is not the barriers were erected. It was more difficult to the case with everybody. What are the plans for meet people from both sides of the political giving people information, particularly those for divide in Northern Ireland. Deputy O´ Caola´in whom a leaflet will be an insufficient example of was a member of that council. If an atrocity how the machine works? A significant proportion happened in Northern Ireland or elsewhere, it of the population still does not use ATMs, the was impossible to achieve unanimous Internet or e-mail. The number who do is condemnation. We have come a long way since growing but we cannot assume that everybody then. However, we must ensure that the Good can use them. Friday Agreement is finally implemented and There will be complications when two or more achieves its objectives. ballot papers are involved. If the referendum is I welcome this debate. I hope it will result in to be held on 11 June as well, I do not know how people will be able to read the four ballot papers unanimity that will move the process forward for on the screen. The machine was used in the last the sake of not just the 3,000 who died but the referendum in a number of constituencies but 651 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 652

[Ms Enright.] that was not stamped. It is true that no vote was voting “Yes” or “No” is different from voting for stamped by the returning officer in a polling 14 or 15 names on a ballot paper. The capability station in the Ferbane area of County Offaly in of the machine in getting the result in either the last local elections and the entire turn-out in situation is different as well. that polling booth was spoilt as a result. The The person’s perception of the system will people in that area did not go out to vote with decide whether he or she will vote. The the intention of spoiling their votes. We have perception is negative at present. The Opposition been given no reasonable explanation for this is not to blame for this. We have a duty to oppose happening. Obviously, the physical explanation is and expose when we anticipate difficulties, and that whoever was employed and paid as returning we anticipate difficulties with this. The use of IT officer did not do his or her job. However, all in schools is also relevant. The Taoiseach has, on those votes were lost. In this case the mistake was a number of occasions, hailed Ireland as being to visible and one could see what votes the the forefront in the use of technology. I am not candidates would have received. The result would anxious to disagree with him on that because have been the same in any event. disagreement might reflect negatively on the There are flaws in the old system. In the Borris- country and I have no wish to do that. However, in-Ossory electoral area in the last local elections we must look at the reality and the relevant the count lasted five days. It was the subject of a figures. The Taoiseach speaks about how far book, Count, Recount and Petition. It eventually advanced Ireland is in the use of technology but ended up in court on a petition. What is we were unable to provide the technology for important about this is that people could see the this system. voting system as it was, flaws and all. When the When discussing technology, it is useful to election result went to court, every vote that was consider a recent OECD report which showed at issue between the two candidates was that Irish school children and their schools examined in the court challenge and the judge believe their performance is being held back by gave his opinion on each. The public could see a lack of computers and laboratory equipment. each of the votes. If there are any such questions Ireland is 11th of the 15 EU member states in with the electronic voting system, we will not see the use of technology in schools and the ratio of as clearly what, if anything, went wrong. computers to pupils. We should not, therefore, People seem to believe that nothing will go clap ourselves on the back in this regard. Our wrong and that the system is flawless. We do not pupil-computer ratio at present is 1:11.5 whereas know that, however, and that is the point at issue. in Denmark the ratio is 1:3. How is the Deputy Andrews referred to an article in The Government dealing with this? In the last budget Irish Times today in which two computer experts \20 million was slashed from the technology for write about the future of electronic voting and schools programme. That is something that call for a rational debate on the subject. They should be borne in mind. If we are to start using refer to so-called experts. I am not an expert and electronic voting, we must consider the issue of the 166 Members of this House cannot be experts IT in schools. on everything but we still have a duty to inform Many speakers on all sides of the House have ourselves and deal with the legislation that comes spoken about going into schools and speaking to before us. The Deputy used the article as an transition year and CSPE students. I asked earlier argument for the proposition from the about the Government’s plans for informing the Government side of the House. However, one people who will vote on 11 June, but what plans part of the article gave the reason for having a does it have to inform people in the education verifiable paper trail even though the experts system about electronic voting and how to use it? claimed it was not needed. Until now the best way to show students how our The question was asked whether there was a style of PR with the single transferable vote way in which any voting system, manual or works was to explain the voting system from start computerised, could be made 100% safe from to finish, organise a mini-election with ballot unwanted interference. There is not. If someone papers, voting, a count and a result. That shows wants to corrupt the manual vote, then given a clearly how it works. Will there be a method in reason, they will find a way. It may be much more schools to demonstrate the voting machine and difficult to interfere with a machine, and the how it works? That brings us back to the problem phrase used is that it would be a “big ask”, but it of not being able to see how it works when using could happen and that has been acknowledged. a machine. However, we still must educate school That is why we need the voter-verifiable paper children about the voting system. That issue must trail. be tackled. Section 9 provides that a print-out will be made The main concern with electronic voting is the before voting commences, while section 11 result and its accuracy. Deputy Cassidy seems to includes a requirement that a print-out be made be an expert on my constituency and referred to when voting closes. Section 12 includes a incidents that occurred there. I am familiar with requirement for a print-out to be made before the some of the cases he mentioned. Two elections inputting of postal votes begins. However, certain ago one of our urban district council candidates subsections specifically preclude a challenge to an lost in the election by one vote. He had one vote election result on the basis of failure to produce 653 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 654 the print-outs required. What on earth is the information on the votes cast. He or she will point of having the print-outs if they cannot be provide by regulation for the provision, at the used in a subsequent challenge to the election conclusion of the counting of votes in an election result? That makes no sense. We are including or referendum, of statistical information on a something that appears to be a safeguard but is specified proportion of the poll concerned, not one because it cannot be used. The legislation including detailed information on the votes cast clearly states that the print-outs cannot be used, and comprised in that specified proportion. which is questionable. The Minister of State Section 29(2) states that the format, content and should explain the point of this provision but I extent of the information which may be provided, cannot see how can he say this safeguard is pursuant to those regulations, shall be such that worthwhile. the secrecy of the ballot is preserved. Section 16 is similar to Article 13 of the We are leaving this up to the Minister by statutory instrument and section 47 of the 2001 regulation and, if we are honest, there is little Act in that it deals with the recounting of votes discussion of such regulations. They are in the event of a challenge. Section 16 provides introduced and enacted. While I do not subscribe that all votes cast at the election shall be counted to conspiracy theories, I question giving this afresh. The wording of the section would be power to any Minister as it is undemocratic. Can significant for ballot papers and so on, but I do he or she decide to pick certain areas where he not see how it can work with electronic voting. If or she feels that the old tally-style results or the all votes are to be counted afresh, will there still results from particular boxes should be disclosed be a random selection? One cannot programme while the results of other boxes should not be? the machine to do the exact same thing with the That is the power being granted to the Minister, exact same votes as far as I know, although the which is wrong. Minister of State should clarify that. I do not see Subsection (3) provides for the means by which how this section will be practical. It requires more the information concerned is provided to persons discussion because it seems pointless. and also provides that there may be payment of Part 3 establishes the commission on electronic a reasonable fee in respect of such provision, voting on a statutory basis, but I see no prospect which is a bit like the Freedom of Information of the commission being able to examine the Act trick. People have to pay for those requests issues that will be raised on Committee Stage or and the numbers applying for information have that I raise, namely, the reliability, security, come down. One can argue the merits or demerits integrity and verifiability of the electronic voting of that situation but paying a fee to find out how system. The Bill does not state whether the an election was conducted or the results of certain Government will act on or implement the report counts in an election is wrong. Section 29 should of the commission. As it stands, if the be amended because giving such powers to any Government does not want to, it does not have Minister would be wrong. I ask the Government to bother doing so. That is how the legislation is in the interests of democracy not to proceed with framed, which is unacceptable. the provision as worded. When the commission produces its final report, it will cease to exist. Instead of having a Mr. Blaney: At the outset I was concerned by commission which can examine all the issues and the new system but, as time goes on, I am being bring other bodies which deal with elections convinced by it. I may be fully convinced by the together with the Department of the first opportunity to see it in operation. Environment, Heritage and Local Government, It is time we moved on. We should not follow we will have a short-term commission. It is being the British way and be the last to change in established to ensure this Bill is passed and, to anything. Anything would have been better than make people happy, it will appear independent. the old system in which I have seen many flaws However, people will not be happy with it. For over the years. This will be considerably more example, why has the Ombudsman been excluded tamper-proof than the old system. I have gone to when she is a member the other three counts where up to 50 ballot papers from one box commissions: the Standards in Public Office were not stamped and were ruled out as a result. Commission, the Referendum Commission and I remember the 1984 Connacht-Ulster European the Constituency Commission. The Comptroller election count in Bundoran, where there was a and Auditor General is also a member two of difference of 5,000 first preference votes in one those commissions and he has also been excluded recount. This system will be much better than the from this body. Why is that? They are old system which may have had more flaws than independent people who have done a good job people knew about. and have something to offer in this area. More reform is required, not so much of the Section 29, which provides for the release of electronic system but of the registration statistical information on the votes cast, is of requirements for independent candidates. In a concern to me. Deputy Carey was concerned council election an independent candidate must earlier that I would be upset because the tallyman get 15 people from the register of electors to would be gone, but I will not be upset because I register his name as a candidate. That number hope not to be tallying next time out. The rises to 30 members of the public for a general Minister will be in charge of the release of election. That is unconstitutional and should be 655 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 656

[Mr. Blaney.] will eventually cost \60 million. The easiest way examined. It is unfair that independent it sits on people’s minds is that it is equivalent candidates must do this and, more importantly, to four Punchestown projects rolled into one. We the secrecy of the identity those 30 people goes know the reaction we got to the \15 million spent out the window. For that reason it is on Punchestown and the evaluation that went unconstitutional and I ask the Minister to into that project. We are aware of the feedback examine this with a view to introducing from the public to all the Ministers but they did legislation to resolve the problem. not learn from it. I will return to that issue in I am also concerned by the ease with which a moment. votes can be registered. Previous speakers Who wants electronic voting? We will go referred to personation. If the Minister of State through the matter to see who actually wants it. looks at County Donegal he will see that before What effect has electronic voting on the image long the number on the register will be equal to of Ireland abroad? I heard the Minister for the the population. At that stage one will wonder if Environment, Heritage and Local Government there is anybody in Donegal under the age of 18. speak on this topic a couple of weeks ago. He The number on the register is way over what it said it was a new step in technology and that it should be. Certainly reform is required. would be great for our image abroad. Let us take Impersonating at polling booths is a big a look at what exactly it would or would not do. problem. One hears quietly, here and there, what What losses would be incurred by the loss of is going on. It should be necessary for every inward foreign investment if we never moved to person to have a photo ID at a polling station and electronic voting? We would not lose a penny. If to show it to the presiding officers. I am very we take the path of electronic voting will there much against a constitutional referendum. If we be fewer holiday makers in Ireland in 2004? It are to have local elections, European elections would not make any difference. Would what we and a possible constitutional referendum on the are doing with electronic machines have any one day and want a good turn-out on the effect on interest rates on the continent? I do not electronic voting system, I suggest the screen think so. I cannot understand the international should not be cluttered with too many ballots. significance. I heard the Minister speak on this a The introduction of the electronic system would couple of times in the House and I am mystified not be helped by holding the constitutional as to from where he can draw that conclusion. referendum as well. I have no hang-up about electronic voting in The lobby for a spoilt vote is crazy and I cannot the sense that I have been a Member of this understand it. Voting should be compulsory. The House a long time. I will shed few tears for the 30% or 40% who do not vote could change the whole political scene if they were unhappy with tallying system and for hanging around for 12 who represents them at whatever level. hours waiting to see the outcome. As the years There is a problem with presiding officers in go by, the statistics clearly show that as a Donegal. Many of them have held such positions percentage of those eligible to vote, fewer people for 30 or 40 years plus. The new county registrar are doing so. That phenomenon is not new to is ill-informed on the old practice of delivering most other countries. ballot boxes to collection points after the close of If a Government wanted to get behind the polling. Directives that should have been given reasons people do not vote, would it not be better \ on the day of polling were not handed down the to use part of that 60 million in a different way? line to presiding officers with the result that they I shall suggest some of the ways it will lose their positions. They have not been told 9 o’clock could be done in a moment. We are individually but they have heard through the getting to the stage where almost half grapevine that they will lose their positions. That the electorate do not vote. I have my views as to is not good enough and somebody should go in why they do not vote. In certain parts of the and sort the matter out. country and in parts of Dublin the number voting is less. I see no effort being made by the Mr. Connaughton: Much has been said here Government, or most other Governments, to try during recent weeks about electronic voting. to discover the specific underlying reason they do There is nothing I could possibly think of that not vote. Do not try to tell me the introduction would be new. However, there are a number of of an electronic machine at the polling station in questions I want to ask the Government. There Mountbellew will ensure more people come out are a number of questions thousands of ordinary to vote. That will not happen. I have anecdotal members of the electorate would like to ask if evidence that suggests that a certain section of they got the chance to come in here. the people will have difficulty coming to terms Electronic voting is a service which the with this system, although I appreciate that if they Government is providing to the people and one go to the polling station they will not have much they did not require. Certainly it is a service they trouble with it. The fear of the unknown is the did not want. Not a single constituent in East problem. We will lose a cohort of people who Galway asked me to make representations with always regarded voting as an important civic duty. regard to electronic voting. I did not have a single Many of the elderly have told me they will not letter of telephone call on the issue. The service vote because they think it is very difficult. If that 657 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 658 is all we get out of electronic voting, someone has vote lightly, as we know. It is the business of got it awfully wrong. Members to try to get the people to vote for us, There is a more sinister reason for those but when they vote, they do not like to think electronic machines. They will be like mushrooms there has been any messing around with a system all over Ireland on 11 June. The Minister for the they are used to and which, for all its faults, was, Environment, Heritage and Local Government is by and large, regarded as fair. on an ego trip. He is not without a certain number I have no idea how electronic voting will work, of ego trips and is given to them when he gets and I think no other Member has either. going. They feed into a Government that has However, the method by which it was to be become arrogant. If a Government has spent 17 implemented left much to be desired. Many feel or 18 years of the past 20 years in Government, that the Government should have had an arrogance comes naturally. It comes from the independent process from which politics was belief that the Government can do what it likes, removed. That this was not the case was a when it likes, and take less notice of the people fundamental blunder which, again, is connected than normal. When the Minister for Finance was to the Government’s arrogance. The Minister for asked about the controversy surrounding the now the Environment, Heritage and Local famous Punchestown centre, he replied in typical Government believes he can walk on water — a fashion that it was a fine building. This was as dangerous assumption. Given that many accept much as to say he could not give a hoot what that electronic voting may work — I accept it has others thought, but that he and the Minister for worked elsewhere — why did the Government Agriculture and Food believed it was a good idea. not remove politics from this process and appoint Whether the project was well evaluated, they an independent electoral commission? It went ahead with it. appointed a half-hearted commission only after At the local elections on 11 June, many voters uproar among the media and Opposition. The will stand back and decide that the Government tactician behind this got it wrong if he or she needs to be taught a lesson. Given a combination thought the public would accept that the Minister of factors, including electronic voting, many, for the Environment and Local Government, the including those normally supporting the main mover of this ego-trip which he believed Government parties, may stay at home, although would be his legacy, could decide one day to I do not believe they will change sides introduce electronic voting and, the following dramatically. This will hit Fianna Fa´il. When a day, be selected as Fianna Fa´il director of party is in power for so long, the objectives and elections. principles for which it stood — I accept that Fianna Fa´il has done much good for the country Ordinary people with no great interest in — become blurred, particularly when the politics reacted with huge suspicion, as might economy is doing well. have been expected. I have heard said by some The question of value for money is beginning who are not in any way dyed in the wool to be blurred by the Government. As a member politically that this is a throw-back to the times of the Committee of Public Accounts, I am when Fianna Fa´il tried to get rid of proportional regularly made aware, through the good offices of representation. I have been around long enough the Comptroller and Auditor General, that every to remember the 1959 and 1968 referenda, single Department appears capable of losing although they took place a long time ago and a millions of euro unnecessarily and speedily. In an whole generation know nothing of them. economy using modern technology and counter- However, on the days of the referenda, Fianna balances, this should not happen. It only does so Fa´il won the other votes run in conjunction with because of the arrogance which has entered this them — one was a presidential election — but Government and which it is now difficult to lost the votes on proportional representation. remove. Electronic voting has become caught up There is a correlation between those instances in this but if the public sees this as I do, Fianna and the current thinking of the people. Fa´il will get an answer on 11 June which it does I have no problem with those appointed to the not expect. commission as they have great experience and I cannot understand how the Government expertise. However, I question why the handled other aspects of this issue so badly. Any Comptroller and Auditor General and the change in voting procedure is fundamental to the Ombudsman were not included. It would have way people think and act, in Ireland and all over been just as easy to ensure they were, and the the world. We in Ireland have reached a stage Government would have covered all options if it where the people are so used to elections that had appointed them. That they were not contempt for the process is bred, and many do appointed leaves the sneaking suspicion that the not vote. It has been pointed out in this debate commission was set up for one reason, to try to that one could only look in awe at the situation in get over the people’s lack of trust in electronic emerging nations where people would walk miles voting. Although it seems likely the Government through the bush and wait long hours to vote. will drive this measure through the Oireachtas, While we have moved a long way from that, whether it is good for Ireland and its democracy ingrained in the minds of the people is a is another question. If the elderly tell me they will fundamental value for their vote — they do not find it difficult to vote because of their fears of 659 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 660

[Mr. Connaughton.] getting a bad deal in the form of a badly thought voting machines, one cannot say where this will out proposal from a Government that has finish. become arrogant. If this is all it can offer the On the issue of value for money, it must be people, it is on the wrong track. asked whether we could better spend \60 million on behalf of taxpayers. The Minister first Mr. C. Lenihan: I wish to share time with my introduced this with a price tag of \30 million, colleague, Deputy Kelly. How much time is which then rose to \50 million. Given the available to me under this arrangement? experience in this country, we can rest assured that the cost will be 50% higher than the original An Ceann Comhairle: There is 20 minutes baseline figure, which happens in regard to roads, available in the speaking slot. sewerage and otherwise. There is no reason to believe that by the time people start voting on 11 Mr. C. Lenihan: I am not quite clear how that June, this will not be over \60 million. is divided so I wanted to clarify it. The question is whether it could be better spent. The widows of Ireland would certainly An Ceann Comhairle: That is not a matter for think so and they would be right. The penny- the Chair. pinching in their respect in recent weeks is nothing short of a disgrace. I went to the trouble Mr. C. Lenihan: I welcome the opportunity to of tabling a parliamentary question, as so many contribute to this valuable debate. I note with Deputies do in respect of many hundreds of interest that there has been great interest among schools. It concerned a school in Killeaney, the backbenchers on both sides of the House in outside Craughwell. All they wanted was a contributing to the debate. It reflects more than chance to build two or three extra classrooms and anything else the affection in which the old they were prepared to fund much of the cost system is held that the House has heard so many themselves. The news from the Minister was that pronouncements of gravity both from the Labour it could not be done. He said they were on band Party and Fine Gael regarding the introduction three which is a system in the Department of of the new system. It seems that the people who Education and Science which means it could be are ranged against this proposal are a four, five or six years before the project is put combination of those with the Luddite tendency out to tender. That is where the \60 million could and those who do not want to come into the 21st be used. century and prefer the 20th century for a whole I will not list all the problems in the area of host of reasons. On the left-wing side of the health. Young married couples on low incomes House, it would appear that certain old cannot get medical cards for their young children. Bolsheviks hate giving up the 20th century I believe the electorate will decide it got bad because, in a sense, that century was one of value and does not want electronic voting Bolshevism and socialism—— because it does not improve our country and certainly does not appear to do anything to foster Mr. Costello: Academic Luddites. democracy. It is an abuse of power. Mr. C. Lenihan: ——and rather foolish views It is becoming more difficult to persuade young about how humanity could be changed if one only people to vote. This is a phenomenon which held up the red flag and forced a particular exists not alone in our democracy but in many ideology on others. others. A Government that is so interested in having people vote by electronic means should Mr. Costello: I thought the Deputy was a consider the evening of 11 June which is one of member of the Labour Party in Britain. the longest of the year. I hope it will be a nice, fine evening. My understanding is that polling Mr. C. Lenihan: On the Fine Gael side I stations will close at 9 p.m. One would have suspect that the opposition to this measure is assumed that they would at least be open until characteristic yet again of the confusion that 10 p.m. to allow the cohort of people attending seems to exist in that party. universities and institutes of technology or working in Dublin to return to Cork, Limerick, Mr. Connaughton: There is no confusion. Galway and the provinces. It is difficult to leave Dublin at 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. and be in Ballinasloe Mr. C. Lenihan: Here is a party that ostensibly before 9 p.m. to vote. I do not understand why 10 supported the smoking ban, yet its chief p.m. was not chosen, especially as 11 June is spokesman for matters of justice and law almost the longest day of the year. enforcement — even more grave than the health It is against that background that I express my spokesman — undermined that support—— opposition to the introduction of electronic voting. I am not against the concept but there are Mr. Connaughton: He would not be fired in doubts about the security of this system. I do not Fianna Fa´il. He could smoke a pipe in Fianna understand why the paper trail has not been Fa´il. included to give an assurance to people who vote that their vote has been registered. We are Mr. Ellis: They do not sack them in Fianna Fa´il. 661 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 662

Mr. C. Lenihan: ——and outlined the utter believe in conspiracies and way-out philosophies confusion that appears to reign in Fine Gael these and ideas and those who wish to remain and live days by saying he was against it. In recent days in the real world of real ideas and real change. that same spokesman has asserted with abandon That seems to define the difference between both that he was right, and this is despite that, when sides of the House. People on the Opposition given every opportunity to do so in this House, benches will oppose the use of Shannon Airport where it counts, to vocalise his discontent or by American military aircraft but support it in objection to this measure, he sat on his hands and another way, will oppose electronic voting but said nothing. He did not say he was against the support it in another way, and will oppose the smoking ban but proceeded to the bar and, in a smoking ban but support it in another way. That moment of madness, declared that he was against kind of duality seems to be swimming through the the ban while he voted for it in the Da´il. system and I abhor it. There is no great conspiracy where electronic Mr. Connaughton: Does the Deputy know if he voting is concerned. It is a simple item of lost his memory? technology. It is noteworthy that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of our citizens, have Mr. C. Lenihan: There is a class of self-serving already adopted this technology when booking politician in this House who discreetly leaks to airline tickets or spending hours on the Internet the media that he or she is against unpopular making purchases or shopping. measures, but I did not hear any word that People have long been used to ATMs, which Deputy Deasy had let even a word slip to the have entered folklore. This technology is not new media which congregate around and outside this and people feel safe with it. It is noteworthy that House. It would be surprising but is not in the when ATMs were introduced there was context of a Fine Gael party that seems to be considerable suspicion that the cash dispenser schizophrenic in its Christian democratic and would not count money correctly and people social democratic wings. It seems that the party is would be defrauded. Nowadays, according to the riven by these two different instincts. Deputy banks, hardly anyone seeks a print-out or Deasy is clearly on the libertarian side of the statement of the balance in their accounts House. He believes in smoking if one wishes. because they trust the system and are not Vote for the ban but smoke anyhow. suspicious. Unlike the Green Party, Deputies Rabbitte and An Ceann Comhairle: The use of tobacco is far Kenny and other speakers, people are not removed from the issue of electronic voting. The Luddites who claim there is a conspiracy behind Deputy should go back to the Bill. the use of ATMs to which they are not privy or that banks quietly rearrange accounts when one Mr. C. Lenihan: A level of confusion reigns in withdraws money. The harsh reality is that the Fine Gael and it seems that party is being led by only way one can have money seized from one’s Deputy Rabbitte rather than Deputy Kenny. The account at an ATM is if a nefarious character former has entered into the twilight zone-type sticks something into the machine to stop cash argument that is so appealing to the Green Party dropping into the box, a rather basic form of and other fringe left-wing parties on the issue of fraud. There is no fraud involved in the electronic voting. Deputy Rabbitte has resorted electronics or technology used in ATMs. to his old stock in trade which is the grand Much of the brouhaha on this issue appears to conspiracy luridly painted up, namely, Fianna be an effort by the Opposition parties to Fa´il will miraculously manufacture a majority out undermine citizens’ faith in democracy. This will of this new electronic voting system. That is what not work because people are much more savvy the Opposition is trying to say. It is an insult to than Opposition Members allow in their rhetoric the intelligence of the electorate, not to mention and the assertions they use in debates. the intelligence that resides on this side of the People are fairly comfortable with electronic House. I do not think we could ever try to do systems. Cash accounts for only 6% of such a thing. transactions in the economy of Iceland, with all It is pure craziness but of the sort that, once on others fully electronic. The increasing use of the Internet, tends to be believed by people on systems of electronic payments and transfers will the green-left fringe who attend anti-globalisation result in such systems becoming the norm rather marches, have gold credit cards and travel to than the exception. While this country is rather Milan or Genoa to assert and effect change slow in this regard, with most transactions cash against the major capitalist conspiracies that exist based, younger people here are comfortable with in these world fora. When it comes to changing electronic systems. things at home, they sit on their hands and are The electronic voting system introduced by the extremely conservative. Minister for the Environment, Heritage and The defining point in our political system at Local Government is very safe. One of the most present is where one positions oneself regarding nonsensical comments in this debate is the claim electronic voting. It says a lot about one’s that the system is untried. It has been tried and orientation. There is now an intellectual and tested in the Netherlands, Germany and the ideological chasm between those who are wont to United Kingdom and worked in all three. Its 663 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 664

[Mr. C. Lenihan.] supporters and settle scores. I remember some introduction did not cause a major furore or members of my party taking a vicarious pleasure result in a fundamental appraisal of the in the fact that the RTE news bulletins led with democratic system of these states. People what was obviously a wildly inaccurate tally accepted it and moved on. suggesting the then Deputy Des O’Malley would The system has also been tried and tested here, lose his seat. While there was no doubt the report with 400,000 voters using it in the most recent was inaccurate, members of the party enjoyed the referendum without a word of complaint. It is prospect of their ancient foe losing his seat, even noteworthy that neither the Labour Party nor the if it was not about to become a reality. This sort Fine Gael Party made grave complaints or of nonsense is turned into lore and people advanced conspiracy theories when the system romanticise the old system in a misty-eyed way. was used in selected constituencies for the second There was nothing particularly humane, referendum on the Nice treaty. No hue and cry interesting or wonderful about the system. While was raised on that occasion. it produced great moments and excellent According to the coverage of the use of the television, I have no doubt the new system will electronic system in the previous general election, produce as much drama, now that the count the only hue and cry raised in this House at the process will be slowed down and the machine will time was connected to the typical civility and feed out its print-out of the counts in a slow, concern of Members for the plight of another deliberate fashion. For those who like the old Member, in this case former Deputy Owen. The system, a small part of it has been retained in the only accusation that can be levelled at Members, new system. one which is often made outside the House, is The electronic system is more efficient in that we look after ourselves too much, given that tabulating, collecting and releasing election the greatest concern expressed about the results for the public to examine and analyse. electronic voting system after the previous There will be plenty of analysis of swings on general election related to the plight of Nora election night in 2007 and after the local and Owen who, it was stated, received the result too European elections in June. I suspect that the quickly and found it difficult to deal with failing change will be similar to the difference between to be re-elected to the Da´il. premier league soccer in Britain and baseball in The nice, caring Minister has adjusted the the United States, where fabulous statistics are process to make it less harsh and mollify those produced around the game. One will see lots of who raised a hue and cry about the inhumanity statistics with the new system and there will be of the electronic system and the ruthlessness with no change in terms of the wealth of information which it spilled out the entirely accurate result that can be produced. These wonderful machines in the previous general election. One will not be are more accurate. There will be less inadvertent informed of the loss of one’s seat by a sudden spoiling of votes, although obviously a person spilling out of the result and a quick count who wishes to spoil his or her vote can still do so announcement. The Minister has doffed his cap by not pressing the Cast Vote button. to the Luddite tendency and slowed down the The new system is a marvellous improvement, machine. He decided to give the Opposition what which will also eliminate the terrible, long- it wants, namely, slow motion politics, similar to standing problem of large overtime bills slow motion football, where one sees all the goals associated with contested results in constituencies being scored in slow motion, or the modern habit in which counts go on for seven, eight or ten days. of Sky News, which produces an excellent service I believe my grandfather was involved in a count of showing the action replays that people love. lasting 13 days. Former Deputy Briscoe had to The Minister is providing for slow motion results wait for two or three weeks for a result and we and possibly even action replays for Members had a long count in Cork during the previous who lose their seats. Is that not marvellous? election. The public is neither better off nor wiser as a result of long, slow counts in which people Mr. Costello: There will be no paper trail. fuss over votes and whether ballot papers have been properly filled in. Mr. C. Lenihan: We have heard a great deal of People confuse the electronic voting system misty-eyed romanticism concerning the count. It with the mechanical system operated in America is constantly stated that the count is marvellous where a hole is punched in the ballot sheet. This and highly mathematical, with polymaths being method leads to significant problems, as we saw used to try to calculate which way the trend, vote, in the most recent presidential election in the transfers or swing will go. Much of what has been United States, where every state has a different said about the count is nonsense. Counts are not rule about what indicates a clear preference. particularly scientific or accurate. My experience None of this will feature in the electronic system. of tallies in the 1980s, for example, was that they The daft practice of bringing in senior counsel were widely inaccurate and sometimes to decide whether a preference is for Deputy mischievous. Kelly, Lenihan, Costello or whomever will also be Some activists in certain parties apparently eliminated. It is about people making themselves wrote up the dire consequences of particular important and is irrelevant. People are interested candidates not being elected to frighten their in results. As Jack Charlton once stated, it is the 665 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 666 result that counts. That is what people want from When sensible people lose an election they electronic voting, not all the messing that takes blame the public. Brian Farrell once asked a place. loosing candidate in an election what had gone The paraphernalia of elections and counts is wrong, and the candidate replied that he simply attractive to political activists and enthusiasts, but did not get enough votes. That flattened Brian outside the limited base of those with an interest Farrell for a few minutes. That is the nature of in politics who go canvassing and so forth, all of politics and elections. If a candidate does not win, whom are wonderful and committed people, it is because he or she did not get enough votes. there are few others major fans of the political Under the new system the votes will at least be process. People want to get the result so that the counted more accurately, so a candidate will Government can get on with governing the know to the percentage point by how much he or country. Most governments get re-elected on the she has lost an election. basis that they do not badger the public with reform, nonsense and drama and things they do Dr. Cowley: People have a difficulty with trust not want to hear about and uncertainty of one at the moment and that is the kernel of the kind or another. This system provides certainty. debate. Under the old system, people could see It has done so in Holland and Germany and in the ballot boxes being opened and the votes the UK to a lesser extent. We have used it counted. Man has put a man on the moon and ourselves and it is now time to move on to this has sent rockets to faraway planets. It should be system. within our expertise to devise an electronic We set ourselves a very brave target. This system which is to the satisfaction of the people crosses both parties. I would not claim that my and which is transparent. The citizen must be sure party has a monopoly on wisdom on this issue. the vote cast is for the candidate for whom he or The rainbow government tried to position this she has voted. There is a perception in people’s country on the cutting edge of the development minds that the proposed system does not allow of new technology unleashed in the wake of the that to happen. Internet We had a technology bubble and a I am concerned that a system has been put into “boom-bust” cycle there, but this technology is place at an enormous cost of more than \45 important and gives Ireland a leading edge. We million. How can we afford this system when in must concentrate on that. That is a cross party my county, 21 people were on trolleys in hospital issue and not a case of Fianna Fa´il versus the rest and people could not even get in to the accident as is normally the case. It is simply an idea shared and emergency department because ill people across all these benches that we must adopt new were clogging it up? People that needed attention technology and we must move on to this new and could not receive it as they were on trolleys. exciting platform and the freedom it offers from These were ill people who had been assessed as the nonsense that went on in the past. There is a needing a bed, yet there was no bed for them. I verifiable audit paper trail, despite the canard wonder where all this money is coming from. that has been flung out in the public domain to In my county there are vast areas crying out be believed by certain zealots. for development. Communities have put together some wonderful projects but there is no money Mr. Costello: Fair play to the Deputy for to fund them. We are told that all the money that finding it. was earmarked for the west was not there. However, there is plenty money available for Mr. C. Lenihan: If Deputy Costello wishes to electronic voting. challenge the results in his area at the next What is being proposed is very bad value general election, legally or otherwise, this considering that we have a system that works. wonderful machine introduced by Deputy Cullen These machines will have to be maintained and will give out all the results so that the Deputy can stored in a safe place when not in use. This will check all the individual ballots. Machines and cost a great deal of money. They may only rarely new technology can come and go. The law and be used in a five year period. That is surely bad the Constitution are there to protect the Deputy value for money in an age of transparency. This from the awful experience of being on the brink is what is wrong with the Government. There are of losing his seat and questioning whether ten 200,000 people promised medical cards who have votes have gone missing. The old system was not got them and yet they can spend \45 million much worse in this respect because it was on gadgets that we do not need. It is more arbitrary. The result could change from one count important that the money be made available for to the other. The new system will be absolutely special needs children, for parents who cannot scientific, one will know when one has lost his or bring their children to the local doctor because her seat. If one wants to complain he or she can they can not afford to do so. go to the High Court and blame the machine I am in favour of electronic voting but if I instead of the public. speak against it I am classed as someone who is 667 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 668

[Dr. Cowley.] However, they do not know from Adam where living in the past. If people had confidence in the their vote will end up when they press it. This system and if there were safeguards built in, then lack of trust is based on the daily spoon-feed of there would be general acceptance of what is tribunals, in which the integrity of even our being proposed. We have heard stories of leading politicians is being questioned daily. It is computer hackers interfering with the electronic also based on the spend before the general system, neutralising the vote recording election, in which the Government achieved a mechanism. We have all seen programmes like majority the people feel it did not deserve. “Mission Impossible” where people can Everybody is familiar with computers and we substitute one briefcase for another. Let us all know how one can change things around on imagine a machine, in which electronic votes are computer. For example, one could change the stored, is transferred to a central computer. What colour of somebody’s hair or the colour of the would happen if someone substituted one sky or the fields. Therefore, people are suspicious machine for another? That may be simplistic but deep down that political parties will manipulate the reality is that people see potential flaws in the electronic system in some way to suit the system. It could change the entire course of themselves. Even if there is to be no deliberate government here and people see it as interfering interference with vote results, people fear errors with their democratic will. may occur that could result in thousands of votes One certainty besides death is that people going astray. This is why people talk about a know they have the right to vote. They can vote paper audit trail. They need reassurance that a out a bad government if they choose. That is now hard copy back-up exists which can be checked being interfered with and it is seen as a problem. to show conclusively that the choice they made is We are witnessing increasing apathy among the one they intended to make and that it has voters, especially among young people. We do found its way into the ballot box. not need any more cynicism among young One cannot blame people for wanting this people. There are many things that can be done reassurance and verification that the system is to improve democracy. We know from surveys working. We would all like it. There are real fears carried out that there is a difficulty with that the system will not work. It would be very registration. Many young people are unable to detrimental for the Government to ignore these vote and it is more important to encourage very real concerns. Anything that could people to register. We should find out how undermine democracy is not good. It is very difficult is the problem in registering. If the same interesting to note that there is a paper audit trail vigour was applied to those issues as it has been in some jurisdictions. People talk about the USA, applied to electronic voting, we would have a which I suppose is the home of computers. Silicon much better democratic system. Valley is where it all started. It is very interesting People also talk about the need for a proper to note that the authorities there have major audit trail. They do so not because they want to doubts about the electronic system and now use complicate the system, but because they want to a system that produces a paper trail. be sure that there is proper verification of their People feel there is great secrecy surrounding vote. If that could be done to the satisfaction of the proposed system and that there is no proper Sea´n citizen, there would be a very different transparency regarding how electronic voting outlook. Having been elected in my county using systems work. This is feeding further cynicism the manual system — let us call it that — I noted and the suspicion that already exists. Why not that it worked fine. It is fine when one is doing make the systems available to the public so it can well. I was the first elected, which was fine, but I study them, test them and have experts look at am sure it was quite frustrating for others who them to determine how they could be improved? might have had more difficulty in getting elected. This would involve a public consultation effort I know people talk of the cut and thrust of the that would allow people to comment on the present system and say, “If it is not broken, why properties of the systems and their potential for fix it?” There is a great deal to be said for the abuse. present system. A point could be made for People also state that source codes are held changing it if we could afford to do so. secretly. As I stated, in this age when we can do People believe the present system makes good so much we should surely have a transparent television and entertainment. Why is it now being system in which source codes do not have to be changed? This is the question people are asking held by private companies. There is a suspicion because there is great mistrust in the body politic that private companies equate with big business, and great suspicion that the Government — it big money and the manipulation of the system may well deny this — is rushing the introduction for private gain. Governments might state this in of the new system. People would like to know nonsensical but it is a very real perception, which that when they press the button to cast their vote, would be confirmed if one conducted a survey. it will accomplish what they intend to accomplish. Where the electorate is concerned, the 669 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 6 April 2004. Second Stage (Resumed) 670

Government must be above suspicion, just as councillors and anybody involved in politics in Caesar’s wife must be above suspicion. It behoves the different committees, they will be told they Government to ensure that people’s fears are are all fine decent people. It is not true to say allayed by proving that electronic voting systems politics and politicians are not good; politicians cannot be manipulated by those who have the are good. I compliment the Minister and power to interfere with them. Ministers of State in the Department who are We all have computers and know how they can bringing forward this new system, namely, the crash. We know how wonderful they are as long Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, the as they work, but it is a different story when they Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, and the do not. Chaos can result. I am not happy that Minister, Deputy Cullen. everything has been done to assure the public It is important people have a say and that that the electronic voting system will work and democracy leads the way. This Government is that there will be full transparency. I do not doing a good job overall taking everything into believe there is full transparency. consideration. This Government is the best. The people should not take any chances and should Mr. Kelly: I wish to share my time with vote Government candidates back on to local Deputy Wilkinson. authorities. Democracy and voting should be number one, regardless of what people say about An Ceann Comhairle: Is that agreed? Agreed. there being no problems if we did not have democracy or good government and about our Mr. Kelly: It is time for a change in the voting not having to worry about where money would system. Irish youth are the best educated in the be spent. We have had the best five years in the world. We are world leaders in the manufacturing history of the State thanks to democracy and to and exportation of computer parts. We are politicians. number one in the world in modern technology, A speaker referred to entertainment. Politics is which is a great achievement. We will make a serious business. Running a Government and a bigger and better strides. country is a responsible job because one must I compliment all our primary, secondary, look after the needs of all. County councils and vocational, comprehensive and community town councils are doing a good job. Many schools and universities and ITs, in which we conscientious and serious people are involved in have been educating people to the highest politics. Politics is a vocation for most politicians standards. The men and women of Ireland, I know. They could be doing other things in life including parents, teachers and pupils, are to be but they choose to serve their communities. congratulated on working hard together to ensure Looking around the Chamber, I see a successful we can take our place anywhere in the world and businessman who could devote his energy and be recognised as the best, most knowledgeable, time promoting his interests and business but is visionary and educated people in the world. in this Chamber representing his constituency. Tonight there are adult education classes It is time to move on and to apply electronic taking place all over Ireland in all VECs. In voting. The Oireachtas has been dealing with County Longford, an exceptional and arrangements for it since 1999. It was announced unbelievable number of people want to be that electronic voting would take place educated and to proceed with their education. nationwide at the European and local Young people are the future and have the brains. government elections in 2004. The purpose is to All they need is the wind of the word for any new improve the efficiency, accuracy and user- project and they will pursue it themselves and friendliness of election procedures and to make sure they master it and move on. Elderly eliminate the waste of all the spoiled votes which people are quite capable and intelligent and are most believe are accidental in that people do not now educating themselves during the day. mean to spoil their votes but become confused Retired people go to community centres and and do so. cannot get enough education. It is important that our youth become more The elderly made major sacrifices to obtain the active in politics. Is this not a way to encourage vote. Voting and democracy are important and them to become more active and to say to them politics is good for the people. I am an advocate that we are progressive and young-thinking and of politicians and politics and believe the Irish are will conquer the world in all spheres, including very knowledgeable. Not only do they know their education and business? We must send the right politics but they also know their politicians. message to the youth. The youth of this country Politicians have done a good job for this have been the fastest to adapt to all types of country and the majority of them are creditable, change. We are adjustable and have proved it honourable, hard-working, decent people. If one beyond doubt. We adjusted to the euro overnight asks the people in any constituency what they while other countries talked about it. We had no think of their county councillors and town problem adjusting to decimalisation years ago. At 671 Job 6 April 2004. Losses 672

[Mr. Kelly.] dialogue, compromise, respect other people’s times I am amazed at the quickness, vision and viewpoints and listen to all our people, regardless intelligence of the people. When I travel the of whether we have the one aim. However, we in world, which I do an odd time, the Irish people I this House all have the one aim, that is, to meet are leaders in their field. They are the promote the people and Ireland and to make sure people who had vision and dreams and the ability we have a peaceful, happy and contented country to put them to practical use. They were steps in which our young people can be happy growing ahead of everybody else. up, where our teenagers can have the best education in the world and where our old people Politics has been important, and will continue can live in peace and harmony and have a rest to be. This debate on electronic voting has taken after the turmoil of life. place at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Electronic voting is important. A speaker said Environment and Local Government. I it does not make any difference internationally. I emphasise that electronic voting is secure, was flummoxed by that and do not know what to reliable and can be trusted by the people. It is say to it. We are part of the international important that, when a person goes to vote, he or community. Ireland was the first country to adopt she knows it is secret. Over the years there was the Maastricht treaty. We have led the way in much ballyhoo and talk about people trying to Europe. Although this is an island, we cannot be cod others by telling them they knew how they isolated. We must play our part, and we have voted. The other night on television I saw a done so. programme about two men living up a mountain, one of whom could tell how the other had voted Debate adjourned. to within five votes. I do not believe that. I want to see secrecy and that a person can be content that nobody knows how he or she exercised his Adjournment Debate. or her franchise. That is important. There must be a better way of doing things in ———— the 21st century. We acknowledge that in all other spheres, so why not do so in politics Job Losses. through voting? At the previous local elections, Mr. Boyle: I am grateful for the opportunity to 24,000 people had their votes disallowed because place my concerns on the record. I am saddened of mistakes. That is sad. This voting machine has it is the third occasion I have had to come to the been successfully tested by a separate House for an Adjournment debate in recent international testing institution, TNO Electronic months to talk about job losses in my Products and Services, in the Netherlands. It constituency. I hope there will be a more should not be possible to associate a vote with a animated response from the Government than I voter. There will be a voting machine to replace received previously. every ballot paper and arrangements have been Last Thursday, 1 April, Buckeye Ireland, an made to provide battery power back-up in the American company, manufacturing cellulose and event of a power failure. Conditions should be in operating from Ringaskiddy in County Cork place on polling day to allow people to exercise announced it is to cease operations, with the loss their franchise quickly and peacefully. of 83 jobs. This followed the announcement a The right message must be sent out about the number of weeks ago by the Ridge Tool secrecy of the ballot. It is important we also send Company in Mahon that it was to cease out the message that the privacy of voters is operations, with the loss of 66 jobs. This was protected. It is a duty and responsibility in free preceded by an announcement by CG Services elections that people have a right to vote. There that it was to close, with the loss of 110 jobs. At is also a duty on people to vote. Let us send out the beginning of the year, the Jetmagic airline the right message; let us change and do what the closed its operations out of Cork Airport. These people want. In recent years, the people have closures represent a loss of almost 500 jobs since proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the the beginning of the year. Many of my majority understand and react to change. We constituents were affected by the job loss have changed in every way, so now let us change announcements made in the nearby Schering our voting system. The experience of electronic Plough plant, Brinny, County Cork, and the voting to date has been a good one depending on closure announcement of Irish Distillers in North which side one is on. Mall, Cork city. I appeal to everybody to put democracy, the people, change and the youth first. Everyone says What disturbs me is the sense of complacency we need more people to vote and more people on the part of the Government in regard to all involved in politics, which we do. these announcements. Cork South-Central, which 10 o’clock Sadly, when we look around the on the surface is a prosperous constituency, has world, we see that democracy and in the course of a short few months experienced politics are the only way forward. We must have major job losses. What is even more worrying is 673 Job 6 April 2004. Losses 674 that many of these jobs were manufacturing jobs. company next week and make available its full The decisions that appear to have accompanied range of support services, including skills analysis, the making of these choices do not seem to be jobs placement, guidance and counselling the normal competitiveness reasons to which we interviews and identification of training needs sometimes hear business leaders and and courses. IDA Ireland has met the company Government representatives refer. The reality is to discuss the pending closure and agreed to assist that these jobs will not be relocated in Mexico or it in marketing the facility once it becomes China, but in Canada and Germany, where costs available with a view to sourcing a replacement equal those in Ireland. investor for the area. It is time the Government put in place special While there has been disappointing news in measures in respect of future employment in the regard to job losses in Cork recently, there have Cork city region, particularly the Cork South- also been a number of positive developments. Central constituency, which I have the honour to There are currently 134 IDA Ireland-assisted represent in this House. It is not good enough to companies in County Cork, employing stand idly by and not even comment on or put in approximately 18,000 people, which is an increase place measures that would give some crumb of of over 20% in IDA Ireland supported comfort that the economy, even if it is in general employment since 1999. In 2003, IDA Ireland good health, will somehow pick up the pieces of announced 11 new projects from overseas the job losses. These recent announcements, companies for the Cork area, with the potential when added to the announcements in recent to create up to 800 new jobs. Highlighting the years, with which the Minister will be familiar in continuing confidence in the region, four of these his constituency, lead to a sense of uncertainty, new projects were expansions of existing confusion and general unhappiness about the operations, some of which included significant state of the local economy in Cork. I hope the research and development investment. In response tonight will be better than the response addition, seven new start-ups were announced I received on my two previous Adjournment during the year, which include activities ranging debates this year. from manufacturing and international services to We are beginning to see a serious trend high value research and development based emerging. Trends can be responded to by either activities. trying to put in place measures to stop such a High value added projects in 2003 included the trend or surrendering to them. The Government’s \35 million investment in research and response to date has been to surrender to the development by GlaxoSmithKline, MA Com’s trend, which is no comfort to those who have lose investment in IC Design and Development, while their jobs in recent months. It is certainly no ACS, TR Sensors, Schlumberger, Trend Micro comfort to those of us who have a responsibility and Transas will engage in high value software to make sure confidence exists in the local development, IT support and operations economy. I will look for some solace in what the management activities. Recordati, with an Minister of State has to say in regard to the investment of \28 million and Altana, with an recent developments. investment of \70 million, will continue to expand the region’s competencies in pharmaceuticals. Minister of State at the Department of New developments at Pepsi Cola and Minelab Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. M. will include high value shared service and Ahern): The intended closure in August of the manufacturing activities. Buckeye plant, which manufacturers airlaid non- Enterprise Ireland client companies in Cork woven material at Ringaskiddy. is a disappointing undertook to invest \55.9 million last year to blow for those who will lose their jobs. The develop their businesses and are being supported Ta´naiste is conscious of the adverse effects of with Enterprise Ireland assistance packages of such a closure on the surrounding area, especially \10.5 million. Some 25% of Enterprise Ireland’s coming so soon after the recent job loss investment in the county took the form of announcements at Schering Plough, CG Services research and development and assisting and Ridge Tool Company. It is just over a month companies to develop new products and ago since the closure of Ridge Tool Company was technologies to increase their competitiveness. In debated on the Adjournment of the House. 2003, there were seven new high potential start- The Ta´naiste understands from the company ups. A particularly welcome feature was that the that the reason for the closure of Buckeye is more traditional food, consumer products and excess capacity in the airlaid industry worldwide, timber sectors performed well, investing which has led to depressed sales prices and high approximately \30 million with the assistance of unit costs, resulting in losses at the Ringaskiddy Enterprise Ireland support packages of plant. Finding alternative employment for the approximately \6.3 million. workers affected is a priority for FA´ S and the The major decentralisation package announced State development agencies. FA´ S will meet the in the budget includes more than 1,000 jobs to be 675 Schools Building 6 April 2004. Projects 676

[Mr. M. Ahern.] architectural planning, planning permission and relocated to County Cork. This move the tender process. Now it is back to square one demonstrates the Government’s commitment to and the school authorities and parents do not balanced regional development and will provide know what to do. The school cannot build what a further boost to enterprise development in it needs with the amount of money sanctioned Cork. If the Deputy examines the CSO website under the scheme for the 2004 building he will see that the number of people signing on programme. The board does not have the in the Cork region has decreased over the past finances for a new school building so I ask the two years. I assure him that the State Minister of State, who is from the same county as development agencies, under the aegis of the the people involved, to raise this matter with the Ta´naiste’s Department, will continue to actively Minister for Education and Science. promote both Cork city and county for I do not intend to give up on this matter investment and job creation. because an injustice has been done and the people of this community are entitled to a new Schools Building Projects. school, as was promised. They fulfilled the Ms O’Sullivan: I welcome the opportunity to criteria and saved the Department money. This is raise on the Adjournment the issue of the small amount of money in terms of overall building programme for Aghina national school, Department expenditure and it should be Macroom, County Cork. This project was released so the people in this small community scheduled to go ahead under the schools building get the new school they require for the health and programme 2003. It was one of 12 large scale safety of their children and because they were on primary school projects authorised to proceed to the list for the 2003 building programme. I ask construction in 2003 and is the only one of the 12 the Minister of State and the Minister for that did not go ahead under last year’s building Education and Science to sanction the building of programme. I wrote to the Minister and tabled a new school in Aghina, Macroom, County Cork, questions about the school and was told that the in the immediate future. building project did not go ahead because no cost savings could be achieved, a condition under Mr. M. Ahern: I thank the Deputy for giving which it was included in the building programme me the opportunity to outline on behalf of the for 2003. No progress has been on the issue Department of Education and Science the since then. proposals for the provision of a new school I made the case to the Minister that there were building for Aghina national school, Macroom, savings made on the original proposal. The County Cork. original Department estimate on 24 September The Department of Education and Science 2001 was for \729,281.68. Nine tenders were received an application from the board of submitted and the recommended tender was for management of the school requesting additional \610,052.98, a saving of \119,228.70 or 16.34%. accommodation. Following an examination of the The school is in a quandary as to what to do. As case architectural planning of the project far as it is concerned, it fulfilled the criteria but it commenced. The Aghina national school building was not given the go ahead. project was listed in section 4 of the 2003 school It was told by the Department that it could building programme which was published on the proceed on the basis of the small school initiative Department’s website at www.education.ie. The but the problem for the school is the scheme has intention was that this project would be an upper limit of \250,000, much less than the authorised to proceed to construction during 2003 school needs. For several years this small school subject to significant cost savings and a review of has been told that the only solution to its the enrolment levels later in the year. problems is a new two classroom school. The Pupil enrolments were reviewed because health and safety authorities have stated that a enrolment levels had declined from 44 in 1996 to new school is required and the Southern Health 28 by September 2002 and 25 by September 2003. Board has recommended that a new school The school has a principal teacher, an assistant should be built as soon as possible for health and teacher and a shared remedial-resource teacher. safety reasons and that remedial work would be With regard to the cost of the project, the insufficient to attain the necessary health and lowest tender was increased for the provision of safety standards. I am pursuing this because the a new building so that instead of a cost saving on people of this small part of County Cork have the project, the price increased. been hard done by and it is up to the Minister Officials from the Department of Education and the Department of Education and Science to and Science met the chairperson and find a solution. representatives of the board of management of Last year, the position on the list for the the school on 16 December 2003 to discuss the schools building programme led the school to enrolment position and issues relating to the believe that it had a solution. It had gone through proposed school building project. Department 677 EU Enlargement 6 April 2004. Celebrations 678 officials subsequently visited the school on 19 however, is Croke Park. We saw the success of December 2003 to review the condition of the the opening and closing concerts for the Special existing accommodation. An official again visited Olympics. We saw the quality of Irish and the school on 22 March 2004. A grant of \250,000 international musicians. Surely, we could have a was offered to the school management to address fabulous combination of Irish musicians such as the accommodation issue. The Department is Bono, Westlife, the Corrs and Christy Moore currently considering a response received from putting on display the quality of Irish music, the school management regarding the building performance and entertainment in that fabulous project and the proposed grant and will respond centre before the 25 countries and with musicians to the board shortly. contributing from the accession countries. I have I thank the Deputy for raising this matter in no doubt Croke Park would be filled for such an this House and I will bring it to the attention of event and it would have been a wonderful the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy occasion and an opportunity to present the Noel Dempsey. quality of Irish performance. It is not too late to do so yet and it should be considered. EU Enlargement Celebrations. The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism has Mr. Costello: I wish to raise the Government’s indicated that a number of events will take place proposals to celebrate the accession of the ten such as “Vectorial Elevations”, the world’s new member states of the European Union on 1 largest unique on-line art work, to which I am May 2004 and to find out why the public concert looking forward, as well as a fireworks planned for O’Connell Street was cancelled. extravaganza and the national “Day of It is incredible that the BBC and RTE should Welcomes” involving ten Irish towns and cities. plan a concert in O’Connell Street for months However, what about the country’s capital city? and only apply for a licence to Dublin City Surely, this is where the major celebration should Council in recent days and that they should take place in the form of an open air concert. May request traffic restrictions that would require the Day is the working person’s holiday which, closure of O’Connell Street for nine days. In such during Ireland’s Presidency of the EU, offers an circumstances it would be difficult to organise a opportunity to celebrate the accession with an concert while minimising disruption to traffic and event in Croke Park. Let us have a new look at to traders. If something has been planned for it and let the Government be pro-active about it months such considerations should be addressed this time. at the preliminary stage but this was not the case. On 1 May we will welcome ten new member Mr. M. Ahern: On 25 February last, the states into the European Union. This has been Minister for Art, Sport and Tourism gave details planned for years — it has been the subject of a to the House in response to questions about the constitutional referendum and much soul cultural programme being staged in the context searching here. The new entrants will increase the of Ireland’s Presidency of the EU. This extensive number of states in the European Union from 15 programme, which will see more than 250 Irish to 25, a huge event. The Government should artists and hundreds of European artists organise a major celebration to welcome the presenting work across the expanded EU, accession states. Why should the largest including here in Ireland, is one of the central celebration be organised by two broadcasting features of the Irish Presidency. concerns? I am concerned that the Government As he advised the House previously, it is has not been more pro-active. Will we simply planned that each of the ten new member states have the letter from the Taoiseach asking if we will be officially welcomed into the EU by an are interested in attending a lunch in Dublin Irish city or town in a special “Day of Welcomes” Castle on the occasion? A lunch? To celebrate on Saturday 1 May. The participating towns and this occasion? That does not sound up to the cities are Bray, Waterford, Cork, Limerick, mark. Killarney, Galway, Sligo, Letterkenny, Drogheda Already 10,000 people had bought tickets to and Kilkenny. this concert. This was not just done overnight, it was organised for months. It is extremely poor Mr. Costello: What about Dublin? planning and the Government should take the initiative. Mr. M. Ahern: This day will be part of the Why does the Government not come on board national celebrations that will involve each of the anyway? O’Connell Street is not the area for such ten towns and cities hosting distinct and engaging a celebration, particularly with the Luas works European fairs. From 22 April running through that are disrupting the area. Smithfield was until 3 May, there will be a presentation of planned as an open air venue for large gatherings “Vectorial Elevation” — the world’s unique and concerts and the Phoenix Park is an obvious largest on-line artwork. Twenty-four searchlights choice. The centre for a concert of this nature, will be located on and over the buildings in 679 Organ 6 April 2004. Transplants 680

[Mr. M. Ahern.] his family. Billy is the same age as I am — he is O’Connell Street. Every six seconds, from dawn 29 — and he has cystic fibrosis. He went to to dusk, a new design will be rendered on the sky college and got a job but soon had to stop for all to see while a large screen will display the working because of his illness. He is now confined signature and comments of the author. A to his home in Killorglin and is on oxygen 24 fireworks extravaganza in Dublin from a leading hours per day. He was a regular outgoing man European pyrotechnics company will commence who now has a very poor quality of life. He is in celebrations in the capital on Friday, 30 April. a great deal of pain but is fighting hard to hang Dublin will also see Merrion Square on. He urgently needs a lung transplant, about transformed into a colourful bazaar with which the Minister is aware. marquees, stands and stages making up the Every day that passes rapidly lessens his European fair on Saturday, 1 May. It is chances of survival and it is literally a life and anticipated that of the order of 100,000 visitors death situation for Billy. I have been aware of his will pass through the fair to enjoy the experience position for some time but his family, and his of unique and interesting produce from the new sister in particular, to whom I have spoken, were EU member states and participate in the extremely reluctant to go public on this issue in cultural activity. case it damaged Billy’s chances. They have been The Minister informed the House earlier today trying to resolve this matter behind closed doors in response to questions that RTE, in partnership for the past ten months. However, time is now with the BBC, had been working on the running out and they felt they had no option but broadcasting project entitled “A Beautiful Night” this approach which they have finally chosen. for many months. This event was designed to be My information is that until last week there was one concert with two stages, with public no lung transplant facility in Ireland. One was performances outside City Hall in Belfast and on promised in the 1997 and 2002 programmes for O’Connell Street in Dublin. It was RTE’s Government and one has now opened and I think intention that the concert should be broadcast hopes to carry out two or three transplants a year. live from Belfast and Dublin and made available In the meantime, an arrangement was brokered through the EBU network to broadcasters and by the Department of Health and Children their audiences throughout the enlarged between the ERHA and Freeman Hospital, European Union. Newcastle in which all lung transplants for Irish The two broadcasters who were responsible for people are carried out, in return for which the the organisation of this concert made a joint hospital has exclusive access to all lungs donated application to Dublin City Council for a licence in Ireland. to hold the concert in O’Connell Street. It is welcome that we now have a lung However, recently it became apparent to the transplant facility and I hope it can soon proceed broadcasters that there would be serious to carry out the greatest number of operations difficulties surrounding the traffic restrictions that possible. Unfortunately however, that facility has would have to be imposed to allow the stage to come on stream too late for Billy and be built in O’Connell Street in time to allow full approximately six other people, including another safety and sound checks, rehearsals and so on to young man who sadly passed away. Billy has been take place. waiting for a transplant for the past three and a Dublin City Council was not in a position to half years. Newcastle turned him down in facilitate the broadcasters in this context, given February 2003 because of a particular infection in that partial road restrictions would have been his lungs which is not uncommon in people with required for up to nine days in advance of the cystic fibrosis. In June 2003, however, another event. The Minister understands that the English hospital in Manchester agreed to carry broadcasters were also advised of other out the transplant if it could get a suitable lung restrictions that would have been imposed. These from the Irish pool. disruptions could have serious impact on travel This is not about queue-skipping or a clinical and trade over the bank holiday weekend. decision because Newcastle made a different Accordingly, the two broadcasters decided that, clinical decision to that made in Dublin and taking account of all the circumstances applying, Manchester. I understand there will be a review it is not feasible to proceed with the event in of this agreement in two weeks’ time and I Dublin. The Minister appreciates the reasons the wonder how long it will last. Either way, it will broadcasters could not proceed with the planned be too late for Billy. This agreement has worked concert. for some but not others. The Cystic Fibrosis Association of Ireland asks that Irish organs be Organ Transplants. made available to Irish patients, irrespective of Ms Enright: I welcome the Minister for Health where the transplant takes place. and Children. It gives me no pleasure to raise this We are not talking about numbers or waiting matter but I do so on behalf of Billy Burke and lists and I am sure the Minister is always 681 Organ 6 April 2004. Transplants 682 conscious that we are talking about real people. increasing the potential number of organs This is about a real person. I am asking the available to that zone. This has been a significant Minister to tell me and Billy’s family what can be factor in increasing the number of transplants for done to save his life. Billy told me yesterday that Irish patients in recent years. There have been 42 he could not believe he could be left to die since 1999 with 12 performed in the last year because lungs can be sent to one hospital but not alone. Prior to the agreement with Newcastle, an to another. I do not see the logic in this. I do not average of three transplants per annum were know if I can have done justice to how Billy and being performed on Irish patients. It is evident, his family feel — the sense of frustration, anger therefore, that the service agreement with and helplessness despite knocking on every Newcastle has resulted in a major improvement possible door. Billy must value every day and in the level of the service available to Irish hour because he does not know how long he has patients. The objective in establishing an Irish- left. What can the Minister for Health and based programme is to increase further the access Children and his Department do? of all Irish patients to lung transplantation while, at the same time, ensuring that the clinical Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): outcomes for these patients are at least as good as I thank the Deputy for raising this issue this those obtained in established centres elsewhere. evening. The service agreement with Newcastle provides I am aware of this critical medical case and for the retrieval of donor lungs by a team from have every sympathy with Billy Burke and fully the Freeman Hospital. The donated organs are share the concern that he obtain a lung transplant managed through a central pool along with the as soon as possible. I understand that the case donated organs from the United Kingdom which the Deputy raised has been the subject of centres within the zone or region. Irish patients extensive contact between the Department, awaiting a transplant are placed on a common members of the person’s family and the patient’s waiting list for the zone along with patients from consultant at the Mater Hospital. the United Kingdom. Transplants are carried out In addition, I have been in touch with the on patients, including Irish patients, on the United Kingdom Secretary of State for Health common waiting list using available matched and have been advised that the person concerned organs from the pool regardless of their place of has been placed on the waiting list at origin. Wythenshawe Hospital in Manchester and is The decision to carry out a transplant awaiting a suitable donor. I have also been in operation is taken having regard to a number of contact with his physician in the Mater Hospital factors, including the availability and matching of on this matter. The patient was previously listed the organ donated and the clinical urgency of for transplantation at the Freeman Hospital, those waiting. Newcastle does not have exclusive Newcastle. It is clear that everything possible is rights to lungs donated in Ireland but has a first being done by all concerned to ensure that Mr. call based on suitability. Lungs not required by Burke can receive a transplant. Newcastle may be offered to other centres in the Decisions relating to the management of a United Kingdom, including Manchester. There is patient’s care are appropriate to the relevant no obstacle, therefore, to the use of lungs donated clinical personnel involved, both here in Ireland in this country by other transplant units in the and in the United Kingdom. Patient selection for United Kingdom. transplantation is a matter of clinical judgment The lung transplant unit at the Mater Hospital irrespective of whether the procedure is to be was recently opened by the Taoiseach. performed in the United Kingdom or in this International experience indicates that the rate of country at the new lung transplant unit at the lung donation in Ireland is likely to increase once Mater Hospital. the national programme is up and running. In It is important to outline the background to the particular, the proximity and interaction of the service agreement with the Freeman Hospital in retrieval and transplant teams has been shown to Newcastle. The agreement was put in place in maximise the retrieval rate. As the Irish 1999 to improve the level of access for Irish programme develops, it will be necessary for the patients requiring transplants, which at that time existing arrangements for donor lungs retrieved was considered extremely poor. Few patients in this country to be re-examined, and this will be were receiving transplants despite undergoing an issue for discussion at the next service numerous trips to various UK centres for agreement review meeting between the Eastern assessment with the associated stress and Regional Health Authority and the Freeman inconvenience to the patients and their families Hospital, which has been scheduled for 16 April. that this involved. Everything possible is being done by all Under the arrangement with Newcastle, the involved to facilitate the provision of a lung Republic of Ireland became part of a designated transplant as soon as possible for Mr. Billy Burke. zone in the UK for lung donation purposes, thus Officials of my Department, my adviser and I 683 The 6 April 2004. Adjournment 684

[Mr. Martin.] Patient selection must continue to be a matter of have had discussions with a number of people on clinical judgment, whether in Newcastle, this matter. I share the frustration of the family Manchester or the Mater Hospital. We will and I understand their anxiety to have this matter continue our efforts to secure a transplant for Mr. brought to a successful conclusion and a Burke. I appreciate the Deputy’s articulating the transplant operation carried out. issues as clearly as she has done. The agreement we entered into with Newcastle has been beneficial to a broad number of people The Da´il adjourned at 10.40 p.m. until and it has been better than the previous situation. 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 7 April 2004. 685 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 686

Written Answers. perception as a tourism destination was being impeded by the negative images being broadcast ———— around the world as a result of the conflict between the two communities. This impediment The following are questions tabled by was lifted through the peace process and the Members for written response and the ministerial Good Friday Agreement, which was concluded replies received from the Departments almost six year ago to the day. [unrevised]. While co-operation in many forms was already under way in the tourism sector, the Good Friday Questions Nos. 1 to 46, inclusive, answered Agreement gave a vital impetus to both orally. Administrations and the sector as a whole to work even closer together. A key synergy was, Questions Nos. 47 to 136, inclusive, resubmitted. and remains, the presentation of an integrated and cohesive image and message internationally Questions Nos. 137 to 143, inclusive, answered in regard to the island of Ireland as a tourism orally. destination. It was in this context that Tourism Ireland was formed as an all-island international Tourism Promotion. marketing company, with its staff, expertise and 144. Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for Arts, intellectual property drawn primarily from the Sport and Tourism his views on the workings of two tourist boards. the institutions created to promote tourism under Tourism Ireland’s mandate is to grow overseas the Good Friday Agreement; the benefits that tourism business to the island of Ireland and have accrued to arts and tourism under these support Northern Ireland to realise its tourism institutions; and if he will make a statement on potential. In that context, it is responsible for the matter. [10639/04] overseas destination marketing of the island of Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Ireland. In delivering on this mandate, it works O’Donoghue): The development of tourism on an very closely with Fa´ilte Ireland, the Northern all-island basis is one of the great success stories Ireland Tourist Board and the tourism industry of the northern peace process, particularly the on the island and overseas. In its first two years contribution it has made to the enviable in existence, Tourism Ireland has succeeded in performance of the tourism sector on the island becoming a serious player in a very competitive of Ireland relative to our international international marketplace. competitors. North-South co-operation on tourism matters Yesterday evening a very successful now operates at many levels. At policy level, international event took place in Belfast to myself and my northern counterpart oversee and showcase all-island tourism. Over 30 approve objectives, strategy and resources for international policy-makers from over 25 Tourism Ireland. This co-operation cascades countries participated at the event, which was through both public sectors through the active part of our centrepiece Presidency Conference on liaison and co-operation of both sponsor Tourism, which took place in Dublin. The Departments on a range of issues and through the reaction from this international audience was co-operation and liaison of the three bodies — extremely positive and confirmed my own belief Tourism Ireland, Fa´ilte Ireland and Northern as to the merits of this ambitious initiative. Ireland Tourist Board. This co-operation is Tourism is a cornerstone of economic growth, mirrored in the private sector, at one level employment generation and regional through the industry representation on the board development on the island of Ireland. In the of Tourism Ireland but also through the close South, the sector is now a \5 billion industry working relationship of the Irish Tourist Industry providing 12% of employment and representing Confederation and the Northern Ireland Tourist 4.4% of GNP. Over the same period, visitor Industry Confederation. numbers to Ireland grew by an average of 7% Despite the unfavourable market conditions compared to a world average of 4% up to 2000. for tourism internationally over recent years, While this trend stalled somewhat over the past overseas tourism to the island of Ireland has three years, the most recent figures for 2003 show performed remarkably well, increasing by 2.4% positive signs of recovery with a return to 5% in 2002 and by an estimated 5% in 2003 to an growth in overseas visitor numbers. estimated 7.4 million overseas visits. The year For Northern Ireland, the story has been 2003 proved to be a particularly good one for similar in many ways, particularly in terms of its Northern Ireland with visitor numbers estimated appeal as a tourism destination and the significant to have increased by in excess of 11%. investment from public and private sources in the The development of a cohesive and well- development of a quality tourism product. It is targeted message in regard to the appeal of the also evident, however, that its international island of Ireland as a quality tourist destination 687 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 688

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] The two broadcasters who were responsible for has been a key factor in delivering this the organisation of this concert made a joint performance. In the design and roll-out of their application to Dublin City Council for a licence marketing programmes, further opportunities for to hold the concert in O’Connell Street. co-operation and cohesive action are emerging However, recently it became apparent to the which can optimise the clear synergies which exist broadcasters that there would be serious between the various stakeholders in this vital difficulties surrounding the traffic restrictions that sector of both the Northern Ireland and would have to be imposed to allow the stage to southern economies. be built in O’Connell Street in time to allow full A particular challenge in the immediate future safety and sound checks, rehearsals, etc., to take will be to bed down the new structures and place. Dublin City Council was not in a position ensure clarity of focus and responsibility for each to facilitate the broadcasters in this context, given of the bodies concerned. Regardless of the that partial road restrictions would have been political context for such co-operation, in the required for up to nine days in advance of the final analysis, this project will stand or fall on the event. basis of its capacity to deliver dividends to its I understand that the broadcasters were also stakeholders, particularly the tourism industry, in advised of other restrictions that would have been both jurisdictions. imposed. These disruptions could have serious On that score, Tourism Ireland has proven a impact on travel and trade over the bank holiday real and tangible success to date and I am weekend. Accordingly, the two broadcasters confident that, working with the industry and the decided that, taking account of all the tourist boards, it will go from strength to strength. circumstances applying, it is not feasible to proceed with the event in Dublin. I appreciate the Question No. 145 answered with Question reasons it was not possible to proceed. No. 142. The staging of an alternative television event on 1 May is a matter for RTE. However, the Concert Cancellation. series of events being organised by my 146. Mr. Gogarty asked the Minister for Arts, Department around the country to celebrate the Sport and Tourism the reason for the cancellation accession of the ten new member states will go of a major concert on 1 May 2004 to celebrate the ahead as planned. These include “Vectorial enlargement of the European Union; and if he Elevations,” one of the most unique and the will make a statement on the matter. [10609/04] world’s largest on-line artworks, a fireworks extravaganza, a European fair in Merrion Square 147. Mr. Boyle asked the Minister for Arts, and the national “Day of Welcomes” involving Sport and Tourism the alternative celebration ten Irish towns and cities each of which will which is being put in place for 1 May 2004 specially welcome a particular accession state. following the cancellation of the major concert; and if he will make a statement on the matter. National Concert Hall. [10606/04] 148. Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for 169. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Arts, Arts, Sport and Tourism if the authorities of Sport and Tourism the reason the proposed UCD have been approached regarding the Beautiful Night concert involving Irish and provision of additional space to extend the international musicians, which was to be held in National Concert Hall at Earlsfort Terrace; and O’Connell Street, Dublin, on 1 May 2004, has if he will make a statement on the matter. been cancelled; the alternative being planned; [10624/04] and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10643/04] Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): I refer the Deputy to my reply to Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Question No. 121 of 25 February 2004. O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. 146, 147 and 169 together. Film Industry Development. RTE, in partnership with the BBC, has been 149. Mr. Stanton asked the Minister for Arts, working on the broadcasting project entitled “A Sport and Tourism the support available for and Beautiful Night” for many months. This event his views on the state of the Irish film industry; was designed to be “one concert with two stages”, and if he will make a statement on the matter. with public performances outside City Hall in [10622/04] Belfast and on O’Connell Street in Dublin. It was RTE’s intention that the concert would be Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. broadcast live from Belfast and Dublin and made O’Donoghue): There is no doubting the available through the EBU network to economic importance of film, of the fact that film broadcasters and their audiences throughout the employs many people, and attracts inward enlarged European Union. investment in the form of international 689 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 690 production finance. All of these things are very candidates were also asked to put forward, important and bring great benefits. Additionally, following which the next stage of the process will from my perspective as Minister with be initiated. While it is anticipated that a final responsibility for the arts, film is much more than decision from Government will be secured in the that. The primary motivation for our support of autumn, I cannot at this stage be any more film is that film is worth having as part of our precise as to the expected timeframe. culture, as a unique medium for the expression of Subject to the acceptability of proposals, the our Irish perspective, for its own sake. national conference centre could, as envisaged in The Irish Film Board, funded by my the expressions of interest Notice, be constructed Department but independent of it, is responsible before the end of 2007. on a day-to-day basis for promoting the Irish film 151. Mr. Gogarty asked the Minister for Arts, sector. The board operates a multilayered Sport and Tourism , further to Question No. 112 approach, often giving film makers and script of 25 February 2004, the evidence which exists to writers their first access to the business, but also show that the scale of investment in a swimming seeking to advance and assist the work of more pool project is not sufficiently large to support a established professionals. formal public private partnership; and the other Among the board’s objectives going forward options available to local authorities wishing to are: to strengthen project development and develop swimming pool projects, partially funded production, both artistic and commercial; to from the local authority swimming pool develop dynamic and financially strong programme. [10602/04] production companies; to raise and enhance the profile of the Irish film industry, both nationally Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. and internationally; and to position the O’Donoghue): As I indicated in my response of indigenous industry at the forefront of new 25 February 2004, reference 6106/04, an technologies. I am glad I was able to secure an expenditure review of the local authority increase in funding for the board of over 9% for swimming pool programme, LASPP, is currently 2004, which will make a real difference to the its under way and is due to be completed by the capacity to serve and assist the industry. middle of this year. The position in regard to The other major strand of State support for private sector involvement in the programme is film is through the section 481 scheme for being considered in the context of that review. investment in film production. This relief has now As part of the review process, the work of the been extended to 2008, with the amount that may interdepartmental working group, which was set be raised increasing to \15 million from 2005 and up in 1999 to advise on the key issues in regard is particularly important for our capacity to to the operation of a public private partnership, attract international productions to Ireland, and PPP, approach in regard to swimming pools, will these productions, particularly the bigger be taken into account. The experience of local productions, bring real economic benefits to authorities, national legislative and policy Ireland, as well as giving our personnel the developments in the area of PPPs will also be chance to develop their skills and their careers. pertinent. At the moment, the various arrangements and National Conference Centre. accompanying guidelines in place for PPPs are 150. Ms McManus asked the Minister for Arts, geared towards major and complex capital Sport and Tourism the position with regard to the projects with significant ongoing maintenance provision of a national conference centre; when, requirements, that is, projects having a capital \ in the autumn, he expects the Government to be cost of 20 million or more and the advice is that in a position to secure a final decision; and if he the PPP model should only be used where it is will make a statement on the matter. [10637/04] appropriate and where it can deliver value for money. Conversely, it would not be appropriate Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. where the transaction costs of pursuing a PPP are O’Donoghue): The Office of Public Works disproportionate to the value of the project. The received four submissions for the provision of a policy framework for PPPs in the local national conference centre following its government sector issued by the Department of advertisement for expressions of interest on 11 the Environment, Heritage and Local November 2003. Government in November last and implementing Those submissions are currently undergoing guidelines from the Department of Finance are detailed evaluation by an assessment panel detailed and complex in implementation terms. representative of my Department, the Office of The scale of project costs in the LASPP are in Public Works and its advisers, the Department of the region of \8 million and would not be seen, Finance, Fa´ilte Ireland and the National therefore, as being of sufficiently high cost to Development Finance Agency. A separate panel justify the extra resources involved in pursuing a will subsequently evaluate the site proposals that formal PPP approach. The Department of 691 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 692

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] November and 1 December 2003. The closing Finance confirmed some time ago that there were date for receipt of applications was 16 January several considerations which would militate 2004. A total of 1,304 applications were received against a PPP approach in this programme and before the closing date. The number of that pool projects do not strictly comply with the applications on a county basis were as follows: definition of a viable PPP in terms of scale and optimal transfer of risk to the private sector. County Number of It is important to bear in mind that the LASPP applications is merely a grant scheme and it is a matter for local authorities to devise funding and Carlow 16 operational arrangements as they see fit to Cavan 25 complement the grant element. Experience shows Clare 25 that there is potential for private sector Cork 128 involvement in the provision and operation of Donegal 62 local authority swimming pool facilities and many Dublin 252 local authorities are exploring various ways of Galway 73 involving the private sector in their projects. Kerry 90 From my Department’s perspective, there is no Kildare 44 objection to the involvement of the private sector Kilkenny 25 provided the generally accepted operational Laois 25 considerations of a public pool form part of the Leitrim 27 project. These considerations would involve, for Limerick 45 example, non-membership “pay per swim” Longford 29 access, concessionary rates as part of social Louth 37 inclusion measures, etc. Mayo 50 Following the completion of the expenditure Meath 32 review to which I referred, the possibility of a Monaghan 26 stronger private sector involvement in the Offaly 29 provision and operation of swimming pools will Roscommon 35 become clearer. Sligo 30 Tipperary 54 Sports Capital Programme. Waterford 41 152. Mr. Sargent asked the Minister for Arts, Westmeath 30 Sport and Tourism when the allocation of funding Wexford 41 under the sports capital programme 2004 will be Wicklow 33 announced; the budget which will be available; and if contingency plans have been put in place These applications are currently being evaluated to notify sporting organisations should the postal against the programme’s assessment criteria, dispute continue. [10615/04] which are outlined in the guidelines, terms and 162. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for conditions of the programme which accompanied Arts, Sport and Tourism when allocations will be the application form. made under the sports capital programme 2004; The level of provisional grant allocations to be and the basis on which such allocations will be made under the 2004 programme will be decided made. [10569/04] having regard to the quality of the applications received this year and the pattern of grant 171. Mr. Quinn asked the Minister for Arts, allocations and drawdowns on foot of earlier Sport and Tourism when he will announce the years’ approvals. I will then announce the grant capital sports grants 2004; the number of allocations for the 2004 programme as soon as applications received per county; and if he will possible after the assessment process has been make a statement on the matter. [10641/04] completed. The announcement of the amounts of the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. provisional allocations were made in previous O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. years through the media and on the Department’s 152, 162 and 171 together. website and I intend to pursue this course again The national lottery-funded sports capital this year. In addition, the provisional grantees programme, which is administered by my must be informed as soon as possible of my Department, allocates funding to sporting and Department’s requirements in proceeding to community organisations at local, regional and draw down their funding while unsuccessful national level throughout the country. The applicants must be informed of the reasons for programme is advertised on an annual basis. not being successful on this occasion. In previous The 2004 sports capital programme was years this was done by letter and it is hoped to advertised in the national newspapers on 30 do so again this year. 693 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 694

In the event of the usual means of being dealt with under the programme. Of these communicating the results of this year’s applications, 17 are for new pools in greenfield programme being affected by a continuation of sites, 24 for replacement pools and 14 for the the current postal dispute, my Department will refurbishment of existing pools. consider alternative means of such Under the programme, there are four principal communication, such as telephone and fax and stages in a swimming pool project, feasibility electronic means such as email and my study/preliminary report, contract documents, Department’s website. tender and construction. Local authorities may not proceed to the next stage of a project until Safety of Tourists. prior approval issues from my Department. 153. Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Arts, Due to the long lead-time associated with such Sport and Tourism his views on the number of projects, it can take some time for projects to attacks on tourists, as reported in the national proceed through the various stages of media recently; and if he will make a statement development. Of the 55 projects, 13 swimming on the matter. [10633/04] pool projects have been opened or have completed construction work. These are in Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Arklow, Courtown/Gorey, Dundalk, Ennis, O’Donoghue): I am aware that, as reported Enniscorthy, Monaghan, Navan, Wicklow, recently at the launch of its 2003 annual report, Roscommon, Aquadome Tralee, Ballinasloe, the Tourist Victim Support Service dealt with a Finglas in Dublin and Grove Island in Limerick. total of 357 cases of crimes against tourists last Five projects are at construction phase — the year. This was an increase of 4% on the 344 cases Regional Sports and Leisure Centre in Tralee, reported for the previous year. I understand that Clonmel, Tuam, Churchfield in Cork city and the majority of the cases, 188, were in regard to Ballymun in Dublin. In addition, 37 other theft but, regretfully, some 22 cases involved applications are at various stages in the process, violence against tourists. four are at tender stage, 18 are at contract I deplore any increase in the level of crime document stage and 15 are at preliminary report against tourists, in particular as they are a stage. vulnerable group away from their home country and without a network of family and friends to National Stadium. support them. For this reason, I applaud the work of the Tourist Victim Support Service and I am 155. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, encouraged by the support and close co- Sport and Tourism the discussions he has had operation that the service continues to receive with the various sporting organisations following from the Garda Sı´ocha´na. the decision on the national stadium; if he has I would like to acknowledge also the role the had further negotiations with particular reference service plays in terms of providing top quality to Abbotstown or other locations; and if he will safety information guides for tourists and was make a statement on the matter. [10571/04] pleased to be associated with its launch last year. 273. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, I wish the service every success in this its tenth Sport and Tourism the discussions he has had anniversary year. I would urge the tourism sector, with the various sporting bodies with a view to and wider commercial interests that benefit from ensuring the provision of adequate stadium space tourism, to fully support the service in its very to meet the needs of all sporting bodies in the important work both with tourists in crisis and in future; and if he will make a statement on the safety awareness. matter. [10907/04] While any level of crime is unacceptable, it is important to have a sense of perspective. In a Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. survey carried out last year, of cities in 215 O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. countries, Ireland proved to be one of the safest 155 and 273 together. destinations for tourists and Dublin was found to The Government decided at its meeting on 27 be the 18th safest city in the world. January 2004 to approve the provision of substantial funding towards the IRFU/FAI Swimming Pool Projects. proposals to redevelop Lansdowne Road stadium as a 50,000 seat state-of-the-art stadium. This 154. Ms Lynch asked the Minister for Arts, proposal was brought to the Government Sport and Tourism the number of applications following consideration of a joint proposal by the received in relation to the provision of new IRFU and the FAI to meet the stadium swimming pools and for the refurbishment of infrastructure deficit for the playing of soccer and existing pools; and if he will make a statement on rugby matches. On the same day I met the matter. [10642/04] representatives of the IRFU, the FAI and the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. GAA to convey the Government’s decision. The O’Donoghue): The closing date for receipt of project to redevelop Lansdowne Road stadium is applications under the current round of the local proceeding and no further discussions regarding authority swimming pool programme was 31 July other stadium sites are proposed. I am pleased to 2000 and since then 55 applications have or are advise the Deputy that the Government has also 695 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 696

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] With regard to our performance in the North decided to proceed with the development of a American market, Ireland achieved an impressive sports campus at Abbotstown. growth rate of 6.5%, last year. During a very turbulent period for tourism internationally, Abbey Theatre. Ireland has managed to out-perform many of its competitors in the US, due in large part to the 156. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Arts, concerted and co-ordinated efforts of Tourism Sport and Tourism the position regarding the Ireland and the tourism industry there. Access redevelopment of the Abbey Theatre; and if he developments have also been a key driver of this will make a statement on the matter. [10638/04] strong performance. While there remains scope Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. for further growth, 2003 marked a turning point O’Donoghue): On foot of Government decisions in this market which Tourism Ireland and the of 19 February 2002 and 29 January 2003 the industry are set to build on in 2004. Office of Public Works has carried out a In regard to the European market, Ireland preliminary assessment of the property continues to perform very well. In recognising the acquisition issues arising in the context of potential for growth in visitor numbers, Europe redeveloping the national theatre at its existing has been targeted for continued growth. In that location via a public private partnership, PPP. context, Tourism Ireland has reviewed and This assessment indicates that the acquisition continues to review its operations in the key of property which would be essential for continental European countries in which it redevelopment at the existing location could be operates. Already we are seeing the benefits of very costly and time-consuming. Redevelopment this review, especially from Germany, where the recent sluggish outbound market has been turned at the existing location would thus appear to be around by a concentrated consumer focused problematic. campaign there by Tourism Ireland. I am considering, in light of this, how this Southern Europe, including France, Spain and development should progress, in view of the Italy, also performed exceptionally well in 2003. Government’s commitment to provide a new What is also encouraging is that our prospects of home for the national theatre, and of the critical further above average growth from Europe are importance of this development to national good because of new access developments and cultural life. Tourism Ireland will continue to encourage and support the further development of such routes. Tourism Promotion. Long haul markets have also been targeted by 157. Dr. Upton asked the Minister for Arts, an intensive level of marketing activity by Sport and Tourism his views on whether the Tourism Ireland. Like many other European domestic tourism industry is over-reliant on destinations, these markets were seriously visitors from Britain in view of recent statistics affected by the recent external shocks to released by the Central Statistics Office; his international travel. This was particularly evident further views on the weak growth in the number in the dramatic reduction in air access capacity to of visitors from Canada and the United States Europe from Australia, which is the most and other areas; his plans to promote Ireland as important long haul market for Ireland. Early a tourist destination outside Britain and Europe; indications in 2004 indicate a resurgence in and if he will make a statement on the matter. demand for travel to Europe with Ireland again [10647/04] out-performing the competition. Looking ahead, the marketing programmes in 270. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, train for 2004 will build on the momentum Sport and Tourism his expectations for the generated in 2003. With a comprehensive and tourism industry in 2004; and if he will make a highly targeted suite of marketing activities, statement on the matter. [10883/04] Tourism Ireland and Fa´ilte Ireland are confident that they can meet the very ambitious target of Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. 4% growth in visitor numbers. O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. 157 and 270 together. Tourism Industry. Great Britain remains a key market for Irish tourism and is of critical importance to all regions 158. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Arts, of Ireland and all sectors of the industry. This is Sport and Tourism the plans he has to review the expected to remain the position in the years quality standards in tourism; and if he will make ahead. Tourism Ireland is targeting further a statement on the matter. [10442/04] growth in various sectors of the British market, Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. which should help to further the spread of O’Donoghue): Responsibility for conducting a tourism business throughout the country. review of quality standards in tourism rests with Ireland’s performance in this market has been the tourism State agencies. impressive. Last year Ireland welcomed over 3.5 Since taking up office, I have consistently million visitors from Great Britain to our shores emphasised that the quality and levels of service and these visitors spent almost \1.3 billion here. offered by the tourism industry is critical to the 697 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 698 successful development of the sector. Excellence assist in driving forward and monitoring the in the physical design and quality of tourism action plan set out in the report of the review products and good investment planning must be group. The group had its first meeting in matched with equally good operational planning February and I expect its first six-monthly report and delivery of services. If operational standards in August. do not match the physical quality of facilities, the market potential of these facilities, for both Question No. 160 answered with Question overseas and domestic tourists may not be fully No. 142. realised. Last May I established the new National International Arts Policy. Tourism Development Authority, Fa´ilte Ireland. 161. Ms O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Arts, This is a well-resourced body which has been Sport and Tourism if, in view of his statutory assigned responsibility for the promotion of responsibility for promoting the arts within and excellence in product and service delivery which without the State, he is considering the are priority requirements for both the overseas establishment of Irish cultural institutes abroad, and domestic tourist. It has a clear mandate to along the lines of the British Council, the Goethe- take whatever actions are appropriate to help the Institut or the Alliance Francaise; his views on industry to hold and increase its market share in whether the absence of such Irish institutions an increasingly competitive global marketplace. prevents the promotion of cultural relations Fa´ilte Ireland is now up and running and is well abroad; and if he will make a statement on the positioned to support the industry in addressing matter. [10651/04] the new set of challenges facing tourism into the future, including issues such as value for money, Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. competitiveness and quality standards. O’Donoghue): It is my intention during 2004 to advance the formulation of a coherent policy on 159. Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin asked the the international arts. Towards this end, my Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if his Department has commissioned a consultant to attention has been drawn to recent comments by consider the issues arising and to make the newly-elected president of the Irish Hotels recommendations on how best to progress, and Federation that the Government will have to step his report is expected shortly. up its efforts to try and keep costs down to ensure At this point in time, I have formed no firm Ireland remains a popular tourist destination; and view of the sort of structures referred to by the if he will make a statement on the matter. Deputy, but all viable options will be considered, [10650/04] with the objective of choosing options that work 271. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, well, give good value for money, and involve Sport and Tourism if he has satisfied himself acceptable cost in the context of competing regarding the competitiveness of the tourist demands at the relevant time. industry here; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10884/04] Question No. 162 answered with Question No. 152. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. Tourism Policy. 159 and 271 together. 163. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for Arts, I am aware of the comments made by the Sport and Tourism when the first report of the president of the Irish Hotels Federation. I have implementation committee established to put into already made my views on competitiveness very effect the recommendations of the Tourism clear. I agree with the Tourism Policy Review Policy Review Group will be published; and if he Group that restoring competitiveness is the major will make a statement on the matter. [10623/04] challenge facing the tourism sector and that the industry must offer better value to its customers Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. if it is to maximise the opportunities for future O’Donoghue): In line with the terms of reference growth. However, there is no immediate, single for the high level group I appointed to advise on, or easy solution to addressing concerns. The and drive forward, the implementation of the review group listed some ten specific actions in tourism action plan, the group will report to me this area that require responses from the private every six months. and public sectors including recommendations on The first meeting of the group was in February taking responsibility for restoring 2004 and I look forward to receiving its first competitiveness, inflation, benchmarking, report in August. customer relationship management, management Arts Council. capability, high standards for competitive advantage and training. 164. Mr. M. Higgins asked the Minister for My aim is to see a coherent action plan Arts, Sport and Tourism his views on the recent implemented effectively in co-operation with all resignation of the director of the Arts Council; the major players. To this end, I have established his further views on whether this decision was a high level implementation group to advise and based on the council’s decision to set aside the 699 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 700

[Mr. M. Higgins.] festival of over 50 events spanning five months arts plan 2002-2006; the future for the Arts Plan has resulted, that is being promoted under the 2002-2006 in view of this development; and if he title of “ReJoyce — Dublin 2004”. It is being will make a statement on the matter. [10654/04] marketed worldwide as a major cultural tourism festival and has already received significant Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. interest and extensive coverage in the national O’Donoghue): I refer the Deputy to my answer and foreign media. to Priority Question No. 140 today. Plans are well advanced for the Bloomsday breakfast, which will take place on O’Connell Question Nos. 165 answered with Question Street on the morning of Sunday 13 June, subject No. 142. to the issuing of an event licence by the relevant authority. Over the course of the morning it is Swimming Pool Projects. expected that of the order of 10,000 people will 166. Mr. Stanton asked the Minister for Arts, have the opportunity to enjoy a cooked breakfast Sport and Tourism the funding available for the supplied by Denny’s, the event sponsor, in next round of the local authority swimming pool addition to other attractions along the city’s programme; when he will announce successful main thoroughfare. applicants for same; and if he will make a The full event calendar of the festival is statement on the matter. [10621/04] available at the dedicated website for the festival — www.rejoycedublin2004.com. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): As I indicated to the Deputy in Commissioning of Artwork. my reply of 30 March last, the closing date for receipt of applications under the current round of 168. Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for the local authority swimming pool programme Arts, Sport and Tourism if the guidelines on best was 31 July 2000 and 55 proposals have or are practice for commissioning artwork for all public being dealt with under the programme. bodies was published, as promised, by the end of Due to the large number of pools still being 2003; and if so, the feedback there has been processed and taking into account the funding regarding the implications of same. [10613/04] which has been set aside for the programme, it is Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. not proposed to reopen the pool programme at O’Donoghue): An interdepartmental committee present. However, an expenditure review which has now agreed the content of guidelines in this is due to be completed by mid-2004 is being context. Necessary consultations with experts in carried out on the programme and this review is the area on the agreed text were concluded examining, among other things, how the recently, and publication will be arranged as soon programme has worked to date, the benefits as possible. which have accrued to the areas where pools have been built and what amendments, if any, are Question No. 169 answered with Question required to ensure the effective and efficient No. 146. delivery of the programme. The question of reopening the programme can be considered National Stadium. following the completion of that review. The provision in my Department’s Estimates for the 170. Ms Burton asked the Minister for Arts, programme for this year is \15 million. Sport and Tourism the position in regard to developing state of the art sports facilities at the Bloomsday Centenary Celebrations. Abbotstown site in view of the recent decision to locate the national stadium at Lansdowne Road; 167. Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Arts, the latest meetings the Minister has had with Sport and Tourism the plans being made to sporting bodies regarding the use of future commemorate Bloomsday on 13 June 2004, in facilities at Abbotstown; and if he will make a view of the fact that it is the 100th anniversary; statement on the matter. [10636/04] the plans for the special Bloomsday breakfast that will take place on O’Connell Street, Dublin; 268. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, the efforts being made to promote Bloomsday as Sport and Tourism the position in regard to the an important day; and if he will make a statement future of lands at Abbotstown; and if he will on the matter. [10653/04] make a statement on the matter. [10881/04] Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): Last year I established the O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. Bloomsday Centenary Co-ordinating Committee, 170 and 268 together. whose remit is to co-ordinate the appropriate The Government has agreed to proceed with plans of the many literary and cultural the development of a sporting campus at organisations that intend to arrange special Abbotstown. Following the decision by the Bloomsday centenary events, and thereby Government on 27 January last, I met the board achieve a major festive celebration of the of Campus and Stadium Ireland Development centenary of this fictitious day in literature. A Limited, on 2 February. I outlined the 701 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 702

Government’s views for the sports campus to Partnership Agreements. them and asked them to provide me with a 173. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Taoiseach when phased and prioritised proposal, with a sporting he plans to initiate discussions with the social and business case and annual budgets in respect partners in relation to a successor to Sustaining of each element of the campus. I indicated that Progress; and his objectives for the the delivery of the component elements of the negotiations. [9065/04] campus should be put forward within a realistic timeframe by building on and updating the The Taoiseach: The Sustaining Progress existing framework plan for the site, in agreement covers the period up to the end of consultation with the various interested parties 2005. The review of the interim pay terms and taking account of developments which have contained in the agreement was formally initiated taken place in the meantime. on Monday, 29 March 2004. While the precise elements of the campus will This meeting was attended by representatives emanate from revisiting the existing framework of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Irish plan and from the consultative process which has Business and Employers Confederation and the already commenced, it is likely that the campus Construction Industry Federation and relevant will include pitches and training facilities, Government Departments, including own administrative facilities for the smaller sporting Department. bodies which depend very largely on voluntary The overall objective of this process, from the commitment. It might also include medical and Government’s point of view, is to ensure a pro- training support for elite athlete development competitiveness and pro-jobs outcome, while at and, eventually, an indoor sporting arena, which the same time, ensuring industrial relations it is expected would attract private sector stability. investment. CSID has been given the responsibility for Insurance Industry. translating this concept into an action plan for 174. Mr. O’Connor asked the Ta´naiste and delivery and overseeing a programme of Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment development that, over time, will be seen as the actions she is taking to deal with the issue of accomplishing a major transformation in the high insurance costs for young drivers; the quality of Ireland’s sporting infrastructure. As I position regarding same; and if she will make a indicated, the process of consultation with the statement on the matter. [10530/04] various interested parties, in particular the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade national governing bodies of sport, has and Employment (Ms Harney): I am very commenced and I expect to receive the outline concerned about the difficulties that are being proposals for the campus from CSID by the caused by high insurance premiums, especially in autumn. regard to young drivers. The insurance reform programme that I Question No. 171 answered with Question announced on 25 October 2002 comprises a No. 152. comprehensive set of interrelated measures designed to improve the functioning of the Irish Northern Ireland Issues. insurance market. I chair a ministerial committee 172. Mr. F. McGrath asked the Taoiseach the established to drive the co-ordinated position regarding the Northern Ireland talks. implementation of the reform programme across [10444/04] the relevant Departments and other bodies concerned. Substantial progress is being made on The Taoiseach: I met Prime Minister Blair in a range of measures that will radically overhaul Farmleigh on Thursday, 11 March. We discussed the functioning of the insurance market and help the review and we recognised the importance of tackle the high cost of insurance. The key injecting momentum into the review process. For measures include implementation of the that reason, we met in trilateral format with each recommendations in the Motor Insurance of the parties in Hillsborough on Tuesday, 23 Advisory Board action plan within a target March. timeframe. To date 32 of the recommendations At those meetings, we explored with the have been fully implemented, four partially parties how we could achieve fully inclusive, fully implemented and work is in progress on the functioning, devolved government. There needs implementation of the other recommendations. to be a clear and definitive end to paramilitarism Another key measure is the establishment of the and there needs to be clarity that unionism will Personal Injuries Assessment Board. The participate fully in an inclusive process if Personal Injuries Assessment Board Act 2003 paramilitarism is brought to a definitive end. As completed its passage through the Houses of the I have said, remedying the deficits of trust and Oireachtas on 19 December 2003 and was signed confidence that now exist requires a fast- into law on 28 December 2003. The provisions of forwarding to completion. If we can achieve this, this Act will be commenced in the near future. A we can achieve a successful outcome to the CEO designate has been appointed and review. commenced duty on 2 February 2004. The 703 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 704

[Ms Harney.] Further, the CSO noted a significant contribution proposed structure and staffing levels of the new from insurance to the recent reduction in body are finalised and a recruitment campaign is inflation. As implementation of the reform currently under way. The board will be programme continues, I expect further reductions operational when the necessary staff and IT to occur in all forms of insurance. I am also systems are in place, which is expected to be in confident that the measures the Government is the second quarter of this year. The PIAB interim putting in place to reform the Irish insurance board has made significant progress in this market will attract new players into the market regard. Another key measure is the undertaking leading to further downward pressure on premia. by my Department and the Competition Authority of a joint study into the insurance Enterprise Funding. market. The study will identify and analyse 175. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Ta´naiste and barriers to entry and limitations on rivalry in the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment insurance marketplace. The bulk of the study was the schemes of financial support which are completed in 2003 and a preliminary report and available to start-up businesses that wish to consultation document on competition issues in expand employment in the area of domestic the non-life insurance market was published on marketable services such as heating and 18 February 2004. Following a two-month plumbing; and if she will make a statement on the consultation period, a final report will be matter. [10549/04] published which will contain recommendations based on its findings. Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade Significant progress has been made by the and Employment (Ms Harney): In so far as the Department of Transport in regard to the programmes offered by agencies under the aegis implementation of the road safety strategy. The of my Department are concerned, funding is Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform available from the county enterprise boards for published the Civil Liability and Courts Bill on micro-enterprises, that is, firms employing up to 11 February. This Bill contains measures to ten persons. The funding is targeted primarily at streamline the law in regard to personal injury manufacturing and internationally traded claims including measures to deal with fraudulent services. Funding would not normally be and exaggerated claims. The Bill was initiated in available towards the costs of setting up a the Seanad on 11 February. It has completed business in the area of domestic marketable Second Stage in the Seanad and is currently services such as heating and plumbing. awaiting Committee Stage. Nevertheless, the relevant county enterprise The MIAB recommendations that the Irish board may be in a position to provide some Financial Services Regulatory Authority, IFSRA, business advice and management development support programmes to a person setting up such a is charged with progressingdealingwith issues business. These programmes are designed to help relating to public information, promotion of new and existing enterprises to operate competition, transparency and consumer effectively and efficiently to ensure survival and protection. One such recommendation relates to growth. gathering of statistics on motor insurance and claims costs by IFSRA. On 10 December 2003, National Minimum Wage. IFSRA published its first set of comparative tables of motor insurance quotations on its 176. Mr. Broughan asked the Ta´naiste and website, www.ifsra.ie. The motor insurance cost Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment survey is based on eight driver profiles and is her views on complaints from Irish entrepreneurs designed to show the range of quotes available that they are being undercut in tendering for specific drivers in Ireland. Regular surveys competitions by non-EU companies in which will be published on the IFSRA website at three labour is provided by workforces from the home monthly intervals. This may be of particular countries of those companies at well below interest to young drivers and demonstrates the market costs here; and if Irish minimum wages advantages of shopping around. also apply to such workers. [10565/04] While EU law prohibits the imposition of price Minister of State at the Department of control on insurance I have made it clear that I Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): consider there to be an onus on the insurance I understand the Deputy has a specific situation industry to ensure that the reforms to be in mind and if he can supply details my undertaken will have the effect of significantly Department will be happy to consider if work reducing the cost of premia to consumers and permits have been issued in this case and if the businesses. Indications to date are that the reform employer has complied with the terms of such programme is having its desired effect. The CSO permits. publishes monthly indices of costs for a number On a broader level, I can confirm that, where of classes of insurance. These statistics show that work permits are issued, the employer in question there was a reduction of 11.8 index points, must comply with the relevant industry 11.1%, in motor car insurance between the agreements, including the pay dimension. There months of January 2003 and January 2004. can be a difference between such agreements, or 705 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 706 recommended pay levels, and those operating in investigations or cases in the interest of the market at any given time, which may be preserving the integrity of its investigations or higher. any subsequent legal proceedings. All employees in the State are protected by I understand, however, that while criminal Irish employment law including minimum pay proceedings on indictment were not proceeded and if the Deputy has information of non- with in the case in question, civil proceedings by compliance, my Department is prepared to the authority are still pending and, therefore, it investigate. The Department has had a number of would be inappropriate for me to comment allegations of unfair practice from disappointed further at this stage. contractors in recent years but there has been a clear difficulty in supplying specific information 180. Mr. Hogan asked the Ta´naiste and to support such allegations. Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if the Competition Authority should provide the Work Permits. public with details of compromises or arrangements reached by the authority with a 177. Mr. Naughten asked the Ta´naiste and vested interest relating to potential proceedings Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment or a prosecution; and if she will make a statement the criteria for a US citizen to gain employment on the matter. [10676/04] here whose partner is an Irish citizen; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [10567/04] Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade Minister of State at the Department of and Employment (Ms Harney): The conduct of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): investigations and any subsequent legal US citizens require a work permit before proceedings under competition law is an commencing work in Ireland and it is the operational matter for the Competition proposed employer in this country who can apply Authority. for the work permit. Where the US citizen is I am aware, however, that where the married to an Irish national, a work permit is not Competition Authority reaches agreements or required once permission to remain in Ireland has settlements with parties it generally publishes been granted by the immigration authorities. details of those agreements either by way of an enforcement decision, a press release or in its 178. Mr. Durkan asked the Ta´naiste and annual report. With regard to the former, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment authority launched its enforcement decision when a work permit will issue in the case of a person (details supplied) in County Kildare, a series in 2003 to inform the public about parent of whom is also resident and employed in competition issues by publishing details of County Kildare since 2002; and if she will make decisions concerning selected investigations a statement on the matter. [10574/04] where it had closed a file either because it had found no breach of competition law or had settled Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade the case. In this regard the authority selects and Employment (Ms Harney): I am informed investigations that create a precedent, are of that there is no record of a valid work permit public interest or raise issues of complexity. application in this case. Work permit I understand that in cases where the authority applications, which are incorrect or incomplete, initiates civil proceedings but subsequently settles are not regarded as valid applications and are them, it is the authority’s practice to have the returned to the employer for completion. terms of those settlements recorded in court. In that regard I refer to the Competition Authority’s Competition Authority Investigation. recently published annual report for 2003 in which it gives details of various civil cases that 179. Mr. Hogan asked the Ta´naiste and were settled in 2003. Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if the failure of the Competition Authority to Company Property Sales. bring a prosecution relating to an alleged cartel of wholesale suppliers of packaged beer and soft 181. Mr. Hogan asked the Ta´naiste and drinks was attributable to delay within the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment Competition Authority in which files on the the reason the expected announcement of the matter lay dormant for well over a year; and if tender for Comerama, Castlecomer, County she will make a statement on the matter. Kilkenny, has been delayed; and if she will make [10675/04] a statement on the matter. [10682/04] Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Ms Harney): Decisions to and Employment (Ms Harney): The sale of the prosecute offences on indictment under Comerama facility in Castlecomer, County competition law are a matter for the Director of Kilkenny, is a private matter and is the sole Public Prosecutions. responsibility of the receiver. I have no The Competition Authority has advised me involvement in the tender process itself. that it is its policy not to comment on active However, I understand an announcement in 707 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 708

[Ms Harney.] expressed at the implication for the safety of relation to the outcome of the tender process is workers of the importation of significant amounts likely to be made shortly. of enriched ammonium nitrate blends of fertilisers from outside the EU; if she has satisfied Employment Legislation. herself that all appropriate safety procedures are in place and that labelling requirements are being 182. Ms Shortall asked the Ta´naiste and complied with, especially in view of concerns that Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment have been expressed that such materials could, in her plans, in view of the case of a company certain circumstances, explode; if she has further (details supplied) in Dublin, to review the satisfied herself that the attention of workers requirement for Garda clearance for applicants handling such materials has been drawn to the for a licence to operate an employment agency in potential dangers; and if she will make a order to extend this requirement to all directors statement on the matter. [10740/04] of such companies; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [10736/04] Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): Minister of State at the Department of There are a range of regulatory provisions either Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): already in existence or pending in regard to the In Sustaining Progress — the social partnership placing on the market, importation and use of agreement 2003-2005, the Government fertiliser blends containing ammonium nitrate undertook to carry out a review, in consultation and these are administered and enforced by the with the social partners and others, of the need Department of Agriculture and Food, the to adapt the Employment Agency Act 1971 or Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform the necessity for new legislation. I assure the and the Health and Safety Authority. I am Deputy that the issue raised by her in her informed that these Departments and their question will be addressed in the context of this agencies are in ongoing liaison with each other, review. and with representatives of the Irish Fertiliser Manufacturers Association, IFMA, with regard to Departmental Correspondence. the safety implications involved. I am also 183. Mr. Quinn asked the Ta´naiste and informed that all the parties have agreed an Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment action plan outlining their respective roles. the reason she has instructed that no letters of In short, the roles of the Departments and their clarification be issued from her Department into agencies can be described as follows: the the public domain confirming that at the time of Department of Agriculture and Food carries out allegations of misappropriation of funds, sampling and chemical analysis on fertilisers including grants from her Department, being placed on the Irish market and alerts the made against the general secretary of a non- Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform governmental organisation (details supplied), her in case of non-compliance. It also carries out Department had on file documentary evidence to labelling checks for product identification the contrary; the reason, despite repeated purposes and to ensure that such products are in requests from the person concerned to her accordance with standards laid down in the Department, she has maintained this blockade; various legal instruments; the Department of the action she proposes to take to rectify this Justice, Equality and Law Reform administers situation; and if she will make a statement on the and enforces the Explosives (Ammonium Nitrate matter. [10738/04] and Sodium Chlorate) Order 1972 (SI 191 of 1972), which is made under the Explosives Act Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade 1875. This order declares that the substances and Employment (Ms Harney): I have not issued specified in the schedule to the order shall be any instructions regarding this matter to my deemed to be explosives within the meaning of Department. My Department was not a party to the Explosives Act 1875. The schedule to the any such allegations and has already confirmed to order includes, inter alia, ammonium nitrate and the person concerned both in correspondence certain fertilisers, which contain ammonium and in the course of several meetings that the nitrate in excess of 79% by weight. Under the Department does not have any issue or concern terms of the order these substances are deemed to pursue with him. Furthermore, all relevant to be explosives within the meaning of the Act documents relating to the issues referred to by and are therefore subject to the security controls the Deputy have been released to this person. It operated under that Act; the Health and Safety is a matter for the individual concerned to decide Authority, during its inspection of relevant sites, how such documentation might be of use to him check that facilities and arrangements, including in relation to his dealings with any third parties. the provision of appropriate information and training, for the safe storage of fertilisers are in Hazardous Substances. place. 184. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Ta´naiste and There is also a commitment by the fertiliser Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment manufacturing industry to review and update the if her attention has been drawn to concerns safety information available to users of their 709 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 710 products. Regulation (EC) No. 2003/2003 of the my Department, are continuing to promote the European Parliament and of the Council of 13 Celbridge facility. October 2003 relating to fertilisers applies to products which are placed on the market as Departmental Investigations. fertilisers designated “EC-Fertilisers” and in the 187. Ms McManus asked the Ta´naiste and context of the regulation importation of a Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, fertiliser into the customs territory of the further to Question No. 4 of 21 March 2002 on European Community is deemed to constitute the examination by her officials and their placing on the market. Under this regulation, consultations with the Attorney General’s office, which has yet to be given full effect, high nitrogen if she will report on their findings in relation to content ammonium nitrate fertilisers, for the groups of Irish meat plants being controlled example, those containing more than 28% by by a company (details supplied); and if she will mass of nitrogen in relation to ammonium nitrate, make a statement on the matter. [10912/04] are subject to a detonation resistance test. This will be required to be carried out by the supplying 188. Ms McManus asked the Ta´naiste and company and a test certificate must be made Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, available five days prior to the importation of the further to Question No 4 of 21 March 2002, if she fertiliser. For fertilisers with nitrogen content of has satisfied herself that the companies in less than 28% no detonation test is required. The question are no longer controlled from regulation, inter alia, also specifies labelling Liechtenstein; and if she will make a statement requirements for fertilisers so that users are fully on the matter. [10913/04] informed as to nutrients present for plant growth and percentage and forms of such nutrients, etc. Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade Depending on the amount of fertiliser and Employment (Ms Harney): I propose to take involved, if a company comes within the relevant Questions Nos. 187 and 188 together. thresholds for dangerous substances, the As indicated in my response to the House on 5 provisions of the European Communities November 2002, the advice of the Attorney (Control of Major Accident Hazards Involving General which was received in this matter did not Dangerous Substances) Regulations 2000 would afford any basis for further action against the also apply. The Carriage of Dangerous Goods by person concerned arising from his acceptance, for Road Regulations 2004 are also be relevant to the the purpose of a particular court case, that he safe transport of fertilisers. controlled the group of Irish meat plants in I welcome the fact that the relevant State question. agencies are liaising and co-operating with each other, and the manufacturing sector, in this Defence Forces Property. important safety matter. 189. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for Defence if a feasibility study has been undertaken Local Elections. to assess the possibility of converting St. Bricin’s 185. Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Ta´naiste and military hospital to use as a civilian step-down Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment facility; the present bed capacity of St. Bricin’s; her views on whether a restriction can apply to a the present in-patient occupancy rate of its person holding a migrant working permit, who capacity; and if he will make a statement on the has been a resident here for more than six matter. [10546/04] months, from standing as a candidate in the local Minister for Defence (Mr. M. Smith): In 2001, elections in June 2004. [10742/04] a feasibility study was carried out into an outline Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade proposal from the Northern Area Health Board and Employment (Ms Harney): Eligibility criteria for the potential use of part of St. Bricin’s for candidates in local elections are not a matter hospital for acute day case ophthalmic surgery as for my Department. a pilot project. Detailed examination and analysis indicated Industrial Development. that this project would not have been cost effective or attractive for the NAHB in terms of 186. Mr. Stagg asked the Ta´naiste and Minister a limited throughput of civilian patient numbers for Enterprise, Trade and Employment , further as against a quite significant level of relative to Question No. 204 of 24 February 2004, if there capital costs. In the event, the NAHB secured has been further progress in relation to the site in access to suitable facilities elsewhere in Dublin. question; if agreement has been reached in The Department is always available for relation to same; and if she will make a statement discussions in the future if the NAHB, or any on the matter. [10766/04] other public health agency, wishes to explore the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade potential for a mutually beneficial collaboration and Employment (Ms Harney): I understand which would serve to enhance the respective there have been no further developments on this service delivery priorities of the various parties. issue. However, I assure the Deputy that the The military authorities have advised that the State development agencies, under the aegis of present capacity of St. Bricin’s hospital is 48; only 711 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 712

[Mr. M. Smith.] objective requires an ongoing modernisation ten are available at present due to refurbishment. process, including an investment programme to The present in-patient occupancy rate of its ensure that the Defence Forces are properly capacity is 20%. equipped for these roles. In seeking to modernise the Defence Forces in Defence Forces Equipment. accordance with the objectives of the White 190. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Defence Paper, I have been fully conscious of the need to if recruits in the armed forces are provided with obtain the best possible efficiencies from existing all clothing necessary for the carrying out of their resources, and have reported to the House on duties by his Department; if recruits have to pay many occasions on the methods by which this has for some items of clothing; and if he will make a been achieved. statement on the matter. [10758/04] The conclusions of the Thessaloniki European Council tasked the appropriate bodies of the Minister for Defence (Mr. M. Smith): Defence Council to undertake the necessary actions Forces clothing and equipment are issued to towards creating, in the course of 2004, an personnel at no cost to the individual. Constant intergovernmental agency in the field of defence oversight by the Defence Forces ensures that the capabilities development, research, acquisition highest standard of clothing and equipment is and armaments. On 17 November 2003 the issued to meet all operational circumstances, both General Affairs and External Relations Council, at home and abroad. GAERC, decided that this work would be supported by an agency establishment team Defence Forces Property. which has since been set up by the SG/HR Javier 191. Mr. S. Power asked the Minister for Solana, and is working under his authority. Defence the reason the pharmacy on the Curragh As part of the mandate for the incoming is closed; when it will reopen; the arrangements Presidency, the European Council held in in place to service the needs of the residents while Brussels in December 2003 invited the Irish it is closed; and if he will make a statement on Presidency to take forward work on the further the matter. [10759/04] development of European military capabilities including, “To advance the establishment, in the Minister for Defence (Mr. M. Smith): The course of 2004, of an Agency in the field of pharmacy at the Curragh is closed because the defence capabilities development, research, pharmacist stationed there is on maternity leave. acquisition and armaments.” Arrangements are being put in place to secure Discussions on the establishment of the agency the services of a locum pharmacist to dispense are continuing at EU level and will be included prescriptions at the Curragh pharmacy. It is on the agenda of the informal meeting of Defence expected that dispensing will resume within the Ministers in Brussels on 5 and 6 April 2004. While next few weeks. In the interim, alternative much of the detail in regard to structure and arrangements are in place for prescriptions to be functions of the agency has yet to be agreed, filled for military personnel at a local chemist. participation by respective member states in the Agency — as in all aspects of ESDP — will be Defence Policy. voluntary. 192. Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the Minister for As I have said in the past, developments in this Defence the implications for Defence spending in area may yield some future economies of scale or the State of the establishment of the EU efficiencies in the procurement of defence Armaments Agency agreed in November 2003; if equipment which I would obviously support. In the cost projections have been done, including that context the development of the agency may the expected costs to the Exchequer; if so, if he possibly be a development which will foster some will report on the results; if not, when they will cost/benefit improvements for future defence be done; and if they will be published. [10908/04] spending. Minister for Defence (Mr. M. Smith): I refer Farm Retirement Scheme. the Deputy to my reply to Question No. 3 of 25 193. Ms Enright asked the Minister for March last which related to the impact to date on Agriculture and Food the position in relation to defence spending of EU defence measures and the pre-2000 early retirement scheme from the anticipated impact on defence spending over farming; if a person who let their land for two the next ten years by EU defence-related years for a nine month period each year will still measures and commitments. be eligible to receive the early retirement scheme As I stated in my reply, the Government’s once they had applied under this scheme in view White Paper on Defence, published in February of the fact that it was in 1999; and if he will make 2000, set out a medium-term strategy for defence a statement on the matter. [10473/04] covering the period up to 2010. A major objective of the strategy is to ensure that Ireland has a Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. world-class military organisation capable of Walsh): Applications under the 1994 scheme of carrying out the roles assigned to it by the early retirement from farming closed on 31 Government, both at home and abroad. This December 1999. Without specific details of this 713 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 714 case, it is not possible to comment on the person’s hardship in the context of the milk quota system. eligibility for payment of pension. It also examines applications from producers whose herds have been restricted by animal Forestry Support Schemes. disease in the current quota year. The person in 194. Mr. M. Brady asked the Minister for question submitted an application for additional Agriculture and Food if moneys will be made quota on the grounds of animal disease and, available for forest roads in view of the recent having considered the application and the budgetary increase for forestry investment; if so, circumstances which applied in this case, the the criteria for qualification for same; and if he tribunal recommended an allocation of 30,000 will make a statement on the matter. [10496/04] litres. The person and his co-operative have been informed of this decision. Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. In considering applications on the grounds of Walsh): As I announced on 12 February funding animal disease the tribunal takes account of the has been made available for the forestry support producer’s total available quota, the quantity and schemes including forest roads. The road scheme pattern of milk deliveries, and the estimated is being targeted at forest owners who intend to requirement until the end of the quota year. carry out thinning/harvesting in the immediate Furthermore, it also makes allowance for other future. factors such as the length of time the herd was restricted, the increase in herd size due to the Grant Payments. restriction, and the availability of temporary 195. Mr. Hayes asked the Minister for leasing in the producer’s co-operative. While Agriculture and Food the reason cattle subsidies every application to the tribunal is treated in a under the ten and 22 month schemes have ceased fair and sympathetic manner it has not been to be awarded to a person (details supplied) in possible, within the constraints of the limited County Tipperary; and if these subsidies will be amount of quota available and the sizeable granted to this person. [10513/04] number of applications received, to meet fully all of the demands for additional quota. Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. Walsh): The person named submitted one Forestry Payments. application, in respect of five animals, under the 197. Mr. Murphy asked the Minister for 2003 special beef premium scheme. As the person Agriculture and Food if forestry payment will named did not submit a 2003 area aid application, issue to a person (details supplied) in County the maximum number of livestock units for which Kerry; and the reason these payments have not payment could be considered is 15 livestock units. been made in view of the fact that they were In calculating stocking density, an applicant’s promised by the end of March 2004. [10667/04] milk quota must also be taken into account; the person named has a milk quota of 107,761 litres Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. which equates with 27.06 livestock units, using the Walsh): The 2004 forestry premium will be paid notional average yield of 3,982 litres per cow. within the next week. Because of this, no premium payment is due to the person named in respect of the five animals Agenda 2000. in question. 198. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Agriculture and Food the action he is taking to Milk Quota. address the issues which have been raised 196. Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for regarding the impact which the mid-term review Agriculture and Food if he will consider the case of Agenda 2000 will have on the rights of of a person (details supplied) in County Galway; participants of the early retirement scheme; and if his attention has been drawn to the fact that if he will make a statement on the matter. this person organised the sale of his entire herd [10668/04] of cows in spring 2003 but was prevented from Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. completing the sale as a result of an unofficial Walsh): The discussions with the European strike at his Department’s district office in Commission on the detailed implementing rules Galway; his views on whether the circumstances for the single payment scheme have now were outside the control of this person; if a concluded. In the course of negotiations on these sizeable additional allocation of milk quota will rules I have secured certain changes to the initial be made available in the circumstances; and if he proposals for farmers who retired under the will make a statement on the matter. [10576/04] previous and current schemes of early retirement Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. from farming. The legal position laid down in the Walsh): Allocations of milk quota from the Council regulation is that payment entitlements national reserve are granted on the basis of can be established only for farmers who were recommendations from the Milk Quota Appeals active during the reference period — by Tribunal which was established to consider and definition, this excludes farmers who had retired advise on applications for additional quota from under the 1994 scheme of early retirement from individual producers who have suffered severe farming.) In order to activate those entitlements 715 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 716

[Mr. Walsh.] A framework for dealing with scrapie positive in 2005, a farmer for whom they are established flocks has recently been finalised. This must continue to farm in that year and submit an framework provides, inter alia, for free area aid application. genotyping of the flock, retention of suitable Notwithstanding these constraints I have genotypes for breeding, a measure of free secured several favourable arrangements in genotyping for replacement rams, the payment of regard to participants in the early retirement market value for breeding animals which have to schemes such that where the transferee inherits be disposed of following genotyping — net of the holding of the retired farmer, he or she can salvage value where these animals can be sent for also inherit any entitlements established for the human consumption — an additional payment for retired farmer. Farmers, including offspring of breeding ewes and the payment of factory value farmers who retired before the reference period, for factory lambs and hoggets. These who take over the holding of a retired farmer at arrangements are now being applied and all some date in the future will be able to apply to concerned are being notified accordingly. A total the national reserve for payment entitlements of 12 new positive flocks were confirmed with the under the single payment scheme. Where the disease in the first three months of 2004, while in transferee, whether family or non-family, took 2003 there were 37 such flocks. over the holding during the reference period and started farming for the first time, his or her Animal Welfare. entitlements will be based on the two year 200. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for average or simply based on one year as the case Agriculture and Food if he has plans to tighten may be. Farmers who entered the early up animal welfare laws in view of the recent retirement scheme after the reference period will serious cases of abuse revealed by a television have entitlements established for them provided programme (details supplied) and by ISPCA; and they were actively farming and in receipt of direct the nature of the protections under existing law payments during one or more of the reference with regard to deer hunting, dog farming and fur years. Such farmers can apply in 2005 to establish farming. [10717/04] those entitlements only, provided that a lease agreement is in place at that time whereby the Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. entitlements can then be leased to the lessee. Walsh): I attach considerable importance to animal welfare issues and have taken several Animal Diseases. recent initiatives in this area, including establishing the Farm Animal Welfare Advisory 199. Mr. Hogan asked the Minister for Council, with a view to promoting and sustaining Agriculture and Food when he will finalise a good practice and compliance with all of the scheme to tackle the problem of sheep scrapie relevant standards, whether on-farm, during disease; when he will be introducing a transport or at time of slaughter. FAWAC is compensation programme to remove the infected chaired by an independent chairman and includes animals; and the number of animals and flocks representation from farming bodies, animal notified with the disease. [10677/04] welfare organisations, livestock exporters, the veterinary profession, Teagasc and the Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. agriculture Departments in Dublin and Belfast. Walsh): My Department has introduced a FAWAC has already identified a number of multidimensional policy, for the control and areas that it feels are worthy of particular eradication of scrapie, based in large measure on attention and made such issues part of its initial EU law. This includes: active surveillance for the work programme. I am aware that some of the disease involving 10,000 rapid tests each at issues raised by the Deputy have been raised at slaughterhouses and knackeries in 2004; a survey FAWAC and are likely to be the subject of views of genotypes among the main native breeds which or recommendations conveyed to me by that was completed last year; measures for dealing body. I will carefully consider any views that with scrapie positive flocks which are in place FAWAC may wish to offer on animal health and since 2001 and which, since 1 October 2004, welfare issues and how concerns might be best involve genotyping and partial depopulation of addressed, while recognising that my colleague infected flocks. In addition, a national genotyping the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and programme designed to increase levels of scrapie Local Government has particular statutory resistance in the national flock by facilitating the responsibilities for deer hunting and puppy genotyping of individual animals and promoting farming, under the provisions of the Wildlife Act a genetic re-configuration of the national flock 1976 and the Control of Dogs Acts 1986 and 1992. will be launched in the next few weeks and in I have also established a scientific advisory parallel with this, a framework for the recognition committee on animal health and welfare, which of scrapie resistance in flocks, in the form of a is independently chaired and includes among its flock status scheme, is being finalised. membership persons of particular expertise and 717 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 718 scientific distinction. This Committee is available A person can be credited only with additional to advise me of the scientific dimensions of notional service for which he or she has paid. animal health or welfare. It is also available to The officer concerned is retiring shortly. He assist FAWAC where required. exercised an option in 1990 to purchase three I do have statutory responsibility for fur years service for superannuation purposes by farming, which is regulated for animal welfare periodic deductions from his salary until his 65th purposes by the provisions of the Protection of birthday. In 1995, he opted to purchase an Animals Kept for Farming Purposes Act 1984 additional one year and 325 days service. and by the European Communities (Protection of However, it has recently come to the attention of Animals Kept for Farming Purposes) Regulations my Department that the deductions towards the 2000 which transpose the provisions of EU first option of purchase of service were Directive 98/58/EC. My Department inspects inadvertently discontinued when the deductions licensed fur farms under this legislation and for the second option commenced in 1995. The under the European Communities (Protection of officer’s service at retirement will be 38 years and Animals at Time of Slaughter) Regulations 1995. 26 days. My Department is discussing possible In addition the Council of Europe options with the person concerned for making recommendations concerning fur animals apply. good the shortfall in his service within the constraints of the purchase scheme. The Protection of Animals Acts 1911 and 1965, which are the principal statutes governing cruelty Tax Code. to animals in Ireland are enforced by the Garda, 202. Mr. O’Shea asked the Minister for Finance who may, on receipt of a complaint, investigate his proposals to treat all families, whether and bring a prosecution against any person married or otherwise, equally in the tax laws; and alleged to have committed an act of cruelty if he will make a statement on the matter. against an animal in this country. The penalties [10453/04] for cruelty under the 1911 Act were increased Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy): Iam significantly by the Control of Horses Act 1996. aware that the tax treatment differs as between Finally, I have for several years past provided family units comprising married, separated, end-year grants from available resources to cohabiting or same sex couples. The difference animal welfare organisations throughout the in treatment reflects the differing nature of the country to help them in the work of providing relationships involved, the legal arrangements direct care and welfare services to animals. In which may exist between the relevant parties as December 2003 I announced grants totalling \ regards, for example, maintenance and support, 850,000 to 80 organisations to help their efforts and the provisions of the general law as it relates during 2004. This package encompassed to the status of familial structures. organisations in every county in the country and The working group examining the treatment of \ brought to almost 3.8 million the total amount married, cohabiting and one-parent families of assistance made available to date to such under the tax and social welfare codes, which organisations by my Department. reported in August 1999, acknowledged that a key issue in the tax treatment of cohabiting Pension Provisions. couples is whether tax law should proceed ahead 201. Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for of changes in the general law. In my view, such a Agriculture and Food if he will take steps to course, where changes in the tax code would set allocate the correct number of years of service to a headline in advance of developments in other a person (details supplied) in County Westmeath; relevant areas of public policy, for example, in the reason this person’s years of service have the area of legal recognition of relationships been left one and a half years short; if same will other than married relationships, would be be properly computed; and if he will make a problematic and unwise. I indicated to the Da´il statement on the matter. [10776/04] in February last that I had no plans to change the different treatments under the tax code and that Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. is still my position. Walsh): Under the scheme for the purchase of notional service, civil servants may, subject to Motor Vehicle Registration. certain conditions, purchase notional service in 203. Mr. S. Power asked the Minister for respect of the shortfall of service which they Finance the number of new vehicles registered in would otherwise have in making up their the first three months of 2004; how this compares maximum pension entitlements at retirement age. with previous years; and if he will make a Service can be purchased in two ways: by periodic statement on the matter. [10552/04] deduction from salary or by lump sum payment. Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy): The The purchase scheme has been designed in such Revenue Commissioners inform me that the a way as to ensure that it is self-financing and number of vehicles registered for VRT purposes appropriate actuarial tables have been devised to in the first three months of the years 2000 to 2004 cater for the different purchase options available. inclusive are as set out in the table below. 719 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 720

[Mr. McCreevy.]

Year Motor Cars Car Derived Vans Commercial Vehicles Motor Cycles Total Registrations

2000 103,240 1,111 18,544 2,293 125,188 2001 78,624 1,347 18,920 2,607 101,498 2002 73,088 1,311 16,437 2,072 92,908 2003 68,863 1,077 15,553 1,742 87,235 2004 75,569 1,347 15,456 1,337 93,709

Oil Prices. Departmental Properties. 204. Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for 206. Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for Finance if, in view of the recent continued and Finance the use it is proposed to make of the unexpectedly high oil prices, he will make a vacant social welfare office block at Quay Road, statement on the impact of these prices on growth Dungloe, County Donegal; and if he will make a rates here; and his views on estimates of statement on the matter. [10620/04] international research bodies and media Minister of State at the Department of Finance regarding this matter. [10560/04] (Mr. Parlon): The property in question has been Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy): As of 2 identified as surplus to current Government April 2004 the price of oil had risen by 36% since accommodation requirements. Arrangements are its 21-month low of $22.94 on 28 April 2003. The being made by the Commissioners of Public Works to dispose of same on the open market increased price of oil is due to several factors, soon. including reduced supply and increased demand as a consequence of the recovering international Tax Credits. economy. In the event of a sustained, significant increase in the price of oil, disposable spending 207. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Finance power would tend to decrease and economic if the claim for incapacitated child allowance will growth would tend to weaken both in Ireland and be reassessed for a person (details supplied) in in our major trading partners. Our exports to the County Sligo in view of the extenuating medical latter would decrease and inflation in Ireland circumstances and the additional medical would increase. Therefore, a sustained increase in problems in the family; and if he will make a the price of oil would impact negatively on both statement on the matter. [10693/04] economic growth and inflation in Ireland. Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy): The However, due to the recent appreciation of the Revenue Commissioners advise that a claim for euro the full effect of the increased oil price has the incapacitated child tax credit was made to the not significantly impacted on Irish inflation. The Sligo Revenue district by letter dated 25 April strong euro has also mitigated the adverse impact 2003. Two medical reports were enclosed with the on the European economy. claim. Section 465 of the Taxes Consolidation Act My Department’s economic forecast at budget 1997 provides an incapacitated child tax credit of time last December assumed that the 2004 price \500 for a person who proves that he/she has of oil would be $25.60 per barrel. The average living at any time during a year of assessment a price of a barrel of oil in the first quarter of this child who is permanently incapacitated by reason year has been 25% higher than that. However, of mental or physical infirmity. A child under 18 model estimates conducted by the ESRI in the is regarded as permanently incapacitated by past indicate that if this price level were sustained reason of mental or physical infirmity only if the for the rest of the year then it would reduce GNP infirmity is such that there would be a reasonable growth by about one eighth of a per cent in the expectation that if the child were over the age of 18 years the child would be incapacitated from medium term. maintaining himself or herself. The Revenue Commissioners inform me that Tax Yield. the medical reports indicate that the child 205. Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for concerned suffers from epilepsy (which is Finance if his Department has statistics on the controlled by medication) and that he has amount of income tax paid by those aged over 65; learning and other difficulties. The essential point and the proportion this amount represents of in both reports relates to the provision of a total income tax over the 1999 to 2003 period. resource teacher so that he can make progress [10561/04] within mainstream education. In the circumstances the Inspector considered Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy): The that the conditions for the relief were not information sought by the Deputy on income tax satisfied. The Revenue Commissioners advise paid by those aged 65 and over is not available in that nothing has since emerged that would lead my Department at present. to a change in that decision. 721 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 722

Flood Relief. self-government. It shall respect their essential state functions, including those for ensuring the 208. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Finance territorial integrity of the State, and for the position in relation to reports required to maintaining law and order and safeguarding progress the flood alleviation measures in the internal security. Ardclough and Leixlip areas of County Kildare; if funding is available in 2004 to assist in the In addition, the principles of subsidiarity and of preparation of the required reports and in respect proportionality are being strengthened, with a of the actual flood alleviation works required; greater role for national parliaments. and if he will make a statement on the matter. In the event that negotiations on the [10762/04] constitutional treaty are successfully concluded, it is likely that an amendment to Bunreacht na Minister of State at the Department of Finance hE´ ireann will be required to allow for its (Mr. Parlon): I refer the Deputy to my reply to ratification by Ireland, as has been the case with his most recent Parliamentary Question on this previous EU treaties. However, the scope and matter, Question No. 251 of 24 February 2004. authority of the Irish Constitution will not The position as outlined in my reply to that otherwise be affected by the entry into force of question remains unchanged. the constitutional treaty. Architectural Heritage. Departmental Appointments. 209. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Finance 211. Ms Lynch asked the Minister for Foreign if the revised schedule of works for Lucan Affairs if he will review the case of a person Demesne has been agreed and submitted to his (details supplied) employed at the Cork Passport Department; if same has been approved; the cost Office, who wishes to apply for a permanent of the works; the funding being made available in position, but who has been refused an interview; each year for the works; and if he will make a and if he will make a statement on the matter. statement on the matter. [10763/04] [10760/04] Minister of State at the Department of Finance Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Cowen): The (Mr. Parlon): I wish to confirm that the current human resources unit of my Department is in position remains unchanged from that outlined in touch with the officer in question and has offered my response to the Deputy’s most recent to seek the advice of the chief medical officer for question on this issue, Question No. 252 of 24 the Civil Service on any new medical evidence February 2004. the officer is able to provide in support of her case. My Department has also approached the EU Constitutional Treaty. Civil Service Commission to ask that, subject to 210. Mr. F. McGrath asked the Minister for the officer meeting the sick leave requirements, it Foreign Affairs the position regarding the talks consider reconstituting a selection panel to dealing with a new EU constitutional treaty; if enable her to compete for a permanent position this will lead eventually to a united states of Europe; and the effect this will have on the Irish Military Air Craft. Constitution. [10443/04] 212. Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the Minister for Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Cowen): The Foreign Affairs if US Special Forces were aboard position regarding the negotiations on the new flights landing in Shannon Airport on 27 and 28 constitutional treaty was set out in detail in March 2004; the steps he has taken to verify that Deputy Kitt’s reply to Priority Question No. 5 of there were no arms on board the US Marine 31 March 2004. The European Council at its Corps C-130 Hercules that landed at Casement meeting on 25 and 26 March decided that Aerodrome, Baldonnel, on 29-30 March 2004; the agreement on the treaty should be reached no content of the cargo reportedly removed from the later than the June European Council. aircraft; and the steps he has taken in response to The constitutional treaty does not aim to create the flying of the “jolly Roger” flag by this foreign and will not result in the creation of a united military aircraft. [10914/04] states of Europe. A proposal to rename the Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Cowen): The European Union in this way received no support Deputy is aware that the use of Shannon Airport at the Convention. The constitutional treaty will by the US military is a long-standing practice make clear that all of the Union’s competences which has been in place for a number of decades. are bestowed upon it by the member states, and In this regard, the carriage of US troops by it does not provide for a significant transfer of civilian aircraft carriers takes place in accordance new competences to the Union. The draft states with the Air Navigation (Carriage of Munitions that: of War, Weapons and Dangerous Goods) Order The Union shall respect the national 1973, as amended in 1989, for which the Minister identities of the Member States, inherent in for Transport has responsibility. This legislation their fundamental structures, political and is concerned specifically with the carriage of constitutional, inclusive of regional and local munitions of war and weapons and allows the 723 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 724

[Mr. Cowen.] achieve the most effective deployment of Minister for Transport to issue exemptions for resources already allocated for special the carriage of such goods. There is no educational needs within the school. requirement for the identification of any specific My Department is reviewing existing military unit being transported. arrangements for the allocation of special Permission for foreign military aircraft to land educational supports to primary schools. In that is a matter for the Minister for Foreign Affairs, context, my officials have initiated discussions on must take place in accordance with the provisions the matter with representative interests. At this of the Air Navigation (Foreign Military Aircraft) stage, it would be premature to anticipate the Order 1952, and is normally granted on outcome. I can confirm, however that the basic conditions including that the aircraft be unarmed purpose of that review is to ensure that each and not carrying arms, ammunition and school has the level of resources required to cater explosives. Records show that the landing of the for its pupils with special educational needs. C-130 at Baldonnel military aerodrome in late March took place in conformity with these Departmental Property. criteria. 214. Mr. Hogan asked the Minister for The flying of the “jolly Roger”, which is an Education and Science if ownership of the informal flag with no particular status, was property of a school (details supplied) in County queried with the US Embassy. The embassy Kilkenny, can be transferred to Castlecomer confirmed that the hoisting of unauthorised flags Enterprise Group. [10446/04] on US military aircraft is not permitted. Any further action would be a matter for the US Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. authorities. Dempsey): The matter of the transfer of ownership of the property of County Kilkenny School Staffing. Vocational Education Committee, at Castlecomer, County Kilkenny, to the 213. Mr. Carey asked the Minister for Castlecomer Enterprise Group is under Education and Science if he will consider the consideration. My Department will be in contact appointment of a full-time resource teacher to a with the committee as soon as a decision is made. school (details supplied) in County Roscommon; and if he will make a statement on the matter. School Staffing. [10445/04] 215. Mr. Hogan asked the Minister for Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Education and Science if extra resource hours Dempsey): The school referred to by the Deputy will be allocated to persons (details supplied) in has the services of a full-time resource teacher County Kilkenny; and if he will make a statement and part-time resource teaching hours together on the matter. [10447/04] with a shared learning support teacher. My Department has received applications for Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. additional special educational resources from the Dempsey): The school referred to by the Deputy school in question. SER applications received currently has the services of a part-time resource between 15 February and 31 August 2003, teacher together with a shared learning support including those made by this school, are being teacher. I can confirm that my Department has considered. In all, more than 5,000 such received applications for additional special applications were received. Priority was given to educational resources (SER) from the school on cases involving children starting school last behalf of the pupils in question. September and all these cases were responded to SER applications received between 15 on or before the commencement of the current February and 31 August 2003, including those school year. The balance of more than 4,000 made by this school, are being considered at applications has been reviewed by a dedicated present. In all, more than 5,000 such applications team comprising members of my Department’s were received. Priority was given to cases inspectorate and the National Educational involving children starting school last September Psychological Service. These applications are and all these cases were responded to at or before being further considered in the context of the the commencement of the current school year. outcome of surveys of SER provision conducted The balance of more than 4,000 applications has over the past year or so. Account is also being been reviewed by a dedicated team comprising taken of the data submitted by schools as part of members of my Department’s inspectorate and the recent nationwide census of SER provision. the national educational psychological service. The processing of the applications is a complex These applications are being further considered and time-consuming operation. However, my in the context of the outcome of surveys of SER Department is endeavouring to have this provision conducted over the past year or so. completed as quickly as possible and my officials Account is also being taken of the data submitted will then respond to all applicant schools. by schools as part of the recent nationwide census Pending a response, schools are advised to refer of SER provision. The processing of the to circular 24-03, issued in September, 2003. This applications is a complex and time-consuming circular contains practical advice on how to operation. However, my Department is 725 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 726 endeavouring to have this completed as quickly parents in exercising that choice. Recognised as possible and my officials will then respond to post-primary pupils who live at least three miles all applicant schools. Pending a response, schools from the post-primary centre of the catchment are advised to refer to circular 24-03, issued in area in which they reside, are eligible for September 2003. This circular contains practical transport under the scheme to that centre. advice on how to achieve the most effective Eligible pupils who wish to attend a post-primary deployment of resources already allocated for centre other than their appropriate one may be special educational needs within the school. allowed transport from within the catchment boundary of the centre being attended, subject to Educational Projects. there being spare accommodation available on 216. Ms Enright asked the Minister for the service and provided that no additional State Education and Science the reason Mountmellick cost is incurred. has been included in the pilot education project It is the practice of my Department to consult for County Laois with the Mountrath area; the with local educational interests, where any objective of the project; and if he will make a adjustment is being proposed to the existing statement on the matter. [10472/04] catchment boundary arrangements. I will keep the Deputy informed of any developments in Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. this regard. Dempsey): The largely homogenous nature of the Mountmellick and Mountrath areas together with 218. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for their relative close proximity to one and other Education and Science if he will report on the combine to make it a suitable starting point for most recent review of the school transport section an area development plan. Additionally, the in relation to catchment areas. [10491/04] imminent closure of Ballyfin College requires an exploration of all available options to cater for Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. the residue of pupils following the closure. That Dempsey): The revision of catchment areas is is why it was thought that the Mountmellick- addressed by the planning unit of my Department Mounthrath area should be considered in its as the need arises. It is the practice of my totality under one plan. The purpose of area Department to consult with local educational development plans, which is a radical new interests, where any such adjustments are being approach to school planning, is to ensure that, in contemplated. future, the provision of school infrastructure will be decided only after a transparent consultation Schools Building Projects. process. Thus parents, trustees, sponsors of 219. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for prospective new schools and all interested parties Education and Science the status of a building from a locality will have the opportunity to make project required at a school (details supplied) in their voices heard in the process. Following the County Kilkenny; the stage the project is at; and consultation process, individual plans will set out if it can be expedited. [10492/04] the blueprint for schools’ development in an area covering a period of up to ten years. The plan will Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. form the basis against which all capital funding Dempsey): An application for grant-aid towards decisions for the area will be made over that improvement works has been received from the period of time. management authorities of Creenkill national school, Gatmabawn, County Kilkenny. As I School Transport. announced in the 2004 school building programme, a key strategy will be grounded on 217. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for the budget day announcement of multiannual Education and Science the reason the school allocations for capital investment in education transport problem affecting many of the students projects. All projects not going to construction as attending a school (details supplied) in County part of the 2004 school building programme will Cork, has not been resolved; the further reason be re-evaluated with a view to including them as the solution of a common catchment area, which part of a multiannual building programme from was proposed some years ago, has not been 2005 onwards. The application from Creenkill adopted; and if his attention has been drawn to will be considered in this context. the huge continuing hardship to a large number of parents and students arising from the failure to Teaching Qualifications. resolve the problem. [10485/04] 220. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Education and Science if, further to Dempsey): I should explain that for the purpose correspondence (details supplied), he will address of the post-primary education scheme, the the issue concerned; and if he will make a country has been divided into catchment areas, statement on the matter. [10503/04] each of which has its own post-primary centre. While it is the prerogative of parents to send their Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. children to the school of their choice, it is not the Dempsey): At primary level teachers are class object of the school transport scheme to facilitate teachers rather than subject specialists and must 727 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 728

[Mr. N. Dempsey.] examinations, courses of study for applicants for be qualified to teach the range of primary school the examinations and the period of provisional subjects to children aged from four to 12 years. recognition granted to applicants within which Accordingly, applicants must satisfy my they are expected to pass the SCG. The report is Department that they are competent to teach the under consideration and decisions on its Irish language and to teach the range of primary recommendations contained in it will be taken school curricular subjects through the medium of very shortly. The working group earlier drafted Irish before being granted full recognition to an interim syllabus which was circulated to all teach in mainstream classes in national schools. schools in December, 2002. The SCG Teachers trained outside the jurisdiction of the examinations held in October, 2003 were the first State, whose qualifications have been assessed series of SCG examinations to be based on this and accepted by my Department, but who do not syllabus copies of which, including a reading list possess an appropriate Irish language of prose and poetry to be studied for the qualification, are granted a five year period of examinations, are available on request from provisional recognition to teach in mainstream Primary Administration Section 1, Department of classes in national schools. During this period Education and Science, Cornamaddy, Athlone, these teachers are expected to obtain their Irish County Westmeath. language qualification in order to become fully An updated language syllabus for the SCG has recognised. These teachers are remunerated in also been published on the Department’s website the same manner as fully qualified teachers together with a handbook for the examination during this period. In order to satisfy the Irish which was drafted by the working group. The language requirements for recognition as a handbook contains detailed information on the primary teacher, applicants, who have been SCG and provides answers to a wide range of granted provisional recognition, must pass the questions raised by candidates. It is planned to written, aural and oral parts of the Scru´ du´ produce a textbook of relevant prose and poetry Ca´ilı´ochta sa Ghaeilge. Candidates who have for future examinations. Irish to primary degree level may be granted an exemption from paper II of the SCG and provide School Curriculum. certification that they have resided in the 221. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Gaeltacht while attending an approved three- Education and Science the reason for the delay week course or its aggregated equivalent either in in providing a leaving certificate curriculum in one-week blocks or in a combination of one-week technology; when the matter will be addressed; and two-week blocks. On successful completion and if he will make a statement on the matter. of the SCG, my Department pays a grant of [10507/04] \431.71 to the individual concerned towards the cost of attendance at the Gaeltacht course. Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Dempsey): Technology is provided for junior The standard required to obtain a pass in the cycle students in 165 schools. While there is no SCG is the standard of Irish that would enable follow-on subject in the senior cycle, there are teachers to teach the language to sixth class in a three recognised technological subjects at leaving national school. Candidates must therefore certificate level namely, engineering, construction demonstrate that they have attained the level of studies and technical drawing which can be language competence described in the syllabus pursued by students who have studied technology and reflected in the examination papers, and that at junior cycle level. The National Council for they understand the methodology of teaching Curriculum and Assessment began the process of Irish as a second language. It must be borne in reviewing the three technological subjects at mind that many primary schools not only teach leaving certificate level and of producing of a new Irish but also have Irish as the principal language syllabus for a follow-on subject for junior cycle of instruction and communication generally. The technology in the early 1990s. number of such schools has grown significantly in Four syllabi are now with my Department for recent years. A primary teacher may have to consideration. These are: engineering technology teach pupils whose mother tongue is Irish, or who — formerly engineering; architectural technology are competent users of the language. Even when — formerly construction studies; design and teaching Irish to pupils whose mother tongue is communication graphics — formerly technical English or another language, it is widely accepted drawing; and technology for which there is no by language teachers that, in order to be effective, equivalent leaving certificate subject. The the teacher needs to have a very good command opportunity to develop the four syllabi of the language. simultaneously has enabled each subject in this I established a working group to review all suite of interrelated subjects to take cognisance aspects of the syllabus and examination for the of the other three, resulting in a high degree of SCG in 2001 which recently submitted its report streamlining between the subjects. However, all to me. A copy of the report has been published four syllabi, in their revised/new state, represent on my Department’s website. Issues dealt with in a fundamental shift from the syllabi operating in the report include the content and format of the schools in terms of content, pedagogy, assessment examination modules, the standard of the arrangements and resource implications. 729 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 730

Consequently, the implementation plan for the persons (details supplied) in County Kilkenny four syllabi will need to take account of a wide who are attending a school (details supplied) in range of school-based and system-wide factors County Kilkenny; and if a response will be given and will necessarily be complex. The NCCA is in view of the exceptional circumstances of the working on an implementation plan that will case. [10515/04] inform the decisions my Department will make in this regard. Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Dempsey): A report on this case has been requested from Bus E´ ireann. The Deputy will be Disadvantaged Status. advised of the position as soon as the report has 222. Mr. Deenihan asked the Minister for been received and assessed. Education and Science if a school (details supplied) in County Kerry, will be designated a Site Acquisitions. disadvantaged school; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10510/04] 225. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for Education and Science if his attention has been Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. drawn to the fact that Dublin City Council is Dempsey): Any decision to expand or extend any reserving a site for a school (details supplied) in of the initiatives aimed at tackling educational Dublin 9 as part of a larger public private disadvantage is being considered in the context of partnership, but is threatened by the failure of a broad review of all such initiatives which is his Department to confirm whether it has made under way in my Department. I anticipate that provision to purchase the site from the Estimates the review process will be completed shortly. 2004; and the position regarding same in view of the fact that there is no risk of an adverse move Psychological Service. in the price as a result of a clear commitment from his Department. [10548/04] 223. Mr. Stanton asked the Minister for Education and Science if, when the national Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. education psychological service following Dempsey): My Department is considering a assessment recommends that a child needs a number of options for the long-term certain number of resource hours allocation, his accommodation needs of the school to which the Department will take steps to ensure that the Deputy referred including the possible purchase allocation is made available; if his attention has of a site. However, due to the commercial been drawn to the instances in which NEPS sensitivities surrounding site acquisitions recommendations have not been followed due to generally, I am unable to comment on specific monetary and staffing resource shortages; and if site purchase issues. he will make a statement on the matter. [10511/04] Schools Building Projects. Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. 226. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Education Dempsey): My Department considers and Science when funding will be sanctioned for applications by schools for special education an extension to a school (details supplied) in resources on the basis of the provisions of the County Mayo; the stage the process is at; and relevant official circulars. Copies of these when works will commence on the building. circulars are posted on my Department’s website. [10554/04] I am not aware of any case where procedures were not followed due to monetary or staffing Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. resource shortages. Dempsey): The large-scale building project for the school referred to by the Deputy is listed in My Department is reviewing existing section 2 of the 2004 school building programme arrangements for the allocation of SER supports which is published on my Department’s website to primary schools and my officials have initiated at www.education.ie. This project is at stage 3 — discussions on the matter with representative detailed plans and costs — of architectural interests. At this stage, it would be premature to planning. anticipate the outcome. I can confirm, however This school was offered a devolved grant under that the basic purpose of that review is to ensure the small schools initiative, however, the grant that each school has the level of resources was not accepted. Accordingly, it is planned to required to cater for its pupils with special progress this project to the next stage of educational needs. Outstanding SER applications architectural planning during 2004. Indicative will be processed on the basis of the timescales have been included for large-scale arrangements introduced as a result of the review. projects proceeding to tender in 2004. The budget announcement regarding multiannual capital School Transport. envelopes will enable me to adopt a multiannual 224. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for framework for the school building programme, Education and Science if school transport or which in turn will give greater clarity regarding grants towards the cost of school transport will be projects that are not progressing to tender in this arranged as a matter of urgency in the case of year’s programme including the school in 731 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 732

[Mr. N. Dempsey.] School Transport. question. I will make a further announcement in 230. Mr. O´ Fearghaı´l asked the Minister for that regard during the year. Education and Science if a remote area boarding 227. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Education grant for a person (details supplied) in County and Science when funding will be sanctioned for Kildare wishing to attend a school (details an extension to a school (details supplied) in supplied), will be approved in view of the fact County Mayo; the stage the process is at; and that this person cannot readily access a school when works will commence on the building. (details supplied) in County Dublin, due to the [10555/04] fact that their home is 20 miles away and not on a direct bus route. [10580/04] Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Dempsey): A large-scale building project for the Dempsey): My Department is investigating the school referred to by the Deputy is listed in case referred to by the Deputy further with Bus section 9 of the 2004 school building programme E´ ireann, who operate the school transport which is published on my Department’s website scheme on behalf of my Department. When the at www.education.ie. This project is at stage 1-2 position is clarified, my officials will be in further — developed sketch — of architectural planning. contact with the Deputy. My Department has assigned it a band 3 rating, in accordance with the published criteria for Schools Recognition. prioritising large-scale projects. The budget announcement regarding multiannual capital 231. Ms Burton asked the Minister for envelopes will enable me to adopt a multiannual Education and Science the situation in relation framework for the school building programme to the proposed Educate Together school for the which in turn will give greater clarity regarding Ongar and Clonee area; if his Department will projects that are not progressing to tender in this give the school the go-ahead; and when the year’s programme including the school to which school can expect to operate. [10581/04] the Deputy referred. I will make a further Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. announcement on that during the year. Dempsey): Based on the recommendations of the Commission on School Accommodation, I put a Special Educational Needs. revised application procedure in place for the 228. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for recognition of new primary schools. The revised Education and Science when he will give the procedure applies to schools intending to information promised in his reply to commence operation from 1 September 2003, on. Parliamentary Question No. 235 of 10 February Under the procedure, the New Schools Advisory 2004 (details supplied); the reason for the delay Committee assesses applications, consults with in responding; if he will respond and accede to interested parties and reports to me. the request for nine hours tuition per week; and An application from Educate Together to if he will make a statement on the matter. establish a new school in the Castaheany, Ongar [10556/04] and Clonee area is one of a number of applications for recognition being assessed by the Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. New Schools Advisory Committee. A decision on Dempsey): My officials have considered the the application will be communicated to the matter referred to by the Deputy and a response patron body and made public by me no later than will issue to the family of the person in question 16 April 2004. within the next few days. School Accommodation. Site Acquisitions. 232. Ms Burton asked the Minister for 229. Mr. O´ Fearghaı´l asked the Minister for Education and Science if his attention has been Education and Science if, in progressing the drawn to the serious concerns being expressed by provision of a new primary school at Nurney, parents about the availability of places at a school County Kildare, he will have regard to the fact (details supplied) in Dublin 15, for September that \130,000 was raised locally for the purchase 2004 and September 2005, and the number of of a site; and if he will accordingly waive the need children who may not obtain places in the school; for further local financial contribution. when the permanent building will proceed; and [10579/04] the number of children the school is expected to Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. cater for. [10582/04] Dempsey): Under current funding arrangements, Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. the amount of the local contribution for new Dempsey): The proposed new school for Mary schools is 5% of the cost up to a maximum Mother of Hope NS, Littlepace, Clonee, Dublin contribution of \63,000. These arrangements are 15, is listed in section 1 of the 2004 school of a general application and it is not open to my building programme which is published on my Department to depart from them in individual Department’s website at www.education.ie. cases. Tenders for the project were recently received 733 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 734 and it is estimated that the project will go on site a school (details supplied) in County Louth. in June 2004. The project is for a 16 classroom [10584/04] school. When the project is completed, it is anticipated that the new building together with Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. the high quality prefabricated structure currently Dempsey): I have made arrangements for my in place will cater for 700 pupils. officials to investigate the matter to which the Deputy referred and contact will be made with Officials in the school planning section of my the school in question. Department are continually monitoring the demand for primary school places in the Clonee — Ongar area. Mary Mother of Hope NS will Youth Services. continue to be supported with additional 235. Mr. Stanton asked the Minister for temporary accommodation until the permanent Education and Science the schools which the building is in place to ensure that an adequate Minister of State for youth affairs has visited and amount of pupil places is available to meet any intends to visit to discuss young people and emerging demand. politics; the matters raised; the actions the Minister of State intends to take as a result of School Staffing. these meetings; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10655/04] 233. Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for Education and Science the position regarding an Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. application for resource teaching for a person Dempsey): The Minister of State for youth (details supplied) in County Galway; and if he affairs, Deputy de Valera, visited 36 second-level will make a statement on the matter. [10583/04] schools where she met fifth and sixth year students to discuss the theme of “Young People Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. and Politics”. The theme was chosen to promote Dempsey): My Department has received an an interest in EU affairs among young people application from the school to which the Deputy during the Irish EU Presidency. These visits referred on behalf of the pupil in question for presented the young people with an opportunity special educational resources. The school has the to express their views on what being part of services of a full-time resource teacher and a Europe means to them and gave the Minister of shared learning support teacher. SER State the opportunity to present and disseminate applications received between 15 February and information on the importance of the period of 31 August 2003, including the one made by this change that lies ahead and to facilitate them in school, are being considered. More than 5,000 making a real contribution to the debate at such applications were received. Priority was national and European levels. A comprehensive given to cases involving children starting school and wide range of views and suggestions was last September and all these cases were raised during these visits on issues relating, for responded to at or before the commencement of example, to the EU, young people and politics, the current school year. A dedicated team youth participation, concerns of young people, comprising members of my Department’s etc. Deputy de Valera will take these views into inspectorate and the national educational account in future policy expansion and psychological service has reviewed the balance of formulation for young people at national and more than 4,000 applications. These applications EU levels. are being further considered in the context of the outcome of surveys of SER provision conducted The Minister of State visited the following over the past year or so. schools: Larkin community college, Dublin 1; Sacred Heart secondary school, Tullamore, Account is also being taken of the data County Offaly; Rice College, Ennis, County submitted by schools as part of the recent Clare; St. Anne’s community college, Killaloe, nationwide census of SER provision. The County Clare; Presentation secondary school, processing of the applications is a complex and Galway; St. Joseph’s College, Athlone, County time-consuming operation. However, my Westmeath; St. Patrick’s community college, Department is endeavouring to have this Naas, County Kildare; Carlow vocational school, completed as quickly as possible and my officials Carlow; Cola´iste Mhuire, Johnstown, Kilkenny; will then respond to all applicant schools. St. Vincent’s secondary school, Cork; St. Joseph’s Pending a response, schools are advised to refer College, Lucan, County Dublin; St. Vincent’s to circular 24-03, issued in September 2003, which secondary school, Dundalk, County Louth; St. contains practical advice on how to achieve the Joseph’s secondary school, Navan, County most effective deployment of resources already Meath; St. Flannan’s College, Ennis, County allocated for special educational needs within Clare; Mary Immaculate secondary school, the school. Lisdoonvarna, County Clare; Ennis community college, County Clare; Kilrush community school, School Placement. County Clare; St. Thomas’ community college, 234. Mr. Morgan asked the Minister for Bray, County Wicklow; St. Mark’s community Education and Science when a person (details school, Tallaght, Dublin 24; Mercy secondary supplied) in County Louth will obtain a place at school, Tralee, County Kerry; Limerick Senior 735 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 736

[Mr. N. Dempsey.] supplied) that staff and pupils of a school (details College, Limerick; Cola´iste Mhuire, Ennis, supplied) in County Donegal have had to endure County Clare; Shannon comprehensive school, over the past number of years; and the action he County Clare; Loreto Convent, Letterkenny, proposes to take to resolve this disgraceful County Donegal; Summerhill College, Sligo; St. situation. [10898/04] Mary’s secondary school, Ballina, County Mayo; community school, Castlerea, County Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Roscommon; community school, Carrick-on- Dempsey): I propose to take Questions Nos. 238 Shannon, County Leitrim; Beech Hill College, and 256 together. A large-scale building project Monaghan; Cavan vocational school, Cavan; for the school to which the Deputy referred is Mea´n Scoil Muire, Longford Town; vocational listed in section 9 of the 2004 school building school, Thurles, County Tipperary; Portlaoise programme which is published on my vocational school, County Laois; Cola´iste Department’s website at www.education.ie. This Dhu´ laigh, Coolock, Dublin 17; St. Mary’s CBS, project has been assigned a band 3 rating and is Enniscorthy, County Wexford; Our Lady of at early stages of architectural planning. When Mercy secondary school, Waterford. publishing the 2004 school building programme, I outlined that my strategy will be grounded in Summer Works Scheme. capital investment based on multiannual allocations. My officials are reviewing all projects 236. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Minister for which were not authorised to proceed to Education and Science if additional funds for a construction as part of the 2004 school building school (details supplied) will be provided to programme, with a view to including them as part improve the quality of the drinking water in the of a multiannual school building programme from school; if funding will be available for insulation 2005 and I expect to be in a position to make in the school building to provide the installation further announcements on this matter in the of a trip switch in the electrical mains in the course of the year. school and to allow the roof to be repaired and While the school’s application under the the ceiling replaced; and if he will make a summer works scheme for 2004 was unsuccessful statement on the matter. [10656/04] it is open to the school’s management authority Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. to apply for the 2005 summer works scheme when Dempsey): An application for these works was the scheme is announced later this year. All made to my Department’s planning section under applications received for the 2004 summer works the summer works scheme 2004, however the scheme were assessed and categorised by application was unsuccessful. Each unsuccessful reference to the criteria detailed in appendix B of applicant under the summer works scheme 2004 the circular letter governing the scheme: Prim 34- will receive a letter from my Department 03. The available funding was then distributed on outlining the reason why works were not a top-down basis in accordance with the approved. The 2005 scheme will be announced categorisation hierarchy. The purpose of this later this year. approach is to ensure precise targeting of funding. The school authority should use the devolved School Transport. grant which my Department pays annually to deal with any urgent health and safety works. 237. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Education and Science the number of primary, Adult Education. post primary and special needs pupils availing of the school transport service in each year from and 239. Ms O’Sullivan asked the Minister for including 1996 to 1997 for each group; the cost of Education and Science if and when he will meet the service in each year; the parental contribution with the Du´ n Laoghaire branch of the TUI, as in each year; and if he will make a statement on requested, to discuss the capping of student the matter. [10669/04] numbers in the further education sector and the implementation of the recommendations of the Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. McIver report. [10674/04] Dempsey): The information requested by the Deputy is being collated by my Department and Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. will be forwarded to him, as soon as possible. Dempsey): In the current academic year the enrolments on PLC courses in certain schools and Schools Building Projects. colleges have exceeded the number of places approved. Teacher allocations for 2004 and 2005 238. Cecilia Keaveney asked the Minister for and capitation grants have been allocated on the Education and Science the position regarding an basis of the approved number of places or the extension for a school (details supplied) in numbers enrolled. In the 2003 — 2004 academic County Donegal; and if he will make a statement year nearly 28,700 places were approved. My on the matter. [10673/04] Department is considering appeals from the 256. Mr. Crowe asked the Minister for VECs, schools and colleges for the recognition of Education and Science if his attention has been the excess numbers enrolled for the purposes of drawn to the appalling conditions (details teacher allocations and grants and a decision in 737 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 738 the matter will be taken shortly in the light of the Schools Building Projects. totality of demands for teaching resources across 241. Mr. Murphy asked the Minister for the system. At national level, meetings about the Education and Science when sanction will be matter have been held recently between officials given to a school (details supplied) in County and representatives of the management and TUI Cork, to go ahead with works to build staff and interests in the sector. I have no plans to meet visitor toilet facilities under the improvement with the Du´ n Laoghaire branch of the TUI at works scheme. [10719/04] this time. The post-leaving certificate review was Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. commissioned to examine the sector and make Dempsey): Applications for capital funding are prioritised and considered for inclusion in the recommendations as necessary regarding the school building programme. The 2004 school organisational, support, development, technical building programme was published in December and administrative structures and resources 2003 and is available on my Department’s website required in schools with large scale post leaving www.education.ie as are details of the criteria certificate provision. The final report was used in prioritising projects. completed in April, 2003. The recommendations of the report are wide-ranging and encompass 242. Mr. Murphy asked the Minister for proposals that extend beyond PLC provision. The Education and Science the reason behind his \ report poses considerable challenges for the Department’s decision to allocate 250,000 to a shaping of structures for the delivery of further school (details supplied) in County Cork, in view of the fact that the new school, as had been and adult education into the future. Having \ regard to the number and scope of the promised, will now cost in the region of 750,000 recommendations in the report, further and in view of matters (details supplied). [10720/04] consultations with all the relevant interests about prioritisation of the recommendations will be 246. Mr. Murphy asked the Minister for necessary during 2004. Education and Science the position regarding a school (details supplied) in County Cork; and the Teaching Qualifications. date that a review (details supplied) will take place. [10747/04] 240. Mr. O’Shea asked the Minister for Education and Science his proposals to reform Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. the points system in regard to the points required Dempsey): I propose to take Questions Nos. 242 for the higher diploma in education course by and 246 together. granting more points for teaching experience; and The Aghina national school building project if he will make a statement on the matter. was listed in section 4 of the 2003 school building [10718/04] programme which was published on my Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Department’s website at www.education.ie.Itwas planned that this project would be authorised to Dempsey): The Higher Diploma in Education proceed to construction during 2003 subject to (NUI) Applications Centre was founded in 1998 significant cost savings and a review of the to accept applications for admission to enrolment levels later in the year. The school postgraduate courses in the four constituent enrolment had declined significantly over the last universities of the National University of Ireland. number of years. Accordingly, the Department’s The purpose of the centre is to accept and process schools inspector visited the school to ascertain applications centrally for the higher diploma in the enrolment intake in September 2003. The education, in these universities. The Higher enrolment at September 2003 had fallen to 25 Diploma in Education (NUI) Applications pupils. Department officials met with the Centre is agent for, and acts on behalf of, the chairperson and representatives of the board of universities, participating in the application management of the school last December and system and the application regulations, again on 22 March last, to discuss issues relating procedures and timetable are agreed annually by to the proposed school building project. An all-in these universities. Applicants are awarded points grant of \250,000 was offered to the school on the basis on performance in their primary management to address the accommodation degree, any additional relevant academic issue. My Department is considering a response qualifications and teaching experience. received from the school management regarding In the case of Trinity College applicants apply the building project and the proposed grant and directly to the university and places on the higher will be responding to the board shortly. diploma in education course are awarded on the basis of academic qualifications and the results of Schools Amalgamation. a competitive interview process. I have no 243. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for proposals at present to reform the current system Education and Science the position in connection in relation to the selection process for the higher with the proposal to amalgamate a school (details diploma in education programme. supplied) in Dublin 24; if the school authorities 739 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 740

[Mr. R. Bruton.] have on courses and on educational opportunities in question have brought this matter to his for some of the most vulnerable members of attention to date; his views on such a proposal; society; and if he will make a statement on the and if he will make a statement on the matter. matter. [10748/04] [10721/04] Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. 248. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for Dempsey): In the current academic year the Education and Science if his attention has been drawn to a proposal to amalgamate two primary enrolments on PLC courses in certain schools and schools (details supplied) in Dublin 24; his views colleges have exceeded the number of places on this proposal; the process which will be approved by my Department. Teacher allocations followed; the rights which parents have in the for 2004-05 and capitation grants have been matter; if his approval for an ultimate allocated on the basis of the approved number of amalgamation will be necessary; and if he will places or the numbers enrolled. In the 2003-04 make a statement on the matter. [10749/04] academic year nearly 28,700 places were approved. My Department is considering appeals Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. from the VECs, schools and colleges for the Dempsey): I propose to take Questions Nos. 243 recognition of the excess numbers enrolled for and 248 together. the purposes of teacher allocations and grants My Department has been formally notified that and a decision in the matter will be taken shortly the schools to which the Deputies refer are in the light of the totality of demands for teaching exploring the possibility of an amalgamation. The resources across the system. chairperson of the boards of management has confirmed that the parents will be consulted on Question No. 248 answered with Question this issue. Any decision to amalgamate will No. 243. require the formal approval of my Department. Schools Building Projects. Further Education. 249. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for 244. Mr. O´ Fearghaı´l asked the Minister for Education and Science , further to Parliamentary Education and Science the number of students Question No. 317 of 24 February 2004, if he will participating in PLC courses in County Kildare in answer the questions originally posed; if he will the academic year 2003/2004. [10722/04] visit the school, if he will direct an inspector from Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. his Department to investigate the issue; and if he Dempsey): My Department approved 359 PLC will make a statement on the matter. [10764/04] places in respect of schools in County Kildare for Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. the 2003-04 academic year. Statistical returns Dempsey): The Deputy will be aware that my indicate that 334 PLC students were enrolled in Department’s 2004 capital programme has been such schools on 30 September, 2003. published and is available also on my 245. Mr. O´ Fearghaı´l asked the Minister for Department’s website at www.education.ie.On Education and Science if it is the intention of his the basis of the budgetary allocation it was not Department to cap the number of participants in possible to include this project in the list of new PLC programmes for 2004-2005; and if he will projects to commence in 2004. The project will make a statement on the matter. [10723/04] be considered further in the context of the 2005 capital programme. Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Dempsey): Each year, VECs, colleges and Schools Refurbishment. schools are required to forward their proposals 250. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for for the provision of post-leaving certificate Education and Science the applications on hand courses to the Department for approval. My from a school (details supplied) in County Department is receiving applications for approval Kildare, in respect of grant aid for furniture and of PLC places for the 2004-05 academic year. equipment; the details of same; and if he will However, many more applications are expected make a statement on the matter. [10767/04] in the course of April 2004. Decisions in the matter of the management of PLC places will be Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. taken later this year in the light of all demands for Dempsey): In addition to the grant aid for the courses and teaching resources across the system. construction of a new eight classroom school, including a double autistic unit for North Kildare Question No. 246 answered with Question Educate Together school my Department has No. 242. also provided \6,500 for furniture and equipment 247. Mr. Costello asked the Minister for in the school’s newly established autistic unit. Education and Science the reason he has capped Grant aid in the amount of \15,638.19 for the number of PLC student places for each school furniture and equipment in the school was issued college for 2003-2004; if his attention has been to the board of management of the school on 13 drawn to the negative effects this capping will January 2004. 741 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 742

Schools Building Projects. needed in the educational system as a whole in order to meet the needs of children in both 251. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for primary and post-primary schools. In 1998, there Education and Science the action being taken by were found to be 16 psychologists working in the the OPW in regard to actively seeking the city and county of Dublin vocational education acquisition of a site for the new school to replace committees and in the schools for young a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; and offenders, leaving a final total of 184 to be if he will make a statement on the matter. deployed within the national educational [10768/04] psychological service. Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. The Government accepted the findings of the Dempsey): The property management section of planning group and recruitment for NEPS began the OPW, which acts on behalf of my in 1999. At present there are 126 psychologists Department in regard to site acquisitions, is in NEPS. Four more psychologists will take up currently exploring the possibility of acquiring a employment after Easter 2004, and my site for Kill national school, Kill, County Kildare. Department is currently processing one more Due to the commercial sensitivities of site offer of employment to be taken up as soon as acquisitions, it is not proposed at this stage to possible. identify specific sites to be acquired. However, this information will be placed on my Schools Building Projects. Department’s website when the relevant acquisitions have been completed. 254. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Education and Science if a costing has been School Accommodation. estimated on the required extension to a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; if so, the 252. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for amount involved; if the project can be included Education and Science if agreement has been for consideration for funding from the secondary reached in regard to the provision of additional contingency fund if funds are available and accommodation at a school (details supplied) in unspent and from sums which might not be County Kildare; and if he will make a statement expended from the secondary sites fund; and if he on the matter. [10769/04] will make a statement on the matter. [10773/04] Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Dempsey): I am pleased to advise the Deputy Dempsey): A large-scale building project for that provision was made for additional Maynooth post-primary school, Moyglare Road, accommodation to be provided at Naas CBS as County Kildare, is listed in section 9 of the 2004 part of my recent announcement of an additional capital programme. \ 30 million investment in school buildings. The The proposed extension consists of 1836 m2 for school has accepted the schedule of a long-term projected enrolment figure of 850 accommodation to be provided. pupils. It is not possible to release the estimated Officials from my Department are currently costings for the project as its disclosure could liaising with the school and its design team in prejudice the tender outcome and could result in regard to the design and delivery of this financial loss to the Department. accommodation. This project is at stage three of architectural planning which involves a detailed sketch scheme Psychological Service. detailing room layouts, etc. It has been assigned 253. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for a band three rating by the Department in Education and Science the number of educational accordance with the published criteria for psychologists needed to be employed by the prioritising large-scale projects. NEPS to ensure that all primary school children The contingency fund is used for unforeseen receive a service which they require; the net emergencies that arise during the year and cannot number of additional educational psychologists be used to advance a building project. which will be employed in 2004; and if he will The budget announcement regarding make a statement on the matter. [10770/04] multiannual capital envelopes will enable me to adopt a multiannual framework for the school Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. building programme which in turn will give Dempsey): In 1998, a planning group greater clarity regarding projects that are not representative of all the partners in education progressing to tender in this year’s programme, produced a report for my Department entitled A including Maynooth post-primary school. I will National Educational Psychological Service. The make a further announcement in that regard planning group examined staffing levels of during the year. educational psychology services in other jurisdictions and also investigated the likely Special Educational Needs. prevalence of problems for school children that would need psychological intervention. 255. Ms O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Arising from its investigations, the planning Education and Science if and when he will group estimated that 200 psychologists would be respond to the application for emergency funding 743 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 744

[Ms O’Sullivan.] the Deputy, including an application for the pupil for a school (details supplied) in County Donegal in question. to install a lift for a person (details supplied) who SER applications received between 15 uses a wheelchair and whose class will be situated February and 31 August 2003 are being upstairs next year; and if he will make a statement considered at present. In all, more than 5,000 on the matter. [10887/04] such applications were received. Priority was Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. given to cases involving children starting school Dempsey): An application under the summer last September and all of these cases were works scheme was received from the school responded to before or soon after the referred to by the Deputy. commencement of the current school year. All applications received were assessed and The balance of more than 4,000 applications categorised by reference to the criteria detailed has been reviewed by a dedicated team in appendix B of the circular letter governing the comprising members of my Department’s scheme — Prim 34/03. The available funding was inspectorate and the national educational then distributed on a top down basis in psychological service. These applications are accordance with the categorisation hierarchy. The being further considered in the context of the purpose of this approach is to ensure precise outcome of surveys of SER provision conducted targeting of funding. over the past year or so. Account is also being While the school’s application under the taken of the data submitted by schools as part of summer works scheme for 2004 was unsuccessful the recent nationwide census of SER provision. it is open to the school’s management authority The processing of the applications is a complex to apply for the 2005 summer works scheme when and time consuming operation. However, my the scheme is announced later this year. Department is endeavouring to have this The school authority should ensure that the completed as quickly as possible and my officials class is appropriately situated to enable the will then respond to all applicant schools. person to participate fully in school activities and Pending a response, schools are advised to refer to use the devolved grant which is paid annually to circular 24/03, which issued in September, by my Department to deal with any urgent health 2003. This circular contains practical advice on and safety works. how to achieve the most effective deployment of resources already allocated for special Question No. 256 answered with Question educational needs within the school. No. 238. The arrangements for processing applications received after the 31 August 2003, will be School Transport. considered in the context of the outcome of 257. Mr. Ellis asked the Minister for Education discussions on a weighted system of allocation of and Science if his Department will provide school resource teaching support. A further transport for persons (details supplied) in County communication will be sent to schools in this Leitrim on the new route proposed by Bus regard. E´ ireann to his Department four months ago. [10900/04] Industrial Disputes. Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. 259. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for Dempsey): Bus E´ ireann forwarded details of a Communications, Marine and Natural Resources proposed new route to cater for families referred the reason 800 An Post workers are still to in the details supplied by the Deputy. suspended; and the action he is taking to resolve As there are an insufficient number of eligible this dispute. [10514/04] pupils offering for transport from the area, it is not open to my Department, under the terms of Minister for Communications, Marine and the school transport scheme, to sanction a new Natural Resources (Mr. D. Ahern): I understand route as requested. that talks commenced today between An Post management and the CWU under the auspices of Special Educational Needs. the LRC to find a solution to the IR issues and to set out a basis on which An Post can be 258. Mr. Crawford asked the Minister for restructured and return to profitability with a Education and Science the steps being taken to view to providing sustainable employment for provide a resource teacher to help with the needs employees and high quality services to of a person (details supplied) in County consumers. In addition, normal working has Monaghan; when the service will be provided; recommenced in the Dublin mail centre and all and if he will make a statement on the matter. suspended staff have been reinstated. [10901/04] With regard to the 91 temporary staff who had Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. their contracts terminated as a result of the Dempsey): I can confirm that my Department has dispute, I have been informed that the company received applications for special educational expects that they will be reinstated this week resources, SER, from the school referred to by when mail services return to normal. 745 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 746

Harbours and Piers. contract documents for these projects are under consideration in my Department. 260. Mr. Haughey asked the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources Sports Capital Programme. if he has received a request from a club (details supplied) for the lease of a small premises at 264. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Arts, Howth Harbour in order to store its equipment; Sport and Tourism if he will allocate funding the position in this regard; and if he will make a under a lottery grant for a club (details supplied) statement on the matter. [10577/04] in County Mayo. [10553/04] Minister for Communications, Marine and Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Natural Resources (Mr. D. Ahern): A request for O’Donoghue): The national lottery-funded sports a small premises at Howth fishery harbour centre capital programme, which is administered by my was received in my Department and Department, allocates funding to sporting and acknowledged on 11 February 2004. At present, community organisations at local, regional and no suitable properties are available at the national level throughout the country. The harbour. programme is advertised on an annual basis. The 2004 sports capital programme was Fisheries Protection. advertised in the national newspapers on November 30 and 1 December 2003. The closing 261. Mr. Morgan asked the Minister for date for receipt of applications was January 16 Communications, Marine and Natural Resources 2004. A total of 1,304 applications were received further to Parliamentary Question No. 99 of 25 before the closing date, including one from the March 2004, the policing measures that are in organisation in question. All applications are place on Carlingford Lough in regard to currently being evaluated against the aquaculture; the measures that are proposed to programme’s assessment criteria, which are prevent unauthorised shellfish removals; and outlined in the guidelines, terms and conditions when these will be implemented. [10578/04] of the programme. I intend to announce the grant Minister for Communications, Marine and allocations for the programme as soon as possible Natural Resources (Mr. D. Ahern): As previously after the assessment process has been completed. outlined to the House, all movements of bivalve molluscs, including mussels, for relaying Departmental Bodies. purposes, must be authorised with a view to the 265. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, control of animal disease and the protection of Sport and Tourism the number of bodies or human health. agencies which report directly to him or his The Department’s fisheries inspectorate Department or are funded by him; the degree to monitors activity both from land and, as the need which they are influenced by his Department in arises, at sea. In addition, operators are required regard to policy; and if he will make a statement to complete a shellfish gatherers logbook which on the matter. [10877/04] records, among other information, both the amount of shellfish taken and the location from Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. where it was taken. Documentary checks are also O’Donoghue): Details of bodies and agencies carried out on this aspect of the control reporting directly to and funded by my procedures. Department are set out in the attached appendix. As I informed the house recently, my The policy framework and the necessary Department has received allegations of funding are provided by my Department to unauthorised movement of shellfish and is enable the bodies and agencies under its aegis to currently carrying out an investigation into these carry out their functions in the context of allegations. Once this investigation is completed, achieving the effective delivery of overall consideration can be given as to whether any government policy. My Department’s Statement revision of the existing control procedures is of Strategy 2003-2005, which is available in the required. Oireachtas Library and on my Department’s website, articulates the Department’s mission, Swimming Pool Projects. high level goals and strategies aimed at the implementation of Government policy in regard 263. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Arts, to the three sectors for which my Department has Sport and Tourism if he will approve the contract responsibility. This is in turn used by bodies and documents for the refurbishment of a swimming agencies under the aegis of my Department as a pool (details supplied) in County Kildare; and if basis for their more detailed interpretation of he will make a statement on the matter. their role in this regard. [10508/04] The statement of strategy also identifies Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. specific outcomes, outputs, and performance O’Donoghue): Kildare County Council has indicators against which policy delivery is applied for grant aid under the local authority measured, with progress reported in my swimming pool programme for the replacement Department’s annual report. These reflect the of swimming pools in both Naas and Athy. The roles played by the relevant bodies and agencies 747 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 748

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] \30.75 million for 2004, of which \29 million is which are monitored through ongoing liaison funded through the national lottery to the ISC for with these bodies and agencies. My Department’s the implementation of the policies and first annual report, is expected to be published in programmes established to deliver on three major April 2004, and will record satisfactory progress strategies: increased participation; developing towards the achievement of the goals set out in performance and achieving excellence. the statement of strategy. In the performance of their functions, these Arts Policy. agencies are required to have referred to 267. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, Government policy and to comply with any Sport and Tourism if it is his policy to promote general policy directives which may from time to any particular forms of art in the future; and if he time be given to them by the Minister. will make a statement on the matter. [10879/04] Appendix — cultural institutions: the Chester Beatty Library, the National Concert Hall, the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Irish Museum of Modern Art; arts: the Arts O’Donoghue): I refer the Deputy to my reply to Council, the Irish Film Board, the Interim Music a question of Tuesday, 18 November 2003, which Board of Ireland; sport: the Irish Sports Council, sets out the position with specific reference to Horse Racing Ireland, Bord na gCon, Campus 2004. I will assess the longer-term position in light Stadium Ireland Development Limited; tourism: of the circumstances applying at any relevant Fa´ilte Ireland, Shannon Development — tourism time. remit, Tourism Ireland Limited. Question No. 268 answered with Question Sports Capital Programme. No. 170.

266. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, Decentralisation Programme. Sport and Tourism if he expects to be in a position to offer grant aid or other financial 269. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, assistance to voluntary groups or agencies in 2004 Sport and Tourism the progress in the from proceeds of the national lottery; and if he implementation of his Department’s will make a statement on the matter. [10878/04] decentralisation programme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10882/04] Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): The national lottery-funded sports Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. capital programme, which is administered by my O’Donoghue): Following the announcement in Department, allocates funding to sporting clubs the 2004 budget of the decentralisation and organisations and to voluntary and programme, a decentralisation committee was community organisations at local, regional and established within my Department which is national level throughout the country. The currently planning the decentralisation programme is advertised on an annual basis. programme in respect of the Department in The 2004 sports capital programme was liaison with the central implementation advertised in the national newspapers on 30 committee set up under the Department of November and 1 December 2003. The closing Finance. The three agencies, Fa´ilte Ireland, the date for receipt of applications was 16 January Arts Council and the Irish Sports Council, also 2004. A total of 1,304 applications were received due to decentralise, are represented on this before the closing date and these are currently committee. being evaluated against the programme’s My Department’s committee, which is headed assessment criteria, which are outlined in the by an assistant secretary, has met on several guidelines, terms and conditions of the occasions and has issued a circular letter to staff programme. I intend to announce the grant of the Department in order to keep staff fully allocations for the 2004 programme as soon as briefed on developments. An officer from my possible after the assessment process has been Department also attends the decentralisation completed. liaison committee chaired by a principal officer My Department’s Estimates for 2004 provide from the Department of Finance. As Minister, I \63.6 million for payment of capital grants in am driving the implementation of the programme respect of the grants to be allocated in 2004 and in the Department and reporting on a regular for those allocated in previous years for which basis to the Cabinet sub-committee. funding had not been drawn down in full to date My Department is in close contact with the but would be during 2004. Office of Public Works in regard to the issue of In addition, my Department funds the Irish securing suitable accommodation for the Sports Council, ISC, the statutory body with Department and the Sports Council in Killarney, responsibility for the development of sport, for Fa´ilte Ireland in Mallow and for the Arts increasing participation at all levels and raising Council in Kilkenny. I understand that a shortlist standards. Funding for sports and recreation of sites and buildings has been drawn up. Further organisations is provided through the ISC. The meetings are planned between officials of the financial provision for the ISC from my OPW, my Department and of representatives of Department’s Estimates was increased by 9% to the three agencies. 749 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 750

My Department has also sought up-to-date orthodontic services is currently severely information from the local authorities in the three restricted in some health boards due to the locations in order to prepare information packs limited availability of trained specialist clinical on the locations for staff who express an interest staff to assess and treat patients. However, I am in moving to these locations. Furthermore, the pleased to advise the Deputy that I have taken a Secretary General of my Department met with number of measures to address the shortage of the manager and town clerk for Killarney on a specialists and so increase the treatment capacity recent visit there. The decentralisation committee of the orthodontic service on a national basis. also plans a visit to the location. The grade of specialist in orthodontics has been I understand that the central implementation created in the health board orthodontic service. committee, chaired by Mr. Phil Flynn, which was In 2003, my Department and the health boards charged with preparing and submitting an overall funded 13 dentists from various health boards for implementation plan by the end of March to the specialist in orthodontics qualifications at training Cabinet sub-committee has met its deadline. The programmes in Ireland and at three separate plan will influence and inform my Department’s universities in the United Kingdom. These preparations for decentralisation and will give trainees for the public orthodontic service are some information in regard to timelines, etc. additional to the six dentists who commenced their training in 2001. Thus, there is an aggregate Question No. 270 answered with Question of 19 dentists in specialist training for No. 157. orthodontics. These measures will complement the other structural changes being introduced Question No. 271 answered with Question into the orthodontic service, including the No. 159. creation of an auxiliary grade of orthodontic therapist to work in the orthodontic area. Question No. 272 answered with Question Furthermore, the commitment of the No. 142. Department to training development is manifested in the funding provided to both the Question No. 273 answered with Question training of specialist clinical staff and the No. 155. recruitment of a professor in orthodontics for the Cork Dental School. This appointment at the Health Board Services. school will facilitate the development of an approved training programme leading to 274. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for specialist qualification in orthodontics. The chief Health and Children the number of persons executive officer of the Southern Health Board waiting for orthodontic treatment; the reasons for has reported that the professor commenced duty the long delay in providing such treatment; his on 1 December 2003. In recognition of the plans to eliminate this waiting time; and if he will importance of this post at Cork Dental School, make a statement on the matter. [10462/04] my Department has given approval in principle Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): to a proposal from the school to further The provision of orthodontic services is a matter substantially improve the training facilities there for the health boards-authority in the first for orthodontics. This project should see the instance. The aim of my Department is to construction of a large orthodontic unit and develop the treatment capacity of orthodontics in support facilities. It will ultimately support an a sustainable way over the longer term. Given the enhanced teaching and treatment service to the potential level of demand for orthodontic wider region under the leadership of the services, the provision of those services will professor of orthodontics. continue to be based, as happens under the Orthodontic initiative funding of \4.698 million existing guidelines, on prioritisation of cases was provided to the health boards-authority in based on treatment need. 2001 and this has enabled health boards to recruit The guidelines were issued in 1985. They are additional staff, engage the services of private intended to enable health boards to identify in specialist orthodontic practitioners to treat a consistent way those in greatest need and to patients and build additional orthodontic commence timely treatment for them. Patients in facilities. In June 2002, my Department provided category A require immediate treatment and additional funding of \5 million from the include those with congenital abnormalities of the treatment purchase fund to health boards- jaws, such as cleft lip and palate, and patients authority specifically for the purchase of with major skeletal discrepancies between the orthodontic treatment. This funding is enabling sizes of the jaws. Patients in category B have less boards to provide both additional sessions for severe problems than category A patients and are existing staff and purchase treatment from placed on the orthodontic treatment waiting list. private specialist orthodontic practitioners. The The number of cases treated is dependent on the chief executive officers of the boards-authority level of resources available, in terms of qualified have informed my Department of the following staff, in the area, and this is reflected in the information on their treatment waiting lists at the treatment waiting list. The provision of end of December 2003: 751 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 752

[Mr. Martin.]

Treatment Waiting Lists

Health Board Category A Category B

South Western Area 644 474 East Coast Area 52 148 Northern Area 45 2,220 Midland Nil 210 Mid-Western Nil 642 North Eastern 9 278 North Western 156 638 South Eastern Nil 644 Southern Nil 3,301 Western Nil 759

The chief executive officers of the health boards- to this person’s family; when the family can authority have informed my Department that at expect to receive a copy of same; and if he will the end of the December quarter 2003, there make a statement on the matter. [10465/04] were 21,727 children receiving orthodontic treatment in the public orthodontic service. This Minister of State at the Department of Health means that there are over twice as many children and Children (Mr. B. Lenihan): Responsibility in receiving orthodontic treatment as there are respect of the matter referred to by the Deputy children waiting to be treated and 4,432 extra rests with the Western Health Board. children are getting treatment from health Accordingly, my Department has asked the chief boards-authority since the end of 2001. executive officer of the board to reply to the Deputy directly. Health Board Staff. 275. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Health Hospitals Building Programme. and Children his plans to replace an orthodontist 278. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Health in Merlin Park Hospital; and the number of staff and Children the funding provided by his employed in the orthodontic treatment Department for the hospital refurbishment in department in Galway. [10463/04] Birr, County Offaly; the number of beds available Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): in the hospital; the number of employees in the The recruitment and management of orthodontic hospital; and if he will make a statement on the staff in the Western Health Board is the statutory matter. [10466/04] responsibility of the chief executive officer. My Minister of State at the Department of Health Department has, therefore, asked the chief and Children (Mr. Callely): I presume the Deputy executive officer to provide the Deputy with the is referring to the new Birr community nursing information in respect of personnel in the unit on which I am delighted to indicate good orthodontic service as requested. progress. A new 90-bed community nursing unit is being provided in Birr, County Offaly, at an Health Board Services. overall projected sum in the region of \22 million, 276. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Health which includes site acquisition, construction, and Children the position of a person (details equipping, fees and any other associated costs. supplied) in County Mayo on the orthodontic Issues relating to the appropriate levels of staff treatment waiting list; when they will be called for the new unit are the subject of ongoing for treatment; and if they can be sent for discussion between the Midland Health Board treatment under the national treatment purchase and staff representatives. I am, however, hopeful fund. [10464/04] that these discussions can be completed at an early date, so that the Midland Health Board can Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): proceed with the opening of the unit. Responsibility for the provision of orthodontic treatment to eligible persons in County Mayo Health Reform Programme. rests with the Western Health Board. My Department has asked the chief executive officer 279. Mr. Sherlock asked the Minister for to investigate the matter raised by the Deputy Health and Children if Statutory Instrument No. and to reply to him directly. 90 of 2004 (details supplied) will be implemented; and the effect the statutory instrument will have 277. Dr. Cowley asked the Minister for Health on the Health Act 1970. [10467/04] and Children if the full file held by the Western Health Board in respect of a person (details Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): supplied) in County Mayo can be made available I signed the Interim Health Service Executive 753 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 754

(Establishment) Order 2004 (S.I. No. 90 of 2004) of the distinction between reserved and executive on 9 March 2004 and it was laid before the functions and the assignment of reserved Houses of the Oireachtas on 10 March. The order functions of the Authority, the area health boards established the Interim Health Service Executive and the health boards to the chief executive — the interim executive — as a corporate body officers and the Minister for Health and Children, under the Health (Corporate Bodies) Act 1961, as appropriate, and amendments to the Health as amended. Acts 1947 to 2001 to implement these proposals. The establishment of the interim executive is a I expect to be in a position to publish this Bill critically important part of the implementation of shortly. the health sector reform programme. The reform programme, which is based on recommendations Hospital Waiting Lists. in the Brennan and Prospectus reports, will 280. Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Minister introduce fundamental changes in the health for Health and Children if arrangements will be services. One of the primary features is the made for a person (details supplied) in County abolition of the existing health boards and the Donegal to be admitted to the National Eastern Regional Health Authority to be Rehabilitation Centre in Du´ n Laoghaire. replaced by a Health Service Executive. [10481/04] Under the establishment order, the interim executive has been given the task of drawing up Minister of State at the Department of Health a plan for the Minister’s approval for: the and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): My Department establishment of a unified management structure has made inquiries into this matter and the for the proposed new health service executive; National Rehabilitation Hospital has recently the integration of the existing health board confirmed that the individual in question is on its structures into the new health service executive; waiting list and that it is not possible at this time the streamlining of other statutory bodies, to indicate when the individual will be admitted. identified in the Prospectus report, to be The Deputy will appreciate that the scheduling incorporated in the new structure; the of admission to the hospital is a matter for the establishment of regional boundaries for the consultant concerned and is determined solely on delivery of primary, community and continuing the basis of medical priority. care services; the establishment of procedures to Registration of Health Professionals. develop a national service plan for the delivery of health services; the establishment of appropriate 281. Mr. Connolly asked the Minister for structures and procedures to ensure the proper Health and Children if the status of practising governance and accountability arrangements for physical therapists will be maintained in the proposed health service executive; and the legislation being prepared for the regulation and appointment of a chief executive officer. supervision of the health and social care The interim executive has also been given the professions; and if he will make a statement on task of making the necessary preparations to the matter. [10482/04] implement this plan, subject to ministerial Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): approval, so as to ensure as smooth a transition Action 105 of the health strategy commits my as possible from the existing health board Department to strengthening and expanding structure to the new health service executive provisions for statutory registration of health structure. The interim executive will not have any professionals. In this context, the health and implications for the current statutory role of the social care professionals Bill, establishing this health boards and Eastern Regional Health system of statutory registration for health and Authority. social care professionals, is currently being I will be bringing forward primary legislation at drafted by the Office of the Parliamentary a later date which will provide the main Counsel. legislative basis for the implementation of the Under the Bill, it is proposed that certain titles health sector reform programme. It will establish will be protected, that is, only those professionals the new health service executive to replace the registered with a registration board will be legally Eastern Regional Health Authority and the entitled to use the protected titles. It is also health boards. It will also provide the legislative proposed that it will be an offence under the basis for other aspects of the reform programme, legislation for an unregistered person to use a such as improved governance and accountability, protected title. While certain common titles will planning and monitoring and evaluation. The be protected in the health and social care establishment of the health information and professionals Bill, the Minister for Health and quality authority, HIQA, on a legislative basis Children will be empowered to protect additional will also be provided for. titles by regulation. As part of the phased implementation of the In drafting the legislation, further advice and reform programme, I also intend to bring forward examination will be required of the many legislation dealing with the membership of the complex legal, competition and public interest Eastern Regional Health Authority, the area issues that arise under the Bill, including in health boards and the health boards, the abolition respect of protection of title. To this end, the 755 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 756

[Mr. Martin.] Hospital, Kilkenny; if an appointment for them Deputy may wish to note that my Department with a paediatrician will be expedited; if there is commissioned the Institute of Public a waiting list for such a service; the steps he is Administration in June of last year to undertake taking to resolve the issue; and if he will make a a study to elucidate various issues raised in the statement on the matter. [10520/04] representations made to me concerning the case for and against protection of the title “physical Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): therapist.” This report has now been completed Responsibility for the provision of services at St. and forwarded to stakeholders for their views. Luke’s Hospital, Kilkenny is, in the first instance, a matter for the South Eastern Health Board. My Medical Cards. Department has, therefore, asked the chief 282. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for executive officer of the South Eastern Health Health and Children , further to Parliamentary Board to investigate the matter and reply to the Question No. 361 of 10 February 2004, if a Deputy directly. response to the query will be expedited. 286. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for [10495/04] Health and Children the reason for the delay in Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): having a cataract removed in the case of a person Responsibility for the provision of a medical card (details supplied) in County Kilkenny; the reason is, by legislation, a matter for the chief executive the operation promised in January 2004 has been officer of the relevant health board-authority. I postponed; and if he will make a statement on the understand that the Deputy raised this matter matter. [10521/04] previously in a parliamentary question last February and was advised that the CEO of the Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): South Eastern Health Board would investigate Responsibility for the provision of services for the matter raised and reply directly to him. My people resident in County Kilkenny is, in the first Department has made further enquiries with the instance, a matter for the South Eastern Health CEO of the health board and have been advised Board. My Department has, therefore, asked the that the matter raised is still under investigation. chief executive officer of the South Eastern Health Board to investigate the matter and reply Hospital Waiting Lists. to the Deputy directly. 283. Mr. P. McGrath asked the Minister for 287. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for Health and Children the average number of Health and Children if a bed can be provided at patients listed for long-term care for each of the Castlecomer Hospital, Kilkenny, for a person past five years; and the most up-to-date statistics (details supplied) in County Kilkenny in view of for this year in hospitals (details supplied). the exceptional circumstances of their case. [10504/04] [10522/04] Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): The information requested by the Deputy is not Minister of State at the Department of Health routinely collected by my Department. My and Children (Mr. Callely): As the Deputy will Department has, therefore, asked the regional be aware, the provision of health services in the chief executive of the Eastern Regional Health Kilkenny area is, in the first instance, the Authority to compile the information requested responsibility of the South Eastern Health Board. by the Deputy and to forward it to him directly. My Department has, therefore, asked the chief 284. Mr. P. McGrath asked the Minister for executive of the board to investigate the matter Health and Children the waiting period that raised by the Deputy and reply to him directly as exists at Mullingar General Hospital for children a matter of urgency. to be attended to in the ears, nose and throat 288. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for clinic; the number of children who are on this Health and Children the reason for the delay in waiting list; and the action he proposes to take to providing a bed at St. Luke’s Hospital, Kilkenny, alleviate the unacceptable delays. [10506/04] for a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny; if this person’s case can be expedited Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): in view of the urgency of the matter and of the Responsibility for the provision of services at the case being made by their general practitioner; and Midland Regional Hospital at Mullingar rests the action he is taking to reduce the waiting list with the Midland Health Board. My Department in this area. [10523/04] has, therefore, asked the chief executive officer of the board to investigate the matter raised by Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): the Deputy and reply to him directly. Responsibility for the provision of services at St. 285. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for Luke’s Hospital, Kilkenny is, in the first instance, Health and Children the reason for the delay in a matter for the South Eastern Health Board. My arranging an appointment for a person (details Department has, therefore, asked the chief supplied) in County Kilkenny at St. Luke’s executive officer of the South Eastern Health 757 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 758

Board to investigate the matter and reply to the matter raised by the Deputy and reply to him Deputy directly. directly. Departmental Funding. Medical Cards. 290. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for Health and Children the breakdown by health board of 289. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for the spending on suicide prevention and research Health and Children if an application for a in 2002, 2003 and 2004. [10533/04] medical card in the case of a person (details Minister of State at the Department of Health supplied) in County Kilkenny will be and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): Since the expedited. [10532/04] publication of the report of the national task force on suicide in 1998, a cumulative total of Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): more than \17.5 million has been provided Responsibility for the provision of a medical card towards suicide prevention and for research. This is, by legislation, a matter for the chief executive includes an additional \1.110 million in 2002 and officer of the relevant health board-authority. My a further \655,000 in 2003. A breakdown of the Department has therefore asked the CEO of the allocation of this additional funding by health South Eastern Health Board to investigate the board for the years 2002 and 2003 is as follows:

Board 2002 2003

\m \m ERHA 0.127 0.150 Midland Health Board 0.000 0.050 Mid-Western Health Board 0.063 0.050 North-Eastern Health Board 0.121 0.050 North-Western Health Board 0.070 0.050 South-Eastern Health Board 0.127 0.050 Southern Health Board* 0.254 0.050 Western Health Board* 0.348 0.205

Total 1.110 0.655 *Includes funding for: the National Suicide Review Group, the National Suicide Research Foundation and the Irish Association of Suicidology.

This year more than \4.5 million is available to and Children the percentage of the health budget the various agencies working towards reducing for 2004 which is allocated to the psychiatric the level of suicide and attempted suicide in this services. [10534/04] country. This includes the health boards, the national suicide review group, the Irish Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): The Estimate Association of Suicidology and the National \ Suicide Research Foundation. A breakdown of for mental health expenditure in 2004 is 661.35 the total funding available to each health board million, or 6.69% of the total health budget, this year is as follows: according to the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2004. Board 2004 In recent years, significant additional resources have been committed to developing \m comprehensive, community-based mental health ERHA 0.672 services. This has resulted in a continuing decline in the number of in-patients from 5,192 in 1997 Midland Health Board 0.386 to 3,966 in 2002 with a corresponding increase in Mid-Western Health Board 0.215 the provision of a range of care facilities based in North-Eastern Health Board 0.437 the community to complement in-patient North-Western Health Board 0.310 services. There are now 411 community South-Eastern Health Board 0.450 psychiatric residences in the country providing Southern Health Board* 0.875 3,146 places compared to 391 residences Western Health Board* 1.188 providing 2,878 places in 1997. Since 1997, approximately \90 million Total 4.533 additional revenue funding has been invested in the mental health services. In the main, this *Includes funding for: the national suicide review group, the funding is being used to provide additional National Suicide Research Foundation and the Irish Association of Suicidology. medical and health professional staff for expanding community mental health services, Mental Health Services. increase child and adolescent services, expand the old age psychiatric services, provide liaison 291. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for Health 759 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 760

[Mr. T. O’Malley.] is available in respect of approved courses at psychiatry services in general hospitals and undergraduate and postgraduate level in other enhance the support provided to voluntary EU member states. agencies. In recent years, the UK authorities introduced a number of changes in the financial support Nursing Education. arrangements for students pursuing courses at 292. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for Health further and higher education institutions. This and Children if, in view of the shortage of nursing included the introduction of an annual tuition fee staff and the limited intake for student nursing for students entering further and higher placement in the State, there is assistance education institutions for the first time from the available to students to complete nurse training 1998-99 academic year and the replacement of courses in Britain. [10535/04] maintenance grants by student loans to be phased in from that year also. All EU students, including Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): those from Ireland, are eligible for grant In addressing the issue of nursing staff shortages, assistance towards the tuition fee, subject to the I refer the Deputy to the latest quarterly survey same conditions as apply to UK students. of nursing vacancies by the Health Service Employers Agency, HSEA, which is for the year Health Board Services. ending 31 December 2003. The survey shows that 293. Mr. McCormack asked the Minister for there were 994 extra nurses employed in the Health and Children his plans for the health service in the year ending 31 December appointment of a second consultant 2003. It also indicates that the vacancy rate now rheumatologist to the Western Health Board; if stands at 1.73% nationally, which is the lowest his attention has been drawn to the fact that there rate recorded since the surveys began. Moreover, is a four year waiting list for arthritis services in the current vacancy rate of 1.73% could be the Western Health Board area; and if he will considered to be a normal frictional rate, given make a statement on the matter. [10536/04] that there will always be some level of movement due to resignations, retirements and nurses Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): availing of opportunities to change employment The expansion of existing rheumatology services and location. is initially a matter for the Western Health Board, In 1997, there were 25,233 whole-time based on relative priority accorded to the service equivalent nurses employed in the public health by the board and in the light of available funding. system. By the end of September 2003 this figure The funding allocated by Government to the had reached 33,442. This is an increase of over health services in 2004 is designed to maintain the 8,200 during the period or 32.5%. These figures existing level of service in overall terms. The highlight the effectiveness of the measures which economic position in 2004 is reflected in the the Government has undertaken in recent years approach taken by the Government to spending regarding the recruitment and retention of Estimates in the health sector. The overall nurses. Among the most significant of these pattern in the health service is one of measures is the increase in the number of nursing consolidation in 2004, this follows a number of training places by 70% since 1998. There are now years of rapid expansion and development of a total of 1,640 undergraduate training places per services. As the Deputy is aware, there has been annum. This increase in training places will significant additional investment in acute hospital ensure a high and steady number of nursing services in the Western Health Board in recent graduates entering the health service in the years. future. The board has prepared a strategic plan for the I have made inquiries of my colleague, the development of rheumatology services in the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel region which proposes the appointment of Dempsey, in respect of financial assistance for additional rheumatologists in the region. I agree students undertaking nurse training courses in the that there is a need for additional investment in UK. Under his Department’s higher education rheumatology services both in the west and in grant scheme, maintenance grants are available other regions. However, the question of funding to eligible students pursuing approved for additional posts in the west may only be undergraduate courses in other EU member considered in the context of available resources states, including the UK. In general, approved and the Western Health Board’s overall priorities courses are those pursued in a third level for services in 2004 in the acute hospital sector. institution which is maintained or assisted by Comhairle na nOspide´al, which is the statutory recurrent grants from public funds. body with responsibility for regulating the Students attending approved courses in other number and type of appointments of consultant EU member states are subject to the same medical staff in hospitals providing services under conditions of funding as students attending the Health Acts, carried out a review of approved courses in the relevant State. The main rheumatology and rehabilitation services in 1995 conditions of funding relate to age, residence, and, in the context of this, is currently examining means, nationality and previous academic the Irish Society of Rheumatology, ISR, report, attainment. In addition, tax relief on tuition fees rheumatology manpower report 2002, which 761 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 762 examines the current state of rheumatology Health Board Services. services and identifies the resources needed to 297. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for Health develop this service. Future planning and Children when orthodontic treatment will be requirements will be considered by myself and made available to a person (details supplied) in my Department in the context of the Comhairle County Limerick. [10590/04] examination. Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): 294. Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Minister for Responsibility for the provision of orthodontic Health and Children the criteria used by the treatment to eligible persons in County Limerick health boards in the appointment of persons to rests with the Mid-Western Health Board. My co-ordinate the home help services; and if he will Department has asked the chief executive officer make a statement on the matter. [10539/04] to investigate the matter raised by the Deputy and reply to him directly. Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Mr. Callely): The information Nursing Education. sought by the Deputy is not readily available in my Department. My Department has written to 298. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for the chief executive officers of the Eastern Health and Children the entry requirements for Regional Health Authority and the health boards courses for a higher diploma in nursing care; his and asked them to supply me with the relevant views on the concern among many nurses with details, which will be forwarded to the Deputy as substantial experience, whose initial qualification a matter of urgency. did not involve a course at degree level, who fear that their opportunity to progress to higher Hospital Services. training levels will be prejudiced; and if he will introduce arrangements whereby an accreditation 295. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for system gives equal recognition to practical Health and Children if a feasibility study has been experience for the purposes of access to higher undertaken to assess the possibility of converting qualifications. [10591/04] St. Bricin’s Military Hospital to use as a civilian step-down facility; the current bed capacity of St. Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): Bricin’s; the current in-patient occupancy rate of I presume the Deputy is referring to higher its capacity; and if he will make a statement on diploma courses in oncology, accident and the matter. [10547/04] emergency, intensive care, coronary care and so on. Entry requirements for these courses vary Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): from college to college. All colleges require St. Bricin’s Hospital is funded by the Department applicants to have registration in the relevant of Defence and, accordingly, the statistical division of the nursing register maintained by An information requested by the Deputy is not held Bord Altranais. Most courses require candidates by my Department. to satisfy certain minimum experience The issue of converting St. Bricin’s to use as a requirements which may include a period civilian step-down facility is a matter, in the first working in the specialist area. Certain colleges instance, for the Department of Defence in require applicants to satisfy basic matriculation consultation with the Eastern Regional Health requirements if under age 23. Candidates aged 23 Authority which has responsibility for the years or over may be accepted as mature provision of health and personal social services students. for persons resident in counties Dublin, Kildare The crucial requirement is that the applicant is and Wicklow. In this regard, I understand that a a registered nurse or midwife, and no distinction study has been undertaken by the Northern Area is made in respect of the model of education Health Board to examine the feasibility of undertaken to obtain registration. I take this making facilities at St. Bricin’s available to public opportunity to reassure the Deputy that the patients. Following detailed consideration and question of discrimination or prejudice does not advice from technical experts, the board arise. concluded that the proposal was not viable. As stated earlier, entry requirements to courses generally include requirements in relation to Health Board Staff. experience. In the circumstances, I do not 296. Ms F. O’Malley asked the Minister for consider that an accreditation system is required. Health and Children the budget devoted by each In recent years, I have introduced a number of health board to staff training; and if he will make initiatives aimed at supporting the professional a statement on the matter. [10589/04] development of nurses and midwives. A nurse or midwife who wishes to undertake a part-time Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): nursing degree course is entitled to have his or The information requested by the Deputy is not her fees paid in full. The position in respect of available in my Department. It is being sought higher diplomas in specialist areas is that the from the Eastern Regional Health Authority and nurse or midwife undertaking the course is the health boards. I will transmit it to the Deputy entitled to receive full pay while doing so and to as soon as possible. have his or her fees paid in full. 763 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 764

Hospital Services. if he will make a statement on the matter. 299. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for [10599/04] Health and Children if he has developed a Minister of State at the Department of Health national plan for access to acute services by and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): My Department children; his views on whether, in this context, it has, since 1997, allocated significant levels of is desirable that Beaumont Hospital should funding across the disability sector which has develop its own accident and emergency resulted in very significant and unprecedented department for children; and if he will make a developments in the quality and quantity of the statement on the matter. [10592/04] health related services which are being provided Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): to people with disabilities. A total of \643 million The national health strategy includes a has been invested in these services, of which \388 commitment to a national review of paediatric million was provided for services to persons with services which will focus on the future intellectual disability and those with autism. The organisation and delivery of hospital services for overall total includes an additional \25 million in children. The aim will be to enhance the range current expenditure which was made available by and level of services available at regional level the Minister for Finance in the 2004 budget for and to determine the most effective configuration services for people with disabilities. of tertiary services. The scope for developing A total of \18 million is being used by services certain highly specialised services on an all- for persons with intellectual disability and those Ireland basis will also be explored. I am with autism to provide extra day services committed to establishing a national review particularly for young adults leaving school in which will, inter alia, inform and determine the June 2004, emergency residential placements and most effective configuration of acute hospital to enhance the health related support services paediatric services. available for children with intellectual disability or autism. The allocation of capital funding in Health Board Services. 2004 for the various programmes in the health 300. Dr. Upton asked the Minister for Health services has not yet been finalised. and Children if long term residential care can be My Department has not, to date, received a provided to a person (details supplied) in Dublin specific assessment of the need for residential 12. [10593/04] places for persons with intellectual disability in the Fingal area. While significant progress has Minister of State at the Department of Health been made in recent years, it is also clear from and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): Responsibility the demographic profile of the population with for the provision of care and treatment of the intellectual disability and the needs identified for named individual rests with the Eastern Regional them, that there is a need for a continued Health Authority. My Department has therefore programme of investment. asked the regional chief executive to investigate the matter raised by the Deputy and reply to her directly. Health Board Services. 303. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for Health Medical Cards. and Children if special funding will be made 301. Mr. Morgan asked the Minister for Health available to provide facilities for a person (details and Children if a medical card will be granted to supplied) at Rathfreda Cheshire Home, a person (details supplied) in County Louth. Newcastle West, County Limerick. [10600/04] [10594/04] Minister of State at the Department of Health Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): The provision of Responsibility for the provision of medical cards health related services, including supported is, by legislation, a matter for the chief executive accommodation, for people with physical and/or officer of the relevant health board ERHA. My sensory disabilities is a matter for the Eastern Department has, therefore, asked the CEO of the Regional Health Authority and the health North Eastern Health Board to investigate the boards, in the first instance. Accordingly, the matter raised by the Deputy and to reply to him Deputy’s question has been referred to the chief directly. executive officer of the Mid-Western Health Board with a request that he examine the matter Services for People with Disabilities. and reply to the Deputy directly, as a matter of urgency. 302. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for Health and Children if he has received an EU Directives. assessment of the need for residential places with intellectual disability in the Fingal area; if, in 304. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for Health drafting his proposals for allocating capital funds, and Children if he will outline the EU directives he has taken account of the outstanding needs on the treatment of mental illness and the that have been identified in the Fingal area; and promotion of mental health. [10601/04] 765 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 766

Minister of State at the Department of Health organised by the Irish Kidney Association on and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): I am informed behalf of the Irish Donor Network. The annual that there have been no EU directives on the donor awareness campaign is a very important treatment of mental illness and the promotion of event in the calendar for the Irish health service. mental health. A declaration on the promotion of It highlights the need for organ donors generally mental health was made at the European Council and makes a very important contribution to the meeting of 18 November 1999, adopting the national health strategy’s commitment to develop resolution on the promotion of mental health set organ transplantation services with a view to out in 12543/99 SAN 169. The Council also increasing donation and utilisation rates. adopted conclusions on combating stigma and In previous years my Department has been discrimination in respect of mental health, pleased to support donor awareness week and I following a conference on mental illness and announced at the launch continuing support for stigma in Europe: facing up to the challenges of the campaign with the provision of a grant of social inclusion and equity, which took place in \350,000. As part of this year’s campaign, the Athens in March 2003. Irish Kidney Association has written to all Members of the Da´il and Seanad requesting that Consultancy Contracts. they sign a declaration supporting organ donation 305. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for and transplantation in Ireland. I wholeheartedly Health and Children the amount paid by the endorse this request and was delighted to be the SEHB to non-medical consultants in each year first Member of the Oireachtas to sign the since 2002; if past employees of the SEHB are declaration in support this of worthy cause to retained as consultants; if so, the qualifications heighten public awareness of the need for this and expertise of same and the purpose of their life-saving act. consultancy; and if he will make a statement on In addition to the campaign and in order to the matter. [10678/04] ensure that the systems and practices of the transplant programmes in this country are Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): organised in such a way as to maximise all Responsibility for non-medical consultants rests opportunities for organ donation and utilisation, in this instance with the South Eastern Health I am proposing to establish, in the near future, an Board. My Department has, therefore, asked the expert group to review organ donation, chief executive officer to investigate the matters procurement and utilisation policy in Ireland. raised by the Deputy and reply to him directly. Public Health Nurses. Services for People with Disabilities. 308. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Health 306. Dr. Cowley asked the Minister for Health and Children the situation with regard to public and Children the reason there is no funding health nurses at local and national level (details available for a computer for a person (details supplied); his plans to change this situation; and supplied) in County Mayo who has a learning if he will make a statement on the matter. disability. [10684/04] [10694/04] Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): Responsibility Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): for the provision of funding for services to I presume the Deputy is referring to the pay persons with intellectual disability and those with awards recommended under the public service autism in the Mayo region lies, in the first benchmarking body, PSBB. instance, with the Western Health Board. My The Commission on Nursing, which reported in Department has, therefore, asked the chief 1998, made an observation that they considered executive officer to investigate the matter raised that public health nurses, PHNs, operated at the by the Deputy and reply to him directly. level of clinical nurse specialist. In its submission However, if the need for a computer arises as a to the PSBB, the Alliance of Nursing Unions — result of his educational needs, the provision of representing the Irish Nurses Organisation, the same would be a matter for the Department of Psychiatric Nurses Association, IMPACT and Education and Science. SIPTU nursing — made a claim to have the PHN grade paid a differential of 10% over the rate of Organ Donation. pay ultimately recommended for the clinical nurse manager 2, CNM2. At that time, PHNs 307. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Health were paid at the same rate as CNM2 plus a and Children the steps he is taking to raise the qualification allowance. Clinical nurse specialists public’s attention to the need for supporting are paid at the same rate as CNM2s. In respect organ donation and transplantation; and if he will of the statement contained in the report of the make a statement on the matter. [10692/04] Commission on Nursing, the Nursing Alliance Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): commented that, “Clearly it was not considering The Deputy will be aware that I recently had the the issue of pay rates for either grade but was honour to launch the 2004 organ donor awareness merely making a statement of the unique role week, which runs from 3 to 10 April and is played by the PHN.” 767 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 768

[Mr. Martin.] group’s report in February, I intend going to The PSBB, which issued its report in 2002, Government soon with a memorandum on the recommended an increase of 9.2% for the PHN report’s recommendations. grade and an increase of 12.2% for the clinical nurse manager 2-clinical nurse specialist grade. Departmental Bodies. The benchmarking process established new 310. Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for absolute levels of pay for nursing and other public Health and Children if he will consider service grades and, furthermore, stated that “no appointing a representative of the community benchmarked grade may receive a further midwives or a parent to the national expert group increase as a consequence of the Body’s on home births. [10696/04] recommendations as they effect any other grade, whether benchmarked or not”. In recognition of Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): their qualifications, all PHNs are paid a The composition of the domiciliary births group qualification allowance — \2,422 per annum — is a matter for the health board chief executive and PHNs who were in employment on 16 officers. However, I understand that the November 1999 are paid a further red circled domiciliary births group has addressed this issue allowance — \1,390 per annum — on top of by extending membership of the group to include basic salary. both a consumer representative and a community midwife. Pharmacy Regulations. Health Board Services. 309. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Health 311. Mr. O’Shea asked the Minister for Health and Children his views on the timescale for the and Children the funding provided to each of the discontinuance of the derogation on the health boards for the development of palliative introduction of a pharmacy Act (details care services in 2002, 2003 and 2004; and if he will supplied); and if he will make a statement on the make a statement on the matter. [10697/04] matter. [10695/04] Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): The report of the national advisory committee on As my reply of 4 March 2004 mentioned, the palliative care was published in October 2001 and pharmacy review group, the report of which was makes a number of recommendations for the published in February 2004, considered the issue future development of palliative care services in of the derogation. I also stated that I am Ireland. The report is seen as the blueprint for continuing to examine the complex legal and the future development of palliative care services public health issues in the group’s here in Ireland. Since October 2001, an additional recommendations, including the use of the \13.184 million has been invested in palliative derogation. The pharmacy review group care services and a further \1.2 million in recommended that the use of the EU derogation additional funding has been made available should continue until a pharmacy Act is in place specifically for palliative care in 2004. This — and then be discontinued — and that such an funding has been used to improve palliative care Act should be in place within 18 months. In the services in line with the recommendations in the context of the release of the pharmacy review national advisory report.

Health Board Additional Funding

2002 2003 2004

\m \m \m ERHA 1.930 0.701 0.340 MHB 0.330 0.122 0.065 MWHB 0.748 0.257 0.125 NEHB 0.590 0.217 0.105 NWHB 0.787 0.290 0.145 SEHB 0.578 0.213 0.175 SHB 1.072 0.376 0.105 WHB 0.892 0.280 0.140

Total 6.927 2.456 1.2

distances from Dublin, Cork and Galway; and if 312. Mr. O’Shea asked the Minister for Health he will make a statement on the matter. and Children, further to Question No. 363 of 30 [10698/04] March 2004, the way in which he will ensure equality of access for persons requiring palliative Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): care services, including radiotherapy, living long The Government’s objective is to provide a 769 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 770 model of cancer care which ensures that patients Western, Western and Southern Health Boards, with cancer receive the most appropriate and best to expedite the recruitment of two further quality of care regardless of their place of consultant radiation oncologists at CUH and at residence. To achieve this objective, an integrated UCHG. and co-ordinated approach, which encompasses The immediate developments in the southern prevention, screening, cancer treatment — and western regions will result in the provision of including medical, surgical and radiation an additional five linear accelerators. This oncology — supportive and palliative care, represents an increase of approximately 50% in education, training and research, is required. linear accelerator capacity. We will also provide The publication of the report of the national for the appointment of an additional five advisory committee on palliative care was consultant radiation oncologists. We have ten approved by Government and launched on 4 consultant radiation oncologists nationally. This October 2001. The report describes a will result in a significant increase in the numbers comprehensive palliative care service and acts as of patients receiving radiation oncology in the a blueprint for its development over a five to short term. These appointments are specifically seven year period. My Department has provided designed to offer patients in areas such as the funding to all the health boards on a pro rata mid-west and south-east equity of access to basis to commence the development of palliative radiation oncology services that are in line with care services in line with the recommendations in best international practice. the report. The report recommended that palliative care Pharmacy Regulations. needs assessment studies should be carried out in 313. Ms F. O’Malley asked the Minister for each health board area and these studies are Health and Children if the Mortell report has either completed or nearing completion. been officially published; his views on its findings; Information gleaned from these studies will and the steps in respect of the future of inform the future development of palliative care pharmacies here. [10725/04] services at health board level in consultation with the consultative and development committees Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): which have been set up as recommended in the I assume the Deputy is referring to the pharmacy report. In addition, a paediatric palliative care review group report. I established the pharmacy needs assessment study is nearing completion and review group in November 2001 to examine the the report of the expert group on specialist design pharmacy issues raised in the OECD report on guidelines for palliative care settings is also regulatory reform in Ireland. The group nearing completion. My Department, the health submitted its report on 31 January 2003. I am boards and the voluntary sector are actively continuing to examine the complex legal and involved in planning for the development of public health issues in the group’s palliative care services in line with the recommendations. The Deputy will appreciate recommendations in the report of the national that it would not be appropriate for me to advisory committee and funding is being comment on the report’s recommendations provided for the development of such services on before completion of this examination. I have an incremental basis in line with the made the report available on my Department’s recommendations in the report. website, www.doh.ie. Regarding access to palliative care services, such services are provided in a number of Hospital Services. facilities, both statutory and voluntary, and access 314. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for to such services for patients in need of palliative Health and Children if the CAT scan at St. care, including those with cancer, is based on Luke’s is out of order; if so, the length of time it need. My plan for the development of has been so; the cost to have it repaired and the radiotherapy services is that the supra-regional timeframe involved; the locations to which centres in Dublin, Cork and Galway will provide patients are being referred to during this time; comprehensive radiation oncology services to and if he will make a statement on the matter. patients regardless of their place of residence. [10726/04] Specifically, these supra-regional centres will provide significant sessional commitments to Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): patients in the mid-west, north-west and south- Responsibility for the provision of services at St. Luke’s Hospital, Kilkenny, is, in the first instance, east. Approval has already issued for the a matter for the South Eastern Health Board. My appointment of two consultant radiation Department has, therefore, asked the chief oncologists at Cork University Hospital and executive officer of the South Eastern Health University College Hospital Galway, with Board to investigate the matter and reply to the sessional commitments to the South Eastern Deputy directly. Health Board and the North Western Health Board, respectively. I expect proposals in this Health Board Services. regard to be finalised shortly for submission to Comhairle na nOspide´al, involving the Mid- 315. Dr. Twomey asked the Minister for Health 771 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 772

[Dr. Twomey.] Southern Health Boards, in order to expedite the and Children his views on efforts by local recruitment of two further consultant radiation communities in the Mid-Western Health Board oncologists at CUH and at UCHG. and South Eastern Health Board region to try The immediate developments in the southern and raise funding to provide a local radiotherapy and western regions will result in the provision of service; if he will intervene should he oppose an additional five linear accelerators. This these initiatives, if it is on grounds of represents an increase of approximately 50% in unavailability of financial resources; if it is due to linear accelerator capacity. We will also provide the recommendations of the radiotherapy group for the appointment of an additional five authors; and if so, his views on private consultant radiation oncologists. We have ten radiotherapy units in hospitals here at present in consultant radiation oncologists nationally. This view of the fact that the proposed units in the will result in a significant increase in the numbers mid-west are equal in status to these units. of patients receiving radiation oncology in the [10729/04] short term. These appointments are specifically designed to offer patients in areas such as the Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): mid-west and south-east equity of access to The efforts of local communities in raising funds radiation oncology services that are in line with for local health services is a feature of our health best international practice. system. The allocation of these funds is essentially a matter for these communities. In respect of Cancer Screening Programme. radiation oncology services specifically, I have met the Mid-Western Hospitals Development 316. Dr. Twomey asked the Minister for Health Trust and the Mid-Western Health Board and Children the reason breast screening, regarding their proposal for the development of including BreastCheck, is not integrated into the a radiation oncology unit on the campus of the regional centre at Waterford Regional Mid-Western Regional Hospital, Limerick. The Hospital. [10739/04] proposal is for a facility to be constructed on a Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): site to be made available by the Mid-Western The national breast screening board was Health Board and to be operated by a private established under the Health Act 1970 to hospital, with funds provided by the Mid-Western implement a scheme for the early diagnosis and Hospitals Development Trust. I have been primary treatment of breast cancer in women in assured that the development will not require the 50 to 64 age group. Phase one of the scheme revenue or capital resources from my operates in the eastern part of the country. Last Department. My understanding is that it is year, I announced the extension of the intended to treat public and private patients at programme to counties Carlow, Kilkenny and this facility. Wexford and the national roll-out to the western I have advised the representatives of the Mid- and southern parts of the country. Under the Western Health Board of the establishment of a BreastCheck scheme, women will have their national radiation oncology co-ordinating group diagnosis, investigation and primary treatment which will advise, inter alia, on the national co- managed by a multidisciplinary team. ordination and delivery of existing and planned Two centres operate in the eastern region, one radiation oncology services, including agreeing at St. Vincent’s Hospital, Dublin, and the other quality assurance protocols and guidelines for the at the Mater Hospital, Dublin. In 2002 the referral of public patients to private facilities. European Reference Organisation for Quality The Government’s objective is to provide a Assured Breast Screening and Diagnostic model of cancer care which ensures that patients Services, EUREF, evaluated the BreastCheck with cancer receive the most appropriate and best programme at these centres. EUREF concluded quality of care regardless of their place of that the programme operated to a very high residence. My plan for the development of standard. The overwhelming majority of women radiotherapy services is that the supra-regional whose breast cancer is detected by BreastCheck centres in Dublin, Cork and Galway will provide receive their primary treatment and follow-up at comprehensive radiation oncology services to one of these centres. Women also have an option patients regardless of their place of residence. of treatment and follow-up at their regional Specifically, these supra-regional centres will designated centre for symptomatic breast disease. provide significant sessional commitments to BreastCheck organises its services to ensure patients in the mid-west, north-west and south- integrated clinical pathways are in place to east. Approval has already issued for the effectively treat and care for women with breast appointment of two consultant radiation cancer which involves close linkages with the oncologists at Cork University Hospital and symptomatic services. University College Hospital Galway, with BreastCheck is developing a similar model of sessional commitments to the South Eastern and treatment and care as part of the national North Western Health Boards respectively. I extension of the programme which will require a expect proposals in this regard to be finalised further two centres. The centre in the south, shortly for submission to Comhairle na nOspide´al which will provide services for women in County involving the Mid-Western, Western and Waterford, will be located at the South Infirmary 773 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 774

Hospital, Cork, and the centre in the west will be neither the involvement nor approval of my located at University College Hospital, Galway. Department. Both these centres are at the planning stages. My Department recently met the ERHA and Women diagnosed with breast cancer under the NAHB in respect of this project, following which BreastCheck programme in the Waterford the latter recently submitted further region, for example, will be referred to the centre documentation regarding various aspects of the in Cork as soon as it is operational. They will also proposal. This material is being examined by my retain the option of seeking referral to the Department which will continue to work with the regional symptomatic services at Waterford ERHA and the NAHB with a view to resolving Regional Hospital. outstanding issues and progressing this project at the earliest opportunity. Health Board Services. Irish Blood Transfusion Service. 317. Ms Shortall asked the Minister for Health and Children if he will provide a progress report 318. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for on the new health centre and health board offices Health and Children the guidelines in place to in Ballymun which have been lying idle since protect the rights of persons who have in the past February 2003; if his attention has been drawn to donated blood; if, after not donating for a number the fact that local general practitioners based in of years, the persons names are removed; and if the existing health centre are unable to complete he will make a statement on the matter. a dual agreement with the RCSI for general [10757/04] practitioner training and research due to Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): inadequate space; when he will give approval for The Irish Blood Transfusion Service holds the fitting out of the new premises; when he will records, both manually and electronically, for all give approval for the payment of the rental active donors, lapsed donors and donors who purchase agreement, including the one year’s have been excluded from donation for one reason arrears; and in view of the deplorable conditions or another, for example, development of a in the existing health centre, when he expects the medical condition, spent more that five years in new facility to be operational. [10756/04] the UK, etc. Its records are treated in the strictest Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): confidence and are protected by the terms of the The identification, prioritisation and provision of Data Protection Act. Donor information is not health centres to meet the health and personal released to third parties without the written social service needs of local communities are consent of the donor. The IBTS does not remove matters for the health boards or the Eastern records from its database as it may need access to Regional Health Authority, ERHA. Prior to a donor’s records for look-back to trace previous proceeding with the development of such donations should the need arise. facilities, there are, however, a number of requirements that need to be satisfied. Of Health Board Services. fundamental importance in informing a decision 319. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Health to allow a health board or the ERHA to proceed and Children , further to Question No. 408 of 24 with a particular development is the availability February 2004, the full complement of beds now of sufficient funding to meet the full cost in use in the Maynooth community care unit; and involved. Additionally, all health boards and if he will make a statement on the matter. agencies are required to follow the Department’s [10765/04] guidance documentation for capital projects, together with national and EU capital Minister of State at the Department of Health procurement procedures. It is a requirement, in and Children (Mr. Callely): As the Deputy will the first instance, for the health agency involved be aware, the provision of health services in the to submit to the Department project details for Kildare area is, in the first instance, the agreement such as assessment of need, option responsibility of the South Western Area Health appraisal, design brief, cost estimates and cash Board acting under the aegis of the Eastern flow projections. Regional Health Authority. My Department has The former Eastern Health Board and its been advised by the chief executive of the successors, the ERHA and the Northern Area authority that the current position is that 30 beds Health Board, NAHB, in conjunction with are in use. This reduction in bed availability arose because of a shortage of appropriate trained staff. Ballymun Regeneration Limited, a wholly owned Efforts are ongoing to replace staff who have subsidiary of Dublin City Council, established for recently left and to recruit the necessary the purpose of advancing the regeneration of the additional staff to enable the unit to become fully area, proceeded with the development of the operational. Further staff interviews are taking project to hand involving a new health centre and place this week. community care headquarters as part of the new civic office development which was to be the Services for People with Disabilities. centrepiece of the redevelopment of Ballymun town centre. The project was pursued with 320. Mr. Murphy asked the Minister for Health 775 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 776

[Mr. Murphy.] Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children if he will meet a delegation from and Children (Mr. B. Lenihan): Rape crisis Charleville and District Handicapped Association centres throughout the country are funded by the to discuss its projected deficit of \818,000 for Eastern Regional Health Authority and the 2004. [10775/04] health boards, primarily to respond to the health Minister of State at the Department of Health needs of adult victims of sexual violence. and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): My Department Responsibility for the care and protection of has, since 1997, allocated significant levels of children rests with the Eastern Regional Health funding across the disability sector which has Authority and the health boards. I understand resulted in very significant and unprecedented from the Eastern Regional Health Authority and developments in the quality and quantity of the the health boards that the services available to health related services which are being provided minors who are victims of sexual assault and their to people with disabilities. A total of \643 million parents include professional services such as has been invested in these services, of which \388 medical and nursing, social work, child and million was provided for services to persons with adolescent psychiatry, clinical psychology and intellectual disability and those with autism. The family support services. Services provided include overall total includes an additional \25 million in risk assessment, child protection and treatment, current expenditure which was made available by counselling, support and advice and alternative the Minister for Finance in the 2004 budget for care as appropriate. services for people with disabilities. In respect of the specific resources available to With regard to Charleville and District minors who are victims of sexual assault, my Handicapped Association, in December 2003 my Department has sought the information from the Department allocated to the association, through Eastern Regional Health Authority and health the Mid-Western Health Board, a capital grant of \500,000. Funding and service related issues, boards. This information will be forwarded to the including service developments, are a matter, in Deputy as soon as possible. the first instance, for the relevant health board. In this instance, the Southern Health Board Hospital Services. would be the primary funding agency. The issue 323. Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for Health raised by the Deputy and other related matters and Children the steps he intends to take to will be included in the discussions regarding ensure that a person (details supplied) in County services to persons with intellectual disability or Westmeath is immediately admitted to Beaumont autism which take place on a regular basis Hospital; and if he will make a statement on the between my Department and the Southern matter. [10906/04] Health Board. Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): Medical Cards. Responsibility for the provision of hospital 321. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Health services to residents of County Westmeath rests and Children the reason a person (details with the Midland Health Board. My Department supplied) in County Cork has been refused a has, therefore, asked the chief executive officer medical card by the SHB despite suffering a heart of the board to investigate the position in respect attack and incurring a drugs bill of \360 per of this case and reply to the Deputy directly. month. [10831/04] Hospital Staff. Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): Responsibility for the provision of a medical card 324. Dr. Twomey asked the Minister for Health is, by legislation, a matter for the chief executive and Children the person who decided that the officer of the relevant health board-authority. My place of residence of the accident and emergency Department has, therefore, asked the chief consultants appointed to Clonmel, Kilkenny and executive officer of the Southern Health Board Wexford general hospitals should be Waterford to investigate the matter raised by the Deputy when these consultants will provide the majority and reply to him directly. Non-medical card of their sessional work (details supplied) in the holders can avail of the drugs payment scheme. three hospitals mentioned; and if he will Under this scheme, no individual or family unit \ intervene in this vital service for the counties of pays more than 78 per calendar month towards Wexford, Carlow-Kilkenny and Tipperary. the cost of approved prescribed medicines. [10915/04] Victims of Sexual Assault. Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): 322. Mr. Crowe asked the Minister for Health The provision of services, including the and Children if his attention has been drawn to appointment of staff at the hospitals mentioned, the fact that rape crisis centres do not deal with is a matter for the South Eastern Health Board. rape victims under the age of 18; and resources My Department has, therefore, asked the chief available to such victims, especially in the area of executive officer of the board to investigate the provision of counselling. [10899/04] matter raised and reply directly to the Deputy. 777 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 778

Traffic Management. boards designate for Dublin and Shannon Airports which bring together people of the 325. Mr. Gormley asked the Minister for highest calibre and combine considerable Transport if he intends to impose restrictions on international and national aviation expertise with heavy goods vehicles going through residential proven financial and business acumen. I will areas at night due to the high noise levels; if announce the full membership of the new Cork legislation can be used by local authorities to Airport board designate shortly. When formally restrict such movements; and if he will make a established, I am confident that these new statement on the matter. [10449/04] autonomous boards will devise the necessary Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The strategies and plans to promote and develop the Road (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997 give airports and, together with management and local authorities the power to apply restrictions staff, meet the requirements of airlines and to heavy goods vehicles from entering particular passengers as well as assisting in the economic public roads or areas. Article 17 of these and tourist based development of their regulations provides that, where the applicable catchment areas. traffic sign is provided at the entrance to a road, the driver of a vehicle, the unladen weight of Rural Transport Integration. which exceeds the weight specified on the sign, is 327. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for prohibited from proceeding beyond the sign Transport if he has completed his funding review except where it is necessary for the vehicle to of the South Westmeath Rural Transport enter a road solely for the purpose of gaining Association; the additional funding provided to access to or egress from premises accessible only the association to reinstate the service to south from that road. Such a prohibition pursuant to Roscommon; and if he will make a statement on article 17 operates on a 24 hour basis. The the matter. [10671/04] application of such restrictions is a matter for each local authority. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Area Development Management Limited, which State Airports. administers the rural transport initiative on behalf of my Department, is currently 326. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for undertaking an appraisal of the scheme. This is Transport the progress which has been made in expected to be completed by the summer. his discussions with the trade unions in Aer While my Department provides the overall Rianta regarding the protection of the tenure and funding for the RTI, ADM is responsible for the conditions of employment of its workers in the specific allocations to each RTI project. context of the three new independent airport However, I understand that it is for each group authorities which he proposes; and if his to decide on the specific services to be funded commitment deals with the contingency that one from its allocation. of the airports might experience poorer trading While the national development plan conditions than he envisages. [10610/04] earmarked \4.4 million for the scheme, \3 million Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): As the has been provided annually for the scheme since Deputy will be aware, I have conveyed assurances 2002. and clarifications on several occasions to ICTU and the trade unions in Aer Rianta in respect of Road Safety. the protection of the current tenure and terms 328. Mr. Quinn asked the Minister for and conditions of employment of Aer Rianta Transport the proposals he has for making the workers on transfer to the three new independent wearing of bicycle safety helmets, for children airport authorities when established. Broad and adults, a legal requirement and put on a financial projections for each of the three airports statutory basis; and if he will make a statement are currently being finalised and, when this work on the matter. [10727/04] is completed, I have already confirmed my willingness to share key financial information Minister of State at the Department of with the unions in the context of the current Transport (Dr. McDaid): I am advised by the engagement process, which is being facilitated by National Safety Council that the wearing of the Labour Relations Commission, before helmets is better encouraged by way of legislation is finalised. In due course, I look educational and publicity campaigns such as forward to a resumption of this engagement those undertaken by the council. The activities of process at which issues of concern to Aer Rianta the council in this area include the distribution of workers can be discussed further. leaflets and posters and the provision of advice in Any commercial company, whether in the schools by school safety officers. The Rules of the public or private sector, can encounter difficult Road booklet also encourages the use of cycle trading conditions from time to time. I believe helmets and draws attention to their safety that each of the individual State airports, under benefits. new visionary leadership, will respond effectively I have no plans to make the wearing of bicycle to the challenges of a rapidly changing aviation safety helmets, for children and adults a legal environment. I have already announced the requirement at this time. I am satisfied that at 779 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 780

[Dr. McDaid.] Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta sa Teach De´ present a statutory requirement to wear cycle Ma´irt an 9 Ma´rta go mbeidh rialacha´n ag teacht helmets, together with the associated chun cinn an mhı´ seo i dtaca le seasamh dlı´thiu´ il prosecutions and penalties for contravention, don fhocal “TACSAI´”, an bhfuil se´ i gceist aige would not be appropriate, particularly in the case treoir a eisiu´ int do na foirne sna hionaid ta´sta´la of minors. NCT gan cloı´ leis an riail ata´ ann faoi la´thair a choisceann aon leagan eile seachas an focal Public Transport. Be´arla “TAXI” a bheith inghlactha chun teastas 329. Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for a bhaint amach do ghluaistea´n. [10837/04] Transport if the free transport facility available to Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): pensioners in respect of CIE-run services will also To´ gfaidh me´ Ceisteanna Uimh. 331, 332 agus 336 apply to Luas services. [10728/04] le che´ile. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I Nı´lse´ i gceist agam cu´ iteamh a thabhairt do na understand that the Department of Social and daoine ata´ luaite sa gceist seo. Ta´ obair ar siu´ l Family Affairs are in discussions with the Railway faoi la´thair im Roinn agus in Oifig an Ard Aighne Procurement Agency on arrangements for Luas chun an deacracht dlı´thiuil in u´ sa´id an fhocail ´ participation in the free travel scheme. The RPA Ghaeilge “TACSAI” ar fho´ graı´ dı´on tacsaithe a has informed me that it looks forward to an re´iteach. Ta´ se´ ar intinn ionstraim reachtu´ il nua a agreement on the terms of that participation dhe´anamh chun an cheartu´ riachtanach a chur ar shortly and to make an announcement in advance Ionstraim Reachtu´ il 136 de 1995. Ta´ mo Roinn of passenger operations at the end of June 2004. chun a chuid oiblige´id a chomhlı´onadh i dtaca leis an Ghaeilge faoin mBunreacht agus faoi Achta Speed Limits. an Teanga Oifigiu´ la 2003. Ce´ go bhfuil se´ ar intinn agam ceartu´ a dhe´anamh ar sheasamh 330. Ms Shortall asked the Minister for dlı´thiu´ il an fhocail Ghaeilge “TACSAI´”, nı´lse´ ar Transport further to parliamentary Question No. mo chumas treoir a thabhairt d’e´inne gan cloı´ le 430 of 17 February 2004, the outcome of the rialacha an dlı´ ata´ i bhfeidhm. discussions between his Department and the Society of the Irish Motor Industry in relation to 333. D’fhiafraigh Aengus O´ Snodaigh den the proposed changeover to metric values for Aire Iompair an bhfuil ceangal le feiscint idir speed measurement by 31 December 2004; and aoiseanna na ngluaistea´n agus na gluaistea´in a the proposals he has as a result of these bhfuil ag teip orthu testime´ireacht a bhaint amach discussions. [10761/04] o´ na hionaid NCT, an bhfe´adfaidh se´ iad a liosta´il agus an ce´adata´n ata´ i gceist a chur in iu´ l. Minister of State at the Department of [10834/04] Transport (Dr. McDaid): Discussions are continuing between my Department and the 334. D’fhiafraigh Aengus O´ Snodaigh den Society of the Irish Motor Industry concerning Aire Iompair cad e´ an lı´on gluaistea´nar the preparations for the changeover to metric diu´ ltaı´odh testime´ireacht do´ ibh in ionaid ta´sta´la values for speed measurement. NCT na tı´re agus na fa´thanna e´agsu´ la ar diu´ ltaı´odh sin do´ ibh de re´ir gach bliana ata´ an Scru´ du´ Na´isiu´ nta Feithiclı´. sce´im i bhfeidhm. [10835/04] ´ 331. D’fhiafraigh Aengus O Snodaigh den Minister of State at the Department of Aire Iompair an bhfuil se´ i gceist aige cu´ iteamh a Transport (Dr. McDaid): To´ gfaidh me´ thabhairt do´ ibh siu´ d a ndearnadh leatrom orthu Ceisteanna Uimh. 333 agus 334 le che´ile. o´ thaobh a gcearta teanga agus a gcearta Nı´l aon fhianaise ann a leirı´onn gur minice a bunreachtu´ la nuair a diu´ ltaı´odh teistime´ireacht theipeann ar fheithiclı´ de dhe´antu´ sno´ de mhu´ nla NCT a thabhairt do´ ibh de thairbhe a gcomharthaı´ faoi leith ag an ta´sta´il na´isiu´ nta gluaistea´nna´ mar tacsaı´ a bheith sa “prı´omhtheanga oifigiu´ il” agus a theipeann ar fheithiclı´ de dhe´antu´ is no´ de go raibh orthu an scru´ du´ gluaistea´in a dhe´anamh mhu´ nlaı´ eile ata´ ar chomhaois leo. Is e´ is mo´ a athuair agus comharthaı´ u´ ra a fha´il da´ re´ir, rud a dhe´anann deimhin de go n-e´ireoidh le feithicil sa chuir costas breise orthu de bharr an Sta´t a bheith ta´sta´il na´isiu´ nta gluaistea´nna´ e´ a bheith oibrithe ag bru´ an Bhe´arla orthu. [10832/04] agus coinnithe de re´ir mholtaı´ an de´anto´ ra. 332. D’fhiafraigh Aengus O´ Snodaigh den Aire Ta´ staitistic maidir le ra´taı´ pas agus teipe ag Iompair ce´ na ce´imeanna ata´ se´ a´ ghlacadh chun an ta´sta´il na´isiu´ nta gluaistea´n, agus maidir leis na a chinntiu´ nach ndiu´ lto´ far testime´ireacht do prı´omhchu´ iseanna teipe, ar fa´il ar shuı´omh idirlı´n ghluaistea´in a bhfuil an focal “TACSAI´” in airde na seirbhı´se ta´sta´la gluaistea´narwww.ncts.ie. orthu agus ce´ na ce´imeanna ata´ se´ a ghlacadh 335. D’fhiafraigh Aengus O´ Snodaigh den chun a chinntiu´ go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ar Aire Iompair cad e´ an lı´on gluaistea´nar chomhche´im no´ chun tosaigh mar is le´ir o´ n diu´ ltaı´odh teistime´ireacht do´ ibh in ionaid ta´sta´la mBunreacht agus sa reachtaı´ocht agus i rialacha´in NCT na tı´re de thairbhe go raibh an focal eile a bhaineann lena Roinn. [10833/04] “TACSAI´” acu ar a ngluastea´in seachas an 336. D’fhiafraigh Aengus O´ Snodaigh den leagan Be´arla “TAXI” arb e´ amha´in ata´ Aire Iompair de thairbhe gur fho´ gair an tAire ceadaithe faoin reachtaı´ocht chuı´; agus ce´n 781 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 782 ce´adata´n iad sin den iomla´n ar diu´ ltaı´odh In that context, a notification of a proposal to teistime´ireacht do´ ibh do gach bliain o´ bunaı´odh make a deportation order issued to the person in an sce´im. [10836/04] question on 9 March 2004 and he was given an opportunity to make representations in relation Minister of State at the Department of to it. If, in the light of those representations and Transport (Dr. McDaid): Nı´ thiomsaı´onn mo the range of factors set out in section 3(6) of the Roinn faisne´is maidir leis an lı´on feithiclı´ da´ Immigration Act 1999, the Minister decides not ndiu´ ltaı´tear teistime´ireacht oiriu´ nachta mar to make a deportation order, he will be given gheall ar an fhocal “TACSAI´” a bheith ar an leave to remain on a humanitarian basis. chomhartha dı´n seachas an focal “TAXI”. Given of the large number of such cases on hand I am unable to say at this stage when the Question No. 336 answered with Question file will be further examined. No. 331. Security Issues. Registration of Title. 339. Mr. Cuffe asked the Minister for Justice, 337. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of secret Equality and Law Reform if dealings on a folio agents that will accompany President Bush to will be expedited for persons (details supplied) in Ireland in June 2004; the person who will have County Mayo. [10459/04] operational control of the agents during the visit; Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and if he will make a statement on the matter. (Mr. McDowell): I am informed by the Registrar [10477/04] of Titles that this is an application for transfer of Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform part and discharge of burdens which was (Mr. McDowell): I am informed by the Garda lodged on 9 January, 2004. Dealing No. authorities that, as a matter of policy, the Garda D2004SM002349G refers. I am further informed Sı´ocha´na does not disclose information on that queries issued to the lodging solicitor on 31 matters relating to the security of VIPs. March 2004 and that the application cannot proceed until these queries have been Asylum Applications. satisfactorily resolved. However, on receipt of a satisfactory reply, the matter will receive further 340. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for attention in the Land Registry. Justice, Equality and Law Reform if an application for family reunification will be Asylum Applications. expedited in the name of a person (details supplied) in County Dublin. [10490/04] 338. Mr. Carey asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will review the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform decision to deport a person (details supplied) in (Mr. McDowell): The application for family Dublin 11 in view of the good work they are reunification by the person concerned in respect doing in the community; and if he will make a of his two nieces was refused in February 2004. statement on the matter. [10461/04] An appeal against this decision was subsequently lodged. Further documentation to support the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform appeal has been requested from the applicant and (Mr. McDowell): The person in question arrived a decision on the appeal will be taken on receipt in the State in October 2002 and made an of this documentation. application for asylum. His wife had arrived in the State the previous month, September, and 341. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for made an asylum application. She had a child in Justice, Equality and Law Reform if permission October 2002. Both withdrew their asylum to remain in the State in the case of persons applications and applied for residency on the (details supplied) in County Kilkenny will be basis of parentage of an Irish born child. expedited. [10525/04] Following the decision of the Supreme Court in the cases of L & O, the separate procedure Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform which then existed to enable persons to apply to (Mr. McDowell): The persons concerned both reside in the State on the sole basis of parentage made an application for asylum in the State, the of an Irish born child ended on 19 February 2003. husband in April 2001 and the wife in September The Government decided that the separate 2001. They subsequently withdrew their asylum procedure would not apply to cases which were applications and made an application for outstanding on that date. There is a large number residency on the basis of their parentage of an of such cases outstanding at present, including the Irish born child. case to which the Deputy refers. Following the decision of the Supreme Court Since the person in question does not have an in the cases of L & O, the separate procedure alternative legal basis for remaining in this which then existed to enable persons to apply to jurisdiction the issue of permission to remain will reside in the State on the sole basis of parentage be considered, but only in the context of a of an Irish born child ended on 19 February 2003. ministerial proposal to make a deportation order. The persons referred to by the Deputy withdrew 783 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 784

[Mr. McDowell.] assertions made in the newspaper article in their asylum applications after this date and question. The Garda Sı´ocha´na has excellent lines therefore an application for residency based of communication and co-operation with police solely on parentage of an Irish born child could forces and security services in the European not be accepted. Union, which are used on an ongoing basis and Since the persons in question do not have an in response to particular events, including the alternative legal basis for remaining in this Madrid bombings. jurisdiction the issue of permission to remain will be considered, but only in the context of a Asylum Applications. ministerial proposal to deport them. In that context they have already been notified of such a 344. Mr. Deenihan asked the Minister for proposal on 3 March 2004 and given an Justice, Equality and Law Reform the status of opportunity to make representations in relation asylum seekers resident here from the Czech to it. If, in the light of representations received Republic after the accession of that country to and the range of factors set out in section 3(6) of the EU in May 2004; and if he will make a the Immigration Act 1999, the Minister decides statement on the matter. [10657/04] not to make a deportation order they will be Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform given leave to remain on a humanitarian basis. (Mr. McDowell): The EU accession states, Given the large number of such cases on hand including the Czech Republic, were designated as I am unable to say at this stage when the file will safe countries of origin on 15 September 2003 by be examined. order made under the Refugee Act 1996. By virtue of this designation, asylum applications Registration of Title. from nationals of these states are prioritised for 342. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Justice, processing by the Office of the Refugee Equality and Law Reform, further to Applications Commissioner and the Refugee Parliamentary Question No. 510 of 23 March Appeals Tribunal. Accordingly, it is expected that 2004, the reason a dealing number (details there will be very few such applications on hands supplied) was dealt with in 2002. [10557/04] on 1 May 2004 when the Czech Republic becomes Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform a full member of the European Union. (Mr. McDowell): I refer the Deputy to my The position concerning the treatment of any previous answer to Question No. 510 of 23 March outstanding asylum applications which may be on 2004 in which he enquired about dealing No. hands from nationals of the accession states D2001SM05844A. This dealing was associated generally on 1 May 2004 is under consideration with D2001SM005843Y, inadvertently quoted by at the present time and will have regard to the the Land Registry as D2003SM005843Y in that fact that from that date, the ten accession states response. The Registrar of Titles has confirmed will be party to the treaties governing the that both these applications were completed on European Communities and their citizens will, in 29 July 2002. The Registrar of Titles is unaware general, enjoy the same rights in relation to free of any error in relation to these registrations. movement as current EU citizens. I am informed that a further application for a 345. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for transfer of part was lodged on 10 October 2002 Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of on the folio referred to by the Deputy. Dealing asylum seekers deported in the past 12 months; No. D2002SM009008W refers. I am further the numbers of each nationality; and if he will informed by the Registrar of Titles that the make a statement on the matter. [10670/04] matter has been expedited and is receiving attention in the Land Registry. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Common Foreign and Security Policy. (Mr. McDowell): Asylum seekers have a right of temporary residence in the State while their 343. Mr. Costello asked the Minister for applications are being processed and are not Justice, Equality and Law Reform if his attention considered for deportation unless their has been drawn to the article in a newspaper applications are refused or they are transferred to (details supplied); if his Department or the Garda another EU state pursuant to the Dublin have information which confirms or denies the Convention to have their asylum applications assertions made in the article; the extra security processed there. measures which have been taken arising from the Section 3(2) of the Immigration Act 1999, as article; if Garda contact has been made with the amended, allows the Minister to make Spanish authorities; and if he will make a deportation orders in respect of nine categories statement on the matter. [10558/04] of person. These include asylum seekers who Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform have failed in their applications or asylum seekers (Mr. McDowell): I am informed by the Garda whose applications are being transferred under authorities that the Garda Sı´ocha´na, which is the Dublin Convention. Separate statistics in responsible for intelligence on such matters, is not relation to the different categories are not aware of any information that would confirm the maintained by my Department but the vast 785 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 786 majority of deportations are in respect of failed period from 1 April 2003 to 31 March 2004 was asylum seekers. 661. The nationalities of these deportees are as The number of deportation orders effected by follows: the Garda national immigration bureau for the

Deportation Orders Effected by Nationality

1 April 2003 — 31 March 2004

Nationality Number Nationality Number

Albania 5 Moldova 36 Algeria 3 New Zealand 1 Angola 5 Niger 1 Belarus 1 Nigeria 22 Brazil 3 Pakistan 5 Bulgaria 13 Peru 1 China 41 Philippines 1 Croatia 19 Poland 40 Czech Republic 57 Romania 230 Egypt 9 Russia 7 Estonia 8 Serbia 3 Gambia 1 Sierra Leone 1 Hungary 5 Slovakia 4 India 4 South Africa 38 Iraq 4 Sudan 1 Israel 2 Turkey 2 Kosovo 16 Ukraine 16 Latvia 19 United States 3 Lithuania 25 Yugoslavia 1 Malaysia 7 Zaire 1

Visa Applications. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): I propose to take Questions 346. Mr. O’Dowd asked the Minister for Nos. 347 and 349 together. Justice, Equality and Law Reform if a visa will be The central authority for child abduction granted to a person (details supplied). [10685/04] operates in my Department for the purposes of Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of (Mr. McDowell): The person in question made a International Child Abduction and the European visa application in March 2004. The application Convention on Recognition and Enforcement of was refused because it had not been established, Decisions Concerning Custody of Children and on Restoration of Custody of Children. Both on the basis of the documentation supplied to my these conventions contain provisions pertaining Department, that the applicant would observe the to access and apply to children under the age of conditions of the visa. The appeal referred to by 16. the Deputy has not as yet been received by the The central authority and the person referred immigration division of my Department, but it to by the Deputy have been in correspondence will be processed as promptly as possible on with each other. I assure the Deputy, however, receipt of same. that no assurance of the kind mentioned in the question was given by the central authority, nor Child Abduction. could such assurance be given since it is a matter 347. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for for the relevant UK authorities alone. Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he has In response to correspondence from the person referred to by the Deputy, the central authority received correspondence regarding the family law sought further information from that person to case of a person (details supplied) in County make it possible for the central authority to Cork. [10707/04] transmit an application to make arrangements for 349. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for the exercise of rights of access under Article 21 Justice, Equality and Law Reform if, following of the Hague Convention. The central authority assurances given by his Department to a person is ready to offer what assistance it can once that (details supplied) in County Cork that a care information is received. worker would ascertain their child’s well-being in Garda Complaints Procedures. England, this was ever carried out. [10709/04] 348. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for 787 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 788

[Mr. J. Higgins.] process, this application will be considered by the Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on programme appraisal committee, chaired by my whether the case of a person (details supplied) Department, which makes a funding in County Cork is a cause for concern and that recommendation to me before I make a final legitimate questions may arise from this case decision on the matter. regarding the impartiality of some judges and There has been considerable demand from some members of the Garda Sı´ocha´na. community-based groups for capital grant [10708/04] assistance under the programme and every county has benefited from significant grant Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform commitments to provide new and enhanced (Mr. McDowell): The Deputy will appreciate that community-based child care facilities. My the courts are, subject only to the Constitution Department is carrying out an extensive review and the law, independent in the exercise of their of the programme’s capital commitments to date judicial functions and, therefore, it is not open to to ensure that those grant commitments me as Minister to comment or intervene in any previously entered into will in fact be realised by way in relation to how a particular case was the groups on the ground. At the same time, it conducted or the outcome of any such is also reviewing different budget lines under the proceedings. These are matters entirely for the capital programme to ensure that the most presiding judge and it would be inappropriate for effective use is made of all remaining capital me to comment or intervene in such matters. funding in accordance with the objectives of the If the person concerned wishes to make a programme. complaint about certain members of the Garda Every effort is being made to expedite the Sı´ocha´na, I suggest that he contact the Garda programme review of the capital elements of the Sı´ocha´na Complaints Board which is the equal opportunities child care programme to independent body set up under the Garda ensure all capital projects which have already Sı´ocha´na Complaints Act 1986 and which received grant allocations will proceed. It would provides a system of investigation and be premature of me to comment further on adjudication of complaints by the public against specific applications for capital grant assistance the Garda. The person concerned is also free to under the programme at this time. complain directly to the Garda Commissioner. Legal Aid Service. Question No. 349 answered with Question No. 347. 351. Mr. Kehoe asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the cost of providing Child Care Services. free legal aid in 2003; the number of persons who availed of the scheme in 2003 more than two 350. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Justice, times during the year; and the amount paid out Equality and Law Reform if his attention has in overtime to the legal profession providing free been drawn to the grant application in respect of legal aid for court sittings that took place after 4 the Castle Park community group, Enniscrone, p.m. [10711/04] County Sligo, for a child care facility in west Sligo which would serve Enniscrone, Kilglass, Culeens, Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Castleconnor and Rathlee; if his attention has (Mr. McDowell): The Legal Aid Board received further been drawn to the fact that there is no a grant-in-aid of \18.389 million for the year 2003. child care facility within a ten mile radius of In addition, a further \335,494 was received by Enniscrone; and if he will make a statement on the Legal Aid Board in client contributions in the matter. [10710/04] 2003 in accordance with the provisions of section 29(1)(b) of the Civil Legal Aid Act 1995. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Solicitors in the board are not paid overtime. (Mr. McDowell): An application for capital grant The cost of providing criminal legal aid in 2003 assistance from the 2000 — 2006 equal was \37.346 million. Overtime is not paid to opportunities child care programme was received members of the legal profession under the from this community based group on 3 February criminal legal aid scheme. However, 2004. supplementary refresher fees are payable to The day-to-day administration of the solicitors and barristers in cases that continue programme is undertaken by Area Development after 5 p.m. In 2003, the following “after 5” fees Management Limited which has been engaged by were paid to solicitors and barristers: my Department to carry out thorough assessments of all applications for grant Claimant Number of claims Amount paid assistance under the programme, on my behalf. All large scale capital projects are referred by \ ADM Limited to an independent external Solicitors 214 273,000 building specialist to assess the suitability of the Barristers 403 918,562 proposal and its value for money. I understand that this application is under appraisal. On completion of the assessment Records are not maintained in a way which would readily identify the number of persons who 789 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 790 availed of legal aid more than twice during the representations received and the range of factors year and the information sought could be set out in section 3(6) of the Immigration Act compiled only by the diversion of staff from other 1999, the Minister decides not to make a important work. deportation order she will be given leave to remain on a humanitarian basis. Because of the Residency Permits. large number of such cases on hand, I am unable to say at this stage when the file will be examined. 352. Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the position in relation Deportation Orders. to the application for residency by a person 353. Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for Justice, (details supplied) in County Wexford who is the Equality and Law Reform the names, ages and parent of an Irish-born child; and if he will make former addresses here of the nationals deported a statement on the matter. [10712/04] on 31 March 2004; the number of deportation Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform orders signed by him awaiting execution; and if (Mr. McDowell): The person concerned, along he will make a statement on the matter. with her then six year old son, arrived in the State [10713/04] on 19 August 2002 and made an asylum Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform application. On 4 September 2002 she gave birth. (Mr. McDowell): The Garda national On 8 October 2002 she withdrew her asylum immigration bureau removed a total of 61 application and applied for residency on the basis persons on a charter operation to Romania and of parentage of the Irish born child. Moldova on 31 March 2004. The persons Following the decision of the Supreme Court concerned were mainly former asylum seekers in the cases of L and O, the separate procedure who had their claims for refugee status refused which then existed to enable persons to apply to after due consideration by one or both of the two reside in the State on the sole basis of parentage independent statutory offices established to of an Irish born child ended on 19 February 2003. consider such applications i.e. the Office of the The Government decided that the separate Refugee Applications Commissioner and the procedure would not apply to cases which were Refugee Appeals Tribunal. outstanding on that date. There are a large Section 19 of the Refugee Act 1996 specifically number of such cases outstanding at present, requires, inter alia, the Minister for Justice, including the case to which the Deputy refers. Equality and Law Reform to take all practicable Since the person in question does not have an steps to ensure that the identity of applicants is alternative legal basis for remaining in this kept confidential. Therefore, the precise jurisdiction the issue of permission to remain will information sought cannot be provided. be considered — but only in the context of a However, I can provide the following statistical ministerial proposal to deport her. If, in light of details in respect of those removed:

Country of No. of adults No. of dependent Voluntary returns Persons refused leave to land in the destination deported minors deported State

Romania 44 3 3* 5 Moldova 5 1 Nil Nil *Irish born children who accompanied their parents.

There are currently 637 deportation orders, has been used in terrorist bombings abroad; if, in arrangements for the implementation of which view of the fact that the importation into are being made. There are a further 4,883 persons Northern Ireland of such material has been who failed to present themselves to the Garda banned by the authorities there on security national immigration bureau in accordance with grounds, he has plans to impose similar controls the arrangements made for the implementation or restrictions in this jurisdiction; and if he will of deportation orders made against them. These make a statement on the matter. [10741/04] persons are classified as evaders and, although it Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is not known how many actually remain in the (Mr. McDowell): Ammonium nitrate and State, they are subject to arrest and detention for ammonium nitrate-based fertilisers have been the purposes of deportation. used by terrorists to manufacture improvised explosive devices in this jurisdiction, and in Hazardous Substances. Northern Ireland, for many years. For that 354. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for reason, regulations were introduced in 1972 in Justice, Equality and Law Reform if her attention both parts of the Island declaring ammonium has been drawn to concerns expressed at the nitrate and some ammonium nitrate-based security implications of the importation of fertilisers to be explosives. significant amounts of enriched ammonium In particular, SI 191 of 1972, Explosives nitrate blends of fertilisers from outside the EU, (Ammonium Nitrate and Sodium Chlorate) especially in view of reports that such material Order 1972, declares that the substances specified 791 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 792

[Mr. McDowell.] Minister for Education and Science and my in the Schedule to the order shall be deemed to Department has no role in this regard. Their care be explosives within the meaning of the is the statutory responsibility of the health Explosives Act 1875. The Schedule to the order boards. In the Eastern Regional Health includes, inter alia, ammonium nitrate and certain Authority Area, the East Coast Area Health fertilisers which contain ammonium nitrate in Board, ECAHB, carries out this function for the excess of 79% by weight. Under the terms of the three local area health boards. order, these substances are deemed to be The Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) explosives within the meaning of the Act and are, Act 2003 which was commenced on 27th May, therefore, subject to the same security controls 2003, restricts the awarding of a rent supplement for licensing, importation and storage as to asylum seekers. Guidance issued to health conventional explosives. boards by the Department of Social and Family The Northern Ireland order was amended in Affairs — SWA Circular No. 02/03 — stipulates 1996 to state in essence that no one particle in a that, where unaccompanied minor asylum seekers blended fertiliser may contain more than 79% by reach 18 years of age and are discharged from the weight of ammonium nitrate. This means that if care of a health board, they should be offered a blend contains a single granule or “prill” of placement in adult direct provision ammonium nitrate it would fall within the remit accommodation. of the order and would be declared an explosive. Arising from this, when unaccompanied minors The question of amending the relevant order reach 18 years of age and are discharged by the in this jurisdiction in line with the amended order health boards from their care they are provided in Northern Ireland was considered in 2000 but, with direct provision accommodation by the following consultation with all relevant agencies, Reception and Integration Agency, RIA, which including the Forensic Science Laboratory, the operates under the aegis of my Department. It Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural should be noted, however, that a health board, in Development and the State Laboratory, it was line with the provisions of social welfare decided that such an amendment was not legislation, may exercise discretion and retain necessary. However, in the light of recent events persons in its accommodation who have attained and the concerns expressed in relation to certain 18 years of age where there is a determination imports, I have asked officials of my Department that the individual is vulnerable or does not have to consult urgently with all relevant State a sufficient level of maturity to be accommodated agencies and the industry to examine these in an adult facility. substances with a view to assessing the ease of To date the RIA has arranged placements for segregation of ammonium nitrate from the approximately 150 former unaccompanied minors blended fertiliser and to make recommendations in direct provision accommodation at the request in relation to the control of the substances. of the ECAHB. In addition, the RIA has also arranged a small number of placements in such Citizenship Applications. accommodation in the Cork city area at the 355. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Justice, request of the Southern Health Board. The RIA, Equality and Law Reform further to in consultation with the dedicated social work Parliamentary Question No. 425 of 10 February team of the ECAHB working with 2004, the position regarding the application by a unaccompanied minors, has made a major effort person (details supplied) in County Kildare for to ensure that former unaccompanied minors naturalisation; and if he will make a statement on who are second level students are facilitated in the matter. [10753/04] continuing to attend school by effecting Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform placements close to their previous health board (Mr. McDowell): As I informed the Deputy in accommodation. response to Question No. 369 of 9 March 2004, During the February mid-term break a senior the application of the individual concerned will official from the RIA attended meetings with be processed to finality and I will inform him as former unaccompanied minors who had been soon as I make a decision on the matter. This relocated to direct provision accommodation to remains the position. discuss what further initiatives could be put in place to facilitate their continuance in education. Health Board Services. The RIA also engaged in discussions with VECs, Southside Partnership, Dun Laoghaire Refugee 356. Ms Enright asked the Minister for Justice, Support Group, Northern Area Health Board, Equality and Law Reform the position with NAHB, and the ECAHB to identify ways to regard to the education of unaccompanied minors improve transitional supports for former living in hostel accommodation in Dun Laoghaire unaccompanied minors attending school. Arising (details supplied); and if he will make a statement from these discussions study facilities are being on the matter. [10754/04] enhanced in direct provision centres. It is also Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform intended to improve tutor supports for leaving (Mr. McDowell): The provision of education to certificate students. In the context of transitional unaccompanied minors is a matter for the supports the NAHB will ensure that all leaving 793 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 794 certificate students in direct provision receive the public on a 24-hour basis. The Maynooth and appropriate SWA payments. In addition, every Celbridge area is patrolled on a 24-hour basis by full-time student is being advised to avail of their a patrol car. This is increased to two patrol cars entitlement to child benefit until they reach 19 at weekends. Leixlip Garda station forms part of years of age. Further referrals of former Lucan district in the Dublin metropolitan region, unaccompanied minors are due to take place over western division. Lucan Garda station is open to the coming months and I am informed by the the public on a 24-hour basis. The Leixlip area is RIA that they have agreed with the ECAHB to patrolled by the Leixlip patrol car on a 24-hour defer referrals of examination students until the basis. Local Garda management is satisfied that State examinations have been completed in late the arrangements currently at Maynooth, Leixlip June 2004. and Celbridge are adequate to meet the present policing needs of the area. There are currently no Asylum Applications. plans to establish a district headquarters for the 357. Mr. Kehoe asked the Minister for Justice, area of Maynooth, Leixlip and Celbridge. Equality and Law Reform when residency will be Local Authority By-Laws. granted to persons (details supplied) in County Dublin. [10755/04] 359. Mr. Murphy asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will extend the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform powers of local authorities to enable them to (Mr. McDowell): The persons concerned arrived enact by-laws preventing the drinking of alcohol in the State in August 2001 and made an asylum in parks owned by community councils in the applications. They had a child in March 2002 and context of public order legislation. [10778/04] withdrew their asylum applications and applied for residency on the basis of parentage of that Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform child. (Mr. McDowell): I understand that the power to Following the decision of the Supreme Court make by-laws of this nature is already available in the cases of L and O the separate procedure to local authorities. In fact some Local which then existed to enable persons to apply to Authorities have already taken decisive action to reside in the State on the sole basis of parentage control the consumption of alcohol in certain of an Irish born child ended on 19 February 2003. public places by adopting by laws prohibiting the The Government decided that the separate consumption of intoxicating liquor in public procedure would not apply to cases which were places within their administrative areas. I have outstanding on that date. There are a large been informed by the Department of the number of such cases outstanding at present, Environment, Heritage and Local Government including the cases to which the Deputy refers. that the statutory basis for such action by local Since the persons in question do not have an authorities is to be found in Part 7 of the Local alternative legal basis for remaining in this Government Act 1994 and the Local jurisdiction the issue of permission to remain will Government (Bye Laws) Regulations 1995, that be considered — but only in the context of a the making of by-laws in relation to this particular Ministerial proposal to deport them. If, in the issue is a matter for each local authority and that light of representations received and the range of no ministerial confirmation is necessary. Any factors set out in section 3(6) of the Immigration proposals to amend that legislative framework Act, 1999, the Minister decides not to make would be a matter for the Minister for the deportation orders they will be given leave to Environment, Heritage and Local Government. remain on a humanitarian basis. Because of the In so far as my area of responsibility is large number of such cases on hand I am unable concerned, the Garda Sı´ocha´na has extensive to say at this stage when the file will be examined. powers under certain provisions of the 1994 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act to deal with Garda Stations. drink related problems wherever they occur and irrespective of the person’s age. These powers 358. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Justice, have been strengthened very significantly in the Equality and Law Reform if he will reconsider Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 2003 which his refusal to provide a 24 hour Garda station in came into force on 28 June 2003. That Act is north Kildare to serve the towns of Maynooth, designed to tackle the problem of drunken late Leixlip and Celbridge, in view of opportunities night street disturbances and provides for the now presenting in terms of a site and shared closure of premises such as pubs, off licences, late service centre; and if he will make a statement on night clubs and food premises as well the making the matter. [10771/04] of exclusion orders on individuals in addition to Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform any penalty which may already be imposed under (Mr. McDowell): I have been informed by the the 1994 Act. Furthermore, the Intoxicating Garda authorities who are responsible for the Liquor Act 2003 tightened up the law quite detailed allocation of resources including considerably in relation to the sale and supply of personnel that Maynooth and Celbridge Garda drink. With regard to the matter of the supply of stations form part of Naas district in the division drink to under-aged persons, the Act prohibits of Carlow/Kildare. Naas Garda station is open to the purchase or delivery of alcohol for 795 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 796

[Mr. McDowell.] consistent vandalism at St. Killian’s junior and consumption by a person under 18, except where senior school in Kingswood, Tallaght, Dublin 24 it is for consumption in a private residence and (details supplied). [10891/04] with the explicit consent of parents/guardians. In so far as specific measures to outlaw drinking in Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform public open spaces, such as parks and green (Mr. McDowell): I am informed by the Garda spaces are concerned, the provisions in the authorities that they have received one report of criminal law and intoxicating liquor laws which I burglary and one of criminal damage to the have outlined above are general in their scope school mentioned by the Deputy between 1 and effect, and as such would certainly be capable January and 14 February, 2004. I also understand of being enforced by the Garda in these from the Garda authorities that a number of situations. complaints have been received about youths loitering in the vicinity of the school at weekends and in the evenings. Local gardaı´ have responded Citizenship Applications. to these complaints and moved youths on when 360. Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for Justice, appropriate. I am assured that the area receives Equality and Law Reform the criteria and ongoing attention from mobile patrols and condition which a person from New Zealand who community gardaı´ on foot patrol and that local has lived here for the past five years, is in the Garda management are satisfied that there are course of purchasing a house here and is marrying adequate resources deployed to deal with the an Irish girl, must satisfy in order to obtain a problem mentioned by the Deputy. certificate of naturalisation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10779/04] Prison Management. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform 362. Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the Minister for (Mr. McDowell): On the assumption that the Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will person concerned does not have Irish report on his restructuring of the management of antecedents, and since he is not yet married to an Shelton Abbey and Loughan House; and the Irish citizen, it would appear that naturalisation person who is running these institutions. would indeed be the appropriate course for him [10893/04] to obtain Irish citizenship. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Section 15 of the Irish Nationality and (Mr. McDowell): Proposals to close the open Citizenship Act 1956 as amended in 1986 and centres at Loughan House and Shelton Abbey, 2001, sets out the requirements for naturalisation. which are currently operating under the control These conditions are: an applicant must be of full of a prison governor, are being kept under age; be of good character; have had a period of continuing review in the light of progress in the one year’s continuous residency in the State talks with the Prison Officers’ Association under immediately before the date of the application the auspices of the Labour Relations and, during the eight years immediately Commission. I have already indicated that, in the preceding that period, have had a total residence event of the closures going ahead, the intention in the State amounting to four years; [section 16A is to transform these two open centres into post of the said Act provides that no period of release centres for the reintegration into society residence shall be reckoned in respect of which of prisoners on conditional temporary release. an applicant does not have my permission to Neither of the two centres would be under the remain in the State or has been granted control of the Irish Prison Service. permission to remain for the purposes of study or has been seeking recognition as a refugee within Proposed Legislation. the meaning of the Refugee Act 1996]; intend in good faith to continue to reside in the State after 363. Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the Minister for naturalisation; and have made, either before a Justice, Equality and Law Reform the results of judge of the District Court in open court or in the public consultation process undertaken by his such a manner as the Minister, for special reasons Department with respect to the Garda Sı´ocha´na allows, a declaration in the prescribed manner, Bill 2004; the persons and organisations from of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State. which submissions were received; if any of the Further information and the necessary recommendations received result in changes in application forms may be obtained from my the Bill’s provisions; and if so, which. [10894/04] Department’s website — www.justice.ie —orby Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform telephoning the citizenship section helpline on (Mr. McDowell): Around 15 persons and Tuesdays or Thursdays between 10:00 a.m. to organisations responded to the invitation to make 12:30 p.m. at Lo-call 1890 551 500 or (01) submissions in relation to the scheme of the 6167700. Garda Sı´ocha´na Bill published last July. In addition, views were received from Garda Garda Investigations Commissioner, the Attorney General, and the 361. Mr. Crowe asked the Minister for Justice, Director of Public Prosecutions when the scheme Equality and Law Reform if there has been of the Bill was first published. During the drafting 797 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 798 process there were consultations with Garda position to agree a final text. At that time I will management, meetings with a number of the seek the approval of the Government and the Garda associations, the Joint Oireachtas Houses of the Oireachtas to it. Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights, the Department of the Prison Management. Environment, Heritage and Local Government 365. Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the Minister for and there was continual consultation with the Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will make Office of the Attorney General. The individuals a statement on the reports of the prison and bodies who made submissions were 1: Mr. inspectorate with respect to Fort Michael, Brian B Waters, member of Amnesty Wheatfield and Loughan House. [10896/04] International; 2: Mr. Philip Cronin; 3: Mr. Michael Kearney; 4: Mr. Brendan Cafferty; 5: Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Fingal Development Board; 6: Irish Council for (Mr. McDowell): I understand that the Inspector Civil Liberties; 7: Dr. Barry Vaughan; 8: Deputy of Prisons and Places of Detention is currently Aengus O´ Snodaigh, Sinn Fe´in; 9: Mr. Jim preparing his second annual report. The report Desmond; 10: Mr. Tim O’Leary, Listowel Town will be submitted to me and published in due Council; 11: Professor Dermot Walsh, University course by my Department. of Limerick; 12: Cork County Council; 13: Garda The Inspector of Prisons and Places of superintendents; 14: Mr. Dan Danaher, Irish Detention has carried out a number of south-west branch NUJ; and finally, 15: the inspections since his first annual report was Human Rights Commission. published last year. His reports of inspections at All the submissions were welcome, were given the places of detention at Fort Mitchel and due consideration and contributed to the process. Loughan House and at Wheatfield Prison were The Deputy will be aware that the final Bill as recently published on my Department’s published in February builds upon and in some website—www.justice.ie. The inspector made a respects differs from the original scheme. I am number of recommendations in these reports currently considering amendments arising from aimed at improving services and conditions in the points made by Senators during the Second Stage relevant institutions. Some of the Debate on the Bill in the Seanad. It would not be recommendations have been implemented and feasible to try and link all the changes made to others will be implemented as resources permit. particular submissions received. The Deputy will be aware that Fort Mitchel Place of Detention closed on 10 February 2004 Anti-Racism Measures. due to the failure to reach agreement with the 364. Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the Minister for Prison Officers Association on a change agenda Justice, Equality and Law Reform the aimed at eliminating overtime payments and Government’s position on the EU Framework reducing other costs in the Irish Prison Service. Decision on Combating Racism and Xenophobia; Fort Mitchel will resume its role as a closed if the Government support the proposal; if not, detention centre in the event that agreement is the reasons therefor. [10895/04] reached with the Prison Officers Association. Implementation of longer-term recommendations Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform made by the Inspector of Prisons and Places of (Mr. McDowell): The proposal for a Council Detention will be considered in the context of the framework decision on combating racism and reopening of Fort Mitchel. xenophobia was presented by the Commission in November 2001. It has been extensively debated Visa Applications. but, in April 2003, the then Presidency conceded that it was unable to obtain final agreement on 366. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for the proposal. In preparation for the Irish Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason a Presidency, I visited the capitals of member states person (details supplied) was refused a visa for an exchange of views with Justice and Interior application renewal; and if he will make a Ministers on many issues relevant to our statement on the matter. [10897/04] Presidency, including whether there was any Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform realistic chance that agreement could be reached (Mr. McDowell): The person in question made a on this framework decision. As it was clear to me visa application in February 2004. The application that positions had not changed, and it was was refused due to insufficient documentation as unlikely that they would change in the timeframe the full copy of the old passport not submitted. It of the Irish Presidency, I reluctantly concluded is open to the applicant to appeal against the that attempting to initiate further discussions at refusal of the visa by writing to the visa appeals this stage would divert resources which would be officer in my Department and enclosing better concentrated on issues where there was a additional supporting documentation. possibility of agreement. The current text of the framework decision, that is the text on which Water and Sewerage Schemes. agreement could not be reached in April 2003, is one with which I concurred and I hope it will not 367. Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for be too long before all member states are in a the Environment, Heritage and Local 799 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 800

[Mr. Connaughton.] of same are complete; and if he will make a Government the status of the application for a statement on the matter. [10484/04] sewerage scheme at Creggs, County Galway;; and Minister for the Environment, Heritage and if he will make a statement on the matter. Local Government (Mr. Cullen): I understand [10448/04] that South Dublin County Council, as part of the 370. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for the finalisation of this road contract, are at present in Environment, Heritage and Local Government discussions with the contractor about the the status of the application for the development completion of certain elements of this scheme. of a sewerage scheme for the village of Creggs, When these issues are resolved, the council County Galway; and if he will make a statement envisages opening the new road. on the matter. [10487/04] Question No. 370 answered with Question Minister for the Environment, Heritage and No. 367. Local Government (Mr. Cullen): I propose to take Questions Nos. 369 and 370 together. Election Management System. A preliminary report for Creggs sewerage 371. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for scheme was submitted to my Department by the Environment, Heritage and Local Galway County Council in 1999 but has not Government the steps he is taking to ensure that been approved. non-nationals can register to vote in Garda The scheme was seventeenth on the list of stations using their social welfare or GNIB sewerage schemes submitted by Galway County identity card instead of their passports which are Council in response to my Department’s request often held by the authorities or simply not to local authorities in 1998 to undertake a five available; if a standard procedure across the yearly assessment of the needs for capital water country will be adopted; and if he will make a services works in their areas and to prioritise their statement on the matter. [10488/04] proposals on the basis of the assessment. Given Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the rating afforded to the scheme by the council Local Government (Mr. Cullen): The question of at that time it has not been possible to include it the identification documents required for in the water services investment programme. The electoral purposes is under examination in my scheme is fourth in the most recent priority list of Department in consultation with the Department sewerage schemes furnished by Galway County of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Council last December in response to my Department’s request to all local authorities in 372. Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin asked the 2003 to produce updated assessments of needs. Minister for the Environment, Heritage and This latest assessment will be taken into account Local Government the number of polling stations in the framing of the next phase of the water in use in the constituency of Kerry South for the services investment programme in due course. elections in June 2004; the number which are not fully accessible to persons with disabilities; if it is Fire Stations. a statutory requirement that public notice be given of a lack of access to a polling station in 368. Mr. O’Shea asked the Minister for the advance of an election; and if he will make a Environment, Heritage and Local Government statement on the matter. [10517/04] the position regarding the provision of a new fire station at Lismore, County Waterford; and if he Minister for the Environment, Heritage and will make a statement on the matter. [10450/04] Local Government (Mr. Cullen): Electoral law provides that the returning officer must, where Minister for the Environment, Heritage and practicable, give public notice of all polling Local Government (Mr. Cullen): There is no stations, which are inaccessible to wheelchair formal and fully stated proposal before my users not later than eight days before polling day. Department from Waterford County Council for If an elector has difficulty gaining access to their a new fire station at Lismore. Under the recent polling station, the person may apply in writing review of fire station proposals, initiated by my for authorisation to vote at another polling Department with the fire authorities to assist in station in the same constituency. developing future station programmes, the The appointment of polling stations is a matter council’s assessment of its priority needs for for the appropriate returning officer. Details in future, new or upgraded fire stations included a relation to the number of polling stations planned new fire station at Lismore as the council’s third for particular elections, or of their accessibility to priority. persons with a disability, are not available in the Department. Road Network. 369. Mr. S. Power asked the Minister for the Nuclear Plants. Environment, Heritage and Local Government 373. Mr. O’Connor asked the Minister for the when the Greenhills Road, Tallaght, will be open Environment, Heritage and Local Government in view of the fact that works on the development the contacts he has had with regard to the threat 801 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 802 posed by Sellafield; the position regarding same; library in Bishopstown but that proposal did not and if he will make a statement on the matter. proceed. A revised request for approval in [10531/04] principle was received from Cork City Council in November 2003 for a branch library at Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Bishopstown; this involved a new site in the Local Government (Mr. Cullen): I refer to the Wilton Shopping Centre as the local authority reply to Questions Nos. 143 and 147 of 3 consider that the original site is no longer February 2004. The position is unchanged. suitable. This proposal is currently being Departmental Correspondence. examined in my Department. The allocation of funding does not arise at this stage of the 374. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for the planning of the project. Environment, Heritage and Local Government if he will respond to correspondence (details Fire Stations. supplied); and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10568/04] 377. Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the progress that has been made on funding for Local Government (Mr. Cullen): A reply issued a new fire engine for Aranmore Island, County to the Deputy on 5 April 2004. Donegal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10618/04] Equality Issues. Minister of State at the Department of the 375. Ms Shortall asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Mr. Gallagher): My Department and the the plans he has to regulate recruitment processes Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht to ensure that prospective employers make the Affairs have sought to conclude an agreed recruitment process transparent from the point of funding package with Donegal County Council application in view of problems highlighted in the for the provision of a fire appliance at Aranmore, case of a position (details supplied); and if he will County Donegal. take the opportunity of the next bill in this general area to incorporate such provisions into Safety Guidelines. legislation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10587/04] 378. Ms Fox asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the safety guidelines in place for the operation of Local Government (Mr. Cullen): In the case private and leisure centre swimming pools. referred to in the question, Dublin City Council [10679/04] engaged the Local Appointments Commission to undertake the initial selection process in Minister for the Environment, Heritage and accordance with its well-established procedures. Local Government (Mr. Cullen): My Department The Public Service Management (Recruitment issued safety recommendations for swimming and Appointments) Bill 2003 which is currently pools in 1986. I shall ask the Irish Water Safety before the Oireachtas will, when enacted, provide Association to review them with a view to a modern and efficient framework for public producing more modern and comprehensive service recruitment to ensure that the current guidance. high standards in recruitment and selection Local Authority Funding. procedures are maintained. This legislation will apply initially to senior administrative and 379. Mr. Hogan asked the Minister for the technical posts in local authorities which are Environment, Heritage and Local Government if currently filled by competition conducted by the it is usual for the chairman of the County and Local Appointments Commission in accordance City Managers Association to comment on the with the provisions of the Local Authorities annual financial allocations; and the statutory (Officers and Employees) Act 1926. There is also role of that organisation to do so. [10681/04] provision to extend by order the application of Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the Bill to other local authority employments. Local Government (Mr. Cullen): The association is not a statutory agency. It is normal practice for Library Projects. bodies representing local authority interests, 376. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for the including the CCMA, to comment occasionally Environment, Heritage and Local Government if on issues of relevance to local government. funding has been made available to Cork City Council for the development of a new library at Development Levies. Bishopstown, Cork, which is to be located at the 380. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Minister for the Wilton Shopping Centre. [10597/04] Environment, Heritage and Local Government if Minister for the Environment, Heritage and he will put in place a long-term financing system Local Government (Mr. Cullen): Approval in for local authorities to replace the gap that will principle first issued in October 1992 for a branch eventually be created when development returns 803 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 804

[Mr. J. Bruton.] Any church lands acquired and developed by to normal levels and a consequential reduction in private developers for residential purposes will be income from development levies takes effect. subject to the Part V social and affordable [10683/04] housing provisions.

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Elections. Local Government (Mr. Cullen): Development levies are collected by local authorities to 384. Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for contribute towards the costs of providing the Environment, Heritage and Local infrastructure and facilities associated with Government his views on whether a restriction particular development. can apply to a person holding a migrant working The issue of long term funding of local permit, who has been a resident here for more authorities generally is subject to a major than six months, from standing as a candidate in independent review of local government the local elections in June. [10743/04] financing, which, I have recently commissioned. I Minister for the Environment, Heritage and expect that the review which, is being undertaken Local Government (Mr. Cullen): Subject to the by Indecon Economic Consultants in association disqualifications set out in section 13 of the Local with the Institute of Local Government Studies, Government Act 2001, a person is eligible for will be completed in early 2005. election and membership of a local authority if he or she is a citizen of Ireland or is ordinarily Local Authority Housing. resident in the State and has or will attain the age 381. Cecilia Keaveney asked the Minister for of 18 years on or before polling day at a local the Environment, Heritage and Local election. Government about a social housing scheme application (details supplied) in County EU Directives. Donegal. [10691/04] 385. Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local 382. Cecilia Keaveney asked the Minister for Government the EU regulations or directives the Environment, Heritage and Local expected on monitoring and abatement of noise Government about a social housing scheme levels in residential areas; the existing regulations application (details supplied) in County for such noise created by construction activity; Donegal. [10714/04] and the agencies responsible for the monitoring Minister of State at the Department of the and enforcement of such regulations. [10744/04] Environment, Heritage and Local Government Minister for the Environment, Heritage and (Mr. N. Ahern): I propose to take Questions Nos. Local Government (Mr. Cullen): EU Directive 381 and 382 together. 2002/49/EC on the assessment and management Recently my Department approved the of environmental noise is required to be invitation of tenders for the projects. They will be transposed into national law by 18 July. It applies carried out under the capital funding schemes for to noise from, inter alia, industrial activity and voluntary and co-operative housing projects. major sources of road, rail and air traffic. It does not apply to noise from, inter alia, domestic Land Acquisition. activities, and noise created by neighbours and 383. Mr. Gormley asked the Minister for the at workplaces. Environment, Heritage and Local Government if Legislation governing noise disturbance from his Department will consider pursuing a policy of construction activity is provided for under the buying churches and church lands on sale; and if Planning and Development Act 2000. It enables his Department has developed a policy to deal planning authorities to impose planning with the large number of churches and lands conditions on a permission to reduce or prevent coming on the market. [10715/04] noise emissions on a case basis. Enforcement of any such conditions is a matter for the relevant Minister of State at the Department of the planning authority. Also, under the Act a Environment, Heritage and Local Government planning authority may include objectives in its (Mr. N. Ahern): The acquisition of land for development plan to reduce or prevent noise housing is a matter for the relevant housing emissions. Where this is done development authority. My Department is aware that local control decisions must be made by reference to authorities and voluntary housing bodies have in the development plan objectives. the past obtained land from diocesan authorities Section 107 of the Environmental Protection and religious orders for housing developments at Agency Act 1992 provides local authorities with no cost or at below market value. Local powers to require measures to be taken to authorities will continue to accept lands for prevent or limit noise from any premises, housing made available on this basis with due processes or works. The EPA has power to cognisance to the best use of their resources and control an activity for which a licence is required value for money in the provision of low cost under the integrated pollution control licensing social and affordable housing. system. 805 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 806

Under the Environmental Protection Agency Exchequer grant of \2.5 million was allocated to Act 1992 (Noise) Regulations 1994 a local the county council in 2004. It paid for authority, the EPA or any person may seek an improvements to the road between Barberstown order in the District Court to have noise giving crossroads and the Straffan Road and the road reasonable cause for annoyance abated. I am between Kill interchange and Straffan village. aware that noise in the workplace, including construction sites, is regulated under the health Local Authority Funding. and safety code, with operational responsibility 389. Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for the falling to the Health and Safety Authority. Environment, Heritage and Local Government how local authorities will meet their Fire Stations. commitments under the benchmarking scheme 386. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for the for outdoor working staff; and if his Department Environment, Heritage and Local Government if will fund same. [10904/04] he received proposals from Kildare County Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Council for the provision of a new fire station; if Local Government (Mr. Cullen): Local so, the proposed location; and if it will be a three authorities fund their expenditure, including bay, four bay or five bay station. [10745/04] expenditure on pay, from a number of sources. Minister of State at the Department of the These include specific State grants, commercial Environment, Heritage and Local Government rates, rents, fees and charges for services and (Mr. Gallagher): My Department has not general purpose grants from the local received a formal proposal from the council for a government fund. Local authorities deal with pay new station. Recently a review of proposals was costs, including benchmarking, like current initiated by my Department with fire authorities. expenditure demands through their annual The council indicated future plans for new fire budgetary process. stations at Maynooth and Monasterevin. Over recent years the funding from the local government fund was increased significantly. Water Charges. Some \752 million was allocated in general 387. Ms Enright asked the Minister for the purpose grants in 2004. It represents an increase Environment, Heritage and Local Government of 14% over the corresponding allocation for last his views on the high charges being paid by a year and is almost 121% higher than 1997. number of schools for the provision of water; and I am satisfied that the level of funding being the number of schools in the State that are provided to local authorities through general charged for water supply. [10746/04] purpose grants will make an appropriate contribution to meeting local authority current Minister for the Environment, Heritage and costs in 2004. Local Government (Mr. Cullen): The national water pricing policy framework requires local Water and Sewerage Schemes. authorities to recover the cost of providing water 390. Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for the services from the users of these services. Environment, Heritage and Local Government if Households using the services for domestic he will report on the status of Westmeath County purposes are the exception. The policy Council’s provision of a new sewerage scheme at framework provides for the full recovery of non- Castletown-Geoghegan; and if he will make a domestic water services costs and the metering of statement on the matter. [10905/04] these users by 2006. This is in accordance with an appropriate application of the polluter pays Minister for the Environment, Heritage and principle and the requirements of Article 9 of the Local Government (Mr. Cullen): The new EU water framework directive. scheme is included in a pilot programme being My Department does not collect information undertaken by the national rural water on charges. The framework only provides for the monitoring committee. It will test a range of small recovery of costs and charges should be scale wastewater collection and treatment determined having regard to this principle. systems. At present my Department is examining the revised contract documents for the Regional Road Network. Castletown-Geoghegan scheme and a number of other schemes. They will be dealt with as quickly 388. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for the as possible. Environment, Heritage and Local Government if he received a request from Kildare County Rural Social Scheme. Council for additional special funding to carry out repairs to local roads in the environs of Straffan, 391. Mr. O’Dowd asked the Minister for County Kildare, in preparation for the Ryder Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs how the Cup in 2006; and if he will give his attention to new rural social scheme will operate; and how he the special request. [10772/04] will allocate the 2,500 places. [10479/04] Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Local Government (Mr. Cullen): A special Affairs (E´ amon O´ Cuı´v): In my reply to 807 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 808

[E´ amon O´ Cuı´v.] chostas do Chomhairle Chontae Dhu´ n na nGall Questions Nos. 122, 133, 171 and 196 on 9 March chun athcho´ iriu´ a dhe´anamh ar dhromchla an I outlined the reasons that the Leader companies bho´ thair chontae go dtı´ Droichead Bhaile na Tra´ and U´ dara´s na Gaeltachta might be well ar Oilea´nA´ rann Mho´ ir. Ta´ \16,500 den deontas positioned to deliver the scheme locally. The sin fo´ slehı´oc agus ı´ocfar e´ leis an gComhairle reasons remain valid. Chontae ach na hoibreacha cuı´ a bheith My Department is developing guidelines for crı´ochnaithe chun sa´stacht mo Roinne. the scheme, including how to allocate places. I Ta´ iarratas de´anta ag Comhairle Chontae hope to publish them in the near future. Dhu´ n na nGall ar chu´ namh o´ mo Roinnse chun tuilleadh oibreacha a chur i gcrı´ch ar bho´ ithre Dormant Accounts Fund. contae ar Oilea´nA´ rann Mho´ ir. Ach na hoibreacha a bhfuil deontas ceadaithe ina leith a 392. Dr. Upton asked the Minister for bheith crı´ochnaithe, de´anfar an t-iarratas ar Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs the chu´ namh breise a mheas tuilleadh i gcomhthe´acs reason an application for dormant accounts na n-iarratas eile ata´ faighte agus an airgid ata´ ar funding from a community group (details fa´il dom le caitheamh ar fhorbairt na n-oilea´n. supplied) in Dublin 10 was not considered; and if \ he will make a statement on the matter. Nı´ miste a lua go bhfuil 931,297 ı´octha ag mo ´ [10480/04] Roinn le Comhairle Chontae Dhun na nGall i leith fheabhsu´ bho´ ithre ar Oilea´nA´ rann Mho´ ir 394. Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Minister for le se´ bliana anuas. Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if ADM will extend the deadline for applications to allow Question No. 394 answered with Question the Matt Talbot Community Trust application No. 392. (details supplied) to be considered in view of post and fax difficulties. [10689/04] Community Development. Minister of State at the Department of 395. Mr. Kenny asked the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Mr. N. Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if Ahern): I propose to take Questions Nos. 392 and representatives from the community and 394 together. voluntary sector will continue to sit on the board The Dormant Accounts Fund Disbursements of ADM in view of the recent report by Board engaged Area Development Management consultants (details supplied) on the working of Limited to administer the initial round of funding the company; if not, the reason therefor; and the on its behalf. This involves the disbursement of persons who will replace these board up to \30 million. An invitation to organisations members. [10730/04] and groups to apply for funding was advertised in 396. Mr. Kenny asked the Minister for the national newspapers on Friday 21 November Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if he 2003. The closing date for receipt of applications plans to ensure the continuance of community for this round of funding was 5 p.m. on 5 March, representation on local development groups and as advertised in the national newspapers on 20 boards; and if not, if he intends to replace it with February. Government nominees. [10731/04] According to ADM’s records no application was received from the organisation concerned by Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht the deadline. An application was received on Affairs (E´ amon O´ Cuı´v): I propose to take Monday, 29 March. Evidence has been provided Questions Nos. 395 and 396 together. of an unsuccessful attempt to fax application As mentioned in my reply to Questions Nos. details on 5 March after the 5 p.m. deadline. 100 and 102 on 9 March, the report on ADM to The delivery of applications is a matter for which the Deputy refers noted the context in applicant groups. However, the published which ADM operates and how it has changed deadline is the same for each medium, whether it significantly since its inception, in particular, a is by post, by hand, fax or e-mail. The application shift from EU to Exchequer funding. It also was not received by ADM before the published identified accountability issues arising from closing deadline and, therefore, it cannot be current structures. The report is available on my consider for the current round of funding. Department’s website. I also indicated that the Government accepted Feabhsu´ cha´in Bo´ ithre. the broad thrust of the report. ADM should be restructured to better reflect the context and 393. D’fhiafraigh Mr. Gilmore den Aire priorities that now obtain, including the Gno´ thaı´ Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta an appointment of the chair and members of the mbeidh airgead a´ chur ar fa´il i mbliana le feabhsu´ board. I do not wish to pre-empt the a dhe´anamh ar bho´ thar contae ar Oilea´nA´ rainn Government’s consideration of the matter. Mho´ r, Chontae Dhu´ n na nGall. [10617/04] However, people should have relevant Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht experience or competencies and should not be Affairs (E´ amon O´ Cuı´v): Ar 14 Bealtaine 2003, selected to represent sectoral interests. Of course cheadaigh me´ deontas \48,500 no´ 50% den persons involved in the community and voluntary 809 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 810 sector would not be precluded from being when they can in fact meet their long-term appointed by Government. liabilities. The Pensions Board is reviewing the At present I have no plans to change the funding standard in the light of experiences here selection procedures for members of local and and abroad over the past number of years. It will community development bodies. The report to me later this year. I facilitated some Government accepts that their hard work flexibility being introduced to ease employers’ deserves the highest regard. I have already burdens in the short-term pending the overall signalled to the House that it may be desirable to review. strengthen the democratic accountability of The Pensions Board is the statutory regulator agencies and service providers in the area. of occupational pensions and monitors compliance with the funding standard. The board Social Welfare Benefits. gave me the following data. During the 12 month period 1 April 2003 to 31 March 2004, 444 397. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for actuarial funding certificates were submitted to Social and Family Affairs if supplementary the board by the trustees of defined benefit welfare allowance will be awarded in the case of occupational pension schemes. Of these 98 AFCs, a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny; or 22%, certified that the schemes in question did and if an appeal will be arranged in view of the not satisfy the funding standard requirements of hardship of the case and the poor financial the Act. circumstances of the family. [10526/04] Of these 98 schemes 68 have been examined Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary and finalised by the board as follows: 54 funding Coughlan): The South Eastern Health Board was proposals are designed to ensure the scheme can contacted. The board refused the application for return to full funding within 3.5 years; and the an exceptional needs payment for replacement remaining 14 funding proposals have, in equipment on the grounds that the person accordance with the legislation I introduced in concerned should explore the possibility of repair 2003 to allow greater flexibility, a later date rather than replacement. It will consider an specified for a return to full funding. The board application for assistance towards the cost of is examining the submission of funding proposals repairs if this arises. If the person is not satisfied in respect of the remaining schemes. with the board’s decision she may lodge an appeal with the health board appeals officer. Social Welfare Benefits. 399. Mr. Murphy asked the Minister for Social Pension Provisions. and Family Affairs if the regulations can be 398. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for changed to allow an unemployed person to sign Social and Family Affairs the number of defined on for a portion of their benefit if they take a job benefit schemes that fall short of the minimum that only offers two to three hours daily. funding standard under the Pensions Act 1990; [10732/04] the proportion that it represents of all schemes Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary that have been examined; and the implications Coughlan): Unemployment benefit provides for and advice that she can offer to members of periods of involuntary unemployment. It is not pension schemes that fall short of the minimum payable in respect of any day during which a standard. [10604/04] person is engaged in insurable employment or Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary self-employment. To qualify for payment a Coughlan): The minimum funding standard that person must be unemployed, available for and applies to defined benefit occupational pension genuinely seeking work in respect of each schemes under the Pensions Act 1990 is a wind- declared day. Also, a person must be unemployed up standard. It is designed to ensure that there for at least three days in six consecutive days, are sufficient assets to meet the liabilities. The excluding Sunday, to qualify for payment of standard has served pension members well since unemployment benefit. 1990. Over the past couple of years it has come My Department administers a number of under considerable strain and there are differing schemes to assist and encourage people to take views on its appropriateness in current up part-time or full-time employment. Among circumstances. One view is that a wind-up these are the family income supplement. It is standard is not appropriate for pensions because designed to provide cash support for employees the vast majority of them do not wind-up. They on low earnings with families, preserving the require long-term investment strategies. Others incentive to take up or remain in employment in take the view that the only way to achieve circumstances where the employee might only be security of members’ benefits is to have a wind- marginally better off than if he or she claimed up standard. other social welfare payments. There is tension between the desire to ensure Subject to a minimum of 19 hours work per the security of members’ benefits in the event of week or 38 hours per fortnight and the a wind-up and the need to ensure that employers, expectation that the employment will last at least who have voluntarily set up occupational pension three months, payment is calculated at 60% of schemes, are not penalised in the short-term the difference between the family’s weekly 811 Questions— 6 April 2004. Written Answers 812

[Mary Coughlan.] Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary assessable income and the threshold amount Coughlan): Rent supplements are normally specified for the family size. calculated to ensure that a person, after the The part-time job incentive scheme is designed payment of rent, has an income equal to the rate to encourage people in receipt of long-term of supplementary welfare allowance appropriate unemployment assistance to accept an offer of to his or her family circumstances, less a part-time work in the absence of full-time minimum contribution. At present recipients are \ vacancies. Subject to a maximum of 24 hours required to pay 13 from their own resources. employment per week and regardless of earnings, In the case raised by the Deputy the amount of a standard married or single rate of PTJI is rent supplement was revised in November 2003 payable. A person may claim unemployment because the person concerned was in receipt of assistance, subject to satisfying a means maintenance payments. Rent supplement is assessment, in preference to unemployment determined by the rate of basic supplementary welfare allowance appropriate to a person’s benefit. circumstances. Account was taken of the second The back to work enterprise allowance scheme child. A one-parent family payment was has a minimum qualification of three years subsequently increased to the level appropriate to unemployed. The back to work allowance scheme a person with two children. The adjustment also has a minimum qualification of five years affected the amount of rent supplement payable. unemployed. Both schemes are available to people who wish to take up self-employment or 401. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the reason a person (details insurable employment for at least 20 hours per supplied) in County Kildare was refused clothing week. allowance for two of their children who shall Further information on the above schemes may make their confirmation and first communion. be obtained at any of my Department’s local [10750/04] offices. I do not intend to change the unemployment benefit scheme at this time. Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary Coughlan): The South Western Area Health 400. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Social Board refused the application for an exceptional and Family Affairs the reason a person (details needs payment because the level of household supplied) in County Kildare has had their rent income was considered to be sufficient to provide support reduced when they received child for the expenses in question. If the person dependant allowance in respect of their second concerned is not satisfied with the decision they child; and if this is the normal practice. may lodge an appeal with the health board [10733/04] appeals officer.