Official Hansard No

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard No. 13, 2003 WEDNESDAY, 15 OCTOBER 2003

FORTIETH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—SIXTH PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE

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CONTENTS

WEDNESDAY, 15 OCTOBER Business— Rearrangement...... 16443 Communications Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 3) 2003— Second Reading...... 16443 In Committee...... 16449 Third Reading...... 16450 Business— Rearrangement...... 16450 Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Amendment Bill 2003 and Offshore Petroleum (Safety Levies) Bill 2003— Second Reading...... 16450 In Committee...... 16456 Business— Rearrangement...... 16465 Trade Practices Amendment (Personal Injuries and Death) Bill 2003— Second Reading...... 16465 Matters of Public Interest— Australian Broadcasting Corporation ...... 16484 Rural and Regional Australia: Unemployment...... 16488 Immigration: Visas ...... 16490 Defence: Expenditure...... 16492 Vet er a ns’ Affairs Portfolio...... 16496 Fisheries: Southern Bluefin Tuna ...... 16498 Questions Without Notice— Corporate Law Economic Reform Program...... 16501 Roads: Scoresby Freeway...... 16502 Corporate Law Economic Reform Program...... 16503 Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service ...... 16504 Immigration: Visas ...... 16505 Defence: Property...... 16506 Business: Executive Remuneration ...... 16506 Environment: Alternative Energy...... 16508 Trade: Live Animal Exports ...... 16508 Economy: Performance ...... 16509 Agriculture: Foot-and-Mouth Disease...... 16510 Environment: Natural Heritage Trust ...... 16512 Immigration: Illegal Immigrants ...... 16512 Immigration: People-Trafficking...... 16513 Trade: Live Animal Exports— Return to Order...... 16515 Questions Without Notice: Additional Answers— Attorney-General’s: Child Sexual Offences ...... 16515 Environment: Alternative Energy...... 16517 Trade: Live Animal Exports— Return to Order...... 16517 Questions Without Notice: Take Note of Answers— Answers to Questions...... 16521 Immigration: Visas ...... 16527

CONTENTS—continued

Petitions— Environment: Great Barrier Reef Marine Park...... 16528 Constitutional Reform: Senate Powers...... 16528 Immigration: People-Smuggling ...... 16528 Child Abuse...... 16529 Medicare...... 16529 Education: Higher Education ...... 16529 Notices— Presentation ...... 16530 Committees— Selection of Bills Committee—Report...... 16533 Notices— Postponement ...... 16534 Science: Chief Scientist ...... 16534 Military Detention: Guantanamo Bay...... 16537 Human Rights: China ...... 16538 First Atomic Test: 50th Anniversary...... 16538 Science Meets Parliament...... 16539 Immigration: People-Smuggling...... 16539 Immigration: Visa Approvals...... 16539 Notices— Postponement ...... 16539 Nuclear Disarmament ...... 16539 Committees— Economics Legislation Committee—Extension of Time ...... 16540 Sport: Rugby League ...... 16540 Committees— Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee—Meeting...... 16540 Matters of Public Importance— Consumer Debt...... 16540 Committees— Scrutiny of Bills Committee—Report ...... 16554 Public Works Committee—Report ...... 16554 Documents— World Trade Organisation ...... 16555 Parliamentary Zone— Proposal for Works ...... 16557 Australia-United States Free Trade Agreement ...... 16557 Regulation of Genetically Modified Foods— Return to Order...... 16557 Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 7) 2003— Consideration of House of Representatives Message...... 16558 Committees— ASIO, ASIS and DSD Committee—Reference...... 16558 Employment, Workplace Relations and Education References Committee—Report ..16558 Business— Rearrangement...... 16560 Superannuation (Surcharge Rate Reduction) Amendment Bill 2003— Consideration of House of Representatives Message...... 16561

CONTENTS—continued

Documents— Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation ...... 16573 National Occupational Health and Safety Commission ...... 16575 Adjournment— Defence: HMAS Parramatta ...... 16576 Telstra: Privatisation...... 16578 Immigration: Sex Industry...... 16581 Documents— Tabling...... 16582 Questions on Notice— Natural Heritage Trust and National Action Plan for Salinity and Water Quality: Facilitator Positions—(Question No. 1519) ...... 16584 Defence: Depleted Uranium—(Question No. 1631) ...... 16585 Defence: Winnellie Logistics Facility—(Question No. 1823)...... 16586 Papua New Guinea and West Papua: Logging—(Question No. 1966)...... 16587 Science: Chief Scientist—(Question Nos 2008 and 2009)...... 16587 Foreign Affairs: Country Briefs—(Question No. 2016)...... 16588 Education, Science and Training: Institute of Public Affairs—(Question No. 2055)...16588 Education: Abuse in Schools—(Question No. 2108) ...... 16589 Nuclear Energy: Waste Storage—(Question No. 2109) ...... 16591

Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16443

Wednesday, 15 October 2003 munications Legislation Amendment Bill ————— (No. 3) 2003. I do not know quite what this means, but I think it does mean that the The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. government is in a mess on superannuation. Paul Calvert) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., Clearly it is not ready— and read prayers. Senator Ferguson interjecting— BUSINESS Senator MACKAY—I do not think this is Rearrangement amusing. These are chamber management Senator COONAN (New South Wales— issues. My point is that, if that is the way the Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treas- Senate is going to run, that is the way the urer) (9.30 a.m.)—I move: Senate is going to run. I do not think it is a That intervening business be postponed till af- very good signal for the rest of the year, par- ter consideration of government business order of ticularly when the government wants coop- the day no. 4 (Communications Legislation eration with respect to its legislation pro- Amendment Bill (No. 3) 2003). gram. At the moment we have very few bills, Question agreed to. and that is an issue that I think people ought COMMUNICATIONS LEGISLATION to be aware of. Recently the government AMENDMENT BILL (No. 3) 2003 gave notice of a motion to exempt eight bills Second Reading from the cut-off because of its lack of legislation. We have a hole in the legislation pro- Debate resumed from 21 August, on mo- gram and now we have this issue occurring tion by Senator Hill: today whereby the government brings on a That this bill be now read a second time. bill with no notice given to the opposition, Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (9.32 and our shadow minister is not here at the a.m.)—We were not aware that the Commu- moment. This will be taken up, and I do not nications Legislation Amendment Bill (No. think it is an appropriate way to behave. We 3) 2003 was being put on this morning. were expecting the Superannuation (Sur- Senator Lightfoot—Are you seeking charge Rate Reduction) Amendment Bill leave to make a personal statement? 2003 to come on. Everybody is here ready to do superannuation. Just because the govern- Senator MACKAY—No, I am talking on ment cannot get its act together with respect the bill, Senator Lightfoot. Before I get to the to this set of bills does not mean it should substantive issue of the bill, I would like to display this level of discourtesy to the other make a point with respect to the management parties in the Senate. of the chamber. The opposition were not advised that this bill was coming on first thing Senator LUDWIG (Queensland) (9.34 this morning. We were advised that we were a.m.)—I rise to talk about the Communica- going to be dealing with superannuation. If tions Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 3) this is the way the government wants to run 2003. What I actually would like to talk this chamber, that is fine, but I do not regard about is the lack of communication from the it as an appropriate way to behave. We were government with respect to their legislative told that superannuation was coming on first program. It seems to be that the communica- thing, and Senator Sherry was here. I do not tion in this chamber has broken down from blame the duty minister. Senator Coonan was the government’s side. Communication is clearly given instruction to bring on Com- integral to ensure that this place operates in a

CHAMBER 16444 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 smooth and efficient way. The government about. As a consequence, if there is a slight can help to ensure that this place operates in hiccup in the program then we get a very late an efficient way. The government have today change or an amendment which affects our demonstrated their lack of communication, ability to deal appropriately with the legisla- which has caused both the opposition whip tion. and now me to talk about communication. We are fortunate that we do have available We can talk about communication for a long this morning the relevant people, as I under- time, but we are a cooperative opposition. stand it, to talk on the communications legis- We really would expect the government to lation bill. I am not sure whether the gov- get in order, to be able to inform us with rea- ernment has the relevant people here to talk sonable opportunity which bill is going to on the communications bill. Is Senator come on in this place. Coonan, the minister in the chamber, going What I think, in truth, is that this govern- to talk on the communications bill? If the ment does not have a legislative program and minister who is going to talk on this bill is does not have a bill to debate properly in this not in the chamber then perhaps they should house. This government is getting legislation be, to at least explain why it is necessary to out of its back pocket so that we can talk bring on the bill for debate now. The opposi- about it today. The communication bill has tion would like to have the opportunity to been drawn out of its back pocket and understand why this bill is being brought on thrown on the table. I have just been told that now. I understand that there were a number the government was told at 9.26 a.m. today of issues relating to the superannuation bill that in fact it was not going to bring on for that needed to be dealt with. debate the three bills that were listed on the Senator Coonan—If you sit down and red—that is, the Superannuation (Surcharge stop raving, I’ll tell you. Rate Reduction) Amendment Bill 2003, the Senator LUDWIG—I will take that inter- Superannuation (Government Co- jection, because I am not raving. If you want contribution for Low Income Earners) Bill me to take up time then I will. 2003 and the Superannuation (Government Co-contribution for Low Income Earners) Senator Coonan—You’re asking for an (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2003. In- explanation and I’m willing to give it. stead it found a fourth bill, the Communica- Senator LUDWIG—In respect of your tions Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 3) comments, you are exciting the opposition to 2003, in its back pocket to talk about today say that this is an abomination and misman- in the resumption of the second reading de- agement. If you want to admit to the mis- bate. management then I am happy for you to It appears, and I have thought it all along, stand up and say, ‘I’m mismanaging this that in terms of communication this govern- chamber on behalf of the government.’ If that ment has been unable or unwilling to talk is what you want to do then that is what you about its legislation in this chamber. We find should do, rather than accusing us of raving. either one of two things. Either the govern- It is unacceptable in this chamber to bring in ment is incompetent and cannot manage its legislation and change it when you have a program—and I am happy for the govern- red. The chamber has to work efficiently and ment to admit to that—especially in relation effectively, and we are happy to manage it to communication legislation or it does not with you and cooperate with you in respect have sufficient bills in this house to talk of this program. But if you are going to act

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16445 like this then there will not be any coopera- rats an opportunity, but it certainly is not tion at all and we will see how this chamber appropriate to blame the government for this works then. last-minute request. I do not think that any- Senator COONAN (New South Wales— thing is served by me continuing to make Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treas- remarks or respond in kind to Senator urer) (9.39 a.m.)—by leave—The indigna- Ludwig. I am sure he would not have made tion of the opposition would be entirely war- the remarks he did had he been aware of the ranted were it not for the fact that at 9.26 explanation that I have now given and the a.m. the government received a request for a clarification as to how this has been ap- rearrangement of the business, and I was proached. given the message as I was literally rising to Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (9.41 my feet. The request for rearrangement came a.m.)—by leave—I would like to respond to from the Democrats, not from the govern- that explanation with a short statement of my ment. Obviously the government endeavours own. The problem is not with Senator Lundy to accommodate all of its colleagues in the here; it is with the Democrats. It is about the chamber. It is certainly not the way in which superannuation legislation. Despite knowing the government normally runs its business for days that this was coming up, our di- and it is certainly not the way in which the lemma is about continuing with the package whips normally run the business. Unfortu- that the government and the Democrats have nately, as I understand it, this was not raised worked out to cut superannuation tax rates by the Democrats at the whips meeting, for rich people and have co-payments for which would have been the ordinary course some poorer people. But there has also been by which to alert the government, the oppo- a breakthrough with the Labor Party coming sition and indeed all parties to the need to on board to remove discrimination against rearrange the business. Had it been done same-sex couples and dependent partners in then, I would have thought that, in the coop- most of the areas of superannuation. erative way in which the chamber normally This is breakthrough legislation for the na- runs, to assist everyone who needs to speak tion. The House of Representatives, that is in the chamber and to run the agenda in an the government, has rejected that amendment orderly way, we would have had an agree- to get rid of discrimination in superannuation ment that it be done so. and I have no doubt that is causing a great The government very much regrets that deal of heartache with the Democrats. But I this request came in a way that simply did just want to take this opportunity, because not provide an opportunity, with the bells the decision obviously has not been made, to already ringing, to properly alert the opposi- say that the Democrats must stand firm and tion and all other honourable senators to the united on that. An artificial split is a cave-in. need to rearrange the business. I did want to The party as a whole must stand firm. They take the opportunity—and I thank the Senate have been champions in getting rid of dis- for its indulgence—to provide a point of crimination in superannuation. The moment clarification. It was certainly not an intended is there now. The Labor Party has come on discourtesy on the part of the government. It board and the Democrats must stand firm on is not the way in which the government ei- that. Then the government has to take the ther desires to, or would normally, run its pain of considering what it is going to do. I business. It was unavoidable and, in the cir- would advise the Democrats strongly not to cumstances, reasonable to give the Democ- take the pain themselves.

CHAMBER 16446 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Senator Boswell—Why don’t you join Murphy, there is Senator Harradine, there is the Democrats if you want to run with them? Senator Brown and there is Senator Harris. If you want to run with the Democrats, take There are other senators who are not mem- out an application. They are quite capable of bers of the Australian Democrats or the La- thinking for themselves. bor opposition. Senator BROWN—You will see from Senator Lundy—And Senator Lees. Senator Boswell’s outburst there exactly Senator SHERRY—Senator Lees, that is what I mean: transfer the difficulty of mak- right—I forget what her party is called. I ing this decision of imposing and continuing think it is a gross discourtesy to other sena- discrimination onto the government. Listen tors in the chamber who were expecting the to them go to town over this. The Democrats three surcharge bills and the attached mes- will come out of this very strongly if they do sages to be dealt with. It is a gross discour- that. That is my advice; that is my injunction; tesy to them because the three messages re- that is the best way to go. lating to the superannuation bills are of inter- Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (9.44 est and they may have a crucial say in the a.m.)—by leave—For the last three days my success of amendments that will be consid- office and the Labor opposition had been ered as part of the message. They may have a informed that the three messages relating to crucial say and they quite rightly deserve the superannuation bills were to be consid- consideration in terms of notice given the ered this morning first thing. Senator Coonan crucial nature of the three bills we are to has now given an explanation as to why we consider. I do not think it is reasonable. are not dealing with the three superannuation Obviously, the government traditionally in messages. She did not give an explanation this chamber lays out its program for the day, when she moved to rearrange the business albeit it is at very short notice. I do not think initially. It would have helped the chamber, I it is reasonable though when the government think, if she had explained why the govern- has known for some time that the Australian ment has had to seek a rearrangement of the Democrats are in a mess on the issue of legislative program at such short notice so same-sex couples and the superannuation that we can now deal with Communications bills we are to consider. As I understand it, Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 3) 2003. the mess has got worse as the days have gone We now have the explanation but it would on. The minister well knows that the entire have been better if it had been given when package that will be considered in the three the motion was moved. That in itself, given messages could go down if the Australian the very short notice, would have been Democrats are not clear in their position and satisfactory. are not going to vote for the government’s It is not just the Labor opposition that has package, as they have indicated apparently in to be considered here. There are other sena- writing. tors to be considered. We know the position The Labor opposition is ready and willing of the Democrats—they are in an absolute to deal with the business that we were told mess at the moment. They cannot even meet would be dealt with first. Apparently, that is in the same room on the same-sex couples not to be the case. An explanation should superannuation bills. That is the guts of the have been given when the business was re- problem they have got. But there are other ordered; it was not, but that explanation has senators in this chamber. There is Senator now been given by Senator Coonan. But at

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16447 the fundamental heart of all of this are the two-service regional television markets, problems that the Democrats have got. They datacasting transmission, digital broadcast- are huddled in meetings trying to work out ing, implementation plans of the national how to deal with the messages relating to the public broadcasters and penalties payable for superannuation bills. But Labor stands ready. certain offences under the Telecommunica- Labor will also be standing firm on its positions Act. tion in respect of the bills and the messages With regard to solus television markets, that I have enunciated on previous occasions. this is a minor technical amendment which Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (9.48 helps ensure regional broadcasters in solus a.m.)—by leave—I just want to indicate that commercial television markets can flexibly the Democrats are prepared to handle the meet options to increase their programming superannuation bills this morning for the output, including analog and digital simul- good, orderly management of the business of casts through multichannelling. This helps the Senate. I do apologise that a request was facilitate viewers receiving more services in made that these bills be put off for a short solus television markets. time and that we deal with other legislation With regard to two-service television in the meantime. Senator Sherry of course markets, this section amends the BSA to fa- takes this opportunity to suggest that we are cilitate the earlier potential availability of in a mess and cannot even meet in the same new commercial television services in re- room. All of that is rubbish. The situation is gional two-service television markets. The that we expected last night to have a re- transmission of datacasting service provi- sponse from the government on an issue that sions of the bill amend restrictions on the we had raised with them. That response was commencement dates of commercial and not forthcoming. We expected it to be forth- national public broadcaster datacasting ser- coming early this morning, and it was not. vices. These provisions, which were de- We would like to get some clarification from signed to afford some protection to non- the government as to what that response television datacasters, are no longer needed might be and when it might be coming. We as the government is no longer allocating are quite happy to deal with these bills and I datacasting licences due to its failed data- reject the nonsense that the Labor Party has casting policy, a matter that some three years just gone on with. I am sure that the Senate’s ago I foreshadowed would occur. Removing time will be usefully spent on the Communi- these restrictions will ensure that the provi- cations Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 3) sion of any datacasting services by regional 2003 and perhaps even one other until the broadcasters is not slowed. response from the government that I indi- There is an amendment dealing with the cated is available to us. requirement for variations to approved im- Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- plementation plans. The national television tralia) (9.50 a.m.)—I do have a few com- broadcasters, the ABC and SBS, are obliged ments to make that are pertinent to the to present implementation plans to the minis- Communications Legislation Amendment ter on their conversion over time from analog Bill (No. 3) 2003 on behalf of the opposition. to digital television. Variations to plans are The bill makes minor amendments to the also approved by the minister. To date, Broadcasting Services Act 1992, the Radio- around 600 services requiring conversion communications Act 1992 and the Telecom- and variations have been put forward. The munications Act 1997 in relation to solus and

CHAMBER 16448 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 amendments therefore delegate approval of arrangements are yet to be finalised for the intro- variations to the digital implementation plans duction of digital television services in remote of the national broadcasters to the secretary areas, this is likely to delay the availability of new or senior officers of the department, and services in the relevant regional markets. these are sensible amendments. The bill breaks this nexus by allowing the ABA to determine separate dates in overlapping regional With regard to penalties payable instead of and remote markets from which licensees can prosecution, this section amends the Tele- elect to provide a third service under section 38B. communications Act with regard to offences While the Democrats support such an initia- dealing with customer equipment and ca- tive, we are concerned that the ABA’s power bling. The amendments provide for a ‘penis not subject to parliamentary scrutiny. In alty in lieu of prosecution’ scheme for these the Alert Digest No. 7 of 2003, the scrutiny offences. This will help ensure a greater of bills committee drew senators’ attention to compliance with these sections, as the ACA the provision, arguing that it may be consid- will be able to more readily pursue a me- ered to insufficiently subject the exercise of dium-level regulatory response to non- legislative power to parliamentary scrutiny, compliance with customer equipment and in breach of principle 1(a)(v) of the commit- cabling laws. Labor supports this bill as it is tee’s terms of reference. non-controversial. These are all minor technical amendments designed to enhance vari- In responding to the committee’s concerns ous pieces of communications legislation. the government has raised three issues. The government has argued that subjecting a de- Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (9.53 termination under new subsection 38B(27) to a.m.)—The Communications Legislation possible disallowance would create consid- Amendment Bill (No. 3) 2003 primarily cor- erable uncertainty for the industry and the rects minor anomalies in the legislative regulator. In their response, the committee framework relating to the introduction of noted: digital services in Australia by making minor technical amendments to the Broadcasting ... the potential for uncertainty applies to all disal- Services Act, the Radiocommunications Act lowable instruments, and is in fact the price of the administrative convenience implicit in the making and the Telecommunications Act. The De- of delegated legislation. The Committee has con- mocrats agree that the amendments are sen- sistently taken the view that this, in itself, does sible amendments that improve the operation not provide sufficient reason for the Parliament to of the various pieces of legislation. However, abrogate its responsibility to properly scrutinise there is a technical problem in schedule 1 of delegated legislation. the bill that in our view needs to be ad- We would also argue that the government dressed before the Democrats will support could avoid uncertainty by stipulating that the bill. The government noted: the date applies once the determination has Under section 38B of the Broadcasting Services passed the Senate. The government further Act, commercial broadcasters in two-service re- argued: gional markets can elect to provide a third service ... such a determination is a minor procedural in digital mode. The Act currently provides that, measure which does not affect the ABA’s existing where these markets overlap with remote licence powers in a substantial way. areas, the date on which the broadcasters can elect to provide a third service under section 38B In responding to the government’s point, the is set in the context of the digital conversion ar- committee found it difficult to reconcile the rangements for the overlapping remote area. As government’s claim that the measure is a

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16449

‘minor procedural matter’ with the concern lowable instrument. While Labor are always that the potential for disallowance would cognisant of the need to ensure that legisla- cause considerable uncertainty. tive powers are not unduly handed over to The third point the government made was the executive, we feel that the powers under that determination under the subsection af- subsection (27) do not warrant becoming fects not the substance of the law, but its ap- disallowable by parliament. We support the plication. They said that ‘a determination of government’s view that the imposition of a designated time for a particular licence area parliamentary scrutiny of section 38B could commences the application’ of the scheme undermine the intent of that schedule, which for allocating additional licences. The com- is to create new services for television con- mittee argued that this is the very point that sumers in small regional markets. Applying concerns them—that the responsibility for parliamentary disallowance to this subsec- determining the time for the commencement tion would add a degree of uncertainty into of the law is delegated without provision for this process. While we sympathise with the parliamentary scrutiny. The Democrats agree Democrats’ motives and understand their with the scrutiny of bills committee’s com- concerns, in this instance we will not be sup- ments and will be moving an amendment to porting their amendment. This is due to the make 38B subject to a disallowable instru- highly technical nature of the subsection ment. concerned and our desire to see this bill passed forthwith to ensure that regional Aus- Question agreed to. tralians have more choice in their television Bill read a second time. services as soon as possible. Labor therefore In Committee opposes this amendment. Bill—by leave—taken as a whole. Senator COONAN (New South Wales— Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (9.58 Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treas- a.m.)—I move the amendment circulated urer) (9.59 a.m.)—The government opposes under the name of Senator Cherry on sheet this amendment. The minister wrote to the 3096: committee chair explaining why the ABA’s election date determination is not a disallow- (1) Schedule 1, item 10, page 5 (after line 24), at the end of the item, add: able instrument. The government recognises that the Senate Standing Committee for the (29) A determination made for the purposes of subsection (27) is a disallowable Scrutiny of Bills has reported that it consid- instrument for the purposes of section ers that the exercise of the proposed power 46A of the Acts Interpretation Act for the ABA to independently determine sec- 1901. tion 38B election dates for overlapping re- As I said in my speech in the second reading gional remote licence areas should be subject debate, this is about making a determination to parliamentary scrutiny. However, the gov- for the purposes of subsection (27) a disal- ernment remains of the view that the deter- lowable instrument for the purposes of sec- mination should not be disallowable. The tion 46A of the Acts Interpretation Act. amendments do not substantially change the nature of the ABA’s powers to determine a Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- designated date for remote areas. tralia) (9.58 a.m.)—Labor will not be supporting the Democrat amendment to make Secondly, the BSA currently provides, in determinations under subsection (27) a disal- section 38B(26)(b), that the ABA has discre- tion in determining the date from which re-

CHAMBER 16450 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 mote broadcasters can elect to provide a third That intervening business be postponed till af- service. There is at present no parliamentary ter consideration of government business order of scrutiny of the ABA’s determination under the day no. 5 (Petroleum (Submerged Lands) that provision of the BSA. A disallowance Amendment Bill 2003 and a related bill). process could also introduce considerable Question agreed to. uncertainty into licence allocation. Under PETROLEUM (SUBMERGED LANDS) section 38B the relevant licensees must elect AMENDMENT BILL 2003 to apply for an additional licence within 90 OFFSHORE PETROLEUM (SAFETY days of the date designated by the ABA. LEVIES) BILL 2003 However, given the sometimes long gaps between parliamentary sitting periods, if the Second Reading ABA’s power to designate a date were made Debate resumed from 14 October, on mo- subject to parliamentary disallowance it is tion by Senator Ellison: possible that those 90 days could expire well That these bills be now read a second time. before the end of the 30 sitting day period (Quorum formed) during which the ABA’s nomination could be Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.05 disallowed. This uncertainty could inhibit a.m.)—I might rescue the Senate for a mo- broadcasters’ interest in utilising section 38B ment, with this bill, the Petroleum (Sub- and hence undermine the intended public merged Lands) Amendment Bill 2003, com- interest outcome, which of course is the crea- ing on so suddenly to the debating agenda. tion of new services for viewers in small This bill is to do with, amongst other things, markets. So whilst the government does ap- occupational health and safety. I am at this preciate the Democrats’ perspective, I wel- moment drafting an amendment to— come the opposition stance in relation to this matter and place on record the government’s The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT reasons for opposing the amendment. (Senator Lightfoot)—Senator Brown, let me interrupt you for a moment. Would sena- Question negatived. tors on my right either resume their seats or Bill agreed to. leave the chamber. Bill reported without amendment; report Senator BROWN—You will know, Mr adopted. Acting Deputy President Lightfoot, that just Third Reading yesterday this bill was introduced; the neces- Senator COONAN (New South Wales— sary checks and balances to give time for Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treas- reference to the community were swept aside urer) (10.02 a.m.)—I move: and here we have the bill today suddenly. I That this bill be now read a third time. have just issued drafting instructions for an amendment to the principal bill which would Question agreed to. disallow seismic testing for petroleum off Bill read a third time. Australian shores. This is an urgent and criti- BUSINESS cal matter that is confronting people in Vic- Rearrangement toria and South Australia at the moment. There is widespread distress at the prospect Senator COONAN (New South Wales— of seismic testing and the impact that will Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treas- have on fisheries. It is known to disrupt fish urer) (10.03 a.m.)—I move: hatcheries and it affects the whole food chain

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16451 from microorganisms right through to the urgent need for seismic testing—and, indeed, great whales. underwater activities by navies and commer- Recently, there was some sound testing by cial shipping—to halt until we understand Spanish naval vessels off the Canary Islands. the ramifications it is having on marine eco- As that testing occurred, some whales systems. It is not a trite matter. A very major washed up and died on the beaches of the assault is occurring on those ecosystems off Canary Islands. For the first time, it was es- the Otways, in the western Bass Strait region tablished that there was damage to their hear- of Australia and along the South Australian ing apparatus. In fact, immediate autopsies coast. I have spoken to South Australian demonstrated haemorrhaging and death of Premier Rann about it. My office has com- parts of the whales’ brains and a clear con- municated our concern about this to the Vic- nection between underwater sound activities, torian Minister for Environment and Water. I including explosions, and the death of these am not aware of a response—there may have whales. been one—but the opportunity to amend this legislation at national level by simply using The same sorts of sonic booms are cur- the precautionary principle of not proceeding rently authorised by the Victorian govern- until you can show there is not an adverse ment and, I think, by the South Australian environmental impact from massive noise government—up to 200 decibels—to pene- explosions for petroleum exploration has to trate the bedrock of the ocean to allow ex- be implemented. It is reasonable, it is sensi- plorers to find the fossil fuel deposits be- ble and the Senate can take that action at this neath the ocean. If you are going to let off a stage. We have had a truncated morning in sound like that, you can expect that there is getting to this piece of legislation. I am ask- going to be major disruption to the living ing that the opportunity for my amendment marine ecosystems as a result, and it turns to be considered be taken into account. out that that is the case. Early evidence is that there is disruption, if not death, through- Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (10.11 out the food chain—right from the smallest a.m.)—I was very surprised to see this piece organisms to the greatest—and we should be of legislation come before the Senate so more prudent than to allow that to happen. quickly this morning, given its place in the order of business today. I apologise if my The amendment that I will be moving, if inability to get to the chamber at the ap- given time, would require those who are us- pointed time inconvenienced the Senate, but ing seismic testing to establish before they that was caused by the fact that there was no can proceed that it would not have a negative notice of this piece of legislation coming on impact on the marine ecosystem. At the mo- almost until the ringing of the bells for a ment, it is anything goes. We know it is dam- quorum. aging, but there are no environmental assessments—in fact, there is no adequate as- The Petroleum (Submerged Lands) sessment at all—and this is giving rise to Amendment Bill 2003 amends the Petroleum increasing alarm in the fishing industry of (Submerged Lands) Act 1967, and its pri- Australia as well as amongst environmental- mary purpose is to create a nationally consis- ists. tent occupational health and safety regime for the offshore petroleum industry by the We are way past the time when we just establishment of the National Offshore Pe- carry on until we see damage occurring be- troleum Safety Authority. Provision is also fore we stop and think about it. There is an made for the National Offshore Petroleum

CHAMBER 16452 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Safety Authority to have jurisdiction over management provisions in the act. These onshore petroleum industry sites should the provisions cover the submission of data by relevant state or territory agree. Schedule 2 petroleum owners to the regulator and the of the bill corrects a minor anomaly relating later releases of some of that data to the pub- to the GST component of certain fees levied lic. The amendments will enable the machin- on the industry, whilst schedule 3 establishes ery provisions covering both submission and new industry data management practices. release of these data to be placed in new ob- The offshore petroleum industry is strate- jective based data management regulations gically and economically important to Aus- under the act. tralia, and any serious disruption to supply Since 1967 the act has provided for the due to an accident would have major eco- regulation of all aspects of offshore petro- nomic consequences. The authority, to be leum and mining, including titles, explora- established by Commonwealth legislation, tion, production, pipelines and safety regula- will deliver a uniform, national safety regulation. Following a High Court decision in tory regime for Australia’s offshore petro- 1975 that confirmed Commonwealth juris- leum industry and will reduce the regulatory diction offshore—that is, below the low- burden faced by industry participants. We water mark—in June 1979 the Common- understand that it is to be an independent wealth and the states agreed to a division of agency, accountable to Commonwealth, state offshore powers and responsibilities, known and Northern Territory ministers, and that it collectively as the offshore constitutional will be established via an amendment to the settlement. The purpose of the settlement Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Act 1967, as was to generally maintain the states’ role in mentioned earlier. the management of offshore areas. The bill also contains amendments to the In relation to offshore petroleum arrange- occupational health and safety provisions of ments post OCS, the states and the Northern the act. These amendments will improve Territory have been granted by the Com- safety administration and outcomes for off- monwealth title to all waters, including sea- shore petroleum facilities and pipelines and bed and landward of the three nautical mile will also, importantly, reduce risks to the limit, and have the same powers to legislate environment. Amendments in the bill, when over those coastal waters as they do over mirrored by state and Northern Territory leg- their land territory. Another significant out- islation, will also provide a consistent safety come of the OCS was an amendment to con- regulatory regime across all Commonwealth fine the application of the Commonwealth waters and state and Northern Territory act to waters outside the three nautical mile coastal waters. limit, with the states and the Northern Terri- There are two further sets of amendments tory enacting mirror legislation applying in in the bill. Schedule 2 seeks to amend section waters landward of that boundary. 129 of the act to rectify an anomaly whereby Beyond the coastal waters, cooperative the full amount of fees paid by the offshore governance of the Commonwealth’s legisla- petroleum industry need to be redirected tion vests executive powers in a joint author- back to the states and the Northern Territory, ity—which is the Commonwealth minister yet the goods and services tax legislation and the relevant state or Northern Territory requires GST deductions from some of these minister in respect of each adjacent area—on fees. Schedule 3 seeks to amend the data and all major decisions affecting petroleum ex-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16453 ploration and development, with the Com- hensive and integrated risk management sys- monwealth minister’s view to prevail in the tem. This is characterised by an acceptance event of disagreement. Day-to-day adminis- that the ongoing management of safety on trative duties and regulatory functions have individual facilities is the direct responsibil- been exercised by the designated authority, ity of the operators and not the regulator, who is the relevant state or Northern Terri- whose key function is to provide guidance as tory minister. to the safety objectives to be achieved and an Until the safety authority commences op- assessment of performance against those erations on 1 January 2005, safety regulation objectives. will continue to be administered under the The operators can achieve those objec- existing legislation and arrangement. A par- tives by developing systems and procedures ticular feature of the act in its present form— that best suit their needs and agreeing these prior to 1 January 2005—is that the occupa- with the regulator. This safety case then tional health and safety requirements in forms the rules by which the operation of the schedule 7 of the act do not apply to Com- facility is governed. The safety case also monwealth waters adjacent to a state or the forms the basis for ongoing audits by the Northern Territory if the law of that state or regulator of the facility and its operation the Territory provides, to any extent, for mat- throughout its life. The safety case regime ters relating to the occupational health and has been fully operational since 1996, when safety of persons employed in the area. In detailed safety case regulations under the act, that case, the occupational health and safety underpinned by guidelines for their prepara- laws of the state or the Territory apply. As a tion and submission, came into effect. The result, each jurisdiction except Western Aus- safety case regime remains as it is and is not tralia has applied its own state or, in the case altered by this bill. It is proposed, however, of the Northern Territory, Territory occupa- to revise the regulations to clarify the operational health and safety law in its own tion of the regulations. coastal waters, and that law was applied by In August 2001, the Commonwealth gov- the Commonwealth act in Commonwealth ernment report on offshore safety, entitled waters. Western Australia has relied on the Future arrangements for the regulation of application of schedule 7 of the act. Each of offshore petroleum safety, was delivered to these laws is different. Consequently, com- the former Minister for Industry, Science and panies with offshore facilities in more than Resources. The primary conclusion of the one state or in the Northern Territory adja- review was: cent area have had to meet the requirements ... the Australian legal and administrative frame- of these different laws. Furthermore, those work, and the day to day application of this companies operating mobile facilities, such framework, for regulation of health, safety and as drilling rigs, have had to comply with dif- environment in the offshore petroleum industry is ferent requirements as their rigs move from complicated and insufficient to ensure appropri- job to job around Australia. ate, effective and cost efficient regulation of the In response to the 1988 Piper Alpha disas- offshore petroleum industry. Much would require improvement for the regime to deliver world- ter in the North Sea, the act was amended in class safety practice. 1992 to include schedule 7 and in 1995 to provide for implementation by regulations of In particular, an independent review that a safety case regime. The term ‘safety case’ formed part of the above report recom- is used to describe a sophisticated, compre- mended that a national petroleum regulatory

CHAMBER 16454 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 authority be developed to oversee the regula- We would be reluctant to deny Senator tion of safety in Commonwealth offshore Brown the opportunity to move his amend- waters. The Commonwealth view, strongly ment, and we suggest to the government that, supported by industry and employees, and before we proceed to the committee stage of the ACTU in particular, was that it would be this bill, we ascertain the status of that draft- more efficient and effective—and it would ing so that, if it is intended to proceed to the reduce the regulatory burden—to have a sin- committee stage, we do not do so in a way gle national agency covering both Com- that would prejudice any senator’s opportu- monwealth waters and state and Northern nity to put an amendment to the Senate for Territory coastal waters, a view subsequently consideration. shared by states and the Northern Territory. Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (10.22 The Ministerial Council on Mineral and a.m.)—I indicate Democrat support for the Petroleum Resources subsequently endorsed legislation. The Petroleum (Submerged a set of principles for regulation of safety of Lands) Amendment Bill 2003 will make long petroleum activities in Commonwealth wa- overdue changes to the way in which occu- ters and state and Northern Territory coastal pational health and safety issues are man- waters in Australia and agreed that the coun- aged and regulated on offshore petroleum cil’s standing committee of officials would facilities. At present the states and the North- examine how best to improve offshore safety ern Territory regulate occupational health outcomes, primarily through a single joint and safety issues associated with offshore national safety agency. This work led to the petroleum operations in their coastal waters. agreement upon which this bill is based. With respect to Commonwealth waters, the The safety authority will function as a Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Act 1967 al- regulator of occupational health and safety in lows the states and the Northern Territory to relation to offshore petroleum facilities and extend their OH&S laws to offshore petro- offshore petroleum diving operations in leum activities in adjacent Commonwealth Commonwealth and designated coastal wa- waters. I understand that all jurisdictions ters. Individual states or the Northern Terri- except Western Australia have exercised this tory may also confer powers on the safety option. As a result, operators of offshore pe- authority under the onshore legislation of the troleum facilities are subject to a range of state or Territory in respect of particular pe- different OH&S laws in relation to offshore troleum operations. Where this occurs, this petroleum operations in Australian waters. bill authorises the authority to exercise those This creates a confusing situation for work- powers. In acting under state or Northern ers and employees and imposes unnecessary Territory ‘onshore’ legislation, the authority costs on operators. will be entirely subject to the governance I also indicate that the Democrats would arrangements established by that legislation. like to see this bill go into committee, even Labor support this bill, which we note en- though we do not ourselves have an amend- joys the support of all industry players and ment. There are some practices which I the support of the ACTU. With regard to would like the minister to clarify with regard Senator Brown’s comments about an to what is being proposed on occupational amendment which is in the process of being health and safety issues relating to the re- drafted, I personally knew nothing of that moval of naturally occurring radioactive ma- proposition before it was announced today. terial, otherwise known as scale, on pipes and so forth.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16455

This bill will enable the establishment of advice and I was assured that we could go on uniform occupational health and safety laws with the next bills. This did, however, leave for offshore petroleum operations throughout some communications undone. Australian waters. It will also establish a sin- I think Senator Ludwig would admit that gle OH&S regulator for these activities, on most occasions communications between namely the National Offshore Petroleum the parties are excellent. We try to advise Safety Authority. This will be facilitated by each other with plenty of notice about the enactment of mirror state and Northern changes to the program—which does change Territory legislation after this bill has been quite regularly—but this change was at very passed. The creation of the National Off- late notice to the government. Clearly it is shore Petroleum Safety Authority and the hard for all parties to have to change speak- establishment of uniform OH&S laws in ers at the last moment when you come into Australian waters is a very important initia- the place expecting to do one bill and are tive which the Commonwealth and the states told, ‘We are going to do another.’ Having should be applauded for, as should the said that, I am very pleased that the Senate ACTU and the industry groups that have has been able to make good use of the first been involved in these changes. Workers on hour this morning in dealing with some im- offshore petroleum facilities face many dan- portant measures. Of course, none is more gers. If administered appropriately, this new important than the Petroleum (Submerged regime should allow for the improvement of Lands) Amendment Bill 2003 and associated safety conditions associated with these ac- bill. tivities. Senator Crossin—Keep going. You’ve Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western got 18 minutes left—talk it out. Unless you Australia—Minister for Local Government, tell us what’s happening, we don’t know Territories and Roads) (10.25 a.m.)—It is what’s going on. very good to be here to close the debate on Senator IAN CAMPBELL—That is not the Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Amend- what I am here to do; I am here to close the ment Bill 2003 and on the Offshore Petro- debate. I was making a very frank apology to leum (Safety Levies) Bill 2003, which is an the Manager of Opposition Business, taking associated bill. Mr Acting Deputy President, the opportunity do so in summing up on this when you looked around the Senate for bill. I thank those senators who have con- speakers on this bill and looked my way I tributed to the debate on these measures— was engaged in conversation with the Man- measures that will establish the National Off- ager of Opposition Business in this place, shore Petroleum Safety Authority. This will Senator Joseph Ludwig, and we were dis- increase certainty for a very important Aus- cussing the last-minute changes to the pro- tralian industry. It will ensure that there is a gram this morning. I take this opportunity to consistent safety regulatory regime across all put on record my apologies, as Manager of Commonwealth waters and state and North- Government Business, to the opposition. Af- ern Territory coastal waters. ter the bells rang to summon us to the chamber this morning we were informed by par- The establishment of the authority repre- ties who had an interest in item No. 1 on the sents a major achievement by the govern- program, which deals with some superannua- ment in responding to the wishes and needs tion matters, that they were not ready to proof the offshore petroleum industry, and of the ceed with that debate. It was very last-minute work force in this unique and important in-

CHAMBER 16456 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 dustry, in relation to safety regulation. As foreshadow an amendment, which is coming you would recall, Mr Acting Deputy Presi- very rapidly, to the Petroleum (Submerged dent, it was an election promise made prior Lands) Amendment Bill 2003 to accompany to the last election in 2001—a commitment the amendments that we have before us. That to Australia’s offshore petroleum industry amendment is to ensure that seismic testing and all of those outstanding Australians who or other use of sound in the search for petro- work in that industry—to deliver this uni- leum and other minerals under the ocean form national safety regulatory regime to floor is not proceeded with until it is shown improve safety outcomes and reduce the that it is not injurious to the marine ecosys- regulatory burden faced by industry. It is in tem. I pointed to the concern that there is essence a win-win measure. It means a safer amongst environmentalists and fisheries environment for an important industry and about the current go-ahead for seismic test- will at the same time lighten the regulatory ing in the Otway Basin off western Victoria burden. and southern South Australia. I think all Australians, particularly those It is no small matter. The massive explo- who are driving around in their vehicles on sions set off on the sea floor would be the roads of Australia listening to the parlia- enough to burst the eardrums of any of us mentary news network this morning—who sitting here. That is because they are aimed are in fact burning the fuel that is often to penetrate the sea floor and many hundreds brought to the shore from the petroleum in- of metres underneath to discover if there are dustry—can drive happily in the knowledge fossil fuels in the submarine earth. The prob- that the fuel that they rely on, and quite often lem is that these explosions are rapidly being take for granted, is, as a result of these meas- recognised as creating havoc for the marine ures being discussed in the national parlia- ecosystem, from the micro-organisms and ment today, going to get there in a better the spawning fish in the hatcheries—it way. Those who are involved in the impor- causes damage to the hatcheries—right tant business of extracting the petroleum through to any mature fish and, of course, products on offshore rigs through the off- whales which are in the region of these ex- shore petroleum industry can do so under a plosions. much safer environment. Again, I do repeat I just repeat that in the Canary Islands re- my thanks to senators for their contributions cently there was a big breakthrough pointing to this debate. I wish the bill a speedy pas- to the death of whales. There was underwater sage and reiterate my apologies to opposition testing by the Spanish navy of very loud and other senators for the late rearrangement sounds. Immediately, a number of whales of the program earlier this morning. washed up on the shore. An autopsy was held Question agreed to. and it was found that they had haemorrhag- Bill read a second time. ing of their brain, particularly their auditory systems, which had left them unable to func- In Committee tion. They died as a direct result of the mas- PETROLEUM (SUBMERGED LANDS) sive sound explosions or sound technologies AMENDMENT BILL 2003 which were being used by the Spanish navy. Bill—by leave—taken as a whole. I do not know the exact quantity of noise Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.31 used there but I suspect that it was much less a.m.)—In the second reading debate, I did than that being used by the seismic testers of the two companies currently operating in the

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16457

Otway Basin. Yet there has been no envi- South Australian Premier Rann about this ronmental impact assessment. matter late last year, if not earlier this year. I I wrote to the Victorian Minister for the wrote to Mr Thwaites and said: Environment, Mr Thwaites, last week and I am very concerned by news that seismic test- asked him to put an immediate halt to this ing is being contemplated along Victoria’s west- seismic testing. As far as we know, it is very ern coastline. There is rapidly growing evidence destructive of the marine ecosystem. We are that such testing is dangerous to the marine ecosystem, from the smallest creatures to the great now in the year 2003, where there is world- whales. I hope you will not license the tests wide concern about the collapse of fisheries unless and until the proponents have shown it to and indeed about the status of the great be harmless. whales. Remember that this region hosts a It is that sentiment that is incorporated into number of whale species, including in this this amendment. breeding system the greatest living creature ever on the face of planet—much bigger than Senator O’Brien pointed out that the bill any of the dinosaurs—the great blue whale. I effectively gives the states control out to the think that it is just derelict of us as a nation three-mile limit and the Commonwealth con- not to apply the precautionary principle here. trol beyond that. This is the absolutely ap- Even if people are not concerned about the propriate opportunity for us to bring in an environment, the economic ramifications are extremely urgent environmental constraint considerable. on the unlimited use of seismic testing in our marine ecosystems until the proponents can The amendment I am putting forward show that it is not having the damaging ef- reads: fects that are demonstrated worldwide in the (1) Schedule 1, page 3 (before line 7), be- use of these harmful technologies. I move fore item 1, insert: the amendment standing in my name on 1A After subsection 33(1) sheet 3133: Insert: (1) Schedule 1, page 3 (before line 7), before (1A) It is a specific condition of a per- item 1, insert: mit that seismic testing or other activities using 1A After subsection 33(1) sound to determine offshore petroleum or other mineral deposits are not permitted unless demon- Insert: strated to the Commonwealth Minister to not (1A) It is a specific condition of a permit have a negative impact on ecosystems or living that seismic testing or other activities species. using sound to determine offshore That is self-explanatory. It is eminent com- petroleum or other mineral deposits are not permitted unless demonstrated to monsense, and it is just pure reason that we the Commonwealth Minister to not pass such an amendment. I commend it very have a negative impact on ecosystems strongly to the Senate and I would be very or living species. pleased to hear from the government the Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (10.37 concerns that they have about this deleteri- a.m.)—The Democrats are likewise very ous impact that there is on the environment. concerned about the impact of seismic test- Finally, I will just read to the Senate the ing on the marine environment, particularly letter that I wrote on 1 October to Mr on marine mammals. We know that there is a Thwaites, the Victorian minister for the envi- growing body of evidence that seismic test- ronment. I remind senators that I spoke to ing has very adverse impacts on many ma-

CHAMBER 16458 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 rine species, including a number of threat- and sample data that is given to designated ened species such as the blue southern right authorities. Broadly, part IIIA of the PSL act and humpback whales. In the light of this currently provides that the minister and des- evidence, the government should take imme- ignated authorities—in other words, relevant diate steps to minimise the environmental state ministers—cannot disclose this infor- impacts of seismic testing. So we will be mation until after the application has been pleased to support Senator Brown’s amend- determined, the prescribed period of time has ment. expired, the applicant has made the informa- We are not entirely sure that the Petroleum tion publicly known or the applicant has (Submerged Lands) Amendment Bill 2003 is given written consent to the disclosure of the the most appropriate place for this issue to be information. dealt with. The Petroleum (Submerged There is an objection and review proce- Lands) Act is administered by the Minister dure for applicants who do not want the infor Industry, Tourism and Resources and it is formation to be disclosed after the relevant intended to ensure that Australia’s petroleum nondisclosure period has expired and it in- resources are developed in an efficient man- cludes avenues for appeal to be made to the ner. A more appropriate place for environ- Administrative Appeals Tribunal. Schedule 3 ment measures is, of course, the Environ- of this bill will alter these disclosure re- ment Protection and Biodiversity Conserva- quirements by prohibiting the public disclo- tion Act and a strategic assessment is, I un- sure of all information unless it is done in derstand, currently being undertaken on accordance with the regulation. In other seismic testing under that act. This is indeed words, it removes the public disclosure long overdue. At the completion of this as- power from the act and provides for disclo- sessment, we ought to be in a better position sure requirements to be prescribed in the to develop appropriate management meas- regulations. This is a less than ideal situation. ures which can be incorporated into the act Public disclosure procedures should, as a or the regulations. However, given the gov- matter of principle, be included in the pri- ernment’s failure to institute appropriate mary legislation. measures in a timely manner under the act, Furthermore, the Democrats are highly we will support this amendment. supportive of the notion of ensuring that in- Before allowing this to go to a vote there formation held by the government is made are some other matters that I want to raise for available to the public. We recognise that, in which I do not have amendments. One aspect this instance, there is a need to balance the of the bill that we have concerns about is need for an incentive to undertake petroleum schedule 3, which will change the arrange- exploration against the need for public dis- ments for the management and public disclo- closure. In addition, a considerable amount sure of information associated with titles of data on petroleum exploration and devel- granted under the act. The introduction of a opment is available on the public registers system for the preparation of data manage- that are maintained by the designated au- ment plans is positive and it should allow for thorities and the Commonwealth. The De- an improvement in the way in which data is mocrats have discussed this issue with the collected, stored and presented. However, minister’s office and we thank the minister schedule 3 of this bill contains provisions for his cooperation in this respect. We have that concern the public disclosure of infor- been provided with a copy of the draft regu- mation associated with applications for titles lations that relate to data disclosure and they

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16459 largely mirror the existing provisions of the not having given us a copy of the amend- act. At this point, I ask whether the minister ment beforehand, although it is noteworthy could confirm that the regulations will be that the bill was on the red for today and we made in substantially the same form as those had not seen or heard of the amendment be- that were drafted. fore Senator Brown spoke this morning. I would also ask that the minister confirm In the circumstances, we have been keen an issue that I raised earlier in the debate, to look at the context of the amendment, to which was that of what I understand to be understand what it means and, in the light of inconsistent regulations with regard to occu- the comments of Senator Brown this morn- pational health and safety for the removal of ing, to look very carefully at the words. radioactive material from equipment on pe- Frankly, we take these words as an effective troleum facilities. This is naturally occurring ban on seismic testing. The amendment says: radioactive material, which accumulates on ... seismic testing or other activities using that equipment, otherwise known as scale. It sound— is my understanding that there are quite whatever they may be— stringent protection measures in place for ... are not permitted unless demonstrated to the workers at some rigs, but at others it is quite Commonwealth Minister to not have a negative different. Some workers are fully fitted out in impact on ecosystems or living species. protective gear and in other places this is not They are very broad terms. The interpreta- the case. Minister, will this legislation ad- tion of the term ‘negative impact’ allows, I dress that? Will we see not the lowest com- think, a very broad interpretation, which mon denominator being applied here to those would suggest that any impact which could standards but worker protection consistent be seen to have any deleterious effect what- and consistently high across the board? It soever, however small, would require the would be useful to know if this is the Com- minister to say that it had not been demon- monwealth’s intention. strated that the seismic or other sound activi- Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (10.43 ties did not have a negative impact on a liv- a.m.)—The opposition has now seen Senator ing species. We are making those comments Brown’s amendment to the Petroleum (Sub- having only seen the amendment today, but merged Lands) Amendment Bill 2003. I have this is a very significant proposal and it taken the opportunity of speaking with Mr would have a significant impact on the ex- Fitzgibbon, the Labor shadow minister in ploration industry. Perhaps had it been con- this area, with a view to ascertaining the de- sidered more fully, other words might have gree of consultation that has taken place and been chosen. Certainly we were not expect- to obtaining some advice on the opposition’s ing this sort of amendment to this particular approach to this matter as, clearly, we were piece of legislation, given that it is ostensibly not aware that this amendment was to be about occupational health and safety—in moved. In terms of its late appearance in the fact, quite a different area of legislative re- chamber, I suppose Senator Brown can be sponsibility, albeit one contained in the Pe- forgiven given the accelerated place in the troleum (Submerged Lands) Act. list of legislation that this bill has received So the opposition cannot support the because of the government’s inability to deal amendment as proposed by Senator Brown. with the matters ahead of it in the queue ear- We would encourage Senator Brown and the lier today. I do not imagine I can apportion Greens to consult with us about any mean- blame to Senator Brown in that respect for

CHAMBER 16460 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 ingful proposition that they have with regard the government wants to make a contribu- to this area. We are not insensitive to dealing tion. I would flag—and I thank Senator Alli- with these sorts of issues in a way that takes son for this—that I am happy to put the word into account all factors. The question of any ‘significant’ before the word ‘negative’ to possible deleterious effects on ecosystems mirror the Environment Protection and Bio- and on living species—and, of course, the diversity Conservation Act. This will get degree of those effects—would also have to around the problem that Senator O’Brien just be taken into account, one would expect. The had of stopping seismic testing if there is impact on the industries that rely on these minimal environmental impact. methods of exploration would also have to Let me again point out the circumstances be taken into account. we are in. This bill was brought in yesterday. Whilst I would not want to be seen to be The normal forms of the Senate, which saying that the opposition ruled out consid- would have it not being debated for a good eration of matters such as this, we certainly many weeks, were put aside. I am not re- could not support the amendment in the form sponsible for that. It was my intention to in which it appears before the committee amend this bill, and I have done so within, today. We would certainly prefer to be deal- effectively, 24 hours. The opposition agreed ing with it in the context of legislation that is with the government in allowing that process more germane to the subject matter of the to occur, so I do not accept any flak on that. amendment and we would certainly prefer The other thing is that, as far as the seismic the opportunity to fully explore this matter testing is concerned, it is happening now. So before we are forced to make a decision. We the Labor contention that we put this off until will not make a decision on the run, as it we are dealing with some other appropriate were, to impose conditions such as this on bill misses the point—and it is a Labor gov- the exploration industry, which we are cer- ernment in Victoria which is giving the go- tain would have a very significant effect on ahead there. the prospects for the exploration industry for This is the time for us to be acting if we the future, without necessarily fully under- are serious about protecting the marine eco- standing the ramifications. It is, as I said ear- system. Moreover, it is not one industry that lier, effectively a ban on seismic or other is at stake here—there are at least three of sound based activities in the exploration in- them. Remember that the Benaris Energy dustry and the offshore petroleum area. I application to use seismic explosions to look suppose that raises the question: does this for underwater petroleum or gas deposits limit the proposed ban only to exploration covers the Twelve Apostles Marine National for petroleum? Would it, therefore, allow the Park in Victoria. They may say they are not use of seismic testing to explore for other going into the national park but one would items in the so-called submerged lands area? ask why they have exploration licences over Those are issues which ought be considered. it. Anyway, ecosystems do not observe na- We will not be supporting the amendment. tional park boundaries. So a very heartfelt We understand where Senator Brown and the request—which has gone to all parties con- Greens are coming from, but this amendment cerned, including the Labor Party and the goes too far in the circumstances. Greens—has come from the Port Campbell Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.50 Professional Fishermen’s Association. It lays a.m.)—I thank Senator O’Brien for that con- out the concern that the fisheries, including tribution. I will be very brief, because I know

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16461 the current rock lobster and abalone fisher- This is a major issue in Victoria and South ies, have about this seismic testing. Australia. This does affect the whole marine I put it to the Labor Party that action is re- ecosystem, from the micro-organisms so quired now. It is not anything other than pru- small we cannot see them to the greatest liv- dent for significant damage to the ecosys- ing creatures that ever moved on the face of tem—and therefore to fisheries—to be ruled the planet. And we know it will damage them out before this seismic testing occurs. I have if they come within range. So we have to act just explained to the chamber that there is on this—and the time to act is now. I cannot, evidence coming in that these sound explo- as a Green—and Senator Allison cannot, as a sions—and remember they are 200 decibels; Democrat—expect to bring in here a bill to they would split our eardrums; we would put prudent regulation into seismic testing have blood coming from our ears if they because we know it will not even get on the were let off in this chamber—kill fish within agenda between now and the end of the year. five metres. I think even the seismic testers But this testing is occurring now. So I will agree on that. These are massive explosions add, if I may, the word ‘significant’ before because they have to penetrate rock and sand the word ‘negative’. It overcomes Senator and go down hundreds of metres to suit the O’Brien’s problem but it shows this parlia- mineral exploration by Benaris Energy and ment has the ability to act on an issue that Woodside Petroleum, the two companies cannot wait. I seek leave to amend my with the exploration licences. amendment in those terms. There are only two ways you can have it: Leave granted. (1) you do the right thing and you ensure it is Senator BROWN—I move: safe before you proceed; or (2) you become Before “negative”, insert “significant”. party to this process. We know, and they I would like to quote from a recent article in know, it damages the marine ecosystem. And the Age by journalist Melissa Fyfe. She says: even if you are not concerned about the marine ecosystem you ought to be concerned Energy companies use seismic surveys instead of more expensive drilling— about the fishing and tourism industries which depend on that ecosystem. You cannot it is a matter of dollars, you see— just dismiss it and say, ‘Let’s do it some to map what resource may be trapped under the other day.’ We are parliamentarians who seabed. This is done from a boat with airguns have to assess what is going on now. Sure, if trailing behind. you can get a moratorium on these seismic This is happening now. She goes on: explosions—and we are talking about hun- The energy from these guns—which make fre- dreds or thousands of them—then let us con- quent intense noise of more than 200 decibels— sider the matter before that moratorium penetrates the seabed. lapses; but what Labor and, I have no doubt, How does marine life cope with the noise? The the government, are saying is, ‘We will turn only thing environmentalists and the industry a blind eye to that. The Greens and the De- agree on is that many organisms can die if they mocrats have an amendment but that is not are within five metres of the sound source. Other going to ruffle our feathers; we will just turn than that, experts admit we don’t really know the a blind eye to it and let that petroleum explo- effect on underwater life, and no studies have been done on the impact of seismic surveys in ration go ahead.’ That is in the worst tradi- shallow water. tion of last century irresponsibility as far as the environment is concerned.

CHAMBER 16462 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Ms Fyfe said in that article that being un- I think this may provide wording which derwater can sometimes mean being out of might be more acceptable to Labor in oppo- mind. sition. Can you imagine 200 decibel explosions Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (11.02 going on, if not in this chamber, in any area a.m.)—It is entirely unsatisfactory for these in Australia and being accepted by this big amendments to be rolled out as this debate mammal called homo sapiens? Of course we goes on. I will need to consult more widely could not imagine that. It would be mas- than I am able to, as I am now in the cham- sively disrupting to what we were doing. Yet ber. It would be my suggestion that we report creatures under the ocean use sound even progress and bring this matter back on later more than we do for navigation as well as for today, perhaps on the understanding that we communication. And we are bombing their will get a clear position of what the final ecosystem with explosions of noise, which Greens position is and what the Democrat all parties agree within close proximity is so amendment is and have a chance to contem- explosive that it leads to death. That requires plate them. I am not comfortable with stating action. And I say to the opposition, as well as the opposition’s position on these matters to the government: here is the opportunity to without the opportunity to consult more take that action. If you do not, you become fully. It is regrettable that, if that occurs, we part of the problem. cannot fully deal with this legislation now, Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.00 but I think that is the best course of action. a.m.)—At this point I foreshadow an amend- Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.03 ment to Senator Brown’s amendment, which a.m.)—by leave—I move my amendment to I think may be acceptable to the government Senator Brown’s amendment, as circulated: and to the opposition. It is one which is more After “deposits”, insert “that have, or are likely in line with environment protection and to have, a significant impact on ecosystems or biodiversity conservation legislation. I will living organisms”. indicate what those changes are. I have just Omit all words after “unless”, insert: had some rough copies of them done, which ; (a) there are no prudent and feasible I will circulate in a moment. My amendment alternatives to the testing or other reads: activities; and It is a specific condition of a permit that seismic (b) all reasonable measures have been taken testing or other activities using sound to deter- to minimise the impacts of the testing or mine offshore petroleum or other mineral deposits other activities on ecosystems and living that have, or are likely to have, a significant im- organisms. pact on ecosystems or living organisms ... Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— Then we want to remove the next sentence in Minister for Finance and Administration) Senator Brown’s amendment, starting with (11.03 a.m.)—I think it would be most re- ‘demonstrated to the minister’, and insert: grettable indeed if this matter were again ... there are no prudent and feasible alternatives to deferred. We are dealing here with an the testing or other activities; and amendment relating to offshore health and (b) all reasonable measures have been taken to safety, a very important matter that all the minimise the impacts of testing or other activities state Labor governments support and which on ecosystems and living organisms. really should be non-controversial and passed through this parliament so that occu-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16463 pational health and safety can be dealt with. I environment. I would also point out—and I would implore the Labor Party to acknowl- am not sure if this is general knowledge— edge what this bill is actually all about and that the two departments of the government not be deterred or delayed by what we have involved, the Department of Industry, Tour- from the Greens and the Democrats. That is ism and Resources and the Department of the the first point. Environment and Heritage, are indeed right The amendments being proposed do not now conducting a strategic impact assess- have anything to do with the bill before us ment to look at all impacts of exploration and are another matter entirely. They relate activities, including seismic testing on the to the question of seismic testing. This is an environment, and intend to have a draft re- abominable way to deal with one of Austra- port for public comment by the end of the lia’s most significant, important and vital year. national industries. To play with it in the way We do have an understanding of the inter- this Senate is currently doing I think is a dis- est in this issue. We are not saying that you grace. This is a critical industry to the na- should utterly and entirely dismiss the issue. tional wealth, to jobs and to the future of this We say that there are already environmental country. To play with it in this way I think is regulations in place governing this activity. I quite unacceptable. report to you that there is a major strategic Even with this shemozzle of amendments impact assessment being done now, which that we now have, still the bottom line is es- will be available for public comment, and we sentially to require the termination of all invite all parties in the Senate to respond to seismic testing—to kill the exploration in- that. This is delaying and obfuscating a very dustry in this country stone-dead. That is important amendment in relation to occupa- completely and utterly unacceptable, and I tional health and safety. The health and concur with Senator O’Brien’s analysis of safety of Australians who work in this indus- the impact of the amendment. I do not think try, which we think is paramount, should be anything I have heard in relation to the dealt with today and dealt with promptly. amendment to the amendment lessens that Those who are concerned about the impact ultimate impact. Basically, prima facie, you of seismic testing on the marine environment are not allowed to do seismic testing unless, will have their opportunity, through the proc- unless and unless. What is the significant ess of this strategic impact assessment, to negative impact? If one fish dies, you cannot make any points they wish and to argue for do it? There are amateur fishermen who, like strengthening of the current regulations gov- me, go out every weekend and catch fish. erning that activity. Yes, the fish end up dead. It is impossible to In relation to Senator Allison’s question deal with this sort of amendment in this way. about the removal of radioactive materials I point out that this is a heavily regulated that occur naturally in relation to this activ- industry. The current regulations in the Pe- ity, I am advised that the bill itself does not troleum (Submerged Lands) Act in relation prescribe specific regulatory requirements to the environment do require companies to regarding particular risks. The specific safety prepare a management plan covering the im- measures will be dealt with in relation to pacts of all operations, including every seis- each offshore facility under the safety case mic activity they undertake, demonstrating for the facility, which is established under that it minimises the impact on the marine the Petroleum (Submerged Lands) (Man- agement of Safety on Offshore Facilities)

CHAMBER 16464 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Regulations. The safety case must be as- asking whether the draft regulations that sessed and accepted by the safety authority were provided to us are going to be the final before it comes into effect. The measures to regulations, or very close to them, with re- deal with naturally occurring radioactive gard to the disclosure provisions. materials will be established under the safety Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— case for each individual facility, having re- Minister for Finance and Administration) gard to the particular risk environment of (11.10 a.m.)—My advisers assure me that that facility. That is the purpose of establish- their understanding is that they are the same, ing a safety authority—so that uniformly but that is the best advice I can give you at high standards of occupational health and this stage. It appears that the mood in the safety will apply on all facilities in offshore chamber is to report progress, as I under- waters. In relation to the first query from stand it, so we may be able to get you a more Senator Allison, the advisers were not quite definitive answer in the meantime. sure what she was asking regarding the Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.10 regulations. I wonder if Senator Allison a.m.)—I think it is a good idea that we report would take the opportunity to repeat her progress to allow some time to consider question. Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.08 these matters. Senator Minchin, for the gov- a.m.)—The Democrats were provided with a ernment, has not made any reference to the copy of the draft regulations that relate to fishing industry and its concerns about seis- data disclosure. The question is about data mic testing, but I hope he can come back disclosure. We are looking for an assurance better acquainted with the concern that the that the regulations as drafted will be the fishing industry has. I do not accept the trite final regulations, insofar as disclosure as it dismissal that amateur fishing—catching a was shown to us is concerned. fish on the weekend—is the same as seismic Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— testing. I ask the minister: what environ- Minister for Finance and Administration) mental impact assessment is being done on (11.09 a.m.)—I am advised that, in relation the seismic testing? to the release provisions, the government’s I also ask the minister: what is the sense in position is that the details governing them proceeding with seismic testing and then should not continue to figure in the act be- doing an assessment with public input? An cause this presents an excessive impediment assessment is the prudent thing to do when to their amendment in response to techno- we know the testing is damaging. I ask him logical changes. It is considered administra- to deny it, if his information is that it is not tively more efficient to be able to revise damaging to marine ecosystems; to first these rules by amending regulations than by evaluate the extent of that damage, which we amending the act. At this stage, however, the know extends to whales if they are in the proposed regulations will contain similar vicinity; and to tell us what precautions the release provision details to those currently in government has insisted go into place to pro- the act. If you know what that means, you tect whales, dolphins and other cetaceans, are a better man than I am, Gunga Din. I the great migratory fish and, of course, the hope that satisfies your query. fish living in the region which are not in- Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.09 clined to move because, for example, they a.m.)—It does not, actually. I was not asking seek protection in the reefs if they are threat- for them to be put in the act; I was simply

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16465 ened and are therefore subject to any explo- good enough. We want to see the govern- sion that occurs in the vicinity. ment come up with a definitive and prudent It is outrageous that we have a minister in plan which says, ‘We will proceed when we 2003 who says, effectively, notwithstanding know what is happening as far as seismic the information coming in and accepted by testing is concerned.’ That is the way it has the industry itself that seismic testing causes to be. death to creatures within five metres, death Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (11.15 to whales that come within the vicinity and a.m.)—I reiterate, we think that the commit- death to spawning fish and cellular organ- tee should report progress. I indicate we will isms in the region: ‘We will do nothing about not be supporting any proposition which this current bout of testing and we will wait bans seismic testing in the current circum- for public input further down the line.’ That stances but we are prepared to look at the is irresponsible. The right time to do some- amendments to see what sense we can make thing about this is now. If the minister has an of them in the circumstances. We are anxious alternative then let us see it. The problem is for this bill to proceed today and we will that there has been a failure of governance facilitate that. here. There should have been legislation to Progress reported. deal with seismic testing but the government Senator Brown—On a procedural point, I failed to bring it in. That is a failure of the would appreciate it if the government would Howard government. We are in the difficult let me know when the resumption is sched- situation where the minister brought in the uled. bill yesterday, the Greens are amending it today, the Democrats have come with conse- BUSINESS quent amendments, and the minister is say- Rearrangement ing, ‘This is not the place to deal with it.’ It Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— is. Deputy Leader of the Government in the There has to be a mature approach to this Senate) (11.16 a.m.)—I move: to deal with the information that all parties That intervening business be postponed till af- have at hand. There ought to at least be a ter consideration of government business order of moratorium on seismic testing, until that the day no. 6 (Trade Practices Amendment (Per- process of public input that the minister has sonal Injuries and Death) Bill 2003). flagged is completed. That is commonsense, Question agreed to. when we know it is damaging our Australian TRADE PRACTICES AMENDMENT marine ecosystems and is of great concern to (PERSONAL INJURIES AND DEATH) the fishing industry as well as to environ- BILL 2003 mentalists. I would expect that when we come back the minister will have a common- Second Reading sense order to put to the chamber in terms of Debate resumed from 25 June, on motion progress to ensure that the threat to marine by Senator Ian Macdonald: ecosystems by this seismic testing is re- That this bill be now read a second time. moved. There are alternatives. Drilling is an Senator CONROY (Victoria) (11.17 alternative, but it is more expensive. This is a.m.)—I rise to speak on the Trade Practices just cutting expense corners for the big oil Amendment (Personal Injuries and Death) exploration companies with whom the minis- Bill 2003. The bill is one of several pieces of ter happens to be friendly. But that is not

CHAMBER 16466 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 legislation introduced over the past 18 mendations of the review of the law of neg- months in an attempt to stem the rapid in- ligence that was chaired by Justice Ipp last crease in public liability and professional year. They are said to be necessary to support indemnity insurance premiums. Last year the tort law reform instituted by the states insurance ministers from all jurisdictions and territories. received evidence that a significant factor Labor has consistently stressed the need contributing to the increase in premiums has for Commonwealth action to support the ef- been the growth in number and cost of forts of the state and territory governments to claims for negligence. reduce public liability premiums. We have In response, all states and territories have supported amendments to taxation laws to introduced tort law reforms to bring claims facilitate structured settlements which reduce costs under control. The reforms introduced costs to insurers. We have also backed the have included caps on damages, thresholds principle that the TPA needed to be amended to prevent the commencement of actions in to allow people who engage in high-risk rec- relation to minor injuries and measures to reational activities to be able to waive their allow the voluntary assumption of risk. For rights to sue. In addition, Labor endorsed some time the insurance industry and others legislation to remove the personal liability of have expressed concern that the effect of the volunteers performing work for the Com- tort reforms could be undermined if plaintiffs monwealth. As far back as last May, in re- sought to use Commonwealth law in the sponse to concerns about forum shopping, form of the Trade Practices Act as the basis Labor called for appropriate amendments to of their claim rather than negligence. This the Trade Practices Act to ensure that public forum shopping or cause of action shopping liability claims costs did not blow out on is possible because in theory the same con- another front following tort law reform. duct may form the basis of action in tort for We have always emphasised, however, negligence as well under provisions of the that any reforms must reflect the need to en- TPA. sure that consumers are adequately protected This bill seeks to remove this potential and that the legislative response is propor- overlap. Its intention is to prevent the recov- tionate to the size of the problem. In order to ery of damages where conduct in breach of ensure that this bill achieved these aims, we part V, division 1, of the TPA results in per- sought to refer this bill for inquiry by the sonal injury or death. These provisions of the Senate Economics Legislation Committee. Trade Practices Act deal with unfair prac- That committee reported in August. In their tices. Without doubt, the most important minority report Labor senators made it clear consumer protection provisions in the part is that the evidence received by the committee section 52, which prohibits corporations did not justify the enactment of the bill in its from engaging in misleading and deceptive current form. All submissions agreed that at conduct. If this bill is enacted in its present present the TPA is rarely used as the basis for form, a company that misleads a consumer in a claim for personal injury. The Law Council a way that causes injury or death will not be could identify only nine reported cases be- liable to pay any compensation under the tween 1989 and 2002 where the courts had Trade Practices Act. Nor will the ACCC be dealt with such claims. It should be noted able to bring an action to recover damages that in several of these cases plaintiffs were on behalf of people who suffer such an in- not successful in recovering damages. In jury. These amendments arise from recom- terms of representative actions, the ACCC

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16467 stated that it had run only one representative Some may ask why it is necessary for the action seeking to recover damages on behalf TPA to cover personal injury, and why com- of consumers who had suffered personal in- pensation cannot simply be left to the law of jury as a result of a breach of part 5, division negligence. There are a number of reasons. 1. These figures mean that the TPA can in no Firstly, the committee heard evidence of sev- way be blamed for any blow-out in costs eral plausible scenarios where the removal of from personal injury litigation. the right to bring an action under part V, di- Notwithstanding this fact, the government vision 1 could result in consumers being left has argued that the toughening of negligence without a remedy. Examples included cases laws by the states will encourage plaintiffs to involving defective products, where defen- explore using the Trade Practices Act. De- dants had destroyed crucial evidence. The spite this claim, no evidence was submitted Trade Practices Act serves as a vital safety to the committee indicating that the number net in these rare cases. More generally, wit- of personal injury claims being instituted nesses, such as the ACCC, the Consumers under the TPA has increased since the state Association and even the Law Council, em- reforms were enacted. Given that some of phasised the contribution made by the Trade these reforms, such as the Civil Liability Act Practices Act in creating a culture of care in in New South Wales, have now been in op- the Australian business community. eration since June 2002—that is, over a year The Law Council noted the positive ef- now—any trend towards the increased use of fects of the TPA on consumer safety in its the TPA should have become evident by evidence to the committee. The Secretary- now. The case for removing the right to General of the Law Council, Mr Lavarch, claim for personal injury under part V, divi- stated: sion 1 is largely premised on the fact that One of the consequences of that legislation, I provisions such as section 52 are strict liabil- think, has been that it has significantly improved ity—that is, it is not necessary to show that a the standards of behaviour that we have seen company intended to mislead and deceive for across the whole corporate world ... liability to arise. ... in terms of product safety and the actions of The government and the insurance indus- corporations in terms of their potential to cause try argue that it is easier to bring an action physical harm to individuals, there has been this under the TPA, since there is no requirement strong benchmarked potential liability imposed upon them. On the whole, I would say that it has to prove fault, unlike in negligence cases. led to general improvements and one should be The glaring weakness of this argument is that loath to go down a path of in a wholesale way section 52 has been a strict liability provision taking out whole areas of action. since 1974, when the TPA was introduced for We do not accept the government’s claims the first time. If it were significantly easier to that concerns about the effect of this bill on bring claims under the TPA than in negli- consumer safety are misplaced, because the gence, surely we would have seen more use ACCC will retain the ability to bring a of it as the basis for personal injury claims. It criminal action or seek an injunction to re- is true that the elements of negligence are strain conduct in breach of the act. The fact different from those required to establish is that there is no criminal provision equiva- misleading and deceptive conduct, but it lent to section 52 of this act. In addition, the does not follow that the TPA provides an threat of an injunction is highly unlikely to easier way to make claims. be a substantial deterrent to misleading and

CHAMBER 16468 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 deceptive conduct. While cases brought un- view this bill is not a proportionate response der the act for personal injury may be rare, to the size of that problem. This bill is very the fact that the TPA imposes strict liability different from state reforms to law of negli- has encouraged companies to put an empha- gence. Where those reforms instituted sis on consumer safety. In Labor’s view, the thresholds and caps, this bill abolishes an complete removal of this incentive as pro- entire cause of action. posed in the bill runs the risk of undermining In Labor’s view, the key problem is not the high standard of behaviour that consum- that it is easier to bring an action under the ers have come to expect. TPA than in negligence; rather, it is that per- The ACCC’s opposition to the bill was sonal injury damages are capped under state based largely on what is referred to as the and territory law but not under the TPA. If ‘economics of accidents’. In essence, this forum shopping is to emerge at some future work suggests that liability for the cost of stage, this will be the key driver. In our view accidents should be assigned to the party that the danger can be addressed by pursuing an could most easily and cheaply take the ac- option first suggested by the ACCC in its tions needed to minimise the risk of the acci- submission to the Ipp review. The ACCC dent. The commission noted that limiting the proposed that damages for personal injury as scope of part V is economically inefficient, a result of a breach of part V, division 1 in that it forces consumers to incur greater should be aligned with those available under search costs to determine which suppliers are the relevant state or territory civil liability reliable. In addition, the commission pointed laws. I am pleased to say that Labor has been out that the removal of liability for personal able to agree with the Democrats on a set of injury and death would also undermine the amendments that will achieve this outcome. competitive process by allowing firms that These amendments have the benefit of re- engage in misleading and deceptive practices ducing the motivation for plaintiffs to seek to to win customers at the expense of those that evade restrictions under state and territory do not. law while still providing consumers with a The Ipp review acknowledged the force of measure of protection under the TPA and the arguments made by the ACCC but said maintaining incentives for companies to that they needed to be balanced against ‘the minimise risks. inherent value of personal autonomy and the I am aware that the minister has accused desirability of persons taking responsibility Labor of supporting amendments that will for their own actions and safety’. In Labor’s undermine the reforms of state and territory view these concepts are of doubtful rele- Labor governments. This of course is not the vance in a context where a company mis- case. Our colleagues understand that these leads a consumer. Fundamentally, we do not measured amendments will deal with the believe that there is any reason to completely incentive for forum shopping in a balanced excuse companies who engage in misleading way. Labor has consulted widely on these and deceptive conduct that causes personal amendments. injury or death from the consequences of While the Insurance Council would prefer their actions. Having said that, we do recog- the bill in its present form, they have, as I am nise that there is a theoretical possibility that sure the minister is aware, indicated that they claims that would otherwise be brought in are comfortable that our amendments will negligence may be brought under the TPA as deal with their key concerns about the impact a result of the state reforms. However, in our

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16469 of the TPA on the effectiveness of the tort IAG is up by around 35 per cent and law reforms. Given this fact, I would hope Promina has soared by over 50 per cent since that the government would be able to support listing in May. This is not an industry that is these amendments so that this legislation can struggling any more. While premiums are be dealt with expeditiously. forecast to continue to rise, there is evidence The amendments that we will move repre- that tort reforms are lowering public liability sent a proportionate response to what, at this claims costs. Market commentators have stage, is just a theoretical problem. It is im- pointed to the favourable claims environment portant to note that the amendments are also being experienced by the industry as one in keeping with the Ipp review recommenda- factor driving these results. tions for dealing with other provisions of the In NSW, the Attorney-General’s Depart- TPA that may found an action for personal ment has estimated that the number of public injury such as those relating to unconscion- risk actions, including personal injury mat- able conduct. ters, in the District Court has fallen by 25 per Labor is firmly of the view that there is no cent in the last 12 months. Regrettably, the case for completely removing the right of ACCC’s August report on public liability consumers to bring an action for personal insurance pricing indicates reluctance on the injury and death under the TPA. Part V, divi- part of the industry to pass on the benefit of sion 1 of the TPA has played an important reductions in claims. Companies surveyed by role in promoting consumer safety, and the the ACCC forecast that premiums would rise complete removal of the ability of consumers by a further 20 per cent this year and that at and the ACCC to recover personal injury best tort reform will only moderate the in- damages for breach of these provisions has crease by three per cent. Talk about having the potential to expose consumers to in- your cake and eating it too. creased risk. Last September, Labor introduced the Before I conclude, I would like to take Trade Practices Amendment (Public Liability this opportunity to point out once again that Insurance) Bill 2002, which proposed to consumers will only benefit from state and grant the ACCC the necessary powers to en- territory tort reforms if there is a mechanism sure that savings resulting from tort law re- to ensure that savings generated by the reform are passed on to consumers—the in- forms result in lower insurance premiums. tended beneficiaries. Labor repeats its call ACCC data shows that on average public for the government to give the ACCC these liability premiums have increased by 88 per powers to ensure that premiums are reduced. cent since 1999. Tort law reform was pre- Tort law reform was not introduced simply to sented to the community on the basis that it prop up the profits of the insurance industry. would lead to reductions in premiums. So far Labor looks to the insurance industry to play this has not taken place and there is no indi- its part in ensuring that premiums are afford- cation that the passage of the bill will alter able so we can redress some of the problems that situation. that are still out there in the community because they are paying too much for insurance Together, three of the major players in the premiums. public liability market, QBE, IAG and Promina, recently reported profits in excess Senator RIDGEWAY (New South Wales) of half a billion dollars. This year QBE’s (11.34 a.m.)—I also rise to speak on the share price has increased by over 20 per cent, Trade Practices Amendment (Personal Inju-

CHAMBER 16470 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 ries and Death) Bill 2003. The purpose of the reforms—balance being the element that is bill, which was the focus of a recent inquiry, absent in this particular bill. is to amend the Trade Practices Act to pre- The Australian Democrats understand that vent individuals and, more importantly, the in the past and since the collapse of HIH the ACCC being able to take action and recover insurance industry has sustained losses in damages for personal injury and death where both the public liability and professional in- there has been a contravention of part V, di- demnity classes of insurance. However, we vision I of the TPA. Part V, division 1 of the are not convinced that there exists conclusive TPA contains key consumer protection evidence that claims costs are out of control, measures, the most commonly used being given that HIH was the largest underwriter of those that deal with misleading and decep- public liability policies and HIH’s exit from tive conduct under section 52 and false and the market removed a great deal of supply. misleading representations under section 53. The inquiry into the bill highlighted the Currently, where there are provisions in part fact that the Australian Consumers Associa- V, division 1 of the act that are breached, a tion and the Australian Plaintiff Lawyers As- person may recover damages from any loss sociation, among others, did not support the they have suffered as a result of a contraven- bill and viewed it as unnecessary. However, tion of the provision and the ACCC may also in line with the ACCC’s submission in 2002, bring representative actions on behalf of the they suggested that a more palatable ap- person who has suffered loss where any of proach would be to ensure that taking actions the provisions in part V, division 1 are under the TPA was not a more attractive al- breached. The amendments that are con- ternative than taking actions under state tort tained in this bill will prevent actions for law. The Australian Democrats are somewhat damages to part V, division 1 where the supportive of this view and believe the need damage is or results in personal injury and to prevent forum shopping is the most impor- death and will prevent the ACCC from being tant part of the Ipp review’s recommenda- able to bring representative actions under tions. However, at present there is no forum this part of the act. shopping to speak of, which brings into It is important to keep in mind that the bill question why the government believes there is part of the government’s solution to the is an urgency to abolish consumer rights in insurance crisis and implements recommen- such an extreme way. dations 19 and 20 of the Ipp review of the Given the comments of the insurance in- law of negligence. By far the most widely dustry during the inquiry, I do not think that, held belief is that the rising number and cost if the bill were passed, we could expect of claims is the primary driver behind the automatic premiums savings for the commu- cost of insurance. However, rather than im- nity. In fact, the Trade Practices Act has had plementing solutions that limit the number of no impact on premium pricing in the past, claims, the central theme of all of the solu- and we are only debating this bill today be- tions has been to limit the amount that can be cause of assumptions about the future. Dur- claimed in the first instance. Consumer ad- ing the inquiry, my colleague Senator An- vocates as well as the Australian Democrats drew Murray raised concerns that there is a have challenged this approach and the Aus- potential that devolving damages caps to the tralian Democrats still await preventative states could also be problematic. As was solutions from the government that concen- highlighted in the inquiry, there is the danger trate on restoring some balance to the current

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16471 that individuals themselves might be disad- no corresponding assurances regarding vantaged, depending on the particular state safety standards employed by recreational that applies to their action. service providers, which was why we pro- While noting these concerns, the more posed amendments at that time. critical concern is that, if this bill proceeds as The outcome of reforms in 2002 makes it is, an entire right of action will be abolished, all the more important that we do not do leaving no options for consumers at all, re- away with consumer rights completely, gardless of state and territory differences. which is what this bill intends to do. The Whilst state and federal governments have tenor of the current legislation goes even convened numerous meetings to try to ad- further than other reforms that have been dress the affordability and the availability of enacted so far. I believe that by doing away insurance, with a view to coming up with a with rights of action completely we are tip- nationally consistent approach, the govern- ping the balance too far and jeopardising ment has been unable to ensure that the end consumer rights unnecessarily. This is espe- products were consistent. As a result, there is cially so given that the government have not a patchwork quilt of reforms across the entire been able to secure any guarantees from the country, which further justifies the claims of insurance industry that the community will the insurance industry that more needs to be in fact receive savings in insurance premi- done before the community can expect sav- ums as a result of the sacrifices they have ings in insurance premiums. had to make so far. Contrary to the win-win situation that the In their submission to the inquiry and in Commonwealth and state governments have the media more recently, the Australian been promising, these inconsistencies—in Plaintiff Lawyers Association highlight a my mind, at least—create a lose-lose situa- number of scenarios where the passage of tion for the community and make the task of this bill, coupled with changes to the Trade preventing any forum shopping more diffi- Practices Act last year regarding waivers, cult. But, as I will discuss later, the Austra- could potentially have dire consequences for lian Democrats believe this can be achieved consumers because the incentives to ensure without resorting to abolishing consumer safe environments have largely been com- rights altogether. promised. I want to talk very briefly about another An example highlighted in the inquiry was bill that we dealt with last year. Another con- the scenario where a company sets up a sideration that the Democrats have had in bungy jump and promotes itself as the ‘safest mind is the effect that this bill will have in bungy in Australia’. A backpacker, goaded light of the reforms made to the Trade Prac- on by her friends, agrees to participate. Tak- tices Act in 2002, when we dealt with liabil- ing advantage of the new legislation, the ity for recreational services. That was about jumper signs a waiver to prevent her from providing that recreational service providers taking any action for negligence and volun- were able to rely upon waivers accepted by tarily assumes all of the risks associated with consumers. The Australian Democrats sup- the jump. The bungy cord is due to be reported the principle that individuals do take placed at 500 jumps, but the operator forgot responsibility for their own actions. How- the cord that morning and planned to get it at ever, we could see the harm to consumers of lunch time. As the cord had been used for a blanket acceptance of waivers if there were only 470 jumps and the morning’s jumps

CHAMBER 16472 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 averaged 20, he was not concerned. How- While the Australian Democrats do not ever, the backpacker group took the number believe there has been sufficient justification of jumpers to 36 for the morning, beyond the for the large-scale limitations that have been safely limit, causing her to strike her head on placed on individuals’ ability to take legal the ground and resulting in serious injuries. action, we understand the goal of this reform As this scenario highlights, allowing a com- is to prevent forum shopping. But I think we pany to rely on waivers as well as be free of have to look at the bill in the bright light of personal injury and death claims for mislead- day. It is yet another erosion of consumer ing and deceptive conduct does allow com- rights and, given there is no evidence that panies to relinquish their responsibility for part V, division 1 has been used to bypass consumer safety. tort law, actions under the TPA for personal Another consideration which must be injury and death should not be abolished, in taken into account in the passage of this bill my view. Were the bill to proceed as it cur- is the fact that the TPA and the law of negli- rently stands, there would be the danger that gence have existed side by side for a number the high standards and accountability that the of years. Individuals have always had the TPA currently commands would be under- opportunity to use the TPA for personal in- mined and consumers would be further and jury claims, but evidence shows that this has unnecessarily disadvantaged. For this reason, not been the case. And the fact that some the Australian Democrats will be moving an state tort reforms have already been in force amendment to the bill. for the last 12 months has not resulted in any As Senator Conroy has already men- bypassing of existing laws. The Ipp report, tioned, the amendment that the Australian which has been used as the report that has Democrats and the ALP will be proposing is guided all of the changes regarding the in- essentially designed to alleviate insurance surance crisis, has highlighted that the rele- industry concerns that state tort law reforms vant sections of the TPA are rarely used in will promote forum shopping. But it will also order to claim damages for personal injuries leave the door open for personal injury vic- and death. Therefore, it seems to me that tims who may not be able to recover dam- abolishing rights and closing the door on ages under negligence law and where it is consumers completely would be premature, more appropriate to use the Trade Practices extreme and unjustified. Act. As some of the inquiry submissions The reason that the current reforms have highlighted, there may be situations identifi- been implemented or proposed is to provide able in the future where the failure to access greater certainty and to encourage insurers to provisions of the Trade Practices Act for per- re-enter the market, acknowledging that in sonal injury and death may amount to a ter- recent years the public liability and profes- rible injustice. sional indemnity classes of insurance have We will also be seeking amendment to en- been unprofitable at times. The recent ACCC sure that the ACCC can continue to fulfil its monitoring report, released in July of this current role and be able to take representa- year, provides an insight into the perform- tive actions, because it seems to me that the ance of the industry during the last year and ability of the ACCC to bring actions is im- suggests that insurers have returned to prof- portant for the maintenance of high standards itability in both classes of insurance. of conduct and is an important proactive tool to avoid future conduct that contravenes the act. In my view, the ACCC could hardly be

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16473 accused of bringing unmeritorious claims to ACCC, from taking action on behalf of a the attention of the court and, as the inquiry person who has suffered loss as a result of has highlighted, the decision to take repre- breaches of part V of the act. sentative actions is not taken lightly. Consid- The government has relied upon a sense eration has to be given to available re- of panic in the community, generated by the courses, the public interest aspects of the collapse of insurance company HIH and case and the consequences of the particular medical indemnity provider UMP, and a mis- conduct. conception about damages awards in a hand- Given that division l, part V of the TPA is ful of cases, to drive its program. It has been not readily used to pursue damages for per- aided and abetted by the states and territo- sonal injury, I am certain that abolishing the ries, which have signed on to the so-called right altogether is unnecessary, and I believe reform agenda—that is, the curtailing of that this amendment is a vast improvement to rights under tort law. Governments have the current bill. I also believe that, if the as- been far less diligent in pursuing some sort sumption about the future, held by the Ipp of long-term care program for people who review and insurance industry, proves incor- are injured. In the absence of such a pro- rect, and forum shopping does not increase, gram, it is unacceptable to be restricting and, the effects of this bill on consumers will be in this case, removing rights to seek funds to minimal. At the same time, we believe that assist a person to provide the care that they these amendments should deliver the cer- need. tainty that the insurance industry is seeking The government claims that the measures and has been calling for. Given the limita- in the bill are aimed at limiting public liabil- tions that have been made to consumer rights ity claims costs in order to remove pressure over the absence of affordable and available on insurance premiums and assist in deliver- insurance, the government must, as a first ing affordable liability insurance. There is in priority, ensure that the insurance industry fact no justification for this legislation. It is plays its part in delivering on its end of the based on the view, lacking any evidentiary bargain. support, that, because the states and territo- Senator NETTLE (New South Wales) ries have restricted the right to sue for dam- (11.47 a.m.)—The Trade Practices Amend- ages, people will rush to use this provision ment (Personal Injuries and Death) Bill 2003 under the Trade Practices Act. is the latest instalment in the government’s As the Australian Plaintiff Lawyers Asso- program to curtail the rights of citizens who ciation has noted, the TPA is not frequently suffer as a result of another person’s negli- used to recover compensation for personal gent behaviour. We have seen one attempt injury or death. In evidence to the Senate after another to protect the interests of insur- Economics Legislation Committee inquiry ance companies ahead of protecting the into this bill, the association’s National rights of injured people. In this case, the President, John Gordon, said that this part of government is seeking to amend division 1 the act has always been limited in its utility. of part V of the Trade Practices Act 1974 to For example, to establish liability under sec- remove the right of a person to take legal tion 52, it must be shown that a corporation action for damages for personal injuries and acting in trade or commerce is guilty of mis- death as a result of misleading or deceptive leading or deceptive conduct. conduct. The bill also prevents the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, the

CHAMBER 16474 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Even if we accept the government’s con- people will be worse off. This is further ac- tention that the raft of measures by state, knowledged in the explanatory memorandum federal and territory governments will reduce to the bill, where the government states: insurance premiums, governments have done These amendments may lead to some increase nothing to ensure that insurance companies in social security, Medicare and related expendi- pass on any cost savings to policy holders in ture. This is because there may be circumstances the form of lower premiums. The insurance where a person is unable to pursue a claim under companies must be laughing loudly behind tort or contract law but who might have suc- closed doors. Business journalist Mark West- ceeded in a claim for damages under the TPA for field, writing in the Australian on 29 August, personal injuries or death as a result of conduct in contravention of Division 1 of Part V. noted the profit reports of QBE, the profits of which had more than doubled again for just This bill will have financial implications, six months; Suncorp, which had a net profit although the government has not been par- of $384 million for the year to 30 June; ticularly forthcoming about the extent of Promina, which had a net profit of $135 mil- them. Treasury officials failed to clarify the lion for the six months to 30 June; and IAG, matter when appearing before the Senate which had a profit of $153 million in the inquiry into this bill. In answers to questions year to 30 June. We agree with Mr West- taken on notice they simply referred back to field’s observation that: the explanatory memorandum, adding: It is breathtaking that politicians keep giving the While there is expected to be no significant finan- industry concessions but don’t seek offsetting cial impact on the Commonwealth from the pas- undertakings to reduce premiums to stop the sage of this bill, it is not possible to provide a gouge. more detailed assessment of that financial impact because of a lack of relevant data. The government’s arguments in support of this bill are confusing and contradictory. The In other words, the government has no idea government claims that removing this right of the financial impact on the public purse, to seek damages under the Trade Practices let alone the burden individuals will carry as Act will not leave people without a legal a result of these amendments. remedy, because they can take action under The Australian Plaintiff Lawyers Associa- common law. Of course, that common law tion has made some particularly important now contains new hurdles: time limits on points about the context and implications of commencing actions and caps on damages. this bill, which are worth mentioning in this However, if people have access to the com- debate. Association president Rob Davis, mon law, why does the government assume writing in the University of New South Wales that they would take action under the Trade Law Journal earlier this year, observed that Practices Act in the first place? There are many of the legal rights that governments particular tests to meet in proving a claim have legislated away in response to the Ipp under the Trade Practices Act, for misleading review of the law of negligence were abol- and deceptive conduct, and this provision is ished ‘to fund the market driven mistakes used occasionally, not regularly. and excesses of insurers’. He went on: The government does, though, acknowl- The local campaign follows the blueprint for in- edge that some claims for personal injuries dustry driven attacks on citizens’ rights refined in or death as a result of conduct prohibited the US over two decades ... The goal of the campaign is to confuse the Australian public about the under this section of the Trade Practices Act true causes of the current crisis in the insurance will not succeed at common law—that is,

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16475 industry and, in the process, convince them to clarification of that from Labor during the surrender valuable legal rights. committee stage of the debate. Whilst the Mr Davis pointed out that, according to the Greens disagree with the caps and restric- Productivity Commission, the amount of tions that the states and territories have im- civil litigation has declined gradually over posed on civil liability litigation—and have the past seven years. The rate of claims voted against these measures in state legisla- against insurance policies has declined since tures—we will be supporting the second the mid-1990s. Australian general insurers amendment, as it improves the bill by retain- have not suddenly experienced a negative ing the capacity to take action under the underwriting result; claim costs have ex- Trade Practices Act, circumscribed though it ceeded premium income for 20 years. may be. The Australian Greens acknowledge Rather, what changed recently were the in- that there are problems with the current ar- vestment returns of insurance funds, the rangements for seeking redress for personal source of their profits for two decades. This injury and death. I mentioned them in speak- has forced insurance companies to increase ing on the government’s medical indemnity premiums. Mr Davis cited a 1999 United insurance bills last year. States study on the effects of tort law The adversarial system does nothing to changes in that country covering 25 years reduce the incidence of adverse events or to that showed no relationship between tort law address systemic causes of problems. It does reforms and premiums. He concluded that, as the opposite, because the threat of legal ac- the current crisis in insurance has nothing to tion works against a culture of openness—a do with litigation or an increase in Austra- necessary prerequisite for reducing the inci- lians’ propensity to blame others for injury, dence of adverse medical events. Nor is the restricting civil litigation rights will not recurrent system fair. Two people who suffer a solve the crisis. similar adverse outcome or medical misad- Denying an injured person the right to venture may have the same requirements of take action against these provisions troubles care and income replacement but under the the Greens, but we are also concerned about existing system may be treated very differ- the conclusions business and the community ently, based on chance. One may be able to will draw from the removal of this right make a successful legal claim by proving whilst retaining the right of a person or cor- negligence and the other may not. poration to sue for monetary loss. The Aus- Our focus needs to be on prevention, on tralian Labor Party and the Australian De- ensuring adequate treatment and care and, as mocrats are proposing amendments to pick far as possible, on rehabilitation. We are a up concerns raised in the committee inquiry. long way from meeting these goals, although These deal with giving courts the capacity to this kind of approach is not new. Justice consider contributory negligence—a concept Owen Woodhouse conducted a royal com- that applies in the case of tort law but which mission into workers compensation in 1967 the High Court has found cannot be consid- and recommended a no-fault approach to ered in cases under the Trade Practices Act— compensation for personal injury. A parlia- and putting limits on payouts which accord mentary inquiry followed the royal commis- with relevant state tort law. sion, reporting in 1974, but no scheme There may be some unintended conse- emerged. More recently there was the Neave quences in the case of the contributory negli- report, commissioned by the Common- gence amendment, and I will be seeking wealth, state and territory health ministers

CHAMBER 16476 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 and released in September last year. Profes- costs of ongoing medical care needed as a sor Marcia Neave’s report proposed an inte- result of negligent or deceptive behaviour by grated package designed to reduce the num- somebody else. The Trade Practices Act pro- ber of adverse medical events and minimise visions that the government wants to abolish litigation by improving patient safety; reduce are important to individuals and, in the case the need to litigate and encourage early fi- of groundbreaking litigation, are important in nalisation of disputes; provide fair compen- changing poor and even dangerous corporate sation to people who suffer loss as a result of practices. This bill sends entirely the wrong medical negligence; and ensure affordable signal on the matter of responsibility. It re- and sustainable insurance premiums. moves an important right without justifica- Some people argue that we cannot afford a tion and it will leave some people worse off no-fault scheme, but the Greens say that we without just cause. For these reasons, the cannot afford not to investigate this option. Australian Greens will be opposing the bill. The Commonwealth government needs to Senator BUCKLAND (South Australia) move quickly to investigate a system of (12.01 p.m.)—The Trade Practices Amend- long-term care for people who are injured ment (Personal Injuries and Death) Bill 2003 that will achieve the objectives identified in will remove the ability of consumers and the the Neave report instead of continuing to ACCC to recover damages for personal in- tighten access to the existing arrangements, jury and death sustained by consumers as a which do nothing to ensure fair and just out- result of conduct that breaches the Trade comes or address the causes of injury and Practices Act. The key provisions of the act death. are part V, division I, section 52, which pro- On this point, we agree with the Austra- hibits corporations from engaging in mis- lian Medical Association that the govern- leading and deceptive conduct; and section ment’s measures to address the medical in- 53, which prohibits false representations that demnity crisis are unsustainable, though we goods or services are of a particular standard, note the current problems were caused by the quality or grade. medical indemnity insurer and the Com- It is said that the reforms before us are monwealth was warned years ago. The an- necessary to support state and territory tort nouncement by the Minister for Health and law reform and have been introduced in re- Ageing, Tony Abbott, of a review to address sponse to the rapid increase in public liability this matter and to report by the end of this insurance premiums over the last few years. year is just another quick fix and is com- Particularly notable here is the case of HIH. pletely inadequate. This is an issue that af- More specifically, the intention of the bill is fects every single Australian. The govern- to address concerns about forum shopping. It ment needs to instigate a public inquiry into is my view that what we are being asked to a national, public, no-fault compensation support here through this bill will in fact scheme along the lines of the New Zealand make forum shopping easier and less benefi- accident compensation scheme. cial to those who have been injured. The in- Whilst we recognise the shortcomings of tention of the bill is to address concerns the existing approach to negligence and per- about this forum shopping. This would mean sonal injuries, the Greens will not support that plaintiffs faced with tougher negligence restricting the rights of people to seek dam- laws would seek to manipulate their action to ages that are used to help them meet the bring it within the Trade Practices Act.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16477

The Labor Party support moves that fect of the Trade Practices Act in its evidence would prevent forum shopping, but we also to the Senate Economics Legislation Com- say that any proposed changes should aim to mittee. I will just quote one piece from that limit rather than remove the right to sue for from a witness, Mr Lavarch, who said: personal injury damages under part V, divi- One of the consequences of that legislation, I sion 1 of the act. This goes further than what think, has been that it has significantly improved the government is proposing. The govern- the standards of behaviour that we have seen ment argues that the removal of the right to across the whole corporate world, in terms of ... seek damages under the Trade Practices Act product safety and the actions of corporations in will not adversely affect consumers because terms of their potential to cause physical harm to these consumers still have the ability to seek individuals, there has been this strong benchmarked potential liability imposed upon them. On damages under state law. In my state of the whole, I would say that it has led to general South Australia, there can be no assurance improvements and one should be loath to go that an affected consumer will have the pro- down a path of in a wholesale way taking out tection suggested in the government’s pro- whole areas of action. posal. In fact, the South Australian govern- This seems to me to be a very commonsense ment is waiting for the Commonwealth to observation but it does not sit all that well pass this bill before proceeding with its own with the government’s argument that re- amendments, so there can be no assurance or moval of the right to seek damages under the feeling of comfort for potential applicants. In Trade Practices Act will not adversely affect my view, what the South Australian govern- consumers because they will still be able to ment is doing is wise, given some of the un- seek damages for negligence under state law. certainties of the federal government’s pro- The Law Council of Australia has, in its re- posals. marks, taken into account the lack of protec- One of the things that seems to be unclear tion inherent in some states’ laws. from a policy perspective is whether the bill The ACCC, in its submission to the gov- will define standards for different forms of ernment-initiated Ipp review, which pro- loss under the Trade Practices Act. I am duced the report titled Review of the law of thinking here of loss of personal injury or negligence, was rightfully strong in its oppo- death versus economic loss. From my read- sition to the removal of liability for personal ing of it, the bill has the potential to remove injury. Based on the literature known as the the culture of care that has developed in Aus- economics of accidents, where it is suggested tralia since the Trade Practices Act was first that the cost of accidents should be assigned enacted. As a consequence of this, I have a to the party that could most easily and fear that consumers will be exposed to cheaply take the actions needed to minimise greater risk of injury, hence they will face the risk of accident, the ACCC made a num- greater real loss. While it can be said that ber of good points in their submission and I few cases of personal injury have been think it is worth reflecting on these for a brought under part V, division 1, the poten- moment. tial for liability under the act has encouraged companies to put a real emphasis on safety Firstly, the ACCC pointed out that section and protecting themselves from potential 52 of the Trade Practices Act provides an litigation for unsafe acts or products. important incentive for business to behave fairly and have regard for consumers’ safety. It is interesting to note what the Law Without this important remedy, the standard Council of Australia saw as the positive ef-

CHAMBER 16478 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 of behaviour that consumers are entitled to ability of persons taking responsibility for expect may break down. It seems to me that their actions and safety. I am always con- consumer protection has to be first and fore- cerned when individuals are given the re- most in relation to this act and any change to sponsibility to care for their own actions the act that alters or shifts the onus for con- when it could have devastating effects on sumer protection largely renders the act im- others. You need a strong regulatory forum potent. Unless changes are as near as practi- and you need a strong and effective method cably aligned to those state and territory civil for redressing the irresponsible within the liability laws as they can be, that is exactly community. what we will be left with—an impotent piece The views contained in the Ipp review of legislation. show a lack of courage on the part of that The second thing the ACCC pointed out review, particularly as its terms of reference was the limiting of the scope of part V of the required that it proposed reforms that would act. They said this would make the bill inef- meet the objective of limiting liability and ficient in that it would force consumers to the quantum of damages arising from per- incur greater search costs to determine which sonal injury and death. The arguments by the suppliers were reliable. Based on that, it is review panel lack substance because there my view that we could be confronted with a can be no reason to excuse companies that grossly unfair act which, rather than protect- engage in misleading and deceptive conduct, ing consumers, would, in fact, expose them particularly conduct which causes personal to a lack of protection from unethical com- injury or death as a consequence of their ac- panies. They would be exposed to greater tions. costs and confusion and it would not provide The terms of reference gave the review the remedial actions that could be taken to panel a chance to grasp the nettle. They address their concerns. In addition to that, chose rather to weaken that part of the act you would have this problem of shopping that is there to protect consumers. Part V, around to find the best jurisdiction to seek division 1 of the Trade Practices Act has, redress. over the years, played an important role in The final point I wanted to refer to from promoting consumer safety. The complete the ACCC’s submission is their view that removal of the ability of consumers and the such a limitation also undermines the com- ACCC to recover personal injury damages petitive process by allowing firms to engage for breach of these provisions has the poten- in misleading and deceptive practices to win tial to expose consumers to increased risk. At customers at the expense of those who do the end of the day, legislation should be in not. It would be a case of gain for the unethi- place to guard against exposing consumers to cal and the cheats and loss for the fair and risk. the honest within the industrial community. An example of how a person could be af- That simply would not be tolerable. fected would be a drug company which mar- It is interesting to note that the Ipp review kets a drug, claiming that the drug will ease accepted these propositions put forward by the effects of morning sickness suffered by the ACCC and felt they were valid consid- women during pregnancy but knowing that erations but argued that the review had to tests have shown that the drug can result in balance the submission against the inherent horrendous birth defects in a substantial value of personal autonomy and the desir- number of cases. So while the drug is fine

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16479 for easing morning sickness, a side-effect is Senator KEMP (Victoria—Minister for that you could have defects in the child when the Arts and Sport) (12.20 p.m.)—I rise to it is born. To protect itself, the drug company speak on the Trade Practices Amendment destroys its tests. A litigant would have all (Personal Injuries and Death) Bill 2003. I the difficulty in the world to pursue it to the should point out that I am not closing the end. That is negligence. It is a hypothetical debate on the bill; I am rising as one of the case, and I guess drug companies at the mo- many interested senators who are concerned ment are easy to pick on. There are many about the impact that insurance premium good drug companies producing drugs of rises are having on the wider community, great benefit to society, but there have also particularly in the area in which I hold been difficulties with drug companies. It is ministerial responsibility—sport and the arts. one example of where a litigant would have I was a bit shocked to hear the closing all sorts of difficulties, because there would comments of Senator Buckland opposing this be no evidence tracing fault back to the bill. My understanding is that all six Labor company. Where does the litigant turn to? states support this bill. Six Labor govern- The best protection that can be offered would ments around Australia support this bill and be through the act as it exists now. we have just heard that the Labor Party in It is our responsibility to do all those this chamber opposes the bill. There is a bit things necessary to guard against such cases of a debate on Senate obstruction these days and to offer an avenue of genuine redress. and whether the debates in this chamber are That avenue of redress could be substantially of a constructive nature or simply of a block- reduced by what the government is seeking ing nature. Those who may be listening to to do in this bill and be at greater cost to con- this debate and who listened to Senator sumers. It could also lead, as my friend Buckland and the comments that he made Senator Conroy spoke of, to forum shopping, should understand that Senator Buckland’s and that is something that should be guarded views are not supported by any Labor gov- against. Evidence presented to the Senate ernment of which I am aware around Austra- committee showed that litigation under part lia. The next Labor senator to speak in this V, division 1 of the Trade Practices Act had debate can correct me if I am wrong, but I the potential not to strengthen but to under- understand that to be the case. mine state and territory tort law reforms, The public liability and professional in- while the arguments put forward by those demnity insurance crisis has had a significant supportive of the government’s proposed impact on the Australian community and legislation were weak and unconvincing. The despite its limited jurisdiction in this area— amendments in this bill implement recom- and senators will know that the main consti- mendation 19 of the Ipp report, preventing tutional responsibility in relation to insurance individuals from recovering damages for issues rests with the state governments; per- personal injury and death brought about by a haps that was not clear from what was said breach of part V, division 1 of the act. Ar- by some of the Labor speakers—the Austra- guably, these amendments reduce consumer lian government has taken a lead in trying to rights to redress under the Trade Practices progress an appropriate reform agenda. This Act. For these reasons it is my view that the has involved commissioning the Review of proposal being put forward by the govern- the Law of Negligence—the so-called Ipp ment to alter the strength of that act should review—and chairing ministerial meetings be opposed and should be defeated. involving all states and territories. At this

CHAMBER 16480 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 stage I would like to congratulate the Minis- problems that inconsistency in legislation is ter for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer, causing. I put Senator Lundy on notice that Senator Helen Coonan, on the lead role she this is an issue that I will continue to press has taken in this area in trying to progress with her. reforms with the six Labor states and the two At the meeting of state treasury ministers Labor territories. I know Senator Coonan in November 2002, treasury ministers agreed understands that these are key issues, not to a package of reforms implementing key only in relation to the wider community but recommendations of the Ipp review. Minis- particularly in relation to the arts and sports ters agreed to implement these key recom- communities. I thank her for the interest and mendations, which go to establishing liabil- support that she has given. ity on a nationally consistent basis, and each Senator Kate Lundy recently put out a jurisdiction agreed to introduce the necessary press release—and I shall touch on the facts legislation as a matter of priority. The Aus- of this a little later in my remarks—looking tralian government is working to support at the rises in insurance premiums that are nationally consistent reform of the law of being faced by some of the surf lifesaving negligence, and amendments proposed to the clubs. I made the point then, and I make it Trade Practices Act will ensure that it cannot today in this chamber, that this is an issue on be used to undermine state and territory civil which I think Senator Lundy, in attempting liability reforms in relation to claims for to score cheap political points, makes a seri- damages and personal injuries or death. ous mistake. This is a case where we have to States and territories—and I make this point, work together to bring about legal changes Mr Acting Deputy President Marshall, be- so that the downward pressure on premiums cause I know that you are a man of consider- can be increased. We all understand that able influence in your own state—have dem- there are balancing issues involved and we onstrated their strong support for this bill. understand that these are often complex is- The Labor government in Victoria have sues but I again put on the public record that demonstrated their strong support for this bill Senator Lundy can play a constructive role. and therefore I think it is beholden on you to One of the big issues that have been represent the views of that government and brought to my attention is the inconsistencies not to attempt to undermine, by any votes or between the state laws relating to public li- amendments, the general thrust of this bill. I ability insurance matters. The state govern- will be monitoring your performance on this ments are Labor governments and Senator in particular because I know that you always Lundy is a Labor shadow minister. Those seek— Labor governments have the key constitu- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT tional responsibilities in this area and I will (Senator Marshall)—Thank you, Senator be looking very closely to see what construc- Kemp. You are not trying to engage me in tive action Senator Lundy proposes to take in debate, are you? this area because I believe that she can have Senator KEMP—No, I have noted that an influence. Rather than attempting to score you sometimes seek to play a constructive weak political shots with press releases, role, so I draw to your attention exactly what Senator Lundy can get down to doing some your Labor colleagues in state governments hard work and consulting with her Labor are saying. I am aware that New South Wales colleagues. And she can bring to the atten- and Tasmania have passed amendments to tion of her Labor colleagues in the states the

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16481 make the equivalent changes to their own cific inclusion of sport in the definition of fair trading acts, and other jurisdictions are recreational services was retained despite a expected to make similar amendments. So, suggestion from the Ipp review that would as I said, I think it is beholden on this cham- have resulted in it being removed. ber to act in a constructive and responsible While this particular instance represents a fashion. good outcome for the sporting sector, it is The Insurance Council of Australia has disappointing that definitional issues and indicated that enactment of this bill will en- legislation dealing with waivers have not sure that cost savings resulting from state been consistent across the states. I raised this and territory liability reforms will be avail- issue at the most recent Sport and Recreation able to be passed on to consumers with con- Ministers Council meeting. Ministers agreed fidence and that these savings will not be to examine the impact of current public li- eroded by claims costs arising from alterna- ability insurance reforms on sport organisa- tive causes of action dealt with in this bill. tions and, where appropriate, raise issues However, the level of cost savings and the with their treasury counterparts. Legislative ultimate impact on premiums will therefore inconsistencies and high premiums continue depend on the nature and extent of liability to be issues of concern for many organisa- reforms in each of the states and territories. I tions. I know that within my portfolio legis- am concerned about the availability and af- lative inconsistencies across jurisdictions fordability of public liability insurance. It have made the implementation of national continues to be a major issue of concern to policies a challenging task. The Australian so many not-for-profit arts and sports organi- government continues to receive representa- sations. And I am particularly concerned tions from organisations expressing frustra- about the impact on the not-for-profit arts tion that the pace and extent of reform has and sport organisations that fall within my differed from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, portfolio responsibilities and I continue to specifically in terms of providing exemptions work closely with Senator Coonan on their to accredited rescue organisations from li- behalf to ensure that their interests are fully ability when acting in good faith and in considered in the response to the insurance emergency and rescue situations. The Prime crisis. Minister, Senator Coonan and I have been Some of these actions in relation to the working to improve the position of these concerns that have been brought to the atten- organisations. tion of Senator Coonan I think have been Senator Coonan has raised the position of very productive. Arts and sports organisa- emergency rescue organisations with treas- tions have been able to say that they have ury state ministers on a number of occasions, had at least some of their concerns ad- to ensure that the work of organisations like dressed. In particular, for example, the defi- Surf Life Saving Australia is not compro- nition of ‘recreational services’ in the Com- mised. At their most recent meeting, on monwealth Trade Practices Amendment (Li- 6 August, ministers agreed to clarify the ex- ability for Recreational Services) Act 2002 tent to which current legislative provisions includes a sporting activity or similar leisure operate to give adequate protection for the time pursuit. This act amends the Trade Prac- organisations responsible for emergency res- tices Act to allow people to sign waivers and cues, and to report findings at their next to assume the risk of participating in inher- meeting. Surf Life Saving Australia is one ently risky recreational activities. The spe- example of an organisation that is suffering

CHAMBER 16482 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 as a result of inconsistent legislative reform. success stories resulting from action that Surf Life Saving Australia only very recently organisations have taken to improve and secured public liability insurance for the strengthen their risk management practices. coming year, with premiums increasing by Let me just instance one case. I understand 152 per cent. There are other examples that that Cycling Australia have demonstrated one can quote. Time prevents me from going their diligence in risk management to their through those in some detail. The general insurers, and this has resulted in reduced principle remains that the inconsistencies of premiums. response, the definitional issues, are causing Let me conclude by saying that the Aus- problems to these organisations. I congratu- tralian government has worked, and contin- late Senator Coonan in her efforts to work ues to work, hard to maintain the momentum towards achieving consistency across the of reform. It is important that the proposed states, and I hope that this work will ulti- amendments to the Trade Practices Act be mately prove to be very fruitful. passed, to prevent the act from undermining At the second meeting of treasury minis- state and territory reforms, to support the ters on 30 May 2002, the Australian govern- benefits of state and territory civil liability ment indicated it was prepared to take a reforms being achieved, and to assist in de- leadership role to deal with risk management livering affordable public liability insurance where required—and it has demonstrated its by reducing some of the pressure on insur- commitment in a number of ways. Certainly ance premiums. within the arts and sport portfolio there is a Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (12.35 range of work being undertaken around risk p.m.)—I commence my contribution to the management. Research undertaken by the debate on the Trade Practices Amendment Australian Sports Commission showed that (Personal Injuries and Death) Bill 2003 by sports organisations were generally not well placing on the record that One Nation is very informed as to their insurances, levels of concerned about the direction and the cost of cover, exclusions and claims history. This insurance in Australia and in our economy. indicates that legislative change alone will We have moved from being a very low- not solve the current insurance crisis for litigant society, even in relatively recent his- sporting organisations. tory, to being one in which at the drop of a The Australian Sports Commission, I am hat somebody will turn around and sue pleased to report, has taken a proactive and somebody else for an incident which in the hands-on role in supporting national sporting past we would have accepted partial respon- organisations with their insurance chal- sibility for. Our society has moved away lenges. The commission is providing specific from accepting responsibility for the deci- risk management education programs to na- sions that we make when we participate in tional sporting organisations and is currently certain activities, and that may be from driv- working with the legal fraternity, insurance ing a car down the street, to going out to a and sports industries to develop sport fo- community hall, to participating in a func- cused risk management tools and insurance tion, or to participating in a physical activity awareness programs. It has also introduced like motocross, horse riding or skiing—there minimum risk management requirements are numerous examples that we can use. with respect to funding agreements with na- Now, rather than accepting the responsi- tional sporting organisations. There have bility for making the decision to participate, been, I am pleased to report, a number of

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16483 we have moved into this area of practice cally, the problem for plaintiffs has been es- where we tend not to accept that responsibil- tablishing that a defendant with substantial ity. We lay the blame on somebody else— market power has acted for an improper pur- when we are injured by diving into the pose. The issue came to a head in 2002 and ocean, we sue the local council, or when we 2003 in the context of the Boral case deci- fall off the side of a private swimming pool sion by the High Court. The case is widely on a person’s property that we had not even seen as strengthening the position of big been invited to, we have the temerity to turn business in fighting off allegations of misuse around and sue the owner. As a society, we of market power by small business. have to come back to a situation where we The reason I am raising this issue in the are prepared to accept some of the responsi- context of this bill is to move an amendment bility for participating in the activities that that will bring into the act a provision that we set out to participate in. will clearly set out what the objects of the act The issue of insurance is even impacting are. My comments are in context because on academic people who largely work in they go directly to the Trade Practices Act. universities and provide services. It could The objects clause—and I indicate to the impact on a statistician crunching numbers chamber that I will move this amendment in for somebody or it could impact on a com- the committee stage—would insert at the pany that is largely giving environmental beginning of the Trade Practices Act a set of advice. This is not an aspect of personal in- objects. Those objects would be: to enhance jury, but we are having so many problems the welfare of Australians through promoting now with personal injury and death because competition and fair-trading and the provi- of the other pressures that are being placed sion of consumer protection; to encourage upon our insurance industry. One Nation the expeditious settling of marketplace dis- does support the government in their at- putes by mandatory dispute resolution tempts to rein in this ever escalating cost of mechanisms including mediation; and to insurance. minimise legal technicalities in the litigation One Nation is also using this opportunity, of marketplace disputes that should be set- while the bill amending the Trade Practices tled in a reasonably simple manner. Because Act is in the committee stage, to move of the court’s decision in the Boral case the amendments to the bill which will amend legal arguments around the issue are becom- section 46 of the act. The reason, again, that ing such an intense cost to industry that they we will be moving these amendments is that reflect what is happening in the insurance the pressures on the decisions that are being industry as well. There is a comparison be- made in this country in relation to market tween the issue that I am raising and the in- competition are also having adverse effects surance side of the bill that we are debating. on our society and the way in which we con- The objects clause would also ensure that, duct our business. Section 46 of the Trade when disputes in relation to competition and Practices Act states that a firm with a sub- fair trading arise, the act is used to arrive at a stantial degree of market power must not resolution which is focused on averting the take advantage of that power for an anticom- anticompetitiveness or unfair trade practice petitive purpose. Many small businesses which is the subject of the dispute. The have expressed frustration with this provi- amendments in relation to section 46, if they sion of the act and, more importantly, with are successful and accepted by the chamber, how it is actually being administered. Typi- will take the focus away from the technical

CHAMBER 16484 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 arguments that are currently being used and Our troops are our sons and daughters, our put the focus on the uncompetitive sections brothers and sisters, our husbands and wives. that are currently being overlooked. It is fit and proper that our national broad- Debate interrupted. caster should refer to them as ‘our troops’ because we are proud of them and grateful MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST for what they do. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT The ABC refuses to accept this. It explic- (Senator Marshall)—Order! It being 12.45 itly prohibits Australian service men and p.m., I call on matters of public interest. women from being described in the national Australian Broadcasting Corporation broadcaster’s news and current affairs pro- Senator SANTORO (Queensland) (12.45 grams as ‘our troops’. This is an insult to the p.m.)—As I have stated in this place previ- Australian Defence Force and all those who ously, the ABC is a vital element in our na- serve in the three armed services. But the tion’s broadcasting. Its standing ensures that greatest damage it does is to the ABC, for it it wields great influence and plays an indis- highlights a narrow-mindedness, a lack of putable role in shaping debate within Austra- generosity of spirit, a detachment from the lia, as well as in influencing the way in perceptions and understanding of ordinary which we are perceived internationally. Australians that can only undermine the Much of this it owes to its position as a tax- ABC and impede it from achieving its mis- payer funded organisation with the resources sion. I have called several times for this pol- needed to provide a first-class broadcasting icy that prevents Australian service men and service. That taxpayer status imposes on the women from being referred to as ‘our troops’ ABC a duty to be independent. But it im- to be revoked. I now call for it again. And let poses another duty, part of the first but ar- me say this: for as long as that policy re- guably even more important: it must be bal- mains in place, I will continue to call for its anced, non-partisan and accountable. It is revocation. proper—actually it is essential—that the Resolving that matter is, however, merely ABC be rigorously held to this duty and not a first step. It is also essential that the ABC only honour it fully but also be seen to hon- take seriously the issues of bias that I have our it fully. When it fails to do so, that is a raised before and that remain pressing. I am matter of the greatest importance and should deeply disappointed by the dismissive way in be and must be a cause of deep concern. which the ABC’s managing director re- There is here an issue that I have raised sponded to the findings of the ABC’s Inde- before and will raise again until it is fully pendent Complaints Review Panel review of resolved. In my view it is completely unac- the complaints brought by Senator Alston. I ceptable that a policy remains in place under believe there are many flaws in the panel’s which ABC news and current affairs staff are review. It plainly sought to set the bar so prohibited from referring to Australia’s ser- high that only the most blatant instances of vice men and women as ‘our troops’. In my prejudice would be counted as amounting to view Australians are rightly and unasham- impropriety. edly proud of Australia’s service men and But the facts are clear—even that panel women, who accept the dangers of going in found 12 instances of serious bias. Addition- harm’s way for the sake of defending our ally and separately, in 16 instances it criti- country and our values. I believe that is the cised the behaviour of the journalists in- view of the vast majority of Australians too.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16485 volved generally for failings which seem leave it to the audience to make up their own inconsistent with the standards the commu- minds about the merits of these different perspec- nity expects from the taxpayer funded ABC. tives. In August I wrote to Mr Balding following That is how the system is supposed to work, the ABC’s written responses to questions of course. The problem is that it is not work- placed on notice at the estimates hearing in ing that way. The problem is that the ABC May. Mr Balding wrote back to me last still does not see that there is a problem. Let month and several things he said in that cor- us be clear about what is at issue in these respondence were interesting. But there was cases. one area in particular where I felt he demon- What is at issue is the use by individuals strated the clear fact that, unless change is of a taxpayer funded service as a platform forced upon it, the ABC will remain a virtual for expressing their own prejudices under the law unto itself in matters of bias and lack of pretence of reporting on current affairs. This balance. is an abuse of public moneys. It is com- Responding to my question about why it pletely at odds with the purpose for which should be that leftist—or ‘politically accept- these individuals were hired and it is incon- able’ organisations—were not identified as sistent with the responsibilities they have promoting that particular class of political been given. It ought to be completely unac- view when being used as talent by the ABC ceptable, first and foremost, to the manage- when right-wing think tanks were thus iden- ment of the ABC. I find it incomprehensible tified, he said this: that those individuals who have been found Your comments … appear to suggest that the to so abuse their office should simply be al- ABC should label organisations when reporting lowed to continue as if nothing had hap- their comments. The ABC’s role is to offer a pened. It is completely unacceptable that the broad range of views without itself making value presenter of AM, Linda Mottram, who has judgments about the political or other perspective displayed what even the panel describes as that a group represents. ‘serious bias’, should escape censure. It does Of course, if only the ABC would do that— nothing to convince the community—the just that—without the subliminal subtext, community that funds the ABC—that the then everything would be fine. Mr Balding national broadcaster is serious about balance, went on to say: accountability and professionalism. While I appreciate the point you are making, I There are other individuals who also, in believe that if the ABC were to ‘label’ groups as my view, deserve censure. One of them is you have suggested, we could rightly be accused John Shovelan, whom the independent com- of over-simplification and stereotyping. plaints panel found had basically indulged Dealing with a rash of complaints in that his personal penchant for bad-mouthing the area, of course, would present a wholly new American President from his post in Wash- and entirely novel challenge for the ABC’s ington. Another is the head of news and cur- in-house complaints review process. It would rent affairs, Max Uechtritz, who is still give them all a nice change of air—a sea stoutly defended by managing director Rus- change perhaps, something of real value. sell Balding over his highly questionable There is nothing like a real challenge to get judgment in conference remarks overseas. the circulation going. Mr Balding concluded: But it is not only the corporation’s failure We prefer to present a range of views in accor- to act in this respect that is a matter of grave dance with our published editorial policies and

CHAMBER 16486 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 concern. The panel’s report, defensive of the You and your colleague Senator Alston should be ABC as it is, surely made one thing clear. held accountable to the Australian taxpayer for The ABC’s much-vaunted complaints review wasting countless hours of ABC staff time in an- executive is a sham. Even the panel notes swering your baseless allegations. that the complaints review executive, when it That was from the Friends of the ABC. I upheld a complaint, only did so in a grudging wrote back to them and said: way. Obviously there were many faults that Dear Mr Cook the panel found which the complaints review I have received your letter of 19 September 2003. executive had chosen to ignore. This is obvi- Allow me to confirm to you that the Sydney ous. It is incontestable. Yet the corporation Morning Herald accurately reported me as a true treats it as if it had not occurred. Rather than friend of the ABC. admit there is a problem that needs to be ad- It is always pleasing to be accurately reported and dressed, Mr Balding merely notes the panel’s to have one’s views correctly interpreted. Let me ‘taking a different view to the Complaints also confirm to you my unshakable belief that Review Executive on some issues’. there are many more (true) friends of the ABC I believe that the ABC must make it a pri- than those who are to be found within the incor- ority to review and improve its processes for porated NSW entity of which you are the president. dealing with complaints. The fact of the matter is that the ABC’s internal complaints- These self-proclaimed defenders of the ABC handling processes are far from meeting rea- seem to believe that they have the ABC’s sonable expectations. They buy the ABC best interests at heart. They are passionately time, they help put off all but the most de- convinced that all those who question how termined and they create a pretence of objec- the ABC conducts its affairs are, by defini- tivity, but they are merely ways of shielding tion, the corporation’s enemies. I have no those who would abuse their positions and reason to doubt these people’s sincerity, but I keep the community’s resources from genu- do believe that, with friends like these, the ine and effective accountability. A complete ABC hardly needs enemies for, like all mere overhaul of those complaints procedures is flatterers, they are fake friends who actually therefore needed. cause more harm than good. Since I first raised these issues in this If the ABC is to fulfil its charter and rise chamber, I have received correspondence to its responsibilities, thereby protecting and from an organisation that calls itself the preserving the standing it has inherited from Friends of the ABC, and I want to read that the past, what it most desperately needs are correspondence to the Senate. The president, friends who are willing to speak the truth. It Mr Gary Cook, wrote to me and said: needs friends who will identify those areas where things are not as they should be and You were reported in the Sydney Morning Herald of 17 September, 2003 as having written to ABC insist on the need to meet community expec- Managing Director, Russell Balding, describing tations to ensure performance to the highest yourself as a “true friend” of the ABC. standards. It is in this way, and in this way Please desist from describing yourself as such. To only, that the corporation’s future can be as- do so is an insult to thousands of members of sured. Those in the community who are the Friends of the ABC throughout Australia who are ABC’s real friends—and I again stress in this passionate devotees of the ABC with no vested place that I count myself among them— interest but to defend the ABC from unwarranted therefore should not and cannot shy away attacks on its editorial independence. from the task of careful monitoring and on-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16487 going review. Doing this is the key to secur- ment did nothing, at least publicly, until its ing an ABC that can match the best in the own watchdog program, Media Watch, got world in the professionalism and objectivity onto them. It is also true that the person con- of its reporting. cerned has now resigned. But this does not In saying this, I am mindful of a deplor- excuse the ABC’s original lack of judgment able trend in the ABC’s coverage of news in allowing the screening of vision obviously and current affairs towards a reliance on ex- staged in incredibly dangerous and quite un- aggeration and sensationalism that is more necessary circumstances. commonly associated with the worst ex- Nor is the ABC’s problem confined to cesses of British tabloid journalism. I have questions of whether it is, at all times and in had the opportunity to read a forthcoming all circumstances, perfectly balanced and Institute of Public Affairs report, written by profoundly unbiased. There are significant journalists Tim Blair and James Morrow, that management issues that remain unresolved. focuses on what might be termed the ‘tab- The decision to cut schools programming loidification’ of a once revered Australian and end the production of the veteran current institution. All the examples cited in that re- affairs program for students Behind the News port relate to the coverage of the recent war is, at face value, a matter for ABC manage- in Iraq. I stress that none are from AM, the ment and its board. The decision to end the program examined for bias following Sena- cadet journalist program is similarly some- tor Alston’s complaint. Suffice it to say that thing that, in an independent national broad- the examples Blair and Morrow cite verge on caster, is properly a matter for management the lurid. Had they appeared in the daily pa- and the board. But they are both bad deci- pers, they would have been held up for scorn sions. Let me repeat that. They are both bad by the politically correct as examples of how decisions. They demonstrate that the ABC is low the Australian press had sunk. But, be- more interested in making political state- cause they were on the ABC, they have been ments of its own—and, in relation to the ca- allowed to pass without the censure they call det program, cutting off its nose to spite its for and richly deserve. face—than in controlling cost centres that To so debase the quality of journalism is really are secondary to its core business. not merely at odds with what Australian tax- There is no real need to send Mr Uechtritz payers can rightly expect from the broad- swanning around the world to make bar caster they fund; it also leads the ABC’s room quips at international conferences. journalists to act in ways that are increas- There is no need to be quite so generous with ingly unacceptable. It is surely this climate the designer clobber they gift to their on-air of sensationalism that induced an ABC jour- people. They could probably make some nalist to knowingly place children’s lives at pretty substantial savings in the car fleet, too, risk for the sake of having a good story. I if they really tried. I have detailed all these refer to the incident in which an ABC re- costs in earlier speeches, and I will not go porter encouraged some Iraqi children to through them again but they are on the re- pose near an unexploded bomb so as to make cord and should be noted. The ABC repeat- her account of the situation more compelling. edly says that it is committed to accountabil- It is true that the ABC has stated that such ity but it repeatedly provides fresh evidence behaviour is inappropriate, and I recognise that it is not. Regrettably, that is the reason and applaud it for that, but it has done noth- that I need to stand up in this place time after ing to address its root causes. ABC manage- time to report on it. If it genuinely thinks it is

CHAMBER 16488 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 accountable then now is the time it must dir, unemployment remains a huge problem. show that it is serious about tackling the is- There are 4,778 unemployed people in the sues and problems I have been outlining. Deputy Prime Minister’s electorate. That is Until the ABC backs words with deeds, all 8.5 per cent of the electorate—2.7 per cent those who are genuinely committed to the higher than the national rate of 5.8 per cent. national broadcaster should and will continue What I would like to bring to the Senate’s to press for the ABC to uphold its charter and attention today is the meanness with which meet the demands the community rightly the federal government is treating people places upon it. who have lost their jobs in the Deputy Prime Rural and Regional Australia: Unem- Minister’s electorate. In doing so, I want to ployment give two examples. The first is the cuts to the Senator HUTCHINS (New South Wales) Centrelink staff in the town of Moree, and (12.59 p.m.)—I want to speak this afternoon the second is the federal government’s fail- about unemployment. As you would be well ure to guarantee entitlements to the 254 em- aware, Mr Acting Deputy President, unem- ployees made redundant following the clo- ployment remains an issue that affects large sure of the Mudgee Regional Abattoir. numbers of people throughout Australia, par- The town of Moree in north-western New ticularly in regional and rural Australia. The South Wales has a population of around Senate Community Affairs References 10,500. The unemployment rate in Moree is Committee, of which I am the chair, has re- 11.6 per cent. That is more than double the cently conducted an inquiry into poverty and national average. A large number of people financial hardship. From speaking to people living in Moree rely on payments from Cen- in urban and regional locations throughout trelink to get by—that is, nearly 5,500 people Australia, we heard that unemployment rein Moree received a payment or benefit from mains a major cause of poverty in Australia Centrelink of some kind. As a result, many and that not having a job not only affects an of these people rely on the hardworking staff individual financially but affects their esteem at Centrelink in Moree to help them get by. A and social wellbeing. It deprives people of constituent of mine living in Moree recently the basic dignity to manage their own affairs. contacted my office. The young lady in ques- The current figure for unemployment in tion is an employee at Centrelink in Moree Australia is 5.8 per cent. This is an issue that and has been given a termination notice by the current government prides itself on. In- her manager. In the notice, her manager told deed, the Deputy Prime Minister, John her the following: Anderson, the member for Gwydir, recently ... the termination of your services does not relate commented in an interview: to any adverse performance or conduct issue ... The participation rate has gone up strongly and I Instead, he told her: am greatly encouraged by that. We all might like Termination is on the basis that funding within to see that figure slip below 6 percent, so it has a the Area has been substantially reduced no longer 5 in front of it. But it’s still a very good result, enabling the performance of additional tasks or with total employment now running at historically functions by non-ongoing staff. the highest level ever, in the context of an Austra- In other words, the government has cut or lian economy that is doing very well. reduced funding so that Centrelink is being This is an economy that has been growing forced to shed staff in Moree. This will not since 1993, not just since 1996. Yet in the only add to the already big unemployment Deputy Prime Minister’s own seat of Gwy-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16489 problem in Moree but make things harder for eral Corporations Act, there is nothing in the the 5,500 people in that town who rely on GEERS operational agreement arrangements Centrelink staff to assist them. Here we have that excludes employees of county councils. an opportunity for the federal government to In fact, the New South Wales government act, if they seek to do so. But what they are has already come to the party. The govern- doing in a town like Moree, with an unem- ment is one of the many creditors at the abat- ployment rate of 11.6 per cent, is cutting jobs toir. Under the legislation governing the ab- back further. Where they have control over attoir, the New South Wales government en- it, they are doing nothing about it. joys priority as a creditor, ahead of employ- In a town like Mudgee, which is also in ees. However, the New South Wales gov- the seat of Gwydir, the unemployment rate is ernment has agreed not to claim debts owed eight per cent—that is, 302 people are regis- to it to ensure that GEERS, the federal tered as unemployed. Recently, however, the scheme, can come into operation. But the local council run Mudgee Regional Abattoir federal government still refuses to pay out closed its doors and the 254 employees lost these workers’ entitlements. their jobs. As you would be aware, Mr Act- In the far west of New South Wales, ing Deputy President, in areas like that, one where we have an uncaring local member, of those jobs probably employs two, three or the Deputy Prime Minister, where we have in four other people on the outside. As has oc- pockets double the national average of un- curred numerous times in recent years with employment, where people are asking the companies throughout Australia, the abattoir federal government to do something about closed with debts far in excess of its assets. unemployment and to give them an opportu- In these situations in the past, the federal nity to restore basic dignity to their lives, government’s General Employee Entitle- what is he doing? He is doing bugger all. He ments and Redundancy Scheme, GEERS, is is doing nothing about the Centrelink situa- supposed to guarantee the entitlements of tion, where he could intervene to make sure redundant workers like those at the Mudgee that those jobs are maintained and that the Regional Abattoir. However, as so often has people who rely on Centrelink do not have to been the case in relation to workers’ entitle- queue outside the door to gain access to ments, the federal government is playing whatever they are entitled to. He could inter- politics with this issue and doing its utmost vene and make sure these jobs are main- to renege on its responsibility to ensure these tained. However, there is no evidence that workers get the entitlements owed to them. the local member is going to do that. In September the Deputy Prime Minister In fact, in the Mudgee abattoirs, where the announced that, because the abattoir was run federal government set up a scheme to look by a local council, the New South Wales after situations like this and where the New government should guarantee these workers’ South Wales government has walked away to entitlements. This is in spite of the fact that allow free run for the federal government to the Howard government has acknowledged operate, they are doing nothing again. Two that employee entitlements in cases of insol- hundred and fifty-four employees of Mudgee vency is a federal issue. This is why GEERS Regional Abattoir have lost their jobs, have was established in the first place. Whilst it is received no entitlements and have received true that the abattoir, due to its unique nature, no sympathy or assistance from their local is set up and operated under New South federal member. One wonders why people Wales legislation rather than under the fed- out in the west of New South Wales would

CHAMBER 16490 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 even consider returning someone like John stand, to the Bali widows’ group. In that pho- Anderson as the federal member. I note that tograph is our Prime Minister, as indeed he the National Party has changed its name should be, with a number of football players again, to the Nationals. I suggest to the peo- including, if I am correct, Jason McCartney. ple of Gwydir that they change their mem- The Prime Minister is holding the hand of a ber, just as the Nationals changed their name. young child, four-year-old Sara Sammaki. In Senator McGauran—I raise a point of fact, both Sammaki children are in the pho- order, Mr Acting Deputy President. As a tograph. Next to Sara and the Prime Minister general point, the previous speaker used a is Sara’s brother, Sabda Sammaki, who I particular word, which I am sure you heard think would be eight years old now. Of and which I am reluctant to repeat, although course, these two children have lost their I will if you wish. I did not pull him up on it mother. Their mother was killed in the bomb- but I have dwelled on it. It is an Australian ing in Bali and their father, Mr Ibrahim colloquialism; he may well have been using Sammaki, is detained in the Baxter detention it in that sense but, properly defined, I would centre in South Australia. I am not sure, hav- think it would be an unparliamentary term, ing seen this photograph, whether my heart so I bring it to your attention. leaps with maybe the prospect of a swift and compassionate resolution to this case in sight The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT or whether it sinks at the fact that the Prime (Senator Marshall)—Senator McGauran, he Minister was in a photograph displaying his clearly was not using it in the properly de- compassion towards these children, but I fined sense and you accept that, so I do not wonder if he knew exactly of their predica- think there is a point of order. ment. Senator McGauran—I am not asking On Sunday, like many other honourable him to withdraw but, for the understanding senators, I was involved in memorial and of the Senate, I bring that word to your atten- commemorative ceremonies. In particular, I tion and seek a general ruling on the word. was involved in the one in my home state of The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— South Australia. A private ceremony was I will take advice on that and I will report held in Adelaide in the botanic gardens. It any advice I receive back to you, Senator was a very moving, emotional tribute, as you McGauran. would expect, to the victims of the Bali trag- Immigration: Visas edy and an opportunity for survivors and Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- their families to meet and deal with a number tralia) (1.09 p.m.)—I rise today to draw the of the issues arising from the tragedy. At that Senate’s attention to an ongoing and heart- memorial in the botanic gardens at Adelaide breaking matter that involves the Sammaki was Mr Ibrahim Sammaki. He was allowed children. This is an issue that has been drawn to leave Baxter detention centre for a number to the attention of the Senate previously by of hours on that day so that he could mourn Democrats and others but should receive the loss of his wife, Endang, who died in the renewed attention today. I have just been bombings. He was flanked, as you would made aware of a photograph that was taken probably not be surprised to hear, by three four days ago in Bali, featuring our Prime ACM guards, so that there was no prospect Minister and the Geckos football club. They of him escaping. I certainly did not get the presented a cheque for the proceeds of their impression that he was going to escape any- goodwill fundraising footy game, I under- where. In fact, when I met Mr Ibrahim

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16491

Sammaki, I met a grief-stricken, saddened is still reeling from the effects of the bomb- man who is locked up in detention in our ing. Understandably, that is difficult. country while his two children are grieving There are a number of us who not only are the loss of their mother. concerned about this case but have taken Mr Sammaki is in Baxter following his steps to see what we can do. Magistrate application for asylum some two years ago. Brian Deegan, as senators would be aware, His two children, Sara and Sabda, have been lost his son Josh in the Bali bombing. Brian cared for in Indonesia since their mother’s Deegan, Kate Reynolds MLC and I have death. Ibrahim was given permission to applied to sponsor both children to come to travel, as I said, to take part in that ceremony Australia—you can only sponsor one child at in South Australia on the weekend. He had a time through the regulations. I should ex- the opportunity to meet with a number of plain that our request for visas has been de- members of parliament. The Premier, Mr nied, and we are currently in the process of Mike Rann, and of course Her Excellency appealing that. We are asking that these prac- the Governor of South Australia were there, tically orphaned children, who are reeling and all expressed their sorrow and condo- from their mother’s incredible and unfortu- lences to this man on his loss. Ibrahim’s and nate death a year ago, come for two weeks— Endang’s children, Sara and Sabda, are cur- just two weeks—so they can see their grief- rently being cared for by an Indonesian stricken father and know that he is alive. We woman, Asriana Kebon, who went to school have made it clear that we guarantee to meet in Adelaide, South Australia. financial, character or any other conditions There are many compelling parts to the suggested by the department, because we are case involving these children, which have so confident that this man, Mr Ibrahim been documented widely, including by the Sammaki will not flee and will not abuse the Leader of the Australian Democrats, me and visa conditions. The children should have the Kate Reynolds, who is an Australian Democ- right to see their father, particularly under rat member of the Legislative Council in these conditions. I hope that our Prime Min- South Australia. These kids have not seen ister has softened to that idea, because it their father for more than two years. Their makes me upset to see him in this photo- mother is now dead, so they are virtually graph holding one of the children’s hands orphaned. They are not from Bali. Their and yet they cannot come to Australia for mother travelled to Bali to get legal assis- two weeks. tance to help her husband to be released from People may say that those are the rules, Baxter Detention Centre. Like others, tragi- and we all acknowledge we have to live by cally, and ironically, she was killed in the the rules, but something that the Democrats blast in Kuta. All alone apparently, these have repeatedly described as almost a visa children were sold into servitude in the red- lottery confounds me. There are two con- light district in Bali. They are now safe, not trasting cases that we have all been made through any good deeds of our government, aware of recently. As we know, a business- unfortunately, but through the kindness of a man who was wanted in connection with a young Indonesian-Australian woman who major fraud case in the Philippines was able rescued them and cares for them, although to obtain a visa and Australian citizenship, she is finding it increasingly difficult to sup- but two children whose mother was killed in port two extra children in a community that Bali and whose father is detained in Baxter cannot get a visa for two weeks to see their

CHAMBER 16492 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 father. The Democrats, and I am sure many and I think they did legitimately, but here is others, have received emails, faxes, phone something we can do to make a difference. I calls—you name it. You only have to look at urge the new minister to make a difference, the letters to the editor sections of the press, because this is a truly heartbreaking case. particularly after the memorial services on Defence: Expenditure the weekend, to see that people want this Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia) case resolved. They want to see a basic ex- (1.21 p.m.)—I rise to speak on the issue of pression of compassion and decency from defence expenditure. In my 18 months as a our government. I hope that the Prime Minis- senator, my membership of joint and Senate ter, having met Sara and Sabda on the week- committees relevant to defence matters has end, will renew his approach to this case, and provided me with a somewhat unique oppor- hopefully the new Minister for Immigration tunity to gain a valuable insight into the and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs will processes associated with defence materiel be compelled to act on this issue. purchases. There is no denying that defence The children are missing their father des- materiel purchasing and procurement is in- perately, as you would expect. Reports are deed a very complex and difficult business. that when they are around people with whom When I first started working in this area, it they feel comfortable they are quite outgo- was generally accepted that at any one time ing. They have been in front of cameras, as there were up to $25 billion worth of defence some of you may have seen. Certainly the contracts for the acquisition of some form of Compass program this week featured footage defence capability in existence in any year. of the children with Magistrate Deegan. More recently, the figure of $50 billion has They are no strangers to a degree of public- been suggested as the current estimate. ity, as attention has been drawn to their Many of these contracts and projects have plight repeatedly over the past year. But I been ongoing for a considerable length of want us as a Senate to consider their case. I time, having had their genesis during the life want to put on record that there are some of of the previous Hawke-Keating administra- us—and many others, I presume—who are tions. I was therefore somewhat surprised prepared to act as guarantors for these chil- and a little bemused when I heard the oppo- dren so they can come here for two weeks to sition’s Treasury spokesman, the member for see their father. Our best wishes are with Mr Werriwa, on Monday, 13 October, professing Ibrahim Sammaki. I look forward to a swift to be an instant expert on all matters pertain- resolution of this case. As I indicated, we are ing to defence expenditure. A wise man once appealing the recent decision through the said, ‘Sometimes it is better to say nothing Migration Review Tribunal. I urge fellow rather than to speak for the sake of speaking.’ senators, if you do have an opportunity, to This is advice the opposition Treasury have a look at this photograph. I urge the spokesperson should perhaps heed, rather Prime Minister to act on the feelings of com- than expounding his exaggerated pretences passion and concern that he displayed over and holding himself out as the supreme au- the weekend on this particular case. I believe thority on all matters and things. His outburst it was pointed out by one letter writer to the earlier this week about defence expenditure letters page of a newspaper—I cannot recall discloses a concerning lack of knowledge which one—that it is one thing for our lead- and understanding about this complex and ers to express their concerns over the week- difficult area, and perhaps before he speaks end for the deaths and the tragedy of Bali,

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16493 again on the topic he should do his home- expanded range of powers to make im- work a little more thoroughly, or at least a provements to the delivery of defence pro- little more competently. jects and to the management of the DMO, Defence spending, and the checks and including empowering the CEO to revise balances on that expenditure, has been a DMO staffing and remuneration policies in problem for both sides of government over order that the CEO is able to attract and re- the last 20 years. It is not a new phenome- tain high-quality project managers from the non, as the Labor Party would have us be- military, industry or public service on the lieve. The government is, and continues to basis of merit and for extended tenures. be, concerned about defence contracts and The review and reform proposal includes projects that do not deliver specified capabil- a recommendation to cut the existing total ity or equipment on time and on budget. This number of people working within the DMO was recognised by the government, in the from 7,000 down to 500. To effect this mas- first instance, with the establishment three sive organisational and cultural change and years ago of the Defence Materiel Organisa- to bring about cost-effective efficiencies, it tion as an agency to focus solely on the pur- will be necessary to attract a high-quality chase of defence equipment and related ser- candidate to be the new CEO of the agency. vices. To this end, there is a need for a worldwide To further refine the process related to de- search to select a CEO with the specialist fence acquisitions, the Minister for Defence expertise to lead the DMO into the future. announced on 18 September this year that he The CEO would be expected to work closely had implemented a range of reforms to fur- with the Secretary to the Department of De- ther improve defence purchasing arrange- fence to implement the recommendations of ments. The reforms were based on recom- the Kinnaird review. mendations of the Kinnaird review. Malcolm In my view, it will be necessary to pay any Kinnaird, Len Early and Bill Schofield were such high-calibre specialist appropriately, appointed in December last year to review a remembering that we are talking about an range of issues associated with major de- organisation that currently has up to $50 bil- fence acquisitions. The review team worked lion worth of contracts at some stage of de- closely with the DMO and with the Depart- velopment. If this means that this person is ment of Finance and Administration to ex- the highest paid person on the government’s amine the key challenges associated with the payroll, then so be it. It is critical that we development of Australian Defence Force secure someone with world-class expertise capability and the acquisition and support of and skills to manage the complex and diffi- defence equipment. cult process associated with defence materiel As a result of this review, the government acquisition. If we are fortunate enough to has decided to implement a range of meas- secure someone with the required skills, it ures to ensure that taxpayers’ money is spent does not take too much imagination to work wisely and, above all, to maintain public out that only a marginal improvement in ef- confidence in the defence procurement proc- ficiency will result in savings of not just mil- ess. This has included a major restructuring lions of dollars but possibly hundreds of mil- of the DMO to make it a world-class, best lions of dollars. Of course, it goes without practice organisation, including giving the saying that, just as with each of the chiefs of new chief executive officer of the DMO an each of the senior services, the position car- ries with it a unique and heavy burden of

CHAMBER 16494 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 responsibility, with life and death conse- less than desired. Worse still, the Krupp Atlas quences in the event of poor performance. minehunting sonar failed to perform to any Notwithstanding the opportunistic and shal- specification. low political point scoring of the member for It is hard to state exactly the amount of Werriwa I would suggest that, whatever the money expended on this project by the then successful applicant is paid, if he is a success government. However, the defence depart- it will be money well spent. ment’s program performance statements for I remind people on the other side of the 1992-93 show that, to 30 June 1992, not less chamber that their 13 years in government than $102 million had been spent. In addi- were affected not just by problem years for tion, a further $13 million was authorised to defence materiel acquisitions; they were 13 be spent in 1992-93. All of this was to no years of unmitigated disasters in virtually avail. At the conclusion of the contract, the every aspect of defence spending and policy. two minehunter vessels were constructed In 1986 the Public Accounts Committee ex- but, as a consequence of the design deficien- amined defence expenditure procedures and cies I have mentioned, they were confined to processes. They found that most problems Sydney Harbour and used for minehunter arose from ineffective defence project man- warfare training. They were eventually de- agement, including poor assessment of fi- commissioned in 2001, having been laid up nancial and technical risks—this was in in reserve for many years before that. 1986—cost and time underestimates; inade- Let us turn now to the FA18 procurement quate project planning; insufficient attention program. Australia signed a contract in Oc- to management information and control ar- tober 1981 for the provision of 75 FA18 air- rangements; inadequate technical specifica- craft, of which 18 were to be two-seater ver- tions in contracts; a lack of comprehensive sions. The first two aircraft were manufac- tender evaluations et cetera. tured in the United States, with the remainder In 1992 the inshore minehunter proceeded being assembled in Australia. Delivery took to development, a project that was inaugu- place between February 1985 and May 1990. rated in 1976. For various technical reasons, The Industry Commission records that, for a vessel with three key characteristics was the FA18 fighter acquisition, the depart- required. First, the hulls and equipment had ment’s estimate of what it would cost to un- to be, as far as possible, absolutely non- dertake local construction was ‘significantly magnetic. Second, a sonar capable of reliably in error’. The error was so large that the dif- detecting mines in shallow and disturbed ference between the estimated premium and water was required. Third, the hull had to be that actually paid would have bought an ex- sufficiently stable to allow the craft to oper- tra 14 aircraft. In general, the Industry ate in inclement weather, up to a defined sea Commission said that, based on the evidence state. A prototype construction and evalua- available to it, ‘the Commission concludes tion contract was let for $112 million in 1990 that only in very few major capital equip- by the then Labor government, after a 1988 ment projects have the nature and extent of project definition study. Unfortunately, two premiums been adequately and rigorously of the three necessary characteristics were assessed.’ never achieved by this prototype. While the Of course, in looking at the record of the catamaran type hull of glass-reinforced plas- opposition when in government, we must tic was indeed non-magnetic, it transpired turn to the Collins class submarine. As early that its stability in inclement conditions was

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16495 as 1992, the Australian National Audit Office and, of course, the McIntosh-Prescott report raised a number of concerns about the in June 1999 that exposed the full extent of Collins submarine project. The audit found: the failings of administration by the previous Substantial profits were made by the contractor Labor government. (the Australian Submarine Corporation—ASC) Let me turn to the 1994-95 acquisition of well before the first boat was launched (August the two US landing ships. In brief, the for- 1993), and the Federal Government appears to mer Labor government decided to acquire have funded seventy five per cent of ASC’s assets two ex-US Navy landing ships at a claimed as distinct from only two per cent funded by the ASC shareholders (the balance being eighteen per bargain basement price of $61 million. This cent ‘third parties’ and four per cent from the was an example of the post Cold War de- South Australian Government). fence equipment fire sale phenomenon, The shareholders nevertheless achieved sub- where equipment surplus to the super- stantial profits which, no matter what may power—and, indeed, to others—came onto occur in the future, are apparently irrecover- the market at such reduced prices that mid- able by the Commonwealth by virtue of a dle-ranking countries such as Australia could specific clause in the contract. Over 60 per not resist them. However, it was subse- cent of the total contract price had already quently found that both ex-US vessels were been paid to the Australian Submarine Cor- severely affected by rust. This rust was in poration by late 1992, before the first boat places apparently inaccessible before the was even in the water, and the corporation main boilers were removed in Australia, thus apparently achieved significant returns for the Navy team that examined the ships did itself by the simple expedient of investing not see it. The upshot of this rust problem funds not immediately required. was that the original $61 million acquisition blew out to a staggering $340 million—close A serious and significant Audit observa- on $300 million up in smoke. The ships tion concerned the performance of the RAN eventually were refitted at substantial cost Submarine Project Office. It said: and entered service as HMAS Manoora and Despite the Contractor’s often strong tactics the HMAS Kanimbla. Project Office continues to view the Contractor as almost an extension of itself ... At times it has Lastly, I would like to talk about the appeared to the ANAO that the Project Office has JORN over-the-horizon radar. JORN is a a perspective that its role is to act as an agent of long-range radar project designed to give the Contractor in its dealings with the Common- broad area surveillance of the northern ap- wealth rather than as an arm of the Common- proaches to Australia. The prime contractor wealth monitoring and controlling the Contractor. was Telstra, working for the Department of Given the importance of the functions of a Defence through a Defence JORN project Defence project office for a construction ef- office. The contract was a fixed price type. fort on the scale of the Collins class subma- The Australian National Audit Office identi- rine project, this is one of the most signifi- fied in detail the systematic failure in the cant and critical comments ever to come acquisition of this capability. The final cost from an independent observer, the Australian in the losses associated with the JORN pro- National Audit Office. There was a second ject will probably never be known. However, ANAO report on Collins in 1998. This was it was finally revealed that $600 million had followed by hearings before the Joint Com- to be written off the presale value of Telstra mittee on Public Accounts and Audit in 1999 in order to cover the losses incurred on the JORN contract.

CHAMBER 16496 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

I will not go into the absolute detail of this cient and effective system of defence mate- monumental defence acquisition disaster. riel acquisition. Suffice it to say that it occurred under the Veterans’ Affairs Portfolio watch of the opposition. However, the whole Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- JORN saga absolutely highlights the disas- tralia) (1.34 p.m.)—I rise on this matter of trous period of defence acquisition misman- public interest to speak about the recent min- agement that occurred during the previous isterial reshuffle announced by the Prime Labor government. By my most conservative Minister on 28 September, and in particular estimate, it would appear that at least $2 bil- the implications for the Veterans’ Affairs lion of taxpayers’ money was frittered away portfolio. At a time when many Australians during Labor’s term in office on defence ma- give little credence to much of the Prime teriel acquisitions that simply went wrong Minister’s assertions of fact, there can be no and failed to be surveyed properly, ade- doubt about the merit principle as has been quately or efficiently. applied to ministerial appointments. Cer- What has to be recognised is that the coa- tainly, in the case of the Veterans’ Affairs lition government confronted this massive portfolio, merit has been the missing hall- problem head on and never once shirked at mark, and the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs the enormity of the reform process associ- has now had her responsibilities dramatically ated with the Defence Materiel Organisation. reduced. In the first instance Ministers McLachlan, Clearly, the role of Minister Assisting the Moore and Reith instigated cultural change Minister for Defence has been too much, within Defence to ensure that the job would with the Defence portfolio in chaos. I do not be done with a significant increase in the wish to address all the Defence shortcomings level of efficiency in achieving viable and today, nor the minister’s obvious role in that positive outcomes for the taxpayer. mess, but rather to concentrate on the fail- The current Minister for Defence, my col- ings in the Veterans’ Affairs portfolio to league Senator Hill, has followed in his which the minister has now been confined. predecessor’s footsteps and tackled this dif- By way of background, the combination of ficult and complex task with extraordinary the portfolio of Veterans’ Affairs with the zeal and enthusiasm. Above all, he has Minister Assisting the Minister for Defence achieved significant results in making the has always been an obvious one, simply be- DMO totally accountable for their actions at cause in this modern day we are dealing with every step of the procurement process. It has ADF personnel in service and post service. not necessarily made him popular with gov- It was only ever the sheer size of the ad- ernment officials, as he has had to make ministrative task after World War I, and some onerous and difficult decisions to en- again after World War II, which necessitated sure that the Australian taxpayer gets value a separate, dedicated bureaucracy to care for for money with defence acquisitions. By all the large number of servicemen and service- means, the opposition and the member for women repatriated from abroad. Many of Werriwa should bring us to account. How- them were in poor physical shape, and most ever, the opportunistic comments the mem- of them needed assistance re-entering a ber for Werriwa has made in so doing are at postwar society which had changed radically best grandstanding in the hope of cheap po- during their few short years of absence. The litical point scoring and not at all helpful in remnants of this remain, with the Repatria- progressing the development of a cost effi-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16497 tion Commission still intact after more than In the recent reshuffle we have seen the 80 years with its extraordinary powers and return of two ministers, one now restricted to open-ended appropriations. Also at the core Vet er a ns’Affairs and the other to specialise, of this independent body, which has always we are told, in cleaning up Defence pro- remained separate from the Defence portfo- curement but including, we presume, per- lio, was the fact that the bulk of its clients sonnel responsibilities. This is a great pity, were volunteers whose care would always because the bringing together of the veterans’ have been a distraction for Defence. task into Defence was eminently sensible. It This has, however, proved a messy ar- certainly put paid to veterans’ fears that they rangement with unclear division of responsi- would be transferred to Centrelink. But it bility for a whole range of personnel matters, also breaks the potential for the continuity of such as compensation for service related in- personnel services, regardless of the type of jury, health care and family support. As well, service given, which is so essential. Thanks there is a whole range of personnel entitle- only to the inability of the minister to pursue ments which flow from the Veterans’ Enti- this task, we see several years of effort tlements Act, the Defence Act and a number wasted. of compensation schemes covering the mili- There is, however, more to the story of the tary going back as far as 1930. To an out- ministerial reshuffle as it affects Veterans’ sider, and to many serving and ex-service Affairs. Put simply, Veterans’ Affairs policy people, this is a nightmare begging reform. is in complete disarray. Single-handedly, this And so it was that the Veterans’ Affairs port- minister has substituted public relations for folio was brought into the ambit of Defence policy formulation and service delivery. As under the Minister for Defence, with the veterans often say, and rightly so, the minis- Minister for Veterans’ Affairs also charged ter has concentrated exclusively, or near ex- with the responsibility for Defence personnel clusively, on building monuments for which and a range of other matters, including mate- she can cut the opening ribbon. Her travel riel procurement. around the globe is now legend and, in itself, There was also some sense in this move is an explanation for her failure to do her job. from a Defence point of view in that within So not only was the Prime Minister right in the portfolio there was now an organisation, discharging her from her ministerial respon- despite its arcane power and institutional sibilities but also he could perhaps have gone structure, with a history of service delivery further. No-one questions the need to com- specialising in ex-Defence personnel, albeit memorate the deeds and commitment of only some of them. As many ex-service peo- Australia’s personnel and veterans, but it has ple are happy to tell you, one of the matters become an obsession costing tens of millions Defence does badly is the care of ex-service of dollars which could be better used caring people, especially when they have been dis- for those veterans and war widows in need. abled in some way through their service. The This particular minister is clearly oblivi- concentration of this service in an organisa- ous to needs, so it might be worth reminding tion specialising in the delivery of health her of what they are as she now contemplates care and the payment of income support and the added time she has available. First, she compensation, as well as discharge and post- needs to examine those younger veterans discharge services, seemed logical. Now, who are struggling to make ends meet with however, it has proved too much as the dual family responsibilities and who are trapped ministerial role has been shattered. on TPI pensions which not only are inade-

CHAMBER 16498 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 quate in some respects but effectively dis- Perhaps if the minister read her corre- courage rehabilitation because of the limited spondence—and we know she cannot answer capacity to work. it—she would know this is a burning prob- But, as we know, the minister holds the lem which is continuing to fester and get TPI community in contempt. She refused to worse. The Minister for Veterans’ Affairs has address their rally outside Parliament House an onerous responsibility for veterans which last June and she persists with her allegations is in default. Let us all hope, in the interests that they are all well paid, earning more than of veterans, that there is some immediate $1,900 per fortnight. Such generalisations improvement. prove the ineptitude. It is no wonder that the Fisheries: Southern Bluefin Tuna Western Australian branch of the TPI Federa- Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- tion has passed a no-confidence motion, sland—Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and which has now been joined by another from Conservation) (1.43 p.m.)—Yesterday in the RSL in South Australia. These are un- question time I had the opportunity to men- precedented actions from a normally conser- tion, too briefly, the very significant work vative veteran community. that Australia has done in relation to the Cen- Second, she needs to look carefully at tral and Western Pacific Fisheries Commis- those war widows who struggle to make ends sion, the commission that is related to highly meet in the private rental market in full migratory species, and also the work that has knowledge that they have no entitlement to been done by Australia in leading the discus- rent assistance. She might also examine the sions at the Commission for the Conserva- needs of those widows of younger veterans tion of Southern Bluefin Tuna. Not many denied access to welfare benefits, including Australians would be aware of the very sig- the income support supplement. The minister nificant part that fish play in our exports and might also pay some attention to the 109 in jobs and opportunities around the coast of recommendations of the review of veterans’ Australia. Australia has a small but very entitlements by Justice Clarke, which has high-quality high-seas fishing fleet. As well, been in her pigeonhole for over six months it has a very good export trade in high- now. quality, clean and green imaged seafood, Given that the minister has had her re- particularly to Asia and North America. As a sponsibility for the development of the new government, in conjunction with the fishing military compensation scheme removed from industry, we do put a lot of effort into the her, she should also heed the views of the management of our fisheries, not only do- veteran community who are outraged at her mestic fisheries. The states handle a lot of proposal to offset the TPI special rate pen- the fisheries very close to the shore. The sion. As Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, how- Commonwealth handles fisheries more dis- ever, the minister must continue to represent tant within our exclusive economic zone. We the interests of veterans in the new Military also play a very significant part in the man- Compensation Scheme. The minister must agement of those highly migratory species, also act immediately to stop the rot on the fish stocks that we share with other countries gold card, whereby we are seeing increasing in our region. numbers of medical specialists leaving the The commission for highly migratory spe- system. cies in the central and western Pacific met a couple of weeks ago in the Cook Islands.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16499

Whilst the commission is not yet fully scientific committee, under Dr John Kalish formed and fully legal, a number of prepara- from the Bureau of Rural Sciences, and that tory conferences have been held. What we committee has successfully resolved the sci- hope was the last preparatory conference was entific support process for the new commis- held in the Cook Islands a couple of weeks sion. We have very actively engaged the fo- ago. All the negotiations now seem to have rum fisheries countries—that is, most of the been just about completed, and that commis- island nations that are involved in fishing— sion will become the regional fisheries man- to help protect their interests in the fishery. agement organisation charged with the man- That is easy to say; it is not always easy to agement of all the highly migratory fish do when there are some very powerful and stocks in the western and central Pacific. large distant water nations who are always This will include all of the major tuna and trying to get in on the act. We have also billfish species. worked in the background for the chair to This particular fishery is the world’s last progress difficult issues, such as resolving great fishery and one that is incredibly im- the dispute on what was being proposed as a portant to the future health and wellbeing of separate regime for the northern commit- our Pacific island neighbours. The new tee—the northern committee being the Japa- commission provides around 100 million nese and North Americans. By resolving that metric tonnes of fish annually, with a value dispute, we have now cleared the way for of some $US2.2 billion each year. The fish- Japan to engage in the whole fishery. ery also provides between 20,000 and 30,000 We will continue to work actively with the jobs in the Pacific region, and that is about island nations to make sure that those island eight per cent of all employment in the Pa- nations are in the best possible position to cific Islands. The commission has been in the advise and lead the commission into this new process of formation since the year 2000, regime of fisheries management. We have and there have been five preparatory confer- provided some $200,000 to the organisa- ences that have been building the rules for tional fund to help the interim secretariat and the commission to operate under. Ten ratifi- chair organise the meetings, to undertake cations have now been received, and Niue intercessional work and to move the Prepcon and Tonga have advised that their ratification process forward. This process has helped the processes are ready to be sent. With New Pacific island countries, as it has brought a Zealand in the final stages, we will have the new sense of unity and regional stability to 13 ratifications necessary to bring the West- fisheries issues. With the European Union ern and Central Pacific Fisheries Commis- now at the table, the Pacific island countries sion into being. There will be one further have an opportunity to sell their access and preparatory conference to tie up the loose harvesting rights to another country— ends, and that will coincide with the first another high-seas distant water country—to commission meeting, which we hope will be get the best possible access deals. The Pa- held around the middle of next year. cific island countries realise the importance Australia has played a very strong role of fish, and the new commission will provide throughout the preparatory conference proc- them with a forum where they have an equal esses, initially by holding the text of the con- voice at the table and where they can de- vention together to make sure that countries mand proper management of these important did not water down the best convention texts resources. The importance of the meeting in modern fisheries. We have chaired the last week was that it worked to progress al-

CHAMBER 16500 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 most all outstanding issues. It also laid the The meeting held just last week deter- framework for the success at the Commis- mined that the global management regime sion for the Conservation of Southern Blue- for the southern bluefin tuna would be fin Tuna meeting, which followed a week strengthened by the commission agreeing to later in Auckland, as both meetings impor- a total allowable catch for the species and tantly saw Australia and Japan working to- particular national allocations for the first gether to resolve a number of outstanding time since 1997. The scientific committee issues. has reconfirmed its advice that the 2000 I have to emphasise that the importance of catch level of 15,500 tonnes of southern fish to these Pacific island countries cannot bluefin tuna is around the current sustainable be understated. They provide income from yield. Members agreed to a total allowable access arrangements, they provide food and catch of some 14,030 tonnes, of which Aus- health, and they provide employment and the tralia is allocated 5,625 tonnes. A new stock opportunity for business development. With- assessment is currently being undertaken to out fish, the high-seas nations would not be determine if any changes in this catch level interested in fishing this area. As such, they are warranted. A management procedure is would not be interested in investing their being developed, and that will underpin the income for infrastructure development, and future total allowable catch settings. That those developments would largely dry up in work is progressing well and is on schedule those islands that do not have tourism. This for completion next year. happens all too often. It would then be up to I am delighted to report that the Philip- the United States, Australia and New Zea- pines and South Africa are seeking to join land to make up any shortfall in the standard the Commission for the Conservation of of living or income that these nations might Southern Bluefin Tuna and have been offered expect. the status of cooperating non-members. The I mentioned that the Commission for the commission at its meeting last week actually Conservation of Southern Bluefin Tuna set aside 900 tonnes of catch for these coun- meeting was held in Auckland just last week. tries, with 800 tonnes being allocated to In- That commission has had a very turbulent donesia—which has also joined the commis- history that concluded some years ago with sion as a cooperating non-member at Austra- Australia and New Zealand taking Japan to lia’s suggestion and with our cooperation and the International Tribunal for the Law of the support. Indonesia will get a TAC of 800 Sea. Both countries also cancelled the port tonnes, and 100 tonnes is being held by the access for the Japanese long-line fleet. For- commission for catches by the Philippines tunately, Australia resolved those disputes and South Africa. Indonesia’s involvement is with Japan some time ago, and the Australian very important because it is in Indonesian government agreed to lift the bans in place waters that the hatchery of the southern blue- on Japanese fishing boats visiting Australian fin tuna is located. At that meeting also there ports. This unfortunate history is now well was a resolution on illegal, unreported and and truly in the past, with the commission— unregulated fishing. That was agreed to by the CCSBT—developing into a real coopera- all parties and will include the operational tive regional fisheries management organisa- aspect of countries developing a list of fish- tion. ing vessels that are authorised to fish for the southern bluefin tuna.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16501

In again congratulating the Australian of- The PRESIDENT—Order! When sena- ficials involved in the two very significant tors have stopped having discussions across commissions, can I highlight the work done the chamber, we will proceed with question by my department—and particularly by Mr time. Glen Hurry, who led the delegations—with Senator COONAN—The old school tie is support from the Australian Fisheries a bit like the old chestnut that the Labor Management Authority, and by members of Party keeps dredging up in its new found the industry who have played a very interest in transparency and the conduct of significant role. The work being done has corporations, having fitfully slept through all again added to Australia’s reputation in the the CLERP reforms up until about CLERP 6. central and western Pacific and, indeed, in Senator Wong is incorrect when she suggests our region. It is a great credit to those that the government’s response to CLERP 9 involved that the work that they have done is part of any ‘old school tie’ network. In will help build relationships for Australia and fact, what CLERP 9 is all about is increased will show that we really do have the interests transparency and a proper response to the of the Asia-Pacific region at heart and, more need to look at some corporate excesses and importantly, that we are prepared to actually to make reforms that will strike a proper bal- do something about that. ance between allowing a business to operate Sitting suspended from 1.56 p.m. to and reining in some of the excesses. That is 2.00 p.m. really what CLERP 9 is all about. The dis- QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE closure framework for CLERP 9 is substantially improved. Corporate Law Economic Reform Program Senator Conroy interjecting— Senator WONG (2.00 p.m.)—My ques- Senator Ferguson interjecting— tion is to Senator Coonan, the Minister for The PRESIDENT—Senator Conroy and Revenue and Assistant Treasurer. Can the Senator Ferguson, order! I remind you that it minister confirm that the government’s draft is question time, not shouting time. CLERP 9 bill continues to protect the ‘old Senator COONAN—CLERP 9 substan- school tie’ network given that, first, directors tially improves the disclosure framework. when standing for election will still not have The bill builds on the current Corporations to disclose their relationships with the com- Act disclosure requirements in three ways in pany or with other directors of the company; respect of executives and in respect of execu- second, non-executive directors will still be tive remuneration, if I can start with that, by entitled to retirement benefits, options and extending the disclosure requirements to the bonus payments; and, finally, directors will top five senior management people within still be able to chair multiple companies? corporate groups and by allowing sharehold- Minister, why is the government continuing ers to vote upon a resolution at a company to protect the ‘old school tie’ network instead general meeting to adopt the remuneration of acting in shareholders’ interests and re- disclosures made in the annual report. Direc- quiring directors to disclose their relation- tors will also have to give shareholders an ships with the board and with other direc- opportunity to comment upon and ask ques- tors? tions about the disclosures at the general Honourable senators interjecting— meeting.

CHAMBER 16502 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

The UK enacted a similar proposal in Au- Senator COONAN—There is no doubt gust 2002, allowing shareholders to make a that what the Labor Party are all about with non-binding resolution on remuneration. Of CLERP 9 is regulatory overkill. There is also course, that had a very significant effect in no doubt about what commentators have the UK with the GlaxoSmithKline case, said. Here is an interesting quote from which rejected a proposal for the remunera- Stephen Bartholomeusz: tion of the chief executive officer, who was It is unclear just what Labor, the Australian also a board member, to include a £22 mil- Shareholders Association and others hope to lion, or $55 million, golden parachute in the achieve with their push for prescriptive black- event of his early dismissal. All of these mat- letter law to, in the words of Labor’s Stephen ters in relation to both remuneration and dis- Conroy, “crack down on corporate greed”. closure of relationships build substantially on Black-letter law will not solve this problem the exposure draft and substantially on what and the government has got the balance the ALP’s position was on disclosures. right. It is very interesting that CLERP 9 goes Roads: Scoresby Freeway further than the ALP proposal by expanding Senator TCHEN (2.07 p.m.)—My ques- section 300A under the Corporations Act and tion is to the Minister for Local Government, the requirement for corporate groups. Under Territories and Roads, Senator Ian Campbell. CLERP 9, listed companies must disclose up I am delighted to have the opportunity to ask to 10 of the most highly remunerated senior this outstanding minister this question, which managers within the entire corporate group. is so vital to the interests of Victoria. Will the The proposal that Senator Conroy has been minister please update the Senate on the Aus- hawking around town appears to apply only tralian government’s commitment to the con- to senior managers employed within the struction of the Scoresby Freeway? listed company. The other proposals that the Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I thank Labor Party have put forward on disclosure Senator Tchen for his excellent question. As do little to advance the real case for transpar- a Victorian senator, he has taken a very close ency. It is interesting that most of the reports interest in transport issues in his home state, in relation to CLERP 9 seem to be over- that great state of Victoria, and the debacle whelmingly supportive of the balance that that is unwinding about the Scoresby Free- the government has struck in relation to dis- way. Those who read the papers this morning closure. will be aware that the Premier of Victoria, Senator WONG—Mr President, I ask a Steve Bracks, over recent days has sent supplementary question. I note the minister something like, by his own admission, failed to answer why the government does 200,000 letters to people living in the south- not think directors standing for election eastern corridor, the eastern suburbs of Mel- ought to have to disclose their relationship bourne. Quite clearly, he has heeded the with a company or other directors of the words of a senior federal Labor politician company. When will the minister recognise that he is in serious trouble on this issue in that the Howard government’s self- Victoria and has spent $100,000 sending out regulatory approach gives a green light to these letters. corporate greed and that legislation is re- The trouble for the people who have required to protect shareholders’ interests? ceived these letters is that Mr Bracks has deceived the people and misled them in a

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16503 number of serious ways. Most honourable has set out to mislead them by saying that we senators, and particularly Victorian senators, have not said how we will fund it. We have will recall that the Commonwealth commit- put it into the budget and we have put it into ted—and I must get this absolutely accurate; the forward estimates. The money is sitting otherwise Senator McLucas will respond there waiting to be spent on behalf of the tomorrow—$445 million to ensure that the Commonwealth. The question that remains Scoresby Freeway would be built by 2008 is: what is federal Labor’s policy on this is- and that it would be built in a way that would sue? They have been incredibly silent on the allow the people to travel along that freeway Scoresby Freeway issue. In the period after free of charge, not tolled. question time when senators are allowed to Senator Faulkner—That’s why it’s called take note, I ask the senior Victorian senator, a freeway, I suppose. Senator Stephen Conroy, to get up and to commit a Labor government to the building Senator IAN CAMPBELL—In fact that of this freeway and to put pressure on his is why it is called a freeway, Senator Faulk- good friend Stephen Bracks to actually ner, but Mr Bracks wants to change it to a commit to the building of this freeway on tollway. Mr Bracks has written to 200,000 time and on budget in cooperation with the people and told them that he wants to put a federal government. (Time expired) toll on it. He has also said that that is the only way you could build this road by the Corporate Law Economic Reform year 2020—12 years later than the Com- Program monwealth committed to and 12 years later Senator CONROY (2.11 p.m.)—My than what Mr Bracks and his government question is to Senator Coonan, the Minister committed to only 11 months ago. The for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer. Is the Commonwealth have committed the minister aware that the government’s draft money—in fact, we have already spent $25 CLERP 9 bill fails to prohibit company loans million of it—and the money remains not to directors? Minister, why should share- only on the table but also in the budget. In holders’ funds be used to give directors about paragraph 6 of his letter, Mr Bracks loans? Why can’t they go to the bank like says: everybody else? The Liberal Party has not explained how or even Senator COONAN—Senator Conroy be- if they will fund the Scoresby Freeway. trays the fact that he has obviously no busi- The federal government have not only ex- ness experience at all. He has absolutely no plained that we will fund it but also signed idea about how a corporation runs, abso- an MOU that his government signed. That lutely no idea about how a company needs to MOU, signed by Mr Bracks’s government capitalise and absolutely no idea about the and signed by this government, states: relationship of directors with companies Victoria undertakes to ensure that users of the where loans may be required. What is impor- Scoresby Freeway will not be required to pay a tant under the circumstances is that there is direct toll. proper disclosure and proper transparency in Mr Bracks’s government has signed that the way in which corporations are run. There MOU and this government has signed it and is no doubt that CLERP 9 has struck the right is committed to it. But, quite contrary to balance between a knee-jerk and black-letter what he said in his letter to the voters in the approach to law, a prescriptive approach to eastern suburbs of Melbourne, Mr Bracks law that is just going to simply tie up com-

CHAMBER 16504 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 panies and tie business up so that it is unable in an appropriate way all the matters that to do anything—tie them up in regulations— were raised in the exposure draft and all the Senator Conroy interjecting— matters that have been consulted on extensively, and then got the balance right. The PRESIDENT—Senator Conroy, you asked a question; listen to the answer. Senator CONROY—Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I ask, again: why Senator COONAN—and allowing a does the Howard government allow preferen- company, within the proper guidelines, to tial treatment of directors of listed companies run its affairs in an appropriate way, with by allowing them to use shareholders’ money proper reference to shareholders and proper for a loan? Why is there one rule for the top regard for regulation and good corporate end of town and another for the rest of us? governance. There is not much point in La- Why don’t you join Labor in helping drag bor’s approach that they seem to be urging the corporate snouts out of the trough? on us this afternoon in the Senate. Labor’s prescriptive approach to regulation is not Senator COONAN—I must say that I going to actually achieve what Labor con- endorse the statement that was made by tends—and that, of course, has been the re- Steve Bartholomeusz when he said that it is sponse from business. very difficult to see what Senator Conroy is on about when he is talking about cracking I would have thought that under the cir- down on corporate greed. He was referring cumstances Labor would have seen that big to Labor’s prescriptive approach running business—so belittled and so decried by La- counter to corporate best practice. Here we bor, who continue to bash big business in are with respected commentators talking this place—thought that the CLERP 9 posi- about the Labor Party’s regulatory overkill tion went too far. But, on balance, the re- and how it is simply going to tie companies sponse to CLERP 9 has been overwhelm- up in red tape, instead of really addressing ingly positive, because the government has the problem, which is to ensure transparency got that balance right. It understands the fact in corporate governance. This government is that there needs to be transparency but it also interested in ensuring a regulatory approach understands that corporations have to operate that will deliver substance over form and will in an appropriate and responsible way not deliver a principle based response over pre- only in the community but also by allowing scription. their shareholders to accrue wealth and so that shareholders do have some say in remu- Australian Quarantine and Inspection neration for directors and in how directors Service behave and manage the company. Senator HEFFERNAN (2.16 p.m.)—My The great achievement of CLERP 9, apart question is to the Minister representing the from all of the great advances on disclosure, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and For- is what it has done in relation to auditors and estry, Senator Ian Macdonald. Will the min- in relation to ensuring better arms-length ister inform the Senate of the role that quar- arrangements between auditors, which actu- antine plays in protecting and securing Aus- ally give a much better opportunity for tralia’s primary industries and natural envi- shareholders to be confident that a corpora- ronment? Is the minister aware of any alter- tion is run in accordance with their expecta- native policies? tions. I utterly reject the suggestion from the Senator IAN MACDONALD—Senator Labor Party that CLERP 9 has not addressed Heffernan raises a question that I know is

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16505 very much of interest to all Australians, and I smuggling. In contrast to when Labor were know that Senator Heffernan, coming from in office, 100 per cent of all international rural New South Wales, has a very real inter- mail entering Australia is now scanned. Un- est in it himself and on behalf of the people der Labor, five per cent of cargo containers he serves. Senator Heffernan would be well were inspected; under the coalition, it is 100 aware that Australia has one of the most per cent. Under Labor, 70 per cent of vessels stringent, if not the most stringent, quaran- arriving from overseas were inspected; now tine systems in the world. In 2001 the coali- it is 100 per cent. tion government committed some $596 mil- It is important to note the rundown that lion to further strengthen Australia’s border Labor oversaw in quarantine services. Under protection over four years with the increased Labor, AQIS had its funding slashed—down quarantine intervention program. The gov- almost seven per cent in 1994-95. In 1995- ernment continues to take Australia’s quaran- 96, in its last year of government, Labor tine system very seriously, and we will not spent $177 million on quarantine. Now $277 compromise its integrity. million is spent. Under Labor, AQIS had 400 Since 2001 quarantine border intervention full-time staff in border protection; now there rates have increased to more than 90 per cent are some 2,000 staff. It is a disgrace that op- at international airports and to 100 per cent position spokesmen get up in this chamber at other border entry points. Thanks to addi- and attack the integrity of the quarantine ser- tional funding by the Howard government, vices. (Time expired) AQIS now has 64 X-ray machines: 43 em- Immigration: Visas ployed at Australia’s international airports, Senator CROSSIN (2.21 p.m.)—My 11 at international mail centres, four at air question is to Senator Vanstone, the Minister cargo depots and six mobile X-ray units for for Immigration and Multicultural and Indig- use at seaports and to support the fixed units enous Affairs. In the House of Representa- as necessary. There are 75 detector dog tives, the Prime Minister was asked by the teams: 46 passive dog teams at airports and Leader of the Opposition about two children 29 active dog teams at international mail and aged four and eight who were photographed air courier depots. AQIS officers and detec- with him during his recent trip to Bali. Is the tor dog teams seize an average of 33,000 minister aware that the mother of these chil- quarantine items a month at international dren was killed in the Bali bombings and that airports and, of these, 27 per cent are unde- their father is currently detained in Austra- clared. lia’s Baxter detention centre? The Prime AQIS screened more than 8.1 million air Minister told Mr Crean that he would seek passengers over the past 12 months, close to the minister’s advice on whether these chil- 92 per cent of all arrivals. I am delighted to dren could come to Australia and visit their point out to the Senate that AQIS has re- father at the Baxter detention centre. Can the cruited more than 1,200 additional part- and minister tell the Senate when she will let full-time staff since the 2001 quarantine up- these children visit their father? grade was announced. Increased fines for Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator perpetrators have included on-the-spot fines Crossin for the question. Yes, I am aware of and prosecutions through the courts that can the very sad circumstances of a man cur- now result in fines of up to $66,000 and 10 rently in Baxter whose wife died as a result years in jail, and a penalty of up to $1.1 mil- of the bombings in Bali. I have asked my lion has been introduced for commercial

CHAMBER 16506 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 department to pursue with vigour the man’s details of what she has told the Victorian reunion with his children in Iran. However, government but I will follow it up and see if this will be dependent on his cooperation. It I can get some further information for Sena- is true that the children of the man have been tor Allison’s benefit. denied visas to enter Australia in the past. I Senator ALLISON—Mr President, I ask am aware that there have been three applica- a supplementary question. I thank the minis- tions for visitor visas by the man’s children ter for offering to follow that up and I won- that have been refused. My advice is that the der if he would also answer this question. decision to refuse was made in accordance Has the fact that the lessee’s use of the land with the law because the decision maker was could be prohibited or restricted by Victorian not satisfied that the children intended a planning and environment laws been dis- genuine visit and that they would leave Aus- closed to the persons who have submitted tralia on the expiry of their visitor visas. I am tenders to the government? If not, why not? aware that applications for review have now Senator HILL—The potential lessees been lodged. Consequently, it is not appro- have presumably made bids taking into ac- priate for me to discuss that any further. count their own legal advice in relation to Senator CROSSIN—Mr President, I ask planning restraints or state taxation conse- a supplementary question. Given that the quences. From our point of view there would children have been rejected before, can’t the be no secret. We would be happy to discuss minister now make a humane and compas- with them any advice that we might have on sionate decision and provide them with visas those matters, but those who make bids for to visit their father? property primarily take their own advice. Senator VANSTONE—Senator Crossin, Business: Executive Remuneration I refer you to the answer I have just given Senator CONROY (2.26 p.m.)—My you. question is to Senator Coonan, the Minister Defence: Property for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer. Does Senator ALLISON (2.23 p.m.)—My the minister agree with these comments, re- question is to the Minister for Defence. ported on Friday, by the new Parliamentary Could the minister confirm that the Depart- Secretary to the Treasurer, Mr Cameron: ment of Defence has received legal advice “I don’t want to create an environment in that shows that, if Commonwealth land at which shareholders think their principal task is to Point Nepean is leased, the use and devel- pick over the bones of every executive’s emolu- opment of that land will be subject to Victo- ments. There is an unseemly and demeaning as- rian planning and environment laws? Has the pect of human nature, which is this tendency to minister passed this advice on to the Victo- obsess about what somebody else has that I don’t rian state government? have.” Senator HILL—I do not recall that ad- Senator Abetz—That’s you, Stephen! If the hat fits, wear it. vice. As Senator Allison knows, the matter is being handled by my parliamentary secre- Senator CONROY—Does the minister tary, Mrs Bailey. My responsibility will be accept and endorse these comments made by limited to the ultimate decision making role. the government’s new CLERP 9 spokesman? In relation to dealings with the Victorian Senator COONAN—What I support is government, Mrs Bailey has been carrying this government’s approach to CLERP 9, out that task. I am obviously not aware of the which very clearly distinguishes between the

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16507 proper conduct of a company and the proper commentators, who have said that Labor’s disclosure in a company’s records and opera- prescriptive approach to the whole CLERP 9 tions of remuneration for directors and non- problem will not lead to good corporate gov- executive directors. ernance but will lead to quite the opposite. If Senator Faulkner—But what about Mr you have a prescriptive approach and try to Cameron’s comments? tie up the whole issue of executive remuneration in such a way that you cannot attract Senator COONAN—What Mr Cameron anybody skilled to lead a company, goodness said, as I understand it, is that he did not op- me—you might end up with somebody from pose directors who create shareholders the Labor Party leaving the Senate and trying wealth and run a company well getting prop- to become a director of a public company. erly remunerated. I think that is an unassail- What corporations need is good governance. able proposition. Why would anybody object They certainly need directors who are going to directors properly carrying out their duties to run the company in a way that creates and running a company well being properly shareholders wealth, and that is precisely the remunerated for doing exactly what they are point of Mr Cameron’s comment. there to do—that is, to create wealth for shareholders? What the government has done Senator CONROY—I rise on a supple- is to acknowledge that there have been cor- mentary question and I want to acknowledge porate excesses in the past—that when a Senator Abetz’s interjection—if the cap fits. company is heading south and directors’ re- Is the minister aware that, in relation to the muneration is heading north it is an inappro- $30 million payment to the former CEO of priate balance. What Mr Cameron was say- BHP Billiton, Mr Brian Gilbertson, the ing was that, if directors are creating wealth Prime Minister said in May this year: and their remuneration is properly set, that is I don’t think companies should be that generous, an appropriate way for a corporation to be and I think shareholders should get onto directors run by directors. Underpinning all of that is who are that generous. the fact that the CLERP 9 proposals provide Minister, do you believe that the Prime Min- a measured and balanced response that was ister is picking over the bones of executive necessary to address the issue of— salaries and that his comments are unseemly Senator Conroy—Mr President, I rise on and demeaning, or has Mr Cameron simply a point of order going to relevance. The got it wrong on his first day in the job? question I asked was: did the minister en- Senator COONAN—I think Senator dorse Mr Cameron’s views? It was a simple Conroy has got it dead wrong. What I have question. I ask you to draw her to the ques- just said in my previous answer is that, for tion. the purposes of CLERP 9—if you actually The PRESIDENT—As you know, and as look at the provisions—it is important to I have said repeatedly here, I cannot instruct understand that the whole issue of executive the minister how to answer a question. The remuneration has in fact been addressed. I minister has over two minutes to go yet, and think that in my first answer today I outlined I am sure that she will do the best she can. in some detail three additional ways in which executive remuneration is now subject to Senator COONAN—What I do not en- disclosure and subject to some shareholder dorse is the Labor Party’s approach—the overview, with an ability to have a resolution prescriptive response to CLERP 9 that has and a say on the way in which executives are been panned pretty much universally by the

CHAMBER 16508 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 paid. That is precisely what the Prime Minis- manufacture wind blades on hold. When will ter had in mind. It is certainly not inconsis- the government be making this decision pub- tent with Ross Cameron, who has quite cor- lic, as it is a matter of urgency? rectly said that, if people run companies Senator HILL—It is true that the Prime well, they are entitled to be properly remu- Minister takes an interest in all important nerated. areas of policy. He has an interest in all port- Environment: Alternative Energy folios. In relation to the supplementary ques- Senator LEES (2.31 p.m.)—My question tion, I will refer that to the environment minis to Senator Hill, the Minister representing ister and get his response. the Prime Minister. I understand that the Trade: Live Animal Exports government has received the Mandatory Re- Senator MARSHALL (2.33 p.m.)—My newable Energy Target, or MRET, review question is to Senator Hill, the Minister rep- report. I ask the minister: when will this re- resenting the Minister for Trade. Can the port be publicly released and when will the minister advise the Senate of what the gov- government’s response to the report be avail- ernment has communicated to Australia’s able publicly? In other words, when will we beef and lamb export markets, including Ja- know if the government has decided to in- pan, the European Union and the United crease the target for the volume of electricity States, with regard to the MV Cormo Ex- generated from renewable sources and by press debacle? In the interests of the 57,000 how much? Australians employed in the processed meat Senator HILL—That is not really a mat- and live export industries, what advice has ter within the portfolio responsibilities of the the minister provided to export markets on Prime Minister. I think that the best thing I the quarantine risks associated with the re- can do is refer the question to the minister turn of the sheep? If the minister has not responsible for the review and ask if and provided such advice to our trading partners, when it is to be made public. why not? Senator LEES—I ask a supplementary Senator HILL—It is an odd question be- question. The reason for asking the question cause Australia, and this government in par- of Senator Hill, the Minister representing the ticular, treasures its quarantine regime, which Prime Minister, is that I understand that this is a national asset. We would not take any final decision is very much likely to occur in action that would prejudice that national as- the Prime Minister’s office and, indeed, that set. Therefore, the return of the sheep will be is where the report is. If this is not the case, I consistent with Australian quarantine needs. am more than happy to redirect the question Our export partners have every reason to be to an appropriate minister. But, as Senator confident in that because to do otherwise Hill is also the minister representing the en- would simply be foolish. I am not aware of vironment minister, I ask him a follow-up whether there has been specific communica- question—and perhaps he may want to refer tion with them on that issue; I will have to this on as well. Minister, are you aware that refer that to Mr Truss. But they can be confi- there is an enormous amount of investment dent that we will maintain that quarantine on hold across Australia, particularly in regime in the interests of all Australians. Whyalla in South Australia, where there is a Senator MARSHALL—Mr President, I solar oasis plant on hold, and in Tasmania, ask a supplementary question. I thank the where there is a potential plant that would minister for that answer, and I would appre-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16509 ciate information as to whether that advice from the last NAB monthly business survey has been communicated. Could you also es- dated 14 October this year is that Australia’s tablish whether or not our trading partners domestic economy ‘is still one of unrelenting have been given details of the secret import strength’. Household wealth has increased by risk analysis? $1.6 trillion or around 90 per cent since the Senator HILL—I regret that the Labor coalition came to power. As everyone knows, Party seem to be so determined to undermine a large element of this growth has flowed our quarantine regime—they are so deter- from the housing sector. mined to undermine an important national One of the biggest impacts on the demand asset. I guess it simply comes with an oppo- for housing has been the record low interest sition who have been in opposition for a long rates that Australians have enjoyed under this time and know little more than how to carp government. We now have standard variable and whinge. This is a difficult issue, being mortgage rates at 6.5 per cent, down from handled responsibly by the minister, who 10.5 per cent under Labor, when this gov- has—as all this government has—a vested ernment came to office. The Commonwealth interest in protecting our quarantine regime. put in place the First Home Owners Scheme We will resolve the issue, difficult though it with a $7,000 grant, which has assisted over may be, and we will protect Australian quar- 500,000 families with the purchase of their antine laws. first home. As of August 2003, the average Economy: Performance monthly repayment on a housing loan throughout Australia was $450 lower than it Senator WATSON (2.36 p.m.)—My was in the dying days of the previous Labor question is directed to Senator Coonan, the government. Minister for Revenue and the Assistant Treasurer. Will the minister kindly advise the APRA, the Australian Prudential Regula- Senate the reasons behind the very strong tion Authority, recently undertook some performance of the Australian economy and stress testing of the scenario of a possible how that strong performance is going to housing correction—although we, of course, translate in terms of benefiting Australian do not want to have that experience. It found families? Is the minister aware of any possi- that banks, building societies and credit un- ble impediments to that strong recovery? ions as a group enjoy strong capital positions today and could withstand such a correction. Senator COONAN—I thank Senator Of course, there remain concerns about the Watson for that thoughtful question. The escalation in the value of real property and government have a very strong record of this reflects a number of factors. All of them achievement in responsible economic man- are, as we speak, under consideration by the agement. That is an unassailable truth. Our Productivity Commission, including, I might policies have delivered extraordinary growth say, the impact on the cost of housing of the and wealth creation in this country. The re- stamp duty imposed by the Labor states, cent labour force figures alone showed that which now generates an extraordinary $8.4 unemployment remained at 5.8 per cent, billion in state government revenues, and, of which is a 13-year low. The last time that course, the impact of the land release poli- Australia had a combination of a low unem- cies of local governments and state govern- ployment rate—that is, below six per cent— ments. and an inflation rate below three per cent was in December 1968. The key message

CHAMBER 16510 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

I am asked about impediments to deliver- course, we have the continued problem that, ing a strong economy. I think the actions of even though the Labor Party recognise that the Labor Party are a very good starting they should support the disability support point when you look at impediments to the benefits, for instance, that have been held up economy. Labor are still playing politics in the Senate and even though they under- against the national interest. They have con- stand the necessity for such reforms, unfor- stantly sought to block and undermine the tunately, the member for Werriwa, the great coalition’s efforts. Just to mention a few, the macho man, has gone all wimpy and quiet on Labor Party have opposed measures to bal- the necessity for these reforms. The only way ance the budget: not this year’s budget but that there will be better opportunities for all last year’s budget. They have opposed labour Australians is if the opponents of economic market reform. They have voted against un- reform in this country, those sitting opposite, fair dismissal legislation 16 times. They have vote for these reforms. voted against reform of the tax system. They Agriculture: Foot-and-Mouth Disease continue to oppose welfare reform and Senator O’BRIEN (2.42 p.m.)—My changes to the PBS. question is to Senator Ian Macdonald, repre- It seems that the member for Werriwa’s senting the Minister for Agriculture, Fisher- recent resolve to do something about the dis- ies and Forestry. Can the minister confirm ability support benefits has now gone the that his own department recognises the im- way of GST and roll-back—or even, should I portation of infected animals, semen or food say, ‘the third way’. You certainly do not as the most likely path for the entry of foot- hear much about ‘the third way’ these days. and-mouth disease to Australia? Can the By contrast, the Howard government has minister confirm that Australia currently given Australia opportunities, and the thing prohibits the entry of live animals, semen, that stands between further opportunities and uncooked meat or unprocessed dairy prod- greater prosperity in this country—better ucts from foot-and-mouth disease affected opportunities for all Australians—is the La- countries, including Kuwait and the United bor Party. Arab Emirates? If so, will the minister main- Senator WATSON—Mr President, I ask a tain Australia’s protection against foot-and- supplementary question. I noticed the Assis- mouth disease by prohibiting the return of tant Treasurer raised the question of the in- the 52,000 sheep aboard the MV Cormo Ex- crease in stamp duty. Has she been advised press? of any action that has been taken by the rele- Senator IAN MACDONALD—I am vant state governments to pass on some of again distressed that Senator O’Brien uses the benefits of that increased stamp duty to question time today, as he did a quite dis- families? graceful contribution to the adjournment de- Senator COONAN—Thank you for the bate last night, to try to undermine Austra- supplementary question, Senator Watson. lia’s quarantine protections. It is one thing to Sadly, there does not appear to be much in play politics, and we are all guilty of that at the way of a response from state Labor gov- times, but, when the national interests are at ernments regarding passing on to struggling stake in a very difficult issue, I would have families some of the revenues that have been expected a bit more responsibility and matur- ripped out of Australian families by the ity even from the Labor Party. stamp duty of state Labor governments. Of

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16511

Mr Truss and the government have made situation. We have done that for many years it quite clear that quarantine and border pro- and we will continue to do that. The Austra- tection are of absolute, paramount impor- lian public can be assured that, if as an ulti- tance to Australia. We will do everything that mate last resort they are returned to Austra- is conceivably and reasonably possible to lia, they will be returned in a quarantine maintain the magnificent reputation that Aus- situation which will be exceptional in the tralia has built up over many years. Why is way of quarantine assessments and manage- the Labor Party undermining the best efforts ment of risks. We are determined to make of the government, the industry and anyone sure that there is no risk to Australia and, else involved in getting a particular resolu- indeed, that there is no risk to any country tion to this very difficult and complex posi- that may end up taking these sheep. tion? It is a position that is not of the gov- Senator O’BRIEN—Mr President, I ask ernment’s making but one in which the gov- a supplementary question. I again ask the ernment has responsibly intervened to try to minister if he can confirm that Australia cur- solve. rently prohibits the entry of live animals, We have mentioned quite openly that our semen, uncooked meat or unprocessed dairy No. 1 priority and goal is to offload the sheep products from foot-and-mouth disease af- at another port. It is not a question anymore fected countries, including Kuwait and the of selling the sheep; we have indicated that United Arab Emirates. Further, I ask the min- we would give the sheep away. We have ister, given that every major rural industry even indicated that we would be prepared to organisation, the Australian Veterinary Asso- provide financial assistance to a developing ciation and at least 21—probably more by or Third World country that might want to now—of the minister’s party room col- take the sheep and we have also indicated leagues are absolutely opposed to returning that our preference, if we were able to find a the sheep to Australia, why is the govern- country to take them, would be to put people ment confident that this operation can be on the ground in that country to deal with undertaken safely? Why are they wrong and those sheep after being offloaded. That sort the government right? of work continues. This work is made much Senator IAN MACDONALD— more difficult by people who would suggest Returning the sheep to Australia is, I repeat, that there is something wrong with these an absolute last resort. The organisations sheep. We have had assessments from veteri- Senator O’Brien talks about have a prefer- narians of our own and of independent, in- ence, as I understand media reports, for ternational organisations which clearly indi- slaughter at sea. That is a suggestion that the cate that these sheep are healthy—and if they government has looked at, but it is impracti- are healthy, why wouldn’t we return them to cal. It also appears on legal advice that it Australia? But when we go around the world would contravene the London convention on to try and give these sheep away, other coun- dumping at sea. Is Senator O’Brien suggest- tries will look at the sort of clamour being ing that we should just thumb our noses at raised by the opposition and say, ‘These this international convention? Governments can’t be healthy sheep.’ They are the sorts of have the responsibility to look at all issues, difficulties we have because of this type of and that is what we have done. We are trying question. to work through this with the industry in a The Australian government will go to ex- responsible and mature way. All of the good traordinary lengths to protect our quarantine work that the Australian government is doing

CHAMBER 16512 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 is certainly not helped—in fact, it is actively on the ground into the projects themselves, hindered—by the sorts of attitudes that the but Dr Kemp can provide further information opposition has adopted on this complex is- in that regard. I suspect that the second ques- sue. tion, relating to exactly how much money Environment: Natural Heritage Trust has been spent on water quality projects, might not be easy to answer, but I will refer Senator BARTLETT (2.48 p.m.)—My it to him and see if he is able to give some question is directed to the Minister represent- information. ing the Minister for the Environment and Heritage. Minister, is it the case that Natural Immigration: Illegal Immigrants Heritage Trust funds that have been ap- Senator KIRK (2.50 p.m.)—My question proved for this financial year are being used is to Senator Vanstone, the Minister for Im- for administrative purposes by the Depart- migration and Multicultural and Indigenous ment of the Environment and Heritage, in- Affairs. I refer the minister to the Joint cluding for the remuneration of members of Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, De- the Threatened Species Advisory Commit- fence and Trade’s Human Rights Subcom- tee? Is it an appropriate use of NHT funds to mittee statement on detention of illegal im- pay the internal costs of the department? migrants. Can the minister confirm that only Senator HILL—Senator Bartlett’s ques- 21 women and children have been provided tion obviously seeks intricate detail, which I with alternative accommodation since the will, in turn, refer to the minister, Dr Kemp, previous minister announced these alterna- and get an early reply. tive arrangements back in December last year? Is it correct that, as the cross-party Senator BARTLETT—Mr President, I statement says: ask a supplementary question. The second part of my question was not seeking intricate ... to date, the overwhelming majority of women detail—it was simply asking whether it was and children are still being housed in inappropriate detention facilities. appropriate for funds to be used in that way for administrative purposes. Can the minister Can the minister advise how many children also answer this in relation to NHT2 money: and their parents have been held in high- in the measures for A Better Environment, as security detention since December last year? the minister would be aware, the Howard Senator VANSTONE—I thank the sena- government gave a commitment to spend at tor for her question. I do not have the detail least $350 million of NHT2 money directly of the numbers that were in a particular on measures to improve water quality during situation or are now in a particular situation. this term of parliament. Can the minister in- I will get you the detail that you have sought, form the Senate how much NHT2 money has but I can say this: I have visited Baxter, and been spent directly on measures to improve the housing project there was nearly com- water quality to date and what the definition plete. I was verbally advised this morning of ‘directly’ means in this context? that it has been completed. That means that Senator HILL—As I recall, an element there will be, if I can recall my verbal brief- of the administrative overhead has in the past ing at the time correctly, 45 more women and been met from the Natural Heritage Trust. children that will be able to move into that That does not seem to me to be extraordi- accommodation, which you will understand nary. The important thing was that the em- is not detention in the sense of a detention phasis was to get as much money as possible facility. Try and make them as pleasant as

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16513 you can, they are still detention facilities. I ing to school in Port Augusta. Therefore the recall asking about some barbed and razor school in the Baxter facility is now used as wire along the back of one set of homes. an adult education centre. Senator Kirk, I am sorry if I am distracting Senator KIRK—Mr President, I ask a you; did you want to hear what the— supplementary question. Minister, don’t the Senator Cook—What are you going to latest September figures show that 91 chil- do? Are you going to paint the razor wire dren remain in Australian detention centres pink? and that there are at least as many in Nauru? Senator VANSTONE—No, I am just ask- What is the minister going to do about these ing whether Senator Kirk wanted to get an- children in high-security detention? other part of the question from Senator Mac- Senator VANSTONE—I thank the sena- kay—which I would be happy to take. It was tor for her question. This is a difficult ques- a courtesy that was going to be extended but tion. Nobody likes to see children in deten- your colleagues do not seem to be happy tion—nobody that I know, anyway. But, with that. equally, nobody wants to say to those crimi- The PRESIDENT—Order, Minister! nals who are operating as people smugglers Could you address your remarks through the and people traffickers that if you pick your chair. I know it is easy to be distracted by mark properly—that is, you pick people with interjections from the other side. children or you provide children to them— you will more easily get in and not be put in Senator VANSTONE—It is easy to be a detention centre. There is a fine balance to distracted when someone who asks a ques- be sought here. We are doing what we can to tion is patently not listening to the answer improve the situation. I remind senators op- and therefore does not appear to be at all posite that I have been advised that there interested in what they have asked. The point were more children in detention during the at which I digressed improperly from the times of Labor governments—both in abso- question was in relation to some razor wire lute numbers and the percentage of people that was there. I did hear an interjection from detained. I do not recall—perhaps some peo- someone asking, ‘What are you going to do, ple who have longer memories than I do paint it pink?’ Such is the degree of serious- might recall—whether Labor set up housing ness with which the members of the opposi- projects into which they put women and tion treat these matters. No, I asked about the children, or whether they left them inside. razor wire. It has been put up, and is con- trolled by, the caravan park next door. It was Immigration: People-Trafficking put there before this housing project was Senator HUMPHRIES (2.56 p.m.)—My there—about three kilometres away from question is to the Minister for Family and Baxter in part of Port Augusta. The depart- Community Services and Minister Assisting ment is negotiating with the caravan park to the Prime Minister for the Status of Women. see if they can take that down. As to the de- Will the minister update the Senate on how tail of your question, I will see what informa- the Howard government is providing world- tion I can get from the department. The only leading support programs to victims of peo- other thing I would add is that I was advised ple-trafficking? that all the children at Baxter—except for Senator PATTERSON—I thank Senator one who has cerebral palsy, who has appar- Humphries for the question; it gives me an ently been moved to Adelaide—are now go- opportunity to elaborate on the answer that

CHAMBER 16514 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Senator Ellison gave earlier this week re- manager to provide individualised assistance garding antitrafficking measures. The sup- and this will include being accompanied to port for victims is a vital aspect of the gov- interviews with police and Centrelink and ernment’s new $20 million antitrafficking being provided with safe accommodation, package. Victims of trafficking are in a very income support, medical treatment, access to vulnerable position. Most of the victims do training and legal services, and social sup- not speak English and many of them are un- port. All victims will have access to the able to read or write. They come from very Medicare Benefits Scheme and the Pharma- poor socioeconomic backgrounds and many ceutical Benefits Scheme. I think this pack- have been subjected to violence and abuse. age will be an important factor in assisting Many suffer from ill health and special these people who are mainly women and medical problems such as drug addiction and children. hepatitis. Research shows that providing Because of the complex nature of human support is significant in encouraging victims trafficking and the special needs of victims to assist trafficking investigations and to act and requirements of law enforcement agen- as witnesses against traffickers. cies, the program is expected to take several It is extremely difficult for law enforce- months to be fully operational. A tender for a ment agencies to secure successful prosecu- case manager is being advertised in a few tions against traffickers without the testi- weeks. This is part of a whole package to mony of the victims. A $5.6 million package deal with a practice which is totally unac- has been announced for a victim support pro- ceptable and which should be stamped out. gram to assist victims of trafficking. The new This is one part of assisting those victims. It program, administered by three areas of is part of ensuring that they are able to give government, will provide a comprehensive us information and assistance in stamping suite of measures to victims of trafficking in that out without risking their lives or their Australia—therefore they will be able to re- future. ceive the best possible care and support. The Senator HUMPHRIES—Mr President, I Office of the Status of Women has been re- ask a supplementary question. Can the minis- sponsible for administering the victim sup- ter explain to the Senate whether she be- port program. The Department of Family and lieves that the programs put in place by the Community Services will provide special Howard government are an improvement on benefit and rent assistance. The Department those available previously under the Labor of Health and Ageing will have responsibil- government? ity for the administration of Medicare. Senator PATTERSON—Nothing was Research from overseas shows that the done under Labor. One of the other areas that provision of support for victims significantly was neglected was that of student visas. I increases the willingness with which victims came into the portfolio as parliamentary sec- participate and act as witnesses against their retary to immigration. I have no doubt that traffickers. Some people estimate that that some of those students that were going to the increase in the numbers of people who are shonky colleges that the states refused to willing to cooperate can be as high as 50 per regulate were actually people involved in cent. The new victim support program will these traffickings. There are many ways in ensure that victims who assist in trafficking which this government has assisted and re- investigations are fully supported while they remain in Australia. They will have a case

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16515 duced the likelihood that women and chil- the Attorney-General. The simple answer to dren will be trafficked. the first part of the question on notice asked Senator Hill—Mr President, I ask that to the Attorney-General was no because it further questions be placed on the Notice was not the responsibility of the federal At- Paper. torney-General to start an initiative of this nature, as sexual offences are not dealt with TRADE: LIVE ANIMAL EXPORTS in Commonwealth courts. Commonwealth Return to Order sexual offences are dealt with in the state Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- courts. However I should add that, contrary sland—Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and to the impression given by Senator Murray in Conservation) (3.00 p.m.)—by leave—The this question, the Attorney-General provided Senate ordered that there be laid on the table a more detailed answer to the second part of no later than now the following documents Senator Murray’s question on notice, draw- relating to the voyage of the MV Cormo Ex- ing Senator Murray’s attention to the protec- press: the risk analysis concerning the return tions the Commonwealth has enacted for of the sheep stranded aboard the vessel and children in criminal proceedings for Com- the latest master’s report revealing mortality monwealth sex offences. I have another 1½ aboard the vessel. I am advised by the Minis- pages of fairly close type, which I seek leave ter for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to incorporate as a complete answer to Sena- that the government is still considering the tor Murray’s question. emergency risk evaluation. However, the Leave granted. minister advises that the information will be The answer read as follows— made public and provided to the Senate when the government has finished consider- Senator Murray asked Senator Patterson, during ing it. The minister has provided me with a Question Time, on 13 October 2003: copy of the master’s report dated 13 October, (1) Is the minister aware that the Attorney- which was sought. This report is no longer General last week answered ‘no’ to the following the current one, which the government has question on notice concerning children? That question was: received this morning. I table the master’s report dated 13 October. The minister ad- Given the findings of the Australian Institute of Criminology Issue Paper Number 250 of May vises that he will consider providing today’s 2003, which included the following observations: report after it has been considered by the (a) when asked if they would ever report on sex- government. ual abuse again following the experiences in the QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: criminal justice system, only 44 per cent of chil- ADDITIONAL ANSWERS dren in Queensland, 33 per cent in New South Wales and 64 per cent in Western Australia indi- Attorney-General’s: Child Sexual cated they would; and (b) in a case study of a Offences cross examination in a Queensland committal, the Senator PATTERSON (Victoria— crying child was repeatedly shouted at and asked Minister for Family and Community Ser- more than 30 times to describe the length, width vices and Minister Assisting the Prime Min- and colour of the penis of the accused: ister for the Status of Women) (3.02 p.m.)— (1) Does the Attorney-General intend to coordi- Senator Murray asked me a question during nate through the Council of Australian Govern- question time on 13 October 2003. It was a ments far more sensitive and appropriate methods question regarding a question on notice to of enabling reported child sexual assault to be

CHAMBER 16516 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 effectively pursued in state and Commonwealth Commonwealth sex offences. Relevant Com- courts and jurisdictions. monwealth offences include Australia’s child sex Does the minister representing the portfolio for tourism legislation and sexual servitude and de- children and youth affairs agree that to answer ceptive recruiting legislation. The child sex tour- ‘no’ to such a question is a shocking and appall- ism legislation is considered ground breaking, ing indictment of government insensitivity? and is one of the toughest of its kind, containing penalties of up to 17 years imprisonment for Aus- (2) Does the minister representing children accept tralians involved in sex offences against children that such an attitude by the Attorney-General’s in overseas. This Government introduced strong saying just ‘no’ to that question means that chil- legislation in 1999 which criminalises some of dren will continue to be discouraged from pursu- most serious forms of exploitation of persons. ing child sexual abuse in court and that the only This legislation prohibits slavery, sexual servitude beneficiaries of such an outcome are paedophiles? and deceptive recruiting for sexual services and Will the Minister with responsibility for children provides tougher penalties where a sexual servi- apply cabinet pressure to change the views of the tude or deceptive recruiting offence is committed wrong-headed and hard-hearted in the Attorney- against a child under 18. General’s office? The model provisions contained in the May 1999 Senator Patterson—The Attorney-General has report of the Model Criminal Code Officers’ provided the following answer to the honourable Committee (MCCOC) entitled Sexual Offences senator’s questions: Against the Person included improved offences, (1) The simple answer to the first part of the provisions for the protection of witnesses and Question on Notice asked of the Attorney-General complainants in proceedings for sexual offences was ‘no’ because it is not the responsibility of the and provision for a sexual offences counselling federal Attorney-General to start an initiative of immunity. The report was developed in coopera- this nature. Sexual offences are not dealt with in tion with State and Territory Governments Commonwealth courts. Commonwealth sexual through the Standing Committee of Attorneys- offences are dealt with in State courts. General and involved a considerable resource I should add that, contrary to the impression input from the Attorney-General’s Department. A given by Senator Murray’s question, the Attor- number of jurisdictions have implemented the ney-General provided a more detailed answer to MCCOC recommendations. the second part of Senator Murray’s Question on The Government’s ongoing commitment to fight- Notice, drawing Senator Murray’s attention to the ing child sexual abuse is also demonstrated by a protections the Commonwealth has enacted for number of recent policy developments. On children in criminal proceedings for Common- 11 December 2002, Australia signed the United wealth sex offences. Nations Protocol relating to Trafficking in Per- The Government is committed to protecting chil- sons Especially Women and Children. On 8 Au- dren from exploitation and abuse and has led in- gust 2003, the Standing Committee of Attorneys- ternational efforts to combat sexual offences General agreed to establish a working group to against children. The Government is always look- examine options to better integrate the federal ing for opportunities to improve its response to family courts with state child protection systems. this terrible crime. However, child sexual assault Another important initiative is the Government’s is primarily a matter for State and Territory Gov- leadership role in combating child abuse in in- ernments. It is the responsibility of each State and digenous communities. On 28 August 2003, the Territory Government to ensure that there is ade- Prime Minister announced a commitment of $20 quate protection for child complainants and child million to address the consequences of violence witnesses in proceedings for child sexual assault and child abuse in indigenous communities. under State or Territory criminal laws. On 13 October 2003, the Government announced The Commonwealth has already enacted this pro- a comprehensive whole-of-government strategy tection for children in criminal proceedings for to combat trafficking in persons. The initiatives,

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16517 totalling $20 million, include improved legisla- Environment: Alternative Energy tive, preventive, law enforcement, and victim Senator HILL (South Australia— support measures. Minister for Defence) (3.03 p.m.)—I have These initiatives demonstrate the Government’s been able to get some further information to commitment to investigating, preventing and the answer I gave today to Senator Lees re- prosecuting the insidious crime of trafficking in persons, especially women and children. garding the mandatory energy review scheme. I am advised that the panel has (2) State and Territory Governments are responsi- completed its report and handed that report ble for ensuring adequate protection for child complainants and child witnesses in prosecutions to the Minister for the Environment and for child sexual offences under the State and Ter- Heritage. The minister is currently digesting ritory criminal laws. The Commonwealth has the contents of the report and its recommen- already demonstrated a strong leadership role in dations. The report must be tabled in the par- this area by enacting protections for child com- liament by 18 January 2004, and this will be plainants and child witnesses in proceedings for done. The Howard government is keen to see Commonwealth sex offences to ensure that child continuing growth in the renewable energy witnesses are able to testify as freely and effec- sector, and the Tambling report will help in tively as possible. The relevant provisions in the that objective. Crimes Act 1914 include the following protections: TRADE: LIVE ANIMAL EXPORTS • a court may disallow a question put to a child Return to Order witness in cross-examination in a proceeding Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (3.03 if the question is inappropriate or unneces- p.m.)—When Senator Ian Macdonald rose in sarily aggressive response to the return to order, the normal • a child witness’s evidence in proceedings courtesy would have been to allow the must be given by means of closed-circuit opposition the opportunity to move to take television (some limited exceptions to this note of that response. Mr President, I indeed rule apply) was rising in my place when you called • a child witness may choose an adult to ac- Senator Patterson. I am happy to defer my company the child while the child is giving motion until after the taking note of answers, evidence in a proceeding if that suits the convenience of the • evidence of a child witness’s or child com- government, or I can do it now. But I will be plainant’s sexual reputation or activities is seeking leave to take note of the statement inadmissible unless the court gives leave or on the return to order, in which Senator Ian the evidence is of sexual activities with a defendant in the proceedings Macdonald advised us that Minister Truss has declined at this stage to comply with the • if there is a jury, the judge is not to warn or return to order in relation to the import risk suggest to the jury that that the law regards children as an unreliable class of witness analysis.The PRESIDENT —I think you should As mentioned above, the model provisions condo it now. tained in the May 1999 report of the Model Senator O’BRIEN—I seek leave to move Criminal Code Officers’ Committee (MCCOC) to take note of that response. entitled Sexual Offences Against the Person included improved offences, provisions for the pro- Leave granted. tection of witnesses and complainants in proceed- Senator O’BRIEN—I move: ings for sexual offences and provision for a sex- That the Senate take note of the document. ual offences counselling immunity.

CHAMBER 16518 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Labor does not accept the minister’s explana- Senator O’BRIEN—That is an interest- tion for the government’s failure to comply ing comment, Senator Ferguson. Perhaps you with the return to order, particularly in rela- can rise in this debate and tell us what has tion to the import risk analysis. The explana- happened to the 5,000-odd sheep from this tion is that the government is still consider- voyage that have died. Where were they dis- ing the document, not that the document posed of? I will tell you where they were does not exist, and no other reason is given. disposed of: except for those who remain on There is no reason that that document cannot the vessel now because they could not be be provided to the Senate, particularly as the disposed of in the port of Shuwaikh, they minister admitted to its existence on 30 Sep- have been disposed of at sea. That is the pro- tember, over two weeks ago. If the govern- cedure for other live animal shipments where ment is still considering it—if it is not yet mortalities occur. Indeed, that has been men- convinced that the impact risk assessment tioned in a 60 Minutes report and in a num- that it has had since 30 September is vi- ber of documents which are circulating—and able—then one wonders why the government which I am certain the government, Minister is so adamant that returning the sheep to Macdonald and other senators in the cham- Australia is a viable option. If it is so con- ber are aware of—as a common practice in vinced, why is the government still consider- relation to mortalities on these vessels. ing it? I heard what Senator Ian Macdonald said That really begs the question, because to- in relation to some international law issues, day is the 72nd day of this Cormo Express but I ask the question: what has happened fiasco. Fifty-seven thousand sheep left Fre- with the 5,000 sheep who have already died mantle on 5 August and arrived in Jeddah in on this vessel, and what has happened to Saudi Arabia on 21 August. The ship was their bodies? I can assure the Senate that scheduled to depart the Kuwaiti port of Shu- they are not still on the vessel and they have waikh, bound for Australia, early this morn- not been disposed of in port. We have had no ing, but I understand that there has been a absolutely clear statement from the govern- further delay. So it has been in that port for ment on its intention. Information, however, 13 days, when it initially was expected to be has been dribbling out via media doorstops, in that port for two days. Apparently it will radio talkback, background briefings and leave later today. The Prime Minister has indeed leaks from the coalition party room. A repeatedly ruled out slaughter at sea. growing number of nations have rejected the Senator Ferguson—So he should. sheep. That is a fact. A number of nations, such as the Indonesian government and the Senator O’BRIEN—It appears the sheep Iraqi interim administration, have publicly are headed back to the Australian mainland reaffirmed that rejection. for slaughter following a quarantine inspection at the Cocos (Keeling) Islands. Senator The departure of the sheep from Kuwait Ferguson interjected, ‘So he should.’ I have today is the very reason that the Senate has read what is said in the paper. The govern- demanded the documents in its order. It is ment considers that that option is a public not a very complicated one. Clearly the gov- relations disaster. ernment has the documents; that has been admitted by Senator Ian Macdonald. We Senator Ferguson—It’s not that at all. It’s have a master’s report which is three days against our obligations. old. I wonder why we cannot have the latest one—perhaps because it tells us the up-to-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16519 date mortality situation on this vessel. Never- the Sheep Breeders Association of Western theless, the government has chosen not to Australia, the Western Australian Farmers produce it. Federation, the NSW Farmers Association The government is steadfastly refusing to and the Australian Veterinary Association disclose its assessment of the quarantine risk oppose the return of the sheep on quarantine associated with the return of the sheep to the grounds. This week, Liberal members Mr Australian mainland or to release proposed Tuckey, Mr Haase and Mr Hawker broke quarantine controls. Because the document ranks with Mr Truss and Mr Howard and existed on 30 September, one wonders openly opposed the return of the sheep. I whether what the government ultimately understand that at least 18 other government might release will have been amended to suit backbenchers questioned or criticised at yes- the government’s political needs, rather than terday’s joint party room meeting the deci- the actual document that we have asked for. I sion to potentially allow the return of the make it clear that the opposition will be in- sheep. sisting on ultimately seeing the document Senator Ferguson—You obviously and its variations through whatever process weren’t there. we need to follow to obtain it. The govern- Senator O’BRIEN—Senator Ferguson ment’s refusal to comply with the Senate suggests that it is not true, but there are very order today is entirely consistent with the strong stories circulating about that. I suggest secretive way in which it has dealt with this I am relying on more reliable sources that I fiasco. I understand that that document, as I have heard so far. said, has been available since at least 24 Sep- Senator Ferguson—More reliable than tember and was referred to by Minister Truss those that were present? in a press conference on 30 September. I actually wrote to Minister Truss on 1 October Senator O’BRIEN—They may well be asking for that document. more reliable, for reasons which are well known to those present. Former Victorian Honourable senators will be aware of a Liberal Leader of the Opposition and experi- letter from Dr Bill Gee—former chief veteri- enced vet Dr Denis Napthine has also op- narian, former head of the international ani- posed the plan to return the sheep. For mal health organisation OIE and former weeks, most animal liberation groups, in- President of the Australian Veterinary Asso- cluding Animals Australia and Animal Lib- ciation—which has been published in major eration NSW, have advocated slaughter at newspapers over recent weeks warning of sea. dire quarantine concerns and consequences if the sheep return to Australia. He referred to An important matter related to quarantine exposure of Australian livestock and native is the impact of the return of the sheep on fauna to exotic diseases including sheep pox, Australia’s trade position. Not only will the blue tongue, screw worm fly and Rift Valley return of the sheep without adequate quaran- fever. tine controls impact on Australia’s export markets—in lamb, for example—it will also The National Farmers Federation, the Cat- serve to undermine Australia’s defence of its tle Council of Australia, the Sheepmeat quarantine regime in the World Trade Or- Council of Australia, WoolProducers, the ganisation. An EU challenge on quarantine is Australian Meat Industry Council, the West- currently under way. In the face of all this, ern Australian Meat Marketing Cooperative, the government has said nothing about how

CHAMBER 16520 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 it proposes to manage the quarantine risks Senate deserves full compliance with its re- associated with the MV Cormo Express, turn to order, and I ask the minister to reflect nothing about this assessment of risks and— on the inadequate response which he has except for the placement of fly swatters on given and table the requested documents. the ship and additional blood tests—nothing (Time expired) about how it will control the risk represented Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- by these sheep. Nor has the government said sland—Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and where the sheep are going to be slaughtered. Conservation) (3.14 p.m.)—I do not want to The Senate order demanded the produc- prolong this debate unnecessarily as I appre- tion of the master’s report revealing mortal- ciate that the take note of answers is still to ity aboard the vessel. We have one that is be dealt with. I do want to respond to Sena- now three days old, which was tabled by the tor O’Brien though and tell him what the minister today. But we know that the gov- people of Australia are really sick and tired ernment receives a daily report because of, and that is the opposition playing politics Senator Ian Macdonald told the Senate just with a matter that is of significant national that. We have a report that is three days old; I interest. It is a situation that has arisen not wonder why we cannot have a more up-to- through the government’s making but one date report. The government should explain which we are responsibly addressing, along that. It was not explained in the statement, with the industry and along with many other other than saying that the government was stakeholders. I do urge Senator O’Brien, who still looking at it. One wonders why it cannot I think, generally speaking, has the interests release for the Senate’s information and cer- of Australia at heart, to consider what these tainly for public consumption more up-to- petty political attacks on Mr Truss are doing date figures on the mortality events for the to Australia’s reputation. ship. Mr Truss has received universal commen- While two independent veterinary inspec- dation for the way in which he has handled tions have cleared the sheep of any infectious this most difficult issue, and I think the peo- diseases or conditions, including scabby ple of Australia understand better than you, mouth, the sheep have been confined to pens Senator O’Brien, that this is a difficult situa- aboard the ship for 72 days. At least 5,200 tion and it has to be worked through. You have died, and it is not clear how many raised the issue of disposal at sea. The legal might survive a return journey, especially if advice I have is that sheep dying on the way that journey is via Cocos (Keeling) Islands over were macerated and disposed of—this with some quarantine checks to be conducted is allowed for under the convention. But that there. Australia’s livestock and meat process- is a bit different from throwing overboard ing industries deserve to know how the gov- 50,000 recently killed sheep with their stom- ernment proposes to manage the quarantine achs slit open. That is in conflict with the risk associated with the return of the MV London convention on disposal of wastes at Cormo Express and so do the 57,000 thou- sea, as I am advised. There is a very big dif- sand Australians whose jobs depend on Aus- ference between disposing of 20 or 30 sheep tralia’s livestock and meat sector not being overboard a day while the ship is moving compromised. The Australian people are and 50,000 sheep overboard, and I would sickened by Mr Truss’s inept handling of this have thought that whether or not that is the fiasco, and they deserve an answer on the legal position—although I am advised it is— condition of the sheep aboard the vessel. The

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16521 even commonsense would explain the differ- town. Let us just revisit history for a minute. ence between those two situations. When the government released their much- I reiterate that the minister for agriculture vaunted first draft CLERP bill nearly one has advised that the information will be year ago, their proud boast was the 72 pages made public, and I anticipated that when I and 44 recommendations in the bill. But first answered this question. The government there was one issue that never got a mention has been investigating it and looking at put- in the 72 pages and 44 recommendations. ting in place risk management regimes in There are no prizes for guessing it was about conjunction with the industry. The master’s executive remuneration. Twelve months ago, report has been tabled. The most recent mas- in your big CLERP 9 document, there was ter’s report only arrived this morning and has not one word. You have been dragged not been considered but it will be made screaming and kicking on this issue. available. Senator Ferguson—What did you do Mr Truss has been open—I will not say about it? more open, because government ministers Senator CONROY—Senator Ferguson are always open in everything that they do— asks what we proposed. Our proposals were and I do not think anyone could criticise the already on the table. We had already put our openness with which Mr Truss has dealt with proposals on the table. This is a government this matter. He has held regular news confer- that is soft on the big end of town. This is a ences. He has appeared on national televi- government that has been forced to adopt sion. He has explained the government posi- Labor’s proposals on how to deal with cor- tion. He has not hidden anything whatsoever. porate excess. The strategy from this gov- It is a most difficult position and whichever ernment on this issue is: what is the mini- way you turn there are problems to be ad- mum we can try to get away with to look dressed. The government is addressing those respectable? We have seen the government problems maturely and responsibly. I would dissembling. have thought that this is one instance—there Ross Cameron blew the whistle. Last Fri- are not many that happen in our business— day in the Australian Financial Review he where national wellbeing would override any said that shareholders should stop indulging political point scoring that might be thought in ‘carping negativity’, because they dare to to be obtained from this very difficult issue. ask questions about why their shareholders’ Question agreed to. funds are being looted by CEOs in this coun- QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: try. We are not talking about the US and the TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS grossly obscene excess we have seen there; we are talking about the looting of Australian Answers to Questions publicly listed companies, and shareholders Senator CONROY (Victoria) (3.19 have had enough. Ross Cameron is out of p.m.)—I move: touch when it comes to this issue. We have That the Senate take note of answers given by seen the sort of excess—and I know that ministers to questions without notice asked by some of my colleagues are going to talk opposition senators today. about some of it—and the looting that has Today we have seen this government ex- gone on. posed yet again for its soft-touch regulation We have seen David Higgins, the ex-CEO when it comes to dealing with the top end of of Lend Lease, take home $8 million on his

CHAMBER 16522 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 departure including—and wait for this—he mitted to finding the right balance. That is a has lost $715 million of shareholders’ funds balance that does the minimum amount it can in one year. They paid him $1.61 million to to stamp down on corporate greed in this not go and work for a rival. I would have country. We have to do more than just what paid him that much to go and work for their is in this package if we are going to give rivals! That was what they gave him. This shareholders power, start reining in the greed year we have seen David Murray of the CBA and get the snouts out of the trough. (Time take home $2.5 million. That is a 7.4 per cent expired) increase for running the Commonwealth Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (3.24 Bank despite the fact that the bank’s net p.m.)—The Senate is taking note of certain profit slumped 24 per cent. matters that relate to what is commonly re- That is what gets up the nose of share- ferred to as CLERP 9. For those listening to holders; that is why it is important that some- this debate, that refers to a coalition initia- thing be done about this sort of excess. Why? tive, the Corporate Law Economic Reform I want to quote from the Harvard Business Program, a great initiative by the govern- Review about why these reforms are impor- ment. I would like to take this opportunity of tant: acknowledging the outstanding contribution When shareholders fail to engage, either in setting made by the former Parliamentary Secretary direction or holding board members accountable to the Treasurer, the Hon. Ian Campbell, in for their behaviour, an important link in the gov- developing this bill and this act. His contri- ernance system is missing. In this context, a di- bution was very significant and no doubt rector’s allegiance shifts from its proper base— contributed to the Prime Minister’s decision the shareholders—to the nearby boardroom, to elevate him to ministerial status. where fellow directors and management fill the void. Interestingly, this bill was referred to a Senate committee before it hit the parlia- What Labor has been about in leading this ment. It was referred to the Joint Committee debate is empowering shareholders. What of Public Accounts and Audit, which for the has been the Prime Minister’s attitude? Let first time looked at a major matter in relation us talk about the crocodile tears of the Prime to the private sector. The JCPA has had a Minister. The only thing John Howard has long history of actively seeking to improve ever done about corporate excess in this the role and independence of the Common- country is talk about it. In 1996, in relation to wealth Auditor-General, and the government wage restraint, Mr Howard said: believed that it was an essential agent of the ... the obligation to display wage restraint, the government’s accountability to parliament obligation to ensure that wage increases are and for ensuring that there was good corpo- linked to productivity gains, is not an obligation that is confined to people on low and middle in- rate governance in the public sector. This comes. It is an obligation that is also to be ac- inquiry was a great opportunity for the com- cepted and to be met in full by people on high mittee to bring its expertise on audit, corpo- incomes. rate governance and other matters to inde- This government has a record; it is a record pendently review this particular legislation. of self-regulation and light touch regulation, The examination was carried out and the and it has been the green light for corporate report was presented in August 2002. greed. We will not get much out of this gov- What is surprising is that it was a unani- ernment. As they describe it, they are com- mous report from a committee that included

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16523

Labor members and senators. It is also sur- was not appropriate but are now coming prising to find that since that report has come around to wanting that detailed prescription. down, the Labor Party have moved away (Time expired) from what is in those recommendations. That Senator WONG (South Australia) (3.29 is indeed unfortunate. The Labor Party then p.m.)—I rise to speak to Senator Conroy’s took a position different from that which motion, and I wish to speak particularly to they are taking today. In a sense, there is a answers given by the Assistant Treasurer in little bit of political opportunism here, be- question time today. What we saw today, cause this is a far-reaching reform, an initia- again, was the inaction and timidity that tive of this government, to overhaul certain characterises this government’s approach to deficiencies which were in the law. There corporate governance and corporate regula- were deficiencies, and we are not walking tion. The CLERP 9 discussion paper was away from that, and there were excesses. I released in September last year. We have had remind honourable senators that those exit out for a year but it is only now that we cesses were not nearly as bad as those in the have finally got to the stage of having a bill. United States, but we all have some sorrow- Surprise, surprise, it is a draft bill, so we are ful memories of HIH and other disasters. In going to have a further period of consultation relation to the opposition’s current position, I with the corporate sector about regulation will quote from the report of the joint com- before anything can be done to rein in some mittee—a unanimous report—where it says: of the documented corporate excesses which The Committee is not convinced that an overly Australians have become sick and tired of. prescriptive reaction is warranted or appropriate. So first there was inaction from the gov- I remind honourable senators that senators ernment and then, if you look at the text of opposite in the ALP are now asking for an the bill and the minister’s answers today, overly prescriptive approach—just the oppo- timidity. They are extremely timid in their site to what was laid down earlier. The report response to the corporate sector. One won- goes on to say: ders why. Are they simply frightened of scar- It is impossible to demand infallibility or imple- ing the big end of town by requiring them to ment a ‘zero-risk’ policy. disclose properly to shareholders some of the Directors must take risks; they must get re- practices in their boardrooms? The Howard warded. The report continues: government continues to put the interests of Given the inherent risk of business and the need directors over those of shareholders despite for risk to drive entrepreneurial activity, a risk their championing of Australia as a share- management rather than a risk aversion approach holding society. They keep playing to the big is appropriate and increased accountability should end of town instead of improving corporate be demanded of the corporate sector and audit practice and reining in corporate excess. profession. Today the Assistant Treasurer was asked a It is significant that the government re- number of questions. One of them from me sponded very positively to that unanimous was this: why ought not directors disclose, report and agreed with virtually all of it. when they are seeking election to a board, Where they did not agree they said that the the relationship between the director and the concepts were embodied in the report as such company? Why ought not the director dis- and did not need a detailed prescription. We close that? The minister could not provide an have here a situation where the Labor Party answer to that. She could not provide a good previously felt that detailed black-letter law

CHAMBER 16524 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 reason why shareholders ought not be told, if business. I wait with bated breath for an ex- a director is seeking election to a board, planation from the government benches as to whether a director has a commercial or other why things such as disclosure of a relation- relationship with a company or a relationship ship with the company and disclosure of a with one of the other directors. One fails to relationship with other directors are bad for see what shareholder value would flow from doing business, why they would be such a such relationships. If there were shareholder fetter on the ability of business to engage in value in such relationships, then you come its activities, and finally why loans to com- back to the question of why you would not pany directors ought be permitted. I wait disclose it. Is it such an onerous task to dis- with bated breath for the explanation as to close it? These are not issues that the minis- why these are important issues. Perhaps the ter chose to address in her answer. Instead minister could also explain how those things she went on and on about not wanting to be would be to the detriment of shareholders. If too prescriptive. Her mantra is that CLERP 9 this government is interested, as it keeps an- has struck the right balance and that the gov- nouncing, in disclosure and in shareholders ernment does believe in transparency and being informed about the activities of com- disclosure. It seems they believe in transpar- panies, why is it opposed to basic disclosure ency, but only a little bit of transparency, and of things such as relationships between di- disclosure, but only a little bit of disclosure. rectors seeking election? (Time expired) Another question the minister failed to Senator FERGUSON (South Australia) properly answer in question time is why (3.34 p.m.)—Today is a very interesting day. CLERP 9 proposals fail to prohibit a com- Later on we will debate an MPI based on the pany loan to directors. This is a question I performance of this government in relation am sure a lot of Australians would be inter- to the economy. I have never seen such a free ested in. Why is it that directors might have kick to the government as that which will be access to either interest-free or cut-rate loans proposed by Senator George Campbell at a from companies when the rest of Australia later date in relation to the Australian econ- has to go to a bank or other financial institu- omy. If there is one area involving the inter- tion for this sort of credit? Is there share- ests of Australians that this government can holder value in permitting these loans to be be terribly proud of, it is what has happened advanced? If there is, perhaps someone on to our economy since 1996, when you com- the government side can get up and explain pare it to our predecessor. We have Senator to me what shareholder value is to be found Conroy getting up and talking about execu- in allowing companies to provide capital in tive remunerations and other things that this the form of loans to directors at a cut-price government has acted on in the time it has rate. I cannot see how that leads to better been in power, particularly in relation to corporate governance or in fact leads to more CLERP 9. For 13 years Senator Conroy and profitable public companies, and that is what his party did absolutely nothing about execu- we are talking about here. Again, the Assis- tive directors’ remuneration—not a thing. tant Treasurer simply goes on and on about The only party that is interested in making not wanting to be prescriptive, which seems sure that there is some equality and some to be the standard response when asked why fairness in relation to directors’ remuneration they are not doing anything at all. is this party, the government party, the Lib- We are simply told by the government that eral-National parties. Senator Conroy comes we in the ALP know nothing about doing in here and complains, and yet he and his

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16525 party did absolutely nothing—not a thing— tion whatsoever. They were very happy to let over a period of 13 years. We have this po- executives have a free rein then, but all of a litical opportunism from people like Senator sudden, having written and been part of a Conroy and Senator Wong, who has just unanimous report, they have changed their spoken, who feel that they can touch some minds and told nobody. Shareholders now little political nerve whenever we see the have a say when previously shareholders had publicity about some executive remunera- no say. When Senator Conroy talks about tion. reining in the excesses of some executive My colleague Senator Watson has already directors, perhaps he ought to think about explained as a member of the Joint Commit- reining in the excesses of some of the union tee of Public Accounts and Audit that the leaders who dominate his party. In many Labor Party joined with the government in ways, the excesses of union leaders affect 2002 in a unanimous report in relation to what happens in this country in a far greater executive remuneration, transparency and a way than anything that executives might do. range of other issues that were covered in Report 391, the report of the joint public that report. What has changed in the view of accounts committee, has dealt with transpar- the Labor Party in relation to that unanimous ency and disclosure. That is the important view that they held only last year? Is it be- thing. We now have a situation where the cause they see some political opportunism government’s CLERP package is designed to because of public comment or have they improve disclosure and transparency in rela- gone back on the principles that were en- tion to executive remuneration packages. shrined in that report, which was unanimous? This government has achieved the right bal- That was report 391 of the joint public ac- ance, and what we want in this whole affair counts committee. All I can say is that Sena- is the right balance between being overly tor Conroy, as spokesman, ought to go back prescriptive and black-letter law. This gov- and look at what his party thought 12 months ernment has achieved the right balance in ago. Perhaps he wants to come in here and improving the level of disclosure to share- say, ‘We were wrong; we should never have holders and in avoiding prescriptive regula- supported the unanimous view of this com- tions that will overburden companies with mittee; we should have done something en- red tape. (Time expired) tirely different and gone our own way. We Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL (New should have put an overly prescriptive re- South Wales) (3.39 p.m.)—I also rise to take gime in place. We made a mistake in 2002 in note of Senator Coonan’s answers in respect joining with the unanimous report of the of questions asked of her today regarding public accounts committee.’ CLERP 9. I look forward to hearing Senator What Senator Conroy and Senator Wong Ferguson’s contribution to the debate that want is black-letter law, more prescription. will follow this one in respect of the gov- We have got to the stage now where we have ernment’s performance on debt. I look for- had exposure drafts, where we have had a ward to hearing his contribution, but I do not unanimous report and where we have given think he will be allowed near the debate at all the stakeholders a chance to have a say. all. Shareholders will have a far greater say than In coming back to the issue of CLERP 9 they ever had under the Keating government and the questions to Senator Coonan today, and the Hawke government. In the 13 years Labor did not say that we were opposed to of Labor government there was no prescrip-

CHAMBER 16526 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 what is in CLERP 9. We welcome some of Billiton. With $30 million in his back pocket, the reforms. We are particularly happy to see he said, ‘Thank you very much. See you the government adopting Labor’s proposals later, friends. I’m off. I’ve got my share of in respect of giving shareholders a non- the stake.’ binding vote on executive remuneration pol- We would be happy to support the gov- icy. But the reality is that the government has ernment’s reforms, but I do not think you are refused to take the issues far enough to deal serious about them. You only have to look at with what are substantial excesses by the big the statement of your Parliamentary Secre- end of town. tary to the Treasurer in the Financial Review In his contribution, Senator Watson talked on Friday. He said that we should not be ob- about the excesses as if they were in the sessed with emoluments to executives and past—that they were gone, that no more ex- directors, that we should not worry about cesses were occurring, that they had all been that. But you are obsessed with black-letter cleaned up. He spoke as though CLERP 9 law when it comes to trade unionists and the had put the clamp on the corporate sector. union movement. You have about 12 bills Let me tell Senator Watson what happened wanting to put in place black-letter law, and yesterday at the annual general meeting of you will have a whole raft of bills wanting to Southcorp, one of our biggest companies: put in place black-letter law in the building they reported a $923 million loss and halved industry when those bills eventually come the share value of the company. That was the before this chamber. It is all right for you to performance that the executive directors of adopt the black-letter law approach—and I Southcorp reported to their annual general see you are smiling, Senator Brandis— meeting yesterday. But what did they do Senator Brandis—I am always smiling. when it came to executive salaries? The CEO Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—Be got a payout of $6 million and the top 10 careful, because the voters might wipe the executives got a payout of more than $1 mil- smile off your face at the next election. You lion each. This is a company that has just lost are quite happy to bring black-letter law into $1 billion, that has just halved its share price, this chamber when it comes to ordinary and the executives have got performance workers and suppressing their rights in the payment for doing it. And that is exactly workplace, but you say that black-letter law what the corporate sector in this country has is not an appropriate response to dealing with been doing since the mid-1990s: rewarding the excesses of executives of major compa- itself for corporate failure. nies in this country. Senator Watson, you Senator Watson knows that there was a know they have been like bees around the litany of corporate greed in this country in honey pot for the past decade, and this gov- that period. Look at the performance of the ernment has done nothing about putting the executive directors of HIH. They ripped off lid back on it—and you will not do it be- people who had put their money into that cause you are not prepared to take on the company. Look at the performance of people at the big end of town. George Trumbull on AMP. He took a major Senator Watson interjecting— company, put it down the gurgler and then took off to the United States with $13 million Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—It is a in his back pocket. They are the sorts of peo- discussion paper, nothing more. Where is the ple who are running major companies in this legislation? country today. Look at Gilbertson from BHP

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16527

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator senators would know, they were sold into George Campbell, address your comments servitude in a red-light district in Bali but through the chair. have been rescued as a consequence of the Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—It is goodwill of an Indonesian-Australian woman nothing more than a discussion paper, and it who is now their carer—not because of any will be interesting to see—(Time expired) efforts attributable to this government. Yet we have now seen a photograph taken Question agreed to. around four days ago of the Prime Minister Immigration: Visas holding the hand of four-year-old Sara. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- That expression of what we hope is com- tralia) (3.44 p.m.)—I move: passion is not reflected in government policy. That the Senate take note of the answer given It is not reflected in the fact that these kids by the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural cannot get a two-week visa to visit their fa- and Indigenous Affairs (Senator Vanstone) to a ther, whom they have not seen for two years. question without notice asked by Senator Crossin These children have been practically or- today relating to the Sammaki family and their phaned, albeit they have a carer now who is application for a visa. looking after them out of the goodness of her This question was inspired by a photograph heart and indeed is suffering financial and that the Australian Democrats revealed pub- other difficulties as a consequence of dealing licly today. It was a photograph that I made with two extra children in what I believe is a available— one-income household. Senator Faulkner—It wasn’t inspired by The photograph attests to the fact that the that at all. Prime Minister has seen in the flesh, has pre- Senator STOTT DESPOJA—I take that sumably spoken with and has certainly held interjection. We thought that the photograph the hand of one of these children—both chil- was the subject of the question in the lower dren are in the photograph. Does this repre- house today. It is the photograph that shows sent a change of heart by our Prime Minister Prime Minister Howard holding the hand of and our government or are they simply going four-year-old Sara Sammaki, daughter of Mr to be holding the hands of the children in this Ibrahim Sammaki, who has spent more than photograph but not actually holding their two years in detention. He is now in the Bax- hands in the way that it matters—that is, ter detention facility in South Australia. granting a minimum two-week visa? Those two children, Sara and Sabda Sam- The application for this visa has been sup- maki, have applied for a visa—I know that, ported by at least two members of parlia- because I am one of their sponsors—and that ment—Kate Reynolds MLC in South Austra- visa request for two weeks to visit their fa- lia and me—and by magistrate Brian ther has been denied. Deegan, who has made it clear that he will This case is worse because—as many be a guarantor. He will provide finances and honourable senators would be aware, and as ensure that there is no flight risk or any other Senator Crossin mentioned today in her risk posed by these kids aged eight and four. question—the children’s mother, Mrs En- They just want a visa for two weeks to see dang Sammaki, was killed in the Bali bomb- their grieving father, who is in Baxter deten- ings just over a year ago. These children tion centre. I acknowledge that the govern- have been left practically orphaned. As some ment—I think it had a lot to do with the ef-

CHAMBER 16528 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 forts not only of Kate Reynolds but also, I Great Barrier Reef and for the fishing industry in think, of the Premier, Mike Rann, in South general. Australia—ensured that Mr Ibrahim Sam- Your Petitioners request that the Senate should: maki was able to be a part of the memorial • Oppose all Howard government policy initia- service in Adelaide at the Botanic Gardens tives that will undermine the integrity, union the weekend, albeit flanked by three versality and ongoing viability of the fishing ACM guards who, I note for the record, were industry (both professional and recreational) very discreet and helpful indeed. He was in Queensland. flanked by three security guards to attend a • Allow proper consultation and discussion memorial in order to grieve as others did between GRAMPRA and the undersigned over their lost loved ones. without bias. I hope that the new minister will do some- • Allow the undersigned and GRAMPRA to thing about this issue. I hope that today’s form a sound basis to the proposed zoning efforts by both parties to draw attention to plan and allowing the fishing industry, (professional and recreational) combined to this issue will be respected and acted upon. I heavily define the zoning areas of the Great hope the Prime Minister knew exactly who Barrier Reef to a mutual and beneficial he was talking to when this photograph was agreement for all parties concerned. taken. If he did not, he should act on it now. by The President (from 1,052 citizens). This government and the minister need to provide a two-week visa for these children to Constitutional Reform: Senate Powers see their grieving father. The Prime Minister, From the citizens of Australia to the President of now that he has been captured holding the the Senate of the Parliament of Australia hand of this child, displaying what we pre- We the undersigned believe that the Prime Minis- sume is compassion, must act on that com- ter’s call for Senate Reform is an attempt to dilute passion and ensure that those applications— the powers of the Senate and to enable the Execu- (Time expired) tive to have absolute control over parliament. Question agreed to. We urge all Senators to ensure the powers and responsibilities, of the Senate are protected in the PETITIONS interests of ensuring good governance on behalf The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged of the Australian people and to oppose any moves for presentation as follows: by the current, or future, Governments to weaken the ability of the Senate to be a check and balance Environment: Great Barrier Reef Marine on the Government of the day. Park by Senator Bartlett (from 60 citizens). To the Honourable the President and Members of the Senate in Parliament assembled: Immigration: People-Smuggling The Petition of the undersigned shows: To the Honourable President and members of the Senate in Parliament: We strongly reject the proposed draft-zoning plan of areas in Queensland by Great Barrier Reef We request that the Senate call for a full inde- Park Authority (GRMPRA) a federal government pendent judicial inquiry into the role of Australian department. Furthermore we object to the way the Defence Force personnel and the Australian Fed- submissions were used in forming the proposed eral Police in immigration-related activities in- draft zoning plans without proper public discus- cluding (a) the circumstances surrounding the sion (public being the undersigned) to allow an sinking of the SIEV-X and (b) the people- equitable and sustainable fishery for future of the smuggling disruption program in Indonesia. by Senator Bartlett (from 43 citizens).

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16529

Child Abuse by Senator Moore (from 11 citizens). To the Honourable Members of the Senate in the Education: Higher Education Parliament Assembled To the Honourable the President and Members of The Petition of the undersigned draws attention to the Senate in Parliament assembled. the damaging long-term effects to Australian so- The Petition of the undersigned draws to the at- ciety caused by the sexual assault and abuse of tention of the Senate, concerns that increasing children and the concealment of these crimes university fees will be inequitable. within churches, government bodies and other institutions. Your petitioners believe: Your petitioners ask the Senate, in Parliament to a) fees are a barrier to higher education and call on the Federal Government to initiate a Royal note this is acknowledged by the Commission into the sexual assault and abuse of Government in the Higher Education at the children in Australia and the ongoing cover-ups of Crossroads publication (DEST, May 2002, these matters. Canberra, para 107, p, 22); by Senator Bartlett (from 20 citizens). b) fees disproportionately affect key equity groups—especially indigenous, low socio- Medicare economic background and rural, regional and To the Honourable the President and Members of remote students—and note, participation of the Senate in Parliament assembled: these groups improved from the early 1990s The petition of the undersigned shows: until 1996 but have subsequently fallen back to about 1991 levels (lower in some cases) We strongly support Medicare, our universal pub- following the introduction of differential lic health system. Medicare is an efficient, effec- HECS, declining student income, support tive and fair system, which provides access to levels, lower parental income means test and care based on health needs rather than ability to reduction of Abstudy; pay. This helps to define Australia as a fair, compassionate and caring community. However, c) permitting universities to charge fees 30% Medicare is currently being undermined by the higher than the HECS rate will: Howard Government through under-funding and a. substantially increase student debt; cost shifting to the sick. We reject totally what b. negatively impact on home ownership will result from the proposed changes to Medi- and fertility rates; care: the establishment of a two-tier US-style c. create a more hierarchical, two-tiered health system. university system; and Access to quality health care for all Australians is d) expanding full fee paying places will have an a basic human right that must be ensured. impact on the principle that entry to Your petitioners request that the Senate should: university should be based on ability, not • oppose all Howard Government policy initia- ability to pay. tives that will undermine the integrity, uni- Your petitioners therefore request the Senate act versality and ongoing viability of Medicare; to ensure the principle of equitable access to uni- • ensure bulk billing for all Australians as a versities remain fundamental to higher education fundamental cornerstone of our health sys- policy and that any Bill to further increase fees is tem; rejected. • institute an independent national inquiry into by Senator Stott Despoja (from 40 citi- the future of the Australian health system, so zens). the community determines the type of health Petitions received. system that meets its needs; and • make no change to Medicare until this national independent inquiry is finalised.

CHAMBER 16530 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

NOTICES only one per cent of all agricultural Ã Presentation credit, and (iii) consistent with the values of World Senator Conroy to move on the next day Rural Women’s Day, the Australian of sitting: Government is committed to creating That the Senate— developmental opportunities for rural (a) notes that the Government’s draft women in this country, and with two Corporate Law Economic Reform industry leadership initiatives designed Program (Audit Reform and Corporate to foster the development of rural Disclosure) Bill 2003 will fail to create a women—Industry Partnerships Cor- robust regulatory framework which firstly, porate Governance for Rural Women ensures that boards are accountable and and Rural Industries Research and secondly, ensures that shareholders are Development Corporation’s Rural empowered; Women’s Award—recognises and supports the contribution women make (b) condemns the Government for its failure to rural Australia. to crack down on corporate greed; and (c) expresses its concern that the self- Senator Bartlett to move on the next day regulatory approach of the Howard of sitting: Government has failed to produce That the Senate— outcomes that benefit the shareholder, the (1) That, on Thursday, 23 October 2003, the employee or the retiree. Senate meet at 9.30 am. Senator Troeth to move on the next day (2) The routine of business on that day shall of sitting: be as follows: That the Senate— (a) from 9.30 am to 10.30 am, government (a) recognises the annual World Rural business only; and Women’s Day held on 15 October 2003; (b) from noon: and (i) government business only, and (b) notes that: (ii) at 7.20 pm, adjournment proposed. (i) the idea to hold a World Rural (3) That, on Friday, 24 October 2003, the Women’s Day arose at a United Senate meet at 11 am. Nations Conference for Women in Beijing in 1995, and that it has been (4) The routine of business on that day shall held every year since 1996 to raise the be as follows: profile of rural women, credit their (a) from 11 am to 3.45 pm, government crucial—yet largely unrecognised business only; and roles—and promote action in support, (b) at 3.45 pm, adjournment proposed. (ii) the major role rural women play in Senator Bartlett to move on the next day food and fibre production, food of sitting: security and the development of worldwide rural economies is often That the order of the Senate relating to the overlooked: rural women—mainly days of meeting of the Senate for 2003 be varied farmers—represent more than a quarter by adding an additional sitting week as follows: of the total world population (at least Monday, 17 November to Thursday, 1.6 billion); women produce on 20 November 2003. average more than half of all the food Senator Nettle to move on the next day of that is grown; alarmingly women own sitting: only 2 per cent of the land, and receive

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16531

That the Senate— I seek leave to incorporate in Hansard a (a) notes that strike action called by the short summary of the committee’s concerns National Tertiary Education Union, with this determination. Community and Public Service Union, Leave granted. and other unions has closed universities nationwide; The document read as follows— (b) recognises that this action comes as a Child Disability Assessment Amendment direct result of the Government’s invasive Determination 2003 made under section 38D of and aggressive industrial relations agenda, the Social Security Act 1991 clumsily forced on the sector as part of the This Determination adds to or modifies the de- Backing Australia’s Future package; scription of six disabilities on the List of Recog- (c) notes that this agenda will have an impact nised Disabilities in Schedule 3 of the principal not only on the working conditions of Determination. general staff and academics but also on The Committee notes that this Determination has the broader quality of higher education in a retrospective commencement date, having been Australia; made on 12 August 2003, but commencing on (d) endorses the action of the unions involved 1 July 2003. Whilst the retrospective commence- in this action; ment appears to be beneficial in effect, the Ex- planatory Statement does not contain any assur- (e) supports the right of these unions to ance that this does not disadvantage any person collectively bargain on behalf of their other than the Commonwealth, pursuant to s members; 48(2) of the Acts Interpretation Act 1901. The (f) respects the ongoing right of these unions Committee has written to the Minister seeking an to take protected action when necessary; assurance that no person has been disadvantaged. and Senator TCHEN (Victoria) (3.51 p.m.)— (g) calls on the Government to scrap the I give notice that 15 sitting days after today I proposed higher education workplace shall move: relations requirements and allow universities to bargain constructively with That the Inclusion of Species in the List of unions and their members. Threatened Species made under section 178 of the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Senator O’Brien to move on the next day Conservation Act 1999, be disallowed. of sitting: I seek leave to incorporate in Hansard a That the management of the quarantine risks short summary of the committee’s concerns associated with the return of the sheep stranded aboard the MV Cormo Express and related with this instrument. matters be referred to the Rural and Regional Leave granted. Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee for The document read as follows— inquiry and report by the last sitting day in November 2003. Inclusion of Species in the List of Threatened Species made under section 178 of the Senator TCHEN (Victoria) (3.50 p.m.)— Environment Protection and Biodiversity I give notice that 15 sitting days after today I Conservation Act 1999 shall move: The Committee notes that this instrument is dated That the Child Disability Assessment Amend- 4 March 2002. It is not clear whether this is a ment Determination 2003 made under section typographical error, or whether there has been a 38D of the Social Security Act 1991, be disal- delay of eighteen months between the making of lowed. the instrument and its gazettal. The Committee

CHAMBER 16532 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 has written to the Minister seeking clarification of (b) notes that the Australian Government has this matter. failed to respond to these calls and that Mr Senator Crossin and Senator Stott De- Hicks and Mr Habib remain incarcerated spoja to move on the next day of sitting: in Camp X-Ray; and (c) calls on the Prime Minister (Mr Howard) That the Senate— to use the visit to Australia of United (a) notes that: States President George W Bush in the (i) university staff around Australia will week beginning 19 October 2003 to take national industrial action on request the return to Australia of Mr Hicks 16 October 2003 in protest against the and Mr Habib so that they can face trial or Howard Government’s unfair univer- be freed. sity changes, including hardline and Senator Brown to move on the next day untenable industrial relations con- of sitting: ditions that have been placed on $404 million of desperately needed univer- Recognising that the Sydney Opera House is sity funding, having its 30th birthday, that there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for (ii) seven unions covering university staff the Environment and Heritage, no later that 3 pm across Australia will be supporting the on 27 October 2003, any assessment made since strike, and 1996 in preparation for, or consideration of, a (iii) vice-chancellors across the country world heritage nomination for the Sydney Opera have expressed their lack of support House. and concern in relation to the Senator Harris to move on the next day Government’s requirement to link funding to industrial requirements; and of sitting: (b) calls on the Federal Government to That the Senate— provide this funding to universities on the (a) considers that the MV Cormo Express basis of quality and improved educational must not proceed directly from a foreign outcomes. port to any Australian mainland port, as Senator Nettle to move on the next day of this would compromise Australian sitting: quarantine regulations; (b) notes that the MV Cormo Express must That the Senate— undergo a process of quarantine including (a) recalls that: cleaning, disinfecting and checking of the (i) on 10 December 2002, the Senate ship and its cargo; called on the Australian Government as (c) considers that prior to the MV Cormo a matter of urgency to take whatever Express entering the Australian territorial steps were required to return to waters of the Cocos Islands, the Australia Mr David Hicks and Mr Government must take regard of the Mamdouh Habib, incarcerated at Camp following: X-Ray in Guantanemo Bay, Cuba, to (i) the MV Cormo Express may be determine whether they should be freed carrying unwanted organisms in its or face trial, and ballast and drinking waters, (ii) on 14 August 2003, the Senate called (ii) at least 125 tonnes of sheep excrement on the Australian Government to take will have accumulated during the immediate steps to secure the release voyage back from Kuwait and will from Camp X-Ray and return Mr Hicks need to be disposed of, and Mr Habib to Australia;

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16533

(iii) this excrement contains highly that are protected under the China- concentrated levels of nitrates and Australia Migratory Birds Agreement phosphates that have been shown to be and the Japan-Australia Migratory highly toxic to coral organisms, even in Birds Agreement; minute quantities, (b) calls on the Government to: (iv) Cocos Island is a coral atoll and the (i) recognise that the Lake Cowal/ lagoon and surrounding oceans are Wilbertroy wetland contains values extremely rich in coral, worthy of its listing under the Ramsar (v) burying the excrement on the island Convention on Wetlands of Inter- may not be feasible for logistical and national Importance, and environmental reasons as screwworm (ii) work with the New South Wales State fly larvae may be present in the Government to achieve Ramsar listing excrement, of the site; and (vi) the introduction of screwworm fly to (c) calls on the Minister for the Environment the island or the Australian mainland and Heritage (Dr Kemp), if Ramsar listing would be devastating to Australian is achieved, to reconsider the decision that agriculture, the proposed construction and (vii) due to the size and draft of the MV rehabilitation of an open pit goldmine and Cormo Express, it would be unable to associated infrastructure at Lake Cowal anchor within the lagoon, does not require ministerial approval (viii) the depth of the surrounding water and under the Environment Protection and the rate at which the depth increases Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999. would make it virtually impossible for Senator Nettle to move on the next day of the vessel to stand off and anchor sitting: within the port limits of Port Refuge, That there be laid on the table by the Minister and representing the Minister for Trade (Senator Hill), (ix) if the sheep were to be unloaded at no later than 30 October 2003, documents Cocos, the availability of water and detailing the results of the independent food stock will have to be addressed; environmental and social audit of the Sepon Mine and project in Laos, conducted by Graham A Brown (d) considers that, because of these factors, and Associates and provided to the Export the Government must recognise that the Finance Insurance Corporation, the providers of Cocos islands are an unsuitable alternative political risk insurance for this project. destination for the sheep on the MV COMMITTEES Cormo Express. Selection of Bills Committee Senator Nettle to move on the next day of sitting: Report That the Senate— Senator FERRIS (South Australia) (3.57 p.m.)—I present the 13th report of 2003 of (a) notes that Lake Cowal is: the Selection of Bills Committee. (i) listed on the Australian Register of the National Estate and Environment Ordered that the report be adopted. Australia’s Directory of Important Senator FERRIS—I seek leave to have Wetlands, and is a National Trust the report incorporated in Hansard. landscape conservation area, and Leave granted. (ii) home to 170 species of waterbirds as well as many migratory bird species The report read as follows—

CHAMBER 16534 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE Business of the Senate notice of motion no. 3 REPORT NO. 13 OF 2003 standing in the name of Senator Murray for today, relating to the reference of matters to 1. The committee met on Tuesday, 14 October the Employment, Workplace Relations and 2003. Education References Committee, postponed 2. The committee resolved to recommend— till 16 October 2003. That the Financial Management and General business notice of motion no. 646 Accountability (Anti-Restrictive Software standing in the name of Senator Allison for Practices) Amendment Bill 2003 not be today, relating to a resolution of the National referred to a committee. Party’s Federal Conference on the ethanol The committee recommends accordingly. industry, postponed till 16 October 2003. 3. The committee deferred consideration of the General business notice of motion no. 652 following bills to the next meeting: standing in the name of the Leader of the Bill deferred from meeting of 12 August 2003 Australian Democrats (Senator Bartlett) for Civil Aviation Legislation Amendment today, relating to nuclear weapons, (Mutual Recognition with New Zealand and postponed till 16 October 2003. Other Matters) Bill 2003. SCIENCE: CHIEF SCIENTIST Bill deferred from meeting of 19 August 2003 Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (3.58 National Animal Welfare Bill 2003. p.m.)—by leave—I move the motion, as Jeannie Ferris amended: Chair That the Senate— 15 October 2003. (a) notes: NOTICES (i) that Australia’s Chief Scientist Dr Robin Batterham is also the chief Postponement technologist for mining giant Rio Items of business were postponed as fol- Tinto, and lows: (ii) that Dr Batterham continues to advise Business of the Senate notice of motion no. 1 the Government on matters relating to standing in the name of the Leader of the Australia’s greenhouse policy; Australian Democrats (Senator Bartlett) for (b) calls on the Government to conduct an 16 October 2003, relating to the disallow- independent review of the advice Dr ance of the Fisheries Management Batterham has given on geo sequestration; Amendment Regulations 2003 (No. 3), as and contained in Statutory Rules 2003 No. 112, (c) requests the Minister for Science (Mr postponed till 30 October 2003. Peter McGauran) to make the job of Chief Business of the Senate notice of motion no. 1 Scientist full-time and conditional on its standing in the name of the Leader of the officeholder having no pecuniary interest Australian Democrats (Senator Bartlett) for which involves real or apparent conflict today, relating to the disallowance of clause with any of the duties involved. 4(3) of the Housing Assistance (Form of Senator CARR (Victoria) (3.59 p.m.)— Agreement) Determination 2003, postponed by leave—I would like to make a short state- till 30 October 2003. ment on this motion about the Chief Business of the Senate notice of motion no. 2 Scientist. This is a serious matter. This is a standing in the name of Senator Bolkus for today, relating to the reference of matters to motion which is calling for an independent the Legal and Constitutional References inquiry into certain matters of research that Committee, postponed till 16 October 2003. the Chief Scientist has presented, about

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16535 which there have been allegations of a con- made by Senator Carr on Senator Brown’s flict of interest. The opposition will be motion. The Chief Scientist was appointed supporting this proposition, and I would like because of the wide range of experience he to explain briefly why I feel that is necessary. brings to the role, including his active, cur- The government was advised yesterday— rent involvement in the real world of re- directly by me, through the minister’s office search and development and innovation in and his ministerial adviser, and at the Press industry through his employment with Rio Club in a direct discussion with the Minister Tinto. The Chief Scientist provides advice to for Science, Mr McGauran—that unless the the government on many issues relating to government were able to produce the rele- science, engineering and innovation. How- vant documents required in a Senate return to ever, he is by no means the primary source of order the opposition would be supporting advice on matters relating to Australia’s this motion. The government has failed to greenhouse policy. provide those documents. The Chief Scientist is able to provide in- It needs to be stated that this is a position dependent advice to ministers. His advice is whereby the opposition do not prejudge the considered by relevant ministers as they see case—I have no reason to doubt that the fit, along with any other advice they may Chief Scientist is a man of stature and no receive. There is no basis to subject the Chief evidence that he has behaved improperly. We Scientist’s advice to independent review. The have called for an independent inquiry of Chief Scientist is diligent in ensuring that he these matters. We have done so simply be- has declared any conflict of interest—real or cause the government has failed to provide perceived—in his dealings. I doubt that there important documents, which the Senate has is a leading scientist in Australia who would asked for and which are legitimate for the not have complete faith in his competence or government to provide. This is a problem his integrity. that has arisen simply because the govern- The government considers that it was ap- ment maintains a position where the Chief propriate for the Chief Scientist to be ap- Scientist is operating on a part-time basis and pointed on a part-time basis while holding is employed on a part-time basis by Rio employment in a relevant field. The ar- Tinto for a figure—I am advised and have rangements for the engagement of the Chief yet to be corrected on this—of some Scientist include provisions dealing with $700,000 per annum. To me that presents a disclosure and management of conflict of situation in which there appears to be a con- interest. Where the Chief Scientist is in- flict of interest on matters of major public volved in providing advice in relation to the policy. This is a question we feel ought to be allocation of funds, such as in his role as a resolved by way of an inquiry. We have member of the Cooperative Research Centres called on the government to conduct an in- Committee, appropriate probity arrange- dependent inquiry—not by the Senate at this ments are in place. The Chief Scientist has point—to provide the documents and to ad- declared any conflict of interest in his role in dress the issues which, in my judgment, the CRC program. Rio Tinto also has a fire- could be done very quickly. wall arrangement in place to ensure that the Senator KEMP (Victoria—Minister for Chief Scientist is not involved in proposals the Arts and Sport) (4.01 p.m.)—by leave—I seeking Australian government funding. want to respond to some of the remarks

CHAMBER 16536 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.03 independent analysis of it. I might add that p.m.)—by leave—The motion is concerned my information is that the Chief Scientist with the evidence that the Chief Scientist has gave the figure of $10 a tonne—which is put before a number of committees, includ- very attractive in influencing future planning ing the Prime Minister’s scientific advisory by government in geosequestration—as hav- committee. He has provided figures for the ing come from Roam Consulting in Bris- potential cost of geosequestration of car- bane, but in fact it turns out that Roam Con- bon—an unproven technology but one which sulting in Brisbane does not own that figure. would greatly help the coal and aluminium Moreover, Roam Consulting was being paid industries, of which Rio Tinto is a major in turn by Rio Tinto. There is a prima facie player in Australia—which state that this case to be answered. technology could achieve the outcome of The apparent conflict that is involved here sequestrating carbon at something like $10 a is very serious. Hundreds of millions of dol- tonne. lars depend upon the advice that the Prime As far as I know, no other exponent or ex- Minister and the government get from the pert in the field has come up with and put on energy sector as to where research and de- the record a figure as low as that. Generally velopment dollars should go. It has to be the the figures are somewhere between $40 and right advice: it has to be balanced, it has to $200 per tonne, not $10 per tonne. Among be correctly attributed and it has to be the others, I spoke to the World Bank’s expert in prevailing advice which is corroborated by the field, Dr Robert Watson, when he was in peers. I am concerned that that has not been Canberra two weeks ago. I asked him what the case. This motion simply calls on the his figures were, and he said in the order of government to have an independent assess- $60 to $200 a tonne. But if the Chief Scien- ment. As Senator Carr said, the motion tist is giving evidence to the Prime Minister passed by the Senate asking for documents and to his advisory committee that it is $10 a from the government to look at the original tonne then no doubt they are going to view Roam consultancy document, which went to this as potentially a much more commercial the Prime Minister’s advisory council, has so reality. In the allocation of funds that flow far been turned down. It is right for the Sen- from that, other competing potentials like ate to therefore ask for an independent in- solar power, energy efficiency and wind quiry. I flag here that, if the government is power will tend to be discounted. They will not going to agree with that, there will be have a harder time being funded. further measures put forward through which Last year, lo and behold, while the renew- the Senate can pursue this matter. able energy cooperative research centre was Question put: being defunded, four research centres— That the motion (Senator Brown’s), as including one looking at geosequestration, in amended, be agreed to. which Rio Tinto had involvement—were The Senate divided. [4.13 p.m.] funded by the government. There is scarce (The President—Senator the Hon. Paul funding. The government has the Chief Sci- Calvert) entist as adviser. The Chief Scientist’s figures are lower than others I can discover and Ayes………… 34 they feed into a system which must impact Noes………… 30 on funding of research centres. If the figure Majority……… 4 is valid, there is no worry about having an

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16537

AYES (a) recognises that global terrorism is a threat Allison, L.F. Bartlett, A.J.J. to the international rule of law and the Bishop, T.M. Bolkus, N. fundamental human rights of all peoples; Brown, B.J. Buckland, G. (b) notes that the United States (US) Campbell, G. Carr, K.J. Government continues to detain more than Cherry, J.C. Collins, J.M.A. 600 detainees at Guantanamo Bay and, in Crossin, P.M. Denman, K.J. particular, that: Evans, C.V. Greig, B. (i) none of the detainees has been Harradine, B. Harris, L. charged with any criminal offence, Hogg, J.J. Hutchins, S.P. Kirk, L. Ludwig, J.W. (ii) reports indicate that the Lundy, K.A. Mackay, S.M. * detainees include children as young as Marshall, G. McLucas, J.E. 13 years of age, Moore, C. Murray, A.J.M. (iii) by classifying the detainees as Nettle, K. O’Brien, K.W.K. ‘unlawful combatants’, the US has Ray, R.F. Ridgeway, A.D. stripped them of the rights and Stephens, U. Stott Despoja, N. protections that would have otherwise Webber, R. Wong, P. been available to them as prisoners of NOES war under the Geneva Conventions, Abetz, E. Alston, R.K.R. (iv) by holding the detainees at Barnett, G. Boswell, R.L.D. Guantanamo Bay, the US has prevented Brandis, G.H. Calvert, P.H. them from challenging the legality of Campbell, I.G. Chapman, H.G.P. their detention under US law, and Colbeck, R. Coonan, H.L. (v) it is proposed to try the Eggleston, A. Ferguson, A.B. detainees before military tribunals, Ferris, J.M. * Heffernan, W. Humphries, G. Johnston, D. which lack independence, do not adhere Kemp, C.R. Lightfoot, P.R. to the usual rules of evidence, severely Macdonald, J.A.L. Mason, B.J. limit the right to appeal and are subject McGauran, J.J.J. Patterson, K.C. to Presidential direction; Payne, M.A. Santoro, S. (c) notes that the US refuses to recognise the Scullion, N.G. Tchen, T. jurisdiction of the International Criminal Tierney, J.W. Troeth, J.M. Court (ICC), which was established to put Vanstone, A.E. Watson, J.O.W. an end to impunity for the very worst PAIRS crimes against humanity and, in particular, that the US: Conroy, S.M. Ellison, C.M. Cook, P.F.S. Hill, R.M. (i) maintains its refusal to ratify Faulkner, J.P. Macdonald, I. the Rome Statute, Forshaw, M.G. Knowles, S.C. (ii) has adopted a National Sherry, N.J. Minchin, N.H. Security Strategy which seeks to ensure * denotes teller that its military efforts ‘are not impaired Question agreed to. by the potential for investigations, inquiry, or prosecution by the MILITARY DETENTION: International Criminal Court’, GUANTANAMO BAY (iii) has enacted the American Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- Servicemembers’ Protection Act of tralia) (4.18 p.m.)—I move: 2001, which prohibits US cooperation That the Senate— and intelligence sharing with the ICC, restricts US participation in United

CHAMBER 16538 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Nations’ peacekeeping forces, and FIRST ATOMIC TEST: 50TH authorises the use of military force in ANNIVERSARY order to retrieve US personnel being held by or on behalf of the ICC, Senator WONG (South Australia) (4.20 p.m.)—I move: (iv) has entered into agreements with a number of states under Article 98 That the Senate— of the Rome Statute to prevent the (a) notes: prosecution of American citizens for (i) that 15 October 2003 marks crimes against humanity, the 50th anniversary of the first atomic (v) has suspended $47.6 million in test conducted by the British military aid and $613 000 in military Government in northern South Australia, education programs to 35 of the world’s (ii) that on this day, ‘Totem 1’, a poorest countries, which refused to enter 10 kilotonne atomic bomb, was into Article 98 agreements with it, and detonated at Emu Junction, some 240 (vi) is currently pursuing additional kilometres west of Coober Pedy, Article 98 agreements with other (iii) that the Anangu community nations, including Australia; and received no forewarning of the test, and (d) expresses concern at the US disregard in (iv) that the 1984 Royal Com- these instances for fundamental human mission report concluded that Totem 1 rights and the principles and institutions of was detonated in wind conditions that international law, which we must seek to would produce unacceptable levels of defend in the fight against terrorism. fallout, and that the decision to detonate Question agreed to. failed to take into account the existence HUMAN RIGHTS: CHINA of people at Wallatinna and Welbourn Hill; Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- (b) expresses its concern for those Indigenous tralia) (4.19 p.m.)—I ask that general busi- peoples whose lands and health over ness notice of motion No. 641 standing in generations have been detrimentally my name for today, relating to the People’s affected by this and subsequent atomic Republic of China and Falun Gong practitio- tests conducted in northern South ners, be taken as formal. Australia; Leave not granted. (c) congratulates the Kupa Piti Kungka Tjuta—the Senior Aboriginal Women of Senator STOTT DESPOJA—by leave— Coober Pedy—for their ongoing efforts to I ask through you, Mr Acting Deputy Presi- highlight the experience of their peoples dent, what the problem is. I was not aware affected by these tests; that there was one. Perhaps the whip could (d) condemns the Government for its failure enlighten me and then I might seek leave to to properly dispose of radioactive waste defer this matter rather than proceed with the from atomic tests conducted in the formal suspension of standing orders. Maralinga precinct; and Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (4.19 (e) expresses its continued opposition to the p.m.)—by leave—The Labor Party will be siting of a low-level radioactive waste opposing this motion, and we are keen to repository in South Australia. have the opportunity to get our views on the Question agreed to. record.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16539

SCIENCE MEETS PARLIAMENT confidential source, but that it is Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- unlikely that a full list of those who boarded SIEV X or those who drowned tralia) (4.20 p.m.)—I move: will ever be available; and That the Senate— (b) calls on the Government to produce the (a) notes that: list and any information it possesses as to (i) the annual ‘Science Meets Parliament’ its veracity. event in Canberra is being held on 14 Question agreed to. and 15 October 2003, and IMMIGRATION: VISA APPROVALS (ii) this event provides a valuable opportunity for Members of Parliament Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.22 to meet scientists from their p.m.)—by leave—I move the motion, as electorates; amended: (b) congratulates the Federation of Australian That the Senate condemns this Government for Scientific and Technological Societies for its inhumane decision not to allow the children, organising this event; and Sabda (age 8) and Sara (age 4), of Bali bombing (c) urges all political parties to recognise the victim Endang Sammaki into Australia to visit importance of science to this nation’s their father Ebrahim Sammaki at the Baxter future, economically, socially, culturally detention centre. and environmentally, and to adopt policies Question agreed to. which reflect this fact. NOTICES Question agreed to. Postponement IMMIGRATION: PEOPLE- Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- SMUGGLING tralia) (4.23 p.m.)—by leave—I move: Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.21 That general business notice of motion no. 641 p.m.)—by leave—I move the motion, as standing in my name for today, relating to the amended: People’s Republic of China and Falun Gong prac- That the Senate— titioners, be postponed till the next day of sitting. (a) notes: Question agreed to. (i) the Government’s failure to respond to NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT the two Senate orders of 10 December Senator BARTLETT (Queensland— and 11 December 2002 concerning the Leader of the Australian Democrats) (4.24 People Smuggling Disruption Program and the ineffectual pursuit by p.m.)—I move: Australian justice authorities of the That the Senate— alleged people smuggler Abu Quassey, (a) notes: (ii) that it is 2 years since 142 women, 65 (i) that the United States (US) Govern- men and 146 children perished after ment has 10 600 nuclear warheads, of their boat, referred to as SIEV X, sank, which nearly 8 000 are considered and that the Government has still failed operational, to establish where the vessel sank or (ii) that the Chinese Government has release a list of names of the dead; and approximately 400 nuclear warheads, (iii) that the Minister for Justice and and Customs (Senator Ellison) has revealed (iii) that the US and Chinese Governments that a list was provided to the both signed the Comprehensive Australian Federal Police from a

CHAMBER 16540 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Nuclear Test Ban Treaty on kept the faith and finally been rewarded 24 September 1996 but neither nation with a Premiership victory for their team. has ratified the Treaty; and Question agreed to. (b) calls on the Government to urge the COMMITTEES leaders of the US and China to ratify the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty Legal and Constitutional Legislation as soon as possible. Committee Question agreed to. Meeting COMMITTEES Senator FERRIS (South Australia) (4.25 Economics Legislation Committee p.m.)—At the request of Senator Payne, I move: Extension of Time That the Legal and Constitutional Legislation Senator BRANDIS (Queensland) (4.24 Committee be authorised to hold a public meeting p.m.)—I move: during the sitting of the Senate on Monday, That the time for the presentation of the report 27 October 2003, from 7.30 pm, to take evidence of the Economics Legislation Committee on the for the committee’s inquiry into the provisions of Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Bill the Migration Legislation Amendment (Migration 2003 be extended to 29 October 2003. Agents Integrity Measures) Bill 2003 and the Question agreed to. Migration Agents Registration Application Charge Amendment Bill 2003. SPORT: RUGBY LEAGUE Question agreed to. Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (4.25 MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE p.m.)—At the request of Senator Hutchins, I move: Consumer Debt That the Senate— The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT (a) recognises the important role of the (Senator Cherry)—The President has re- Commonwealth in funding and encour- ceived a letter from Senator George Camp- aging junior and school sport programs; bell proposing that a definite matter of public (b) notes the importance of such programs for importance be submitted to the Senate for the citizens and children of western discussion, namely: Sydney, especially those involved in the Economic growth in Australia is being driven sport of rugby league; by the massive explosion in consumer debt, (c) congratulates the Penrith Panthers Rugby which has led to the following: League team for their victory in the a) increasing Australian household’s vulner- National Rugby League Grand Final held ability to interest rate changes; on Sunday, 5 October 2003, making the b) reducing the productive potential of Panthers Premiers for 2003; Australia’s manufacturing sector; (d) recognises the role that Commonwealth c) jeopardising Australia’s long term rate of support plays in the facilitation of the economic growth; and sport of rugby league; d) a massive increase in levels of foreign debt, (e) notes the importance and significance of increasing our current account deficit, this victory for the people of western increasing Australia’s vulnerability to Sydney; and international monetary changes and reducing (f) congratulates those true believer Panthers our economic sovereignty, and fans who have, through difficult times, the Government has failed to implement policies to generate sustainable economic growth.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16541

I call upon those senators who approve of the 1996 to $55 billion in 2002-03 or from four proposed discussion to rise in their places. per cent to around 11 per cent of disposable More than the number of senators re- income. According to the National Institute quired by the standing orders having risen in of Economic and Industry Research, the their places— build-up of consumer debt explained roughly one-third of Australia’s growth rate between The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— 1996 and 2001 and for the last two years has I understand that informal arrangements have roughly matched the entire growth rate in been made to allocate specific times to each GDP. Let me repeat this. According to one of of the speakers in today’s debate. With the the leading economic institutes, all of Austra- concurrence of the Senate, I shall ask the lia’s growth in the last two years and a third clerks to set the clock accordingly. of the growth between 1996 and 2001 were Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL (New solely due to an unsustainable explosion in South Wales) (4.27 p.m.)—I rise today to consumer debt. This is not due to the housing discuss a matter of major public importance, boom; this is people consuming now and and that is principally the massive explosion paying later. that has occurred in consumer debt in this This has been accompanied by a massive country and the fact that the government has decline in Australia’s savings. The net done nothing to rectify the problem. household savings ratio has fallen from 10 Since 1996 we have witnessed a massive per cent in 1990 to minus 0.5 per cent in explosion in debt in all areas of the Austra- March 2003. That simply means that Austra- lian economy, particularly in foreign debt but lia as a whole is not saving anything. We are also in relation to household debts. The gov- running down our present savings to pay our ernment will claim that this is due to the in- debts. These two circumstances, a massive creasing size of housing loans. Obviously increase in debt coupled with a negative sav- that is a worrying part of the trend. However, ings rate, have some very serious conse- the most significant increase has been in quences, a number of which I will touch on consumer debt, and this has the potential to later. Access Economics stated that Australia increase the vulnerability of Australian fami- is the most interest rate sensitive market in lies, reduce our long-term growth potential the world because we rely so heavily on and reduce our economic sovereignty. The debt—that is, the government’s preferred share of consumer debt to total household economic consultants say that Australian debt has gone from 16 per cent in 1996, families are extremely vulnerable to any in- when this government was elected, to 35 per terest rate changes. The government knows cent in 2003. The rate of total household debt this is a problem, and it has known this since to disposable income has gone from 16 per 1998. In the 1998 Senate estimates, Mr Ted cent in 1990 to an estimated 146 per cent by Evans, the then Secretary to the Treasury, June 2003. said: The majority of this increase has taken Economic problems, almost wherever they occur, place under the economic stewardship of the go to the question of debt—which is why Austra- Prime Minister, John Howard, and the Treas- lian governments have been intent on reducing urer, Peter Costello. The difference between public sector debt to make the government sector income and consumption expenditure, or the less vulnerable. That same advice ought to go to borrowing gap, not including housing pur- private borrowers as well. chases, has increased from $13 billion in

CHAMBER 16542 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

This is the government’s chief economic ad- a 30 per cent plunge in property prices. This viser saying in 1998 that the level of house- is what the government’s own financial hold debt was making families vulnerable watchdog says could happen if interest rates and that the government should do some- go up. thing about it. That was when household Dr John Laker, board member of APRA consumer debt was $61 billion. It is now and Assistant Governor of the Reserve Bank, over $230 billion—I repeat: over $230 bil- had some interesting things to say last week. lion—yet the government has done nothing He said: to address this issue. The recent momentum of the housing market The Reserve Bank has revealed that, last cannot be maintained. Credit growth must inevi- June, credit card debt totalled $24.24 billion, tably return to a more sustainable relationship a jump of $205 million on May’s figure. This with nominal GDP ... debt rose from $6.6 billion in March 1996 to Further: $24.24 billion in June this year, constituting Looking ahead, the main potential source of risk an increase of something like 400 per cent. to financial stability would be a substantial cor- Insolvency and Trustee Services Australia, rection in the housing market, impacting on the ITSA, released statistics last week that balance sheets of authorised deposit taking insti- showed another worrying leap in debt tutions through mortgage defaults. agreements. For the previous year, 4,395 This economic fall will obviously be greater debt agreements were entered into. This is a because of the factors that have driven its significant rise on the preceding year, when growth in the last two years—essentially, 3,805 debt agreements were entered into—a consumer debt. Australia is spending more rise of some 15.5 per cent. These figures than it actually has. If our growth had been mean that, even at the low interest rates we based on an expansion of industries export- currently enjoy, many Australian families are ing manufactured goods, the economy could having trouble meeting their financial com- survive a decline in domestic demand arising mitments. from interest rate increases. Since our indus- Mr Acting Deputy President, what do you tries have been driven by and have re- think will happen when interest rates rise? sponded to domestic demand, this reduction This is not about talking down the economy, in consumption will hit the economy hard. In as Treasurer Costello constantly complains— fact, the economy will be hit harder than although I am sure we will be accused of that many people think, because the nature of the by those on the other side of the chamber economy has been altered by the rise of con- when they get to their feet—but at some sumer debt. point the reality is that interest rates will rise. National Economics has set out three Let me outline to you what will happen then: ways that household debt has adversely af- people will decide that they cannot afford to fected the manufacturing sector. Firstly, the borrow to finance current consumption, so debt explosion has crowded out direct for- they will stop consuming. This will lead to eign investment in manufacturing by forcing an economic downturn and job losses, lead- the interest rates and exchange rates higher ing to a decline in property prices. The Aus- than would otherwise have been the case. tralian Prudential Regulation Authority, Secondly, it has allowed unsustainable APRA, warned last week that home owners growth in domestic demand resources, which holding $14 billion in mortgages could de- would have otherwise been allocated to fault on their repayments under a scenario of

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16543 manufacturing expansion and has been real- promoter of that debt truck, and the Prime located to support the expansion in the con- Minister have managed to double our foreign struction and services sectors. This has re- debt in the seven years from 1996 till 2003. sulted in a permanent loss of capacity and Who will ever forget the coalition partners, exports. Thirdly, this government has begun when they were in opposition, taking around to think it is too easy. The coalition continues this country the debt truck, parading it to believe that high and sustained economic around the nation at that particular time? growth can be achieved by letting the finance And what did Prime Minister Howard say sector drive the economy. This government about the debt truck at that time? In a speech has cut export assistance and industry assis- to the Real Estate Institute on 17 October tance programs and is lazy in its efforts to 1995, he had this to say: attract direct capital inflow. This will come The debt truck has helped heighten in the eyes of back to haunt us when interest rates begin to the Australian community the link between our rise and we can no longer rely on domestic level of overseas debt and the high level of inter- demand to sustain economic growth. est rates ... obviously if one has to borrow money As discussed earlier, this has reduced our from a situation where one is already in debt, potential long-term economic growth rate. when one is heavily mortgaged ... obviously one The debt explosion has led to a massive in- is going to be charged a premium ... The same thing applies for a nation. crease in levels of foreign debt, increasing our current account deficit, increasing Aus- Under the Howard government’s economic tralia’s vulnerability to international mone- management, that debt truck has become a tary changes and reducing our economic road train that is now parked in the driveway sovereignty. This consumer debt has almost of every household in this nation. Where is solely been funded by foreign borrowings, the debt truck? We have not seen it since which have tripled over the seven-year pe- 1996. They obviously have a big garage riod between 1996 and 2003, from approxi- somewhere. They have stuck it in there, the mately $60 billion to $183 billion. This is cobwebs have grown over it and they have clearly a position that is not sustainable. forgotten about the issue. They have conven- iently forgotten all of the things they said to When John Howard was Treasurer back in the Australian public in 1993, 1994 and 1995 1983, the current account deficit was minus about foreign debt, because they cannot sus- 3.5 per cent and net foreign debt was 7.4 per tain their arguments any longer, given that cent. He helped blow out this debt by in- they have managed to double it in the short creasing Commonwealth general government period of seven years. net debt in his years as Treasurer, from one per cent of GDP up to 7.9 per cent of GDP This government is incredibly hypocritical when they were thrown out of office in 1983. when it comes to the most economically jus- And now foreign debt has hit an all-time re- tifiable form of debt—that is, public sector cord under the Howard government. It is debt financed infrastructure. There is nothing $362 billion, and has doubled since Peter wrong with debt if the capital raised is in- Costello became Treasurer in 1996. Who can vested and brings a return—be it social or forget the debt truck? Remember the debt private—that is greater than the sum bor- truck that the Liberal Party toured around rowed and the subsequent interest payments. this country, saying that our foreign debt was Yet this government is obsessed with running at unsustainable levels? I again make the the nation’s budget like a household budget. point that the Treasurer, who was a prime It does not realise the difference between a

CHAMBER 16544 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 family running a household budget on skimming along, on a fair wind at the mo- $30,000 or $40,000 and the federal government, but once that wind turns you watch ment with outlays in the tens of billions of how rapidly the vulnerability of this Austra- dollars every year. Quite frankly, if a CEO lian economy and its consumer debt and for- ran a company with the zero debt mantra of eign debt will be exposed. You watch how this government, they would be laughed out rapidly things will change. We will have an of office. In fact, quite a few of them have in entirely different set of circumstances to deal recent times; although they have taken most with that will be much more difficult to deal of their company’s assets with them on the with in the longer term than were the cir- way. cumstances that arose in the late 1980s and Productive investment financed by debt is the early 1990s. For these reasons the gov- a good thing; it is completely different from ernment should be condemned, and I com- the massive consumer debt we are debating mend this matter of public importance to the in this chamber. We should note that Peter chamber. Abelson, of Applied Economics, has found Senator BRANDIS (Queensland) (4.44 that the most efficient method of funding p.m.)—I have to begin by saying how much urban infrastructure is public sector borrow- I like Senator George Campbell. I like Sena- ing or public sector bonds. The government’s tor George Campbell immensely. One of the access to cheap interest rates, often at half things I like most about Senator George the rates developers would have to pay, Campbell is that he has a terrific sense of makes public sector debt financed infrastruc- humour! Just think of a Labor senator who ture a more efficient option. Peter Abelson was a union heavy before he came into this was quoted as saying: chamber, as was Senator George Campbell, ... for every $100 million of infrastructure, the coming into this chamber and giving this community pays an extra $4 million to $5 million government a lecture on economic manage- a year for the government’s refusal to raise public ment. What a rich sense of irony Senator money to finance the infrastructure. George Campbell must have. But it does not These are serious issues that merit further stop there. The economic issue on which discussion, and they stand in stark contrast to Senator George Campbell decided to mount what we are discussing today, which is this his critique of the Howard government was government’s failure to curb the massive nothing other than the issue of debt. He must explosion in consumer debt which has led to have thought we were having a pretty sleepy an increase in the vulnerability of Australian Wednesday afternoon and that we needed a households to interest rate changes; a reduc- bit of cheap entertainment—to have a Labor tion in the productive potential of Australia’s frontbencher coming into the Senate saying manufacturing sector; a decline in Australia’s that the Howard government ought to be long-term rate of economic growth; and a condemned on the issue of debt. Debt! When massive increase in levels of foreign debt, the Labor Party last had the reins of the increasing our current account deficit, in- Treasury, his party rolled up the public debt creasing Australia’s vulnerability to interna- of this country to $96 billion. After 7½ years tional monetary changes and reducing our of hard work, proven economic management economic sovereignty. and skilful policy settings, the Howard gov- The reality is, Mr Acting Deputy Presi- ernment has reduced the $96 billion debt dent, that the government is sailing along, mountain which was left to us by Senator George Campbell’s party to $30 billion. The

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16545

Howard government has reduced that debt tions in nine years? Did you know that the by more than two-thirds in only 7½ years. index of consumer confidence in September And Senator George Campbell—I have to this year was just shy of the nine-year high give it to you, Senator Campbell; you have posted in July this year? So we have the more front than Mark Foys—comes in here highest business confidence in nine years, and gives us a lecture about debt. the highest consumer confidence in nine Let us run through the economic indica- years, the lowest interest rates in 30 years, tors which tell us what the policy successes the best employment figures in 13½ years, of the Howard government and the economic the best inflation figures in memory—and outcomes delivered by Treasurer Peter Senator George Campbell comes in here and Costello have brought to Australia. First of gives us a lecture about the government’s all, for the second consecutive month, we economic management! But do not just take have unemployment at 5.8 per cent— it from me. Let us hear what the OECD has functional full employment. Unemployment to say. In March 2003, the OECD published with a five in front of it: the old light on the its annual survey of the Australian economy hill aspiration that the Labor Party never de- 2003-04. Let me read to you from the sum- livered on but the Howard government has. mary of its findings—its report card, in ef- That is the lowest unemployment figure for fect—on the record of the Howard govern- 13½ years. The second thing is inflation. The ment: current inflation rate in Australia is 2.7 per Dogged pursuit of structural reforms across a cent. Consistently during the period of the very broad front, and prudent macroeconomic Howard government the inflation rate has policies firmly set in a medium-term framework, been within the target range prescribed by have combined to make the Australian economy the Reserve Bank. The great destroyer of one of the best performers in the OECD, and also one notably resilient to shocks, both internal and prosperity, the great destroyer of jobs— external. Incomes growth has remained brisk, inflation—has been tamed by the Howard employment is expanding, inflation is under con- government. The third thing is interest rates. trol, and public finances are healthy. All the indi- At the moment, the standard variable hous- cations are that the continuing effects of previous ing interest rate in this country is 6.55 per reforms will continue to help the economy to cent. Do you know how long ago it was that combat shocks in the immediate future ... interest rates in this country were that low? It Underpinned by historically low interest rates, was in 1963, when I suspect Senator George rising terms of trade, strong productivity growth, Campbell was still on the Clydeside or wher- a generous subsidy to first-time home buyers and ever he came from. That was the last time high levels of business and consumer confidence, that interest rates in Australia were as low as domestic demand growth has barely been affected they are now. Yet Senator George Campbell by the recent cyclical downturn in most other OECD countries. comes into this chamber and gives us a lecture on debt! That is the report card of the OECD, the assessment by external economists; that is not Let me give you some other indicators, Howard government propaganda. As you not from the government but from surveys would know, being an economist yourself, conducted within the business community. Mr Acting Deputy President Cherry, OECD Did you know, Mr Acting Deputy President, economists are very tough minded. That is that the National Australia Bank index of their appraisal of the Howard government. business conditions in August this year indicated the most favourable business condi-

CHAMBER 16546 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

I should interrupt myself to say that there household income. Today, they hold $6.50 in asis one area that the OECD singled out for sets for every $1.” criticism in the economic management or the He even believes that much of the growth in structure of the Australian economy. Do you levels of credit card debt has been put to produc- know what the OECD said was the largest tive use. “More than 50 per cent of small-business outstanding problem? It was the failure of financing in Australia comes off the credit card. the Howard government to effect sufficient Most of these small-business operators can’t afford an accounts department.” Many people who structural reform in the labour market. We run small businesses are shrewdly using the cen- know why that is: because on 16 consecutive tralised credit card and billing facilities of credit occasions in the last 7½ years the reforms the card companies as a cheap back-office operation. Howard government has been trying to make That is Mr Mark Latham’s view of Senator to free up the labour market have been George Campbell’s argument. So there we blocked in the Senate by Senator George have it. This representative of the political Campbell and his ilk; and, to their shame— party that over 13 years drove this economy because they should have more sense— into the dirt— Senator Murray and the Australian Democ- rats. So the one black mark against the Aus- Senator Tierney—The guilty party! tralian economy, according to the OECD, is Senator BRANDIS—The guilty party— that authored by our good friend Senator that had home interest rates at 17 per cent— George Campbell. comes and lectures us. It is a joke! There is one other statistic I want to tell Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) you about, Mr Acting Deputy President. (4.54 p.m.)—Whoever said that lawyers Senator George Campbell warned us of the were dry and boring! I thank Senator George terrible consequences of household debt. The Campbell for the opportunity to speak on this best measure of the impact of household debt matter of public importance. It does allow on individual households is personal bank- the Australian Democrats to express their ruptcies. In the last year, personal bankrupt- views on the items he draws attention to cies have fallen from approximately 6,000 to concerning the national economy. Before I approximately 5,000. That indicator—it is a remark on my views, I would like to remark lagging indicator—speaks the opposite of the on the views of the Prime Minister. I think message that Senator George Campbell is the Prime Minister deserves the very high trying to give us today. reputation he has for political acumen. He Let me turn to what the shadow Treasurer, has the caution that comes from a great ex- the member for Werriwa, Mr Mark Latham, perience and great knowledge of the political thinks about Senator George Campbell’s ar- world. I recall him frequently saying, both to gument. This is what Mr Latham told Paul his party room and the public at large, that Sheehan, the Sydney Morning Herald col- the worst thing you can do in government is umnist, in an article on 1 April 2002. Allow to start to show the signs of hubris, overcon- me to quote Mr Sheehan: fidence, arrogance and triumphalism. For- give me for saying so, Senator Brandis, but I Interestingly, Latham isn’t worried about debt. Like all good capitalists, he thinks our increased smelt, detected, heard and felt all those at- debt has been put to good use. “Debt is always tributes in your remarks and, indeed, in the relative to assets,” he told me. “In the mid-1980s, remarks of others within the coalition. I think Australians held $4 in assets for every $1 in it is a truism known to all men and women who participate in public affairs, probably

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16547 over the many thousands of years we have by the end of the year and certainly by next been at this political game as a race, that it is year. when you are at your peak, at your most tri- This is unusual, as the last recorded eco- umphant and at the top that you are most at nomic growth figure did show GDP increas- risk. I seem to recall Julius Caesar was mur- ing by only 0.1 per cent in the June quarter, dered at the very height of his powers. I am although I do recognise that was a low point not suggesting anyone should murder this and it is unlikely to continue at that low government—far from it—but I do suggest point. Everyone in the country knows that that Senator George Campbell has drawn over the past few years we have had a mas- attention to some concerns about where the sive boom in housing prices. This boom is economy is at present. unsustainable but has been fuelled by the Obviously, the government are going to government’s policies. These policies have criticise the Labor Party for their record on created as many losers as they have winners. interest rates, and it is a cross they have to For every property owner that has made a bear. That is as inevitable as the sun coming significant capital gain, another family has up in the morning. But, rather than simply been unable to enter the housing market. For going back 10 years and talking about the every happy seller there is a sad buyer who Hawke-Keating era, which is now in the long will find that they have paid too much. The distant past, we should be concerned with the buyer may be left with a massive debt when current economic climate in the country. The the property market cools. Senator Coonan Democrats have been raising the problems today acknowledged that APRA is so con- that we see in Australia’s economy for many cerned that it has assessed whether banks can years, and particularly in the past year. To take a 30 per cent drop in housing prices. put this in perspective, I must acknowledge That is pretty substantial. If there is one con- that at the moment the picture is positive and stant in economic history, it is that booms that the government do deserve credit where always end. credit is due. In particular, they have reduced I mentioned our internationally high inter- public sector debt in a major way and they est rates. It is worth pointing out that another have balanced the books. There are low in- consequence of this is a higher Australian terest rates historically, low inflation and low dollar, particularly against the US dollar, and unemployment—although not low enough. a negative impact on farmers and exporters, Economic growth is reasonable to good, and which is of quite some concern. High interest the government is in surplus for the reasona- rates also impact on the cost of running busi- bly foreseeable future. ness. Presumably, this is why this matter of But, if that is a good story, we have to public importance raised by Senator George look at the flip side, the darker side. Al- Campbell deals with the manufacturing sec- though our interest rates are low by historical tor and the impact of these interest rates. standards, they are high in real terms and Unfortunately, the Labor Party has pro- they are high by international standards. posed no credible alternative economic poli- What the government is failing to tell Austra- cies as yet to deal with these specific issues. lians is that, compared with the rest of the As far as I can tell, the Labor Party, if in developed world, we are paying high interest government, would continue to fuel the rates. And it is worrying that economists, and housing boom. Unfortunately, Mr Latham even more worrying that the Reserve Bank, was overruled when he recognised that nega- are talking about interest rate rises, possibly

CHAMBER 16548 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 tive gearing needed to be reformed. This is a read what the matter of public importance massive cost to the Australian taxpayer. It is was about this afternoon, particularly when I artificially increasing housing market prices. saw at the bottom that the matter was being The Democrats believe that losses from moved by the Labor Party. The whole matter investments, such as shares and property, is about debt. Briefly, I contrast the record of should be quarantined. The losses should not this government in the last seven years with be used to reduce tax on other earned in- the neatly balanced contrast of the previous come. Unfortunately, the Liberals and Labor government in the seven years which pre- are in bed on this issue. ceded that. If we compare our record from A fascinating graph on investment prop- 1996 to 2003 with Labor’s record from 1989 erty debt appeared in the most recent ABS to 1996, there are two periods of seven years statistics on lending finance. The graph where you get an absolutely remarkable con- shows that before 1999 the monthly borrow- trast of a very poorly performing ALP gov- ings for investment properties were fairly ernment with the excellent economic per- stable and hit a peak of $2.2 billion. It is formance that we have had in the last seven now, some four years later, at nearly $6 bil- years under the Howard government. lion a month. It has nearly tripled. The graph I was absolutely amazed that Senator of debt shows that it has steeply risen since George Campbell raised this matter, given 1999. Oddly enough, this coincides with an- the comparisons over those two periods of other time when the Liberals and Labor were the two governments in the areas of con- in bed together. sumer debt, overseas debt and government Labor allowed the government to cut capi- debt. On all these counts, what Labor did tal gains tax in half. The Democrats did not was a massive failure. It took many years, in support that cut at the time, but the Labor the early stages of the Liberal government, to Party supported the coalition’s policy and the turn this situation around. But we now have a result was a $2 billion a year tax cut for situation where all the economic indicators high-income earners. The only people who after seven years are pointing in the right benefit from that are those with investment direction. It is absolutely amazing, given that share portfolios and investment properties track record, that Senator George Campbell and this has helped fuel the housing boom. comes in here on a fishing expedition based The Democrats assert that this is another on speculation that maybe interest rates will reason for the massive increase in debt, be- go up. cause Australians have been taking advan- If you have a look at the period I am tage of this capital gains tax cut by borrow- speaking about, Senator George Campbell, ing excessively to buy property. Only the you will see that interest rates have gone up a Democrats are promoting economic policies few times. They went up in 1994, under your that would cool the property boom, policies government, and then they went up under us that would be economically sound and so- in 2001. On both of those occasions they cially fair that would result in reduced inter- were very weak rises in interest rates. They est rates and allow the government to fund did not last very long and they collapsed the health and education systems. (Time ex- back again. So, even if your proposition is pired) right, you will probably find, given the ex- Senator TIERNEY (New South Wales) cellent economic conditions in Australia, that (5.00 p.m.)—I was rather incredulous when I you have exactly the same scenario. We are in a very different economy, very different

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16549 from the one when you were running the up from 39 per cent to 48 per cent of GDP. trade union movement and when we had Let us have a look at what happened under Paul Keating as the Treasurer. It is a much the Labor Party. Senator George Campbell more robust economy, it is a much more re- forgot to mention that under Labor it went silient economy, and that is largely because from 14 per cent to 39 per cent. Just compare of the policies of this government. those figures. There was a massive increase I turn to three areas which have been indi- under the Labor government. cated as areas of debt that you are concerned The debt servicing ratio is the important about, beginning with consumer debt. We thing that you have to look at here. The debt find at the moment that the growth of house- servicing ratio under us is 8.3 per cent and hold consumption is at an extremely high under Labor it hit 20 per cent. That was very level. It was at 3.6 per cent in June 2003. But worrying. Paul Keating used to stay awake at consumer sentiment—in other words, the night worried about foreign debt. He talked confidence of the consumer—is running 18 about a banana republic. The whole nation per cent above the long-term norm. Why are was shocked and worried about that. It is not consumers so confident? That is the basic an issue at the moment. The reason it is not question. If this is one of the forces that is an issue is that the debt servicing ratio is driving the economy, why are they spending? down from 20 per cent under Labor to eight The reason is that the government have de- per cent. livered on jobs, on wages, on low interest Yet again we have support from Mark rates and on tax reductions. We have had 1.2 Latham. Senator Brandis quoted Mark million jobs created since 1996. We have Latham on another matter. That was a recent interest rates running now at an incredibly quote. I want to go back to 1994 and what low level—Senator Brandis mentioned the Mark Latham had to say in the House about lowest in over 30 years at 6.5 per cent—and foreign debt. He said high foreign debt is a unemployment rates at 5.8 per cent. Real vote of confidence, blaming the coalition for wages have gone up 12.2 per cent in the last a ‘tendency towards xenophobia on issues seven years. That is real growth. That is not such as the current account deficit and for- inflation. Senator George Campbell or the eign debt’. He said: next speaker might want to enlighten us of The truth is that the current account deficit is the the record of the Labor government over 13 equivalent of the capital account inflow. Capital years where there was a two per cent rise. inflow into Australia is a huge vote of confidence We have gone way up. Here are the consum- by international investors in the strength of our ers with the best economic conditions in 13 economy. years and, on top of that, they have real rises They have more confidence in our manage- in their standard of living. Their real wealth ment, Senator George Campbell, than in your is going up, their real income is going up management. What is the measure? Let us and, Senator George Campbell, that is the pick only one measure. The Standard and reason why we now have this boom and why Poor’s rating under us is AAA. Under Labor consumers are spending at such a high level. it was downgraded; under us it was up- Let us move to the second area: foreign graded. That is the sign of great economic debt. Senator George Campbell did make management. much of this in the debate. He said that dur- I do not have time to go into the other ing our time the level of foreign debt has level of debt, which of course is government gone up—and that is quite true; it has gone

CHAMBER 16550 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 debt. That was covered by Senator Brandis past, but the reality is that we are considering very thoroughly. Of course, that is the shin- today’s economy. We are talking about the ing example of good economic management. situation as it is today. I know you do not There was Labor racking up debt at more want to talk about it and you want to believe than $10 billion a year—their budget deficit the spin and the illusions that this Treasurer hit $17 billion in two years. What have we constantly puts on the economy, but you done? We have returned it to surplus. We as a ought to consider these figures and these government have shown good economic issues very seriously. management in terms of household debt, During Treasurer Costello’s seven-year government debt and foreign debt. That is in preside over the Commonwealth Treasury we marked contrast to the record of the Labor have seen the setting of a number of infa- Party. We stand as a shining light in eco- mous records, none of which he, the gov- nomic management, which makes this whole ernment or the Australian people can be matter of public importance a total nonsense. proud of. Under this government we have (Time expired) seen record levels of household debt, record Senator MARSHALL (Victoria) (5.10 levels of credit card debt, a record current p.m.)—I too rise today to speak on this mat- account deficit, record levels of foreign debt ter of public importance. I am amazed at the and record low household savings. All those sensitivity that the government senators have are facts. Senators opposite simply cannot approached this debate with. Your whole deny that those figures are real. They are argument is based on spin and illusion. The mixed into the total economy. It is really a state of this economy is really underpinned concern to me that government senators can by low interest rates. It is really worrying to completely discount those economic indica- me that you do not seem to be in a posi- tors and keep pushing ‘As long as interest tion— rates don’t rise, everything will be fine.’ That Senator Abetz—Through the chair. is a very dangerous situation for us in this country to be in. Senator MARSHALL—through the chair, to acknowledge that there is anything The Treasurer boasts about his record on wrong with this economy, even though both retiring public sector debt, which he has suc- of the speakers for the government today cessfully done by selling off Commonwealth have talked about their strong certainty that assets. However, with the other hand Treas- interest rates won’t rise. They based their urer Costello has been pushing the nation’s whole argument on that premise. We want debt onto individuals everywhere, particu- the parliament to consider and expect the larly families and students. We are now in a government to be considering the state of our situation where even the most miniscule rise economy if the economic situation does in interest rates will have a devastating effect change and interest rates increase. We have on families and individuals everywhere who some very grave concerns about the high are already struggling to make ends meet levels of debt. These are the actual levels under the Howard government. today, and you just simply want to ignore Senator Brandis—What’s your proposal? them. Senator MARSHALL—I will get to that Senator Abetz—Oh, hypocrisy! if I have enough time, Senator Brandis. You Senator MARSHALL—Senator Abetz have been interrupting me a lot already. Let’s interjects. He only wants to talk about the just see how we go. Access Economics have

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16551 stated that Australia is the most interest rate The Reserve Bank’s latest figures on sensitive market in the world because the credit card and charge card debt, released on economy relies so heavily on debt. Tory 18 September this year, showed that Austra- Maguire states in his Daily Telegraph article lian debt in this regard had exceeded $24.58 of 16 September titled ‘When interest knocks billion to July 2003—an increase of $273 hard on debt’s door’: million from the previous month—which It’s the year of the mortgage and thousands of represents another new record figure. That Australian families have borrowed big, not realis- figure is also representative of an over 400 ing how close they are to disaster. per cent increase on the $6.6 billion figure They are living on the financial edge and just a recorded in March 1996. The average few interest rate increases could push them over. amount owing on every credit card or charge The figures speak for themselves. Since 1995 card in Australia today stands at $2,284. the average annual increase in household When one considers that on average each credit in Australia has been 14.2 per cent; in household has just over two credit card or the US it has been eight per cent; Japan, 2.9 charge card accounts, average credit card per cent; and Britain, 7.4 per cent. Malcolm debt per household has reached over $4,600. Farr stated in his Daily Telegraph article of This figure represents a trebling of that re- 1 September titled ‘Price of paradise has corded in June 1996, when the figure stood added interest’: at $1,600. Our future prosperity is being placed on the credit card, and this is clearly We would be international credit card champs were it not for Spain (15.7 per cent). unsustainable for the long term. Reserve Bank figures released on 30 Sep- According to the National Institute of tember reveal that personal non-housing debt Economic and Industry Research, the build- in Australia has reached $94.6 billion, repre- up of consumer debt explained roughly one- senting a staggering increase of almost $10 third of Australia’s growth rate between 1996 billion in the last year alone. In June 1996 and 2001 and, for the last two years, has personal non-housing debt stood at nearly roughly matched the entire growth rate in $48 billion, or $2,614 per person. By August GDP. Our growth is being driven by con- 2003 this figure reached $4,752 per person, sumer debt. So, here we have a Treasurer representing an increase of 82 per cent in prancing into the parliament boasting about only seven years. the nation’s economic growth rate, but he is taking credit for a totally unsatisfactory re- To put this figure in perspective so far as sult. The result: a 0.1 per cent increase in the households are concerned, in June 1996 each June quarter was built primarily on consumer household in Australia owed an average per- and household debt. sonal non-housing debt of $7,079. By August 2003 this figure had reached $12,402 per It is an economy treading water, running household, representing a 75 per cent in- out of breath and being allowed to run on an crease in only seven years. The share of con- unsustainable course which can only lead sumer debt to total household debt has gone one way and to one outcome: a deteriorating from 16 per cent in 1996 to 35 per cent in national economy and a devastating effect on 2003. The rate of total household debt to the household budgets of all ordinary Austra- disposable income has gone from 16 per cent lians and their families. Consumer debt has in 1990 to an estimated 146 per cent by June been almost solely funded by foreign bor- 2003. rowings, which have tripled over the seven years of the Howard government. Consumer

CHAMBER 16552 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 debt has risen from approximately $60 bil- bring to this place this discussion of a matter lion to $183 billion in only seven years. This of public importance. One of my colleagues is clearly not sustainable. The difference be- said to me last week, ‘Nige, don’t worry tween income and consumption expendi- about the economic policy of the Labor ture—not including housing purchases—has Party—they wouldn’t know it if they were increased from $13 billion in 1996 to $55 looking straight at it.’ I think this MPI has billion in 2002-03, or from four per cent to vindicated that today, because they are look- around 11 per cent of disposable income. ing straight at an economic miracle. That is These figures are as startling as they are recognised by not only people in Australia alarming. but also every international pundit in the fi- Moving on to the current account deficit, nancial area. They say, ‘This is where we when John Howard was Treasurer back in need to look to for sustainable economic 1983 the current account deficit was negative management of a country.’ They look to the 3.5 per cent and net foreign debt was 7.4 per coalition in Australia; they look to the wider cent. Mr Howard helped blow this debt out benefits that are afforded to the Australian by increasing Commonwealth general gov- people. The last line of this ridiculous pro- ernment net debt in his years as Treasurer posal reads: from one per cent of GDP to 7.9 per cent of … the Government has failed to implement poli- GDP when they were thrown out of office. cies to generate sustainable economic growth. Now foreign debt has hit an all-time record We have only sustained economic growth at under the Howard government. It currently an average rate of 3.5 per cent since we came stands at $362 billion and has doubled since into office in 1996! We have sustainable Peter Costello became Treasurer. Let me now growth that is the envy of the world. It is just turn to the issue of Australian household sav- a miracle. I am so proud to be part of a gov- ings, where the figures, again, are very wor- ernment who have not even achieved this in rying. buoyant circumstances; we have achieved Senator Abetz interjecting— this, without precedent, in the most difficult international circumstances. We have had the Senator MARSHALL—You ought to be Asian meltdown, where most of our near worried about these figures, Senator Abetz. I neighbours were in a position of critical know you just want to live in this illusory mismanagement. That should have had a world where everything is fine, but try to put huge impact on us, because it certainly did yourself above the spin and illusion and ac- on their other trading neighbours, but no— cept that you ought to treat these issues seri- the Australian economy was resilient because ously. (Time expired) this government had the fiscal knowledge to Senator SCULLION (Northern Territory) make sure that it did not turn down with the (5.20 p.m.)—Speaking of illusions, I am sure rest of those economies. no Australian is under the illusion that this is Then, of course, we had the synchronised anything other than sheer puerile nonsense. downturn of some of the other major coun- To come to this place and accuse John How- tries—the United States, France, Germany ard and the coalition government of some- and Italy. The world shook its head when the how mismanaging economic policy in this American crash came and said: ‘Look out. country is just an affront to every Australian. The Aussie dollar and everything else is go- Senator George Campbell must have drawn ing to go down.’ But suddenly there was the short straw to be the one who had to nothing. There was more confidence in the

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16553 economy because of good fiscal manage- When the other side were in government, ment. We have had a drought. In the last year their mismanagement meant we were one we have had one of the worst droughts in million jobs down. Australia’s history. It should have had a huge As has already been mentioned, we have impact on our economy, but it seems that the productivity increases of some 2.4 per cent economy is so sustainable and so strong that per annum. Under Labor’s economic mis- we will survive even that. There was the ef- management in the 1990s, I can remember fect of Ansett and SARS on the major input when not only my business—which hap- of export dollars into our economy through pened to be a fishing boat—but also the tourism. Then we had the terrible tragedies home of my wife and me was at risk because of international security—Bali and Septem- interest rates were at 17 per cent. We almost ber 11—which could have caused all sorts of lost our home. It was not the cyclones, it was terrible problems with our economy. But we not the difficulty of working in one of the survived. We not only survived, which is an harshest environments of the world; it was A.D. Hope adage; we lived, we thrived and the fact that we were under a Labor govern- we have prospered through those times. Aus- ment that mismanaged the economy that al- tralia should look very proudly at this gov- most sent me to the bottom of the sea. That is ernment, which has managed in those cir- the reason that many Australians in 1996 cumstances to bring such a wonderful array caused the Labor Party to come very justifia- of benefits. But do not take my word for it. bly a very clear second. Over one million Take the word of international pundits in the people were unemployed. They remember media. The London Financial Times in Sep- those circumstances, as they should. They tember said of Australia’s performance: were not allowed to contribute to and par- In fiscal policy, prudence has prevailed, with ticipate in community life as a consequence small budget surpluses persisting for many years. of that mismanagement. A range of structural reforms which continue to have a long-run, dynamising effect on economic On the flip side of that, people ask why performance have given the economy the flexibil- people are spending money. They are spend- ity to withstand shocks such as the global eco- ing more money now because they have a nomic slowdown in 2001. high degree of confidence in the financial You could go on forever with third-party management capacity of the Australian gov- endorsements from economic experts from ernment. Those with any appreciation of debt around the world. They are pointing to us and financial management would understand and saying, ‘Now that is the way forward.’ that the important issue with debt is not the size of the debt but the capacity to service I will continue to look at figures in these the debt. Obviously, we have bigger incomes areas. I have not been in this place long, and and we can afford bigger houses. We have I have to say that I am not much of a statisti- had low interest rates, which is attractive for cian. I would like to convert these figures growth, and I think that underpins the growth into something I understand: 1.2 million new we are having in Australia today. But do not jobs. What I understand from that figure is ask us. Mr Latham, the current shadow that there are young Australians today who Treasurer, said in 1994: are benefiting in a whole range of ways—in how they feel about themselves, their future, So this empty piece of rhetoric about high national debt cannot be sustained once we look at contributing to the community and being part the most important figures, which are those con- of the community because they have a job. cerning debt servicing.

CHAMBER 16554 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

Perhaps he should have picked up the phone I seek leave to incorporate a tabling state- before he said this and had a chat to his then ment in Hansard. Treasurer about this issue, because I am sure Leave granted. he would have enlightened him. Every single The statement read as follows— Australian needs to stand proud and tall and point to the economic management of today Medium-term investment in facilities at RAAF that has allowed the rest of the world to look Base Richmond is required in order to maintain operational capability until 2010, or until the to us and say, ‘That’s the economic miracle long-term future of the base is decided. The esti- that is Australia.’ mated cost of the project is $35 million. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT It is proposed that the reinvestment project will (Senator Hutchins)—Order! The discussion address critical shortcomings in the facilities and on the matter of public importance is con- infrastructure supporting current capability, such cluded. as engineering services and working and training COMMITTEES accommodation. The proposed works comprise: • construction of a new combined headquarters Scrutiny of Bills Committee complex for 36 and 37 Squadrons; Report • construction of new, purpose-designed Me- Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) chanical Equipment Operation and Mainte- (5.26 p.m.)—I present the 12th report of nance Section (MEOMS) facility; 2003 of the Senate Standing Committee for • construction of an extension to the east side the Scrutiny of Bills. In doing so, I highlight of 33 Squadron hangar; the fact that there is no Alert Digest report • upgrade works to 36 and 37 Squadron han- this week. In the five years I have been on gars and workshops; the committee, I think this is the first time • upgrade and rationalisation of high voltage there has been no Alert Digest report—and electricity reticulation; that is for the simple reason that there were • no new bills introduced into the Senate since construction of new ablution facilities to service the western portion of the base; and the committee’s last meeting. I note for the Senate that it is a most unusual occurrence • upgrade and repair of the stormwater drain- that there is no Alert Digest. It is a very un- age system. usual situation. Today we have only a report Having inspected the facilities to be addressed from the Scrutiny of Bills Committee, being under the works proposal, the Committee wished the 12th report of 2003. to ensure that occupational health and safety issues and fire safety measures of an appropriate Ordered that the report be printed. standard would be met across the entire base. The Public Works Committee Department of Defence told the Committee that present funding ensures that these standards are Report met throughout the base. Senator COLBECK (Tasmania) (5.27 Members had concerns about the comfort and p.m.)—On behalf of the parliamentary Joint amenity of personnel. The Committee noted that Standing Committee on Public Works, I pre- in some instances, work areas and associated absent the 11th report of 2003, entitled RAAF lutions or meals areas are to be located in separate Base Richmond reinvestment project, Rich- buildings. The Department of Defence responded mond, NSW. I move: that separate ablutions blocks were common That the Senate take note of the report. throughout the base as collocation can pose con- tamination risks. The Committee recommends

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16555 that, in order to improve the comfort and amenity priorities for Defence accommodation Australia- of personnel, a covered walkway be provided wide. between the existing fuel testing laboratory and Finally, several witnesses raised the issue of the the office building to be constructed under the future of the RAAF Base Richmond. The Com- reinvestment proposal. mittee recommends that a decision on the long- Given the ageing facilities at the base, the Com- term future of RAAF Base Richmond be made as mittee wanted to know whether existing services soon as possible, to ensure the most effective use infrastructure would have the capacity to support of public funds. the proposed development. The Department of Having inspected the base, it is apparent to the Defence emphasised that the proposed work is Committee that the upgrade of facilities at RAAF intended to replace or refurbish existing facilities Base Richmond is essential to maintain opera- and no additional load on services is anticipated. tional capability and provide an appropriate work- The Committee questioned the Department of ing environment for base personnel. The Commit- Defence on two environmental issues. The De- tee therefore recommends that the proposed partment of Defence submission mentioned that RAAF Base Richmond reinvestment project at some structures on the base contain asbestos. The Richmond, NSW, proceed at the estimated cost of Committee was concerned that personnel could $35 million. come into contact with harmful material. The Mr President, I wish to thank the many people Department of Defence assured the Committee that assisted the Committee during the course of that it has a range of procedures in place to pre- inspections and the public hearing in Richmond, vent contact and conducts regular audits. The my fellow Committee members and the secre- Committee also enquired if there had been any tariat staff. chemical spillages at the base affecting the local I commend the Report to the Senate. stormwater system. The Department of Defence told the Committee that incidents had occurred Question agreed to. but were contained by existing procedures. DOCUMENTS According to the Australian Heritage Commis- World Trade Organisation sion, the proposed works will require the demoli- tion of some heritage-listed Bellman Hangars. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT The Department of Defence informed the Com- (Senator Hutchins)—I present a response mittee that negotiations will continue with the from the chief of staff to the Minister for Heritage Commission on this matter. Trade, Mr Vaile, to a resolution of the Senate Recognising the bases’ importance to the local of 16 September 2003 concerning the World economy, the Department of Defence expressed Trade Organisation Ministerial Council. its commitment to promoting opportunities for Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (5.29 businesses in the Hawkesbury region. The De- p.m.)—by leave—I move: partment will divide the project into several parts and conduct briefings on the tendering process to That the Senate take note of the document. assist local enterprises to bid successfully for Senator Carr—Did you say it was from works packages. the chief of staff? While not within the scope of the current pro- Senator O’BRIEN—Yes, Senator Carr; it posal, it was brought to the Committee’s attention is a response from the chief of staff to the that the living-in accommodation at RAAF Base Richmond requires refurbishment. The Commit- minister and not from the minister himself. It tee was therefore interested to learn more about is, I think, a matter that would have senators the Department of Defence’s plans to address perplexed. One would have expected that the deficiencies in this area. The Department ex- minister would have responded to the Senate, plained that; while there are no immediate plans for refurbishment, a current study is investigating

CHAMBER 16556 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 not his chief of staff, but obviously that is the on it have been buffeted for a number of minister’s decision. years by the passing perils of drought and Senator Carr—That would be unprece- crop pests and obviously the perennial prob- dented, wouldn’t it? lems of a corrupted world market and low world prices. Unfortunately, they have also Senator O’BRIEN—I cannot recall a cir- had to bear the blundering of Minister Truss cumstance where a government response to a and the effects of a trade minister who has resolution of this chamber has been dele- obviously been asleep at the wheel. gated to a chief of staff. Perhaps the government will correct me and advise me of the The Cairns Group was established by a circumstances, but I have not experienced it. number of nations under the guidance of La- I would be interested to know what the nor- bor in August 1986. The Cairns Group was mal protocol is. One wonders whether the committed to achieving a fair and market minister has seen the document—I presume oriented agricultural trading system not only he has but, if he has, why did he not sign it? for the good of Australian farmers but also as Perhaps we can be further advised by the a means of contributing to regional stability government as to what the protocol for this and wealth by allowing farmers of develop- chamber is and what they expect of ministers ing nations to have a fair go in world trade. in responding to resolutions of this chamber. With Australia effectively permanently the chair of the Cairns Group, it has been an in- As I have said before in this place, the valuable tool to assist us to meet our trade failure of the Cancun talks is a failure on goals and, through its network of 17 devel- many fronts. It is a failure of the WTO and, oped and developing nations, to understand unfortunately, a failure of the Cairns Group. the objectives of our trading partners better. In the end, it must be seen as a failure of this Therefore, it is unbelievable to me that, as government and, in particular, Minister the chair of the Cairns Group, Mr Vaile was Vaile. It is certainly a black mark against us unaware and therefore unable to halt or guide as the chair country and Minister Vaile as the the emergence of the Group of 22 nations— chair of the Cairns Group. the G22 as they are known. It simply defies Australian farmers, and indeed all Austra- belief when you consider that at least 10 lians, stood to share in increased export Cairns Group members became members of revenues of around $4 billion had the Can- the Group of 22. cun talks been successful in resolving issues In Cancun, the developing nations led by around the so-called three pillars of effective the G22 found themselves pitted against, in world agricultural trade reform: improved particular, the European Union, Japan and market access; a reduction in domestic sup- South Korea—not on an agricultural issue port; and a reduction in, with a view to the but on the so-called Singapore issues. As a elimination of, export subsidies. Australia’s result of the pursuit of these issues by some dairy, beef and mutton producers could have developed nations and the opposition of the been big winners from successful Cancun G22, including those 10 Cairns Group mem- discussions on a protocol arising from the bers, the talks at Cancun failed. Had Minister Doha Round. Another group who could have Vaile not been asleep at the wheel, had he been winners—and for whom the failure of known of the emerging group that would the Cancun talks is an especially bitter eventually become the G22 and had he blow—is the Australian sugar industry. The worked with them, the outcome at Cancun sugar industry and the communities who rely could have been vastly different and poten-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16557 tially vastly more beneficial to Australian tion, relating to the restoration of the fore- farmers and—perhaps as, or more, impor- court scoria. tantly—farmers in the poorer nations of our Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Special region. Minister of State) (5.36 p.m.)—by leave—I The minister has claimed that no result is give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I better than a bad result. At least that seems to shall move: be the view of his chief of staff. My view is That, in accordance with section 5 of the Par- that no result is a bad result for Australian liament Act 1974, the Senate approves the pro- farmers. As I said earlier, I find it noteworthy posal by the Joint House Department to restore that the minister did not view the resolution the Forecourt scoria. to be important enough for him to respond AUSTRALIA-UNITED STATES FREE on his own behalf, but has asked or delegated TRADE AGREEMENT that task to his chief of staff. REGULATION OF GENETICALLY I will finish on this: we have not heard the MODIFIED FOODS end of the issue of the Group of 22 nations. Return to Order We may have seen the end of the Cairns Group as an effective front-line negotiating Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Special force at WTO level. I hope that that is not the Minister of State) (5.37 p.m.)—by leave— case, but unfortunately many commentators This statement is on behalf of the Hon. Tony see that as a reality and that the Cairns Group Abbott, the Minister for Health and Ageing. may be relegated to a group which deals with The order arises from a motion moved by some of the technical issues around trade Senator Nettle on 9 October 2003, as agreed rather than being front-line negotiators. If by the Senate, concerning documents relat- that occurs, unfortunately, that will put Aus- ing to the proposed Australia-US free trade tralia back in the rank, as it were, with a agreement and the regulation of labelling of whole lot of other nations. We would cease genetically modified foods in Australia to be a lead force in WTO negotiations. That and/or the United States. I table a number of obviously has an impact on our international documents relevant to the order, including standing and the sooner the government rec- correspondence between the Department of ognises that, and finds a way of addressing Health and Ageing and private individuals, it, the better. Certainly Labor, when it returns whose names have been removed for reasons to office, will be seeking to address the prob- of privacy. lems which have been created by the lack of With respect to a number of other docu- attention of this administration. ments relevant to the order, I inform the Sen- Question agreed to. ate that the government considers that it would not be in the public interest to disclose PARLIAMENTARY ZONE those on the grounds that it could damage Proposal for Works international relations. It is not in the public The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT interest to release documents that relate to an (Senator Hutchins)—In accordance with the ongoing negotiation between Australia and provisions of the Parliament Act 1974, I pre- the United States. The government is also sent a proposal by the Joint House Depart- claiming public interest immunity for a ment for works within the Parliamentary number of documents prepared for the pur- Zone, together with supporting documenta- pose of the deliberative processes involved

CHAMBER 16558 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 in the functions of the government, as disclo- Senator CARR—I move: sure would be contrary to the public interest. That the Senate take note of the report. TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL The Senate is increasingly facing a contemp- (No. 7) 2003 tuous government: a government that is con- Consideration of House of Representatives temptuous both of the parliament and of the Message Australian people when it comes to provid- Message received from the House of Rep- ing basic but critical information which resentatives returning the Taxation Laws would go towards evidence based policy Amendment Bill (No. 7) 2003, acquainting formulation in this country. We have an in- the Senate that the House has disagreed to creasingly secretive government and an in- the amendments made by the Senate, and creasingly obstructionist government. Le- desiring the reconsideration of the amend- gitimate requests for material from the gov- ments disagreed to by the House. ernment are being rejected at an unprece- dented rate. We now have a record number of Ordered that consideration of the message returns to order that have not been responded no. 428 in Committee of the Whole be made to by this government. This particular matter an order of the day for the next day of sitting. arose from the failure of the government to COMMITTEES respond appropriately to a return to order. On ASIO, ASIS and DSD Committee the Notice Paper at present, there are 46 un- Reference answered returns to order. This is a very significant increase on the numbers of previous The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT years. (Senator Hutchins)—A message has been received from the House of Representatives There is also a record number of unan- transmitting a resolution referring the Intelli- swered questions on notice. At my last count, gence Services Amendment Bill 2003 to the there were some 428 questions outstanding. Parliamentary Joint Committee on ASIO, That is more than double the average for ASIS and DSD for inquiry and report. Cop- every year since 1996. We had an average of ies of the message have been circulated in about 100 outstanding questions in previous the chamber. years; we are now up to 428. Departmental officers are increasingly being instructed by Employment, Workplace Relations and their superiors during Senate estimates to not Education References Committee answer questions on the basis that the mate- Report rial is ‘advice to the minister’. Research re- Senator CARR (Victoria) (5.40 p.m.)—I ports are being doctored and suppressed. present the report of the Senate Employment, Senate committees are being criticised by Workplace Relations and Education Refer- departmental heads for asking too many ences Committee entitled Order for produc- questions. The government has information tion of documents on university finances, that is readily available but refuses to pro- together with documents presented to the vide it, clearly because such information committee. does not suit its immediate political ends. Ordered that the report be printed. The government is behaving in a dishonest, Senator CARR—I seek leave to move a deceitful, duplicitous and arrogant manner. It motion in relation to the report. has contempt for the role and responsibilities of the Senate and for the democratic process Leave granted.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16559 that underpins those. The government does claims were without validity. None of the 15 not want to know about the importance of vice-chancellors who responded to the com- ensuring that there is evidence based policy mittee’s request for information cited com- formulation. mercial-in-confidence as the basis for any There is an increasing reliance within the objection to handing over any documents. government on three excuses for not provid- There is no evidence that universities pro- ing basic information: executive privilege, vided information to DEST on a confidential commercial-in-confidence and the old chest- basis. Information was required by law to be nut of ‘advice to the minister’. Frankly, it is provided; it was a condition of grant. At no not good enough. They have overused and point was there a requirement in legislation worn out the value of those. Increasingly, that that information not be made available these devices are being used to hide basic to the public or to the parliament. Many vice- information which should be made available chancellors pointed out that they were happy to inform the public and assist them in mak- to send the information to the committee. ing judgments about the directions of policy. There were occasions where vice-chancellors In this particular case, university finances did object to this information being made were kept away from public scrutiny at a public on the basis not of commercial-in- time when the government was telling the confidence but of the inaccuracy of the in- country it was embarking upon a major, formation provided by the department itself. open-ended inquiry in which all options were We have a situation here where the de- on the table. It is quite clear that basic infor- partment was seeking to keep information mation, critical to make assessments about secret not because it was commercial-in- the future directions of universities, was confidence but because it was in error. That withheld by the government to prevent in itself is a serious problem if we are relying proper scrutiny of the available options. on such information to make policy. In terms We have a situation where the government of the normal procedures of this chamber, it has sought to frustrate attempts by the Senate is quite clear that there are legitimate to inform itself and to inform the public grounds for not complying with returns to about the financial difficulties that are facing order. Those grounds essentially hinge on the many universities in the country. Requests claim of public interest immunity—that it is for information about the future financial not in the public interest to release that in- health of universities have been refused. formation. That is not the ground on which What happened on that occasion? The Senate the Commonwealth is claiming to reject passed a motion for a return to order for these returns to order; the government is ar- relevant documents, and the government re- guing the information is commercial-in- fused to provide information in response to confidence and therefore should not be made that motion on the spurious grounds that available. There is no evidence to support such documents were commercial-in- that claim. confidence. The Senate committee examined Much of the information that we have those claims, sought responses from the vice- been provided with was available in other chancellors and found that, on many occa- quarters. In fact, all of the information that sions, the vice-chancellors themselves did was sought was made available retrospec- not concur with the government’s claim that tively. The detail of this request went to the these documents were commercial-in- prospective information. It is all very well to confidence. They asserted that the DEST

CHAMBER 16560 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 look in the car rear-vision mirror and see to the public. We now know that three uni- where you have gone; in education, you want versities of the 38 take a quarter of all the fee to know where you are going. When it comes income, over half of the investment income to public policy of this type, that is a critical and 45 per cent of the total profit. There is no piece of information. It is information which level playing field in the system at the mo- the government has readily available. It ment; there are huge winners and losers. This would not cost a great deal more money to is the sort of basic information the govern- provide it. The government failed to do so ment would like to keep to itself. because it was actually worried about what I was the chair of that inquiry and I am the that information would show. chair of the inquiry that is currently under We had a situation where leading re- way with regard to the government’s higher searchers—some inside the government’s education package. In terms of the submis- own department—found evidence that the sions presented to us in both the first inquiry HECS changes that were introduced in 1996 and the current inquiry—and we have had had had a serious detrimental effect on cer- some 19 vice-chancellors, for instance, pre- tain categories of people, particularly work- sent evidence to the committee to date—we ing-class men. That information was sup- have seen considerable concern being expressed. The government attempted to keep pressed. I think that, if people did have a that information secret until such time as grasp of what was actually going on in the pressure was brought to bear by the Senate system, there would be a clearer impression processes. Of course, the officers concerned of the future options that are available to us. were bucketed. They were attacked as being There have been grave concerns expressed methodologically flawed in their approach. by state governments around the country They were denigrated in a whole series of about the regional impacts of the changes ways. But there have been a number of at- that are being proposed at the moment. This tempts made by this government to keep ba- is the sort of information we could present to sic information secret, and we see this as yet people to allow them to examine its detail another example of how that occurs. and to understand the implications of the The Australian university system has been policy options that are being considered. We on a bit of a slide since this government im- have a situation at the moment where the posed its cuts back in 1996. We have seen government is dividing the university system some universities do extremely well, but and the students that are participating in it most are right on the breadline. There are into winners and losers. I seek leave to con- basic questions here about the opportunities tinue my remarks later. for many hundreds of thousands of Austra- Leave granted; debate adjourned. lians to secure an education. Many hundreds BUSINESS of thousands of Australians have a big stake in these matters. Some 47 per cent of all Rearrangement Australians attend university at some point in Senator COONAN (New South Wales— their lives, so it is important that we get basic Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treas- information about the financial health of the urer) (5.51 p.m.)—I move: system. We can see the extent of the damage That the order of consideration of government being imposed on the system in all sorts of business orders of the day for the remainder of ways, yet this government is seeking to pre- today be as follows: vent basic information being made available

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16561

No. 1 Superannuation (Surcharge Rate from the messages that have been returned to Reduction) Amendment Bill 2003, the Senate that the Liberal government in the consideration in committee of the House of Representatives is intent on remov- whole of message no. 421 from the ing the successful amendment to the bill we House of Representatives. are currently discussing—that is, the No. 2 Superannuation (Government Co- amendment to remove the discrimination that contribution for Low Income currently exists for same-sex couples. Earners) Bill 2003, consideration in committee of the whole of As for the package of measures, this mes- message no. 427 from the House sage deals with an exclusive tax cut to apply of Representatives. to high-income earners’ superannuation. No. 3 Superannuation (Government Co- When I refer to high-income earners, I mean contribution for Low Income there is an exclusive tax cut for those who Earners) (Consequential Amend- earn more than $96,000 a year. It is a very ments) Bill 2003, consideration in exclusive tax cut, because 95 per cent of the committee of the whole of Australian work force earn less than $96,000 message no. 420 from the House a year. The Labor Party does not support this of Representatives. exclusive tax cut, and I have made that point No. 5 Petroleum (Submerged Lands) on many occasions both in this chamber and Amendment Bill 2003 and a publicly at various forums. Labor does not related bill. support this tax cut for the fundamental rea- No. 7 Family and Community Services son that it is exclusive: it applies to a very (Closure of Student Financial small group of Australian taxpayers who Supplement Scheme) Bill 2003 and a related bill. have a high income, earning more than $96,000 a year, and it confers an exclusive Question agreed to. and guaranteed benefit to that group of tax- SUPERANNUATION (SURCHARGE payers. Labor has put forward what it con- RATE REDUCTION) AMENDMENT siders to be a fairer and more positive alter- BILL 2003 native proposal: that is, to reduce the Consideration of House of Representatives contributions tax that applies to most, but not Message all, Australians’ superannuation from 15 per Consideration resumed from 9 October. cent to 13 per cent. Labor has presented a positive alternative to the exclusive tax cut Senator COONAN (New South Wales— we are being asked to approve here this Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treas- evening. urer) (5.52 p.m.)—I move: The second message relates to a matching government contribution of up to $1,000 for That the committee does not insist on amend- low-income earners if their income is ment no. 7 to which the House of Representatives has disagreed. $27,500 or less. So, with respect to the other element of the package, if an individual vol- Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (5.52 untarily places $1,000 into superannuation, p.m.)—We are dealing with the first of three they will receive a matching co-contribution messages that relate to a package of two from the government of $1,000, provided measures, and a third amendment that relates their income is less than $27,500. The to the issue of the removal of discrimination matching contribution phases out as incomes with respect to superannuation that currently approach $40,500. The Labor Party support applies to same-sex couples. It is apparent the low-income earner co-contribution. We

CHAMBER 16562 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 have been critical of some of the exaggerated predicted on 5 November 2001, in the run-up claims made about who benefits. We have to the election, that 470,000 people would been critical and we have posed a number of take up children’s superannuation accounts. questions, both to the minister in the Senate To date, I am informed there are about 500 of and in other forums, about precisely who them. However, I must say I do believe that will benefit from this low-income earner co- the appeal of the low-income earner co- contribution and about the numbers. I have contribution will certainly exceed a 500 take- referred to exaggerated claims. I suppose the up rate. I would be confident of that, what- most infamous exaggerated claim was that ever the final figure may be. We have made made by the now minister, Senator Ian an attempt to ensure that we have some real Campbell, who referred to Australians be- picture of the likely benefits to low-income coming millionaires as a result of this low- earners. income earner co-contribution. Not even the There are a couple of potential flaws. The minister, Senator Coonan, would dare to con- low-income earners co-contribution is open firm the millionaire claim made by Senator to middle- and high-income earners, because Ian Campbell, who is now a minister. they can make the contribution on behalf of Labor has focused on trying to ascertain their lower income spouse or partner. So, the approximate number of people who will indirectly, higher income earners can benefit benefit from this low-income earner co- from this program. The Democrats have in- contribution. Whilst the Liberal government, sisted on a measure that will require some the minister representing the Treasurer on analysis of the partner’s income. I have to this occasion and Senator Cherry have been take the credit here—I think it was my sug- somewhat triumphal in their media releases gestion that the Democrats either kindly in- and public comments, it is apparent that up corporated into the legislation or insisted the to four and a half million Australians who government insert into the legislation. could benefit— There is another reason why the Labor Senator Cherry—They could! Party supports the low-income earner’s co- Senator SHERRY—I will take that inter- contribution: it was a Labor idea. The co- jection, Senator Cherry. contribution was a Labor policy initiative. Labor proposed a three per cent government Senator Cherry—They are eligible. co-contribution in 1995, which this govern- Senator SHERRY—They are eligible; ment committed itself to keep and then that is right. It is apparent that the reality is dropped in 1997. Labor’s alternative pro- very different. On the government’s costings posal of a three per cent government co- and projections, it is some 450,000 or contribution, which would have applied to all 460,000 who will benefit. Despite those Australian superannuation and not just to magic words of ‘up to’ and ‘could benefit’, some 450,000 or 460,000, would have deliv- the reality is very different. Indeed, the fig- ered an additional $4.5 billion into superan- ure is remarkably close to the govern- nuation once it was fully operational, ment’s— whereas the Democrat-Liberal government Senator Cherry interjecting— deal delivers some $215 million—I am using Senator SHERRY—I was going to draw the 2007-08 year here—in additional super- the analogy with children’s superannuation annuation contributions. Whilst we appreci- accounts, Senator Cherry. This government ate the government copying a Labor policy—one that the government had dumped—

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16563 and then coming back and presenting a low- greater pressure on this Liberal government income earner’s co-contribution, it is a very to agree to remove the discrimination against much watered down version. There is a con- same-sex couples. trast in that there is a guaranteed tax cut for Labor hoped the government would have high-income earners—all high-income earn- considered the amendments by the Democ- ers get the tax cut—whereas approximately rats, the Greens and the Labor Party that one in 10 low-income earners will receive were successfully moved in this place, and the government co-contribution. Labor does we hoped that the government would have not regard that as balanced. reconsidered its position in the time we have Let me come to the final issue, which is had since this matter was last considered in the successful Labor amendment to this bill the Senate. I understand that the government we are considering, which the Liberal gov- has not reconsidered its position—it has not ernment rejected in the House of Representa- even discussed it that I am aware of—and it tives—that is, to amend the general superan- has not taken the issue back to cabinet. Sena- nuation law to remove the discrimination tor Coonan may be able to present us with against same-sex couples. I am pleased that, some up-to-date information on the matter, before this matter was referred to the other but the government has point-blank refused. place, the Senate voted to support Labor’s The Democrats might have some additional amendment. I acknowledge likewise that information. I will listen with interest. I un- Labor supported the amendment moved by derstand they requested some sort of state- Senator Brown and the amendment moved ment from Senator Coonan. I will be inter- by the Australian Democrats on the same ested to see if we get it and, if so, in what issue. I have been asked, quite reasonably, form. why Labor have on this occasion chosen to Labor saw this as an opportunity to press move such an amendment and support it this issue of equal rights for same-sex cou- when, on previous occasions, the Australian ples with respect to superannuation. Labor Democrats and/or Senator Brown have has taken a view that there is a fundamental moved an amendment along similar lines, if issue of human rights here with respect to not identical ones, and the Labor Party have same-sex couples. In addition to that, there is not supported it. We have taken a position the fundamental issue of property rights. Su- that this issue of same-sex couples and superannuation in this country is the individual perannuation must be dealt with. It must be property right of Australians, subject to trus- resolved. The discrimination must be re- tee supervision, management et cetera. The moved. It is very difficult to do that when issues of the discrimination that apply to this government—which is clearly intracta- same-sex couples and superannuation have ble, stubborn and determined to avoid this been well canvassed in the Senate. The ac- issue and remove the discrimination—has a tual details of that discrimination with re- majority in the House of Representatives. spect to death and disability, insurance, es- However, on this occasion, Labor have taken tates, defined benefits and reversionary bene- the approach that we need to try to force this fits have been well canvassed, and I do not issue—to get this Liberal government to deal intend to go into them in detail today. with this issue of removing the discrimina- I did watch the debate in the House of tion against same-sex couples. This pre- Representatives, particularly the comments sented one of those few opportunities where by the new minister, Mr Ross Cameron, who realistically we are in a position to put much

CHAMBER 16564 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 claimed in his speech that there is a forth- geted group of taxpayers to boost their re- coming bill on choice of fund legislation. He tirement savings, and it supported the adop- took the opportunity to highlight that the tion of the government’s co-contribution bill. government’s choice of fund legislation, Not long ago, we heard Mr Latham suggest a which is due to be debated in this parliamen- similar sort of approach: that low-income tary sitting, would allow same-sex couples to people should be given savings money—not choose a superannuation fund that best for superannuation but for savings—on a serves their needs—that is, a fund with gov- very much more generous basis. erning rules that allow payments to same-sex Which arm of the Labor Party is really couples. It is absolute crap. It is absolute talking? One arm of the Labor Party, its nonsense. shadow Treasurer, is putting forward a sug- Senator Troeth—Mr Acting Deputy gestion that low-income earners need gov- President, I rise on a point of order— ernment assistance to boost their savings. We Senator SHERRY—I withdraw that ex- have a very generous measure, within limits, pression. This is a fundamentally untrue in the Superannuation (Surcharge Rate Re- claim by Mr Cameron in the other place. It is duction) Amendment Bill 2003, for low- absolute nonsense. His claim that the gov- income earners in particular, for amounts to ernment’s so-called choice of fund legisla- go into superannuation. Senator Sherry had tion overcomes the fundamental discrimina- no objection to that; it was not a part of his tion in law against same-sex couples is minority report. There was a minority report grossly misleading. It is not the superannua- attached to certain features of this bill but tion funds that are at the heart of the prob- that was not one of them. lem; it is the law that the superannuation I remind the Senate that this exclusive tax funds are required to meet that is at the heart cut, which we spent about 10 minutes talking of the problem. It is another example of this about—to ‘a very exclusive group’, he said; Liberal government refusing to deal with the yes, it is a small group—addressed some- issue of removing discrimination against thing that should never have been there in same-sex couples and refusing to acknowl- the first place. It was put there to overcome a edge the importance of this amendment. black hole of $10 billion created by the La- (Time expired) bor Party before it left office. To ensure that Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (6.07 a good cross-section of the community suf- p.m.)—We all know that the Labor Party is fered in the claw-back required to bring it suddenly against co-contributions and is back into surplus, the surcharge was intro- against a reduction in the surcharge, small duced. I have always had problems with it. though it may be. It is interesting that, in But here we have the first opportunity to re- order to try to get some additional support duce a front-end contribution tax and it looks for its opposition, the Labor Party has joined as though it will be defeated. It is a small with some minority senators in using the amount, and the Liberal-National Party coa- same-sex couples debate to try to destroy this lition have gone a long way in meeting the legislation. Senator Sherry, I remember that demands of opposition senators in reducing you agreed during the hearings of the Senate the benefit. I applaud them for that. They cut Select Committee on Superannuation that the a deal with the government—in other words, committee regarded the co-contribution as a reduce the amount of the surcharge and in- very important first step in assisting a tar- crease the value of the contributions tax by extending the amount up to $40,000 before it

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16565 cuts out. I applaud that because a lot of peo- saw some benefit, some progress, in a reduc- ple will be affected by it, but it would be a tion in the surcharge as a first step. It was a pity if this whole thing were to be scuttled on first step, albeit such a small step that there the issue of same-sex couples. would be an indication to future govern- Quite a number of years ago, honourable ments that this should be continued along the senators will recall, our Senate committee line. It would be a first step in the reduction brought down a report that did see some in- of front-end taxes. We do not like front-end justice in this issue. But what I am concerned taxes because, across the spectrum, front-end about is that the problem you are trying to taxes take off, in terms of compounding, the solve is wider than just the same-sex issue final benefit. Tax the final benefit—that is debate. I think it would be a travesty of jus- what everybody wants. In a sense the tice if we were to pass this sort of amend- Keating government conned us all, with a ment that gives exclusivity to this particular few exceptions, when it introduced the con- group but that excludes other desirable peo- cept of front-end taxes. Now the very people ple. I will give you a simple example: there who introduced that concept are opposing are two sisters, one a professional going out this first step to reduce that front-end tax. to work and earning reasonable money and The submissions say that it is better to take a the other who stays at home to look after reduction now in what has proved to be a mum in her old age. The sister who stays at generally unpopular tax, a tax that people home has never been in the work force. Mum acknowledge is costly to collect and is un- suddenly dies and there are two sisters living constitutional because it is not universal— alone. That situation does not come under the there are exceptions now, as court cases have same-sex couples banner. Don’t you think shown—rather than to debate the merits that there is an injustice in the sense that there is are not included in the bill. a denial of opportunity for superannuation The government has listened to the call funds to flow through that sort of channel? and made the co-contribution more generous. This issue really needs to be brought back FitzGerald and others have demonstrated under a banner that is not identified as a quite convincingly that this concept of co- same-sex issue but as a justice issue, encom- contribution is the best way to go to help passing all these sorts of people. I say that lower-income earners. To the credit of some we should look at this issue in a separate and of the opposition parties, the government has wider context, rather than in narrow confines agreed to extend the threshold in the interests where there will be sections of the commu- of getting the bill through. We have now had nity saying, ‘We can’t agree with this,’ sim- sufficient debate and it is time to get the bill ply because it is seen to be primarily directed through so that people who are in need can to a particular group. I believe it will be un- benefit from the legislation. fortunate if we kill a bill that will give a lot This is an important point. Getting rid of of benefit to people, because there is a lot the surcharge, in a very small way, over three interest out there. years is an equity measure. It is not a big Members of the committee, including amount but at least it is a signal of the inten- Senator Cherry and Senator Sherry, would be tion to remove it. To remove it in one lump aware that the majority of evidence that we sum, I agree, is too much. For many people, received when this issue was taken to an in- superannuation is not a particularly attractive quiry in the outside world was that people option because superannuation tax rates are significantly higher than the ordinary per-

CHAMBER 16566 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 sonal tax rates. Why should superannuation It is important to get rid of front-end vehicles be taxed at a rate which is higher taxes, and a small reduction of the surcharge than the top marginal tax rate that applies to is not a bad first step in the right direction. individuals? There is another side of the jus- Over time, as budgets permit, we would hope tice coin. You can say that they can afford it, that successive governments will pick this up but you have to bring some reasonable equal- in relation to the general contribution tax and ity across the spectrum of tax and superan- have taxes at the end, when people collect, as nuation laws. The surcharge has been criti- part of the general simplification of taxation cised, particularly when it applies to women laws. These sorts of measures complicate the who have had broken working patterns. system. We have to begin taking the compli- When in later years they try to make up their cations out of superannuation and, as a first superannuation, the contribution fund en- step, this is the way to go. Let us not deny ables them to provide for a dignified and that opportunity of moving forward. self-sufficient retirement—and that is what Senator CHERRY (Queensland) (6.19 superannuation is all about. p.m.)—I rise to respond to the two previous Where is the feminist movement within speakers, who raised some interesting points. the ALP? They are not querying people like Firstly, Senator Watson is dead right: we Senator Sherry who are leading the superan- need to go further than simply the same-sex nuation debate. People like Mr Latham are issue, although discrimination against same- saying that we have to increase savings, but sex couples is part of the discrimination in a Senator Sherry says, ‘But not in superannua- range of categories. I have in front of me an tion.’ Where is the consistency of your pol- Administrative Appeals Tribunal case, icy, other than the policy of outright opposi- [2000] AATA 8, 13 January 2000, concerning tion? I understand where Senator Greig is a son in a very close-knit family who died. coming from. There is a solution, but the The evidence says that the son lived at home solution has to be seen to be wider than just with his parents and helped in the delicates- being directed at the very narrow corridor sen on the weekend. When he died, the par- that you are addressing. The community will ents were taxed on his superannuation when not appreciate what you are trying to do or, if it came back to them. In that case, the argu- the government gives in, where it is seen to ment was that, even though the AAT ac- be giving in on this matter. knowledged that the family had been getting The issue has to be debated and clarified the support of their son working in the shop in a better way than barnstorming at this and the emotional support of him living at time. We know that the Labor Party does not home with them, he was not financially sup- want either and they see this as a measure for porting the family; in fact, the evidence was scuttling it. I think that is unfortunate. I say the other way. His marriage had broken up, to the other senators: look at it in the clear he had moved back home to his parents’ light of day, on a proper occasion, but, for house and his flat was being sold. The AAT heaven’s sake, let this get through because it decision says: is a signal of the importance of beginning to 15. In the present case there is no suggestion that get rid of the surcharge which Senator Sherry the applicants were in any sense financially de- fought for years and years—now we have pendent on the deceased. Indeed, the evidence is seen a big U-turn. A lot of people worry that for almost all of his life the deceased relied in about the credibility of politicians. varying degrees upon the generosity of the applicants—

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16567 the parents— we are taxing death benefits in desperate for his financial support. The Tribunal under- family situations where someone has lost a stands that the dependence asserted by the appli- loved one. We are taxing them and putting cants is one of physical support helping out with them through the angst of having to face a the running and management of the family busi- taxing situation if they cannot prove this ness. economic definition of financial dependency. 16. However, the evidence does not support a A relationship is more than just finance. conclusion that either applicant relied to any sig- Finance is important, but a relationship is nificant extent on the profits of the family delica- tessen business for their financial survival. much more than just financial dependency. There is emotional dependency. There is, in Therefore, as financial dependence was not this case, the dependency of helping in a found, the family was taxed. What we object family business. There is a whole range of to is the notion that superannuation benefits different things that we need to recognise. I should be taxed when they are passing within will deal with the merits of the amendments a family or a same-sex relationship or any of we are moving when we come to the third the myriad of different relationships that ex- House of Representatives message, but cer- ist out there in modern Australia. That is why tainly the Democrats are of the view that the amendments which the Democrats have Senator Watson has raised very strong points. moved to a subsequent bill are superior to I think it is time that the government as a the ones which Senator Sherry has moved to whole took on board the view that we do this bill—our amendments dealt with not just need to deal with the issue of the categories the same-sex issue but also with the broader that fall outside this narrow law put in place category of interdependency and broader by the Labor government in 1992. I think it relationships. is time we as a Senate and as a parliament I note that, in the message that has come reviewed it and that we actually deal with back from the House of Representatives, the these discriminations. government has sought to argue: The point is that we should not be taxing A dependant is ordinarily interpreted to include death benefits that are shifting within a close, those partly financially dependent or financially interdependent or family relationship. We inter-dependent with the member. Therefore, should not be dictating by law whom you same-sex partners can usually access the death can and cannot leave your superannuation to. benefits of their partner where the dependency test is met and the House considers that this The government talks at various times of the amendment is not necessary. importance of choice—choice when a person is alive—but I think that choice should ex- The decision that I read out is case law and it tend to when people are dead as well. I think is an example of the courts showing that that it is a very important principle. That is one of whole notion of financial dependency has its the reasons why the amendments we have limits. To rely purely on financial depend- moved to the Superannuation (Government ency is to downplay the important emotional Co-contribution for Low Income Earners) dependency or the important other physical (Consequential Amendments) Bill deal with support that can exist within a same-sex cou- these issues in a very comprehensive way. I ple, a family relationship or a whole range of thank Senator Watson for his comments, be- different circumstances. It is important that cause I think they are important in acknowl- the Senate acknowledge that our law does edging the need for us to go further and deal have a problem. The problem arises because with all different types of relationships.

CHAMBER 16568 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

I acknowledge that partial dependency is income people to middle-income people. We picked up in the current law. There is plenty had this debate earlier. of case law in the Superannuation Com- The Democrats have got the government plaints Tribunal that deals with partial de- to agree—and I am very pleased with the pendency. When you look at cases like underlying package we have reached agree- Faull’s case, the courts have tried to stretch it ment on—to transferring $460 million from as far as they possibly can to ensure that the the forward estimates on a surcharge cut to a tax impost on a family situation of a super- matching co-contribution for low-income annuation benefit passing through is not people. The result is that two-thirds of the picked up. The High Court, the Supreme funding of this package goes to people earn- Court, the Federal Court, the AAT and the ing under $40,000 a year. There are 60 per Superannuation Complaints Tribunal have cent of Australians earning under $40,000 a stretched this law as far as they can, but it year. We can argue until the cows come still falls short because you still have to home about how many of those will pick up prove an element of financial dependency to the package. I was very delighted with—and get through the law. And that is the problem. I quoted it earlier in the debate—the research Occasionally, various people in this place at the Chifley Research Centre which sug- criticise judges and say that they should not gested that pick-up rates could be very high. be stretching the law, but judges have com- The evidence from overseas is that these passionate times. When you are dealing with sorts of voluntary savings measures do in a situation where you have a death benefit fact encourage people to save. that should be passed on to someone else and We had a debate on a matter of public im- the government is going to tax that because portance earlier put forward by Senator you cannot prove financial dependence, it is George Campbell, which I had the joy to really criminal and really appalling to have chair, that referred to the desperate need for that as a legal outcome. It is something that I Australia to increase its household savings. think this parliament has to fix. That is one Why don’t we encourage people to save by of the debates we need to have. giving them a boost when they save? That is Coming back to the package as a whole, what Mark Latham was arguing when he was and the wonderful speech that Senator talking about his matched savings accounts Sherry treated us to earlier about the sur- and that is pretty much what George Camp- charge package, I remind the chamber that bell was saying today. We all need to save the Labor Party’s policy is for a two per cent more. That is what this package is about: tax cut across the board in superannuation encouraging people to save more. contributions. Under the package we are I cannot see why the Labor Party would dealing with today, in this financial year the want to take the money out of that savings cut to the surcharge is half a per cent, next incentive and give it to middle-income peo- year it is 1½ per cent and the year after that it ple as a tax cut on the superannuation contri- is 2½ per cent. The benefit after the end of bution they are already making compulsorily. three years under this package vis-a-vis La- That does nothing to increase national sav- bor’s is the grand total of half a per cent. ings. That is what we are arguing about. What the Labor Party’s package does vis-a-vis the Senator Sherry—And voluntarily. package we have negotiated with the gov- Senator CHERRY—And voluntarily as ernment is that it transfers money from low- well, but the vast bulk of it will be a dead

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16569 weight loss because it will be going on SG in the OECD with respect to our national contributions which they already were mak- savings rate. ing. It is a dead weight loss. At least under I cannot see why we cannot ensure this this proposal we are putting up, if they save package moves through because it is such a more they will get more. We will actually get good and important package. I cannot see more money into the accounts of low-income why we cannot also deal with the issue of people. The key thing about this package is discrimination because it is a fundamentally that the vast bulk of the benefit goes to peo- important issue. Why are we in a situation ple on lower incomes. Under Labor’s pro- where, when we are dealing with death bene- posal—the two per cent across-the-board tax fits, we are putting death taxes on death cut—the vast bulk of the benefit goes to benefits passing within family relationships? people on above average incomes. That is Why are we as a parliament doing that? The why the Democrats are very proud to defend parliament does need to deal with that issue this package, because we are delivering a at some point. The Democrats are very keen very significant benefit to low-income peo- to see the government’s response to that later ple at the bottom end. We will also continue in this debate. We need to find a way through to urge the government to move on this all of this to ensure that we get this very whole issue of recognising same sex interde- good package for low-income people. We pendent relationships, but I will deal with need to get these incentives in place to en- those issues when we deal with those mes- courage people to save and we need to deal sages later. with those issues that Senator George Camp- The point I make at this stage is that this bell was talking about today—about getting package is a good package. It is a package our national household savings rate up. We which has the significant potential to expand need to ensure that when people do save they the savings pool in Australia and to encour- can have choice about what happens to their age people to save. From that point of view, savings when they die. We need to deal with it is worth doing. It is very much worth do- that in the SI(S) Act and the ITAA as well. ing, because 90 per cent of the benefit in this It is interesting to note, when trawling financial year goes to low-income people through the various writings of the Superan- and 70 per cent of the benefit in the second nuation Complaints Tribunal, that it has pro- year goes to low-income people. Over the duced a very long paper—a very good pa- course of four years, 66 per cent of the bene- per—on the legal issues on death benefits. I fit goes to low-income people. That is as- commend that paper to senators. It deals with suming a low take-up rate. That is assuming a whole range of issues that have come out the same number of people pick up this of the 500 cases that the SCT has dealt with benefit who currently pick up the superannu- in respect of death benefits. Some of the is- ation low-income earners rebate. If any peo- sues that come out of that show the enor- ple pick it up over and above the current mous complexity of this particular area. But low-income earners rebate pick-up rate, then it keeps coming back time and time again to we will see even more of that money going the issue of financial dependency and the to low-income people. That is an even better need to improve powers of financial depend- outcome for Australia. It means people are ency. saving more. We are doing something about I think families in Australia are about the fact that we are now the wooden spooner more than financial dependency. I think rela-

CHAMBER 16570 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 tionships in Australia are about more than modest wage. I take on board what he said. financial dependency. I think they are about Unfortunately, in my case, the same thing that physical support of running a delicates- happened when my son passed away. The sen on the weekend. They are about the emo- money was taxed when he passed it on to his tional support of a same-sex couple as well nephew. I thought that was a bit rough at the as of a heterosexual couple. They are about time. I hope this legislation gets the support sisters living together and providing support, of the Democrats and that we do not get as Senator Watson suggested. They are about hung up on an issue that we would find, par- a whole range of things. I think it is time we ticularly in the Nationals, very difficult to as a parliament put value on that and ensure support. that the value we place on these relationships Senator Sherry—Property rights are dif- is not just a financial one but rather an emo- ficult for the Nationals! tional one, a physical one, thereby recognis- Senator BOSWELL—No, it is not prop- ing all the different groups which make up erty rights. It is the other thing that I am re- our country. ferring to and you know it quite well—same- This has been a very interesting debate sex couples. We would find it very difficult right from the very beginning. I want to pay to support it. I plead with the Democrats. tribute to the government’s preparedness to This bill will assist low-income families and amend this package to date to deal with the will help people who have family when a issue of low-income earners and to ensure fairly low sum of money gets transferred those benefits flow. We need to ensure those from different areas within that family that benefits are capable now of flowing not just requires 30 per cent or 40 per cent tax on it. I during someone’s life but at the end of know it is very difficult. I have had quite a someone’s life as well. That is an issue I do number of submissions made to me on this hope the government is prepared to address matter, where people have had a son or at the appropriate point. As other people will daughter die and they try to pass the money want to speak tonight, I will leave my com- on to their sister, brother or nephew and find ments there. But, from our point of view, I that half of it disappears in taxation. would note that the amendments the Democ- Senator Cherry—It has to be fixed. rats have moved to the consequential amendments bill do deal with interdepen- Senator BOSWELL—I hope it will be dency as well as same-sex couples, which fixed. As I say, I have had personal experi- makes them superior to the amendments we ence of it, and it must happen time and time are discussing here. again. It seems to me that you have put so much work, effort and time into this bill. We Senator BOSWELL (Queensland— all would like it to go through, for all the Leader of the National Party of Australia in reasons that you enunciated in your speech. I the Senate) (6.33 p.m.)—I come into this have just done a quick exercise on my per- debate late, but I listened very carefully to sonal self-interest—you know it is racing, Senator Cherry and it seems to me that what and now it is trying—but it will not make he is suggesting with respect to these super- much difference to me. I think it is about $80 annuation bills is absolutely correct. It seems a year to people on our level of income. to me that the majority of the money that is allowed on these co-contributions will flow Senator Sherry—That’s not right. It is a to people earning up to $40,000, which is not lot more than that. In our fund it is, mate! a considerable wage. In fact, it is a fairly Senator BOSWELL—Is it?

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16571

Senator Sherry—The first year. Senator Sherry—They’re not voting for Senator BOSWELL—I have just got the National Party; we know that. some advice. On the first year, I was told it Senator BOSWELL—They may not vote was $80. for the National Party, but they are certainly Senator Sherry—The first year. not going to vote for the Labor Party. They are looking elsewhere. That is why you are Senator BOSWELL—Yes, $80 in the in a terrible situation where the Greens are first year. I am looking for advice on that. I gradually catching up on you. You are going am trying to say that it is not going to help to lose those inner city seats because what is the big end of town; it is going to help the going to happen—and you have seen it so very small end of town. I, for the life of me, regularly—is the Democrats will get a few cannot see why the Labor Party would not votes, the National-Liberal Party will get a support it. But I have a great deal of diffi- few votes and by the time the votes are par- culty fathoming the Labor Party on many leyed up they will go past the Labor Party. If issues and this one is just another mystery to you keep neglecting your blue-collar work- me. They say they are the working man’s ers, then you are going to lose seats. They friend, they stand up for the blue-collar are saying to you, ‘Listen to us, we need workers and they support the battlers, yet your help,’ and you are ignoring them all the when the $40,000-a-year battlers are offered time, and consequently you are going to lose something they walk away from it. That is seats. You escaped by the skin of your teeth totally wrong. The people down at the pub in Melbourne Ports and you lost a by- who spend all their money letting their three election to the Greens in a safe Labor seat. or four kids play football or basketball do not have any real excess income to put away. You do not seem to be able to adjust. You Then this bill comes along, supported by the put one hand in the fan and lose five fingers Democrats and the National and Liberal par- and then you immediately put the other hand ties. The Labor Party stand at the polling in the fan and lose five fingers and you say, booth and say they support the worker, but ‘What happened?’ If that is the way the La- they do not support the worker. That is bor Party want to go, that is the way they probably why the worker does not support will go. Obviously you are not going to take them now. That is probably why the workers any notice of me. I have seen it down at the and the Howard battlers now vote for the polling booth. Let me repeat this anecdote. I Liberal and National parties. live in a working-class area; in fact, it has never been held by anyone except the Labor One thing raised at the National Party Party for the last 100 years. The Nationals conference was the cliche ‘insanity is doing won it once in 1974, but it is basically a very the same thing the same way and expecting a hard-core Labor seat. When we had the ref- different result’. You are doing the same erendum on the Constitution my wife came thing time and time again. You are neglecting back from the polling booth and said, ‘I have your blue-collar workers, and they are ne- never had a better day in my life. It was an glecting you. You have been doing it for the absolutely fantastic day because, as I was last three elections, and you are going to do handing out the cards, all the old Labor vot- it again and you are going to get the same ers came and said, “Good on you, girlie, you result. Those people are going to vote for the are doing a great thing,” and then they Greens, the Democrats or the Liberal Party; walked over and abused the Labor Party.’ they are not going to vote for you. She said that had never happened to her be-

CHAMBER 16572 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 fore. I am just saying that you keep losing have done a pretty good job and we are pre- contact with your basic workers. I might add pared to go along with you. So let us not fall that it got so bad that the Labor guys ran up at the last hurdle and cut the worker’s nose the white flag at about 12 o’clock and went off despite our face because of our philoso- home, because they were sick of getting phical differences. That is not what we are abused. Anyhow, it made my wife’s day very here for. happy because she said that normally she We are here to provide the best legislation was on the other end of the abuse but this for the majority of the people, and you—the day was a terrific day because the Labor Democrats and the National and Liberal par- Party came down and congratulated her on ties together—have done that. The Labor standing up for their beliefs. Party then come in and say, ‘We’re not going This is a good bill. I have just come into it to do that, because there’s a philosophical at the end. From my own personal experi- difference.’ Of course we have our difference and representations I have had from ences. We represent different people with other people—not a lot; maybe 10 or 12 over different ideas. That is part of parliament. We 20 years—where this has happened, where a come in and represent those people, and your sister has died and tried to pass it on to an- constituency is different from mine. But it is other sister, brother or nephew, there has for those reasons we should debate, for in- been a tax on it. stance, whether we believe in same-sex cou- Senator Sherry—Are you going to vote ples or something like that. We should not for the Democrat amendment on the third put a gun at the worker’s head and say, message then? ‘You’re going to get shot because there was a philosophical difference.’ Senator BOSWELL—I will not be voting for it. I am trying to be honest about it. I The bill is a good one. Your amendments cannot vote for that. Our constituency could have been accepted. I hope we can progress not support it—and I understand you have a this, because there is not much in it at the different constituency—and we have to rep- moment. As I say, I went over and checked resent our constituency. I do not want to and—just as a rule of thumb—ran it through bring that into this debate. various income groups. It did not seem to me that there would be much in it for the big end Senator Watson—It just needs rebadging. of town. It seemed to me that all the bene- Senator BOSWELL—Maybe it needs fits—or 66 per cent of the benefits—would rebadging or something. As Senator Watson flow to those I would call the battlers. Sena- has said, it would be hard for us to do it. I tor Watson is an expert on this bill. He has would not want to see the bill go down and spent the last 10 years of his life working on battlers on less than $40,000 lose their re- superannuation; maybe he could add a bit fund because we have a philosophical differ- more information to support the legislation ence. We should sort out the philosophical going through. difference. We can debate it as much as we Senator GREIG (Western Australia) like, but we cannot neglect or walk away (6.46 p.m.)—In the few minutes remaining, I from these people on less than $40,000 be- would like to make a few points. The most cause there is a philosophical difference. You immediate point I would like to make is to know the bill is good. We have accepted express my shock at Senator Boswell saying every amendment that the Democrats put up. that the Senate ought to have a debate on We have backed it all because we think you

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16573 same-sex couples. On the very last occasion what possible argument can you provide to when I attempted that, Senator Boswell was not support them on the income splitting bill, screaming at me across the chamber to not which is specifically about relationships? do that and, in fact, that neither he nor his Mr Cameron in the other place has argued constituency wanted to do that, they never that the super choice bill would allow for wanted to do that and they will never support same-sex couples to move to that particular bringing on the sexuality and discrimination regime and avoid the discrimination. I am bill. If he has changed his mind, fine. deeply offended by that argument. Lesbian Senator Sherry interjecting— and gay people are the only people for whom Senator GREIG—It is true, Senator it is suggested that market forces should be Sherry, that you have made some strong the answer to human rights. statements about this being a human rights Senator Cherry—And they still get issue and Labor being committed to this re- taxed. form, and that you would insist on bills Senator GREIG—And they still get which the government really wanted. But at taxed. It is only the gay and lesbian commu- the time you did quarantine that to super nity to whom anybody would dare suggest choice. You did not mention this bill, and I that, rather than having national legislation to think it is fair to say that in that context end discrimination, it should be done by Senator Cherry went into negotiations with market forces. It is deeply and personally the government in good faith, knowing that offensive, and it is wrong. Senator Watson the Labor Party would not insist on same-sex has said that it would be a great pity if this amendments to this particular bill. So, to see bill were to fail on this particular point. I the amendment from Labor—their first ever agree. But, if it does, the blame for that rests on this issue—come out of the blue as it did with the government and its ridiculous posi- was, as Senator Watson correctly said, to see tion on this issue. We know where it comes Labor using the issue of same-sex couples as from. I do not think it comes from Senator a torpedo or a weapon to sink a bill that they Coonan. I think her heart is in the right place. are ultimately going to vote against. I regret It comes directly from the Prime Minister that. and cabinet. We know that because the Prime I think it is also important to make the Minister stated, in an interview with Mr point that, if that is going to be your strategy Kerry O’Brien on the 7.30 Report about two from now on, then I must appeal to consis- years ago, that he opposed equal rights and tency. There is a bill that Senator Coonan is equal superannuation conditions for same- now promoting dealing with the splitting of sex couples because it would lead to gay couples’ incomes. That is a proposal that marriage. That is where it stops so far as the would discriminate against same-sex cou- government is concerned. ples. Are you going to be consistent and in- Progress reported. sist on amendments to that bill? To the min- DOCUMENTS ister I would say—given that your argument to date has been that this particular bill on Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial co-contributions is about individuals and Research Organisation does not touch on relationships and, there- Senator CARR (Victoria) (6.50 p.m.)—I fore, these amendments are not appropriate move: and you will support them on that basis— That the Senate take note of the document.

CHAMBER 16574 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

The advice of the CSIRO annual report quoted as saying it has a target of $1.1 billion 2002-03 directly contradicts the puff piece in revenue by 2006-07. This compares with that we see in the Financial Review today on what was termed the ‘stretch target’ of $1.3 the CSIRO. The claims on page 1 of the Fi- billion in the last five-year plan. That was nancial Review today that the CSIRO is now trumpeted as the great new performance going to establish prescriptive performance measure that was going to be insisted on. We targets have demonstrated, once again, that would like to know what has happened to journalists do not necessarily have the oppor- that $200 million. tunity to check the facts. We have seen these We see in this report yet again that the ba- types of performance targets set before, and sic funding streams for the CSIRO, the basic we have seen many occasions when those drivers for their scientific achievement, re- performance targets have not been met. In main static. At the same time, we see the fact, when we go through this annual report, number of refereed scientific publications we notice some fundamental trends being and reports still below the 1997 level, while reinforced—trends I have identified through consulting or client reports increased by 35 the Senate estimates processes. May I begin per cent in the same period. There is a 10 per by asserting that CSIRO staff are doing an cent increase on last year. The number of excellent job. There are many of our finest postgraduate students supervised by the scientific minds employed by the CSIRO. CSIRO has fallen by 28 per cent, which in- They are doing that excellent job under excludes a net loss of 74 students in the last traordinary duress and despite the failure of two years. There is evidence of a massive this government to provide the adequate fi- cultural change occurring within the CSIRO, nancial and infrastructure support that is re- but this is hardly in the direction that the quired to ensure that the CSIRO is able to government claims. The content of this an- perform at its optimum. nual report confirms that there is a drift to- What we see in these measures, however, wards short-termism, and we see that in the is that there is still no triennial funding. This number of staff being appointed on short- is a position that I have called on the gov- term contracts. Any organisation must con- ernment to reverse—and I suggest it is ap- stantly refresh itself, but what we are seeing propriate that we all do so, because the gov- in the CSIRO at the moment is scientists of ernment should restore triennial funding to excellence, great experience and great the CSIRO. The effects of the government’s knowledge being lost and younger replace- short-term commercial emphasis are now ments being brought in on short-term tempo- becoming very clear. This report shows that rary placements. A Business Review Weekly IP revenue has fallen by 18 per cent in the article of 11 September put quite a contrast- year and that external earnings as a percent- ing position to that put in the Financial Re- age of total revenue have fallen to 34.1 per view today. cent—a further fall of 0.6 per cent on the It is quite clear, with the block grant of the past year. External earnings targets are CSIRO now directly under threat in the re- somewhat higher than that, but the actual views being undertaken by this government, achievements are static and barely keeping that the government strategy of moving to pace with inflation. What has happened to break up the CSIRO continues apace. We are the great leap forward that we were promised seeing in this both the Chief Scientist and the by the CSIRO in the last five-year plan? In ARC arguing for the removal of such fund- today’s Financial Review the CSIRO is ing. We notice from the Chief Scientist’s

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16575 recent report—which the government has yet and disease is estimated to be in excess of $31 to release but which we were able to draw billion. attention to yesterday at the Press Club—that This would have to make occupational health the position of Australia’s scientific and safety the major issue facing our indus- achievement is under serious threat because tries today. Yet we saw when the government of the government’s failure to provide the had an opportunity to investigate one of our necessary research and development funds most significant industries, the building and and the necessary research infrastructure. construction industry, with the Cole royal Our position by international standards is commission, they all but failed to address declining. This report demonstrates yet again any occupational health and safety issues in further evidence of that. (Time expired) that investigation. For $60 million, Austra- Question agreed to. lians were entitled to expect that issues such as the horrific accidents that plague the con- National Occupational Health and Safety Commission struction industries would have been properly investigated. Senator MARSHALL (Victoria) (6.57 p.m.)—I move: It is worth noting, and this report confirms it, that almost one construction worker is That the Senate take note of the document. killed on the job in the building and con- I draw the Senate’s attention to a very good struction industry every week. It is an issue report. I have not yet had time to go through of utmost concern. However, has it been all the tables in detail as yet but I will do adequately addressed by the royal commis- that, and I will have more to say to the Sen- sion or was it directed to do so? Of course ate at a future time. I do however want to the answer is no. Even though the royal draw the Senate’s attention to some of the commission had the power to investigate all comments in the chairman’s message. In par- issues affecting the industry—and the unions ticular, he says: pressed the Cole royal commission regularly In 2001-02, an estimated 2,200 deaths in Austra- to investigate the horrific number of injuries lia were linked to the workplace, compared to within that industry and to try to address the 1,750 killed on Australian roads. On this basis, enormous costs to the industry that have the workplace is more dangerous than the road. been confirmed in this report before us to- He goes on to say: day—there was only window-dressing in this Central to this is the need to make everyone regard with only two findings of breaches of aware of how appalling it is for a country of Aus- health and safety rules reported. However, all tralia’s prosperity, skills and capabilities to suffer in all, it pales in comparison to the findings the consequences of work related death and injury made against workers and their unions. to hundreds of thousands of our people every year. It was well known from the outset that the outcomes to be found by this royal commis- The chief executive officer in his review sion into the building and construction indus- says: try had been predetermined from the begin- According to preliminary workers compensation ning. It was simply an exercise in union data, there were 198 traumatic fatalities in Austra- bashing and nothing more. This has been lia in the 2001-02 year. In addition, it is estimated well documented in the media by many indi- that there were more than 2,000 work related viduals, even those known not to be the most disease fatalities. The cost of work related injury union friendly around. Take for instance Sydney 2UE’s Alan Jones, a self-confessed

CHAMBER 16576 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 friend of Minister Abbott. In September last ADJOURNMENT year, he said: The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT There has been a fairly major exercise in union- (Senator Hutchins)—Order! There being no bashing going on for some months, calling itself a further consideration of government docu- Royal Commission into the building industry. ments, I propose the question: Remember, this is the same building industry that That the Senate do now adjourn. delivered the 2000 Olympic Games and all its infrastructure miles ahead of time. Defence: HMAS Parramatta It is worth noting also that while the Olympics Senator PAYNE (New South Wales) were delivered ahead of schedule they were also (7.03 p.m.)—I rise tonight to make some well under budget. remarks about the commissioning of the Jones went on to note that ‘97 per cent of Australian Defence Force’s newest Anzac hearing time had been devoted to anti-union frigate, HMAS Parramatta, which was topics; 604 employers were called to give commissioned in Sydney on 4 October. It is evidence and only 33 workers; three per cent fortuitous indeed that you are in the chair of witnesses were from the ranks of workers this evening, Mr Acting Deputy President and 71 per cent were employers or their rep- Hutchins. I congratulate the new commander resentatives; and only two per cent of hear- of HMAS Parramatta, Commander Michael ing time was spent on topics which did not Noonan, on taking command of his ship and adversely affect the union’. of course wish Commander Noonan and his crew the very best for their future activities. The Cole royal commission was ridicu- lously biased against unions and everyone I found the commissioning ceremony to knows it. The Victorian unions gave the be a grand and historic occasion. In fact, it commission the names of 200 companies was an absolute honour to be there and the suspected of illegal or inappropriate behav- first opportunity I have had to attend such an iour. Of them only one of the companies was event. The Parramatta is Australia’s newest investigated during the public hearings. Un- Anzac frigate. The primary roles of the An- ions were attacked by the commission for zac class are surveillance and patrol, the pro- overzealousness in auditing employers’ tection of shipping and strategic areas, naval books yet, when the commission dealt with gunfire support in support of the Army, dis- the fact that these audits showed unlawful aster relief in the region and search and res- activity by employers, the report simply cue. To fulfil those roles they have very im- notes ‘the failure by some employers to pressive specifications: displacement of comply with the requirements of awards and 3,600 tonnes, a length of 118 metres, a range agreements’. Issues such as the underpay- of 6,000 nautical miles at 18 knots and a ment of wages, workers compensation, speed of 27 knots. Any casual observation of fraud, illegal migrant labour, tax evasion— HMAS Parramatta would confirm in anyone’s view that she is indeed a very credit- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT able addition to the Anzac frigate fleet. Par- (Senator Hutchins)—Order! The honour- ramatta is important for a number of rea- able senator’s time has expired. sons, not the least of which is her importance Senator MARSHALL—I seek leave to to the Australian Navy. To me, and to those continue my remarks later. of us who work in and around the city of Leave granted; debate adjourned. Parramatta, she is a particularly important vessel.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16577

Also present at the commissioning cere- the hunt for the German Far East fleet. Her mony were the member for Parramatta, Ross list of achievements and contributions goes Cameron, and the Mayor of the city of Par- on for some time. After the war, she was ramatta, Paul Garrard. I think it is fair to say used in a variety of training roles and was that any casual reader of the Parramatta Ad- eventually paid off from naval service in vertiser would know by now that HMAS April 1928. Interestingly for the people of Parramatta has most certainly been em- Parramatta today, the bow and stern sections braced by the city of Parramatta and by the of Parramatta (I) were salvaged in 1973 and community. In the run-up to the commission- later unveiled as memorials to the ship at ing, the reports of the Parramatta Eels pro- Garden Island, where the bow lies, and the viding jerseys and of the various parts of the city of Parramatta, where the stern lies. I community really welcoming Commander would pass it on most days travelling to and Noonan and his crew with open arms were from my office. very heart-warming. The commissioning HMAS Parramatta (II) was a Grimsby ceremony itself offered a very valuable op- class slip of 1,060 tonnes commissioned in portunity to see some young, dedicated and 1940. She sailed from Fremantle in 1940 en enthusiastic members of the RAN among the route to the Red Sea, where she spent the ship’s company of 170 officers and sailors next nine months escorting, patrolling and and to be part of, as I said, an historic occa- mine sweeping in what was then one of the sion. world’s most torrid zones. It was extraordi- In fact, the story of HMAS Parramatta is nary work. In April 1941 she took part in the a very interesting one. ‘Parramatta’ is the British operations against Italian Eritrea and oldest name in Australian naval history. East Africa and then transferred to the Medi- There have been three previous RAN ships terranean station. There is a disturbing and to bear the name and each of those saw ser- typically challenging World War II story in vice in a major conflict. The name Par- relation to her involvement in action from ramatta was taken in recognition of the Bur- that point. Suffice it to say, while escorting a ramatugal people, a clan of the Darug people small steamer into Tobruk in company with whose territory extended from the Parramatta the sloop HMAS Auckland, the allied ships area to beyond the Blue Mountains—and, came under attack. At about midnight on again, anyone who works in and around Par- 26 November she was fired upon several ramatta and Western Sydney would knows times and was finally hit by a U-boat tor- that the Darug people are very proud of their pedo. The ship was torn apart, rolled rapidly heritage and their history. to starboard and sank—138 men lost their HMAS Parramatta (I) was the first ship lives; 24 survivors were recovered. of the then fledgling Commonwealth Naval HMAS Parramatta (III) was commis- Forces, which became the RAN. She was a sioned in 1961 as the first of the six River River class torpedo boat destroyer, displac- class antisubmarine frigates or destroyer es- ing 700 tonnes and capable of a top speed of corts. She was then crewed by 250 officers 28 knots. She was launched in 1910 and in and sailors and had a top speed of 30 knots. 1913 entered Sydney Harbour for the first She completed several overseas deployments time as part of the RAN’s first fleet. She and spent many months on the Australia sta- served with distinction in World War I, most tion. There were a number of highlights in notably in the destruction of German signal her career, including escorting vessels to stations at the outbreak of the war and during Vung Tau, Vietnam. She was extensively

CHAMBER 16578 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 refitted between 1977 and 1981 and was de- tion that requires the caul—a portion of a commissioned from the RAN in 1991. newborn baby’s amniotic sac—to be carried HMAS Parramatta (IV) follows a very in the security of the CO’s safe as a guaran- proud tradition of ships of the Royal Austra- tee of the safety of the ship and its crew. In lian Navy named Parramatta. The links she olden times, sailors who carried a caul were has with the city of Parramatta are also sig- said to have been immune from drowning at nificant, including the design and origin of sea. The blessing of the caul on this occasion her badge, which is derived from the Par- was made possible because of the birth of ramatta City Council seal of 1939. As I said Commander Noonan’s own daughter, Jaimie, earlier, the salvaged stern of HMAS Par- 15 days before the commissioning, so she ramatta (I) is situated in the city of Par- will have a small part of her travelling eve- ramatta now. The Parramatta Eels have rywhere with her father in the vessel HMAS adopted the ship, the mayor has adopted the Parramatta. Her mother, Jan, is also a naval ship and, in a very short time, the rigid hull officer and it is obviously a very important inflatable boats, or RHIBs, of Parramatta event for the Noonan family. I understand (IV) will be named by the schoolchildren of Jamie was christened the next day on Par- Parramatta in a competition they are cur- ramatta, with two children of other members rently participating in. The winner will be of the crew. announced at Parramatta’s foundation day This was an inspiring and fascinating celebrations on 2 November. The name of ceremony. It involved the most high-tech, one of the RHIBs is to be related to Par- modern example of military hardware that I ramatta and the other must be an Indigenous suspect you could find in the RAN at the name. I know the schoolchildren of Par- moment. It was mixed with the history and ramatta are heavily engaged in that process. idiosyncrasies of naval tradition, which were The history that was evident in the com- revealed to some of us who had not previ- missioning process itself was also extraordi- ously had the opportunity to see such things. narily impressive and in some cases quite It was an enormous credit to the Royal Aus- moving. The ship’s lady was Mrs Jill Green, tralian Navy. I was very honoured to be pre- who comes from a naval family. Her father, sent, and I wish the Parramatta and her crew Lieutenant Bill Langford, was the executive all the very best. officer of HMAS Parramatta (II) and was Telstra: Privatisation one of those lost in 1941. Mrs Green gave a Senator COOK (Western Australia) (7.13 deeply moving and very affecting speech on p.m.)—I rise to again put on record in this the occasion of the commissioning, and I chamber reasons why the full sale of Telstra was very proud to be there to listen to that. should not go ahead. In my view and in my Even more moving, in some ways, was the vote, T1 and T2 should not have occurred. presence of four members of the crew of They have transformed a service utility that HMAS Parramatta (II) for an exchange of provided enabling services to business and to caps with the new crew of Parramatta (IV). regional, rural and urban Australia into a util- One could not help but be moved by the ity focused on profit, not service, which is emotion overwhelming that particular aspect inherently detrimental to the quality of the of the ceremony. service it delivers. T3 is the subject of gov- For the first time ever, I observed the ernment legislation that will shortly be de- blessing of the ship’s caul, an old Navy tradi- bated in this chamber and it should not go

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16579 ahead either. We know that an ideologically for workers doing the same job full-time Tel- driven Howard government is selling out stra workers would have done had they been regional Australia by pushing for the full sale fully employed’. of Telstra. We also know that the Nationals It is important also to note that Telstra has rolled over on this question and agreed to the announced its profit of $3.4 billion just re- sale despite protests from rural and regional cently, but it intends to spend $1 billion on a Australians everywhere and that the Leader share buyback scheme—that is to say, Telstra of the Nationals keeps saying that Telstra wants to buy its own shares from sharehold- will not be sold until services are up to ers. The impact of injecting $1 billion into scratch in the bush, despite the fact that he the Telstra share owning group will mean has already sealed the deal. that the price of Telstra’s shares will rise. My electorate office in Western Australia Clearly one must see that against the efforts is located in that great city of Kalgoorlie- by the government to sell off the remaining Boulder. I know that the member for Kal- 51 per cent of Telstra. By pumping up the goorlie, Barry Haase, rolled over on the sale share value through Telstra itself spending $1 of Telstra rather than take the principled billion buying shares, it will be able to put stand taken by his country colleague, Alby out a prospectus showing that the value of Schultz, in abstaining from the vote. Every- shares for T3, should it ever get to that point, one knows that the Telstra sell-off will see will be higher. services decline further in the bush, but let It should be remembered that that $1 bil- me also say that it will see services decline lion could be spent on improving services further in urban Australia. The fact that my around Australia, because, incredibly, when office is located in Kalgoorlie means I focus Telstra announced the extra dollars for the on regional issues, but I am a senator for the share buyback scheme, they also downsized whole of the state, and 70 per cent of West- their work force even further and, at the ern Australians live in Perth. Their services same time, announced a profit of $3.4 billion base too will decline and is declining under for the last year. A profit of $3.4 billion the current arrangements. should be considered against the market Let me just talk for a moment about jobs capitalisation of Telstra of $31 billion. In in Telstra. Incredibly, jobs are being cut de- other words, if Telstra for the next 10 years spite the fact that services are not up to produced the same profit of $3.4 billion, they scratch. Jobs are in fact not just being cut; would produce a return to the shareholders they are being slashed. The submission the and to the public coffers of $34 billion, CEPU put to the ongoing Senate inquiry into which is more than their total market capi- Telstra brings to light some of the shocking talisation now, so the value to Australians facts about the cuts to Telstra’s work force. would be much, much greater than simply a Since Telstra’s privatisation process began, sell-off with no further returns to the public immediately after the election of the Howard purse. government, Telstra’s work force has been Let me go back to the question of jobs. cut by more than half. In June 1996 Telstra The loss of jobs means that staff lose in- had 76,522 full-time staff members; in June depth knowledge about the local network this year Telstra had 37,169 full-time staff and the conditions under which that network members. Of course, some of those jobs have service is delivered. This is, of course, a par- been sent out to contract labour—and, where ticular problem in regional Western Austra- you see contract labour, read ‘lower wages

CHAMBER 16580 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 lia, where distances can be huge. However, In any case, it beggars belief that the staff even in major regional centres the lack of and skills did not exist in Kalgoorlie to rec- staff can cause problems. Recently in Kal- tify the problem. This is not to criticise the goorlie many residents were without phone Telstra staff—they are excellent workers. services for days because of, unbelievably, a There are only 14 technical staff who have to termite attack on a major cable. This was cover a huge area stretching right to the reported on 23 September in an excellent South Australian border and the areas sur- front-page article by Adrian Kwintowski in rounding the eastern goldfields in Western the Kalgoorlie Miner. The report says that Australia—an area bigger than the state of residents in four streets were without phone Victoria and perhaps rivalling the state of services for more than a week. Let me quote New South Wales in size. Rather, it is a criti- from the Kalgoorlie Miner, under the front- cism of the headcount management which page heading of ‘Phone lines white-anted’: has been seen over recent years, where Tel- TERMITES have taken a bite out of a main stra staff have been laid off in great numbers phone in Kalgoorlie-Boulder’s suburb of Laming- since 1996. ton, causing major disruption to phone lines. Another possible cause of faults such as Residents in at least four streets have had their this is the decline in Telstra’s capital expen- phones silenced, some for more than a week forc- diture. Telstra’s projected capital expenditure ing Telstra to call in a specialist maintenance for 2003-04 is $2.9 billion, which is 38 per team from Perth. cent below their expenditure in the years Those in Lyall, Lewis, Ward and Cotter Streets 1999-2000. The CEPU point to the Besley including a Royal Flying Doctor Service pilot had inquiry, which found significant problems been the hardest hit. A door knock in those streets with ‘ageing or degraded cables subject to by the Kalgoorlie Miner has revealed some residents were still waiting for their phones to ring as recurrent faults’ and supposedly ‘temporary late as yesterday. cabling solutions which have remained in place for many months or years’. These Lyall Street local Kathy Finlayson— problems, I have to say, are symptomatic of a a former candidate for the Nationals for the lack of expenditure on the Telstra network federal seat of Kalgoorlie— itself. If Telstra is serious about restoring said her phone and data lines had been down reasonable levels of service in the bush and since Friday, September 12. indeed in urban Australia, it needs to do Yesterday, she was told her phone should be more than a warm and fuzzy public relations reconnected by tonight. campaign attached to its Telstra Country But the Menzies Shire council president and Wide brand. Instead, it needs to invest in the Goldfields-Esperance Development Commission staff and the infrastructure which will enable chair said it was a major inconvenience because it to deliver high-quality and reliable tele- she relied heavily on her phone for work. communications services wherever Austra- And so the article continues. This incident lians live. raises two questions about Telstra’s staff In the Kalgoorlie region there are not only training levels. In their submission the CEPU the problems that I have referred to; the big- raised concerns that essential regular mainte- gest complaints are about the time it takes nance has not been completed across the Tel- for maintenance crews to correct and repair stra network. Perhaps a shortage of staff able telephone faults, the slow speed with which to carry out regular maintenance contributed the computer services are provided and, in- to the failure of this phone line in Kalgoorlie. deed, in remote Aboriginal communities, the

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16581 almost absolute lack of telecommunications. respectable jobs and enviable lifestyles. In I reiterate that these are not problems for the reality, they are held captive under threat of workers in Telstra—they are overburdened. violence to themselves and their families and It is Telstra’s decision to invest $1 billion in forced to work very long hours for little or buying back its shares to artificially inflate no money, with no freedom and no hope of the share price, it is Telstra’s dividend to pri- escape. vate shareholders which does not go to im- I was so appalled by the details which proving the network and it is Telstra’s con- came to light about this thriving trade in hu- tinuing laying off of workers that are creat- man suffering, happening right under the ing the problems. noses of authorities, that I repeatedly ques- Immigration: Sex Industry tioned the Minister for Justice and Customs Senator GREIG (Western Australia) in question time as to what the government (7.23 p.m.)—I rise tonight to acknowledge was doing to address this crisis. The justice and commend the federal government for minister claimed the issue was being ade- finally recognising the importance of taking quately dealt with by the appropriate authori- serious and immediate action to fight a most ties and that the legislation passed earlier this insidious trade in human misery. The gov- year was working effectively, in spite of the ernment’s announcement this week that it fact that there had been no convictions at all has allocated more than $20 million over at that stage. four years to combat the sex trafficking in- Over time, and despite what we were dustry in Australia is welcome and long hearing in the Senate during question time, it overdue news. came to light that there was very little coop- When Ms Puangthong Simaplee died in eration between the Department of Immigra- Villawood detention centre in September tion and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs 2001, Australians were forced to sit up and and the Australian Federal Police in dealing take notice. Investigative journalists Natalie with these issues of trafficking. I heard alle- O’Brien and Elisabeth Wynhausen from the gations that brothel owners were being Australian newspaper are to be commended tipped off about impending DIMIA raids, for their dogged pursuit of those responsible that suspicions of possible trafficking were for the treatment and ultimate death of this not passed on from DIMIA to the AFP and poor young Thai woman and for bringing the that, in some instances, complaints made issue of sexual servitude and trafficking to directly to the AFP were not being followed the notice of mainstream Australia. up. Until recently, only 13 trafficking cases—that is, since 1999—had been re- At the time of Ms Simaplee’s death, col- ferred by the department of immigration for umnists like Mr Piers Akerman were very investigation by the Federal Police when, in quick to dismiss claims that she had been just one year, 1998-99, some 237 women and trafficked to Australia as a child to work in six men found working in brothels were de- the sex industry, because they thought it was ported, most within days of being discov- so ghastly, so un-Australian and so hard to ered. imagine that it could happen in our country. But, according to anecdotes and evidence The Minister for Justice and Customs, from those at the coalface of the sex industry, Senator Ellison, argued that we had a process women are trafficked into this country at an for a criminal justice stay visa available for alarming rate, hoodwinked with promises of women who have been trafficked to allow

CHAMBER 16582 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 them to stay in the country and testify developed to meet the contemporary nature against their traffickers. He said witness proof the trade today. Increased possibilities for tection programs were available to keep international mobility, crushing poverty and these women safe while they awaited their the frequent breakdown of state order in trials but no such visa or witness protection some regions have all led to an increased had ever been issued for that purpose. incidence of people-trafficking. Since the death of Ms Simaplee and all After numerous initiatives from interna- that came to light following that terrible tional, intergovernmental and non- event, the Australian Democrats have been government organisations, the European calling for the government to establish and Commission implemented a short-term resi- fund a trafficking task force and agree to a dence permit and a witness protection thorough inquiry into the nature and extent scheme to be issued to victims of trafficking of trafficking in Australia. We finally suc- who cooperate with the authorities. Unlike ceeded in getting such an inquiry up through the Australian immigration department’s the Parliamentary Joint Committee on the practice of deportation at the earliest possible Australian Crime Commission, and I am moment, the European model allows the vic- pleased that that process is now well under tim 30 days’ stay from the time of escaping way. the traffickers in which to decide whether to We also strongly advocated that Australia cooperate with authorities. They are given should follow the practice of the United suitable accommodation, emergency medical Kingdom, where victims are the prime con- and psychological treatment and medical sideration and are offered support and assis- care. It is to be hoped that this recent injec- tance to increase the likelihood of them testi- tion of funds and interest means that the Aus- fying against their traffickers. Witness pro- tralian government is finally serious about tection is offered, and a system designed to cracking down on this vile trade. frustrate and interrupt the traffickers is im- Senate adjourned at 7.30 p.m. plemented to deter people from this trade. DOCUMENTS We know that the Howard government is not Tabling averse to this form of crime deterrent, as we saw during the ‘Pacific solution’. No ex- The following government documents pense was spared to frustrate and deter peo- were tabled: ple smugglers by ensuring that their cargoes Aged Care Standards and Accreditation did not reach Australian shores. It is a pity Agency Limited—Report for 2002-03. that the authorities are not as zealous in their Albury-Wodonga Development Corporation— treatment of sex slave traffickers as they are Report for 2002-03. with refugees and asylum seekers. Australian Fisheries Management Authority— The European Commission is also work- Report for 2002-03. ing on options to crack down on the people- Australian Greenhouse Office—Report for trafficking trade. In 2000, the United Nations 2002-03. adopted the Convention against Transna- Bureau of Meteorology—Report for 2002-03. tional Organised Crime and the trafficking in Centrelink—Report for 2002-03. persons protocol, TIPP. University of Wales Commissioner for Complaints [Aged care]— professor of law Ryszard Piotrowicz says Report for 2002-03. anti-trafficking laws are not new but must be

CHAMBER Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16583

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial National Witness Protection Program—Report Research Organisation (CSIRO)—Report for for 2002-03 on the operation of the Witness 2002-03. Protection Act 1994. Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade— Public Service Commissioner—Report for Reports for 2002-03— 2003-03, incorporating the report of the Merit Volume 1—Foreign Affairs and Trade. Protection Commissioner. Volume 2—Australian Agency for Inter- Repatriation Commission, Department of national Development (AusAID). Veterans’ Affairs and the National Treatment Monitoring Committee—Reports for 2002-03, National Industrial Chemicals Notification and including reports pursuant to the Defence Assessment Scheme—Report for 2002-03 on Service Homes Act 1918 and the Wa r G r av es the operation of the Industrial Chemicals Act 1980. (Notification and Assessment) Act 1989. Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation National Occupational Health and Safety Commission—Report for 2002-03. Commission—Report for 2002-03.

CHAMBER 16584 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE The following answers to questions were circulated: Natural Heritage Trust and National Action Plan for Salinity and Water Quality: Facilitator Positions (Question No. 1519) Senator McLucas asked the Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and Conservation, upon notice, on 17 June 2003: (1) (a) What is the total budget for the 91 Australian Government Natural Heritage Trust (NHT) and National Action Plan for Salinity and Water Quality facilitator positions recently advertised in national newspapers (and now listed on the department’s web site) and being recruited through Effective People Pty Ltd; and (b) from which program or programs is this funding coming. (2) (a) How much is Effective People Pty Ltd being paid to recruit these people; and (b) from which program or programs is this funding coming. (3) Can an organisational chart for the positions be provided showing how they will report to the department. (4) How is coordination of NHT activities managed with Department of Environment and Heritage. (5) How will these facilitators work with state department-employed NHT facilitators and project officers. (6) Can a copy be provided of all documentation which outlines the rationale for the employment of these facilitators, including how their effectiveness will be measured and/or evaluated. Senator Ian Macdonald—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) (a) 30 Australian Government Natural Resource Management Facilitator positions and 13 Indigenous Land Management Facilitator positions were advertised on 20 June 2003 in the national newspapers. Also advertised were 48 Regional NRM Facilitators. The total budget to support this network of 91 facilitators is $9.97 million. (b) The Australian Government NRM Facilitators and the Indigenous Land Management Facilitators will be fully funded by the Australian Government’s Natural Heritage Trust. The Regional NRM Facilitators will be jointly supported by the Australian Government and the States and Territories from both the Natural Heritage Trust and the National Action Plan for Salinity and Water Quality. (2) (a) The consultant, Effective People, is being paid $80,000 to recruit 91 facilitators. (b) This contract is being paid from the Natural Heritage Trust. (3) An organisational chart has not yet been created, however facilitators will report to the Australian Government Department of the Environment and Heritage and Australian Government Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry on a regular basis. The 30 fully funded Australian Government NRM Facilitators will be employed directly by the Australian Government through the Department of the Environment and Heritage and will report directly to the Australian Government Regional NRM Team (a unit jointly staffed by both Departments). The 48 Regional NRM Facilitators and the 13 Indigenous Land Management Facilitators will be managed by their host organisations on a day to day basis, in accordance with work plans that will be developed and monitored by Australian Government and State representatives. (4) High level coordination of the NHT between the Department of the Environment and Heritage and Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry is achieved through the Natural Heritage Ministerial Board that comprises Ministers Kemp and Truss. At the operational level coordination for most Trust activities is through the Australian Government Regional Natural Resource

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16585

Management Team, a joint venture that operates with staff from both the Department of the Environment and Heritage and Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. (5) It is expected that the Australian Government NRM Facilitators will work closely with state-funded NRM Facilitators and project officers. The state NRM officers will contribute to the development of the work plans for Australian Government NRM Facilitators that will ultimately be signed off by the relevant Australian Government-State Joint NRM Steering Committee. It is anticipated that Australian Government and State facilitators will work as a team, in some states being co-located. (6) A discussion paper ‘The Future of Facilitation and Coordination networks under Natural Resource Management Planning and Implementation’ focusing on the future arrangements for facilitators and coordinators that was prepared by the Department of the Environment and Heritage and Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry was released for public comment in October 2002. This discussion paper is available on the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry website. The effectiveness of the network of NRM Facilitators will be measured as part of the Natural Heritage Trust and National Action Plan Monitoring and Evaluation framework. Defence: Depleted Uranium (Question No. 1631) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice, on 15 July 2003: (1) Does the Australian Government have a position on the acquisition and use of munitions containing depleted uranium; if so, can an outline of this position be provided. (2) Does the Australian Defence Force (ADF) have a position on the acquisition and use of munitions containing depleted uranium; if so, can an outline of this position be provided. (3) Do members of the ADF receive training on the use and handling of munitions containing depleted uranium; if so, what is the nature of this training. (4) What measures are in place to monitor and protect members of the ADF who may be exposed to munitions containing depleted uranium, such as in the recent conflict in Iraq. (5) Have munitions containing depleted uranium ever been used in exercises within Australia; if so, can a list be provided of the occasions on which such munitions were used, including the nature of the exercises. (6) (a) Does the ADF have a stock of munitions containing depleted uranium; and (b) has the ADF ever had a stock of depleted uranium munitions. (7) What Australian weapons systems have in the past used, or still do use, munitions containing depleted uranium. (8) Is the United States military permitted to transport munitions containing depleted uranium on Australian soil or within Australian waters. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) and (2) Yes. The Australian Defence Force (ADF) does not currently have, nor does it plan to acquire depleted uranium munitions. (3) Yes. Before agreeing to any military deployment, the Government carefully considers the range of potential risks and threats in the area of operations and ensures that all personnel deploying are properly trained and equipped for this environment. The health risk from exposure to Depleted Uranium for Australian Defence Force personnel performing their normal operational duties is considered to be very low. Because of this assessment, no specific health briefing on DU was given prior to the initial deployment. Due to an increased in-

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 16586 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

terest in DU, health briefings on DU commenced in March 2003. Health briefings for future deployments to Iraq will include detailed information about depleted uranium. (4) The Government is aware that the United States (US) has deployed numerous military health physicists and radiation protection officers to Iraq as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Recent scientific studies suggest that there may be a slight health risk associated with significant ingestion and inhalation of depleted uranium. Defence Health Service has been advised that no Australian personnel were involved in tasks where these high respiratory exposures could occur. As a precautionary measure under Defence’s duty of care to ADF personnel, Defence Health Service has developed its own testing protocols for ADF personnel who may have been exposed to depleted uranium and other agents. In view of the potentially wide range of operational, occupational and environmental hazards, ADF personnel deployed to the Middle East Area of Operations undergo a post-deployment medical screen in the area of Operation or as soon as practicable on return to Australia. This will include an exposure assessment questionnaire and subsequent urinary uranium screening for persons assessed as having possible exposure to depleted uranium. The urinary uranium screening test will also be offered to non-exposed personnel who want the test performed. A small number of personnel have been voluntarily screened post deployment and results have been within the normal range for the Australian population. An updated Health Bulletin is at the final draft stage of preparations and will outline the specific additional post-deployment medical requirements for Op- erations SLIPPER/PALATE, BASTILLE, FALCONER and CATALYST. (5) The ADF and its contractors have reviewed documents and data pertaining to the weapons used on Australian Training Areas and any requests from foreign forces for the use of depleted uranium munitions. No evidence of depleted uranium ammunition being used on Australian Training Areas was found. There are no available records of exact times and locations at which depleted uranium munitions were expended at sea. (6) (a) No. (b) Yes. (7) Ammunition containing depleted uranium was used in the Phalanx 20mm Close in Weapons System on Navy ships from 1981 until 1990. (8) Yes. Defence: Winnellie Logistics Facility (Question No. 1823) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice, on 25 August 2003: With reference to the sale and leaseback of the Logistics Facility at Winnellie: (1) When was the Winnellie logistics facility sold. (2) What was the sale price. (3) When was this sale advertised. (4) Who managed the sale process; and how much were the managers paid. (5) How was the sale for this property conducted. (6) Was the property valued prior to sale; if so; what was the result of that valuation. (7) Has there been any valuation of the 2.7 hectares of Winnellie land the facility is situated on; if so, what was the result of this valuation. (8) How many bids were received. (9) Which organisations submitted bids.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16587

(10) What was the range of bids for the property. (11) For what reasons did Defence choose to accept the winning bid. (12) (a) Who took the decision to accept the winning bid; and (b) was the decision taken within Defence or by the Minister. (13) When was the decision taken. (14) What rent will Defence pay for the Winnellie facility in the first, second and subsequent years of the lease. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) Public auction on 23 May 2003, with settlement on 31 July 2003. (2) $3,350,000.00 (including GST). (3) From 12 April 2003. (4) Knight Frank, Northern Territory. $46,000 including GST (excluding advertising costs). (5) By auction. (6) and (7) The property was valued prior to sale. The Australian Valuation Office valued the property at $3,000,000 (excluding GST) on 28 March 2003. (8) (9) and (10) Unknown due to the sale being conducted via auction. (11) Defence chose to accept the highest bid, which was above the market valuation. (12) (a) The decision to accept the winning bid was taken by a duly appointed Defence representative. (b) Within Defence. (13) On 23 May 2003. (14) Defence will rent the Winnellie facility at a cost of $410,000 per annum (excluding GST) for the first and second years. A market rental review with a no ratchet clause will be undertaken every two years to determine the rental rate for the property. Papua New Guinea and West Papua: Logging (Question No. 1966) Senator Brown asked the Minister representing the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice, on 10 September 2003: Are any Australian companies involved in logging in Papua New Guinea or West Papua; if so: (a) which companies; and (b) what is the involvement of the Australian Government. Senator Hill—The following answer has been provided by the Minister for Foreign Affairs to the honourable member’s question: The Australian Government is not aware of any Australian companies involved in logging in Papua New Guinea or West Papua. Science: Chief Scientist (Question Nos 2008 and 2009) Senator Brown asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, and the Minister representing the Minister for Science, upon notice, on 11 September 2003: What is the process through which the Chief Scientist is selected and appointed, and who makes the appointment. Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Science has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s questions:

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 16588 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003

In 1999 the then Minister for Industry, Science and Resources proposed the name of Dr Robin Batter- ham for the position of Chief Scientist. Dr Batterham was selected following a thorough and comprehensive process including wide consultation with members of the Prime Minister’s Science, Engineer- ing and Innovation Council, and with senior representatives of the interested communities. The appointment was made by the then Minister for Industry, Science and Resources, following Cabinet endorsement. In 2002 the Minister for Science proposed the name of Dr Robin Batterham for reappointment as Chief Scientist. This reappointment was on the basis of Dr Batterham’s performance and demonstrated skills during his initial term. The reappointment was made by the Minister for Science, again following Cabi- net endorsement. Foreign Affairs: Country Briefs (Question No. 2016) Senator Bolkus asked the Minister representing the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice, on 11 September 2003: Can the Minister table the country briefs which were current in respect of the following countries in March 1996: Republic of Korea, China, Greece, Cyprus, the United States of America, Japan, Vietnam and Indonesia. Senator Hill—The following answer has been provided by the Minister for Foreign Affairs to the honourable senator’s question: The following documents are available from the Senate Table Office. Country Economic Brief KOREA 1996 China Brief 1995 Greece Bilateral Relations Cyprus Bilateral Relations United States of America—No brief was produced for that period. Country Economic Brief Japan 1995 Country Economic Brief Vietnam 1995 Country Economic Brief Indonesia 1996 Education, Science and Training: Institute of Public Affairs (Question No. 2055) Senator O’Brien asked the Minister representing the Minister for Science, upon notice, on 15 September 2003: (1) For each of the following financial years: (a) 1996 97; (b) 1997 98; (c) 1998 99; (d) 1999 2000; (e) 2000 01; (f) 2001 02; (g) 2002 03; and (h) 2003 04, has the department or any agency for which the Minister is responsible, including boards, councils, committees and advisory bodies, made payments to the Institute of Public Affairs (IPA) for research projects, consultancies, conferences, publications and/or other purposes; if so, (i) how much each payment, (ii) when was each payment made, and (iii) what services were provided. (2) In relation to each research project or consultancy: (a) when was the IPA engaged; (b) for what time period; (c) what were the terms of reference; (d) what role did the Minister and/or his office have in the engagement of the IPA; (e) was the contract subject to a tender process; if so, was it an open tender or a select tender; if not, why not.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16589

Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Science has provided the following answer to the honourable Senator’s question: Those aspects of the Department related to science and any agency for which the Science Minister is responsible for, including boards, councils, committees and advisory bodies have not made any payments during the financial years specified in the question, to the Institute of Public Affairs for research projects, consultancies, publications and/or other purposes. Education: Abuse in Schools (Question No. 2108) Senator Allison asked the Minister representing the Minister for Education, Science and Training, upon notice, on 15 September 2003: What progress has been made on developing a national framework for combating abuse in schools, as first raised by the Minister at the Ministerial Council on Education, Employment, Training and Youth Affairs meeting in July 2002. Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Education, Science and Training has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: On 17 September 2003 I presented the following statement to Parliament outlining the Government’s significant achievements in relation to the establishment and implementation of the National Safe Schools Framework to combat all forms of physical and sexual abuse in schools. Statement by the Minister for Education, Science and Training, the Hon Dr Brendan Nelson, MP National Safe Schools Framework 17 September 2003 In March 2002, the Democrats proposed amendments to the States Grants (Primary and Secondary Education Assistance) Act 2002 relating to child abuse. In short, the Democrats’ amendments proposed to impose requirements on States and non-government education authorities to report to me on the administration of relevant State legislation pertaining to the protection of children and young persons in government and non-government schools, detailing the procedures and responsibilities of schools in dealing with the physical, sexual and emotional abuse of students. The States Grants (Primary and Sec- ondary Education Assistance) Amendment Bill 2002 received passage through the Parliament on 21 March 2002 without these amendments. However, I indicated to the House that the Government would consider this issue further in consultation with State governments and the non-government sector, which employ schools staff and which have the legal responsibility for the children in their care. All school authorities, government and non-government, are committed to addressing this important issue and all have adopted a range of appropriate responses in their policies and practices. The Govern- ment’s responsibility therefore is to facilitate, in close cooperation with education authorities, parents and the broader community, the establishment of a framework that encourages the adoption of best practice approaches to establishing and maintaining safe school environments. As all States and Territories are represented on the Ministerial Council on Education, Employment, Training and Youth Affairs (MCEETYA), the Council was the appropriate forum for progressing this issue. I wrote to all of the State and Territory Ministers and gained their agreement to have the issue of child protection and safe schools discussed at the 13th MCEETYA meeting on 18-19 July 2002. The National Catholic Education Commission and the Independent Schools Council of Australia also expressed their support for a national collaborative effort to ensure the best possible procedures in child protection. At the July 2002 MCEETYA meeting, I tabled a paper outlining a proposal for the development of a national safe schools framework. From the Commonwealth’s perspective, it was important that the

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 16590 SENATE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 framework focus on the full range of safety issues that can arise from, and be positively addressed through, the interactions of members of the school community, including bullying, harassment, violence, and child abuse and neglect. A national framework approach would recognise that individual schools and school jurisdictions have policies and procedures in place for responding to these issues and that they have primary responsibility for this area, while providing the additional guidance that school communities generally require in this area, given the complexity and sensitivity of the issues. A nationally endorsed framework would also bring the greater attention that these serious and substantive issues deserve. Council accepted the Government’s proposal, agreeing to the development by early 2003 of a national safe schools framework that acknowledges the work already being undertaken by education jurisdictions, in collaboration with other portfolios. Ministers also agreed that the framework, to be considered by them out of session, should be developed by the MCEETYA Taskforce on Student Learning and Support Services (SLSS). I am pleased to inform the Parliament that the Government and the States and Territories have now agreed on a National Safe Schools Framework. The framework was developed by a Commonwealth-led Working Group of the SLSS Taskforce, following extensive national consultations with government and non-government school sectors, community groups and academics. It is succinct and written so as to be easily understood by the wider school community. The framework draws upon existing good practice and contains useful and practical pointers to guide schools in implementing appropriate policies and programmes. The framework is based on a shared vision that every Australian school is a safe and supportive environment. In seeking to realise this aspiration, schools can refer to a set of guiding principles and related key elements/approaches that should inform all policies and programmes to prevent and address bullying, harassment, violence, and child abuse and neglect. In making the decision to develop the framework, Ministers also agreed to the Government’s proposal that jurisdictions should report through MCEETYA’s annual National Report on Schooling in Australia on the extent to which they have aligned their strategies and initiatives with the framework. The development of appropriate reporting measures under the framework is to be undertaken by the Australian Education Systems Officials Committee (AESOC). I am proud of the Government’s achievements in the last twelve months. The National Safe Schools Framework seeks to provide a common agenda on which all stakeholders can work jointly to achieve a common goal, and I intend for its implementation to be built on a foundation of strong Government support. To this end, I have committed up to $300,000 in Commonwealth funding to develop materials to help schools and jurisdictions implement the framework. In addition to this, safe schools are a new priority area under the Commonwealth’s Quality Teacher Pro- gramme (CQTP) and school jurisdictions can apply to use their CQTP funding allocation to develop and deliver teacher professional learning activities in this area. A number of CQTP 2003 Project Plans received from school authorities in May have included proposals for activities in this area. The Com- monwealth is providing $27 million for CQTP 2003 professional learning projects, which are being undertaken by government and non-government education authorities. Implementation of the child protection aspects of the framework will also be supported by the establishment of teacher registration processes in jurisdictions and the preparation of model uniform legislation that provides for nationally consistent procedures and processes for the conduct of criminal record checks of persons seeking to work in educational settings with children, both of which are being pro- gressed through MCEETYA. Australians rightly expect school authorities to do everything possible to protect young people from bullying, violence and physical or sexual abuse.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 15 October 2003 SENATE 16591

The developments I have outlined today demonstrate that the Government believes the issue of safe schools deserves national action and is committed to exercising leadership in promoting the development and adoption of best practice in this area. Nuclear Energy: Waste Storage (Question No. 2109) Senator Allison asked the Minister representing the Minister for Education, Science and Training, upon notice, on 15 September 2003: (1) Is the Government aware that British Nuclear Fuels Limited is currently exhuming waste and debris contaminated with plutonium buried at its repository at Drigg, Cumbria and repackaging it, with a view to disposal in concrete at its Sellafield site. (2) Will the Government now consider exhuming the plutonium contaminated debris currently buried in earth trenches at Maralinga for proper re-burial in concrete; if not, why not. Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Education, Science and Training has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) British Nuclear Fuels Limited have advised that historical plutonium-contaminated wastes which are currently stored in above-ground structures at Drigg, not buried, are in the process of being retrieved and repackaged following a commitment to the local community and regulators. (2) No. The situation at Drigg is in no way comparable to that at Maralinga. Plutonium-contaminated waste is buried at Maralinga, not stored in above-ground structures. The disposal of waste at Maralinga followed a clean-up option proposed by experts and agreed by the Australian Government, the Maralinga Tjarujta traditional owners, and South Australia. In its final report on the clean-up the Maralinga Rehabilitation Technical Advisory Committee (MARTAC), the independent scientific committee appointed to provide scientific advice on the Maralinga Rehabilitation Project, concluded that the project had been a success and that the result is of a world-class standard. MARTAC concluded that no further clean-ups of Maralinga should be required. The Australian Government’s independent regulator, ARPANSA, has confirmed that the clean-up met the standards agreed in 1991 prior to the start of the project by the Australian Government, South Australia and the traditional owners; standards which are consistent with international guidelines.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE