Thursday Volume 569 31 October 2013 No. 67
HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)
Thursday 31 October 2013
£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1053 31 OCTOBER 2013 1054
John Glen: I thank the Minister for that answer, but House of Commons what do I say to the local authority and residents in villages such as Pitton who believe they are in the percentage that will not qualify for the imminent roll-out Thursday 31 October 2013 through the BT deal? They want to be free to develop new community-based solutions with alternative providers, The House met at half-past Nine o’clock as they anticipate they will not get anything from BT for a long time.
PRAYERS Mr Vaizey: I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss any issues. The rural community broadband fund is designed to support community broadband [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] projects that the programme is not reaching.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): This is not just an Oral Answers to Questions issue for rural areas. Semi-rural areas often fall between two stools. It is difficult for people to get broadband to their home, either because they are too far from the final mile or because the bung that has been given to CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT BT, to roll this out across the country and make it almost impossible for anybody else to compete, has made it difficult for other operators to get into areas The Secretary of State for Culture Olympics, Media such as the Rhondda. and Sport was asked— Broadband (Scotland) Mr Vaizey: BT has not been given a bung. BT is a partner in the project that is delivering superfast broadband 1. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): What recent to 90% of the country, and we have found additional discussions she has had with the Scottish Government money to reach 95% of the country by 2017. The on broadband coverage in Scotland. [900813] programme is going extremely well.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): My Department What will my hon. Friend say to the 5% of those living and the Scotland Office have had regular discussions in the hills, particularly farmers, who will not have with the Scottish Government on broadband coverage access to superfast broadband by 2016? Will he implement in Scotland, including on the delivery of two projects the Select Committee report recommendation that they for the highlands and islands and for the rest of Scotland. be given advance warning, so they can make alternative These projects will make superfast broadband available arrangements to those on offer from BT? to more than 670,000 homes and businesses. Mr Vaizey: As I have said repeatedly, it is up to local Mr Reid: I thank the Minister for that answer, but authorities to publish their local broadband plans and approximately 17% of the homes in Argyll and Bute I am delighted, particularly after the Secretary of State will not receive next generation broadband from the BT wrote to them, that many have now done so. People in contract to lay fibre-optic cables. More innovative solutions Wiltshire and Yorkshire will know where the project is are needed to deliver next generation broadband throughout rolling out. the highlands and islands. Will my hon. Friend work with the Scottish Government to come up with innovative solutions, so that all the homes in Argyll and Bute can Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): It seems to have access to next generation broadband? me that BT is a big company that sometimes does not treat small communities very well. May I draw to the Mr Vaizey: I will certainly do that. I am sure my hon. attention of the Minister the village of Rushden in my Friend will welcome the additional £250 million that constituency, where residents are complaining that they has been found to take superfast broadband coverage to are not getting the proper broadband access they deserve, 95% by 2017. despite their best efforts with BT?
Rural Broadband Mr Vaizey: I hear what my hon. Friend says. BT is a big global company that we should be proud of, but 2. John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): What progress her from time to time issues will be raised by our constituents. Department has made in rolling out rural broadband. I am happy to meet him to discuss the problem in detail. [900814] Press Regulation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Forty two local broadband projects have now agreed contracts and are 3. Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What plans she in implementation, and we are now passing approximately has in place if newspaper proprietors do not sign up to 10,000 premises every week. We have made a huge the Privy Council’s royal charter for regulating the amount of progress. press. [900816] 1055 Oral Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 1056
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to Lord Justice Leveson of innocent people suffering as (Maria Miller): All sides support self-regulation of the a result of press abuse, and it is almost a year since he press. The royal charter sets out the principles for produced his report, so a proper complaints system that self-regulators if they wish to be recognised and take does not infringe the freedom of the press and that is advantage of costs and damages incentives. The choice truly independent of the press and politicians is long to sign up lies with the industry. overdue. Does the right hon. Lady agree that the press have nothing to fear from an independent complaints Sir Tony Baldry: I am grateful to my right hon. system? Will she join me in encouraging the industry to Friend for that answer. We are here because Lord Justice establish a genuinely independent self-regulator and put Leveson said that he wanted a new voluntary code from it forward for recognition? the press that had statutory underpinning. The press have come forward with a new draft code that does not Maria Miller: I thank the right hon. and learned have statutory underpinning and the Privy Council has Lady for her kind sentiments. It is also important to come forward with a code that appears not to have press place on record that the press are making good progress support. Would it not be helpful if Lord Justice Leveson on setting up a self-regulator. They have already issued gave us all a steer on what he thinks should happen papers and are well into the necessary negotiations. now? Perhaps I could ask her a further question. Will she join me in staving off any form of pressure for statutory Maria Miller: I will, of course, leave it to Lord Justice regulation of the press, because it is clear that some are Leveson to speak for himself on whether he wants to still trying to use that as a threat? contribute further to the debate, but I can say clearly to my hon. Friend that the essence of the Leveson report Mr Speaker: We will treat that as a rhetorical question, was self-regulation. I believe that we now have a way because questions are put to Ministers, rather than forward that will safeguard the freedom of the press asked by them. and provide a good system of redress when errors are made. It is important to make the royal charter work; it is the best way to stave off the statutory regulation of Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): I endorse the the press that some are trying to impose. view of my colleague on the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly), that Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): Regarding there is no serious justification for saying that the royal the royal charter, one of the more belligerent newspapers charter marks the end of press freedom. Will the Secretary is running a piece today under the headline, “Approved of State accept, however, that the ability of Parliament behind closed doors, curbs that end three centuries of to have a say on the rules under which the press regulator Press freedom”. For the benefit of that newspaper’s operates—even with a requirement for a two-thirds poor readers, would the Secretary of State care to majority, which, as she knows, has no constitutional comment on the accuracy of that headline? validity—allows that claim to be made? If it is that provision that is preventing some newspapers from joining, will she now, even at this late stage, consider alternative Maria Miller: We have had a great deal of debate on safeguards such as the one in the PressBoF charter? the self-regulation of the press, through the Leveson inquiry and through the 11 subsequent debates in this House and the other place. The important thing is that Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right to say that we make this work for the industry and for people who safeguarding that freedom and ensuring that there is no are seeking redress. political interference in the system are absolutely critical. That is why I was keen to make the further change to Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): I congratulate ensure that any changes would require not only to a my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, the Prime two-thirds majority here and in the other place but the Minister and all those involved in the difficult business overwhelming support of the regulatory body. of striking the right balance. Given the overwhelming public support for a system of independent regulation, Fixed Odds Betting Terminals does my right hon. Friend agree that the editors and press barons should now recognise that the will of 4. Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): Parliament has been declared, and that they should What assessment she has made of the effect of fixed support the people, come to terms with this measure odds betting terminals on local communities. [900818] and negotiate with her?
Maria Miller: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, I would add that the public overwhelmingly support a Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): The Government free press, so it is important that we strike the right have conducted a review of stake and prize limits for all balance. I am sure that everyone here today would agree categories of gaming machine, including fixed odds that the new system has to have a free press at its heart, betting terminals. We took advice from the Gambling while giving individuals the right level of redress, as Commission and the Responsible Gambling Strategy I believe it will. Board as part of our review, which was published earlier this month. Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): I thank the Secretary of State for the key role that she Lucy Powell: The Minister will be aware that last has played in finally getting the royal charter sealed by week, in answer to a question from my hon. Friend the the Privy Council yesterday. Clear evidence was presented Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), the 1057 Oral Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 1058
Prime Minister said he would look again at the damaging the industry itself to rapidly advance our understanding. effects of fixed odds betting terminals. When will this Dealing with problem gambling and protecting the review begin and what form will it take? vulnerable are priorities for this Government.
Mrs Grant: This is, of course, a very serious issue. Simon Wright: A recent study conducted in the London The future of these B2 gaming machines is currently borough of Newham found that 87% of gamblers believed unresolved, but further work has already started. B2 machines to be addictive, and many described them as the crack cocaine of gambling. Will the Minister Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): The assure gamblers that the Government will listen to their Minister will be aware that the Kent Messenger recently personal evidence and experiences, and respond to them reported that gamblers across Kent and the Medway as a matter of urgency? lost £33 million on FOBTs, including £1.6 million in my constituency and £1.9 million in her own constituency. Mrs Grant: I certainly can give that absolute assurance. Does she agree, therefore, that we need to look properly The Government will examine all relevant research and at the devastating impact that these high-risk, high-stake evidence on these machines. We need to develop a machines are having on our constituents? proper understanding before taking action—if we decide to take action—to ensure consumer protection. Mrs Grant: I remember reading that article in the Kent Messenger. I would emphasise to my hon. Friend Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Has the Minister read that there is certainly no green light for FOBTs; we will the Association of British Bookmakers’code for responsible be reviewing their existence and functioning very carefully. gambling and player protection in licensed betting offices, which has been released recently? If so, does she think it 13. [900830] Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) goes any way to allaying the fears of many Members? (Lab): The stakes taken by these machines are so great that they have become a magnet for money laundering Mrs Grant: I have to be honest with the hon. Gentleman: gains. Coral, the bookmakers, has recently been given that I have only been in the job for about three exposed for taking £900,000 of laundered money. The weeks, I have not read that document page by page, but Serious Organised Crime Agency thinks the problem I am happy to look at it and come back to him on those so great that bookmakers should be included in money issues. laundering directives from the EU, which are currently under review. What is the Minister’s view? Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Mrs Grant: As I keep repeating, my view is that these Is the Minister aware that virtually every new gambling machines raise serious issues, but we need to take a fair product since the 1970s has been referred to as the crack and decent approach to the issue of problem gambling, cocaine of gambling and that to think that this is while also not over-regulating bookmakers. We therefore unique is ridiculous? Given that people can lose an need to do our research and look at the matter in detail unlimited amount of money within a minute on a so that we can come up with a balanced, sensible and five-furlong sprint at Epsom, does she agree that opposition fair way forward. to FOBTs is ridiculous, particularly given that they have a bigger rate of return for the punter—97%—than any Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does the other gambling product in any betting shop or casino, Minister agree that one effect of allowing B2 gaming or anywhere else for that matter? machines in bookmakers is that they help to maintain the viability of these offices, providing employment for Mrs Grant: My hon. Friend raises some interesting local people and an environment where those with a issues, but work has begun and we will look at all the gambling problem are more likely to be identified and evidence and all the research. In addition, we will put pointed in the direction of the help they need than if pressure on the industry to develop its own harm mitigation they were to sit at home gambling on the internet, measures. We must ensure that those measures work where, incidentally, they could gamble any amount they and that their success is evaluated. liked?
Mrs Grant: My hon. Friend makes a fair point. As I Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): These wicked have just explained, we need to take a proper, balanced machines are destroying lives and families in some of and decent approach. We do not want to over-regulate the poorest areas of our country. Ireland has banned bookmakers, but it is a priority for the Government to these machines; should we not simply follow that example? protect the vulnerable. Mrs Grant: As I have said repeatedly, the future of Gambling Addiction these machines is not set in stone, there is no green light for fixed odds betting terminals and their future will be kept carefully under review. 5. Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): What steps she is taking to collect evidence on links between gambling addiction and B2 gambling machines. [900819] Press Regulation
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, 6. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): When she expects Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): We are working the Privy Council to consider the political parties’ proposals with the Gambling Commission, the Responsible Gambling for a Royal Charter on press regulation; and if she will Strategy Board, the Responsible Gambling Trust and make a statement [900820] 1059 Oral Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 1060
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May (Maria Miller): As the right hon. Member will be aware, I push the Minister on the arts as part of the tourism the royal charter was granted yesterday. A copy will be attraction? People come to this great country for our placed in the Libraries of both Houses shortly. great artistic endeavours, but we have arts in the regions, and is it not about time that, through the Arts Council Mr Bradshaw: Given the endemic misreporting of and other means, the regions got the support they this issue by the press itself—including, I am afraid, by deserve—rather than just, “London, London, London”? the Financial Times, which claimed this week that the right hon. Lady was going to break the all-party consensus Mrs Grant: A total of 70% of funding goes to the and support the non-Leveson-compliant PressBoF regions, which is a very positive story. I have to say that charter—will the Secretary of State now explain for all Labour Members did little about this when they had the our benefits what she thinks will happen next? opportunity to do so.
Maria Miller: It is a complicated issue, which explains David Wright (Telford) (Lab): What specific proposals the difficulties in the reporting of it. The royal charter has the Minister for the promotion of world heritage has been put in place. More importantly, as the House sites? Ironbridge Gorge is an incredibly important world should recognise, the press is well down the road of heritage site, and an engine for the regional economy in setting up the self-regulatory mechanism that it needs to the west midlands. We are missing a trick as a nation by move forward. That should be applauded, and the not promoting such sites more strongly. whole House should welcome it.
Mr Speaker: The appetite has been exhausted. Mrs Grant: VisitEngland and VisitBritain do very good work, and I am sure they both have comprehensive strategies, but the hon. Gentleman has made a good Tourism point. I shall be happy to meet him and hear about any ideas that he may have, and I shall certainly pass them 7. Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): What steps on. she is taking to support tourism. [900821] Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Ind): One iconic 10. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): institution that attracts a lot of tourism into the United What steps she is taking to support tourism. [900825] Kingdom—and, indeed, within the United Kingdom—is the great British pub, where people can enjoy tremendous The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, real ales, tremendous food and a wonderful welcome, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): The Government but far too many pubs are still closing every week. Will place great importance on tourism. It is an excellent my hon. Friend discuss with fellow Ministers what part of our growth strategy. That is why we are investing more can be done to retain the vitality of this amazing over £130 million, matched between the public and industry, particularly in the realms of rate relief for private sectors, in the GREAT and other marketing rural pubs? campaigns, both at home and abroad. Mrs Grant: I am very fond of my own local pub, the Laura Sandys: Following a very successful summer in Unicorn in Marden, and I do step in there now and South Thanet, profiling some of my beautiful beaches, I again. I reassure my hon. Friend that we are doing a was very much hoping that the Government might great deal to assist the business sector, and that includes reopen the issue of daylight saving, which would deliver helping pubs by reducing fuel and beer duties. We are £3 billion extra to the economy and 700,000 jobs in the also trying to simplify planning, and are continuing to tourism sector. cut red tape, regulation and bureaucracy.
Mrs Grant: I know that my hon. Friend is a passionate Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): advocate of tourism in her area, and I have been fortunate The Minister will, of course, have noticed that Scotland in being able to visit her constituency. However, as the has been named the third best place to visit in 2014 by Prime Minister made clear quite recently, in the absence the “Lonely Planet” travel guide. The guide cites a of consensus on this matter throughout the UK—including in Scotland and Northern Ireland—it would be “jam-packed schedule of world class events”, inappropriate to consider making changes. including the Ryder cup and the Commonwealth games, as well as our Harriett Baldwin: With 8,000 people in Worcestershire— “buzzing cities and stunning scenery”, the glorious county that gave birth to Edward Elgar— much of which is in my constituency. It also notes that working in the tourism industry, will the Minister welcome the referendum gives Scotland an opportunity to the 13.5% increase in long-haul flights into Birmingham airport? Will she also welcome the news that, in 2014, “shine on the world stage”. the runway will be lengthened and even more markets Does the Minister agree that, without even a vote being will be able to access tourism in Worcestershire? cast, Scotland has already won?
Mrs Grant: I am happy to welcome both pieces of Mrs Grant: Scotland is a wonderful place in which to positive news. I know that my hon. Friend’s constituency live and work, and I am sure that it will put on an is very beautiful, so I can well understand why so many absolutely fantastic Commonwealth games event next people would wish to flock to it. year. I look forward to my next trip up there. I grew up 1061 Oral Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 1062 in the borders and spent many a time in Dumfriesshire Minister to have an early meeting with the all-party and Gretna Green, so I know what a beautiful place group on the racing and bloodstock industries to talk it is. about these issues so that we can keep the pressure on?
Horserace Betting Levy Mrs Grant: I will be very happy indeed to have that meeting. 8. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): What assessment she has made of support given to horse racing by the Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The horse racing industry horserace betting levy. [900822] is not just part of British culture; it is also essential to our rural economies. However, we have an offshore The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, betting industry that largely does not contribute anything, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): I am delighted that through a levy, to the industry. It is therefore important an agreement was reached last week on the 53rd levy that the Minister reviews the Government legal advice scheme. The levy provides vital support for horse racing, on the betting levy in the light of the European Commission a sport that is enjoyed by millions, supports thousands ruling in July of this year that allows a levy to be of jobs across Britain, and contributes to local economies. imposed. Will she review that in time for amendments to be tabled to the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Ian Swales: On Tuesday we have Second Reading of Bill? the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill, which proposes the introduction of a UK licence for offshore Mrs Grant: I agree with the hon. Gentleman to a gambling providers but fails to deal with levy avoidance. certain extent, because the levy was created 50 years ago Will the Minister urgently address that issue and get on and does not completely deal with modern betting and with the job of producing a long-term, sustainable racing practices, so, as I have previously said, I will funding arrangement to support Redcar race course consult. We will take evidence and look at the situation and the rest of our vital horse racing industry? very carefully indeed, and try to find a modern, sustainable and enforceable legal solution. Mrs Grant: The Bill is actually about increasing protection for British customers, and allowing British-based Several hon. Members rose— operators to compete on an equal footing with remote operators. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman approves Mr Speaker: I call Fiona Mactaggart—not here. of that. We do not intend to use the Bill to reform the levy. BBC (Golden Goodbyes) Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): The Minister may be aware of the existence of remote 11. Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): channels. If British racing is to have any sustainable, What recent discussions she has had with the BBC long-term future, any betting activity must involve a Trust on reducing the use of golden goodbye clauses in legally binding contribution, including activity through BBC contracts. [900826] remote channels. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Mrs Grant: A suitable replacement would have to be (Maria Miller): It is right that licence fee payers expect sustainable, enforceable and, as the hon. Gentleman their money to be spent responsibly, and a part of that says, legally sound. I will of course seek advice from is ensuring that these matters are subject to the right every quarter. level of scrutiny. Under the leadership of Tony Hall, a cap on all future severance payments has already been Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I am implemented. grateful to the Minister for pointing out how many thousands of jobs the horse racing industry creates and Mr Raab: I thank the Secretary of State for that sustains each and every year. The levy is largely collected answer. Does she agree that the BBC must comply with from bookmakers’ shops, the number of which has the Public Accounts Committee order for disclosure of halved in the last 20 years, falling from a peak of about the 150 senior managers who received pay-offs at taxpayers’ 17,000 to 8,500. Does the Minister agree that it is expense? Has she made that clear to the director-general important for us to see the debate about machines and and the chairman of the trust? gambling in proportion, and for it to be evidence-based, so that we do not lose any more shops and, as a result, Maria Miller: I, like my hon. Friend, believe transparency jobs in the betting and horse racing industries? is incredibly important, and in particular for the BBC for the reasons I have just given regarding what licence Mrs Grant: The horse racing industry is a great fee payers expect. Detailed decisions about the disclosure British success story enjoyed by millions, including me, of personnel information are squarely for the management and I agree with what my hon. Friend says. of the BBC, but I understand the point my hon. Friend makes. Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): The new agreement between the big four bookmakers and many Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Does of the race courses is an important breakthrough and it the Secretary of State agree that senior executives who is important that the momentum is maintained, but, have resigned rather than been sacked should get no worryingly, some of the smaller courses and independent compensation, and that if they were sacked it should bookmakers may lose out, so may I encourage the not be covered up as though they had resigned? 1063 Oral Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 1064
Maria Miller: I think it is fair to say the judgment of classically trained pianist who won for his album of senior management on some of these matters has been ambient music. I would hesitate to interfere in the questionable. I am pleased to see that future deals in commercial arrangements of either the big labels or the excess of £75,000 will need to be approved by the BBC indie labels, but I am sure that each can learn from senior management committee, and we should not see the other. severance payments exceeding £150,000. I think that is absolutely right. Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Minister for explaining the greatness of that particular James Blake, because I Broadband had in mind a very distinguished black American tennis player of the same name. I am obliged to the Minister 12. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): What recent for educating me. estimate she has made of the number of households in (a) Wiltshire and (b) the UK that will have superfast internet access on the 4G spectrum but not through Topical Questions fixed-line broadband by January 2015. [900829]
T1. [900803] Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Perhaps The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, you should write a book on tennis, Mr Speaker. Numero Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): The four mobile uno: if she will make a statement on her departmental network operators are aiming to roll out 4G mobile responsibilities. broadband services to 98% of the population. EE is aiming to reach that by the end of 2014, and the others by the end of 2015. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller): I should also say happy Halloween, if Duncan Hames: I thank the Minister for his reply, but that is indeed appropriate, Mr Speaker. he has not been able to share with me the number of We recently announced a £10 million fund dedicated households that will not have access to fixed-line solutions to celebrating some of our nation’s most important by that time: in communities in a large part of my anniversaries. Visits to museums and galleries are at constituency, from Hilperton and Semington to Whitley, their highest ever levels. The merger of the Gambling fixed-line fibre installations will not even have begun. Commission and the National Lottery Commission has Will he issue guidance to local authorities on how they now been completed, saving the taxpayer £1 million a can use mobile spectrum-based solutions in their broadband year. programme? Chris Bryant: I was going to say that the Secretary of Mr Vaizey: We are taking a technology-neutral approach State is an absolutely wonderful woman, and then she to our roll-out of superfast broadband, but we have set went all American by referring to Halloween—I would aside another £250 million to increase coverage, which prefer us to stick with a British institution. May I say to will, of course, include Wiltshire. her that she did a wonderful thing yesterday, I am very proud of her and I hope she will stand firm on these Online Music Streaming Services issues? The hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) was right earlier when he said that it is now 14. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What recent for the industry to come to terms with what the public discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for want in this country, which is a fair system of redress— Business, Innovation and Skills on payment to artists nothing more, nothing less. Will the Secretary of State by online music streaming services. [900832] tell us when the body that will be able to regulate the body that is going to be doing the regulating will be The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, set up? Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): My colleague the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills Maria Miller: I will resist saying, “With friends like and I are keen to ensure that artists are appropriately the hon. Gentleman, who needs enemies.” I thank him rewarded for their creative content, including in the for his kind words and, I am sure, the sentiment in online world. Where music-streaming sites are legitimate, which they were meant. Obviously, he is right to say the payment of royalties is a commercial arrangement that we have made very good progress, and I hope he between the rights-holder and the online service provider. will join me in now resisting all calls for any form of statutory regulation of the press, which some others Kerry McCarthy: I thank the Minister for that response. have been trying to impose. He asks me about the A number of musicians have recently pulled their music timing, and I can tell him that the panel will be set up in from Spotify because the amounts that such online the next six to 12 months. services pay is so minuscule that the emergence of new artists and the financial sustainability of new music are T4. [900806] Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): A being threatened. Does he think that the larger labels small business in my constituency has had its telephone should follow the example of some indie labels and give “slammed”: taken out of its hands and given to a local a 50:50 split to their artists? resident. We have been trying to get redress from Tesco, which has been reallocating these telephones lines. It is Mr Vaizey: As we are talking about new or emerging affecting the advertising and business costs of this artists, may I use this opportunity to congratulate James small business; it is losing business and the resident is Blake on winning the Mercury award last night? He is a regularly receiving inquiries about tattoos. 1065 Oral Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 1066
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, T7. [900810] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): With Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Slamming is reference to the growing rural economy, what reassurance against the Ofcom regulations, and I am appalled to can my hon. Friend give my constituents that we will hear about what my hon. Friend’s constituent has gone have 90% rural broadband roll-out across Stroud by through. I will certainly do everything I can to assist 2015? her, as this is an appalling practice. Mr Vaizey: I am delighted to update the House on the Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Will Ministers significant progress we are making. We are connecting join me in congratulating the National Theatre on more than 10,000 homes a week. Half the projects that 50 years at the very heart of our cultural and artistic are under way are already ahead of schedule and we are life? It is a great reminder of the sheer quality of the bringing in 4G two years ahead of schedule. This is a excellence of our national arts institutions, many of triumphant programme. which are based in the capital. Outside London, however, the picture is now very different. I pay tribute to those T3. [900805] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): On who have produced a report today showing the massive Monday I asked the Minister for Universities and disparity in Government and lottery support for the Science why the UK is the only country in the EU that arts. What the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, will introduce a private copying exception without a Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Maidstone and levy on copying devices to compensate UK artists, and The Weald (Mrs Grant) said earlier is wholly wrong; he said that other countries had introduced far wider whereas Londoners get £70 per head each year the rest exceptions, which is not the case: only two of them of the country gets only £4.60 per head. So what are the have. Will the Minister talk to his counterpart in the Government going to do to rebalance our cultural Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to economy? ensure that our artists are not left worse off than those in the rest of the EU? Maria Miller: The hon. Lady raises a point that we are trying to address, after her Administration did so Mr Vaizey: I am seeing my counterpart in the Department little to address it. We are trying to make sure that our for Business, Innovation and Skills this afternoon to great national institutions do work regionally and to talk about this very issue, so the hon. Lady’s question is throw a spotlight on the excellent work they do. Only a well put. month ago, I was at an exhibition in my constituency that had been put on by the Victoria and Albert museum. T8. [900811] Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): We should be applauding the work that our national Today has seen the launch of the all-party group report institutions are doing in the regions. on nuisance calls. It contains 16 excellent recommendations which, if implemented, would significantly increase Mr Speaker: Let us try to get through the full list. protection for vulnerable consumers, improve the I call Mr Steve Baker. effectiveness of the regulators, and renew confidence in the telecoms and direct marketing industries. Will my T6. [900808] Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I am extremely grateful to the Minister for the detailed hon. Friend therefore support my private Member’s Bill correspondence that he has had with me on the technical tomorrow to implement some of those recommendations issue of radio spectrum use for DAB, but on my as soon as possible? constituents’ advice I remain concerned that successive Governments may have wasted some radio spectrum. Mr Vaizey: As my hon. Friend knows, he and I have Would he please arrange a meeting between me and my been discussing this issue for many months. I take this constituents and the relevant technical staff to try to lay opportunity to pay tribute to the fantastic work he has this issue to rest? done to make progress on the issue. He knows that I support many of the points that he makes in his private Mr Vaizey: I will. Member’s Bill.
T2. [900804] Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I T5. [900807] Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) hesitate to make a party political point, but I must pick (Lab): A change to the royal charter on the press up the Secretary of State on what she has just said. requires a two-thirds majority, so some hon. Members’ There are real problems with arts funding outside votes will have twice the weight of those of other hon. London, as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member Members. Will the Secretary of State put this constitutional for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). It is not the innovation to a vote in this House? case that the previous Government did nothing. My own city, Liverpool, saw a renaissance in the cultural Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman must have missed sector. Will the Government now play their part and the 11 debates we have had on that. There is all-party commit to a report on proper cultural funding for cities support for the way we are going forward. May I correct that do not happen to be our capital? him slightly? It is not just a two thirds majority of both Houses, but unanimous agreement of the regulatory Maria Miller: The hon. Lady is right to say that there body that is required. is a problem. What I was saying is that we are trying to resolve a problem that we inherited. She will know that T9. [900812] Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Does Liverpool receives £89 million a year, the highest funding the Secretary of State agree that Britain, where many of outside London. I agree that we should try to make sure the world’s sports originated, ought to have a national that the great regional culture that we have in this sports museum, including a permanent display for the country receives the support it requires. London 2012 Olympic legacy? 1067 Oral Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 1068
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker): Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): That is an interesting The Home Office has chaired a meeting with the Director idea. There is no current plan for a national sports of Public Prosecutions and national policing leads to museum, but I know that the National Football Museum consider the fall-off in police referrals and prosecutions. in Manchester is very popular. It is free and it receives That has led to a six-point plan to support successful about 100,000 visitors every year. outcomes for victims of rape and sexual violence.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): Fiona Mactaggart: The number of women reporting MPs from both sides of the House had an excellent rapes has increased by 4,000, but the percentage of such meeting with the FA last week on the future of women’s cases being referred to the Crown Prosecution Service football. Unfortunately, the commission that the FA set has continued to fall from 50% when Labour was in up was initially all white and is still all male. What does government to about 30%. The Minister says that he the Minister think about that and can we remind the FA has a six-point plan and the Secretary of State told me that the future of women’s football is important, too? on Monday that there had been round-table meetings, but when will we see action for women, or will we Mrs Grant: Women do a remarkable job in football, continue to see cuts in services for victims of rape and and men do a remarkable job in football too. It is domestic violence? important that commissions and bodies reflect the make-up of the society they seek to represent and I have made Norman Baker: We all take this issue very seriously in that point very clear to all parties concerned. government. I am concerned about the fall in referrals and I think part of that is due to engagement between Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): The Minister will the police and the CPS, because the fall-off in referrals be aware that North Yorkshire has taken great strides in has not been matched to the same degree by a fall-off in rolling out superfast broadband across the county. The convictions. This is nevertheless an important matter. I project is near completion. Will the Minister consider am taking a personal interest in it and I am also talking early release of the phase 2 funding for areas such as about it to all the chief constables, who are coming into North Yorkshire to help bridge the digital divide in the Home Office this afternoon. those areas? Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What percentage Mr Vaizey: May I use this opportunity to congratulate of convicted rapists serve their time in prison in full North Yorkshire on forging ahead with the superfast before they are released? broadband programme, which has made astonishing progress? I hear what my hon. Friend says. We are working out the details of how to allocate the next Norman Baker: I cannot give a specific answer, but we tranche of funding to take superfast broadband to 95% obviously do not release anyone who is a danger to the and I will keep him informed. public. That remains our position.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab): What progress has the Secretary of State West) (Lab): According to freedom of information requests made to prevent tickets for the 2015 rugby union world compiled by Labour, there has been a 33.5% drop in the cup from being bought up and resold with a great number of rape cases referred to the CPS for prosecution mark-up on the secondary market? There is clearly a since 2010. That figure was rising under the previous great desire that something should be done to crack Government. Given that police budgets have been cut down on that, so will she confirm that she will introduce by 20% over the same period, does the Minister accept the necessary legislation, like we had for the Olympics, that the hollowing out of police services has led to more and kick the touts into touch? perpetrators of rape and sexual violence getting away with it? What is he going to do about that disgraceful Maria Miller: The hon. Lady brings up an important situation, which will inevitably lead to more perpetrators issue about the supply of tickets. We have it well in hand committing rapes, as they feel emboldened to do so and we are ensuring that the tickets are released in a with impunity? way that means we will not fall into the problems she has outlined. Norman Baker: I welcome the hon. Lady to the Front Bench, as I understand that this is her first outing. I do not believe that the issue of funding for the police is in any way connected with this matter, because WOMEN AND EQUALITIES otherwise—[Interruption.] Otherwise, we would have seen a drop in the number of investigations of murder, homicide or complex fraud, and we are not seeing that. The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked— Other factors are at play, I think, including the number of historic allegations that are quite rightly coming Sexual Violence Prosecutions forward and the fact that there is more encouragement of people to come forward—[Interruption.] I know 1. Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): What recent that this is the hon. Lady’s first outing, but if she let me discussions she has had on increasing the number of answer the question rather than chuntering it would be successful prosecutions in cases of rape and sexual helpful. This is a serious issue and I want to try to violence; and if she will make a statement. [900833] address it properly. 1069 Oral Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 1070
We are taking action on this matter. The figures from The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker): the Office for National Statistics show a 9% increase in With permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer Questions 3 the number of sexual offences being reported and a 9% and 4 together. increase in the number of rapes recorded by the police in the year to June 2013 compared with the previous Mr Speaker: I fear that the Minister cannot, because year. The number of convictions has changed only Question 4 has been withdrawn. He can confine himself marginally from earlier years, because prosecution cases to Question 3, which should facilitate a shorter answer, that will not be successful are weeded out at an earlier for which we are grateful. stage. I have already said that we are concerned about this matter. I want to look into the precise reason why Norman Baker: The answer is the same either way, referrals have gone down and it is my intention to ensure Mr Speaker. that we get as many successful prosecutions as possible. The coalition Government’s action plan to end Mr Speaker: Order. We all enjoy hearing the Minister, violence against women and girls sets out a number of but on the whole the abridged rather than the “War and commitments to raise awareness and prevent violence Peace” version is to be preferred, so we will leave it against women and girls. We have extended the definition there. of domestic abuse to include 16 and 17-year-olds, and our national campaigns on teenage rape and relationship FTSE 100 Companies abuse challenge the attitudes underpinning violence against girls. 2. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): What progress has been made on increasing the number of women on Stella Creasy: With research telling us that one in boards of FTSE 100 companies. [900834] three young girls in this country report experiencing sexual harassment in school, why did every single Member The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller): on the Government Front Bench vote against making The Government support Lord Davies’s voluntary sex and relationships education compulsory for both business-led strategy for increasing the number of women boys and girls in all schools in Britain? in UK boardrooms. Good progress is being made: women now account for 19% of board members in our Norman Baker: May I first congratulate the hon. FTSE 100 companies, up from 12.5% in February 2011. Lady on her involvement in the banknote campaign and say how sorry I was to hear about the abuse she Caroline Dinenage: I thank the Minister for that received as a consequence? answer. Is she aware of the importance of the so-called The governing bodies of all maintained schools mumpreneurs, who work from home and contribute must have an up-to-date sex and relationships education approximately £7 billion a year to our economy? Will policy. The guidance makes it clear that all young she join me in congratulating those inspirational women people should understand how to avoid exploitation and pledge to support them? and abuse and how the law applies to relationships. In addition, we have two hard-hitting campaigns, on teenage Maria Miller: I absolutely join my hon. Friend in relationship abuse and teenage rape prevention, which congratulating mumpreneurs and applauding their work. have been very successful, as the number of website hits I know that she is a small business woman and knows a shows. great deal about the sector. The figures speak for themselves: in the last quarter we saw a further 27,000 women taking up entrepreneurial roles in our economy, making Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Essex has one of the 1.2 million in total. That is real progress indeed. highest incidences of domestic violence in the country, and two tragic murders have occurred in Harlow as a Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): There is no board result of domestic violence. What help can the Government in this country more high-profile than the Cabinet, so give to education and local charities to reduce domestic what message is being sent to business when only four violence? out of 23 of its members are women? Norman Baker: I have already mentioned the websites Maria Miller: I take this opportunity to welcome the we have introduced, which have had over 1 million hits hon. Lady to her first questions on the Front Bench. I since 2010. We are also taking clear action on online am sure that she will make a good contribution to all abuse and have published documents this year taking our Question Times. She is right that the Government forward our strategy. I intend to make it a high priority have a huge role to play in setting an example. In my during my time in office. Department we have a significant majority of women in leadership roles. We want to ensure that in future we Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): have even more women not only in Parliament and as Despite the commitment that the Prime Minister made Ministers, but in the Cabinet, something on which the in this House that police would be able to retain the Prime Minister has made his thoughts very clear. DNA of individuals arrested but not charged with rape, we now know that over the summer the police have had Violence against Women and Girls to destroy the DNA records of thousands of suspected sex offenders before the appeals process is introduced at 3. Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): What the beginning of next month. Has not that shocking steps she is taking to increase awareness of and prevent incompetence by the Government put more women and violence against women and girls. [900836] girls at risk? 1071 Oral Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 1072
Norman Baker: I am not sure that I accept the version Dr Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Question 7, of events that has been given. The hon. Lady will of Mr Speaker. course understand, as will the whole House, that there is a balance to be struck between the unnecessary Mr Speaker: We are on Question 5. Does the hon. retention of DNA in terms of civil liberties and the Lady wish to intervene on that? need to prevent serious crime. Striking that balance is something that the Government are very keen to get Dr Coffey: No. right. Mr Speaker: Fair enough. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Is it the Government’s view that taking steps to increase awareness of and prevent violence against women and girls is more important Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) than increasing awareness of and preventing violence (PC): Figures from Chwarae Teg indicate that 7% of against men and boys, or is it the Government’s view employed women in Wales are in senior management that it is equally important to increase awareness of and compared with 11% of men. What discussions has the prevent violence against all of them? Minister had with the Welsh Government about action to close that gap? Norman Baker: I certainly agree that it is important to act on violence against any individual. Of course, it is Jo Swinson: Lots of discussions go on in government predominantly against women and girls and vulnerable among officials on these issues, but I have not personally adults, and they must come first in our consideration, had any such discussions with Welsh Ministers. However, but it is also true that the £40 million recently allocated Governments have a role to play in leading by example to deal with these matters includes a strand to deal with with the civil service, in trying to make it easier for violence against men and boys. women to achieve parity with men on pay and progression, and in working with businesses to make the business Women in Business case that diverse teams achieve better results.
5. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Disabled People (Workplace Provision) What steps she is taking to support senior women in business. [900838] 6. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op): What steps she is taking to improve the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women position of disabled people in the workplace. [900839] and Equalities (Jo Swinson): Under this Government, more women are in work than ever before, and we are The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions determined to do more. My right hon. Friend the (Mike Penning): The Government have a number of Minister for Women and Equalities has already mentioned programmes in place to enable disabled people and the excellent work to increase the number of women on people with health conditions to get into and remain in boards. We have also set up the Think, Act, Report work. We intend to publish proposals for those programmes initiative promoting gender equality in the workplace, in our employment strategy by the end of the year. and 131 companies have signed up, covering almost 2 million employees. Mark Lazarowicz: One of those programmes is the Access to Work scheme, but since the election the Luciana Berger: I understand what the Minister says, number of disabled people it supports has dropped by but we have some of the highest levels of female over 15%—that is about 6,000 people. Will the Minister unemployment in a generation. Does she agree that commit himself to taking steps to ensure that that mothers of school-age children need a guarantee of worrying trend is reversed? stable, wraparound care if they are to be able to pursue careers in business or elsewhere? If she does, will she back Labour’s primary child care guarantee and explain Mike Penning: I will commit myself to giving everybody why her Government scrapped the previous Labour who wants to get into work the opportunity to do so, Government’s Extended Schools programme, which whether they are disabled or have health difficulties or provided urgent and necessary breakfast clubs and after- not, and to keep their jobs and continue in employment. school clubs to help parents, particularly mothers? I will look carefully at the figures. The Access to Work scheme is working very well, but nothing is perfect. Jo Swinson: I certainly agree that child care is an absolutely key element for many women making their Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Only 3% of way in business and, indeed, in other careers, but I do disabled people in the employment and support allowance not agree that making an uncosted proposal that all group in the Work programme found a job after two schools should suddenly provide such wraparound child years. Given the Government’s failure to help long-term care without providing the means to do it is a sensible disabled people into work, is it not a bit rich for Tory way forward. Instead, the Government are making it MPs to be lecturing disabled people to get a job? easier for childminders to set up in business, breaking down the barriers, and introducing £1,200 per child per Mike Penning: Nobody is lecturing anybody apart year of tax reliefs on the money that parents spend on from Labour Members who have selective memory loss child care. about the past 13 years. We will do everything we can. I am sure that the previous Administration did, but they Mr Speaker: I call Dr Thérèse Coffey. did not do it very well. 1073 Oral Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 1074
Public Bodies (Board Representation) including background, ethnicity and disability—a whole range of different characteristics—are also important. 7. Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): What To get truly high-functioning teams, we need diversity steps she is taking to increase the representation of in all its forms. women on the boards of public bodies. [900840] Pregnancy (Work Discrimination) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Jo Swinson): The Government have an 8. Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): What ambitious aim that 50% of new public appointees should recent assessment she has made of the number of cases be women by the end of this Parliament. We are of discrimination at work on the grounds of pregnancy. modernising recruitment practices and this approach is [900841] working. Our figures show that 37% of public appointments during 2012-13were women. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Jo Swinson): Discrimination against a Dr Coffey: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. woman because of pregnancy is totally unacceptable, Will she look into ensuring that head-hunters who are rightly illegal and bad business sense. employed by various Departments across Government are signed up to the voluntary code of conduct? The Equal Opportunities Commission’s 2005 report showed that, unfortunately, 30,000 women lost their Jo Swinson: My hon. Friend raises a very good point. jobs as a result of their pregnancy. As I outlined during The Government are working with 52 different firms the Children and Families Bill debates, we are now that have signed up to the voluntary code of conduct. considering how we could best obtain a more up-to-date Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary has picture of the current extent of this problem. appointed an experienced diversity champion, Charlotte Sweeney, to review the effectiveness of the code and Heidi Alexander: I thank the Minister for her forthright report back to him in the new year. My hon. Friend is answer. Research by the law firm Slater & Gordon has right to raise the issue of Departments that employ found that only 3% of women who believe that they head-hunting firms for public appointments, but it is suffered discrimination because of being pregnant had made absolutely clear that one of the key attributes that actually sought legal advice. Does the Minister accept they need to look for is diversity. that charging women £1,200 to take a case to an employment tribunal will make it even less likely that Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): such discrimination will be challenged? Will the Minister confirm whether Labour’s target that 50% of new appointments should be women has continued, Jo Swinson: I understand the hon. Lady’s concern and whether the Government have removed the targets and I think we should all be worried about the issue, but to increase the number of ethnic minorities and people I do not think it helps to suggest that any woman who with disabilities in public appointments? wants to take a case will be charged £1,200. That figure is only for cases that reach a hearing, which are a small Jo Swinson: It is very important that we address proportion of the overall number. It costs much less—only diversity in all its forms. Sadly, the previous Government £250—to lodge a case in the first place. There is also a did not achieve the aim of women comprising 50% of significant fee remission and costs will often be rewarded all new appointments. We are working towards achieving if there are problems. It is important that we do not that by the end of this Parliament, but I think we all scare off people from making claims, because we want agree that we need to do more. The hon. Lady is to make sure that we crack down on rogue employers absolutely right to say that other areas of diversity, who discriminate against pregnant women. 1075 31 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 1076
Business of the House levies, even though he introduced 60% of them. He cannot even tell us which ones he wants to cut. Will the Leader of the House tell the Prime Minister to stop 10.32 am standing up for the wrong people and vote with us next Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of week to freeze energy prices and reset this failing market? the House give us the business for next week? I note that the private Member’s Bill on the EU referendum returns to the House on 8 November. The The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Electoral Commission said this week that the question Lansley): The business for next week is as follows: in the Bill risks causing a misunderstanding and it MONDAY 4NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the National suggested a change of wording. The Leader of the Insurance Contributions Bill. House will be aware that, when the Electoral Commission recommended a change to the Scottish referendum TUESDAY 5NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Gambling question, the then Secretary of State for Scotland said: (Licensing and Advertising) Bill, followed by general debate on the reform and infrastructure of the water “The UK Government has always acted on the advice of the industry and consumer bills. The subject for this debate Electoral Commission for every previous referendum.” was nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. Given that the Bill was written in No. 10 and is supported by the Prime Minister, will the Leader of the House WEDNESDAY 6NOVEMBER—Opposition day [10th allotted day]. There will be a debate entitled “Energy Price confirm that the Government will table the appropriate Freeze”. The debate will arise on an Opposition motion, amendment to the referendum question in the Bill? followed by a motion relating to explanatory statements In January, the Prime Minister went to Davos and on amendments to Bills. told the world that the UK would use its presidency of THURSDAY 7NOVEMBER—A debate relating to the G8 to tackle tax evasion. Last week, he could not standardised packaging of tobacco products. The subject tell my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston for this debate was nominated by the Backbench Business (Seema Malhotra) why he had refused to close the Committee, followed by general debate relating to the £500 million eurobond tax loophole. On Monday, we commemoration of the first world war. discovered that the flagship agreement to recoup tax from UK residents who hide money in Swiss bank FRIDAY 8NOVEMBER—Private Members’ Bills. accounts has brought in more than £2 billion less than The provisional business for the week commencing the Chancellor scored in last year’s autumn statement. 11 November will include: The Chair of the Public Accounts Committee says that MONDAY 11 NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Offender £35 billion is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Rehabilitation Bill [Lords], followed by a debate on a the money that the Government have lost to tax scams. reasoned opinion relating to the regulation of new Why, then, have the Government appointed as head psychoactive substances. of tax policy a man who is on record as saying that TUESDAY 12 NOVEMBER—Opposition day [11th allotted “taxation is legalised extortion”? Is it any wonder that, day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. despite the meaningless ministerial PR, the tax gap Subject to be announced. keeps on growing and Tory donors are laughing all the way to their kitchen suppers in Downing street? I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for Thursday 7 November The coalition agreement promised to will be a debate on the fifth report of the Energy and “put a limit on the number on Special Advisers.” Climate Change Committee, “Energy prices, profits It has just emerged that there has been a 50% rise in the and poverty”, followed by a debate on the fourth report last three years, costing a record £7.2 million. The of the Transport Committee, “Cost of motor insurance: Deputy Prime Minister has 19 special advisers in his whiplash”. office alone, which is nearly 20% of the total. Does the Leader of the House agree that that is a complete waste Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for of money? [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] It seems that announcing next week’s business. I also welcome him there is agreement across the House on that. back to his place. I hope he has fully recuperated. The only thing that appears to be going up faster The Offender Rehabilitation Bill has finally reappeared than energy prices under this Government is the cost of after I raised its mysterious absence three times and special advisers, which has gone up by a massive 16% after yesterday’s Opposition-day debate. Will the Leader this year. There are now 98 special advisers in the of the House tell us whether the Government accept or Government, but the more of them there are, the more intend to remove the Lords amendment to clause 1 that incompetent the Government seem to become. This would require them to seek the approval of both Houses week, the Department for Work and Pensions lost its before they continue to push ahead with their reckless appeal in the Supreme Court on its flagship back to plans to privatise the probation service? work scheme, the Health Secretary was humiliated in A report published by Age UK this week warned that the Court of Appeal over Lewisham hospital and the 3 million elderly people are worried about whether they Government had to slow down universal credit for the will be able to stay warm in their homes this winter. third time and apply the brakes to disability benefit However, all the Government do is act as a mouthpiece changes. Yesterday, they could not even write an amendment for the big six energy companies, which are profiteering to our Opposition motion on education that was in at everybody’s expense. It has been more than a month order. We then had the spectacle of the Minister for since we announced our plan to freeze energy prices Schools winding up the debate on teaching robustly in until 2017 and all the Government do is dither. The support of the Government and then abstaining on the Prime Minister says that he wants to roll back green vote. Will the Leader of the House therefore make time 1077 Business of the House31 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 1078 for a debate on the mounting evidence that this Government end of the debate on 8 November, we will be smiling, have abandoned all notion of collective responsibility not the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). and are descending into chaos and incoherence? That Bill is a matter for its promoter, my hon. Friend Today is All Hallows’ eve and children across the the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton). country will be dressing up as the Deputy Prime Minister It was rather an own goal by the shadow Leader of to scare their friends. I just hope that they do not do the House to talk about tax avoidance. Not only are the what he does—promise treats, but hand out tricks instead. Government taking measures that are delivering a substantial increase in tax revenue—when compared Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the shadow Leader of to our predecessors—from those who would otherwise the House, not least for her kind words after my back seek to avoid or evade tax, but today my right hon. operation. Indeed, even when I was not in the Chamber, Friend the Prime Minister will announce, as reflected in she kindly said some nice things. I am quite pleased a written ministerial statement to the House by the about this back operation; it has got me up and about Business Secretary, that we are going to proceed with a and I have the picture to prove that my backbone is register of company beneficial ownership that will be intact—a useful thing in this life. When I was away, the accessible to the public. That is important not only in shadow Leader of the House said that she was pleased this country but across the world to establish who owns she would get to find out what the Deputy Leader of what, and who is therefore liable for taxation. the House, who sits alongside me, was thinking. Of In the business that I announced, I was almost tempted course, I always knew what he was thinking while I to pre-empt the 12 November Opposition-day debate; answered questions, and we now know the truth. He is no doubt it will be on energy price freezes again, but it thinking, “I know the answer to this one”. He demonstrated ought to be on the economy, as that is the issue. I have that when he did an admirable job in answering questions not been here for the past two weeks, but it was fascinating while I was away. listening to business questions and Prime Minister’s The shadow Leader of the House asked a number of questions. Labour Members do not want to talk about times about the Offender Rehabilitation Bill, which will employment because we have had record employment come before the House for Second Reading. In fact, I figures. They do not want to talk about the economy think three Bills came from the Lords at much the same because figures last Friday demonstrated that the economy time, and the Offender Rehabilitation Bill will be the is growing at a faster rate than at any time since 2008. first to be debated in this House. We will consider what [Interruption.] The supposedly silent one—the Opposition we need to do but, as was made clear in the other place, Deputy Chief Whip, the hon. Member for Tynemouth our intention is to press ahead with a reform that will (Mr Campbell)—talks about the cost of living. I would enable a large number of offenders with a sentence of be happy to have a debate on the cost of living, because, less than 12 months to secure rehabilitation for the first under this Government, 25 million basic rate taxpayers time, and bring down the scandalous level of reoffending will be £700 better off than they were under the Labour among those who have been prisoners. It is important Government; 3 million people have been taken out of to get on with that, which is what we are doing. income tax altogether; fuel duty is 13p per litre lower than it would have been under Labour; and there is The shadow Leader of the House asked about energy support from the Government so that councils can prices, notwithstanding that my right hon. Friend the freeze their taxes through the life of this Parliament, Energy Secretary will make a statement in a few minutes. when, under the previous Labour Government, council The hon. Lady should reflect, however, on the apparent taxes doubled. We delivered the biggest ever cash increase utter confusion on her own side during this week’s in the state pension last year. Those are the things the business in this House and the other place. The Leader Government are doing to support people with the cost of the Opposition stood here and said that he cares of living. We will continue to do so. about trying to bring down energy bills, while Labour Members in the other place were voting for a Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): My right hon. Friend decarbonisation target that would have added £125 to will recall that, some time ago, he kindly agreed to ask the bill of every household. Labour Members cannot the chief executive of the Independent Parliamentary have it both ways; they cannot complain about increases Standards Authority to meet me. After three and a half in bills when the Leader of the Opposition—as Energy years of waiting, I am still very much persona non Secretary before the last election—wanted to increase grata. The disgraceful chairman and chief executive costs through the renewable heat incentive, including a seem to believe that smearing and slandering an individual £179 hit on gas bills. Member of the House as hysterical—among other vulgar Labour cannot have it both ways, and the so-called and untrue insults—is an acceptable modus operandi. price freeze is not a price freeze but a price con. My The situation has reached an impasse. If a Member of right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will demonstrate Parliament finds that there is no direct redress or recourse that the Government are doing what needs to be done in an ongoing issue with IPSA, despite numerous and introducing to the market competition that did not correspondence, e-mails and phone calls, and despite exist when we came to office. We are getting the lowest interventions from both the Leader of the House and tariffs available for customers, and doing everything we the party’s Chief Whip, please will my right hon. Friend can to ensure efficiency and low costs to people, while advise what option is left open to that Back Bencher to delivering on our energy security, environmental and secure a professional and equitable conclusion from that carbon reduction targets. inept, discredited and wholly unfit-for-purpose organisation? The hon. Lady asked questions, perfectly reasonably, Mr Lansley: Although my hon. Friend will understand about the Bill for consideration on Friday 8 November, if I do not comment on the points he makes on his case but that is a private Member’s Bill, not a Government with IPSA, I suggested directly to the chief executive Bill—[Interruption.] I will laugh if I like. I think at the that my job could be to facilitate a meeting on a without 1079 Business of the House31 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 1080
[Mr Lansley] right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), the former Prime Minister, describing prejudice basis between him and my hon. Friend. I himself as “an ex-politician”. How can someone be a continue to believe that that is the right way to proceed. Member of this House and an ex-politician at the same IPSA has important responsibilities in relation to all time? hon. Members, and it should be prepared to discuss and account for the way in which it discharges those Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will understand responsibilities to hon. Members. I reiterate my offer to that I cannot account for the views of the former Prime my hon. Friend and the IPSA chief executive. I am Minister. “Politician” is an interesting description, but happy to facilitate and be present at a meeting at which as Members of Parliament we are all here with a they discuss, on a without prejudice basis, their concerns. responsibility to represent our constituents, both in the constituency and—in my view—here in Westminster. Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): Tuesday will mark another first for the Backbench Business Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): The Committee: for the first time, we will have representation Bill to pardon Alan Turing completed its passage through from a member of the minority parties, in the form of the Lords yesterday. Can the Leader of the House the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete assure me that, as in the Lords, the Government will Wishart). Will the Leader of the House take the opportunity leave the decision to Parliament and not seek to oppose to welcome him to the Committee, but also pledge to the Bill? review, as soon as possible, the status of minority parties on the Committee, so that they can have full voting Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend is right that the Bill rights, as every other member of the Committee has? completed its progress in the other place yesterday and it will in due course come here. I would expect that the Mr Lansley: I join the hon. Lady in welcoming the view the Government took in the other place will be prospect of the attendance of the hon. Member for reflected here too. Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) at the Backbench Business Committee. I very much enjoy my opportunities Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): I recently met a to attend. I am a silent one in the Committee, but I GP in my constituency who described how resources listen carefully. It is a good way of understanding the were being wasted on health tourists, but his concerns views and interests of the House for debate. The Backbench were ignored when he reported them to the immigration Business Committee has admirably demonstrated that services. I know that the Immigration Bill is making it is possible to schedule sittings on, effectively, a non- progress, but does the Leader of the House agree that partisan and consensual basis, reflecting views of Members health tourism deserves a debate in its own right? on both sides of the House. That is a very good basis on which to involve the minority parties and ensure that Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman makes an important the views of the House as a whole are heard. The point, and it is why, when I was Secretary of State for membership of the Committee is a matter not for me, Health, I instituted a review, which reported in the but for the Procedure Committee. I would be happy to middle of last year. That review is the basis on which facilitate any review by that Committee to that effect. the Government are proceeding with the Immigration Bill, and there will be occasions to debate that issue Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): You will know, during the progress of the legislation. Mr Speaker, that Burton upon Trent is the home not only of British beer, but of the England football team at Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): May we have a St George’s park. Football fans throughout England debate on early-day motion 598? are looking forward to cheering on Roy’s boys in Brazil next year. There is no better way to do so than when [That this House notes that World Polio Day is on enjoying a pint in the local pub, but, because of Britain’s 24 October 2013; further notes that within five years licensing laws and the time difference, many people will polio, like smallpox, can be eradicated across the world; be unable to watch the football and enjoy a pint at the recognises that in the last 25 years cases are down 99 per same time. Therefore, may we have a debate on UK cent with 2.5 billion vulnerable children reached through licensing laws and exemptions, to give some cheer to vaccination programmes which offer a blueprint for cost- England football fans and put some money in the effective, targeted and outcomes-driven international public pockets of Britain’s publicans? health intervention; further notes that just three countries, from an original 125, now have endemic polio – Nigeria, Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important Pakistan and Afghanistan; understands that vaccination point. Fortunately, he has done so in good time for his programmes must focus on these countries to eradicate proposal to be considered before the World cup finals— the disease and prevent its return elsewhere; further recognises while I was laid up, one of my pleasures was watching the contribution of more than 50,000 British Rotarians England play Poland. I will raise the matter with my towards a polio-free world through their volunteering and hon. Friends at the Home Office, because there have £20 million fundraising contribution; realises that the been occasions in the past when it has been thought funding gap for this final effort to eradicate polio is a appropriate to have exemptions to licensing arrangements tangible £620 million; appreciates that the Government to recognise the time at which such major sporting has contributed a world-leading £600 million towards events take place. eradicating polio to date; and calls on the Government to help finish the job of creating a polio-free world by Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): continuing to commit funding, maintaining the UK’s May we have a debate about the membership of this commitment to the World Health Organisation, Rotary House? We now have the incredible spectacle of the International, CDC and Unicef’s Global Polio Eradication 1081 Business of the House31 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 1082
Initiative and associated Polio Eradication and Endgame are important to Members across the House, and that Strategic Plan 2013-18 and ensuring the UK’s continued they will benefit from consultation before we proceed global leadership role through seeking support from with Second Reading and consideration of the Bill. international bodies, governments, non-governmental organisations, corporations and the wider general public Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The sister of my to help eradicate this disease once and for all.] constituent Gemma was murdered last year in Blackpool That would enable the House to reflect on the £600 million in the most horrific circumstances. During the court the Government have already given to eradicating polio; case, the murderer consistently referred to Gemma’s on the fact that we could eradicate it completely, as we sister as “it”. May we have a statement or a debate on have smallpox, within five years; and on the fact that what the Government are doing to tackle the objectification Rotarians across the country have raised £20 million of women and girls? through voluntary efforts to eradicate polio. This is a once-in-a-civilisation opportunity to eradicate polio once Mr Lansley: I am sure the House will want to join me and for all. May we have a debate in which we can in expressing sympathy with the hon. Lady’s constituent. commit to eradicating polio in our lifetime? I think I remember the case. If I may, I will ask my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to respond. We have Mr Lansley: I have read early-day motion 598, which published a strategy and taken a wide range of measures highlighted world polio day last week. I cannot promise to tackle violence against women. I will ask her to time immediately, but it would be appropriate to discuss respond to this particular point. this issue either through the Backbench Business Committee or in an Adjournment debate. It is very important that Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): When the Transparency we achieve this aim, but it is fraught with risk, because of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning and Trade Union of the circumstances we have seen most recently in Administration Bill returns to Parliament, will there be Syria, where the breakdown of the health infrastructure scope and time for a full and proper debate into the as a consequence of the conflict has led to an outbreak principles at stake and the circumstances that have of polio. We have to achieve polio eradication alongside emerged from Labour’s inquiry into the Falkirk selection getting health services into places such as Syria that do process? [Interruption.] not have them at the moment.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): This week Tata Steel Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend raises an interesting announced 500 job losses nationally, of which 340 will point. Opposition Members may shout, but the relationship be in my constituency. May we have a statement or a between the Labour party and the trade unions could debate on what the Government are doing to support have been addressed in the Bill. I invited the Leader of the steel industry and steel workers at this time? the Opposition to do that and he did not even have the courtesy to reply. It is not too late. Measures could be introduced by the Opposition to regularise the relationship Mr Lansley: I cannot immediately offer a debate, but between trade unions and political parties on political I will discuss this with my right hon. and hon. Friends funds. Frankly, all I have seen of the investigation at in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Falkirk suggests that, contrary to the right hon. Gentleman’s They, along with Tata, recognise the strategic importance protestations, he did not investigate. He is not creating a of that company to the United Kingdom and have new relationship and he is not dealing with the issues together developed a joint Her Majesty’s Government-Tata inside the Labour party and the trade unions. He still Steel strategy to support the business and ensure that it continues to dance to Unite’s tune. is in the right position to support our growing economy in the future and to enable our competitiveness. Any redundancies are very regrettable, and we feel very much Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): The for the difficult time that the work force is experiencing. Leader of the House will know that a general election is Jobcentre Plus and its rapid response service will be due in Bangladesh in a few months. May we have a available and will do all it can to help to support those statement from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office workers. on what we and our allies in the European Union are doing to assist the Government party and the main Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I Opposition party, but not their Islamist allies, to ensure have never doubted my right hon. Friend’s backbone. that free and fair elections take place again? Will he tell the House when we can expect Second Reading of the Water Bill? It contains important provisions Mr Lansley: If my recollection is correct, I believe I on competition and will have a big impact on customer heard Foreign Office Ministers refer to this matter bills and Flood Re insurance. There is enormous interest during Foreign Office questions. I will check if that is in the Backbench Business Committee debate next week, the case. If it is not, I will talk to them and ensure that which unfortunately clashes with the Select Committee they write to the hon. Gentleman and consider at what on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but I am sure point it might be appropriate to make a written statement we would all like to know when Second Reading will to the House. take place. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): We all enjoy Mr Lansley: I recognise the interest, which is reflected the contribution from the shadow Leader of the House, in the acceptance of the debate by the Backbench but this week she made a good point about the number Business Committee. I cannot tell my hon. Friend when of special advisers in the Government. If she is right Second Reading will be. She will understand that we set that there are 19 special advisers in the Office of the out to publish draft measures on flood insurance, which Deputy Prime Minister, that, quite frankly, is a disgrace. 1083 Business of the House31 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 1084
[Mr Philip Hollobone] them and one rule for everyone else taking the cuts. A debate would allow us to test whether the Deputy Prime May we have a statement on how many special advisers Minister genuinely needs 19 special advisers and why we the Deputy Prime Minister has and when he plans to have a record number of special advisers, given that in cut that number? opposition they were so opposed to the growth in their number. Mr Lansley: I apologise to the shadow Leader of the House for not answering that point. My recollection is Mr Lansley: The coalition agreement made it clear that last week the limit on the number of special advisers that we would set a limit on the number of special was further reiterated by my colleagues at the Cabinet advisers, and we are doing that, but it is also important Office. If I may say so—this will not make me popular to recognise, as has been demonstrated properly in the with my hon. Friend—it has to be understood that civil service reform plan, the need not only for civil coalition Government creates special circumstances and service advice, but for access to external and independent a necessity for independent sources of advice to the two sources of advice. Excellent and necessary though its parties working together in coalition. role is as part of the infrastructure of advice and delivery, the civil service does not have a monopoly of Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): It is extraordinary wisdom. We need further advice as well. that in one week two decisions by Secretaries of State have been held by the courts to be legally flawed. May Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I we have a statement on whether they acted against civil have said previously in the Chamber that the business of servants’ and legal advice, and could the legal costs be business is business and the business of government is published? creating an environment where business can thrive. Unemployment is now down to 2.8% in my constituency. Mr Lansley: The case of the back-to-work scheme May we have a debate about the heroic efforts of businesses demonstrated that the Government were operating on in my constituency and across the country, which have the basis of thoroughly sound principles, and it was created 1.4 million new private sector jobs since the last important for that to be established. On Lewisham, I general election? understand perfectly what my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary did and why he did it, and I think he Mr Lansley: I congratulate my hon. Friend, and I am was right to pursue the issue, because the relevant sure that his constituents share his pride in what they legislation, which we did not introduce, was not clear. are achieving in employment creation and the wealth The unsustainable providers regime was established in creation that goes with it. That is exactly what we are primary legislation under the previous Government, here to encourage. Throughout this Parliament, the but unfortunately it was not clear, so it was important extent of new job creation has been encouraging, but it to get that clarity by taking the case further. is especially encouraging that we have now turned the corner and restored some of the growth lost in the Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I am delighted that the recession created in Downing street under the last Prime Minister has announced today that companies Government. must publish and make public details of who owns and controls them. In the interests of further transparency, Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ will the Leader of the House make time for a debate on Co-op): Will the Leader of the House find time for a demolishing the firewall between the taxpayer and private debate on police funding for our capital cities? I ask companies holding Government and local authority that in the light of some very odd answers I have contracts by requiring them to meet the requirements of received on policing funding for Cardiff, including one the Freedom of Information Act for those parts of their in which the Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and business paid for by taxpayers’ money? Victims said he had had meetings with a wide range of international partners on the issue. I appreciate that we Mr Lansley: I entirely understand my hon. Friend’s are rivals in rugby and football, but I would not have point—I recall the issue of private companies providing thought the Severn estuary too wide a gulf for him to health care services paid for by the NHS—but it would cross. be intensely difficult simply to apply the Freedom of Information Act to private companies and to draw clear Mr Lansley: If I may, I will ask the policing Minister distinctions between those parts of their activities to to respond directly to the hon. Gentleman, because I which public money relates and those to which it does cannot interpret that answer. not. That is why the public sector, when procuring services, makes clear in contractual provisions the Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) requirement for proper transparency and openness about (Con): A couple of days ago, as the Leader of the the nature of the contracts and services being provided House is aware, we had an enormous conference between to the public. British and French chambers of commerce to show that we were working together on a lot of energy projects. Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): On Total was there; Arriva was there; EDF was obviously special advisers, the Leader of the House’s answers to there. May we have a debate on the importance of the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) and to cross-channel inward investment? We have just heard the shadow Leader of the House were complacent. All about unemployment in the UK. This is a chance for us over central Government, Ministers are bearing down to show that this country is serious about our infrastructure on spending Departments, yet when it comes to their and welcomes foreign investment through our chambers own personal support, it appears there is one rule for of commerce. 1085 Business of the House31 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 1086
Mr Lansley: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. decisions. I personally find it astonishing that the Welsh Government Members are supporting investment in Administration thought it appropriate to abolish parking infrastructure, although we wonder about those on the charges— Opposition Benches. This is not just a Government-to- Government thing; it is an area in which businesses can David Wright: My constituency is not in Wales. work together, and I am delighted that my old friends in the chambers of commerce are working with their Mr Lansley: I know. I am just making the contrast. If counterparts in France in this way. the hon. Gentleman thinks it appropriate to abolish those charges, he will have to find the money from Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): somewhere else. In Wales, they have cut the money for Last week, the Prime Minister failed to answer my patient services and care in order to subsidise car parking, question about why the Government had failed to close and that cannot be the right decision. the £500 million eurobond tax loophole. Yesterday, the former Chancellor, Lord Lawson, accused the Government Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): A recent report by the of “getting nowhere” on corporate tax avoidance and TaxPayers Alliance showed that one fifth of house said that the UK should take the lead on the issue. purchases in my constituency last year were subject to Given the importance of the issue for Britain, may we stamp duty of more than £7,500, and that is projected have an urgent debate on the Government’s progress to rise to more than 41% of purchases in the next five and on their unwillingness to explain why they choose years. May we have a debate on the reform of stamp to leave loopholes open? duty?
Mr Lansley: I would have thought that our introduction Mr Lansley: It will not surprise my hon. Friend to of the general anti-abuse rule, the fact that our Second learn that stamp duty land tax is an important source of Reading debate on the National Insurance Contributions revenue; it raises several billion pounds each year. It is Bill next Monday will cover the extension of anti-abuse important to consider how best we can support the legislation into national insurance, and our announcement housing market, and we have taken action in relation to today of the registration of beneficial company ownership first-time buyers. There are also effective ways of doing all demonstrated that we were taking further steps this through Help to Buy and the NewBuy guarantee beyond the many already taken by the Treasury to scheme, among others. This is of course something that deliver on the reduction of tax avoidance. we continue to look at.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): This week, Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), alert the Leader of the House to the fact that quite a who is no longer in her place, published an important rare creature is wandering around the parliamentary report on the need for transparency and genuinely estate this morning in the form of Sir David Attenborough. independent powers of review in the NHS in England. He is here to launch the crowdfunding initiative on flora Will the Leader of the House schedule a debate on her and fauna to save the gorillas. Did the right hon. report, so as to enable Welsh MPs, many of whose Gentleman know that at a press conference this morning constituents are treated in English hospitals, to make it will be announced that tomorrow is a national the case for the same approach to transparency and crowdfunding day? May we have an early debate on the genuinely independent review in Wales? importance of crowdfunding for the renaissance of the communities of this country?
Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend is right to welcome, as I Mr Lansley: I was not aware of that, and I am do, the right hon. Lady’s report on complaints. I hope grateful to the hon. Gentleman for alerting me and the that it will be taken up by the NHS not only in England House to this fact. The hon. Gentleman may like to but in Wales, not least because of the circumstances raise the matter again in Treasury questions on Tuesday, that gave rise to her serious concerns. I hope that the as the Treasury will be interested. Members of all NHS in Wales will recognise that the NHS in England is parties might find this interesting, too, so they could making changes in regard to listening and responding together ask the Backbench Business Committee whether to complaints, and that it will emulate the steps we are time could be found in Westminster Hall for a debate on taking to deliver services on which patients can rely. these issues. Cutting the budget in Wales, as Labour is doing, is undermining the delivery of those services. James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): A report published yesterday by Invest Black Country David Wright (Telford) (Lab): The Shrewsbury and in conjunction with the West Midlands Economic Forum Telford Hospital NHS Trust is increasing parking charges showed that over the last two years exports by the west at the two main hospital sites in Shropshire. I am midlands have grown by 30%—a better performance against parking charges at hospitals—they are a charge than any other region of the UK. May we have a debate on the sick—and is not this the wrong time to introduce on the continuing need to support the encouraging such increases anyway? May we have a debate on the signs of economic growth in areas such as the black cost of living, in that context? country, part of which I represent?
Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will know that Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend illustrates a very impressive parking charges at hospitals in England are a matter record of export promotion in the black country and for the individual trusts. In Wales, this is a devolved the west midlands generally. We have done very well in matter and the relevant bodies can make their own increasing exports to some of the emerging markets and 1087 Business of the House31 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 1088
[Mr Lansley] shops and other retailers, especially when new goods are sold and the charities are acting as full-blown retailers key markets for the future—China, India, Brazil and in their own right? Russia, for example. We need to do more, however, because exports have been depressed, not least because Mr Lansley: I will not venture too far into this of difficulties in the eurozone. The Government will subject, but many charities are, of course, retailers in a look continuously to try to emulate the success of the substantial way. Just the other day I was talking to west midlands, to which my hon. Friend referred. representatives of the British Heart Foundation. It has 700 shops all over the country, which provide an important Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): basis for much of its work. However, I will ask my It is a national disgrace that more than 350,000 people colleagues at the Department for Communities and have had to turn to a food bank over the past six Local Government to reflect on what the hon. Gentleman months. The Prime Minister has said twice from the has said, and to respond to it. Dispatch Box that this is because, under his Government, jobcentres are referring people to food banks. According Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): This week. the “Lonely to the many written answers I have received from Work Planet” guide ranked Yorkshire as the third best region and Pensions Ministers on this subject, however, that is in the world. Given the countryside of the Dales, the simply not happening. The DWP has not been able to brand-new retail development in Leeds—with more to confirm how many jobcentres are doing this in practice come—the Grand Départ and, apparently, the fact that or how officials decide whether someone is in need of it contains more Michelin-starred restaurants than anywhere emergency food aid. May we please have an urgent else outside London, may we have a debate to prove debate on this matter, on the wider causes of food that Yorkshire is not just the third but, indeed, God’s poverty and on what the Government are going to do to own county? stop the scandal of our people going to bed hungry? Mr Lansley: I think that the House will be staggered Mr Lansley: First, it is a fact that Jobcentre Plus is by the effrontery of suggesting that Yorkshire is the signposting people to food banks, whereas the previous third best county. We all know that it must be the Government decided before the election that they would second best, after Cambridgeshire. not do that. That is a positive thing to do. More food banks are being established—locally and more widely. It is important to offer that help. If people are in Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): My hon. Friend hardship, resources and funds are available to support the Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) and them, and it is important for them to access the discretionary the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) are hardship funds. right: we do need a debate on the Government’s special adviser job creation scheme. It is not just about the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I have two quantity, but about the quality as well. For the last immigration cases in my constituency, one relating to couple of years, the Education Secretary has maintained the Mashongamhende family and the other to the Tapela as his special adviser a semi-house-trained polecat who family. Both families have been in the UK for many runs secret, private e-mail accounts to conduct Government years. Despite numerous letters, direct telephone calls business, and runs an anonymous Twitter account on to the UK Border Agency and a personal meeting with which he abuses even members of his own party. Would the Home Secretary in July, both these cases are still not a debate bring the issue into the full sunshine of unresolved. May we have a statement from the Home parliamentary scrutiny? Secretary on the cost, inefficiency and delays of the UK Border Agency? In particular, when can I expect my Mr Lansley: I am only staggering to my feet because two cases to be resolved? I am astonished by the effrontery of the Labour party in suggesting that special advisers might be behaving in Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend has rightly and typically a semi-house-trained way. What is happening under this been diligent in support of his constituents, and I know Government bears no comparison with what happened they will appreciate that. As he knows, the Home Office under the last Government. is fully aware of those cases and is seeking to make progress on them. I will get the Home Office to respond Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): There has further to my hon. Friend; it is seized of the importance been a sharp increase in the fly-grazing of often badly of doing so. More generally, the House has heard very malnourished horses, with a particular concentration in positive statements from the Home Secretary about Alton, which is in my constituency. May we have a how she has reshaped the Border Agency for the future, debate on this so that we can determine how local turning it around as compared with the past. It is still authorities can be given effective power to deal with early days when it comes to the progress that we all fly-grazing quickly? want to see, but I know that my right hon. Friend is bending every effort to ensure that we make such progress. Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend may wish to apply to the Backbench Business Committee—along with Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): A number of colleagues—or to seek an Adjournment debate, because charity shops in my constituency sell new goods in the issue is important. There is legislation that can be direct competition with other retailers, yet they pay a used, but there are unscrupulous owners who are fly-grazing reduced business rate. May we have a debate on the horses and putting landowners at considerable risk as a need to create a level playing field between charity consequence. 1089 Business of the House31 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 1090
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): May we have a debate of politics in Northern Ireland, which I understand is in Government time on Government procrastination? set to report by the end of this year. Will the Leader of the House tell us when that report is likely to be Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): At some time in published and whom it will be sent to, and may we have the future. [Laughter.] a debate on the matters Dr Haass raises and his recommendations? Chris Bryant: Yes, we got that joke. Mr Lansley: We welcome the establishment of the Earlier today, the Secretary of State for Culture, all-party group in Northern Ireland considering these Media and Sport said that it would take up to 12 months issues, and we are very glad that Dr Richard Haass is to create the recognising body for the press regulatory chairing the talks; he does so with great ability. My right organisation. That means that in the next eight to hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland 10 weeks at least one body, and probably two, will be met Dr Haass for the third time this week and gives that seeking recognition, and there will be no one to recognise process her full support. As my hon. Friend knows, the them. Should we not get this up and running a little bit process itself is owned by the Northern Ireland political faster? parties, not the Government, so it will be for them to decide when and what to publish, but that will be of Mr Lansley: The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s great interest to Members across the House and I know question is no. We will not need a debate, because there my right hon. Friend will ensure that my hon. Friend is no necessity for it. and others in the House are informed about the progress of the talks. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): On 4 October, The Guardian published in minute detail the techniques Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Ind): May I add my used by the intelligence services to apprehend those voice to those who have asked for a debate on the who use the Tor network—the so-called dark internet—to national health service? Last year there were 5.3 million commit, anonymously, serious online crimes, including admissions to A and E, an increase of 47% over 15 years, crimes involving child pornography. May we have a which is totally unsustainable. Perhaps we can look at debate on the impact of those Guardian reports on the one of the reasons why this is happening, which is to do combating of serious crime in the United Kingdom? with access to GP services in the evenings and at weekends—unbelievably, people do get ill at these times. Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend has been rightly assiduous We need to look at the whole of the national health in pursuing this issue. I entirely share the Prime Minister’s service so people get the service they deserve. view that The Guardian not least, but others as well, should reflect on the damage that could have been done Mr Lansley: I hope that before too long the House to the UK’s safety and security by the undermining of will have an opportunity to hear from my right hon. those whose job is to keep us safe. Friend the Health Secretary about the further measures My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) he is taking that will have a positive impact this winter, has secured a three-hour debate in Westminster Hall on both in relation to supporting general practitioners in oversight of the intelligence and security services. It will looking after patients in the community, rather than take place this afternoon, and will afford my hon. admitting them to hospital, and in using the integration Friend an opportunity to make exactly those points. funds the Chancellor set out in his spending review— £3.8 billion to enable local authorities and the NHS to Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): May work together to ensure community services are there we have a debate on the cold weather payment? It starts and are effective in minimising the number of emergency tomorrow, and will allow many of our constituents who admissions to hospital. are receiving certain benefits to receive £25 if the Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): North East temperature falls below zero for seven consecutive days. Lincolnshire council has just installed speed cameras to Such a debate would also allow us to publicise the fact enforce a 30 miles-per-hour limit on one of the main that it is this Government who have made the payment roads between Cleethorpes and Grimsby, which is a permanent, and the last Government who had budgeted pedestrian-free road with a wall either side of it. The to cut it. council claims this is in line with Department for Transport guidelines, but a BBC reporter established the opposite. Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend is right. The last two Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement by winters have been relatively severe, and in each of them a Transport Minister to clarify what the guidelines are? there have been substantial such payments. I cannot promise an immediate debate, but if she catches Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will know that the process Mr Speaker’s eye she could further raise these points on of setting speed limits is a matter for local authorities, the annual energy statement which follows. That payment, notwithstanding that the Department for Transport the warm home discount and support through the cold provides them with guidance. The Secretary of State for weather plan I instituted two years ago, with a warm Transport and his colleagues will be here next Thursday, homes healthy people fund, are all helping people to be and my hon. Friend might like to raise that with them energy-efficient and to meet some of their bills in the then. Meanwhile, I will alert them to the point he winter. rightly raises.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Has my right hon. (Con): Earlier this week the Northern Ireland Affairs Friend seen my early-day motion 652 regarding youth Committee met Dr Haass who is undertaking a review services in Harlow? 1091 Business of the House31 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 1092
[Robert Halfon] services, Sharon Shoesmith, has agreed a six-figure payout for unfair dismissal. May we have a debate [That this House notes the remarkable work of youth about rewarding people for failure? organisations in Harlow and the value they give to the local community; further notes that they help young Mr Lansley: There should be no rewards for failure, people in need, and provide a range of services in education, in the public sector or in the private sector. We have skills, mentoring, sexual health services, sport, music, made it clear that legal devices such as non-disclosure culture and other related areas; thanks the Youth Council or compromise agreements should not be used to gag for the work it does promoting youth issues in Harlow; staff or brush under the carpet golden goodbyes to further notes the consultation announced by Essex Council senior staff. In this context, it is hard to see how about the future of youth services; and urges that youth Haringey council’s secretive actions can be in the public services in Harlow are protected from any future budget interest, given the large sum of taxpayers’ money involved reductions.] and the immense public concern arising from the baby Youth services in Harlow do remarkable work and P scandal. Bankrolling a state-sponsored cover-up must their future is uncertain because of a consultation by be a massive error of judgment on the part of Haringey Essex county council. Will my right hon. Friend do council, following earlier mishandling of the affair. everything possible, working with the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, to try to Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Will the Leader of the ensure youth services in Harlow are protected? House arrange for a debate or a statement on the sentencing powers for magistrates, so that we can find Mr Lansley: Once again my hon. Friend is taking up out if and when the Government intend to allow magistrates issues on behalf of his constituents in an admirable way. to sentence people to 12 months in prison, as opposed I completely understand the point he makes about the to six months at the moment? The law is in place and it importance of youth services, and all of us want to just needs activating. Such a debate or statement would ensure we maximise the support we give to young help to tease out the Government’s response, and that people because, as has been demonstrated, young people of other hon. Members, to Frances Crook and the not being in employment, education or training presents idiotic Howard League for Penal Reform, who believe a serious long-term risk to them and the country, so we that magistrates should not be allowed to send people need youth services to be effective. I will write to the to prison at all. Minister of State, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), Mr Lansley: I recall precisely the point that my hon. who is the Minister for civil society; I know that, with Friend raises, and I will ask my right hon. Friend the his new responsibilities in relation to young people, he Lord Chancellor to respond to him. I also gently point will want to respond positively. out to my hon. Friend that we will have questions to the Justice Secretary on 12 November, which may also Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): This week, we provide him with an opportunity to push forward this heard reports that the former head of Haringey children’s important point. 1093 31 OCTOBER 2013 Annual Energy Statement 1094
Annual Energy Statement driver of these energy price rises has been rising wholesale energy costs, not social and environmental policy. But apportioning blame is also scant comfort to people who 11.26 am are struggling to make ends meet. That is why we have The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change been taking action to help people and businesses struggling (Mr Edward Davey): Today, I am laying before the with their energy bills. House the annual energy statement, alongside the statutory We have already introduced some help that is immediate. security of supply report. This coalition Government Two million vulnerable households will get £135 off are putting in place the most coherent, sustainable their energy bill this winter, thanks to the Government’s energy policy the United Kingdom has ever had. We are warm home discount. Around 12.5 million pensioners creating one of the most competitive and attractive will get the winter fuel payment—£200 for the under-80s electricity investment markets in the world; improving and £300 for those over 80. And of course there are cold our energy security and affordability; and boosting weather payments if needed, which last year delivered home-grown clean energy, and providing jobs and economic over £146 million to help cut bills for the most vulnerable. growth in the process. This year we have added to these policies with more This ambitious energy and climate change policy is direct action. Our new big energy saving network is vital so that Britain can meet our significant challenges. training 500 volunteers to go out into communities to The coalition Government inherited from the previous help people get better deals from energy suppliers and Administration an energy future with a huge, multi-billion reduce their energy bills. These volunteers will be fully pound black hole at its heart, which was the result of supported. We know how much people in communities years of underinvestment, dithering and delay. So this across the country rely on the post office network, so we Government are having to take the tough decisions will be working with the Post Office to raise the profile others ducked to make sure that Britain’s lights do stay of the big energy saving network so that it can make the on. Everything we are doing has to ensure that we drive links with the elderly, the vulnerable and other cost- investment into the system, not scare it off or freeze it conscious families trying to make their budgets go out. But, as I will make clear in this statement, energy further. security must go hand in hand with affordability. We have also brought together in one place all the So let me set out the robust plans we have to deliver advice from across Government—from the Department affordable energy security. To deal with the problem of of Energy and Climate Change and the Department for tightening electricity margins up to 2018, the Government Work and Pensions—and from charities such as Age have been working with National Grid and Ofgem to UK and Citizens Advice. Today, I am writing to all develop existing safeguards, in order to have more electricity Members of this House with information about this available for the grid at peak times, including, if needed, new guide so that they can share it with their constituents, through the use of power plants currently mothballed. to make sure they are getting all the help to which they We are introducing to Britain a capacity market to are entitled. ensure that we attract the investment we need in new But while such immediate help for consumers and power stations. The first capacity market auction will companies is important, we need more permanent change take place next year—for delivery from the winter of if we are to keep bills down not just for 20 months, but 2018. In addition to those measures to keep the lights for 20 years and beyond. The energy company obligation on, Britain now has a long-term strategy encapsulated is delivering such permanent change by modernising in the Energy Bill. Over the summer, we published draft our housing stock and making it cheaper to heat our strike prices for renewable electricity under contracts homes. Some 230,000 low income households will be for difference. Detailed proposals for the implementation warmer this winter, thanks to energy efficiency measures of electricity market reform were published this month. already installed through the ECO. The fruits of bringing this greater predictability and Energy efficiency remains a central part of our strategy certainty to investment are already showing. Latest both to help the fuel poor and to deliver permanent estimates suggest that at least £35 billion has been energy savings, but the permanent energy change that invested in new electricity infrastructure since 2010, and we seek also needs more competitive markets. This, much more is in the pipeline. In the past 12 months however, is not something that the Opposition understand, alone, we have provided consent for seven major energy for the previous Government created the big six, and infrastructure applications worth about £20 billion, with their irresponsible policies would only help the big six. the capacity to generate electricity for more than 6 million In contrast, from day one, this coalition Government homes. That, of course, included last week’s announcement have been determined to take on the big six for that we have reached key commercial terms with EDF consumers—[Interruption.] The Opposition do not like for the first new nuclear power station in a generation at it. We have been taking on the big six for consumers Hinkley Point C. And there is more: through the Energy with the stick of competition. We have done a lot, but as Bill’s final investment decision enabling programme, I will set out, we need to do more. 23 applications for 26 investment contracts are currently Already our measures to deregulate have seen a major being evaluated by the Department of Energy and growth in the number and size of independent energy Climate Change for a broad range of renewable suppliers. In 2011 there was no independent supplier technologies, including onshore wind, offshore wind with a customer base greater than 50,000. Now we have and biomass projects. three independents with more than 100,000 customers, Even though British households pay some of the and a further eight companies have entered the market lowest prices for gas and electricity in Europe, such since May 2010. We have delivered a doubling of the facts are scant comfort to those who have seen energy number of independent energy suppliers offering prices rise considerably over the past 10 years. The main competition to Labour’s big six, and already hundreds 1095 Annual Energy Statement31 OCTOBER 2013 Annual Energy Statement 1096
[Mr Edward Davey] working closely with the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition and Markets Authority when it comes of thousands of people are benefiting, but we are doing into being. more. We are backing Ofgem’s reforms to help consumers The exact metrics for the review will be a matter for get better deals—market reforms to make sure that the regulators but I will ask them to look in depth and customers are on the lowest tariffs for them, are moved across the energy sector at profits and prices, barriers to off poor value dead tariffs, and no longer face the entry and consumer engagement. The Government have complex web of hundreds of tariffs designed more to equipped the regulators with strong powers to deal with confuse than to compete. unjustified barriers to competition. If abuses are found Our reforms are ensuring that people are given clearer, they must be addressed. more personalised information on their energy bills so We also need to ensure that the energy suppliers are that they can compare tariffs and switch more easily to open and honest about the profits they are making, so I save money. We are also promoting collective switching, have also asked Ofgem to deliver, again by spring next particularly aiming to ensure that the more vulnerable year, a full report on the transparency of the financial get to benefit from the best deals on the market. Today, accounts of the energy companies and ways that that however, I am challenging the industry to deliver faster could be improved, building on the work already completed switching. If someone can change their broadband by accountancy firm BDO. provider with a few clicks of the mouse, why should they not be able to do the same with their gas or Ofgem will publish its consultation on financial electric? It should not take five weeks for the change to transparency this afternoon, but the public need to take effect; 24-hour switching is my ambition. know that our reforms will have teeth and that companies that play outside the rules will be penalised and fined. First Utility has been out in front with its target of With our Energy Bill, Ofgem now has powers to require reaching 24-hour switching. Now E.ON, SSE and Scottish energy companies to make compensation payments directly Power and a number of independent suppliers, including to consumers who have lost out, but today I want to go Good Energy, Ovo and Co-operative Energy, have accepted further. That is why I intend to consult on the introduction my invitation for urgent talks over the next month on of criminal sanctions for anyone found manipulating how we can dramatically speed up switching. energy markets and harming the consumer interest. I want five-week switching to come down to one-week Ours is a record of delivery and action. As set out in switching, and then I want to go faster still. Let us be the annual energy statement—[Interruption.] clear that it will not happen overnight. We could announce 24-hour switching and then suppliers would say, “Okay, we’ll put up our prices to cover the cost”. That cannot Mr Speaker: Order. The remainder of the statement and will not happen. I want to talk to suppliers who can must be heard. Matters are not greatly assisted by the agree to and deliver a plan to speed up the process of fact that the statement is over-long. Frankly, a blue switching down to 24 hours, without increasing bills. pencil should have been deployed, as statements should take no longer than 10 minutes, but we must let the Companies that are interested in making things easier Secretary of State trundle towards his conclusion. for customers to switch are invited to come and see me, in addition to the others that have already agreed to do so. Our preference is to do that jointly with suppliers, Mr Davey: I am concluding, Mr Speaker. building on the good work of Energy UK, which has As set out in the annual statement, the Government raised ambition on the issue across the industry, but we are acting to help those most in need to keep warm this are prepared to take action, if required, to compel those winter and ensure that everybody gets a better deal who drag their heels. from the energy companies. We are also acting to deal I have also written to energy companies about direct with Labour’s energy crunch, filling in its energy black debits. I share concerns that they might be holding on hole with home-grown energy and bringing stability to significant credit balances when customers have overpaid and certainty to drive investment. That is our strategy through direct debits. I expect all suppliers to make for affordable energy security, a strategy to power the every effort to return money to customers with closed country, protect the planet and help keep bills affordable. accounts. I accept that that sometimes will not be I commend the statement to the House. possible, but, when it is not, my view is that credits should be applied directly to help the fuel poor and 11.40 am other vulnerable customers. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my right Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): Oh, dearie me. A hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory coherent energy policy? I must say that I feel for the Barker), will meet energy suppliers next week to discuss Secretary of State, because he has to deal with the fact that question and that of the level of credit balances that the Government’s energy policy is increasingly that energy companies are holding on to. being made at the Dispatch Box by a Prime Minister In our debates on energy bills, many have understandably who has completely lost the plot. I would like to thank asked whether competition is working in our energy him for early notice of his statement and its contents—on markets. Although the coalition has already done a Sky, on the BBC’s “Watchdog” last night and on the great deal to promote competition, we are ready to do “Today” programme this morning. more. As the Prime Minister announced last week, we The Secretary of State was meant to be making the now propose to introduce annual reviews of the state of annual energy statement, but what we heard today competition in the energy markets. The first of the new would be better described as the annual excuses competition assessments will be delivered by spring statement—excuses for why people’s bills are going up, next year. The assessment will be undertaken by Ofgem, excuses for why they are doing nothing about it, 1097 Annual Energy Statement31 OCTOBER 2013 Annual Energy Statement 1098 and excuses for why each and every time they give the “It’s encouraging that Ofgem is going full-speed ahead with companies what they want and leave consumers to foot these crucial reforms to the retail energy market.” the bill. Today we hear the Secretary of State saying that the The energy companies blame social and environmental Government will build on the BDO recommendations obligations for their price rises, so the Prime Minister on reform of the energy market, but the truth is that promises to roll them back. Threatened by Labour’s Ofgem ignored BDO’s recommendations and the price freeze and plans to reset the energy market, suddenly Government stood by it. the companies are clamouring for another review to We do not need another review: we need action. We kick the issue into the long grass. On Tuesday the chief need action to freeze people’s energy bills and fix this executive of E.ON told the Energy and Climate Change broken market; to break up the big six by ring-fencing Committee: their generation from supply; to put an end to secret “I believe that we need to have a thorough Competition deals and require all electricity to be bought and sold Commission investigation, supported by Ofgem, because they are via an open exchange; and to create a tough new the experts—they have been in the industry for a decade.” watchdog with the power to force these companies to Lo and behold, today the Government have given the cut their prices when wholesale costs fall—which, I am energy companies what they want: their review, led by pleased to tell the House, is now supported by the hon. the very same regulator that has let them get away with Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), ripping people off in the past. the president of the Secretary of State’s party. That is Then, today, we heard the big announcement: what real action looks like. encouraging people to switch from one company to Today’s annual energy statement could not have come another. But the truth is that no amount of tinkering at a more important time. Energy prices are rising three with tariffs, telling people to shop around or, as the times faster under this Government than the previous Prime Minister suggested, wearing another jumper will one, bills are up by £300, and the latest price rises will solve the real problem with Britain’s energy market, add another £100 this winter. For people in fuel poverty, because even the cheapest tariff in a rigged market will the gap between their bills and what they can afford is at still not be a good deal. an all-time high, but for the companies, the mark-up The proof of how weak and spineless the Government between wholesale costs and the prices they charge are when it comes to standing up to the energy companies grows ever wider. Fifty-seven households have had work is that only three weeks ago the Minister of State, done under the green deal and 7,000 workers in the Department of Energy and Climate Change, the right insulation industry have lost their jobs. Investment in hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) clean energy has halved, and the Government have told the BBC that the idea that Government levies were legislated to stop any future Administration setting a responsible for bill rises was “nonsense”, but now, boxed decarbonisation target until 2016 at the earliest. Last in by a Prime Minister who is not willing to stand up to year, the UK’s carbon emissions increased by more than the energy companies and a Chancellor who is actively any other country in the EU. courting climate change deniers in his own party, the That is the Government’s record. As we learned from Government say that the levies are to blame. Age UK on Monday, what it means in reality is that 3 It is interesting that the Secretary of State conspicuously million elderly people will not be able to stay warm in did not talk about rolling back the green levies in his their homes this winter. They want their bills frozen, statement. The truth, of course, is that any obligation to not their homes. The question they want answered support clean energy or improve energy efficiency must today is simple: why are this Government too weak to deliver value for money, but how is it possible that stand up to the energy companies? social and environmental obligations that, according to his Department’s own figures, make up only £113 of Mr Davey: I thank the right hon. Lady for her response, people’s bills can account for price rises of £400? Will he in which there was clearly not a single apology to tell us which of the levies, 60% of which were introduced Britain for the black hole in energy security that the by his Government, he now wants to scrap? Is it the Labour party left from when it was in government. energy company obligation, at £47, the warm home The right hon. Lady talked a lot about Ofgem. Who discount, at £11, or the carbon price floor, at £5? Does created Ofgem? The Labour party. Who reformed Ofgem he accept that, whether it is bill payers or taxpayers who to make it stronger? The Leader of the Opposition. In pay, unless he deals with the way people have been attacking Ofgem, an independent regulator, she is attacking overcharged, he is letting the companies off the hook? her own party leader’s record. We are reforming Ofgem; As for the annual competition review, I remind the we have given it new, stronger powers. We have created a Secretary of State that there have been 17 investigations new regime in the Energy Bill, and there is new leadership. into the energy market since 2001. If he is today announcing I believe that Ofgem can deliver on competition where the launch of a new annual review of competition in the the previous Government failed to deliver. We are not energy market, what on earth has Ofgem been doing all kicking competition into the long grass. I am determined this time, and what does he expect it to find out in the that this first annual energy assessment on competition next 10 months that it has not discovered in the past should deliver by next spring. 10 years? The last review by Ofgem, to which he gave his The right hon. Lady talked about levies. The question full backing, finished only in June. This is what he said is whether levies should be on bills or on taxes, and we at the time: are looking at that issue. Interestingly, she referred to a “I welcome the continued progress of Ofgem’s reform of the figure of “only” £112. I hope that people noticed that, retail energy market…That’s why I am backing Ofgem’s reforms”. because her energy freeze will deliver only £120—we The Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Bexhill think. So she is admitting that her energy freeze is and Battle, was even more effusive. He said: actually the con that we have been saying it is all along. 1099 Annual Energy Statement31 OCTOBER 2013 Annual Energy Statement 1100
[Mr Davey] to the prospects of urgently needed investment in new capacity, which would be the inevitable consequence of I end by thanking the right hon. Lady for tabling an a Government-imposed price freeze? Opposition day debate on energy bills for next Wednesday. I want to debate energy with her every day of the week, Mr Davey: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s because I want to expose Labour’s appalling record on question, which he also asked me when I appeared energy and its appalling policies, which would feed into before the Select Committee a few months ago. I am the big six that it created. Labour’s big six need competition, afraid that my answer is the same: although rising block and we are up for it—Labour is not. tariffs are attractive on one level, the problem is that low-income, high-user households—basically, large families Several hon. Members rose— on low incomes—would be hit by their introduction, so I do not think they would be the right move. We need to Mr Speaker: Order. A very large number of right insulate their homes—that is the real way to help them hon. and hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye. get their energy bills down. I would like to accommodate the level of interest, but I remind the House that we have very important business Several hon. Members rose— to follow, and it is heavily subscribed. There is therefore a premium on economy, in which we will be led by Mr Speaker: Order. May I remind the House that Sir Robert Smith. Members who entered the Chamber after the start of the statement should not expect to be called? Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): I am delighted to welcome the fact that the Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Surely Government support the Energy and Climate Change the Secretary of State understands that the public believe Committee’s call for a competition review and to that the energy companies are giving Ministers, civil press Ofgem on greater implementation of BDO’s servants and Ofgem the runaround. Would it not be recommendations on transparency. Will the Secretary better if the public and pressure groups had access to of State confirm that the market reforms will end the the figures that clearly mesmerise officialdom and we exploitation of the inertia on the part of customers applied freedom of information to the energy companies? on existing tariffs, which leaves them languishing on uncompetitive tariffs? Mr Davey: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman on transparency. That is what I announced in my statement Mr Davey: I thank my hon. Friend and the other and it is why Ofgem is publishing a consultation on members of the Committee, whose reports and their greater financial transparency—so that the accounts of grilling of energy company executives have played a these big energy companies can be properly exposed very important role and have showed the role that this and we can see from where the profits are made. House can play in holding those companies to account. Our competition reforms are aimed at helping people Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): VAT on and preventing them from being stranded. That is what household energy bills is now yielding the Government Ofgem’s reforms will do, but the Labour party does not about £500 million a year. Why do the Government not support them, because it is so critical of Ofgem. I assure abolish VAT on household bills? If they say that they my hon. Friend that our aim is always to help the cannot because the European Union will not allow it, is fuel-poor. that not another good reason for leaving the EU?
Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): As Mr Davey: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the stick of competition, to which the Secretary of State trying to bring Europe into this debate. I have to tell referred, shattered at the first blow into less than him that the European Union can help us bring down matchwood, will he at least now attack the energy our energy bills. A proper single energy market in Europe, companies and dispel their canard that bills are rising with better connections, would see prices go down. so astronomically due to green taxes? Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): If the Mr Davey: I agree with the hon. Lady that the evidence Secretary of State was serious about helping the fuel-poor, that green taxes are pushing up bills is quite weak. They surely he would be acting to make the UK housing are a cost to bill payers—we should not deny that and stock far more energy efficient, which is the only permanent we should look at it as we are looking at every single way to bring down bills, according to the Child Poverty part of the bill. Action Group, Age UK and many other charities that I regret that the hon. Lady attacks competition, support proposals to recycle carbon tax revenue into because that is the way we are going to deliver. People energy efficiency. That would bring nine out of 10 homes are benefiting from competition and making huge savings out of fuel poverty, quadruple carbon savings and on their energy bills now, and the Labour party ought create up to 200,000 jobs, so why does the Secretary of to support it. State continue to ignore calls for such ambitious policies?
Mr Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con): I congratulate the Mr Davey: We are introducing ambitious policies to Secretary of State on an excellent statement. Will he help the fuel-poor and to retrofit the housing stock. As now consider the introduction of rising block tariffs to I have mentioned, under the energy company obligation, protect the poorest consumers against future price rises 230,000 low-income households have had energy-efficiency without any cost to the taxpayer and without damage measures such as insulation installed this year. 1101 Annual Energy Statement31 OCTOBER 2013 Annual Energy Statement 1102
Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): Does my right hon. Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): When John Wakeham Friend agree that some of the levies on energy bills are and I privatised the electricity industry in 1990, we left particularly regressive, such as the energy company more than 20 distributors and suppliers of energy. How obligation and feed-in tariffs? People on low incomes is it that we ended up with only six after the last still pay the charges, but it is often people who have Government? Is it not a bit rich for the Labour party, much higher incomes who get the benefits. Will the which opposed privatisation and competition at that review ensure that these important policies are delivered time, to call for the breaking up of the big six that it in the fairest way possible? created?
Mr Davey: My hon. Friend makes an important Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The point. As we review the levies, and indeed the whole reason I want to keep debating energy is that the more market, we must ensure that they work for the fuel-poor that people understand the history of what has happened, and the less well-off. I am particularly concerned, whether the more they will realise that it is the Opposition who in the levy review or elsewhere, to ensure that we make are to blame for the problems. They left a black hole in competitive markets work for the poorest and most our energy supplies and prevented competition. We are vulnerable in our society. putting that right.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): The Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Secretary of State will know that yesterday one of his The public will be appalled by the Secretary of State’s Ministers said that all green and energy efficiency levies statement. He has announced a review that will report would be included in the review and another Minister next spring and that will focus on switching. As my said that the renewables obligation, contracts for difference right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline and feed-in tariffs would not be included. Which of his Flint) said, the best deal in a broken market is not a Ministers was right, and will he be writing to the Prime good deal. When is the Secretary of State going to help Minister to warn him of the perils of making up policy the millions of households and businesses that will be on the spot? crippled by huge energy bills this winter?
Mr Davey: The hon. Gentleman, who is very Mr Davey: The hon. Lady and her hon. Friends are knowledgeable in this area, will have to await the outcome doing their constituents a huge disservice. The truth is of the review. It will be announced at the autumn that people can get much better deals by switching. I statement or before. He and his colleagues will hear the was on “Watchdog” last night with Anne Robinson. results of the review at that time. She used three viewers as examples. They might have been the constituents of Opposition Members. One had Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): There saved £240, another had saved £400 and one person had has been an awful lot of talk about the six big energy saved nearly £950. The Labour party wants to take that companies. Will the Secretary of State explain how we option away from people. ended up with six companies dominating the market, and what is being done to bring more suppliers into the Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I was market? pleased to hear the Secretary of State mention credit balances. Is it not clear that many people who pay in Mr Davey: My hon. Friend asks a very good question. instalments are overcharged as a matter of policy by the In 2000, we had 17 energy companies—three generators utility companies? It is bad enough banking with the and 14 suppliers. After that lot on the Opposition banks, but I do not understand why we have to provide Benches reformed the market, we were down to six. We interest-free credit to electricity companies as well. When are increasing the number of suppliers and generators will the Secretary of State bring that to an end? because our competition policy is working. We are prepared to go even further. That lot would reduce Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is right to raise that competition. matter, which Ofgem is looking into. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State will meet a number of Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ companies next week to consider the issue. Co-op): Despite the Secretary of State’s unwillingness to take on the big six energy companies, will he commend Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): As stated yesterday, the work of Labour-led Cardiff and Vale of Glamorgan the recent uSwitch survey showed that on one or more councils, which have launched a collective buying scheme occasion last winter 75% of people turned the heating to bring down the prices offered by the energy companies, off. As those over 75 are particularly vulnerable and with the support of the Welsh Labour Government? least likely to switch supplier, will the Secretary of State back Labour’s plans to put all over-75s on the cheapest Mr Davey: I am glad that those councils have caught tariff automatically? up. It was this Secretary of State and this Government who introduced the idea of collective switching and Mr Davey: We want to do more for those people, purchasing through “Cheaper Energy Together”. In all which is why we are pushing switching and collective their 13 years, the Labour Government did not use the switching. The hon. Lady has a distinguished record as principle of co-operative purchasing to help people. a former chief executive of a citizens advice bureau, and They betrayed their principles of collective action—what I hope she would welcome our proposal for the big a shower! energy saving network. That is now operating, with the 1103 Annual Energy Statement31 OCTOBER 2013 Annual Energy Statement 1104
[Mr Davey] Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Not one measure in the Secretary of State’s statement will prevent the projected help of Citizens Advice, Age UK and National Energy death of 24,000 people as a result of the hikes in the Action, to help people in communities up and down the cost of energy. At the same there is emerging evidence, country get better deals. which has been mentioned, about a hidden, protected, secret sort of cartel trading scheme whereby companies David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): During her are buying from each other at above the wholesale price, remarks, the shadow Secretary of State said that she and knocking that cost on to consumers. Can the Secretary believes “secret deals” were being done by the big of State say, hand on heart, that he is not aware of six—those were her words. If she has that evidence, it is anything like that happening and putting a huge burden clearly a cartel, which would result in a fine equal to on the consumer with huge prices from the energy turnover. In the case of Centrica that would be £20 billion. companies? Does the Secretary of State agree that the right hon. Lady should put that evidence to the House—if she has Mr Davey rose— it—and get that £20 billion? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We Mr Davey: My hon. Friend makes a good point. If must have very short questions in order to try to get the right hon. Lady knows of secret information, I hope everyone in. I understand how important this is. she will confirm that she has told the competition regulator so that it can be investigated. She is not very good at answering questions. I have asked her and her Mr Davey: We are helping the fuel poor and people right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition questions who have problems with their bills through, for example, about their policy, but we have not had a single answer. the warm home discount, which takes £135 off bills. We are publishing a guide. I hope that the hon. Gentleman Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): The Secretary of State and every right hon. and hon. Member will use it to made the point that much of the increase in bills has help their constituents. been due to increases in the wholesale price, particularly The hon. Gentleman talks about the wholesale market. of gas, but many commentators, including Ofgem, have The previous Government did nothing on competition questioned whether that has been the case over the past in the wholesale market; they made it worse. This year. What powers does the Secretary of State or Ofgem Government, with Ofgem, which Labour Members want have to tackle the big six energy companies about their to abolish, are taking measures to ensure there is far most recent rises, which do not appear to be driven by more competition in the wholesale markets. That is how wholesale price increases? to prevent the big six and their vertical integration models from pushing up prices. The Liberal Democrats Mr Davey: First, over a period it is absolutely clear are the party of competition; Labour is the party of the that the wholesale price of gas has been pushing up big six. bills, but there is a debate about whether in the past 12 months wholesale gas prices have gone up. If the Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Most observers hon. Gentleman looks at Ofgem’s clarification and the agree that, thanks to the previous Government’s omissions, press release on its website, he will find that, depending we must invest a great deal of money—£110 billion—very on how it is measured, it admits that the wholesale price quickly in our energy infrastructure. We want much of of gas has gone up by more than 8%. that money to come from the private sector. Does my right hon. Friend agree that another consequence of a Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Will the Secretary price freeze would be that such private investment dried of State acknowledge that for too long his Department’s up, leaving the poor old taxpayer to foot the bill? drive for expensive and intermittent renewable energy has driven thousands into fuel poverty? Indeed, a former Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There Secretary of State—now the Leader of the Opposition— are many problems with Labour’s energy price freeze. said in this place in January 2010 that First, it is a con because it will not help consumers. “yes, there are upward pressures on energy bills, and that makes Secondly, it undermines competition. However, worst life difficult for people, including those in fuel poverty, but it is of all in many ways, it will kill the investment that we right that we go down the low-carbon energy route.”—[Official need both for green energy and to keep the lights on. Report, 7 January 2010; Vol. 503, c. 269.] People in the energy industry are saying that. The Leader Surely now is the right time to examine the level of of the Opposition has done one of the most irresponsible green taxes and how they adversely affect the fuel poor. things ever done by a Leader of the Opposition.
Mr Davey: I have to say that the hon. Gentleman is Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): wrong about that. We are trying to ensure we help the The Secretary of State has nothing to say today about fuel-poor with effective policies such as the energy the Chancellor’s imposition of the carbon floor price, company obligation and the warm home discount. The which undermines the competitiveness of our energy- support in the Energy Bill for green energy is a small intensive industries, which are crucial to the development part of the Bill—as he knows—and it is helping the of a low-carbon economy. When will the Secretary of country prepare for the ever higher gas prices we are State bring urgency to bear before more jobs are lost? likely to see. If we do not go green, there is a real danger we will expose consumers and our economy to high, Mr Davey: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor volatile fossil fuel prices in the future. We must have a produced, some time ago, a £250 million package to more sensible and diverse energy mix. help energy-intensive industries—[Interruption.] The 1105 Annual Energy Statement31 OCTOBER 2013 Annual Energy Statement 1106 hon. Lady should wait. The first part of that package— Mr Davey: The hon. Lady should catch up, because £113 million—has state aid clearance, and £12.5 million the Ofgem reforms and the retail market review will put has been paid out after 60 applications were received. those people on the lowest tariff, which was backed by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. But she does Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): Does my have a point: some people are not using switching—not right hon. Friend agree that Labour’s dishonest price using the markets and competition—and some of them con would help Labour’s big six by hitting smaller are older people. I take that issue seriously, and it is one companies the hardest? It is not supported by the of the reasons why we want to use co-operative principles managing director of Ovo, and the chief executive of for collective switching, and why I am using third sector First Utility, which has just 195,000 customers, has voluntary groups such as Citizens Advice and Age UK said: to deliver face-to-face advice to help exactly the people “Bluntly, it could put me under”. she is talking about. Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): The Secretary of State will Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is agree that the best way to cut fuel bills is to improve the interesting that the Leader of the Opposition has switched energy efficiency of households. Would he care to comment to First Utility, the leaders of which say that his policies on the fact that two of the big six energy companies— will put them out of business. That is how incoherent npower and British Gas—blame the energy companies the Opposition are. obligation, a measure designed to help the fuel-poor to cut their bills, for the increase in prices next year? Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): The utilities were privatised between 20 and 25 years ago. They have Mr Davey: I have been rather bemused by some of the had all that time to prove that they really are in competition, statements from the big six, especially on the environmental but plenty of evidence, especially the price increases in costs. Sometimes their numbers just do not add up. the past few weeks, indicates that they are acting like That is why we are calling for more transparency and we a cartel. That is what the Secretary of State ought are acting on more transparency. to examine. That is why the public want us to have a price freeze when Labour gets in. He should have Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East adopted that today. Secondly—this will almost certainly Cleveland) (Lab): When can we expect the full roll-out happen—he should take those utilities back into public of the mitigation policies in relation to the Chancellor’s ownership. imposition of the carbon floor price? I say that because this week Tata has announced 500 job losses and Sembcorp, Mr Davey: Hon. Members were waiting for the hon. near my constituency in Teesside, has also announced Gentleman’s last statement. I do not understand where redundancies. When can we expect those mitigation Labour Members are on competition. They complain policies to be rolled out in full? about cartels, but do not want to promote competition. If they are worried about cartels, they should join us Mr Davey: We are having a lot of applications in for and support what the Government have announced the £113 million package that we announced. Money is today. now going out of the door to help those companies. Another part of our package for energy-intensive industries Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): The is still subject to state aid clearance in Brussels. We are Government have done far more than the previous one trying to secure that as quickly as possible so that we for the people living in the greatest fuel poverty—those can get the money to those companies. living off the mains gas grid. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, as the reviews continue, we will continue Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The Secretary remorselessly to pursue the aim of helping people in of State could become a national hero today if he the greatest fuel poverty, including those who live off announced the abolition of his Department so we would the mains gas grid? have no more silly green regulations and the savings could be passed on to the consumer. Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The previous Government failed to do anything for people Mr Davey: For a moment, I thought that my hon. who are off the gas grid. The Minister of State, Department Friend was going to ask me to tea with his wife. His of Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend manifesto, which he published a while back, not only the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), has been wanted to abolish my Department but bring back hanging taking action, talking to the companies and the people and a range of other things that I do not support. affected. There is a new code of conduct and there are regular working group meetings. That is action, unlike Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): While what Labour did. anything that the Secretary of State can do to rein in the energy companies is welcome, surely the only reason Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): that we have this recent welcome flurry of activity is Can I take the Secretary of State back to the issue of Labour’s energy freeze policy and the alternative suggestion older people, who we know do not switch suppliers? I from a former Prime Minister of a windfall tax. met a constituent recently who was dreading his winter quarter bill of £300 for a bedsit. Labour plans to put all Mr Davey: That is not correct. The energy statement older people on to the cheapest tariff and to freeze is made every year, and we have been working on many prices. What will the Secretary of State do for those of the proposals that have been announced today for older people? many years. We are having to put right Labour’s failure. 1107 Annual Energy Statement31 OCTOBER 2013 Annual Energy Statement 1108
[Mr Davey] Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): My constituents will welcome the possible introduction of criminal sanctions I am delighted that the Labour party has woken up to if any company is found guilty of rigging the market. the fact that energy bills are hurting people, but Labour Although I note Ofgem’s powers of compensation, Members have not yet apologised for creating the big would it not be more appropriate if consumers were to six, which have caused most of the problem. benefit if price or market rigging were found? Can we take action to ensure that such money goes back into Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): My constituents consumers’ bank accounts? will welcome the Secretary of State’s determination to ensure rigorous competition in the marketplace. However, Mr Davey: The measures in the Energy Bill provide the biggest driver of price volatility will be the security that, if an individual consumer has been done wrong by of our energy market—or lack of it. Can he assure me an energy company—mistreated or subjected to any that the proper investment is going into that area? The other malpractice—the fine, thanks to this Government, lack of investment by the Labour party over 13 years in will go to the consumer. The criminal sanctions I have power is a disgrace. referred to today would be applied for systemic anti- competitive practices or manipulation of the energy Mr Davey: My hon. Friend makes an important markets by an individual or company. point. If we do not have sufficient capacity, not only will that threaten security, but it will cause spikes in Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ prices. The underinvestment that we had under the last Co-op): One of my constituents took the Government’s Government has caused this problem, and we are having advice and switched his supplier, but he found that after to run to catch up. We have seen £35 billion of investment the initial attractive offer he was paying twice as much a since 2010, and we have a lot more investment in the month for his energy bills. He cannot switch back to his pipeline. We have announced Hinkley Point C as the previous supplier because he is tied in to a minimum first nuclear reactor in a generation, but we will have to 12-month contract. He is now paying £60 a month more do more to put right the mess that Labour left us. than he was previously. What will the Secretary of State’s proposals do for situations such as that? Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Wholesale costs are up 1.7% but bills for households will go up by 9%. Mr Davey: I cannot comment on the individual case Does the Secretary of State think that is fair? or why the person decided to switch. If the hon. Gentleman’s constituent can show that he was mis-sold the switch, he Mr Davey: We would not want more competition in can approach the regulator for redress. the market if we were happy with what is going on, but the hon. Gentleman’s figures are not right. It depends Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I on how wholesale costs are defined in any one year. congratulate the Secretary of State on finally making Ofgem says that on one definition they have gone up by the decision on nuclear, something that we have not had more than 8%. for 13 years. We still have subsidies for wind and biomass, we are an island country, and there are practical schemes Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Does the Secretary for tidal barrages on the Severn and on the Wyre at of State accept that Labour’s big six are an oligopoly Fleetwood in my constituency, so is there any chance of that appears to operate as a price-fixing cartel? Is it not a national policy on tidal energy? time to break them up? Mr Davey: I have good news for my hon. Friend. We Mr Davey: We would not be asking for an annual do have generous support for tidal energy and many competition assessment if we were not concerned to tidal energy developers are coming forward with ideas, ensure more competition. My hon. Friend is right: we which we want to encourage. have faced a market created by the last Government who created the big six. We have already taken many Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) measures that are working to get independent suppliers (PC): Wales is a net exporter of electricity—we are an and generators, and our liquidity reforms with Ofgem electricity-generation-rich nation. Can the Secretary of will make a big difference in the forward markets. State explain, therefore, why electricity prices in my country are among the highest in the British state? Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): A disabled pensioner couple summed up the views of many of my constituents Mr Davey: We are pleased that Wales is making such when they told me that they pay more than £3,000 a a contribution. That is good for the Welsh economy and year in electricity and gas, which will go up by another Welsh jobs, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman supports £300 after the price rises. My constituents would benefit the fact that our policies are ensuring that the energy from Labour’s plan to put all over-75s on the cheapest industry is strong in Wales. He knows that distribution tariff. Why will the Secretary of State not do that? costs vary across the country, and it is not only Wales that has higher-than-average bills. Ofgem keeps the Mr Davey: Again, the Labour party needs to understand issue under review. that the retail market review in the Energy Bill will get people on the lowest tariff. I hope that the hon. Gentleman Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I am glad that will read the new guide that we have published today the Secretary of State wants to make it easier for people because it is aimed at those who, like him, are talking to to switch electricity suppliers. Will he also look at people like his constituents to ensure that they get the obstacles to switching suppliers of heating oil and LPG, help that they need. which include tactics such as bills stating that tanks and 1109 Annual Energy Statement31 OCTOBER 2013 Annual Energy Statement 1110 cages outside homes do not belong to bill payers, which alongside National Grid, are intent on destroying the are designed to deter customers from switching? That environment and landscape of mid-Wales where we would help those living off the gas grid. live?
Mr Davey: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. Mr Davey: My hon. Friend knows that I cannot The code of conduct, which the Minister of State with comment on the planning application that relates to a responsibility for energy, my right hon. Friend the Member lot of what he has just said. If he has constituents who for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), has negotiated, will have problems with fuel poverty, we have introduced the stop that practice. warm home discount, which takes £135 off their bills, and there are other measures. He should look at the Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Despite the Secretary guide that we are publishing today. of State’s answers to earlier questions, Tata Steel, which announced 340 job losses in my constituency this week, Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): On fuel is still saying that the carbon floor tax, unilaterally poverty, is it not the case that, in the five years between introduced by the Chancellor, is putting its businesses in 2004 and 2009, an extra 2.8 million people fell into fuel the UK at risk, compared with the rest of the European poverty? What further measures can we take to deal Union. Will the Secretary of Sate commit to working with this scourge of modern society? with the Business Secretary and the Chancellor to bring action forward rapidly to address that issue? Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are keenly focused on tackling fuel poverty through the Mr Davey: I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that we energy companies obligation and the warm home discount. have been working together closely and that is having Within the energy companies obligation, there is the an effect—we are succeeding. We want the state aid case affordable warmth scheme. I have some good news: it is for the carbon price floor compensation scheme to working an awful lot better than the warm front policy come out of Brussels. We are working hard to make that the Labour party introduced. It is more cost-effective happen. and it is rolling out more quickly. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): There are 10,000 off-grid homes in my constituency. What more Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): As well as high energy can be done to help my constituents to access good bills, motorists continue to face high petrol bills, on deals, including the ability to buy at times of year when average paying £1,700 a year to fill up the family car. the kerosene price is at least a bit lower? Will my right hon. Friend extend the principles of competition transparency and extend criminal sanctions for manipulating the market to the oil companies that Mr Davey: There are two things that can help my are ripping off the consumer, despite the excellent hon. Friend’s constituents and others like them; first, Government freeze in petrol duty? collective purchase. There are heating oil clubs where people come together to get better deals, and that is helping some people. Secondly, I hope that he is aware Mr Davey: My hon. Friend invites me to trespass on of the campaign being pushed by the Minister of State, to the responsibilities of another Secretary of State. I my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks, to get think that would be ill-advised, particularly as the Secretary people to buy early. If people buy early, they can get of State for Transport has just taken his place on the heating oil much cheaper than if they buy it later, in the Front Bench. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow winter months. (Robert Halfon) may wish to ask him that question, but he is right to say that the Government have an excellent record on this. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Will the Secretary of State consider legislating for the re-separation of electricity generation from electricity supply, and gas Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) production from gas supply, so that consumers can get (Con): For 13 years, the Labour Government did little the transparency they need in their bills, something to deal with standing charges. Will my right hon. Friend Ofgem is not able to achieve? tell me what impact standing charges have on pensioner fuel poverty, and will he ensure that they are included in Mr Davey: My hon. Friend should look at the Ofgem the review? proposals, which have backing in the Energy Bill. They will make a big difference to those markets. I am keen to Mr Davey: Ofgem’s retail market review looked at ensure that forward markets—not just the day-ahead different approaches to standing charges, and there is a market, but the six-month, 12-month and the two-year debate on them. However, there is a danger that taking market—are far more liquid. We have an illiquid market them away will lead to a single unit price model—which and that is where the big six can exercise market power. some people think is better—that will hit low-income The Government and Ofgem are tackling that. The households that are high energy users. We therefore Opposition are not. need to consider the full distributional consequences. We will keep these matters under review, as we should. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Will the Secretary of State explain how it can be fair that the most vulnerable Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Increasing capacity people in my constituency in mid-Wales have to pay is definitely the key to this problem. Ensuring, through through their noses for their energy to provide massive the Energy Bill, that we have more competition is part subsidies to giant wealthy wind farm developers who, of the story, but would that not be reinforced by 1111 Annual Energy Statement 31 OCTOBER 2013 1112
[Neil Carmichael] High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill strengthening the role of a single energy market to Committee attract more investment and drive even more competition into the system? Clause 1 Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is right. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has been pushing the case for PREPARATORY EXPENDITURE the single energy market at the European Council. Recently, I hosted a meeting of energy Ministers from 12.27 pm northern European countries—the northern European energy dialogue—to consider ways to have better Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): interconnections in the northern European grid, which I beg to move amendment 18, page 1, line 5, leave out will encourage downward pressure on prices. ‘at least’. Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Thank you for the following: the exercise, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the next five years, many of our power stations will close, therefore reducing Amendment 12, page 1, line 10, leave out ‘and’. supply. Will my right hon. Friend confirm how many Amendment 13, page 1, line 11, after ‘Manchester’, power stations were built under the previous Government, add and how many he plans to build under this Government? ‘and one or more towns or cities in Scotland’. Amendment 28 , page 1, line 11, at end insert ‘Scottish Mr Davey: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I will destinations’. not mention the number of power stations, but I can say Amendment 14, page 1, line 12, at end insert that investment was far too low under the previous Labour Government. It is improving massively under ‘, and any newly constructed railway lines, roads, airports and this Government. light railways’. Government amendment 17. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Last, but Amendment 19, page 1, line 12, at end insert— certainly not least, I call Andrew Percy. ‘(c) extends substantially no further than Phases One and Two of the High Speed 2 network connecting the Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I can only places set out in section 1(2)(a).’. assume it is because I am from Yorkshire, Mr Deputy Amendment 23, in clause 3, page 2, line 27, leave out Speaker. ‘comes into force on the day on which it is passed’ The Energy Secretary rightly pointed out how Labour’s and insert non-freeze con would cost jobs and investment. I and my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin ‘shall not come into force until the Secretary of State has Vickers) heard from a local business—a big employer. published detailed proposals for the Government’s preferred We were told, with specific reference to Labour’s price route directly connecting the network with Heathrow airport, has consulted with those residents, local authorities and businesses freeze con, that it has lost a major contract. This is which may be affected by this connecting route and has costing jobs and investment. The uncertainty that has published measures to mitigate and compensate for the social, been created in our energy market will not do anything economic and environmental impact, of the line.’. for bills, but it will cost jobs. Mrs Gillan: I welcome to the Front Bench the Under- Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, but I Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the have to tell him that it is actually worse that he suggests. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill). People from around the world who want to invest in the This is his first outing and it is good to see him in his UK, and who welcome our strong policies to attract place. I welcome the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary investment, are now worried because of the extra Creagh) to her place on the Opposition Front Bench. It uncertainty created by the Leader of the Opposition is good to have some authentic northern voices speaking and the Labour party. The Opposition’s policies are not on this subject, albeit from the Front Bench, so we just a con for consumers; they will undermine competition probably know exactly what they are going to say. May and are hitting investment and the economy. They should I also welcome my right hon. Friend the Member for be ashamed. Chelmsford (Mr Burns) and, with your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, thank him for the courtesy he showed towards me during his time in office? This is a difficult subject for me and, I think, it has proved a difficult subject, from time to time, for him. Amendments 18, 12 and 13 relate to the Government’s commitment to Scotland. I tabled them in Committee, because I felt it was important to have something in the Bill that registered the verbal intentions, expressed by Ministers and others, eventually to take High Speed 2, if it is ever built, through to Scotland. It is ironic, and slightly odd, that clause 3(1) extends the scope of the Bill to England, Wales and Scotland, given that there is no mention of HS2 going to Scotland. 1113 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1114
If we have time, we will get on to the Barnett formula. worried because her amendment 18 would remove the Undoubtedly, there is precedent for the Government “at least”. I read “at least” to mean that HS2 could stop ensuring that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get at more stations. Were we to accept her amendment 18 their fair share of the infrastructure spend that is being and then her amendment 13, which would add the words spent exclusively in England, and I believe there is “and one or more towns or cities in Scotland”, already such a precedent regarding the money for HS2, it would leave out everything between Manchester and but will the Minister confirm that? Glasgow as a potential stop on a high-speed line to Glasgow. That is my understanding of her amendments. Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): In drafting her amendments, did my right hon. Friend consider Mrs Gillan: My amendments are intended to probe how to deliver extra passenger capacity to the east and the Government’s intention. I believe that they should west coast lines, but without the vast costs? have made provision to include more stops on the line. For example, I would have thought that between Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I Manchester and elsewhere, there could have been other am afraid that I do not have the resources to table an stops giving greater benefit to some of the areas that extensive list of amendments, and although I considered will be destroyed by the line. that, I dismissed it fairly rapidly. I just do not have the back-up and resource, on a project this large and complex, I tabled an amendment in Committee, and it must to keep up with the machinations of the Government, have struck a chord, because the official Opposition as they bring out 400 or 500 pages of information a have tabled something very similar, and I am delighted couple of days before any crucial stage of the Bill—I to say that the Government, in an attempt to hug the am expecting the £50,000 environmental statement to Opposition closer, have now signed up to it and it has arrive on our desks shortly. become a Government amendment. I congratulate the shadow Secretary of State on her victory. One of the Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ major problems is with the connectivity of HS2. If it is Co-op): Obviously, I am as concerned as the right hon. not fully connected and integrated into our transport Lady apparently is about high-speed links to Scotland, system, it will be the white elephant that so many of us but is she seriously telling the House that if the Government believe it will be. were to announce that HS2 was going to Scotland, she would drop her opposition to it completely? Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on tabling the amendment. It is not Mrs Gillan: No, not at all. I am not arguing that, but only the Opposition and the Government who need I have always been of the principle that if it is to be congratulating; she needs congratulating herself. done, it is to be done properly. I am quite clear about my position—I do not want HS2 at all—but I also do Mrs Gillan: That is most gratifying. I am glad that my not want a Bill to go through the House that does not hon. Friend has observed the first rule of politicians: reflect what I think the project should encompass, and one can never over-flatter another politician. indeed what the Bill itself states it encompasses. Connectivity is at the heart of some of the failures of this project. For example, it does not go to Heathrow; it Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Would the right does not connect properly with the channel tunnel rail hon. Lady not accept that, on the current plans for link; indeed, it does not even go into the centres of the phase 1 and 2, there will be a 45-minute reduction in cities it is supposed to serve, whether Sheffield, Derby journey times to Edinburgh? or Nottingham. All the time savings claimed by the Government come to nought if travellers have to make Mrs Gillan: The right hon. Gentleman makes a good their way from outside the city centre, as I know will be point, but the Government recently produced the new the case for Sheffield. We need to ensure that if this is business case, and I believe that there is doubt over the ever built, the connectivity is as good as it can be. timing used for Edinburgh to London. I have been informed by a commentator that they failed to take into Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): Does account the new rolling stock and the existing time my right hon. Friend agree that HS1 has excellent savings from improvements being made to the line. I connectivity with domestic services and that towns such stand to be corrected—perhaps the Minister can tell as Folkestone and cities such as Canterbury have high-speed us—but I believe that there has been an error in the services even though they are not on the high-speed calculation. line? I would like the Bill to refer to Scotland, because it is important that a definite intent be put in the Bill. It Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend the Member for North would send a good message to Scotland, at a time when Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) is not in the Chamber, but I we are trying to keep this United Kingdom together, in understand he feels that it is a work still in progress the teeth of opposition from the nationalist parties, and when it comes to bringing benefits to his constituency. I I think it should be in the Bill simply for that reason. also gather, from studying the local economies around HS1, that there have been no additional benefits; indeed, Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I there has possibly been some detraction from local sympathise with the spirit of my right hon. Friend’s economies. amendments, and obviously many of us who support HS2 hope it will go through to Glasgow and Edinburgh Damian Collins: If my right hon. Friend looks at the and cannot understand why we do not start building unemployment statistics for east Kent, she will see that from there now—but be that as it may. I am a bit the rate is falling faster not only than the national 1115 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1116
[Damian Collins] Mrs Gillan: Yes, of course. average, but the average for the south-east of England, David Mowat: If it were true that better infrastructure the most prosperous part of the country. The county for the north would suck the lifeblood out of the region, council says it is impossible to talk of economic regeneration would it not be right to close the M6? Perhaps that in east Kent without considering the benefits of HS1. strategy would make the north really prosperous. Mrs Gillan: I am very glad to hear that. I do not Mrs Gillan: I am not going to dignify that intervention know how many years after the project this has become with an answer. apparent. [HON.MEMBERS: “Ten.”] Ten years; thank you. Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I would like Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I to draw the House’s attention to the Transport Committee’s want to reinforce something the right hon. Lady said detailed report on high-speed rail. It stated that about connectivity. A lot of people think that those of “only time will tell whether or not HS2 will, for example, help to us who oppose HS2 are against connectivity and high-speed rebalance the economy and reduce the north-south divide.” transportation. We are not. We want the right connectivity It is a £50 billion project, yet we are told that “only time that will help all the towns and cities in this country to will tell” whether it will achieve its main aim. grow, but we do not want more of our country’s lifeblood being sucked down into London and the south. Several hon. Members rose— Mrs Gillan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Of course, it echoed the words of Lord Mrs Gillan: I am not going to take any more Mandelson, who really does know an awful lot about interventions. I want to make sure that other colleagues the genesis of this project. It certainly has that vampiric are able to speak on this group of amendments, and as touch about it, as I think Members on both sides of the there are no knives, the longer we take on this group, House can appreciate. the less time we will have for other important groups that deal with the economics of the railway line and The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick with compensation. McLoughlin): If HS2 is going to suck the lifeblood of the northern cities, as the hon. Member for Huddersfield Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): (Mr Sheerman) suggests, why are the leaders of those Will the right hon. Lady give way? northern cities, such as Sir Richard Leese and Albert Bore, the loudest demanders of this service? Mrs Gillan: How can I resist the Chairman of the Transport Committee? Mrs Gillan: Oh simple, simple question, Secretary of State! What leader of any council of any political Mrs Ellman: I thank the right hon. Lady for giving colour or persuasion would turn down the millions and way. Will she point out to the hon. Member for North millions of pounds being thrown at their areas? It Warwickshire (Dan Byles) that the Select Committee would be completely stupid of them to do anything was very clear that High Speed 2 was the only way in other than support it. which the necessary increased capacity could be obtained, and that in discussing the economic benefits, we also Mr Sheerman rose— stated that economic development strategies were required to go together with the provision of that extra capacity? Mrs Gillan: I give way to the hon. Gentleman one last time. Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention. Mr Sheerman: The Secretary of State has commented following my intervention. I have talked to people in the A lot of people are saying that there is no alternative big cities, and many of them have not read the six to HS2 if we are to solve the capacity problems, when in critical evaluations of the impact of HS2, and they fact a large number of alternatives are emerging from certainly have not looked at the impact of high-speed numerous sources. Suggestions have been made by economic rail on the provincial cities in France. It is sucking the think-tanks and transport economists, including a recent lifeblood out of them and into the metropolitan area proposal to revive the old grand central line. I fought around Paris. We have also not been told on what against an ill-conceived plan to run freight on that line grounds the local people here, who have not been given in the early 1990s when I was first elected to the House. a referendum— That plan did not stack up economically, and we saw it off. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The Amendment 19 would narrow the scope of the Bill, hon. Gentleman should know better. This is his second which, as currently drafted, could extend to all railway or third intervention. Let us try to keep the debate calm operations. I do not know whether it was the intention and orderly, with short interventions. to cover not only HS2 but all other railway operations, but the drafting seems to be a bit sloppy. If the provisions Mrs Gillan: Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. are not confined to HS2, it will make a mockery of any limits placed on the costs that the taxpayer will have to David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Will my face. The amendment attempts to limit this money Bill, right hon. Friend give way? and to limit the expenditure to HS2, in line with what 1117 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1118
I believe the Government intended. If the provision The case for HS2 is also based on increased economic were to include Scotland, that would round up the benefit to the areas in which the railway stations are whole package. located, as well as the surrounding areas and the regions that they serve. The issue of freed capacity on the west 12.45 pm coast main line as a result of phase 1, and on the east You will correct me if I am wrong, Mr Deputy coast and midland main lines following phase 2, is Speaker, but I believe that I will have a right of reply at critical. The strategic review states that there will be a the end of the debate on this group of amendments, £3 billion benefit from the use of freed capacity, and given that I moved amendment 18. I want to let colleagues Network Rail has stated that more than 100 cities and speak to the other amendments. I hope that the Minister towns could benefit. will also comment on the effects of HS2 on the areas outside the towns that will be directly connected to the James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): line. I am sure that colleagues in this House and the Those benefits will be crucial to areas such as Birmingham other place will be concerned by the KPMG report that and the west midlands. One of the advantages of HS2 came out as a result of a freedom of information to the west midlands will be that it will free up capacity request. It had not been published alongside the KPMG on the west coast main line and improve connectivity to report that came from the Government. It showed that regions like the black country, part of which I represent. HS2 would have a negative economic effect on many areas of the country, and I am particularly worried Mrs Ellman: Indeed; the hon. Gentleman is absolutely about some of those areas. Will the Minister tell us correct. We must not look simply at the HS2 line itself; which areas are involved? The House needs to have that we must also consider how its connectivity to other information before we start making decisions on the lines and other parts of the transport network can be largest infrastructure project since the second world developed. war. We need to know the pros and cons. I am firmly on the con side, and I have tabled my amendments accordingly. Dan Byles: If the principal benefit is now capacity I hope that the Minister will rise to the occasion. I am rather than speed—this seems very much how the argument pleased he has accepted my earlier amendment through has moved—why not slow it down? If it is slowed down, the route of the Opposition, and I look forward to we will no longer have the engineers I sit down with hearing what he has to say. every week telling me, “We can’t go around Water Orton primary school because speed means it must be a Mrs Ellman: I rise to support amendment 17. I am a straight line; we can’t go around ancient bluebell woods firm supporter of High Speed 2. The case for it is because speed means it must be a straight line.” If we essentially one of capacity. It is entirely wrong to state, slow it down, we will be able to avoid going over many as some commentators have done recently, that the of the sensitive areas on the route and perhaps even put argument for capacity is something new that has been in more stations. brought in only at this stage. That is simply not so. The report that the Transport Select Committee produced Mrs Ellman: The strategic review and other studies two years ago made it clear that the need for increased indicate that alternatives have been looked at and rejected. capacity formed the basis of the case for HS2. Network Rail states that more than 100 cities and towns Amendment 17 deals with linking HS2 to the rest of could benefit from this development. Named in the the transport network. It specifically mentions the need various reports are places including Watford, Milton for it to link to roads and airports. It is important that it Keynes, Rugby and Northampton, but many more are should not be seen as a development that is separate possible. There is also a need to increase capacity for from the rest of the rail network or indeed from the rest freight, which is as important as passengers. About of the transport network. I therefore welcome the 20 new freight paths can be developed, but I would view amendment. It is unfortunate that, because no decision that as the absolute minimum. has been taken on the need for increased airport capacity Mrs Gillan: I hear what the hon. Lady says about in the south-east, no firm proposals on Heathrow have freight. How does she react to what Lord Berkeley said? been finalised. That matter needs urgent attention. There He heads up the Rail Freight group and said that HS2 is also an issue about freight. In Liverpool, for example, will in fact constrain freight because it does not link up the expansion of the port is creating a need for more properly with the existing network on the west coast freight paths and better access for freight. That, too, main line and its northern end in phases 1 and 2? He needs attention. I welcome the amendment in that it should know, should he not? draws attention to networks and connectivity. Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Mrs Ellman: Lord Berkeley was pointing out issues In speaking to amendment 17, the hon. Lady is, in of practical difficulty, but they can be worked on. essence, setting out an early case for design changes. Indeed, the purpose of this debate and subsequent Can she confirm that the existing contingency in the debates is to identify where the problems are and to do spending envelope does not include provision for any something about them. No plans are finalised. We are such changes? talking about principles and strategies. It is essential to look at critical detail and to make changes where they Mrs Ellman: The hon. Gentleman needs to direct are necessary. Debates such as this one are an integral such questions to HS2 itself. It is extremely important part of that important process. that all the financial aspects are fully considered. This specific amendment is to do with networks. The question Mr Sheerman: I have great admiration for my hon. of access to the high-speed network is critical, and that Friend as Chair of the Select Committee, but she knows involves roads as well as other rail tracks. the Department for Transport better than most people, 1119 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1120
[Mr Sheerman] any reports that have looked at that. I am sure that the Transport Committee will look again at the information, and we have had from it a catalogue of confusion and as we have it. chaos over the west coast franchise and now over the planning for HS2, as it has changed the priorities, rules Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Does my hon. and bases of all the assumptions. Is she confident that Friend agree that the business case is not just about the this HS2 project has been thoroughly prepared and that financial case? Public transport is a public service, so we the grounds for it are absolutely perfect? need to look at the need to run trains throughout the country. We should not be looking only at pound signs, Mrs Ellman: It is essential to apply the necessary but at the overall need for this service. commercial expertise to this scheme—whether it be directly in the Department for Transport or in HS2 Mrs Ellman: I agree with my hon. Friend’s general itself. I am encouraged by the new appointment of point. It is important to assess individual aspects of the Sir David Higgins to lead this process. I think that will project, but we also need to look at the concept and give people increased confidence, which is indeed necessary. what it is trying to achieve. It is about expanding essential infrastructure in this country. If we do not Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): If have vision and if we are not prepared to look ahead at the hon. Lady is so convinced of the business case, will the nation’s needs, we will lack the essential infrastructure she explain why the Government are now on the fifth needed for economic prosperity. It is essential, too, to revision of the business case for HS2? Does she think look at the detail, which is why we called for a review of this will be the last revision, or will there be another the cost-benefit ratio, for a review of the environmental 25 over the next 25 years to justify the case? I simply and economic factors and for up-to-date information cannot believe it: it is amazing that the project has gone on the projections of capacity, for freight as well as up by £10 billion and the Government have now managed passengers. The concept must not be lost in the vital to find £10 billion-worth of supposed benefits. I put it necessity to look at the individual components and to the hon. Lady that this is the biggest work of fiction make an assessment of them. since Enid Blyton. Mr Roger Godsiff (Birmingham, Hall Green) (Lab): Mrs Ellman: It is for Ministers to say why the business My hon. Friend is surely aware of the National Audit case has been reviewed so many times, but when the Office report on this subject, which referred to Transport Select Committee looked at the issue two “fragile numbers, out-of-date data and assumptions that do not years ago, it approved a high-speed line, but pointed to reflect real life.” a number of critical areas where it was felt more work What does she say to that? should be done, which included looking again at the business case. One reason for that was the valuation put Mrs Ellman: The strategic review produced this week on the time people spent travelling, when it was alleged provides the up-to-date information. When the previous they could not work. We thought that that was not a reports, including the NAO report, were produced, that correct valuation and that it should be looked at again. information was not available. It is necessary to examine We raised issues of environmental concern and said the new information that has come forward and look at they should be looked at again, as we did with issues it very carefully indeed—and that is the up-to-date relating to economic impact, particularly the need to information. As I say, previous reports did not look have economic development strategies as well as the at it. essential rail travel links. The Select Committee called for a review of the case, Andrew Bridgen: The hon. Lady talks about looking looking at those specific factors and stressing the importance at the detail, so let us look at the facts. This project of relevant and up-to-date information. We thought it started out at £20 billion; it has hit £50 billion; the would be absolutely wrong to use information that was Treasury is working on £73 billion—and it was all not up to date and that ignored the concerns we had priced in 2011 money, with indexation of 3% on top of raised. The report supported the project in principle, it. Is it going to go the same way as HS1, which started but raised real concerns, which we said must be addressed at £1.5 billion and finished up at £11 billion? before any final decision could be taken. Not all of those concerns have yet been addressed, but some of them Mrs Ellman: Again, I think it is for the Minister to have been, as we have discussed today. answer those questions. This specific amendment deals with networks. The hon. Gentleman raises an important Mr Sheerman: On that very point, my hon. Friend’s issue about the costs and the contingencies and how very good report was two years ago and since then they will be put together, but that is a matter for the many people have used it to do the very thing she asked Minister and for broader debate than for discussion on to be done. The subsequent reports built on her report, this specific amendment. however, show a very different picture. Is that not the problem? Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): When the Transport Select Committee went to France Mrs Ellman: I do not know to which reports my hon. to look at the economic impact of high-speed rail, we Friend refers, but there have been no comprehensive found that there was a huge economic benefit in Lille reports looking at the whole scheme. Some have looked and most other cities. The fact is that the Department at some aspects of it, but not at the up-to-date information, for Transport assessments do not capture that economic which was published only this week. I am not aware of benefit. Talking about people working on trains really 1121 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1122 misses the point about the economic impact and the Mrs Ellman: I think it essential for HS2 to think economic benefit that will come from high-speed rail. about how it can assist areas that do not look as though Does my hon. Friend agree? they will benefit, such as Coventry.The current process—not just today’s debate, but the consultations that are taking Mrs Ellman: I do agree. When the members of the place and the progress of the hybrid Bill—enables important Select Committee went to France and elsewhere in points to be raised, such as the one raised just now by Europe to look at high-speed rail there, we were struck my hon. Friend. I am fully sympathetic to that. by the success of the system and by the enthusiasm with which it was greeted by people living in the areas that it Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I am sure served. Indeed, what struck us was they wanted more: that my hon. Friend is aware of the tram-train pilot more stops, more stations, more access to high-speed scheme which will begin in Sheffield in 2015, and which rail. That made a considerable impact on us. may lead to an excellent opportunity for trams to use under-utilised heavy rail track to connect wider city 1pm regions through high-speed rail stations. Will my hon. Friend encourage the Government to carry out a review? Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Does the hon. Lady Indeed, the Select Committee itself might wish to look think that the Spanish economy has benefited from into the matter. Spain’s investment in high-speed rail?
Mrs Ellman: I am here to talk about the United Mrs Ellman: That is an example of the kind of Kingdom and an amendment concerning networks. development that should be supported. What concerns me is not that the principle of high-speed Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): rail is not recognised—indeed, it is clear from what has Does the hon. Lady agree with the comments of the been said by Members today that the importance of hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham connectivity, in general and in relation to specific areas, Stringer), which appeared in the Evening Standard yesterday? is very well understood—but the possibility that it is not He said: being pursued strongly enough at the national level “The leadership have completely misjudged the mood both of to guarantee its consistent application throughout the the Parliamentary Labour Party and the party in the whole of the country. country.” I referred earlier to initiatives taken in the west midlands Mrs Ellman: I am a firm supporter of High Speed 2. I and to statements made by the Core Cities Group, and I believe that it will increase capacity and create the know that a great deal of work is being done in Manchester, infrastructure that is essential for the future of the but I am not sure that that is happening everywhere in nation. the country, and I think it important for someone to take the lead. Of course work must be done in the Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) regions. Elected Members and local businesses know (SNP): Rail infrastructure in Spain has been mentioned. their areas and are aware of the opportunities and the Studies show that the economies of both Seville and potential, but someone should be ensuring that the Madrid have benefited from a high-speed line, although same is happening nationally, so that we do not miss out only Seville was expected to benefit. on the vital and perhaps unique opportunity to develop our network for the benefit of localities, regions, and Mrs Ellman: That is an important point. indeed the country as a whole.
Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): I am sure Mr Sheerman: When my hon. Friend’s Committee that the Select Committee is aware of a contrasting was considering HS2, she will have been made aware example, namely the line between Le Mans and Tours. of the likely cost, which is estimated to be at least Le Mans invested in a local connection to the TGV £80 billion. Should not the people who will be affected route, and saw a tenfold increase in economic benefit be allowed a vote? I agree with her about the northern compared with Tours, which had failed to do so. That hub, of which I am in favour, but if my local people had underlines the importance of local connectivity. a vote, would they vote for all that money to be invested in this high-speed train? I do not think so. Mrs Ellman: The right hon. Lady has drawn attention to the importance of connectivity and the importance Mrs Ellman: I do not accept the figure that my hon. of using the opportunities offered by high-speed rail to Friend has given, but the people do, in fact, have a vote. bring benefit to areas that are not on the line. That is an They have a vote with which they can elect a Government essential component. In the regions, a great deal of by voting in Members of Parliament, and they have work has been done to assess what the benefit might be. a vote with which they can elect members of local Centro estimates that there will be an additional 22,000 authorities—and I note that the leaders of the major jobs in the west midlands, while the Core Cities Group local authorities in the north are speaking very loudly expects an additional 400,000. indeed in favour of this project. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): My hon. Friend speaks of the economic benefits for the Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): Does the hon. Lady midlands. Cities like Coventry will certainly not benefit agree that we should commend Labour-controlled and from this investment; indeed, the opposite will be the Conservative-controlled Worcestershire—my own authority case. —for their foresight in predicting the benefits of HS2? 1123 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1124
Mrs Ellman: I do agree. I think that that is an economic development opportunities for most parts of excellent example of what could be done. However, I the country, but they must be grasped, and unless want to be sure that such examples are being followed somebody is in charge of making sure that happens, up nationally. they will be squandered.
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Let The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport us assume that the Government’s £50 billion estimate is (Mr Robert Goodwill): Of the amendments in this correct. That investment is expected to bring the greatest group, I was delighted to be able to add my name to benefits to Birmingham, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds amendment 17 tabled by the Labour Front-Bench team. and Manchester: five cities. Does my hon. Friend think That demonstrates the cross-party support and co-operation that if the £50 billion were broken up into nuggets of we will need to deliver this project, which is so vital to £10 billion, and if each city were offered that amount to the future of our country. Indeed, when I offered to add promote its local economy, the five of them would my name, I was asked, “Would you like to go on first, decide to club together to pay for a high-speed rail link? Minister?” I said, “No, no; I wouldn’t want people to [Laughter.] get the wrong idea.” Our intention has always been for this landmark project to be part of a truly connected Mrs Ellman: The whole point of major infrastructure and integrated transport system, and the amendment is that it makes a major difference in connectivity across would ensure that any preparatory work needed to the country, which benefits all parts of the country. If integrate HS2 with the rest of our transport infrastructure that benefit is fragmented, it will not accrue. can be funded using the Bill’s expenditure powers. I certainly support economic development in the Phases 1 and 2 of HS2 will directly link eight of regions, and I deplore the abolition of the regional Britain’s 10 largest cities, serving one in five of the UK development agencies, but I hope that the local enterprise population. HS2 will also connect to the existing rail partnerships—alone, working together, or working in network, so as soon as phase 1 is built, high-speed rail transport cores—will ensure that economic benefit comes trains can start directly serving 28 cities in the UK. to their areas, and that the Government provide the I welcome the reference to “footpaths”and “cycleways” support that will enable that effort to be private sector-led in amendment 17 tabled by the hon. Member for Wakefield and succeed. (Mary Creagh), and I should point out that as part of the Government’s wider commitments to boosting cycling Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Obviously in the UK, in August 2013 the Prime Minister announced we are talking about a lot of money, but if it is true that the commissioning of a feasibility study to explore how the rail capacity of the three main north-south lines will we might create a new cycleway that broadly follows the be exhausted within about 15 years, what impact does proposed HS2 corridor. Such routes would also be open my hon. Friend expect that to have on the economies of to pedestrians—presumably this is a case of great minds the cities north of London? thinking alike. The cycleway could provide cycling and walking routes for the public to enjoy, linking local Mrs Ellman: My hon. Friend has made a crucial communities and stations to the countryside and tourist point, which goes to the nub of the matter. If those lines destinations along the way, and benefiting those living run out of capacity—which, indeed, they are rapidly along the HS2 route. doing—a grave blow will be dealt to the economies in the northern regions, in terms of passengers and freight. HS2 will be at the centre of an unprecedented level of One of the reasons why more freight cannot travel by investment in the nation’s transport infrastructure. From rail now is the fact that no freight lines are available. 2015-16 to 2020-21 the Government have committed High Speed 2 will solve that problem. £56 billion-worth of investment in road and rail, on top of the £16.5 billion investment in HS2. We are investing Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): A railway more than £6 billion in this Parliament and £12 billion line is for many decades, not just for the immediate in the next on road maintenance, enough to resurface future. When considering the whole issue of connectivity 80% of the national road network and fill 19 million and networks, did the Committee think about the potholes each year. implications of a longer time scale rather than some of the much shorter ones that people are currently discussing? Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to the Minister for confirming the billions of pounds the Department for Transport is Mrs Ellman: The Committee was very clear about the going to spend over the next five or six years, but how fact that this is about the future, and about long-term does he respond to the National Audit Office, which has thinking. I strongly believe that while it is always essential highlighted serious doubts over the ability and capacity to scrutinise spending, it is also essential to have vision. of both the Department for Transport and its subsidiary If we do not have vision, we do not have a future. I note company, HS2 Ltd, to deliver the project successfully? that the aim of Lord Deighton’s taskforce is to maximise He is now claiming to have one of the largest infrastructure the economic benefit that can result from High Speed 2, budgets of any Government Department, but the NAO but I am not sure whether that includes expanding does not think the Department is fit to run it. connectivity and making the maximum use of freed lines, as well as more economic development issues. I Mr Goodwill: The Department has gained a lot of ask the Minister to give us a response at the relevant experience in managing big projects from projects such time as to who, if anybody, is in charge of expanding as Crossrail. Following the appointment of Sir David connectivity and the opportunities offered by HS2 so Higgins to head HS2 from January onwards I feel very the maximum economic benefit can be realised. HS2 is confident indeed that we can deliver this project on needed for capacity reasons, and it produces major budget and on time. Indeed, the budget is about £50 billion. 1125 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1126
Therefore, if rolling stock were excluded and nothing Mr Goodwill: The trains do not stop at Manchester else was done with the Department’s budget, this project and Leeds; they keep going. In terms of the connectivity would be the equivalent of about 10 months of the of this new system, it is important that we take traffic Department’s total budget. That puts it into context. away from the existing rail network and allow more We are adding 400 miles of capacity to our busiest freight and passenger services so as to address the motorways thanks to work scheduled in this Parliament problem of the 5,000 people every weekday morning and the next, and between 2014 and 2019 Network who are standing as they arrive at New Street in Rail has put forward plans to spend £37.5 billion on Birmingham. To address that problem we need to ensure improvements to the railways. We are clearly not putting we have the connectivity. all our eggs in the HS2 basket, therefore—far from it, Limiting this legislation to a particular phase, or to in fact. particular phases, would simply mean that a further Bill HS2 will be integrated with the nation’s airports, with would be required to be placed before Parliament to direct services to Manchester and Birmingham airports prepare for any potential future phase. and a short connection to East Midlands airport from On Scotland, I would simply say that officials from the east midlands hub station. the Scottish Government made clear during this Bill’s Committee stage that they are content with the Bill as it Mr Sheerman: What the Minister has just said is is, and see no need for the naming of any locations in rather confusing ,because the Howard Davies inquiry Scotland. The critical point is that the network is defined has not yet reported. We can get very lovey-dovey about as “at least” including the named locations in the Bill. HS2 in some regards, but there has been no love lost on Therefore, not including locations in Scotland will not the London airports question. When are we going to be a barrier to high-speed rail extending there at some make up our minds about London airports, let alone point in the future. The locations named are limited to the rail service to feed them? those which have been named in public consultation documents issued by the Department. 1.15 pm Again I must stress that while some rolling stock will run exclusively on the high-speed network, so-called Mr Goodwill: The timetable for the Davies commission classic compatible gauge trains will run through to report is well known, and there will be an interim report Glasgow and Edinburgh. These new trains are part of in December. Whether or not we put the spur in from the £7.5 billion rolling stock investment in the project HS2 down to Heathrow, in the plans we have published and their arrival in Scottish cities will demonstrate how there is already a connection through Old Oak common; HS2 will benefit Scotland at an early stage. there will be an 11-minute connection to Heathrow via the Crossrail service with up to eight services an hour. Mr MacNeil: Can the Minister confirm that once this So Heathrow will have connection whether or not we rolling stock reaches Edinburgh it can go further north embark on the spur. up to Aberdeen and cities in between?
Karen Lumley: Does my hon. Friend agree, however, Mr Goodwill: That will be for the railway companies that a 38-minute journey time makes it easy to get from to decide; it will be up to them to decide how best to London to Birmingham international airport, which utilise this stock. Obviously, the rolling stock will be means that people in north London would not need to rolled out as it is produced, but having trains arriving in go to Heathrow? Glasgow and Edinburgh at that early stage of the project will make a major contribution to helping to Mr Goodwill: Indeed, that will increase choice for keep our kingdom united. people who have the unfortunate experience in life of having to live in the south-east of England. It will give Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I wish them more opportunities to visit the north and use to begin by welcoming the Under-Secretary of State for airports up and down the country. Transport, the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby We need to ensure that we maximise the cumulative (Mr Goodwill) to his place. I know that he has a strong benefit of individual investments by ensuring they are personal interest in transport issues. Although I am all properly connected. I have to say that amendments 18 sure we will disagree on many issues, I am glad that we and 19 in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member have been able to reach agreement on a number of for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) slightly confuse today’s amendments, and I look forward to our future me. Amendment 19 seeks to limit expenditure to projects debates. under phases 1 and 2 of the Bill, which finishes in Leeds Amendment 17 has its origins in the Bill’s Committee and Manchester, but amendment 18 says that there stage. Members on both sides of the House contributed should be more connectivity in Scotland. There is a to its development, after my right hon. Friend the degree of contradiction in those two amendments. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) moved an amendment requiring integration with other David Mowat: My hon. Friend has just said that modes of transport. The Minister at the time, the right phase 2 finishes in Manchester, which indeed it does as hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), who is in his far as the business case and the benefits statement place, said that he was minded to accept it. We want KPMG produced are concerned, yet under phase 2 we people to have a real choice about how to travel, be it by are building a 40 km spur north of Manchester. I rail, by car, on a bicycle or by walking. We especially wonder about the logic of that, since there is a £1 billion want to make sure that active travel is an attractive cost with no benefit. Is that an under-run that the option, because it has many huge benefits, including for Minister could book at this point? health and tackling congestion. We want that to be 1127 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1128
[Lilian Greenwood] coast main line, and it is vital that everyone in the country is consulted on how the additional capacity is encouraged, so we welcomed the move to have better used when it is created by the high-speed line. integration. We warned, however, that any amendment should pay regard to walking, cycling and light railways, Mark Pawsey: The hon. Lady has moved on to the so I am pleased that those concerns have been addressed question of capacity on the west coast main line. Does by this sensibly worded addition to the Bill—of course I she accept that the heavy growth that took place on that would say that, because it stands partly in my name. line occurred immediately after the upgrade in 2008, Light rail will play an important role in linking and that since that upgrade the rates of increase have stations in Birmingham, the east midlands and Sheffield slowed tremendously and that, therefore, there could be to the high-speed network. The importance of making additional capacity on the existing line? Does she also conventional rail accessible to pedestrians and cyclists accept that we can create more capacity by having is now recognised across the country; we have seen longer carriages, and by changing the mix between first increasingly that railways stations have been adapted in and second class? that respect. It is right to enshrine that objective in the legislation for HS2. It is a real achievement that both Lilian Greenwood: It is well known that on the west cycling and walking will now be acknowledged in the coast main line the additional capacity created by the Bill on the same basis as other modes of travel. We need upgrade is already starting to run out and that the line to acknowledge that when people make a journey they will be full. Of course we can create additional capacity regard it as starting when they close their front door. on a train by converting some carriages from first class Making that whole journey as seamless as possible—not to standard class, but that does not create extra space just the train bit, but how they get to the railway station on the line for additional trains. As the Minister and how they progress at the end—is vital. We therefore acknowledged, places such as Shrewsbury and Blackpool welcome the approach that has been taken. want to have an additional direct service but cannot Amendment 17 is a good example of a Bill being because the capacity is just not available. I am sure that improved through parliamentary scrutiny. Integration the hon. Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) would like between high-speed rail and the conventional rail network to have directed his question to the Minister. will benefit communities far beyond the areas directly served, and we want to make sure that HS2 is fully Andrew Bridgen: Under freedom of information requests, accessible to everyone, irrespective of their mode of we have discovered that the average spare capacity on travel. I am happy to commend the amendment to the the west coast main line is currently 40% and that House. demand at peak time actually increased by only 0.9% last year?
Mr Sheerman: Given some predictions of the level of Lilian Greenwood: I am not sure why the hon. Gentleman fare that might be charged on HS2, many people think did not address that to the Minister who is responsible it will be exclusively for very well-off business people for the railway. I feel like I have been given entire and that ordinary people will not be able to use it. responsibility for it, although I would be happy if we swapped places. The point is that the capacity is not Lilian Greenwood: I thank my hon. Friend for that. available at the times when people want to travel—at He is right to say that we cannot afford the new high-speed peak times—and that there is insufficient capacity for rail line to become a “rich man’s toy”, as a former additional services and for freight, which is also vital. Secretary of State put it. Clearly the new network must be available to everyone, and I am sure the Minister will Mrs Gillan: Some people who study this subject and confirm the view that the fares will be no greater than take issue with the Government’s claims about capacity they are on the current network. on the west coast main line say that much of that capacity could be improved by allowing Virgin Trains Mr Jim Cunningham: Has my hon. Friend taken into passengers in peak hours to get off at Milton Keynes—that consideration the frequency of the trains on the west currently does not happen. What is the hon. Lady’s coast main line and what effects this new project will opinion of that? What studies has she made of how that have on that? could relieve capacity problems in the future?
Lilian Greenwood: The whole point of the project is Lilian Greenwood: I am sure that many people who to provide extra capacity, including on the west coast want to go to the north would not, for a minute, wish to main line. Obviously, the detail of what timetables will get off at Milton Keynes. The fact is that there simply is be in place needs to be worked out, but we would hope not enough capacity. I am sure that people who live in that they will be able to provide additional services to Milton Keynes are looking forward to the extra capacity many cities, including my hon. Friend’s city, and we will created by HS2 and the possibility of additional services, call for that. particularly for commuters, that that will free up on the west coast main line. Mr Goodwill: There will certainly be very good news Let me now deal with the amendments relating to the for people in Shrewsbury and Blackpool, where operators links to Scotland. Labour has always supported the are keen to provide services but cannot currently do so principle of bringing high-speed rail to Scotland, which because of congestion on the existing network. is why the previous Labour Government set up HS2 Ltd to examine possible routes to Scotland. HS2 will bring Lilian Greenwood: The Minister rightly talks about real benefits, enabling faster journey times and adding the capacity constraints we already face on the west to capacity on the main line routes to Scotland. We 1129 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1130 wanted to put those benefits in the Bill in Committee, into territory that is covered by the Davies commission. but we were told by Transport Scotland that the Scottish The Labour Front-Bench team share the frustration of Government opposed altering the Bill. It was therefore those who want to see from the commission an earlier somewhat curious to see the Scottish National party resolution of the issue of airport capacity. It was we tabling such amendments. who called for those cross-party talks, to which the One purpose of the Bill is to provide a legal basis for Government somewhat belatedly agreed. Nevertheless, future extensions of the high-speed network, providing we are bound into the process and there can be no that the economic case can be made for them. With the justification for delaying preparation work on this important Government failing to keep the costs under control, we project until after the election, when that commission is need to focus today on the HS2 network as planned. I due to report. would be interested to hear what work the Government We want to see the new high-speed line built without are doing on the costs and benefits of extending the further delay. The whole country can benefit from the line. We have seen reports in the media that the Government improved capacity and connectivity that it will bring. I are going to launch a feasibility study into extending am happy to see it fully integrated into the wider the line to Scotland. I do not know whether the Minister network and to support amendment 17. would like to take this opportunity to intervene to confirm that and explain the timetable for the study. Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham South Mr Goodwill: I always think it is a good idea not to (Lilian Greenwood). I confirm that I will support try to run before we can walk; let us get to Birmingham amendment 17. As she rightly said, it resulted from an and Manchester first. I am sure that we will be looking idea put forward by the right hon. Member for Holborn at extensions, but they are not at the top of my to-do list and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) and my right hon. at the moment. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman). If we are to have an integrated transport system, it is crucial Lilian Greenwood: I thank the Minister for his response; that we do not link just high speed rail to the conventional clearly the media reports are wrong. It is ironic that the lines, but take into account all the other forms of SNP should be proposing to take this line to Scotland, transportation to help people get from A to B. given that the one thing we can guarantee is that the SNP plans for separation would make the possibility of It is particular pleasure to see the Under-Secretary of a high-speed line across the UK even less likely. State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), in his place Mark Lazarowicz: One can excuse the Minister for and leading on the issue. It is an important issue and I not having this at the top of his to-do list only because know that he will do well on it, ably supported by he is new in his job. I have asked similar questions of officials at both the Department for Transport and previous Ministers over the past few months, so may I High Speed 2. suggest to my hon. Friend that if it is not at the top of a I support amendment 17 and oppose amendment 18 Minister’s to-do list now, it should be pretty soon and and the amendments that flow from it. In many ways I that the Minister should be giving details of this study have a feeling of déjà vu, because we had copious in the near future? debates in Committee on the matter, and I never quite understood why so many people got certain parts of Lilian Greenwood: My hon. Friend is right. We will their apparel in such knots over the issue. It is clear continue to press the Minister on the issue in the from clause 1(2) that the Bill applies to months ahead. “railway lines connecting at least— Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady has made the same London, catastrophic mistake as the Minister in thinking that a Birmingham, transport project is the same as a political governance the East Midlands” project. If that were true, High Speed 1 could have been construed by the Eurosceptics on the Government Benches and so on. The whole point of the Bill and the purpose as part of some major European integration project, of getting it on to the statute book is to provide financing and the high-speed line that is going through the Baltic not of an actual project, but of the preparations for the countries up to Helsinki would be seen as some nation- project ad infinitum, because High Speed 2 need not unification project. It is not; it is a transport project. I necessarily stop at Leeds or Manchester. My right hon. encourage the hon. Lady not to make the same daft Friend the Secretary of State for Transport made that mistake as the Minister made earlier. plain in October last year, when he announced that he was going to set up an inquiry into the feasibility of a third phase to Scotland. 1.30 pm The Bill will allow the expenditure of money for the Lilian Greenwood: I can assure the hon. Gentleman preparation of not only phases 1 and 2, but potentially that we will not be making any of the same mistakes as phase 3, if there is one, a spur to south Wales, if a the Minister. business case were made that it was needed, to the Finally, I take the opportunity to comment on south-west or—a possibility closer, I suspect, to the amendment 23 in the name of my hon. Friend the heart of the distinguished Chair of the Transport Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). Committee, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside He has rightly introduced this amendment to advance (Mrs Ellman)—all the way into Liverpool. The Bill his constituency and the interests of the people living grants the Government permission to spend the money there, but I am concerned that we would be straying on those preparations. 1131 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1132
[Mr Simon Burns] Mr Burns: My hon. Friend makes an extremely valid point. I was particularly interested to hear his views in The thought that there will not be full and proper the debate because he is a Kent MP. When I first came consideration of the continuation of the project to into the House 26 and a half years ago, in one of the Scotland at some point is bizarre. It is an obvious part first Adjournment debates I ever sat in and listened of a viable rail network along the spine of the country to—I confess that I have not listened to many since, for it to continue in time to Glasgow, Edinburgh and except those that I have taken part in—two of my hon. potentially—depending on the wishes of Government Friends made a vigorous case that, if High Speed 1 and the business case at the time—beyond that. That is went ahead, it would turn the garden of England into what the Bill does. the garbage can of England, destroy house prices, ruin the economy of Kent and end the world as we knew it. Mrs Gillan: Will my right hon. Friend give way? High Speed 1 went ahead and Kent’s economy has been regenerated and improved. House prices have not gone Mr Burns: I will give way to my right hon. Friend, through the floor; in fact, house prices along the line of then I will make progress. route have kept pace with those in other areas. In some cases, they have increased beyond them because of the Mrs Gillan: I am sorry that my right hon. Friend houses’ proximity to good commuter links. Capacity observed members of the Committee getting parts of has increased, particularly for those commuters who are their apparel in a twist. As I was not a member of the prepared to use High Speed 1 from Canterbury, for Committee, it obviously was not mine. He has outlined example, to London. what so many critics beyond this place say of the The supreme irony is that one town in Kent, Maidstone, Bill—that it is a blank cheque. Can he confirm that it is successfully lobbied not to have a station—it was put at an open-ended financial commitment to spend any sum Ebbsfleet instead—and people are now begging for a of money on any part of any preparation for any station at Maidstone because they are missing out on railway network anywhere in the country—the blank the regeneration and improvements to the economy cheque that everybody dreads? that are taking place in Ashford and Ebbsfleet. The other irony—my right hon. Friend the Member for Mr Burns: My right hon. Friend is right—she was not Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) should listen on the Committee. It seemed as though she was, because carefully to this, because I know she is a lady with she was in the Public Gallery the whole time, assiduously an open mind and strong views—is that Kent county following our deliberations. I think I am right in saying, council, along with hon. Members of this House, led from memory, that we discussed a number of amendments the opposition to High Speed 1 in the late ’80s but is that she tabled for that Committee which were moved now a strong supporter of the high-speed railway because by members of the Committee. of the benefits it has brought to the community and My right hon. Friend advances an argument, but the county. The leaders and officials of Kent county repeating it does not mean it becomes more accurate. council have offered to go and talk to the leaders of That argument is that the project has a blank cheque. It Buckinghamshire county council, Warwickshire county does not have a blank cheque. It is not a machine for council and Staffordshire county council to explain printing money. There are very tight financial procedures that in their experience the railway did not destroy in place to ensure that it does not exceed budget. their communities or environment but actually greatly Before anyone asks how that can be considered a enhanced them. Unfortunately, there is certainly one viable proposition, one should look at Crossrail, the county council that does not seem to have the wish or largest engineering project in Europe at present, a multi- the will to hear the facts or the benefits that high-speed billion pound project. Owing to tight financial controls, rail could bring. it is on time and on budget, and I have every confidence that, with the mechanisms that have been put in place, Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab) rose— that will be the case with HS2. I see figures quoted about what the project will cost which are from Alice in Mr Sheerman rose— Wonderland. The cost is £42.6 billion, but that sum includes £14.4 billion of contingency funding, of which Mr Burns: I will not give way, for the simple reason the vast majority, I am confident, will not be spent. that many of my hon. Friends and many Opposition Members want to take part in the debate—[Interruption.] Several hon. Members rose— The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) speaks from a sedentary position. I think it is fair to say Mr Burns: I will give way to my hon. Friend the that we have had many interventions from him today, so Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins), perhaps there might be a chance for someone else to then I will make progress, because a number of my hon. have a turn. Friends want to speak in this time-limited debate. The country needs this project because of all the important arguments: the greater connectivity; the fact Damian Collins: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend that it is an engine for growth; the regeneration along for giving way. Does he agree that there is a myth in this the line of route; and, most importantly, the fact that it country that we cannot do big projects? Look at the will deal with the capacity issue. I think that when High success of Crossrail and the High Speed 1 line and Speed 2 was announced in late 2008 and into 2009, little compare that with the west coast main line upgrade, the thought was given to its name. Those who took the kind of incremental project that some Members are decisions immediately called it High Speed 2, as they keen on, which was four years late and 240% over already had High Speed 1. Unfortunately, it is a misnomer budget. that has, in some ways, led us up a cul-de-sac. 1133 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1134
Of course, faster journey times are important, but money to be spent on the preparations—not on building they are not the most important thing. The most important the railway, because the Bill does not deal with that. For thing is capacity. As I have said before, to echo what those reasons, I will support the hon. Member for Tony Blair said in a different context, it is about capacity, Nottingham South and my right hon. and hon. Friends capacity, capacity. The west coast main line will be full on amendment 17; we gave a commitment to the right by 2024. We need capacity on the conventional railway hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras that we for those who want to travel between London, Birmingham would do so. I will certainly oppose amendment 18 and and Manchester but do not want to go along the whole those that flow from it, however, because they are route, and we need capacity to get even more freight off superfluous and, as my hon. Friend the Minister said, our congested roads and on to the railways. contradictory.
Dan Byles: Will my right hon. Friend give way? Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Burns: I will give way to my hon. Friend, but this Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. A will be the last time that I will do so before I conclude. large number of Members wish to participate in the debate. May I ask people to keep their comments a little Dan Byles: My right hon. Friend and I had many more clipped so that we can facilitate as many people as discussions on this issue during his time as a Transport possible? I cannot impose a time limit as we are on Minister. Yet again, we have come back to the idea that Report, but Members can watch the clock and appreciate it is about not speed but capacity. Would he therefore that 5 to 10 minutes would be a good proxy as regards support redesigning the line to run at a slower speed so the length of their speeches. that it could go around places such as Water Orton primary school, ancient monuments and people’s houses? John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I shall try to be brief. I have tabled amendment 23 on the Mr Burns: I heard my hon. Friend say that in an link between the network and Heathrow. Some hon. intervention on another of my colleagues. Let me tell Members will understand that I have raised the issue on him gently and in a spirit of friendship that, if one takes behalf of my constituents, as is my right, in each debate the line that he is suggesting, it will no longer be a we have had on High Speed 2. high-speed train. In effect, it will be a parallel conventional Let me briefly give the context. My background is in rail line like the west coast main line. All the reports on supporting rail expansion and investment. I represent a having a conventional new rail line in parallel rather constituency with a railway estate and a large number than a high-speed one show that it would cost about of railway workers and, in addition, I chair the RMT 90% of the cost of HS2 but without the benefits that trade union group in Parliament. We have been strongly high-speed railways bring. behind the development of increased capacity and investment, so when the idea of high-speed rail was first 1.45 pm proposed it was welcomed in my constituency for a I know from my meetings with my hon. Friend, and number of reasons. One was that if we could get railway particularly with my hon. Friend the Member for North journeys below four hours, that would take pressure off West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) and others, that Heathrow airport and reduce the need short-haul flights High Speed 2 Ltd, the Department for Transport and into Heathrow. That assisted in our campaign against Ministers have worked overtime to consider ways of the expansion of Heathrow. minimising the problems, where feasible and cost-effective, When the route was published, every Member south through the use of more tunnelling, green tunnelling or of Birmingham could assess its impact on their constituency, slightly adjusting the line of route to try to minimise except me, because the link to Heathrow was not included. them. The route of the link to Old Oak Common was published, but then we were told that there would be a direct link at Stephen Barclay: Will my right hon. Friend give way? some stage, the options would be published, there would be a consultation, a preferred option would be considered, Mr Burns: No, I will not. compensation arrangements for those affected would Unfortunately, a project of this scale and size cannot be discussed and then this House would made a considered meet the problems and objections of every part of the decision. route while still keeping to the reason for and need There are real concerns about the environmental behind the railway. It is rotten when one cannot deal impact where the network hits the north of my borough. with every problem, but we need to balance what is in The right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip the national interest against what can be done to minimise (Sir John Randall) and the hon. Member for Ruislip, the impact. I believe that the Secretary of State for Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd) have valiantly argued Transport, his Ministers, the Department for Transport the case for their constituents and achieved some tunnelling, and High Speed 2 Ltd have gone a considerable way—as but a lot more needs to be done. Other facilities that far as they can—towards meeting and overcoming those serve the whole borough will be affected, such as the problems without ruining the concept of high-speed Hillingdon outdoor activities centre, which will need to rail and without it being disastrous for the taxpayer. be relocated. For those reasons, I am as confident as one can be I am also concerned that my constituents now have that High Speed 2 will become High Speed 3 and go to no idea what impact the route will have on them because, Scotland, and that in years to come it will go to other following the introduction of the Davies commission, parts of the United Kingdom as well. That can happen the whole timetable and consultation process for the in an orderly way only if this Bill is passed to enable link to Heathrow have been deferred until after the next 1135 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1136
[John McDonnell] Steve McCabe: I have great sympathy with my hon. Friend’s predicament, but is not part of the problem general election, which means more years of blight for that the Government are missing a trick? This uncertainty my constituents. That affects all of them, because nine is allowing opposition to the whole project to develop. different options for linking to Heathrow are being Were we to focus on reducing domestic air travel as part discussed, which means everyone’s home or business is of the project’s value by tackling some of the uncertainty, under threat. That is no way to run a railway or consult that would help everybody. on such a massive project. We were promised a logical process with a tight time scale. We were told that as the John McDonnell: My hon. Friend the Member for main network was decided, the routes would be published, Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), who chairs the there would be consultation on a preferred route, and a Transport Committee, has made the point time and decision would be made relatively speedily, which would again, with regard to the overall matter of strategic at least have given us some certainty. That has all gone planning—with regard to aviation, I think that she and now. her Committee are absolutely clueless—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South She knows that she has my respect and affection. If we (Lilian Greenwood) said that we do not want to put off are planning for transport infrastructure of in the long any decision on high-speed rail until after the Davies term, we must ensure that it is integrated. The way to commission reports. The solution, then, is simply to have integration for this project is by ensuring that the ensure that the commission reports earlier. The fact that timetable set out for HS2 is integrated with the Davies it is due to report after the next general election is a commission’s report, which means having the report political fudge to get everybody off the hook. In the sooner. That could be within six months after the initial coming six weeks the commission will report on a range report is published this month. The decision could then of options, but there will be no final report until after be taken before the next general election. It is also about the general election. Why is that length of time needed? being more honest with the electorate on rail and aviation, All the experts, and indeed a number of Government and not only in my constituency, but nationally. Members, have been clear that the deadline could be brought forward so that we can have certainty about the Rehman Chishti: In relation to the hon. Gentleman’s Government’s preferred option before the next general comments on the Transport Committee, in an earlier election. debate on aviation he said that it keeps coming back with the proposed expansion of Heathrow, which he disagrees with. If it keeps coming back with that in Andrew Bridgen: I have great sympathy for the hon. different guises and compositions, clearly that shows Gentleman and his constituents facing the blight of that it must be right. uncertainty over possible routes for HS2 and the link to Heathrow. It is the same for my constituents in relation to the route for phase 2, which is out for consultation, John McDonnell: It shows a consistent aberration of and it could be changed, so huge swathes of my constituency judgment, because time and again Governments eventually and those of fellow Conservative Members are similarly say no. blighted. To paraphrase, we are all in this together. I appeal to the Secretary of State. There is a solution to my constituency problems and those of the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip. First, we John McDonnell: I understand that, which is why I must address the environmental damage that is still said that Members south of Birmingham known roughly being threatened in the north of my borough. The right what the route will be. hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Ruislip, I was given promises and undertakings in this House Northwood and Pinner have a series of requests that about the process that would be followed to determine could readily be met to overcome some of the environmental the route of the link to Heathrow. At least we thought and social damage. we had some certainty on the time scale for the Secondly, please give us certainty. That means having consultations. In fact, I was holding public meetings to the Davies commission’s final report sooner, which go into some detail about the compensation arrangements could be done early next year, and integrating it with for whatever option was to be proceeded with. Now it is the final decision on the link to Heathrow. That way all up in the air again and the route that the link will we will have a properly planned process in which people take is uncertain. The Government have opened discussions can have confidence. Otherwise, I will take every about a potential third runway at Heathrow. Sometimes opportunity I can to vote against high-speed rail until Members can become paranoid in this House and think my constituents are satisfied that their views have been that they are coming for them. taken into account.
Robert Flello: That is nature’s way of saying they are. Karen Lumley: I rise to support amendment 17 and will speak extremely briefly. My views on HS2 are fairly widely known, but I want to place on the record that the John McDonnell: I will not take it too personally. project is needed now. The west coast main line is nearly Frankly, my constituents have had enough of political full, and as a regular traveller on that service I know fudge after political fudge. What they want to know, that it is essential for many commuters. HS2 is about and they want to know it soon, is where the line will go, capacity as well as speed, a fact that is sometimes lost in how they will be affected, how we can cope with the the argument. I totally understand where those of my social, environmental and economic consequences, and colleagues who oppose it are coming from, as there are how they will be fully compensated. also strong views in my constituency, but I firmly believe 1137 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1138 that it is of huge national importance and must go ahead. and 23 minutes. If HS2 goes ahead, the 30 trains a day In my region, the west midlands, we cannot ignore the we have now will be reduced to three and there will be facts: a £1.5 billion increase in economic output, thousands an extra hour’s journey time to pick up the HS2 link, so of additional jobs and increased wages. my constituents will go from taking one hour and 23 minutes to get to London to taking two and a half Rehman Chishti: As a Kent MP who has benefited hours. How is that an improvement for the rest of the from High Speed 1 and over £10 billion of private country? sector investment coming into the south-east, including Kent and Medway, I think that the economic benefits Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman represents his my hon. Friend is talking about for her area are absolutely constituents very well. He will of course forgive me if I vital. People in Kent have seen those benefits, and am not au fait with the train timetable to Stoke-on-Trent. people in the north should not be deprived of them. I It has sadly been an oversight on my part not to visit fully support her in that respect. Stoke-on-Trent. Karen Lumley: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Robert Flello: You would be very welcome. As Members have heard already today, I am a big Mr MacNeil: I am glad to hear from a Labour MP champion of Birmingham international airport. To be that I will be welcome. I will happily make a speech on able to access it from Euston in just 38 minutes will the benefits of Scottish independence not just to Scotland make a huge difference to the people of north London. but to other European countries and to the denizens of It will mean a choice between either Birmingham or Stoke-on-Trent. Gatwick and Heathrow—I know which airport I would choose. Those Members who have travelled from Birmingham international airport know how excellent Robert Flello: You are more than welcome. it is, and those who have not should try it, because they will not regret it. Mr MacNeil: It is great to hear that. The point for HS2 is also about rebalancing our economy. We talk Stoke-on-Trent is probably to better liaise with the rail about that a lot, but this is proof that we are serious authorities and the authorities here to make sure that it about getting on with it. I know that we will hear many is represented and gets a better deal. I am sure that the arguments for and against HS2 today, but I am sure hon. Gentleman, as an assiduous MP—probably the that they were heard when the House debated HS1. finest Stoke-on-Trent has had—will indeed be doing This is something that the country needs, so we should that. I am sure that will now be very welcome in all be brave and stand up for the national interest. We Stoke-on-Trent. owe it to our constituents and to our country. I hope It is in Scotland’s interests to have the high-speed rail that colleagues will join me in the Lobby tonight to vote link. It is also in Scotland’s interests to make sure that for something north of Watford. the north of England is well connected, because we want to make sure that when we are independent we 2pm have on our borders a prosperous region of Europe. The north of England becoming a prosperous region of Mr MacNeil: I wish to speak to amendment 28 tabled Europe is therefore exactly what Scotland wants. When in my name on behalf of my party. Scotland is independent it will do everything it can to The Scottish National party and the Scottish Government facilitate and help that. have been supportive of HS2 in principle. Of course, that is conditional on it being properly managed and, Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD) rose— most importantly, it coming to Scotland, so that Scotland, which pays more tax per capita than the UK average, Mr MacNeil: I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who can benefit from it. We also look to help the rest of the is, let us say, a bit blinkered when it comes to Scottish UK. As I mentioned earlier, the line that links Seville to independence. Madrid, which it was envisaged would help Seville alone, benefited both ends, as, on reflection, it should have done. We want this link because it would link us Mr Reid: Of course I agree that it is important that into the wider European high-speed rail project that the high-speed rail link is extended north to Glasgow will be found in many places in Europe. Scotland, as an and Edinburgh. The hon. Gentleman said that he was economic powerhouse, deserves to be part of that, not speaking to the amendment on behalf of his party. Let just for Scotland but for the rest of Europe, which me draw his attention to the Scottish Government’s deserves to have Scotland linked with it. This will be evidence to the Public Bill Committee. Question 174 happening in 25 or 30 years, by which time quite a few was answered by a representative from Transport Scotland of us will not be in this Chamber, if on this earth; we are as follows: leaving a legacy for the future. “The view of the Scottish Government is that we are content with the Bill as it stands.”––[Official Report, High Speed Rail I am glad to hear that Baroness Kramer will be coming (Preparation) Public Bill Committee, 11 July 2013; c. 100, Q174.] to Scotland tomorrow as part of seeing what benefits can be brought not just to Scotland but to the wider The hon. Gentleman’s party runs the Scottish Government, UK and wider Europe through increased links to the so if it is content with the Bill, why is he speaking to an central belt of Scotland, which is an important market. amendment on its behalf? Robert Flello: The hon. Gentleman talks about the Mr MacNeil: As the hon. Gentleman knows, thinking wider benefits to the UK. At the moment, my constituents is always evolving. When a person is content, they can have a service that gets them into Euston in one hour become happier as a result of improvements. The Liberal 1139 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1140
[Mr MacNeil] Andrew Bridgen: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that if Scotland is mentioned in the Bill, that will satisfy Democrats started from a position of being opposed to Scotland and it will not seek Barnettisation of this student tuition fees and seemed to be content with that, project, which would put the cost up even further? but the position evolved so that they wanted £9,000 tuition fees for students, and they seemed happier still. Mr MacNeil: I am glad to hear Conservative Members He will probably understand that I think that our speak against privatisation. That is very encouraging. evolution towards happiness is perhaps a bit more Perhaps they should have thought about that with understanding of the needs of citizens, whereas the regard to Royal Mail, when they transferred loads of evolution of the Liberal Democrats’ thinking leaves people’s money from the taxpayer to private pockets. many people in debt, unfortunately. [Interruption.] I think I misheard the hon. Gentleman We want Scotland to be linked to a high-speed European and he said “Barnettisation”. It is the accent—I am network. The mistake made earlier, originally by the sorry. If he is indeed talking about Barnettisation, I will right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs come to that point. If he is patient, as I am sure he will Gillan), was to think that this is some sort of political be, he will get an understanding of exactly what our project. It is not. There are high-speed rail links all over viewpoint is. the place. They go to Helsinki through the Baltic states, It is important that HS2 happens and that we work and there is no movement for political unity between within Scotland to make sure that we have connectivity those states. They fiercely retain their independence and can benefit by linking into the network. The Scottish while supporting and helping each other to get rail Government do not agree with the assumptions that links, including high-speed links, through their countries have been made by KPMG and the Department for to move into the main European markets. That is a Transport. We feel that there is an error in some of the natural and understandable thing to do. Many states in modelling and that some of the assumptions are out of Europe are independent and co-operating together. In date. We are more pleased with what came out of the fact, Europe has not been as together as it is now, with Department yesterday, which said: its 50 independent states, since the empires declined. “Scotland will benefit from high speed services from Edinburgh and Glasgow as soon as Phase One of HS2 opens. Phase Two is Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to the Member for the expected to reduce journey times by up to an hour without the former Western Isles constituency for giving way. I need to change trains, benefiting the Scottish economy. The declare an interest because my father was a Scot. Does Government’s goal is for a network that brings the country closer he think that if Scotland becomes independent the UK together, so we are taking forward a study with the Scottish Government will be in a hurry to create the link through Government to consider how these benefits could be extended to the Scottish cities or will they take rather longer? further. This is looking at how to boost capacity and cut journey times between Glasgow/Edinburgh and London to less than three hours”. Mr MacNeil: I think that money talks far more than narrow political ideals as they are expressed at the That journey time offers further access to an inter-European moment. Absolutely yes: the Government will understand market, which is vital for Scotland. full well that it makes sense for the central belt of I hope there will be Barnett consequentials, which are Scotland, one of 40 global mega-regions, to be linked to important, so that Scotland can prepare for the benefits other mega-regions, and the political machinations or of the extension of European high-speed rail. We could whatever political understanding the right hon. Lady consider a link north of Edinburgh up towards Aberdeen. has in her mind will vanish. The former BBC correspondent I often remark that the rail journey between Glasgow Stephanie Flanders put it very well when she said that and Fort William takes about three hours, but the people will play up the difficulties pre-independence but distance is only 100 miles. The average speed is 33 mph, will play them down afterwards and work well and so perhaps medium-speed rail would improve journey co-operate, as in the Baltic states and in Finland. times. The benefits of HS2 will be strong, but they will be Mrs Gillan indicated dissent. stronger still when Scotland is included, as the example of Seville and Madrid shows. We shall work for assurances Mr MacNeil: I am afraid that that is the truth, and from the UK Government that they will consider a I am sure that the right hon. Lady knows it in her heart sensible extension that will benefit not just Scotland, of hearts. but the south-east of England and the European markets. To achieve this link going into Scotland, we have to This is in everybody’s economic interest, as shown by accept that it will go through England first. I hope to the Baltic line running from Helsinki to the European see the benefits in the north of England that Kent has markets. seen. It is only right that our fellow Europeans, wherever High-speed rail will benefit everybody. As the hon. they are, see their economies grow and prosper. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) flippantly We are concerned about the KPMG report that arose said earlier, the counter-arguments suggest that, if from a freedom of information request. The report connectivity is such a bad idea, closing the M6 would showed that part of Scotland could lose economically, result in a boom in the north. Of course, that is nonsense. but on further examination that proved to be only one As Adam Smith said in “The Wealth of Nations”, the part of the picture. It was the worst-case scenario, and more markets and economies are linked, the better for the best-case scenario showed benefits. Rather than all. There will be mutual benefits and we will all win. Scotland losing out, it was shown that HS2 would bring gains of £40 million-odd a year to Aberdeenshire and Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): I will maintain my Morayshire. habit of being brief. 1141 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1142
The Liberal Democrats have long supported a fully the Member for Peterborough is totally wrong. I would integrated transport system, and thus we welcome be happy to take him to Folkestone and show him the amendment 17. We also believe that the only way to areas of the town that are benefiting from the better achieve that is by building a modern, 21st-century railway connection. Yes, there were areas of deprivation in east system, not by merely tweaking a bit of this and a bit of Kent, but the way to do something about that was that, extending a platform here and adding a coach there. better infrastructure and that is what we now have. The west coast main line will run out of space in the next 10 to 12 years. One option would be to improve the 2.15 pm line by extending it, but that would subject passengers to 14 years of weekend bus journeys and chaos, and Stephen Barclay: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the even when completed it would be completely insufficient. generous spirit in which he is taking interventions. To support my parliamentary neighbour, my hon. Friend Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): My the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson), I point hon. Friend will probably be aware that we have already out to colleagues who take issue with his intervention gone through the tortuous process of upgrading the that paragraph 15 of the National Audit Office report west coast main line. It made a significant difference, on HS1 concluded that but, despite billions of pounds having been spent, it is “the project is not value for money.” already full. Key finding 6 states that although passenger numbers grew, they were below expectations and estimates were Mike Thornton: I agree with my hon. Friend and I inflated. think that extending the line would lead to exactly the same result. Mike Thornton: Perhaps I should limit the number of I hope that the right hon. Member for Chesham and interventions I take. Amersham (Mrs Gillan) is sure, like me, that northern local government leaders have the best interests of all Robert Flello: You could at least take one from this their residents at heart. I am puzzled that opponents of side! the scheme seem to think that a high-speed, modern railway system that is fit for the 21st century and that Mike Thornton: I will take one more brief intervention. would increase economic activity throughout the whole of the United Kingdom would not benefit the country Robert Flello: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman as a whole, but only those cities directly served by it. for his generosity. Is he able to answer the question I Surely it is clear that a line that would improve north-south asked the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar links—I include Scotland in that—would at the same (Mr MacNeil) from the SNP? How will the people of time improve and grow the economy of the whole of the Stoke-on-Trent benefit from a worsened service? They United Kingdom, including my constituency of Eastleigh. will have to spend an hour travelling to hook up to a line that will only be as good as the current one, and Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Is the they will have to go from using 30 trains to three. How is hon. Gentleman aware of the evidence the Public Accounts that an improvement? Committee reviewed when we looked at High Speed 1, particularly on the received wisdom of its effect on Mike Thornton: I am afraid it is beyond my capacity regional economic regeneration? It showed that, to decide what trains the relevant train company will notwithstanding that some places in Kent did improve, run, but I doubt we can predict exactly what the train particularly Ashford, there were substantial pockets of times will be in 10, 15, 20 or 30 years’ time. poverty in places such as Dover, Folkestone and Thanet, Members will be glad to hear that I have nearly which were not specifically affected by the regeneration finished. The Liberal Democrats know that a modern, effects of High Speed 1. high-speed, national rail network is vital to the future of this country. Consequently, I fully support the Bill and Mike Thornton: I am sure that building a railway line amendment 17. will not solve every economic problem in every part of the county. I happen to know that the improved economy Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I rise to support of Kent also improved the economy of Sussex and its amendment 17 and I will support the Bill later, too. effect also reached all the way to Hampshire. I want to pick up on one particular point that the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): It pains me to disagree (Mrs Gillan) made at the beginning of the debate and with my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough with which I agree, namely the connectivity problem (Mr Jackson), whom I deeply respect, but the economic with HS2, particularly the lack of a proper link to High benefits to Dover and to Deal in my constituency have Speed 1. That is a serious problem and it needs to be been immense. It has been transformational and made a addressed. I recognise that there has been some massive difference to the whole of east Kent. I urge improvement in the view of how the two high-speed Members of all parties to back HS2. lines should be connected, but the current proposal—this is extraordinary—is for a single track, shared connection Mike Thornton: That is a fine example. and a capacity of only three trains per hour going rather slowly. Damian Collins: Following on from my parliamentary The argument is that that is sufficient capacity for the neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Dover international services likely to be coming to High Speed 2 (Charlie Elphicke), I have to say that my hon. Friend from the channel tunnel. That may be correct, at least in 1143 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1144
[Stephen Timms] from £170 million to £300 million, they said that it was because of unforeseen circumstances, including the need the early years: three an hour may be enough. However, to widen the line. with that constraint in place, it would be impossible to run regular domestic services from High Speed 2 to Stephen Timms: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. High Speed 1, even though we need those regular I am aware that the proposal for that interconnection is connections. Research commissioned by my local authority, now rather more costly that it was initially. However, as the London borough of Newham, suggests that there far as I can see, the problem has not been solved. There could be demand for seven trains per hour on the is still a limit of three trains per hour, which is clearly interconnection between HS2 and HS1 to meet the insufficient. I warmly welcome amendment 17. needs of domestic services. I have found this discussion interesting. I agree with Mrs Spelman: Just to help the right hon. Gentleman the point made by the hon. Member for Folkestone and on the question of whether the expenditure on High Hythe (Damian Collins) about the regeneration benefits Speed 2 will come at the cost of investment in existing of HS1, and that is largely due to domestic services. I infrastructure, which might provide the kind of connection think, therefore, that the new high-speed line has to be that he is seeking, “The Strategic Case for HS2”, which built with sufficient capacity for the domestic services was published yesterday, states: we will need. We certainly want HS2 to connect to “Between 2014 and 2019, Network Rail will spend over £35bn Kent, East Anglia and other destinations, and we need allowing it to continue a substantial programme of expansion proper interconnection between the two high-speed lines and renewal.” in order to facilitate that. That might allow him to seek the kind of amelioration that he wants. Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): I am aware of the right hon. Gentleman’s interest in regeneration. Stephen Timms: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady. Does he agree with my right hon. Friend the Member However, I believe that an adequate connection should for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) that the Bill be part of the initial proposal. does not put a cap on the amount that will be spent? The figures that are quoted go from £14 billion upwards. Stephen Barclay: Will the right hon. Gentleman give I am sure he agrees that there are other infrastructure way? priorities in our constituencies, such as housing, and that there are areas in desperate need of regeneration. Stephen Timms: No, I will not give way again. Does he not think that supporting this project will I welcome amendment 17 and the Government’s deprive those other valuable projects of finance? support for it. I have raised this matter with Ministers before, but I ask the new Minister for the first time to Stephen Timms: I think that investment in this project pay particular attention to the connectivity problem will contribute to national wealth. My concern, however, between High Speed 1 and High Speed 2, which was is that it should be adequately designed and planned. To highlighted by the right hon. Member for Chesham and have a single track connecting High Speed 2 and High Amersham. Speed 1, with a capacity of three trains an hour, is a mistake. Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, Frank Dobson: Will my right hon. Friend give way? my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), to the Front Bench. It is a pleasure to Stephen Timms: I will make one more point before I see him there. give way to my right hon. Friend because it relates to Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking, at least the concerns that he has raised. from this side of the Chamber—I must say what a great If there were a proper link between High Speed 1 and view one gets from the back of the stands—I am happy High Speed 2, some of the trains coming towards to speak in support of amendment 17. London on High Speed 2 would not have to terminate I know that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington at Euston. Some could run on to High Speed 1, some (John McDonnell) has had to go to Westminster Hall to could terminate at Stratford International station, in check up on GCHQ, but, to use words that he would which I have a particular interest, and some could run understand, I give him my fraternal solidarity and will further along High Speed 1. As a result, significantly support amendment 23. I know that it is rather impractical, fewer platforms would be required at Euston than are but that does not always stop us supporting an amendment. proposed and there would be a reduction in the big The issues with Heathrow, which affect his constituents problems in my right hon. Friend’s constituency, to badly, also affect mine. which he has rightly drawn attention. Because the Heathrow loop is in the second phase of the project, we cannot have a decision on it. The Minister Frank Dobson: I am sure my right hon. Friend is right said that connectivity with Heathrow will be amply that the proposal to have a tunnel from Old Oak Common secured through Old Oak Common, so regardless of to Primrose Hill and to run the rest of the connection any decision on the expansion of Heathrow, which I above ground across Camden Town will not provide an hope will not happen, perhaps we can save a bit of adequate service. It will certainly wreak destruction in money and scrap the Heathrow loop straight away. That Camden Town, which the people behind the project would bring great benefits to the London borough of denied until recently. As an indication of their general Hillingdon where we stand as one, although not to my incompetence, when the cost of that proposal went up constituency specifically because there will be tunnelling 1145 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1146 there. My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood Heathrow at one end and to Crossrail at the other. and Pinner (Mr Hurd) and I face some severe problems. Trains would be able to go from Heathrow to Birmingham It would help immeasurably if there was no Heathrow airport or the centre of Birmingham, as well as from loop, because the tunnelling could be extended past the Canary Wharf to the centre of Birmingham. That houses in Ickenham. There is understandably a considerable would double the capacity between London and amount of opposition to HS2 emerging just next to Birmingham very easily. The line could even go on to those properties. Stratford and there could be a transfer—although perhaps I will not take long, because I want to get on to the not an easy one—to the channel tunnel rail link and to proposals on compensation and mitigation. Perhaps I Eurostar. That would solve the only real capacity problem, am being rather optimistic. It is a very important subject. because the others involve train frequencies. My railway I would like to have had the chance to mention the engineer and signalling friends say it is easy to run more awful position of the Hillingdon outdoor activities centre. trains, but the problem is that franchisees of privatised I want that to be looked at. My hon. Friend the Member railways like crowded trains. It is more profitable to run for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner has written to the crowded trains than half-empty trains, so if as many Minister about various matters and I back him up people as possible are crammed on to fewer trains, more entirely. profit is made. Unlike the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington, 2.30 pm who will oppose the Bill tonight, I will support it in the hope and expectation that our gentle requests will be James Morris: The hon. Gentleman talks about capacity looked on more favourably if I am not too much of a between London and Birmingham, but HS2 addresses pain during this early outing on this matter. However, I capacity around Birmingham. Commuter traffic has say to my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front increased by about 20% in and around Birmingham—a Bench that after this rare outbreak of good-natured capacity issue that HS2 will address. It is not just about bonhomie, I will be going back to the default position capacity between London and Birmingham. of grumpy old man of Uxbridge. Kelvin Hopkins: I would like to explore the hon. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): It behoves all Gentleman’s argument further. I would have thought of us who are sceptical about HS2 to suggest practical that was a local transport matter and that we need more and realistic alternatives. investment in local transport, not HS2. Some people say that the project is about capacity, James Morris: The development of HS2 will free up not speed, and others say that it is about speed, not capacity on the west coast main line and on the radial capacity, but most of the emphasis has been on capacity. routes serving Birmingham. That is an important benefit The capacity problem is between London and Birmingham, of increasing capacity with HS2. not elsewhere in the country, where we could have more trains without any difficulty. It is that section of our Kelvin Hopkins: I am convinced that elsewhere on the railway network that I will address. network train frequencies and train paths are the problem. There is an alternative route from Birmingham Snow We have far too few trains on the existing network, and Hill to Paddington. The trains currently run to Marylebone, we could run many more trains much more quickly. but they could easily run to Paddington, which would The only real tight capacity is between London and be quicker and would link up with Crossrail. InterCity Birmingham. Beyond that it is not difficult. 125s could run on that line from the centre of Birmingham I do not want to speak for too long, but I want to to Paddington—a very convenient station—at very little mention other routes. In 1990, British Rail ran a test expense. That would solve the capacity problem between train from London to Edinburgh on the east coast main London and Birmingham. line. They cleared the line of everything else, ran the I will go further and say that that route should be train straight through with a two-minute stop at Newcastle, electrified, which could be done at a modest cost. If it and did the journey in three and a half hours—two was electrified, electric trains could run directly from minutes faster than the original time proposed for HS2. Birmingham Snow Hill—and, indeed, from Birmingham airport and elsewhere—into the City of London, Canary Mark Lazarowicz: Is not the answer to my hon. Wharf and beyond via a link to Crossrail at Old Oak Friend’s objection the fact that, as he said, they cleared Common. the line of everything else? The point is that we cannot just clear the line of everything else. Nadine Dorries: My constituency neighbour is a renowned expert on the railways. Would his proposal Kelvin Hopkins: Perhaps my hon. Friend will allow cost less than HS2? Does he have a figure for it? me to continue. Clearing the lines is obviously not possible all the time, but upgrading the line so that we can have through trains is not difficult. [HON.MEMBERS: Kelvin Hopkins: My railway expert friends tell me “It is!”] I have specifics. We need to double the viaduct that the electrification of that line would cost about north of Welwyn, and four-track the line between £500 million and that the track work that would be Huntingdon and Peterborough. We need flyovers at required at Old Oak Common to link it to Crossrail Peterborough and Newark, and we could then have would cost about £10 million. We are talking about tiny non-stop trains straight through to Edinburgh if we amounts of money in comparison with HS2. wished. The train would have to slow down at Newcastle There could also be a direct link to Heathrow for the and York, but by and large the journey could be done in electric trains, which would go off at Greenford and on three and a half hours maximum. That is the east coast to the Great Western main line. That would link to main line. 1147 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1148
[Kelvin Hopkins] and be a fraction of the cost of HS2. Indeed, upgrading the other lines I have suggested would solve almost all As we know, the midlands main line is going to be the capacity problems that we are now facing. electrified, and we also want it to improve. With some I am a passionate believer in railways, but if we are track remodelling at Leicester and Derby we could serious about them we must invest in dedicated rail-freight make the trains run faster there. We need to straighten capacity, as I have suggested. At the moment the continent out the line at Market Harborough and restore the of Europe is building large rail-freight capacity right straighter line that used to exist, and we must take across the continent; indeed, trains can go from China freight traffic off those three lines. That is the key to to Europe even now. We will miss out on that if we more train paths, because if we can take all the freight cannot transport lorries on trains. We must be able to off those lines, we will not have a problem. To do that, put lorry trailers on trains, or we will not see a shift however, we need an alternative. We have such an alternative from road to rail and the rest of Europe will leave us in GB Railfreight, which I have been promoting for behind. For the sake of our economy, we must invest some years together with colleagues from the railway heavily in dedicated rail freight that is capable of taking industry. We have a detailed scheme, carefully worked lorries on trains. out and costed, to build a dedicated freight line from the channel tunnel to Glasgow, linking all the main Eric Ollerenshaw: It is a pleasure to be called in this conurbations of Britain, and capable of taking lorries debate and to follow the hon. Member for Luton North on trains. We need to take freight off the road—and off (Kelvin Hopkins) who has obviously thought the issue the main lines, of course, but 80% of freight travels by through. Some of his proposals are quite interesting, lorry, not by container or other means. To get lorries on but the fact of the matter is that the success of privatisation trains is crucial to modal shift, and to do that we need a and competition means that we will need the capacity—we gauge capacity that is capable of taking lorries on trains. might need the hon. Gentleman’s suggestions on top of HS2. Nadine Dorries: The hon. Gentleman is incredibly generous in giving way a second time. Will he say why I will support amendment 17, and I thank Ministers he feels that his proposal—which, knowing his interest for finally including the Y route in the Bill. Two years in this subject over many years, I have no doubt is well ago when this scheme was first suggested, there was a thought out and accurate—has not been considered? great debate between Ministers and civil servants about Why is HS2 on the drawing board if the hon. Gentleman’s whether we should build a line just to Birmingham, and proposal is less invasive and more cost effective? a separate one to Manchester and Leeds. I am really grateful to Ministers that the Bill includes London to Birmingham, East Midlands, Sheffield, Leeds and Kelvin Hopkins: I thank the hon. Lady—my close Manchester. I would of course suggest that the left side neighbour—for her question. We took a team of 15 people, of the Y could be built faster and quicker, and would be including rail constructers, and representatives from far better, and I agree with the right hon. Member for Eurotunnel and the supermarkets, to meet Geoff Hoon East Ham (Stephen Timms) that we need to look seriously when he was Secretary of State for Transport. It was at the connection. International business men and foreign clear they were worried that our scheme might conflict tourists will want to get on trains in Europe, bypass with HS2, not because it would take up the same track, London and go straight beyond Manchester on to but because it might remove freight from the railway the spur to get to central, rural Lancashire and see the lines and make the case for HS2 weaker. We argued that delights available. The sooner we can get that done, the HS2 could go ahead if it was thought essential, but that better. a GB freight route is much more vital to Britain’s economy than HS2 has ever been. What is the total cost Mrs Gillan: If HS2 is going to be built, will my hon. of the scheme? A generous figure, based on outturn Friend support my suggestion that it is started in the costs for HS1, would, we think, be less than £6 billion—a north? That would enable the Howard Davies commission tiny fraction of HS2. to report, we could look at airport capacity in the south, and my hon. Friend would get his wish much Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): The hon. quicker because connectivity among northern cities could Gentleman has mentioned various lines, links between be established. the west coast and east coast main lines and so on, but he has not mentioned the Trent Valley spur on the west Eric Ollerenshaw: I thank my right hon. Friend for coast main line, on which Nuneaton station in my that intervention. I always thought that was my suggestion, constituency sits. That is an extremely important junction, but never mind. I do not know how the engineering will and the hon. Gentleman’s proposals will not do anything be done—I assume it will start in many different points to help capacity there or improve fast services from and I agree with my right hon. Friend. One of my Nuneaton, which HS2 would do. earliest interventions in a debate on this issue—two years ago, I think—was to suggest that we start construction Kelvin Hopkins: I think I mentioned that on other now in Glasgow and Edinburgh, while the southern lines there is no problem with capacity, provided we are counties make up their minds which back garden HS2 is prepared to increase train frequencies. We do not do going to go through. that, however, because it is not profitable to do so while private franchisees can make more profit by running Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): Is not fewer trains with more people on them—very simple. the fact of the matter that the real bottleneck is The rest of the railway network clearly needs heavy Birmingham? If we follow the suggestion that we start investment, and Network Rail is undertaking a lot of the project from the north, Birmingham will become an that. This specific scheme would solve many problems absolute nonsense in terms of railway transport. 1149 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1150
Eric Ollerenshaw: I thank my right hon. Friend for and London MPs should realise that, on the current bringing us back to reality—[Interruption.] Sorry, he is system, I can get to London quicker than I can get to my hon. Friend, soon to be right hon. Friend. Birmingham, Sheffield or Leeds. That must be ridiculous We must be serious on capacity. I and fellow Lancashire in the 21st century. The Bill is part and parcel of such Members have been fighting for some time for a direct connectivity. train service from London Euston to Blackpool. We had the agreement of Virgin, and a cross-party group Mr Betts: I reassure the hon. Gentleman that, in was involved, including me, my hon. Friend the Member parts of the north such as Sheffield, the consensus has for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) and never broken. We have always been firmly in favour in the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden). principle. The city’s MPs, the city council—unanimously We thought we were there, but only a month ago, —and the chamber of commerce, and the local enterprise Network Rail said, “We cannot put on two direct trains partnership support high-speed rail as a matter of principle. per day from Euston to Blackpool because the line cannot cope.” Eric Ollerenshaw: I would assume nothing less, having worked with the hon. Gentleman and fellow northern Mr Straw: I confirm what the hon. Gentleman says, MPs to get that extra investment. To be fair, the Government although I would much prefer all trains to turn right at have delivered in the non-high speed section across the Preston to go to Blackburn. The truth is we all have an piece. In my small patch, they have agreed to electrification interest in the prosperity of Lancashire as a whole. I from Blackpool to Preston. Only a few months ago, would like the line to start from the north, but all the nearly £1 million was spent on Lancaster station to economic arguments say that it should start from the enable trains to turn round. All those improvements are south. Does he accept that the benefit of the reduction happening as I speak. They are all part of the connectivity in journey time to Preston is one of the best in the plans in the Bill, which provides preparatory expenditure for for the area? The journey time is improved by 44 minutes—it the is cut to an hour and a half—which will have a dramatic “network referred to in subsection (1)” impact not only on Preston and central Lancashire, but and expenditure on the network that on the whole county. “connects with the existing railway transport network.” Eric Ollerenshaw: Lancaster is not on the line yet—it For me, and for parts of the north where the high-speed might be eventually, and I might stand here in future rail will not reach, that is the key to our support for asking for a stop there—but we will reap the benefit, as the Bill. the right hon. Gentleman says. The spur line that will be I am grateful for the cross-party support, but some built means that high-speed trains will enter the normal hon. Members rightly have concerns in their constituencies. west coast main line just above Wigan. We will enjoy the I ask them to look at the proposals in the context of the benefits of that service, which will be fantastic for the north-south situation. Currently, it seems to my constituents economy of our area. that, when London demands something, things suddenly I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member happen. Perhaps that is an exaggeration, but Crossrail for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), the previous Minister. I cost £16 billion, and nearly £6 billion has been spent on congratulate him on his incredible speech and I am Thameslink—we will take its second-class trains, which grateful for the support he has provided all the way will apparently be marvellous for us. through the process to get the Bill right. Another issue is the north-south balance. People in Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): If only it were so some areas of the north ask why we are spending that easy for London! It has taken 14 years to get investment money. I am grateful for what appears to be an outbreak on the Liverpool street east coast line. I am very grateful of political consensus. Some Government Members to Ministers for it, but it was not provided instantly. and some northern Members were worried that the consensus would break down, but from what right hon. 2.45 pm and hon. Opposition Members have said today, it looks like the consensus is restored, for which I am grateful. Eric Ollerenshaw: That could be a benefit of having a Conservative London Mayor. From my perspective in Charlie Elphicke: I, too, am pleased to hear of consensus. Lancashire, I see that the Olympics cost £9 billion; there Does my hon. Friend share my concern at the comments are continual tube upgrades; I do not know how much of the shadow Chancellor, who says that the money is spent on subsidising bus fares in London; HS1 into would be better spent on roads, cross-country rail, London cost £6 billion; we are immediately talking affordable houses, hospitals and schools rather on important about Crossrail 2. I am not complaining—they are all and essential infrastructure for our children and marvellous things. grandchildren? Mr MacNeil: I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s Eric Ollerenshaw: I am tempted to go down that line, broadcast on behalf of the Lancashire national party. but, given the outbreak of consensus, I will stick with Perhaps there will be a letter to Scotland asking to come that. To be fair, northern MPs of every party have sat and join us. Do not the spend on high-speed rail and the on the all-party parliamentary group on rail in the debate it generates pale into insignificance compared north, and fought together to get the northern hub from with the money we spend in the blink of an eye on the Government—an £800 million completed deal. They nuclear weapons? At the very least, the spend on high-speed have fought together for electrification of the connection rail will leave something tangible in the country. That between Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield. Southern cannot be said of some of our spending. 1151 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1152
Eric Ollerenshaw: I assumed we were already joined beneficial overall to the Scottish economy. That is the to Scotland. That could be an exaggeration—[Laughter.] kind of constructive approach that other communities For some of my constituents, it is not an exaggeration. not directly served by the line should note and use as the For coalition Government Members, one key thing basis for their approach to the development of HS2. was to rebalance the economy of this country. For me, One of my concerns was the possible temptation to high-speed rail is a key part of that. I am grateful for extend the line as far as Birmingham and never any Ministers’ work in getting us this far on the Y shape. I further north. I therefore welcome the commitment in wish we were already into a third high-speed rail or the Bill to go further north in England and the possibility whatever, but High Speed 2 is fundamental to our that the line will go even further than outlined in the commitment to deliver a rebalanced economy between HS2 documents. I will look for any commitment for the regions and London. I will support the Bill tonight. high-speed rail to go beyond the current terminus points for HS2. I would also ask why we have to accept a Mark Lazarowicz: A number of amendments in the 20-year programme for high-speed rail to go from London group deal with the extension of HS2 to Scotland. to York and somewhere near Wigan when other countries Unsurprisingly, I shall concentrate my remarks on the seem to manage to do it much faster than we do. I hope case for the building of HS2 and the benefits it will that that issue can be addressed in the preparations for bring to Scotland and my city of Edinburgh. the scheme over the next few months and years. It is patently clear that the improvement to the railway system that HS2 will deliver will benefit Scotland. At Mr Goodwill: I can confirm that our new Minister, the moment, we suffer from capacity problems further Baroness Kramer, will be in Scotland tomorrow and we south on the rail network. Unless something is done to will no doubt hear more on that subject then. deal with them, as rail demand increases, journey times and railway services to Scotland will be affected. We Mark Lazarowicz: I am grateful for that update, will obviously benefit from the reduction of 45 minutes which has been circulating over the last hour or so as that will be brought about by HS2, and I hope that the information has reached the public domain. I presume further reductions will be achieved in the fullness of that Baroness Kramer will not announce that high-speed time. is coming to Scotland, but I am looking forward to We will also benefit from the way in which HS2 will some positive announcements tomorrow. There is an help to rebalance the economy towards the north of opportunity here for the Scottish Government—of whatever Britain. The development of HS2 will also lead to a colour, as we are obviously talking about a long-term reduction in the pressure for growth in domestic air process—to work with the UK Government. It is recognised travel, which will have other advantages. Extending that it will be possible to do some work on high-speed high-speed rail to the points proposed by HS2 and rail in Scotland, perhaps to link Edinburgh and Glasgow beyond will also improve the business case for high-speed. but also to provide the basis for a route further south. All the evidence suggests that the business case for the Although we cannot immediately have a high-speed improvements further south will be strengthened by route all the way from Edinburgh and Glasgow to extending HS2 to the points currently provided for and London, other sections of high-speed rail would certainly beyond to Scotland as well. benefit the Scottish economy. Just as the business case for high-speed rail further south is strengthened by Andrew Bridgen: The hon. Gentleman is obviously bringing into it business from Scotland, any high-speed very keen on HS2, but can he explain why Lord Prescott rail in Scotland that would bring passengers into the has called the project “the great northern con”? GB-wide high-speed system would be beneficial for the rest of the country. Mark Lazarowicz: I did not hear those comments. I understand why those communities that will not be Front Benchers will put forward the Labour position on served directly by the line, especially those that currently the matter, and I am pleased that this high-speed rail have a good rail service, will be concerned that they project was started under the Labour Government of could lose out as a result of HS2 being constructed. The which Lord Prescott was a member. answer for those communities is to engage as actively as The case for HS2 is overwhelming, and that is why we they can with central Government and neighbouring have seen a wide degree of political consensus across local authorities to try to ensure that they put the case the parties in Scotland and certainly in my city. It is a to get the best benefits. It is also important that connectivity project that has the support of the business community, is examined, the point of the amendment tabled by my the local authority and practically all political parties in hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench. Edinburgh. It is important for the Government, and for Front Benchers of all colours, to use the opportunity of Nic Dakin: In Committee, I became aware of the developing HS2 to rebuild the vision for rail in the overwhelming evidence from both business leaders and country as a whole. HS2 is not just a question of trains local government leaders across the north of England running on the high-speed line and then going no in favour of the Bill. The points that have been made by further; they can serve other destinations in the way my hon. Friend and others underscore that. they will serve Edinburgh and Glasgow. On the continent, high-speed trains do not just run on high-speed lines; Mark Lazarowicz: Interestingly, in Scotland, it is not they serve other communities too. That is something we only those communities and councils that would directly should aim for in Britain. benefit from the high-speed line that are in favour. The case for high-speed developments beyond HS2 is Communities further north recognise that, although powerful. I understand why a Government would not they might not get a direct benefit, it would still be want to start putting down lines on a map to other parts 1153 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1154 of Britain, because that would set off scare stories “that is not included in the contingency. What we would expect to about costs, but the points made by the right hon. include in the contingency are the more minor adjustments in Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) on possible Select Committee to mitigate environmental impact.” development should not be lost or forgotten—the lines Those are the very environmental issues on which we to Scotland and routes to the north-east of England in still do not have a report. particular. There are clear capacity problems between Yorkshire and the north-east of England and they will 3pm need to be on the agenda at some stage. Damian Collins: Does my hon. Friend agree that local I started my comments by referring to the amendments government could also consider some of these issues? on Scotland. The amendments tabled by the right hon. Kent county council is thinking of using money from Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) and the regional growth fund to upgrade the railway connection the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) from the high-speed rail point in Ashford through are superfluous. The Scottish Government have accepted Canterbury to Manston airport. Contributions could the Bill in its current form. The Scottish Parliament has come from other pots of public money besides those passed the relevant Sewel motion endorsing the proposals found centrally by the Department for Transport. in the Bill. I do not always agree with the current Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament, but on Stephen Barclay: Indeed. That brings me to the distorting this occasion if it is good enough for them, it should be effect at the heart of the remarks made by my hon. good enough for this House. I will not support the Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric amendments, as they do not take the debate any further. Ollerenshaw) and the paradox that the scheme will We have good proposals that have achieved broad consensus divert more funding to London. across the House. I hope we can continue to proceed in that fashion. Mr Simon Burns: Will my hon. Friend give way? Stephen Barclay: I will, but before doing so, may I Stephen Barclay: I shall speak to amendment 17 and, thank my right hon. Friend, who, throughout his time in particular, to the costs associated with connectivity. as Minister, was most courteous and responsive? I take On Sunday, it was my daughter’s third birthday. As his intervention with pleasure. the list of presents she was hoping to receive grew ever Mr Burns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I longer, I had to remind her that we did not have a magic hope my intervention does not spoil that record. Is he money tree in the garden. Her response, quick as a taking into account the fact that some of the changes, flash, was to say, “Why don’t you plant one?” When we particularly to phase 1, will actually save money? For look at amendment 17 and consider the remarks at the example, the decision to tunnel around Hanger Lane in beginning of the debate from the Chair of the Transport west London will be cheaper than the original overground Committee, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside proposal, leaving us with money for swings and (Mrs Ellman), we need to reflect on the reality of a roundabouts. budget set at £42.6 billion—this seems to be used interchangeably with the spending envelope, albeit that Stephen Barclay: Of course, there will be some give it appears to have now grown to a £50 billion cap—that and take. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington does not include the changes in design referred to in the South (David Mowat) highlighted the issues involved, powerful speech from the right hon. Member for East but let us consider, for example, the Heathrow spur, on Ham (Stephen Timms). which we have had interventions. If Howard Davies I want to draw hon. Members’ attention to the remarks decides to go with a hub airport at Heathrow—and one that David Prout made to the Public Accounts Committee. would think it logical for HS2 to connect to it—the cost One might have expected the contingency to have of that is not in this budget, and neither is the cost of anticipated changes in design costs. Of the £50 billion the connection in Camden, so the cost of tunnelling cap, £21 billion is currently unspecified. More than and the additional work that is likely to flow are not in £14 billion includes dealing with optimism bias and risk these figures either. I wish, then, to draw the House’s inflation—the initial 10% on that £15 billion figure—and attention to the pressure that is likely to follow from then on top of that there is a further contingency of what Donald Rumsfeld would probably refer to as the more than £4 billion for phase 1. Nowhere do the “known unknowns”, which we know are going to be figures address changes to design, yet many of hon. huge. Members’ remarks have been based on exactly that premise. I predict there will be public campaigns in Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend is listing all the items Camden where people will say, “If we are going to have that are not included but which will add to the price of High Speed 2, let us connect it to High Speed 1 in a far this project. The Government have now indicated their better way.” Dare I say it, but there may be one or two intention to accept the official Opposition’s amendment. well-connected opinion-formers in north London who I have been looking at some paperwork, and I believe will help that campaign. Yet David Prout said: that the cycling lanes in Birmingham, Manchester and “The contingency would not include major changes in scope, Leeds will add up to another £750,000; the light rail for example, that the Select Committee might require. If the construction, if it goes ahead, in Liverpool and Birmingham Select Committee requires an additional station”— will cost about £1.6 billion; and if there is a walking programme for the seven cities, that will cost about as some in Sheffield are hoping for— £750,000. Those projects are all in the infrastructure “that is not included in the contingency. If it required 20 more pipeline, so we are looking at adding between £3 billion miles of tunnelling”— and £4 billion just to provide the connectivity to which as the people of east Cheshire are hoping to secure— the Government have agreed. 1155 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1156
Stephen Barclay: My right hon. Friend makes a valid they travelled to an out-of-town station, they would still point. Inevitably, when large sums are being spent, there need to get into the city centre to complete their door- will be pressure to leverage it, and already the Government to-door journey. have signalled some tipping towards schemes linked to HS2. For example, they have referred to making cities Paul Maynard: This is a good opportunity to remind “HS2 ready”, so it is in the very lexicon they are using. Members that the point of HS2 is to allow people to get to the areas of greatest economic activity, and those are Mrs Spelman: On a point of clarification about not necessarily within five minutes of Euston station. connectivity, local authorities have to take some The benefit of a terminus at Old Oak Common would responsibility as part of their transport plans. The be an ability to transfer quickly to the City, where the Greater Birmingham and Solihull local enterprise bulk of the economic activity takes place. This is the partnership’s top priority is to make a bid to the single clear message from all high-speed rail networks around regeneration pot for light rail connections to Birmingham the world. airport and the interchange station. When Lord Adonis was promoting high-speed rail, and we were not sure Stephen Barclay: Of course there is a debate around about it in the west midlands, the deal was basically that Old Oak Common, but I must point out the lack of we would find the funds to build the station. There is a clarity. Clearing a similar site for the Olympics cost balance between local authority spend and other pots; £1 billion. Where is the figure for clearing and regenerating it should not all come from a single resource. the site around Old Oak Common? Transport for London is putting in requests, stating that it is possible to Stephen Barclay: My right hon. Friend makes a fair leverage HS2 with better connectivity using Old Oak point, but it is not the point that I am seeking to make. Common, and I think it is right to do so, but where is The £35 billion that has been allocated for control that proposal reflected in the figures? period 5, between 2014 and 2019, referred to in paragraph The Chief Secretary to the Treasury made a clear 18 of the Department’s case, does not cover many of statement on “The Andrew Marr Show” on Sunday. He the items on the wish-lists that Members are compiling did not say that the project would be delivered for today. £42 billion; he said that it would be delivered for less. That was the promise he made. Now we are talking Andrew Bridgen: I totally agree with my hon. Friend’s about a cap of £50 billion, so an extra £7 billion has analysis: there will be increased pressure on the HS2 appeared in the space of a few days. In today’s debate, mitigation budget for the route, which will put costs up. Members are adding their own wish-lists, which will I put it to him that the only way in which any Government add further to the costs. will be able to keep a cap on the cost of HS2 will be drastically to cut back on the compensation scheme for Mr Simon Burns: The cost of HS2 is £42.6 billion, householders who are unduly affected by the project. within which there is a contingency fund of £14.4 billion. That would be devastating for my constituents. The figure of £50 billion that my hon. Friend has referred to reflects the addition on top of that of Stephen Barclay: I will come to the direct costs in a £7.1 billion for rolling stock, of which £1.7 billion is the moment, but my hon. Friend makes a valid point. The contingency fund. It is not for the building of the railway. Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors has told me that land prices have gone up by threefold in the past Stephen Barclay: The size and quantum of the decade. Not many households have been compensated contingency points to a lack of detail and of financial so far, but the House of Commons Library informs me discipline in the cost estimates. That is why so much of that 32 homes have been compensated to date—a very it is vague. modest sample—and that the average cost per home has I started my remarks believing that my time was been £500,000. I do not know what the cost will be in unlimited, but having been made aware by one of my north London, but I suspect that London house prices colleagues that my time is more finite than I originally are going up quite quickly. expected, I shall dramatically shorten my speech and finish with reference to two issues. Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): First, on direct costs, reading the business case put I would not wish to compete with my hon. Friend’s forward this week, it is difficult to get a sense of the clear expertise in this matter, but has he considered impact of energy prices on construction. We justified reducing the budget for HS2 by using Old Oak Common the high cost of our nuclear deal last week on the basis as a terminus, thereby avoiding any of the activity in the of rising energy prices, yet we seem to be quoting the Camden area that appears to be causing concern financially? same HS1 energy costs for steel construction for this That would fit with many European models, in which project. Land prices seem vague. Network Rail still has the terminus is situated outside the city centre and a 23% efficiency gap. Is it to be a subcontractor? Are we connected to the high-speed and cross-borough links. going to fix the governance of Network Rail, which is Has my hon. Friend considered that possibility as part still out of the scope of shareholders, of the National of his investigation? Audit Office and of freedom of information requests? Secondly, there seem to be a number of contradictions Stephen Barclay: My hon. Friend is a fellow Lancastrian, with this project. If economic growth is as good as the and he is a great champion for his constituents. Surely passenger forecasts suggest, will it not put pressure on one of the difficulties with opting for out-of-town stations supplier costs for construction, particularly on a project is that it would take people longer to get to where they that will deliver at its peak 40% of construction market needed to be. The clue is in the name: high-speed rail. If work? We need far more transparency on costs. 1157 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1158
Frank Dobson: It may interest the hon. Gentleman to bonus. The Secretary of State shall have power to make rules know that about 220 households in my constituency defining such bonuses, which shall be laid before and approved will need to be re-housed at the expense of HS2. The by resolution of both Houses of Parliament.’. authorities were rather shocked to discover that a one- Amendment 27, page 2, line 2, at end insert bedroom flat in a block recently built in the locality is ‘For the purposes of Barnett formula spending, the network currently going for £482,000. Most of the people who shall be designated an England-only project.’. need to be re-housed need a family-sized flat. Government amendment 25. Amendment 8, in clause 2, page 2, line 15, at end Stephen Barclay: The right hon. Gentleman brings insert— great expertise to these issues. That takes me back to the reference to a blank cheque: my concern is that the ‘(d) the number and value of contracts placed with— House is being asked to exercise blind faith, which will (i) UK companies with fewer than 500 employees, have a hugely distorting effect on transport schemes (ii) UK companies with more than 500 employees, and elsewhere in the country—as pressure grows, for example, (iii) non-UK companies.’. for Crossrail 2 to connect not at Tottenham Court Road, but at Euston. Other schemes in the system, such Amendment 16, page 2, line 15, at end insert— as the one in my area of Cambridgeshire, will be asset- ‘(d) all expenditure in all departments across Government stripped of what they rightly deserve. on matters related to the high speed railway transport network.’. Let me leave the House with the image that we look like someone coming down the platform with five business Government amendment 26. cases, while the train has already left the station and we Amendment 6, page 2, line 24, at end add— are waiting for the announcement of whether we will hit ‘(6) As soon as is reasonably practicable after preparatory our destination, which will be given next year not by the spending ceases the Secretary of State will place before Parliament Government, but by the shadow Chancellor. I do not a final financial report, setting out all spending authorised by this think that is the right way to proceed. We need to be far legislation and including equivalent information to that required more careful with controlling the costs. under subsection (2).’. Amendment 31, page 2, line 24, at end add— Andrew Bridgen claimed to move the closure (Standing ‘(6) Within six months of Royal Assent the Secretary of State Order No. 36). shall present to Parliament an estimate of the expenditure to be Question put forthwith, That the Question be now incurred under section 1 during the period ending on 31 March put. 2015. Question agreed to. (7) On or before 30 September 2015 and on the anniversary thereof in each subsequent year the Secretary of State shall Question put, That the amendment be made. present to Parliament an estimate of the expenditure to be Question accordingly negatived. incurred under section 1 during the year ending 31 March following the date of such presentation.’. Amendment made: 17, page 1, line 12, at end insert ‘as well as with such other parts of the transport network (including roads, footpaths, cycleways, airports and light 3.15 pm railways) as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.’.— Mrs Gillan: I am very glad that we managed to get (Mr Goodwill.) through the preceding group of amendments without a vote. I think it is clear that the Government have not Mrs Gillan: I beg to move amendment 20, page 1, line 12, allowed enough time for proper scrutiny of the Bill, and at end insert— it worries me considerably that a wider audience beyond ‘(2A) Expenditure permitted under this Act and in connection the House will not understand that we reached that with the network (including rolling stock to be used on it) is point. I shall therefore try to speak fairly briefly on this limited to £50 billion.’. group of amendments, although it is one of the most important groups, apart from—if the Government Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this press on with their proposals—the group relating to it will be convenient to discuss the following: compensation, which is of great concern to everyone in Amendment 30 , page 1, line 12 , at end insert— the House. ‘(2A) Expenditure under this Act shall be limited to £5 billion.’. HS2 is a huge financial risk. For some time, people— Amendment 15, page 1, line 13, leave out ‘includes’ including, I believe, the Information Commissioner—have and insert ‘is restricted to’. been pressing for the Government to release the Major Amendment 21, page 2, line 1, at end insert— Projects Authority report in full, but, as far as I am aware, neither that full report on the implications nor ‘(4) No payments in connection with expenditure under this the amber-red report has yet been made available. Certainly Act shall be made to personal service companies, meaning any neither has been made available to my office. body set up for the purposes of allowing an individual or group of individuals to receive payments indirectly, including so as to When I asked the Secretary of State reduce any part of their tax liability. The Secretary of State shall “if he will publish the report from the Audit and Risk Management have power to make rules defining such companies, which shall Committee presented at the board meeting of HS2 Ltd on be laid before and approved by resolution of both Houses of 18 July 2013”, Parliament.’. he replied: Amendment 22, page 2, line 1, at end insert— “The update from the Audit and Risk Management Committee ‘(4) No bonuses shall be paid to any person working on the was given verbally at the meeting. HS2 Ltd does not hold a network or the preparatory work for it, and the expenditure written report.”—[Official Report, 8 October 2013; Vol. 568, authorised under this Act does not extend to the payment of any c. 193W.] 1159 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1160
[Mrs Gillan] We make much of protecting our environment— Members in all parts of the House make much of our In the absence of the transparency that would enable us green credentials—but we should consider what the to read the risk analysis from the Major Projects Authority, reinstatement of our countryside will cost. We should and given the Secretary of State’s response to a request consider the ancient woodlands that have been destroyed, for a regular update on financial risk, it is difficult for us and the work that will be necessary for some time to to assess whether the Government are sticking to their maintain biodiversity, mitigate noise, and offset the loss guns. of some of our amenities. I do not agree that compensation In amendment 20, I have sought to provide the cap will suffer. The Government seem perfectly capable of that everyone is talking about. I had expected Labour paying compensation with or without this Bill. The sum Members to table such an amendment, and I am surprised of compensation paid to date is £52 million, so I think that they did not, because they have made much of the that that is irrelevant to whether this Bill goes through fact that they will not give this project a blank cheque, or not. I worry greatly about that, but the genesis of this and that the expenditure can go only so far and no project is the fact that in March 2010 the cost for the further. Amendment 25—which I think the Government whole route was £30 billion; by February 2011 it had are minded to accept, as two Conservative Members risen to £33 billion; by January 2012 it had risen to have added their names to it—is limited to some financial £33.4 billion; and we are now at £42.6 billion without reporting, and some crystal ball-gazing on the effect the rolling stock being included. that an underspend or an overspend would have. It reminds me rather of “The Merchant of Venice” in Mr Burns: Will my right hon. Friend give way? many ways. I think that the Labour party has bottled out completely and remains sitting on the fence, and Mrs Spelman: Will my right hon. Friend give way? I do not think that people will forgive it for that. Mrs Gillan: I want Members to make their own Steve McCabe: I want the cost to be contained as points, and I am just going to make the points I need to well, but does it not worry the right hon. Lady that if make on my amendments. she presses ahead with her amendment, she will effectively put a cap on transport links to northern cities, in which Mrs Spelman: Will my right hon. Friend give way on none of her side was interested when we were talking this point? about London and south-east developments? Mrs Gillan: Okay. Mrs Gillan: I do not think that that is true at all. I think that what I am doing is giving Members—such Mrs Spelman: I am very grateful to my right hon. as my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford Friend, because I am worried that, given the time, we (Mr Burns)—who claim that the project will come in at may not get to my amendments about biodiversity bang on £42.6 billion, or indeed less, an opportunity to offsetting. I received a letter from the Secretary of State enshrine that in statute. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on 20 October saying DEFRA and Natural England are currently Mr Simon Burns: Will my right hon. Friend give way? working with HS2 “on a proposed methodology for accounting for habitats.” Mrs Gillan: I hope that my right hon. Friend will That is for biodiversity offsetting, showing clearly the forgive me if I do not. funds and methodology needed to offset the loss of green space. I am sure she and I very much want to see that. Mr Burns: On this very point? Mrs Gillan: I am pleased I let my right hon. Friend Mrs Gillan: I would like— make that intervention, because I, too, am worried.
Mr Burns: Please? Go on! Mr Burns: Will my right hon. Friend give way to me, too, please? Mrs Gillan: I would like to make some progress. What worries me particularly, even in the case of this Mrs Gillan: How could I resist my right hon. Friend project, is that it will run out of money. Infrastructure the Member for Chelmsford? projects have a very unfortunate history, both in this country and abroad, and megaprojects— Mr Burns: I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend. May I seek clarification from her because I am very Mr Burns: Will my right hon. Friend give way? concerned? This Bill is authorising the spending of money on the preparation work for building HS2. In Mrs Gillan: I have already said that I will not. one of her amendments, she is trying to limit that Mega-projects of this sort are subject to great risk, spending on the preparatory work to £50 billion, which and almost never fulfil their promise. The passenger seems far more, to the Nth degree, than the Government numbers never equal those that were predicted, and the would ever want to spend on preparatory work. Surely costs always exceed those predicted. What will happen there is something slightly wrong with this amendment. if this Government, or any Government of any complexion, start to run out of money and see the bills going up? Mrs Gillan: I do not think there is anything wrong The contingency reserve may not be enough, and what with this amendment at all. It was a probing amendment, will suffer is what will come at the end of this project. and just as the Government managed to slip their name 1161 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1162 under the official Opposition’s leading name on one the Department was carrying out an assurance process amendment, I hoped that the Opposition might slip at the time to ensure that all those people were compliant their name under mine it contains the cap they wanted. with their tax and national insurance obligations, and Also, if we had had some adjustments to this Bill, it the good news is that the response was that they were—none would have encompassed the spend. If we are going to was not compliant. But on a Government project of have a money Bill, it should not just cover the open-ended this sort, being paid for from the public purse, people preparatory work—now my right hon. Friend is wanting should be paid as civil servants and they should not be to have his cake and eat it—but should cover the money in receipt of bonuses. that is going to be spent on the project. After all, he has Much has been made about bonuses in and around been arguing for—[Interruption.] Well, we know the this House in connection with many other professions. hybrid Bill is coming. It will be a gargantuan monster of MPs do not get a bonus, and neither would I be asking a Bill that will take up more time in this House than any for one as an MP, but I was shocked to find that other Bill has ever done. between 2011 and 2013 people in the Department for Amendment 15 seeks to restrict the preparatory Transport, including people working on HS2 Ltd, have expenditure. I am sure my Front-Bench colleagues will been paid bonuses of more than £3 million between say that these amendments are contradictory, but they them. I admit that many of those bonuses will be small, are probing amendments. I did not serve on the Bill but we should still put our money where our mouth is Committee so this is the opportunity for me to get these and the practice should cease. I also understand that matters discussed. I think we need to restrict the expenditure HS2 Ltd, which was operating bonus schemes, is no to those items that are on the face of the Bill. Currently, longer doing so for its employees. I am pleased about the word “includes” in clause 1(3) means that the Bill is that, because I do not think we can say one thing in one the blank cheque to which I referred earlier. I think area of government and practise a different set of that, in the Bill’s current form, there is no restriction. I procedures in another. am sure the Government will not accept any restriction, but they would have been in a much better place if they Stephen Barclay: When my right hon. Friend tabled had done so. that parliamentary question, did she get clarification of I shall move on now, as I know many other Members whether any of those on personal service contracts were want to speak. There are colleagues who are not in ex-staff of the Department for Transport and whether the House today but whom I have consulted in they had received any pay-off from the Department? Buckinghamshire. The Attorney-General, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield Mrs Gillan: No, I did not, but that is the sort of fine (Mr Grieve), knows his residents at Denham are wholly detail of the finance that we will need to look at, as it opposed to this proposal, and I know that the Minister should be examined. One thing I have been trying to for Europe, my right hon. Friend the Member for have a look at is Mr Higgins’s new employment contract, Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), is continuing to work tirelessly which I understand does not start until January. I have within Government to put to the most senior Ministers been denied sight of that, but I wanted to see what the arguments and interests of his constituency. He has performance bonuses, or any other inducement or asked me to point out today that there are serious performance-related measure, it contained. mitigation issues both in Wendover and Aylesbury that are still not resolved, yet the Department’s current Amendment 27, tabled by the—[Interruption.] Forgive plans make no adequate provision either for the measures me, a year is a long time, and I cannot recall the to reduce noise or for fair compensation. I am also constituency. concerned for Mr Speaker, whose constituents in Buckingham continue to express overwhelming opposition. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) This money Bill writes a blank cheque for the (PC): Carmarthen East and Dinefwr. Government, or it purports to write a blank cheque and give the Government a fig leaf to cover their embarrassment Mrs Gillan: As a former Secretary of State for Wales, about the hundreds of millions they have already spent I am particularly concerned—[Laughter.] You can’t and the £1 billion they will spend by the time we reach know everything, can you, Madam Deputy Speaker? the next election. I was, however, hoping that we could I do apologise. regularise some of the terms and conditions of the As a former Welsh Secretary, I am concerned that people working on this project, which is the aim of this railway, currently planned only to be in England, amendments 21 and 22. needs also to make sure that it bears the costs of Amendment 21 deals with payments made through “Barnettising” that expenditure, particularly for Wales, service companies. I do not know how many people in but also for Scotland, if the railway does not go there, this House pay close attention to this matter, but there and for Northern Ireland. That is particularly the case has certainly been a lot of fuss about service companies, in the light of the PLANET Long Distance model— particularly in connection with the BBC and others. PLD—zone information in the KPMG report, which When I asked a fairly innocuous parliamentary question, showed that places like Neath, Port Talbot and Newport I was surprised to find out that in the past 12 months completely miss out. I am sure the hon. Member for HS2 Ltd has engaged 48 people paid through personal Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) shares service companies. Apparently, eight of those people my sadness that there are no Welsh Members on the have either left the company or transferred to the payroll, Opposition Benches to plead the case for Wales. I am and a further 12 will have left or transferred by 31 December. rather disappointed that they are not here because it That means that there will still be many people who are shows that they are not interested in pressing the case paid through personal service companies. Apparently, for Wales. 1163 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1164
Andrew Bridgen: Does my right hon. Friend have any overwhelmingly an argument for reducing the capacity estimate of the cost of Barnettisation on this project of the railways north-south and for slowing up the lines. and what that would add to the total cost of HS2? It is simple nonsense.
Mrs Gillan rose— Andrew Bridgen: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Before the right hon. Lady resumes her comments, may Mr Straw: I will in a moment, but I am conscious that I gently remind her that she has been speaking for some others want to get in before the knife. 16 minutes? The knife comes down at 4 o’clock and I come to the issue of the costs. No one is in favour of there are many other Members who would like to speak providing blank cheques for schemes, but I have seen no on this group of amendments, so I hope she might be evidence that a blank cheque is being provided for this coming to a conclusion. scheme. What we are talking about is £42 billion until 2033, which works out at just over £2 billion a year. That Mrs Gillan: Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am. is a lot of money but, in the grand scheme of things, Finally, on my amendment 16, I say, “Mark my including infrastructure investment, it is not huge, words:” The cost to the taxpayer, the council tax payer particularly when compared with the massive amount and other Departments will rise and rise. The costs in of money that has rightly been put in by successive Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool just of promoting Governments to improve infrastructure in London and the project show that there is public money going into the south-east. I would be happy to support that, but it the project which is not being accounted for, particularly is time that the investment went elsewhere. in the Bill. Will the Minister include and publish the costs that Frank Dobson: Does my right hon. Friend feel that have been incurred and will be incurred on a regular some people might be a bit suspicious that a contingency basis in other Departments, such as the Department for sum of £14 billion closely resembles a blank cheque? Communities and Local Government, the Department of Energy and Climate Change, the Department for Mr Straw: Not in the least. I was just about to come Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Treasury? on to the central issue of the level of contingency, and If we do not get to see those costs, the Government will when I do so I shall explain why that is the case, but be concealing the real cost of HS2, which should be before I do, however, I will give way to the hon. Member taken into consideration. for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen).
Andrew Bridgen: The right hon. Gentleman is obviously 3.30 pm an advocate of HS2, and that can be his view, but will Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I shall speak he explain the discrepancy between his view and that of particularly to amendment 25, which has the support the noble Lord Mandelson, who was also a member of my Front Bench and, I am pleased to say, of the of the previous Labour Government? Government as well. I was a member of the Cabinet in 2009 which first gave formal approval to HS2. That was Mr Straw: I have certainly never wished to speak for endorsed in the run-up to the general election by all-party my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Mandelson. All I agreement. Although I have taken a close interest can report as a matter of fact is that my right hon. and in the project ever since, I have seen nothing in the noble Friend was in the same Cabinet Room in 2009 intervening period to persuade me to withdraw my when the project was endorsed. If he has had some support for it. reverse damascene conversion, it is for him to explain The case is clear. First, thanks to a dramatic increase that, not me. in the usage of the railways in the past 15 years—I am Let me turn to the issue of costs. I was chairman of very proud of Labour’s record—we face a situation the Cabinet Committee on the Olympics for its first four where, for both freight and passengers, the existing lines years. The first bid was put in at about £2.5 billion and cannot cope. As someone who for years has had to the ultimate cost came out at £9 billion. Let me explain endure the west coast main line, I have to say that large why there is no direct comparison. The bid was not sums of money were spent during that period—one of based on the contingency but on a prayer that we would the reasons why there was so little electrification—on win it. Not a huge amount of effort was put into costing patch and mend to that line and on quadrupling the line it because, frankly, very few people ever thought we in the Trent valley, with very little overall benefit. If folk would win. It was only after we had won on 6 July 2005 in the House and outside think there is an alternative that the serious work began and led, quite properly, by to HS2, they are right that there is, but it is a worse the Treasury, we considered the contingencies. alternative, with more disruption and greater cost. I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn The second reason why I strongly support HS2 is that and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) that a contingency of it will help to rebalance our economies. I have listened such a size is sensible, because there needs to be an to some fancy arguments in the House, but among the optimism bias. That was what was put into the budget fanciest are those that I have heard today and from for the Olympics by the man who is now Sir David colleagues in the Tea Room—that if we put in this Higgins, who turned that project around. Contrary to investment, it will somehow suck more economic activity what was said by the right hon. Member for Chesham into London. It is worth turning that argument on its and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), the Olympics as an head or, as the Treasury likes to say, looking at the infrastructure project came in not only on time, because counterfactual. If that were the case, it would be it had to, but on budget. Those who are worried about a 1165 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1166 blank cheque—any Chancellor or shadow Chancellor £2 billion a year, of which the optimism bias contingency needs to be—should be reassured that Sir David Higgins reserve is about £700 million. In my judgment, such is now in charge. I have every confidence in him, not things are manageable. only from his time running this operation and the Olympics, but from his time at Network Rail. He got Charlie Elphicke rose— costs down and took a close interest in the detail of the projects. Mr Straw: I must make some progress. Of course I understand the concerns of Members on Frank Dobson: Can my right hon. Friend confirm both sides of the House about their constituencies. that Sir David Higgins spent all the contingency sum on Were I in their position, I would probably be voicing the Olympics? similar concerns. However, when the grand motorway schemes were being built across the country, including Mr Straw: Not quite, I think. There were reasons for in the Chilterns—the M40 goes right through them—there that, however, and for the contingencies. These are very was no parliamentary process of this kind at all. There large projects. There were also contingencies for Crossrail, were no private Bills; there were private inquiries and for Thameslink and for the expansion of Euston in compulsory purchase orders, and on it went. Of course 1968 and I do not recall Members who would have there was an argument about the exact route the M40 benefited directly from those projects raising issues would take when it went through the escarpment out of about contingencies at the time. the Chilterns and around Oxfordshire, but I do not recall any Member from Buckinghamshire standing up Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): The in the House recently to say that building it was a right hon. Gentleman and I worked with David Higgins disaster, that the effect on biodiversity was terrible and on the improvements to the Blackburn-Manchester rail that we should return the land to the way it was. line, which serves both our constituencies. Given the Had there been a parliamentary process for the M40, right hon. Gentleman’s experience with that project, the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham does he regret the fact that a long-term view, which we can bet her life that such would have been the opposition found we needed, is not being taken by those on his own in the Chilterns—I understand exactly why, because we Front Bench, who seem to be holding a question mark are all concerned about our own back gardens, including over the future of HS2? me—that it would never have been built. However, that road, at far greater disruption to the area than any Mr Straw: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right railway will ever cause, has brought benefits to her that he and I have had direct experience of dealing with constituency and county. While she continues to pursue Sir David Higgins on a micro-level as well as a macro-level, her constituency concerns, I hope that she also recognises and very impressive he is too. I do not criticise anybody that there is a national interest in rebalancing our who either holds or might hold the purse strings for economy and ensuring that people in the north can get wanting to ensure that we bear down on costs, but those to the south more quickly. on my Front Bench and the whole of the parliamentary Labour party, as has been made clear, support the Mrs Gillan: My concern is not only about my project and the Bill. That is why, if a Division is called constituency, but about how we use taxpayers’ money. I at 5 o’clock, we will be in the Lobby with the Government am as keen as the right hon. Gentleman to rebalance in support of the Third Reading of the Bill. Let me the economy between the north and the south; I just do make that clear. We started this project and I hope very not think that HS2 is the way to do it. The M40 has of much that the Labour party is in a position to ensure course brought benefits, but that does not mean that the that we finish it. damage that will be done to the environment by yet another breach of the area of outstanding natural beauty can be brushed aside, although it is quite obvious Steve McCabe: Does my right hon. Friend agree that that he thinks that the suffering of my constituents and it might help those who want to support the project and their businesses is a price worth paying. perhaps make it easier for the softer opponents if the contingency figure was reduced? At a third of the Mr Straw: My last point is this: far from being projected total cost, it seems remarkably high, and it brushed aside, the environmental concerns are being might risk inflating the project’s costs. taken into account in far greater measure than was ever the case with the motorway schemes. I hope that the Bill Mr Straw: I know about optimism bias contingency goes through this afternoon so that we can then see an costs because I faced exactly the same situation when I all-party consensus behind the project and introduce chaired the Cabinet Committee for the Olympics. My the hybrid Bill, if possible before the general election. initial reaction was the same as that of my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn 3.45 pm and St Pancras: “Why on earth are we building in a contingency reserve on this scale?” I got the Treasury The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport officials in and cross-examined them—I bumped into (Stephen Hammond): It is great pleasure to see you in one the other day who remembers it—but in the end I your place, Madam Deputy Speaker, and a great pleasure was convinced that what was proposed was prudent, to and honour to follow the right hon. Member for Blackburn use an adjective that used to be owned by the Labour (Mr Straw). party, and still is. Contingency reserves of that size are These amendments deal with expenditure, reporting sensible and realistic. Yes, the cost is £42 billion, but and costs. The Government have set out in a strategic that is over 20 years, so we are looking at a cost of about plan the spending plans for High Speed 2, which are 1167 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1168
[Stephen Hammond] there is cross-party support for amendments 25 and 26, and I hope that the whole House will be able to support £21.4 billion for phase 1 and £21.2 billion for phase 2 them. —a total cost of £42.6 billion, including £14.4 of contingency. I am convinced that, as the right hon. Mr Chope: Will my hon. Friend turn his mind to Gentleman pointed out, that is likely to decline as the amendment 30, which seeks to limit the amount of date of construction nears. HS2 Ltd has set out a target expenditure on preparatory works to £5 billion—a pretty cost for phase one of £17.16 billion. substantial sum, but obviously not as large as £50 billion? The original purpose of the reporting duty on the Will the Government undertake not to spend more than Government was to give Parliament an opportunity to £5 billion on preparatory works? scrutinise the manner in which we were spending the preparatory expenditure and to get a sense of how we Stephen Hammond: I might be prepared to consider were making progress on the project. Amendment 25 is that. However, my hon. Friend needs to be absolutely very much in the spirit of that objective. I am happy to clear that this is about the preparatory works on phases provide the commitment that the Government will ensure 1 and 2 as opposed to preparatory works for the whole that the reporting duty makes information on underspends scheme were it to go further and create a network. His and overspends explicit. amendment does not cover that, and that is why it is Managing costs is at the heart of how the Government unnecessary. intend to manage this project. Mr Simon Burns: As I understand it, this Bill relates Mr Cash: Will my hon. Friend make a commitment not only to phases 1 and 2 of current high-speed rail that, in line with amendment 20, the amount of money projects, but to phases 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 of such projects at to be spent will be limited to £50 billion and no more? any time in the next 40 to 60 years. How could the Government of today restrict the amount of money Stephen Hammond: If I were to do that, as my right available without knowing the value of money in 40 hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) years’ time? has pointed out, I would be making a commitment of £50 billion on the preparatory expenditure. I do not Stephen Hammond: My right hon. Friend is completely intend that we spend anything like £50 billion on that. correct. This Bill is about the preparatory expenditure. As my right hon. Friend said in response to my right It is also about not only phases 1 and 2, but the whole hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham network as it may be conceived in the future. It would, (Mrs Gillan), this Bill is about the preparatory expenditure. therefore, be completely erroneous to restrict ourselves to a limit on preparatory costs, because we do not know Mr Simon Burns: There seems to be utter confusion the future extent of any network. That is also why I about this. The cost of the project is £42.6 billion, with agreed with my right hon. Friend a moment ago that £7.1 billion for the rolling stock, but the Bill is about the amendment 20 is unnecessary. preparatory work. It is preposterous to grant, in legislation, I know that the intention of my right hon. Friend the the Government of the day £50 billion to spend on Member for Chesham and Amersham was to put a limit preparatory work. on expenditure and I understand why she wanted to do that, but the amendment does not explicitly address Stephen Hammond: I thank my right hon. Friend preparatory expenditure, which is what this Bill is about. for that intervention. He is absolutely correct in his I note that she said it was a probing amendment. understanding; of course he would be, as he has so skilfully managed the Bill so far. Mrs Gillan: The Minister knows exactly what my intention was with my amendments. I will not press any Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Will my of them to a vote, but what is worrying about the Bill is hon. Friend give way? that it is not restricted in any way, shape or form. It is totally open-ended, as my right hon. Friend the Member Stephen Hammond: I am going to make some progress for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) has just admitted, and this because I think that my hon. Friend is going to refer House has no control or say over what moneys will be to amendment 20. If he waits for a moment I will deal spent on the preparation, and on the HS2 project itself. with that. That is what I object to and that is where I think the We have always made it clear that HS2 will provide a Government have failed. significant opportunity for vocational skills across the lifetime of the project, giving a real boost to British Stephen Hammond: It is rare that I disagree with my industry. This Government are committed to raising right hon. Friend, but in this case I do. What this Bill skill levels and creating an environment for small and does is explicitly place reporting obligations on the medium-sized enterprises to succeed. Amendment 26 Government for the preparatory work. Moreover, it is would place an obligation on the Government to report the hybrid Bill, which my right hon. Friend has mentioned, on their progress in delivering those opportunities and that will provide the opportunity to scrutinise all stages to demonstrate what we mean when we say that HS2 is and costs. an engine for growth. I have always been convinced, as We have created the reporting duty precisely to ensure have many Members across the House, that we will be that Parliament can scrutinise the expenditure and see able to do that. HS2 is a generational scheme, and as that we are spending it responsibly. Planned expenditure such we need to make sure we have the right home-grown on design works for the financial year 2013-14 is about talent that allows us to deliver it. I am delighted that £2.5 million, and for 2014-15 it is about £9.2 million. 1169 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1170
There are a number of other amendments in this that he received at Network Rail and that he has guaranteed group and I know that other Members want to get in. I that he will not accept any bonuses. I hope that that sympathise with the spirit of amendment 8, but it does satisfies her. not clarify the exact level that most people recognise as I hope that the House will support amendments 25 the number of people employed by small and medium-sized and 26. enterprises. Moreover, it would restrict a small or medium- sized enterprise that had fewer employees, but that Lilian Greenwood: I am pleased to speak in support hoped to secure a high-value contract that would result of amendment 25, which represents a significant in many UK jobs. The amendment goes beyond the strengthening of the financial reporting requirements in direct nature of the contract. clause 2. Taxpayers need to know that the costs are being Mr Chope: In commenting on the other amendments controlled. Under this Government, the budget for HS2 in this group, could the Minister address his remarks to has swelled from £773 million to at least £900 million in amendment 31 and explain why the Government are this Parliament. The botched design for Euston pushed not prepared to accept it? the cost of that station from £1.2 billion to £1.6 billion, even though some of the features of the design were downgraded. The Government announced in June that, Stephen Hammond: On amendment 31 and the with a sizeable increase in contingency funding, the transparency of the project, I do not believe it is necessary headline budget for the project had increased by to produce six-monthly reports of spending estimates in £10 billion to £50.1 billion. addition to the annual reports to which we have already committed. Given what my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham has said, I am sure my Charlie Elphicke: Will the hon. Lady give way? hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) would not want us to waste money or create bureaucracy Lilian Greenwood: I am afraid that I am very short of just to produce six-monthly reports. Such a requirement time. would be onerous on the Government. That headline budget includes the costs of construction and procuring rolling stock. That is reflected in amendment 25, which I believe is superior to amendment 20, which Mr Chope: My amendment does not require reporting has been proposed by the right hon. Member for Chesham after the event, which is what the Bill says; it requires a and Amersham (Mrs Gillan). budget to be set in advance, on an annual basis. Why cannot the Government accept that? In short, Ministers have failed to keep the costs under control. The rising budget for HS2 has damaged the public perception of the project. It is therefore vital Stephen Hammond: The Government accept that we that, under the incoming leadership of Sir David Higgins, need to come to the House to explain our actions and financial discipline is imposed. The use of the project’s report on our preparatory expenditure. As has been £14.4 billion contingency fund must be minimised wherever discussed extensively this afternoon, the initial target possible. Ministers must ensure that Sir David Higgins cost for phase 1 is £17.16 billion. has their full backing in that task. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amendment 25 is designed to ensure that that happens. Amersham has tabled amendments on the monitoring It will introduce a powerful mechanism to ensure that of tax avoidance and the payment of bonuses to those there is financial responsibility.It will force the Government who work on High Speed 2. We must manage the costs, to announce any overspend of the yearly budget. It will but we must balance that with ensuring that the staff also provide an incentive to identify areas in which costs reward arrangements attract the right talent. We need can be reduced, as was successfully done on the Crossrail to ensure that those who work in the public sector project. demonstrate the highest standards of integrity and meet their tax obligations. Jonathan Edwards: Will the hon. Lady give way? Following the review of the tax arrangements of public sector appointees last year by the Chief Secretary Lilian Greenwood: I will not give way at the moment. to the Treasury, all Departments and agencies have a Given that the Government have produced annual duty to seek assurances about the tax arrangements of budgets for the project up to 2020-21, it makes sense to their long-term specialists and contractors to ensure measure progress against that yardstick. that they are paying the right amount of tax. The Government are committed to tackling all forms of tax Mr Cash: On a point of order, Madam Deputy avoidance and have taken a wide range of measures to Speaker. close tax loopholes. It is essential that we guard against the payment of Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): We will bonuses that are not in line with the Government’s goal hear the point of order after 4 o’clock. of reducing the public sector remuneration package. However, we must ensure that we have the right reward Lilian Greenwood: The Government’s hopelessly structure in place. We must not put provisions in legislation ambitious timetable to pass the hybrid Bill for phase 1 that would tie the hands of the whole supply chain. I by the middle of 2015 makes it even more important am happy to confirm to my right hon. Friend the that we introduce stringent reporting standards. Even Member for Chesham and Amersham that Sir David Ministers acknowledge that that plan is challenging, Higgins will move to High Speed 2 on the same salary and that is putting it mildly. It appears to be certain that 1171 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1172
[Lilian Greenwood] 4.2 pm Mr McLoughlin: I beg to move, That the Bill be now spending will continue under the authority of the read the Third time. preparation Bill beyond the general election. If it does, there must be proper reporting requirements in place. In Let me begin by thanking all Members who served on fact, we submitted a similar amendment in Committee, the Public Bill Committee. In particular I thank my and I am sorry it was deemed unnecessary at the time. I right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), am glad the Government have been persuaded to think not only for his work on the Bill, but also for the hard again and have accepted our amendment. It will make work that he put into the Department for Transport for a tougher Bill that makes Ministers accountable for during his time there. It was a great pleasure to work bearing down on costs, and it will deliver better value with him. for public investment. For a project as important as this, everyone should have their say—indeed, it sometimes feels as if they do. At the same time, however, we need to move the debate Point of Order forward, which is what the Bill does. This is the point at which the debate starts moving from “if “ to “when”. Mr Cash: On a point of order, Madam Deputy The House has already voted overwhelmingly in favour Speaker. We have not reached the last group of of the principle of a new high-speed, high-capacity rail amendments, which are vital to all the people in my network. I hope it will do so again this evening because constituency and throughout the country who are affected the decisions we take today will benefit our country for by the Bill. This point of order is about the travesty of decades to come. proceedings in relation to the programme motion and Just this week, with the storms that hit the south and all that goes with it. east, we have seen how crucial our railways are to national life. When trains are crowded and disrupted, Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): The life for hard-working people gets more difficult. That is hon. Gentleman, as ever, makes his point, but as he why the new north-south line is not some expensive and the House know, that is not a point of order. The luxury. timetabling of discussions on this Bill is a matter for the House. Mr Cash: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
4pm Mr McLoughlin: I will, but I do so reluctantly because Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 26 June 2013). of the number of hon. Members who want to take part The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already in Third Reading. proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the amendment be made. Mr Cash: I understand why the Secretary of State is Amendment 20 negatived. reluctant to give way. Throughout the whole of this land, people are deeply disturbed by the manner in The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions which the Bill is being rammed through. Furthermore, necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded as he well knows, the arrangements he has described as at that time (Standing Order No. 83E). benefits are not accepted by my constituents and many other people, nor by the many reports emanating from the Public Accounts Committee and others that Clause 2 demonstrate that HS2 is not a straightforward benefit, and is in fact quite the opposite. FINANCIAL REPORTS Amendments made: 25, page 2, line 12, at end insert— Mr McLoughlin: I know my hon. Friend is not in favour of the new line—he loses no time in telling me ‘( ) the extent to which expenditure incurred under section 1 during that year represents an overspend or underspend as that. I dare say that similar comments were made in against the budget for such expenditure for the year; debates on railways in the House over the centuries. The truth is that the line will be the first line built north of ( ) the likely effect of any such overspend or underspend on a total budget of £50.1 billion in 2011 prices (which includes London in 120 years. I understand the concerns of hon. construction and the price of rolling stock).’. Members whose constituencies the line goes through. I do not dismiss them and have never done so. I want to Amendment 26, page 2, line 15, at end insert— ensure that we have a fair compensation scheme in ‘( ) Each report must also contain an account of the vocational place. I believe that the scheme is, without any doubt, qualifications gained during the financial year by individuals right for the future of the UK. employed by persons appointed under an enactment to carry out activities in connection with preparing for, and constructing, the I find it rather ridiculous that I can go from London network referred to in subsection (2).’.—(Stephen Hammond.) to Paris on a high-speed train, and that my hon. Friend can go from London to Brussels on a high-speed train—I Jonathan Edwards: I beg to move amendment 27. know he keeps a close eye on what goes on there—but we cannot go from London to Birmingham, Manchester Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): The or Leeds on a high-speed train. The time has come for a hon. Gentleman indicates that he wishes to move an steep uplift in our transport system. amendment that has not been spoken to, and I cannot I should tell my hon. Friend that there is still a long take his amendment. way to go. We must take the hybrid Bill through the Third Reading Commons. There will be plenty of opportunities to 1173 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1174 debate it in detail. As the right hon. Member for Blackburn if we tried to create the capacity we needed by upgrading (Mr Straw) said, HS2 will be debated in far more detail the three current main north-south lines, we would face than roads that now go through various constituencies 14 years of weekend closures. That is not an alternative when they probably caused greater environmental damage. to the new line, it is disruption on a nightmare scale. We are already investing record sums in the existing Andrew Bridgen: Will my right hon. Friend give way? railway. Network Rail will spend £38.3 billion in its next five-year control period, and the Government have a Mr McLoughlin: I do not want to take too long £73 billion budget for wider transport investment over because I know many hon. Members want to speak. I the next Parliament. Despite all that, we will still need will give way—for the last time—to my hon. Friend. new rail capacity. If one accepts that—and that we need room to grow—there is no choice about how to provide Andrew Bridgen: I thank my right hon. Friend for it. As the strategic case makes clear, a new high-speed giving way. It is true that this is a high-speed debate. north-south line is not just the right way, it is the only Does he agree that an hour is completely insufficient way. parliamentary time for a Third Reading debate on the The new north-south line will be the backbone of largest infrastructure project the country has ever seen? Britain. It will have 18 trains an hour, each carrying up to 1,100 passengers, transforming the available space on Mr McLoughlin: My hon. Friend has taken part in inter-city lines. As long-distance services transfer to the the Third Reading of many Bills—they have always new line, capacity will be released on the existing network. been hour-long debates. In fact, it is only recently that Of course, not every city across Britain will benefit in we have had debates on Third Reading. Back in the the same way, but Network Rail estimates that more days when the right hon. Member for Blackburn was than 100 cities and towns could benefit from released Leader of the House, we sometimes did not have debates capacity. It would mean significantly more commuter on Third Reading because we simply did not have the services, better connectivity and more routes for rail time. The Government are trying to help everybody we freight, taking lorries off our most congested roads. can—[Interruption.] I do not want to get any more partisan now that I have the right hon. Gentleman on We know that HS2 is the best answer to our transport side. problems, but as with any large infrastructure scheme, we also know we will face opposition. I respect the fact The Bill is about helping communities and businesses, that some people are concerned about the impact on the and helping the cities of the north and the midlands to places they live, and I respect those with serious proposals compete on equal terms with London. Nobody begrudges for improvements. Already, the environmental impact the money we are spending on Crossrail or Thameslink. of the new line has been vastly reduced thanks to such They are huge investments in our capital city, but it is improvements. But I also respect what Sir John Armitt time we looked at what is happening in the rest of the said in his recent report on infrastructure—that big country. schemes need “broad political consensus” as well as Three important words—room for growth—sum up “resolution” from political leaders. why the project is so important. They are at the core of HS2 must be a national project with support across the strategic case we published on Tuesday. The responses the parties, or in the end it will be nothing. Labour to the report show the crucial message of growth. The leaders in our great cities across the north and the British Chambers of Commerce states: midlands know that HS2 is right. To those who say that “This report bolsters the economic case for HS2…HS2 is the there is no blank cheque, I say that there never has been only scheme that can transform capacity on Britain’s overstretched and there never will be. I know that hon. Members want railways.” costs controlled. Here are the facts. The target price for The CBI has thrown its considerable weight behind the the first phase is £17.16 billion. That is the price for project. It did so because the new line is part of the construction agreed with HS2 Ltd. For the whole Y-route, answer to the infrastructure deficit that faces our country. the agreed budget is £42.6 billion, including a contingency The leaders of our great cities back HS2. Sir Richard of £14.4 billion, which we are determined to bear down Leese, leader of Manchester city council, has said: on. Sir David Higgins—the man who built the Olympics “It’s straightforward and simple. We need more capacity and on time and on budget—will make sure that happens. the only way is through this new network.” As the new chairman of HS2, he will bring his penetrating Since 2008, the country has learned some tough eye and expertise to the task to get the best value for our lessons, but we must make ourselves more resilient and country. competitive as an economy. That will not happen if we As the strategic case published this week shows, our do not take the long-term decisions on investment and updated benefit-cost ratio has fallen slightly from 2.5 to stick to them. Our society is changing, our population 2.3. We have been open about that, but it means that the is growing, people are travelling more, and demand for business case for the new north-south line is still strong, inter-city rail travel has doubled in the past 15 years and with more than £2 returned for every £1 invested—about will continue to increase. the same as Crossrail and Thameslink, and nobody As I have said all along, I welcome suggestions for seems to doubt those projects. In fact, the ratio for HS2 creating more capacity, but the so-called alternative could increase to 4.5 if rail demand continues to rise suggestions from the critics simply do not add up. We until 2049. have looked at the case for building new motorways and It is still important to recognise that the benefit-cost dramatically expanding domestic aviation. Neither does ratio cannot take account of unpredictable factors. the job. Some people believe we can carry on squeezing That was true of the Jubilee line extension in London, more room out of our current railways, patching up our for instance, which did not include the 100,000 jobs problems. The work we published this week shows that, it now supports at Canary Wharf. It was true for 1175 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1176
[Mr McLoughlin] the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) for piloting the Bill through Committee in a co-operative High Speed 1, which did not include benefits from manner. Following in her footsteps, I am proud to redevelopment at King’s Cross and St Pancras. When I support High Speed 2, and I am proud to support first became a Member of Parliament, King’s Cross and getting good value for public money, too. St Pancras were places where people did not want to We support plans for a new north-south rail line, but spend any time if they could possibly get away with it. we are clear that the Government must get a grip on the They would try to turn up just before their train was costs. High Speed 2 was the brainchild of Lord Adonis, due to leave. Those stations are now destinations in the Labour Government’s last Transport Secretary. We their own right. People go there and look with amazement understand that the railway is not needed just to tackle at what has happened to the UK’s railway system. the rail capacity crunch that we face in the next ten years: managed properly, HS2 has the power to transform Frank Dobson: I represent not just St Pancras, but the economic geography of our country. It will build Euston and King’s Cross. Does the Secretary of State our great cities and bring them closer together. It will accept that virtually all the people in my constituency connect people to each other, to work and to leisure. It who are now opposed to HS2 were strongly in favour— will help to rebalance the economy, creating and using indeed, the first advocates—of the transformation of our country’s manufacturing skills. St Pancras and the improvements at King’s Cross?
Mr McLoughlin: Of course I do. I am more than Charlie Elphicke: This is an important project requiring happy to meet the right hon. Gentleman to discuss national consensus. It needs all parties to support HS2 the particular issue of Euston station, because the if it is to go ahead—no ifs, no buts. Will the Labour redevelopment will bring specific problems. But we party support this project properly: yes or no? must also ensure that we get the very best deal for his constituents in the redevelopment of Euston station. I Mary Creagh: If the hon. Gentleman had listened, he am meeting the leader of Camden council next week, would know that I just said we will support HS2. We although I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman shall be voting in favour of it this evening. will be there. I do not discount the concerns of local This is the first new north-south railway for more residents about the work on major infrastructure projects, than 100 years, but Labour’s brainchild has, sadly, been and we have to take them into account. neglected by the Government. Instead of gestation, we have had stagnation. The project has been put at risk by Jonathan Edwards: Last week it was disclosed that delays, project mismanagement and, in July, by a huge the Treasury had made a mistake and awarded Barnett increase to the budget. consequentials to Wales in the 2015-16 spending round. First, on delays, Ministers looked at strategic alternatives Subsequently, the Treasury said it would claw the money to High Speed 2. That took until November 2011, back in the next spending review and that it did not set a which wasted 18 months and led to slippage in the precedent. Will the Secretary of State confirm that project timetable, with Ministers now playing catch-up. there will not be a clawback, that the precedent has now Costs in this Parliament have risen from £700 million to been set and that Wales will have the consequentials? £900 million. The National Audit Office has warned Unless he does so, we will vote against him on Third that this tighter time scale poses risks to the project: Reading. “Faster preparation for the bill may increase the extent of petitions to Parliament which may make it less likely that royal Mr McLoughlin: It would be a brave Secretary of assent is granted by the planned date of May 2015.” State who started second-guessing the Treasury, and I Another delay is that the consultation on phase 2 of will not do that now. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s the route has only just been launched for the Y part of representations and will bear them in mind. the network, despite the fact that it was being worked I will briefly explain the next steps. We intend to on when we were in power three years ago. Ministers submit the hybrid Bill before Christmas. In February, have been trundling along; it is time for more urgency. the growth taskforce reports. I know the challenges Secondly, on project mismanagement, the Government’s ahead, but also the opportunities. We are not here to early cost-benefit reports were criticised in May this patch up our railway once again, only to spend far more year by the National Audit Office for failing to make later when it turns out that we should have invested the strategic case for the new railway. I welcome that properly at the start. It will take determination to that has now been published in full. In September, the strengthen our country. I urge this house to support the Public Accounts Committee warned that Ministers’ Bill. It is our chance to get ahead and to invest in our plans to present the hybrid Bill to Parliament before long-term prosperity. Christmas were “ambitious” and “unrealistic”. I would be interested to hear from the Secretary of State whether 4.15 pm that is still his plan. Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): I welcome the Under- Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Andrew Bridgen: Will the hon. Lady confirm, as he Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), to his new has stated in the media, that the shadow Chancellor will role, and I look forward to working with him. I pay have the final say over whether Labour supports HS2? tribute to my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), for her work Mary Creagh: The shadow Chancellor has never said in holding no fewer than four Transport Secretaries to that in the media. In fact, he has told the media that it account, and for her tireless work to develop Labour’s will be a collective decision, so I do not know where the transport policy. I pay tribute, too, to my hon. Friend hon. Gentleman has got that from. 1177 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1178
Finally, this summer the contingency budget ballooned travel continues to grow, despite the tough economic to £14.4 billion, now one third of the railway’s cost. Our times, and our support for a north-south line rests on concern is that putting in such a large contingency at tackling that capacity problem and supporting 21st century such an early stage of the project could be a self-fulfilling transport infrastructure. This week’s strategic case shows prophecy, a point made by my hon. Friend the Member the intense pressure our major mainline stations are for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe). We are under, and not just in the south. In four years, there will living in austere times. Our constituents are facing the be 200 people for every 100 train seats arriving into largest cost of living crisis for a generation. Prices have Birmingham New Street at 5 o’clock. Rail freight is risen faster than wages for 39 of the 40 months of this growing at 3% a year, and HS2 would free up space for Government, and working people are, on average, more more freight trains on the east coast, west coast and than £1,500 a year worse off. In these circumstances, midland main lines, and take those lorries off our roads. and given the public finances, it was right for my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor to call the Government Kelvin Hopkins: As I said in my speech, if we want a to account for their mismanagement of the project, serious transfer of freight on to rail, we must make it which has led to this ballooning of costs. That is the possible to transport lorries on trains, but we cannot do right thing to do, because public consent for this great that on the existing network because the gauge is not project depends on people like the shadow Chancellor big enough. We need a dedicated freight network for having the courage to stand up against sloppy, incompetent that to happen. and bureaucratic government. It is we, the Opposition, who are the true friends of HS2 and this Government Mary Creagh: I am not sure whether my hon. Friend who have put it at risk. We will continue our scrutiny of is proposing that we build an entirely new freight network— these costs and our discipline on the public finances. Kelvin Hopkins indicated assent. Mr Betts: My hon. Friend rightly draws attention to Mary Creagh: Okay, well perhaps we will park that the problem of delay. Certainly in Sheffield, we are thought for another day, because many others want to particularly concerned about the delay between completing come in. My hon. Friend is absolutely right, though, phases 1 and 2. Now that the welcome appointment of that we have to shift freight from the roads and on to Sir David Higgins has been announced, should not one the more environmentally friendly railways, and we of his jobs be to consider how we can build the second want ensure that this line can do that. We want HS2 to phase more quickly? Perhaps we could start building in give people a real choice between short-haul aeroplanes the north as we start building in the south. and the more environmentally friendly trains. We want to see more inter-city services for cities that currently Mary Creagh: Again, that is for Sir David Higgins to have a poor service to London. We want HS2 to free work out with Ministers, but undoubtedly that could the west coast, east coast and midland main lines for keep costs down and allow further benefits to be realised. new commuter services between the midlands and the north. Mr Godsiff: Is there a figure above which the Opposition These are not just transport arguments. They are Front-Bench team would not support this project, if the social and economic arguments about the sort of country incompetence to which she refers is played out by the we want to be: a country in which no town or city is left Government? Is there a figure at which the Labour behind. We want to ensure that cities such as Wakefield, party would pull out? which currently enjoys a twice-hourly inter-city service to London, are not downgraded. I obviously have a Mary Creagh: I do not know whether my hon. Friend particular interest in Wakefield’s twice-hourly service to was here when this was discussed, but we tabled an London, which I am happy to declare. amendment on Report that was agreed by the Government The public consultation on compensation arrangements and which makes it clear that any contingency spend is important, and the Government need to ensure that must be reported to the House annually. they respond fully to specific local issues such as those We will continue to hold up the weaknesses of the raised by the right hon. Member for Chesham and management of HS2 until every one of them has been Amersham (Mrs Gillan), and that proper compensation addressed. We want to see swift progress with the hybrid is given to residents who are affected or blighted, such Bill and we shall scrutinise the latest strategic case, as those in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the published this week, to satisfy ourselves that it is based Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). on sound assumptions. The Government must drive We will maintain pressure on the Government to work down those contingency costs and have a clear strategy closely with the communities affected. for doing so. This fiscally disciplined scrutiny is what We will vote today in favour of this paving Bill to one would expect from any credible official Opposition allow preparatory expenditure on the scheme. We believe seeing a Government desperately mismanaging a project. that how we build something is as important as what we We will go ahead with the project, but the Government build. This is not just a transport project; it is also a must bring down the costs, and the benefits to the social and economic project. I am glad that the cities nation must be clear. We say: get a grip on the project, are already looking at how they can invest in skills so get control of the budget and get it back on track. that local people can benefit from the employment The increase in rail usage during our time in government opportunities that HS2 will bring. We are pleased that was a record to be proud of, but we now face serious the Government have agreed to our amendments on challenges. We understand that current and future capacity vocational training audits for the scheme. That will help constraints on the existing rail network place a brake on us to realise our Labour vision of creating 35,000 regional and city growth. We know that demand for rail high-quality apprenticeships over the lifetime of the 1179 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1180
[Mary Creagh] has plenty of spare capacity on its recently extended runway. It hopes, of course, to relieve some of the project, representing a step change in vocational education pressure on London and the south-east. With the for this country’s young people. HS2 is not just a interchange station being approximately 38 minutes transport project; it is also an employment project. from Euston, it is obviously competitive in terms of We are glad that the Government have accepted our journey time with some of the London airports. This amendments on annual reports to Parliament on had led my local authority to see the potential of this contingency spending to ensure that the scheme is kept transport hub, designating it as “UK Central”. HS2 is on budget, and on linking the railway with active travel central to that vision. such as cycling and walking. Having said that, I will not To fulfil that vision, I hope that the Department will make any promises about cycling the new cycle path be able to look at the design stage of the new junctions that will run alongside the track. After cycling from required on the M42, as it serves Birmingham airport, London to Brighton, I think I know my limits. We will the present station and the National Exhibition Centre. also continue to scrutinise Ministers to ensure that they We need help with that. It would be worth giving work closely with UK companies to use procurement to consideration, too, to the development of the surface deliver the maximum jobs, growth and skills for UK area and perhaps take another look at providing a companies, small and large. tunnel—I would very much like to see that—where HS2 High Speed 2 is a huge project which, if managed crosses over the existing west coast main line. properly, will bring great social, economic and I believe that the extra time the Government have environmental benefits to this country. The project is given for this Bill has allowed important improvements about how we deliver capacity for more passengers and and mitigations. The draft environmental statement services, and connectivity to bring cities closer together, was indeed a draft—one on which we could consult our while ensuring that the trains run on time. We will serve constituents and seek to secure improvements. I am sure our great cities by having HS2 come in with a budget that my constituents and those of many other Members that is under control and with benefits that are clear for appreciate the value of that. all to see. The Secretary of State that he should do his Unfortunately, we did not reach my amendments job and I will do mine, and my job is to ensure that he today. They would have improved the terms of the does his job properly. compensation for all affected constituents and enshrined High Speed 2 is a project that is in the national in statute a property bond. I am pleased that the interest. It has suffered from the fiscal and project Government are consulting on a property bond, and we management incompetence of this Government, and I have every hope that that will be brought to fruition. hope that this Secretary of State will get it back on track. Britain deserves better than this. It will fall to the Mrs Gillan: I support my right hon. Friend in her next Labour government, a one-nation Government, to search for a property bond. As she knows, my constituent build HS2—on time, on budget and in the national Hilary Wharf, the railway economist, has done a great interest. deal of work on the property bond issue, and believes 4.27 pm this will be a much fairer way of compensating all those Mrs Spelman: I should like to congratulate the Under- people whose lives and properties will be damaged by Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the this project. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), on his new appointment and thank him for taking up Mrs Spelman: I agree with my right hon. Friend and I the baton on the Bill on Report. That was not an easy urge all Members whose constituencies are affected by task. He was preceded by an excellent Minister, my HS2 to make sure that their constituents respond to the right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), consultation that is under way; the Government remain who did a very good job in Committee. I really enjoyed open-minded about the eligibility criteria, which is the spirit of co-operation between both sides in Committee, important. I indicated in an intervention that there is an and the latitude that the right hon. Member for Holborn important need to offset the impact on biodiversity. I and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) and I were given to know that the present Secretary of State for Environment, table amendments that have genuinely improved the Food and Rural Affairs is working with HS2 to make Bill. sure that no net loss of biodiversity arises from the Anyone who will have High Speed 2 going through infrastructure. their constituency is having a difficult time. Those who For the west midlands, HS2 is a lifeline. We should will have an interchange station will have what I have not overlook the fact that, at a time when west midlands described as the pain and the gain. The quality of the manufacturing is undergoing a renaissance for the first local connectivity can tip the balance between pain and time in my generation, there is no capacity for transporting gain in those areas, and I am delighted that an amendment manufacturing products on our railways. Anyone has been accepted on a cross-party basis to improve driving down the M40 will see transporter load after local connectivity. That will make a big difference to the transporter load of cars going for export. We export constituencies that will have those stations. It will provide 82% of all the cars we produce, and 50% of them go to for local road, rail, cycle and pedestrian connections to other EU countries. They should be able to be transported the new interchange stations. by rail. The freight aspect of HS2 is thus incredibly The Birmingham interchange station will offer a rare important. opportunity to improve the already integrated international Finally, in view of the completion date, this project is airport and its main line station, through a connection principally going to benefit our children and our children’s with high-speed rail. Seeing the potential for that, the children. I would like us to be the generation with the airport has proposed a second runway, even though it foresight to provide for them. 1181 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1182
4.33 pm restaurants are getting a bit past it, and the restaurant is thinking of replacing them, but there is no point in Frank Dobson: I am going to be the original parochial investing in that replacement. Let me say this to both MP. For many people in my constituency, this issue is Front Benches: do they seriously think it right to go not a question of “not in my back yard”, but one of ahead with this project and damage those little, ordinary “not through my front room”. A total of 220 homes citizens? will be destroyed and a further 1,000 homes will be blighted for the 10 years while the works go on at I raised this matter in the Committee, which took Euston. A large number of small businesses will be evidence from witnesses. When the problems in Drummond bankrupted because of what is going on there. street were brought to the distinguished attention of the man who is the director general of the HS2 project at When it comes to getting compensation, both the the Department for Transport, he gave his considered qualifications and the quantum for compensation in opinion of the Drummond street traders, saying Greater London, and most particularly at Euston and in Camden Town, are much worse and far inferior to “Their business will develop. We hope that businesses in Drummond street will benefit from the construction workers on the HS2 site.” what will apply in rural areas. I hope that some people ––[Official Report, High Speed Rail (Preparation) Public Bill in the House of Lords will see fit to help Ministers keep Committee, 11 July 2013; c. 154, Q292.] the promises they made about being fair to everybody Does he seriously think that some construction worker, in terms of compensation. There can be no justification knackered and stopping for his snack break, will walk a for saying that the noise is less in Euston than in Great mile to and from Drummond street to get food? No is Missenden. Noise is noise, dirt is dirt, filth is filth. The the answer to that, but what is worse, had this great main difference is that in Euston all that will go on for person inquired of the traders in Drummond street, 10 years, whereas on most other parts of the line it will they would have confirmed to him that a major construction go on for only a short period. site nearby had supplied them with no single remembered HS2 Ltd, and the HS2 apologists, say “Oh, it will not user during their lunch breaks. This, I have to say, is be as bad as Frank Dobson says.” Well, if the trouble someone who works for the outfit which has been will not be as bad as Frank Dobson says, why cannot promoting HS2 until now. those at HS2 come up with full, decent compensation? As I have said to the Secretary of State and his The main reason is that they know that it is going to be predecessors, if I was in favour of this hare-brained terrible and that proper compensation would cost a lot scheme, I would get rid of a lot of the people involved, of money, but why should people living in my area because in my constituency alone their original estimate experience dreadful blight for a decade or more while a of the costs has proved to be £1 billion less than their national project goes through? Why should they be revised costs. That is £800 million extra at Euston and sacrificed on the altar of that national project? £125 million for running the works across Camden It has been suggested that buildings in the area will town, where, apparently, the cost went up from £170-odd act as buffers against noise. The people who live in million to £300 million because they had not realised Mornington terrace, the people who live in Ampthill they would need to widen the track. If that reflects the square, the people who live in Park Village East, the quality of thought and advice, I say to those people people who live in Eversholt street, the people who live who are in favour of this scheme, “Watch it, because it’s in the Regent’s Park estate, the people who overlook a mess, and even the great man who, at the Olympics, the railway now and the people who will overlook the did manage to spend the contingency fund is going to railway when the “buffer” blocks of flats have been have difficulty sorting it out.” demolished—all those people face 10 years of noise and I therefore have to say that I believe it will be necessary filth and disruption, and we are proposing that they for the House of Lords to try to look after and properly should not receive the same level of compensation as compensate the people I try to represent. At the last people living in Great Missenden. That cannot be fair, general election I made two promises. I promised I and it cannot be decent. would try to stop HS2 happening and, failing that—this I think that nearly everyone in the House wants to was a twin-track approach, if people will excuse the support and help small businesses. Drummond street, expression—I said I would try to make sure all their in my constituency, is full of small businesses with very interests were looked after. I have great belief in the hard-working owners and staff, providing restaurants integrity of the current Secretary of State, and if he is and cafés and shops. It is on the west side of Euston going to discharge his promise to look after people station. The shopkeepers and restaurateurs have conducted properly and treat them fairly, he will have to deal surveys, and have found that between 40% and 70% of properly with the people I have been trying to represent. their trade is passing trade—people who are going to or from Euston to catch a train, the tube or a bus. 4.42 pm It is currently proposed that about a third of Drummond street will be demolished—which does not include any Sir John Randall: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I of the shops—that a huge fence will be built around the take this opportunity to welcome you to the Chair for construction site for 10 years, and that there will no the first time when I have been speaking? longer be any access to the west side of Euston station I am very sorry that on Report time did not allow us from Drummond street. Anyone trying to get from the to address all the various matters I hoped we were going shops and restaurants into the station will have a quarter- to talk about, especially with regard to compensation of-a-mile wander around the boundaries of the site. and mitigation. I am equally sorry that I was otherwise That means bankruptcy for the small businesses there occupied on Second Reading so I was not able to speak which will lose their trade. Those businesses are already then. I would just say to my former captors, who held being damaged and blighted. The kitchens of one of the me hostage for the last 13 years, that I hope that when 1183 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1184
[Sir John Randall] The system of high-speed rail in Japan—the Shinkansen —covers 1,500 miles. The first high-speed rail started we come to the Second Reading of the hybrid Bill we there in 1964, and Japan is on its eighth generation of will have plenty of time—several days—because this is high-speed train. The average delay on these trains is a hugely important issue. 36 seconds. I want a bit of that for the UK. Many issues of huge concern to many of my constituents and to even more of my fellow residents in the London 4.47 pm borough of Hillingdon have not been solved by what we have heard today. The right hon. Member for Holborn Mrs Gillan: May I, too, welcome you to the Chair, and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) mentioned the property Madam Deputy Speaker, as this is the first time I have bond not being extended outside rural areas, and that is spoken with you in that position, and offer many a matter of real concern to us. However, my constituents congratulations? I will be brief, because I have spoken can rest assured that I will be raising those concerns at length before. I still think that HS2 is an expensive inside the Chamber, outside the Chamber, and in any toy. I remember that we once had something else that way I can. I and the other two Members of Parliament went fast—it was called Concorde, and we know what for Hillingdon—we like to be regarded as the three happened to that. [Interruption.] It is still not flying musketeers, “one for all, and all for one”—will be raising these days, and it lost out to the jumbo jet. these issues. The Government have introduced this Bill, but it has Voting for this Bill tonight does not mean I will be not really moved this House or our knowledge of HS2 giving a green light to the whole project. There is still much further on. The Bill writes a blank cheque for some way to go for me to be persuaded that the pros the Government to spend as much as they want on the outweigh the cons, and I shall be looking at things very preparation of any of our railway works throughout the seriously. But one thing I would say is that if there is one country, in perpetuity. The Government really introduced person in this Chamber who can persuade me of that, it the Bill because they have lost control of the public is the Secretary of State. relations on this project and they have lost control of the costs. I cannot even remember how many times we 4.44 pm have read about the Department for Transport carrying Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): Sedgefield has a particular out a “fightback” on this project. place in the history of railways, as it was in a place in No one is very impressed that four and a half years Sedgefield, Heighington crossing, that Locomotion No.1 down the line a project that is supposed to be so worthy was assembled by George Stephenson in 1825, on its is still in the position it is in: the business case has route to Darlington to open up the Darlington and worsened; the capacity claims have not been backed up Stockton railway. It was said at the time that such was in this Chamber today by any facts; the speed has now the velocity that in some parts the speed was frequently dropped away and is no longer the prime reason; and 12 mph, but it still took 65 minutes to travel the eight the connectivity is poor, as we have seen. Of course, all and a half miles to Darlington from Heighington crossing. of us would agree with some of the aims and objectives, Obviously we have come on a long way since then, but including mending the north-south divide, as has been there is still a long way to go, which is why I support discussed. We would all like those aims to be achieved, the Bill. but I do not think that HS2 will do that. I wish to talk a little about supply chains and how I am sorry that we did not have more time to discuss this project will have an impact on jobs. Hitachi is compensation, but compensation consultation is still opening a factory in my constituency which is going to going on and I hope that the Government will have a build the intercity express programme trains, and the property bond. Secretary of State is coming to the constituency tomorrow to celebrate the start of construction there. That is just one example of what impact this will have on factories Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I am in areas that, in the first instance, are not affected by grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way on the high-speed rail, because the route will not be going point about compensation. Although it is important through the north-east initially. We are talking about that the Bill be given a Third Reading tonight, because 730 jobs, with 3,000 to 5,000 jobs in the supply chain. many of my constituents would otherwise be left in We also have a new university technology college opening. limbo, it must be placed on the record that the project Hitachi and other companies in Newton Aycliffe are in cannot go ahead if a property bond is not put in place negotiations with Sunderland university to open the to defend people not just now, but in future. Even if the UTC. It will create a plethora of people who are interested project is dropped, they still need that property bond. in engineering, electronics and all the other kinds of apprenticeships that we require to continue the work Mrs Gillan: I hear that, and many people would agree and the factory going forward. In addition, the research with my hon. Friend. and development facility for trains for Hitachi will be I am sad that the Bill is coming up for Third Reading based in Newton Aycliffe. without our having had longer to debate it. I, sadly, will We should not forget that Hitachi built the bullet be going through the Lobby to vote against it. I do not train in Japan, so if Hitachi is lucky enough to win the think any help or support should be given to the project. contract, it will have the technology to build the trains Many people around the country share my view. Simon in this country. These trains would not be imported; Walker, director general of the Institute of Directors, they could be built in this country. That would mean said recently: 3,200 permanent jobs, not necessarily at Newton Aycliffe, “We agree with the need for key infrastructure spending, but around the country, and jobs to maintain the trains but...Itistime for the Government to look at a thousand as well. The capacity for the supply chain is fantastic. smaller projects instead of . . . one grand folly.” 1185 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1186
Richard Wellings of the Institute of Economic Affairs wasted because it had to be given away to AEG for said: nothing. That is what happens when we go in for a “This lossmaking project fails the commercial test, while standard vanity project without proper costings. cost-benefit analysis shows it to be extremely poor value for Secondly, if this is a such a great bargain for the money.” taxpayer and for this country, why is it not being I could go on. Even the Adam Smith Institute says that financed by private capital or foreign sovereign wealth HS2 is a disaster. funds? The Government are no great lover of public enterprise. Indeed, they are doing their best to pass the Andrew Bridgen: Does my right hon. Friend agree very successful franchise on the east coast line back into that if there were a genuine business case for HS2 the private ownership. That is their position, fine, but why is Government would not have to put £50 billion-plus private capital not coming into this project? Why are of taxpayers’ money into it, and the chief executive of foreign sovereign wealth funds not coming in? The Legal and General, which has announced a £15 billion Government are quite happy to have a new generation fund for UK infrastructure, would not say that he does of nuclear reactors built by a state-owned Chinese not want one penny of that money spent on HS2? company that is answerable to the Chinese politburo, Mrs Gillan: I am grateful for the support for the quotes yet this project needs to be paid for with public money. I that I cited. suspect the reason is quite simple: private capital will not touch it with a bargepole, because those involved As the Secretary of State well knows, we have an know that it cannot be done within the figures that have outstanding meeting on compensation. I know he has been talked about. It will go massively over budget and tried to fulfil that and I hope we can get together on they are not going to pick up the bill. compensation, because my constituents are so badly affected. I asked my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) whether there was a pull-out I hope HS2 does not go ahead. The new love-in figure for this project. She declined to give me a figure, between those on the two Front Benches does not fool and I understand that, but if there is no figure to all me much. I am pretty sure Labour will play politics with intents and purposes we are signing a blank cheque. If the project right up to the wire, but if it does go ahead, we go along with the Government and costs escalate—she we must make sure that we have the best protection for made a very good point about degrees of incompetence— our environment and our countryside, and the best what will the pull-out figure be? What will happen if we compensation for people whose lives, businesses and get half the line built and all of a sudden the figure communities will be rent asunder by the project. Nothing shoots up to nearly £100 billion? What will we do then? less will do. Just continue? 4.52 pm I have a great deal of time for the Secretary of State and in many ways he is in a hole. As an ex-miner, Mr Godsiff: I spoke and voted against the Bill on however, he ought to know perfectly well that when Second Reading, and I regret to say that nothing I have someone is in a hole, they should stop digging. My heard subsequently has convinced me that I should not strong advice to him is that he should stop digging. He vote against it again today. After Second Reading, the does not want to end up with a white elephant. argument put forward by the Government began to unravel and people came out stating different positions 4.57 pm from those that they had taken before. First, the Department for Transport upped the figures Alec Shelbrooke: HS2 is a very important project for to £42 billion. Then a previous Chancellor of the Exchequer the city of Leeds. The benefits it will bring to the north said that the cost could go to £80 billion and he was of England are immense, but they cannot be built on withdrawing his support. Then Lord Mandelson said the back of hard-working people who have invested that he attended the Cabinet meeting—presumably the their livelihoods in their houses and so on. It is therefore same one as my right hon. Friend the Member for vital that, before we sign the Bill off next spring, proper Blackburn (Mr Straw) attended—where the project was compensation is in place in the form of property bonds, dreamed up as a big idea on the back of an envelope and that the suggestions on rerouting, which are not without proper analysis or costings. You pays your about “not in my back yard” but propose sensible money and you takes your choice as to what you want alternatives to ensure that the route follows existing to believe, but I do not think that is the way we should transport corridors or goes through open countryside, undertake such a project. are dealt with. With the best will in the world, we cannot mitigate the effects of such a development just There are two points that I wish to make. First, the 30 metres from the back of someone’s house. Government say, not unreasonably, that to go ahead with such a big infrastructure project, they need the I was a supporter of this project before I came to this support of the main Opposition party. That is perfectly House, but I cannot support it if the compensation reasonable, but I have been there before, as have many package is not right. I urge the Secretary of State to Members in the House. I remember when Michael ensure that it is right before the subject returns to the Heseltine was making preparations for the millennium. House in the spring. He went to the Labour party and said, “Look, I can’t build a millennium dome unless you commit yourselves 4.58 pm to it.” We committed ourselves to it, and what happened? Mrs Ellman: High Speed 2 is essential national Well, there was a good party for the great and the good infrastructure, and we are at a critical part of the on new year’s eve, then attendances at the dome dwindled, process. The concerns raised in today’s debate are very we could not give it away, and eventually we ended up important, and many of them were raised by the Transport with £600 million of taxpayers’ money being totally Committee two years ago. Some of them have been 1187 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill31 OCTOBER 2013 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 1188
[Mrs Ellman] Coffey, Dr Thérèse Green, rh Damian Collins, Damian Greening, rh Justine addressed, but some need to be looked at further. It is Colvile, Oliver Greenwood, Lilian now the responsibility of the Secretary of State, working Cox, Mr Geoffrey Griffiths, Andrew with High Speed 2, to ensure that they are dealt with. Crabb, Stephen Gummer, Ben The concerns relate to the environment, value for money Crausby, Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam Creagh, Mary Hague, rh Mr William and ensuring maximum economic benefit, including Crockart, Mike Halfon, Robert giving opportunities during construction for employment Crouch, Tracey Hames, Duncan and apprenticeships across the country. The project is Cruddas, Jon Hamilton, Mr David essential, but it must benefit the maximum number of Cryer, John Hammond, rh Mr Philip people, and that is the Secretary of State’s responsibility Dakin, Nic Hammond, Stephen as we reach this very important juncture. Davey, rh Mr Edward Hancock, Mr Mike David, Wayne Hands, Greg 4.59 pm Davies, David T. C. Hanson, rh Mr David (Monmouth) Harper, Mr Mark Mark Pawsey: Being given the opportunity to speak Davies, Geraint Harrington, Richard now feels like winning the lottery, Madam Deputy de Bois, Nick Harris, Rebecca Speaker. Dinenage, Caroline Hart, Simon I will make one quick point on the impact on my Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan constituents in Rugby. We currently benefit from a fast Dobbin, Jim Hayes, rh Mr John and frequent service on the west coast main line, so with Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Heald, Oliver Virgin Trains we can be in London in 50 minutes and Dorries, Nadine Hemming, John Doyle, Gemma Henderson, Gordon with London Midland we can be there in just under an Doyle-Price, Jackie Hendry, Charles hour. That is attractive to businesses coming to Rugby, Duddridge, James Herbert, rh Nick which we can present as a great location. My fear is Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hilling, Julie that, if the Bill goes ahead and the money is given to Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hinds, Damian build High Speed 2, the legacy line will become a Dunne, Mr Philip Hoban, Mr Mark stopping line, with trains stopping at every station as Eagle, Ms Angela Hollingbery, George the operator seeks to maximise revenues, because the Eagle, Maria Hopkins, Kris city-to-city business will have been lost— Ellis, Michael Horwood, Martin Ellison, Jane Hosie, Stewart 5pm Ellman, Mrs Louise Howarth, rh Mr George Ellwood, Mr Tobias Howarth, Sir Gerald Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 26 June). Elphicke, Charlie Howell, John The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already Esterson, Bill Hughes, rh Simon proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), Eustice, George Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy That the Bill be now read the Third time. Evans, Graham Hunter, Mark Evans, Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian The House divided: Ayes 350, Noes 34. Evans, Mr Nigel Jackson, Glenda Division No. 117] [5 pm Evennett, Mr David Jackson, Mr Stewart Fabricant, Michael James, Margot Fallon, rh Michael Jamieson, Cathy AYES Farron, Tim Javid, Sajid Abrahams, Debbie Blears, rh Hazel Featherstone, Lynne Johnson, Diana Aldous, Peter Blunt, Mr Crispin Foster, rh Mr Don Johnson, Joseph Alexander, rh Danny Boles, Nick Fovargue, Yvonne Jones, Andrew Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Bottomley, Sir Peter Fox,rhDrLiam Jones, rh Mr David Alexander, Heidi Bradley, Karen Francois, rh Mr Mark Jones, Graham Andrew, Stuart Brady, Mr Graham Freeman, George Jones, Mr Marcus Austin, Ian Brake, rh Tom Freer, Mike Jones, Susan Elan Bacon, Mr Richard Bray, Angie Fullbrook, Lorraine Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Bain, Mr William Brazier, Mr Julian Fuller, Richard Kawczynski, Daniel Baker, Norman Brine, Steve Gale, Sir Roger Keeley, Barbara Baldry, Sir Tony Brokenshire, James Gardiner, Barry Kirby, Simon Baldwin, Harriett Buckland, Mr Robert Garnier, Sir Edward Knight, rh Sir Greg Barker, rh Gregory Burden, Richard Garnier, Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Barwell, Gavin Burley, Mr Aidan Gauke, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Bellingham, Mr Henry Burns, rh Mr Simon George, Andrew Latham, Pauline Benn, rh Hilary Burrowes, Mr David Gibb, Mr Nick Laws, rh Mr David Benyon, Richard Burt, Alistair Gilbert, Stephen Lazarowicz, Mark Beresford, Sir Paul Cairns, Alun Glen, John Lee, Jessica Berger, Luciana Carmichael, Neil Glindon, Mrs Mary Leech, Mr John Berry, Jake Carswell, Mr Douglas Goggins, rh Paul Leslie, Charlotte Betts, Mr Clive Chishti, Rehman Goldsmith, Zac Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Bingham, Andrew Clappison, Mr James Goodwill, Mr Robert Lewis, Brandon Binley, Mr Brian Clark, rh Greg Gove, rh Michael Lewis, Mr Ivan Birtwistle, Gordon Clark, Katy Graham, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Blackman, Bob Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Grant, Mrs Helen Lloyd, Stephen Blackman-Woods, Roberta Clegg, rh Mr Nick Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack Blackwood, Nicola Coffey, Ann Greatrex, Tom Lord, Jonathan 1189 High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill 31 OCTOBER 2013 1190
Lucas, Ian Robertson, John Wilson, Phil Yeo, Mr Tim Luff, Peter Rogerson, Dan Wilson, Mr Rob Young, rh Sir George Lumley, Karen Ruane, Chris Winnick, Mr David Zahawi, Nadhim Macleod, Mary Rudd, Amber Wishart, Pete Tellers for the Ayes: MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Rutley, David Wollaston, Dr Sarah Mark Lancaster and Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sandys, Laura Wright, Simon Jenny Willott Malhotra, Seema Sawford, Andy Marsden, Mr Gordon Scott, Mr Lee Maude, rh Mr Francis Selous, Andrew NOES May, rh Mrs Theresa Shapps, rh Grant Baker, Steve Jackson, Mr Stewart Maynard, Paul Sharma, Alok Baron, Mr John Kelly, Chris McCabe, Steve Sharma, Mr Virendra Bridgen, Andrew Lefroy, Jeremy McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, Alec Byles, Dan Lewis, Dr Julian McGovern, Jim Shuker, Gavin Cash, Mr William Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Simmonds, Mark Chope, Mr Christopher Lucas, Caroline McVey, Esther Simpson, Mr Keith Corbyn, Jeremy McDonnell, John Meale, Sir Alan Skidmore, Chris Cunningham, Mr Jim Nuttall, Mr David Menzies, Mark Slaughter, Mr Andy Davies, Philip Pawsey, Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Angela Davis, rh Mr David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Miller, rh Maria Smith, Miss Chloe Dobson, rh Frank Sheerman, Mr Barry Mills, Nigel Smith, Henry Dorries, Nadine Skinner, Mr Dennis Milton, Anne Smith, Julian Edwards, Jonathan White, Chris Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Smith, Sir Robert Engel, Natascha Wiggin, Bill Moore, rh Michael Soubry, Anna Fitzpatrick, Jim Williams, Hywel Mordaunt, Penny Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Morgan, Nicky Spencer, Mr Mark Godsiff, Mr Roger Tellers for the Noes: Morris, Anne Marie Stephenson, Andrew Hoey, Kate Mrs Anne Main and Morris, David Stevenson, John Hollobone, Mr Philip Kelvin Hopkins Morris, James Stewart, Iain Mosley, Stephen Stewart, Rory Mowat, David Straw, rh Mr Jack Question accordingly agreed to. Mulholland, Greg Streeter, Mr Gary Bill read the Third time and passed. Mundell, rh David Stride, Mel Munt, Tessa Stringer, Graham Business without Debate Murray, Sheryll Stuart, Mr Graham Murrison, Dr Andrew Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Nandy, Lisa Sturdy, Julian POLITICAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM Neill, Robert Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Ordered, Newmark, Mr Brooks Swinson, Jo Newton, Sarah Swire, rh Mr Hugo That Andrew Griffiths, Tristram Hunt, Mrs Eleanor Laing Nokes, Caroline Syms, Mr Robert and Stephen Williams be discharged from the Political and Offord, Dr Matthew Teather, Sarah Constitutional Reform Committee and Mr Jeremy Browne, Tracey Crouch and Mark Durkan be added.—(Mr Lansley.) Ollerenshaw, Eric Thomas, Mr Gareth Onwurah, Chi Thornton, Mike Opperman, Guy Thurso, John PETITIONS Osborne, rh Mr George Timms, rh Stephen Owen, Albert Timpson, Mr Edward Proposed closure of Skerton Community High School Parish, Neil Tomlinson, Justin (Lancaster) Patel, Priti Tredinnick, David Penning, Mike Truss, Elizabeth Penrose, John Umunna, Mr Chuka 5.14 pm Percy, Andrew Vaizey, Mr Edward Perry, Claire Vara, Mr Shailesh David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I Phillips, Stephen Vickers, Martin am extremely proud to present this petition on behalf of Pickles, rh Mr Eric Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa nearly 3,500 members of staff, students and parents of Poulter, Dr Daniel Walker, Mr Charles Skerton community high school and the wider community Powell, Lucy Walker, Mr Robin of Skerton. I am also proud to be wearing the school Prisk, Mr Mark Wallace, Mr Ben tie. I am pleased that a group of students, led by a Pugh, John Ward, Mr David parent, Robyn Holtham, are in the Public Gallery to see Raab, Mr Dominic Watkinson, Dame Angela the petition presented. Randall, rh Sir John Webb, Steve The petitioners started their campaign in September, Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Weir, Mr Mike when they were told that their school faced closure by Reckless, Mark Wharton, James the county council. Skerton community high school has Reed, Mr Steve Wheeler, Heather fantastic pastoral care and all the students are immensely Rees-Mogg, Jacob Whiteford, Dr Eilidh happy there. I therefore urge the House to support the Reevell, Simon Whitehead, Dr Alan Reid, Mr Alan Whittingdale, Mr John community of Skerton and the children and parents of Reynolds, Jonathan Willetts, rh Mr David Skerton community high school in their fight to keep Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Williams, Mr Mark the school open. Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Williams, Roger The petition states: Robertson, Angus Williams, Stephen The Petition of pupils, parents and staff of Skerton Community Robertson, rh Hugh Williamson, Gavin High School and others in the Skerton community, 1191 Business without Debate 31 OCTOBER 2013 1192
[David Morris] Academy Status
Declares that the Petitioners believe that Skerton Community Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House High School provides excellent pastoral care and caters for a high do now adjourn.—(Karen Bradley.) number of special needs students and thus the Petitioners do not believe that it should be closed. 5.17 pm The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take steps to support the school in its John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): I applied bid to remain open. for an Adjournment debate on academy schools because And the Petitioners remain, etc. Snaresbrook primary school in my constituency was [P001256] told some time ago that it was likely to become an academy. It is clear that the parents, governors, teachers, Rural Fair Share Campaign staff and surrounding community are opposed to that. The ward councillors, all three of whom are Conservatives, 5.15 pm are also against it. The campaign is supported, impressively, by the hon. Member for Ilford North (Mr Scott) and by Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I am proud, pleased Redbridge council, which again is a Conservative local and humbled to present a petition on behalf of more authority.By the way, Redbridge has invested a considerable than 1,000 constituents in St Ives, in particular Peter amount in the school and has improved its fabric under Greenough of Bluebell cottage in Godolphin Cross. very difficult circumstances over the past few months. Some 200 people signed the petition in manuscript form and more than 850 did so through an online petition. Snaresbrook has a very good history by any objective judgment and was always well regarded. Suddenly, in The petition is part of the Rural Fair Share campaign. June, it received a bad Ofsted report and was put into I congratulate the hon. Member for Beverley and special measures. That took everybody by surprise. Holderness (Mr Stuart), who has spearheaded the Under a new head, Carel Buxton, the school has shown campaign. He and a number of other hon. Members clear signs of improvement and it is clear to everybody will be presenting petitions in support of the campaign in the community that, in the long term, it will re-establish on Monday. As I cannot be there, I am presenting this its reputation as a good primary school. petition tonight. Cornwall is one of the poorest regions in the UK and it receives unfair levels of funding. I was therefore surprised to receive a letter a couple of weeks ago from Lord Nash, the Parliamentary Under- The petition states: Secretary of State for Education, saying that, regardless The Petition of the residents of St Ives, of anything else, the school was to become an academy. Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local Government Only this week, the hon. Member for Ilford North Finance Settlement is unfair to rural communities; notes that the received an e-mail from the Department for Education Rural Penalty sees urban areas receive 50% more support per saying that the school would not become an academy, head than rural areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the 2013–14 but would remain as a maintained school. That was settlement for six years until 2020. extremely welcome news. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural Penalty in staged steps Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Does the hon. by at least 10% by 2020. Gentleman agree that we must congratulate the parents And the Petitioners remain, etc. and, as he rightly said, London borough of Redbridge council? We must also congratulate the hon. Gentleman [P001264] himself, and everyone else involved—that probably includes me. We should thank the Department for Education, the Minister of State, and the Secretary of State for ensuring that Snaresbrook primary school is given the opportunity to continue the good work it has done in recent months.
John Cryer: I have no hesitation in agreeing with the hon. Gentleman about that, and I was about to praise him for his work in supporting the campaign for the school to remain a maintained school. A number of children from his constituency are at the school and we have worked together successfully on a number of issues in our area, of which this is the latest. I have no hesitation in praising Redbridge council for doing an excellent job. As I said, it has managed to invest £110,000 in the fabric of the school. That is pretty unusual given the scarcity of resources at the moment, yet the council managed it, and the local councillors deserve praise as well. I also thank the Department for Education. There are, however, issues relating to the processes that lead to academisation—to use a fairly modern sort of phrase. Before I raise those with the Minister, let me make it clear that I am not making a party political argument. I was not a fan of academies when the 1193 Academy Status31 OCTOBER 2013 Academy Status 1194
Labour Government were in power—in fact, I was not a On 11 February, The Guardian reported a claim by fan of quite a few things they did. I have not checked the National Association of Head Teachers that academy this, but a while ago I was reliably informed that I voted brokers—that phrase is new to me—are given targets by against my own side 84 times when we were in government. the Department for Education on the number of the That must be some sort of record and it goes to show schools they must convert. One question I wanted to that I am not above having a crack at my own side if I ask the Minister is whether those targets exists. Are think it necessary. academy brokers told, “You have to convert so many It is widely agreed that two things contribute to schools by such a point in future”? The same story improvements in schools—good leadership and good recorded one head who claimed she had gone to a teaching—but neither necessarily arises out of academy meeting and been told she was not allowed to leave until status. I am sure there are academies with good leadership she had made a decision on the future of her school. and good teaching, but there are also state maintained Clearly, that is an unacceptable way to treat anybody, schools that have both those things. Serious concerns including a head teacher. have been highlighted in various media reports about There are also examples of head teachers and governors the governance and accountability in academy schools having to concentrate on demands placed on them by and free schools, although we are focusing on academies. the Department rather than concentrating on improving We have seen stories in the press about chains of the school. I am thinking of schools that have problems— academies that are starting to form and which have failing schools in special measures or schools that are been accused of moving investment from the schools to given an Ofsted verdict of requiring improvement. They other things. Their chief executives are earning very might find that their time is taken up engaging with the high, perhaps inflated salaries, and large sums are spent Department in discussions on the future status of the on hospitality and junkets. The Select Committee on school rather than engaging in improving the school. Education is yet to look at the record of academies. I I have seen a number of Ofsted reports that make it am sure it will find that there are good ones, but also clear that that is happening. For example, one report—I that there are question marks over accountability and cannot mention the local authority or the school because democratic processes, which are not in place. it is in another constituency, and mentioning it would The process by which schools become academies be a contravention of parliamentary convention—states: raises questions for the Department for Education. “Another significant barrier to improvement has been the There are, for instance, conflicts of interest. On 20 December amount of time the headteacher has been involved in the discussions last year, the BBC revealed that at least four advisers about transferring to an academy…Lengthy and time-consuming contracted to work on the sponsored academies programme meetings with parents, unions, staff and external agencies have by the Department for Education are also Ofsted inspectors, taken leaders’ and governors’ focus away from school improvement”. which I would say was a conflict of interest. There are I have a feeling that, over the next few years, we will also a number who, according to the same report, have see in the media stories of financial mismanagement financial interests with academies and free schools but arising from a lack of accountability, checks and balances, also work for the Department—again, there are questions and democracy in the governance of academies and free to be answered. schools. A parallel can be drawn with the situation On 13 February The Independent reported that the when the Government introduced co-operation for further Department was busy offering money—in other words, education colleges in 1992. Some of the colleges were inducements—to schools, which seems to have happened fine and worked perfectly well but, because of the lack mainly in the north-west. It was reported that 32 schools of accountability, a series of scandals followed—they in Lancashire were offered sums of £40,000, or slightly were documented pretty closely by a number of less, for that purpose. They were told, “If you become publications—in which some principals, because they an academy, you will receive a cash injection of £40,000.” were given a free hand, abused their position. They got up to all sorts of things, financial and otherwise, that were deeply questionable. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I am glad my hon. Friend has mentioned what is going on in the To conclude, I have a number of questions for the north-west, because there has been a lot of concern in Minister. I should like him to answer them, but if he schools in Lancashire, Merseyside and elsewhere about does not have answers to hand, I should like him to the approaches made by brokers—not just financial write to me with the information. Are any contractors inducements, but a lot of pressure put on to a school to who are paid by the Department also Ofsted inspectors? convert to academy status. Does my hon. Friend agree Is anybody working in any way for the Department who that one reason there is so much opposition to these has a financial interest in academies and/or free schools? conversions is the concern among parents, and others, Are academy brokers required by law to abide by the about the use of unqualified teachers? That has been civil service code of conduct? The answer to that last allowed in academies since July last year. question was given some time ago in another Adjournment debate, and it seemed to be that they are required to John Cryer: We had a debate earlier this week about abide by the code of conduct. However, in a later the use of unqualified teachers. My view is that teachers Question Time, the Secretary of State equivocated and should be appropriately qualified, and there is a question did not say whether they must abide by the code of about that. Parents also have serious concerns about conduct or not. admissions. Once the local education authority is taken I asked whether brokers are given targets for converting out of admissions, who co-ordinates that? Will there schools to academy status. Is it legitimate for schools to be an element of anarchy because no central body is ask academy brokers to declare any conflicts of interest controlling admissions? In other words, will it be a at the outset of their engagement? In other words, free-for-all? would it be legitimate, at the first meeting, for the 1195 Academy Status31 OCTOBER 2013 Academy Status 1196
[John Cryer] These range from small rural primaries to large secondary schools. We expect these academies to work in partnership schools to say, “Is there any conflict of interest you with other schools to share their knowledge, experience would like to bring to our attention or of which we and expertise, with the highest performing institutions should be aware?” helping the weaker institutions to improve. As I understand it, when the Academies Commission In addition to the converter academies, there are now reported in January 2013, it found that there was no almost 900 sponsored academies. We have made it clear evidence that academies performed significantly better that we want to turn around underperforming schools than maintained schools. Is that so? Will the Minister by finding new academy sponsors for them. As the hon. confirm that TUPE rights apply to all staff who are Gentleman said, this is about raising standards and transferred from maintained schools to academies? getting better leadership and governance in weak schools. I thank the Minister for replying to the debate. He It is not good enough that some children are left to has drawn a bit of a short straw by getting the Adjournment struggle in schools where a large proportion of the pupils debate on a Thursday afternoon. By the way, it appears are unable to achieve minimum standards year after that the massed ranks of Parliament have turned out for year. We want to find lasting solutions to underperformance it, compared with previous Adjournment debates I have so that all children have the opportunities that they introduced. That shows what an important issue this is. deserve. This is crucial because each child has only one I have been to Adjournment debates on Thursdays with real chance in life to secure a good education. That is the Minister and one Whip, and no one else. Today, why improving schools rapidly is really important. there is a magnificent turnout on both sides of the Our priority now is to continue tackling poorly House. I pay tribute to the hon. Members who are here performing primary schools so that all pupils have the and the Minister. skills they need to succeed in secondary education. There are schools whose history of underperformance 5.30 pm and inability to sustain improvements are causing us The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): I congratulate real concern. That is why we are working with local the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) authorities across the country to secure better outcomes on securing this important debate and raising these for their pupils, sometimes by transforming under- issues in which he takes a close personal interest. I performing schools into sponsored academies. In several assure him that I have no problem being here this areas we can point to dramatic improvements in schools evening, and I am actually the duty Minister for tomorrow that have been failing for some years, but with a new as well so I would be here anyway. I do not know why sponsor they have seen significant improvements in I am getting all these short straws. performance over time. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for In the case of Snaresbrook primary school in the Ilford North (Mr Scott), who intervened. Although he hon. Gentleman’s constituency, the school was judged is not the constituency MP for the school, I know that by Ofsted in June to require special measures. It is he has taken an interest on behalf of concerned parents worth saying that Ofsted found that the achievement of and others in the area, and we have listened closely to pupils, quality of teaching, behaviour and safety of both hon. Members on this issue. pupils and leadership and management at the school The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead asked were inadequate. As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, several questions, including about the circumstances of that is a serious matter where prompt action is required. the individual school, which I shall go into in detail; As a result of the inspection, we asked the governing about general policy on academies, which I wish to body to consider the benefits of becoming an academy cover; and some specific questions about the performance and we proposed an academy sponsor based on a management of academy brokers and potential conflicts nearby outstanding school. Our policy remains that of interest between Ofsted inspectors and others. On becoming an academy with the support of a strong those latter points, I shall write to him—as he anticipated sponsor is often the best way to ensure rapid and —to ensure that I can supply detailed answers, because sustained improvement. However, in this case we recognise I do not have the answers to some of those specific that Snaresbrook primary school does not have a long questions to hand. history of underperformance and was previously judged It is now three years since we expanded the academies good by Ofsted. programme to enable all schools to become academies, We also acknowledge that the school has made progress including the ability for primary schools to become since being placed in special measures. The local authority academies in their own right for the first time. We did acted swiftly in removing the head teacher and chair of this because we believe that teachers and heads should governors, brokering a partnership arrangement with a have more freedom to run schools and more power to nearby outstanding school, and providing specialist innovate in the best interests of their students. More English and maths consultants, among other changes. than half of secondary schools and a significant proportion We also recognise that in this year’s national tests—not of primary schools are now academies, with more all the data are checked and in the public domain converting every month. yet—pupil performance appears to have improved Schools across the country are taking advantage of significantly at key stage 2. We understand that the the freedom that academy status gives them, including school’s results for reading, writing and maths are the having more control over their funding. The decision best for five years, and among the highest in Redbridge. whether a school should become an academy is, rightly, I understand that pupil progression has improved this entirely voluntary for the overwhelming majority of year, and that the number of pupils making at least two schools, and will remain so. More than 2,500 schools levels of progress at the end of key stage 2 will be above have decided to convert and have become academies. the local authority and national average. 1197 Academy Status31 OCTOBER 2013 Academy Status 1198
Those changes, complemented by representations from On the point raised by the hon. Gentleman, academy the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Ilford status has made a big improvement in transforming North, led us to conclude, after Ofsted had looked at underperforming schools, giving them the freedom to the situation, that we needed to review the decision we innovate by creating the right conditions for success. In were making. The changes led Ofsted to conclude at a recent years, the results of sponsored academies have monitoring inspection earlier this month that the school’s gone up faster than those of other state-funded schools, improvement plan is fit for purpose. Inspectors also and have turned around some of our worst schools. commented on how leaders have made clear their Their performance has continued to improve this year; expectations and ambitions for the school regaining in fact, the longer they are open, the better on average and sustaining its former reputation as a high-achieving they do. school. We will therefore continue to monitor the school’s I make it clear that sponsored academies remain state progress in coming out of special measures, but, as the schools funded by the state. All academies are run by hon. Gentleman knows, we do not currently plan to non-profit-making charitable trusts, which sign funding intervene in Snaresbrook primary school to force agreements with the Secretary of State. They are also academisation on the school. required by their funding agreements to follow the law However, we are not treating Snaresbrook differently and guidance on admissions, special educational needs from any other school judged inadequate by Ofsted. At and exclusions, as though they were maintained schools. all stages, we have been clear that our goal is school I hope I have made it clear today that our absolute improvement. We will always seek to work with local priority is to see sustainable improvement in schools authorities and schools to find solutions on which that have been underperforming for many years. Where everyone can agree, as we have done successfully in underperformance is not being tackled effectively, the many parts of the country. Secretary of State has the power to intervene to help ensure that standards are raised quickly, and these Bill Esterson: I will not ask the Minister about qualified powers include replacing current governors with interim teachers today—we have done that a lot recently. On executive members, although this power has been used school improvement and whether academies do better than only sparingly. the state-maintained sector, does he accept that all the I would like to reiterate my thanks to the hon. Member evidence—not just that from the Academies Commission for Leyton and Wanstead for securing this debate, and I —is inconclusive when comparing improvement in like- thank him and the hon. Member for Ilford North for for-like schools? their role in raising this issue. Many schools across the country are choosing to become academies, and we will Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. continue to work with underperforming schools and The hon. Gentleman must stick carefully to the narrow their local authorities to transform the life chances of terms of the debate. I am sure the Minister will bear some of the most disadvantaged children in the country. that in mind. I will write to the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead to address his detailed points. Mr Laws: I shall indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, although I will say a word about some of the wider issues Finally, along with all hon. Members I would like to in a moment. wish Snaresbrook primary school, its leadership, teachers and pupils the very best for the future. In all cases, a school can become an academy only after statutory consultation has taken place. That gives Question put and agreed to. parents, governors and the local community the opportunity to put forward their views. These representations are 5.40 pm always considered as part of the decision-making process. House adjourned.
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society. As the Prime Minister said, they deserve to be Westminster Hall recognised for keeping us safe while working in the shadows. Thursday 31 October 2013 Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that the very people about whom he [MRS LINDA RIORDAN in the Chair] is talking have been put under grave threat by some of the reporting, particularly by The Guardian newspaper, of the leaks? BACKBENCH BUSINESS Dr Huppert: No, I do not. I understand that the Intelligence and Security Services secretary who looks at the defence advisory notices has confirmed that nothing has been published in The Guardian Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting that suggests a risk to life. The Guardian has not published be now adjourned.—(Gavin Barwell.) photos on its website of anybody who works in the area without pixellating their faces. 1.30 pm Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It is a pleasure Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I How does the hon. Gentleman know that? He does not thank the hon. Members for West Bromwich East have complete oversight of either The Guardian’s material (Mr Watson) and for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) for or the intelligence material with which it fits in. He is supporting me in securing this debate. I also thank the just assuming that what he has read in The Guardian Backbench Business Committee for finding the time for is fine, safe and vetted by Guardian journalists. That is it so quickly after we submitted our bid. I hope that that simply not enough to satisfy people of their personal shows how timely the debate is; the Committee realised safety. that we needed to hold it at the earliest possible juncture. Although the discussion is live in America and much of Dr Huppert: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting Europe, Members of Parliament have been fairly mute point. His argument, unfortunately, falls foul of the fact so far and have not had the chance to discuss it thoroughly. that one could say that about absolutely anything: one As technology changes and the capacity of the state can never know whether some innocent revelation has and companies to collect and analyse data grows massively, been made. However, it is clear that The Guardian has we are in danger of sleepwalking into a surveillance been in contact with the security services and has spoken society on a scale that peacetime Britain has never seen. to the DA notices committee since 17 June. That is the It is not planned, and nor is it the actions of malevolent assurance that it has had. individuals; it is merely the natural trend of what will I think that The Guardian has been deeply responsible. happen if nothing is done to stop it. It would have been irresponsible if it had refused to It can be argued that the definitions of war and peace have any role in the matter and allowed the information are no longer the same, and that our enemies are to be passed out by other people who might not have faceless and splintered and will attack our way of life if the same regard for our security and staff. we give them an inch—that argument is often made by Prime Ministers and Home Secretaries—but if we shape Several hon. Members rose— our laws solely in response to that fear, chipping away at our own liberty and privacy, those enemies have already Dr Huppert: I will give way to the hon. Member for won. Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), but then I would The key questions of security, privacy and liberty like to make further progress. in a digital age will come to define the 21st century. The world is changing. All of us carry around tracking Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I am devices, in the shape of our mobile phones, wherever we grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and I go. We carry devices that can be activated and controlled congratulate him on securing this debate. Does he agree remotely and that store much of our most personal that the focus on and obsession with The Guardian is information. Who can read it? Who has access to that extraordinary compared with what is happening in the information? How do we want to protect it? We have to US, where they are talking about the really important agree the rules now, before we lose control completely. issues, such as mass surveillance and its implications for Sir David Omand, former head of GCHQ, said: citizens’ privacy? Should we not get on with talking about that and worry rather less about what seems to “Democratic legitimacy demands that, where new methods of have been a responsible use of data? intelligence gathering and use are to be introduced, they should be on a firm legal basis and rest on parliamentary and public understanding of what is involved”. Dr Huppert: I agree. It is interesting that a clear effort In no sense do I oppose the people who work in our is being made to focus on The Guardian rather than the intelligence and security services; the work that they do wider issues, which affect more of us. is fundamental to our fight against crime and terrorism, We must ensure that the laws and guidance available not only in the UK but beyond our borders. Their work to the staff of our intelligence and security services are force make up the front line, and for the most part, they clear, and that we ourselves understand the framework do exactly what we would expect of them, for we have in which we expect them to operate. President Obama given them the tools through legislation to monitor and put it well when he said that what they are able to do is take action against those who threaten the fabric of our not necessarily what they should do. He called for 335WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 336WH
[Dr Huppert] the Chinese who were involved? How would we react if the Chinese admitted that they had been tapping the additional constraints on how we gather and use intelligence, Prime Minister’s phone? Would we be annoyed and and said we need to weigh the risks and rewards of concerned, or would we say, “That’s fine; that’s business activities more effectively. Our Prime Minister agreed in as usual”? Clearly, we do not take the situation seriously a European statement: enough. “A lack of trust could prejudice the necessary cooperation in For example, we allow the Chinese company Huawei the field of intelligence gathering”. to supply a lot of the equipment that makes up the core This is a global issue acknowledged by world leaders. of our infrastructure. I suspect that our intelligence We should be talking about it here. agents would not miss the chance to install some equipment if we were given the chance to put in the backbone of Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I congratulate my hon. the Chinese internet, so we should not assume that the Friend on obtaining this important debate. Next week, Chinese would miss such an opportunity. That was the director general of MI5, the chief of MI6 and the criticised by the Intelligence and Security Committee, director of GCHQ will all give evidence in person which highlighted the disconnect between the UK’s before a parliamentary Committee, which is welcome. inward investment policy and its national security. If we In light of the reviews being carried out in America can understand it sometimes, we should understand it following the revelations there, does my hon. Friend more broadly. agree that if the responses given by those three individuals are not entirely satisfactory, there might be a case for A change is occurring. Individual surveillance is one considering a review of accountability in the United thing, but the mass hoovering up of information enabled Kingdom? by new technologies has changed the system completely. It means that suspicion no longer comes first. I think Dr Huppert: There is definitely a strong case for it. I that very few people think it inappropriate to target am pleased that those people will appear in public, as individuals where there is a serious suspicion of wrongdoing, there has been a long tradition of reluctance about but in the new approach, we are all suspects whose talking about such issues. A senior Home Office civil personal histories can be foraged through if ever there is servant has even refused to give public evidence at the interest in us later. Home Affairs Committee; that, fortunately, is about to The Foreign Secretary spoke at the conference of his change. passionate conviction that all human rights should carry When the Foreign Secretary spoke at the London full force online—not just the right to privacy, but the conference on cyberspace in 2011, he championed freedom right to freedom of expression. I agree. How we choose of expression and privacy online, and he specifically to respond to the challenge will define the age that we criticised Governments who incorporate surveillance live in. As parliamentarians and as Parliament, we must tools into their internet infrastructure. I agree that that be at the heart of this debate. is a problem. He also said at that conference that In America, Dianne Feinstein, the chair of the Senate “it is increasingly clear that countries with weak cyber defences Select Committee on Intelligence, has spoken out about and capabilities will find themselves exposed over the long term”. the revelations that America has been spying on Angela The Foreign Secretary is right. That is why it is a Merkel in Germany and on 34 other world leaders. She problem when people break encryption systems. If said: anyone—whether it is the US, the UK or anybody “Congress needs to know exactly what our intelligence community else—puts a back door in an otherwise secure system in is doing.” order to access it for intelligence purposes, that makes it easier for anybody else to break the protections, whether She then said: they are from the intelligence community or cyber-criminals. “It is abundantly clear that a total review of all intelligence It makes no sense to argue that we should defend programs is necessary.” cyber-security and simultaneously be part of the effort She criticised the fact that her committee was not to break it. If that means that we can no longer rely on satisfactorily informed. I have not yet heard the Chair the encryption of financial transactions, for example, of our Intelligence and Security Committee being so that would be catastrophic for the global economy. outspoken. Perhaps we will hear from him later in the debate, but would he know whether he was not being Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Can my hon. told things in the way that Dianne Feinstein was not? Friend name a single intelligence agency anywhere in the world that he thinks is not trying to break encryption There are differences in the debate between the UK systems? and the USA. The US Constitution and Bill of Rights sets out a contract between the state and its citizens Dr Huppert: My hon. Friend makes a helpful point. with a bias towards favouring individual liberty and Of course, I do not have a list of every single intelligence privacy. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why the service. The difference is between trying to break encryption debate is happening so loudly in the US but not here. after things have been encrypted and trying to break In Germany, too, there is a loud debate. It is deeply the entire system, leaving a back door open, which concerned about what has happened. It has the history fundamentally means that anybody can access it. That of the Stasi, which operated within the law as it then is different from brute-force methods or other techniques stood, but well beyond the bounds of morality and used. ethics. I am sure that no member of our current intelligence My hon. Friend makes the good point that this is an agencies would dream of following the Stasi’s lead; I do international issue. How would we feel if it were not not suggest that for a moment. Germany is aware of GCHQ or the American National Security Agency but what can happen when such systems go wrong. 337WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 338WH
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): The the original intentions of the House, and that makes it hon. Gentleman makes some interesting comparisons impossible for Parliament to do its job. People say, “If between what we do in this country and what is done in you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to Germany, the United States and so forth. Obviously, we fear.” I suggest that they say that to the green activists can scrutinise only what happens here. Does he agree infiltrated by the police or to members of the Lawrence that it is difficult to find a country where the clandestine family. Human behaviour changes when people know community performs so well, but under such scrutiny that they are being watched. Is that the world in which within the confines of the democratic process? we want to live? Part of this debate must be about the use of technology There is also an economic issue. Our actions are and the internet. I express a concern that, as we rightly hitting our own economic interests. The internet is a debate this matter, we should be careful that we do not huge factor in business here—some £110 billion of place limitations on operations that will expose us to GDP. It is a dynamic market, and it can move. If people more danger, because of those people who choose to do are concerned about the privacy of their data here, us harm. whether their personal information or important company secrets, they will simply move where they store that Dr Huppert: It is absolutely right that we should have information. Germany is already launching schemes to that debate. We have to agree it—we cannot just give encourage businesses to go there instead, with e-mail carte blanche to people. I think that view is shared by systems that guarantee that no data will leave German everybody here. The hon. Gentleman is right. We must boundaries while e-mails are being sent, so there is not be balanced. None of us wants the details of exact the problem of information going overseas and coming techniques to be publicised. None the less, we do need back again to be looked at. That will hit us financially, to have the discussion about what is okay, what is not regardless of anything else. okay and where the line is drawn. We must look at the balance between intelligence We know that the National Security Council was not gathering and privacy.We need to have oversight. Although even told of the scale and scope of the surveillance on I am pleased that we are having the heads of the our own citizens. We have heard that there were concerns intelligence and security services coming to a public about what would happen if the public knew what was forum, it has been incredibly hard to get that to happen. happening. It was feared that it could lead to public Of course national security should not be taken lightly, debate and legal challenge—well, so be it. Public debate but the public needs to understand what is being done and legal challenge are an important part of the rule in their name. of law, and to avoid accountability through secrecy is simply not the solution. Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. It is essential Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): The hon. that parliamentarians from every part of the House Gentleman is being extremely generous in taking debate such issues, including, where possible, classified interventions. A few moments ago, he said that he did information. He has talked about balance, which is not want detail to be released. The problem with the absolutely central to this debate. It is the balance between mass release of thousands of stolen documents is that security, liberty and privacy and the need to keep our nobody knows the detail before they release them and secrets safe and to enable our agencies to do their job. propagate them. Is that not rather different from He is a scientist and believes in making decisions on the whistleblowing on an individual error or abuse, when basis of evidence. There is a real danger here that we one is putting out there hundreds of thousands of have this big debate about privacy almost in a vacuum. documents that one has not even read oneself? Does he accept that virtually every operation that has foiled a terrorist plot in this country has been dependent Dr Huppert: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right on communications data over the past decade or so, to say that it would be irresponsible to publish hundreds and that it is essential for our agencies to have those of thousands of documents without having a look at powers, but obviously within a robust legal framework? them. That is why I am so glad that that is what The Guardian has explicitly not done. It has taken a responsible Dr Huppert: I thank the right hon. Lady for her approach and managed to prevent that. We can imagine intervention. No one is saying that we should make what could have happened if there had been a WikiLeaks- illegal the collection of communications data; that would style publication. The hon. Gentleman should be concerned be a problem. She is also right to say that we need about the fact that a contractor was able to get hold of evidence; we cannot have a vacuum. That is exactly why all the information, and that is a serious failure from the it is helpful to know some of what is being said. We have NSA and a great disgrace. If it cannot protect information heard people who say that we should never publish to that level of security, it should be very worried. There anything that would inform this debate. I want an are, I think, 850,000 people who could have had access informed debate, and I am pleased that we can have to that information. Was the NSA certain that none of one. them would pass it on to a foreign power? Frankly, passing it on to The Guardian is probably about the Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): safest thing that could have happened to it. The hon. Gentleman refers to the Stasi and to the One of the functions of Parliament is to pass legislation different cultural approach that we have here in the UK and scrutinise the work of the Government. However, if towards many of these issues. A view that is shared by we do not know what is happening, how can there be people with a similar mindset—perhaps it is one that he any scrutiny? We see legislation such as the Regulation thinks is not true—is that somehow the intelligence of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 being used beyond agencies are able to intercept at will. Will he go into 339WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 340WH
[Mark Field] Given such concerns, I was pleased with much of the coalition agreement. We Liberal Democrats insisted on some detail about precisely the protection—the amount a particular element, which was a commitment to ending of warranty and the legal framework—that is absolutely “the storage of internet and email records without good reason”. necessary before any internet account or telephone can That was accepted by both parts of the coalition. I am be tapped? not sure whether the Home Secretary saw that, because she then pushed ahead with the draft Communications Dr Huppert: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting Data Bill, which would have required the storing of point, and there are a number of routes to that. For e-mail and internet records for everybody, which blows communications data, he will be aware that no warrant a hole through the idea of “without good reason”. It is required. He will also be aware that, with the sole was envisaged that an extra £1.8 billion would be spent exception of evidence collected by local councils under over 10 years to keep those extra records. That would RIPA, there is no judicial oversight of any kind at any have allowed the Home Secretary to require internet stage. I am not aware of exceptions to that, and that is a service providers to keep track of every website that weakness. There is an internal process—I do not doubt everyone in the country goes to—everything that we do the good intentions of the people who work on this—but on Facebook or Google—with a huge growth in there is no independent external oversight from a judicial surveillance. process, which is what many of us would like to see. Let me return to the ISC. It works extremely hard, Martin Horwood: Will my hon. Friend give way? but its reports are redacted by the security services and the Prime Minister, and it is hard to know whether that Dr Huppert: I want to make a little more progress. I is done in the interests of national security and not just am sure Members will want to speak later. to avoid embarrassment. Sir Francis Richards, a former The Deputy Prime Minister insisted that the draft senior intelligence official, has said that it is Bill be scrutinised, and the Joint Committee that did so “not a very good idea” produced a damning report. It stated that the Bill paid for an ex-Minister to head it. There is the problem of “insufficient attention to the duty to respect the right to privacy, people being asked to scrutinise the consequences of and goes much further than it need or should for the purpose of providing necessary and justifiable official access to communications decisions that they made, and that makes it hard to data.” develop the right sort of relationship. The report was a unanimous cross-House report, which The ISC is under-resourced and not properly accountable described information provided by the Home Office as to Parliament. There is a real issue to understanding the “fanciful and misleading”. I am pleased to say that that detailed technological components of much of this. I Bill is now dead. am not certain whether there is enough support to ensure that members understand the consequences of We said that the information was misleading before fake secure socket layer certificates and how phishing or we knew that the intelligence and security services already man-in-the-middle attacks work. I am sure that the had access to much of the information that they claimed right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) was missing. To quote the Chair of the Joint Committee, will be happy to explain them when she speaks later. the former Conservative Home Office Minister, Lord Blencathra: We need better scrutiny generally and not just of the “Some people were very economical with the actuality. I think Intelligence and Security Committee. We keep hearing we would have regarded this as highly, highly relevant. I personally messages about the risk of “going dark”—we heard all am annoyed we were not given this information.” about that in relation to the draft Communications The Home Office needs to be clear with Parliament Data Bill. It is simply not true. There is far more when asking for new powers. information available now to the intelligence security community and to the police than at any time in the Even our current laws are incredibly broad. Although past. People now carry mobile phone devices, which we have very welcome reassurances from the Foreign keep track of where people are almost constantly. I do Secretary that the agencies stick to the law—I absolutely not blame the agencies. Of course I can see the argument credit that—the law is vague and broad. Section 94 of that there will always be for having more information, the Telecommunications Act 1984, for example, allows but we must provide a counterbalance. Dame Stella secret directions Rimington, former head of MI5, said: “of a general character” “It’s very important for our intelligence services to have a kind that are of oversight which people have confidence in. I think that it may “in the interests of national security or relations with the government mean it is now the time to look again at the oversight.” of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom.” I agree with her. So if the US asks for something, we are supposed to We have seen further calls for even more information provide it. The information does not have to be provided to be collected. The previous Government established to Parliament, and it gags whoever the directions are the interception modernisation programme to create a served on. vast database designed to log all details of text messages, When the Joint Committee looked at this, we had to phone calls and e-mails in the UK. In the interests of admit that we could not find any information about cross-party unity, I will not go on about other authoritarian how the power was being used. There was no ability to measures: the drive for 90-day detention without charge, have any oversight. RIPA has drawn lots of criticism for ID cards, control orders and allowing people to be its widespread use. It was originally introduced to take forcibly relocated. They are all now things of the past, account of technological change, but it is so broad that and I am pleased that that is the case. it led to serious abuses of privacy. It allowed council 341WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 342WH officials to put children and their parents under surveillance Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. The Chairman at home and in their daily movements to find out of Ways and Means has given permission for me to whether they lived in a particular school catchment impose a time limit. At least 12 Members wish to speak, area. Most of us would not think that that was in the so I intend to impose a 10-minute time limit on each same vein as counter-terrorism. That is clearly speech. Will Members please keep their interventions disproportionate. short? So what now? Before we even consider new powers, whether explicitly granted or acquired through new 1.55 pm technology, we need a pause. We need a proper and full investigation into the powers already available to the Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): intelligence and security services, and it has to be done Information can be the most powerful thing in the competently and with an element of independence. We world. It has changed everything more quickly and should commission independent, post-legislative scrutiny universally than ever before. The internet is all about of both RIPA and the Intelligence Services Act 1994, information. The power of the internet is the power of and other related legislation, to see how they interact information. Data can do almost anything. That is why with each other. We would then have a clear, open it is so important that they do not end up in the wrong understanding of where we stand now. hands, and so important that our data, which we as individuals own, and which are our stake in the data As Lord Carlile, the former independent reviewer of galaxy, just as our vote is our stake in our democracy, terrorism legislation said: are not unnecessarily taken without our consent. “the current legislation, including the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, should be re-examined and rewritten to fit the I ask colleagues to remember in the rest of this debate current situation.” that an individual’s data are just like his or her vote: almost insignificant by itself, privately expressed; but That is not a radical suggestion. In the US, the Obama massively powerful when aggregated. We should no Administration have realised that proper and competent more unnecessarily tamper with our citizens’ data than oversight is needed, and he has established the Privacy we should impede their ability to vote. The capacity to and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, which includes deduce human behaviour and activity in the modern those within the Washington system and those outside world of big data is impacting on our daily lives, from it. It includes people with experience of working for insurance premiums and health prevention through to not-for-profit organisations. It is citizen engagement online advertising and traffic management. Corporations and shows trust. We could follow that model and create are crunching data to learn about the way we live our such a board. lives. We could do much more to fix the loss of trust and At the heart of this cross-party debate today is GCHQ’s confidence. We could publish, as happens in the US, the own big data programme—Tempora—and its impact legal opinions used to underpin the surveillance framework. on our citizens’ fundamental rights. It is a new and We could provide a clearer account of such expenditure profoundly challenging issue for policy makers. We have and lift the legal restrictions on British companies publishing to answer questions about the nature, scale and depth of transparency reports about the requests that they receive. surveillance that should be tolerated in our democracy. We should proactively publish information about the My concern about this area of public policy in the UK surveillance requests made: in bulk, the broad purpose, is that the question has not yet been put. We have with no identifying details. avoided discussing this matter in all but whispered In the long term, we should look at signing up to the tones, while the legislatures of the US, Brazil and Europe international principles on the application of human have been rocked by the Snowden revelations. Yet in the rights to communications surveillance. The thirteen UK, the main parties have paid scant attention to the principles are legality, legitimate aim, necessity, adequacy, issue. proportionality, competent judicial authority, due process, The problem is this: the GCHQ Tempora programme transparency, public oversight, integrity of communications, has been mining our internet communications data safeguards for international co-operation and safeguards without public knowledge on a colossal scale. There has against illegitimate access. been little public and parliamentary debate about whether We should absolutely defend the right of our intelligence that conforms to article 8 of the European convention and security services to go after the bad guys, to use the on human rights, which protects the right to private and powers that they have to protect us and make the UK family life and correspondence. Nor has there been and the world a safer place. However, it should not be at sufficient public or parliamentary debate on whether a disproportionate cost to the liberty and privacy that RIPA legally permits the mass collection of our citizens’ form the very foundations of our society. internet data. The work that our intelligence and security services carry out on behalf of us all is valued and important, Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? but we should not give them carte blanche. We would not want that. We need to have an open debate about Mr Watson: I can’t. I have no time. what the rules are, what is acceptable and what we Nor has there been sufficient public or parliamentary consider goes too far. It has taken us too long to get debate on whether Tempora is authorised by any other into this debate, but now that we are here, with so many pieces of legislation. In fact, we only know of the existence right hon. and hon. Members, I hope we are now firmly of the Tempora programme because of the actions of here to stay in this discussion. Edward Snowden and The Guardian newspaper. I think that they have acted courageously in the public interest Several hon. Members rose— to uncover and reveal a secret Government programme 343WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 344WH
[Mr Watson] Google and Yahoo!To achieve that, the telecoms companies that provide infrastructure to those organisations had that has gained access to the private communications of to have knowledge of, and probably collaborated with, millions of individuals without their knowledge. A brave the procedure. Was any member of the UK Government whistleblower and a courageous newspaper have enabled aware of that facility? us only now to start tohave a full and proper debate To make it clear, The Washington Post is saying that about whether such surveillance is proportionate and, telecoms companies have been illicitly aiding the security indeed, legal under our existing legislation, treaties and services to tap into data being processed by internet agreements. That is the secret state laid bare: the companies with which they have a commercial relationship. Government acting without the knowledge or permission Those telecoms companies, which are the backbone of of their citizens, which is a flagrant breach of individuals’ this wonderful thing called the internet that has allowed moral and, probably, legal rights, for what they believe two decades of free expression and creativity to explode is the common good. Just like when they take away the into the lives of our citizens, have been operating in the votes of the misguided, the common good is not a shadows to allow our security services to tap all of it. defence. Our basic rights as individuals have to be The security services have clearly made the trade-off sacrosanct. that the intelligence obtained is worth the invasion of Let us be clear. If the Minister is telling us that the privacy. They are judged on the quality of the intelligence law permits such fundamental abuse of liberty, the law they obtain and little else. Of course they are going to is wrong and must be changed. I suspect that he may make that trade-off 100% of the time. I want to know point to section 16 of RIPA to suggest that the Tempora whether the telecoms companies have voluntarily entered programme is legal. Interpreting that section requires into that agreement, or whether they have been obliged the unravelling of a triple-nested inversion of meanings to do so under UK or US law. across six cross-referenced subsections linked to a dozen other cross-linked definitions, which are all dependent Before I conclude, I draw the Minister’s attention to a on a highly ambiguous “notwithstanding.” The section submission to the Select Committee on Defence—I is probably the single most confusing and complex draw hon. Members’ attention to my entry in the drafting ever put on the statute book, and I have heard register—by the all-party group on drones, which I that a former GCHQ director said it was drafted in that chair. The submission examines the idea of citizenship way intentionally; it is what a computer programme stripping in detail. The Bureau of Investigative Journalism would call “spaghetti code.” There is not a snowball’s has highlighted the uneasy relationship between the chance on a hot day in Strasbourg that the section deprivation of citizenship, intelligence sharing with the would pass the tests of foreseeability and quality of law US and the targeting of former British citizens in drone required by the European convention on human rights. strikes in Somalia. The UK already lost a critical test of the case on those The concern is that citizenship may remove one obstacle grounds in 2008. One thing is abundantly clear: they are to information sharing for the purposes of targeting not extra safeguards, as is falsely claimed in the section British people. In particular, one former UK citizen, heading; they are intended to allow GCHQ to trawl Berjawi, was targeted immediately following a telephone inside the UK, as Lord Lucas observed in another place call to his wife in London, who had just given birth and on 12 July 2000. was recovering in hospital. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the This week we saw a major shift in the policy of the family allege that Berjawi and his wife’s mobile telephones United States when the chair of the Senate intelligence were tapped and location data were shared with the committee, Dianne Feinstein, criticised the National CIA to target him. Security Agency’s monitoring of the calls of world David Omand, the ex-head of GCHQ, in his submission leaders. She said: to the Select Committee on Home Affairs wrote about “With respect to NSA collection of intelligence on leaders of the likely intensification of tension between nations US allies—including France, Spain, Mexico…—let me state that unilaterally defend their interests with military unequivocally: I am totally opposed.” means, including targeted killings, and those that seek I am sure that the Prime Minister will be relieved that collective security under international human rights his phone is not the subject of surveillance by an ally, law. He mentioned the “ethically ambiguous” position but is the Deputy Prime Minister exempt from surveillance? of the British public because they had benefited from Will the Minister or Members who have put their necks the US drone programme, even though it would not be on the block by taking part in this debate be exempt? permitted in the UK. That cannot be right. The British What about their researchers or families? The assurance public would surely be alarmed to hear that data collected is not good enough for me. in the UK might end up being used to implement the We know that the “five eyes” co-operate closely and US targeted killing programme described as a “war that UK data are available to the USA. Can the Minister crime” by Amnesty International. give us any reassurance today that UK phone records I have other questions, but I must wrap up now. are not routinely handed en masse by companies to GCHQ and, by implication, to the NSA? We know that 2.5 pm basic internet logs are also held by Virgin, Sky, BT, TalkTalk and other internet service providers. Will the Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): It is a Government reassure us that those data are not routinely privilege to serve under your chairmanship for the first handed over in bulk to British intelligence and the NSA? time, Mrs Riordan. I pay tribute to my co-sponsors, Parliament has a right to know what records are particularly the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). handed over and why. Yesterday, The Washington Post It is right that this debate should be underpinned by claimed that the NSA and GCHQ were tapping into the cross-party support. Neither our security nor our freedoms fibre-optic cables used to supply the data centres of should be the subject of partisan politics. I think we all 345WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 346WH agree that the burden of responsibility on our intelligence Mr Raab: My hon. Friend is shaking his head, but agencies to keep us safe is heavy, and we pay tribute to this is what the MI5 director-general said, so we ought them. to pay it some heed. There was a spike after 9/11, but it I had the privilege of working with the agencies, then dipped. In the most recent speech, given this including GCHQ, during my six years at the Foreign month, the director-general said that the threat had not Office, and I know first hand that their work is vital. In got worse. his recent speech, the MI5 director general, Andrew My hon. Friend is certainly correct to pay tribute to Parker, set out the current security challenges that Britain the unstinting work of the intelligence agencies and law faces, and I pay tribute to the officers who, out of the enforcement. In fact, however, the conviction rate for limelight, work unstintingly to protect us from those terrorist offences has reduced dramatically, which is dangers. also a real issue—the question of prosecution, rather I also pay tribute to Mr Parker for an under-reported than intelligence, if we are not only to keep track of, but aspect of his speech. While discussing trying to reduce to disrupt and deter, terrorist activity. the terrorist threat, he observed: In this month’s speech, the MI5 director-general also “In a free society ‘zero’ is of course impossible to achieve...A lambasted The Guardian for handing terrorists a “gift”—he strong record of success risks creating an expectation of guaranteed used a potent word. More recently, Ministers have prevention. There can be no such guarantee.” claimed that the disclosures have put lives at risk. I want As an MP and a citizen, I recognise that bitter truth. We to take that seriously, because Mr Parker claimed that in this House have a duty to ensure that the public grasp making public it, too. “the reach and limits of GCHQ techniques” Similarly, any democratic Government must be breaches national security. To be clear about what was accountable to their citizens, particularly if they impinge being discussed, the newspaper was not disclosing on their citizens’ freedoms in the necessary pursuit of interception techniques—the technical aspect—or security. In recent years, UK surveillance of its citizens revelations of sources or operatives, which would clearly has increased exponentially, and the legal basis has be a major source of concern, but simply revealing our sometimes, and now regularly, appeared strained at intelligence “reach”. I find the assertion that was made best. Oversight is frayed and legitimate debate is at risk difficult to take at face value. The contention may be of being drowned out by frankly untested assertions of true, but it cannot be taken on mere assertion. national security. Any serious terrorist groups assume that their phones, In June, The Guardian published revelations by US e-mails and internet use will be monitored. That is no National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden secret, and learning that Western spies drain the swamp that GCHQ was clandestinely tapping transatlantic fibre- of their own citizens’ data in the process does not aid optic cables, giving almost unfettered access to people’s terrorists in any tangible way. If national security had phone call records, e-mails, Facebook entries and the been materially breached, why has no one at The Guardian like. The legal basis for Operation Tempora looks thin been charged or even arrested since the search of its at best, and Parliament certainly had no idea of the offices back in July? Why was David Miranda not scale of the use of those powers. arrested and bailed, following his detention for several We also learned that Britain receives data from the hours at Heathrow, in August? Either UK law enforcement US Prism surveillance programme, which appears to is surprisingly slow—given the assertions—or national allow GCHQ to dilute—not circumvent entirely, but security is being used as a fig leaf to muzzle disclosures dilute—the safeguards that would apply if the same that are just plain embarrassing. agencies were to gather the information themselves. I accept, by the way, that the disclosure that 850,000 contractors can access data from Project Tempora represents Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): My hon. Friend a security concern, but of course that vulnerability is mentions that there has recently been increased activity entirely of the Government’s own making. by the intelligence agencies. He is no doubt aware of the I am prepared to be proven wrong about all that, but number of serious attempts at major acts of terrorism; Ministers and intelligence chiefs need to understand there have been about two a year since 2000. Some that the bald assertion of national security cannot be 330 people have been convicted of serious terrorist used to guillotine all debate. We are here to correct that activity, and there were four major threats in the first understanding. Without revealing details that would half of this year, including a 7/7-type attack. Twenty-four prejudice the work of the security services, we need a terrorists were convicted in the first half of this year alone. coherent explanation of the damage to national security, Does my hon. Friend understand the extent of not only vague and opaque assertions. the frustration, particularly among those working in the Gloucestershire-based GCHQ, that such suspicions Mr Wallace: Will my hon. Friend give way? are raised against their activity when, actually, they are trying to protect British people from catastrophic terrorist Mr Raab: I will not give way, because I am conscious attacks? of time. If I get through my speech, I will be happy for Mr Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, my hon. Friend to intervene. but he is wrong as a matter of fact. According to the From reports in The Guardian, we also know that terrorist threat assessment given publicly in annual speeches the Government are concerned about the legality of the by successive director-generals at MI5, there was a powers that they are using—fears that public debate spike— might lead to litigation, fears about legal challenge under the Human Rights Act. Those are legitimate Richard Graham indicated dissent. concerns. I recall similar ones from my own experience 347WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 348WH
[Mr Raab] to the Executive. It needs to develop into more of a Committee of the House, tailored in a bespoke way, but of working with the agencies as a Foreign Office lawyer. acquiring more of the powers and independence of Those, however, are altogether more nuanced concerns normal Select Committees, if it is to deliver the kind of than the shrill and unsubstantiated suggestion that we oversight capable of commanding public confidence. have somehow lost track of terrorist plotters as a result Above all, we must take this debate forward, away of the revelations. from the polarised and untested assertions on either The issues need to be debated in Parliament, not side, and place the work of those who would protect us stifled by the blanket assertion of national security. on a firmer footing. Karl Popper said: Scrutiny is vital. In the US, as mentioned, the Democrat “We must plan for freedom, and not only for security, if for no chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Dianne other reason than only freedom can make security more secure.” Feinstein, has called for a total review of NSA surveillance: We need to pursue our security in a way that respects “Congress needs to know exactly what our intelligence community our freedoms, limits incursions to genuine cases of is doing.” national security and does so under a regime that This week, on a bipartisan basis, a USA Freedom Bill commands the rule of law. Failing to do that would be was proposed in Congress, with support from more the real gift to the terrorists—a victory for everything than 80 Congressmen—including, no less, the architect that they believe in and a blow against everything we of the US Patriot Act, Republican Jim Sensenbrenner. stand for. The Bill would block collection of bulk data on American citizens, insert judicial oversight—something missing in 2.17 pm this country—and increase transparency and reporting on the part of companies and Government. If that is Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I suspect good enough for the Americans, why here in Britain that there will be a sharp divide in the Chamber, not would we settle for anything less? Congress and the necessarily on party lines, as in previous debates on public in America have woken up to the scale of unfettered intelligence and security over many years, even before surveillance, and it is time that we in this House did the the agencies were put on a statutory basis. Like everyone same. else, I do not for one moment doubt the need for the security and intelligence agencies to work as required. What do we need to do next? First, we need a proper That would be so even were we not faced by the threat account to Parliament of the exercise of existing surveillance of acute terrorism. Let no one be in doubt that I entirely powers. Why and where are they deemed inadequate? accept the necessity for such activities, as other Members Will the Minister, when he has the opportunity to have said. speak, confirm that no MPs have been subjected to such There have, however, been scandals in the past. During surveillance, given that the House has not been informed my own parliamentary career, we had the “Spycatcher” of any change to the Wilson doctrine? Will Ministers episode, in which Peter Wright and other MI5 officers clarify the extent to which GCHQ was involved in what acted outside the law and in a way that was a disgrace to has recently been reported about the NSA tapping the organisation; the Government of the day tried to Google and Yahoo! communications, without consent ban the book that Wright wrote, but finally “Spycatcher” or any observation of the authorisation procedures was published. Some in the security agencies took the agreed with those companies? view that Harold Wilson was possibly a long-time Soviet Secondly, if there are shortcomings—we need to be mole. In 1988, Edward Heath—as a former Prime Minister, alive to those, on both sides of the debate—we need a he probably knew what he was talking about—told the clearer explanation of their impact on national security. Commons in a debate that if some in the security Successive Governments have been remiss in proposing services such broad data communications legislation, beyond “saw someone reading the Daily Mirror, they would say, ‘Get the imperatives of national security or of access by after him, that is dangerous. We must find out where he bought police and the intelligence agencies, as most people and it.’”—[Official Report, 15 January 1988; Vol. 125, c. 612.] most Members of the House accept. That has undermined Some would say that that was a long time ago, which parliamentary and public support for the more forensic indeed it was, but to bring ourselves more up to date, in task of plugging any holes in our intelligence capabilities. February 2010, just before the election, there was the Thirdly, we need to consider any exposure of our case of Binyam Mohamed, who had been the subject of agencies to “fishing expedition” legal challenges—I extraordinary rendition. He was tortured. He had lived understand that concern. GCHQ has cited the Human in Britain for many years, but he was not a British Rights Act, a concern that I suspect stems from the citizen, and there was no doubt that he was tortured in expansion in the right to privacy under article 8 of the Pakistan. A federal court in Washington confirmed and convention. If there is broader concern about the HRA, upheld his story that he had been severely tortured. that must feed into the debate about its future. The then Master of the Rolls, Lord Neuberger, and Finally, I am not convinced that the Intelligence and his fellow judges concluded in 2010—not in the 1980s—that Security Committee is able to provide the oversight that MI5 had misled the Intelligence and Security Committee we need. I say that without casting any aspersion on and went on to say: current or former members, least of all its formidable “Some Security Services officials appear to have a dubious Chair, who is present today. I do not believe, however, record” that the ISC has the tools or the independence to do the when it comes to human rights and coercive techniques. job properly. It is billed as a creature of Parliament, but I would not have thought for one moment that when the through its appointment and accountability, and under then Master of the Rolls and his fellow judges made the statutory regime, it is ultimately and really beholden that comment they doubted the need for the security 349WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 350WH services. They were not in the business of trying to information that the intelligence agencies can accumulate undermine the protection of our security against terrorism, would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago and in but that was a very strong indictment, to say the least, some ways that dwarfs the dangers posed by identity of some officials. It was not argued that MI5 officials cards. That is why I take the view that it is unlikely that had been involved in torture. There have never been the parliamentary oversight that we are debating today, such allegations, but the argument was that MI5 officers despite some of the changes that I am pleased about, were a party to it, knew what was going on and did not including the additional powers that have been given to tell their political masters. In other words, they condoned the Committee, will be effective, but oversight is essential. it. So the security services have a record that we condemn. Going back to The Guardian, during Monday’s debate This debate has arisen largely as a result of Edward on the Prime Minister’s statement on the European Snowden’s disclosures and much of what has appeared Council, he said: in The Guardian. The general attitude of the authorities— “I do not want to have to use injunctions, D notices or other, politicians, the Government and others—is that we tougher measures; it is much better to appeal to newspapers’ should not know about such matters, that The Guardian sense of social responsibility. However, if they do not demonstrate should not have published what it did, that Snowden is some social responsibility, it will be very difficult for the Government a traitor and that revealing what he did is not in the to stand back and not to act.”—[Official Report, 28 October 2013; interests of the United States, Britain or other allies, so Vol. 569, c. 667.] The Guardian has done a disservice. I could not disagree That is the most blatant threat to the press in recent more. times. It says in effect, “Do as I say or the Government will take the necessary measures.” That is all the more Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): If in the last unfortunate while we are debating a royal charter that is few weeks, we had lost a city to nuclear terrorism or being described as no threat to the press. What the there had been a gigantic mass casualty, I wonder Prime Minister said on Monday is very much a threat to whether the hon. Gentleman’s constituents would see the press. I tabled a question to the Prime Minister Edward Snowden as a trendy, cool whistleblower or as a asking what information had appeared in The Guardian traitor. on intelligence matters that the Government objected to on security grounds. The answer, which I could have given when I tabled the question, was that he had Mr Winnick: I do not believe for one moment that nothing to add. The Guardian published material that would help terrorists. There is no evidence of that. It is all very well the hon. Gentleman acting as a spokesperson for those who Mr Wallace: I do not think the suggestion is that want to damage The Guardian, but they do not produce any newspaper should be above the law, whether it is any evidence. They simply say, as the hon. Gentleman The Guardian or a Murdoch newspaper. They are all has just done, that if there were some atrocity, The subject to the law, as are all citizens of this country. Guardian should be held responsible. Where is the evidence, and why would The Guardian or any other newspaper Mr Winnick: Indeed. No newspaper should be above want to help terrorists? The hon. Gentleman is saying the law, as I understand the position at the moment. I that The Guardian is totally irresponsible and willing to must be careful because something that is taking place publish something that could aid terrorism, when there in the courts is sub judice, but it demonstrates that is not the slightest evidence of that. newspapers are not above the law. When they break the On Friday, The Guardian published information that law, they can be charged like any individual. I believe in the German Chancellor’s mobile phone had been monitored a free press and I have mentioned the paper that is in the for years by the US National Security Agency. Is he spotlight at the moment. If it were The Sun, the Daily suggesting that that information will help terrorists, or Mail or The Times, I would take the same view. I do not that the international terrorist network is now in a take the view that I do because the newspaper in question better position to cause harm to us or our allies as a happens to be The Guardian. I take it because a newspaper result of that information? Should we not know that has the right to publish material that it believes is in the that has occurred? If the hon. Gentleman wants to national interest. That is a free press, which I happen to respond, I will give way. be in favour of. I would have hoped that the hon. Gentleman was also in favour of that. In the argument on another subject, it has been said that we have had a Mr Holloway: I welcome this debate. I was making a free press for more than 300 years. It has had many simple point about Edward Snowden and whether the setbacks during those 300 years, but I am keen that we hon. Gentleman’s constituents would think he was a should continue to have a free press and not something terrorist in the event that what I described had happened. that is more like what happened in the past in eastern I did not even mention The Guardian. Europe. Mr Winnick: My hon. Friend the Member for West I have two hopes about the present situation. I hope Bromwich East (Mr Watson) spoke about the latest that The Guardian will not give way, and that it will technology. I opposed my own Government on identity demonstrate that it will continue to publish what it cards because I thought they would be an intrusion into believes is important. It is interesting that the Prime civil liberties. Such documents should not be introduced, Minister said in response to a Conservative Member except perhaps in war time, because they would not that the paper had agreed not to publish certain matters, assist in the struggle against terrorism in any way. I was so suggestions of irresponsibility are not relevant. pleased that they dropped the proposal, but the growth I also hope that there will be sufficient parliamentary in information technology to which reference has been support for what the paper is doing. If we believe in made several times during the debate and the amount of a free press, and no one on the Government side or 351WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 352WH
[Mr Winnick] terms of the kind of measures that it is reasonable for a security organisation to take, and the kind of surveillance members of the Intelligence and Security Committee that it can operate? would disagree for one moment that there needs to be a free press, I hope that we will uphold the right of The Julian Smith: I am going to push on, but it is important Guardian to do what it is doing and resist the Government’s to say that the intelligence services are doing critical pressure and blackmail. It is absolutely essential that work in both categories, and we need to support that the information that Snowden has revealed, which is work. not helping the terrorists, but which we should know On the issue of the documents that The Guardian about it—really, to a large extent, it was done in our holds, when hon. Members talk about prosecutions not name—should be in the public domain, and I am glad happening and things not really being that bad, I ask thatitis. them to look at the online discussions that Guardian editors have had. They have admitted to sending 2.30 pm internationally the most detailed documents and underlying Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): It is very data about GCHQ specifically. I do not want to talk too important during this debate to reassure the public that much about David Miranda today, but his data were on in Britain we have one of the best oversight regimes in a games console. Those data, in data dumps throughout the world. That has evolved not only under this Government the world, are still out there, and hackers claim that but under Labour. There has been a great deal of they have access to it. The Independent, which also had consensus about how such improvements should be access to those documents, started reporting on them made. but then stopped because it realised that to do so was The Guardian Let us also reassure people that our intelligence services problematic. The issue with is current; the have been accused of no crime. There has been no data are out there and are a danger to our national comment in any articles in recent weeks that GCHQ or security. our intelligence service have behaved illegally. That is The third element that I want to discuss today is the not to say that improvements do not need to be made, fact that The Guardian is not talking to the Government. particularly in terms of metadata and how they are If it really was confident in its position, and I believe analysed. We should also consider the types of people that there is quite a lot of tension at The Guardian on who are commissioners. Why do we not look outwith the approach it has taken, it would have a discussion the judiciary and start looking at, say, a retired bishop with the Government, who have been very clear. Look or somebody from another walk of life? However, in at the witness statements for the Miranda trial. They terms of the subject today—the oversight and framework have been so careful about ensuring that they do not of our intelligence services—I am afraid that the responses interfere with The Guardian as a newspaper and with its to the debate have been way off the mark. right to report. However, The Guardian should come I want to focus my attention on an important challenge forward now and tell the Government what intelligence to our security services, and that is our excellent British data it has overseas and where those intelligence data press. Almost every newspaper has played an important are. Is there identifying information about our agents in role in challenging the intelligence services over recent the data? What protections are there in The Guardian months with their reporting on the Snowden leaks. That offices to look after that material? is an important role, but the point that I want to make today is that one newspaper, in seeking to raise important Dr Huppert: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving issues, and absolutely having the right to do so, has way. I could pick up on a lot of his points. He says that overstepped the mark to such a degree that the very The Guardian should be talking to the Government thing that our intelligence services are trying to protect—our about this. Is he aware that it has been talking to the DA national security—is threatened. Before I continue with notice secretary? They have been in touch for many my remarks, I should say that I enjoy The Guardian.I months, talking about these things. Does he think that respect many journalists on the paper, and this is not an part of the onus should be on the Government to attack on the right of The Guardian to report on Snowden. provide advice if they are concerned about such things? The Guardian, as I understand it, is quite happy to talk I want to raise two or three issues today. On 4 October, about how to make sure the data are secure, and frankly, The Guardian reported on the Tor network—the black the NSA should never have lost them in the first place. internet—where child pornography, drug trafficking and arms trading take place. Please look at the detail of that report. If people look at the trial, in June, of one of the Julian Smith: If my hon. Friend looked at witness most active child pornographers in Ireland, they will see statement 1 by Oliver Robbins, he would see the approach that the NSA and the activities of the intelligence to the Miranda trial. He would see the approach that services were key to apprehending and hopefully—it is The Guardian has taken, which, essentially, in the first likely—putting him away. However, on 4 October, The two reports in June, was not to get clearance from the Guardian went into a level of detail that the previous Government. Following a reasonable discussion with head of GCHQ decried as being wrong, and which the Government, that was just ignored and documents many people in the police world feel will cause major were sent overseas. issues in terms of picking up people engaged in organised I urge Mr Rusbridger today to begin an open dialogue crime. with the Government to tell them where the dumps of data are, and to come clean on whether they contain Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): Will information that could lead to the identification of our my hon. Friend expand on the question whether there is security agents. I also urge Mr Rusbridger, his board a distinction between organised crime and terrorism, in and his editorial team to talk to the Government before 353WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 354WH publishing any further reports on our security services, own agencies’, and particularly GCHQ’s, involvement intelligence gathering and our activity, because The in and knowledge of that was. We issued a statement—an Guardian, which had every right to report on the issue interim statement, I might add—in July. In the course of and has raised important topics of debate in a digital, that statement, which has not been referred to so far, we global, interesting way, with good journalism, has threatened arrived at some important conclusions. The first one the security of our country, and stands guilty today, was: potentially, of treasonous behaviour. “It has been alleged that GCHQ circumvented UK law by using the NSA’s PRISM programme to access the content of private communications. From the evidence we have seen, we have 2.38 pm concluded that this is unfounded.” Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I compliment For obvious reasons, it is impossible for me to go into the hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) detail about all the evidence that we were able to look on making a measured, thoughtful speech. It is important, at, but we did look in detail at very important pieces of when we have this debate, that we are measured and information and we were able also to look at what thoughtful in how we approach it. I congratulate the authorisations were involved in the process of accessing hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on the the information, particularly the communications within timeliness of the debate. It is important that we have an it. The law has not been broken. opportunity to discuss these issues, although some of the hon. Gentleman’s comments might not have been as Mr Watson: I am reassured by my right hon. Friend’s well informed as they might have been. I will come to thoroughness in the investigation. Was July the first that in a moment. time that the Committee had examined Prism, and was For once, I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. Member that after the Guardian revelations? [Laughter.] for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas); I hope that that is not the start of a pattern. In her intervention, she Mr Howarth: It was after the Guardian revelations. said, “For goodness’ sake, can we stop concentrating The hon. Member for Cambridge seems to think that entirely on The Guardian, as if it is all about The Guardian?” that is funny. Actually, he would still be sitting here To get that issue out of the way, my view is that if we today if we had not gone and looked at this matter after ask whether The Guardian was entitled to publish what the allegations emerged. He would be accusing us of it did, the answer is probably yes. If I am wrong about being inadequate in our responsibilities. that, the authorities will take the necessary action. I do not believe that it has done anything wrong. However, if Rory Stewart rose— we ask the question, “Was it wise for it to publish what it did? Was that a responsible thing to do?”, I think that Mr Howarth: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, the answer is no. For the purposes of this debate, I will but then I must make some progress. leave it at that as regards The Guardian. I said that I would come back to the hon. Member for Rory Stewart: Will the right hon. Gentleman clarify Cambridge. In an interesting exchange between him and why the Committee did not look into Prism before thehon.MemberforWyreandPrestonNorth(MrWallace), The Guardian published its allegations? the latter asked, “How does he know?”, and the hon. Member for Cambridge, in a roundabout way, admitted Mr Howarth: Let me answer the hon. Gentleman that he did not know. In a way, that poses the dilemma very carefully; I hope that he will forgive me for being of this debate, because not everyone can know. Some none too specific in my answer. Part of our responsibility, people have to know, and the rest of us have to take it which did not just emerge after the revelations about on faith that some people know and are acting responsibly. Prism, is to look at what the agencies do, what their That is the issue on which I want to concentrate in capacities are and how they use those capacities. It is a terms of the Intelligence and Security Committee, of continuous process. We have in the head of GCHQ. We which I have been a member for the past eight years. take evidence. We probe what it is doing and what it is capable of doing. Therefore, it is not that we did not The hon. Member for Cambridge did, in passing, have any concerns or any interest in what GCHQ was refer to the new Act. He served on the Public Bill capable of. That is an ongoing process, but inevitably, Committee that considered it. However, it is almost as if when something new emerges, it is appropriate that, as a the Act does not exist in his speech. He does not seem to Committee, we look into it. accept that the powers, resources and capabilities of the I have answered the hon. Gentleman’s question perhaps Intelligence and Security Committee have changed almost not as accurately as he would have liked, but—I am not beyond recognition, in my experience on the Committee. being evasive when I say this—if I went any further, I However, we will leave that to one side. The difficulty is would be going into detail that at this stage I do not that because the hon. Gentleman does not know a great think is relevant. deal about it, he is in danger of arriving at rash judgments about what is wrong and what could be done. I was talking about the conclusions that the Committee reached in July. The second conclusion was this: Let me demonstrate that by reference to the issue that the hon. Gentleman has talked about at some length, “We have reviewed the reports that GCHQ produced on the basis of intelligence sought from the US, and we are satisfied that and legitimately so. I am talking about the Prism they conformed with GCHQ’s statutory duties. The legal authority programme—what the UK’s involvement in it was and for this is contained in the Intelligence Services Act 1994.” so on. Not once during his speech, unless I missed it, The third conclusion was that did he refer to the fact that the Intelligence and Security Committee, which he considers to be inadequate, has “in each case where GCHQ sought information from the US”— already looked at the Prism programme and what our this is an important conclusion— 355WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 356WH
[Mr George Howarth] our intelligence services, to protect our country and our spies from the many allegations that circulate around “a warrant for interception, signed by a Minister, was already in them, against which they cannot defend themselves. place, in accordance with the legal safeguards contained in the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.” Let us be clear that spies spy. That is no big revelation. Britain spies, as do other countries, to protect itself and Let us be absolutely clear as regards our own agency. to further its interests. If we were to discover that banks We were able to look in detail at how it had used the in, say, Liechtenstein were hiding British taxpayers’ information and we were able to conclude, with a high money and refusing to reveal which British citizens degree of conviction, that it was not breaking the law. were avoiding paying tax, I believe that it would be Hazel Blears: My right hon. Friend is making a very perfectly legitimate for British intelligence services to go thoughtful and comprehensive speech and speaks, no there and find out who those tax avoiders were. To do so doubt, for many of us on the Committee. It is an would not protect us against terrorism, but it would essential part of the debate that the agencies were protect Britain’s interests. operating within the existing legal framework of British I venture to suggest that it is right for our spies to go law. Whether—my right hon. Friend might want to abroad and find out which countries are not playing by comment on this—the existing framework needs review the rules—which countries are cheating and stealing was also a matter considered by the Committee, and our secrets—to protect British industry, British jobs that appears to be the heart of this debate. Yes, the and British national security. That is what spies do, and agencies have conformed with the existing legal framework. we should be proud of the fact that we do it particularly It is legitimate debate to say, “Is that, in this modern well. In fact, we do it better than most across the globe, age, still appropriate?” But the Committee clearly also and it gives Britain a place at the top table. That is not went on to consider exactly that issue. to be sniffed at. Mr Howarth: It is almost as though my right hon. I am not a member of the Intelligence and Security Friend read my speech in advance. With remarkably Committee, but I worked in intelligence in Northern good timing, she leads me on to my next point. In our Ireland before half the legislation, which the hon. Member report, as she well knows, under the heading “Next for Cambridge seems to have missed, came into play. I Steps”, we say: also worked for QinetiQ before I first came to the House. While the hon. Gentleman was a biological “We are therefore examining”— scientist, I was a computer geek. I wrote COBOL from this is future work to be done— the age of seven or eight, which was about the time “the complex interaction between the Intelligence Services Act, when he was born. The debate is often couched in a the Human Rights Act and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and the policies and procedures that underpin them, language of, “Wow, can we do that?” and people are further. We note that the Interception of Communications surprised by what is possible. Already, without being a Commissioner is also considering this issue.” member of a security service or a Government, I can In terms of who is doing their job and who is not doing find out how every person in this room shops, where their job, our Committee is doing our job; and, by the they live, when they bought their car and what their way, the commissioner is doing his job. There is, I think, credit rating is. I can probably get hold of everybody’s a debate to be had—I cannot remember where this was details without very much effort. raised—about the role of the commissioner. Interestingly, I have heard no criticism of the fact One of the things that the right hon. and learned that we do not regulate the private sector. No one has Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), the expressed fear about that or demanded that we do so. Chair of our Committee, has brought about—it is The big capitalist companies in America—the Googles partly to do with the legislation and, I think, partly to and the Facebooks—harvest our data without a by-your- do with his own feelings about the way we need to leave, sell it on and on through intermediaries and make act—is our becoming more outward facing as a Committee. billions of pounds. However, I have not yet heard As has been noted, we are to have the first open session, anyone mention that they all keep their servers offshore at which we will be interviewing in public the three to avoid tax. That is the area that needs regulating to heads of agencies, a week today. protect people. It is important that we have made that change. It is I am proud of the fact that our security services are important that when we can say what we know in regulated, and I would rather have the state than the public, we do so. In addition, although I would not international private sector grooming through my internet necessarily go along with the formulation put forward, capabilities. I am aware that each of us is subject to there might be a case for trying to persuade the interception oversight, because we are democratically elected. The commissioner to become slightly more outward facing. Home Secretary is appointed by the Prime Minister, in But that— a Government who are is created through a democratic process. Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. To allow all Additional oversight is provided by the relevant Members who have indicated that they wish to speak to legislation. The Intelligence Services Act 1994 mentioned do so, I intend to reduce the time limit on speeches to the intelligence services as though they were simply a eight minutes. normal body. The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 attracts a lot of criticism, but I operated 2.50 pm before it was introduced, and I did not have to sign off Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): I anything, keep a log or register with anybody the things congratulate the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) that I wanted to do. RIPA did not give people new on securing the debate. I regret that it does not address powers; it made them register how they use their powers. the real problem of how to rebuild trust in the work of It is a good piece of legislation, not a negative one. My 357WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 358WH former colleagues still hate it, which is a good sign, either because of indifference on that Committee’s part because it means that they are accountable for how they or because the security agencies have not been willing to use their powers. provide the relevant information. The hon. Gentleman is putting a total gloss on the practices of the past—I Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): To hope that they are in the past—which were unacceptable amplify the point, RIPA and the Police Act 1997, which to Parliament and to the British public. predated it, were a response to rulings by the European Court of Human Rights that the previous regime was Mr Wallace: I totally agree that there have been not compliant with the convention. They were introduced failures, which is why we introduced new legislation to to bring the United Kingdom into compliance with the give greater powers to the Intelligence and Security convention. Committee. It does not have to take things at face value; it can appoint an investigator to go in and do what it Mr Wallace: RIPA is not perfect. It has its flaws, like wants to do, not what it is told to do. I recognise that any legislation, but it was an attempt to put on a there have been failures in the past, but that is why, step statutory basis what we were doing to protect our by step over the past 20 years, we have seen layer on agents, our personnel and the functions that we carry layer of new legislation and new oversight. Yes, there out. Let us remember that spying is dangerous. It is were failures and no one is perfect, but our state has about risk. Our men and women in Cheltenham, in oversight and a democratic legitimacy that many of our Vauxhall and all over the country put their lives at risk opponents do not. to protect Britain, and there is a serious downside to Let us remember that Mr Snowden could have gone getting it wrong. If they get it wrong, they do not get to Switzerland—the Americans have been after Roman charged the wrong price, or something of the sort; if Polanski for decades and they have never got him they get it wrong, people die. If that happens, constituents back—but, no, he went to China and Russia. I am not get very upset, and the country becomes less secure. sure whether he is a traitor, but I question his judgment Terrorists start to win; countries that are not our friends about the countries to which he decided to run off. or allies start to win; and British industry starts to lose Russia, for example, is killing journalists and lawyers as out. Spying has a strong role to play, but getting it we speak. We must keep in mind the motives behind wrong carries great risks. that so-called whistleblower. I will not go on about The Guardian, but I will make The world will become increasingly vulnerable to one or two points. First, the newspaper has yet to abuse of communications data, which will be used by specify any crime committed by the British Government, more and more people for criminal reasons. I am conscious authorities or spies, even though that is what its public of the sub judice rule here, but I must point out an irony interest defence hinges on. It has yet to produce any regarding communications data that is so viciously opposed evidence that British spies are breaking British laws. by several colleagues. Should we have to investigate a It is welcome to do so at any time, and I would be couple journalists exchanging e-mails? If we were to go delighted to discuss that in a meeting with the editor of to an internet company to ask for the e-mails between The Guardian. Until he publishes such evidence, however, Mr A and Mr B, there is no guarantee that it will have the reports amount to saying, “Yahoo! Look how exciting kept that data. Internet providers currently have no technology is. Look what we can do.” That is not a obligation to keep records in the same way as mobile public interest defence; that is an attempt to sell more companies. The hon. Member for West Bromwich East newspapers. (Mr Watson)may want to reflect on that. Secondly, how do we know the whole picture? I am I have issues with the way that intelligence is used as assured that grown-up people in The Guardian are sitting evidence by politicians. I risked my life in Northern down in a sealed room and looking through all the Ireland to avoid shortcuts and the imposition of 28 or evidence. Perhaps they could have asked for help from 90-day detentions without charge, which I opposed, their former features editor, Richard Gott, who had to ID cards, which were a complete waste of time, and resign in 1994 after allegations emerged that he had detention without trials. Spies have risked their lives to taken money from the KGB. He would have been a keep us within the law. Politicians have a duty to ensure good man to review the evidence. that they do not bend the law to try to cut corners on Who should be the judge and jury in this case? I good intelligence gathering, to turn it into evidence to venture to suggest that a state with some form of get a conviction in court. oversight would be a better judge and jury than a whole load of journalists locking themselves up in a room [MR GRAHAM BRADY in the Chair] with the evidence. Until The Guardian produces evidence of a crime that our agents are supposed to have committed, it has no public interest defence. That is all that it has 3.1 pm to answer, and I will defend its right to publish if it John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I produces evidence of a crime. welcome what The Guardian has done. It is heroic. The publication of this information has opened up a wide Mr Winnick: What sort of oversight was there in the debate. There is talk of treason—Michael White is here, case that I have mentioned of Binyam Mohamed, who but I want to drag him off to the Tower for being a was tortured with the knowledge of MI5 officers? I am running dog of the bourgeoisie, not for treason. This is not aware that such information was reported to the ludicrous. Allegations of treason are being bandied Intelligence and Security Committee, or that it took the about, but what has actually happened is simply an initiative in trying to find out whether other such cases exposé of what is taking place and what we should have occurred. To a large extent, oversight has been defective, been informed about in terms of parliamentary procedures. 359WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 360WH
[John McDonnell] Rory Stewart: I support much of what the hon. Gentleman proposes. Does he agree that, as a minimum, In America, there has been cross-party agreement we should aim to meet the US standards relating to this that the status quo is unacceptable. Obama has set up a kind of activity? full review of surveillance activities and has established a privacy and civil liberties oversight board. The author John McDonnell: That is exactly my point. Much of of the Patriot Act has said that the revealed activity is our intelligence services are integrated in many respects “well beyond what the Patriot Act allows.” anyway, so we must ensure a common standard approach. The Americans have said that they are looking at a The chairperson of the Senate Select Committee on root-and-branch reform and we need at least to start Intelligence has called for a total review of all intelligence along that pathway in order to mirror what is happening programmes. That is exactly what we are calling for in the US. here. Others with experience have also commented. I will be brief as others need to speak, but the other Lord King, the former Secretary of State for Defence proposal is that we publish details of the use of surveillance and former Chair of the Intelligence and Security powers broken down by agency, rather than the single Committee, straightforwardly said: UK figure currently published, including the scale of “Legislation has to keep up to date with all these things and international intelligence sharing. the way people use them. I think it is most important that all the All those proposals are simply practical. In addition, legislation in this area is under regular review.” we should enhance whistleblower protection for those Interestingly, he also said that a member of the Opposition who want to come forward from within the services, should chair the ISC to give it more credibility. Lord because that protection clearly seems inadequate at the Carlile said that moment. “the current legislation, including the Regulation of Investigatory Who will lead the reform programme? Does it have to Powers Act 2000, should be re- examined and rewritten to fit the be Parliament? To be frank, and with respect to existing current situation.” members of the Intelligence and Security Committee and its Chair, having on the ISC and as its Chair former The principles of what we are seeking were set out Ministers who were previously responsible for the security clearly by a former director of GCHQ, Sir David Omand, services leads to concerns about conflicts of interest. It in a recent Demos report: could be that members are providing oversight on decisions “Democratic legitimacy demands that where new methods of that they made when Ministers. intelligence gathering and use are to be introduced they should be There needs to be a demonstration of openness and on a firm legal basis and rest on parliamentary and public transparency. There needs to be a fundamental review. understanding of what is involved, even if the operational details of the sources and methods used must sometimes remain secret.” The ISC needs to be led by those who are above all potential charges of conflicts of interest, which means, All we are asking for is a review and for structures to be I am afraid to say, not the current members of the ISC. put in place based on those principles. The general One proposal suggests a discussion in Parliament public also want this debate. A recent ComRes poll for about what sort of agency should be taking the issue Big Brother Watch found that 71% of people believe a forward and I think it should be parliamentary. The debate about surveillance law is in the public interest. initial discussion could come through a Speaker’s We need to respond to that public opinion, because Conference, in which all parties are brought together to recent revelations have undermined credibility. examine the options available. The chosen option needs I want to run through several practical suggestions to have independence, resources and expertise and must proposed by some independent bodies. I have been be as open and as transparent as possible, while also moving amendments to the High Speed Rail (Preparation) avoiding conflicts of interest. Bill, so I came late to this debate; I am sorry if others have already mentioned them. Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I speak as a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee. The legal opinions used to underpin the ongoing Can my hon. Friend provide an example of such a surveillance framework should be published, as the US conflict of interest? Government have done. The budget and investigatory capacity of the Intelligence and Security Committee, John McDonnell: That is the problem. Who knows? I the interception of communications commissioner and do not know what the Intelligence and Security Committee surveillance commissioners should also be published. Is does half the time, because half the time it is not it true that the ISC’s current resource is a retired exposed to the public. We cannot determine whether a Metropolitan police officer on a part-time basis? conflict of interest has occurred or whether— The Investigatory Powers Tribunal should be reformed so that it is presumed that its hearings should be held in Mr George Howarth: We publish reports. public, that it should state the reasons for reaching its decisions and that its judgments can be appealed in John McDonnell: I am afraid that, as has been court. We should end the need for Secretaries of State demonstrated previously, the ISC did not know half the to approve appearances of the heads of agencies before things that were going on until it read The Guardian. parliamentary Committees and allow agency and service Confidence in the way forward needs restoring and that heads to give evidence in public where appropriate. The should come through a frank discussion led by Parliament. legal restrictions on British companies publishing That is why I suggest a Speaker’s Conference to bring transparency reports about surveillance requests should the relevant parties together with the expertise to develop be lifted. a way forward that can establish the structures, procedures 361WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 362WH and legal basis on which to rebuild the confidence in It is not only the threats but the technology that is our oversight over intelligence and security in this country changing. We cannot make it childishly simple for those and some parliamentary and democratic control over it. who would do us harm to evade surveillance. We must move with the times, and we must give our intelligence services the capability, under proper oversight, to access 3.8 pm the communications they need to access. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I congratulate Of course, much of the discussion is about when my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) access crosses the line into surveillance. A lot is said, on securing the debate, which has been helpful in several and a lot of allegations are made, about mass surveillance, ways. First, it allows us to reflect on the changing but if it was really taking place, it would—apart from nature of communication in our society; these days, the being wildly impractical—be straightforwardly illegal. best way of achieving secure communication is probably In his statement to the House, the Foreign Secretary to send an open postcard rather than putting it on made it clear that he still regarded the situation in this Facebook. way: Secondly, the debate enables us to correct the slightly “To intercept the content of any individual’s communications partial accounts of the current state of things such as in the UK requires a warrant signed personally by me, the Home article 8 of the European convention on human rights. Secretary, or by another Secretary of State…Warrants are legally The hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) required to be necessary, proportionate and carefully targeted, correctly quoted the section relating to the right to and we judge them on that basis.” private correspondence, but he left out the second half, He added that all those authorisations were which refers to exemptions for national security and the “subject to independent review by an Intelligence Services fighting of crime. Commissioner and an Interception of Communications Thirdly, the debate allows us to correct a few of the Commissioner, both of whom must have held high judicial office really inaccurate assertions in the wider debate, such as and report directly to the Prime Minister.”—[Official Report, the one about the presentation on “Mastering the internet” 10 June 2013; Vol. 564, c. 32.] that was portrayed as some Orwellian plot to dominate As Members have pointed out, we have a sophisticated cyberspace when it was actually about enabling people system of democratic oversight. The Labour Government to use search engines better. Much nonsense has been passed the Intelligence Services Act in 1994, establishing talked in the wider debate, but the issues are serious. the Intelligence and Security Committee. RIPA has I must declare an obvious constituency and family been referred to. The coalition’s Justice and Security interest in this debate. My parents both worked at Act 2013 became law only in April, further refining and GCHQ and, before that, at Bletchley Park. My father, defining that Committee’s responsibilities. Don Horwood, was involved, under Tommy Flowers, in There is a degree of anger at GCHQ and among my building Colossus, the world’s first programmable electronic constituents. People at GCHQ understand that there computer. He was one of the people who kept it secret will inevitably be some misunderstanding of what they for decades, enabling the Americans, God help us, to do, because it is not very public, and that there may be take credit in the meantime for building the first electronic some naivety and inaccuracy. However, they find it programmable computer. difficult to forgive the accusations of bad faith and My mother went back to Bletchley Park with me only illegality. Their perception is that they operate under recently, after 60 years’ absence. Only then did she one of the most exacting sets of laws and systems of reveal to me that she had not just been a linguist, as I ministerial and independent oversight applied to any had always thought, but had interpreted intelligence as intelligence agency anywhere in the world. well. The habit of keeping secret things that need to Of course, there are things that will remain secret, remain secret is one of the enormous debts we owe that and there are things that are done that would surprise generation of code breakers. us if they became public. Hon. Members have referred That continued in GCHQ during the cold war. We to the interception of Angela Merkel’s mobile phone cannot know about all the secret victories our intelligence communications by the NSA. I find that very surprising, services won then, and are winning now, because they although anyone who knows West German intelligence must, quite properly, remain secret. If we cast too much history will know that the Federal Chancellor’s office sunlight on some of these things, they stop working; it has not always been the most secure place. I am sure my is not so much that we would always endanger agents’ hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) lives, as that talking too much in public about precise could find similar stories of insecurity in unexpected techniques and sources makes those sources disappear places. and those techniques more difficult to apply.That endangers people in different ways. Of course, Angela Merkel’s intelligence agency—the Bundesnachrichtendienst—employs 6,000 people and I would love to think that we had entered a safe has a sophisticated electronic capability, so I would be post-war world, where that level of secrecy was unnecessary, amazed if she, even with her East German background but that is simply not the case. We still face hostile states and the obvious sensitivities that go with that, was as and hostile state intelligence services. Frankly, if the surprised at what has been going on as she has made cyber-attacks and counter-attacks going on now took out in public. place in some physical realm, they would, in some instances, almost constitute an act of war. Some states are certainly engaged in hostile activity towards this John McDonnell: Wouldthe hon. Gentleman be surprised country, but there are also the new threats of terrorist at this morning’s reports that the Pope was bugged as networks and organised crime. well? Is that a venial or a mortal sin? 363WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 364WH
Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman makes a When Winston Churchill talked about the role Bletchley humorous point, but the activities of the Vatican bank Park played in the second world war, he called the staff and other things have been the subject of conspiracy there the geese that laid golden eggs and never cackled. theories, so who knows? Yes, of course, it is surprising We owe similar respect to the staff of GCHQ now. that the Pope was bugged. However, the point is that we do not know the rationale for any of the intercepts, the 3.18 pm precise thinking behind them or the precise techniques involved. Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) Quite apart from the overall democratic oversight, (Lab): It is extremely welcome that Parliament is at last there is a sophisticated whistleblowing process, leading having a debate about the fact that a state employee can right up to the independent tribunals outside the intelligence select on a computer any item about an individual—their services. The test for the hon. Member for Walsall address, phone number, mobile number, e-mail, passport North (Mr Winnick) is not whether Edward Snowden is number, credit card number or any of their log-ins to a obviously a traitor, but whether we would have thought web service—and thus access the content of their he was a traitor if, instead of going through the medium communications and details of who they communicate of The Guardian, he had simply handed thousands of with, the full range of their internet use, their location pages of top-secret documents directly to foreign intelligence and a great deal else. Of course, GCHQ is proud to agencies or terrorist networks, because that is, in effect, insist that none of that is at all likely, because it always what he has done. In those circumstances, if he had not acts within the law—if only. Yes, the computer operator used the media as a medium, nobody would have hesitated must provide a justification for the information that he to call him a traitor. is seeking, but that is not too hard when he is conveniently offered a drop-down menu to prompt his thoughts. Mr Winnick: Does the hon. Gentleman recollect what All such activity is supposed to be firmly controlled happened in the 1970s, when Daniel Ellsberg released by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 but papers relating to the Vietnam war? He was described that Act is, I think, more about facilitating such exercises as a traitor at the time by some in the United States— than curtailing them. RIPA is so poorly drafted—one certainly in the Nixon Administration—but he is now almost wonders whether that was deliberate—and is considered to be a hero who did a great service for his open to such broad interpretation that it allows Government country. agencies such as GCHQ to do whatever they like. We are assured by the Home Office that it is concerned only with the metadata—the technical wherewithal of Martin Horwood: Given my age at the time, I do not communications systems, rather than the documents—but actually recall that. However, the principle here is that if the Snowden documents, as reported, tell us the truth: illegality is alleged, there are methods by which people can address it. In our system, the powers of the tribunal “GCHQ policy is to treat it pretty much all the same whether in RIPA are very broad. It is able it’s content or metadata.” We are repeatedly given assurances that privacy is fully “to consider and determine any reference to them by any person”. safeguarded, until we discover that the National Security It is Agency in the United States spends £250 million a year “the appropriate forum for any complaint if it is a complaint by a on weakening encryption. No doubt GCHQ is acting person who is aggrieved by any conduct falling within” similarly on breaking commercially available security the relevant subsections products. “which he believes…to have taken place in relation to him, to any The truth is, and has been for a long time, that the of his property, to any communications sent by or to him, NSA in the States, via the Prism programme, and or intended for him, or to his use of any postal service, GCHQ in the UK, via Tempora, have acquired the telecommunications service or telecommunication system; and…to capability to hoover up vast, untold quantities of personal have taken place in challengeable circumstances…on behalf of data from the undersea cables that carry internet data any of the intelligence services.” on a colossal scale in and out of the UK, and to do that The tribunal has a broad remit, and systems have been without any check or accountability. Does that matter? set up in addition to all the democratic oversight through I think that it does. Tempora already allows GCHQ the the Intelligence and Security Committee, and the fall-back capacity to collect more than 21 petabytes a day. To put processes involving the commissioners. People can use that in context, it is the equivalent of sending all the those processes in a responsible way, rather act in the data in all the books in the British Library 192 times way we have seen. every 24 hours. Two years ago, there were already In terms of having a debate, quite properly, about 550 British and American analysts ploughing through whether the oversight processes are working properly, the Tempora database. The balance between safeguarding the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John personal safety and tracking down terrorism and serious McDonnell) made some important points, including crimes has unquestionably been drastically breached. about whether people are overseeing decisions they The security agencies are operating under outdated law, made in office. There is an issue there, and perhaps despite the recent changes that we all know about, there is further refinement and definition of the Intelligence without a genuine public mandate. and Security Committee’s work to be done. However, if What should be done? It was decided at the end of we are to find needles in a haystack, we need to allow the previous Parliament that all Select Committees, people to look at the haystack. We need to accept that except one, should be elected by the House, and not there is a balance to be struck between access and selected by the Whips and beholden to the party leaderships, surveillance, but that access is an important part of that as hitherto. The one exception was of course the Intelligence balance. and Security Committee, which operates in a totally 365WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 366WH different way, untouched by the wave of accountability The Intelligence and Security Committee should, like that swept through the Commons in 2009-10, in response all other Select Committees, be elected by Parliament, to the revelations of the expenses scandal. although I think that the Government should choose the Chair. Where the security services are unwilling to Dr Lewis: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman disclose documents on national security grounds, the will—I suspect that he will—enlarge on that point, but Committee should have the right to ask the Information will he mention the fact that that one Committee is Commissioner to review the documents and decide different from all the others, because it is the only one whether their disclosure would genuinely put national that has access to highly classified material? Surely, that security at risk—in which case of course there would be is the relevant point. no question of their being revealed—as opposed to merely being inconvenient to the security services or the Government, as has so often proved the case in the past. Mr Meacher: That is perfectly true. The real issue is The Information Commissioner’s decision would be whether that justifies its being outside the system of final, and the Committee’s report, once finalised, would accountability of the Houses of Parliament. In my be issued to the House for public consumption, not to submission, it does not. Safeguards might be required, the Prime Minister. but not the construction of a different type of Committee, It will be said that we should trust the security whose Chair and members are appointed by the Prime services, which look after the nation’s safety—a vital Minister, to replace as and when he or she wishes, and role—and let them get on with the job. We did that, of which sits in private. course, and then found out, not from them but from the Snowden files, what the NSA in the US and GCHQ in Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): The right Britain were really up to, including monitoring the hon. Gentleman cannot get away with that. Is he completely phones of Angela Merkel and 35 other world leaders—one unaware that the Parliament of which he is a Member wonders how much else—and that all assurances about passed legislation providing that from now on Parliament privacy were not worth the e-mails that they were will have the last word on who is appointed to the written on. The Intelligence and Security Committee Intelligence and Security Committee? If Parliament never found out or told us. We were assured by its does not like the names recommended by the Prime current Chair—whom I greatly respect—that the security Minister it can reject them, and continue to reject them services always acted strictly in accordance with the law, until it is satisfied with the names brought forward. that all operations were officially approved and that there was nothing to worry about. It was only later that Mr Meacher: The right hon. and learned Gentleman we discovered that in fact GCHQ, through the Tempora is correct, but the question is whether that is an effective programme, had devised a way of obviating all that. way for the legislature to make the choice. It is all very It is high time, not for the ISC to tweak its existing well to say that there is a provision that will work if it is work programme to respond to the global furore, as used diligently and systematically by the House. I submit seems to be proposed, but for an independent committee that it is not, and that we need to change it. of inquiry to be established to examine the issue thoroughly and systematically, taking full account of international Dr Huppert: It might help the right hon. Gentleman experience, particularly in the United States, and to to know that clause 1 of the Justice and Security Act 2013 report to the House, not to the Prime Minister. states: 3.29 pm “A person is not eligible to become a member of the ISC unless the person…is nominated for membership by the Prime Minister, Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): These are and…is not a Minister of the Crown.” serious matters, but may I start on a slightly lighter note? It has been reported today that Mr Snowden has Mr Meacher: Of course, that is the point. The House obtained new employment in Moscow—this is quite can reject a name that is proposed by the Prime Minister. true—on a Russian website. We have been told that It cannot propose its own name, as happens with the which website it is could not be revealed on the grounds other Select Committees. of security, so there is clearly a need for a Russian whistleblower, if not Mr Snowden. When the Committee has completed an inquiry, often, of course, at the behest of the Prime Minister—although In the time available, I will concentrate on two matters. I am aware that it can pursue its own investigations—it The first is that the ISC is quite willing to be criticised, sends its report directly to the Prime Minister. That is a but I think that all its members would prefer to be secret back channel within the existing power structure, criticised by people who have taken the trouble to find with no direct accountability to the public. The Prime out what Parliament has approved in the past 12 months Minister can modify the report in any way he or she and how the new ISC has been constituted. chooses and then publish it without any indication of When the current Committee came into existence at the changes, or publish it in redacted form, or not the beginning of this Parliament, our first work was to publish it at all. That is not serious scrutiny. It is a safe review all the existing powers. We came to the conclusion cover for the Prime Minister, to give the impression that that the original 1994 Act was out of date and needed a difficult and sometimes, for the Government, embarrassing to be replaced. We put a series of recommendations issue has been properly investigated, when, in fact, MI5 to the Government, who accepted 99% of them, and the or GCHQ disclose to the Committee only what they Opposition were of a similar mind. choose, and the Prime Minister reveals what her or she I remind right hon. and hon. Members, or those who wants to. Genuine accountability in such matters is are apparently not aware of them, of the fundamental needed, and is long overdue. changes that have been made. First, under the new 367WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 368WH
[Sir Malcolm Rifkind] as well as by those who have supported him. Like others, they have said that we are living in a society in legislation, we now report to Parliament, not to the Prime which, to use their term, there is “mass surveillance”. If Minister. Secondly, as I have said, Parliament has the that means anything, it is an accusation: the implication last word on who the Committee members are. Thirdly, is that all our e-mails are or will be examined by contrary to the suggestion by the right hon. Member for GCHQ—as it chooses and by its own methods—as Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) that the Prime though something like that was now available. They Minister should continue to appoint the Chairman, the seem totally to misunderstand or not to refer to the Committee will in future choose the Chairman from reality of what happens with modern technology, so in among its own members. That is a big change. the brief time available, I will share with them what they My second point is that the powers have been ought to know. It is not secret, but is in the public transformed. For all the years since the Committee domain. came into existence, we could not require intelligence Modern computers, which can indeed digest vast agencies to give us information that they did not wish to amounts of e-mails or communications data, are provide. We could make requests, to which they often programmed to run using certain selectors, such as an acceded, but we could not require them to do so. The e-mail address that might belong to a terrorist or some new legislation requires them to respond and give us the other information relating to terrorism. They are information we seek. programmed to go through millions and millions of Until now, the legislation did not even mention the communications and to discard, without their having most important part of agencies’activities—their operations. been looked at—no human eye looks at any of the Any Committee involvement in operations was incidental e-mails—all those to which selectors are not attached. or at the request of the Prime Minister, or it was done Of the totality processed by computers, perhaps 0.01% voluntarily when agencies were willing to co-operate. will have selectors that the computer has been programmed Now we have not just the opportunity but the right to to look for. The communications of the other 99.99%— demand from the agencies all information regarding covering virtually every citizen of this country, bar a nationally significant operations, including retrospectively. very small number—are never even looked at by the They cannot refuse; it is our right. computer, other than in relation to a selector, such as an The right hon. Gentleman and other critics may not e-mail address. Even for the tiny minority identified by be aware of this, and perhaps there is no reason why the computers as potentially relevant to terrorism, if they should be, but I must tell them that one of the GCHQ, MI5 or MI6 want to read the content of any of changes taking place—for example, in respect to our the e-mails, they have to go to the Secretary of State for current inquiry on Woolwich—is that, although as part permission. Under the law, only if they are given permission of our investigations the agencies normally sent us a can the content be read. report with such raw material or parts of their files as To say that we are living in a mass surveillance society they thought appropriate, we now have the right, which is to make a wonderful allegation that sounds vaguely we are exercising, to send our staff into GCHQ, MI5 or sinister, but the reality is that the e-mails of pretty well MI6 to look at files that are relevant to our investigation everyone in the Chamber are not being intercepted or and they, not the agencies, decide what the Committee read. might want to see. To be fair to the agencies, we are doing so with their full co-operation. It is a cultural Mr Watson rose— revolution in the agencies’ work to allow people who are not even part of their staff or involved in government into their building. That transformation in the Committee’s Mr George Howarth rose— powers ought to be borne in mind by those who say that the present Committee—not the former one—does not Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I am happy give way to the hon. have the powers to do the required job. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson).
Mr Meacher: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman Mr Watson: I understand what the right hon. Gentleman explain why the Committee did not find out about the is saying about algorithmic searches and the ability to Tempora programme when it began to operate? obtain lifestyle information based on metadata, but the point is that the mass analysis of those data might Sir Malcolm Rifkind: The right hon. Gentleman does identify patterns of behaviour that we do not know not have the faintest idea whether the Committee was about and so give people leverage. It is the very use of aware of programmes of any kind. We are given classified such algorithmic search terms that raises people’s fears. information, and the whole point of an independent Committee having access to top secret information, Sir Malcolm Rifkind: The hon. Gentleman’s point whatever that is, is that we do not announce what such may be a very strong one with regard to matters unrelated information is. If he can devise a system whereby secret to national security—for example, what companies do information can be made available to all law-abiding in sharing commercial data—but I must tell him that British citizens, without its being simultaneously made the intelligence agencies have far more important things available to the rest of the world, I am interested in to do than to look at patterns of behaviour, unless they hearing about it, but I do not think that he is likely to are directly relevant to a terrorist threat or serious meet that requirement. crime. That is their function and legal duty, and if they In the short time available, I want to deal with the go beyond it, they are committing a crime—even if they fundamental challenge mentioned by the hon. Member had the time, which they do not have, or the inclination for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who secured the debate, to do so. 369WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 370WH
I am not arguing that there are no legitimate issues In a nutshell, the ability to oversee operational activities for public debate; I am saying, as my hon. Friends have for the first time is helping strike an important balance done, that there is a legitimate public debate. The Intelligence that we as legislators and politicians need. It is up to us and Security Committee has already said that it will to set strategy, and it is up to the professionals—the conduct an investigation into whether the three Acts—the people whom we trust in places such as GCHQ and our Human Rights Act, RIPA and the Intelligence Services other agencies—to get on with the job, but oversight is Act—remain appropriate, given the dramatic changes vital. in technology over the past few years. We will do that work, as it is right to do, to identify whether, in our Mr Ellwood: My hon. Friend mentioned GCHQ, view, the balance between security and privacy is which has been mentioned numerous times in this debate. appropriate. Does he share my concern that university syllabuses Unlike in the past, some of the inquiry’s sessions will overlap by only 15% on cyber-technology? We need be in public; they cannot all be, for obvious reasons. greater agreement on what is required if we are to create Unprecedentedly, we will have public evidence sessions the experts needed now and in future. so that everyone can be part of the debate. There has been a revolution in oversight, and right hon. and hon. Mr Buckland: My hon. Friend is right. The challenge Members should acknowledge and recognise that fact. will get ever more complex, so the skills needed will be It is no coincidence that, as the technological capabilities the sort that we may not even have thought of yet. It is available to not just the intelligence agencies but terrorists that type of environment. In a nutshell, the status quo and criminals have expanded dramatically over the past will never be an option when it comes to intelligence 20 years, oversight has also expanded dramatically. I say and security, which is why I welcome warmly the without fear of contradiction that, with the one exception Committee’s intention to consider the operation of the of the United States—it has intelligence oversight powers Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, or RIPA, that are not exactly the same in detail as ours, but are as we have been calling it all afternoon. comparable to them—no other country in the world, As I said earlier in an intervention, RIPA was a response including democratic ones, has both substantial intelligence to what was seen as a deficiency in United Kingdom law agencies and such a degree of oversight. in a number of cases that the Strasbourg Court considered relating to the interception of communications. RIPA Mr Watson: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman was seen as an important consolidation of powers that give way? had already been given to the police that, as we have heard, were extended to other agencies in a way that Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I am sorry, but I cannot at this caused controversy and proper concern. The Government stage. have done much work to roll that back, but RIPA itself Given our willingness to have our first public hearing is now in need of an update. with the intelligence chiefs next week in front of the On both sides of the argument that we have heard in cameras, plus other public sessions, as well as the new this debate, there is agreement that, for whatever motive, powers we are already exercising, I ask right hon. and RIPA needs careful consideration. The intention behind hon. Members to test whether we use such powers the Government’s proposals on data retention and collection properly. They should not say that we do not have those involved the need to update RIPA. Using that consensus powers in the first place, because there is not a single gives us the potential to ensure that the Act is as new power that they have suggested should be given to up-to-date as possible. The challenge will be how to the Intelligence and Security Committee that we do not future-proof it. I do not have an easy answer. As we now have. know, in the world of information technology, to use a well-worn phrase, change is the only constant. Dr Huppert: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? We all know that we have moved from an era when Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I cannot, unfortunately. privacy in our own homes and of our personal chattels was important into an era when our personal data are Right hon. and hon. Members should by all means the most valuable thing that we possess. When it comes scrutinise whether we use the powers properly, but they to the retention of our personal data, the right to should please do so on the basis of knowledge about the privacy is under challenge as never before. Article 8 has Act that Parliament approved within the past 12 months. been mentioned, quite properly, by several Members including, among others, the hon. Member for West 3.40 pm Bromwich East (Mr Watson) in an eloquent speech, as Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It is a we have come to expect from him. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady, However, it has also been rightly pointed out that and to follow my right hon. and learned Friend the that right is qualified on grounds not only of national Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), the security but of crime prevention, health protection and, Chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee. He is lastly and importantly, protection of the rights and right to make important points about the Committee’s freedoms of others. Herein lies the passion with which increased powers and remit. I add that the Committee my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre and Preston now has a remit to examine not only operational issues North (Mr Wallace) addressed the House earlier. He relating to the three intelligence agencies but it can believes firmly and rightly that the activities of the examine the Office for Security and Counter-Terrorism security services are meant to guarantee the freedoms within the Home Office, the Ministry of Defence’s of all of us. Therefore, the qualification in article 8 is intelligence arm and the Cabinet Office. Its ambit has emblematic of the balance that must be struck when we been radically and importantly widened. come to such issues. 371WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 372WH
[Mr Buckland] acts of terrorism and threats to our country and prevent them from causing chaos, death and mayhem on our I will focus on one aspect of the debate on which we streets. have not touched today. It concerns schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000, which is particularly relevant in the Several hon. Members rose— David Miranda case. I will not dwell on that matter Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): To accommodate specifically, but I will discuss the important work of the three Members still seeking to catch my eye, I am David Anderson QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism reducing the time limit for speeches to six minutes. legislation, who makes important and helpful recommendations to the Government about how we 3.49 pm can get the balance right on significant issues such as Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I join this debate terrorism prevention and investigation measures, control on the oversight of the intelligence services as a former orders and the use of schedule 7. diplomat who, on his first posting overseas, made a I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human telephone call to a western ally embassy that was interrupted Rights. We have considered carefully the Anti-social by a third party with the phrase, “Please repeat the last Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which recommends, sentence.” I mention that to suggest that the timing of among other things, that schedule 7 be changed to get this debate seems to be driven by an element of possible the balance right. We broadly welcome the Government’s hysteria and even naivety.Intelligence agencies do eavesdrop. intention to reduce the scope of that provision, but It might well be that the motivation behind the debate there is an important point to note when it comes to use of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) was of the more intrusive powers in schedule 7. Whereas perhaps an overreaction to media suggestions that every reasonable suspicion must be the threshold for the e-mail is indeed read by someone in Gloucestershire. As police and other authorities to stop, question and search the Foreign Secretary said, our intelligence agencies travellers, there is concern that the same threshold is “have neither the interest nor the capability to do so.” necessary for the use of more intrusive powers, such as The hon. Gentleman said that this was a surveillance detention for up to six hours, search and seizure of society, that there was a natural trend towards more personal electronic devices or the taking and retention surveillance and that privacy in a digital era would be of DNA samples or fingerprints without consent. one of the determining questions of our age. I do not Our Committee’s view was that the threshold of believe that that is the case, but let me tackle the oversight reasonable suspicion should come into play at the point of the intelligence service within the time allowed. when a person is formally detained, which under the There is of course legitimate interest in the matter in new provisions in the Bill will be one hour after questioning. Parliament, which, as my right hon. and learned Friend That is a small but important example of the need to the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) ensure that when powers are exercised, as they properly rightly highlighted, is responsible for oversight of our should be—the Committee welcomed the use in principle intelligence services. The suggestion earlier on in a of those powers—we as a state use identifiable and series of bizarre allegations from the hon. Member for understandable thresholds before going down the line Walsall North (Mr Winnick) that our intelligence agencies of intrusive use of power. We urge the Government to were responsible for the bugging of every reader of the consider that point carefully in their response to the Daily Mirror is one that we can put to one side. The Committee. intelligence agencies of course cannot answer for themselves. Much has been made of the revelations concerning The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) Edward Snowden. The right hon. Member for Knowsley rightly alluded to various aspects of the oversight of the (Mr Howarth) put it well. The issue of whether intelligence service that have, of course, been strengthened The Guardian has broken the law is a moot point; the in exactly the way to which the Chairman of the ISC Official Secrets Act 1989 requires several thresholds. It referred. The key aspect in that is the role of the requires the leave of the Director of Public Prosecutions intelligence service’s commissioner and the interception or the Attorney-General before prosecutions can commence, of communications commissioner, who review all the and it requires that any disclosures be damaging. licences approved by the Foreign Secretary, the Home I do not think that we can comment properly about Secretary and other Cabinet members. The interception the rights and wrongs and the weight of the evidence in of communications commissioner, who is a senior judge, this particular case, but the right hon. Gentleman was said: right to ask whether, in the general circumstances, the “It is my belief that GCHQ staff conduct themselves with the actions of The Guardian were wise. I do not think so. highest levels of integrity and legal compliance.” Newspapers, like any other part of our mosaic of a Personally, I prefer to take his word on that issue and to society, must balance and weigh carefully the need to be reassure my constituents that I believe that those staff irritating and robust in their journalism with the wider operate with the utmost morality, rather than to take responsibility to bear in mind the qualifications to the the word of the right hon. Member for—I forget his right to privacy in article 8. constituency, although I know that he spends a lot of I have said in the past in this place that I believe time in the Cotswolds. privacy should be enshrined in the law of this land, if Mr Winnick: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? only to show that we as legislators have the courage to take steps in an area notoriously pockmarked with legal Richard Graham: Alas, there is no time. The right pitfalls. That is the job of politicians, and it should be hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) the job of parliamentarians: to be brave, to strike the referred to the intelligence agencies operating under right balance and to ensure that we as a society protect outdated laws without a genuine public mandate. That the innocent, properly monitor those responsible for is absolutely not the case. 373WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 374WH
Mr Winnick rose— our freedoms and protecting the safety of our citizens, I hope that the Minister will allow the ISC to go about its Richard Graham: I am terribly sorry, but my time has business with its new powers, and Parliament should already been reduced. ensure that it is indeed performing its duty.
Mr Winnick: On a point of order, Mr Brady. As I 3.56 pm understand it, the hon. Gentleman was alleging that I said that MI5 had bugged every reader of the Daily Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I genuinely Mirror. I said nothing of the kind. I quoted Edward congratulate my near namesake, the hon. Member for Heath, who made the remark. Cambridge (Dr Huppert), not only on securing this debate but on the way in which he presented his case Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): The hon. Gentleman and the exceptionally generous way in which he handled has corrected the record, which is a point of debate and interventions. I hope that it will not damage his credibility not of order. on the left too much if I point out how very strongly I agreed with at least one of the points that he made in Dr Lewis: Further to that point of order, Mr Brady. Is response to my intervention on him. there any way in which we can arrange for bogus points There are three questions that I want to address. of order to be struck from the record, so that Members First, on which the hon. Gentleman responded, why is will be deterred from making them in future? it so easy for junior personnel to engage in mass leaking? Secondly, is it easier than before, as he suggested, to Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): No, they remain on track or spy on people? Thirdly, who should rightly be the record to embarrass those who make them. regarded as a whistleblower? That is the point that I was touching on when I intervened on him. On the first Richard Graham: After that distraction, I am delighted question, he is absolutely right. If these secrets are so to continue and to hear that the hon. Member for sensitive, there is something terribly wrong with the Walsall North does not imagine that our intelligence system that allows an Army private or a junior technician services are interested in readers of the Daily Mirror per access to them. se. The later accusation from the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton was disappointing. My Dr Huppert indicated assent. constituents who work for GCHQ are unable to answer back directly. We should take the word of the senior Dr Lewis: I am glad to see the hon. Gentleman judge that they act within the highest levels of integrity endorsing what I am saying. Any system that allows and legal compliance. That is a crucial part of the tens of thousands of top secret documents to be oversight of the intelligence agencies, which is ultimately downloaded by such junior personnel in such quantity the responsibility of our Parliament. must be at risk. My hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton In an absolutely outstanding contribution to the debate, (Mr Raab) was wrong to say that threats are diminishing. the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood)—I My intervention on his speech quoted directly from the do congratulate him on his measured and exceptionally recent speech of the director-general of MI5. It was well-informed contribution—referred to the whole business quite clear from the statistics that he gave that threats of Enigma and the ultra secret of world war two. have increased from an average of one or two a year for Colleagues might remember that in 1974 the book, the past 10 years to four major threats in the first half of “The Ultra Secret”, perhaps regrettably—historians are this year. On average, 33 terrorists have been convicted grateful—revealed the secret that, as a result of the every year for the past 10 years, but 24 have been development of the Enigma machine, we were decrypting convicted in the first half of this year already. codes during the war that people thought were unbreakable. The truth is that the threats are becoming more The book was published. Its author was F. W. complicated and more sophisticated. They come not Winterbotham. If I remember correctly, his role was to necessarily from states but from individuals or organisations. be in charge of the signals liaison units, which comprised members of the special services who were involved in Mr Raab: Will my hon. Friend give way? the distribution of the Enigma decrypts and who were spread around all parts of the military infrastructure Richard Graham: Alas, there is so little time. The that received that intelligence. In other words, they were threats include nuclear proliferation, cyber-attacks, attacks crucially aware of the need to keep top secret material on our intellectual property, organised crime and new secure. As such, they had special security arrangements weapons. Although we must ensure that our laws and to prevent anything like the Snowden case and the our ability to review the intelligence agencies are properly Bradley Manning case from happening. There is a huge supervised, we should not be naive or foolish in any way gap in the security arrangements for the handling of about the threats to our nation. Above all, we must such material. remember that the primary duty of any Government is On whether it is easier than before to track and spy the protection of their citizens. Within that, the most on people, as the hon. Member for Cambridge has important new power of the ISC is its ability to hold to suggested, in one sense, he is absolutely right. We have account the operational activities of the intelligence electronic devices that offer more ways in. In another agencies. We should allow the ISC to use its new powers, sense, though, he is not quite right. The problem is that but we must also ensure that those agencies remain able in the past, when we wanted to track or spy on someone, to maintain their competitive advantage against threats all we had to do was to get a court order to enable the and to keep us safe. In the balance between protecting interception of mail or telephone calls. Now, with so 375WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 376WH
[Dr Julian Lewis] see someone who abuses their access to a massive database and then publishes it widely, I say that that is not many new systems of communication, it is actually whistleblowing; that is irresponsible— much harder to track and spy on people who ought to be tracked and spied upon, according to the process of Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): Order. law, because there are so many other ways to communicate.
Dr Huppert: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving 4.3 pm way and for some of his earlier comments. There is an interesting issue. Communications data are increasingly Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I available to the police, but records of the locations welcome this open-source debate, which is possibly where people had phones are now kept for a year. We being listened to live more than the average Westminster can join the dots to find out exactly where somebody Hall debate. I am certainly grateful that we are debating went. That information is available to the police and is these matters, and it is a real pleasure to follow some of used in many investigations. That would never have the contributions that we have had today. been available before. He is right that there are some The debate is about the balance of individual privacy safeguards; but 20 or 30 years ago, there would have versus the collective right to security. Spying is nothing been no way to say, “Three months ago, where was new. During Henry VIII’s time, Thomas Cromwell had Dr Julian Lewis at any particular moment?” a league of spies across Europe, as did Sir Francis Walsingham. Anyone visiting the Special Forces Club Dr Lewis: I entirely accept that point, which was today can only be moved by some of the stories under partly covered by the hon. Member for Cheltenham the pictures there showing heroic acts that have taken when he briefly referred to the need to hoover up place. And we must not forget the masters of intelligence haystacks to be able to search for the needles in them gathering: the Whips. They are not present here today afterwards. The question is whether we then have access but no doubt are listening. to the irrelevant parts of the haystack, or legally supervised The world of the clandestine services has changed. targeted access to those needles in the haystack, which Scrutiny of that world has also changed and we now can be detected as a result of modern technology. This have the Intelligence and Security Committee, formed is all about the mass collection, mass storage and in 1994. I am grateful for the scrutiny undertaken by the interrogation of mass data so collected and stored. Committee. In 2002, I was sadly involved in the Bali I now come back to the third question: who should bombing. MI5 had information to prove that an attack rightly be regarded as a whistleblower? I would like to was going to take place. It held on to that information reach a point of agreement again with the hon. Member and did not share it. Sadly, my brother’s conference was for Cambridge. In his defence of The Guardian newspaper, not cancelled and he was killed. The Intelligence and he said that it is precisely because The Guardian is not Security Committee uncovered that information and simply publishing everything that has fallen into its exposed it. Changes have subsequently taken place to hands that it is acting responsibly. We can argue the ensure that intelligence of that nature is shared with the finer points of that; he certainly has an arguable case. Foreign Office and the wider public. Where there can be no argument, however, is in the case We can now name the heads of the clandestine agencies, of a person who steals the mass database and transmits which we could not do in the past. We can bring them it to other unauthorised individuals or organisations, or here to Parliament and scrutinise them; I understand indeed newspapers, when he cannot possibly have read they are visiting next week. Our challenge today is the or in any way assessed whether the contents of that seismic advance in information technology, which, on database had been properly collected or whether an the whole, is a very good thing. We must all embrace abuse of the intelligence services’ powers had in fact such change, particularly in social media and in its taken place. That person is not acting responsibly, so commercial aspects. Indeed, the speed at which the the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), Arab spring took place could be attributed to the form whom I always admire, should be a little more careful of communications available. But technology is also before ascribing the term “brave whistleblower”to someone harnessed by our enemies, who wish to do us harm. like Snowden. It is important to pay tribute to our clandestine Snowden is no more a whistleblower than someone services. Our intelligence officers serve our country like Julian Assange or anyone else who gets a mass of without any public recognition. Some have given their information and feels that it is right to publish it and lives in the line of duty in their silent service. Their put it into the public domain for no other reason than it names are not known and their loved ones mourn in is classified secret or top secret. Basically, their rationale secret. We owe them and every intelligence officer in the can only be that they do not think anything should ever country an enormous debt of gratitude. be classified secret or top secret. Once they admit that We lost our way briefly, however, and I would say that there is a purpose in classifying some information, and the starting point was 9/11, which led to Guantanamo that some information ought to be kept secret, then we Bay, rendition, water-boarding, justification for the Iraq get into the area of who decides what should be kept war, I dare say, and dodgy dossiers and so on. Members secret and what should be the result of whistleblowing will recognise the so-called war on terror, in which we activities. took the eye off the ball. I am pleased that the Chilcot When I see somebody who blows the whistle on an inquiry has finally got off the ground and will report identifiable abuse, I say, “Well done”, provided, of soon. It will be a testament to what went wrong. It will course, that they have used and exhausted all the right report on the justification for that war and how intelligence channels and were left with no alternative. But when I was used. 377WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 378WH
As a nation, we need to be an inspiring example of one of them might have picked up on the reforms. the values that we hold dear, and we must encourage Because of all that, I am pleased to have this opportunity others to stand up for them. Once damaged, our moral to debate the subject. authority in the eyes of the world is very difficult to The concept that many people have of the intelligence replenish. Our security services have the skills to assimilate agencies is James Bond or, perhaps more recently, “Spooks.” information way beyond the reach of everyday diplomacy, The reality is that terrorists and organised criminals filling in the blanks in our understanding of our enemies. have been quick to adopt new technology, which means So much of their work is unseen and therefore receives that the nature of our intelligence agencies has changed little praise. They are our early warning system against over the past few years, too. Electronic surveillance is those who plot to sabotage us, steal from us, or kill us. now the key asset in the battle against terrorism. It is As I have said before, it is difficult to find a country therefore appropriate that today’s debate has mainly where the clandestine community performs so well under focused on electronic surveillance. The key question such scrutiny within the confines of the democratic seems to be whether the intelligence services have exceeded process. By and large, we sleep safe at night, oblivious to the powers given them under the Regulation of Investigatory the many threats that we face, as they are dealt with by Powers Act 2000. the service that we never see. So let that scrutiny continue and let us make sure that it adapts to a changing world, Surveillance is covered by parts 2 and 3 of RIPA, and but let us not hamper the work that keeps us all safe. intrusive surveillance is described by section 26. An example of intrusive surveillance is placing a device in someone’s property, which requires a warrant from the 4.8 pm Home Secretary, the Northern Ireland Secretary or the Foreign Secretary if conducted abroad. The relevant Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): Secretary of State has to be convinced that the surveillance It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, is necessary and proportionate. That form of surveillance Mr Brady. I congratulate the hon. Member for Cambridge is easily understood. (Dr Huppert) on securing this debate. I read with interest Part 1 of RIPA covers remote electronic surveillance, his article in The Guardian this morning, previewing the which is where things get a bit more complicated. arguments he would be putting forward. I also congratulate Chapter 1 addresses the interception of an individual’s the co-sponsors: the hon. Member for Esher and Walton communications—telephone communications, e-mails (Mr Raab) and my hon. Friend the Member for West and texts—and it is only under that chapter that the Bromwich East (Mr Watson). They both bring an enormous contents of such communications may be accessed. amount of experience and knowledge to these matters. There are extensive safeguards on the use of chapter 1 Fifteen Members have spoken in this debate, which powers. Their use must be necessary, proportionate and shows how important it is. It has benefited enormously in the interests of protecting national security, detecting from the contributions of members of the Intelligence or preventing serious crime or safeguarding the UK’s and Security Committee—its Chair, my right hon. Friend economic interest. A warrant must be issued by the the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) and the hon. Home Secretary for each individual whose data are Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). I am sure all collected. hon. Members would want to pay tribute to the hard work that members of the ISC undertake on our behalf. Chapter 2 of part 1 addresses the acquisition of communications data more generally, which is more I pay tribute to the work of the intelligence services. I about the who, the where, the what and the when, rather am sure we all admire and respect the work that they do than the contents. The rules on that are not as stringent to keep us safe from harm every day and to protect our as for chapter 1. freedoms. It is absolutely right that we are having this debate about the oversight of the intelligence and security Generally, I believe that RIPA is poorly understood services. among the general public and, I think, among Members of Parliament. Only once we understand the framework My right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley hit can we look to the oversight bodies to ensure that the the nail on the head. We do not have access to all the intelligence services are staying within that framework. information, so it is not possible for us to reach conclusions Probably the most important level of oversight is from today on a number of points that have been raised. Ministers. They are answerable to Parliament and the However, we must debate the investigatory procedures public for all the actions of the intelligence agencies. that Parliament has put in place and satisfy ourselves that they are fit for purpose. Will the Minister assure me that he has seen no evidence that the intelligence agencies have collected Parliament has spent much of the past year debating information covered by RIPA part 1, chapter 1 without the oversight of the intelligence services through part 1 the necessary warrants being in place? of the Justice and Security Act 2013, which redefines the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee. I Of course, oversight requires much more than just a will return to that in a moment, but I concede that the Minister. The Intelligence and Security Committee was part did not perhaps catch the public consciousness—given formed in 1994 and reformed earlier this year by the some of the comments made by hon. Members today, Justice and Security Act. The Opposition supported that is true of the House, too—in quite the same way as those reforms. Indeed, in some key areas we would have The Guardian’s revelations. Even the Deputy Prime liked to have gone further. We support the long-term Minister, given his recent comments to the media, appears aspiration that the ISC should become a Select Committee, to have missed the reforms that strengthened the Intelligence which we believe would allow the public a clear and Security Committee. That is surprising, considering understanding of how the Committee works and the he has 19 special advisers. I would have thought that processes it operates. 379WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 380WH
[Diana Johnson] both the commissioner and the Government should be emphasising the commissioner’s role and telling Parliament Such reform would also give clear protections to both and the public how his office will be responding to the the Committee and its witnesses. We appreciate that revelations in The Guardian. Will he be compiling a that may be a gradual process, and we support the special report? When can we expect to receive that changes to move the ISC towards becoming a Committee report? A report covering surveillance in 2012 was not of Parliament with open proceedings. The Labour party published until July 2013, so if we have to wait until has always said that it believes the ISC is the right body July 2014 for the next report, we could probably say that to investigate the allegations against Tempora, and we the commissioner is not reporting in the effective and have confidence in its investigation. timely manner that we all want. I also believe that the ISC, which is composed of very I also hope the Minister is able to confirm categorically senior and experienced politicians, appreciates the need that the commissioner has been given full access to all to restore public confidence. Indeed, I believe that the surveillance undertaken as part of the Tempora programme, agencies appreciate that, too. During the passage of the as well as, where appropriate, information acquired by Justice and Security Act, I was struck by comments the agencies from our allies. made in the other place by the noble Baroness I am pleased that we have had this opportunity to Manningham-Buller, who said that public confidence is debate the intelligence and security services this afternoon, vital for the agencies because of the degree to which and I look forward to the Minister’s response to my they rely on the public’s co-operation. points. We have heard that 7 November will be a momentous day in the Committee’s history, as it will hold its first 4.18 pm public session with the heads of the three agencies. Over the past three years, the public have started to understand The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Parliament a little better through things such as Rupert Home Department (James Brokenshire): I congratulate Murdoch’s appearance before the Select Committee on the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on Culture, Media and Sport. I hope the public will take a securing this debate and on the passionate and eloquent keen interest in the appearance of the heads of the way in which he has advanced his argument. I also pay intelligence services before the ISC next month. tribute to his supporters, the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) and my hon. Friend the Mr Watson: Will my hon. Friend give way? Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). Although there have been notes of discord and Diana Johnson: I will carry on because I have very disagreement this afternoon, I am sure we all agree on little time and I want to give the Minister an opportunity how essential is the work that our intelligence agencies to respond. do for us day in, day out to keep this country safe by confronting the diverse terrorist threat that this country I hope next week’s Committee hearing will be the continues to face. Generally, they are unable to make start of a process through which the ISC demonstrates those points directly themselves, and I recognise the its ability to conduct a thorough inquiry and to improve contributions that many right hon. and hon. Members public understanding. I hope the Minister will do everything have made in underlining the importance of our intelligence he can to reassure all hon. Members that the Government agencies’ work. It is vital that we do so. will facilitate as many public hearings as possible. It is also important to underline very clearly the role Finally, I was struck that the hon. Member for Cambridge of scrutiny and the powerful impact that it can have. In made no comment about the important role of the two many ways, that was brought home in a very real sense commissioners. The intelligence services commissioner by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East oversees the performance of the agencies under parts 2 (Mr Ellwood), who highlighted the work of the ISC and 3 of RIPA, focusing on intrusive surveillance. His following the Bali bombing. In doing so, he also highlighted powers were widened by the Justice and Security Act. the value and importance that scrutiny can directly The interception of communications commissioner offer. considers operations under part 1 of RIPA. He produces However, we should also be clear about the importance an annual report that clearly sets out the legal framework of intelligence gathering to our agencies’ ability to for electronic surveillance and the way it is used by maintain an edge in tackling terrorism and stopping various bodies. He has oversight of all surveillance criminals. While maintaining that edge is vital to our under part 1. In particular, he has access to all warrants ability to ensure national security, I absolutely agree issued under chapter 1, as well as overseeing a team of that that does not mean that the activities of the intelligence inspectors who consider the use of chapter 2 powers. agencies can or should go unchecked. It is absolutely As my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley right that intelligence work is carried out in accordance said, it would be good to raise the profile of the interception with a strict legal and policy framework that ensures of communications commissioner, as he has had a that activities are authorised, necessary and proportionate. relatively low profile since the revelations by The Guardian. I hope to explain why we believe that is absolutely the Indeed, the commissioner wrote in a letter to The case. Independent: The work of the security and intelligence agencies is “I am currently conducting an investigation into the various carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy recent media reports relating to disclosures about interception framework, which ensures that their activities are authorised, attributed to Edward Snowden.” necessary and proportionate, and that there is rigorous Instead of trying to decipher what the commissioner is oversight, including from Secretaries of State, from the doing through references in a letter to a newspaper, interception of communications commissioner and the 381WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 382WH intelligence services commissioner, as well as from the James Brokenshire: To be fair to the hon. Gentleman, ISC itself. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull he took part in the consideration of the Justice and North (Diana Johnson) rightly highlighted the work of Security Act 2013, although he did not make then a the relevant commissioners in that regard, which I will number of the points that he has made this afternoon. return to later in my contribution. However, we need to be very careful to ensure that Oversight is absolutely essential, but much of it must scrutiny does not seek to cut across into direct, ongoing necessarily take place behind closed doors to ensure operational activity. I am quite sure that, given the that secret intelligence remains secret. That has to be a robustness of the new powers that the ISC itself will key theme in the work undertaken, because although I hold, that consideration is very much in the forefront of recognise the desire for transparency—I have heard the the minds of the Committee members. points about that very clearly—at the same time there has to be a role for secrets in order for our agencies to Sir Malcolm Rifkind: In response to the perfectly conduct the work that they do. That information should reasonable issue raised by the hon. Member for Cambridge not be kept unnecessarily out of the public domain, but (Dr Huppert), I must say that this point was seized on secrecy is essential to safeguard sensitive methods and by the ISC itself. We have completed discussions with sources, and to protect the lives of those who agree to the Government, the results of which will appear in a work for us on the basis of confidentiality and anonymity. memorandum of understanding that will be published and include details of how these matters will be dealt Mr Watson: I hope that the Minister does not think with. That will ensure that that consideration cannot be that this is a semantic point, but there is a difference used as an improper way of preventing the ISC from between transparency and scrutiny, and this debate is obtaining access to operations that—by any normal, about scrutiny. We are talking about new technological common-sense approach—could be considered as abilities to process huge amounts of data that may not completed. have been empowered by very old legislation, or at least are tenuously empowered by old legislation. What I James Brokenshire: It is also important to highlight hope he can explain today is why Tempora, which is a that, at a political level, the intelligence agencies are whole new raft of intelligence gathering, was not given ultimately accountable to the Prime Minister, but on a scrutiny in Parliament, as RIPA and other pieces of day-to-day basis it is Secretaries of State—primarily my legislation were? right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and Foreign Secretary—who are responsible for balancing the need James Brokenshire: I say to the hon. Gentleman that to protect national security and the need to fulfil their publicly discussing sensitive techniques and sensitive duty to protect the British public against the potential tactics of our intelligence agencies is simply not appropriate intrusion on individuals’ rights to privacy that could be in terms of safeguarding their work. However, I can caused by intelligence activity. I know from working also say to him very clearly that arrangements are in alongside my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary place to ensure that GCHQ neither obtains nor discloses how much attention she gives to that role. any material except so far as necessary in pursuit of its The interception of communications commissioner statutory functions, as defined in the Intelligence Services also has such oversight in relation to that intelligence Act 1994, which he will be very well aware of. activity, and in taking decisions about whether to authorise As far as interception activity by GCHQ is concerned, the use of intrusive powers—for example, to intercept GCHQ operates at all times in accordance with RIPA. communications—he must be satisfied that such measures That is not just a statement; GCHQ’s activity is overseen are legal, necessary, proportionate and carefully targeted. by the commissioners, who analyse its work in detail. They also analyse some of the codes of practice that Mr Meacher: On the question of legality, is it not the the agencies have in place to ensure their adherence to case that the Home Secretary was extremely keen to get RIPA. the Communications Bill through the House of Commons Such levels of assurance are in place within our in order to legalise activities that GCHQ had been oversight regime, which I believe is very effective because carrying out for years, notably—as we now believe—the our intelligence agencies’ activity is overseen by a greater Tempora programme? variety of bodies than many other areas of Government business. At the parliamentary level, the ISC examines James Brokenshire: I say clearly to the right hon. the policy, administration, past operations and expenditure Gentleman, as the Foreign Secretary said when he of the intelligence agencies and parts of the wider responded originally on this issue, that GCHQ and our Government intelligence community. Indeed, the ISC’s intelligence agencies act within the law, a point rightly position has been strengthened by the Justice and Security made earlier by the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Act 2013, which has only been passed into law through Horwood). this House very recently. The points about the proposals on communications data are about the changing nature of what we see, Dr Huppert: The Minister makes the extremely good which includes ensuring that our law enforcement agencies point that it is “past operations” that can be looked at, are able to continue to do the job that they do today in and there are constraints on what the ISC can look at; it bringing criminals to justice and using communications does not have a completely free rein on operational data as evidence in court. That is very different from the matters. What happens if an operation lasts for many, intelligence agencies’ roles and from GCHQ’s mission, many years? At what stage is there any sort of scrutiny which is external—looking outside rather than within of that? the UK. 383WH Intelligence and Security Services31 OCTOBER 2013 Intelligence and Security Services 384WH
[James Brokenshire] resources, and when it has a full staffing complement it will have more staffing than virtually any Select Committee. It is also important to note the point made by my It is right to highlight the important work undertaken hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) through the ISC and the changes that have been made about the role of the independent reviewer of terrorism to it by the Justice and Security Act 2013, which have legislation, David Anderson, who has done some very been commented on by right hon. and hon. Members. important work and continues to do so. An ongoing investigation is taking place into the events It is this multi-faceted oversight that complements in Woolwich in May, work that the ISC is conducting rigorous internal controls within the agencies themselves. very carefully and with great diligence. The agencies’ recruitment and training procedures are This has been an important debate, highlighting the all designed to ensure that those operating within the strength of the scrutiny that we have and the different ring of secrecy can be trusted to do so lawfully and layers of scrutiny that operate in this country. I believe ethically. A culture of compliance with both the letter that we have every reason to be proud of those oversight and the spirit of the law pervades everything that they arrangements and of the work of our agencies. do. Question put and agreed to. In the short time I have left, I should quickly address some of the points that have been raised. I can obviously assure hon. Members, for example, about the resourcing 4.29 pm of the ISC. It has raised around a 30% uplift in its Sitting adjourned. 55WS Written Statements31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 56WS Written Statements ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS
Thursday 31 October 2013 CAP Reform in England
BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): Today, I am publishing the consultation on the implementation of common Company Beneficial Ownership Information agriculture policy (CAP) reform in England. I am seeking (Central Registry) views on various issues relating to: direct payments to farmers; greening of direct payments; The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable): Today we are setting out our the rate of transfer between the budgets for direct payments intention to create a publicly accessible central registry (pillar 1) and rural development programme (pillar 2); of information about who ultimately owns and controls the focus of the rural development programme; and UK companies. other associated issues. A stronger economy depends on investors, employees As part of the consultation, I have also published an and the wider public having trust and confidence in impact assessment for the rural development programme, companies and those that are running them. an evidence paper for CAP reform covering direct payments and greening. These are supported by a scoping report The vast majority of companies and directors in the on a strategic environmental assessment for rural UK contribute productively to the economy, abide by development in England. the rules and make an enormous contribution to society. But an errant few operate in the shadows, creating The CAP settlement for the next period will deliver ownership structures that serve to deceive. We are now very significant sums of money to English farmers and shining a light on who really owns and controls companies other CAP recipients. We need to make sure that this in the UK and leading the world in this initiative. money is spent in the most appropriate way. The rural development programme is a major opportunity to We believe a public register, with information on those invest over seven years in the environment, farming who really own and control UK companies (i.e. individuals competitiveness and the rural economy and we need to with an interest in more than 25% of a company’s make sure we invest resources wisely and get value for shares or voting rights, or who otherwise control the money.The consultation document seeks views on potential way it is run) will make the UK a better place to invest options for implementing CAP reform in England. It and do business. People have a right to know who also outlines the decisions we have already taken. controls UK companies and greater openness will help tackle tax evasion, money laundering and other crimes. These documents build on the informal consultation that has taken place over the summer with the farming At the Lough Erne G8 summit in June the Government industry, environmental interest groups and other interested committed to implement a central registry of company parties. We are seeking as wide a range of views as beneficial ownership information, and to consult on possible to ensure that we take robust decisions on CAP whether this information should be publicly accessible. implementation in England that continue to grow the The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills rural economy and improve the environment. published details of its intention to create a registry in The consultation runs until 28 November. the “Transparency and Trust” discussion paper in July and invited responses on whether information in the registry should be publicly accessible. Following this call for evidence, the Government intend to implement an open, public registry. JUSTICE Limited exemptions from public disclosure will be permitted—for example, in cases where it is necessary to protect individuals whose safety might otherwise be Inquests into the Deaths of Service Personnel put at risk. We will set out further detail in terms of what information The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice should be held by the company and Companies House, (Mr Shailesh Vara): The Under-Secretary of State for and how it should be updated, in our formal response to Defence, with responsibility for defence personnel, welfare the discussion paper. This will be published in early and veterans, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe 2014. (Anna Soubry), and I wish to make our latest quarterly In that response, we will also set out our plans to take statement to the House reporting progress with inquests forward other proposals in the “Transparency and Trust” into the deaths of service personnel on active service discussion paper including: overseas. We begin by expressing once again our profound to abolish bearer shares—for example, shares whose ownership thanks and admiration to our service personnel who is completely opaque; have served us all in the Iraq and Afghanistan operations. to tackle the abuse of corporate directorships—one company On behalf of the Government and the nation, we wish as a director of another; and to pay tribute to those service personnel who have given to address situations where a front director is registered at their lives for our peace and security. Our thoughts are Companies House but the control lies concealed elsewhere. with all their families and loved ones. 57WS Written Statements31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 58WS
This statement gives information about coroner The senior coroner for Wiltshire and Swindon has investigations and inquests conducted by the senior retained nine of the open coroner investigations, while coroner for Oxfordshire, the senior coroner for Wiltshire the senior coroner for Oxfordshire has retained seven. and Swindon and other coroners in England and Wales. Senior coroners nearer to the next of kin have accepted The statement shows the position at 22 October 2013. jurisdiction in the remaining nine coroner investigations. To supplement this statement, we have provided Two hearing dates have been set. additional information about the status of all current Deaths of service personnel who returned home injured cases in tables which we have placed in the Libraries of There are three open coroner investigations into deaths the Houses. The tables include information about cases of service personnel who returned home injured but where a board of inquiry or a service inquiry has been have sadly died of their injuries. One hearing date has or is to be held. been set. The other two cases will be listed for inquest hearing when investigations into the deaths have been As part of his powers and duties which came into completed. force on 25 July 2013, the Chief Coroner for England We will continue to inform the House of progress. and Wales has created a specialist group of 11 coroners to conduct coroner investigations and inquests into some service personnel deaths relating to active service, HOME DEPARTMENT including preparation and training for active service. All the coroners in the group will receive further specialist Immigration Enforcement training, beginning in November. The Chief Coroner and the specialist coroners will continue to work with the Ministry of Defence’s defence inquests unit, which The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): assists coroners to complete service personnel inquests The Home Office’s immigration enforcement command thoroughly and as quickly as possible. ensures that the immigration rules are complied with and that those with no right to be in the UK are The Chief Coroner has also met the Lord Advocate removed. It is better for both the UK taxpayer and and they have agreed a protocol for the provisions of offenders themselves if offenders leave the country section 12 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. As we voluntarily rather than in an enforced manner. Immigration have previously reported, this section came into force compliance and enforcement teams are therefore working last year and enables deaths of service personnel killed to identify how they can promote the visibility of abroad on active duty to be investigated in Scotland enforcement operations to drive compliance and encourage where appropriate. more immigration offenders to leave the UK voluntarily. We offer our thanks and support to the Chief Coroner A pilot operation, Operation Vaken, took place between and to coroners and their staff in this work of such 22 July and 22 August 2013 in six London boroughs to importance to us all. We are also grateful to all the test whether different communications could encourage other people who support and inform bereaved families any increases in voluntary departures. It included a through the inquest process. number of communications techniques, such as mobile Our two Departments have made extra funding available billboards highlighting the risk of arrest, postcards in to the coroners in Wiltshire and Swindon and in Oxfordshire shop windows, adverts in newspapers and magazines, since October 2007. Most repatriations of service personnel leaflets and posters advertising immigration surgeries in who have died overseas have been to RAF Lyneham in faith/charity group buildings. Wiltshire and, currently, RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire. The pilot period ceased on 22 October 2013 and a full The additional resources enable those coroners to progress evaluation report has now been produced, a copy of the service personnel inquests while still handling the which will be placed in the Library of the House. As of caseload of the coroner area. 22 October, there have been 60 voluntary departures which can be directly attributed to this pilot. The report CURRENT STATUS OF INQUESTS also identifies a further 65 cases that are currently being Since our last statement a further 20 inquests have progressed towards departure. been concluded into the deaths of service personnel on The total cost of the pilot was £9,740. Data held by operations in Iraq or Afghanistan. In total, there have the Home Office indicate that the average cost of a been 593 inquests into the deaths of service personnel voluntary removal is £1,000, and the average cost of an who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan or have sadly enforced removal is up to £15,000. The 60 voluntary died after returning to the UK of injuries sustained on removals connected to this pilot therefore represent a active service. Three deaths have led to no formal inquest. notional saving of approximately £830,000 compared Two of these deaths were taken into consideration at to the costs of enforcing those removals. inquests into the deaths of other service personnel who The most cost-effective communications were the died in the respective incidents. The third case is of a adverts, leaflets and posters that advertised immigration serviceman who died from his injuries in Scotland, surgeries in faith and charity groups, rather than the where it was decided not to hold a fatal accident inquiry. advertising vans or other forms of advertising used OPEN INQUESTS in the operation. In addition, as my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary told the House of Commons on Deaths in Afghanistan 22 October, the advertising vans in particular were too As at 22 October 2013, 25 coroner investigations are much of a blunt instrument and will not be used again. open into the deaths of service personnel in Afghanistan, During this period, a separate pilot was conducted in and one further coroner investigation into the recent two immigration reporting centres, in Hounslow and death of Lance Corporal James Brynin is due to be Glasgow. These centres are principally used to ensure opened. that those suspected of immigration offences are kept in 59WS Written Statements31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 60WS regular contact while their case is progressed to removal. WORK AND PENSIONS This pilot used a variety of communication materials to encourage those reporting to inquire about leaving the UK voluntarily and ceased on 4 October. The activity is Remploy being evaluated separately but there are no plans to repeat it. The Government will continue to enforce the immigration The Minister of State, Department for Work and rules and promote voluntary departure schemes to those Pensions (Esther McVey): The Remploy 2013 annual who have no right to be in the UK—backed up with report and accounts will be published later today. I will arrest, detention and enforced removal where individuals place a copy of the Remploy 2013 annual report and refuse to comply with the immigration rules or present a accounts in the Libraries of both Houses, and electronic danger to the UK public. copies will be available on the Remploy website.
Remploy’s achievement against targets set by Government for 2012-13 Target Description Target Achievement
To live within the company’s financial means in the 2012-13 financial year and achieve: operational funding result of £97.9 million £97.9 million Factory businesses to achieve: an operating result (loss) of £40.2 million £32.7 million Employment service business to achieve: an operating result of £28.2 million £28.1 million total disabled job outcomes 17,000 14,735 i. of which Work Choice job outcomes 8,500 8,537 ii. of which other disabled job outcomes 8,500 6,198
Remploy’s achievement against targets set by Government for 2011-12 Target Description Target Achievement
To live within the company’s financial means in the 2011-12 financial year and achieve: overall operational funding of £97.7 million £97.7 million modernisation of the business within a cost of £5.4 million £5.3 million Enterprise businesses to achieve: an operating result (loss) of £52.5 million £49.2 million cost per disabled employee of £24,000 £22,400 Employment service business to achieve: an operating result of £28.2 million £28.1 million total disabled job outcomes of 16,500 12,463 i. of which other Work Choice job outcomes 7,500 6,401
I have written to the chairman of Remploy formally approving the agreed 2013-14 performance and resources agreement between the Department and the company, as follows:
Target Description Target
To live within the company’s financial means in the 2012-13 financial year and achieve: operational funding result of £67.3 million Factory businesses to achieve: an operating result (loss) of £10.5 million Employment service business to achieve: an operating result of £30.3 million total disabled job outcomes 16,000 i) of which Work Choice job outcomes 8,500 ii) of which other disabled job outcomes 7,500
7P Petitions31 OCTOBER 2013 Petitions 8P
And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Graham Petitions Jones, Official Report, 10 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 951.] [P001220] Thursday 31 October 2013 Observations from the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs: PRESENTED PETITION The Government thank the petitioners for raising Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor this important issue in the House of Commons. The Government are committed to encouraging more responsible dog ownership and agree that dog attacks Rural Fair Share Campaign causing death or injury are unacceptable and must be The Petition of the Residents of North West Leicestershire, tackled. For this reason, the Government announced a package of measures on 6 February 2013 to encourage Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local more responsible dog ownership. Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural communities; notes that the Rural Penalty sees urban The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill areas receive 50% more support per head than rural 2013, currently in the House of Lords, extends the areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 so that the offence of having opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the a dog dangerously out of control applies regardless of 2013–14 settlement for six years until 2020. whether it occurs on public or private property. This will provide the police and the Crown Prosecution The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Service with an appropriate legal base for taking forward Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural prosecutions as necessary. The Bill also creates an explicit Penalty in staged steps by at least 10% by 2020. offence where a dog is dangerously out of control in And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Andrew relation to an assistance dog such as a guide dog. The Bridgen.] Government look forward to the successful progression [P001265] of this Bill through the House of Lords before it receives Royal Assent. The Petition of the residents of the UK, The same Bill will also provide practitioners with Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local faster and more flexible powers that allow them to Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural tackle all types of anti-social behaviour within communities. communities; notes that the Rural Penalty sees urban For example, the Community Protection Notice is an areas receive 50% more support per head than rural early intervention power that will allow officers to address areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and irresponsible dog ownership in any form. For example, opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the notices served could require an individual to remedy 2013–14 settlement for six years until 2020. their behaviour by attending a dog behaviour or training The Petitioners therefore request that the House of class. The exact form of a Dog Control Notice, as Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural proposed in the petition, is unclear. However, all of the Penalty in staged steps by at least 10% by 2020. models that have been proposed are weaker and less And the Petitioners remain, etc. flexible than the Community Protection Notice. [P001272] The adaptability of these powers removes the need for numerous stand-alone notices for each separate form of anti-social behaviour and also allows officers to ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS develop innovative local solutions that address the cause as well as the effect of the behaviour. Tougher Legislation For Dangerous Dogs The Government also propose to increase the maximum The Petition of residents of Haslingden & Hyndburn, prison sentences for allowing a dog to be dangerously Declares that seven children and two adults have out of control and causing death or injury to a person been killed by dogs since 2006, and that 6,000 admissions or an assistance dog. An amendment to Dangerous to hospital are caused by dog attacks each year leaving Dogs Act 1991 will be laid in Parliament to increase the many victims scarred for life; notes that the introduction maximum sentences, to make them more comparable to of Dog Control Notices is supported by many organisations related driving offences. The maximum penalty for causing including the Kennel Club, the Dogs Trust, RSPCA, death by dangerous driving, for example, stands at Royal College of Nursing, British Veterinary Association 14 years. and the Communication Workers Union; and believes In addition, the Government are drafting regulations that the Government’s current proposals on dangerous so that microchipping for all dogs will be compulsory dogs do not go far enough. from April 2016. This welfare measure will allow for The Petitioners therefore request that the House of quicker reunification of lost pets with their owners and Commons urges the Government to amend the law to significantly reduce the time stray dogs spend in kennels, cover attacks on people and animals on both private which is distressing for both dogs and owners and costly and public property, to enforce Dog Control Orders, to for local authorities and charities. introduce Dog Control Notices giving the authorities Further work on the education of owners and to the power to intervene, to introduce the compulsory tackle the advertising of pets online is also underway. micro-chipping of all dogs and to promote responsible The Government are grateful to all petitioners for upholding dog ownership, including training owners and dogs. the traditions of excellent animal welfare in this country.
525W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 526W Written Answers to Channel Tunnel Railway Line
Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Questions how many times the Channel Tunnel Rail Link has had to reduce its operating speeds below 100mph because of (a) power, (b) maintenance and (c) safety issues since Thursday 31 October 2013 it came into operation. [173329]
Stephen Hammond: The Department does not hold PRIME MINISTER this type of operational data. This would be held by HS1 Ltd as the owners of the high speed 1 infrastructure. City of London Remembrancer
Mr Watson: To ask the Prime Minister on which dates he has met the City of London Remembrancer Cycling since May 2010. [173189] Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport The Prime Minister: Details of my meetings with what estimate he has made on the amount spent by his external individuals and organisations are published on Department on cycling (a) between 2010 and 2015 and a quarterly basis. Details can be accessed on the gov.uk (b) between 2005 and 2010. [172743] website. The Guardian Mr Goodwill: The Department will have spent £277 million directly on cycling in the five years 2010-11 to Mr Winnick: To ask the Prime Minister pursuant to 2014-15. In addition £540 million has been spent through his contribution of 28 October 2013, Official Report, the local sustainable transport fund (LSTF), where 94 column 664, what information has appeared in out of 96 projects have a cycling element; a further £178 The Guardian on intelligence matters which the million has been announced for the LSTF for 2015-16. Government objects to on security grounds. [173330] Between 2005 and 2010 the Department spent £140 million on cycling projects and £10 million on Sustainable The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add. Travel Towns, where projects included cycling.
Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION pursuant to the answer of 2 September 2013, Official Report, column 149W, on cycling, what estimate the Security National Transport Model makes of (a) the number of trips made by bicycle and (b) the distance travelled by Mr Watson: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, bicycle in each year until 2035. [173273] Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission how many parliamentary Mr Goodwill: The latest forecasts of road travel, passes are issued to staff working on behalf of the City congestion and emissions in England up to 2040 from of London Remembrancer. [173188] the National Transport Model (NTM) were published John Thurso: The City of London Remembrancer is in Road Traffic Forecasts 2013, available at: one of some 15 “Roll A” agents that work with the https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/road-transport- promoters of private Bills and who have a parliamentary forecasts-2013 pass. No parliamentary passes have been issued to any These forecasts assume that the impact of smarter staff working on behalf of the City of London measures will increase cycling trips by 5% in 2015, 7.5% Remembrancer. in 2025, and 10% in 2035. The resulting levels of cycling trips, and distance, forecast by the NTM are shown in the following table: TRANSPORT Billion Aircraft Forecast year Annual cycle trips Annual cycle miles
Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010 1.2 2.9 Transport what estimate he has made of changes in the 2015 1.4 3.4 number of A350 and Dreamliner aircraft flying into 2020 1.3 3.2 the UK’s regional airports in the next 10 years. 2025 1.3 3.0 [173164] 2030 1.3 3.1 Mr Goodwill: The Department’s aviation forecasting 2035 1.4 3.1 model predicts that there will be 3,000 arrivals at and 2040 1.4 3.1 departures from regional (non-London) UK airports using either Dreamliner or A350 aircraft in 2014. By These forecasts are based on our current understanding 2024 the model predicts that either Dreamliner or A350 of how people make travel choices, the expected path of aircraft will be used on 26,000 arrivals at and departures key drivers of travel demand and current Government from regional (non-London) UK airports. policies. 527W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 528W
East Coast Railway Line contract. The service provided by Agility Trains includes the supply of a fully maintained and serviced train at Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for time indicated by the operator. Transport what estimate he has made of the total value High Speed 2 Railway Line of the maintenance contract for the Inter City Express programme train fleet allocated for service on the east Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for coast main line. [173122] Transport if he will allow a 12 week consultation period for responses to the Environmental Statement Stephen Hammond: The service provided by Agility on the effects of High Speed 2 due to be published with Trains includes the supply of a fully maintained and the hybrid Bill. [173326] serviced train fleet at a time indicated by the operator. There will therefore be no separate maintenance contract Mr Goodwill: The Government is considering the for the Class 800/801 fleet used on east coast main line. consultation process in connection with the Environmental Statement which we expect to table when the hybrid Bill Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport for HS2 phase one is introduced. Parliamentary Standing what estimate he has made of the total cost to the Orders specify a minimum period of 56 days for successful bidder of the east coast main line passenger consultation on the Environmental Statement for hybrid rail franchise. [173237] Bills. This is generous in comparison to other legislation authorising infrastructure projects, with minimum periods Stephen Hammond: Costs incurred by bidders for of only 21 days under the Town and Country Planning franchise competitions are a matter for the companies and 28 days under the Planning Act. concerned. As set out in the recently published prospectus It is reasonable for us to have regard to the fact that for the East Coast Mainline (ECML) the share sale consultation with the public on HS2 has been considerable price for east coast main line (ECML) is expected to be already. In 2013 there have been consultations on the no more than £20 million. draft Environmental Statement and the proposed design The “cost”to the successful bidder in terms of premium/ refinements, along with a further consultation on property subsidy payments and line costs (staff costs etc.) will compensation. A consultation is also under way on the not be known until the winning bid is announced. The route for Phase 2 of the route. This is a significant level Department makes its own assessment of these costs as of consultation which means that those people affected part of the specification of the franchise through a by HS2 are in a very informed position to be able to comparator model. These figures remain commercially respond. In addition, the Environmental Statement is confidential so as not to prejudice the upcoming being deliberately structured to make it easy to access, competition. with a non-technical summary and with information divided geographically in community forum areas. Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what Directly Operated Railways Ltd’s Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport annual expenditure on leasing rolling stock for service what estimate he has made of the cost of power to on the east coast main line has been in each year since support High Speed 2 train services on the basis of 2009-10. [173238] operating at speeds of up to 400kph at 18 trains per hour for up to 20 hours per day. [173327] Stephen Hammond: Directly Operated Railways (DOR) Mr Goodwill: Whilst HS2 will be capable of operating Ltd does not have any contracts for the leasing of 18 services per hour at 400kph, the assumptions on rolling stock. Such contracts are between the East Coast energy use in the HS2 economic case are based on the Main Line Company Ltd (ECML) which is a subsidiary assumed service specification of 16 trains per hour and of DOR and the rolling stock lessors. The amounts with running speeds lower than 400kph. The estimated paid by ECML between 2009-10 and 2012-13 are as cost of energy for operating HS2 trains on the full follows: network over the appraisal period (2026-92) is £6 billion
£ (present value, 2011 prices).
2009-10 131,407,000 Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 85,252,000 Transport what the rate of energy price inflation used 2011-12 85,286,000 for the business case for High Speed 2 is. [173328] 2012-13 86,765,000 1 Mr Goodwill: The HS2 economic case makes use of November 2009 to March 2010. real energy price forecasts produced by the Department Great Western Railway Line for Energy and Climate Change. The average rate of real energy price inflation between now and 2036 is 1.8% per annum; after this point energy costs are assumed John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for constant in real terms. Transport what estimate he has made of the total value of the maintenance contract for the Inter City Express Railways: Franchises programme train fleet allocated for service on the Great Western Line. [173020] Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what safeguards exist to protect the contractual terms Stephen Hammond: There will be no separate and conditions of the workforce when rail passenger maintenance contract for the Class 800/801 fleet used franchises are transferred from the public to the private on Great Western routes because of the nature of the sector through a share sale. [173236] 529W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 530W
Stephen Hammond: Terms and conditions of employment annually carried (a) on the East Coast main line and are a matter for incoming franchisees, as employers. (b) by each of the franchised rail passenger operators The sale of East Coast Main Line Co. Ltd to a private in the UK. [173235] sector franchisee will not, in and of itself, affect employees’ rights or contracts of employment, nor will this involve a transfer of staff to a new employer. Stephen Hammond: The following table shows the Railways: Passengers average number of passenger journeys and passenger kilometres per timetabled train kilometre in 2012-13 for Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for East Coast and the other franchised train operators in Transport how many passengers per train kilometre are the UK.
Average number of passenger journeys and passenger kilometres per timetabled train kilometre: Franchised train operators 2012-13 Average number of Average number of Passenger journeys Passenger kilometres Timetabled train journeys per train passenger kilometres (million) (million) kilometres (million) kilometre per train kilometre
Arriva Trains Wales 29.0 1,154 24.2 1.2 47,6 c2c 37.4 1,009 6.5 5.8 156.3 Chiltern 21.4 1,133 10.7 2.0 106.0 Crosscountry 33.4 3,254 32.6 1.0 99.9 East Coast 19.0 4,934 22.0 0.9 224.7 East Midlands Trains 24.1 2,252 22.2 1.1 101.6 First Capital Connect 106.3 3,638 24.8 4.3 146.6 First Great Western 97.3 5,868 42.8 2.3 137.0 First ScotRail 83.3 2,713 44.4 1.9 61.1 First TransPennine Express 24.9 1,604 17.3 1.4 92.5 Greater Anglia 126.4 4,147 34.0 3.7 121.9 London Midland 60.5 2,241 25.4 2.4 88.1 London Overground 125.3 960 7.6 16.5 126.1 Merseyrail 41.7 612 6.4 6.6 96.2 Northern Rail 89.8 2,122 44.6 2.0 47.6 South West Trains 210.8 5,778 39.4 5.3 146.5 Southeastern 169.3 4,218 38.1 4.4 110.6 Southern 171.4 4,386 37.8 4.5 115.9 Virgin Trains 30.4 5,958 35.8 0.8 166.3 Source: Office of Rail Regulation
Timetabled train kilometres represent the total number Directions. The new regulations are expected to come of train kilometres each train operator would achieve if into force in spring 2015. As part of this process guidance they operated 100% of their timetable, but because such as Local Transport Note 2/95 will be updated in timetables can change and trains can be cancelled or due course, to reflect the revised regulations. may not run their whole route this will not represent the total number of train kilometres actually operated. Note that these figures do not take into account the amount of capacity provided by train operators on each FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE train service. Burma
Roads Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will include Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Burma in the Preventing Sexual Violence Initiative. what assessment he has made of the effects of the [173218] review of Local Transport Note 2/95 on policy and practice of devolved government in Wales and Scotland. Mr Swire: At its outset, the Preventing Sexual Violence [173378] Initiative (PSVI) identified countries, in consultation with the UN and other partners, for initial deployments Mr Goodwill: ‘Local Transport Note 2/95: The by experts including to Bosnia, Libya, the DRC, and Assessment of Pedestrian Crossings’, was published in the Syrian border. Over recent months the initiative has 1995 and was adopted by both Scotland and Wales. It extended to a number of other countries—including gives advice on designing and installing zebra, pelican, Burma. During his visit to the UK, President Thein puffin and toucan crossings and has not been reviewed Sein met with me and the Secretary of State for Foreign since publication. No assessment of its effects on practice and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the in Scotland and Wales has been made. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), and welcomed The Department is currently revising the legislation the initiative. covering pedestrian crossings, the Traffic Signs Regulations We continue to call for an end to the use of sexual and General Directions and the Zebra, Pelican and violence in Burma. At a minimum there must be Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General strengthened accountability and better access to justice 531W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 532W for victims of sexual violence. More widely, tackling Mr Swire: UK missions across Latin America work sexual violence will be central to reducing tensions and closely with the British Council on a number of campaigns the peace process. showcasing British expertise and promoting UK education On the ground, our embassy in Rangoon is looking across the region. For example, in Brazil, the British to incorporate PSVI activities into new and existing embassy is supporting the Council’s four-year programme work. Funding has been recently approved for a project of arts and creative exchange, lasting from the London that will help to improve access to justice for victims, Olympic Games to Rio 2016; in Uruguay, we supported develop community-based preventive mechanisms and the re-opening of the Council’s Office in Montevideo; promote wider legal and policy reforms. and in Mexico, the British Council is playing a key role, alongside the British embassy, in supporting the 2015 Charities Act 2006 Year of the UK in Mexico and Year of Mexico in the UK. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The British Council has ambitious expansion plans and Commonwealth Affairs what reports his within the region. It is active in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Department has laid before each House of Parliament Colombia, Cuba, Mexico, Uruguay and Venezuela and pursuant to section 70(9) of the Charities Act 2006 in is exploring opportunities to develop programmes in 2012-13. [172938] other countries.
Mark Simmonds: The Foreign and Commonwealth Sri Lanka office did not lay any reports before Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of the Charities Act 2006 in the 2012-13 Bob Blackman: To ask the Secretary of State for Session. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has plans to visit Jaffna and the former war zones in the Colombia Wanni region of Sri Lanka. [172850]
Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Swire: The Prime Minister will be visiting the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the north of Sri Lanka during his visit to Sri Lanka to answer of 16 October 2013, Official Report, column attend the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting. 761W,on Colombia, if he will raise with the Colombian The exact details of his itinerary are yet to be confirmed. President the clauses in the trade agreement between The Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Foreign the EU and Colombia relating to human rights, labour and Commonwealth Office Affairs, my right hon. Friend standards and environmental standards and the mechanisms the Member for Richmond-(Yorks) (Mr Hague), and I for monitoring and enforcing those clauses. [173315] will use the visit to Sri Lanka to see the situation on the ground first hand, to meet people on all sides of the Mr Swire: We will continue to engage with the Colombian conflict, and to raise our concerns frankly and directly Government on human rights, labour standards and with the Sri Lankan Government. environmental standards, and alongside EU partners will work with the Colombian Government to bring UK Trade and Investment about full implementation of all parts of the trade agreement. Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whose Energy responsibility it is to ensure that all documents on the UK Trade and Investment website are consistent with Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for overall government policies. [172764] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what costs were incurred by his Department’s estate in respect of (a) Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf gas and (b) electricity supply in the 2012-13 financial of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. year. [172793] Overall responsibility for the UKTI website rests with UK Trade and Investment Marketing. Content is Mr Lidington: For the financial year 2012-13, the created by staff throughout UK Trade & Investment. Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s financial management system shows the FCO incurred electricity costs of Western Sahara £2,745,098 and gas costs of £41,167. This answer relates to the UK estate comprising of King Charles Street, Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Old Admiralty Building, Lancaster House, Carlton Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) if he will (a) Gardens, Hanslope Park and Northgate House. It would raise with the Moroccan ambassador and (b) instruct incur a disproportionate cost to source this information the UK ambassador in Rabat to investigate the injuries from our network of posts as this information is held caused by police and security forces when breaking up locally. demonstrations in El Aaiun, Western Sahara on 19 October 2013; [172975] Latin America (2) if he will (a) raise with the Moroccan ambassador and (b) instruct the UK ambassador in Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Rabat to investigate allegations that Saharawi homes Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is were broken into and ransacked by Moroccan security taking to enhance the work of the British Council in forces following demonstrations in El Aaiun, Western Latin America; and if he will make a statement. [172804] Sahara on 19 October 2013. [172976] 533W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 534W
Hugh Robertson: We are aware of reports of this John Healey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer nature. We regularly emphasise to Morocco the importance pursuant to the statement by the Chief Secretary to the of full respect for human rights in Western Sahara, Treasury of 22 October 2013, Official Report, column including when policing demonstrations. We have 9WS, on infrastructure guarantees, what the criteria are encouraged Morocco to ensure that transparent for projects which have agreed to be listed on the gov.uk investigations take place when there are allegations website; and which of the schemes named in the statement against the security forces. The former Under-Secretary have secured an agreed Government guarantee to date. of State, my hon. Friend the Member for North East [172821] Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), discussed this issue during his visit to Rabat last month. Danny Alexander: Projects are listed on the gov.uk website when they have prequalified under the UK Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Guarantees scheme and no commercial reasons have Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is been provided by project sponsors objecting to the on establishing a UN mechanism to monitor the project’s disclosure. human rights situation in Western Sahara. [172977] Drax Power has been issued with a guarantee under the scheme. Hugh Robertson: We will continue to make clear, When other projects receive a guarantee the scheme including in discussions at the UN Security Council the status will be changed and Parliament will be notified as importance of full respect for human rights in both required under the Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Western Sahara and the refugee camps at Tindouf. Act 2012.
John Healey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the statement by the Chief Secretary to the TREASURY Treasury of 22 October 2013, Official Report, column 9WS, on infrastructure guarantees, in which region High Speed 2 Railway Line each of the 40 projects pre-qualified for the UK Guarantees scheme will be developed. [172822]
Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the Danny Alexander: No particular region is being targeted Exchequer if he will publish all correspondence between for the development of the scheme. The legislation, his Department and the Welsh Government in relation Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Act 2012, to expenditure on High Speed 2 and associated Barnett underpinning the UK Guarantees scheme extends to consequentials. [172698] projects from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Danny Alexander: There has been no correspondence between the Treasury and Welsh Government Ministers A guarantee will only be offered subject to the satisfactory on High Speed 2. Barnett consequentials will be determined completion of the necessary due diligence and final at the spending round. ministerial approval.
Mrs Gillan: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer National Insurance Contributions: New Businesses whether the Welsh Government has received a share of an estimated £832 million to be spent on the High Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Speed 2 project by the Department for Transport in (1) how many firms have (a) applied for and (b) taken 2015-16. [172865] up the regional employer national insurance contributions holiday; and what amount has been claimed by such Danny Alexander: At the spending round in June, the firms in each month since December 2012; [173194] Welsh Government received a capital consequential of (2) how many firms have taken up the regional employer £84.5 million. This was based on a £2 billion increase in national insurance contributions holiday since that scheme’s the total Transport capital budget. The Barnett formula introduction; and how much has been claimed by each calculation used the framework set out at the spending such firm. [173196] review in 2010, which set out 73.1% of changes in Transport spending are subject to Barnett consequential Mr Gauke: The NICs Holiday attracted just over for the Welsh Government. The framework is expected 26,000 applicants over a three year period. The latest to be updated at the next full spending review, as is available data shows that only around 600 have been usual practice, and will reflect the latest information on unsuccessful. departmental spending. Further information about the NICs Holiday scheme is published in a factsheet available on: Infrastructure http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/nics-hol.htm The factsheet only covers the period from the start of John Healey: To ask the Chancellor of the the scheme to December 2012. Exchequer what the value of each (a) project and (b) Monthly breakdown of the amounts claimed by guarantee is for each infrastructure scheme for which a employers is not available. The claims are made on UK Guarantee has been contracted. [172817] annual basis using end of year claim forms. The latest available data shows that around £60 million of NICs Danny Alexander: I refer the right hon. Member to relief has been received by employers in total. The my written ministerial statement of 22 October 2013. figure does not include claims for 2013-14 tax year. 535W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 536W
HOME DEPARTMENT Asylum Antisocial Behaviour: Young People Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department how many legacy asylum Home Department (1) what information her applications are still outstanding; how many have been Department holds on the number of Mosquito devices resolved in each of the last 12 months; and how many in operation in (a) England and (b) each London staff are allocated to this task. [168341] borough; [171789] (2) what arrangements her Department has in place Mr Harper [holding answer 12 September 2013]: The for monitoring the prevalence of Mosquito devices in Home Office provides quarterly updates to the Home England. [171790] Affairs Select Committee on the progress of the Legacy cohort of cases under consideration by the Older Live Norman Baker [holding answer 21 October 2013]: Cases Unit (formerly the Case Audit and Assurance The Home Office does not hold information on the Unit). This is the ring fenced cohort of older asylum number of Mosquito devices in operation. Nor does it cases that was passed to CAAU when the Case Resolution have any arrangements in place for monitoring the Directorate closed in March 2011. prevalence of Mosquito devices in England, though I Table A was included in the letter from David Wood am asking the national policing lead for anti-social and Sarah Rapson to the right hon. Member for Leicester behaviour which information they may hold on their East (Keith Vaz), Chair of the Committee on 10 July deployment. 2013 as Annex A. The Mosquito device is a commercial product and it We expect to provide a further update of this data to is not endorsed by the Home Office. the Home Affairs Select Committee when it next considers I understand that the national policing lead for antisocial the work of the Older Live Cases Unit in October 2013. behaviour has decided not to support the use of these We will take this opportunity to provide a more devices. comprehensive breakdown of the conclusions by month.
Table A1 (figures are rounded to the nearest 500) Net number of cases at the Number of cases that were beginning of the quarter (31 concluded and left the live Number of cases that Net number of cases at the December 2012) cohort14 entered the live cohort15 end of the quarter
Asylum live cohort 33,500 1,600 700 32,600 Migration live cohort 7,000 200 700 7,500 Total live cohort 40,500 1,800 1,400 40,100 1 The information has been provided from local management information and is not a National Statistic. As such it should be treated as provisional and therefore subject to change. 14 Concluded is defined as per the Agency’s 2006 definition “Grant of permanent or temporary residency, voluntary or enforced removal, found to have beengiven status before July 2006, found to be a duplicate record, deceased.” 15 This is a closed cohort of people. Additions to the cohort therefore are re-activations or conclusions from the Data Quality cohort.
There were 224 Full Time Equivalent (FTE) staff carried over on the card into the following week. Any employed to work on this cohort of cases at the end of unspent excess over the £5 limit is returned to the Home quarter one 2013. This figure includes agency staff. Office. Total annual values returned over the past three years Asylum: Finance are:
Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the £ Home Department (1) if she will provide information 2011 106,638 on using the Azure card in languages other than 2012 103,346 English; [170039] 2013 1, 2101,628 (2) how much unspent money was recouped from 1 Year to date Azure cards in each of the last three years for which 2 This data is (a) derived from management information as supplied by the support payments contractor, Sodexo Ltd; and (b) collated and held as local MI records are available. [170050] 1 October 2013.
Mr Harper [holding answer 10 October 2013]: The Corruption Azure card is issued to failed asylum seekers supported under the provisions of section 4 of the Immigration Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for the and Asylum Act 1999. Home Department how many full-time equivalent staff Home Office officials are looking at ways of providing at what level of seniority will work on corruption information about the card in languages other than policy in her Department following the establishment English. Funding is already provided to voluntary sector of the National Crime Agency. [171881] organisations to advise asylum seekers and failed asylum seekers about the support available to them. Norman Baker [holding answer 22 October 2013]: The card can be used at supermarkets to buy food There is a range of policy teams in the Home Office and other essential items to the value of £35.39 per who will be working on different aspects of corruption week. Unless the person has children only £5 can be policy, from work in the Police Transparency Unit on 537W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 538W police integrity, to the work of the Strategic Centre for Number of businesses receiving a Organised Crime to deliver the programme of activity maximum penalty of £10,000 per set out in the Serious and Organised Crime Strategy, to illegal worker the work of the Departmental Security Unit to tackle and prevent possible corruption in the Home Office and 2010-11 3 Home Office agencies. It is not possible to provide a 2011-12 3 specific number. 2012-13 5 2013 YTD 2 Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for the The maximum civil penalty per illegal worker is £10,000. Home Department how many full-time equivalent staff The size of the civil penalty depends on the type of eligibility in the National Crime Agency will be working on checks that the employer has made on its workers, the bribery and corruption; and what the level of seniority number of times the Home Office has issued a warning of each staff member will be. [172181] or imposed a civil penalty on the employer, and the extent to which the employer has co-operated with us. Norman Baker [holding answer 24 October 2013]: The figures are based on civil penalties served to There is a range of officers in the National Crime Agency employers within the UK for employing illegal migrant working on issues relating to bribery and corruption, workers under section 15 of the Immigration, Asylum from the work of the Economic Crime Command and Nationality Act 2006, at the initial stage of the civil overseeing the law enforcement response, to the work of penalty process. the Intelligence Hub in leading on the assessment of Following receipt of a civil penalty, employers have bribery and corruption by organised crime. Drawing on the right to submit grounds of objection against the the operational capabilities across the whole of the imposition of the penalty within 28 days and lodge an National Crime Agency will result in increased capacity appeal against the penalty decision to a county court. to deal with the full range of these threats as required. It Therefore penalties may subsequently be reduced, cancelled is therefore not possible to provide a specific number. or re-issued at the objection and appeal stages. Immigrants: Detainees Entry Clearances: Fees and Charges Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate she has made of the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 14 October cost of detaining an individual in an immigration 2013, Official Report, column 467W,on entry clearances: detention centre for one year. [168092] fees and charges, what discussions the Government is having with Commonwealth countries which levy Mr Harper [holding answer 9 September 2013]: The substantial visa charges on UK citizens entering their estimated average direct annual cost of holding a person territory, to seek an equalisation of such charges across in our immigration detention facilities for 2013-14 is different jurisdictions. [172075] £37,230. Immigration Mr Harper: The Home Office is not having discussions with Commonwealth countries about the visa charges Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for the they levy on UK citizens entering their territory, nor Home Department how many cases have been completed about equalising such charges across different jurisdictions. by the Older Live Cases Unit since its establishment We have made provisions that would allow such within (a) three months, (b) six months and (c) one year arrangements to be reflected in our immigration and of the initial referral; and if she will make a statement. visa fees in the Immigration Bill, which is currently [171293] before Parliament. Mr Harper [holding answer 17 October 2013]: The Home Office holds this information only at a level of Illegal Immigrants: Employment individual case files. Therefore, providing the information requested would incur disproportionate cost. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the average fine currently imposed Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 on rogue businesses employing illegal immigrants is; and how many rogue businesses have been subject to a Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the maximum penalty fine in each of the last three years. Home Department how many people were employed in [172080] the helpline sections of the Border Agency dealing with sections 15 to 25 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 in October 2013. [172050] Mr Harper [holding answer 23 October 2013]: Between 29 February 2008 and 30 September 2013 the average Mr Harper: Advice on the prevention of illegal working value of a civil penalty served on an employer was is managed through a Home Office Contact Centre in £9,123. Sheffield. On 17 October 2013, there were 45 full-time The information relating to businesses subject to a equivalent team members in the Sheffield Contact Centre maximum penalty in each of the last three years is in the providing and supporting customer service across a following table: variety of call and e-mail services. It is not possible 539W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 540W to give the exact number of staff devoted to work on (2) how many prosecutions of employers there have section 15 to 25 of the Immigration, Asylum and been under sections 15 to 25 of the Immigration, Asylum Nationality Act 2006 as this would vary according to and Nationality Act 2006 since May 2010. [172070] call and e-mail demand across all channels of contact on any given day. The figures provided are not national statistics but Mr Harper [holding answer 22 October 2013]: Since are based on provisional management information and May 2010 until the end of 2012, 10 offenders have been may be subject to change. sentenced at all courts for the offence of knowingly employing illegal workers under section 21 of the Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006. Of Home Department (1) what the (a) maximum and (b) these, two offenders received the maximum sentence minimum sentence that the courts have imposed under available for the offence—in both cases, sentenced at the sections 15 to 25 of the Immigration, Asylum and Crown court to a two-year custodial sentence. There is Nationality Act 2006 is since May 2010; [172068] no minimum sentence for this offence.
Defendants proceeded against at magistrates court, and offenders found guilty and sentenced at all courts for employing a person knowing that they are an adult subject to immigration control who has not been granted leave to enter or remain, or whose leave to remain is invalid etc.1, England and Wales, May 2010 to December 20122,3,4 Offence Outcome May 2010 to December 2012
Employing a person knowing that they are an adult subject to immigration control Proceeded against 10 who has not been granted leave to enter or remain, or whose leave to remain is invalid etc. Found guilty 9 Sentenced 10 of which: Absolute discharge 0 Conditional discharge 0 Fine 5 Community sentence 0 Suspended sentences 2 Otherwise dealt with 0 Immediate custody 3 of which: Maximum sentence5 2 1 An offence under S21 Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, which commenced in February 2008. 2 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 The number of offenders sentenced can differ from those found guilty as it may be the case that a defendant found guilty in a particular year, and committed for sentence at the Crown court, may be sentenced in the following year. 5 In both cases, the offender was sentenced at the Crown court to a two-year custodial sentence. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.
Immigration: Stratford Maidenhead (Mrs May), responded to my right hon. Friend on 18 September 2013. Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many staff were involved in her National Crime Agency Department’s immigration status checks in Stratford; and what the cost to the public purse was. [167346] Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many full-time equivalent staff Mr Harper: Six immigration officers were deployed will be part of the National Crime Agency’s overseas for two hours on the operation and no overtime was network. [171584] incurred. Members: Correspondence Norman Baker [holding answer 21 October 2013]: As at Wednesday 16 October 2013, the National Crime Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State Agency’s international network comprised 134 officers. for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of Police: Unmanned Air Vehicles 15 October 2013, Official Report, column 649W, on Members: Correspondence, when she plans to reply to the letters sent to her on 19 July, 29 August and 9 September Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2013 by the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Home Department pursuant to the answer of 18 July Malling regarding the case of Ms Rene Chung. [172266] 2013, Official Report, column 912W, if her Department will collate and hold information centrally on the use of Mr Harper: The Secretary of State for the Home unmanned aerial vehicles by police services in England Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for and Wales. [R] [172963] 541W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 542W
Damian Green: No. Use of unmanned aerial vehicles ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS is an operational matter for chief constables. Any use would need to comply with existing Civil Aviation Authority Flood Control regulations. Covert use by a public authority likely to obtain private information, including by any law Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for enforcement agency, would be subject to authorisation Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he intends under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. to (a) publish and (b) respond to the findings of the That Act requires that covert investigatory techniques independent evaluation of the Partnership Funding are used only if they are necessary and proportionate approach for flood funding commissioned by his for purposes such as preventing or detecting crime or in Department. [172978] the interests of national security. It makes deployment subject to independent overview, inspection and right to Dan Rogerson: The DEFRA commissioned evaluation redress in case of individual complaint. of the Partnership Funding approach is due to be published by the end of the year. The Department will Regulation consider the findings of the research on receipt. There is currently no timetable or plan for a formal response. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the title is of each regulation Redundancy her Department (a) introduced and (b) revokedin(i) 2010, (ii) 2011, (iii) 2012 and (iv) 2013 to date; and if Sir Alan Beith: To ask the Secretary of State for she will make a statement. [165915] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment he has made of the likelihood of job losses at his Mr Harper: The Home Office Regulations made since Department’s Alnwick office under the Next Generation the General Election in 2010 to date which have been Shared Services Programme; and what recent discussions (a) introduced (b) revoked are set out in the table he has held with contractors on the work carried out at which will be placed in the House Library. that office. [171669] The table does not include regulations made during this period which, although processed within the Home Dan Rogerson [holding answer 21 October 2013]: The Office, related to the Government Equalities Office. Cabinet Office is leading a project to create a Shared That Office is no longer located within the Home Office. Service Centre on a joint venture partnership basis It is conceivable that other regulations have lapsed or formed from the existing Shared Service centres of been revoked as a result of primary legislation, but we DWP, DEFRA, the Environment Agency and BIS. hold no records of such cases. As part of that process, my officials have engaged in discussions on the current service provision, and on Theft: Motor Vehicles wider commercial matters to enable a contract for the Independent Shared Services Centre 2 (ISSC2) to be negotiated. Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what guidance her Department This has included information about the current DEFRA gives to the Association of Chief Police Officers and Shared Service Centre operations based in York and the Association of British Insurers on responsibility for Alnwick. Staff have been made aware that there will be meeting recovery costs of stolen vehicles. [172669] some site consolidation. I have been kept informed of progress but would not Damian Green: A provision in the Road Traffic expect to participate in the commercial negotiations. Regulation Act 1984 empowers the police, in certain defined circumstances, to remove and recover vehicles. Trapping This work is carried out by contracted recovery operators. The Home Office has not issued any guidance to the Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for police on responsibility for meeting recovery costs, as Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to this is an operational matter for the police. The Home the answer to the hon. Member for Penistone and Office has also not issued any guidance to the Association Stocksbridge, of 25 April 2013, Official Report, column of British Insurers as this is a matter for their commercial 1237W,on trapping, when he will publish the Government’s decision. findings; and if he will make statement. [172862]
West Mercia Police Federation George Eustice: We are currently considering the findings of the report and Ministers expect to meet Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for the stakeholders shortly to discuss their views. Home Department what the cost to the public purse was of time spent by police officers conducting West Unmanned Air Vehicles Mercia Police Federation business during the working day in the latest period for which figures are available. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for [172731] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the answer of 14 October 2013, Official Report, column 457W, Damian Green [holding answer 29 October 2013]: on unmanned air vehicles, whether non-core functions This information is not held centrally. The management or agencies of his Department have used unmanned of facility time is a matter for West Mercia police. aerial vehicles over the last five years. [R] [172966] 543W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 544W
Dan Rogerson: The Centre for Environment Fisheries (2) what procedure should occur if a county court and Aquaculture Science, Food and Environment Research declines to follow a practice direction; [172540] Agency, Environment Agency, Natural England and (3) on how many occasions a County Court has the Royal Botanic Gardens have used unmanned aerial refused to follow a practice direction in each of the last vehicles for surveying work and photography over the three years. [173212] last five years. Mr Vara: The extent to which any of the provisions in a practice direction should be applied or disapplied in SCOTLAND any individual case within a county court is a matter for Charities Act 2006 the discretion of the judge, taking into consideration the circumstances of the case. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Judges are required under Civil Procedure Rules to Scotland what reports his Department has laid before ensure that cases are conducted justly. They must bear each House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of this in mind when applying and interpreting both the the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172948] Rules and the supplementary guidance such as practice directions. David Mundell: Section 70(9) of the Charities Act In dealing with a case justly, a judge must: ensure that 2006 applies only to England and Wales. Therefore both parties are on an equal footing; save expense; deal neither the Secretary of State for Scotland nor I are with cases proportionately in respect of the value of the required to lay reports before each House of Parliament case, the importance and complexity of the case and the in relation to Scottish charities. financial position of each party; and ensure that cases are dealt with expeditiously and fairly; and that the Sovereignty appropriate share of the court’s resources are allotted. John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for If a party is dissatisfied with the decision of a judge Scotland what steps he is taking to inform workers in there is certain action they can take depending on the the defence industry about the potential effect of circumstances of the case. They may make an application to the court, with reasons, to stay (halt proceedings) or Scottish independence on jobs. [172851] vary a decision made by the judge. Alternatively, at the conclusion of proceedings or afterwards, they may request David Mundell: In order to inform and support the permission to appeal against the decision. Such an debate on Scotland’s future, the Government is undertaking application or appeal may be opposed by the-other a programme of analysis examining how Scotland party(s) in the matter. contributes to and benefits from being part of the UK, and how the rest of the UK. benefits from its partnership As this is a matter for judicial discretion, we do not with Scotland. hold information on how many occasions a county On 7 October, the UK Government published the court applies or disapplies a practice direction. “Scotland analysis: Defence” paper. This paper discussed the implications of independence on the defence sector. Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice This included information on the defence industry and what action is open to litigants in the event of a county jobs based in Scotland. court being unwilling to investigate a possible false statement. [172541] John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to inform oil and gas Mr Vara: A party, with permission, may make an workers about the potential effect of Scottish application to commence contempt of court proceedings independence on jobs. [172852] in respect of any statement made in a county court which the party believes to be false. David Mundell: In order to inform and support the The court may of its own initiative direct a matter to debate on Scotland’s future, the Government is undertaking the Attorney-General with a request that the Attorney- a programme of analysis examining how Scotland General consider whether proceedings for contempt of contributes to and benefits from being part of the UK, court should be brought. Before making any such direction and how the rest of the UK benefits from its partnership the court will have regard to the need to deal with the with Scotland. case justly and the concept of proportionality. The programme has published seven papers to date. The papers have analysed key economic, legal and Criminal Proceedings defence issues. Future papers on further economic and wider policy issues will be released this year and through 2014 in the lead up to the referendum. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) what the average time taken is for each type of Class D criminal offence to reach court; [173054] JUSTICE (2) what the average time taken is for each type of Class E criminal offence to reach court; [173055] County Courts (3) what the average time taken is for each type of Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Class C criminal offence to reach court; [173056] (1) under what circumstances is it acceptable for a (4) what the average time taken is for each type of county court to disregard a practice direction; [172537] Class D criminal offence to reach court. [173058] 545W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 546W
Mr Vara: The available information required to answer Mr Harper: I have been asked to reply on behalf of this question is currently being collated. I will write to the Home Department. the hon. Member as soon as it is available. A copy will For the week commencing 9 September 2013, there be placed in the House Library. were 979 immigration detainees in prisons. Please note that the data includes a small number of Magistrates individuals who have never served a custodial sentence. These individuals present specific risk factors that indicate Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice they pose a serious risk of harm to the public or to the what proportion of justices of the peace were (a) male, good order of an Immigration Removal Centre (IRC), (b) female, (c) black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) including the safety of staff and other detainees, which educated at the University of Oxford or University cannot be managed within the regime applied in IRCs. of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group In-order to extract the small number of cases who universities, (f) educated at all other universities, (g) have not served a custodial sentence would incur a solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel in disproportionate cost as this would involve looking at each year since 2003. [173100] individual records.
Mr Vara: A more diverse judiciary is important in Work Capability Assessment: Appeals retaining the public’s confidence and trust in justice, and better reflecting the society it serves. This Government Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice has made a number of changes through the Crime and what the average time between submission of an appeal Courts Act 2013 that we believe will promote judicial to Department for Work and Pensions on a work capability diversity. We have introduced part time working in the decision until a decision is issued by HM Courts and senior courts, including the Supreme Court, we have Tribunals Service has been since September 2011. enabled the equal merit provision for judicial appointments [172308] to allow protected characteristics to be taken into account where two applicants are of equal merit, and a statutory Mr Vara: The First-tier Tribunal—Social Security duty for the Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice to and Child Support, administered by HM Courts and encourage judicial diversity. Tribunals Service (HMCTS) hears appeals against Data on the gender and ethnicity of magistrates are Department for Work and Pensions’ decisions on held by the Judicial Office and has been published since entitlement to employment and support allowance, decisions 2008. Data for 2003 to 2007 will require extraction from in which the work capability assessment is a key factor, Judicial Office’s magistrates’ database. I will write to rather than appeals against WCA decisions themselves. the right hon. Member when it becomes available. HMCTS does not, therefore, hold the information The Judicial Office does not collect data on the requested. educational background of magistrates, or whether they are solicitors, barristers or Queen’s Counsel. Gender and ethnicity data from 2008 to 2013 is available as follows: DEFENCE 2013 data http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/statistics/ Armed Conflict: Libya magistrates-statistics 2012 data Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ how many investigations his Department has carried statistics/magistrates-statistics/magistrates-in-post-2012 out into reported civilian casualties that might have involved British assets during the NATO campaign in 2011 data Libya. [R] [172868] http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ statistics/magistrates-statistics/magistrates-in-post-2011 Mr Francois: The NATO operations in Libya in 2011 2010 data were committed to enforcing the UN mandate to protect http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ civilians. As the Government stated at the time, we statistics/magistrates-statistics/magistrates-in-post-2010 regret any loss to civilian life; operations were only 2009 data conducted against legitimate military targets and the utmost care was taken to seek to avoid civilian casualties http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ statistics/magistrates-statistics/magistrates-in-post-2009 at all times. 2008 data All allegations of civilian casualties involving UK forces are thoroughly investigated. However, verification http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ is often hindered by the complexity and risk that would statistics/magistrates-statistics/magistrates-in-post-2008 be involved in collecting robust data. This was particularly the case for operations in Libya, where an absence of Prisoners: Foreign Nationals UK ground forces meant contemporaneous verification from within the country was practically impossible. Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for The Ministry of Defence is satisfied that all UK Justice how many foreign national prisoners who have assets that were involved in the NATO campaign operated completed their sentences are resident in prisons in the in accordance with the Law of Armed Conflict, the UN UK. [168870] Security Council Resolution and UK Rules of Engagement. 547W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 548W
Billing Over the last few years there has been a gradual transfer of MOD owned frameworks and contracts to these Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence arrangements. what the average cost to his Department was of processing the payment of an invoice in the latest period for which Gibraltar figures are available; and what proportion of invoices settled in that period his Department paid (a) electronically Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) by cheque. [162630] Defence what role the UK military base in Gibraltar played in Operation Ellamy. [172144] Mr Francois: The number of individual invoices paid electronically or by cheque is not held centrally, and Mr Francois: A number of the Royal Navy and Royal could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Fleet Auxiliary vessels supporting Operation Ellamy The proportion of total payments made electronically spent time in Gibraltar for refuelling and resupply, as is and by cheque during financial year 2012-13 was 99.41% normal for UK ships transiting into and out of the and 0.59 % respectively. Mediterranean. Information regarding the average cost to pay an Military Bases: Northern Ireland invoice is currently being collated as part of a pan- Government benchmarking exercise. I will write to my hon. Friend as soon as it is available. Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many civilians died in each military Substantive answer from Anna Soubry to Mike Freer: establishment in Northern Ireland between 1 April and My predecessor (Mark Francois) undertook to write to you in 30 September 2013; what the cause was of each death; answer to your Parliamentary Question about bill payments on 4 and if he will make a statement; [173296] July 2013 (Official Report, column 777W-778W). The average cost of processing an invoice through the Ministry (2) how many civilians died in each military of Defence (MOD) Bills system for financial year 2012-13 was establishment in Northern Ireland in each of the last £1.79. The MOD has recently participated in a central Government five years; what the cause was of each death; and if he benchmarking exercise and this data has been taken from the will make a statement. [173297] confirmed position. Dr Murrison: None. Energy Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for (1) how many soldiers died in each military establishment Defence how much his Department spent on (a) gas in Northern Ireland between 1 April 2013 and 30 September and (b) electricity in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12. 2013; what the cause was of each death; and if he will [172776] make a statement; [173298] (2) how many soldiers died in each military establishment Mr Dunne: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer given in Northern Ireland in each of the last five years; what by my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and the cause was of each death; and if he will make a Wickford (Mr Francois), to the hon. Member for Plymouth, statement. [173299] Moor View (Alison Seabeck) on 30 January 2013, Official Report, columns 804-05W. Mr Francois: Official data is only currently released up to 31 December 2012. During this period six Army Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for personnel have died on four military establishments in Defence which company supplied (a) gas and (b) Northern Ireland. The establishments are Masserene electricity to his Department in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) Barracks, Antrim; Alexander Barracks, Aldergrove; 2011-12. [172780] Abercorn Barracks, Ballykinler; and Kinnegar Logistics Base. Mr Dunne: Suppliers of gas and electricity to the Due to the small numbers of personnel involved the Ministry of Defence (MOD) are shown in the following breakdown by each year and the location of each death table: has not been provided. This is to prevent the inadvertent disclosure of individual identities which could cause Location/utility 2010-11 suppliers 2011-12 suppliers upset and distress to relatives, to whom the MOD has a residual duty of care. This is in line with our usual UK Mainland—Gas Total Gas and Power Total Gas and Power policy in providing statistics. UK Mainland— SSE Energy British Gas SSE Energy British Gas Electricity We are aware of a further death at Ballykinler Barracks in 2013, although this will not be included in official Northern Ireland— Firmus Energy Airtricity Firmus Energy Airtricity statistics until they are updated in March 2014. Gas The causes of death for the six personnel are as Northern Ireland— Total Energy Viridian Viridian Energy Electricity Energy follows: One person died due to diseases of the circulatory system. Overseas locations are subject to local supply One person died due to other disease related conditions. arrangements. One person died that was given a suicide or open verdict. In line with Cabinet Office policy, the MOD now Two people died due to violent causes. utilises Government Procurement Service frameworks One person died, the official cause of which is subject to the to leverage greater buying power across government. outcome of the coroner’s inquest. 549W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 550W
The causes of death have been presented in alignment Mr Dunne: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I with the National Statistics publication: Deaths in the gave on 31 October 2012, Official Report, column 297W, UK Regular Armed Forces. to my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti). No further Reaper Remotely Military Exercises Piloted Air Systems have been taken permanently out of use. Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for what reasons his Department decided Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence against purchasing land next to its Cape Wrath training with reference to the answer to the hon. Member for range; and what costs were incurred in making that Birmingham, Yardley of 25 March 2013, Official Report, decision. [173282] column 939W,on unmanned aerial vehicles, what income his Department receives from the leasing of RAF Dr Murrison: The Ministry of Defence decided against Croughton and RAF Molesworth to the United States. purchasing the land next to Cape Wrath due to a [R] [172873] number of reasons, including concerns over access, a sitting tenant and the potential listing of a building on Mr Francois: The Ministry of Defence does not site. charge the United States to use RAF Croughton and No costs were incurred in making this decision. RAF Molesworth; rather they are made available to the US under the terms of the NATO Status of Forces Pensions Agreement of 1951.
Gemma Doyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence (1) whether the Government review of the with reference to the answer to the hon. Member for MOD Police and Defence Fire and Rescue Service will Moray of 3 September 2012, Official Report, column take into account the physical implications of a higher 72W,on unmanned aerial vehicles, what the total budget retirement age for MDP and DFRS officers; [173372] for the Unmanned Air Systems Capability Development Centre will be in the next three financial years; and what (2) whether the Government review of the MOD proportion of such costs will be met by contributions in Police and Defence Fire and Rescue Service pensions kind by industry. [R] [172875] will include analysis of the effect of bringing officers’ pension age in line with Home Office officers on those joining the MDP in the future. [173373] Mr Dunne: The Unmanned Air Systems Capability Development Centre (UAS CDC) is still in its two-year Dr Murrison: The Ministry of Defence is currently pilot phase, running until the end of this financial year. preparing a report that will be laid before Parliament by The pilot is based around existing facilities and funding 24 December 2013. It will consider the likely effect of with a small management team at Ministry of Defence section 10 of the Public Service Pensions Act: (MOD) Boscombe Down. on the health and well being of members of the Defence Fire The case for an enduring capability within the existing and Rescue Service and the Ministry of Defence Police; weapons evaluation and capability assurance portfolio on the ability of the Defence Fire and Rescue Service and the is in progress and details, including the budget for the Ministry of Defence Police to continue to meet operational next four financial years as part of the Long Term requirements, and Partnering Agreement with QinetiQ, will be available in the extent to which members of the Defence Fire and Rescue spring 2014. The cost of operating these elements from Service and the Ministry of Defence Police are likely to take April 2014 is subject to ongoing negotiation with industry; early retirement in consequence of section 10 (and on the I am therefore not in a position to release details of the consequences of taking early retirement for the persons taking total budget allocated at this stage. There will also be it and the taxpayer). contributions in kind from MOD, industry and academia that have not yet been fully defined. Unmanned Air Vehicles Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Romford Defence how many trained and operational unmanned of 10 June 2013, Official Report, column 18W, on aerial vehicle (UAV) pilots there have been in the Army unmanned air vehicles, how many tactical assessments since 2004; and in which countries those pilots have have been carried out on unmanned aerial vehicles since flown UAVs. [R] [172870] October 2007; and if he will place copies of those assessments in the Library. [R] [172959] Mr Francois: I will write to the hon. Member with the information requested. Mr Francois: Tactical analysis and assessment is a Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for continuous process at all levels of command; tactics Defence pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member and operating procedures are reviewed continually to for Gillingham and Rainham of 31 October 2012, ensure they adapt to changing threats and remain Official Report, column 297W, on unmanned aerial operationally effective. vehicles, how many unmanned aerial vehicles have been I am withholding all detailed tactical analysis undertaken lost or damaged in such a way that they have been by the UK Reaper Force as its disclosure would or taken permanently out of use since their introduction would be likely to, prejudice the capability, effectiveness by the RAF. [R] [172872] or security of the armed forces. 551W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 552W
However, the ongoing conduct and broad scope of The staff support costs attributable to 39 Squadron tactics utilised by all UK forces on Op Herrick has been and 13 Squadron for financial year 2012-13 were some routinely scrutinised during inquiries undertaken by the £14 million in total. House of Commons Defence Committee. Unmanned Air Vehicles: Afghanistan Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 12 September 2013, Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 798W, on unmanned aerial Defence what proportion of targeting decisions for the vehicles, if he will place a copy of the current operating UK unmanned aerial vehicles in Afghanistan have procedures developed for the UK Reaper Squadrons in been based on pattern of life analysis. [R] [172866] the Library. [R] [172960] Mr Francois: Strikes are always prosecuted in accordance with the Law of Armed Conflict and UK Rules of Mr Francois: No. I am withholding details of the Engagement. Targets are always positively identified as operating procedures for UK Reaper Squadrons as its legitimate military objectives before strikes are authorised disclosure would or would be likely to, prejudice the by a trained pilot. Pattern of life is just one part of the capability, effectiveness or security of the armed forces. process that achieves a positive identification. I am withholding further details as their disclosure would, or Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for would be likely to, prejudice the capability, effectiveness Defence pursuant to the answer of 12 September 2013, or security of the armed forces. Official Report, column 798W, on unmanned aerial vehicles, which other aspects of the Reaper Agreement Unmanned Air Vehicles: Syria are currently the subject of review. [R] [172961] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Francois: All aspects of the Reaper Agreement Defence what discussions officials of his Department are maintained under continuous review. have had with their EU counterparts on the supply of armed and unarmed unmanned aerial vehicles to the Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Syrian opposition. [R] [172869] pursuant to the answer of 12 September 2013, Official Report, column 798W, on unmanned aerial vehicles, Mr Francois: Ministry of Defence officials have had what the (a) location, (b) cost and (c) rank of personnel no discussions with their EU counterparts on the supply is of each UK Reaper Force Squadron. [R] [172962] of armed or unarmed unmanned aerial vehicles to the Syrian opposition. Mr Francois: The UK Reaper Force Squadrons are based at Creech Air Force Base, USA (39 Squadron) and RAF Waddington (13 Squadron) in the UK. WORK AND PENSIONS The location and ranks of personnel are shown in the following table: Access to Elected Office for Disabled People Fund
Service and rank Creech—USA RAF Waddington—UK Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) how many people have applied RAF to the Access to Elected Office for Disabled People Senior Aircraftsman Yes Yes (SAC) Fund to date; and how many such applications have [172719] Corporal (Cpl) Yes Yes been successful; Sergeant (Sgt) Yes Yes (2) whether grants from the Access to Elected Office Flight Sergeant (FS) Yes Yes for Disabled People Fund can be applied for to pay Warrant Officer Yes Yes upfront costs of participating in a political party’s (WO) selection process; [172720] Flying Officer (Fg Yes Yes Off) (3) how many people who were recipients of Access Flight Lieutenant Yes Yes to Elected Office for Disabled People Fund grants have (Fit Lt) stood for office; and for which political party since the Squadron Leader Yes Yes Fund’s establishment. [172721] (Sqn Ldr) Wing Commander Yes Yes Mrs Grant: I have been asked to reply on behalf of (Wg Cdr) the Government Equalities Office. Royal Navy The Access to Elected Office for Disabled People Petty Officer (PO) No Yes Fund helps disabled people seeking elected office with Chief Petty Officer Yes Yes (CPO) any additional disability-related cost they incur as a Lieutenant (Lt) Yes No result of either participating in a political party’s selection process or standing for election, including standing as an independent candidate, for example paying for sign British Army language interpretation or meeting extra travel costs. Corporal (Cpl) Yes No It is possible for applicants to have up-front costs Sergeant (Sgt) Yes No paid, although grant payments are generally processed Captain (Capt) Yes No in arrears. 553W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 554W
Child Benefit the relevant regulations. Setting an expectation relating to the volume of cases could send the wrong message to decision makers. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what criteria his Department uses to There are no plans to introduce a timescale for assess who the main carer of a child is when that child’s completion of the mandatory reconsideration process; parents live separately but share parenting. [173248] however, the process will be monitored to ensure the Department delivers the best customer service. The time it takes to complete a mandatory reconsideration Steve Webb: In cases assessed under the 1993, 2003 will vary depending on the circumstances of the case, and 2012 statutory child maintenance schemes, where but DWP will contact the claimant once the mandatory care of a child is shared then the parent who receives reconsideration process is complete. child benefit will be treated as the main carer for child maintenance purposes. The Department will consider a range of measures to monitor the mandatory reconsideration process, including However, in the 2012 statutory child maintenance the volume of requests, outcomes, the time taken to scheme, where it is agreed or can be shown that both deliver the process and subsequent appeal volumes. parents have equal day to day care of the child, then the There are no current plans to publish an evaluation of case would not be eligible for the 2012 scheme. mandatory reconsideration; however, the Department Equal day to day care is not the same as an equal will consider an ad-hoc publication of data during number of nights spent with each parent and includes 2014-15. other factors such as who makes the main spending decisions and who takes the main responsibility for Hearing Impairment arranging things such as child care, schooling or medical appointments. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Employment and Support Allowance provision of communication and language support available for deaf people using Government services. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for [173275] Work and Pensions what advice about alternative support his Department gives to applicants for employment and Mike Penning: There is a wide range of support for support allowance whose claims are disallowed; and if deaf people available across Government. In my new he will make a statement. [173262] role as Minister of State for Disabled People I will be considering the current position and what more might be done. More information on this support can be Esther McVey: Where a claim for employment and found at: support allowance is unsuccessful, or entitlement ceases, a written notification is sent to-the claimant. Notifications www.gov.uk include relevant information about claiming other benefits such as jobseeker’s allowance, working tax credit, income Mental Illness support, pension credit, housing benefit and help with the council tax. Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Additionally, where employment and support allowance and Pensions whether his Department has signed up to is disallowed following a work capability assessment, the Time to Change Initiative to end mental health claimants are advised about claiming other benefits in a discrimination. [172755] decision assurance phone call. This call is made at the point the decision maker is considering disallowing Mike Penning: As both a service provider and employer employment and support allowance. If claimants want the Department for Work and Pensions is committed to to claim jobseeker’s allowance they are asked if they actively eliminating stigma around mental health and to want to be transferred to a contact centre to make the tackling mental health discrimination. claim. They are advised that they will be supported by a We have publicly signalled our commitment to the trained personal adviser who will assess their needs in Time to Change (TTC) Initiative and are currently order to identify the appropriate support to help them progressing the associated action plan with relevant find employment. TTC representatives.
Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Occupational Pensions Work and Pensions what proportion of employment and support allowance assessment decisions he estimates Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for will be changed as part of the mandatory reassessment Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of process; what he expects the (a) average and (b) maximum reports that pensions providers are refusing low-paid timeframe for reassessments to be; and when he intends employees pensions under the auto-enrolment scheme; to publish an evaluation of the success of the mandatory and if he will make a statement. [173027] reassessment process. [173294] Steve Webb: It has always been recognised that the Mike Penning: The Department has not set an commercial pension market would not be able to serve expectation regarding the proportion of decisions that the whole automatic enrolment population at reasonable will be revised through mandatory reconsideration. Each cost and this is particularly true for low to moderate case must be judged on the evidence provided in light of earners. 555W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 556W
This is why the Government has established the National (2) what proportion of potential claimants he Employment Savings Trust (NEST) with a public service expects to be claiming universal credit in 2015; [173185] obligation to ensure all employers have access to a (3) what estimate he has made of how many people low-cost pension scheme to meet-their duties. It must will claim universal credit in the pathfinder sites; accept all workers automatically enrolled by an employer [173186] using it to meet their duties, regardless of their earnings. NEST already has 1,500 participating employers and (4) what estimate he has made of how many people over half a million members. will be claiming universal credit by December 2014. [173187] Poverty: Children Esther McVey: I refer the right hon. lady to the reply Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, Work and Pensions when he plans to respond to the my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban) consultation, Measuring Child Poverty: A consultation provided to the right hon. Member for East Ham on better measures of child poverty, published on 15 (Stephen Timms) on 16 July 2013, Official Report, November 2012, Cm. 8483. [173314] column 660W.
Esther McVey: Government is committed to developing Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for better measures, which include, but go beyond income Work and Pensions what proportion of universal credit to provide a more accurate picture of the reality of claimants can currently make a claim online. [173184] child poverty and drive policies which transform lives rather than chasing moving lines. This is a highly complex issue that we are determined Esther McVey: All currently eligible claimants can to get right and we will publish our response in due make their claim to universal credit online, and the course. overwhelming majority are doing so.
Social Rented Housing: Housing Benefit Work Programme John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for number of people that have been (a) granted and (b) Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to ensure refused the discretionary payment with regards to the continuity of service to Work programme participants under-occupancy penalty in (i) Glasgow North West during market shift action. [173260] constituency, (ii) Glasgow, (iii) Scotland and (iv) the UK. [172856] Esther McVey: Market share shift applies to new Steve Webb: The Department is collecting six-monthly Work programme referrals only. Adjustment to referral returns detailing DHP awards in each local authority. ratios was implemented from 5 August 2013 and there This includes the number of awards granted, but not has been no disruption to continuity of service for the number that have been refused. We are currently Work programme participants. gathering this information and performing the necessary quality assurance checks. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what proportion of those referred John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for to the Work programme since June 2011 had been in Work and Pensions how much of the discretionary receipt of employment and support allowance. [173261] payment budget available to those affected by the under- occupancy penalty has been used in (a) Glasgow City, (b) Scotland and (c) the UK to date. [172858] Esther McVey: The proportion of those referred to the Work programme since June 2011 that have had Steve Webb: The Department has requested that local been in receipt of employment and support allowance is authorities provide a six monthly return detailing DHP 15%. awards in their area. We are currently gathering this information and performing the necessary quality assurance Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for checks. Work and Pensions how much was paid in outcome This year, in addition to the original government payments to Work programme providers in each month contribution, local authorities are able to bid for funding since June 2011; and, in each such month, what from a £20 million reserve fund. The scheme is open to proportion was in respect of recipients of employment bids until 3 February 2014. and support allowance. [173266]
Universal Credit Esther McVey: Outcome payments to Work programme providers in the UK from June 2011 to June 2013, the Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for period covered by the September 2013 official statistics Work and Pensions (1) what estimate he has made of release, totalled £198 million of which £8 million was in how many people will be claiming universal credit in respect of claimants in the ESA payment groups (Groups 5, April 2014; [173183] 6 and 7). 557W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 558W
CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Mrs Grant: The following costs were incurred by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in the 2012-13 Arts: Young People financial year: (a) Gas: £16,841 Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) Electricity: £182,614. Culture, Media and Sport (1) how many 16 to 24-year-olds In the 2010-11 financial year the following costs were participated in or accessed (a) dance or singing, (b) incurred: playing a musical instrument or writing music, (c) Gas: £18,010 theatre, (d) opera/musical theatre, (e) carnival or circus, Electricity: £189,634. (f) street art, (g) visual art and photography, (h) film The Department has reduced its overall bills by reducing or video, (i) craft, (j) creative writing and (k) another consumption. cultural event in each year between 2009-10 and 2012-13; [172957] Football (2) how many school age children participated in or accessed (a) dance or singing, (b) playing a musical Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for instrument or writing music, (c) theatre, (d) opera/musical Culture, Media and Sport what meetings her Department theatre, (e) carnival or circus, (f) street art, (g) visual has had with (a) the FA, (b) UEFA and (c) FIFA on art and photography, (h) film or video, (i) craft, (j) the issues of governance and corruption in the last three creative writing and (k) another cultural event in each years. [173398] year between 2009-10 and 2012-13. [172956] Mrs Grant: DCMS Ministers and officials have regular Mr Vaizey [holding answer 29 October 2013]: Data at meetings with the national and international football this level of detail are not published and require special authorities to discuss a range of issues including governance analysis, and in order to release these data to the same and the need to improve the management of the sport. standard as other published Taking Part data (i.e. including significant testing) we would need more time, but will Leisure deposit it in the House of Commons Library as soon as we have run the analysis. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions she has had Broadband: Northamptonshire with local authorities on support for local projects. [173247]
Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Grant: DCMS continues to work closely with Culture, Media and Sport what progress has been made local authorities on a range of projects. Ministers’ in rolling out broadband to the (a) towns and (b) meetings are published quarterly, in line with Cabinet villages in Northamptonshire. [173265] Office guidance.
Mr Vaizey: The Northamptonshire project signed its Public Libraries: Voluntary Work contract with BT in March 2013 to upgrade around 53,000 premises to superfast broadband. The project is Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for in the final stages the detailed planning and survey Culture, Media and Sport (1) what recent discussions phase and will shortly be entering the build phase with she has had with libraries about volunteer libraries the first cabinet due to go live in early 2014. failing to pay Public Lending Right fees; [172954] (2) what steps she is taking to ensure that volunteer Energy libraries pay Public Lending Right fees. [172955]
Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey[holding answer 29 October 2013]: There Culture, Media and Sport how much her Department has been no recent discussions with volunteer libraries spent on (a) gas and (b) electricity in (i) 2010-11 and about payment of Public Lending Right fees. The payment (ii) 2011-12. [172775] of the Public Lending Right is restricted to loans of books from public libraries. Book loans from university, college, school and other libraries including volunteer Mrs Grant: The Department for Culture, Media and libraries that sit outside the statutory public library Sport spent the following on gas and electricity: service do not qualify for payment. Where a library is (i) 2010-11 run or managed by volunteers and forms part of a Gas: £18,010 library authority’s statutory provision, then PLR applies Electricity: £189,634. and authors are recompensed for the loan. Further details of the PLR scheme are available at: (ii) 2011-12 https://www.gov.uk/public-lending-right-how-it-applies Gas: £20,381 Electricity: £199,743. Sports: Barrow and Furness
Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what costs were incurred by Culture, Media and Sport what estimate she has made her Department’s estate in respect of (a) gas and (b) of the proportion of (a) under 16, (b) 16 to 24, (c) 25 electricity supply in the 2012-13 financial year. [172791] to 39, (d) 40 to 60 and (e) over 60 year olds who 559W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 560W regularly take part in recreational sport in Barrow and Mrs Grant: As part of the £l billion Youth and Furness constituency; and what change there has been Community sport strategy, Sport England is investing: in these figures in the last three years. [173305] (i) in a number projects specifically targeting women and girls. These include: Mrs Grant: The Active People Survey measures the £2.3 million for a year-long pilot in Bury that is looking at ways number of people aged 16 and above taking part in to break down barriers and get the town’s women more active sport across England. For the Barrow-in-Furness local and involved in sport. It’s about listening and giving women what authority, the Active People Survey shows that: they want—whether that be Zumba classes or a game of rounders after they’ve dropped their children off at school. Best practice 35.7% of people aged 16 and above playing sport regularly. from this pilot could then be rolled out nationwide; This is an increase of 4.4% since 2010; 100 “girls only” satellite clubs—community sports clubs in 65.5% of people aged 16 to 34 playing sport regularly. This is secondary schools for 11 to 25-year-olds. The ambition is to have an increase of 12.7% since 2010; 5,000 satellite clubs by 2017; 35.4% of people aged 35 to 54 playing sport regularly. This is £10 million to target women living in deprived areas, and an increase of 1.2% since 2010; and women with children under the age of 16; 16% of the population aged 55+ playing sport regularly. This is £1.7 million to the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation. a decrease of 2.6% since 2010. (ii) £170.8 million to promote participation by people with disabilities, including: Sports: Females £1.98 million to English Federation of Disability Sport; £1.37 million to seven National Disability Sports Organisations Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for to provide disability and impairment expertise; Culture, Media and Sport what assessment she has £17.2 million Inclusive Sport fund to make sport a practical made of the proportion of Sport England funding choice for disabled people; allocated to each funded sport which is spent on £1 million Get Equipped fund for specialist sports equipment. encouraging greater participation by women. [172987] (iii) £1 million in its National Partner Sporting Equals to provide expertise to the national governing bodies of Mrs Grant: Sport England is investing almost £500 boxing, tennis, cricket, swimming and football on million in 46 sport’s national governing bodies. Sports maximising the impact of their programmes in increasing popular with women have received increased funding, the number of black, Asian and minority ethnic groups e.g. netball (£25 million), athletics (£22 million), playing sport. equestrianism (£6 million), swimming (£20 million) and The Active People Survey shows that since 2010: tennis (£17 million). Full details of Sport England’s 334,300 more women are playing sport once a week every investment targets for sports are available on their website: week; www.sportengland.org 208,000 more people with physical or learning disabilities are playing sport once a week every week; Sports: Public Participation 121,600 people from black, Asian and minority ethnic groups are playing sport once a week every week. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Tourism: Coastal Areas Culture, Media and Sport what criteria relating to increasing the participation of (a) women, (b) people Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, with physical or learning disabilities and (c) people Media and Sport what steps she is taking to promote from black, Asian and minority ethnic groups are included tourism in seaside towns. [173268] as part of the bidding process for Sport England funding. Mrs Grant: Seaside tourism has been identified as a [172985] priority area for promotion and is highlighted within VisitEngland’s thematic marketing campaigns. VisitEngland Mrs Grant: All applicants for Sport England funding identified seaside tourism as an area that needed particular must demonstrate that the investment will benefit the attention when it created the Strategic Framework for whole community, as well as evidence of need, impact, Tourism (2010-20) and accompanying Tourism Action and sustainability. Sport England runs a number of Plans. Several seaside towns have also been involved in programmes specifically designed to create opportunities match-funded destination promotions using funding to more women (Active Women) and people with disabilities from the regional growth fund. Further to this, DCLG (the Inclusive Sport Fund) to take up and enjoy sport. have a “Coastal Communities Fund”, which is designed Those bidding to these programmes must provide evidence to support the economic development of coastal of the number of women and disabled people their communities. In 2012-13, the Government committed project will engage. £23.7 million to support this fund, which has been There are no Sport England programmes specifically increased to £27 million for 2013-14. for BME groups as the sports participation by these groups is in line with the general population. WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what steps her Department is Energy taking to promote participation in sport among (a) women, (b) people with physical or learning disabilities Jason McCartney: To ask the Minister for Women and (c) people from black, Asian and minority ethnic and Equalities (1) how much the Government Equalities groups; and what assessment she has made of trends in Office spent on (a) gas and (b) electricity in (i) 2010-11 such participation since 2010. [172986] and (ii) 2011-12; [173132] 561W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 562W
(2) who the provider was for (a) gas and (b) Children’s Rights electricity for the Government Equalities Office in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; [173137] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) what steps the Government Equalities Office is Education what steps the Government is taking to taking to reduce the cost of its gas and electricity implement the UN Committee on the Rights of the provision. [173142] Child—General Comment No. 17, published April 2013, on the right of the child to rest, leisure, play, Mrs Grant: The information requested is not available recreational activities, cultural life and the arts (Article as the GEO has always been based within other 31). [173410] departmental buildings and their bills are not calculated separately. Current initiatives to reduce the cost of gas Mr Timpson: The Government is committed to making and electricity are handled independently of GEO by further progress on implementing the United Nations the building management. Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC), by Television: Licensing ensuring that due consideration is given to the UNCRC Articles when developing new policies and legislation. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Minister for Women and The Government is currently preparing its five-yearly Equalities if she will discuss with TV Licensing what report to the UN Committee on implementation of the proportion of people prosecuted for television licence UNCRC in the round and has published a draft report non-payment are women. [173264] for comment by the key children’s organisations and the Joint Committee on Human Rights A detailed Mrs Grant: TV licensing is the responsibility of the summary of the action being taken in respect of Article BBC, which operates independently of Government. I 31 can be found in chapter 6 of the draft report.1 have no plans to discuss this matter with TV Licensing. 1http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/ healthandwellbeing/b0074766/uncrc/call-for-views
NORTHERN IRELAND Education: Qualifications Police Service of Northern Ireland Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for for Education what proportion of pupils at (a) local Northern Ireland what assessment she has made of the authority maintained schools, (b) sponsored academies, talks facilitated by the Police Service of Northern (c) converter academies, (d) free schools, (e) university Ireland in Cardiff on parading and protesting. [172820] technical colleges, (f) studio schools and (g) independent schools achieved (i) five GCSEs A* to C including Mrs Villiers: The immediate result of the Cardiff English and mathematics and (ii) the English Baccalaureate Talks weekend in May was a statement from participants in the academic year 2012-13. [173324] setting out agreed principles and which recognised and supported the PSNI’s responsibility to uphold the law. Mr Laws: The requested information is published in This was helpful in advance of the parading season, the ’2013 GCSE and equivalent results including key though the events of 12th July and the following days stage 3 provisional1 statistical first release. The information show that significant issues remain to be resolved. A is available in table 3a in the ″Main tables: SFR40/2013″ number of these are now being considered in the Haass document. talks. Please note that the statistical first release does not I am encouraged that the group that met in Cardiff provide a split for pupils in free schools, university has since reconvened several times and appears to be technical colleges and studio schools. These institution regarded by those involved as a useful forum for types have been grouped together due to the small communication and sharing information. Improving number of schools in these categories. communication between key stakeholders and with the police was an important aim of the Cardiff event. 1https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2013-gcse-and- equivalent-results-including-key-stage-3-provisional
EDUCATION Email Charities Act 2006 Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for for how long emails (a) sent and (b) received are Education what reports his Department has laid before retained on his Department’s systems; what the internal each House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of process is for retrieving and searching such emails; and the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172935] if he will make a statement. [173198]
Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education has Elizabeth Truss: The Department does not stipulate not yet laid any reports before Parliament. The how long e-mails should be retained and expects officials Department’s annual report and accounts for 2012-13 to use their judgment based on the content of the is expected to be published in December 2013. A report e-mail. The Department has no central facility for searching on any grants paid under section 70 of the Charities Act every e-mail, though all officials have the facility to 2006 will be laid at the same time. search their own e-mails at any time. 563W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 564W
The Department has policies and guidance for the This is why every school must have a behaviour retention of information, including e-mails, relating to policy, which includes measures to prevent all forms of the work of the Department, that should be retained as bullying. To help schools develop their anti-bullying a formal record. These retention policies are based on measures, the Department updated its advice to schools guidance from the National Archives and apply to all in 2011. This advice gives schools the flexibility to records regardless of medium or format. The management develop their own measures to prevent and tackle bullying. of information and records is the responsibility of all Ofsted hold schools to account for how well they do individual staff members. Guidance is published on the this. Since January 2012, school inspectors have had to intranet and available to all staff. Records within the consider types, rates and patterns of bullying and the Electronic Document and Records Management system effectiveness of the school’s actions to prevent and can be searched and retrieved centrally. tackle bullying, including cyberbullying. Energy The Government has also introduced wider search powers in the Education Act 2011. To give teachers Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for stronger powers to tackle cyberbullying, the Act gives Education what steps his Department is taking to teachers a specific power to search for and, if necessary, reduce its spending on (a) gas and (b) electricity. delete inappropriate images or files on electronic devices, [172784] including mobile phones. Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education has Educating young people about online safety is key to reduced its expenditure on gas and electricity primarily tackling cyberbullying. From September 2014, pupils in through adopting low and no cost energy efficiency all four key stages will be taught about e-safety as part measures, estate rationalisation (by using space more of the new curriculum. This will empower young people efficiently and co-locating with other organisations), to tackle cyberbullying through responsible, respectful and by operating its remaining buildings even more and secure use of technology, as well as ensuring that efficiently. pupils are taught age-appropriate ways of reporting any As part of its energy efficiency programme, the concerns they may have about what they see or encounter Department has achieved a 29% reduction in its greenhouse online. gas (GHG) emissions from travel and energy use, or The Government expects all social media to have 6,594 CO2e tonnes, against a 2009-10 baseline. This has simple mechanisms for reporting abuse, to take action led to significant financial savings of approximately promptly when abuse is reported and to make it easier £1.1 million to the Department’s annual energy bill. for users to turn off anonymous posts. The Government The Department purchases its energy through has pressed for progress through the UK Council for Government Procurement Service (GPS) frameworks Child Internet Safety (UKCCIS). UKCCIS brings together which are let following extensive market competition the most important internet organisations, such as Facebook and EU wide tender processes to guarantee the best and Microsoft, as well as Ministers, and works to prices for energy. The bulk of central Government protect children online. energy is aggregated under GPS frameworks, which The Department is also providing £4 million of funding enables the GPS Energy Team to engage directly with over two years from 2013 to four anti-bullying organisations. the energy markets to achieve best value and price for These are Beatbullying, the Diana Award, Kidscape the taxpayer. and the National Children’s Bureau consortium. While Free Schools this funding has been awarded to specific projects to reduce bullying in general, this can, and does, include Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State work to tackle cyberbullying. for Education what proportion of free schools that have had section 5 Ofsted inspections to date have been classified (a) outstanding, (b) good, (c) requires Pupils: Bullying improvement and (d) inadequate. [173322]
Mr Laws: 25 free schools have been inspected by Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Ofsted under section 5 of the Education Act 2005. The Education how many incidents of bullying between inspection outcomes are as follows: pupils were recorded in schools in each local authority 1. Outstanding: 4 schools (16%) area in the last five years. [172893] 2. Good: 14 schools (56%) 3. Requires improvement: 5 schools (20%) 4. Inadequate: 2 schools (8%) Elizabeth Truss: The Department does not collect information on the number of incidents of bullying. Internet: Bullying Information is, however, collected on the reasons for pupil exclusion. The numbers, by local authority area, Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Education of permanent and fixed period exclusions classified as what steps she is taking to tackle cyber-bullying; and relating to bullying for 2007/08 to 2011/12 are shown in what financial support her Department gives to anti-bullying the following table, a copy of which has been placed in charities to reduce this problem. [900823] the House Library. Elizabeth Truss: The Government is aware that bullying All bullying is totally unacceptable. It is for head via social media sites is a growing problem among teachers to consider whether a pupil should be given a young people and in our schools. We believe that schools, fixed period exclusion, a permanent exclusion or other parents and internet providers all have a role to play in disciplinary penalty, taking account of the severity and keeping children and young people safe online. circumstances of the incident. 565W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 566W
Pupils: Hearing Impairment Mr Timpson: The Department for Education has funded a number of programmes to promote literacy Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for for children and young people with a learning difficulty Education what his policy is on the use of Ofsted to or disability. Grant funding was provided to the Dyslexia inspect and report upon all arrangements for the Specific Learning Difficulties (SpLD) Trust in 2011-13 teaching of deaf children in schools. [172983] to provide advice and information to schools, parents and young people on dyslexia and literacy. In 2013-15 the Trust is also funded through a contract to support Mr Timpson: The Ofsted inspection framework, the Government’s special educational needs (SEN) reforms introduced in September 2012, places a clear emphasis for children and young people with dyslexia and literacy on meeting the needs of disabled pupils and pupils with difficulties, and to provide information on training and special educational needs (SEN), such as deaf pupils. effective approaches to identifying and supporting dyslexic Inspectors must consider the quality of teaching and pupils. the progress made by these pupils. Where a school has a specialist resource base or Funding was provided to Dyslexia Action and the ’integrated unit’ for deaf children, or for other forms of Royal National Institute of Blind People (RNIB) in SEN, these are covered as part of the inspection. 2011-13 to develop the ‘load2learn’ programme which has made more than 2,000 core texts available in flexible Ofsted also inspects special schools, which provide digital format to pupils across the country. Funding was support for deaf children and others who may currently also provided to the National Deaf Children’s Society have a statement of SEN. in 2011-13 to support their work in making schools This means that any deaf child in a mainstream or more deaf-friendly, including guidance on teaching phonics specialist school would have their education inspected to children with a hearing impairment. as part of the Ofsted section 5 framework. From September 2011 to October 2013 the Department has provided match-funding to all state-funded primary Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for schools in England with key stage 1 pupils so that they Education (1) what assessment his Department has can purchase effective systematic synthetic phonics products made of the adequacy of data sets available to local and training to support their teaching of early reading. authorities for accurately identifying children who are From January 2013 the Department is also providing a deaf; [172989] literacy and numeracy catch-up premium to secondary (2) what steps his Department is taking to improve schools, including special schools, for year 7 pupils who collection of data on deaf children in England. have not achieved level 4 at key stage 2 in reading [172988] and/or mathematics. Each of these programmes has offered support to Mr Timpson: It is for local authorities to collect the schools across the country. It is up to individual schools necessary data on deaf children to allow them to fulfil to decide how to use their resources to support their their duties under special educational needs (SEN) and teaching because schools are best placed to recognise disability legislation. the learning needs of their pupils, and to decide what The Department for Education collects data through support each child requires. the statutory school census. This provides information In addition, the Government is fully funding basic on the number of children in each school who have a English and mathematics courses for adults, including hearing impairment as their primary type of need, and those with learning difficulties and/or disabilities, who who receive specialist support. It also provides data on lack those skills. Further Education provision is funded attainment, absence and exclusions. This data is published through the Adult Skills Budget and eligible providers annually in ‘Children with Special Educational Needs: will be able to access this funding to meet the needs of An Analysis’. The most recent data was published on 23 local learners. October 2013. We also provide Learning Support funding to colleges We intend to collect this data on a broader group of and providers to help them meet the costs of reasonable pupils with hearing impairment as part of the Government’s adjustments as set out in the Equality Act 2010. Learning reform of the SEN system. Support is available to meet the additional needs of The Department for Education also funds the National learners with learning difficulties and/or disabilities so Sensory Impairment partnership (NatSIP) to support that they can participate fully in education and training local authorities to benchmark their support services and have the support required to achieve basic English for deaf children, as well as improve the collection and and mathematics qualifications. use of data. NatSIP is currently working with the Consortium for Research in Deaf Education to improve Vocational Guidance the range of data available. Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Special Educational Needs: Lancashire what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of careers advice and guidance at schools and colleges of Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for further education. [173233] Education what education schemes he has funded to promote literacy skills for (a) children and (b) adults Matthew Hancock: The Department commissioned with a severe learning or physical disability in (i) Ribble Ofsted to conduct a thematic review to assess early Valley constituency and (ii) Lancashire in the last five progress on implementation of the legal duty on schools years. [173300] to secure access to independent and impartial careers 567W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 568W guidance. This report was published on 10 September. Amount of relief granted (£) Ofsted found that, while-some schools have responded well to the new duty, the majority of schools need to Basildon 19,900 have higher ambitions for their students and place Bath and North East Somerset 24,900 inspiring careers support at the heart of what they do. Birmingham 438,400 Further education colleges were not included in the Blaby 40,800 Ofsted review because the legal duty was only extended Blackpool 14,500 to cover 16 to 18-year-olds in further education from Bromsgrove 121,400 September 2013. Cheltenham 2,700 Ofsted have confirmed that the provision of careers Corby 6,700 guidance and destinations of pupils will be given higher Cornwall 110,100 priority in their school inspections for the 2013/14 Dartford 38,300 academic year. Ofsted also evaluate learner progression Dover 36,500 to courses leading to higher-level qualifications and East Devon 115,800 into jobs that meet local and national needs, as part of East Riding of Yorkshire 357,100 their college inspections. Enfield 13,000 The Government publishes Destination Measures Fareham 68,200 showing the percentage of students progressing from Fylde 7,600 school or college to further or higher education, Gedling 78,200 employment or training. These show how effective schools Gosport 31,600 are in supporting pupils to move successfully into the Great Yarmouth 96,600 next phase of their education or into sustainable work, Halton 79,500 including through the provision of independent careers Hartlepool 38,200 guidance. Havering 358,200 The Government responded to Ofsted’s report on 10 Herefordshire 388,000 September, publishing a vision statement for careers Hertsmere 70,200 inspiration and an action plan outlining how we intend High Peak 61,100 to take forward their recommendations. Both documents Huntingdonshire 561,700 have been placed in the House of Commons Library. Kingston upon Thames 120,700 Leeds 55,000 Manchester 45,100 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Medway 245,100 Mid Devon 42,900 Energy Middlesbrough 20,100 Milton Keynes 8,000 Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Newcastle-under-Lyme 40,400 Communities and Local Government (1) how much his Newham 151,500 Department spent on (a) gas and (b) electricity in (i) North Warwickshire 25,400 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; [172774] Northampton 1,555,100 (2) which company supplied (a) gas and (b) Northumberland 11,100 electricity to his Department in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) Pendle 111,700 2011-12; [172779] Purbeck 1,600 (3) what steps his Department is taking to reduce its Rotherham 378,000 spending on (a) gas and (b) electricity. [172783] Sevenoaks 100,000 S hep way 700 Brandon Lewis: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer South Derbyshire 2,200 given to the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris South Ribble 98,400 Leslie) on 30 October 2013, Official Report, columns 463- South Staffordshire 54,000 65W. South Tyneside 314,300 Non-domestic Rates Staffordshire Moorlands 77,700 Stockton-on-Tees 8,500 Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Stroud 48,900 Communities and Local Government which local Suffolk Coastal 148,100 authorities have used powers under section 69 of the Sunderland 36,600 Localism Act 2011 to grant business rate relief since Vale of White Horse 59,900 April 2012; and what the total value is of such relief West Berkshire 52,700 granted by each authority. [172196] West Dorset 116,700 Weymouth and Portland 36,000 Brandon Lewis: Details of the local authorities in Wigan 666,600 England that used powers under section 69 of the Wycombe 216,400 Localism Act 2011 to grant business rate relief in 2012-13 Total England 8,234,500 and the total value of the relief granted is shown in the following table. Data were collected on the national non-domestic Amount of relief granted (£) rates (NNDR3) out-turn form which is completed annually
Barnsley 205,900 by all billing authorities in England. These forms had not been certified by auditors. Data from auditor certified 569W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 570W forms are currently being collected and will be published Michael Fallon: The Levy Control Framework totals later in 2013. The final outturn figures may therefore be for schemes funded under the low carbon levy in the slightly different to these provisional figures. years 2015-16 to 2020-21 are as follows (in 2011-12 prices): Regeneration: Coastal Areas £ billion Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps he is taking to support 2015-16 4.30 regeneration projects in seaside towns. [173270] 2016-17 4.90 2017-18 5.60 Kris Hopkins: My Department is working across 2018-19 6.45 Government to promote economic growth and regeneration 2019-20 7.00 in coastal and seaside towns. The Coastal Communities 2020-21 7.60 Fund was launched in 2012 to invest in projects supporting growth and jobs in coastal communities so they are Under current policy instruments, feed-in tariffs (FITs) better able to respond to local needs and opportunities. and the renewables obligation, the amount of direct 26 projects approved in its first year are expected to support predicted to be provided to UK renewables is deliver around 5,000 jobs and support more than 300 as follows: new business start-ups. We will be announcing a further Under feed-in tariffs the support level for generation in 2012-13 round of grant awards to successful projects shortly. is around £477 million in 2011-12 prices. This figure is provisional, A range of other funding schemes supported by the and the final figure is due for publication in December. Government are helping growth and regeneration projects For the renewables obligation, the 2014-15 obligation has been in coastal communities, including the Regional Growth set at 72.3 million ROCs. Using the 2011-12 ROC price (£38.69) this gives a total spend, in 2011-12 prices, of £2,796 million in Fund, European Regional Development Fund, Growing 2014-15. Places Fund, and the Portas Pilots and Towns Teams set up to breathe new life into struggling high streets. Together, these two figures provide an estimate of the amount of funding under the LCF that is to be paid for We have put civic leaders, local residents and businesses continuing schemes, currently supported under FITs (as in the driving seat by giving them a wide toolkit of of the end of 2012-13) and expected to be supported powers, flexibilities and incentives to help drive growth under the RO (as of the end of 2014-15). These figures and regeneration in their area, including seaside towns. will be a slight underestimate, because projects coming Many local enterprise partnerships have prioritised on line in 2012-13 for FITs and 2014-15 for the RO will investment in growth and regeneration projects in their not receive a full year of support, as they are only coastal communities. They will benefit from the Single supported from the point at which they begin generating. Local Growth Fund to be introduced from 2015 onwards. In the following year they will be supported for the full Social Rented Housing year. Therefore, the total support for continuing schemes will be slightly higher than the figures given in the table. Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what guidance Energy his Department issues to local authorities on their surveying and monitoring activity within social Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for housing in cases of suspected tenancy breach. [173173] Energy and Climate Change what progress has been made on Ofgem’s proposal for a secure and private Kris Hopkins: This Department is taking tough action operating licence condition. [173006] to help local authorities and other social landlords deal effectively with those who breach and abuse their tenancies. Michael Fallon [holding answer 30 October 2013]: The Prevention of Social Housing Fraud Act 2013 has Ofgem’s consultation on Secure and Promote licence made the unauthorised subletting of social homes a conditions closed on 9 August. It expects to make a criminal offence. Provisions in the Anti-Social Behaviour, decision on the proposals this autumn with a view to Crime and Policing Bill will make it easier for landlords putting in place the relevant licence conditions by the to evict their most antisocial tenants. end of the year. We expect, in investigating cases where tenants are suspected of breaching their tenancies, local authorities Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for to act in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998, Energy and Climate Change what steps his Department the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 and is taking to reduce its spending on (a) gas and (b) any other relevant legislation. electricity. [173070]
Gregory Barker: Since 2011-12 DECC’s estate has ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE increased in order to accommodate the growth in staff Climate Change Levy numbers and this has had an effect on gas and electricity spend. However DECC continually aims to increase Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for energy efficiency by taking steps to decrease our energy Energy and Climate Change if he will set out the levy consumption and reduce our carbon impact. control framework totals for schemes funded under the Previous work which has contributed to energy efficiency low carbon levy for the years 2015-16 to 2020-21; and and cost savings has included: how much of each such total is estimated to be paid to (1) Installation of a dedicated chiller for our IT systems which continuing schemes and amounts payable for new enables the main chillers which support the building to be switched entrants in each year in this period. [172460] off. 571W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 572W
(2) Development and enforcement of a heating and cooling Number of domestic consumers repaying an energy debt policy. Million (3) Installation of a heat recovery system in the Whitehall Quarter and Place canteen to keep it warm in winter thereby reducing the need year Gas Electricity for heating. 2010 (4) Installation of solar film to reduce solar heat gain, thereby reducing the need for air conditioning in summer. Q1 0.7 0.9 (5) Installation of radiator insulation panels in 55 Whitehall, Q2 0.8 1.0 reducing the need for increased heating in the winter. Q3 0.8 1.0 Current work on energy efficiency and cost savings Q4 0.7 0.9 includes: 2011 (1) The adoption of energy management system ISO50001. (2) Using the Mayor of London’s RE:FIT programme. This Q1 0.7 0.9 scheme is designed to help public sector organisations achieve Q2 0.9 0.9 substantial financial savings, improve the energy performance of Q3 0.8 0.9 their buildings and reduce their CO2 footprint. Q4 0.7 0.8 (3) Undertaking a LED lighting trial with the ambition of rolling out energy efficient lighting. 2012 (4) Allowing opening of windows, where feasible, in Whitehall Q1 0.7 0.8 Place thereby reducing the need for air conditioning. Q2 0.8 0.9
In 2011 there were 3% of gas consumers and 3% of Energy: Billing electricity consumers who were repaying an energy debt, according to Ofgem figures. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for This data relates to customers that have entered a Energy and Climate Change if he will review whether specific formal arrangement with their supplier to repay charges applying to early removal from a fixed-term outstanding arrears. Figures have been rounded to the energy contract are proportionate. [173008] nearest 100,000 consumers and apply to Great Britain. The latest figures currently available are for quarter 2 Gregory Barker [holding answer 30 October 2013]: of 2012. Data for quarters 3 and 4 of 2012 are due to be Ofgem has recently completed a thorough review of the published by Ofgem in November 2013. retail energy market and introduced reforms so consumers face simpler tariff choices and receive clearer information. The data is available on the Ofgem website: Ofgem found that a lack of transparency around https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/about-us/how-we-work/working- termination fees hindered consumers’ engagement in consumers/supplier-performance-social-obligations#charts the market and that some suppliers were automatically rolling over consumers on fixed term contracts to new Energy: North East fixed term contracts. Under Ofgem’s new rules suppliers will have to include Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for key information about tariffs in a tariff information Energy and Climate Change what the average change label, which will include any termination fee that suppliers in energy bills has been for households in the (a) charge on fixed term contracts. The tariff information Borough of Stockton-on-Tees, (b) Tees Valley and (c) label will appear on customers’ bills and annual statements North East in each of the last five years. [173004] and marketing material about the tariff. Clearer information on termination fees will allow consumers to take them into account when they are considering switching. Michael Fallon [holding answer 30 October 2013]: Stockton-on-Tees, the Tees Valley, and the North East Ofgem’s new rules will also prohibit suppliers from of England are within the Public Electricity Supply rolling over customers on fixed term contracts to another (PES) region “North East”. The change in average fixed term contract. They will be required to notify annual energy bills over the last five years is shown in customers between 49 to 42 days before the end of the the following table for the North East PES region. fixed term period. During this period customers cannot be charged a termination fee if they choose to switch. Total energy Year on year Gas bill (£) Electricity bill bill (£) change (%)
Energy: Debts 2007 521 381 902 2008 615 436 1,051 16 2009 682 426 1,109 6 Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010 656 407 1,063 -4 Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has 2011 712 440 1,152 8 made of the number of people in fuel debt in each 2012 787 469 1,257 9 month since June 2010. [173191] These are based on an assumed annual consumption Gregory Barker: Data on the number of consumers of 3,300 kWh of electricity and 18,000 kWh of gas per in fuel debt are published by Ofgem on a quarterly year. These estimates can be found in table 2.2.3 (electricity) basis. The following table shows the number of consumers and 2.3.3 (gas) of DECC’s Quarterly Energy Prices in fuel debt since quarter 1 of 2010: publication. 573W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 574W
Energy: Prices Michael Fallon: The winter 2013 round of price rises so far announced will affect consumers on variable Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for tariffs. DECC estimates that one in six standard electricity Energy and Climate Change what assessment his consumers and one in five gas consumers were on fixed Department has made of the potential effect of energy or capped tariffs in quarter two of 2013. companies withdrawing their cheapest tariffs in order According to Ofgem, four of the Big 6 suppliers who to comply with the requirement to offer all customers have increased prices (SSE, Scottish Power, Npower their lowest tariff. [172766] and British Gas) accounted for 70% of electricity customers and 77% of gas customers in June 2012. Michael Fallon: There are backstop powers in the The following table shows the total number of domestic Energy Bill to ensure that Ofgem’s important reforms electricity meters for the areas of interest in 2011. The to the retail domestic energy market are not frustrated UK total figure is an estimate. It is published as part of or delayed. DECC sub-national statistics: These reforms will require suppliers to limit the number https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/sub-national- of tariffs they offer to four per fuel and to move electricity-consumption-data customers on poor value dead tariffs to the cheapest equivalent tariff, ensuring that all customers are on the Number of domestic electricity cheapest tariff with their supplier that is in line with meters (thousand) their preferences, such as a preference for a particular Ribble Valley 24 payment method or a fixed or variable rate tariff. Lancashire 644 UK 28,056 Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the Energy: Unfair Practices number of people affected by price rises by (a) SSE, (b) Scottish Power, (c) Npower and (d) British Gas in Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for (i) Paisley and Renfrewshire North constituency, (ii) Energy and Climate Change how many financial penalties Renfrewshire, (iii) Scotland and (iv) the UK. [173039] have been levied on the six largest energy suppliers for unfair trading with small suppliers in the last year. Michael Fallon: The winter 2013 round of price rises [173007] announced so far will affect consumers on variable tariffs. DECC estimates that one in six standard electricity Michael Fallon [holding answer 30 October 2013]: To consumers and one in five gas consumers were on fixed my knowledge, Ofgem has not imposed any financial or capped tariffs in quarter two of 2013. penalties on the six largest energy suppliers for unfair According to Ofgem, four of the Big six suppliers trading with small suppliers in the last year. who have increased prices (SSE, Scottish Power, Npower and British Gas) accounted for 70% of electricity customers Environment Protection and 77% of gas customers in June 2012. Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy The following table shows the total number of domestic and Climate Change what recent discussions he has electricity meters for the areas of interest in 2011. The had with representatives of KFW in Germany on green data are only available at local authority level and the investment in the UK. [172660] UK total figure is an estimate. It is published as part of DECC sub-national statistics: Michael Fallon: All meetings held with external https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/sub-national- companies are published on the Department for Energy electricity-consumption-data and Climate Change’s website: Number of domestic https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/ministers- electricity meters meeting-with-external-organisations Area (1,000) Green Deal Scheme Local East Renfrewshire 39 authority Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Inverclyde 43 Energy and Climate Change how many people have Renfrewshire 90 agreed a Green Deal plan in (a) Doncaster, (b) South Yorkshire and (c) UK in the latest period for which County Renfrewshire 172 figures are available. [172509]
National Scotland 2,747 Gregory Barker: The Department’s latest monthly Green Deal/ECO statistical release, published on 17 October, UK 28,056 showed that 954 Green Deal Plans in Great Britain had at least reached the ’quote accepted’ stage by the end of Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for September. Of those 954 Plans, 57 were ’live’ with Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made energy efficiency measures installed by the end of of the number of people affected by price rises by (a) September. SSE, (b) Scottish Power, (c) Npower and (d) British There have been 85,177 Green Deal Assessments Gas in (i) Ribble Valley constituency, (ii) Lancashire lodged up to the end of September and research published and (iii) the UK. [173304] on 17 September showed that 81% of households who 575W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 576W had a Green Deal Assessment between April and June to use to evaluate the effectiveness of the £3 million 2013 said they have, are getting or intend to install at advertising and awareness campaign to encourage least one energy saving measure using various forms of Green Deal take-up. [172806] finance. The Department also publishes more detailed Gregory Barker: The Department conducts regular breakdowns on the Green Deal/ECO via a quarterly tracking studies with consumers to monitor development statistical series. The latest available information covers of awareness and understanding of the Green Deal. January to June 2013, and includes tables showing the The latest results are published at: number of Green Deal Assessments by parliamentary https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/green-deal- constituency, by nation and by region. In future, we household-tracker-survey-waves-1-and-2-report intend to extend the analysis provided in quarterly releases as the data available increases and this will Hinkley Point C Power Station include a breakdown of information on Green Deal Plans. Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy The latest monthly statistical release can be found at: and Climate Change what public consultation and what https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/green-deal-and- meetings with stakeholders his Department has held in energy-company-obligation-eco-statistics the Republic of Ireland regarding the new nuclear plant The latest quarterly statistical release can be found at: at Hinkley Point. [172825] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/green-deal-and- energy-company-obligation-eco-january-june-2013-statistics Michael Fallon [holding answer 29 October 2013]: DECC has a regular forum for consulting with the Irish Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Government on nuclear matters. We consulted the Irish and Climate Change how many households in each (a) Government thoroughly on the potential impact on parliamentary constituency and (b) nation and region Ireland of the UK’s new nuclear programme, which of the UK have (i) signed up for a Green Deal plan and included Hinkley Point, and on our conclusion that (ii) had measures installed under the Green Deal to there would be no significant impact and therefore no date. [172746] need for a transboundary consultation in the Republic of Ireland. Gregory Barker: The Department’s latest monthly Green Deal/ECO statistical release, published on 17 October, National Grid showed that 954 Green Deal Plans in Great Britain had at least reached the ‘quote accepted’ stage by the end of Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for September. Of those 954 Plans, 57 were ‘live’ with Energy and Climate Change how many short term energy efficiency measures installed by the end of operating contracts are held by the National Grid; and September. what the (a) capacity and (b) duration is of each such There have been 85,177 Green Deal Assessments contract. [172312] lodged up to the end of September and research published on 17 September showed that 81% of households who Michael Fallon: The information following is from had a Green Deal Assessment between April and June National Grid and is based on a snapshot taken for the 2013 said they have, are getting or intend to install at current Short Term Operating Reserve season least one energy saving measure using various forms of (Season 7.4—23 September 2013 to 28 October 2013). finance. STOR contracts (as of 23 October 2013) The Department also publishes more detailed National Grid has awarded 152 individual contracts for Season breakdowns on the Green Deal/ECO via a quarterly 7.4, representing a total MW position of 3,136 MW. On a weekly statistical series. The latest available information covers basis National Grid looks to ensure that 2,300 MW is made January to June 2013, and includes tables showing the available to their Control Room. number of Green Deal Assessments by parliamentary 47 of these contracts were tendered on a flexible basis and as a constituency, by nation and by region. In future, we result may not be made available or have their availability accepted intend to extend the analysis provided in quarterly week to week. The flexible contracts represent 427 MW. releases as the data available increases and this will STOR unit size (for contracts in place at 23 October 2013) include a breakdown of information on Green Deal The size of each individual site contracted for Season 7.4 Plans. ranges from between 3 MW to 300 MW. However, the bulk of The latest monthly statistical release can be found at: sites are <50 MW. A high level breakdown is detailed as follows: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/green-deal-and- Number of STOR Sites energy-company-obligation-eco-statistics Contracted in Season MW Total in each The latest quarterly statistical release can be found at: MW Range 7.4 range https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/green-deal-and- 3MWto10MW 67 405MW energy-company-obligation-eco-january-june-2013-statistics 11 MW to 20 MW 51 834 MW 21 MW to 30 MW 12 303 MW Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for 31 MW to 50 MW 14 537 MW Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 51 MW to 100 MW 4 260 MW 22 October 2013, Official Report, columns 147-48W, on 100 MW + 4 797 MW Green Deal scheme, what criteria his Department plans 577W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 578W
STOR contract duration (for contracts in place at 23 October High Speed 2 Railway Line 2013) 389 MW of these contracts were signed under the Long Term Mrs Gillan: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet STOR opportunity in 2010 and are on contract till March 2025. Office if he will publish the Major Project Authority’s The remaining 2,747 MW are on contracts agreed under the reports into High Speed 2 before Report stage and standard, shorter duration (two year maximum), tender opportunity. Third Reading of the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill. [173325] Offshore Industry Mr Maude: I refer my right hon. Friend to the answer Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for South Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on 30 October has made of the number of workers in the offshore oil 2013, Official Report, column 490W. and gas industry who are employed using daily agreements. Public Records: Northern Ireland [173367]
Jo Swinson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Ms Ritchie: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Office what assessment he has made of the relevance of unreleased Cabinet Office historical documents relating No estimate has been made of the number of workers to Northern Ireland held at Swadlincote to the work of in the offshore oil and gas industry who are employed the Historical Enquiries Team in investigating cases using daily agreements. from the past; and whether he plans to release these records to the National Archive under the Public Records Act 1958. [172829]
CABINET OFFICE Mr Maude: There are no Cabinet Office documents relating to Northern Ireland held at Swadlincote. Cabinet Charities Act 2006 Office officials are assisting the Historical Enquiries Team. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Self-employed Office what reports his Department has laid before each House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of Toby Perkins: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172929] Office how many people were registered as self-employed for the first time in each (a) parliamentary constituency Mr Hurd: Reports laid by the Cabinet Office on and (b) region of the UK in each month since January Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13 are included in the Cabinet 2008. [173355] Office annual report and accounts at: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the attachment_data/file/225980/HC_15.pdf responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Energy Letter from Glen Watson, dated October 2013: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics Jason McCartney: To ask the Minister for the (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question Cabinet Office (1) how much his Department spent on asking the Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills (a) gas and (b) electricity in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) how many people were registered as self-employed for the first 2011-12; [172773] time in each (a) parliamentary constituency and (b) region of the UK in each month since January 2008 (173355). (2) what steps his Department is taking to reduce its The ONS compiles Labour Market Statistics for areas below spending on (a) gas and (b) electricity. [172782] the UK following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions using the Annual Population Survey (APS). However, estimates Mr Maude: These amounts are reported in the Cabinet of the number of people who were self-employed for the first time Office annual report and accounts: are not available from this source. http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1012/hc09/ National and local area estimates for many labour market 0999/0999.pdf statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc00/ count are available on the NOMIS website at 0056/0056.pdf http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Since the last general election, my Department has consolidated its estate, disposing of a number of buildings, including Admiralty Arch which was essentially unoccupied. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS We report on our environmental performance here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cabinet-office- Aerospace Industry greening-government-performance The Cabinet Office now purchases energy through Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the Crown Commercial Service. This was created to Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is strengthen the government’s approach to how it buys taking to support local supply chains in the aviation goods and services to maximise public sector buying sector and ensure that such manufacturing processes power and generate savings for the taxpayer. stay in the UK. [172375] 579W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 580W
Michael Fallon: The Aerospace Industrial Strategy, A further 20 workplaces have taken on an apprentice published in March this year, sets out the actions through AGE 16 to 24 but the apprentice has not yet Government and Industry are taking through the Aerospace been in post for 13 weeks for the employer to have been Growth Partnership to secure and grow the UK’s Aerospace paid the £1,500 grant.1 sector. It includes actions designed to improve the sector’s AGE 16 to 24 provides apprenticeship grants to UK supply chain competitiveness. Including: employers with up to 1,000 employees. A breakdown of Setting up the Aerospace Technology Institute (ATI) which employers by employee size is not available. represents a Government and industry commitment to invest £2 1 Figure rounded to the nearest 10. billion over seven years in aerospace research and development projects across the UK. Improving innovation in the supply chain by delivering a £40 Business: Females million National Aerospace Technology Exploitation Programme (NATEP). A joint Government and industry initiative designed Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, to help supply chain companies develop new technologies and Innovation and Skills how many businesses in (a) sales. Wrexham constituency, (b) Wales and (c) the UK were A £6 million Government and industry funded bursary for 500 owned solely by women in the last five years. [172883] masters degrees in aerospace. The objective is to pinpoint and train future talent now to meet industry needs. Matthew Hancock: The most relevant source of These actions build on existing Government programmes information is the BIS Small Business Survey1. Analysis to support business including, the Advanced Manufacturing of the survey data shows that in 2013 there were an Supply Chain Initiative, the research and development estimated 979,000 “majority women owned” small and tax credit and the Regional Growth Fund. medium-sized enterprises in the UK, while 31,000 of Airbus SAS these were located in Wales. These estimates are not detailed enough to provide Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for figures for specific parliamentary constituencies, such Business, Innovation and Skills what funding from the as Wrexham. public purse Airbus received in the latest period for 1 However the survey can be used only to estimate the number of which figures are available. [172374] small and medium-sized enterprises (defined as a business with less than 250 employees) rather than all businesses that are “majority women owned” (defined as more than 50% of the Michael Fallon: The Government has a number of business being owned by women). funding arrangements with Airbus, many of them contractual and commercially sensitive. This includes grants and repayable loans to Government. The net Business: Government Assistance position is that Airbus paid the UK Government just over £110 million in the financial year 2012-13. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to support Apprentices small businesses in (a) Wrexham constituency, (b) Wales and (c) the UK. [172885] Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people in (a) Wrexham Matthew Hancock: Small businesses are vital to the constituency, (b) Wales and (c) the UK started an economy and this Government is supporting them in apprenticeship in (i) 2012 and (ii) 2013 to date. [172884] many ways. Of course, economic stability, lower taxes, deregulation, Matthew Hancock: Information on the number of and a culture of enterprise are vital to business growth. apprenticeship starts in England by geography is published in a supplementary table to a quarterly Statistical First The home for Government services and information Release (SFR): online is: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3DA49EDD- www.gov.uk EC1F-4F37-8D7A-AC7A0F20E3E8/0/ One of the tools available is the ‘Finance Finder;’ a Oct2013_Apprenticeship_Starts.xls searchable database of publicly-backed sources of finance. The Department does not collect further education The tool helps businesses to explore the full range of information relating to the devolved Administrations. options available, from Government grants to investment finance available from Business Angels and Venture Apprentices: Peterborough Capitalists. The BIS guide “SME access to finance schemes: Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for measures to support small and medium-sized enterprise Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses in growth” is available on the same website by searching Peterborough have participated in the AGE 16 to 24 for the title and provides details on the main forms of scheme to date; and how many and what proportion of public support available to businesses. The website: such businesses were small and medium-sized enterprises. www.greatbusiness.gov.uk [172815] also provides support and advice for businesses trying Matthew Hancock: Provisional data show that between to grow as well as for entrepreneurs starting out. 1 February 2012 and 31 July 2013, 60 employer workplaces In addition to on-line support, the Business Link in Peterborough parliamentary constituency received Helpline is available to provide a quick response on payment to take on an apprentice through the queries about starting a business, or a personalised and Apprenticeship Grant for Employers (AGE 16 to 24)1. in-depth advice service for more complex needs. 581W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 582W
Start-Up Loans are now available to anyone over the Jo Swinson: The following figures relate to spend by age of 18 starting a business (or in the early stages of this Department on gas and electricity in 2010-11 and doing so) but lacking access to the necessary finance or 2011-12: support to realise their ambitions. Further information can be found at: £ http://www.startuploans.co.uk Gas Electricity For businesses ready to go further there is 2010-11 144,305 1,419,770 ‘GrowthAccelerator’—a £200 million programme for 2011-12 127,575 1,192,438 up to 26,000 high growth potential small and medium-sized enterprises, providing them with expertise and networks to achieve sustainable growth. Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills which company Charities Act 2006 supplied (a) gas and (b) electricity to his Department in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12. [172778] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what reports his Department has Jo Swinson: The following companies supplied gas laid before each House of Parliament pursuant to section and electricity to the Department in 2010-11 and 2011-12: 70(9) of the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172927] In 2010-11 and 2011-12 Corona supplied gas to the Department. In 2010-11 and 2011-12 EDF supplied electricity to those Jo Swinson: Reports laid by the Department for buildings which have half hourly meters. Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) on Charities Act In 2010-11 and 2011-12 British Gas supplied electricity to 2006 in 2012/13 are included in BIS’ Annual Report and those buildings which do not have half hourly meters. Accounts at: The Department uses the Government Procurement https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bis-annual-report- Service Energy Framework to purchase its gas and and-accounts-2012-to-2013 electricity supply. Conditions of Employment Local Enterprise Partnerships: Yorkshire and the Humber Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for the prohibition of the use of zero hours contracts. Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment [172860] his Department has made of the effect of local economic partnerships in Yorkshire. [172863] Jo Swinson: BIS’ recent review on zero hours contracts found that they suit some employers and individuals, Michael Fallon: The Government does not carry out but that there was also evidence of abuse in some formal assessments of local enterprise partnerships (LEPs). instances. As partnerships of business and civic leaders, local The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and enterprise partnerships are first and foremost accountable Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham to their local community and local businesses. (Vince Cable), has announced that a consultation will Local enterprise partnerships in Yorkshire are making take place in November to address the concerns identified a real difference through their programmes to support in the recent review of zero hours contracts. growth and jobs, such as the growing places fund and regional growth fund. For example, Leeds City Region Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, LEP has ambitious targets for growth and jobs, building Innovation and Skills what guidance his Department on its diverse economy and driving investment in sectors issues to employers on the use of zero hours contracts. such as precision engineering and textiles, which provide [172871] the most potential for growth. LEPs in England are also being given responsibility for drawing up investment Jo Swinson: The Department for Business, Innovation plans for over £5 billion European Structural and and Skills does not issue guidance to employers on the Investment Funds and will, through their local growth use of zero hours contracts. Neither does the Department deals, gain a share of over £2 billion local growth fund issue guidance to employers on other employment contract from April 2015. types. Members: Correspondence Guidance is available with regard to employment contracts on: Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for www.gov.uk Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to reply for employers and individuals. Employers and individuals to the letter dated 16 August 2013 from the right hon. may also use other sources for information, for example, Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Acas. Mr Robin Wright. [172805]
Energy Jo Swinson: As the matters raised in the right hon. Member’s letter were the responsibility of HM Treasury, Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for his letter was transferred to that Department for a reply. Business, Innovation and Skills how much his An email was sent to the right hon. Member’s office on Department spent on (a) gas and (b) electricity in (i) 29 August 2013 advising him of the transfer of his 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12. [172772] correspondence. 583W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 584W
Mental Illness: Discrimination Matthew Hancock: The start-up loans scheme volumes for (a) Gillingham and Rainham, (b) Medway and (c) Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Kent are as follows. The Start-Up Loans Company Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department does not capture data at constituency level, therefore has signed up to the Time to Change Initiative to end the following figures are obtained by postcode region. mental health discrimination. [172758] (a) Gillingham and Rainham—seven loans with a total value of £51,800; Jo Swinson: BIS is committed to signing the Time to (b) Medway—17 loans with a total value of £132,050; Change pledge. We are in the process of developing a (c) Kent—114 loans with a total value of £694,672. detailed action plan, which is a pre-requisite of formally signing up, and are examining examples of good practice Overseas Trade: Sri Lanka which we might be able to adopt in the Department. We fully support activity to support those with mental Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for health problems in the workplace and endorse the principle Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has that employees with such issues should not be stigmatised. had with (a) UK Trade and Investment, (b) the Motor Sports: Silverstone British high commission in Sri Lanka and (c) the Commonwealth Business Council on representatives of Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for British companies travelling to Sri Lanka during the Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in made of the value of Silverstone Circuit to the UK Colombo in November 2013. [173317] economy. [900817] Michael Fallon: Estimates produced by the Michael Fallon: The Secretary of State for Business, Northamptonshire Enterprise Partnership show that Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Silverstone is at the centre of a cluster of more than Twickenham (Vince Cable), has had no discussions with 1,000 companies working in motorsports and related UK Trade & Investment, the British high commission high performance technologies. Between them they employ in Colombo or the Commonwealth Business Council over 21,000 people and contribute £2 billion to the local regarding British companies travelling to Sri Lanka. economy. The Department for Business, Innovation I understand that a number of UK companies will be and Skills and UK Trade & Investment are already represented in Sri Lanka during November 2013 under working with Silverstone and the local enterprise the auspices of the Commonwealth Business Forum. partnerships across ″Motorsports Valley″ to see what more can be done to support and grow this international Post Offices asset. Natural Gas: Storage Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when (a) he, (b) Ministers in his Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Department and (c) officials in his Department met the Innovation and Skills whether, in exercising his advisory Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance. [173192] role to the Department for Energy and Climate Change on gas storage, he took account of the fact that Dr John Jo Swinson: Details of all external meetings undertaken Roberts, who chaired the report commissioned by the by Ministers at the Department of Business, Innovation Council for Science and Technology into GB electricity and Skills are published on a quarterly basis on the capacity margin, is also, as the Chair of Halite Gas Gov.uk website. Storage, seeking government approval for gas storage in https://www.gov.uk/government/publications? Wyre. [173267] departments%5B%5D=department-for-business-innovation- skills&publication_type=transparency-data Michael Fallon: The Secretary of State for Business, Details covering 2013 Q3 will be published in due Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for course. Twickenham (Vince Cable), agrees that there is no case for a further intervention in the gas market above and The Department has responded to written representations beyond the range of measures already announced to from the Justice for Subspostmasters Alliance who have enhance our gas security in September. This decision is also met the Minister responsible for Post Office matters informed by Ofgem’s report on the outlook for gas on 7 October 2010 and 28 June 2012. There have been security of supply from November 2012, analysis from no direct meetings with departmental officials outside Redpoint consultants, and work with National Grid of these ministerial meetings. and industry participants. The position of Dr John Roberts, the Council for Science and Technology’s report Post Offices: ICT into GB electricity capacity margin, and the case for gas storage in Wyre, were not factors in the decision making Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, process. Innovation and Skills pursuant to the oral statement by New Businesses: Kent the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment Relations and Consumer Affairs, 9 July Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013, Official Report, column 198, on Post Office–Horizon Business, Innovation and Skills how many start-up system, who will chair the review that will determine loans have been granted to businesses in (a) Gillingham how best to adjudicate future disputed cases with regards and Rainham constituency, (b) Medway and (c) Kent to the Horizon system; and whether the review body to date. [173031] has yet met. [173177] 585W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 586W
Jo Swinson: Post Office Ltd has worked closely with Mr Willetts: Estimates of the number of English the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance (JFSA), Second domiciled students eligible to apply for a maintenance Sight (the independent forensic accountants), and the loan are published annually in Table 4A(ii) of the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Student Loans Company’s Statistical First Release, “Student Arbuthnot), to establish a Mediation Scheme. The Scheme Support for Higher Education in England”. The latest will be overseen by a Working Group with an independent published statistics, from November 2012, are available Chair in Sir Anthony Hooper, whose appointment was at the following link: announced on 29 October 2013. The Government is not http://www.slc.co.uk/statistics/national-statistics a member of the Initial Mediation Scheme, but I understand In the academic year 2010/11 we estimated that there that Sir Anthony chaired his first meeting of the Group were 1,011,100 English domiciled students in UK higher on 25 October 2013. education1 who were eligible to apply for a maintenance Subpostmasters who wish to have their case considered loan. Of this total, 983,295 students were enrolled at by the Initial Mediation Scheme have until 18 November UK higher education institutions, of which 23,545 were 2013 to submit their applications. The scheme opened from Lancashire local authority, and 2,305 were from on 27 August 2013. the Ribble Valley constituency. Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Estimates of the maintenance loan eligible population Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions in the academic year 2011/12 will be published in the he has had with Post Office Limited regarding the next edition of “Student Support for Higher Education Horizon system. [173182] in England” on 28 November 2013. 1 This estimate includes students enrolled at UK higher education Jo Swinson: I regularly meet senior representatives institutions and other providers of higher education, such as from Post Office Ltd to discuss a wide range of matters. further education colleges. In addition, officials from the Department’s Shareholder Executive team maintain a close and continuous dialogue with the company. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects Second Sight to Electoral Register: Young People produce its final report on the Post Office Limited Horizon system. [173263] Mr Ward: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what Jo Swinson: Following the publication of Second steps he is taking to increase the number of young Sight’s report in July, Post Office Ltd established a people registering to vote. [173089] Complaint Review and Mediation Scheme to provide an effective mechanism to address subpostmasters’ Greg Clark: The transition to individual electoral complaints. The scheme and its time scales are overseen registration offers the opportunity for electoral by a Working Group, chaired by Sir Anthony Hooper, administrators to ensure as many people as are entitled and comprising of representatives from Post Office Ltd, to are registered to vote. the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance, and Second Additional funding has been made available for the Sight. The Working Group is independent of Government, extra costs associated with this. and is responsible for meeting the recommendations set out in the interim report. Subpostmasters who wish to have their cases reviewed by the Mediation Scheme have until 18 November to apply. These will then be considered HEALTH and where appropriate investigated. It is for the independent Working Group to decide how to report on the findings Ambulance Services of those investigations in due course. Staff John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received from NHS Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for hospital trusts on the availability of ambulances in the Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of last 12 months. [173306] employees within his Department on each civil service pay scale are (a) women and (b) men. [173024] Jane Ellison: No representations have been received from national health service hospital trusts on the availability Jo Swinson: This information is contained in the of ambulances in the last 12 months. Statistical Bulletin Tables (Table 22) of the 2013 Civil Decision making regarding the number of ambulances Service Statistics. This is available on the following page is an operational issue and is therefore a matter for the on the ONS website: local ambulance trust. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference- tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-319802 Clinical Commissioning Groups Students: Lancashire Sir Roger Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what safeguards he has put in place to ensure Business, Innovation and Skills how many university that there is no conflict of financial interest between students in (a) Ribble Valley constituency and (b) membership of clinical commissioning groups and GP-run Lancashire are eligible for maintenance loans. [173302] practices and health centres; [173319] 587W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 588W
(2) what provision has been made for the registration Dr Poulter: During both 2010-11 and 2011-12 the and publication of the interests of members of clinical Department’s utility providers were as follows: commissioning groups. [173320] Electricity: Southern Electric Gas: Total Gas and Power. Jane Ellison: Every clinical commissioning group (CCG) must have a constitution setting out, among other things, Food the arrangements made for discharging its duties with regards to registers of interest and managing conflicts Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for of interest. CCGs are expected to provide clear guidance Health (1) what estimate he has made of the total to their members and employees on what might constitute amount of saturated fat consumed by the UK a conflict of interest, providing examples that are likely population each year; [173256] to arise. (2) what proportion of UK food industry companies The Health and Social Care Act 2012 sets out clear are signatories of the Saturated Fat Reduction Pledge; requirements of CCGs to make arrangements for managing [173257] conflicts of interests. Each CCG must: (3) who the existing Public Health Responsibility maintain one or more registers of interest of; the members of Deal partners are; and which other companies and the group, members of the its governing body, members of its committees or sub-committees of its governing body, and its organisations were approached about joining the employees; Saturated Fat Reduction Pledge. [173274] publish, or make arrangements to ensure that members of the public have access to these registers on request; Jane Ellison: Average population intake of saturated make arrangements to ensure individuals declare any potential fat in the United Kingdom is estimated at 26 grams per conflicts of interest in relation to a decision to be made by the person per day (12.7% of food energy), around 15% group, and record them in the registers as soon as they become more than is recommended. aware of it, and in any event within 28 days; and The initial group of signatories to the saturated fat make arrangements for managing conflicts of interest, and reduction pledge represents 44% of the retail market potential conflicts of interest in such a way as to ensure that based on sales of products containing saturated fat. they do not and do not appear to, affect the integrity of the group’s decision making process. All relevant organisations were invited to sign up to the pledge, including existing partners and businesses In March 2013, NHS England published “Managing not currently signed to the Responsibility Deal. We will conflicts of interests: Guidance for clinical commissioning encourage additional sign-up over the coming months. groups”. In addition, the National Health Service (Procurement, Patient Choice and Competition) As of the 29 October 2013, there were 591 Responsibility Regulations 2013 set out that commissioners: Deal’s partners. A full list of the partners and the pledges they are signed up to is available on the must manage conflicts and potential conflicts of interests when awarding a contract by prohibiting the award of a Responsibility Deal’s website at: contract where the integrity of the award has been or appears https://responsibilitydeal.dh.gov.uk/partners/ to have been affected by a conflict; and The list of partners is updated on a daily basis. must keep appropriate records of how they managed any conflicts in individual cases. Food: Advertising Dementia Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 25 October 2013, Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 281W, on Food: advertising, Health pursuant to the answer of 17 October 2013, when he will announce action with the food industry to Official Report, column 809W, on dementia, how many reduce exposure to marketing and promotion of less emergency hospitals admissions in each hospital trust healthy foods. [173277] in England were for patients with a diagnosis of dementia in each of the last five years. [173181] Jane Ellison: Identifying further action on the promotion of food is an important part of the work programme of Norman Lamb: Data on a count of finished admission the Responsibility Deal’s Food Network. Discussions episodes where there was an emergency admission method with business and others are under way. and a primary or secondary diagnosis of dementia split by hospital provider for the years 2007-08 to 2011-12, Food: Low Incomes has been placed in the Library. It should be noted that this is not a count of people Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health as the same person may have been admitted on more what guidance his Department gives to families on low than one occasion. incomes on eating healthily. [173269] Reference should be made to the footnotes when interpreting the data. Jane Ellison: We want people of all incomes to have the information to eat a healthy balanced diet, consistent Energy with the United Kingdom’s national food guide the ‘eatwell plate’, and helped by the new consistent Front Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for of Pack nutrition labelling scheme. Health which companies supplied (a) gas and (b) In addition, the Change4life social marketing campaign electricity to his Department in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) focuses primarily on families on a low income in England 2011-12. [173079] and provides advice and support to help people adopt 589W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 590W healthier lifestyles, including healthier diets. Change4life Dr Poulter: Since Public Health England was created now has more than 200 national partners and more on 1 April 2013, 730 iPhones have been purchased at an than a million families have joined the campaign. Through estimated cost of £219,000 excluding VAT. 130 iPads Healthy Start, the Government provides a nutritional have been purchased at a cost of £59,000 excluding safety net in a way that encourages healthy eating to VAT. more than half a million pregnant women and children under four years old in very low income and disadvantaged Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for families throughout the UK. Families apply for the Health pursuant to the answer of 17 October 2013, scheme via their own midwife or health visitor, who Official Report, column 810W, on ICT, what each of his should offer them relevant advice on diet and nutrition Department’s non-departmental public bodies has spent at the same time. on (a) iPads and (b) iPhones since 2011. [173180]
Food: Packaging Dr Poulter: The total expenditure on iPads and iPhones since 2011 for each non-departmental public body is as John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for follows: Health what research his Department has commissioned into reference intakes on food packaging and their Non-departmental public bodies £ reliability in relation to children; and what discussions NHS England 959,040 he has held on this issue with the Cabinet Secretary for Monitor 41,029 Health and Wellbeing in Scotland. [172855] Human Fertilisation and 0 Embryology Authority Jane Ellison: Departmental officials have consulted Human Tissue Authority 0 the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition and National Institute for Health 3,310.73 have had continued dialogue with the devolved and Care Excellence Administrations, industry and consumer organisations Care Quality Commission 44,000 on the question of reference intakes for children. We are Health and Social Care 14,004 considering if further guidance on this issue is required. Information Centre 1. Figures inclusive of VAT. Health: Drinks 2. Expenditure relates to hardware procurement only. Medical Records: Databases Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the number of Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for patients who have been prescribed protein drinks by Health whether electronic access to patient records by their GPs. [173255] 2015 will cover (a) pre-existing patient records or (b) new patient records after that date. [173369] Norman Lamb: Information is not collected centrally on the number of people prescribed medicines or the medical condition being treated. However, information Dr Poulter: Electronic access to patient records will is available on the number of prescription items dispensed cover new information placed on the patient’s record and the net ingredient cost (NIC) of medicines. from the point that online access is made available in the patient’s general practitioner practice. This will It is not possible to distinguish protein drinks specifically apply to both existing patients and any new patients within prescription data. Information is provided for all who register at the practice. products within British National Formulary (BNF) Section 9.4.2 Enteral nutrition, which contains more than just protein drinks. Mental Health Services Number of prescription items written in the United Kingdom and dispensed in the community in England, as classified by BNF Section Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for 9.4.21,2,3 Health (1) what recent assessment he has made of Prescription items NIC (£) ethnic inequalities in mental health services; and what steps he is taking to tackle any such inequality; [172823] 2012-13 6,057,985 227,533,413 1 The usual route of supply for ’protein drinks’ is unlikely to be by (2) what recent assessment he has made of emergency prescription, as many of these products can be bought privately. mental health care in the NHS; [172889] 2 Enteral nutrition products are also used in secondary care, information (3) how many inpatient beds are available for mental on which is not included. 3 Enteral nutrition products delivered to patients in their homes health patients in each mental health trust in each of through homecare providers are not captured within the data. the last five years; and what the average occupation Source: level was for such beds in each trust in each such year. Prescription Cost Analysis (PCA) system [172892]
ICT Norman Lamb: The Department will retain responsibility, working with partners and stakeholders to improve Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for outcomes for Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) and Health pursuant to the answer of 17 October 2013, other disadvantaged groups. NHS England have a critical Official Report, column 810W, on ICT, how many (a) part to play and the NHS Mandate makes clear that iPads and (b) iPhones have been purchased and at what everyone should have timely access to the mental health cost by Public Health England. [173178] services they need. 591W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 592W
The Department’s Equality Action Plan for 2012-13 Dr Poulter: The Government plans to publish its includes a specific focus on mental health, including the further response to the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation objective to ensure that the Mental Health Strategy ‘No Trust Public Inquiry this autumn. This will provide Health Without Mental Health’, and further policy individual responses to each of the Inquiry’s 290 development addresses the needs of individuals from recommendations. BME groups and people with protected characteristics, where evidence shows the greatest need. Multiple Sclerosis The Mental Health Strategy acknowledges the higher incidence of lower well-being and higher rates of mental Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for health problems of some BME groups. It is explicit Health (1) what collaboration there will be between about ensuring that health promotion and ill-health officials working on the update of the NICE guidelines prevention approaches must be targeted at high risk for multiple sclerosis and on the NHS England review groups. This means that programmes must be delivered of the clinical commissioning policy for the Fampyra in such a way that they are accessible to them, leading form of 4-Aminopyridine; [172740] to a narrowing of the health inequality gap between groups. (2) how many individual funding requests for the The Strategy’s Implementation Framework also includes Fampyra form of 4-Aminopyridine and the Sativex actions which a number of partner organisations can form of nabiximols NHS England has received from take to improve the mental health care and treatment each NHS region in each month of the last two years; for the most vulnerable in society, including BME groups. and what the age of each such applicant was; [172744] It further highlights increasing equality in mental health as one of 10 key challenges to translate the vision into (3) how the NHS England review of its commissioning reality, and includes links to work under way across the policy for the Fampyra form of 4-Aminopyridine will NHS and Government to tackle inequality, disadvantage be conducted; and what the timeline for this review is; and discrimination for people with mental health problems. [172752] The Department is currently working with the Home (4) for what reasons NHS England decided not to Office, NHS England, Association of Chief Police Officers, recommend that the Fampyra form of 4-Aminopyridine the Royal College of Psychiatry and others to produce a should be routinely prescribed on the NHS; [172753] concordat on crisis mental health care. This will set out (5) what criteria NHS England applied when deciding an agreed statement of principles between these agencies whether the (a) Fampyra form of 4-Aminopyridine about what a person who needs emergency mental and (b) Sativex form of nabiximols should be considered health care should expect from the services involved. a specialist treatment. [172754] We intend to publish the concordat this year. NHS England is conducting a review into the delivery Norman Lamb: The National Institute for Health of urgent and emergency care in England. The first and Care Excellence (NICE) is currently updating its phase of this review involved development of an evidence clinical guideline on the management of multiple sclerosis base and public engagement on the principles for change in primary and secondary care. The scope of the guideline to the current system. The outcomes of this engagement states that it will cover the management of mobility exercise, and next steps, will be published by NHS with fampridine (Fampyra) and the management of England in the next few weeks. spasticity with Sativex (nabiximols) in patients with The Care Quality Commission (CQC) has started a multiple sclerosis. NICE currently expects to issue its thematic review of emergency mental health care which updated guideline in October 2014. NICE clinical guidelines will report in autumn 2014. This will focus on people’s are developed through consultation with stakeholders. experience of using emergency mental health services NHS England advises that since April 2013 it has and how their needs are met, including access to health- received six requests for Fampyra. One request was based places of safety. received by the midlands and east region, three by the Information in the format requested in respect of London region and two by the south region. No requests mental health in-patient beds is not held centrally. have been received by the north region. NHS England However, NHS England publishes quarterly national does not hold this information by month and does not data on bed occupancy and average stay for mental routinely hold information about the age of the patient. health in-patients across all NHS Trusts. Some of the NHS England was established in April 2013 and so beds identified as mental health beds in the data are does not hold any data on individual funding requests within NHS Trusts that are not specifically mental prior to this date. health trusts. NHS England does not hold information about This data is available on the NHS England website at: individual funding requests for the Sativex form of nabiximols as this treatment is commissioned by Clinical www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed- availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/ Commissioning Groups. No date has been set for a review of the commissioning Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust policy for Fampyra. There is a rolling programme of Specialised Commissioning Policies taking place during Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013-14 and the policy for Fampyra will be incorporated Health how many of the recommendations made by into that programme. Sir Robert Francis QC in his report on care providers by NHS England decided not to recommend that Fampyra Mid-Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust his Department be routinely prescribed on the national health service as (a) has implemented and (b) plans to implement. it did not consider it to be a cost effective use of NHS [173530] resources. 593W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 594W
In line with the Health and Social Care Act 2012, Dr Poulter: We would like to assure my hon. Friend Ministers take into account four factors when considering that at no time has NHS Property Services Limited whether a service should be commissioned directly by used capital allocation for revenue purposes. NHS England rather than by CCGs: Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for the number of individuals who require the provision of the Health pursuant to the answer of 25 October 2013, service or facility; Official Report, column 284W,on NHS Property Services, the cost of providing the service or facility; (a) what guidance he received that the identity of the number of people able to provide the service or facility; purchasers of property sold by NHS Property Services and should not be disclosed due to commercial sensitivity, the financial implications for CCGs if they were required to (b) what criteria he used to determine that the identity arrange for the provision of the service or facility. of purchasers should not be disclosed due to commercial sensitivity and (c) who in his Department made the decision that the names of buyers of property sold by NHS Property Services NHS Property Services was commercially sensitive information; and if he will place a copy of any such guidance received on this matter in the Library. [173310] Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 16 October 2013, Dr Poulter: In my previous answer of 25 October Official Report, column 765W,on NHS Property Services, 2013, Official Report, column 284W,I said this information how much money intended for capital purposes was was commercially sensitive. However, it has subsequently used for short-term financing of NHS Property Services’ come to light that some of this information, which is revenue expenditure; and for what reasons parliamentary not commercially sensitive, is already in the public question 172325 was not answered fully in his initial domain or will be shortly. This information is set as response of 25 October 2013. [173309] follows.
NHS Property Services Limited Property Sales Information Estimated NHS Market Property Total Actual Contracted Value Services Bidders and Property Transaction Sales Price Range Limited Invitations Date Name Status Details Buyer (£ million) (£ million) Valuer Officer for offers1
4 April The Link Completed Freehold Doctors 0.085 0.085 District Director of 1 bidder2 2013 Health Disposal Bonavia, Valuer Asset Centre, Smith, Management Farrer Street, Rehman and Stockton-on- Wrightman Tees 1May Poole House, Completed Freehold Charles 2.715 2.715 District Director of 8 bidders 2013 Stokesley Disposal Church Valuer Asset Road, Developments Management Nunthorpe Ltd 7May St James’ Completed Freehold Crayfern 0.765 0.800 Hellier Director of 4 bidders 2013 Hospital, Disposal Homes Ltd Langstone Asset Development Management Land, Riverhead Close, Southsea 13 May The Elms Completed Freehold GPG No 5 Ltd 0.465 0.465 BNP Director of 1 bidder2 2013 Health Disposal Paribas and Asset Centre, High District Management Street, Valuer Potters Bar 22 May Windmill Signed Freehold Heronslea 5.100 5.2 and 5.0 District Director of 26 bidders 2013 House, Disposal Valuer Asset Everett Close, Management Bushy Heath 30 May Redclyffe Completed Freehold Fairoze Ltd 0.477 0.477 Hellier Director of 3 bidders 2013 House, 63 Disposal Langstone Asset The Avenue, Management Gosport 7 June 3 Auckland Completed Freehold Mr Philip and 0.085 0.085 District Director of 1 bidder 2013 Road, Disposal Ms Augustine Valuer Asset Scunthorpe Management 14 June 72 Laburnum Completed Freehold Ms Cain and 0.090 0.090 District Director of 3 bidders 2013 Avenue, Disposal Mr Lazarcszak Valuer Asset Wallsend Management 27 June Devizes Completed Freehold Oast Lodge 0.395 0.395 District Director of 7 bidders 2013 Clinic, New Disposal Ltd Valuer Asset Park Street, Management Devises 8 August Upton Clinic, Completed Freehold Mr and Mrs 0.170 0.170 District Director of 11 bidders 2013 Weston Disposal Wood Valuer Asset Grove, Upton Management 595W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 596W
NHS Property Services Limited Property Sales Information Estimated NHS Market Property Total Actual Contracted Value Services Bidders and Property Transaction Sales Price Range Limited Invitations Date Name Status Details Buyer (£ million) (£ million) Valuer Officer for offers1
14 August St Johns Completed Freehold Mr and Mrs 0.060 0.060 District Director of 1 bidder 2013 Surgery, Disposal Farrington Valuer Asset Manor Farm Management Road, Huyton 16 August Balsall Completed Freehold Excel Data 0.230 0.185 Gerald Eve Director of 3 bidders 2013 Common Disposal Services Ltd and District Asset Clinic, 148 Valuer Management Station Rd, Balsall Common, Coventry 28 August Blacon Completed Freehold Cheshire West 0.255 0.185 and District Director of 1 bidder 2013 Health Disposal and Chester 0.255 Valuer Asset Clinic, Borough Management Church Way, Council Blacon 30 August Alcester Completed Freehold McCarthy and 1.400 1.125 District Director of 10 bidders 2013 Hospital, Disposal Stone Valuer Asset Priory Road, Retirement Management Alcester Lifestyles Ltd 6 17 Castle Completed Freehold Mark Andrew 0.283 0.162 and District Director of 8 bidders September Street, Disposal Stansfeld 0.283 Valuer Asset 2013 Worcester Management 16 Health Completed Freehold Montebello 0.590 0.475 Savills Director of 5 bidders September Clinic, Disposal Ltd Asset 2013 Market Management Square, Bishops Stortfort 1 The losing bidders would still regard their bidding activity as commercially sensitive, in addition there is personal data in respect of the names of a number of these losing bidders who were individuals however the numbers of bidders are included. 2 There was only one bidder in these circumstances, as the property was sold to a sitting GP tenant.
Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) who the bidders were in each sale of a property Health pursuant to the answer of 25 October 2013, by NHS Property Services. [173312] Official Report, column 284W,on NHS Property Services, (1) which third party independent valuers and reports were relied upon to demonstrate that sales of property by NHS Property Services were at market value; Dr Poulter: The information requested is in the following table. [173311]
NHS Property Services Limited Property Sales Information Estimated NHS Market Property Total Actual Contracted Value Services Bidders and Property Transaction Sales Price Range Limited Invitations Date Name Status Details Buyer (£ million) (£ million) Valuer Officer for offers1
4 April The Link Completed Freehold Doctors 0.085 0.085 District Director of 1 bidder2 2013 Health Disposal Bonavia, Valuer Asset Centre, Smith, Management Farrer Street, Rehman and Stockton-on- Wrightman Tees 1May Poole House, Completed Freehold Charles 2.715 2.715 District Director of 8 bidders 2013 Stokesley Disposal Church Valuer Asset Road, Developments Management Nunthorpe Ltd 7May St James’ Completed Freehold Crayfern 0.765 0.800 Hellier Director of 4 bidders 2013 Hospital, Disposal Homes Ltd Langstone Asset Development Management Land, Riverhead Close, Southsea 13 May The Elms Completed Freehold GPG No 5 Ltd 0.465 0.465 BNP Director of 1 bidder2 2013 Health Disposal Paribas and Asset Centre, High District Management Street, Valuer Potters Bar 22 May Windmill Signed Freehold Heronslea 5.100 5.2 and 5.0 District Director of 26 bidders 2013 House, Disposal Valuer Asset Everett Close, Management Bushy Heath 597W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 598W
NHS Property Services Limited Property Sales Information Estimated NHS Market Property Total Actual Contracted Value Services Bidders and Property Transaction Sales Price Range Limited Invitations Date Name Status Details Buyer (£ million) (£ million) Valuer Officer for offers1
30 May Redclyffe Completed Freehold Fairoze Ltd 0.477 0.477 Hellier Director of 3 bidders 2013 House, 63 Disposal Langstone Asset The Avenue, Management Gosport 7 June 3 Auckland Completed Freehold Mr Philip and 0.085 0.085 District Director of 1 bidder 2013 Road, Disposal Ms Augustine Valuer Asset Scunthorpe Management 14 June 72 Laburnum Completed Freehold Ms Cain and 0.090 0.090 District Director of 3 bidders 2013 Avenue, Disposal Mr Lazarcszak Valuer Asset Wallsend Management 27 June Devizes Completed Freehold Oast Lodge 0.395 0.395 District Director of 7 bidders 2013 Clinic, New Disposal Ltd Valuer Asset Park Street, Management Devises 8 August Upton Clinic, Completed Freehold Mr and Mrs 0.170 0.170 District Director of 11 bidders 2013 Weston Disposal Wood Valuer Asset Grove, Upton Management 14 August St Johns Completed Freehold Mr and Mrs 0.060 0.060 District Director of 1 bidder 2013 Surgery, Disposal Farrington Valuer Asset Manor Farm Management Road, Huyton 16 August Balsall Completed Freehold Excel Data 0.230 0.185 Gerald Eve Director of 3 bidders 2013 Common Disposal Services Ltd and District Asset Clinic, 148 Valuer Management Station Rd, Balsall Common, Coventry 28 August Blacon Completed Freehold Cheshire West 0.255 0.185 and District Director of 1 bidder 2013 Health Disposal and Chester 0.255 Valuer Asset Clinic, Borough Management Church Way, Council Blacon 30 August Alcester Completed Freehold McCarthy and 1.400 1.125 District Director of 10 bidders 2013 Hospital, Disposal Stone Valuer Asset Priory Road, Retirement Management Alcester Lifestyles Ltd 6 17 Castle Completed Freehold Mark Andrew 0.283 0.162 and District Director of 8 bidders September Street, Disposal Stansfeld 0.283 Valuer Asset 2013 Worcester Management 16 Health Completed Freehold Montebello 0.590 0.475 Savills Director of 5 bidders September Clinic, Disposal Ltd Asset 2013 Market Management Square, Bishops Stortfort 1 The losing bidders would still regard their bidding activity as commercially sensitive, in addition there is personal data in respect of the names of a number of these losing bidders who were individuals however the numbers of bidders are included. 2 There was only one bidder in these circumstances, as the property was sold to a sitting GP tenant.
Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for All candidates were evaluated for their knowledge, Health pursuant to the answer of 25 October 2013, skills and strength of experience against the following Official Report, column 284W,on NHS Property Services, headings: how many of the 115 responses received for the non- Finance; executive director positions of NHS Property Services Property Services; were from people working (a) in his Department, (b) Asset Management; in the NHS and (c) outside the public sector; and how Corporate Services; such applications in each category were (i) considered Business Services; strong, (ii) worth further consideration, (iii) considered Strategic; borderline and (iv) did not meet the criteria. [173313] Non-Executive Director Experience; and Dr Poulter: None of the applicants for the non-executive NHS Non-Executive Director Experience. director positions for NHS Property Service Ltd were Each area was scored within a range of 1-3: 1 being from the Department. insufficient, 2 being good but with gaps, and 3 being strong. None of the applicants for the non-executive director Using this methodology candidates were grouped positions were working in executive roles in the national within the following categories: health service at the time of applying, but 22 did have Considered strong; some experience in the NHS as a non-executive director. Worth further consideration; The remaining candidates were not from within the Borderline; and public sector. Did not meet criteria. 599W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 600W
NHS: ICT The Department expects NHS organisations to comply with employment legislation and to follow best practice guidance when managing dismissals and to have robust Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for recruitment procedures in place for new recruits, including Health what assessment he has made of the security the uptake of appropriate references and disclosure and implications of a paperless NHS. [173368] barring service checks as required. Appropriate recruitment Dr Poulter: An assessment of the security implications checks help employers make safer recruitment decisions was not made at the time of the announcement of the and prevent unsuitable people from working with vulnerable challenge to the national health service to become paperless. groups, including children. The NHS already holds large amounts of patient Where a healthcare practitioner is dismissed for information electronically, and it is vital for the effective misconduct, the employer, may decide to refer that and efficient functioning of our health care system, and employee to the relevant professional regulator. Each to meet the needs of high quality care, that patient’s professional regulator has a fitness to practise process information is able to flow around the health and care for handling complaints made by service users, employers system. The NHS has an established information and others. The regulator will consider the circumstances governance framework to protect personal health data, for dismissal and, if appropriate, may remove that and guidance on how to meet its requirements is provided person’s name from their register. centrally. The NHS Constitution makes clear the right to Out of Area Treatment: Wales confidentiality and to expect the NHS to keep patient’s confidential information safe and secure. Individual Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS organisations are legally accountable for complying Health pursuant to the contribution of 25 June 2013, with information governance requirements. These Official Report, column 282, what progress he has made organisations must invest in the relevant capability and on a review of cross-border health care arrangements assure themselves that appropriate security measures for people living in England but registered with GP are in place to protect patient identifiable data and practices in Wales. [172534] ensure authorised access by the relevant and appropriate professionals. All organisations that access personal Jane Ellison: NHS England is looking into this issue confidential data are required to assess and publish and we expect to receive a report from it shortly. details of their performance through the NHS Information Governance Toolkit. Smoking Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the potential John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for effect of the proposed General Practice Extraction Health what estimate he has made of the number of Services; and with what bodies and organisation he has people who smoke in (a) Glasgow North West constituency, consulted. [173370] (b) Glasgow, (c) Scotland and (d) the UK who are (i) under the age of 18 and (ii) over the age of 18. [172854] Dr Poulter: The General Practice Extraction Service is run by the Health and Social Care Information Jane Ellison: The information requested is not available Centre (HSCIC), who have published a privacy impact centrally. This is a devolved matter for the Scottish assessment on their website which explains what they Government. do with personal information collected through services such as the General Practice Extraction Service and Telemedicine what effect that might have on privacy. It also explains what steps the HSCIC takes to protect privacy. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for As with all information technology related projects, Health what assessment he has made of the potential the General Practice Extraction Service has been through contribution of telemedicine to the NHS; and if he will the government business case process to ascertain that it make a statement. [173371] is the right sort of investment, is affordable and value for money. Norman Lamb: The Whole System Demonstrator NHS: Misconduct (WSD) programme, launched in 2008, was funded and run by the Department and was the largest randomised Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for control trial in the world of telecare and telehealth. This Health how many NHS employees have been dismissed WSD evaluated the effects of telehealth service utilisation for misconduct in the last 12 months; whether the on 6,191 patients in 238 general practitioner (GP) practices records of those employees have been permanently across three sites in Newham, Kent and Cornwall. It marked to ensure that they will not be re-employed in was set up to look at cost-effectiveness, clinical-effectiveness, the NHS; and how many of those employees have been organisational issues, effect on carers and work force (a) reported to the police and (b) prosecuted. [172891] issues. A paper from the London School of Economics Dr Poulter: The Department does not hold information (LSE) on cost-effectiveness of telehealth in the WSD regarding the number of national health service employees study, published in the British Medical Journal on who have been dismissed for misconduct, reported to 22 March 2013, found that it was delivered at high cost. the police or prosecuted. This information is held locally The LSE identified a quality-adjusted life year (QALY) by each individual NHS organisation. figure of £90,000 per patient which is three times the 601W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 602W
National Institute for Health and Care Excellence Trust (FT). This is a minimum figure which represents recommended maximum level. The LSE paper can be correspondence received by the Department’s ministerial found at: correspondence unit only. www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f1035 A search of Private Office diary records was made We recognise that, when delivered as an add-on to between 1 January 2012 and 30 June 2013 for relevant existing services at low volume use and at a high unit ministerial meetings and parliamentary business. The price, telehealth and telecare is not cost-effective. This is following representations were identified: why the ‘3millionlives’ initiative was developed. This On 12 July 2012, the former Minister of State for Health initiative aims to build a different approach to delivery (Simon Burns) met Members of Parliament from the Morecambe based on a new business model that will help to make Bay area. The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness asked about telehealth both cost and clinically-effective. WSD clearly an independent inquiry. shows that using telehealth as an integral part of health On 5 February 2013, at a Westminster Hall debate on “Standards of Care and Future Services at University Hospitals of Morecambe and care services can help to reduce hospital admissions. Bay NHS Foundation Trust”, the hon. Member for Barrow and The three WSD sites using telehealth experienced: Furness (John Woodcock) voiced concerns about the need for an a 15% reduction in A&E visits; independent inquiry. a 20% reduction in emergency admissions; On 12 February 2013, at a meeting with the NHS, a local a 14% reduction in elective admissions; campaigner and his MP, the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness, and having listened to the concerns raised, I brokered an a 14% reduction in bed days; agreement for an open, transparent and independent investigation an 8% reduction in tariff costs; and into maternity and neonatal services at University Hospitals of a 45% reduction in mortality rates. Morecambe Bay NHS FT. This investigation is now under way. Implemented effectively as part of a whole system redesign of care, telehealth and telecare have long-term benefits such as alleviating pressure on national health INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT service costs in the long term and improve people’s quality of life through better self-care in the home British Overseas Territories setting. The Department is working closely with the NHS, Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for social care and other stakeholders to simplify procurement International Development how much funding from and commissioning processes for telehealth and telecare the European Development Fund each overseas services. ‘3millionlives’ aims to work in collaboration territory for which Britain has responsibility received in with industry, the NHS, social care and professional (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; how much partners to improve the lives of three million people it will receive in 2013-14; for what purpose each grant over the next five years through the introduction of was received; and if she will make a statement. [173174] telehealth and telecare technologies into redesigned clinical Lynne Featherstone: The European Development Fund pathways. (EDF) was agreed alongside the current Multiannual Tobacco: Packaging Financial Framework, negotiated when the hon. Member was Minister for Europe. EDF has provided funding to John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the following Overseas Territories for which Britain has Health what his policy is on standardised tobacco responsibility. The EDF reports on calendar years and packaging; and what recent discussions he has had on the information is taken from the EuropeAid Annual this issue with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Reports for these years. Wellbeing in Scotland. [172859] Anguilla For the development of the air transportation sector Jane Ellison: I refer the hon. Member to the written and to help implement the Government’s medium-term answer given by the Under-Secretary of State for Health, economic strategy 2010-14. my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) to the hon. Member for EDF disbursement (¤ million) Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) on 8 October 2013, Official Report, column 118W. 2010 6.26 2011 0.02 University Hospitals of Morecambe Bay NHS 2012 3.62 Foundation Trust Falkland Islands Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for To accelerate sustainable economic growth by supporting Health what representations his Department has private sector development in trade and to implement received for a public enquiry to be held into maternity the sustainable development and diversification components and neonatal services at University Hospitals of of the Islands Plan (2012-17). Morecambe Bay NHS Foundation Trust. [173276] A financing decision of EUR 4.13 million was adopted Dr Poulter: A search of the Department’s ministerial in 2013 with disbursements expected from early 2014. correspondence database identified written representations Montserrat received between 1 January 2012 and 30 June 2013 from To support sustainable tourism through infrastructure five individual correspondents calling for a public inquiry development, private sector development and ICT to be held into maternity and neonatal services at development and for the improvement of public University Hospitals of Morecambe Bay NHS Foundation administration. 603W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 604W
This Government has led the way in pressing for the EDF disbursement (¤ million) number of recipients of EU aid under the next MFF 2010 6.51 (2014-20) to be reduced. Under the changes, upper-middle 2011 1.6 income countries including Brazil, China and India will 2012 5.13 no longer receive bilateral grant assistance under the Development Co-operation Instrument. The MFF is now subject to approval by the European Parliament. Pitcairn For the development of alternative landing facilities Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for to support sustainable tourism. International Development which non-governmental organisations are suppliers of UK aid; and in which EDF disbursement (¤ million) countries such aid is distributed. [173375]
2012 1.14 Justine Greening: DFID supports Civil Society A further EUR 2.4 million will be disbursed by the Organisations (CSOs) through a range of centrally managed end of 2013. funds and country programmes. Details of funding St Helena (including Tristan da Cunha and Ascension) provided to UK based CSOs can be found in Table 19 of the ‘Statistics on international Development’ publication To support to transport infrastructure. which is available online at:
EDF disbursement (¤ million) https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/table-19- dfid-expenditure-through-uk-csos-2011-12 2011 3.3 The Department also provides support to local civil society organisations in the countries where we work as appropriate. Turks and Caicos Islands For infrastructure and macro-economic reforms. Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what role is played by the EDF disbursement (¤ million) National Security Council in the decision-making 2010 0.21 process which determines which countries UK aid is 2011 0.78 directed to and in what form. [173376] 2012 5.93 Justine Greening: The National Security Council, on Charities Act 2006 which the Secretary of State for International Development sits, and the National Security Strategy, set a coherent framework for all of HMG’s security and conflict Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for prevention activity, which helps inform decisions as to International Development what reports her which countries receive UK aid. Department has laid before each House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of the Charities Act 2006 in Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012-13. [172942] International Development to how many countries the UK provides aid via Europe Aid; and which of these Mr Duncan: None. are considered by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to have humanitarian records which give cause Energy for concern. [173377]
Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Justine Greening: Under the current Multiannual International Development what costs were incurred Financial Framework (2007-13) negotiated when the by her Department’s estate in respect of (a) gas and right hon. Member was Minister for Europe, EU aid (b) electricity supply in the 2012-13 financial year. investments funded projects regardless of progress on [172794] reform. This Government has ensured that under the next MFF (2014-20), where reforms on democracy and Mr Duncan: DFID’s expenditure on its UK estate human rights have not taken place, funding to governments was £83,058 on gas supplies and £569,706 on electricity can be reduced or withdrawn. during the 2012-13 financial year. Recipients of the EU budget and the European Development Fund can be found in Table 5.11 of the Overseas Aid 2013 EuropeAid Annual report. Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for South Sudan International Development what discretion (a) she and (b) Ministers in her Department have over when and where Europe Aid directs aid. [173374] Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment she has Justine Greening: Decisions on current allocations made of the development effects of seasonal flooding in were taken at the beginning of the 2007-2013 budget South Sudan; and what steps her Department is taking period, when the right hon. Member was Minister for to ensure humanitarian aid is reaching vulnerable people Europe. in these areas. [173168] 605W Written Answers31 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 606W
Lynne Featherstone: Following the onset of heavy of £30 million to the Common Humanitarian Fund rains in August 2013, seasonal flooding has caused (CHF), which is used to address high priority humanitarian damage to houses, crops and basic infrastructure in needs and critical events such as seasonal flooding. eight states across South Sudan. Affected states include Jonglei, Lakes, Northern Bahr el Ghazal, Unity, Upper Syria Nile, Warrap, Western Bahr el Ghazal and Western Equatoria. As of 29 October, approximately 155,000 people were John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for assessed to be in need of assistance. Aid organisations International Development what estimate she has are responding with food, household items, WASH and made of the proportion of Syrian refugees under the medical assistance. Almost 100,000 people have received age of 16 years in each host country who are currently assistance to date. Access challenges remain due to lack in full-time education. [173308] of logistics capacity with many flooded areas only accessible by air, but needs assessments are ongoing in Justine Greening: UNICEF estimates that there are areas that are accessible. 600,000 school-age refugee children in the region: 40,000 The UK has allocated £43 million to meet humanitarian are enrolled in schools in Lebanon, 81,000 in Jordan needs in South Sudan in 2013. This includes an allocation and 85,000 in Turkey.
ORAL ANSWERS
Thursday 31 October 2013
Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 1053 CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued BBC (Golden Goodbyes) ...... 1062 Rural Fair Share Campaign ...... 1191 Broadband ...... 1063 Broadband (Scotland)...... 1053 Fixed Odds Betting Terminals...... 1056 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 1067 Gambling Addiction ...... 1057 Disabled People (Workplace Provision)...... 1072 Horserace Betting Levy...... 1061 FTSE 100 Companies ...... 1069 Online Music Streaming Services ...... 1063 Point of Order...... 1171 Press Regulation ...... 1054 Pregnancy (Work Discrimination)...... 1074 Press Regulation ...... 1058 Public Bodies (Board Representation)...... 1073 Rural Broadband ...... 1053 Sexual Violence Prosecutions ...... 1067 Topical Questions ...... 1064 Violence against Women and Girls...... 1069 Tourism...... 1059 Women in Business ...... 1071 WRITTEN STATEMENTS
Thursday 31 October 2013
Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 55WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 58WS Company Beneficial Ownership Information Immigration Enforcement...... 58WS (Central Registry) ...... 55WS JUSTICE...... 56WS Inquests into the Deaths of Service Personnel...... 56WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 56WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 60WS CAP Reform in England...... 56WS Remploy...... 60WS PETITIONS
Thursday 31 October 2013
Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL PRESENTED PETITION ...... 7P AFFAIRS...... 7P Rural Fair Share Campaign ...... 7P Tougher Legislation For Dangerous Dogs ...... 7P WRITTEN ANSWERS
Thursday 31 October 2013
Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 578W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Aerospace Industry...... 578W Staff ...... 585W Airbus SAS ...... 579W Students: Lancashire...... 585W Apprentices...... 579W Apprentices: Peterborough...... 579W CABINET OFFICE...... 577W Business: Females ...... 580W Charities Act 2006...... 577W Business: Government Assistance ...... 580W Energy...... 577W Charities Act 2006...... 581W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 578W Conditions of Employment...... 581W Public Records: Northern Ireland ...... 578W Energy...... 581W Self-employed ...... 578W Local Enterprise Partnerships: Yorkshire and the Humber ...... 582W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 567W Members: Correspondence ...... 582W Energy...... 567W Mental Illness: Discrimination...... 583W Non-domestic Rates...... 567W Motor Sports: Silverstone ...... 583W Regeneration: Coastal Areas...... 569W Natural Gas: Storage ...... 583W Social Rented Housing...... 569W New Businesses: Kent ...... 583W Overseas Trade: Sri Lanka ...... 584W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 557W Post Offices ...... 584W Arts: Young People ...... 557W Post Offices: ICT...... 584W Broadband: Northamptonshire...... 557W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued HEALTH—continued Energy...... 557W Clinical Commissioning Groups ...... 586W Football ...... 558W Dementia ...... 587W Leisure ...... 558W Energy...... 587W Public Libraries: Voluntary Work ...... 558W Food ...... 588W Sports: Barrow and Furness...... 558W Food: Advertising ...... 588W Sports: Females...... 559W Food: Low Incomes ...... 588W Sports: Public Participation ...... 559W Food: Packaging ...... 589W Tourism: Coastal Areas...... 560W Health: Drinks ...... 589W ICT ...... 589W DEFENCE...... 546W Medical Records: Databases ...... 590W Armed Conflict: Libya...... 546W Mental Health Services ...... 590W Billing ...... 547W Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust ...... 591W Energy...... 547W Multiple Sclerosis...... 592W Gibraltar...... 548W NHS: ICT ...... 599W Military Bases: Northern Ireland...... 548W NHS: Misconduct...... 599W Military Exercises ...... 549W NHS Property Services ...... 593W Pensions...... 549W Out of Area Treatment: Wales ...... 600W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 549W Smoking...... 600W Unmanned Air Vehicles: Afghanistan...... 552W Telemedicine ...... 600W Unmanned Air Vehicles: Syria ...... 552W Tobacco: Packaging ...... 601W University Hospitals of Morecambe Bay NHS DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 586W Foundation Trust...... 601W Electoral Register: Young People ...... 586W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 535W EDUCATION...... 561W Antisocial Behaviour: Young People...... 535W Charities Act 2006...... 561W Asylum ...... 536W Children’s Rights ...... 562W Asylum: Finance...... 535W Education: Qualifications...... 562W Corruption...... 536W Email ...... 562W Entry Clearances: Fees and Charges ...... 537W Energy...... 563W Illegal Immigrants: Employment...... 537W Free Schools...... 563W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 538W Internet: Bullying...... 563W Immigration...... 538W Pupils: Bullying...... 564W Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 .... 538W Pupils: Hearing Impairment...... 565W Immigration: Stratford...... 539W Special Educational Needs: Lancashire...... 565W Members: Correspondence ...... 539W Vocational Guidance...... 566W National Crime Agency ...... 540W Police: Unmanned Air Vehicles...... 540W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 569W Regulation ...... 541W Climate Change Levy...... 569W Theft: Motor Vehicles ...... 541W Energy...... 570W West Mercia Police Federation...... 541W Energy: Billing ...... 571W Energy: Debts ...... 571W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 525W Energy: North East...... 572W Security...... 525W Energy: Prices ...... 573W Energy: Unfair Practices ...... 574W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 602W Environment Protection...... 574W British Overseas Territories...... 602W Green Deal Scheme...... 574W Charities Act 2006...... 603W Hinkley Point C Power Station ...... 576W Energy...... 603W National Grid ...... 576W Overseas Aid...... 603W Offshore Industry...... 577W South Sudan ...... 604W Syria...... 606W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 542W JUSTICE...... 543W Flood Control...... 542W County Courts ...... 543W Redundancy...... 542W Criminal Proceedings ...... 544W Trapping ...... 542W Magistrates ...... 545W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 542W Prisoners: Foreign Nationals...... 545W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 546W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 530W Burma...... 530W Charities Act 2006...... 531W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 561W Colombia ...... 531W Police Service of Northern Ireland...... 561W Energy...... 531W Latin America...... 531W PRIME MINISTER...... 525W Sri Lanka ...... 532W City of London Remembrancer...... 525W UK Trade and Investment...... 532W The Guardian...... 525W Western Sahara ...... 532W SCOTLAND...... 543W HEALTH...... 586W Charities Act 2006...... 543W Ambulance Services ...... 586W Sovereignty ...... 543W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 525W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 560W Aircraft ...... 525W Energy...... 560W Channel Tunnel Railway Line ...... 526W Television: Licensing ...... 561W Cycling...... 526W East Coast Railway Line ...... 527W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 552W Great Western Railway Line...... 527W Access to Elected Office for Disabled People High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 528W Fund ...... 552W Railways: Franchises ...... 528W Child Benefit...... 553W Railways: Passengers...... 529W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 553W Roads...... 529W Hearing Impairment ...... 554W Mental Illness ...... 554W TREASURY ...... 533W Occupational Pensions...... 554W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 533W Poverty: Children ...... 555W Infrastructure...... 533W Social Rented Housing: Housing Benefit ...... 555W National Insurance Contributions: New Universal Credit...... 555W Businesses ...... 534W Work Programme...... 556W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS
Thursday 31 October 2013
Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1053] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Women and Equalities
Business of the House [Col. 1075] Statement—(Mr Lansley)
Annual Energy Statement [Col. 1093] Statement—(Mr Davey)
High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill [Col. 1112] As amended, considered Read the Third time and passed
Petitions [Col. 1190]
Academy Status [Col. 1192] Debate on motion for Adjournment
Westminster Hall Intelligence and Security Services [Col. 333WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment
Written Statements [Col. 55WS]
Petitions [Col. 7P] Observations
Written Answers to Questions [Col. 525W] [see index inside back page]