COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES
Senate Official Hansard No. 14, 2005 WEDNESDAY, 5 OCTOBER 2005
FORTY-FIRST PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FOURTH PERIOD
BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE
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FORTY-FIRST PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FOURTH PERIOD
Governor-General
His Excellency Major-General Michael Jeffery, Companion in the Order of Australia, Com- mander of the Royal Victorian Order, Military Cross
Senate Officeholders President—Senator the Hon. Paul Henry Calvert Deputy President and Chairman of Committees—Senator John Joseph Hogg Temporary Chairmen of Committees—Senators Guy Barnett, George Henry Brandis, Hedley Grant Pearson Chapman, Patricia Margaret Crossin, Alan Baird Ferguson, Michael George Forshaw, Stephen Patrick Hutchins, Linda Jean Kirk, Philip Ross Lightfoot, Gavin Mark Mar- shall, Claire Mary Moore, Andrew James Marshall Murray, Hon. Judith Mary Troeth and John Odin Wentworth Watson Leader of the Government in the Senate—Senator the Hon. Robert Murray Hill Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate—Senator the Hon. Nicholas Hugh Minchin Leader of the Opposition in the Senate—Senator Christopher Vaughan Evans Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate—Senator Stephen Michael Conroy Manager of Government Business in the Senate—Senator the Hon. Christopher Mar- tin Ellison Manager of Opposition Business in the Senate—Senator Joseph William Ludwig
Senate Party Leaders and Whips Leader of the Liberal Party of Australia—Senator the Hon. Robert Murray Hill Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party of Australia—Senator the Hon. Nicholas Hugh Minchin Leader of The Nationals—Senator the Hon. Ronald Leslie Doyle Boswell Deputy Leader of The Nationals—Senator John Alexander Lindsay (Sandy) Macdonald Leader of the Australian Labor Party—Senator Christopher Vaughan Evans Deputy Leader of the Australian Labor Party—Senator Stephen Michael Conroy Leader of the Australian Democrats—Senator Lynette Fay Allison Liberal Party of Australia Whips—Senators Jeannie Margaret Ferris and Alan Eggleston Nationals Whip—Senator Julian John James McGauran Opposition Whips—Senators George Campbell, Linda Jean Kirk and Ruth Stephanie Webber Australian Democrats Whip—Senator Andrew John Julian Bartlett Leader of the Family First Party—Senator Steve Fielding
Printed by authority of the Senate
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Members of the Senate State or Terri- Senator tory Term expires Party Abetz, Hon. Eric TAS 30.6.2011 LP Adams, Judith WA 30.6.2011 LP Allison, Lynette Fay VIC 30.6.2008 AD Barnett, Guy TAS 30.6.2011 LP Bartlett, Andrew John Julian QLD 30.6.2008 AD Bishop, Thomas Mark WA 30.6.2008 ALP Boswell, Hon. Ronald Leslie Doyle QLD 30.6.2008 NATS Brandis, George Henry QLD 30.6.2011 LP Brown, Carol Louise(4) TAS 30.6.2008 ALP Brown, Robert James TAS 30.6.2008 AG Calvert, Hon. Paul Henry TAS 30.6.2008 LP Campbell, George NSW 30.6.2008 ALP Campbell, Hon. Ian Gordon WA 30.6.2011 LP Carr, Kim John VIC 30.6.2011 ALP Chapman, Hedley Grant Pearson SA 30.6.2008 LP Colbeck, Hon. Richard Mansell TAS 30.6.2008 LP Conroy, Stephen Michael VIC 30.6.2011 ALP Coonan, Hon. Helen Lloyd NSW 30.6.2008 LP Crossin, Patricia Margaret (3) NT ALP Eggleston, Alan WA 30.6.2008 LP Ellison, Hon. Christopher Martin WA 30.6.2011 LP Evans, Christopher Vaughan WA 30.6.2011 ALP Faulkner, Hon. John Philip NSW 30.6.2011 ALP Ferguson, Alan Baird SA 30.6.2011 LP Ferris, Jeannie Margaret SA 30.6.2008 LP Fielding, Steve VIC 30.6.2011 FF Fierravanti-Wells, Concetta Anna NSW 30.6.2011 LP Fifield, Mitchell Peter(2) VIC 30.6.2008 LP Forshaw, Michael George NSW 30.6.2011 ALP Heffernan, Hon. William Daniel NSW 30.6.2011 LP Hill, Hon. Robert Murray SA 30.6.2008 LP Hogg, John Joseph QLD 30.6.2008 ALP Humphries, Gary John Joseph (3) ACT LP Hurley, Annette SA 30.6.2011 ALP Hutchins, Stephen Patrick NSW 30.6.2011 ALP Johnston, David Albert Lloyd WA 30.6.2008 LP Joyce, Barnaby QLD 30.6.2011 NATS Kemp, Hon. Charles Roderick VIC 30.6.2008 LP Kirk, Linda Jean SA 30.6.2008 ALP Lightfoot, Philip Ross WA 30.6.2008 LP Ludwig, Joseph William QLD 30.6.2011 ALP Lundy, Kate Alexandra (3) ACT ALP Macdonald, Hon. Ian Douglas QLD 30.6.2008 LP Macdonald, John Alexander Lindsay (Sandy) NSW 30.6.2008 NATS McEwen, Anne SA 30.6.2011 ALP McGauran, Julian John James VIC 30.6.2011 NATS McLucas, Jan Elizabeth QLD 30.6.2011 ALP Marshall, Gavin Mark VIC 30.6.2008 ALP ii
State or Terri- Senator tory Term expires Party Mason, Brett John QLD 30.6.2011 LP Milne, Christine TAS 30.6.2011 AG Minchin, Hon. Nicholas Hugh SA 30.6.2011 LP Moore, Claire Mary QLD 30.6.2008 ALP Murray, Andrew James Marshall WA 30.6.2008 AD Nash, Fiona NSW 30.6.2011 NATS Nettle, Kerry Michelle NSW 30.6.2008 AG O’Brien, Kerry Williams Kelso TAS 30.6.2011 ALP Parry, Stephen TAS 30.6.2011 LP Patterson, Hon. Kay Christine Lesley VIC 30.6.2008 LP Payne, Marise Ann NSW 30.6.2008 LP Polley, Helen TAS 30.6.2011 ALP Ray, Hon. Robert Francis VIC 30.6.2008 ALP Ronaldson, Hon. Michael VIC 30.6.2011 LP Santoro, Santo (1) QLD 30.6.2008 LP Scullion, Nigel Gregory (3) NT CLP Sherry, Hon. Nicholas John TAS 30.6.2008 ALP Siewert, Rachel WA 30.6.2011 AG Stephens, Ursula Mary NSW 30.6.2008 ALP Sterle, Glenn WA 30.6.2011 ALP Stott Despoja, Natasha Jessica SA 30.6.2008 AD Troeth, Hon. Judith Mary VIC 30.6.2011 LP Trood, Russell QLD 30.6.2011 LP Vanstone, Hon. Amanda Eloise SA 30.6.2011 LP Watson, John Odin Wentworth TAS 30.6.2008 LP Webber, Ruth Stephanie WA 30.6.2008 ALP Wong, Penelope Ying Yen SA 30.6.2008 ALP Wortley, Dana SA 30.6.2011 ALP (1) Chosen by the Parliament of Queensland to fill a casual vacancy vice Hon. John Joseph Herron, resigned. (2) Chosen by the Parliament of Victoria to fill a casual vacancy vice Hon. Richard Kenneth Robert Alston, resigned. (3) Term expires at close of day next preceding the polling day for the general election of members of the House of Representatives. (4) Chosen by the Parliament of Tasmania to fill a casual vacancy vice Susan Mary Mackay, resigned.
PARTY ABBREVIATIONS AD—Australian Democrats; AG—Australian Greens; ALP—Australian Labor Party; CLP—Country Labor Party; FF—Family First Party; LP—Liberal Party of Australia; NATS—The Nationals Heads of Parliamentary Departments Clerk of the Senate—H Evans Clerk of the House of Representatives—I C Harris Secretary, Department of Parliamentary Services—H R Penfold QC
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HOWARD MINISTRY
Prime Minister The Hon. John Winston Howard MP Minister for Trade and Deputy Prime Minister The Hon. Mark Anthony James Vaile MP Treasurer The Hon. Peter Howard Costello MP Minister for Transport and Regional Services The Hon. Warren Errol Truss MP Minister for Defence and Leader of the Senator the Hon. Robert Murray Hill Government in the Senate Minister for Foreign Affairs The Hon. Alexander John Gosse Downer MP Minister for Health and Ageing and Leader of the The Hon. Anthony John Abbott MP House Attorney-General The Hon. Philip Maxwell Ruddock MP Minister for Finance and Administration, Deputy Senator the Hon. Nicholas Hugh Minchin Leader of the Government in the Senate and Vice-President of the Executive Council Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry The Hon. Peter John McGauran MP and Deputy Leader of the House Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Senator the Hon. Amanda Eloise Vanstone Indigenous Affairs and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Indigenous Affairs Minister for Education, Science and Training The Hon. Dr Brendan John Nelson MP Minister for Family and Community Services and Senator the Hon. Kay Christine Lesley Patterson Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Women’s Issues Minister for Industry, Tourism and Resources The Hon. Ian Elgin Macfarlane MP Minister for Employment and Workplace The Hon. Kevin James Andrews MP Relations and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for the Public Service Minister for Communications, Information Senator the Hon. Helen Lloyd Coonan Technology and the Arts Minister for the Environment and Heritage Senator the Hon. Ian Gordon Campbell
(The above ministers constitute the cabinet)
iv
HOWARD MINISTRY—continued Minister for Justice and Customs and Manager of Senator the Hon. Christopher Martin Ellison Government Business in the Senate Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and Conservation Senator the Hon. Ian Douglas Macdonald Minister for the Arts and Sport Senator the Hon. Charles Roderick Kemp Minister for Human Services The Hon. Joseph Benedict Hockey MP Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs The Hon. John Kenneth Cobb MP Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer The Hon. Malcolm Thomas Brough MP Special Minister of State Senator the Hon. Eric Abetz Minister for Vocational and Technical Education The Hon. Gary Douglas Hardgrave MP and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister Minister for Ageing The Hon. Julie Isabel Bishop MP Minister for Small Business and Tourism The Hon. Frances Esther Bailey MP Minister for Local Government, Territories and The Hon. James Eric Lloyd MP Roads Minister for Veterans’ Affairs and Minister The Hon. De-Anne Margaret Kelly MP Assisting the Minister for Defence Minister for Workforce Participation The Hon. Peter Craig Dutton MP Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for The Hon. Dr Sharman Nancy Stone MP Finance and Administration Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for The Hon. Warren George Entsch MP Industry, Tourism and Resources Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health The Hon. Christopher Maurice Pyne MP and Ageing Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for The Hon. Teresa Gambaro MP Defence Parliamentary Secretary (Trade) Senator the Hon. John Alexander Lindsay (Sandy) Macdonald Parliamentary Secretary (Foreign Affairs) and The Hon. Bruce Fredrick Billson MP Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister The Hon. Gary Roy Nairn MP Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer The Hon. Christopher John Pearce MP Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the The Hon. Gregory Andrew Hunt MP Environment and Heritage Parliamentary Secretary (Children and Youth The Hon. Sussan Penelope Ley MP Affairs) Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for The Hon. Patrick Francis Farmer MP Education, Science and Training Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Senator the Hon. Richard Mansell Colbeck Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry
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SHADOW MINISTRY
Leader of the Opposition The Hon. Kim Christian Beazley MP Deputy Leader of the Opposition and Shadow Jennifer Louise Macklin MP Minister for Education, Training, Science and Research Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, Shadow Senator Christopher Vaughan Evans Minister for Indigenous Affairs and Shadow Minister for Family and Community Services Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate and Senator Stephen Michael Conroy Shadow Minister for Communications and Information Technology Shadow Minister for Health and Manager of Julia Eileen Gillard MP Opposition Business in the House Shadow Treasurer Wayne Maxwell Swan MP Shadow Attorney-General Nicola Louise Roxon MP Shadow Minister for Industry, Infrastructure and Stephen Francis Smith MP Industrial Relations Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade Kevin Michael Rudd MP and Shadow Minister for International Security Shadow Minister for Defence Robert Bruce McClelland MP Shadow Minister for Regional Development The Hon. Simon Findlay Crean MP Shadow Minister for Primary Industries, Martin John Ferguson MP Resources, Forestry and Tourism Shadow Minister for Environment and Heritage, Anthony Norman Albanese MP Shadow Minister for Water and Deputy Manager of Opposition Business in the House Shadow Minister for Housing, Shadow Minister Senator Kim John Carr for Urban Development and Shadow Minister for Local Government and Territories Shadow Minister for Public Accountability and Kelvin John Thomson MP Shadow Minister for Human Services Shadow Minister for Finance Lindsay James Tanner MP Shadow Minister for Superannuation and Senator the Hon. Nicholas John Sherry Intergenerational Finance and Shadow Minister for Banking and Financial Services Shadow Minister for Child Care, Shadow Minister Tanya Joan Plibersek MP for Youth and Shadow Minister for Women Shadow Minister for Employment and Workforce Senator Penelope Ying Yen Wong Participation and Shadow Minister for Corporate Governance and Responsibility
(The above are shadow cabinet ministers)
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SHADOW MINISTRY—continued Shadow Minister for Consumer Affairs and Laurie Donald Thomas Ferguson MP Shadow Minister for Population Health and Health Regulation Shadow Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries Gavan Michael O’Connor MP Shadow Assistant Treasurer, Shadow Minister for Joel Andrew Fitzgibbon MP Revenue and Shadow Minister for Small Business and Competition Shadow Minister for Transport Senator Kerry Williams Kelso O’Brien Shadow Minister for Sport and Recreation Senator Kate Alexandra Lundy Shadow Minister for Homeland Security and The Hon. Archibald Ronald Bevis MP Shadow Minister for Aviation and Transport Security Shadow Minister for Veterans’ Affairs and Alan Peter Griffin MP Shadow Special Minister of State Shadow Minister for Defence Industry, Senator Thomas Mark Bishop Procurement and Personnel Shadow Minister for Immigration Anthony Stephen Burke MP Shadow Minister for Aged Care, Disabilities and Senator Jan Elizabeth McLucas Carers Shadow Minister for Justice and Customs and Senator Joseph William Ludwig Manager of Opposition Business in the Senate Shadow Minister for Overseas Aid and Pacific Robert Charles Grant Sercombe MP Island Affairs Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Peter Robert Garrett MP Reconciliation and the Arts Shadow Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of John Paul Murphy MP the Opposition Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Defence and The Hon. Graham John Edwards MP Veterans’ Affairs Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Education Kirsten Fiona Livermore MP Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Environment Jennie George MP and Heritage Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Industry, Bernard Fernando Ripoll MP Infrastructure and Industrial Relations Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration Ann Kathleen Corcoran MP Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Treasury Catherine Fiona King MP Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Science and Senator Ursula Mary Stephens Water Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern The Hon. Warren Edward Snowdon MP Australia and Indigenous Affairs
vii CONTENTS
WEDNESDAY, 5 OCTOBER
Chamber Intelligence Services Legislation Amendment Bill 2005— Second Reading...... 1 In Committee...... 25 Third Reading...... 40 Australian Technical Colleges (Flexibility in Achieving Australia’s Skills Needs) Bill 2005— Second Reading...... 40 Matters of Public Interest— Stem Cell Research...... 46 Professor Barry Marshall and Dr Robin Warren ...... 49 Awards for Science...... 49 Medical Research ...... 49 Immigration...... 53 Uranium...... 56 Defence Procurement ...... 59 Uranium Mining...... 62 Ministerial Arrangements ...... 62 Questions Without Notice— Indonesia: Terrorist Attacks...... 63 Electoral Reform ...... 64 Indonesia: Terrorist Attacks...... 65 Indigenous Land Ownership...... 66 Foreign Affairs: Travel Advice...... 67 Indonesia: Terrorist Attacks...... 68 Privacy...... 69 Telecommunications: Competition Reforms ...... 70 Illegal Fishing...... 71 Citrus Industry...... 73 Illegal Fishing...... 74 Murray-Darling Basin ...... 75 Media Ownership ...... 76 Questions Without Notice: Take Note of Answers— Illegal Fishing...... 78 Answers to Questions on Notice— Question Nos 907 and 908 ...... 78 Questions Without Notice: Take Note of Answers— Illegal Fishing...... 80 Privacy...... 86 Petitions— Detention Centres ...... 87 Asylum Seekers...... 87 Notices— Presentation ...... 87 Committees— Selection of Bills Committee—Report...... 92 Leave of Absence...... 95 Notices— Postponement ...... 95
CONTENTS—continued
Committees— Community Affairs References Committee—Reference ...... 95 Tasmania: Proposed Pulp Mill ...... 96 Nobel Prize winners...... 97 Committees— Employment, Workplace Relations and Education Legislation Committee—Extension of Time ...... 98 Economics References Committee—Extension of Time ...... 98 Environment, Communications, Information Technology and the Arts References Committee—Extension of Time...... 98 Discrimination Against Women and Reproductive Choices...... 98 Commonwealth Superannuants ...... 99 Matters of Public Importance— Illegal Fishing...... 99 Committees— Scrutiny of Bills Committee—Report ...... 113 Budget— Consideration by Legislation Committees—Additional Information ...... 114 Committees— Privileges Committee—Report ...... 114 Ministerial Statements— Australian Defence Force Military Justice System ...... 115 Documents— Tabling...... 130 Auditor-General’s Reports— Annual Report ...... 131 Committees— Membership...... 131 Defence Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 1) 2005— Returned from the House of Representatives ...... 131 Customs Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 2) 2005— Assent ...... 132 Appropriation (Regional Telecommunications Services) Bill 2005-2006, Telecommunications (Carrier Licence Charges) Amendment (Industry Plans and Consumer Codes) Bill 2005, Telecommunications Legislation Amendment (Future Proofing and Other Measures) Bill 2005, Telstra (Transition to Full Private Ownership) Bill 2005, Telecommunications Legislation Amendment (Competition and Consumer Issues) Bill 2005 and Protection of the Sea (Shipping Levy) Amendment Bill 2005— Assent ...... 132 Australian Technical Colleges (Flexibility in Achieving Australia’s Skills Needs) Bill 2005— Second Reading...... 132 Documents— Higher Education Report 2004-05...... 136 Documents— Consideration...... 138 Adjournment— Defence Procurement ...... 138
CONTENTS—continued
Illegal Fishing...... 140 Indigenous People: Wages...... 142 Gunns Ltd...... 144 Documents— Tabling...... 147 Tabling...... 147 Indexed Lists of Files ...... 155 Questions on Notice Superannuation Advertising Campaign—(Question No. 104) ...... 156 Visit by President and Mrs Bush—(Question No. 482) ...... 156 Visit by President Hu—(Question No. 483)...... 156 Education, Science and Training: Customer Service—(Question Nos 844 and 857)...... 157 Treasury: Customer Service—(Question No. 855)...... 170 Minister for Education, Science and Training—(Question Nos 879 and 892)...... 189 Mammograms—(Question No. 899)...... 190 Superannuation—(Question No. 971) ...... 191 Education, Science and Training: Grants—(Question Nos 993 and 1006) ...... 191 Health and Ageing: Service Providers—(Question No. 1017)...... 192 Aged Care Places and Facilities—(Question No. 1023) ...... 199 Aged Care Places—(Question No. 1025)...... 199 Mr Charles Zentai—(Question No. 1028)...... 200 Iatrogenesis—(Question No. 1029)...... 202 Community Care Services—(Question No. 1033) ...... 202 Black Hawk Accident: Compensation—(Question No. 1045)...... 203 Australian Defence Force: Cadets—(Question No. 1048) ...... 205 Australian Defence Force: Drug Usage—(Question No. 1049)...... 219 Motor Vehicle Accident—(Question No. 1051) ...... 221 United States of America Military Personnel—(Question No. 1052) ...... 221 Mail and Parcels Screening—(Question No. 1058) ...... 222 Aviation—(Question No. 1071) ...... 223
Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 1
Wednesday, 5 October 2005 versy over the temporary termination of in- ————— telligence to our forces in East Timor was a The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. failure much closer to home. We hope, at Paul Calvert) took the chair at 9.30 am and least, that the lessons of East Timor serve to read prayers. remind our intelligence services that the needs of our troops in the field must come INTELLIGENCE SERVICES first. This is particularly the case in Afghani- LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL stan and Iraq, where our people are so far 2005 away and clearly vulnerable. The tragic repe- Second Reading tition of events in Bali last weekend is an- Debate resumed from 16 June 2005, on other salutary reminder of the importance of motion by Senator Ellison: intelligence. Sadly, it seems there was none, That this bill be now read a second time. which again clearly shows how difficult ter- rorism is to deal with. Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- tralia) (9.31 am)—I rise to speak on the In- Turning to the bill itself, this legislation telligence Services Legislation Amendment seeks to amend the Intelligence Services Act Bill 2005. This is an important piece of legis- 2001. The majority of the measures con- lation that will go some way towards enhanc- tained in the bill arise from the recommenda- ing accountability and oversight of Austra- tions of the July 2004 Report of the inquiry lia’s intelligence agencies. There cannot be into Australian intelligence agencies, the any doubt that the gathering and analysis of Flood report. In March 2004 the Prime Min- intelligence is at the front line in the fight ister announced an independent review of the against terrorism. Terrorism, it goes without Australian foreign intelligence community. saying, is an insidious phenomenon and, as This included, inter alia, the effectiveness of Mr Flood reported, remedies are best focused oversight and accountability mechanisms, in the first instance on thorough information. the suitability of the current division of la- bour among the agencies, the contestability Since the tragic events of 11 September of intelligence assessments and the adequacy 2001, more than $4 billion has been commit- of current resourcing of intelligence agen- ted by the Australian government to security cies. and intelligence services through security and intelligence activities. This has been the The Flood report made several recom- most rapid expansion of our security and mendations, including, inter alia, extending intelligence agencies since the end of World the mandate of the Parliamentary Joint War II. Improving accountability of our in- Committee on ASIO, ASIS and DSD. In ad- telligence agencies is timely, because of the dition to those organisations currently cov- problems that we have faced in more recent ered by the committee—ASIO, ASIS and years and that seem to be a permanent fea- DSD—this would include the Office of Na- ture of our lives. tional Assessments, ONA; the Defence Intel- ligence Organisation, the DIO; and the De- Our memories are still fresh after the fail- fence Imagery and Geospatial Organisation, ure of intelligence agencies world wide to DIGO. Formalisation of the functions and identify weapons of mass destruction. We ministerial accountability of DIGO would be have to say, as well, that the events of 9-11 consistent with arrangements for other intel- themselves caught agencies napping or, at ligence organisations. best, ill prepared. The embarrassing contro-
CHAMBER 2 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Similarly, the role of the Inspector- tional categories of DIGO’s work, which General of Intelligence and Security under include collecting and obtaining imagery and the Inspector-General of Intelligence and geospatial data to produce intelligence relat- Security Act 1986, the IGIS Act, would be ing to people or organisations outside Austra- amended to include scrutiny of DIGO on a lia; obtaining imagery and geospatial data to comparable basis to that which currently ap- produce intelligence to support ADF exer- plies to DSD and ASIS. There would also be cises, training and operations, wherever they expansion of the mandate of the Inspector- may occur, which includes providing data General of Intelligence and Security, IGIS, to and material in support of ADF decision initiate inquiries at his or her own discretion making for targeting; and obtaining imagery into matters relating to ONA and DIO. In and geospatial data to produce intelligence to particular, such inquiries could be initiated support Commonwealth and state authorities without ministerial referral. These amend- in their national security role. ments would bring the powers of IGIS into Another proposal in the bill is to expand line with the powers of the office in respect the membership of the Parliamentary Joint to ASIO, ASIS and DSD. The legislation also Committee on ASIO, ASIS and DSD from provides for IGIS to conduct a periodic re- seven to nine via the mechanism of one addi- view of ONA statutory independence. Fi- tional senator and one additional member. It nally, the recommendations sought to establishes a new position of deputy chair strengthen ONA’s intelligence community and empowers the committee to establish coordination role. subcommittees when required. Of note is that The government subsequently agreed to the proposed deputy chair would be a gov- accept the recommendations of the Flood ernment member. This measure is out of step inquiry. The exception was the proposal to with other joint standing committees, where change the name of the Office of National the opposition member is the deputy chair. Assessments, the ONA. The Intelligence The ministerial authorisation regime will Services Legislation Amendment Bill 2005 also be changed to allow certain other minis- largely reflects these recommendations. Im- ters to authorise intelligence collection ac- portantly, the provision of a legislative basis tivities in circumstances where the responsi- for the activities of the Defence Imagery and ble minister is not readily contactable or Geospatial Organisation will be a major out- available. The group of ministers will be the come of this bill. DIGO is an agency of the Prime Minister, the ministers for defence and Department of Defence, established in No- foreign affairs and the Attorney-General. vember 2000. While DIGO is a relatively This is stated as intending to allow flexibility new organisation, Australia’s involvement in while ensuring that suitable ministerial con- imagery intelligence and topography is not trol exists. The bill also includes the new. These activities have been an integral strengthening of oversight mechanisms. This part of Australia’s defence for many years. includes regular reporting obligations on all DIGO was created within Defence to better agency heads in respect of those activities realise increasing synergies in the exploita- that have been authorised by the minister. tion of imagery and other data to produce There is also an obligation for agency heads intelligence and geospatial information. to seek a reconsideration of a ministerial au- Like ASIO and DSD, DIGO has a foreign thorisation. This will apply when the circum- intelligence focus; however, its role is not stances which justified the authorised activi- limited to that. The bill sets out the func- ties cease to exist. However, the activation of
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 3 this obligation appears to be unreasonably and Security conducted an inquiry into the subjective with respect to the financial re- legal issues surrounding DSD’s collection of cords of ASIO, ASIS and DSD. communications during the Tampa incident. On the whole, the proposed amendments IGIS reported: contained in the bill appear appropriate and It became apparent for the first time that there are consistent with the recommendations of could be doubt about the legal basis for an ele- the Flood inquiry. They will considerably ment of DSD’s collection strategy in certain un- strengthen accountability, reporting and in- usual circumstances. Legal advice obtained by vestigatory powers of oversight of our major DSD was that the legal position was unclear. In the particular circumstances, however, a court intelligence agencies. would probably favour the argument that there I now turn to some substantive concerns was a breach of the Telecommunications Inter- with the bill. The opposition’s primary focus ception Act, although there were also arguments in considering the bill is paragraph 22. Para- that there was no breach and that expert engineer- graph 22 proposes the removal of the quali- ing advice could be determinative of the issue. fying words currently obtained in section Two end product reports, including one of those 8(1)(a)(i) of the Intelligence Services Act. mentioned above, relied upon such collection. This provides for ministerial directions that Situations giving rise to the potential difficulty previously only covered activities for the would be unlikely to occur in the course of nor- mal foreign intelligence collection. In my view, specific purpose of producing intelligence on however, the appropriate course was for DSD not an Australian person who is overseas—the to undertake any more collection that had the key words there being ‘who is overseas’. The potential to be in breach of the Act until the issue outcome of this is that, despite some ambigu- has been put beyond doubt. The Director, DSD ity, a minister will be required to authorise has indicated that DSD is very conscious of the the production of intelligence on an Austra- seriousness of this matter and ceased such activity lian person regardless of whether that person immediately upon becoming aware of the diffi- is overseas or in Australia. culty. The Director will be taking steps, with other Commonwealth agencies, to clarify and Currently, the legislation requires authori- resolve the issue, and will report progress to the sation only in respect of an Australian who is Inspector General. I hope to be able to report overseas. The situation in respect of an Aus- more definitively on this in the 2001 2002 IGIS tralian within Australia is the subject of a annual report. ministerial direction that specifies that such Beyond the amendments proposed in this bill authorisation is necessary. The government and the appointment to DSD of an in-house argues that this amendment adds an addi- special counsel outposted from the Austra- tional safeguard to the operation of the act. lian Government Solicitor, no statement or That is because the legislation will now clarification of the legality of DSD’s activi- mandate the requirement of ministerial au- ties generally or in circumstances similar to thorisation for the collection of intelligence those of 2001 has been produced. Accord- on Australians wherever they are located. ingly, the current legal position is and re- This issue arose in late 2001 when allega- mains ambiguous. In particular, there is a tions were raised that DSD had illegally lis- question as to whether the legislation should tened to and reported phone conversations be construed as authorising the collection of between Australians in Australia and the cap- intelligence on Australians who are within tain of the Norwegian freighter, the Tampa. Australia. In 2002 the Inspector-General of Intelligence
CHAMBER 4 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
As a matter of practical reality, the gov- and the government. The government, we ernment’s view of the legislation is that ap- believe, should listen to this committee and plied by the relevant agencies—‘of course’, legislate in accordance with its recommenda- it is said. In certain circumstances they ob- tions. We ask the government to agree to tain intelligence on Australians who are in amendments simplifying the warrant process Australia where they may be communicating in the case of emergency requests and to or dealing with persons who are outside Aus- provide an alternative authorisation process tralia. Under the present regime, it appears in the absence of the Attorney-General. that it is intended that either the Minister for Additional amendments include incorpo- Defence or the Minister for Foreign Affairs rating a safeguard to minimise the retention would be authorised to approve the collec- of incidentally obtained intelligence about tion of intelligence on Australian citizens Australians. These amendments require that within Australia. This would be done using the Attorney-General be notified when an highly sophisticated military technologies authorisation is given by either the Minister without the appropriate safeguards that are for Defence or the Minister for Foreign Af- traditionally required in respect of any fairs to obtain intelligence on Australians equivalent surveillance activity. Signifi- overseas. The government has indicated that cantly, the powers of surveillance would in- it is not prepared to support these sensible clude not only the electronic interception amendments. technologies available to the DSD but also The regime proposed by the government the increasingly sophisticated satellite imag- is also deficient in that it does not include a ing capabilities available to DIGO. formal written warrant procedure. The gov- We believe that any surveillance tech- ernment is satisfied that the present ministe- nologies applied with respect to Australians rial authorisation regime is sufficient protec- within Australia should be consistent with tion for the privacy of Australians. The oppo- the warrant regime that currently applies to sition are not satisfied that the bill provides ASIO. The current ASIO regime contains a adequate protection to Australians in Austra- number of different surveillance warrant lia, nor do we believe it satisfactorily clari- procedures. The closest equivalent is the fies the legal ambit of activity of our intelli- telecommunications interception power. On gence agencies collecting foreign intelli- that basis it is proposed that Labor move an gence. amendment to the bill to replicate as closely I now turn to other concerns. Although as possible the safeguards that apply to ASIO this bill goes some way towards improving warrants. This is entirely consistent with the accountability and oversight of our intelli- recommendation of the report of the Parlia- gence agencies, several outstanding issues mentary Joint Committee on ASIO, ASIS remain. The first concerns the parliamentary and DSD into the bill. The committee rec- joint committee, which is required under the ommended: Intelligence Services Act 2001 to review the … as the regime moves from Ministerial direction administration and expenditure of Australia’s to legislated Ministerial authority as proposed in intelligence agencies. Earlier this year it ac- Item 22, it should generally replicate the provi- sions of and have identical authorisation provi- knowledged: sions to those that apply to ASIO. … that it is not equipped to conduct a detailed This was a unanimous recommendation, examination of the financial records of ASIO, ASIS and DSD. supported by members of both the opposition
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 5
So, despite the rapid growth of our intelli- cies, but, more importantly, might go some gence agencies since 2001, effective parlia- way to protect the agencies themselves. If mentary oversight of these agencies still does these agencies are subject to a regular par- not exist and the government has failed to liamentary review process, a better under- remedy this state of affairs. standing of the legitimate activities will be The bipartisan committee report was quite gained by the parliament. That will go to explicit in its criticism of the government for reducing ambiguity within the agencies in failing to provide it with the necessary in- their day-to-day operations. It may also assist formation to examine the expenditure of to prevent a repeat of incidents such as Australia’s intelligence agencies. The com- Tampa in 2001 and the switching-off of intel- mittee reported: ligence in East Timor in 1999. I will speak further to these matters during the committee It is unfortunate … that at a time effective scru- tiny of our intelligence agencies is perhaps most stage, when we will move these important needed, this Committee, which possesses an in- amendments. disputable need-to-know, is still denied access to Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- key documentation, notably the classified annual tralia) (9.50 am)—I rise on behalf of the reports of the agencies. Australian Democrats to speak to the Intelli- Similar concerns were raised by the parlia- gence Services Legislation Amendment Bill mentary joint committee in 2001-02. The 2005. As you have heard, the purpose of this government refused to act then and refuses to bill is to amend the Intelligence Services Act act now on recommendations made by the 2001, the Office of National Assessments committee to improve accountability. The Act 1977, the Inspector-General of Intelli- activities of our intelligence agencies should gence and Security Act 1986 and related leg- not be subject to the same level of public islation in order to implement proposals rec- scrutiny as other government departments ommended by the Flood inquiry as well as and agencies. Their work is by nature secre- the government’s review of the intelligence tive and must be so in order to protect services agencies coordinated by the De- sources of intelligence and continued access partment of the Prime Minister and Cabinet by government. However, this does not pre- last year. clude limited and confidential parliamentary When the Flood inquiry was established, oversight by an appropriately tasked parlia- as honourable senators may be aware, the mentary committee such as the joint commit- Australian Democrats called for it to look at tee. As much was stated in the 2004 Flood the broader issue of the government’s role in report: the use of intelligence as well as the activi- Effective oversight and accountability of intelli- ties of the intelligence agencies. The Democ- gence agencies is critically important for a rats, along with many Australians, I think, healthy democracy. remain quite sceptical about the adequacy of … … … that inquiry because of its narrow terms of … greater parliamentary scrutiny is necessary to reference, the fact that it was not fully inde- enhance public confidence in Australia’s intelli- pendent and, as you have heard from Senator gence agencies. Bishop, the lack of information that at times The government should now act to allow was made available to it. So the Flood in- greater scrutiny of the expenditure of public quiry was nowhere near as comprehensive as money by our intelligence agencies. This it should and could have been. would enhance accountability of these agen-
CHAMBER 6 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
I find it ironic that, in some cases, this Among other things, this bill will provide government has no qualms about adopting new powers to enable ASIS, DIGO and DSD legislation—and quite draconian legislation to communicate incidentally obtained intelli- at times—from other jurisdictions, particu- gence acquired unintentionally in the course larly overseas, yet it fails to adopt the safe- of gathering foreign intelligence to state and guards that sometimes occur in that legisla- Commonwealth authorities or to approved tion or those policies in other jurisdictions. It authorities from other countries. Currently, certainly appears to have ignored the far these agencies can only communicate intelli- more comprehensive examinations of intelli- gence as it is collected in pursuit of their gence services and the decisions made prior primary function. So this amendment—and I to the war in Iraq that were conducted in the know Senator Bishop has referred to it—will United States and, indeed, in the United provide a considerable increase in the type of Kingdom. We have had no such adequate or intelligence information that these agencies comparable investigation here in Australia, can communicate. The limitations as to and I think that shows a lack of attention to whether or not this information can be accountability, transparency and, indeed, passed on are very broad and appear to give honesty by this government. substantial scope for justifying the commu- In light of the raft of legislation that is nication of almost any intelligence. about to be presented to this parliament— Following the detention and deportation legislation that I suspect has great potential of American peace activist Scott Parkin, a to erode the human rights, the civil rights number of Australians—certainly Australian and, certainly, the civil liberties of Austra- Democrat senators and others in this place— lians—surely it is the responsibility of the have been left wondering exactly what con- government to ensure that the Australian stitutes a threat to security. I believe this people have every confidence in our intelli- change could—although I hope not—provide gence agencies. The government to date has a somewhat irresistible temptation for testing failed to do this, given there are a number of the boundaries of what is collected uninten- credible claims of systematic failure within tionally. I hope that perhaps in the committee our intelligence services—in particular, alle- stage the minister can give us some assur- gations made by Lieutenant Colonel Lance ances on this issue. It certainly is an even Collins and, of course, the seriously flawed greater concern given that intelligence agen- information on which our Prime Minister cies are not constrained by the Privacy Act. and the cabinet relied in order to take us to Exactly how will the transmission of inci- war in Iraq. dental intelligence to state authorities work, The Democrats have long argued for a especially when it comes to an absence of royal commission—certainly nothing less is staff who hold national security clearances? I good enough—into our intelligence service hope the government will address that in agencies and their relationship with the gov- their committee stage comments. From what ernment. We cannot hope to meet the threats I can see, there appear to be no limits as to that have been posed in recent times, particu- what bodies constitute an appropriate state larly by terrorism, without absolute confi- authority. While intelligence sharing has po- dence in our intelligence agencies. We need tential benefits, there are significant implica- to know that they are functioning properly tions for privacy that must be considered in and without undue interference. the context of this bill and that certainly need to be more adequately addressed.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 7
The report of the Joint Committee on the clause 29(3)(e). There is no adequate reason Australian Security Intelligence Organisa- why the government cannot extend the same tion, the Australian Secret Intelligence Ser- limited protections to non-Australians as it vice and the Defence Signals Directorate has to Australians. Indeed, international law indicated that the amendments proposed in appears to require the safeguarding of the item 22 of schedule 1 of the bill—that is, to basic rights of all people within the borders delete the words ‘who is overseas’ from sec- of our country. tion 8 of the act—will result in the provision In recent weeks the government has pro- of a reasonable safeguard for Australians by posed some of the most draconian laws—to ensuring that ASIS, DIGO and DSD will be use a phrase that I heard Premier Beattie and required to seek a ministerial authorisation to others utter at the COAG summit—and cer- produce intelligence on an Australian person, tainly unprecedented laws in Australia. It whether they are overseas or in Australia. apparently plans to implement these laws However, these amendments have raised without consideration as to the consequences concerns. I note that in a Sydney Morning they might have for the rights and liberties of Herald article published in June, Professor the Australian people. I hope that is not the George Williams from the University of New case; I hope there will be adequate scrutiny South Wales contended that the provisions and review of those laws through this place. I were actually unclear. He expressed concern hope that the government will perhaps con- that they might be interpreted as an extension sider protections and safeguards—maybe a of the power of the agencies that would en- human rights act or a bill of rights. That is able them ‘to conduct their operations in re- something we can talk about in due course. gards to Australians in Australia in a way But, given this apparent race—I am not just they have not been able to do in the past’. I blaming the Commonwealth—to rob Austra- think the government needs to provide some lians of some of their liberties and privacy, clarification of the reason for this amend- perhaps the most fundamental issue in this ment and the intended result—that is, to en- bill relates to the accountability and the over- sure that there is no misunderstanding or sight of intelligence agencies. misinterpretation. This is an issue that was recognised by The Australian Democrats are also con- both the Flood inquiry and, of course, the cerned with item 13 of this bill, which seeks parliamentary joint committee. The Flood to amend the definition of ‘permanent resi- report states: dent’ that is currently defined according to Our liberal democratic society demands that all section 4 of the ASIO Act. People in Austra- elements of government are accountable. Austra- lia on temporary protection, student or busi- lians are entitled to be confident that government ness visas and asylum seekers and other de- institutions are operating according to law, under tainees will continue to remain outside the the authority of ministers, and that they offer minimum safeguards offered to Australians. value for money, efficiency and effectiveness. The implications of this amendment are that Intelligence agencies are no exception. Indeed, the privacy rules under section 15 do not these obligations are, if anything, higher in rela- apply and that the need to obtain a ministe- tion to intelligence agencies than other branches rial authorisation under section 8 does not of government. With the capacity to infringe on apply. Further, the committee cannot review citizens’ privacy and to undertake acts that with- an activity of the intelligence agencies that out specific legislation might be unlawful, Austra- lians are entitled to expect that intelligence col- does not affect an Australian person under
CHAMBER 8 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 lection agencies are properly scrutinised and held like to see the crossbenches represented on to account. that committee. Hear, hear! The Australian Democrats recog- The Democrats have long contended that nise that, because of the very nature of the the bipartisan—certainly not multiparty and agencies, the accountability and oversight arguably unrepresentative—nature of this system regulating intelligence agencies will committee places the entire crossbench in a differ. It will be different, arguably, from that very difficult position in considering many of for other government agencies. However, the proposals contained in this bill. Our role this does not mean that accountability or as legislators is arguably compromised if we oversight cannot be strengthened. In fact, I do not have sufficient access to information think there has never been a more important when making decisions in this place, whether time in Australia’s history to ensure that we it is on legislation, policy or other matters. have great and proper scrutiny. This need not be the case. It is entirely pos- The Democrats do recognise the need for sible to provide intelligence briefings to non- parts of the intelligence function to remain government members of parliament without secret and recognise that public disclosure of compromising national security. the technical capabilities of the agencies I made it very clear recently that I did not would, in some cases, certainly limit their expect—and I knew there was no statutory usefulness. But it is vital that accountability obligation for—ASIO or the government to and oversight are strengthened. Items 41 to brief the Democrats, the Greens or other 51 of the bill extend the mandate of the cur- crossbench members on the issue of Scott rent Parliamentary Joint Committee on Parkin. I understood that there was not an ASIO, ASIS and DSD to cover DIGO, DIO obligation. But, as I maintained in that case, and ONA, with a name change of the com- surely he and his lawyers should know the mittee to the Parliamentary Joint Committee issues. Surely a better way of dealing with on Intelligence and Security, the PJCIS, and this, and it is something the Democrats have a membership increase from seven to nine. discussed, is having a representative on the The Democrats have said before that we joint committee. That is one way of ensuring support an increase in the membership of that that party or that person, or indeed the that committee. Certainly, we are willing to crossbenchers as a whole, has some access to support an expansion of the mandate of the information that would better inform them committee. I think that is an appropriate and when commenting on or making decisions worthy aim. However, because of the impor- about national security. Having said that, tance of this committee, we believe that the please do not think for a moment that I en- membership should include representation dorse in any way the appalling decision that by crossbenchers—that is, minor party was made in relation to Scott Parkin and the and/or Independent representatives. Given lack of information that was provided to the the outcome of the recent COAG meeting people who were at the heart of that case, and the apparent willingness of the opposi- including him. tion to allow any intrusive bill through under This bill also provides for a new deputy the coverall of counter-terrorism, I think that chair of the committee on intelligence and further representation is a matter of urgency. security. However, I note that the bill pro- I impress upon the government our support vides for that position to be filled by a gov- for the increased mandate—but we would ernment member. I do not know if you, Mr
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 9
Acting Deputy President Brandis, or anyone The Democrats welcome the expanded else in this place can give me an example of role of the inspector-general provided for in where this has happened before. I think it is this bill—specifically the provision for the quite extraordinary that section 16 stipulates initiation of own-motion inquiries into the that the chair must be a member of the gov- Office of National Assessments and the De- ernment. So we will have a situation where fence Intelligence Organisation, and the both the chair and the deputy chair of a power to enter any place where a person is committee are government members. I think being detained under division 3 of part III of it is the first time in parliamentary history the ASIO Act, for the purposes of an inspec- that that has occurred. I would like to know tion or an inquiry. The expanded role and the government’s justification for that posi- increased powers that this bill would give to tion, and I look forward to an explanation the inspector-general appear to provide a step from the minister in the committee stage of towards greater accountability, with the pos- the bill. sible exception of inaction on reports. I am wondering how that decision suppos- The agencies charged with the oversight edly enhances the bipartisan nature of the of our intelligence services need to be inde- committee and its deliberations. This is not pendent of government direction, well coming from the interests of the crossbench; funded and well resourced. While this bill this is coming as a member of opposition provides for an expanded role for both the parties in this place. Surely the opposition joint committee and the inspector-general, will be opposing that particular part of the there are still unacceptable limitations on bill. I wonder: is it a manic drive for com- their ability to perform their roles. It is ri- plete control of the legislative process? I diculous to pretend that the office of the in- note, however, that there are some amend- spector-general will be able to adequately ments from the government which have just maintain the level of oversight that is re- been circulated in relation to 64A. They are quired with its current staff of five and its repealing the subclause substitute, so it is up current limited budget. I am not sure what to five; it is not changing the first four provi- proposals the government are putting for- sions that are in that bill. I look forward to ward, but if they are seriously committed to the government explanation. improving the accountability of the intelli- The Democrats believe this bill should gence services then I am sure they will pro- also reflect the other issues that have been vide more assistance and more funds and raised by the committee in its annual report resources for rigorous and comprehensive of 2004-05, particularly in relation to the oversight. classified annual reports of each of the agen- This bill does require further amendment. cies and the removal of the restriction on In line with the recommendations made by disclosures to parliament about ‘the conduct the joint committee in its review of the Intel- of Australia’s foreign relations’ from clause ligence Services Legislation Amendment Bill 7. The committee continues to be limited 2005, item 64 of schedule 1 should be because of its terms of reference. They ex- amended to remove the requirement that the tend only to the budget and administration of deputy chair be a government member. The the agencies, not to policy and operational Democrats also believe that joint committee activities. membership should be expanded to include crossbench representatives, and, in order to better fulfil its oversight role, the committee
CHAMBER 10 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 should be allowed access to the classified mentary Joint Committee on ASIO, ASIS annual reports of each of the agencies. There and DSD. also needs to be better protection for non- Together these reviews represent the most Australians in line with international human comprehensive evaluation of Australia’s in- rights obligations and a greater clarification telligence services since the Hope royal of the meaning and desired outcome of a commission of the 1970s—and one feels number of the amendments. bound to say that they were not before time. The Democrats also note comments made I listened with interest to Senator Stott De- by Christopher Michaelsen of the Strategic spoja’s remarks that the Flood inquiry had and Defence Studies Centre in Canberra, not been adequate or far ranging. It seems to who pointed out that, because Australia does me to be quite the contrary, and that, in fact, not have a bill of rights or a human rights the Australian people were well served by act, there would be no impediment to the the extent of Mr Flood’s inquiry. He did a extension of the agencies’ powers. I think the very comprehensive job in a relatively short Australian government must ensure that all time and he made some important recom- possible measures are taken to ensure the mendations for change. privacy and security of Australians—that is, The inquiries took place well before the making sure that the changes that we are see- recent terrorist attacks in London and, most ing in the name of countering terrorism are recently and tragically, in Bali on Saturday. balanced appropriately with safeguards and In both of these attacks Australians were in- protections. I look forward to a debate in this jured and, in the latter, three and perhaps place at some stage on a bill of rights. I think more Australians were killed. These were it is a debate whose time has come. Certainly brutal and cowardly acts that served to re- it is one that I and the Democrats look for- mind us that the scourge of terrorism is very ward to playing a role in. close at hand and very close to home and Senator TROOD (Queensland) (10.08 that, more than ever, Australia’s intelligence am)—The Intelligence Services Legislation services play an absolutely critical role in the Amendment Bill 2005 seeks to implement front line of defending Australia, its citizens changes to several statutes relating to the and our interests abroad and at home. administration of Australia’s intelligence I strongly support most of the changes agencies. The proposed reforms are the proposed by the bill. I believe they will product of three inquiries or reviews. The serve, as the minister said in his second read- first was a broad-ranging inquiry into Austra- ing speech, to strengthen the contribution of lia’s intelligence services conducted by Mr sound intelligence to the development of Philip Flood in 2004 at the request of the Australian government policy. I note that we Prime Minister, which was prompted in part are not talking just about policy in relation to by the intelligence shortcomings revealed counter-terrorism. The intelligence agencies over the Iraq intervention. The second was a have a much wider remit, and these changes review coordinated by the Department of the will affect national security issues much Prime Minister and Cabinet as a result of more broadly. They will touch upon matters suggestions contained within the recent an- such as the weapons of mass destruction, nual report of the Inspector-General of Intel- border protection, Defence Force operations ligence and Security. And the third was a and transnational crime in all of its numerous review of the bill conducted by the Parlia-
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 11 and seemingly endless and expanding vari- It has agreed to most of the reforms recom- ants. mended by the other inquiries. The bill touches on the activities of all six In the time available, I would like to of Australia’s intelligence agencies: the De- comment on three broad issues raised by the fence Intelligence Organisation, the Office of bill and by the inquiries that gave rise to it. National Assessments, ASIS, ASIO, DSD The first of these is in relation to legislative and DIGO. Two of these agencies, ONA and oversight. The Flood inquiry recommended DIO, are assessment agencies; the others are that all Australia’s intelligence agencies be collection agencies. Whether one or the subject to the scrutiny of the parliamentary other, all demand high analytical and techni- joint committee and that its name be changed cal skills and a great degree of professional- to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on In- ism for them to serve their cause. The work telligence and Security to reflect the widened is often more art than science and, in a dy- mandate. The effect of this reform would be namic regional and international environ- to bring ONA, DIO and DIGO under the ment, the challenges of timeliness, useful committee’s remit for the first time. This is insight and accuracy are often immense. an important reform and one I greatly wel- Despite these challenges, Mr Flood con- come. It will increase the workload of the cludes that for the most part Australia’s intel- committee, but provision is being made in ligence agencies are performing their duties the bill for an extension of the number of very effectively. He notes that they represent committee members, and I think that will a potent capability for government. He notes adequately meet the challenges the commit- that they have adapted well to the new chal- tee will now face with its expanded work- lenges of contemporary international affairs load. and, particularly importantly I think, he notes There is a world-wide trend in the parlia- that they remain independent of political in- mentary democracies, evident in places like fluence. Nothing is more potentially corrupt- the United Kingdom and Canada, for agen- ing of an intelligence service than the danger cies to be subject to greater public scrutiny. that it may fall prey to the expectations of its This process is increasingly important, I political masters. I think Mr Flood was very think, particularly at a time—as Senator Stott reassuring by underlining the point that these Despoja has remarked—when governments agencies remain independent of that political are increasingly keen to increase the powers influence. of some agencies to take steps which may Nevertheless, he remarks that he believes well impinge upon citizens’ privacy and civil that they can do better. To that end, he has rights. The reforms intended by the bill will recommended a range of reforms to enhance enhance the committee’s important role and their effectiveness. The most significant of will reinforce Australia’s place, I think, at the these recommendations is that the number of forefront of international trends to improve ONA staff be doubled and that there be a procedures for parliamentary oversight. substantial increase in its funding. I note that One place where oversight is more thor- the government has accepted this recom- ough than it is in Australia is, of course, the mendation fully. Indeed, the government has United States. But this is a very different accepted all of the Flood recommendations, jurisdiction, where very different kinds of but for one or two of relative unimportance. constitutional arrangements apply, and I think it would be highly unrealistic to con-
CHAMBER 12 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 sider the possibility that the committee might area of analysis, to the detriment of its pri- extend its powers in quite the same way as mary responsibility—strategic intelligence committees do within the United States Con- analysis for the ADF. I share Mr Flood’s gress. concern over this matter. Long-term strategic As strong as it is, however, there are some analysis is a critical element of intelligence, shortcomings in the oversight process, and and running it down has, potentially, very mention is made of this in the committee’s serious consequences for the nation. So I 2003-04 annual report. One matter relates to share Mr Flood’s concern but, regrettably, I questions of definition and another to the am not entirely confident that he has found presentation of the Defence Signals Direc- the best solution to overcome it. Essentially, torate’s budget. There are other mentions in he recommends that DIO pare back its stra- relation to the intelligence agency’s report. tegic reporting and analysis to matters di- The committee is quite frank when it re- rectly related to the military and defence marks that these limitations affect its capac- needs of the ADF. Secondly, he suggests that ity to work effectively. I would encourage ONA be required to take the matter of long- the government to respond positively to the term strategic analysis more seriously and changes the committee requests. devote more resources to the task. Thirdly, he rejects the proposal apparently made by Overall, however, Australia’s experience one of his interlocutors during the course of of legislative oversight is, I think, very posi- his inquiry that DFAT be given greater re- tive. So far, the committee’s history has been sources to take on this strategic role. one of making a very responsible contribu- tion to improving public policy and, I think I have the greatest respect for Mr Flood. most importantly, this contribution has been He has had a distinguished career in foreign made on a cooperative, bipartisan basis. The affairs and elsewhere. He has a great deal of committee deserves encouragement for the professional experience, and I value his continuation of this work from both inside judgment—in fact, I respect it greatly. But I and outside the parliament, and I would en- believe his view of this matter is perhaps ill courage members of the committee to seek advised. As assessment agencies, there is, of ways in which this can be done responsi- course, an obvious need for DIO and ONA to bly—consistent with the unique demands undertake strategic analysis that feeds di- that their position places upon them. rectly into defence reviews, white papers, strategic policy statements and the like. But The second broad issue that I would like there is another need, and that is the national to address is the matter of long-term strategic requirement for there to be an agency that analysis. The Flood report is replete with will be an independent source of advice, references to the serious decline in the re- providing a strategic view of longer-term sources devoted to this important facet of global trends that may have an impact on intelligence. On page 16, for example, the Australia’s security and foreign policy inter- report refers to the loss of diplomatic report- ests. ing capability within the Department of For- eign Affairs and Trade and, later, to ONA’s The advice should cover fields as broad as relative neglect of this form of analysis under strategy, politics, economics, science and pressure of other priorities. technology, the environment and the law. The key question is how developments in The report points out that the Defence In- these areas are going to intersect with, and telligence Organisation has moved into this perhaps shape, the national strategic goals
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 13 and ambitions of Australia and how they will completely separate portfolio, perhaps DFAT. impact on our national interests—not today, There it would be free of the constraints that not tomorrow, but five or 10 years down the have inhibited ONA’s capacity to undertake track. The analysis must remain policy fo- the work. The new agency would develop its cused and it has to be contestable among own innovative techniques of analysis, estab- other agencies. It is the type of strategic lish a research agenda independent of the analysis that requires comprehensive treat- tyranny of the short term, have easy access to ment of complex and often distant trends— the richness of DFAT’s global diplomatic not in the few succinct paragraphs or pages reporting, subject its work to the contesta- of the typical ONA briefing, but at a delib- bility of other agencies and comfortably erative length. It is the kind of work that, at draw in the expertise of knowledgeable out- times, might easily benefit from the sharing siders as circumstances demand. There are of ideas with outsiders in the public domain. numerous models around the world on which As the Flood report notes, ONA has to base this kind of agency. tended to depreciate the value of this kind of I acknowledge that agencies can adapt to analysis in recent years. Its recent institu- new challenges. ONA could well change in a tional culture has inclined towards the pro- way that exhibits the confidence that Mr duction of short, focused forms of analysis. Flood has shown in it. I will certainly watch These are in the form of current intelligence developments with interest. But I must say I reports, current assessments, watch reports, am apprehensive about it being able to make warning reports and the like. They are as- those changes and I think we probably need sessments which reflect a short-term or a to rethink that particular element of the pro- more immediate policy challenge—perhaps posal. in response to a specific ministerial request, The third issue I would like to raise or as part of a standard, regular briefing. Se- quickly relates to the matter of the public and crecy and confidentiality are, rightly, an ele- outside experts. There are numerous places mental and organic part of the work. in the Flood report where it refers to the po- The qualities of these reports help to un- tential for value adding to intelligence and derpin the universally high regard in which national security assessments through greater ONA’s analytical capabilities are held. They agency contact with the public and outside are the foundation of the professionalism experts. This is an observation that I believe with which it fulfils its primary mandate. The should be taken seriously. Most of these preparation of periodic longer term strategic agencies have a very poor record of outside assessments that are supposed to be part of contact. They are loath to engage the public ONA’s mandate has been largely overlooked. and particularly academe, where experts may This suggests, to me at least, a number of reside. I realise that going to outsiders is not things: overwork and other priorities, or per- easy for agencies, whose natural working haps a strong institutional culture of doing culture is secrecy and whose workload dead- one form of analysis over another. lines make severe demands on time. Of Rather than leave all strategic assessments course, public engagement often carries with ONA, I believe a more satisfactory so- some risks, though governments almost al- lution would be to establish a relatively small ways overstate them. But we have an ex- agency specifically mandated to undertake traordinary abundance of knowledge and long-term strategic analysis and situated in a expertise in our universities, in think tanks, in professional associations and elsewhere.
CHAMBER 14 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Much of this expertise is focused on the environment will not diminish; if anything, Asia-Pacific region, where our national secu- they are likely to intensify in the future. rity interests are concentrated. A great deal of Senator FERGUSON (South Australia) the expertise is actually policy oriented. (10.27 am)—I rise to speak to the Intelli- If these resources were more effectively gence Services Legislation Amendment Bill employed by government, they could be of 2005. Can I say at the outset that I am disap- immense value to the development of na- pointed that Senator Ray is unable to con- tional security policy. They would add tribute to this debate, but it is not his fault. knowledge and insight and, I think, just as As a member of the parliamentary Joint importantly, a further measure of contesta- Committee on ASIO, ASIS and DSD he bility to agency analysis. Given the intelli- makes an enormous contribution because of gence shortcomings over Iraq, this is perhaps his experience in this field, having been an a critical requirement for the future. inaugural or foundation member in the ref- In the context of establishing more sus- ormation of that committee. As a former de- tained and systematic interaction and dia- fence minister and as someone who is now in logue between governments and academe, I opposition he understands much better than welcome an initiative recently undertaken by many others the role of the committee—and the ANU and Griffith University to establish the role that members who have oversight of the Australian Council of Strategic Studies. the intelligence operations in this country are One of the roles of the council is to engage required to play. While this not a reflection regularly with government on topics of mu- on Senator Mark Bishop, who is here as tual interest. I understand that several round- shadow minister, can I say that Senator Ray’s table discussions have already taken place vast experience in this field had a lot to do and that all parties, including participants with the presentation of the report put down from several government agencies, have re- by the joint committee after looking into this garded them as very valuable encounters and bill, which we were asked to do by the Sen- they promise a great deal of contact in the ate. future. This kind of activity highlights the This report follows a long line of unani- point that, if agency officials and analysts mous reports from the Joint Committee on can be stirred from their comfort zones ASIO, ASIS and DSD. I doubt that there are within government, there are considerable any other committees in this Senate or in this rewards to be had. Academics, generally parliament that can say that, throughout their speaking and in my experience, are keen and duration, they have presented to the parlia- enthusiastic about making a contribution. ment nothing but unanimous reports. The This bill will secure a long overdue reno- fact that this committee has done so is a fair vation of Australia’s intelligence services. As indication of the cooperation and bipartisan- Mr Flood points out, generally the nation is ship of both opposition and government well served by the dedication and profes- members in looking at this very important sionalism of existing staff. They often work issue of the intelligence operations, the intel- in difficult circumstances and in difficult ligence community and the government environments. The changes in the bill will agencies that are involved in the collection of enhance agencies’ effectiveness. We need intelligence throughout Australia. It is also that because the challenges of securing our an indication of the fact that, over that long national interest in the current international period of time, we have always come to an agreement and presented unanimous reports.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 15
It does not mean that every member on the organisations which see raw intelligence, we committee is enthusiastic about every rec- as members of the committee do not. I repeat ommendation that is made, but we have con- that it is the view of the committee that we sensus on every occasion that this is a gener- do not want to, because that would not only ally held view amongst the committee and put an added responsibility onto the commit- we feel that it is in the interest of the Austra- tee but would also mean that there would be lian parliament and the Australian people different and conflicting assessments being that we as an oversight committee present to made by the analysts within the intelligence this parliament unanimous reports wherever community and members of parliament, par- possible—and we have always done that. ticularly where there are opposition and gov- Much has been said about the membership ernment members involved. We think that of the committee and the role that it plays. It the oversight that we have at present, which may have been mentioned by Senator Bishop is set down in legislation, is the way that we and was certainly mentioned by Senator Stott would like it to be, and we are certain that Despoja. We have contact with a number of there is no inclination from any members of intelligence committees around the world. the committee to change our system to one We meet with them whenever they visit Aus- like the British intelligence committee where tralia or occasionally when there are confer- they all have top vetting and security clear- ences that are held world wide. They vary in ances. the composition and the nature of the role The Parliamentary Joint Committee on that they play. The intelligence committee ASIO, ASIS and DSD has been very busy in that we have had the most contact with is the the last six months because, apart from this British intelligence committee. The differ- bill, a review of part III division 3 of the ence between the role of that committee and ASIO Act and a number of reviews of terror- our committee is that every member of the ist listings that have taken place, it has had a British intelligence committee is security- very heavy workload. I have been the acting cleared. They have a top vetting, are secu- chair of this committee in the absence of the rity-cleared and have access to raw intelli- chair, the Hon. David Jull, who we hope will gence which they can then use in determina- be back soon. I certainly hope he will be tions at any future stage when they have in- back soon because it would relieve me of quiries into any specific matters, like the Iraq one of my responsibilities as chair. The WMD inquiries, for instance. committee has been very active. We do not do that in the Australian par- I want to say two things about our rela- liament. We do not have security clearances, tionship with the intelligence organisations so as members of the committee we do not that we currently have the oversight of, par- have access to raw intelligence. I say that it ticularly ASIO, ASIS and DSD, and particu- is the view amongst members of the commit- larly our relationship with these organisa- tee that we do not want to have access to raw tions during Dennis Richardson’s period as intelligence, because we believe that that is the head of ASIO. Of course, he has only the role of the assessment agencies. It is the recently gone, so we have only just com- role of somebody independent and outside of menced work with the new Director-General the political system to be able to provide ad- of ASIO. I think that the information that he vice that they have been able to form from and others have supplied to the committee the information supplied to them by intelli- has on many occasions been over and above gence agencies. Unlike ONA, DIO and those the requirements under the act. Dennis
CHAMBER 16 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Richardson, the head of ASIS and others initial form, recommended that a government have taken the committee into their confi- member be deputy chair as well as having a dence and supplied us with information government member as chair. The committee which is probably outside of the area in in its report identified that this is an area in which they are required to supply us in order which we thought there should be some for us to make a much better informed de- change. As happened in Mr Jull’s absence, a termination on some of the issues that we government member was then elected as act- have to report to this parliament on. We ap- ing chair of the committee until his return. preciate that. I am quite sure that, while the I can understand the reluctance of the committee continues to have never leaked government, in the case of a committee any information and while the organisations where the numbers are so finely balanced, to have confidence in the committee, that sort have a situation develop where the govern- of arrangement will apply. I know that I and ment does not have the numbers on that all the other members of the committee have committee purely because of the absence appreciated the way in which the heads of through illness or otherwise of the chair. those various agencies have taken the com- There have always been four government mittee into their confidence. members and three opposition members on I noticed that Senator Stott Despoja talked that committee up until this stage, and so we about a number of things that were added to thought a way around that, which I am what is contained in this bill. She talked pleased to say the government has taken up about the Flood inquiry not being broad and incorporated, is to appoint a deputy chair enough and then got into the stage of a hu- from the opposition. But if the chair is absent man rights bill and a whole range of other when a vote might be required or for a pro- things. The Flood inquiry was very helpful to longed period—I think the amendment talks us when we were conducting our own in- about an absence of more than a month— quiry into changes that should be made to the then the committee shall appoint a member Intelligence Services Act. It is pleasing that of the government as an acting chair. I think practically all of those recommendations it is an important change because for all have been taken up by the government. other meetings I see absolutely no reason at A number of recommendations which are all why an opposition member should not be quite important to the running of the commit- a deputy chair of that committee. So that is tee have been taken up. One is the expansion what the government is proposing and it has of the committee to nine people. One of the taken up the recommendation that was put in real problems that we have had with a com- our report where we said: mittee of seven arises when one or two If the Chair is not present at a deliberative members cannot attend for various reasons, meeting— as happens because senators in particular are In other words, one where a vote was on a number of committees. Senator Ray was taken—and I have never been at a meeting the only opposition senator on the commit- where we have had a vote. We have never tee. We had no provision to set up subcom- got to the stage of ever voting on issues in mittees and there was no provision in the this committee because, as I said, we have original act for a deputy chair of the commit- always through consensus come up with tee. I raise that issue in relation to the deputy unanimous reports. The report says: chair because Senator Stott Despoja was quite critical of the fact that the bill, in its
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 17
If the Chair is not present at a deliberative cluded in one of our reports as a comment. meeting of the Committee or is absent for a pro- One of the problems in having access to longed period, the members present are to appoint classified reports comes down to the fact of a Government member to preside and the member whether or not we are security cleared. In so appointed may exercise, in relation to the some cases, comment and issues that are meeting, any of the powers of the Chair. raised that are classified and in the classified The government in its wisdom has seen fit to annual report means that sometimes it is dif- define that a bit more clearly and they have ficult for intelligence agencies to fully in- suggested that instead of a deliberative meet- form those people to whom the classified ing they have called it ‘a meeting where a report has to go of all the information if they vote is being taken’ and instead of saying for know it is going to be more widely read. a prolonged period they have said ‘for a pe- While I appreciate Senator Bishop’s point of riod of one month’. I think it is a very good view and what he raised in his opening re- compromise and I am very pleased that they marks, I think that there is not a strong feel- took up the unanimous recommendation that ing about this amongst our committee. we made as a committee. As I said earlier in my contribution, over- Senator Stott Despoja also raised the issue all the committee is very happy with the co- of membership of the committee and that operation that it receives from those people there should be a crossbench member on the who are in charge of the various government committee. That is an issue that was actually intelligence agencies. If there was a limita- discussed and, like many committees in this tion and we felt that we were not getting in- parliament, the view held by all members formation that we should be getting under was that the membership of the intelligence the statute of the act, then I am quite sure services committee should reflect the num- that someone on the committee would say bers in the parliament. As it is a joint com- so. Sometimes it takes a bit longer to get in- mittee, which means that there are both formation than we would like, but in general members of the House of Representatives terms each of the agencies has always pro- and the Senate on this committee, even by vided information on the sorts of issues that increasing it to nine, the numbers of minor we have raised. parties or Independents were not great enough to warrant proportionately member- I want to also make specific comment on ship of this committee. Of the 226 members I the ministers involved to whom the agencies think it is in the parliament, it means that are responsible. In relation to the Attorney- there would be a ratio when there are nine on General and the defence minister, we have it of something like one to every 25 or 26 had enormous cooperation when we have members, and there are not nearly that many asked for the appearance of people who in crossbench or Independent members com- one case were outside of our bailiwick. They bined in both houses. were not covered by the ASIO, ASIS and DSD agencies and we were inquiring into a Senator Bishop raised in his initial contri- bill and some other things. When we had the bution the issue that was raised in one of our WMD inquiry the minister made available reports about access to classified annual re- people who under the act were not necessar- ports. This is a very difficult issue for the ily required to come and give us evidence. committee and one where there was not as We are very appreciative of the cooperation strong a feeling amongst some members as we have had from both the AG and from the there was amongst others, but it was in- defence minister in particular in relation to
CHAMBER 18 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 people we could talk to to try and gather as Margaret Swieringa, and others who were much information as possible to be able to helping her—some on short-term contracts make the most well informed decision in with security clearance. With the hours that reporting to this parliament. It is important they spent going through papers and prepar- that when we do report to the parliament we ing the reports, sometimes with two reports do so with as much information and knowl- going at the same time, I think they have edge as we possibly can. done an outstanding job. Were we to have The review that we did as a committee on had a bit of a lull in the number of inquiries, this bill was done mostly on papers that were the amount of legislation and the reviewing presented to us. We have been through so of listings that we have had in the last six many inquiries in recent times over a whole months, I am sure they would appreciate it. range of issues. We had the agencies con- But I do want to place on record in the par- cerned come and talk to us because we have liament the outstanding commitment that increased the oversight of the committee to they made to this committee and the enor- include DIGO, ONA and—I have to remem- mous amount of reading and the workload ber the other one; I have to get this right. It that they had to endure to make sure that we now covers those six agencies rather than the could present these reports to the parliament five that we have always— on time. Senator Bob Brown—The DIO. I commend this bill to the Senate. I think it makes some very important changes to the Senator FERGUSON—Thank you, Intelligence Services Act. I am very pleased Senator Brown. I thought it was the DIO that the government has seen fit to support originally but thank you for the help. I many of the changes that we as a committee needed it. DIO, DIGO and ONA are now recommended. included so that there are six agencies which the committee now has oversight of. I think Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) it is important because it does put all the (10.46 am)—I will not speak for my full time agencies that are currently involved with our on the Intelligence Services Legislation intelligence operations under the one com- Amendment Bill 2005 but I do think it is mittee oversight. We are very pleased that, appropriate to take the opportunity to put a having gone through the process of review- few further comments on the record from the ing the act and the recommendations of the point of view of the Democrats. The bill in Flood report and then reporting to the par- itself, in as much as it deals with matters re- liament, the recommendations that we have lating to the activities and role of the parlia- included in here have, by and large, been mentary committee that oversees intelli- accepted in the manner in which they were gence, is understandable and makes some presented by the committee. reasonable changes, although I think some of the specifics of those can still do with some I also thank the committee staff for the further elaboration in the committee stage. enormous amount of work that they have done over the past six months. It is a tremen- But I do think we need to recognise that, dous load. The staff, as can be expected, are whilst there is a parliamentary committee security cleared. A couple of staff left during that oversees the activities of various intelli- the period in which we were working on gence agencies, its ability to properly or fully both this bill and some other work, which put monitor the activities of the intelligence an enormous workload on the secretary, agencies only goes so far. The fact is that it
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 19 can only go so far. Intelligence is one of often be put on the record, so that Australians those areas where it is clearly not possible to do not forget—because it is easy to forget— have the same degree of open scrutiny that that this government used intelligence agen- you have and need in most other areas of the cies to monitor activities of Australians and activities of government. That is simply a non-Australians, and monitored communica- reality of the nature of intelligence. I believe tions almost certainly with a foreign gov- we can do better at scrutinising it. In as much ernment and certainly with foreign compa- as the committee can do better with that then nies that owned the Tampa. It quite clearly that is good. But the fact is that it is impossi- used that information for political purposes. ble to fully scrutinise intelligence matters in It is a matter of public record that lawyers the way that can be done for other areas of who were seeking to contact refugees on that government activity. ship had their communications monitored. It Unfortunately, intelligence is also an area is almost certain that lawyers for the com- which can provide some of the most wide- pany communicating with the company and ranging powers that government officials can with the ship were monitored by intelligence undertake that affect Australians and, indeed, agencies and reports were passed on to gov- everybody else. This difficult-to-resolve di- ernment. Clearly, when you have that sort of lemma creates a fundamental situation fundamental breach of legal professional where, in this area more than anything else, privilege around stuff that could not in any you have to rely on trust. I think the commit- way be seen as a threat to national security, it tee members, as far as I know them, are ca- shows a government that is willing to use its pable people. Whilst my political views are a powers and its intelligence agencies for po- fairly long way removed from Senator Fer- litical purposes. guson’s and Senator Ray’s, I do have a fair The fact that a report was done by Mr degree of respect for their ability and integ- Blick later the next year, in 2002—a report rity and the way they approach their job. I do which was not comprehensive in its scope not in any way seek to reflect on the abilities and was also not ever publicly released in its or work of the committee. I am not sure who totality—should not be used to negate the the other Senate member is but certainly I fact that intelligence was misused. The bits know Senator Ferguson and Senator Ray are of Mr Blick’s report that were made public on that committee. clearly indicated that some Australians were But the fact is the committee can only do inappropriately monitored by various secu- so much. You do have to rely on trust and rity agencies. But, frankly, for me, it is not Australians have to rely on trust in the area just a matter of whether or not those agencies of intelligence. I am afraid to say that the acted within their legal powers because, par- evidence is clear that this government cannot ticularly given many of the changes since be trusted. Why do we know that this gov- and many of the changes that have now been ernment cannot be trusted not to misuse its floated by state as well as federal govern- powers? Because it already has form. It al- ments, they probably will have more and ready has a record of grossly misusing its more of those powers; it is what the informa- powers. Part of the genesis of some of the tion is used for and whether Australians can changes that have come through in this bill be confident or anybody can be confident— stems back to what this government did and Australians and non-Australians—that secu- what intelligence agencies did with regard to rity agencies will not be used for political the Tampa over four years ago. It needs to purposes. It is quite possible that they can do
CHAMBER 20 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 that within the law as it currently stands. We make that subtle transition to deeming oppo- really have to rely on governments not to nents of the government by definition to be abuse the power that they are given through opponents of the country or opponents of the intelligence laws. state. We are seeing more and more signs of It does have to be re-emphasised and re- that old attitude reappearing in regard to in- stated that the government have shown that telligence agencies as well. Mr Beattie, who they are willing to misuse information from specifically acknowledged that the proposed intelligence agencies for political purposes. I changes coming up are draconian, to use his will not go into the side issue of the debate own words, somehow thinks that they are around the Tampa and the way this govern- nonetheless necessary—powers that Mr ment treated and still treats refugees, asylum Bjelke-Petersen back in the 1980s would seekers and a whole range of other people have gone to any lengths to give himself. who come under the scope of the Migration Broader issues surrounding intelligence Act, because that is moving away from the have to be raised here; issues that are broader purpose and the focus of this legislation. But than just the scope of this legislation. The if people are concerned about whether this parliamentary committee, as far as I can tell government can be trusted with wide-ranging looking from outside the committee, seems powers, police and intelligence powers, and to do a fairly good job. The people whom I to not misuse them for political purposes, the know on the committee are quite capable, record already shows that they have misused committed and genuine. However, there is a their powers. They are quite willing and pre- genuine concern that the Democrats have pared to do so for clearly political purposes, long expressed about the lack of crossbench even in cases involving people and situations representation on the committee. I take Sena- that are not a security threat to Australia at tor Ferguson’s point about the composition all. That is why there is such a degree of ap- of the parliament and the maths of it, and he prehension amongst many in the Australian is right if you look at it proportionately. I community about further intelligence laws think there are 12 non-major party MPs in and further so-called security laws, because the federal parliament. Proportionately, that we know we are giving them to people who would not entitle you to a position, even if cannot be trusted to not misuse them for po- you expanded the committee to nine. I can litical purposes. certainly also assure the government that I I have to take the opportunity as a Queen- am not looking for any more committees to sland senator to express my extreme disap- go on; I have got more than I can manage as pointment in the Queensland Premier, Peter it is. The point about this issue is that it is Beattie, and his willingness to go along with important for legislators to be confident in an further surrendering our freedoms and fur- area that relies on trust. It is important that ther weakening our democracy. Mr Beattie, people from as wide a range of viewpoints as of all people—he grew up as I did in the possible feel that confidence. Bjelke-Petersen era—knows what happens I think the lack of crossbench minor party when police agencies and intelligence agen- representation, or whatever you want to call cies are misused for political purposes. He it, on the parliamentary committee is a prob- knows how innocent lives are damaged and lem. I know Senator Ray has acknowledged destroyed as a result of the misuse of police this in the past as well. He also made the powers. He also knows how easy it is for same point that Senator Ferguson made. governments, whether state or federal, to They are valid arguments. But, as I said at
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 21 the start, this is a unique area. Because of its been witness to and part of gross misuse of uniqueness, I think there is an extra argument intelligence powers for political purposes. to be put for a range of views and formal They are people who, in many cases, have representation from as wide a group of peo- fled extremely tyrannical regimes and have ple as possible and, therefore, I would be already been victims of political persecution. quite willing to countenance some other They, more than anyone else, should be enti- compensatory measures to reduce cross- tled to feel they have some degree of protec- bench representation on other committees, if tion under Australian law from being sub- that assisted the situation. I think this is a jected, once again, to misuse of the powers valid point that should not be brushed aside of police and intelligence agencies. simply by resorting to mathematics, calcula- For those who want to look at this issue in tors and percentages. This issue is perhaps further detail—who do not just want to take more important than most. Having said that, my word for the statements I have made you could have wide and fulsome representa- about the government’s willingness to mis- tion on that committee, but I do not think it is use its powers under the law and, I would ever going to be in a position to guarantee argue, outside the law—I recommend they that the activities of intelligence agencies are read the book Dark Victory by Marian Wil- not misused for political purposes. kinson and David Marr. I think it is one of I am particularly concerned about the the best and most comprehensive outlines scope, including within this bill, for protec- detailing what happened through the period tions that apply to permanent residents of the Tampa and afterwards. It has a politi- within Australia not to apply to others within cal partisan perspective, but the specific de- Australia. I say this from a migration per- tails and facts it contains are very shocking spective. I very strongly support a large mi- and should continually be put back on the gration intake, but we need to acknowledge record to remind Australians of the lengths that for a number of years now the traditional this government is willing to go to in abusing migration intake—that is, permanent resi- its powers for political purposes and the peo- dents—which is currently quite large by his- ple it is willing to damage along the way if it torical standards is still dwarfed by the much thinks there is a political advantage to it. We larger number of people who come here as should not forget those abuses of powers. temporary residents. Economically and so- Otherwise, we are leaving ourselves wide cially, as a direct consequence of government open for it to happen again. policy, we have dramatically expanded the Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) number of people who arrive in Australia as (11.01 am)—The Australian Greens support temporary residents. Many of them go on to the Intelligence Services Legislation Amend- become permanent residents, but the major- ment Bill 2005 but feel it should have gone a ity do not. They are students and they are lot further in guaranteeing that the impor- business people in particular. Of course, we tance of the intelligence services to our de- have the disgrace of refugees who are still mocratic society is in enhancing the security stuck on temporary visas. None of those of the country—but not at the expense of our people have the protections that apply in this democracy and our liberties. legislation to permanent residents. In the committee stage of the bill I will I particularly single out refugees on tem- ask questions about the inspector-general’s porary protection visas because of the point I office, including the ability of the inspector- made earlier—that those people have already
CHAMBER 22 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 general to undertake the current watchdog is little reference indeed to the ability for role over security agencies in the country, let parliamentary scrutiny outside of the desig- alone—on the face of it—the doubling of nated committee. that job now that three other agencies which I note that Senator Stott-Despoja’s pro- work primarily outside the country are to be posal that there be a committee person who taken into the inspector-general’s bailiwick. I is not from the two big parties was given understand the office has four staff. I will short shrift by Senator Ferguson in his con- find out whether or not that is the case in the tribution. He said that there are not enough committee stage. We see that this bill is members of parliament on the crossbenches revenue neutral. It does not give any further or amongst the Independents in the House of facility to the inspector-general’s office, and Representatives to warrant that. That is a it is patently obvious that it should. fault of the electoral system. There are cer- The second point of concern is the inde- tainly enough voters who support alterna- pendence of the Office of the Inspector- tives to the coalition or the Labor Party to General. The inspector-general is appointed warrant a representative of those voters be- by the Prime Minister, not by the parliament. ing on this committee. It is of concern that that is the case. It should Senator Trood said—or used words to this be a proper statutory appointment with a re- effect—‘I think it would be quite inappropri- view by the parliament. The question that ate for us to give the committee the same again arises is: who watches over the watch- powers as those in the United States and dog? We have a committee, which has been elsewhere.’ Really? I think that, in the ab- talked about in the speeches in this second sence of a bill of rights in this country and in reading debate, but it should be a matter for the absence of a constitutional backup for the discussion whether, for example, we ought rights of citizens, we have an even greater not have an independent review mechanism need to be able to scrutinise the intelligence of the inspector-general’s role by eminent agencies to ensure that they are not cutting citizens. Jurists, for example, could have across the democratic civil, political, reli- matters referred to them. gious and other rights of individuals in our The very first sentence of the second read- country. The need is even greater. ing speech of the Minister for Justice and Since coming into this parliament, I have Customs reads: been consistently concerned that there is a The Intelligence Services Legislation Amendment cringe mentality about our intelligence ser- Bill 2005 will assist in strengthening the contribu- vices. I noticed in the contribution from tion of sound intelligence to government decision Senator Ferguson we had the view that the making and operations. committee has been taken into confidence by That is well and good, but in that rests the ASIO. Really? Are we as legislators, as the kernel of concern that I have. This is about elected representatives in a democracy, as the strengthening the government’s decision absolute power base when it comes to super- making and operations. Senator Bartlett, who vising intelligence agencies, not able to in- spoke before me, raised the concern that the quire into every corner of those intelligence intelligence agencies can become, more and agencies? Of course we must be able to do more, operations for the government rather that. That there are limits under legislation is than for the country, for the nation—and that a concern in itself. Senator Ferguson said means rather than for the parliament. There that there have not been any leaks from that
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 23 committee—nor should there be. The trust were told would not be made public. Then must be in the elected representatives of par- the part of the ASIO assessment that was liament to be able to investigate and to know thought to be inimical to Mr Parkin’s case— about what is happening in every corner of that he was a peace activist—was leaked on the intelligence agencies, if our democracy is the front page of the Australian newspaper. going to have a capital D and if the parlia- Anyone who looked carefully at that leak ment is going to be the centre of the watch- could see that the claims against Mr Parkin dog of the electorates and the rights of the were not that he had said anything that was people of Australia. We cannot leave that in untoward and certainly not that he had done any area to unelected, and therefore non- anything that was other than peaceful; it was responsible, members of the intelligence alleged that he was going to say that people community. They are there to defend the in- ought to think about putting marbles under terests of this country and all of its citizens, police horses at protests or to get people out but there is a worrying trend—the way the of an arrest situation. Mr Parkin was going to world is not working at the moment—in leg- say in fact nothing of the sort. islation coming through this parliament and Mr Parkin has made it very clear that he our sister parliaments in similar democracies hates cruelty to animals and is not in favour to hand more powers to people who are not of attacking the police going about their du- elected against the interests of the electors of ties as required under the laws of a country. our countries. But he was given no opportunity to put his I am grateful to Senator Milne for a copy case in our country. He was deported from of the front page of the United Kingdom’s this country on fabricated gossip or deliber- Daily Telegraph of a week ago, Thursday, ate misinformation. Who made the decision 29 September: ‘Heckler, 82, who dared to to deport him? The Prime Minister of this call Straw a liar is held under terrorist law’. country did—or at least he endorsed it. It Here we have at the Labour Party conference would not have happened without that en- in Brighton an 82-year-old gentleman, Mr dorsement and it would not have happened Wolfgang—who left Germany before mid- without there being extensive communica- century to go to Britain—being arrested and tions between Canberra and Washington. No issued with a section 44 stop and search form US citizen would have been deported from under the Terrorism Act because, in response this country without the say-so of Washing- to the asseveration of Britain’s minister for ton—that is, the Bush administration. foreign affairs that Britain was in Iraq ‘for What needs to be looked at there is that one reason only’, to help the elected Iraqi Mr Parkin is a very well-informed and intel- government, Mr Walter Wolfgang shouted, ligent critic of the Bush administration—not ‘That’s a lie and you know it.’ He was bun- least the Vice President of the United States, dled out and arrested, as was somebody else, Dick Cheney. Why? Amongst other things, who said, ‘Leave that old gentleman alone.’ Mr Cheney is the former CEO of Hallibur- They were arrested in Britain. ton—a mega armaments manufacturer that is What about Australia? An American citi- making billions of dollars out of armaments zen came to this country a few weeks ago to and, amongst other things, the invasion and talk about peace. He is an activist for occupation of Iraq. Mr Parkin was a thorn in peace—very much in the tradition of Martin the side of the Bush-Cheney administration. Luther King and Gandhi. He was summarily That is why the Howard government had him arrested and deported for reasons that we arrested and deported. I would be interested
CHAMBER 24 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 to know whether any government member, which Australians hold dear, and which in- including the Minister for Defence, who is deed are incorporated in our Constitution, sitting opposite, can come forward in this must not be allowed to proceed lightly. The parliamentary debate with a cogent other role of the Inspector-General of Intelligence explanation for what happened. What I do and Security is a very important one, but know is that the leaking of the trumped-up how well is it protecting us from political charges against Mr Parkin which appeared in decisions—or the failure of political deci- the newspapers was itself against the law in sions—made on the basis of intelligence? this country. I stand for the newspaper’s right Let me draw the Senate’s attention to the to print information given to it, but that is case of Chinese diplomat Chen Yonglin, who very different to the leaking of information defected to this democracy of ours a couple for political purposes against a political op- of months back but who, in the process, had ponent. his whereabouts—or at least the fact that he Mr Ben Oquist, who formerly worked for had defected—implicitly handed across, me and now works for Ian Cohen, the Greens against the law, to what is a police state: the member of the upper house in New South Chinese government in Beijing. Wales, wrote to the inspector-general after I have no evidence—and certainly it has these events, calling for an inquiry. He re- not come from the Minister for Foreign Af- ceived a letter back yesterday from the in- fairs—that the minister did not discuss with spector-general, as I did, saying that he had the Chinese Ambassador on 2 June, just after referred the matter of that leak to the Austra- Chen Yonglin’s defection, the matter of Chen lian Federal Police. It is a very serious mat- Yonglin and what would happen to him when ter, and one would expect that the Federal he went back to China. In the absence of a Police will have total access to both the At- denial from Foreign Minister Downer, we torney-General’s Department and the Prime must assume that that conversation took Minister’s office and staff to find out exactly place. That is a breach of our nation’s laws, a who had that information. It is a very serious very serious matter—because it was politi- matter indeed when trumped-up information cally driven, if it happened, because this like that appears in the public arena and it is government did not want to be embarrassed most likely it came from the office of the by Mr Chen Yonglin’s defection when it is chief law maker in this country, the Attor- considering a free trade agreement with ney-General. It is very serious and danger- China. The ways of a police state are moving ous, and no stone should be left unturned in in on the ways of an open, free and safe de- bringing to book the people responsible for a mocracy. There are questions there that have process that can only be seen as similar to been left unanswered and which should be what happens when trumped-up charges are answered by the ministers responsible. used to vilify people who stand for democ- What of the matter of East Timor and that racy and liberty in police states. sterling member of our defence forces Lance Draconian laws are being brought in to Collins, who after a lot of travail brought defend us from terrorism, and healthy debate forward what we now know to be the fact takes place in democratic parliaments about that intelligence was denied to the Australian the checks and balances involved there. The defence forces for a period of time in East checks need to be very clear and very ade- Timor because somebody in Canberra de- quate, because the erosion of the rights cided that it would not go forward? The in- which make our democracy and the liberties spector-general has found that that charge is
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 25 in fact true. But who was responsible for thank them for their contribution to this bill making that decision in Canberra that our and also for the work that they have done in forces in the field would be denied intelli- scrutiny of our intelligence agencies since gence? If serious charges like that are made, 2001 under the existing legislation. then those responsible for either breaking the The bill will enhance and strengthen the law or endangering Australians looking after existing regime. At a time when good intelli- the interests of this country should be gence is possibly as important to Australia as brought to book. But no, they are defended it has ever been, it is an endorsement of the by a secret process and, I must say, by too important role that these agencies have in our many parliamentarians who feel it is not our society. Also, it is an endorsement of the role responsibility to go looking into intelligence of parliament in relation to providing an services. For some reason or other, many oversight of such organisations. The relation- parliamentarians feel that this process could ship and the responsibilities of the executive not be trusted. It is the essence of a democ- vis-a-vis the parliament in relation to intelli- racy. We have to have the maturity and the gence agencies is not one of absolutes. In responsibility to be able to acquaint our- some ways this bill reflects a shared respon- selves with what is happening in the intelli- sibility. The government still has the respon- gence services and know that that is informa- sibility of governance but the parliament has tion that we have to keep to ourselves. This assumed a right—and we respect that right— committee, as Senator Ferguson said, has to provide a scrutiny of the agencies as well. done that well. There have not been leaks. And that is enhanced and strengthened in this I maintain that we have an increasingly legislation. Beyond the parliament, of political use of intelligence—and I have not course, we have other levels of scrutiny, such got onto the matter of SIEVX, another case as the inspector-general, who is also to be where intelligence that we should know commended for his oversight of the work of about has not been brought to public atten- these agencies and for the element of public tion—under a mistaken concept. Intelligence confidence that that adds to this debate. I is not the prerogative of government; it is the thank honourable senators for their support prerogative of the parliament acting on be- for the legislation and I look forward to the half of and in the best interests of the Austra- committee stage. lian people. Question agreed to. Senator HILL (South Australia— Bill read a second time. Minister for Defence) (11.21 am)—I thank In Committee honourable senators for their contributions to this debate. The Intelligence Services Legis- Bill—by leave—taken as a whole. lation Amendment Bill 2005 builds on the Senator HILL (South Australia— intelligence services legislation of 2001. It Minister for Defence) (11.24 am)—I table a has resulted, firstly, from the advice given by supplementary explanatory memorandum Mr Philip Flood in his 2004 inquiry into relating to government amendments to be Australian intelligence agencies and, sec- moved to this bill. The memorandum was ondly, from the government’s review of the circulated in the chamber on 5 October 2005. operations of that 2001 legislation. Our Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) knowledge has been benefited by the contri- (11.25 am)—I ask the minister: could he out- bution also of the Parliamentary Joint Com- line to the committee the wherewithal of the mittee on ASIO, ASIS and DSD, and we
CHAMBER 26 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 office of the inspector-general? How many responsibilities very effectively. So, if that is staff are there? What is the allocation? How of any assistance to Senator Brown, I think has the government assessed that the in- that illustrates one example where the re- creased responsibilities of the inspector- sources certainly seemed to be adequate for general which are inherent in this legislation the task. are going to be carried out without an in- Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) crease in the wherewithal of the office? (11.27 am)—On the face of it, when you Senator HILL (South Australia— extend the overview of the inspector- Minister for Defence) (11.25 am)—I do not general’s office from three to six agencies, in know the budget or the staffing levels of the particular the agencies operating outside of office of the inspector-general, but I do know the country, then there should be an in- the inspector-general and, if he felt that he creased capacity in the office. It is logical was unable to meet his responsibilities effec- that that should happen. I ask the govern- tively because of a budget issue, I have full ment to look at that. The minister referred to confidence that he would raise that with gov- the Collins outcome whereby the inspector- ernment. Certainly, in my experiences of the general did find that intelligence had been office—which includes a number of indi- denied to the peacekeeping force, the Austra- viduals who have held that office and their lians in the field, in East Timor. It is very accounting to the Senate’s legislation com- germane to this. There is not much point in mittee in estimates—it seems to me that the having an inspector-general’s office if find- inspector-general has been able to fulfil ef- ings like that are made and there is no conse- fectively the references that have been re- quent action. I ask the minister: could he tell ferred to him. This certainly gives him in- the committee who was responsible for de- creased capability in terms of initiating his nying our forces in East Timor the intelli- own references, but I have no reason to be- gence that they should have had, albeit for a lieve that there is any reason of budget or small but critical period of time? What action staff that would see him being unable to meet has been taken not just to ensure that that that responsibility. does not happen again but to ensure that the Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) person or persons responsible have been (11.26 am)—If the minister does not know properly dealt with? what the budget is, could he find out and Senator HILL (South Australia— inform the committee? Could he also find Minister for Defence) (11.29 am)—I refer out about the staffing levels and the staff Senator Brown to the report of Mr Carnell, make-up of the inspector-general’s office? which was publicly released. The report was Senator HILL (South Australia— an abridged version in terms of removing Minister for Defence) (11.27 am)—I have matters which were of security consequence been advised that he has six staff. I also or which were in breach of privacy princi- know that he is supported by others when ples. But it quite clearly set out the circum- necessary. Senator Brown made reference to stances of that loss of access, and it made one IGIS inquiry in relation to Mr Collins. I clear that it was a decision taken and made certainly know that other agencies supported by certain officials. It was not in that report, the inspector-general in his work on that in- but in my covering statements I advised the quiry. That was a difficult and complex in- public that action had been taken against the quiry, and he certainly was able to meet his individuals under the Public Service Act, and the matter had been thus completed.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 27
Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) Senator HILL (South Australia— (11.30 am)—I do not agree with the minister Minister for Defence) (11.34 am)—There are that the matter has been completed. We have several questions from Senator Brown. In an Australian soldier, an officer, who stood relation to the first, I repeat that disciplinary up not just for his country but against an in- action was taken under the Public Service justice done in an area where it was very Act against those who took and implemented difficult to pinpoint who had done it and why the decision to cut off that particular intelli- it had happened. I ask the minister: has gence channel. As Senator Brown would Lance Collins been given the information learn if he read the report of Mr Carnell, the about how it happened? And what remedia- intelligence was nevertheless not seen as tion has there been? The minister says that relevant to the tactical decisions that the the officials who acted wrongly in terms of force required in East Timor. There were that intelligence shutdown on the defence other avenues of intelligence being provided forces in East Timor have been dealt with. I to meet that responsibility. Nevertheless, the think we ought to have a much clearer ex- circumstances in which the full story was not planation of the way in which that dealing- disclosed to the previous inspector-general, with has been carried out. Mr Blick, were particularly disturbing. That On the other side of the coin, what has the is what led to the disciplinary action being government done to make up for the travail taken. of Lance Collins? Here is a brave and intelli- Can I assure the Senate that there will be gent Australian who went through a lot of no further misdemeanours by any public of- pain—one can only imagine it—to insist that ficials? I cannot give that assurance, but I a wrong be righted, despite the fact that he think it is highly unlikely. Our intelligence was rejected and, as is so often the case with agencies are very professional. They com- people who make a stand like this, not prise men and women who are committed to thought the better of in some quarters. But he public service. They do a good job for our was shown to be right. In particular, one has community. But they know as individuals to laud the courage and persistence he that, if they make mistakes, there will be showed. consequences associated with those mis- I ask the minister: understanding what takes, and that is what has occurred on this Lance Collins has been through, what has the occasion. government done to ensure that restitution Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) has been made for his contribution to making (11.35 am)—I come back again to the case sure things are right and effectively his con- of officer Lance Collins. We have to take on tribution to the safety of Australians in the the minister’s say-so what he says about the field, in order to see that this does not hap- unnamed people in the intelligence services pen again—that intelligence is not denied to who cut off the intelligence. The minister people who are in the field in the service of says that on this occasion it fortunately did this country? What has the government done, not make a difference to outcomes in East if not to reward Mr Collins then at least to Timor. One can only imagine circum- make up for all he had to go through to get stances—and they were not in the hands of justice, and not for himself but for the de- those who made the wrong decision here— fence forces he has so strongly stood up for? where it would have made a big difference. What has the government done there?
CHAMBER 28 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Lance Collins had to persist against an tablished that this intelligence stream had for earlier finding that the minister has referred a short time been deliberately cut off. to that he did not have a case. Because he As I said, particularly in relation to the was an honourable man and was determined fact that certain officials had not been fully that the truth would not be swept aside, he forthcoming in relation to that information— did persist and he was vindicated. But you do not so much in relation to the decision to not go through years of fighting against an terminate that particular intelligence stream, array of people who effectively say that you which is a different issue, but in dealing with are not telling the truth or you are making the inquiry of Mr Blick—disciplinary action something up, and you do not persist against was taken under the Public Service Act. Mr an inquiry by an inspector-general which Collins certainly was vindicated in that his finds that you do not have a case, to the point belief that this intelligence stream was delib- where there is a reopening of the inquiry and erately cut off turned out to be the case. If he you are found to be right, without very great had not persisted in that belief, it is true that personal sacrifice being involved. I ask the we may never have found out the truth—we minister: what has the government done to would have simply relied on the statutory make up for the personal sacrifices of this declarations that certain officials had given honourable and sterling Australian? Is the earlier. government not motivated to understand that Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) a man or a woman who makes a stand like (11.40 am)—I make a suggestion to the min- that must be not just vindicated but also re- ister through the chair: monetary considera- warded to make up for all they have been tions, recompense, is a matter that the gov- through? That is very important. What has ernment ought to look at. I am speaking of been done to ensure that officer Collins has what I know from the public record, but it had recompense for the honourable stand he would seem to me that there must have been took? costs involved which ought to be looked at. Senator HILL (South Australia— However, much more important than that— Minister for Defence) (11.38 am)—I do not because we are dealing with, again, an hon- know what sort of recompense Senator ourable person who went through a terrible Brown is talking about. Certainly officer ordeal—is to insist not just that the truth Collins, as has been referred to, persisted in come out but that Australian service people his belief that the intelligence had been de- in the field not be again put in the situation liberately switched off, and the subsequent where intelligence operations are cut off for inquiry of Mr Carnell found that that was the some reason—and there is not a good rea- case. That is not to criticise the previous in- son—back here in Canberra. I suggest that quiry. Mr Blick relied on certain statutory the Prime Minister call in officer Collins, declarations and did not believe that he shake his hand and thank him for standing up needed to go beyond them. I must say that I for our country and for the truth. I think the do not think that was an unreasonable posi- symbolism of that would go a long way to- tion to take. But, when the matter was further wards making us all feel that when people pursued and the subsequent official, Mr Car- follow through on their honest beliefs in the nell, did go beyond the statutory declarations way he did they will be rewarded. and, with the help of Defence, was able to I want to also ask the minister about the reconstruct the computer records, it was es- matter of Mr Scott Parkin. Can he give an
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 29 explanation to the committee for the arrest which he has denied absolutely, and which is and deportation of Mr Parkin, other than that patently false. There may be some other rea- which was released to the Australian news- son there. But if Australians are going to be paper last week? assured that people in this country who ad- Senator HILL (South Australia— vocate peace, but who might upset either this Minister for Defence) (11.42 am)—I am not government or the US government in the sure about what was released to the Austra- process, are not going to be arrested in their lian newspaper. I do not have a brief on the beds, the government has got to be more circumstance in which his visa was can- open with the public than this. One thing we celled. I understand that it related to security do know is this: whatever Mr Scott Parkin concerns. I therefore presume that advice may have been alleged to be doing which was given by agencies which caused immi- may have been a threat to the security of this gration authorities to withdraw the visa and country, publicising it was not going to, of his right to be in Australia in the interests of itself, threaten the country. Australian security. If Senator Brown wants In the United States there would be a more than that, I will refer it to the immigra- much more open parliamentary process than tion minister, but I suspect the response this. In the United States it is the congress might be that it is inappropriate to put more that determines the President’s declaration of than that on the public record. war. We do not have that in this country. It is Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) not in our Constitution. (11.43 am)—That raises the question of how Senator Stott Despoja interjecting— appropriate it is for somebody in the gov- Senator BOB BROWN—Senator Stott ernment to release the information about Mr Despoja does have a private member’s bill Parkin that was printed in the Australian. on this. I will be supporting that bill, because How appropriate is it for selected informa- it is fundamental that, in a democracy, the tion—which is on the face of it wrong, vili- representatives of the people, not a minority fying and misrepresentative information—to of them in another place—and that means the be given into the public arena by the gov- Prime Minister’s office—declare war and ernment? It did not come out of thin air. As I send our Australian fellow citizens into a said in the second reading debate, I believe it theatre of war. The parliament should deal came from the Attorney-General’s office. with that matter, as is done in the United Unless we get evidence otherwise—and I States. should tell the committee that I will be mov- We do not have a bill of rights. We are, I ing for an inquiry by a Senate committee into think, one of only about two countries—of this affair; and I will put forward a motion on similar democracies—that do not have a bill that later in the day—I believe the govern- of rights. So it is all the more important that, ment does need to give the people of Austra- when it appears that a terrible wrong has lia a better explanation of what happened. been done, we do get from government a Everywhere I have been in the last couple clear explanation. And this is the place to do of weeks, people have asked me how, in our it. democracy, this advocate of peace could be As to the arrest and deportation of Scott arrested and deported, on nothing more than Parkin, not only is it a terrible wrong but he what we saw leaked from the ASIO assess- has got legal costs, and he was flown out of ment—which was inimical to Mr Parkin, this country ignominiously with a security
CHAMBER 30 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 officer on either side and then sent a bill for he would not be politically motivated in that. What a travesty. There are echoes in this making such a decision. He would be acting of burning witches at the stake. There are upon advice, and that advice is given by offi- certainly echoes of the McCarthy period in cials who certainly have no political interest the United States. And we must not allow or bias but who give that advice on the basis wrongdoing like that—not by Mr Parkin but of their professional knowledge and experi- by those who decided he should be arrested, ence. A visa is not a right—it is a privilege, and that is the Attorney-General, the chief and if there is security advice that is incon- law officer of this country—to go unques- sistent with that visa then action might flow tioned. It is not only our right, it is our re- from it. sponsibility to have questions answered on In relation to the leak of information, that. which Senator Brown alleges is from a secu- I ask the Minister for Defence, represent- rity agency, that is a very serious allegation. ing the Attorney-General, to give this com- Senator Brown has said that the inspector- mittee an explanation as to why Mr Parkin general has referred the issue to the police was deported from this country. Secondly, I for investigation, and I would respectfully ask him to give an explanation of how that suggest that Senator Brown should await the leak of trumped-up information about Mr results of that investigation. Parkin went into the public arena—‘from Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) ASIO’, for goodness sake! I do not believe it (11.51 am)—I ask the minister: could he out- came from ASIO. I believe it came from the line to the committee, in our open, democ- briefing process where ASIO gave the in- ratic chamber, what communications the formation to the government and the gov- government had with the Bush administra- ernment leaked it. That is very, very danger- tion and its agencies about Mr Parkin before ous. That has to be questioned and pursued. he was deported? Who is next if we do not pursue it? Senator HILL (South Australia— I ask the minister to explain to this com- Minister for Defence) (11.51 am)—I know mittee, here and now, what warranted Mr of no communications with the United Parkin being summarily arrested and, with- States. Although now is not really the appro- out any trial in our country, deported. Yes, he priate time, if Senator Brown is asking that had his visa removed. I ask the minister to that matter be referred to the Attorney- explain that to this committee, or explain General, it can be referred to the Attorney- what is to be done to rectify the travesty, the General. injustice to Mr Parkin and to the Australian Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) people, in front of our 20 million pairs of (11.52 am)—Yes, I do ask the minister to ask eyes, when he made a political decision—not that question of the Attorney-General and to a security decision; it ultimately had to be a report back to the committee or to the Sen- political decision by the ministers in- ate. volved—to have him arrested and deported. Please explain that. Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- tralia) (11.52 am)—Has the government Senator HILL (South Australia— moved the amendments yet? Minister for Defence) (11.50 am)—I do not represent the Attorney-General, but I do re- Senator HILL (South Australia— spect the Attorney-General and I know that Minister for Defence) (11.52 am)—I was waiting for an appropriate time. By leave—I
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 31 move government amendments (1) and (2), Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) as circulated: (11.53 am)—Just before we get into the de- (1) Schedule 1, item 64, page 14 (line 19), omit tail of the amendments, I ask if the minister “Government”. could give an affirmative answer to the (2) Schedule 1, page 14 (after line 28), after chamber on the question I asked about refer- item 64, insert: ring the matter of Scott Parkin to the Attor- 64A Subclause 17(5) of Schedule 1 ney-General and getting a response for the committee or the Senate; will he do that? Repeal the subclause, substitute: (5) If: Senator HILL (South Australia— Minister for Defence) (11.53 am)—I am (a) the Chair is not present at a meeting happy to refer the questions asked in this of the Committee; and committee debate by Senator Brown to the (b) either: Attorney-General and see if he wishes to (i) the meeting is one at which a respond. I think, if he does, an appropriate question is to be decided by vot- time for me to respond would be after ques- ing, or could reasonably be ex- tion time when I have such a response. So it pected to be so decided; or is a little out of order but, always wanting to (ii) throughout a continuous period be cooperative and helpful, I will see of more than one month immedi- ately preceding the day of the whether the Attorney-General wishes to pro- meeting, the Chair was absent vide information to the Senate on this matter. from duty or from Australia, or Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- was for any reason unable to per- tralia) (11.54 am)—I refer the government to form the duties of his or her of- its amendments just circulated. I note in the fice as Chair; bill’s EM just tabled that in the last sentence, the members present are to appoint a in paragraph 1 under the heading ‘Outline’, it Government member to preside. says: (5A) If: The Bill will be amended to reflect the substance (a) the Chair is not present at a meeting of this recommendation. of the Committee; and This refers to recommendation 1 of the re- (b) the members are not required by view of the bill by the Parliamentary Joint subclause (5) to appoint a Govern- Committee on ASIO, ASIS and DSD. The ment member to preside; recommendation was to use these words: then: If the Chair is not present at a deliberative meet- (c) if the Deputy Chair is present at the ing of the Committee— meeting—the Deputy Chair is to that is the first point— preside; or (d) if the Deputy Chair is not present at or is absent for a prolonged period … the meeting—the members present That is the second point. I want you to ad- are to appoint a member to preside. dress both those points. I ask the government (5B) A member who presides at a meeting of for some guidance as to why the amendment the Committee under subclause (5) or before the chair refers to, firstly, a meeting at (5A) may exercise, in relation to the which a vote is taken and, secondly, substi- meeting and any matter arising out of tutes ‘one month’ for ‘absent for a prolonged the meeting, any of the powers of the period’. What is the reasoning behind the use Chair. of those words, as opposed to adopting the
CHAMBER 32 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 words that were in the committee’s recom- Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- mendation? My understanding was that, tralia) (11.58 am)—Just briefly, the Democ- firstly, it was a unanimous recommendation rats support these amendments. You would by both government and opposition members have heard in my comments in the second and, secondly, the words were worked out in reading debate the opposition we had to the the negotiation process. The government has notion that the deputy chair be a member of chosen to accept in substance the recom- the government—something that I think is mendation but has a different form of words, unprecedented in relation to a committee of and I was wondering if an explanation could this type but also because the committee be provided to the committee as to the mean- structure and its work has relied upon, as ing of the words that I identified in the Senator Hill pointed out, that bipartisan, amendment. happy nature. I get to the point of the spirit Senator HILL (South Australia— of bipartisanship, because I much prefer Minister for Defence) (11.56 am)—I should cross-party committees—and I mean ‘cross’ say for the benefit of Senator Mark Bishop in a very happy way—that is, allowing for that, as I understand it, these government the multiparty democracy that is represented amendments have been agreed with Labor and reflected in this chamber. I think, if we members of the committee and came out of are talking about a significant and appropri- discussions subsequent to the joint commit- ate expansion of the mandate and member- tee’s recommendations. My recollection is ship of the committee, then those changes that the original bill provided for the deputy should incorporate a member or members of chairman to be a member of the government. the crossbenches in this place so that we are It was suggested to the government that that able to appropriately fulfil our job as legisla- was not in the bipartisan spirit in which this tors, particularly when it comes to matters of committee operates—and it has operated national security and/or importance. very effectively in that regard. I am not suggesting that all members and As the debate developed, it was then senators obtain classified or national security pointed out that on occasions of deliberative briefings on occasions—far from it. You meetings leading to votes, and those sorts of would have heard a number of times in the situations, it might even be awkward for the chamber that I have well and truly recog- opposition to find itself in the deputy chair nised that we do not always need briefings, position and it might well be more appropri- nor should we be allowed access to briefings ate that it be a member of government. on operational and other security matters. Therefore, this compromise set of words was However, I think an important step in the devised which will allow a member of the right direction would be to incorporate a opposition to be deputy chairman of the crossbench member into this new joint committee. But, for a deliberative meeting or committee. That is a position that the De- where the chair has been away for a signifi- mocrats have held for a long time. I hope the cant period of time, a member of government government will consider that. Obviously, could take that chairing responsibility. I am that is not going to happen today, but this not sure I am answering the questions that amendment is certainly a good step as I think were asked, but I hope this background is it was pretty appalling for the government to useful. I will leave it at that, I think. scoop up the leadership positions, for lack of a better phrase, on the committee—that is,
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 33 the positions of deputy chair and chair of the question as to the reasons for the change in committee. wording in the two paragraphs from the rec- As for Senator Bishop’s point on leaving ommendation of the joint committee. As I out in one case the use of the word ‘delibera- recall, the minister responded that the detail tive’, I hear Senator Hill’s comments. I do of the amendment had been through discus- not want to misrepresent you, Minister, but sions with opposition members of the com- you did suggest that the opposition might be mittee. I have no reason at all to doubt the ‘uncomfortable’ in chairing a committee or a veracity of that response, and that is an ac- meeting of that kind. I think that was your ceptable explanation in answer to my query. terminology. Just quietly, I am not sure if the Question agreed to. opposition would feel that uncomfortable, so Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- I am a bit surprised that Senator Bishop on tralia) (12.03 pm)—by leave—On behalf of behalf of his colleagues is not pushing that the opposition, I move opposition amend- change of wording a little further. This is ments (1) to (7) on sheet 4696 standing in certainly a start, because the other proposal my name: was completely outrageous. (1) Schedule 1, page 5 (after line 21), after item Again, I put on record that this committee 15, insert: is a bipartisan committee. That may sound 15A Section 3 nice and happy, but it is not good enough. It Insert: is not good enough when we are talking about important and serious issues to do with security has the same meaning as in the Australian Security Intelligence Or- this nation’s security and our intelligence ganisation Act 1979. services. To exclude from that committee (2) Schedule 1, page 7 (after line 21), after item members of minor parties or even Independ- 23, insert: ents and thus the crossbench, is outrageous particularly at a time when Australians are 23A At the end of section 9 calling for greater accountability and greater Add: scrutiny. If the government is committed to (6) The responsible Minister must notify ensuring that there are safeguards and pro- the Attorney-General within 24 hours tections in place, particularly with the raft of of giving an authorisation under this legislation that it is about to introduce in the section for an activity, or series of ac- tivities, of a kind mentioned in sub- name of countering terrorism, then it will paragraph 8(1)(a)(i) or (ii). include multiparty representation on this committee, otherwise I have no doubt that (7) The responsible Minister must notify the Attorney-General in writing and Australians will continue to be somewhat must specify the facts and other sceptical about these oversight mechanisms grounds on which the responsible Min- in committees as they currently exist. ister gave the authorisation. Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- (3) Schedule 1, page 8 (after line 6), after item tralia) (12.01 pm)—I do not want to unnec- 24, insert: essarily prolong discussion on this point, but 24A After section 9 I should respond to the point raised by Sena- Insert: tor Stott Despoja. She was raising a query 9B Warrants about a question I asked of the minister. I note for the record that I asked the minister a The relevant agency head of ASIS, DSD and DIGO must obtain a warrant
CHAMBER 34 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
from the Attorney-General under sec- (c) there are satisfactory arrangements tion 9C before: in place to ensure that the nature and (a) undertaking an activity, or a series consequences of acts done in reli- of activities, for the specific pur- ance on the warrant will be reason- pose, or for purposes which include able, having regard to the purposes the specific purpose, of producing for which they are carried out; intelligence on an Australian person the Attorney-General may, by war- who is in Australia; or rant under his or her hand, subject to (b) undertaking, in accordance with a any conditions or restrictions that are direction under paragraph 6(1)(e), specified in the warrant, authorise an activity, or a series of activities, the relevant agency to undertake the that will, or is likely to, have an ef- activities of a kind mentioned in fect on an Australian person who is paragraphs 9B(a) and (b). in Australia. (3) Before the Attorney-General issues a (4) Schedule 1, page 8 (after line 6), after item warrant under this section for an activ- 24, insert: ity, or a series of activities, of a kind mentioned in paragraph 9B(a) or (b), 24B After section 9 the Attorney-General must also: Insert: (a) be satisfied that the Australian per- 9C Issue of warrants son mentioned in either of those (1) A request by the relevant agency head paragraphs is, or is likely to be, in- of ASIS, DSD and DIGO for the issue volved in one or more of the follow- of a warrant in respect of activities in ing activities: paragraphs 9B(a) and (b) must specify: (i) activities that present a signifi- (a) the facts and other grounds on cant risk to a person’s safety; or which the relevant agency head con- (ii) acting for, or on behalf of, a for- siders it necessary that the warrant eign power; or should be issued; and (iii) activities that are, or are likely to (b) the grounds on which the relevant be, a threat to security; or agency head considers that the issue (iv) activities related to the prolifera- of the warrant advances Australia’s tion of weapons of mass destruc- national security interests. tion or the movement of goods (2) Where, on receipt by the Attorney- listed from time to time in the General of a request by the relevant Defence and Strategic Goods List agency head for the issue of a warrant (within the meaning of regulation under subsection (1), the Attorney- 13E of the Customs (Prohibited General is satisfied that: Exports) Regulations 1958); or (a) any activities which may be done in (v) committing a serious crime by reliance on the warrant will be nec- moving money, goods or people; essary for the proper performance of or a function of the agency concerned; (vi) committing a serious crime by and using or transferring intellectual (b) there are satisfactory arrangements property; or in place to ensure that nothing will (vii) committing a serious crime by be done in reliance of the warrant transmitting data or signals by beyond what is necessary for the means of guided and/or unguided proper performance of a function of electromagnetic energy; or the agency; and
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 35
(viii) an activity or activities that are, 24D After section 9 or are likely to be, a threat to se- Insert: curity (whether or not covered by another subparagraph of this 9E Issue of subsequent warrants not pre- vented paragraph in addition to subpara- graph (iii)). (1) Subsection 9D(3) does not prevent the issue of any subsequent warrant. (5) Schedule 1, page 8 (after line 6), after item 24, insert: (2) Before a subsequent warrant can be issued, the relevant agency head must 24C After section 9 again comply with subsection 9C(1). Insert: (7) Schedule 1, page 10 (after line 6), after item 9D Content of warrants 36, insert: (1) The Attorney-General may issue a war- 36A At the end of section 15 rant following a request in accordance Add: with section 9C in relation to: (7) The retention of incidentally obtained (a) an activity, or class of activities, intelligence concerning Australians that specified in the warrant; or is not publicly available, must be (b) acts of a staff member or agent, or a minimised. class of staff members or agents, specified (whether by name or oth- I want to place a few remarks on the record erwise) in the warrant; or with regard to these opposition amendments. (c) activities done for a particular pur- As we acknowledged, this bill has been pose connected with the agency’s given fairly thorough scrutiny by the joint functions. parliamentary committee, as we would ex- (2) A warrant is subject to any conditions pect, but we do note in passing that the gov- specified in it. ernment has chosen to ignore one of the committee’s recommendations on matters (3) A warrant must be in writing and must specify how long it will have effect. arising out of the bill. Accordingly, these The period of effect specified in a war- amendments seek to implement the commit- rant for an activity or a series of activi- tee’s recommendations, particularly with ties, of a kind mentioned in subpara- regard to the issue of warrants—hence the graph 8(1)(a)(i) or (ii), must not exceed amendments that have been circulated in my 6 months. name. (4) A warrant issued in accordance with The first amendment relates to the need to section 9C may be revoked by the At- include within the act a definition of the torney-General at any time before the word ‘security’. The opposition believes that end of the specified period of effect. the term ‘security’ should have the same (5) If the Attorney-General issues a war- meaning as in the Australian Security Intelli- rant under this section in relation to an gence Organisation Act 1979. In particular, agency, the relevant agency head must ensure that a copy of the warrant is the definition of security is most relevant in kept by the agency and is available for amendment 29 of the bill, which proposes to inspection on request by the Inspector- add a new subsection 11(2AA) in the follow- General of Intelligence and Security. ing terms: (6) Schedule 1, page 8 (after line 6), after item After subsection 11(2) 24, insert: Insert:
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(2AA) An agency may communicate inciden- (vi) acts of foreign interference; tally obtained intelligence to appropriate Com- whether directed from, or committed within, monwealth or State authorities or to authorities of Australia or not; and other countries approved under paragraph (b) the carrying out of Australia’s responsibili- 13(1)(c) if the intelligence relates to the involve- ties to any foreign country in relation to a matter ment, or likely involvement, by a person in one or mentioned in any of the subparagraphs of para- more of the following activities: graph (a). (a) activities that present a significant risk to a person’s safety; Incorporating that wording into the intelli- gence services bill is therefore appropriate. (b) acting for, or on behalf of, a foreign power; (c) activities that are a threat to security— The second set of amendments concerns the issue of warrants. Our view is that the ‘security’ being the keyword there— committee’s views are relevant and ought to (d) activities related to the proliferation of be put in the bill to put some limits on the weapons of mass destruction or the movement of government’s new powers. There was exten- goods listed from time to time in the Defence and sive discussion by the committee, and its Strategic Goods List (within the meaning of regu- lation 13E of the Customs (Prohibited Exports) deliberations are recorded at pages 11 and Regulations 1958); 12—paragraph 2.27 on page 11 through to para 2.36 at the bottom of page 12. It had (e) committing a serious crime. been my intent to read those paragraphs into We believe that leaving that term undefined the record, but for the sake of time I would will potentially give the proposed subsection seek leave of the committee to incorporate 11(2AA) unacceptably broad operation. Just paras 2.27 up to and including 2.36 on pages as ‘foreign power’ has been defined in terms 11 and 12 of the parliamentary joint commit- of the Australian Security Intelligence Or- tee report. I seek leave to do that as opposed ganisation Act 1979, we think it is similarly to reading out the entirety of those two appropriate to define the term ‘security’ in pages. terms of that act. This gives the proposed Leave granted. subsection an operation that correlates to the use of equivalent powers by ASIO. Our ar- The document read as follows— gument is that it is appropriate in itself, and 2.27 The amendment in Schedule I Item 22, de- we note that our reasoning is entirely consis- letes the word “who is overseas” from the tent with the unanimous view of the joint current legislation. As a result, ASIS, DIGO parliamentary committee. and DSD will be required to seek a ministe- rial authorisation to produce intelligence on For the benefit of senators interested in an Australian person, whether that person is this debate, the definition of security in the overseas or in Australia. ASIO Act is as follows: 2.28 The ISA defines the functions of ASIS and (a) the protection of, and of the people of, the DSD, and the bill legislates the functions of Commonwealth and the several States and Terri- DIGO (as well as clarifying the roles of ASIS tories from: and DSD). For all three agencies, key func- (i) espionage; tions include obtaining ‘intelligence about the capabilities, intentions or activities of (ii) sabotage; people or organisations outside Australia’ (iii) politically motivated violence; (paragraphs 6(1)(a) and 7(a) and the pro- (iv) promotion of communal violence; posed 6B(a)). In the case of ASIS, it is also (v) attacks on Australia’s defence system; or tasked with undertaking ‘such other activities as the responsible Minister directs relating to
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 37
the capabilities, intentions or activities of quire the agency to obtain Ministerial au- people or organisations outside Austra- thorisation for the investigation. lia.’(paragraph 6(1)(e)). 2.34 Before issuing an authorisation the Minister 2.29 In view of these apparent limitations on the must be satisfied that the Australian to be in- agencies’ legal functions, it was not clear vestigated is, or is likely to be, involved in how the responsible Minister could authorise one of the following categories: the agencies to undertake activities for the • activities that present a significant risk purpose of producing intelligence on Austra- to a person’s safety; lians irrespective of whether they are inside • or outside Australia. Similarly, in the case of acting for, or on behalf of, a foreign ASIS, an issue arose as to ASIS’ power to power; undertake activities that may have a direct ef- • activities that are a threat to security; fect on Australians. • activities related to the proliferation of 2.30 Schedule I Item 22 suggests that the ISA is weapons of mass destruction or the already being interpreted to give ASIS and movement of goods listed from time to DSD the power to obtain intelligence on time in the Defence and Strategic Goods Australians inside Australia regarding the List; and capabilities and intentions of persons outside • committing a serious crime. Australia with the consequence that the 2.35 The amendment is intended to have the effect amendments are needed to give Australians of protecting Australians in Australia in the in Australia the same protections as Austra- same way as the current legislation protects lians outside Australia. Australians who are overseas. 2.31 It is relevant to draw attention to an answer 2.36 The Committee notes it is the case that the given on 21 March 2002 by the Minister for foreign intelligence gathering agencies can Defence to a question on notice from Senator currently be authorised to obtain intelligence Chris Evans: on Australians inside Australia regarding the To ensure that the privacy of Australians was capabilities and intentions of persons outside properly protected irrespective of whether they Australia. The Committee approves the pro- were overseas or in Australia, my predecessor posed amendment at Item 22, but requests issued a direction to Director DSD under section additional provisions, to ensure consistency 8(1)(b) directing DSD to obtain an authorisation in the requirements on all agencies, domestic before undertaking any such activities in relation or foreign intelligence gathering. to Australians within Australia. This direction Senator MARK BISHOP—The opposi- took effect with the date of the introduction of the Act, and had the effect of requiring DSD to afford tion adopts the material contained in those the same level of protection to all Australian per- paras as our reasons in support of the argu- sons regardless of their location. ment for all of the amendments relating to 2.32 This answer indicates that at present, al- the warrants in amendments (2) through (7) though protection of Australians inside Aus- before the chair. I note that the committee tralia is not specifically legislated, there is in recommends that, as the regime moves from fact a ministerial direction under section 8(1) ministerial direction to legislated ministerial (b), which would enable the production of in- authority as proposed in item 22, it should telligence on Australians in Australia. generally replicate the provisions of and 2.33 In the case of Australians outside Australia, have identical authorisation provisions to the ISA provides that before any of the agen- those applied to ASIO. cies can conduct an investigation, the Minis- Finally, we put on the record that we also ter responsible must, pursuant to S8(1), re- propose an additional amendment to mini- mise the prospect of misuse of incidentally
CHAMBER 38 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 obtained intelligence—that is the last made absolutely clear and unambiguous in amendment on the sheet in the name of the the bill that is before the Senate. opposition before the chair. The reasons for There has been some criticism which I this are self-explanatory and straightforward. also respect of the 2001 legislation, which We simply believe that information not rele- did not leave the matter as clear as some vant and incidental to any investigation would like, even though by means of a direc- should be disposed of. tive the authority of the minister has been Senator HILL (South Australia— required for all such collections. But I do not Minister for Defence) (12.09 pm)—I am sure see any room to argue that this bill could be that that was a very important speech and I criticised in the same terms. It makes it abso- would like to say that I heard every word of lutely explicit that the authority of the Minis- it— ter for Defence will be required before any Senator Mark Bishop interjecting— such collection is undertaken. The bill sets out and the legislative background, the 2001 Senator HILL—I would not want to legislation, sets out the circumstances in blame your leader for interrupting my which such collection is valid and the limited thought process. Instead, I will say that I will circumstances in which it can be progressed. assume that Senator Bishop took up the posi- If you add together the legislative restraints, tion that is well known on this matter, re- the professionalism of the Public Service, the flected in his amendments, which is an alter- responsibility of the executive and the over- native way of looking at the system of au- all scrutiny of the Inspector-General, I think thorisations and approvals. These alterna- it is a very safe system. tives were discussed with members of the committee and they have been discussed Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- with members of the opposition. I think I can tralia) (12.13 pm)—I have heard the minister fairly say that in the development of this bill describe these amendments put forward by to date there has been a cooperative ap- the opposition as an alternative. I do not proach. I respect the view of the Labor Party think they are necessarily an alternative. that the Attorney-General’s approvals should What I see before us in these amendments be required in relation to authorisations of are some quite clear specifications in the the Defence intelligence agencies. case of warrants for the issuing and the con- tents of warrants. I have heard the minister’s Whilst I respect that view, the government comments in response to the amendments does not agree with it. There are responsibili- and Senator Bishop’s query but I have not ties that the Minister for Foreign Affairs has heard any specific reason or any specific in relation to ASIS. There are responsibilities concern about any of the contents in the that the Attorney-General has in relation to amendments before us—that is, if we are ASIO. In relation to Defence Intelligence using the word ‘safeguard’ or, to use the min- Organisation, Defence Signals Directorate ister’s terminology, ‘protections’, there is no and DIGO, the imagery organisation of De- harm that I see. In fact, I think it is an im- fence, the governance responsibilities are provement on the legislation for us to specify those of the Minister for Defence. The safe- under what circumstances the issuing takes guard is that these intercepts cannot occur place and again to specify the content. and foreign intelligence cannot be sought in the circumstance of Australian citizens with- If it is a completely different perspec- out the authority of the minister, and this is tive—that is, the government does not want
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 39 to add any more specifications—that is one from the Labor Party but I have to pick up on thing, but what is wrong with the specifica- the point of layers or constraints. Under tions before us? I have not heard any exam- these amendments in relation to 9C and the ples from the minister as to why the amend- issuing of warrants, the third point states: ments before us—for example, amendment Before the Attorney-General issues a warrant (4)—would inhibit in any way the responsi- under this section for an activity, or a series of bilities and the functions of the ministers to activities, of a kind mentioned in paragraph 9B(a) whom he referred. I see these as good steps or (b), the Attorney-General must also: forward in providing some protections and Then you have a series, which I do not see as some safeguards. It is not perfect but it is a particular constraint. The amendment con- certainly better. I am just wondering why the tinues: government is rejecting these amendments. (a) be satisfied that the Australian person men- Senator HILL (South Australia— tioned in either of those paragraphs is, or is likely Minister for Defence) (12.15 pm)—My ar- to be, involved in one or more of the following gument is that the safeguards that are pro- activities: vided in the 2001 legislation and enhanced Then there is a list—a smorgasbord: and clarified by these amendments are more (i) activities that present a significant risk to a than adequate to meet the task. What the op- person’s safety; or position is doing, in my view, is adding an- (ii) acting for, or on behalf of, a foreign power; or other layer of safeguards but, in doing so, is (iii) activities that are, or are likely to be, a threat blurring the responsibility in relation to de- to security; or fence agencies between that of the defence It goes on; it is ‘one or more of the following minister and the Attorney-General. Not only activities’. You have points like point (iii)— do I think that is confusing but also I think it ‘activities that are, or are likely to be, a threat is unnecessary. There are obligations in rela- to security’. I do not see that these are se- tion to warrants that are upon the Attorney- verely curtailing or constraining the abilities General; there are obligations in relation to of the Attorney-General in this case. Even authorisations that are upon the defence min- when it is read not only in conjunction with ister. In relation to their respective agencies, the current sections of the act—and let us I believe that the systems have worked well face it: this updated bill does not really spec- and are, as I said, improved and clarified by ify in too much more detail what can and the bill that is before the chamber at the mo- cannot be done—but also in conjunction ment. So, both in terms of adding a further with the first two points in relation to the and unnecessary layer of regulatory require- issuing of warrants under the Labor Party ment and also in terms of blurring the re- amendments, they are pretty reasonable posi- sponsibility between the two ministers, I tions. In fact, some people might argue they would argue against the amendments the are not strong enough. I am just wondering Labor Party is proposing. what is wrong with putting in these clarifica- Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- tions in relation to the issuing of warrants. Is tralia) (12.16 pm)—I am a bit surprised that there a specific reason that the government the opposition do not want to take up this can give us, apart from all this namby-pamby point and argue the point or at least defend that it is duplicating or it is constraining or it their amendments. I actually think their is difficult for the ministers? What is difficult amendments are reasonably good. I do not want to take the call in advance of anyone
CHAMBER 40 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 about having to satisfy one or more of these AUSTRALIAN TECHNICAL criteria before the warrant is issued? COLLEGES (FLEXIBILITY IN Senator HILL (South Australia— ACHIEVING AUSTRALIA’S SKILLS Minister for Defence) (12.18 pm)—There is NEEDS) BILL 2005 nothing difficult about that. The issue is Second Reading whether you need to satisfy one minister or Debate resumed from 4 October, on mo- satisfy two ministers. The safeguards that tion by Senator Coonan: were read out by Senator Stott Despoja are in That this bill be now read a second time. the existing legislation and they are an obli- gation upon the Minister for Defence. The Senator WEBBER (Western Australia) Minister for Defence, before giving an au- (12.21 pm)—The Australian Technical Col- thorisation, has to be satisfied that the person leges (Flexibility in Achieving Australia’s mentioned is involved in one or more of the Skills Needs) Bill 2005, in my view, is one following activities: activities that present a of the more cynically named bills to come significant risk to a person’s safety; acting before this chamber in the last three years. for, or on behalf of, a foreign power; activi- We are told that this bill is all about address- ties that are likely to be a threat to security, et ing Australia’s existing skills shortage. It is cetera. It is not that I am arguing that these one of the key policies that the Howard gov- are the limited circumstances in which an ernment took to the election last year. The authorisation might be given; quite the con- thrust of this bill is that the creation of 24 trary. I believe that that is an important safe- Australian technical colleges, new colleges guard upon the powers that are given in this outside the existing vocational education legislation to the security agencies. I just do system, will be one of the key components in not see merit in the argument of requiring not addressing the current skills shortage in our only that the Minister for Defence satisfy economy. We are told that this federal gov- himself of all these matters but also that it ernment package will eventually deliver then be done by the Attorney-General as something like 7,000 places per year. Whilst well. I accept that there is a need for increased skills training and education in Australia, the Question negatived. federal government’s creation of a new sys- Bill, as amended, agreed to. tem of technical education is not the magic Bill reported with amendments; report bullet. In fact, it will not be the answer in the adopted. short term anyway. Third Reading How long will we have to wait to see a Senator HILL (South Australia— student graduate from an Australian technical Minister for Defence) (12.21 pm)—I move: college with a trade qualification? Four years at the earliest, and that is based on the propo- That this bill be now read a third time. sition that the colleges are up and operating Question agreed to. now, and of course they are not—unless the Bill read a third time. government also seeks to downgrade and shorten trades training. The earliest that we can expect to see a graduate from an Austra- lian technical college would be about 2010. It seems that we have a government that is a bit like a hamster on an exercise wheel: an
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 41 awful lot of movement but going absolutely Those opposite should be awarded points nowhere. like in a diving competition for the degree of I have spoken many times before in this difficulty in managing this problem. Every place about the absurdity of our current skills time that this country is confronted with se- shortage. My point then, and again now, is rious issues, those opposite come up with that the skills shortages in Australia did not complicated and twisted applications of logic come out of nowhere. There are many lead- and commonsense to address the problems. ing indicators of impending skills shortages. Anyone who believes that the most effective These include factors such as the number of and efficient use of taxpayers’ money to ad- people commencing an apprenticeship, the dress the skills shortage is to duplicate ele- number of people completing an apprentice- ments of the existing technical education ship, the number of people retiring from the system is really all about wasting money, work force by occupation, the number of time and effort. skilled migrants entering the work force and A technical and further education system the growth in trade job vacancies. This is just already exists in this country. The system, a small sample of those leading indicators. which is administered by the states and re- The government, through its Public Ser- ceives funding from the Commonwealth, is vice agencies, including those agencies con- responsible and has been responsible for cerned with immigration, employment, edu- skills training for years—even under Liberal cation and the Bureau of Statistics, has re- governments. Instead, with a degree of diffi- sources allocated to collecting all this data. culty and waste not seen for a long time, this Knowing the professionalism of the Public government come up with the idea of starting Service, I am sure that all of this data is from scratch. First, they have to go through available to the ministers concerned. The the process of finding interested organisa- problem for Australia is that the ministers tions to develop and run these technical col- responsible have simply not been interested. leges. Then they have to go through a tender- Simply put, the skills shortages that now ex- ing process. Then the minister gets to run ist have been coming for years. The lead in- around and hold lots of press conferences. dicators have been telling us this and the The successful organisation then has to go government has failed to act. and find suitable sites and then construct the buildings, I guess. Then, of course, they Now that we have a skills crisis, the How- would have to engage staff, develop a cur- ard government burst onto the scene with a riculum, advertise for students, start the range of new policies. What have the gov- training, manage the business and then, fi- ernment delivered after nine long years with nally, have a graduation ceremony. their dead-end skills policies? We end up with a toolbox for apprentices and Australian After a period of at least four years and technical colleges. But wait, there is more! based on all the things that need to happen When all else fails, we will simply allow before the first intake, this policy would fi- more skilled migrants to come here. There nally deliver the Howard government’s re- you have it: a crisis that they knew was com- sponse to the skills crisis. Each year that the ing that was addressed initially by increasing system is fully operational after that initial the number of skilled migrants and is now development, it will deliver at best 7,200 being addressed through the creation of new skilled workers into our economy. When technical colleges. considering this issue we must keep in mind that over the coming five years the estimated
CHAMBER 42 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 skills shortages in the Australian economy This is obviously of concern to some of will run to some 130,000 places. This is on the state Liberal members. One Friday night top of the existing shortages of approxi- last month, on the Stateline program on the mately 20,000 skilled workers. The Austra- ABC in Perth, a former minister of the Court lian people need to understand that simply government was openly advocating a discus- creating a new technical college system will sion about Western Australia seceding from still leave a five-year shortfall of about the Commonwealth of Australia. I wonder if 120,000 places—an incredible obstacle to the Hon. Norman Moore MLC has adopted our full economic development and growth. that position because of the level of concern You do not address a skills crisis by duplicat- he has with the behaviour of the Common- ing existing systems and structures that will wealth government. Can anyone be surprised deliver only 7,000 places a year when fully that members of the Liberal and National operational. parties in state parliaments are increasingly As I said before, it seems to me that those concerned about the actions of the Com- opposite like to complicate things. For nine monwealth government? years they have essentially been reducing The conservative parties in Australia have their funding of TAFE places. The net effect normally been opposed to the centralisation has been that around 270,000 fewer places of power in Canberra. Now, they are witness- are available. Compare that with the antici- ing a Liberal government that each day pated shortfall of 120,000 skilled workers seems to come up with new ways to take and the existing shortfall of 20,000. It could more power into Canberra and away from have been more than adequately covered if the states. The Hon. Norman Moore echoed funding had been maintained for the TAFE those concerns on that Friday night. In the system. Now, when the government need to area of technical education, the states and the address their own neglect of Australia’s Commonwealth should be working together skilled worker requirements, rather than to ensure that skills development in the Aus- working cooperatively with the states and tralian work force is delivered in the most territories, they have to go and create their cost and time effective manner possible. own technical colleges. During the last federal election campaign, The 7,000 places a year that may eventu- the government were called to task over the ate from Australian technical colleges could skills crisis. Their solution was the provision have been delivered at a lower cost and in a of a tool box and the creation of the Austra- more timely manner if the Commonwealth lian technical colleges framework. Some 12 could have seen its way clear to work with months down the track, we are only just now the states. Let that be remembered when we getting the legislation—talk about policy discuss this legislation. The skills crisis is not development on the run. If this is the Com- only a policy failure—a failure by successive monwealth’s considered response to the Liberal employment and education ministers skills crisis, we should not have had to wait to take heed of the lead indictors that pointed this amount of time. Surely the Common- towards a looming skills shortage quite some wealth would have been prepared for action time ago—but also a failure of the Com- immediately after the election, not some 12 monwealth to work cooperatively with the months later. Instead, we see the continued states. erosion of our Federation.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 43
If this is really the sum total of the Com- Skills Needs) Bill 2005 that using the fund- monwealth’s response to the skills crisis then ing to establish 24 Australian technical col- it falls well short of the needs of the Austra- leges does not optimise the use of that fund- lian economy. It falls short by some 120,000 ing and sets up a system that could, in fact, places over the coming five years. It is be- have detrimental effects on other school yond belief that the Commonwealth can only based VET systems and the outcome for all come up with 7,000 places in that five-year students. period for an expenditure of over $340 mil- Unfortunately, we are now faced with the lion. Much of the funding is going to capital extraordinary situation where it is not practi- expenditure, but how many more skilled cable to oppose or even amend the Australian workers could be funded if that money was technical colleges bill because, in the gov- allocated within the existing vocational edu- ernment’s arrogance, the majority of the 24 cation system? Surely, a much greater impact technical colleges proposed have been on the shortfall of 120,000 places could be agreed to and are under way before the bill made. has even passed through parliament. I think In conclusion, it is clear that the Com- this criticism is particularly valid, given that monwealth government have dropped the the decision to establish the technical col- ball on this issue. For nine long years they leges was a last-minute federal election did nothing except reduce the funding avail- promise that saw little, if any, consultation able to the public technical education sector. with state governments, schools, school prin- For nine long years they ignored the lead cipals, parent organisations or TAFE col- indicators that pointed to the looming skills leges. This is policy on the run, writ large. shortage in our economy. When called to The problem with implementing a policy account during the federal election campaign before legislation has passed is very obvious. last year, they came up with policy on the The parliament does not get the opportunity run—a policy to create 24 Australian techni- to properly scrutinise it and offer amend- cal colleges in a massive duplication of the ments which could improve outcomes for existing technical education system, for students, and those people who take the purely political reasons. This policy will take trouble to let us know their views, who often at least four years—and maybe as many as have much experience and expertise, are ig- five or six years, by the time we get there— nored. The government might argue that to deliver a single skilled worker to the Aus- there is no need for scrutiny because there is tralian economy. This is a government that support for the technical colleges and that are clearly not up to the task of managing that was demonstrated by the strong interest Australia’s skills development. and the number of applications for tenders so Senator ALLISON (Victoria—Leader of far. However, interest in the colleges does the Australian Democrats) (12.34 pm)—The not necessarily mean that the colleges will be Democrats welcome the injection of addi- in the best interests of students. tional funding for vocational education and What I find most perplexing about the training. However, we agree with the con- federal government’s decision is that stand- cerns of many who presented to the Senate alone technical colleges used to be a feature Employment, Workplace Relations and Edu- of schooling in Australia. They certainly cation Legislation Committee inquiry into were when I was at secondary school. There the provisions of the Australian Technical were high schools and there were technical Colleges (Flexibility in Achieving Australia’s
CHAMBER 44 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 schools. Yet, after extensive reviews of edu- make many of the same mistakes—and cation policy, it was judged to be a more ef- without too much input by anybody else. ficient use of resources, a more equitable The Democrats share the concerns of social approach and more educationally de- some of the submissions to the Senate in- sirable to educate all students under a single quiry that the language of the bill suggests comprehensive approach, and they were re- that technical colleges will be industry led integrated into the mainstream. and there will not be an equal partnership The Australian Education Union, in their between schools, industry and other stake- submission to the inquiry into the bill, out- holders such as employers and representative lined a number of reasons for the closure of organisations. Even the word ‘industry’ led stand-alone technical colleges—for example: to a misnomer, as they are more likely to be • Many were resource intensive and to some employer led. The Education Union in their extent, exclusive. There was little easy movement submission made the observation that the between academic and technical schools, with technical colleges: neither benefiting from the practices and re- ... are to be situated in regions with skills short- sources of the other. ages and high youth unemployment, but where • Some technical schools became ‘ghetto’ reposi- there is a significant industry base. The only con- tories for working class kids and disengaged stu- clusion is, that where these three conditions co- dents from the high school stream. exist, local industry has to date taken no respon- • A mis-match occurred over the time between sibility for training the next generation of skilled the skills the schools were established to provide, workers. Yet this very local industry is now to be and the emerging skills in the economy. The charged with governing not merely some areas of schools therefore no longer met the demands of training, but a school teaching academic subjects. the industries they were meant to serve. The Democrats share the AEU’s belief that • It was acknowledged that all students needed ‘local industry does not have the expertise to some ‘vocational focus’ in their secondary educa- carry out such a role’. tion. This was especially so in the post- The union also raised concerns that the es- compulsory years (15-19) where with structural tablishment of the technical colleges, cou- changes to the economy and the evolution into a pled with superior funding, could weaken postindustrial society, jobs were no longer avail- able for 15 year olds or for those who were com- other school based VET initiatives. It has pleting the senior school technical curriculum. been estimated that, due to the additional funding, the technical colleges will operate at • It was also recognised that those students at over 175 per cent of the average cost of edu- technical college needed access to a broad general education which they were not able to receive cating a secondary student, which is a con- within the limitations of a technical college. siderable financial advantage. We must re- member that this is for quite a small number The Education Union warned that one of the of students at that level—that is, year 11 and long-term effects will be an emergence of the year 12. The union argued that, for want of same issues that confronted technical col- comparative funding, many school based leges in the 1970s and 1980s, challenging initiatives may not be able to compete with social questions about streaming, from an the offerings of the technical colleges and entry level of schooling into a trade, students will have to reduce their programs accord- who were not considered bright enough to ingly. complete mainstream schooling. Yet it seems that the federal government is on track to In particular, schools may have to cut pro- grams where student numbers would be too
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 45 small to be viable, further limiting student to the inquiry, argued that, while they sup- opportunities. This will have a considerable port the policy intent behind the bill, they impact on educational outcomes of students urge the government to consider alternative who do not attend the technical colleges but models that would achieve the same objec- who will still wish to pursue a vocational tives and yet be more flexible as well as pathway. It is also highly likely that, because more consistent with current industry part- the technical colleges will draw students nerships, especially in the regions. away from existing schools and programs, The Queensland government have pro- this will result in alterations to funding of posed a more flexible model, whereby stu- existing schools. The combined loss of stu- dents from feeder schools, both state and dents and funding is likely to affect the abil- non-state, would maintain an enrolment in ity of the school to offer a maximum range their respective schools and enrol in and at- of curriculum to all students. This would be tend the technical colleges to access high- particularly true for schools in regional areas quality, specialised trade training. The which are already struggling for viability. Queensland government argued that this dual A number of submissions noted that prin- arrangement would enable a greater number ciples such as equity have not been strongly of feeder schools to participate and thereby expressed in the bill. The emphasis on tradi- deliver a broader range of options for a tional trades, which are mainly male- greater number of students. The Queensland dominated trades such as metals and engi- government also argued that the dual model neering, automotive, building and construc- is particularly viable in regional areas, where tion and electrotechnologies, will inevitably the introduction of the colleges has the po- lead to failures to address gender participa- tential to create a competitor in what is a tion or, more broadly, to offer courses that relatively small market. The Queensland young women may be interested in pursuing. government expressed concern that failure to What happens if the aspirations, aptitudes or accommodate other industry partnership interests of a technical college student models that are currently delivering signifi- change? Will the technical college have the cant outcomes for Queensland industry and capability to offer the student alternatives? students not only is regrettable but also could Will the technical college provide a level of impact negatively on the cooperation that education to enable students, should they currently underpins successful industry and wish, to undertake further education such as school partnerships. at university? I think it has to be remembered It would be useful if the minister, in his that many students enter year 11 with not a contribution to the second reading debate, great deal of understanding or much idea could indicate whether the federal govern- about what they aspire to after school com- ment is prepared to consider more flexible pletion. models, as outlined by the Queensland gov- What concerns me the most about the ernment, and, if not, why this is the case. government’s actions to date is that they Several submitters to the inquiry on the bill have blindly and, I would argue, arrogantly rightly pointed out that the technical colleges pursued this flawed model for ideological will not produce a skilled tradesperson to reasons, including the pursuit of Australian come into the labour market until 2010 and workplace agreements, at the expense of al- that this will do nothing to assist the indus- ternative workable models. For example, the tries and the skills shortage now. The solu- Queensland government, in their submission tion to skills shortages is not via a model of
CHAMBER 46 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 privatisation and competition for already three years Professor Mackay-Sim’s research scarce resources; rather, the solution lies in team has been investigating the potential of olfac- an integrated, collaborative model that sup- tory stem cells in treating Parkinson’s disease and ports existing schools and VET courses. We is currently using stem cells from Parkinson’s echo the sentiments of the Australian Educa- sufferers to gain insights into the causes of the disease. tion Union that technical colleges are, at best, a solution for a few at the expense of Professor Mackay-Sim, who was Queenslander of the Year in 2003, has been researching the sense the many. of smell for 30 years, the past 20 focusing on the Debate interrupted. regeneration of the sensory nerves of the olfac- MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST tory mucosa … The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT I congratulate the university and the professor. They are a perfect example of the Smart State in (Senator Marshall)—Order! It being 12.45 operation. They are brilliant and they deserve pm, I call on matters of public interest. public acclaim. Stem Cell Research What I have just read from is a ministerial Senator BOSWELL (Queensland— statement on the truly remarkable research Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) going on in Queensland that has broken new (12.45 pm)—I want to quote a ministerial ground in stem cell technology—using adult statement from the Queensland Premier, Pe- stem cells. ter Beattie, on 22 March this year: It is now established fact that adult stem Today I congratulate Griffith University research- cells are a viable alternative to the ethically ers led by Professor Alan Mackay-Sim for having problematic embryonic stem cells. They have grown adult stem cells harvested from the olfac- worked out how to grow them quickly and tory mucosa in the nose. They demonstrated the easily and without the problems associated cells can give rise not only to nerve cells but also to heart, liver, kidney and muscle cells. A paper with embryonic cells of uncontrolled on their work is … published … in peer-reviewed growths and tumours. Most importantly they life sciences journal Development Dynamics. can be grown from the patient’s own nose, Professor Mackay-Sim, deputy director of the making them good candidates for cell trans- university’s Institute for Cell and Molecular plantation therapies and tissue reconstruc- Therapies, has spent the past four years develop- tion. You do not have the massive problem of ing the research which will have potential clinical rejection that you get with embryonic cells. application in stem cell transplantation therapies Because they can be grown without ani- and in understanding the biology of diseases. mal cells, there is also no risk of the transfer Professor Mackay-Sim says the discoveries high- of animal genes or viruses during the growth lighted significant advantages of these adult stem of the cell. In addition, these adult stem cells cells over embryonic stem cells … The research are a wonderful source of cells to study dis- suggests that these adult olfactory stem cells have the same ability as embryonic stem cells in giving eases. The Griffith University research team rise to many different cell types but have the ad- is already using their 50 cell line population vantage that they can be obtained from all indi- to investigate Parkinson’s disease, schizo- viduals, even older people who might be most in phrenia, motor neurone disease, epilepsy and need of stem cell therapies. others. There is no need for therapeutic clon- This would mean that stem cells obtained from ing in order to study diseases, which is the and transplanted into the same person would not main argument being put forward. be rejected by the immune system. For the past
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 47
The consultant neurologist to the Mackay- not months as is the case with embryonic Sim lab, Professor Peter Silburn, has also cells. They can be sent by mail to researchers presented findings to a major international studying disease all over the world. Some of conference showing that stem cells derived the states’ arguments for cloning are a direct from Parkinson’s disease patients, when repeat of mantras heard last time: we will not transplanted into animal models, demon- be able to compete internationally unless we strated marked improvement. This highlights have cloning, we will lose our brainy people the effectiveness of the adult stem cell ap- overseas and so on. proach. Internationally, trials are already un- These claims are contradicted by the der way using adult stem cells to study other Commonwealth government’s Invest Austra- diseases, such as heart disease. No-one is lia publication entitled ‘Australian biotech- using embryonic stem cells to put back into nology—number one in the Asia Pacific for humans. biotechnology investment’. The paper says: I began by quoting the Queensland Pre- Ernst & Young ranks Australia as the number one mier’s enthusiastic praise for these research- biotech country in the Asia-Pacific and sixth ers to show the bipartisan support that is de- worldwide in its global biotech census. veloping for adult stem cell technology. A This is because Australia has a critical mass of few years ago, the talk and the investment international biotechnology organisations, which money was all for embryonic stem cell re- are generating 67 per cent of total public biotech- search. The talk was of cures, cures and more nology revenues for the Asia Pacific region. cures, for everything from spinal paralysis to … … … motor neurone disease, Alzheimer’s, cerebral With a population of just over 20 million, Austra- palsy, Parkinson’s and so on. It was the irre- lia has only 0.3 per cent of the world’s population sistible appeal of cures that pulled many yet we produce 3 per cent of the world’s medical votes over the line in support of the research research. legislation. Australia is in the top five countries (with popula- Now we have the Lockhart review to look tion 20 million or more) in terms of availability of at how the legislation on embryo research R&D personnel. and cloning is working and whether there Australia also has a greater availability of scien- need to be changes. There has been a push tists and engineers than the UK, Singapore and from some to open the doors to cloning for Germany. research but not for reproduction purposes. … … … Before we go down that track, there are some Australia is ‘punching above its weight’ in bio- key questions that need to be answered. technology research. Firstly, where are the cures? Where are the Australian governments have assisted the bio- research proposals for cures? Where are the technology industry to grow by providing close to peer-reviewed papers on cures? What disease A$1 billion in public biotech-related expenditure has been seriously studied? Where are the … human trials? Australia has around 400 companies (an increase The answers are all coming from the adult from 250 in 2001) whose core business is bio- technology. stem cell field. Humans are constantly re- generating their own stem cells. They can be Contrary to the scenario painted by some taken from a patient in 10 minutes. They can state premiers, Invest Australia says: be grown into their thousands within weeks, Australia is cementing its place at the forefront of stem cell research with a transparent regulatory
CHAMBER 48 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 system and the establishment of the visionary He says that that seems patently impossible Australian Stem Cell Centre (ASCC). from a practical point of view. He continues: … … … A different approach would be to use therapeutic Australia offers the perfect platform for biotech cloning. A major ethical issue, from my perspec- investment, with the combination of skilled per- tive, is that at our current level of knowledge, to sonnel, advanced technology, economic stability, make such clones requires a source of ova (egg scientific excellence and regulatory certainty. The cells). These can be harvested from volunteers, Australian Stock Exchange Healthcare and Bio- but not in sufficient numbers if this approach is to tech Index has expanded to include 134 compa- be made widely available. There is also the sig- nies in the second quarter of 2004 with a market nificant personal sacrifice that women would capitalisation of $27.1 billion. need to make in donating ova to develop a ther- … … … apy for another person. Due to cloning inefficiencies, enormous Australian life science stocks gained 41.5 per cent in the financial year ending 30 June 2004 ... amounts of eggs would be required and they would only come from thousands of hy- So the real Australian biotech market per- perovulated women during a medically risky formance is buoyant and healthy, and not one procedure. In the UK a cloning team said that is pining away because of lack of clon- that IVF eggs may not be sufficient. The ing. The NHMRC Licensing Committee has Times online reported that Professor Mur- issued nine licences to use excess ART em- doch said that she could not rule out asking bryos over the period to March 2008, involv- for egg donations for research from women ing up to 1,740 human embryos. The licence who would not otherwise be having such a holders are: Sydney IVF, which has four; procedure. That is the reality of therapeutic Melbourne IVF, which has two; Monash cloning. Do we want that situation in Austra- IVF, which has one; IVF Australia, which lia? That is the direction in which therapeutic has one; and Monash University, which has cloning would take us. Professor Good says: one. As Professor Michael Good of the Queensland Institute of Medical Research ... a further source of ova is from animals. Tissues derived from these clones would have a small notes in his submission to the Lockhart re- component of animal genetic material and society view: would have to weigh the benefits with the poten- I am not aware of any clinical trials being under- tial risks. The issue that will confront most peo- taken or being planned using stem cells derived ple, however, is what if the clone that was des- from IVF embryos, which was a major reason put tined to become a tissue through therapeutic clon- forward in support of the legislation passed in ing, was instead implanted into a woman’s uterus 2002. The scientific hurdle was, and remains, by an unscrupulous doctor and allowed to de- immunological rejection and the scientific com- velop into a child. This scenario would be totally munity is no closer to solving that dilemma. Until unacceptable to the vast majority and Govern- it does, I, as an immunologist, cannot foresee any ment would need to develop a method to police clinical use for IVF-derived ES cell tissues with- such activities. out the concurrent use of powerful immunosup- Embryo researchers are already talking about pressive agents. putting human genetic material into rabbit Professor Good goes on to say: eggs to produce the clones. This analysis of ... possible ways to avoid an immunological rejec- the pitfalls ahead for the therapeutic applica- tion do exist. One approach is to create a very tion of embryonic stem cell research is quite large bank of embryos (several million) that be- staggering in its implications. It explains tween them would contain one that had the cor- why we have seen no signs of cures, why rect immunological match for any given patient.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 49 there are not even developed research pro- It is impressive to see how they grow these adult posals for preclinical trials and why embryo stem cells into liver, heart, kidney, muscle and research investors are calling for cloning. nerve cells. They study diseases, they are in clini- cal trials. It seems that the difficult debate the nation Given that adult stem cells are a better alternative went through a few years ago has, in the end, to cloning, I believe that this is the way to side- been about a mere nine licences, nearly all to step the ethical dilemmas and we should seize it. the benefit of IVF corporate interests. I will We should back the Australian adult stem cell leave others to work out who they are. Pro- scientists to the hilt. We would be doing the fessor Loane Skene, who is a member of the whole world a favour. Lockhart committee, on 1 March 2000 told a Professor Barry Marshall and Dr Robin House of Representatives inquiry into clon- Warren ing: Awards for Science If there is to be legislation, I think it should be limited to preventing cloning for reproductive Medical Research purposes. With regard to other aspects of cloning Senator STEPHENS (New South Wales) research and development, it seems to me that (1.00 pm)—I continue the theme of Senator there is great potential. It is an area for research Boswell’s speech today on outstanding Aus- and treatment and it is an area that is very rapidly tralian science. Today I would like to recog- developing. nise some of our outstanding contributors. So already we know where one member of Yesterday, as we all know, was a very excit- the Lockhart committee stands on therapeu- ing day for Australian science because Aus- tic cloning. tralia added to its already formidable and The last debate was a very difficult one forever growing list of Nobel prize laureates. for many of us and led to deep soul searching Professor Barry Marshall and Dr Robin War- about the ethical issues involved. My point is ren were awarded the 2005 Nobel Prize in that, for all the pain we went through and for Physiology or Medicine and became our all the costs, we are not even close to the ninth and 10th Nobel laureates. promised cures from embryo research. Yet Barry Marshall and Robin Warren proved there is true hope out there. Medical research that the bacterium Helicobacter pylori was will tackle the most painful and debilitating the cause of stomach ulcers and gastritis. diseases known to humanity. And it will do it Prior to their discovery of this bacterium in through adult stem cell technology. The only the stomach, it was believed that stress and question is: how long before the world wakes lifestyle were the major causes of peptic ul- up to it? We have before us a sober opportu- cer disease. In fact, it was said that the nity to change direction to a zone of scien- causes of stomach ulcers were due to ‘hurry, tific research that is free of ethical dilemmas. worry and curry’. Professor Marshall and Dr I have taken several people to visit the lead- Warren permanently changed this prevailing ing adult stem cell laboratory at Griffith view. The foundation for their breakthrough University to see at first hand the work being was laid in 1981 when a young Marshall met done there. I seek leave to incorporate the Warren, who was a Royal Perth Hospital remainder of my speech in Hansard. pathologist with an interest in gastritis. To- Leave granted. gether they set out to investigate the possible The remainder of the speech read as fol- connection between a microbe and ulcers. Dr lows— Warren had observed small curved bacteria colonising the lower part of the stomach in
CHAMBER 50 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 around half of the patients studied. It was also to addresses from a number of prize re- here that the crucial observation was made— cipients who have made an exceptional con- that the signs of inflammation were always tribution to Australian science. I was seated present in the gastric mucosa close to where next to Professor Graham Farquhar, from the the bacteria was seen. With that began the Environmental Biology Group in the Re- study of biopsies from 100 patients and after search School of Biological Sciences, who much effort they successfully managed to has been working with Dr Josette Masle and cultivate the bacteria and by doing so made it together they have discovered the gene amenable to scientific study. called erecta that regulates water efficiency These two medical pioneers were so con- in plants. I spoke about that amazing work, fident in their discovery that in 1984 Profes- which may lead to the development of sor Marshall swallowed a culture of Helico- drought resistant crops, during my speech bacter pylori to give himself gastritis, which here in National Science Week. is a precursor to stomach ulcers, and then The ceremony was hosted by Dr Karl cured it with antibiotics. Not only did this Kruszelnicki who taught us interesting scien- brazen act convince the most hardened scep- tific facts last night such as why a strapless tics, but it also gave Professor Marshall a dress stays up, why the use of a colon in the new empathy for those who had been suffer- title of one’s work increases the number of ing the debilitating pain of stomach ulcers citations, and the existence of a link between for many years. It was surely a selfless act academic success and the excuse that one’s that has gone down in medical folklore. grandmother has died. A number of scientists Their discovery was very much a sea were honoured. The Prime Minister’s Prize change in scientific thinking as they were for Science was awarded to Professor David now able to demonstrate not only that bacte- Boger. The Science Minister’s Prize for Life ria could survive in a highly acidic stomach Scientist of the Year was awarded to Dr Har- but that it was the spiral-shaped, Gram- vey Millar. The Malcolm McIntosh Prize for negative bacterium that colonises the stom- the Physical Scientist of the Year went to ach in around 50 per cent of all humans and Associate Professor Cameron Kepert. The that some 10 to 15 per cent of infected indi- Prime Minister’s Prize for Excellence in Sci- viduals will, at some time, experience peptic ence Teaching in Primary Schools went to ulcer disease. As the Nobel prize press re- Mr Mark Merritt, and the Prime Minister’s lease stated: Prize for Excellence in Science Teaching in Secondary Schools was awarded to Mr Mike Thanks to the pioneering discovery by Marshall and Warren, peptic ulcer disease is no longer a Roach. chronic, frequently disabling condition, but a The role of science teachers can never be disease that can be cured by a short regimen of overstated. It is their knowledge and experi- antibiotics and acid secretion inhibitors. ence coupled with limitless enthusiasm, te- Our congratulations go to Professor Marshall nacity, passion and patience that are cultivat- and Dr Warren for their wonderful work. ing and developing tomorrow’s scientists and Last night I attended the Prime Minister’s future Nobel laureates. Their job is certainly Awards for Science where I was fortunate not an easy one. They have to convert com- enough to listen not only to a speech by Pro- plex scientific concepts and ideas into easily fessor Marshall, who flew in from Western digestible and, most importantly, engaging Australia specifically for the occasion, but topics for their students. In fact, research demonstrates that the more positive experi-
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 51 ence a student has of science in school, the exciting ways of teaching science and as more likely they are to pursue a career in such his zeal and enthusiasm is not just con- science in later life. For this reason I would fined to the students fortunate enough to like to single out for special mention and have him as a teacher but is dispersed Aus- commendation the winners of the Prime tralia wide. Minister’s Prize for Excellence in Science Mr Mike Roach, who won the secondary Teaching in primary and secondary schools school award, teaches at Hamilton Secon- announced last night. dary School in Adelaide and runs an annual Mr Mark Merritt received the primary space science school in South Australia. school award. He teaches at Marmion Pri- Mike fell into science teaching in 1971 mary School in the northern suburbs of Perth when, while part way through a chemical and has been teaching primary school stu- engineering degree, he heeded the call from dents for 21 years. Mark was inspired to be- the South Australian education minister for come a science teacher by the positive learn- anyone who had completed the first year of a ing experience given to him by his year 7 university science course to assist in science teacher. In his words: teaching. That was 34 years ago, and that He allowed us to investigate and explore the passion that drew him to teach is also what world around us, and was one of the many teach- led him to be selected for this prestigious ers to inspire me towards a science teaching ca- teaching prize. reer. Mike has been involved with the introduc- Mark believes that it is fundamental for sci- tion of conceptual physics, which uses ence teachers to answer questions not with ‘I analogies and real world situations to explain don’t know’ but rather with ‘let’s find out’. I physical principles. He has found that by think that this comment sums up the ethos of using space as a base point he can explain Australian scientists—their inquisitive na- practically all basic physics in a way that is ture, their drive to find out the nature and exciting and engaging for his students. He cause of things and their reluctance to simply believes that a critical shortage of teachers is accept things at face value. It surely is that the greatest threat to science teaching to con- ‘let’s find out’ mentality that has seen us front Australia today. As he said last night: leave our planet and conquer once terminal It’s important that we instil the next generation of illnesses. students with a love of science, and that we give As testament to Mark Merritt’s teaching them the knowledge and problem-solving skills ability and passion, his school dominated the they will need to enable them to assess the impact Western Australia talent search, with one- of science and technology on their lives. third of the 28 children who took part in the How right you are, Mr Roach. I congratulate competition winning prizes and around 80 him and Mr Merritt on their awards and wish per cent of them reaching the state finals. His them the best of luck for the future. school also won the overall prize for best We have a lot of other home grown re- primary school in the talent search. search in science and medicine going on, and It is also worthwhile to note on the record I want to reflect on two research topics to- that Mark is a writer and trial teacher for the day. The growing epidemic of diabetes al- new national curriculum resource Primary ready affects over a million Australians and connections: linking science with literacy. twice that number are at risk of developing He is helping teachers implement new and diabetes in the next five to 10 years. Despite
CHAMBER 52 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 the clear and present danger of diabetes, the Sydney in 1991 for his study of human cere- role of high sugars in causing blindness, kid- bral arteriovenous malformations. ney failure and heart disease is poorly under- Professor Morgan’s groundbreaking neu- stood. rosurgery has saved thousands of lives. He Dr Merlin Thomas, working at the Baker specialises in the treatment of arteriovenous Heart Research Institute in Melbourne, has malformations, cerebral aneurysms and sur- found a novel link between sugar and the gery for stroke—including bypass surgery, complications that it causes. His diabetes carotid endarterectomy and brain haemor- research has found a link between protein rhage. Aneurysms resemble bubbles or focal modified by high sugar levels and organ dilations of arteries that occur at weak points damage. He has found that high sugar levels of the artery wall. The likely reason for their change or modify protein, which in turn goes formation is an interaction of many factors. on to cause damage to the organs in the body. Basically, they occur at points where there is He is working on a way to stop high sugar the greatest stress on the artery walls, where levels in the blood affecting the protein. To arteries branch or change direction. use an analogy, he says high blood sugar is Aneurysms can lead to trouble if they rup- like adding petrol to a fire. The high blood ture, if they increase in size or if solid mate- sugar fuels the creation of destructive modi- rial from within breaks off and travels down- fied protein. His research is looking to con- stream to block an artery to cause a stroke. tain the fire no matter what is added to it, The most common cause for trouble is thus negating the effect of high sugar levels. haemorrhage caused by aneurysm rupture. It As well, he is developing a test that medi- is uncommon to diagnose an aneurysm be- cal practitioners will be able to use on diabe- fore it has ruptured and most people with an tes suffers to see how much of the modified aneurysm are totally unaware that they have protein is in their system, and thus doctors one until it bursts. will be able to easily and quickly ascertain Professor Morgan has gained a world the level or risk of organ damage in their wide reputation for performing and teaching patients. Medical practitioners can also use endovascular surgery. As the range and com- Dr Thomas’s test on patients who are at risk plexity of neurosurgical techniques and pro- of contracting diabetes to ensure that their cedures has grown, it has become increas- organs do not start to deteriorate as a result ingly difficult for neurosurgeons to maintain of the disease. Dr Thomas has recently re- expertise in all areas of neurosurgery, and he ceived a Victorian award for his research. is regarded as a pioneer of modern neurosur- I have recently been able to find out a lot gical techniques. He is sharing his expertise, more about the work of Professor Michael teaching both here and overseas. Morgan, head of neurosurgery at the Univer- As you can see, Australian science is alive sity of Sydney and the cerebrovascular neu- and well and we are proudly receiving an rosurgeon at Royal North Shore and Dalcross increased level of international recognition. hospitals in Sydney. Since graduating in As Senator Boswell so rightly said, we are medicine from the University of Sydney in really punching above our weight in our con- 1980, Professor Morgan has pursued his in- tribution to global science. We do very well terest in neurosurgery, and was awarded a with the funding we have for medical and doctorate in medicine from the University of science research. Imagine what we could do, however, if the sector was adequately
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 53 funded. Our success is an indicator that we of government officers and to the govern- have enormous untapped human intellectual ment. capacity in this nation. Increased funding in The big concern, as I said earlier today in medical research could unleash this poten- a debate on the intelligence services legisla- tial. I call on the government to increase in- tion, is not just what the powers are but vestment in health and medical research to whether there is any scope for making sure bring Australia up to the Organisation for that they are not misused. It is important to Economic Cooperation and Development note that there are already significant exam- average of 0.2 per cent of gross domestic ples of the government misusing the open- product. ended powers that they already have. I used I am also concerned about the govern- the example this morning of the Tampa. ment’s proposal to implement a radical new Whatever people might think about the im- formula for the distribution of research migration policies surrounding boat people, grants, which includes the abolition of the the simple fact is that, in addressing the po- Australian Research Council Board so that litical issue of the Tampa, the federal gov- control over research grants will be with the ernment used a whole range of information minister. With the ARC abolished, the inde- that was gathered by intelligence agencies to pendent peer review process goes and politi- inform their political response to that situa- cal favouritism and agendas come in that, tion. unfortunately, I can see will be awash with Communications between Australian citi- extreme pursuits. In this proud week of sci- zens, between lawyers and their clients, by entific research successes, I sincerely hope foreign companies, the shipping line and, that, as well as celebrating the achievements almost certainly, the Norwegian government of many hardworking Australians that have officials as well, were all intercepted and had their work recognised locally, nationally monitored, and the material was provided to and internationally, we ponder our future and government ministers and officers. Intelli- the future that we can foster for our scien- gence agencies were used to gather informa- tists. (Time expired) tion to assist the government in its political Immigration response. A simple thing like not being able Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (1.15 to be confident that your communications as pm)—I want to speak again today on the an Australian with your legal representative dangers of giving not just this government are safe from monitoring—and not only but any government open-ended powers monitoring but from being passed on to gov- without proper scope for independent over- ernment officials—is a serious problem. sight of how those powers are exercised and I will come back to that specific example proper opportunities for appeal when they later, but I want to emphasise that the Migra- are misused. This is relevant, of course, in tion Act as a whole provides a range of case the current debate around the so-called intel- studies of what happens when you give ligence and security matters and the propos- open-ended powers to government ministers als by the Labor state and territory premiers and officers. You get grotesque injustices, a and chief ministers and, of course, the fed- lack of concern for the human consequences eral Liberal Party government, to dramati- of decisions and an inability to have those cally increase the powers available to a range injustices addressed or even identified in some cases.
CHAMBER 54 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
I had a report forwarded to me today by The full Federal Court decision in this case the helpful people from the Senate Legal and has ruled that that was done unlawfully by Constitutional References Committee. It was the department. The government is appealing a report on the ABC web site that goes into a that decision in the High Court, so we shall full Federal Court decision back in July see what happens there. But there is a about a man who is a Swedish citizen but broader principle here, beyond what happens who had actually lived in Australia for all but to this individual, and that is that there is an the first four weeks of his life. His parents open-ended power—and depending on how are actually Australian citizens of Swedish this appeal goes, it may continue to remain origin and just happened to be in Sweden open-ended—for the minister to cancel the when he was born. They returned to Austra- visa of a person under the so-called character lia with him as a newborn baby, a few weeks provisions of the Migration Act. These are old, and he had lived in Australia ever since. provisions, I might say, that were brought in Despite that fact, he never actually took out with the support of the Labor Party, as well Australian citizenship. Of course, we all as the Liberal Party, as occurs with many of know that there are many thousands of peo- the unjust areas of the Migration Act. ple in similar circumstances and who have The fact is that this is not a new scenario. lived here the vast majority of their lives but Indeed, this case was referred to in the hear- have never actually taken out Australian citi- ings last week before the Senate committee zenship. This person committed some serious that is looking into the administration of the criminal offences in his adult life and was Migration Act. I would encourage those who tried and jailed for those offences. are interested in this issue to look at the evi- What we have in the Migration Act is, in dence given by Mr Glenn Nicholls from the effect, a form of double punishment, because Swinburne University of Technology’s Insti- not only do people get the court’s punish- tute for Social Research. He has been look- ment but then, as a consequence completely ing into a range of similar cases. separate of that process, they can get the I draw the Senate’s attention to a man by government’s or the minister’s punishment. the name of Rodrigo Herrera, who, in similar What happened in this case was that the per- circumstances, had his residency cancelled son then had his right to remain in Australia by the government on character grounds. An cancelled, and he was required to depart article in the Sydney Morning Herald in Australia and go back to Sweden. He was April last year by Cynthia Banham detailed basically being forced back to Sweden, de- his case. He moved here when he was six spite the fact that the person had never lived with his parents and siblings. His family sub- there, did not speak Swedish, had no imme- sequently applied for and received citizen- diate family there and not just his parents but ship, but he neglected to do so. Mr Herrera all of his family were in Australia. Obvi- got involved in some illegal activity and was ously, anything that may have influenced tried and punished for that. His residency him in the crimes that he committed was a was subsequently cancelled and he was go- result of his life here in Australia. ing to be deported to Chile. Having not lived But the fact is that the minister does have there since he was six years old, his ability to an open-ended power, under the character speak the language of that country was less provisions of the Migration Act, to simply than adequate and he knew nobody there at cancel a person’s visa if the minister believes all. they have failed the so-called character test.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 55
This is not just about the impact on the even affect people who have lived in this country person; it is also about the impact on the since infancy. If the power of cancellation is exer- wider family and the grotesque extra injus- cised by the Minister personally under s 501(2), tice, disproportionate punishment and impact no merits review is available in the Administra- that are placed on them. In a political sense, tive Appeals Tribunal or elsewhere ... the failure of the Minister to give reasons for his or her deci- it is obviously hard for politicians to defend sion to cancel a visa does not ... invalidate the the rights of people who have committed decision. Thus a permanent Australian resident— crimes, because they are immediately at- who has lived basically their entire life here tacked for standing up for criminals and and whose family are here and are Australian wrongdoers. People ask, ‘Why shouldn’t we citizens— have people like that removed from the country?’ Frankly, from my point of view, if may be removed from Australia without ever Australia has been responsible for bringing having been told why the Minister has exercised his or her discretion to cancel the visa. up a person, then it should be its system of justice that punishes them if they have com- That has happened a number of times and it mitted a crime. Once they have done their continues to happen. It is my view that it is time they have the right to get on with their not only a gross injustice, disproportionate to lives in the same way as anybody else who anything a person may have done, but also commits a crime. But this group of people damaging to the overall fabric of the Austra- are at risk of, and sometimes subjected to, lian community to have permanent residents having the vastly greater and extra punish- able to be removed at the whim of a minister ment of being permanently removed from without any scope for oversight of how that Australia—not only deported but also never power is exercised. allowed to return. They are separated from I am aware of another man, originally their family, potentially permanently, unless from Scotland, I think, who came here as a their family want to move as well. That, I teenager. He is now nearly 50. He was sen- would suggest, is a grossly disproportionate tenced to jail for breach of an apprehended punishment for any wrongdoing. The case of violence order—obviously an inappropriate the Chilean man that I mentioned was chal- act—for which he was tried and punished. lenged in the courts and failed. The judge at Subsequent to that, when he was released that time said that there were strong grounds and living with his aged parents, who were for the government to reconsider the relevant quite ill, he was rearrested by immigration section of the Migration Act and how it ap- officers and taken to the Villawood Deten- plies. tion Centre, where he has remained for over Another case that I am aware of, from 2½ years. Under his initial sentence he was 2004, involved a person that came here as a in prison for well less than a year; he was teenager from the UK. Again, the challenge then, or has been, in effect, imprisoned in in the Federal Court was unsuccessful, but I Sydney for 2½ years. As we all know, unlike will read some comments from the judgment for prison, the government does the kind and to emphasise the total power, the absolute helpful thing of charging people for every power, that exists in these cases. It states: day they are in immigration detention. Al- though I cannot do the maths off the top of ... the exercise of the Minister’s power under s 501(2) of the Migration Act to cancel a visa can my head, at $180 a day for being detained at have profound consequences for permanent Aus- the minister’s pleasure in the detention cen- tralian residents. The exercise of the power can tre, that person would have racked up a
CHAMBER 56 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 pretty large bill whilst trying to prevent him- permanent residence visa cancelled without self from being sent back to a country where any grounds being given to them. he has not lived for decades and where he That can happen now under the law, and it has no family left, and while he has aged is quite feasible with future legal changes parents who are ill here in Australia. that it could even apply to Australian citizens These are gross injustices. The fact that who are deemed, according to a completely they occur to people who have committed secret process, to somehow be security risks offences in Australia does not in any way or to have failed character tests for other rea- reduce the size of them. I think it offends sons. I would argue that that is an extremely very important principles of public admini- dangerous power. We have already seen that stration and due process of law that people it can be used, and has been used, in a way can have such massively harmful and enor- which causes massive injustices for people mous things done to them at the whim of a and for their wider families. That needs to be minister who does not even have to justify addressed and that situation needs to be re- their decision, which cannot be challenged. moved from the Migration Act. We do not This is one area and one example of what want to be expanding the scope for people to can happen. But I should add to it the very be removed from Australia, to even have significant fact that recent High Court judg- their citizenship cancelled, on the basis of ments also suggest that it is quite possible for secret decisions that people have no right to ministers to also cancel the citizenship of appeal against. That is the risk we are facing, Australians or to have laws passed that will and we need to fight against it. (Time ex- enable them to do so. Even though a person pired) may be a citizen, the High Court’s recent Uranium decisions have made it apparent that minis- Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia) ters would be able to give themselves the (1.30 pm)—Today I want to discuss the envi- power under law to deem that person an ronment. On the weekend just past, the Lib- alien for the purposes of cancelling their citi- eral Party in Western Australia held a state zenship, particularly if they held dual citi- conference. Indeed, I pause to say that the zenship of another country. Liberal Party in Western Australia can hold a I say all of this not only to point to injus- state conference, in stark contrast to my La- tices that occur under the Migration Act but bor colleagues who have some difficulty also to sound a warning as to what can hap- holding a state conference for fear of actual pen if we give extra powers to ministers, on violence amongst the factions. At that state so-called national security grounds, that al- conference we passed a resolution in support low people, on the basis of anonymous in- of the mining and exporting of uranium. That formation, to be deemed a security risk is what I want to talk about today. The 300 through an intelligence agency that has no delegates, if my memory serves me correctly, requirement to produce details of that unanimously supported the proposition that anonymous information. We all know about we should get on with the job and start min- the case of Mr Scott Parkin, the US peace ing and exporting uranium. This is in stark activist, who was deported on grounds about contrast to Labor’s absolutely ridiculous, which he was unable to be informed. That irrational and illogical three-mines policy, can be applied to permanent residents in which each state Premier is seeking to main- Australia, who can then similarly have their tain to shut out good viable jobs and to
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 57 prejudice the development of a strong indus- There is a huge build on in China—some 30 trial section in this area. new reactors at a cost of $A64 billion are Australia has 30 per cent of the world’s going to be rolled out in the next 10 years. uranium reserves. Australia produces and Western Australia and indeed the whole of exports 10,000 tonnes of uranium oxide Australia need to be a part of what is happen- every year now, as I stand here and talk. Aus- ing with respect to energy generation, par- tralia’s uranium is used solely for the genera- ticularly in East Asia. tion of electricity right around the world. We I now turn to the quite interesting recent apply the strictest guidelines and protocols to events surrounding former Prime Minister ensure that none of our exports find their Bob Hawke, when he made a call for the way into countries like North Korea or Iran storage in Australia of internationally gener- or, indeed, into weapons or any other misuse ated radioactive waste. I was watching the of this mineral. In the last five years, we former Prime Minister on television, and I have exported a total of 46,000 tonnes of must confess to being marginally cynical. I uranium oxide, and this is in contrast to the thought that what he was doing was only Labor premiers saying, ‘No more uranium seeking to distract from the current furore mining.’ It is already happening, and there is arising from The Latham Diaries to give the a demand in the world for our uranium. As I now leader of his struggling party some said, we have 30 per cent of the world’s re- breathing space. Of course, he did touch serves. on—and I trust that he is sincere; I want him Our three producing mines were, until to be sincere because this is a very important relatively recently, Ranger, Nabarlek, which debate—the storage of not just radioactive is now closed, and Olympic Dam in South waste but toxic liquid solid waste generally, Australia. Our customers over the years have which is a major issue for Australia and for included Japan, Finland, France, South Ko- Australians. rea, the United States, Canada, Sweden, the I pause to say that, in terms of the storage United Kingdom and Belgium. In Western of radioactive waste, Australia has pioneered Australia we have two world-class proven a vitrification process called synroc, which deposits: Yeleerie in the north-eastern gold- locks up the dangerous radionuclides in a fields of Western Australia and Kintyre in the crystalline structure which, as nearly as pos- East Pilbara shire of Western Australia. sible, replicates the natural state of radioac- Western Australian reserves, as proven in tive minerals prior to mining. A group of those two deposits, are estimated to have an minerals that has the capacity to lock up in-ground value of $6 billion, whilst the those radionuclides is, for example, the py- Northern Territory reserves currently have an rochlore group of minerals. Synroc is on the in-ground value of about $12 billion. West- cutting edge and is world’s best practice in ern Australia has over 250 highly prospective lead technology as to the storage and han- mineralised areas which host uranium and dling of high-level radioactive waste. other associated minerals. There is an enormous number of issues The reason why we in Western Australia surrounding this subject, as former Prime are so keen to look at this topic is that, as Minister Hawke indicated, including trans- anyone who knows anything about China port, storage and all the surrounding proto- and, indeed, East Asia as a whole would be cols, rules and regulations. But this is a de- aware, there is a massive air quality problem. bate that Australia should have. And why
CHAMBER 58 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 should we have it? It is because our cities ongoing management of these substances, have thousands of tonnes of low-level and yet they are opposed to the storage of radio- high-level toxic and radioactive waste being active waste in Australia and sit by and ac- stored in their suburbs. There are substances quiesce on the illegal and improper storage such as PCBs, polychlorinated biphenyls, of tonnes of problematic, highly toxic waste which would be highly dangerous and envi- and other radioactive waste. The hypocrisy ronmentally very serious if they were not of Labor in Perth is unrivalled, particularly handled properly and carefully. There are in contrast to the maintenance of their three- very large amounts of mercury in our sub- mines policy and their refusal to allow fur- urbs, being by-products of our industrial ther uranium mining in Western Australia. processes. There are acids, including hydro- Indeed, Labor in Western Australia would fluoric acid, perchlorethylene and tetra- have us believe that they are very environ- chloroethylene, just to name a few. Were mentally conscious. Nothing could be further these substances to enter our watertables, from the truth. In support of my allegation there would be a major generational problem against them, let me recite to you what has and a major environmental hazard long into been happening in Perth in the last four the future. years, since Labor took over. Let us take our In Western Australia, in the last five years iconic Swan River in Perth, in Western Aus- we have had two major and serious environ- tralia. There have recently been several large mental issues. The Brookdale waste disposal sewage spills. In September, just last month, plant was simply an old sewage treatment an unknown quantity of raw sewage entered plant that was converted by the Department the Swan River at Bassendean through a of Environment in Western Australia to han- stormwater drain due to some maladministra- dle liquid toxic waste. In about 2001-02, lead tion, neglect or foul-up in the Water Corpora- levels 75 times higher than World Health tion’s sewerage management. In April this Organisation limits were found at a local year, 250 kilolitres—that is, 250,000 litres— primary school adjacent to this facility. The of raw sewage were pumped into the Swan Department of Environment in Western Aus- River at South Perth through a stormwater tralia has no long-term plan for the disposal drain. In October 2004, 2.5 million litres— and handling of liquid toxic waste or solid that is, two Olympic size swimming pools— toxic waste and yet the Labor Party govern- of raw sewage went into the Swan River. In ment in Western Australia say, ‘We will not 2003 there were three spills—in May, July allow uranium mining.’ and November—flooding 1.3 million litres On 15 February 2001 a small company of raw sewage into the Swan River. In Janu- which was storing toxic waste had a fire. It ary of that same year 50,000 litres went into was found in a subsequent inquiry that that the Swan River when a pump failed. In De- facility was storing large amounts of waste, cember 2001 we saw 160,000 litres spilled far in excess of the Department of Environ- into the Canning River. In the last four years mental Protection licence regime that was in a total of over 4.2 million litres of raw sew- operation. The government had in fact sanc- age has entered the Swan River. This is the tioned the breach of the licence. I pause to administration of Labor. This is the environ- say that Labor, in power in Western Austra- mental awareness of Labor in Perth, in West- lia, have refused to compensate a neighbour ern Australia. to that fire who was wiped out and have re- Labor in WA have delayed the previous fused to accept any responsibility for the Court government’s infill sewerage program,
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 59 which would have eliminated 111,000 septic pattern of failure that has emerged. This is tanks in backyards throughout suburban not a recent phenomenon. Failure to procure Perth, which would have substantially re- materiel on time and within budget is time duced the nitrogen and phosphorus levels in honoured. Global budgets, single line appro- groundwater and entering the river. Labor priations and poor documentation make have just said, ‘No, we’re going to do other transparency extraordinarily difficult. We in things.’ This is the action of an environ- the parliament therefore have limited ability mental vandal as a government. It is against to do much about this problem. That simply the backdrop of February 2000, when we had suits the government, as it is able to conceal one of the worst toxic blue-green algae its own bungling. It certainly would not be blooms—Microcystis aeruginosa—in the tolerated in any other portfolio, and any pri- Swan River. You cannot swim in it, you can- vate sector company performing this way not water ski on it, you cannot have anything would be the subject of an ASX investigation to do with it. I am a sailor in Perth. The yacht as a matter of priority. Yet we are constantly club had to be closed because we could not told that Defence is different—there is no sail on the Swan River because of the blue- other operation like Defence anywhere; it is green algae blooms. This is the background big, complex and holds $75 billion of Aus- to Labor’s alleged environmental approach tralian government assets. It is too big. to stop uranium mining. They cannot look Frankly, none of this argument—none of after domestic environment issues. They this defence—washes at all. It is simple fail- cannot be trusted with domestic environ- ure at the political level to ensure administra- mental issues. tive accountability. There is always an ex- With all this sewage flowing into the cuse. There is always a light at the end of the Swan River, today the Water Corporation tunnel. At present, we are shifting the deck- have announced a $420 million profit. What chairs for the newly commercialised, busi- is happening to maintenance programming in ness orientated Defence Materiel Organisa- their sewerage systems? It is simply outra- tion—the DMO. We are told that we have a geous. This is the record of a government new two-pass system. We are also told that it that are opposed to uranium mining for stu- is the answer to all of our prayers. Yet we in pid, crass, cheap, point-scoring, political mo- this place know that all this is rhetoric. We tivations—a government in Western Austra- fear it will not make the slightest amount of lia that cannot manage their own environ- difference at all. The reason for that assertion ment in suburban Perth. It is a disgrace. is that the culture of the organisation remains Defence Procurement unchanged. It is too easy to hide behind the mystique and glory of the defence of our Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- nation and the glory of our flag. There is al- tralia) (1.43 pm)—In recent sittings I have ways an excuse for inactivity. spoken a number of times about the record of the current government in the area of defence The Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and procurement activities. Thanks to the work Trade References Committee reported on of the Australian National Audit Office, we this subject in March 2003. Can anyone tell have a detailed record of a large number of us what has happened to the recommenda- exercises which really have gone off the tions of that particular report? The answer is: rails. Moreover, by looking at each of these nothing. Senators might recall the recom- exercises individually, we can see a clear mendation that an annual report of progress on every capital acquisition project be pre-
CHAMBER 60 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 pared. What happened to that recommenda- Evans seeking information on cost blow-outs tion? That alone would help the parliament and delays on major capital projects. This understand where tens of billions of dollars was of course a complete fabrication, be- are being spent. Unfortunately, the fog still cause the work had been done in the due lies thick on that particular report. diligence exercise for the DMO. This is sim- At estimates every year we do our best to ple deception. The government does not come to grips with the defence budget, in- want anyone to know how bad things really cluding procurement policy. We are barely are. More to the point, it is unknown what able to penetrate those reports. We receive dilution of defence capacity has resulted. It is plenty of bland assurances and generalities— not the taxpayer who is being diddled here— and next time around it will be the same. In it is the entire defence effort. many cases the information sought is simply The glossy nature of the Defence Capabil- not available. The ANAO reports the same ity Plan is completely undermined by the phenomenon—Defence simply do not know, repeated failure to deliver what is sought on nor do their contractors. I refer particularly time and at cost. In many cases, product to the report on the frigate upgrade project. specified at a price is both late and way over What is presented as information in all the cost. Worse than this, cost cutting, which is glossy documents and budget papers is in- the general solution, causes the order to be complete. Sometimes it is contradictory. Of- reduced and specifications to be deleted. The ten officials are unable to answer questions planned budget and capability are constantly because they were not there at the time, there compromised. Again, the frigate upgrade is no corporate memory or records do not project is a classic example. Six frigates exist. Regrettably, we do not have the re- were contracted at an estimated cost of $890 sources we need to scrutinise; nor does the million in 1997. The order was then reduced ANAO. to four frigates at a cost today of almost $1.5 The Joint Committee of Public Accounts billion. Two-thirds of the budget will be and Audit is also trying to come to grips with spent by the end of this year, and not one this issue. The result is that, year after year, ship has yet been delivered. A betting man this performance on procurement staggers would say that more of these ships will be on. By the way, this is not just about a few mothballed yet. It goes without saying that million dollars. In report No. 35 of 2004-05, this is a very serious issue and would not be the ANAO quote the finding of the due dili- tolerated in any public or private corporation gence inquiry conducted in the lead-up to the outside government areas. inception of the Defence Materiel Organisa- In passing, I should also mention that fi- tion. That exercise found that, since 1981, nancial mismanagement is equally rampant. the amount spent on the top 64 procurement Huge sums of money have been paid in ad- projects had been $11.8 billion above the vance and have not been acquitted. Other original estimated amount. We can only equally large sums are parked in trust ac- guess what it might have been for the entire counts to bypass the Treasury and to disguise capital works program over that time. No- low cash flow on slipping projects. However, one has yet asked to look at the minor pro- I should say that we do accept that some- jects. times there might be mitigating circum- It is relevant to note that the minister re- stances. The key one which most frequently fused to answer a question from Senator occurs is where there is advanced and per- haps as yet unknown technology. The very
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 61 nature of defence activity is to maintain a tion at that time concentrated on final price, critical edge. Where new technology is con- its revolutionary swing wing design and its cerned, we know that around the world na- terrain-following radar capability. Yet that tional defence provides the impetus for the aircraft has become one of the most reliable adoption of that new technology. That in turn and better performing aircraft of all time—so spins off into broader industry and eventually good, in fact, there are some who believe its down the chain to consumer usage. Impor- planned service could be extended with a tantly for defence activity these days, it also cost benefit over early purchase of the JSF. significantly reduces the likelihood of casu- The debate we have now on the JSF was had alties in an operational sense, hence the em- then as well, in almost exactly the same phasis on remote control, reduced exposure terms. It may also be inevitable that, where and the use of the most sophisticated tech- there are drawn out planning and production nology that is available. schedules, current technology can be quickly Defence planners frequently ask their superseded. The original systems in the technical people to come up with things Collins class submarines are a useful exam- which are not yet in existence. Procurements ple. By the time construction was ready, such as these are therefore very difficult to computer technology had rendered the origi- cost but nevertheless require a commitment nal obsolete; hence, extra cost down the line. before the actual work can start. Aviation is The longer the planning and construction one such area where new horizons are con- phase the more likely this is to occur. Again, stantly being sought. The Joint Strike Fighter ANAO assessment is that time delays cause currently in design is perhaps a useful exam- 89 per cent of cost overruns. The remainder ple in this context. Certainly, digital technol- is caused by added specification. In some ogy associated with radar, communications cases, both these basic elements may be jus- and weaponry is and will continue to be tified, but the overwhelming evidence is that leading edge. Sadly, it also has a short life they are not. Indeed, the most telling diagno- span with respect to obsolescence. Con- sis of the Kinnaird report is that the most stantly we find that procurement plans are common failure is to get the original specifi- overtaken during development, although, it cations correct; hence, the new two-pass sys- should be added, only because the delays tem put up as a solution to this problem. Un- accepted in the system make that outcome der this system initial approval is given to inevitable. So, sometimes, costs may be dif- enable specifications to be accurately devel- ficult to pin down early in the procurement oped, followed by a second decision of cycle. Whether we accept that excuse, commitment from government. Whether this though, is debatable; it is up for argument. will work is yet to be seen. But it does make Certainly, manufacturers in the commercial sense to spend more on development up front market do not have that luxury. The lead prior to production rather than part way times for commercial aircraft manufacture through. We simply could not imagine any are similar, and companies such as Boeing commercial product manufacturer doing it manage in a fully competitive market and, I any other way. There is more to this, though, might add, have no problem tracking their and I will continue my remarks on this sub- stores and inventories, which are every bit as ject later this evening in the debate on the complex as those of Defence. adjournment. For those old enough it is worth remem- bering the decision to buy the F111. Specula-
CHAMBER 62 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Uranium Mining port dollars that would come from additional Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- uranium mining. Furthermore, Mr Bill sland—Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and Ludwig, the AWU heavyweight, understands Conservation) (1.55 pm)—In closing this the importance of jobs to Queensland were debate on matters of public interest I want to we able to mine uranium in that state. commend Senator Johnston on his very Over the years the AWU has had a very thoughtful contribution on uranium mining strong influence on the Labor Party in in Australia. Senator Johnston very clearly Queensland. As a result of that influence it articulated the absolute stupidity of the La- has enabled many current senators from bor Party’s position, where uranium from Queensland to be elected to this parliament. I three mines in Australia seems to be okay but hope that those senators from Queensland uranium from any other mine seems to be elected with the support and imprimatur of bad uranium. How anyone in the Labor Party the AWU faction in Queensland heed the can ever explain that policy is beyond me. I warning of Mr Ludwig Sr and do something notice that many in the Labor Party never try about uranium mining and the ridiculous to explain it, because they understand as well ALP policy. Mr Bill Ludwig understands that just what a stupid policy it is. I congratulate there is absolutely no sense or significance Senator Johnston on that very thoughtful whatsoever in the Labor Party’s closed shop address. policy towards uranium mining in Australia. It did bring to mind how divided the La- Mr Bill Ludwig also understands that jobs bor Party is on this. Senator Johnston men- for Queenslanders are at risk because of the tioned Mr Bob Hawke and his support for Labor Party’s policy. Mr Bill Ludwig has opening up the debate on more uranium min- been very forthright in supporting uranium ing. In Queensland, big Bill Ludwig, the mining. I certainly hope that his son, Senator head of the ACTU there for many years and Joe Ludwig, who has now joined us in the the father of Senator Joe Ludwig, has come chamber, will take up his father’s call and out very strongly in favour of uranium min- will criticise even harder Mr Beattie and the ing in that state. One would only hope that federal Labor leadership for their closed big Bill Ludwig, the AWU boss and heavy- shop view on uranium mining. I hope that weight, would, at a family gathering, encour- the Labor Party will join the government in a age his son Joe to support the same sort of more expansive view on uranium mining for proposal. Senator Joe Ludwig is, of course, Australia. part of the Labor Party in this parliament and MINISTERIAL ARRANGEMENTS he is a person who could, I think, very sig- Senator HILL (South Australia— nificantly contribute to the Labor Party get- Minister for Defence) (2.00 pm)—by ting a more sensible policy on uranium min- leave—I inform the Senate that Senator the ing. Hon. Rod Kemp, Minister for the Arts and I noticed Mr Ludwig Sr, the AWU heavy- Sport, will be absent from question time weight, was in Mount Isa criticising very from Wednesday, 5 October to Thursday, 6 severely the Queensland Labor Premier, Mr October inclusive. Senator Kemp will be Peter Beattie, for his closed shop view on absent due to his attendance at the UNESCO uranium mining. Mr Ludwig Sr, the AWU conference in France on behalf of the Austra- heavyweight, clearly understands that it is lian government. During Senator Kemp’s ridiculous for Australia to deny itself the ex- absence, Senator the Hon. Helen Coonan,
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 63
Minister for Communications, Information counter this evolving threat on a number of Technology and the Arts, has agreed to take fronts. It has committed more than $250 mil- questions on behalf of the portfolio of the lion to this goal since 2004, including more arts and sport. than $50 million for Indonesia to boost QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE counter-terrorism capabilities in areas like law enforcement, border control and trans- Indonesia: Terrorist Attacks port security. It also includes enhancements Senator CHRIS EVANS (2.00 pm)—My of efforts with Indonesia and its neighbours question is directed to Senator Hill in his to address terrorist movements between capacity as Minister for Defence and as Min- countries of the region for operations, train- ister representing the Minister for Foreign ing and refuge. We are also supporting ef- Affairs. Can the minister indicate what steps forts such as a regional interfaith dialogue to the government has taken to encourage the empower moderate voices to contest extrem- Indonesian government to ban the terrorist ist ideologies peddled by JI and its support- organisation Jemaah Islamiah? Wouldn’t the ers. Ultimately, Indonesians themselves will act of banning this organisation send a very decide how best to fight this insidious threat, clear legal, political and moral message to including how to treat JI as a terrorist organi- the community, both in Australia and in In- sation. In our view, it is important that all donesia, that these sorts of organisations will states make clear their profound disapproval not be tolerated? Wouldn’t it also allow In- of such organisations and their activities. donesia to shut down schools and training Australia remains committed to playing its camps that are run by JI as recruitment cen- part in what will clearly be a long-term chal- tres for their terrorist network? Wouldn’t a lenge. comprehensive ban on JI also provide a Senator CHRIS EVANS—Mr President, criminal basis for Indonesian prosecutors to I ask a supplementary question. I thank the act against the organisation? Will the gov- minister for his answer. Can the minister ac- ernment now use its influence in the region tually outline what steps the Australian gov- to encourage the Indonesian government to ernment will take to encourage Indonesia to take this most important step? ban the terrorist organisation Jemaah Isla- Senator HILL—I thank Senator Evans miah? for his question. The Australian government Senator HILL—Australia realistically will continue to urge the Indonesian govern- cannot do more than make representations. ment to strengthen further its counter- We have made them in the past; we will con- terrorism laws, including by outlawing Je- tinue to do so. I understand Mr Downer has maah Islamiah. That would bolster the legal indicated that he will be travelling to Indone- tools available to Indonesian authorities in sia to further press this issue. We do under- pursuing the wider JI network and underline stand, and I acknowledged yesterday, the Indonesia’s resolve to fight terrorism. It number of measures that Indonesia has taken would not of course in itself reduce the threat to address this threat. We also understand the from JI as a secretive terrorist organisation complexity in the issue of banning JI. If it increasingly working through loose networks were simple, Indonesia would have already drawing on individuals with no formal links done so. It is very reluctant to drive those to JI. who may support this organisation under- The government is working closely with ground, for obvious reasons. It is also very Indonesia and other regional countries to reluctant to lose the support of a more mod-
CHAMBER 64 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 erate element of the community that may be to remove opportunities such as when in on the fringe of these organisations. (Time 1990 Curacao Fischer Catt—somebody’s expired) pet—was put onto the electoral roll in the Electoral Reform seat of Macquarie. Senator TROETH (2.05 pm)—My ques- Another serious issue is the potential for tion is to the Special Minister of State, Sena- the roll to be used to create false identities to tor Abetz. Will the minister outline to the help perpetrate other crimes, including social Senate how the Howard government intends security fraud. For example, electoral enrol- to make Australia’s democracy fairer for all? ment can be used to count for 25 points in a Is the minister aware of any alternative poli- 100-point identity check. I was also asked cies? about alternative policies. I thought for the benefit of those opposite we would have an- Senator ABETZ—I thank Senator Troeth other ‘Who said it?’ This was said about the for her question and note her longstanding Labor changes made in 1984: interest in electoral matters and in ensuring that we have a fair and robust electoral sys- I concentrated on making more certain that Labor tem in this country. The government is com- could embrace power as a right and make the task of anyone trying to take it from us as difficult as mitted to improving Australia’s democracy we could. and to creating a fairer electoral system for all. Last night at the Sydney Institute I out- Which person said that? It was a former La- lined moves to ensure that we have an elec- bor luminary in his autobiography—but, no, toral roll which is both rigorous and fair. it was not Mark Latham. Those opposite know who it was, but they are too scared to It is often said—and it is true—that it is name him. Of course, it was former Senator easier to get onto the electoral roll than it is Graham Richardson on page 144 of his book to hire a video. All one need do today to get Whatever it Takes. In a chapter entitled on the roll is to sign the form and get some- ‘Changing the rules’, he brags about the one else to witness it—it is not very rigorous changes: at all. Just ask Mike Kaiser, the disgraced Labor roll rorter who is now chief of staff to Labor could embrace power as a right and make the task of anyone trying to take it from us as the New South Wales Labor Premier. Those difficult as we could. opposite might recall that Peter Beattie, the Premier of Queensland, said, ‘We will drum Do you know who presided over those roll rorters out of the party.’ All they did was changes at the time? Who was the then Spe- drum him over the state border and straight cial Minister of State? It was the current into the chief of staff position of the New Leader of the Opposition, Mr Beazley, who South Wales Premier. Ask the Labor opera- is now railing against us seeking to introduce tive in Queensland that went to jail for roll some integrity to the electoral roll. You rorting in the year 2000. would have thought that, with Labor having members of parliament resign and operatives The government will move to tighten the go to jail, and having acknowledged and ad- requirements for getting on the electoral roll, mitted publicly that they deliberately ma- requiring citizens to produce either a pre- nipulated the electoral system for their own scribed form of identification or to have political advantage whilst Mr Beazley was someone from a prescribed class of wit- Special Minister of State, if the man had nesses vouch for their identity in the same some modicum of decency he would not vein as a statutory declaration. This is going have come out in this debate attacking our
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 65 proposals, which are designed to make our I have real confidence in Australia’s intel- system fairer and more robust. (Time ex- ligence agencies. I think they are working pired) exceptionally well in the Australian interest Indonesia: Terrorist Attacks in terms of a better understanding of this ter- rorist threat in our region. There is obviously Senator LUDWIG (2.09 pm)—My ques- a great deal we now know that we did not tion is to Senator Hill, the Minister repre- know a few years ago, but unfortunately senting the Minister for Foreign Affairs. I there will still be occasions when that critical refer the minister to his comments yesterday, bit of information simply will not be avail- and similar comments by the Minister for able, either to us or to, as in this case, Indo- Justice and Customs and others, that there nesia. In many ways you would expect it was no specific intelligence that could have would come to the Indonesian authorities helped prevent the bombing in Bali last before the Australian authorities. weekend. Is the government satisfied that Australia’s intelligence systems worked ef- Senator LUDWIG—Mr President, I ask fectively, despite not being alerted to any a supplementary question. Can the minister real prospect of an imminent terrorist attack? indicate in his answer whether or not it war- Can the minister indicate whether the gov- rants a review? Can the minister also explain ernment plans to review Australia’s intelli- today’s report in the West Australian news- gence system to help ensure that the likeli- paper that the Department of Foreign Affairs hood of advance warnings of further attacks and Trade is prepared to factor rumours into in the future can be improved? its travel advice? Can the minister indicate whether DFAT has now passed its knowledge Senator HILL—I reflect back on the re- of such rumours on to the Australian Federal cent experience in London. Suicide bombers Police for investigation, and when? are very difficult to predict. We have sub- stantially enhanced our intelligence coverage Senator HILL—Perhaps the most diffi- on the issue of terrorism within South-East cult issue of all is what to put in travel warn- Asia in recent years. We have significantly ings. Obviously, soundly based intelligence improved cooperation and communication would clearly be taken into account. Some- with equivalent agencies in other South-East thing that is less sound creates quite difficult Asian countries. We certainly have a much circumstances and difficult judgments to be enhanced picture of Jemaah Islamia than we made. We rely on capable professional ad- had a few years ago. We know a lot about its vice in this regard—in particular, the advice structure, its leadership and its techniques. of the National Threat Assessment Centre, We have information on believed training which, as I said, takes into account what establishments, particularly now outside of threat information is known and sometimes Indonesia. But, as I said yesterday, specific other considerations as well. In the case of intelligence on a particular attack is rarely the travel advice for Indonesia of 3 October, obtained in these circumstances. It was not it is a fact that there were reports of general obtained in Bali 1, it was not obtained in and specific bomb and terrorist threats fol- Madrid, it was not obtained in London, it lowing the 1 October bombings and, in was not obtained in Morocco, it was not ob- bringing some of these to the attention of the tained in Saudi Arabia, and unfortunately Australian public, it was also made clear that such information was not available in Bali 2. the government had nothing to corroborate such reports. I think that that gives Austra- lians the best information that we have and
CHAMBER 66 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 therefore we meet our responsibility in doing to. In fact, it will operate in a way very simi- so. (Time expired) lar to that operating in the ACT, where the Indigenous Land Ownership government continues to own the underlying freehold title and people get a 99-year lease Senator SCULLION (2.14 pm)—My over the land—a leasehold interest. This question is to the Minister for Immigration scheme is not exactly the same as that but and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs, similar because, under the proposed scheme, Senator Vanstone. Will the minister update the traditional owners will continue to hold the Senate on recently announced reforms to the underlying communal title to the land. the Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Terri- They will still own the land. Township resi- tory) Act? What is the nature of the proposed dents would get a long-term lease over the reforms and how will they benefit Aboriginal land—a leasehold interest. The changes will people in the Northern Territory? Is the min- not affect the traditional owners’ right of ister also able to assure the Senate that the veto. The government will not compulsorily rights of traditional owners enshrined in the acquire Aboriginal land. We are simply pro- Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) viding an opportunity. At the moment, if you Act will not be eroded as a result of govern- live in a township on Aboriginal land in the ment reforms? Northern Territory and you want to buy your Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator own home, you have to leave your commu- Scullion, a senator for the Northern Territory nity. Other people do not have to do that, and with a long-standing interest in these issues, we want to change that. for the question. I will answer the second The scheme will work like this: traditional question first, and the answer is: yes, I can owners will decide, voluntarily, if they want assure the Senate that the rights of traditional to do this. And what they could do is provide owners will in no way be interfered with by a head lease over a township to an organisa- this legislation—in fact, quite the opposite. I tion that would be set up by the Northern am sure that Senator Scullion knows that Territory government. That lease would be what we are doing is creating opportunities for 99 years. The traditional owners, in set- for traditional owners to finally get some ting up that lease with the Northern Territory income from land in townships. government organisation, could set other It is understood that Aboriginal land can broad conditions of the lease, including rent now be leased, but it is a long and difficult of up to five per cent of the value of the land. process. It can take two years to renegotiate a If town residents then want a long-term 10-year lease and seven years for other lease over their home or a business they ap- leases. This provides a very strong disincen- ply to the Northern Territory organisation for tive to people to engage in lease arrange- a sublease. That will be quicker and more ments because they cannot do so with any efficient than current arrangements. The tra- security. And, of course, when you do not ditional owners and the Northern Territory have security in respect of your lease, you do entity will do all the negotiations to set the not put as much investment in. These terms of the head lease, and any subleases changes will make it simpler and easier for will be subject to those terms. In other township residents, either in businesses or words, traditional owners have all the control homes, to get long-term leases. they want and need. There is no need for The scheme is entirely voluntary. Nothing individuals then to go through protracted will change unless traditional owners want it negotiations each time with traditional own-
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 67 ers and land councils. They will only need to ties to first Australians—real opportunities. It apply to the Northern Territory entity for a will give them the same opportunities that sublease. people around Australia—including, for ex- This is about protecting the rights of tradi- ample, our friends from Warrnambool in the tional owners, and opening up new opportu- gallery—have: to have some security over nities for them to get income and new oppor- the place where they live and where they tunities for other people to have security of work. tenure over their home or their business Remoteness and low education and em- where they can put in some investment, have ployment levels are, of course, fundamental some security and attract more investment. issues, and these reforms do not address We are doing something here to empower those issues. But we do not resile from those Indigenous people, providing opportunities difficult issues. There are other things to be and choices. done. But, if we can make this change, we I welcome the cautious support offered by will improve the situation. (Time expired) Senator Evans in relation to this. It is a Foreign Affairs: Travel Advice pleasant change from his remarks last night, Senator CHRIS EVANS (2.20 pm)—My which indicated there had not been adequate question is directed to Senator Hill, repre- consultation on this issue—in fact, suggest- senting the Minister for Foreign Affairs and ing that these negotiations had been con- Trade. Can the minister indicate whether the ducted in secret. But, be that as it may, I wel- government has confidence in the effective- come the turnaround and I, of course, wel- ness of the Department of Foreign Affairs come the support of the Northern Territory and Trade’s travel advisory system? Hasn’t government for this change. (Time expired) the travel advisory for Indonesia, including Senator SCULLION—Mr President, I Bali, recommended the deferral of all non- ask a supplementary question. Could the essential travel to that country for at least the minister further inform the Senate of the im- last 12 months? Despite this strong warning, pact of the amendments to the Aboriginal don’t thousands of Australians, including Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act sug- MPs from both sides of this parliament, con- gested today and, particularly, how they re- tinue to travel to Bali each year? Is the gov- late to further improvements in Indigenous ernment now considering a further review of communities in the Northern Territory? the travel advisory system, given that it ap- Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator pears not to have an impact on the travel Scullion. It is understood that what we are plans of Australians? suggesting here is not a panacea for the eco- Senator HILL—We see our responsibil- nomic circumstances of Aboriginal Territori- ity as providing what information we know ans. If there was a magic wand someone to the Australian public in order that they can would have found it by now, and this alone is take that into account in their travel plans. As not it. But it is a step in the right direction. Senator Evans has said, for some years we In direct contrast to a press release put out have been warning of the risks in relation to by the Australian Democrats’ Senator An- Bali and Indonesia generally. I think it is fair drew Bartlett, headed ‘Aboriginal rights next to say that Australians are generally aware of to be attacked by extremist government’, in the general tenor of the travel advisory, and I fact what is happening here is that legislation think travel agents generally do make the is being introduced to give further opportuni- travelling public aware. But the decision to
CHAMBER 68 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 travel is ultimately for the individual, and in of the advice then there might be further our democracy we do not see it as the right steps that government could take. If there or responsibility of the government to pro- was evidence that people disbelieved it, per- hibit individual travel. So individuals will haps there might be other ways to emphasise continue to make decisions taking into ac- its importance—but I have not seen that evi- count the risks, and I do not think that that is dence. I think people witnessed the experi- in any way an indictment of the travel advi- ence of the first Bali attack, the horrors of sory. the first Bali attack, in which 88 Australians Some might say that that is the public tak- were killed. They have seen a further attack ing undue risks. On the other hand, the pub- on Australian interests, our own embassy in lic in many ways also has the right not to be Jakarta late last year. They know of the at- intimidated by these threats and, in weighing tack on the Marriott in Jakarta. They know the threats and determining not to be intimi- these threats exist within Indonesia but they dated—to not allow terrorism to significantly were still determined to have their annual alter their way of life—they are in fact not holiday, and it is their right to do so if that is allowing themselves to be defeated by this their wish. They can take into account the threat. It is very difficult for the government travel advisories but, in the end, people are to interfere in that thought process as well. responsible for the decisions they make. So I think the travel advisories do their job. (Time expired) They inform the public, and I think each in- Indonesia: Terrorist Attacks dividual has the right to make their own de- Senator MASON (2.24 pm)—My ques- cision about whether or not to travel after tion is to the Minister for Justice and Cus- taking into account that information. toms, Senator Ellison. Will the minister up- Senator CHRIS EVANS—Mr President, date the Senate on the Australian govern- I ask a supplementary question. I thank the ment’s response to the horrific Bali bomb- minister for his answer, but I think he missed ings of last Saturday evening? the central tenet of the question, which is: Senator ELLISON—I thank Senator Ma- how do you measure the effectiveness of son for the question. Yesterday I advised the these travel advisories? Do they do their job, Senate that there were some 35 personnel in given that so many Australians are ignoring Bali representing Australian policing. That the message contained in them; and is the number has now risen to 41 and by tomor- government considering an alternative sys- row will be up to 45. Many of these officers tem that might be more effective? I would have had experience, through our investiga- also ask him to advise what tests and checks tions of the Marriott bombing, the previous are applied before information is included in Bali bombing in October 2002 and of course travel advisories, and can he confirm that the the embassy bombing last year. We have now basis for the latest updated travel advisory been joined by the British Metropolitan Po- for Bali is media reports, not intelligence? lice and the FBI, but I can say that in relation Senator HILL—In relation to the last to foreign policing Australian police are the point, I answered that in the previous ques- highest in number, and I think that is a sig- tion. It might have been that Senator Evans nificant aspect of the status we are given and was thinking of something else. I do not see the regard in which we are held in Indonesia. this as a criticism of the travel advisory. If We continue to enjoy very close working there was evidence that people were unaware relationships with the Indonesian authorities.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 69
And I can say that the diversity of expertise send a good message in relation to the fight that we have there covers a broad range of against terrorism, and we are certainly policing activities, be it investigative, intelli- checking our reports in Indonesia that the gence, forensic or indeed family liaison offi- remissions will be applied. cers. I understand that the President, when he I said yesterday that some 5,000 returning met with the Prime Minister on 16 Septem- passengers have been interviewed. I can now ber this year, indicated that he would review say that 4,000 have completed questionnaires these remissions, and we continue to make and, of those 4,000, 185 have provided in- representations in the strongest possible formation which is material to the investiga- terms to Indonesia that remissions should not tion. As I have said, any information that the apply to anyone convicted of a terrorist of- public can provide would be gladly accepted fence and that, should it do so, it certainly by the Australian Federal Police. We are sends the wrong message. But I can say that leaving no stone unturned in the investiga- we continue to enjoy a very close working tion of this matter and we are totally commit- relationship with the Indonesian authorities ted to bringing to justice all those who are and we have had nothing but the strongest responsible for this outrageous act. commitment from them in their resolve to There have been of course a number of find those responsible for this outrageous rumours circulating, and I want to clarify at attack. the outset that there has been no arrest to Privacy date in relation to this matter. Some people Senator STOTT DESPOJA (2.29 pm)— have been questioned; I understand that they My question is also to Senator Ellison, the have now been released. But I think that it is Minister representing the Attorney-General. wise for people to rely on official statements Does the minister believe it is appropriate from either the Indonesian National Police or that, under section 7C of the Privacy Act, the Australian Federal Police in this matter. It political acts or acts by political representa- is quite normal in this environment for there tives are exempt, even when it may involve a to be rumours circulating but it certainly politician, in this case a senator, deciding to does not help matters that people act on ru- disclose the personal medical information of mours and regard them as fact when indeed a woman who has undergone a late-term they are not. abortion? I would like to know if the gov- Some concern has also been expressed ernment thinks that that exemption is appro- over the question of a remission for Abu priate generally; but, specifically, was it in- Bakar Bashir. As applies in the Indonesian tended to cover activities of that kind? When judicial system, on Idul Fitri at the end of will this government consider amending the Ramadan in November, there is an automatic Privacy Act so that politicians like us are remission which applies across the board to a subject to the same privacy rules and princi- variety of prisoners—and also on Indonesian ples that apply to everyone else in the private Independence Day. We understand that, in and public sectors? the normal course of events, under the sys- Senator ELLISON—I must confess that tem Abu Bakar Bashir and 19 other con- the provisions of section 7C of the Privacy victed terrorists would benefit from these Act do not readily spring to mind, but I say remissions and we have protested as such to that, in relation to the particular matter at the Indonesian government. This does not hand—
CHAMBER 70 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Senator Chris Evans interjecting— sioner has acknowledged that this is not Senator ELLISON—I alert Senator Ev- within the jurisdiction of the act. So when ans to the fact that the Attorney-General has will the government change the act to ensure responsibility for privacy matters. In relation that politicians are subject to the same rules to the matter concerned, I am not aware of as all other members of the public? the detail of that. I acknowledge that Senator Senator ELLISON—I have given my as- Stott Despoja has a long-standing interest in surance to the Senate that I will look into this privacy matters, unlike others who profess to matter, and I will do that, but we have re- have so. In relation to the carrying out of our ferred to matters on many occasions without roles as members of parliament, we some- indicating who the individual is in order to times have to refer to issues which are in the demonstrate an issue which is being debated public interest. The very fact that we have in this chamber. I look around this chamber privilege in this chamber is a matter which is and I can see many senators who have done attendant upon our role, not because of who that, and I could say not inappropriately so, we are but what we are—that is, representa- because that has been to bring to the atten- tives. tion of this chamber and the parliament a If you can talk on matters and they touch matter of public importance. As to this par- on matters of privacy, of course one should ticular issue, I will look into that and get do so with some sensitivity. And we do so back to the Senate. when we are talking about a range of issues, Telecommunications: Competition such as matters that are before the courts and Reforms other matters. If we were to be precluded Senator RONALDSON (2.33 pm)—My from talking about matters of public interest question is the Minister for Communications, across the board because of some privacy Information Technology and the Arts, Sena- matter, it could well be that the interests of tor Helen Coonan. Given the significant re- the public might not be served. As to the de- cent discussions on the impact of regulation tail of this particular case, which I am not on the telecommunications industry, will the aware of, I will look into that and get back to minister update the Senate on how the gov- Senator Stott Despoja in due course. ernment’s competitive regulatory regime is Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Mr Presi- ensuring quality telecommunications ser- dent, I ask a supplementary question. I thank vices for all Australians? Is the minister the minister for his response, but ask him to aware of any alternative policies? not just take the matter on notice to provide Senator COONAN—I thank Senator more detail but investigate the issue. I ask Ronaldson for his question and for his inter- again: even if the minister claims that it is in est in these important issues. The answer is the public interest for politicians to have ac- that I am aware of the discussions surround- cess to information, surely this government ing the effects of regulation on the telecom- considers it inappropriate for politicians to munications sector and I can inform the Sen- be able to disclose sensitive—to use his ate that there is some material evidence that words—medical personal information and was released this week. The Australian get away with it because there is an exemp- Communications and Media Authority re- tion under the act that relates to political acts leased its analysis of how telecommunica- and practices. I am not suggesting that the tions carriers performed in 2004-05. I am act was illegal. In fact, the Privacy Commis- pleased to say that the figures show that Tel-
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 71 stra completed 96 per cent of its connections It is a frank admission. Machine men are not within the time frames required by the gov- interested in policy, only factions and pa- ernment’s customer service guarantee and tronage.’ that the proportion of repairs completed on I can assure the Australian people that, time rose one per cent to 92 per cent. Prior to unlike Senator Conroy and his colleagues, the introduction of the customer service the Howard government are vitally interested guarantee by the Howard government, peo- in providing consumers with competitive ple could wait up to 27 months. The time telecommunications services that meet their frame is now a maximum of 20 days. Optus needs. We have backed our strong policy connected 99 per cent of its CSG-eligible commitments not only with words but also customers and repaired 98 per cent of faults with a $3.1 billion package to ensure that within the required time frames. AAPT services around the country are adequate, achieved 97 per cent for connections and 98 both now and into the future. per cent for faults while Primus achieved 95 Illegal Fishing per cent for connections and 98 per cent for faults. Under Telstra’s network reliability Senator STERLE (2.37 pm)—My ques- framework, for each month in 2004-05, an tion is to Senator Ellison, Minister for Justice average of 99.06 per cent of services had no and Customs. Can the minister confirm that faults. These figures are very positive for there has been a surge in the number of ille- Australian consumers and demonstrate the gal fishing vessels spotted in Australian wa- success and importance of the tough regu- ters over the last year? Isn’t there evidence lated consumer safeguards that the govern- that these fishermen may be backed by or- ment has imposed on telecommunications ganised crime gangs, are well organised and providers. have adopted the tactic of building small, cheap boats that operate in groups to mini- I was asked about alternative policies. mise the chance of capture? Can the minister Under Labor, I think it is fair to say that no confirm that on the Indonesian island of Roti thought was given as to how to best regulate there is a steady supply of new boats being telecommunications services for consumers. built to replace the ones seized by Customs Labor did not have a customer service guar- and the Navy and that there is no shortage of antee, a network reliability framework or any crews because of the large financial returns priority assistance. In fact, when Labor pri- on offer? Can the minister indicate how vatised the Commonwealth Bank, Qantas, many illegal fishing vessels have been CSL and just about anything else that was sighted in Australian waters this year and, of not nailed down, it did so by stealth and these, how many have actually been appre- squandered the proceeds. I am sorry to say hended? that the ALP’s performance on telecommuni- cations is unlikely to improve any time soon. Senator ELLISON—The question of il- We know from the recent well-publicised legal fishing to the north of Australia is a book, The Latham Diaries, that communica- very important one and one which the gov- tions spokesman, Senator Conroy, told Mr ernment takes very seriously. It is true that Latham that he did not have any strong pol- apprehensions and legislative forfeitures of icy interests. Mr Latham said: ‘Stephen Con- foreign fishing vessels have increased sub- roy told me he does not have any strong pol- stantially over the years, particularly in the icy interests and maybe he would like the last two years. We have put resources to the communications portfolio, which I gave him. north of Australia which are unprecedented.
CHAMBER 72 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
We have, for instance, a Coastwatch centre organised fishing that Indonesia was experi- in Broome and in Darwin. We have some 33 encing, primarily from other countries in flights regularly between Broome and Dar- South-East Asia. This had, in effect, a flow- win and we have increased the number of sea on result for us in that the organised illegal days and aerial surveillance to the north with fishing coming down to Indonesia was in Navy, Air Force, Customs marine and also in fact pushing their fishing further south to- relation to Coastwatch. wards Australia. We are very keen to work In addition to that, we have set up our with the Indonesians in relation to control- Joint Offshore Protection Command, which ling our borders and in relation to incursions. will bring together all those assets. We saw I believe that the Indonesian government is that the other day when the HMAS Gerald- similarly concerned at the growth of organ- ton was tasked to investigate an incident ised illegal fishing. where the skipper of a WA fishing vessel Last week I was in East Timor and I raised alleged that two Indonesian fishermen tried it with my ministerial counterparts there. We to board his vessel. That was a matter which have a joint petroleum venture area and we we investigated. They have been charged can go into that large section of water but not with offences under the Fisheries Act. We without consent from the East Timorese. We understand that they claimed that it was a need that sort of cooperation in the region in risk of life situation and that that was the order to effectively defeat the threat of illegal reason for their attempted boarding. But, fishing. nonetheless, we take that very seriously. We have said that this is a regional issue. The question also raises the spectre of or- Senator Ian Macdonald and I met with state ganised crime. We have said repeatedly in fishing ministers just recently and we want to relation to the recent incursions that they bring on board all the states and territories in have been more organised than just the tradi- order to conduct this fight against illegal tional fishing vessels that we have seen in fishing. But I can tell you that in a recent the past. I have asked Customs and the Aus- operation in the gulf we had cooperation tralian Federal Police to look into the ques- from the Northern Territory and Queensland tion of the organised syndicates or groups but not so from Western Australia. We had backing these people. We are not convinced the Oceanic Viking, which fired shots and that transnational criminal networks are in- was instrumental in arresting four vessels. volved; we think that is more applicable to Yet Western Australia would not participate the Southern Ocean. Nonetheless, we are because they said it was not in their back- using our resources in the region to investi- yard. (Time expired) gate this. I opened a Customs office in Ja- Senator STERLE—Mr President, I ask a karta in April this year, and we are using that supplementary question. Isn’t it true that no office and Australian Federal Police in the new patrol capacity will be provided as a region working with our overseas posts to result of the $94 million measure to suppos- gauge the extent of the organised nature of edly counter the surge in illegal fishing that the fishing that we are seeing, which ema- was announced in this year’s budget? Is it a nates mainly from Indonesia. fact that most of this money will be spent When I was in Jakarta two months ago I creating a new processing and detention fa- raised this with my counterparts. They ex- cility for illegal fishermen in Darwin? Why pressed a concern in relation to the increased isn’t the government increasing the number
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 73 of boats on patrol in our northern waters to on the domestic and overseas markets. The actually apprehend more of the illegal fish- Australian government is committed to sup- ing vessels that are poaching our fish stocks? porting Australian rural industry to grow and Senator ELLISON—The $94 million to prosper. A great deal of effort has been put goes to very good work being done by Sena- in by this government in opening up bilateral tor Ian Macdonald in guarding our fishing trade opportunities that were totally over- stock in this country. It is an essential part of looked by previous governments. At the the fight against illegal fishing. It is a matter same time, this government is also endeav- of record that in previous budgets we in- ouring, through the multilateral round, to creased greatly our aerial surveillance and provide a more level playing field. So, in also our patrol boat hours in relation to terms of the government’s aspiration, yes, we guarding our borders. It was essential that we want citrus growers to be able to succeed provide the back-up to Fisheries in order to domestically and on the international market process those illegal fishermen. This does and we will continue to work towards that require a whole of government approach and objective. In relation to specific details con- whole of governments approach. All we are cerning the citrus industry, I will refer that asking is for the states and territories to join back to the Minister for Trade and hopefully with us in that exercise, but it is a shame that I might get some further information in the in Western Australia we do not get the coop- near future. eration that we get from Queensland and the Senator MILNE—Mr President, I ask a Northern Territory. supplementary question. I thank the minister Citrus Industry for his answer but, given that Biosecurity Australia yesterday announced a change of Senator MILNE (2.44 pm)—My ques- policy to permit the importation of an addi- tion is to the Minister representing the Minis- tional pear species from China, can the min- ter for Trade, Senator Hill. Can the minister ister confirm that this was part of the nego- confirm that the federal government has en- tiations to grant Australian citrus growers couraged Australian citrus growers to vacate access to China? If so, isn’t it a breach of the the domestic market and to concentrate in- WTO rules to tie market access for one creasingly on exporting their product? Can product to market access for another? he also confirm that Australian citrus grow- Doesn’t it also demonstrate the perils of ne- ers are suffering from unfair competition gotiating a free trade agreement with China? from imported products such that Brazilian Will the Australian government now with- refrigerated tankers unload fresh orange juice draw from talks on a China-Australia free at Australian ports while Australian growers trade agreement and instead turn its attention are unable to sell low-grade fruit for juice in to helping Australian growers remain viable Australia? Further, will the government now and ensuring food security for Australia? invoke emergency safeguard measures under the World Trade Organisation rules to in- Senator HILL—With great respect, the crease tariffs on imported citrus products, as supplementary question seemed to me to be the United States has already done, and re- all over the shop. Food security for Austra- view Australia’s antidumping laws to address lians is not the issue at point. The issue at the disadvantage Australian producers face? point is: how can we get fair access into in- ternational markets? This government has Senator HILL—The Australian govern- worked harder than any government of re- ment would like to see citrus growers thrive cent times in providing new and better access
CHAMBER 74 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 through bilateral agreements as well as con- industry treats that with some seriousness. I tinuing its efforts in the multilateral round. have discussed this with them at length. I This is the only way. The honourable senator consider it to be very serious as well. That is does not seem to appreciate that the Austra- why the Howard government has substan- lian domestic market will always be limited. tially increased its response to this threat. The great opportunity to expand is the poten- Back in Labor days, if anyone can remember tial beyond the domestic market. That is why back to those times, I think their record haul this government is so committed to widening of illegal foreign fishing vessels up in the the opportunities—not putting up new barri- north was about 40. So far this year, we have ers, as the honourable senator would suggest, apprehended some 135, I think, at last count. which would simply deem that there will The effort that is put into it demonstrates always be a limited and restricted opportu- why we are catching so many more. nity for growers. (Time expired) Senator O’Brien also asked about the set- Illegal Fishing ting up of camp on the mainland. There have Senator O’BRIEN (2.48 pm)—My ques- been reports of that. I have to say that a lot of tion is to Senator Ian Macdonald, the Minis- those reports have not been confirmed. When ter for Fisheries, Forestry and Conservation. they are confirmed, either we get the state Is the minister aware of serious concerns in authorities—and, of course, it is in state ar- the Australian fishing industry about the im- eas—to go and look at it or we send Com- pact of illegal fish poaching on our fish monwealth authorities to go and look at it. stocks? Hasn’t the growth of illegal fishing Where there have been incursions, the Aus- also led to incidents of illegal Indonesian tralian Quarantine Inspection Service imme- fishing crews setting up camp on the Austra- diately puts into place their plans to ensure lian coast? Can the minister confirm the the security of any areas that have been number of times this has occurred in the last landed upon by foreign nationals. In the in- 12 months? Given that the illegal fishermen cident Senator Ellison just spoke about in also carry animals on their boats, don’t these Western Australia where these Indonesian landings represent a serious quarantine risk? fishermen boarded an Australian vessel—I Along with the major threat to our fish think by mistake—but were later appre- stocks, doesn’t the increasing number of ille- hended by the Australian authorities, they gal fishing boats also have the potential to were not on the land when they were appre- undermine the security of our borders and, in hended but there was a suggestion they had addition, cause the spread of exotic diseases? been on the land. Immediately, the Australian government authorities went in to secure that Senator IAN MACDONALD—I thank particular site and make sure there was noth- Senator O’Brien for the question, which does ing left there that could be a problem. raise some issues that are of very great con- cern to the Australian government. The con- Senator O’Brien further asked me about cern we have, of course, has resulted in sub- animals and serious quarantine risk. I have stantially increased assets for all of our agen- heard about monkeys and fowls and all sorts cies dealing with the incursion of illegal for- of things, but I am not sure that those ru- eign fishermen, particularly, at this stage of mours have ever actually been confirmed. If the game, from Indonesia. I do understand— there is any evidence of animals on board I think it was the first question Senator vessels and that land, as I say, there is a plan O’Brien asked—that the commercial fishing that would be put in place immediately to
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 75 secure the area and to ensure the quarantine that Senator O’Brien has afforded me to talk protocol. about this figure of 8,000 that is bandied Senator O’Brien further asked whether around. This was something the state minis- this demonstrates a problem with our border ters were talking about because they misun- security. Quite the contrary: the amount of derstood the information until they got a effort that the Howard government has put briefing. The Queensland and Northern Ter- into the north is quite remarkable. Navy, ritory ministers now understand how this Customs, Coastwatch, Fisheries, Quarantine figure is calculated. It is not really that num- and Immigration people do a magnificent ber of sightings: there are double countings, job. We do rely on support from the fishing triple countings, quadruple countings; there industry, who give us some intelligence. We are things right on the border; and there are also work very closely with the Indonesian boats in the MOU box. Unfortunately, the government in the fight against illegal fish- Western Australian minister still waffles in ing. We continue to talk with Indonesian his ignorance. He was to come to two meet- ministers, not only in the instance that Sena- ings that I had arranged to explain this to tor Ellison mentioned but during the Austra- him, and on both occasions he did not bother lian-Indonesian Ministerial Forum in Can- to turn up. No wonder he waffles in his igno- berra where this issue was long and roundly rance because he simply does not under- canvassed. Senator Ian Campbell recently stand. When we wanted Western Australian spoke with an Indonesian minister about the fisheries officers to attack this problem, he same issue. The Indonesian and Timorese refused to make them available. (Time ex- ministers are visiting Australia in November pired) to further discuss this matter with me. (Time Murray-Darling Basin expired) Senator HEFFERNAN (2.55 pm)—My Senator O’BRIEN—I ask a supplemen- question is to the Minister for Agriculture, tary question, Mr President. I note the minis- Fisheries and Forestry, Senator Ian Mac- ter referred to the apprehension of 135 ves- donald—seeing as he is on a roll. Would the sels. I also note that Coastwatch talked about minister inform the Senate of how the Aus- 8,000 vessels being observed. In that context tralian government is working on the conser- and given the threat posed by both illegal vation of the Murray River? Will the minister fish poaching and illegal landing from fish- advise the Senate of any impediments to the ing vessels that is current and real, I wonder Australian government’s efforts? why the budget did not provide for an in- Senator IAN MACDONALD—I thank crease in the patrol vessel capacity in our Senator Heffernan for that question on the northern waters to counter this threat? Why Murray-Darling Basin Commission and the hasn’t the minister been able to deliver an river basin. It is Australia’s biggest river sys- increase, that is, additional patrol capacity, to tem and our most productive river basin. counter the surge in illegal fishing along our Senator Heffernan, my Liberal colleague, northern coastline? lives slap bang in the middle of the basin. Senator IAN MACDONALD—There Actually, before he was in this place, he has been substantial increased capacity and earnt his living from the basin, so he under- that continues to be reviewed by the gov- stands this matter very well. The government ernment, and we will allocate resources as has taken a very strong lead in conservation the risk requires. I might use the opportunity work in the Murray-Darling Basin through
CHAMBER 76 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 the Murray-Darling Basin Commission. Un- some pressure on the New South Wales La- der the constitutional set-up in Australia, of bor government to address that problem. course, the states have the land management While I am on that, during our Murray- and water management rights, but through Darling Basin Commission Ministerial the Murray-Darling Basin Commission the Council meetings—and we just had one last Commonwealth government has been able to Friday in Brisbane—over a period of years show a leadership role. ministers have committed to doing certain In 2003, in conjunction with the relevant things in the Murray-Darling Basin which states, we announced the Living Murray ini- will help to protect it. Ministers have gone tiative whereby we pledged to recover an out after those meetings and with great gusto average of 500 gigalitres of additional flow announced the work. All the Labor ministers in the Murray to help conserve outcomes for have been there along with the Common- six very important ecological sites. Mr Presi- wealth ministers. We get a lot of praise for dent, you might recall that, before the last the work we commit to do. A couple of years election, the Labor Party got a bit thingy later, though, when we then have to fund the about the Murray-Darling Basin. Mr Latham, work that everyone has roundly shouted their then leader, supported by all of the from the rooftops about, we find that the La- crowd opposite, promised to put 450 gi- bor state governments will not put up the galitres in, whereas the government had al- money. They agree to do the work but they, ready agreed to 500 gigalitres with the states particularly New South Wales, simply come to help with ecological sites. This was to and say, ‘I know we have agreed to do all of help the Barmah-Millewa Forest, the Gun- these things, but we are not going to give bower and Koondrook-Perricoota forests, the you the money to do them.’ I have to say that Hattah lakes, the Chowilla floodplain, the the New South Wales state government is a River Murray channel and the lower Co- serial offender in that. It is aided, supported orong and Murray mouth system. We have and abetted by the Victorian government, but now identified 240 gigalitres that will be put I think only out of solidarity to the Labor in the system— movement. The Victorian government is Senator Bob Brown—It’s not enough. much better at it. (Time expired) Senator IAN MACDONALD—It is infi- Media Ownership nitely more than has ever been done before, Senator CONROY (3.00 pm)—I ask the and that is why this government is recog- Minister for Communications, Information nised as the greenest government ever in Technology and the Arts, Senator Coonan, Australian history. We are looking for the whether she recalls her comments to the Na- additional 260 gigalitres needed to meet that tional Press Club in August: 500 gigalitre goal. Unfortunately, the states, ... I am looking at media ownership and foreign particularly the New South Wales govern- investment reform in conjunction with the ment—and I have to commend Victoria; they broader policy questions relating to digital tech- have been much more proactive—have been nology ... platforms. This is just common sense. very slow in identifying the additional infra- Does the minister recall also telling the Press structure required to get that additional flow. Club that it is essential that we look at a Senator Brown, if you have a concern, in- broader framework than containing it simply stead of giving the Labor Party preferences to cross and foreign? Is the minister aware of in New South Wales, you might really put reports last week that the Prime Minister has
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 77 abandoned digital television reforms that What is happening, as is well known, is would increase choice for consumers be- well documented and was referred to at great cause of opposition from media proprietors? length in my address to the Press Club, is Can the minister confirm that she has been that we are currently consulting with all overruled by the Prime Minister, and will the stakeholders—certainly not just those who minister now admit that the government’s run media businesses but all stakeholders— media policy is driven by the interests of the including people such as rights owners and media barons, not the interests of consum- all of those who have an interest and a stake ers? in ensuring that the government puts in place Senator COONAN—No, I am certainly a framework that will be responsive to the not aware of the comments attributed to the new and emerging media environment. So I Prime Minister by Senator Conroy. The am continuing to consult with stakeholders, situation is that the government has had a obviously with the authority of the govern- very longstanding policy to implement media ment to do so, as a means of achieving these ownership reforms, which includes the re- goals to ensure that we can place media laxation of the foreign ownership restrictions companies in a position to take advantage of and the relaxation of the cross-media reforms all of the new platforms and all of the new whilst maintaining the specific media con- technologies whilst at the same time protect- centration rules and with a view to protecting ing diversity, because the end game is that diversity. So the current position is that there consumers must have the benefit of these are under consideration a number of re- reforms together with the industry. sponses to digital reviews that have been Senator Conroy is quite wrong to imply mandated in the legislation. Included in those that any decisions have been made about any digital reviews are a number of matters of these matters. He is quite wrong to impute which are self-executing in any event, such to the Prime Minister any particular ruling as some relaxations that will happen quite out of any of these proposals. We will con- irrespective of whether or not the govern- tinue to put in place a framework that will be ment makes another decision, because they responsive and will deliver, as we do with all are mandated to occur within the legislation. of our policy positions, for the benefit of all The government has committed to reform- Australians. ing media ownership laws because they are Senator CONROY—Mr President, I ask outmoded, and even Senator Conroy would a supplementary question. I ask the minister appreciate, although he has not a strong in- whether she recalls her comments to the Aus- terest in communications or in media—he tralian on digital television in August when has admitted that; it has been well docu- she stated: mented in Mr Latham’s diaries that he has I’m not interested in shutting down new and in- not much interest in communications—that teresting ways to do things ... I’m going to make there are a number of other platforms now sure that the free-to-air (networks), as well as the available and a plethora of ways in which other providers, have an opportunity to take ad- people can now get news and views over a vantage of all of these new ways of doing things number of other platforms besides the regu- and getting viewers. lated platforms that the government has un- Can the minister advise the Senate whether der consideration as part of the reforms that these views are shared by the Prime Minis- it has on tap. ter?
CHAMBER 78 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Senator COONAN—I thank Senator ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON Conroy for a supplementary that was a bit of NOTICE a non sequitur. Every single time that Sena- Question Nos 907 and 908 tor Conroy opens his mouth on these issues Senator ALLISON (Victoria—Leader of he proves that he knows less and less about the Australian Democrats) (3.06 pm)— this portfolio that he is supposed to be get- Pursuant to standing order 74(5) I ask the ting across. His ill-founded response to my Minister representing the Minister for Health comments on media shows that he has abso- and Ageing for an explanation as to why an- lutely no idea about diversity, he has no idea swers have not been provided to questions on about what the mandated positions are that notice No. 907 and No. 908, which were are going to happen in any event and he does asked on 11 May this year. not even know how many media proprietors there are in both the Victorian and the Syd- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator ney markets. He has even got that wrong. It Allison, you did miss the call, but I am pre- is time that Senator Conroy goes back, gets pared to take your point and then we will across his portfolio and then asks some ques- resume debate on the motion to take note of tions based on some facts instead of supposi- answers. tion. Senator ALLISON—I would point out Senator Hill—Mr President, I ask that that I was standing right at the point when further questions be placed on the Notice Senator Hill stood. There has been an issue Paper. with the crossbench not being recognised in seeking your attention—on numerous occa- The PRESIDENT—Are there any mo- sions, if I may say so. tions to take note of answers? I call Senator O’Brien. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I would just point out to you that I was not in the QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: chair when the motion to take note of an- TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS swers commenced. That had commenced Illegal Fishing before I assumed the chair. If the record Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (3.06 notes that then I am quite happy. I do not pm)—I move: think the appropriate minister is here, Sena- That the Senate take note of the answers given tor Allison. by the Minister for Justice and Customs (Senator Senator ALLISON—I move: Ellison) and the Minister for Fisheries, Forestry That the Senate take note of the minister’s and Conservation (Senator Ian Macdonald) to failure to provide either an answer or an explana- questions without notice asked by Senators Sterle tion. and O’Brien today relating to illegal fishers. I point out that my office contacted the office Senator Ferguson—This is the subject of of the Minister representing the Minister for an MPI. Health and Ageing and indicated that I would Senator O’BRIEN—I welcome the inter- request an answer from the minister today. jection from Senator Ferguson because, yes, So this is disappointing. Maybe it is because we do propose to further discuss this matter of the mix-up and not being recognised at today, but the reality is that we could not— this end of the chamber. I do not know. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I am sorry Maybe that was an opportunity to sneak out, to interrupt; I call Senator Lyn Allison. as it were.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 79
I do ask that the Senate note that these information had been provided. It is four questions were asked back in May, so they months on and it is still not here and the min- are now four months overdue. I will just go ister is not in this place to explain why it is through them. I asked the minister to confirm that that information has not been provided. that the Australian Drug Evaluation Commit- I think it is the case that I have about 11 tee report of the Working Party on the Regis- questions that have not been answered and tration of Drugs for Use in Children was that are similarly long outstanding. I could completed way back in 1997 for the Thera- probably stand here for the rest of the after- peutic Goods Administration and to provide noon going through them but I would expect an outline of the recommendations made by the same situation to apply—that is, the min- that working party, what action had been ister is not here or available to explain why it planned and what action had been taken to is that answers have not been provided. I implement the recommendations of that notice that Minister Hill is still in the cham- working party, whether the working party ber. On a number of occasions I have made a had been discontinued—as I suspect it has— request with respect to his answer to my and, if so, what follow-up studies had been question No. 29, which was put on notice on established. We are talking about drugs for 16 November last year and still remains un- children, and I would have thought there answered by Senator Hill. I think it is appall- would be some urgency in responding to ing that the government shows so little inter- such questions—unless, of course, this is so est and so little regard for questions that are embarrassing that the government is not able properly put. to do so. Senator Hill—What is the question? I also asked the Minister representing the Senator ALLISON—Minister, presuma- Minister for Health and Ageing whether the bly, you have asked me about your question. government had undertaken any investiga- I asked the Leader of the Government in the tions into the factors that have contributed to Senate: when will the minister respond to my the increase in government rebates for IVF letter of 7 April concerning orders for the services over the past 10 years and, if so, production of documents? Here again we whether a copy could be provided of any have seen a government very dismissive information or report resulting from investi- about requests for the production of docu- gations; what groups, if any, were consulted ments in this place—returns to order. I in fact prior to May 2005 regarding possible restric- wrote to you, Senator Hill, in November last tions on access to Medicare rebates for IVF year saying that there was an interpretation procedures; what data the government had of the government’s responsibility with re- on the proportion of Australian women ac- gard to this that was all over the place like a cessing IVF services; changes in the propor- dog’s dinner, if I can use that term; that is, tion over the past 10 years; and the range and some ministers were saying— average number of IVF cycles undertaken by a fertile woman. I also asked for information Senator Hill—What documents? What to be provided on the average out-of-pocket subject matter? costs for women on a single cycle of IVF Senator ALLISON—Documents gener- over the past 10 years. I asked that question ally, Senator Hill. It is about the excuses that at a time when this debate was under way in are provided by ministers in this place for the community. It was my view that we not providing documents. There is no consis- could not have a proper debate unless that tency with those excuses. There is no rhyme
CHAMBER 80 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 or reason why half of them are even used or form of additional vessels had not been ap- constitute reasonable reasons for not allow- plied to dealing with the problem. ing the Senate to have those documents. I put We had a question from Senator Sterle this to you in a very well-considered letter about organised crime being involved, and and asked you to respond. It is now almost a Minister Ellison acceded to the proposition year and I still do not have any answer from that organised crime is believed to be in- you. Senator Hill, you are as bad as anybody volved. We had Senator Sterle talking about else, as far as I can see, in being so dismis- small, inexpensive vessels constructed on the sive of the Senate and its right, I would ar- Indonesian island of Roti being used be- gue, to access information and documents as cause, if they were captured, they could eas- necessary. ily be replaced. I understand that Minister It is a disappointment that the Minister Ellison acceded to that proposition. We had representing the Minister for Health and Minister Ian Macdonald acceding— Ageing is not here. No doubt she will say she reluctantly nevertheless—to the proposition did not get notice from my office. I will that illegal fishermen were supposed to be check again. It is usually the case that the setting up camp on the Australian coastline notice was indeed provided to the office. and that there was intelligence that suggested Nonetheless, it seems to me that, even if no- they were bringing animals onto the coast- tice were not given, ministers should hang line that would create a quarantine risk for about to make sure that there is not some- this country. Minister Macdonald tried to thing that senators wish to ask. explain that away by saying, ‘After the Question agreed to. event, we send some crews in where we know there has been an incursion and we try QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: and deal with the problem.’ The fact of the TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS matter is that there are thousands of incur- Consideration resumed. sions, and Minister Macdonald suggesting Illegal Fishing that 135 interceptions and apprehensions is a Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (3.14 good statistic in the light of thousands of pm)—I moved earlier to take note of answers incursions is, frankly, an admission that the given in question time today to opposition government is incapable of dealing with this questions regarding illegal fishing in Austra- new threat. lia’s northern waters. Minister Macdonald suggested that, al- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—You are in though Coastwatch had observed more than order, Senator O’Brien. 8,000 vessels, there was double or triple counting and the number was not anywhere Senator O’BRIEN—Thank you. I noted near 8,000. He did not say, of course, that an interjection earlier about this being a mat- Coastwatch do not look at every area every ter for the MPI today. The reason that we are day, so what they observe is not necessarily taking note is the incredible answers pro- the actual number of incursions that is taking vided by Ministers Ellison and Ian Mac- place. If you reduce the 8,000 by a factor of donald today. Frankly, the thrust of the ques- two or three and then multiply it by the num- tions was to point out the dramatic increase ber of days and areas that they are not in- in illegal fishing in Australia’s northern wa- volved in, you are probably back to a figure ters and the paucity of the government re- of around 8,000, if not more, incursions into sponse as to why additional resources in the Australian waters. That is over 20 incursions
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 81 a day into Australian waters, with pillaging peer border protection. It is seen that way of Australian fishing stocks. around the world. The globe continually The intelligence is that the shark fishery in looks to Australia for leadership in this area. Indonesian waters is such that the stock is in I am miffed that we could not find something danger and the fishermen are now coming else to talk about today. into Australian waters to take shark because I am very proud to be part of a govern- shark fin is so valuable in South-East Asian ment that has a record of dealing with some markets. The government have no response of the most sophisticated threats to our to that. The government say that they are northern fishery. It is not that we are always building a detention centre in Darwin and dealing with 200-metre vessels that have the they are finding a place to incarcerate fish- most sophisticated GPS. The sophistication ermen that are captured, but they are only of the challenge is that we are dealing with capturing a small number of fishermen, and every single type of demographic. We have the modus operandi of the fishermen has everything from very small canoes to quite changed so that they are in smaller groups large ex-Taiwanese gill netters operating in and in smaller vessels spread across the fish- the area. ery, perhaps with mother ships outside Aus- It is surprising that those on the other side tralian waters. The government have no re- of the chamber do not have an understanding sponse to this way of predating upon the of this. I understand that being in opposition Australian fishing stocks. must be a bit difficult in getting information, Is it any wonder, as is conceded by Minis- but I think the internet and a few calls around ter Macdonald, that the Australian fishing the place would help you understand that the industry is alarmed that we have no response basis of this situation is that the income of to illegal fishermen predating upon and en- the average Indonesian fisherman working dangering the fishing stock in Australian wa- around some of these places is $480 a year. ters, endangering the livelihood of Australian With the average shark fetching between fishermen and at the same time introducing $200 and $600 a kilo, you can actually make risk to the Australian coastline and threaten- $2,000 for every shark you catch. Obviously ing to board Australian vessels? The situation this is not an issue that is necessarily going shows that the government has failed to pro- to go away, but still, in facing that sophisti- tect Australia’s oceans and failed to protect cated challenge and that huge economic push Australia’s borders and it brings the govern- that continues to be there, this government, ment’s claim of being strong on border pro- in contrast with those on the other side of the tection into stark relief as being, in this area, chamber, has sent out a very clear and hard an abject failure. (Time expired) message. Senator SCULLION (Northern Territory) The opposition give me a bit of humour (3.19 pm)—I rise with some amazement in with my fishing mates over a very small this debate on the motion to take note of an- glass of wine at night. The opposition talk swers on illegal fishing. I understood when I about their coastguard. The immediate an- came to this place that the idea is that the swer to this problem, according to those on opposition pick on something that the gov- the other side, is a can of paint and a cup- ernment is weak in. I am absolutely amazed board of new uniforms. ‘We have got the that they have decided to push an attack once coastguard—no worries about that! We are again on our wondrous and probably without simply going to paint the boats blue, put a
CHAMBER 82 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 red stripe on them and run out a new uni- wish to come to our waters to steal and do form.’ Let me tell you, Mr Deputy President, damage. that that unsophisticated and clumsy ap- There have also been some accusations proach to a very sophisticated challenge is from the other side about sightings. A lot of not going to be seen by anyone as making those sightings come through me. People any contribution to this debate at all. ring me, and they are disturbed about these It went to the ridiculous when they had sorts of things and about some of these sight- people like Bob McClelland going to Amer- ings. The stories about bringing animals to ica—it was pre-election, so they were all the Australian mainland are a complete fur- pretty much in this Lathamesque moment— phy. The Australian government are very people who one moment were attacking the proud of an excellent compliance regime that United States foreign policy like some ben- has slowed down Indonesian fishermen. It zedrine puff adder and who the next moment continues to send them a clear message that, were saying: ‘While you’re over there, Bob, if they come to Australia with the intent of have a bit of a look at their Coastwatch pol- stealing fish, they will be stopped. (Time ex- icy. We’ll have a look at that. We might even pired) be able to borrow it.’ Borrow it? They took it Senator STERLE (Western Australia) holus bolus. It included, of course, the won- (3.24 pm)—I rise to take note of answers derful idea of people hanging out of helicop- given today by the Minister for Fisheries, ters shooting at boats with rifles. If that is the Forestry and Conservation and the Minister level of sophistication, I really think they for Justice and Customs to questions asked should have picked on another issue. about the repeated incursions by foreign We have put a very serious stamp of com- fishermen into Australian waters. What an pliance across this very wide and difficult unconvincing performance it was. The drivel arena. We already have 15 craft working in the honourable ministers gave for answers to that area. Both Customs and the Royal Aus- the serious questions the opposition asked tralian Navy work literally thousands of sea about Australia’s border security is typical of days every year. I take this opportunity to the arrogance of this out-of-touch govern- defend their reputation—the huge efforts that ment. But we should not be surprised by the these men and women put in in sometimes ministers’ answers to questions on this im- the most difficult of conditions. They are portant issue. The neglect of border security simply to be commended and not to be criti- is a whole-of-government approach for the cised. They do an absolutely excellent job. In Howard government, from the Prime Minis- testament to the effort they make, there have ter down. been 1,261 administrative seizures in the last Jon Ford, the Western Australian Minister five years, and they burnt and destroyed 555 for Fisheries, is doing his best to care for the vessels. The other side talked about the won- fragile marine ecology of Western Australian derful industry on Roti Island. Let me tell waters by creating sanctuary zones in marine you as a fact that Roti’s capacity in boat- parks and adjusting bag limits, only to be building in 1997 was six vessels a year. That undermined by the Howard government’s information arrived on my desk five minutes inability to keep looting foreign fishermen ago. That huge industrial capacity is not go- out of Western Australian waters. Minister ing to replace 555 boats in anyone’s lan- Ford has been calling on the Howard gov- guage and anyone’s time. This cuts at the ernment to account for its failure to respond core of the capacity of those people who
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 83 to the massive numbers of illegal fishing the government was doing its job properly vessels that are pillaging Western Australian when it came to protecting Australian waters waters. But the Howard government do not from illegal fishing vessels. What was the like the success he has been having in draw- Prime Minister’s answer? He said, ‘What ing public attention to their failures. you’re seeing at the moment is the system Senator Macdonald, the Commonwealth working.’ He then went on to boast that au- minister for fisheries, gave the game away thorities were on track to catch 180 illegal the other day when he said: fishing boats throughout Australian waters this year. Bravo! I wonder if the Prime Min- The WA Government needs to take a dose of reality and if there are problems in WA waters ister is aware that Coastwatch aircraft spot- then they should be policing them … ted more than 8,000 vessels in the last finan- cial year alone—and the Prime Minister If the honourable minister knew anything hopes to catch 180 of them! Is this the Prime about his portfolio, he would know that ‘WA Minister’s idea of a system that is working? waters’ are a thin band around the coast of Western Australia. And what are they sur- As I said earlier, the neglect of border se- rounded by? What surrounds WA waters? curity is a whole-of-government approach Commonwealth waters! What a clown— for the Howard government. Minister Ellison what an absolute clown. Someone get a put in a shocker of a performance the other stretcher, the minister has shot himself in the day. He said that the government was being foot. How do these boats appear in Western proactive in its response to illegal fishers and Australian waters? Do they teleport there? rejected the Western Australian government’s Do they get there by osmosis? No. The only assertions that more resources were needed reason there would ever be a problem in WA to ensure the security of both the Western waters would be if the Howard government Australian border and fish stocks. That is had failed in its responsibility to police because Minister Ellison has a cunning plan. Commonwealth waters. Minister Ellison does not believe more re- sources are needed; he believes fewer re- What is the attitude of the honourable sources are needed. That is why, instead of senator to this admission of failure? He standing up for Western Australia’s interests, wants the Western Australian government to he is standing up to protect the Howard gov- take a dose of reality. The reality is that this ernment’s decision to remove, as of March government talks big about border protection next year, $1.2 million a year in funding for but, when it is put to the test, it fails. You can the internal operations unit based in Western imagine the Prime Minister at election time, Australia. up on the podium, his bottom lip sticking out as he says, ‘We will decide who fishes in The internal operations unit’s purpose is to Australian waters and the circumstances in combat illegal fishing incursions by foreign which they fish.’ If you listen to this gov- vessels. Apparently, WA does not need it ernment at election time they will have you anymore. Is this another example of what the believe that they actually care about border Prime Minister means when he says that the security. But, once the election is over, it is a system is working? Minister Ellison likes to completely different story—a story of buck boast about what he likes to call ‘the un- passing and neglect. precedented resources’ the Howard govern- ment is devoting to protecting Australian Just the other day the Prime Minister was waters. He loves to tell people about the 33 asked on talkback radio whether he thought flights a week between Broome and Darwin.
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Can you imagine the flights? The pilot is taken us 10 years to pick up the pieces from looking out of the window and saying: the Hawke-Keating shemozzle. They never ‘There’s one. There’s one. Look, there’s an- spent a cent on protecting Australia’s bor- other one.’ Eight thousand a year and the ders. We had to go out there and handle all of Prime Minister hopes to catch 180. The the illegal immigration and all of the illegal Howard government’s system is allowing fishing; we had to upgrade security; defence droves of Indonesian fishermen who could had to be upgraded—we have spent billions be exposed to tuberculosis, carrying hens of dollars repairing the damage of Labor be- exposed to the avian flu and being kept com- cause of their profligate neglect of security pany by dogs that could be exposed to ra- and border protection. Do not come in here bies— (Time expired) with your hollow, cheap, point-scoring attack Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia) when state Labor in Western Australia is (3.29 pm)—Why are none of us on this side dropping its fishing patrol unit for the want of the chamber surprised that at question of, allegedly, $1.2 million in the face of its time and during the debate to take note the $1.3 billion surplus. What hollow, crocodile Labor Party would come in here to try to get tears! When will you learn? The Australian some political mileage—some cheap politi- public are never going to be sucked in by cal point scoring—out of illegal fishing? It is such cheap political chicanery. a very serious issue, and yet we have just Senator George Campbell—You heard the last opposition senator make frivo- couldn’t even go for five minutes! lous, humorous remarks. Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) Let me tell you how seriously Labor take (3.33 pm)—Does that mean I get to go for this. WA announced just recently that they seven minutes? I do not? What a pity! You were going to close a fishing patrol unit be- see, we have Senator Johnston smirking and cause the Commonwealth was not funding not even serious about his contribution to them to the tune of $1.2 million. Let us get this debate. There is no genuine offer, trying that in some sort of context. This is how to validate the government’s position. He much Labor really cares about it. Guess how cannot even defend the government for five much the surplus budget will deliver to this minutes. The illegal fishing debacle in our state Labor government this year: $1.3 bil- northern waters is an absolute sham. It has lion. And for the price of $1.2 million, they long been a problem. Senator Johnston allege, they are going to close their fishing would want us to believe that it goes all the patrol unit. That is how much they care. way back to the Hawke and Keating days. They care not a jot for fishing. All they care Well, you have been in government for nine about is coming in here and trying to snatch long years now, Senator Johnston, and it is a cheap vote with a very crass, weak, pa- about time the federal government actually thetic argument about fishing in an environ- did something about the illegal fishing prob- ment where Australia has never had so much lem in our northern waters and the depletion surveillance or so much expenditure. of fish stocks that is occurring. We are replacing 15 Fremantle class patrol It is a growing problem and it clearly boats with 14 Armidale class patrol boats. needs far more attention and resources than We have more Customs patrol boats and this current government is prepared to give more AFFA fishing control boats in this re- it. An article in the Australian on 6 Septem- gion than ever before. Let me tell you: it has ber said:
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SIGHTINGS of foreign fishing boats in Austra- And the boats are getting bigger and more lian waters ... have leapt 50 per cent over two sophisticated. They are carrying GPS and years—and most of them are there illegally. navigation equipment. There can be abso- A briefing paper by the Australian Fisheries lutely no doubt that they know just where Management Authority, obtained under Freedom they are. They have freezer facilities so they of Information laws, shows sightings ... average can catch and carry far bigger amounts of 22 a day and that a total of 8108 were spotted last fish. In an interview on the ABC radio morn- financial year. ing program on 17 August, Ian Smith, the That is the number my colleague mentioned. CEO of the Northern Territory Seafood Of course, most of them cannot be appre- Council said, ‘We’ll continue our lobbying, hended as either they are too close to the trying to send wake-up calls, saying, “Look, border or there are simply no Australian ves- we have a problem and it’s been ongoing.”’ sels near enough to catch them. You can have He went on to say: ‘I mean, it’s not getting planes fly over as often as you like and blue any better. In fact, it’s probably getting dots can be placed on a map by a computer worse.’ as often as you like but, unless you actually We have the amateur fishing association have enough boats in the area and enough continually ringing my office and complain- people in the area to do something about ing, and rightfully so, that this government is these vessels, the plan will not work. Fur- not doing enough to stop this problem. The thermore, the Australian said that Customs issue that has been raised by my colleagues told them there has been a 60 per cent in- about quarantine is a fact. Senator Scullion, crease in the number of foreign boats appre- one of the boats in the harbour that your hended by Customs and Navy in the past 12 company looks after was known to have a months. No-one is doubting the enormous dog on it in recent months, and an answer to effort that is put in by Customs officials and a question on notice that I received from this by our defence people, but clearly the gov- government signalled that that was a prob- ernment has to realise that the effort is not lem. enough, that their plan is not working and that there needs to be much more attention Senator Scullion—Mr Deputy President, given to this problem. I rise on a point of order. The senator just said that there were boats in Darwin Harbour Not only have the number of boats gone being looked after by my company. She up but the boats are coming closer. For ex- knows full well that is not the case. I have ample, in the Northern Territory they come absolutely no association with Barefoot Ma- right down into the Gulf of Carpentaria wa- rine, and for three years in this place com- ters, down and around Groote Eylandt, and mittees of this chamber discussed that and they have been seen close in and around the found unequivocally that that was not the Wessel Islands, not far north of Nhulunbuy. case. I think she should withdraw that re- Local northern fishery boats regularly see mark. and report on foreign boats. In fact, we have had some up the creek at Maningrida. On 18 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—It really is April on ABC radio Mr Gary Ward, the chair not a point of order; it is a debating point, but of the Gulf Fishermen’s Association, said: your point has been noted. ... there’s God knows how many boats out there Question agreed to. and it’s just open slather ... the Gulf is just full of them.
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Privacy honourable members would recall, made Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- during the last election campaign in the tralia) (3.39 pm)—I move: voices of, I believe, the Prime Minister and the Treasurer, Peter Costello, to silent num- That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Justice and Customs (Senator bers held by electors. Those people did not Ellison) to a question without notice asked by disclose that information, nor did they seek Senator Stott Despoja today relating to the Pri- to come home and hear a cutesy election vacy Act. message on their answering machine. The My question related to section 7C of the Pri- problem is that it cannot be investigated and vacy Act, which exempts political acts and it is not within the jurisdiction of the Privacy practices from privacy laws. It is something I Commissioner. Why? Because of these wide have commented on on numerous occasions, ranging exemptions that we politicians enjoy and I have moved amendments in this place but other businesses, industry, individuals to prevent politicians—that is, all of us— and public sector organisations et cetera do enjoying this wide ranging exemption under not enjoy. It is time to change that. the Privacy Act. The Privacy Act in 2000 More alarmingly, in the Senate today I re- was extended to include the private sector, ferred to a case that is ongoing and has re- but it did not extend to politicians. I think the ceived widespread coverage. That is the alle- time has come for this government to seri- gation that Senator McGauran was responsi- ously consider, if not immediately amend, ble for obtaining and disclosing the medical the Privacy Act to, as a minimum, remove records of a woman who had undergone a the exemption for politicians but also per- late-term abortion. We certainly read about it haps more broadly strengthen the provisions in a piece written by Meagan Shaw in the relating to medical and sensitive informa- Age newspaper, which reported that the name tion—in particular, medical records. I have of the woman was sent to them in the infor- talked often as well about the need for pri- mation provided to them by Senator McGau- vacy protection of genetic information, and I ran. I am not saying that; that was written in will continue to bang on about that issue for the piece. Regardless of what you feel about as long as it takes for us to get protection of the information being obtained without con- privacy information in this place. sent or being disclosed, there has to be a big- A couple of issues have come to the atten- ger debate in this place about whether or not, tion of members of this place and the public when the act refers to political acts and po- in recent times. One of them was through the litical practices, we are really talking about Democrat initiated Senate inquiry into pri- medical records. Is it really the case that the vacy laws in this country, where we heard act intends that they not be under the juris- evidence from a number of individuals and diction of the Privacy Commissioner? organisations like the Privacy Foundation, There are other issues beyond the allega- the Australian Medical Association, the pri- tions against Senator McGauran. There is a vacy commissioner for Victoria and others dispute that involves the Royal Women’s that demonstrated that the political exemp- Hospital and the Medical Practitioners tion was wide ranging, out of date and inap- Board. In that case, the Melbourne Magis- propriate and had never been seriously justi- trate’s Court ordered that the woman’s health fied. We heard of one case where the juris- and medical information be disclosed to the diction of the federal Privacy Commissioner Medical Practitioners Board despite the pa- did not extend to phone calls, which some tient’s refusal, despite the patient’s lack of
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 87 consent. I use that case to illustrate one thing We, therefore, the individual, undersigned atten- and one thing only: that we should get rid of dees at St Simon’s Catholic Church, Rowville, this ridiculous exemption that we have under VIC 3178 petition the Senate in support of the law that businesses and public sector and above mentioned motion. other organisations are not subject to. I will AND we, as in duty bound will ever pray. be introducing a private member’s bill to by Senator Kemp (from 55 citizens). make sure this happens if the government Petitions received. does not beat me to it, and I invite them to do NOTICES so. (Time expired) Presentation Question agreed to. Senator Siewert to move on the next day PETITIONS of sitting: The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged That the Senate— for presentation as follows: (a) notes that: Detention Centres (i) the mouth of the Murray River in South To the Honourable the President and the Members Australia is in terminal decline and of the Senate in Parliament assembled: risks permanent collapse unless more The petition of the undersigned shows that citi- water is provided for the river, zens are deeply concerned about the proposal to (ii) scientific studies and surveys of the establish an immigration detention centre at the internationally-protected area show Shaftesbury Campus. that: Your petitioners request that the Senate take all (A) the Coorong was Australia’s largest steps available to cause this proposal to be with- permanent breeding colony for peli- drawn. cans, however pelicans have not by Senator Hogg (from 80 citizens). bred for almost 4 years, Asylum Seekers (B) brine shrimp, never before recorded in the Coorong, are now as thick as To the Honourable the President and the Members soup, of the Senate in Parliament assembled: (C) salinity levels are three times that of Whereas the 1998 Synod of the Anglican Diocese sea water, of Melbourne carried without dissent the follow- ing motion: (D) 12 species of fish are locally extinct, and “That this Synod regrets the Government’s adop- tion of procedures for certain people seeking po- (E) numbers of migratory wader birds litical asylum in Australia which exclude them have dropped from 150 000 in the from all public income support while withholding 1980s to 50 000 now, while numbers permission to work, thereby creating a group of of the curlew sandpiper have beggars dependent on the Churches and charities dropped from 40 000 to 2 000, for food and the necessities of life; (iii) Professor Peter Cullen, a member of and calls upon the Federal government to review the Wentworth Group of Concerned such procedures immediately and remove all Scientists and a commissioner on the practices which are manifestly inhumane and in National Water Commission, states that some cases in contravention of our national obli- it is time for governments to start buy- gations as a signatory of the UN Covenant on ing water on the open market to boost Civil and Political Rights.” water flows, and (iv) the diverse interests supporting the purchase of water on the open market,
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including the newly established Na- pose (i.e. enabling workers to achieve a tional Floodplain Graziers Association, balance between paid work and family re- the South Australian Member of The sponsibilities and to participate in their Nationals and the Minister for the communities by discouraging employers River Murray, Ms Karlene Maywald, from employing them outside or beyond and the New South Wales Minister for normal hours); the Environment, Mr Bob Debus; (b) the cost impact of shift allowances on (b) recognises that the quickest and most cost- employers who are unable to afford to op- effective way of meeting environmental erate for as long as they would like be- flow targets is to purchase water on the cause of having to pay shift allowances; open market; and (c) the extent to which overtime has become a (c) calls on the Government to: means for employers to compensate work- (i) support the purchase of water on the ers for low pay; open market, and (d) whether overtime and shift allowances are (ii) address this national emergency. sufficiently effective in achieving their original purpose, and if not, what other Senator Carr to move on the next day of measures could be adopted to achieve this sitting: objective now; and That the Senate opposes attempts by the Gov- (e) if the payment of overtime and shift al- ernment to restrict the franchise and reduce the lowances ceased to be mandatory, what transparency of the Australian electoral system. mechanism would be used to compensate Senator Siewert to move on the next day those workers who rely on overtime as an of sitting: essential part of their take home pay. That the Senate— Senators Eggleston and Webber to move (a) notes the medical evidence that exposure on the next day of sitting: to radiation from depleted uranium muni- That the Senate— tions is a health hazard; (a) congratulates Professor Barry J Marshall (b) notes that the military of the United States and Dr J Robin Warren on being awarded of America (US) still deploys depleted the 2005 Nobel Prize in Physiology or uranium munitions in a wide variety of Medicine in recognition of their joint dis- weapons systems; and covery that gastric inflammation and al- (c) calls on the Government to seek a written most all gastric and duodenal ulcers are commitment from the US that depleted caused by Helicobacter pylori; uranium munitions will not be used on (b) notes that the two medical scientists per- Australian training ranges or in exercises sisted with their research in spite of enor- in Australian waters. mous scepticism from the medical profes- Senator Fielding to move on the next day sion and that the award of the Nobel Prize of sitting: is a fitting reward for their scientific curi- osity when, having made observations That the following matter be referred to the which did not fit in with conventional Employment, Workplace Relations and Education thinking, they courageously applied the References Committee for inquiry and report by scientific method to prove their results; 25 November 2005: and The matter of overtime and shift allowances, (c) acknowledges the great benefit their dis- with particular reference to: covery has brought to mankind in demon- (a) the effectiveness of shift allowances and strating that most forms of gastric in- overtime in achieving their original pur- flammation and ulcers are caused by
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Helicobacter pylori and are treatable with person, and the service being of at least 20 min- antibiotics at low cost. utes in duration. Senator Crossin to move on the next day The Committee has written to the Minister seek- of sitting: ing advice on these matters. That the time for the presentation of the report Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (3.45 of the Legal and Constitutional References Com- pm)—On behalf of the Standing Committee mittee on the administration of the Migration Act on Regulations and Ordinances, I give notice be extended to 1 December 2005. that at the giving of notices on the next day Senator Bob Brown to move on the next of sitting I shall withdraw business of the day of sitting: Senate notice of motion No.1 standing in my That the following matter be referred to the name for nine sitting days after today for the Legal and Constitutional References Committee disallowance of the Maritime Transport Se- for inquiry and report: curity Amendment Regulations 2005 (No. 1), All matters relating to the arrest and deporta- as contained in Select Legislative Instrument tion of American citizen, Mr Scott Parkin. 2005 No. 115 and made under the Maritime Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (3.44 Transport Security Act 2003. I seek leave to pm)—On behalf of the Standing Committee incorporate in Hansard the committee’s cor- on Regulations and Ordinances, I give notice respondence concerning this instrument. that 15 sitting days after today I shall move: Leave granted. That the Health Insurance (Allied Health and The correspondence read as follows— Dental Services) Determination 2005 made under Maritime Transport Security Amendment subsection 3C(1) of the Health Insurance Act Regulations 2005 (No. 1), Select Legislative 1973, be disallowed. Instrument 2005 No. 115 I seek leave to incorporate in Hansard a 11 August 2005 short summary of the matters raised by the The Hon Warren Truss MP committee. Minister for Transport and Regional Services Leave granted. Suite MG.46 The summary read as follows— Parliament House Health Insurance (Allied Health and Dental CANBERRA ACT 2600 Services) Determination 2005 Dear Minister This Determination specifies that certain allied health and dental services that can be provided to I refer to the following maritime transport secu- people with chronic conditions and complex care rity regulations made within your portfolio. needs are to be treated as if they were listed in the Maritime Transport Security Amendment Regula- general medical services table. tions 2005 (No. 1), Select Legislative Instrument The copy of the Determination received by the 2005 No. 115 Committee is marked ‘Draft Only’, although it These Regulations amend the principal regula- bears the Minister’s signature. tions by inserting new requirements concerning The list of criteria specified for Dental Health the duties of port operators concerning water-side Services in Schedule 2 to this instrument does not restricted zones and ship security zones, and other refer to certain criteria that are listed for Allied provisions related to persons who are authorised Health Services (as set out in Schedule 1). Spe- to carry or possess a weapon or prohibited item cifically, Schedule 2 does not refer to the service on a regulated Australian ship, or in a maritime being provided to the person individually and in security zone. The Committee raises the follow- ing matters concerning these Regulations.
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First, Item [1] substitutes a new regulation 6.70 that accompanies these Regulations makes no that specifies the duties of a port operator with reference to consultation. The Committee there- regard to water-side restricted zones. Subregula- fore seeks your advice on whether consultation tion 6.70(3) creates a strict liability offence of was undertaken and, if so, the nature of that con- monitoring access to any water-side restricted sultation. The Committee also seeks an assurance zone in a security regulated port. The purported that future explanatory statements will provide Explanatory Statement does not explain why this information on consultation as required by the is made a strict liability offence. In light of Legislative Instruments Act. subregulation 6.70(2) clarification is also needed Finally, section 26 of the Legislative Instruments as to whether the obligation imposed by subregu- Act 2003 requires an explanatory statement to be lation 6.70(3) arises even if the zone has not yet lodged for registration when a legislative instru- come into force. Lastly, subregulation 6.70(5) ment is lodged for registration. Section 4 of the requires a port operator to ensure that the security Act defines ‘explanatory statement’ to mean a measures and procedures “detect and deter unau- statement that ‘explains the purpose and operation thorised access” to water-side restricted zones. of the instrument’. The document that accompa- The consequences of failure to comply with this nies these Regulations is not described as an Ex- subregulation are not specified. planatory Statement. It contains an item-by-item Similar questions are raised by item [3] which description of the Regulations, but it does not substitutes a new regulation 6.95 that specifies the explain the purpose of the amendments. The duties of a port operator with regard to ship secu- Committee therefore seeks an explanation as to rity zones. why an explanatory statement that complies with Secondly, Item [6] inserts a new regulation 7.40, the Legislative Instruments Act 2003 has not been subregulation (3) of which permits an inspector of supplied. the RSPCA of a State or Territory to have a The Committee would appreciate your advice on weapon (or prohibited item) in his or her posses- the above matters as soon as possible, but before sion while in a maritime security zone when the 2 September 2005, to enable it to finalise its con- person is carrying out an inspection related to the sideration of these Regulations. Correspondence welfare of any animals in that zone. Similarly, should be directed to the Chairman, Senate Stand- new subregulation 7.45(3) permits such inspec- ing Committee on Regulations and Ordinances, tors to carry a weapon through a screening point, Room SG49, Parliament House, Canberra. and new subregulation 7.50(3) permits such in- Yours sincerely spectors to carry a weapon on board a regulated Australian ship. There is no explanation as to why John Watson RSPCA inspectors might need to carry a weapon Chairman in such circumstances, nor whether such officers ————— receive any training in the use of weapons. 7 September 2005 Thirdly, section 17 of the Legislative Instruments Senator John Watson Act 2003 directs a rule-maker to be satisfied that appropriate consultation, as is reasonably practi- Chairman cable, has been undertaken particularly where a Senate Standing Committee on Regulations and proposed instrument is likely to have an effect on Ordinances business. Section 18 of the Act provides that in Room SG49 some circumstances consultation may be unnec- Parliament House essary or inappropriate. The definition of ‘ex- planatory statement’ in section 4 of the Act re- CANBERRA ACT 2600 quires an explanatory statement to describe the Dear Senator Watson nature of any consultation that has been carried Thank you for your letter of 11 August 2005 re- out or, if there has been no consultation, to ex- garding Maritime Transport Security Amendment plain why none was undertaken. The document
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Regulations 2005 (No. 1) Select Legislative In- shore Facilities Security Act 2003 (the Act) (sub- strument 2005 No. 115 … section 44(1)). I appreciate the opportunity to respond to the Secondly, the Committee refers to persons author- Committee’s comments. ised to possess weapons in maritime security Maritime Transport Security Amendment Regula- zones (Regulation 7.40). tions 2005 (No. 1), Select Legislative Instrument The Committee queries why RSPCA inspectors 2005 No. 115 might need to carry a weapon in a maritime secu- The Committee has raised four matters concern- rity zone, and whether they receive training in the ing these Regulations. use of weapons. Firstly, the Committee refers to the duties of a Regulation 7.40 provides officers of organisations port operator with respect to water-side restricted associated with the welfare of animals, quarantine zones (Regulation 6.70). officers, departmental officers employed for the purpose of eradication of pests and licensed secu- The Committee notes that the Explanatory State- rity guards to be persons authorised to carry or ment does not explain why subregulation 6.70(3) possess a weapon or prohibited item in a maritime creates a strict liability offence. In framing the security zone. offence provision contained in Regulation 6.70, consideration was given to the principles con- This is to address an identified need for RSPCA tained in the Sixth Report of 2002 on the Applica- officers to carry weapons to assist in discharging tion of Absolute and Strict Liability Offences in their animal welfare duties—for example to assist Commonwealth Legislation by the Senate Stand- in destroying seriously injured animals in the port ing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills and to environment. The Committee will appreciate that matters discussed in Part 4.5 of the Guide to many thousands of animals pass through Austra- Framing of Commonwealth Offences, Civil Pen- lian ports each year. alties and Enforcement Powers. Extensive consul- The National Firearms Agreement establishes tation was undertaken in developing the offence uniform measures across Australian jurisdictions provision, including with affected stakeholders. in relation to firearms ownership, possession and The Committee further queries whether the obli- use. These measures include a requirement for gation imposed by subregulation 6.70(3) arises licence applicants to show a ‘genuine reason’ for before the zone has come into force. It does not. owning, possessing or using a firearm, and uni- The obligation in 6.70(3) relates to enforcement form accredited training as a prerequisite for li- of a zone. This is different to the obligation in censing. In NSW for example, provision is made subregulation 6.70(1) which relates to informing for an applicant to be regarded as having a ‘genu- persons that the area is, or is to become, a zone in ine reason’ for having a firearm licence if the which unauthorised access is an offence. applicant is an officer of the RSPCA who is a special constable, or a veterinary surgeon, who The Committee also refers to subregulation may need to destroy animals to avoid animal suf- 6.70(5) which requires a port operator to ensure fering. that the security measures and procedures to con- trol access to a water-side restricted zone detect Regulation 7.55 provides that a person is not and deter unauthorised access to such a zone. The authorised to carry a weapon or prohibited item, Committee notes that the consequences for failure under regulations 7.40, 7.45 and 7.50, where the to comply with this subregulation are not speci- carriage or possession is prohibited by another fied. law of the Commonwealth or a law of a State or Territory and the person does not have the re- The measures and procedures to control access to quired licence, permit or authorisation. a water-side restricted zone are set out in the port operator’s maritime security plan (see Regulation Thirdly, the Committee seeks advice on the con- 3.55). A breach of a maritime security plan is an sultation process undertaken in preparing the offence under the Maritime Transport and Off- Regulations.
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A wide range of stakeholders were consulted in (b) potential of new sources of oil and alterna- developing the Regulations, including maritime tive transport fuels to meet a significant industry representatives, unions, State and Terri- share of Australia’s fuel demands, taking tory police, and relevant government agencies. A into account technological developments copy of the draft Amendment Regulations was and environmental and economic costs; circulated to these key stakeholders for comment (c) flow-on economic and social impacts in prior to these being finalised and made. Australia from continuing rises in the It is noted that the Explanatory Statement accom- price of transport fuel and potential reduc- panying the Regulations did not provide informa- tions in oil supply; and tion on the consultation process undertaken. I (d) options for reducing Australia’s transport wish to assure the Committee that future Explana- fuel demands. tory Statements will provide this information in accordance with the requirements of the Legisla- COMMITTEES tive Instruments Act 2003. Selection of Bills Committee Finally, the Committee considers that the Ex- Report planatory Statement lodged with the Regulations Senator FERRIS (South Australia) (3.47 does not adequately explain the purpose of the pm)—I present the 11th report of 2005 of the amendments. Selection of Bills Committee. An Explanatory Statement for the Regulations had been prepared, and approved by my prede- Ordered that the report be adopted. cessor. However, for unknown reasons, the Ex- Senator FERRIS—I seek leave to have planatory Statement was not lodged on the Fed- the report incorporated in Hansard. eral Register of Legislative Instruments (FRLI) in Leave granted. its entirety—only an attachment was lodged on FRLI. This has now been rectified. I thank the The report read as follows— Committee for its helpful comments on how fu- SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE ture Explanatory Statements might be improved. REPORT NO. 11 OF 2005 Thank you for bringing the Committee’s com- (1) The committee met in private session on ments to my attention. I trust the information Tuesday, 4 October 2005 at 4.20 pm. provided is of assistance. (2) The committee resolved to recommend— Yours sincerely That— Warren Truss (a) the provisions of the Energy Efficiency Minister for Transport and Regional Services Opportunities Bill 2005 be referred im- Senator Milne to move five sitting days mediately to the Economics Legislation after today: Committee for inquiry and report by 7 November 2005 (see appendix 1 for That the following matter be referred to the statement of reasons for referral); Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Refer- ences Committee for inquiry and report by the (b) the provisions of the Health Legislation last sitting day in March 2006: Amendment Bill 2005 be referred im- mediately to the Community Affairs Australia’s future oil supply, with particular Legislation Committee for inquiry and reference to: report by 1 November 2005 (see appen- (a) projections of oil production and demand dix 2 for statement of reasons for refer- in Australia and globally and the implica- ral); tions for availability and pricing of trans- (c) the provisions of the Law and Justice port fuels in Australia; Legislation Amendment (Video Link Evidence and Other Measures) Bill 2005
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be referred immediately to the Legal and Appendix 1 Constitutional Legislation Committee Proposal to refer a bill to a committee for inquiry and report by 1 November 2005 (see appendices 3 and 4 for state- Name of bill(s): ments of reasons for referral); and Energy Efficiency Opportunities Bill 2005 (d) the provisions of the National Health Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Amendment (Budget Measures— sideration Pharmaceutical Benefits Safety Net) Bill The extent of business covered by the proposed 2005 be referred immediately to the threshold of 0.5 petajoules of energy used per Community Affairs Legislation Com- year and whether more businesses should be cov- mittee for inquiry and report by 1 No- ered. vember 2005 (see appendix 5 for state- The adequacy of the proposed energy efficiency ment of reasons for referral). assessment (3) The committee resolved to recommend— Possible submissions or evidence from: That the following bills not be referred to committees: BCSE, environment groups eg. ACF, large energy using companies and associated industry associa- • Customs Tariff Amendment (Common- tions. wealth Games) Bill 2005 Committee to which bill is referred: • Migration and Ombudsman Legislation Amendment Bill 2005 Economics Legislation Committee • National Health Amendment (Immuni- Possible hearing date: 24 to 28 October 2005 sation Program) Bill 2005 Possible reporting date(s): 7 November 2005 • Telecommunications (Interception) ————— Amendment (Stored Communications Appendix 2 and Other Measures) Bill 2005 Proposal to refer a bill to a committee • Therapeutic Goods Amendment Bill Name of bill (No. 2) 2005. Health, Legislation Amendment Bill 2005 The committee recommends accordingly. Reasons for referral/principal issues for consid- (4) The committee deferred consideration of the eration: following bills to the next meeting: To examine the provisions of the bill relating to Bills deferred from meeting of 4 October 2005 new powers to set conditions, limitations and • Higher Education Legislation Amend- restrictions on the circumstances in which Medi- ment (2005 Measures No. 4) Bill 2005 care benefits will be payable for health services; • Education Services for Overseas Stu- in particular to dents Amendment Bill 2005 (a) consider the evidence that these powers • Tax Laws Amendment (Loss Recoup- are necessary; ment Rules and Other Measures) Bill (b) identify if the bill provides sufficient 2005. mechanisms to ensure that decisions to (Jeannie Ferris) impose conditions, limitations and re- strictions are made in line with scientific Chair evidence; 5 October 2005 (c) determine the need for appropriate struc- ————— tures to guarantee consumer and expert consultation in the decision making process; and
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(d) examine the need for appeals mecha- ————— nisms to prevent arbitrary application of Appendix 4 the power. Proposal to refer a bill to a committee Possible submissions or evidence from: Name of bill(s): Australian Medical Association Law and Justice Legislation Amendment (Video Doctors Reform Society Link Evidence and Other Measures) Bill 2005 Public Health Association of Australia Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Women’s Health Network sideration Reproductive Choice Australia To examine the provisions of the bill relating to Australian Private Hospitals Association the inter-jurisdictional matching of DNA profiles over the National Criminal Investigation DNA Australian Healthcare Association Database. Women’s Health Victoria Possible submissions or evidence from: National Association of Practising Psychiatrists The Law Council of Australia Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Australian Federal Police Psychiatrists New South Wales Council for Civil Liberties The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists Australian Committee to which bill is referred: Divisions of General Practice Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee Health Consumers’ Council Possible hearing date: Australian Consumers Association Possible reporting date(s): 10 November 2005 State and Territory Governments ————— Committee to which bill is to be referred: Appendix 5 Community Affairs Legislation Committee Proposal to refer a bill to a committee Possible hearing date(s): Name of bill: Possible reporting date: 30 November 2005 National Health Amendment (Budget Measures— ————— Pharmaceutical Benefits Safety Net) Bill 2005 Appendix 3 Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Proposal to refer a bill to a committee sideration: Name of bill(s): To examine the provisions of the bill relating to increases in the Pharmaceutical Benefits Safety Law and Justice Legislation Amendment (Video Net thresholds and new safety net and patient co- Link Evidence and Other Measures) Bill 2005 payment arrangements for some pharmaceutical Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- benefits where the pharmaceutical benefit is sup- sideration plied within 20 days of a previous supply to de- Differential treatment of prosecution and defence termine the implications for access and equity in in test for admissibility of video link evidence. relation to medicines for all Australians. Possible submissions or evidence from: Possible submissions or evidence from: Law Council of Australia, ALRC etc Medicines Australia Committee to which bill is referred: Australian Consumers Association Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee National Rural Health Alliance Possible hearing date: Veterans Possible reporting date(s): 28 November 2005 Doctors Reform Society
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Australian Divisions of General Practice General business notice of motion no. 259 Health Issues Centre standing in the name of Senator Siewert for today, relating to deep sea bottom trawling, Catholic Health Australia postponed till 10 October 2005. Anglicare COMMITTEES Australian Council of Social Services Community Affairs References Committee Australian Medical Association Reference Public Health Association of Australia Senator SCULLION (Northern Territory) Committee to which bill is to be referred: (3.49 pm)—I move: Community Affairs Legislation Committee (1) That the Senate: Possible hearing date(s): (a) notes that despite the efforts of com- Possible reporting date: 25 November 2005 munities and governments, the problem LEAVE OF ABSENCE of petrol sniffing remains widespread Senator FERRIS (South Australia) (3.47 and endemic in remote Aboriginal communities; pm)—by leave—I move: (b) recognises the efforts of local commu- That leave of absence be granted to Senator nities and work underway between the Payne for the period 4 October to 6 October 2005 Federal, Northern Territory, Western for family reasons, and that leave of absence be Australia and South Australian Gov- granted to Senator Kemp for the period 4 October ernments to work in collaboration to to 6 October 2005 on account of government implement a comprehensive strategy to business overseas. tackle petrol sniffing; Question agreed to. (c) notes that an additional $6 million over NOTICES 2 years has recently been announced by Postponement the Government to expand the roll out of Opal petrol in the central desert re- The following items of business were gion and that total expenditure for Opal postponed: subsidies is $19.6 million over 4 years; Business of the Senate notice of motion no. (d) notes that the Government is consider- 1 standing in the name of Senator Bartlett ing a limited supply of Opal petrol in for today, proposing the disallowance of Alice Springs for residents of affected the Australian Meat and Live-stock Indus- Indigenous communities and for people try (Export of Live-stock to Saudi Arabia) visiting those communities; Order 2005, postponed till 6 October 2005. (e) calls on the Government, should it pro- Business of the Senate notice of motion no. ceed with the limited supply of Opal 2 standing in the name of Senator Wong petrol in Alice Springs, to work with for today, proposing the reference of a mat- petrol retailers and communities to de- ter to the Employment, Workplace Rela- velop a code of practice and an educa- tions and Education References Commit- tion strategy in relation to responsible tee, postponed till 10 October 2005. trading; and General business notice of motion no. 238 (f) notes that supply of non-sniffable Opal standing in the name of the Leader of the petrol can only be one part of the solu- Australian Democrats (Senator Allison) for tion to petrol sniffing. today, relating to ethanol in petrol, post- (2) That the following matters be referred to poned till 6 October 2005. the Community Affairs References Com-
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mittee for inquiry and report by 9 Novem- Milne, C. Moore, C. ber 2005: Murray, A.J.M. Nettle, K. (a) the effectiveness of existing laws and Polley, H. Sherry, N.J. policing with respect to petrol sniffing Siewert, R. Stephens, U. in affected Indigenous communities; Sterle, G. Webber, R. Wong, P. Wortley, D. (b) the effectiveness of diversionary initia- NOES tives and community level activities; and Abetz, E. Adams, J. (c) lessons that can be learned from the Barnett, G. Boswell, R.L.D. success some communities have had in Brandis, G.H. Calvert, P.H. Colbeck, R. Coonan, H.L. reducing petrol sniffing including the Eggleston, A. Ellison, C.M. impact of non-sniffable Opal petrol. Ferguson, A.B. Ferris, J.M. * Senator BOB BROWN (Tasmania) (3.49 Fielding, S. Fierravanti-Wells, C. pm)—by leave—I move that the motion be Fifield, M.P. Heffernan, W. amended by adding a fourth inquiry, which Hill, R.M. Humphries, G. is: Johnston, D. Joyce, B. Lightfoot, P.R. Macdonald, I. (d) the means, including costs, of imple- Macdonald, J.A.L. McGauran, J.J.J. menting a comprehensive roll-out of Nash, F. Parry, S. Opal fuel throughout the Central Desert Patterson, K.C. Ronaldson, M. region of Australia, defined for these Santoro, S. Scullion, N.G. purposes as extending from Coober Troeth, J.M. Trood, R. Pedy in South Australia to Tennant Watson, J.O.W. Creek in the Northern Territory and PAIRS Laverton in Western Australia, and spe- cifically to the town centres of Alice Conroy, S.M. Kemp, C.R. Springs and Tennant Creek. Faulkner, J.P. Vanstone, A.E. Hurley, A. Minchin, N.H. Question put: O’Brien, K.W.K. Campbell, I.G. That the amendment (Senator Bob Brown’s) Ray, R.F. Payne, M.A. be agreed to. * denotes teller The Senate divided. [3.54 pm] Question negatived. (The President—Senator the Hon. Paul Original question agreed to. Calvert) TASMANIA: PROPOSED PULP MILL Ayes………… 30 Senator MILNE (Tasmania) (3.58 pm)— Noes………… 33 I move: Majority……… 3 That the Senate— (a) notes that Gunns Pty Ltd’s proposed pulp AYES mill in the Tamar Valley in Tasmania, by Allison, L.F. Bartlett, A.J.J. the admission of the proponent, will: Bishop, T.M. Brown, B.J. (i) consume up to 4 million tonnes of Brown, C.L. Campbell, G. * woodchips per annum requiring at least Carr, K.J. Crossin, P.M. 30 years access to native forests, Evans, C.V. Forshaw, M.G. Hogg, J.J. Hutchins, S.P. (ii) pollute the air shed of the Tamar Valley Kirk, L. Ludwig, J.W. with hydrogen sulphide emissions and Lundy, K.A. Marshall, G. other gaseous emissions generated by McEwen, A. McLucas, J.E.
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burning 500 000 tonnes of green wood Hurley, A. Hutchins, S.P. waste each year, Johnston, D. Joyce, B. (iii) potentially affect the habitat of 33 Kirk, L. Lightfoot, P.R. threatened species, including five na- Ludwig, J.W. Lundy, K.A. tionally-listed endangered and five na- Marshall, G. Mason, B.J. tionally-listed vulnerable species, and McEwen, A. McGauran, J.J.J. McLucas, J.E. Moore, C. (iv) pump approximately 30 billion litres of Nash, F. O’Brien, K.W.K. effluent containing organo-chlorines Parry, S. Patterson, K.C. into Bass Strait each year, thus impact- Polley, H. Ronaldson, M. ing on Commonwealth waters; Santoro, S. Scullion, N.G. (b) calls on the Prime Minister (Mr Howard) Sherry, N.J. Stephens, U. to withdraw the offer of $5 million in Sterle, G. Troeth, J.M. Commonwealth funding to Gunns Pty Trood, R. Vanstone, A.E. Ltd; and Watson, J.O.W. Webber, R. Wong, P. Wortley, D. (c) calls on the Minister for the Environment * denotes teller and Heritage (Senator Ian Campbell) to use his powers under the Environment Question negatived. Protection and Biodiversity Conservation In division— Act 1999 to reject the new proposal. The CHAIRMAN—Before we continue, Question put: I just advise the Senate that some senators on That the motion (Senator Milne’s) be agreed the occasion of the last division expressed to. some concern about the time that seemingly The committee divided. [4.03 pm] remained on the clock at the end of the divi- (The Chairman—Senator JJ Hogg) sion. That is being checked into. As the out- come of the division was not affected, no Ayes………… 7 further action is being taken at this stage ex- Noes………… 56 cept that the system will be checked to en- Majority……… 49 sure the integrity of the clocks. AYES NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS Allison, L.F. Bartlett, A.J.J. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- Brown, B.J. Milne, C. tralia) (4.08 pm)—I move: Nettle, K. Siewert, R. * That the Senate congratulates Australian scien- Stott Despoja, N. tists, Professor Barry J Marshall and Dr J Robin NOES Warren on being awarded the 2005 Nobel Prize in Abetz, E. Adams, J. Physiology or Medicine for their 1982 discovery Barnett, G. Bishop, T.M. of the bacterium Helicobacter pylori and its role Boswell, R.L.D. Brandis, G.H. in gastritis and peptic ulcer disease. Brown, C.L. Campbell, G. * I suggest that the motion be passed by ac- Carr, K.J. Chapman, H.G.P. clamation, if that is not too cheeky. Colbeck, R. Coonan, H.L. Crossin, P.M. Eggleston, A. Question agreed to, senators applauding. Ellison, C.M. Evans, C.V. Ferguson, A.B. Ferris, J.M. Fielding, S. Fierravanti-Wells, C. Fifield, M.P. Forshaw, M.G. Hogg, J.J. Humphries, G.
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COMMITTEES (a) affirms: Employment, Workplace Relations and (i) its support for the Convention on the Education Legislation Committee Elimination of All Forms of Discrimi- nation against Women and, in particu- Extension of Time lar, Article 12 that refers to the need to Senator FERRIS (South Australia) (4.09 ensure ‘access to health care services, pm)—At the request of Senator Troeth, I including those related to family plan- move: ning’, That the time for the presentation of the report (ii) the principle that health decisions of the Employment, Workplace Relations and should be made by those most closely Education Legislation Committee on the provi- involved with them, and sions of the Student Assistance Legislation (iii) its respect for the right of women to Amendment Bill 2005 be extended to 13 October make decisions regarding their fertility, 2005. including unplanned pregnancies, Question agreed to. based on their life situations, personal values and beliefs; Economics References Committee (b) notes that in the Australian Survey of So- Extension of Time cial Attitudes (2003), 81.2 per cent of Aus- Senator STEPHENS (New South Wales) tralians agreed that women should have (4.09 pm)—I move: the right to choose an abortion, 9 per cent That the time for the presentation of the report disagreed and 10 per cent were undecided; of the Economics References Committee on pos- (c) encourages: sible links between household debt, demand for (i) the provision of unbiased, relevant and imported goods and Australia’s current account accurate information for women ex- deficit be extended to 13 October 2005. periencing unwanted pregnancy, with- Question agreed to. out coercion, Environment, Communications, (ii) accurate advice and support for women Information Technology and the Arts to act on their own values in making References Committee reproductive decisions, whether they be adoption, motherhood or termination of Extension of Time pregnancy, including non-directive, all- Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (4.10 options counselling, pm)—I move: (iii) improvements in the evaluation of, and That the time for the presentation of the report access to, advice and support on con- of the Environment, Communications, Informa- traceptive choices, tion Technology and the Arts References Com- (iv) measures to ensure a wide variety of mittee on the economic impact of salinity in the contraceptive measures are accessible Australian environment be extended to the second and affordable, and that the privacy of sitting day of 2006. women and men accessing such meas- Question agreed to. ures is protected, DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMEN (v) the more ready availability of emer- AND REPRODUCTIVE CHOICES gency contraception from a variety of settings, and Senator ALLISON (Victoria—Leader of (vi) lifelong sexuality and health education; the Australian Democrats) (4.10 pm)—I move: (d) calls on the Government to work with state and territory governments to de- That the Senate— velop:
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(i) a thorough and inclusive national public importance be submitted to the Senate framework of evidence-based and age- for discussion, namely: appropriate sex education in all The failure of the Howard Government to de- schools, and ter or apprehend the many illegal fishers in Aus- (ii) national standards for pregnancy coun- tralia’s northern waters selling services; and I call upon those senators who approve of the (e) supports the privacy of medical records proposed discussion to rise in their places. for reproductive health, including abortion and access to Medicare rebates for termi- More than the number of senators re- nation services. quired by the standing orders having risen in The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Is there their places— any objection to this motion being taken as The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I under- formal? stand that informal arrangements have been Senator Ellison—Yes. made to allocate specific times to each of the speakers in today’s debate. With the concur- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—There is rence of the Senate, I shall ask the clerks to an objection. set the clock accordingly. Senator Bob Brown—I want it noted that Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (4.12 the objection to the motion being taken as pm)—This is a matter of great public impor- formal did not come from the Australian tance. It is important that we note the failure Greens. of the Howard government to deter or appre- COMMONWEALTH hend many illegal fishers in Australia’s SUPERANNUANTS northern waters. This is a government that Senator ALLISON (Victoria—Leader of likes to talk about protecting Australians and the Australian Democrats) (4.11 pm)—I Australia’s borders. I suppose we all know move: that the reason it does this is that it gets the That the Senate— government onto the news. And because get- (a) notes that the current Consumer Price ting border protection rhetoric on the news is Index method used for indexing Australian so important, we have situations where the Government civilian superannuation pen- Howard government illegally locks up and sions over the past decade falls well short deports Australian citizens and small chil- of the increases enjoyed by members of dren are snatched from their schools. Yet Parliament, aged pensioners, average whilst this charade goes on the Howard gov- weekly ordinary time earnings and male ernment is failing to stop illegal fishers from total average weekly earnings; and pillaging Australia’s fragile fishing grounds. (b) calls on the Government to establish a The Howard government is failing to stop more appropriate and fair method of in- illegal fishers from setting up camp on dexation for Commonwealth superan- mainland Australia’s shores. In some cases nuants. these fishers bring potentially disease carry- Question negatived. ing animals ashore. The potential ramifica- MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE tions of these quarantine breaches are real Illegal Fishing and dire, not only for the Australian agricul- tural industry but also for the health of the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—The Australian people. President has received a letter from Senator O’Brien proposing that a definite matter of
CHAMBER 100 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
I looked at the Liberal Party web site to- The 8,000-plus incursions by illegal fish- day, in particular at a document called Our ing boats over the past financial year show plans for Australia, which appears to be the that, in reality, the Howard government is as Liberal’s manifesto for the 2004 election. committed to border security and quarantine The inside cover of the document features a as it was to the Medicare safety net. The picture of the Prime Minister standing before commitment extends only as far as the pre- a banner emblazoned with the words ‘Aus- election rhetoric. This government’s broken tralian Customs’. Further into the document, Medicare promise was highly visible and on page 14, the manifesto states: will cost working families hundreds of dol- Under John Howard’s leadership Australia is no lars each year. It has caused, and will con- longer a soft touch. tinue to cause, great hardship among Austra- A little further down the page it says: lian people. The Howard government’s equal lack of commitment to border security and The coalition government is fully committed to maintaining Australia’s strict quarantine regime to quarantine is less visible, but it is a lack of protect our unique pest and disease free status. commitment that I fear will cause this nation to pay a terrible price. The fact is that Austra- Although at the last election the Howard lia’s northern fisheries are crawling with il- government promised to be tough on border legal fishing vessels. protection, the statistics in this area tell a very different and startling story. After nine In another recent article, this time in the long years of the Howard government, Aus- Sydney Morning Herald, a journalist aboard tralia is a soft touch and the integrity of our HMAS Bunbury, on its way to patrol for il- quarantine system is under attack. I recently legal vessels out of Darwin, wrote: read in the Australian that, over the past two It is high season for the errant craft, and within years, sightings by Coastwatch of illegal for- minutes of leaving port at the Larrakeyah naval eign fishing vessels have jumped by a stag- base, the patrol boat ... spots its first target. gering 50 per cent. According to the report, Within minutes. One can only hope Bunbury some 8,108 sightings were recorded in the had actually left Darwin harbour. Of course, past financial year. That equates to around fisheries minister, Senator Macdonald, will 156 vessels sighted each and every week or claim that increased sightings are a good 22 illegal foreign vessels each and every day thing and that more sightings reflect in- of the year—and they are only the vessels creased activity by Australian authorities. that are sighted. This means that each week But that is just spin, just as the Howard gov- there are at least 156 opportunities for illegal ernment used spin in the case of the recent fishers to pillage our fisheries. This means northern waters apprehension by the Oceanic that each day there are 22 opportunities for Viking. The Oceanic Viking is supposed to be illegal fishers to potentially deliver, mali- Australia’s cop on the beat in our southern ciously or accidentally, serious diseases to waters, including Heard and Macquarie is- our coastline. This is what the Howard gov- lands, yet it is also expected to spend time ernment promised at the 2004 election as patrolling our northern waters. It is the only being tough on border security. Of course, customs vessel with the capability of patrol- that manifesto is worthless—as useless as ling the treacherous waters to our far south. Minister Abbott’s now infamous, rock solid, The fact that the government used the Oce- ironclad guarantee on the Medicare safety anic Viking to round up illegal fishers in the net also contained in the manifesto’s pages. tropical north is more an admission of policy failure than of success. It simply demon-
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 101 strates that this vessel and its very capable The second reason for the Howard gov- crew are stretched too thin. If ever there was ernment’s failure on fisheries is a simple lack a demonstrated need for an Australian coast- of commitment. The fact is that on border guard, this event is it. security the Howard government talks the Another major concern about the number talk but does not walk the walk. For the of illegal fishing vessels in the north is the Howard government, border security is noth- threat they potentially pose to significant ing more than a media issue used to dog assets, such as those on the North West whistle up the vote from the darkest reaches Shelf. Minister Ford of Western Australia hit of the electorate, and that is why the Howard the nail on the head when he told the Austra- government has allowed our northern fisher- lian: ies to become a superhighway for illegal fishing vessels. They could be drug smuggling, weapons smug- gling or explosive smuggling. We don’t really The third reason for the Howard govern- know what they are doing. ment’s failure to secure our fisheries, and The question is: why is the Howard govern- therefore our borders, comes down to per- ment so weak on the protection of our fisher- sonnel. I am not referring to those who are ies and therefore our borders? doing their best on vessels such as the Bun- bury or the Oceanic Viking, who Labor con- I think there are three main reasons for gratulates on their efforts. I refer to those this—a lack of good policy, a lack of com- who occupy the benches opposite and who mitment and a lack of good ministers. The sit around the cabinet table of the Howard sheer number of illegal fishing incursions government, because the mismanagement of poses a real threat to our national security, Australia’s fisheries has the fingerprints of from weapons and disease, and the facts the once-great National Party all over it. show that the Howard government has no effective policy response. That is why Labor I know that Senator Macdonald is a Lib- advocates an Australian coastguard to meet eral minister, but unfortunately he has to go the security environment as it has evolved. through Mr McGauran to get to the cabinet That is why, under a Labor government, table. Mr McGauran is his senior minister. maritime security will not be split between So Senator Macdonald has to go through the eight government departments administering National Party. It must be galling to have to 11 separate pieces of legislation. Under La- go through a National Party minister. I know bor you will not have the crazy situation it is galling for many of the Liberals that the where customs and fisheries vessels have the National Party are guaranteed the portfolio power to fire upon fleeing suspected illegal of agriculture, as part of the coalition agree- vessels in Australian waters but do not have ment. It is not that it must be galling; I know the resources to do it. Importantly, Australia that it is galling. Many of those senators who needs one department to properly coordinate sit opposite in this place who are members of our overall security effort. the Liberal Party and represent the Liberal Senator Johnston interjecting— Party in this place privately express their dismay at the incapacity of National Party Senator O’BRIEN—They have the re- ministers who sit around the cabinet table. sources on one vessel. That is why Labor The fact that Mr McGauran is the latest Na- proposes a department of homeland security tional Party appointee to the portfolio proves to effectively deal with threats. the case that I make. I am certain that there will be a valiant attempt at defence by those
CHAMBER 102 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 opposite who seek to address this debate, but day in question time that it appears that these it will not be a credible one and they know it. illegal fishermen have, on a number of occa- It is to the detriment of the agricultural in- sions, landed on the Australian coast. That is dustries of our nation as a whole—and, I an admission that all of the protections that suppose, Senator Ian Macdonald’s career in the government says it has put in place to particular—that the coalition agreement en- prevent vessels illegally reaching our coast sures that the vital role of the agriculture have failed. The admission is made. This is a minister is always held by a member of the predation on an industry important to West- sadly declining and once great National ern Australia and to the Northern Territory. Party. It is certainly the case that Black Jack Frankly, it is an issue of grave importance to McEwen would be spinning in his grave to Australia, and that is the reason that I know that the National Party had allowed brought this matter here today. itself and the protection of Australia’s fisher- Senator SCULLION (Northern Territory) ies and borders to get into such a parlous (4.25 pm)—I note with interest that this is state, but that is the reality that he would the second time this discussion has occurred face. today. Those opposite chose to speak to this In relation to the dismaying situation of issue in taking note of answers. They said it the dramatic increase in foreign vessels is such an important issue that they thought penetrating our waters and endangering some we needed to have two debates about it on of the fisheries that they are preying upon, it the same day. I am delighted that they took is very notable that the fishing industries, that opportunity, and I said earlier that I am particularly those based in the state of West- delighted to be part of a government that ern Australia, have expressed great concern enjoys the leadership that we have in this about the depletion of fishing stocks caused area—and I note the Hon. Senator Ian Mac- by these practices. It is no secret that the il- donald is in the chamber. Under his leader- legal fishers have changed their modus oper- ship, we have made a great change to one of andi. They use smaller, more manoeuvrable the most sophisticated and complicated at- vessels which are more easily replaced. It is tacks on our borders. no secret that they are more organised, and— This issue is not only about fisheries; it is as was conceded by Minister Ellison today— an issue about quarantine, the environment, their activities seem to be organised by human health and almost every other aspect criminal gangs, in one area in particular, to of our community. Many recreational fish- prey upon the shark populations in our wa- ermen are concerned, commercial fishermen ters because of the value of shark fin in are concerned, and people who are con- South-East Asia. That has encouraged a great cerned about the environment have also many fishermen to enter our waters. If we voiced their opinions on this matter. were to reduce the number of visitors by a As I said earlier, the particular driver of factor of three, as was suggested by Senator this issue is that the people who come to Ian Macdonald in his answer to a question Australian waters come from an area where today, we would still have an unacceptable they earn $480 a year. That is not much. But level of illegal entry into Australian waters. if you consider that they can get $600 per One has to question the government’s pol- kilo for the product, it is of little surprise to icy of excising islands from Australia’s mi- any of us that there will be continued pres- gration zone, given that it was conceded to- sure. We know that the sort of policy that is
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 103 going to be successful in this area has to be time. It has sent a comprehensive but clear as sophisticated as the challenge that we are signal: ‘If you come here to fish and think now facing. The strength of policy and lead- you can get away with it, you are wrong. Tell ership of this government send a clear and your mates.’ concise signal, and that is very important in There were 247 people prosecuted in this issue. As with people-smuggling, it is the 2003-04, with quite substantial fines, includ- sort of signal that will change the behaviour ing $1,500 bonds. On $480 a year, that is a of people. We have been sending a very clear pretty substantial sort of fine and a pretty and concise signal, and it is a simple one: ‘If substantial disincentive. In 2004-05, that you come to Australian waters to poach and figure was reduced to some 200 people. you make a risk assessment on that, gener- From the other side we have heard discus- ally, you will be seen, you will be caught, sions about some 22 sightings a day. That is you will be prosecuted and you will lose probably correct; there have been up to 22 your boat.’ One hundred per cent of the peo- sightings a day. When you have Coastwatch ple who come here through that process lose doing well over 1,000 sea days a year, the their boats. That was not always the case, but Royal Australian Navy doing thousands of we have tightened it up because we need to sea days a year and Coastwatch aeroplanes continue to change and tweak that policy. It looking over these things for tens of thou- is a simple policy signal that everyone in sands of days, of course we are going to see Roti, Morotai and Pukaru is familiar with. these vessels on a number of occasions. In We have statistics from the other side the briefing that I was given—and it has about 22 boats per day. Let me give some been indicated to me that the same briefing very sincere statistics. In the last four years, was given to those on the other side—it was 555 vessels have been destroyed. That de- very clearly explained that 22 sightings on struction is part of a policy that goes to the any day by Coastwatch were likely to be very heart of the Indonesians’ capacity to multiple sightings; in other words, there break the rules. Without a boat, you are not might have been six or seven boats. But six going to be able to come here and take our or seven boats are too many for us. In a pre- fish stock. In four years, 555 vessels have vious iteration in the Northern Territory, I been destroyed, and it goes on, because that noted that from time to time there were is not the only part of our policy. Sometimes nights in Darwin Harbour when the Navy the vessels are very small, and sometimes brought in 18 to 20 vessels. They are capable they are only just inside the border. In terms of that sort of level of compliance. To say of effectiveness, where there are bigger boats that there are 20 sightings and somehow to that might be further inside, in multiple omit to say that there were almost that many sightings, of course we make the decision to apprehensions is pretty disingenuous. do an administrative seizure. So all their ca- It should be said that one of the statistics pacity to continue to fish is taken from them. that people are not talking about is that in All their fishing gear is taken from them. We 1997 the price of white shark fin was $70. know they have to make journeys of some- Today it is $600. Between 1997 and now, times more than a month; then they have to that factor and the productivity index are not go back, sometimes refit their boats and applicable to a population rise or anything come back again, but in that time we get else. It is about demand. Demand has gone some relief. There have been more than up. In simple economics, for those people 1,200 administrative seizures during that who got through high school, it is because
CHAMBER 104 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 supply has dried up. Why has supply dried Territorian but because, practically, it is the up? Because of the tough policy that the hub of where it happens. More vessels come government have put in place to stop theft. into the Northern Territory, because of com- There is no better statistic to look at. You do pliance and the need for compliance, than not have to wiggle that around. It is a simple anywhere else. AQIS are grasping the nettle, statistic that demonstrates that. I can assure going to the Northern Territory and setting you that the price will keep going up because up for business, and that business is going to we have put an iron fist on compliance. make a great change. Again, it is simply Those on the other side can say what they about policy. A good policy sends a clear like about the sorts of things that have gone signal. The very clear signal that we are on, and you can point to something here that sending—and it is an unambiguous signal— might not be right. But this is a very sophis- is that, if you choose to come and steal our ticated government, and we understand, as fish, we will find you, we will arrest you, we we did with people trafficking—and the will put you through the process and we will world looks to us now for answers in that burn your boats. So do not take the risk. area—that you also need to have a sophisti- (Time expired) cated and multifaceted approach to dealing Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (4.33 with illegal fishing. pm)—This matter of public importance to- In addition to the strong surveillance and day is on what has been suggested as a fail- enforcement presence in Northern Australia, ure of the Howard government to deter or we are continuing our efforts to engage our apprehend the many illegal fishers in Austra- Indonesian neighbours on the issue of illegal lia’s northern waters. From the Democrats fishing, as we do on so many fronts. We al- point of view, I take the opportunity to re- ways take a regional approach because it is spond to this by making a few points. the most sensible approach that is going to Clearly, there are still significant amounts of get the best outcome. The two countries held illegal fishing occurring not just in Austra- formal discussions on these issues from 24 to lia’s northern waters but particularly in that 26 August in Jakarta. It was that recently. region, and more needs to be done to address These two countries are working in a bilat- that. I acknowledge the personal expertise eral sense to ensure that a bilateral fisheries and experience that Senator Scullion has in surveillance forum is formed. They are going this area and that he does make some valid to work cooperatively to ensure that the fish- points. I could say that as a vegetarian I do ers are educated. Indonesians understand, but not eat any fish at all, so perhaps the best they think it is fair that we tell the Indonesian way to prevent illegal fishing is to encourage fishers that, if you are going to do a risk as- everyone to go vegetarian, and they would sessment, you have to understand the sorts of all stop fishing completely. But I hasten to things that you are going to get through, and add that I do not think that is a terribly prac- you are not going to get through. Again, it is tical policy option, so we will deal in the real a simple message of policy that has to con- world, which is that there is a demand for a tinue to get out there. lot of this product. A lot of people in very One of the changes that we have had in poor economic circumstances naturally will terms of Western Australia—I heard a bit of be tempted to take the opportunity or to take bleating on this from the other side—is that the risk. they are all going to Darwin. Hurray, I This government has done some things, reckon! That is not because I am a parochial and I acknowledge that. But I would also say
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 105 that a few aspects indicate that there are still lands and on the mainland, perhaps with things that could have been done that have animals et cetera of their own as well. There not been done because of the warped priori- is clearly a much larger quarantine risk. Any ties of the government. I have said a number quarantine risk that might be valid with an of times that—and I spoke on this matter in asylum seeker boat is magnified many times the adjournment debate a few weeks ago—if over with fishing vessels. But we do not see there were refugees on any of those fishing the amounts of resources that are being vessels, the government would have half the poured into bottomless pits to address the Navy out there trying to grab them. For some issue of asylum seekers. It is another exam- reason or other, this government has seen ple of the criticism that I have about the mis- people fleeing persecution and trying to get treatment of and willingness to cause im- protection in Australia as a bigger risk to our mense suffering to innocent people through so-called security than any other issue. some of the approaches—not all of the ap- We had the minister announce some extra proaches, but some of them—used to deal money in the policing of fishing recently. I with asylum seekers. cannot remember what the figure was, but I There is also an opportunity cost. An op- think it was around tens of millions of dol- portunity is lost through those resources go- lars or close to $20 million, and that is wel- ing to an area where there is not actually a come. But, if you look at the amount of re- threat when they could go into this area, sources that have been put into trying to pre- where we all know there is a threat. All sides vent refugees from getting protection in Aus- can talk about the environmental risk and tralia, it literally goes into the billions. We quarantine risk and the social and economic have still, even now, $336 million being pro- cost et cetera. More needs to be done, as al- posed to be spent to build another detention ways. But if you are putting your re- centre on Christmas Island. If that sort of sources—not just money, but navy surveil- money were redirected to where it could be lance and all sorts of other things—into an of use and practical value, we would be able area where there is not a real risk at all then to put a much bigger dent in some of the it means you have less opportunity to direct problem areas, whether that be illegal fishing them towards where they are needed. In or, frankly, all the other areas in the Austra- terms of the thrust of this matter of public lian community that could do with extra re- importance, I think there is a point to be sourcing. made. But I think there are some valid de- In the past, Senator Scullion himself, as fences that the government could make, as the only government member who actually Senator Scullion has done. (Time expired) came in here and defended the government’s Senator LUDWIG (Queensland) (4.39 continued insistence to exclude a whole pm)—I rise to speak on the matter of public range of islands from the Australian migra- importance raised by Senator O’Brien— tion zone, has suggested that we needed to namely, the failure of the Howard govern- do this as a quarantine measure, that if one of ment to deter or apprehend the many illegal these asylum seeker boats gets through there fishers in Australian northern waters. The are quarantine problems. As to the quarantine recent increase in sightings and incidents risk from fishing vessels, we have heard re- involving illegal fishing in our waters does ports—and I do not know how much validity indicate that there is a problem. There has there is in them—of people in these fishing been an increase from 2004 to 2005. That vessels actually landing on some of the is- might reflect an increase in detection, but I
CHAMBER 106 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 think it also indicates that there is a signifi- bring a range of potentially devastating dis- cant and growing problem. It is a question eases to our shores. I do not know the level that this government has to deal with. of that threat, but this government should be In this area the government has demon- doing something to identify that threat and strated extreme incompetence in protecting find out what mechanisms should be in the borders, leaving Australia unprepared. place. Illegal fishing in waters off the coast of the Senator McGauran—What is your Northern Territory and Western Australia source on that? now appears to be out of control. A paper I Senator LUDWIG—I indicated that that saw the other day showed a range of dots was a report in the paper. Illegal fishing is indicating the amount of sightings of boats having a dire effect— and contrasted 2004 with 2005. What it Senator Johnston interjecting— demonstrated was that there was an array of boats—it even took me by surprise how Senator LUDWIG—Do you say that many boats and how many detections there there is no problem? Does this government had been. It is not enough to simply detect or say that there is no problem and no illegal sight them. What this government has to do fishing going on on our northern shores? Is it is reduce that red smear across our northern not something the government should be borders and find ways to combat this prob- dealing with in a proactive and pragmatic lem. way? Is the government saying that it can look to our northern shores and say to the We have seen reports that the Howard Indonesians: ‘Look, it’s all right—we don’t government has admitted that it has been think there’s a problem. We’ll put our heads receiving anecdotal reports about illegal fish- back in the sand where they came from.’ ing crews reaching our shores—that is, mak- That is what the government is now saying, ing landfall—for years. That is certainly of it appears, from the comments of members concern. What is also worrying is that it not on the other side of the chamber. I do not only threatens our legal fishing industry and think the Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and fishing stocks but also presents a security, Conservation thinks that, quite frankly. The public health and quarantine risk. For those minister has decided to come down and par- reasons it does need to be addressed and ticipate in this debate because there is a taken seriously. This government does have problem. The minister is trying to grapple to do something about it. It is not sufficient with it, I suspect, but he needs the support of to say, ‘We’ll look around and find someone a whole-of-government approach to deal else to blame.’ This government has to step with it in a more effective way. He has been up to the plate and take responsibility. It has failing up to now to deal with it. been in power for 9½ years. It needs to ad- dress this serious problem that has been de- Illegal fishing is having a dire effect on veloping. our limited fish stocks, with shark fins in particular being a target of the fishers. The A recent report even suggested illegal In- Western Australian Minister for Fisheries, donesian fishing crews are setting up camps Mr Jon Ford, has said that about 40 illegal along the country’s coast and bringing with fishing vessels were being reported in the them dogs, cats and monkeys. That concerns state’s northern waters every week. Sharks me greatly. It also presents a very serious make up just one per cent of all living fish in quarantine implication. It has the potential to our waters, yet they are being captured in
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 107 unbelievable numbers. In reports last week, fishing outbreaks on our northern borders. A Minister Ford of Western Australia said that report in the Daily Telegraph on Saturday the federal government had admitted to him indicated that, in fact, the Oceanic Viking that anything up to 25,000 tonnes of shark, was not stationed in the area recently but was or about one million sharks, had been taken instead on its way to Singapore via Darwin off the top of Australia. for a refit. Senator Ian Macdonald—I beg your It is not good enough that our northern pardon? Australian border must rely on a mainte- Senator LUDWIG—It will be on the re- nance run for its border security. It is clear cord. Worst of all, in most instances the ma- that more needs to be done. The government jority of the shark is simply thrown away. could take a look at Labor’s policy of a well They are only after the fins. Based on the resourced national coastguard working in Australian Institute of Criminology trends conjunction with Coastwatch resources, our and issues report and on a quoted price of law enforcement agencies, our defence re- $US744 per kilo, on today’s exchange rate sources, the Department of the Environment shark fins can gain up to $A979 per kilo as a and Heritage and the Department of Agricul- market price, making this a significant mil- ture, Fisheries and Forestry. It does present a lion-dollar crime that can occur in our north- significant problem and a whole-of- ern waters. This government’s mismanage- government approach is required. ment of our borders is leaving our northern How can the government talk about an ef- coastline badly exposed. fective national security regime when they According to an ABC report on 23 Sep- are leaving our coast and our sea territories tember, during one week last month, while exposed in the way they are? The only way three boats and 15 fishers were seized, 25 to deal effectively with the rapidly escalating boats were reported as having been able to problem is to work closely with Indonesian escape. The Australian Customs Service is authorities and put in place a properly re- tasked with the role of detecting, apprehend- sourced national coastguard. The superior ing and/or deterring illegal fishers. It is doing policy on this issue is now clearly the one a good job, might I say, with the limited re- that Labor took to the last election. Only a sources available. But, with 25 boats able to plan with a coastguard is capable of taking escape—and those were just the ones that the fight up to the criminal illegal fishing were detected—it would seem that Customs syndicates. At the moment, under this gov- is not coping well enough. Instead, Australia ernment, it appears we have all but vacated has been left unprepared by a justice minister the field. Under a federal Labor government who is opposed to a coastguard and a fisher- with the policy that we took to the last elec- ies minister who is allowing our environment tion, we would have strengthened the de- and our national wealth to be plundered. fence of Australia with a $300 million mari- time security strategy. The plan we had in- The vessel Oceanic Viking that recently cluded: the establishment of an Australian apprehended and fired upon Indonesian fish- coastguard, the creation of an armed sea ing boats is not a Customs owned vessel; it is marshals program, the deployment of more a chartered boat that has been moved from Australian Federal Police into the region and its position of patrolling the Southern Ocean the installation of a new vessel-tracking sys- and our Heard Island and McDonald Island tem in Darwin Harbour. territories to deal with the plague of illegal
CHAMBER 108 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
The policy setting was right. An Austra- our fishermen, by their own admission, to lian coastguard would have included: three these illegals for the cost of $1.2 million. armed 55-metre class deep ocean vessels That is their political spin, their disingenuous with helicopter landing platforms and rapid ‘let’s see if we can score a vote at any price’ intervention boats, five armed 35-metre class attitude to this very important issue. Minister patrol vessels with rapid intervention boats Ford has had two appointments with our and three new twin-engine helicopters. The Minister Macdonald. Do you think he has Australian coastguard would have combined kept those appointments? It is such an impor- existing civilian coastal surveillance agen- tant issue, such a vital issue for Western Aus- cies into a unified chain of command. That is tralian Labor, that the minister for fisheries the kind of action that you would need to from WA makes an appointment, not once deal with this concern in our northern waters. but twice, but does not front. That is just dis- Australia has 37,000 kilometres of coastline graceful. and thus far only Labor’s plan for a coast- We have committed $217.2 million for the guard is capable of meeting the tests imposed Oceanic Viking to patrol waters in Australia on our borders by illegal fishing, gunrunners, for two years. The coastguard document, the drug traffickers, people smugglers and terror- illustrious document that the Labor Party ists. Now in 2005 with these types of lucra- produced at the last election, costs it out at tive illegal fishing opportunities that are pre- $612 million. When you compare those two sented—(Time expired) figures you have to ask yourself: what sort of Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia) mickey mouse canoe and outboard motor are (4.48 pm)—It saddens me that such an im- you getting in a coastguard put up by Labor? portant issue would be brought to this cham- What a joke. What a disgrace. This is a seri- ber with such crass insincerity and disingen- ous issue and Labor give us a coastguard that uousness. Look at what has happened in the has to patrol the whole of Australia’s mari- last four years: in 2002 we apprehended 108 time frontier with $612 million—and Labor illegal fishing vessels; in 2003, 138; in 2004, senators come in here and sit on the other 161; and to date in 2005, 147. Where have side of the chamber with a straight face! I the Labor Party been while this has been go- cannot believe it. ing on? We have been out there patrolling the Senator Macdonald, as minister in this borders and catching illegal fishermen and area, has been a tireless worker and probably suddenly because there is a newspaper article has achieved more than any other fisheries about it Senator Ludwig wants to come in minister, not just for fishing security but for here and say that he has all the answers or sustainability. The two things go hand in that Senator O’Brien has all the answers. Let hand. You cannot have security unless you me tell you how much Labor really care are prepared to sustain the fishery. Senator about border protection. Macdonald has led Australia in the reform of As I said earlier in the debate this after- that area after 13 years of wanton neglect by noon, WA are bleating that the Common- Labor. Labor did not give two hoots for fish- wealth are taking some funding off them. ing in Australia when they were in power. They are going to close their fishing patrol The latest round of problematic entries is unit because of $1.2 million. This is the clearly about price. As Senator Scullion quite wealthiest state government in Australia’s rightly pointed out, these are people on a history—per capita. They have a surplus this subsistence livelihood who suddenly see that year of $1.3 billion. They are going to throw
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 109 there is big money to be made in shark fin. of 138 in 2003. The most recent apprehen- So they take to the waters in their small and sion was on 29 September, when a motorised precarious boats. We are doing things on- Indonesian vessel was intercepted about 110 shore in Indonesia, of course. We are asking nautical miles inside the zone with approxi- the Indonesian government to get these peo- mately 20 to 25 kilograms of shark fin. We ple to see that they have to stick to their own are on the job; we are doing the job. It does fishing grounds because of the risks to them no good people coming in here half-baked and because of the penalties that we are go- saying, ‘I read a media article and I think I ing to apply to them if they fish here. can score a few cheap political points.’ We Currently, we have employed some 17 know what we are doing. We are on the job state officers, allocated on various boats. We and we are catching people on a daily basis. are replacing those with 30 Commonwealth Senator SIEWERT (Western Australia) officers. The fact is that the states have been (4.54 pm)—I thank Senator O’Brien for rais- making a good deal of money: $100 an hour ing this urgent matter for debate. The issue is what we have been paying state officers on of sustainably managing fisheries in Austra- all of our patrol boats. We are going to fix lian and regional waters and the conservation the situation. The fisheries section of our of our marine environment is of great con- government is operating patrols out of cern to me. I am concerned at the kind of Broome, Gove and Darwin. I have quoted knee-jerk response that we getting to this the numbers but, in addition to the existing issue at the moment. The response of just multimillion dollar fisheries surveillance that putting more boats and more guns on the I mentioned, and the enforcement work car- water is going to be increasingly expensive ried out by Defence with their patrol boats, to run and difficult to maintain. It is likely to Customs with their customs boats, Coast- undermine rather than strengthen our rela- watch with their aircraft, and the Australian tionships with our near neighbours, and we Fisheries Management Authority, an extra know from experience that it is likely to $91.4 million has been allocated over five prove ineffective given the scale of the prob- years from 2004-05. As I have said, we have lem we face. Whilst I agree that more sur- committed $217 million for the fisheries pa- veillance is necessary, it is not the only an- trol boat, the Oceanic Viking, over the next swer to this problem. five years. The problem of illegal, unreported and un- As recently as, I think, last week the Oce- regulated fishing inside Australian waters is anic Viking apprehended two vessels 800 huge. There are estimates that in our northern kilometres north-west of Darwin. We were waters illegal fishing takes 10 times the ton- out there on the frontier picking up boats as nage of our domestic catch, although it is recently as last week. The fact is that we are hard to get accurate figures given the nature doing great things in respect of protecting the of the problem. There is evidence of large security of our fisheries. To date in 2005, 144 industrial freezer boats sitting just outside foreign fishing vessels have been appre- Australian waters and using smaller so-called hended inside the zone. A further 227 have disposable craft to duck in and out of our been subjected to legislative forfeiture of waters. While this problem of illegal fishing fishing gear and catch. This follows the re- in Australian waters is huge, the problem cord number of 161 illegal fishing apprehen- outside our waters is even bigger. For exam- sions in northern Australian waters in 2004, ple, there are estimates that put the number which was preceded by the previous record of vessels working in the Arafura and Timor
CHAMBER 110 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 seas, outside our maritime boundary, beyond to find collaborative solutions that recognise what I can believe. I have heard estimates of that this is a joint problem. We need to work 1,500 vessels working in those waters. with our near neighbours to develop sustain- Unfortunately for Australia, fish do not able solutions. This is an extremely complex recognise the boundary of Australian waters. issue that needs a range of responses. It is in If marine ecosystems and fish stocks outside our national interest to develop collaborative our waters are being depleted and destroyed arrangements with our near neighbours. A then those within our territorial waters are multilateral approach is required, and we can also suffering and will eventually be ex- look to the kinds of regional agreements we hausted. So, even if we had the resources to have developed elsewhere to manage our circumnavigate our continent with boats so fisheries to find suitable models. Australia is that we could walk from gangplank to gang- recognised internationally for our expertise plank around it, we could not solve the prob- in fisheries policy and management, and we lem of protecting our fisheries and conserv- have previously shown international leader- ing the wealth of our marine ecosystems. We ship on fishing and marine related issues. I need to work outside our boundaries. acknowledge and am aware that Australia is a signatory to a number of international The problem of the illegal and, as has al- agreements related to fisheries and has a ready been mentioned, highly lucrative trade number of implementation plans in place in in shark fin is a huge driver for IUU fishing relation to those agreements. in our waters, and it is one that we need to urgently address. Because most shark species The Greens believe that the key to illegal have effectively been wiped out in Indone- fishing is dealing with the problem at its sian waters, there is increasing pressure on source, which is why we are advocating a Australian shark fisheries. I am at odds with model based on regional collaboration, the Senator Scullion about what is driving the development of regional agreements and the price of shark fin up; I would suggest it is the sharing of expertise and resources. Collabo- scarcity of sharks in our waters and Indone- rative approaches are a better environmental sian waters that is driving prices up. With the solution because they acknowledge the per- huge demand for shark fin, in China and Ma- meable nature of marine boundaries. They laysia in particular, we face the very real are an economic solution because they re- prospect of the extinction of many shark spe- duce the amount of resources that Australia cies within our lifetimes. That demand is alone must devote to patrolling its waters. likely to keep increasing if we do not do They provide opportunities for our something about the sheer numbers of ves- neighbours to sustain their own fisheries and sels intruding into our waters and the tech- develop revenue streams. They are also a nology being brought to bear on avoiding better political solution because they can patrols in order to quickly grab larger num- transform the current situation, where our bers of fish and, in the case of sharks, fins. indictment of foreign vessels creates political tensions, into one where joint measures bring We know that unsustainable industrial us closer together and act as a basis for fishing has already led to the collapse of nu- building stable long-term relationships. merous fisheries around the world and that, globally, fisheries are in dire peril. We need Our collaborative approaches might also action beyond boats. The Greens believe that include the provision of Australian expertise we need to look beyond unilateral responses and training in developing the science, policy and regulation needed for sustainable fisher-
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 111 ies management—perhaps backed up by the lance and enforcement. I want to table in the provision of patrol boats and on-the-job parliament this international fishing maga- training on joint patrols. Australia has an zine—I think it comes out of either the UK opportunity to show leadership, build or Norway—that shows the burning of five neighbourly relations and maintain the sus- boats in Darwin. That is a clear example of tainability of our marine environments at the world recognition of our leadership. I will same time. We need to take into account the table that for the benefit of the parliament. different players involved in illegal fishing As my colleagues have said, we have a and ensure that our response takes into ac- very substantial asset base in the north. We count their differing circumstances. have eight Customs Bay class patrol boats, I believe Australia needs to hold compre- all of which will soon be fully armed. We hensive talks with Indonesia and our north- have surveillance by a Customs Coastwatch ern neighbours about fishing. We would sug- fleet of some 15 fixed-wing aircraft and two gest co-hosting talks with our neighbours to helicopters. We have 13 Fremantle class na- develop multilateral approaches. We should val patrol boats, which, as you know, Mr consider the development of a northern fish- Acting Deputy President, are being replaced, eries regional management agreement and and we have the Oceanic Viking. That is a actively support the formation of a regional very substantial set of assets in the north to fisheries management organisation for the protect our fisheries. As my colleagues have northern region. Australia should provide said, so far this year there have been 148 expertise, training and resources to our apprehensions. Senator Johnston was northern neighbours and put in place a com- wrong—they have gone up one since those prehensive, adequate and representative ma- figures were given to him just yesterday. rine park system in our northern waters. That demonstrates how we continue to do Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- that. There have been 233 legislative forfei- sland—Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and tures as well. Conservation) (5.00 pm)—I thank those who This debate is sad because it typifies the have contributed to this debate, particularly absolute ignorance of the Labor Party. I Senators Johnston and Scullion, who have know it is hard in opposition. I know you do very clearly put the government’s position not always have access to all of the informa- and have given the lie to the ignorant claims tion that perhaps you might sometimes like. I of the Labor Party. I have to say that I am tried to help the Labor Party. I invited three appalled by the ignorance of not only the state Labor ministers to Canberra to brief speakers from the Labor Party today but also them on this on a confidential basis. Two of their spokesman and particularly the Western them, the Northern Territory minister and the Australian Minister for Fisheries, who, only Queensland minister, turned up. The Western new to the game and trying to score some Australian minister, who has been bleating political points, is getting into very deep wa- about this time and again, has made two ap- ter on a topic that he really does not under- pointments with me so far to come and be stand. briefed and get the real story. On neither oc- Australia has a 36,000-kilometre coastline casion has he bothered to turn up. that is well protected by Australian agencies. The ignorance, I regret to say, has been Our Australian fishing zone is 3.6 million repeated in the speeches of the opposition nautical miles. We lead the world in surveil- speakers here today. I will go through
CHAMBER 112 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 quickly what they said. I have only another keep changing their policy and their shadow five minutes to do that. It is going to be very ministers. I have no idea what the policy is. difficult to point out all the factual errors During the debate this afternoon we heard made by the opposition speakers in this de- about animals being on boats. Let me tell bate today. Senator O’Brien talked about the you the real facts about animals on boats. If Oceanic Viking and said it was our southern there are animals on board, upon coming into patrol vessel. I refer him to two of my media port they are immediately secured by veteri- releases, on 17 December 2003 and on narians and are dealt with by the vets. They 21 August 2004, where I clearly said that the are either put down or put away in appropri- Oceanic Viking was for work principally in ate quarantine. So do not run lies about ani- the Southern Ocean but could be used any- mals. where. So they do not even understand that. With regard to fishing off Western Austra- They asked what happens in the Southern lia, a new Labor senator said this afternoon Ocean when the Oceanic Viking is up in the that they look after only three nautical miles. north. Do they remember the last but one Sorry; you are wrong. Do not get involved in international vessel we apprehended in the debates about which you know nothing, new Southern Ocean—the Maya V? Who brought Labor senator from Western Australia, whose it in to Perth? It was not the Oceanic Viking; name is— it was the Australian Navy. So whilst the Senator Johnston—Sterle. Oceanic Viking is doing other things, we are not left unprotected; we still have the very Senator IAN MACDONALD—Sterle. substantial and very capable Australian Navy Western Australia actually looks after the looking after Australia’s interests. We also shark fishery, which is well beyond the three have international arrangements with the nautical mile limit. It is a Western Australian French whereby our officers go on their fishery. I will quote to Senator Sterle a sec- boats, they come on ours and we jointly pa- tion of the Western Australian fisheries legis- trol areas in the Southern Ocean. lation. It says: I never like to go into these things in too (1) A person must not, in WA waters— much detail because it gives the bad guys all (a) use a foreign boat for fishing; or the information that they need to avoid us, (b) use a foreign boat for processing ... but Labor keep asking me to detail where Why isn’t Mr Ford upholding his own legis- boats are going to be every minute of the lation? I am not saying he should do it en- day. The Western Australian Minister for tirely. Certainly the Commonwealth will be Fisheries, Mr Ford, talked about drug smug- there—and we are there with substantial as- gling and terrorists. He is so ignorant of the sets. But the Western Australian government real facts—again, facts that I cannot talk appear to me to put no assets whatsoever into about in a public forum like this. If he had the protection of their own fisheries from come to the briefings he might have a illegal foreign fishing. slightly better understanding of what is really I am going to run out of time; there are so happening. many Labor inaccuracies. Senator Ludwig They talked about the coastguard. Which talked about the increase in sightings. I have coastguard policy from Labor are we talking explained this time and again. The sightings about? The last I heard, they were going to are multiple sightings of the same boat, they have three boats to patrol the whole 36,000 are sightings in the MOU box and they are kilometres of the Australian coastline. They
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 113 sightings right on the border. Senator Ludwig ies Commission, which was initiated by Aus- quoted Mr Ford as saying that I told him that tralia and of which an Australian—a Mr Glen there were 25,000 tonnes of shark taken. I Hurry from my department—is proudly the have never said that. In fact, when a journal- chairman. And there is an Australian CEO of ist raised it with me I expressed absolute that organisation. We are doing all the sorts amazement and commented, ‘That is fantasy of things you rightly identified should be land stuff.’ I do not know where Mr Ford got done, Senator Siewert. Thank you for your that from but he certainly did not get it from contribution. me. I am clearly running out of time but I urge Senator Ludwig said that the Australian Mr Ford from Western Australia to get real Customs Service is all we have. Wrong and to have a look at this. If he wants to get again, Senator Ludwig. We have the Navy, serious about it, come and find out what the we have Coastwatch, we have Customs, we real situation is. I assure senators in the have the Oceanic Viking and we should have chamber and indeed all Australians that the state police boats as well to enter the fight. Howard government are determined to pro- Labor’s Coastwatch—and I have dealt with tect our borders. We are serious about border that—works closely with the Indonesians. security. We will continue to divert to the Senator Siewert, apart from my col- action whatever assets are needed to properly leagues, made the most sensible contribution protect our fisheries. It is a complex and dif- to this debate. Senator Siewert, what you say ficult situation. It is a situation that does re- should be done we are doing. We are work- quire collaboration and cooperation and very ing very closely with the Indonesian gov- serious work. We are doing that. We intend ernment. We are working in villages to try to continue to do that. We will continue to do and divert people from illegal fishing into that until such time as we win the battle other activities. We are using AusAID. We against illegal fishing. (Time expired) are working very closely in the international The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT field. You would know that Australia has, if I (Senator Barnett)—Order! Discussion of might say so, a well justified reputation as the matter of public importance has now one of the world leaders in the fight against concluded. illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing. I COMMITTEES sit on an international ministerial task force Scrutiny of Bills Committee on high seas fishing. We are making a genu- ine attempt to get around the inertia of the Report United Nations and many others and to at- Senator TROETH (Victoria) (5.11 pm)— tack the root cause of the problem, and we On behalf of the deputy chair, I present the will continue to do that. 11th report of 2005 of the Scrutiny of Bills We are great supporters of regional fisher- Committee. I also lay on the table Scrutiny of Bills Alert Digest No. 12 of 2005, dated 5 ies management organisations, particularly in October 2005. our sphere of influence. There is the Indian Ocean Tuna Commission, the Commission Ordered that the report be printed. for the Conservation of Southern Bluefin Tuna, the Commission for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources and the new Western and Central Pacific Fisher-
CHAMBER 114 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
BUDGET be referred to the Privileges Committee. Al- Consideration by Legislation Committees though the regime for the registration of Additional Information senators’ interests has been in operation since 1994, this is the first time that the committee Senator TROETH (Victoria) (5.11 pm)— has been required to consider a question of On behalf of the Chair of the Economics this nature. Legislation Committee, I present additional information received by the committee relat- As senators will recall, Senator Lightfoot ing to hearings on the 2005-06 budget esti- was the subject of some publicity earlier in mates. the year regarding a trip he took to Iraq in 2004. The issue of whether he had properly COMMITTEES notified the registrar of sponsored travel in Privileges Committee relation to this trip was the subject of a pro- Report posed reference to the committee in May this Senator FAULKNER (New South year, but the notice of motion was withdrawn Wales) (5.12 pm)—I present the 123rd report after Senator Lightfoot apologised to the of the Committee of Privileges entitled Pos- Senate. Subsequently, further questions arose sible failure by a senator to comply with the as to whether Senator Lightfoot had properly Senate’s resolution relating to registration of notified the registrar of changes to his share- interests. holdings. A second reference to this commit- Ordered that the report be printed. tee was proposed by the Leader of the Oppo- sition in the Senate, Senator Evans, and Senator FAULKNER—I move: agreed to by the Senate. This second matter That the Senate adopt the finding at paragraph is the subject of this 123rd report of the 1.25 of the report, that, in respect of failures by Privileges Committee. Senator Lightfoot to comply with the Senate’s resolution requiring the registration of interests, Although it was the first time the commit- no contempt should be found. tee had dealt with a matter of this nature, the On 16 June 2005, the Senate referred to the senators’ interests resolution provides very Committee of Privileges the question of clear direction on what the committee must whether there had been any failures by Sena- look for. There must be clear evidence of an tor Lightfoot to comply with the Senate reso- intention on the part of the senator concerned lution of 17 March 1994 relating to the regis- to commit any of the offences listed in the tration of interests, and, if so, whether any resolution. There was no dispute that Senator contempt had been committed in that regard. Lightfoot had failed to notify the registrar of particular changes in his shareholdings and The 1994 resolution provides that any had provided late notifications—and, in one senator who knowingly fails to provide the case, a misleading notification—to the regis- Registrar of Senators’ Interests with a state- trar. What could not be established was ment of their registrable interests by the due whether Senator Lightfoot had any guilty date, or to notify any changes to those inter- intention in making or not making these par- ests within 28 days or who knowingly pro- ticular disclosures. vides false or misleading information to the registrar shall be guilty of a serious contempt In accordance with its usual practices, the and shall be dealt with by the Senate accord- committee received submissions from both ingly. The question of whether any senator Senator Lightfoot and Senator Chris Evans, has committed a serious contempt must first exchanged copies with each party and, in
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 115 response, received further submissions. The government response to the report These submissions, published in an appendix contains detailed responses to each of the to the report, provided the committee with a committee’s 40 recommendations. The gov- sufficient basis to conclude that Senator ernment agrees that 30 of those recommen- Lightfoot did not knowingly fail to provide dations be accepted in whole, in part or in information, or provide false or misleading principle. The government will implement information, to the registrar. The committee alternative solutions to meet the outcomes has concluded that no contempt should be sought by the report’s recommendations found, and the motion I have moved today concerning the referral of offences to civil seeks the Senate’s endorsement of our find- authorities, the legislative basis of a ing. In order to give senators an opportunity permanent military court and the to consider the report before that motion is establishment of an ADF administrative determined, I seek leave to continue my re- review board. marks later. Today, I am announcing significant en- Leave granted; debate adjourned. hancements to the military justice system. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS We in the government support a military jus- tice system; however, we believe that it can Australian Defence Force Military Justice be improved, and these announcements to- System day will contribute to that goal. These Senator HILL (South Australia— changes will balance the necessity of the Minister for Defence) (5.17 pm)—by maintenance of effective discipline, which is leave—The Australian Defence Force does a indivisible from the function of command truly magnificent job in defending this nation and the preparedness of the ADF for opera- and its interests. This government has shown, tions, with the protection of individuals and and continues to show, its commitment to their rights. This improved military justice provide the best equipment and conditions of system will deliver impartial, rigorous and service necessary to ensure that the ADF is a fair outcomes through enhanced oversight, modern fighting force. And this government greater transparency and improved timeli- recognises that hand in hand with this com- ness. Importantly, the reforms will comple- mitment must be a determination to provide ment and further progress work already un- a military justice system that is as effective der way in Defence to improve the admini- and fair as possible. stration of the military justice system. Today, I table the government’s detailed There are several key initiatives that the response to the Senate Foreign Affairs, De- government will be implementing. These are fence and Trade References Committee in- the establishment of an Australian Military quiry into the effectiveness of Australia’s Court, a new commission of inquiry process, military justice system which reported on a triservice ADF investigation unit and a 16 June this year. more streamlined and effective complaints The Senate report was a significant and and redress of grievance system. important contribution to the ongoing debate The Australian Military Court will be a and each recommendation was carefully and permanent military court which will replace thoroughly considered by the government. I the existing system of individually convened take this opportunity to thank honourable trials by Defence Force magistrates and senators who are members of the committee courts martial. The court will be established for their contribution.
CHAMBER 116 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 under appropriate Defence legislation. ness of processing and monitoring com- Military judge advocates will be appointed plaints. by the government, have security of tenure, I am pleased to inform the Senate that De- have independent financial security and be fence has already identified many of the con- ineligible for promotion throughout their cerns raised by the Senate committee report tenure. These new features will ensure that and that implementation of many of the rec- our military judicial officers have as much ommendations was well under way before judicial independence as possible. the committee tabled its report. The level of independence and rigour of The report recommended establishing a inquiries into ADF incidents resulting in statutory independent Director of Military death will be strengthened. It is essential that Prosecutions to undertake the decision- we demonstrate that ADF inquiries into these making function in respect of military prose- incidents are independent of the chain of cutions. We have already drafted legislation command and so the government will create which achieves this and will progress this a new and mandatory level of inquiry. The through the parliament as soon as possible. Chief of the Defence Force will establish a The Director of Military Prosecutions will be mandatory commission of inquiry for all appointed by the government, with security such incidents and an independent civilian, of tenure, financial security and independ- with judicial experience, will be its presi- ence from the chain of command. The DMP dent. will be appointed at a one-star level. The government will establish a joint ADF Complementary to this appointment will investigation unit to investigate more serious be that of the Director of Defence Counsel offences with a service connection. The unit Services which will significantly improve the will be headed by a new ADF provost mar- availability and management of defence shal who will be independent of the service counsel services. This will be established as chains of command. The unit will provide a a military staff position within the Defence central point of contact for consultation with Legal Division. civilian authorities on more serious offences. The Senate committee report recognised The military police will benefit enormously the work that has been undertaken within from the improved procedures, expertise and Defence to address shortcomings in the care, standards when team members from this new control and rights of minors in the ADF Ca- unit return to their respective services and it dets. This work includes: will provide a readily identifiable career path for all service police. • implementation of a behaviour policy, providing training and materials on the The government will reform and stream- expected standards of behaviour, and in- line the complaints and redress of grievance cluding guidance and advice on the han- system pursuant to the recommendations dling of sexual misconduct; made by the joint Defence Force Ombuds- man and CDF redress of grievance system • development of a wellbeing program, review of 2004. We have already begun im- specifically targeted at the mental health plementing many of the review’s recommen- wellbeing of ADFC cadets; dations. Changes to this system will improve • introduction of an ADFC cadet and adult the accountability, impartiality and timeli- cadet staff training enhancement pro- gram;
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• a review of child protection policy and provide for an annual report on their opera- processes in line with state and territory tion, thereby fulfilling a recommendation of legislation; the Burchett report. • a review of screening processes for new The Senate report recommended that De- staff; and fence undertake a range of additional re- • production of a youth development views and increased annual reporting on guide for adult cadet staff. elements of the military justice system, in- cluding a recommendation that Defence However, the committee expressed concerns commission a review into its disciplinary and about the legal relationship defining the administrative systems. The government rights and responsibilities of Defence and agree with this in principle, but will imple- ADF Cadets. As part of the significant work ment it on a broader basis. In addition to on- initiated under the government’s Cadet En- going internal monitoring and review, we hancement Program, we are currently finalis- will commission regular independent re- ing amendments to the cadet regulations views on the health of the military justice which more adequately resolve these con- system. These reviews will be headed by a cerns. qualified eminent Australian, with the first The report also recommended that the review in two years to assess the effective- government establish a task force to immedi- ness of the reforms that I am announcing ately begin work on clearing the backlog of today. grievances currently awaiting action. As I There are three main areas where the gov- have indicated previously, we have begun ernment cannot agree with the Senate com- implementing many of the recommendations mittee’s recommendations. contained within the redress of grievance system review, the majority of which mirror The first concerns the automatic referral the concerns of the Senate committee. Our of the investigation and prosecution of all criminal offences to civilian authorities. determination to improve the complaints system is demonstrated by the fact that this The committee proposes that a military particular recommendation was assigned top justice system should be one that provides priority and immediate steps were taken to ‘impartial, rigorous and fair outcomes and reduce the number of grievance cases. The one that is transparent and accountable for all backlog is expected to be cleared by the end ADF personnel’. These principles are en- of this year, with no requirement for addi- dorsed wholeheartedly, but they also need to tional funding or a task force. be balanced by the unique requirements of The government support the need for par- the military command system and the para- liamentary oversight and accountability of mount need to maintain an effective standard the military justice system and we will in- of discipline. In operations, this requirement literally becomes a matter of life and death. clude in the Defence annual report informa- tion on the implementation and effectiveness It is not feasible to maintain an effective of reforms to the military justice system aris- defence force during peacetime, or use it ing from both this report and previous re- effectively during wartime or even in condi- views under implementation and the work- tions such as peacekeeping, without the load and effectiveness of key bodies within members of such a force being subject to a the military justice system. We will further statutory code of military discipline. We can- amend the Defence (Inquiry) Regulations to not use a civil criminal code, not least be-
CHAMBER 118 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 cause such codes lack the disciplinary provi- tional Criminal Court. Members of the ADF sions required to keep order and encourage do not yield their legal responsibilities and discipline and cohesive teamwork in armed safeguards as citizens under Australian law bodies training for, and engaging in, battle. when deploying to serve their country but Jurisdiction under the Defence Force Dis- they do render themselves accountable under cipline Act can only be exercised when pro- the additional disciplinary code, the DFDA. ceedings under the DFDA can reasonably be The ADF applies a far greater level of addi- regarded as substantially serving the purpose tional regulation than that encountered in of maintaining or enforcing service disci- other forms of employment and demands pline. As is current practice, the military will behaviour that is consistent with its role as not investigate or prosecute offences unless an armed force. Proscribing behaviour under that service connection is clearly present. the DFDA includes not only matters of a criminal nature applicable to the general The military must be in a position to en- community but also a range of service disci- force internal discipline effectively and effi- plinary matters which constitute significant ciently. The purpose of the military disci- failings in the context of a disciplined armed pline system is the maintenance of discipline. force. It does not duplicate the civilian criminal system. Criminal activity can only be inves- However, while discipline is clearly fun- tigated and prosecuted under the DFDA if damental to an effective military force, it essential for maintaining discipline—very must be tempered with a concern for indi- different to the purpose of the civilian crimi- viduals and their rights. Finding the balance nal law. between discipline and the rights of indi- viduals is the key to achieving operational It is possible that a matter that has a coun- effectiveness and success. The ADF has been terpart in the civil criminal environment, like universally praised, including by the Senate assault, will have a significant disciplinary committee, for exemplary performance in aspect to it. Take, for example, the case of a operations. The military justice system in minor assault. It has on an objective standard providing the balance between discipline and a very limited criminality but it could have a individual rights has underpinned the opera- very significant disciplinary component. tional success of the ADF over recent years. Removing such offences, and indeed all mi- An effective military justice system is a nor crime, from the military justice system means to achieve the goal of maximum op- would have a major impact upon the ability erational effectiveness and, as such, a mili- of the military to quickly identify and rem- tary justice system as a core function of edy potential breaches of unacceptable be- command cannot be administered solely by haviour. civilian authorities. The ADF requires a mili- The ability to deal with discipline and tary justice system to support commanding criminal conduct under the DFDA is particu- officers and to protect the rights of members larly necessary during operational deploy- at every level. It is vital to the successful ments outside Australia. It can provide a conduct of operations and to facilitate its stand-alone code where a civilian jurisdiction activities in peace time. Commanders and either may not apply or does not exist. It also leaders use the military justice system on a provides a means to deal with misconduct daily basis. It is integral to their ability to that might otherwise be subject to the juris- lead the people for whom they are responsi- diction of foreign countries or the Interna- ble in order to ensure their welfare and
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 119 safety. It is a core function that cannot be court to be known as the Australian Military administered solely by civilian authorities Court. Although this new court will not be in without substantial risk to operational effec- strict accordance with chapter III of the Con- tiveness. stitution, it will have many new chapter III However, while the government are of the attributes. Legal advice to the government firm belief that the military should be re- indicates that a military court outside chapter sponsible for its justice system, we will work III will be valid provided jurisdiction is only to improve the management and effective- exercised under the military system where ness of the relationship between the military proceedings can be reasonably regarded as and civilian authorities on the referral of of- substantially serving the purpose of main- fences. This will include reviewing and clari- taining or enforcing service discipline. This fying the guidelines and examining the need is the current situation. The new court will for, and implementing as necessary, formal satisfy the principles of impartiality and ju- arrangements with the states and territories dicial independence through the statutory for referral of offences. Defence also intends appointment of military judge advocates with to establish a common database for tracking a security of tenure—five-year fixed terms referrals. with a possible renewal of five years—and remuneration set by the Commonwealth Re- The second recommendation the govern- muneration Tribunal. During the period of ment cannot support is the creation of a per- their appointment the judge advocates will manent military court in accordance with not be eligible for promotion, to further chapter III of the Commonwealth Constitu- strengthen their independence from the chain tion, that is, the exercise of the judicial of command. The Australian Military Court power of the Commonwealth. There are sig- will consist of a chief judge advocate and nificant policy and legal issues raised by the two permanent judge advocates with a part- proposal to have a military court as a chapter time reserve panel. The panel of judge advo- III court. Chapter III of the Constitution im- cates will be selected from any of the avail- poses real constraints in this regard. For ex- able qualified full- or part-time legal officers. ample, a chapter III court would require se- The court will be provided with appropriate curity of tenure until retirement and the right paralegal support sufficient for it to function to trial by a jury for indictable offences. Im- independently from the chain of command. portantly, the jury pool could not be limited In meeting all of the requirements of military to Defence Force officers. The government justice, the court will include options for does not support these features for a military judge advocates to sit alone or, in more seri- court. Also, a chapter III court would require ous cases, with a military jury. its military judicial officers to be immune from the provisions of the DFDA subjecting The ADF will continue to require a sum- them to military discipline. Whilst this is mary authority scheme to operate for of- appropriate regarding the performance of fences other than those that would be dealt their judicial duties, the government does not with by the Australian Military Court. The support making them exempt from military government will go beyond the Senate com- discipline in the performance of their non- mittee report recommendations and develop judicial duties such as training. summary procedures with simplified rules of evidence and the right of appeal on convic- As I have already announced, the gov- tion and sentence to a judge advocate of the ernment will create a permanent military Australian Military Court. This will respond
CHAMBER 120 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 to the concerns of the Senate committee that The Complaint Resolution Agency is an ex- the current summary procedures are legalis- isting body which is established within De- tic and overly complex. The government fence but outside the ADF chain of com- agrees with the concept of an automatic right mand. of appeal, on conviction or punishment, from In its expanded role, the CRA will have summary authorities to a judge advocate of three major functions. the Australian Military Court. The current • The CRA will initially provide advice to process of review will be discontinued. The commanding officers on the manage- right of appeal to the Defence Force Disci- ment of every application for redress of pline Appeals Tribunal will be retained. Cur- grievance and monitor the handling of rently, the tribunal may only hear appeals on those redress applications at the unit conviction on points of law, and may quash a level. It will have an enhanced advisory conviction or substitute a conviction on an and oversight function of every applica- alternative offence. This will be amended to tion. include appeals on punishment, noting that such an appeal might result in an increased • The CRA will have the authority to ad- punishment. vise on appropriately trained and quali- The third recommendation that the gov- fied investigating officers at this initial ernment cannot support is that an ADF ad- stage and, if necessary, will require an ministrative review board be established to alternative investigating officer to that improve the timeliness and impartiality of nominated by the commander. the complaints and redress of grievance • Where ADF personnel refer their com- processes. I again draw the Senate’s attention plaint to the Service Chief or the Chief to the government’s detailed response to this of the Defence Force following the deci- recommendation. As proposed, such an sion of the commanding officer, the agency would not support the relationship Complaint Resolution Agency, as in the between command and discipline, would present situation, will conduct an inde- introduce enormous duplication, be highly pendent review of the matter and provide resource intensive, provide no increase in recommendations to the decision maker. perceived independence and would remove All complaints will be registered with the responsibility and accountability of the Complaint Resolution Agency within commanding officers for the wellbeing of five days of initiation and it will be em- ADF personnel. powered to take over the management of The government have accepted, however, all cases unresolved by commanders 90 that there is a need to improve the redress of days after lodgment. In all cases, the grievance process, and in giving effect to agency will be the central point for recommendations from the 2004 redress of monitoring progress and resolution. A grievance system review we have begun to single register for tracking complaints implement a raft of new initiatives and pro- across the ADF will be implemented. cedures to improve the timeliness and trans- However, for those ADF personnel who, parency of complaint management, monitor- for whatever reason, do not wish to use the ing and review. In particular, we have di- chain of command, there will remain two rected that the Complaint Resolution Agency alternative avenues of complaint—the In- become the lead agency in the coordination spector General of the ADF and the Defence of complaints and redresses of grievances. Force Ombudsman. The existing Inspector
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General of the ADF was established as rec- Defence Force, the Secretary of Defence and ommended by Mr Burchett QC to deal ex- the Service Chiefs are committed to a fair clusively with military justice matters. The and equitable workplace and will personally IGADF was established to provide the Chief drive the implementation of these reforms. of the Defence Force with a mechanism for They will meet on a monthly basis to review internal audit and review of the military jus- and monitor progress made in implementing tice system independent of the ordinary these reforms, as well as the recommenda- chain of command and as an avenue by tions that Defence is already implementing which failures and flaws in the military jus- as a result of previous reviews such as those tice system can be exposed and examined so undertaken by Mr Burchett QC. A military that the cause of any injustice may be reme- two-star officer has been appointed to lead a died. Although it is not a general complaint dedicated team to oversee the two-year im- handling agency like the CRA, it does pro- plementation period. As a further measure of vide an avenue for those with complaints the government’s determination to thor- about military justice who are, for some rea- oughly and effectively reform the military son, unable to go through their chain of justice system, Defence will provide six- command to have their complaints investi- monthly reports on progress to the Senate gated and remedied. The government has Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Commit- drafted legislation to establish the Inspector tee throughout the two-year implementation General of the ADF as a statutory appoint- process. ment in order to further strengthen its inde- I said at the beginning of this statement pendence. that a modern and professional force de- In addition to this review mechanism, and serves a modern and effective system of completely external to the ADF, is recourse military justice. With the reforms I have an- to the Defence Force Ombudsman. This po- nounced today, the government will provide sition will retain legislative authority to re- a system that will better ensure impartial and ceive and review complaints and to initiate fair outcomes, and strike an effective balance on its own motion investigations into ADF between the need to ensure effective disci- administration processes. The Defence Force pline within the Australian Defence Force Ombudsman has statutory power to investi- and to protect individuals and their rights. gate a matter, make findings and recommend Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- a course of action to the appropriate decision tralia) (5.44 pm)—by leave—I move: maker, and to table a report in parliament if That the Senate take note of the statement. deemed necessary. I thank the minister at the outset for his re- The government is committed to sponse to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and reforming the military justice system to Trade References Committee report into address the concerns of defence personnel, military justice. This is a generally superfi- the parliament and the community. The gov- cial response to a serious report on a serious ernment will ensure that the system is ade- issue. In short, it is rather disgraceful that quately resourced by initially establishing an such a matter should have been left so long additional 35 positions, as well as two new unattended. The pain and suffering suffered permanent military judge advocates in addi- by so many under the current system of mili- tion to the Chief Judge Advocate for the Aus- tary justice should never have been tolerated. tralian Military Court, at an approximate cost In fact, it is a sad comment to note that after of $3.5 million per annum. The Chief of the
CHAMBER 122 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 nine years and six other inquiries so little has changes might be to the system, they will been done. only be as good as the government makes This response, as outlined by the minister, them. We do not want to see any more sui- is full of compromises. It is about process cides caused by bastardisation and harass- and tinkering with the status quo. None of it ment. We want to see that the perpetrators of will change the culture of behaviour which is offences are properly investigated without the root cause behind the problems. How- compromise and, if appropriate, dealt with. ever, the committee is to be commended for We want to see transparent, fair and efficient its commitment and determination to see processes where natural justice is paramount. something substantive done. That said We want to see a complete end to the current though, we know there is still a long way to culture. go. We know the process of the inquiry has That is a very difficult demand. Little of developed considerable expectations. Those the government’s response today gives us who have suffered the injustice of the current confidence that this change will occur. No system need assurance that the government matter what the changes to institutions and is serious in its response. They want to know processes might be, unsatisfactory human that, in the future, justice will be done. They behaviour is not easily transformed. The need to know that, in the future, others shall military has for too long tolerated, and even not have to suffer the way they have. Parents encouraged, a culture of persecution and bul- want assurance that their children are safe lying. This is often dressed up as discipline and that the duty of care means something. and control, but it is not. That is not to say I make a particular point of this, because that the military should not be tough. Mili- grieving parents want more consolation than tary life is tough—it has to be in many situa- has been provided to date. These reforms tions where control and management are will not address their needs. They want to paramount. We in no way resile from the see the principles of transparency and ac- sentiments expressed about the need for firm countability observed in fact. That includes military discipline as expressed in the minis- full and proper investigation, bringing of- ter’s statement, but at the same time we are fenders to account and no doubt some com- of the view that there are limits. Those limits pensation which addresses their loss. That is are too often exceeded and, beyond that, perfectly understandable, and we urge the there has been quite inadequate redress. government to seriously consider, free of the However, beyond that the Labor Party has current litigious and combative culture, the a number of serious concerns about the com- emotional needs of grieving parents. Their promises made by the government to the motives and emotions are understandable, committee’s recommendations. While there and simple apologies are not sufficient. does seem to be some acceptance of the There have to be better ways of satisfying principles enunciated by the committee, the their needs. grafting of the response into the current sys- The establishment of a new death inquiry tem rather than root and branch reform is process reporting directly to the Chief of the regrettable. For example, the establishment Defence Force may go some way to provid- of a military court might seem okay, but ing more assurance that past shortcomings without full tenure for properly qualified and will not be tolerated into the future. The experienced judges there is an immediate problem is, though, that whatever the compromise. The system just cannot let go. Similarly, the attitude to defence counsel
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 123 does not address the need for independ- stroyed will not take any satisfaction from ence—it is still compromised by the system. this. I can assure the government that we will Equally, it is disappointing that the recom- return to this subject frequently. As far as we mended changes to the system of administra- are concerned, this was the last chance to get tive review have also been compromised. the system fixed. The grafting of the principles of independ- The proof of the pudding is going to be in ence into the current system does not go far the eating, and the government is therefore enough, and the case for dismissing the on notice that continuing breaches of mili- committee’s views on cost grounds is super- tary justice will be sheeted home. Neverthe- ficial. In short, the committee’s recommen- less, I thank the minister for the expeditious dations for root and branch reform have been way in which he has handled the inquiry re- bypassed. We can only hope again that this port and for his response more or less within report and the government’s response will the time allowed. This is probably one of the represent a turning point. more serious issues the committee has dealt However, it must be said that there are a with, certainly in human terms. I also com- few positives. We welcome the acceptance of mend the chairman of the committee, Sena- the committee’s recommendation of ongoing tor Hutchins, and the committee secretariat reporting to the parliament on the progress of on the production of the quality report. I the reform of military justice. In that way we should also congratulate Senator Evans, who can keep a close eye on how the government provided much of the impetus, as well as proceeds down this path of reform and Senators Johnston and Payne, whom I sus- whether there are real changes. While we are pect have been very influential in obtaining disappointed that the government has re- such a prompt response. jected the recommendations on a clearer Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (5.53 separation of Defence and civilian investiga- pm)—by leave—I would like to speak tions, the commitment to upgrading the mili- briefly to the government’s response to the tary police is well overdue. Whether it works Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade is another thing but, once again, this shows References Committee report on Australia’s how restricted the government’s response military justice system. Firstly, I want to really is. Equally, whether the new forms of echo the concluding remarks of Senator appeal and review actually work is some- Bishop: the minister should be congratulated thing on which we must reserve our judg- for responding quite promptly to what was a ment. The reason for our scepticism simply very substantial report with a wide range of is that there is so much compromise in the recommendations. I believe the government government’s response that the transparency deserves a lot of condemnation for failing to and accountability the committee sought respond promptly—or at all, in many cannot be guaranteed. cases—to Senate committee reports. Overall, today’s response does not allay It is a credit to Senator Hill that on this our fears about the government’s intentions occasion he has bucked the trend and shown on military justice. The compromises are some respect for the Senate committee proc- extensive, and so we reserve our judgment esses. Equally importantly, he has shown until we can examine the final detail and see respect for the people who put their necks on the necessary legislation. Certainly those the line: the families of those who were af- who are mourning the loss of loved ones and fected by injustices who were willing to put those whose careers and lives have been de-
CHAMBER 124 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 their personal circumstances out in the public much as I could in following the initial in- arena because they believed in the need for quiry, which was very comprehensive and improvement in this key area, and they be- went on over quite a long period of time, and lieved in the need to minimise the prospects having read the government’s response, I do of other families going through what they think there are components and steps here had to go through themselves. It is not just a that people should take satisfaction from. I matter of senators feeling pleased that the say that with regard to not just the senators minister has responded quickly; it is a sig- and the secretariat but also the people in the nificant sign of respect for those people in Defence community who were willing to put the community who put such faith and effort faith in this process. I think they can take into this committee process. some satisfaction from the response. It is not I would also like to note that the minister as full and complete as it should be. There did the traditional practice—probably almost are still some uncertainties. As always we an outdated thing now—of putting forward a need to see the detail in the legislation that major policy pronouncement in the parlia- implements the announced changes to see ment rather than just holding a media confer- how it will work in practice and whether it ence outside, like Senator Vanstone did on matches what the government has said. changes to land rights, or even as Senator Clearly there will be need for further moni- Abetz did with his speech to the Sydney In- toring, and I am sure many senators will con- stitute, which was obviously a very exhaust- tinue to do that. ing process for him last night. It is good to Although the response does not go as far see the minister using the parliament for as it could have and should have, there are what it is for, and that is putting on the re- some significant steps forward in an area that cord, in a full way and with the personal ac- will always be fraught. If, after the changes tion of the responsible minister, the details of are implemented, the problems are not fully the government’s position and the reasoning or properly addressed, I have no doubt that behind it. We do not see very much of that momentum for further change will continue. anymore, sadly. I do not know if Senator Hill The fact that government has not gone as far is the last of the dying breed that still has a as the Democrats would have preferred—or bit of respect for the parliament and when he as far as the Senate committee would have passes on that will be the end of it; but I preferred, seeing that they put forward a would like to take the opportunity to note unanimous 40 or so recommendations— that and to encourage a few other govern- should not in any way suggest, ‘That is it. ment ministers to recognise the importance We have done as well as we could and it is of the parliament for presenting significant all over now.’ It is certainly not all over now, responses and ministerial statements such as and I am sure many senators will continue to this. push and pursue this issue to make sure that In terms of the contents of the response, I the intent and the spirit behind the recom- do not profess to have the same degree of mendations do get implemented in practice. expertise as the speakers to date or the I will not go through all of the government chairman of the inquiry, Senator Hutchins, responses individually but note that whilst who will speak next. It is difficult for small the government have not agreed to some of parties to be across the full details of these the recommendations they have at least taken issues with the wide range of committee in- the trouble to outline their rationale. I do not quiries that are going on. But having done as agree fully with all of the rationale, but it
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 125 does make a case and it does provide a minder to senators, the report that was deliv- framework for the debate to continue; and ered to the Senate on 16 June this year was that is the most important part. I think every- unanimous. The secretariat and the Senate body recognises the immense value and Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Refer- benefit to the entire community, as well as to ences Committee worked a long time and the Defence Force and Defence personnel very hard to come up with a report that we themselves, of having a system of military felt reflected the observations that we had justice in place that is efficient, effective and concluded as a result of our inquiry. Our in- fair. That is clearly in our national interest quiry commenced public hearings in April and it is something that all of us from all 2004. As I said, as a result of those hear- sides of the chamber desire. ings—I think there were eight of them—we I am sure there are still many elements came to unanimous conclusions. Senator within the Defence Force that would con- Bishop is right in mentioning a number of tinue to push for further acceptance of the the coalition senators who assisted and, by sorts of principles that were put forward. The agreeing to the conclusions that were in the opportunity for doing all that in a construc- report, made it a unanimous report. In par- tive way is there. I have a lot of faith in the ticular, I refer to Senator David Johnston and ability of the new Chief of the Defence Senator Marise Payne. Of course, the new Force, Angus Houston, and I know that he Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for has a genuine commitment to the wellbeing Trade, Senator Sandy Macdonald, who, as of all his personnel. Having said that, no one Senator Hogg has reminded me, does know a person can deliver utopia on their own. It bit about defence, was also equally of assis- needs the work of a lot of people, and it is a tance in coming to the conclusions that we role that the Senate can continue to play a came to in this inquiry. part in as well. The fact is that, as Senator Bishop has In summary, it is a reasonable response said, this is in essence the last chance for the from the government in many respects, but it military to put its house in order. The sub- still falls short in a few key areas. There are stantial parts of the committee report that still a few question marks that we will need have not been agreed to by the government to follow up on, and obviously there is a essentially are the contexts over whether or need for continuing oversight and assessment not issues dealing with disciplinary or ad- to see how things operate into the future. ministrative investigations should be dealt Given the sorts of commitments that the min- with or have some sort of input by civilian ister has put on the record through this rather than totally military inquiries. As a statement here today, the Democrats will result of those observations and hearings certainly continue to offer our support to the from April 2004 until the report was tabled process. I am sure many other senators will, on 16 June this year, as a committee we likewise, be putting a lot of their time into could not come to any other conclusion than trying to make sure that this important area that the Australian Defence Force could not of public policy operates as well as it really be trusted to conduct those inquiries or in- needs to. vestigations in-house. Senator HUTCHINS (New South Wales) My colleagues—and I am sure they can (6.01 pm)—The response by the Minister for talk for themselves—and I came to the con- Defence today is welcome. Just as a re- clusion that, as I said, the military could not be trusted. All the evidence that we received
CHAMBER 126 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 in relation to not just the circumstances sur- promise to ensure that the Director of Mili- rounding the suicides or accidental deaths tary Prosecutions is made independent from but also the stuff-ups that occurred in admin- the chain of command. We have requested istrative and disciplinary justice within the this over a few years now, and on each occa- system was that we could not come to any sion we have been given the undertaking by other conclusion than this. I can see the the government that this will be done, but handiwork of some of the coalition senators this has not occurred as yet. Again, this is in in some of the statements that the minister the statement by the minister today, and it is made today. They are a welcome develop- welcomed. ment in the response that the minister has put However, the government has failed to before us. I said that this was the ADF’s last take up our recommendation about due proc- chance—as did Senator Bishop, and my col- ess for ordinary ADF members, which would leagues in the coalition may come to the enable them to go before an independent same conclusion—to put its house in order administrative review board, in favour of before more radical reforms need to be ef- enhancing a complaints resolution agency. fected. This is the last chance, I believe. The oppor- In the last decade there have been six in- tunity is welcomed by me, and I am sure by quiries into one aspect or form of military the committee, to report every six months justice, and each one of them has cried out to over the next two years on the progress of say that it is not fair, that something is going the implementation process. dreadfully wrong and that the culture is diffi- I spoke to the committee secretary this af- cult and is not changing. I believe that, as a ternoon and she advised me that only as result of our inquiry, the government has early as this morning an RAAF officer had accepted substantial parts of our committee’s contacted the committee office to outline report. The commitment to an Australian some difficulties he had been experiencing as military court, subject to some constitutional a result of the military justice system. This is difficulties, will broadly match the recom- not a one-off situation. From 16 June on- mendations for courts martial, as per our ward, the committee secretariat has been committee recommendations. I think the receiving numerous inquiries from service government is to be applauded for the com- personnel seeking the redress of grievances mitment to an independent commission of or the application of military justice. The inquiry that will investigate serious incidents service personnel and their families believe on mandatory referral, and it will have a ci- that the Senate committee is some sort of vilian as its president. permanent standing body that is able to over- Best practice is to be encouraged within sight the implementation of military justice the service police through a tri-service inves- in the ADF. That, of course, is not our duty. tigation unit that will manage serious of- However, we cannot ignore the inquiries fences. I have serious reservations about the from members of the Australian Defence tri-service police forces. I do not think they Force or their families when they make seri- have been given the resources, the training or ous allegations about the denial of justice or the encouragement. I do not think they have the denial of access to administrative or dis- the stature that they require to do this, and ciplinary redress. that is one of the reasons why we came up We will probably need to consider these with the conclusions that we did. The gov- matters as a committee—and we will do so ernment must be held to its longstanding
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 127 over the next week or so—and decide how proceed in the way they have been for some we will deal with these inquiries. But, as I time, I do not think any government, whether said, they have not stopped since the inquiry it be us or the coalition, can ignore the fact presented its report on 16 June. I doubt very that there will need to be serious civilian in- much that they will stop, because there put in peacetime into the military justice sys- clearly is a group of people who have ex- tem. perienced the harshness of military justice, Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia) who believe that they have not been dealt (6.12 pm)—In the very short time that I have with fairly and who do not believe they have to respond to the government’s response to access under the current system for fairness our committee’s report—and I say ‘our’ be- or justice to be delivered to them. So they are cause it was a unanimous report—I first want going to the only body they believe is inde- to thank the families and witnesses who went pendent, and that is the Senate references to the trouble of making their submissions committee that I am currently the chairman and who, through great emotional difficulty of. in some circumstances, attended upon the We will do everything we can to assist the committee and gave their testimony. They government in this oversight or meeting with are courageous ADF people, as were their the implementation officer to make sure that family members. I thank them for that. I the progress is carried on and is in accor- want to be on record as saying that the ADF dance with the spirit of the inquiry’s report. will be much better in the long run for the But, in the end, as I said earlier, this does efforts of those family members and other still look to me like a victory for all of the people who showed their concern about mili- boffins that are running and have run mili- tary justice and came to the Senate Foreign tary justice in this country for some time. Affairs, Defence and Trade References There have been six inquiries in nine years. Committee. In each one of them the same points have Having said that, I want to pay a special been raised in reports, but they have some- but brief tribute to General Cosgrove, then how or other been fobbed off or obfuscated. Chief of the Defence Force. This was not an It was hoped they would go away, but clearly easy inquiry for him. He is very close to his they are not going away. They will not go troops and his culture. He is a very success- away until it is demonstrated to the ADF, ful military commander. Military justice is a ADF personnel and their families that they small but significant aspect of the function- will have access to justice that clearly has ing of the Australian Defence Force. General been denied them for some period. Cosgrove disclosed patience and a capacity The culture does need to change. I think to entertain what was difficult for him to en- my colleague Senator Hogg will comment on tertain, having been in the Defence Force for that. I hope that this report sends a signal to more than 30 years, as I understand it. I also those men and women who think we are still say that General Leahy of Army, Admiral back in the 19th century and that that is the Ritchie of Navy and Air Marshal Houston of appropriate way to conduct business. That is Air Force entertained the committee’s terms no longer the way. This is the last chance for of reference with the sort of dignity, honour the ADF. If we as members of parliament and seriousness that I would have expected receive further complaints that, even as a of them. They met my aspirations in that result of the implementation of these re- regard. I thank them for that. Again, this was forms, the people conducting the ADF still difficult for them. Case after case attacked
CHAMBER 128 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 the very integrity of the Defence Force that toric record. If I can read between the lines, I they have given all of their lives to. They think we have turned the corner. I would al- confronted these things, I think, as well as ways be very proud if my son chose to be- could be expected in the circumstances. come a member of the Australian Defence I am encouraged by the response of the Force. Minister for Defence. I have heard the oppo- Senator HOGG (Queensland) (6.17 sition spokesperson decry some of the as- pm)—I too was a member of the Senate For- pects of the response. I am encouraged and I eign Affairs, Defence and Trade References thank the minister and the Chief of the De- Committee in the conduct of this particular fence Force for what I perceive to be an ear- inquiry. I too welcome the timely response nest and sincere response to what has been a by the Minister for Defence this afternoon. It problem. It is difficult and yet in the pages of should be well noted that there are many re- the very many recommendations that the ports tabled in this parliament that are not government has accepted—and these were responded to in a timely way and this is one substantial reforms: new courts, new powers that was responded to with reasonable haste and new jurisdictions—the Australian De- by the government and by the minister. That fence Force has gone a long way towards should be clearly acknowledged. meeting the requirements of many members The report itself showed one thing: how of the committee. important the inquiries conducted by the I became concerned when the mother of Senate and, in particular, the committees of one of our special forces soldiers came to me the Senate are. It has shown that as a result with the story of her son. I listened for an of this report the government has made a hour or more. She is a Western Australian shift in the position that previously existed lady, quite an elderly lady and a delightful on military justice. Whilst it does not go the lady. I was outraged at the level of injustice whole way, it does go part of the way to that her son, who had given so much to his maybe resolving some of the difficulties. It is country, had to endure. I set about the task of welcome indeed and it does definitely show seeking to rectify that injustice. I, and to the real force that can be delivered by the some extent Graham Edwards from the work of the committees of the Senate. lower house, have been successful in that. Having said that I welcome the response The SAS soldier received a full written apol- of the minister, like some of my colleagues I ogy for the mismanagement of his case. am also disappointed about some of the re- In closing, I trust that no-one in future will sponses contained in the statement read by have to endure what that SAS soldier had to the minister this afternoon. I recall that when endure. I hope we have learned the lessons. the report was tabled in the Senate I did not The Australian Defence Force is about learn- speak at length. The report was a unanimous ing the lessons. This is a small but very im- report of the committee. The committee had portant part of the functioning of the Austra- sat through some quite difficult hearings lian Defence Force. On the whole, there are when we took evidence from members of the many things for all of us to be very proud public as well as from former and serving about in the functioning, the performance members of the Defence Force. It was quite and the commitment of our Australian De- stressful for us as individuals—and I re- fence Force members. This has been a long corded that on the occasion—as it was for and sorry saga in a dark corner of their his- members of the secretariat and members of
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Hansard who also listened to the evidence. It What is necessary is a system that delivers was one of those inquiries where there was a transparency and accountability throughout fair deal of tension in the inquiry itself, not the military chain. I do not know that that is because of partisan politics but because of going to happen. Whilst there is goodwill on the nature of the issue, which led people to the part of senior defence personnel, it is my feel very deeply for those who were appear- view that in some instances senior defence ing before the committee. personnel were the problem in the inquiry. So I welcomed the unanimous report that They were the people being complained was tabled and, as I said, I did not speak at about. I do not know that this necessarily length on it. But I did say that it showed in fixes that problem. From what I have heard, I my view that the system was broken and do not think it does. could not be fixed. It was not a system that Nonetheless, the initiatives that have been was going to be plastered over with little outlined by the government tend to indicate pieces of paper and fixed up on an ad hoc that there has at least been a significant shift sort of basis. I still have no reason to resile in the attitude of the government toward from that view. I am still of the view that the military justice. But, as my colleague Sena- system is broken, in spite of the good inten- tor Hutchins said, part of the problem has tions of the minister here this afternoon and been the culture of the Defence Force. I do in spite of the good intentions expressed on not know how you legislate a change in cul- behalf of senior personnel within the Austra- ture. That is a fundamental problem. You can lian Defence Force. I do not doubt their in- legislate many things, but legislating a tegrity, their goodwill or their good intent— change in culture is difficult indeed. The cul- not at all. But it became very clear to me that ture is endemic. It has been there over a long the system could not deliver fairness, equity period of time. To change that culture has not and justice to those who serve in our De- been easy. As a matter of fact, it has been fence Force. almost impossible. As Senator Hutchins In my nine-plus years in this parliament I quite rightly said, there have been a number have on many occasions stood up and said of inquiries to try to redress the lack of some things that are not necessarily popular, transparency and accountability in the mili- seeking the best outcome for our defence tary justice system, and it has not happened personnel because they deserve it. They are in spite of those inquiries. In the brief speech at the hard end of work in this country in the I made when the report was tabled, I said sense that they do not know their fate in that the last thing I wanted was to be back some instances from one day to the next and here at some time addressing problems with they are called upon to operate in some very the military justice system because it had difficult circumstances. But the military jus- once again failed. I do not think that we as a tice system did not deliver fairness, did not country can stand that happening. Our de- deliver equity and did not deliver justice to fence forces are far too important for that. our defence personnel. I am not certain that I note that in his statement the Minister for what the minister has put to us today is going Defence said that the government are com- to overcome the difficulties that I experi- mitted to reforming the military justice sys- enced and I am sure others experienced in tem to address the concerns of defence per- the evidence that was presented to the com- sonnel, the parliament and the community. mittee. Whilst I am pleased that the government are addressing the concerns of the committee, as
CHAMBER 130 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 expressed through the parliament, more im- tary justice system—where, I believe, there portant is the need of the community and the is part of an old boys’ system at work—are defence personnel. It was defence personnel addressed, the system will fail, regardless of and the community who were most ag- whatever changes the government brings in grieved, otherwise the inquiry would never by way of legislation to try to shore up the have taken place and there would not have system. I hope that at the end of the day the been the spirit and emotion that was pre- Australian people will be able to say that a sented to us at the inquiry. So I trust that the committee of the Senate has done something government will follow through on this positive, not only for the defence personnel commitment to the reform process and to but also for the defence of Australia. I seek addressing the concerns of defence person- leave to continue my remarks later. nel. Clearly, we will be looking forward to Leave granted; debate adjourned. evidence of that. On a positive note, I ac- DOCUMENTS knowledge that the minister mentioned in his statement that the government are going to Tabling adequately resource changes to the system, The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT and he outlined a figure of $3.5 million per (Senator Murray)—Pursuant to standing annum. I trust again that that is more than orders 38 and 166, I present documents listed adequate. I do not know that it is at this on today’s Order of Business at item 15 stage, and I will be looking closely in the which were presented to the President, the future to see that that is the case. Deputy President and temporary chairs of My colleague Senator Hutchins also said committees since the Senate last sat. In ac- that this is the last chance for the military to cordance with the terms of the standing or- get it right. I do not necessarily agree with ders, the publication of the documents was that, because, as I said, my view was that the authorised. system was broken and could not be fixed. The list read as follows— But let us assume that it is the last chance. I Committee report would then ask, ‘How many last chances are Procedure Committee—First report of 2005— Defence going to be afforded?’ I have a great Storage of Senate documents and unauthorised deal of respect for the CDF and a great deal disclosure of committee proceedings (received of respect for many of the personnel in the 20 September 2005) senior ranks in Defence. The challenge is Government documents clearly laid at their feet to ensure that they (1) Gene Technology Regulator—Quarterly re- deliver. If they do not, it will be fairly and port for the period 1 April 2005 to 30 June squarely upon their shoulders and they will 2005 (received 21 September 2005) have, once again, failed the personnel in the (2) Medibank Private Limited—Report for 2005 Australian defence forces. (received 26 September 2005) As Senator Hutchins said, we on the (3) Medibank Private Limited—Statement of committee are still hearing of people com- corporate intent 2006-2008 (received 26 Sep- plaining to the secretariat about grievances tember 2005) that are in the system. Admittedly, based on (4) Final Budget Outcome 2004-2005 (received the minister’s statement, some action is be- 28 September 2005) ing taken to clear some of the backlog that (5) Department of Education, Science and Train- exists within the system. But clearly, unless ing—Higher Education Report 2004-05 (re- some of the vested interests within the mili- ceived 30 September 2005)
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Reports of the Auditor-General Economics Legislation and References (1) Report no. 10 of 2005-2006—Upgrade of the Committees— Orion Maritime Patrol Aircraft Fleet: De- Appointed—Participating member: partment of Defence and the Defence Mate- Senator Joyce riel Organisation (received 23 September Employment, Workplace Relations and 2005) Education Legislation and References (2) Report no. 11 of 2005-2006—The Senate Committees— Order for Department and Agency Contracts Appointed—Participating members: (Calendar Year 2004 Compliance) (received Senators Joyce and Sterle 29 September 2005) Environment, Communications, Infor- Ordered that the report of the Procedure mation Technology and the Arts Legisla- Committee be printed. tion Committee— Ordered that consideration of the report be Discharged—Senator Bob Brown made a business of the Senate order of the Appointed— day for the next day of sitting. Senator Siewert AUDITOR-GENERAL’S REPORTS Participating member: Senator Bob Annual Report Brown The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Environment, Communications, Infor- (Senator Murray)—In accordance with the mation Technology and the Arts Refer- provisions of the Auditor-General Act 1997, ences Committee— I present the following report of the Auditor- Appointed—Participating member: General: Australian National Audit Office— Senator Joyce annual report for 2004-2005. Finance and Public Administration Leg- islation and References Committees— COMMITTEES Appointed—Participating member: Membership Senator Joyce The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Leg- (Senator Murray)—The President has re- islation and References Committees— ceived letters from party leaders seeking Appointed—Participating member: variations to the membership of certain Senator Adams committees. Legal and Constitutional Legislation Senator SANDY MACDONALD (New Committee— South Wales—Parliamentary Secretary to the Appointed—Participating member: Minister for Trade) (6.30 pm)—by leave—I Senator Joyce. move: Question agreed to. That senators be discharged from and ap- DEFENCE LEGISLATION pointed to committees as follows: AMENDMENT BILL (No. 1) 2005 Community Affairs Legislation and Ref- Returned from the House of Representa- erences Committees— tives Appointed—Participating member: Senator Joyce Message received from the House of Rep- resentatives returning the bill without amendment.
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CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT them with choice in years 11 and 12. The BILL (No. 2) 2005 Howard-Vaile government is committed to Assent providing opportunities for young people in this country. Unlike the opposition, it has a Message from His Excellency the Admin- plan. They have nothing—tipota; nothing. istrator of the Commonwealth of Australia The Howard-Vaile government is determined was reported, informing the Senate that he to ensure that a trade qualification is as val- had assented to the bill. ued as any qualification gained at university. APPROPRIATION (REGIONAL That is why the government has committed TELECOMMUNICATIONS SERVICES) $343 million over the next four years to sup- BILL 2005-2006 port the establishment and operation of the TELECOMMUNICATIONS (CARRIER Australian technical colleges. LICENCE CHARGES) AMENDMENT The 25 colleges, located in 24 regions (INDUSTRY PLANS AND CONSUMER across Australia, will give students the ability CODES) BILL 2005 to undertake a school based new apprentice- TELECOMMUNICATIONS ship in a traditional trade, which will lead to LEGISLATION AMENDMENT a nationally recognised vocational and tech- (FUTURE PROOFING AND OTHER nical education qualification. At the same MEASURES) BILL 2005 time, students will complete the academic TELSTRA (TRANSITION TO FULL subjects required for their year 12 qualifica- PRIVATE OWNERSHIP) BILL 2005 tion. Students will graduate from the colleges with a head start in their working life. They TELECOMMUNICATIONS will gain trade, entrepreneurial and business LEGISLATION AMENDMENT skills, resulting in better employment oppor- (COMPETITION AND CONSUMER tunities and the capacity to be self-employed ISSUES) BILL 2005 in the future or to go on to further education PROTECTION OF THE SEA (SHIPPING and training. In spite of what Senator Webber LEVY) AMENDMENT BILL 2005 said in this place this morning, that is hardly Assent going nowhere. Senator Webber mentioned Messages from His Excellency the Gov- that the lack of places was an obstacle to full ernor-General were reported, informing the economic development and growth. I would Senate that he had assented to the bills. suggest that the obstacles to full economic development and growth would be those ex- AUSTRALIAN TECHNICAL perienced under a Labor government, with COLLEGES (FLEXIBILITY IN 17 per cent interest rates and 10 per cent un- ACHIEVING AUSTRALIA’S SKILLS employment. NEEDS) BILL 2005 It is very pleasing that the government is Second Reading not imposing a particular model of operation Debate resumed. on the colleges. This government believes in Senator NASH (New South Wales) (6.31 choice—choice that allows each college to pm)—I rise speak to the Australian Technical operate in a manner which best suits the Colleges (Flexibility in Achieving Australia’s needs of industry and students in the regions Skills Needs) Bill 2005. This is a very im- where the colleges will be established. Many portant bill that will help get more young students will benefit from the introduction of Australians into traditional trades, providing the ATCs. Senator Webber also stated this
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 133 morning that the ATCs will provide places Vocol is a unique and innovative model for 7,000 students over a five-year period. I which has evolved to consistently meet the will correct that: the ATCs will provide demands of local industry while providing places for up to 7½ thousand students per years 11 and 12 students with a New South year, once fully operational. This bill will Wales Higher School Certificate, giving give flexibility to each of the Australian them a significant head start in achieving technical colleges to tailor arrangements to their career goals. The team at St Joseph’s meet local needs—a measure which will be college, led by Father Donnelly, are recog- especially important in the initial years of nised nationally as leaders in the field of vo- each college. cational education and training. Father Don- It was interesting to note Senator Lundy’s nelly believes the Australian technical col- statement in this place on this yesterday. She lege initiative of the federal government is a said: significant landmark in Australian secondary education. He also believes that adding a The government has stated right from the word go that the first colleges will be up and running at the new and needed dimension to the education start of 2006. It seems a very quick implementa- process has removed a straitjacket from sen- tion for a whole new concept in secondary educa- ior secondary schooling, which has generally tion, but I have to say that I have never founded favoured those students who aspire to uni- and run a brand-new education institution in un- versity. The reality is, and has been for a der six months—maybe people are doing it all the long time, that many senior secondary stu- time! dents do not have university aspirations. I suggest to Senator Lundy that there are Along with Father Donnelly, the Howard- people out there who have the skills to get Vaile government believes the establishment these colleges up and running quickly. The of the Australian technical colleges will pro- senator might do well to get out and talk to vide a more appropriate form of education some of the people who are going to estab- for these students. lish the ATCs. When the new Australian technical col- Last week I had the opportunity to meet a lege in Port Macquarie opens on 2 February successful applicant, who will be opening 2006—and, in spite of Senator Lundy’s mis- one of the first Australian technical colleges, givings, I have no doubt that it will—some in Port Macquarie on the New South Wales 260 students are expected to walk through its mid North Coast. Father Leo Donnelly, par- doors. In addition to providing trade training ish priest of St Agnes Parish, Port Mac- from four of the core trades of metal and quarie, has been the driving force behind St engineering, automotive, building and con- Joseph’s Vocational College, or Vocol, which struction, electro technology and commercial is a model very similar to the government’s cookery, the Port Macquarie Australian proposed Australian technical colleges. Fa- Technical College will offer marine studies ther Donnelly certainly knows what he is and related courses that will complement talking about. It was 26 years ago that he other courses to support the emerging, mul- established the vocational education program timillion dollar industries of boatbuilding in Port Macquarie. He has extensive experi- and aquaculture on the mid North Coast. ence in this field, and I have no doubt that he It also plans to offer courses such as retail has the ability to have this college up and and early childhood, which will not only at- running early next year. tract female students to these trade based colleges but also build on other courses by
CHAMBER 134 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 ensuring that students receive basic business model for their region and their students. The skills and a holistic education that ensures potential Port Macquarie college is a very that students will be job ready in every sense good example of that. I am advised that the of the word by the end of their higher school ATCs will be seeking to cooperate with ex- certificate. isting schools, both government and non- I sincerely congratulate Father Donnelly government, not compete with them. We and his team on their vision in providing op- hope that state governments will take a simi- portunity in education for students on the lar approach and that they will not raise ob- mid North Coast to date. I have no doubt that stacles to successful implementation of the they will continue to provide that opportu- AT Cs. nity very well through the establishment of The Howard-Vaile government recognises the ATC early next year. the importance of enabling more students to It is disappointing that opposition to the take up a trade as a career choice, and the government’s ATC initiative has come from Australian Technical Colleges (Flexibility in teachers unions and from some TAFEs. In Achieving Australia’s Skills Needs) Bill the case of the teachers unions, one would 2005 provides real opportunity and real expect that they would welcome this signifi- choice for young Australians. (Quorum cant development, which will greatly benefit formed) their students and would be particularly wel- Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL (New comed, I would imagine, by the students’ South Wales) (6.42 pm)—Although I rise parents. Similarly, the opposition from TA- today to speak on the Australian Technical FEs is hard to comprehend since the work of Colleges (Flexibility in Achieving Australia’s the ATCs in no way replaces TAFEs but will Skills Needs) Bill 2005, I do not do so with encourage more students to proceed to tech- any great enthusiasm. As someone who has nical and further education after year 12. spent a lifetime looking at issues associated Senator Allison referred to the Queensland with trade training and who, since coming to government’s submission to the Senate in- this place, has spent many hours in commit- quiry, which said that it supported the princi- tees looking at the issues of skills and skills ple of ATCs but wanted the Australian gov- shortages, I see this bill as a slap in the face ernment to consider alternative models for every teenager in this country. It will con- which would achieve the same objectives— tribute nothing over the long term to dealing that is, the Queensland government’s pre- with what is a chronic skills shortage in this ferred model whereby students would remain country and will provide nothing in the short in their existing schools in Gladstone and the term to meet the needs of our businesses, ATC would have a coordinating and school large, medium and small—and particularly based New Apprenticeships brokerage role. small businesses and high-value export in- dustries which are desperately crying out for The ATCs will operate as best suits the qualified staff. particular region. The government has set minimum requirements: the ATC must be a It is also a slap in the face for our current school so that students gain their higher institutes that are training the skilled trades- school certificate, it must offer SBNAs and it people of tomorrow, and that is in the TAFE must be industry led and relevant to industry system. These 24 technical colleges will be a needs. Beyond that, it is up to local industry pimple on the training infrastructure of this and communities to determine the best nation. The money and resources that will go
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 135 into establishing these colleges—some $340 is training apprentice welders, boilermakers million—would have been much better spent and mainly others in the metal trades. It is on boosting the TAFE system that currently run by the AiG and it has a classic structure exists and providing the extra training places that could have been readily picked up again which this government stripped out of the and emulated right across this country to deal TAFE system over the past five years. That with the skilled work force shortage in the would have done much more to encourage metal industry. It has a ready-made structure. young people into the trades and to boost the People knew about it; people have visited it; number of young people in skills training. people have gone and looked at it. It is not I am amazed at this proposition. I do not just dealing with young people in year 10 know who thought it up, who drew it up or and it is not just dealing with educating peo- who conceived the idea, but if the minister ple to year 12; it is picking up young people had walked down a street where he lives, in in year 9 and the beginning of year 10 who his own electorate, and looked at what is are in danger of falling out of the school sys- occurring in training in the building industry tem. It is giving those young people a taste and at the building skills centre at Rocklea, of what the possibilities are and how to get he would have found a ready-made formula on a path to a constructive career. In many to boost skills training in this country. That is instances when these young people have an institution that is funded by a levy on the been picked up, they have gone back to building industry in Queensland, which school willingly to complete their year 10 builders pay. That institution has married maths because they know that year 10 maths private sector training with public sector is central to a valid career in a trade. There is education institutes. It has married its struc- virtually no trade in this country in which, if ture with the TAFE structure. you do not understand year 10 maths, you will be able to effectively operate. That insti- That is an institution that has the capacity tution is performing that function. to train 3½ thousand apprentices per year in the building industry. It is training carpen- Whoever designed this product—these ters, it is training bricklayers, it is training technical colleges—knew nothing about plumbers, it is training welders and it is even what is inherent in a skilled tradesperson. training boatbuilders in its institute—but it is They knew nothing of what is required to doing more than that. It is also training inde- train a skilled tradesperson. The tragedy in pendent individual contractors not how to this country has been that we have put the perform their work but how to run their future of our future skilled work force essen- businesses. And we know that many inde- tially into the hands of the private sector. But pendent contractors in the building industry what is the truth of training in this country? and other industries go broke every year be- The reality is that a substantial proportion of cause they do not have the basic concepts of all our skilled tradespeople have been trained how to run a business. That is a ready-made in the public sector. Public utilities are where formula sitting there which could have been the bulk of our trade skills come from. implemented right across this country for The private sector in this country has been nowhere near the amount of money that is notoriously poor at training. It is very poor at being spent on these technical colleges. training, unlike its counterparts in the UK There is another one in the Hunter Valley: and elsewhere. It has been notoriously poor the Hunter Valley Training Company, which in this country primarily because it has been small. With the exception of a few compa-
CHAMBER 136 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 nies like BHP, which trains substantial num- 2005-06 as a vast majority of the currently bers of apprentices, the bulk of our appren- 409,505 HECS liable students attending uni- tices came through the public sector, through versity are forced to pay an additional 25 per public utilities. If you think that, because you cent, courtesy of the government and Minis- put 24 of these institutions around the coun- ter Nelson. try, the private sector is suddenly going to The report shows that the universities start picking up young people and training have been forced to find an ever-increasing them, you are going to be very disappointed. amount of their funding from overseas; $6.9 Debate interrupted. billion was sourced from overseas students DOCUMENTS studying in Australia, which I might add is significantly more than the $4.9 billion pro- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT vided by the Commonwealth in 2003. This (Senator Murray)—Order! It being 6.50 $4.9 billion in Commonwealth funding pm, the Senate will now move to the consid- represents 41 per cent of total university eration of government documents. funding, which is a drop from 57 per cent in Higher Education Report 2004-05 1996. The report also tells us that since 1996 Senator STEPHENS (New South Wales) fees and charges have risen from 13 per cent (6.52 pm)—I move: to 22 per cent and that the amount of funding That the Senate take note of the document. obtained through HECS has risen from 12 This is a very significant report that was ta- per cent in 1996 to 16 per cent in 2003. It is bled out of session and released in a quite very clear from the report that Minister Nel- extraordinary manner. There are two points son’s push for a user pays system in higher that I would like to make before I begin education is biting hard. thinking about the content of the report. First In 2004, 29 universities attracted 13,959 of all, there is the fact that the information undergraduate fee paying students. The pro- was actually available during June 2004, so portion can now be increased from 25 to 35 when it was released late on a Friday eve- per cent of the total number of places for ning, on 30 September 2005, it had been de- domestic students in a course. This increase layed for 15 months. Also, the way in which will see spiralling debts, with students pay- it was released late on that Friday evening, ing upwards of $100,000 for an undergradu- with no fanfare and no media release, raises ate degree. This level of indebtedness is the question of why that might be so. I can likely to deter many from entering university, certainly understand why that was so, be- knowing that they are going to have a debt of cause the report reveals some startling and some $100,000, which, as we know, is twice embarrassing information for this govern- the deposit required to obtain a loan for an ment and for the minister. average home in Sydney, which is Australia’s I can tell you that the report shows that most expensive property market. So people government funding to this sector has con- will be making some pretty tough decisions tinued to decline and that students’ contribu- about whether they will pursue a university tions, and therefore debts, have continued to education or try to secure their future home. rise. It shows that the accumulated HECS The report highlights some disturbing debts have risen from $3.9 billion in 1995-96 trends in university attendance, with those in to $9.1 billion in 2002-03. In fact, this will the most disadvantaged groups suffering the rise to an estimated $13.2 billion in the year greatest declines. By looking at the report we
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 137 can see that in 2004, for example, the num- country where the higher education system— ber of Indigenous students across Australia that is, the institution arguably at the fore- declined from 8,988 to 8,895, with the num- front of many of these endeavours, including ber of commencing students contributing to the intellectual development and wellbeing most of the decline, with a drop of six per of our young people, mature age students et cent. The number of enrolments of rural stu- cetera, but certainly the wellbeing for the dents dropped from 17.6 per cent in 1996 to future—is under attack like never before. 17.1 per cent in 2004. The number of iso- When Senator Stephens says that there is lated students dropped from 1.9 per cent in some bad news in this report, you had better 1996 to 1.2 per cent in 2004. The number of believe it. Anyone who looks at this report Australian students from non-English- even fleetingly should be astounded by some speaking backgrounds dropped from 5.4 per of the statistics they see. When you go to the cent in 1996 to 3.6 per cent last year. chapter in this report on the participation by It is clear in this report that the govern- equity groups, the news is bad, bad, bad and ment is trying at every opportunity to shift runs contrary to everything the government the cost for a university education onto the is saying about the impact of its higher edu- students and the universities themselves and, cation reforms, particularly on disadvantaged in doing so, is putting the cost of higher edu- students or aspiring students. cation beyond an increasing number of Aus- You look at the students from socio- tralian families at a time when this govern- economically disadvantaged backgrounds, ment is experiencing unprecedented budget and the report says the number of students surpluses. So the report is an indictment on has remained relatively low in 2004— the government’s higher education policy at surprise, surprise—and the number of stu- a time when Australia has a skill shortage. I dents from a non-English-speaking back- certainly guarantee that the Labor Party have ground has decreased since 1996. So you noticed this government’s report and will turn to students from rural and isolated areas. continue to fight to remedy the damage out- In 1996 rural students comprised 17.6 per lined in a report such as this. cent of domestic students and isolated stu- Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- dents were 1.9 per cent. In 2004 the propor- tralia) (6.57 pm)—I also wish to speak on the tion of domestic students from rural areas Higher Education Report 2004-05 and cer- declined slightly to 17.1 per cent—again, a tainly endorse some of the comments that decline. Indigenous education? If anything is Senator Stephens has just made. Senator an indictment of the system it is that section Stephens and I—if she does not mind my of the report. It indicates what an indictment saying so—were honoured to be guests at the policies are. In 2004 the number of In- last night’s Prime Minister’s Prize for Sci- digenous students across Australia declined ence dinner. I do not think the irony was lost by one per cent. We are talking about small on any of the people there that we were cele- declines, yes, but declines nonetheless. brating, as indeed we should, Australian en- We have seen 10 years of radical reform deavours and achievements in science and to the sector particularly in the last five science teaching. We were there in the pres- years. We have seen an increase in the ence of one of the Nobel Prize winners, Pro- costs—that is, a user-pays system—for stu- fessor Marshall. Of course, the government dents in this country. Students pay among the was also taking great delight in the signifi- highest fees in industrialised world for public cant achievements, yet we are living in a
CHAMBER 138 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 university education. Yet look at these stats: fees and charges. And, overall, what do we do you think we have got it wrong? If you need? We need indexation. We do not see want to talk about the necessary ingredients indexation as a key part of this report. So, for a positive, thriving, secure, sustainable yes, this report is an indictment of the sys- intellectual system of higher education, as tem. But I am not surprised because I am the government does—and so does the min- aware of the government’s ongoing attacks ister in the introductory remarks to this re- on the sector. I seek leave to continue my port, where he talks not only about the state remarks later. of play but also of the fact that we need to Leave granted; debate adjourned. continue to reflect on how Australia’s na- DOCUMENTS tional interest can be best served by our higher education providers—then we have Consideration got to address some real issues. They include The government documents tabled today investing properly in the system for the long and general orders of the day Nos 2 to 9 re- term—not just cost shifting, not just making lating to government documents were called students pay more, not just expecting busi- on but no motion was moved. ness and industry to make token contribu- ADJOURNMENT tions, but actually being gutsy about public The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT education as a priority for government. (Senator Moore)—Order! There being no But then you also have to remove the bar- further consideration of committee docu- riers: take away fees and charges and then ments, I propose the question: ensure that the system is being supported. That the Senate do now adjourn. You do not take away props like universal student membership that might assist stu- Defence Procurement dents, particularly those from disadvantaged Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- backgrounds or rural and remote areas or tralia) (7.03 pm)—On the MPI earlier today I those people who may have kids and need spoke of the failure of the Howard govern- child care. You get rid of voluntary so-called ment to manage defence procurement. Now, student unionism as a policy and what else in this adjournment discussion, I continue do you do? You ensure that research and de- those remarks. One of the most common fail- velopment is adequately funded. You ensure ings in defence procurement in recent times that universities do not have to rely on with some projects has been the cost-plus blackmail in order to get the funding that is model. These were projects where there was deserved. You do not tie university work- no fixed price simply because the specifica- place relations requirements to funding that tions had not been developed. Contractors, they may get through the Commonwealth consultants and lawyers love this approach, Grants Scheme, for example. There is a as academic case studies show. In fact, as we whole range of mechanisms that we could be know, the consultancy industry in Canberra employing to ensure that our higher educa- is opportunistic, waiting to get a long straw tion sector is vibrant for the future and that into the defence budget via this model. At the those people who have never really had a end of the day they leave, purses full, with shot at the system—unlike some of our min- little accountability. isters who have at least one if not more de- The example of the new personnel com- grees—are able to have a go. You do that puter system, PMKeyS, is relevant here. The through student income support and reduced price there for the consultant was accepted at
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 139
$1.22 million, but the eventual price deliv- fence personnel, civilian and uniformed. ered was something in the order of $15.76 Originally to cost $25 million, only half the million. This was simply due to the cost- planned functionality was built. Commenc- plus, open-ended contract negotiated at the ing in 1997, it was supposed to have been inception. Further, in the end, the project was completed by June 2000. To date it has cost less than half developed with long-term seri- $131 million, with an unknown amount to be ous consequences. This in turn in part led to spent to complete it. The trouble is that it the ANAO qualification of the Defence an- simply must be completed. As we know, de- nual accounts in 2003-04, with little likeli- fence records have been a mess for decades. hood of early removal. We can no longer tolerate circumstances The same criticism was made by the whereby individual entitlements cannot be ANAO of the Orion aircraft upgrade. The properly determined due to missing or in- ridiculous irony of this is that over the last complete files. That is not to mention the decade we have been regaled by the current continued failure to properly calculate the government about the need for greater em- outstanding liability for leave accrued. phasis on tendering and contracting proc- Third is the Orion upgrade project on esses. In a period of emphasis on outsourcing which ANAO has just reported. ANAO of hugely valuable services, especially in IT found this project, budgeted at $962 million, computer technology, this has been funda- overspent by $243 million. Again, the faults mental. Sadly, the Defence experience in were the cost-plus basis of the contract and a procurement at least, is a poor example of failure to investigate and plan for the pur- that new found discipline. To hear that De- chase of some aircraft from the United fence might outsource more of its function is States. I will address this project in more therefore of major concern. In itself out- detail at another time. sourcing is not the objection; it is the way it Next there is the armed personnel carriers, is managed. In fact it could be the answer. subject of ANAO’s report No. 3 of 2004-05. But it is a catch 22. The concept relies on The first phase of this project was proposed Defence getting it right the first time, and in July 1992 at a cost of $39.9 million. The there is little cause for optimism on that first delivery date was for 537 vehicles be- score. It is daunting, however, no matter tween 1996 and 1998. The balance were to what the government does, to see the same be delivered in late 2000. Now the refit will mistakes on tendering and contracting out- be done to only 350, the cost has blown out sourcing—that is for what we do see and that to $550 million and not one vehicle has been is probably only a small proportion of the delivered yet. total. Let me summarise the most recent The next disaster was the Bushranger ve- cases which highlight these continuing prob- hicle. Originally ADI was contracted to lems. I have already mentioned the frigates manufacture 341 of these vehicles at a cost contract. There are three new air warfare of $183 million in 1995. In December 2001, destroyers now to be built in Adelaide. In a recommendation was made to the minister terms of capability, were these frigate up- to terminate the contract. The government, in grades necessary at all? It might at least its wisdom, caved in and the contract was make easier any decision to mothball a few renegotiated for $218 million. Unit costs more. increased by 40 per cent and 4 years was Second is the PMKeyS project to develop added to the delivery time. The vehicle, now a new, single personnel system for all de-
CHAMBER 140 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 much lauded as another government smoke- costing, poor contracting processes, poor screen, has not been trialled in Australia but oversight and inadequate management. Con- is in place in Iraq. That has to be a signifi- tract details appear to be extraordinarily cant capability risk, produced simply by flexible with constant renegotiation over failed procurement process alone. quantities, specifications and payments. Fi- There are no doubt many other chapters nancial management practices are sometimes yet to come in this saga. It is a sorry tale, and illegal, with advance payments and the use one for which the Howard government ought of trust funds which are not accounted for. to be held accountable. We hear much about Cost-plus contracts inevitably exceed esti- the brave new world of the DMO and the mates. Contracts too commonly result in re- impact of the Kinnaird report recommenda- duction of quantities and specification in tions. The proof of that pudding, of course, order to stay within budget or to limit over- will be in the eating in due course. I would spend. Publicly available documentation is like to be optimistic, but the history to date is sparse and often contradictory. The bottom far too telling. line is that the taxpayer is being constantly misled, as is the parliament. Worst of all is I do acknowledge that there are some pro- that the capability sought is not being pro- jects which are well handled and come in at vided. cost and on time. If we consider the findings of ANAO in its report No. 45 on the Man- Illegal Fishing agement of Selected Defence Systems Pro- Senator SCULLION (Northern Territory) gram Offices, experience is patchy. Clearly (7.12 pm)—Since I arrived in this place I some areas of the services are much better have to say how impressed I have been by than others. Some personnel have obviously the people that I have met here and how im- done outstanding work to conclude their pro- pressed I have been by the decency of every- curement processes on time and at cost. We body I have come across. I think it is very are told, for example, that the new Armidale important for us, as at any level of leader- class patrol boat is a fine example. We cer- ship, to be very decently behaved and very tainly hope that the new ships to be built will respectful if we are going to be respected as follow the example of the Anzac ships about the Upper House that controls this nation. to be completed at Williamstown by Tenix. Unfortunately, today I experienced some- Those experiences do augur well. However, thing that made me realise that even in this the performance to date of some major pro- place there are some very grubby moments. I jects has been extremely poor. For the tax- speak, of course, of the duplicitous, deceitful payer it is a question of how much more can and misleading behaviour of one of those be tolerated given that demand for funding opposite while taking notice of answers. I elsewhere is growing. Waste is not to be tol- will quote Senator Crossin from today’s erated any more. Governments and ministers Hansard. Referring to me, she said: must be accountable. Certainly in the De- Senator Scullion, one of the boats in the harbour fence portfolio there is a long way to go. that your company looks after was known to have By way of summary, overruns in expendi- a dog on it in recent months ... ture in Defence are chronic and show no On the face of it, this is not something to signs of improvement. The biggest cause of leap out of bed about. However, as is well this is time delay due to a number of things known in this place, the implication could including inadequate specification, poor well be—and as far as I am concerned, it
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 141 is—that I had, and continue to have, some rose—and I quote from today’s Hansard— inappropriate, vested interest in this matter and said: and in this company. The implication of that Mr Deputy President, I rise on a point of order. statement was that the company that looks The senator just said that there were boats in after the boats for the Commonwealth Darwin Harbour being looked after by my com- agency was, in fact, mine. Of course, that pany. She knows full well that is not the case. I statement also implies that I am currently in have absolutely no association with Barefoot Ma- breach of section 44 of the Constitution and rine, and for three years in this place committees should not be in this place. of this chamber discussed that and found un- equivocally that that was not the case. I think she From my perspective, what is more con- should withdraw that remark. cerning is the impact it could have on my That is as far as it should have gone. Senator wife and the families of those workers that Crossin should have stood and said, ‘I have work for her—some 42 people in the North- made an error and I withdraw the remark,’ ern Territory. My wife is one of the most but there was none of that. There was not amazing Australians. I suggest she is doing even an attempt to withdraw that remark, the normal thing tonight—putting three kids although there were calls from this side to be to bed, doing homework, running down to decent and to withdraw the remark. That of- the harbour, jumping into a dinghy, roaring ten happens in this place—in the heat of the out into the harbour and climbing up the moment it is probably over the top and you three metre side of a bucking vessel to go move to correct the record. But no such at- and help out doing whatever she does under tempt was made. the contract. Perhaps it was that she did not know. I am However, it is of great concern to me and a reasonable bloke, so I checked the North- it should be of concern to anybody associ- ern Territory News. It was an issue about ated with this place that, from my wife’s per- whether I was to stay in this place. It hung spective, when people point the finger at me over my head for three years. On 17 Febru- in here and say, ‘You’re inappropriately as- ary, the Northern Territory News—maybe sociated,’ it does not help her position in a Senator Crossin does not read the NT very serious sense, because the implication News—said: is: Nigel is a part of the Commonwealth, so she will get some unfair dealing or some- Territory CLP Senator Nigel Scullion has been cleared of any wrongdoing over his family com- thing like that. Of course, all of us in this pany receiving $1.3 million from a Federal Gov- place know that it is quite the opposite, but ernment agency. that is the perception. It is the perception, That is pretty clear. I am not sure how many certainly of my wife and her workers, that other papers said that; I have not had time to that has not helped them and that that is not do much research. The article went on to say: in their interests. I have to say that neither I nor anybody else should tolerate what is ef- He resigned as a director of the family com- fectively an attack on my wife’s future. pany on February 25, 2002, and sold his shares to his wife three months later. Normally I am a very reasonable bloke, Anybody who was elected to this place at and anybody in this place will say that that is that time knows every little piece of that the case. Perhaps it was a mistake. Maybe story. Mr Shaw, who is a QC, was asked on Senator Crossin did not mean to mislead par- behalf of a committee of this parliament to liament. Maybe it was just a mistake. So I
CHAMBER 142 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 look into this matter. The article went on to Senator Bartlett think people on this side say: need a bit of stick they give it to them, but Mr Shaw’s finding was conclusive. this was a matter that they recognised was He said: “In my opinion the facts and circum- very sensitive, and it was very reasonable stances as disclosed to me do not show that Sena- that they should behave in a decent, respon- tor Scullion had any direct pecuniary interest in sible and honourable manner—the sort of any agreement with the public service of the manner that would lead people to say, Commonwealth. ‘That’s the sort of person I need representing That is pretty clear. But in case Senator me in parliament.’ Instead of the disingenu- Crossin does not read newspapers in the ous, misleading and grubby way this was Northern Territory, watch television or listen handled by Senator Crossin, there is an ex- to the radio, maybe she paid some attention ample from other people in the Labor Party to an issue in this place that I thought she and on the crossbenches of how it should be was keeping a pretty good eye on. Certainly done. As a representative of Territorians, this some of the comments were that she was senator is an absolute disgrace, and I hope keeping a pretty good eye on the issue. Per- that the Territorians bring it to her attention. haps she listened to Robert Ray, who said: It is never too late to correct the record. It is The one thing we accept is that Senator Scullion never too late to come to this place, stand up, acted in good faith in these matters. He did not behave decently and correct the record. attempt to exploit his position as a senator to Indigenous People: Wages maximise a contractual relationship with the gov- Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (7.19 ernment. Nor did he realise at the time he became a senator that this might be a problem. It was only pm)—I should try and think of something to later that he discovered that and, to his credit, he stick it to Senator Scullion about now just to brought it immediately to the attention of this balance it out, but I will focus on what I was chamber. going to talk about. The issue known as the This again goes beyond that, and I am mak- stolen wages matter, which was raised in this ing a couple of points here. The only other chamber a number of times by my former person to comment on this in this chamber Queensland Democrat colleague John was Senator Bartlett, who is in the chamber Cherry, is one that I believe needs much fur- at the moment. Senator Bartlett said: ther public debate and public and political pressure. In short, whilst an enormous Also, it should be noted that the approach Senator Scullion took to this issue, as far as I can amount of detail is now available, thanks see, was also fully above board and he should be particularly to the research of Dr Ros Kidd, commended for that. Perhaps there would have the simple facts are that a large percentage of been a temptation to just quietly fix up his affairs the wages, federal child endowment and re- and hope that nobody noticed—and perhaps they lated welfare payments that were made to would not have; I do not know—but certainly he Aboriginal people in Queensland over many did handle it appropriately. He notified the cham- decades was put aside into government run ber immediately he became aware of it, put all the trust accounts and other accounts and only a facts there and let them fall where they may. fraction of it was ever paid to the individuals I do not quote those remarks because they who were legally entitled to those wages and are about me—they are about the decency of payments. two people who are not necessarily well There is quite a lot of data now in the pub- known for being nice and kind to those on lic arena that shows basically what was the other side. When Senator Robert Ray and
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 143 large-scale theft by the Queensland govern- enough. The Queensland Labor Party’s own ment of the wages and income support pay- policy adopted at their state conference spe- ments that Aboriginal people were clearly cifically required full and proper reparation legally entitled to. To give the Queensland of all entitlements. To fail to do so and to government a small degree of credit, it has in simply buy people off, in effect, with less recent years endeavoured to address the issue than they are entitled to, and to give them an by providing reparations. In 2002, the In- apology only if they agree to sign away their digenous Wages and Savings Reparations future legal rights to anything else they may Project was established, which provides eli- be entitled to, is showing pretty poor faith. In gible claimants with a lump sum of $2,000 or many respects, this issue is also about show- $4,000 plus an apology in parliament. In or- ing basic respect for what is a clear-cut case der to receive that payment, individuals have of injustice. to relinquish any legal rights they may have There are ongoing efforts by many people under the various so-called protection acts to try to get full justice for people who are that were in place in Queensland between entitled to reparations. There are related is- 1897 and 1984. sues of large numbers of Indigenous people This is not just a matter of racial discrimi- in Queensland who were underpaid consis- nation or unfair treatment of Indigenous tently for many years and who were unlaw- people, although it certainly is that. It is an fully underpaid from the time of the federal issue of basic wages justice and basic rights Racial Discrimination Act coming into force under workplace and industrial laws. At a in 1975. There are many cases where Abo- time when the community is debating poten- riginal and Torres Strait Islander people were tially very significant changes to industrial paid significantly less than other people do- relations laws, it is important to note this ing exactly the same job. Those are clear-cut very serious breach of basic workplace jus- cases of racial discrimination, as has been tice that still remains unresolved in Queen- found by the courts. This is an area where sland. Whilst there has been a small repara- there are still unresolved injustices. tion offered by the Queensland government, It costs the state government money to it is quite clear—the facts are on the public make proper reparations to people, but record—that it is far less than what many clearly it is money that people are entitled to. people would be legally entitled to. It also It is not acceptable for Queenslanders to applies only to people who are still living; it have money taken from them unlawfully— does not apply to the descendants of people whether it is Aboriginal people or anybody who were unlawfully not paid or prevented else—by any government; and it is not ac- from accessing their wages and other enti- ceptable for them to be unlawfully underpaid tlements. and then for future governments to say: It is estimated that up to 60 per cent of ‘Sorry about that. That is the way things workers’ wages went into a general trust ac- were back then, and it is a bit of a shame. We count, 10 per cent went into the Aboriginal might give you a little bit of money to make Welfare Fund, and approximately 30 per cent ourselves feel better.’ We are talking about was given to Indigenous people. This is an many thousands of Indigenous people. We area where there is still clearly injustice that are also almost certainly talking about very needs to be redressed, and the Queensland dodgy bookkeeping on the part of the gov- government—whilst it should be noted it has ernment—which is fairly ironic, given that done something—has clearly not done
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Indigenous organisations are often attacked and there was evidence of widespread fraud for inadequate corporate governance. by employers. Research that Dr Kidd has done in going In Western Australia, initial research by a into some of these files shows that there Western Australian academic, Anna Hae- were regular warnings from auditors and blich, shows that WA modelled its controls regular warnings of fraud in the way that on Queensland legislation, and there are money was taken from Aboriginal people about 5,000 potential claimants alive today and basically put sideways into other peo- who may be entitled to receive moneys that ple’s pockets. There were warnings that the they were always entitled to. Every state is so-called thumbprint system was corrupted different. In the Northern Territory, which for and that there was a risk of widespread fraud a long time came under direct federal con- and inappropriate use of power over people trol, the situation is different again. There is by having control of their money. a growing argument that there needs to be an I should also say that this issue really only overall examination of the extent of this dis- came to light because somebody started graceful injustice, which extends back over looking into it. If it had not been for con- many decades, to try to get to the truth. I certed efforts to follow through and start think that, in many ways, acknowledgement digging out the truth, it may well have never that injustice was done is more important been properly revealed. I think there is a than the money. There needs to be reparation growing case to be made for similar exami- where possible and there certainly needs to nations in other states. There is already rec- be a recognition of the extent of this clear-cut ognition in New South Wales that the previ- example of racial injustice and workplace ous so-called Aborigines Protection Board— injustice. which had power over the earnings, savings Gunns Ltd and entitlements of many Aboriginal peo- Senator MILNE (Tasmania) (7.29 pm)— ple—had money placed in trust accounts, I rise tonight to talk about the culture of fear, and it is suggested that there are many poten- intimidation and menace that currently exists tial claimants who deserve to have their law- in Tasmania as a means of maintaining the ful entitlements paid back to them. There is power of the forest industry in Tasmania, some work being done on trying to work out particularly by Gunns Ltd which, in fact, has the best scheme for that in New South Wales. become the de facto government of Tasmania An Aboriginal trust fund reparations scheme and the puppet-master of the Labor Lennon was established by the state government to- government. Tonight I would like to talk wards the end of last year, and we need to specifically about the case of a young jour- make sure that that is adequate. nalist, Wes Young, who was employed as a There is initial evidence that the practice cadet journalist at the Examiner newspaper. of withholding moneys in trusts and other He was employed there until such time as he separate accounts occurred in a reasonably tried to do his job. His job was to write for widespread way in Victoria. There is cer- that newspaper in a column called ‘Around tainly evidence in South Australia, where the the region’. controls were similar to those in New South This young journalist was trying to write Wales, that Aboriginal people who were ap- stories about what was really going on in the prenticed out to work had controls on their Tamar region of Tasmania, in response to the wages and savings regulated by government announcement by Gunns that they would
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 145 build a native forest based pulp mill at that former journalist from the Examiner is the particular place, wanting access to native public relations person for Gunns. You also forests for 30 years. Allegedly, in the first have a longstanding history going back to place, it is a chlorine-free pulp mill no 1989, when the chairman of the board of longer. It is now to be elemental chlorine- Gunns Kiln-Dried Timbers attempted to free, which means that it will use chlorine bribe a member of parliament to cross the dioxide with all the associated pollution floor, saying that the reason he did so was problems. The problem for Wes occurred that, if the Labor-Green Accord came to when he tried to write the stories of the re- power, it would affect his timber interests gion, including a story about the emergence and the profits from those timber interests. of a group called the Tamar Residents Action The royal commission that followed found Committee, which was formed to oppose the him guilty and he was imprisoned for that particular technology and the siting of the attempt to corrupt democracy in Tasmania. mill. It was made very clear that the Exam- The power of Gunns is as one of a de iner was not going to run the story of the facto government. The journalist concerned formation of that particular group. was trying to do his job at the Examiner. He He then tried to write another story. This was then offered a job with Rural Press at a time it was in response to West Tamar Dep- neighbouring newspaper and he accepted uty Mayor Peter Kearney telling him that that job because both the Examiner and this there would be a motion tabled at the council other newspaper are owned by Rural Press. It meeting calling for an elector poll along the was, in effect, a transfer. He spoke to the lines of, ‘Do you support the proponents of Examiner about that transfer. In the mean- the proposed pulp mill’s decision to build it time, the chief of staff then rang the other in the Tamar Valley?’ It was clear that the newspaper and spoke in a way that under- Examiner chief of staff did not want that mined the journalist, Wes Young, and the story written, and so he indicated to Wes offer of the job was withdrawn as a result. Young that he was not prepared to run the When Wes went back to the Examiner, say- story unless he saw something in writing. ing that the opportunity for the job in the When the something in writing turned up at sister newspaper, if you like, had been with- the newspaper by way of a fax to confirm drawn and therefore he withdrew the trans- that the story was true, the story was run, but fer, the chief of staff took the opportunity to Wes Young was then hauled over the coals say that he had not regarded it as a transfer, for having run the story. The fact is that it that in fact it had been a resignation, that he would have been impossible for a cadet jour- had accepted the resignation and that was the nalist to write a story like that, off his own end of it. All of the journalists at the Exam- bat, to get it past the night editor and the iner were horrified by this treatment and subeditors and to get it into the paper if it signed a petition to that effect to the man- had not been seen and approved by all those agement but to no avail, and the matter is people in the hierarchy. now in the Industrial Commission in relation What is going on here is that the Examiner to unfair dismissal. newspaper has a special relationship with This is really about freedom of speech in Gunns and the state government. You only Tasmania. It is about a community trying to have to look at the relationships in Tasmania have the facts and the news reported as news to see that. The former editor of the Exam- rather than as an advertorial for this particu- iner now works in the Premier’s office. A lar company, Gunns. We have already seen
CHAMBER 146 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 with Gunns 20 how Gunns have taken to to great effect to bring an oppressive silence back court people who have dared to promote on this island. what they are doing in Tasmania. In fact, an That is what is going on in Tasmania—it is article in Saturday’s Sydney Morning Herald an attempt to bring an oppressive silence said: back to our island. I stand here tonight to Gunns supporters say the company is simply stand up for the people of Tasmania who are exercising its right, via the courts, to operate its asking for freedom of speech, for the right to business in peace. But for Brown— control their own destiny, for the community that is, Senator Brown— to be properly consulted and for a capacity his co-defendants and supporters what is at issue for people to challenge the relationship be- is the right to speak freely on issues of public tween the state government, the big end of interest without the risk of being sued. town and the newspapers that operate in And, in the case of Wes Young, without the Tasmania—in particular, the Examiner news- risk of losing your job because you are trying paper. to do your job in a frank and fearless way. I make a plea for people to support young There are stories by other journalists at the journalists such as Wes Young and take an Examiner. One was about Les Rochester and interest in this matter because, whilst it is another was an interview with John Gay. In happening in Tasmania at the moment, Tas- that interview, John Gay admitted that the mania is a microcosm of the rest of the coun- pulp mill has not going to be state of the art try. As we are seeing a rush to take away and so the Examiner did not run that story, civil liberties and freedom of speech around but it was very keen to run very prominently the rest of the country with excessive laws, an article written by Greg Barnes critical of we might well think about what is going on Les Rochester, the spokesperson of TRAC. in Tasmania and fear for the future unless What we can clearly see is that the Exam- people of good heart stand up for an open iner’s coverage of the pulp mill issue is bi- society in which debate is encouraged and ased—that is without doubt. One only has to where journalists can report without fear or look at the coverage to see that that is the favour and be supported for doing so by their case. There is example after example of the editors and chiefs of staff instead of being suppression of stories that are in any way dismissed in the appalling way that Wes critical and the promotion of stories that are Young was. in favour. Media Watch exposed the ludi- I think he should be reinstated. People crous situation earlier this year when the Ex- should get behind him. Even the ABC was aminer ran as news what was in fact partly threatened with legal action because they taken straight from an advertising feature, dared to interview Wes Young and talk about presumably a fair bit of which was paid for his situation. It is disgraceful. The people of by the state government. Tasmania need to really challenge this rela- The point of raising this here in the Senate tionship between the state government and tonight is to inform people around the coun- Gunns and the culture of fear and intimida- try of just how serious the situation is in tion. It is time to get rid of both the puppet Tasmania. Richard Flanagan a while ago and the puppet master. indicated: Senate adjourned at 7.40 pm Lies, innuendo, smears, the threat of no more employment: all these devices are used and used
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 147
DOCUMENTS Civil Aviation Act— Tabling Civil Aviation Regulations— Instruments Nos— The following government documents were tabled: CASA 413/05—Designation—of air- space; and Direction—broadcast re- Australian Rail Track Corporation Limited quirements and frequency (ARTC)—Statement of corporate intent [F2005L02947]*. 2005-06. CASA EX45/05—Exemption— Department of Human Services—Report supervision by approved agricultural for the period 26 October 2004 to 30 June (aeroplane) pilot [F2005L02785]*. 2005. CASA EX47/05—Exemption— Federal Police Disciplinary Tribunal— training and checking organisation, Report for 2004-05. flight check system Productivity Commission—Report—No. [F2005L02738]*. 32—Review of Part X of the Trade Prac- Civil Aviation Safety Regulations— tices Act 1974: International liner cargo shipping, 23 February 2005. Airworthiness Directives—Part— Torres Strait Protected Zone Joint Author- 105— ity—Report for 2002-03. AD/A320/130 Amdt 3— Tabling Goodrich Carbon Brake Take-off/Landing Perform- The following documents were tabled by ance Reduction the Clerk: [F2005L02826]*. [Legislative instruments are identified by a AD/A320/184—Inboard Federal Register of Legislative Instruments Flap Trunnion (FRLI) number] [F2005L02850]*. Australian Passports Act—Australian AD/A330/52—Electronic Passports Amendment Determination 2005 Instrument System Display (No. 1) [F2005L02625]*. Units [F2005L02896]*. Australian Prudential Regulation Authority AD/A330/53—Electronic Act—Non-Confidentiality Determination Instrument System Display No. 9 of 2005—Information provided by Units [F2005L02895]*. locally-incorporated banks and foreign AD/B727/197—MLG ADIs under Reporting Standard ARS 320.0 Wheel Well Pressure (2005) [F2005L02706]*. Floor—2 [F2005L02825]*. Banking Act—Banking (Prudential Stan- AD/B737/57 Amdt 3— dards) Determination No. 2 of 2005— MLG Actuator Beam References in APS 112 to AGN 112.1 [F2005L02824]*. [F2005L02873]*. AD/B737/217 Amdt 1— Building and Construction Industry Im- Reinforced Flight Deck provement Act—Select Legislative Instru- Door Decompression Panel ment 2005 No. 204—Building and Con- [F2005L02823]*. struction Industry Improvement Regula- tions 2005 [F2005L02570]*. AD/B747/241 Amdt 1— Flight Deck Dripshield Fire Blocking Installation [F2005L02822]*.
CHAMBER 148 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
AD/B747/333—Door 5 AD/DH 82/14—Streamline Crew Rest Wires [F2005L02793]*. [F2005L02821]*. AD/DH 83/4—Streamline AD/B747/334—Escape Wires [F2005L02790]*. Slides, Ramp Slides, and AD/DH 85/2—Streamline Slides/Rafts of Upper Wires [F2005L02789]*. Deck, Off-wing, and Main AD/DH 87/3—Streamline Doors [F2005L02820]*. Wires [F2005L02788]*. AD/B747/335—Station AD/DHC-8/46 Amdt 4— 980 Upper Deck Floor Cockpit Door Alternate Re- Beam [F2005L02819]*. lease [F2005L02784]*. AD/B767/133 Amdt 1— AD/DHC-8/103—Cockpit Flight Deck Dripshield Fire Door Hinge Attachment Blocking Installation [F2005L02783]*. [F2005L02818]*. AD/DO 228/3— AD/BAe 146/73 Amdt 1— Windshield Wash System MLG Door Lock and MLG [F2005L02843]*. Uplock [F2005L02817]*. AD/DO 228/4—Cockpit AD/BELL 206/153 Amdt and Cabin Auxiliary Heat- 3—Tail Rotor Blade Trail- ers [F2005L02842]*. ing Edge Skin Cracks [F2005L02808]*. AD/ECUREUIL/113— Engine Controls—Twist AD/BELL 206/160—High Grip Assembly Forward and High Aft [F2005L02816]*. Crosstubes [F2005L02807]*. AD/ECUREUIL/114—Tail Rotor Drive Shaft AD/BELL 206/161— [F2005L02921]*. Power Turbine RPM Steady State Operation AD/EMB-120/39—APU [F2005L02846]*. Firewall [F2005L02781]*. AD/BELL 430/4—Servo AD/F50/92 Amdt 1— Actuator Bolts Engine Mounting Frame [F2005L02804]*. Welds [F2005L02780]*. AD/BELL 430/5—Never- AD/F100/71—Main Land- Exceed Speed— ing Gear Bay Instrumentation Change Fuel/Hydraulic Lines [F2005L02845]*. [F2005L02841]*. AD/CESSNA 525/5— AD/F100/72—Landing Engine Fire Extinguisher Gear—Brake Control Lev- Bottle Wiring Identification ers [F2005L02838]*. [F2005L02844]*. AD/GA8/3—Forward AD/CIRRUS/4—Crew Cargo Door Slide Seats [F2005L02878]*. [F2005L02897]*. AD/DH 60/8—Streamline AD/GAZELLE/32— Wires [F2005L02796]*. Goodrich Hoist Pyrotech- nic Squibs [F2005L02771]*.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 149
AD/JETSTREAM/101— Manual of Standards Part 172 Down Lock Assembly Amendment (No. 1) 2005 [F2005L02835]*. [F2005L02651]*. AD/LEARJET 35/32 Amdt Civil Aviation Act, Commonwealth Au- 1—Tip Tank Flapper thorities and Companies Act, Customs Valves [F2005L02833]*. Administration Act, Family Law Act, Fi- AD/LEARJET/36 Amdt nancial Management and Accountability 1—Tip Tank Flapper Act, Financial Transaction Reports Act, Valves [F2005L02832]*. Freedom of Information Act, Health Insur- ance Act, Health Insurance Commission AD/R22/51 Amdt 2—Main Act, Income Tax Assessment Act 1997, Rotor Clutch Shaft Lands Acquisition Act, Maternity Leave [F2005L02830]*. (Commonwealth Employees) Act, Medical 106— Indemnity Act, National Health Act, Om- AD/ARRIUS/11—Fuel budsman Act, Privacy Act, Proceeds of Control Unit “Delta P” Crime Act, Public Works Committee Act Diaphragm and Superannuation (Productivity Benefit) [F2005L02847]*. Act—Select Legislative Instrument 2005 AD/BR700/7—Engine No. 207—Human Services Legislation Electronic Controller Amendment Regulations 2005 (No. 1) (EEC) [F2005L02879]*. [F2005L02673]*. AD/PW100/12—Propeller Class Rulings— Shaft [F2005L02831]*. Addendum—CR 2004/96. AD/TAY/12 Amdt 4—Low CR 2005/73-CR 2005/77. Pressure Compressor Ice Commonwealth Authorities and Compa- Impact Panels nies Act—Notices pursuant to para- [F2005L02828]*. graphs— AD/TAY/15 Amdt 1—High 45(1)(a) and (c)—Participation in for- Pressure Turbine Stage 1 mation and membership of CRC NPB Discs [F2005L02827]*. Ltd. 107— 45(1)(b)—Acquisition of share in HIH AD/APU/19— Claims Support Limited. Micorturbo—Overspeed Consular Privileges and Immunities Act— Protection Channel Consular Privileges and Immunities (Indi- [F2005L02849]*. rect Tax Concession Scheme) Amendment AD/INST/52—SVS I and Determination 2005 (No. 2) IA Standby Vacuum Sys- [F2005L02626]*. tem [F2005L02837]*. Corporations Act— AD/PR/35 Amdt 3— Accounting Standards— Propeller Hub Wall Crack- AASB 7—Financial Instruments: ing [F2005L02881]*. Disclosures [F2005L02855]*. AD/RAD/43 Amdt 6— AASB 1048—Interpretation and Ap- ATC Transponder Systems plication of Standards with Active Mode C [F2005L02863]*. [F2005L02829]*.
CHAMBER 150 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
AASB 2005-10—Amendments to 73 of 2005 [F2005L02811]*. Australian Accounting Standards 74 of 2005 [F2005L02815]*. [F2005L02840]*. Tariff Concession Orders— ASIC Class Orders— 0504519 [F2005L02791]*. [CO 05/874] [F2005L02665]*. 0504697 [F2005L02792]*. [CO 05/903] [F2005L02777]*. 0504709 [F2005L02899]*. [CO 05/957] [F2005L02893]*. 0504760 [F2005L02794]*. [CO 05/986] [F2005L02890]*. 0504835 [F2005L02795]*. Crimes Act—Select Legislative Instrument 0504881 [F2005L02900]*. 2005 No. 202—Crimes Amendment Regu- lations 2005 (No. 3) [F2005L02591]*. 0505070 [F2005L02902]*. Customs Act— 0505088 [F2005L02797]*. CEO Directions Nos— 0505158 [F2005L02799]*. 1 of 2005 [F2005L02663]*. 0505170 [F2005L02800]*. 2 of 2005 [F2005L02664]*. 0505242 [F2005L02903]*. CEO Instruments of Approval Nos— 0505337 [F2005L02801]*. 49 of 2005 [F2005L02712]*. 0505865 [F2005L02904]*. 50 of 2005 [F2005L02714]*. 0505963 [F2005L02905]*. 51 of 2005 [F2005L02721]*. 0507317 [F2005L02802]*. 52 of 2005 [F2005L02724]*. 0507508 [F2005L02689]*. 53 of 2005 [F2005L02729]*. 0507515 [F2005L02853]*. 54 of 2005 [F2005L02736]*. 0507516 [F2005L02854]*. 55 of 2005 [F2005L02739]*. 0507517 [F2005L02857]*. 56 of 2005 [F2005L02744]*. 0507525 [F2005L02667]*. 57 of 2005 [F2005L02745]*. 0507653 [F2005L02691]*. 58 of 2005 [F2005L02748]*. 0507654 [F2005L02692]*. 59 of 2005 [F2005L02750]*. 0507659 [F2005L02803]*. 60 of 2005 [F2005L02752]*. 0508243 [F2005L02672]*. 61 of 2005 [F2005L02753]*. 0508244 [F2005L02693]*. 62 of 2005 [F2005L02754]*. 0508246 [F2005L02694]*. 63 of 2005 [F2005L02755]*. 0508308 [F2005L02695]*. 64 of 2005 [F2005L02760]*. 0508311 [F2005L02674]*. 65 of 2005 [F2005L02761]*. 0508313 [F2005L02676]*. 66 of 2005 [F2005L02762]*. 0508317 [F2005L02696]*. 67 of 2005 [F2005L02764]*. 0508319 [F2005L02858]*. 68 of 2005 [F2005L02765]*. 0508474 [F2005L02697]*. 69 of 2005 [F2005L02766]*. 0508475 [F2005L02677]*. 70 of 2005 [F2005L02768]*. 0508476 [F2005L02678]*. 71 of 2005 [F2005L02769]*. 0508478 [F2005L02698]*. 72 of 2005 [F2005L02770]*. 0508479 [F2005L02679]*.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 151
0508490 [F2005L02699]*. ties (Indirect Tax Concession Scheme) 0508491 [F2005L02859]*. Amendment Determination 2005 (No. 2) [F2005L02627]*. 0508492 [F2005L02860]*. Environment Protection and Biodiversity 0508513 [F2005L02861]*. Conservation Act— 0508589 [F2005L02805]*. Amendments of lists of— 0508590 [F2005L02864]*. Specimens taken to be suitable for 0508612 [F2005L02865]*. live import, dated— 0508705 [F2005L02866]*. 9 September 2005 0508781 [F2005L02867]*. [F2005L02655]*. 0508783 [F2005L02868]*. 12 September 2005 0508789 [F2005L02869]*. [F2005L02742]*. 0508906 [F2005L02806]*. Threatened species, dated 2 Septem- ber 2005 [F2005L02657]*. 0508908 [F2005L02906]*. Recovery Plan for the Round Island Pet- 0508909 [F2005L02907]*. rel, Herald Petrel, Antarctic Tern (New 0508910 [F2005L02908]*. Zealand), Antarctic Tern (Indian 0508911 [F2005L02909]*. Ocean), Blue Petrel, Fairy Prion (south- ern), Heard Shag, Macquarie Shag, 0508913 [F2005L02870]*. Soft-plumaged Petrel and Australian 0509091 [F2005L02910]*. Lesser Noddy 2005-2010 0509092 [F2005L02912]*. [F2005L02836]*. 0509093 [F2005L02913]*. Whale Shark Recovery Plan 2005-2010 Tariff Concession Revocation Instru- [F2005L02834]*. ment 17/2005 [F2005L02688]*. Export Control Act—Export Control (Or- Defence Act— ders) Regulations— Defence Determination 2005 (Employer Export Control (Eggs and Egg Prod- Support Payments) Amendment Deter- ucts) Orders 2005 [F2005L02703]*. mination 2005 (No. 1). Export Control (Fish and Fish Products) Determinations under sections— Orders 2005 [F2005L02705]*. 58B—Defence Determination Export Control (Milk and Milk Prod- 2005/36—2005 Annual review of ucts) Orders 2005 [F2005L02871]*. housing related allowances and Family Law Act— charges. Family Law (Superannuation) Regula- 58H—Defence Force Remuneration tions— Tribunal Determinations Nos— Family Law (Superannuation) 9 of 2005—Specialist Salary (Methods and Factors for Valuing Structure—Legal Officers. Particular Superannuation Interests) 10 of 2005—Specialist Salary Amendment Approval 2005 (No. 6) Structure—Dental Officers. [F2005L02709]*. 11 of 2005—Specialist Salary Family Law (Superannuation) (Pro- Structure—Medical Officers not vision of Information—Woolworths in Specialist Career Structure. Group Superannuation Scheme) De- termination 2005 [F2005L02710]*. Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Act—Diplomatic Privileges and Immuni-
CHAMBER 152 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Select Legislative Instrument 2005 No. 2005/37—Consular Services Ac- 212—Family Law Amendment Rules count Variation and Abolition 2005 2005 (No. 2) [F2005L02687]*. [F2005L02965]*. Financial Management and Accountability 2005/38—Consular Services Special Act— Account Establishment 2005 Adjustments of Appropriations on [F2005L02966]*. Change of Agency Functions— 2005/39—PSS Special Account Direction No. 6 of 2005-2006 Variation 2005 [F2005L02967]*. [F2005L02669]*. 2005/40—CSS Special Account Financial Management and Account- Variation 2005 [F2005L02959]*. ability Determinations— 2005/41—ComSuper Special Ac- 2005/26—Administered Payments count Variation 2005 and Receipts for Other Entities Spe- [F2005L02958]*. cial Account Variation 2005 Net Appropriation Agreements for— [F2005L02964]*. Attorney-General’s Department 2005/27—Australia-China Council [F2005L02458]*. Account Variation and Abolition Australian Taxation Office 2005 [F2005L02950]*. [F2005L02652]*. 2005/28—Australia-China Council Department of Health and Ageing Special Account Establishment 2005 [F2005L02776]*. [F2005L02960]*. Department of the Treasury 2005/29—Australia-France Endow- [F2005L02635]*. ment Account Variation and Aboli- tion 2005 [F2005L02961]*. Federal Court of Australia [F2005L02571]*. 2005/30—Australia-France Endow- ment Special Account Establishment Food Standards Australia New Zealand 2005 [F2005L02951]*. Act—Australia New Zealand Food Stan- dards Code—Amendment No. 81—2005 2005/31—Australia-India Council [F2005L02787]*. Account Variation and Abolition 2005 [F2005L02953]*. Goods and Services Tax Rulings GSTR 2005/4 and GSTR 2005/5. 2005/32—Australia-India Council Special Account Establishment 2005 Hearing Services Administration Act— [F2005L02954]*. Hearing Services Rules of Conduct 2005 [F2005L02728]*. 2005/33—Australia-Indonesia Insti- tute Account Variation and Abolition Higher Education Support Act— 2005 [F2005L02955]*. Commonwealth Grant Scheme Guide- 2005/34—Australia-Indonesia Insti- lines, dated 13 September 2005 tute Special Account Establishment [F2005L02882]*. 2005 [F2005L02956]*. Commonwealth Scholarships Guide- 2005/35—Australia-Korea Founda- lines, dated 5 September 2005 tion Account Variation and Abolition [F2005L02715]*. 2005 [F2005L02962]*. Other Grants Guidelines, dated 3 Sep- 2005/36—Australia-Korea Founda- tember 2005 [F2005L02773]*. tion Special Account Establishment Human Services Legislation Amendment 2005 [F2005L02963]*. Act—Select Legislative Instrument 2005 No. 208—Human Services Legislation
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 153
Amendment (Transfer of Staff) Regula- and (ii), dated 9 September 2005 tions 2005 [F2005L02707]*. [F2005L02888]*. International Organisations (Privileges and Specification of prescribed bodies Immunities) Act—Select Legislative In- for the purposes of regulation 5.43D, strument 2005 No. 210—Asian Develop- dated 8 September 2005 ment Bank (Privileges and Immunities) [F2005L02856]*. Amendment Regulations 2005 (No. 1) Specification of prescribed interna- [F2005L02683]*. tional organisations for the purposes Lands Acquisition Act—Statements de- of regulation 5.34E, dated 8 Septem- scribing property acquired by agreement ber 2005 [F2005L02782]*. for specified public purposes under sec- Military Superannuation and Benefits tions— Act— 40. Military Superannuation and Benefits 125. Amendment Trust Deed 2005 (No. 2) Maritime Transport and Offshore Facilities [F2005L02886]*. Security Act—Select Legislative Instru- Military Superannuation Benefits (Eli- ment 2005 No. 209—Maritime Transport gible Member) Declaration 2005 and Offshore Facilities Security Amend- [F2005L02606]*. ment Regulations 2005 (No. 2) National Health Act— [F2005L02675]*. Arrangement No. PB 27 of 2005— Migration Act— Chemotherapy Pharmaceuticals Access Migration Agents Regulations—MARA Program [F2005L02779]*. Notice— Determinations Nos— MN38-05a of 2005—Migration HIB 15/2005 [F2005L02731]*. Agents (Continuing Professional De- HIB 16/2005 [F2005L02862]*. velopment—Program of Education) [F2005L02723]*. HIB 17/2005 [F2005L02798]*. MN38-05b of 2005—Migration PB 25 of 2005 [F2005L02775]*. Agents (Continuing Professional De- PB 26 of 2005 [F2005L02757]*. velopment—Private Study of Audio, PB 28 of 2005 [F2005L02778]*. Video or Written Material) [F2005L02722]*. National Security Information (Criminal and Civil Proceedings) Act—Select Legis- MN38-05c of 2005—Migration lative Instrument 2005 No. 203—National Agents (Continuing Professional De- Security Information (Criminal and Civil velopment—Attendance at a Semi- Proceedings) Amendment Regulations nar, Workshop, Conference or Lec- 2005 (No. 1) [F2005L02648]*. ture) [F2005L02711]*. Product Rulings— MN38-05g of 2005—Migration Agents (Continuing Professional De- Addenda—PR 2005/46, PR 2005/51 velopment—Pro Bono Activities) and PR 2005/52. [F2005L02725]*. PR 2005/108. Migration Regulations— Remuneration Tribunal Act— Specification of a class of persons Determination 2005/15: Remuneration and for the purposes of paragraph Allowances for Holders of Public Office 1402(3)(a) and addresses for the pur- [F2005L02574]*. poses of subparagraphs 1402(3)(a)(i)
CHAMBER 154 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Research Involving Human Embryos Superannuation Guarantee (Administra- Act—Select Legislative Instrument 2005 tion) Act—Written guidelines for the re- No. 206—Research Involving Human Em- duction of an increase in an employer’s in- bryos Amendment Regulations 2005 (No. dividual superannuation guarantee short- 1) [F2005L02562]*. fall, dated 16 September 2005 Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation [F2005L02718]*. Act— Taxation Determinations— Guide to the Assessment of the Degree Notice of Withdrawal—TD 93/35. of Permanent Impairment (Second edi- TD 2005/29 and TD 2005/35. tion) [F2005L02586]*. Telecommunications (Consumer Protection Revocation of the Guide to the Assess- and Service Standards) Act—Select Legis- ment of the Degree of Permanent Im- lative Instrument 2005 No. 213— pairment (First edition) Telecommunications (Consumer Protection [F2005L02587]*. and Service Standards) (Communications Social Security Act— Fund) Regulations 2005 [F2005L02749]*. Social Security Exempt Lump Sum Therapeutic Goods Act—Conformity As- (Australian Capital Territory Govern- sessment Standards Order No. 1 of 2005 ment’s Community Inclusion and [F2005L02892]*. Household Debt Pilot Project) (DEST) Trade Marks Act—Select Legislative In- Determination 2005 [F2005L02883]*. strument 2005 No. 211—Trade Marks Social Security Exempt Lump Sum Amendment Regulations 2005 (No. 2) (Australian Capital Territory Govern- [F2005L02660]*. ment’s Community Inclusion and Veterans’ Entitlements Act— Household Debt Pilot Project) (DEWR) Instruments 2005 Nos— Determination 2005 [F2005L02662]*. R21—Veterans’ Entitlements (Con- Social Security Exempt Lump Sum tinuous Full-time Service— (Australian Capital Territory Govern- Operation Falconer) Determination ment’s Community Inclusion and [F2005L02668]*. Household Debt Pilot Project) (FaCS) Determination 2005 [F2005L02685]*. R22—Veterans’ Entitlements (Con- tinuous Full-time Service— Social Security Exempt Lump Sum Operation Anode) Determination (New South Wales Aboriginal Trust [F2005L02682]*. Fund Repayment Scheme) (DEST) De- termination 2005 [F2005L02884]*. Repatriation Medical Authority Instru- ments Nos— Social Security Exempt Lump Sum (New South Wales Aboriginal Trust 28 of 2005 [F2005L02743]*. Fund Repayment Scheme) (DEWR) De- 29 of 2005 [F2005L02758]*. termination 2005 [F2005L02661]*. 30 of 2005 [F2005L02759]*. Social Security Exempt Lump Sum Veterans’ Entitlements (Asset-test Ex- (New South Wales Aboriginal Trust empt Income Stream (Market-linked)— Fund Repayment Scheme) (FaCS) De- Payment Factors) Principles 2005 termination 2005 [F2005L02684]*. [F2005L02875]*. Superannuation Act 1976—Select Legisla- Veterans’ Entitlements Income (Exempt tive Instrument 2005 No. 205— Lump Sum—Australia Capital Territory Superannuation (CSS) Former Eligible Government’s Community Inclusion Employees Amendment Regulations 2005 and Household Debt Pilot Project) De- (No. 1) [F2005L02578]*.
CHAMBER Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 155
termination No. R19 of 2005 [F2005L02701]*. Veterans’ Entitlements (Partially Asset- test Exempt Income Stream— Exemption) Principles 2005 [F2005L02876]*. Governor-General’s Proclamations— Commencement of Provisions of Acts Human Services Legislation Amendment Act 2005—Schedule 1; and items 1 and 2 of Schedule 2—1 October 2005 [F2005L02671]*. Maritime Transport Security Amend- ment Act 2005—Items 3 to 14 of Schedule 1—30 September 2005 [F2005L02681]*. National Health Amendment (Prosthe- ses) Act 2005—Schedule 1—31 Octo- ber 2005 [F2005L02548]*. * Explanatory statement tabled with legisla- tive instrument. Indexed Lists of Files The following documents were tabled pursuant to the order of the Senate of 30 May 1996, as amended: Indexed lists of departmental and agency files for the period 1 January to 30 June 2005—Statements of compliance— Australian Agency for International De- velopment (AusAID). Department of Education, Science and Training.
CHAMBER 156 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE The following answers to questions were circulated:
Superannuation Advertising Campaign (Question No. 104) Senator Faulkner asked the Minister representing the Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer, upon notice, on 19 November 2004: (1) What was the additional cost of re-shooting the superannuation co contribution advertising cam- paign when it was decided by the Ministerial Committee on Government Communications that the size of the pig had to be reduced. (2) Who made the decision that a re-shoot was required. (3) Did the print material have to be adjusted; if so, what was the additional cost. Senator Coonan—As the questions deal with matters administered by the Australian Taxa- tion Office, I have asked the Commissioner of Taxation for advice. The advice in relation to the honourable senator’s questions is as follows: The cost of finalising the commercial, following the review by the Ministerial Committee on Govern- ment Communications as is appropriate for Government Communication, was $133,491.30. Print mate- rial did not have to be adjusted. Visit by President and Mrs Bush (Question No. 482) Senator Bob Brown asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice, on 30 March 2005: With reference to the 2003 visit to Australia by President of the United States of America: Were the President and Mrs Bush: (a) subject to normal security x-ray procedures on arrival in Australia and at each city they visited; (b) subject to normal security x-ray procedures on arrival at Parliament House; and (c) were any monitoring devices triggered by the passage of these visitors through the x-ray equip- ment. Senator Ellison—The Attorney-General has provided the following answer to the honour- able senator’s question: (a) State aircraft are exempt from the usual aviation security screening procedures required under the Aviation Security Transport Regulations. As the President and Mrs Bush arrived in Australia on a state aircraft into Defence Establish Fairbairn, they were not subjected to any security x-ray proce- dures. The President and Mrs Bush only visited Canberra while in Australia. (b) President and Mrs Bush were exempt from entry security screening at Parliament House, in accor- dance with normal protocol procedures for a Head of State or Head of Government; their arrival into Parliament House was directly into the Prime Minister’s Courtyard in an official motorcade. (c) Not applicable. Visit by President Hu (Question No. 483) Senator Bob Brown asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice, on 30 March 2005:
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 157
With reference to the 2003 visit to Australia by the Chinese President: Was President Hu: (a) subject to normal security x-ray procedures on arrival in Australia and at each city he visited; (b) subject to normal security x-ray procedures on arrival at Parliament House; and (c) were any monitoring devices triggered by the passage of this visitor through the x-ray equipment. Senator Ellison—The Attorney-General has provided the following answer to the honour- able senator’s question: (a) State aircraft are exempt from the usual aviation security screening procedures required under the Aviation Security Transport Regulations. As President Hu used his own state aircraft while in Aus- tralia he was not subjected to any security x-ray procedures on arrival in Australia or in the cities he visited. (b) President Hu was exempt from entry security screening at Parliament House in accordance with normal protocol procedures for a Head of State or Head of Government; his arrival into Parliament House was directly into the Prime Minister’s Courtyard in an official motorcade. (c) Not applicable. Education, Science and Training: Customer Service (Question Nos 844 and 857) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister representing the Minister for Education, Science and Training, upon notice, on 4 May 2005: (1) For each of the financial years 2000-01 to 2004-05 to date, can a list be provided of customer ser- vice telephone lines, including: (a) the telephone number of each customer service line; (b) whether the number is toll free and open 24 hours; (c) which output area is responsible for the customer service line; and (d) where this call centre is located. (2) For each of the financial years 2000-01 to 2004-05 to date, what was the cost of maintaining the customer service lines. (3) For each of the financial years 2000-01 to 2004-05 to date, can a breakdown be provided of all direct and indirect costs, including: (a) staff costs; (b) infrastructure costs (including maintenance); (c) telephone costs; (d) departmental costs; and (e) any other costs. (4) How many calls have been received, by year, in each year of the customer service line’s operation. Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Education, Science and Training has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) See Attachment 1. (2) 2000-01: $2,329,728.53 2001-02: $2,050,093.01 2002-03: $2,106,167.95 2003-04: $2,450,591.77 2004-05: $2,117,587.63 *to May 05 (3) (a) 2000-01: $1,672,400.00 2001-02: $1,431,900.00 2002-03: $1,504,473.00 2003-04: $1,645,627.00 2004-05: $1,490,467.00 *to May 05
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 158 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
(b) Staffing infrastructure costs are included in staffing costs (3a). Line maintenance costs are included in telephone costs (3c). (c) 2000-01: $657,328.53 2001-02: $618,193.01 2002-03: $601,694.95 2003-04: $804,964.77 2004-05: $627,120.63 *to May 05 (d) Department costs are included in the above figures. (e) Other costs are not reported on. (4) See Attachment 1. See Attachment 2 for Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies details. See Attachment 3 for Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation details.
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 159
Attachment 1 - Department of Education, Science and Training 2000-01 (1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls External Service 1 1300 363 079 Local Call Cost No Service Charter Hotline CSG Canberra 8,143 2 1800 020 086 Toll Free No NOOSR hotline AEI Canberra 6,736 3 1800 639 629 Toll Free No New Apprenticeships Referral Line VET Canberra 84,941 Internal Service 1 1300 367 847 Local Call Cost No New Apprenticeship Support Line VET Canberra 1,139 2 1300 559 655 Local Call Cost No National Framework for Education Task- Executive Canberra 2 force 3 1300 660 052 Local Call Cost No TYIMS Helpdesk VET Canberra 3,210 4 1300 660 054 Local Call Cost No Literacy and Numeracy Schools Canberra 11 5 1800 000 673 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Townsville 168 Townsville 6 1800 000 674 Toll Free No National Training Complaints Hotline VET Canberra 20 7 1800 017 975 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, Cairns I&TG Cairns 1,424 8 1800 018 262 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, SA, Port I&TG Port Augusta 238 Augusta 9 1800 020 108 Toll Free No HECS Hotline Higher Ed Canberra 33,194 10 1800 060 703 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Syd- I&TG Sydney 5,454 ney 11 1800 182 350 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, SA, Ade- I&TG Adelaide 337 laide 12 1800 242 451 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, TAS, Hobart I&TG Hobart 2,898 13 1800 624 309 Toll Free No Youth Roundtable T&Y Canberra 2,928 14 1800 629 331 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Dubbo 1,710 Dubbo
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 160 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
(1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls 15 1800 635 035 Toll Free No Jobs Pathway Programme I&TG Canberra 574 16 1800 640 879 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Wyong 127 Wyong 17 1800 648 635 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Wal- I&TG Walgett 536 gett 18 1800 657 569 Toll Free No Job Placement, Employment and Train- Canberra 7,213 ing 19 1800 659 579 Toll Free No AEI Hotline AEI Canberra 2,500 20 1800 676 112 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Or- I&TG Orange 2,278 ange 21 1800 677 027 Toll Free No Schools Service Point Schools Canberra 8,762 22 1800 800 618 Toll Free No Vocational Educational Training Hotline VET Canberra 535 23 1800 800 821 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, WA, Kunun- I&TG Kununarra 516 arra 24 1800 804 381 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Moree 496 Moree 25 1800 806 263 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, WA, Kal- I&TG Kalgoorlie 395 goorlie 26 1800 808 454 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Toowoomba 1,649 Toowoomba 27 1800 809 820 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Wagga 175 Wagga *We have understood ‘open’ to mean ‘staffed’
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 161
2001-02 (1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls External Service 1 1300 363 079 Local Call Cost No Service Charter Hotline CSG Canberra 7,858 2 1800 020 086 Toll Free No NOOSR hotline AEI Canberra 15,437 3 1800 639 629 Toll Free No New Apprenticeships Referral Line VET Canberra 71,853 Internal Service 1 1300 367 847 Local Call Cost No New Apprenticeship Support Line VET Canberra 955 2 1300 559 655 Local Call Cost No National Framework for Education Task- Executive Canberra 59 force 3 1300 660 052 Local Call Cost No TYIMS Helpdesk VET Canberra 7,305 4 1800 000 671 Toll Free No DEST Information Emergency Line PALG Canberra 66 5 1800 000 673 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Townsville 471 Townsville 6 1800 000 674 Toll Free No National Training Complaints Hotline VET Canberra 304 7 1800 017 975 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, Cairns I&TG Cairns 1,519 8 1800 018 262 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, SA, Port I&TG Port Augusta 194 Augusta 4 1800 020 108 Toll Free No HECS Hotline Higher Ed Canberra 47,900 9 1800 060 703 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Syd- I&TG Sydney 4,790 ney 10 1800 135 143 Toll Free No Jobs Pathway Programme I&TG Canberra 26 11 1800 182 350 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, SA, Adelaide I&TG Adelaide 231 12 1800 242 451 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, TAS, Hobart I&TG Hobart 2,317 13 1800 624 309 Toll Free No Youth Roundtable Y&T Canberra 1,465 14 1800 629 331 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Dubbo 1,596 Dubbo 15 1800 635 035 Toll Free No Jobs Pathway Programme I&TG Canberra 509
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 162 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
(1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls 16 1800 640 879 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Wyong 259 Wyong 17 1800 648 635 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Wal- I&TG Walgett 666 gett 18 1800 657 569 Toll Free No Job Placement, Employment and Train- Canberra 1,925 ing 19 1800 659 579 Toll Free No AEI Hotline AEI Canberra 1,104 20 1800 676 112 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Or- I&TG Orange 1,773 ange 21 1800 677 027 Toll Free No Schools Service Point Schools Canberra 4,104 22 1800 800 618 Toll Free No Vocational Educational Training Hotline VET Canberra 158 23 1800 800 821 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, WA, Kunun- I&TG Kununarra 618 arra 24 1800 804 381 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Moree I&TG Moree 561 25 1800 806 263 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, WA, Kal- I&TG Kalgoorlie 199 goorlie 26 1800 808 454 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Toowoomba 1,055 Toowoomba 27 1800 808 998 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, Victoria I&TG Melbourne 504 28 1800 809 820 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Wagga 202 Wagga *We have understood ‘open’ to mean ‘staffed’
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 163
2002-03 (1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls External Service 1 1300 363 079 Local Call Cost No Service Charter - Complaints Hotline CSG Canberra 5,735 2 1300 367 806 Local Call Cost No Service Charter - Complaints Fax CSG Canberra 26 Hotline 3 1800 020 086 Toll Free No NOOSR hotline AEI Canberra 18,116 4 1800 639 629 Toll Free No New Apprenticeships Referral Line VET Canberra 65,123 Internal Service 1 1300 367 847 Local Call Cost No New Apprenticeship Support Line VET Canberra 1,734 2 1300 559 655 Local Call Cost No National Framework for Education Executive Canberra 527 Taskforce 3 1300 660 052 Local Call Cost No TYIMS Helpdesk VET Canberra 10,429 4 1800 000 671 Toll Free No DEST Information Emergency Line PALG Canberra 64 5 1800 000 673 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Townsville 193 Townsville 6 1800 000 674 Toll Free No National Training Complaints Hotline VET Canberra 216 7 1800 017 975 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Cairns 1,562 Cairns 8 1800 018 262 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, SA, Port I&TG Port Augusta 198 Augusta 9 1800 020 108 Toll Free No HECS Hotline Higher Ed Canberra 14,256 10 1800 060 703 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Sydney 2,815 Sydney 11 1800 064 516 Toll Free No New Apprenticeship Referral Line VET Canberra 612 12 1800 135 143 Toll Free No Jobs Pathway Programme I&TG Canberra 26 13 1800 182 350 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, SA, Ade- I&TG Adelaide 249 laide
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 164 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
(1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls 14 1800 242 451 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, TAS, I&TG Hobart 2,111 Hobart 15 1800 282 882 Toll Free No New Apprenticeships Access Pro- VET Canberra 1,134 gramme 16 1800 629 331 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Dubbo 1,854 Dubbo 17 1800 635 035 Toll Free No Jobs Pathway Programme I&TG Canberra 1,263 18 1800 640 879 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Wyong 15 Wyong 19 1800 648 635 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Walgett 740 Walgett 20 1800 659 579 Toll Free No AEI Hotline AEI Canberra 1,170 21 1800 676 112 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Orange 1,083 Orange 22 1800 677 027 Toll Free No Schools Service Point Schools Canberra 11,386 23 1800 682 704 Toll Free No Radioactive Waste Management Science Canberra 166 24 1800 800 618 Toll Free No BITES (IT Skills for Older Workers) VET Canberra 3,001 25 1800 800 821 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, WA, I&TG Kununarra 678 Kununarra 26 1800 804 381 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Moree 677 Moree 27 1800 806 263 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, WA, Kal- I&TG Kalgoorlie 103 goorlie 28 1800 808 454 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Toowoomba 1,343 Toowoomba
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 165
(1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls 29 1800 808 998 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, Victoria I&TG Melbourne 326 30 1800 809 820 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Wagga 132 Wagga 31 1800 889 995 Toll Free No Outreach Education Questacon Canberra 5,220 *We have understood ‘open’ to mean ‘staffed’ 2003-04 (1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls External Service 1 1300 363 079 Local Call Cost No Service Charter Hotline CSG Canberra 7,800 2 1800 020 086 Toll Free No NOOSR hotline AEI Canberra 17,469 3 1800 639 629 Toll Free No New Apprenticeships Referral Line VET Canberra 88,998 Internal Service 1 1300 367 847 Local Call Cost No New Apprenticeship Support Line VET Canberra 1,552 2 1300 559 655 Local Call Cost No National Framework for Education Executive Canberra 276 Taskforce 3 1300 660 052 Local Call Cost No TYIMS Helpdesk VET Canberra 18,933 4 1300 782 295 Local Call Cost No Vet Priority Places VET Canberra 274 5 1800 000 673 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Townsville 127 Townsville 6 1800 000 674 Toll Free No National Training Complaints Hotline VET Canberra 231 7 1800 017 975 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Cairns 1,370 Cairns 8 1800 018 262 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, SA, Port I&TG Port Augusta 219 Augusta
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 166 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
(1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls 9 1800 020 108 Toll Free No HECS Hotline Higher Ed Canberra 13,107 10 1800 020 603 Toll Free No Questacon Information Line Questacon Canberra 5,033 11 1800 060 703 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Sydney 1,793 Sydney 12 1800 064 516 Toll Free No New Apprenticeship Referral Line VET Canberra 581 13 1800 182 350 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, SA, Ade- I&TG Adelaide 119 laide 14 1800 242 451 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, TAS, I&TG Hobart 1,944 Hobart 15 1800 282 882 Toll Free No New Apprenticeships Access Pro- VET Canberra 1,220 gramme 16 1800 629 331 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Dubbo 1,290 Dubbo 17 1800 635 035 Toll Free No Jobs Pathway Programme I&TG Canberra 1,634 18 1800 640 879 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Wyong 44 Wyong 19 1800 641 171 Toll Free No Questacon Fax Line Questacon Canberra 3,004 20 1800 648 635 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Walgett 1,002 Walgett 21 1800 655 476 Toll Free No Tutorial Credit Initiative Hotline Schools Canberra 920 22 1800 659 579 Toll Free No AEI Hotline AEI Canberra 1,101 23 1800 676 112 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Orange 1,146 Orange 24 1800 677 027 Toll Free No Schools Service Point Schools Canberra 7,024 25 1800 680 103 Toll Free No Debt Management CSG Canberra 310 26 1800 682 704 Toll Free No Radioactive Waste Management Science Canberra 84 27 1800 800 618 Toll Free No BITES (IT Skills for Older Workers) VET Canberra 2,828
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 167
(1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls 28 1800 800 821 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, WA, I&TG Kununarra 463 Kununarra 29 1800 803 996 Toll Free No SAEG Skills Analysis SAEG Canberra 75 30 1800 804 381 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Moree 1,021 Moree 31 1800 806 263 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, WA, Kal- I&TG Kalgoorlie 36 goorlie 32 1800 808 454 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Toowoomba 913 Toowoomba 33 1800 808 998 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, Victoria I&TG Melbourne 326 34 1800 809 820 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Wagga 146 Wagga 35 1800 889 995 Toll Free No Outreach Education Questacon Canberra 5,220 *We have understood ‘open’ to mean ‘staffed’ 2004-05 (1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls External Service 1 1300 282 882 Local Call Cost No New Apprenticeships Access Programme VET Canberra 450 2 1300 363 079 Local Call Cost No Service Charter Hotline CSG Canberra 7,481 3 1800 020 086 Toll Free No NOOSR hotline AEI Canberra 13,597 4 1800 639 629 Toll Free No New Apprenticeships Referral Line VET Canberra 69,628 Internal Service 1 1300 367 847 Local Call Cost No New Apprenticeship Support Line VET Canberra 982
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 168 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
(1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls 2 1300 559 655 Local Call Cost No National Framework for Education Task- Executive Canberra 513 force 3 1300 660 052 Local Call Cost No TYIMS Helpdesk VET Canberra 15,287 4 1300 782 295 Local Call Cost No Vet Priority Places VET Canberra 773 5 1800 000 673 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Townsville 109 Townsville 6 1800 000 674 Toll Free No National Training Complaints Hotline VET Canberra 249 7 1800 017 975 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, Cairns I&TG Cairns 430 8 1800 018 262 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, SA, Port I&TG Port Augusta 90 Augusta 4 1800 020 108 Toll Free No Higher Education Student Enquiry Line Higher Ed Canberra 18,063 (HECS) 9 1800 020 603 Toll Free No Questacon Information Line Questacon Canberra 3,007 10 1800 060 703 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Syd- I&TG Sydney 771 ney 11 1800 064 516 Toll Free No New Apprenticeship Referral Line VET Canberra 310 12 1800 182 350 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, SA, Adelaide I&TG Adelaide 337 13 1800 242 451 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, TAS, Hobart I&TG Hobart 593 14 1800 629 331 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Dubbo I&TG Dubbo 351 15 1800 635 035 Toll Free No Jobs Pathway Programme I&TG Canberra 1,515 16 1800 640 879 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, I&TG Wyong 6 Wyong 17 1800 641 171 Toll Free No Questacon Fax Line Questacon Canberra 2,263 18 1800 648 635 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Wal- I&TG Walgett 379 gett 19 1800 655 476 Toll Free No Tutorial Credit Initiative Hotline Schools Canberra 12,005 20 1800 659 579 Toll Free No AEI Hotline AEI Canberra 2,057
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 169
(1a) (1b) (1b) (1c) (1c) (1d) (4) No. Service Toll Free Status Open 24 Function Group/State Location Total No. Hours?* of Calls 21 1800 676 112 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Or- I&TG Orange 386 ange 22 1800 677 027 Toll Free No Schools Service Point Schools Canberra 8,523 23 1800 682 704 Toll Free No Radioactive Waste Management Science Canberra 39 24 1800 800 618 Toll Free No BITES (IT Skills for Older Workers) VET Canberra 2,509 25 1800 800 821 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit - National I&TG Canberra/Many 5,427 Number 26 1800 803 996 Toll Free No Parent Survey Schools Canberra 76 27 1800 804 381 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Moree I&TG Moree 333 28 1800 806 263 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, WA, Kal- I&TG Kalgoorlie 19 goorlie 29 1800 808 454 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, QLD, I&TG Toowoomba 350 Toowoomba 30 1800 808 998 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, Victoria I&TG Melbourne 65 31 1800 809 820 Toll Free No Indigenous Education Unit, NSW, Wagga I&TG Wagga 60 32 1800 889 995 Toll Free No Outreach Education Booking Line Questacon Canberra # # data not retrievable from Telco. *We have understood ‘open’ to mean ‘staffed’.
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 170 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Attachment 2 - Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies (1) (a) 1800 730 129 (b) Toll free, open during business hours (9am – 5pm ACT time) (c) Family History (d) Canberra (2) The cost of maintaining the customer service line is approximately $6000 per annum. (3) This figure relates to telephone costs only. (4) This information is not available without reviewing each individual account in detail. Attachment 3 - Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation (1) FY (a) (b) (c) (d) 2001-05 1800 251 572 Toll free 8.30am – 5pm Voicemail ARI Lucas Heights 2001-05 02 9543 4544 (4 8.30am – 5pm Voicemail ARI Lucas Heights Line) 2001-05 02 9543 6511 8.30am – 5pm ARI Lucas Heights fax 2002-05 02 9717 3333 24hr / 7days APS Lucas Heights 2002-05 02 9717 3111 8am -5pm 3663 Switchboard Lucas Heights 2001-05 02 9543 5097 8am – 5pm Switchboard Lucas Heights fax 2003-05 1800 222 120 24hr /7 days Safety Lucas Heights 2004-05 1300 971 700 Local Call 8.30am – 5pm none ACCESS ANSTO Lucas Heights 2004-05 02 9717 3908 8am – 5pm Voicemail ANSTO Technology Lucas Heights Park 2004-05 02 9717 9039 8am – 5pm Voicemail BRAGG Institute Lucas Heights 2004-05 02 9717 3376 8am – 5pm Voicemail AINSE Lucas Heights ARI - Australian Radiopharmaceuticals and Industrials AINSE - Australian Institute of Nuclear Science and Engineering (2) No maintenance figures are available. (3) No such breakdown can be provided. (4) No such breakdown can be provided. Treasury: Customer Service (Question No. 855) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister representing the Minister for Revenue and Assis- tant Treasurer, upon notice, on 4 May 2005: With reference to the department and/or its agencies: (1) For each of the financial years 2000-01 to 2004-05 to date, can a list be provided of customer ser- vice telephone lines, including: (a) the telephone number of each customer service line; (b) whether the number is toll free and open 24 hours; (c) which output area is responsible for the customer service line; and (d) where this call centre is located. (2) For each of the financial years 2000-01 to 2004-05 to date, what was the cost of maintaining the customer service lines.
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 171
(3) For each of the financial years 2000-01 to 2004-05 to date, can a breakdown be provided of all direct and indirect costs, including: (a) staff costs; (b) infrastructure costs (including maintenance); (c) telephone costs; (d) departmental costs; and (e) any other costs. (4) How many calls have been received, by year, in each year of the customer service line’s operation. Senator Coonan—The Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer has provided the fol- lowing answer to the honourable senator’s question: Australian Bureau of Statistics (1) (a) (c), (d) See attached spreadsheet. Information within financial years is not available. (b) All telephone lines are open 24 hours. However, after hours calls will go to either an answer- ing machine or recorded message in the majority of cases. (2) See attached spreadsheet. (3) (b), (c), (e) See attached spreadsheet. (a) (d) Not available. (4) See attached spreadsheet. Telephone Number Toll Free Output Area Call Centre Location 137201 Local Toll Census Field Organisation and ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Coordination connen ACT 2617 137206 Local Toll Census Field Organisation and ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Coordination connen ACT 2618 137219 Local Toll Census Field Organisation and ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Coordination connen ACT 2619 1300135070 Local Toll National Information and Referral 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Service Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1300135211 Local Toll National Information and Referral ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Service connen ACT 2618 1300136865 Local Toll Statistical Publishing Support ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1300137804 Local Toll Census Field Organisation and ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Coordination connen ACT 2618 1300303813 Local Toll Despatch and Collection 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1300363132 Local Toll Dissemination Support 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1300366323 Local Toll Dissemination Support 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1300369880 Local Toll Financial Management 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800007448 Yes Provider Contact Unit 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800010223 Yes Economic Activity Survey ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800010558 Yes Producer Price Indexes ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800010570 Yes Producer Price Indexes ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800018101 Yes South Australian Population Sur- 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, vey Officers 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800020513 Yes Client Surveys Statistical Support ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 172 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Telephone Number Toll Free Output Area Call Centre Location 1800020536 Yes Business Surveys ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800020580 Yes Economy Wide Statistics ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800020635 Yes Retail Surveys ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800030084 Yes Tasmainia Agriculture ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800032156 Yes Dissemination Support 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800032432 Yes Census Field Organisation and 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Coordination Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800059223 Yes Provider Contact Unit 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800059480 Yes Census Development and Evalua- ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- tion connen ACT 2618 1800060050 Yes Health 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800060439 Yes Producer Price Indexes 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800060440 Yes Producer Price Indexes 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800060911 Yes Victorian Population Survey Offi- 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, cers 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800060912 Yes Victorian Population Survey Offi- 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, cers 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800061579 Yes Tasmainia Population Survey 200 Collins St, Hobart TAS 7000 Officers 1800063065 Yes Victorian Service Idustries Survey 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800063204 Yes Victorian Business Register Fax ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800064680 Yes Population Survey Officers 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800065267 Yes Research and Development Statis- ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- tics connen ACT 2618 1800066744 Yes IT Producers ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800069383 Yes National Accounts Research ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800077274 Yes Queensland Transport and Tour- 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 ism 1800077285 Yes Queensland Transport and Tour- 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 ism 1800077327 Yes Queensland Transport and Tour- 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 ism 1800089494 Yes Corporate ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800090353 Yes Census Development and Evalua- 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, tion 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800093310 Yes Western Australian Employer Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Surveys Court, Perth WA 6001
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 173
Telephone Number Toll Free Output Area Call Centre Location 1800093322 Yes Western Australian Population Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Survey Officers Court, Perth WA 6001 1800093327 Yes Western Australian Price Index Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Surveys Court, Perth WA 6001 1800100557 Yes Census Field Organisation and ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Coordination connen ACT 2618 1800101570 Yes Corporate ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800110791 Yes Provider Contact Unit ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800111096 Yes Fuel and Energy Survey 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800111994 Yes Information Inquiries Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Court, Perth WA 6001 1800112011 Yes Pay and Entitlements 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800118119 Yes Provider Contact Unit ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800136081 Yes Victorian Client Management 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800136387 Yes Technology Statistics Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Court, Perth WA 6001 1800138756 Yes Corporate ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800151069 Yes Public Sector Accounts 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800151196 Yes Balance of Payments ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800151913 Yes Test Line Communications Fax ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800155106 Yes Producer Price Indexes ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800159357 Yes IT Security 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800174830 Yes Household Surveys Project 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800180780 Yes Crime and Safety Survey 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800195122 Yes Environment ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800199253 Yes Corporate Services Unit Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Court, Perth WA 6001 1800214391 Yes Agricultural Survey ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800214751 Yes Agricultural Survey Fax ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800220822 Yes Investments and Profit Survey ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800221077 Yes Manufacturing Operations Survey ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800222553 Yes Census Processing Evaluation & ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Administration connen ACT 2618
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 174 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Telephone Number Toll Free Output Area Call Centre Location 1800226545 Yes Population Survey Officers ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800227522 Yes Census Field Organisation and 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, Coordination 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800246112 Yes Population Survey Officers ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800246303 Yes Economy Wide Statistics Fax ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800246878 Yes Economy Wide Statistics ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800249272 Yes Tasmainian Statistical Services 200 Collins St, Hobart TAS 7000 1800300164 Yes Annual Manufacturing Statistics 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800304488 Yes Providers Contact Unit ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800335688 Yes Statistical Services 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800336033 Yes Census Field Organisation and 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Coordination Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800351156 Yes Producer Price Indexes ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800351657 Yes Household Income Fax 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800463377 Yes Agricultural Census Tasmainia 200 Collins St, Hobart TAS 7000 1800555572 Yes Census Field Organisation and ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Coordination connen ACT 2618 1800557555 Yes Census Field Organisation and 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Coordination Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800617509 Yes Population Survey Processing ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800620963 Yes Corporate 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 1800621976 Yes Darwin Population Survey Offi- 7th Floor AANT House, 81 Smith St, cers Darwin NT 0800 1800622235 Yes Provider Contact Unit Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Court, Perth WA 6001 1800623273 Yes Victorian Education Services 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800624225 Yes Tasmainia Population Survey 200 Collins St, Hobart TAS 7000 Officers 1800624324 Yes Queensland Population Survey 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 Officers 1800624562 Yes Victorian Business Register 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800626262 Yes Household Surveys Project 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800626469 Yes Victorian Business Register 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800629625 Yes New South Wales Business Sur- 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney veys Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800631150 Yes ACT Classification and Geological ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Survey connen ACT 2618 1800631681 Yes Census Field Organisation and 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Coordination Square, Syndey NSW 2000
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 175
Telephone Number Toll Free Output Area Call Centre Location 1800633216 Yes Aboriginal and Torres Strait Is- 7th Floor AANT House, 81 Smith St, lander Statistics Darwin NT 0800 1800633667 Yes Business Demography Statistics ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800635561 Yes Corporate ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800636780 Yes Population Survey Officers 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800636809 Yes Queensland Population Survey 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 Officers 1800637767 Yes Investments and Profit Survey 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800638948 Yes Victorian Business Register 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800640830 Yes Victorian Business Register Fax 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800641189 Yes Census Field Organisation and 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 Coordination 1800642149 Yes Investments and Profit Survey 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800642324 Yes Victorian Business Register 5th Floor Commercial Union Tower, 485 LaTrobe St, Melbourne VIC 3000 1800643777 Yes Western Australian Population Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Survey Officers Court, Perth WA 6001 1800647011 Yes Tasmainia Agriculture 200 Collins St, Hobart TAS 7000 1800650316 Yes Building and Construction 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800650829 Yes Corporate ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800651552 Yes Corporate ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800654421 Yes Environment Management ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800654467 Yes Victorian Education Services 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 1800654937 Yes Agricultural Census Tasmainia ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800655436 Yes Marketing ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800658033 Yes Survey of Motor Vehicle Use 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 1800661366 Yes Population Survey Officers Help ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Line connen ACT 2618 1800673050 Yes Queensland Information Inquiries 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 1800675125 Yes Graduate Recruitment ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800675754 Yes Annual Manufacturing Statistics 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800676613 Yes Corporate ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800676646 Yes Population Census Product Devel- ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- opment connen ACT 2618 1800677903 Yes Environment 200 Collins St, Hobart TAS 7000 1800678770 Yes Victorian Business Services ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 176 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Telephone Number Toll Free Output Area Call Centre Location 1800679731 Yes Investments and Profit Survey 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800686243 Yes Agricultural Census Tasmainia 200 Collins St, Hobart TAS 7000 1800686331 Yes IT Information Centre ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800687057 Yes Retail Survey 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800735060 Yes Provider Contact Unit ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800756030 Yes Building and Construction 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800801520 Yes Agricultural Census ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800801524 Yes Industrial Disputes Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Court, Perth WA 6001 1800802297 Yes South Australian Population Sur- 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, vey Officers 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800802732 Yes Queensland Population Survey 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 Officers 1800802910 Yes Construction Industry Service 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800802928 Yes Corporate ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800805017 Yes Building and Construction 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800805210 Yes Statistical Consultancy 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800805797 Yes Western Australian Employer Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Surveys Court, Perth WA 6001 1800805914 Yes Population Survey Officers ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800806019 Yes Longitudinal Survey of Australian ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- Children connen ACT 2618 1800806256 Yes Investments and Profit Survey ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800806415 Yes Queensland Health 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 1800806825 Yes National Centre for Culture and 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, Recreation Statistics 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800807282 Yes Population Survey Officers ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800809168 Yes Annual Manufacturing Statistics 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800809504 Yes Corporate 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 1800809767 Yes Technology Statistics Level 15 Exchange Plaza, Sherwood Court, Perth WA 6001 1800811017 Yes Building and Construction 7th Floor East Commonwealth Centre, 55 Currie St, Adelaide SA 5000 1800812925 Yes Business Register 200 Collins St, Hobart TAS 7000 1800813025 Yes Population Survey Officers 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800813939 Yes Census Marketing ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 177
Telephone Number Toll Free Output Area Call Centre Location 1800815397 Yes Marketing ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800815744 Yes Queensland Labour Force Survey 313 Adelaide St, Brisbane QLD 4000 1800816851 Yes Mining Surveys 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800818909 Yes Sport, Recreation and Gambling ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800819172 Yes Retail Surveys ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800882015 Yes Census Processing Evaluation & 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Administration Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800882362 Yes Mining Provider Contact Unit ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618 1800882430 Yes Manufacturing Statistics Devel- 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney opment Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800882547 Yes Retail Survey 5th Floor St Andrews House, Sydney Square, Syndey NSW 2000 1800999310 Yes Agricultural Census ABS House, 45 Benjamin Way, Bel- connen ACT 2618
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 178 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Cost Of Maintaining the Customer Service Lines Sum of Charge Financial Year Charge Name Level 1 2000/2001 2001/2002 2002/2003 2003/2004 2004/2005 Grand Total SERVICE AND EQUIPMENT $44,395.47 $36,305.62 $36,990.89 $38,165.15 $32,745.00 $188,602.13 Grand Total $44,395.47 $36,305.62 $36,990.89 $38,165.15 $32,745.00 $188,602.13 Call Usage for Customer Service Lines Sum of Charge Financial Year Charge Name Level 2 Charge Name Level 3 2000/2001 2001/2002 2002/2003 2003/2004 2004/2005 Grand Total FREECALL 1800/ONE8 FREECALL 1800/ONE8 $162,089.68 $212,573.90 $152,864.67 $163,093.31 $1,197.20 $691,818.76 LOCCL $3,454.56 $3,454.56 MOBCL $1,410.92 $1,410.92 NATNL $38,904.51 $38,904.51 FREECALL 1800/ONE8 Total $162,089.68 $212,573.90 $152,864.67 $163,093.31 $44,967.19 $735,588.75 PRIORITY 1300 CALLS FROM MOBILES $1,149.87 $1,403.77 $1,221.15 $1,239.15 $524.13 $5,538.07 LOCAL (CHARGED) $117.52 $140.43 $212.10 $379.98 $113.49 $963.52 NATIONAL $0.50 $23,597.57 $23,598.07 NON-LOCAL $109,205.45 $136,604.01 $100,329.18 $91,874.18 $7,698.00 $445,710.82 PRIORITY 1300 Total $110,472.84 $138,148.21 $101,762.43 $93,493.81 $31,933.19 $475,810.48 Grand Total $272,562.52 $350,722.11 $254,627.10 $256,587.12 $76,900.38 $1,211,399.23 Other Charges & Credits for Customer Service Lines Sum of Charge Financial Year Charge Name Level 1 2000/2001 2001/2002 2002/2003 2003/2004 2004/2005 Grand Total DIRECTORY CHARGES $1,414.24 $3.17 $1,417.41 DISCOUNT -$38,617.37 -$54,070.33 -$34,454.89 -$37,567.39 -$1,998.01 -$166,707.99 OTHER CHARGES AND CREDITS -$1,737.01 $620.00 $1,400.00 $4,545.00 -$1,684.63 $3,143.36 Grand Total -$38,940.14 -$53,447.16 -$33,054.89 -$33,022.39 -$3,682.64 -$162,147.22
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 179
Number of Calls Made to Customer Service Lines Sum of Quantity Financial Year Service Number 2000/2001 2001/2002 2002/2003 2003/2004 2004/2005 Grand Total 137219 257 257 1300135070 92011 83595 70447 59854 56610 362517 1300135211 1335 1899 2237 1908 1235 8614 1300136865 765 996 2224 1666 638 6289 1300137804 2282 29185 2134 568 83 34252 1300303813 986 13213 20953 35152 1300363132 30 30 1300366323 8344 5400 4117 3220 3002 24083 1300369880 129 129 1800007448 1312 16 1328 1800010223 8588 9510 18098 1800010558 4 913 545 1462 1800010570 3145 2226 5371 1800018101 732 834 948 1054 835 4403 1800020513 20 11 31 1800020536 3643 4215 2948 5913 2883 19602 1800020580 4820 5971 7971 449 55 19266 1800020635 9628 9370 12042 16395 8006 55441 1800030084 416 490 380 287 194 1767 1800032156 31 1 32 1800032432 546 1489 2035 1800059223 229 2147 2376 1800059480 51 51 1800060050 244 187 226 174 113 944 1800060439 1676 1791 1580 236 148 5431 1800060440 563 578 422 20 1583 1800060911 986 1069 1735 1178 1061 6029 1800060912 664 926 327 1123 613 3653 1800061579 295 516 253 645 94 1803 1800063065 16 16 1800063204 385 143 208 143 42 921 1800064680 1943 1277 443 1667 782 6112 1800065267 851 916 800 1182 10 3759 1800066744 3269 3387 767 652 440 8515 1800069383 12 14 7 2 35 1800077274 5005 2201 3951 6131 777 18065 1800089494 8 8 1800090353 1760 1760 1800093310 20235 17605 10588 9615 3423 61466 1800093322 216 456 381 378 127 1558 1800093327 8230 7370 7163 8643 5136 36542 1800100557 3 3 3 9 1800110791 4457 3710 8167 1800111096 2139 3938 6077 1800111994 34 15 49 1800112011 1372 2975 1086 81 5514
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 180 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Sum of Quantity Financial Year Service Number 2000/2001 2001/2002 2002/2003 2003/2004 2004/2005 Grand Total 1800118119 3490 912 4402 1800136081 229 168 64 84 51 596 1800136387 1124 507 220 118 1049 3018 1800138756 6 6 1800151069 7 7 1800151196 794 505 512 760 661 3232 1800151913 970 1257 584 665 5 3481 1800155106 44 198 7 249 1800159357 270 361 291 922 1800174830 1 1 1800180780 145 52 197 1800195122 176 176 1800199253 299 415 201 52 29 996 1800214391 21 21 1800214751 97 97 1800220822 159 355 373 615 361 1863 1800221077 3377 3721 5027 5389 6353 23867 1800222553 1 402 8 411 1800226545 80 120 7 5 3 215 1800227522 11 121930 121941 1800246112 7 1 3 4 2 17 1800246303 1334 1551 1446 203 17 4551 1800249272 1 1 1800300164 899 544 450 1893 1800304488 1535 1535 1800335688 48 48 1800336033 348 924 1272 1800351156 32 28 17 11 3 91 1800351657 41 37 22 4 104 1800463377 77 27 104 1800555572 28 207 235 1800557555 3379 11464 14843 1800617509 17 615 1 633 1800620963 450 464 389 428 313 2044 1800621976 1071 748 980 741 66 3606 1800622235 85 17 63 21 3936 4122 1800623273 397 715 469 419 246 2246 1800624225 1878 1586 1521 883 531 6399 1800624324 83 42 24 34 183 1800624562 1480 575 58 43 728 2884 1800626262 901 293 1194 1800626469 727 79 5 811 1800629625 5660 280 80 6020 1800631150 313 220 233 203 71 1040 1800631681 864 864 1800633216 381 326 413 424 179 1723 1800636780 25 16 27 9 14 91 1800636809 1280 1291 6962 9251 7571 26355 1800637767 8 8 1800638948 116 12 83 101 45 357 1800640830 317 130 2 4 7 460 1800641189 2025 1479 3504
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 181
Sum of Quantity Financial Year Service Number 2000/2001 2001/2002 2002/2003 2003/2004 2004/2005 Grand Total 1800642149 5158 14040 18161 15789 13184 66332 1800642324 506 734 282 1125 331 2978 1800643777 414 467 532 554 1916 3883 1800647011 6399 22386 9280 5852 5096 49013 1800650316 16484 13375 11562 13397 11134 65952 1800651552 315 238 55 394 542 1544 1800654421 1765 1878 972 677 1255 6547 1800654467 1486 1405 1015 357 166 4429 1800654937 1536 1455 1541 749 78 5359 1800655436 983 434 1545 666 133 3761 1800658033 10802 10347 7326 28475 1800661366 62 975 1372 1123 650 4182 1800673050 550 136 686 1800675125 4233 4277 2704 1889 735 13838 1800675754 767 567 173 1 1508 1800676646 3601 2661 7336 5951 2443 21992 1800677903 7 157 4195 4217 55 8631 1800678770 5196 4083 3521 1054 510 14364 1800679731 2483 158 10 6 3 2660 1800686243 71 2822 864 79 462 4298 1800686331 25639 20798 21279 23812 5072 96600 1800687057 3 3 1800735060 1930 5299 7229 1800756030 65 99 164 1800801520 49 30 25 190 10 304 1800801524 88 1080 1113 545 210 3036 1800802297 438 748 242 767 437 2632 1800802732 399 173 248 1216 662 2698 1800802910 167 7 174 1800802928 62 21 181 4 268 1800805017 1500 1494 2086 2199 1248 8527 1800805210 142 56 198 1800805797 3878 3577 2679 9576 2378 22088 1800805914 1 280 575 9 2 867 1800806019 148 7 155 1800806256 3287 4788 5654 8513 5260 27502 1800806415 757 574 509 640 438 2918 1800806825 16 12 2 5 106 141 1800809168 255 325 661 840 802 2883 1800809504 3667 39 25 184 38 3953 1800809767 4 57 7601 5341 1062 14065 1800811017 2424 1837 1883 1941 1747 9832 1800812925 403 1809 882 10 17 3121 1800813025 1901 2192 2196 2525 3022 11836 1800813939 422 551 1197 302 91 2563 1800815397 108 22 130 1800816851 668 416 492 556 384 2516 1800818909 3841 3709 486 2414 5272 15722 1800819172 6545 5747 3897 289 52 16530 1800882015 2 2 5 9 1800882362 1054 826 587 1013 968 4448
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 182 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Sum of Quantity Financial Year Service Number 2000/2001 2001/2002 2002/2003 2003/2004 2004/2005 Grand Total 1800882430 5 5 1800999310 1563 1250 854 16 93 3776 Grand Total 321300 470558 289439 304997 226569 1612863 Australian Competition & Consumer Commission (1) (a) Customer Service Telephone lines are as follows: Service Number ACCC Infocentre 1300 302 502 TTY 1300 303 609 Indigenous line 1300 303 143 (b) Calls to these numbers are charged at the rate of the cost of a local call. The call centre is open Monday to Friday from 8:30am to 6:00pm. (c) Compliance Strategies Branch (d) 470 Northbourne Avenue, Dickson, ACT (2) The total cost of the lines are as follows: (Optus Accounts) Year Cost $ 2000-01 236,574 2001-02 96,067 2002-03 71,948 2003-04 52,069 2004-05 59,924 (3) The cost breakdown for the information centre is as follows: Cost 2000-01 $ 2001-02 $ 2002-03 $ 2003-04 $ 2004-05 $ Salaries N/A 1,133,192 1,133,308 1,187,091 1,281,314 Travel 7,876 5,226 4,378 3,992 Fixed 135,807 186,229 94,632 75,538 Other 8,783 8,538 39,78 1,323 Total 1,285,658 1,333,301 1,290,079 1,362,168 Costing details for 2000-01 are not available to due changes in organisational structure and changes in financial reporting systems. (4) The number of calls received for each year is as follows: Year Number of calls received 2000-01 123,812 2001-02 87,078 2002-03 65,349 2003-04 54,773 2004-05 57,308 Australian Prudential & Regulation Authority (1) (a) The customer service telephone line used until 14 October 2001 (which continued to be in use for 3 months to provide callers with the new number) was 131060. The current number is 1300 131060. (b) Both numbers are toll free numbers. Operating hours are 8am – 6pm Monday to Friday.
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 183
(c) Secretary Group (d) Canberra (2) 2000-01: $126,000; 2001-02: $185,000; 2002-03: $120,000; 2003-04: $106,000; 2004-05 (year to date April): $53,000 (3) The very detailed information sought in the honourable senator’s question is not readily available in consolidated form and it would be a major task to collect and assemble it. The practice of suc- cessive governments has been not to authorise the expenditure of time and money involved in as- sembling such information on a general basis. (4) 2000-01:169,025; 2001-2002: 136,418; 2003-2004: 119,668; 2004-May 2005: 106,838. Australian Office of Financial Management The AOFM does not have a customer service line. Australian Securities and Investments Commission Financial year 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 YTD 2004-05 ASIC Enquiry Line Phone number 03 5177 3988 03 5177 03 5177 3988 03 5177 3988 03 5177 3988 3988 Toll free? No No No No No Calls received #see below #see below 529,000 719,000 560,000 Hours of operation Business hrs Business hrs Business hrs Business hrs Business hrs Output area ASIC, PIP * ASIC, PIP * ASIC, PIP * ASIC, PIP * ASIC, PIP * Location Traralgon, Vic Traralgon, Traralgon, Vic Traralgon, Vic Traralgon, Vic Vic Staff costs 1,030,988 1,341,816 1,569,563 2,322,740 2,075,922
Infoline Phone number 1300 300 630 1300 300 1300 300 630 1300 300 630 1300 300 630 630 Toll free? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Calls received #see below #see below 143,000 144,000 140,000 Hours of operation Business hrs Business hrs Business hrs Business hrs Business hrs Output area PIP PIP PIP PIP PIP Location Traralgon, Vic Traralgon, Traralgon, Vic Traralgon, Vic Traralgon, Vic Vic Staff costs 549,552 581,577 705,736 615,375 541,915
#total calls Enquiry & 765,000 710,000 672,000 863,000 700,000 Infolines
Enquiry and Infoline - Non Salary Costs Infrastructure costs Do not collect costs at this level Telephone costs - Inbound 425,358 373,202 459,517 444,883 277,231 & Outbound and line costs Departmental costs Do not collect costs at this level Any other costs 27,012 10,441 23,404 59,606 13,198 PABX Maintence Contracts 27,405 25,313 13,563 61,871 38,865 * PIP = Public Information Program
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 184 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Australian Taxation Office The data in this report comprehensively covers the ATO’s publicly listed customer service lines**. The organisational structure of the ATO means that the information requested cannot be cut by each phone number. The closest to that which can be provided is to cut the information by Business Line. Within each Business Line we have listed the major customer service line numbers handled by that business line. In this report Infrastructure Cost shows the cost of providing telephony infrastructure (ie all equipment and services provided through the NEC managed service). Telephone Costs shows inbound and out- bound call costs incurred with the carrier (ie Optus and Telstra). Staff Costs represents all labour costs including salary and add-on costs (such as leave, super etc). Other Costs includes all remaining costs (such as supplier costs, contractors, travel, stationery etc). All phone lines operate nationally from 8am to 6pm Monday to Friday except for 132865 and 137226 which operate 24 hours per day, 7 days per week providing access to self-help phone services. These lines are indicated by (*)
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 185
Australian Taxation Office Service Data 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 (YTD - Apr 05) Small Business Telephony Local call to client (13, 132866, 132478, 132870, 132866, 132478, 132870, 132866, 132478, 132870, 132866, 132478, 132866, 132478, 132870, 1300 numbers) 137226*, 131142, 137286, 137226*, 131142, 137286, 137226*, 137286, 1300-130248 132870,137226*, 137286, 137226*, 137286, 1300- 1300-130248 1300-130248 1300-130248 130248, 1300 139 051 Free call to client (1800 1800-199010, 1800- 1800-199010, 1800-060063 1800-199010, 1800-060063 1800-199010, 1800- 1800-199010, 1800-060063 numbers) 060063 060063 24 Hrs No No No No No Output Area SB SB SB SB SB Location(s) BCC, MCC, Mel, Pen, BCC, MCC, Mel, Pen, Nor, BCC, MCC, Mel, Pen, Nor, BCC, MCC, Mel, Par, Pen, BCC, MCC, Mel, Par, Pen, Nor, Chm, Par, Chm, Hur, Chm, Par, Chm, Hur, Cnn, Liv UMG Nor, UMG Nor Cnn, Liv Staff Cost na $46,480,121 $55,349,256 $31,993,493 $33,883,446 Infrastructure Cost $4,432,054 $5,521,319 $6,230,684 $4,857,220 $2,715,579 Telephone Cost $10,054,945 $4,944,554 $2,904,883 $3,402,214 $2,081,040 Other Cost(s) na $11,925,954 $15,066,068 $5,562,136 $563,258 Total Costs $14,486,998 $68,871,947 $79,550,891 $45,815,062 $39,243,324 Calls Received (‘000) 7,273 6,615 4,909 4,100 2,834 Personal Tax Telephony Local call to client (13, 132861, 132862, 132865* 132861, 132862, 132865*, 132861, 132862, 132863, 132861, 132862, 132865*, 132861, 132862, 132865*, 1300 numbers) 1300-362829, 1300-650286, 132865*, 137286, 1300-362829, 137286, 1300-362829, 137286, 1300-362829, 1300- 1300-720093 1300-650286, 1300-720094 1300-650286, 1300- 650286, 1300-720096 720095 Free call to client (1800 numbers) 24 Hrs No No No No No Output Area Ptax Ptax Ptax Ptax Ptax Location(s) BXH, MPO, Can, Par, BXH, MPO, Can, Par, UMG, BXH, MPO, Can, Par, UMG, BXH, MPO, Can, Par, BXH, MPO, Par, UMG, UMG, Way, Nor Way, Nor Way, Nor UMG, Way, Nor Way, Nor
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 186 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Service Data 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 (YTD - Apr 05) Staff Cost $13,267,000 $21,589,000 $25,444,000 $25,040,000 $17,914,000 Infrastructure Cost $3,443,023 $3,799,402 $5,037,601 $4,815,755 $3,992,650 Telephone Cost $7,811,142 $3,402,511 $2,348,642 $3,373,170 $3,059,703 Other Cost(s) $644,835 $7,287,088 $6,680,757 $5,587,074 $4,069,647 Total Costs $25,166,000 $36,078,000 $39,511,000 $38,816,000 $29,036,000 Calls Received (‘000) 5,650 5,025 3,969 4,065 3,577 Operations Telephony Local call to client (13, 131142, 132550, 132865*, 131142, 132550, 132865*, 131142, 132550, 132865*, 131142,132550, 132865*, 1300 numbers) 137226* 137226*, 137286 137226*, 137286 137226*, 137286, 1300- 130025, 1300-130901, 130- 130926, 1300-137286, 1300- 360221, 1300-139028 Free call to client (1800 numbers) 24 Hrs No No No No Output Area Ops Ops Ops Ops Location(s) Hur, Syd, New, Wol, Tow, Ch, Hur, Syd, New, Wol, Tow, Ch, Hur, Syd, New, Wol, Tow, Hob, BXH, Dan, MPO, Alb, Hob, BXH, Dan, MPO, Alb, Hob, BXH, Dan, MPO, Alb, Par, Ch, Hob, BXH, Dan, Par, Pen, Chm, UMG, Way, Par, Pen, Chm, UMG, Way, Pen, Chm, UMG, Way, Nor MPO, Alb, Par, Pen, Chm, Nor Nor UMG, Way, Nor Staff Cost $26,789,723 $35,501,398 $36,716,278 $31,855,000 Infrastructure Cost $2,003,200 $3,689,672 $2,754,399 $2,481,953 Telephone Cost $1,793,942 $1,720,207 $1,929,304 $1,902,004 Other Cost(s) $8,753,934 $11,222,647 $10,601,937 $11,667,277 Total Costs $39,340,799 $52,133,924 $52,001,918 $47,906,234 Calls Received (‘000) 2,400 2,908 2,326 2,148 Superannuation Telephony Local call to client (13, 131020 131020 131020 131020, 132864, 132865*, 1300 numbers) 1300-651221, 1300-139027
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 187
Service Data 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 (YTD - Apr 05) Free call to client (1800 numbers) 24 Hrs No No No No Output Area Super Super Super Super Location(s) UMG, Hob UMG, Hob UMG, Hob UMG, Hob, MPO, MCC, Par Staff Cost $3,930,900 $5,056,800 $5,880,400 $7,555,214 Infrastructure Cost $580,928 $896,081 $937,088 $689,067 Telephone Cost $520,243 $417,773 $656,378 $528,055 Other Cost(s) $654,145 $209,583 $217,720 $13,810 Total Costs $5,686,216 $6,580,237 $7,691,586 $8,786,146
Calls Received (‘000) 696 707 791 624 Excise Telephony Local call to client (13, 1300-657162 1300-657162 1300-657162 1300-657162 1300-657162, 137226* 1300 numbers) Free call to client (1800 numbers) 24 Hrs No No No No No Output Area Ex Ex Ex Ex Ex/SB Location(s) Hob, Wol Hob, Wol Hob, Wol Hob, Wol Hob, Mel Staff Cost $1,317,663 $1,482,017 $1,495,210 $1,677,709 $706,408 Infrastructure Cost $124,924 $95,152 $145,962 $158,748 $120,751 Telephone Cost $283,413 $85,212 $68,051 $111,194 $92,535 Other Cost(s) $345,027 $525,303 $530,499 $486,778 $110,598 Total Costs $2,071,027 $2,187,684 $2,239,722 $2,434,429 $1,030,292 Calls Received (‘000) 205 114 116 135 92
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 188 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Glossary BSL Business Service Line Dan Dandenong Tow Townsville SB Small Business (BSL) Hob Hobart UMG Upper Mount Gravatt PT Personal Tax (BSL) Hur Hurstville Way Waymouth Super Superannuation (BSL) Liv Liverpool Wol Wollongong Ex Excise (BSL) MCC Melbourne (Queen St) Mel Melbourne (Casselden Pl) Alb Albury MPO Moonee Pond BCC Burnie New Newcastle BXH Box Hill Nor Northbidge Can Canberra Par Paramatta Chm Chermside Pen Penrith Cnn Cannington Syd Sydney (Centrepoint
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 189
Corporations and Markets Advisory Committee (1) Nil (2) NA (3) NA (4) NA Inspector-General of Taxation (1) Nil (2) NA (3) NA (4) NA National Competition Council (1) Nil (2) NA (3) NA (4) NA Productivity Commission (1) Nil (2) N/A (3) N/A (4) N/A Treasury The very detailed information sought in the honourable senator’s question is not readily available in consolidated form and it would be a major task to collect and assemble it. The practice of successive governments has been not to authorise the expenditure of time and money involved in assembling such information on a general basis. Minister for Education, Science and Training (Question Nos 879 and 892) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister representing the Minister for Education, Science and Training, upon notice, on 6 May 2005: For each of the financial years 2000-01, 2001-02, 2002-03, 2003-04 and 2004-05 to date, can details of all privately or commercially sponsored travel, including cost and sponsor for: (a) the minister; (b) the Minister’s family; (c) the Minister’s personal staff; and (d) officers of the Minister’s department. Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Education, Science and Training has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question; (a) and (b) The Special Minister of State will provide the answer to this part of the question. (c) and (d) Provision of information on this matter would involve the detailed and extensive interroga- tion of the Department’s records. Information of this nature is not systematically recorded in a readily accessible form. The Ministers are not prepared to authorise the significant diversion of resources.
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 190 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Mammograms (Question No. 899) Senator Allison asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health and Ageing, upon notice, on 10 May 2005: In relation to access to free breast screening for all Australian women: (1) How many Australian women living in the Indian Ocean Territories are eligible for free screening mammograms through the BreastScreen Australia program. (2) (a) Can figures be provided on the proportion of women in the Indian Ocean Territories who have used the BreastScreen Australia program in each of the past 5 years; and (b) how does this compare to the proportion of eligible women in mainland Australia who have accessed the BreastScreen Australia program. (3) What arrangements does the Government have in place to provide local access to the necessary equipment and staff so that women living in the Indian Ocean Territories have the same access to screening mammograms as women living in mainland Australia. (4) What plans does the Government have to ensure that women living in the Indian Ocean Territories are able to access the BreastScreen Australia program. Senator Patterson—The Minister for Health and Ageing has provided the following an- swer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) Women aged 50-69 years are the target group for breast cancer screening. According to the Austra- lian Bureau of Statistics Estimated Resident Population figures for 2003, as at 30 June 2003 there were 107 women in this age range living in Christmas Island, and 59 women in this age range liv- ing in the Cocos Islands. While not specifically targeted, women aged 40-49 years or over 70 years are also eligible to attend BreastScreen Australia services. As at 30 June 2003, there were 137 women aged 40 to 49 and 7 women aged 70 years or older living in Christmas Island. At the same point in time, there were 52 women aged 40 to 49 and 9 women aged 70 years or over in the Cocos Islands. (2) (a) Over the period from 1 January 2000 to 31 December 2004, 61 screening services were pro- vided to Indian Ocean Territory women by BreastScreen WA or BreastScreen NT. In 2005, Breast- Screen WA has provided 6 screening services to date to Indian Ocean Territory women. It is com- mon practice for residents of the Indian Ocean Territories to give mainland addresses when access- ing health services in Western Australia, so any records of health service usage would be conserva- tive. (b) Over the two year period 2001-2002, 57.1% of Australian women in the target age range of 50-69 years accessed BreastScreen Australia services. The recorded participation rate for the Indian Ocean Territories over the two year period 2003-2004 was 14.3%. (3) and (4) Women living in the Indian Ocean Territories have access to mammography services off island, both when a screening mammogram is requested by an asymptomatic woman in the eligible age group or when a diagnostic mammogram is clinically indicated. The Minister for Territories has recently announced that mammography screening will be provided on island in the future. In the next six months the Indian Ocean Territories Health Service will purchase mammography screening equipment which will be operated as a BreastScreen Australia service by a clinical team from Western Australia every two years. The Indian Ocean Territory Health Service will be working with the Western Australian Health Department and BreastScreen Australia to provide information to raise breast cancer awareness and
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 191
to provide a service that meets the same standard of BreastScreen Australia services elsewhere in the country. BreastScreen Australia is the national mammographic screening program. It is a joint initiative of the Australian, state and territory governments. The states and territories, and in this case, the In- dian Ocean Territories Health Service, provide the screening and assessment services and develop local level protocols. The Department of Health and Ageing coordinates policy development, qual- ity improvement and assurance, monitoring and evaluation at the national level. Superannuation (Question No. 971) Senator Bob Brown asked the Minister representing the Minister for Revenue and Assis- tant Treasurer, upon notice, on 21 June 2005: With reference to early access to superannuation funds under the financial hardship provisions: (1) Why are full-time students who receive the Youth Allowance not eligible to access their funds to assist them to meet their study and other living expenses? (2) Can this anomaly be addressed by reclassifying the Youth Allowance (for tertiary students), includ- ing it in the list of income support payments which would entitle a recipient to early access to su- perannuation funds for essential living expenses? Senator Coonan—The Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer has provided the fol- lowing answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) There are substantial taxation concessions for superannuation in order to promote self-provision for retirement and restrictions are placed on the early withdrawal of superannuation savings to ensure that they provide for genuine retirement income. There are two criteria that an applicant must satisfy in order to be eligible for early release of su- perannuation benefits on severe financial hardship grounds. The applicant must be able to show that they have been in receipt of a qualifying Commonwealth income support payment for a con- tinuous 26-week period, and must also satisfy the trustee that they are unable to meet reasonable and immediate family living expenses. Youth Allowance payments do not constitute a qualifying Commonwealth income support pay- ment. Youth Allowance benefits (for students studying on a full-time basis) are designed to assist in meeting the costs of undertaking a course of study, and are not intended to provide full financial support to the recipient. In general, a Youth Allowance recipient’s income would be supplemented through family support, prior savings and part-time or casual employment. Moreover, recipients of Youth Allowance make a voluntary decision to pursue a course of study having regard to both the immediate and future financial consequences of doing so. (2) The Government does not consider that Youth Allowance payments should be included in the list of income support payments that would entitle the recipient to early access to their superannuation benefits. The existing early release mechanisms strike a balance between the need for superannua- tion benefits (which receive significant taxation concessions) to be preserved for retirement pur- poses against the need for access to be provided where superannuation fund members experience personal hardship. Education, Science and Training: Grants (Question Nos 993 and 1006) Senator O’Brien asked the Minister representing the Minister for Education, Science and Training and the Minister representing the Minister for Vocational and Technical Education, upon notice, on 24 June 2005:
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 192 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
For each of the financial years 2001 02, 2002 03, 2003 04 and 2004 05, has the Minister, the department or any agency or statutory authority for which the Minister is responsible, made grants or other pay- ments to business organisations and/or associations, including but not necessarily limited to peak em- ployer groups; if so, can information be provided for each grant or other payment including: (a) the name and address of the recipient organisation; (b) the quantum and purpose of the payment; (c) the name of the program under which the grant or other payment was funded; (d) who approved the grant or other payment; and (e) whether the grant or payment was successfully acquitted; if so, when; if not, can details be provided, including action taken to recover the grant or other payment. Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Education, Science and Training has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: The Minister is not prepared to authorise the diversion of significant resources required to prepare a response to the question. The response would involve identifying and investigating potentially thou- sands of business organisations and associations and peak employer groups to see if the Portfolio de- partment or agencies have made a payment over the last four financial years. For payments that are identified, further investigation then has to be undertaken to provide the required information sought in the question. The parameters of the question are too broad and open ended. Health and Ageing: Service Providers (Question No. 1017) Senator McLucas asked the Minister representing the Minister for Ageing, upon notice, on 5 July 2005: (1) For the contracts which end on 30 June 2005, can a list be provided of each service provider, the area they service and the annual Commonwealth funding received from 2002 to 2005 for the: (a) National Respite for Carers Program; (b) Commonwealth Carelink Centre Program; (c) Continence Aids Assistance Scheme; and (d) Carer Information and Support Program. (2) For the new contracts starting in July 2005, can a list be provided of each successful service pro- vider, the area they are to service and the annual Commonwealth funding to be provided for the: a) National Respite for Carers Program; (b) Commonwealth Carelink Centre Program; (c) Continence Aids Assistance Scheme; and (d) Carer Information and Support Program. Senator Patterson—The Minister for Ageing has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) Organisations funded under the National Respite for Carers Program with funding agreements commencing March 2005 are at Attachment A. There were no organisations with funding agreements that ended on 30 June 2005 for the Conti- nence Aids Assistance Scheme. (2) Tables of services and centres funded under the National Respite for Carers Program and Com- monwealth Carelink Program with funding agreements commencing 1 July 2005 are available on the Department of Health and Ageing website (www.health.gov.au). There were no organisations with funding agreements that commenced on 1 July for the Conti- nence Aids Assistance Scheme.
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Attachment A Organisations Funded through the National Respite for Carers Program—Funding Agreements Commencing March 2005 Carer Respite Services: Auspice Organisation Project name/address Project description Region New South Wales Working Carers Greek Welfare Centre CALD Day Respite New centre based respite South Eastern Centre 378A King for working carers from Sydney Street Newtown NSW the Greek community liv- 2042 ing in the Randwick, Bot- any, Sydney, Waverley and Woollahra Local Govern- ment Areas (LGAs). Anglican Retirement Vil- Penrith House Respite New centre based respite Nepean lages 62 Norwest Blvd Baulk- for working carers living in ham Hills NSW 2153 the Nepean region of Syd- ney. The Uniting Church in Unanderra Day Care Extended centre based Illawarra Australia Property Trust Centre 58 Graham St respite for working carers NSW Unanderra NSW 2526 living in the Wollongong LGA and surrounds. Work- ing carers of people with dementia will be targeted. St Luke’s Nursing Service St Luke’s Healthy Liv- Innovative centre based Inner West ing for Carers and in-home respite for 80 Cooper St Surry working carers living in Hills NSW 2010 the Inner West region of Sydney. Feros Care Ltd Feros Care Respite Ser- Innovative centre based Far North Coast vices - Far North Coast and in-home respite for Cnr Marvel & Cowper working carers living in Sts Byron Bay NSW the Byron Bay and Ballina 2481 LGAs. Chinese Australian Ser- CASS Day Respite New centre based respite Inner West vices Society (CASS) Centre 44-50 Sixth for working carers from Avenue Campsie NSW the Chinese community 2194 living in the Inner West region of Sydney. Catholic Healthcare Ser- David Palmer Respite Centre based respite for Orana Far West vices Ltd Centre 80-110 Cobbora rural working carers living Rd Dubbo NSW 2830 in the Dubbo LGA and Orana / Far West region of New South Wales. Novacare Inc Milpara (Extended) Centre based respite for Hunter Respite Care working carers living in 26-30 Caldwell Street the Newcastle, Lake Mac- Merewether NSW 2291 quarie and Port Stephens LGAs.
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Auspice Organisation Project name/address Project description Region Respite Cottages Cooma Challenge Ltd Snowy Monaro Respite New overnight respite for Southern High- 4 Vagg Street Cooma rural carers in community lands NSW 2630 respite cottages. Sydney Anglican Home Eleebana Respite Cot- New overnight cottage Nepean & Cum- Mission trading as Angli- tage respite in the Nepean and berland/ Prospect care Diocese of Sydney Unit 1 Cumberland / Prospect 28 Coombes Drive regions of Sydney for car- Penrith NSW 2750 ers of the frail aged, people with dementia and people with dementia and chal- lenging behaviours.
Uniting Care Goulburn Murray River Respite New overnight respite for Riverina Murray North East House rural carers in community McFarland Rd respite cottages who live in Wodonga VIC 3690 the Murray River area bor- dering Victoria.
Novacare Inc Ailsa Craig Respite New overnight and centre Hunter Cottage based respite for carers in 145 Lindsay St Hamil- community respite cottages ton NSW 2303 who live in the Newcastle, Lake Macquarie and Port Stephens LGAs. South Western Sydney Carers Cottage Community respite cot- South Western Area Health Service - 90 Werombi Road tage, for carers of the frail Sydney Carrington Centennial Camden NSW 2570 aged and people with de- Trust mentia and challenging behaviours living in the Campbelltown, Camden and Wollondilly LGAs.
Lithgow Information and Doreen’s Place New overnight respite for Central West Neighbourhood Centre 2 Crane Rd Lithgow rural carers in community NSW 2790 respite cottages who live in the Lithgow LGA. Victoria Respite Cottages Uniting Church in Austra- Community Respite Overnight respite for carers Eastern Metro lia Property Trust (Victo- House - St Mark’s of persons with dementia ria) (on behalf of St Community, 7 Edward and or complex needs. Mark’s Adult Day Centre) Street, Chadstone, 3148 Shire of Melton Melbacc House Over- Overnight respite service Western Metro night Respite,232 High for carers in LGAs in the Street, Melton, VIC, Western Metropolitan re- 3337 gion.
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Auspice Organisation Project name/address Project description Region Southern Peninsula Host Home Respite Expansion of the host Southern Metro Community Care Inc Program PO Box 505 home project for carers in ROSEBUD 3939 the LGA of Mornington Peninsula. Working Carers Karingal Inc Karingal Inc. Level 1/4 Extended care for working Barwon South James Street, Geelong. carers in the LGAs of Co- West Vic. 3220 lac-Otway, Surf Coast, Queenscliff, Golden Plains and the Grampians.
Uniting Church in Austra- Flexible Respite Net- Centre based program for Eastern Metro lia Property Trust work Garoopna Unit- working carers in LGAs in ingCare 10 A’Beckett the Eastern Metropolitan Street, Kew 3101 region. Inner East Community Inner East Respite Cen- New Centre respite service Eastern Metro Health Service tre 238 Church Street, for working carers for Richmond 3121 LGAs in Darebin, Ston- nington, Melbourne, Boroondara and Yarra. Macedon Ranges Health Macedon Ranges Flexible respite service Loddon Mallee Services Health Service PO Box with extended hours for 588, Gisborne. Vic 3437 carers in the LGA of Mac- edon and all LGAs in the Loddon Mallee region. Queensland Respite Cottages The Uniting Church in Blue Care - Southside Cottage based emergency Brisbane South Australia Property Trust Cottage Respite and planned short term (Q) 130 Hellawell Road, overnight respite service Sunnybank Hills Q for carers of persons with 4109 dementia and challenging behaviours. Working Carers Kabbarli HACC Inc Kabbarli Respite Centre based and in home Brisbane North 54B William Street, respite for Indigenous car- Caloundra Q 4551 ers in the Sunshine Coast area. The Corporation of the St Luke’s Healthy Liv- In home, weekend over- Brisbane North Synod of the Diocese of ing for Carers - Zill- night and centre based Brisbane - St Luke’s mere respite and weekend excur- 1/2023 Sandgate Road, sions, focusing on Indige- Virginia Q 4014 nous carers. The Alzheimer’s Associa- Toowoomba Day Res- Extended hours of respite Darling Downs/ tion of Qld Inc pite Centre care for working carers of South West 8 Buckland Street, people with dementia and Toowoomba Q 4350 challenging behaviours.
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Auspice Organisation Project name/address Project description Region The Corporation of the St Luke’s Healthy Liv- Centre based, in home and Northern Synod of the Diocese of ing for Carers - Towns- weekend overnight respite, Brisbane - St Luke’s ville and weekend excursions, 1/56 Thuringowa Drive, for carers in the Towns- Kirwan Q 4817 ville/Thuringowa area. Rural and Remote Ozcare Positive Care for Carers In-home respite for rural Peninsula - Far North carers (early morning and 16 Martyn Street, afternoon/evenings), in Cairns Q 4870 conjunction with local Day Respite Centre. Lutheran Community Lowood / Esk Day Res- In-home and centre-based West More- Care Qld pite Centre respite, social support, ton/South Coast 43 Park Street, carer education, carer sup- Lowood Q 4311 port and case co- ordination. Tambo Shire Council Tambo Multipurpose Flexible in-home respite Central Centre and outreach program (so- 26 Arthur Street, cialisation, carer education, Tambo Q 4478 short holidays/excursions). The Uniting Church in Blue Care Central - Collaborative model of in- Central Australia Property Trust Callide Valley home, centre based day (Q) 4 Hospital Road, and overnight respite to Biloela Q 4718 carers throughout the Ba- nana Shire. The Corporation of the St Luke’s Red Swag Centre based, in home and Darling Downs/ Synod of the Diocese of Respite - Cecil Plains weekend overnight respite South West Brisbane - St Luke’s 24 Geraghty Street, and weekend excursions Cecil Plains Q 4407 for carers in rural Qld. The Uniting Church in Blue Care Innisfail Flexible respite services to Peninsula Australia Property Trust 91 Mourilyan Road, be delivered to carers in (Q) Innisfail Q 4860 Cardwell and Johnstone Shires. Pormpuraaw Community Pormpuraaw Commu- Flexible respite services to Peninsula Council nity Care the local Indigenous com- Main Street, munity. Pormpuraaw Q 4871 Torres Strait Home For Torres Strait Home For Flexible respite services to Peninsula The Aged Inc The Aged - Respite the local Indigenous com- Service munities. Waiben Esplanade, Thursday Island Q 4875
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 197
Auspice Organisation Project name/address Project description Region Western Australia Respite Cottages Perth Home Care Services Perth Home Care Ser- Six month scoping study to Wheatbelt Incorporated vices, PO Box 1597 source opportunities for a Osborne Park WA 6916 community respite house in the catchment area. Catchment area is the Wheatbelt region, particu- larly in larger towns other than Northam (such as Moora, Wagin or Merredin). Working Carers Perth Home Care Services Perth Home Care Ser- Flexible respite services to Outer Metropolitan Incorporated vices PO Box 1597 be delivered to carers in North Osborne Park WA 6916 the Outer Metropolitan North region, targeting carers of frail aged, people with dementia and/or chal- lenging behaviours and working carers. Perth Home Care Services Perth Home Care Ser- Flexible respite services to Eastern Wheatbelt Incorporated vices Inc PO Box 1597 be delivered to carers in OSBORNE PARK WA the Eastern Wheatbelt re- 6916 gion, targeting carers of frail aged, people with dementia and/or challeng- ing behaviours, ru- ral/remote carers and working carers. Rural and Remote Broome Aged and Dis- Broome Aged and Dis- Range of respite options Kimberley abled Services Southern abled Services - South- for carers such as planned Cross Care WA Inc ern Cross Care WA In- in-home, out of home, corporated PO Box 76 overnight and on-demand BURSWOOD WA 6100 crisis respite to frail aged people and people with dementia and challenging behaviours. Hyden Progress Associa- Hyden and Districts Respite service to meet the Great Southern tion Incorporated Carer’s Respite Service needs of carers in the re- PO Box 156 HYDEN mote district of Hyden and WA 6359 also service the towns of Varley, Mt Walker, Karlgarin, Kondinin and Pingaring, including flexi- ble overnight cottage, in- home, out-of-home and on- demand crisis respite.
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Auspice Organisation Project name/address Project description Region Silver Chain Nursing As- Silver Chain South New and flexible in-home South West sociation Incorporated West Rural Respite Cnr service model to be coor- Mitchell Street & Blair dinated from the town of Crescent BUNBURY Bunbury, targeting carers WA 6231 of frail aged people, those with dementia and / or challenging behaviours, those with a terminal ill- ness and special needs groups.
South Australia Working Carers Masonic Homes Inc Southern In Home Res- Planned, flexible, in-home Southern Metro pite Program - Masonic and community based res- Village, Unit 75, Peter- pite services. son Street, Somerton Park, SA, 5044 Care Connect Limited Dementia Support & Respite services for carers Eastern and South- Respite for Carers - of people with Dementia. ern Metro East Avenue, Black Forest, SA, 5035 Respite Cottages Renmark Paringa District RCR Program - Com- Overnight respite services. Riverland Hospital Inc munity Respite Options - 29 Nineteenth Street, Renmark, SA, 5341 Tasmania Department of Health & Carer Support/70 High Expansion of existing ser- Nth Human Services Street, Campbell Town vices for short term TAS 7210 planned respite over a large rural area primarily to carers of people with challenging behaviours, through in-home, home based and hosting services. Northern Territory Working Carers Uniting Church Frontier Frontier Service Respite Working Carer’s Day Res- Northern Services Options 1 Kettle St. pite Centre and overnight Palmerston NT 0830 respite in the LGAs of Palmerston and Litchfield.
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 199
Auspice Organisation Project name/address Project description Region Australian Capital Terri- tory Respite Cottages Carers ACT Inc. Home from Home and Cottage respite for carers ACT Host Family Respite of people with dementia. Program 117 Dennison Street DEAKIN ACT 2600 Working Carers Alzheimers’ Australia Key Dementia Workers Key Dementia Workers to ACT ACT - Supporting Family provide a case manage- Carers Frewin Place ment role for family carers. SCULLIN ACT 2614
Aged Care Places and Facilities (Question No. 1023) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister representing the Minister for Ageing, upon no- tice, on 11 July 2005: (1) What role, if any, does the Minister have in negotiation of sales between providers of residential aged care places and facilities. (2) Is the list of places and facilities that have been sold, publicly available information; if not, why not; if so, can information be provided indicating where it is available. (3) For each of the past 4 financial years, can a list be provided of the sales of places and facilities. (4) (a) What guides are in place to set the cost of aged care places; and (b) are these guides publicly available; if not, why not; if so, where are they available. Senator Patterson—The Minister for Ageing has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) Under the Aged Care Act 1997 the approval of the transfer of places once a sale has been agreed is the responsibility of the Department of Health and Ageing. (2) The information is protected under section 86-1 of the Aged Care Act 1997. (3) See (2). (4) (a) The sale price of an aged care place is a matter between the seller and the buyer of the places. Aged Care Places (Question No. 1025) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister representing the Minister for Ageing, upon no- tice, on 11 July 2005: (1) What role does the Minister have in approving the transfer of aged care places between providers. (2) (a) What factors are required to be taken into account when making these decisions about transfers; (b) what other factors can be taken into account; and (c) what factors are precluded from being taken into account when making these decisions. (3) What is the Minister’s role, if any, in the negotiation of the transfer of places between aged care providers.
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 200 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
(4) What mechanisms are in place to ensure that residents, staff and community are consulted about the transfer of residential aged care places and facilities between approved providers; and (b) can a description be provided of the nature of these consultation mechanisms. (5) (a) What mechanisms exist to enable residents, staff and the community to provide feedback to the department about the transfer of residential aged care places and facilities between approved pro- viders; and (b) how does the department handle any feedback of this nature. (6) Is there a process in place for the Minister to declare a conflict of interest in relation to the sale or transfer process. (7) Since 1 January 2000, has the Minister ever declared a conflict of interest; if so, can a list be pro- vided of occasions on which the Minister declared such a conflict, including; (a) the dates of the conflict; (b) the name of the facility; (c) the location of facility; and (d) the reason for the conflict etc. Senator Patterson—The Minister for Ageing has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) None. (2) (a) (b) (c) The factors taken into account are those set out in section 16-4 of the Aged Care Act 1997 and section 4.63 of the Allocation Principles 1997. (3) None. (4) Requirements for approved providers to consult with care recipients are contained in the Aged Care Act 1997 and associated principles. Division 56 of the Act requires approved providers not to act in a way which is inconsistent with any rights and responsibilities of care recipients. The rights of residential care recipients are established in the Charter of Residents’ Rights and Responsibilities as set out in Schedule 1 of the User Rights Principles. One of the rights is to be consulted on and to choose to have input into, decisions about the living arrangements of the residential care service. The rights of community care recipients are set out in Section 23.25 of the User Rights Principles, and state the right for the care recipient to enough information to help make an informed choice. In relation to the transfer of places in particular, section 16-2 of the Act and sections 4.59, 4.61 and 4.63 of the Allocation Principles set out the information that must be included in an application for the transfer of places. (b) Approved providers may use a variety of methods to consult provided they satisfy the requirements of the Aged Care Act 1997 and the Allocation Principles 1997. (5) (a) Any member of the public can contact the department with feedback regarding the provision of aged care, including transfers. This can occur through the relevant state or territory office, or through the central office of the department. The Aged Care Complaints Resolution Scheme can also be used to provide feedback. The scheme can be accessed through a toll-free number. (b) The department considers any feedback and may respond, if appropriate, directly to the person provid- ing the feedback. The department is required under the Aged Care Act 1997 to consider the impact on current and future care recipients of any potential transfer of places. (6) See answer to (1) above. (7) See answer to (1) above. Mr Charles Zentai (Question No. 1028) Senator Ludwig asked the Minister for Justice and Customs, upon notice, on 13 July 2005: With reference to the Zentai matter: (1) With reference to the requested extradition by the Hungarian authorities on 30 March 2005 of Mr Charles Zentai, to which the Australian Government responded with a request for additional in-
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 201
formation from the Hungarian authorities: (a) on what date did the Government request the addi- tional information; (b) when was the information provided; and (c) on what date did the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) begin acting on behalf of the Hungarian authorities. (2) On what date did the DPP begin preparing an application for a provisional warrant and when was the application finalised. (3) (a) On what date was a provisional warrant sought from a magistrate; (b) was it granted on this date; if not, why not and when was it granted; and (c) have there been any appeals. (4) (a) On what date did the Minister begin consideration of the section 16 requirements and when was his consideration finalised; and (b) when and how did the Minister communicate his consideration to the DPP; if communicated in writing at a later date, when. (5) (a) When was a hearing held to determine whether the person was eligible for surrender; and (b) is it correct that the person was found eligible for surrender on Friday, 8 July 2005. (6) What is the status of the Australian Federal Police investigation in this matter; if it has concluded, when did it conclude and what was the outcome of the investigation. (7) On what date was the Minister advised of the outcome of the investigation. (8) Was this matter referred to the DPP; if so, what was the DPP’s conclusion and was this communi- cated to the Minister; if so, when. Senator Ellison—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) (a) and (b) On 3 May 2005, the Attorney-General’s Department (the Department) wrote to Hungary requesting that it provide additional information to supplement its request for the extradition of Mr Charles Zentai from Australia. The Department wrote to the Hungarian Government on 24 June 2005 requesting further information. The Department received additional information from the Hungarian Government on 8 June 2005. The Department received further additional informa- tion from the Hungarian Government on 6 July 2005. (c) The Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions (CDPP) began acting on behalf of the Hungarian Government when a notice to a magistrate, stating that an extradition request had been received, was issued by me on 8 July 2005 under section 16 of the Extradition Act 1988. (2) The CDPP prepared and finalised an application for a warrant for Mr Zentai’s arrest under the Ex- tradition Act 1988 on 8 July 2005. (3) (a) 8 July 2005. (b) Yes. (c) No. (4) (a) I concluded my consideration of a submission prepared by the Department on whether Hun- gary’s extradition request for Mr Zentai satisfied the requirements of section 16 of the Extradition Act 1988 on 8 July 2005. On the same day I signed a notice under section 16 of the Extradition Act 1988 stating that an extradition request from Hungary for the extradition of Mr Zentai from Austra- lia had been received. (b) When a notice is signed under section 16 of the Extradition Act 1988, the CDPP is provided with a copy of the notice. (5) (a) A magistrate has not yet determined whether Mr Zentai is eligible for surrender. (b) No. (6) The AFP investigation concluded on 4 March 2005. No further action is proposed at this stage. (7) On 8 July 2005, the Department briefed me on the background of Hungary’s extradition request for Mr Zentai including the outcome of the AFP investigation. (8) The AFP consulted with the CDPP in the course of their investigation.
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Iatrogenesis (Question No. 1029) Senator Nettle asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health and Ageing, upon notice, on 14 July 2005: (1) What are the annual rates of iatrogenesis resulting from: (a) failure to diagnose; (b) failure to treat; (c) incorrect diagnosis; (d) injury from therapeutic devices; (e) hospital acquired infections; (f) malnutrition amongst hospitalised patients; and (g) bedsores. (2) Within all categories of the iatrogenic spectrum, what is the total number of public health patients who die in Australia each year as a result of iatrogenesis. Senator Patterson—The Minister for Health and Ageing has provided the following an- swer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) (a) No available data. (b) No available data. (c) No available data. (d) There are no rates calculated. However, between 1 January 2000 and 30 June 2005, the Thera- peutic Goods Administration (TGA) received 190 reports (approximately 35 reports per year) of iatrogenic injuries and deaths associated with the use of medical devices. Of these reports, 49 (approximately 9 reports per year) related to deaths associated with the use of medical de- vices (use errors resulting in death). The TGA defines iatrogenesis or ‘use error’ events as those where the cause of the incidents or events is known but could not be attributed to device malfunction, design, manufacture, label- ling, or inadequate instructions. (e) For the financial year 2003-04, the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW) re- ported that 34,728 hospital separations (both public and private) were related to a diagnosis of hospital-acquired infection. This represented 0.005% of all separations. Separations were included if either the principal diagnosis (the diagnosis established, after study, to be chiefly responsible for occasioning the episode of care in hospital) and/or addi- tional diagnoses (complications and comorbidities, that affected the hospitalisation) were re- ported as hospital-acquired infections. (f) No available data. (g) For the financial year 2003-04, 22,991 hospital separations (both public and private) were reported with a diagnosis of bedsore (or Decubitus ulcer) representing 0.003% of all separa- tions. Separations were included if either the principal diagnosis (the diagnosis established, after study, to be chiefly responsible for occasioning the episode of care in hospital) and/or addi- tional diagnoses (complications and comorbidities, that affected the hospitalisation) were re- ported as bedsores (or Decubitus ulcers). (2) No data is available on the number of deaths annually of public health patients in all categories of the iatrogenic spectrum. Community Care Services (Question No. 1033) Senator Allison asked the Minister representing the Minister for Ageing, upon notice, on 20 July 2005:
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With reference to the recently completed competitive application process for community care services, including the National Respite for Carers, Commonwealth Carelink, Continence Aids Assistance, and Carer Information and Support programs: (1) Can a list be provided of the organisations that received funding, broken down by location and type of service; if not, why not. (2) How many organisations, previously providing these services, were unsuccessful in their applica- tions to continue receiving funding to deliver these services. (3) Can a list be provided of the organisations that have lost funding, broken down by location and type of service; if not, why not. (4) What criteria were used to determine the loss of funding to these organisations. (5) How many clients and/or carers will be forced to try and get services from a new provider. (6) What processes has the Government put in place to monitor access to these programs to ensure that there will be continuity of service for clients and carers. Senator Patterson—The Minister for Ageing has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) to (3) A list of organisations providing respite services is available on the Department of Health and Ageing website at http://www.health.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/content/ageing-carers- nrcpcfo.htm. The Request for Application (RFA) process aimed to streamline current administra- tion and to ensure effective use of taxpayers’ money. The RFA process contributed to the imple- mentation of The Way Forward – A New Strategy for Community Care which, inter alia, aims to streamline current administration and delivery arrangements to make it easier for people to access community care services. The RFA is helping to achieve these aims. Service levels will increase with the improved range of services and provide better choice. Average funding per project has in- creased by 20% from 2004-05. Ensuring continuity of services for carers is a high priority. (4) Criteria required were all outlined in the application papers published on the website. (5) See (1) to (3) above. (6) Transition funding is available for three months to unsuccessful providers. Black Hawk Accident: Compensation (Question No. 1045) Senator Bob Brown asked the Minister representing the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, upon notice, on 3 August 2005: With reference to the 1996 Black Hawk helicopter tragedy: (1) (a) Are the pensions and other payments made to widows, family members or other dependants, secure; and (b) in what circumstances could any of these payments be withdrawn or cease. (2) In the event of other payments being secured, for example from an involved third party, will there be any review of government payments; if so, what type of review. (3) Will the government review its payments to improve the circumstances of payees. Senator Hill—The Minister for Veterans’ Affairs has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) and (2) Pensions and other payments to widows, family members or other dependants of those who died in, or due to, the 1996 Black Hawk accident may be made under one or more of: • the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 1988; • the Defence Act 1903; or
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• the Veterans’ Entitlements Act 1986. Under the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 1988, lump sum compensation may be paid to and for the benefit of persons who were dependent on the Australian Defence Force mem- bers who died in the Black Hawk accident. Lump sum benefits for children are paid into trust and are held until the child reaches the age of majority. The Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 1988 also provides weekly compensation pay- ments for the benefit of children. Weekly payments for children cease only when they reach the age of 16 years. However, if a child continues in full-time study, weekly payments can continue to be paid up to a maximum age of 25. In 1998 an additional lump sum death benefit was provided under the Defence Act 1903 for a widow and for each child of a member who died due to service in the Australian Defence Force. These payments were available retrospectively and included the widows and children of those who died in the Black Hawk accident. Under the Veterans’ Entitlements Act 1986, compensation may be provided by way of a war widow’s pension and orphan’s pension. Entitlement to a war widow’s pension remains for the life of the widow. Orphan’s pension ceases only when the child reaches the age of 16 years. However, if a child continues in full-time study, the orphan’s pension can continue to be paid up to a maxi- mum age of 25. Compensation payments for which the Commonwealth is liable are secure, subject to legislative provisions that duplicate payments should not made by another Commonwealth benefit or by way of a compensation payment for which a third party is liable. Hence, should a widow or dependant of an Australian Defence Force member, who died in the Black Hawk accident, obtain an award of damages from a third party, all compensation benefits paid under the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 1988, up to the amount of that award, would be recoverable by the Commonwealth. After such damages are awarded and benefits are re- covered, no further benefits are payable under the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 1988. Payments made under the Defence Act 1903 are similarly recoverable to the extent that a third party is liable to pay compensation for the member’s death. Under the Veterans’ Entitlements Act 1986, a war widow’s pension and orphan’s pension will be limited (including a complete limitation), if damages or compensation in respect of the member’s death are made by a third party or a benefit is paid under the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensa- tion Act 1988. An additional death benefit for a widow or orphan under the Defence Act 1903 does not affect benefits under the Veterans’ Entitlements Act 1986 or the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 1988. (3) The review of payments to which the question refers was conducted immediately following the Black Hawk accident. On 11 June 1997, in response to concerns about the amount of compensation available, the Government announced the significant additional compensation payments that are made under the Defence Act 1903. These payments for severe injury or death of members in the course of their military duties recognises the special nature of the service rendered to Australia by members of the Australian Defence Force. After extensive consultation with service organisations, the three Acts that provided compensation at the time of the Black Hawk accident have ceased to apply since 1 July 2004. For service on and from this date, the Military Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 2004 provides a single compen- sation scheme which is specific to the Australian Defence Force and which further recognises the special nature of the service of its members.
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The Military Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 2004 provides a modern, military specific com- pensation scheme for service-related injury, disease or death comprising the best elements of the Veterans’ Entitlements Act, the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act and the Defence Act. Australian Defence Force: Cadets (Question No. 1048) Senator Mark Bishop asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice, on 4 August 2005: (1) How many navy, army and air force cadet units exist in each state and in which communities are they located. (2) (a) What was the total funding allocated to Australian Defence Force (ADF) Cadets Corps in the 2004-05 financial year; and (b) by what process was this money distributed between: (i) the three Cadet services, and (ii) each group within each service. (3) What formula, if any, is applied to the distribution of grants, and what is the process and timing each year. (4) (a) How much funding was allocated to each unit in the 2004-05 financial year; and (b) on what basis was this decision made. (5) (a) What additional grants were made to individual Cadet units; (b) what was the total amount of the additional grants expended in the 2000-05 financial year; (c) which cadet units received the ad- ditional grants; and (d) what criteria were set to qualify for these grants. (6) For the financial years from 2000-01 to date: (a) what was the annual increase in funding for the ADF Cadet Corps; (b) which cadet units received an increase in funding and what was the amount given; and (c) what criteria was used to determine distribution of additional funds. (7) How many salaried ADF positions are attached to the ADF Cadet Corps for the 2004-05 financial year and how many are: (a) regular defence force personnel; (b) reservists; and (c) other. (8) For the year 2004-05, how many positions: (a) were allocated to each state; (b) were allocated to each cadet unit; and (c) were part-time. (9) Is the cost of salaries to the Cadet Corps met from the funding described in (4) above; if not, under which budget stream is funding made. (10) (a) What is the role and function of these positions within the Cadet Corps unit; (b) what types of instruction are given to cadets; and (c) what are the obligations as set out in the duty statements. (11) Can a copy be provided of the duty statements for each type of position in each of the three service streams. (12) Was there a review, conducted by the Director of the Naval Reserve Cadets (NRC) in 1999 to es- tablish possible initiatives to assist NRC units with the broking of public liability insurance; if so: (a) what were the findings and recommendations of the review; (b) what action was taken as a re- sult; and (c) can a copy be provided of the report. (13) Given the Government’s recognition of the importance of the Cadet Corps as an entry point for the future recruitment of personnel to defence services, what action has been taken to ensure the con- tinued viability of the Cadet Corps given the increasing cost of public liability insurance. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows:
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 206 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
(1) Cadet units and headquarters are located by State/Territory as follows: Australian Navy Australian Army Cadets Australian Air Force Cadets (ANC) (AAC) Cadets (AAFC) QLD 29 58 43 NSW 19 68 38 VIC 13 37 29 SA 10 23 21 WA 17 28 23 TAS 9 13 8 NT 3 7 5 ACT 1 1 2 Norfolk Island 0 1 0 Total 101 236 169 A listing of units by community (suburb) is attached. (2) (a) Funding is provided from five areas within Defence: Navy, Army, Air Force, Corporate Ser- vices and Infrastructure Group and the Directorate of Defence Force Cadets. The total funding expended on the ADF Cadet organisations in 2004-05 is indicated in the table below: 2004-05 ANC AAC AAFC General Total Australian Cadet Defence Force Spending Cadets Navy $4.013m $ 4.013m Army $15.305m $15.305m Air Force $5.606m $ 5.606m Corporate Service & $1.400m $2.380m $1.180m $.241m1 $ 5.201m Infrastructure Group (CSIG) Directorate of Defence $5.694m2 Force Cadets (DDFC) Totals $5.413m $17.685m $6.780m $.241m $35.819m Notes 1. This represents funding across all three Cadet organisations as the amount cannot be attrib- uted to a specific Cadet organisation. 2. DDFC funding supports strategic ADF Cadets outcomes and cannot be attributed to the individual Cadet organisations. (b) Funding to the three Cadet organisations is determined by the single Services. CSIG expendi- ture occurs as requirements arise. DDFC funding supports strategic ADF Cadets outcomes and cannot be attributed to the individual Cadet organisations. (3) The Cadet Initiated Activities (CIA) program is the only form of Defence-funded grants program accessible to Cadets. The CIA program encourages Cadets to submit proposals for activities or equipment that will develop their teamwork and leadership skills. Funding is provided through the Cadet Enhancement Program (CEP) Budget managed by DDFC. CIA funding is allocated to each Cadet organisation based on a per-capita-per-region basis. The volunteer leaders prioritise, recommend and submit these proposals to DDFC by November each year. DDFC staff inform Cadets via email of the outcome of their proposals prior to the Christmas break. (4) (a) and (b) Central funding is not allocated to individual ADF Cadet units. (5) (a), (b), (c) and (d) There were no additional grants made to individual Cadet units in 2004-05.
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(6) (a) The level of funding for the three Cadet organisations in 2000-01, 2001-02, 2002-03 has pre- viously been provided in response to Senate Question on Notice No. 1827 dated 1 September 2003. Funds expenditure for 2003-04 and 2004-05 is provided in tables below: 2003-04 ANC AAC AAFC General Cadet Total ADFC Spending Navy $4.426m $ 4.426m Army $16.504m $16.504m Air Force $5.737m $5.737m CSIG $1.642m $1.390m $1.674m $.019m1 $ 4.725m DDFC $5.726m2 Totals $6.068m $17.894m $7.411m $.019m $37.118m Notes 1. This represents funding across all three Cadet organisations as the amount cannot be attrib- uted to a specific Cadet organisation. 2. DDFC funding supports strategic ADF Cadets outcomes and cannot be attributed to the individual Cadet organisations. 2004-05 Australian Australian Australian General Cadet Total Australian Navy Cadets Army Cadets Air Force Spending Defence Force Cadets Cadets Navy $4.013 $ 4.013m Army $15.305m $15.305m Air Force $5.606m $ 5.606m CSIG $1.400m $2.380m $1.180m $.241m1 $ 5.200m DDFC $ 5.694m2 Totals $5.413m $17.685m $6.786m $.241m $35.818m Notes 1. This represents funding across all three Cadet organisations as the amount cannot be attrib- uted to a specific Cadet organisation. 2. DDFC funding supports strategic ADF Cadets outcomes and cannot be attributed to the individual Cadet organisations. Using data from SQON No 1827 in 2000-01, 2001-02, 2002-03 and data from the tables above in 2003-04 and 2004-05, changes in funding for the Cadet organisations are indicated in the table below: FY 00-01 FY 01-02 FY 02-03 FY 03-04 FY 04-05 ANC $3.867m $4.431m $4.663m $4.426m $4.013m AAC $4.204m $5.004m $13.414m $16.504m $15.305m AAFC $3.811m $4.344m $8.116m $5.737m $5.606m CSIG $1.933m $2.045m $2.910m $4.725m $4.958m General Figure not sepa- Figure not sepa- Figure not sepa- $.019m $.241m Cadet rately calculated rately calculated rately calculated Spending previously previously previously CSIG1 DDFC2 $.235m $3m $9.100m $5.726m $5.694m Notes 1. This represents funding across all three Cadet organisations as the amount cannot be attrib- uted to a specific Cadet organisation.
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2. DDFC funding supports strategic ADF Cadets outcomes and cannot be attributed to the individual Cadet organisations. (b) As central Cadet funding is not allocated to individual ADF Cadet units, it is not possible to identify which Cadet units received an increase in funding; and (c) As central Cadet funding is not allocated to individual ADF Cadet units, it is not possible to identify distribution of additional funds. (7) There were 154 salaried personnel attached to the ADF Cadet organisations in 2004-05. (a) 30 of these personnel were regular Australian Defence Force; (b) 124 of these personnel were reservists; and (c) there were no other salaried personnel. (8) (a) For 2004-05, permanent ADF and Reserve personnel allocated per State/Territory were: State Permanent ADF and Reserve Personnel QLD 43 NSW 23 VIC 17 SA 13 WA 18 TAS 11 NT 10 ACT 19 Total 154 personnel (b) There are no salaried ADF positions allocated to ADF Cadet units. (c) See response to part (7) (b) above. (9) All salaries are funded by the respective Service. (10) See response to part (8) (b) above. (11) Generic duty statements for the positions held by ADF personnel within the management structure for the three Cadet organisations are available and have been sent. (12) No such review was conducted. (13) The Defence Insurance Office has advised that, as ADF Cadets and Cadet staff are deemed as em- ployees of the Commonwealth, they are protected for personal injury by the Safety Rehabilitation Act 1988 with Comcare. Furthermore, Defence has in place, under its current policy with Com- cover, coverage for general liability that extends to Cadets, Cadet staff and volunteers. ADFC Units Name Location State Headquarters ANC - NSW Mosman NSW Training Ship Albatross Woolongong NSW Training Ship Armidale Armidale NSW Training Ship Canberra HMAS Harman ACT Training Ship Condamine Mosman NSW Training Ship Culgoa South West Rocks NSW Training Ship Hawkesbury Point Clare NSW Training Ship Jervis Bay HMAS Creswell NSW Training Ship Kanimbla Liverpool NSW Training Ship Lismore Lismore NSW Training Ship Manoora Taree NSW
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 209
Name Location State Training Ship Nepean Penrith NSW Training Ship Rushcutter Port MacQuarie NSW Training Ship Shoalhaven Nowra NSW Training Ship Shropshire Grafton NSW Training Ship Sirius Brighton Le Sands NSW Training Ship Sydney Drummoyne NSW Training Ship Tobruk Newcastle NSW Training Ship Vampire Tweed Heads NSW Training Ship Vendetta Coffs Harbour NSW Headquarters ANC - NT Darwin NT Training Ship Darwin Winnellie NT Training Ship Melville Bay Nhulunbuy NT Headquarters ANC - SA Keswick Barracks SA Training Ship Adelaide Birkenhead SA Training Ship Augusta Port Augusta SA Training Ship Flinders Port Lincoln SA Training Ship Gambier Mount Gambier SA Training Ship Le Fevre Port Adelaide SA Training Ship Noarlunga Morphett Vale SA Training Ship Stuart Elizabeth South SA Training Ship Sturt Renmark SA Training Ship Whyalla Whyalla SA Headquarters ANC - NORTHQLD HMAS Cairns QLD Headquarters ANC - QLD Bulimba QLD Training Ship Bundaberg Bundaberg QLD Training Ship Carpentaria Thursday Island QLD Training Ship Centaur Maleny QLD Training Ship Cooktown Cooktown QLD Training Ship Coral Sea Townsville QLD Training Ship Endeavour Cairns QLD Training Ship Gayundah Bulimba QLD Training Ship Ipswich Ipswich QLD Training Ship Koopa Caboolture QLD Training Ship Krait Urangan QLD Training Ship Logan Browns Plains QLD Training Ship Magnetic Island Magnetic Island QLD Training Ship Magnus East Brisbane QLD Training Ship Maryborough Maryborough QLD Training Ship Moreton Bay Woody Point QLD Training Ship Sheean Lake McDonald (Cooroy) QLD Training Ship Norfolk Wellington Point QLD Training Ship Onslow Golden Beach Caloundra QLD Training Ship PALUMA Stafford / Shorncliffe QLD Training Ship Pioneer North Mackay QLD Training Ship Quiberon Gympie QLD Training Ship Redland Bay Cleveland QLD Training Ship Rockhampton Gladstone QLD Training Ship Southport Southport QLD Training Ship Success Robina QLD
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Name Location State Training Ship Tyalgum Main Beach QLD Training Ship Walrus Loganholme QLD Headquarters ANC - TAS Hobart TAS Training Ship Argonaut St Helens TAS Training Ship Derwent Hobart TAS Training Ship Emu Wivenhoe TAS Training Ship Hobart Hobart TAS Training Ship Leven Ulverstone TAS Training Ship Mersey Devonport TAS Training Ship Tamar Launceston TAS Training Ship York George Town TAS Headquarters ANC - VIC Westernport VIC Training Ship Albury North Bandiana VIC Training Ship Altona Secondary College Altona VIC Training Ship Barwon Geelong VIC Training Ship Bendigo Junortoun VIC Training Ship Hampton Park Secondary College Hampton Park VIC Training Ship Henty Portland VIC Training Ship Latrobe Newborough VIC Training Ship Melbourne Surrey Hills VIC Training Ship Mildura Mildura VIC Training Ship Norwood Secondary College Ringwood VIC Training Ship Tingira Crib Point VIC Training Ship Voyager Williamstown VIC Headquarters ANC - WA East Fremantle WA Training Ship ANZAC Rockingham WA Training Ship Broome Broome WA Training Ship Bunbury Bunbury WA Training Ship Canning Wilson WA Training Ship Challenger Guildford WA Training Ship Cockburn Munster WA Training Ship Dampier Dampier WA Training Ship Gascoyne Carnarvon WA Training Ship Kybra Esperance WA Training Ship Mandurah Dawesville WA Training Ship Marmion Hillarys WA Training Ship Morrow Geraldton WA Training Ship Perth East Fremantle WA Training Ship Pilbara Port Hedland WA Training Ship Vancouver Albany WA New Training Ship Cockburn Ferndale WA New Training Ship Cooloola Tin Can Bay QLD New Training Ship Shorncliffe Fitzgibbon QLD New Training Ship Toowoomba Toowoomba QLD Total = 104
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AAC Units Unit Location State 224 Army Cadets Unit Canberra Canberra ACT 230 Army Cadets Unit Norfolk Island Norfolk Island Norfolk IS 200 Army Cadets Unit South West Slopes 1 Platoon Grenfell NSW 200 Army Cadets Unit South West Slopes 2 Platoon Cowra NSW 200 Army Cadets Unit South West Slopes 3 Platoon Young NSW 200 Army Cadets Unit South West Slopes 4 Platoon Boorowa NSW 201 Army Cadets Unit Dee Why Dee Why NSW 202 Army Cadets Unit Blacktown Blacktown NSW 203 Army Cadets Unit Lancer Barracks Cumber- Parramatta NSW land 204 Army Cadets Unit Parramatta Dundas NSW 205 Army Cadets Unit Mudgee 4 Platoon Mendooran NSW 205 Army Cadets Unit Mudgee Mudgee NSW 206 Army Cadets Unit North Sydney North Sydney NSW 207 Army Cadets Unit Glen Innes Glen Innes NSW 208 Army Cadets Unit Hastings Valley Port Macquarie NSW 209 Army Cadets Unit Tamworth 1 Platoon Quirindi NSW 209 Army Cadets Unit Tamworth Tamworth NSW 21 Army Cadets Unit Penrith Lemongrove NSW 211 Army Cadets Unit Newcastle Adamstown NSW 213 Army Cadets Unit Cronulla-Sutherland Sutherland NSW 216 Army Cadets Unit Lismore Lismore NSW 217 Army Cadets Unit Lake Macquarie Bolton Point NSW 218 Army Cadets Unit Macarthur 1 Platoon Campbelltown NSW 218 Army Cadets Unit Macarthur 2 Platoon Picton NSW 218 Army Cadets Unit Macarthur 3 Platoon Moss Vale NSW 219 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Wagga Wagga Leeton NSW 219 Army Cadets Unit Wagga Wagga Wagga Wagga NSW 22/29 Army Cadets Unit Holsworthy Holsworthy NSW 220 Army Cadets Unit Lithgow Lithgow NSW 221 Army Cadets Unit Cobar Cobar NSW 221 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Bourke Bourke NSW 222 Army Cadets Unit Ulladulla Ulladulla NSW 225 Army Cadets Unit Murwillumbah Murwillumbah NSW 226 Army Cadets Unit Normanhurst Normanhurst NSW 229 Army Cadets Unit South Lakes Morisset NSW 23 Army Cadets Unit Camden Camden NSW 233 Army Cadets Unit St George Rockdale NSW 234 Army Cadets Unit Maitland Maitland NSW 235 Army Cadets Unit Dubbo Dubbo NSW 236 Army Cadets Unit Toukley Toukley NSW 24 Army Cadets Unit Grafton Grafton NSW 25 Army Cadets Unit Erina Erina NSW 256 Army Cadets Unit Cootamundra Cootamundra NSW 26 Army Cadets Unit Wollongong Wollongong NSW
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Unit Location State 27 Army Cadets Unit Coffs Harbour Coffs Harbour NSW 28 Army Cadets Unit Manning Valley Taree NSW 307 Army Cadets Unit Deniliquin Deniliquin NSW 42 Army Cadets Unit Broken Hill Broken Hill NSW AAC Band Sydney Holsworthy NSW Barker College Cadet Unit Pymble NSW Baulkham Hills High School Cadet Unit Baulkham Hills NSW Chevalier College Cadet Unit Bowral NSW Hurlstone Agricultural High School Army Cadet Glenfield NSW Unit James Ruse Agricultural High School Cadet Unit Carlingford NSW Kinross Wolaroi School Cadet Unit Orange NSW Knox Gammar School Cadet Unit Wahroonga NSW Newcastle Grammar School Cadet Unit Newcastle NSW Newington College Cadet Unit Stanmore NSW Pittwater House Schools Army Cadet Unit Collaroy NSW Shore Cadet Unit North Sydney NSW St Aloysius’ College Cadet Unit Milsons Point NSW Sydney Boys’ High School Cadet Unit Moore Park NSW Sydney Grammar School Cadet Unit Darlinghurst NSW The Armidale School Cadet Unit Armidale NSW The King’s School Cadet Corps Parramatta NSW The Scots College Cadet Unit Bellevue Hill NSW The Scots School Bathurst Cadet Unit Bathurst NSW Trinity Catholic College Cadet Unit Goulburn NSW Trinity Grammar School Cadet Unit Summer Hill NSW Waverley College Cadet Unit Waverley NSW 70 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Daly River Pla- Daly River NT toon 70 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Tiwi Islands Pla- Bathurst Island NT toon 70 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Wadeye Platoon Wadeye NT 70 Army Cadets Unit Larrakeyah Larrakeyah NT 71 Army Cadets Unit Palmerston Palmerston NT 73 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Barkly Platoon Tennant Creek NT 73 Army Cadets Unit Detachment St Phillips Pla- Alice Springs NT toon 10 Army Cadets Unit Southport Southport QLD 11 Army Cadets Unit Logan Woodridge QLD 12 Army Cadets Unit A Company Camp Hill QLD 12 Army Cadets Unit B Company Salisbury QLD 120 Army Cadets Unit A Company Chinchilla QLD 120 Army Cadets Unit B Company Dalby QLD 121 Army Cadets Unit Wynnum/Manly Wynnum QLD 122 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Dysart Dysart QLD 122 Army Cadets Unit Mackay Mackay QLD 123 Army Cadets Unit A Company Caboolture QLD 123 Army Cadets Unit B Company 1 Platoon Kilcoy QLD 123 Army Cadets Unit B Company 2 Platoon Yarraman QLD
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Unit Location State 124 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Biloela Biloela QLD 124 Army Cadets Unit Gladstone Gladstone QLD 125 Army Cadets Unit Rockhampton Rockhampton QLD 126 Army Cadets Unit A Company Murrumba Downs QLD 126 Army Cadets Unit B Company Banyo QLD 127 Army Cadets Unit Ipswich Ipswich QLD 128 Army Cadets Unit Yandina Yandina QLD 129 Army Cadets Unit Enoggera Enoggera QLD 13 Army Cadets Unit Toowoomba Toowoomba QLD 130 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Charters Towers Charters Towers QLD 130 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Townsville Annandale QLD 130 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Townsville Kirwan QLD 130 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Townsville Pimlico QLD 130 Army Cadets Unit Townsville Heatley QLD 131 Army Cadets Unit Sarina Sarina QLD 132 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Yeppon Yeppoon QLD 132 Army Cadets Unit Rockhampton North Rockhampton QLD 133 Army Cadets Unit Palm Beach Palm Beach QLD 134 Army Cadets Unit Atherton Atherton QLD 134 Army Cadets Unit Cairns Edmonton QLD 135 Army Cadets Unit Wondai Wondai QLD 136 Army Cadets Unit Redlands Alexandra Hills QLD 137 Army Cadets Unit Monto Monto QLD 138 Army Cadets Unit Rosedale Rosedale QLD 139 Army Cadets Unit Lockyer Gatton QLD 14 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Blackwater Blackwater QLD 14 Army Cadets Unit Rockhampton North Rockhampton QLD 142 Army Cadets Unit Balonne St George QLD 143 Army Cadets Unit Mount Isa Mount Isa QLD 145 Army Cadets Unit Winton Winton QLD 146 Army Cadets Unit Bamaga Bamaga QLD 15 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Bowen Bowen QLD 15 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Northern Deeragun QLD Beaches 15 Army Cadets Unit Townsville Cranbrook QLD 16 Army Cadets Unit Redcliffe Clontarf QLD 17 Army Cadets Unit A Company Warwick QLD 17 Army Cadets Unit B Company Stanthorpe QLD 18 Army Cadets Unit A Company Bundaberg QLD 18 Army Cadets Unit B Company Hervey Bay QLD 19 Army Cadets Unit Pittsworth Pittsworth QLD Anglican Church Grammar School Cadet Unit East Brisbane QLD Downlands College Cadet Unit Cadet Unit Toowoomba QLD Scots PGC College Cadet Unit Warwick QLD St Pauls School Cadet Unit Bald Hills QLD The Southport School Cadet Unit Southport QLD Toowoomba Grammar School Cadet Unit Toowoomba QLD 40 Army Cadets Unit Noarlunga Lonsdale SA 41 Army Cadets Unit Whyalla Whyalla SA
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 214 SENATE Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Unit Location State 410 Army Cadets Unit B Company Waikerie SA 410 Army Cadets Unit Berri Berri SA 411 Army Cadets Unit Clare Clare SA 412 Army Cadets Unit Woodside Woodside SA 413 Army Cadets Unit (Pipes and Drums) Keswick Keswick SA 413 Army Cadets Unit B Company Underdale SA 414 Army Cadets Unit B Company Kadina SA 414 Army Cadets Unit Port Pirie Port Pirie SA 415 Army Cadets Unit Roxby Downs Roxby Downs SA 416 Army Cadets Unit B Company Ceduna SA 416 Army Cadets Unit Port Lincoln Port Lincoln SA 43 Army Cadets Unit B Company Victor Harbour SA 43 Army Cadets Unit Warradale Warradale SA 44 Army Cadets Unit B Company Gillies Plains SA 44 Army Cadets Unit Hampstead Greenacres SA 45 Army Cadets Unit Murray Bridge Murray Bridge SA 46 Army Cadets Unit Port Augusta Port Augusta SA 47 Army Cadets Unit Keswick Keswick SA 48 Army Cadets Unit B Company Kingston SA 48 Army Cadets Unit Mount Gambier Mount Gambier SA 49 Army Cadets Unit Smithfield Smithfield SA 6 BN Pipes and Drums Launceston TAS A Company 601 Platoon Launceston Launceston TAS A Company 602 Platoon Scottsdale Scottsdale TAS A Company 603 Platoon Youngtown Youngtown TAS B Company 611 Platoon Warrane Warrane TAS B Company 612 Platoon Pontville Pontville TAS C Company 621 Platoon Devonport Devonport TAS C Company 622 Platoon Burnie Wivenhoe TAS C Company 624 Platoon Deloraine Deloraine TAS D Company 631 Platoon Dowsing Point Glenorchy TAS D Company 632 Platoon Dowsing Point Glenorchy TAS D Company 633 Platoon Dowsing Point Glenorchy TAS D Company 634 Platoon Dowsing Point Glenorchy TAS 30 Army Cadets Unit Sunshine Sunshine VIC 300 Army Cadets Unit Ballarat Ballarat VIC 301 Army Cadets Unit Echuca Echuca VIC 302 Army Cadets Unit Oakleigh South Oakleigh VIC 303 Army Cadets Unit Stawell Stawell VIC 304 Army Cadets Unit Newborough Newborough VIC 305 Army Cadets Unit Surrey Hills Surrey Hills VIC 306 Army Cadets Unit Monash Mt Waverley VIC 308 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Bairnsdale Bairnsdale VIC 308 Army Cadets Unit Sale East Sale VIC 309 Army Cadets Unit Bendigo Junortoun VIC 31 Army Cadets Unit Norwood East Ringwood VIC 310 Army Cadets Unit Dandenong Dandenong VIC 311 Army Cadets Unit Mildura Mildura VIC 32 Army Cadets Unit Geelong Geelong VIC
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Unit Location State 33 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Benalla Benalla VIC 33 Army Cadets Unit Wangaratta Wangaratta VIC 34 Army Cadets Unit Colac Colac VIC 35 Army Cadets Unit Essendon Broadmeadows VIC 36 Army Cadets Unit Frankston Frankston VIC 37 Army Cadets Unit Albury/Wodonga North Bandiana VIC 38 Army Cadets Unit Shepparton Shepparton VIC 39 Army Cadets Unit Detachment Broadford Broadford VIC 39 Army Cadets Unit Watsonia Macleod VIC Beaconhills Army Cadets Unit Pakenham VIC Braemar College Army Cadets Unit Woodend VIC Brighton Grammar School Army Cadets Unit Brighton VIC Camberwell Grammar School Army Cadets Unit Canterbury VIC Ivanhoe Grammar School Army Cadets Unit Ivanhoe VIC Ivanhoe Grammar School Army Cadets Unit De- Mernda VIC tachment Melbourne Grammar School Army Cadets Unit South Yarra VIC Melbourne High School Army Cadets Unit South Yarra VIC Mentone Grammar School Army Cadets Unit Mentone VIC Monivae College Army Cadets Unit Hamilton VIC Scotch College Army Cadets Unit Hawthorn VIC Sebastopol College Army Cadets Unit Sebastopol VIC The Peninsula School Cadet Unit Mount Eliza VIC 50 Army Cadets Unit Midland South Guildford WA 501 Army Cadets Unit Aquinas Como WA 502 Army Cadets Unit Karrakatta Karrakatta WA 503 Army Cadets Unit Esperance Esperance WA 504 Army Cadets Unit Mandurah Mandurah WA 505 Army Cadets Unit Albany Albany WA 506 Army Cadets Unit Geraldton Geraldton WA 507 Army Cadets Unit Joondalup Beldon WA 508 Army Cadets Unit Karratha Karratha WA 509 Army Cadets Unit Lynwood Lynwood WA 51 Army Cadets Unit Drum Corps Karrakatta WA 510 Army Cadets Unit Merredin Merredin WA 511 Army Cadets Unit South West Busselton WA 512 Army Cadets Unit Narrogin Narrogin WA 513 Army Cadets Unit Eastern Hills Mt Helena WA 514 Army Cadets Unit Port Hedland Port Hedland WA 515 Army Cadets Unit Bunbury Bunbury WA 518 Army Cadets Unit Katanning Katanning WA 52 Army Cadets Unit Armadale Armadale WA 53 Army Cadets Unit Wanneroo Wanneroo WA 55 Army Cadets Unit Eastern Goldfields Kalgoorlie WA 56 Army Cadets Unit Fremantle East Fremantle WA 57 Army Cadets Unit Morley Morley WA 58 Army Cadets Unit Carine Carine WA 59 Army Cadets Unit Rockingham Rockingham WA
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Unit Location State Christ Church Grammar School Cadet Unit Claremont WA Guildford Grammar School Cadet Unit Guildford WA St Josephs Army Cadets Unit Northam WA Total = 236 AAFC Units Name Location State 101 Squadron - Townsville Garbutt QLD 102 Flight - Townsville Garbutt QLD 103 Squadron - Ingham Ingham QLD 104 Squadron - Cairns Aeroglen QLD 105 Squadron - Mackay MACKAY QLD 106 Squadron - Tablelands MAREEBA QLD 107 Squadron - Innisfail Innisfail QLD 108 Squadron - Charters Towers Charters Towers QLD 109 Squadron - Burdekin Ayr QLD 110 Squadron - Bowen Bowen QLD Headquarters 1 Wing Garbutt QLD 201 Squadron - Aviation Training Bulimba QLD 202 Squadron - John Paul College Daisy Hill QLD 203 Squadron - East Brisbane East Brisbane QLD 204 Squadron - Roma Roma QLD 205 Squadron - Gatton Gatton QLD 206 Squadron - Gympie Gympie QLD 207 Squadron - Nambour Nambour QLD 208 Squadron - Amberley Amberley QLD 209 Squadron - Oakey Oakey QLD 210 Squadron - Toowoomba Toowoomba QLD 211 Squadron - South Burnett Kingaroy QLD 212 Squadron - Redcliffe Kippa Ring QLD 213 Squadron - Elanora Elanora QLD 214 Squadron - Park Ridge Park Ridge QLD 215 Squadron - Coorparoo Holland Park QLD 216 Squadron - Maryborough Maryborough QLD 217 (Shire of Redland) SQN - Cleveland Cleveland QLD 218 Squadron - Corinda Corinda QLD 219 Squadron - Archerfield Archerfield QLD 220 Squadron - Hendra Secondary College Clayfield QLD 221 Squadron - Ashmore Ashmore QLD 222 Squadron - Southport Southport QLD 223 Squadron - Caloundra Caloundra QLD 224 Band Squadron - Amberley Amberley QLD 225 Squadron - Ipswich Kirrabin QLD 226 Squadron - Beenleigh Beenleigh QLD 227 Squadron - Rockhampton ROCKHAMPTON QLD 228 Squadron - Parachute Training Kippa Ring QLD 229 Squadron - Flying Training - Glider Bulimba QLD 231 Squadron - Beaudesert Beaudesert QLD 232 Squadron - Saint Michaels Carrara QLD
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Name Location State Headquarters 2 Wing Amberley QLD 301 Flight - Aeromodelling Warrawong NSW 302 Squadron Rockdale NSW 303 Squadron Camden NSW 304 Squadron North Sydney NSW 305 Squadron Collaroy NSW 306 Squadron Darlinghurst NSW 307 Squadron Lidcombe NSW 308 Squadron Rutherford NSW 309 Flight Camden NSW 310 Squadron Tamworth NSW 311 (City of Gosford) Squadron Erina NSW 312 Squadron Sth Kempsey NSW 313 Squadron Dubbo NSW 314 Squadron Warrawong NSW 315 (City of Canberra) Squadron Canberra ACT 316 (City of Lake Macquarie) Squadron Adamstown NSW 317 (City of Taree) Squadron Taree NSW 318 Squadron Sutherland NSW 319 Squadron Inverell NSW 320 Flight (Ground Training) Specialist Unit NSW 321 (City of Newcastle) Squadron Kotara NSW 322 (City of Ryde) Squadron Dundas NSW 323 Squadron Glenbrook NSW 324 Squadron Randwick NSW 325 Squadron Goulburn NSW 326 Squadron Lismore NSW 327 (Gliding) Flight Bathurst NSW 328 Squadron RAGLAN NSW 329 Squadron Orange NSW 330 (City of Shoalhaven) Squadron Nowra Hill NSW 331 Squadron Coffs Harbour NSW 332 (City of Wagga Wagga) Squadron Forest Hill NSW 333 Squadron Port Macquarie NSW 334 Squadron Isabella Plains ACT 335 Squadron Williamtown NSW 336 Squadron Richmond NSW 337 Squadron ARMIDALE NSW 338 Squadron Warilla NSW 339 Squadron MOREE NSW Headquarters 3 Wing Chippendale NSW 401 Squadron Surrey Hills VIC 402 Squadron - City of Preston Watsonia VIC 404 Squadron - Laverton Laverton VIC 405 Squadron - City of Brimbank Sunshine VIC 406 Squadron Frankston VIC 407 Hume City Squadron Moonee Ponds VIC 408 Squadron East Ringwood VIC 409 Squadron - East Sale East Sale VIC
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Name Location State 410 Squadron - Bendigo Junortoun VIC 411 Squadron - Swan Hill Swan Hill VIC 412 Squadron - Albury-Wodonga Albury NSW 414 Squadron Richmond VIC 415 Squadron - Melbourne High School South Yarra VIC 416 Squadron - City of Moonee Valley Moonee Ponds VIC 417 (City of Bayside) Squadron Sandringham VIC 418 Squadron - Tyabb Tyabb VIC 419 Squadron - Shepparton Shepparton VIC 420 Squadron - Wangaratta Wangaratta VIC 421 (Aeromodelling) Flight Laverton VIC 422 Squadron - Horsham Horsham VIC 423 (Air Operations) Flight Point Cook VIC 424 Squadron - Morwell Morwell VIC 425 Squadron - Ballarat Ballarat VIC 426 Squadron - Traralgon Traralgon VIC 427 Squadron - City of Greater Geelong Geelong VIC 428 Squadron - Geelong Newtown, Geelong VIC 429 Squadron Queenscliff VIC 430 Squadron - Macedon Ranges Kyneton VIC Headquarters 4 Wing Point Cook VIC 501 Squadron Hobart TAS 502 Squadron Hobart TAS 503 Squadron Hobart TAS 504 (city of Burnie)Squadron Wivenhoe TAS 505 Squadron Launceston TAS 506 Squadron Launceston TAS 507 Squadron Devonport TAS Headquarters 5 Wing Hobart TAS 601 Squadron - Keswick Army Base Keswick SA 602 Squadron Woodside SA 603 Squadron Berri SA 604 Squadron Greenacres SA 605 Squadron LONSDALE SA 606 Squadron - BAND Keswick SA 607 Flying Training Flight Edinburgh SA 608 Squadron Willaston SA 609 Squadron Warradale SA 610 Squadron WARRADALE SA 611 Flight - Wing Technical Oaklands Park 5046 SA 612 Squadron Mount Gambier SA 613 Squadron Edinburgh SA 614 Squadron Port Pirie SA 615 Squadron Whyalla SA 617 Squadron Netherby SA 618 Squadron Willaston 5118 SA 619 Squadron Morphett Vale SA 620 Squadron Kadina SA 623 Squadron - Mildura Mildura VIC
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Name Location State Headquarters 6 Wing SA 701 Squadron - Bullsbrook Bullsbrook WA 702 Squadron - Madeley Madeley WA 703 Squadron - City of Fremantle East Fremantle WA 705 Squadron - Albany - City of Albany Albany WA 706 Flight - Ground Training South Guildford WA 707 Squadron - Mandurah Coodanup WA 708 Squadron - Northam Northam WA 709 Squadron - City of Kalgoorlie-Boulder Kalgoorlie WA 710 Squadron - Bunbury Bunbury WA 711 Squadron - Mid-West Geraldton WA 712 Squadron - South Guildford South Guildford WA 713 Squadron - Cannington Cannington WA 714 Squadron - Karrakatta Karrakatta WA 715 Squadron - South Guildford South Guildford WA 716 Flight - Flying Training Bullsbrook WA 717 Flight - Parachute Training Bullsbrook WA 718 Flight - Drum Corps East Fremantle WA 719 Squadron - Armadale Armadale WA 720 Squadron - Padbury Padbury WA 721 Squadron - Madeley Madeley WA 722 Squadron - Derby Derby WA 723 Squadron - Joondalup Joondalup WA Headquarters 7 Wing Bullsbrook WA 801 Squadron - Darwin Darwin NT 802 Squadron - Palmerston Palmerston NT 803 Squadron - Katherine Tindal NT 804 Squadron - Alice Springs Alice Springs NT Headquarters 8 Wing Darwin NT Total = 169
Australian Defence Force: Drug Usage (Question No. 1049) Senator Mark Bishop asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice, on 4 August 2005: (1) Has an investigation been carried out into the allegation that an organised network of soldiers and civilians have been using, selling and distributing amphetamines at Woodside army barracks; if so: (a) who conducted the investigation; and (b) what was the outcome. (2) (a) What charges, if any, have been laid against serving personnel by the military command and by state police; and (b) how many military personnel are implicated. (3) How many personnel have been tested for drug usage, and how many tests returned positive. (4) In how many cases have discharge procedures been commenced, commensurate with the Australian Defence Force (ADF) zero tolerance policy under the new regulations. (5) Since 1 July 2005: (a) how many other ADF personnel have been tested for drug usage; (b) at which bases; and (c) with what results in terms of outcomes and penalties imposed. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows:
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(1) (a) and (b) There is an ongoing investigation involving the Military Police and the South Australia Police. (2) (a) None. The matter has been referred to the South Australia Police. (b) The investigation is on- going. (3) Forty-one personnel were tested as part of the Woodside Barracks investigation. Eight personnel returned a positive result. (4) Eight. (5) (a) and (b) ADF Prohibited Substance Testing Results: 16 June-31 July 2005 Number Negative Positive Notes tested results results NAVY HMAS Albatross 6 6 HMAS Arunta 4 4 HMAS Cairns 4 2 2 HMAS Cerberus 9 9 HMAS Coonawarra 9 9 HMAS Creswell 3 3 HMAS Darwin 1 1 NHQ-South Australia 8 8 HMAS Stirling 4 4 HMAS Sydney 22 21 1 HMAS Townsville 2 2 HMAS Wa t e rh e n 8 7 1 pending HMAS Wa t s o n 5 5 Total 85 81 3 1 pending ARMY Puckapunyal 2 2 Annual tests for test staff Townsville 1 0 1 Repeat offender Adelaide 13 13 Annual tests for test staff Total 16 15 1 AIR FORCE Richmond 64 64 0 Canberra 38 35 3 One member not included in stats, refused to be tested Amberley 41 41 0 Total 143 140 3 ADF TOTAL TO 244 236 7 1 pending DATE (c) One member resigned with effect from 19 August 2005. Administrative action is still in pro- gress for all other personnel, noting that they have 28 days to provide a Statement of Reason to Notice of a Positive Test Result. All members were tested under Part VIIIA of the Defence Act 1903, not under the Defence Force Discipline Act 1982. Disciplinary action is therefore not permissible.
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 221
Motor Vehicle Accident (Question No. 1051) Senator Mark Bishop asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice, on 4 August 2005: (1) Is the Minister aware of the report in Crikey.com of 2 August 2005, concerning the injuries sus- tained by soldiers of Tonga, Fiji and Australia as a result of a motor vehicle accident in the Kimber- leys; if so: (a) what investigation has been conducted into the accident; (b) by whom; (c) what were the findings; and (d) what disciplinary or other action has been taken. (2) (a) What was the extent of injury sustained by the soldiers; and (b) what was the cost of the damage done to the vehicle. (3) Was alcohol consumption found to be a contributing factor. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) Yes. (a) Investigations by the Army Military Police, in consultation with Western Australia Police, commenced immediately after the incident. (b) Army Military Police and Western Australia Police. (c) The investigations have not been finalised. (d) No disciplinary action has been taken as the investigations have not yet been finalised. Some actions were undertaken locally to identify any immediate risks and appropriate road transport regulations were re-emphasised to mitigate against future accidents. (2) (a) Injuries sustained to soldiers included minor cuts and bruising, deeper lacerations requiring surgery and some back injuries. (b) The vehicle sustained significant damage. The cost of repair or replacement will be deter- mined after the conclusion of the investigations. (3) Until the investigations are completed it is not possible to determine whether alcohol may have been a contributing factor in the accident. United States of America Military Personnel (Question No. 1052) Senator Nettle asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice, on 4 August 2005: With reference to the United States of America’s (US) Department of Defense report entitled, World- wide Manpower Distributed by Geographical Area (2001) which states that 663 US Marines were sta- tioned in Australia: (1) Why and for what purpose were 663 US Marines stationed in Australia in 2001. (2) For the years 2002 to date, how many US Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force personnel respec- tively, were deployed in Australia. (3) For the years 2002 to date, what was the total number of US military personnel deployed in Austra- lia. (4) For the years 2002-05 to date, what was the number of US dependents in Australia. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) The US Marines referred to in the honourable senator’s question were not “stationed” in Australia in 2001. The United States Marine Corps personnel in question were temporarily deployed to Aus- tralia for routine training.
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(2) The Department of Defence does not keep detailed historical data on the number of US military personnel, or their dependents, stationed in, or deployed to, Australia. The most recent relevant data is as follows: as at January 2004, the number of US military personnel stationed in Australia by service was: Army - 41, Navy - 80, Marine - 25, Air Force - 86. As at July 2005, the number of US military personnel stationed in Australia by service was: Army - 69, Navy - 75, Marine - 16, Air Force - 101. Additionally, the number of US military-related personnel who temporarily deployed to Australia aboard US military vessels, for both exercises and port visits, was as follows: 2002 - 47,536; 2003 - 52,588; 2004 - 23,007; and, 2005 to date - 13,839. (3) See Part (2) above. (4) As at January 2004, there were 369 US military dependents in Australia. As at July 2005, there were 421 US military dependents in Australia. Mail and Parcels Screening (Question No. 1058) Senator Ludwig asked the Minister for Justice and Customs, upon notice, on 10 August 2005: With reference to the screening of Australia Post mail and non-mail parcels (distributed through DHL, FedEx etc) by the Australian Customs Service (ACS): (1) (a) For the year 2004, can details be provided, by outlets in New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia, Victoria and the Northern Territory on the approximate number of individual overseas letters or postal items, including parcels, received at each mail screening centre; and (b) for each centre, did the ACS reach the 100 per cent screening target. (2) (a) What is the target percentage for individual non-mail overseas parcels screened; (b) when was this target set; (c) how was it calculated; (d) who, or which committee, set this target; (e) when was this target last revised; and (e) what was the target before the last revision. (3) For each of the years 2000 to date, can details be provided, by state, on the: (a) approximate num- ber of individual non-mail overseas parcels that arrive in Australia; and (b) the number of individ- ual overseas parcels screened. (4) (a) What is the policy for determining which parcels are screened and which are not; and (b) is it based on a risk assessment basis or is it random. (5) If it is based on a risk assessment basis, can details be provided on the factors that are taken into account when determining which parcels are screened. Senator Ellison—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) (a) Information is not available for each State or Territory international mail centre, however Aus- tralia Post reported in the Australia Postal Annual Report 2003-2004 (at page 97) that a total of 122.3 million articles were posted from overseas for delivery in Australia. (b) In conjunction with the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service (AQIS), the Australian Customs Service examines all postal articles that are presented by Australia Post. For the pe- riod in question, the 100 per cent target was therefore achieved. (2) (a) Customs risk assesses all air cargo reports. Customs does not have a target for physical ex- amination of imported non-mail overseas parcels (distributed through DHL, FedEx, etc). Cus- toms does however have a target to examine inwards air cargo. This includes the examination of imported non-mail overseas parcels (distributed through DHL, FedEx, etc), high volume / low value items such as printed material and documents, and general air cargo. The present examination target for this stream of goods is 70 per cent of consignments.
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 223
(b) July 2002. (c) This target was derived based on risk assessment and available resources. (d) The target was a Government decision. (e) Customs continues to aim to achieve an examination rate of 70 per cent of all imported air cargo consignments. (e) (sic) Prior to July 2002, Customs examined imported non-mail overseas parcels (distributed through DHL, FedEx, etc), high volume / low value items such as printed material and docu- ments, and general air cargo on a risk assessment basis. There was no target set. (3) (a) Customs systems do not capture data at the individual parcel level. The basis for Customs data in this import stream is at the consignment level. A consignment may include a number of in- dividual parcels. Data for the period 1 July 2001 – 30 June 2005 appears in Appendix 1. This includes the volumes of imported non-mail overseas parcels (distributed through DHL, FedEx, etc), high volume / low value items such as printed material and documents, and general air cargo. (b) As noted in the response to question 3 (a), Customs does not record information at the indi- vidual parcel level. Since July 2002, Customs has examined approximately 70 per cent of all imported air cargo. (4) (a) As noted at 2 (d), the 70 per cent target was a Government decision. (b) Within the 70 per cent target there is a combination of high risk individually targeted con- signments, all documents consigned as high volume low value cargo, with the balance being general air cargo selected on a risk assessed basis. (5) The risk indicators are not made public for operational reasons. Appendix 1 Volume of Imported Air Cargo Consignments* by State Period NSW VIC QLD WA SA TAS NT TOTAL 2001-02 2,636,458 992,476 255,018 185,888 57,947 1,471 8,071 4,137,329 2002-03 2,802,499 1,093,515 275,365 210,457 62,917 1,231 8,674 4,454,658 2003-04 3,126,064 1,275,510 310,313 234,924 66,092 1,237 9,132 5,023,272 2004-05 5,518,993 1,693,922 487,241 336,052 62,326 1,169 6,426 8,106,129 * A consignment may be a single item or include a number of individual parcels. Aviation (Question No. 1071) Senator McLucas asked the Minister representing the Minister for Transport and Regional Services, upon notice, on 9 August 2005: With reference to general aviation matters in North Queensland: (1) (a) Is it the case that the department’s conditions of offer for the provision of weekly mail services to remote areas of Australia state in part that the department must be satisfied that offerers have a quality system that meets the requirements of the department; and (b) what are those requirements. (2) Did the holder of the contract for the Cape York air mail run, Aero Tropics, have any quality sys- tem certification or accreditation at the time the mail run contract was awarded; if so, can details be provided; if not, has Aero Tropics made progress towards appropriate quality system certification, and to what standard. (3) Has the company been able to nominate a firm time table for future implementation of a quality process.
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(4) What is the minimum quality accreditation for an aviation contract of this nature acceptable to the Minister and the department. (5) What documentation, correspondence, references, agreements or potential contracts did Aero Trop- ics use to establish its quality assurance credentials with the department. (6) (a) Is it the case that the contract also states that the offerer must have sufficient finances to meet the requirements of the department; and (b) what are those requirements and how is ‘sufficient fi- nances’ established by the department. (7) Did Aero Tropics have a stop put on its credit for fuel at Lockhart River airstrip at any time in the past 6 months. (8) Has Aero Tropics had sufficient cash throughout the past 6 months to be able to pay all of its pilots on time and in full. Senator Ian Campbell—The Minister for Transport and Regional Services has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) (a) The Conditions of Offer for Tender No. L2004/1274 for the ‘Provision of Weekly Air Services to Remote Areas of Australia’ stated that ‘the Department must be satisfied that Offerers have the experience, technical capacity, financial, management, quality system, and necessary infra- structure to meet the requirements of the Department. To assist in this regard, Offerers should ensure they address the evaluation criteria contained in the Tender Specification when prepar- ing their response’. (b) The following evaluation criteria were set out in the Tender Specification: A. in relation to aviation safety regulatory considerations, meet the Commonwealth’s civil aviation safety requirements, as specified in or under the Civil Aviation Act 1988, the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988, the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 and the Civil Aviation Orders, as these relate to the carriage by air of passengers and cargo. The successful tenderer will be required to hold a Regular Public Transport (RPT) Air Opera- tors Certificate (AOC), authorising operations into and out of all specified ports, or demon- strate to the satisfaction of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) and DOTARS, that they are capable of upgrading to an RPT AOC authorising those operations within a reason- able time-frame. • If the successful tenderer does not hold such an RPT AOC at the date of commencement of the agreement with DOTARS, then the Department may agree to such alternative ar- rangements as may be acceptable to CASA, having regard to the interests of safety and the requirements of the Civil Aviation Act, regulations and Orders. • In preparing tenders, operators must demonstrate that they made sufficient inquiries to de- termine whether it will be possible to commence services to all communities in this Re- gion at the one time, or whether some of the specified ports will be added progressively as necessary aerodrome works are completed and subject to CASA’s authorisation of opera- tions into and out of those aerodromes. (Tender prices should reflect any progressive ad- dition of these communities.) • Prospective operators should factor into their tender price costs associated with necessary aerodrome surveys, inspections, and reporting requirements of the kind for which the air service operator is properly responsible. B. demonstrate that they will establish adequate aerodrome “positive” reporting systems with RASS communities [Note: in relation to the “positive” reporting system, it is envisaged that failure of communities to positively report on the safety of their aerodrome is to result in the air operator refusing to land if the aerodrome does not meet the required safety standard –
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 5 October 2005 SENATE 225
these procedures will need to be included in any ‘approved’ system, whereby an operator is authorised to conduct air transport operations under an AOC into an aerodrome that does not satisfy the requirements specified in the regulations or the Orders]. C. demonstrate their ability to commence a full RASS service (i.e. provide a scheduled weekly air service to the specified ports on a specified day of the week) from the commencement of the term of the agreement or as soon as practicable thereafter. Including details of appropriate interim arrangements if the tenderer anticipates significant delays in securing either: (a) an Air Operator’s Certificate authorising the relevant operations; or (b) the required authorisations under their current Air Operator’s Certificate to conduct air service operations to specified community aerodromes; in accordance with the applicable provisions of the Civil Aviation Act, regulations and Orders. • The operator’s tender documents must specify which ports are included in the tender bid. • RASS scheme services in this Region must be able to provide for the carriage of passen- gers and goods; D. give priority on RASS routes to the needs of the RASS community, and provide their writ- ten policy and undertaking on giving priority on RASS routes to RASS-community related traffic. These policies and procedures must be approved by DOTARS; E. provide a business plan, budget and evidence of financial viability and ability to conduct the required RASS services in accordance with sound commercial business practices (for fur- ther details, refer to section titled Business Plan below); F. demonstrate their strong aviation safety record; G. provide evidence of relevant and adequate insurance cover for operational risks associated with carriage of passengers and goods for profit (including mechanical breakdown of equip- ment and public liability); H. demonstrate their operational expertise and experience in providing services of this nature in remote areas of Australia, including details of suitable aircraft types and qualified and ex- perienced personnel: and including the maintenance and operation of aircraft and associated equipment to relevant Australian standards, including civil aviation safety regulations; I. have a clear understanding of the transport needs of communities in these remote areas and appreciation of the importance of air travel. (2) (3) and (4). Aero-Tropics met the criteria set out in the Tender Specification. (5) Aero-Tropics provided all Request for Tender (RFT) documentation requested by the Department under Tender No. L2004/1274, including a written response to the criteria as set out in the Tender Specification and requests for further information. (6) (a) Under Clause 14.2 of the Deed, the Operator must notify the Commonwealth Government of any Financial Difficulty. (b) A Departmental requirement listed in the criteria for Tender No. L2004/1274 was ‘the provi- sion of a business plan, budget and evidence of financial viability…..’ Aero-Tropics satisfacto- rily met this criterion. (7) and (8) Under Clause 14.2 of the RASS Deed, the Operator is required to notify the Department if they are having financial difficulties. The Department has not received any such notification from Aero-Tropics.
QUESTIONS ON NOTICE