137 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 138 working the vacancies caused by the retirement of Shri Lokanath Misra, Shri M.S. Abdul Khader, Shri Yog'endra Sharma, Shrimati Sumitra G. Kul- karni, Shri Maqsood Ali Khan and Shri Harsh Deo Malaviya from the membership of the Rajya Sabha." The question its put and the motion was adopted.

REFERENCE TO ALLEGED FIRING BY THE PAC MEN IN A TRAIN

DEMAND FOR DISCUSSION ON THE FIVE-YEAR, PLAN 1978-83

DISCUSSION ON THE WORKING OF THE MINISTRY OF INDUSTRY MR. CHAIRMAN: "We shall now take up discussion on the wor!8ng of the Ministry of Industry. Shri Bhupesh Gupta—not here. Shri Devendra Nath Dwivedi—and here. Shri Shy am Lai Yadav—not here. Shri Kalyan Roy, you have the opportunity. [Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair] 139 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 140 working SHRI KALYAN ROY (West Ben during 80,000 workers in the gal ): Sir, with your permission, jute mills were sacked. Not a single worker, in I will just initiate the debate and spite of Mr. having got the Comrade Indradeep Sinha will inter- position in the Cabinet and all the facility, has venue on behalf of the party. Sir, in been reinstated. If he is in such a situation, I the beginning, I must congratulate the do not know what will happen. Sacking is Minister of Industry for showing the going on but the largest amount of sacking courage to take over the Jaipuria took place during the emergency. Not a single empire in spite of a split in the Cabi worker has been taken back in spite of so net; and we have been told that he many representations. I do not know why Mr. is under severe pressure to hand over Fernandes is so helpless to see that the the Jaipuria empire back to Sitaram dismissed workers are taken back. Jaipuria and his gang. The work- ing class regrets why it is that Mr. George The third point is about the textile mills. Fernandes is not interested in taking over More and more textiles mills are becoming Swadeshi Polyester which actually yields the sick. What is the policy of the present highest profit. This shows that Mr. Fernandes Government towards the sick mills which agrees with me that mixed economy has come have been made sick deliberately. It is not my to a dead end. It is becoming unproductive statement or that of somebody-else from the with 70 per cent of the total credit going to the left saying this. The Prime Minister said private sector.. In spite of that, there is a fall categorically in the Conference of the in production, rise in prices, mounting work Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce ing class anger and the largest unemployment and Industry that he will prove to the hilt that we ever had in this country. it is the management—now I see Mr. Modi is staring at me^-who is responsible for the sickness in the industries. Mr. Fernandes should have taken note of it. The very-people The second point that I would like to take up who made the mills sick, who are guilty of is the question of the jute industry about which misappropriation, guilty of misuse of money we have just seen the report of the Public and guilty of all kinds of nepotism, have been Undertakings Committee. Sir, the Jute put in charge of the various national textile Corporation of has not been able to mills in and Tamil Nadu and deliver the goods, not because of some inherent other places. The same thing is happening to weakness, but because of the big houses, the the jute inclust-try. The Kharah Jute Mill, after Birlas, the Mafatlals, the Jains, the Bajorias it was taken over by the IRCI, has been put in and others who control the jute industry. They charge of those who made it sick. So, the loot have fleeced the growers and the public goes on. Previously it belonged to Bajoria and financial institutions and have prospered. They now it is in the State sector. We should have a . have diverted the money to the easy areas deep probe into the matter. where they can make profits Mr. George Fernandes is there for one year and the Cabinet is there for one year. Rs. 22 crores have been My fourth point is about the question which taken by the jutemill-owners from the Jute is agitating very much. What is the policy of Corporation of India, but not a farthing has the Government to the monopoly sector and been paid back, and yet they are getting more the multinational sector? Despite all the shout- and more jute from the Jute Corporation of ing and the proclamation, more licences have India. Now they are creating a big crisis of raw been issued to the multinational companies jute and are threatening to close down the jute and mono- mills for once" a day or once a week. As a matter of fact, 141 Diacussioyi on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 142 working poly houses since the Janata Government took no shortage of orders, that there was no crisis over. and MAMCO would be flourishing. But how much did they actually get? Out of Rs. SHRI ARVIND GANESH KULKARNI 242 crores, they got orders worth only Rs. (Maharashtra); Have you not read the 20 crores. And now a plant which is guidelines? employing nearly 20,000 workers is on the SHRI KALYAN ROY; Each Minister has verge of closure. A public sector a guideline. The result is confusion, concern, the only concern which produces chaos and anarchy. So I have ceased to take mining equipment today, is not getting orders any notice of the guildelines of the Janata from public sector undertakings. And who Government. Its Cabinet is a crowd. But the is getting? Sir, for instance, Coal India question is: why is it that the monopoly Limited wanted to set up a washery in concerns are flourishing in spite of Mr. Ramgarh. There were two tenders—one Fernandes being the Industry Minister? He from the Tatas and the other from was shouting so much about the Birla MAMCO. And who is getting it? The Commission. What steps have Mr. Tatas, not MAMCO. (Interruption) Not only Fernandes taken to expedite the work of the that, I Have sent to Mr. Ramachandran Sarkar Commission? What has he done with photostat copies of the commission offered the file? The whole Sarkar Commission file is to certain officers by the Tatas if they could lying on the desk of Mr. Fernandes. May I secure the contract for the Tatas. So if ask, in all humility, with anguish, with this position continues, it does not matter sorrow, why is it that it is not moving? It did whether Mr. George Fernandes is there or not move during the period of Prime his friend, the industrial tycoon, Mr. Shah is Minister because she did not there; the rot which has set in will deteriorate want it to move. It is obviously clear. Mr. K. in this mixed economy about which he is K. Birla had a direct access to the praising so much today. Mr. Fernandes said former Prme Minister. But why is jt not the other day that he has ceased to be a trade moving now? Why is it that more money is unionist, he haa ceased to be a socialist and being placed at the disposal of Mr. G. D. he now believes sincerely in the political Birla, Mr. K. K. Eiila and Mr. B. M. Birla? philosophy of Mr. Mody. So there will be Will the enquiry be expedited? Will Mr. Fer- no end to unemployment or poverty or crisis. nandes reply to this? The crisis will only deepen. Thank you.

Lastly, before I sit down, I would MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. like to point out about one public Maurya. sector undertaking and that is MA THE MINISTER OF INDUSTRY (SHRI MCO. This MAMCO was set up GEORGE FERNANDES); Sir, I thought my when the entire mining industry was friend was participating in the debate on the under the clutches of the private working of the Ministry of Industry. But, the sector. And MAMCO was set up in way he was arguing, a number of insinuations order to produce mining equipment have been made and a number of allegations so that we did not have to import min also have been made, some of which will need ing equipment from abroad. The to be refuted. I know that this is not perhaps mine-owners tried to sabotage it. the opportune moment. May be while replying After the coal mines were nationalis to the debate, I will meet some of the points ed, MAMCO, for the first time, got that my hon. friend has thought fit to raise. some orders. Mr. Fernandes stated in February this year that MAMCO placed orders to the tune of Rs. 242 crores from Coal India Limited and other public sector undertakings. You would have thought that there was 143 Written Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 144 working

"The current year began with stocks of food grains of 18 million tonnes which rose to 20 million tonnes by the end of June, 1977. Industrial production in the year 1976-77 had been t0 the tune of 10.4 per cent while in the year 1977-78 it has come down to .5.2 per cent."

"Industrial production increased by 10.4 per cent in 1976-77. Industries in which production increased substantially were....'' They have given the details. "In contrast to the trend in 1976-77, industrial production in 1977-78 is likely to register a growth of 5-6 per cent."

145 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 146 working

Immediate steps to bring about decentralisation in the ownership of the means of production...''

147 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] oj Min. oj Industry 148 working

149 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978] of Min. of Industry 150 working

151 Discussion on the [RAJYASABHA] of Min. of Industry 152 working

153 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 154 working

155 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 156 working

157 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 158 working

159 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Mm. of Industry l60 working the public sector. Sir, the Government has, on the one hand, a declared policy and, on the other hand, an effective and operational policy. What we are concerned with is not the declared policy but the effective and operational policy which has reduced production which has led to firing on the workers, and which has led to 0pen-arm invi- tation to multi-nationals. This is what the Janata party Government have done. And, they have said that in the last thirty years nothing has happened, everything has gone wrong and we shall give you a new policy, which, however, amounts only to a tinkering of the 0ld policy. I shall come to that policy later. The new Industrial Policy Resolution is nothing but an appendix to the old Industrial Policy Resolution of the Congress Government 0f 1956.

Sir, all this talk would have been good,, would have been edifying, if the performance had been good. But all this talk of a new policy is designed to cover up the dismal performance of the Janata Party Government in the industrial sector. What was the position in the year before the Janata Government took over? What was the rate of growth? It was 10.6 per cent. What is the rate of growth under the Janata Party Government? What was the performance last year? It was 5.6 per cent, about half. Are we concerned with the declared policy that they SHRI SANKAR GHOSE (West will increase production or the operational and Bengal): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, while effective policy whereby they have decreased discussing the Industry Ministry we can production. Not only that. Not only has the discuss its promises or policies and we growth rate gone down but it has a downward cam also discuss its performance and see trend. In 1974-75, the rate o1 growth in industry what it has done because there is a world was 2.6 per cent. In 1975-76, it was more than of difference between the declarations of double, it was 6.1 per cent. In 1976-77 it was the Industry Minister and the performance about double, i.e. 10.4 per cent. Therefore, n°t of his Ministry. The decoration is that only was there an increase but the growth rate they will increase production, the increase was nearly double. And, in the first performance is that they have decreased year of the Janata Party Government not only is production. The declaration is that they there no iMcrease but there is a decrease and will reduce the concentration of economic power, the performance is that they have encouraged large houses and multi- nationals. The declaration is that they will not give up planning, the performance is that they have weakened 161 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 162 working the decrease is by about half and therefore SHRI PILOO MODY; How many man- there is a declaration in the trend and there is days were lost in 1974 and 1975? a decline in production. SHRI SANKAR GHOSE; It is a wrong approach when they ask: What happened in Sir, what is the reason? There is some 1974-75. Sir, the country is not interested in reason for this. We can take the reason as past history. The country is interested in given in the Economic Survey or we can take performance. Sir, if this is the kind of the reason as given by the Industry Minister: approach, then they will not only not know What does the Economic survey say? The that the country is suffering, they will als0 not Economic Survey says that the reason is that know the reason why the country is suffering. in power generation, in coalmining, textiles, Thev will not know the reason of it and will etc. there was stagnation. Should he not be not know how to remove that suffering. ashmed to sav this? Who is responsible for power generation? Who is responsible for What is the position so far as the public coal-mining? Has not the Government the sector is concerned. That is the pride of India. responsibility f0r that? Can the Government India has given a lead to the developing shirk its responsibility by saying that these are countries this respect. But why this denigra- the reasons? Sir, the country is not interested tion of the public sector? Now we hear of the in reasons or alibis or excuses. The country is industrial policy of reservation of about 504 interested in performance. units. It is good; I congratulate the Industry Minister on that. But before he introduces this reservation,, may I ask for another We have the freedom but the freedom is not reservation? And that reservation is that to make or commit -mistakes or the freedom subject to Cabinet control, there will be no to ensure that there is no performance. Sir, encroachment on poaching by the other how can a Government justify a decline in powerful Ministers in the domain of the production? Whenever there is a decline in Industry Minister. Sir, is there any reservation production, they attribute it to power which is with regard to the Industry Department under under their control; they attribute it t0 coal, the Industry Minister? Is not the Home but coal mining is under their control. This is Minister-cum-Economist in his double the explanation in the Economic Survey. capacity or character dealing with certain What is the explanation of the Industry matters which pertain to the Industry Ministry? One explanation is power—the Ministry? Is the firing on workers a matter of same common explanation for which they Home Ministry? Has not the Industry Ministry stand self-condemned. The other explanation something to do for preventing that? is industrial unrest. Is it an explanation? Does not the Government have a responsibility to Sir, the other day we read in the papers avail that? Should there be firing on the banner headlines: 'Vajpayee Foreign Minister: workers? What is the position, Sir, so far as Foreign capital is welcome.' It was in banner the man-days lost are concerned? In 1976, the headlines and no contradiction has come. man-days lost were 6 million. In 1977, under What is the position. T want to know. Is it the Janata Party Government, it was just about that introduction of foreign capital is a matter double, 11 millions. That is, the industrial which does not belong to the Industry production decreases by half and the man- Ministry? Does it belong to the Foreign days lost are doubled. Sir, what is the Minister? Is it. how the business has been reason? bifurcated or compartmentalised? 259 RS—

163 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 164 working [Shri Sankar Ghose] This is position of the public sector. What is the use of having an indu-trial policy and what We understand from the Industrial Policy is the use of saying that we will do this,, we Resolution of the Industry Minister that will do that and so on, if this is the per- concentration of power will go and small-scale formance? This is not a matter for which the units will be encouraged. But the Finance private industrialists are responsible. This is Minister says: Give concessions to large the result of continuous denigration of the houses. In the first Budget, Sir, the total public sector. This the result of the continuous amount of new taxes imposed would exactly neglect of the public sector. Sir, so far as the amount to concessions given to large houses. public sector is concerned, . . . Therefore, it seems that the Industrial relationship and firing on workers is outside MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We will the Industry Minister's Department and comes adjourn now. You can continue after lunch. under the Home Minister's Department; welcoming foreign capital and multi-nationals is a matter for the Foreign Minister Mr. Vajpayee and Steel Minister Mr. Patnaik. Con- The House then adjourned for cessions to big houses is a matter for the lunch at one minute past one of the Finance Minister and deprivation of credit to clock. small-scale sector, that is the operational policy of the Banking Department is the concern of the Finance Minister. That is all 1 P.M. taken out of the Industry Minister's jurisdiction. Before we have this reservation in The House reassembled after lunch at three regard to these 504 items, I would suggest that minutes past two of the clock. Mr. Deputy the Industry Minister's department should not Chairman in the Chair. be poached or encroached upon by other SHRI SANKAR GHOSE: Mr. Deputy powerful Ministers like the Foreign Minister, Chairman,, Sir, I am still speaking on the the Finance Minister, the Steel Minister and so operative industrial policy. With regard to on and that our industrial policy should not be employment in 1975-76, in the organised distorted. sector increase of employment was 2.3 per cent. But last year, the first year of the Janata Government, the rate of production in the What is the result? What is the position in public sector having come down from 11 per regard to the public sector? The public sector cent to 4 per cent this employment has also had been attacked in the past. But it had been affected. When the growth of proved its worth. It had increased its employment in 1975-76 was 2.3 per cent in production. It had increased its surplus. But the organised sector, two-thirds of that what has happened last year? In the public increased employment was in the public sector the big monopolist has no control. It is sector. Now the public sector performance,, as the Government which has the control. What I have said, has come down from 11 per cent is the position? I am quoting from their own to 4 per cent. So this is the position as to official documents. In the public sector, employment, the repercussion on employment between April and December, last year, the of this industrial policy. rate of growth was 4 per cent and in the corresponding year previous to that, what was It is said that small-scale industries, khadi the rate of growth? Eleven per cent. About industries will develop. It is a good thing. three times more. And when the Finance 165 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 166 working Minister,, Mr. Patel, had provided about Rs. the Economic Survey and other documents 36 crores for khadi and village industries in which have said that in the past there were the Budget, it was said that employment for two constraints to economic growth. One was 25 lakhs will be provided. Very good. But the shortage of food reserves and the other now we understand that employment not of was the shortage of foreign exchange re- 25 lakhs, not of 20 lakhs, not of 10 lakhs but serves. And they say that for the first time of only 3.46 lakhs has been provided. This is these shortages have been removed. These the repercussion on the employment position. were the inheritances that this Government received. There was enormous stock of food Sir, on employment, the impact or reserves and an unprecedented foreign incidence of the operative industrial policy of exchange reserve. In that background, the the Janata Government is this that so far as the industrial production, instead of increasing at live registers in the employment exchanges double the rate, as in the past, has decreased are concerned, as on October, 1976, there considerably, as I have indicated. were 9.6 million people on the live registers. After one year, in October, 1977,, what was the position? It was 10.8 million. What was Sir, what has happened? In 1975-76, the the rate of increase of the unemployed, as re- rate of savings was 15.5 per cent. And what flected in the employment exchanges? The was the rate of investment because the rate of increase of the unemployed was 12.5 industrial growth will depend on investment? per cent. Unemployment is to be abolished The year before the Janata Party Government within 10 years. In the first year, the rate of came, the rate of savings was 15.5 per cent, increase of unemployment is 12.5 per cent. but the rate of investment was 16.1 per cent. It And not only that, we have got the budget of was higher than the rate of saving. There was two years. Therefore,, of the so-called five investment in the economy, there was growth years, if it is there, of the Janata Party in the economy, there was employment in the Government,, two years have already elapsed economy. But what was the position last in the sense that the policy has been declared. year? The rate of saving was 15.7 per cent. With that,, we have increase in the growth of And can I ask how much did the investment unemployment of 12.5 per cent. And the outstrip this rate of saving of 15.7 per cent, promise held out is that in 10 years, because in the previous year the investment unemployment will disappear. was more than 1 per cent higher than the rate of saving? Sir, the investment was 14.3 per cent when the rate of saving was 15.7—li per cent of the saving was not even invested. How can there be growth?

What is the position? Decline in industrial production, increase in the man-days lost, Before the second budget was presented by increase in unemployment—this is the impact the Finance Minister, he was asked in a press of the actual operative industrial policy. This conference what was the industrial prospects. has taken place when? In a background where He said that it was sluggish. He was asked all Government documents have said that why it was sluggish and he said: "I cannot never before in the history of the country,, the say. I do not know because I have given so country was in a more favourable position for much incentive to industry. I do not know industrial advance and economic growth. why they are not picking up". They have said—it is not me, it is the Government documents— 167 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] 0/ Min. of Industry 168 working [Shri Sankar Ghose] Sir, one item of this new addition is So,, Sir, this is the position. So far as the "brushes of all'types". What is another item? industrial policy is concerned, 'industry' Paint brushes? So,, if brushes of all types are means different things among the different there you get one mark. Then you get another Janata constituents. 'Industry', so far as the mark for paint brushes. The third mark is for Home Minister-cum-Economy Minister is wire brushes and fibre brushes. And the concerned, means that the industry as we fourth mark is for tooth brushes. Therefore, it know it should not be there; the only industry is only, a game of numbers. This is one illus- is agriculture. So far as the Finance Minister tration. is concerned, industry to him means I will give another illustration. One increase concessions to big industry. So far as the for this 504 is "adhesive based on starch gum" Foreign Minister is concerned, industry to him means welcome to foreign industries. The What is the second increase? That is "gum Steel Minister's view is also likewise. So far paste", adhesive gum. Adhesive gum is one as the Industry Minister is concerned, he has mark. Gum "paste" is No. 2 "Glue' is No. 3. given an Industrial Policy Resolution. For him SHRI GHANSHYAMBHAI OZA industry primarily means small scale industry (Gujarat): All these are not produced in the and village industries which are to be same factory. They are manufactured at encouraged. Sir,, it is welcome. So there is reservation policy. different places. But what has actually happened is that the SHRI SANKAR GHOSE: Has learned declared policy of the Janata Party friend come to defend it? Or are you opposing Government has been reserved for the it, then I will deal with it. And if you are ,, the C.F.D. and the Congress defending it, I will deal with it also. (O). The declared policy is reserved for them. SHRI GHANSHYAMBHAI OZA: But all The operational policy of the Janata Party these brushes are manufactured at different Government has been reserved for the factories. , the Jana Sangh and the B.L.D. Therefore, the declared policy of the SHRI SANKAR GHOSE. Do I understand Janata Government is for small scale if it is said "Brushes of all types", it is not industries for removal of concentration of brushes of all types? And that is one item. power. The operational policy of the Janata And paint brush can be another item. Tooth Party Government is encouragement to multi- brush, another item. nationals and to big houses. SHRI GHANSHYAMBHAI OZA: There Sir, according to the Industrial policy as are many factories at different places. announced by the Industries Minister,, he has increased the reservation from 180 to 504. It is SHRI SANKAR GHOSE: Why do you good, But if it is said that it is a dynamic there put an item, brushes of all types? Will change, it is a basic restructuring, the answer the English language lose its meaning? is "no", a categorical 'No'. It is a tinkering with Therefore,, I say it is not a game of numbers. the old Industrial policy of 1956. It can be You increase reservation. I welcome it. But demonstrated that here also the declared give the true number, not 504, to that f have policy and the operational policy are diame- some fundamental objection. If you want to trically different. First,, I take this item of 504, help the small scale industry, do it by all an increase from 180 to 504, a good increase. means. It is a good thing. I will give you Can you analyse this increase? How much of support. Everybody will give you support. But this increase is really genuine?

169 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 170 working merely this number game and inflating the Forty per cent of the bank credit goes to large figures will not help. And what is the houses. A substantial amount goes to the big position? traders. Only 10 per cent of the bank credit goes to the small units. Therefore, I say, help The census of the small-scale sector for the small units, help the small-scale sector, 1973-74 discloses that there are 2>400 items but not merely by reservation. The in which the small-scale industries are infrastructure should be there. There should operating. The Janata Party Government said be co-ordination between the industrial that what can be produced in the small-scale policy, the financial policy, the banking industry will not be produced in the large- policy and the fiscal policy. scale industry. If so, the reservation would have been not for 504 but for 2.400 items... I But the most crucial thing of all is this am only-indicating that if really the idea is to industrial policy is that if you really want to implement the Janata Party policy that what help the small-scale sector,, then the test will can be produced in the small-scale industry be how much out of your Plan funds you are will not be produced in the large-scale giving to the small-scale sector because that industry, then there are 2,400 items in the is the operational test and not the declared small-scale sector but you are giving test. reservation only for 504 and not 2,400. Therefore, that policy is not implemented. Sir, it is said that last 30 years' planning That is point number one. was all wrong. Panditji was influenced by the Soviet example. We had given emphasis on Then, how many units are there in the capital-intensive industries. We had gone by small-scale sector? The census for 1973-74 the Mahalanobis model of the second Five- discloses that there are 2.58 lakh units in the Year Plan. What was the Mahalanobis model small-scale sector. How many of them are of the second Five-Year Plan? How much genuine? Sir, it was disclosed that 1.4 lakhs emphasis was given on small-scale industry? are genuine. Fifty per cent of the small-scale Sir, we have got the figures. In the second units are not genuine. If you are a small-scale Plan, when the Mahalanobis model was there, unit then you have the advantage in getting when Pandit Nehru's model was there, out of licence. Now some of the 'big business houses the total Plan funds of Rs. 4,600 crores, Rs. operate through benami small-scale units for 175 crores was given to the small-scale the purpose of utilising import licences, for sector—3.8 per cent. It is very important to needing the so-called export obligation and remember what percentage of our Plan for carrying on business (C.O.B.). Therefore, allocation we gave in our second Plan for the one is C.O.B.; one is export obligation; one is small-scale sector. It was 3.8 per cent. In the foreign technology. Under this three head, third Plan we gave 2.8 per cent of cur Plan they enter the field preserved for the small- allocation for the small-scale sector. What is scale industry. Therefore, I say, if you really the Plan allocation under the so-called sixth want to help them, by all means help them, It Plan for *be small-scale sector? Is it a is a good thing. You do not heip them merely Gandhian allocation and is it a higher by increasing the numbers artificially that is allocation for the small-scale sector? That is not a genuine manner. You have to give them the crucial test. Sir, it is two Per cent. When a package of incentives; you have to give Panditii gave 3.8 per cent for the small-scale them the infrastructure; you have to give them sector out of the Plan funds in the second the raw materials; you have to give them Plan, 2.8 per cent out of the Plan funds in the financial support. Is Mr. H. M. Patel, the third Plan, only two per cent has been given Finance Minister, giving the financial now. Therefore, I say, there is no support? 171 Discussion on the [RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 172 working [Shri Sankar Ghose] trader, the representative of the monopolist use blaming the past. If you want to help the who gives them the inputs, purchases that small-scale sector, help the small-scale sector products at a low price and then export it and by all means. But give them a package of earn super profit. incentives and from the Plan funds at least to prove your bona fides that from the Plan Therefore, on the question of this industrial funds you are proportionately giving higher policy, if we really want to reduce amount, to the small-scale sector. concentration of power, to increase employment, to increase production, then the Sir, another thing. There are two types of industrial policy, the operational policy, units in the small-scale sector. There is one should be reserved, as I say, for the Socialist small-scale sector which produces for the members, for the CFD members and the small markets, local markets, village markets. Congress (O) members of the Janata Party. If There is another small-scale sector which the operational policy is so protected, the produces for the big business. Now, in certain declared policy can be taken over by the Jana things like bidi and footwear in the small- Sangh and the BLD, it will not matter. But in scale sector,'there are multi-national the operational policy let these elements not companies who are the sole traders, who give encroach. the inputs, the raw materials, to the small- scale sector and purchase their products at Otherwise, if we do not take a lesson from cheap prices and even export them. There is the past, if we do not understand why in spite one Canadian multi-national company which of so many favourable factors last year our gets 22 per cent cf the production from the production went down so much, if we do not small-scale sector at a low price and export it analyse that, or if the analysis ends by saying and earn super profits. Sir, if you are that for the past 30 years nothing has supporting the small-scale sector, then you happened and we shall give something new, have to find out which is the small-scale things will not improve. Even in the 'new' sector that you are supporting. You should policy instead of giving 3.8 per cent out of give them the infrastructure the inputs, the plan funds for the small-scale sector, we have marketing facilities, the financial support, and given only 2 per cent. Therefore, the also see that you break its linkage with the big operational policy is still not Gandhian. It is business houses. The big business houses, the still not for the small-scale sector. It is still capitalist enterprises .establish a linkage with not labour intensive. this small-scale sector and purchase at a throw-away price, their products and then Ultimately the aim of our industrial policy establish a linkage with the capitalist market is to generate growth, to diminish the of the world by exporting. This is an disparity between the rural areas and the exploitative type of relationship between the urban areas, to ensure that the mass big business houses and the small-sc?le consumption goods are produced by the sector. If you want to help the small-scale masses nnd to ensure that the domination of sector with finances and other things, this the foreign multi-nationals and the big exploitative relationship between the small- business houses is eliminated or diminished. scale sector and the big business houses must Then we have to give emphasis not to big be broken. The small-scale sector must be business houses which produce for the elitist classified into those sectors which are really consumption but to the small-scale sector bringing the small-scale sector into direct which produces goods for the masses or relationship with the consumer, not with consumers. Then only the disparities 'between the sole the cities and the villages will be reduced. 173 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industnj 174 working So far as the declared industrial policy How many small scale industries have of the Industry Minister is concerned, I become sick? The Government has not say that those things are there. I will ask thought of it and how to rectify it. For various him to implement that policy and to prevent reasons they have become sick. For want of his Ministry being poohed down or financial help, want of electricity or want of encroached by other pjowerful raw material they have become sick. But the Ministers—the Foreign Minister, the Finance Government have not thought of enquiring Minister and other Ministers—who want to why they have become sick. The Government bring the multi-nationals and the big business must come forward and appoint some houses. Let him implement this industrial committees for each State, not only with policy. What has been happening in the last officers but with some MPs also attached to year is something which is depressing. It them, to find out the reasons why the small was a year of wasted opportunities. scale industries are becoming sick. Unless With so much goodwill, with so many re- they do that, there is no use. sources, we have wasted it. I will ask him and implore upon him to take full control of his house, to prevent encroachment of The Government have come forward with other elements therein and to implement the an announcement that they will provide policy which will be for the benefit of the employment for all within ten years. If they masses. have to do this, they must start village industries. They must start small scale Thank you. industries in the rural areas. Now they are giving licences for big industries. When they SHRI N. P. CHENGALRAYA give a licence for a big industry, they must NAIDU (Andhra Pradesh): Mr. put a condition that they must start some Deputy Chairman, Sir, I welcome the new ancillary industries attached to each big industrial policy of the Government which industry, otherwise, if they do not do it, the they have announced. But in the other people cannot get employment. They announcement they have failed to mention have to do it. The first duty of the about nationalising of the 20 big industrial Government is to put the condition when they houses. We thought the Government would grant licences. come forward to nationalise these 20 big houses. Sir, in this country they are Sir, we are having a shortage of having about 5000 to 6000 crores of rupees power. We are having 3,000 megawatts worth of property. Compared to the entire power shortage. Due to this power wealth of the country, they are having about shortage we are having a loss of production 45 per cent of the wealth of the country in worth Rs. 3,000 crores every year. If we are these 20 industrial houses. If these 20 going to continue this, there will be industrial houses are nationalised, the unemployment also. When there is power country will benefit. shortage, the labourers working three shifts will work two shifts or one shift. Sir, in the industrial policy, they have not Then there will be unrest among labour. To mentioned much about the small scale avoid this, they must start producing more industries. They have only said that the small power. For this they must instal power scale industry will be helped. They have generating sets in so many places so that they reserved 180 items and have increased the re- can produce more power. servation to 500 items. It is a welcome feature. But, Sir, they have not done anything Coming to cement, for starting a factory to help the small scale sector by a statutory and for construction of a building cement assurance. Now many entrepreneurs are is required. But starting industries in villages or in towns. 175 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA] of Min. of Industry 176 working [Shri N. P. Chengalraya Naidu] there is used to formulate the industrial policy shortage of cement. I do not blame this through the Government. Now the Government for the shortage of cement. But Government itself has formulated this policy. the planners did not envisage that the cement This is one good thing. But some people are consumption will increase. Due to the not happy. Now the industrialists who used to planners' mistake the shortage has occurred formulate these Government industrial now. Now the Government are thinking of policies are sore with the present issuing licences. They have already issued Government. Not only these big industrialists some licences. If you want to start a cement but their henchmen are also sore. So they are factory in the private sector, it needs about Rs. crying wolf on this new industrial policy. 20 crores. For getting Rs. 20 crores, they have This has to be countered by the Government. to raise about Rs. 3 crores at least as share capital. Nobody can do it. In the private sector Sir, the Chairman of the Khadi and Village it is very difficult now to raise Rs 3 crores. So, Industries Commission has said that if Rs. 75 those people who have got the licences are not crores are given to him, he will provide jobs able to start cement factories. Only the big in- for five lakhs of people. But the Khadi and dustrialists can do it. So, when these people, Village Industries Commission is not having the private sector, is not starting it, it will go that amount. The Government must come to the big industrialists. It is unfortunate. I forward and giva Rs. 75 crores to the Khadi suggest to the Government that they should and Village Industries Commission so that start cement factories in the public sector. they can give employment to five lakhs of There are the State Government industrial people. There is no use of announcing that we corporations. They can give licences to the will provide employment, to all the people industrial corporations in every State. If licen- within ten years. We must also start ces can be given to the State Governments, formulating policies to give employment to they can start cement factories in the public the people. Thank you. sector. The licences of those who have not started these cement factories so far must be SHRI MAQSOOD ALI KHAN cancelled and the State Government's (Karnataka): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I Industrial Corporations must be asked to start shall confine myself this afternoon to the these factories. small sector only. Sir, before I proceed to the subject, I would like to invite the attention of Sir, in the small-scale sector they have to the treasury benches and "especially of the do much. Now educated people, unemployed Ministers to a suggestion that has been given engineers and technicians are coming forward the other day by the Honourable Speaker of and starting some small-scale industries. The the that it would be in the interest Government should not give licences to them of the working of the departments and in the if they want to start these small-scale interest of the public in general that we may industries in municipal areas or in major convene Parliament sittings specially to panchayat areas. They must insist that these consider the working of the departments. We small-scale industries must be started in rural have now the Budget Session, the Monsoon areas. Then only they will give employment Session and the Winter Session. Apart from to the rural people. To do this the Government these, we may convene one or two sittings of must come forward to give some subsidy and Parliament in a year to take up the working of help to the small-scale sector people. Sir, the departments. I think it is a good previously" the big industrialists suggestion. If we take it up, 177 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min of Industry 178 working the Members will be able to offer their the villages and encouragement of these suggestions to the Ministers and to the industries in the villages. When we started our Government. Plans, the. First Plan did not lay much emphasis on industrial development. It was on Coming to the subject itself, Sir, the agriculture. When we took up the Second Plan Industrial Policy that was announced by the the stress was placed on industrial hon. Minister on tlje 23rd December, 1977 development. And especially when the Third speaks of certain distortions in the past of Plan was being formulated we realised that "the industrial economy and then, in Sis there was a lopsided development of wisdom, he went on to elaborate it. industries in towns and in big cities and villages had been left out without any deve- He said: lopment whatsoever, and it was thought that "The main thrust of the new Industrial villages should also get the benefit of new Policy will be on effective promotion of industries, and the climate that was thought cottage and small industries widely better for the villages was the small scale dispersed in rural areas and small towns. It sector. Having assessed the situation like that, is the policy of the Government that how is it that the earlier Government could whatever can be produced by small and not do much even if we make an assessment cottage industries must only be so today? What were the impediments in the way produced." of the Government? When we take up the broad wings of the small scale sector or an Later on he says: industry for that matter, there are usually five wings. The first is finance, the second is "The list of industries which would be technical knowhow, the third is management, exclusively reserved for the small scale the fourth is marketing and the fifth is—in my sector has been significantly expanded and own way I would place stress on this—the will now include more than 500 items as geographical location of the industry. compared to about 180 items earlier." Regarding finance no doubt the Government was doing much about it, and even this -And he says: Government is prepared to do much about it. "While the existing definition of small There is no question of doubting the bonafides scale industries will remain, within the of the Government. Technical knowhow, you small scale sector; special attention will be have ample, because from the reports of the given to units in the tiny sector, namely, SISIs—Small Industry Service Institutes— and the survey reports that you have, you those with investment in machinery and know that you have ample number of equipment up to Rs. 1 lakh and situated in technicians to assist the new entrepreneurs. towns with a population of less than 50,000 Then the three wings that remain are the most according to 1971 Census figures, and difficult wings. They work as impediments in villages." the way of young entrepreneurs. The mana- This is not an expression of a new faith so far gement; the management difficulty is largely as the small scale sector is concerned. due to its being loose. There will not be any production; overheads will be more; you may Actually if the honourable Minister has to be giving them training in management by learn something from the past industrial conducting seminars and other things. But policies of the Government and even if he in actually for a good manager a certain aptitude his own way assesses them as mistaken is required. It is more or less the notions on the part 0f the earlier Government, he will come to the conclusion that this was the policy announced even by the earlier Gov- ernment; dispersal of industries to 179 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 180 working [Shri Maqsood Ali Khan] personal aptitude Coming to the question of geographical of a person towards an industry which matters location, what I want to say is that this factor rather than an injection from outside that may is the most important one. Why is it that a be given to the person. Here also a personal young man or would-be industrialist wants to evaluation will have to be made of the start his industry in a city? He selects the city manager. Then comes the fourth wing, for certain reasons. Firstly, availability of marketing. Market. ing is a very important power. Secondly, availability of water wing. I had a number of chances of attending1 facilities; and the third is the most important, seminars and of meeting industrialists, namely, labour. Skilled and unskill. ed labour especially, small scale industrialists. 1 think is available in the city to a degree not the greatest bottleneck in their way is comparable with this facility in the villages. marketing. They know how to produce a The last one is marketing of goods and thing. They know how to place the transportation. How about haulage? If a man commodity in the market. But actually they do starts his industrial unit in a place far away not know whether the commodity has a from the consumers, who is going to bear the market or not. Even when I took my friends to transportation charges? When you want to put the SISI and had discussions with the officers up an industry in a village, you will have to there, what did they do? They showed some look to these facts. Then, can you compete project reports. 1 would draw the attention of with other industrialists who are already the hon. Minister to the fact that all the project there? If you cannot compete, then there is no reports they have were prepared about 20 use putting up your unit in a village. years ago. Today what they do is to make some substractions or additions or All your schemes will indicate that the net multiplications regarding the machinery, value profit that a man can make -vill be 15 or 20 of the land, interest, etc. About marketability per cent. The person invests Rs. 1 lakh, Rs. 4 of the goods they are very much silent. They lakhs or even Rs. 5 lakhs in an industry. He will simply say: There is short, age of this will see whether it is worth his while to start material. It has a good market. There is a an industry and earn just 15 per cent, profit. mention of this in the report. I have got with The banks give 10 per cent, on deposits and me the report for 1977.78. It speaks about the some banks give even upto 13 per cent. Why SISI holding a lot of seminars all over the should he then take this risk of running an country and they take up the question of industry and spend his time and labour just to marketing also. But I do not think it is quite earn 15 per cent profit?" Unless the industry sufficient. When a man takes loans from the gives him a return of 25 to 30 per cent, why banks, produces certain things and finds that should one get tempted to start an industry and the things are not sold, he is completeily non- that too in the village sector? Sir, in the plussed. This is the crux of the problem. Industrial Policy Resolution, I think, for the Therefore, what I want to suggest is that the first time, a new phrase has been used and I marketing section of the SISI will have to be think it must be the brainwave of the revitalised and it has to be manned by persons Department or it may be that because of the who can make very good survey of the expansion of industries or because of the marketability of goods and who are posted economic expansion, these are all relative with up-to-date facts and figures regarding terms that we use. An industry which was a sale and purchase of these goods. Unless you large-scale industry becomes a small industry do it, it will not be pos-able to help young after a few days and an industry which is a entrepreneurs in starting small industries. small industry becomes a large industry. 181 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Mini, of Industry 182 working Similarly, an industry which is a tiny industry other people are there. Just I had a random becomes a medium industry and alter a few glance at this and on going through this list I days a very small col-tage industry becomes a found these items. I can mention all the items, tiny industry. Now, you have said that there is but that will take much of the time. If the a tiny sector. For this, Sir, what is the honourable Minister has some patience and reservation that they have made? You have even some time at his disposal, he can go to said that 504 items have been reserved for the market and see that these small-scale production in the small-scale sector. Will you industry goods, these goods reserved for the be able to work them? How are you going to small sector, are actually being produced by implement this reservation? Sir, our the big sector and I do not know how he is honourable colleague, Prof. Ranga, is there going to make a distinction between them. and I still remember his feelings about the There are two ways of doing that. Either you handloom industry and the mill industry. say that any big sector producing these goods Right from the year 1946 or 1947, I think, he would not be given power. Stop their power. I has been clamouring for the reservation for do not know whether you are going to do that. this sector and he has been clamour, ing that That is a big 'if. Or, you stop their raw the reservation made in favour of the materials. Do not give them any raw materials handloom sector should be implemented. But, whatsoever. If you don't do that, then I will up till now, the mills have been encroaching have to use the phrase that you become upon the commodities that are made by the nothing but an animated version of the highly handloom sector. Sir, I can just take up the list eloquent policies of your Secretaries. Nothing and show you whether it is possible to manage but that. What is the use of telling the country this. I am reading out from page 158 of the that you have reserved so many items which Report which contains the items reserved for are actually impracticable. So, I would request the small sector. Now, I will take up a few the honourable Minister that when he has items. There is an item here—. "Domestic electrical appliances and accessories"— such a thinking about the development of the reserved for this sector. But who are Philips? small-scale sector, he must be very much Who are Bajaj? Are they in the small sector? practical and anything that goes against this Then, there is another item—"Cooking reservation should be firmly dealt with. ranges". Who are the people engaged in this? Are they small people? Are the Bajaj people Lastly, Sir, I have one point to make and it small people? Then, there is another item— is about the silk industry in Karnataka. Sir, the "Storage water heaters and geysers"— silk industry is such an industry that it can reserved for this sector. Now, who are these give you crores of rupees so far as exports are people, the Spencers and the Kleertone concerned. But, in Karnataka, we have been people? Who are they? Then, there is another making requests to the Government for the item—"Mixers/Grinders"— reserved for this last so many years that a bank for the sector. Who are the people engaged in this? purchase of raw materials or what is called the Rallis India. How are you going to eliminate silk raw material bank, should be set up and a all these people? Then, Sir, I would like to go scheme was forwarded to the Government by to page 160. There is another item—"Laundry the Central Silk Board and it is with the soaps"— reserved for this sector. Who are the Government for the last four or five years. I people here? M|s. Hindustan Lever, the Tatas, would request the honourable Minister to have the Godrej people. Then, coming to paints and a look at it. If that bank is set up or if that varnishes, the Asian Paints, the British Paints corporation is set up. and

183 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 184 working . [Shri Maqsood Ali Khan] then it will go a long way in helping the silk industry in getting its raw materials from this bank and the weavers would be very much benefited. Thank you very much, Sir. I have done. I got this letter the day before yesterday. Hindu and Muslim riots took place in 1969. SHRI P. RAMAMURTI (Tamil Nadu); Mr. At that time, because of the conditions there Deputy Chairman, Sir, first of all, let me all the Muslim workers in all these factories congratulate the Minister for the bold step that were removed from service, and since then not he has taken in taking over the Swadeshi a single Muslim worker is being recruited in Cotton Mill, Kanpur. these factories. This is the position prevailing SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Thank there. You may say: it does not concern you you. because it is a private factory. But I think when the Industry Minister is giving them SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: I wired to him as licences, he should somehow compel the early as on the 20th January, when he was at management to have Muslim workers also; Bangalore and later gave him the details as to otherwise what will all the Muslims feel in how to take it over. I know how the this country? I am giving this letter to you. bureaucracy works, but I am glad that he has You can go through it and make inquiries. I been able to overcome the resistance of the would like an immediate action to be taken. bureaucracy and other powerful forces take it Within 24 hours these facts can be found out, over. Secondly, before I go to other questions, whether they are true or not. I would like that I want to read out a letter which I have action should be taken almost immediately— received from my comrades in Indore for the not that you are appointing this committee or Industry Minister's attention. It says; that committee. Do you want this letter?

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I will collect it.

SHRI N. G. RANGA (Andhra Pradesh): You are giving the order, and tbey are following them.

SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: It is not like that.

Secondly, with regard to the performance of the Ministry, I need not say much about it, because the Janata Party's Resolution the day before yesterday itself is a sufficient indict- ment of the performance of the Government. Therefore, I need not add to this self- condemnatory statement. The statement itself says: Our party has not made any mark and, therefore, the whole gamut of our entire economic policies must be gone into— agrarian as well as industrial—and they had made so many points. Here I am concerned wifih the problems

185 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Mini, of Industry 186

concerning the industry. What are the would prevent the concentration of economic solutions they have found out? I am not going power. The Janata Govern. ment is talking into the questions as to how much production about decentralisation of economic power. It is was there during the last year, how much per the same thing. Only the bottles are different. capita production was there or what the per- They are saying that they would have dilution centage of increase of production is, and so on. of equity capital. What does it matter if 40 per These things do not matter much. The real cent shares are being held by a group and that question is that in the conditions in which we group has got the capacity to control the entire are, what is the policy that the Janata' Party industry? What does it matter if 60 per cent whose policy is going to be the policy of the shares are held by 6000 different people? How Government of the day, has laid down? My does it remove the control of the big business other friend from the Indira Congress was houses from those industries? The same old shouting against the growth of big and foreign wine in new bottles. New words. That is what industries and that even small things like tooth is being done. I want to point out that this way paste, this and that were being manufactured it is not pos. sible to break up the power of by Hindustan Levers. I wish they had these economic houses. The Congress Gov- awakened to that all these years when they ernment had passed M.R.T.P. Act, and Foreign were in office. Now, when they are out of Exchange Regulation Act. They had also office, they complain that all these big abolished the Managing Agency system. monopoly houses have been given licences for Despite all that, big business houses did grow tooth pastes and all these small things. Who and are growing. Nobody can stop them. Even gave them licences? Now they are saying all today, with all these new mea. sures that you these things when they have come in the are suggesting, you will not be able to do opposition. That is a wonderful thing. I wish anything. Their power over the economy, they had the sense when they were in office. I officials, bureaucrats and executives of this do not think they are going to get any sense country is so tremendous, that I am sure it will hereafter. not be possible for you to get out of the clutches unless you are prepared to attack them What I want to point out is that the policy lock, stock and barrel. This is the main ques- statement issued the day before yesterday, tion. I know, Sir, that when Comrade George which I am sure the Government of India is Fernandes—I will not use the word 'Minister' going to follow, is the same old wine in new for him; I still think that he is comrade—was bottle. Only the words are changed. What is with me in the opposition, he used to thunder. the crux of the problem? Everybody in this country accepts that big business houses are SHRI S. W. DHABE (Maharashtra): He is very powerful, the growth of big business the employer now. houses in this country has been phenomenal and the grip of foreign concerns over the SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: At least in economy of the country is also phenomenal. thinking, he is still my comrade. Sir, when he All these things have got to be broken. This is was in opposition sitting with us, he attacked the commonly accepted in words. When the the Government of India for allowing these Congress was in power, they accepted it. monopolists to grow. He attacked the Govern- When the Janata Government is in power, ment for the fact that they had not been able they also accept it as far as the words are to take action against the Birlas despite all concerned. The power of the monopolists their crimes. Now what is the action you have must be broken is a commonly accepted thing. been able to take against the Birlas during the But how to solve that problem? The Congress Government were saying that they 187 Discussion on the [RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 188 working [Shri P. Ramamurti] to export. But the smaller people who employ 10 or 15 workers and who manuafcture last one year? They have got the power. without mechanisation are able to export. Whatever action you may take, they have got They are also against this mechanisation for the power to go to the High Court to get stay they cannot invest huge sums and they arso orders, this and that and all sorts of things. face ruination. Therefore, what is more Anything you are attempting to do within the important today? Getting a few rupees of present framework is something which will foreign exchange, a few pounds of foreign ex- not be able to break their power and all this change or the loss of jobs to hundreds of talk about dilution of equity shares will do no thousands of people, what is more important? good because when they dilute, they sell the As far as the officials are concerned, as far as shares to their kith and kin. There is only one the bureaucracy is concerned, they will argue thing to do and you will not . dare in any way because their palms might be do it greased. There are hundred of ways by means And that is, nationalise these 3 P.M. of which the big business people are able to big business houses, take them influence them. I am not blaming anybody. I over. It is anathema to some people am not here to bring any charges. But it in the Janata Party, to some powerful people makes me believe that their palms were in the Janata Party, though I know that greased. There were sufficient people in the Comrade George Fernandes still swears by Ministry whose palms might have been that. He will tell me, "What am I to do? I am greased and as e. result of thaF they are made bound down by certain constraints that are to put up notes and "they are made to find there in the present situation.'' Within these arguments for seeing that the jobs of these constraints, if you want a solution to a people are lost. This is what is mechanisation deteriorating problem, to a problem that is if it is allowed to continue. So. we went on a insoluble. what_can you do? You can do deputation and Mr. George Fernandes told us nothing, I will give you illustration after that he would look into the matter. They are illustration how exactly the power of these still looking into the matter. It is more than big business houses acts on this Government two months now. The files go to the officers and how they are not able to overcome them, and the officers go on writing something. and how the power of big business houses is Meanwhile, thousands and thousands of peole so strong in the bureaucracy that even the are now lying unemployed. This is what is" Ministers find themselves powerless to do happening, the same functioning the anything unless they have got the guts against bureaucratic functioning. They are the people them. I may give you a few examples. Take, who are ruling the country, who are ruling the for example, the coir industry. You are economy, who are deciding the economic talking so much of encouraging the. small policies. My friend, Mr. Naidu, of the Janata scale industries. Some months ago I brought Party said just now that previously the to the notice of the Industry Minister that a industrialists used to decide the policy, now certain gentleman was given the licence for the Government decides the policy. And what mechanisation of the coir industry which is the Government? It is not the Minister that employs about 20 lakhs of people, if I is the Government. It is the officials that are remember right, in Kerala, and mechanisation the Government, the bureaucracy that is the would make them lose their jobs. Then the Government, the executive that is the officials come and argue with us. I was there Government. And, therefore, the industrialists and his Secretary was arguing. "If we don't in this country, the big businessmen in mechanise we will not be able to compete, we will not foe able

189 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 190 working this country now decide the policy of the quote chapter and verse to prove it that they Government through the bureaucracy. And if were prevented from using this yarn. In 1962 they say that we are all angry with the the Bombay Dyeing and Weaving Company Government, it is a natak. It is a drama that is were given the licence to manufacture this being enacted that the business houses are cloth only on one condition, namely, that 90 very angry with" the policies of the per cent of the production will be exported. Government. Actually, they are extremely After that time application after application happy about those policies. This is one for licences were rejected by the Industrial instance that I wanted to point out. Licensing Committee, at that time composed of officials of three Ministries and of There is another instance, the story of the Planning Commission. This has been the polyester fibre yarn. I have got a big continuous policy. I want to ask the Minister correspondence with the Ministry on that. I do can he deny that these applications had been not want to go into the whole story but I just rejected all these years? I am prepared to point out that on the 22nd January—at that prove that. I have given you all the facts, the time, Mr. George Fernandes had nothing to do correspondence, the inner-governmental with this—suddently a notification appeared correspondence also I had given. In the face that polyester fibre yarn can be imported of all these things today the question is still against the export earnings of any commodity being examined. Meanwhile the units by any one. Suddenly it appeared on the 22nd continue to get the yarns through the S.T.C. January. Immediately I took it up with the Then, finding that the question is not Prime Minister. On the 24th, I went to the solved, last month we sent a memorandum Prime Minister and pleaded with him, "How is signed by 130 Members of Parliament, it that you are allowing this? Today the belonging to all parties, the Janata Party, my polyester fibre yarn can be bought by anybody party, the Indira Congress and the other against the export of fish, against the export of Congress, in fact, every section of the House, leather, against the export of anything." Then and I got the reply to the effect that the the Prime Minister took some action. It took question is now being examined. This is the some 11 days. After H days it was changed. reply that I got after more than one month and After it was changed again, what happens is the officials are still examining it. I ask why that I-again plead with the then Commerce don't you apoint a committee of Members of Minister under whom the textile industry then Parliament to examine it who will see was, and told him that you are now going to whether this thing can be given to the textile canalise it, you are going to do it through the mills at all? Therefore, I say that the textile State Trading Corporation, but do not give it mill magnates are so powerful in the to the textile mills because all these years the Ministry, they are so powerful with the textile mills were prevented from using this officials, that whatever be your policy of yarn, all these years this yarn has been helping the small scale sector, the way in reserved, this cloth has been reserved, for. which they will implement it and tha way in what is called, the art silk sector most of which they will guide you is to see that these which is in the small scale sector. This must small scale sector industries go phut. This is go to the handloom sector or the powerloom what is happening. I can give you instance sector. Therefore do not give it to the mills. after instance. I have already given you the Then I was told that they are the acfual users. I coir instance. asked how could they be the actual users. I can Now, take, for instance, slag, cement. You are talking of increasing cement production in this country. I 191 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] oj Min. of Industry 192 working [Shri P. Ramamurti] beaten up by the police and sent away. But at do not want to go into the whole story of how that time, this process was stolen by the slag cement was first introduced in this A.C.C. The designs were stolen by the A.C.C. country in 1962. In 1960 Russians fabricated The officers concerned were sacked, I know. the machine for manufacturing granules slag, But the Indira Government dared not take what is called the grandulating machine, and action against the A.C.C, the powerful A.C.C. they immediately gave us the process and We who stole those designs and they also immediately started on the process in Bhilai. fabricated a small machine and put up a Out of grandulat-ed slag, cement can be factory in Bhilai. The officers sacked were manufactured the cost of production of slag immediately taken as Directors of the A.C.C. I cement which is otherwise known as Portland think in Durgapur, the Birlas put up a factory. cements today is only Rs.90 to Rs. 95 per So, the slag granules produced in Bhilai were tonne as against Rs. 130 to Rs. 140 for the taken over by the A.C.C. unit transported to other tonne of ordinary cement. Today the Bagalkot which is nearly a thousand miles cost of production of slag cement is much away from Bhilai. The slag granules are sold cheaper. The slag is there, which is a waste to Digvijay cement factory also. They product of the steel industry. But, then, what purchased it at cheap price and sell it at the happens? The A.C.C. another big monopolist same price at which the other cement is sold. company in cement, they were so powerful Now, today, slag is mounting in Rourkela. and told the Government, said, no, you do not Slag is mounting in Bokaro and other places. produce it, and even if you produce it, you The Government is talking in terms of increas- sell it at the same price at which we are ing cement production and all that. I do not selling." want the Steel Ministry to take it over because cement falls under the Ministry of Industry. SHRI VIREN J. SHAH (Gujarat): When So, why should not the Industry Ministry take was it? over slag from the steel plants and tell those people: 'You are purchasing it at cheap rate; SHRI P RAMAMURTI: It was in 1962. therefore, we would not allow you to loot the SHRI VIREN J. SHAH: Mr. Maur-ya will people of this country.'? The public sector is appreciate when it happened. not to serve the interests of the big business. In reality what is happening today is. the public SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: I sector happens to be the servant of the Tatas, believe you are going to change it, the Birlas and all those people. This is the SHRI PILOO MODY: At least now you reality that we see. Therefore, Sir, it was have hope. happening like this before and it is still continuing. New words are coined like SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: At that time the decentralisation, devolution and all that but price was fixed at the same rate although its they do not mean anything. Therefore, I say, price was much cheaper. And, then, you will not be able to make any dent on the subsequently, when year after year, the price economic front whatever you might do. The went on changing—at that time it was Rs. power of big business is so great in this 62—, went on increasing, the price of the slag country that people can be purchased; cement also increased along with the other whatever might be the Government, people cement? And who manufactured it? Eight can be purchased. Unless you are able to thousand construction workers in Bhilai at attar.k at least some of them, you will not be that time were retrenched. And those able to go far. construction workers who could have been absorbed if a slag cement factory had be\:n put up. But they were

193 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 194 working Sir, my friend Mr. Naidu just now talked of fit comes from the side or that side. It only nationalisation of these top 20 business results in the ruination of the handloom houses. I do not know whether the weavers. Government will have the guts and the courage. If you havo the courage, you can do SHRI PREM MANOHAR (Uttar it tout you do not have the courage for a Pradesh): There was black market. simple thing. And that simple thing is the SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: This is what I taking over the distribution of the polyester am saying. There has been a ban on the filament yarn. This was being produced in this polyester filament yarn used by these textile country only by half a dozen or a dozen big mills and, now, all sorts of interpretations business houses, like the Birlas, Gwalior will be given. (Interruptions) Rayons, Baroda Rayon and some 4 or 5 of them. Now they were selling it at Rs. 230 per SHRI VIREN J. SHAH: The prices were kilo. How to bring down the prices? After all, very high at that time the distribution is not very difficult because SHRI PREM MANOHAR- There was this yarn is being used only in half a dozen black market. centres in India. It is not a commodity like SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: I agree"! The cloth to be sold . the common people. It is simple way to deal with the black market is to being purchased by the handloom weavers and take over the entire production from these the power-loom weavers in Bhiwandi, Surat, half a do7en people and distribute it to these and in Tamil Nadu in the Salem district, in people. This is a simple ^hing. Thij is not Chinalapatti, in Madurai and like that, in just very difficult. That is what I suggest. about half a dozen places this is being used. It is easier to procure this material from those SHRI PREM MANOHAR: It would not factories at control price through the S.T.C. stop the black market. and tell them. This is your cost of production plus your profit. And on this basis, the SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: The entire Government can procure this material and production from these people could have distribute it through the S.T.C. at proper price. been taken over and this could have been Instead of doing that, the Government is distributed to these half a dozen centres at importing polyester fibre yarn which is a huge controlled prices. There is no difficulty waste of our foreign exchange. about that This is not a very big problem. This is not a problem like distributing cloth or SHRI VIREN J. SHAH; Import is going edible oil or some other thing. Some half a on for the last several years. dozen centres are there in this country here SHRI P. RAMAMURTI; Previously, the the handloom weavers are using it. Even Government of" India was allowing imports this th:ng the Government cannot do. against export obligations. Now, the import Therefore, when it comes to the question of has been tremendously increased. It is being attacking the big business houses, increased to cater to the needs of these mill- whether it is in the case of slag cement owners. I know, as a result of these imports, or the handloom industry or filament yarn the prices have come down but the beneficiary or coir whatever it be, when it again is some big business house, not in the comes to the question of attacking the f°rm of P°" lyester filament yarn manufacturer big business houses the Government will not but in the form of cotton textile manufacturer. have the courage. There are powerful The same Birlas profit here. What does it vested interests. I do not know whether these vested interests are vested matter, whether the pro- inside the party. Anyway, the philosophy of 259RS—7. some powerful leader of the party is that. You should 195 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 196 working

[Shri P. Ramamurti] whom the people support. That wu> be the attack at feast some of the big business decisive way by which a nc* alignment of houses. You will be doing a very great service forces in this country can really come about. to the country if you are able to attack some of Otherwise, I am sure you are again going to the big houses. Mr. Naidu had suggested that do the some thing as the Congress Party, will the twenty big business houses should be be very bad. taken over. He is your own partyman. Immediately, if you are able to take over the SHRI PILOO MODY; This is an open two big business houses in this country, the invitation. business houses of the Tatas and the BirlaS, I SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: This is an open will have some satisfaction Immediately, if invitation to revolt. you are able to do this, you will be making a beginning. If you are not able to do any such- thing, any number of speeches...

SHRI ARVIND GANESH KULKARNI: Mr. Ramamurti, you have made a mistake in the sense that the polyester fibre yarn which you are talking of which is being used in Surat, Bhiwandi and so on is riot polyester fibre yarn, but it is rayon yarn. The Birlas, the Baroda Rayons and the Nirlons produce that. The polyester fibre yarn is being produced in the co-operative sector. We have got a plant in Baroda and we are supplying the entire polyester yarn to the handloom and the powerloom sectors. SHRI P. RAMAMURTI: I know. The operative sector is producing it. This is a new plant. I know that. Apart from that, there are also private factories which are producing this. I know these facts. This is what I am saying. What I am saying is that it has so far been restricted to the handloom and the power-loom sectors. It is not being supplied to the mill-owners. Therefore, Sir, in conclusion, I would say that the Minister of Industry should at least take up this position in the Government, fight for it and openly fight for it. Now, we hear so many fights between personalities in the Janata Party. Let there be a fight for policies. Let there be "a clear-cut fight and division inside the party and inside the Government on the quwtion of policies. Let us see

197 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 198 working

199 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 200 working

201 Discussion on the [ 27 APE. 1978 ] of Min. oj Industry 202 working

203 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 204 working

[The Vice-Chairman. (Shri U. K. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI U. K. Lakshmana Gowdaf) in the Chair]. LAKSHMANA GOWDA): Before. I call the next speaker, I would say that substantial time has already been consumed by the major parties and now rest of the Members have to be satisfied with only less than 10 minutes each. I have to make this. announcement. I just mention this so that other speakers who are there do 205 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 206 working not misunderstand me when I ring the bell just failure on the economic front: mis. allocation after 10 minutes. I now call Shri Indradeep of financial outlays between industry and Sinha. agriculture and introduction, rather multiplication, of the big machine. So there SHRI INDRADEEP SINHA (Bihar).-Sir, are two main remedies. The revision of the you give me 15 minutes' at least. allocation in favour of agriculture and dis. carding of the big machine to the ex. tent THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI U. K. possible." The Industrial Policy Resolution LAKSHMANA GOWDA)-. You go ahead. even literally borrows some of the formulations made by Chaudhary Charan SHRI INDRADEEP SINHA: Mr. Vice- Singh. Chairman, Sir, I will straight, away come to the central point of discussion, i.e. the direction of the Janata Government's Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I totally disagree with this diagnosis of the problem. Factually it industrial policy. Now the new industrial is not true that during the last five Plans the policy that has been declared by the Janata 'allocation to agriculture has been less than the Govern. ment, in its opening paragraph, cor- allocation to industry. That was true only of rectly notes some of the problems that our one Plan, i.e. the Second Five-Year Plan. country is facing as a result of the policies Otherwise, in every other Plan the allocation pursued by the Congress Government in the to agriculture and village and small industry post-Independence period. Now these has been higher than or equal to the allocation problems are well known. A low rate of to industry. So this statement is factually not growth of national income, a low rate of correct. I will not take the time of the House in growth of industrial production, growth of quoting figures. Secondly, in the Industrial unemployment, sickness in industry, crisis of Policy Resolutions of the Congress market, and many more features can be added. Government, in the Resolution of 1948 and in I am not disput» ing these. But the Janata the Resolution of 1956, emphasis on small and Party's policy statement gives a solution cottage industries is to be found. As a matter which indicates that the Government have a of fact, along with the growth of big industry, particular understanding of the causes of this cottage and small industries also have been industrial situation. Now the statement says; growing in certain sectors and languishing in "The main thrust of the new industrial policy certain other sectors, and even now small and will be on effective promotion of cottage and cottage industries have an important position small industry widely dispersed in rural areas in the industrial structure of the coun. try. So, and towns and it is the policy of Government both these points of the diagnosis of the that whatever can be produced, a small and disease are not substantiated by facts. Then, cottage industry nW only be so produced. what is the reason? Why has this situation come? We must remember that our country Now, what is the understanding behind this started industrialising when major part of ,w solution? This statement does not give us that jdvanced capitalist world had already understanding. But the understanding is given industrialised itself more than a hundred or by the r.ew political guru of our Industry two hundred years ago. We are in a different Minister, Comrade Fernandes, i.e. Chaudhary situation. Big giants are sitting in the western . Chaudhary Charan Singh has capitalist countries in Europe, in America, in written a book, India's Economic Policy, Japan, and international markets are already which he calls a 'Gandhian blue-print.' In that monopolised. We are dependent on them hook, Chaudhary Charan Singh says: "There primarily and what is the result of the are two main causes of our dependence? 207 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 208 working [Shri Indradeep Sinha] the developing countries in various fields that Again, Sir, I will not go into details. I will have now been vacated by the industrialised just quote one figure from our foreign trade countries. Recently we read in the newspapers that we have with these countries: a report that some of the West German mono- polies have placed orders for some automobile In 1975.76 the unit value of our exports was parts on the Indian manufacturers. We are only 70 per cent in terms of trade—in terms of happy that we have secured export orders. parity with the unit value of imports. In 1976- This is happening. The western capitalist 77 it was 76 per cent. This means, that if we countries are transfering a part of th* labour export commodities worth Rs. 6,000 crores, intensive production to the backward we lose about Rs. 1,500 crores due to unequal countries. And we are adopting that. But what exchange on the international market, and is the result? The result is that we are who gains? The western monopolies and the becoming more and more dependent on them. big industrialised capitalist countries. They I will cite one example. We entered into a take away Rs. 1,500 crores through unequal long-term contract with the Japanese steel exchange on the international 'market, crores industry for the export of iron ore. Now a or Rs. 1,200 crores by way of aid, and we are crisis has overtaken the Japanese steel industry grateful to them. Would it not be better that and production has been cut down by 20 to 25 we stop this drain through unequal foreign per cent. As a result, the export of iron ore trade, secure proper price for our commodities from India has been cut down and now and dispense with foreign aid altogether? workers are being retrenched. And Shri Biju Comrade George Fernandes—I would also Patoaik, Minister of Steel and Mines, says that call him comrade; Comrade Rasnamurthi re- one lakh miners are going to be retrenched. So commended that we should do that— in his if the Japanese industry prospers, then our ore Industrial Policy Resolution has not a word to mining industry will also prosper. If the say about this unequal exchange on the Japanese industry is in crisis, then we are also international market and the need to protect in crisis. So, why develop an economy like our interests. On the contrary, not only the this which is dependent on the crisis-ridden Janata Government, but also the Congress 'Western capitalist countries? I have no time to Government have been pursuing a policy of go into details but I will point out to the integrating our economy with the crisis-ridden Industry Minister that that is one of the basic world capitalist economy. reasons for the crisis in Indian industry. Thus the Industrial Policy has completely In this year's report of the Ministry of overlooked. Commerce and Civil Supplies we find a perceptible shift in the pattern of industrial Now, the second factor was pointed out by development emerging in which the developed Comrade Ramamurthi, that is the grip of countries are increasingly concentrating on monopoly. Now monopoly controls most of highly -sophisticated and capital intensive the essential commodities. And what is the areas. As a result, many less complex and policy of monopoly? The policy of monopoly labour intensive areas of industry are being is not the policy of free competition which vacated by the developed countries partly due was the policy of earlier capitalism. to rising labour costs and partly due to Monopoly has a different policy: draw the dependence on imported raw materials. This maximum of profit on the minimum of development has widened the scope for production. So monopoly is not interested in collaboration between increasing production. Rather monopoly seeks to restrict production. And it 209 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 210 working is not surprising that during the first year of reason is maintenance of the landlord system. Janata Party's rule more man.days have been Fifteen per cent of the big landowners own lost due to lockouts than due to strikes. One of 60 pe^ cent of the land and 66 per cent of the my friends sitting here was telling us that 11 total assets in the villages, and less than 4 million man-days have been lost due to per cent of the landowners own 30 per cent strikes. That is what the capitalists are telling of the land. At the other extreme and 50 us, that workers have become 'indisciplined', per cent of the land-holdings are below one that the Congress Government was better, that hectare and they own only 9 per cent of the Jt was 'disciplining' the workers and the Janata land. If most of the peasants and the agri- Government cannot 'discipline' the workers cultural labourers are So poor with, out and so strikes are increasing and production is means of subsistence, without work, declining. But more man-days have been lost without any tangible means of production, due to lock-outs in 1977 than due to strikes, who will purchase the commodities which has never happened in the post- produced by our industry? So, even independence period except during the days of though India is not yet fully industrialised, the Emergency. So, far as the industrial field is still there is a crisis of the market and this crisis concerned, the capitalists are having the same is becoming chronic—how to solve this freedom as they had during the worst days of crisis?—the Janata Party statement says we the Emergency. What does the Janata increase small industries, cottage industries Government propose to do to discipline the and village industries; that will solve the monopolists? No mention in the Industrial crisis. Will it? According to the figures Policy. You only say that you will encourage given in the Estimates Committee Report agriculture and you will encourage the small- an ordinary handloom produces 5 metres scale sector. But what about the tycoons who of cloth per day, a powerloom produces are already sitting there? I will tell you how 45 metres of cloth per day. So in they are eating up even the small industries productivity a powerloom is 9 times more and how they will not allow the small productive. And if I remember aright, industries to grow. according to the figures quoted by Choudhuri Charan Singh in his book, an automatic loom in a textile mill produces about Now, Sir, the third point, which the 96 times more. So if we build these industries Industrial Policy Resolution has only with backward techniques, where to sell that indirectly mentioned, is the crisis of the product? The poor people who are unable market. My friend over there has referred to to buy the products of powerlooms and the the latest report of the Estimates Committee textile mills, will they be able to buy this high of the Lok Sabha. The Committee has noted cost production? Sec. ondly, spinning is that during the last few years, the con- already killed. I am a khadi wearer. I sumption of textiles per head has declined and know very well that the khadi I purchase is not declined particularly in the rural areas because out of hand-spun yarn. Hand-spun yarn has the income per head has declined. So the crisis now vanished. It js mill yarn which is in the rural area, the growth of poverty in the purchased by the khadi bhandars and rural area affects the textile industry and given out . . . production has to be reduced. The market is SHRI GHANSHYAMBHAI OZA; No, no. oversaturated and the products are not sold. So this affects the textile industry both in the SHRI INDRADEEP SINHA: Yes, 1 know organised sector and in the decentralised it personally. It is mill yarn out of which even sector. Now, what is the reason? The this khadi is made 211 Discussion on the [RAJYASABHA] of Min. of Industry 212 working SHRI GHANSHYAMBHAI OZA: So far as the cottage industries are Not even a fraction of it. concerned, a two-fold process is taking place. On the one hand, you igive protection for the handloom industry. On the other hand, you SHRI INDRADEEP SINHA: So far as give protection to the power loom industry. weaving is concerned, the entire handloom The power loom industry is eating up the weaving and powerloom weaving is now handloom industry. Why does the dependent on the yarn produced by tne mills. Government pursue these contradictory You buy mill yarn and sell it at a premium. policies? Similarly, you also give assistance The Congress Government and now the Janata to big mills. Now, the Janata Party's policy Government have both failed to control yarn resolution gives a new slogan—Nai Khadi. production, to control distribution of yarn and What is this Nai Khadi? Nai Khadi is to make yarn available at controlled rates to polyester and cotton mixed yarn. If cotton the handlooms and powerlooms. I am not now yarn is spun on the spinning wheel, this going into the details about the reservations polyester and cottcfti mixed yarn cannot be that have been made. In what field of industry spun on the spinning wheel. The entire do these reser-vations come? I think hardly 20, spinning will be handed over to the mill 25 per cent, not even that much. They cover a sector for production of new khadi. very small portion of the industrial field. And many of the so. called small industries and tiny AN HON. MEMBER; That is also wrong. industries are just subsidiaries, are ancillaries of the big industries. I know, for example, the SHRI INDRADEEP SINHA; No. The Bata Shoe Company buys nearly l/5th of its blending of cotton and polyester cannot take total production from small shoe producers in place in the cottage industries. It has to be Agra, affixes its name and sells it at a profit. done in a mill. Now you are integrating even Bajaj Electricals buy their electrical products the khadi industry with the mill industry and from small producers, paste their name and taking it subservient to the mill industry. This sell them in their name. This is what big is hardly going to help. capitalists are doing. And many of the ancillary industries and small industries are subsidiaries of the big monopoly firms. Now Now, what is the rea^ purpose of the Janata the Janata Government proposes that these Party resolutions? The real purpose is to invite subsidiaries of the big monopoly concerns foreign multinationals. Our Industries should be given various facilities and aid. Now Minister, Comrade George Fernandes, if I naturally the monopolists welcome it. They are remember aright, went to West Germany, not opposed to it, because it serves their came back and said that the West German interests well. Why should they oppose it? monopolists have assured him that they are And it is wrong to think that some of these prepared to invest thousands of millions of small industries are more labour-intensive. As Marks in India. Are they going to invest this a matter of fact some of them are as capital- amount for 0ur benefit? Do they have some intensive as the big industries are. Only they interest in our development? Have they given are on a smaller 4 P.M. scale. Your theory of up their class character? The Industries reservation for all the small industries, Minister must have read at least some writings irrespective of their ownership, their link with of Marx. Despite his association with shri big industries and the big technology they Charan Singh, Shri Atal Behari Vajpayee and employ, is not going to solve the problem. Shri , he must still remember

213 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978] of Min. of Industry 214 working that the uuw«*oiSie belong to a parti, the Indian industries exist or can grow. cular class who exploits other people and Thirdly, you persuade your Government the bourgeoisie of the developed to fix appropriate ceilings and to capitalist countries exploit the under- distribute all the surplus land within the developed and less developed countries. next one year so as t0 expand the rural Why are the West German monopolists market and solve the crisis of the market. coming? Why are the American Thank you, Sir, monopolists coming? Why are the other monopolists coming? They are coming to SHRI RISHI KUMAR MISHRA exploit our resources. This is one object. (Rajasthan): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, What does this resolution say? It says when economic policies are decided and that once they dilute their equity holdings influenced by the game of politics and to 40 per cent then they will be treated at when there is a competition in populist par with Indian monopolists and then demagogy, there is bound to be a lot of they will enjoy all the advantages. I do confusipn which we witness in the field not think it is anything new. This policy of industrial policy during the last one was initiated by Shrimati Gandhi herself year in spite of a fairly consistent, at the instance 0f the World Bank. My internally consistent, policy statement only complaint is that the Janata Party is placed by the honourable Industry carrying forward this policy in the name Minister i>^re this House. of giving a new industrial policy to the <- j'ntry. Sir, I am speaking *n the midst of a Similarly, Janata Party Government is chorus of "Small is beautiful", and I do als0 giving assurance to the Indian not propose to join that chorus. I do not monopolists, that so far as they are also propose to give suggestions t0 this concerned, the Government is going to Government and to the Minister in spite protect their interests. And even the State of his socialist background to bring about sector wili be treated at par with the a radical transformation in the economy, Indian monopoly sector because now both because that would be an academic the sectors have to find their own exercise and also an exercise in futility resources. The State sector will be starved and I would confine my suggestions and of resources because the Indian mono- observations to the specific problems polists will not allow the State sector which the Indian industries are facing and products to be sold at a reasonable profit. to the realm of feasibility and possibility The Government will not allocate any in the given situation today. Sir, in the resources and it will be starved of Statement which the honourable Minister resources and, later on, wither away. That placed before this House, he made an seems to be the real objective which the observation that past experience shows Indian industrialists would welcome. that the Government policies have not Now, Comrade Fernandes perhaps does succeeded in restraining the dispropor- not agree. If you do not agree, Mr. tionate growth of the large houses. This is Fernandes, then, I would give you just a statement with which I agree and it is two suggestions, rather three suggestions. true that in spite of the various measures One is outside your sphere and two are to restrict the monopolies and the growth within your sphere. Firstly, you please of the large houses during the last thirty nationalise the 20 monopoly houses, if years, concentration of economic power you want really to advance the in the hands of a few has increased in our industrialisation of the country. Secondly, country and also the disparities have you nationalise all the foreign monopoly increased. I would only like to ask him to concerns and ban the import of foreign examine the industrial policies and the capital into spheres in which measures 215 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SAJ3HA ] o/ Min. of Industry 216 working [Shri Rishi Kumar Mishra] estingly, the profits of the top 10 biggest profit makers have increased by leaps and that the Janata Government is taking and is bounds. Gwalior Rayon profit increased from proposing t0 take with a view to ensuring that Rs. 16.5 crores to Rs, 29.1 crores,. Hindustan his policies and his measures also do not Lever profit from Rs. 21.2 crores to Rs. 28 frustrate the declared objectives of the Janata crores, Tata Steel profit increased from Rs. Government and the declared objectives 11.1 crores to Rs. 18.7 crores, TELCO profits enunciated in the statement itself. Now, sir, increased from 9.3 crores of rupees to 11.5 there is a talk that small industries and the crores of rupees and Larsen and Toubro cottage industries would be protected. There is profits increased from Rs- 8-2 crores to Rs. also a promise that concentration of economic 12.7 crores. An

219 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 220 working [Shri Rishi Kumar Mishra] a whole a progressive indusrtialised country which does not mean that you are poor people both in the rural and urban areas going t0 neglect agriculture. It means that are wearing less cloth and buying less cloth. we want to walk on two legs. A cart moves Only the middle class and the affluent class on two wheels and there is an inter- people are using more cloth. Their relationship between agriculture and industry consumption o* cloth has gone up. A study which has to be preserved and which must be was conducted by the Institute of Regional ensured by our economic policies. This Planning, Wardha in Seelu Block which is a imbalance which has come ir the approach, cotton growing area. They came to the conclu- and the climate that has been created needs to sion that when cloth is produced from ordinary be corrected. Sir, there is one question on charkha, it costs Rs. 17 per meter. When it is which we should be clear, and that is whether produced by Amber Charkha, it costs Rs. 7 per we want efficiency or we do not want meter. If you produce it in a mill, it costs Rs. 5 efficiency and whether we want to have an per meter. This is a dilemma, the dilemma of inefficient economy or we want to have an maximising employment o'n the one hand and efficient economy. You can indulge in of being able to supp'y the necessary polemics by trying to say that inefficient requirements of the people at a reasonable economy is very necessary because a large price level on the other hand. Therefore, number of people are there unemployed and instead of sounding the chorus of small'ness during the " t 30 years, unemployment and saying that everything that is small is ha.i .ricreased and, therefore, that type of beautiful, we have to blend these two approach was wrong. But that is a objectives in a manner so that we are able to short-sighted approach and will be ruinous meet the requirements of the common people because the Governments may come and the at a price range which is within their reach. Governments may go and if you once distort The phoney controversy of agriculture versus the direction in which the country is industry is ruining this country. A clicnate has moving, then the long-range effects are been created that the Janata Government is very ve:y harmful. Therefore, the Government against industry. Might be, Mr. George should be clear and make it unambiguous that Feraandes may say that the Opposition has they are not against industrialisation, they are carried on this propaganda but this is not so. not against industrial development, and that Though some attempts have recently been they stand for it. Again, in the industrial made to correct and rectify this impression, a development, what is the role of the public general climate has been created Chat thi' sector? It is not enough to say that the public government is against the industry. Now 60 sector will continue to have the commanding per cent of the raw materials for the industry heights and then you do everything to come from agriculture and the linkage weaken the public sector. There was a between the requirements of agriculture and very unfortunate decision taken that the industry are too obvious to be mentioned in Government would not take up the sick units and that they would be allowed to die or. if the great detail. Whether you go in for power or State Governments want them, they can have fertilizers, etc.; which are the basic them. It was this disastrous, short-sighted requirements of agriculture, they are industrial decision whichled to the massacre in Kanpur. products. Therefore, this climate should not be There was a recommendation of the UP created. The Government must be clear in its mind and must make it clear to the people that Government by the Janata Chief we want to make this country as Minister of Uttar Pradesh that the Jaipuria Mills should be taken over,. 221 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 222 working that they were being mismanaged thoroughly, panies. This is a very, very wrong policy the wages were not being paid to the workers because this is the one way of allowing the ajid, therefore, they should be taken over. But foreign industrialists and foreign companies to the Central Government, whether it was the come in and kill the Indian industry. It applies Commerce Ministry - the Industry Ministry or both to the private sector as well as to the both 01 them decided at that time not to take public sector. I say that we must strengthen over the Jaipuria Mills. Why was that deci- our industrial base, which includes the private sion taken? It is necessary that the sector, which includes the public sector, and Government should give an explanation to therefore a reasonable amount of protection this House as to why the Jaipuria Mills, in which is being given to our own Indian spite of the recommendation of the Uttar industries should not be denied to them. I Pradesh Government, were not taken over and hope that the tendency to deny this protection a situation was allowed to be created which to them will be discontinued and an attempt led to that dastardly incident in Kanpur and will be made to see that Indian industries which has shocked the whole country. And grow rapidly. subsequently those Mills have been taken over. Therefore, Sir, I would say that sickness is a disease in Indian industry which is caused Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I would only by mismanagement. And, therefore, it is not sumbit, in conclusion, that the battle in India proper, as the Government's present policy is, today, as we know, is not whether we are to allow only the big private sector units to going to have a socialist economy or whether take over small units in order to make them we are going to have a capaitalist economy. It efficient. Why don't you give this role to the is a battle which will not be declci-ed here by public sector? Are we not proud of the this debate. The battle between the socialist managerial excellence that we have achieved India and the capitalist India will have to be in the public sector? It is beyond doubt and decided by forces outside after they have beyond controversy that in the Indian public acquired sufficient strength. The issues sector today, the level of managerial excel- involved today are whether a backward lence that has been achieved is second to none economy will be imposed on this country or in the whole country. And if you entrust to the whether our economy will move forward, public sector this responsibility, I have no whether we will have industrial development doubt that it will expand the role of the public or whether we will not have industrial sector and the public sector will be able to development, whether we will have an rescue many of our industries from the economic system which leads to large scale present state of sickness. impoverishment of the rural poor and of the urban poor or whether these sections, the rural Before I conclude, Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, poor and the urban poor, will also share in the I would also like to refer to one decision of prosperity and progress of the country and the Government. 1 understand that there is an whether they will be brought into the approach that the protection that is enjoyed by mainstream of the economic system of this the Indian industries to day should be country. These ere the issues involved. I am discontinued. It is being done on the ground, quite sure that all patriotic Indians, on the plea, that this pro. tection breeds irrespective of the political parties to which inefficiency, that the cost of products of they may belong, will agree that anything Indian industries is more and therefore they which imposes on this country a backward should be allowed to compete with foreign economy is anti-national, anti-patriotic and com- anti people and all those who can contribute to taking the coun-

223 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 224 working [Shri Rishi Kumar Mishra] whose number today, as we came to know in try forward on the path of progress, this House, is more than 60 per cent. That is modernisation, industrialisation, development one yardstick from which I shall try to see of science and technology, must be this new industrial policy without going into encouraged and must be defended against other considerations of contradictions attack by multi-nationalism, foreign capital between the large industrial houses and public and such other obscurantist and backward sector undertakings or large houses. All these looking forces within the country. points have been discussed. That is one yardstick from which I shall try to see at the new industrial policy. SHRI S. K. VAISHAMPAYEN (Ma- harashtra); Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I consider The other yardstick is, how far this today's discussion on this industrial policy as particular new industrial policy is going to very important and essential for two/three affect the regions which have been declared reasons. Firstly, industrialisation, as one of industrially backward on definite criteria. Let the instruments for development has a very us not push aside this particular point which I wide-ranging effect on a number of sectors am making out. The present criteria are like agriculture etc. and, at the same time, it is formulated by the Planning Commission and linked with several other, spheres of our life. areas have been defined as backward and if I Secondly, Sir, this discussion is important have to give the figures, there are about 250 because the hon. Minister has, through his districts which are industrially backward and policy statement, introduced certain new they have been declared as industrially elements in the working and functioning of backward on the definite criteria formulated the Ministry of Industry. Thirdly, Sir, it is by the Planning Commission. How far this important because I come from a region particular policy is going to affect these new which is backward and, therefore, any change backward areas as such? in the policy so far as industrialisation is concerned, is vital for me. Therefore, I have Now, considering the first yardstick, if you decided to express some of my views. Of go into the details, you will find that the course, a number of opinions have already Minister has expanded the list. The list has been expressed here and I would not like to been expanded from 180 to 500 or more. Has repeat them. I would only like to make three the Minister underlined the industries which or four new points altogether. are to be started in the small-scale sector which are going to help production of First of all, I would like to go into the consumer goods? The Minister may see if he merits of the policy statement that the has prepared a list of essential industries as Minister has made in December, from two such. He has categorised it only into small- points of view, from too yardsticks. The first stale sector and tiny sector. I would wish the yardstick is how far his new policy, namely, Minister to have one more category of es. his emphasis on small scale industries, and sential industries in small-scale sector which helping this process, which I call as rural should go to help production of consumer industrialisation process, is going to be goods; I say which would go to help helpful so far as the consumers are concerned. production; they will not produce the And, this is very important. Just as you must consumer goods but they will help production see that Industrialisation must result in more of consumer goods. If he would have prepared employment, similarly we should also see that such a list, at least that should have been men- the production of consumer goods is there in tioned in the policy statement. The list has such a quantity that it raises the living been expanded from 180 to 500 to be reserved standards of our people living below the for the small sector but poverty line 225 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 226 working in that there is no such list or category which I a dream; it would be only a sort of would term as 'essential industries' in the bureaucratic set up in each district. This is interest of the consumer as such. And when I necessary so far as the field set-up is say 'consumer', I mean the common man who concerned. May I know from the hon. belongs to economically weaker section in the Minister whether some guidelines have been country. That should have been the attempt issued in regard to the functioning of these while bringing in a new industrial policy, industrial centres? I do not know. At least, I particularly when you are trying to aim at have no information that such guidelines have rural industrialisation. I see no such cate- been issued to the States to see that these gorisation. I wish the Industry Minister gives industrial centres function in a particular way consideration to this point. and help the small scale industries or the tiny sector as such. In doing that, they should see Secondly, the Industry Minister, in order to that they give preference to the small-scale give a fillip to the small-scale sector and tiny industries which are consumer-oriented. I sector, has planned for having one roof which would put it that way. Has he issued some he has called in his policy statement as district guidelines or not? This is the second point to industries centre. What would it mean so far which I would like to draw the attention of as the backward areas or the backward the hon. Minister so far as this new set-up is districts are concerned? There have been concerned. many concepts evolved up till now for industrially backward districts. There have The third point which I would like to raise been concepts of growth centres; there have for the consideration of the hon. Miniser is: been concepts for a special treatment to the What about the powers for these officers or backward districts giving them weightage in these men incharge of these district centres? financial assistance. Will the Minister clarify There are various institutions. There are that in having this new set up, what will various infrastructures agencies. There are happen to those concepts? Are they going to some Government agencies. There are so be neglected to the background? What about many commercial banks and nationalised the backward districts already declared as banks. What powers these officers and these backward? Will they be given some special men incharge of these industrial centres will treatment? These are the questions which arise have to co-ordinate the activities so that the in my mind as a member coming from the entrepreneurs wishing to set up small-scale backward area. These points should be industries get help on the spot without any clarified by the Minister of Industry. delay? What about the powers? It should be spelt out. Otherwise, keeping it loose would Then, with regard to the set up of one roof only add to the delays so far as the initiation in each district or one industrial centre in each of small-scale industries is concerned. district, there are about 400 or 410 districts in our country. It would mean 400 district cen- The last point is very important so far as the tres. It would mean manning all these district small-scale industries are concerned. The long centres by men who should have—if at all this arm of the large industry or large houses will policy of rural industrialisation has to succeed reach the rural areas; it will go to the rural —vision as well as devotion. Has he thought areas now. Instances have been mentioned. of it? If he has not thought of it, if he has not Take, for example, Bata. They are mopping up thought 0f putting up men of devotion and all the production that is there in the shoe zeal, then all these plans of giving a fiillip to industry. They make purchases at a lower I the small-scale industries would be only price and sell at a higher price as 259 R.S.—8. 227 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 228 working [Shri S. K. Vaishampayen] dispersal of industries. Therefore, Government should see that a proper their products. What protection is there direction is given to the effect that licences so far as the products or the goods that are should be refused for setting up new produced by the small-scale industries are industrial units on peripherics of metropolitan concerned? Some protection should be cities with one million population and in given. Otherwise, the small-scale industries urban areas with Ave lakhs population. which will come up in the initial enthusiasm of this policy would wither away because Then, when applications for setting up new their products will not be marketed properly industrial units are considered, the and they will not be able to get a proper price entrepreneurs should be directed to establish for their products. Therefore, it is these industries in the backward districts necessary that instructions should be issued and in the backward areas. Lastly, in the to the Government departments, parti- Industrial Policy, there is no categorical cularly, those departments which make declaration in regard to the starting of public purchases on behalf of the Government. sector undertakings both in the Centre and in The products which are produced by the States sector. I say this because setting the small-scale industries should be up of public sector projects both in the purchased by the D.G.S. & D. or the Centre and in the States sector would be an Supply Department or the purchase instrument in creating a new industrial climate. department. Only if this is done, the small- And I am of this firm opinion that any new scale industries will be able to survive. public sector project both at the Central and the State levels shoul^ be opened in a Then, Sir, I have only two more points backward area. I come from a backward which I would like to place before this area like Marathwada. "We have been House and the hon. Minister. Firstly, I trying for locating a public sector project welcome the policy of dispersal of there, but that public sector project is not industries and the announcement that no sanctioned. It is taken away somewhere in new industrial licence will be given to any an area which is already full of industrial unit in metropolitan cities having industries. Thus the benefit of having a a population of one million or in urban areas public sector project in a backward area is lost. having a population of five lakhs. It is My request to the Industry Minister is that allright. But has he given any directions? he should categorically say what will be the Has he given the direction that these new policy with regard to the opening of new public units which would like to come up should sector projects in backward areas. Thank you. be located in the backward areas. This is also a direction which should be given. If SHRI M. R. KRISHNA (Andhra Pradesh); this direction is not given, the new industrial Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, the Minister units will try to enlarge themselves on the certainly needs the encouragement of this periphery of the metropolitan cities. This is House and also the support from the entire happening. This has happened so far as country for the bold steps which he is trying Bombay is concerned. In the Bom-foay- to take. At jleast the attempt which he is Thana area, this policy was adopted by the honestly making, well, that requires Maharashtra Government. New industrial encouragement from the entire country. He units have come up on the periphery of the also knows that the mood of the country today Bombay and the Thana areas. They started is that whatever promises have been made all the industries, they got all the incentives and these years should be ful- they got all the assistance from the Government and, that way, they have tried to escape from this policy of

229 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 230 working filled and implemented. Therefore, eveii though so'me of the Members have expressed monopoly houses had to be enriched because certain doubts about his capacity to convince the makers of modern India wanted that the other members of the Cabinet, I think Shri country should first be industrialised. They George Fernandes will be able to score knew that simply agricultural development through since the policies which he is going would only enlarge the feudal system in this tc adopt are nothing new, they are the policies country and, therefore, they wanted that which are really demanded and needed for the industrialisation should take place. In the welfare of this country. Therefore, he will be process, it had become imperative to help having the backing of the entire House and some of the existing industries because they the country. had the technical know-how, they had contacts all over the world and they were Sir, industrial development of any country having the best markets in the world where is more essential than the agricultural they could sell their products. At the same development for one reason that the industrial time, they can cripple any new-comer in the development certainly ensures a casteless field. We have seen how some of the indus- society and also takes the country towards trial houses which sprang up aftei socialism. The makers of modern India, like Independence have been crushed by some of Shri Jawaharlal Nehru, had a lot of the houses like Birlas and Tatas. Therefore, difficulties to implement , the policies which Sir, taking this experience into account, the the Congress and various other political great leader had chosen to introduce the public parties had assured this nation. It is not an sector industries without harming the private easy task for any one to make dent into the industries, allowing the private industries to existing industry. The industrial development grow, helping the private industries t0 get all of this country was purely in the hands of the money they wanted, including the tariff people who are today monopolists. The concessions. Some of the industries got tariff bigger giants, like Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, concessions for years together. The steel Shri Krishna Menon and Shri T. T. factories of Tatas, the car factories of Birlas Krishnamachari, had not only to face the have enjoyed tariff concessions for years Cabinet colleagues, but they had to face the together. The leaders of this country never industrialists who are not only controlling the wanted t0 kill any industry which was really economy of this country, but als0 the press of producing goods for the local market and also this country. Therefore, for a person like Shri for export. While doing so, they also Fernandes to attempt to bring discipline and encouraged the public sector. When public also to decentralise industries is not a joke. sector industries were started, both in the None of the Members wh0 have participated Defence as well as in other Departments, the in this discussion has said that the policies amount of criticism levelled against these which Mr. George is going to follow are public sector units was something which we something bad to the country. On the other cannot forget. Even those people who are hand, everyone wanted that the policies supposed to be the biggest national leaders should be seriously implemented and he cast a lot of doubts and called even Jawaharlal should not cow down to the biggest Nehru a Communist. Today the public sector industrialists or even to the powerful undertakings have gained a lot of experience Ministers in his Cabinet. None of them said and biggest national leaders cast a lot of that the policies are bad. Therefore, Sir, I also experience and they have started really paying would like to join with other friends who dividends, this Govern- have spoken against these monopoly houses. Sir, these 231 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA] of Min. of Industry 232 working [Shri M. R. Krishna] ment financial agencies like the LIC? Sir, ment should be able to not only maintain probably in the beginning because of the these undertakings, but they should be in a advice given by the officials there was only position to increase the number of public one system introduced, namely, whenever a sector industries. private industry borrowed money from the Industrial Finance Corporation, a Sir, many of my friends advocated that representative of the Industrial Finance some of these big houses should be Corporation or the L.I.C. was sent to their nationalised. Now, the Government of India meeting as one of the directors. This was just has been taking over the sick mills and there a check on these industries from misusing the is also provision that the Government can funds. But that does not take the industry too take over any factory, even in the private far. There were many instances where such a sector, which is mismanaged. If the factory nominee reaped advantage out of this system. owners are not paying the labour properly, if This Government nominee during the last the mill-owners are not having the interests of days of his service would want to make sure the country at heart, such mills can be taken that after his retirement he found comfortable over by the Government. If Mr. George berth in some of these industries. Either he Fernandes and his Government could declare became an adviser or a director. And for that the policy that those industries which are all that he had to do was t0 get the permission faltering and defaulting could be taken over, of the Government of India. This kind of all that the Government has to do today is to system does not help either t0 discipline the give the reasons, or give the causes. And the private industry or help in the requirement of causes can be plenty. Many of the industrial the country, namely, to bring them under the houses have not been able to utilise the government control. Therefore, this system of amounts set apart for the construction of allowing the workers to participate... (Time houses for the labour. Many of the industrial Bell rings) I do not think I have taken even houses are not in a position to maintain cost- five minutes. accounting. There are many houses which do THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI U. K. not have proper relations with the labour. LAKSHMANA GOWDA); You have taken There are hundred and one causes which ten minutes. Therefore, I have to restrict the could be taken advantage of by the time, otherwise we cannot cover every Government to nationalise some of these speaker. industries. Unle?s this is done, there cannot be discipline in the private sector industries. SHRI M. R. KRISHNA: I am going so fast The previous Government had said that in order to complete my speech. there should be participation of labour in management in most of the industries. Now THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI U. K. when the Government ia thinking of LAKSHMANA GOWDA): You have to run nationalising the industries, is there anything faster, Mr. Krishna. wrong, or is it not a trial worth trying to introduce this as a compulsory measure to see SHRI M. R. KRISHNA; The Minister has that labour participation is definitely ensured pronounced the Government policy that if the in almost all the industries which are getting rural areas are to develop, rural finances from the Industrial Finance industrialisation will have to take place. This Corporation and from other Govern- is a good system. But this is nothing new. For rural development very many 233 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 234 working Committees have been constituted such as the should be given some of the small-scale Pande Committee, the Wanchoo Committee industries and various other industries, but to determine whicn are the backward areas. most, of the people would be suitable only to There were other committees also to suggest become watch and ward people or security industries which could be taken to the rural officers. Even the biggest General would not areas. But for all these year rural development be able to manage industries because it is not did not take place. The rural areas are in the in their blood and they have not been manag- same old fashion as they were. For example, ing industries; it is a completely new thing to my own State, namely Andhra Pradesh, them. Similarly, take members of the weaker excepting the city of Hydera. bad, not even sections. It is not something which you can Secunderabad, is just a desert. Though there give over and they could take over. are many areas in Andhra Pradesh where various precious minerals are avai'abJe, not Now, for example, take the small-scale even a single industry exists. Therefore, Sir, industry. It is good that they want to rural development just does not mean decentralize the bigger industries and. the anything. If the Minister or the Members were small-scale industries have come into being to say that rural development will take place, because of that. I would request Mr. George them proper planning will have to be done. Fer-nandes to find out which category cf people are having this small-scale industry, who takes these Rs. 8-10 lakh grants from the May I tell the hon'ble Minister that I am Government. If he takes the statistics he will definitely not happy with the functioning of find that none of the poorer classes have the Khadi and Village Industries Board. I benefited from the small-scale industry. It is attach greatest importance to khadi and mostly the big business houses because it is village industries since this was considered to they who have got the certainty and the be an ideal thing for developing the rural assured market for their products. Therefore, areas particularly the backward ones. But aftei the hig industrialist makes one of his family spending so many thousands °£ crores I do members or someone of his community start a not think it has helped the rural population in small-scale industry—because he has got the a big way. I have written a letter to the technical know-how and a ready market. That Minister also to think of the rural areas and type of thing is not available to the common also to constitute certain expert committees man who starts a small-scale industry. Now he which may be conversant with the rural areas. is reserving a lot of things for the small-scale I also know about the backwardness of the industry. He has been successful in certain rural areas and then I would suggest what are things like matches and soap.- But t0 the industries that could be located there. decentralize a big thing and allow the small man to take over, it needs a lot of training. If Sir, it does not help anybody if ii is just you want to give me Rs. 10 lakhs and ask me said that the rural areas could be developed. to start a business, it is impossible for me. When I was in the Defence Ministry I wanted Even Mr. George Fernandes will not be able defence personnel who retired from service in to start any industry; he requires previous big numbers to be associated with these experience for that. And that experience can industries. Some thousands of men and come only by associating somebody- officers retire every year. We wanted that connected with the industry. Otherwise it is some of these people impossible. Therefore, Mr. George 235 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 236 working [Shri M. R. Krishna] industry, in the year 1976-77, the pro. duction Fernandes will have to think seriously as to was worth Rs. 829 crores and the profit was Rs. 65 crores. The target fixed for 1977-78 how we can help the weaker sections, what was Rs. 1013 crores, but during the last 10 type of training he would like to give them months the production has come only to Rs. and what type of industries he would like 450 crores. This is the position as far as the them to start. These are vital things which the heavy industry is concerned. This means that Minister and the Government will have to there would be a loss. What is the reason for think of and they will have t0 give this fall also? It is only because the consideration to this. Government, or the .Ministry of Industry, is having a very wrong conception about the Sir, since you and the Minister for heavy industry. What is it due to, I do not Parliamentary Affairs are really angry with know. Maybe that the policy which they have me, I do not want to prolong my speech. announced . . . Thank you. AN HON. MEMBER: Because of their Raj THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI U. K. Guru. LAKSHMANA GOWDA): Prof. Kamble, you can take ten minutes. This is the third PROF. N. M. KAMBLE: May be because round and it has to be restricted in ten minutes of their Raj Guru who has written a book. But or less. one thing is certain that unless the small-scale sector, the cottage industry and the heavy PROF. N. M. KAMBLE (Maharashtra); industry ccme together, the stress which you Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, the Ministry of lay on the agricultural sector and the small- Industry plays a very important part—I may scale sector will not be achieved. The say a pivotal role—in the life of a developing Industrial Policy Resolution had come as late country because the economic progress of the as December, 1977. They took nearly 10 country and the generation of employment months for the formulation of the policy. Of largely depend on the performance of this course, the Minister of Industry had on many Ministry. occasions issued statements on the same lines. But actually, as my friend, Mishraji, earlier We had very high hopes when, after 30 told, because of the various groups having years, a Government with a new look took various policies, having various attitudes, it over the reins of thi9 country and specially may not be possible for the Minister of when my friend, a stormy petrel with a Industry to achieve consensus on the socialistic background, became the Minister industrial policy. Even today I find that, of Industry. But when, we look at these two though the policy statement is issued, the fronts, that is, economic progress of the economic policy of the Finance Minister and country and generation of employment and in the industrial policy of the Minister of that background if we look at the performance Industry have not matched together. The of the Ministry of Industry, it is very dis- policy of the present Minister of Industry lays appointing and also very dismal. stress on small-scale, cottage and household and rural sectors. But can this alone achieve Sir, I do not want t0 go int0 the jugglery of the goal of economic growth and the statistics but I would like to give two generation of employment? I do not think so. instances as far as industrial growth is Sir, they have announced from the house-tops concerned. that within 10 years unemployment would be In 1976.77, the industrial eradicated. I do not know whether with this 5 P.M. growth was 10.6 per cent, but policy and with last year up to December it was onJ t 4 per cent. Why has it come down? Then if we look at the heavy

237 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 238 working this pace they will be in a position to do it. Sir, a matter of fact, Sir, the Monopolies and as far as the generation of employment ig Restrictive Trade Practices Com-mision has concerned, I will just quote two instances. In miserably failed to impose curbs on the the small scale sector, take, for instance, the growth of these monopolies and these foreign Bidi industry. In the Bidi industry, nearly three companies which produce consumer goods. I million workers work today. But because of do not know what the Minister of Industry is the new tax that is levied on bidi, the cigarette going to do about them. What is the policy as industry is benefited and these three million far as the multinationals are concerned? At bidi workers have been affected. Similarly, least I have failed to understand it. In the take another small-scale industry in Kerala, beginning at least we had high hopes when the the coir industry. There also nearly 1J lakh Minister of Industry announced that in our people are there. But, because of issuing country these multinationals have no place. licences for mechanisation, these people have But, 1 do not know what happened after his been affected. I do not know what the report of visit to the Soviet Union. Probably he might the Sivaraman Committee is going to be and have thought that if a country like Russia how the Government is going to implement could adjust with the multinationals, we could that particular report. Sir, ic is heartening to also do so. Just stopping one Coca Cola note that because of this new policy, the company does not even touch the fringe of the consumer goods would be mostly produced by problem because the West German the small scale and the cottage industries. multinationals and the American Many of the earlier speakers have made out multinationals are still there in tact. They are this point. The reserve list,' as a matter of fact, enjoying at our cost and are looting our has been shot up from 180 items to 504 items, country. Sir, we should be very careful about and Shri Sankar Ghose has already pointed out these multinationals. What does rolling a red how this list has been inflated by adding the carpet for them would mean? If we allow same products in different names. them to operate without any restrictions, they would not only ruin our industries, but I am But one thing is there, Sir. Unless there are afraid they will also ruin our public sector and curbs on the monopoly houses and the also would blow up our democratic structure. multinationals and also on the foreign I would not go into the details, but we know capitalists, we are not going to achieve this how these multinationals and these big object. Is the Government prepared to have industrialists rule over the rulers. Even the curbs on these multinationals and foreign rulers are being ruled by them. Therefore, I capitalists? Is it prepared to nationalise would request the Minister of Industry to forthwith the big houses and. the big finally decide and announce the policy monopolies? I do not think. Of course, much regarding these multinationals. is heard now-a-days in the Janata Government policies and from their party executives. Some Now, the industrial policy, as I have stated people say that there are 20 big houses; some just now and as many of the speakers have say, 100 big houses; "some, 75 big houses. also stated, is just to encourage the cottage But one thing is certain. About 800 industries and the rural sector so that there corporations are controlled by these big should be employment growth and consumer houses and monopolies. If the Government goods. All these big houses should be really wishes that the small scale sector should prevented from taking advantage. But unless be encouraged, then the first thing it should do we have an integrated policy on supply of raw is to nationalise the multinationals and the big materials to these small scale industries, houses. As unless we 239 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 240 working [Prof. N. M. Kamble] provide marketing the weaker sections of the society; the facilities, unless we can give them proper Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are guidance through the district industrial centres treated as untouchables there. You will find in which we are now going to have and unless these public sector undertakings that the we break the linkage, as has been stated by so percentage that is granted under the Consti- many speakers, between the big houses and tution to tha Scheduled Castes and Scheduled the small scale industries which as a matter of Tribes is not at all observed. Leave aside the fact act as subsidiaries or as ancillaries of big posts, even at the lower level these weaker these big industries, the policy which has been sections have not been given any chance announced is not going to be a successful one. whatsoever. My friend, Mr. Krishna, just now pointed out that whichever, be the THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI U. K. Government in power and whichever be the LAKSHMANA GOWDA); Professor, you industrial policy of that Government it must be such that these weaker sections must find a will have to wind up. p;ace in it. Otherwise, if those who form one- PROF. N. M. KAMBLE: Two fifth of the population of this country are minutes, Sir. Now, I come to sick deprived of their due place in any industrial units. The hon. Minister has development, industrial or otherwise, that announced that workers' participation in such particular policy of that Government will not units will be the first priority. But why these succeed. With these words, Sir, I conclude. units fall sick, I do not know. Many THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI U. K. people have said here that because of mis- LAKSHMANA GOWDA): Dr. Zakaria, you management, because of shortage of will have to take just ten minutes. power, because of so many other things, these units become sick. This has DR. RAFIQ ZAKARIA (Maharashtra): I actually become a disease. And we go and will try to be within time. Mr. Vice-Chairman, take over these sick units not when they are Sir, Mr. George Fernandes is a good friend of sick but when they are completely dead. I mine, but I am afraid he is getting increas. would suggest to the Government that as soon ingly lost in the Janata jungle I have affection as we come to know that a particular unit is for him and, therefore, I cannot doubt his likely to be sick, the Government must take all sincerity of purpose. A lot has been said about efforts to take it over and as far as possible, as the Industrial Policy of the Government by announced by the Minister of Industry, to have Members before me. I have, therefore, no ivorkers' participation in that parti-;ular intention of repeating what has been urged sick unit. Sir, we are, as a natter of here. But there is one aspect of this Industrial fact, pumping enormous unds into these Policy, a very healthy aspect, to which I sick units. There-ore, it is our bounden would like to draw the pointed attention of the duty to see hat no sick units are taken over hon. Minister. when hey are only scrap, that we do not ake the liability and thereafter plose own. [The Vice-Chairman (Shri Syed Nizam -ud- Din) in the Chair] Sir, I would make one request to ie Minister of Industry regarding )e public I am reinforced in my urge to do so in view sector units. Of course, we •e all praise for of the declaration or resolution of the national them. But the fat-tlaried administrative set- executive of the Janata Party which has ups which recommended to the Government e working in these public sector dts are so decentralisation of the private corporate sector dangerous, especially to and sug-

241 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 242 working gested that because of the concentration of Rs. 2 crores and 60 lakhs. The Screening economic power in the hands of a few big Commitee for industrial approvals consisting houses, temptation to abuse that power is of twelve top officers representing different an ever-present danger. Mr. George departments of the Government, at its meeting Fernandes has fought against this danger all held on 27th October, 1977, came to the through his public life, and, I am, therefore, conclusion that the existing establish, ment quite prepared to believe that he is not only and its licensed capacity of containers was in sincere but keen to see that this power is not excess of demand, and took a decision to only curbed- but ultimately finished. But I reject the proposal. On 13th December, 1977 would like to remind him that when our party Mr. Fernandes' Ministry conveyed to the was in Government, we also made similar Indian Tool Manufacturing Company that the declarations—the Monopolies Commission, Government decided to treat the application the various restrictions that were put on the of this Birla concern as closed. Yet, in spite of big houses. But what has been the result? the Screening Committee's finding, shortly Declarations have been there, but whenever thereafter, on 31st December, 1977—earlier they come up for implementation, the decision was conveyed on 13th December, somehow or the other, vested interests are So 1977—the company's application was entrenched everywhere, that we are never suddenly approved. able to fulfil these declarations, we are never able to implement the policy. I would like to I wrauld like to know from Mr. Fernandes quote a couplet to my friend, Mr. George how. and why such a change came about in Fernandes, a couplet of the Chairman >f our contravention of the Screening Committee's House Committee, Mr. Arif, because it is decision and in contravention of the declared very apt and very signi-icant: industrial policy of this Government, about which I know Mr. Fernandes is sincere and keen.

Now,, the total installed capacity 'of : do not want that this should be rue as containers in India is over 30,000 per year. far as my friend, Mr. George Ternandes, is This includes two public sector units—Balmer concerned. And what I im going to tell him— Lawrie in Cochin and Bridge and Roof I have already aken him into confidence—will Limited in Calcutta, each with a capacity of come is a surprise to him. I feel it is like i bit 5,000 containers per year. This capacity of of a bomb which I am going to ixplode. I 30,000 containers per year is far in excess of have in my possession a ase which is typical the demands and cannot be utilised at least for oi our declara- ion on one side and failure in the next ten years. Two units have already the mplementation of that declaration on he been established in Maharashtra with an other. And that is the case of he Indian installed capacity of 8,600 containers. Besides, Tool Manufacturing Com- any Limited, a Birla the capacity at the Bombay port is also so concern. It has ieen so managed that none limited. The loaded containers come with of the 5irlas are there on the Board of import cargo and when emptied at the port >irectors. But Mr. Ashok Birla is the adviser these are used for export cargo. At the most to that company. Now, this ompany applied the Bombay port can presently inject 500 to for an industrial cence in August, 1977 for 1,000 containers per year in the world con- rnanufac- iring 5000 marine containers. tainer traffic. These two factories in The )cation of the factory is in Thana in ly Maharashtra and the two public sector units State. Their capital outlay is only will remain unutilised for several years. The Birlas have 243 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 244 working [Dr. Rafiq Zakaria] There is only one other point to which I contended that there is a world capacity and would like to make a reference and that is somehow or the (other they would be able to about the special concessions that are given to see that this capacity is utilised. If this Birla the backward areas. Sometime ago Mr. concern is allowed to be established, the Fernandes visited Aurangabad. public sector units and the other small private Now, that happened to be my constituency units will certainly be elbowed out. They will as far as my Assembly career was concerned be finished and the Birla Concern will and for fifteen years I, represented it and I am certainly flourish. But is that the policy of this in love with it. With great difficulties, we Government? Is that the policy of my friend, have been able to develop Aurangabad in- Mr. George Fernandes. dustrially. But, in the last ten years, despite all our efforts and despite all the concessions Not \only that. There is another important given by the Government, still I cannot say aspect to which I would like to draw the that it has reached the take-off stage. But, attenetion of the Industries Minister. It is the suddenly, I am told that the Government is policy of his Government that even the thinking of withdrawing all those concessions Government units must seek technical know- that are being given to the backward areas, how from i-he Indian parties only, unless especially the backward areas in the urban there are very exceptional circumstances. But regions, because the feeling is that they have in this particular case, despite the fact that got already industrialised. Now, please do not there is no special technical know-how withdraw these concessions at a time when required, this particular company is authorised these industrial areas are getting consolidated. to give a lumpsum royalty • f Ri i,0 lakhs. They need a little more attention, a little Why has this special treatment been received miore treatment of a special kind, so that we by the House of Birlas in contravention of not would be able to see that they are established only the industrial policy which Mr. George on a sound footing. Fernandes announced some time ago, but also In glaring contravention of what the National Sir, I am grateful to you for the time that Executive of the Janata Party has only you have given me. As I said earlier, there are recently declared I know that it must have many aspects. But i do not want to dilate happened at a lower level. I am quite prepared upon them now. There was this particular to toelive that the Minister of Industries matter which disturbed me greatly and I felt cannot be aware of everything that goes on in that it was my duty, after taking1 the Minister his Ministry. I have myself been a Minister of Industry into confidence, to place it before for more than fifteen years and, therefore, I this House. Thank you, Sir. will hesitate very much to put the blame at the door of Mr. Fernandes.

What I want to emphasize upon Mr. George Fernandes is that our policy is getting diluted because of the whole paraphernalia which is there. These big houses are so powerful that whatever we may say, they see ito it that whatever they want,, they get.

245 D«c«ssion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 246 working

247 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 248 working

249 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 250 working

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. Vice- Chairman, Sir, I am grateful for the criticism that has been made of the industrial policy and also of the performance of my Government in general and the Industry Ministry in particular during the last year. A lot of criticism has been very constructive and I would like to assure the hon. Members that our Government will benefit from it. And in the course of my work in the coming months, I shall try to personally benefit from it. There has also been criticism that was not so constructive. But I can certainly appreciate the thinking of those Members who felt that our Industrial Policy has noth- ing to offer and that if anything it has taken the country back not 15 or 20 or 30 years but 500 years.

251 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 252 working SHRI N. G. RANGA: Wh|o said that? Hon. Members were to express concern and SHRI GEOHGE FERNANDES: A couple distress and some were also upset that we are of hon. Members said that, I can only say that I thinking within the timeframe of ten years. sympathise with those Members who see no They wondered whether we had plans to stay good in «'ur Industrial Policy even while I on for ten years. We have a mandate of five hope that as days go by) they will have years of which one year is over. And we occasions to revise their views. Mr. Sankar shall not extend the life of Parliament. Ghose was to say that our policy is nothing but That I would like to assure the hon. Members. an appendage of the 1956 Industrial Policy In fact, the life that was extended for six Resolution. Having said that, he went on to years,, thank God and thank the people of this attack it. If our policy is nothing but the 1956 country, it ended with six years. Even that is Resolution, then I see no reason why Mr. now going to be set right with the Sankar Ghose should attack our policy. He Constitutional Amendment, an amendment should be very happy because that was the to the earlier amendment, to make Parlia- policy he was implementing till two years ago. ment and legislatures have a life of only five A'nd if we are now, concerned with years. But, when you plan, Mr. Vice- implementing the same policy, then why is the Chairman, you do not plan only for five years. quarrel? What is it that you want t0 find fault The planner, the administrator, must have a within that case? May be, this is a part of the long-range perspective. You cannot have a confusion, and I only hope again that in course perspective only of today because if you have of time people learn to come out of this the perspective only of today then the confusion in wjsich they were operating for a perspective is not only of today, it comes larg'e number of years. Our policy, Mr. Vice- only to you and this is what happened with the Chairman, Sir, does make a complete hon. gentlemen all these years. This is what departure from the 1956 Industrial Policy. happened. I was asked about cement. While we say that we are making a departure How come that as soon as the Janata from the 1956 Industrial Policy it does njot Government came into office cement mean that we are now going 500 years back or disappeared? The planning was not for a even 30 years back. We have consistently said length of time and that is why in the year 1975, that there is room for the large, for the medium in the year 1976 and in the year 1977, and for the small. But the thrust of our policy during all these three years, the annual is (on the small, the cottage, the household, the increase and capacity installed was only rural. Why? Because there is nothing else that of the Drder of two lakh tonnes against the one ca*i do today. If this country has just now additional requirement of twenty lakh tonnes 10,000 megawatts of additional electricity, this per year Then, how could you have u'ould not be our industrial policy. But it is go- cement? It takes three years to put up ing to take us next five years to have another new plants. But this is not to discuss the 20,000 megawatts of electricity. By then we cement question. I will come to it later. This will have more problems because just now we is only to suggest that the planner's job, the have inherited only 40 million unemployed, administrator's job is not only to think and in the course of the next ten years, we are of today (or of tomorrow; his job is to think going to have 60 million unemployed and each far ahead. And, if we have got the time-frame years 6 million are coming into the of ten years —in my own opinion the ten- employment marke t years time frame is also primarily concerned with the problems of unemployment—it is not just a ten year time frame; we have a much longer perspective than that and it is not a

253 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 254 working perspective of sticking to the chair by hook or concretise this question today. And, while by crook. This is not the perspective. The concretising it, we try to find out what the perspective is what to do with this country? areas are where jobs can be created How to build this country? That is the pers- immediately and how they can be created pective. And, it is in that perspective that we immediately. Some hon. Members were to have a ten-year plan, that we have outlined a suggest that there is nothing new; the Khadi ten-year plan for eradicating unemployment and Village Industries Commission has been which was very systematically, in a very there, handlooms have been there and the planned way, built in this country in the last village industries have been there. What is thirty years through five Five-Year Plans and new? Well, firstly, it is the thrust, and, three One-Year Plans. secondly, which I consider is perhaps still SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: Mr. more important, it is the determinatibn to Minister, will you kindly tell us whether the implement our policies. I do not certainly unemployment graph in the course of the last want my work to be judged by what we are one year has gone up or gone down? saying today or by what we said yesterday or SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I hope the by what we shall be saying tomorrow because hon. Member will not interrupt me. I did not as Ministers we have a large number of interrupt any single Member while any one of former Ministers 'xiow occupying the them was speaking. I hope the hon. Members Benches. As Ministers we make lots of will show me the same consideration. I shall speeches, some of them totally unnecessary. reply t|o all the points, Mr. Vice-Chairman. I But then these are occupational—I would not hope the House will have the time and the say 'hazards' though sometimes I feel they are patience to listen to me. I shall answer all the hazards but these are . . . points, including the graph of unemployment. SHRI VIREN J. SHAH; Occupational There is not any single point which any hon. pleasures. Member has raised which I am not competent >or capable of answering and metting, to the SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: No, these best of my ability, of course. are npt occupational pleasures either. A lot of Therefore, if we have this policy where the time is wasted in making speeches though emphasis, as I said, is on the rural, on the they need not be made. Somehow, everyone small, on the cottage and on the household gets into this act and I find that I am also sectors, the objective and the immediate task getting into it though I hate it and I would like is to provide employment to 40 million to get out of it; but somehow, one gets unemployed who are there today and to involved into it. And the All-India Radio goes another 60 million who will be coming in the on saying: "Mantri ne kaha". People at some unemployment market in the next ten years, point ;of time are bound to get bored in at the rate of six million every year, and that hearing all the while what the Minister said, within the next ten years we solve this not what the Minister did. So, we would problem. certainly like to be judged not by our Sir, we have had enough of abstract intentions, not by our utterances but by our discussion on eradicating poverty, quitting actions and \our performance. You can judge poverty. Quitting poverty was the slogan in us on our one year's performance as a large English; wrong grammar also apart from the number of hon. Members have tried to judge wrong slogan. Now we have had all this but 1 will come to that later. abstruct discussion for years. We As far as the implementation of our industrial policy is concerned, we certainly want to be judged by what we do with our policy. We have; 255 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 256 working [Shri George Fernandes] taken certain from 23rd December, we decided th no new specific decisions, Mr. Vice-Chairman. We licences should be given i any moment to have said that from now on, that is, from the an entrepreneur vu less he wants to set up an 23rd of December, any town 'or city with a industr or wants to invest his money o'n & population of half a million, shall not have industry or he wants to expand a industry in any more new industrial licences issued. Now, the rural area, and sma ler towns. They for years, everybody appealed to the industria- argue on one poir and that is a very alists: "You must go to rural areas because interesting point-when I tried to discuss that is where the masses are; that is where the with then with the captains of the people are. You must g0 and serve them industr; their Chambers of Commerce there." We decided that appeals to the indus- an Federations and all of them to th trialists are not going to work. Whatever your metropolitan cities of this country-and ideological colour or convictions or whatever while talking to them, they wou] raise this your individual loyalities to who so ever, no point, and including th managers, they appeals are going to work. People are accu- would raise th: point: "How can we go to stomed t0 a style of life. There is a certain the rur? aresas? Where is the culture that has been cultivated in this country infrastruc ture" "What is infrastructure?" over the years and the people are accustomed ask them. "Water and railways they to it and they are not going to the rural areas. reply. I had to tell them the there are Neither the industrialists nor anybody else is 7,000 railway stations i India and there willing to go to the rural area. We are having a is more water i rural areas than urban problem in finding officials t0 go to rural areas an even urban areas get their areas. When I called a meeting of the Minis- wate from the rural areas. In Bombay ters of Industries of the State Governments to they get water from Vaitarni, whic is 100 discuss our industrial policy, and later a kilometrVs awav frcm Bcsnbaj They spend a meeting of the officials of the state lot of money to get tha water. The Governments, they said: The officials do not industrialist believes tha water is available want to go to the districts, to the backward only in Bombaj But he forgets that districts of Bihar or Madhya Pradesh, to the Vaitarni is onl; 100 Kms. away and if he adivasi districts. Who wants to go there? goes to Nasik, he will get better water, Nobody wants to g0 there because one gets clean er water, even for his potable use. the level of managers, at the level o executives accustomed to a particular style of life. I get and also at the level o industrialists, there more letters frcm the Members of Parliament, is another ver: interesting argument. They Mr. Vice-Chairman, requesting that an official ask 'ther> are infrastructures, but what about or perhaps even some Stenographer who is th' facilities?'. What are the facilities' transferred from Delhi from some corporate Children's education, wife's treatmen and, of office or undertaking in Delhi to a place hun- course, the rest of the thing! that go with it. dred miles away, be retained in Delhi because Where are the faci, lities? In other words, his mother is sick or his wife is expecting, and one is concern ed only with one's own therefore, ne must be retained here. And this facilities Eighty per cent of the people of is the culture. Thig is the culture which we Indij live in the villages. Education of th< have cultivated. We are all a part of thisi So, children, out there; treatment of the we decided that it is no use making appeals to children, out there and essentia things the indus-tlialists. In our policy statement to the people, out there. Bu1 this has never which is now a part of our policy figured in the planning during the last thirty years; nevei figured. People talk today about the kind of India they have built for us 257 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 258 working and for posterity. Eighty per cent of the our policy, I am indeed happy and delighted people of India live in places where the that every State Government has industrialists, the managers and the welcomed it. Today, we have eight officials do not want to go because certain different political parties running the State facilities which are available in the urban Governments in this country. It is not only areas in respect of eduaction, health etc. are the Janata Party, it is not only my party, not available there. Therefore, we decid. ed which is running the administration. Those that now there will be no more appeals and parties which are determined to see that my no more requests. It is the law and it is the party's Government does not survive are also rule. For industries, go out; and. they will running the Governments in some of the States; go out. This is a positive decision. This is a they are also running the administration departure. This is a departure in many in some of the States. But all parties, ways. They will see the socio, logical irrespective of their political ideology and impact of this; they will see the impact of irrespective of their opposition to my party and this on pollution, on urbanisation, on to my Government, have endorsed our diffusion of wealth, on creating the industrial policy. I am delighted at this. I infrastructure in the villages, on setting up am not taying this just to embarrass anybody. schools, communications, roads and health They have seen that the district industrial centres in the villages; they will see the spin- centres are, in fact, going to provide the off from this, Mr. Vice-Chairman. I would stimulus that is required to bring about change urge the hon. Members to have a little in the rural areas. Not solely. After patience. They will see it. This is their all, the entire development of this country is problem. Some of them are sharp enough to not going to be only through the Industry understand this. Some of them are clever Ministry. There is the Ministry 0f enough to realise what we are really Agriculture. There is the Ministry of doing, where the country is going and how in Health. There is the Ministry of Steel. the next two or four years, the policy that There is the Ministry of Petroleum. we have initiated, the policy that we There are umpteen other economic have enunciated and the policy that we Ministries and departments and the whole Gov- are now implementing will have its impact. ernment is concerned with all this. But They know what the impact of this is going to nevertheless, to the extent that additional be on the rural life of this country and this is jobs in this country from now on will have to worrying some of them, as politicians, of be provided only through industry, for a course Since some of them have appealed to greater part, these district industrial centres me not to think as a politician, but as will act as catalysts and they will provide the someone who is concerned with the stimulus to take industries to the rural areas. country, I hope, my hon. friends will also For the first time, all the 460 districts in this have the same thought. I hope, where our country will be covered by these district industrial policy is concerned, they will industrial centres. In the past, experiments had look at it as a new effort of nation- been done with rural industries projects, rural building and not from the shrot realm artisan projects, backward districts and so or the short run of their own political future on. Now, whatever benefits were given in and how that political future may turn regard to backwardness or in regard to certain even bleaker than it is today with the special projects, we are not doing away with success of fhis industrial policy. But this is them. But every district is going to be covered one aspect. by a district industrial centre. Its concern will be to provide the necessary infrastructure We are setting up these district industrial to centres. Despite all the criticism which has been made against 259 RS—9.

259 Discussion on the [ 27 APE. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 260 working [Shri George Fernandes] knowledge, anything and everything that he have industries within the district. wants. And we will make them succeed, Mr. This will function under the 6 Vice-Chairman. We will make the district P.M. overall jurisdiction of the industry centre succeed. We will also use the State Governments. About 112 of other machinery that the Government has had them, may be 120 of them will become over the years. operational in the next four days, on the first SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: How may. By the middle or end of May another 70 many small-scale industries have been closed or 80 will become operational, and by the end down during your one year? of this year, I hope, Mr. Vice-Chair-man, may SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I am be 400 of them will become operational. sorry, I won't be able to give you the statistics Earlier while formulating this resolution or this right now, but I will certain, ly give the policy some of us had a kind of perspective statistics in the next 48 hours. whether it is going to take long time in getting the right type of people, in giving right type of SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: One training and all that because it is not just after another they are closing down. Try to putting one more official in some place and save them. saying. Come forward and industrialise. It is SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: They are not going to happen. Just now, people are closing down and, of course, we win try to being trained, officials are being trained. save them. That is why we are here. We have General Manager in charge of the district no other justification for being here except industrial centre, seven managers looking after trying to save them because I have discovered seven different wings of the khadi and village that over the years the sickness in the small- industry are being trained in marketing, in scale industry is larger than in the large- research and development, in finding out scale industry. finances for the entrepreneur, in finding out the necessary tools, the implements, the machinery, the equipment, identifying the SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: It is our project, identifying even the entrepreneur in task to see that the sickness goes away. It is the district and under one roof, literally under our task to identify the reasons of the sickness one roof. The people had to go from pillar to and to remove post, from one office to another. Up till now them. for a small-scale industry, people had to rush Now, Mr. Vice-Chairman, along with the to the State Capitals. Now it wont be district industry centres, take the other Viecessary any more for anybody to rush to instrument that we are going to use—the any State Capital. He will have to go to the Khadi and Village Industries Commission. district headquarter or wherever the DIO is One °f the Chairman of the Khadj and Village located. Under one roof, just by entering Industries Commission is a Member of this through one door— may be, it may be House now. The Khadi and Village Industries necessary for him to go to two or three Commission is now 22 years old. It was used desks—he gets all his things done to become a but in a limited way, in a very limited way. It small-fcale entrepreneur, in order to set up a was there. I was a Member of Parliament, of small-scale industry. He will get everything, the Lower House for four years and it was from identifying the project to getting the very interesting, Mr. Vice-Chair. man, to find machinery and equipment, from finding out in this country people who made it a the finances and marketing arrangements to profession to snipe at the Khadi and Village getting research and development Industries Commission in Parliament. If one looked to the questions in the Fourth Lok Sabha, there were more questions 26l Diiscusi&pn orHthe [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of,Min. of Industry 262 working asked on corruption and mismanagement, on Khadi and Village Industries Com transfers and all that and all that in the Khadi mission institutions in India. You and Village Ind ustries Commission- have 24,000 institutions, if you want administered units than in any other sector to use them. We are using them and perhaps. There was a lobby which kept we shall use them. We shall give snipping at the Khadi and Village Industries people all the assistance. I shall not Commission, people like me, who otherwise bother the House with statistics and were in the opposition to the Government, but figures. It takes time to lift them who had convictions about khadi, about from the papers and read them out. village industries, about their role, it was left But we a-s pattiij in more money in to a man like me to set up a little lobby for the the Khadi and Village Industries Khadi and Village Industries Commission in Commission this year than was put Parliament. And this happened in 1967. And in the previous three, four, five or six no one allowed that organisation to be really years. We are telling the Khadi and used because the big industry in this Village Industries Commission, "Take country—and the Government of the country as much money as you can spend. No functioned for big industry—saw danger in project, no job which the Khadi and the Khadi and Village Industries Com- Village Industries Commission and its mission, in this little institution run by old institutions through the State Boards Gandhians, or run by people who were newly undertake will suffer for want of motivated—may not be Gandhian but who money. No project, nothing at all will were otherwise motivated—who realised that suffer for want of money. You can India lives ivi the villages and that is where get as much money as you are in a they have to act and create jobs. AH these position to spend". That will be the people—the big industry, the big business— only test—how much you can spend saw to it that somehow this organisation was this year? That money will be made not allowed to grow, that it was constantly available. , j put on the defensive. Maybe there were black sheep and there are still some black sheep. There are black sheep every where. Let none People are concerned about my party of us make a virtue " about our own being having a red flag and a blue flag and my Simon Pure. I do not believe any one of us is Finance Minister, Home Minister, the Prime pure. All of us have our faults. And the Khadi Minister included, come under attack. This is and Village Industries Commission would an old technique with a certain section of the political opinion in this country. We are used have their own black sheep. But under a to it. People like me are particularly used to it. constant barrage of attack, they would be on To some Nehru was very good but Morarji the defensive and the big industry would then was bad. And to some Nehru was very good go on merrily because they saw in this a but Menon was bad. We took the position that danger—in this instrument, in these 24,000 neither Menon was bad, nor Morarji was bad. institutions in the country, little cooperatives There was only one bad man—the man at the run by little people. But imagine, Mr. Vice- top. If the man at the top is good, then it is no Chairman, that is the biggest network of use saying that the man below him is this or stores. There is no greater, what you call, that. Identify the man at the top. If he is really supermarket chain that one sees in America, the man at the top and if he has men down or perhaps even in the Soviet Union. There is below him who are bad, then the man at the no greater super-market cham anywhere in top cannot be good by any yardstick. But this the world than the is the split mind which has been partly the bane of our public life and that still ope, rates in certain areas. And, therefore, Sir, our Finance Minister is always the target of attack—Swatantra 263 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 264 working [Shri George Fertiandes] tor including the powerlooms. I know Party, an old civil servant, moth-eaten—all Comrade Indradeep Sinha was concerned the epithets are used. Mr. Vice-Chairman, for about the powerloom sector and he saw no 30 years the Congress Party ruled this worthwhile shift coming out of the handloom, country. I challenge the hon. Members on the perhaps, because the productivity was more. I other side to produce one budget of the am afraid he stretched that argument too far. I Government of India where a pie was set apart can appreciate his intention. But how long t0 provide drinking water in the rural areas. I does one stretch that argument? On handloom challenge. It was left to Mr. Hirubhai Patel, it is only five metres a day. On powerloom the Finance Minister of the Janata you can have 45 metres a day. Therefore, it is Government, to modify the very first budget, ten times of productivity. Then why not the because we inherited a budget from them. We most modern up to date mills which will give cannot do the budgetary exercise overnight. you much more? Where does one stretch this? The budgetary exercise starts as soon as the I know one need not take any point to current Finance Bill will be passed some time absurdity. There are lot of people who try to next week. Then for next year's budget, the take our industrial policy to absurdity by exercises will start. So it was left to Mr. trying to suggest that anything that can be Hirubhai Patel to provide Rs. 40 crores in the done by hand shall not be done by machine. It very first budget that he was to present, means that the Janata Government left to itself or some of its leaders would do away with SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: You electric fans and have the old style of pankhas are proud of Rs. 1000 crores deficit. where people will sit and pull. One can review things to absurdity. But that certainly is not SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Rs. 40 the way of a debate or argument. We should crores, Sir, and in the current year's budget, know the industrial policy of our country Rs. 60 crores have been provided by Mr. H. which will affect the lives of 630 million M. Patel in the Janata budget. So Rs. 100 people and 700 -million people jn another five crores in ten months have been provided. Mr. years from today. But we have decided that no Ranga, this should make you happy. It was additional loomage will be allowed where left to Mr. H. M. Patel, the Finance Minister power is used. All additional loomage will be of the Janata Government, to provide Rs. 100 provided in the handloom sector. crores within a span of ten months to provide clean drinking water to India's villages. Our friends took Coca-Cola while we are taking SHRI N. G. RANGA: Very good, Sir. water. That is the difference. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES; I know SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: You you are in the wrong place sometimes. There are running very fast. are two aspects of the handloom. One is that we propose to see that the looms are im- SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Coming, proved. Today the weaver who, perhaps, to the Khadi and Village Industries, we are works for four hours, or two hours or three using this institution today to advantage to hours will work for 8 hours and in the process further our industrial policy. will be able to produce more and earn a little Regarding these handlooms and more. We mean to pay him a little mere handicrafts, lin our policy we have decided money. Secondly, we mean to see that that there shall be no additional loomage in more looms are installed. the organised sec- 265 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 266 working The current year's production, that , is, for 77, SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Secondly, the production of handloom cloth in the Sir, I was saying about how to provide to the current year was about 2,300 million metres, people, to those who are in the rural areas, 2,500 million metres. In the next five years more job opportunities through hand-looms our effort is to see that the production in the and handicrafts. We have the All-India handloom sector goes up to at least 3,600 Handicrafts Board—well-meaning people on million or 3,700 million metres. We shall see the Board discussing the kind of handicrafts that he produces still more. Now, is this not a that would adorn, maybe my home or the major shift? This is a major shift. home of Mr. Viren Shah, but not handicrafts really for the masses, for the people. Go to Now we shall use the Handloom Board. In Assam go t0 Tripura. They produce the finest the Handloom Board, it has been in existence bamboo cane baskets anyone would produce for a number of years but it never came to be anywhere in the world, but every shop is full used to Ihe extent it should have been used. of plastic baskets produced in Bombay and Now we mean to keep it up, provide it more shipped all the way to Tripura. Sir, it is a money and see that it is used effectively not different culture which has developed over only to produce more cloth because in the the last several years. dynamic decade the use of cloth per capita in this country kept declining, from 16 metres Last year our handicrafts exports were \Rs. P^r head per annum to 13.5 or so metres per 400 crores. This includes about Rs. 200 crores head per annum. of jewellery. And of the remaining Rs. 200 crores, about 60 crores were carpets. Now I shall illustrate how we are going about this SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: Most job. At the beginning of our Government, we probably because of the quality of the cloth. decided to set up 190 training units for carpet weavers, boys and girls, where we would give SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES; I am glad them stipend and where we would provide that my friend is now discovering new them with training and make them self- justification for providing lesser cloth to our employed people at the end of six months of people. training, where they would be earning even while they were under training. We started this SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: work in right earnest, and instead of the tar- Durability is changing. That you must know. geted 190 training centres we ended the year with 490 training centres in operation. And we provided training for 20,500 young boys and SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I am glad girls not only in the tw0 carpet-producing that my friend now discovers that styles have States of the country—Jammu and Kashmir changed and people are wearing more durable and Uttar Pradesh—but also in those States cloth. In other words, there is so much afflu- where people believed one could not produce ence in the country during the last ten years carpets—in Karnataka, Gujarat, Maharashtra, in the "Dynamic Decade" that the Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and Bihar. In all consumption of cloth per capita declined these States we were able to set up carpet from 16 metres to 13.5 metres. I am sure the training centres and provide jobs. It is jobs country will be delighted to hear this. People being created. People ask: Have you been able will be delighted to hear this outside this to create jobs? Well, in this one house also.

SHRI PILOO MODY: These are new fashions in nudity. 267 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 268 working [Shri George Fernandes] missioning 220 MW of additional little sector, just through the training centres electricity generating capacity in the north of that we set up—and I am not talking of the Bihar within the next three years, work has fillip that we gave to the carpet industry in started. We have changed that. general, I am not talking of the overall Nevertheless, it takes three years time stimulus that the carpet industry has received to put up a new power because of a series of other measures but I am generator. It takes time to provide talking merely of the initiative of the Ministry enough power in the north of Bihar where of Industry of the Government of India i'n the everything can be mechanised, where even a last nine months—20,500 boys and girls were canning factory can go. Now, with the on job, producing carpets and getting their existing 110 MW of electricity, out of bread and earning foreign exchange for this which we may be getting 80 to 90 MW per country. day, to the best of our performance, the whole Barauni industrial complex con- There is an unlimited market for these sumes most of that electricity. Now what do carpets outside our country. And we mean you do for the rest of the north of Bihar which to strengthen the handicrafts. As I said is in darkness? You cannot go there after 5 earlier Mr. Vide-Chairman, there is an O'clock in the evening. It is all dark. There is alternative. My friend, Mr. Shiva Chandra darkness for everybody there which is Jha, was to mention about the north of Bihar. I inherited after 30 years of the darkness into think it was Mr. Mishra who was to complain which you have plunged the people. No that he does not believe that small i3 beautiful. hope; no light. So, what do we do there? Please don't if you don't want to. You may We take to cottage; we take to household; we find beauty in something else. You are take to handloom; we take to handicrafts. most welcome to do it. Ultimately beauty This is what we are doing. To some persons lies in the eye of the beholder. Take the north like Mr. Mishra, tne small may not be of Bihar. Apart from the small, what else beautiful. He may like glittering things. But can you do in the north of Bihar? Mr. Vice- gutter is here in Delhi; it is there to Chairman, Sir, the power available for the some extent—to a very limited extent—in whole of the north of Bihar, where live 25 Patna; it is there in Bombay. But in the north of million poorest of the poor of our countrymen, Bihar there is no glitter. Whether anybody at present is 110 MW. Mr. Maurya likes it or not, but anyone who is concerned complained; What is this 10-year period? What with man, finds it so. As Gandhiji said, man are you fellows up to? You have a mandate is the supreme consideration. So, if man is the only for five years, of which four years are supreme consideration, then in the north of left now. It is a perspective that we have Bihar, it is not large, it is not mechanisation, it inherited from the predecessor Government. is not electricity just now. It is the small. It The north of Bihar, so far as electricity is is the cottage; it is the household; it is the concerned, is going to have another 80 MW handloom; it is the handicraft. That is the in the next 10 years, so that by the end of 1987, relevance of our policy, Mr. Vice-Chairman. left to their old dispensation, the north of Bihar It is a policy that has not come out of the would have a generating capacity of 190 fanciful ideas of anyone of us, as was sought to MW for a population of 25 million today, be made out by some of the hon. Members, which would become about 30 million in the the red flag or the blue flag amongst us. It is next 10 years. Now we have, of course, not so. There were no Raj Gurus involved in changed the perspective. We are thia. The people of India were involved immediately com- 269 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 270 in the making of this policy. Our policy is related to them. Our policy is not related to coming up in 16 different States of the anyone else. Tnere-fore, this whole new country in the next 12 months. A mother concept of the thrust to the small, to the plant producing components is coming up in cottage, to the rural, to the household. Tumkur in Karnataka. They will become operational in September next year. And, yet, SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: we are told that the Janata Government is What about the HEC's functioning? dismantling the public sector. Which unit? SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Now The BHEL is today equipped to produce points were made as to whether this would 4,500 MW generating equipment and it will not mean that the large is being neglected, the produce that much generating equipment per large is being ignored. In fact, charges were year in the next five years for the domestic made that the public sector is going to be market and for exports. dismantled and that the public sector is going to be completely finished. People do have You have had Coca Cola. We are having some whipping boys. First they create them the Modern Bakeriea marketing 77. You were and then they start their exercises with them. allowing a crorc and 25 lakhs of rupees to go One of the issues on which a lot cf out of the country every year. A crore and 25 campaigning has been going on in the last 9 lakhs is a lot of money in any currency. The months or one year is that we are going to Coca Cola's total investment in the country destroy the public sector. Which one? Let us was Rs. 6,00,000. In the last 10 years you take public sector by public sector. I allowed it to take Rs. 12 crores from this challenge any hon. Member on the other side country. The Modern Bakeries today is of the House to give me the name of one making money. On the CFTRI produced public sector undertaking which we have dis- essence the Modern Bakeries is making mantled. money. It is a public sector undertaking. The Coca Cola man was a candidate in Delhi, Mr. AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Subra-manian Vice-Chairman. Shri Vijay Kumar Malhotra, Swamy . . . my hon. colleague in the Lower House made SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES; I am him bite the dust. Otherwise, there would saying any Member may give me the name of have been a powerful Coca Cola lobby in the one public sector undertaking. Mr. Central Hall. You should thank the Janata Subramanian Swamy is not a public sector Patry and the people of course. undertaking. He is an hon. Member of the Lower House. Name one undertaking, name one unit. I know that some people are so habituated to Name one. And I can name, Mr. Vice- speak the same thing over and over again Chairman, every public sector undertaking because someone in Germany once said, which is being expanded rapidly, in which we "Tell a lie a hundred times; the people will are putting in money. Perhaps the other side believe, it is true." The art has been perfected of the House, if it had had a chance, would in this country by some people. It goes on not have put in. I will give the case of the and on. They say that the public sector has HMT. We inherited a smugglers economy as been dismantled. In every debate in this far as watches were concerned. If did 'not House and the other House and in every take us six months. In two years from today, Question Hour in this House and the other the HMT will be producing 3 million House, it is said that watches. Rs. 30 crores are being spent on the HMT in this year, and 16 watch assembling plants are

271 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. 0} Industry 272 working' [Shri George Fernandes] not mean putting on some more switches on the public sector has been dismantled Name walls and switching them on. one unit, or else stop it. SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: If it The public sector has its role al-o. Large is all correct, why is the HEC running in loss, has also its role. In the next five years, 20,000 which was making profit earlier? MW of additional electricity generating capacity is going to be created. In the next SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: There are seven years the cement production in this a number of undertakings, not only the country will be doubled. From its present 22 HEC. . . million tonnes installed capacity, it will become 45 million tonnes in the next 7 years, SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: our effort will be to make it in five years. What do you say about it? Otherwise the people will throw me out. We will not tell them that they should not. In fact SHRI. GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. they had been telling them, but that is a Vice-Chairman, as I said, I shall answer all different thing. No holding on to the chair at the questions. I want hon. Members to have a any cost, even at the cost of democracy or little . . . civil liberties. SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: Mr. Vice-Chairman, they say that we are When you are making yourself a hero of somehow dismantling the public sector or that electric power, why is the HEC suffering the whole industrial policy of the Janata losses? Government is going to take the country back by 500 years. Twenty thousand megawatts of SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES; I would electricity that is being produced now is earnestly appeal to the Member to have some almost going to be doubled in the next five patience. I shall answer all the questions, years. How can any hon. Member, Mr. Vice- including the question why the HEC is Chairman, who wants to criticise our making loss. (Interruptions) I shall answer industrial policy and who has all the right to Please have a little bit of patience. Everything criticise our economic policy, when we are has its time, everything has its place. Have going to double the 20,000 MW electricity some patience. I can see your impatience. I generating capacity in the next five years, say that we are going to take the country back by know why you are impatient. (Interruptions') 500 years? This is the position today. This After all, you cannot set things right year 4,000 MW of additional electricity overnight. You must have some patience. generating capacity will be installed in the Electricity, Mr. Vice-Chairman, cannot be country. It is not sufficient. There i3 a produced overnight. In 1967 the Government shortage of 4,000 MW. There is a shortfall of that is no more went about setting up a 105- Rs. 4,000 crores in production in the country. MW hydel project in a place called Loktak in Manipur, 26 miles from Imphal. The project SHRI GIAN CHAND TOTU (Hima-chai was expected to cost Rs. 6 crores and Pradesh): Who planned it? generate 105 MWs of electricity. On the 23rd of April, 1978 I went there. I went down 90 SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES; You metres through the shaft to the place where planned it. I hope, the hon. Member the workers are working, through the slush understands that electricity generation by the and mud; I went there four days ago. Now Janata Government does that project is estimated to cost Rs. 80 crores. 273 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. oj Industry 274 working SHRI VIREN J. SHAH; Why? SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: There is a limit, Mr. Vice-Chairman. He wanted an SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: This is answer. He ANDES: Mr. year? Vice-Chairman, you must protect even the Minister's interest here. I am not yielding. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I think the Constantly he is interrupting. hon. Member has a fixation with HEC. I will tell you why the HEC suffered a loss. The SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: If HEC'S production came down last year to Rs. you wish, I will not interrupt, but you should 40 crores for two reasons. One, during the not mislead the '. louse. Emergency a large number of workers and supervisors were thrown out of employment, SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: The and as soon as the Emergency was ended, production in the HEC seems to be the workers went on strike. That is number one. fixation of the hon. Member. I said I shall Two, Mr. Vice-Chairman, for the last several answer every question. But he says HEC. If I years there has bee'n no additional generating am discussing electricity, he says HEC. If [ capacity of electricity in Bihar, as a result of am discussing cement, he says HEC Finally I which not only the HEC was affected but said this is the answer. I s m giving this even Tata's TELCO could not produce all the answer on the floor of the House. trucks that were expected to be produced last (Interruption) HEC is the Heavy Engineering year. Corporation in ^anchi in Bihar, where production last year came down to Rs. 40 SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: This crores and for these two good reasons, wl ere is not Chowpatty. the workers, because they were dismissed and summarily thrown out, a large number of SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: This is them, for wrong reasons. , . Rajya Sabha; I am very much aware of the fact that this is Rajya Sabha. (Interruptions) SHRI VIREN J. SHAH: A reign of terror When things hurt, Mr. Vice-Chairman, was let loose. people remember Chowpatty. If they don't SHRI PILOO MODY; Demoralisation. hurt, if things go in their style, then of course this is hon. House. Otherwise it is Chowpatty. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES:. . . they went on strike. We lad to set matters right. SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: He is And power to the extent that was required in misleading the House, (Interruptions). that area for the HEC was not available. And these two factors were the most im- 275 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 276 working [Shri George Fernandes] anywhere it is available, provided, as I portant factors. There were other said—some of these conditions are factors also. After all, one has to go fulfilled. in for orders, and one makes efforts to get orders. So there are other factors, but these are the two primary Now, we are supposed to be breeding factors. So, Mr. Vice-Chairman, multi-nationals. Our Industrial Policy is when one discusses the large sector and the supposed to be breeding multi-nationals. Our role of the large sector, my submission is in suggestions that once you bring your equity to various areas of our industrial activity and 40 per cent, you will be treated as an Indian economic activity, in steel, in cement, in company for all purposes, is supposed to be aluminium in heavy engineering and all that breeding multi-'nationals. I have said ^n'9 which goes as the infrastructure, there is a constantly. And I know when you go on tremendous scope for the large sector even repeating something, it sounds rather stale in while the main thru t of our policy today is to your own mouth. We did not invent the multi- go to the rural areas, to the small, cottage, nationals. They have been there. I should not household, industries and create jobs fur those be saying this; maybe, I should not say it; but people who during the last several years have nevertheless the International Business been given no hope. Machines packed up and went, because our Government was not prepared to come to Then, certain other questions have been terms with them on their terms. International raised, particularly about multi-nataionals and Business Machines is housed in a house in foreign investments. I thought our Industrial Delhi whose name I would not like to take Policy Statement was very clear on this just now. They provided advance rent to put subject. We have said that we shall allow up a house in Delhi—I do not want to take the foreign collaboration wherever necessary; name of that house just now. . . wherever we .need modern technology, we shall get that technology from wherever it is available. We shall not fight shy of going in SHRI PILOO MODY: Name. search of that technology. Why should we fight shy? There is no reason why we should SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES; I shall fight shy to get that technology, provided it is not. And people accused us, people accused necessary, it is relevant, it is appropriate and our Government, people accused our Prime is within our reach, within our means. . . Minister! It beats me. D3M left. Coca Cola, SHRI YOGENDRA MAKWANA as I said a candidate in Delhi . . . (Gujarat): From wherever it is available? SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES; Yes, from wherever it is available, from any part of the Gold Spot? world, any part of the world, from Vietnam and China and the Soviet Union or from West SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Germany, Britain, United States or Canada, Gold Spot, I do not think, so, I do and if there is any other country that you want not think it was a candidate in Delhi to name, I em prepared to accept that also; or anywhere. But surely I know from Coca Cola was a candidate, because I saw it myself. Coca Cola was a candidate. I used to be driven from Tihar Jail to the Tis Hazari Courts everyday in handcuffs 277 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 278 working and chains. At that time I used to see pictures SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Thank of Coca Cola with folded hands, one at the you for the information. All right, there are top and another at the bottom, one lady and a two hundred multinationals, including some gent, both with folded hands, with Coca Cola, af the largest banks from America i nd some seeking votes. That is how I know it. One of the largest multi-national} from all over lady and a gent, with folded hands... the world.

I have always said that the most SHRI PILOO MODY; With a bottle in revolutionary people on the earth are the between. Vietnamese, in terms cf sheer will to fight and will to change things. The Vietnamese have a law on foreign capital. The Vietnamese invited the Federation of Indian Clambers of SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Well, Commerce and Industry and gave them a bottles were there, all over the place, for the right royal red carpet reception in truly literal people. And we were supposed t0 be bringing terms. They suggested to the Federation of multinationals. They go on repeating it ad Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry: nauseam. When I went to Germany, they "Please come to our country and set up asked: Why did you go to Germany? Well, industries". The Vietnamese allow 100 per this was not the first time I went to Germany cent foreign equity investment provided was in 1954, that is, 24 years ago. I would hundred percent products are for export. They like to know: Who has not gone to West provide 50 per cent foreign equity and 50 per Germany? What is this question? You went to cent State equity, provided 50 per cent of the West Germany, and now West Germans are products are for export and 50 per cent of the coming to this country. If there is nothing else products are for domestic consumplion and to say, they bring in West Germany, Willy the profits are shared fifty-fifty. The Brandt. Yes, Willy Brandt. He was one 0f Vietnamese allow 30 psr cent of foreign those who supported not just me, but who equity and 70 per cent of State equity if all the stood by those who fought for restoration of products are for domestic consumption and liberty and freedom in this country. As the profits are shared thirty-seventy. This is Chairman of Socialist International, he is the Vietnamese law. known to most of the people in the world. He spoke of freedom, liberty and democracy in this country. We did not have freedom in I am sure everybody hails the Vietnamese. those days to speak on these subjects. So, the And of course in this country and outside we bogey of West Germany was raised. have people who have hailed the Soviet Somebody said that I went to the Soviet Union. But when it comes to dscussion on Union and came back convinced that multi- foreign equity, when it comes to discussion nationals are good for our country also. I am on getting the best of technology, or when it not sure who made that suggestion that I went comes to the question of buying the best of to the Soviet Union and came back convinced technology or collaborating with others on that multi-nationals have a place in India. terms suggested by us, then the Janata Party There are 200 multi-nationals in the Soviet Government is accased of selling national security, letting down the country and sending Union, including Pepsi Cola. the country down the drain. That is why in our industrial policy statement, we have stated AN HON. MEMBER: Coca Cola also. our position clearly. That" is the position we hold on to. As long

279 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Min. of Industry 280 working [Shri George Fernandes] returned to power in the last weeK of March as foreign companies are operating in this and we formed the Government in the last country today and if foreign com-ponies are week of March. Immediately we presented a desirous of coming to this country tomorrow Vote on Account, a Vote on Account on a they must conform to the rules we have, Budget drafted by the predecessor including the Foreign Exchange Regulation Government. We could not have helped it. Act and Monopolies and Restrictive Trade After all, the Government had to go on. The Practices Act and any other legislation that we States, the Centre, the public sector, the may introduce from time to time. As long as private sector or any other sector, had to go on these companies conform to these laws and and the Government had to be carried on and stay within the perimeters prescribed for them, the people had to be paid and the jobs had to we shall allow them to operate. I have said be carried on. Just because a set of people who this on the floor of the House before and I were in office were thrown out of office in this would not repeat it. If any hon. Member belie- country and a new set of people had come to ves that the Janata Government is not capable power, it did not mean that things could wait. of looking after the interests of this country, I So, we went in for a Vote on Account and for would request that hon. Member to speak for two months we did whatever exercise was himself and not for the Janata Party, nor for possible within our limitations and within the country. This Government is capable of those constraints. Comrade Ramamurti was taking care of the country's interests and we terribly upset over Mr. George Fernandes are taking care of the country's interests. If having to operate within constraints. I would hon. Members on that side have different like to tell him—of course, he is not here and experience about themselves, let them speak he told me that he would not be here—having for themselves, not for the people of this provoked me, it is not fair not to be here. He country. This country is too big and the people talked of my having to operate within con- of this country are far greater than most straints. But what about him? What about people think they are. Therefore, if any petty West Bengal? When I suggested that Lily multi-nationals or their standard bearers like Biscuits be taken over by the Modern the Coca Cola or their muscle men like the Bakeries, the West Bengal Government said, IBM had influenced some people'In the "Not Bakeries, but Britannia Biscuits.". Government as they did, they shall not AN HON. MEMBER; shame. influence this Government. In fact they have failed to influence this Government and that is SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Don't say why they have packed up and left. They have 'shame'; but 'constraints'; You must packed up and left this country. Let not the understand that, after all, they are running a people again make a bogey of multinationals. Government that they have inherited. They Some people make a bogey of multinationals have inherited a Government from Mr. or public sector and then start attacking us. It Siddhartha Shankar Ray. They cannot change woul^ not work for all time. Then, Mr. Vice- things overnight and I am sure they want to Chairman, I will come to the question of our change, but they cannot change things own performance during the last one year. My overnight. There are sick industries in Bengal, friend, Shri Maurya, devoted most of his galore. Mr. Jyoti Bosu, with the best of speech to telling us how badly we performed intentions, cannot change things overnight. last year. We could not have performed better, They need power in Bengal. There has been Mr. Vice-Chairman. As I said earlier, we no planning for power in West Bengal. The were Calcutta Electric Supply Corporation is a 28l Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 282 working nundred per cent bteriing Company with its Resolution came into existence and we were Headquarters in London in the United able to present it on the 23rd December, Kingdom and this is thirty years after our hardly three or four months before. independence. Then, Mr. Vice-Chairman, the Plan that SHRI PILOO MODY: Shame. was there which was designed to create unemployment in the country, a Plan which SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. went on creating unemployment in this Jyoti Bosu had no alternative but to suggest to country.. . the Government of India, "Please give us 220 (Interruptions) SHRI, N. G. MW of power generating capacity". The Calcutta Electric Supply RANGA: Is it? Corporation is there. Here I share the views of my honourable friends, the honourable SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I think Members on the other side, when they Rangaji would agree with me on this at least. say, "These are sharks. Be careful about them. You agree on the right things that we say. So, We have had experience. Some of us escaped. Sir, on this Plan, we had to say, "Enough is But many of us have gone through their enough.", and instead of allowing'the Fifth stomachs". When they say all these things and Five Year Plan to run its full course of they sound these warnings, I know that creating unemployment in this country, we the speak from experience, because the decided to put a stop to it on the 31st March. Calcutta Electric Supply Corporation, an So, we operated within the constraints of the English Company, a British Company, a Fifth Five Year Plan, a Plan that was designed hundred-per-cent Sterling Company, went to to create unemployment in the country. I am Mr. Jyofi Bosu and said: "We shall double not trying to explain away the problem; I am the capacity and we shall give you 220 MW serious, Mr. Vice-Chairman. To the extent it of power. We shall give you our expertise, was possible for us, we did it. I am prepared our skills, and our engineers are available. to sit with my hon. friends and discuss the We shall expand it provided you find the number of additional jobs that have been money". And, Sir. I know that such an created during the last 12 months. In one experience must have been an 0dd kin,} of small sector of carpet weaving, we created experience for Comrade Jyoti Bosu to tbink of 20,400 jobs through training centres. We industry, to think of having power, and then to moved away from machine-made carpets to raise the money and make it available to the hand-made carpets. We moved away from Sterling Company and to let them give him what has been done with machine to what can 220 MW of electricity for the Calcutta be done with the hands. And, therefore, these electricity system; Constraints: But one jobs were created. We had to work within the had to operate and we had to operate constraints of the Fifth Five Year Plan. Here within constraints and in two months we did was a Plan that was devised by yau and which some exercises. I said earlier how, as a part was inherited by us and which, whether we of these exercises, we were able to make liked it or not, we had to implement. available forty-crores of rupees to sink SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: wells for drinking water in the villages. We What about the First, Second, Third and did it. To the extent it was possible, we Fourth Plans? brought about a change. Then we have said about the job of doing serious exercises to SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. bring about" rlaslc and radical changes in Maurya, if I were only to remind the entire planning, in the entire structure. That is how the Industrial Policy

283 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] 0/ Min. oj Industry 284 working [Shri George Fernandes] Court lays down is the law of the land. you of the speeches you made in 1967, if According to the latest judgment of the only I had known where you would be at this Supreme Court, eve*i Government is time, I would have taken some of the industry. And I am glad that I stand speeches in the Sunder-bhai Hall, not on the vindicated. Chowpathy, and I would have... SHRI' BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: Your Where is the bonus? Prime Minister was a party to it— the First, Second, Third and... SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: We will produce that also. We will produce SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Since you everything. We won't let you have a chance are now holding the baby, why put it on my on that. Prime Minister. My Prime Minister has openly said that it was wrong. My Prime Mr. Vice-Chairman, we had thus to Minister says that it was wrong. My Prime function within certain constraints, within the Minister has the greatness, has the humility, constraints of a certain Budget. But we have to accept that it was wrong. But you are not set things right. The Sixth Five Year Plan is showing that humility. He is displaying that already into motion, with Rs. 116 crores more humility. investment during the next five years than all the investment during the last 30 years. This In the course of the debate, a number of is what has gone into the Sixth Five Year hon. Members made the point that Nehru was Plan. You are perfectly justified in asking the father of the public sector... why we were not able to do this and that. I (Interruptions) would say that we did it to the extent it was possible for us. For instance, in March, 1978, the cement industry in this country gave a production of 104.4 per cent of its installed capacity. SHRI PILOO MODY: That makes him SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: Why the 'mother'... (Interruptions). don't you talk of the entire period? It is 87.67 per cent only. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. Vice- Chairman, I want to ask: What is public sector? Are the Railways public sector or SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: The private sector? The Railways were private production for the year 1977-78 was 89 per sector in the year 1935, 1936 0r 1937. Who cent. The production for the previous year, i.e. nationalised the Railways and made it a 1976-77, wac 87 per cent and the production public sector? Mr. Vice-Chairman, I do not for the year before that was 86 per cent. want to go into the question of fatherhood or Compared to the previous years, we had the motherhood, but... highest production in March of this year. Thanks to effective monitoring. Thanks to the SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: The total commitment of the men who work there Railways are also industry. an pro- friend Dr. Zakaria said that the needs of this duce marine freight containers, has to export country are more than met by the existing 75 per cent ('of its production. capacity for the next 10 years, I am sure Dr. Zakaria has not the cue of this country in the DR. RAFIQ ZAKARIA: On a point of next 10 years because whosoever asked him, interruption .... You cannot export because the does not himself know what are the needs of capacity lof the Bombay Port, unless the this dountry in the next 10 years. capacity is increased by Nheva-Sheva Port, is DR. RAFIQ ZAKARIA: Licence to a Birla limited, which may take another 10 years.. I concern has been given for export. It has not challenge the Minister. It is impossible; you been for internal capacity and I did not raise may put any condition of 75 per cent but if it that point. I also told you what is the core is manufactured you will not be in a position capacity and the various reasons for which, in to export because the capacity of the Bombay fact if you will go through the report of your Port is—as it is—so extremely limited that Screening Committee, you will find that they your 2 public sector units and 2 private sector have themselves opined that it is not possible units will not be—as far as their capacity is even if the capacity is created, for that export concerned— able to export. And another to be made. thing which is very interesting and which the Minister is not replying is that on the 13th of SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I shall go December, the Government tells this Birla through this entire case and if it is necessary concern that their application rejected and it for me to come before this House with any cannot be granted and that the Screening explanation, with any clarification or any Committee has qome to the con-elusion that correction, I shall come before this House. there is no further need for increased capacity, But since these point has been made, let me and on the 31st of December, within 17 days, clear the situation. Our own requirement of the entire attitude of the Government changes marine freight containers is negligible. We to this whole question. have just now only two units in production. The total installed capacity is only 8600 numbers per annum, and not 30,000. Both SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I have these units have been set up with an export already said that I shall examine this entire commitment of 75 per cent because there is case but I am only trying t0 remove some of no domestic market. Since theft Letters of In- the—shall I say— misconceptions that in so tent have been issued to 4 more units; Balmer far as licensing in the marine freight Laurie, Bridge and Roof, Indian Tools containers industry is concerned, every Manufacturers and Sea Lord Containers, to licence carries 75 per cent export obligation. the first three, 5,000 numbers each per annum, That is number one. Secondly, when these and to the last one for 6,000 numbers per licences were given, since the hon. Member annum. All of them have received Letters of was kind enough to brief me before he made Intent and have not as yet been issued a this observation in the House and I was ahle licence. All these 4 units have been told—and to get some of the information immediately the Letters of Intent are conditional— that 75 available; I will go through the file and if per cent of their production will be for export anything wrong has been done, or there has a.nd rjPt for domes- been any special favour shown to anybody, if 293 Discussion on the [ 27 APR. 1978 ] of Min. of Industry 294 working the rules have been broken Or violated, Well, of my best efforts, it has ntot been possible that will not be allowed. We shall see that things for us to identify every house by the various are set right. in that kind of a situation. Now, ramifications that it has had. I go by the this point about this Birla company has been definition that I have inherited fr°m your raised. We are formulating new policies and we Government. Now, the definition that I have are now trying to see how to dismantle these inherited from your Government says that family-owned houses and how to dismantle India Tools is not a part of the Birla family. these large houses. But during the last thirty (Interruptions). I have the definition given by years, these large houses have been very your Government that India Tools does npt assiduously and very carefully planted, nurtured belong to the Birla family. You have said it. I and built UP- N]ow, they are there, staring at us am not saying it. like mjonsters, as my friends, Comrade Shiva Chandra Jha, was saying. Therefore, they are DR. RAFIQ ZAKARIA: If you will only there. They have built them up and they are now spend five minutes of your time on this. threatening us with them. They are asking us 'Why don't you dismantle these large houses? ' SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES; 1 shall in the hope that these tycoons and these big spend five days on this. But as of now, as I business houses will then provide them with the stand before you, Mr. Vice-Chairman, as I necessary muscle power to deal with us. We are stand before this House, I shall carry witn me aware of this. We will take them on. We are the definition given by the predecessor aware |of this. We will take everyday on this. Government given by my critics just now. (Interruptions). We are absolutely aware of this. We are aware of this whole game. They are now SHRI YOGENDRA MAKWANA: It can asking us 'why don't you dismantle them?' That be changed. is where the strength is. That is where the clout is. That was the clout which came out in the SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: This streets of Delhi ipn the 26th June, 1975. We definition says that India Tools is not a Birla shall not forget it. Mr. Vice-Chairman, we shall company. Mr. Vice-Chairman, this raises a not forget that on the 26th June, 1975, . the man very fundamental point. The fundamental who led the first demonstration in support of the point is that the Government and the people dictatorship in this country was a man called of this country have been misled. It raises the Mr. K. K. Birla and no one else. We shall not point that you had deals with the Birlas and forget this. We are njot g'oing to forget this. We you did not show India Tools as a part of the are aware of the size of the problem. The Birla empire. You made a deal with them and Government is aware of the size of the problem. kept it out of the Birla empire. Now, I have to We have fought this. That is blow we are here. carry that baby. If this is true, if what Dr. Rafiq Zakaria has said is true, then, your DR. RAFIQ ZAKARIA: Why do ypu give Government has committed a fraud on us, special licences to them? your Government has committed a fraud on the people of this country. Your Government has not o'nly built up these big business SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: We have houses, but your Government has also, very not given. This is the point I am coming to. In surreptitiously, and in a very cunning way, spite of my best intentions, in spite of the best damaged the interests of the people of this intentions of my Government and in spite country by not naming some of these enterprises as part of the large houses. 295 Message from [ RAJYA SABHA ] Lok Sabha 296

DR. RAFIQ ZAKARIA; In the prospectus appreciate if I do not deal with the questions that has been issued, Mr. Ashok Birla has relating particularly to TAFCO and Bharat been shown as . . . Leather and the personnel who are involved in it. I will talk to him later about it. I think I SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I am not have discussed the general issues and he will yielding. Secondly, in the year 1975, on the appreciate if I do not deal with these 16th December, 1975, the Department of questions now. Company Affairs, which, I think, was then headed by my dear friend, not of those days, With these words I thank you very much, but of a few days before that, Mr. H. R. Mr. Vice-Chairman. Gokhale, if I am not mistaken, has given a letter to this company, which letter is to the records of my files now, in the context of the licence that has been given, that this is not a MESSAGE FROM THE LOK SABHA MRTP house, that this is not related to any family. On the 16th December, 1975, a letter The Appropriation (No. 3) Bill 1978 went from Mr. H. R. Gokhale, the architect of SECRETARY-GENERAL: Sir, I have to the new Constitution. report to the House the following message received from the Lok Sa'bha, signed by the SHRI BUDDHA PRIYA MAURYA: He Secretary of the Lok Sabha:— is no more. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: He was a "In accordance with the provisions of friend of mine. He was an erstwhile colleague rule 96 of the Rules of Procedure and of mine. He was a very close and very dear Conduct of Business in Lok Sabha, I am friend of mine. That is not the issue, but I am directed to enclose herewith the basing myself on those records. And as late as Appropriation (No. 3) Bill, 1978, as passed only a few days ago when certain by Lok Sabha at its sitting held on the 27th representations came ty> our Ministry from April, 1978. sorre of the rivals of competitors of this company that this is an MRTP house, the 2. The Speaker has certified that this Bill Department of Company Affairs has told us is a Money Bill within the meaning of that the India Tools are not registered under article 110 of the Constitution of India." the MRTP Act, nor has any show cause notice been issued to them. This means, as far as my Sir, I lay a copy of the Bill on the Table. records show, it is not a part bf the Birla THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI SYED House. Now I will certainly go into it, I will NIZAM-UD-DIN); The House stands find out whip is responsible for keeping it adjourned till 1.00 A.M. tomorrow. outside the Birla house, what the manipulations are and we shall set things The House then adjourned at right. twenty-two minutes past seven of Mr. vice-Chairman, i have taken a lot of the clock till eleven of the clock on time of the House. I know there are one or Friday, the 28th April, 1978. two questions which Mr. Maurya has raised. I hope he will