London Assembly Planning Committee – 30 January 2018
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Appendix 1 London Assembly Planning Committee – 30 January 2018 Transcript of Agenda Item 4 – Mayoral Consultation – Draft London Plan Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): As I said earlier, this Committee is responding on behalf of the whole Assembly to the Mayor’s consultation draft. This is the second of two meetings that we are having, although we have a whole body of evidence from many, many previous Planning Committee meetings, and of course the other Committees are going to give us evidence because they are also looking at the draft London Plan. Our first panel today is on London’s heritage, its historic fabric, its views, its built environment and its conservation areas. Also, we might touch on its natural heritage and the river. The second panel is on open space, which of course also overlaps with the natural heritage. Before we go into our questioning, panel, it would be a good idea for each of you to introduce yourselves so that those people who are watching can know who you are. Could you give us just one line about what you do and who you represent, starting at that end? David English (Historic Places Principal, Historic England): My name is David English. I am Historic Places Principal at Historic England. I lead a team of planners involved with the London Plan for about the last 18 months. We have also have been involved with the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) mission to Westminster last February and I work with the boroughs, looking at their planning policy. Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): Very succinct. Thank you. Chloe Clay (Urban Design and Development Lead, Royal Borough of Kingston): I am Chloe Clay. I am Team Lead for Urban Design and Development at Kingston Council. I lead up a team of six different specialists, advising on planning applications and also delivering in-house supplementary planning guidance (SPG). Charles Wagner (Co-Chair, Spatial Planning Advisory Group, Heritage Alliance): I am Charles Wagner. I am a heritage and planning consultant. I am Co-Chair of the Spatial Planning Advisory Group of the Heritage Alliance. The Heritage Alliance is England’s largest coalition of independent heritage interests. It was set up to promote the central role of the non-governmental movement in the heritage sector. We unite 113 organisations, which together have over seven million members, volunteers, trustees and staff. Indeed, the vast majority of England’s historic environment is owned, managed and cared for by Heritage Alliance members. Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): Thank you. Michael Coupe (Planning and Transport Committee, London Forum): My name is Michael Coupe. I used to be Head of Planning and Regeneration at the former English Heritage. I am now so distant from that job that I am practically listable myself. I am a freelance consultant. I work mainly pro bono, I like to think on the side of the good guys. Otherwise, I sell antiquarian books. Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): We are also interested in your role on the London Forum. Michael Coupe (Planning and Transport Committee, London Forum): Yes, sorry. I am part of the -- Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): It is very important because we want to have a spread of expertise, including people who are meeting and working with people who are extraordinary citizens. Michael Coupe (Planning and Transport Committee, London Forum): Yes. I am on the Planning and Transport Committee of the London Forum, which represents all the civic societies around London. Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): Thank you. Nairita Chakraborty (Principal Conservation Officer, London Borough of Haringey): Good morning. I am Nairita Chakraborty. I am the Principal Conservation Officer at Haringey Council. I have been working in the field of conservation and urban design for over 11 years. I have worked in three different local authorities, two of which have been within London. Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): Thank you all for that. All right. Now we are going to have two panels and we want to close this session at about 11.30am, just so that you are aware of the time. We have to be. We have a lot of questions, but we want everyone to be very succinct. Today, we are not having general statements about things. What we are trying to do is to look at the Plan and say what is good about it, but particularly the meeting is mainly about whether there are areas that we want to improve. Our experience has been that if something is very important, it ought to be in the policy box. If it is in the text, however good it is, if it is not reflecting a policy, it does not have anything like the material consideration or weight of a policy in a box, just so everyone is aware of that. We are going to start with the World Heritage Sites and Tony Devenish, who is a Councillor for Westminster [City Council] and so who better? Tony Devenish AM: Thank you, Chair. If we start with Mr English and work our way down, please, in relation to London’s World Heritage Sites, how do you view UNESCO’s concerns that there are challenges from incremental developments that will put them at risk, potentially? David English (Historic Places Principal, Historic England): Fundamentally, we agree that incremental development is a challenge. The policies in the new London Plan make reference to cumulative impacts and the need to assess them, which is really welcome. That is a positive step, responding directly to the recommendations of the monitoring mission. However, there are one or two points, if you read across the Plan, which are particularly relevant to World Heritage Sites. As I am sure you will know, at Westminster, a lot of the problems which drew the mission there in the first place related not to Westminster itself but to Opportunity Areas in Vauxhall Nine Elms and at Waterloo. It is the Opportunity Area Policy that we have particularly picked up on as being a bit of a concern for the treatment of World Heritage Sites and where we think there needs to be perhaps some changes to the policy. This is particularly relevant with the Opportunity Area near the Great West Corridor in Hounslow, which is very close to Kew. There is likely to be a public inquiry later this year for a tall building, which is in that area and could affect the World Heritage Site at Kew. Within the Opportunity Area -- Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): Is this the Curve? David English (Historic Places Principal, Historic England): It is the Curve, yes. Within the Opportunity Area Policy, there is a line which says about Opportunity Areas being allowed to define their own character and density, which seems quite a strong push towards very tall buildings that pay no regard to their context. That is something from our perspective that we would want to see adapted or changed so that there is some recognition of context so that you do not get situations where you have very tall buildings in the setting of World Heritage Sites which spoil their outstanding universal value. Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): You think we need to look at that part of the London Plan? David English (Historic Places Principal, Historic England): Yes. Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): All right. Tony Devenish AM: Do you have any wording for that? Not now, but the point the Chair did not make but we are going to make: if you can provide short written evidence afterwards, that will be really helpful. Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): Well done, Tony. Yes, I should have said that. David English (Historic Places Principal, Historic England): I would be very happy to do that. Tony Devenish AM: Thank you. Ms Clay, do you want to comment? Chloe Clay (Urban Design and Development Lead, Royal Borough of Kingston): Kingston does not have any World Heritage Sites within it and so we -- Nicky Gavron AM (Chair): I do not think everyone needs to comment. Tony Devenish AM: No, OK. I will move on to my second question, which is fairly similar to number one. What is your view on UNESCO’s fears that, despite the London Plan and borough plan policies, there is, I quote, “a disconnect between the good intentions of the policies and the buildings that are being constructed”, end quote, which negatively impact on London’s heritage? It is similar to the first question but, Mr English, do you have anything else to add? David English (Historic Places Principal, Historic England): This is really about implementation and it definitely applies across the built environment for London’s heritage and so it is one which is relevant to everyone. In terms of improving implementation, that was an issue with the previous or the existing Plan. We commissioned various pieces of research, one of which said that some of the policies in the current Plan are not that bad, but the implementation has not been very good. In terms of improving that implementation, having a clearer steer from the Mayor about the types of development he wants to see would be helpful. There are some really great words in the Plan about heritage, but there are places where he could be clearer. Mayoral decisions, again, send a very clear signal to the industry about what will be acceptable and what will not be acceptable. We will get on to later the key performance indicator (KPI), but that is a very positive thing, potentially, to help with implementation and making sure that that is monitored. From our perspective, having something like an SPG or a Heritage Strategy would be really helpful with implementation because, again, it will let boroughs know, it will let neighbourhood forums know, it will let civic groups know and it will let developers know what the Mayor’s position is in a bit more detail and how he thinks people should be approaching the historic environment, not just in the kind of overview that you can get in a plan like this, but in the everyday.