Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

(Hansard)

Published under the authorityof TheHonourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker

Vol. XLVI No. 14-1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April10, 1996

ISSN 0542-5492 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature

Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation

Name Constituency eaay ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETI, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. 599

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, April10,1996

The House met at 1:30 p.m. Schechter, Augustine Ziffle and others requesting the Premier and theMinister of Health to consider reversing PRAYERS their plan to privatizehome care services.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Ms. Diane McGitJord (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Bill Bilawka, Karen PRESENTING PETITIONS Advent, Grace Kusie and othersrequesting the Premier and theMinister of Health to consider reversing their Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling plan to privatize home care services. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Dan Mr. (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I Klippenstein, Gerhard Friesen, Gord Blatz and others beg to present the petition of StaceyPinnock, Maureen requesting that theMinister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) Pinnock, Beryl Juzda and othersrequesting the Premier considerreversing his decision and retaining a systemof and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their orderly marketing of hogs inManitoba underManitoba planto privatizehome careservices. Pork. Ms. (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I beg Home Care Services to presentthe petition of Jared Winters, Troy Scott, Mona Chappellaz and others requesting the Premier and the Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, I beg to Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to present the petition of Florence Lamoureux, Dianne privatize home care services. J ohannson, Esther Revet and others requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and theMinister of Health (Mr. Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize Speaker, I beg present the petition of Donna Green, home care services. to LouiseMcQuade, Vicki Cook and others requesting the Premier andthe Minister of Health to consider reversing Mr. (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I theirplan to privatizehome careservices. beg to present the petition of KimMorrison, Jaime Carrasco, Collette Aubin and others requesting the Mr. (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, Premier and theMinister of Health to consider reversing I beg to present the petition of Carolyn Buffi.e, Jennifer theirplan to privatize home care services. Cote, andYvonne Chartrandrequesting thePremier and the Minister of Healthto consider reversingtheir plan to Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I privatizehome care services. beg to present the petition of Irv Riskin, Debby Paradoski, Dianne Riskin and others requesting the Premier and theMinister of Health to consider reversing Mr. (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I their plan to privatize home care services. beg to present the petition of Bruce Tynes, Carri McCormick, Janice Tynes and others requesting the

Mr• .funMa loway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I beg Premierand theMinister of Health to consider reversing to present the petitionofD. Gorrell, D. Courage, S. Kelly theirplan to privatize home care services. and others requesting the Premier and theMinister of Healthto consider reversing their plan to privatize home Mr. (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I beg care services. to present the petition of Judy Drabik, Raymond Sharp, Iva Sharp and others requesting the Premier and the Mr. GeorgeHickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to I beg to present the petition of Sylvia Fediuk, Sandy privatizehome care services. 600 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April lO, 1996

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, I beg Mr.(Thompson): Madam Speaker, I beg topresent the petition of Kim Marcyniuk, TrudyWalski, to present the petition of Vicki Holmes, Rosalie Mazur, Janice Goodman and others requesting the Premier and Pat McCorrnack-Speatznr and others requesting the the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to Premierand the Minister of Health to consider reversing privatize horne care services. their plan to privatize horne care services.

* (1335) Mr. (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I beg Retention of Hogs Single-Desk SeUing to present the petition of Louise Gaba, Jaroslaw Gaba, Pauline Mirus and others requesting the Premier and the Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, I beg Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to to present the petition of Paul Kolrnatiski, Leo Wnuk, privatize horne care services. Darren Kryschuk and others requesting that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) consider reversing his decision READING AND RECEIVINGPETITIONS and retain a system for the orderly marketing of hogs under Manitoba Pork. Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling

Mr. (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the Speaker, I beg topresent the petition of Rick Vaags, Bill honourable memberfor Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) and Vaags, Michel Gauthier and others requesting that the it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is Minister of Agriculture consider reversing his decision it the will of the House to have the petitionread? and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. An Honourable Member: Yes.

Mr. (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I beg Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. to present the petition of Karl Kynach, Ron Froese, HarveyHmms and others requesting that the Minister of Agriculture consider reversing his decision and retain a * (1340) system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. Mr. Clerk (WiUiam Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly Home Care Services sheweth that:

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Carl Porteous, Mary WHEREASthe provincial government announced its Thiessen, Doug Blaschuk and others requesting the intention to move to an open marketing system for hogs Premierand the Minister of Health to consider reversing in Manitobawithout consulting producers as it promised their plan to privatize horne care services. during the last election; and

Ms. (WeUington): Madam Speaker, I WHEREAS a majority of hog producers support beg to present the petition of Eleanor Bro�nlee, Judy single-desk selling under Manitoba Pork, the marketing Chirsky, Brenda Dozenko and others requesting the board; and Premierand the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize horne care services. WHEREAS thehog industry in Manitoba has doubled under an orderly marketing system; and Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of E. Rae Hatherly, WHEREAS processors who will contribute to R Hamilton, J. Fedomand others requesting the Premier Manitoba'svalue-added industry have publicly expressed and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their their preference for orderly marketing because it is easier plan to privatize horne care services. to deal with one agent rather than 2,300 producers. Apri110, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 601

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the THAT many LPNs have been eliminated from most Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the acute care facilities in Manitoba, including St. Minister of Agriculture consider reversing his decision Boniface, Seven Oaks, and most recently HSC; and, and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. THATthe LPNs of this province are valuable members of the health care system, providing professional, Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the competent, skilled and cost-effective services; and honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans). It complies with therules andpractices of the House. Is it THAT staffing cuts will only result in declining quality the will of theHouse to have the petition read? of health care and potentially tragic outcomes; and

Some Honourable Members: Dispense. THAT it will not be long before the negative results of this shortcut effort arerealized, includinghigher costs Madam Speaker: Dispense. and poorer services.

WHEREAS the provincial government announced its WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the intention to move to an open marketing system for hogs Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of in Manitoba without consulting producers as it Health to recognize the value ofLPNs and to consider promised during the last election; and reversing the decision to cut LPNs in Manitoba.

WHEREASa majorityof hog producers support single- * (1345) desk selling under Manitoba Pork, the marketing board; and Home Care Services

WHEREAS the hog industry in Manitoba has doubled Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the under an orderly marketingsystem; and honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it WHEREAS processors who will contribute to the will of theHouse to have the petition read? Manitoba's value-added industry have publicly expressed their preference for orderly marketing Some Honourable Members: Dispense. because it is easier to deal with one agent rather than 2,300 producers. Madam Speaker: Dispense. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut Minister of Agriculture consider reversing his decision health services; and, and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home Licensed Practical Nurses care serviceswas presented to TreasuryBoard; and,

THATthis plan calls for the complete divestiture of all Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the service delivery to non-government organizations honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). It mainly private, for-profit companies as well as the complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it implementation of a userpay system of home care; and, the will of the House to have the petition read?

Some Honourable Members: Dispense. THAT previous cuts to the Home Care Program have resulted in servicesbeing cut and people 's health being Madam Speaker: Dispense. compromised; and, 602 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April lO, 1996

THAT thousands of caringfront line providers will lose complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it their jobs as a result of this change; and, thewill of the House to have the petition read?

THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital Some Honourable Members: Dispense. health services. Madam Speaker: Dispense. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERSHUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing health services; and, their plan to privatize home care services.

Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). It care services was presented to TreasuryBoard; and, complies with the rules and practices of theHouse. Is it the will of theHouse to have the petition read? THATthis plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to non-government organizations Some Honourable Members: Dispense. mainly private, for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user paysystem of home care; and, Madam Speaker: Dispense. THAT previous cuts to the Home Care Program have THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 resulted in services being cut and people 's health being provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut compromised; and, health services; and,

THATthousands of caringfront line providerswill lose THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home their jobs as a result of this change; and, care serviceswas presented to TreasuryBoard; and,

THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all health services. service delivery to non-government organizations mainly private, for-profit companies as well as the WHEREFORE YOURPETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY implementation of a user paysystem of home care; and, that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the THAT previous cuts to the Home Care Program have Minister of Health (Mr.McCrae) to consider reversing resulted in servicesbeing cut and people 's health being their plan to privatize home care services. compromised; and,

THATthousands of caringfront line providerswill lose * (1350) their jobs as a result of this change; and, Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). It health services. complieswith the rules andpractices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be Some Honourable Members: Dispense. pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Ministerof Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing Madam Speaker: Dispense. their plan to privatize home care services. THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Gregory Dewar). It health services; and, April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 603

IHATon December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you care services was presented to Treasury Board; and, this afternoon.

IHATthis plan calls for the complete divestiture of all * (1355) service delivery to non-government organizations mainly private, for-profit companies as well as the ORAL QUESTION PERIOD implementation of a user paysystem of home care; and, Hog Industry MarketingSystem THAT previous cuts to the Home Care Program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam compromised; and, Speaker, thehog industry employs a number of people in this province including over 2,000 producers that are IHAT thousands of caringfront line providers will lose involved in this industry. To borrow a term from the their jobs as a result of this change; and, Manitoba seniors letter last week, many of those producers fe el quite betrayed by the action of the IHAT profit has no place in the provision of vital government to proceed, in their opinion, with the health services. unilateral action on the marketing system that we had in Manitoba Manypeople fee l they were given the word of WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY the government during the last election campaign, and that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be they have been betrayed in that word that they received. pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to considerreversing I would liketo ask the Premier specifically, did he ever their plan to privatize home care services. give his word to pork producers here in the province of Manitobathat hewould not change the marketing system fo r pork unless the majority of pork producers had voted TABLING OF REPORTS fo r the change? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Hon. (Premier): Madam Speaker, we Training): I ampleased to table the Annual Report of have never talked about votes of the producers because the PublicSchools Finance Boardfo r the year ended June thefilet of1he matter is that Manitoba Pork was set up by 30, 1995. As well, I am pleased to table the Annual the Legislature as a sole marketing entity and, indeed, Report ofthe Collective Agreement Board fo r the school that power is given to a group andcan indeed be altered year 1994-95. or changedby 1he government. Indeed, we are looking at this as anopportwrity fo r expansion of hog production, a Introduction of Guests maj or expansion that hasthe opportunity to create some 8,000 jobs. We double hog-[interjection] Madam Speaker: Priorto Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Madam Speaker: Order, please. public gallery where we have with us this afternoon twenty-three Grades 9 and 10 students from Fairholme Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think the member fo r Colony School and Baker Colony School under the Wellington (Ms. Barrett) wants to answer the question. direction of Mrs. Maendel. This school is located in the constituency of member fo r Gladstone Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, Iasked the Premierwhether (Mr. Rocan). he gave his word, and I want to table a letter that is signed by Mr. Darvin Firman, a pork producer who met We also have sixteen Grade 9 students from Faith with the Premier approximately fo ur or five days before Academy under the direction of Mrs. Jodi Daly. This the last election campaign and was told by the Premier school is located in the constituency of the honourable himselfthat there would be no changes to Manitoba Pork member fo r Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). unless the majority of producers ask fo r a change. 604 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA April 10, 1996

I would like thePremier considerto his words, and ask maj ority of the producers desired so? Why did he break the Premiertoday: Will he, in the spirit of honesty, keep his word after the election campaign? his word and not proceed with the changes in the marketing system for pork producers here in Manitoba Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the member knows full unless a majority of pork producers ask fo r those well that we had a report that was produced by an changes? independent commission that outlined the alternatives thatwere available to government. Government has said Mr. Filmon: We have always said that governments thatgo vernment makes the final decision, that this is not have to act in the best interests of the people of the a matter that will be set to referendum, and that is not a province. The fact of the matter is we have an commitment thatI would ever have made. opportunityto add tremendous value to the production in our agricultmal community in this province in a waythat * (1400) will create an additional 8,000 jobs for this province. Hog Industry Thatnot is an opportunitythat can be denied by a group Marketing System that wants to have a monopoly situation on the production and marketing of hogs in this province. Ms. (Swan River): Madam Speaker, inlight of the factthat the Premier and many of This will require investments of major proportions, the Conservative candidates in the last election gave their investments in processing that will create 500 to a word that they would not change Manitoba Pork unless thousand jobs fo r each new unit of processing, $40- the majority of producers askedfo r this change, in light million, $50-million investments. Those cannot be of the fact that feed processors and many of the large controlled by one private interest group. We need to packers have said that the system is working very well, have investments in the million-dollar range to create will the Premieragree today that what they have done is major production fucili.tiesin this province, and they need wrong, and will he tell producers thathe will give them to be bankable. They need to be able to take pork the opportunity to have a say, give them the opportunity production agreements for sale to the bankers to be to have a referendum on this issue before they makethe bankable so thatthey can have thatkind of investment. change from single-desk sellingto dual marketing of hogs in this province? What we are talking about are jobs. We are talking Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I about thousands of jobs, and this government will repeat, the issue here is jobs and economic opportunity continue to act in the best interests of all Manitobans. for all Manitobans. The issue here is an opportunityfo r 8,000 additional jobs in pork processing, in Mr. Doer: MadamSpeaker, the only private interests we transportation, in production, in support services to the seeaff ectingthis government is the McMaster fa mily on farm economy. Those are opportunities that all their proposal on We Care and home care, not the Manitobans should be given. majority of pork producers here in the province of Manitoba. Ms. Wowcbuk: I beg to differ with the minister. This is a matter of honesty. I have askedthe Premier a couple of specific questions about something as fundamental as his word. I have I would like to ask the Premier, since they insist on asked him on two occasions to talk about the moving into this system on open marketing against the commitment he gave in the election campaign to pork willof theproducers, willhe agree to provide anongoing producers, not the rhetoric he is giving us now in the evaluation theof open marketing system to ensure that it Chamber a year later. is in fact accomplishing what they want and not hurting the producers of this province? I would like to ask the Premier, why did he give his word to producers and farmers in Manitoba that they Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, Manitoba Pork will would not change the marketing system unless the continue to be in operation fo r the benefit of those who April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 605

chooseto utilizesystem that . In fact, Manitoba Pork will deterioratefurther and further. Manitobans expect much be strengthenedby the opportunityto receive a checkoff more fromus thanthat. They expect us to have an eye to on allhogs that are produced in this province which will the future so that we can pass something on to future givethem even greaterrevenues to be able to support and generations, something that honourable members promote Manitoba pork worldwide for the opportunities opposite have attempted to take away from future that exist. generations.

Mr. Cbomiak: Canthe minister explain how the public Ms.Wowch uk: Since this is a dramatic change against of Manitoba can have any confidence in a privatized the will of the producers, will the minister, the Premier, system or any contingency system during a potential give hisword that there will be an evaluation system that strike when this government, this Department of Health will involve the producers and this time that they will and this minister have seriously botched every major listento the producers ifthe system is not working in the health initiative, including the doctors' strike, the best interests of pork producers in Manitoba? hospital fiasco, the Pharmacare fiasco where they cannot get anyof that right, Madam Speaker? How can we have Mr.Filmon: MadamSpeaker, what we are interested in any confidence in the welfare provided by this minister? is notproviding monopolies that give privilege to certain people in this province. The fact of the matter is that Mr. McCrae: In the face of the serious efforts on the whatare we attempting to do is benefit the entire society partof honourable members opposite andtheir friends to and theentire economy of Manitoba, and that means that convince Manitobans that there are all of these issues in we haveto have a system that works in the best interests front of us and all of these problems, in the face of that, of allManitobans and their economy, andthat is exactly Madam Speaker, what I offer and what my colleagues what we will be providing. offeris toput the patient, put theclient ahead of all other considerations. Home Care Program Privatization Mr. Cbomiak: I thankthe minister for that response, so perhapsthe minister can now explain to members on this Mr. Dave Cbomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my side of the House why his own Centre for Health Policy question is for the Minister of Health. Evaluationin its most recent bulletin was saying that we should not be going to a private system because it costs Madam Speaker, there is no need for a contingency 33 cents on the dollar in the U.S. system to go to a plan duringthe strike, no need to force people from their private system in administration costs and this homes into institutions, no need to have a contingency government will givingbe 33 cents on the dollar to profit plan in place, no needfor coalitions like the coalition that companies and taking away from health care. was formed today to fight privatization of home care if the government would only listen to what the public has Will he at least listen to his own health policy to say about the privatization, ifthe government would evaluation division ifhe will not listen to the public, the only listen to the recommendations of the Price opposition or anyone in thisprovince, Madam Speaker? Waterhouse report that said we had the best home care plan in all ofNorth America. Mr. McCrae: MadamSpeaker, the honourable member would like to have people believe that we are moving My question to the Minister of Health is, will the towards the American system of health care where minister stop this in its tracks, feel no need to have a millions and millions of people get no care whatsoever. contingency plan, do the right thing, stop the I mean, the honourable member should wake up and privatization plan right now, go back to the table, talk to smell the coffee. This is not an American system. We the public, prevent the strike, Madam Speaker? have a one-payer system in our country which distinguishes our system from the American system and Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam fromany othersystems in the world and makes ours one Speaker, if I listen to the advice of the honourable of the best in theworld. What we want to do is keep it member, I would allow our health care system to thatway , and I remindthe honourable memberthat health 606 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April10, 1996

carewas one of the key measures that the UnitedNations Marketing System-Implementation usedwhen it judged four years out of five as the best countryin the world. Mr. (St. Boniface): My final question is to the First Minister. Hog Industry The producers have indicated they would like to see a MarketingSystem delayin theimplementation. Is the governmentprepared to do so? Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, my question is for theFirst Minister. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, my recollection isthat the initial announcement theminister During the 1995 election your government made the madefall last was that implementation would take place promise to consult withManitoba hog producers before on January1. That was delayed as a result of many making any changes to the marketing system, yet your discussions andmany other procedures that were in place. governmenthas movedsteadily aheadwith changes to the I think that the minister did respond adequately and way hogs are marketed in Manitoba even in the face of properlyto the requests ofManitoba Pork on thatmatter. strong opposition from hog producers.

* (1410) Can the First Minister tell this House why this Teaching Profession governmenthas unilaterallydecided to abolish the single­ Post-Secondary Education deskhog marketingsystem in Manitoba when 76 percent of the hog producers are opposed to the move? I will Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, my table the survey. questions are for theMinister of Education.

Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as I I attended many of the hearings in said earlier, Manitoba Pork is not being abolished. responding to the minister's docmnent Enhancing Manitoba Pork in fact will have greater revenues with Accountability. One of the most poignant presentations which to engagein promotionand marketing ofManitoba came from an experienced teacher in St. James who Pork worldwide to take advantage of markets that talked aboutdisruptive his students, students who ran out continue to expand and opportunities that continue to of class,the student whose, forexample, motherhad been increasefor the saleof Manitoba pork worldwide. Those shot in her face and the child had never uttered a word arethings that arein the best interestsof allManitobans since, aboutthe autistic studentsthat he had in his class, and particularly our economy. I cannot believe that the about the child who had been raped when she was 11. member opposite would not be in favour of the creation He concludedby saying: I want to state that I felt neither of additional thousands of jobs inManitoba. overqualified nor overpaid in these situations; I felt underqualified. Levy Collection I want to ask theMinister of Education, why does she propose in her docwnentthat Manitoba's teachers should Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Your government have less post-secondary education, less training, for an announced last month its intention of clearing up the increasingly demandingjob? backlog of$300,000 in levies owed toManitoba Pork. Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Can theminister tell the House what percentage of this Training): MadamSpeaker, I proposed no such thing in money to date has been paid toManitoba Pork? that document.

Bon . Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will Ms. Friesen: How could the approach of Enhancing take that question as notice on behalf of theMinister of Accountability which suggests that teachers have four Agriculture (Mr. Enns). years of education or less, how does that fit with April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 607

Renewing Education: New Directions which suggests is not only full of inaccuracies but is demeaning to thatteachers mu st possess knowledge of their disciplines, thousands of teachers across this province? have an in-depth integrating and probing mastery of fo undationaltopics, have anunderstanding of economics Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and in the global and local context, an understanding of Training): Madam Speaker, I am not aware of any personal financial management, labour market needs, inaccuracies in the document. I am aware of two career preparation, the national economy, fiscal instances where members opposite have raised questions responsibility- about statements in the document which have then been checked and verified. I say that this is a government Madam Speaker: Order,please. The question has been document which identifies the historical background on put. the collectivebargaining dispute resolution mechanism in Manitoba and lists all the questions and concerns that Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, fo rtunately it also says have been raised by trustees over the decade fo r teachers should have a sense ofhumour. discussion proposing no answers except five possible models and inviting suggestions for other models on the I want to ask the minister, which of these is the disputeresol ution mechanism. The rest of thepoints are department reading from? therefor discussion They raise questions thathave been raised over the decade. The member knows that and is Mrs. Mcintosh: I donot know ifI am going to get time trying to make anissue where none exists. to address all the points the member has put on the record. What I will say, Madam Speaker, is the Manitoba Hydro document Enhancing Accountability is a discussion Reorganization document There are only fiveproposals in it, thosefive being a series of variations on the dispute resolution Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam mechanism currently in the collective bargaining. The Speaker, my question is fo r theMinister responsible fo r restof thepaper simplylists-and the member knows this, Manitoba Hydro. she knows it very well-questions, concerns, comments thathave beenraised by people about education over the For reasons of ideology and helping his friends in last decade. They proposeno answers to those questions; government, this government has broken the Manitoba they simply raise the questions fo r discussion. Telephone System into four divisions making it easier to sell offparts or all of MTS. Having the second lowest She knows the pointshe misedin herfirst questionwas local ratesin North America is not a reason to keep MTS, to deal with thoseteachers who do things such as get a accordingto this government Similarly, this government degree inbusiness accounting to run their summer store, is upset that Manitoba Hydro has the lowest residential she knows specific examples, should that be credited as rates in North America and now plans to break it up as credit fo r their teaching in the schools? It is not meant to well. apply to teachers who go andget relevant education that assists them in the classroom. She knows that. Talk Will the minister tell the House who the consultants about putting red herrings forward, Madam Speaker, I were thatreconnn ended dividingManitoba Hydro up, and thinkwe are hearing one rightnow. were bigger ideas involved in any of the discussions?

Enhancing Accountability Report Bon. (Minister charged with the Accuracy administrationof The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, it always helps a member, I think , when they Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, does come to this House to have a sense of history. The the Minister of Education then take full responsibility, member fo r St. James perhaps should be reminded on indeed, accountability fo r theresearch and writingof this this occasion that Manitoba Hydro has gone through document Enhancing Accountability, a document which internal restructurings in 1981, in 1985, in '86-87 and 608 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April lO, 1996

years whenher partywas in power, so for a corporation is very much driven by theadministrati on in Manitoba to dealwith internal restructuring to meetthe needs of the Hydro who is far more farsighted in their view of Hydro future is not an unheard of thing. and electricity in Manitoba Hydro than her colleagues.

Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, I have a I ampleased to informthe memberthat, yes, they have supplementaryquestion to theminister. used some outside consultation. One of thegroups they consulted was the electrical utility industry group Will he tell the House what the plans are, having management consultants, as well as Ernst & Young. I received it now from Manitoba Hydro, for dividing up would be pleased to provide her, or have Manitoba Manitoba Hydro? Will theminister table the report? Hydro'schief executive officer give her, a full briefing on what they are doing. Ifshe would ask, I would be more Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the member for St. than pleased to provide it. James spoke about the operation of Manitoba Hydro. I cantell her, onthis side of thisHouse, we are very proud Barb Biggar ofManitoba Hydro in terms of its ranking in the country. Manitoba Telephone System Contract It is virtually top or second in its category in all the Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, variety of ratings. It is an extremely efficient and yesterdaywe learnedthat while this government is cutting competitive entity and one of the reasons is because hospitals, Pharmacare and privatizing home care, it is ManitobaHydro over thelast number of yearshas had a alsogoing to be puttingseries ona of ads co-ordinated by very good board of directors and a very, very good oneBarb Biggarat thecost of several hundred thousand presidentin administration, and they have done internally dollars. The same Ms. Biggar has also-we had this a very significantreview of their operation. I have to tell confirmed by the Minister responsible for MTS-a the honourable member that this current internal contract for communications withMTS, and of course, reorganization is very much being driven by the thiscomes at a timewhen thousands many of Manitobans administration of Manitoba Hydro because they arefar havebeen speaking out in favour of keeping our publicly more foresighted, have far much more foresightthan the owned telephone system in public hands. member for St. James and her colleagues.

I would like to ask thePremier (Mr. Filmon) ifhe can Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, is the IIllillSter indicatejust howmuch more money Barb Biggar is going denying that the chair of the board of Hydro clearly to be getting on this contract, the contract withMTS. articulated at the PUB hearings that an external consultant was being hired to aid Hydro in this Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the reconstruction? Who is it, and how many employees are administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): going to be cut underthis plan? Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Telephone System, Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, let not themember for through its board andmana gement, makes decisions of St. James or her colleagues get into another the naturethat the member is raising the question on as feannongering campaignabout thefuture of this utility. to who to hire to do certainfunctions and what they are If the member for St. James would take some time and paid. Ifthe member wants to know, I will find out and study the electrical industry in North America-- get back to him.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am experiencing Manitoba Telephone System greatdiffi culty hearing the minister's response. Privatization

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, if the member for St. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Since the minister is James, ascritic, and collher eagues would take some time goingto beproviding that information later, I would like to studythe changes that are going on today in theNorth toask theminister the if contract will have anything to do American electrical industry, she would appreciate that with theproposed privatization that theminister has been Manitoba Hydro has to undergo some change internally floating, and in fact, whether there will be, on the other in orderto meet that. I can tell her again that this change hand, any provision put aside for the members of the April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 609 public, the owners of MTS, to have input on the final I would like to ask the minister responsible fo r the decision regarding the future of MTS? commission, what is Manitoba's position on having one single securities licensing bodyin regard to the function Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the of the current commission and the potential impacts? administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act ): Madam Speaker, I think the member is aware that the Bon. (Minister of Consumer and telecommunication industry is under an awful lot of Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, since that issue technology change. We have gone from less than 10 was raised in the Speech from the Throne in Ottawa in percent of the revenue in competitionto now 70 percent February, we have been endeavouring to gather of the revenue in competition. We have a technology information with respect to what proposal, if any, is explosionthat is going to cost more money in the future, floating out there beyond the 1994 proposed require more investment on behalf of somebody to keep Memorandum of Understanding. In 1994, when the MTS atthe for efront of the industry where it currently is. federal government floated this issue, there were a number of concerns related to Manitoba, none of which Madam Speaker, we aregoing throughthat analysis as apparently as yetseem to be addressed. However, we are to how to recapitalize MTS in thefuture, and when that in an information-gathering mode at this point to tryand report is in the public will be made aware. findout exactlywhat is being proposed and thenwe will have to address the issue accordingly. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I askedthe minister and I will ask him again, will the public of Manitoba have a Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, my second question is also say over the futureof MTS, or will they be doing what for the same minister. they are doing on home care and with the hog producers and refuse to allow the public of Manitoba to have a say Will the minister tell the House what the impacts of over their phone company? suCha Changemight be upon such vital institutions as the grain exchange or the Manitoba commodities exchange, Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, there is ongoing both of which attract and maintain large offices, head discussion around what I have just mentioned to the offices,here in Winnipeg and are a very vital part of our member and discussion will definitely continue around economy? What is the government's estimation of the MTS and how it can continue to provide its services in impact such a federal move might be on those two the most cost-effective manner and keepthe strength of important bodies? the corporation as strong as possible in the process of delivering that information and that discussion through Mr. Ernst: As I indicated, Madam Speaker, to the various processes will definitely occur. member opposite, there are a number of concerns that are raised by this entire issue of a proposed national * (1420) securities commission. Those are a couple of the issues that causedus some considerable concern, and until we National Securities Commission find out exactly what is being proposed and how issues Proposal such as that would be dealt with, then we have made no decision with respect to whether we support or do not support that proposal. Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible fo r the Manitoba Securities Commission. Proposal-Government Position

The federal government has been actively promoting Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the ideathat there should beone securities licensing body theminister confirmto the House that there are meetings in the country. I understand that the Maritime provinces planned in Ottawa shortly, I believe within the week, to have agreed to this proposal, that is in serious consider and discuss this matter with the federal negotiation on this proposal. government? 610 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April lO, 1996

Will the minister be representing Manitoba at that Part of the problem here has been that they have meeting? What position will he be advancing on behalf wanted Repap to stop their cutting in a rather large area of Manitobans at that meeting? because they hadnot yet made their specific selection. I understand from the report I had back during the noon Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and hour that they were in agreement with this type of Corporate Affairs): For the information of the member process. Theystill had some work to do on their specific opposite, the meeting is today and at that meeting selection, and I understand we should be meetingagain representing the Province of Manitoba are my deputy in the nextfew weeks. Hopefully, thiswill lead to them minister, as well asthe chair of the Manitoba Securities gettingon with their selection, andwe certainlyare very Commission. Theythere, are Madam Speaker, to present willing to get on with the process of actual selection of our list of concerns and to learn from the federal land. government and from the Province of Ontario who have Mr. Lathlin: MadamSpeaker, I commend the minister been the only ones carrying on bilateral discussions, as for, on the bigger question of treaty land entitlement, far as we are aware up to this point, to find out what saying that there is progress being made and he is not at proposals they have to make. libertyto say in the Chamber as to when that issue might Treaty LandEntitlements be settled, but I want to also advise the minister that he Mathias Colomb First Nation knows full well that currently in Winnipeg there are meetings going on between a federal negotiator and the representatives from the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. Mr. Oscar Lathlin(The Pas): Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister about a meeting that he had this What I would ask the minister then, as a fo llow-up to morning with the representatives of Mathias Colomb my first one, is what kindof time frame is he looking at FirstNation and ask him to report to the Assembly as to in terms of when the issue at Pukatawagan might be whether any real progress was made in that meeting, finallyresolv ed. specifically in regard to the band's issue of treaty land entitlement firstly and then, secondly, as TLE pertains to Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, if I may fo r a the rest of the bandsin Manitoba. moment-the member asks a verygood question, I think, abouttime frames, and one of the problems to date in this Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for whole process, I would hope hewould agree, has been NativeAtTain): Madam Speaker, the member asks two quitefrankly all of us, including the bands, the provincial questions. I will deal with thelatter one first. governments, federal government, when it comes to specificselections, have been debating a lot of theory and With respect to the overall treaty land entitlement criteria. One of the things we have suggested in the last situation, hasthere been a series of discussions going on while is we get on with specifics, because my experience intensely over the last week between the three parties has been when you look at specific pieces of land, it is involved, and I am hopeful that we willhave some very much easier to work the problem and be able to resolve positive news in the near future. I am not in a position it ratherthan dealing with theory and criteria. today to give a full reportto the House, as I am sure the member can appreciate. On that basis I can assure him that we have made, in my opinion at least, very significant progress in the last Withrespect specifically to the Mathias Colomb First while, and I hope that within a very short period to have Nationand their particular issue in a Repap cuttingarea, a very positive announcement, along with my colleagues, we wrote to their chief last week and invited him to a of the treaty land entitlement committee as well as our meetingthis morningthat was held not with myself but federal colleagues with respectspecificall y to the Mathias with my deputy minister, as well as officials with the Colomb Band. They have selected a portion of their Department ofNatural Resources. We have suggested land. Some of that we have already agreed to; others we very stronglyto them that they get on with selecting their are working through the process. They have indicated a particular landthat they are interested in and working it willingness to select specifically in the area where they throughthe process in that general area. are in dispute with Repap, and I am not trying to say April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 611

there still will not be problems, but I think those Manitoba with a ballot box and let producers vote on the problems work themselves through when we get on to single-desk selling advantage of Manitoba Pork? specific selections. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, my Thatthe is kind ofinitiative that we have been talking response is the same as it was to the similar question about andI thinkhas had a good response from everyone asked both by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) involved. I am hoping very shortly that we canhave an and the member fo r Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). overall positive announcement Mathias Colomb stillhas a lot to work out. I do not want to give the impression Pharmacare otherwise, but at least we will be working on specific Income Statement-student Loans problems rather than theory. Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. Hog Industry Land Usage Yesterday, I asked him whether it was meanness or incompetence that led to the government including Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my student loans in the calculation of income under the new question is to the Premier. Pharmacare program, and apparently he admitted then outside the House that it was in fact incompetence, This year this government embarked on a move to perhaps because he was in such a hurry to get rid of destroy the single-desk selling advantage fo r Manitoba universality in Pharmacare. hogs. My question to the Premier is, when will his government be acting on the sustainability My question to the minister is: How much will this recommendations, specifically those relating to the bungle cost Manitobans in order to correctthis mistake, establishment of the livestock operations renewal panel this second bungle by the minister, on the Pharmacare which municipal councils and hog producers could call changes? upon when considering land uses? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will Speaker, in an overhaul of a program of the nature just take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of undertaken, there are pamphlets and information pieces Agriculture (Mr. Enns). thatgo out, and indeedthe in one the honourable member brought to our attention yesterday, there was a word that Waste Disposal wasg wron that led people to the impression that student loans were considered income, which anybody can figure Mr. StanStruthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, to the outthat a loan isnot income, and so obviously a mistake Premier again: When will his government introduce was made in the printing. guidelines relating to waste disposal which will specificallyexamine how much hog sewage canbe stored There will be subsequent reprints of the document in lagoons, and what the maximum limit will be on the because Manitobans will continue to need to be informed disposal of effluent? about how to access the Pharmacare program, and in subsequent printings that error will be corrected. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Mr. Mackintosh: My supplementary to the minister Agriculture (Mr. Enns). since he did not answer the question is, how much will this mistake cost Manitobans?

Marketing System Mr.McCrae: I donot thinkthere is any cost attached to the correction of the problem. There will be a cost Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, will attached tosubsequent printings which would have been the Premier show some courage and come out to rural undertaken in any event. 612 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April lO, 1996

Enhancing Accountability Report these because they could become collector's items at the Written Submissions rate this government is going to destroy Manitoba Pork.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, the I would like to say, Madam Speaker, that I would like Minister of Education has ordered that all the written to take this opportunity to recognize the delegates at submissions to Enhancing Accountability and the Manitoba Pork who are having their annual meeting in hearings that were held across the province, that all those Winnipeg and fa cing very serious challenges because of submissions be held in confidence and that citizens of the actions that this government has taken. Manitoba be required to go to Freedom of Information and pay the fe e, wait the time, to learn what their fe llow When I tabled mypetition, I heard one of the members citizens said elsewhere in Manitoba. across the way call me a dragon. I will have to tell him thatif I have tobe a dragon I will continue to be a dragon I wonderif the minister could give us some explanation andfight fo r the producers of Manitoba ifthat is what it of why this requirement fo r such secrecy. takes.

Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and I did notmake anypromises during the election. I said Training): Madam Speaker, notwithstanding the fact that I will stand up for Manitoba Pork, and I will that the member frequently just goes to Freedom of continue to, not like the othermembers across the way Information without comingto me first to get us to do her who, at many public meetings-we know that their research fo r her-saves her caucus staff some time, I candidates said that there would not be any changes to guess-notwithstanding that, thewritten submissions are Manitoba Pork unless it was what the producers wanted. certainly available. The public, the producers of Manitoba, have beenmisled.

The onlythings that we have saidare not available, and The pork industry is a very important industry in this in my opinion would never be available from me in my province, and we want to see it survive. We want to see 16 years as an elected official, are private letters that the producers in this province survive. But what this come to me which have always been treated by me as government is doing is moving towards vertical confidential. Something addressed to me I never reveal integration. All members, I am sure , saw Country without that third party's permission, and that is how Canadawhere we saw whatsystem this North in Carolina Freedom of Informationwor ks. did, what it did to the people of the area, what it did to the water supply in the area and what it did fo r the Anywritten submission that is in a formal presentation producers who got caught up in the system and ended up is certainly available without FOI, but ifshe is talking losing very much. about people, and she knows I have received many written documents that were sent to me as personal I would just like to say that what the government is correspondence, without those people authorizing the doing is wrong. They should be listening to producers. release of those, I would never breach their implied Producers should have the opportunity to have a say if confidentiality to me. there is going to be a change in their industry, and we will continue to fight on that. Thankyou. Madam Speaker: The time fo r Oral Questions has expired. Government's Economic Strategy

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mr. David Newman (Riel): Madam Speaker, this government 's economic strategy is about jobs. We have Manitoba Pork long recognized twokey fucts : firstly, that the strength of our economy depends on keeping Manitobans employed Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam and, secondly, that our role as a government is to make Speaker, on eachmember 's desk there is a fridge magnet Manitoba a fe rtile environment which is ripe for from Manitoba Pork. I would tell all members to keep investment and job creation. April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 613

Creating anenviromnent which isattractive to business In my constituency, people who use Paint Lake, and investment is a strategy which is working, and we including a senior whophoned me who hasused it for 22 canfind evidenceof this from a variety of recent sources. years, will not be able to afford to have a seasonal For instance, recently the Conference Board of Canada camping permit this year. There is no increase in the provided statistics and projections supporting the topic bare-bones services that exist at Paint Lake. What is that Manitoba was steamrolling ahead. We posted happening isthat the government is engaged in a revenue growth of 5.4 percent in the manufacturing sector last grab from the seasonal campers. year. We are expecting to expand another 8.4 percent this year. We also posted 6.8 percent growth in mining Madam Speaker, the minister also said yesterday he and 15.4 percent in construction. This kind of growth thought that people would not mind the 100 percent creates jobs. In fa ct, this led to the creation of about increase. Well, have I got news for the minister and this 10,000 new jobs last year. government Now, thenews I have to indicate came from a public meeting of over a week ago which was attended Many people point to Winnipeg as anideal location for by seasonal campers in my constituency: I cannot repeat business. Linda Rankin, for example, thepresident and allof thecomments because 90percent of them would be CEO ofthe Wom en'sTelevision Network and Winnipeg consideredunparl iamentary, but they areall of the nature 2000 publication written by proud, young Manitoba of, give us a break, let us get serious, do not increase the entrepreneurs-and I urge all honourable members to read feesby a hundredpercent If you are going to look at any it-she lists several reasons for locating her business here increases, lookat reasonable increases. rather than in Toronto. These are significantly lower business costs, friendly and supportive municipal and Landlords are allowed a cost increase of what-1 provincial government, available skilled resources; lower percent. Thecost of living is2.7 percent. Even ifyou go housing costs and a supportive business community back to the last increase that took place in 1989, evenif among other things. you calculatethe inflationrate, it is still significantly less than a hundred percent. This is not the only story but one of many. This morning's Free Press reports thatthe Winnipeg office's Madam Speaker, what is particularly infuriating is the vacancy rate is the second lowest of all of Canada's fa ct that this government brought in these changes with major centres. This is attributed to thegrowth of small a two-weeknotice, and in fa ct because of the differences business. We have consistently stressed the importance in the timing of applications, many people had a three­ of small business to Manitoba's economy and have day periodwhich in to decide whether they were going to diligentlyworked to provide an enviromnent where small renew their camping permits in Thompson or look at business will flourish. Evidently this is working. other options in southern Manitoba.

Ourefforts as a vernmgo ent to provide anenviromnent I alsowant to indicate, Madam Speaker, I do not think which is friendly to business and provides jobs for it isany acci dent thatmost of the bigincreases have been Manitobans isindeed bringing about results. Thank you, in northern Manitoba. Northern Manitobans aresick and Madam Speaker. tiredof being punishedby this government, and seasonal campers say to the Minister of Natural Resources, (Mr. Seasonal Camping Permit Rates Driedger), get serious, do not increase our fees by a hundred percent. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, yesterday our Natural Resources critic raised the outrage Working for Value Rural Task Force of manyseasonal campers over the ridiculous increase of upto 100 percent in seasonal camping fee s brought in by Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Madam Speaker, it gives this govermnent. The Minister of Natural Resources me great pleasure to rise in the House today. (Mr. Driedger) had the nerve to stand up and say this is becauseof the services that are being provided. There is Over the last seven weeks throughout February and no improvement in services. March, I hadthe pleasure of being the co-chair for the 614 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 10, 1996

Working fo r Value ruraltask fo rce, andI would like to It is clear thatthis government does not support new saythat it wasa real pleasure to travel around Manitoba. immigrants in their difficult transition into our society. We visited some 26 different communities and had a Cuts to these essential services in the provincial budget chance to talkand to have discussion with the people in ensures that the linguistic and cultural barriers that rural Manitoba. immigrants face are maintained. Lack of a systematic and fo rmal plan of action on the government's behalfto I would like to thank in particular those people who monitor and assist immigrant entrepreneurs arriving has helped us in terms of logistics of putting on the task contributed to business closures and a lower rate of fo rce, some of the staffmembers who travelled with us, immigrants staying in Manitoba. andto them we owe a deep gratitude fo r all the help that they gave us. But, more particularly, Madam Speaker, I It is important that this government recognize the would like to give thanks to those people who contributions that immigrants make to the Manitoba participated, who took time out of their busy daily economy. Immigrants bring money when they enter the activities to come and spend some time at the task force, province, assist the economy through their consumption andparticularly in participating in the discussion groups of products and create jobs through investment in because it wasin thedi scussion groups that we were able business development. to find out from the various communities some of the strengths that they had, some of the opportunities, and, The Manitoba government should put pressure on the yes, they also pointed out some of the constraints that federal government toeliminate the immigration head tax were in their way whether it be from government or which was re-enforced in the federal budget. By not otherwise. eliminating the head tax, the federal government has condoned the maintenance of a two-tier immigration We really appreciate those comments that were made. system. Such a system is reminiscent of the immigration We indicated tothe people at that time that we take their policy that existed during a dark period of Canadian commentsvery seriously. We have. We willbe doing a history. Immigrants contribute a great deal to our preliminary report at the rural forum in Brandon with a society; however, policies such as the head tax simply finalreport this fall. target and penalize this group of people. The Tory government mu st speak out against this indirect taxation So I would like to again thank everybody who scheme. participated in thesetask rural fo rce meetings. That is all I have. Thanks. Immigration to Manitoba has dropped by nearly 50 percent since 1990. In addition, Manitoba is the only * (1430) province inCanada to record fe wer arrivals in each of the last five minutes. The Tory government must take Immigrants responsibility fo r its own actions and try to find Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Cultural diversity innovative methods to increase and maintain the is one of Manitoba's greatest strengths. Unfortunately, immigration to the province of Manitoba. Thankyou. the Conservative government does not fee l the same way as the . This fa ct is reflected in ORDERS OF THE DAY the 1996-97 provincial budget. The Conservative BUDGET DEBATE government cut over $1 million from Culture, Heritage (Fifth Day of Debate) and Citizenship. Infact, there was a decrease of $96,700 towards the development of programs that assisted Madam Speaker: To resume debate, on the proposed immigration admission aswell as to provide support such motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. as training and language skills fo r the integration of Stefanson), and on the proposed motion of the immigrants in Manitoba. There was a 5.4 percent cut in honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) grant assistance to immigrants, a 26 percent cut to the in amendmentthereto, and on the proposed motion of the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council and a 25.7 honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) in percent cut to the Community Places Program. further amendment thereto. April 10, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 615

Bon. (Minister of Labour): Madam side want us to adhere to. Our largest single source of Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure to rise in support of the revenue is the personal income tax, and almost halfof ninth budget of this government, the ninth budget in what Manitobans pay goes towards that interest on the which Manitobans continue to experience no new debt. Thatmoney is that is not able to be spent on health increases in personal income tax and sales taxrate s. care, education, justice or highways. This is money that is not available even fo r tax reductions. As the MLA for Rossmere, time and again, my constituents-and I assume the other constituents for the By again balancing the budget and paying down the othermembers are telling their members the same thing, debt, we will reduce the burden of interest payments and that they are taxed to the limit, and I am pleased to eventually free up more money for services. Again, continue to tell them how proud I am to be a part of a Madam Speaker, this is responsible governance, caring government that has been able to maintain the longest about our future generations and ensuring that our youth runningtax freeze in Canada. do not have to carrythe burden of previous governments' mistakes, the burdenof deficits and debts created, yes, by As my colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. our generation. Stefanson) stated, this budget also delivers the first back­ to-hack budgetary surpluses, $120 million fo r 1995-96 (Mr. EdwardHelwer, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) and $22 million in '96-97, and this has beenfor almost a generation, I believe 1971. You know, as much as I sometimes try to avoid the Winnipeg FreePress, thereare notable changes in the last Madam Speaker, this is a responsible government. A little while that the Winnipeg Free Press-yes, even the governmentthat islooking tothe future, ensuring that our Winnipeg Press-appearsFree to be recognizing that this youth do not have to cany theburden of irresponsible government is doing somethings right. And I amnot just spend, spend, spend and tax, tax, tax-practices thatthe sayingthat because member a or a former member of our previous government left us as its legacy. What it will be House is now an editor of that Free Press and remembered for is spend, spend, spend andtax, tax, tax. coincidentallyhappens to be sitting in the gallery. This government is taking action to protect future generations, and the Minister of Finance's budget is An Honourable Member: Who would that be? paving theway for this to happen. Ourbalanced budget legislationdoes provide basis the fo r a strongereconomy. Mr. Toews: Well, I will leave that, for the record, Numerous newsarticles prn.ising ourgovernment 's efforts anonymous, but, Mr. Acting Speaker, Mr. John Douglas in this regard have been written by reputable, recognized on April 6 of '96 in the Free Press business knowledgeable and impartial analysts. section thatthe Pes' fiscalpolicy is paying off and again recognized, and the only unfortunate thing is that this In 1982, Manitobans paid through their taxes $114 recognition goes inthe business section, usually the back million in a year in interest on the debt. In 1988, when of the newspaper, and perhaps this type of article, this the NDP, with the help of one of their former colleagues, typeof good news shouldbe brought up more to the front was extracted from office, the taxpayers of Manitoba along with some of the better editorials that are being were paying over $545 million. For a party which is penned by the WinnipegFree Press. constantly criticizing businesses and banks, there seems to be a real affection towards banks because they love to * (1440) pay banks interest Ifthere was anythingthat they love to do, it is to find a bank to pay them interest. But this year the Filmon government will spend, he says, 33.8 percent of its budget on health care. That Well, Madam Speaker, I do not think that is a good compares with the NDP, who, in 1985-86, spent 31.4 policy. As much as we appreciate banks and any percent of their budget on health care. This week's company creating jobs here, I would rather the budget, I would alsonote, as did Mr.John Douglas note, government of Manitoba not owe them any interest. Yet was noteworthy because it spends more money this year thatis still the philosophythat mycolleagues on the other on economic and resource development than on public 616 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April lO, 1996

debt costs. fa In ct, the $575 million Manitoba will spend we need to encourage private investment. Members on debt financing this year is the fifth highest opposite think that we can create wealth by just having expenditure, and as John Douglas says, that is quite a government pay other government departments and differencefrom the NDP dayswhen it was third. But that continually circulate the old money. That is not the way is the priority of the NDP government in the past. It is it woiks. They know, better andthey only create mischief not the priority of this government. We do not want to when they suggest otherwise. pay banksmore interest; we would like to pay banks less interest, despite the encouragement of the members I recently had an opportunity to attend a conference opposite. entitled Industrial Relations in the 21st Century. The topic of trade and the globalization of capital and the The Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) shared with effects on labour relations were discussed and debated. us the positive economic performance in the areas of Attendees were from Canada, Mexico and the United manufacturing, agriculture, mining and nonresidential States. There were representatives from the union construction, transportation and retail sales. There is movement, from employers and from government optimi.sm; thereis hope. Manitobans understand the need officials. for restraint toensure a brighter future, and I believe that Manitobans are willing to help in the process. Unlike, It was evident throughout this conference that the Mr. Acting Speaker, thevoice of doom mired in socialist globalization oftrade and capital is having a huge impact rhetoric of the 1930s that our honourable members from on the way countries around the world do business. the NDP continuallyspread throughout the province, they Times arechanging rapidly, andtraditional ways of doing offer no hope, and they continue to be defenders of the business, traditional ways of creating wealth are proving status quo andold style governance, which is not a viable to be outdated. Just by way of example, any ofyou who option in the neweconomy . It is ironic that we are called have experienced the Internet have witnessed the the Conservatives, whenin fa ct the true reactionaries, the incredible access to information that we have in a matter true people who do not believe in change, are the NDP, of seconds. Technological advances are surpassing the defenders of the status quo. I see more life, more traditional methods of communication. There is an optimism evenin the Liberal Party than I do in the NDP. emerging public that is no longer dependent on newspapers or even television to get their information. As I have indicated in this House before, Mr. Acting We can now communicate through the Internet at a Speaker, there are two key global trends that are fraction of the cost of the traditional telephone system. continuing tooccurand continue tohave an impact on the Change is occurring rapidly, and we must move to stay waywe do business, the way our people in Manitoba do ahead of that change to create the wealth, to protect our business and the way the government must react. These social programs that rely on that wealth created by are the globalization of trade and the globalization of private industries here in Manitoba. investment capital. These are facts. They are not opinions. They are not options. They are realities that Manitoba is a trading andoutward -looking province. we must deal with. It is in the forefront of that change. Manitobans lmow Members opposite would have us build walls around thatprosperity their isdependent on their ability to adapt. this province. The walls will mean that the business, the It is unfortunate that the opposition keeps on trying to jobs, theopportunities will walk around us and will find pull Manitoba back into the old ways of doing things. other areas in which to invest and to create jobs. With The oldwald, populated by socialists withtheir cries fo r the disappearance of businesses and jobs go our social government handouts and a free ride, are rapidly losing programs. I fa il to see how members opposite do not their way. recognize this integral connection between the encomagement of the private sector to create wealth and Whatthe is response thenof government inthis time of the strength of our social programs. change, and where does this lead industrial relations? It wasinteresting to note, while attending the conference on We believe in social programs here. We believe in industrialrelations , what the experts were saying. When sustainable socialpro grams. That is why we believe that I am speaking of experts, I am referring to individuals April 10, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 617

representing major unions, employers, governments and Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, academia. There was one common theme emerging representsmu nicipal workers in the cityof Indianapolis. through that conference, and that is change. The reality The cityat that timewas facedwith many of these same is that we are working within a different economic problems that our municipalities and our province faces. structure. Labour legislation, Mr. Acting Speaker, is a They realizethat unless restructurethey some of the ways reflection of the times, and we must continue to ensure thatthey deliver their services, they would not be able to that labour legislation is relevant in today's economy. afford these services. Laws under which unions operate, laws which protect workers, laws which facilitatejobs, laws which facilitate Now, this particular union leader opposed strict small business anda mobile workforce must be examined privatization of city services, and he was pretty to ensure that they protect the traditional concerns aggressive on that point. He spoke out for his regarding workers, workplace safety andthe job itself. membership, and he specifically ran in his campaign against that kind of platform by the mayor who was Today's economy stresses mobility and capital. running. Now, in fact, when that mayor won the Business moves freelythroughout the world. Whether we election, and the union suddenly realized they had to like that fact or not, it does, and we must ensure that we work with government in order to secure the future of capture our fa ir share of that market to ensure that our theirmembers , they did work together, and today in that people in Manitoba, ourpeople in Canada, benefitfrom city privatization is a nonissue. What the real issue is, this new economy. Ouryoung people who are graduating Mr. Acting Speaker, is competition. What the union from colleges and universities today know this. They leader said, he wants the city union to win because it know that they must adapt to a changing world. Our gives administrationmore flexibility. So he wanted them labour relations must ensure that walls are not put in the towin these bids because the way they delivered services way for our youth to enter the workforce. Labour wouldoffer better a business dealto the city. He said, we relationsmust also provide opportunity not only for those can throw a blade onto garbage trucks during who already have jobs but for people who are entering snowstorms, for example. He said: That is just an the workforce. They must provide this opportunity. example of theversa tility; you use one set of equipment for anotherpurpose. He demonstratedto the city, this is I see some very encouraging signs that employers are the way you do things, you work together. recognizing the changing environment. Unions, as well, recognize thatif they do not take steps to address these To compete, whatthe union did was to remove narrow, new realities and change structures and program delivery old-style task descriptions that had the dual effect of that they too will be by-passed by businesses that will raising costs and pricing members out ofjobs. Instead, find a way to work around them rather than work with what he said is, let us look at how we deliver those them. services, and in most of these situations, the unions have come out ontop by preservingjobs for their membership. I know, Mr. Acting Speaker, that it will grate the If the unions say, we will not co-operate, we will not members opposite Iwhen saythat the if labour movement work, we will not deliver services in any other way than does not change they will become irrelevant. We only we have been,they will lose every time inthe long run, have tolook south of the border to see what is happening but the progressive unions, mainstream unions, have in the United States. In the United States, unionized adapted and have protected their workers. workforces are at an all-time low, approximately 11 percent. Is this what the unions want in Canada? Now, what do we want in Canada? Do we want the destructionof the union movement? I would say no. I * (1450) would say, we do not want that destruction of theunion movement, and indeed, the policies of the members I would just briefly make note of an article in the oppositeare in fact ensuring the destruction of the union Winnipeg Sun on April 9 in 1996 headlined, U.S. movement, ensuring the same course of conduct that unionist offers practical realism. This particular occurred and resulted in a rate of unionization at 11 individual, a union leader of Council 62, American percent in the United States. We want to work together 618 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 10, 1996

with theunions to provide theservices for our people, Why is this? Why is this dynamism occurring in andwe provide the contracts to those unions not because small-town Manitoba? Why is the economy booming? they are public or private, but because they were Whyare people optimistic about the future? For the one competitive and delivered the best service. thing they do not have the Free Press to contend with there. But secondly, they have seenthe future, and they I believe that Canadians are no less able to adapt and areadapting toit. They are ahead of the future. They are to provide that level of service. InCanada, in Manitoba, making their move beforehand. They have seen the we must work together. The worst thing that we could future, and they are making the economy boom in do, whether we are employers, government or unions, is Manitoba. We here in the city are benefiting directly not to acceptchange . It is not to participatein change, from the aggressive business and ketingmar of those and the worstthing isnot tokeep talking about how these people in these rural communities. changes should occur. Ouryoung people, as they move into the workforce, will have little understanding, Believe it or not, sometimes we here in the city of patience or sympathy for a baby boomer generation that Wimripeghave things tolearn from ourrural cousins and throwsup roadblocks makingit difficult for them to enter our nualcolleagues and our rural friends. Ifwe cantake into the workforce. some of that dynamismand import it-[inteijection]

I recently read in The Globe and Mail an article Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I amhaving great regarding job growth. He referred to the different · difficulty hearing the honourable member put his employment picture in Europe versus North America. presentation forward. I would ask the minister ifhe For the last decade, Europe has basically seen no couldput his comments through the Chair. It might add employment growth while in North America employment to the decorum of the House. The honourable minister, growth is steadily increasing. to continue. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Mr. Toews: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was just Chair) encouraging members opposite to embrace some of this As well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is interesting to note new dynamism, some of this new optimism, from that the U.S. is much higher than Canada in terms of whatever part of our economy it comes from, from employmentgrowth. The reason that Europe is doing so whatever geographical part of Manitoba it comes from. poorly in creating jobs according to this expert opinion is because of a rigid labour market, high taxation, (Madam Speaker in the Chair) stultifying government regulations and anoveregulated economy. Whathappening is in Europe is an example of We do notjust wantto talkabout rural Manitoba. We what takesplace when governments do not get their own also want to talk about northern Manitoba. house in order and are not proactive in dealing with economic realities in a changing world. * (1500)

Recently I hadan occas ionto travel withmy colleagues I know that some of my colleagues in the NDP have insoutheast Manitoba. Perhaps thathas been one of the seen the dynamism of workers in the North as well and most exciting things about my year in politics so fa r, not the mine operators working together with the unions to only the honour of representing the people of Rossmere ensure that wealth is generated and that those taxes are but totravel withmy colleagues in rural Manitoba. They paid as a result of these jobs that are being created and have taught me many things, and they have shown me that our social programs are protected. I do not think I many things. I know that they are trying their very best can speak with exception. Let me put that in a positive to break me out of this Perimeter mentality. To a great way . I speak without exception in this House when I extent, they are. I would encourage all members to go know that we all want to protect our social programs. beyond the Perimeter more often, those especially who We have different ways of approaching it. I believe the live in thecity, and to see the dynamismthat is occurring systemthat is reflected in the budget brought down by the in the rural areas. Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) is, in fact, the best, April 10, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 619

but that does not stop us from listening to members Ms. MaryAnnMihychuk (St. James): It is anhonour opposite from time to time. Sometimes they, too, have a to be able to rise on this occasion to speak on behalf of good idea. the government's budget However, I rise with a sense of regret and disappointment.

Madam Speaker, I would now like to take a few Madam Speaker, the budget is an opportunity for the minutes to talk about health, education and family government to present its priorities, its vision. However, services. Theseare thethree priority areas fo r myself, for I thinkthat truly this government has lost its vision. This the government and for the Manitoba public, as well. I budget is very disappointing, because its clear agenda is amin constanttouch withthe general public and various to mislead the people of Manitoba through omissions, special interest groups in the social services, health and underestimates anddeliberately misleading language. teaching professions, and I do not use the concept of a special interestgroup as a derogatory term because some Thereare always winnersand losers in a budget and, in of these groups have special interests that they represent, this budget, the majority, the average Manitoban, is the and they have a mandate to represent those groups, but loser. For example, ifwe look in the sector of health we haveto recognize where each of these special interest care, all of us will become ill at one time in our lives. groups come from, and we take that advice from all Now we see a clear attack on those who are ill. sectors of the economy, from all segments of our Individuals who have received care in institutions are population, and consider it in determining policy. now intheir homes and,to the benefit of this government, they are reaping the savings of that community-based But I thinkthat what all of these groups are saying is health care. that we must protect these priority items, and the money that we are spending clearly reflects our priorities. The In my own fa mily, my mother-in-law looks after her reforms that the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) is husband and her mother in their home in Woodlands, bringing in through the budget is bringing fo rward saving the government thousands of dollars in care. She affordable health care, sustainable health care and will does that out of her good will and out of compassion for ensureit that willprotect our health services in the future. her family members. The idea that this government would now consider privatizing and for them to lose that I would urge members opposite, Madam Speaker, to continued service perhaps is a great disturbance to our talkto the Premier of or let members of the fa mily. Liberal opposition speak to the Prime Minister or indeed toMr. Axworthyor to Premier McKenna. Now, we may MadamSpeaker, does it make sense to do that? Does not agree here in the government with the priorities of the it make sense? Most people in Manitoba would say no. NDP in terms of their tax, tax and taxor the Liberals in terms of cutting the wrong end, but I am sure that both It is true that the cost of health care is rising, but of the Liberals in Ottawa and the NDP in Saskatchewan course weare not so naive tofo rget that we have an aging could educate members opposite about the hard fiscal society. It is to be expected that we have increased health realities, and I am proud to be associated with a costs. It is a responsibility of those who are younger, government that hasmade hard choices in the long-term who are in the workforce and who are able to support best interests of the people of Manitoba. those needs. We have made that commitment as Manitobans, as Canadians to support those who Now, I understandthat my time is almost at end. I will unfortunately need to use our health care system. have opportunity later on to speak about some of the proposals in labour reform, and I welcome comments This government, I believe, has lost its focus and, from all groups. I have been going throughout the through a budget which has mislead Manitobans by not province speakingto allgroups, the unions, to employers, clearly articulating how it is going to proceed with the andmy ideas, the ideas of our party are, in fa ct, going to cuts, has betrayed Manitobans. Not only do we see a ensureprofitable labour relations fo r all parties involved. major revision of the Home Care programin theagenda, Thankyou, Madam Speaker. but Pharmacare was radically cut, Pharmacare, which 620 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 10, 1996

provided medication to many families, medications * (1510) which are basically a formof treatment. Ms.Mihychuk: Well,just look at the- a member on the I cannot understand a government that does not think other side of the House is saying "to me." that taking medications is an integral part of a comprehensive health care system. If this is not Goout andspeak to Manitobans. When you tell them dismantling a health care system, I amnot sure what is. what the cost of a bedat Seven Oaks is compared to St. Medication willkeep manypeople alive andmany people B, whatmakes sense ? Obviously, theMinister of Health healthy enough to continue in the workforce. (Mr. McCrae) has lost focu s and is not looking at commonor sense economic planningwith these decisions fo r bed cuts . Madam Speaker, these types of cuts will not necessarily impact the poor, and that is true, the In addition, we have seen the release of people from government has to be given credit. There are some hospitals or the encouragement of people to leave people that bewill covered and will actually have a more hospitals very early. Madam Speaker, I had the great comprehensive program. It is not the very rich that are fo rtune to have a baby last year at the Misericordia worried about these changes in Pharmacare. Who does Hospital and stayed less than 24 hours in the hospital. I it hit? It hits the working class, it hits the middle class. feel very satisfiedwith thecare that I received; however, Those are the people that may do without, that may there are many families who do not receive the support decide to skip a certain medication, will think, well, I thatthey need A recent study that was cited yesterday on have some choices to makein omhousehold budget. The CBC indicated that although 80 percent of women tryto increased cost of paying for medication canbe as highas breast-feedtheir infantsthey do not receive the support at $3,000 forsome families, a Vf!Y difficult situation for any home because of early dismissal from hospitals. So fa mily to fa ce. women areleft to struggle trying provideto a warmand a workable feed ing environment for infants without the Not only did they basically wipe out the Pharmacare carefrom thehospital s. That means that apparently there program for middle income earners, they also have a has been a substantial increase in the number of infants hidden agendaofhospital bed cuts and, quite frankly, we retwning tohospitals through dehydration and not getting have not said that we would not support some bed the proper nourishment. Mothers being frustrated, not closures in hospitals and institutions. In fact, we are getting tionthe properatten athome, the medical care that looking to provide more community care. The problem they need, and then abandoning nursing. Those types of with the budget, in my opinion, is that it hasnot clearly shortsighted health care by cutting institutional care and articulated where those cuts are going to come. This is not providing the community-based care leads in the long whythe government haslost credibility, Madam Speaker. run to more health care costs, a less healthy community Behonest withManito bans. Clearlyarticulate how many and a very poorplannin g on behalf of this government. hospital beds are going to come out of rural Manitoba? How many hospital beds are going to come out of the In termsof preventative health care this government's Grace Hospital? Tell us what is the plan fo r the vision is indeedvery poor. Perhaps they consider the fa ct Misericordia Hospital. Does it make sense to close thattheir vision is so poor, they thought they would do it SevenHospital Oaks when that community struggled for for the rest of Manitobans by cutting the eye care years to create a state-of-the-art fa cility which is program fo r Manitobans, but we will not be foo led, supported by those people? I do not think so. To do Madam Speaker. The fa ct is that regular eye what? To move those bedsfrom a community setting. A examinations do detect certain diseases and changes community hospital provides service fo r less than the within eye care. teaching hospitals. How does it make sense to move it from a community hospital into St. B and the General? We hope that indeed these types of cuts will be It just economically does not make sense. remembered,I and have no doubt that this government is onits lastpitiful legs of governing as we see Manitobans An Honourable Member: To you? fm ally seeing the deception and the poor planning on Apri1 10, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 621 behalfof this government. Not only have theylost their goal is to cover 50 percent of those costs, that it is vision. but they have also done other things, Madam coming close, it is going to be equitable to the actual Speaker, that have impacted on preventativehealth care government grant that a public school gets? The language and the commitment that this government has For example, theynow have moved towards providing made has ensured that independent private schools will schools withthe option theycall-and they are very big on have even better than before. The agreement of an 80 using the word "choice" -[interjection]-choices. Choice percent commitment-which I did not agree with, which and choices is becoming a favourite term of this we did not agree with on this side-does not necessarily government However, what it really means is the choice equate to thenew language of 50 percent of actual costs. to exclude physical education from the curriculum in schools. Is that preventative health? We know that our Madam Speaker, had theylooked in some detail, this children are less healthy thanthey have beenin thepast, isa radicallydifferent funding fo nnula, andwhat I find so that the one thing that we need to do, which is very objectionable is that there was not the clear articulation important, is to increase their physical activityso that it of thatin thebudget Ifyou have made this commitment, will provide them with an environment with a healthy behonest, be open. Tell Manitobans that you have come condition to learn better, and at the same time this up with a new funding formula, you have made a new government is squeezing out programs like physical deal with private schools, you are going to go and education. increase funding and come out and be honest and be brave enough to tell us what the increase for private In addition. Madam Speaker, the emergency room schools is. As indicated, if we look at the actual closme fiasco that wethrou went ghjust before Christmas numbers, it could be an increase of over 15 percent. was an example of a government that has very poor vision at best. Here we have a situation where the Madam Speaker, this government's funding decisions government decided it was going to close emergency in terms of public schools have meant fewer resources, rooms in community hospitals at night. Had they given older textbooks that are going to be recycled over and it morethan asecond's thought, perhaps they would have over and over again, more students in classrooms, less keptemergency roomsopen at nightwhen the community help for those who need it, feweroptions for the gifted facilities such as clinics are actually closed. Many of students that we hope will accelerate and be the future these decisions have been reversed becausebasically of leaders, fewer options and much less help for those I think thegood work of Manitobans who were outraged students who need it, ESL students, handicapped by such fo olish decisions. students.

Madam Speaker, I would like to briefly discuss some The decisions that may seemfa irly sterile, a minus 2 of the items that this budget offers in terms of education percent, impact on the classroom and impact on our which was, quite frankly, vety little. The losers in this children. The decision at the same time as announcing a budget are public schools. Let us not fo rget that this is a minus 2 to public schools to start a directed attack government that cutpublic schools by 2 percent a few againstpublic schoolteachers was done deliberately, and months ago-announcing that separate from the that also provides uncertainty and low morale for those budget-and in addition has provided a vety clouded, teachers who are facing even more pressures in the misleading statement about the funding of private classroom, Madam Speaker. schools. The language hasbeen radically altered. What they are now discussing is providing supports on the * (1520) basis of actual costs. The other day I happened to have the opportunity to We have some school divisions where theactual cost talk to one of our superintendents of our inner school to educatea student is close to$6,600 per pupil. Support division who was telling me about a case where we have by government is less than 60 percent. Some estimates students who have gone through or are about to go have it at 54 percentof the actual costs are covered by the through thejustice system, in this case a student who has government. Does that mean, Madam Speaker, iftheir been accused of murder, Madam Speaker, accused of 622 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April lO, 1996 murder, who is in a classroom, afraid that he will be mean they have to be foo lish and implement a program attacked by gang members and, of course, the other thatwe now know, having done some cost analysis, will students in the school and in the classroom are very cost taxpayers much more than having the programs as fearful and anxious about the relationship and what is they are. happening there. The Justice department has basically reneged on its responsibility, letting these students be in Thewinners , ofcourse, are theprivate schools, and we a school without the proper supports, without the proper still have to hear from the Minister of Education (Mrs. protection for this student, without the ability-this Mcintosh) asto theactual in creases. student is not prepared to learn. This student is there trying to get through the time before they get to court. Madam Speaker, people arevery upset all over the They do not belong in a classroom, or ifthey are going to province, here in the south when we have had the be in a classroom, then the Justice department should opportunity to visit rural Manitoba and southern provide the supports, so that the teachers are not left Manitoba Here in the city we visited many people. We dealing with a situation which is such a crisis. have beenon tours of the Interlake andthe North.

Madam Speaker, the budget has slashed public Hog producersare particularly upset. The Minister of schools, increased the amount of pressures on teachers Agriculture (Mr. Enns) is determined to push forward a and, at the same time, they take credit for increasing the program not supported by hog producers, a program amount for the reform, the blueprint, $1.7 million. Let whichthey, even today in the House, were here to say to the government tell Manitobans how much their the minister, , slow down, stop. Let us have provincial examination program willcost. Estimates fo r an opportunity to decide on this. I know, as a man of the English exam alone were over a million dollars for wisdom and a member of honour who has been in this thatone exam, anexam that was written twice and hadto House for many yearsandwho respects the wishes of his be produced in French in both cases and is going to be neighbours and the hog industry, he will give this some expanded. So if we look at the costs, for example, serious thought, and I hope will listen to the hog estimates have reached over $20 million fo r the testing producers ofManit oba. program. Ifthe government would be honest and open, I believe that they should come fo rward and give us a Ruralmuni cipalities were speaking to us the otherday realistic budget estimate of how much this program of about their cernscon about the downloading of the provincial examinations is going to cost Manitobans. maintenance of gravel roads. Any member here who has rural roots knows that the roads are in deplorable Not only that, Madam Speaker, the other losers in condition and maintenance of gravel roads is a maj or tetmsof this budget aretaxpaye rs. Local taxpayers have expenditure for many rural mw;ricipalities. That seen property tax increases directly related to the cuts downloading is a major concern to ruralmunici palities. from this government and no one else. How manyhospital rural beds willbe cut? How many In addition to that, this government is still looking at schools willclose because of boundary changes, not only school division boundary changes, a program that we just because of thedepopulation of rural Manitoba? You have seen through several studies which have indicated are goingto have an increased pressure because of school that it will not mean a cost saving. It will disrupt divisionbmmdary changes that this government seems to services, and it will not benefit students. I plead to this be bent on moving ahead with. We look forward to a government to use some common sense, to listen to what retraction on that position. the people say and abandon a foo lish program of school board changes. Change them where they are necessary, Madam Speaker, people are upset with the idea of changethem when divisions have seen the need, and you losing the Manitoba Telephone System. Thousands of do have several that are ready to amalgamate. I people have responded to petitions and phone calls in encourage the government to move forward in a more regard to the proposal to privatize. They say no. They logical plan. Because they have a Norrie Commission say havewe a systemthat wotks effectively, provides low andthey have spent well over a milliondollars does not rates and has been there when we needed it When we April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 623

needed to provide single line service to our fa rm in Madam Speaker, quickly, there are some winners in Poplarfield, it wasdone by Manitoba Telephone System, thisbudget, andI just wanted to articulate some of them. and it was done through the co-operation- Certainly, we have seen some friends of the Tory government reap huge benefits. For example, the private An Honourable Member: Under what government? home care providers, We Care, will be in line to reap huge profits off of the idea of privatizing Home Care. Ms. Mihychuk: The NDP in its election platform also Not only that, we are seeing certain PR contractors would have done it. We have to congratulate­ getting huge benefits. Barb Biggar, for example, is a big [inteijection] Who did it? The Manitoba Telephone winnerthis in budget. We also see thatMike Bessey and System did it. Would a private company take that risk? Faneuil arestable andare doing very well, thank you very I do not think so. That is the point, that the Crown much. Huge hog producers arein the winner's circle, and corporation under the will of this House will provide not only that, but in terms of education exam markers are services that are not deemed economic in the short term, also going to see a heyday. Not only that, there is one but are deemed as useful fo r the people of Manitoba. other sector that we know is doing very well, and that is That is why it does not make sense to privatize the the manufacturers ofVLTs. telephone system. Does it make sense given the * (1530) projections that we have been hearing that telecommunications and telephone companies are going On a sector that is close to me, themining sector, we to see larger profits than ever, at a time when we are have seenan increase of activity and revenues, and we all going to see increased incomes, this government is celebrate in that. Ascommodity prices increase, we are considering privatizing? It seems to be very shortsighted seeing boom times return as we had them in the NDP and not to the benefit of Manitobans. administration in the '87 to '89 area. But it is commodity prices thatare driving this boom, let us not be Manitoba Hydro, a corporation envied around the foo led We are in a competitive world community when world, a corporation that is the most effective and it comes to mining, that is true, and the government has productive corporation in North America, has gone eased and made some regulations better. Infa ct, I must through a massive structural change, Madam Speaker. congratulate the Minister of Mines (Mr. Praznik) fo r For what purpose? Under the pretence of deregulation recognizingdisparity the and the inequity of having a tax and competition, that there needs to be restructuring to on geophysical equipment. For example, geophysical handle it. The Dominion Bond Rating Service indicated equipment provides the exploration geologists or a thatthere is noother utility more prepared to handle those mining company with theability to see. So in fact they challenges than Manitoba Hydro. This government's have actually provided a grant or recognized, improved position to dealwith competition is toraise rates. Let me the vision of mining companies while at the same time explain tothem that the way you deal with competition is cutting the eye care services fo r regular Manitobans. to lower rates. [interjection] No. Manitoba Hydro is a That is a dichotomy; that is the hypocrisy. That is the success story. They have trouble in saying that, that a ridiculous fo cus of this budget. Crown corporation is a success story, and it needs to remain for the people of Manitoba. That is why we are Clearly, we are pleased that there is some clear vision concerned. provided to mining companies, and we celebrate that. However, there is a clear difference, and, Madam Why tamper with a corporation that is so strong, so Speaker, in the few minutes I have left, I just wanted to effective and providing a sustained, cheap service? The discuss some of the differences between mineral reason is clear. Ideology and political philosophy are exploration and oil exploration. I hadthe opportunity to driving this government. They would sell anything if raise this during Question Period. As we know, they could find a buyer, and they will sell it off fo r Manitoba hasa small,modest oil field in the Virden area, virtually nothing. It is as ifthey are paying off their an oil field that we have been working on and have fr iends as they are in their last leg. They are saying, developed fo r many years, and we all wish that it was adios, here have a little gift and have a piece of Hydro, much bigger. However, estimates have indicated a 10- have a piece ofMTS. year reserve. 624 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA April lO, 1996

The Northand parts of Manitoba have huge mineral for delivering a budget that will serve us well both now reserves that have never been explored. That is the and in the future. difference. What you are talking about is further development in Virden by paying off oil companies, Since being elected to represent the Morris rather than true exploration as is occurring in the far constituency in April of '95, I have come to truly north. appreciate the difficult decisions that government must make. A large part of what makes these decisions Madam Speaker, what are the real economic signs in difficult is the fact that they must take into account the Manitoba? They are quite disheartening: a 19 percent effect they willhave on future generations. increase in the use of food banks by children; twice as manypeople on welfare; housing starts only a thousand, (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the while during our mandate 6,000 to 7,000 per year; Chair) Statistics Canadaindicates over the last year Manitoba is the second lastto Newf oundland in terms of GDP growth It would be a relatively easy task to operate a in Canada; Workplace Safety and Health statistics government ifall the decisions that were made by that indicate a 1 7 percent increase in the number of injuries government were done so only with the thought of their reported; backlogged courts, particularly for young most immediate impact. In fact, up until recently many offenders; and an all-time low of consumer confidence. governments did operate under a short-term, self­ destructive mindset. Manitobans would be quick to recognizemany of the members opposite in belonging to This is a budget document that is a true reflection of such a former government. this government, which has contempt fo r the public, clearly a lack of honesty, and it shows the lack of We canonly assume that during the seven years from credibility that this government has. Arrogance is 1981 to 1988, while the former NDP government was seethingon that side of the House as theythink that they busy increasing Manitoban's debt by 424 percent, there are pushing forward on programs without any care to waslittle thoughtgiven tothe need fo r anadequate health what the real wishes of Manitobans are. care system in the '90s, an education system in the '90s or any reasonable social programs in this decade. Madam Speaker, we lookfo rward to challenging this government in Estimatesthe in future, and I thank you fo r Mr. Deputy Speaker, theshortsighted and irresponsible the time tocomment on the budget. spending habits of that former administration, an administration that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Madam Speaker, it is a Doer) proudly counts himself a member of, would have distinct pleasure for me to rise today and represent the led this province into a state of economic and social constituents of Morris on our government's 1996-97 disasterit had beenallowed to continue along its reckless budget. way. Fortunately, we can thethank people of Manitoba fo r recognizingthe problems associated with such a lack I guess while it must be a source of tremendous of planningand such a shortsighted vision. frustration fo r the members opposite to listen to our government deliver thebudget as fiscallyrespons ible and Residentsof theMorris constituency, and I believe this fo rward thinking as the one tabled last Tuesday, it is tohold truefor the majority of Manitobans, know thatas equally satisfying to hear for those of us elected to the individuals they must plan for their future and look responsibility of managingthe province's finances. fo rward. As such, they establish savings funds for such things as their education, fo r their retirement and fo r I would like to take this timeto thankall the members unforseen emergencies. They also realize, ifthey spend in the government benches for the contributions of time more thanthey earnfor long periods of time, their future and effort they gave to the creation of this budget, and I lifestyle willeventually be affected. Manitobans realized would like to pay special acknowledgement to my in 1988, after eight consecutive deficits, that the NDP colleague the provincial Finance minister (Mr. Stefanson) government did not understand finances as well as April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 625

Manitobans did, and they took action at the polls to * (1540) protect their future and the future of their children. The confidence that has been created in Manitoba's Mr. Deputy Speaker, my apologies. Our government government has filtered down through theeconomy and began laying the groundwork fo r economic confidence is providing Manitobans with new opportunities and and social stability in 1988. Other provinces have not prosperity. While that confidence may not show up on acted so quickly and are now facing very difficult the bottom line of any statement or as a line on a graph, decisions. This government, however, began cleaning up its reflection is at the heart of this budget. Mr. Deputy the financial mess left by the previous NDP Speaker, for the first time since 1971, Manitobans have administration nearly a decade ago, andnow, after many a budget that delivers back-to-back surpluses. As part of tough decisions, we have restored confidence in this government's long-range financial plan and as government, confidence in theeconomy and confidence in committed by The Balanced Budget, Debt Repayment Manitoba. Signs of this renewed confidence are all and Taxpayer Protection Act, this year's budgeted around this great province and canbe found in virtually surplus, along with the '95-96 surplus, willbe placed in every sector of the economy. the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. All future surpluses will be placed in this fund until it reaches the target level In 1995, Manitoba experienced the biggest decline in equalat to least 5 percent of operating fund expenditure. the unemployment rate in over three decades. In fact, The fund is an integral part of the government's planto 10,000 fe werManitobans were collectingunemployment retirethe accum ulated debtin 30 years or less. This fund, benefits at the beginning of this year than last. Mr. which is designed to be used when unforeseen events Deputy Speaker, that is 10,000 individuals who not only such as fire or flood take place, is part of the Filmon have a new income but also have a renewed confidence government's proactiverather thanreactive approach to and a renewed sense of worth. Young people also have money management. Members need not look any further a reason to be optimistic as our province now has the than at the accumulated snow we have outside our lowest unemployment rate in all of Canada. Legislature to see the possible need for such a fund this spring. Theseare not jobs thatwere createdby the government directly. NDP governments have long shown the futility While it seems that members across the House would of pouringmoney into an economy in thehope of creating prefer that government adopt a don't worry, be happy long-termjobs. By proving to business that Manitoba is approach to money management, we, along with most a placewhere theywould not continuallybe asked to pay Manitobans, prefer toplan fo r emergencies. Just as many higher taxes but proving to them that government could individuals andfam ilies put a percentage of their income control its own spending, we have created an away for such unplanned occurrences as cartroub le, so environment where businesses fe el confident and secure should a government be able to respond quicky to to invest their money and employ workers. In fa ct, last emergencieswithout having to sacrifice social programs, year, total investment in Manitoba increased by 12.5 spendingor increasing taxes. percent. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this was the highest increasein allof Canada, and second place was not even The type of see-what-tomorrow-brings approach to close. budgeting prescribed by members of the opposition is not While Manitoba can boast investment increases in good enough fo r the people of Manitoba or their manufacturing of 58 percent, increases in government Ourprovince has been able to climb out of commmrications and utilities of51 percent and increases the financial hole it found itself in in 1988 not by in wholesale andretail trade of 46 percent, these are not stmnbling alongfrom day to day but by doing long-range really the numbers that are important to Manitobans. planning and preparing. Those numbers arereflected in the 7 5 to 100 jobs created by Repap investment, the 500 jobs by Schneider's, the In the editorial page of the Winnipeg Free Press on 120 jobs by Standard Knitting and the 45 jobs created in Wednesday, April 3, therewas an articlethat contained my home constituency by Canadian Agra investment at the following: When the Tories first came to power in Ste. Agathe. 1988 they promised to reduce taxes, balance the books 626 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 10, 1996

andmake Manitoba more attractive for investing. They I would like to relate the fact to all members of this have largely lived up to those promises over the years. House which members of the opposition conveniently overlook. Since our government took office, 90 percent I have already outlined the success we have had in of the increase in our program spending has been attracting investment to this province, and the budget allocated to health, education and family services. Our itself is testament to our commitment to balancing the 1996-97 budget dedicates almost $3.5 billion to these books. This government's ability to deal with the priority programs. This is nearly $1 billion more than enormous debt left by the previous government, which was spent by the official opposition in '87. ran deficits that ranged around halfa billion dollars per year, while not increasing major taxes fo r nine I would like to take this opportunity to further express consecutive years is an accomplishment unmatched in om commitmentto the people of Manitoba. I am always Canada. amazedand surprised when I hear the NDP speak about

our record on health care, especially since we have In 1988, when this government was elected, consistently spent more in this area than they ever did. Manitobans made it clear that they were paying enough For example, in the 1987-88 fiscal year the NDP taxesand that go vernment needed to look at how it spent government spent 31.5 percent of their budget on health money in order to eliminate the deficit. By examining care. This isa sharp contrast to our latest budget. Inthe each department, each expenditure, Manitoba now has 1996-97 fiscal year, we are devoting 34 percent of our the lowest cost government in Canada. This government total budgetary expenditures to health care. This has absorbed the massive fed eral Liberal transfer cuts, represents34 centsout of every dollar. This expenditure hasinherited theNDP debt andhas mana ged both not by will go to those health-related areas which the people of asking Manitobans to pay more but by ensuringour own Manitoba, in consultation with this government, have efficiencies. deemed to beareas of high priority.

Thisbudget continuesto look fo r increased efficiencies Ourhealth care budget will be devoted to thePersonal with the establishment of seven new special operating CareHome Program. Funding support fo r this program agencies known as SOAs. The 15 operating agencies in will be increasedby $2.5 million fo r a total support of place represent 3 percent of the civil service and $65 $267.5 million, and, in home care, to deal with an million in business fo r government. These agencies increasing need for services, the Home Care budget is representpioneering a effort by our government to deliver increased by almost $8 million to $91 million. Since andfinance services. Their success hasresulted in other 1988, we have increased funding fo r bothpersonal care governmentsmodelling their operations after Manitoba's. homeshome and care. The Home Care budget hasmore than doubled while funding fo r personal care homes Manitobans asked governments to become more increasedby close to $1 00 million. efficient, andwe responded. We will continue to look fo r better ways of providing services. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Ifmy memory serves me correctly, the opposition was this government was elected last April fo r the third in government in 1988 and had every opportunity to consecutive time because Manitobans have fa ith in this undertake the same increased spending and health care government, its priorities and commitments . initiatives we have. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the record is clear on which party fee ls a greater responsibility to We were elected because the people of Manitoba do maintain the quality and standards of health care fo r not believe the rhetoric spouted by the opposition. Manitobans. This government is increasing support to During the election and ever since, the people of health care because we recognize the need to make an Manitoba have been inundated with erroneous investment in the present and future health of information by the opposition about this government's Manitobans. Money spent now on health care will mean commitment to health care, education and social services. increased health for Manitobans in the future. There The fa ct is that this budget continues our previous exists a need fo r certain health care services, andwe are practice of devoting the bulk of our expenditure to these maintaining our election commitment of targeting our three areas. financial resources to priority areas of need. April 10, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 627

Mr.Deputy Speaker, om budget maintains om ongoing resources of the Post-Secondary Initiatives Fund has commitment to priorities, social programs and the most been increasedfrom $2.5 million to $3.5 million. This vulnerable in om society, single parents with children increased funding will encomage universities and llllder theage ofsix, the elderly, the disabled and women colleges in the province to focus more on marketable in crisis shelters. This budget devotes $655 million to skillsand new itmovations which willbenefit the students support Manitobans in need. We have maintained om of Manitoba by better preparing them fo r a rapidly commitment to child daycare. Since '87-88, we have changing work environment. added over 3,000 subsidized spaces in Manitoba, and we have ensured that the number of children who received An exciting budget initiative is the merging of the subsidized care last year will not change. Anadditional Apprenticeship Program with Workforce 2000. The $2 million is being devoted to support adults with amalgamationof these two programs will only strengthen disabilities. Four million dollars more has been targeted thesetwo workp lace-based training initiatives. Training to support children in care. We are continuing om partnerships such as these are of enormous benefit to commitment to merge the provincial and municipal participants andto the provincial economy. To date, $20 welfare systems in the city of Winnipeg. We are million hasbeen leveraged fromindustry and other levels confident that this will make the administration process of government. for both affst and recipients more straightforward, will reduce the abuse of om social assistance programs and In 1995, Manitoba hadthe lowest youth employment will place increased emphasis on employment. Om rate in Canada. To build on this positive development, commitment to those most in needin Manitoba has not youth employment initiatives to provide training and changed since first coming to office and, despite what employment services for students and unemployed youth Manitobans have heard from the opposition, will not has beenincreased from $8.4 million in om latest budget, change in the future. a 9 percent increase fromthe '95-96 budget level.

This government recognizes the need to invest in the Mr. Deputy Speaker, so farmy comments have been futme education and training of ouryoung people. An restrictedto om budget commitments in the three areas of investment in education, like aninvestment in health and health, priority social services and education. But om social services, is an investment in the futme of this commitment does not stop there. We have also increased province. We envision an improved education system funding to many other areas of concern to Manitobans which prepares our children fo r the challenges they will and to this government. faceby giving them the skills, confidence and trainingto seek out and obtain meaningful employment Public safety is an issue which concerns each of us. opportunities. It is for these reasons we have allocated We recognize that public safety is integral to a healthy $1 billion to educationand skills development and active community, and we should all have the right to fee l safe in om homes, neighbomhoods and communities. "(1550) For this reason, since first coming to office, om Manitoba is the firstprovince in Canadato implement government has put into place many programs and a $12-million learning tax credit which will allow policies to deal with crime and criminal behaviom. Om Manitoba studentsto invest in their own education. This latest budget continues this ongoing commitment, a refundable tax credit covers 10 percent of all eligible commitment of $2 million in addedfunding to piace more tuition fees and will be administeredvia the income tax police officers on the streets of Winnipeg. An increased system. This credit is part ofom continuing effort to police presence will work with other reforms we have ensme that education remains affordable and accessible initiated to further reduce crime, violence and criminal to Manitobans. We have allocated an additional $1.7 activity. A commitment to initiate a victims assistance million for education renewal, bringing om total study in order to determine how best to meet the rights expenditmes in this area to $5.4 million. Part of om and needs of the victims of crime. A commitment to educational renewalinitiatives involves assisting teachers implement the mban sports camp program. Urban sports in the classroom, and that is why $750,000 is being camps will provide high-risk urban youth with positive directed fo r use in key curricula areas. The financial alternatives to youth gangs, violence and crime. 628 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 10, 1996

Rural communities, althoughnot experiencing the same and the ability to take an active and direct role in levels of crime as urban centres, must also be provided sustainingtheir economic future, has created many new with the same levels of service. It is fo r this reason that jobs in rural Manitoba by providing capital to small wehave extended 911 service to many rural communities business ventures. in Manitoba and have committed funding fo r an improved $3.6-million RCMP telecommunication Inthis budget, our commitment to rural municipalities system. We have also put into place additional is continued. They will receive an increase of over 6 protection against stalking by reducing the amount of percent in provincial municipal tax-sharing payments. access available to info rmation about individual Rural communities have an important and substantial Manitobans. role to play in the economy in Manitoba, and this role must be fo steredby government. As someone from rural Manitoba, I have first-hand knowledge of the vibrancy and the growth which is an As co-chairof a committeewhich travelled throughout integral aspect of many of our rural communities. This rural Manitoba to listen to the ideas of how we could govemment recognizesthat Manitob nual a is an essential further strengthen and diversify our rural economy, I am component of the provincial economy, and to strengthen well aware of the many worthy ideas and initiatives this vital area we have devoted additional financial Manitobans have. What we as a government have done resources tonual Manito ba. Funding for rural economic andwhat have we committed to doing with this budget is programs has increased to over $19 million, which is up give rmalManitobans the tools so that they cantake their 10 percent from '95-96. Specifically, the Manitoba ideas and tum them into activities that will strengthen Agricultural Credit Corporation will provide financing theircommuniti es in general and Manitoba in particular. programs to those in rural Manitoba in order to The rural economy has always contributed significantly encourage diversification in areas such as livestock and to the overall economic well-being of Manitoba, and all value-added products and processes. signs are that its contribution will grow even further.

Manitoba, along with the fed eral government, has The Conference Board of Canada suggests, all factors developed the Enhanced Crop Insurance Program to point to a buoyant agricultural sector in Manitoba fo r allow agricultural producers access to affordable, quality 1996. While there are certainly challenges to be met in crop insurance. Manitoba's program is the first of its this post-Crow era, we have been working with all the kindin Canada and will operate on a trial basis fo r three stakeholders to address these challenges and build on years. newopportuni ties. It is our government's demonstrated commitment to continue to create an environment in Oneof this govemment's most successful programs for which Manitoba's rural economy flourishes. rural Manitobans is the Rural Economic Development Initiative, known as REDI, which to date has helped to Mr. Deputy Speaker, Manitoba has come a long way create over 1,300 jobs in rural Manitoba and has since 1988, and I am certain that there are many who provided over $21 million to the ruraleconomy and has doubted we could achieve what we have in eight short generated more than $170 million in investment. We years. Undoubtedly, many of those doubters occupy the will continue this program which has contributed so benchesopposite. However, I truly believe that we have much to the quality of life in rural Manitoba. turned the comer in what has been verya long road and are now headed in theright direction. This has not been Anothersuccessful program we have initiated and will an easy process. It is a familiar refrain, but each of us becontinuing is the Grow Bonds Program. To date, this knowsthat it is much easier to pay withcredit than isit program has helped Manitobans raise over $7 million, to paydown that aedit We have, though, through tough and they have leveraged that into $21 million in new decisions and careful examination, come to the point capital investment and about 450 jobs. A recently where we will soon be paying off the credit that the announced program, the $12.5-million Community fo rmer NDP government ran up on· the backs of Works Loan Program, will also be continued. This Manitobans. It has beena difficult struggle to reach this program, which gives rural communities the opportunity stage, as each ofus knewit would be, but Manitobans April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 629

knowthat economic responsibility is not so much about government's goal is to reflect the will of the population today as it is about the future, their children's future, the that it serves, and, hopefully, the debate that is ensuing future of their social program and their services. This now in the province will serve those ends and serve to budget is much more than about government's desire to convince the government of the ramifications of its become responsible. It is about Manitobans' demand wrongheaded decision. that government become responsible. We have worked together toaccom plish what many thought we could not, Now, I wanted to spend some time on this document, and we will continue to work together to ensure that Mr. Deputy Speaker, because thewaythe government has Manitoba continues to grow, to prosper and to succeed. dealt with the issue and theway the government has dealt with the document is very illustrative of the policy Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Deputy Speaker, approaches and direction of this government. When the I welcome this opportunity of speaking during this document was released and it was indicated that the Budget Debate, and it is very tempting to use the limited government was going to privatize home care, the time available to talk about a lot of the government minister held a press conference and indicated, oh, yes, arithmetic and machinations and playing with numbers we are going to do this, and we are going to follow the thatoccmred has as a result of this budget. But, because dictates. We are going to set up a private Crown of the very serious implications of some of the corporation, and we are going to privatize the system government's recent policy decisions in the area of wholly, et cetera, as the document indicated because it health, I am choosing to use the bulk of my time to was approved by cabinet. This was the agreed policy, discuss issues arising out of some of the government's albeit no public discussion. very, very serious errorsthat they have made in the health care field. A fe w days later, afterthe government spin doctors got a hold of it and their press people got a hold of it, the Mr. Deputy Speaker, recently we had occasion to minister held a press conference, and all of a sudden the present to the public a document entitled Strategic direction had changed somewhat. This was going to be Redirection of Home Care, a Treasury Board an interim policy, they had worked around it, and they presentation. Now, this document was fo rwarded to our had developed a bit of a different policy. The minister attention anonymously. It has been a plan that hasbeen kept sayingand keeps saying andkeep s insisting that the long standing with the government concerning the NDP is fearmongering, and one of the ways the privatization of home care. When we had occasion to government attempts to stop debate on this issue and presentthis document, we were doing a public service to divert attention away from the real issue is to try to tum the people of Manitoba, because I suspect that the the issue back on any of us. So they say, oh, it is NDP government was not going to reveal its intentions during fe armongering. It is seniors fearmongering. It is this budget or during the course of the session but rather physically disabled fe armongering. It is patient would have waited, as they oftdo, until the break in order fearmongering. It is client fe armongering. When you get to implement this policy and not allow fo r any policy right down to it, the only people who are not supposedly discussion. fearmongering is the government themselves.

* (1600) I wantto return to theissue as stated in thisdocument. Now, let me state the very initiative. It says, quote: Sowe did theappropriate andproper thing by bringing Manitoba Health policy-divestiture of all service delivery this drasticpolicy change to the attention of the public to to nongovernment organizations. Now, what does that allowthem to have an opportunity to debate and discuss say? That says that nongovernment organizations are this issue prior to the government implementing it, going to deliver home care. Now, that is the government although it is fuirlyclear from government statements that policy. We do not know where that policy came from. they have no intention of listening to the public. The government has fo rwarded no documentation, no justification, no rationale for that decision, not one. It Nonetheless, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have always hasnot been tabled. It hasnot been presented. It has not insisted it still remains a democracy, and the been argued. There has not been one single document or 630 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 10, 1996

argument forwarded, and the member fo r River Heights userfees involved inthe new home careinitiative . There (Mr. Radcliffe) can get upand ifhe can-1 will give him willbe no user fee s involved. my time right now if he can show me documentation, because he knows there is none that will demonstrate it. Letme readfrom the document. Let me read what the

document says, the government Treasury Board So what can we conclude from that, Mr. Deputy document It says core services government funded, core

Speaker? We have a document that says, divestiture of services government/customer funded, noncore services all service delivery to nongovernment. What do we know customer funded. Membersopposite all jump on that and on this side of the House? We know that in 1994 We sayfine. Let me go throughthis very , very carefully. The Carecorporation made a presentation, andwhat did that document does not say core services government funded, presentation say? It is in writing. That presentation said, noncore services customer funded. I resent the word you should set up a government Crdinating body, and "customer," but I will use it because this government then you should privatize all the delivery of services. does.

Now, is it mere coincidence that that presentation by Core services. It does not say core services We Carein 1994in writing happens to identically reflect governmentnoncore fimded, customerfunded. There are the documentation in the government policy that was three lines. There are three definitions and the second presented? Is thatcoincidence? Ifit is not coincidence, definition says core servicesgovernment funded/customer thenpresent thego vermnentjustification and rationale fo r funded. Now what implication canwe draw from that? doing that, and they ot,cann Mr. Deputy Speaker. Thatcore services are going tobe funded not just by the government but by the customer, and how does the So what else canwe conclude? We canconclude that customerthe fund core service? They fund it with a user members opposite have been swayed not by rational fee. They do not fund it with, oh, they call it-their policy reasons but by other than health-related reasons, euphemisms for this fee-th ey call it contributions and other than factual reasons, because the lack of theycall it co-payer but the fact is it is a user fee . There justification, the lack of factual evidence offered by are userfees presentlyhealth in care. There are expanded members opposite leaves no other conclusion other than user fees in health care. that which we have reached. The member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe) cancomplain all that he wants, The very document upon which the policy has been but until he can get up and show us the reason and the madenot does just suggest but recommends thatthere be rationale fo r this policy, there is no other conclusion that user fe es in the implementation of the home care canbe reached. privatization plan. That is on top of what we know occursin the whole privatization model when the service I could be much worse, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I could isprivatized. Even if we take the minister's word at 100 be much worse in terms of allegations concerning percentthat all services that arepresently paid for will be relationships and concerning the fa ct that there are paid fo r. It isnoteworthy that the minister says presently friendships involved, the ministermentioned, has but I do paid fo r will be paid for. Does that mean that if not have todo that. I do not have to do that because there someone's condition deteriorates, the extra service will is such lack of justification fo r this program that the have to be paid fo r? Does that mean that new patients government policy collapses on that level. The member intothe systemwill have to pay additional costs fo r these fo r River Heights ought to talk to the Minister of Health services? It certainly implies that. I suggest from both andthe Premierto seewhere thepolicy and issues are fo r thisdocument andfrom the government experience in the this. past thatwill that in fact be the case, that we will see user fees pay homefor careand services the dilemmawith that Let me go furtherin this document. The Minister of is that a good portion of those user fee s are going to go Health insists and sends out-the associate Deputy right into the pockets of the private companies. Minister of Health sent out a letter to all home care clients. The Minister of Health sent out a letter to all Members opposite love to talkabout the competition. home care clients. The minister insists there will be no This document talksabout dividing the city of Winnipeg April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 63 1

up into fo ur regions and farming it out to theirprivate between caregivers and those requiring the care? That is friends andprivate companies. Thatis some competition. very crucial to not only the health but the healing of the These companies are not large enough at this point to individual involved, and this policy proposal, which is even take one-quarter of the services, but certainly they supported by no realistic analysis or anyjustification, are going to be tryingto be building up enough in order completely upsets that to take over that service, but it virtually is a licence to print money for these companies. Inaddi tion, Mr. Deputy Speaker, does the government not realize that the caregivers, those who deliver this * (1610) program, are most important? I mean, the most important link in this chain between government and We released today a document from the Centre for those requiring care is the caregivers, and something of Health Policy and Evaluation that said the dilemma of their well-being is important to this program as well. privatization in the United States is at 33 percent theof These people--and if any members opposite have costs; 33 cents on every dollar goes to administration, opportunity totalk to people who provide home care--are management, et cetera. There is no doubt that with dedicated, long-term people--! should say, mostly privatization we will see something in that range go women-who do anoutstanding job far beyond often the toward the services and the companies-33 cents on the demands. dollar. Money thatfo rmerlywent to workers and patients willnow be going into administration and management I have gone to homes andtalked to home care workers where thewoman has gone out, does not have to go back Now I ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that an to see her client because the client needs turning or appropriate use of health dollars when we have an something, does not charge for it but does it because they efficient management andadministrative system for home have developed a relationship. These people care and care presently? I want to just briefly touch upon the care deeply for their patients, and you are saying you do whole issue of reform ofhome care because there is no not value their work anymore. doubt, and we have said consistently on this side of the House, that there are changes that are necessary in the Members opposite say, well,they are just moving from home care system. There is ab solutely no doubt The a government organization to a private organization, but home care system was developed in the 1970s to deal whatare the realities of that, moving from a government with 1970s' needs. Unfortunately, it has not kept up organization to a private organization? We Care, the pace with the changing demographics and development government's favourite company, pays a homemaker and health care in the past fe w years. $6.60. Theycharge the government and the client $10.75 for thatservice . Thegov ernment service charges $10.75 Buta change and reformof thehome care system does andpays the caregiver $10.57. Inother words, We Care not mean destroying the present system in place and takes about $4.25 off the caregiver's salary and pockets completely replacing it with something else because that it. The government service provides that money to the is in effect what the government is proposing to do. I caregiver. They get to take it home. They get their think that is one of the reasons why there is such payment. When you say to these workers, we are going widespread public opposition to this change, this drastic to take that 40 percent away, what does it say to them? change by the government It is not just a question of dollars; it is a question of valuing the care and the respect that you have fo r human Inaddi tion, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have been struck by beings. the heartfelt anger and anguish of the patients who unanimously-the hundreds that I have talked to-are Mr. Deputy Speaker, the government proposal is against this decision and do not understand why the wrongon all counts. Thereis absolutely no justification government would upset completely the regime, the on any count for the government to be proceeding with administration, the people that provide them the care. this policy initiative. I am surprised that members Does the government not recognize that a longstanding opposite have not rebelled to their Minister of Health relationship often develops and usually does develop (Mr. McCrae) to indicate the wrongheadedness of this 632 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 10, 1996

decision. I would respect theMinister of Health much I am tempted to use the balance of my time on this more ifhe were to stand up in this Chamber and admit important issue, but there are several other issues that I that they are taking a step back from this program wish to discuss in the context of the budget and in the because thatis the right thingto do. context of my representation of Kildonan constituency. Over the past several months, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we Mr. Deputy Speaker, the right thingto do, and one of have been waging a fight in our end of the city to save the reasons we will not give up this fight and the SevenHospital. Oaks Now,the Minister of Health (Mr. caregivers willnot give up this fight andthe patients will McCrae) hasinsisted no finaldecision has been made as not give up this fight, is because it is the rightthing to towhether or not Seven Oaks Hospital willbe closed. I do. What the government is doing is wrong. Now, we have real difficulty knowing when a decision is made by canhave debates aboutkinds all of policy initiatives, and this government andwhen it is not made. Ifthe Deputy members opposite could say their policy is right and our Minister will recall, several months ago, there was a policy is wrong, but I do not think I have seen a more letter thatwe leaked thatsaid thatthe Ministerof Health illustratedexample of a wrong decision since I have been had given his approval to the elimination of physical elected to this Chamber than the decision made on the exams every ·five years fo r patients. Well, we provided privatization by the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae). I this document. The Minister of Health came back and donot think there isexample abetter of a case where the said, well, my approval was conditional. That was a ministerought to consult and change his mind before he conditional approval that hadbeenmade, so I assume the goes further on this initiative. Now, of course, we are decision hadnot been made. In fa ct, that is one of the facing a situation where those who were providing home very outstanding issuesthat we wish to discuss withthe carefe h they hadno choice but to make their voices heard government, particularly in the context of this budget and by havingstrike a vote andvoting in favour of the strike. the eliminationof eye examinations, as to whether or not Unfortunately, members opposite, the government, the the decision for physical examinations has been finally Minister of Health, will attempt to use this as approved. We think that is a wrong decision by this justification for their decision, andI think that is wrong. government. I think that is terribly wrong.

Thegovernment has an opportunity to avert the strike, Returning to the issue, the minister set up a series of save all the dislocation. They do not have to go about reviewthat teams recommended Seven Oaks Hospital be tryingput to in placecontingency plans . All they have to converted to a geriatric centre. Again, Mr. Deputy do is to stop theprivatization. This is not somethingthat Speaker, there are very fe w arguments, if any, fo r is going to create jobs. This is not something that is justification of this particular decision. In fa ct, we are going to-well, now there is a question of whether it is stilltrying figure to out how the government designteam going to save money or not. The Minister of Health said hasarrived at this decision. The community has arisen in it was not going to save money. The Premier (Mr. a manner and a fashion that has been unprecedented. I Filmon) said it was going to save $10 million. Heaven personallyreceived have over 2,000 letters. Members on knows where the right answer is on that, but this is not allsides ofthis Chamber-well, actually members on this the kind of initiative where you are talking about an side of this Chamber from both political parties have investment in a capitalproj ect orsomething like that, Mr. received thousands of responses. There have been Deputy Speaker. This is a job that hasto bedone that is literallythousands of people thathave attended rallies to a very difficult job. It is a very important job. The save our community hospital. [inteijection] What was Minister of Health ought to stand up, back off today, that? tomorrow, prevent the strike, admit the error. I know in thispolitical environment it is very difficult to admit the Bon. (Minister of Natural error, but I suggest that ifthe government were to back Resources): You are promoting it. That is why. offtoday,they would gainmore respect from Manitobans thanpr oceedingblindly onthis initiative with the ensuing Mr. Chomiak: The member for Steinbach (Mr. ramifications that this is going to have. I cannot state Driedger) says we are promoting it, that why.is That is strongly enough our desire and our hope that this one of the traps that members opposite fall into. government willlisten to what the public hasto say. Whenever there is a negative issue they attempt to state April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 633

that it is only being raised by theopposition. That is at have more community-based service. Now, members yom ownperil because you do not realize when you mask might argue that a hospital is not community based, but it by saying, oh, that is only the NDP, you do not realize a community hospital is far more of a community thatbehind us are hundreds ofthousands ofManitobans institution than, fo r example, a tertiary care fa cility. It who are more than disappointed with what you have serves those needs in a far different way than a tertiary done, particularly in health care. care fa cility, and it does meet those needs. There is no reason why you cannot take Seven Oaks Hospital and * (1620) expand its role in the community to make it an even more Mr. Deputy Speaker, literally thousands residentsof at integral partof the community and run more community­ om end of thecity have attended rallies and say keep om based activities out of that fa cility. community hospital open. Why is that so important? Seven Oaks Hospital is an integral part of the Now, the government seems to have lost sight of that community. We have seen a breakdown unprecedented particular aspect. They seem to have lost sight of the fa ct in terms of community and in terms of relationships and that community is important, that the hospital is in terms of structme. We have great difficulties in many important, and I think that again this is another example of om communities, and a hospital serves as a centre fo r of where the public has said to the government, ifyou the community. That is what Seven Oaks Hospital is. undertake this decision, you are wrong and you ought to People work there, people volunteer there, people take consider what the community has to say. You ought to their parents there, people die there. Not only is it consider what the public has to say prior, and ifyou do symbolic, but it is an integral part of the community. consider what the public hasto say, then you will keep There are more fa mily practitioners at Seven Oaks Seven Oaks Hospital functioning as a fully functional Hospital than any other hospital in the city of Winnipeg. acute care facility. Where arethey torelocate theirpractices to? The reason Mr. Deputy Speaker, there are many things that this that they are there at that end of the city is because they budget did not say in the area of health care. There are a are reflecting the needs of the community who want their number of decisions thathave been made or shortly will practitioners at Seven Oaks Hospital. bemade by this government that are not contained in the specifics of the budgetary document as they relate to The psychiatric service sees thousands peopleof each health, and they are very significant. They include the year-and I cannot tell you how many patients that I have whole issue ofremuneration of doctors. They include the talkedto from Seven OaksHospital who are distraught at issue of the physical exams that I referenced earlier and the prospect of moving their psychiatric service to whether or not the government has proceeded with its another fa cility. It is not, again, as simple as relocating conditional approval previously made to eliminate a factory. It is far more complex than that, Mr. Deputy physical exams on a regular basis. Speaker. Fmther, I mean, the arguments go on and on andon. Thisis the newestfa cility. It has got some of the I just want to stop here and say that that would be a fm est equipment in the city of Winnipeg and in the regressive step. The significance of physical exams-we province of Manitoba It serves a population base that is have spoken and I have spoken with many physicians and literally growing. It was built for a very good reason. It practitioners and others in the health care field and has served one of the quadrants of the city of Winnipeg. enough of them who have convinced us that this would be It ought tobe continued to serve a quadrantof the cityof a regressive step, that the natme of physical exams is Winnipeg. preventative and is helpful and goes beyond again just what is listed in the documents. So often so many The Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) has problems that might not come out in other forms of recommendations on hisdesk to closeit. The Minister of visitation to a doctor come out dming the comse of a Health also hasa 1992report thatwas supposed to be the physical exam and ought to be continued by this guide fo r so-called health reform in the province of government. Manitoba. That guide said the goal of health was to have services at community-based hospitals. This decision We do know what the ramifications of the decision in seems to fly completely in the opposite of the decision to Pharmacare is. The Pharmacare decision speaks to a 634 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 10, 1996

whole series of issues. Not only does it speak to the issue the wild-eyed, irresponsible comments that we hear of fairn ess, but it speaks strongly to the issue of comingfrom the opposition. Unfortunately, while it was competence of this department Healthof and indeed in a somewhat subdued address that we heard just fa ct the competence of this minister to continue as the previously, I thinkthere were a lot of issues that were Minister of Health after so many serious-[interjection] raised speaking of rhetoric and the words thatcame out Yes, it is very difficult. The botching is the one that around changes that are occurring in government today. comes to mind, but I would say fiascoes is another one. But the mismanagement by the Department of Health, I,frankly, ama little bit incredulous in termsof being Mr. Deputy Speaker, is stunning and has beenstunning able to appreciate how it is that someone has sat in this in its application. House for the past number of years, has been in opposition fo r a number of years, and has now The emergency doctors' strike and the ramifications demonstratedhe why will stayin opposition fo r a number were administrative and a management disaster. Ifyou of years, because he seems unable to demonstrate an look at the Pharmacare debacle, the lack of public understanding of the fa ct thatManitoba and every other consultation, the lack-you know, the minister used to province in this country are in a significantly changing stand up and brag about all of the people that he environment, and management of that changing consulted on Pharmacare changes. I note that he is not environmentis, in filet,the only waythat this government standing up on this particular change to talkabout all of or any other government is going to be able to achieve the people that he has consulted with prior. He used to success in terms of bringing future stability and success go through a long list, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but we did to the province and to our citizens. not hear that thistime. It is because it was done in secret andeven when they do it in secret, they still botched the * (1630) application and I have very serious doubts about the ability of this ministerto conduct and carry on health care Mr. DeputySpeaker, only I wantto put that in context, in the province of Manitoba, because I do not thinkthat thatI believe this budget is one that has demonstrated an theyhave competently managedhealth care and I do not opportunity fo r-the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) have any fa ith that they can competently manage health is yattering away over there. I amnot sure ifhe wanted care in the future. to contribute to my fa cts ' base or whether he wastrying drownme out [interjection] Hewants to help me. Okay, I thinkaside :fromthe policy differences thecompetence let us get at it. and the ability of this Minister of Health and this government todeliver health careis seriously in question The fact is that stability and opportunity fo r growth and I think ought to be considered. The Pharmacare would restore some confidence in the taxpayers and the debacle is only oneexample. citizens of this province has got to be one of the key objectives of a presentation of a budget, and it hasto be Mr. Deputy Speaker, I used to think that I could say one of the responsibilities. It has to be one of the key everything I wanted in 30 minutes. It is evident that I responsibilities ofany go vernment to obtain and maintain cannot, but I willsimply close on the note that I seriously the confidence of the public and to provide leadership so hopethat the government is listening to the public on the that they can take advantage of growth opportunities. home careissue andseriously consider both their rhetoric Mr. Deputy Speaker, one of thethings that bothers me and their policy decisions in the next several weeks themost is whencome I in to the Chamber andI listen to because of thevery serious effects the government policy stories of doom and gloom that are coming from across decision will have on the health and welfare of the way in the addresses that we have heard from their Manitobans. Thankyou very much. side about the budget. I think that we have to put in context what is happening in Manitoba and what is Bon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): happening in other jurisdictions across Canada, across Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure to rise to this continent and virtually around the world. address the budget and to put a couple of phrases on record insupport of the budget but also to rebut a few of (Madam Speaker in the Chair) April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 635

We do have a situation where Manitoba is now well of the responsibilities that government has to deal with, positioned to take advantage of what is an increasingly bringthat balance, bring a reasonable balance to the use large number of opportunities fo r growth and provide of resources as opposed to simply the use fo r personal stability and opportunity within ourjurisdiction. But the gain or for opportunity fo r individuals without looking ftrst thing that had to happen was that we had to bring responsibly to the future fo r the opportunity for other about some balance tothe books in this province, that we individuals and for nextthe generations to have an ability hadto show to the public that there was a responsibility to share in that wealth. being exercised, that the only solution fo r balancing the bookswas not to go into their back pocket every time an I thinkmember the fo r Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) knows expenditure or a problem arose but that we had to deal thatprobably better than most, being closer to a number responsibly with the priorities that are placed before this of the parks, being situated in one of the richest government, before any government frankly. agricultural areas of the province. He only too well will understand howit is that we have to balance the demand I know there are a couple of smiles across the way fo r prosperity and opportunity in jobs and the use of our when I refer to not raising taxes or going into the naturalreso urceswith making sure that they are there fo r pocketbooks of the public, but there is quite a difference future generations. [interjection] How can I tell when I between being able to have a camping site on the get there? When I come around the comer of Riding weekend and having a bed during the week in the Mountain into those beautiful productive plains around hospital. I mean that is not a comparison that this Dauphin, then I know I am in the heart of the Parkland, minister or anyone in this house would want to have to right next to Ste. Rose which is the cattle capital ofthe make a comparison to. Parldand, but the fa ct is thatwhile the member and I can have a fe w laughs back and fo rth, we collectively in this An Honourable Member: Talk about Pharmacare. House have a responsibility to demonstrate leadership so that we can provide opportunity fo r the citizens ofour Mr. Cummings: I will talk about Pharmacare briefly in own region, at the same time providing for our children a moment, and I think you will be quite interested in andour grandchildren to have the same opportunities. some of the fa cts perhaps, because that is one of the things that seems to be missing most in the Thatmeans that we have to have opportunities fo r the commwrication that is going out to the public from those harvesting ofour resources. At the same time, we have who areopposed to makingany chan ges. They do not let to make sure that we are marketing those resources, and the :fucts get in the wayof a good story, and that is exactly you can take a lesson from Louisiana-Paciftc probably what has been happening across the way. when it comes to marketing, because there is one of the opportunities that their management and this government Madam Speaker, when I talk about growth and ftnallyrecognized, that there was a resource out there in opportunity in this province, the fust thing that we have the quivering aspen, which was the fancy name fo r the to recognize is that we have a combination of one of the dirtyold poplar thatwe have been rooting out fo r the last more significant urbancentres with industrial opportunity number centmiesof of our farml ands, and we have taken and all of the opportunities that go with a concentrated the opportunityto tmnthat into a high-value product that population that is highly skilled and well educated, and, isvery saleable across the continent and probably around at thesame time, we have to recognize that we are heavily the world ifthe opportunity should arise. dependent as an economy on agriculture and natural resourcesto be able to produce the fuel that goes into the That is only a small demonstration that we can very engines of our economy. easily, I think,translate into our agricultural sector, where we have spent fa r too much time over the last 20 years When you refer to use of natural resources in this arguing about how the Crow rate should be managed, House, fa r too often, we have people rising up decrying arguing about how transportation subsidies should be the destruction of the future of the fo rests in this province managed, spending virtually years of our lives arguing or the elimination of opportunity fo r preservation fo r about what would be the best way to disperse what was future generations, and. again, I indicate that thatis one an institutionalized and ongoing subsidy for the grain 636 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April lO, 1996

industry in western Canada, and right under our very across the country and around the world, because it noses wasthe opportunity to use that product, to provide would be anything less than honest if the opposition value-added processing to that product and would not acknowledge thatgov this ernment by and large increase-[intetjection] has been very proactive but has been moderate in the approaches thatit has totaken the solution of some of the Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am experiencing deficit problems that we have beenfaced with. great difficulty hearing the honourable minister's remarks. You only toneed look atthe drastic solutions that have been required in other jurisdictions. It does not matter Mr. Cummings: I was actually having a little trouble what political stripe you are talking about because the hearing myselfthere for a minute, but I believe I heard bestdemonstration of those changes andthe requirements the member fo r Thompson (Mr. Ashton) use the word that go with them are right next door in Saskatchewan "arrogance" a couple of times. I amnot sure ifhe was where they are facing the same problems we are, but referring-[ interjection] Well, if we want to talk about probably even more so, because of their dependency on arrogance, I would suggest, Madam Speaker, one of the the grainmarkets their and lack of diversification in their most destructive fo rms of arrogance is fo r any of us to agricultural industrytheir and extreme dependency on the decidethat there isabsolutely no way but our wayto deal future of not agriculture as a whole but only one part of withan issue . The fact is, we have spent years and years the industry. of our lives debatingwhat is the future in the agricultural area, what is the future fo r this province . The An Honourable Member: Let us talk about implementation of policies to take advantage of the Saskatchewan. information that has been gathered over the last number of years isfinally starting to bear fruit because only in the Mr. Cummings: Interestingly enough, if you want to lastshort period of time have we seen, in the agricutural talk about Saskatchewan more, I do not suppose you field, people beginning to look diligently at some of the want me to raise the fact that they took the hospital value-added opportunities. For some of my urban designation off 50 buildings across rural Saskatchewan. colleagues and the members across the way, let me use Whenyou look across Manitoba, that isnot happening. one simple demonstration of how badly western Canada I heard a very lively discussion from theHealth critic a wasleft outof some of the opportunities a fe w years ago few minutes ago fo r the NDP talking about hospital in sales and value-added opportunity of our products. closuresand directions thathospitals canbe taken in this province. The problem I have is that while he will Whenwe received the transportation subsidy to move acknowledge thatchange isnecessary insome areas, he our graininto eastern Canadaand at the same time there does not want to look at change in the total picture of was an additional subsidy for feed grains going into how we can best deliver services to the public of this easternCanada so thatwe could turnaround and ship our province, whether it is inside the Perimeter or whether it cattle down there so theycould eat the grainthat we were isacross Manitoba rural or in the North. The change has subsidizing to ship there. That is about as simple an to be looked at in the larger approach as to how we can example as you can apply to what has been wrong with bestprovide serviceswithin the dollars that are available some of the economics and some of the programs that for us. I have to adamantly say that this government in have negatively affected western Canada and Manitoba in my view has done-and this budget reflects that we have particular. done as good a job as any administration in the country in tiyingto bring a reasoned and reasonable approach to * (1640) change inareas nowhere we longer have an abundance of dollars. But that leadsvery directly to a number of changes that are occurring within our government and within this An Honourable Member: Tell us about it. province. I thinkit would only be fair if I were to do a little bit of comparing about the actions that this Mr. Cummings: The member says, tell us about it. government has taken as compared to other jurisdictions Well, frankly, thatexactly is where I was leading. lf you April 10, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 637

were looking for changes that are easy to criticize, of to go to the tax base to add more money to provide that course, you can point to the changes in the number of better education. We have to work with the educational beds that are available in this province, but that does community to make sure that we have the highest mean that you deny or buryyour heads in the sand when standards and the best quality of education possible you have realized that with today's modern medicine we available fo r our youth. do not need the same number of beds that we had 10 years ago. I do not thinkthere is one member over there Let me sayvery clearly that there is no game by myself prepared to stand up and say that that is not a true or any of my colleagues to put ourselves in a position statement. However, I challenge them to bring forward where we are somehow seen to be in conflict with the some ideas. They can argue about the priorities ifthey educational community. No one deliberately sets out to like. They can argue abut the changes, but where are embark on that type of a debate, but the fact is that we their ideas? It is easyto be critical but provide your best need to get down to a debate that is realistic, that deals thoughts, because it is not just wisdom in one chair that with the fa cts of the issue. is going to provide the type of changes. It is going to take a collective effort on the part of all Manitobans. I wasa trusteelonger ago than I care to remember, but the veryissues we arediscussing today were discussed 15 I thinkthe job of government is to provide leadership years ago. They were discussed 20 years ago. The and direction and provide, in many cases, the opportunity problem is thatthey are a little bit more urgent today. As fo r the individuals within our society to succeed. Now, sooften happensour in own personal finances and in our what has that to do with modernization and changes in own families, the very same problem is now facing us as health care and education and social services? It hasan a government, as acommunity, as a province, and that is, enormous amount to do with it, frankly, because one of the economic reality of today is fo rcing us to make the issues that is most important to this government is decisions that we have been delaying for far too long. thatwe truly believe thatwe should not just be arguing as Thosedecisions arenot anyeasier today. In fa ct, they are we sometimes do in this House about who cares the most more difficult because they have been more and more when it comes totalking about health care, education and entrenched in the mindset of all of the participants, social services. including ourselves.

If it is only a matter of public relations to say that I I would acknowledge that, but the timehas come, not care more than you care because I want to only in health and in education and social services but in keep-[interjection] The member across the way argues allof the activities of government, to fa ce the realities of about whether ornot public relations is part of it. One of where we are and deal with them judiciously, deal with the most significant public relations and grandstanding them with the best interests of the public at heart, but not efforts that we see here every day in Question Period is only at heart but in fact. A few minutes ago I was the constant criticism of the initiatives that we are taking challenged to discuss the Pharmacare program and the without providing any alternate thoughts, without changes that have occurred there. Let me make it very providing any additional ideas. I suggest, and they are clear that, again, that is another change that not going to like it across the way, but I suggest they are Pharmacar�is thatthe second time I said that? Changes bereft of ideas in howthis could be done better. The only in Pharmacare are not an issue that this government thing theyknow how to do is to stand back and criticize. would actively want topursue, but when you look at what Reaction is fine, butlet us remember, the fa ct is that what you must provide, what you should provide and what is you are seeing today in a number of less necessary fo r you to provide, obviously health care changes-[interjection] That is quite a while ago. I cannot becomes a priority. But there again it is not a priority remember what happened back then. thatcan go muchfurther in terms of the dedicated dollars within our budget. We are well above a third of our MadamSpeak er, I thinkthe opposition is diverting me budget into health care. That seems to elicit a groan from from mytime. Would you like to add a minute or two to at leastone of my colleagues across the way, but ifhe has mytime? The fuct is the reality of dealing with education differentmathematics I would invite himto enlighten me costs is not a situation any longer where we can continue down the road. The fact is that, when it comes to 638 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 10, 1996

Pharmacare, thisprogram was one of the best in Canada, Doyou want toclose hospitals in parts of rural Manitoba and when wasit instigated it was a universal program. It whereit puts them twohours awayfrom health care? Is was instigated at a cost of about $10 million or a little thata reasonableoptioo? I donot think Isee any nods of

less, I believe. approval across the way. Doyou want to make it so that werestore beds instead of health care? I thinknot. The In 1988 when we came into government, it was long-tennapproach has to be that we are going to deliver growing at 15 percent year over year. Now, if there is more health care closer to the patient's home, in fact anybody that wants to tell me that we can maintain that deliver more health care right in the patient's home type of growth in any program year over year, then we because that isthemore cost-efficient way and, in many better have 10 percent growth in oureconomy or more. respects, I believe thevast ma jority of patients appreciate So thenwhat happens is that you have to look athow do and in fact receive better care and better recovery time you manage thecost of thatprogram, and as every other underthose circumstances. I know that if I were ever in jurisdiction has done, Manitoba looked at adaptation or that situation, those are certainly the results which I movement inthe deductibles and then a co-payment. But would expectif it were to affectme or one of my fa mily. the bottom line is that Pharmacare-and I have usedthis numerous times in my constituency as an example of But, MadamSpeaker, because we hear no advice from where government unexpectedly found itself with an across the way other thanjust do not do it, we have to uncontrollable programas far as growth was concerned look fo r the best way to deliver increased home care onits hands-control is not the issue so much asthe cost services to the public efficiently, at the time that they of that program growing far beyond our ability to need it, when they need it, of the type that they need. continue, to cut off other programs to make sure that it While the members across the way want to argue that continued to be funded atthe rate of which demand was they donot likeom changes, the fa ct is that there are very being put fo rward. fe w alternatives thatthey are bringing forward except, do not do it. One of the prime and most important criteria in revising a health and education and social services Madam Speaker, I want to move back tothe positive program is to make sure that the poor, and more side of what I thinkbeen has a budget that hasfo llowed importantly-and I think this is something that the a long-tennplan that gov this ernmenthas beenputting in members of the opposition despite their philosophical place and evolving over the last eight years. The fa ct is bent too often fo rget-the poor is not necessarily the thatwe have come througha numberof years in the late person on welfare. The working poor out there get '80s and early '90s when Manitoba's economy, along hammered far worse in this society than most people with every other economy across Canada, was not would care to admit. The first thing that you need to do performing nearly the way it did in the previous decade when you are looking at the cost of supporting and andwas not perf orming upto the expectations that any of reforming a program is to make sure that those who are ushad I lookat myself and my colleagues in agriculture the most vulnerable are not left at the mercy or the whim particularly, because not only did we come out of a of others insociety, and thatgov is ernment's job, to make number ofyears when production was not what it should sure that does not destroy reasonable expectations for havebeen, we came outof a number of years when prices those members of our society. were not what they should have been, and agriculture is a perfect example of a major industry that was not * (1650) contributing to the economy in the way that it normally did. In fa ct, it virtually became a drag on the economy So, when the members want to criticize Pharmacare, because of the economic situations that we fo und they want to criticize education, they want to criticize ourselves in. social services in the areas of support and what should be done, theonly thing thatwe have heard is thatwe should So I look to the budget speech and I look to the good do more. I would challenge them to add, beyond that news that is now beginning to become increasingly statement, where are you going to take the priorities obvious to those outside of the province and to those from? Where do you want to switch the priorities from? inside the province, because when you look at the April lO, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 639

confidence that we now see in our entrepreneurs, their and consideration of any budget of any government. willingness to invest, the fa ct that there has been Therefore, I would like to foc us on these interrelated potentially a billion dollars worth of investment principles, statement of ideas. annmmcedthis summer leads me to believe that we have now turned the comer in terms of where the provincial First, we should all recognize that in any enduring economy is going togo and,certainly, we have turned the society such asours, in allthe activities ofhwnanbeings, comer where the confidence of our citizens and the there always will be an underlying structure of shared confidence of investors both inside and outside of this moral values thatthey allaccep t, or else society itself will province has now risen, because now we have seen that not last. our value of exports are up into double digits, beyond * (1700) double digits, up over 20 percent, an increase in total investment that was the largest in Canada on a The second principle is that among these enduring, percentage basis. Manufacturing investment is up over shared values of stable societies, the highest and most 50 percent to a new record level. We have seen a real important value that they recognize is that the general, increase in manufacturing shipments, the largest in over common good of allmu st prevail over the good of one or 20 years. The value of mineral production rose over 20 a fe w. percent. Farm cashreceipts are in double-digit increases fo r the third consecutive year. The unemployment rate Thirdly, in maintaining this social community or has dropped, the largest drop frankly in the last three political society, all those who share in society's decades. Retail sales increased more than twice the resources and benefits must also accordingly and national average at the same time we see business proportionately share in the burden of preserving and bankruptcies at the lowest level in 15 years. promoting that particular society.

Madam Speaker, when we tie all of these things Let menow focus oneach of these principles. The first together, it becomes increasingly obvious that a plan and principle that I stated is that we must all recognize an anaggressive approach to dealing with the economy and underlying, sharedstructure ofmoral and spiritual values. with the responsibilities of government within the Despite our differences in ideologies and beliefs and confines of our available dollars has now brought opinions, we all will have to accept that there is such a Manitoba to a position where we are able to take shared system of values. Let me illustrate this. Any advantage of the economic climate out there. We are able social controversy or social issue, ifyou really analyze to take advantage of the investment opportunities and we and look at it it, really can be reduced into economic areable totake advantage of those opportunities at a time issues. Ifyou look closely at the economic issues you when otherjuris dictions in fact are still making some of really will say that it boils down to some ideological, the changes that this government imposed upon itself philosophical differences of a political nature. three, fo ur, five and six years ago. For example, when this Filmon government decided So, Madam Speaker, I suggest that the idea of thatpeople betweenthe ages of 19 and 64, their coverage nonconfidence of the public in a budget such as this is in eye examinations as an insured service under medicare totally wrong. Infa ct, I would suggest the reverse is the willbe stricken from that list so that all Manitobans now case and that the public does have significant confidence between the ages of 19 and 64 will have to pay an and it will in fa ct be increased by the figures and by the average of what is estimated to be $49 fo r a routine eye outlook that we see in this budget. examination, this is a health issue, a social issue but, then, ifyou look at it, it is really an economic issue of Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, in whether everybody or some can or cannot afford to pay response to the challenge of the last speaker, the such a medical examination fee . That economic issue is honourable Ministerof Environment (Mr. Cummings), in really an ideological issue of whether everyone, poor or this Budget Debate I would like to foc us on ideas, rich, should have that opportunity fo r eye examinations interrelated statement of ideas that he is looking for that for the general health and interest of all the people in we all should take into consideration in any discussion society. 640 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April lO, 1996

If we search out this underlying structure of moral righteousness thatidentical is with the greatest virtue that values, what do we find? One sociologist, Felice defines the highest good of the common life. This is Bataglia, stated that society asan original entitywhen it embodied in the universal maximthat everybody knows was conceived is a group of individuals who co-operate asthe golden rule: I dounto others what I want others to rather than compete for the fulfilment of the essential do untoand, me negatively stated, I do not do unto others goals of their mutual preservation, prosperity and what I do not want others to do unto me. perpetuation. So it is mutual. Everybody has an interest thatthey bepreserved, that they all prosper and that they If we fulfill that maxim, then we are promoting the all continue in the good life that they conceive fo r general, common good in the community and in themselves asa member of this society. promoting the general, common good we are promoting the interestof allthe selves that join together to fo rmthat The same set of individuals organized themselves into society. We, therefore, have practical, universal moral a political system so that in the words of the political criteriafor judgingwhether any particular act or decision philosopher Jean Jacques Rousseau every person enters of anyone acting on behalfof the community is wrongful into whatcalls he a social contract whereby he surrenders or righteous. This is the universal measurement. I say himself to the total community, but this is done by universal because even Confucius, in an unchristian everybody. Everybody enters into that social contract, country like China, hadstated a long time ago: You do but in sodoing he loses no right because everybody who notdo unto others whatyou donot want others to do unto relinquishes their rights regains the same right as a you. Thatwas the negative of what our Lord Jesus Christ collectivity. At once, then, the social contract created a had statedthat we love others as we love ourselves. mystical collective bodywe callthe society. The negation of a negation is a positive, so this is the Yes, it is intellectually created. The union of all the same thing stated otherwise. Therefore, those who are selves taken together to promote the general good of electecl like us, like political people, those who are all-[interjection] That is right. So when allthese selves elected to act on behalf of the community and those unite themselves together, they created a composite, a membersof the bureaucracy who are appointed toact on greater unity, a greater interest we call the collective, behalf of the community are bound by this universal common good. This is the highest good, which maxim to do and promote the highest common good of philosophers refer to asthe summum bonum, the highest everybody. good, because it inures to the benefit of everyone in the community or in the society. The British utilitarian philosopher, Jeremy Bent:ham, triedto pin down thiselusive concept of the highest good As the collective, common good it has an inherent by saying that it is the same asthe collective happiness primacy, an inherent priority over the good ofone or the for the greatest number, which ought to prevail at all good of the fe w. Anybody who violates that principle is times over the private interest of one or of the fe w. The subverting the very existence and continuation and happiness of the greatest number, that is a good fo rmula perpetuation of society. toremember. Unanimity is almost impossible to secure, the consent of everyone in the community. This Therefore, todo a righteous and goodact is to promote effectively linked the idea of the highest common good the general, common good. To do a wrongful, injurious with our conception of majoritarian democracy, the act to others is to destroy and subvert the general, rnajoritarian democratic decision making that inure fo r common good. According to Aristotle, the Greek the greatest good ofthe greatestnumber. philosopher, this is the very definition of justice. This is the very definition of socialjustice, that you do good to * (1710) others and avoid harming theothers in the community. The doing of the righteous act and the avoidance of the Now, in the context of this provincial budget that we injurious or wrongful act is therefore the very definition are debating now, can we illustrate whether this of the promotion of the good of all. Justice, therefore, government, now thathave we a criterion fo r judging-can becomes operational as the spiritual, collective wefind out whether thisgovernment inits policy-making April 10, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 641 decision is complying with this universal maximof the you need to? Becausethey are on fixedincome, how will greatest common good or not? Are they making they adjust themselves to this change of circumstances? decisions that promote the highest good of everyone or only the good of particular individuals or a particular Take the home care issue. This government prided group? Letus find out. The Pharmacare deductible that itself: Oh, we are increasing our funding for home care. thehonourable minister hasjust discussed, this is now to We are putting $8 million more into the Home Care be based on income rather than on age, such that it program. Is that not good? Why are we doing this? resulted in the increase in the cost of prescription drugs because it has awaytaken from the list of secured insured They are doing this in anticipation of privatizing the lists under medicare. Approximately how many people veryHome Careprogram on which 1hey are pouring some are affected? About 200,000 Manitobans will be affected money, $8 million additional to the Home Care program, adversely, because they have to spend more because they which will be privatized so that it will become now the are no longer insured for medicare in the insured list project in the hands of the fe w profit-seeking protected by the government. entrepreneurs which are promoting it at the expense of the sick. Now, in contrastto that, the same government hasjust given and added the veryfe w wealthy owners of mining They are making a business out of providing health companies sales exemptions from their exploration services, which is an essential public service for the equipment, whichis estimated to be about $100,000. On greatest benefit of all the citizens in this province, and, top of that they also gave to these few wealthy people, yet, they are cutting 30 percent of what normally should already wealthy in the community, $1 million additional go tothose people who are needing those services so that grant fo r exploration programs over and above the need they canpocket them as margins and profit because they of 200,000 seniors who are sick, disabled and affected are entrepreneurs. Is this not ideological prostitution of adversely by medicare. Now, tested by our criterion, is the promotion of the highest public good in this this right or wrong according to the standard of justice province? defmed as the highest good fo r the greatest number? Think about it. Those who are on fixed income, those They are merely channelling the taxpayers' dollars, $8 who are sick, those who are relying on medication fo r million more, into the Home Care program which their very survival and existence are ignored so that the tomorrow will go as profit to the private entrepreneurs. monies that normally should go to them go to the hands of the fe w who are already wealthy because theyown the Sincethese are private operators, they nolonger willbe mining company. Is this the promotion of the general subject to monitoring by thegov ernment. They canhire good of all or the highest good or the promotion of the whoever they wish, trained or not trained. They can fe w rich individuals? deploy1heir resources theway they like in order to make a margin. That is the promotion of the highest common I just heard that this government is about to spend good fo r the few entrepreneurs. It is good for all the $350,000 for a public relations propaganda contract on population and the sick and the disabled? That is not behalfof one individual, most talented, because she was good. It is wrong. the chief architect of the public relation campaign program in the last election. Now, to give $350,000 to I now foc us on the next principle. Whoever shares in one talented individual, no matter what her qualities the resources and benefits of society must also might be, at the expense and the cost of the hundreds of proportionately share in the bargain of maintaining and seniors, is this the promotion of the general public good promoting that society. This is common sense. Ifyou in the community? That is the promotion of one share in the benefit, you contribute to the bargain. individual over 200,000 seniors and other middle- and lower-class income people who have been paying the Societycreated government. Government, as the agent taxes andnow they are being channelled to the hands of of society, to promote the good of all, is given the power one. Are we supposed to say to the seniors, do not take to tax. Therefore, the government is obligated ifit is your medication anymore, or take it less frequently than necessaryto exercisethis authority given to it to raise the 642 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April lO, 1996

public money in proportion to the benefit that people are Whenthe wealthy legally resort to the rules of taxation receiving. Those who have more resources, as stewards whichthey themselves helped tofo rmulate, what we call of this Earth's resources, they are morally obligated to taxavoidance, sothat they contribute little or no taxes as contribute more so that those that have less will also some of thebig corporations are doing andthe big banks equallyenj oy akind of living thatgives them decency and are doing, according to the theologian by the name of dignity as fe llow human beings on this Earth. Meir Tamari, this is tantamount to theft. They are stealing. From thepooc recipients of social services, they Now, one of the richest persons I have read about, are stealing or they are stealing from the other middle­ industrialist-it is not one of you guys-was Andrew classtaxpayers who therefore mustbeara greater share of Carnegie. He once observed that the problem of our age the burden because of the people who are using tax is theproper administration of wealth so that the price of avoidance. brotherhoodand sisterhoodmay still bind the rich and the Therefore, we saythat, although theoretically we live in poor in harmonious relations. All he is saying is that I a democracy,we accepted that, theoreticallyyes , but look am just a stewardof the wealth that I share. Maybe I get closely. Look closely. This is a society of the fe w who a greaterof share the wealth, and I am a steward of it, but havetremendous influence in the formulation of tax laws I am duty bound to administer my wealth in such a and all other law, that they benefit themselves indirectly manner thatgive I andmaintain the bonds of brotherhood through theinstrumentality of society. This is oligarchy, between the rich and poor. where the rich and the powerful, economically and politically, determine the rules that benefit themselves Let me add that suchbinding togetherness of the rich and then take some of the power from the majority of and the poor is made possible where there is an people whodo not know any better. institutionalized agency of society, which is the government, to which fa ir and just taxation could be Letme say then that these three relatedprin ciples, the implemented so that fair and just distribution of benefits underlying, shared values we must continue to promote could be effected. and orsustain, else society itselfwill be at risk, one of the underlying, sharedvalues is thatthe good ofall should all Ifwe adhere to the philosophy of the opposite, saying the timebe the guiding lightover the good of one or the the least government thebetter, because theyjust interfere good ofsome . Any government that formulates budgets with so-called free economic activity-that is what they must remember that. will say-if we leave the sharing of wealth to private, Third, that society had created an institutionalized voluntary philanthropy alone, all that the poor people in agent, the government and the bureaucracy that is there, this world, in this province, in this country will get are inolder topromote socialjustice in the sense that all who the crumbs that fromfall the table of the rich. That is the share the resources of society must be made compulsory reason why government exists. That is the reason why to contribute to the maintenance of this joy of living in the government as the agent of society has the power of our civilized society peacefully and enjoying all the taxation, to take a portion of the wealth that is entrusted benefits andblessings of our advanced society. That is a to some members of society. Out of their skill, maybe burden that everybody must share. they are bright, intelligent, they have more balance and get the portion in the formof taxation and redistribute it We say that we have a mix kind of economy. We say tothose who need it the most, so that none will be below we have mixed economy. Yes, we do, but it is mixed, a the level of decency and dignity as human beings in this little bit tilted in favour of the capitalist system. It is world. ostensibly mixed, but we have to recognize the fa ct that it is primarily capitalistic. The forces of capitalism is * (1720) based on profit. It is based on-without a return on That justifies the right to tax. The right to tax exists investmentthey have no incentive to invest, but if you left only because it is coupled with themoral responsibility it unchecked there is a tendency among capitalists as to take care of the less able members of societywho are proponents of laissez-fa ire to abolish all competition. In less able to keep and maintain themselves. Outside of actual fa ct in our s

But a few-how many gas companies do you know? of capitalism, there you go, the suffering willbe so much How many gas companies? Shell, Imperial Oil, Petro that there will be no more security fo r everyone, and so Canada. You cannotname them on your hands. They set we witness the eruption of violence, of youth gangs and the price as an oligarchic community. all the other problems in our society because of the excesses of people who are in power. Thankyou. How many banks do you know? Five. Royal Bank, Bank of Montreal. You name them all. They control monetary and credit systems, so we say it is competitive. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Madam It is not so. It is an oligopolistic kind of economy. Speaker, is therea will to call it 5 :30? Therefore, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer unless there is this government that intervenes on behalf Madam Speaker: Is there a will of the House to call it of the general good of the greatest number of people. 5:30? Agreed? But ifthe same government is now under the control of the same group that controls economic and political The hour being 5:30 p.m., this House is adjourned and power or is submissive to the wishes of these architects stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Thursday). LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday , April lO, 1996

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Tabling of Reports

Presenting Petitions AnnualReport of the Public Schools Finance Board for year Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling ended June 30, 1995; Annual Wowchuk 599 Report of the Collective Agreement Dewar 600 Board fo r the School year 1994-95 Doer 600 Mcintosh 603 Struthers 600

Oral Questions Home Care Services C. Evans 599 Hog Industry Lamoureux 599 Doer; Filmon 603 Santos 599 Wowchuk; Filmon 604 Maloway 599 Gaudry; Filmon 606 Hickes 599 Struthers; Filmon 611 McGifford 599 Chomiak 599 Home CareProgram Friesen 599 Chomiak; McCrae 605 Mihychuk 599 Mackintosh 599 Teaching Profession Martindale 599 Friesen; Mcintosh 606 Sale 599 Reid 600 Enhancing Accountability Report Robinson 600 Friesen; Mcintosh 607 Barrett 600 Friesen; Mcintosh 612 L. Evans 600 Ashton 600 Manitoba Hydro Lathlin 600 Mihychuk; Praznik 607 Reading andRecei ving Petitions Barb Biggar Ashton; Findlay 608 Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling Wowchuk 600 Manitoba Telephone System C. Evans 601 Ashton; Findlay 608 Licensed Practical Nurses National Securities Commission Lamoureux 601 Sale; Ernst 609

Home Care Services Treaty Land Entitlements Mihychuk 601 Lathlin; Praznik 610 Friesen 601 Dewar 602 Pharmacare Maloway 602 Mackintosh; McCrae 611 ORDERS OF THE DAY Members' Statements

Manitoba Pork Wowchuk 612

Government's Economic Strategy Budget Debate Newman 612 (Fifth Day of Debate)

Seasonal Camping Permit Rates Ashton 613 Toews 615 Mihychuk 619 Working fo r Value Rural Task Force Pitura 624 Pitura 613 Chomiak 629 Immigrants Cummings 634 Hieke s 614 Santos 639