43rd PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION House of Commons Debates Official Report (Hansard)

Volume 150 No. 035 Tuesday, November 24, 2020

Speaker: The Honourable CONTENTS (Table of Contents appears at back of this issue.) 2285

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Tuesday, November 24, 2020

The House met at 10 a.m. the government has continually rejected these very reasonable amendments.

Amendments that the petition specifically references are for the Prayer 10-day reflection period. The petitioners want that left in place. They recognize that already the 10-day reflection period can be waived with the consent of the doctors involved.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS The petitioners highlight their concerns with respect to Bill C-7 ● (1005) and the need for amendments to protect vulnerable people, which is [Translation] what the committee has been hearing from experts and disability advocates. LABOUR CODE HUMAN RIGHTS Mrs. (Beauport—Limoilou, BQ) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-254, An Act to amend the Canada Labour Mr. (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, Code, the Official Languages Act and the Canada Business Corpo‐ CPC): Mr. Speaker, the second petition deals with the human rights rations Act. situation of Uighurs and other Turkic Muslims in China. It particu‐ larly calls for the government to go from words to actions. She said: Mr. Speaker, today, I have the honour to introduce a bill to amend the Canada Labour Code, the Official Languages Act Recognizing that words and statements are not enough, the peti‐ and the Canada Business Corporations Act so that federally regulat‐ tioners call on the government to use the Justice for Victims of Cor‐ ed businesses in respect the Charter of the French Lan‐ rupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law) and sanction guage and implement measures to promote the use of French as the those who are responsible for heinous crimes being committed main language at work. against the Uighur people.

This is a matter of respect for one of Canada's founding peoples HUMAN ORGAN TRAFFICKING and a way to promote one of the things that makes Quebec unique. Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, No one can deny that what makes Paris unique is the fact that peo‐ CPC): Mr. Speaker, the third petition is in support of Bill S-204, ple are welcomed there and able to work there in French. It only currently before the Senate. This petition would make it a criminal makes sense that such should also be the case in Quebec, the last offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ that has great bastion of the French language in North America. We should been harvested or trafficked without the consent of the person in‐ be proud of this language and do everything possible to positively volved. promote it every day. (Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed) I commend these three petitions to the consideration of the House. * * * [English] MEDICAL ASSISTANCE IN DYING PETITIONS Mr. (Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to rise on behalf of Canadians today MEDICAL ASSISTANCE IN DYING who are petitioning the government in regard to Bill C-7, which is Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, currently before the justice committee. CPC): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be presenting three petitions in the House today. The petitioners are concerned about the safeguards that would be removed from that legislation, including the mandatory 10-day re‐ The first petition deals with the government's bill, Bill C-7, flection period and the number of witnesses required for it to be which is currently before the justice committee. The petitioners are carried out. The removal of the second requirement of independent calling for amendments to the legislation that would leave in place witnesses would reduce the oversight of the procedure, leaving vul‐ reasonable safeguards. Those amendments have been proposed, but nerable persons at risk. 2286 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Routine Proceedings Therefore, the petitioners are asking the House of Commons to Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Mr. immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people re‐ Speaker, I have two petitions to table today. questing euthanasia and put additional measures in the bill, which is being proposed and amended at the justice committee. The first petition focuses on Bill C-7. The petitioners are urging ● (1010) the House of Commons to maintain the safeguards to protect people who request euthanasia. They call on the House of Commons and HANDGUNS the to maintain the 10-day reflection period Mr. (Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC): Mr. as well as the second independent witness. Speaker, I would like to present two petitions this morning. HUMANS RIGHTS The first petition calls upon the House of Commons to stop plans to implement a ban on handguns in Canada and instead focus on in‐ Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Mr. creasing punishment for violent gun criminals and urban gangs. Speaker, the second petition focuses on the persecution of Uighurs VETERANS AFFAIRS by the Communist Party in China. Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the second petition calls upon the House of Commons to The petitioners call upon the House of Commons to recognize amend the new veterans charter, the Canadian Forces Members and that Uighurs in China have been and are subject to genocide. They Veterans Re-establishment and Compensation Act and implement call on the Government of Canada to use the Magnitsky act to sanc‐ changes that would ensure injured veterans receive benefits equiva‐ tion those who are responsible for these crimes. lent to or greater than those granted prior to 2006. The Speaker: I would remind hon. members presenting petitions MEDICAL ASSISTANCE IN DYING in person today to bring their petitions to the table. Mrs. (Elgin—Middlesex—London, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I am proud to stand here on behalf of many Canadians Presenting petitions, the hon. member for Lethbridge. who are very concerned with Bill C-7 and the safeguards that would be removed in the legislation. It is very important for the MEDICAL ASSISTANCE IN DYING government to understand that the concerns, such as a 10-day wait‐ ing period as well as the number of witnesses who need to be there Ms. (Lethbridge, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I stand to designate this as medical assistance in dying, are really important here today on behalf of Canadians who are very concerned about for all Canadians. The petitioners say that we should ensure we do legislation that is currently before the justice committee, Bill C-7, our best to save those who are vulnerable and disabled and ensure which has to do with medical assistance in dying. that they understand their lives matter too.

HUMAN RIGHTS The legislation would unnecessarily expand the definition. It would take away the need for a 10-day reflection period and would Mr. (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC): Mr. also make it so that only one witness would need to be present Speaker, I have two petitions to present to the House today. when an individual requests euthanasia. This is of concern to a The first petitions is on the systematic persecution of Uighur growing population in Canada, particularly those who live with a Muslims in China. These Canadians call upon the Government of disability, because it puts them at risk and makes them vulnerable. Canada to formally recognize that Uighurs in China have been and are being subject to genocide and use the Justice for Victims of In this place, we have a responsibility to stand on behalf of the Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law) and sanction vulnerable. It is the government's primary responsibility to look af‐ those who are responsible for the heinous crimes being committed ter the safety and security of its citizens. Therefore, I call upon the against the Uighur people. government, along with those signed this petition, to do that.

SEX SELECTION * * * Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the second petition that I table today on behalf of more ● (1015) Canadians is on sex-selective abortion. The petitioners, the close 300 who have signed this petition, call upon Canada to pass the QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER Criminal Code prohibition against sex-selective abortion. Mr. (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ MEDICAL ASSISTANCE IN DYING dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ Mrs. Cathy McLeod (Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. CPC): Mr. Speaker, I am presenting a petition in which a number Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand. of people throughout the country are profoundly concerned about some of the safeguards that are being removed in the current itera‐ The Speaker: Is that agreed? tion of the legislation on medical assistance in dying, especially the disability community. Some hon. members: Agreed. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2287

Government Orders GOVERNMENT ORDERS the law and regulations that support these principles so that Canadi‐ ans can rest assured that their privacy will be protected. [English]

DIGITAL CHARTER IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 2020 As members will see, the principles of the digital charter are Hon. (Minister of Innovation, Science and In‐ firmly embedded in the legislation before us today. On top of this dustry, Lib.) moved that Bill C-11, An Act to enact the Consumer foundation sits three pillars: consumer control, responsible innova‐ Privacy Protection Act and the Personal Information and Data Pro‐ tion and a strong enforcement and oversight mechanism. tection Tribunal Act and to make consequential and related amend‐ ments to other Acts, be read the second time and referred to a com‐ mittee. Let me begin with outlining how Bill C-11 would give Canadi‐ ans more control and greater transparency in the manner in which He said: Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise today to companies handle their information. It would do this by introducing discuss Bill C-11, the digital charter implementation act, 2020. important rules for consent, the right to delete information, data As members know, data and digital transformation is completely mobility and algorithmic transparency. changing the way we access information, buy goods and services, connect with each other and live in our communities and cities. With regard to consent, Bill C-11 would enhance consumer con‐ This digital transformation has been accelerated by the pandemic, trol by requiring organizations to get meaningful consent from and we are seeing more Canadians moving their activities online. Canadians. This means individuals would get specific information Canadians are using more digital services and sharing more data in plain, simple language, not the 30-page legal document that no online than ever before. They want to know that their personal in‐ one reads. This, in turn, would allow individuals to make meaning‐ formation will be safe and that they are protected. ful choices about the use of their personal information. Recently, the Privacy Commissioner surveyed Canadians and found that the vast majority of Canadians, 92% of them, are con‐ ● (1020) cerned about the protection of their privacy, so this is an important issue to many Canadians. That is one of the reasons why last year I launched the digital charter, a set of 10 principles that lay down the To make consent more meaningful and move away from lengthy foundation that will allow us to build an innovative, digital econo‐ agreements that, as I said, no one reads, we are introducing a new my that is inclusive, people-centric and built on trust. exception to consent for the collection and use of information for [Translation] standard business activities that would be reasonably anticipated by individuals. The principles of Canada's digital charter give Canadians more control over their data while helping Canadian companies innovate, grow and create quality jobs for middle-class Canadians across the [Translation] country. [English] Here is an example in plain language. When a customer buys something from a company and gives that company their address, I would like to take this opportunity to remind members that the the company can give that address to a delivery company so the principles of the digital charter were very clear, and they focused customer can get the product they paid for. on control and consent. Canadians will have control over what data they are sharing and who is using their personal data and for what purposes, and will know that their privacy is protected. This is one [English] of the key principles we laid out in the digital charter. [Translation] Under the law, that company would need to be transparent about Transparency, portability and interoperability will enable Canadi‐ how it uses personal information so that consumers are made aware ans to easily manage access to their personal data and to transfer it of this and that the Office of the Privacy Commissioner can review without undue burden. these practices. [English] Data and digital for good is another principle that was laid out in The second element I want to talk about is the right to delete in‐ the digital charter. The Government of Canada will ensure the ethi‐ formation. Bill C-11 would allow Canadians to withdraw their con‐ cal use of data to create value, promote openness and improve the sent and demand that data be deleted. When individuals no longer lives of people at home and around the world. How can we harness want to do business with an organization, that organization must data to solve problems? stop using their information and must delete it permanently if it is asked by individuals. This would, for example, allow a Canadian to Another key element was strong enforcement and real account‐ demand that a social media site delete their profile. It is very sim‐ ability. There will be clear, meaningful penalties for violations of ple, but very powerful. 2288 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders The next area the bill highlights is data mobility. To improve [English] their control further, individuals would also have the right to direct and transfer their data and information from one organization or en‐ tity to another organization or entity in a very secure manner. Bill Our government believes that greater trust and certainty in the C-11 would do this by enabling regulations that establish frame‐ digital marketplace will empower small businesses and en‐ works for secure transfer and interoperability. This approach would trepreneurs to create news jobs and opportunities, expand their op‐ support innovation in areas like open banking, where a common erations and better access the global marketplace. technical approach could allow Canadians to take advantage of the consumer-directed financial marketplace in a more secure way. It is also important to note that the new legislation would help Another area the bill touches on, which was highlighted through small businesses prosper as well by ensuring that rules for data and extensive consultations, is algorithmic transparency. In the area of privacy are fair, clear, enforced and flexible enough to meet the consumer control, Bill C-11 would improve transparency around needs of smaller organizations. the use of automated decision-making systems, such as algorithms and AI technologies, which are becoming more pervasive in the digital economy. One area that does that is the codes of practice and certification systems. To enable responsible innovation, Bill C-11 would create a Under Bill C-11, organizations must be transparent that they are framework to recognize the use of codes of practice and certifica‐ using automated systems to make significant decisions or predic‐ tion systems. This would help organizations both comply with the tions about someone. It would also give individuals the right to an law and demonstrate their compliance, which, in turn, would sup‐ explanation of a prediction or decision made by these systems: port innovation and provide an important balance to a strengthened How is the data collected and how is the data used? enforcement regime. This is a brief summary of what is found in the first pillar of this legislation under more consumer control. Organizations would be able to apply to the Privacy Commis‐ The second pillar of Bill C-11 is enabling responsible innovation. sioner to approve a code of practice outlining how the act's general requirements apply in a particular sector or activity. This would [Translation] give businesses some certainty that if they are following the code they are in compliance. The digital economy creates significant opportunities for Canadi‐ an businesses. Digital activity accounts for 4.8% of Canada's GDP, and when it comes to research and development in this country, no I also want to highlight de-identified information. Bill C-11 other private sector industry outperforms Canada's information and would also clarify how organizations are to handle de-identified communications technology sector. personal information. This would enable an important mechanism for both privacy protection and innovative uses of data, which ● (1025) would benefit many small businesses. [English]

Investment and data has climbed as high as $40 billion. Across Lastly is data for good. In this area, it is important to note that the economy, Canadian companies' data is worth as much as all oth‐ under the second pillar of enabling responsible innovation, Bill er intangible assets, such as software, research and development, C-11 would recognize an exception to consent for socially benefi‐ and mineral exploration rights combined. Therefore, we can see the cial purposes in order to clearly allow organizations to support in‐ potential of data not only today, but going forward. novative data initiatives such as data trust, which is pursued by a range of public institutions, including hospitals, universities and li‐ Globally, we are seeing unprecedented growth in the technology braries. There is so much potential with data trust because it can en‐ sector, growth that is only going to pick up as artificial intelligence able us to unlock some of the opportunities that exist to solve some continues to grow and have a more meaningful impact in our lives. problems across our society. According to some estimates, AI is going to contribute an addition‐ al $13.7 trillion to the global economy by 2030. [Translation] The next element I want to talk about is strong enforcement. Per‐ haps more importantly, the proposal would significantly strengthen The government also understands the importance of giving com‐ the enforcement and oversight regime. This is critical. panies clear rules that enable them to innovate while still protecting Canadians' privacy. [Translation] Trust is the cornerstone of economic growth and innovation. When Canadians are assured that their data and privacy are safe and protected, it creates space for the kind of innovation that bene‐ With this proposal, we will have some of the toughest financial fits everyone. penalties in the world for violating our laws. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2289

Government Orders [English] forceable protections for personal information, along with clear rules for businesses to follow as they innovate and deliver new Currently, the Privacy Commissioner has little ability to enforce products and services. his recommendations on organizations that are non-compliant, oth‐ er than seeking a hearing by the federal court. Under Bill C-11 this would change. The legislation would introduce a strengthened pri‐ It is also important to note that the legislation would help protect vacy regime that would be overseen by a more powerful Privacy the privacy of Canadians, while strengthening the ability of Canadi‐ Commissioner, with appropriate checks and balances in place. an businesses to compete globally. This positions Canada to suc‐ ceed internationally. The Office of the Privacy Commissioner would have broad or‐ der-making power, including the power to force an organization to stop collecting or using information and delete it. If the Office of When PIPEDA was introduced in 2000, it was considered a the Privacy Commissioner found out that data was collected with‐ global leader among data protection laws. In 2002, the European out appropriate consent, he would have the ability to do this. Commission found that PIPEDA provided adequate protection rela‐ tive to EU law. The finding of adequacy gave us an international As well, the Privacy Commissioner would make sure there is edge by allowing us to have free flow of data between Canadian strong and meaningful consequences for organizations that do not and EU companies. comply with the law. The Privacy Commissioner would have the power to recommend administrative monetary penalties of up to $10 million, or 3% of global revenues, whichever is higher. The More recently in 2018, the EU brought into force its GDPR, the range of serious criminal offences would also be expanded, with a general data protection regulation. Since then, the EU has been re‐ new maximum fine of up to $25 million, or 5% of global revenues, viewing Canada's adequacy against the GDPR. They have made it whichever is higher. clear that we must reform our privacy regimes in order to maintain our advantage when it comes to this status. I believe the legislation ● (1030) would achieve GDPR adequacy while maintaining the made in The legislation would introduce the new personal information Canada approach. and data protection tribunal, which would review appeals of the commissioner's orders and levy penalties. Lastly, I want to conclude by mentioning stakeholder reactions. [Translation] This approach reflects years of public study, consultations and col‐ laboration. It builds upon the fundamental work of the House of This new administrative tribunal will help ensure procedural fair‐ Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy ness in how the commissioner applies the new and enhanced en‐ and Ethics, as well as important deliberations in the other place. forcement powers. It will provide individuals and organizations with easier access to justice through a less formal mechanism for appealing decisions. I can tell members the legislation has gained support from a wide [English] range of stakeholders. Goldy Hyder, the president and CEO of the Business Council of Canada, spoke positively about this. Michael This enforcement regime would recognize that early compliance Geist, who is well recognized in this area of expertise, said this is with the act remains critical and that is the key part. Early compli‐ “Canada's Biggest Privacy Overhaul in Decades”. OpenMedia calls ance will remain critical for the protection of Canadian privacy. We Bill C-11 “a big win for privacy in Canada.” need to build on the commissioner's existing abilities to secure ear‐ ly resolution through compliance agreements. We want to make ● (1035) sure that Canadian companies actually comply with the legislation. This new regime would see stronger collaboration between the [Translation] Privacy Commissioner, stakeholders and implicated institutions, in‐ cluding federal organizations. When the commissioner is develop‐ ing that guidance, it is important to have that level of collaboration. We know that Canadians will continue to use digital services that This will ensure there is a strong alignment between the law and require the use of their personal data, and we know there is no turn‐ how it is explained and enforced, and help avoid confusion for ing back. those trying to follow it. Again, this will provide further clarity. [English] To summarize, the third pillar of Bill C-11, strong enforcement and oversight, would introduce an escalating model that provides incentives for organizations to comply early. The focus is on com‐ I will conclude with this last remark. pliance. Strong penalties will exist if they do not follow through. There will be a new tribunal to ensure the process will be fair, transparent and accessible for businesses of all sizes. As the COVID-19 pandemic continues to increase our reliance on the digital economy, Bill C-11 will help Canadians embrace this The three pillars of Bill C-11 work together to provide what new world, knowing that their personal information is protected Canadians need to engage in the digital economy: strong and en‐ and safe. 2290 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders Mr. (Sturgeon River—Parkland, CPC): Madam to Information, Privacy and Ethics, which brought forward a num‐ Speaker, I saw from the stakeholders that big business certainly ber of these recommendations. It is essential that we move on this likes the bill, but I want to talk about small businesses, like insur‐ legislation. ance companies, for example. The minister talked about data porta‐ bility and open banking. Currently, in Canada the insurance arms of I have some concerns when I look at the legislation. One of the banking companies are not allowed to share that information with key concerns I have is that the government has opted to ignore the their mother company, the bank. This creates a competitive playing need to bring political parties and third-party political operators un‐ field for small and medium-sized insurance companies. der some form of privacy regime. I am sorry, but a pinkie swear I wonder if he can address the concerns of small and medium- from a party staffer that there is a privacy code does not cut it, not sized insurance companies that their business will be severely dis‐ after what we have seen with the Cambridge Analytica scandal and advantaged by the legislation and tell us what efforts the govern‐ the big data wars going on with political campaigns in the United ment will take to help those companies. States. We need to have political parties under some kind of regime. Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Speaker, as I highlighted in my remarks, the legislation is good for small businesses. It would pro‐ Is the government willing to put this under a regime if we bring vide them the ability to work with the Office of the Privacy Com‐ forward amendments? missioner to create codes of conduct to enable them to be compliant with the act. The tribunal process is also less expensive and onerous ● (1040) for small businesses, particularly when we compare it with the lengthy processes they may have had to pursue in the past in the courts. Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my hon. colleague for his active role in this area. I know that the ethics More importantly, I think the legislation gives control to Canadi‐ committee has done tremendous work in terms of providing recom‐ ans, particularly in the area of portability, as the member opposite mendations that have been incorporated into the legislation. highlighted, by enabling small businesses to be able to take advan‐ tage of the fact that Canadians can now move their personal data With regard to political parties, it is important to note, as the from one organization to another. That creates more competition member has indicated, that the legislation is focused on commercial and more choice, which will have a positive impact on small busi‐ activities. We are looking at not non-commercial activities but com‐ nesses. mercial activities, to strengthen the privacy in this area and to make [Translation] sure that Canadians have more control, not less control, and that Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-Hyacinthe— there is greater transparency, greater accountability and meaningful Bagot, BQ): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the hon. minis‐ fines that will make sure organizations comply with the law. That is ter. the object. Quebec is currently giving this careful consideration. Personal information belongs to individuals and is a provincial responsibility Again, the legislation is focused on commercial activities, not under the Constitution. The provinces are responsible for property non-commercial activities. and civil law. Quebec is in the process of modernizing its own leg‐ islation. Mr. (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.): Madam Speaker, Knowing that, how do you see the two pieces of legislation even‐ first of all, I want to congratulate my friend on being featured in tually harmonizing? this year's LinkedIn Top Voices profile. I offer congratulations on The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Carol Hughes): I would that. remind the hon. member that he is to address his questions and comments to the Chair and not directly to the minister. I would like to ask the minister about data mobility and how the The hon. minister. bill would assist Canadians and Canadian businesses. Data mobility is an issue that we have heard a great deal about over the years. Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for the question. He is right. Privacy is essential for all Canadians. Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my [English] hon. colleague for his friendship and support. I have sought his That is why we introduced this legislation, to make sure it is ade‐ counsel on numerous occasions to get his advice on issues he had quate with respect to the GDPR, but will also respect provincial heard about from his constituents. legislation. This law demonstrates national leadership in an area where it is important to have clear rules to protect Canadians, their He made it very clear that Canadians should have more control privacy and their data, and it will respect provincial jurisdiction. over their data and that Canadians should have greater privacy on‐ Mr. (Timmins—James Bay, NDP): Madam line. As he reminded me, particularly in this pandemic, more Cana‐ Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for introducing the bill dians are learning online, working online and accessing information and for recognizing the work of the Standing Committee on Access online. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2291

Government Orders One area we targeted and honed in on to provide greater control I understand that there are currently a lot of problems with data for Canadians was around data portability. This will enable, as the breaches. I hope that we can work together to come up with solu‐ member clearly highlighted, the ability for individuals to transfer tions for all Canadians. their data from one entity to another. This will create an enormous amount of activity online. It will empower Canadians, and it will create opportunities in many areas, including, as I mentioned, in the financial sector, with open banking for example. [English] Hon. (Haldimand—Norfolk, CPC): Madam Speaker, it is great to talk about data portability and privacy, but it does not matter if Canadians do not have access. Mr. Dane Lloyd (Sturgeon River—Parkland, CPC): Madam In the connect to innovate program, the government spent a lot of Speaker, today I am rising on Bill C-11, an act to implement a digi‐ money, but it did not spend a single penny in southwestern Ontario tal charter for government. This is an auspicious moment for to connect businesses, residences and Canadians with the Internet Canada, because we are well under way in the digital age, and the in order to give them proper service. This area represents 20% of need for clarity and concrete action to protect Canadians' privacy is Canada's economic output. In my own area of Norfolk County, over a paramount need. While it is critically important, we also have to 30% are still underserved. There is no indication of a carve-out in remember the need to protect small and medium-sized enterprises the new program for funding. However, there are parts built in for and to ensure that Canada can remain globally competitive as a ju‐ financing that would only benefit the big players. risdiction for technology, data and innovation. I am concerned by some of the trends we have seen over the past few years, with If the minister is serious about his commitment to small business, Canada falling behind our global competitors, and I am concerned will the new program be modified to support small business ISP that some parts of this legislation could put us behind. providers and to provide service to southwestern Ontario so that ev‐ eryone could enjoy the new freedoms and protections that the min‐ ister is speaking about today?

Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my I am also concerned that we are falling behind when it comes to hon. colleague for her very thoughtful question and for her advoca‐ security. It is great to talk about protecting Canadians' privacy and cy on the issue around connectivity. As a minister who served in putting in consent-based rules, but in an age of quantum decryption the previous Harper government, she knows personally very well and computers that can break 120-bit encryption, if our security the importance of broadband connectivity. cannot be protected, then all the consent laws and privacy protec‐ If we look at the digital charter, the first principle talks about ac‐ tions in the world are not going to mean much. cess. It is an important principle that we put forward in the digital charter, and it highlights the commitment that we recently made with regard to building on the work of the connect to innovate pro‐ gram through the universal broadband fund, as well as looking at I want to break down this bill into simple terms. They talk about low-earth orbit satellite technologies to provide that high-speed In‐ plain language in the bill, and so I am going to try to speak in as ternet connectivity for rural and remote communities. plain a language as I can, when dealing with a matter of this techni‐ cal nature. I want to talk about some of the challenges and, I will From our perspective, it is all about more competition, which grant the government, some of the opportunities that we foresee would provide more choice to Internet service providers, particular‐ with this legislation. I want to also thank and recognize the work of ly the smaller ones, which would then enable prices to go down and the ethics and privacy committee in the previous Parliament, under would provide options to many Canadians, including those living in the able chairmanship of my colleague from Prince George—Peace southwestern Ontario. River—Northern Rockies. Many of the recommendations we have ● (1045) seen in this legislation come from the committee's report, so I think that shows Canadians that committees really do matter in the [Translation] House, and that they can make a positive impact. Ms. (Thérèse-De Blainville, BQ): Madam Speaker, Bill C-11 will not protect personal data under the federal government's own jurisdiction. We saw what happened at the Canada Revenue Agency and how easy it is to steal a person's iden‐ As I said, one of my chief concerns with this bill is its impact on tity for all sorts of reasons. These are outdated tools when it comes small and medium-sized enterprises. It has been said for a number to identity and security. of years that data is the new oil. For many emerging enterprises, ac‐ cess to data and the ability to use this data will be the determining Why are there no rigorous standards set out for government factor in whether they are successful or not. I do not need to say, agencies? but I will, that small and medium-sized enterprises are the lifeblood Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for of our communities, and increasingly we are seeing how vulnerable the question. they are, especially during the pandemic. 2292 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders We have to consider the context of this legislation within the I asked the minister a question, which he really did not answer, economy and the economic structures that the Liberal government about data portability and the impact on small and medium-sized has created over the past five years. We have seen an unrelenting enterprises. The minister couches it in terms of consumers having attack on small and medium-sized enterprises, starting with hikes to the right to ask for their data to be moved from one organization to Canada pension plan premiums. These hikes will continue even this another. It seems like a really great thing, but I cannot think of too January, in the midst of a pandemic. When companies are closing many situations in which a regular Canadian would be the person their doors and laying off workers, the government is looking at in‐ initiating that conversation. However, I can see where a bank creasing costs even further for employers and employees. It is just would, for example, when dealing with its insurance arm. Many not acceptable. large Canadian banks also have insurance companies. The Liberals in the past accused business people of being tax cheats when they utilized exemptions under the tax code. They de‐ cided to take it one step further by hiking taxes and removing these exemptions for many family-owned businesses, including for a lot of businesses and farm families in my riding. With this legislation, There has been a fence put around these companies to ensure they are adding yet another layer of red tape that will force many they do not become too big and anti-competitive. Information can‐ onerous requirements on small businesses. I recognize that many of not currently be shared between insurance companies and banks these requirements will be very helpful when we are talking about owned by the same company, but through this legislation, the insur‐ large businesses, and they have the resources to maintain these pri‐ ance company just needs to provide a plain-language document vacy requirements. I found it interesting that the minister was talk‐ asking clients if they want their information to be shared with its ing about the right to delete oneself. On many social media plat‐ banking arm. With the massive amount of data that insurance com‐ forms that has been the case for a number of years, so it feels like panies and banks have on Canadians, we can see how quickly they with this legislation the government is trying to catch up to what could possibly use this as a predatory practice to increase, consoli‐ businesses are already largely doing. However, we see that small date and suck customers away from small and medium-sized insur‐ enterprises are increasingly reliant on technology and data. ance companies. ● (1050) In this legislation, there are a number of new requirements. There is a certification requirement and a requirement for businesses to designate somebody in their business to be the privacy watchdog. Businesses have to maintain databases and be ready to respond to When I drive through my riding of Sturgeon River—Parkland, I customer requests or investigations. When we talk about very small am proud to see about a dozen small and medium-sized insurance businesses, which could have only two or three staff or maybe a businesses for auto, home and life insurance. There are tens of sole proprietor, to add this new layer of red tape is really going to thousands of Canadians employed in this important industry, and create a lot of challenges for them. they are not all working for the big banks. I really am concerned that this legislation could make our marketplace much less compet‐ Ironically, it would actually benefit big businesses because when itive, so I hope the government considers that impact as well. small businesses have more red tape, they might decide to no longer stay in business. Therefore, we will see even more consoli‐ dation among the big players: the Amazons, the Walmarts and com‐ panies that are large collectors of personal data. Our thriving, inno‐ vative start-up economy will start to be strangled under this legisla‐ tion. My next point is about enforcement. I am really skeptical about I hope that when the government is considering amendments at the government's ability to deliver for Canadians. We see, in spam committee, it consults with small businesses. I encourage it to con‐ legislation and other legislation, that a lot of words are not being sult with the CFIB to look at the challenges small businesses are put into action and there are consequences for actions that are not going to face, and to try to come up with some sort of threshold to being followed through on. ensure that small businesses are not unduly burdened. I appreciate that this bill is largely targeted at major corporations and tech giants that use massive amounts of personal data for ev‐ eryday business. We know that these companies have the capacity to do better in protecting our privacy. I hope that this legislation can Similarly, this legislation packs a lot of firepower. It talks about spur further commitments to protect Canadians' privacy. However, threatening $10 million in fines, or up to 3% of global revenues. It as I said, it concerns me that these large corporations largely have is the toughest in the G7, as the government has said, but I wonder already implemented a lot of the things that the government is talk‐ what power the government really has to compel payment. When ing about. They have the human resources, legal departments and we talk about potential serial abusers of our private data, we are the endless ability to tap debt markets, bond markets and stock mar‐ talking about massive multinational corporations with billions in kets to finance these changes. Frankly, small businesses do not. revenues. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2293

Government Orders ● (1055) any statement of values, is really only as good as the resources and I wonder if we can anticipate similar challenges as those faced enforcement behind it, so I want to highlight a few of these pillars by France when it attempted to collect taxes on digital giants from and address some concerns that I have. the United States. These included a challenge at the World Trade Organization and retaliatory tariffs on French products. Pillar 1 talks about universal access: “All Canadians will have I wonder if the Liberals have given any thought to the potential equal opportunity to participate in the digital world and the neces‐ consequences of trying to collect large fines from these companies. sary tools to do so, including access, connectivity, literacy and Does the government anticipate that our trade competitors are go‐ skills.” As my colleague for Haldimand—Norfolk was saying, too ing to let these challenges go unanswered when we try to collect? many Canadians, the fourth coast as some would say, even in rela‐ Have the Liberals considered the consequences that this could have tively urban areas, say that we are far from accessing high-speed on the Canadian economy, and are they ready to be open about this and reliable broadband services. very real threat? I am not saying that this is not something they should pursue, but we need to know what the potential conse‐ ● (1100) quences are before moving too quickly on this. Canadian innovators are at the forefront of technological ad‐ For years, successive governments have pocketed billions and vancement, and I think that is something we can all be proud of. billions of dollars from spectrum auctions. They have been an‐ However, a concern that has been brought to my attention is the nouncing and reannouncing, and in some cases reannouncing a re‐ protection of proprietary algorithms by start-up tech companies that announcement, on enhanced rural broadband. The Liberals have rely on data. Some of the provisions in the bill would enforce algo‐ promised the universal broadband fund as their solution. They even rithmic transparency, which sounds great for consumers, but I see claimed that they topped it up by another $750 million a few weeks that it could be used by business competitors to expose sensitive, ago, but communities in my riding who recently applied for the uni‐ confidential and proprietary information. versal broadband fund were told that they did not qualify. Has the government considered the consequence of what these actions would do to our start-up companies that want to keep their I come from a fairly rural riding, and people were basically told algorithms proprietary and confidential? A company may be in a that, according to the data, the Internet in their communities is fast situation where it is looking for a buyout at a later date and needs to enough. That is not acceptable. They should try explaining that to build up to the point where it can really get the value it believes the farming families in Sturgeon or Parkland County, or try telling that company is worth, but if this algorithmic transparency could be to people living in Stony Plain, Gibbons and Morinville. used by its competitors to investigate the use of its algorithms, it could possibly be used to steal things that are patent-pending or as leverage in a negotiation for a buyout. I would like to see more We still have movie rental stores in my riding. I asked somebody stringent protections for our nascent technological sector, to prevent how these movie rental stores stay in business, and the fact is, the their algorithms from being exposed. Internet is so bad, the only way for people to watch movies is to go to their local movie store because they cannot access Netflix and all Next, in the bill, the minister sort of alluded to the exemption for these other great things. socially beneficial purposes. We need to drill down and explore the idea. The minister provided some examples: government, health care agencies and education. I do not think many Canadians could We are talking about a pandemic right now, and increasingly par‐ really object to these organizations being exempted, but one point ents are wanting to supplement their children's education at home. named organizations that exist to promote environmental protec‐ They cannot access their education. A principal of my local high tion. school, Onoway Junior/Senior High School, lives less than one mile away from the high school. The high school has high-speed We believe in strong environmental protection, but are we possi‐ Internet that is connected by the Alberta SuperNet, but less than a bly talking about environmental charities that may have a political mile away the principal cannot get any Internet services. arm or an agenda in an election? Are they going to be exempted to use Canadians' data in any way they see fit? What potential conse‐ quences could this have on keeping our elections free from foreign The government is saying their Internet is fast enough, and that influence or ensuring transparency in political communications? I they do not qualify for the universal broadband fund, but, if we do would really like to get a clearer idea of what the government not qualify, then I do not know who qualifies. This is unacceptable. means when it is talking about socially beneficial purposes, because It is time for the Liberals to put real funds behind real action to de‐ we are living in an age, as the member for Timmins—James Bay liver broadband access to Canadians in rural and remote areas. said, when there are data wars. If organizations are misappropriat‐ ing this data, using it to influence our elections and our democratic process and being provided an exemption, we really need to ex‐ Pillar two of the digital charter is safety and security. It reads, plore that. “Canadians will be able to rely on the integrity, authenticity and se‐ curity of the services they use and should feel safe online”. This is Next I want to talk about the 10 pillars of the digital charter that yet another great promise that the Liberals have failed to deliver the government has brought forward. We know that a charter, as upon. 2294 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders I remember over the summer, when scammers used Canadians' there is a need for government regulation to protect the interests of personal information on the Canada Revenue Agency website to our businesses and consumers. access CERB payments. These were not foreign actors we were talking about. These were private actors using information that they Could the member just provide his thoughts on whether the Con‐ could get their hands on to breach Canadians' accounts, and this servative Party will be voting in favour of recommending the legis‐ breach was so bad that it even forced the CRA and the Service lation to committee? Canada websites to shut down. Mr. Dane Lloyd: Madam Speaker, the hon. member sort of re‐ Thousands of Canadians who wanted to were unable to access minds me of the character of Cam Brady in the movie The Cam‐ the CERB, and all the useful services on those websites, because paign when he talks about small businesses being the backbone of the government has not put security as a priority. Security must be our economy. They are, but the Liberal government does not seem central to digital government and to our digital economy. I appreci‐ to recognize that the policies it has put in place have really under‐ ate that the government wanted to get those programs out quickly, mined small businesses. However, I will get to the question. but we are increasingly seeing the consequences of not building in security from the foundation up. There a necessity for regulation, but we need to recognize that one-size-fits-all regulations, which are mostly targeted at large cor‐ It was not just the CERB program that was hacked. In February, porations while still applying to small businesses, really put small news broke that the National Research Council systems were businesses at a significant disadvantage. We are not saying no to hacked, mainly the health research databases. This cyber-attack was regulation. We are saying that we need to put exemptions in, and caused by ransomware. The hackers used the ransomware to try to we need to look at what the consequences really are for small busi‐ extract payment from the government. Every year the National Re‐ nesses and address their concerns. search Council collects information on more than 25 million health care consumers across the U.S. and Canada. The National Research [Translation] Council was also hacked in 2017 by state actors. Mr. (Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, BQ): Madam This continues to be quite a substantial threat. Hospitals and oth‐ Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question. er information technology services are increasingly being targeted by these kinds of crimes. Since 2016, according to a cyber-threat This is for private businesses, and I understand that my colleague assessment, there have been 172 attacks on individual health care may have a problem with that. organizations with costs topping $160 million. Those are just the attacks that are known about. It causes one to wonder how many at‐ However, during the pandemic we have seen that the federal tacks have not even been discovered yet. government itself had problems verifying people's identity. In my riding, some people received the CERB under a name other than It gets worse. Despite the multiple data breaches, the protection their own. These people were on social assistance. They were not on critical infrastructure plan has not been updated in this country entitled to the CERB, received it anyway and will have to repay it since 2009, despite major technological advancements. I alluded when they file their income tax return. That is a serious problem. earlier to the Manhattan project of data decryption and quantum computing, which we are seeing out of countries like China. They I would like to know whether my hon. colleague thinks that we threaten to blow open all of our current encryption technologies. It could have applied the provisions of this bill to the federal govern‐ shows us that the plan is even more critical. ment itself.

● (1105) [English] Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ Mr. Dane Lloyd: Madam Speaker, I appreciate what the member er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam is saying. I have a story from my riding: A couple come to me who Speaker, I object to a number of the comments the member made at had used a third party tax service to apply for their CERB money. the beginning of his speech. He tried to give a false impression that The tax service charged them $300 per CERB application, which is the government has not been there for small businesses, which is absolutely absurd when someone can just go to the CRA website really quite inaccurate. and click a few buttons to access the money.

We can see the many ways that this government, virtually from It just goes to show that sometimes when the government con‐ day one back in 2015, has recognized the importance of small busi‐ structs something and does not think through all of the angles while nesses as the backbone of our economy through tax cuts. Today we trying to get the money out the door, there are people who will be continue to provide wage subsidies, rent subsidies and so forth dur‐ hurt by that legislation. When I raised that to the government, its ing this very difficult time. response was that it is not illegal. That is not acceptable.

Having said all of that, my question is with respect to the bill. We I think absolutely that the government needs to be held account‐ recognize that it is going to allow for additional regulation. The able. We always need to do better. We as the opposition are always member seems to be in opposition to the need for regulation. I am going to fight to make sure that the government does a better job not 100% clear whether the Conservative Party recognizes that for Canadians. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2295

Government Orders ● (1110) do Conservatives support this legislation ultimately going to second Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): reading, or in other words, will they support it going to committee? Madam Speaker, the member's comments are very enlightening. He talked a little bit about his concerns for small businesses and the red Mr. Dane Lloyd: Madam Speaker, I thank the member for giv‐ tape that would be associated with them. Can he discuss a little bit, ing me a second opportunity to finally answer his question. We do in detail, the provisions in particular that he thinks would put too have concerns about the bill, as I said. However, I think I can freely much of a burden on small businesses? speak for our caucus and say we will be supporting this going to Mr. Dane Lloyd: Madam Speaker, there is a provision in the bill committee. that says a small business has to designate a specific person respon‐ sible for maintaining these privacy databases. When we are talking about a small business with just a few employees, oftentimes a sole We will be looking at putting forward some common sense proprietor may be running the books, sales or the website, and they amendments to protect small businesses and ensure this is the best are now being told that they have to also be the designated privacy possible legislation. The fact is that it has been too many years CO of their company. That is adding red tape for a small business. since we have had an overhaul. A lot has changed in our society, For a big business, it is not that big, as it probably already has those and we do need to update this legislation. positions laid out. Small businesses trying to maintain those databases and having Mr. Glen Motz (Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, CPC): the ability to keep all the data they are collecting, so as to be ready Madam Speaker, I see in the legislation that there would be some to comply with requests from the consumer and Privacy Commis‐ exceptions to the consent of an individual's data and whether that sioner to hand over the data at any time, creates a ton of paperwork information would be available to them, or if it would be in the for small businesses. We need to look at a better way to do this to public interest. ensure that we can protect the privacy of Canadians, but not put too many onerous requirements on small businesses. Who would make that determination? Is the bill clear on that de‐ Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC): Madam termination and who would make it, and are there any concerns Speaker, my hon. friend mentioned the dynamics of rural Canada around that particular provision? and the challenges it faces with access to something as simple as the Internet. These increase the challenges of small and medium- sized enterprises, whether it is a farmer trying to access the most ● (1115) up-to-date equipment for their farm operation and the increasing data requirements surrounding that, the local insurance companies the member mentioned, or the many other small and medium-sized Mr. Dane Lloyd: Madam Speaker, that is a question we are go‐ businesses that exist across rural Canada. It is important that a rural ing to be fighting to get the answer to at committee. When we are lens is applied to something as important as this legislation. talking about public interest, it is not necessarily just for the gov‐ ernment to decide what that public interest is. I am wondering if my hon. friend would be able to provide fur‐ ther comments on the impact this would have on rural Canada. At the same time, we need to ensure this is not blown open to Mr. Dane Lloyd: Madam Speaker, it is already hard enough for any and all organizations that could be using and abusing this data rural Canadian business people to access the growing digital econo‐ in ways we cannot know. Obviously we need to put some parame‐ my, as I alluded to in my speech when I spoke about the lack of ac‐ ters around this and find a good balance. cess to high-speed Internet. The hon. member who asked the ques‐ tion is a farmer, and we know agriculture is undergoing a massive shift to data. [Translation] I do not think there is anything in this bill that would necessarily impact the farmers themselves, but when we are talking about rela‐ Ms. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau (Laurentides—Labelle, BQ): tions between fertilizer companies, suppliers and transportation lo‐ Madam Speaker, I am honoured to be the first in my party to speak, gistics, we could be talking about a number of new requirements. since this is a topic the Bloc Québécois has been looking at in re‐ The farmers I know just want to farm. They do not want to haggle sponse to a number of identity theft issues. over data and be purveyors of data, so yes, we have to consider those challenges as well. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the member did not I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge my colleagues answer the question regarding the Conservative Party's position on who have been with me from the beginning of the first session of the legislation. I understand the member, as being part of the offi‐ the 43rd Parliament. We immediately started looking into the mat‐ cial opposition, has concerns. I can appreciate that. ter of privacy breaches and fraud. The Standing Committee on In‐ dustry, Science and Technology unanimously agreed to take into I have two questions. One, do the Conservatives see amendments account the previous work done to study what action we should ur‐ coming forward at second reading? Second, and most importantly, gently take to prevent the kind of situation we are in now. 2296 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders I salute my colleagues on the Standing Committee on Access to I am also very happy with another part of this bill, which came Information, Privacy and Ethics, and I also want to point out that I up earlier, about consent to use and transfer our data. Businesses very much look forward to studying this bill in committee. We had and organizations that have our data must always have our consent. already unanimously adopted a motion to study privacy matters, That is crucial, and I am happy about it. and today a bill has been introduced. We spent a long time in com‐ mittee looking into conflicts of interest. I had 40 hours, during which it was difficult to vote on a motion in committee. Once again, I congratulate the government on giving the com‐ missioner the power to issue orders. That being said, prorogation did not do us any good. If Parlia‐ ment had not been prorogued, we would not be where we are today. We would already be at the forefront when it comes to protecting our people from fraud and identity theft. I know that this happened However, there is one thing I am very concerned about, and it to some people who work for the House of Commons. This is a has to do with organizations such as banks that are under federal ju‐ complex and troubling issue. As the Privacy Commissioner said, risdiction. I think that if there is one organization that should lead the accounts of no less than 30 million out of 37 million Canadians by example and demonstrate that it is protecting data and working were affected. to prevent fraud, it should be the government. I would like to tell everyone here and the people watching us at home that their personal information was used. We are talking The first time I read the bill, I did not see anything about the about a privacy breach. What happens when our personal informa‐ government fulfilling its obligations. My hon. colleague talked tion is not protected? Obviously, the first thing that comes to mind about this earlier. Many people in Laurentides—Labelle have told is the possibility of fraud. The way things stand, fraudsters have me they are worried about finding out at tax time that someone quite the opportunity to use the personal information of others. claimed CERB using their name. People have even told me they Madam Speaker, I am sorry. This is my first time without a writ‐ tested it. They applied, and their application was approved. These ten speech in front of me and I feel like I could keep talking for an are people who are receiving employment insurance benefits. hour. I would like to ask for the consent of the House to share my time with the member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot. There are also those who, upon opening their account, discov‐ The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Carol Hughes): This be‐ ered that they were victims of fraud. These people have followed ing a hybrid sitting of the House, for the sake of clarity, I will only up and filed a complaint. Unfortunately, it takes a long time for ask for those who are opposed to the request to express their dis‐ them to hear back, and some people never hear back. I feel that this agreement. Accordingly, all those opposed to what the hon. mem‐ bill should also include a requirement to support those who have ber is proposing, namely, sharing her time with the member for been victims of fraud and help them through the process. Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, will please say nay. The House has heard the terms of the motion. All those opposed to the motion will please say nay. Right now, it is about prevention and punishment. Let me explain prevention, which is very simple. Prevention is making sure all the There being no dissenting voice, I declare the motion carried. necessary elements are in place to validate a person's identity. ● (1120) Ms. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: Thank you, Madam Speaker. ● (1125) I provided a brief overview of this issue because safeguards have already been implemented in over 30 countries. Our friends in the European Union have been taking the bull by the horns since 2016, However, this bill does not propose a complete reform of the ID and I think we should follow their example. authentication processes for individuals through organizations or the government. I applaud the introduction of this bill. It was about time. I would also like to talk about a few things that I look forward to studying as soon as possible at the Standing Committee on Access to Infor‐ Several countries have already taken action and instituted two ID mation, Privacy and Ethics. authentication processes. The first involves confirming what the It was proposed that the commissioner be given additional pow‐ person knows. However, if an individual's personal information is ers. This bill proves that this proposal was taken into account. The known and their data are open, anyone can immediately commit commissioner will be able to impose major penalties. Currently, as fraud using their name. all those who grabbed the bull by the horns know full well, busi‐ nesses are responsible for protecting personal information or face penalties, which vary from one country to another. This bill intro‐ The second involves confirming what the person has using vari‐ duces a 3% penalty, which means businesses such as Facebook, a ous tools. Some apps already use text message authentication, for company worth several billions, could pay up to $10 million if they example. Sometimes the person has to place a call from their home. do not properly protect personal information. This is another important authentication process. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2297

Government Orders Several countries use other authentication processes based on ability to allow or deny the transfer of data to another company, even more personal information, such as voice recognition or fin‐ such as between two financial institutions; the ability to withdraw gerprints. Close attention will have to be paid to facial authentica‐ consent or request that data be deleted; transparency about the use tion to ensure that all rules are followed. of algorithms that use personal data; and stricter criteria for the use of de-identified data. This bill also gives real powers to Canada's I look forward to taking part in the committee deliberations. I Privacy Commissioner, sets out significant penalties for non-com‐ welcome this bill, but it needs to be amended properly. pliance, and creates the personal information and data protection [English] tribunal. All of that is great. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ Unfortunately, the problem is that the bill omits one extremely er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam important element, and that is protecting people's identity online to Speaker, just listening to the member's comments on the bill, I sus‐ prevent fraud due to identity theft, especially during financial trans‐ pect the Bloc will be supporting the legislation at least going to actions. We know that Europe has brought in a whole suite of regu‐ committee. It is important for us to recognize the role of the Priva‐ lations to force financial institutions to verify a person's identity be‐ cy Commissioner and that it has been incorporated to provide addi‐ fore authorizing a transaction. There is nothing like that in Canada, tional support. It will provide more confidence in cybersecurity and and this bill does not have anything of the kind either. show how important data is. Could the member provide a confirmation of the Bloc's position The federal government is not properly verifying individuals' on seeing the bill go to committee? Does the member have any‐ identity before authorizing electronic transactions. We know that thing else she would like to talk about in regard to the important the challenge is to prevent data from being stolen and used to com‐ role the Privacy Commissioner plays in general for Canadians and mit fraud. Having personal data stolen is unpleasant enough, so all small businesses? measures must be taken to ensure that the data are not then used for fraud. [Translation] Ms. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: Madam Speaker, I thank my col‐ The debate in Ottawa over the massive data breach at Desjardins league for his question. mainly revolved around social insurance numbers. We know that several people would like to change their social insurance numbers, The Bloc Québécois is obviously in favour of a bill to protect the but under the current system, they cannot do so unless they become fundamental rights of Quebeckers and Canadians. a victim of fraud resulting from identity theft. That said, it is important that several proposals be presented in committee. While we are at it, we will ensure that nothing is miss‐ In addition, the federal government has received a number of re‐ ing. That will surprise no one. Although the commissioner may be quests to redesign the social insurance card to make it harder to very pleased to hear that penalties can be imposed, he is also very counterfeit, similar to what Ottawa did with passports after the aware of what might be missing from this bill. September 11, 2001, attacks, at the request of the United States. With respect to personal information, we really have a lot of ground to cover quickly, because Canada is lagging behind in the These two requests are perfectly reasonable. The Bloc fully eyes of the international community. We will have to make quick agrees and is asking Ottawa to follow up. However, that alone will adjustments to protect our fundamental rights, as 30-plus other not stop fraud. countries around the world have done. Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-Hyacinthe— The best way to prevent identity theft is to make sure that the Bagot, BQ): Madam Speaker, since there are no other questions person who is making the transaction is indeed who they claim to and comments, I believe that shows that my colleague was very be. This goes without saying. There are three ways to verify a per‐ clear. I will try to be clear as well. The bar is high, but I will try to son's identity. meet it. First, a person can be identified based on what they know, name‐ Generally speaking, as my colleague said, this bill represents a ly personal information such as their name, address or social insur‐ step forward and addresses several of the Privacy Commissioner of ance number. However, as cases of identity theft are on the rise, it Canada's requests. Quebeckers were profoundly shocked by the is getting harder and harder to accurately identify someone. In other Desjardins data breach. It was a very significant event. However, it words, our private information is no longer private when everyone was not the only one. Similar incidents occurred in 2017 and 2018, can find out almost everything about us. Fraudsters can simply use and there have probably been dozens more that we are not aware this information to create a fake ID, and they are set. of. In fact, when a bank's data is stolen, the bank is required to in‐ form the police and the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, but it is not required to inform the public or even its customers. Second, a person can be identified based on what they have, such as their computer's IP address, which the institution can recognize We like this bill because it sets out a series of principles relating if the transaction is being conducted from the person's home, or to the collection and sharing of personal information by companies: their cell phone, to which the institution can send a secret code via free and informed consent for the collection and use of data; the text message. 2298 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders Third, a person can be identified based on who they are. The in‐ Since last spring, there have been numerous cases of identity stitution can use technologies that recognize a person's physical theft. These include Canada emergency response benefit claims characteristics, such as their voice, their facial features, through the made in other people’s names and tax refunds being redirected to use of facial recognition, their digital fingerprints, which are in‐ other accounts. Some people will not find out that they have been creasingly being used by cell phones, or their handwritten signa‐ victims of identity theft until they file their income tax returns. It ture. has not yet happened yet, but it will soon. In a few months, many people will discover that they have been victims of fraud. Right ● (1130) now, they have no idea. This is absurd, and it is unacceptable. Europe adopted regulations in 2016 requiring financial institu‐ tions to use at least two of these three ways to identify someone be‐ fore authorizing a transaction. Banks in Canada are under no such Again this fall, thousands of taxpayers lost access to their Ser‐ obligation. If they believe that the control mechanisms will cost vice Canada account, which prevented them from applying for em‐ more than the losses they are currently incurring in fraud, they are ployment insurance even though they lost their jobs because their better off doing nothing. The banks will not pay for controls that region was going back into the red zone. would be more costly than the fraud. That is simply profit-driven logic. Many members have probably had the experience of having a It is all well and good to introduce a bill on the management of store issue a credit card on the spot, based solely on the personal personal data by private companies. I want to stress that we agree information we provide. We just have to give our phone number, on this bill and that we will vote in favour of it. That part is settled. address, and so on, and that is all it takes. This practice really opens the door to fraud, and it has to stop. However, Ottawa needs to clean up its own backyard as soon as We believe that the banks must be forced to tackle fraud. That is possible and take immediate action to combat identity theft. We are the solution that we are advocating. We are going to propose possi‐ saying yes to regulating private businesses, but we are also saying ble approaches. As my colleague was saying, we are going to sup‐ yes to regulating Ottawa and the banking industry. port the bill, but we will be bringing forward amendments. We will have concrete, constructive and coherent proposals when the time comes to study the bill in detail. ● (1135) We will propose ways to combat identity theft, such as by draw‐ ing on the European regulations I was talking about, in order to force the banks to bring in robust processes to verify people’s iden‐ [English] tity before authorizing a financial transaction. We will also propose to increase fines in order to encourage banks to better protect their Mr. (Prince Albert, CPC): Madam Speaker, customers’ personal information. We will propose that banks be re‐ my colleague mentioned that the government should be looking to quired to submit a detailed report, as part of their annual reporting, include identity theft in the legislation. I agree with him that it on the number of identity thefts and the resulting losses. should be included, but this is the government that brought in the We will also propose a requirement to contact any person whose Phoenix pay system, and we know how much of a fiasco that was. identity has been fraudulently used within the organization, regard‐ less of whether an account was opened or not. As I said earlier, there is no such obligation in place and it must be brought in. There What would he propose the government do to prevent something is also an obligation to cover the costs paid by victims to recover like the Phoenix pay system if it was to bring this type of legisla‐ their identity. These costs must be covered by the banks, which are tion into its own house? rolling in a lot more money than individuals and most of their cus‐ tomers. [Translation] There also need to be anonymous tip lines for employees who are aware of unreported identity theft, as well as protection for whistleblowers. There is currently a void when it comes to whistle‐ Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: Madam Speaker, the blower protection, as in virtually all areas. I am getting a little off Phoenix pay system is indeed a fiasco, a complete disaster. I com‐ topic, but the House will have to deal with this issue as well. pletely agree with my colleague, who I want thank for his kind Ottawa also has to look in its own backyard. Beyond the banks, words about my speech. the same anti-fraud controls need to be imposed on the federal gov‐ ernment itself. Bill C-11 applies only to private businesses. It does not apply to the federal government. Currently, Ottawa’s online This is a big problem, but the bill that is before us deals with identity controls are clearly inadequate. Before authorizing a trans‐ identity theft. The Phoenix pay system is another issue, but we action, the government does not take all the necessary steps to en‐ completely agree that something needs to be done ASAP, as they sure that a claimant is who they say they are. say. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2299

Government Orders [English] I am wondering if the member has any comments on concerns he Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ might have regarding the bill and provincial jurisdiction. dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam [Translation] Speaker, it should be noted that it was actually the Conservative government that brought in the Phoenix payroll system. We did flip Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: Madam Speaker, I will the switch on it, but it was fairly well established under the previ‐ try to be brief, although I know that is not my strong suit. ous administration. The Government of Quebec is currently in the process of mod‐ Having said that, the member, as well as his colleague, made ref‐ ernizing its legislation on this. There is a stereotype about Quebec erence to individuals who collected the CERB but who should not and I believe it is founded: Quebec generally does very good work have been collecting the CERB. In hindsight, would the member and often, or in most cases, does a much better job than Ottawa. have any recommendations or suggestions for how the government could have done things differently to avoid that? Of course, we also think that the governments have to agree. We ● (1140) hope that this new legislation will not encroach on provincial juris‐ [Translation] dictions. Earlier I asked the hon. Minister of Industry that question Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: Madam Speaker, I thank and he said that would not be the case. the hon. parliamentary secretary for his question. Time will tell. I think that I answered that question in my speech. Stricter over‐ sight and monitoring mechanisms like the ones I suggested are the answer to that question. [English] We could also review the whole matter of the CERB. We warned Mr. (Windsor West, NDP): Madam Speaker, I am the government many times from the beginning about the monitor‐ pleased to participate from my office in this important debate on ing that should be done and the formula itself. I could talk about Canadian privacy. The bill would enact the consumer privacy pro‐ those mechanisms again, but I do not really have time. I made sug‐ tection act and the personal Information and data protection tri‐ gestions to that effect in my speech. bunal act. It would also make consequential amendments to other acts. We are debating a fairly complicated subject, but one that has Looking back, the government should have monitored this more been warranted for many years. closely in every respect. [English] The New Democrats have been calling for a modernization of Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): our privacy laws and our consumer protection laws for about a Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his inter‐ decade. Most recently, our efforts have resulted in a digital bill of vention today. It was very interesting. rights' discussion across Canada in which we have been at the fore‐ front and have pushed hard to have some of these rights discussed, Cybersecurity, of course, is a very important issue. As we know, not only in the public forum but also in the chambers of Parliament. in Canada there are too many victims of cybercrime each year. However, I feel it is not a problem that a privacy law would solve. We have witnessed the world move on. We have seen the Privacy I am wondering if the member could speak a bit about why he is Commissioner identify Canada as backwater when it comes to pro‐ bringing forward a criminal law issue that would put more burden tecting privacy and the capabilities of the modern world. With on Quebec and some of the other provincial jurisdictions at this COVID-19, we see further online activity among Canadians and time. I would like a few comments on that. further vulnerabilities for not only individuals but for our families, schools, businesses and even Parliament. [Translation] Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: Madam Speaker, if I un‐ The New Democrats have a different position from other politi‐ derstood my colleague's question about criminal law, the bill in this cal parties. We believe that people's human rights are connected to current form suggests penalties for companies that break the law. their digital rights. People's online presence and the digital footprint That would involve criminal law. they leave in the wake of the business they have to do is just as im‐ portant as their physically enshrined rights as a human being. If I understood the question properly, that is the response I have for my colleague. When we look at what is taking place, even with COVID, and [English] the ability of people to participate online, we have seen the failings Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC): Madam of two decades of Liberals and Conservatives to connect Canadi‐ Speaker, I can always count on my Bloc colleagues to explore the ans, all the way from Maxime Bernier's program, launched as a relationship between the federal government and the provincial Conservative minister, to most recently where we are struggling governments. and scrambling to get Canadians connected. 2300 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders One of the other things the New Democrats talk about is the af‐ tors in this environment that are doing harm to Canadians and other fordability of participating in this democracy and not only with re‐ businesses are not rewarded. spect to one's participation on a regular social basis. As govern‐ ments have moved more and more services away from brick and mortar to online, we have seen the exposure of Canadian privacy. We have seen that even within government resources, everything from social insurance numbers to other types of breaches that have One thing I am most proud of accomplishing as a member of taken place. We have seen this in the private sector as well. Parliament was ending the tax deductibility of corporate fines and penalties. That was about 15 years ago. In the past, if a business Canada has often lagged in the private sector, not only in over‐ was caught doing something illegal, it was able to write off part of sight but also in the punishment of those who take advantage of the government fine as a business-related expense. I was able to people in the new digital age. In our digital bill of rights, which we champion a change to that. presented more than two years ago, we talked about not only per‐ sonal data being protected, but also how people were being manip‐ ulated through the services provided online. For years and years our philosophy has been net neutrality. I will highlight a few new prob‐ Businesses that were doing illegal activity and influencing com‐ lems with the bill which could derail that type of philosophy and petition were using it as a loss leader. They would essentially get could stream Canadians to more vulnerabilities. millions of dollars in fines and penalties, everything from drug There are all kinds of examples of how Canadians have been companies to those getting environmental fines and penalties, and abused. Whether it be Yahoo, Ticketmaster, Marriott or Equifax, they would apply for that money back at tax time. It was a way for the list goes on and on. Most recently, a heightened example of this, them to undercut the competition that was doing the right thing. which created a lot of attention across the world, was Facebook and That is what I am concerned about with the tribunal. It would have the outright manipulation of people's personal data. People were the capability to influence market stability to some degree with re‐ being used as pawns without even knowing what their rights were gard to penalties and fines for the bad actors. or being protected from that. Again, Canada's laws do not allow our Privacy Commissioner to come down hard on some of these giants. Governments in the past have been too close with the web giants and have not allowed If it does not work right, if it is not seen as credible and if it does Canadians to have the proper recourse when data breaches have not flow the way it should, it can be an encouragement for some of taken place. those committing the breaches to be sloppy with personal informa‐ tion, disrespectful and also manipulative in taking information from ● (1145) Canadians, steering them to different purchases and activities, ex‐ The personal information and data production tribunal act being posing them and then beating some of the competition. For some proposed by the government would create a number of potential young entrepreneurs who have to go up against some of these es‐ false promises for accountability. It has a low threshold of involve‐ tablished giants, it is very difficult for them to get a toehold. ment of those who would be appointed to the tribunal. First, we have to get past the notion that these types of political appointments will be free and clear of all political and business- type leverages to select the tribunal. Second, we have to assume the A number of factors are in place, even in our general market tribunal can be fair, quick and just in its cases. Third, baked-in economy, for young people and entrepreneurs to get busy and to problems with regard to the role of the tribunal create some con‐ compete. One most recently was in the retail sector. Businesses are cerns. The first is that the tribunal could overturn the Privacy Com‐ being charged extra to get floor space in the real world. Amazon missioner in many respects and it would go to a judicial process, and other players have also used manipulative practices to steer which could take years and years to settle cases that may no longer consumers to particular products and services from preferred cus‐ be relevant to Canadians. tomers. That defeats our philosophy of net neutrality. It could also direct people and their families to making purchases or viewing ac‐ There is also a low threshold for the inclusion of some of the ap‐ tivity with the time they have into different market conditions as pointments. There is no requirement for a Superior Court judge and opposed to exploring in a free and open Internet society. only one judge is allowed in maybe a one-to-three-member panel or a one-to-six-member panel. These things need to be fixed. Something I want to further explore are more powers for the Pri‐ vacy Commissioner. The Privacy Commissioner has been very Another thing is that Canadian federal political parties are ex‐ clear in asking for more resources and supports over the last num‐ empt from oversight. We do not understand why the Liberals would ber of years to deal with privacy breaches that have occurred and allow this to take place. It should be clear and proper that their data also to bring in more accountability. It is in our business interests, and personal information be open and accountable in political par‐ not only our interests as individuals, families and all of the institu‐ ties as well. We will be looking at amendments to this activity be‐ tions but in business interests, to have a clear process so the bad ac‐ cause we strongly believe they should be accountable. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2301

Government Orders To bring faith and accountability to our democracy requires I previously mentioned Maxime Bernier, with the Conservatives, transparency. We have seen the sensationalism that has taken place and most recently the Liberals. Several plans have emerged that are in political advertising in the last number of campaigns and the more a hodgepodge of applications. It is one program after another favouritism that has been seen online. We have also seen the giant that is sought out. They are also providing massive subsidizations data assembly that has taken place which can manipulate voting for those markets, which costs billions of dollars. Even the CRTC and steer people to different discussion points. has a fund.

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The personal privacy information collected by political parties I can list a series of them, but the point is that if we are going should also be clear. This way there will be more faith in the infor‐ through all this trouble and investment to create a society space for mation that political parties get. More important, our democracy our digital world and economy and we are heavily investing in this, will be strengthened by privacy protection, not weakened or ex‐ then we need to do it right, especially with a geography like empted with regard to the model being presented by the govern‐ Canada, which is so large. This can be a challenge, but given our ment right now. population size and the fact that we have dense populations along the border and other places, we can turn this into an advantage for We also want to be more technical and continue to have commer‐ business investment as well. cial activity defined under PIPEDA. This is more related to the business section aspect for fair and open transparency.

We want to deal with a particular issue in regard to algorithmic The New Democrats believe this is part of our human right with transparency. Algorithms can help direct purchasing and activity respect to how people are treated online. This includes accountabil‐ and can also manipulate someone. It will just get stronger because ity from companies with regard to cyber-bullying, privacy protec‐ artificial intelligence is being introduced more and more into soci‐ tion, speeds and affordability. They are combined. If we do not ety in regard to all our products and services. This includes search have this type of approach as a philosophical one, we leave our‐ engine searches, the types of purchases made with different corpo‐ selves open to having more winners than losers. It would be no dif‐ rations and a number of different activities that take place. It is im‐ ferent than having lost education opportunities for people and a re‐ portant there be accountability and oversight for that. quirement for the government to come in and do the right thing, which is to make things more affordable. A number of different things have been going on with regard to Canadians and their privacy. There is no doubt there will be more challenges with this bill. We want to go back to a number of differ‐ ent structures that take place with respect to this. Again, the New I mentioned the concentration of our population. It is important Democrats championed a digital bill of rights for many years. I we tie this into the bill as we finally expand to rural and remote lo‐ want to highlight a few important things. cations, and the security and accountability for that information.

If we cannot have a fair, open and just society with regard to our digital footprint, we believe our democracy is threatened, our econ‐ ● (1155) omy is threatened and, more important, investments into this coun‐ try will be threatened. We will not have the same oversight that Eu‐ rope or the United States have. That is very important to ensure that investment in Canada will take place We have talked a lot about preserving different cultures and pro‐ viding business opportunities for areas that have been weakened It is important to note that if we are working toward things like because of their geography or lack of connectivity to large popula‐ access to telecommunication services all across Canada and we are tions, but if we do not put a rules-based system in place that allows investing in this, we need to think about the billions of dollars al‐ them to compete fairly, then they will fall to the wayside. Specifi‐ ready spent on this, along with the additional money to be spent. cally, we could have a number of opportunities for smaller busi‐ We want this to be done right and proper, especially with nesses to evolve, some scale-ups to take place, communities that COVID-19. could actually have some empowerment in getting to new markets and keeping the community stronger and together, but if it is not Over the years, as we have gone to more online services and in‐ done in a way to have online privacy protection and so that busi‐ vested in this, we have had opportunities. When we think about nesses can compete in a fair way, then it is going to be lost. how we use this space for ourselves, whether it be commercial ac‐ tivity, entertainment or business, we sell off the spectrum. The spectrum is the infrastructure we can use. It is above us. It is the radio and capacity to move, most recently, the 5G network. We will One of the concerns we have in general, not only with regards to see a spectrum auction. ourselves as a country but also the rest of the world with some of the web giants, is the consolidation of services and how online ser‐ In the past 20 years, $22 billion of revenue has come into the vices are used. In Canada, our competition has not been the public coffers with spectrum auctions. We have seen a patchwork strongest at some points, but there is an opportunity as we do this, of activity take place all across the country. which is why this legislation is so important. 2302 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders With the spectrum auction coming up, New Democrats have ar‐ ● (1200) gued that charging as much money as we can to the telcos coming in and then seeing how things go results in what we have right now: less competition and higher prices, and prices that, quite frankly, Mr. Gary Anandasangaree (Parliamentary Secretary to the limit people's participation in the digital world. This is a concern Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I that we have, and so we have suggested to turn the spectrum auc‐ want to pick up on the enforcement mechanism in the bill, which tion around, like many other countries have done, and use it as a would be the establishment of a new tribunal that would be accessi‐ way to connect at lower costs by putting out expectations, such as ble and able to impose significant fines on those who violate the an RFP-type model. When the bidding comes in, we may get a little act. I want to take issue with appointments. As a government, since less money coming in the front door, but the expectations are going we took over we put in a very robust appointment process that is to be higher and the requirements to connect rural or remote com‐ merit-based and represents the breadth of this country. munities will be there. The telcos will use it or lose it. That is one of the things we believe could be a real benefit to move along the different programs. I want my friend to comment on what specific issues he has with such an accessible tribunal, which I believe is warranted in this sit‐ Basically, what we have now is a series of programs out there uation. where communities almost have to go on bended knee to get ac‐ cess, to get support to actually lower the price points to make things more competitive and attractive. Our model would have a reverse Mr. Brian Masse: Mr. Speaker, I believe the vast majority of ap‐ role. The business community would already have the expectation pointments, even when controversial ones have popped up, have that the spectrum is less, but the time frame to connect Canadians is been good people doing good things for Canadians. However, that high, with the expectation that they use it or lose it, for those things type of appointment process lends itself to some degree of political to happen relatively quickly. In fact, industry has indicated that the meddling, corruption and also influence from the outside. NDP plan could take place and connect Canada within four years: 98% in three years and the last little part in the last year, because it is more difficult in some locations. I have been in Ottawa for almost 19 years now, and I have seen a This is important and critical, because this potential law would number of different stories played out over the years that give me lay out the framework on how that activity takes place. It is one of concern. It is a legitimate concern in this bill, and it also can change the reasons we believe this tribunal is one of the more interesting with the governments that handle the appointment process. It is curiosities, and there are other things to talk about regarding that. something of concern worth talking about. However, if we spend all of this money, time and public policy and then do not get it right, we would have a weak and irresponsible ap‐ proach to oversight in making sure that Canada does not have prob‐ With regard to who is on those committees and tribunals, it is lems with regards to this. It is already going to create a skew in the about the length of time and the types of people on it. Only one of public policy laws that we have. I fear that the bill, in its current three to six tribunal members would need to have privacy law expe‐ form, if it does not sharpen up on those points, would create a rience, and that is one specific example of my concern. These are skewed market for some years to come. very technical things to deal with. Parliament most likely will not deal with this again any time soon. It has taken far too long to get to this point. We have to get this through a minority Parliament, we have to get it through the ● (1205) Senate and we have to get it signed off by the Prime Minister at the end of the day. That is going to take some time and commitment, which we have with the New Democrats. We want to improve the Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC): Mr. bill, we want to make sure that it is stronger, but if we do not get Speaker, one of the concerns I have, being from a large rural con‐ these points right, we are going to undermine things. This is why, stituency, is the interplay of this bill and the effect it may have on when we think about how important this is with our current public rural Canada, specifically small and medium-sized enterprises with‐ policy and our resources, everybody out there has been concerned in rural and remote parts of Canada. I am wondering if the member about COVID-19 and the effects upon the broadband and the expe‐ would have comments on that. rience for education, involvement and commitment. To conclude, the difference for New Democrats is that we be‐ Mr. Brian Masse: Mr. Speaker, it is one of the key components lieve that our human rights and digital rights are enshrined just as of what we need to do to get right. As we are expanding into rural our physical rights. As we move to this type of engagement, as we and remote Canada, we want to make sure there is even more confi‐ see hybrids take place within workplaces, schools and other types dence for the personal protection of privacy. Also, there is a bit of of activity, this bill is a step forward, but it needs to be strength‐ cultural change. So many of us in urban centres who have had ac‐ ened, and we can be counted on to do that. It is our intent to make cess to high-speed Internet and other types of services have been Parliament work, but, more importantly, to make sure that we have used to some of that abuse, whereas we want to put in protections laws that are going to work to protect Canadians. for small and medium-sized enterprises. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2303

Government Orders Again, there are a number of different things. Net neutrality is a I would like to acknowledge that British Columbia's privacy pro‐ good example, but there are also algorithms and how they direct tection for decades has been recognized across North America and traffic and different businesses in different ways. When we see different parts of the world. There is no doubt that British Columbia there is abuse taking place, it can also come at the expense of small will provide good opportunity for some lessons to strengthen our and medium-sized businesses. One of the changes we are looking own Privacy Commissioner as well. That is key. for is greater accountability to those formats because people literal‐ ly put their whole life and efforts into small businesses. It was hard New Democrats support these changes. We have amendments enough as it was before COVID-19, and now it is even worse. prepared already, and we will be adding more amendments. We have to get this right. There is only going to be one chance at this in As well, businesses are paying for the connections to be able to the near future as we are building out and doing things more online be compete. Things we need to bring to account are things like the than before. We have to enshrine the philosophy that our human algorithms. rights are connected here. If we do not enshrine that human rights are connected with regard to this, that one's digital rights are like Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): Mr. one's physical rights, then we will be lost; and, we cannot do that. Speaker, my colleague is a leader within our caucus and is very We have to win. well-informed on this file and very knowledgeable about this very complex issue. ● (1210)

As he knows, I have been working on the heritage committee. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ We have also been looking at Facebook and the web giants and that dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ cozy relationship the Liberals have with the web giants. We have er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. seen that lobbying over the last few years tripled since the Liberals Speaker, I want to ask the member for further comments in regard became the government. to the tribunal because that is a critical component here. The mem‐ ber has expressed great concern in terms of the timeliness of deci‐ In terms of personal privacy, I am wondering if the member sions being made by the tribunal. I wonder if he could just provide could talk a bit about what he would like to see improved in this some further thoughts on how that issue could be best addressed. bill to make sure that cozy relationship does not get any sort of As opposed to focusing his attention on the appointments, are there prevalence. mechanisms that he could see being put into place that would en‐ sure a more timely response once issues have been raised? Mr. Brian Masse: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Edmon‐ ton Strathcona for her hard work on this, and also for reinforcing Mr. Brian Masse: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the tribunal will be subject the protection and strengthening of the Privacy Commissioner. That to a judicial review, and it could be challenged. The challenge that office has done wonders for this country. I have seen about four pri‐ we are going to be faced with is that decisions could be pushed off vacy commissioners in my tenure in Parliament, and they have all down the line. For example, it could take a long time for CRTC de‐ been strong. I have not always agreed with some of their decisions, cisions to come back and it is one of the most frustrating things. I but they certainly have been at the forefront of accountability in give credit to our incumbents where they need to be given credit, as public policy in pushing for greater protection for Canadians. The they have actually had to deal with a broken system, with CRTC U.S. does not have this. This is one of our moments of strength that not having the resources and the capabilities to get back in a timely we as a country have in a structure. The member is absolutely cor‐ manner. Therefore, the tribunal is going to be critical for that. rect. We need to make sure the Privacy Commissioner's office is strengthened and remains independent because it has been an asset, Having judicial experience added to it that is stronger than what not only for personal information but also for our businesses across is currently there and also making sure that some of the powers it this country. has cannot overturn the Privacy Commissioner are some of the things I would like to see advanced in this bill. Ms. (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP): Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Windsor West for his detailed as‐ Mr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith (Beaches—East York, Lib.): sessment of Bill C-11. It is the first opportunity for me to speak to Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Wil‐ the bill. I certainly plan to vote for it at second reading to get to lowdale. committee. We increasingly live our lives online and our laws need to reflect An amendment I hope to pursue at committee is an issue that the that reality. Privacy is a human right and it is inextricably connect‐ hon. member discussed. That is getting the PIPEDA framework in ed to our personal autonomy. Canada to apply to political parties. Here in British Columbia at the provincial level, political parties have to meet privacy require‐ The Council of Europe's Convention 108 states, “The purpose of ments. I commend the member for raising it early in debate, and this Convention is to protect every individual, whatever his or her ask if the will also support amendments in nationality or residence, with regard to the processing of their per‐ committee? sonal data, thereby contributing to respect for his or her human rights and fundamental freedoms, and in particular the right to pri‐ Mr. Brian Masse: Yes, Mr. Speaker, New Democrats support vacy.” The GDPR states, “This Regulation protects fundamental amendments and we will be proposing several. There is no doubt rights and freedoms of natural persons and in particular their right about it. to the protection of personal data.” 2304 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders The incredible scale of data collection can be a powerful force, tion to the Equifax breach, but we also met with Facebook officials. both for good and bad, so we need strong privacy and digital rights At that time, when a question was put by I think the member for and a strong regulator to enforce them. Thornhill as to what Facebook's views were on the potential new regulations, they said absolutely no new regulations were required There is much in our government's Bill C-11, which is a serious in Canada due to the strong framework through PIPEDA and, if reform of PIPEDA and certainly long overdue. I remember in June there were new rules, that might affect Facebook's willingness and 2018, I introduced legislation simply to give the Privacy Commis‐ interest in investing in Canada. Certainly, we have come a long way sioner new powers, which our privacy committee had twice unani‐ since those kinds of conversations and push-back by big tech com‐ mously recommended. We have come a long way since then with panies against stronger privacy rules. this substantive bill. OpenMedia said, “Bill C-11 is a big win for privacy in Canada.” While I have heard some reflections from experts and certainly from some parliamentary colleagues already about how the bill can potentially be improved, or some open questions about what might need to be fixed, it is certainly deserving of our support at second reading. I look forward to working with colleagues across party ● (1215) lines to improve the legislation at committee where we can. At this point, to work at committee across party lines something of a detour is required. I want to specifically commend my Conser‐ vative Party colleagues from Prince George and Thornhill, my NDP colleague from Timmins—James Bay and my Liberal colleague from Kitchener Centre. We worked very long and hard on privacy We saw that Mark Zuckerberg unfortunately did not attend be‐ issues in the last Parliament. We helped found the International fore the IGC, though he said he would like to work with parliamen‐ Grand Committee, comprised of over 10 countries, to discuss these tarians around the world, but we can certainly say that the days of issues. We hosted the second meeting of the IGC in Ottawa. We self-regulation are over and asking for regulation. Here is that kind tabled the report “Towards Privacy by Design” in February of of regulation in Canada. 2018. When we as parliamentarians talk about committee work and of‐ ten the overlooked nature of the committee work, we do not always see that committee work turn into legislation. In this instance we have. We recommended stronger consent rules and we see stronger On consent, I have to tell one other story that happened at com‐ rules in Bill C-11. We recommended algorithmic transparency and mittee. Again, we had Facebook officials there. We were in the we see in Bill C-11 a commitment on transparency where systems midst of going down the rabbit hole of the Cambridge Analytica are used to make predictions, recommendations or decisions about scandal and the Canadian context of that third-party app, which had consumers. We recommended data portability and interoperability. shared so much information. I think it was under 300 Canadians We see those commitments in Bill C-11. who had used the app, but thousands of Canadians had their infor‐ mation shared. I put to Facebook at the time, “How is it that on the We see stronger powers for the Privacy Commissioner. I men‐ basis of meaningful consent thousands of Canadians could have tioned that need for a strong regulator, including order-making, au‐ agreed that their friends share their information through this third- diting and the ability to levy fines. We see order-making powers. party app and then share it with Cambridge Analytica?” With a We see the ability to audit. We see a new tribunal, and while I un‐ straight face somehow, a Facebook representative said to me that it derstand some of the caution or questions members are raising in was in their terms and conditions. respect of this design, it is consistent with the competition commis‐ sioner and tribunal operations and worth looking at more seriously to see if it can be approved. However, through the tribunal, we see the ability to levy significant fines, in the magnitude of $10 million to a maximum of $25 million for more serious fines. In terms of the course of that committee work, I want to reflect on a couple of stories about why this kind of legislation is so im‐ That speaks to the problematic nature of consent in the existing portant and critical. law and the lack of meaningful consent. Thankfully, our Privacy Commissioner, despite his current lack of meaningful powers, pur‐ I think it was in the fall of 2017, when we were in the midst of sued that line of inquiry and found that Facebook violated our cur‐ the study on PIPEDA reform, that the member for Thornhill, the rent laws and took the matter to court. We know that with stronger former member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley, I believe I am getting consent rules, there would have been no ability for a Facebook rep‐ that right, and I went down to Washington and met with other elect‐ resentative to say with a straight face that there was meaningful ed representatives there. We witnessed some of the hearings in rela‐ consent. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2305

Government Orders Plain language is important. I would go further, though, and say are going to have to grapple with the consequences of this sort of that as we think about consent, particularly in a consumer context, I legislation. think we ought to be more wary of privacy by default. We have to be more concerned about privacy by default. Where there is a rea‐ Would the member be able to provide some context about any sonable expectation of the consumer that information is going to be safeguards that may exist or any suggestions that he would have to shared and used in a particular way, then explicit consent, obvious‐ ensure that there is in fact a level playing field in that regard? ly, ought not need to be required, but where there are secondary us‐ es, where there are uses beyond a reasonable expectation of that Mr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith: Mr. Speaker, I would say a few consumer then, certainly, we need explicit opt-in consent. It needs things. First, the concept of proportionality is really important in to be very clear to consumers how their information is to be used, if this regard. Second, it is a live concern that should be addressed by at all. the committee in some respect, but I would also note and would present some caution in response that there are some small compa‐ I want to emphasize the consumer context because it is a curiosi‐ nies that collect mountains of personal information. It is not neces‐ ty of privacy legislation and a curiosity of consumer protection leg‐ sarily the size of the company but the activities of the company that islation that when I purchase my phone I do not have to read the we ought to be most concerned about. terms and conditions. There is no expectation by government that I read the terms and conditions, yet I am protected. There are implied Mr. Charlie Angus (Timmins—James Bay, NDP): Mr. Speak‐ warranties pursuant to consumer protection legislation. I do not er, I want to thank my hon. colleague for an excellent speech. I felt need to read those terms and conditions in order for my rights to be I should have written it with him at some points, because we spent protected as a consumer, yet there is an expectation when I down‐ so much time together studying this and pushing the government load any app on my phone that I read the terms and conditions. for action. There are some key elements in this legislation that cer‐ That cannot be a tenable state of affairs if we want to protect con‐ tainly come from our work together on the ethics committee. sumers. We cannot expect consumers to read every term and condi‐ tion, and every consumer contract in the course of downloading ap‐ I am interested in the issue of algorithmic accountability. I think plications, and in the course of living their lives, as I said, increas‐ that is something the ethics committee was way out front on. When ingly online. Our laws need to reflect that reality. I look at the other legislation, about having Facebook and Google under the CRTC, I feel it was the best idea for the 1990s. When we There are obviously some straightforward fixes for this legisla‐ are dealing with algorithmic powers that are pushing extremist con‐ tion. The membership of the tribunal should obviously have greater tent, that are pushing Holocaust denial, and when we have seen privacy expertise. I think that is a no-brainer. We do have to think how that is the real driver on the big social media platforms, and more deeply through some of these consent rules and how we can the inability of parliamentarians to actually look inside that black strengthen them potentially further. I would like to see us go be‐ box, I would like to ask my hon. colleague how he would suggest yond algorithmic explainability to some kind of algorithmic ac‐ we actually get some stronger accountability mechanisms on the al‐ countability. gorithms that are pushing the content and driving people to certain I know that others have mentioned political parties being left out. sites and certain conversations. I do not know that political parties need to be subject to PIPEDA specifically, but they ought to be subject to privacy legislation. If Mr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith: Mr. Speaker, I am looking for‐ there is no further effort under way by the government, then I think ward to getting back to the ethics committee to work with the mem‐ PIPEDA may well be the place to do that. ber for Timmins—James Bay on these issues.

Lastly, I think we have to focus on children, in particular, when When we look at the use of algorithms and the use of algorithms we look at consent rules and protecting kids on the Internet. Previ‐ combined with just the scale of data collection that we see today, ously, I have written and spoken publicly about my support for our we can narrowly focus in on consumer privacy on the one hand, but right to be forgotten, but I do think we have to be more focused on on the other hand there are bigger conversations about how that in‐ our rules and protection for kids as they grow up with the Internet formation is used to target messages to us and the implications for and live their entire lives online. our democracy. There is a reason, when we hosted that meeting in Ottawa for the IGC, that it was on big data, privacy and democracy. I will close by simply saying that this is a big bill. This is second reading and, certainly, all of us ought to support this in principle. I look forward to working with experts and colleagues to strengthen In terms of algorithmic accountability specifically, I would say I the bill at committee and get into the details. am not certain yet what the perfect solution looks like, but I have always been interested in the work of the Treasury Board in respect ● (1220) of algorithmic impact assessments. It is clear enough, and I am glad Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC): Mr. to see in Bill C-11 that there is a commitment to algorithmic trans‐ Speaker, one concern that has been highlighted by a number of oth‐ parency. er colleagues in this place is the fact that the bill may have the unin‐ tended consequence of creating an unlevel playing field for small Going further and having some body, potentially the Privacy and medium-sized enterprises, versus the big players. The big play‐ Commissioner, able to look under the hood and audit algorithms ers have teams of lawyers and departments to deal with this sort of and their potential positive and negative impacts is important. We thing, as opposed to the small and medium-sized enterprises that need to figure out a way to do just that. 2306 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders ● (1225) could harm Canadians, the federal government needed to act. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ Canada required a national privacy standard to ensure consumer dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ confidence and regulatory certainty for businesses. er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to acknowledge the phenomenal amount of work that the standing committee did in order to help facilitate the rec‐ ommendations. At the outset of the new millennium, PIPEDA was created to ad‐ Could the member provide some of his thoughts in regard to the dress the privacy concerns arising from a period of technological pre-presentation work involved in the legislation? Does he have disruption fuelled by the rise of the Internet. It provided a frame‐ any closing thoughts on that? work with robust privacy protections and the flexibility to support Mr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith: Mr. Speaker, I would just say the legitimate needs of businesses to use personal information. It al‐ very quickly that this is one of the few examples I have seen in this so provided a mechanism by which the provincial private sector Parliament, at this scale at least, where parliamentarians from all privacy laws could be considered substantially similar. This meant parties worked constructively and collegially. No one would have that where such a law is accorded that designation, PIPEDA does been able to tell which member of which party was asking ques‐ not apply to an organization's activities within a province. tions of Facebook officials, Google officials and various representa‐ tives and other experts. When we made those recommendations in February 2018, I do not think people were particularly seized with this issue. Then we went down the rabbit hole of Cambridge Analytica and really con‐ In 2004, Alberta and British Columbia passed private sector pri‐ tinued the examination of these issues and this work. Out of that vacy laws that are considered substantially similar, as is Quebec's work, I can see our committee work reflected in the legislation. I law. A number of newer provincial health information laws have al‐ think members of all parties ought to be proud of that. We ought to so passed, since 2005, that have been appropriately designated as now take that and work even more to improve the legislation going substantially similar. forward. Mr. (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry (Innovation and Industry), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to join my colleagues in speaking to the digital charter implementation act, 2020. PIPEDA would continue, however, to apply to the federally reg‐ ulated sector in a province and to any personal information collect‐ In today's ever-changing digital environment, Canadians have ed, used or disclosed in the course of commercial activities across demanded better protection of their personal information. They provincial borders. This provided a stable regulatory environment have also demanded that organizations be held accountable for mis‐ and flexibility for the provinces, and supported Canada's trade in‐ using their information. Stakeholders have told us that they want terests for many years. flexibility to innovate responsibly and want consistency with priva‐ cy rules everywhere else in other jurisdictions. I am proud to say that the digital charter implementation act, which would enact the consumer privacy protection act, or CPPA, represents the most ambitious overhaul of Canada's private sector However, today we are faced with a changed environment. To‐ privacy regime since PIPEDA was first introduced, in 2000. CPPA day, in many ways, history is repeating itself, but the risks have would introduce significant changes to better protect the personal evolved. The role of digital technologies is considerably more cen‐ information of Canadians in the way they have been demanding, in‐ tral to our lives than it was 20 years ago. Just consider our experi‐ cluding, of course, with strong financial consequences for those ence in recent months with the pandemic. To harness all that the who do not follow the law. modern digital world has to offer, we clearly needed to modernize our federal private sector privacy law. Prior to PIPEDA, in the 1990s, other countries around the globe introduced new laws to ensure that privacy was protected and that the opportunities afforded by e-commerce and the flow of informa‐ tion around the globe flourished. In particular, the EU introduced a privacy directive for its member countries to implement into their national laws. In a globally connected economy, our laws needed to be consis‐ tent with those of other jurisdictions. Internationally agreed privacy Inspired by the EU law, Quebec introduced the first private sec‐ rules, such as the OECD privacy guidelines, first introduced in tor privacy law in Canada in 1994. This was an important step for‐ 1980, were updated in 2013. So too, I might add, more recently, ward, but it also raised the potential and, of course, the prospect for was the APEC privacy framework. Indeed, privacy laws based on a patchwork of provincial privacy laws. With the prospect of multi‐ these international norms have been changing and advancing in Eu‐ ple, possibly conflicting, rules and gaps in privacy protection that rope, Japan, South America and New Zealand. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2307

Government Orders ● (1230) enforcement and real accountability are clearly reflected in the digi‐ tal charter implementation act. What have these changes entailed? Core privacy principles have remained, though some have been expanded, such as accountability and breach reporting. New elements, such as enhancing rights of I want to thank members for their attention today, and I can as‐ erasure and mobility rights, a greater emphasis on transparency, sure them that our approach to privacy protection respects the pri‐ more certainty for businesses and consumers through codes certifi‐ vacy rights of Canadians. It is pragmatic, principled, meets our cation and stronger consequences for non-compliance, have been trading needs and provides a consistent, coherent framework that the principal hallmarks of many of these evolving changes. Canadians and stakeholders can rely on. Closer to home, this summer, Quebec introduced amendments to its private sector privacy law, and B.C. recently conducted a study on its own laws. Ontario too is considering introducing a new pri‐ With Bill C-11, we will continue to encourage trade and invest‐ vate sector privacy law. Stakeholders have told us they are worried ment and grow an economy that extends across provincial and in‐ about the burden of multiple laws with different requirements. They ternational borders alike. demanded harmonization here at home. ● (1235) There is a clear need for the progress and reforms included in the digital charter implementation act, 2020. If we do not act, there is a risk of further fragmentation of privacy rules across the country. We Mr. (Peace River—Westlock, CPC): Mr. need to keep up with changing technology and business practices, Speaker, the bill seems to nibble around the edges of, but is never and incorporate the best international practices, protocols and safe‐ really clear on, the issue of classifying individual sites and social guards in our own domestic laws. We also need to set a common media networks by whether they are content curators or publishers. standard for privacy protection for the private sector across Canada. This is an important aspect. A regular newspaper is held to account by our libel laws, yet many of our online content curators are not. Like the current PIPEDA, the new CPPA would be grounded in the federal trade and commerce powers. It recognizes the very im‐ portance of doing business on a national basis and in an economy I am wondering if the member feels this is an appropriate place that must work across provincial boundaries. Also, like PIPEDA, it to answer that question or if it should be decided somewhere else. would provide for a mechanism to recognize provincial laws that are substantially similar. These regulations would set out the crite‐ ria and process for such recognition or for reconsideration of it, and Mr. Ali Ehsassi: Mr. Speaker, as I tried to highlight in my re‐ would continue to provide the provincial flexibility that has been marks, we recognize that it is incredibly important to look at the important to PIPEDA's success. CPPA, like its predecessor, would practices of the provinces and look at the legal regimes and frame‐ maintain the Privacy Commissioner's ability to collaborate and co- works that have been adopted in other jurisdictions around the operate with his or her provincial counterparts, an important tool to world. There are many scenarios in which we had to ensure the bill ensure consistency. would provide a fair and stable legal framework for everyone oper‐ ating within the ambit of the law. We went over many scenarios, As the minister emphasized earlier today, the focus should al‐ and I can assure the member that the result, which is this legisla‐ ways be on compliance. Some ask why we cannot have just one na‐ tion, has considered them. It has looked at practices in other juris‐ tional law. The answer, of course, is that Canada is a federation; dictions, and I think we can all be incredibly proud that we will there is a division of powers. Indeed, the provinces provide impor‐ have a privacy law that is the gold standard for the world. tant coverage that a national law cannot, under our Constitution.

I would be remiss if I did not also acknowledge the international ● (1240) context. We live in an interconnected world. Data are constantly flowing Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): Mr. across borders. In 2002, the European Commission recognized Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his comments. PIPEDA as providing adequate protection relative to EU law, al‐ They were very interesting. lowing for the free flow of personal information between Canadian and European businesses. However, in 2018, a new EU regulation came into effect: the General Data Protection Regulation. It updat‐ I know this has been brought up already today, but I want to hear ed many of the existing requirements and added strong financial from the member about it. We know that Bill C-11 does not explic‐ penalties for contraventions. The EU is currently reviewing its ex‐ itly deal with political parties, and we have heard members within isting adequacy decisions, including the one applying to Canada. the government and from the opposition parties ask that it be in‐ cluded. That is why the government launched Canada's digital charter in 2019. Its 10 guiding principles offer a firm foundation on which to build an innovative and inclusive digital and data economy. The If the member could comment on why this was not included in principles of ensuring interoperability, a level playing field, strong Bill C-11, that would be great. 2308 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders Mr. Ali Ehsassi: Mr. Speaker, I can assure my colleague that this We continue to see more invasion of our privacy. I do not know question has arisen on quite a few occasions since this legislation about other members, but the thing that jumped out at me, during was first tabled by the minister. What I can say is that the pith and my first cursory read of this bill, was the term “algorithm trans‐ substance of this legislation deals with commercial activities. That parency”. That is something I am really fascinated by. is the first thing we should all bear in mind. However, the member raised an incredibly important issue. We should make sure our political parties are acting in a responsible On the weekend, my friend was telling me that he took his fashion. That is precisely why, as the member is well aware, we re‐ phone, laid it on the table and he and his friends talked about white cently updated the Elections Modernization Act to ensure that polit‐ rabbits for three to four minutes. They just said the words “white ical parties are acting in a responsible fashion. rabbits” often. Then they opened up his phone, went to Facebook Mr. (Fleetwood—Port Kells, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I and the advertisements he was getting were about white rabbits. read the legislation with interest. There is one aspect of things that Our phones are listening to us and there are algorithms that are pro‐ happen online that concerns me, and I am wondering if it will or moting certain things. has come up in conversations. It is the sneaky little personality tests that we see that ask someone to answer questions or enter their birth date. We learned from the analysis of Cambridge Analytica We can probably turn that feature off and mute the microphones that this is a way it gathered thousands of data points on a huge on our phones all the time if we know how to do that, if we care population. It is a form of privacy invasion, and it is very insidious. enough about it or are concerned about that kind of thing. There is a It looks like a fun little game, yet people are taking it, scraping it joke that the Chinese are listening to us. It is just an assumption that and using it for a commercial advantage. is being made. I do not think there is actually somebody listening I am wondering if this is an issue we will consider. on the other end, but there is an algorithm that is obviously listen‐ Mr. Ali Ehsassi: Mr. Speaker, as we heard earlier, in the first ing to what we are saying and trying push products toward us that part we had members of Parliament look into the various machina‐ we are interested in. tions that can be found online, and the ethics committee did an in‐ credible job. It looked at Cambridge Analytica and other issues that were of concern to all of us and made some recommendations. In The white rabbit story is interesting. It is not necessarily some‐ addition to that, as I noted, we looked at the best practices of other thing that would come up in day-to-day discussions. However, I jurisdictions as well. We fully came to realize, as the member right‐ know that if we connect to someone else's WiFi then suddenly we ly pointed out, that if a company is to collect data, it is imperative start getting different advertisements. My cousin has a CNC plasma that there be meaningful consent. This is really at the core of the cutting table for cutting metal. It is really cool, but what is interest‐ legislation that was tabled by the minister last week. ing is that when I go to his house and connect to his WiFi, which is Mr. Arnold Viersen (Peace River—Westlock, CPC): Mr. also connected to that CNC plasma table, I start getting advertise‐ Speaker, it is my honour to rise again today to address Bill C-11. ments for CNC cutting tables. That is wild and fascinating. The al‐ This bill, when printed, is nearly an inch thick. It is a monster bill gorithm transparency piece is one of the most fascinating pieces of for around here. It is a timely bill, as well. I am looking forward to this law. delving into it. I have not had the opportunity to read through it in great detail to this point, but I want to speak to it. This is a top-of-mind issue for many Canadians. One of the Sometimes on Facebook, we get ads. We can click on the “X” to things I want to point out right off the top is that when someone is get rid of the ad. When an ad comes up, one wonders why they are online and a virtual persona, if they think they are getting a free seeing it. If I could get an answer for that, that would be amazing. product, they are actually the product. That is the thing to remem‐ ber and many folks do not seem to realize that. That is something I have not seen in this bill, which is important. I think it is missing from this bill, although this bill may not been seeking to address ● (1245) that specifically. There could be some sort of public awareness campaign, much the same as we have done with cigarettes. In the past, the public I am interested in that. What is being fed into the system that is was trained that if someone smoked cigarettes, they would get can‐ promoting this particular ad to me? That is something I am really cer. We could do this for online profiles and show the dangers and interested in knowing. At this point, there seems to be no recourse what is going on out there. whatsoever to know why these ads show up. In my virtual personal‐ ity that lives out on the Internet and in the data collected on me, As well, the member for Port Moody—Coquitlam mentioned what recent actions in particular have I undertaken that have driven what is actually happening with our data. We think we are filling this particular ad into my feed? I am fascinated to see if we are go‐ out a fun game or personality test, but we are actually giving away ing to be able to bring that transparency with this bill. I am not nec‐ data. It can be harvested commercially to send advertisements and essarily convinced we will be able to do it, but I am fascinated by promote certain products. it. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2309

Government Orders The other piece I do not think this bill addresses at all is the For the most part, I would say we are getting that right. Where question of social media platforms or Internet platforms being mes‐ there is some concern is about political messaging. We have already sage boards or publishers. This continues to be a sticking point. seen that Facebook has worked hard on that, but there is always a There have been committee hearings with the major social media spectrum, I would say, of political messaging. There is explicit par‐ platforms, and we have seen countries around the world seek to ty messaging, which is relatively easy to monitor and manage, but grapple with this issue. This is precisely what governments ought to then there is political messaging that goes farther afield. When it is be doing. a random, individual Canadian doing political messaging, how is that managed? That is when it will be really important for us to get What it means to govern and to legislate is to come up with a the algorithmic transparency piece right. system that balances the interests of all people in a way of our choosing. That is what it means to be in a democracy. That is what it means to be governed by ourselves, so to speak. In many cases we see effective lobbying efforts by organized groups, and in par‐ ticular commercial interests, that do not necessarily allow the gov‐ There is another thing I am interested in seeing and have not ernment to get that balance right. seen. Part of the government's rollout on this bill has been pushing freedom from hate and from violent extremism. That is important We see in the news how we grapple to enable this. Some large to me. The managing of the Internet and platforms around violent social media platforms have amassed a wealth that exceeds that of and degrading sexually explicit material has been something I have many nations. Some of the largest nations in the world are able to worked on in this place. It was in 2017 that the House unanimously compete with this, but many smaller nations do not have the re‐ passed a motion for the government to study the impacts of violent source capacity many of these large media companies do, so there and degrading sexually explicit material. is tension there. I compliment this bill in that it is attempting to have that discussion.

Do I trust the Liberals to get it right? No, typically not, but I commend them for bringing this forward and beginning the conver‐ sation. This is going to be a long conversation. Like I said before, This was something that had not been studied since 1985. I was this bill is an inch thick. not even born in 1985, so that tells us it was a long time ago. The member for Fleetwood—Port Kells is shaking his head at me. I am The member for Scarborough—Rouge Park just made a com‐ not sure what that belies about me or him, but it was a while back, ment. I do not quite know what he said, but I am sure he was com‐ before I was born and before the Internet existed. plimenting me on my speech. I thank him and appreciate that.

Around algorithmic transparency, the piece that is really impor‐ tant, and that I do not think this bill quite grasps, is whether plat‐ forms are curating content, publishing it or choosing winners and A study on the impacts of violent and degrading sexually explicit losers. The algorithmic transparency of that is a big concern for me, material was done in 1985. I remember distinctly, in 1991, going to and I know it is a big concern for many people across the country. my uncle's house. He had gotten the Internet. I had heard about it It is interesting this is a concern for people both on the right and the and said I wanted to see the Internet, so he showed me where the left. It is a concern for all the political parties. It is a concern for phone line plugged into the wall. I asked if that was it and he said ideological differences, and in general for what is curated and what we should look at it. He turned his computer on. It had a giant mon‐ is deemed to be on the platform. itor and a big tower beside his desk that hummed. Members may remember the sound coming through the speaker of dial-up Inter‐ This is also a concern for the platforms themselves, in that one net. I remember, for the first time ever, seeing the Internet. We went particular message that comes from a platform can then become to dogpile.com, which was an early search engine. That was the be‐ part of a mob mentality. People could then really go after it. ginning of the Internet for me, in 1991. ● (1250) There is no protection, necessarily, for platforms because there is ambiguity about whether they are responsible for messages on the message board and, if they are, whether they are liable as a newspa‐ Here we are nearly 30 years later, and we are still grappling with per would be. That is the major challenge. how to manage this. It is a public information highway. There are public highways all over the country, and the government manages While I am not convinced, at this point, that we will get algorith‐ a licensing system for folks who get to use the public highways and mic transparency in that sense, it is important to be able to tell peo‐ roads. There is no controversy around that. It seems like an effec‐ ple, “This is our algorithm, this is how messages get on the board. tive way to manage it. Given that it is tangible and we can see it in We are not responsible for the messages and, therefore, this is how front of us, that is a manageable thing. In reality, we are dealing the system works.” There is no human input. It is just a sophisticat‐ with the information highway. Up to this point, there has been very ed method of getting messages in front of people that they want to little direction on the role of the government in managing the ex‐ see, that they think are interesting and that they find helpful. pectations of Canadians. 2310 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders ● (1255) whether in this place, in the other place or in the committee, as well as out there in the general public. Many parents who I have talked to are looking for tools they can use to protect their children online, and they are not satisfied with ● (1300) being told they should just be better parents. They say they want I know that this will be a hot topic of discussion. I look forward help from the internet service providers. They want help from their to continuing that debate, and I look forward to the questions. government. They want the ability to have some recourse with these large platforms. I am interested to see that. Mr. Gary Anandasangaree (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the The government says the Internet should be free from hate and member for Peace River—Westlock and I have worked together for violent extremism. That is something that I support notionally. a number of years. In fact, I was complimenting him when he was Video imaging is the area where I am most concerned. In the other speaking, as he said some decent things about the government, direction, I am concerned about free speech, and particularly the which is quite unusual. In any event, I want to thank the member use of words and typed messaging. That, I guess, is a little harder to for his walking us through, essentially, the history of technology to manage. However, particularly with images and video content, I where we are today. think there is a lot of room for the government to operate in, espe‐ cially with the violent and extremely degrading sexually explicit In terms of the enforcement mechanisms built into this piece of material that we have seen since 2007. legislation, could the member comment on its effects and what ele‐ ments could strengthen that piece? I believe this is a very important Since then, we can chart the impacts of those on Canadian soci‐ tool. Any legislation without proper enforcement would be a fail‐ ety on a number of different indicators, and they have gotten worse. ure, but in this case, we have a very robust system in place. We see this particularly with our children in terms of the loneliness Mr. Arnold Viersen: Mr. Speaker, the jury is still out on the en‐ index going up and the isolation index going up. All of these things forcement piece, given this is a brand new piece of legislation and are exacerbated by the COVID lockdowns. the enforcement tools would be brand new. These are all things that we need to ensure come into this. Free‐ I work a lot in the area of human trafficking and around multi- dom from hate and violent extremism is necessary, and we have to jurisdictional cases, where many of these players are headquartered get that right. This is what governments are built for. This is what in other countries. These multi-jurisdictional cases tend to get very we need to do, and we have to get it right, so I am looking forward slippery. to continuing debate around that. I have concerns, and I am sure the member shares those con‐ The last thing I want to point out, which I find to be a little inter‐ cerns. While this is a good first attempt, I think we will be constant‐ esting, and I am hoping for some answers on from the government ly updating these particular privacy laws to continue to get the re‐ side, is this bill, the procedure of the House and how this bill will sults we are looking for, in both directions, whether it is in overly roll out over time. I must say this bill was unceremoniously aggressive fines, or where clear perpetrators are just getting away dumped on Parliament. I was not anticipating it. I have been work‐ with it. I think we will be fine-tuning this over the long term. ing on these issues for a while, and it was not something that was clearly on my radar. ● (1305) [Translation] I had written to the Minister of Canadian Heritage around this is‐ sue, and I was wondering how he was going to manage it, because I Ms. Louise Chabot (Thérèse-De Blainville, BQ): Mr. Speaker, do remember seeing in his mandate letter that he was to try to re‐ I would like to ask a question to the member who just spoke. move hate and violent extremism from Canada through the Internet. My colleague said that he has numerous concerns that are not be‐ I had some ideas and concerns around that, so I had written to him ing addressed by the bill in its essence. If we take the bill for what about it. I did not receive any feedback back saying the bill is com‐ it is, and not what it is not, we can see that its provisions currently ing, so I was a little surprised that this bill came when it did. do not apply to the government. As we have seen, the government has not taken all the necessary steps to protect the identity of people The other thing that I am really looking for an answer on is why making requests. the rumour around here is that this bill will be going to the ethics committee. I am wondering why the bill is going to the ethics com‐ What does my colleague think of that? mittee. This seems like a bill built for the industry committee. That is typically where this would be dealt with, so I am left wondering. [English] The ethics committee is seized with a number of other issues, and I Mr. Arnold Viersen: Mr. Speaker, the question is in regard to am wondering why this bill would be rumoured to be headed to‐ folks who request their data to be turned over, to be able to see ward the ethics committee, when industry seems like the committee what data a particular company has on them. I think that is a good that would be more in tune with where we would like to go with start. this particular bill. In terms of the government, I do believe, if my memory serves I am going to be continuing to monitor the debate around this me well, that that has been a long-standing process for quite a while bill. I am looking forward to having a robust debate. I know that, already. People can request that information from the government given the size of the bill, we will be discussing it for a while, and learn what data the government holds. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2311

Government Orders If the member is talking about political parties, that has not been tions are another citizen, and we need to manage the relationships the case. I do not think the bill is dealing with political parties at all. between citizens. I think this is a noble attempt. We deal with that in the Elections Act. I think there is an ongoing discussion with the Elections Act around data and data manage‐ I know that this will be an ongoing conversation. I look forward ment there. In terms of the spam legislation that was brought in a to seeing where that takes us. number of years ago, there are special provisions for political par‐ ties there as well, most of which I agree with. Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC): Mr. Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to ask my colleague a ques‐ Speaker, it is always interesting to hear some of my colleague from tion regarding the interplay of public and private data in agricultur‐ Alberta's stories. al circumstances. One of the challenges that I see with this bill is the disparity that exists between urban and rural Canada. There has been some discussion today about new categories of data being exempt from privacy protections. I am wondering if the members feel that is a worrying step, considering that it gives the I would be curious to know if my friend has considered aspects opportunity for a Liberal government to give away to big tech gi‐ of the bill, specifically in regard to the private and public data that ants, which we have already seen it is potentially too close to. is used in modern agriculture for small and medium-sized enterpris‐ es associated with the developing industry of our egg producers. Mr. Arnold Viersen: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member put her finger right on the issue, which is that the coziness between par‐ Mr. Arnold Viersen: Mr. Speaker, agriculture and data is a ticular governments and particular media platforms is a concern. I growing area of expertise. I would just point out that if someone talked about that in my speech as well, saying this is something that goes to a John Deere dealership today, one of the things they will is not an ideology from the left or the right. see there is a dirt probe. I used to think that John Deere just sold We see it happening with governments, in particular when they tractors, but today they sell a moisture probe with a weather station are in power, having a cozy relationship with a particular platform, on top of it. They will set that up in the field so that a person, via and how that can sway public opinion on things. I share her con‐ satellite and cellphone, will get real-time information about the soil cern on that. I think that if she continues to hold her finger on that conditions, soil nutrients and weather conditions of the fields, particular issue, all the rest of the stuff might be spinning around, which may be scattered around the country. but that is the crux of the matter. Martin Deerline, the John Deere dealer in my area, has a whole ● (1310) suite of those data collection agencies. People have to pay a partic‐ Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ ular monthly fee for that service. Where that data goes and how it is dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ all managed, I am sure, is covered by this bill. er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, just because Google and Facebook exist and are on the In‐ ternet, one should not make the assumption that there is this won‐ I look forward to hearing from them at committee. derful cozy relationship. Whether it is coming from the Conserva‐ tives, New Democrats or the Bloc, it is as if they are trying to say Mr. Gary Anandasangaree (Parliamentary Secretary to the that the government of the day is in the pockets of these groups. I Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I find this interesting, as nothing could be further from the truth. We would like to start by saying that I will be splitting my time with all know that. That is a reality, and one of the reasons we have the the member for Richmond Hill. legislation that we have before us. There was a great deal of effort to get here. I am speaking here on the traditional unceded lands of the Algo‐ nquin people. I wonder if my friend across the way would provide his thoughts in regard to some of the work that was done prior? It was done in an apolitical fashion at the standing committee, where there were At the outset, I want to thank the Minister of Innovation, Science members from all political parties actually contributing to what we and Industry and his team for bringing forward Bill C-11, an act to have here today. enact the consumer privacy protection act, CPPA, and the personal information and data protection tribunal act. These are important Mr. Arnold Viersen: Mr. Speaker, I do not think the member lis‐ aspects as we, as a country, address the issues of privacy in relation tened to a word of my speech prior to his question, but I would like to the enormous amount of information that is constantly gathered, to point out that Facebook has met with the government over 140 and exists about all of us. times. This has been widely consulted, as he says, and widely lob‐ bied on as well. He will have to forgive me for doubting his inter‐ vention there. We are in an age when with a cellphone we have more informa‐ tion at our disposal than several libraries put together. We are able I know that in some cases a large media company's value can to access personal information about virtually anyone who has a outstrips a nation's value. This is something that we need to man‐ public profile, and certainly about anyone who has created a profile age. In my speech I pointed out that the exact thing the government in one of the major platforms, whether it be Facebook, Twitter, In‐ is in charge of is managing the relationship of its citizens. Corpora‐ stagram, TikTok or LinkedIn, and the list goes on. 2312 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders These have posed obvious questions for all of us as policy-mak‐ point individuals to these important bodies, including judiciary and ers or even as individual consumers in terms of how this informa‐ administrative tribunals, but also other bodies that make critical de‐ tion is used, how it is reproduced, copied and misused. We have cisions. seen the worst of it over the years in platforms like Facebook where information may have been reused over and over again. We are focused on ensuring a merit-based system that ensures At the centre of this legislation are three major aspects. First and the individual is fully qualified to make decisions on a particular is‐ foremost is consumer control over individuals' personal information sue. For me, my work on the Standing Committee on Immigration that is out there. and Refugees was a great learning experience. I saw first-hand how Second, it is about innovation. I know the previous speaker the IRB was transformed from a patronage-based appointment pro‐ spoke about the balancing act that we need in order to ensure free cess to one that is merit-based. We see decisions coming out of the speech and privacy. IRB that are fully reflective of the quality of candidates we put on those boards. The third element is to make sure that innovation continues. In‐ novation is absolutely important for a country like Canada. I know many innovators in my community who have done exceptionally When we look at appointments, it is meritocracy, but also diver‐ well. I have spoken about many of them here. The University of sity. We note that in previous governments, judicial appointments Toronto Scarborough campus has a hub in which many local inno‐ have often been focused on men. In fact, in the last several years, vators have come forward and have developed in my riding of we have now achieved gender parity. We are looking at enhancing Scarborough—Rouge Park. that and we are working toward greater diversity among other groups in Canada, including people with disabilities. I believe the Members may know of the company, Knowledgehook. It is a enforcement mechanism is critical and we have taken concrete company founded by my good friend Travis Ratnam. The company steps in that regard. was just given additional funding of $20 million to expand the pro‐ gram. It is a platform that allows students and teachers to work to‐ gether to use AI, devise curriculum and make sure that the weak‐ To note, there are monetary penalties that this tribunal could is‐ nesses of each student are highlighted to the teachers so that the sue. For example, there is a penalty of 3% of global revenue or $10 teachers can respond. million for non-compliant organizations. For a company like Face‐ book, Google or one of the major outfits, 3% of their global rev‐ In all of these new forms of technology, there are questions of enues is significant. The maximum penalty is 5% of global revenue privacy. We worry about the relationship between, for example, or $25 million for certain types of contraventions. companies gathering data for the purpose of insurance, whether health, life, or auto insurance, and the data that sometimes is readily captured in our day-to-day use. The government and the Minister of Innovation have brought forward a very important piece of legislation. It appears to have the All of these issues have become pronounced during COVID. We support of all parties. I am particularly impressed with the data pro‐ see that education, for example, is now online for many students tection tribunal act that is built into this bill and the mechanisms whose parents choose to have their kids study from home via the that allow for individuals to access the type of redress that is re‐ Internet; or for many post-secondary students who are studying vir‐ quired. tually. I always go back to the University of Toronto Scarborough campus, which is located in my riding, but there is also Centennial College, where most of the students are learning virtually. These I look forward to questions from my friends opposite. again have complicated the challenges for ensuring that privacy is maintained. ● (1320) ● (1315)

The digital charter that is before us does really allow for con‐ Mr. (Skeena—Bulkley Valley, NDP): Mr. sumers to have control over their personal information, and it al‐ Speaker, this is an interesting piece of legislation. One of the ques‐ lows for innovation and a strong enforcement oversight. Sadly, the tions that was posed earlier in the debate had to do with the fact that enforcement aspect has been quite weak in Canada over the years. political parties are omitted from this legislation and that their use We do not have adequate enforcement. In fact, technology itself is of personal information is not considered. The response provided hard to enforce, whether in Canada or other parts of the world. by the Minister of Industry earlier was that the bill really deals with The enforcement mechanism that is built into this legislation is commercial uses of data, yet I read in the index of the legislation critically important for us to look at. It is what makes this legisla‐ that it also deals with “statistical or scholarly study or research”, tion accessible to individuals who may have a complaint. The en‐ “Records of historic or archival importance”, and “artistic or liter‐ forcement mechanism looks to have individuals appointed through ary purposes”. These are clearly not commercial uses. the order in council process. I want to speak about the way our government, since taking of‐ Does the member agree that it is an omission that political parties fice in 2015, has managed to put together proper processes to ap‐ are not dealt with by the bill? November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2313

Government Orders ● (1325) advertising and all the different measures that our government in Mr. Gary Anandasangaree: Mr. Speaker, I think many of us the last Parliament and previously has put forward, I do think that have been watching elections overseas in the last several weeks, Elections Canada is best equipped to address the issues of privacy, and I am quite impressed with our Chief Electoral Officer and Elec‐ which are absolutely valid. I appreciate the question, but I do think tions Canada, which is an independent body that regulates elec‐ it should be within that purview. tions. I believe that Elections Canada is well suited to be the arbiter of these issues, particularly with respect to elections. It is definitely an area that our Elections Commissioner will take note of in the Mr. (Richmond Hill, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am coming years. pleased to rise today to speak about the digital charter implementa‐ tion act, 2020. I want to talk specifically about the balanced ap‐ Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ proach to the compliance and enforcement set out in the consumer dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ privacy protection act, also known as the CPPA. er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, to pick up on that point, whether it is Elections Canada or the commissioner, there is opportunity to ensure that these lists are Canadians have told us they want to see strong consequences for protected, and there are instructions given out to parties, candidates those who mishandle their personal information. Financial conse‐ and people who are recipients of the data. quences can be an important tool in protecting Canadians’ privacy, I do not know, but this may be a better question to ask to the but so is helping organizations comply with the law at the outset. members who put forward the question, whether or not Elections Canada has actually solicited this sort of a recommendation. I am not necessarily aware of it, but I would be very much interested if I am pleased to say that the CPPA takes a very balanced ap‐ in fact members of the New Democrats or the Bloc, who have proach to compliance and enforcement. It would help companies raised this issue, have been in talks with Elections Canada. This is get privacy right from the ground up, and takes a phased approach more of a comment than anything else. to enforcement to correct problems as soon as they are discovered. The CPPA would incentivize organizations to get their practices My question to my colleague is more in terms of getting this type right from the start, and the Privacy Commissioner would have a of legislation forward and how it would help individual Canadians prominent role in supporting these organizations. and businesses going forward, because through this legislation, we would see new regulations to protect our interests. Would he not see that as a very strong positive for all of us? Under the CPPA, businesses would be able to approach the Pri‐ Mr. Gary Anandasangaree: Mr. Speaker, every candidate who vacy Commissioner for a no-risk review of their privacy manage‐ puts forward their name signs a declaration with Elections Canada ment program and help them comply with the law. The commis‐ about privacy and on the information that we receive from Elec‐ sioner could also ask to review their business programs, without us‐ tions Canada, and so I think that there are mechanisms in place ing what he finds in an enforcement action. This is a very important with Elections Canada to address some of the privacy concerns. step in early correction of problems. Under the current privacy regime, companies subject to the law are already required to estab‐ Obviously, with respect to this particular piece of legislation, I do lish a privacy management program, which would be maintained in want to reiterate the enforcement mechanism, which is critical, but the CPPA. enforcement sometimes is inaccessible to the average Canadian. I believe that the tribunal process that is set up here would allow in‐ dividual Canadians to access some closure and support for chal‐ lenges that they may have with a breach of privacy. Privacy management programs can cover a wide range of issues, such as how companies handle service providers or third parties Mr. Taylor Bachrach (Skeena—Bulkley Valley, NDP): Mr. that support their businesses, how they respond to security breach‐ Speaker, it is an interesting point that was raised about Elections es, privacy risks assessments, mitigation measures undertaken, and Canada. so on. I believe that Elections Canada has strong rules around the use of the voters list, but, of course, political parties collect personal infor‐ mation using so many other means. It is the regulation of that other However, what is new is enabling the Privacy Commissioner to information that is particularly germane and could be covered un‐ have a look at these policies and practices outside of an investiga‐ der this piece of legislation, which is something that we have been tion. This would provide a safe space in which the commissioner pushing for. could provide advice and companies could quickly take action. At the same time, the commissioner would benefit from examples of Could the member comment on the omission of any treatment of the challenges organizations are facing and their needs in the priva‐ that kind of information? cy space. Mr. Gary Anandasangaree: Mr. Speaker, I believe these are the types of questions that ought to be brought up at committee, and I do think that it is a valid concern. Again, back to Elections Canada, We know Canadian companies, especially smaller ones and those when we look at the governance of political parties, at third party starting out, will be very interested in these changes. 2314 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders The CPPA would also recognize not all organizations are the nal to the Privacy Commissioner’s office, would be introduced pri‐ same. Some deal with minimal amounts of personal information, or to issuing orders. Once the inquiry is over, the commissioner and for others it is central to their business model. Therefore, the would issue his findings and decisions and may make orders to an CPPA would allow organizations to develop their programs accord‐ organization to change its practices to bring it into compliance. ing to the volume and sensitivity of the personal information they handle, as well as a company’s revenues. The Privacy Commissioner has had a long-standing role in un‐ dertaking research and publishing guidance. The Minister of Inno‐ The Privacy Commissioner may also recommend administrative vation, Science and Industry has also long had the ability to ask the monetary penalties, or AMPs, to a new tribunal for certain contra‐ commissioner to conduct research on privacy issues. This ability ventions of the CPPA. The personal information and data protection would remain in the CPPA. However, the minister would now be tribunal would hear any appeals of the commissioner’s decision able to ask the commissioner to conduct research into the imple‐ and, if required, would decide whether to issue an AMP and, if so, mentation or operation of the act. This would help the government the amount. know how well the law is functioning. The Privacy Commissioner has prepared a lot of guidance mate‐ rials over the years. We support this vital role. We want to reinforce In our consultations, many industry stakeholders expressed con‐ a long-standing practice of the Privacy Commissioner to consult cern over AMPs, which have the potential to significantly affect an with stakeholders in guidance development. This practice would organization’s bottom line and even put smaller companies out of now exist in law so that guidance can be informed by what is hap‐ business altogether. By introducing an inquiry phase before issuing pening on the ground. orders, and by separating the imposition of AMPs from the com‐ The Privacy Commissioner would also consult with government missioner’s other responsibilities, the CPPA would support addi‐ institutions where relevant. There may be times when government tional due diligence in decisions to impose AMPs. policy may be implicated, such as with trade policies or public health.

These past months have shown us how vital it is for federal orga‐ We anticipate that some organizations will challenge the com‐ nizations to have a unified response on our most pressing chal‐ missioner’s orders and recommendations. We do not wish to burden lenges. By legislating, we are providing certainty to Canadians that the courts. This is another reason for introducing a new tribunal. It guidance has been discussed with those on the ground. is intended to be less formal than the court and ease access to jus‐ tice for organizations and individuals. After the tribunal issues a de‐ I have stated how the bill would ensure organizations build pri‐ cision, if an organization or individual wants to, they could proceed vacy considerations from the start. Working with organizations and to federal court and request judicial review. giving guidance individually is a fundamental role of the Privacy Commissioner. We want to avoid any problems, but there will be organizations that do not get things right.

● (1330) As my colleagues can see, overall this is a very balanced and The law provides individuals with the right to challenge an orga‐ phased approach. The CPPA would place strong emphasis on nization’s compliance with the law, and it allows them to file com‐ proactive compliance activities, such as reviews of the privacy plaints with the Privacy Commissioner. This is an important exer‐ management programs, guidance development and consultation. cise of their privacy rights, and the Privacy Commissioner retains When there are possible contraventions, the goal is resolution. If his ability to initiate a complaint investigation where there are rea‐ that cannot be achieved, matters would become more formal. This sonable grounds to do so. The CPPA would also encourage the res‐ graduated approach to enforcement is built on the foundations of olution of problems as early in the process as possible, and the bill fairness, transparency and meaningful opportunities on all sides to would provide for dispute resolution. achieve compliance, which is what we know Canadians want. Compliance agreements, a new tool introduced under PIPEDA, would remain in the CPPA. Companies are encouraged to come to the table to work out an agreement with the commissioner, without Many have said that Canada’s private sector privacy law needs resorting to more formal measures such as orders. If no resolution more teeth. The digital charter implementation act, 2020, would is possible under PIPEDA, the commissioner would make recom‐ give it that, and it would do it in a way that organizations that want mendations at the end of an investigation and the matter may go to to do the right thing have the incentive to do so from the start. court. The court would then start again, with a new proceeding, and maybe it would issue an order. Few cases have gone that route, however. Under the CPPA, the commissioner would be able to issue orders I am thankful for the opportunity to speak about how this impor‐ as well. To ensure fairness, a new process, called an inquiry, inter‐ tant bill works to address Canadians' concerns in a measured way. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2315

Government Orders ● (1335) Mr. James Cumming (Edmonton Centre, CPC): Mr. Speaker, Mr. Gary Anandasangaree (Parliamentary Secretary to the it is a great opportunity to rise today to speak to Bill C-11. Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to speak to my friend about the enforcement mechanisms. What are the major aspects of them that would allow individual consumers to get results through a complaint process? We are surrounded by data that seems to be out of control, lost Mr. Majid Jowhari: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I want to thank the by corporations, sometimes stolen from governments. Data that we member for sharing his time with me and for his great intervention voluntarily give up about ourselves is being collected billions of earlier. bytes at a colossal rate. It has a tremendous impact on our privacy I noticed the member talked extensively about enforcement. He and what is being calculated or inferred about us in our daily lives, highlighted that the legislation would provide administrative mone‐ such if we have a good credit rating, or if we can buy a car or when tary penalties of up to 3% of global revenue or $10 million for non- we go for drinks with a colleague. All of this is very much apparent compliant organizations. Also, it contains an expanded range of of‐ today, particularly during this health crisis when people are defi‐ fences for certain serious contraventions of the law, subject to the nitely at home and using the Internet to a greater extent. maximum of 5% of global revenue or $25 million. These are some of the enforcement mechanisms that will be ac‐ cessible once the process has been completed. Everything we do today has some impact on data. Whether we ● (1340) take an Uber or order a meal, that data is collected. Quite frankly, Mr. James Cumming (Edmonton Centre, CPC): Mr. Speaker, we need to ensure people's privacy is protected. does the member believe there has been adequate consultation re‐ garding this legislation, particularly with the provinces that have their own privacy acts covered under PIPEDA? Mr. Majid Jowhari: Mr. Speaker, I believe that yes, there has been sufficient consultation. The genesis of the bill goes back to Why does privacy matter? It is a question that has arisen in the 2000, and through the progress of time, there have been a number context of this global debate, made worse by this pandemic, where of consultations, in 2017 and 2019. millions around the world have come to rely on computers to carry out a function for their very lives. When we hear arguments about As the member is quite aware, a number of provinces have legis‐ Internet privacy. A lot of what we hear about this mass surveillance lation equivalent to PIPEDA or the CPPA. The most important is that there is no real harm due to this large-scale invasion, that thing is that all levels of government are working together to ensure people have nothing to hide. Those engaging in bad acts have a rea‐ that the privacy of individuals' personal information is protected. son to want to hide and care about their privacy. [Translation] Mr. Denis Trudel (Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speak‐ er, I will ask the same question I previously asked another hon. member. It is about data security. This is presupposed on the assumption that there are good and bad people in the world. Bad people who plot to take down govern‐ The bill targets private companies. With the CERB, we recently ments and plan public attacks are the people who have reason to saw that hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people were victims of care about their privacy. By contrast, there are good people, people fraud. When they receive their notice of assessment in April or who go to work, pay taxes, care for their children and use the Inter‐ May, they will learn that they owe money because they did not net, not to plot civil destruction but to read the news and find qualify for the CERB and collected it illegally. recipes. These people are doing nothing wrong and have no reason If the government is working on cleaning up privacy laws in the to hide. private sector, why not put its own data protection system in order? [English] Mr. Majid Jowhari: Mr. Speaker, this is a very important ques‐ tion for many Canadians, as news continuously provides updates on In a 2009 interview of the long-time CEO of Google, Eric non-compliance. There are a number of individuals who are non- Schmidt, when asked about the different ways his company was compliant. causing the invasion of privacy for hundreds of millions of people around the world, he said, “If you have something that you don't I believe the initial rollout of the program was related to data that want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first needed privacy protection from various government levels. This is place.” There are many issues with this statement, one being that a great opportunity for us to explore other dimensions of govern‐ this is the very Eric Schmidt who blocked his employees at Google ment bodies that are dealing with the privacy of information and from speaking with the online Internet magazine CNET after it how they will manage it. I am looking forward to hearing testimony published an article full of personal private information, which was about this at committee. obtained exclusively through Google search and Google products. 2316 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders A few short decades of the Internet, once held as an unparalleled right of action that will allow individuals to seek damages for loss tool of democracy liberalization, have been converted into an un‐ or injury suffered through privacy violations. paralleled zone of mass indiscriminate collection. Enter 2018, when the EU has set the global standard for privacy regulation with the flagship general data protection regulations, known as GDPR, sig‐ There are new standards of consent. This has been a big issue for nalling to Canada that our 1990s era of the Personal Information individuals. How many people have signed up to a site, with three Protection and Electronic Documents Act did not have the teeth to pages of disclosure to which they are supposed to consent? I would take on big tech. argue that very few people will actually read that kind of detail. Bill C-11 would bring in additional privacy regulations. Replac‐ Therefore, there is an attempt within the legislation to use clear lan‐ ing PIPEDA with CCPA would provide an opportunity for greater guage and simplified consent. Given the depth of the legislation, detail within the law rather than just relying on the interpretations that may be a difficult thing to achieve, but is a worthwhile goal. of the Privacy Commissioner. This is a good thing.

The structure will include a personal information and data pro‐ Deceptive practices to obtain consent with false or misleading in‐ tection tribunal that will play a key enforcement role by reviewing formation renders the consent invalid and individuals can withdraw all commissioner decisions and issue penalties for non-compliance. their consent at any time. There is the question of whether people There will be an expert tribunal composed of three to six members, are providing consent for multiple activities or just an individual but interestingly enough it says there may be only one expert, activity. That should be clarified. which may be a deficiency in the act. What are these new privacy rights? One is data mobility. Subject to regulations, on the request of an individual, an organization The realm of data is largely uncharted territory and we find our‐ must, as soon as feasible, disclose the personal information that is selves asking the question of who owns our data. Our opinion is collected from an individual and to an organization designated by that people own their data and they should own their data. the individual. Data mobility is a fact of life and this is a good thing. What format that data will be transferred in will need to be discussed. The word “consent” is mentioned 108 times in the GDPR. In the On algorithmic transparency, if the organization has used an au‐ first reading of Bill C-11, it was mentioned 118 times. This sounds tomated decision process to make a prediction or recommendation, great. Who could possibly be against the consent of data? Challeng‐ then the organization must, on the request of an individual, provide ing consent seems counterintuitive in the world of privacy because an explanation of the prediction, recommendation or decision and it is so linked to us and our autonomy. However, it is both impracti‐ the personal information that was used to make the prediction. It cal and undesirable and serves to explain why our privacy law is in seems like a reasonable intent and is something it should be able to such a sorry state. It is imperative the legislation is written with as do without giving up the code. little room for interpretation as possible. ● (1345) With respect to de-identification, the bill states: There are some standards within that bill. It states: An organization that de-identifies personal information must ensure that any technical and administrative measures applied to the information are proportionate to the purpose for which the information is de-identified... An organization may collect or use an individual’s personal information without their knowledge or consent if the collection or use is made for a business activity Then there is the new enforcement. The Privacy Commissioner described in subsection (2)... of Canada will have the order-making power that will enable the of‐ fice to order compliance with the law and recommend significant penalties. Under that subsection, it states: I should mention I will be sharing my time with the member for Calgary Centre. (a) a reasonable person would expect such a collection or use for that activity; and In some cases, the recommended penalties are the highest in the G7, so they are significant. The expanded range of offences for contraventions of the law are a maximum fine of 5% for a global (b) the personal information is not collected or used for the purpose of influenc‐ revenue of $25 million. There are administrative penalties as well. ing the individual’s behaviour or decisions. One of the issues I see with this is that the legislation and penal‐ ties invoke fear, but there will be a question of whether there is ade‐ quate teeth for enforcement. The issue is this. If that is subject to interpretation, we could have a pretty broad interpretation of what it says. Hopefully this The law includes whistleblowing provisions that protect those act, with the regulations that follow, will clearly define what is in who have disclosed alleged privacy non-compliance and a private and what is out. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2317

Statements by Members At the end of the day, if we are using services, many services are holders, industry leaders and even our standing committee, which disrupting, shaping and helping our lives in ways we could not have has also incorporated many thoughts within the legislation. possibly imagined mere decades ago. Whether we like it or not, it is big tech that has provided these realities for us and the government should, as with any other key stakeholder, create meaningful, effec‐ I have heard that in the last two years information on the Internet tive and collaborative policy but require consultation. It is one thing has almost doubled. We can only imagine what it will be two or to consult in front, but now that we have legislation, we need to en‐ three years from now. This type of legislation is badly needed and it sure we get it right. We need to ensure that industry, particularly is a good starting point at the very least. Would the member not small businesses, remain competitive. The bill is being sent for re‐ agree? view to the privacy and ethics committee. There is a strong argu‐ ment that industry committee should have a look at this bill as well. Mr. James Cumming: Mr. Speaker, absolutely, it is valuable, but it really raises the question about why the Liberals would pro‐ Therefore, proper consultation must happen. There is nothing rogue Parliament. Why would we not get on with these things? This wrong with doing that. I hope the government will ensure the bill is is the kind of legislation that has been delayed. The government has properly consulted on. been studying it. It is one thing to take consultation before develop‐ ● (1350) ing legislation, but it one's interpretation of what was heard from the consultation. Until we actually hear from people on what they Mr. Gary Anandasangaree (Parliamentary Secretary to the think, now that they see this legislation in writing, we cannot neces‐ Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I sarily determine if it will get to the goals to which we aspire. want to pick up on the issue of enforcement. Could the member talk to us about the elements of the bill that are critically focused on en‐ forcement and what, if any, changes could we look at to strengthen Mr. Garnett Genuis: Mr. Speaker, another concern I hear from it? It is a very strong starting point, one that will make complaints Canadians is about threats to their privacy from foreign actors, per‐ accessible to the average consumer. I would like my friend's com‐ haps foreign state actors, and the need for the government to re‐ ments on that. spond to that threat. Mr. James Cumming: Mr. Speaker, what is in the act, with the increased fines, certainly provides somewhat of a deterrent. People Does the member have a comment on how the legislation would are going to look at those fines. Then it becomes the reality of how impact concerns about foreign threats to our privacy? do we ensure we enforce those fines. This is a new system with this tribunal. It looks like there is the potential for it to have more lay Mr. James Cumming: Mr. Speaker, there are no specifics in this persons on it than actual experts in the field, which concerns me. I particular act that would deal with that directly. That is all the more am concerned that this is the fear of enforcement to try and derive reason this particular piece of legislation needs more study. the result needed. There have to be adequate provisions within this act to ensure bad players are held accountable.

● (1355) Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS CPC): Mr. Speaker, the regulation-making power we give the gov‐ ernment through legislation, in some sense, requires us to trust the [English] government to put those regulations in place in a way that respects the public interest. The challenge we have when it comes to privacy is the that government does not have a great track record with re‐ UIGHUR MUSLIMS IN CHINA spect to its own actions and its respect for privacy. This raises some concerns about whether we trust the government to enact these reg‐ Ms. (Don Valley East, Ind.): Mr. Speaker, I ulations in an effective way and properly enforce them. wish to raise the plight of over three million Uighurs and other Tur‐ kic Muslims who are interned in concentration camps in the Xin‐ Does the member have further comments on that? jiang Uighur Autonomous Region of China. The Chinese govern‐ Mr. James Cumming: Mr. Speaker, I have the same concerns. ment continues to subject them and other Turkic Muslims to forced The track record is not there with the government as it relates to labour, physical and psychological torture, and forced organ har‐ privacy. We have seen this in a variety of different areas where it vesting. Uighur women suffer forcible sterilization. has not taken this sort of thing serious. That is all the more reason the bill needs significant review to ensure we get it right. The Chinese government's method of political and anti-religious Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ indoctrination, destruction of cultural sites and forcing Uighurs to dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ denounce themselves as Muslims is akin to cultural genocide. I call er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. on all our allies and partners to demand the closure of the concen‐ Speaker, on that particular point, I would remind the member oppo‐ tration camps and the release of all detainees. I urge the passage of site that the legislation before us today went through a lengthy pro‐ Bill S-204, which would criminalize organ trafficking and make it a cess of having all forms of consultations with many different stake‐ punishable offence for Canadians to partake in transplant tourism. 2318 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Statements by Members ● (1400) homes to at least 12 individuals with moderate to severe brain in‐ YOUTH LEADERSHIP jury. Mr. (Guelph, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the world grapples with the unprecedented challenges posed by COVID-19, As we know, Canada's new rapid housing initiative will keep young people are demonstrating their continued leadership. some of Canada's most vulnerable people and families safe, includ‐ ing many in Sudbury. That is why we will continue making these In my riding, one of those leaders is Owen Durk. He is a grade historic investments in affordable housing across the country. seven student from Sir Isaac Brock Public School who safely orga‐ nized a neighbourhood food drive this past week in support of the Guelph Food Bank. In just one day, Owen and his family collected * * * over 325 pounds of food that will help people in our community to [Translation] overcome hunger during this holiday season.

I want to thank Owen for the care and kindness he has shown for TWELVE DAYS OF ACTION TO END VIOLENCE others. I encourage all Canadians who can to support their local AGAINST WOMEN food banks. I congratulate Owen and ask him to keep up the great work. Ms. Andréanne Larouche (Shefford, BQ): Mr. Speaker, from * * * tomorrow until December 6, we will be observing the 12 days of action to end violence against women. This year, the campaign is EDWARD HUMENIUK running against the backdrop of the pandemic. Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to remember Edward Humeniuk. The lockdown has made things even more difficult for victims of Edward was a true pioneer of the Alberta oil sands. As an inven‐ domestic violence, and the Fédération des maisons d'hébergement tor, Edward played a significant role in developing state-of-the-art pour femmes, which represents women's shelters across Quebec, technology crucial to separating waste from bitumen. This technol‐ has launched an appeal aimed directly at men. The Fédération is ogy has helped shape the oil sands refining process, and this pro‐ urging men to speak out if they witness violence happening in the cess is still utilized today. workplace, to a friend or family member, or in public, or if they witness unacceptable behaviour such as sexist or violent jokes. Alberta oil sands are the cornerstone of the Canadian economy. Every year, they generates billions in revenue for the government and create tens of thousands of jobs across our country. The oil pro‐ Men are also encouraged to sign an online pledge to end violence duced is used to heat our homes, power our cars and create prod‐ against women and to share the campaign handouts challenging ucts we use every single day. other men to get involved. Like many others of his generation, Edward Humeniuk's work was an integral part of getting our province and our country to Manon Monastesse, the director of the Fédération, said, “It is im‐ where it is today. portant for men to get involved. We will never be able to end vio‐ lence against women without men. They need to model good be‐ * * * haviour for young men.” [Translation] SUDBURY I encourage everyone to don a white ribbon, the universal sym‐ Mr. (Sudbury, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, all Canadi‐ bol for this campaign, because everyone needs to know that vio‐ ans, including my constituents in Sudbury, deserve a safe and af‐ lence may not always leave a mark, but it always hurts. Now is the fordable home. That is why the Government of Canada is working time to act. with the City of Greater Sudbury to redevelop a former Royal Canadian Mounted Police detachment into affordable housing. * * * Yesterday, on behalf of the minister responsible for the Canada [English] Mortgage and Housing Corporation, I joined Brian Bigger, the mayor of Greater Sudbury, to announce that the federal government is spending $566,000 to acquire the building on Sparks Street. The OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY city will build a community housing building with 14 affordable housing units. Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the [English] Prime Minister has embarked on a campaign to reset our economic system. He parrots the language used by global elites, telling Cana‐ Last year, again on behalf of CMHC, I announced a $1.36-mil‐ dians that he needs to use this pandemic in order to build back bet‐ lion investment in the Wade Hampton House in Sudbury. Operated ter. The problem with this radical agenda, however, is that it leaves by March of Dimes Canada, it provides affordable and supportive Canadians in the lurch. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2319

Statements by Members Sadly, the criteria for the Prime Minister's better future is pur‐ ing interest-free loans in the thousands of dollars to the airline in‐ posefully killing off industries that do not resonate with his reimag‐ dustry and that is just not right. ined envisioned world. Supporting the Canadian energy sector will not get him into the suave parties held in Davos or a seat on the UN Security Council, so in his mind the industry is not worth investing I am pleased that the minister indicated that no taxpayer money in. As a proclaimed environmentalist, his anti-energy campaign is will be going to the airline until we receive a commitment around dumbfounding because Canada's oil and gas industry actually has refunds and until we can ensure continued regional connectivity. As some of the highest environmental standards in the world. By re‐ a government, we must protect important industries as well as all stricting Canada's energy he is indirectly boosting production in Canadians and their interests. That is exactly what we shall do. other countries where environmental protections do not exist and where human rights atrocities happen daily. The Prime Minister would rather have unethical blood oil * * * shipped into our country, rather than have ethically produced oil shipped out. If the Prime Minister truly wants to build back better GLOBAL NEXUS FOR PANDEMICS for Canadians, he must change his tune and he must start support‐ ing this local industry. Mr. (Flamborough—Glanbrook, CPC): Mr. * * * Speaker, COVID-19 has opened our eyes to the impact infectious disease can have on our population, society and economy. These ● (1405) diseases pose an existential threat to Canada. IRAN Mr. Ali Ehsassi (Willowdale, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, exactly one year ago, thousands of Iranians exercised their fundamental right to Before COVID-19, there was H1N1, SARS, Norwalk, West Nile, peaceful protest following an abrupt increase in the price of fuel. Ebola, measles and polio all within the last 50 years. Although the These peaceful protests were met by a brutal government crack‐ next biological threat is inevitable, the ability to cause human and down, leading to the death of over 300 innocent civilians and economic devastation is not. For that reason, McMaster University dozens upon dozens of arbitrary arrests. Two months later, Flight recently announced the timely launch of the Global Nexus for Pan‐ 752, carrying 176 passengers and crew, was mercilessly shot down demics and Biological Threats in Hamilton, Ontario. over the skies of Tehran by two missiles fired by the Iranian Revo‐ lutionary Guard Corps. The Global Nexus brings together leaders from a multitude of This abhorrent pattern of behaviour is further reflected in the un‐ disciplines all devoted to one goal: preventing future pandemics just treatment of the iconic Nasrin Sotoudeh, the human rights and mitigating global health threats. Along with the David Braley lawyer, and the horrific execution of Navid Afkari, a 27-year-old Centre for Antibiotic Discovery, the Global Nexus will build on wrestling champion. These atrocities by the Iranian regime should McMaster’s record of being a leader in comprehensive infectious not be ignored. No Iranian deserves to live amidst constant repres‐ disease research. sion day after day, week after week and year after year. For all these reasons, I would like to thank our government for sponsoring a resolution at the United Nations condemning the fla‐ We know the threats and solutions to serious health challenges grant disregard for human rights by the Iranian regime. The interna‐ are often found outside the lab. The work of McMaster’s Global tional community should never look the other way. We must contin‐ Nexus will create a bulwark against future biological threats to pro‐ ue to hold the Iranian government to account and demand that it tect Canada and the world. immediately end terrorizing its own people.

* * * * * * AIRLINE INDUSTRY [Translation] Mr. (Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we know that the pandemic has hit the air in‐ dustry hard and we stand ready to deliver financial assistance and MAX GROS-LOUIS other supports. As the Minister of Transport previously announced, our government is developing a package of assistance to Canadian airlines, airports and the aerospace sector. Mr. Joël Lightbound (Louis-Hébert, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Thursday was the final day of funeral ceremonies in Wendake to However, I have heard from many constituents who have been honour Grand Chief Max Oné Onti Gros-Louis of the Huron-Wen‐ negatively affected by airline refund policies related to COVID. dat Nation. For three days, hundreds of people came to pay their re‐ Many are frustrated that they are stuck with vouchers for trips that spects and honour his memory. I know that there have been many they cannot even take due to COVID. They are essentially provid‐ tributes to him in the House, but I humbly wanted to add my own. 2320 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Statements by Members Since I come from Sainte-Foy and I represent the riding of to work together safely and with understanding. We are still waiting Louis-Hébert, which is part of the Nionwentsïo, the traditional ter‐ for answers, and the minister's lack of leadership is unacceptable ritory of the Huron-Wendat Nation, it is important for me to pay and shameful. one last tribute to this charismatic, rugged man who governed his nation for more than 30 years and helped unite the first nations peo‐ I want to reiterate my support for all fishers in West Nova who ples, whom he spent his whole life proudly and honourably defend‐ are deeply affected by this crisis, and I continue my work to ensure ing both in Quebec and in Canada, as well as on the world stage. that it comes to an end quickly and peacefully. Good luck to all the It is a duty that he always fulfilled with wisdom and simplicity. fishers with their upcoming fishing season, and please stay safe. His life was a shining example, an inspiration to guide others. He was the type of man who had a sense of history and his place in the * * * hereafter. POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION Grand Chief Gros-Louis, tiawenhk. * * * Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker, with COVID-19 rates skyrocketing, the stress on young ● (1410) people and recent graduates is incredible. They lost their summer [English] employment, they have few job options, and those available are of‐ ten low-paying and put them at risk for COVID-19. ISRAEL Hon. (Thornhill, CPC): Mr. Speaker, Canada's am‐ bassador to the United Nations rejected the preamble to the first Recent graduates from the University of Alberta, King's Univer‐ resolution in this year's annual barrage of one-sided, prejudicial, an‐ sity and the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, all post-sec‐ ti-Israel resolutions sponsored by countries properly characterized ondary institutions in my riding, are struggling to get by. By rush‐ as jackals of the world's body, but directed by the Liberal govern‐ ing to give almost $1 billion that was supposed to go to students to ment, he voted for it. their well-connected friends, the Liberal government has left stu‐ dents and recent graduates in the lurch. Canada's leading Jewish organizations had pleaded before the vote to withhold support for regimes focused not on peaceful pur‐ At the urging of the NDP, the government implemented a mora‐ suit of a two-state solution but on demonizing and delegitimizing torium on student loan repayments in the spring to give some relief the state of Israel. to recent graduates. However, as of September 30, the student loan The Deputy Prime Minister tried to justify the vote, proclaiming moratorium ended, despite Canada's descent into a second wave. “Canada will always stand with Israel,” but she also suggested Extending the interest-free moratorium on student loan repayments obliquely that Canada's side-taking was really a vote against pop‐ could make the difference recent graduates need to get through the ulism, authoritarianism and rights abuse. winter. Canadians can count on New Democrats to fight for young people, pausing loan payments and getting rid of interest on student Really? Canada broke with long-standing policy again to vote loans altogether. against Israel and support a resolution sponsored by Venezuela, Syria and North Korea. * * * * * * [Translation] LOBSTER FISHERY INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the small, beautiful fishing villages that dot West Nova from Lower Mr. (La Prairie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, today the East Pubnico to Digby are getting ready to head back to the sea for appeal court began hearing the challenge to Quebec's Bill 99 on its the all-important District 34 lobster season. right to self-determination. When bigger boats are tying up for the winter, Canada's most im‐ portant fishery gets under way. Fishers have worked hard to pro‐ The Bloc Québécois would like to reiterate that the Quebec peo‐ vide a moderate living for their families, and they once again brave ple have an inalienable right to self-determination. We want to reit‐ the cold, and sometimes angry, north Atlantic. erate that democracy means 50% of the votes plus one vote. We To add to the normal anxiety that a new season brings, these fish‐ want to reiterate that the Quebec people are the only masters of ers find themselves in the middle of a fishing crisis created by the their future, which will be decided in the National Assembly and Minister of Fisheries and Oceans' inaction. The crisis has taken dis‐ not here. We strongly condemn the federal government's participa‐ proportionate turns. Violence took the dialogue space and is still a tion in this attack on Quebeckers' freedom of choice. We denounce constant threat between commercial and indigenous fishers. the Government of Canada for participating in a course of action that is tantamount to authoritarianism. We denounce the fact that, I flagged this very important and sensitive issue to the minister once again, Ottawa is using Quebec taxpayers' money to fund its months ago, so commercial and indigenous fishers could continue bid to violate their rights. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2321

Oral Questions I will close by quoting staunch federalist Robert Bourassa, who This month I had the pleasure of meeting Raina, a young Orleans said that no matter what anyone says or does, Quebec is and always constituent with type 1 diabetes, and the delegate for JDRF. I was will be a distinct and free society capable of taking charge of its quite impressed with her presentation as part of JDRF's awareness own destiny. campaign, and I congratulate her for her commitment to helping those suffering from juvenile diabetes. * * * ● (1415) [English] As co-chair of the all-party caucus on juvenile diabetes, I support the work of JDRF Canada in partnership with CIHR. Their profes‐ INDIGENOUS AFFAIRS sionalism and stewardship led to many advancements, giving Cana‐ Mrs. Cathy McLeod (Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, dians living with type 1 diabetes a better quality of life. CPC): Mr. Speaker, history will judge the Prime Minister on his treatment of both female cabinet ministers and MPs during his tenure. It is easy to say the right words and throw the feminism la‐ This year, as we celebrate 100 years of insulin, thanks to Canadi‐ bel around, but it is actions that tell the story. an scientists Banting and Best, we are reminded that insulin is no cure, and that only by supporting research can we get closer to It is now clear that an internal pattern of behaviour is extending eliminating juvenile diabetes. into the Liberals' approach to governing. Not only did the Liberals ignore the Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs when they negotiated the memorandum of understanding, they completely disregarded the The Speaker: Before moving on, I just want to remind the hon. Wet’suwet’en Matriarchal Coalition. These women simply wanted members that S.O. 31s are 60 seconds long. I noticed they went jobs for their people. They were stripped of their hereditary titles by over, and they are good messages so I did not want to interrupt. Un‐ male chiefs who then gave the titles to men who opposed the fortunately, we do not want to postpone question period because GasLink project. This has forced them to go to the Canadian and everyone is looking forward to it. B.C. human rights tribunals. Disregarding these female leaders is unacceptable and cannot be allowed to stand. It is time for the Prime Minister to walk the talk and stop ignoring those who deserve to be at the negotiating table. ORAL QUESTIONS * * * NATIONAL HOUSING DAY [English] Ms. (Labrador, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this past Sunday marked National Housing Day in Canada, and a time to re‐ flect on where we are in our mission to reduce homelessness and FOREIGN AFFAIRS provide all Canadians with a safe and affordable place to call home.

Our Liberal government has invested across Canada to increase Hon. Erin O'Toole (Leader of the Opposition, CPC): Mr. access and affordability to housing through the recent launch of the Speaker, the government always claims to stand with our long-time billion-dollar rapid housing initiative, the $105 million investment ally Israel, until it matters. Once again the Liberals voted against Is‐ in our reaching home program, the increased funding for on-reserve rael at the United Nations. When asked to explain her vote, the housing, the launch of the first-ever, 10-year Inuit housing invest‐ Deputy Prime Minister compared Israel to authoritarian regimes. ment fund and the increased federal transfers to provinces and terri‐ tories. We have stepped up, and we continue to create solutions to homelessness and housing affordability. Our national housing strat‐ egy is a 10-year plan that helped 530,000 families find safe, afford‐ Will the Prime Minister demand an apology for the Deputy able housing and reduce homelessness. Prime Minister's insult of an ally of Canada? Reducing homelessness and providing Canadians with affordable housing is a priority for our government, and we are going to con‐ ● (1420) tinue to work hard to ensure that every Canadian has a safe and af‐ fordable place to call home. Right Hon. (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speak‐ * * * er, Canada is a strong ally and a close friend of Israel. We are com‐ mitted to the goal of a lasting peace in the Middle East, including DIABETES AWARENESS MONTH the creation of a Palestinian state peacefully side by side with Is‐ Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orléans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, rael. We are consistent with the Canadian position long held by November is Diabetes Awareness Month, and I want to take this governments of all political stripes. Canada's vote was a reflection opportunity to highlight the importance of supporting Canadians of our long-standing commitment to the right of self-determination living with diabetes. for both the Palestinian people and for Israelis. 2322 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Oral Questions Hon. Erin O'Toole (Leader of the Opposition, CPC): Mr. access to millions of doses of the vaccine and we do not know ex‐ Speaker, the Prime Minister is consistent in disappointing our al‐ actly which company will produce which vaccine quickly and most lies. The Liberals voted against Israel, the only democracy in the efficiently. That is why we created one of the best portfolios of po‐ Middle East. Even Michael Levitt, who was a Liberal MP, just tential vaccines in the world. As I said, we will be able to deliver weeks ago criticized the vote and said that it demonizes Israel. vaccines to Canadians in early 2021. Maybe that is why he left this chamber. Now Mr. Levitt's former colleagues are comparing Israel to an authoritarian regime. Hon. Erin O'Toole (Leader of the Opposition, CPC): Mr. Speaker, on September 30, the Prime Minister promised the House Will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to publicly disavow that Canada would be the first country to get a vaccine. the comments from the Deputy Prime Minister? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speak‐ Two months later, he is admitting that he was wrong. He does not er, as a government we have consistently stood up in support of Is‐ have priority access to the vaccine. We are still at the back of the rael, in defence of our friend and ally, and we will continue to. We line. The first Americans will be vaccinated in a few weeks. have stood up consistently against the illegitimate singling-out of Israel through one-sided votes at the United Nations. We have con‐ When will Canadians be able to get vaccinated? tinued to do that, but we also recognize the right of Palestinian self- Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speak‐ determination, which is something we recognized in that recent er, I completely understand why Canadians want to know when the vote, while at the same time oppose the broad efforts to single out vaccines will arrive. and delegitimize Israel. * * * It is because we are all very eager to turn the page on this pan‐ demic. That is why it is so important to keep distancing. That is HEALTH why the federal government is working with the provinces so that Hon. Erin O'Toole (Leader of the Opposition, CPC): Mr. they can impose restrictions that will help flatten the curve, and that Speaker, the Prime Minister told the House that Canadians would is why Canada made sure to secure more vaccines per capita than be the first in line to receive the vaccine. Today, he admitted we are any other country. It is because our government has demonstrated going to be behind many countries, including the United States, the that we are able to manage this pandemic and help Canadians. United Kingdom and Germany. Reuters is even reporting that Mex‐ ● (1425) ico will receive a vaccine before Canadians. Mr. Yves-François Blanchet (Beloeil—Chambly, BQ): Mr. How many more months will it take to flatten the curve because Speaker, none of the Prime Minister's answers to my esteemed col‐ the Prime Minister has been unable to rapidly secure a vaccine? league's questions are even remotely valid. Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speak‐ er, the hon. Leader of the Opposition might not have been follow‐ Allow me to summarize: Canadians and Quebeckers will not be ing this too closely, but Canada is actually being lauded as one of getting the vaccines at the same time as other western powers, peri‐ the countries that has achieved the best and largest portfolio of po‐ od. The health of thousands of people is at stake. Let's face facts: tential vaccines for its citizens. We are not certain yet which vac‐ The longer we wait, the more lives will be at stake. The Prime Min‐ cines from which companies are going to be most effective or are ister is making up excuses for the inexcusable. going to arrive first, so Canada stepped up and has secured millions of doses of vaccines for Canadians that will be arriving in the com‐ Will the Prime Minister fix his mistake and immediately enter in‐ ing months. to negotiations to ensure that Canadians and Quebeckers get the vaccine at the same time as the Germans, the Americans and the We are going to continue to ensure that Canadians get the protec‐ Brits? tion they need so we can get through this pandemic together. Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speak‐ [Translation] er, we knew from the beginning that we would have challenges be‐ Hon. Erin O'Toole (Leader of the Opposition, CPC): Mr. cause, unlike the Germans, the Americans and the Brits, we do not Speaker, for weeks now, the Conservatives have been sounding the have the capacity for mass vaccine production in Canada. alarm that this government sent us to the back of the line for vac‐ cines. Today, the Prime Minister admitted that Canada is behind the We therefore had to secure larger quantities of vaccines than United States, the United Kingdom, Germany and others. those other countries, and that is exactly what we did. We were even criticized by the international media for the quantity of vac‐ How much longer will Canadians have to wait because this slow cines we managed to secure. We have the best portfolio of vaccines government put us at the back of the line? of many countries around the world. Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.): The oppo‐ site is true, Mr. Speaker. We have done our job to ensure that Canadians receive vaccines quickly and with certainty, even in these extremely uncertain Since the beginning, we have been negotiating and signing con‐ times— tracts with a record number of companies that could produce a vac‐ cine, because we know that we need to make sure Canadians have The Speaker: The hon. member for Beloeil—Chambly. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2323

Oral Questions Mr. Yves-François Blanchet (Beloeil—Chambly, BQ): Mr. any of our peer countries around the world. We have done this to Speaker, quantity is not the issue. The issue is when, and when is a ensure that Canadians have access to a vaccine regardless of which major problem. vaccine companies land first or which vaccine companies have the best vaccine. We needed to make sure that Canadians would have By waffling, hinting and leaving things unsaid, the Prime Minis‐ access to these vaccines. That is exactly what we have done. ter is letting us know that Quebeckers and Canadians will have to wait, they will have to be sick, and in some cases, things will get worse. We are working with partners, including the provinces and terri‐ tories, to ensure that vaccine distribution will be rapid and seam‐ He is blaming it on the pharmaceutical industry, but why was less, and as I have said a number of times before, the vaccine will Canada's pharmaceutical industry not in the race? Maybe the Liber‐ be entirely free. als should be asking themselves that question. Who negotiated those bad agreements? Was it the same people * * * who go around thinking they can lecture everyone else, including the provinces? FOREIGN AFFAIRS Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speak‐ er, we are not here to lecture the provinces. We are here to work Hon. Candice Bergen (Portage—Lisgar, CPC): Mr. Speaker, with the provinces. That is why we delivered record amounts of last week the House of Commons passed our Conservative motion PPE and a record number of tests. That is also why we trans‐ asking the government for a robust plan to, among other things, ferred $25 billion to the provinces to help get kids back to school combat Communist China's growing foreign operations here in and ensure a safe reopening. Canada and its increasing intimidation of Canadians. The Liberals We will be there to work closely with the provinces and to help are clearly scared and intimidated by the CCP, and they voted businesses and people as we go through this process. We have a against it. plan and an approach. We have promised to always be there for Canadians. Yesterday when we asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs to say Mr. (Burnaby South, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the if he will respect the democratic will of Parliament, he gave no an‐ number of COVID-19 cases is on the rise. People are worried about swer, so I am going to ask the Prime Minister this: Will he show their families and about their health. The U.S. and England have some intestinal fortitude and, after five years, present a plan to deal announced a plan to distribute a vaccine as early as next week. with the threat of the Chinese Communist Party? Why is the Prime Minister making Canadians wait? What is Canada's game plan? When will Canadians have a vaccine? Hon. François-Philippe Champagne (Minister of Foreign Af‐ fairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, when it comes to foreign policy, there Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speak‐ should be much political debate. I answered, yesterday morning, er, as I said, we have secured access to more vaccines than any oth‐ over two hours of questions, more questions than any minister has er country. ever answered on China. We have the best portfolio of vaccines and we have purchased up to millions and hundreds of millions of doses of potential vaccines. Our policy is very simple: to be firm and smart. That is what we We need to do everything we can to flatten the curve and reduce the have done when it comes to the release of Michael Kovrig and number of cases in order to protect Canadians. Michael Spavor and obtaining consular access to them. That is That is why we are also working to ensure that the provinces what we did, being firm and smart, when it came to Hong Kong have rapid tests, that we have PPE and that Canadians and Canadi‐ and standing up for the freedoms and liberties of the people of an businesses everywhere have the support they need. Hong Kong. If the Leader of the Opposition would speak to them, he would see that Canada was at the forefront of defending the free‐ [English] doms and liberties of the people of Hong Kong. Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Mr. Speaker, COVID-19 cases are on the rise. People across the country are Hon. Candice Bergen (Portage—Lisgar, CPC): Mr. Speaker, afraid. Communities are afraid, communities like Nunavut, where speaking of yesterday, to add insult to injury, the foreign affairs under-resourcing puts people at an extreme risk. The United States minister said that Canadians who feel intimidated or threatened by and England have announced plans to roll out vaccines as early as bad CCP actors should simply call their local police. At the very next week. same time, right now there are 19 public servants working to help What is the plan in Canada? Can the Prime Minister let Canadi‐ get his OECD soft-landing seat, but the Liberals ans know what the plan is? When will Canada receive the vaccine? refuse to put any effort, resources or political capital into protecting Canadians who are threatened by the CCP. ● (1430) Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speak‐ er, as the member opposite well knows, Canada has successfully Why is the Prime Minister so afraid to stand up to the Commu‐ signed contracts to have the best portfolio of potential vaccines of nist government in China? 2324 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Oral Questions Hon. François-Philippe Champagne (Minister of Foreign Af‐ Hon. (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the fairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member should look at the interna‐ member opposite is putting words in my mouth. tional community and see that Canada has been at the forefront of the response when it comes to the Uighurs, when it comes to Hong In fact what I am saying is that Canada is a world leader in vacci‐ Kong, when it comes to standing up. Being firm and smart is what nation, and has delivered massive vaccination campaigns before. Canadians at home want us to do. Building on that expertise and leadership, working with provinces and territories, we are very confident that we will be able to deliver When the member asked about Canadians wanting to lead inter‐ COVID-19 vaccines to Canadians. national organizations, we should all be proud that Canadians are putting themselves forward to lead international organizations. We We have the most diverse portfolio in the world. We have options are doing everything in accordance with Treasury Board guidelines for more per capita than any other country in the world. and in accordance with precedents that have been set by this gov‐ ernment when it wants Canadians to sit on the boards of interna‐ Hon. (Calgary Nose Hill, CPC): Mr. tional organizations. Speaker, Reuters reported today that Mexicans will be vaccinated in December. The Prime Minister cannot give a date for when Hon. Candice Bergen (Portage—Lisgar, CPC): Well, Mr. Canadians will be vaccinated. Speaker, we can see exactly where these Liberals' priorities are and it is to help their friends get soft landings. If the health minister will not answer that question, what about this one? The procurement minister says that Mexicans will be vac‐ When over 300,000 Canadians in Hong Kong were threatened by cinated before Canadians because the health minister cannot get her the Chinese ambassador, the Prime Minister said and did nothing. department together on approvals, but then the Prime Minister is Yesterday, the foreign affairs minister suggested to these Canadians saying that it is actually the procurement minister, because she did at home and abroad that they should listen to themselves and call not negotiate contracts that allowed for domestic manufacturing ca‐ their local police. Not only is this outrageous, it is cowardly. pacity. Instead of assigning 19 bureaucrats to work on Bill Morneau's OECD seat, will the Prime Minister get his priorities straight and What is the reason why Mexicans will be vaccinated before take real action to protect Canadians at home and abroad from Canadians? Communist China? Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, all Hon. François-Philippe Champagne (Minister of Foreign Af‐ of government is working together, hand in glove, right now to en‐ fairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me set the record straight for Canadi‐ sure that we have access to vaccines for Canada, and in fact our ans who are watching at home. Canada was the first country in the work has proven to be very fruitful. world to suspend its extradition treaty with Hong Kong. That is leadership. That is Canada. That is being firm and smart. That is We have options on seven promising candidates, three of which what Canadians watching at home want from this government and are in regulatory review already as we speak, those three showing from all parliamentarians when it comes to foreign policy. We have tremendous promise in their opportunity to protect people against no lessons to take from the Conservatives. We will be firm and we COVID-19. We are working with provinces and territories on a de‐ will be smart. That is what Canadians expect from us. ployment plan, building on the expertise that Canada already has in vaccinating massive numbers of Canadians every single year. * * * * * * HEALTH [Translation] Hon. Michelle Rempel Garner (Calgary Nose Hill, CPC): Mr. Speaker, based on the Prime Minister's response to the Leader of OFFICIAL LANGUAGES the Opposition, I want to clarify that Mexicans will be getting the COVID vaccine before Canadians. Mr. (La Pointe-de-l'Île, BQ): Mr. Speaker, all parties in the House have recognized that French is in decline in ● (1435) Quebec. Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canada has robust experience in delivering vaccinations and the Now is the time to walk the talk. This morning, the Bloc distinct advantage of a public health care system that builds on Québécois introduced Bill C-254 to apply Bill 101 to federally reg‐ strong provincial and territorial expertise and relationships. ulated businesses. The Government of Quebec, with robust support in the National Assembly, has called for this. We have procured a diverse portfolio of vaccines, as the member opposite knows, more per capita than any other country. Canada is Now that the government admits that French is in decline in well positioned to successfully vaccinate Canadians against Quebec, will it listen to Quebec and support our bill? COVID-19. Hon. Mélanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Hon. Michelle Rempel Garner (Calgary Nose Hill, CPC): Mr. Official Languages, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to reassure Speaker, what the minister is saying is that Mexicans will get vacci‐ my colleague that I have been in contact with my Quebec counter‐ nated before Canadians. part, Simon Jolin-Barrette. We spoke recently, actually. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2325

Oral Questions We have been in constant communication because we both want What is stopping the minister from introducing her bill before the to protect French in Quebec, while respecting the English-speaking holidays? minority. As a result, our government will respect Quebec's juris‐ dictions, in addition to our own, because we also want to protect the Hon. Mélanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and one million French-speaking people outside Quebec. Official Languages, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, committees are indepen‐ dent. I encourage my colleagues who sit on the committee to con‐ Mr. Mario Beaulieu (La Pointe-de-l'Île, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the tinue to work hard on official languages and their significance. Prime Minister said that he supports Bill 101. Now he must prove it. This is not the first time that the issue of One thing is clear. We have a common desire to do more for the applying Bill 101 to federally regulated businesses has come up. French language. We really need to be able to look at what we can Quebec has been calling for this for a long time, as its current gov‐ do to mitigate the linguistic insecurity that we are seeing in our ernment is doing. We told everyone that we were going to introduce country and to ensure that we are able to talk to each other in our a bill to address this issue. beautiful French language today and for generations to come. Will the government stop dithering and tell us, yes or no, if it I will be pleased to work on modernizing the Official Languages will support our bill? Act. Hon. Mélanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Mr. (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): Mr. Speak‐ Official Languages, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is a wonder why the er, in fact, the Liberals have been blocking the work of the commit‐ Bloc Québécois is looking for a fight at any cost when the fact is tee for weeks, and we have been waiting for years for a law to mod‐ that we agree on protecting the French language. We want to work ernize the Official Languages Act. Could the truth be that, much together to do just that. like the member for Saint-Laurent and the Quebec president of the , the Liberals do not believe that the decline I am saying to my colleagues that we should work together. We of French in Quebec and elsewhere in the country is real? are reaching out. Let us ensure that the importance of French is rec‐ ognized in Quebec. If such is not the case, can the minister tell us why the govern‐ Mr. (Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC): Mr. ment does not support the Government of Quebec's desire to apply Speaker, the Minister of Official Languages would like Canadians Bill 101 to federally regulated businesses? to believe that the French language is important. Hon. Mélanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Can she explain why her Liberal colleagues are obstructing and Official Languages, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind my paralyzing the Standing Committee on Official Languages? This colleague that one is either for or against a strong francophonie in has prevented us from introducing a motion calling on the minister Canada. It would be inconceivable to look at Quebec alone without to introduce her bill on the modernization of the Official Languages looking at all francophones across the country. We cannot say one Act before Christmas. thing to Quebeckers and the opposite to everyone outside Quebec. I am tired of hearing the Conservatives' double-talk. Does this mean that the bill is not yet ready even though they promised it five years ago? What are they doing not only to protect the French language and ● (1440) recognize the decline of French in , but also to protect Hon. Mélanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Campus Saint-Jean in Alberta? Official Languages, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind my Mr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): Mr. Speak‐ colleague of certain facts. I believe that my colleague is new to the er, the minister continues to wave her arms in the air and lecture ev‐ official languages file and has just demonstrated a certain interest in eryone. the issue. For the first time ever, we recognized the need to protect the I sent her a letter talking about the urgent need for action to mod‐ French language in the throne speech because French is a minority ernize the Official Languages Act. That is what all the representa‐ language in Canada. We are also the first government to recognize tives of organizations across the country are asking for, and they that we must do more to protect our French language. want it introduced before the holidays. Consultations have been held. Reports have been submitted and recommendations tabled. In the circumstances, yes, we will modernize the Official Lan‐ guages Act, but we are also waiting with great interest for what the If French is so important to her, can the minister commit to intro‐ Conservatives will do on this file because, quite frankly, they have ducing the bill to modernize the Official Languages Act before no credibility when it comes to protecting the French language. Christmas, as everyone is calling for, yes or no? Mr. Richard Martel (Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC): Mr. Hon. Mélanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Speaker, the work of the Standing Committee on Official Lan‐ Official Languages, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I did receive my col‐ guages has been at a complete standstill for the past five meetings. league's letter. Recently, we were not able to move a motion. We are wasting time with the Liberals. The Senate, the Commissioner of Official Lan‐ It was the first time in five years, since I took over the official guages and the organizations all agree that the Official Languages languages file, that I finally received something ostensibly con‐ Act needs to be reformed. crete. 2326 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Oral Questions That said, I look forward to working with my colleague. We like ing that situation. It has an enviable safety record, and it is review‐ taking a co-operative approach. I have said this to my Bloc ing certain requirements with respect to service needs. Let me just Québécois colleagues and I will say it again to my Conservative be very clear that Transport Canada will work with Nav Canada to colleagues: Let us work together to make sure that we protect the ensure that safety remains uppermost for all Canadians. French language and all linguistic minorities in this country. * * * * * * [English] INTERNATIONAL AID INDIGENOUS AFFAIRS Mr. Taylor Bachrach (Skeena—Bulkley Valley, NDP): Mr. Mr. (Surrey Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, mem‐ Speaker, Max Johnson is an amazing local artist in Bella Bella. bers of the Filipino community in my riding of Surrey Centre and When I first met him two summers ago, he was painting artwork on communities across the country are extremely concerned and wor‐ the front of the new big house in his community. It was heartbreak‐ ried about loved ones after two typhoons hit the Philippines this ing to later hear that he and his granddaughter had been racially month. profiled by BMO staff in Vancouver and had been handcuffed by police for trying to open a bank account. Super typhoon Goni hit the Bicol region in early November, Now we have learned it was Indigenous Services Canada who leaving people dead, injured and displaced. In its wake, Goni was told the bank manager they should call the police. Will this minister followed by typhoon Vamco, whose destructive winds and torren‐ apologize, and inform this House of the steps he has taken to inves‐ tial rainfall triggered extensive flooding in several areas, including tigate this situation and ensure that it never happens again? metro Manila. ● (1445) Hon. (Minister of Indigenous Services, Lib.): Mr. Can the Minister of International Development inform members Speaker, incidents like this should never happen again. The incident of the Filipino community how our government has responded to in question was exceedingly alarming. these tragedies? I would invite the member opposite, and indeed all Canadians, to review the 911 transcript. It is unclear at this time, but if there is Hon. (Minister of International Development, any trace that Indigenous Services Canada, or any part of the Gov‐ Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Surrey ernment of Canada, was involved in that type of advice, as well as Centre for raising this important issue and for his tireless advocacy what information was conveyed when they relayed what was al‐ for the communities in his riding. leged, we will get to it. We will take responsibility for that action, apologize, move forward and ensure that status cards are respected by all Canadians within this country. Our government has responded to both typhoons, Goni and Vam‐ co, through Canada's emergency disaster assistance fund by provid‐ * * * ing the Canadian Red Cross with $240,000 for relief operations and to help meet the emergency health, shelter, water, sanitation and hy‐ AIR TRANSPORTATION giene needs, as well as focusing on disaster risk reduction, commu‐ Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the air‐ nity engagement, protection and gender inclusion services. port in Windsor has become a success story after 20 years of invest‐ ment by the municipality, but now the privatized NAV Canada is threatening the public achievement and safety record by putting When typhoon Vamco hit land almost two weeks later, we quick‐ Windsor in a study to remove the air traffic control tower, making it ly responded with another $40,000 contribution to the International an uncontrolled airport. Federation of the Red Cross's relief operations to help provide— An uncontrolled airport would eliminate commercial passenger air travel and create significant safety problems for cargo and pri‐ The Speaker: The hon. member for Carleton. vate planes due to a complex airspace that has five airports in the area, including public and private, and those of the U.S. National * * * Guard and the U.S. Coast Guard. Will the Minister of Transport stop this nonsense that is threaten‐ COVID-19 EMERGENCY RESPONSE ing jobs, business, investments and public safety? Hon. (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speak‐ Hon. (Carleton, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the Liber‐ er, let me be very clear that there will never be a compromise with als announced a big, new program to supposedly rescue the jobs of the safety of air passengers. employees of large employers. With the relief program, we as‐ sumed they might want to help the airline workers, 20,000 of whom As we know, the number of passengers has dramatically reduced have lost their jobs; the countless hotel workers who no longer have by about 90%, and that includes many fewer aircraft in the air at the a paycheque; or, God forbid, the hundreds of thousands of energy moment. Nav Canada, which is our air traffic controller, is examin‐ workers out west who are now jobless. None of them got help. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2327

Oral Questions Who got the biggest chunk of cash from that program? It was Is it not becoming increasingly clear that the bulk of the cash is consultants and insiders. The firm Lazard Frères & Co. was the going to Liberal cronies and insiders who have stepped in between largest recipient with $3.6 million, and another $22,000 went to the government and Canadians? two former PMO staff. Why is it only Liberal insiders that enrich themselves off these programs? Mr. (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Mr. Sean Fraser (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance and to the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and As‐ Finance and to the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and As‐ sociate Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to sociate Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again, the mem‐ share with the hon. member that the premise underlying his ques‐ ber is putting forward falsehoods in an attempt to spin a political tion is false. In fact, more support has gone to businesses that are narrative that suits his interests, rather than the interests of Canadi‐ keeping workers employed than has gone to help set up the pro‐ ans. The reality is that he says now that he supports some of these grams. programs. At the outset of this pandemic, he said that the Conserva‐ The contracts the member is referring to simply establish the tives would never support big fat government programs to get Crown corporation to administer the program and put integrity Canadians through this pandemic. His leader, more recently, has de‐ measures in place, so that we know the money is going to workers. scribed CERB as being completely messed up. If he does not think this actually benefits Canadians, I would ask him to talk to his members from places such as Orillia, Abbotsford or Sarnia who are still on the payroll today because of the program that is supporting them. The reality is that it is not a leader who waits to find out whether Hon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): Mr. Speaker, it is actu‐ something is popular before he or she decides to support it, it is an ally Liberal middlemen who are getting rich off the program be‐ opportunist. We need more leadership to get us through this pan‐ cause, again, this program, the LEEFF program, has furnished the demic and less political opportunism. largest sum of money to Liberal financial insiders. Now we are starting to get a sense of where all this money is going. We have a $380-billion deficit, but only $175 billion has gone to * * * CERB, wage subsidies and CEBA loans for small businesses. Is it not becoming clear that Liberals saw this pandemic as an opportu‐ FINANCE nity not to save the livelihoods and lives of Canadians, but to enrich Liberal insiders with political influence? ● (1450) Hon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): Mr. Speaker, it really Mr. Sean Fraser (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of says something when the best attribute the member can ascribe to Finance and to the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and As‐ his program administration is that they are big and fat. We want sociate Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that question is programs that are effective in helping Canadians. They want fat for absolutely ridiculous. I remember being on the phone through the their friends, and that is exactly what they have delivered. middle of the night early in the spring talking to workers who did not know where their next paycheque was coming from and busi‐ nesses owners who did not know whether they would be able to keep workers on the payroll. Speaking of the upcoming fiscal update, the finance minister has said that her government will impose limits upon itself to avoid the We have advanced programs such as the wage subsidy. Three brutal external restraints of international capital markets. million Canadians are still going to work as a result of that pro‐ gram. The CERB kept food on the table for nine million Canadians, and the Canada emergency business account has provided direct support to over 700,000 businesses. Will the government tell us exactly what limits it will impose on We are going to continue to listen to Canadians. I would urge the the new debt it is piling on the shoulders of Canadians? member to take part and be helpful in providing advice on the basis of what he is hearing, but if he does not want to, then we will go through this without him. Mr. Sean Fraser (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Hon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): Mr. Speaker, we have, Finance and to the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and As‐ from the very beginning, supported the basic programs to save jobs sociate Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it was Oscar and provide incomes to people for whom lockdowns have cost their Wilde who described a cynic as someone who knows the price of paycheques, but those programs only account for $175 billion of everything and the value of nothing. We value, on this side of the the $380-billion deficit, a deficit which equals $40,000 for the aver‐ House, keeping food on the table for nine million Canadian house‐ age family of four. Nobody knows of a single family that has re‐ holds. We value keeping three million Canadian workers on the ceived $40,000 from this government since the March pandemic payroll. We value supporting over 700,000 Canadian businesses to outbreak. help them keep the lights on. 2328 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Oral Questions I look forward to November 30, when the minister will present our farmers and processors are still waiting on the Liberal govern‐ the fall economic statement to this House to identify for Canadians ment to honour its commitment on trade compensation payments. how we will continue to support them to get them through this pan‐ demic, and ensure that the recovery is inclusive, prosperous and We want the date. When will the compensation be delivered to sustainable for all. Canadian farmers and processors?

* * * Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and [Translation] Agri-Food, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, supply management is very impor‐ tant for agriculture in Canada. It is very important for our rural vi‐ AGRICULTURE AND AGRI-FOOD tality. It is important to protect our family farms. Less than a year Mr. (Berthier—Maskinongé, BQ): Mr. Speaker, ago, 11,000 dairy farmers received $345 million. We will follow our farmers cannot count on the federal government. It promised through on our commitment. them it would protect supply management, but it sacrificed them for three agreements in a row. Then it promised full compensation [Translation] for their losses. The dairy sector got a cheque in 2019, but there has been nothing since. Mr. Bernard Généreux (Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouras‐ ka—Rivière-du-Loup, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I will give the Minis‐ The government is presenting its economic update on Monday. ter of Agriculture another chance to respond to a very simple ques‐ Will it reveal the details of compensation for all supply-managed tion: When will compensation go out to farmers, and particularly producers and for processors? dairy farmers? They have written to us, and I have a Zoom meeting scheduled with them tomorrow evening in the hopes of being able Most importantly, this time will it budget money now for future to give them some good news. years? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and I will give the minister a chance to respond. When will the next Agri-Food, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that we under‐ round of compensation for dairy farmers be paid? I think that is an stand the supply management system very well and that we are pro‐ extremely simple and clear question. tecting it. We protected it from Donald Trump, who wanted to dis‐ mantle it. Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again, I would remind hon. mem‐ In the summer of 2019, we announced $1.75 billion for dairy bers that in July last year we announced $1.75 billion over eight producers. Less than a year ago, we sent $345 million in initial years to our dairy farmers as compensation for the Europe and compensation to 11,000 producers. We will keep our promises. trans-Pacific deals. Mr. Yves Perron (Berthier—Maskinongé, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we want details and a timeline. Farmers cannot count on the federal Less than a year ago we paid the first installment of compensa‐ government. That is why we need to make supply management in‐ tion of $345 million to our 11,000 dairy farmers and I assure the violable so it will never again be used as a bargaining chip for trade House that we will respect our commitment. agreements. Mr. (Lévis—Lotbinière, CPC): Mr. Speaker, The Bloc Québécois introduced a bill to prevent any further at‐ dairy farmers have been anxiously awaiting the money the Liberal tacks on supply management. Today the Union des producteurs government promised them to compensate for the market share agricoles asked all parties to vote in favour of that bill. they lost after free trade agreements were signed with our trade partners. Will the federal government prove its support for supply man‐ agement and support our bill? Will the government act to establish some predictability and do ● (1455) so before December 31, 2020? Can the Minister of Agriculture con‐ Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and firm that? Agri-Food, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again, the supply management sys‐ Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and tem is essential. It is extremely important for the vitality of our re‐ Agri-Food, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I assure you that the supply man‐ gions and our family farms. We stood up for them against Donald agement system and all of our dairy, poultry and egg producers are Trump, who wanted the system dismantled. Less than a year ago, very important to the Canadian economy, to Canada's agriculture we paid the first installment of compensation of $345 million to our sector, to the vitality of our regions and to protecting our family 11,000 producers and we kept going. farms. In fact, we also just protected the supply management system during our negotiations with the United Kingdom. That is why we are protecting the system. That is also why we have committed to compensating our farmers and processors in re‐ [English] sponse to various new agreements. It has been less than a year since Mr. (Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC): we paid out the first round of compensation, and I assure the House Mr. Speaker, after trading away access to Canada's dairy market, that we will keep our promise. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2329

Oral Questions [English] TELECOMMUNICATIONS

HEALTH Mr. (Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, Mr. (Cape Breton—Canso, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, CPC): Mr. Speaker, millions of Canadians do not have access to re‐ Canadians have changed their ways of life to keep each other safe. I liable high-speed Internet. Due to the lack of service, thousands of am especially proud of my constituents in Cape Breton—Canso for residents in Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte cannot work, all their efforts. In , we have seen a surge in cases and learn or connect with loved ones during this pandemic. Rural Cana‐ that is cause for great concern. We need everyone to do their part to dians feel like they are intentionally being left behind. The univer‐ help stop the spread of COVID—19, and downloading the COVID sal broadband fund was announced in March 2019. In June, we Alert app is a great way to do that. Given the increase in cases, I am were promised help was on the way. Finally, 150 days later, appli‐ very pleased the COVID Alert app is available in my home cations are open. province of Nova Scotia.

Could the Minister of Health inform Canadians of the impor‐ How can the residents in my riding be assured this will at long tance of the COVID Alert app and how it will keep us safe? last result in real change for under-serviced communities? ● (1500) Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I Hon. (Minister for Women and Gender thank the member for his great work on the Standing Committee on Equality and Rural Economic Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Health. because of our government's investments, tens of thousands of households over the next month will be connected to this essential The COVID Alert app is indeed an important public health tool service, because of the universal broadband fund and everybody that will help Canadians identify if they have been exposed to who worked so hard to develop the program. Canadians like those COVID—19. Over 5.4 million Canadians have downloaded the app in my hon. colleague's community can reach out to us and can fig‐ to protect themselves, their friends and their families. The app pro‐ ure out which program works best for them. Is it the rapid response tects the privacy of users, but also helps alert users if they have stream? Is it the core stream? Whatever supports they need, we are come into close contact with someone diagnosed with COVID— here to support them. 19. It is an extra layer of protection for users and a way to help our hard-working public health workers across the country. I encourage all Canadians to download the COVID Alert app today. If my colleague wants to reach out to my team, that would be a good first step. We are here to help. * * * IMMIGRATION, REFUGEES AND CITIZENSHIP * * * Ms. (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the immigration minister recently said, “it has never been easier for PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES families to reunite.” Meanwhile, hundreds of families have been unable to reunite since the onset of the pandemic. The Liberals promised these families would be reunited with a new 14-day pro‐ Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, cessing deadline back in October, but hundreds of cases missed that CPC): Mr. Speaker, experts and leaders from the disability commu‐ deadline. nity have been overwhelming in their call for reasonable amend‐ ments to Bill C-7: Leave in place the 10-day waiting period, which Graeme in Calgary is eager to reunite with his American fiancée can already be waived; ensure that people will actually be consulted Courtney. The last time they saw each other was five months ago on the requested date and still be free to withdraw consent and when she gave birth to their son. Apart from a bizarre request to change their minds; and ensure that people do not have death provide proof of their relationship, they have not heard anything in pushed on them by someone else. over a month. Maybe the baby would be proof enough of that rela‐ tionship. I am not sure. These are reasonable modest amendments to support autonomy Why did the Liberals break their promise to separated families? while protecting the vulnerable. Why will the government not sup‐ port these reasonable amendments? Hon. (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, far from breaking that promise, we are living up to it every day, and that includes in meet‐ Hon. (Minister of Justice, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, ing the service standard with regard to reuniting families. We are medical assistance in dying is a complex, difficult issue, and it is prioritizing and accelerating spousal applications. We have allocat‐ deeply personal. Canadians have diverse and evolving views and ed 40,000 spaces under the parent and grandparent program. This is we took care to consult with Canadians across Canada. There were a government that is committed to reuniting families, while at the over 300,000 participants in our online survey as well as round ta‐ same time protecting the health and safety of all Canadians. bles from coast to coast to coast. 2330 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Oral Questions What we heard about the 10-day waiting period was univocal. It INTERNATIONAL TRADE caused suffering in people. It caused people not to take their pain medication in order to be capable of maintaining that final consent. Their decision was made before that 10-day period started, so we Mr. (Nanaimo—Ladysmith, GP): Mr. Speaker, are removing it. both Liberal and Conservative governments have negotiated trade deals that fail to uphold Canadian values and protect Canadian in‐ * * * terests. These deals have deepened our trade relations with anti- [Translation] democratic regimes, with countries where freedom of speech is sti‐ fled and journalists are jailed. We sell arms to countries with hor‐ THE ENVIRONMENT rendous track records on human rights. Ms. (Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, energy efficiency is one of the quickest and cheapest ways of meeting our climate change commitments. Will the government learn from past mistakes, like the disastrous Canada-China FIPA, and prioritize environmental, democratic and It is also an excellent way to reduce energy costs for Canadians. human rights standards in our trade relations? In the 2019 budget, our government invested an addition‐ al $950 million in the green municipal fund, or GMF. Hon. (Minister of Small Business, Export Promo‐ Can the parliamentary secretary tell us how energy efficiency tion and International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we all agree helps our economy, the environment and all Canadians? that trade needs to represent the values and interests of Canadians, Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister and let me be clear about what those values are. We believe human of Natural Resources, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank rights are at the very core of our international policy. We believe the member for Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle for her hard work. the economy and the environment can go hand in hand and are mu‐ tually beneficial. We believe that everyone should benefit from Energy efficiency is a hidden fuel. It is good for the climate, trade, including women, LGBTQ2 businesses and indigenous peo‐ good for the pocketbook and good for job creation. Since the GMF ples. was created 20 years ago, it has provided funding for 1,360 projects and prevented 2.7 megatonnes of greenhouse gas emissions, the equivalent of taking 600,000 cars off the road. Other major efforts I can assure my hon. colleague and all Canadians that our trade are under way to make homes, buildings and industrial processes policy will always be motivated by what is in the interests of Cana‐ more energy efficient. dians. I would like to invite members to read the green municipal fund's annual report and the report to Parliament under the Energy Effi‐ ciency Act for 2018-19, which was tabled in the House. [Translation] * * * The Speaker: That is all the time we have. ● (1505) [English] VETERANS AFFAIRS We have several points of order. We will start with the member for Salaberry—Suroît. Ms. (North Island—Powell River, NDP): Mr. Speaker, Veterans Affairs Canada began calling veterans last week who were eligible for and already receiving the diminished earning capacity determination and telling them that they suddenly were not * * * eligible. Injured veterans rely on this benefit to support their fami‐ POINTS OF ORDER lies, but VAC only gave them days to prove their continued eligibil‐ ity or lose their income. If the government has lost proof of eligibility for any program, STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS that is its problem. Now we are going into the holidays. Can the minister commit to fixing this and not asking our veterans to prove Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Salaberry—Suroît, BQ): Mr. their eligibility again? Speaker, during statements by members, the hon. members for Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs and Orléans and Labrador were not wearing their headsets, which Associate Minister of National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ap‐ meant that the interpretation in French was inadequate. As my par‐ preciate my hon. colleague's question and know that she cares. I ty's whip, I would ask you to remind all hon. members of the im‐ will look into this situation and address it promptly to make sure portance of wearing their headset so that everyone can hear what that the veterans receive the benefits they should receive in a timely parliamentarians are saying here in the House in both official lan‐ manner. That is what we will do. guages. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2331

Oral Questions The Speaker: I would like to remind hon. members that when POINTS OF ORDER they are not in the House, they have to wear the headset with mi‐ crophone issued by the House. It is very important to use it for two ORAL QUESTIONS reasons. The first is so that people in the chamber can hear them. Mr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): Mr. Speak‐ The second is so that the interpreters can properly understand what er, I rise on a point of order. is being said in order to interpret for the people in the House who speak the other official language, whether English or French. I would like to give the Minister of Official Languages the op‐ portunity to retract what she said in answer to my question. She I thank the hon. member for Salaberry—Suroît for her point of misled all parliamentarians and Canadians by insinuating that the order. This is something that is very important and gives us all the Conservatives have not sent any letters over the past five years, same opportunity to do our work. which is completely untrue. * * * The Speaker: I would like to remind members that it is not up [English] the Chair to decide what is true or not true. The Chair's role is pure‐ ly to ensure that the rules are followed. POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION I would ask members who are rising on a point of order to indi‐ Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): Mr. cate which particular Standing Order they believe has been Speaker, I think if you seek it, you will find unanimous support for breached. the following motion. Mr. Gérard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I move: I rise on a point of order.

That the House recognize the significant financial hardship that COVID-19 has I do not know which one it is, but I believe there is a fundamen‐ caused to post-secondary students across Canada and, in an effort to alleviate such hardship, call on the Government to extend the moratorium on repaying student tal Standing Order that requires members to speak the truth. If there loans to cover October 1, 2020 through May 31, 2021. is evidence to the contrary, members must rise and draw the atten‐ tion of the House to the misrepresentation. The Speaker: This being a hybrid sitting of the House, for the sake of clarity, I will only ask for those who are opposed to the re‐ That is exactly what the member for Richmond—Arthabaska quest to express their disagreement. did. The minister made a statement, and the member for Rich‐ mond—Arthabaska said that the minister misrepresented the facts. Accordingly, all those opposed to the hon. member moving the He has compelling evidence. motion please say nay. Hearing no opposition, it is agreed. In this case, it is not a matter of debate; it is a matter of the truth. The House has heard the terms of the motion. All those opposed to the motion will please say nay. The Speaker: I will take that under advisement and come back to the House with a ruling as soon as possible. There being no dissenting voice, I declare the motion carried. I do want to remind members that someone may say something (Motion agree to) with which they do not agree. That is a matter of debate between ● (1510) two people with different perspectives. [Translation] Mr. Alain Rayes: Mr. Speaker, I rise to seek the unanimous con‐ sent of the House to table evidence showing that the Conservative The Speaker: The hon. member for Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie Party has sent a number of letters to the minister regarding im‐ also on a point of order. provements to the Official Languages Act. Mr. : Mr. Speaker, if you seek it, I think The Speaker: This being a hybrid sitting of the House, for the you will find unanimous consent for the following motion: That the sake of clarity, I will only ask for those who are opposed to the re‐ House call on the government to recognize that French is the offi‐ quest to express their disagreement. cial language of Quebec and commit to working with the Govern‐ ment of Quebec to ensure that the Charter of the French Language Accordingly, all those opposed to moving the motion please say is applied to federally regulated businesses operating in Quebec. nay. The Speaker: This being a hybrid sitting of the House, for the Some hon. members: No. sake of clarity, I will only ask for those who are opposed to the re‐ quest to express their disagreement. Mr. Gérard Deltell: Mr. Speaker, with respect to what happened a few minutes ago in the House, you said that it was a matter of de‐ Accordingly, all those opposed to moving the motion please say bate. I want to be very clear with you that this is not a matter of nay. debate, it is a matter of facts. It is not as though the government were claiming that it is good and we were saying that it is bad. That Some hon. members: Nay. would be a matter of debate. 2332 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders The government is stating that there have been no fundamental to make sure that we actually do deal with the issue around Canadi‐ changes with respect to official languages for five years, whereas ans' private information that is provided online, we do need to the member for Richmond—Arthabaska has real, compelling evi‐ make sure that it applies consistently across our country. It is a bub‐ dence showing that certain steps were taken. That is not an opinion, ble created by a bureaucracy, and that bubble is lacking any conse‐ it is a fact. quences for mistakes and those mistakes will happen within the bu‐ reaucracies of the Government of Canada. In essence, from the Facts are facts in the House, and I am again asking for unani‐ Government of Canada's level, everything in this bill shows a com‐ mous consent to table these documents. plete lack of accountability for the government about how it might The Speaker: This being a hybrid sitting of the House, for the misplace or misuse Canadians' data. sake of clarity, I will ask for only those who are opposed to the re‐ quest to express their disagreement. Accordingly, all those opposed to the hon. member's request I recall, years ago, the government's approach to what was the please say nay. no-call list. There was a lot of telemarketing going on at the time and the government came out with a solution. If people registered Some hon. members: No. their phone number it would ensure they did not receive telemarket‐ ing. We all jumped on that because on our land lines at the time we were getting a lot of telemarketing. When that registration came up, GOVERNMENT ORDERS of course my land line was registered and it said to put in my cell‐ phone number too. I put in my cellphone number, and the next day ● (1515) I started receiving telemarketing on my cellphone where I never [English] had before. What apparently happened is the Canadian govern‐ ment's site had been hacked and all that information was sold to DIGITAL CHARTER IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 2020 telemarketers. It is a shame because it got no money for it. My in‐ The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-11, formation was given away for free and a whole bunch of telemar‐ An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act and the Per‐ keters got something from the Government of Canada that was lit‐ sonal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and to make erally stolen from Canadians. Therefore, my data was somebody consequential and related amendments to other Acts, be read the else's, without my consent, as a result of my contribution to the second time and referred to a committee. Government of Canada. Mr. Greg McLean (Calgary Centre, CPC): Mr. Speaker, today, I rise to give my input on Bill C-11, the digital charter implementa‐ tion bill. I am happy to give this input. It is a timely bill for Canadi‐ Consumer pricing protection is something that would fall in the ans because this bill is about access to people's information and, same type of realm. How do we make the Government of Canada more important, how that information is monetized by others. At a accountable for what might happen with the data that we willingly time when big corporations around the world are earning billions of give the Government of Canada? Will there be fines? Do we actual‐ dollars very quickly from information, getting in front of this issue ly tell the Government of Canada that if it does not protect this in‐ right now for Canadians is very important. formation the Canadian government is going to fine the Canadian government and therefore the taxpayers are going to have to con‐ What is being sold? Canadian information is being sold. What do tribute to the government's fining itself? It is a bit of an around-the- Canadians privately own of their own data? This is the question world kind of trip, much like quantitative easing. that should be addressed in this bill. The converse of this, of course, is the targeted marketing and what Canadians get from the fact that they are giving away their information so they are getting back more services that might be tailor-made to them. It is one of those The problem is, who has this information about me? I do not areas where the intent of Canadians not to give away their data and know, but the party I am forced to disclose the most information to, the result of that data that they willingly gave away, in many in‐ that I know about, is the Government of Canada. stances can be very contradictory. Let us tell Canadians first, as my colleague said here earlier, that they are the product. ● (1520) Phones are listening to us. Computers are listening to us. Some‐ times, computers are watching us. Sometimes, when my sons at home have Siri on, they say, “Siri, turn on”. Siri comes on and I tell them, “Siri was listening the whole time because it just turned on Let us discuss how stopping that government body in charge of when you told it to turn on.” A lot of information is being culled. the information I provide is mishandled. That would be the Canada We do not know which of that is resting with us, and which of that Revenue Agency more than anybody else. It has my financial infor‐ is public information to be monetized by somebody else. mation, all kinds of dates and my social insurance number. Frankly, having dealt with it for years, it is a disaster of an organization. It When I read this bill, I saw a bureaucratic solution designed by has the wrong information. It processes information badly. It is the bureaucrats for use by bureaucrats, with what will be minor effect worst organization to try and fix bad information. That is the Cana‐ for the Canadian population in general. As much as we would like dian government. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2333

Government Orders Let us look at what happened in the last handful of months here The information for consent is also required. Forms of consent with the CERB. Data was pilfered and Canadian payments during a are also defined within. The withdrawal of consent is there, as is the pandemic were misdirected. How much of the $400 billion spent is disclosure to cease that actual consent. legitimate and how much is as a result of data hacks that went to the wrong entities? Canadians are paying for these mistakes. Cana‐ dians are paying now and Canadians are going to continue paying Another good thing is there is a period for retention and disposal for generations. of data that we provide organizations. An organization must not re‐ tain personal information for a period longer than necessary. These The legislation looks like it is designed for large organizations. are very good advances in the legislation. I thank the drafters of the Let us start with banks. Banks are another organization that we pro‐ legislation for that. vide a lot of information to and they have a lot of information about us because they handle our financial information. They know how ● (1525) much we are worth, they know how much we have on deposit and they know how much we owe on our mortgages. They are pretty deep as far as what they understand about us. I have questions on some of the other parts of this legislation as well. On the transfer of information to service providers, organiza‐ There are all kinds of small businesses here, as well, that we tions may transfer an individual's information to a service provider need to apply. I want to read from this legislation something that without the client's knowledge or consent. They would still be mon‐ should scare any small business person. This is about privacy man‐ etizing data that gets collected by one retailer or provider and— agement programs as required under this legislation. It states: Every organization must implement a privacy management program that in‐ cludes the organization's policies, practices and procedures The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Unfortu‐ nately, time is up. I have been giving the member a bit of leeway. It further states: the organization must take into account the volume and sensitivity of the person‐ al information under its control. The hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House lead‐ er. What does that mean and how do we interpret that? Further, an organization: Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ must ensure, by contract or otherwise, that the service provider provides sub‐ dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ stantially the same protection er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am encouraged that the Conservative Party has seen the They have to ensure something nebulous is provided by their ser‐ value of the legislation to the extent that it wants the bill to go to vice provider when forwarding information. committee, at which I anticipate amendments will be brought for‐ Let us get on the ground here. Someone can walk into a pharma‐ ward. cy and that pharmacy wants the Alberta health care number, which is private government information. The retailers want that informa‐ Could the member provide further thought about the implications tion so they can continue to track certain things someone does. that have been suggested with respect to the Government of They know how much of a person's spending they have and they Canada. Does he feel there needs to be specific amendments related know how much they can market other products to that person if to the Government of Canada? Does he want the Privacy Commis‐ getting some kind of prescription. Government data is quickly sioner to do more? What specifically is he thinking about? He ref‐ translating over into retail data. That is not exactly something we erenced programs like the CERB and so forth. want to provide.

I will go further here because seniors are the people most affect‐ Mr. Greg McLean: Madam Speaker, there are significant penal‐ ed by this. There are so many seniors who are bearing the brunt of ties in the bill, such as $20-million, $25-million or $30-million the pandemic. There are issues we go through as we age, including fines or 3%, 4% or 5% of global revenue from an organization. financial institutions, insurance companies and all service provides. These are going to be pretty significant organizations if we are talk‐ Many take advantage of seniors in many respects because things ing about global revenue. To this point in time, I have not seen how get very complex. We want to make sure our seniors are taken care the government calculates global revenue, but I am curious. These of in a system that continuously evolves, advances and gets more types of things do not apply to ma and pa shops and people on the complex. That is something this legislation should take care of ground collecting information. It is geared toward large organiza‐ more than anything else. tions. I do not like being just critical. There are also good things in this legislation and I am going to point them out. The purposes of this A question arises from that. We are talking 3% or 5% of global legislation are that an organization must determine: revenue that would flow to the Government of Canada for a trans‐ each of the purposes for which the information is to be collected, used or dis‐ gression as opposed to an individual who lost data. Who still owns closed and record those purposes. the data would be the big question. 2334 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders [Translation] Mr. Greg McLean: Madam Speaker, what I saw in the legisla‐ Mr. Sébastien Lemire (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, BQ): tion did not indicate any penalties to the government for citizens Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the member to present his con‐ whose privacy had been breached. I think for most Canadians, their clusion. I would like to give him that opportunity, so he can tell us number one provision of data is to the government, the party they more about the enforcement powers he would give the Privacy trust the most. That is the party that should probably be the most Commissioner of Canada. liable to Canadians for any breach of data, yet there is nothing in the legislation that says that the government owes this duty of trust Mr. Greg McLean: Madam Speaker, I have no specific recom‐ to Canadians. mendations on that topic at this time. However, I thank my col‐ league from Quebec for his question. [English] Mr. (Parliamentary Secretary to the Min‐ ister of National Revenue, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I will be shar‐ Mr. (Courtenay—Alberni, NDP): Madam Speak‐ ing my time with my colleague, the hon. member for Pontiac. er, I appreciate some of the thoughtful things the member brought forward about small business, but also, like me, he has raised seri‐ ous concerns about big banks and how they have not done their part during the COVID crisis. I am pleased to rise today to speak about the digital charter im‐ plementation act, 2020. The Conservatives, like the New Democrats, have been rightly concerned about privacy, especially when the COVID-19 app rolled out and what it meant for privacy. The Conservatives have asked Digital technology is changing our economy and our society. Da‐ tough questions of government, like we have, that concern privacy ta is now a resource that companies can use to be more productive, remaining ineffective. Could the member talk about how there is no to develop better products and services, which has unleashed a digi‐ need for a trade-off between privacy rights and other priorities? tal revolution around the world and which is even more evident Mr. Greg McLean: Madam Speaker, when we talk about a during this time of COVID-19. trade-off, we talk about enforcement more than anything else. If we think about banks, which people often think about when they come to a conclusion about all the disclosure, particularly financial dis‐ At the same time, the rapid growth of data-driven industries and closure, they have been under compliance regimes for decades. In technologies is opening the doors to the potential of new and inno‐ effect, when we get down to the ground and the people fulfilling vative uses of data to support the public good. Data drives the de‐ those compliance regimes, we find that it gets watered down to the velopment of many of the algorithms and protected models that are point where they do not understand those compliance regimes. key to our understanding of societal challenges. Examples include Therefore, something that happens at a high bureaucratic level the use of data to support sound public health outcomes; enable does not necessarily get translated down to the customer level. Get‐ smart city technologies, such as dynamic traffic management; and ting a real piece of legislation like this down to the level of the promote greater energy efficiency and sustainability through smart clerk and the customer is a monumental task and will not happen grid technologies. overnight. ● (1530) In Canada, public discussions around socially beneficial uses of The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We have data have focused on the emerging concept of the smart city in light time for a brief question. of waterfront Toronto development proposals and other smart city initiatives considered by federal, provincial, territorial and munici‐ The hon. member for Willowdale. pal governments. Mr. Ali Ehsassi (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry (Innovation and Industry), Lib.): Madam Speaker, I was listening very intently and I am grate‐ The COVID-19 pandemic has recentred the discussion on the ful the member has acknowledged that the bill has great improve‐ role of private sector data and innovation in supporting public ments and would allow Canadians to feel more secure. health objectives. We are witnessing the central role that data is When it comes to the role of government, would the member not playing in managing the pandemic. Not only is data critical for agree with me that the Privacy Act does apply to the government tracking current outbreaks or predicting future outbreaks, it has also that may have some information on Canadians? Obviously that been used to inform how our health professionals manage critical regime is robust— supplies and ensure they are deployed where they are most needed. The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Carol Hughes): I do have to allow the member to answer. We are running out of time. When I say a brief question, I would ask members not to provide a While data has proven to be of vital importance, stakeholders speech. have identified the need for greater clarity around the legal frame‐ works governing data sharing between businesses and public sector The hon. member for Calgary Centre, a brief answer, please. institutions in the context of smart cities and public health. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2335

Government Orders [Translation] other public institutions or private organizations with the mandate to carry out a socially beneficial purpose. Many of these public in‐ At the same time, Canadians' concerns over the protection of pri‐ stitutions already have robust data governance systems in place to vacy and democratic responsibility underscore the importance of ensure the integrity of information and protection of privacy and defining the conditions necessary to establish a certain level of con‐ would be ready to take on new responsibilities that would be in the fidence in any new framework. Data sharing can lead to innovative public interest. solutions that benefit society. However, Canadians need assurance that their privacy will be re‐ The framework for socially beneficial purposes would also cover spected and that their data will not be misused. That is why the act situations where different levels of government direct public insti‐ to enact the consumer privacy protection act introduces a clear tutions or certain private sector partners to carry out data initiatives. framework for privacy protection in data sharing for socially bene‐ As highlighted in the reports of our colleagues on the policy impli‐ ficial purposes. cations of connected and automated vehicles, this type of public- Under Bill C-11, organizations will also be obliged to obtain private sharing of information would be critical to ensuring the consent before disclosing personal information to other organiza‐ safety and security of technologies that would bring incredible ben‐ tions. This is in line with the existing act and with most of the legis‐ efits to all Canadians. lation on privacy protection in the private sector. However, in order to support responsible innovation, the bill The approach proposed in the bill would ensure that the law makes one exception that will allow private sector organizations to would be adaptable as new use cases emerge and pave the way for disclose de-identified information to certain types of Canadian pub‐ innovative new uses of data that could provide broad public benefit lic institutions for socially beneficial purposes, without consent. while retaining trust and accountability. This guarantees that businesses will be given the opportunity to participate in public sector initiatives that use data to contribute to the public good. [Translation] In addition, by abiding by this framework, private sector organi‐ zations can take part in these data sharing activities with full confi‐ Canadians can also rest assured that the new act will protect their dence that they are complying with the bill. At the same time, the information before and after they communicate with these institu‐ bill underscores the importance of oversight by democratically re‐ tions. All personal information transferred will first be de-identi‐ sponsible public authorities. fied, which will ensure that privacy is protected in these data shar‐ ing activities. The consumer privacy protection act also contains ● (1535) clear rules that will prevent the identification of this information, as [English] well as severe penalties for organizations that break these rules. As I mentioned, information that is disclosed in this manner would have to be de-identified, ensuring that individuals' privacy is The framework for socially beneficial purposes will allow inno‐ completely protected. What is more, the act would prohibit using vative Canadian businesses and public organizations to take part in that information later to try to reidentify the individual. This prohi‐ resolving the greatest social challenges in areas such as health and bition would be tied to significant fines. environmental protection. This could improve research on the pan‐ demic, enhance environmental sustainability and conservation ef‐ This framework would allow Canadians to participate in initia‐ forts, and make our roads safer for users. tives directed at socially beneficial purposes without compromising their privacy. It would also ensure that Canadians benefit from the full power of data to create better solutions to some of the most These actions will be based on clear democratic responsibility complex policy challenges of our time. and the protection of Canadians' privacy, and will maintain the flex‐ The scope of socially beneficial purposes would focus on areas ibility needed for future innovative uses of data for socially benefi‐ of public interest that provide broad public benefits supported by cial purposes. use cases and lessons learned that have been identified through years of engagement between government, business stakeholders ● (1540) and civil society organizations. For example, ride-sharing and transportation service companies Mr. (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ): Madam Speak‐ could potentially disclose de-identified aggregate data on the move‐ er, I thank my colleague and friend from Vaughan—Woodbridge. I ment of their users to municipal authorities as modelling traffic pat‐ am very happy to see that his French is getting better every month. terns to help improve traffic flow, plan for better public transit ini‐ tiatives and to improve road user safety. Here is the full title of Bill C-11: an act to enact the Consumer The law would set clear parameters on which public institutions Privacy Protection Act and the Personal Information and Data Pro‐ could receive information under the new consent exception, such as tection Tribunal Act and to make consequential and related amend‐ health care bodies, post-secondary institutions, public libraries and ments to other acts. 2336 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders It is a long title, and I would like to ask my colleague a question. whether the hon. member would support an amendment to that ef‐ In connection with this bill, does he think his government needs to fect. take rapid, if not immediate, action to stop fraud and identity theft? Mr. Francesco Sorbara: Madam Speaker, I thank the member ● (1545) for Rivière-des-Mille-Îles for his question. Mr. Francesco Sorbara: Madam Speaker, I hope to see this leg‐ [English] islation brought forth to, I believe, the ethics committee, where it COVID-19 has brought many things to the forefront, and data would be sent from the House and we would see a vigorous debate protection and identity protection are first and foremost. What Bill on the bill. C-11 brings forth is the idea of consent and also the idea of data de‐ struction. If someone is moving their information from one I am very happy that for the first time since 2001, when PIPEDA provider to another, they would be able to indicate to the first was introduced, we are seeing the modernization of our privacy act, provider that they wished to have their data and personal informa‐ if I can use those terms. It is great to see because we know data, tion destroyed so it would not be leaked or hacked. technology and the importance of data have grown exponentially throughout the years and even more so in our daily lives. We need There are several protections built into this. Consent is one of to ensure laws are updated and revamped to protect Canadians. them, and I am happy to see this. I am happy to see the update to a That is what we are doing with Bill C-11. I will be happy to see it number of laws within Bill C-11 for the protection of data and in‐ go to committee, and as a member of that committee I will be in‐ formation for all Canadians from coast to coast to coast. volved in that vigorous debate. Mr. Gord Johns (Courtenay—Alberni, NDP): Madam Speak‐ er, we know that since the government was elected in 2015 tech gi‐ [Translation] ants have tripled their lobbying efforts. Google and Facebook ac‐ count for half of the increase in terms of the lobbying efforts. We know privacy rights are an important part of life, especially in the Mr. William Amos (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister digital age. However, when they are violated, individuals need to be of Innovation, Science and Industry (Science), Lib.): Madam compensated. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to this Bill on con‐ sumer privacy protection. During the government's time in office, there have been many data breaches, including at Equifax. In the United States, victims of The bill, which will replace the Personal Information Protection the Equifax data breach were compensated $425 million as part of and Electronic Documents Act, makes consumer protection a top the settlement. In Canada, for the same breach, consumers were not priority to ensure that Canadians have confidence in the digital awarded anything. marketplace and trust that their personal data will be managed re‐ This bill has no provisions to take notice of settlements in the sponsibly by the private sector. United States to ensure there is parity in the treatment of victims on either side of the border. Should this bill be amended to make sure [English] Canadians are treated equally for the same violation that is happen‐ ing in the United States? It is so important, in an era of global online commerce, for Mr. Francesco Sorbara: Madam Speaker, I hope to see Bill Canada to be putting in place a privacy standard that offers con‐ C-11 come to committee in an appropriate fashion. We are having a sumers increased control over their personal information as they vigorous debate here in the House on the merits of the bill, and participate in the modern digital marketplace. The act also includes when it comes to committee suggestions can be put forward. several important changes to enable and support innovation in an increasingly digital marketplace. What I am very happy to see in the current form of the bill is that we would have some of the highest fines in the G7 under the CPPA, which would be introduced with this bill and ensure organizations I am going to speak today about how our government is support‐ are maintaining and controlling the data of Canadians in an appro‐ ing business and protecting Canadians' privacy as they actively par‐ priate and safe manner. It is great to see the bill has highlighted the ticipate in the digital economy. Our government is working to es‐ fines and penalties that could be instituted on organizations if they tablish an enhanced privacy framework where consumer protection fail to do so. is strengthened and where businesses are supported in their efforts to innovate in a rapidly changing digital landscape. Mr. Paul Manly (Nanaimo—Ladysmith, GP): Madam Speak‐ er, there are much-needed updates to the privacy legislation in this bill. In particular, I like the right to erasure, which would allow Bill C-11 marks all sorts of important changes to the privacy consumers to demand that organizations delete information about framework for Canadians, and it is long overdue. It sets out en‐ them. hanced measures for Canadians to ensure that their personal infor‐ mation is protected, and it establishes new roles and new mecha‐ The Greens believe this privacy legislation should apply to polit‐ nisms for industry in a way that promotes innovation in a digital ical parties, as it does in the B.C. legislation. I am wondering world. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2337

Government Orders [Translation] ● (1550)

We understand the need to ensure that Canadians’ privacy is pro‐ [Translation] tected. We must also ensure that Canadian businesses have access to the support they need to grow and compete in a global market‐ place based on digital technologies and data. The bill before us today includes a new exception to the require‐ ment for consent regarding certain business activities. The objec‐ These changes are taking place at a time of great upheaval, tive is to allow Canadians to give meaningful consent by limiting it namely the rapid evolution of digital technologies. They are also to specific activities that involve real choice. This is essential to taking place at a critical time for businesses, which must adapt and prevent the use of blanket consent and lengthy contracts that—let innovate in a digital world. us be honest—no one reads.

The current pandemic has made digital solutions essential to ev‐ eryday life. At a time when physical distancing is so important, This will also reduce the administrative burden on businesses in consumers want solutions that give them access to the products and cases where an individual’s consent may be less relevant. Let's con‐ services they need. Moreover, companies must continue to do busi‐ sider the example of a third-party service provider that ships vari‐ ness and develop. Digital solutions have helped many of them stay ous goods. The customer wants the goods shipped, and the business afloat. should be able to meet that need. The bill should not add to the bur‐ den of providing that service. However, we all recognize that new technologies provide busi‐ nesses with huge amounts of personal information, the kind of data they need to make business decisions and offer clients new ser‐ [English] vices.

[English] The bill would provide for new regulations to be developed for prescribed business activities and would introduce the concept of We know that innovation and growth are critical, but we have to legitimate interests in Canada's privacy framework. This is some‐ stand up for Canadians and ensure that this innovation in a digital thing that industry has asked for, we have consulted about and the world happens in a responsible way. Today I am going to outline government has answered in Bill C-11. some of the key elements of Bill C-11 that enable responsible inno‐ vation: innovation that is done right in a Canadian way. Second, we are better defining and clarifying how companies are to handle de-identified personal information: personal information One of the goals of our current law, PIPEDA, which Bill C-11 that has been processed and altered to prevent any identification of would supersede, has been ensuring that companies are able to han‐ a particular individual. The bill would allow organizations to de- dle personal information to meet their own legitimate business identify personal information and use it for new research and devel‐ ends. The other is to ensure that companies do this in a privacy-pro‐ opment purposes. Businesses must undertake research and develop‐ tective way. To achieve this dual objective, PIPEDA's framework is ment to improve their products and offer customers the new and principles-based and technology-neutral. The framework ensures leading-edge services they are looking for. This provision would that this law continues to apply, even as technology has undergone give businesses the flexibility they need to use de-identified data rapid change. for these purposes, which would add value for customers and busi‐ nesses alike. Bill C-11, the CPPA, retains this approach, continuing the suc‐ cess of a flexible and adaptive privacy law in the Canadian private sector context, but we have to recognize that “the times they are a- The law would also allow organizations to use data for purposes changin'.” To better reflect the realities of the digital economy, and of serving the public good, specifically by allowing companies to the continued emergence of new big-data technologies and artificial disclose de-identified data to public entities. Such disclosures intelligence, the CPPA would allow for a number of provisions that would only be allowed when the personal information could not be support industry going forward. traced back to particular individuals and when there was a socially beneficial purpose; that is, a purpose related to health, public infras‐ The bill would create a level playing field for companies of all tructure or even environmental protection. This kind of provision sizes by reducing administrative burdens, which is critical for the would protect individuals while ensuring we use all the tools at our vast number of small and medium-sized enterprises in Canada. It disposal to address the biggest challenges of our time. would introduce a new framework for personal information that is de-identified. It would establish new mechanisms, such as codes of practice and certification, with independent oversight by the office Included in the bill is a clear set of parameters for institutions, of the Privacy Commissioner, and it would address data for re‐ such as hospitals, universities and even libraries that would seek to search purposes or purposes deemed to be socially beneficial. receive personal information for a socially beneficial purpose. These parameters would help clarify the rules of the road in new I will outline how the bill would do all this. and important fields. 2338 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders These provisions would also permit organizations to share more My question is a fundamental one, to my mind. Our data and per‐ data in a trustworthy fashion. They would allow the private sector sonal information are invaluable to the web giants. They use this in‐ to work with different levels of government and public institutions formation for marketing and targeted advertising. They use it to di‐ to carry out data-based initiatives in a privacy-protecting fashion. rect users to websites or places where they can purchase and con‐ By taking this approach, the bill would accommodate emerging sit‐ sume products. One of the fundamental aspects of that process is uations where collaboration between public and private sectors that companies can exchange and sell personal data, even if that da‐ could have broad public benefits, while at the same time maintain‐ ta is separated from the person's information and packaged in a set ing the trust and accountability that Canadians demand and deserve. of metadata. Companies rely heavily on selling and exchanging personal data. Third, the bill would provide the framework for codes of practice so businesses, especially those in specific industries or sectors of the economy, could proactively demonstrate compliance with the Will the government commit to putting an end to this practice, law. The bill would do this by introducing co-regulatory mecha‐ which turns consumers into mere numbers, into merchandise to be nisms into Canada's privacy landscape that would have businesses exchanged by big companies? and the Privacy Commissioner working together. For example, there could be a code for de-identification. Mr. William Amos: Madam Speaker, I thank my esteemed col‐ I recognize my time is running short so I will simply mention league from Rosemont. that I would open the door to talking about the process the bill would provide for certification and certification bodies. I think this would be a very important provision that businesses across Canada We are well aware that Canadian consumers want more protec‐ would use regularly and that the Privacy Commissioner would have tions. They want to consent to the use of their information, and they the opportunity to work on with businesses. want that consent to be informed and to be freely and clearly given. That desire for better control over their personal information is cen‐ With that, I am thankful for the opportunity to speak to Bill C-11. tral to this bill. It is very important that people have the right to re‐ I look forward to taking the questions of my hon. colleagues. quest that their personal information be destroyed. There are also ● (1555) circumstances where the consumer may want to transfer their data to other organizations. [Translation] Ms. (Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Mat‐ apédia, BQ): Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. There are several organizations, and I think our government has tried to find a middle ground and balance public and private inter‐ Bill C-11 seems to apply only to private businesses, not to the ests in this very complex area. We will be pleased to discuss poten‐ federal government. We all saw many examples of this during the tial amendments to this bill in committee. pandemic. I imagine that all members were informed of the cases of victims of fraud or identity theft reported to their riding offices. ● (1600) It therefore seems to me that this bill could also be applied to the federal government. Before imposing these sorts of measures, which I agree are desperately needed, on private businesses, per‐ [English] haps the government should have a look in its own backyard. I would like my colleague to tell me whether his government Mr. Lloyd Longfield (Guelph, Lib.): Madam Speaker, when plans to do that. Canada's anti-spam legislation was first brought forward, I was president of a chamber of commerce. I was dealing with the issues, Mr. William Amos: Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for in business, of all the requirements and hurdles that had to be dealt her question. with. They were designed around email spam. We are now into the Bill C-11 certainly focuses more on commercial activities. That next generation of spam, and information is shared digitally in dif‐ is where there is a real interest, and it is the stakeholders in that ferent ways other than email. area that we have been consulting for several months, and even years, to find solutions that will not only protect consumers but also Could the member describe how this legislation builds on previ‐ benefit businesses and SME development across Canada. ous legislation such as Canada's anti-spam legislation? That said, with regard to the federal government's work on mod‐ ernization and the protection of individuals, we have already in‐ Mr. William Amos: Madam Speaker, that is a great question be‐ cluded protections in the Elections Modernization Act during the cause privacy law needs to evolve. The spam issue came from an previous Parliament and so I think we have made progress on both email generation. Now we are into the big data and social media sides. This time, we are focusing on commercial activities. generation. It all fundamentally starts with a better consent regime. Mr. Alexandre Boulerice (Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, It goes to transparency. It goes to a more informed consumer of da‐ NDP): Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. ta. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2339

Government Orders I am looking forward to the improvements to this privacy regime vest in a service that gives these tools to our businesses, so they can as the bill passes through Parliament. help Canadians and consumers? [Translation] Mr. Joël Godin (Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, CPC): Madam I have mixed feelings about this bill. It obviously comes from a Speaker, I would like to inform you that I will be sharing my time good place, but are we taking the best possible measures to ensure with the hon. member for Lethbridge. solutions for the coming days, weeks and months? We need some‐ thing concrete. Today we are discussing Bill C-11, an act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act and the Personal Information and Data Pro‐ tection Tribunal Act and to make consequential and related amend‐ My constituents often tell me that I must find it hard to be a par‐ ments to other acts, which received first reading in the House on liamentarian, because I am pragmatic. We need concrete solutions. November 17. The goal is laudable, but are we taking the right measures? I am not sure. I am aware of the importance of the issue addressed in the bill. It is 2020. Who would have thought that, in 2020, we would have to come to grips with technology in such a hurry because of a pan‐ I hear from many businesses and citizens. They are still calling demic? me to tell me they are having problems with Phoenix. They are fed‐ eral employees who are having problems with their pay because of Technology was already evolving at a fast pace, but I can say Phoenix. Phoenix is a problem that was never fixed. It has been that we have had to increase our knowledge at great speed. If some‐ around since the Liberal government's first term in 2015. It is now one had asked me three months ago if I was comfortable with tele‐ 2020, and nothing has been resolved. conferencing, I would have said no, but today it is an everyday oc‐ currence. It is important to address this issue. ● (1605) I would like to remind the House that I represent the fantastic riding of Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier in Quebec. In 2019, the per‐ sonal data of 2.9 million Desjardins members were leaked. They I agree that we need to enact a law to protect personal informa‐ were victims of identity theft. Their data were resold to people who tion, but there may be other priorities. We are seeing it now with wanted to use them to do business in the financial sector. Although the Canada Revenue Agency. I have constituents calling my office the leak did not involve banking information, it still exposed the af‐ to ask if I can help them, because the CRA is claiming it sent them fected customers to identity theft. money that they never received, which is a sign that they are vic‐ tims of fraud and their identity has been stolen. On June 20, 2019, Desjardins revealed that the personal informa‐ tion of 40% of its members had been illegally shared outside the or‐ ganization by an employee, who had since been fired, of course. On Should we be enacting a law to punish large companies when we July 8, Quebec's Commission d'accès à l'information and the Office cannot even solve the problem in our own backyard? I am aware of of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada announced that they were the importance of this bill, but I wonder whether we are taking the launching investigations. On July 15, Desjardins broadened its right measures. identity theft protection and offered protection to more than 4.2 million individual members and 300,000 corporate members. I mentioned this earlier, but it is worth repeating: I am the mem‐ On November 1, it announced that all 4.2 million individual mem‐ ber for Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, which is in the province of Que‐ bers had been affected by the data leak. About 173 of the 350,000 bec. Quebec has a program to help people who have a baby: The corporate members were also affected. mother or the father is entitled to parental leave. I will reveal that I am a Desjardins customer and that I was part of this group. Even before the pandemic, digital transactions were Here is another example that boggles the mind. One of my con‐ commonplace. The current context is speeding things up. stituents meets all of the EI eligibility criteria, but his claim is being Today's bill comes from a good place, because we do need to reviewed because there seems to be some problem factoring in the keep up with the times, but will we be able to apply and enforce it? parental leave he took in 2019 and the Canada child benefit claim Are we not putting the cart before the horse? That is the problem he submitted during the pandemic interfered with processing his with this bill. claim. Examples in my riding make me wonder. The government is try‐ ing to bring in legislation that would impose astronomical fines on That only happens in Quebec. The Liberal government seems un‐ non-compliant companies. The government is puffing out its chest, aware of the existence of provincial programs, and its Canada-wide bragging that our country will be giving the biggest, juiciest, harsh‐ employment insurance system prevents it from fixing the problem. est and most lucrative fines, but will we be able to collect? In this case, is it because it is a Quebecker? Is it because he is a fa‐ ther? I am asking because I want to stress the importance of finding What do we want? We want to protect Canadians and provide concrete solutions to systems before we consider a bill that will them with the necessary tools. Would it not make more sense to in‐ punish big corporations. 2340 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders I completely agree that those who are at fault should be held re‐ [English] sponsible, should accept the consequences and should pay if they break the law. I completely agree with my colleagues on that point. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ However, I wanted to show how bizarre this situation is, a situation dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ that puzzles me. er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, it is important to recognize what the legislation is doing. Clearly, we need to reflect on this and update the legislation, but At the end of the day, we can take a look at our digital environment is the version being introduced today the best one? I think we need and the degree to which there has been a explosion of activity on to send this bill to committee for further study and consultation the Internet, and we can see that in the last couple of years we have with specialists and experts. We did actually notice that there is on‐ probably seen more data put into the Internet than we saw in the ly one expert regarding the tribunal. previous 10 years. One can only imagine what it will be like two years from now. I do not pretend to be such an expert. I am not computer savvy and, as I said six months or a year ago, I was unaware of my skills It appears as if all parties want to see the bill sent to committee. and adaptability to technology. Many members here in Parliament Does the member have some specific amendments today that he have managed to learn quickly, at lightning speed. would like to see made to the legislation, or is he more content to That is why we need to think about this bill and, as I said in my wait until it gets to committee and then have the discussion at that speech, not put the cart before the horse. We need to do things right point in time? to make sure that the bill really meets Canadians' needs. At the end of the day, the goal is the same: to protect society's interests and en‐ ● (1615) sure that Canadians are respected and protected. We are all working [Translation] toward this goal. I will now happily answer my colleagues' questions. On that Mr. Joël Godin: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my col‐ note, let us be vigilant, because fraud is always lurking around the league, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Govern‐ corner. ment in the House of Commons. ● (1610) In my speech, I raised certain questions. I think that we must act [English] and that the intent of the legislation is positive. Having said that, I will not pretend to present any facts today. I want to hear from Ms. (Victoria, NDP): Madam Speaker, big cor‐ computer experts in the field. I think that we need to send this bill porate data breaches are becoming more and more common. Cana‐ to committee in order to study it and to get it right. dians are concerned about how big tech giants, like Facebook and others, are using their data. The bottom line of my speech today is that we need to get it right Privacy rights are so important in this day and age. We have to in order to protect Canadians in the technological world. That is be clear on where we stand. We need stronger policies than some of how I would put it. As my colleague said, we need to take a com‐ the policies presented in this bill on compensation, enforcement and prehensive look at the bill. data collection. I fully agree with him; we need to take a comprehensive look at Does the member agree that we should not be making it easier it in order to protect Canadians. for the Facebooks and the Googles of the world to use Canadians' personal information in ways that have nothing to do with their ser‐ Ms. Kristina Michaud (Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Mat‐ vices, in the guise of helping small business? Is that really the right apédia, BQ): Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. place to stand? [Translation] A bill on the same subject is currently working its way through the Quebec National Assembly: Bill 64. It provides fairly signifi‐ Mr. Joël Godin: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my col‐ cant penalties for organizations that fail to meet their privacy obli‐ league from Victoria for her question, which is very relevant. gations. I would not even break it down by category. As I mentioned at the end of my presentation, Canadians must be protected. We could Does my hon. colleague think that this bill is strong enough in include the banking sector, e-commerce companies, Facebook and terms of penalties? all organizations. I say organizations, because there is also fraud in other organizations. That is why I am taking this opportunity to say Mr. Joël Godin: Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague that the government should ban Huawei from 5G. I am talking from Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia. about organizations and all businesses that could benefit from ex‐ ploiting Canadians. I would rather not see stiffer penalties and fines as a way to get results. I think that we have to be smart and strategic about it. We My colleague is perfectly correct: We need a stronger act to pro‐ need to think carefully and pass legislation that will yield concrete tect Canadians, and it must cover all users and possible scammers. results and protect Canadians. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2341

Government Orders [English] of codified instructions followed by our computing devices, Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC): Madam Speaker, citi‐ whether that is our smart phone or television, etc. Basically, it in‐ zens are increasingly concerned with the information that is being structs the device or the site that we are on to do something that the collected about them, how that information is stored and how that creator would desire it to do in order to anticipate our digital deci‐ information is used. When they like or dislike something on Face‐ sions and to direct us to the places it would like to direct us to go. book, where is that information stored and how is it utilized? When the bank asks them three important questions, to which they pro‐ vide a security answer, where is that information stored and who We know that algorithms are being used especially on social me‐ has access to it? dia platforms to affect our shopping habits, as well as our human As the digital world has advanced and expanded exponentially, behaviour. They are used to evoke strong, primarily negative emo‐ regulations and oversight, unfortunately, have been rather lax. Now tions from the platform user, which produce harmful results both Canada is in a position where it needs to play catch-up. Like an un‐ mentally and emotionally. Algorithms determine what is shown on tamed beast, bad actors have been given access to our information our Facebook timelines or Instagram feeds and the advertisements and now we are having to pull back in an effort to protect Canadi‐ that come up on the pages we look at. Companies and organizations ans. use patented algorithms to push their agendas, whether that is to boost sales or to elicit support for a specific cause. They study us, The digital charter implementation act, which seeks to protect the they follow us and they direct us. country's aging privacy regime or bring it up to international stan‐ dards, is much needed and I commend the government for that. However, there are a number of concerns I wish to address as we bring this to a vote. Of course, my hope is that appropriate amend‐ As we navigate online, our behaviour is constantly monitored. ments are made once this gets to the committee stage. The data is stored, commodified and then it is even monetized, of‐ ten without our consent. That information is then used to manipu‐ Technology provides us with incredible opportunities for connec‐ late and control future behaviours through other algorithms. This tivity, influence and prosperity. However, in the midst of all of pattern is particularly harmful to young children, as well as young these positive components, there is also a dark side. By not serious‐ adults, who are susceptible to these tactics. ly enforcing transparency and security measures, we run the risk of perpetuating our nation's technological vulnerabilities and we fail to protect our citizens' privacy. Algorithms are now using artificial intelligence, which means I want to commend the government for acting on this file and that they are in some ways scarier than ever. They can learn how to crafting legislation that attempts to right some of these wrongs. It is trigger negative emotions and keep the user online for hours upon unfortunate, however, that it took five years to bring this time-sen‐ hours by targeting them with enticing images, stories or videos, sitive bill forward, but it is definitely a step in the right direction. things that would be of interest to them, because, remember, these The Privacy Commissioner has been calling for many of these individuals have been preyed upon and studied for many years. changes, but the Privacy Commissioner would also urge the House to go further. It is no secret that Canada is lagging behind other countries and we need to get going. ● (1620) If we want Canada to be a leader in technology and artificial in‐ telligence, it is important that we invest the time and resources to get this right. While some measures in the bill meet international standards, others are lacking. Therefore, it is absolutely vital that The legislation before the House would give Canadians a right to we do not just pass legislation that checks off a few boxes and transparency, but it fails to provide a mechanism for action. It is makes a few provisions, and then pat ourselves on the back as if we like being able to see that someone is harming a child but not actu‐ accomplished something great. What we are dealing with is very ally being able to take any action. Again, transparency is there, but complex, sometimes confusing and merits keen attention, as well as what is the good of transparency if the wrong cannot be righted? bringing all the experts to the table. Jim Balsillie, the founder of Centre for International Governance Innovation and an expert in the realm of digital privacy, has right‐ Robert Mazzolin is the chief cybersecurity strategist for the fully flagged this for us. He has flagged the call for algorithmic RHEA Group. He explained that legislators must insist that AI sys‐ transparency in the bill as something that is inadequate and ineffec‐ tems are made comprehensible to humans. In other words, make tive in addressing the real problem. We do not just need transparen‐ them understandable. He went on to say, “Enhanced transparency is cy. He is saying that we need to go a step further. We also need full a precondition for the acceptance of AI systems, particularly in access to the information and an understanding of what it means, as mission-critical applications impacting life and death”. Algorithmic well as teeth in the event that something needs to be done about it. transparency is not enough. Canadians must be able to access not only the algorithms that are being used but what the code actually In order to better understand the problem, let me take one mo‐ means. They must also be able to act when the algorithms are being ment to talk about algorithms. In simple terms, an algorithm is a set used in a harmful manner. 2342 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders Furthermore, when it comes to requesting information about the the rest of the wall is only built a few feet high, they are in. That is algorithms that are being used, the bill actually fails to legislate or what the legislation is like. It means well, but it is not nearly as give direction as to how the contact information for companies can comprehensive as it needs to be. be easily accessed. This might seem simple, but when was the last time members were able to just phone Google or contact it to in‐ In closing, I am asking for an opportunity to work across party quire about something? It is not very easy. When was the last time lines to address the concerns of Canadians to adequately serve their members were able to get a hold of customer service at Facebook? safety needs. Again, it is not very easy. ● (1625) There is an opportunity within this legislation, a bare minimum within regulation, to tell companies where the information needs to Ms. (London—Fanshawe, NDP): Madam be located and how it needs to be accessible to the Canadian public. Speaker, I know that the member across the way has lots of con‐ For example, make it so that it has to be accessible on the home cerns with this legislation. I certainly do. They are about the cre‐ page, that it has to be size 12 font, that it has to be a certain type of ation of a whole bunch of new categories for data exemption from font or that it has to be a certain colour of font. Make it so that the those privacy protections. I am a bit concerned about that. phone number, email and mailing address have to be listed. Make sure that we are caring for the consumer if this legislation is truly I am wondering if she could address the concerns that this give‐ about Canadians. away to big tech giants, which the Liberals have been accused of being far too close to, are also worrying. What does she see as If we want to keep children safe on their way to school, we do something that could fix that within the legislation? not just reduce speed limits in the area. We put in a crosswalk, lights, signs and crossing guards. We issue speeding tickets and we Ms. Rachael Harder: Madam Speaker, I think one of the things might even have police control. The objective here is to protect the that has come to our attention over the years is just how buddy-bud‐ kids, not just put up a speed limit sign. It is imperative that we take dy the current government is with, let us say, Facebook. We know a very comprehensive approach to protecting Canadians' privacy, the rules are bent. We know that provisions are made. We see evi‐ their digital safety and their security. It is not just about transparen‐ dence of leniencies being granted, and at the end of the day the cy. It is about so much more. rules should be applied equally across the spectrum of organiza‐ tions and businesses. If the bill were to pass today, it would already be out of date. We are seriously behind in protecting Canadians' data, and foreign Certainly, there is a greater need for accountability within this countries are certainly aware of that. By only addressing certain as‐ piece of legislation. When it comes to exemptions, that must be pects of digital privacy and ignoring others, the government is leav‐ thought through very carefully. ing Canadians vulnerable and putting our national security at risk. AI technology is upending the international balance of power and [Translation] shaping the geopolitical competition between nation-states. It would be naive for us to assume that foreign governments are not Ms. Monique Pauzé (Repentigny, BQ): Madam Speaker, in her looking at Canada's vulnerabilities as an opportunity to upset infor‐ speech, my colleague said that she had some suggestions to im‐ mation systems from within. This is extremely alarming and de‐ prove Bill C-11. This is also the case for the Bloc Québécois. serves for our attention. For example, there is Huawei. Countries like China are seeking On our side, we are very concerned about the issue of identity to obtain information superiority by acquiring massive amounts of theft. There are ways to verify someone's identity. In Europe, mech‐ data and using it to their advantage. The Chinese Communist Party anisms have been put in place. Here, however, the banks have no has been pushing for greater civil-military fusion, as it calls it, such obligations and, if it costs too much, they do nothing. We which is evident in numerous sectors but especially in telecoms and would like to see stricter regulations for banks and greater trans‐ data harvesting. The Chinese president has stated that AI, big data, parency. cloud storage, cyberspace and quantum communications were among “the liveliest and most promising areas for civil-military fu‐ Does the hon. member agree with what we are calling for? sion”. [English] It is perplexing then why this government has not yet taken steps to limit the impact that Huawei can have on our nation. In fact, we Ms. Rachael Harder: Madam Speaker, within the context of are the only country out of the Five Eyes alliance that has not limit‐ this bill, in which we are talking about the protection of privacy and ed Huawei or banned it altogether. This is perplexing and troubling. the safety of Canadians, we are really talking about consumer rights and provisions. The legislation is akin to building a security wall around a city, but only one section of the wall is built high enough to keep ene‐ When we are talking about identity theft and how our informa‐ mies out. Meanwhile, the rest of the wall is only built maybe a few tion is being used by organizations or businesses, of course the feet high. If enemies are looking at the part of the wall that is actu‐ most stringent rules should be put in place. As I said in my speech, ally built to the correct height, they are intimated by it and stay out, transparency must be granted. That is one thing, but the other is but the moment they take a peek around the corner and realize that that, in addition to transparency, there has to be teeth. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2343

Government Orders If our information is being misused, then we must have the right The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Carol Hughes): This be‐ to know that. We must also have the right to hold those organiza‐ ing a hybrid sitting of the House, for the sake of clarity, I will only tions accountable for their misuse. As well, it is important to note ask those who are opposed to the request to express their disagree‐ that misuse is not just what they do with our data. It is also how ment. they are managing it, in terms of keeping it secure. [Translation] That is exactly the hon. member's point, and it certainly deserves thorough thought. Accordingly, all those opposed to moving the motion please say ● (1630) nay. [Translation] Ms. (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minis‐ Hearing none, it is agreed. ter of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for her ques‐ The House has heard the terms of the motion. All those opposed tion. to the motion will please say nay.

One very interesting element of the bill we are debating is the [English] potential for the legislation to cover artificial intelligence and algo‐ rithms, which are used by many companies, including Facebook There being no dissenting voice, I declare the motion carried. and other such social networks. I am interested in my colleague's views on these algorithms and the applicable provisions. (Motion agreed to) [English] Ms. Rachael Harder: Madam Speaker, the question was with * * * regard to algorithms, which I went into quite extensively in my speech. DIGITAL CHARTER IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 2020 Again, I would certainly applaud the government for taking re‐ The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-11, sponsibility and putting within the bill the need for transparency An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act and the Per‐ around algorithms, but here is the deal: if, as a consumer or as a us‐ sonal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and to make er, I ask for the algorithms that are being used when I am on a cer‐ consequential and related amendments to other Acts, be read the tain website, and those algorithms come back to me as numerous second time and referred to a committee. pages of scattered numbers and letters, what does that mean to me? What good is that to me? Ms. Rachel Bendayan (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minis‐ ter of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Therefore, in this legislation, we actually need to make sure it is Trade, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my not just the transparency of the information being used and the al‐ colleague from Egmont. gorithms being used. We also have to make it accessible to Canadi‐ ans. They have to understand what is actually being done. They [Translation] need transparency, and to know, when algorithms are being mis‐ used, if they will have the opportunity to take action and to seek It is with great pleasure that I rise in the House today to speak to justice. the consumer privacy protection act and explain why this reform is This legislation falls short. It does not provide that for Canadi‐ important for enhancing the protection of our personal information. ans. When we talk about consumers, we are talking about all of us. * * * All Canadians deserve the peace of mind of knowing that their per‐ sonal information is protected. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ As the Privacy Commissioner of Canada has said, the pandemic dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ has accelerated the digitization of our lives, which inevitably in‐ er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam creases risks to our privacy and the security of our data. This has Speaker, there have been discussions among the parties, and if you raised serious concerns about our personal freedoms, our societal seek it, I believe you will find unanimous consent for the following values, the public good, and the compliance and oversight measures motion. I move: required to manage this public health crisis. That, during the debates on November 24, and November 26, 2020 on the Busi‐ ness of Supply pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), no quorum calls, dilatory motions or requests for unanimous consent shall be received by the Chair and, within each Clearly, this crisis has laid bare the need for a certain use of 15-minute period, each party may allocate time to one or more of its Members for available data, including personal information. In this context, we speeches or for questions and answers, provided that, in the case of questions and have seen many different approaches around the world. Different answers, the Minister's answer approximately reflect the time taken by the question, and provided that, in the case of speeches, Members of the party to which the peri‐ countries have deployed an array of technologies to support their od is allocated may speak one after the other. efforts. 2344 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders In some cases, their approach has focused on collecting location searches we recently did, or recommendations of videos on data for contact tracing or population monitoring or even for track‐ YouTube, for example, Canadians are constantly being fed informa‐ ing an individual's movements. In other cases, telecom service tion and suggested purchases based on algorithms that we know providers have given the government location data from their net‐ very little about. work. On that, let me make it clear that our approach, Canada's ap‐ proach, does not use those types of technologies. ● (1635) Without going on too much of a tangent, I watched a few weeks [English] ago a documentary called The Social Dilemma. I imagine many of us in this House who are interested in the topic of privacy protec‐ This federal government will always defend our privacy and our tion and the Internet are familiar with the documentary. Let me say personal data. Many stakeholders and experts have noted the poten‐ it scared the you-know-what out of me. tial impacts on the right to privacy arising from technologies being used elsewhere around the world. We heard those concerns, and that is why our Canadian approach does not involve these types of technologies. This bill would make it mandatory for companies to provide an‐ swers and an explanation, upon request, about how any predictions For example, in the case of the COVID Alert app, our govern‐ or recommendations targeted toward us were obtained. Legislating ment worked with a variety of partners to support public health ef‐ that right, providing that opportunity for consumers, is itself a de‐ forts to limit the spread of the virus, while also making sure we pro‐ terrent for companies seeking to make use of algorithms for nefari‐ tected Canadians' privacy. The application was designed with this ous purposes. This is a critical step forward. very objective in mind. As we have said before, the app has no way of knowing one's location, name, address, contacts or other infor‐ mation. In fact, following a review of the app, the Office of the Pri‐ vacy Commissioner fully supported it. [Translation] I hope that this dispels any lingering myths about the app, and as we are very much still in the midst of this pandemic with rising community cases throughout the country, I would like to take this This bill deals with a very complex issue for individuals and con‐ moment to encourage everybody to download the COVID Alert sumers and for businesses. It recognizes individuals' right to priva‐ app. cy as well as the need of organizations to collect, use or disclose personal information in the course of reasonable commercial activi‐ Bill C-11, before us today, would create a strong framework for ties. the protection of personal information in the private sector. The new consumer privacy protection act would impose requirements for obtaining individuals' consent to collect and use their data. Con‐ Our privacy bill is flexible enough to allow companies to apply sent must be granted prior to data collection, and consent forms the general requirements to practices specific to their sector. How‐ must be written in plain language that absolutely everybody can un‐ ever, I want to make it very clear that good intentions on the part of derstand. private-sector organizations are not enough. While this is extremely important, I know from my own experi‐ ence, the experience of my friends and speaking to my constituents, and surely this is the case for many Canadians across the country, ● (1640) that not everybody reads the disclosure and consent page before clicking “I agree”. That is why we have proposed in this bill to leg‐ islate that organizations can only seek consent for data that are strictly necessary for their purposes. They can collect credit card in‐ We know that for the new protections included in the legislation formation if they are selling something; they can collect an address to really be implemented, we need binding and effective mecha‐ if they will be delivering something. nisms to protect the rights of Canadian consumers. That is why this bill includes serious penalties for those who try to get around it. We Critically, this bill also would further empower consumers. It are talking about monetary penalties of up to $10 million, or 3% of would give us the unfettered right to ask what information has been global revenues, for large corporations that break the law. For more collected about us, how it has been used, whether it has been serious offences, fines up can go up to $25 million, or 5% of global shared, and whether it has been sold. We, as consumers, would revenues. have the right to access the information that an organization might have on us and request its immediate deletion. Another groundbreaking provision involves AI and algorithmic These measures would be among the toughest in the G7. Our transparency. We are all familiar with these algorithms which make government takes the privacy of Canadians very seriously, and the predictions and recommendations with the aim of influencing and web giants must do the same. We have seen major innovations and impacting our decisions. Whether our experience is seeing advertis‐ digital solutions that not only serve the public interest, but also pro‐ ing on Facebook or Google, which, very strangely, resembles some tect the privacy of our citizens. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2345

Government Orders The legislation would allow companies to innovate in a responsi‐ I made clear at that time, there are no providers in Canada at the ble manner and enable Canadians to have more control over their moment that are using Huawei's 5G infrastructure. personal information. It is true that the digital environment presents many challenges, but we must not let that stop us. There are I would also take issue, perhaps, with the word “scheme”. What tremendous opportunities. Back home in Montreal, I am seeing the is presented here in the bill before the House is a very serious potential of AI and responsible data usage. I am thinking about Mi‐ framework for the protection of personal information and data on la, Element AI, Hopper, AlayaCare and all the start-ups and small behalf of all Canadians. It is certainly something that I am looking businesses that are opening every day in Mile End and Mile Ex. We forward to debating more fully today and in the future. If there are must continue to encourage the development of this sector while specific amendments, as I said, I think we are open to them, but at ensuring that the public has confidence in the regulatory and legal its core, we have a very sound structure that we presenting in Bill framework governing these companies. C-11. As legislators, we must give Canadians our assurance that their Ms. Laurel Collins (Victoria, NDP): Madam Speaker, when data is safe and their privacy is respected. This assurance is neces‐ Canadians' privacy rights are violated, they should be compensated. sary not just to foster creativity and innovation, which are essential We have already heard stories about consumers in the U.S. receiv‐ ingredients for building a strong economy, but also to give us all ing compensation, when Canadians in the same circumstances re‐ peace of mind. ceived no compensation. I think that is a gap in this bill. Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to my hon. colleague's speech and I I am curious about going a step farther. I am wondering if the saw that the government did its homework by looking at what is be‐ member could comment on the idea of consumers being compen‐ ing done elsewhere in the world and learning from the experience sated for the data that they are giving, and having more choice before legislating on this issue. around which data and which personal information is going to these big web tech giants. It is a good idea to see what other countries are doing wrong so as not to make the same mistakes, but it is also a good idea to look Ms. Rachel Bendayan: Madam Speaker, I detailed, in my at what other countries are doing right. The Europeans implement‐ speech earlier, the very significant fines that companies would suf‐ ed a whole set of regulations to force financial institutions to verify fer for any contravention to this law. people's identity before authorizing transactions. That is missing from this bill, so we are failing to protect our constituents. I will re‐ I understand that what my colleague is asking for is compensa‐ peat that we work for them. This does not protect them from fraud. tion directly to consumers. As a former commercial litigator, I think there are serious issues with identifying what appropriate damages Does my hon. colleague not agree that this is a weakness of the would ensue from what kinds of data breaches. bill? Ms. Rachel Bendayan: Madam Speaker, I think what we have What I find so interesting about many of the provisions in this before us is fairly comprehensive. legislation is that it provides deterrence for companies not to en‐ gage in this behaviour. It would actually eliminate the behaviour We do need to look at what is being done right elsewhere, but we that we want to discourage rather than compensating consumers af‐ have also created a whole framework. We have also created a tri‐ ter the fact. bunal where consumers can file complaints and appeal their case. I believe that what we are presenting today is quite substantial, but I * * * am of course very open to looking at what other countries are doing if my colleague wants to present specific amendments in commit‐ PRIVILEGE tee. ORDER PAPER QUESTION NO. 97 ● (1645) [English] Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ Mr. (Steveston—Richmond East, CPC): Madam er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, we have had a lot of time to talk about the current situa‐ Speaker, I am rising to respond to a question of privilege raised by tion of privacy in Canada. As the member forPortneuf—Jacques- the member for Peace River—Westlock concerning the govern‐ Cartier mentioned, there are many situations in Canada where pri‐ ment's response to Order Paper Q-97. vacy has already been a problem. I wonder what the member's thoughts are on this. We are like a sinking ship. We have many Members well know that there are many precedents that support holes in the Canadian privacy ship. Meanwhile, the government is the notion that the Speaker is limited in his or her ability to judge talking about a scheme that would make it perfect. Why not just the quality of the response to an oral question or a written question. plug the big holes, such as the infiltration by Russia, Iran, or even China through Huawei's 5G network? To me that is not the wisest I can say with absolute certainty that the Standing Orders have way to handle our current situation. been respected in the case before the House. The government Ms. Rachel Bendayan: Madam Speaker, I did have the opportu‐ tabled an answer to Order Paper Q-97 within the time provided un‐ nity to rise on the Conservative motion with respect to Huawei. As der our rules. 2346 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders On November 27, 2018, the Speaker ruled on a similar situation: sonal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and to make Any dispute regarding the accuracy or appropriateness of this response is a mat‐ consequential and related amendments to other Acts, be read the ter of debate. It is not something upon which the Speaker is permitted to pass judg‐ second time and referred to a committee. ment.

This is precisely the situation with this matter. While I maintain Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.): Madam Speaker, it is a that this does not constitute a prima facie question of privilege, the pleasure for me to stand and resume debate on Bill C-11, now at government is of the view that accurate information is to be provid‐ second reading, on the consumer privacy protection act. ed to members who make such requests. I would note that in the future when a member feels that informa‐ tion provided through other means does not completely align with This act, which replaces private sector privacy protections under the information provided through an Order Paper question, that the the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, appropriate course of action might be to raise this issue with the PIPEDA, places consumer protection at the forefront in order to en‐ parliamentary secretary or minister who provided the response. sure Canadians have confidence in the digital marketplace and can trust that businesses are handling their personal data responsibly. The Conservatives are right to talk about the sanctity of this House and the great responsibility placed on members to respect the traditions and practices of this august Chamber. Surely no mem‐ It is important in an era of global online commerce for Canada to ber would want to diminish the respect for this House by deliber‐ put in place a privacy standard that offers consumers increased con‐ ately weaponizing questions of privilege and points of order to trol over their personal information as they participate in a modern score political points. digital marketplace. The act also includes important changes to en‐ If the member opposite really believes that his privilege has been able and support innovation in an increasingly digital marketplace. abused, he could have simply raised this matter with the minister who provided the response. That did not happen. It rarely does hap‐ pen, and that is unfortunate. Today I will be speaking about how our government is support‐ ing business and protecting Canadians' privacy as they actively par‐ That said, I do believe that all members ought to have easy ac‐ ticipate in the digital economy. Our government is working to es‐ cess to precise, relevant and complete information. As a result, I tablish an enhanced privacy framework where consumer protection have asked the parliamentary secretary who provided the response is strong and where businesses are supported in their efforts to in‐ to ensure that the member for Peace River—Westlock has the infor‐ novate in a rapidly changing digital landscape. mation he requested. His privileges rest on his ability to receive the information he has requested, not his ability to bring into question the government's motives. Bill C-11 makes important changes to the privacy framework for Canadians. It sets out enhanced measures for Canadians to ensure I thank the members of the House for their indulgence in allow‐ their personal information is protected and it enables new rules and ing the government to respond to this matter. mechanisms for industry in a way that promotes innovation in a ● (1650) digital world. The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Carol Hughes): I do ap‐ preciate the additional information that the parliamentary secretary has provided to the question of privilege. I am sure that the member We understand the need to ensure the privacy of Canadians is for Peace River—Westlock will appreciate the information from the protected. There is also a need to ensure that Canadian businesses parliamentary secretary. I will take all of the information under ad‐ have the supports they need to grow and prosper in a global market‐ visement, and will come back to the House should I need to re‐ place that runs on digital technologies and data. These changes spond. come at a time of great change, not only in terms of rapid advances in digital technologies, but also at a time that is critical for business [Translation] to adopt and innovate in a digital world. It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Mégantic—L'Érable, Official The need for digital solutions in our daily lives has become es‐ Languages; the hon. member for Saskatoon West; The Environ‐ sential in the current pandemic environment. In a time when physi‐ ment; the hon. member for Courtenay—Alberni; COVID-19 Emer‐ cal distancing has been so important, consumers want solutions that gency Response. give them access to the products and services they need and firms need to keep doing business and set themselves up to grow. * * * [English] For many, digital solutions have been the answer. However, we DIGITAL CHARTER IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 2020 all recognize that new technologies are providing companies with The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-11, vast amounts of personal information, data that is essential to mak‐ An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act and the Per‐ ing business decisions and offering new services to customers. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2347

Government Orders Innovation and growth are critical, but we must stand up for The law would also allow organizations to use data for purposes Canadians and ensure that this innovation happens in a responsible of the public good, specifically by allowing companies to disclose way. Today, I will be outlining the key elements of Bill C-11 that de-identified data to public entities. Such disclosures are only al‐ enable responsible innovation done right in the Canadian way. lowed where the personal information cannot be traced back to a particular individual and there is a socially beneficial purpose, that One of the goals of PIPEDA, our current law, has been to ensure is, a purpose related to health, public infrastructure or even environ‐ companies are able to handle personal information to meet their le‐ mental protections. This kind of provision would protect individu‐ gitimate business needs and do this in a privacy-protected way. To als while ensuring that we use all the tools at our disposal to ad‐ achieve this dual objective, PIPEDA's framework is principles- dress the biggest challenges of our time. based and technology neutral. This framework ensures that the law continues to apply even as technology has undergone rapid change. The CPPA retains this approach, continuing the success of a flexi‐ ble and adaptable privacy law in the Canadian private sector con‐ text. We all recognize that times are changing rapidly. Included in the bill is a clear set of parameters for institutions, To better reflect the realities of the digital economy and to con‐ such as hospitals, universities and even libraries, that would seek to tinue the emergence of the new big data technologies and artificial receive personal information for a socially beneficial purpose. intelligence, the CPPA has a number of provisions that support in‐ These parameters would help to clarify the rules of the road in a dustry moving forward. The bill would create a level playing field new and important field. for companies of all sizes. It does this by reducing administrative burdens, critical for the vast number of small and medium-sized en‐ terprises in Canada so essential to our economy.

It introduces a new framework for personal information that is These new provisions would also permit organizations to share de-identified. It establishes new mechanisms likes codes of practice more data in a trustworthy manner. This would allow the private and certification with independent oversight by the Office of the sector to work with different levels of government and public insti‐ Privacy Commissioner. It addresses data for research purposes or tutions to carry out data-based initiatives in a privacy-protecting purposes deemed to be socially beneficial. manner. By taking this approach, the bill accommodates emerging situations where collaboration between public and private sectors I will outline how the bill would do it all. The bill before us to‐ can provide broad public benefits, while at the same time retaining day includes a new exception which is consent to cover specified the trust and accountability we demand and deserve. business activities. The goal here is to allow Canadians to provide meaningful consent by focusing on specific activities that involve real choice. This is critical to avoid blanket consent agreements or the long, multi-page contracts that no one reads. It would also reduce the administrative burden on the business in Third, the bill would provide a framework for codes of practice situations where an individual's consent may be less relevant, such so that businesses, especially those in specific industries or sectors as a company's choice of a third party service provider for shipping of the economy, can proactively demonstrate their compliance with goods. The customer wants goods shipped and the company should the law. The bill would do this by introducing coregulatory mecha‐ have the ability to make this happen. The law should not add extra nisms into Canada's privacy landscape that would have businesses burden to fulfilling the service. and the Privacy Commissioner working together. For example, companies operating a specific type of business could develop a ● (1655) code of practice that demonstrates compliance with a specific part of the law, and the Privacy Commissioner could formally recognize Therefore, the bill provides for new regulations to be developed the code. For instance, there could be a code for de-identification. for prescribed business activities, and that introduces the concept of legitimate interest in Canada's privacy framework. This is some‐ thing that industry has asked for and the government has answered in Bill C-11. Second, we are better defining and clarifying how companies are Lastly, the bill provides for certification and certification bodies. to handle de-identified personal information, that is, personal infor‐ Such bodies could use codes of practice to certify businesses com‐ mation that has been processed and altered to prevent any identifi‐ pliance with some or all of the law. This is a useful tool for compa‐ cation of a particular individual. The bill would allow organizations nies, especially small and medium-sized identities, and would be to de-identify personal information and use it for new research and backed up by oversight by the Privacy Commissioner. This means development purposes. Businesses must undertake R and D to im‐ that the Privacy Commissioner would have the option to decline to prove their products and to offer customers the new and leading- investigate a privacy complaint when a company has obtained a edge services that they are looking for. This provision would give certification related to the complaint. This is not only efficient, but businesses the flexibility to use de-identified data for those purpos‐ also provides an additional layer of certainty for business and con‐ es, adding value for customers and firms alike. sumers alike. 2348 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders Recognized practices, codes and certifications would make it been put on the Internet for decades. One can only imagine what it easier for business to comply with the law and for individuals to is going to be like two years from now. understand how they are protected. Bill C-11 would not only help keep the personal information of Canadians safe, but enable tomor‐ Could my colleague provide his thoughts on why it is important row's innovators by supporting Canadian businesses in every corner that we bring forth this legislation? of the digital economy. ● (1705) With the bill, the government has made innovation and economic Mr. Robert Morrissey: Madam Speaker, as my colleague is a growth a top priority. It is a major step forward. long-time parliamentarian, he would understand that in the last five ● (1700) to 10 years, the world economy has expanded and changed so rapidly, especially on the data side and in the technology base, that [Translation] we are really running to catch up. If we look at businesses in the Mrs. (Trois-Rivières, BQ): Madam past, we see change occurred slowly and businesses, especially Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for all his clarifications on small businesses, could adapt to it in a meaningful way. Bill C-11. At the heart of this legislation is the idea of providing certainty in However, I would like to take him in another direction. Quebec an uncertain world to small and medium-sized businesses, which is also currently studying proposed legislation, Bill 64, which really are the foundation of Canada's economy. The government would provide increased protection for personal information and is should be able to provide certainty to small and medium-sized busi‐ heavily based on European law. nesses, as it is a key economic driver in the country. I am wondering if the government considered how these two I am excited about this legislation, as it provides for a certain laws will work together, to avoid the confusion that any overlap world in a very dramatically changing data period. That is why the would cause for the consumer. bill is important. It will require amendments, though, as it goes [English] down the road, because we will be playing catch-up for some time. Mr. Robert Morrissey: Madam Speaker, crafting legislation is [Translation] obviously complex, and governments reach out to various jurisdic‐ tions in analyzing similar legislation to adapt best practices that oc‐ Mr. Sébastien Lemire (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, BQ): cur elsewhere. Certainly, as the bill moves through the parliamen‐ Madam Speaker, I am honoured to be sharing my time with the tary process and gets analysis and debate at various stages includ‐ member for Terrebonne. ing committee, I am sure all those best practices will be brought I am pleased to rise to speak to the fundamental issue of the pro‐ forward and included in any amendments that may make the bill tection of privacy. stronger, better and less confusing for consumers, as the hon. mem‐ ber pointed out. Since March 2020, Quebec business owners have been hard hit Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP): Madam by the negative economic impacts of the COVID-19 crisis, namely Speaker, I heard something from an organization a few years ago. It the lockdown, the closures, the health measures, the labour shortage was talking about providing individuals with the ability to give and the drop in consumption. their consent for the use of their information and allowing for com‐ panies to compensate them directly. SMEs in Quebec have received assistance in the form of tax credits from the Government of Quebec and the Government of Considering this has been out there for quite a while, I wonder Canada to help mitigate these negative economic impacts. Now why the government did not put it forward in the legislation and more than ever, SMEs are struggling under a burden of debt and what the member would think about that as an amendment. many of them may never recover. At this difficult time for Quebec's Mr. Robert Morrissey: Madam Speaker, the complexity of the social and economic life, I am worried about Quebec's SMEs, and question lies in the definition or interpretation of consent by the in‐ particularly the small business owners who do not have the time or dividual who is giving it. That is why legislation in most cases is money to get bogged down in a data protection program that, in broad and can be broadly applied, as my hon. colleague pointed some cases, will have to take into account a number of Quebec and out. She used a specific reference, but in this case it is about incor‐ Canada laws. porating an individual's or a business's idea of consent into legisla‐ tion so that it respects the many definitions of consent across the By amending the Privacy Act, the Government of Canada is cre‐ country. ating a number of problems for Quebec's SMEs because of legisla‐ tion adopted by two governments, the Government of Quebec and Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ the Government of Canada. Depending on whether their economic dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ activities extend beyond Quebec's borders, it is very likely that er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Quebec's SMEs will not know which law governs their data protec‐ Speaker, could my hon. colleague provide his thoughts as to why it tion plan. is so important that we bring forward legislation of this nature? I have not had this factually substantiated, but one thing I was told is The new federal law proposed in Bill C-11 will have real teeth, that the amount of information that has been put on the Internet in which means that Quebec's SMEs are likely to suffer, unfortunately. the last two years is greater than the amount of information that has I am scared to think how this bill will affect Quebec's SMEs. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2349

Government Orders The pandemic is forcing many retailers to shift to online sales, tigation and all kinds of documentation. There were numerous dis‐ the kind of electronic commerce referred to in the bill. In his speech cussions with a financial institution and government officials. He to the House this morning, the Minister of Industry acknowledged had to go to great lengths just to prove that a fraudster had stolen that the protection of personal information is essentially a provin‐ his identity and to defend his reputation to a financial institution cial responsibility and a matter of civil law. He said his bill respects and the Canada Revenue Agency. provincial jurisdiction, but a closer look at the text reveals that to be not quite the case. ● (1710) It is true that Bill C-11 applies to all federally regulated business‐ es. However, businesses that are not federally regulated, which de‐ scribes the vast majority of companies and virtually all SMEs, are It was weeks before this young man was able to access the not really excluded from the scope of the bill. Canada emergency student benefit he very much needed. That is not exactly the kind of introduction a young adult should have to The minister can exclude them if the province has substantially dealing with banks and governments. This whole situation hap‐ similar legislation, as is the case in Quebec, but he cannot exclude pened because the government did not take the time to verify the them entirely. In fact, he can exclude them only “in respect of the identity of the CERB applicant. collection, use or disclosure of personal information that occurs within that province”. The government needs to set an example and take immediate ac‐ Imagine the mess: a Quebec SME will have to comply with the tion to combat identity theft. This is a serious problem. Bill C-11 Quebec law if the information does not leave Quebec, but it will contains some privacy mechanisms, but there is no mechanism to have to comply with the federal law if the information does leave verify the identity of users or consumers to protect their personal Quebec. Information collected from one customer will be subject to information. two different laws.

Which law do Visa card payments fall under? Does it depends on I remind members that private information falls under the um‐ which territory the Visa server is located in? This seems unenforce‐ brella of property and civil rights, which is a provincial jurisdiction, able to me. If a business is covered by the Quebec legislation on da‐ as set out in the Constitution. Quebec is in the process of moderniz‐ ta protection, that should apply to all its activities, not just half of ing its act. Unfortunately, it is difficult to assess right now how the them, as it would under the bill as currently worded. federal act and the Quebec act will interface. Furthermore, Quebec laws are also adapting to the reality. We must recognize that the federal government's bill represents a step However, the Bloc Québécois foresees some problems, and we forward, because the current legislation has no teeth. Under do not want these problems to affect small businesses in Quebec, Bill C-11, a privacy commissioner could establish the specific prac‐ which, I remind members, are struggling as a result of the econom‐ tices to be adopted in accordance with the principles set out in the ic issues associated with the COVID-19 crisis. legislation. A privacy commissioner would have order-making powers to force organizations to comply with those principles. Under Bill C-11, a citizen could file a complaint with a tribunal. SMEs carry a heavy debt load at times. Any additional weight on The privacy tribunal will also be able to impose significant penal‐ the shoulders of Quebec entrepreneurs is becoming harder and ties of up to 3% of a multinational's global revenue for non-compli‐ harder to bear. Considering the potential administrative nightmare ance. In short, the major difference between the law and the bill we that could result from how the federal legislation intersects with the are debating, is that the bill's mechanisms are more favourable to Quebec legislation, I would ask that Quebec SMEs be exempt from citizens when faced with an organization that misuses digital data. Bill C-11. This bill fails to address the important issue of online identity protection to prevent fraud through identity theft, especially when Simon Marchand, chief fraud prevention officer at Nuance Com‐ Canadians engage in financial transactions. Bill C-11 does nothing munications, is a certified fraud examiner, a certified administrator to ensure that financial institutions in Canada verify someone's and an expert in biometrics and security. He appeared before the identity before authorizing a transaction, which exposes Canadians Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology on to fraud. Even the federal government has failed to properly verify May 20. We were discussing fraud-related topics. He mentioned a person's identity before authorizing an electronic transaction. that in the context of COVID-19, telework was a risk factor. This is especially true when it comes to customer service. I would like to share an unfortunate incident that happened to one of my constituents. This summer, a young man was a victim of identity theft and wound up having to defend his reputation to the All customer service agents who normally work in call centres Canada Revenue Agency and another financial institution. It was now work from home, in an unsupervised environment. These my own office manager who, while talking to a federal official on agents have limited resources, but now have the opportunity to ac‐ the phone, realized that fraud had taken place. My office manager cess sensitive consumer information, whether it is data on their as‐ took charge of the case and helped my young constituent navigate sets or information that could be used by anyone to impersonate the unpleasant process that lasted weeks. There was a police inves‐ someone else. 2350 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Government Orders A second factor is the socio-economic reality, which will no the member provide his thoughts on how important it is to protect doubt put pressure on many households. When it comes to internal the information of individuals that gets onto the Internet via one fraud, we know that pressure and opportunity are the two basic fac‐ way or another? tors that drive an employee to go against their employer’s interests and commit fraud. [Translation] Some areas have seen a 600% increase in the number of phishing scams involving COVID-19; attachments, links to websites and Mr. Sébastien Lemire: Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague other methods are being used to lure victims. Fraudsters will be from Winnipeg North for his excellent question. able to get their hands on vast amounts of consumer information, which they will not use in the next few weeks. Rather, they will I agree with him. The best way to thwart identity theft is to en‐ wait six to 18 months before opening up accounts, taking out finan‐ sure that the person who wants to conduct a transaction is who they cial products and acquiring products from telecommunications car‐ say they are. People can be identified based on what they know, riers. That is what this bill is all about. It provides a modicum of what they have and who they are, through personal information. A protection, which is a good thing. person's name and address are part of what they know. The IP ad‐ dress of their computer or a cellphone number where an institution In terms of accountability, Simon Marchand said: can send a text message are part of what they have, and finally, fa‐ I think, though, the focus should be on accountability and the responsibility cial recognition, their handwriting or their digital fingerprints are companies have in relation to the information they use to deliver services.... it calls into question the bank’s responsibility, which is protecting that information. part of who they are. These are ways to fight fraud.

The first benefit of accountability will be to give the government In the European Union, two of these three ways must be used to a clear picture of the situation. It will know exactly how many vic‐ identify a person. Why does Canada not do the same? These control tims there are, and it will be able to direct measures accordingly to mechanisms will not cost more than fraud will if nothing is done. strengthen security, particularly in banks and telecommunications companies. [English] This will put a burden on businesses, which will have to file re‐ ports, but this burden is not unreasonable, since the data they have Mr. Gord Johns (Courtenay—Alberni, NDP): Madam Speak‐ is already known. All they will have to do is provide them to law‐ er, we know identity theft is a crime. We saw what happened with makers or to a government-supervised body that can present these LifeLabs; over 15 million people's data was stolen. An employee at data more broadly and anonymously so that members of Parliament Desjardins stole the personal data of four million people and affect‐ can access that information and know exactly what is going on in ed 173,000 businesses. Canada. This is an important step, because if there is a leak, companies We are not discussing the Criminal Code today, but maybe the must tell individuals what information was exposed and the risk of member could talk about what changes he would propose in dealing harm from the leak. That is what the bill does, and it is absolutely with those issues to ensure there are steep penalties so that does not fundamental, because that is a risk that we run. happen again.

In conclusion, the lack of accountability for federally regulated [Translation] businesses is a problem with the current legislation. There is cur‐ rently no overall picture of how many people are actually victim‐ Mr. Sébastien Lemire: Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague ized by having their identity used once it has been stolen. I am for his question, and I want to take this opportunity to talk about therefore pleased that the federal government is taking greater re‐ crisis management. sponsibility and beginning to act by introducing this legislation. ● (1715) In my opinion, Desjardins' response is the gold standard. It ac‐ [English] knowledged the thefts and sent a personal letter to its clients or, Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ specifically, to the clients that had been affected. As a result, they dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ were able to act very quickly. er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, when we talk about the legislation, even some of its limi‐ There have been other situations. Equifax chose to cover up what tations, and how it could be complemented by working with other happened to protect its reputation. The Bank of Montreal and CIBC jurisdictions, it is important that we recognize the role provinces did the same until the hackers themselves put a message online. can play through provincial legislation, which could complement it There are dozens of similar examples. or even be a leading force. We previously have seen this with other administrations. Desjardins knows its clients. In all likelihood, it is other financial For me, the overriding concern has to be the privacy and protec‐ institutions, and not banks, that fall under federal jurisdiction. Once tion of Canadians and consumers. That is the most important aspect we identify the problem we can find a solution. The first solution is going forward when we deal with legislation of this nature. Could transparency. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2351

Government Orders ● (1720) However, there are a number of troubling issues that the bill does [English] not address. For instance, metadata is not included in the bill. I am not an IT expert, but metadata is something that we see regularly. Mr. Kenny Chiu (Steveston—Richmond East, CPC): Madam For example, if we spend a few minutes on the Internet searching Speaker, I have a question that relates to applicability, which was for a camp chair, it is not unusual to then see ads for various types mentioned by my colleague. of camping equipment. In my previous job as a software development professional, I learned that the European general data protection regulation was That is worrisome because metadata can be used to target specif‐ applicable to anyone who provided goods and services. Our compa‐ ic individuals. When a group of individuals is targeted, there is a ny, even though we registered it in Canada, does business there as risk of more targeted threats or cyber-attacks. That is why I think it well. Therefore, I imagine many of the businesses in Quebec would would be a good idea to improve the bill by addressing the issue of also do business in Europe, and the GDPR would be applicable. metadata. Could he comment on that? The federal government, and the Canada Revenue Agency in [Translation] particular, has quite a lot of work to do on matters of identity theft. Mr. Sébastien Lemire: Madam Speaker, I agree with my col‐ The CRA's mandate is to manage revenues on behalf of the Canadi‐ league, and I would even add that this should apply to the federal an government. government. The government does not verify identities online, and any verifi‐ However, what happens in the case of computer fraud as a result cations that do exist are cursory ones. I should say that the govern‐ of identity theft? In that case, it becomes more a matter of public ment is not doing what it needs to do to ensure that an applicant is safety and national security. In many cases, fraud and identity theft, actually who they claim they are. As we have seen with the CERB, particularly in the banking sector, are committed from abroad using this can really open the system up to risks like identity theft, which fairly sophisticated electronic means. have serious consequences for Quebeckers and Canadians. Mr. (Terrebonne, BQ): Madam Speaker, it is Once again, I am not familiar with the mechanisms used to in‐ a great pleasure to speak to Bill C-11 today. vestigate these predominantly computer-based threats or to protect us from them. This is an extremely important subject that concerns the security and protection of all citizens' personal information. As my col‐ league already clearly stated, over the past 10 years and during the I am also referring to the recent debate we had—and I do think current pandemic, there have been a multitude of phishing scams this is related—on 5G networks in Canada, in terms of the techno‐ via telephone, the Internet and online shopping platforms, which logical means that will be deployed over the next few years to pro‐ are increasingly popular. tect the IT infrastructure itself from all threats and foreign influ‐ ences. I believe that Bill C-11 is timely and will correct major problems that we have been seeing for some time in different areas. For ex‐ In some cases, the threat might involve political or public influ‐ ample, there have been cases of bank fraud, notably at Desjardins, ence. In other cases, it could literally be individual hackers from and the federal government has also been affected. I know that the around the world who use technology, including 5G networks, to bill does not apply to the federal government, but this issue remains circumvent security mechanisms and break into various systems to a very serious concern. steal identities and the personal data of the various citizens that we Take, for example, a situation that has occurred in my riding of are meant to protect. Terrebonne. For the past month or so, we have been seeing a whole host of complaints related to the Canada Revenue Agency, from ● (1725) people whose identities were stolen by fraudsters who claimed CERB cheques in their name. This shows that there is a gap at the It seems to me that the general intent behind Bill C-11 is a worth‐ government level, which is very interesting. while one, crucial even, as I said in my opening remarks. However, we also need to tackle the technical side. I get the sense that some I understand that we need to look at what requirements should be issues were not considered from all angles so as to ensure that the established for banks and e-commerce, but I think that there may be bill reinforces the back door as much as it does the front door. some aspects of the bill that we could rework. We are only at de‐ bate at second reading for this bill, which means that the bill could be amended and improved to give it more teeth, make it more ro‐ Once again, protecting online identity is the most tenuous aspect, bust and ensure that it is more responsive to the various threats that and we are trying to rectify that here. I am concerned about a num‐ could arise in the future. Since we are essentially talking about ber of aspects of the authentication mechanisms, because that is re‐ technology here, the new law should be able to adapt its mecha‐ ally what this is about. Currently, many banks, institutions and nisms to the changes in technology that will occur in the coming businesses use a variety of platforms to secure and protect the iden‐ years. tity of online customers and consumers. 2352 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Private Members' Business As a few minutes on the Internet will show, private online com‐ PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS merce companies use many different authentication platforms and mechanisms. It might be a good idea to consider using the bill to standardize those online transaction authentication mechanisms, but [Translation] the government seems unwilling to do that in the current version of Bill C-11. DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS, TRADE AND DEVELOPMENT ACT The government wants to have companies and financial institu‐ tions take on more of the control, responsibility and obligations of Mr. (Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, BQ) protecting personal information. The government should, however, moved that Bill C-216, An Act to amend the Department of Foreign set out some very specific measures in the bill to ensure that all Affairs, Trade and Development Act (supply management), be now companies can shoulder this responsibility. Not every company has read a second time and referred to the Standing Committee on In‐ the financial means to set up robust data protection mechanisms. I ternational Trade. therefore think that the government needs to set some statutory re‐ quirements. He said: Mr. Speaker, this is not the first time that we have heard about supply management in the House. Every time that a motion is As my colleague from Abitibi—Témiscamingue pointed out ear‐ introduced on the issue, there is a unanimous vote and it seems that lier, a lot of small merchants and businesses do not have the finan‐ the matter is settled. cial means to improve or modernize their technology infrastructure. This issue may also need to be addressed in the comprehensive ap‐ proach we are advocating today. In fact, the House has already unanimously adopted three mo‐ tions calling on the federal government to fully protect supply man‐ There is the whole issue of jurisdictions. Quebec's jurisdiction agement. By all accounts, however, Liberal and Conservative gov‐ over civil law and consumer protection plays an extremely impor‐ ernments were not bound by their commitment when they signed tant role. We know that the laws are confined to the jurisdictions for the last three free trade agreements, those with the European union, which they were written. This is not just a Quebec and Canadian Asia-Pacific and the United States and Mexico. These agreements problem, but also an international one. By the way, I think it will be and the concessions that were made to reach them were catastroph‐ necessary for the government to define very clearly these famous ic for supply-managed agricultural producers. Their revenues control mechanisms and make solid political and governmental dropped by more than 8.4%. choices in connection with the new information technologies that will crop up here at home. Supply management has always been a key issue for the Bloc Québécois. This system was established in 1970 to stabilize the That is essentially where this will play out. We cannot give a for‐ price of agricultural products and, at the same time, ensure a decent eign government control over telecommunications and computer and predictable income for dairy farmers, table and hatching egg infrastructure. It is extremely important. We are wading into anoth‐ producers and poultry producers, including turkey and of course er field, but to be able to protect our constituents we have to ensure chicken. that our infrastructure is not threatened by other countries or by for‐ eign nationals, such as the hackers I mentioned earlier. During the time that the Bloc enjoyed a greater presence in the House of Commons and was strongly pushing for full respect for Then we have to find some form of standardization to help en‐ supply management, all free trade agreements with 16 different sure that clients or consumers are protected during online transac‐ countries fully protected the supply management system. The tions. Let's not forget the entire issue of metadata, which are a strong pressure and numerous interventions by the Bloc made a dif‐ formidable tool for any bad actor wanting to target and attack ference. groups that are more privileged or more vulnerable.

In conclusion, the federal government must ensure that Canadi‐ The World Trade Organization, or WTO, was established with ans can be guaranteed, in all circumstances, that a consistent inter‐ the goal of eliminating all tariff barriers, and the WTO considered national standard will be rigorously applied, and that it will be pos‐ supply management to be one of them. Protecting supply manage‐ sible to efficiently identify any and all fraudsters. Identifying fraud‐ ment became an even greater priority for the Bloc Québécois after sters has always been a problem, and the Canada Revenue Agency the federal election that followed the system's creation in June could speak at length about this in committee. 1977, as any occasion the WTO had to talk about it turned into a direct attack. ● (1730) The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member for Terrebonne will The Bloc Québécois was the first party to demand that the three have five minutes for questions and comments when the House re‐ pillars of supply management be maintained, in a motion moved by sumes debate on this motion. the former member for Richmond—Arthabaska, André Bellavance, in November 2005. I remind members that the House unanimously It being 5:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the considera‐ passed this motion. All parties in the House adopted André Bella‐ tion of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper. vance's motion, which read as follows: November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2353

Private Members' Business That, in the opinion of the House, the government should give its negotiators a each province, whose marketing boards or what are known as pro‐ mandate during the negotiations at the World Trade Organization so that, at the end ducer associations sell quotas to their own farmers. That ensures of the current round of negotiations, Canada obtains results that ensure that the sup‐ ply management sectors are subject to no reduction in over-quota tariffs and no in‐ production is aligned with domestic demand. crease in tariff quotas, so that these sectors can continue to provide producers with a fair and equitable income. This motion did not have unanimous support when it was moved, but it passed unanimously at the end of the day, after different groups of producers put pressure on their members of Parliament The second pillar is price regulation through the establishment of throughout the day. a minimum price and a maximum price, so that each link in the supply chain gets its fair share. Today the Bloc wants to go further than a motion and insert pro‐ tection of supply management into legislation. We want to go fur‐ ther because the major Canadian parties in power do not seem to feel bound by the commitment that a motion represents. I suppose they think of it as more of a wish. We want protection of supply management inserted in a statute so that it is given force of law. The third pillar is border control. Obviously, if we do not skew the global market, we cannot allow other countries to skew our Then the governments, whether Liberal or Conservative, could market. That is why we use border controls to set very high tariffs no longer ignore their commitments to agriculture and the produc‐ and purchasing quotas to prevent foreign products or by-products ers could see who really has their interest at heart. It is important to from flooding our market. remember that in Quebec alone, dairy, egg and poultry producers represent 6,000 farms and 86,000 jobs. ● (1735)

With the exception of Ontario and Alberta, all of the other For instance, there might be times when our chicken or egg farm‐ provinces have supply-managed producers so it would be disastrous ers do not produce enough, and that is when chicken and eggs are if supply management disappeared. allowed in to meet this country's needs and avoid overproduction. I would like to talk about the bill that I am introducing on behalf The principle of border control is very important and is always the of the Bloc Québécois. It is very simple. It amends the Department one that comes under attack in international negotiations. of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act to make the protec‐ tion of the supply management system a responsibility of the minis‐ ter. It adds supply management to the list of directives that the min‐ ister must take into account when conducting Canadian external af‐ fairs, particularly in the area of international trade. It is this aspect that has been weakened considerably by interna‐ tional agreements. Canada is opening an ever-widening door in our Once the bill is fully implemented, the minister responsible for markets for foreign companies to sell their products here. On top of international trade will have to stand up to our trade partners and that, international trade standards are constantly seeking to reduce protect supply-managed farmers. The bill will make it part of the the tariff levels. Our largest trading partners would like to see these minister's mandate to negotiate without chipping away at the sys‐ tariffs disappear completely, and thus abolish supply management. tem, as he did when the three biggest international trade agreements of the past decade were signed. Of course, I am talking about the agreements with Europe, Asia-Pacific and the United States and Mexico.

Supply management is a Canada-wide risk management tool that ● (1740) is designed to protect agricultural markets from price fluctuations. By doing so, it guarantees a fair and stable income for farmers in exchange for their work and their products. In Canada, only the markets for dairy, table eggs, hatching eggs, and poultry, meaning chicken and turkey, are under supply manage‐ For example, without supply management, an American egg pro‐ ment. The system is based on three basic principles, often known as ducer that produces one million eggs a day could overrun the Cana‐ the three pillars. Dairy farmers used to give their elected represen‐ dian market, cut prices and ultimately take control. Border controls tatives a little three-legged stool like the ones used for milking are very important, and that is where the government always folds. cows years ago. If an MP displayed that symbol on their desk, it It caves, often using supply management as a bargaining chip. meant they supported supply management. Since the government is supposed to represent all Canadians and since supply management is a federal program, the Bloc Québécois The first pillar is production control via a quota system. Based on simply wants the Prime Minister and the Liberal party to keep the research about consumption, meaning consumer demand for dairy promise they have made more than once to stop making conces‐ products, the Canadian Dairy Commission distributes quotas to sions at the expense of supply-managed producers. 2354 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Private Members' Business On at least 20 occasions over the past 15 years, I have heard a nized how important it was for many different reasons, which I do prime minister or an agriculture minister commit to fully defending not think the Speaker will give me enough time to expand on. supply management in future negotiations of a treaty. That is not what happened in the last three agreements. The concessions made I ask my colleague if he would recognize the value of supply in these negotiations instead resulted in income losses for producers management in all the different regions of our country. That is an in the order of 8.4% to 10%. Some will say that Canada is very important component of it: that it is throughout Canada and there is vast. That is the argument we are given from time to time. We are great benefit for all Canadians. told that it is impossible to create effective Canada-wide policies that benefit all the provinces. What is more, some experts believe that applying one standardized program nationwide in agriculture [Translation] or in other sectors will not stand the test of time and will make it more difficult to resolve regional problems that crop up. That was Mr. Louis Plamondon: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member said that the main argument we were given for conceding part of supply the Prime Minister and the Minister of Agriculture are regularly re‐ management. viewing the supply management system, but it seems to me that they sometimes forget about that system during negotiations. The second argument is that supply management does not make a substantial contribution to Canada's gross domestic product. It represents approximately 2%, so that is a good excuse for sacrific‐ The member asked me whether this is important to all regions of ing a little bit in every negotiation. This argument fails to consider Quebec. Of course it is. In Alberta, for example, there are 1,000 that this is a very important economic sector for Quebec and On‐ dairy farmers. I remember going to a cocktail party for dairy farm‐ tario. Supply-managed goods account for about 40% of Quebec's ers during their conference in Ottawa, back when the Bloc intro‐ agricultural revenues, or $3.4 billion out of $8.9 billion. Quebec's duced its motion in 2005. I met farmers from Alberta who came to dairy sector has revenues of $2.4 billion. That is twice the amount thank the members of the Bloc for introducing the motion to fully of agricultural revenue from the pork sector, which is an excellent protect the supply management system. Unfortunately, in the last export sector and contributes $1.2 billion a year. three agreements, the government has made small 3% concessions, which represents about a 10% drop in revenue for all dairy farmers These are different agricultural markets, but the agricultural sec‐ under supply management across Canada. tor as a whole is very important. The problem also stems from the fact that most supply-managed production occurs in Ontario and Mr. Bernard Généreux (Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouras‐ Quebec, representing 70%. Crops such as beef, grains and oilseeds ka—Rivière-du-Loup, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. col‐ are grown for export. The government is always looking to expand league for his presentation. markets, but supply management must not be given up in exchange for these markets. That is the problem. I would like to remind him that, when the Conservative govern‐ Supply management has survived 16 agreements. It needs to sur‐ ment was negotiating free trade with our various European and vive any future agreements as well. This system accounts Asian partners, there was a provision to pay $4.3 billion in compen‐ for $8.7 billion of our GDP and $2 billion in economic spinoffs. sation to all supply-managed producers. The current Liberal gov‐ Without this policy, the agricultural sector could lose 58,000 to ernment also made compensating producers an election promise. 80,000 jobs. On top of that, half of this country's dairy exports The producers received a payment, but the rest has still not been would be compromised. paid out. We do not know when that will happen, because the min‐ ister is not able to tell us. In closing, I want to remind members that Canada is currently negotiating with five countries that are part of Mercosur, which also includes Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay, Venezuela and Bo‐ ● (1750) livia. This bill must be passed before these agreements are conclud‐ ed. I urge all members to unanimously support this bill, as we did Mr. Louis Plamondon: Mr. Speaker, I must tell my hon. col‐ with the previous motions. league that he is absolutely right. I remember very well the $4.3 bil‐ lion that the Conservatives promised during the negotiations with ● (1745) Europe. However, they were very slow to table it, and there was a [English] change of government. The government said that it would keep that promise. Again, that is going very slowly. It is more than slow. A Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Presi‐ first instalment was paid last year, but there was nothing this year. dent of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Lead‐ They are now talking about $1.8 billion instead of $4.3 billion. We er of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. know that supply-managed producers are losing $450 million per Speaker, supply management is an issue that the Government of year. The Minister of Agriculture urgently needs to speak with the Canada, our Prime Minister, the Minister of Agriculture and Agri- Minister of Finance. Food and so many others have advocated for, not only when we are in government but even in opposition, as it benefits our society to have a healthy supply management sector. In fact, if members go A budget will be tabled soon; an economic statement is coming back to the creation of supply management, they will find that it is on Monday. I hope that they will say something about this promise rooted in a Liberal government's bringing it forward. We recog‐ and that a concrete announcement will be made this year. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2355

Private Members' Business Mr. (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speak‐ larger than the auto sector. That just shows the significance of what er, a few days ago, the government announced that it was wrapping this means and the importance of having robust programs in place up negotiations with the United Kingdom on another free trade to support it. agreement. We have yet to see the text of the agreement, but the government tells us that dairy farmers have nothing to worry about. I remember that when CUSMA was negotiated, there were promis‐ I want to talk about the history of supply management for those es up until the last minute that the agreement would not have a neg‐ who might be watching and may not know, or for some urban col‐ ative impact on dairy farmers. Does the member share my doubts leagues who might not know as much about supply management about the government's fine words on this issue, and what does he and its benefits. It was created, as the parliamentary secretary men‐ think can dairy farmers expect from this agreement between tioned during questions and comments, in the 1970s by a Liberal Canada and the United Kingdom? government. At the time, there was a massive disconnect between the amount of supply that was being provided in the market and the Mr. Louis Plamondon: Mr. Speaker, I fully share the member's prices that were being returned to producers. The reason for creat‐ concerns. For now, the minister is trying to reassure us by saying ing rationality was because our supply managed sectors deal with that supply management is not affected by this agreement with perishable products and producers may not have been able to get England. Since England was part of the agreement with Europe, it them to market in time. This program was put in place to make sure should not get an extra share. England needs to get its share from there was an equitable program to support farmers, but also to give Europe, nothing more, so that nothing about the Canada-Europe the market certainty. agreement changes. However, I still have doubts, since nothing has been signed yet and all we have is a Liberal Party promise. A little piece of supply management is always affected. There have been critics. I would be naive to stand in the House, virtually, and suggest that people have not criticized this system Like him, I am crossing my fingers that this does not happen. and sought an alternative program to move forward, but I want to What worries me most is the negotiations that are under way with highlight some of the benefits of supply management. First of all, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Venezuela and Bolivia, which are for me, perhaps most importantly, it allows smaller family farms to known as the southern countries. Supply management may be af‐ still be able to contribute in the marketplace. Whether it is the milk fected, particularly poultry and egg producers. pooling agreements in the dairy sector or otherwise through the [English] SM5, supply management allows farmers that are in more rural and remote parts of the country to have equal access to markets. That is Mr. (Kings—Hants, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is always ideologically important to me, and it is important for our economy a privilege to bring greetings on behalf of the great people of to create that supply chain throughout rural Canada, from New‐ Kings—Hants, even if it is virtually, but that is the world we are foundland and Labrador, as we heard at the agriculture committee living in. this evening, all the way to Yukon. This is truly a national policy I would like to thank the member opposite for bringing forward that creates benefits. this legislation and giving me the opportunity to speak on the im‐ portance of supply management and what it means to rural commu‐ I also want to talk about the importance of what this means. Be‐ nities across the country. I was a little disappointed in the member fore I was in the House and had the privilege of serving as a mem‐ opposite's comments. He mentioned Ontario, Alberta and, of ber of Parliament, I was an outspoken advocate for this system and course, Quebec, but he did not mention the importance this has what it represents. It truly is the lifeblood of rural communities. It is across the country, including the communities that I represent here important that we are able to maintain it and keep it in place to sup‐ in Nova Scotia. I look forward, in the next nine and a half minutes, port our farmers. I will relate a quick personal story, if I may. to explaining what this industry means to the people I represent. I grew up in a region called East Hants in the Kings—Hants area. It has the highest concentration of dairy and poultry supply man‐ I was a competitive hockey player. I played junior hockey in a aged farms east of Quebec, so this is a very important sector for us. small community called Amherst, Nova Scotia, and had the good It is also a key piece of our identity. Not only is it an economic fortune to be billeted at a dairy farm just outside of town in Linden, driver in the sense of jobs and opportunities for producers, it is also Nova Scotia. I stayed on the farm, played junior hockey and got to a key piece of agricultural communities. This is not just in Kings— see the inner workings of a small family farm in rural Cumberland Hants. It is across the country. Going to high school, we would see County. I can attest to the hard work that our farmers put in and the tractors going up and down the road. Some of the students and col‐ importance of this system, which allows farms like that to exist. leagues that I went to high school with would bring their tractors to prom from whatever farm, but most importantly, from our supply ● (1755) managed sector. I do not mean to pick on the member opposite because his inten‐ There are critics who would suggest that if we were to get rid of tions were good in bringing this to the House, but he mentioned at supply management it would actually lead to a reduction in prices some point that this is a small percentage of our GDP. That may be at the retail level. I want to challenge some of those assumptions on the case, but $22 billion is the figure that I have in front of me, and the record here in the House. The ideology of some of the critics is is what the supply managed sector means to rural Canada. That is perhaps conservative and more free-market based. 2356 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Private Members' Business I am not against free-market principles, but there have been chal‐ I could highlight the programs we put in place, such as the dairy lenges. New Zealand, for example, went with a much more deregu‐ direct payment program, which is certainly extremely important. It lated model. It got rid of some of its supply managed system and was $345 million to help compensate for the trade access that was saw an increase in price at the retail level for milk supplies. We also given under the former Conservative government when it signed talk about the World Trade Organization, and this is one way to these, along with COVID supports. support farmers to be able to create an equitable price. There are other programs out there, such as the dairy margin pro‐ tection program in the United States. Maybe some of my colleagues will recall a bipartisan fight in 2012. There was a chance the farm I am proud to be part of a government focused on our supply bill would not go through Congress at the time. There was specula‐ managed producers. I mentioned dairy a lot, but that is not to say tion that milk prices would almost double in the United States with‐ poultry, eggs, broiler hens and turkeys are not important. It is all so out the subsidy provided. important and it all matters to the people I represent. I am pleased In Europe, there is a common agricultural policy that provides to see a piece of legislation in which we can talk about the impor‐ billions of dollars every year to producers. Other jurisdictions of tance of this system in rural Canada, and I would like to thank the the world choose to go about it a different way. When we consider member opposite for bringing this forward. things like the importance of looking at the environment and having sustainable means moving forward, supply management becomes even more in vogue in how important it is to be able to match our domestic demand to supply, and for sustainability and efficiency. I really appreciated the time to talk about a system that matters to I also want to challenge the notion there is not a competitive rural Canadians. As the rural caucus chair for the Liberal Party, I model built within the supply managed sector as it relates to the am very pleased to bring some remarks to the House tonight. dairy industry. Many critics would suggest it is a system that allows all farmers to benefit and to succeed. It is simply not the case. The way the Canadian Dairy Commission helps set the price of milk, or I should say the kilograms of butterfat in different products, is based on a model that only allows 70% of farmers to break even af‐ ● (1800) ter their costs of capital are considered. This means that, for 30% of farms, if one is not good at manag‐ ing costs, whether a larger farm or a smaller one, it is going to be challenging to get the money to recapitalize infrastructure. It is a [Translation] myth, and I want to put on the record that there is not a competitive model built within the supply managed system. I want to turn to why I am proud to be standing with a govern‐ ment that has fought since 1970 for supply management. When we look at CUSMA and what that trade relationship looks like, the Mr. (Mégantic—L'Érable, CPC): Mr. Speaker, president of the United States wanted to use the word dairy. This it is high time we had a man for prime minister who behaves like was important for him politically in being able to get concessions someone who understands the farming community and especially from the Canadian government. Canadians from rural areas. I contrast that with the Conservative government under CETA and the CPTPP. At the time, I believe the member for Abbotsford was the minister responsible for international trade. It was a much different situation, in terms of pressure, and what the relationships Our message is clear and will remain clear: Canada must restore of those trade deals meant versus our relationship with the largest agriculture to its former glory and give it the recognition it de‐ trading partner in the world. serves. It is just wrong that neither the current agriculture minister nor her predecessor were directly involved in the negotiations for Our minister for trade at the time worked extremely hard. We did the trade agreements that became the TPP, CETA and CUSMA. everything to keep the integrity of supply management in place. I contrast that with two trade deals that of course are important, and I would never suggest they are not, but the pressure to get rid of our supply management, or give concessions, was nowhere near the same. The future , the leader of the Conserva‐ When I talk with farmers in my riding, they seem to understand tive Party, will rectify this situation. We are here tonight to talk the difference and how the government was between a rock and a about supply management. Before I talk about the Liberals' failures hard place, including on products and things that matter to the on supply management, of which there are many, I want to clearly member from the Bloc such as aluminum, for example. state our party's position on supply management. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2357

Private Members' Business The Conservative leader made clear commitments during the [English] leadership race. He made it clear and reiterated, in his discussions with the dairy industry, that there will be no further concessions in future trade agreement negotiations. He will protect supply man‐ I met with a representative of the powerful House Ways and agement. He will respect supply management for our dairy and Means Committee of the U.S. Congress at the beginning of the ne‐ poultry farms and, most importantly, he will make sure that all farm gotiations. The message they sent us was to stay calm, but then the families are involved in trade negotiations, or any other program af‐ Prime Minister of Canada got involved. fecting the sector, through the Minister of Agriculture, who will be at the table, not sitting somewhere else, away from the negotiations. He will allow more flexibility in allocating the management of farm assistance programs. He will not create a milk lottery, as the previ‐ He wanted an agreement that was progressive and environmen‐ ous government did. Above all, he pledged to pay out all the tally friendly, and he got the attention of Donald Trump. He gave in promised compensation, while providing flexibility in how it is al‐ on supply management, and Canada had to struggle just to remain located so it is done in the way producers want. in this important agreement for our economy. Dairy, egg and poul‐ try producers paid the price as the Liberals modified the existing Much more than that, a Conservative government will raise the laws to be able to give up more of our market to the United States. possibility and want to renegotiate the overall limits on skim milk This is the reality. powder exports that were given away by the current government. A Conservative government will modernize and improve agricultural risk management programs to help producers deal with all the [Translation] crises they are currently facing. A Conservative government, and I think that this is very impor‐ tant right now, will also ask the Competition Bureau to investigate The main purpose of Bill C-216 is to protect supply manage‐ the impacts of abusive trade practices concentrated in the grocery ment. That is also the Conservative Party's goal. industry. We know about it, and we are hearing about it these days: huge amounts of money are being demanded just to put products on grocery store shelves. This is unacceptable. [English] ● (1805) [English] We do not believe that Bill C-216 is a good bill to protect supply We believe it is very important to protect the food security of management and Canadian producers. Canada and we recognize that supply management is an element that is essential to the success of Canadian agriculture. [Translation] [Translation] Unfortunately, although Bill C-216 sets out to protect supply management in the context of future trade agreements, it could It is important to protect our family farms because the Liberal wind up doing the opposite. Party does not keep its promises and is unreliable when it comes to First, everyone here in the House knows that any new trade its relationships with supply-managed farmers, and because farmers agreement would be the subject of new legislation in which the were regrettably the only ones who were sacrificed at the negotiat‐ Liberal government could amend Bill C-216 as it sees fit. That is ing table by the Liberal government's negotiating teams for the new what happened with the Canada-United States-Mexico agreement. Canada-U.S.-Mexico agreement. The government proved that when it shamelessly opened up supply management by giving the Americans a say in the tariff schedule and when it shamelessly allowed the United States to limit our ex‐ In Quebec, you cannot go one kilometre between two municipal‐ ports of skim milk powder. ities without seeing farms, dairy farms and all kinds of farms. Farmers reign supreme in Quebec's rural regions. If they were not Second, if this bill passes, we can be sure that potential trade there to pay taxes, there would be no more rural regions. If they partners will target supply management right off the bat and were not there to maintain roads, there would be no more rural re‐ counter with their own protectionist measures. This is like drawing gions. We need our farmers. the other side's attention to a specific negotiation issue that could well force Canada to agree to new concessions, which would be written into a bill approving the framework agreement, and all be‐ cause we ourselves put the issue on the table. The Conservative Party of Canada heard the message of produc‐ ers from all the regions in Quebec. I heard it in Mégantic— That is exactly what happened during the latest negotiations for L'Érable. Like the majority of my colleagues, I received 50 or so the Canada-United States-Mexico free trade agreement. Members letters from producers in my riding. We have all gotten them. Their may recall that the United States' first target was Mexico. message was very clear. 2358 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Private Members' Business People wrote that Canada's dairy farmers have had to deal with The Liberals are all talk and no action. We cannot trust them. At the fact that major concessions were made in recent trade agree‐ minimum, farmers should be able to get answers from the govern‐ ments. By 2024, 18% of their domestic dairy production will have ment to ensure the economic viability of their farms. That is the top been ceded to foreign dairy producers. They are the ones who will priority for helping them to get through the pandemic. provide the milk in dairy products that will end up on the shelves in our grocery stores. The concessions amount to a loss in revenue es‐ I would like to end with a quote from the chair of the Produc‐ timated at $450 million a year for dairy farmers and their families. teurs de lait du Québec, who aptly described farmers' immediate That loss has a major and lasting impact on their farms and their needs. He said: communities, including their capacity to plan for the future of their families. For more than two years, and more recently in the Speech We should not have to fight this battle over again every year to obtain compen‐ from the Throne, dairy farmers have been promised compensation. sation that was already announced! Our farms also have to budget and need to know Dairy farmers were pleased to see that full compensation remains a whether they can count on the money that was promised to them for the next seven priority, but actions speak louder than words. years.

That is where things go sideways in the letter we received. ● (1810)

The letter goes on to say that, in 2019, the government an‐ The Liberals are incapable of keeping their promises, but the nounced compensation spread out over eight years of $1.75 billion Conservatives will keep their promises to supply-managed farmers. for the CETA and the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Despite requests for clarification and even though the first year was delivered, the Mr. Daniel Blaikie (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speak‐ farmers have yet to receive any detail on the balance for the re‐ er, I am very happy to have this opportunity to talk about Canada's maining seven years. The uncertainty that comes with such an ap‐ supply management system and to support a bill that will prevent proach makes it very hard to plan the future of their farms. the government from further undermining the agricultural sector during free trade agreement negotiations. Every member of the House received the same set of letters from dairy farmers across Canada. They are worried. Supply management is very important to a number of agricultur‐ The letter ends with the statement that farmers believe that a al sectors in Canada. It ensures a decent income for farmers and fair promise made should be a promise kept. The time has come to keep prices for consumers. It is part of a vision for a more co-operative their promises. What are the goods? What will the Liberals deliver? economy. The Liberals' compensation plan was announced just before the 2019 election. They promised to cut a cheque the day after the elec‐ Supply management is also part of the NDP way of thinking. A tion. There has been nothing more since the election. There has long time ago, the NDP's predecessor, the Co-operative Common‐ been total silence. There has not been one word about the seven wealth Federation, included individuals such as Thérèse Casgrain. other years or about compensation for 2020, even though there are More recently, former MP Ruth Ellen Brosseau was a staunch de‐ fewer than 40 days left in the year. There has been not one word fender of the supply management sector, specifically dairy produc‐ about 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, or 2026. There has not been tion. one word about the next phase of the plan. I am only talking about dairy producers. There has not been one word about egg and poul‐ The agricultural sector is a very important sector, but the Canadi‐ try producers who were also promised compensation. They have an government has sold it out repeatedly during international trade not even seen the shadow of a red cent despite repeated promises agreement negotiations. It happened with the Comprehensive and by the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, the Compre‐ hensive Economic and Trade Agreement between Canada and Eu‐ Dairy processors have been treated to the same worrisome si‐ rope, or CETA, and again with the recent Canada-United States- lence by the Liberals, who boast about defending supply manage‐ Mexico agreement. ment, but only talk about it when an election is on the horizon. We may hear about it because we have a minority government and there could be an election sooner than we think. Again, the Liberals The markets in other countries, and especially the dairy market take an interest in dairy producers only when there is an election. in the United States, are very competitive. The United States would like to see us adopt their dairy market. As a result of all of the con‐ Did I take the time to talk about the agreement between Canada, cessions that the Canadian government made while negotiating free the United States and Mexico? That is the most recent trade agree‐ trade agreements, our industry has been getting more similar to the ment where the Liberals caved on supply management. Has anyone U.S. market. heard the Liberal government talking about a compensation plan? Have we heard anything about the full compensation promised by Dairy farmers in the U.S. are currently in crisis, and some of the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food that she mentioned again them are taking their own lives because their farms are no longer today in the House? Where is their plan? The plan for the agree‐ profitable. This is not because they cannot produce enough, but be‐ ment between Canada, the United States and Mexico simply does cause they produce too much. The economic model would have not exist because the Liberals are incapable of keeping their them produce more and more and try to develop export markets, promises. but that model does not work. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2359

Private Members' Business Some Canadian dairy farmers own businesses that are smaller try to give my speech in six minutes, knowing that I will have the than those in the United States. They have a stable, decent income. remaining four minutes another day. They produce all of the dairy products that Canadians need. This system works very well. I am going to address everyone. This is the moment of truth. This The supply management industry is under attack for essentially is the time for action. We are sick of the old promises and old poli‐ ideological reasons. The supply management system is important, cies. Today, a promise was made to defend supply management. and we must do more. However, the promise was made by members of the political party that made the first concessions, so I have a hard time believing Canadian governments of all stripes have consistently failed to them. properly protect the supply management system. ● (1815) I want my speech to unite people. We need to listen to the farm‐ What can we do? ers who are on the ground, much like we should be listening to members when they are giving speeches. The president of the The government does not give Parliament much space or much Union des producteurs agricoles made a public statement this of a role in these negotiation processes. We saw this with CUSMA, morning, calling on all parties in the House to adopt this bill, be‐ and we are now seeing it again with the agreement between the cause farmers are tired of promises. United Kingdom and Canada. Parliament often does not get to see the text of these free trade agreements before they are signed. By On November 18, the chair of the Producteurs de lait du Québec then, there is very little time left to debate the bill before the com‐ issued a press release. It was not a partisan message urging people ponents of the agreement are implemented. to vote for the Bloc Québécois. It simply encouraged members to When could Parliament have an influence on the negotiating pro‐ vote in favour of this fundamental and necessary bill. We do not cess? It has not been for lack of trying in the past. In five years, I want to hear that laws can be amended. Come on. We just voted on have seen several members ask questions about this issue while ne‐ a bill on training for judges. No one pointed out that a future gov‐ gotiations were under way. Once the agreement is signed and pro‐ ernment could repeal that act. We passed it, and we are moving for‐ vided to Parliament, parliamentarians and Canadians, it is too late, ward. and that is when we see that concessions have been made in the supply-managed sectors. Passing legislation would give us uniquely effective ways of pro‐ tecting the industry. We want concrete action. I may seem angry, I think that Bill C-216 is important for defending not only supply but that anger is justified because it is on behalf of farmers and pro‐ management, but also the concept, which I strongly support, that cessors. These people are waiting. Parliament needs to be more involved in the negotiation process.

I heard my Conservative colleague say that he did not like this As mentioned earlier, we are not just talking about breaches in bill because if the issue of supply management were put on the ta‐ supply management. In the most recent agreement, the government ble, our free trade partners might target these sectors more. Howev‐ went so far as to limit our exports to other countries, countries that er, I do not think that we can defend supply management by ignor‐ are not even part of the agreement. That makes no sense whatsoev‐ ing it. That does not seem to me to be an effective strategy, and it er. What is the next step? This request to limit exports of milk pro‐ does not inspire much confidence. teins was made because of class 7. The Americans wanted to limit our exports to other countries because of the existence of class 7. If Parliament wants to focus on the supply-managed sectors and do everything it can to defend supply management, given that we have a government that regularly makes promises about supply The Government of Canada caved on both fronts. Not only did management and then does not keep them, this bill will allow us to we lose class 7, but we now have export limits imposed on us. Fur‐ truly say that Parliament supports supply management. thermore, it is unbelievable that the Canada-United States-Mexico agreement, or CUSMA, came into effect on July 1 rather than Au‐ I will once again thank my colleague from Bécancour—Nico‐ gust 1 like it was supposed to, according to all of the commitments let—Saurel for introducing this bill. As I said at the beginning, I am that had been made. It is shameful that we have gotten to this point. very pleased and proud to support Bill C-216. ● (1820) Pierre Falardeau said, “If you lie down, they will stomp on you. The Deputy Speaker: Before we resume debate with the hon. If you remain standing and resist, they will hate you, but they will member for Berthier—Maskinongé, I must inform him that he has call you 'sir'.” In the latest negotiations, the Canadian government approximately six minutes remaining before the end of the time chose to lie down. That is a problem. It is time to stand up. We will provided for private members' business. He will have his remaining help the government with this bill. The solution is right here. This time when the House next gets back to debate on the question. is the moment of truth. When the time comes to vote on Bill C-216, we will know who truly stands up for agriculture. This is what the The hon. member for Berthier—Maskinongé. sector wants. People need it. A total of 18% of the dairy market is Mr. Yves Perron (Berthier—Maskinongé, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it being given up. For other sectors, it is between 7% and 10%. That is already a challenge for me to not go over my allotted time. I will is huge. Nobody is keeping promises. 2360 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Adjournment Proceedings This evening, the Liberals are telling us that we must vote for ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS them, that they are not interested in this legislation, that they will deal with the supply management issue and that they will defend it. A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed How can anyone stand for that yet again? That means nothing to to have been moved. farmers, which is why they are ending their silence today, speaking out about a bill and calling on all parties here to set partisanship [Translation] aside and work together. Supply management is the lifeblood of our regions. It keeps our rural communities alive. OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ● (1825) Mr. Luc Berthold (Mégantic—L'Érable, CPC): Mr. Speaker, When we talk about supply management, we often think of farm‐ this evening, I am speaking about a very important subject that I ers. Some might say they have an advantage, because there are quo‐ raised during oral question period a while ago. tas. No food is wasted most of the time. Of course, there was a small crisis this year under exceptional circumstances. Still, the During the pandemic, we realized that Canadians with very spe‐ supply management system has proven its effectiveness, since cific needs were struggling to get answers in French from various farmers were able to adjust very quickly. Unlike most other sectors departments. French also seems to have been dropped at meetings, of the economy, they did not ask the government for any assistance. and that is a serious problem. All they want is the compensation that they were promised but that has not been delivered. We have gotten all kinds of reports showing that during the cri‐ sis, it became harder and harder for francophones to receive an‐ How can we trust a government that tells us not to worry, that it swers in French and for anglophones in minority situations to re‐ will compensate us, but that has yet to pay out one red cent two ceive clear answers in their language. years on? The government has delivered only one cheque out of eight in the dairy sector. It has given nothing to egg farmers, noth‐ That is a very serious problem. We informed the President of the ing to poultry farmers, and nothing to processors. The amounts Treasury Board and asked him for answers about this. Unfortunate‐ were determined over a year ago, but nothing is happening. By pro‐ ly, the answers I was given during oral question period were very viding legislative protection for supply management, we are forcing vague. future governments to show some backbone. That is the solution. How much time do I have left, Mr. Speaker? This leads me to a hot topic in the media, namely the importance of the French language for Quebec and, in particular, the position of ● (1830) the Liberal Party of Canada and its members on the notion that The Deputy Speaker: Unfortunately, the time has expired. I French is declining in Quebec. normally indicate how much time is left. In a couple of days, we will have an opportunity to hold a very The hon. member for Berthier—Maskinongé on a point of order. important debate on the decline of French in Montreal. Anyone Mr. Yves Perron: Mr. Speaker, it is very hard to deliver a speech who has had the opportunity to go to Montreal in recent months— and follow a written text when so many people are speaking very perhaps a little less often in recent weeks because of the pandem‐ loudly all around. I have been wanting to say that for a long time. ic—can attest to how much rarer it is to be addressed in French in This is a sensitive topic, and that made it even more difficult. the great city of Montreal. It is important for us to recognize this.

I think this is an important cause, and the fact that people are We have just one important question for the government and that chatting while we are having this debate speaks to what the other is the following: Will we get its bill to improve the Official Lan‐ parties really think. I wonder about the lack of respect this shows guages Act before Christmas, yes or no? That is what I asked in not just to MPs, but also to the farmers. I just wanted to draw that oral question period, and I hope that tonight I will finally get the to the attention of my esteemed colleagues. final, clear answer that, yes, the Liberals will introduce their bill be‐ The Deputy Speaker: I understand what my colleague, the hon. fore the holidays. member for Berthier—Maskinongé, is saying. He is absolutely right. When an hon. member has the floor, he is the only one al‐ ● (1835) lowed to speak. I would appreciate it if the other members recog‐ Mrs. Élisabeth Brière (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minis‐ nized this reality in the House. ter of Economic Development and Official Languages (Eco‐ The hon. member for Berthier—Maskinongé will have four min‐ nomic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Que‐ utes to conclude his speech when the House resumes debate on this bec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to respond to my topic. colleague from Mégantic—L'Érable. The time provided for the consideration of Private Members' For our government, our two official languages are the greatest Business has now expired. The order is dropped to the bottom of expression of our values as a country, our values of collaboration, the order of precedence on the Order Paper. openness and respect. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2361

Adjournment Proceedings It is precisely because of this central role of French and English Mrs. Élisabeth Brière: Mr. Speaker, our government and public in our common identity that our government has always taken the servants are taking proactive measures to ensure respect of our two necessary measures to support our communities. It is also for these official languages. We react quickly and firmly to compliance is‐ reasons that we have committed to modernizing and strengthening sues and remind federal institutions of their official languages obli‐ the Official Languages Act so that it may better serve Canadians. gations. Our government took note of the recommendations made by the Commissioner of Official Languages in his report and we I would remind my colleague that we made historic investments are fully committed to responding to them in a constructive and co- in official languages through our action plan for official languages operative manner. 2018-2023 entitled “Investing in Our Future”. We revised the offi‐ cial languages regulations that govern the delivery of federal ser‐ vices in order to better serve Canadians in the official language of [English] their choice. We also brought back the long form census and added linguistic questions to the 2021 census that will help better enumer‐ THE ENVIRONMENT ate those who are entitled to an education in the minority language. Mr. (Saskatoon West, CPC): Mr. Speaker, it Our commitment to better serve Canadians in the official lan‐ was my privilege to ask a question in the House a few weeks ago guage of their choice has been crystal clear since 2015. We showed about the trucking industry and how it relates to environmental pol‐ this commitment by making it a priority to review the official lan‐ icy. guages regulations governing the Government of Canada’s commu‐ nications with and services to the public. In doing so, we created the ideal conditions to better serve Canadians in the language of One thing that we can all agree on is that most Canadians are at their choice. In the early days of this pandemic, we made sure that the point where they believe that some plan is needed and that some critical information was available to Canadians in the official lan‐ actions need to be taken to help our environment and to reduce the guage of their choice, and we are continuing to do so. amount of greenhouse gases we have. There may be disagreement on exactly what to do, but people would more or less agree that We have addressed every situation that could impede information something needs to be done. on issues affecting the health of Canadians, and we have taken swift action to support the arts and culture sectors so that our orga‐ nizations in linguistic minority communities do not suffer too much It was interesting to see Bill C-12 introduced by the government, in this pandemic. a bill that had no plan and no targets. It was missing a lot of things, including consequences. If there were targets that were missed, We have received broad support for the assistance we have pro‐ there were no consequences for that in the bill. I found it ironic that vided, which even the Commissioner of Official Languages has ac‐ the government has been unable to achieve the targets that Prime knowledged. I might add that, thanks to this emergency support Minister Harper set years ago for 2030. The government is not on fund for arts and culture, about $10 million has been directly in‐ track to hit those targets either. vested in nearly 500 organizations in official language minority communities. The trucking industry is significant in our country. Transporta‐ We agree with the Commissioner of Official Languages. The tion accounts for about a quarter of the greenhouse gases produced COVID-19 crisis has shown the importance of communication with in Canada, and of that quarter, the trucking industry produces a sig‐ the public and the delivery of services to Canadians. That is pre‐ nificant amount. Therefore, the trucking industry is a key player cisely why we are investing heavily to train our public servants, when it comes to reducing greenhouse gases in Canada. Roughly amend our laws, create the right conditions to support the health 90% of our goods travel by truck at some point in their lifespan. and vitality of our official language communities and support offi‐ Ten million trucks cross the border every year between Canada and cial language learning. the United States, so there is a significant number of trucks on the Mr. Luc Berthold: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her road and they produce a significant amount of greenhouse gases. answer. The Liberals are prepared to amend laws and do a lot of things. As I spoke to members of the trucking industry, they were very Are they prepared to recognize that the Quebec president of the much interested in playing a role in looking forward and develop‐ Liberal Party of Canada made a mistake when she said that Bill 101 ing future technologies and future plans to reduce the amount of was oppressive? Are all members from Quebec prepared to say that carbon from trucking in the environment. Decarbonization of the the member for Saint-Laurent went too far, that she never should trucking industry is what they would say. They would like to be a have said what she did, and that she is completely out of touch with part of it. They would like to be at the table discussing plans for the reality of the French language in Quebec? As a way for the gov‐ this. They know that, for their industry to succeed in the future, ernment to recognize all that, to recognize the mistakes that were they are going to have to make changes and they want to be a part made and to make amends, we are asking for one thing and that is of those discussions. What they are asking for is to have a task that a bill to modernize the Official Languages Act be introduced force of engine manufacturers, the government, environmental before Christmas. groups, trucking industry players and drivers, all the players togeth‐ er around the table, coming up with a plan and a strategy for how to My question is simple. Will the government do that, yes or no? decarbonize the trucking industry going forward. 2362 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Adjournment Proceedings A few weeks ago, at the environment committee, I asked Marc It is disappointing to see the hon. member talk about the environ‐ D'Iorio, director general of energy and transportation at the Depart‐ ment. I really hope that he moves forward and he encourages his ment of the Environment, if there were any plans to have a task party and his leader to move forward on a credible plan for the en‐ force such as this. He said, “I'm not aware of direct work to create a vironment, because we have not seen that yet. working group. However, there are a number of measures being considered”, and he went on basically to say that they are going to I would like to thank the member for the opportunity to speak to come up with a plan and then they will tell others what it is. the question. As such, we are more than willing to discuss with the trucking industry, and we are more than willing to have discussions I asked him to clarify. I said, “Are you saying that there have on the environment. We have had a credible plan so far. We will been no discussions to create a working group to get industry play‐ continue to move forward and we look forward to working with ers in line with this, no efforts to get all of the people at the table to various sectors of the transportation industry across the board. help develop these types of regulation?” ● (1845) He said, “Not that I'm aware of.” Mr. Brad Redekopp: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the I asked the same question of the Minister of Environment and member would be disappointed that I would be talking about the Climate Change, and his answer was that “obviously there is a need environment. I think the environment is something we care about for consultation”, but that there was no plan for that. on all sides of the House, and Conservatives, if members look back in history, have a very strong record on the environment. I also find When we come up with something as important as a plan for re‐ it ironic that the Liberal government has been unable to put a plan ducing carbon in the trucking industry, it is important that all the in place to achieve even Prime Minister Harper's standards for players have a role to play, that all the players' input is gathered and 2030, which were set many years ago. considered, and that a good plan is developed, because we have to make sure, not only that we reduce greenhouse gases but that the plan is workable. It has to allow industry to survive and produce its It is an interesting conversation. However, I would reiterate that service at a price that is going to work and that customers will be it is one thing to set a plan and then hope that everybody can able to pay. If government goes in and just creates regulations and achieve it, but it is a far better strategy to get all the players around dumps it on the industry, that is going to be a problem. the table. I would encourage this government to follow through on that, to speak to everybody and get them around the table, so that Therefore, I would hope that the government would see this and when plans are developed, they are workable for industry and they see the logic of getting all the players at the table up front to devel‐ achieve the goals that they set out to achieve. It is my insistence op a plan together, so that everybody has a say in it and a good plan that the government look at this task force concept with the truck‐ can be developed. Then we will have no need to rework the legisla‐ ing industry. tion later. Mr. : Mr. Speaker, it is rich that the hon. member My question for the government is the same question: Is the gov‐ talks about meeting targets, when his party has voted against every ernment planning to have a task force made up of all these industry major effort to meet those targets and develop programs to meet players as it develops regulations for the trucking industry? those targets.

● (1840) Of course, we will meet with industry. Of course, we will look Mr. Chris Bittle (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of for better ways to meet those targets and exceed those targets. Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate the hon. member Canadians want clean air and clean water, but one would not know asked us to prepare a response to a question on the air sector and that by looking at the Conservatives' track record. then came with a question on the trucking industry. COVID-19 EMERGENCY RESPONSE I find it ironic that the hon. member wants to talk about the envi‐ ronment. His party has brought no effort to the table to address cli‐ Mr. Gord Johns (Courtenay—Alberni, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it mate change. I appreciate that he and his party are finally taking an is an honour and privilege to rise again, after over 40 times now, to interest in reducing greenhouse gases. He knows we are the party stand up for small businesses, the unsung heroes of the COVID-19 that put a price on carbon pollution. His party wants to make it free pandemic, which closed their doors to protect public health. to pollute. We were glad to see the government finally fix its flawed, broken I know the transportation industry is eager to move forward to commercial rent program that was landlord-driven to make it ten‐ decarbonize, and the minister is more than willing to discuss with ant-driven, but we are extremely disappointed that the government all sectors of the industry, from the air sector to the trucking sector, will not backdate it to April 1. Many of these businesses are in ar‐ and shipping. We have made announcements across the various ar‐ rears with their landlords or riddled with debt, yet the government eas of transportation and I know that, as a government, we are fo‐ refuses to go backward, even though it knows that most of the busi‐ cused on significant investments. We have invested heavily, as a nesses are in deep trouble, especially with the second wave. The government, in public transit infrastructure and made historic an‐ Minister of Finance and Deputy Prime Minister said the govern‐ nouncements. The last Parliament alone, there was $70 billion to‐ ment is moving forward, but that debt is moving forward with small ward our environment plan. business owners, who did not get any help. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2363

Adjournment Proceedings I want to talk about the businesses that were completely left out: To break from my prepared remarks for a moment, let me first start-ups. There is a whole subset of businesses that did their part, extend my empathy to the business owners he mentioned who are started up and closed their doors for public health. However, any of struggling in his own community. He can rest assured that I am them that opened after March 1 or later and closed their doors for having similar conversations with businesses and have been having public health, or were ready to open after March 15, were prevent‐ them from the outset of this pandemic. ed from getting any of the programs. This is totally unacceptable, and I want to talk about a couple of them. However, the suggestion, implicitly or explicitly, that we have abandoned small businesses is disingenuous in the extreme. The Graham Hafey opened V2V Black Hops Brewing, down in hon. member knows that to help keep Canadians safe, we decided Langford. He is a veteran. He served in the Canadian military and to make it more affordable for businesses to do the right thing and used his life savings to open a for-profit social venture where part shut down or reduce traffic through their premises. of the profits go to helping veterans with PTSD. He has already do‐ nated $6,500, but he has not gotten any help through the commer‐ We did through Bill C-9, which just received royal assent a few cial rent program or the wage subsidy, and has not been able to ac‐ days ago. It extends the wage subsidy to next summer and, impor‐ cess the loan program. His business is looking at going bankrupt. tantly, creates the new Canada emergency rent subsidy. This is go‐ We are in the middle of the second wave and it has closed its doors, ing to provide a subsidy of up to 65% to businesses that have lost because of the health order from Dr. Bonnie Henry, to protect pub‐ revenue as a result of this pandemic and up to 90%, with the addi‐ lic health. He is getting no help. tional lockdown support, to those that have been ordered to close as a result of a public health order. Another constituent of mine, Lisa Jaster from Courtenay, owns The Lost Faucet sauna house. She opened in February 2020. She With respect to the wage subsidy, it is contributing directly to cannot get the CEBA loan and has paid thousands of dollars to con‐ help 3.8 million Canadian workers stay on the payroll. It does not tractors. She does not have a fighting chance without any support. just help them keep getting paid. It also helps their employers retain She has been completely abandoned by the government. and rehire them if they had to furlough them to make ends meet throughout this pandemic. I am thinking about my colleague from Victoria, who has been fighting really hard for Peter Wood, who owns Bear & Joey Cafe in We have advanced the Canada emergency response benefit, Victoria. He put his life savings into developing this business. He which self-employed people were eligible for. It has helped keep opened in March and has been doing takeout. He has 30 staff mem‐ food on the table for nine million Canadians. We have advanced the bers. Now B.C. is in the second phase of the lockdown and he is Canada emergency business account to provide interest-free loans, paying $11,500 a month in rent. He cannot get any help from the partially forgivable loans, and we are now increasing them government. His business has been abandoned, like many business‐ from $40,000 to $60,000, up to $20,000 of which will be forgiv‐ es across this country. able.

These businesses actually have the ability to demonstrate that The reality is that we have done what we can to meet many they are genuine and have invested in small business through pre‐ needs of many businesses. We have even established the regional senting one or more of the following: proof of loans and financing, relief and recovery fund for businesses that did not qualify for some proof of long-term leases and contracts for building and construc‐ of the supports I mentioned. tion. They often demonstrate that they are going to be impacted by the second wave by comparing revenue from one period to another, While I appreciate fully that the hon. member has the best of in‐ because some of them have been open for several months now. tentions in trying to defend the small businesses in his community, I However, with the winter months ahead, they have had to reduce do not believe it is appropriate, and in fact I think it is ludicrous, to capacity or close their doors. They are demonstrating, post-2020, suggest our government has abandoned small businesses, as we that they are operating at a loss and are not going to be able to keep have launched more support for them than any other government in their staff. the history of our country. The sense of urgency for these businesses could not be greater. Small businesses should know they have a friend in our govern‐ Why is the government abandoning them? It is unfair. These busi‐ ment. We have been there for them from day one of this pandemic nesses have invested in our communities in our country and they and we will be there for them until it is over. are job creators. The government need to step up to the plate. We have solutions and we want to work with the government. We hope Mr. Gord Johns: Mr. Speaker, I have a lot of respect for the par‐ it will do something to support these small businesses. liamentary secretary, but clearly the government is tone deaf. He did not hear what I had to say. Small businesses that started after ● (1850) March 15 have been abandoned. They have not been able to access Mr. Sean Fraser (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the wage subsidy. They have not been able to access the loan pro‐ Finance and to the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and As‐ gram. They have not been able to access the commercial rent pro‐ sociate Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. gram, even the new one. Even Bill C-9 does not help those busi‐ colleague for his intervention on behalf of small businesses in nesses. They have been completely abandoned. He needs to address Canada. what the Liberals are going to do for them. 2364 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply We kicked and screamed so the wage subsidy would go from Québécois and the New Democratic Party. After that, we will fol‐ 10% to 75% and so the Liberals would fix the commercial rent pro‐ low the usual proportional rotation. gram and expand the CEBA program. The member can count on me to be kicking and screaming until they fix their programs to [Translation] help support the start-ups that have been completely abandoned by the government. I will be back here tomorrow and will be back here Pursuant to order made earlier today, within each 15-minute peri‐ the week after. Until the government helps them, the New od, each party may allocate time to one or more of its members for Democrats will be in their corner. speeches or for questions and answers.

The Liberals need to stop patting themselves on the back and In the case of speeches, members of the party to which the period start doing things to fix these broken programs so the people who is allocated may speak one after the other, but the time allocated for need the help the most get it. speeches must not exceed 10 minutes. The Chair would appreciate ● (1855) it if the first member to speak in each period would indicate how that time will be used, particularly if the time will be shared. Mr. Sean Fraser: Mr. Speaker, we have been listening to feed‐ back from Canadians from the very beginning. The hon. member The order also specifies that, when the time is used for questions drew attention to the fact that when we listened to stakeholders we and answers, the minister's answer should approximately reflect the increased the wage subsidy from 10% to 75%. time taken by the question. I would note here that the Minister of With respect to the emergency business account, we have in‐ Fisheries and Oceans will be joining the debate remotely. As such, creased the threshold from $40,000 to $60,000, and widely expand‐ there will be pauses from time to time for connecting to the debate. ed eligibility. With respect to the Canada emergency rent subsidy, In addition, the Chair will receive no quorum calls, dilatory mo‐ we have now changed the program to make it tenant-oriented, with tions or requests for unanimous consent. a direct application to make it more accessible. [English] We are going to continue to listen to how these programs can be improved. In fact, we have made adjustments to some of them to I also wish to indicate that in committee of the whole, comments help new businesses that initially did not qualify on the basis of a should be addressed to the Chair as they always are in normal de‐ year-to-year comparison so they could compare their revenue with bates in the chamber. I ask for everyone's co-operation in upholding that from earlier months, pre-pandemic, in the same year. all the established standards of decorum, parliamentary language and behaviour. It is a challenging thing to help businesses through the pandemic, but we are going to continue to listen to small business stakeholders We will now begin tonight's session. so we can implement policies that will save as many businesses as possible and allow many workers to remain on the payroll so they The House in committee of the whole, pursuant to Standing Or‐ can put food on the table for their families. der 81(4), consideration in committee of the whole of all votes un‐ The Deputy Speaker: Pursuant to an order made Monday, April der Department of Fisheries and Oceans in the main estimates for 20, 2020, and Standing Order 81(4), the motion to adjourn the the fiscal year ending March 31, 2021. House is now deemed to have been withdrawn and the House will now resolve itself into committee of the whole to study all votes The hon. Leader of the Opposition. under Department of Fisheries and Oceans in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2021. Hon. Erin O'Toole (Leader of the Opposition, CPC): Mr. Chair, this Parliament has been gripped by the disputes over the I do now leave the Chair for the House to resolve itself into com‐ fishery in Atlantic Canada and in Nova Scotia. This is important to mittee of the whole. all Canadians and to rural communities. This is why I am proud that we have chosen the minister to provide direction on what the government is doing to resolve a crisis to provide for an indigenous fishery, but also to ensure that the lifeblood of rural communities in GOVERNMENT ORDERS Nova Scotia and Atlantic Canada are preserved. [English] I am going to start with a question for the minister. BUSINESS OF SUPPLY

FISHERIES AND OCEANS—MAIN ESTIMATES, 2020-21 Every time someone in the House rises, it is a special occasion to represent one's constituents. Perhaps the most special moment for (Consideration in committee of the whole of all votes under Fish‐ most members is their maiden speech, the first time a new MP gets eries and Oceans in the main estimates, Mr. in the to speak in the House of Commons and what the member uses that chair) opportunity for. The Chair: Today's debate is a general one on all votes under Department of Fisheries and Oceans. The first round will begin What was the minister's first speech in the House of Commons as with the official opposition, followed by the government, the Bloc a new MP? November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2365

Business of Supply ● (1900) I have met with harvesters from right across the country, not just Hon. (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and in Atlantic Canada. It is an extremely vital role that I have the con‐ the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Mr. Chair, when I was first versations with commercial harvesters. That is something I contin‐ elected in 2015, my maiden speech, I believe, was on how proud I ue to do— was to represent my community, and that still stands today. As the member for South Shore—St. Margarets, it is extremely important The Chair: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. to me and I will continue to do the best I can to represent my com‐ munity. Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, I am looking for the number of Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, the member's first speech was on meetings with commercial harvesters in rural Nova Scotia. the lobster fishery. She said: Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I have met continually The south shore of Nova Scotia is world renowned for the quality of its lobster, and this industry is vitally important to the sustainability of many rural communi‐ with harvesters from Atlantic Canada, from rural Nova Scotia, over ties, as well as to the greater provincial economy. the last year since I have become the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. I will continue to do that. It is vitally important that we What has the minister been doing to sustain the rural fishery in hear what their needs are and that we address them. those communities? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I apologize to the Leader Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, “vitally important” are the words of the Opposition. I am afraid my Internet cut out while he was ask‐ she used in her maiden speech. She cannot answer how many meet‐ ing his question and I did not hear it. Is there any way I could have ings she has had, organized by her office as minister, in rural com‐ him repeat it, please? munities in Nova Scotia. I do not mean bumping into her neigh‐ bour. How many meetings has she organized in her capacity in rural The Chair: Absolutely. I will ask the hon. Leader of the Opposi‐ Nova Scotia? tion to repeat his question. Hon. Erin O'Toole: With pleasure, Mr. Chair. It is important for Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, as I have said, I have had the minister, indeed all members of the government, to reflect on countless meetings with commercial harvesters since I was first ap‐ her passion in her first day as a member of Parliament on December pointed minister and before I was minister. This is something that is 7, 2015. important in my riding. Part of the minister's remarks then were: The south shore of Nova Scotia is world renowned for the quality of its lobster, Commercial harvesters play an integral role in our communities and this industry is vitally important to the sustainability of many rural communi‐ and I will continue to meet with them to ensure we address the con‐ ties, as well as to the greater provincial economy. cerns that I hear from them every day of the year. What has the minister done in 15 months to sustain the fishery, the lifeblood of those rural communities? ● (1905) Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, there have been a number Hon. Erin O'Toole: Over the same time period, Mr. Chair, how of measures that we have taken to ensure we are addressing the many meetings have there been with indigenous leaders in the com‐ fishery and to ensure we are sustaining it for the long term. munity on the fishery? During COVID-19, we invested close to half a billion dollars in the fish harvester benefit and grant program, which delivered finan‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, once again, I have been cial support to self-employed harvesters across the country, who meeting with the indigenous communities in Atlantic Canada as have been facing hardships brought on by COVID-19. This special well as indigenous people right across the country when it comes to program was initiated to address the needs of harvesters who could the fishery. That is part of the role of the Minister of Fisheries and not access federal funding. It was actually the only program that Oceans. They need to be consulted. They need to be heard. That is was delivered for a specific industry because it was extremely im‐ one of the things I will continue to do. portant that fish harvesters had what they needed. Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, how many proactive meetings We are also investing in the Atlantic fisheries fund, the Quebec did the minister organize with indigenous leaders in her 15 months fisheries fund, the B.C. SRIF fund. We are also ensuring that mon‐ as minister? ey is available for processors— The Chair: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I have had a number of meetings with commercial harvesters as well as with indigenous Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, in her 15 months as minister, people and first nations communities. It is imperative that the Min‐ how many direct meetings has the minister had with commercial ister of Fisheries and Oceans continues to have those conversations. fisheries groups in Atlantic Canada? That is something I will continue to do. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I continue to meet with commercial harvesters on a regular basis. I have been doing that Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, will the minister confirm that she since I was first appointed as Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. I only reached out to Chief Mike Sack after reading his comments in will continue to do that. the paper about the fishery dispute? 2366 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply Hon. Bernadette Jordan: No, Mr. Chair, I had many meetings Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, which minister is the lead on fi‐ with Chief Sack over the last number of months. I will continue to nalizing this indigenous right? Is it the Minister of Crown-Indige‐ do that. It is part of the negotiation process. It is important that we nous Relations or is it this minister? continue to have conversations with the chief, with all the chiefs. That is what I have been doing and that is what I will continue to doing. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, as I have said, we take a Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, the minister previously said that whole-of-government approach to reconciliation. The Minister of she had not read the Marshall decisions that led to the indigenous Crown-Indigenous Relations is actively involved with me on this fishery and the dispute in Nova Scotia. Has she since read the two file to ensure we are moving forward in a positive way in reconcili‐ Marshall decisions? ation, but recognizing that Fisheries and Oceans is actually my file. I am very involved with this as well; we both are. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I have read the Marshall decision. The decision is extremely important. It affirms the Supreme Court decision on the right for first nations to fish. We Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, by “whole of government”, I will continue to work with them to ensure we implement that right. take it that there is no lead on this file. The minister could clearly Hon. Erin O'Toole: What does the second Marshall decision of clarify that if she wanted. the Supreme Court of Canada refer to, Mr. Chair? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, the second Marshall deci‐ sion actually clarifies the first Marshall decision, because there The previous minister to her was able to negotiate two indige‐ were questions around that decision. The second has ensured that it nous-led rights agreements. How many have been negotiated under is clarified so we can make sure we move forward to ensure we im‐ her tenure as minister? plement the right. Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, implementing the right and pro‐ viding for conservation means that Indigenous Crown-Relations ● (1910) and Fisheries and Oceans must meet together to get this done. How many regular meetings on a monthly basis does she have with the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I am very proud of the fact that we got three agreements in place in the last two years. Previous Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, our government takes a to that, when that member was part of the government for 10 years, whole-of-government approach to reconciliation. The Minister of not one agreement was signed. We have moved forward with recon‐ Crown-Indigenous Relations has been extremely active in this file ciliation. We are putting in place the things we need to do to ensure with me. I meet with her on a regular basis. She has met with me we have agreements with first nations communities. and first nations throughout this process. We have to continue to do that. It is important that the minister is involved, as well as a num‐ ber of ministers, with regard to this issue. Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, to clarify, she expanded the time Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, so I take from that there are no period. Would she confirm that none have been confirmed under regular ongoing meetings between those two ministers to direct ne‐ her watch as minister? gotiations on this dispute. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I meet with the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations probably on a daily basis about this is‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, we are working diligently sue. It is extremely important to me that we have a whole-of-gov‐ to ensure we sign more agreements. We have signed three so far ernment approach to reconciliation. I will continue to do that. The since we have formed government. As I said, that member was a Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations has a lot of knowledge she member of a government that did not get one agreement signed in offers to this file, and I continue to learn from her every day. 10 years. Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, the minister's mandate letter specifically outlines the need to resolve an indigenous-related nego‐ tiation in British Columbia. There is no mention of Atlantic Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, for people watching at home, the Canada. Why is that? first minister was Minister Tootoo; no action. The next minister, now the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, was known for Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, our government has been clam scam. The previous minister to her got a few agreements committed to reconciliation from day one. We know how important done. There has been nothing under her watch. Nor will she even it is to implement the Marshall decision. We are going to continue confirm whether there is a schedule of ongoing meetings with fel‐ to work toward implementing it. Reconciliation is a key priority for low ministers. our government. The previous government left reconciliation on the table. We are not going to do that. We are going to continue to work to ensure we Why has there been no action on something she considered vital are working with first nations communities. to the economy of rural Nova Scotia? November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2367

Business of Supply Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, working on negotiations implement that right. It is a critical piece of work for reconciliation, for these agreements is a complex issue. It is something that re‐ and it is a priority for this government. quires ongoing negotiations. We are doing that. We have been working expeditiously with the first nations communities to reach We are working with communities to discuss their fishery plans agreements. We are looking at fisheries plans now. We will contin‐ now. We are moving forward with negotiations. It has been a posi‐ ue to do that. We know how important it is to get these agreements tive process. We will continue to do the hard work necessary to done, and I am committed to ensuring we get them there. make sure we have agreements in place. Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, indigenous leaders have ex‐ pressed concern, even calling for the need of peacekeepers. The The Chair: The hon. Leader of the Opposition has time for one Municipality of Barrington, commercial fishery representatives and last question. even the premier of Nova Scotia have been critical of the minister's inaction. Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, it is perhaps fitting to end here. In the member's maiden speech, she said the commercial fishery When everyone was calling for her to act, why did she appoint a was vitally important to rural Nova Scotia. In recent weeks, she has retired Liberal politician to take the lead for her? been complaining that it is unauthorized. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I have been involved in this file and engaged in it since day one. We have appointed a spe‐ Does she understand why many constituents in Nova Scotia are cial representative to work with the Minister of Crown-Indigenous disappointed with the minister? Relations and me. He is a neutral third party. He is there to bridge the gap between first nations communities and industry. This is ac‐ ● (1915) tually something industry asked for. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, the commercial fishery in We have full confidence in Mr. Surette. We will continue to work Nova Scotia is extremely important to our economic growth. It is with him to make sure we are going forward in the right way. It is important to our rural coastal communities. It is something I have extremely important that commercial harvesters and indigenous stood behind since I was first elected, and I will continue to do that. people, who have fished side by side for generations, continue to do that. We are looking for the right path forward. I do not appreciate the member opposite putting words in my Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, how many names were consid‐ mouth. I am extremely committed to making sure we find the right ered along side Mr. Surette's? path forward, which not only addresses indigenous rights, but also makes sure we address the concerns from commercial harvesters. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I cannot speak to confiden‐ tial negotiations on who was involved in that process. We are ex‐ The Chair: Resuming debate, the hon. Minister of Fisheries and tremely proud of— Oceans. The Chair: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, my question was how many Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and names did the minister consider for the special appointment before the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Mr. Chair, it is a pleasure to she appointed a former Liberal politician? speak in the House today. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, Mr. Surette has a long- The primary reason I am here today is to discuss the spending standing history of community advocacy. He is has been a well re‐ plans for Fisheries and Oceans Canada for the 2020-21 fiscal year. spected member in his community. He has worked in fisheries ne‐ In these main estimates, I am seeking a total of $3.5 billion, which gotiations in the past. I have full confidence in his abilities, and I represents a $469 million increase over last year. For the most part, will continue to make sure we work closely with him to see what this increase is primarily the result of new funding to advance rec‐ his report comes out— onciliation between the Crown and indigenous peoples by imple‐ The Chair: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. menting agreements and treaties, as well as engaging with indige‐ Hon. Erin O'Toole: Mr. Chair, I will chalk that response up to a nous communities and stakeholders on fisheries policy. whole-of-government approach to considering it. I hope people in Nova Scotia are seeing the minister's inability to respond to simple It also represents incremental funding to continue the Canadian questions. Coast Guard's fleet recapitalization projects, which will help to modernize the fleet and extend the life of its existing vessels, ensur‐ On September 16, the minister said that unauthorized fishing ac‐ ing that the Coast Guard can continue to deliver critical services in tivity would not be tolerated. Of course, this was on the eve of the support of the safety of Canada's coasts, waterways and oceans. commencement of the commercial lobster fishery. Was she refer‐ ring to the commercial fishery, and that she wanted it to stop in No‐ Planned spending will help my department provide important va Scotia? economic opportunities to Canadians in coastal communities, sus‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, the Marshall decision is tain and rebuild fisheries to ensure that they remain healthy for fu‐ clear that first nation communities have a right to fish. We are ture generations, and protect and promote our oceans, coasts and working with those communities to make sure that we are able to waterways. 2368 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply As the federal minister responsible for fisheries and oceans, I am Additionally, our government also announced investments of responsible for ensuring that our marine resources are managed for over $2 billion for the comprehensive vessel life extension program the long term and in the public interest. It is also incumbent upon for the Coast Guard's existing fleet. Building whole new classes of me to advance Canada's commitment to reconciliation by ensuring vessels takes a great deal of time, planning, money and effort. Re‐ that my department works in close collaboration with indigenous pairs, refits and vessel life extension work must be carried out on peoples to manage Canada's fisheries. the existing fleet until new ships are delivered under the national shipbuilding strategy. This can only be done through the co-development of new solu‐ tions that are consistent with the constitutional protections provided to aboriginal and treaty rights, and meaningfully advance Canada's important relationships with indigenous peoples, while ensuring a stable, predictable fishery for all participants. We recently marked the completion of the first class of ships Funding for reconciliation on indigenous rights issues will be built under Canada national shipbuilding strategy with the accep‐ used to implement reconciliation agreements and treaties, as well as tance of three offshore fishery science vessels. These are Canada's engage with indigenous communities and stakeholders on fisheries first-ever vessels purposely designed and built for vital offshore policy. These landmark agreements are designed to help close eco‐ fisheries research, science and monitoring. nomic gaps through the development of partnerships and co-man‐ agement regimes, and by increasing aboriginal access to fisheries licences and quotas, thereby augmenting their participation in fish‐ ing related activities. The Canadian Coast Guard would not be what it is today without Our government is committed to working alongside indigenous the tremendous support of Canada's shipbuilding and marine indus‐ peoples to collaboratively manage this vital resource and ensure try, which fuels innovation and skills development, and creates new that as stewards of our land and waters they have a rightful place at opportunities for workers and businesses across the country. the table when it comes to the management of our fisheries. One of the most important priorities is restoring the health of wild salmon stocks and other important fish stocks across Canada. As members know, our government announced an additional $107 ● (1920) million to support the implementation of stock assessment and re‐ building provisions in the renewed fisheries act to sustain Canada's wild fish stocks. We also launched the B.C. salmon restoration and innovation fund and the Quebec fisheries fund, both modelled on the very suc‐ Our significant commitment to renew the Coast Guard fleet will cessful Atlantic fisheries fund to support projects focused on build‐ provide our crews with state-of-the-art equipment and preserve the ing resilience thorough restoration, promotion of science partner‐ world-class marine safety regime that Canada enjoys. ships, innovation and adoptive technologies. Our government is also making an additional contribution of $5 million to the Pacific Salmon Endowment Fund Society to support the important work of the Pacific Salmon Foundation to engage On oceans protection, our government has exceeded its marine community groups in salmon conservation. These new funds will conservation targets to protect 10% of our oceans by the end of enable the foundation to be even more effective going forward. 2020. We are at nearly 14% now and already working toward our 25% target by 2025. That is with real protections that will have bio‐ These are among many activities that support our wild salmon diversity benefits for generations to come. policy implementation plan over the next five years to support im‐ portant changes to the management of our aquaculture policies. Keeping mariners safe and protecting our marine environment is a duty we entrust to the brave women and men in the Canadian Coast Guard. They are the backbone of one of the strongest marine This past summer, Canada joined the United Kingdom's global safety systems in the world. Our government is committed to pro‐ ocean alliance. One of the key focuses of this alliance is advocating viding the Coast Guard with the tools it needs to keep Canadians for the adoption of the global target of 30% by 2030, which is a key safe and keep our economy moving. pillar of next year's Convention on Biological Diversity, COP 15 meeting. Our historic $1.5-billion oceans protection plan is creating In 2019, we announced the largest investment ever made to re‐ a world-leading marine safety system, restoring and protecting ma‐ new the Coast Guard fleet with 24 new large ships, 16 multi-pur‐ rine and coastal ecosystems and habitats, enhancing environmental pose vessels, two Arctic offshore patrol ships, and six program ice‐ and local emergency response, and strengthening our ability to breakers. trade with confidence and safety. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2369

Business of Supply As we go forward, we will accelerate the use of tools such as ma‐ fishery. The idea seems to have a lot of merit and can contribute rine spatial planning to allow us to plan our ocean spaces in collab‐ significantly to providing greater access and opportunity while we oration with provincial and territorial partners, indigenous peoples, work on longer-term restorative measures. and industry and environmental stakeholders. Our government has invested in Canada's ocean supercluster, composed of businesses, Could the minister take this opportunity to elaborate on what she academia and non-profits, to accelerate innovation in sustainable and/or the department is doing to consider this idea and potentially economic growth in our oceans. We are mobilizing internationally implement it going forward and could she also provide any insight to deliver the scientific knowledge, innovation and capacity needed into any complicating factors that might have to be figured out pri‐ to strengthen oceans protection because science and innovation will or to implementing such a fishery? be the critical pillar of the strong, blue economy.

Our government is committed to promoting economic opportuni‐ ● (1925) ties for Canadians while ensuring our oceans and resources remain healthy for future generations. As part of the approval of the Trans Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, first of all, I support ex‐ Mountain expansion project, our government put forward eight ac‐ ploring a mark-selective fishery. I understand how important the commodation measures to address concerns raised by indigenous public fishery is to B.C.'s economy. A number of small businesses, peoples. whether tour guides or lodges, have suffered recently and not only We are implementing four of these measures, which focus on due to the loss of tourism this year, but also due to the loss of the building capacity and enhancing long-term relationships with in‐ wild salmon. The cascading implications have not just been on digenous groups. These measures seek to advance shared objectives them, but on first nations commercial harvesters and so many more. for maintaining and restoring fish habitat, understanding and moni‐ toring the cumulative effects and improving spill prevention re‐ A mark-selective fishery is one possible option that can be ex‐ sponse capacity. I look forward to sharing more about these and plored in terms of fish retention while reducing impacts to wild other developments with my fellow parliamentarians in the months stocks. Indeed, there is no smoking gun when it comes to the ahead. salmon returns and making sure that we are seeing it last for years Our nation's prosperity depends on making sure that the benefits to come. of growing the economy are felt by more and more people with good, well-paying jobs for the middle class. We are well positioned I am glad to say that my department is currently reviewing infor‐ to deliver on the government's priorities, and the investments I have mation to support the decision-making on potential expansion of mentioned will allow DFO and the Coast Guard to continue to car‐ the mark-selective fishery. There are vital concerns that need to be ry out the important work of service to Canadians. thoroughly understood, though. For instance, the mark-selective The Chair: We have just over seven minutes remaining in this fisheries will still encounter wild Chinook. Release mortalities of time slot for questions. I will note for hon. members that this is a stock concern needs to be accounted for to ensure that the mark-se‐ unique part of this evening's format, where normally the minister lective fisheries do not adversely impact the wild stocks. herself is receiving questions. When she takes a speaking slot, obvi‐ ously she cannot pose questions to herself. Therefore, I will receive I have been speaking with sports fishers in B.C., as well as envi‐ questions from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fish‐ ronmental organizations. I have heard how a mark-selective fishery eries and Oceans and then in all other subsequent rounds, regard‐ can offer potential benefits. I fully want to make sure that we con‐ less of which member is asking questions, questions will be direct‐ tinue to speak to these organizations to fully understand the issues ed to either to the minister or her parliamentary secretary. of the potential, but we also need to know what we need to do to We will go the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of mitigate the concerns that we are also hearing. Fisheries and Oceans. Mr. (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of To do this work, DFO is going to undertake additional consulta‐ Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Mr. tions to further inform our decision-making and we will do every‐ Chair, British Columbia is home to a significant number of recre‐ thing we can to work with these communities to address the con‐ ational fishers who drive the economies of small coastal communi‐ cerns that we are hearing. ties. In order to continue to thrive, they need access and opportunity to fish. Billions of dollars of economic activity depend on it and is Mr. Terry Beech: Mr. Chair, British Columbia has many iconic at risk if we do not take action. species that call our coastal waters home, but none is more iconic or beloved than our southern resident killer whales. I have had an I had the opportunity recently to go out with a group of recre‐ opportunity to work on our government's whale restoration pro‐ ational fishers on Vancouver Island and talk about how we as a fed‐ gram from various angles in DFO in science and in transport. eral government can help. They fully recognize that there are stocks of concern and that we are having to make some very tough deci‐ sions to ensure that there are more fish in the water for the benefit Could the minister update this committee on the measures our of future generations. One solution they continue to raise with me government is taking to make sure this species is better positioned and I know they have raised with the minister is a mark-selective to thrive and increase its populations going forward? 2370 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, our government is commit‐ things, that Europeans first met first nations peoples. Even today, ted to the protection and recovery of the iconic southern resident the sea is a crossroads where people meet up, rub shoulders and ex‐ killer whales. In recent years we have taken significant steps to ad‐ change ideas, but also where they sometimes clash. It was actually dress the key threats to their survival. This May, we introduced to secure control of the fishery that Great Britain and France fought measures focused on increasing prey availability and reducing the during the colonial era, and it is unfortunately for that reason that physical and acoustic disturbances, building on our efforts from last some communities remain divided, even today, in the Maritimes. year. These measures are informed by discussions with indigenous In the past, this sector has also been the subject of federal- communities, environment, industry and with the governments of provincial bickering. On that front, no one will be surprised to hear B.C. and the U.S. It was extremely important to have input from the me say that nothing is settled. In Quebec, fishing plays a fundamen‐ public. We are going to continue to work with key partners and tal role in the economic and social life of many communities in the stakeholders to make sure we do protect these iconic creatures. Gaspé region, the Magdalen Islands, the Lower St. Lawrence, as well as in my home region, the North Shore, and in northern Que‐ Mr. Terry Beech: Mr. Chair, the minister mentioned this in her bec. speech. Many wild Pacific salmon populations are at historic lows. This is a species that is also iconic to British Columbia and is a part of our cultural identity. There is perhaps no other species in the In 2018 the maritime fisheries represented more than 4,500 direct country that demonstrates so easily how the health of our environ‐ and indirect jobs and generated revenues totalling more ment and the health of our economy go hand in hand. than $435 million for the Quebec economy. For many indigenous communities, such as the Innu, Maliseet and Mi'kmaq nations, the I would like to know how much has been invested to support fisheries offer economic development opportunities that enable British Columbia's salmon populations and what projects the gov‐ them to envisage a better future based on activities historically ernment is working on to return wild salmon stocks to levels of tra‐ practised by those nations. ditional abundance. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the protection of the Fishing is a tangible reality that has been neglected for far too wild Pacific salmon stocks is a priority for our government. We long by successive governments, resulting in the consequences we have been working with a number of organizations through the are familiar with and continue to experience. I am therefore taking B.C. SRIF program to make sure we are working toward habitat this opportunity to outline the approach to marine fisheries that my restoration. We have also invested in Big Bar, which was a signifi‐ party, the Bloc Québécois, intends to defend, because we can and cant landslide last year that seriously impacted the Fraser River we must do better for Quebec. salmon. We are making sure we are doing everything possible to face As members surely know, fishing is a shared jurisdiction under these challenges head-on. As I have said, there is no one solution to the Constitution Act, 1867. The conservation, regulation and pro‐ the declining stocks. We are taking a number of different initiatives tection of the resource are the federal government's responsibility, to make sure we address this concern. We know how important it is while the processing of seafood products and the ownership of the to the people of B.C. and to the culture of B.C. resource are Quebec's responsibility. As the former leader of the Bloc Québécois, Gilles Duceppe, so ably put it, when the fish is in It is not enough to just protect the fish that are still there. We the water, it is managed by the federal government, and when it is need to make sure we are growing them to abundance, and that is out of the water, it belongs to Quebec. If it comes out head first, it the goal. belongs to Quebec; if it comes out tail first, it belongs to the federal ● (1930) government. I would add that when it arrives at the processing plant, it returns to Quebec's jurisdiction. Mr. Terry Beech: Madam Chair, I know I have been very B.C. centric in my questions so far, and I am going to get a second chance later this evening. Perhaps I could ask the minister how im‐ The result of this division of powers is the worst part of Canadi‐ portant small craft harbours are to this country and to her personal‐ an federalism, in other words inconsistency in public policy. As ly. hon. members know, Quebec's motto is Je me souviens, or I remem‐ ber. Nonetheless, memory can sometimes play tricks on us and Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, small craft harbours even make us forget. In time, we end up taking certain things for are extremely important. They are the vital infrastructure that keep granted. The federal government's hegemony over fisheries man‐ our fishery running. We need to make sure we are doing everything. agement is one such thing. History shows us that this was not al‐ Our government has invested significantly in small craft harbours. I ways that way. know how important they are to our rural coastal communities and I will continue to work to make sure we are addressing the gaps we are seeing in our small craft harbours. Did hon. members know that for 62 years, the Government of Quebec was in charge of issuing fishing licences, enforcing the law, [Translation] establishing the rules and developing other salt water fishing activi‐ Mrs. Marilène Gill (Manicouagan, BQ): Madam Chair, people ties? Did hon. members know that for nearly 55 years, that manage‐ sometimes forget the essential role that maritime fisheries played in ment went off without a hitch under a Quebec-Canada agreement the development of Quebec. It was through fishing, among other signed in 1922? November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2371

Business of Supply Did hon. members know that in July 1983, the government of Now that I have completed my opening remarks, I would like to Pierre Elliott Trudeau unilaterally decided to end this Quebec- ask our Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Canada agreement, thereby sparking another quarrel with Quebec? Guard a few questions. Let's not forget that. On the contrary, let's remember. My first question is about how the department's funding is allo‐ Did hon. members know that the traditional position of the Gov‐ cated. I would like to know if the minister feels that every region ernment of Quebec, reiterated by several successive governments her department covers receives its fair share of funding. since 1936, is that the provinces should have exclusive jurisdiction over fisheries in their territory? Very few people know that. The [English] Bloc Québécois knows it, and our position on this matter is the same as Quebec's. Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, I want to thank By terminating the 1922 agreement, Ottawa did two things. First, my hon. colleague for her intervention. it demonstrated predatory federalism by taking away a tool that em‐ powered Quebec to pursue vigorous development of its marine We have seen wonderful investments in the fisheries in the past fisheries. Second, it reinforced the inconsistency in public policy. two years through the Atlantic fisheries fund, the Quebec fisheries The two sectors are necessarily interdependent. fund and the B.C. SRIF fund, making sure that harvesters have what they need through the fish harvester benefit and grant program As a result of this confusion, fisheries development has suffered. and through the Canadian seafood stabilization fund. All of this As a result, Fisheries and Oceans is failing to publish RFPs in was equitably distributed across all of our coastal regions, making French, even though it was reprimanded by the Commissioner of sure that the fisheries were absolutely looked after throughout the Official Languages years ago. area. ● (1935) [Translation] As a result, people back home have been protesting for years de‐ Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, that amount is not nearly manding that the government return what was theirs, meaning ac‐ enough. We do not consider it to be Quebec's fair share. cess to the resource and saltwater fishing licences, but the depart‐ ment has ignored their demand. Can the minister tell us which province most of her department's employees are in? As a result, the regulations are ambiguous and decisions are made opaquely. As a result, small craft harbours have a 25-year in‐ [English] frastructure deficit and communities are withering away. As a re‐ sult, all the tools are there, but there is nothing to implement a food Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, when we were doing sovereignty and land use policy. the COVID relief benefit programs, we looked at making sure that all of the areas that had been impacted, and all of the harvesters that As a result, fishers feel abandoned, the first nations are legiti‐ had been impacted, would benefit from the programs. We saw that mately angry and the quotas completely disregard Quebec and the right across the country. provinces, and in the end, the final result is that there is no result, which is worse. Things need to change. We are continuing to work with our provincial counterparts to make sure that we address the concerns we hear from the fishery in We need to completely overhaul the procedures at the Depart‐ her area and all areas, and we will continue to do that. ment of Fisheries and Oceans. We think the department needs to pivot towards decentralization. It needs to get back to the spirit of ● (1940) the 1922 agreement and work with Quebec, the fishers and the first nations. Why not restore management of the fisheries to as close to [Translation] the coastal communities as possible, with full financial compensa‐ Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, since the minister cannot tell tion? us in which province most of her employees are located, could she Ottawa must stop its inept management of resources within Que‐ tell us which province receives the most money in transfer pay‐ bec's boundaries. It is time to put some serious thought into the ments from her department? fisheries and the federal government's action, inaction and counter‐ [English] action on this front. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I am sorry, my Internet The Bloc Québécois represents a movement, and, as we did in cut out for a second. Could the member please repeat the question? the past with the St. Lawrence report, we will engage. We expect the government to push for the status quo, but we will not give up. [Translation] Quebec is a land of fields, lakes, forests, rivers and mountains, Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, I was asking the following: but it is also a maritime nation. Quebeckers are a seagoing people. I If the minister cannot tell us in which province most of her employ‐ want to see Quebec and its territory become a single, indivisible en‐ ees are located, could she tell us which province receives the most tity. money in transfer payments from her department? 2372 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply [English] [Translation] Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we look at a number of issues when we are looking at making sure that we are addressing Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, I can assure you that the concerns in provinces right across the fishery. During COVID-19, communities of Quebec do not feel well looked after. That is not re‐ when we instituted the fish harvester benefit and grant program, I ally the case compared to other provinces, and the numbers prove met regularly with all of my provincial counterparts in Atlantic it. I am not even talking about Manitoba and British Columbia. One Canada and eastern Quebec, making sure that their concerns were need only compare Quebec to eastern Canada. addressed. I will continue to do that. It is important that we invest in the fisheries in all areas where it has impacts. Quebec receives 10 times less funding per capita than New‐ [Translation] foundland and Labrador, which receives $24.55 per capita. Prince Edward Island receives $23.41 per capita, while Nova Scotia re‐ Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, I agree with the minister that ceives $19.36 per capita and New Brunswick receives $27.87 per it is important to respond to COVID-19, but of course the depart‐ capita. ment must continue with its day-to-day operations. In that case, if she cannot tell me which province saw the largest How does the minister explain that? staff losses or which province is receiving the most money in trans‐ fer payments, I would like her to explain to me, if she still main‐ [English] tains that this is fair, why in 2019 British Columbia re‐ ceived $75.94 million from her department while Quebec received Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, when we look at what only $12.8 million. is required in coastal communities, we look at a number of different [English] factors. It is important to make sure that we are addressing the con‐ cerns of coastal communities. That is why we are making these in‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, when we look at in‐ vestments through the Quebec fishery fund, which is a contribution vestments in fisheries, we look at a number of different things. It program that is funded jointly by the Government of Canada and was extremely important to us to make sure that Quebec, as well as the Province of Quebec. We are investing nearly $42.8 million over British Columbia, received funds that they needed, just like At‐ five years to support Quebec's fish and seafood sector. lantic Canada did with the Atlantic fisheries fund. That is why we instituted the Quebec fisheries fund: to make sure that fishers were ● (1945) able to access funding to grow their businesses and invest in tech‐ nology. Those are all things that we are continuing to do. We will [Translation] work with the provinces to make sure that we address the concerns they have, and we are doing that on a regular basis. Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, of course supporting the sec‐ [Translation] tor does not mean developing it. The objectives that could be met Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, it is important to us because with the necessary funding are not being met, as I said earlier in my the money that is being invested and the efforts that are being made speech. It takes investments if we want communities to do more obviously help ensure the development and, in some cases, the sur‐ than just survive. I could talk more about this later with the minis‐ vival of this industry and communities in my riding. ter. Speaking of fairness, if we look at the numbers for the same I would like her to think about all the numbers I gave her and the year, 2019, we see that Quebec received only $1.52 per capita in reality in Quebec. We have thousands of kilometres of shoreline in transfer payments, while Manitoba received almost double that the north, in the estuary and in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. amount at $2.70 per capita.

How does the minister explain that situation given that there does By comparison with the Atlantic, or the Maritimes region, to not seem to be a lot of lobster in that province? which people often try to associate us, even though we are not part [English] of that region or even the Pacific region, does the minister believe that Quebec is underfunded by the Department of Fisheries and Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we are making sure Oceans? that we are supporting coastal communities right across the country. We are supporting fisheries right across the country, even our in‐ land fisheries. They are extremely important to a number of com‐ [English] munities inland as well. We are going to continue to do that. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the Quebec fisheries Making sure that coastal communities are well looked after is ex‐ fund is stimulating innovation in Quebec's fish and seafood sector. tremely important, as is making sure that they have the investments It supports development, it enables the sector to rely on three pillars they need to grow their fishery, that they can maintain their fishery for development, it relies on innovation and it encourages develop‐ and that it is sustainable for years to come. We are investing in sci‐ ment of new products. The infrastructure encourages the use of new ence and technology to make sure that those coastal communities technologies, and there are science partnerships that enable the cre‐ continue to have the fishery for the future. ation of partnerships that improve knowledge and impacts. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2373

Business of Supply We are investing significantly in Quebec through the Quebec Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, we have a wild salmon crisis fisheries fund in order to make sure that those coastal communities going on in British Columbia. In fact, we saw the lowest return of survive, thrive and are there for sustainability for years to come. We the Fraser River sockeye, which is the largest salmon-bearing river are going to continue to work with the Province of Quebec to make in the world, this year, with less than 300,000 returning sockeye at sure that we are delivering for those coastal communities. a run that normally had four million. This is following last year, Mr. Gord Johns (Courtenay—Alberni, NDP): Madam Chair, which was the lowest return in recorded history. with COVID-19 and the support for the fishers, can the minister clarify how many fishers and fish harvesters applied for the fish The minister has talked about her commitment to it, but does she harvesters benefit and grant program? Is she willing to further ex‐ actually believe that her current commitment of funds and re‐ tend the application process for those fishers who could not apply sources is enough to deal with this issue? because they were out on the water fishing? Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, the fish har‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the protection of wild vester benefit and grant program was one of the only industry-spe‐ Pacific salmon is a priority for the government. We sympathize cific programs that was made available. with communities that have been impacted by the salmon harvest‐ ing. We know there is a lot to do. We have been investing in habitat We recognized how challenging it was for fish harvesters. Be‐ restoration. We have invested in Big Bar. cause of the way their enterprises were set up, they were unable to qualify for a number of the other government programs that were there. That is why we developed this program. This was close to a We are making sure that we are working with community groups, half-billion dollar program to make sure that harvesters could get with indigenous communities and with the B.C. government to do through this very difficult— everything we possibly can to protect the wild Pacific salmon. However, it is not enough to just protect them. We need to make The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Courte‐ sure that we are doing everything we can to grow those fish as well. nay—Alberni. We want to see them come back to an abundance. We are going to Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, will the minister extend the ap‐ continue to do that. plication to the program?

Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the program was ex‐ ● (1950) tended a number of times to make sure that we caught as many peo‐ ple as we could during the height of the pandemic and to make sure that people were able to apply. Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, Canada spends a fraction of what our neighbours in the United States spend on wild salmon Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, will the minister commit to in‐ management and recovery. We have a collective responsibility to creasing the transparency of quota licence ownership by creating a invest in salmon now, so that the species can be recovered before it public online database of licence holdings in B.C.? is too late. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, with regard to the fish‐ eries committee that actually did the study on the west coast fish‐ ery, we are making sure that we are working with British Columbia Could the minister commit to significant new and ongoing in‐ to identify the priority fisheries management and licencing con‐ vestments in the recovery of wild salmon populations and manage‐ cerns. This is ongoing work. We are doing it— ment for future generations? The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Courte‐ nay—Alberni. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I agree with my col‐ league across the way. We need to do everything possible in order Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, in that same report, it was iden‐ to address the crisis that wild Pacific salmon are in right now. That tified that fish in Canadian waters are a resource for Canadians and is why we made significant investments through the B.C. SRIF pro‐ that no future sales of fishing quarter licences to non-Canadians gram. It is why we have pulled out all the stops when it comes to should happen. Big Bar. It is why we continue to work with indigenous communi‐ Could the minister outline what steps she is taking to stop for‐ ties, with the B.C. government, with stakeholders and with industry eign ownership of the quota in B.C.? to find the best path forward. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we are continuing to work on a west coast licensing review through Fisheries and There is no one easy solution to this. We are working to make Oceans Canada. We have contracted a comparative analysis of At‐ sure that we are hearing from everybody and doing everything we lantic and Pacific commercial fishing policies and regulations, and can to protect the fish. are initiating a review of the existing foreign ownership. There is a lot of work to be done here, but that work is ongoing Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, here is a simple question. Will and we are committed to making sure that we address these con‐ the minister provide further and new resources to deal with the wild cerns. salmon emergency? 2374 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we are continuing to There is no one easy solution to this. We are taking— work with our partners to make sure that we are addressing the con‐ cern of wild Pacific salmon. We know there is a lot to be done. We will continue that work. We will not rest until we make sure that the The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Courte‐ Pacific salmon grow and come back to where they should be. nay—Alberni. Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, will the minister commit to a coordinated and co-operative wild salmon recovery plan, something Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, the resources are inadequate. which DFO has not clearly been successful doing so far? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, wild Pacific salmon With respect to the Discovery Islands fish farms, which we know are a priority for our government. We are working diligently on a were identified in Cohen recommendation 19, they were supposed number of different measures to address the steep declines in the to be moved by the end of September this fall if they were threaten‐ Pacific salmon population. That includes everything from habitat ing obviously juvenile migrating wild salmon, which is happening. restoration to working with indigenous communities, commercial harvesters and recreational fishers. We are not stopping. We are going to continue to work to make Were the current farm-level diagnoses for disease and pathogens sure that we address this ongoing concern. used in the minister's current determination of less than minimal harm to wild sockeye stocks? Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, I will tell colleagues how it is working in terms of the significant investments. The salmon en‐ hancement program is a lifeline for hatcheries and habitat restora‐ ● (1955) tion. It has not seen any funding increase in over a decade. In fact, the Tofino hatchery where I live is getting $8,000 a year. They will Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, our government is work on a river, bring it back, and then they will go to another river committed to an area-based management approach to aquaculture, and bring it back. They will have to go back to the other river be‐ and these particular farms may not be the best fit for the location or cause it has crashed. They are not getting the support they need. for their adjacency to first nations communities. That is why we are Will the minister commit to a significant and permanent increase finalizing formal consultations with the local communities and each to the salmon enhancement program? If not, why? first nation on the Discovery Islands as to whether those licences will be renewed. I will say that the first nations communities there Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the member opposite recognized how important it was, but also told us— and I are actually on the same page. We know there is a lot that needs to be done when it comes to restoring wild Pacific salmon. We are working with communities. We will work with the province The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Courte‐ and with indigenous people on a coordinated plan. That is what we nay—Alberni. are doing. We have had significant investments in the B.C. SRIF program. Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, is it reasonable to assume that We support the salmon enhancement program. We are working with the DFO document, “A fishery decision-making framework incor‐ stakeholder groups to find out what the best path forward is. Those porating the precautionary approach”, is the default policy when it are all initiatives that we have undertaken as a government. We are comes to decision-making related to fish farms? committed to— The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Courte‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I would like to finish nay—Alberni. my comments on the Discovery Islands. What I thought was very Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, we are clearly not on the same important was that we heard directly from first nations communi‐ page because not enough money is flowing. I just keep reminding ties that we could not make unilateral decisions without consulting the minister about the salmon enhancement program and the lack of with them before we made decisions on the Discovery Islands fish investments in restoration and enhancement. Right now we farms. That is one of the reasons we are having those conversations need $500 million just to save the Fraser, never mind the rest of the now. I have met with first nations chiefs directly on this issue. We coast in the next five years. We cannot get an answer. know that we are taking an area-based management approach to aquaculture. We are going to continue to do the hard work that Will she commit more money, yes or no? needs to be done. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we will continue to work with our partners to make sure we have a coordinated ap‐ Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, so she means she is not using proach to the restoration of the wild Pacific salmon. This is ex‐ that document. tremely important to us as a government. We are continuing the im‐ portant work that is at Big Bar to restore the national fish passage there. We continue to work with first nations, with industry and Is the government on track to keep its election promise to re‐ with stakeholders to support the recovery of wild salmon. move open-net fish farms from coastal B.C. by 2025? November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2375

Business of Supply Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, our government is ● (2000) committed to developing and delivering on concrete solutions to transition open-net farms. Recently, we announced the parliamen‐ Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, European green crab in B.C. tary secretary, the member for Burnaby North—Seymour, as the are a significant threat to wild Pacific salmon. The minister and lead on engagements on this important initiative. This is a change DFO failed to live up to the direction of the Auditor General in that requires close relationships and collaboration with the Province controlling the spread of green crab. of British Columbia, with indigenous people, with communities, with industries and with other stakeholders to ensure that the transi‐ Will the minister be providing adequate funding to coastal first tion is workable. We are committed to this, and we are going to nations, which have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars of their continue to work on it to make sure that we get it done. own funds, to develop a comprehensive plan to mitigate the impact of the European green crab? Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans negotiators are proposing a new approach for first na‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, my mandate letter ad‐ tions to increase their food, social and ceremonial access. The pro‐ dresses aquatic invasive species. The European green crab can have posed approach goes by the name “single allocation” and requires significant impacts on marine ecosystems and can harm shellfish first nations to purchase fishing access to increase their FSC access. and aquaculture industries. First nations can use either government funding provided for this purpose or their own revenue. DFO is collaborating with our partners, including first nations, Can the minister explain to first nations why this single alloca‐ provincial governments, stakeholders and the U.S. state and federal tion mandate was developed without any consultation with first na‐ governments, to address the threat of this species to Canada's fish‐ tions in British Columbia? eries and ecosystems. We know there is a lot of work to be done when it comes to aquatic invasive species and we are committed to Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, first nations have a doing that work. right to fish for food, social and ceremonial reasons. We recognize that. We are going to make sure they have these rights. We take this Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, a significant comprehensive re‐ as a priority, but conservation has to take top priority over every‐ covery effort should be in place for the species affected by the Big thing. Bar slide. Returns have been near zero and it seems DFO is not treating this issue like the severe emergency it is. Through the aboriginal fishing strategy, DFO and first nations seek to negotiate mutually acceptable FSC fisheries agreements. These agreements contain provisions related to the amounts that When will the department be initiating a comprehensive recovery may be fished for FSC purposes, species, gear, area and other fac‐ effort for salmon populations affected by the Big Bar slide? tors— Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I am very proud of the The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Courte‐ work we have done at Big Bar. It has been a trigovernment ap‐ nay—Alberni. proach. We have implemented a number of measures to make sure Mr. Gord Johns: Madam Chair, we hear about the government salmon are able to traverse the river. We are currently in the process and its relationship with first nations and see how it has failed to of creating a natural fish passway. These are all things that have to honour section 35 rights. We have heard from witnesses that a large be done, because we know how important the salmon are in the part of the issue is that DFO does not have the mandate to negotiate Fraser River. on a nation-to-nation basis. Witnesses say that responsibility falls to Mr. Terry Beech (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the government and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): and that she should be leading this discussion. Madam Chair, I am thankful for the opportunity to contribute to to‐ What can she say to ensure true nation-to-nation discussions are day's discussion at this gathering of the committee of the whole. I happening that are not based on existing regulations and colonial have about nine or 10 minutes of comments and then I will proceed procedures? to questions at the end of my time. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, when it comes to rec‐ onciliation, our government takes a whole-of-government ap‐ As the minister has indicated, the funding we are seeking relates proach. I work directly with the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Re‐ to our government's priorities of promoting economic opportunities lations on the agreements we have with first nations, particularly for all Canadians, advancing reconciliation with indigenous people, right now in Atlantic Canada given what we are dealing with re‐ strengthening environmental protections and making sure our wa‐ garding the moderate livelihood fishery. It is extremely important ters are safe and navigable. Our government is focused on not just that those negotiations and conversations include the minister and protecting the environment, but restoring it for the benefit of future me. generations. We are going to continue to make sure we address the concerns We know that the foundation of a strong economy can only be we hear. We will continue to work on the path of reconciliation. It built with a clean and thriving environment. In fact, there is no bet‐ is not an easy thing to do, but we are committed to making sure we ter demonstration of how the economy and the environment go get there. hand in hand than our wild Pacific salmon. 2376 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply Serving and restoring Pacific salmon and ensuring a stable and the dedication of all members of this chamber that we will be able predictable fishery for all participants, both indigenous and non-in‐ to ensure that these populations are able to return to traditional lev‐ digenous, is a responsibility we take very seriously. In many rural els of abundance. and coastal communities, salmon fisheries are a real economic driv‐ er that generate jobs and opportunities for thousands of Canadians. Salmon fisheries are part of the cultural identity of the province of Of course, wild salmon do not live in a bubble. They, like all of British Columbia and play a critical role in building coastal indige‐ the ocean's creatures, are affected significantly by the cumulative nous economies, enabling indigenous groups to develop improved effects of human activity. This means that we must fight not only capacity for self-governance and self-determination. To many of for our salmon, but for biodiversity itself and for the health of the our indigenous communities, wild Pacific salmon are not just an marine environment in its entirety. Ensuring a healthy ocean is es‐ economic opportunity, but a way of life that is an important, if not sential for Canada's long-term economic prosperity and will play an sacred, tradition. important role as we build our economy following this global pan‐ Our government is committed to working with indigenous peo‐ demic. ples to explore opportunities to further recognize rights and ad‐ vance reconciliation in the context of fisheries, oceans, aquatic habitats and marine waterways. Canada's wild salmon policies As fellow parliamentarians know, the United Nations has pro‐ speak to the importance of maintaining the biodiversity of these im‐ claimed a Decade of Ocean Science for Sustainable Development, portant stocks, as well as their significance to commercial and beginning in 2021. Our government has pledged Canada's support, recreational fish harvesters, indigenous peoples and, really, all with major investments dedicated to the planning, promotion and Canadians. coordination of activities related to this decade. Canada must be a leader in this space, as our nation has the longest coastline in the We have collaborated closely on the creation of a $142-million world. B.C. salmon restoration and innovation fund, a federal-provincial cost-shared program funded jointly with the Government of British Columbia. We have made an additional contribution of $5 million to the Pacific salmon endowment fund to support the Pacific Starting in 2015, as a nation, we had only protected less than 1% Salmon Foundation, which is doing incredible work to restore wild of our marine environment, which was completely unacceptable. Pacific salmon and its habitat. We pledged to increase this to more than 10% by 2020. Thanks to the hard work of Canadians, we not only met this target but exceed‐ We announced $15 million in additional annual funding to sup‐ ed it. Canada has now protected approximately 14% of our marine port stock assessments, wire tagging and catch monitoring. These environment, and we will get to 25% by 2025. This means that in investments contribute to our obligations under the Canada-U.S. 10 short years, we will have protected 25 times more ocean marine Pacific Salmon Treaty and are targeted toward better managing habitat than all governments before us since Confederation. west coast salmon fishing. We are investing $107 million to support the sustainability of Canada's major fish stocks through implemen‐ tation of the renewed Fisheries Act. We have also invested signifi‐ This is a significant achievement that all members of the House cant resources in restoring natural passage on the Fraser River after and all Canadians should be proud of. It is a major investment in the devastating Big Bar landslide, and we are committed to transi‐ the future of our country and the future of our planet. However, we tioning from open net-pen finfish aquaculture on the west coast of intend to go further. Canada. We are making difficult decisions and important investments to‐ day to ensure that Pacific salmon are available for future genera‐ This summer, Canada joins the United Kingdom's Global Ocean tions. With many wild— Alliance to support the adoption of a global target of 30% marine conservation by 2030, which is anticipated to be a key pillar of next ● (2005) year's Convention on Biological Diversity's COP 15 meeting. We The Assistant Deputy Chair: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. are also implementing the commitments we made during Canada's parliamentary secretary. The sound is not coming from your boom, 2018 G7 presidency to shape international efforts to clean up the but from your computer. Could you check the button on the speak‐ oceans, tackle oceans plastics and advance ocean observation. ers to see if it is on mute? Mr. Terry Beech: Is that better? We know that just like fighting climate change, protecting and The Assistant Deputy Chair: Yes. I thank the member. restoring our ocean is an existential necessity. Canada needs to con‐ Mr. Terry Beech: Thank you, Madam Chair, for letting me tinue to take a leadership role on this and other global environmen‐ know. My apologies to the interpreters. tal issues. We will champion ocean science to help counter threats to ocean life and health, and we must advance a strategy to end ille‐ We are making difficult decisions and important investments to‐ gal, unreported and unregulated fishing. We do this not just for en‐ day to ensure that Pacific salmon are available for future genera‐ vironmental necessity, but because growing the blue economy is a tions. With many wild salmon stocks at historic lows, it is only with significant economic opportunity for the entire country. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2377

Business of Supply New, sustainable technologies are going to present increasing op‐ that we are doing this in collaboration with members on all sides of portunities to coastal communities. Our commitment to transition the House for the good of all Canadians and for the benefit, most away from open net-pen fish farms on the west coast of this country important, of future generations. speaks to that sustainable opportunity. British Columbians feel strongly about the health of our fish stocks, and they need to transi‐ tion farms in a way that is workable, economically feasible and As members know, Canada has the largest amount of coastline of takes into account social impacts. any nation in the world. We are abundantly lucky to face three oceans, including the Pacific, the Atlantic and the Arctic. We know A change like this requires close collaboration with the Province that despite them having different names, we all really share one gi‐ of British Columbia, indigenous communities, industry and other ant ocean. stakeholders, and I am excited to help build this reasonable path. The timing of this transition is beneficial not only to our wild salmon stocks and marine biodiversity, but to opening our imagina‐ When the minister was first elected, Canada protected less than tions for what the future of aquaculture can look like in Canada. 1% of our oceans. Could the minister update us on how much is protected now and what the plan is for providing greater protections Aquaculture goes far beyond salmon. I had the opportunity to as we go forward? visit an oyster farm in Prince Edward Island, which not only creates delicious oysters, but effectively cleans the oceans while doing it. Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, when we were Companies and communities across Canada are already leading first elected in 2015, less than 1% of Canada's oceans were protect‐ the world in aquaculture in areas that include fish, seaweed and ed. We, as a government, made a commitment to ensure we were shellfish. It is a core part of our blue economy growth strategy and protecting the ocean for future generations. We wanted to ensure strengthens the need for the legislative and economic certainty that they were sustainable, that we could have a blue economy and grow a dedicated aquaculture act can provide, an act I expect we will be that blue economy. We set a goal of 10% by 2020. We not only debating in the House in the next number of months. Such an act achieved that goal, we surpassed it. It is almost 14% of protected would bring clarity and transparency to Canadians as to how aqua‐ area now. I was very— culture will be managed in order to achieve responsible and sustain‐ able growth. The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. parliamentary secretary. ● (2010) Our waters provide immense opportunity, but I would regret it if Mr. Terry Beech: Madam Chair, the minister can add more to I did not take some time to highlight the work of the men and wom‐ that if she would like, going forward. en who patrol them, who respond to emergencies on them and who keep our economies moving through them despite thick ice and strong Canadian winters. Of course, I am referring to the brave men We have heard many people speak to the importance of the green and women who serve in the Canadian Coast Guard. economy, when it comes to fighting climate change and growing our economy in a more sustainable way. The same opportunity is Last year, our government announced the single-largest invest‐ available with what the minister just mentioned, which is the blue ment ever made to renew the Canadian Coast Guard fleet, with up economy. We know that if we do not make significant changes and to 18 new large ships, the construction of six new icebreakers and take on ocean pollution, illegal and unregulated fishing and plas‐ an additional $2 billion in investments for vessel life-extension tics, our future opportunity to grow our economy and to leverage maintenance and repair work for the existing fleet. These ships are Canada's tremendous natural assets will be, frankly, diminished. being built through Canada's national shipbuilding strategy. Our offshore fisheries science vessels were Canada's first-ever Could the minister provide some insight into how she sees vessels purposely designed and built for vital offshore fisheries re‐ Canada's opportunity and role with regard to blue economy going search science and monitoring. These vessels were constructed at forward? Seaspan shipyards, a world leader in shipbuilding, whose facility happens to be in my own backyard. Many of my constituents are ● (2015) directly employed at Seaspan and my entire constituency, indeed the entire country, benefits from their world-class work. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, our government has We are ensuring that the Coast Guard has the safe, reliable and placed significant emphasis on and made large investments in modern equipment needed to carry out important work, such as ice‐ oceans over the last mandate, including the oceans protection plan. breaking operations, search and rescue, and environmental re‐ sponse, all while creating good jobs and economic opportunities that will extend across the country. I have been mandated by the Prime Minister to lead the develop‐ ment of a blue economy strategy in collaboration with the Minister I value deeply the wealth of experience my fellow parliamentari‐ of Transport, the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, the ans bring to the House. It is an honour to rise today and discuss Minister of Economic Development and the Minister of Natural some of the great work we are doing and even more so to express Resources. 2378 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, the global economic activity the authority over the fishery, by appointing a third party mediator tied to oceans was expected to double to over $4 trillion by 2030. to do her job? Canada is lagging behind in fully leveraging our blue economy. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I would like to be very The strategy will help create good middle-class jobs and opportuni‐ clear that it is not a mediator. This is a special representative for ties for coastal communities, while advancing our conservation ob‐ whom a number of stakeholder groups had asked. We wanted to en‐ jectives. sure we heard from all concerned parties to bridge gaps we had I know how important the blue economy is to our rural coastal seen between the commercial harvesters and indigenous communi‐ communities. I am looking forward to working with all parliamen‐ ties. tarians as we advance this strategy. Mr. Surette is a well-respected member of his community. He has Mr. Terry Beech: Madam Chair, does she have any thoughts worked in the fishery before. He understands the issue. We are about the record investments we have made in the Canadian Coast looking forward to seeing his interim report in December and his Guard? final report in March. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the Coast Guard is ex‐ Mr. : Madam Chair, has the minister's person‐ tremely important to our coastal communities, to our marine envi‐ ally appointed special representative read the Marshall decision? ronment. We needed to ensure that the men and women of the Coast Guard had the tools they needed. That is why we are making Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I am assuming that Mr. significant investments in rebuilding our fleet and ensuring we have Surette has read the Marshall decision. I am sure he has at this the ships we need. point. This is extremely important as we go forward. Mr. Surette is working with the first nations communities. He is speaking to com‐ Some of our ships are going to age out very soon. We need to en‐ mercial harvesters. He is speaking to stakeholders. All— sure the new ships are available for the Coast Guard to continue to do the good work it does. ● (2020) Mr. Terry Beech: Madam Chair, I will use this very short time The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Tobique— to thank all the members in the House today, as well as the minister, Mactaquac. who are participating in this important debate. There is nothing Mr. Richard Bragdon: Madam Chair, perhaps it can be forgiven more urgent in terms of things that need to be tackled than the pro‐ that the minister appointed a third party special representative or tection and restoration of our oceans. If we do that as group, there mediator to deal with the fishing crisis before she read the Marshall will be abundant opportunities for future generations. decision. Now that she has read the Marshall decision, she knows The Assistant Deputy Chair: Resuming questions, the hon. that it is her responsibility to regulate the fishery. Why has she re‐ member for Tobique—Mactaquac. fused to do so? Mr. Richard Bragdon (Tobique—Mactaquac, CPC): Madam Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the Supreme Court has Chair, I will be splitting my time this evening with the hon. mem‐ made it clear that the first nations have a right to a moderate liveli‐ ber for North Okanagan—Shuswap. hood fishery. We are working with first nations to ensure we imple‐ ment that right. This is extremely important for reconciliation. It is I am glad to hear that the minister has taken the time to read the important to our government. It is important for first nations com‐ Marshall decision since she was before our committee last week. It munities. It is a very complex issue. It takes a lot of time and effort is one of the most important and foundational decisions as it per‐ to ensure that we get this right. tains to fisheries. We are committed to working with those first nations communi‐ Now that she has read the decision, could she outline for us the ties to ensure that right is implemented. role of the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard as highlighted in that decision? Mr. Richard Bragdon: Madam Chair, given that the Marshall Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and decision clearly outlines that the minister can regulate both indige‐ the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, the Marshall nous and non-indigenous fisheries for the purpose of conservation, decision is extremely important to ensuring we address the con‐ is the minister willing to ensure that conservation seasons are re‐ cerns of first nations. The Supreme Court decision was clear that spected by all fish harvesters? they have a right to fish for a moderate livelihood. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, conservation under‐ pins everything we do at DFO. No decision will be made that will The Government of Canada is working to ensure we implement affect the conservation of the species. We need to ensure that it is that right. I am working with first nations communities on their sustainable for the long term. Nobody wants to do anything that fisheries plans right now. It is extremely important we move this will change that, including commercial harvesters and indigenous forward. That is one of the things— people. The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Tobique— Mactaquac. Conservation will always be the number one priority as we make these decisions going forward. Mr. Richard Bragdon: Madam Chair, why did the minister de‐ cide to pass the buck and ignore her responsibilities under the Mar‐ Mr. Richard Bragdon: Madam Chair, does the minister support shall decision, which is the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans has the establishment of a second fishing authority, yes or no? November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2379

Business of Supply Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I have said many ● (2025) times, these are difficult negotiations. We are continuing to work with first nations to ensure we implement the fishery. We are work‐ Mr. (North Okanagan—Shuswap, CPC): Madam ing with them now on their fishery plans. A number of them have Chair, 11 months ago, the Prime Minister mandated the fisheries been given to us and we are working in negotiations with them. minister to make new investments to fight aquatic invasive species. Mr. Richard Bragdon: Madam Chair, is the minister currently negotiating the establishment of a second independent fishing au‐ thority, yes or no? When will the fisheries minister finally make those new invest‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I cannot prejudge what ments to fight invasive species? comes out of negotiations. Nor do I negotiate in public. These ne‐ gotiations are ongoing at the moment. We will do everything we Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, our government under‐ can to ensure that the right is implemented, but also ensure that stands the importance of protecting biodiversity and the quality of conservation is our top priority. Canadian waters. As such, we are focused on coordinating our ef‐ Mr. Richard Bragdon: Madam Chair, could the minister tell us, forts to prevent the spread of aquatic invasive species in Canada. yes or no, is she in favour of the establishment of a second indepen‐ This is so important that the Prime Minister included it in my man‐ dent fishing authority? date letter, as the member says. Management of aquatic invasive species is a responsibility that the federal government shares with Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the Supreme Court provincial and territorial governments. We will continue to work was very clear that first nations have a right to a moderate liveli‐ closely with them and our U.S. counterparts to make sure that we hood fishery. We are working with first nations to ensure we will be are doing everything we can to address the threat of aquatic inva‐ able to implement that right. That is a priority for this government sive species. in regard to reconciliation. Conservation will always be the number one priority as we go forward. Mr. Richard Bragdon: Madam Chair, I will ask one more time Mr. Mel Arnold: Madam Chair, five months ago, on June 2, the because I really feel this is important and Canadians are wondering, fisheries minister stated that these investments were imminent and from coast to coast. They want clarity around this issue. No one is that she would have more to say “soon.” questioning the indigenous people's right to fish, at all. What this comes down to, though, is this: Is the minister in favour of estab‐ lishing a second, independent fishing authority? When will the fisheries minister finally make new investments in the fight against invasive species? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we have been working expeditiously to reach agreements, with conservation as a top prior‐ ity in these conversations. I understand that the unknown is very Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I said, we are con‐ difficult for people. I understand that it is a challenge when we will tinuing to work with our provincial and territorial counterparts. We not negotiate in public. I know everybody wants to know what is recognize that aquatic invasive species are a real threat to our happening, but we will not prejudge the outcomes of those negotia‐ ecosystems. More has to be done. We are working diligently to tions. We are, right now, working with first nations to make sure make sure that we address the concern of these aquatic invasive that we are able to implement that right. species. This is hard work that we are committed to. I am going to Mr. Richard Bragdon: Madam Chair, we have heard testimony make sure that we do the work necessary in order to address the at committee from indigenous leaders, representatives from the concerns. commercial fishery, academics, scientists, former DFO employees and politicians, including the Liberal premier of Nova Scotia. We Mr. Mel Arnold: Madam Chair, as we have learned, a Liberal's have even heard concerns from the minister's own caucus col‐ “soon” could very well be never or too late, as is the case for league, a former chair of the fisheries committee, the hon. member Shuswap Lake, where an infestation of invasive clams was con‐ for Malpeque. The one common thread among them is that they are firmed just two months ago. unsatisfied with her efforts.

Does the minister think she is doing a good job solving this cri‐ When will the fisheries minister finally make investments to sis? fight against aquatic invasive species? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, this is a very complex issue. If there were a simple solution it would have been had 21 years ago. A number of issues within issues are involved. We are Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I said, the Prime continuing to work with first nations to make sure we implement Minister has put in my mandate letter the work to fight aquatic in‐ this right. vasive species. We are working with our provincial and territorial counterparts to make sure that we address these challenges. I know The previous government, in 10 years, did not sign one agree‐ that it is a difficult situation with these aquatic invasive species in ment with first nations. We already have two signed, and we are our lakes, rivers and oceans. We need to do everything possible. working diligently to make sure there are more. I will continue to This government is committed to making sure that we address the do that hard work. problem. We are continuing to do that work. 2380 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply ● (2030) We know that the fisheries rebuilding plans are important, and Mr. Mel Arnold: Madam Chair, as this latest discovery of an in‐ that is one of the reasons why we put them in the modernized Fish‐ festation of aquatic invasive species has shown the words of this eries Act. We are going to continue to work to make sure that we Liberal minister, and the three other Liberal fisheries ministers who are rebuilding stocks. preceded her, are completely ineffective in preventing the spread of invasive species. Canadians deserve better. Mr. Mel Arnold: Madam Chair, federal fishing regulations have For five years now, I have been pressing the government to act severely restricted access and opportunities for salmon fishing in against the spread of aquatic invasive species and the damage that B.C., especially around Vancouver Island, by using anglers as they will inflict on B.C.'s ecology and economy if not prevented. scapegoats in an attempt to look like salmon are being protected. The Commissioner of the Environment has also warned this Liberal Well-recognized organizations such as the Sport Fishing Advisory government, as did the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Board, which has worked with DFO for decades, recommended Oceans in a study last year. Both reports concluded that preventing mark-selective fisheries, which would have a near-zero impact on the proliferation of aquatic invasive species is a fraction of the cost stocks of concern yet would provide opportunity and economic re‐ of trying to manage or eradicate them. This minister and govern‐ lief in the area. ment sit on their hands while permanent damage is being inflicted on the aquatic ecosystems of the communities that depend on them. Can the minister provide an estimate of how much revenue has When will the fisheries minister take invasive species seriously been lost due to the closure of the public recreational fisheries on and deliver resources for effective prevention? the west coast in 2019-20? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I want to thank my hon. colleague for his intervention. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, our government ac‐ knowledges the challenges being faced by Pacific salmon fishery I know how hard this is. I know what a difficult situation it is participants, including recreational anglers. We are also carefully with aquatic invasive species. We are working with our provincial considering requests for a mark-selective hatchery-origin chinook and territorial counterparts to address the concern. We know that it and mark-selective fishery opportunities. Further consultations are is significant in some areas. We have been working on a number of planned to seek input on benefits and costs of these approaches as initiatives, and we will continue to do that. well as further discussions. I will commit to making sure that we do everything possible to address the concern of aquatic invasive species. We have invest‐ As I said earlier, this is not something I am averse to. It is some‐ ed $43.8 million over five years to prevent the introduction and thing in which we want to make sure that we have the right path spread of aquatic invasive species, but we know that more needs to forward, and that is what we are working on. be done. Mr. Mel Arnold: Madam Chair, Oceana has recently released its “Fishery Audit 2020”, which found that Canada's fisheries have de‐ Mr. Sean Fraser (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of clined under the Liberal government. Finance and to the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and As‐ sociate Minister of Finance, Lib.): Madam Chair, I will begin my Under this government's tenure, the number of healthy fish popu‐ 15 minutes of questions with the minister on the issue of the moder‐ lations decreased by almost eight percentage points from 2017 until ate livelihood fishery. 2020. To make matters worse, no comprehensive or meaningful re‐ building plans were released in 2020, and Fisheries and Oceans Canada only delivered on 14% of its published priorities. Obviously, in Nova Scotia in recent months, this issue has been the subject of much coverage and controversy. When I speak with Why has the fisheries minister failed to deliver on the other 86% those who are members of indigenous communities who want to of her priorities? exercise their right to a moderate livelihood, it is clear that they rely Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we welcome Oceana's on the law we adopted in Canada in the treaties of the 1760s. Of fisheries audit, and we will be reviewing its recommendations, but course, the right was embedded more fully and with some more our government has made several key investments that are already clarity in the Marshall decision of the late nineties. showing progress toward sustainable fisheries and strengthening our oceans' protections. One of the things I find to be a major source of frustration is that The department is continuing to complete rebuilding plans for when I talk to people independently, either indigenous fishers or priority stocks. Since 2018, DFO has completed rebuilding plans commercial fishers, a lot of them want the same things. They have for six of these 19 stocks, and a further two have improved to the grown accustomed to fishing alongside one another. They both, for point that they are no longer in the critical zone. For the remaining the most part, recognize the existence of the right to take part in a priority stocks without rebuilding plans, DFO has specific fisheries moderate livelihood fishery. I find it frustrating because my career management measures in place. These measures are going to ensure before politics was in litigation, where two sides would come to‐ that the limited fishing of the stocks does not compromise the re‐ gether completely in disagreement on virtually everything, yet we building. would often come to a resolution. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2381

Business of Supply In the present instance, I hear that there is an appetite to recog‐ are the ones built from the ground up with the communities, mak‐ nize a moderate livelihood, but it is peppered with fears. There are ing sure there is active engagement. The Eastern Shore Islands area sincerely held fears among commercial fishers about the ability to of interest encompasses exceptional coastal habitats, home to a very practice their fishery, because they are worried about the conserva‐ diverse range of marine species. I remain committed to a broad and tion outcomes that may arise if there is increased effort placed on inclusive process focused on the conservation of this remarkable the fishery. They are subject to rules that have been built up over area. decades. There are people in my office saying that they want to support increased participation among indigenous fishers, but they are worried for their livelihoods. Our next step is to meet with the commercial fishers and other I am curious if the minister can offer some comfort or commen‐ community members on the eastern shore to discuss and carefully tary around the subject of conservation and the importance that she, consider their priorities for the area. We are committed to continu‐ as minister, will place on that very important principle as any kind ing to work with local communities to effectively conserve this of a framework is developed to implement the right to a moderate unique place for those who make their living there. livelihood. ● (2035) Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, at DFO every decision One of the reasons we need marine-protected areas is to make we make is based on conservation. It is the number one priority. We sure we have fishing for generations to come. This is not to stop want to make sure that the fishery is sustainable for the long term, fishing; this is to make sure it is sustainable for the long term. for generations to come.

I will say that this is a goal shared by commercial harvesters as Mr. Sean Fraser: Madam Chair, during the previous Parliament well as indigenous fishers. This is something that we all agree on. I had the privilege of serving as the Parliamentary Secretary to the What we need to find is the path forward. I understand that, in Minister of Environment and Climate Change. In that role, I spent a coastal communities, our commercial harvesters are worried for lot of time working on conservation and came to learn about a mas‐ their livelihoods. sive potential extinction event when it comes to our biodiversity We need to make sure that we are not increasing fishing efforts. across the planet. Over the past 50 years alone, two-thirds or more That is one of the top priorities for me, as well as making sure that of the world's wildlife has vanished. The Minister of Fisheries and conservation objectives are met. These are tricky negotiations, as I Oceans has a responsibility to protect biodiversity within our have said. They are full of bumps along the way, but we are com‐ oceans. In particular, on the east coast with the North Atlantic right mitted to making sure that we find the path forward to implement whale and on the west coast with the southern resident killer whale, the moderate livelihood fishery, address the concerns of commer‐ I am curious if the minister can offer insight as to what measures cial harvesters, make sure conservation is the number one priority we will be implementing so these national treasures will remain and that there is not an increased fishing effort. here for generations long after we are gone. Mr. Sean Fraser: Madam Chair, I will shift gear slightly, though I will remain on the subject of conservation. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, with respect to the As the minister knows, I represent two coasts within my con‐ North Atlantic right whale, we have taken measures to make sure stituency: the eastern shore of Nova Scotia and the Northumberland we protect this iconic species. I would like to say this was done in Strait. On the Northumberland Strait is a marine refuge that pro‐ collaboration and co-operation with harvesters, environmental tects juvenile American lobster stocks. On the eastern shore there stakeholder groups and communities. Making sure we protect this has been some discussion in recent years about a proposed marine- species was important to all of us. We put some pretty stringent protected area, or at least an area of interest for potential conserva‐ measures in place this year and I am happy to say there were no en‐ tion going forward. tanglements of right whales in Atlantic Canada. That was extremely beneficial. We know it has been a challenge for a number of our I have had many conversations with the minister about the area coastal fishermen, but this is something we have developed in col‐ off the eastern shore. One of the questions that I receive from local laboration with them. We are going to continue to work with them fishers, particularly with the lobster fishery, is whether a proposed this year to see what happens and how we can best move forward marine-protected area would be designed to protect the ocean for addressing their concerns. the fishermen or from them. It has become clear to me over the course of the conversation that there is no limitation that would be placed on the lobster fishery, but I am curious. Making sure we are addressing the concerns around ghost gear is Can the minister talk about the importance of community en‐ another big initiative we have put in place. There is far too much gagement and consultation, so that we do not implement any kind ghost gear in the ocean. We have put funding in place to collect that of a conservation measure against the will or interest of the com‐ gear. We are working with our fishers to make sure that gear is re‐ munity? trieved so there will be no further entanglements. We are going to Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, when it comes to ma‐ continue to work to make sure we protect the North Atlantic right rine-protected areas, we know the ones that are the most successful whale. 2382 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply ● (2040) Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, it is interesting that my Mr. Sean Fraser: Madam Chair, of course in Nova Scotia the hon. colleague brought up Atlantic salmon and the challenges they seafood sector is going to remain an important economic driver go‐ are facing with regard to habitat degradation. We have seen the ing forward. Pre-pandemic, I was thrilled to see a major investment same problems on the west coast with the wild Pacific salmon. In‐ in the Halifax international airport that was going to have a serious vesting in coastal restoration is extremely important. The habitat for expansion of the air cargo logistics park to seriously increase the salmon, both on the west coast and the east coast, is critical to mak‐ export capacity of seafood from our waters to kitchen tables all ing sure that we are able to grow those populations of fish so that over the world. One of the things I have seen is when one deals we have a future fishery. I have met with a number of anglers and with folks in the seafood industry, whether producers, harvesters, salmon enthusiasts in Atlantic Canada about ways forward. processors, whoever it may be, those who are able to adapt and in‐ novate within their businesses are often able to create a new prod‐ We are going to continue to work with those communities and uct or improve the delivery of existing products in a manner that al‐ organizations to find the best way to make sure that we are address‐ lows them to hire more people in our communities and keep jobs in ing the concerns around the decline of Atlantic salmon as well. This rural Nova Scotia. Can the minister comment on the importance of is a priority for our government. We know that no species should the Atlantic fisheries fund to allow those working in the industry to become extinct or endangered. We want to make sure we are doing grow their business and keep more of our kids at home? everything we can do bring back those extremely important popula‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the Atlantic fisheries tions. fund is a real success story. It was so successful that we have actu‐ ally expanded it to include Quebec and B.C. as well. This is a fund ● (2045) that is available for fishers and producers to innovate their busi‐ nesses in order to scale up or do value-added. We know there is a huge market for our seafood products around the world. We want to Mr. Sean Fraser: Madam Chair, the COVID-19 pandemic has make sure we are doing everything to we can to support the indus‐ changed everything about the communities that we live in, the way try as we grow our fish and seafood sector. we work and the way that we live. During the last commercial fish‐ ing season, as a result of the timing of the pandemic in the spring, COVID-19 took its toll on the industry, but I am very proud of not far off from when my community goes to fish, there were a lot the investments we made there as well with the seafood stabiliza‐ of people who had serious worries about their health and working tion fund. We were able to provide money to processors who were closely on deck with others. able to better provide freezers and cold storage, which was a gap we had seen. We wanted to make sure that they had the ability to Obviously, record levels of benefits were extended to help people invest in PPE and all of the measures they needed in order to keep whose employment income or income from harvesting had been di‐ their workers safe during the pandemic. minished. These new investments were put in place to help them get through a time of difficulty. Nova Scotia is seeing cases spike. We are going to continue to work with industry to make sure we There were 37 new cases announced just recently and it is trending, are supporting them, so that our wonderful fish and seafood prod‐ frankly, in the wrong direction. I encourage anybody watching this ucts can go around the world. at home to follow public health advice. Mr. Sean Fraser: Madam Chair, conservation of our wetlands and waterways is extremely important. I have been fortunate to work alongside members of the community who have been work‐ Should cases continue to rise, would the minister be willing to ing on river restoration projects along with West River, for exam‐ continue to support commercial harvesters as they struggle to keep ple, in Sheet Harbour, and along the St. Mary's River throughout food on the table with the uncertainty that COVID-19 brings to the District of St. Mary's and elsewhere. their ability to earn a livelihood from harvesting seafood?

These are beautiful watersheds that could be enjoyed for recre‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the fish harvester ben‐ ation, and once had the ability to actually host sport fishing for At‐ efit and grant program delivered financial support that was much lantic salmon. As a result of a number of factors over time, the sus‐ needed in our commercial fisheries. We recognized early on that tainability of the salmon populations in these rivers has been with the measures we put in place as a government, they did not severely diminished. Through the work of these associations, we qualify because of the way that their enterprises were set up. have seen serious returns of salmon populations, in particular dur‐ ing the previous Parliament. Through the coastal restoration fund, a multi-million dollar investment saw each of these rivers have Our government has said we will continue to work to make sure restoration work completed. I recently took a tour with some of the that all Canadians are looked after. We are going to continue to do members of the St. Mary's River Association. that as we get through this pandemic. As my hon. colleague said, people should be paying attention to public health guidelines, but I am curious to hear the minister's thoughts as to whether these right now we are very focused on making sure that we are working kinds of investments could one day see a return of a recreational to address the concerns we are hearing in our communities and salmon fishery on rivers on the Eastern Shore and the District of St. from those on our coastal waters. We will make sure that we are Mary's in my riding of Central Nova? there to support our fishing sector. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2383

Business of Supply Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): with all our partners in the seafood sector to promote sustainability Madam Chair, I will be splitting my time this evening with the and productive commercial fisheries across Canada. member for Abbotsford. It was an interesting discussion that we just heard. The minister This, of course, is a relatively new deal. We are still doing our was much clearer tonight than she was at committee the other day due diligence on this new purchase, and we will continue to do the on conservation being the number one priority of her department. work we need to do to make sure that we are protecting the Canadi‐ That is good news. She also added today that her goal is no added an fishery. pressure on the fishing industry. I think she was talking about the lobster industry, in particular. Mr. John Williamson: Madam Chair, the other day, the minister complained I was putting words in her mouth. She complained the How does she propose to do that when there are potentially many leader of the opposition did the same thing tonight. I would ask the more entrants set to come into this important industry? There are no minister to get away from the talking points and answer these ques‐ easy solutions, she said, but we would like to hear her answer. tions. Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, since day one I Last year, Parliament passed Bill C-68, which amended the Fish‐ have said that conservation is going to be our number one priority eries Act. Conservatives supported elements of these changes be‐ when it comes to the moderate livelihood fishery and Atlantic cause they enshrined in the law two key principles: the owner-oper‐ Canada. This is a goal we share with first nations as well as with ator and the fleet separation policy. This legislation exempted first commercial harvesters. I am never going to do anything that is go‐ nations from these provisions. The proposed Clearwater buyout ing to challenge conservation. We need to make sure that the fish‐ sees 100% of Clearwater's Canadian licences being held by FNC ery is sustainable for the long term, and that is what we are going to Holdings, a company 100% owned by two first nations, and those do. two first nations are exempt from the inshore fleet separation and Mr. John Williamson: Madam Chair, I appreciate that, but the owner-operator regulations of the act. minister did not answer the question. With potentially so many more participants coming into this in‐ Will the minister put as a condition of her approval on the trans‐ dustry, she stated that she does not want to add pressure and conser‐ fer of these licences, which she is entitled to do, that FNC Holdings vation is her goal. How does she propose to balance all these com‐ will not be able acquire inshore fishery licences, contrary to the peting interests to ensure the fishery remains healthy and viable in spirit of the law passed last year? the years ahead? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we are currently nego‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I am quite glad my tiating with first nations to implement their fishing plans. As I have hon. colleague brought up the Fisheries Act and the modernization said many times, we do not negotiate in public. I cannot prejudge of the Fisheries Act. Of course, that had to be done because the pre‐ what the outcome of those negotiations will be. We are working vious government, of which he was a member, absolutely gutted with first nations to make sure that we implement their moderate the Fisheries Act. It took away protection for fish and fish habitat. livelihood right, but we also recognize that the commercial har‐ We put that back in. vesters have concerns that we will be addressing as well. ● (2050) With regard to owner-operator, this is something I have been committed to since the first day I was elected. We are working to‐ Mr. John Williamson: Madam Chair, is the minister considering ward making sure we have those regulations in place. This is some‐ quotas in the lobster industry? thing that is critically important to our rural coastal communities. I Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, no. am going to continue to work to make sure we address it. Mr. John Williamson: Madam Chair, that is good. Mr. John Williamson: Madam Chair, will the minister make it a Premium Brands Holdings Corporation, in its presentation to in‐ condition that the owner-operator fleet separation will be main‐ vestors, says that the benefit of the Mi'kmaq coalition purchasing tained under this new Clearwater deal? The company should not be 50% of Clearwater is a “strategic long-term relationship for the sale able to use this new partnership to get around the provisions that of inshore fishery catches”. legislate owner-operator and fleet separation. Also, the inshore fleet will continue to own those licences and they will be operated as the Can the minister advise the House how her department plans to law outlines. ensure that only in-season DFO-regulated lobster harvested in the inshore will be enforced? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I said, the previous Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, our government wel‐ government actually gutted the Fisheries Act. It was our govern‐ comes a collaboration between industry and first nations to grow ment that put provisions back in place to make sure that we ad‐ our Canadian seafood industry. This project represents a positive dressed owner-operator, and to make sure that we addressed the step in building strong partnerships between indigenous communi‐ protection of fish and fish habitat for the long-term sustainability of ties and the commercial seafood sector. We are continuing to work the fishery. 2384 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply We take no direction from the Conservatives when it comes to Their road to recovery requires a long-term view and close collabo‐ making sure that the Fisheries Act is where it needs to be. We have ration with first nations, as well as with all stakeholders in the made sure that we are doing everything we possibly can to address province. fisheries in Atlantic Canada and on all coasts. Mr. John Williamson: Madam Chair, the minister is back on her We have made significant management measures, introduced in talking points. Folks down east know the steps the previous govern‐ 2019, to protect the chinook. They were difficult but they were nec‐ ment, as well as the Liberal government, took to ensure owner-op‐ essary. These decisions were made to continue and strengthen these erator fleet separation was first enshrined in regulation, cleaned up conservation measures in 2020— and then passed into law. The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Abbotsford. We are looking for clear answers on this. Are you going to en‐ sure that this corporate deal does not gut the owner-operator fleet Hon. : Madam Chair, the minister did not quite answer separation policies and that the inshore fishery will continue? Do the question, but I am going to move on to the mass marking of not give us talking points that sidestep the question. Give us an an‐ salmon. swer. Fishers back home are listening and hanging on your every word because their livelihoods are at stake. Marking hatchery fish allows anglers to release wild salmon The Assistant Deputy Chair: I will remind the member that I back into the water, but keep the plentiful hatchery salmon. I am cannot answer the question, but the minister will be able to. looking at a 2001 DFO policy document entitled “A Policy for Se‐ ● (2055) lective Fishing in Canada's Pacific Fisheries”. Is that policy still in Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, it was our government effect? that actually enshrined owner-operator in legislation. It was our government that put owner-operator in the Fisheries Act as legisla‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I have said a num‐ tion. This is something we are committed to, and we will continue ber of times tonight, the mark selective fishery is one possible op‐ to be committed to it. Regulations are ongoing and we will make tion that can be explored in terms of fish retention, while reducing sure that this is— impacts on wild salmon. I am not adverse to a mark selective fish‐ ery. I want to make sure that as we go forward, we are doing it in The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Abbotsford. the right way. Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford, CPC): Madam Chair, I am here to advocate for B.C.'s recreational angling industry, as well as for the There are challenges with regard to the impacts that hatchery fish wild salmon on the west coast that are in precipitous decline. have on the wild population. We need to make sure that we have Between April and August of this year, the minister's department the right data. We need to make sure that we have the right mea‐ imposed unprecedented Chinook closures on the public fishery in sures in place to go forward with a mark selective fishery— Howe Sound. These closures have had a devastating effect on Van‐ couver's recreational angling industry. The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Abbotsford.

Why were there closures? Hon. Ed Fast: Madam Chair, I note the minister did not answer Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the question. I asked her, is that policy still in effect? I have to as‐ the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, our government sume that it is. She is the minister after all. acknowledges that it has been a real challenge for B.C. with regard to Pacific salmon fishery participants, including the anglers. Con‐ I refer the minister to page eight of that policy, which states, servation-based fishery management measures continue. We need “...mass marking of hatchery fish has proven to be a useful tech‐ to make sure that we are looking forward to future years given the nique to distinguish harvestable enhanced salmon stocks from wild poor status of the stocks. That is one of the reasons these decisions stocks destined for release.” were made. We know that it is difficult, but we are continuing to work to make sure that we can grow the stocks. We are investing in— At the fisheries committee in June, we asked the minister why only 10% of hatchery salmon are being marked. She was unable to The Assistant Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Abbotsford. fully answer our question, so I will ask it again: Why is she mark‐ Hon. Ed Fast: Madam Chair, Howe Sound has historically had ing only 10% of hatchery fish, when mass marking would dramati‐ an extremely low encounter rate on wild Chinook stocks, and a cally improve sport fishing opportunities without impacting our high prevalence of marked hatchery Chinook available for anglers wild salmon stocks? to keep. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, there are valid con‐ Why did the minister impose a closure on Chinook fishing in cerns that need to be thoroughly understood. For instance, the Howe Sound when she knew the devastating impact it would have mark-selective fisheries will still encounter wild chinook. We need on the public fishery? to make sure that the mortality of stocks of concern are accounted Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the at-risk Fraser River for as we move forward with an MSF, so that they do not adversely chinook salmon stocks face a number of significant challenges. impact the wild stocks. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2385

Business of Supply We know that this is an important initiative for recreational fish‐ when it comes to supporting our fisheries and coastal areas, espe‐ ers. We want to work with them to find the best ways forward, but cially those in my riding. In Cape Breton—Canso, the hard-work‐ we know that to do this work, there need to be a lot more consulta‐ ing women and men who make up our fisheries support rural and tions done. The department is currently conducting a pilot project coastal communities. Their catches end up on tables across Canada, with regard to the hatchery chinook in conjunction with the project providing Canadians with high-quality, sustainable seafood, year- exploring the applications of new stock assessments. These are all round. things that have to be done as we move forward. It is extremely im‐ portant for recreational fishers, but we have to make sure that we protect the wild Pacific salmon stocks. ● (2100) We have heard tonight that fisheries are the backbone of many of Hon. Ed Fast: Madam Chair, I do not believe the minister un‐ our rural communities. We understand how important it is that our derstands the issue. One hundred per cent of those hatchery fish are ocean environment is protected in order to support healthy, produc‐ being released into the wild. Only 10% are being marked. The 90% tive fisheries. That is why it is critically important to make invest‐ are out there interacting with wild salmon, so there is no additional ments that will support communities in accessing shared ocean re‐ incremental impact on those wild salmon by marking 100% of sources and spur innovation as we deal with impacts due to climate them. change and ocean pollution. Again, will the minister today agree to mark 100% of the hatch‐ ery salmon that are released into the wild? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, in speaking with the sport fishers in B.C. as well as with environmental organizations, I agree how the MSF can offer potential benefits for fisheries, and I I would like to talk about a few of the DFO investments that are tend to agree with them. However, it is incumbent on me, as the particularly important in communities across my riding of Cape Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, to balance this with the full un‐ Breton—Canso. I would like to start with small craft harbours. derstanding of the issue and the potential resource requirements needed to mitigate all of the challenges and concerns. We need to make sure that we are protecting the wild Pacific salmon, but we know that there can be a path forward with regard Investments in infrastructure are critical to economic develop‐ to a mark selective fishery and we are working diligently to try to ment in rural communities. That includes marine infrastructure. find that path forward. Here in Cape Breton—Canso, marine infrastructure is vital to so Hon. Ed Fast: Madam Chair, the time for delay is over. There many of our small communities that rely on the ocean for their can be no more procrastination. livelihoods. Our government knows this. That is why, since 2016, there has been about $484 million invested in new funding for the Washington state selectively marks 100% of its hatchery salmon, small craft harbours program. This is on top of the program's ongo‐ providing ample opportunities for American sport fishers to catch ing regular annual budget of $90 million. and keep marked hatchery salmon. However, here in southern B.C., the minister has failed to implement mass marking of hatchery fish and instead shut down the whole chinook fishery. Why will the minister not do for Canadian anglers what the Americans are doing for theirs? This represents more than 800 projects that are instrumental in keeping commercial fishing harbours safe and accessible for the Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I have said, I am not benefit of coastal communities across this great country. These in‐ adverse to mark-selective fisheries. We just need to make sure that, vestments have supported the growth of coastal communities across as we go forward, we are doing it in the right way to make sure that Canada, but we cannot stop there. We need to continue to make we are protecting the chinook salmon. these critical investments that will keep rural and coastal communi‐ These measures are difficult. We know the anglers want a more ties resilient, especially now during these unprecedented times. robust fishery. We want that for them. We are also carefully consid‐ ering requests for a mark-selective fishery of chinook and mark-se‐ lective fishery opportunities. Further consultations are planned, and we seek their input on the benefits and how we can best go forward with this. I would like to focus now just a little on the Atlantic fisheries Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape Breton—Canso, Lib.): Madam fund. Like small craft harbours, the government is committed to Chair, I will be speaking for approximately seven minutes and for promoting innovation in the fish and seafood sector. That is why in the remaining eight minutes I will have questions for the minister. March of 2017, $325 million was invested in the Atlantic fisheries fund. This fund allows the seafood sector even more future success I am happy to be here tonight to talk about some of the important by supporting market entry and growth, creating jobs and of course investments that this government is making in our communities supporting coastal communities that rely on the marine economy. 2386 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply This federal-provincial joint funding program has been used to national ghost gear prevention and mitigation strategies. It is thanks acquire state-of-the-art processing equipment, implement innova‐ to strategies like these that our government will be able to achieve tive processes for automation, improve infrastructure and other its goals announced last week, the net zero emissions by 2050. projects that will generate great opportunities for the sector. This fund has supported many projects in my riding, focusing on the ex‐ pansion of operations at various seafood processing centres like Louisbourg Seafoods in Canso, allowing them to reach markets There is always more work to be done and we know this, but around the world and, in turn, making a substantial investment to Canadians can count on this government to protect our environ‐ our economy. ment, whether it is on the land or in the waters. We are making real investments to ensure that our environment will remain healthy for In addition to the investments in the Atlantic fisheries fund and generations to come. small craft harbours, our government also understands the impor‐ tance of investing in clean technology, which is why, in 2017, $20 million was invested directly into clean technology for the industry. This program will help protect our environment while developing I would like to take the rest of my time to ask some questions of sustainable fisheries. It will also accelerate the use of sustainable the hon. minister. and more efficient tools, practices and techniques in producing and harvesting Canadian seafood. I am happy that our government will continue to promote sustainable and inclusive growth for the mid‐ dle class and that we are committed to protecting our oceans and The Department of Fisheries and Oceans does important work in marine resources for future generations of Canadians. every corner of my diverse riding around small craft harbours, as I just mentioned, whether it is working with harvesters in Chéticamp I would also like to spend a little time just talking about the mea‐ to support their livelihood or working with residents in L'Ardoise to sures this government has taken when it comes to combatting ma‐ explore ways to improve their community's environment. The work rine plastic pollution. It is the end of 2020 and we are entering of this department is so critical and so greatly appreciated in my 2021. We know now, more than ever, that we need to do our part to riding. Again, small craft harbours provide support to the commer‐ keep our environment clean of plastics and other pollution. This is cial fishing industry, and we are indebted to them. especially true for our oceans. Canada has shown leadership on innovation in fisheries, includ‐ ing industry-led initiatives addressing ghost gear and, for our The small craft harbour program keeps the harbours that are criti‐ whales, safe gear technology. Marine litter, particular ghost fishing cal to the fishing industry open and in good repair. Can the minister gear, is one of the biggest threats to our oceans. I was proud to see tell us about the work that is being done and how that has positively that earlier this year, DFO hosted the first international Gear Inno‐ impacted rural communities like the ones in my riding? vation Summit to focus on important areas of industry innovation. This summit provided an opportunity for harvesters, technical ex‐ perts, non-governmental officials and government agencies to share information and learn about innovative technologies and program‐ ● (2110) ming aimed at the prevention, reduction and retrieval of ghost gear, and reduce the impact of fishery activities on mammals. Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and During 2018, at the G7 meeting in Halifax, Canada strengthened the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, since 2016, we its domestic and international commitment to address marine litter have announced over $484 million in new funding for small craft by signing on to the Global Ghost Gear Initiative. As a signatory to harbours. This is on top of the program's ongoing regular budget this initiative, our government is committed to improving the health of $90 million. In total, this represents more than 800 projects. of marine ecosystems, safeguarding human health and livelihoods and protecting marine life from harm. ● (2105) We know how important small craft harbours are to our rural The new ghost gear fund is one of the many actions announced coastal communities. It is the infrastructure that drives our fishing under the strategy of zero plastic waste by this government to com‐ sector. We need to make sure that it is safe, that it is reliable and bat plastic waste in the environment, and it supports our commit‐ that it is built to withstand climate change. We are seeing a lot of ment to the ocean plastics charter. This $8.3-million investment small craft harbours that have been challenged because of storm will assist indigenous groups, fish harvesters, the aquaculture in‐ surges. We need to make sure that we are building resilient infras‐ dustry, non-profits and communities to take concrete actions to sup‐ tructure. That is one of the reasons we are making significant in‐ port ghost gear prevention, retrieval and responsible disposal. vestments in small craft harbours. It will also support fish harvesters to acquire new gear technolo‐ gies to reduce gear loss. This fund was identified by the Global Ghost Gear Initiative as the first time a national government has Mr. Mike Kelloway: Madam Chair, I am going to pivot on the dedicated a specific funding program entirely to domestic and inter‐ next question, which is about COVID-19. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2387

Business of Supply COVID-19 continues to have a large impact on this country. As ence. We have reinvested to make sure we are making our decisions we all know in the House and around Canada, many have been hard based on science. We have invested in over 300 new science posi‐ hit, and the men and women of the seafood industry are included in tions. that. I remember quite well, as does the minister, that when the pan‐ We are going to make decisions based on science. It is extremely demic hit, the government moved quickly to support harvesters and important to have the right people in those jobs. We are committed all those involved in the sector. My office has heard from countless to making sure that science is our number one priority when we are harvesters on this, especially during the past season. I wonder if the looking at this. minister could tell us a little more about the impacts that the sup‐ port measures announced by our government will have or have had towards harvesters. ● (2115) Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the government moved quickly to make sure that we were there to support fish harvesters Mr. Mike Kelloway: Madam Chair, those are my questions. with the fish harvester benefit and grant program. This was almost a half a billion dollar program. It was one of the largest single in‐ Mr. (Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, CPC): vestments in the fisheries since the cod moratorium. Madam Chair, I will be splitting my time this evening with the member for Chatham-Kent—Leamington and the member for It was extremely important for us to make sure that harvesters Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies. had the access they needed to make tough business decisions on a season that saw the collapse of export markets and the closure of restaurants. We needed to make sure that fish harvesters were able This past weekend, people around the world celebrated World to make the right decisions about whether or not they were going to Fisheries Day. This annual opportunity is to celebrate our fishers fish this year. and our heritage while identifying the challenges in the industry. The money that was invested definitely helped the industry. We are excited to see that there has been a good season for the har‐ In that spirit, as a parliamentarian, I proceeded to review the best vesters this year. and worst practices in our Canadian fisheries. Unbeknownst to me, Mr. Mike Kelloway: Madam Chair, many have spoken tonight when I reviewed the government's departmental plan, sustainability about engagement, as have you, minister. Engagement with our plan and the minister's mandate letter to further seek clarification coastal communities is crucial to maintaining a thriving fishery. We on where our fisheries have been and where they are going, I was can all agree on that in the House and in the country. astonished to learn that our freshwater fisheries, which are critically important historically and economically to my home province, were What is our government doing to support a stable fishery solu‐ not mentioned once in these documents. tion? In particular, can you talk about the initiatives to keep our oceans free from plastics and ghost gear, which I mentioned in my statement? Can the minister explain this obvious glaring omission, will she The Deputy Chair: I want to remind the member that he is to proceed to immediately apologize to freshwater fishers and can she address his questions and comments to the Chair. identify any priorities in her departmental plan that specifically ad‐ dress this critical sector? The hon. minister. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, during the 2018 G7 Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and presidency, Canada spearheaded the Charlevoix blueprint for the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, freshwater fish‐ healthy oceans, seas and resilient coastal communities. We have in‐ eries are an extremely important part of fisheries in Canada. That is vested $8.3 million in our ghost gear fund. This is a very popular one of the reasons we made sure that freshwater fishers were eligi‐ initiative that sees harvesters collecting gear out of the ocean. We ble for the fish harvester benefit and grant program. We are making have collected a great deal of it over the last little while. We know sure that we work with the provinces, which regulate the inland there is more to be done and we will continue to make sure that fisheries. We will work with them to make sure the fisheries are there are investments to address this program. monitored and that they have access to the same programs as our Mr. Mike Kelloway: Madam Chair, when I worked at Cape Bre‐ coastal fisheries. ton University, there was a slogan: “science matters”. Research matters, but in particular science matters. Under the Conservatives, Freshwater fisheries are extremely important in Canada. We cuts were made to DFO and science. know that. That is one of the reasons we are working with the I am wondering if the minister could speak about how this gov‐ provinces to make sure they have the supports they need during the ernment is supporting science at DFO. COVID-19 pandemic. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, DFO employs more than 2,000 scientists who research and monitor our oceans. Under Mr. Dan Mazier: Madam Chair, I guess that is why it was in the the previous government, significant cuts were made to DFO sci‐ mandate letter. 2388 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply The Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation is among the gov‐ Mr. (Chatham-Kent—Leamington, CPC): Madam ernment's most troubled federal agencies. Issues ranging from poor Chair, like my colleague from Manitoba, those in the Ontario fresh‐ management to dodgy expenses to high rates of workplace injury water fishery have expressed concerns that they do not seem to be a were common practices, leading to all provinces withdrawing from priority for DFO. In fact, I listened intently to the minister's open‐ their obligations. In 2019, the government recommended that the ing speech, and there was no mention of them. corporation transition to a harvester-led co-operative or an indige‐ nous economic development corporation. The minister's depart‐ mental plan identifies that she wants to ensure indigenous peoples Could the minister briefly outline the top priorities in the three- are empowered to make decisions about their communities, their year to five-year plan of the ministry for the Ontario freshwater fisheries and the industry. fishery?

It has been over a year. Will the minister commit today to meet‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, DFO works in collabo‐ ing with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs to discuss, identify and ration with the province when it comes to its freshwater fishery. As advance the prospects of transitioning the agency into an indige‐ the hon. colleague well knows, that is what has regulations for the nous-led economic development corporation? inland fishery. We have made sure we are working with the Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I have already met province. I have met with the provincial minister of fisheries to with a number of first nations chiefs in Manitoba. We will continue make sure the province is addressing the concerns we heard with to have those ongoing discussions. Reconciliation is extremely im‐ regard to harvesters during COVID-19. We are also making sure we portant to the government, and we know there is a lot to be done. are addressing the concerns around— With regard to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, this is one of the issues we have spoken about. We will continue to have The Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Chatham-Kent— those discussions. We know it is important for indigenous commu‐ Leamington. nities to market their fish. We will continue to work with them to make sure we find the best path forward. Mr. Dave Epp: Madam Chair, does the minister support the Mr. Dan Mazier: Madam Chair, the minister has identified in‐ work of the Great Lakes Fishery Commission? creasing investments in Canada's small craft harbours as a top pri‐ ority. However, year after year, freshwater fishers continue to wait Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the Great Lakes Fish‐ for improvements to their local harbour authorities. In fact, in the ery Commission does very good work. We know it is an integral last two years, there have been zero investments in Manitoba. part of making sure the Great Lakes are well looked after. We will continue to work with them. Could the minister detail what the department has planned for small craft harbour enhancements throughout the province of Mani‐ toba? Mr. Dave Epp: Madam Chair, the Great Lakes fishery has an economic value of over $8 billion, but it was largely decimated by Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, of course DFO looks the invasion of the sea lamprey. Economic viability was restored after all the small craft harbours under its mandate. We will contin‐ through the convention with the U.S., the treaty called the “Con‐ ue to work to make sure that small craft harbours are addressed, if vention on Great Lakes Fisheries”. The resulting control measures they need to be. were implemented binationally. We have invested significantly in small craft harbours since 2016, with over $480 million in over 800 projects. We know there Is the minister not concerned that Canada's $10-million under‐ is more to be done. We will continue to work to make sure that we funding of the commission threatens the viability of this fishery? address the issues around small craft harbours. ● (2120) Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the sea lamprey con‐ Mr. Dan Mazier: Madam Chair, over the next three years, the trol program is administered by the Great Lakes Fishery Commis‐ main estimates indicate that DFO plans to cut nearly $1 billion out sion to protect the native fish and species. This is in accordance of its current total budget. That accounts for almost 20%. with a binational agreement that Canada contributes over $10.6 million annually to control the management of the sea lamprey. We Could the minister explain how drastically cutting the depart‐ are going to continue to work with the Great Lakes commission be‐ ment's budget will in fact improve services, enhance our fisheries cause we are committed to the long-term sustainability of this pro‐ and achieve the priorities outlined in the department plan? gram. The Deputy Chair: Time is basically up. I ask the minister to give a brief answer. Mr. Dave Epp: Madam Chair, we contribute $10 million, but we Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, actually, this year's es‐ are $10 million short. I can say that eight Great Lakes U.S. senators timates show that we have increased spending at DFO by almost raised the issue with the Canadian ambassador in 2016. This past half a billion dollars. That has been done to help with reconcilia‐ spring, the U.S. Great Lakes task force met with a Canadian MP tion, the TMX accommodations and the renewal of the Coast Guard and a Canadian senator and again raised the chronic underfunding fleet. issue. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2389

Business of Supply What is the minister's response to these American concerns that What is the minister doing specifically to support this communi‐ the current government has known of for over five years? ty?

Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we know how impor‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and tant the Great Lakes Fishery Commission is to the protection of the the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, the recreational native fish and species of the Great Lakes. We have worked with fishery is an extremely important and vital part of our economy. We the Great Lakes commission. It is a binational organization with the recognize that. We know that the measures we put in place in B.C. U.S. We are contributing $10.6 million a year to the control and this year with regard to the wild Pacific salmon has impacted them. management of sea lamprey specifically. Aquatic invasive species We want to ensure we are doing everything we can to address their are a— concerns so— The Deputy Chair: The hon. member. The Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Prince George—Peace Mr. Dave Epp: Madam Chair, on October 23, the Walpole Is‐ River—Northern Rockies. land First Nation's chief, Charles Sampson, announced they were moving forward with commercial fishing in surrounding and tradi‐ Mr. : Madam Chair, instead of working with tional waters. groups on the water that are experts in fish conservation, such as the Public Fishery Alliance, the Fraser Valley Salmon Society or What is the ministry's plan in response? the South Vancouver Island Anglers Coalition, she simply went Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we work with first na‐ against sound advice and shut everything down. tions on reconciliation and a number of issues. We will continue to work with them. Fisheries is an extremely important part of recon‐ Why does she not work with these groups instead of against ciliation. Those are all questions and comments we are working to them? address as we go forward. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the wild Pacific Mr. Dave Epp: Madam Chair, the minister has stated that the salmon stocks are in serious decline. Tough measures have to be definition of a moderate livelihood is locally determined, so who taken to ensure we can continue to work to address the concerns are the parties to this determination and what is the process for this around the decline of these stocks. We know this has been very dif‐ determination? ficult for anglers. We are meeting with them on a regular basis to Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, moderate livelihood discuss their concerns and find the best path forward. fisheries is a Supreme Court decision that impacts the first nations communities in Atlantic Canada and eastern Quebec. The Supreme Mr. Bob Zimmer: Madam Chair, that is interesting as they sure Court has stated that first nations have a right to a moderate liveli‐ do not share your optimism, Minister. hood, and we are working to make sure we implement that right with those first nations. This is from Dave Brown from the Public Fishery Alliance. From April 1 to August 31, there were unprecedented chinook clo‐ ● (2125) sures placed on the public fishery around Vancouver that had dev‐ Mr. Dave Epp: Madam Chair, what is the minister's message to astating socio-economic impacts on the Vancouver guiding indus‐ the commercial fishers with existing commercial fishing licences try, marine industry and recreational salt water fishing industry. and quota levels, with respect to how their interests will be repre‐ Why were there no fishing for chinook regulations implemented for sented? Howe Sound when science showed there were plentiful chinook? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I have been working The Deputy Chair: I want to remind the member he is to ad‐ and meeting with commercial harvesters since day one of becoming dress the questions to the Chair. minister. I will continue to do that. They are listened to. They are an extremely important voice in the fishery. We want to make sure we The hon. minister. continue to work in partnership with them. Commercial harvesters have fished side by side with first nations for generations. We know Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the at-risk Fraser River there is now a gap there that has never existed and we want to make salmon face a number of significant challenges and the road to re‐ sure we do everything we can to address that. covery requires a long-term view and close collaboration with first The Deputy Chair: I want to remind members that they have to nations, provinces and stakeholders. Significant management mea‐ wear ties if they want to speak. All members need to have the prop‐ sures introduced in 2019 to protect the chinook salmon were diffi‐ er attire if they want to speak in the House. cult but necessary. A decision was made to continue to strengthen these conservation measures in 2020-21. These measures included Resuming debate, the hon. member for Prince George—Peace delaying commercial— River—Northern Rockies. The Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Prince George—Peace Mr. Bob Zimmer (Prince George—Peace River—Northern River—Northern Rockies. Rockies, CPC): Madam Chair, recreational sport fishing provides a livelihood and/or is a loved pastime for eight million Canadians, Mr. Bob Zimmer: Madam Chair, this is from Peter Krahn, a se‐ providing over $10 billion in economic activity per year. lective fishing expert. 2390 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply For the 12 years since the sport fishing community has been peti‐ ernment. We have announced over $484 million in new funding for tioning DFO to do a similar study of a selective fishing technique small craft harbours. This is over the $90 million budgeted annual‐ called bar rigs, which is virtually guaranteed not to intercept the en‐ ly. In 2019-20, my department worked on over 245 projects to en‐ dangered sockeye, why has the minister and DFO refused to do the sure that small craft harbours were kept in good shape and to meet required study and put the sport fishing community and the $1.5 the needs of the commercial fishing industry. billion in economic benefits and jobs in such peril when such a study would only cost about $225,000 and all the sports angers' time would be voluntary? As I said earlier tonight, small craft harbours are an economic Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I have said, we have driver in our rural coastal communities and we need to— had to take drastic measures with regard to the chinook salmon be‐ cause of the decline in the stock. We know that these management The Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Egmont. decisions are difficult. We know it has been hard for the commer‐ cial fishers, as well as for the anglers. We know they provide a lot of economic growth in the area. However, at the same time, the chi‐ Mr. Robert Morrissey: Madam Chair, I know the personal ef‐ nook are in a very bad state. They need to be protected. We need to forts the minister has put into securing sector funding for the fish‐ do everything possible to grow their stocks. ing industry through the fish harvester benefit and grant program. It is important for those watching to realize that the fishing industry is We will continue to make fisheries management decisions, but the only sector that has a sector-specific financial aid package as a will at the same time recognize— result of the COVID-19 pandemic. ● (2130) The Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies. Could the minister give a brief overview of this funding? Mr. Bob Zimmer: Madam Chair, Chris Bos, of the South Van‐ couver Island Anglers Coalition, has said, “The past two years, Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we recognized very where DFO have implemented catch and release from April 1 to quickly that when COVID-19 hit, commercial harvesters were go‐ August 31...it's killing the fishery and all those who rely on it for ing to be seriously impacted because of the closure of export mar‐ their income. They won't be able to survive too many more years of kets as well as the closure of restaurants. Because of the way their this. There are millions of U.S.A.-origin hatchery-marked chinooks enterprises are structured, they did not qualify for a number of the around Sidney, Victoria and Sooke that can be retained without any programs we had in place for relief for businesses. That is why we harm to Fraser wild stocks of concern.” came up with the fish harvester benefit and grant program. That was an almost half-billion-dollar program to support harvesters. It Is the minister's department considering 100% marking of all is the largest single investment in fisheries since the cod— Canadian hatchery chinook for proper and accurate conservation, as the State of Washington already does successfully? Science has proven its effectiveness in restoring Pacific salmon. The Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Egmont. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I have said a num‐ ber of times this evening, I am not averse to a mark-selective fish‐ ery. However, we need to make sure that as we go forward, we do it Mr. Robert Morrissey: Madam Chair, I would ask the minister in the right way and address the concerns we are hearing from con‐ if she could continue to elaborate on the importance of that benefit servationists, commercial harvesters and indigenous populations. to the industry. We want to make sure we are doing what we can to protect the stock, but we also know that a mark-selective fishery is a possible Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the money that was path forward. We want to make sure we are doing everything possi‐ made available to the harvesters allowed them to make really tough ble with the right science to make the right decisions. decisions with regard to whether they would fish for the season. A Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.): Madam Chair, I will be number of people took advantage of this program. They desperately sharing the last five minutes of my time with the member for Marc- needed these benefits because they knew the fishery was in dire Aurèle-Fortin. straits when we started COVID-19. They were actually one of the first industries impacted by the pandemic. They saw the decline of I have a question for the minister on the subject of small craft the fisheries in early February when everything was still moving harbours. It is a file that I know the minister is very passionate across the world. about and very involved in. Could she briefly confirm to the House and those listening the position of the department today, as it was when we formed govern‐ We knew it was important to ensure that harvesters had the mon‐ ment in 2015, regarding the budget of small craft harbours? ey they needed to make those tough decisions about whether they were going to fish this year. One of the— Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, there has been significant increase in funding since 2016, after we came into gov‐ The Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Egmont. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2391

Business of Supply Mr. Robert Morrissey: Madam Chair, the issue that is getting Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the Minister of Crown- the most attention, and one of the most serious on the east coast, is Indigenous Relations and I both appointed Allister Surette to act as the conflict between first nations fishers and commercial fishers. a special representative in this issue with regard to moderate liveli‐ One of the areas I hear the most concern about, and it comes both hood. from departmental staff as well as fishers both commercial and in‐ digenous, is the lack of enforcement capability within the depart‐ Mr. Surette is a well-respected member of his community. He has ment. experience in fisheries files in the past. His job is going to be to Madam minister, could you give an opinion on the level of en‐ meet with commercial harvesters, to meet with first nations com‐ forcement capability in the department? Is it adequate to do the job munities and to meet with stakeholders like the municipalities to that we expect it to? find out what the best path forward is in order to rebuild relation‐ ships, in order to provide clarity to industries— ● (2135) The Deputy Chair: Again, I remind the member to pose the The Deputy Chair: The hon. member. questions through the Chair. Mr. Robert Morrissey: Madam Chair, could the minister be The hon. minister. clear to the House, as was asked several times before, regarding the Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the C&P officers have commercial fishery. Who has the responsibility in the department to a very difficult job, but they do a very good job. We did see cuts ensure that the rights of the commercial fishing industry and the under the previous government to C&P, but we want to ensure they owner-operator policy that our government enshrined is taken into have the tools they need to do the jobs they are given. consideration during these negotiations and that the commercial fishers' rights are protected? I know that conservation is a top priority for not only commer‐ cial harvesters, but for indigenous people as well. We want to en‐ sure we have a long-term sustainable lobster fishery. That is one of ● (2140) the reasons we need to work to address the concerns around a mod‐ erate livelihood and implement the right that was granted under the Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I have met with com‐ Supreme Court decision. mercial harvesters on a regular basis throughout all of this, listening to their concerns. Making sure that we hear from them is extremely Mr. Robert Morrissey: Madam Chair, I would ask the minister important to me, as is making sure that Mr. Surette also has the to elaborate a bit more on this. There were cutbacks in the depart‐ ability to talk to them, so that when he files his interim report at the ment in the area of protection and enforcement. Is this a priority end of December, we will have another voice heard. that she sees within the department under her ministry, in continu‐ ing to staff the department higher in that area? We know how important it is to have the commercial voice at the Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, under the previous side table. That is one of the reasons we are listening to them. We Conservative government, there were significant cuts to DFO in a want to make sure that we address the concerns that they have. number areas, including science, and conservation and protection. We have reinvested in DFO to make sure that we have what we need in order to do the job that is so important in our coastal com‐ I am committed to hearing from commercial harvesters, and that munities. We have to make our decisions based on science, and yet is why I continue to meet with them. the cuts that were made under the previous government made that very difficult. We have reinvested to make sure that the science is [Translation] available to us. Mr. (Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, Lib.): Madam Chair, With regard to conservation and protection, we know how im‐ I see that there is funding for ships in the main estimates. portant those jobs are on the water and to our rural coastal commu‐ nities. We are doing everything we can to make sure that we sup‐ port the conservation and protection officers. Can you give us an update on the capacity of the Canadian Coast Guard? Mr. Robert Morrissey: Madam Chair, could the minister elabo‐ rate a bit on Mr. Surette's role, whom I view as a very credible indi‐ The Deputy Chair: The hon. member must address the Chair. vidual to advise you on this issue? You indicated earlier that he was going to report to you at a particular time frame. Could you just ex‐ plain a bit to the House his role as it relates to you, as the minister? The hon. minister. He is not doing the negotiations on moderate livelihood, but it is my understanding he is advising you and meeting with the commer‐ [English] cial fishers. The Deputy Chair: I can advise the member that nobody is ad‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and vising me at this point. I would ask him to use the word “she”. the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, the Coast Guard continues to make progress on fleet renewal through the national The hon. minister. shipbuilding strategy. 2392 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply In 2019, the most significant investments in Coast Guard history [English] were announced and included the construction of up to 24 new large vessels. All three offshore fishery science vessels have now Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, in 2015, when we first been delivered, representing the first class of large vessels delivered formed government, less than 1% of Canada's oceans were protect‐ through the national shipbuilding program. The Coast Guard is also ed. renewing its small vessel fleet, with eight search and rescue lifeboats and two channel survey and sounding vessels delivered in recent years. We set an ambitious target of 10% by 2020. We exceeded that. We are almost at 14%. We know there is more work to do. We are It is extremely important that the members of the Coast Guard now committed to protecting 25% of Canada's oceans by 2025, and have the tools they need to do their important job. 30% by 2030. [Translation] We know that the sustainability of our oceans is extremely im‐ Mr. Yves Robillard: Madam Chair, the Conservatives made cuts portant and that is why we are going to continue to make sure that to DFO and to science. we make these important conservation targets. Can the minister tell us a little about how the government is sup‐ porting science at DFO? [Translation]

[English] Mr. Yves Robillard: Madam Chair, the conservation of fish Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, more than 2,000 DFO stocks is extremely important for achieving a sustainable fishery. science employees research and monitor our oceans and our aquatic ecosystems across the country. Over 90% of DFO science employ‐ What initiatives has DFO implemented to protect fish stocks? ees work outside Ottawa.

Under the previous Conservative government, there were signifi‐ ● (2145) cant cuts to science. We reinstated a number of those positions. It is extremely important that we base our decisions on science. [English]

In keeping with promoting women in science, technology, engi‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I said in my open‐ neering and math, nearly 50% of DFO science employees are wom‐ ing remarks, one of the most important priorities for this govern‐ en. DFO science— ment is restoring the health of wild salmon stocks and other impor‐ The Deputy Chair: The hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin. tant fish stocks across Canada. That is why our government an‐ nounced an additional $107 million to support the implementation [Translation] of stock assessments and rebuilding provisions in the renewed Fish‐ Mr. Yves Robillard: Madam Chair, our oceans are shared with eries Act to sustain Canada's wild fish stocks. the entire world. We are working on publishing and supporting regulations. We Can the minister tell us more about what Canada is doing with its have launched fish funds across the country to support our regions, international partners to protect the oceans? including the B.C. salmon restoration and innovation fund and the [English] Quebec fisheries fund, both of which are are modelled on the very successful Atlantic fisheries fund. These are supporting projects fo‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, this year we signed on cused on building resilience through restoration, promotion and sci‐ with the Global Ocean Alliance to make sure we are committing to ence partnerships, innovation and the adoption of technologies. protect 30% of our oceans by 2030. This is an international effort to make sure that we are doing everything we possibly can to make sure our oceans are sustainable for the long term. Last month, I was happy to also receive the delivery of our third and final oceanographic— This is a commitment that we made as a government. We will hit 25% by 2025, and 30% by 2030. At this point, we are already at The Deputy Chair: The time is up. I am sure that the hon. min‐ 14%, and we know we have more work to do. ister will be able to add during the next question and comment. [Translation] The hon. member for Manicouagan. Mr. Yves Robillard: Madam Chair, the Prime Minister gave the minister a detailed mandate letter in which he set out ambitious tar‐ gets for the protection of the marine environment. [Translation]

Can the minister inform us of the progress that has been made Mrs. Marilène Gill (Manicouagan, BQ): Madam Chair, I have with respect to the marine conservation targets? several questions for the minister. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2393

Business of Supply I was not able to talk about Quebec's port facilities in committee. [Translation] As the minister surely knows, many communities in Quebec and in Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, I know that the minister was my north shore riding have no road connecting them to the rest of not the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast the world or the continent. Guard in 2016, but what has been done regarding ports in Quebec Be it the Magdalen Islands, the iconic Anticosti Island or the since 2019? lower north shore that borders Labrador, port facilities are central to [English] the history and the economic and social development of these com‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, with regards to small munities and to the lives of first nations. In short, we evolved in craft harbour investments, in 2019, we know that there has been on‐ symbiosis with the St. Lawrence River. going work. Of course, the COVID-19 pandemic did put a bit of a The minister probably also knows that the Premier of Quebec is halt on some of the work, but we are working to catch up. We will very interested in port facilities. In his book entitled Cap sur un make sure that we are addressing issues in the most— Québec gagnant, François Legault wrote that Quebec needs to be The Deputy Chair: The hon. member. able to count on the federal government to take on its share of re‐ sponsibility, especially when it comes to wharf maintenance, which [Translation] falls under federal jurisdiction. Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, there are some distressing situations in a number of communities back home in my riding and According to Mr. Legault, the federal government's disengage‐ in eastern Quebec. I am thinking about the port in Baie-Trinité, ment in recent years has rendered the situation completely unac‐ which is classified by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans as ceptable. Some wharves have become so dilapidated that they no essential to the town of Baie-Trinité. An assessment of the port not‐ longer meet the needs of recreational boaters, even though those ed that it is not safe and has an estimated life expectancy of zero wharves are an important part of the economy and very identity of years, literally. towns and villages along the river. Unless this situation is remedied, it could cost Quebec dearly. The port was last inspected in September 2019. What has the de‐ partment done since then, and how does it plan to remedy this situ‐ Does the minister agree with what the Premier of Quebec said? ation? [English] [English] Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I know how important Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, once again, I am not small craft harbours are to our coastal communities. That is why familiar with the specific port that the member is referring to, but I our government has invested almost $486 million in new money am happy to get back to her, and we can have a conversation with since 2016 to make sure that we are addressing the concerns around regards to that structure specifically. small craft harbours. Many of them need significant work. We know there is a lot to be done with regard to making sure that the [Translation] infrastructure is safe, sound and built with resiliency. Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, I thank the minister. Knowing that we are seeing storm surges with climate change, I could give her plenty of similar examples. The situation is the the impacts on our small craft harbours have been significant. We same in Natashquan, where the wharf was declared surplus 25 need to make sure that when we are building infrastructure, we are years ago. The department wants to acquire it. Currently it belongs building it for the future. That is why we are going to continue to to Transport Canada. Apparently the transfer is being negotiated, invest in the small craft harbour program. I know it is extremely but here again, it is negatively affecting the economic development important, especially, as my hon. colleague said, to the communi‐ and the very survival of the communities, and the first nations fish‐ ties she represents, where the only way to get to those communities ery as well, of course. There have been no developments since is through those harbours. April 15, 2019. We want to make sure that the infrastructure that is in place is The minister may not be very familiar with this file, but can she safe and that it is resilient for years and years to come, not only be‐ assure us that it is a priority for her? cause our fisheries rely on it but because our coastal communities [English] rely on it. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, one of the things that [Translation] is a priority is making sure that our small craft harbours are ad‐ Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, the minister said dressed, and that is the DFO issue. With regards to transport ports, that $450 million has been spent through her program since 2016. we do not have any authority over those specifically. Is she able to tell me how much of that went to Quebec? I am happy to talk to the member about any small craft harbours ● (2150) in her area that may need to be addressed. Those are what we at DFO deal with. They are extremely important to our rural coastal [English] communities, and we need to make sure that our fishing sector has Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I do not have that the infrastructure it needs in order to continue to maintain the in‐ number off the top of my head, but I am happy to get it for her. dustry. 2394 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply [Translation] When it is the department's fault, would it be possible to have the department admit it made a mistake and have it help the community Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, indeed, there are many, with what really is a hardship? many communities that need attention. There are nearly 100 wharves in eastern Quebec. I talked about economic development, [English] which is being undermined, as well as the future of first nations communities and land use. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I have said, we have I talked about Natashquan, where there was no road at one point. invested significantly in small craft harbours. I am not familiar with There is also Baie-Johan-Beetz, which is in a similar situation. the specific harbour that our hon. colleague is speaking about, Transport Canada tells us that these wharves are no longer in use whether it is an actual small craft harbour or whether it is a Trans‐ because there is now a road in some places. Traffic is no longer by port Canada port. There is a significant difference in terms of fund‐ sea but by land. However, these wharves have always been used by ing. fishers. I am happy to have my officials reach out to her to make sure I could also cite the example of Sacré-Cœur. I want to talk about that the small craft harbours in her area are the ones we are talking all the hardships that our small coastal communities come up about. against. Villages of 200 to 300 people have these infrastructures and want to keep them. They would like them to be modernized. [Translation]

A wharf in Sacré-Cœur that was divested several years ago is be‐ Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, I thank the minister for her ing modernized. The certificate of authorization was valid, but the response. village had to wait 18 days to start the work because of a delay in obtaining a signature that was caused by the department. This re‐ If the people of Natashquan, Baie-Johan-Beetz, Baie-Trinité and sulted in $100,000 in additional costs that had to be paid by a popu‐ Sacré-Cœur-sur-le-Fjord-du-Saguenay had gotten responses to the lation of a few hundred people. This completely compromised the demands they have been making over and over for the past 10, 20 project. or 30 years, we might not be having this conversation, even though I live on Quebec's North Shore, where winter lasts almost six I am happy to be here. I myself have even intervened several times. months. This means that the work schedule, despite the Department of Fisheries and Oceans calendar, does not work for our municipali‐ I hope that these communities back home will get answers, be‐ ties. This jeopardizes projects. cause they are facing other issues, such as environmental impact as‐ sessments. We are, of course, in favour of protecting the environ‐ I would like to know if the department will provide compensa‐ ment and conserving wildlife. However, we see municipalities be‐ tion and if, instead of proposing a one-size-fits-all solution, it will ing given deadlines that they may not have the resources to meet. tailor its assistance measures so that communities can keep the in‐ frastructures they are entitled to without having to pay for unwar‐ In addition, Quebec's environmental plans are not being ac‐ ranted mistakes or administrative delays. knowledged. That is the case in the last situation I mentioned. The [English] municipality is not allowed to move forward, even though the com‐ pensation was authorized in 2017. Yes, the law has changed since Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I said, DFO is re‐ then, but I would like to know whether the minister could ask for an sponsible for the small craft harbours program. We have invested exemption for certain cases, where projects are in jeopardy because significantly in that program. A number of small craft harbours Quebec's jurisdiction over environmental impact assessments has need additional work. We recognize that. We are working through not been recognized. We all know that the government will refuse them on a priority basis. to move forward with the project in this community and then turn around and buy a pipeline in the west. We will continue to do that because we know how important small craft harbours are, not only to the fishing industry but also to [English] the communities they support. We are happy to work with the member opposite to have a constructive dialogue on whether the Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, DFO works on ports she is referring to are actually small craft harbours or if they projects for fisheries authorizations. It is important to ensure that are something under a different department from mine. fish and fish habitat are protected. These are things that we made ● (2155) sure were put back in the Fisheries Act after they had been taken out by the previous Conservative government. We have to make [Translation] sure that we are looking after the fish habitat so that we can contin‐ Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, will the department commit ue to have a fishery. to compensating the municipality for cost overruns caused by the department? I mentioned the example of the delay in obtaining a I am sure that my hon. colleague would agree with me that this is signature, which led to $100,00 in extra costs. The minister did not extremely important, but I am happy to work with her to help ad‐ answer. dress any concerns that she may have. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2395

Business of Supply [Translation] However, as the only Mi'kmaq who has ever sat in the House, I Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, on another point altogether, think it is important to give context on who Donald Marshall Jr. for the last few years or decades, people have been feeling as was. To the Mi'kmaq, there is much more to this. We know the though their river is being taken away from them. In my speech man. I can think of his smile right now and his moustache and the earlier today, I said that people want to be one with the land. The bell cap he usually wore out and about in Cape Breton. He was river is not a border. The river is simply an extension of our territo‐ known as “Junior” to most of the Mi'kmaq because his father was ry. People want to have access to its resources and not be consid‐ the grand chief of the Mi'kmaq nation for 27 years, until his peace‐ ered poachers by the federal government. ful death in 1991. Does the minister realize that the people of Quebec would like to have access to this resource? I remember as a young child listening to Donald Marshall Jr. when he went to classrooms to talk about his fight to change the [English] justice system, after spending 11 years in prison for a crime he did Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, it is extremely impor‐ not commit. Donald Marshall Jr. spoke to Mi'kmaq youth at youth tant for all of us to have access to resources if we do it in a reason‐ conferences about his personal views of justice and what he en‐ able and sustainable way. We know that the St. Lawrence is an ex‐ dured. He taught about resilience and that each one of us has a re‐ tremely important economic driver in Quebec. We are going to con‐ sponsibility to fight for justice, whether in a courtroom, at home or tinue to make sure that it is open for trade with the Canadian Coast even in jail. Guard. We know that there is a lot of work to be done as we go forward, I remember watching a movie at a very young age called Justice but the Coast Guard is vitally important to the St. Lawrence, and Denied that talked about his story and his fight for justice. We often we are going to continue to work to make sure that it stays open as ask in Nova Scotia how this could happen. a commercial trade route. ● (2200) It was the focus of a provincial commission, the “Royal Com‐ [Translation] mission on the Donald Marshall, Jr. Prosecution”, which found, on page 1, “The criminal justice system failed Donald Marshall Jr. Mrs. Marilène Gill: Madam Chair, I am pleased to hear the at...every turn from his arrest and his wrongful conviction” in 1971. minister say that because yesterday at the Standing Committee on It called it a “miscarriage of justice”. It stated that the reason was, Fisheries and Oceans, I asked that we study the issue of recreational at least in part, because Donald Marshall Jr. was indigenous. fishing. Some call it sport fishing, but in fact, people just want to have access to the resource to feed themselves or as an economic activity, as is the case in the British Columbia, for example. How‐ Despite all he had gone through, just four years after his commis‐ ever, members from the minister's party, the governing party, re‐ sion, Junior was fighting for justice again, but this time on behalf of fused to consider this possibility. a nation. After years of litigation, the Mi'kmaq who had validated their treaties at the Supreme Court case in 1985 now turned to Don‐ Since the minister just said it, I just want to confirm that she ald Marshall Jr. for the most important litigation the nation had ever agrees that Quebeckers can have access to the resource for recre‐ been a part of. Unlike any other case, it was not about surviving but ational or sport fishing. thriving as a nation. It was a court case about a Mi'kmaq person be‐ [English] ing able to move from poverty to a moderate or modest living. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I think the hon. col‐ league misunderstood what I said. I said that it is important that we Elder Kerry Prosper, a chief then, described it as a win for our have access to resources. I am happy to have a conversation with nation. It was the first time many chiefs felt a collective win as a her about what it is that she would like to see. nation. Unfortunately, the jubilation for the Mi'kmaq and Junior Of course, when it comes to the committee, the committee mem‐ was brief. Only two months later, our Supreme Court of Canada, bers are the masters of their own destiny. They will make the deci‐ based on political and economic pressures, decided to clarify this sions based on what they think is important to study. decision. Mr. (Sydney—Victoria, Lib.): Madam Chair, today I rise during committee of the whole to speak and ask ques‐ As far as I know in my academic career and legal knowledge, I tions. I would like to speak for about nine minutes and then ask can point to no other Supreme Court of Canada case that has ever some questions to the minister for about six minutes. needed clarification. I can only imagine what Donald Marshall Jr. went through and what it must have felt like to hear his victory on I have been listening to the discussion tonight and a lot of it fo‐ behalf of the nation required an unprecedented clarification. cuses around the Marshall decision when we are talking about mod‐ erate livelihoods. Some will talk about it as Marshall one or Mar‐ shall two. To many MPs and people around Canada, it is just a In both cases the facts were the same and the verdict was the name on a piece of paper or the title of a case, nothing more, noth‐ same, which was that Donald Marshall Jr. caught and sold eels out ing less. of season and was protected by a Mi'kmaq treaty right to do so. 2396 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply Donald Marshall Jr. passed away a hero in 2009, a hero to his na‐ ty of conversations about some of the Mi'kmaq communal commer‐ tion. I felt it was important to give this context to the legacy we are cial fisheries that were left out in the discussions we have had over dealing with when we speak of the Marshall decision. I am only sad the past few months because several Mi'kmaq are part of the com‐ that Junior died before seeing his home community of Membertou munal commercial fisheries. They fish alongside all other fisher‐ become one of the owners of the largest fisheries company in this men during the seasons and have done so successfully for a number country. I congratulate his home community, Chief Terry Paul of of years. I can think of Crane Cove fisheries as one of them that, in Membertou and its council for making sure Junior's legacy will al‐ my home community, employs close to 100 fishermen who are part ways be a positive one. of this group.

● (2205) Could the minister speak to how we ensured that all fishermen I have heard people speak about the Marshall decision over the were part of the fish harvester benefit in furthering reconciliation? past few months. Many quote the case as if the Mi'kmaq lost this ● (2210) case, as if they did not have this right. Unfortunately, understanding the Marshall decision requires understanding indigenous case law Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, when we designed the from 1929 until today. fish harvester benefit and grant, we knew how important it was go‐ ing to be to get it to as many fishers as possible. That included first Understanding the Marshall decision requires understanding the nations with regard to commercial communal licences. We made Constitution of Canada, specifically section 35, which recognizes sure that it got to inland fishers, who would normally be under the and affirms all existing aboriginal and treaty rights, as well as sec‐ provincial jurisdiction, but we wanted to make sure they also had tion 52, which states: “The Constitution of Canada is the supreme their concerns addressed. law of Canada, and any law that is inconsistent with...the Constitu‐ tion is...of no force or effect.” It was an important part of reconciliation to make sure that first nations harvesters had the same benefits and were able to access the I wanted to give that context because I thought it was important same funding as everybody else, even though their licence structure for the Mi'kmaq, and for the House of Commons, to understand that is different. when Marshall decisions 1 or 2 are talked about, it means a lot to the Mi'kmaq people because he was one of our heroes. I miss him. The fish harvester benefit and grant program was a huge success. Many of us do today. It has helped, as I said, over 15,000 commercial harvesters and their I will now pivot my questions to the minister. I would like to families across the country. We made sure that they had the benefits start off by thanking her for her valuable work during the early they needed in order to get through this very difficult time. stages of COVID. I acknowledge her for the many conversations Mr. Jaime Battiste: Madam Chair, in the Fisheries Act passed in that we had about some of the difficult situations that were going 2019, among other things, two very important sections were includ‐ on within the fisheries in the early months in the spring and her ed in that. success in advocating for the fish harvester benefit and grant. Section 2.3 says: I ask the minister if she could give us the numbers of how many fishermen we helped in Nova Scotia during these difficult times. This Act is to be construed as upholding the rights of Indigenous peoples recog‐ nized and affirmed by section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, and not as abrogat‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and ing or derogating from them. the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, it is extremely important for all of us to understand what it means to be treaty peo‐ As well as this key clause, which is law and which I will ask the ple. I want to thank the hon. member for talking to me over the last minister about, under “Duty of Minister”, it says: few months on a regular basis about Marshall and helping me un‐ When making a decision under this Act, the Minister shall consider any adverse derstand the context of the Marshall decision. His input has been effects that the decision may have on the rights of the Indigenous peoples of Canada invaluable, so I really do appreciate it. recognized and affirmed by section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982. With regard to the question, more than 15,000 self-employed Minister, with all that is going on, do you believe these two sec‐ harvesters and their families across the country have received sup‐ tions were key parts of our government's continued commitment to port to help them weather the COVID-19 pandemic. I do not have reconciliation and ensuring nation-to-nation respect was continued that broken down in front of me, but I am happy to provide that to to be paid around aboriginal and treaty rights? him. The Deputy Chair: I do want to remind the member to address We do know that it was an extremely valuable program to fish the questions to the Chair. harvesters. It was extremely important that they had the supports necessary in order to make very difficult decisions when it came to The hon. minister. their seasons. This is a program that we were committed to making Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I want to thank Sena‐ sure we rolled out, and it has been very successful. tor Christmas particularly, who made the amendments to those Mr. Jaime Battiste: Madam Chair, the minister and I had sever‐ clauses to which the member has referred. That strengthens the act al conversations about ensuring that all fishermen were part of the and the language that we use when it comes to first nations rights, fish harvester benefit and grant program. Specifically, we had plen‐ section 35. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2397

Business of Supply All Canadians have to learn more about our obligations, treaty I am not really sure where my colleague is going with this ques‐ rights and what it means to have an affirmed right to fish for a mod‐ tion, but we are going to continue to take measures to make sure we erate livelihood. We have seen a real interest from people on this protect the southern resident killer whales. issue. The Deputy Chair: I want to remind the hon. member that the The Supreme Court upheld this decision and we want to ensure House has asked there to be a neutral background when members we implement it right. That is why we are working with first na‐ are presenting before the House. tions communities. The member of course is well aware of how complex the issue is. He has lived it himself. He knows there is still The hon. member. work to be done and we are committed to doing it. Mr. : Madam Chair, my question for the minister Mr. Jaime Battiste: Madam Chair, I would like to congratulate was about how much time southern resident killer whales spent in the minister on her comments in the committee of the whole their sanctuary area. Surely to goodness, this is one metric that tonight. I wanted to ask about the painting in her background. It is would determine whether the sanctuary area was effective. quite lovely. I wonder if she could give us some context on the painting and possibly talk a little about the artist. Again, can the minister tell us how much time southern resident killer whales have spent in their designated sanctuary areas, to the Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the painting is by exclusion of recreational fishers? Loretta Gould, a Mi'kmaq artist from Cape Breton. It signifies women empowerment. It was done for the women's centre in Cape Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I have said many Breton and I was fortunate enough to get a print of it. times tonight, I know the conservation measures we have put in place have been extremely difficult for recreational fishers. Howev‐ Mr. Blaine Calkins (Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC): Madam er, having said that, we will continue to do everything we possibly Chair, does the minister believe that Pacific salmon hatcheries pro‐ can to protect the southern resident killer whale. This is an iconic vide a net-positive or net-negative impact on Pacific salmon con‐ species. It is endangered. We want to make sure that it is here for servation? the long term, for everyone to enjoy. We will continue to work to Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and protect southern resident killer whales. the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, with regard to the recreational fisheries, we know this has been an extremely Mr. Blaine Calkins: Madam Chair, does the minister understand tough year. We know that the measures we have had to take to pro‐ that fishing lodges, guides and rural coastal communities relying on tect chinook salmon have been hard for the recreational fishery. We these businesses were devastated by the retention restrictions on want to make sure we work with them. chinook, coupled with COVID? Can the minister tell us why the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has not offered them any di‐ Again, as I have said many times, I am not averse to— rect support?

● (2215) Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I absolutely acknowl‐ edge the challenges being faced by the participants in the recre‐ The Deputy Chair: The hon. member. ational fishery, including the guides, the lodges and all of the peo‐ Mr. Blaine Calkins: Madam Chair, I do not believe the minister ple who make their living from the recreational fishery. However, I heard my question, because she did not even attempt to answer it, also recognize that the chinook are in a desperate situation. We so I will ask it again. Does the minister believe that Pacific salmon knew they need to be protected. We needed to take tough action. hatcheries provide a net-positive or net-negative impact on conser‐ We needed to make sure there were measures in place to— vation? The Deputy Chair: The hon. member. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, hatcheries are an ex‐ tremely important part of our fisheries on the west coast. Making Mr. Blaine Calkins: Madam Chair, mass marking would allow sure that hatchery fish are looked after is a DFO responsibility that for a mark-selective fishery for chinook salmon, which would be a we take very seriously. We know how important hatchery fish are, critical lifeline for these communities. Interior Fraser coho current‐ and we will continue to work with small community hatcheries and ly have a mass marking and mark-selective fishery and have had other hatcheries to make sure they are able to be sustained. one for years, with relative success. Interestingly, it is the interior Fraser chinook populations in that area that are struggling, so if it Mr. Blaine Calkins: Madam Chair, can the minister tell us how worked for coho, why is the minister so unsure that it will not work much time the southern resident killer whales have spent in their for chinook? designated sanctuary area, to the exclusion of all recreational fish‐ ers? ● (2220) Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, the southern resident Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we understand there is killer whale is an extremely iconic, important species. We have to an interest in a mark-selective fishery. However, my department did do everything we can to protect and recover this species. In recent not authorize a broad expansion of the mark-selective fishery this years, our government has taken significant steps to address the key year because of several concerns. Among those concerns were the threats to their survival. We have to continue to work with our part‐ potential risk of increased fishing effort and the increased potential ners and stakeholders to protect them. of mortality from hooking and releasing unmarked salmon. 2398 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply We have to continue to work on consulting with first nations and ing minister. When did she first start talking about this within the other interest groups on the mark-selective fisheries and, of course, department? on hatchery production. We want to make sure that as we go for‐ ward with this, we do it in the right way to address the concerns Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, with regard to illegal that we are hearing and make sure the stocks are well looked after. activity, recognizing that first nations have a right to a moderate Mr. Blaine Calkins: Madam Chair, if it is working for coho, livelihood fishery, as well as to an FSC fishery that happens in St. why does the minister think it would not work for chinook? Mary's Bay. CMP officers have been active there in removing traps that were not tagged or did not meet qualifications. Of course, I Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as I have said, we have would have had briefings on that very early on when I was appoint‐ had to take very difficult measures to protect the salmon species. ed minister. We will continue to take measures. We have seen a rapid decline. It is alarming and concerning to see what is happening with the wild Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Madam Chair, the minister was just salmon stocks in B.C. We know these measures are difficult for saying there were routine inspections of lobster traps in St. Mary's recreational fishers. They are difficult for everybody, but they have Bay over the weekend. to be taken to make sure— The Deputy Chair: The hon. member. Can she give us idea of how many traps were pulled and what Mr. Blaine Calkins: Madam Chair, I forgot to mention at the the findings were? start that I would like to split my time with the member for West Nova. Am I at the halfway point already? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I will say to the hon. member I do not have that information in front of me. I know that The Deputy Chair: The member can ask a very quick question CMP was on the water on the weekend. I know there were traps of the minister. pulled, but I do not have the exact numbers. Mr. Blaine Calkins: Madam Chair, what do the minister's con‐ stituents tell her, especially those with active knowledge in com‐ Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Madam Chair, according to the CMP mercial fisheries, about pinnipeds, their abundance and their effects officials in the paper, during their patrols they observed several is‐ on fish stocks? The minister was the chair of the fisheries commit‐ sues of non-compliance under the Fisheries Act. Some of them in‐ tee and a member of the committee. Numerous reports, by members cluded untagged, unapproved and tampered lobster tags, using fe‐ of Parliament from all parties, came to the same conclusion unani‐ male crabs for bait and non-conforming traps. mously that pinniped control is needed. Where is the minister on this issue? Does “non-compliance” mean they are illegal traps? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we are working to use Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, if a lobster trap does the best available science when making decisions with regard to not meet requirements, it will be seized by CMP. There are specific management and Atlantic Canada DFO has documented the im‐ requirements for all traps in order to make sure they have things pacts of the grey seals on the fish stocks in the southern Gulf of St. like the right escape hatches. Those are all things the CMP officers Lawrence and British Columbia. We are working with partners in will be looking for as they are looking at traps. doing more science to evaluate the impact of harbour seals and sea lions— Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Madam Chair, the officials also stated The Deputy Chair: The hon. member for West Nova. that there is an ongoing investigation into the matter. Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC): Madam Chair, I thank the minister for being here tonight especially at this late hour Will the minister tell us when exactly the investigation is going here in Nova Scotia. I want to take moderate livelihood and put it to to be complete, will charges be laid and will she commit to making the side just for a moment. that investigation public?

When did the minister receive her first briefings on illegal lobster ● (2225) activity in St. Mary's Bay? Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, as my hon. colleague the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Madam Chair, I would say that well knows, I cannot comment on ongoing investigations into any‐ I have been having briefings with my department on illegal fishing thing. That would be inappropriate, and I will leave it at that. right across the country since I was first appointed as minister. I am not really sure where my hon. colleague is going with this. Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Madam Chair, we hoped we would have an idea of how long this might be going on. Everybody in the Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Madam Chair, the question revolves world who has access to Internet saw the traps that were pulled and around the previous minister of DFO, Mr. Thibault. He said for a the article in The Chronicle Herald. I hoped the investigation could number of years there has been illegal lobster activity going on in happen quickly. St. Mary's Bay. When that was first brought up to the minister? I know she has How many routine patrols has the minister ordered over the last written letters for illegal activity in her own riding prior to becom‐ number of months? November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2399

Business of Supply Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, I do not order C&P of‐ Mr. Francesco Sorbara (Parliamentary Secretary to the Min‐ ficers to do their job. They are law enforcement officers who work ister of National Revenue, Lib.): Madam Chair, it is great to see outside of the minister. I do not direct them in any way, shape or you again as we continue our conversation this evening. I will be form. They are professionals who know what their job is and they sharing my time with the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands. I do it well. hope to speak for eight minutes or so because I have a question or two for the minister. Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Madam Chair, I will move on because I have so many questions and not enough time. In testimony at committee the other night, when the minister was I am rising with a bit of nostalgia. It will be great to chat with my asked about the definition of “moderate livelihood”, she said she hon. colleague, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, as someone did not have one, that it was something to be decided on by the who now represents a very urban riding in Vaughan—Woodbridge community she was dealing with. We have an ATIP on a moderate but who grew up in a small town in northern British Columbia livelihood gap analysis with 21 pages of the 23 pages blacked out. called Prince Rupert, and who still has family there and whose par‐ Could you table that document for folks to see? ents immigrated to Canada. My mother and her four or five sisters all, at one point in their lives, worked at a cannery, whether it was The Deputy Chair: I would remind the member he is to address B.C. Packers or J.S. McMillan Fisheries or the co-op fisheries. all questions and comments through the Chair. Prince Rupert is known as the capital of halibut, as one sees when The hon. minister. one drives into the town. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, with respect to the def‐ inition of “moderate livelihood”, that is not something the Govern‐ I have very many fond memories. I actually worked at a cannery ment of Canada is going to impose on first nations. That is deter‐ growing up, and on the weekends my family would go out for a mined by the first nations communities. Every community looks at picnic along the Skeena River and go fishing for chum, sockeye, this differently. We want to ensure we work with them in the nego‐ spring salmon or coho, and sometimes trout. It would be a very fas‐ tiation process to address what a moderate livelihood is to them. cinating time. The last thing a first nations community wants is the Government of Canada dictating to it what it think a moderate livelihood should be. I would like to echo some of the things that the minister has spo‐ ken about today, and let Canadians know about some of the great Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Madam Chair, the minister already has work that is being done at Fisheries and Oceans under the minister a definition. Her department did a gap analysis on it. We have a and this government. document with 21 pages blacked out. Therefore, it would be nice for the sake of transparency that we see what those are. I have a quick question about Mr. Surette. The minister said that Canadians know that climate change is real and we are witness‐ she was consulting with the industry. Which industry members sug‐ ing impacts that are directly affecting Canadians and our coastal gested Mr. Surette? communities. With the longest coastline in the world, our oceans are home to diverse ecosystems that support not only marine life Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, with respect to Mr. but Canadians across the country who depend on it. With warming Surette, what I said was that a number of ministry representatives temperatures, we are seeing warming waters and ocean acidifica‐ wanted to see someone they could talk to outside of DFO. That is tion, which is leading to less oxygen in our waters. what we have put in place with Mr. Surette. He is, as the member for West Nova knows, a very well-respected member of the com‐ munity. He is someone who has a knowledge of fisheries issues and These changes are threatening the health of the species that live he will be a valuable asset to us as we move this file forward. in our waters, including our fisheries, which not only contribute to Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Madam Chair, commercial fishery dis‐ ocean biodiversity but to our ocean economy. Canada's commercial tricts 33 and 34 are opening next Monday. Why did the department sea and freshwater fish landings is, on average, over $3.7 billion a ask for an interim report well after that season got under way? Why year. Catches from our waters end up on dinner tables and in would it not have asked for that before? restaurants all across the country and, yes, around the world. Can the minister table the terms of reference from Mr. Surette? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, it is important to note Supporting ocean biodiversity is helping to also support our that an interim report is due at the end of December, but the final economy. This is why it is imperative that we continue to invest in report is not due until March. Mr. Surette has been working on this ocean protection and work with the provinces and territories with a for a while now. He has already had a number of meetings with renewed focus on collaboration to conserve this important resource. commercial harvesters and with stakeholders. We have regular up‐ This is exactly what our government has been doing from coast to dates from him. I know that it is important that we get an interim coast to coast. This minister is working with provinces and territo‐ report from him in December, and he is going to continue to do the ries to ensure that our fisheries and oceans remain protected and work he needs to do in order for us to move this forward. healthy. 2400 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply I want to first speak to the capacity building at DFO, undertaken This is real progress. It is without a doubt that science underpins by this government after being elected by Canadians, following the decision-making at DFO. Investments in science are important in major and devastating cuts brought forth by the Conservative Party. ensuring that we have the information we need to protect our fish When the Conservatives were in power, it was their mission to stocks, our coastal areas and our marine ecosystems. That is pre‐ weaken science, to ignore science and to remove protections from cisely why this Liberal government has made investments in sci‐ our oceans and fisheries. They believed that by slashing science, ence, not just at DFO, but across departments, a priority. this would help with project development.

On this side of the aisle, Liberals believe that we can still put in I also want to touch quickly on marine conservation. Protecting place strong protections and support industry development. An ex‐ our oceans is important. It not only ensures that we are conserving ample of this is the Fisheries Act. In 2018, our government intro‐ ecologically significant areas to maintain biodiversity, but support‐ duced Bill C-68 to modernize the Fisheries Act and restore lost pro‐ ing marine conservation also means helping keep our fisheries tections to fish and fish habitat after the Conservative government healthy, which supports many of our coastal communities. It is in gutted the act. Even more shameful, the Conservatives did this un‐ everyone's interest that we find ways to work with communities to der the omnibus budget bill so that they could force changes protect our oceans. through without due consideration from elected parliamentarians. It was so bad that four former fisheries ministers opposed the changes, two of whom were, notably, Conservatives. Over the last five years under a Liberal government, Canada has Let me quote former Conservative minister, the Hon. Tom Sid‐ protected almost 14% of our marine coastal areas, up from just un‐ don, who said: der 1% under the former Conservative government. Indeed, this is something that Canadians should all be proud of. The real scary part of this is that the one minister in Canada who has the consti‐ tutional duty to protect the fishery...is the Fisheries Minister. These amendments es‐ sentially parcel out and water down his fiduciary responsibility, to the point that...he can delegate his responsibility to private-sector interests and individuals.... I do wish to ask the Minister of Fisheries a question, going back to the province I was raised in. The Department of Fisheries and He also said, “it’s appalling that they should be attempting to do Oceans invested heavily to support the migration and improve Pa‐ this under the radar.” cific salmon stocks. How much has been invested to support British However, I am proud to say that, in the last year, our government Columbia salmon restoration and innovation? How is this improv‐ passed the renewed Fisheries Act that restored lost protections that ing Pacific salmon? were previously stripped by the Conservatives, and modernized it to include important inshore owner-operator policies, fish-stocking ● (2235) rebuilding provisions and more certainty for industry. ● (2230) Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and Not only is the Fisheries Act strengthened when it comes to fish the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I want to thank my protection, but there is a clear permitting framework for develop‐ hon. colleague for his intervention and his speech. It was very ment projects to ensure that industries have the regulations they good. need to move forward when it comes to large and small projects.

I would also like to add that our Liberal government introduced I will say our government has invested significantly in not only further amendments to Bill C-68 last year, which included a ban on the B.C. salmon program, which we run in collaboration with the keeping whales in captivity and a ban on shark finning. Both these Province of British Columbia to restore habitat, but also the Big issues had previously been identified as individual private mem‐ Bar landslide. This has been a significant investment for our gov‐ ber's bills that the Conservatives were trying to block. Following ernment. royal assent, Canada became the first G7 country to ban shark finning, and that is something that Canadians should be proud of. On top of making important changes to legislation, our govern‐ The landslide, which happened in July of last year, actually ment has been making investments and taking action to build sci‐ blocked the Fraser River salmon. We needed to make sure we did ence capacity at DFO. Most Canadians will remember that the for‐ everything possible to address those concerns. Over $20 million has mer Conservative government made $100 million in cuts to DFO, been invested to date to try to make sure that we see those stocks eliminated 500 jobs, and muzzled scientists. In fact, it even closed returning in the Fraser River. seven of DFO's 11 libraries, which contain world-class research, and attempted to close down the Experimental Lakes Area, a facili‐ ty that boosts leading scientific research regarding freshwater sys‐ We are going to continue to work in collaboration with first na‐ tems. tions and the province to make sure that we are addressing the habi‐ tat restoration that needs to be done in coastal British Columbia. Since 2016, our government has hired almost 300 new science We know that is an integral part of making sure that we rebuild the staff, and between 2016 and 2021, this government will have in‐ salmon stocks. We are going to work with the provinces to make vested over $500 million in marine and freshwater science. sure we do that. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2401

Business of Supply Mr. Francesco Sorbara: Mr. Chair, we know that gillnets are I want to move to the issue of recommendation 19 of the Cohen the most widely used and implemented salmon harvesting tool on Commission and the Discovery Islands. The minister and I ex‐ the Fraser River both by first nations and commercial harvesters. changed concerns about this issue during question period some Salmon stocks are of concern and sturgeon are incidentally encoun‐ months ago. I am desperately concerned that the Department of tered in gillnets targeting more abundant species. What is this gov‐ Fisheries and Oceans constructed its review of the threat to wild ernment doing to help this species? salmon from the fish farms specifically excluding the parasitic ef‐ fect of the sea lice that escape and affect wild salmon. It did not Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, in 2019, the department take those into consideration. Within the minister's own depart‐ implemented a substantial new fishery closure in southern British ment, Dr. Kristi Miller has done important work on this, which ap‐ Columbia. This measure included a 42-day closure for all commer‐ pears to have been excluded from consideration. cial nets, including gillnets, and a 27-day closure for the first na‐ tions food, social and ceremonial fisheries, including gillnets within the Fraser River. These decisions were taken as a precautionary ap‐ Why is it that we have not taken action, as the Cohen Commis‐ proach, given the uncertain information. We were informed by con‐ sion recommended, to protect our wild salmon? sultations with all interested parties. We know a lot more needs to be done to protect our wild Pacific Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, first of all, I would like to salmon. We are going to continue to do that hard work to ensure we clarify for my hon. colleague that we actually have contracted for protect this stock. the Big Bar ladder. That is the natural fish passageway. I want to clarify that it has been contracted. We are working on that. We ● (2240) know it is an important part of making sure the salmon are able to Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP): Mr. Chair, I traverse the river. thank my hon. colleague for splitting his time with me. I also want to make note and thank a previous speaker, the member for Syd‐ With regard to the Discovery Islands, protecting the wild Pacific ney—Victoria. Wela'lin. For people staying up late to watch the salmon is a priority for us, and we recognize the first nations' his‐ main estimates on fisheries, it was an important historical, personal toric cultural connection to wild salmon. Our government manages and very relevant step toward reconciliation to understand who risk from sea lice using a science-based adaptive management ap‐ Donald Marshall Jr. really was. proach. This spring, in consultation with our partners, my depart‐ ment revised the licences of marine aquaculture finfish operators in I will ask the hon. member a number of questions. They are in British Columbia to increase the enforceability of licence condi‐ the context of my extreme level of panic that Pacific wild salmon tions pertaining to the management of sea lice. That is a step we are are in collapse and that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans taking to address the concerns around sea lice. does not seem to understand the level of urgency around a multi‐ faceted and multi-layered crisis. With regard to the Discovery Islands specifically and the Cohen I will focus with my bit of time on some very specific questions. Commission, one of the things we heard loud and clear from the first nations in those areas was that we could not make a unilateral Based on advice that the fisheries and oceans committee heard decision on the fish farms. They are in their territorial waters, and before prorogation, the only thing to do with the Big Bar slide to they wanted to have a say. They knew it was important we make help the salmon in the Fraser River is to get a fish ladder in place. the decision, but they wanted to make sure they were— Has the Department of Fisheries and Oceans commissioned and contracted for the engineering and construction of a fish ladder as a permanent solution on the Big Bar slide? The Chair: We have to leave enough time for one more quick question. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, with regard to the Big Bar landslide, we have made significant progress but know that more has to be done. We are currently in the process of building a natural The hon. member for Saanich—Gulf Islands. fish passageway. That is one of the things that has to be done to make sure we address the concerns in the Fraser River with regard Ms. Elizabeth May: With respect, Mr. Chair, the department had to the slide. plenty of time to consult between the Cohen Commission report and when we did not take those recommendations. We have been taking a multi-level government approach to this. We have the province behind us, we have worked with indigenous communities in the area and we are going to continue to do every‐ To the southern resident killer whales, I have had other discus‐ thing we possibly can to address this concern. sions with the department about the sanctuary areas on Pender Is‐ land and Saturna Island. Not a single fine has been levied. No one Ms. Elizabeth May: Mr. Chair, I take it the answer, then, is no. I who has violated the sanctuary for the whales has faced any punish‐ would urge the minister to look at the testimony we had before the ment. fisheries and oceans committee specifically from first nations lead‐ ership that the only solution, and it is going to be expensive, is a permanent solution with engineering and building a fish ladder. It Can the minister commit to a much better and more robust pro‐ must done. tection of our southern resident killer whales? 2402 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, absolutely, we are commit‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, as I have said, this is a ted to making sure we protect this iconic species. We are taking a very important report. We are actually engaging right now on a number of measures to address the concerns that we hear with re‐ number of the recommendations to make sure we are well in‐ gard to the southern resident killer whales. We are going to contin‐ formed, as we go forward, to make the decisions. We have contract‐ ue to work with stakeholders and environmental organizations to ed an analysis to be done between Atlantic and Pacific commercial make sure that we are addressing concerns. fishing policies and regulations. We know how important this is to our coastal communities in British Columbia, and that is why we This is an iconic species that nobody wants to become extinct. are taking the time to make sure we do the consultations necessary We are going to do everything we can to make sure that we protect to get it right. it. ● (2245) Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Mr. Chair, could the minister inform the Mr. Taylor Bachrach (Skeena—Bulkley Valley, NDP): Mr. House what the timeline is for implementing the recommendations Chair, I will be splitting my time with the member for Courtenay— in the report? Alberni. I have about 10 minutes of questions for the minister and afterward, my hon. colleague will take the remaining five minutes Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, as I have said, right now to round out the evening. we are engaging in the consultations. This will take a bit of time. I do not have a firm timeline in front of me right now, but we know it I would like to start by acknowledging the member for Vaugh‐ is important to make sure we hear from a number of stakeholders an—Woodbridge, who began his remarks talking about Prince Ru‐ on this issue— pert and his roots in that beautiful community. That is where I would like to start my remarks as well. ● (2250) I was speaking yesterday with Joy Thorkelson with the fisher‐ The Chair: The hon. member. men's union and told her that I had this opportunity this evening. She was talking to me about the report on the west coast fisheries licence reform, with which I know the minister is very familiar. Ms. Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Mr. Chair, funding for west coast salmon Thorkelson feels that the recommendations in this report hold a lot stock assessment has been falling since the 1980s. Of course, it was of promise for her industry. She understands that there are consulta‐ the worst under the former Stephen Harper government, but despite tions going on at this point, but she does not know anyone who has the recommendations from former Liberal fisheries ministers, those been consulted. funding levels have still not been restored to the levels they need to be. I would like to ask the minister who precisely is being consulted at this time on the west coast fisheries licence reform report and Stock assessment is particularly important in light of climate whether anyone on the north coast of British Columbia is being change, which, as the minister well knows, is causing a number of consulted. impacts on wild salmon on the west coast. The runs are not as con‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and sistent as they used to be. We used to have people walking hun‐ the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I want to thank the dreds and hundreds of streams on the west coast to assess stocks. Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans for this report. This We do not anymore, and we need that information to make good was an extremely important report with regard to west coast licens‐ fisheries decisions. ing. We are working to engage stakeholders in British Columbia to identify priority fisheries management and licensing concerns. I do Can the minister tell us if she plans to follow through on the not have the list in front of me with regard to who is being consult‐ promises of previous Liberal fisheries ministers and restore stock ed, but I can follow up with the member directly to make sure he assessment funding? has that. We need to inform ongoing west coast licensing review. We have Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, under the modernized actually contracted a comparative analysis of Atlantic and Pacific Fisheries Act, it is imperative for us to have rebuilding plans in commercial fishing policies and regulations and we have initiated a place for stocks. We are diligently working on those now, especial‐ review of the existing foreign ownership restrictions as well. We ly for critical stocks that are under threat. We have initiated a num‐ know that there is a lot of work to be done. We do appreciate the ber of rebuilding plans. There is more to be done, but we are going hard work of the committee in bringing this forward. to continue this extremely important work. Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Mr. Chair, the reason these recommenda‐ tions are so important, and I believe the minister will agree, is that For me, this is not about conserving a species; it is about grow‐ it is vitally important that we keep as much of the value of the west ing it. We need to have abundance in our fisheries, and that is one coast catch in the hands of actual fishermen, especially after two of of the things I am committed to. the worst seasons on record. Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Mr. Chair, the focus of that last question Can the minister give us some sense of whether her department was really around whether the stock assessment funding was going is committed to implementing the 20 recommendations from the re‐ to be restored. I did not hear a specific answer to that question, but I port on west coast fisheries licence reform? look forward to engaging with the minister in the future. November 24, 2020 COMMONS DEBATES 2403

Business of Supply One of the things I hear when I talk to people in the Skeena wa‐ are an important opportunity to support first nations, such as the tershed about wild salmon is that community consultation and com‐ Gitxzan, the Wet’suwet’en, the Lake Babine Nation and the Gitany‐ munity engagement by DFO are sorely lacking. The department's ow, who are working to rebuild salmon stocks that historically were consultations focus on dealing with specific stakeholders and first vital for food. nations, but as we know wild salmon affect all of our communities in the northwest. In some cases, NGOs are taking up this role, but it should be DFO's job to engage communities in these vital deci‐ What is the timeline for fully operationalizing the new Fisheries sions. Act? Does the minister recognize that the current approach to public engagement is deficient? Will she commit to resourcing and carry‐ ing out broader community engagement in northwest B.C., particu‐ Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, it is extremely important larly with upriver communities that depend on wild salmon? for us to make sure the new Fisheries Act is fully operational. Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, it is extremely important that communities feel like they are part of the engagement process. That is something we have seen in British Columbia particularly: We have put a number of rebuilding plans in place already. There how engaged the local communities are with regard to habitat is more to be done. Some of the ones that needed a rebuilding plan restoration. We have seen that through the B.C. SRIF program. are now out of the critical zone. We are continuing to do that work. There have already been six rebuilding plans done out of 18. We We will continue to work to make sure that we are addressing the know there is more to do. There are some coming in the very near concerns around communities that are impacted by the decline of future and we are going to continue to work to make sure we are the salmon stocks. I know first-hand how important it is to hear addressing those rebuilding plans. from communities, and I will endeavour to make sure those com‐ munities are heard.

Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Mr. Chair, in the Skeena watershed, as ● (2255) the minister may know, DFO has long practised abundance-based management for sockeye salmon. They set minimum spawning es‐ capements and they also set thresholds at which different fisheries Mr. Gord Johns (Courtenay—Alberni, NDP): Mr. Chair, we are triggered. There is a growing call in the region for DFO to de‐ are aware DFO is revising the shellfish aquaculture act later this velop similar abundance-based management measures for other year. We know there are some good players, but there are some bad species, particularly for chinook salmon. The uncertainty created by players in that sector as well. DFO's relationship with the shellfish climate change means that we need better in-season management aquaculture industry is a stunning example of industry capture tools. where input from science, federal and provincial commissions, and environment advocates has been totally ignored over the past 18 Is the minister aware of calls for this kind of abundance-based years. Practices and certain players in that industry have been al‐ management for other species, especially chinook, and does she lowed to degrade the marine environment. support moving in this direction? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, as I have said a number of times tonight, the steep declines we have seen in wild Pacific salmon are extremely alarming. We are looking at a number of dif‐ The people of Denman and Hornby Islands, and Baynes Sound ferent measures to put in place to make sure that we are addressing where I live, are calling for changes to the conditions of licensing those concerns and that we are building abundance. As I said earli‐ for shellfish aquaculture regulations. They need this to happen. The er, it is not just about conserving. It is about growing. That has to impact of unchecked intensification without proper monitoring or be critical as we move forward. I will continue to work with stake‐ enforcement of environmental impact on aquaculture and vital holders, communities and fishers to make sure we are finding the ecosystems has resulted in continued intensification and prolifera‐ right ways forward with regard to wild Pacific salmon. tion of industrial agriculture, which has been destructive to the ecosystems that sustain the health of our region. They are calling I have learned a great deal about Pacific salmon since taking on for the government to use the guidelines of the aquaculture sustain‐ this role. I know it is a huge part of the cultural identity of British ability council. Will the minister do that? Columbia, and we need to do everything we can to protect it and conserve it. Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Mr. Chair, I will finish my questions with Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and a question about the new Fisheries Act. In many ways, the new the Canadian Coast Guard, Lib.): Mr. Chair, our government is Fisheries Act is a solid step forward, but the government has been committed to upholding the independence of scientific work and slow to operationalize the policies and regulations that are so im‐ ensuring that decisions are made on the best available science. That portant to the objectives set out in the act. is why under this government DFO worked with Canada's chief sci‐ ence adviser to develop and adopt the scientific integrity policies. One important objective, and the minister mentioned this earlier, DFO is a science-based department and high-quality, impartial sci‐ is the rebuilding plans for at-risk salmon populations. These plans ence is integral to DFO's work. 2404 COMMONS DEBATES November 24, 2020

Business of Supply Mr. Gord Johns: Mr. Chair, herring is a vital source of the in that process. We have seen a significant uptake on this program. ecosystem. It is the bedrock. It is the forage fish for our ecosystem We want to ensure we are retrieving these harmful gear from our that wild salmon, cod, halibut, shorebirds and mammals rely on. waters. There is no place for ghost gear in the ocean. We need to We have seen a decline in herring on the west coast and right now ensure we do everything we can to mitigate the problems that it the only open area of the six herring grounds is in the Salish Sea. causes not only for our whales, but also with regard to our ocean We have seen the decline of 129,000 tonnes of biomass just in four sustainability. years to a predicted 58,000 next year. The government said it relies on indigenous and local knowledge, but the first nations have been We have invested $8.3 million in the ghost gear fund and we will asking for it to be curtailed or shut down, and so have local com‐ continue to ensure we address this long-term challenge we have— munities. Will the minister do the right thing and curtail the herring The Chair: The hon. member has 30 seconds left. sector or shut it down until a whole-of-ecosystem management plan is in place? Mr. Gord Johns: Mr. Chair, we are in a wild salmon emergency Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, we agree that Pacific her‐ right now. We are seeing a collapse of wild salmon under the minis‐ ring fulfills a vital role in the ecosystem. Its conservation is always ter's watch. Tonight we have not even heard her commit to more going to be a primary objective. We also recognize indigenous fish‐ funding. As an example, where I live in Clayoquot Sound, 2,300 ing rights and the important economic benefits generated from Pa‐ chum salmon returned to the Tranquil River. Normally, 15,000 to cific herring. We are continuing to consult with first nations, har‐ 35,000 chum return. vesters and other interested stakeholders on this shared objective. We consider their valuable input when we inform our fisheries de‐ Will the minister triple emergency funding to help rebuild those cisions. However, we do base our decisions on science and we will river sheds and help save the wild salmon or will she be the minis‐ continue to do that. ter who will be known for watching the collapse of the wild— Mr. Gord Johns: Mr. Chair, we are glad to see the government The Chair: The hon. minister. and the House unanimously support my Motion No. 151 to tackle Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, our government is abso‐ marine plastics. Part of that motion was to deal with ghost and lutely committed to ensuring we do everything we can to address derelict fishing gear. the decline of wild Pacific salmon. We know there is no silver bul‐ We were glad to see the government come up with $8.6 million, let to this. There are a number of ongoing issues related to things but some of that went to industry. We were glad to see it go to the like climate change and habitat degradation. We have seen the Big Ocean Legacy Foundation and the Emerald Sea Protection Society Bar landslide. There have been a number of challenges with regard as they are good players. However, there are concerns about the to salmon. funding going to the very industry that has created the pollution it‐ self. We are taking every available measure to ensure we protect the stock. We will continue to do that very hard work. I look forward to What we were calling for was a polluter-pay system, which working with my colleague on that. would include better standards for enforcement and monitoring, traceability, banning of toxic materials and of course extended pro‐ The Chair: It being 11 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), ducer responsibility for those who created the plastic pollution. all votes are deemed reported. The committee will rise and I will now leave the chair. Will the minister apply those principles and do it soon? The Deputy Speaker: The House stands adjourned until tomor‐ ● (2300) row at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1). Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, the retrieval of ghost gear is extremely important and a number of stakeholders are involved (The House adjourned at 11:01 p.m.)

CONTENTS

Tuesday, November 24, 2020

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Mr. Lloyd ...... 2291 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2294 Canada Labour Code Mr. Trudel ...... 2294 Mrs. Vignola ...... 2285 Ms. McPherson ...... 2295 Bill C-254. Introduction and first reading ...... 2285 Mr. Kurek ...... 2295 (Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and Mr. Motz ...... 2295 printed) ...... 2285 Ms. Gaudreau ...... 2295 Petitions Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2297 Medical Assistance in Dying Mr. Savard-Tremblay ...... 2297 Mr. Hoback ...... 2298 Mr. Genuis ...... 2285 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2299 Human Rights Ms. McPherson ...... 2299 Mr. Genuis ...... 2285 Mr. Kurek ...... 2299 Human Organ Trafficking Mr. Masse...... 2299 Mr. Genuis ...... 2285 Mr. Anandasangaree ...... 2302 Mr. Kurek ...... 2302 Medical Assistance in Dying Ms. McPherson ...... 2303 Mr. Motz ...... 2285 Ms. May (Saanich—Gulf Islands)...... 2303 Handguns Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2303 Mr. Yurdiga ...... 2286 Mr. Erskine-Smith ...... 2303 Veterans Affairs Mr. Kurek ...... 2305 Mr. Angus ...... 2305 Mr. Yurdiga ...... 2286 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2306 Medical Assistance in Dying Mr. Ehsassi ...... 2306 Mrs. Vecchio...... 2286 Mr. Viersen ...... 2307 Human Rights Ms. McPherson ...... 2307 Mr. Kurek ...... 2286 Mr. Hardie ...... 2308 Mr. Viersen ...... 2308 Sex Selection Mr. Anandasangaree ...... 2310 Mr. Kurek ...... 2286 Ms. Chabot ...... 2310 Medical Assistance in Dying Ms. McPherson ...... 2311 Mrs. McLeod (Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo) ...... 2286 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2311 Mr. Williamson ...... 2286 Mr. Kurek ...... 2311 Humans Rights Mr. Anandasangaree ...... 2311 Mr. Bachrach ...... 2312 Mr. Williamson ...... 2286 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2313 Medical Assistance in Dying Mr. Bachrach ...... 2313 ...... Ms. Harder 2286 Mr. Jowhari ...... 2313 Questions on the Order Paper Mr. Anandasangaree ...... 2315 ...... Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2286 Mr. Cumming 2315 Mr. Trudel ...... 2315 Mr. Cumming ...... 2315 GOVERNMENT ORDERS Mr. Anandasangaree ...... 2317 Mr. Genuis ...... 2317 Digital Charter Implementation Act, 2020 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2317 Mr. Bains ...... 2287 Bill C-11. Second reading ...... 2287 Mr. Lloyd ...... 2290 STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS Mr. Savard-Tremblay ...... 2290 Uighur Muslims in China Mr. Angus ...... 2290 Ms. Ratansi ...... 2317 Mr. Anandasangaree ...... 2290 Ms. Finley ...... 2291 Youth Leadership Ms. Chabot ...... 2291 Mr. Longfield ...... 2318 Edward Humeniuk Mr. Trudeau...... 2323 Mr. Yurdiga ...... 2318 Mr. Singh ...... 2323 Mr. Trudeau...... 2323 Sudbury Mr. Lefebvre ...... 2318 Foreign Affairs Ms. Bergen ...... 2323 Twelve Days of Action to End Violence Against Women Mr. Champagne...... 2323 Ms. Larouche ...... 2318 Ms. Bergen ...... 2323 Oil and Gas Industry Mr. Champagne...... 2324 Ms. Harder...... 2318 Ms. Bergen ...... 2324 Iran Mr. Champagne...... 2324 Mr. Ehsassi ...... 2319 Health Airline Industry Ms. Rempel Garner ...... 2324 Ms. Hajdu...... 2324 Mr. Samson ...... 2319 Ms. Rempel Garner ...... 2324 Global Nexus for Pandemics Ms. Hajdu...... 2324 Mr. Sweet ...... 2319 Ms. Rempel Garner ...... 2324 Max Gros-Louis Ms. Hajdu...... 2324 Mr. Lightbound ...... 2319 Official Languages Israel Mr. Beaulieu ...... 2324 Mr. Kent ...... 2320 Ms. Joly...... 2324 Mr. Beaulieu ...... 2325 Lobster Fishery Ms. Joly...... 2325 Mr. d'Entremont ...... 2320 Mr. Martel ...... 2325 Post-Secondary Education Ms. Joly...... 2325 Ms. McPherson ...... 2320 Mr. Martel ...... 2325 Ms. Joly...... 2325 Intergovernmental Relations Mr. Rayes ...... 2325 Mr. Therrien ...... 2320 Ms. Joly...... 2325 Indigenous Affairs Mr. Rayes ...... 2325 Mrs. McLeod (Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo) ...... 2321 Ms. Joly...... 2325

National Housing Day Indigenous Affairs Ms. Jones ...... 2321 Mr. Bachrach ...... 2326 Mr. Miller ...... 2326 Diabetes Awareness Month Mrs. Lalonde ...... 2321 Air Transportation Mr. Masse...... 2326 Mr. Garneau ...... 2326 ORAL QUESTIONS International Aid Foreign Affairs Mr. Sarai ...... 2326 Mr. O'Toole ...... 2321 Ms. Gould ...... 2326 Mr. Trudeau...... 2321 COVID-19 Emergency Response Mr. O'Toole ...... 2322 Mr. Poilievre ...... 2326 Mr. Trudeau...... 2322 Mr. Fraser ...... 2327 Health Mr. Poilievre ...... 2327 Mr. O'Toole ...... 2322 Mr. Fraser ...... 2327 Mr. Trudeau...... 2322 Mr. Poilievre ...... 2327 Mr. O'Toole ...... 2322 Mr. Fraser ...... 2327 Mr. Trudeau...... 2322 Finance Mr. O'Toole ...... 2322 Mr. Poilievre ...... 2327 Mr. Trudeau...... 2322 Mr. Fraser ...... 2327 Mr. Blanchet ...... 2322 Mr. Trudeau...... 2322 Agriculture and Agri-Food Mr. Blanchet ...... 2323 Mr. Perron ...... 2328 Mr. Trudeau...... 2323 Ms. Bibeau...... 2328 Mr. Singh ...... 2323 Mr. Perron ...... 2328 Ms. Bibeau...... 2328 Mr. Johns ...... 2336

Mr. Vis ...... 2328 Mr. Manly ...... 2336

Ms. Bibeau...... 2328 Mr. Amos ...... 2336

Mr. Généreux ...... 2328 Ms. Michaud...... 2338

Ms. Bibeau...... 2328 Mr. Boulerice ...... 2338 ...... Mr. Gourde 2328 Mr. Longfield ...... 2338 Ms. Bibeau...... 2328 Mr. Godin ...... 2339 Health Ms. Collins ...... 2340 Mr. Kelloway ...... 2329 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2340 Ms. Hajdu...... 2329 Ms. Michaud...... 2340

Ms. Harder...... 2341 Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Ms. Mathyssen...... 2342 Ms. Dancho ...... 2329 Ms. Pauzé ...... 2342 Mr. Mendicino ...... 2329 Ms. Bendayan ...... 2343 Telecommunications Mr. Shipley ...... 2329 Business of the House Ms. Monsef ...... 2329 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2343 Motion ...... 2343 Persons with Disabilities (Motion agreed to)...... 2343 Mr. Genuis ...... 2329 Mr. Lametti ...... 2329 Digital Charter Implementation Act, 2020 Bill C-11. Second reading ...... 2343 The Environment Ms. Bendayan ...... 2343 Ms. Dhillon ...... 2330 Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe ...... 2345 Mr. Lefebvre ...... 2330 Mr. Chiu ...... 2345 Veterans Affairs Ms. Collins ...... 2345 Ms. Blaney (North Island—Powell River) ...... 2330 Mr. MacAulay ...... 2330 Privilege

International Trade Order Paper Question No. 97 Mr. Manly ...... 2330 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2345 Ms. Ng ...... 2330 Digital Charter Implementation Act, 2020 Points of Order Bill C-11. Second reading ...... 2346 Mr. Morrissey...... 2346 Statements by Members Mrs. Charbonneau ...... 2348 Mrs. DeBellefeuille...... 2330 Ms. Mathyssen...... 2348 Post-Secondary Education Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2348 Ms. McPherson ...... 2331 Mr. Lemire...... 2348 Motion ...... 2331 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2350 (Motion agree to) ...... 2331 Mr. Johns ...... 2350

Points of Order Mr. Chiu ...... 2351 Oral Questions Mr. Boudrias ...... 2351 Mr. Rayes ...... 2331 Mr. Deltell ...... 2331 PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS

Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development GOVERNMENT ORDERS Act

Mr. Plamondon ...... 2352 Digital Charter Implementation Act, 2020 Bill C-216. Second reading...... 2352 Bill C-11. Second reading ...... 2332 Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2354 Mr. McLean...... 2332 ...... Mr. Lamoureux ...... 2333 Mr. Généreux 2354 Mr. Lemire...... 2334 Mr. Blaikie...... 2355 Mr. Johns ...... 2334 Mr. Blois ...... 2355 Mr. Ehsassi ...... 2334 Mr. Berthold ...... 2356 Mr. Sorbara ...... 2334 Mr. Blaikie...... 2358 Mr. Desilets ...... 2335 Mr. Perron ...... 2359 ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS Mr. Fraser ...... 2380 Mr. Williamson ...... 2383 Official Languages Mrs. Jordan ...... 2383 Mr. Berthold ...... 2360 Mr. Fast ...... 2384 Mrs. Brière...... 2360 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2384 The Environment Mr. Kelloway ...... 2385 Mr. Redekopp...... 2361 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2386 Mr. Bittle ...... 2362 Mr. Mazier ...... 2387 COVID-19 Emergency Response Mrs. Jordan ...... 2387 Mr. Johns ...... 2362 Mr. Epp ...... 2388 Mr. Fraser ...... 2363 Mr. Zimmer ...... 2389

Mrs. Jordan ...... 2389

Mr. Morrissey...... 2390 GOVERNMENT ORDERS Mrs. Jordan ...... 2390

Business of Supply Mr. Robillard ...... 2391 Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2391 (Consideration in committee of the whole of all votes Mrs. Gill ...... 2392 under Fisheries and Oceans in the main estimates, Mr. Mr. Battiste ...... 2395 Bruce Stanton in the chair) ...... 2364 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2396 Mr. O'Toole ...... 2364 Mr. Calkins ...... 2397 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2365 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2397 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2367 Mr. d'Entremont ...... 2398 Mr. Beech ...... 2369 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2398 Mrs. Gill ...... 2370 Mr. Sorbara ...... 2399 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2371 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2400 Mr. Johns ...... 2373 Ms. May (Saanich—Gulf Islands)...... 2401 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2373 ...... Mr. Beech ...... 2375 Mr. Bachrach 2402 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2377 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2402 Mr. Bragdon ...... 2378 Mr. Johns ...... 2403 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2378 Mrs. Jordan ...... 2403 Mr. Arnold ...... 2379 All Department of Fisheries and Oceans votes reported .. 2404

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