INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES

ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

FOLKLIFE FESTIVAL

MULE SKINNER

INTERVIEW WITH: TRAVIS KUYKENDAL

INTERVIEWER : ESTHER MACMILLAN

DATE: August 6 , 1983

PLACE: Oral History Office, ITC

TK : It ' s really pronounced K I K E N D A L, but everybody

says K E R K E N D A L.

EM: That's a German name, isn't it?

TK: Holland Dutch, I believe. Anyway it's Dutch. Last time

I went to get a haircut, it cost me 4 bits a corner. (laughter)

EM: You ' re a square head! (laughter)

Mr . Kuykendal is listed in the program this year as " Mu l e

Skinn er." And I have a great curiosity about mule skinner;

what it means and all kinds of things about mules because

they were so important in the early days of Texas.

TK: That ' s right. That ' s the reason we have organized our­

selves and called ourselves The Frontiersmen of Uval de, Texas , and to go along with frontiersmen, we figured pack mules

would be the most appropriate thing that we could bring to help to show what we meant b y fronti ers. And so bringin' the

pack mules--and then we have, of course, as old as I am, I

know quite a b i t about pack mules anyway. KUYKEN DAL 2

EM: Sure you do . TK: Years ago, they used to have as many as 20 , 30 or more one right behind the other and they called them mule trains .

They were packed. That was the way we moved all the supplies that they had regardless of what it was. Whether it was guns , ammunition, gun powder or whether it was horseshoes or clothes or food or whatever, they were moved on mule back .

They didn't have no--finally they began to build wagons .

Finally they moved freight trains in, something like that. But at that time , that was the only way they had to do that.

During that time, the man that handled the mul es , they called him mule skinner because mules are a little hard­ headed like these square-headed Dutchmen; they're hard­ headed. My mules that come in , they ' re all about half Irish.

Because they're hard-headed I give ' em all Irish names. EM: You named them!

TK: Yes. But the mule skinner, he got the name by--he had a whip or a big, long strap of leather, line , and he could throw

that line that they called it, throwin' a line , and pop 3 h e could pop the hair off those mule s. That was skinnin' a

mule.

EM: That ' s where the t e rm came from!

TK: That ' s where it came from. That's where the t erm mule

skinner come from.

EM: I didn't know that.

TK: So after that, you hire d some body to pack your mules, whatever, you hired a mule skinner. That's where the name KUYKENDAL 3

TK: originated from . EM: Isn ' t that interesting. I always wondered what that meant. I hoped it didn ' t mean taking the skin off of a mule .

TK : The way t h ey jerked the line , t hey could almost take the hair off the mu l e. I couldn 't do it; I don' t know how .

Throwing that way and jerki ng back. You coul d see a few hairs fly off and they called it skinnin ' the mule .

EM : Normally , what was in a mule trai n? How many mu l es?

TK : Well , lon g t i me ago, t he way I've studied it, normally it was about 20 mules .

EM : That many.

TK: Yeah . I t hink that ' s where the 20 Mule Team [Borax a~ come from . Originally, I think , that they used about 20 mules in a mule trai n . However, they wasn ' t hitched up to a wagon way back then . One right behind the other, each one of ' em.

And most of t h e time, they didn ' t have to put a line on those mules at all. They had one mule in the lead with a bell on and all of those other would follow him. They taught 'em to follow. So here they ' d come, be one mu l e right behind the other. And t h ey called it a mule train.

EM: Where is the mule skinner? He's at the back?

TK : Well , he might be at the back; he might be at the front.

Generall y t here was always two men. One went towards the l ead and he led t he bell mare, they called it. Lot of times it woul d be a n old mare with a bell on. And all these mu l es just

followed along behind, just like they were---

EM: An old mare. A mare is not a mule? KUYKENDAL 4

TK: No, not necessarily . However, sometimes it would be a mule but a lot of times it would be an old bell mare.

EM: Really?

TK: Yeah. Female horse.

EM: For instance , you have a mule leading this pack train-- what do y ou call a bunch of mules? A herd? A flock?

TK : You call 'em a team of mules mostly. Then you can have a

2-up team; 4-up team; 6-up team.

EM: 2-up? TK : Yeah. As many as you want but if you have 4 mules, you

call it 4- up. EM: Wonder why they call it "up?"

TK: Well, it's another one of those old terms that those

people started a long time ago that nobody knows about. Just

like the pack on the mule back , originally they didn't have

packsaddles. Now we have packsaddles which makes it a lot

easier to pack the mule . I don 't know when the packsaddle was

invented. It was a long time ago. But the original mule

skinner didn't have packsaddles. They just put the pack on

there and they 'd take rope and when they got through tyin' it~­

they didn 't say tyin' it, they'd say, "We throwed a diamond

hitch on it." The diamond hitch, the way they had that hitched,

it was a diamond up here on top. It helped the cargo from

moving in any direction. It h e ld it on the mule 's back. Called it a diamond hitch. And they said, we throwed a dia­

mond hitch on--well, load 'em up, throw a diamond hitch on

each one of 'em so we won't lose a load .

EM: You don't know where the 2-up, the 2-up 1 and the 4-up KUYKENDAL 5

EM: came from? TK: Well now, that's when you started working them. Puttin' t he harness on ' em and workin ' em . If it was 2 mu les , it was a t eam of mules. If it was 4 mules, it was still a team, but it was a 4-up team. And if it was 6 mu l es , a 6-up team. Or

8 mu les, i t was a 8-up team. I don't know where the up started from. Just probabl y slang l a nguage , I guess.

EM: Part of the mule vocabulary. You have a whole bunch of mules together, does one stand o ut a s a l eader? How d o you pick leaders?

TK: Yes ma 'am. Most of the time, it creates leadership itself.

The one that can whip a ll the rest of ' em is the leader .

EM: Oh?

TK: In horses , the same way . You have a big bunch of ho rses

out the re and there'll be one horse, mo st of the time it' s a mare , fema l e . She can just whip all the rest of ' em. And

they 'll f ollow her . She c an just take o f f on the run and

they 'll all f ollow her.

EM : But she--the mule h as to prove i t. How do they- -do they

actu a lly figh t?

TK : No, not actual ly . I f one gets a little rambunctious in

the herd, gettin ' o ff , well this l ead just takes it on itself

to be a leader. All of a sudden t hey'll j ust go and whip the

heck out of ' em . Just back ' em into a corner of the pen , if

they ' re in a pen.

EM: In oth er words , they discipline ' em , and the same thing

h appen s with mules so t hat particular mule is designated the

l ead mule. KUYKENDAL 6

TK: Yes ma 'am. And years ago, that leader, they put a b ell on him. All you had to find was the leader, the bell animal, and take it in and all the rest of 'em would follow the leader; come on in, if they were out in the pasture.

EM: Normally, if things were O. K. , you'd have a man in the front and a man in the back.

TK : Yes ma 'am. Most all the time. One reason, I guess , years ago they rode shotgun. They carried guns because peo- ple would try to staal their cargo. It was very bad. Probabl y in bad country, there was more than two men . There'd be maybe several.

EM: Were the men that were accompanying the mu l e train on horses?

TK: Yes ma'am.

EM: They weren 't walking?

TK : They were on horseback.

EM: Have I heard some where or other, or read, that mu les a nd horses don 't like each other?

TK: No ma 'am. Mostly the ranch man, the owner, separates

' em . But they ' ll run together.

EM : They will?

TK: Yes ma'am.

EM: The mules aren't going to get obstreperous because there are horses front and back?

TK: Not necessarily, no.

EM : Tell me about the packing. I have been told that certain men were expert in packing mules. How do you get that exper­

t ise? KUYKENDAL 7

TK: Just from experience, I guess. Just start in and some­ one that was real good a t packin' and tyin' this diamond hitch, they called it, why he 'd take on helpers and if they liked to, naturally they're going to take a lot of interest in it.

It was a prof ession like nowdays, you send 'em to college.

In that day and time you just learned from someone else.

EM: I suppose the thing was to get as much on a mule as the mule could carry and yet not be---

TK: Yeah. A mule could carry just practically his own weight.

EM: He can?

TK: Yes ma'am.

EM: Without being hurt?

TK: Yes , ma'am. Of course that was a little bit heavy .

They didn 't generally pack em--but they'd look at a mule and

they ' d guess, well that mule weighs 700 pounds . They'd try

to pack about half their weight .

EM: Is that so !

TK : So that mule would carry 350 p ounds. And these o ld expert

packers they were experts at that, too. They could look at a

mule and tell you within a few pounds how much he weighed. So

they knew how much weight to put on there . So that was another

thing , the packer was-- and even in our military service , you

know we had a pack train in the army. Had what we called a

pack train. That ' s how they moved their supplies out r ight

along with a regiment of soldiers. Even their stoves, they

apparently packed on top of the mule. KUYKENDAL 8

EM: Poor mule! TK: They f i gured that mule was big enough to carry that stove

and they'd put the stove up there a n d put a diamond hitch on

it and that was all t here was to it. Away he went with it.

EM: I f you were a mule , you ' d want to be darn sure that

burden on your back wasn't going to slip.

TK: Yes, that's right. Th at was the purpose of the d iamond

hitch . The diamond hitch, if the load got loose , why they ' d

go back and you'd just p ull this one rope, just keep pullin '

it, takin' up the slack on it. It pulled a ltogether and i t

formed a web more or l e ss. It just webbed it ont o the animal ' s

back .

EM : I ' m glad I wasn't a mule! When they were going, for in­

stance, on a long haul , say delivering ammunition to a fort

out in West Texas , was there a limit on how many hours that

pack train could travel?

TK : No ma ' am, I don ' t think there ever was a limit. They

just had to use their own judgement in t h at day and time.

They depended on the weather, how many miles they could go

weather- wise. If the weather was too hot, they only traveled

so many hours or they ' d travel so many hours in the morning

a nd lay up through the heat of the day and that evenin' , they ' d

go back out and travel some more . They averaged around 6, 7

miles an hour, something like that.

EM: They did?

TK: Yes ma ' am.

EM : That much! Those little creatures must have been trotting. KUYKENDAL 9

TK: Yeah. A slow jaunt. I t was kind of natural for t hem to be in a s low jog. They could take a pretty big load .

EM: Were the mules awfully dependent on water , l ike all the othe r animals? TK: They could go a little better farther, longesthan a horse . Not like a camel, of c ourse. They could go a little bit longer . They're a tougher animal than a horse. I think they have even found in late r years, they 've cross-bred cattle for probabl y a little bit more d urabl e, a l ittle bit more prosperous cattle or thrifty cattle , I' d say, than the regis­ t ered cattle are. If they are cross-bred--that way wi t h a mu l e, a cross-bred animal, so he h as a l ittl e bit more stamina.

EM: We read in Texas about the cattle going up the trail-­ the cattle drives up to Abilene a nd over to Kansas. Were there pack trains along with those cat tle drives?

TK: There were before they got the wagons 1 yes ma'am, They

carried their supplies.

EM: There were? TK: That ' s when, I guess, when they began to have their ups

and 4-ups depending on--they might leave out here in flat

country, drivin' a 2-up team , team of mules. When they began

to get in rough country, they had to have some more mu l es.

So finally , we ll, they had to have 4-ups, 6-ups .

And then the freighters , the freight wagon people, well, naturally i t would depen d on how much load they were going to

h aul --that ' s h ow many mules they hooked up to the wagon.

That ' s wh en they began to make the 2-ups, 4-ups, 8-ups . KUYKENDAL 10

EM: The mule was a very i mportant part of the development of Texas, right?

TK: It was . It was very important.

EM: You read about the horses and cows all the time but the little mule was a prett y vital animal, wasn 't he?

TK: It's kind of l ike we talk a bout everything but the farmer .

But the farmer is really the most important person that's ever been in Texas or any other part of the world. Yet he gets less credit. The mu l e was his main animal. Long time ago, they had oxen but oxen were slow. With the mule , they could get out; they coul d plough; they could cultivate much faster with the mule becau se they were a littl e quicker moving ani- mal .

EM: Suppose you were short of money and you needed a creature to plough or carry something , would it b e cheaper to buy a mu l e or an ox?

TK: I don ' t know . I imagine it would have been cheaper to buy an ox ; because cattle weren ' t worth hardly any thing. But a we ll-traine d mule always brought a pretty good price.

EM: Now suppose you ' d been on the trail all day a nd you ' re

pulling in for the night. They unload the mules don't they? I They don ' t leave the packs on the mules overnight?

TK: No ma ' am. They unload ' em and let ' em rest. Let ' em

lay down , roll and get some exercise-- loosen their back up

I guess you 'd call it. They don ' t lay down to sleep, neces-

sarily but they lay down to roll and loosen up their muscles

and everything. KUYKENDAL 11

EM: Are t hey grazers?

TK: Yes ma 'am, they are.

EM: Whe n you've got a mule team going a long, long way--mule train--do they have to carry suppl ementary f ood or do they have to depend on t h e grass?

TK: They tried to get on the grass back in t hat day and time .

Years ago , more than a nything, there'd be a scout go ahead and find a place where they ' d make it to that particular place that night . Then they could tur n all the animals loose, put the bell on this bell animal , and either stake it or watch i t, kind of herd it through t he n ight. So t h e next morning they 'd get this bell mu l e , bell mare , whatever it was and h ere they come , all the rest of 'em, come following.

They 'd catch ' em.

EM : So they never lost any?

TK : That way they coul d not l ose any time.

EM : Goodness , that mule ' s important! When we were talking up t here in front of y our booth-- tell a little b it about the contribution you've made t o the Fol klife Festival. Tell about when you started, at the very beginning.

TK: We ll, we started t h e f irst Folklife Festival t hat was held here in San Antonio.

EM : Twelve years ago.

TK : Twelve years ago. There was a man came--O.T. Baker-­ called this man, they were friends. We lived at Pearsall at

that time. And they were old friends . He called this frie nd

and he said , " I wish you ' d try to find us a t eam to come to KUYKENDAL 12

TK : t he Festival." So the man came to me and told me - -we h ad just had the centennial celebration in Pearsall and I was parade chairma n. We had the biggest parade . We had more western gear i n t hat parade, I guess , than they ' ve had in years and years. We never had anything mi litaryi we got after i t t oo late. Al l the mi l itary were busyi they h ad already set up to go somewhere else. So we had to build it from the c ount ry . We had some l adies even r ode side saddl e . And we had , I forget , how many wagons with mu les and horses and buggies. We had a wonderful parade .

So Dolph Briscoe- -that was before he run for governor-­ he was our parade mar shal l. He rode a horse. Most every­ thing we had i n that parade was more or l ess western.

So this man came to me and said, " I know you know all about where all these wagons and everything are. Couldn't you find a wagon for the Fol klife Festival ? "

Well , I had no idea where the Folklife Festival was .

Ri gh t out of the clear. "Well, we 'll see what we can find."

He suggested- -there was an old black man had some o l d horses .

He says, "You coul d get that man's horses and wagon." I said,

"No , that wou ld be a disgrace. " And I remembered a little

t eam of gray mules that were j ust real nice and gentle. He

didn ' t have three . So I went and inquired from another ranch man who had borrowed ' em to use in the parade. And he t old me

who they belonged to and he said-- and I said, "But I don't

know that man." And he sai d, "Yes , you do . He knows who you

are . If you don ' t know each other you know something about KUYKENDAL 13

TK: each oth er . He ' d loa n you those mules, I'm s ure."

So I drove to Encinal , Texas and Mr . J . B. Parker and told him what I was looking for a n d he said , " I ' ve got the mules. "

We t alked awhile and h e sai d , "Yeah, I ' ll loan ' em to you.

You can take ' em and use ' em . That will be f i ne . I k now all your family. I know a ll the Kuykendals over the country . I know who y ou are and what you are. As long a s you ' re going to take care of the mules , I 'll let you have ' e m. "

That was about a month before they were having the first

Festival . So whe n it got time, I went down there and picked the mules up and we brought 'em to San An tonio Fol k l i fe

Festival . And there was no one e l se had a team of mules .

Ther e was a team of big old oxe n f rom over East Texas .

EM: I remember that.

TK : So my wife and me brought those two mu l e s up h ere . We stayed with ' em and we run , drove ' ern with t hat cane mill .

EM : Oh you did! Sure.

TK : Sh e helped me. She drove part time . I d rove p art time .

We made that Festival. Before the next Festival, Yancy

Barnhart and me- - Yancy had told me t o buy if I could f i nd any mu l es or horses , h e wanted to buy ' em. So I found a pai r of white mules in Encinal, Texas and I bought ' ern for Yancy

Barnhart. And those mu les , then, we used ' ern continuously up until on e of ' em d i ed here two, three years ago. And then the other one got crippled here three or four years ago . We---

So a very dear friend of mine from Pearsall , Texas,

Johnny Beal, called me and I found another mule . It was a KUYKENDAL 14

TK: white mu le. So we brought it to the Fest ival and they used it .

EM: Still in the cane mill?

TK: Yeah . So then the next year, their mule was well again, so we used him. Old Jack. And they used him. Last year they used him but thi s year he ' s played out on ' em. Don ' t know whether he's sick or crippled or what. So Johnny called me again. He said , "Compadre , we need another mule . ..

EM: You were the mule guy!

TK : 11 We need an extra mule. 11 "I ' l l find one somewhere . I 'll try . " And he said , "We l l , I' 11 be tryi ng ." He found a mule that was so wild, so unruly , that we never could get him

tamed down , so he cal led me again t he other day and I said,

I "Il l bring Old Mike." He ' s not a mu l e. He ' s a big old donkey

that I own .

EM: What' s the difference between a mule and a donkey?

TK: A mule is half donkey and hal f horse . A donkey is just

a donkey .

EM : He's a species by himself. I never could get that

straight.

TK : To get a mule, you have to cross a horse and a donkey .

Now some people say it has to be a male donkey and a female

horse. But it doesn ' t have to necessarily be. It can b e the

other way.

EM: Oh it can?

TK: Yes ma'am. But most of the time, it is a male donkey and

a femal horse~-the biggest part of the mules. But occasionally KUYKENDAL 15

TK: you 'll have some that ' s been reversed. EM: You have a f ondness for mules, don't you?

TK: Yes. I have a fondness for animals. Horses or mules .

I raise a few quarter horses. I have a few registered quarter horses. Very few. I have about four mares , registered mares .

And I have a registered stud horse.

Have you been at The Institute all this time?

EM: I've been here a long time. I was i n the very first

Folkl i fe Festival. Right out there in the Mexican Market .

I've been taping interviews at the Festival for four years .

TK: You know the first one we had, we went out what they called the tunnel and there was where we had the cane mill set up. Do you r emember that?

EM: No.

TK: Had the cane mill set up. Go out what they called the tunnel on the east side and there we had set up out there and that's where we had those mules.

EM: What are you doing with the mules this year?

TK: We have pack mules now.

EM: You 've got pack mules?

TK: Yes ma'am.

EM: And you're talking to people about what you're telling me.

TK: Yes. We tell them before we had a l l these modern convey ­

ances, like the 18 wheelers and cargo planes and trains and

big things to move cargo around with , we used to have mules .

Our ancestors used mules . KUYKENDAL 16

EM: Wh at date do you p ut on this? On the mule train? 1880 and something?

TK : I t was probably earlier than that when they started the mule t rain s . They still use 'em in Mexico . In the mines, t hey still use the pack trains, the mu l es . They 'll h ave ten or fifteen mules in a pack train , loaded with ore , coming over the mines over there. They keep some of those mules in there so long that when they come out into the sun , they can't see.

EM: I know. I ' ve read that. They ' re not using mules much any more, are they?

TK: No ma 'am.

EM : On ranches?

TK : No. Well, mu l es are gettin ' popular again. Now they 're

even havin ' mule races. In Del Rio they have mule races all

year around. Three or four years ago , I don' t remember what

i t was--I bel ieve it was the first mule races they had in Del

Rio were Denver Pyle , you know, in the movie he has a mu l e he

calls Old Number 7 . Denver Pyl e , I don't remember the name of

the show now, but anyway , he was i n a show. It was a series

on t elevision, and he ' s an old man. The old man, the uncle

on the Dukes of Hazzard, that ' s Denver Pyle.

EM : All that h a ir!

TK : Yeah. Well, we knew Denver Pyle. We got to know him

when they made the picture of The Alamo a t Bracke~ille .

EM: Sure.

TK : See, my wife worked in tha t movie. My youngest son was

assistant to the casting director in that movie. So when h e KUYKENDAL 17

TK: came in and come through Uvalde to go promotin' it, he come here to help promote those mu l e races at Del Ri o. He stopped and we visited with him awhile . And he gave us a card to take to the boy. But anyway, he wrote something on the card, said, "Give this to Travis."

But that was the first year they had the mule races so now it's an annual thing in Del Rio. They have mule races every year. I cain't tell you the date but I think it's along about in April .

EM: Tell me , you ' re standing up there with your lovely smile and friendly attitude, what do the people ask you?

TK: Most of the time, "What is that? Is that a horse?

(laughter) Is that a camel?" We had the pack saddle on the mule and it has posts at each e nd of the saddle and a camel

is kind of shaped like that. So he walked up there and said ,

"Is that a camel?"

EM: I noticed as I walked by, that one of the littl e mules has a Mexican wooden saddle on him. Is that a wooden sad dle?

TK: Yes. That's a pack saddle.

EM: That's a pack saddle? Those saddles look so uncomfort­

able.

TK: Well, you don't ride those saddles. It's to help tie the

cargo to that.

EM: It's not for anybody to ride?

TK : No , that's not to ride.

EM: I've seen people riding horses in Mexico on those wooden

saddles and they look so uncomfortable, mostly for the horse! KUYKENDAL 18

TK: It's made a little bit different from them.

EM: Oh, this is a saddle just for the pack .

TK: Yes.

EM: That's interesting. Did they get the idea from Mexico?

TK : I woul dn 't be surprised because the Mexican people are a very inventive people . They ' re people who could--in fact, one of 'em told my son one time, he said , "Why we can get r i ch off of what you Gringos throw away ."

EM: It ' s true.

TK: But anyway, that saddle is made specially because you have something to hook your rope on to tie the cargo.

EM: That's what that bar thing is.

TK: Helps to hold the pack more centrally located.

EM: Is there something under tha t so the mule ' s back is pro­

tected?

TK: Oh yes ma'am. We have a good saddle pad under.

EM: That would be so uncomfortable.

TK: We're very particular to put a saddle pad under so it won 't hurt, won't injure.

EM: Do you find that the kids are interested in this old­

time camp? I would think so.

TK: They love those animals . They want to get in there with

' em; they want to hug ' em, kiss 'em. And they do . They ' ll

get up there and if you don ' t watch ' em, they get over there

close to ' em; they 'll go up and kiss 'em anywhere on the face

that they can.

EM: Do the mules stand for it? KUYKENDAL 19

TK: Yes ma'am. They get aggravated before the day ' s over. You have to watch ' em because we ' re afraid the mule might snap at 'em.

EM: They're getting hot and tired.

TK : Yeah. They ' re tired, aggravated.

EM: Do they have to stand like tnat all day long? And all night? TK: At night we t ake the pack and everything off of them.

EM: Are they l eft there in the pens at night?

TK: Yes ma'am.

EM: Somebody to watch 'em?

TK: The police, you know, they come. They do a ll right.

EM: It's been cooling off at night. You worry about animals when it's so hot.

TK: If we feed ' em, they eat good. Course, they're gettin '

sort of disgusted with the feed now because they 're used to bein' turned loose. Where I come from, we turn ' em loose.

Let 'em get out and roll. We don 't have that much room.

And they'll get aggravated and fight at each other so we a re

afraid they might get injured so we keep ' em tied one over here and one over here.

EM: You obviously have put so much into the Folklife Festival

all these years, you think it worth while, don 't you? You

think it's a good experience for people?

TK: I think it's the greatest show i n the world.

EM: The nice thing, it seems to me, is there are so many children . KUYKENDAL 20

TK : Yes , t hat' s right.

EM: So many little kids taking thi s all i n . Maybe they ' re not saying anythin g but they ' re going to remember a lot of things they wouldn ' t have otherwise .

TK : One year we brought our grandson with us . He ' s now six­ teen years o ld and he still talks about it, what a good time he h a d ; what he seen. He really e njoyed t o drive that mu l e around , that cane deal , and hel pin ' wit h the mule . All kids love an imals.

EM: They seem to , don ' t they?

TK: Some k i nd of an animal. I think t hat every kid shoul d have some kin d of an animal.

EM : So do I .

TK : A cat or a dog or a pig or something. When we l ived in

Del Rio , I was with the sheriff ' s office, years ago wh en our boys were little . People ' d come down there and say , "Wh at have your kids got up there, a kind of a menagerie?" They ' d even have a javelina hog up there. They ' d have a bob cat; have a donkey; and they ' d have a goat in the yard, playin ' with i t all the time . And our yard was a sort of a public place . Since we had two boys, there we re no girls, all the the boys in the country gathered at our house . Our house has been a boy ' s horne always.

EM : That ' s wonde rful. I can tell you ' re nice parents .

TK : We had two boys. We don ' t get to see our grandchildren very much. Both of our boys are Federal Drug Enforcement agents. One of ' ern is stationed in Guadalajara, Jalisco, KUYKENDAL 21

TK: Mexico and the other one is now in Tucson, Arizona. The one in Tucson spent six years in Monterrey, Mexico. Then he went to Washington D. C. and now he's in Arizona.

The other boy spent about six and a half years i n South

America and t hen spent about a year and a half in Houston and now he's in Guadalajara, Jalisco.

EM: That's a nice place to be.

TK: Yeah, but the kind of jobs they have is dangerous . Hav­ ing been a pol iceman myself, I know what's what. What t hey have to go through. EM: Do you think of anything else we need on this tape about mule skinners for future researchers?

TK : No, not that I can think of.

EM : You 're sweet to come . I've learned a lot.

TK: I want to quit, but I don ' t want to quit. I want some- body to carry on and I want to be here every time, but the work's gettin' a little rough.

EM: You don't want to work so hard. I think you 've earned

a vacation.

TK: I 'm quite a bit older than most people think I am.

EM: You don't look old. Haven't you got somebody coming up behind you that can do the work?

TK: So far I haven 't but I'm tryin'. I want to keep on until I can get someone.

EM: Have you got anybody in Uvalde that's interested in do­ ing this?

TK: Well, t hey don't want to work. And it is hard work. You KUYKENDAL 22

TK : have fun but you s till have--it's hard work and it's hot.

The time the year it happens , it' s rough .

EM : It really is . But it's such a good thing . It's so worthwhile for the kids, particularly.

TK : I think it's great and I'm going to keep on trying to promote everything I can. If I can p r omote something else besides this pack mule from Uvalde, I'm going to promote it.

We had dropped out for two years and we came up v isiting . Run onto Claudia Ball. She had her feet in a tub of ice

water . I think it was the l ast day of the Festival and she was just worn out ; her feet were swelled. She was, si ttin'

with her feet in a tub of ice water. We hugged and beat on

each other and greeted and so she said, "Well, Travis, why

don't you try to build something in Uvalde for here ? We've

never had any representation from Uval de . Uvalde has a lot

to offer. "

EM : Sure does . TK : It does have a lot to offer. The home of John Garner ; home of Dolph Briscoe. Dolph was born and raised in thi s

area. And I think he was one of the greatest governors we ' ve

ever had. And b e side that, we have--Uvalde ' s t he place where

Pat Garre tt, who was a very noted outlaw, lived at one time.

And it was the home of King Fisher who, I guess, was the most

noted outlaw and one of the worst outlaws , I guess , South

Texas ever knew. He was even elected Sheriff of Uvalde one

time and he had about 130 deputies and they wer e a ll outlaws .

Plus the Newton gang. And Joe Newton is one of my group of KUYKENDAL 23

TK: Frontiersmen and he still comes with us. He's 82 years old . They got quite a picture of him this morning in the San

Antonio Light. He comes . He doesn't do a whole lot but he's very active . He's a good storytelleri very p leasant man , very nice. Although he robbed 80 banks and 6 trains, he's a very nice man. (laughter) He's one of our gang . The reason

I wanted to add this in is to show it's not just the people who are working here that thinks this is a wonderful thi ng,

it ' s all of us who are implicated at all. We feel l ike all of us, it's just part of our act here .

EM: Of course, it is . It's a wonderful down-to-earth thing.

TK: That is right.

EM: Done to simple things. And I love to see the kids'

faces.

END OF TAPE I, Side 2.