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Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee Thursday 29 October 2020 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Thursday 29 October 2020 CONTENTS Col. DECISION ON TAKING BUSINESS IN PRIVATE ....................................................................................................... 1 SUBORDINATE LEGISLATION............................................................................................................................... 2 Census (Scotland) Amendment Order 2020 [Draft] ..................................................................................... 2 BBC ANNUAL REPORT AND ACCOUNTS ........................................................................................................... 11 CULTURE, TOURISM, EUROPE AND EXTERNAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE 25th Meeting 2020, Session 5 CONVENER *Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) DEPUTY CONVENER *Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) *Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) *Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) *Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) *Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) *Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Steve Carson (BBC Scotland) Fiona Hyslop (Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Fair Work and Culture) Glyn Isherwood (BBC) Jamie MacQueen (Scottish Government) Pete Whitehouse (National Records of Scotland) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Stephen Herbert LOCATION Virtual Meeting 1 29 OCTOBER 2020 2 Scottish Parliament Subordinate Legislation Culture, Tourism, Europe and Census (Scotland) Amendment Order 2020 External Affairs Committee [Draft] Thursday 29 October 2020 09:01 The Convener: The next item on our agenda is [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:00] evidence on an affirmative instrument. I welcome Fiona Hyslop, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Decision on Taking Business in Fair Work and Culture; Jamie MacQueen, a lawyer Private in the Scottish Government; and Pete Whitehouse, the director of statistical services at National The Convener (Joan McAlpine): Good Records of Scotland. morning. Welcome to the 25th meeting in 2020 of I remind everyone to allow broadcasting the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs colleagues a few seconds to operate the Committee, which is our 15th remote meeting. microphones before asking or answering a The first item on the agenda is a decision on question. Also, I would be grateful if questions and taking agenda item 6, on draft correspondence, in answers were kept as succinct as possible. private. Are we agreed to do so? As no member I invite the cabinet secretary to make a brief objects, we agree to take item 6 in private. opening statement, after which we will move to questions. If any member wishes to ask a question, they should please type R in the chat box. The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Fair Work and Culture (Fiona Hyslop): Good morning. It was back in February that I last appeared before the committee in respect of Scotland’s census. At that appearance, you recommended approval of the draft census order, and National Records of Scotland was making good progress and was on track to deliver a successful census in 2021. I am here today to seek your approval of the amendment census order that will change the date of the census to March 2022. Let me make it clear that the decision to move the date of the census was not taken lightly. We are all aware of major events around the world that have been cancelled or significantly disrupted due to the impact of the coronavirus pandemic. Like many of those events, planning for Scotland’s census has been seriously impacted. You will have heard me say before how important census data is. It is crucial that a high response rate is achieved, which, in turn, produces high-quality outputs for use by data users in the short, medium and long terms. It is for that reason that the decision was made to move the census to 2022. We must ensure that the census produces the high-quality data that is required by data users, and moving the census date provides the best chance of achieving that. No other survey provides the range of information that the census provides. We get only one chance every decade to ask the people of Scotland to complete a census, which makes it all 3 29 OCTOBER 2020 4 the more important that a full census is taken and Fiona Hyslop: Yes. That report was published that it reaches all communities across Scotland. back in 2019, and I have been keen to ensure that there is continuous programme board oversight NRS officials have told you about the different and review of the progress. That is why we have options they considered to preserve the 2021 the ratings—it was important that we had them census date. None of those options provided the previously, and it is important that we have them necessary confidence in relation to securing high now. response rates and achieving a successful census. We must separate out two issues. Clearly, the decision that was taken this year involved the I appreciate that some data users will be completion rates and, therefore, the success rate disappointed at having to wait an additional year of the census in 2021. In relation to the planning for data or will be concerned about Scotland’s for the Scottish census, we were embarking on census being out of sync with the rest of the issues around procurement, particularly with United Kingdom. However, I can offer you and all regard to recruiting and training operators, and we data users and stakeholders the reassurance that were thinking about the provision that would be NRS will continue to work with the other UK required in the summer and autumn in that regard. census offices and data users to ensure that Scotland’s census delivers the high-quality NRS was moving from amber towards a more analyses and outputs that are required. The positive place—I will bring in Pete Whitehouse on change of census date provides the best that, because the governance and the changes in opportunity to do that. the oversight, particularly with regard to the operational side of the census, are obviously the I am grateful to the committee for your careful responsibility of NRS. Nevertheless, as a consideration of the census legislation thus far and Government minister, I spent a great deal of time for your support in ensuring that the census is a on the matter and have had regular updates on success. I formally invite the committee to progress, and I have pressed back on some of the recommend approval of the Census (Scotland) issues that were highlighted in the report that you Amendment Order to the Scottish Parliament. mention, which was from the previous year. The Convener: Thank you, cabinet secretary. I appreciate what you are saying, convener, but As you know, representatives of National Records we believed that NRS would be able to deliver, of Scotland came to the committee to talk about and we pressed back to test whether it really had the delay, and, as you have just said, we all agree to delay the census. However, like other countries, that it is important that we get accurate data from we have taken the view that, increasingly, the the census. wisest and most sensible thing to do is to ensure You said that NRS was on track to deliver the that the participation rate is as high as possible. census before the pandemic struck. However, we Given that we are spending £100 million of know that, ahead of the pandemic, the delivery taxpayers’ money, a 60 per cent return rate would confidence assessment had moved to an amber not represent good value and would not provide grading. When the NRS representatives were the data that we need. before us, I raised the issue of the Office for Pete Whitehouse can talk about the amber Statistics Regulation report from October 2019 rating that was in place in March. that looked at how all the census authorities across the UK were progressing, and I pointed out Pete Whitehouse (National Records of that, of course, it is only Scotland that has delayed Scotland): As Paul Lowe said when NRS officials the census. appeared before the committee a short while ago, the ranking of this complex programme as amber That report suggested that NRS had was not unusual. He spoke about how the Office experienced difficulties. For example, in paragraph for National Statistics was also in that space and 4.5 it said that NRS had told the regulator that it said that that was the normal trajectory of a was facing challenges that included complex programme of this nature. The feeling in “procurement issues, concerns over effective decision the programme board and within our organisation making ... and contingency planning arrangements.” at that point was that we were going to be able to It went on to say that it was putting a new deliver a successful census in March 2021. governance structure in place to deal with those However, that scenario changed when the things, but it said that there remained a delivery pandemic hit. risk for census outputs in Scotland. Our conclusions are that we have made great Did that report give you cause for concern, and progress. Some of the conversations that we have do you believe that, notwithstanding the pandemic, had with the Office for Statistics Regulation have NRS will overcome those issues and get into a taken the form of peer conversations with position in which it can deliver the census in 2022? colleagues to talk through issues and get feedback 5 29 OCTOBER 2020 6 on areas that we need to think about and on which quality data of the census is paramount for us, we need to work. It is a very helpful and supportive which is why we made the recommendation to improvement mechanism rather than something move it back a year.