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Oral History Center University of California The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California The Freedom to Marry Oral History Project Thalia Zepatos Thalia Zepatos on Research and Messaging in Freedom to Marry Interviews conducted by Martin Meeker in 2016 Copyright © 2017 by The Regents of the University of California ii Since 1954 the Oral History Center of the Bancroft Library, formerly the Regional Oral History Office, has been interviewing leading participants in or well-placed witnesses to major events in the development of Northern California, the West, and the nation. Oral History is a method of collecting historical information through tape-recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. The tape recording is transcribed, lightly edited for continuity and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewee. The corrected manuscript is bound with photographs and illustrative materials and placed in The Bancroft Library at the University of California, Berkeley, and in other research collections for scholarly use. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account, offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is reflective, partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ********************************* All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal agreement between The Regents of the University of California and Thalia Zepatos dated September 6, 2016. The manuscript is thereby made available for research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley. Excerpts up to 1000 words from this interview may be quoted for publication without seeking permission as long as the use is non-commercial and properly cited. Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to The Bancroft Library, Head of Public Services, Mail Code 6000, University of California, Berkeley, 94720-6000, and should follow instructions available online at http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/libraries/bancroft-library/rights-and-permissions It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Thalia Zepatos. “Thalia Zepatos on Research and Messaging in Freedom to Marry: The Freedom to Marry Oral History Project” conducted by Martin Meeker in 2016, Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 2017. iii Thalia Zepatos, 2016 Photo courtesy Barbara Gundle iv Thalia Zepatos was the Director of Research and Messaging for Freedom to Marry. Zepatos was born in New York City and raised in Yonkers, New York. Zepatos earned her undergraduate degree from American University in Washington DC while at the same began working as an activist, particularly on behalf of the Equal Rights Amendment. Zepatos continued her political work once moving to Portland, Oregon. While in Oregon, she first became involved in LGBT rights work, especially by joining the campaign opposing Oregon’s Ballot Measure 9 in 1992. She then fought against Ballot Measure 36 in 2004, which, when passed, limited marriage to heterosexual couples. Zepatos moved to California work on the “Let California Ring” public education campaign in advance of the anti-gay Proposition 8, which passed in 2008. She joined Freedom to Marry in 2010 as Director of Research and Messaging. In this interview, Zepatos discusses her many years working on behalf of LGBT rights, in particular the freedom to marry movement. She details the extensive, multi-year effort to conduct research on what American’s thought about marriage in general and why they opposed extending marriage to same-sex couples. Furthermore, she explains how she and her colleagues were able to “crack the code” and develop a new set of messages that resonated with voters and changed their minds to be in favor of marriage rights for same-sex couples. v Table of Contents—Thalia Zepatos Freedom to Marry Project History by Martin Meeker ix Freedom to Marry Oral History Project Interviews xi Interview 1: February 18, 2016 Hour 1 1 Birth in 1955 in New York City to first generation Greek family — Family’s deep involvement with the Greek Orthodox Church — Childhood in multi-ethnic Yonkers — More on church as a connection to Greek community and identity — Father’s work in insurance, role in the Greek community — Mother’s work at Macy’s and later as co-owner of a women’s clothing shop — Graduation from Roosevelt High School in Yonkers in 1973 — Parent’s conservative politics — Interest in international affairs, attending American University in Washington, D.C. — Growing awareness of Vietnam War, feminist issues, South African divestment, and pro-choice movement — Political and activist atmosphere in D.C. in the 1970s — Campaigning for the ERA in Tampa, Florida — Awareness of anti-gay campaigns and Anita Bryant — Door to door campaign in Florida targeting, educating women — Organizing mentor Barry Greever — Saul Alinsky and the difference between a problem and an issue — The appeal of single-issue activism — River Network — Graduation, community activism in Adams Morgan neighborhood in DC — Work with Maryland Action to fight Ohio Electric & Power from flooding Poor Valley in Virginia — Success in Poor Valley case and realization that activism would be life’s work — Decision to move to Portland, Oregon: “...a place where life could actually get better through citizen involvement.” — Work as staff organizer for Oregon National Abortion Rights Action League — House meeting program strategy — Recruiting and grooming more activists and political leaders — Working with other western states to replicate model — 1988 work on Beverly Stein’s campaign, beginning interest in organizing on behalf of LGBT rights — Beverly Stein’s relationship with and support from LGBT community — The anti-gay Oregon Citizens Alliance, presence in a neighborhood church — Activism to fight Ballot Measure 9 in 1992, brought by Oregon Citizens Alliance Hour 2 21 Death threats, meeting with police and FBI, fears of skinhead violence at election night gathering — Educating canvassers to educate voters — Support, debriefing for canvassers — More on training and coaching canvassers to gently educate voters — Criticisms from ACT-UP — Women for Change, published in 1996 — Two years of solo travel in India and Nepal after end of first marriage — Teaching “Long-term Travel for Women” workshop at the Portland YWCA — Writing a solo travel book — Learning from the emotional toll of the No on 9 campaign — Trainings for LGBT candidates with the National Gay and Lesbian vi Task Force — First encounter with marriage for same-sex couples as a political strategy, skepticism that it was too soon — 2001 wedding to husband Mike, reflecting on the heterosexual privilege of marriage — Feminist and LGBT misgivings about the institution of marriage — 2004 loss in Oregon ballot measure, work with NGLTF and move to Los Angeles — The “Let California Ring” campaign, working with Evan Wolfson — NGLTF and starting to generate very early conversations about marriage as a political goal Hour 3 39 Highlights of power summit trainings for canvassers — Challenges of organizing in California, working with Margaret Conway, hiring an advertising firm to help with messaging — Developing the television ads, choosing the “Garden Wedding” ad, appealing emotionally to straight people — Let California Ring coalition structure — Organizational difficulties leading up to the Prop 8 vote, legal distinctions between Let California Ring and the No on 8 campaign — Conflicting interpretations of polling data, learning to gather better data — Deal with Evan Wolfson to launch Freedom to Marry 2.0 from scratch, letting the data inform the message — Devastating passage of Prop 8 in 2008 — The decentralized nature of campaigning in California, the Yes on 8 “Princess ad” — Off message moves and public relations blows — Return to Oregon immediately after the 2008 election — The 10-10-10-20 paper by Matt Coles — Call from Patrick Guerriero to be lead consultant to the National Collaborative — Awareness of the need for a single campaign organization — Choosing Freedom to Marry as the single organization — Evan Wolfson’s efforts to assemble the best possible team Interview 2: February 19, 2016 Hour 1 55 Discussions with Evan Wolfson about joining Freedom to Marry — Starting from scratch on messaging, emphasizing emotional rather than practical aspects of marriage — Conversations with funding partners — The fight for the freedom to marry in Maine in 2009 — Starting with Freedom to Marry in January 2010, immediately starting to gather data — Organizing the Marriage Research Consortium — Distilling two main questions: how to talk proactively about marriage, how to respond to attacks like the “princess ad” — Funding from the Civil Marriage Collaborative — Gaining access to psychological research, beginning to understand the root fears and issues preventing people from supporting the freedom to marry — Lisa Grove and Melissa Chernaik analyze 85 datasets — Teasing out the primary subjects for focus groups: meaning of marriage, values of fairness — Observing focus groups grappling with their values and homophobia — Choosing participants and organizing groups to allow for greatest comfort — The delicate task of exposing homophobia in