Interview number A-0420 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.

Interview

RUSSELL JACKSON "JACK" HAWKE, JR.

December 3, 1996

by Joseph Mosnier

Indexed by Joseph Mosnier

The Southern Oral History Program University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Index on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection Louis Round Wilson Library

Citation of this interview should be asfollows: "Southern Oral History Program, in the Southern Historical Collection Manuscripts Department, Wilson Library, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill"

Copyright © 1997 The University of North Carolina Interviewee: RUSSELL JACKSON ["JACK"] HAWKE, JR.

Interviewer: Joseph Mosnier

Interview Date: Dec. 3, 1996

Location: Legislative Building, Raleigh, NC

Tape No.: 12.3.96-JH.l (cassette 1 of 2) 12.3.96-JH.2 (cassette 2 of 2) (approximate total length 155 minutes)

**NB: This is the second of two sessions with Jack Hawke; see also the first session (covering matters to the 1970s) of March 28,1996, which is included within the SOHP series, "North Carolina Politics Project."

Topic: Across the last thirty years, Jack Hawke has been an insider and, since 1984, a major force in NC Republican Party politics. Born April 3,1941, in New Milford, PA, Hawke attended public schools and later Drew University in New Jersey, where he first became quite active in campus and Young Republican politics. After graduating in 1963, he enrolled at Duke Law School, graduating in 1966 but never taking the bar exam, having become extensively involved in North Carolina Republican politics by that point. In 1966, Hawke, just 25 years old, managed Jim Gardner's upset win over powerful incumbent Congressperson Harold Cooley. Hawke then served for two years as Gardner's top assistant in Washington before returning to NC in 1968 to manage Fred Steele's unsuccessful effort to oust incumbent Congressperson Nick Galifianakis. In 1970 and again in 1972, Hawke ran unsuccessfully for Congress; in 1973, newly elected Republican governor Jim Holshouser named Hawke Deputy Secretary of the NC Dept. of Transportation. From 1974 until 1977, upon appointment by the Nixon Administration, Hawke served as Director of the Coastal Plains Regional Commission. In 1978, legal difficulties ensnared Hawke; he effectively dropped out of the political scene until 1984, when GOP gubernatorial candidate Jim Martin named Hawke manager of what would prove a successful campaign. Thereafter, Hawke became Martin's top political adviser and a key insider inthe administration. In 1987, Hawke was elected Chair of the NC GOP, a position he held until 1995, during which time the NC GOP achieved a stunning climb to power in the NC General Assembly, culminating in the GOP's Nov.1994 NC House landslide. Hawke is today self-employed as a political consultant. Substantively, the interview was organized around several major themes: the complex, shifting relationship between the NC GOP and the Congressional Club; his ties to Jim Martin, role in the Martin campaign in 1984, and service in the Martin administration; his hopes to occupy an important cabinet-level role in the Martin administration, and how and why these hopes were not realized; details Tape Index, Jack Hawke Interview, Dec. 3, 1996

of his involvement in the 1988 and 1992 campaigns of Jim Gardner; his service from 1987 to 1995 as state GOP chair; the issue of political redistricting; and factors explaining the broad political realignment in favorof the GOP across the last several decades. The interview proceeds through these matters in roughly chronological fashion, with a focus on Hawke's political involvements. Subject Headings: North Carolina Politics & Government; North Carolina Republican Party; Jim Gardner, the Congressional Club [of North Carolina]; Tom Ellis; Carter Wrenn; Jim Martin; Jim Hunt; Tony Rand; Brad Hays; Christian Coalition in North Carolina.

Comments: Only text in quotation marks is verbatim; all other text is paraphrased,including the interviewer's questions.

[Cassette 1 of 2, Side A -- Tape No. 12.3.96-JH.l]

001 [Opening announcement.]

010 In 1972, why he declined the offer of a staff position in the Nixon White House and later accepted thedirectorship of the Coastal Plains Regional Commission ~ it had much to do with not having to move to Washington, DC.

037 He had no involvement in the eventsof1976, when the Congressional Club effectively denied the sitting GOP governor a seat as a delegate to the national GOP convention in Kansas City; how he did, however, later when NC GOP chair participate in a payback of sorts by denying seats to the Club's top leaders.

053 Between the mid-1970s and 1984, he was involved very little with politics other than in the 4th Districtin North Carolina.

060 Quick accounting of his attempt in 1973 to suggest to the Holshouser Administration that Frank Rouse should be offered the Coastal Plains Regional Commission directorship.

066 Anecdote involving his directorship of Coastal Plains and the Governor of Georgia, Jimmy Carter, who became a big supporter. Carter later invited Hawke to remain as director after Carter's election in 1976, but then asked him to leave when it became known that the FBI was investigating Hawke for criminal conflict of interest.

105 Hawke's ties to Jim Martin, and how Martin in 1983 brought Hawke out of political exile to run his gubernatorial campaign. Details of Hawke's resurrection, which includeda successful effort to claim the 4th District Republican Party Tape Index, Jack Hawke Interview, Dec. 3,1996

chairmanship in 1982 in a race against the law partner of Congressional Club founder Tom Ellis. As Hawke thus reemerged in Republican circles, Jim Martin at the time was working to identify persons with the qualifications necessary to run his gubernatorial campaign. Hawke's enduring gratitude to Martin for his willingness to name Hawke campaign chair, despite Hawke's "baggage" related to his conflict of interest conviction. Hawke's views about the differences between Congressional and gubernatorial campaigns.

Jim Martin's strength as a candidate and Hawke's admiration for Martin made the choice to work for Martin an easy one, even though early on it looked as if the Democratic nominee for governor, Rufus Edmisten, had a huge advantage in the polls as late as August 1984.

How Martin overcame Edmisten: use of a "second-tier" media strategy that successfully sought free media coverage from small-town papers and TV and radio stations; the decision to fire a Washington, DC, political consulting firm in favor of a new consultant; other factors.

Description of Jim Martin: his basic orientation as a "scientist," his characteristic reluctance to fire people, occasional moodiness, etc.

Other details of the 1984 Martin campaign: a shortage of funds constrained Hawke's choices about the timing of Martin's commercials; how the campaign received backing from several key Democrats, including former Charlotte mayor Eddie Knox and Jimmy Green; fundraising efforts; the effort to "get Martin to relax" on camera, which finally succeeded in dramatic fashion when Martin gave his "Declaration Day" address; Martin's habit early on of reverting to discussion of national issues whenever he was tired or unsure of his footing.

Hawke's relationship with Martin and role in the Martin administration: how Hawke's experience of having been resurrected from the status of political pariah often shaped his approach, and how Hawke opposed Martin's relatively apolitical approach to patronage gave rise to tensions between Hawke and others on the Martin team; petty squabbling for status among key Martin aides.

How Hawke decided to quit two months into the Martin administration, was talked into staying by Martin and offered any job he wanted as a reward; when Hawke subsequently departed as a top Martin aide and became director of the state office of Policy and Planning, however, he did not remain nearly asclose to Martin as he would have liked, in part because Martin was not oriented to a planning approach to governing and instead saw decisions as driven by the budget office.

Hawke's complicated and often difficult relationship with Jim Martin, particularly concerning the issue of Hawke's role in the new Martin administration: although Hawke bested Martin's brother and advisor, Joe Martin, during a showdown for leadership of the campaign, Joe Martin effectively tookover the Martin team immediately after the November 1984 victory; how Hawke threatened to leave entirely at that point, prompting Jim Martin to offer Hawke a plum job in the new Tape Index, Jack Hawke Interview, Dec. 3,1996

administration if he would stay on; how Jim Martin and Hawke agreed that Hawke will be Secretary of Transportation, but Joe Martin later maneuvered to place another man in that role, which led Jim Martin to keep Hawke as a top political aide in the Governor's office.

The context outlined just above is the background to Hawke's departure from the Martin administration in 1985 to serve as Chair of the NC GOP.

[End of Side A of Cassette 1 of 1.]

[Cassette 1 of 2, Side B - Tape No. 12.3.96-JH.1]

001 Prior to 1985, Hawke toyed with the idea of running for Lt. Gov. in 1988, but concluded he could not get elected to public office in light of his earlier conviction; how he struck a deal with Martin providing that Martin would appoint Hawke as Secty. of State should Thad Eure die in office, which idea appealed to Hawke because he thought that, if given a chance to serve, he might well win over the voters.

020 The relationship between the Congressional Club and the NC GOP during the 1970s and 1980s: the Club "of necessity" took over the Republican Party in NC during the 1970s; later the Party regained greater independent standing.

040 The race for the state GOP chairmanship in 1985: the Club's candidate, Barry McCarty, and Hawke's worries about McCarty's strength on the stump; Hawke's successful effort to win control of GOP precincts across the state led directly to his victory at the state GOP convention; the practice of "slating people out."

095 Hawke's relationship with the Congressional Club: "It was war [with the Congressional Club] until I won" the chairmanship; it had been a "bitter battle" all across the state. How Hawke met with Carter Wrenn after his election and achieved a successful modus vivendi with the Club; how the Holshouser and Club wings of the party closed ranks somewhat.

135 Jim Martin's deal with the Club in 1987: in exchange for Club backing of Hawke's re-election to a second two-year term as state GOP Chair — which would ensure that Hawke remained in that role through Martin's re-election campaign in 19888 ~ Martin offered to support the Club's candidate in 1989, which would allow the Club's chair to be in place for the 1990 and 1992 U.S. Senate races. By 1989, however, the Club had become comfortable with Hawke, and did not oppose him.

150 The relationship between Tom Ellis and Carter Wrenn: how Wrenn's consistent reference to Ellis as "Mister Ellis" signalled Wrenn's subordinate status to the Club's founder and something of the nature of their relationship. How Hawke has never known the Club to break its word, once given. Tape Index, Jack Hawke Interview, Dec. 3,1996

How Jim Martin came by the late 1980s to be seen as the clear leader of the Republican Party in North Carolina.

How the GOP made huge gains in the 1994 NC legislative races: Hawke's conviction that building a strong party structure was necessary to ultimate GOP success in NC; his decision in 1992 to target the NC Legislature for a major GOP push in 1994, which prompted him to stay on for one final term to see this effort through.

The 1993 election struggle for the position of NC GOP chair: Hawke faced opposition from Sim DeLapp Jr., but prevailed.

Details of Hawke's role in Jim Gardner's successful 1988 campaign for Lt Gov., and the significance of this win forthe GOP. How Hawke encouraged a reluctant Gardner to run, particularly by appealing to his lifelong desire to serve as Governor of the state with the notion that he would be the clear GOP gubernatorial frontrunner in 1992. Sketchof Jim Gardner, and his attractiveness across the GOP spectrum in 1988. Discussion of potential GOP opponents in 1988 for the lieutenant governorship (Betsy Cochrane, Bob Shaw, Bill Hiatt, Bill Cobey). Hawke's conviction that Gardner, absent certain troubles in his record, would easily have won the governorship.

Details of campaign intrigue surrounding the alleged involvement of the Democratic Lt. Gov. opponent, Tony Rand, with a drug trafficker. How Hawke maneuvered to obtain information that would compromise Rand, and sent messages to the Rand camp proposing a quid pro quo whereby Hawke would not attack Rand over this matter if Rand did not attack Gardner forhis questionable business record and failures. In the end, both camps threw every available accusation at the other, and Rand was more damaged by the attacks than Gardner. How Rand later sued Gardner over the accusations of involvement in a drug matter, and how Gardner settled the suit over Hawke's objections.

Gardner's tenure as Lt. Gov., and the attempt to manage Gardner's performance across four years so as to position him for the 1992 gubernatorial race, including the decision to associate Gardner with the fight against drugs. How Gardner's decision to settle Rand's suit hurt him later in his race as governor.

[End of Side B of Cassette 1 of 1.]

inter Index ToDic

[Cassette 2 of 2, Side A -- Tape No. 12.3.96-JH.2]

001 [Opening announcement] Tape Index, Jack Hawke Interview, Dec. 3,1996

The 1992 gubernatorial race between Jim Hunt and Jim Gardner, and Hawke's role in the Gardner campaign; how Hawke and Gardner had a serious falling out in the course of the campaign; the Gardner staffs poor handling of the campaign.

Hawke was not involved much in the 1989 "Mavretic coup" in the NC House, for which Jim Martin deserves considerable credit

Sketch of the late GOP strategist Brad Hays of Charlotte, including several anecdotes involving Jim Gardner (inlcuding Gardner's choice in 1968 to leave Congress and run for Governor) and later with Jim Martin.

Further details about Jim Martin and his relationship with Brad Hays; Hays played a critical role in the Martin administration, although the two men were not close personally. How Hays dominated many situations by sheer force of personality. Martin chose not to consult Hays about his decision to announce that he would never again seek political office; ca.1991, shortly before Hays died, Martin let it be known that he had severed all ties with Hays when Hays came under FBI investigation.

Hawke's involvement with the 1992 Helms-Gantt Senate race: Hawke coordinated efforts with the Congressional Club, particularly in the area of the use of "soft money" for the benefit of Helms. Hawke's decision to implement an idea of the Congressional Club to mail notices to voters in heavily black precincts asserting that they would be violating state law if they were not properly registered but voted nonetheless; Hawke's view that the consultant he hired to do this erred incertain key respects, leading to a later federal court ruling that the NC GOP could no longer be involved in any related effort without prior court approval.

Voter registration efforts by the GOP, including the NC GOP's enormously successful program toregister white conservatives through small, often rural Protestant churches in NC.

The issue of political redistricting in NC, in particular the creation of majority- minority districts: "our motives were political, there's no question about that" Details of the Democrats effort to drawtwo black-majority Congressional districts without simultaneously jeopardizing incumbent Democrats, which resulted in the oddly shaped districts that resulted; how the GOP later picked up seats when Democratic incumbents did not stand for reelection in other districts.

Factors explaining the broad shift in voter identification to the GOP: the old base of the Democratic Party has eroded; Jim Hunt's effort to shape the NC Democratic Party to serve his own ends destroyed the older "good ol' boy" network that underpinned the Democratic Party;

[End of Side A of Cassette 2 of 2.]

mter IndexTopic Tape Index, Jack Hawke Interview, Dec. 3,1996

[Cassette 2 of 2, Side B -- Tape No. 12.3.96-JH.2]

002 [cont'd discussion of the broad political realignment] Errors by the national Democratic Party that pushed the South to the GOP; Republican migration into NC; the social acceptability of being a Republican today in the South.

020 The issue of race in contemporary NC politics; his view that black voters have rejected efforts by the GOP to reach out to blacks; the GOP has made inroads, though not ones easily measured in voting statistics, among middle class blacks who are moving out of solidly black precincts; how many blacks identify more closely with GOP stances on certain key social issues.

048 The heydey of the influence of electronic media on political races has been reached, in part because voters now all use remote control devices to change channels as soon as commercials appear. Radio remains very useful, inpart because negative ads that run on the radio tend not to produce the level of criticism over negative campaigning that much milder TV spots do.

070 The role of the Christian Coalition in NC politics over the last decade: its leaders were "Republicans first" and "we never got into an us-versus-them" while he was state GOP chair; there were battles in 1988 when Pat Robinson ran for president, but many of Robertson's backers moved subsequently into normal party roles.

090 His dissatisfaction with the level of financial influence on government today, "but that's the way the game is played." How hog farmers dominate government in NC today. His concern over the high cost of campaigns today, but rejection of the idea that campaign spending should be limited.

125 His conviction that anyone today still can become as involved in politics and the party as she or he desires; his preference for single-member districts.

145 He does not worry about intra-party tensions in the GOP, thoughhe does see the Party's growth being limited somewhat by the perception among younger voters that the GOP is controlled by the religious right on key issues like abortion.

175 Final thoughts: the GOP has an excellent group of up-and-coming leaders, whereas the NC Democratic Party has few.

199 [End of Side B of Cassette 2 of 2. End of interview.]