3277 Half-an-hour Discussion— [ COUNCIL ] Travancore-Cochin 3278 Ministni

6 P.M.

HALF-AN-HOUR DISCUSSION RE. TRAVANCORE-COCHIN MINISTRY

SHRI M. MANJURAN (Travancore- Cochin) : Mr. Deputy Chairman, on 10th December, in reply to Starred Question No. 23S, the Minister for States informed the Council that there was some agitation in Travancore-Cochin regarding the continuance of the Ministry then: by parties opposed to it. He also informed us that he had not tendered [For English translation, see Appendix any advice to the Ministry or the Rajpramukh VI, Annexure No. 155.] there, but later, confronted by supplementaries, he had to admit that he had SHRI M. C. SHAH: Sir, I thought that at this said at Ernakulam on the 1st November 1953 stage it was not proper for Members to object that he had not only given his consent but also to the demand which has already been passed. his full support to the continuance of the I found that two Members from that side had Ministry. On a question by Mr. C. G. K. welcomed this provision lor elections and Reddy he informed us that he had nobody asked for any particulars. I had all consultations with the Travancore-Cochin those particulars and I would have gladly State Ministers and that he had advised them supplied all those particulars but nobody de- to go ahead. manded them. I feel that Members opposite and my friend Mr. Manjuran also must be The disturbing conflicts or discrepancies in happy that we are holding elections soon, in these statements are fraught with serious March, and he ought to have congratulated the consequences on an issue of such a vital States Ministry or the Home Ministry for nature. I crave your indulgence to present you holding elections very early as was promised the background of it chronologically. After by the Prime Minister. Now, at the third the last general elections, the Congress could reading he is asking for those items. He knows secure only 44 seats in the Travancore-Cochin that in a democratic set up and with adult suff- Legislative Assembly consisting of 108 rage, we have to provide for polling booths, members. Although initially they were the staff have to be provided with salaries, diffident to accept office, owing probably to their dearness allowances, travelling higher persuasions they did accept office and allowances, the printing charges, the nominated one Anglo-Indian member to swell conveyance and so many other things have to their strength. Later they found that it was not be provided for. Therefore, there cannot be a possible to work with that precarious minority break up here now when we are considering and made a coalition with the Tamil Nad the Bill at its third reading. I feel that the Congress Party of nine members. Thus their objections raised now are not proper and that total strength came to 54 in a House of 109. the House should throw them out and return This coalition was destined to be terminated the Bill to the House. with the break-down of the negotiations be- MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The o tween the leaders of the Indian Nat'.cnal iestkn is. Congress and the Tamil Nad Congress in "That the Bill be returned." Delhi and it really broke The motion was adopted. 3279 Half-an-hour Discussion— [ 22 DEC. 1953 ] Travancore-Cochin 3280 Ministry down. No sooner was the news flashed than to them, they hurried to Delhi and had the Chief Minister of Travancore-Cochin and consultations with the States Minister. It was the Finance Minister came to New Delhi. at the instance of, and on the advice tendered Newspaper reports had it that they met the by, the States Minister that they thought of States Minister more than once and had continuing the Ministry. It was not according consultations with him. On his return to the to any constitutional provisions. They were State, the Chief Minister, Mr. A. J. John, not sure of their ground. They were rather informed the Press that he had instructions overwhelmed by the circumstances that were from the Centre for action in case of defection enveloping around them. of the Tamil Nad Congress Party. And on the Sir, the States Minister in the course of his 15th September the Tamil Nad Congress various replies has stated that he had advised member on the Council of Ministers resigned. The Assembly was summoned for the 21st the Travancore-Cochin Ministry, that he had September and on the 22nd September Mr. A. given them the consent to continue and J. John, the Chief Minister moved a motion of further he had also promised to give them confidence. It was debated the next day and their support. That I take it. Sir, is a threat. I was lost by 56 votes to 51. Immediately after know the States Minister has the right to the defeat of the confidence motion he advise the Travancore-Cochin Ministry under repaired to the Rajpramukh and advised him article 371 of the Indian Constitution; I am to dissolve the Legislative Assembly, and it not objecting to it. He can give his consent, was dissolved on the night of the 23rd because he has got the authority and he can September. also promise his support because this great nation of has got a large army, naval Now, I have to ask the States Minister and air strength and he can make use of all through you, Sir, whether Mr. A. J. John had these to support his Ministry against the not relayed the same advice, tendered by the people of Travancore-Cochin. I am not ques- States Minister, to the Rajprnmukh. If that tioning that. But I am questioning one other were the case, we cannot understand the con- thing. Had he the right above this Parliament, tention that the Central Government had not to surpass the authority of this Parliament, interfered in the affairs of the Travancore- and advise the Travancore-Cochin Ministry in Cochin ministerial crisis. They have this matter? He has to account for that if he definitely interfered. The vote of confidence had tendered advice. And if he wanted to was not occasioned by any serious rift over a conceal it from us, had he the right to do that? matter of public policy. The Ministry neither That is the question that is paramount to me. resigned nor gave a chance for the Opposition Before us, the devotees in this sanctuary of to form a Ministry in spite of the Leader of human rights and before this very country the the Opposition writing to the Rajpramukh and States Minister was anxious to keep all this informing every one publicly that he was pre- knowledge away from us. What prompted pared, and that he had the necessary support, him to do this? And later when he was caught to form a Ministry. red-handed, when he had to admit on his own that he had given advice, he had given Those were the circumstances under which consent and he had also promised them the constitutional crisis in Travancore-Cochin support, he threatened us saying that he would has taken place. Several are the intriguing go on giving the same advice if a situation did points arising out of this. The Ministry in arise again. That was too much to be Travancore-Cochin did not know what to do. palatable. Between his initial denial and his That was why, as soon as the news of the later swearing he tore the child of Indian defection of the Tamil Nad Congress Party democracy was made known 3281 Half-an-hour Discussion— [ COUNCIL ] Travancore-Cochin 3282 Ministry [Shri M. Manjuran.] to pieces. He, a SHRI M. MANJURAN: Sir. I am closing. disciple of the great Mahatma, the follower of the system 01 ahimsa and truth, had no I have only to refer to certain aspects of the business to conceal this from us. Never Constitution. To certain questions raised by has been truth so much misrepresented, Prof. Ranga he said that he did not want long never has been dishonesty more manifest, nor arguments. I immediately understood that has a Minister conducted himself more lightly judgment was yet to come; it was only in the and that too in this temple of democracy. argument stage. Here. the. Indian Here was a conspiracy entered into between Constitution, article 356 says: the States Minister of the Union Government "If the President, on receipt of a and the Ministers of a State Government, .and report from the Governor or Raj- against whom? Against the people of pramukh of a State or otherwise, is that State. They were conspiring to satisfied that a situation has arisen continue a Government which had lost in which the government of the State the support of the Legislature, which had cannot be carried on...... " been voted out of office, and yet the States SHRI K. S. HEGDE (Madras): Is Minister said there were precedents and that resignation recognised under the article of the that was the only constitutional practice that Constitution ? could be adopted. Constitutional practices had been growing up for centuries, but for SHRI M. MANJURAN: this particular practice there is no precedent "...... in. accordance with the in the annals of human history, I should say. provisions of this Constitution, the Never has such a thing happened. And President may by Proclamation— (a) then before us he has got the audacity to assume to himself all or any of the come and indulge in falsity only to escape the functions of the Government of the State final indictment. It was his purpose to hide and all or any of the powers vested in or thes^ nefarious transactions and he calls upon exercisable by the Governor or us and future to pronounce a verdict on this Rajpramukh, as the case may be, or question. anybody or authority in the State other than the Legislature of the State", SHRI H. P. SAKSENA (Uttar Pradesh) : On a point of order, Sir, are 'caught red- and in (b), it is specifically given: handed' and 'nefarious' parliamentary "declared that the powers of the expressions? Legislature of the State shall be exercisable by or under the authority of Parliament". THE DEPUTY MINISTER FOR LABOUR (SHRI ABID ALI) : Falsity and dishonesty. Why did he shirk all these, because all that (Interruptions.) happened in Travancore-Cochin would have been brought within the sphere of the SHRI M. MANJURAN: I have heard the cri'.icism of Parliament. Prime Minister of the Indian Gov--ernment There is no representative institution there; use the word 'lie' to the Opposition. It is nothing unparliamentary -to state facts. when the representative institution fails, that is, when the Legislative Assembly was dissolved, what right had the Ministry to continue ? Under MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, article 164(2) of the Constitution it has been order. You must use dignified language. And laid down that "the Council of Ministers shall I have to tell you that five Members have be collectively responsible to the Legislative given notice of their Intention to speak and Assembly". Now, to whom are they there must be sufficient time for the hon. responsible, except to themselves? Is it in the Minister also. Constitution, is it inherent in t the Constitution that the Ministry can 3283 Half-an-hour Discussion— [ 22 DEC. 1953 ] Travancore-Cochin 3284 Ministry govern the country when the legislature is not settled: it ought not to exist in so there ? The Indian Constitution is the only precarious and dependent 8 state as Constitution where, an article like 356 lays that Ministers should have it in down clearly Centre's taking over. That is not their power, at their own mere to be iakm very lightly. There were lengthy pleasure, to acknowledge it with debate.-, on this article in the Constituent respect or to reject it with scorn. Assembly and on the peculiar circun stances It is the undoubted prerogative of prevailing in India. Here, Sir, the the Crown to dissolve Parliament; constitutional breakdown has happened and but it is, of all the trusts vested in instead of applying section 356 directly, the His Majesty, the most critical and States Minister goes on tendering advice delicate, and that in which this privately and proclaiming support publicly. House has the most reason to re That is not the way the Constitution is to be quire, not only the good faith, but treated. Here is a direct provision for it; you the favour of the Crown. We are to have to apply fully the provisions of the inquire and to accuse; and the ob Constitution. Sir, I would not refer to the jects of our inquiry and charge will other points for want of time. be for the most part persons of wealth, power and extensive con MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You should nections...... " give time for the hon. Minister to answer. Then he goes on to say that if dissolution of SHRI M. MANJURAN: HOW can a Parliament rested on the unilateral advice "Council of Ministers continue for six months tendered by the Prime Minister the House of when there is no Assembly, even if you Commons would become a mere appendage stretch the meaning of article 164(4) to the of Administration. utmost? Sir, I would read a remarkable passage from no less an authority than MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Manjuran, don't you want to hear the Edmund Burke speaking on June 14, 1734; Minister? There are five Members to speak. and then, we will see how other •democrats support him. SHRI M. MANJURAN: Sir, one minute ...... "It is a contrivance full of danger for Ministers to set up the representative and THE MINISTER FOR HOME constituent bodies of the Commons of this AFFAIRS AND STATES (Dn. K. N. Kingdom as two separate and distinct KAT.TU) : I have no objection to my powers, formed to counterpoise each other, hon. friend going on till half-past leaving the preference in the hands of sec- six...... ret advisers of the crown. In such a (Interruptions.) situation, these advisers will have it in their choice to resort to the one or the other, as MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, order. may best suit the purposes of their sinister ambition. The whole can end in nothing SHRI V. K. DHAGE (): We are else than the destruction of the dearest willing to sit. Would the hon. Minister be rights and liberties of the nation. If there willing to continue after 6-30? must be another mode of conveying the collective sense of the people to the throne MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please than that by the House of Commons, it resume your seat. This is only a ought to be fixed and defined, and its half-an-hour discussion...... authority ought to be SHRI M. MANJURAN: "It was neces sary ......

DR. K. N. KATJU: What are you reading? 3285 Half-an-hour Discussion— [ COUNCIL ] Travancore-Cochin 3286 Ministry

SHRI M. MANJURAN: I have no time to Travancore-Cochin feels that the continuance explain. I am reading certain passages from of the present Ministry would make a fair and Forsey's book called "Dissolution of free election impossible under the present Parliament". I shall pass on the book to you: conditions and lakhs of people have signed a memorandum to this effect to be presented to "It was necessary that there should be the Rajpramukh of Travancore-Cochin and some great question of public policy at the ? issue before a dissolution could properly be asked for. It is not considered a legitimate SHRI ABDUL RAZAK (Travancore- exercise of the prerogative to dissolve Cochin) : Will the Minister for States be simply for the purpose of strengthening a pleased to state: party which has lost its majority in the (a) When the Assembly of Travancore- House." Cochin was dissolved at midnight on the 23rd Then: September last as an immediate consequence of its refusal to vote confidence in the "Every Prime Minister advising dissolution will assure the Governor that Congress Ministry then functioning, what pre- vented the States Ministry from advising the the step is essential in the interests of the President to take over the Administration country. Implicit reliance on such under article 356 and to vest the same in assurances would simply put a premium on Parliament ? overweening self-confidence or political brazenness". (b) What is (he legal and constitutional Lastly: justification for the preservation in office of a discredited team of Minis- "Peel. Russell and Gladstone declared in that State? If the answer is the clearest terms that a Cabinet defeated in democratic precedents set up in the United the House is not entitled to dissolution Kingdom, will it be possible for the States unless there is some great question of Minister to cite one single instance in the public policy at issue". whole history of the British House of Commons, where a Ministry asked for a vote SHRI V. K. DHAGE: I would like to know of confidence, and having lost it, still one thing. Under this Constitution where a continued in office ? confidence motion sought by the Ministry has (c) ...... failed, what is the import of the collective responsibility to the Legislature ? Whether it MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You are should resign or not ? putting three questions. I will not allow any more. Mr. Kishen Chand. DR. K. N. KATJU: Whose responsibility ? SHRI KISHEN CHAND (Hyderabad) : Mr. Deputy Chairman, in view of the fact that SHRI V. K. DHAGE: Collective res- Travancore-Cochin is a Part B State and the ponsibility to the Legislature. hon. Minister for States could advise the Ministry of Travancore-Cochin, I would like SHRI RAJAGOPAL NAIDU (Madras): My to know from the hon. Minister whether, in only point is this. In what way could not the view of the common practice in the United Government be carried on with the majority Kingdom, which we follow in the absence of of 56 members as against 51 ? any written law to that effect, when Parliament or the Legislature is dissolved, it is SHRI K. C. GEORGE (Travancore- not the boun-den duty of the Ministry in Cochin): Is the hon. Minister aware that a power to hold the elections within one month, large section of the people of and when it has been the practice in the United Kingdom for the last two centuries, why such an advice was no*

3287 Halj-an-hour Discussion— [ 22 DEC. 1953 ] Travancore-Cochin 3288 I ] Ministry given to the Travancore-Cochin Legislature MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, and a similar procedure adopted there? order.

DR. K. N. KATJU: Mr. Deputy DR. K. N. KATJU: Either my hon. friend Chairman, I do not propose at this is not prepared to understand.. late hour to notice every kind of insi ___(Interruption.) I really object to nuation that has been made against this. Really it is not fair to me. You me by the mover of the discussion. do not hear and then you say ...... My hon. friend probably forgot that the Ministers from different States MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, who come to Delhi, come in various order. capacities. Sometimes, they come to DR. K. N. KATJU: So I said, "Here are the consult the Prime Minister. Some two possible contingencies. One contingency times they come to consult the Presi is to accept and resign. The other contingency dent of the Indian National Congress. is not to accept and advise the King or the I am a Congressman and something President or whoever that may be, to dissolve may be asked or there might be the House. I think these are the two something about which I may be contingencies. And if you think that your consulted. So far as the reference to House is divided into different groups, and if the States Ministry is concerned, we you think that the people of the Travancore- received no comanunieat/ion formally Cochin State should be given an opportunity as to what was going to happen. There of saying in whom they have got the was no question of issuing of any confidence, then they ought to say so." directive under article 371 because there was no formal approach. I was And the immediate cause of this crisis asked as a lawyer—people say +hat I arose because 11 members from Cape know some law—as to what could be Comorin on another issue—please done, and I said that my view was—my remember—which has nothing to do with the view may be completely wrong, but government of the people so far as I 'that was my view ...... understood it, said that they wanted to have a Tamil Congress Committee. They were not allowed to do so. They said they wanted to go SHRI M. S. RANAWAT (): over to Madras and things like that and they Do you still do Chamber practice? withdrew their support from the Travancore- Cochin Government. On that issue, they went DR. K. N. KATJU: Either you allow me away, and when the question of this motion of to go on or you allow me to stop. I am no-confidence came, they voted against the perfectly willing. Government. So, I saiid, "If you think that the people are with you and the Members of the MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let there Legislature are not truly reflecting the views be no interruption. of the people, you can advise the Rajpramukh to dissolve the Assembly." That is my understanding of the law. I may be hopelessly DR. K. N KATJU: Otherwise time will wrong, but I still maintain that position and I expire and at half past six I will go away. have maintained that position throughout. Now I was asked as to what could or could not be done. I. said that whenever a motion SHRI K. S. HEGDE: Was it also the view of no confidence is carried, the question is of Professor Coupland? always before the Ministry to go to the King or to the Rajpramukh or to the Gov- DR. K. N. KATJU: I have reached a stage ernor or to the President and say, "Here is when I look to myself and not to others. The our resignation; we cannot carry on.*' question was put to me, "Is it not the British practice to hold

SHRI ABDUL RAZAK: But did they offer the resignation? ^ 116 C. S. D.

3289 Half-an-hour Discussion— [ COUNCIL ] Travancore-Cochin 3290 Ministru [Dr. K. N. Katju.] elections immediately adopted by the Travancore-Cochin within a month?" To be quite frank with Ministry was absolutely right, right in you and to be quite irank with the House, this constitution, as a matter of law, as a aspect of the matter did not concern me at that matter of politics and as a matter of time. There was one great hindrance. expediency also, where you have The Delimitation Commission was political parties like this: 44 Con functioning. You remember that in PEPSU, gress, 42 Communists, 11—I do not because of the resignation of the Ministry and know which party I would other things, the President had to intervene, call it—Party A, 12 Party B, and I was myself most anxious at that 6 Party C. It is absolute- time to have new elections. I would have ly desirable that people shouu have their liked to have the elections within three months government. It is not a question of a hundred or four months. I said so probably in this or a hundred and twenty Members trying to House as also in the other House. I was then settle affairs for themselves: "You ten go told that the Delimitation Commission there and form a government; or you fifteen having started its operation, no general go there and form another government or you elections could possibly be held till the twenty go elsewhere and form a third Delimitation Commission had finished its government." work. Now, the same contingency was there here. We have two things. In the first In a place like this it is desirable place, there is the statutory provision that that the people of the State should be there must be a new Parliament or new given an opportunity to consider this Legislature within six months, and there matter. The general elections took was this thing when the Legislature was place two years ago ...... dissolved there. By reason of the SHRI S. MAHANTY (Orissa): Why not Delimitation Commission having started its President's rule as you did in PEPSU ? operation, the elections could not be held till the Delimitation DR. K. N. KATJU: I will answer Commission had finished its work. that. They will have now an oppor We came here and we spoke to the tunity of pronouncing as to what they Election Commission about it or whoever the think of. this particular party. I am authority may be. We requested the astonished at the question: "Why not Delimitation Commission to pick up this the President's rule?" When Presi Travancore-Cochin work in thelir agenda of dent intervened in PEPSU, there was business and to get on with that and hasten a regular furore or protest from every .the proceedings. They have now done it. I body on those benches ...... think the electoral roll was published only (Interruptions.) on the 15th December, about five or six days ago. There has been no delay and SHRI S. MAHANTY: This is not the *.he elections will take place in February. answer. I crave your protection. With all profound respect, I have not been able to understand this storm in the tea cup. DR. K. N. KATJU: When the Presi It is said that I should have issued a directive. dent intervened in PEPSU, there was I was not asked to do so. Even if I had been a strong protest. When the President asked, I would not have issued it, because in does not intervene here and leaves it spite of all this discussion and all this at least to the 44 representatives of agitation in the newspapers and on public the people to manage, there is pro platforms—constitutional pandits have been test ...... cited beginning from Edmund Burke—I am SHRI K. S. HEGDE: Fifty-one. still of the opinion that the course of action I Dn. K. N. KATJU:...... there is strong protest. I will answer one question before we rise and with some certainty. Some said that the elections may not be fair and unfettered. On that I say that this remark is not

3291 Halj-an-hour Discussion— L 22 DEC. 1953 ] Travancore-Cochin 3292 Ministrii justified. There is the Chief Election the Legislature truly reflected the views of Commissioner and I am sure that he Will do the people, in the opinion of the people. That his duty and you may take it from me that so is a trial. If you win, so much the better. I will far as my powers extend, and so far as my come and congratulate you. Influence extends, I shall see to it that the election is absolutely fair, unfettered and (Interruptions.) completely free. SHRI M. MANJURAN: About elections I (Interruptions.) never said anything.

SHRI ABDUL RAZAK: How could you do SHRI V. K. DHAGE: My question has it when there is a Minister in charge for the not been replied to. What is the import conduct of elections '.' or connotation that you give to......

SHRI K. C. GEORGE: May I know from DR. K. N. KATJU: Will you repeat the the Minister whether he is aware of the question ? background that is created by the Government with the help of tha police to turn the tide in their favour? SHRI V. K. DHAGE: What is the import of the words "collective responsibility to the Legislature", when a confidence motion SHRI K. S. HEGDE: That is an imagination sought by the Ministry has been defeated? by you.

SHRI M. MANJURAN: There was DR. K. N. KATJU: I really don't shooting ...... understand the question.

SHRI ABDUL RAZAK: You cannot (Interruptions.) understand.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: One at a DR. K. N. KATJU: 'Collective res- time. ponsibility' is the responsibility of the Ministers. I really don't understand the question. DR. K. N. KATJU: May I say, there is a habit growing in this House—I don't happen SHRI V. K. DHAGE: Of the Ministry to the to be a Member but of course I may say—for Legislature. many gentlemen to try to speak at one and the same time and if a Minister—poor fellow— is there, he must be given some chance. DR. K. N. KATJU: I quite agree that, when Suppose a Ministry is in power and the the Legislature does not pass a vote of general ejection comes on, you don't want the confidence or passes a positive vote of no- Ministry to walk out, you don't want the confidence, then so far as the House is President to take over. concerned, the matter is settled in that particular House. Then it is for the Chief Minister to consider, for the Cabinet to SHRI K. C. GEORGE: Here is a cir- consider whetheir they can have a better deal cumstance when the people have voted from the people at large. against it. That is the point. It is not a question of DR. K. N. KATJU: The peopie did not vote collective responsibility or of no-confidence against the Ministry. It is, the 52 or 45 who at all. voted against the Government and the question at the general elections will be AN HON. MEMBER: They are afraid of the elections. whether the gentlemen who voted against the Ministry in 3293 Half-an-hour Discussion— [ COUNCIL ] Travancore-Cochin 3294 Ministry DR. K. N. KATJU: Yes, I really do not MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, order. know why they are afraid of a general We cannot go on like this. The hon. Minister election. will finish his remarks. The time is up. Have you finished ? SHRI M. MANJURAN: The dissolution itself was wrong under those circumstances. DR. K. N. KATJU: Yes.

DR. K. N. KATJU: But the thing is done. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The House stands adjourned till 1-30 P.M. tomorrow.

SHRI M. MANJURAN: That is no excuse, The Council then adjourned till for other people also can come and do it. half past one of the clock on Wednesday, the 23rd December 1953.