Canadian Military History

Volume 20 Issue 2 Article 7

2011

Making the Department of National Defence Work in the 1970s: The Deputy Minister and the CDS Remember

J.L. Granatstein

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Recommended Citation Granatstein, J.L. "Making the Department of National Defence Work in the 1970s: The Deputy Minister and the CDS Remember." Canadian Military History 20, 2 (2011)

This Feature is brought to you for free and open access by Scholars Commons @ Laurier. It has been accepted for inclusion in Canadian Military History by an authorized editor of Scholars Commons @ Laurier. For more information, please contact [email protected]. Granatstein: DND in the 1970s Making the Department of National Defence Work in the 1970s The Deputy Minister and the CDS Remember

J.L. Granatstein

n 1988, Robert Bothwell and I were the impact of bilingualism, and Icompleting our research for the Abstract: In the aftermath of unification, massive reorganizations. Dextraze final volume in the Canadian Institute the Canadian Forces were struggling and Cloutier played key roles in of International Affairs’ series Canada to deal with the changes that managing the changes, and these overtook them, not least the Trudeau in World Affairs. As the concluding government’s relative indifference to interviews indicate where they volume in the long-lived series, the the military, the impact of bilingualism, agreed – and disagreed – and tell us ordinary two-year time span was and massive reorganizations. General much about the characters of these abandoned; instead, the book was Jacques Dextraze, who became chief two key figures. of the defence staff in 1972 and Sylvain to cover the 1968 to 1984 period, As was my regular practice, I took Cloutier, the deputy minister in the or, in other words, all of Prime Department of National Defence from notes during these long conversations Minister ’s foreign 1971 to 1975, played key roles in rather than using a tape recorder. and defence policy (as well as the Joe managing the changes. Interviews Immediately after each interview, Clark interregnum). Moreover, it had conducted by J.L. Granatstein in 1988 I typed up a memorandum, not a indicate where they agreed – and been many years since the preceding transcript, of the discussions. These disagreed – and tell us much about the volumes had appeared. This delay characters of these two key figures. memoranda were used as sources gave us the opportunity to make for Pirouette: Pierre Trudeau and use of a wider range of manuscript Canadian Foreign Policy, published sources than in most of the earlier served as chief of operations at by the University of Press volumes, and we secured access to a Mobile Command and then as chief in 1990, and are reproduced below very broad spectrum of government of personnel at National Defence with a few excisions and with and private papers. Headquarters before becoming CDS. minor stylistic and grammatical We also conducted almost two Cloutier, his civilian colleague in corrections. The memoranda can hundred interviews, some together, arms, was commissioner of the public be found in Bothwell’s papers in others alone. Two that I did myself service, deputy secretary of the the University of Toronto archives were with “Jadex”, General Jacques treasury board and deputy minister and in the Granatstein fonds at the Dextraze, the great fighting soldier of taxation in the Department of York University archives, along with who became chief of the defence staff National Revenue before going to memoranda of all the interviews in 1972, and with Sylvain Cloutier, the DND as deputy minister. conducted for the book. Copies of deputy minister in the Department In the aftermath of the memoranda are also deposited at of National Defence from 1971 to unification, the Canadian Forces the and the 1975. Dextraze had led units with were struggling to deal with the Directorate of History and Heritage, distinction during the Second World changes that overtook them, not NDHQ. War and in Korea, been chief of staff least the Trudeau government’s to the UN operation in the Congo, relative indifference to the military, * * * * *

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Interview with Sylvain Cloutier decided there had to be The Defence Research Board Cloutier, , a strong chief of the defence staff. (DRB) was a crown corporation 20 January 1988 General F.R. Sharp was retiring in with its own budget and it did what 1972 and he wasn’t a strong manager, it wanted. To Cloutier, DRB had is interest in DND started something Cloutier had decided by to be made to do what the military Hin 1968 when he was at the Christmas 1971. Jacques Dextraze wanted. In two stages, DRB was Treasury Board [as deputy secretary]. was strong, and Cloutier got the absorbed, leaving only an advisory He was trying to change the form of government to name him CDS- board which was soon eliminated. the estimates to give them structure, designate early in 1972 so he and The chief scientist became a senior to present them in a manner that Cloutier could get underway as soon officer under the ADM Materiel. This combined legal and financial sides as possible. Sharp, he said, was a fine gave better resource management and assisted management in setting man who went along with the new and made DRB serve military needs. and reporting on objectives. DND direction but left the hard decisions Cloutier also did a re-structure despite unification was still three for Jadex to handle. In the end, Sharp of the Canadian Forces Commands. services with civilian and military was sent on tour for the last months He created Air Command which was components. He grouped all votes of his term. negotiated between he and Jadex, under a single programme (except Within a month, Cloutier had then done. He brought in General the Defence Research Board) and a key meeting with the minister, Chester Hull, a big, tough, first class started cutting fat off the estimates CDS, etc., and started the restructure man and the best manager in the CF of which there was a lot. The DND rolling. It took 2-3 months to put flesh to be vice chief of the defence staff structure wasn’t geared to its mission, on the bones – the submission to (VCDS) – talked him out of retiring and this was a period of scandals Treasury Board was 2-3 inches thick. by saying this was the biggest job in (e.g., the HMCS Bonaventure refit). The concepts put forward by Cloutier the country. He managed to shuffle Then in 1971 he was told he was were novel and predicated on the General Michael Dare, the previous going to DND as deputy minister basis of friendship and cooperation VCDS with whom he didn’t agree, off by Gordon Robertson [clerk of the between the CDS and the deputy. to the Privy Council Office. For e.g., privy council]. The government He and Dextraze worked closely for in 1972 the government wanted to cut wanted a hard manager and Donald five years and never once disagreed budgets and asked departments to Macdonald [the minister of national in public. When they fought it was suggest cuts. Cloutier asked Dare for defence] also wanted him. He didn’t in private; at a meeting, if they suggestions, and his first offering was know Don well, but as deputy disagreed, they’d kick each other to eliminate the reserves and save $30 secretary of the Treasury Board, he under the table and change the million. Cloutier, horrified, could see and Macdonald attended some of subject. Now there was resistance the political fallout and refused. the same Cabinet committees. His to having the deputy with such In the first year he restructured mandate was to make DND work. power – co-equal to the CDS, same DND and changed the management. Cloutier arrived in September rank, same pay – but the deputy was He brought in Lew Crutchlow from 1971 and found the management responsible for DND management Treasury Board to be ADM Materiel review group (MRG) in operation and the CDS for the operations of the and Tom Gregg from business to head under John Pennefather [and trying forces. Certainly Cloutier never gave the finance side. He created military to mesh the civil and military parts of an order to the forces – if that was associate DMs (three star officers) DND]. Macdonald told him to take necessary, he’d get the CDS to do it. in materiel and finance, but not in an interest in the MRG’s operations, What he did do was to integrate personnel where the military was on and as he thought DND had to be activities which had been parallel in top and a civilian was associate DM. re-directed he was glad to do so. The the three services or parallel in the To him, the military wasn’t MRG could be the way to change military and civilian components special. The management of direction. But by the time it reported of the deputy’s office. The deputy’s resources and people was the same in early 1972 Macdonald was gone office had about 200 personnel when as elsewhere. and was filling in. he took over; after the change, it had This reorganization created By then Cloutier had his own ideas three or four. He created structures resentment, largely at the novelty of on how to run DND, and the re- that let the CDS and the deputy both what he was doing, and at the fear structure he imposed was not that use them – this eliminated hassles that civilians were taking charge. It recommended by the MRG, although and sped up the process. wasn’t true, however; the civilians in line with its philosophy. were just making an appropriate

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contribution. The proof of that was to measure the capacity of the aircraft when Cloutier left in 1975 the system against the need. In his view, the didn’t change. There was a different military could choose an aircraft. But style but his system survived. There he had to insist on testing that choice was a strong respect for authority in against the economic priorities of the DND, and that helped. There were government and its international also problems with the civilians commitments. If you bore those in

outside DND. At Treasury Board, the REP 73-4 DND Photo mind then you could get Supply secretary, Al Johnson, didn’t believe and Services, External Affairs, and in the changes, but Cloutier dealt Trade and Commerce on side, and with him by calling a meeting where the submission to Cabinet would be a military and civilians talked for three complete piece of work that answered hours with Johnson and swung him all the questions. That way you got round. It wasn’t Cloutier—it was your proposals accepted. “we” at DND. His aim was to marry resources But he wouldn’t have succeeded to purposes; otherwise you misused without Dextraze. They worked the resources. When he took over, the system out together and started on capital budget was 12 percent of the this the first night they met at a mess DND budget; his goal was to get Sylvain Cloutier dinner at Rockcliffe. They then went it up to 22 percent. Indeed he got to Cloutier’s house and drank crème the DND budget increased within de menthe together until 3 am. That but we need twice as many. Cloutier six months – with a $125 million persuaded them they could work refused to sign. pay raise, the first since the freeze. together. He cited a 1973 example when the That was his first priority (“I’m not At one meeting in the summer of Navy made a case to replace the old dumb”). He was also able to get the 1972, he and Jadex and General Ross, destroyers [DDHs]. They started the OK for things DND couldn’t have the senior personnel officer, plotted staff work and made a presentation got before. For example, though postings for the next ten years. All in two parts: on the ships they then Trudeau disliked tanks, he got a the CDSs for the next decade were had and on their personnel. Dextraze decision for armoured cars reversed. on that list, and they determined the said what Cloutier wanted to hear. They were good for nothing, and kind of experience generals needed to The Navy should prepare a new he got tanks back. Don Macdonald prepare for the top. Ramsey Withers, presentation relating their mission [by then finance minister] told him e.g., they decided needed policy to the ships they needed. The Navy “that’s not why we put you there.” experience and command of a large always thought in terms of where Cloutier replied, “You should have front-end command. They gave him they’d been – history, in other words told me.” He had asked the military both. – not of their mission. That was why what tank was best and they had said The big flaw in DND was in the frigate programme took so long. Chieftains or Leopards. At the same programme development which Dextraze’s view was that you might time, the Germans were negotiating was tough as there was no money. have fewer toys for the boys to play to train at Shilo, Manitoba. He found In the pre-Cloutier period, a service with, but at least you’d have more out the Germans would rent tanks developed a programme, then put it efficient utilization of resources. and although the didn’t to the deputy minister who had to What Cloutier did was to create like this, the choice was rent or none. re-do it all over again (for how could a programmes chief, always 2-star As it worked out, they rented tanks the deputy OK something without military, and integrated him under initially then bought them, and they going through it?). In his early days the civilians who worked in the could use the German tanks at Shilo at DND, Cloutier said he got a huge Deputy Minister’s office. This way when the Jerries weren’t. stack of paper to justify the purchase the financial concerns of the civilians DND didn’t have the people it of 48 Boeing 707 aircraft. This wasn’t could be brought to bear on the needed to carry out its commitments. on the budget which was frozen. Why process, and this worked well and As a result, all units were 48?, he asked Sharp. The Orions had faster as capital programmes had to be undermanned. Each day they’d meet to be replaced and they needed twice gone through once only. Eventually for “morning prayers” and report on as many anti-submarine warfare the 707 became the Aurora and 48 readiness. But Cloutier asked “ready aircraft. Was this documented? No, became 18. He had forced the military for what?” They started examining

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the shadow establishments, then to get Richardson to sign but if he He was asked to be VCDS to deciding what they needed as war wouldn’t then he, Trudeau, would. Sharp. He said no. Then he was establishments, then what they As it turned out Richardson did sign. offered the CDS job (instead of could afford. This was a beginning The Minister also wanted to close [General Michael] Dare) by [acting on a White Paper process, a way of CFB Suffield and move the scientists minister Edgar] Benson...which demonstrating with sound analysis to his own Winnipeg riding. Cloutier surprised him as he thought he the gap between what they had and got Cabinet to block this. He was the was going to Mobile Command. He what they needed. Cloutier claimed worst minister he ever served. said yes, and it was announced the there was no evidence of decline in He had known Trudeau a long next day (April 1972). Sharp was in military capability. time and knew he wasn’t keen on the Far East. Dextraze took over in He had created ADM Policy in DND. It took two years to get the September. an attempt to get DND more clout principle established that the capital When he became CDS he applied with External Affairs which hitherto share of the budget should be 25 himself to openly de-unifying where had made policy and told DND to percent, and by the time he left DND he could – naval ranks, uniforms on implement it. The implementer has in May 1975 he had the 3 percent ships and abroad, individual ship to have a large role in making policy, above inflation [annual budget names on caps. He didn’t want new- and that was why the change. He also increase] through. The structure he old uniforms – he could do better started loaning bright young officers and Jadex developed was designed things with $50 million. to Treasury Board and bringing to deal with Trudeau – time couldn’t Air Command was his idea. He Treasury Board people into DND. be wasted in having civilians and told [James] Richardson all air should Later programmes were easier to military in DND fighting each other. be under one command for training, push through as a result. maintenance, and procurement, Ministers: He had 26 ministers but naval helicopters, e.g., would from 1965 in all his portfolios. * * * * * be under command of Maritime [Defence minister] James Richardson Command. It was logical but it did [1972-76] was a “horse’s ass” and cause fights. It would be easier if each Jadex and he spent a lot of time General J.A. Dextraze environment had its own air element trying to prevent him doing stupid interview, Ottawa, 12 April but that was costly. things. Cloutier was so despairing 1988. As CDS, he said, he travelled to at one point that when he ran into the troops in the field. The VCDS ran Trudeau at a party, he asked to be e began with unification. the HQ. He took a sergeant with him moved from DND and told him WHe favoured integration but to make notes on decisions so there why. Trudeau said he had the same disliked unification which he feared could be follow up. reaction to Richardson, but said would ruin the forces. His view He and Sylvain Cloutier had that Cloutier was in DND because was that men fought because of met and talked over the necessity he trusted him. Richardson was a regimental loyalties, for their friends of ending the civil-military clash in small mind, impressed with his own and not for their country. Unification DND. The forces had been unified, public relations. He would only make could hurt this. [Paul] Hellyer was and now the civil-military operations speeches if Cloutier wrote them. Nor advised by three air officers, [William] at NDHQ had to be unified. It was was he sympathetic to bilingualism Lee, [Edwin] Reyno, and [F.R.] clear the minister had to be at the which Cloutier spent much time Sharp, and the air people simply top, the deputy minister and the on. In November 1972, Richardson didn’t understand the navy-army CDS together in the box immediately asked him what he was doing. unit feeling. But he didn’t resign. below. The running of the forces was “Bilingualism.” “It’s not a priority.” [Admiral William] Landymore was the CDS’ job, and the deputy was to “It’s mine,” Cloutier said. Richardson stupid to do so. What you do is fight support the CDS in getting what he tried to stall proposals like the French- against, lose, and try to make the new needed. Syl didn’t like this but was language training centre at St. Jean, system work. That was what he did persuaded. sitting on the memo for three weeks. as a 24-year-old battalion commander He and Cloutier did the Cloutier again met Trudeau and told in Italy when his brigadier told him integration of the civilian and him Richardson was holding this up to attack where he didn’t want to. military streams at NDHQ. They while other ministers were asking Still, he said, unification didn’t hurt were both honest, cooperated, didn’t for it. Trudeau replied he should his Mobile Command units in 1967 fight in public but went at each other make an effort in the next week [sic: 1968]. in private. At meetings, Dextraze

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was in the chair with Syl on the left, otherwise, he would do what he and the VCDS on the right. If they wanted. People were afraid of him, disagreed in a meeting, the decision but not Dextraze. He usually saw him was delayed until they could resolve once or twice a year – in a crunch. it in private. Once in one private Dextraze was funny on argument Cloutier broke down and Richardson as minister. He had cried and Dextraze took him in his 128847 PA LAC admiration for him, a good fellow, arms and comforted him. He then well-meaning. But he was a dummy, talked to Syl’s wife, found out he was a racist, and was absent when brains ill, and bugged him into seeing the were handed out. Dextraze said they quacks. It was clear they really liked fought on French-English questions, each other. He remarked on how Syl and he said, “Do you think you would agree to divide subjects at can just bury six million French Cabinet Committee presentations but Canadians? They won’t lie down.” then leap into Dextraze’s areas. Once Jim would reply by talking about the Trudeau smiled and asked Dextraze costs of having two languages. “So what he had to say. “After hearing just speak French,” Dextraze replied. Admiral Cloutier..., “ he began. But Jacques Dextraze. He was weak in the House, so weak this was just Syl’s style. There was a that he couldn’t defend himself and kind of shyness in Cloutier. Dextraze troops off the NATO central front. the Opposition laid off out of pity. thought he admired Dextraze’s power Don Macdonald also didn’t want When they disagreed, Dextraze and strength and his making him do tanks or fighter aircraft. Eventually would say he wanted to see the things. Cloutier was a schemer which Trudeau agreed to tanks in Europe, prime minister. Richardson said no, was good, someone who could make but Dextraze persuaded him there but the CDS, Dextraze insisted, had things happen. had to be some here for training. the right to do so. One day Dextraze He had made an error in the way Which tanks? He preferred US ones wrote Richardson a letter to tell him they divvied up posts at NDHQ under if they could be secured (as the US that he knew he wanted to be a good the integrated system. ADM jobs was the closest source of supply) minister and could be one by doing were to be interchangeable except but the US Army was in the midst of the following x points. He made only for finance. Syl wanted policy too but developing a new main battle tank. one copy and sent the letter by hand. Dextraze refused. The problem was He had to get rid of the Centurion and The minister then called him and the civilians were now taking over the new UK tank was too heavy. The Dextraze went over with his copy at NDHQ because the spots weren’t Germans were re-equipping with the which Richardson tore out of his fixed in concrete. Certainly the old Leopard I (the II was on the drawing hand and ripped up. “The letter has system didn’t work. The civilians boards), so he saw the German CDS never been received.” But the next fought the military and DND never with whom he was friendly and day, being a good fellow, Richardson got anywhere at Treasury Board persuaded him to arrange a meeting called up to say he couldn’t sleep and where the deputy ministers always with the German defence minister. to apologize. He and Cloutier had preferred the word of [Cloutier’s He told the minister he needed only to plot together on how to deal with predecessor, Elgin] Armstrong – a hundred or so, that these could Richardson. When Jim resigned he really difficult to deal with – over that be found by giving German units called Dextraze in Brussels to tell him of the military. a few less. He got him to agree by he was going. Dextraze urged him to As for who ran things, he or Syl, stressing that Trudeau was usually wait until he got home, but the next Dextraze was convinced he did. They in disagreement with everything, but day he read that he’d quit. worked together but it was his show. that he had agreed to a new tank (he [Barney] Danson [minister 1976- I asked how he reacted to comments was sure Trudeau thought Dextraze 79] was much better. He had been a that Cloutier had conned him. He was couldn’t get new tanks). As a result, fighting soldier, understood troops amused (sort of) and said that so long Dextraze sent his ADM Materiel to and vice versa. as he got what he wanted, and he did, Germany and it was all worked out. Don Macdonald he liked for people could think that. Trudeau, he said, was not really his hard work. As Finance minister, He talked about tanks. Trudeau anti-military. Honest, hard-working, however, he had bitterly opposed the didn’t want any, and Dextraze told with his own ideas of what was new tanks and was really annoyed him if that was the case get the best. If you couldn’t persuade him when Dextraze kept plugging for

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them and finally succeeded. But as defence minister, Macdonald didn’t push for cuts in NATO. The armoured cars in Canada he knew weren’t great things. Lousy 75 mm gun, etc. But they were all he could get, could be used to train tank crews, and they had utility in civil disorders. DND Photo IS75-585 DND Photo * * * * * n the four decades since Sylvain ICloutier and Jacques Dextraze worked together at national defence, the verdict on the Trudeau government’s handling of the Canadian Forces has been harshly rendered. The shock of unification was profound, and it was followed by the only slightly lesser impact of bilingualism on a hitherto mostly-unilingual military. Add to that budget freezes, increasingly obsolescent equipment, and the general impact of the unpopular Vietnam War on the way the military, even the Canadian military, was perceived by the public, and it was a dark time indeed. But even rapid Chief of the Defence Staff General Jacques Dextraze (right) change must be managed, and the during a visit to Baffin Island in the Canadian north, circa 1972. deputy minister and the chief of the defence staff did their jobs well. The relationship between integrated the civilian and military 1970s a time of glowing achievement Cloutier and Dextraze was a close sides of the department, changed the for the Canadian Forces, but matters one, as these interviews show, even way the headquarters functioned, could have been much worse. That though each man was convinced and secured rather more funding might be a tepid comment, but it is that he was the directing force, and equipment for the Canadian intended as a compliment to Dextraze the dominant player. Scholars can Forces than seemed possible from and Cloutier who served Canada and form their own opinions over, for a prime minister who was cool to the Canadian Forces well. example, who created the idea of the military and a finance minister Air Command or who persuaded the who tried very hard to keep defence government to secure new tanks, and spending down This was a major they will likely be as divided in their achievement, one that could not have J.L. Granatstein is the author of the second views as were senior officers who been accomplished if the CDS and the edition of Canada’s Army: Waging War and worked in NDHQ during the 1970s. deputy minister had not cooperated Keeping the Peace (University of Toronto Press, 2011). What is clear is that the two men closely. No one could have made the

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