The Deputy Minister and the CDS Remember
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Canadian Military History Volume 20 Issue 2 Article 7 2011 Making the Department of National Defence Work in the 1970s: The Deputy Minister and the CDS Remember J.L. Granatstein York University Follow this and additional works at: https://scholars.wlu.ca/cmh Part of the Military History Commons Recommended Citation Granatstein, J.L. "Making the Department of National Defence Work in the 1970s: The Deputy Minister and the CDS Remember." Canadian Military History 20, 2 (2011) This Feature is brought to you for free and open access by Scholars Commons @ Laurier. It has been accepted for inclusion in Canadian Military History by an authorized editor of Scholars Commons @ Laurier. For more information, please contact [email protected]. Granatstein: DND in the 1970s Making the Department of National Defence Work in the 1970s The Deputy Minister and the CDS Remember J.L. Granatstein n 1988, Robert Bothwell and I were the impact of bilingualism, and Icompleting our research for the Abstract: In the aftermath of unification, massive reorganizations. Dextraze final volume in the Canadian Institute the Canadian Forces were struggling and Cloutier played key roles in of International Affairs’ series Canada to deal with the changes that managing the changes, and these overtook them, not least the Trudeau in World Affairs. As the concluding government’s relative indifference to interviews indicate where they volume in the long-lived series, the the military, the impact of bilingualism, agreed – and disagreed – and tell us ordinary two-year time span was and massive reorganizations. General much about the characters of these abandoned; instead, the book was Jacques Dextraze, who became chief two key figures. of the defence staff in 1972 and Sylvain to cover the 1968 to 1984 period, As was my regular practice, I took Cloutier, the deputy minister in the or, in other words, all of Prime Department of National Defence from notes during these long conversations Minister Pierre Trudeau’s foreign 1971 to 1975, played key roles in rather than using a tape recorder. and defence policy (as well as the Joe managing the changes. Interviews Immediately after each interview, Clark interregnum). Moreover, it had conducted by J.L. Granatstein in 1988 I typed up a memorandum, not a indicate where they agreed – and been many years since the preceding transcript, of the discussions. These disagreed – and tell us much about the volumes had appeared. This delay characters of these two key figures. memoranda were used as sources gave us the opportunity to make for Pirouette: Pierre Trudeau and use of a wider range of manuscript Canadian Foreign Policy, published sources than in most of the earlier served as chief of operations at by the University of Toronto Press volumes, and we secured access to a Mobile Command and then as chief in 1990, and are reproduced below very broad spectrum of government of personnel at National Defence with a few excisions and with and private papers. Headquarters before becoming CDS. minor stylistic and grammatical We also conducted almost two Cloutier, his civilian colleague in corrections. The memoranda can hundred interviews, some together, arms, was commissioner of the public be found in Bothwell’s papers in others alone. Two that I did myself service, deputy secretary of the the University of Toronto archives were with “Jadex”, General Jacques treasury board and deputy minister and in the Granatstein fonds at the Dextraze, the great fighting soldier of taxation in the Department of York University archives, along with who became chief of the defence staff National Revenue before going to memoranda of all the interviews in 1972, and with Sylvain Cloutier, the DND as deputy minister. conducted for the book. Copies of deputy minister in the Department In the aftermath of the memoranda are also deposited at of National Defence from 1971 to unification, the Canadian Forces the Canadian War Museum and the 1975. Dextraze had led units with were struggling to deal with the Directorate of History and Heritage, distinction during the Second World changes that overtook them, not NDHQ. War and in Korea, been chief of staff least the Trudeau government’s to the UN operation in the Congo, relative indifference to the military, * * * * * Published© Canadian by Scholars Military Commons History @, Laurier,Volume 2011 20, Number 2, Spring 2011, pp.59-64. 59 1 Canadian Military History, Vol. 20 [2011], Iss. 2, Art. 7 Interview with Sylvain Cloutier decided there had to be The Defence Research Board Cloutier, Ottawa, a strong chief of the defence staff. (DRB) was a crown corporation 20 January 1988 General F.R. Sharp was retiring in with its own budget and it did what 1972 and he wasn’t a strong manager, it wanted. To Cloutier, DRB had is interest in DND started something Cloutier had decided by to be made to do what the military Hin 1968 when he was at the Christmas 1971. Jacques Dextraze wanted. In two stages, DRB was Treasury Board [as deputy secretary]. was strong, and Cloutier got the absorbed, leaving only an advisory He was trying to change the form of government to name him CDS- board which was soon eliminated. the estimates to give them structure, designate early in 1972 so he and The chief scientist became a senior to present them in a manner that Cloutier could get underway as soon officer under the ADM Materiel. This combined legal and financial sides as possible. Sharp, he said, was a fine gave better resource management and assisted management in setting man who went along with the new and made DRB serve military needs. and reporting on objectives. DND direction but left the hard decisions Cloutier also did a re-structure despite unification was still three for Jadex to handle. In the end, Sharp of the Canadian Forces Commands. services with civilian and military was sent on tour for the last months He created Air Command which was components. He grouped all votes of his term. negotiated between he and Jadex, under a single programme (except Within a month, Cloutier had then done. He brought in General the Defence Research Board) and a key meeting with the minister, Chester Hull, a big, tough, first class started cutting fat off the estimates CDS, etc., and started the restructure man and the best manager in the CF of which there was a lot. The DND rolling. It took 2-3 months to put flesh to be vice chief of the defence staff structure wasn’t geared to its mission, on the bones – the submission to (VCDS) – talked him out of retiring and this was a period of scandals Treasury Board was 2-3 inches thick. by saying this was the biggest job in (e.g., the HMCS Bonaventure refit). The concepts put forward by Cloutier the country. He managed to shuffle Then in 1971 he was told he was were novel and predicated on the General Michael Dare, the previous going to DND as deputy minister basis of friendship and cooperation VCDS with whom he didn’t agree, off by Gordon Robertson [clerk of the between the CDS and the deputy. to the Privy Council Office. For e.g., privy council]. The government He and Dextraze worked closely for in 1972 the government wanted to cut wanted a hard manager and Donald five years and never once disagreed budgets and asked departments to Macdonald [the minister of national in public. When they fought it was suggest cuts. Cloutier asked Dare for defence] also wanted him. He didn’t in private; at a meeting, if they suggestions, and his first offering was know Don well, but as deputy disagreed, they’d kick each other to eliminate the reserves and save $30 secretary of the Treasury Board, he under the table and change the million. Cloutier, horrified, could see and Macdonald attended some of subject. Now there was resistance the political fallout and refused. the same Cabinet committees. His to having the deputy with such In the first year he restructured mandate was to make DND work. power – co-equal to the CDS, same DND and changed the management. Cloutier arrived in September rank, same pay – but the deputy was He brought in Lew Crutchlow from 1971 and found the management responsible for DND management Treasury Board to be ADM Materiel review group (MRG) in operation and the CDS for the operations of the and Tom Gregg from business to head under John Pennefather [and trying forces. Certainly Cloutier never gave the finance side. He created military to mesh the civil and military parts of an order to the forces – if that was associate DMs (three star officers) DND]. Macdonald told him to take necessary, he’d get the CDS to do it. in materiel and finance, but not in an interest in the MRG’s operations, What he did do was to integrate personnel where the military was on and as he thought DND had to be activities which had been parallel in top and a civilian was associate DM. re-directed he was glad to do so. The the three services or parallel in the To him, the military wasn’t MRG could be the way to change military and civilian components special. The management of direction. But by the time it reported of the deputy’s office. The deputy’s resources and people was the same in early 1972 Macdonald was gone office had about 200 personnel when as elsewhere. and Edgar Benson was filling in. he took over; after the change, it had This reorganization created By then Cloutier had his own ideas three or four. He created structures resentment, largely at the novelty of on how to run DND, and the re- that let the CDS and the deputy both what he was doing, and at the fear structure he imposed was not that use them – this eliminated hassles that civilians were taking charge.