CANADA

1st SESSION  36th PARLIAMENT  VOLUME 137  NUMBER 68

OFFICIAL REPORT (HANSARD)

Thursday, June 4, 1998

THE HONOURABLE GILDAS L. MOLGAT SPEAKER CONTENTS

(Daily index of proceedings appears at back of this issue.)

Debates: Victoria Building, Room 407, Tel. 996-0397 Published by the Senate Available from Canada Communication Group — Publishing, Public Works and Government Services Canada, Ottawa K1A 0S9, at $1.75 per copy or $158 per year. Also available on the Internet: http://www.parl.gc.ca 1635

THE SENATE

Thursday, June 4, 1998

The Senate met at 2:00 p.m., the Hon. the Acting Speaker and extended parents, in recognition of his outstanding work in Eymard G. Corbin in the Chair. the promotion of human equality, family law and social policy. He has also come out in favour of the decriminalization of Prayers. marijuana, and has taken a special interest in the use of drugs in this country and the need to develop a more realistic policy regarding them. THE HONOURABLE DUNCAN J. JESSIMAN Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! TRIBUTES ON RETIREMENT Senator Lynch-Staunton: His passionate interest in the Hon. John Lynch-Staunton (Leader of the Opposition): welfare of veterans derives in large part from the fact that he Honourable senators, I rise to pay tribute to our colleague himself is one, having served with distinction in the Royal Duncan Jessiman, who sits here today for the last time, since Canadian Navy, which he joined in 1942 and left at the end of the tomorrow, June 5, he will reach the mandatory retirement age. war with the rank of lieutenant. More than once, his sea duties While it is one thing to extol a senator whose career began before led him near to death. one’s own, it is quite another to speak of a colleague whose contributions and achievements have been witnessed from their I did try to get a copy of his recruitment records, to find an very first day. In Senator Jessiman’s case, they have been so explanation for how a prairie boy ends up in the navy. numerous that it is hard to believe that they were all realized in only five years. Senator Carstairs: They all did. Unfortunately, this exceptional record is seriously marred by Senator Lynch-Staunton: Both the Access to Information his negligence of the chamber itself. From his appointment until Commissioner and the Privacy Commissioner counselled today, the Senate has held 311 sittings, and Senator Jessiman restraint on this one. only attended 235 of them, for a paltry attendance record of only 74.4 per cent. A successful and highly regarded corporate law graduate from the University of Manitoba, from which he also received an Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! honorary degree, Duncan has been a most active member of the Winnipeg community, having been successfully involved with Senator Lynch-Staunton: In anticipation of the official the University of Winnipeg, the Victoria General Hospital, the opposition members in the other place haranguing him for his United Way, the Canadian Arthritis Society, to name but some of absenteeism — that is, if they can break away from signing on to the organizations which have benefited from his energy and the parliamentary pension plan through their crocodile tears — I enthusiasm. His support of the Conservative Party, both will try as best I can to explain his absences. provincially and federally, has been unswerving, particularly during its dark years in the 1950s when Tories in Manitoba were No sooner was he appointed in May of 1993 than Senator about as numerous as those in Quebec at that time, and even are Jessiman made his presence felt on a number of committees, in today, come to think of it. particular the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee, the Social Affairs Committee and its Subcommittee on Veterans In the gallery are Senator Jessiman’s wife, Alix, and his two Affairs, and the Fisheries Committee. He was a most effective sons Duncan and Robert and their wives. To Alix in particular, and persuasive member of the Special Committee on the Pearson and to Senator Jessiman’s entire family, I wish to express on Airport Agreements during the summer of 1995. The following behalf of all of my caucus colleagues our heartfelt thanks for summer he attended hearings on the amendments to Term 17 of allowing their personal lives to be disrupted so that Duncan could the Constitution and stayed with them throughout, despite the give us the full benefit of his intellect and uncanny ability to pain caused by his delaying major surgery. His participation in dissect legislation. I must alert them, however, that while he hearings on the amendments to the Divorce Act led to the setting intends to return to the practice of law in Winnipeg, to improve up of a Joint Committee on Child Custody and Access, which his golf game, especially his putting, with professional help or will not be the same with him gone. not, and to arrange cruises no longer threatened with cancellations, he has informed me that he will be available for Yesterday, by the way, he was honoured by the Human consultation on a non-partisan basis. Equality Action and Resource Team, known as HEART, a national coalition of organizations representing fathers, mothers Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! 1636 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

Senator Lynch-Staunton: However, he refuses to be declared inform you of all of Duncan’s countless career achievements, but a national treasure or resource, out of respect for provincial I must tell you it has been difficult to choose which to highlight. jurisdiction in this field. As a matter of fact, a request is being From 1948 to 1971, for over 23 years, he served as a lawyer with forwarded this week to the Internal Economy Committee Johnston, Jessiman & Gardner. In 1971, Senator Jessiman requesting space for him in the Centre Block and, if approved, he traversed to Pitblado & Hoskin, where he became a senior will be installed on weekends in a three-table suite in the partner. From 1956 to 1967, for over 11 years, he was a lecturer fifth-floor cafeteria. for post-graduate courses in corporation law at the University of Manitoba. While embarking upon his career as a lawyer, Duncan (1410) Jessiman volunteered his time to his community with a similar degree of that same dedication. Duncan, we will all miss you. Your five years have been such that your absence will be felt for a long time. May you enjoy an He also has an extensive history of community service in our active retirement from the Senate. Few have deserved it more. province and across our country. Again, I just want to mention a few highlights. For 16 years, Duncan was the chairperson of the Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! board of governors of the University of Winnipeg. He was a founding member, chairperson of the board and member of the Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the executive committee of the Victoria General Hospital Research Government): Honourable senators, I rise today to pay tribute to and Services Inc. He joined the Royal Canadian Navy, as Senator Senator Duncan Jessiman, a colleague, a friend, a fellow Lynch-Staunton has indicated, as a volunteer in the reserves in Manitoban and, for many years, a very close neighbour. I lived in 1942 and served in Canada, the United States and France, being number 1, 525 Wellington Crescent and he still lives in honourably discharged with the rank of lieutenant in 1945. number 7, 525 Wellington Crescent. Today is the occasion of his retirement and I will miss him very much. He was a member of the advisory boards of the Rainbow Stage and of the Canadian Arthritis Society, the chairperson of the I should like to start by saying that in this chamber, as cabinet of the United Way of Winnipeg, the president of the individuals and as affiliates of political parties, we frequently Rotary Club of Winnipeg, and the list goes on. oppose one another on motions, on bills and on opinions. However, we often also reach consensus on these very same With such dedication to career and community, it is hard to things. What this allows us to achieve, in a collegial manner, is, find the time, sometimes, that Duncan found to become involved in my view, simply respect — respect for one another as in the Progressive Conservative Party, and I must say, as a former individuals and respect for each other’s political associations. It leader in the Province of Manitoba, I wish he had found just a is my view that this is what makes this chamber a particularly little less time to become involved. He is certainly proof of the special legislative chamber. adage: If you want something done, ask a busy person. He was much more than simply involved with his party for nearly When I see Senator Jessiman sitting across from me in this 40 years; Senator Jessiman has contributed to his party in many chamber, or I see him or hear his name mentioned outside these ways, not the least of which was that he served as chief walls, the concept of respect is at the forefront of my thoughts. fund-raiser at both the federal and provincial levels. Senator Jessiman, through example in this chamber, on Senate committees, in public business and in community work, has both On May 26, 1993, his dedication was recognized when he was offered respect and has been afforded it in return — and quite summoned to the Senate. A week prior to this, Duncan attended justifiably. He has exemplified how an individual can oppose the a dinner party in my home and revealed, with some sense of views of others, and yet still respect them in Parliament and despair, that he did not think the appointment would be his. I outside. I commend Senator Jessiman for this admirable trait. A suppose he tried to escape his eventual fate because, on the very great deal can be learned from the example he has set during his day his appointment was announced, I tried to deliver a bottle of five years of membership in this chamber: how, for example, champagne to my neighbour, but that day, Senator Jessiman was across party lines we can work toward mutual goals. in Vancouver. However, I did manage to deliver it when he returned to the province the next day. A second trait of Duncan’s that I admire is his intense sense of dedication — dedication to his education, his career, his Honourable senators, let me make a connection between community work, his political life, and his family. Senator Jessiman’s role in Canadian society and his role as a senator in this chamber. Senator Jessiman’s eclectic background Nearly 50 years ago, Duncan Jessiman chose law as his has strengthened his involvement in this place. His experiences educational aspiration and has stuck to it ever since. He received in World War II enhanced his work as a senator. Take, for his BA, his LLB, and his LLM from the University of Manitoba, example, his contribution to the Subcommittee on Veterans and an honorary Doctorate of Laws from the University of Affairs and his assistance in developing public and institutional Winnipeg. After graduation, Senator Jessiman began his legal consensus with respect to the War Museum, as well as his very career and it, too, exudes dedication. I would not find it hard to clear concern for appropriate medical services for veterans. June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1637

Let us also consider the influence of Duncan’s experiences and retire.” And then, when retirement comes, he looks back his involvement on the Legal and Constitutional Affairs over the landscape traversed; a cold wind seems to sweep Committee with respect to Bill C-8, the Controlled Drugs and over it; somehow he has missed it all, and it is gone. Life, Substances Act. Far be it from me to suggest what experience we learn too late, is in the living, in the tissue of every day Duncan had that led to his strong position in regard to this bill, and every hour. but whatever it was — most likely his response to witness testimony — it made a strong impact on him. At the age of 73, However, when I look back at the dedication of Senator Duncan became a spokesperson, so to speak, for marijuana Jessiman, to his education, political life, his legal career, his decriminalization. Duncan’s position was so pronounced, I community work, and his family, I have full confidence in saying understand, that his office is still receiving calls from those who that Duncan, my friend, my colleague, my fellow Manitoban, support the decriminalization of this drug. was never that little boy to start with, and he has lived each and In all sincerity, Senator Jessiman’s membership on the Legal every day to its fullest. and Constitutional Affairs Committee is exemplary of how this chamber works. Senator Jessiman approached his responsibility To close, I must say that I prefer an address given by Wilder on the committee with an open mind, and concluded with an Penfield at the Canadian Club in Montreal in 1959. He stated: informed position. The time for retirement should be reorganized and Let me recite the words he spoke to the Senate reflecting this renamed. It is the time for embarking on a new career. admirable trait: (1420) Honourable senators, let me say at the outset that I am I should like to wish the Honourable Senator Duncan Jessiman and always have been, and always will continue to be, very even greater times in the years to come and a wonderful much opposed to persons using drugs except for medical retirement from the Senate, however he chooses to define it. purposes. Having said this, however, having read a great deal about how the war against drugs is being conducted Hon. Senators: Hear hear! and having heard from several witnesses, including representatives of our government, members of the Hon. Terry Stratton: Honourable senators, I, too, stand today Canadian Bar Association, the Canadian Medical to pay my respects to our colleague Senator Duncan Jessiman. Association and several others, I am now of the strong view Much has been said by the previous speakers on which I will not that the thrust of most governments, including the Canadian go into further detail. However, I will give an overview from the Tory side. government, in criminalizing the possession of drugs is wrong. Speaker Charbonneau welcomed Senator Jessiman to the Senate on May 31, 1993 along with Senators Gustafson and With words like this, I believe we can all understand why Roberge. When the then Leader of the Government, Senator Senator Jessiman continues to receive phone calls in his office Murray, introduced Senator Jessiman, he said: soliciting his support. Finally, but by no means last, I would like to acknowledge Senator Jessiman, a veteran of the Second World War, is a Duncan’s dedication to his family, to his wife, Alix, and their lawyer and a past bencher of the Manitoba Law Society. In three children, Duncan, Robert and Sally, and to his recognition of his reputation in his profession, in the grandchildren. To have as full and as successful a career as business community and in community service, the Duncan has had, it is obvious that a strong, loving and committed University of Winnipeg has conferred upon him an honorary family was walking beside him, and we thank them all for their degree of Doctor of Laws. contributions. Duncan was born and raised in Winnipeg, Manitoba. At the Honourable senators, 75 is the age of retirement in this place. age of 18, he joined the Royal Canadian Navy as a midshipman. However, the wisdom of the retiring individual continues on He served in the coastal forces in Canada, the United Kingdom within the walls of this chamber. I am reminded of a statement by and France. He served with the 29th Canadian Motor Torpedo Stephen Leacock in 1939 on his thoughts about retirement: Boat Flotilla and was part of the Allied liberation of Europe, participating in D-day, June 6, 1944, and in operations on the The child says, “When I am a big boy.” But what is that? French, Belgian and Dutch coasts. This was dangerous duty. He The big boy says, “When I grow up.” And then, grown up, survived the destruction of his squadron at 0stend in 1945. He he says, “When I get married.” But to be married, what is was honourably discharged as a Lieutenant RCNVR in that after all? The thought changes to “When I’m able to August 1945. 1638 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

Upon his return to Canada, he attended the University of Being a prairie boy, he was constantly seasick. He would have Manitoba, started practising law in 1948, and continues to do so lunch, and by 1:30 in the afternoon his lunch would be in the today. He was appointed Queen’s Counsel in 1959 and has ocean. He was called into the doctor’s office who told him, “If appeared successfully before the Supreme Court of Canada on you do this once more, you will be put on land and will never see four occasions. the sea again.” Thereafter, Duncan was able to hold off getting seasick, at least until he was out of sight of that doctor. The senator has served the community of Winnipeg in many ways. He was a member of the board of the University of In England, at night, in very light craft, his ship would cross Winnipeg for 16 years and is a past chairman of that institution. the channel to France, seeking out and trying to destroy the He was a member of the board of the Victoria General Hospital enemy along the coast. They would head for home at dawn. As in Winnipeg for 15 years and is also a past chairman of that dawn was nearing one morning, they came around a point of land institution. He is a past president and member of the Rotary Club straight into a group of German ships. The commander of the of Winnipeg. He is a past member of the boards of the Rainbow flotilla, a kid probably not much older than Duncan, was in the Stage and the Canadian Arthritis Society. craft ahead which was blown right out of the water, so Duncan considers himself a very lucky man. He was lucky again during Recently, Senator Jessiman was criticized in the other place for his first leave. He came home to Canada and, while he was here, being a Tory fund-raiser, which, it was said, somehow made him his ship blew up in the harbour. Everyone aboard was killed. an unsuitable member of this chamber. Yes, he raised money for Again, he was a very lucky man. the Tories and, by gosh, it was a lot of money. However, he also raised a lot of money for all the charitable organizations he He has also been very fortunate with his family; Alix, his volunteered with, both in Manitoba and throughout the entire children and his grandchildren. He has said, “I am very, very country. lucky.”

Senator Jessiman’s background and experience before coming Duncan stole a story from me last night about the “Big O.” to the Senate has been a tremendous asset to the work we do Duncan has, on his license plate, the “Big Big O.” Before he here. He meticulously reviewed legislation and has greatly leaves this chamber today, I want him to tell you the story about enhanced the level of debate in this chamber. We will all greatly the “Big O,” because in his family he is called “Big.” Look at the miss him. size of him. There is a wonderful story in that which I think he However, we have heard enough about his curriculum vitae as should tell you. it were. We need to think about the human face of the man; what (1430) he is really like. When I heard about Duncan when I first became involved in politics, he was “the man,” the “éminence grise” and There is another story about golf. Duncan loves to golf. He is he scared a lot of folks, especially the younger turks. It was not not a bad golfer. As his son said, he had a nice natural swing, until one got to know him through working on campaigns and except when it came to putting. His wife alluded to the fact that attending fund-raising dinners that the human face evolved, and he should see a psychiatrist because he could never solve his that side of him was seen by many people. That is not to say that putting stroke. It was a jab instead of a smooth swing through. he was not a tough negotiator or as tough as heck as a chair of dinners. There is a wonderful story of his wife coming home one day to Duncan was raised on the prairies during the Depression. As find Duncan sitting on the couch wearing a set of headphones. I you are aware, the Depression affected the prairies more than any ask Duncan to tell the story, if he can remember it. other area of the country. Many folks rode the rails from one town to another to get work. My older brother rode the rails with The last one, of course, is the one that I would love to tell. It is a few buddies to British Columbia and picked cherries for a the story about Mr. Big again and his love of being big. Look at while. Duncan ran away from home to do the same, except he how big he is, honourable senators. was commandeered to fight forest fires and never got to pick cherries. His initials are D.J.J., Duncan James Jessiman. One day he decided to change his second initial to “W,” thus making his Senator Jessiman has told me that when he was 16 and was initials D.W.J. What the heck did the “W” stand for? It stood for running away from home, the maid gave him a lunch on his way Wayne. Guess which Wayne, honourable senators. John Wayne! out the door. I wonder whether it was the maid or his mother. He He loved John Wayne. A couple of years later he realized that it says it was the maid, but you know how kids are at that sage, was inappropriate and he changed his initials back to D.J.J. especially boys; they treat the house like a hotel and their mother like a maid. These are stories from his family which show how much they love the man and how much faith and trust they have in him. When the war started, this prairie boy volunteered for service. They know he can take a joke. For that, Duncan, you are indeed On the prairies, we have a sea of wheat, so when we look at a sea the luckiest guy around. Thank you. of water we think it cannot be so bad. Duncan joined the navy and patrolled our East Coast in small boats. Hon. Senators: Hear, hear!

[ Senator Stratton ] June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1639

Hon. Philippe Deane Gigantès: Honourable senators, I have I do not know how he did it all. However, I do know he loved much esteem for Senator Jessiman. We have a bond. I watched every minute of it. Had he arrived here sooner, he would have him wincing while whatever he did in World War II in the taken over the place, except for western caucus. Duncan, I still torpedo boats was described in such amateurish fashion but with do not know where you were all those nights that our western such friendly affection by his colleague and seat-mate. He has caucus met. You must have been somewhere a lot more fun than been an ornament to this house. sitting up in the alcove in the Parliamentary Restaurant. Perhaps you could share that with me at another time. I have had the privilege of sitting with him on the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs where we In any event, I doubt that you will retire, Duncan. Rather, I considered disputatious issues. However, one could always rely know you will continue in your legal work and your many other on his gentlemanliness and friendliness. pursuits. I wish you, your wonderful wife, Alix, and your terrific family all the very best. The three of us who also served in World War II who will be left after he takes his leave today will be lonely. However, I will God speed, Duncan. be the least lonely because I am the next to leave. Senator Phillips and Senator Johnstone will be the last ones from that generation in this place. The others can only talk afterward about Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! their grandfathers and what their grandfathers did. Hon. David Tkachuk: Honourable senators, I, too, would like You are a fine man, sir. Best of luck. to spend some time paying tribute to my friend Dunc Jessiman. Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! Unlike many Manitobans, I did not know Dunc: I had just heard of Dunc before he arrived in the Senate. I finally met him Hon. Janis Johnson: Honourable senators, I, too, wish to join in February of 1994. There was an election going on at the time. in the tributes today to a colleague who has given so much to his country, his province of Manitoba and the Senate of Canada, the I had a chance encounter with Dunc in the spring of 1993 Honourable Duncan Jessiman. when we were both appointed to the Senate. I had to listen to Senator Duncan Jessiman give that speech on the $6,000 expense I do not think Duncan knows how much I admire him and the allowance. Of course, those of you who were here during that work he has done in his lifetime. He is of a generation of men time will remember it. For those of you who were not here, we and women who served in the war, built lives and careers had a little dispute over a piece of legislation which would give afterward and who went on to contribute so much to their $6,000 in accommodation allowance to senators. Then, of course, communities. the Canadian public went absolutely nuts, and we had to gather back here to change our minds. In Duncan’s case, he built an excellent legal reputation in Winnipeg and still found time to volunteer his efforts on a Dunc, of course, took this matter extremely seriously because number of fronts, including the political scene, for which the this was a big issue and he had just arrived here. We should have Conservative Party is eternally grateful. His fund-raising work is known from that speech what kind of a senator Duncan would legendary but more important was the way he handled his tasks, make. always in a gentlemanly manner. This made him unique. He told us last night at his farewell dinner that the late Sally Honourable senators will remember that Duncan had only Thoraldson first got him involved in politics. Of course, anyone been here a month when he made that speech. Those of you who who has followed this illustrious Icelander cannot help but be a are new senators, as I was at the time, will remember how smart and successful guy. Duff Roblin then got Duncan helping intimidating this place can be. In his speech Duncan told us how him. Once “Premier Duff” got his hands on you, you were he had prepared to make his remarks. As reported at page 3740 hooked. I know this from personal experience because he of the Debates of the Senate, he said: brought my entire family into public life, too. Since the vote was taken on June 23, 1993, I have read a The rest is history in Duncan’s case. His work and his list of material respecting the role of senators in Canada. I reputation grew. He finally came to the Senate after many years have perused the applicable sections of the Parliament Act of public and private service, one of Brian Mulroney’s superb of Canada respecting sessional allowances and expenses for appointments. senators and members of Parliament. I have read reports of the two commissions held by virtue of section 68 of the It is important for us to tell retiring colleagues that they are valued, and to celebrate their contribution to the work we do. I Parliament of Canada Act dealing specifically with the doubt many senators have done as much in five years as Duncan adequacy of payment to members of the House of Commons Jessiman has done. He has worked diligently and given and to senators, namely the report of the commission to completely of his time and energy to the job and the many reduce salaries of members of the House of Commons and committees on which he has served. senators, chaired by William C. Clark and 1640 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

Colleen Campbell, the former members of Parliament At the end of it, our greatest accomplishment as fellow Tories referred to by Senator Prud’homme. Then the commission to is that we turned Dunc into a real partisan, or as much of a review allowances of members of Parliament was chaired by partisan as Dunc could be. He must have been mortified during Honourable Gerry St. Germain, now an honourable my private harangues against the Grits, against their character, their sexuality and their very souls. Dunc would listen in his senator....Their report was tabled in the House on October 13, own, quizzical way. You know how he always seems so intent on 1989. what you are trying to say. I was swearing and yelling at Grits, and he probably thought I had lost my mind, as I switched from I compiled a summary of what the members of the House my tirade to my friend from Saskatchewan, who was, of course, of Commons and senators received by way of sessional a prominent Liberal in the province. allowances and expense allowances from 1974 to 1993 inclusive and also referred back to 1945 as well. As I said last night at our caucus farewell, my friend Dunc is In this summary, I have included the special living a great life. He has served his country in war. He has $6,000 accommodation allowance recommended by the served his party as a volunteer, countless hours over 30 years. He St. Germain commission.... has survived fatherhood. He has raised a great family and been a good husband, which is the greatest tribute. He has been a He went on to say: volunteer for numerous charities. He is the kind of man who called his late brother “my best friend.” I did not include in this summary of expenses a per diem Senator Jessiman is a successful lawyer. He is a businessman allowance of $13.50 given to members of the House of and he attacked his Senate responsibilities the same way. He sits Commons on April 1, 1993.... on five committees, all at one time. He attends them all and he is always prepared. I do not know where he finds the time. He then went on to talk about the $6,000 and, frankly, the history of the Senate. Dunc, I will say it again — my life has been made better and richer for meeting and coming to know you. I think the Senate (1440) has been made better by your presence, and our nation has been made better by your actions in this place. I wish you, Alix and all This is a man who is thorough. He went on to discuss the of your family the warmest and the best retirement, even though significance of the Senate and the important issues we should you are not really retiring. study. He was just getting started. Then he did not get to finish because his time was up. I wish you the very best and a healthy and long life, Senator Jessiman. Senator Jessiman is a real gentleman, as you all know. On one occasion he uttered a classic line. The Speaker had risen to tell Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! him that his time had expired, and there were fierce denials to his request to continue. He said: “I did not mention at the outset I Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government): would be some time.” Then he kept right on going, quoting the Honourable senators, as is obvious, the distinguished Deputy Supreme Court, and Senator Murray had to get up and cut him Leader of the Government, Senator Carstairs, was the official off because he wanted the vote to take place. That was the spokesperson for this side for obvious reasons, but I could not let Senator Jessiman of whom I first became aware. the moment go by without saying a few words about my friend Senator Duncan Jessiman. Shortly after I met Senator Jessiman in 1994, he was telling me in caucus that he did not think it right that senators did not Senator Stratton referred to him as “the man” in Progressive have a right to vote down a government bill. The senators did not Conservative politics in the Province of Manitoba. “The man” is have the prerogative to defeat a bill passed by elected members. wearing appropriate colours today, in one of his many colourful Needless to say I was shocked. I had just met Mira, the socialist, jackets, in testimony of the colours of the party to which he has and Janis, the rebel, who had just helped defeat their own demonstrated such tremendous loyalty over the years. government’s bill in June of 1993. Luckily, I had met Senator Terry Stratton, so I did not think the whole province was nuts. Honourable senators, Duncan is a gentleman and a gentle man However, the Liberals seemed normal. I had met Senator Molgat. in every sense of the word. He has brought a lot of good cheer to this place and a lot of loyalty to this institution. He has been Senator Molgat, you seem very nice, and I hope that makes up constructive; he has been conscientious. He has been a tough for last week. negotiator. I know that firsthand because when I was Deputy Leader of the Government, I had to negotiate with Senator In the summer of 1995, I was appointed to the Pearson airport Jessiman on several pieces of legislation with respect to his committee with Senator Jessiman. Of course, I was his next door legitimate concerns about certain aspects of the legislation. This neighbour in the Victoria Building. In four months of working was done with the agreement of the leadership opposite, together, you get to know a guy. sometimes face to face and sometimes by long distance.

[ Senator Tkachuk ] June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1641

I served with Senator Jessiman on the Subcommittee on I thank Senator Jessiman very profoundly for his life and his Veterans Affairs under the chairmanship of Senator Jack life’s work, for his contribution to this country as a veteran of Marshall, with Senator Phillips and Senator Cools, with whom World War II and as a member of the navy. He was a lieutenant. we and others travelled to Prince Edward Island at one point. I should like to share with honourable senators the fact that I Alix, we had the enjoyment of your company on that particular learned a great deal about Senator Jessiman on the particular visit occasion as well. that we paid to Prince Edward Island. Senator Jessiman made it his business to explore what would become Confederation No one has demonstrated a greater knowledge of veterans’ Bridge. I was very touched by that. affairs in this place — along with Senator Marshall when he was here, Senator Phillips and others — as has our very We had dinner that night, and I learned a lot about Senator distinguished, departing colleague, Duncan Jessiman. He has Jessiman. Senator Jessiman spoke about his brother, now his late made a very significant contribution to this chamber. He has been brother, who was then quite ill. He spoke with special affection highly credible. Indeed, he has been a joy to work with. We will about that closeness. He spoke with great affection for his wife all miss him. We wish him, his wife, Alix, and their family many and family, his children and his grandchildren. years of happiness and good health. We will miss you very much, Duncan. I would also say to Senator Jessiman that it is frequently said that one can measure the worth of a human being by how he or Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! she treats those who serve them, their staff, their help. I have observed how well Senator Jessiman has treated his staff, dear Hon. Lowell Murray: Honourable senators, there are many Janelle Feldstein. reasons why I and other Progressive Conservatives owe a debt of gratitude to Senator Duncan Jessiman. His important contribution I should like to thank him personally for his contribution to the to the success of our party in times past made it possible for Veterans Affairs Subcommittee, and I should also like to thank many of us here and many in the other place to have served. Senator Jessiman on behalf of millions in this country for his However, I should like to say a word of appreciation to him contributions on the issues of child custody, access, and child today in my capacity as Chairman of the Standing Senate support. I would especially add to that the issues concerning Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology. grandparents. I know that thousands of grandparents in this country feel much warmth and affection towards Senator Since the beginning of this Parliament, our committee has Jessiman. been engaged in discussions of a complex and sensitive area — the child support guidelines brought in following the passage of I thought that I could best pay tribute to Senator Jessiman by Bill C-41 last year. Senator Jessiman’s contribution to the reading him one of my favourite poems. This is the poem deliberations of that committee on that subject have been Invictus. It was written by William Ernest Henley, and I dedicate incomparable. It occurred to me that if the committee had to this to Senator Jessiman: engage outside counsel of the quality and experience of Senator Jessiman, we would need a much bigger budget. His mastery of the law and of the jurisprudence in this area is extremely Out of the night that covers me, impressive. The care and conscientiousness he brings to his work Black as the Pit from pole to pole, is exemplary. I am well aware, and other senators have indicated I thank whatever gods may be this, that he has made a similarly high quality contribution to at For my unconquerable soul. least four other committees here in the course of this Parliament. I personally am most grateful to Senator Jessiman for his wise In the fell clutch of circumstance and generous counsel as a member of the Standing Senate I have not winced nor cried aloud. Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology. I am sure Under the bludgeonings of chance I speak for all members of the committee in telling him how My head is bloody, but unbowed. highly we appreciate his leadership and how greatly we will miss him. Beyond this place of wrath and tears Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! Looms but the horror of the shade, Hon. Anne C. Cools: Honourable senators, I, too, rise to pay And yet the menace of the years tribute to Senator Jessiman. I should like to join with the very Finds, and shall find me, unafraid. kind remarks of all the other senators. It matters not how strait the gate, I should like to begin by observing that Senator Jessiman is wearing royal blue, which I think is quite suitable for the How charged with punishments the scroll, occasion today. I would also add that I had the opportunity to do I am the master of my fate; a television interview with Senator Jessiman when he was I am the captain of my soul. wearing that same royal blue jacket. It went very nicely with my hair. Senator Jessiman, I thank you for being the captain of your soul. 1642 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

In closing I would like to say, Senator Jessiman, especially thought that they were appearing in front of a committee of the from me to you, from a Liberal senator to a Tory senator, thank House of Commons where they could simply pass through and you for your contribution to issues on behalf of the children of say goodbye. When they appeared in front of a committee of the this country, on behalf of mothers and fathers and grandfathers Senate and started being questioned, first, by the very able and grandmothers of this country, in your upholding of the Senator Forest, they were speechless. After that, a senator I did principle that all children, even when they are children of not know, Senator Chalifoux, began to question the witnesses. divorce, are entitled to the love, support and affection of parents, They could not believe it. I leave it to you to think of what both mothers and fathers, and of grandparents, both happened when Senator Cools began to question on the details. grandmothers and grandfathers. I thank you very personally for At the very end, Senator Orville Phillips, who we all know to be that, Senator Jessiman. a wise, old man, was just following everyone. Then came Senator Jessiman, with his legal mind. He was astute, diligent, In closing, I can see Senator Jessiman’s wife, Alix, sitting in incisive. At the end of the day and at the end of the week, there the gallery, whom I have met on occasion, and I wish her well. I was not much left of the witnesses. say to Senator Jessiman farewell, au revoir, hasta la vista, ciao. I shall miss him: Senator Jessiman, good soldier, good husband, This is what I learned from him: to be precise, to be direct, to good father, good grandfather, good boss, good friend, and good come to the point. Those who know me know that I can take a senator. long time to come to the point. [Translation] Some Hon. Senators: No! Hon. Gérald-A. Beaudoin: Honourable senators, Senator Senator Prud’homme: Why not say openly what most of you Duncan Jessiman is retiring today. He has been with us for only think privately? five years. Having said that, I do not want you to think that because my In that short time, he has left his mark on the Senate and on speech is short, my devotion and affection for Senator Jessiman several committees: the Standing Committee on Legal and is diminished. I wish him the best. Constitutional Affairs, where he was truly in his element, and other standing and special committees, where his expertise and For those of you who would like to know more about him, I many years of experience were put to good use. suggest that you listen to an interview he gave to CPAC. I A common law lawyer by training, he was interested in learned so much. I learned things I did not know. I learned how comparative law. He asked me more than one question about the to do things better. He did it on behalf of the Senate. laws of Quebec and its Civil Code. He was always open to new concepts. [Translation] We thank him warmly for his many contributions to the Senate Senator Jessiman, I wish you wonderful times with your and wish him a happy retirement with his family, who are here family and the health to enjoy them. You are always welcome to today listening to the tributes being paid by both sides of the come back and visit us. My office is right by the entrance to the chamber. Senate — I do not know whether that is because they want me to leave or to come in — and it will always be open to you. Our colleague is returning to private practice. We wish him much richly deserved success. Ad multos annos. [English] [English] Hon. John G. Bryden: Honourable senators, I will be very brief. One of the things that I need to say is long overdue. I wish Hon. Marcel Prud’homme: Honourable senators, I am to offer an apology, not to Senator Duncan Jessiman but to waiting for an Oxford dictionary so I can use the best words that Mrs. Jessiman. Mrs. Jessiman, if I had it to do over again, I the English language can offer us. While I wait for the dictionary, would give him a copy of that letter. I will say that I regret very much the departure of Senator Jessiman, and I will say two words on it. During the Pearson inquiry, Senator Jessiman — who I might say brought a great deal of civility to that raucous bunch of I do not know some senators very well, as you only get to partisans on the other side — came to me one day and said, with know honourable senators when you work with them. Senator perhaps a small measure of exasperation: “My wife doesn’t like Cools just spoke about Senator Jessiman and the subcommittee, you.” That took me by surprise, because I had never met and I could not believe it. I wish all honourable senators could Mrs. Jessiman. Then Senator Jessiman went on to say: “She have been there to see how, with his legal mind, he dealt with the thinks you should have given me a copy of that letter; that it was bureaucrats who appeared. All of them, I will almost swear, unfair of you not to show me a copy of that letter.”

[ Senator Cools ] June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1643

I cannot recall offhand what the document was that I had in This has been a bit overwhelming, in any event. I wish to my hand during that hearing, of which I only had one copy and thank everyone who did speak. My thanks to all of you. I should refused to show to Senator Jessiman. However, if I had to do it like to mention a few with whom I have worked over the five over again, Mrs. Jessiman, I would certainly show him a copy of years that I have been here, and although it has been a busy time, that letter, and I apologize for not having done so at that time. it has gone very quickly for me.

The other occasion on which I worked with Senator Jessiman I thank my family for coming here today. They have been very was on the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and supportive. My children always say that I am so soft and teary Constitutional Affairs, dealing with the drug bill. The question that I would cry at commercials, so I will pause there for a was not whether or not we were supposed to be legalizing moment. marijuana. However, as more and more witnesses came before the committee, Senator Jessiman, as you have heard, became Honourable senators, I have been very fortunate in that when I essentially an advocate for a position about which he came to arrived here, I had no secretary. Actually, strangely enough, my feel quite strongly. He has become probably the leading secretary in Winnipeg came to me and said she wished to come advocate, perhaps, of a new movement in the Senate because of with me. I did not know why, but she did. Fortunately, someone his championing of the legalization of marijuana. in the PC Canada Fund with whom I had worked, phoned me and said that his wife was looking for work and was working for Perhaps you are leaving us too soon, Senator Jessiman, another senator; would I interview her. Her name is Donna Lock. because, as some of you may know, there are those who have She came for an interview and I discovered that she was a said that our institution, up to now, tends to run on alcohol, wonderful lady. I hired her on the spot. However, because she Geritol and nytol. With you as our advocate, Senator Jessiman, knew my tenure was for only five years, after a year she had an perhaps in the future we could be running on Java, Viagra and opportunity to go elsewhere, and she left. I was devastated at the chutzpah. time because she really was very efficient.

Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! Ms Lock recommended a young lady by the name of Janelle Hon. Orville H. Phillips: Honourable senators, I should like Feldstein. I look down, because that name “Feldstein” is difficult. to briefly join in the tributes to Senator Jessiman. I wish to I have called her everything from “Feldsted” to “Feldstood.” She express particular appreciation for the fact that he gave up a has done a great deal of work for the Tories, she is always week in Florida last January to come back and participate in our working, and just the other day, when Elsie Wayne was thanking committee hearings on the future of the War Museum. her, she got the Janelle right but she sure messed up the Feldstein. A number of senators have referred to the fact that he served in the navy. I may be embarrassing Senator Jessiman by telling this With respect to Janelle, I would not have been able to do story, but he did not intend to serve in the navy. He was attending anything without her. She is more than a secretary. She was the University of Manitoba and had intended to join the air force engaged as a secretary, but she is actually an assistant. We have and then study dentistry. Being from the prairies, he knew that always used the research facilities of the Senate and the Library the air force wore blue. However, a navy recruiting officer came of Parliament. On the odd occasion we have used a researcher, on the base, and he was wearing blue. Senator Jessiman got the but most often Janelle has been able to research many of the blues mixed up. He joined the navy instead of the air force, and things that I have come out telling everyone I know about. Of then had to study law after he was discharged. course, she has looked it up at my request and given me a number of the answers. She has been a tremendous help to me. I hope, Senator Jessiman, that you will have a very happy retirement and that you will keep your blues straight in the Before I go through the number of people with whom I have future. worked, I must say, first, thank you to Brian Mulroney for my appointment. It did not come as soon as I wanted it, nor was I Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! appointed as soon as many told me that I would be.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, this is one of (1510) those occasions when the Speaker would like to speak but, as Speakers do not speak, I call on the Honourable Senator Duff was appointed first. That was before Mulroney had Jessiman. anything to do with it. Honourable senators may not know this, but Mr. Trudeau said, when one of the senators on the Hon. Duncan J. Jessiman: Honourable senators, thank you Progressive Conservative side was retiring, that he would appoint very much. I was having lunch with my family at noon today, a PC senator. Joe Clark was in opposition and Mr. Trudeau and my wife asked me, “How long do you think this will take?” wanted five names. Joe Clark gave me a call and said I was one and I said, “Well, it starts at two o’clock and I think we will be of those names, which was very nice and I still have the letter. I out of there by 2:30. I do not think there will be many who will was really fifth on the list. Anyway, Duff Roblin got that speak.” appointment. 1644 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

After that, I did a lot of work for the party. There is no I should like to mention my seat-mates. My first seat-mate was question about that. I was very close to all the premiers of Len Gustafson, and Len has become a good friend. I am Manitoba, starting with Duff and continuing with Walter Weir impressed by how much he knows about agriculture. He is and Sterling Lyon, and the leader, of course, Sidney Spivak. I always talking about it and he has almost convinced me that the was very close to Sidney on a number of occasions, particularly Wheat Board has a place. He has not quite convinced me yet, but when Duff tried to become the Prime Minister of Canada or he is close. leader of our party. Then I sat on occasion — at least his seat was there — with Anyway, I did work a lot for Brian, in 1975 and 1976, and Michael Pitfield, and I found him an interesting person. When he certainly from things he had said to me I thought at the time that was sitting there I knew there would be a vote because it seemed if he ever became Prime Minister, I would probably be the that he only turned up — oh, sorry, he is here today. second one he would call — not the first, because I thought the first would be Janis Johnson. Janis, as you know, was Mrs. Frank How are you, sir? Moores, and certainly Frank Moores and Janis worked very hard for Brian. It was not to be. Mira was very nice when she got her On the first three or four votes, he voted in favour of the appointment. I called her to congratulate her and she said, as she Liberal side, but there were a couple of occasions when he did said yesterday, “I did not ask for it.” She was appointed and then not, and I was happy to see that. He is a very intelligent fellow Janis was appointed and then Terry was appointed and I was, as and I enjoyed the occasions we did speak. Senator Carstairs said, about ready to give up. As it worked out, it has been five years of a wonderful life for me, and, looking My seat-mate today is Terry Stratton. Terry has been a friend back at it, the appointment came at a very good time. for quite a while. He convinced me that I should join him in opposing gun control. I am from the city, as all of you know. I I am retiring now, but I am not retiring with an obscene was not so opposed to it but I did join Terry and some others. I pension, as Senator Murray referred to when he spoke on the was surprised, really, at how incensed some of the people in the retirement of Senator Doyle. That was not my choosing, but that country are with regard to this gun legislation. Terry spent a lot is the case and no one can say that I now have that. of time working on that, and we certainly have heard both sides I would like to speak about the leadership on our side. When I of that issue. first came to the Senate, Lowell Murray was our leader and Bill Kelly was the whip for about a year. Lowell frightened me a I wish to say a few words about our Speakers. There was little. Shortly after I was appointed, I worked with some of the Guy Charbonneau when I first arrived. I had known Guy for a in-house Senate counsel on a speech about reform of the Senate. very long time because he raised funds in Quebec about the same I had given that speech to Lowell, and he just dismissed it and time or a little after I was doing the same job in Manitoba. wondered what the heck would I, a junior senator, know about how it should be reformed? I have now been here for five years Then there was Roméo LeBlanc, whom I found to be very and I am still of the same mind, and I want to speak about that a much a gentlemen. little later. Of course there is our present Speaker. For years before I was Our leaders, after Lowell and Bill retired from their offices, appointed to the Senate, I would see him on a plane and he would were John Lynch-Staunton, Eric Berntson, Noël Kinsella, Mabel ask, “Well, do you think you are going to be appointed this DeWare and Norm Atkins. I would just like to spend a few year?” And I could not say, yes, but I was still trying. Some have minutes talking about John Lynch-Staunton. I have found him a said — and Mira Spivak is one of them — “I never asked to be most able person. At some point I thought perhaps it was his appointed,” and she did not but she was. However, I asked to be assistant who was so able, but he has not had that assistant for a appointed and I finally got it. Our honourable Speaker has couple of years and John has done just as well in his absence. always been a friend. He lived on the same street as I did in Winnipeg for a very long time, and I have always considered him We did well — certainly the results were good — on the a very good friend. Pearson airport hearings, but I want it on record, from our side, that without our leader, John Lynch-Staunton, behind the scenes (1520) we would not have produced those tremendous results, and I thank you for that, John. Allow me to say a few words about the leadership on the other side. I only had a short time with Mr. Royce Frith. Others on our He has been very kind to me in many of the things that I asked side of the house found him somewhat difficult. I did not have to do. I thank him along with Lowell and Mabel, who is a good that much to do with him, but I recall one occasion when the friend of mine and sat on committees with me, and I will talk committee on which we were sitting was studying a proposal to about that a little later. change the name of a society, something that required the consent of Parliament. He was not very knowledgeable about the Senator Kinsella is inheriting my secretary and he will be well organization, while I happened to know something about it, and looked after. he seemed to listen when I spoke. I found him friendly.

[ Senator Jessiman ] June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1645

Senator Fairbairn is a wonderful, gentle and efficient lady. I like it to be that I have persuaded honourable senators to consider was most impressed with the manner in which she carried out her setting up a committee to study this very serious problem. It is duties. She was always very kind. I appreciated her reaction not something that can be done in a short time. It will be a big when we tried to change laws. I hope she thought that what we and very important study. were doing was right, because I think it will bear some fruit. I thank her for that. I believe that the Senate can do it, and that honourable senators should start. It will not be popular with all Canadians, The present leader, Senator Graham, may not remember this, but you must study this subject. I believe that if possession of but the reason I argued so strenuously in that famous speech that marijuana were dealt with as a health issue, rather than as a I never completed was that I had read the arguments of Senator criminal offence, we would be better off. Graham. It made sense to me, as it still does, that we should have received that $6,000. However, I am retiring, and I am not asking I attended the committee hearings in Newfoundland on that that be done retroactively. Term 17. I am told by our good senator from Newfoundland that that initiative is working well. I believe it was wrong to impose Senator Carstairs is a wonderful lady. She was a wonderful the majority’s will on a minority. However, if it is working well, neighbour, albeit on the opposite side of the fence. When I was that is fine. Nevertheless, I do think it was a bad precedent to finally appointed, I received much nicer remarks from our pass a law modifying the Constitution of Newfoundland. I hope Liberal leader in Manitoba than from our Tory leader. I thank that that will not be a precedent in Canada for future changes to you, Sharon, for that. any Constitution which would affect minorities. I was a member of the Senate Committee on Legal and I also sat on the committee on fisheries. That was almost as Constitutional Affairs. I thank Senator Murray and Senator bad as my joining the navy. In Manitoba, we have perch, Lynch-Staunton for putting me on that committee. Nathan pickerel, goldeye, speckled trout, rainbow trout, and many other Nurgitz, a long-time senator, suggested that I would enjoy being fish. I learned a great deal in the Fisheries Committee, first under a member of it, and I certainly did. the chairmanship of Senator Rossiter and later under the chairmanship of Senator Comeau. I had many discussions with our first chair, constitutional expert Senator Beaudoin, about that aspect of the law. I learned The Fisheries Committee has not travelled much, but we have much from him. However, I was surprised that the next chair was learned a lot through teleconferencing. This little lawyer from not a lawyer — and now it has happened twice. That chair was Winnipeg has learned about weir nets, purse-seines, individual Senator Carstairs. Initially, I was unsure whether she was up to quotas, individual transferable quotas, enterprise allocations, the task. I can say now, in all sincerity, that she did a tremendous total allowable catch, total allowable commercial catch, quota job. management areas, inshore fishing, offshore fishing and all the different kinds of gear and sizes of boats. It was a learning Senator Milne is now chairing that committee. Unfortunately, I exercise for me. have not been able to attend as many meetings as I would have (1530) liked, due to the other committee work that I have been doing. We do have a problem. They are now getting into individual I would like to say a word about the war on drugs. I was at a transferable quotas, and whether or not there are certain rights NATO assembly in Spain last week. We were given a briefing by they can sell. They are looking at New Zealand. We have not people involved with international crime. The amount of crime is arrived at an answer yet, but I am sure the committee will unbelievable, and they told us that about 50 per cent of it is eventually and properly advise the government. related to drugs. I should like to mention the Standing Senate Committee on We must find the answer to this worldwide problem. I believe Social Affairs, Science and Technology. I was a member of its that we are fighting this problem in the wrong way. I am not an Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. I also attended meetings of advocate of legalizing anything in the way of drugs today. the committee when it dealt with the Divorce Act. That was the However, I strongly advocate that anyone caught in possession of first year in which Senator DeWare was the chairman. We had a a drug such as marijuana has not committed a criminal offence. problem with Bill C-41, and I think our interventions improved We simply must do something about that. the bill. Some Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! Regarding the Divorce Act, I want to say two things. One regards the definition of “child of the marriage.” We found that Senator Jessiman: The committee recommended, and the the courts have changed what that term meant from when it was Senate agreed, that there should be a joint committee of the first placed on the books, in particular as it concerns a child of Senate and the House of Commons to study drugs. That was the marriage who is over the age of majority. If you are living never put in place. If I accomplish only one thing here, I would with your wife and your family, you have no legal obligation to 1646 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998 your children after they come of age. However, if you separate and save money, and it was well worthwhile. I wish that committee one parent has the custodial care of the children and the other is very much success. the non-custodial parent, the courts have interpreted the term I wish to thank the staff here in the Senate, including the Clerk “child of the marriage” to include children who are over the age of of the Senate, Paul Bélisle; the Assistant Clerk, Richard Greene; majority who are disabled or sick. The words “or other cause” are Dr. Gary O’Brien, Director of Committees and Private also found in the definition. The courts have interpreted “or other Legislation Branch; the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, cause” to mean higher education. Mark Audcent, and his assistant, Deborah Palumbo.

There is no one who would complain that once the parents I have one final suggestion regarding whether the Senate separate they are still responsible financially for a sick or should be reformed and, if it should be reformed, how it should disabled child. We see situations now of children who are as old be reformed. I have given honourable senators a paper on the as 30 years of age and who are attending university not in the subject. I am still of the view that senators should be appointed. city in which their parents live but in another city. Still, in some However, if members of the Senate have to be elected, it is my cases, the non-custodial parent has to continue to pay. That is view that those who run for election must have certain wrong. That was never intended to be the case and it should be qualifications. One needs certain qualifications to become a changed. judge. They are appointed and they become independent. It appears as if the public will insist on the same thing for the Senate. If that is the case, I say we must have a quadruple-E There is one other thing I would like to suggest as far as Senate. Senators must be entitled. It can be equal, either by grandparents are concerned. Although grandparents do have the province or by region. It can be elected, if it has to be. Then it right to apply for access to their grandchildren, they have to will be effective. To be effective, it should not have the right to make two applications to the court. In Quebec, they have it right. defeat a bill of the House of Commons. However, it should have They have a section in their act which actually recognizes the the right to suspend it for at least 13 months. rights of grandparents. I suggest that honourable senators, at some point, get the government to change the Divorce Act on I thank each and every one of you. It has been wonderful. I those two counts. will miss you all and I love you.

As I said, I was a member of the Subcommittee on Veterans Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! Affairs, first under Jack Marshall, who was a wonderful gentleman. He got me involved. When I first arrived here, even though I am a veteran and proud of it, I really did not appreciate [Translation] as much about veterans as I do now. I think they are a wonderful lot of people. They deserve all the help they can get. The subcommittee was chaired by Jack Marshall, Lorne Bonnell and, SENATORS’ STATEMENTS of course, Senator Phillips. It was a great experience for me. I enjoyed working with all the members of the committee, in THE SENATE particular when we studied the issue of the Canadian War Museum. Senators Prud’homme, Chalifoux, Cools, Kelly and PERCEPTION OF SENATORS AS PROJECTED BY MEDIA Forest were also members of the committee. We had some success there. We were fortunate and we have to give credit to Hon. Lucie Pépin: Honourable senators, the end of the school Senator Phillips. When we started, I did not think we would get year is not even here and already last week Le Soleil was handing very far. However, we turned that situation around in a week, and out report cards to unruly Senate pupils. it was work well worth doing. As always happens at report card time, some students are As honourable senators know, I was also a member of the happy, and some less so. As always, the teacher seems to favour Special Senate Committee on the Pearson Airport Agreements, some students over others. chaired by Finlay MacDonald, who I found difficult at times. He Teacher Bellavance, who does not appear to be gifted in was our chair and on many occasions he would not allow me to mathematics, judges his Senate pupils strictly on their attendance ask questions. The deputy chairman was Senator Kirby. The at regular meetings of the Senate. other members of the committee included Senators LeBreton, Tkachuk and Lynch-Staunton. The quality of the work done by a senator matters not. There is not even any mention of his or her contribution to Canadian I also worked on the Special Joint Committee of the House of political life. The time spent by a senator in committee in Ottawa Commons and the Senate on Child Custody and Access, or in various regions of the country is not taken into co-chaired by Senator Pearson. I had an enjoyable trip from consideration. Meetings with constituents in their districts should Toronto to Montreal on the train. I had not been on a train for simply not be held, because they unfold away from the camera’s about 35 years. It was the senator’s idea that we take the train to lens and the journalist’s penetrating gaze.

[ Senator Jessiman ] June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1647

If we are to believe the article that appeared in Le Soleil, the specific missions in the vast field of Quebec history and culture. unruly senators do not exist, do not work and do not produce He was the author of some 40 articles in the Dictionary of except when a hurried and myopic eye is able to detect their Canadian Biography, of which he was co-director for 25 years. I names on the Senate’s official attendance lists. think he shared the job with Professor Creighton of the University of Toronto. Honourable senators, it seems to me that a journalist who clumsily dons the garb of critic in order to justify his attacks on I say co-director, because it was a vast undertaking shared by an institution in which he does not believe should first take Laval and the University of Toronto. The 14th volume came out another look at his own performance. last week, I believe, and it describes the lives of the most important people in Canada’s history from 1534 to 1910. The Several of the attendance figures he gives are inaccurate. 14th volume goes up to the year 1910. A volume appears every decade or so. Second, the journalist turned school commissioner shows us how easy it is to arrive at the conclusions one wants when one This man built bridges between the provinces of Canada. Jean does not take the time to do thorough and decent research. was a good, simple and generous man, who survived great personal trials during his period of intensive academic In conclusion, honourable senators, the journalist who, through production thanks to his courage, his optimism and his faith. negligence and ignorance, makes no reference to whole areas of duties and responsibilities that fall to senators simply does not To his wife, Huguette, and to his children, I pay my respects. make the grade. [English] Mother Superior concludes that, like those who did not work hard when we were in grade school, young Bellavance will have to repeat the year and as punishment he will have to put up with HEALTH us again next year! TRIUMPH OF TOBACCO LOBBY—CONTINUATION OF ADVERTISING AND SPONSORSHIP FOR SPORTS EVENTS THE LATE JEAN HAMELIN Hon. Donald H. Oliver: Honourable senators, I do not smoke, TRIBUTE and I am opposed to anything that encourages our young children Hon. Roch Bolduc: A few weeks ago, honourable senators, to smoke. It was, therefore, a disappointment to learn that Health Laval University lost one of its most eminent professors, the Minister Allan Rock has caved in to the tobacco companies. historian Jean Hamelin. As Jean Létourneau of Princeton wrote, They will now have an additional five-year opportunity to hook and I quote: young Canadians on smoking. Instead of implementing on October 1 the tight restrictions on More reserved than Léon Dion and Fernand Dumont, as a sponsorship plans in last year’s Tobacco Act, our health minister civic-minded intellectual, Jean Hamelin nevertheless played a will allow unrestricted tobacco sponsorship of events for a full role just as important as those of his colleagues in science two-year period. Only then will he begin to phase in partial and academia. restrictions over an additional three-year period. The full ban will not be imposed for five years. During his 34 years as a university professor, he educated dozens of historians. He helped 42 students obtain their master’s As Dr. Victor Dirnfeld, President of CMA, noted: degree, 34 of whom went on to become PhDs. He spent many nights reading and correcting theses and many days guiding Tobacco is a poison. There is no rationale except for students. political considerations for a five-year grace period. During this period, 500,000 Canadian children will start to smoke. He was intimately involved in the development of Laval University during that period of great upheaval. He even wrote While some will claim that this is a victory for organizations that its history. receive tobacco funding, the real winner is the tobacco lobby. He was a member of the Royal Society of Canada and the The Canadian Tobacco Manufacturers’ Council has already recipient of the Governor General’s award, the Order of Canada indicated that they view the Tobacco Act as unconstitutional, and and the Ordre du Québec. The honours did not change my friend that the proposed ban will be targeted in a court challenge. Allan Jean, who remained a simple man. Rock has handed them a five-year opportunity to fight his proposed full ban on tobacco advertising. Both health activists He published a number of works on Canada’s and Quebec’s and the tobacco lobby agree on one point: The sponsorship ban history, which were all well received by the academic scheduled for 2004 is unlikely to stand up to industry pressure community. He headed a number of organizations with very over the intervening years. 1648 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

The health minister’s decision to phase in a full tobacco ban “There’s no necessity to make a reassessment of this puts the concerns of the tobacco lobby ahead of the health of issue.” Canadians. In The Ottawa Citizen of this morning, we read: Tobacco companies have known for years about the damage their products have inflicted, and they have hidden the evidence Chinese police have detained nearly two dozen dissidents of that damage. Today, we know that 90 per cent of life-long in recent weeks in a campaign to prevent commemorations smokers are addicted before they turn 18 years of age, and that of the bloody crackdown on Tiananmen Square. tobacco use kills about 40,000 Canadians every year. Tobacco-related disease costs our health system In spite of the tragedy that was Tiananmen, Canada continued about $3.5 billion per year. The health minister was wrong to to support China without any real criticism of that country’s give in to the tobacco companies. unending human rights abuses. The thirst for trade has overcome our professed repugnance for the lack of democratic freedoms Allan Rock is quoted in The Ottawa Citizen today as saying: and democracy. This is deeply regrettable. I can tell you with 100 per cent certainty what the policy of For all of us who believe in freedom of speech, for all of us this government is today. who believe in human rights, today is a day of reflection — reflection on forgotten commitments to speak out, reflection on Honourable senators, the problem is not what he knows today, lost opportunities to push for change. but what he will do tomorrow. (1550) CHINA Honourable senators, today is also a day to honour those who were shot and those who were trampled by the tanks, so that NINTH ANNIVERSARY OF TIANANMEN SQUARE MASSACRE others may one day live with dignity and safe from tyranny. Hon. Consiglio Di Nino: Honourable senators, I rise today to remind us of one of modern history’s darkest days, the June 4, UKRAINE 1989, massacre in Tiananmen Square. Today marks the ninth anniversary of that massacre. Still vivid in our minds are the SIXTY-FIFTH ANNIVERSARY OF FAMINE scenes of blood and scenes of fires as thousands of Chinese Hon. A. Raynell Andreychuk: Honourable senators, the students were killed, arrested and imprisoned preparing to ask for Ukrainian Canadian community is commemorating the greater democratic freedom. Their peaceful demonstration was sixty-fifth anniversary of the 1932-33 man-made snuffed out by troops with bullets and tanks. Their words and famine-genocide in the Ukraine engineered by then Soviet leader speeches were swept away by the bitter winds of repression. Joseph Stalin in which some 7 million Ukrainians perished. Soviet party leaders, with the aid of military troops and secret Thanks to modern technology, the actions of those brave men police units, were used to seize every last scrap of food. Whole and women did not go unnoticed. Around the world, millions of villages became a mass of corpses. Large parts of the Ukraine people watched and marvelled as a courageous young man stood were blockaded. No food was allowed in; no people were fast before an advancing line of government tanks. It was a allowed out. heart-stopping moment, one which represented the triumph of the spirit of democracy over repressive, brute force. You would think While guarded warehouses were filled with grain, Ukrainian after nine years that the Chinese authorities would at least start to peasants were beaten, arrested and even shot for trying to take a understand. few remaining kernels lying in the fields of the collective farms. Their extermination was a matter of state policy. Let me read to you from two recent articles. The first is from the South China Morning Post of Wednesday, June 3, 1998. It Honourable senators, food is still a favourite weapon with reads as follows: many authoritarian regimes in the world today. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Therefore, “On the political disturbances in 1989, China’s let us join members of the Ukrainian community and other Communist Party and Government have made a correct Canadians in ceremonies across Canada this month by conclusion,” said Foreign Ministry spokesman remembering the atrocities of this crime against humanity. Zhu Bangzao.

[ Senator Oliver ] June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1649

[Translation] Application Rules, the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act, the Canada Pension Plan, the Children’s Special Allowances Act, the Companies’ Creditors Arrangement Act, the ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Cultural Property Export and Import Act, the Customs Act, the Customs Tariff, the Employment Insurance Act, the CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACT Excise Tax Act, the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, the Income Tax Conventions Interpretation Act, the BILL TO AMEND—REPORT OF COMMITTEE Old Age Security Act, the Tax Court of Canada Act, the Tax Rebate Discounting Act, the Unemployment Insurance Act, Hon. Pierre Claude Nolin: Honourable senators, I have the the Western Grain Transition Payments Act and certain Acts honour to present the eight report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs on Bill S-11. related to the Income Tax Act, has examined the said Bill in obedience to its Order of Reference dated Tuesday, May 12, Thursday, June 4, 1998 1998, and now reports the same without amendment, but with observations which are appended to this report. The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs has the honour to present its Respectfully submitted,

EIGHTH REPORT MICHAEL KIRBY Chairman Your committee, to which was referred Bill S-11, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act in order to add (For text of observations, see today’s Journals of the Senate, social condition as a prohibited ground of discrimination, p. 770.) has, in obedience to the Order of Reference of Tuesday, March 17, 1998, examined the said Bill and now reports the The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this same with the following amendment: bill be read the third time? 1. Page 2: Delete clause 3. On motion of Senator Carstairs, bill placed on the Orders of the Day for third reading at the next sitting of the Senate. Respectfully submitted, PIERRE CLAUDE NOLIN ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE Acting Chairman SUPERANNUATION ACT

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this BILL TO AMEND—REPORT OF COMMITTEE report be taken into consideration? Hon. Lowell Murray: Honourable senators, I have the honour On motion of Senator Nolin, report placed on the Orders of the to present the ninth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Day for consideration at the next sitting of the Senate. Social Affairs, Science and Technology which deals with Bill C-12, to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police [English] Superannuation Act. Thursday, June 4, 1998 INCOME TAX AMENDMENTS BILL, 1997 The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science REPORT OF COMMITTEE and Technology has the honour to present its Hon. David Tkachuk, Deputy Chairman of the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, presented NINTH REPORT the following report: Your Committee, to which was referred Bill C-12, An Act Thursday, June 4, 1998 to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act, has, in obedience to the Order of The Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Reference of Thursday, April 30, 1998, examined the said Commerce has the honour to present its Bill and now reports the same without amendment. TWELFTH REPORT Respectfully submitted,

Your Committee, to which was referred the Bill C-28, An LOWELL MURRAY, P.C. Act to amend the Income Tax Act, the Income Tax Chairman 1650 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this general administration committee, held in Ouagadougou, bill be read the third time? Burkina Faso, on April 16 and 17, 1998. On motion of Senator Carstairs, bill placed on the Orders of [English] the Day for third reading at the next sitting of the Senate. FOREIGN AFFAIRS INTERNAL ECONOMY, BUDGETS AND ADMINISTRATION NOTICE OF MOTION TO AUTHORIZE COMMITTEE TO MEET DURING SITTING OF THE SENATE TWENTIETH REPORT OF COMMITTEE PRESENTED Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the Hon. Bill Rompkey: Honourable senators, I have the honour Government): Honourable senators, on behalf of Senator to present the twentieth report of the Standing Committee on Stewart, I give notice that on Monday, June 8, 1998, he will Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration regarding a move: committee’s budget for the fiscal year 1998-99. That the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs Thursday, June 4, 1998 have power to sit at 4 p.m. Tuesday, June 9, 1998, even though the Senate may then be sitting and that rule 95(4) be The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets suspended in relation thereto. and Administration has the honour to present its TWENTIETH REPORT QUESTION PERIOD Your Committee has examined and approved the budget presented to it by the Standing Committees on Foreign CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION Affairs for the proposed expenditure of the said Committee for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1999 for its Special PERCENTAGE OF MINISTER’S PERMITS ISSUED Study on Canada’s Relation with the Asia Pacific Region. TO CONVICTED CRIMINALS—GOVERNMENT POSITION Professional and Other Services $ 9,400 Hon. Donald H. Oliver: Honourable senators, I have a Transportation and Communication 7,300 question for the Leader of the Government in the Senate. On All Other Expenditures 500 April 30, 1998, the Minister of Immigration released a report on TOTAL $17,200 the number of minister’s permits permitted in 1997. Of 4,059 permits issued, 37 per cent were for individuals who were Respectfully submitted, criminally inadmissible to Canada. Can the minister explain why this government is assisting criminals to enter Canada and should WILLIAM ROMPKEY we not be taking steps to keep them out? Chair Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government): The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this Honourable senators, this is a matter of serious concern. I shall report be taken into consideration? be glad to ask the minister responsible for an explanation. On motion of Senator Rompkey, report placed on the Orders of (1600) the Day for consideration at the next sitting of the Senate. Senator Oliver: As a supplementary question: In response to [Translation] a written question which I submitted and to which I received a response, the department indicated that permits were issued to 36 people convicted within the last 10 years of an offence that INTERNATIONAL ASSEMBLY appeared to be equivalent to the various forms of assault OF FRENCH-SPEAKING PARLIAMENTARIANS described in the Criminal Code, and that were punishable by more than 10 years imprisonment. Two permits were issued to REPORT OF CANADIAN SECTION AND FINANCIAL REPORT people convicted within the last 10 years of an offence that fits OF MEETING HELD IN OUAGADOUGOU, BURKINA FASO the description of sexual assault. In both cases, the individuals had received suspended sentences and terms of probation. They Hon. Pierre De Bané: Honourable senators, pursuant to also submitted evidence of having completed probation. rule 23(6), I have the honour to present to the house, in both official languages, the report of the Canadian section of the Can the minister indicate whether this is the type of person we International Assembly of French-Speaking Parliamentarians, should be welcoming to Canada? Is this how we make Canadian and the financial report of the meeting of the IAFSP political and streets safe for our children and our grandchildren? June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1651

Senator Graham: Again, I appreciate the concerns of Senator Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government): Oliver. I must seek more information from the minister Honourable senators, I, too, was caught off guard when I saw the responsible. article in question in today’s edition of the Halifax Chronicle-Herald. As a matter of fact, I went directly to the LOSS OF JOBS FOR CANADIAN SAILORS ABOARD OFFSHORE Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to express my concerns. FOREIGN SEISMIC VESSELS—EFFECT OF RECENT LEGISLATION—GOVERNMENT POSITION I should like to make it very clear to Senator Forrestall, and to all honourable senators, that the legislation and the regulations Hon. J. Michael Forrestall: Honourable senators, I direct my have not changed. Questions obviously have arisen regarding the question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate. There is interpretation of existing policy. As you can appreciate, matters a major story in today’s Halifax Chronicle-Herald: such as these that arise from time to time are very complex. They have far-reaching implications. Hundreds of Nova Scotians and Canadians have been shut out of lucrative offshore jobs after the federal I assure Senator Forrestall and all honourable senators that this government suddenly changed employment and is something that the minister has instructed her officials to immigration rules Tuesday. review on a most urgent basis. The new ruling allows foreign seismic vessels, which Senator Forrestall: Permit me to express my warmest collect oil and gas data from the ocean floor, to leave appreciation, not just for myself but for the men and women who Canadians out of the running for jobs.... are affected by this situation. Government officials involved with enforcing the I would ask the leader to have the minister indicate, either regulations were also caught off-guard... directly through him or by a statement from herself, why it was possible for someone to say: “It came as a surprise,” Glen Knapp, a spokesman for the federal Department of Human Resources foreign workers The change was made in Ottawa and took effect 2:30 p.m. section, said Wednesday. Tuesday. Mr. Knapp said that he can no longer go to the large seismic That sounds very definitive, as if someone got an order, contractors and insist or urge that Canadians have jobs on these time-stamped 2:30 p.m., saying, “Sorry, boys, no jobs in the oil vessels. and gas offshore for you this year, or into the foreseeable future.” Mr. Mathers, who is an industry spokesman, said that it is This situation has caused enormous anxiety, as the minister unbelievable. obviously suspects. Because of that, I appreciate all the more his alertness and his immediate action. “...It is going to have a devastating effect on offshore workers,” said Harry Mathers, secretary of Reliance Senator Graham: I am just as concerned as Senator Forestall Offshore Canada Inc. of Halifax. “That’s the offshore and other honourable senators from that particular area, and I blown.” ... assure you that I will pursue the matter further later this day, as soon as I have the opportunity. It is to be hoped that we can bring This summer is expected to be the busiest in years for forth a favourable decision. seismic activity off the coast, with five companies applying for work.... Senator Forrestall: I would say to the honourable minister: Look particularly at Bill C-19. Reliance Offshore has a data bank of some 2,000 experienced Canadian sailors who should have those jobs. NATIONAL DEFENCE May I ask the minister if he would make some kind of an inquiry? If this move comes as a result of a section of the bill we AWARDING OF FURTHER CONTRACT WITHOUT TENDER— just passed with respect to maritime laws — and I am not sure EXPLANATION FOR SOLE-SOURCING—GOVERNMENT POSITION which it is, as I have not had time to go back and research this — we had asked specifically whether the clauses of that act, which Hon. Terry Stratton: Honourable senators, here comes allow the minister to exempt from these very provisions, would Bombardier again. The minister has the answer for this one, I am have a detrimental effect. We were assured that it would not. sure, because it was on the front page of The Globe and Mail this Now it apparently has, and it has happened behind the backs of morning: Bombardier consortium member, Frontec Corp., is the very public servants charged with administering that part of about to be awarded an untendered contract worth $550 million our offshore laws. to look after NORAD radar stations across Canada’s Arctic. 1652 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

I thought we were beyond the day when we did that kind of has been satisfied with the performance of the Frontec-PAIL joint stuff. Even in my previous business we now must tender, believe venture, and has extended their contract on a sole-source basis it or not. I suspect there must be some kind of explanation as to several times. why this contract was not tendered. We are talking here of a second contract, again not tendered, going again to Bombardier Part of the reason for this has been that, given that some of the or a member of the same consortium. north warning system sites are subject to the ongoing aboriginal land claims process, it make sense to award this contract to a Senator Lynch-Staunton: And again the same answer. firm which has chosen to partner with Inuit companies, as Frontec has done. Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government): Honourable senators, the contract in question is a maintenance Hon. Senators: Bravo! contract for the NORAD warning system. That contract is set to expire on March 31, 2000. Let me say that I am not as up-to-date AWARDING OF FURTHER CONTRACT WITHOUT TENDER— as Senator Stratton on some of these things, and was unaware POSSIBILITY OF PROFIT-SHARING WITH CONTRACTOR— that a final decision had been made on the contract. GOVERNMENT POLICY My understanding is that the Department of Defence officials Hon. Noël A. Kinsella (Acting Deputy Leader of the are considering extending the contract to the firm which Opposition): Honourable senators, my question is to the Leader currently holds it. It is a joint venture between an Alberta-based of the Government in the Senate. Is it the government’s policy firm, Frontec Corp., and a coalition of Inuit development that, when a sole-sourcing project is being examined, the companies. government does not consider the profitability of that project? For example, there was an examination of the profitability of the Hon. Bill Rompkey: I have a supplementary question. Is it the sole-sourcing project with Bombardier which was in the amount leader’s understanding that, in fact, this contract is already in of $2.8 billion. I am advised that, in industries such as that one, place; that what is being contemplated is a renewal of that the margin of profitability in normal business plans runs between contract, and that, in fact, the contract exists between 10 per cent and 17 per cent. Frontec Corp. and a consortium of all Inuit organizations in the Arctic? This is a joint venture. It is not Frontec per se; it is a joint Is it the government’s policy, when awarding a sole-source venture between that company and Inuit organizations in the contract of whatever magnitude, to include in that contract a Arctic. provision that there shall be some profit sharing between the corporation and the people of Canada? Senator Lynch-Staunton: Is this Jeopardy? Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government): Senator Rompkey: I would say that this arrangement has Honourable senators, I am not aware of any such policy. provided a great deal of training and employment to Inuit in my own area of Labrador and to other Inuit areas of the Arctic. There Senator Kinsella: Would the minister care to comment on is very little room for competitive bidding in this situation. whether or not such a policy might be in the public interest? Some Hon. Senators: Question! Senator Graham: It would certainly be a matter of public interest, and I would be pleased to take the suggestion of Senator Senator Rompkey: I would hope that the leader could take Kinsella to those who deal with such matters. this message to the government on behalf of the Inuit in the Arctic. Hon. J. Michael Forrestall: Honourable senators, I also have Senator Lynch-Staunton: This is like Jeopardy. Now you a question for the minister about sole-sourcing. Has he recently give us a question, Senator Graham. undertaken, on more than one occasion, to revisit the Aurora Life Extension Project? I know that the Nova Scotian team, who (1610) would eagerly go after that contract, would be the logical group to be awarded it, and I also know that they would be open to Senator Graham: I would assure honourable senators that discussions about returning some of the profits. At the least, they this is not a repetition of the questions asked on Bill C-19 would make their business plan available. yesterday, nor would I presume that I could stage things as well as Senator DeWare did yesterday. Senator Graham: Honourable senators, I certainly would not wish to admit a regional prejudice to such an award, but this is I was taken totally by surprise by Senator Rompkey’s something that I have discussed on numerous occasions, the last intervention, but it is quite accurate to describe this as an occasion being as recently as this morning. I have asked for extension of a contract. If it is extended it would be the extension further information; I have pressed for quick action; and I hope of an existing contract, because Frontec has competed for and that we shall have some positive results, again, in the not too won north warning system maintenance contracts before. DND distant future.

[ Senator Stratton ] June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1653

DELAYED ANSWERS TO ORAL QUESTIONS ANSWER TO ORDER PAPER QUESTION TABLED

Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the ENERGY—ATOMIC ENERGY OF CANADA LIMITED— Government): Honourable senators, I have a response to a CONFORMITY WITH ALTERNATIVE FUELS ACT question raised in the Senate on May 26, 1998, by the Honourable Senator James Kelleher regarding the Agreement on Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the Government) Internal Trade. I also have a response to a question raised in the tabled the answer to Question No. 87 on the Order Paper—by Senate on May 12, 1998, by the Honourable Senator Marjorie Senator Kenny. LeBreton regarding the solicitation of political donations. THE SENATE INDUSTRY OUTSTANDING ANSWERS TO ORDER PAPER QUESTIONS— AGREEMENT ON INTERNATIONAL TRADE—FAILURE PROVISION OF ANSWER TO SAME QUESTION TO HOLD OBLIGATORY ANNUAL MEETING OF COMMITTEE BY ANOTHER SENATOR—GOVERNMENT POSITION ON INTERNATIONAL TRADE—GOVERNMENT POSITION (Response to question raised by Hon. James F. Kelleher on Hon. John Lynch-Staunton (Leader of the Opposition): May 26, 1998) Honourable senators, I again wish to address to the Leader of the Government in the Senate a question about delayed answers. I Will the leader explain why his government has failed to wish to introduce a new element which increases my frustration ensure there was an annual meeting in 1997, and can he and annoyance that questions which have been on the Order advise us of the date of the committee’s next meeting? Paper now for over six months remain unanswered. While the original intent was to hold a meeting of the I will address Question Number 82, which stands on the Order Committee on Internal Trade once a year, the Ministers Paper in my name, dated November 19, 1997. Part of the question asks how much certain law firms were paid by the responsible for Internal Trade felt it was more appropriate to government for work related to the Airbus file. That question convene these meetings as required — in other words, as remains unanswered. The same question was asked on March 18 significant proposals were put forward and agreement was of this year to Treasury Board Secretariat officials during a reached amongst the parties. National Finance Committee meeting on the Supplementary Estimates (B) 1997-98. Yesterday, the answer, dated June 2, was Will he (Senator Graham) advise when we (the Senate) distributed during the meeting of the committee. The same will receive an annual report that covers the rest of 1996 and question which remains unanswered here for six and a half 1997? Will his government undertake that, henceforth, these months was answered within two and a half months by Treasury annual reports will be issued each and every year and tabled Board Secretariat officials following a request by a member of on a timely basis in the Senate? the National Finance Committee.  The annual report on the Agreement on Internal Trade The question is obvious: Can the Leader of the Government in covering 1996-97 has been prepared and will be issued the Senate explain why information sought by a senator in this once it has been approved by Ministers responsible for chamber has yet to be provided six and a half months later, while Internal Trade, which will likely be in the fall. the same information sought by a senator at a committee hearing was provided less than two and a half months later?  The intent of the Committee on Internal Trade is to produce an annual report and to make it available to the Senator Kinsella: Good question. public in the fall following the fiscal year-end. Hon. B. Alasdair Graham (Leader of the Government):  The 1997-98 annual report will also be available by the Honourable senators, that is an excellent question, and I am fall of this year. embarrassed to say that I cannot provide an answer. I am glad that the honourable senator has raised the point and that he has TREASURY BOARD brought forth evidence that will provide further ammunition to my arsenal which I will use even more forcefully on those who SOLICITATION OF POLITICAL DONATIONS FROM LIST are responsible for providing the answers to those questions. OF GOVERNMENT GRANT APPLICANTS—STATUS OF EMPLOYEE INVOLVED—SENSITIVITY OF MINISTERIAL STAFF ON ISSUES— Hon. Lowell Murray: Honourable senators, may I be GOVERNMENT POSITION permitted to provide a further amount of gunpowder, if you like? (Response to question raised by Hon. Marjory LeBreton on If Senator Lynch-Staunton had put that question forward as a May 12, 1998) private citizen under Access to Information, and assuming there had been no exemptions invoked by the government, that Mr. Jacques Roy is still employed with Treasury Board. information would either have been forthcoming or the 1654 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998 commissioner under Access to Information would have been I call upon the Speaker to enforce that rule in particular, pressing very hard on the government and the responsible minister pursuant to his responsibilities to enforce the Rules of the Senate to provide the information. Believe me, the government and the of Canada. responsible minister would have provided the information. Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! My point is that, surely, parliamentarians, members of the The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I thank Senate or, for that matter, the House of Commons, should not be Honourable Senator Kinsella for raising this issue. I can assure inferior to or back further in the queue than anybody else in the honourable senators that it was not at my request that he do so, I country who puts forward an Access to Information Request. Are would acknowledge that adherence to the rules would add to the we to be obliged to go through the Access to Information route decorum of the Senate. Frequently, even when we have guests in when we have a right, as parliamentarians, to put these questions the galleries, we do not demonstrate proper decorum. on the Order Paper and expect timely answers? I presume it is the request of honourable senators that, Senator Graham: I could not agree more with Senator henceforth, I remind the chamber of that rule if necessary. Murray. Perhaps it is a route that I, as Leader of the Government in the Senate, should try myself. Out of frustration I should try Hon. Senators: Agreed. the office of the Commissioner for Access to Information. [Translation]

ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET IMPLEMENTATION BILL, 1998 SECOND READING THE SENATE On the Order: NON-ENFORCEMENT OF CERTAIN RULES—POINT OF ORDER Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Hon. Noël A. Kinsella (Acting Deputy Leader of the Senator Bryden, seconded by the Honourable Senator Opposition): Honourable senators, I rise on a point of order to Pearson, for the second reading of Bill C-36, An Act to draw to the attention of members of this chamber that, recently, implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in in my opinion, there has been some slippage of the enforcement Parliament on February 24, 1998. of three of the Rules of the Senate. Hon. Jean-Claude Rivest: Honourable senators, while (1620) Canada is a beautiful country in many respects, sometimes the governance of our federal system results in unseemly actions for The first rule I will address is rule 18(5), which states: which all Canadians unfortunately pay the price. When the Speaker rises, all other Senators shall remain That is my first reaction as well as that of many Canadians to seated or shall resume their seats. a bill that comes out of nowhere to establish the Canadian Millennium Scholarship Foundation. When the Speaker rises, if we are on our feet, we must sit down. All Canadians across the country, and in Quebec in particular, I would ask honourable senators to keep that in mind as I refer fully appreciate the enormous difficulties facing our education to rule 16 which describes how we are to adjourn this chamber. system. We know that, at every level, there are problems to be The Deputy Leader of the Government proposes the adjournment addressed, which are amplified to some extent by the scarcity of motion and the Speaker then rises. When the Speaker rises, financial resources available to governments to meet all according to the rule I just read, all senators should be in their educational needs. seats. Yesterday, in the midst of all the commotion, the Speaker was unable to put the question on the adjournment motion. There These needs are well known. We all know that students in has been some slippage in respecting those particular rules. elementary and secondary schools lack supervision. Of course, all Canadians are concerned about dropouts. The bill seems to be The other rule I should like to mention is rule 19(1), which addressing one major problem, namely chronic debt, which speaks to the matter of the comportment of senators when a students face when they want to pursue post-secondary senator has the floor. The rule is explicit: No senator shall pass education. between the chair and the senator who is speaking. Yesterday, during our debate on Bill C-19, there was, in my view, not only We know that, mostly as a result of budget cuts, colleges and the lack of minimum respect for those engaged in the debate, but universities find it difficult to fund research, to fund excellence, a great conversation taking place with a senator standing not only in other words. All Canadian educational institutions are between the chair and the senator who was speaking, but with underfunded. Universities are understaffed and poorly equipped, that senator standing squarely in front of the Speaker. and research has been cut.

[ Senator Murray ] June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1655

These then are the problems being experienced in education, Problems in the education system can be found at the primary right from the primary school level up to the research level. All and college levels, in research and with equipment. The federal provinces and all Canadians are experiencing these problems. government just steps in dictating where the money is going to go. Financial resources are scarce. There have been problems, for reasons that are understandable to us, created by the urgent Honourable senators, I have to say the federal government’s necessity of making budget cuts, which governments have had to approach is all wrong. impose. The Canadian government has had to limit its transfer payments to the provinces. This has placed all of the provincial With regard to political fallout, the entire education sector, the governments in an extremely difficult situation and has forced PQ government and the Quebec Liberal Party led by Jean them to cut services, not only in education but also in health. As Charest, the former leader of the Conservative Party, all we know, all stakeholders in the education sector are calling on denounced this program. their provincial governments, which have exclusive jurisdiction in this area under the Constitution of Canada, to free up more The reality in Quebec is quite different. The province already money just to meet the minimal needs of the educational system has a program created in 1965 thanks to the Right Honourable at every level of government. The situation is the same in the Lester B. Pearson and the Honourable Jean Lesage. health sector. Before embarking on this project, did it ever occur to the Right Thanks to a welcome economic upturn in every part of the Honourable Prime Minister of Canada to inform Quebec of his country and to the reforms made by the federal government — intentions and ask for its support? No, there was no consultation particularly in job security and employment insurance — of any kind. additional amounts have been freed up. Watch what you are doing. You talk a lot about Lucien The federal government has announced that some $2 billion Bouchard these days. You shed very moving crocodile tears and change will be spent on scholarships that will be awarded urging Jean Charest to save Canada. You gave him your support. according to very specific criteria. It did not take into account all In fact, with this bill you are needlessly embarrassing the problems in the education sector. The logical thing to do Jean Charest, a champion of the Canadian option, and giving would have been to give back to all provincial governments Lucien Bouchard the opportunity to indulge in demagoguery some room to manoeuvre so that they could meet their concerning the way the federal system is working. This is totally constitutional obligations for education at all levels, in keeping irresponsible. with the specific needs of each educational system. The bill is supposed to meet the needs of students, but it is The scholarships just pop out of the woodwork and, which is aimed solely at undergraduates to the exclusion of graduate and even worse given the constitutional framework in which we doctoral students. We do not know what will happen to the latter; operate, with no consultation of any kind with anyone in the they are simply not eligible. field. No one anywhere in Canada — no teachers, students, college or university administrators — has been consulted. The Prime Minister tells us that the goal is to reduce student debt. First of all, the average student debt is lower in Quebec They found $2.5 billion for a student assistance project. In than in the rest of Canada. That is one difference. theory, no one should have anything against student assistance, but this project is totally artificial given the real problems we are If they want to reduce the debt of Quebec students, why not facing today in education. All Canadians, here in Ottawa and in consider other options? They could, for instance, turn the loans the provinces, are wondering what is the idea behind this project. taken out by students into scholarships, or perhaps forgive the present debts. I am not opposed to someone wanting to build a kind of monument to himself by putting his name on a project. President I have nothing against the federal government spending money Mitterrand built his library in Paris. Every politician is entitled to on education. I believe that, in this area, the responsibility of the this. They say this is the Prime Minister’s personal project. He Canadian government is to help decision makers give students has been in politics for 35 years and I think that, if he is planning across the country a chance to have access to knowledge, taking to retire, all Canadians will be grateful to him for 35 years of into account the fact that resources vary across the country. I competent and extremely useful service. He does not need such support this measure as long as things are done in accordance an artificial monument. with the Constitution. This must make sense. It seems to me that if the Honourable Prime Minister wanted Looking beyond the constitutional issue, I believe that people to do something significant in the education field, common sense in education should be consulted. There is not one single official would have him give to the provinces the money he has in Ottawa dealing daily with education. The experts are in the earmarked and let them decide how to distribute it in keeping provinces. They have the schools; they have the universities; and with their responsibilities and knowledge of the milieu. they have the departments of education. 1656 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

So, we will be artificially creating a whole new federal The fact that Quebec society is strongly attached to its bureaucracy. What will it do, for instance, when a student gets a exclusive jurisdiction over education is not an invention of scholarship? Let us take, for example, a scholarship recipient Lucien Bouchard or of nationalists or separatists. It goes back to who is studying abroad. The federal public servant, for whom we the birth of our country. will have created a job, will call the provincial department to find out the value of the diploma the student is getting from a foreign Read again what the Fathers of Confederation said on the institution: Can you give us an assessment? reason why the French-Canadians of the day accepted the federal system. The Constitution gave them full control over education. The provinces are the ones with the expertise in the field of Is this still the case? Is this still necessary? Honourable senators, education. What does the federal government think it can do in as a Quebecer and a Canadian, I say it is. this area? It is also quite ludicrous, since business will have a say in how the scholarships will be awarded. It does not make any As a federalist from Quebec, I would like to be able to say to sense to proceed this way. all Quebecers that this reality is understood and respected by all Canadians and by the government of this country. I would like to All students and teachers agree. Just to give you an idea, there say that the Canadian government respects the ability of Quebec, are all kinds of people in Quebec who agree. There is your good of each province, of the Department of Education in each friend, Lucien Bouchard, but also the student federation. There province, to understand the needs of the education sector and to are also the university administrators, the teachers and decide for itself what to do with federal funds in order to improve administrators of the cegeps and colleges in Quebec. the unions, its education system. This is the Canada we support, the Canada the chambers of commerce and the Liberal Party of Quebec. All we are talking about. Unfortunately, the proposed millennium of these people are opposed to this initiative, but the government scholarships would destabilize and discredit the federal system is still going ahead with it anyway. It knows what is good for the we all believe in and want to continue to support with arguments education community as a whole. and evidence that Ottawa sometimes understands. There is a serious question of irresponsibility with this project Hon. Gérald-A. Beaudoin: Honourable senators, Bill C-36, that has nothing to do with the real problems the education which establishes the Canada Millennium Scholarship community is facing. Foundation, highlights the famous federal spending power. I have chosen to say a few words on this power because I think that it is Hon. Fernand Robichaud: The federal government should not always well understood. make sums available to students who need financial assistance. [English] Senator Rivest: Did you go back to school recently, honourable senator? All students in Quebec are opposed to this In 1937, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council bill. They must know what their needs are! recognized the federal spending power. It is possible for the Senator Robichaud: They will refuse the scholarships. federal authority to spend money in fields that are not necessarily federal. Parliament, however, should be careful: to spend money Senator Rivest: Individually? Come on! It does not matter is one thing — no one objects to that; to legislate is another. That anyway. spending power has been used frequently in the last 50 years. The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I do not mean to A possible problem with the federal spending power is that it interrupt Senator Rivest’s speech. I think it would be better if may conflict with provincial priorities in the provincial fields of senators who want to make an intervention would stand up in legislation. It is a power recognized by jurisprudence which is their place. Otherwise, it is very difficult to have a debate. not very precise but has never been challenged by the provinces. Senator Rivest: I had an unruly student in front of me. One I remember the writings of Pierre Trudeau on spending power thing is for sure, if there are criteria to be applied, he will when he was at the University of Montreal, and of John Beetz, a certainly not get a scholarship. very important judge of the Supreme Court of Canada. We must act responsibly. I am really concerned not only about The provinces also have a spending power, and they use it. the administrative or bureaucratic consequences that such a bill They may use it to send delegations abroad. It is part of our can have on students, but also about the political consequences. modern federalism. Once again, a political problem has been created in Quebec and, of course, Lucien Bouchard and the PQ have seized this [Translation] opportunity to discredit the federal system. In Quebec, the federal spending power has fuelled many Those who fight here in Ottawa and in every other region in debates. Especially since 1950. It all started with Prime Canada to try and convince Quebecers that the federal system Minister St. Laurent and his successors, John Diefenbaker and makes sense and is good for Quebec can only be successful if the Lester B. Pearson, who provided federal assistance to federal system is respected. universities. Some of us will remember that, at first, universities

[ Senator Rivest ] June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1657 refused federal assistance, but since they needed help, they Perhaps some people will say, “We have tried but we did not subsequently made an arrangement with the federal government succeed.” We must try again. under Mr. St. Laurent, Mr. Diefenbaker and Mr. Pearson. [Translation] Then followed the joint program era and the Jean Lesage era. We must go back to the negotiation table. It is a major The opting-out formula that is much talked about dates back to problem. If we succeed, we could score important points for that period. What is this opting-out formula? It is a formula federalism in Quebec. I think that we must show creativity. designed under Jean Lesage which allows a province to withdraw from a joint program and to receive the money and use it as it Federalism will be judged by its fruits. We know how true that sees fit. is in Quebec. It could make the difference between independence and federalism. An election is not too far away in that province. In the present case, it is not a program as such but a I hope that the bill that will be sent to committee will be studied foundation. Notwithstanding the spending power, and I am in in this perspective and that we will be able to reach a favour of that because I think it is good in a federation, it seems compromise. I do not know what the committee will decide, but to me that an administrative arrangement must be reached. there are potential solutions and we must do all we can to succeed. [English] [English] If we have been able to succeed in this country with federal grants to universities and with the joint programs, there is no Hon. Lowell Murray: Honourable senators, our friend reason in the world that we should not succeed in the present Senator Phillips is the last of the Diefenbaker appointees to this case. chamber. I wanted to add a small historical footnote to the speech that Senator Beaudoin has just given. I think that federal states must sometimes show creative imagination. Education, after all, is a very important field for Federal grants to universities were indeed, in the case of each province, obviously, because it is part of the pact of Quebec, blocked because of the constitutional objections of Confederation, but it is also important for the entire country. Premier Duplessis. It was Prime Minister Diefenbaker who found a way to unblock the system, I think by way of tax points, if I am [Translation] not mistaken. To that footnote, I simply want to add that our old friend Senator Jacques Flynn, who was then a member of the I think that there may be some tentative solutions in clauses 28 other place, played a key role in that process which ended in an and 29 of Bill C-36. Clause 29 of the English version reads as agreement between the Diefenbaker government and that of follows: Premier Paul Sauvé of Quebec. [English] On motion of Senator Oliver, debate adjourned.

29. (1) If the Foundation is satisfied that it is consistent TOBACCO INDUSTRY RESPONSIBILITY BILL with its object and purposes to do so, the Foundation may enter into an agreement with a provincial minister THIRD READING—ORDER STANDS respecting On the Order: (a) criteria for the determination of financial need and merit; and Third reading of Bill S-13, An Act to incorporate and to establish an industry levy to provide for the Canadian (b) the provision to the Foundation of names of residents Tobacco Industry Community Responsibility Foundation. of the province who are determined under those criteria to — (Honourable Senator Murray, P.C.). be qualified to receive a scholarship from the Foundation Hon. Lowell Murray: Honourable senators, this order is and any supporting information that the Foundation awaiting a motion for third reading of Bill S-13. The order is considers appropriate. standing in my name because I presented the report as chairman of the standing committee. Perhaps the order could be put in the If there is one person who believes in federalism, I am that name of Senator Kenny, the sponsor of the bill. person, and I believe that the division of powers must be respected. However, we are no longer living in watertight The Hon. the Speaker: Is it agreed, honourable senators, that compartments of the Constitution, as was the case before World the order stand in the name of the Honourable Senator Kenny? War II. We are in the era of cooperative federalism. The solution to the problem in this case is, of course, to respect the division of Hon. Senators: Agreed. powers, but it is certain that an administrative arrangement would settle the question. Order stands. 1658 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

[Translation] the Honourable Senator Hervieux-Payette, for the second reading of Bill C-411, An Act to amend the Canada BILL TO CHANGE THE NAME OF CERTAIN Elections Act. ELECTORAL DISTRICTS Hon. Noël A. Kinsella (Acting Deputy Leader of the SECOND READING Opposition): Honourable senators, this bill will amend the Canada Elections Act. I wonder whether we could look at it from On the Order: a certain interesting point of view. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable [English] Senator Gigantès, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hébert, for the second reading of Bill C-410, An Act to Honourable senators, Bill C-411 is a Commons bill. It will change the name of certain electoral districts. affect the present procedure under which a number of people failed to get their documents in on time under the present act. Hon. Noël A. Kinsella (Acting Deputy Leader of the Opposition): Honourable senators, I would like to say a few It is important from time to time for us to ensure that words on Bill C-410. This bill is quite simple in that it merely parliamentarians in the other place recognize that Parliament is changes the name of several electoral districts. This kind of composed of three elements: the House of Commons, the Senate change is often initiated by a member of Parliament. and the Crown. When private bills come forward, the tradition has been that this house will give those bills expeditious Many members want the name to describe their riding consideration. accurately. In my area, for example, the riding of Charlotte includes York and Sunbury Counties, and a change in name is Honourable senators, after Senate bills are adopted by the desired to better reflect this geographical reality. Senate of Canada and received in the other place, I am sure that an examination of the track record on Senate bills introduced by We will support this bill. I hope it will pass second reading and individual senators will show that they receive not a great deal be referred to committee for further examination. more attention than a private member’s bill commenced by a member of the House of Commons. The only special The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I wish to inform consideration given a bill introduced in the Senate by an the Senate that if Senator Gigantès speaks now, his speech will honourable senator after its adoption by the Senate is a guarantee have the effect of closing debate on second reading of this bill. that it will receive first reading in the other place. It does not need to be put into the draw to receive first reading. However, Hon. Philippe Deane Gigantès: I have nothing to add. that is the only special consideration it receives. The Hon. the Speaker: You do not wish to speak? It is moved by Senator Gigantès that this bill be read a second time. Is it your Before us is a bill from the other place. With it is the pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion? expectation that we will give it expeditious treatment. I am wondering whether we are on a level playing field here. Some Hon. Senators: Agreed. Obviously, this bill is of great interest to many members in the other place. Perhaps we might capture their attention if we were Motion agreed to and bill read second time to give this private member’s bill the kind of study that many Senate bills, which have been passed by this place, receive in the REFERRAL TO COMMITTEE other place.

The Hon. the Speaker: When shall this bill be read the third [Translation] time? As for the substance of the bill, amendments to the Canada On motion of Senator Gigantès, bill referred to Standing Elections Act must always be studied carefully. Electoral reform Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs. plays a critical role in any democracy.

CANADA ELECTIONS ACT This bill deals with the time allowed for authorizing payment of certain claims by candidates and official agents. It amends the BILL TO AMEND—SECOND READING procedure in the event of failure to file an elections return. On the Order: At first glance, the bill appears to be a technical one and must be read in conjunction with the Canada Elections Act in order to Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable clearly comprehend the significance of the proposed Senator Robichaud P.C. (St-Louis-de-Kent), seconded by amendments. June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1659

We have always gone over proposed amendments to the addressed by the committee. There are also past decisions and Canada Elections Act with a fine-tooth comb and I am sure that past Senate policies. my colleagues will evaluate the soundness of the bill and tell us whether these amendments are necessary for the proper operation Before I speak about the report itself, it is important to share of our electoral system. I am sure that our colleagues in some information on the Upper House with Canadians. Were you committee will be able to carry out such an in-depth study. aware that, regardless of media reports, the Senate has more detailed attendance records than almost any other legislative The Hon. the Speaker: I must advise the Senate that, if assembly in Canada? It is also important for Canadians to know Senator Robichaud now takes the floor, his speech will have the that the Senate sits more often than the Alberta legislative effect of ending debate at second reading. Is it your pleasure, assembly, which sat 38 days in 1997, and the New Brunswick honourable senators, to adopt the motion? legislature, which sat only 32. The Senate had 65 sittings in 1997 because Parliament was dissolved after a general election was Hon. Senators: Agreed. called. Motion agreed to and bill read second time. [English] REFERRAL TO COMMITTEE Senators will see changes to the definition of “attendance.” The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this The recording of attendance, the administration of leave due to bill be read the third time? illness, the acknowledgement of committee service, and the increase in penalties for non-compliance with senatorial On motion of Senator Carstairs, bill referred to Standing requirements are new enforcement measures to be undertaken by Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs. the Clerk’s office. [English] In its fifth report, the committee has examined senatorial (1700) attendance. The remuneration of members of Parliament and senators is set out in the Parliament of Canada Act. A deduction PRIVILEGES, STANDING RULES AND ORDERS from the sessional allowance and the expense allowance of parliamentarians is included in the act for every day beyond the CONSIDERATION OF FIFTH REPORT OF COMMITTEE— 21 days which they do not attend the Senate or the House of DEBATE ADJOURNED Commons. It has been recommended that the penalty be doubled from $120 to $250; $60 from the senator’s expense account The Senate proceeded to consideration of the fifth report of the and — Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (attendance in the Senate), presented in the Senate on June 3, [Translation] 1998. And $190 in sessional indemnity, payable to senators. Hon. Shirley Maheu: Honourable senators, I move adoption of the report. As you know, in 1990 the Standing Committee on Privileges, Hon. John Lynch-Staunton (Leader of the Opposition): Standing Rules and Orders recommended introduction of an May we have an explanation? attendance register for senators to which the public would have access. This attendance register contains information on [Translation] senators’ attendance.

Senator Maheu: Honourable senators, I present to you the [English] fifth report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders concerning attendance in the Senate. The committee has made changes to the attendance record so [English] as to more accurately depict the workload we all share as senators. The register will contain five columns depicting Honourable senators, the Rules Committee has been given the attendance on a given day. The first column will depict whether mandate under rule 86(1)(f) to revise the existing rules which it was a day on which the Senate sat. The purpose of the second govern the Senate and its attendance regime. It has been an column is to record attendance to business which includes arduous task which has only just begun. The issue of attendance attendance at a sitting of the Senate, attendance at a meeting of a is much more complex than many critics realize. Senate committee authorized by the Senate to sit within the National Capital Region during a regularly scheduled sitting of [Translation] the Senate; participation in a delegation of a recognized parliamentary association conducting its business outside the Attendance comprises many different aspects: legislative and National Capital Region, again on a sitting day of the Senate; or, constitutional provisions are not the only points that have to be finally, attendance to official business. 1660 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

[Translation] We as a committee recommend that this register be implemented on July 1, 1998. I strongly feel, as do my “Attendance to official business” refers to participation by a honourable colleagues who have worked very hard throughout senator in activities which cannot be held at any other time than the process, that this register is fairer, more transparent and on a sitting, require the senator to absent himself or herself from comprehensive. Also, in this report we are recommending new the sitting, and: guidelines to provide as accurate a picture of senators’ attendance as possible, while minimizing the margin of error. (1) have been authorized by the Senate or a Senate committee; or One of these changes re requires that a direct copy of a statement on individual senators’ attendance be issued monthly (2) are in response to a request in writing from a federal to senators. Corrections must be returned to the Clerk’s office minister of the Crown to represent the government. within two weeks of the issuing of the reports. [English] Senators are now obligated to provide administration with a signed copy of their monthly attendance statement no later than The third column in the register will be reserved for the two weeks after receiving it. The signed statement is added to the recording of public business. senator’s individual monthly attendance register and becomes a public record. [Translation] [Translation] The fourth column is for justified absences for illness. In the present system, a medical certificate is optional. The proposed If a senator does not file a signed monthly attendance amendments will call for a mandatory certificate after six days of statement within the required time limit, the clerk will notify the absence, and a second certificate after 90 days. Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration. [English] [English] One additional change that has been made in this report is that upon written request from the Chair of either the Standing (1710) Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration or the Chair of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing I want to thank all members of the Standing Committee on Rules and Orders, a copy of a medical certificate shall be Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders, as well as both party submitted. caucuses for their comments and suggestions concerning this complex issue of amending the policy establishing the senators’ [Translation] attendance register. We have now issued a report on which there was a general consensus as to the recommendations we have put The last column is reserved for committee attendance. forward. If the Senate is not sitting one day, and you have committee I should note that we intend to continue our studies on issues meetings, your attendance will be recorded. On days when there relating to the attendance of senators. are three committees, attendance will also be noted. Honourable senators, the image of the Senate portrayed to [English] Canadians must be improved. Most senators are hard-working individuals. Many have developed areas of specialization in Under the new system, even non-committee members will be social, economic and cultural matters and actively promote accredited for attending committee meetings. awareness of the issues they care about. Our committees have played creative and influential roles on a wide variety of topics [Translation] and may have acted very much like royal commissions, except that they have cost less and acted faster. For example, if an independent senator attends a committee meeting, his or her attendance will also be recorded. [Translation] [English] I would like to thank those who took part in the discussions and in the preparation of this report. One further guideline that has been added in this report governing senatorial attendance is a list of three categories of [English] leave days. These are also known as non-accountable days. Leave days are provided mainly for bereavement leave, leave for I believe the adoption of this report will help to improve the family-related matters, including illness, or leave for religious image of our chamber and our ability to serve the Canadian holidays. public.

[ Senator Maheu ] June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1661

Hon. Lowell Murray: May I ask the chairman of the the chamber.” There is a category called “attendance to committee a couple of questions? business.” The committee has, in my quick reading, defined attendance to business fairly precisely. The committee has also Senator Maheu: Certainly. attempted to deal with the problem of absences due to illness and has codified the situation in that regard somewhat more precisely [Translation] than it had been.

Senator Murray: If I understand correctly, you said that the There remains, however, another category, and it is called sum to be deducted for an absence of over 21 days will be “public business.” I have discussed this in debate in this chamber $250 per day. Where is that in your report? I note in Appendix II before and I will not go into it now. However, it seems to me that that $600 is to be deducted from the sessional allowance. I public business is pretty much what any honourable senator says suppose that will come from expenses? How do you plan to do it is. I wonder why the committee did not address the question of that? “public business,” either to try to define it, if that is possible, or, if not to define it, then to put a cap on the number of times in a [English] year or a session that an honourable senator can invoke that Senator Maheu: The $60 that is missing will be deducted reason for being absent from his or her duties in Ottawa. from the expense allowance, which is part of the Parliament of Canada Act. We cannot change that without going into the act The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, the time period and introducing an amendment. The other $190 is up to $250. for Senator Maheu’s speech and questions has expired. Is leave granted to the extend the period? Senator Murray: You are proposing that we amend the Parliament of Canada Act in that respect. Where are you getting Hon. Senators: Agreed. the other $600? Senator Maheu: The committee did not come to any total Senator Maheu: It was not $600, it was $60. agreement on public business days. We took the issue of leave and absence as far as we could. We are looking at the authorized Senator Murray: Senator, you said $250 and you are days under the title of “business of the government.” We have increasing it here to $190. Am I missing something? defined the public business days as much as we can. It is official business, in other words. Senator Maheu: The total is $250, $190 plus $60. There is no $600. The $60 is from the sessional expense allowance. Senator Murray: Excuse me, senator. The report indicates that the column in the register entitled “public business” shall Senator Murray: You could remove that without having to — reflect attendance by senators to all public or official business not reflected in the attendance to business column. Therefore, public Senator Maheu: We can tighten up those figures, but we business will remain what it has been, subject to interpretation on cannot decrease them. It would take a change. the part of honourable senators; is that not the case?

Senator Murray: Is it $250 or is it $190? Senator Maheu: Perhaps it is. There is no change. Senators have a code of honour that they pretty much live by. I do not Senator Maheu: It is $190, plus $60. think we can put rules and guidelines on every single public Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the business item that we may or may not choose to use as a public Government): Perhaps I can clarify this issue. The total amount business day. will be $250. The present Parliament of Canada Act provides for a $120 penalty, $60 of which comes from the pay and $60 of Senator Murray: Was any thought given to proposing an which comes from the tax-free allowance. amendment to the constitutional provisions respecting attendance to the Senate? As I have remarked on a previous occasion, my We can make this change without an amendment to the layman’s view is that such an amendment could be passed Parliament of Canada Act and we can do it by regulation, unilaterally by ourselves and the House of Commons. It would increase the amount taken from pay. We cannot do it through the not require provincial consent. section in the Parliament of Canada Act with respect to the tax-free portion. The tax-free portion will remain at $60. Senator Maheu: We do not have a consensus on that However, the increase will go from $60 to $190 by way of approach and the issue was not carried any further than a cursory regulation and that will lead to a total of $250. look. Senator Murray: I thank the deputy leader for her [Translation] explanation. Hon. Eymard G. Corbin: You said that the Senate, of all the I have two other areas of concern. The committee has added a legislative assemblies in Canada, advocates the harshest penalties category which I would refer to as “permissible absences from for absent members. Are you including the House of Commons? 1662 SENATE DEBATES June 4, 1998

Senator Maheu: I said the Senate records the presence and If Senator Murray had not risen to propose the adjournment of the absence of senators. It alone does so in this Parliament. I the debate, I would have done so, because there are elements in think the House of Commons records members’ presence when a your presentation that deserve a more detailed examination. vote is held. Members sign an attendance form monthly. This register is not so assiduously kept as ours. Before we vote, I want to know what I am committing to. You are proposing to increase the fine imposed on senators for being Senator Corbin: The question that follows, perhaps not absent. What is the effect of a fine, or of a series of fines that logically but naturally, is: Is there any monitoring of the could amount to several thousands of dollars in a given year, on attendance of members in the House of Commons? a senator’s income tax? Will such fine be tax deductible? Will the senator be required to send a cheque, or will the fine be deducted at source? Have you thought about this? Senator Maheu: I could not tell you whether it is monitored or not. I am not sure I get your point. Senator Maheu: Perhaps I should start with the other place. We, through the Access to Information Act, could obtain the The members of the other place sign an attendance register House of Commons attendance records. These records are kept every month. I imagine the honour code applies there as it does from one session to the next, from one Parliament to the next. here. They are available, but I do not know where they are stored.

Senator Corbin: But our behaviour, here, in the Senate, is As for the $250 fine to which you referred, I do not know what based on honour if not honesty. We go much further, do we not, would happen from a tax point of view. Usually, one does not get than they do in the House of Commons? The senators’ record of a tax credit on a fine. For example, I do not think one can get a attendance and participation in the proceedings of this house, its tax deduction on a fine for running a red light. I presume this is committees and interparliamentary activities have been available the case, because we are talking about a fine. I cannot give you a to the public for many years. This register is available for precise answer. consultation in the office of the Clerk of the Senate. On motion of Senator Murray, debate adjourned. There is no such thing at the other place. Every member — as [English] I did when I served in the House of Commons — receives with his pay cheque a form used to certify he or she was in attendance on every sitting day, except for X number of days. As I recall, we HEALTH were required to state the reason for our absence, but I am not too sure about that. MOTION TO ESTABLISH NATIONAL REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGIES COMMISSION ADOPTED This sheet was then returned to the person in charge. On the Order: Journalists never ask any questions about this. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable In my 30 years on the Hill, journalists have never asked MPs Senator Lavoie-Roux, seconded by the Honourable Senator about this, except when a vote might be close. In general, the Keon: party would explain why a member was excused. That the Senate urge the Government of Canada and the So, there is no public monitoring of the MPs’ attendance Department of Health in particular to take action to record. Everything is based on an honour system, on a record of implement the following recommendations set out in the attendance that ends up gathering dust on a shelf in a storage Final Report of the Royal Commission on New room somewhere. I am not even sure that these records make it to the Public Archives of Canada. There is no control over these Reproductive Technologies, published in December 1993: documents. That the Federal Government establish a regulatory and licensing body, the National Reproductive I am not opposed to greater transparency. However, as I said Technologies Commission (NRTC), to oversee before, someone must pay the costs of increased transparency. It research, technologies and practices; and costs the Senate money to keep these records. That the National Reproductive Technologies I do not hear the media complain about the fact that it costs Commission establish committees which would be money to keep attendance records for senators. The fact is that responsible for regulating how services related this is not done in the other place, and I believe the provincial to reproductive technologies are provided.— legislatures use a different system to monitor absenteeism. (Honourable Senator LeBreton). June 4, 1998 SENATE DEBATES 1663

Hon. Marjory LeBreton: Honourable senators, as we As was stated by other speakers on this motion, this is not a approach the 21st century, society faces many complex issues partisan issue. This is an issue of concern to all Canadians and I that only a few years ago would have been considered to be in support and applaud the government for any action they take in the realm of science fiction. Hardly a day goes by when we are moving this issue forward. We should be and could be, as not forced to come to terms with the complexities of Canadians and as a Canadian government, world leaders on this reproductive technology, genetic altering, cloning, sex selection, issue. It becomes more pressing with each passing day. sperm banks, young women selling their eggs for financial gain, surrogate mothers, and all of the obvious moral, legal, and ethical The Hon. the Speaker: If no other honourable senator wishes considerations attached. to speak or to adjourn the debate, I shall proceed with calling the motion. (1730) It was moved by the Honourable Senator Lavoie-Roux, In my previous position in the office of the Prime Minister, I seconded by the Honourable Senator Keon, that the Senate urge was involved in the setting up of the Royal Commission on New the Government of Canada, and the Department of Health in Reproductive Technologies, in October of 1989. The commission particular, to take action to implement the following reported in December 1993. In the four intervening years, recommendations set out in the final report of the Royal thousands of Canadians were consulted in hearings held across Commission on New Reproductive Technologies, published in the country in 17 different centres. Inquiries, reports and research December of 1993. papers numbered in the hundreds of thousands. In its final report, “Proceed With Care,” it was stated that Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the Opposition): having children and healthy families are centrally important life Dispense. goals for most Canadians and that a caring society should help people attain these goals but always in the context of guarding The Hon. the Speaker: Is it your pleasure, honourable against larger harms, whether to individuals or to society. As senators, to adopt the motion? guardians of the public interest and on behalf of individual citizens, the federal government has a responsibility to prevent Hon. Senators: Agreed. harms. This means clear limits and boundaries must be placed around the use of reproductive technologies, and only ethical and Motion agreed to. accountable use of permissible technologies can be allowed within these boundaries. [Translation] A blueprint was set out as to how Canada, with its unique institutions and social make-up, could deal with new ADJOURNMENT reproductive technologies, regulate their use and ensure that future developments or use are in the public interest. The Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the commission called on the federal government to include the Government): Honourable senators, with leave of the Senate participation and commitment of provincial governments and and notwithstanding rule 58(1)(h), I move: many sectors of our society. That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand The reasons for such actions are compelling. The potential for adjourned until Monday next, June 8, 1998, at eight o’clock harm to individuals and the need to protect the vulnerable in the evening. interest of individuals in society are more pressing with each day. Implementing the blueprint will demonstrate that we care about The Hon. the Speaker: Is leave granted, honorable senators? each other’s well-being and recognize collective values with respect to the importance people attach to having children. At the Hon. Senators: Agreed. same time, it will ensure that only ethical and accountable use of technology is made, and demonstrate that Canadians have Motion agreed to. wisdom, humanity and compassion in the way they choose to use technology. The Senate adjourned until Monday, June 8, 1998, at 8 p.m. June 4, 1998 i 06/98 09/98 40/97 Chap. Chap. R.A. R.A. 98/05/12 98/05/12 97/12/18 3rd 3rd Senate 97/11/20 97/12/11 98/05/06 98/05/27 97/12/16 98/03/19 98/06/02 97/12/18 agreed to Commons amendments one one four none none three seven Amend. Amend. Report Report 97/11/05 98/04/02 97/12/12 97/12/04 98/02/24 98/05/28 97/12/17 whole 97/12/17 Legal and Commerce Commerce Committee Committee Transport and Transport and Foreign Affairs Communications Communications Committee of the Banking, Trade and Banking, Trade and Constitutional Affairs (SENATE) 2nd 2nd 97/10/21 97/10/21 97/10/22 97/10/29 97/12/12 98/05/12 97/12/16 GOVERNMENT BILLS GOVERNMENT BILLS (HOUSE OF COMMONS) Thursday, June 4, 1998 THE SENATE OF CANADA (1st Session, 36th Parliament) 1st 1st PROGRESS OF LEGISLATION 97/09/30 97/09/30 97/10/08 97/10/09 97/12/03 98/05/05 97/12/04 Title Title An Act toAccident Investigation and amend Safety Board Act the and to make a Canadian consequential amendment Transportation to(Sen. another Graham) Act An Act to amend theAct, Pension 1985 Benefits and Standards the OfficeFinancial of Institutions the Act Superintendent (Sen. of Graham) An Act(maritime liability) to (Sen. Graham) amendAn the Act to amend the Canada Canada EvidenceCriminal Act and Shipping the Code Act disabilities, to amend the in Canadian Human Rights Act in respect respect of persons with disabilitiesmatters and other of and to maketo consequential persons other amendments Acts (Sen. with Graham) An Act respecting depositorynotes bills and and depository to amendAct the (Sen. Financial Graham) Administration An ActCanada to and the Socialist implement Republicagreement of Vietnam, between an an Canada and agreementCroatia the Republic and between of athe convention Republic of between Chile, Canada fortaxation the and and avoidance the of prevention double respect of to fiscal taxes evasion on with income An Act toInvestment establish Board thePension and Plan Canada and the to Old Pensionmake Age amend Security consequential Plan Act amendments and the to to other Acts Canada No. No. S-2 S-3 S-4 S-5 S-9 S-16 C-2 ii June 4, 1998 01/98 37/97 05/98 38/97 36/97 98/03/31 97/12/10 98/05/12 97/12/10 97/12/08 98/05/14 98/02/25 97/12/10 98/04/01 98/05/28 97/12/10 97/12/08 five none none none none none none none 98/05/14 98/02/24 97/12/09 98/03/31 98/05/13 97/12/09 97/12/04 98/06/04 Forestry Science & Resources Commerce Commerce Commerce Technology and Natural Social Affairs, Transport and Agriculture and Communications Aboriginal Peoples Aboriginal Peoples Banking, Trade and Banking, Trade and Banking, Trade and Energy, Environment 97/11/27 98/02/26 97/12/16 98/03/26 97/12/02 98/03/25 98/03/26 97/12/08 98/04/30 97/11/25 98/02/18 97/12/09 98/03/18 98/03/17 97/12/09 97/12/02 98/04/28 97/11/19 Act respecting the imposition of duties of customs and other charges,International to give Convention effectCommodity to Description on the andprovide the Coding relief System, Harmonized againstduties to of the customs or imposition otherother charges, of to related provide certain for matterscertain Acts and in consequence to thereof. amend or repeal An Act to amendand the to Canadian make Wheat consequential Board amendmentsActs Act to other An Act respecting cooperatives An Act to provide forand an water management integrated in the system Mackenzie of to Valley, establish land certain boardsmake for consequential that amendments purpose to other and Acts to An Act toMarine establish Park theamendment Saguenay-St.Lawrence to and another Act toAn make ActGovernments a of respecting Canada and consequential relating the an to Yukon Territory thelegislative accord administration jurisdiction and in respect control between of of oil and An and the gas Act for makingcompetitive, the efficient system and of commerciallyproviding Canadian oriented, for ports theand establishing the divesting of of certain harbours portthe and commercialization ports, of authorities for the St. Lawrence Seaway and ferry servicesmaritime and trade other andPilotage matters transport Act related and and to amendingActs amending the as and a consequence repealing other An ActCanada to and implementCanada Sweden, a and aconvention between convention convention Canada the and between Kazakhstan, the between Republic a Republic of convention betweenthe Republic Canada of of Iceland and and aCanada convention Lithuania, between and a theavoidance of double Kingdom taxation and the prevention offiscal of evasion with Denmark respect to for taxesto on income the amend and theConvention Canada-Netherlands Act, IncomeStates 1986 Tax Tax Convention and Act, 1984 theAn Canada-United An Act toPolice amend Superannuation Act the Royal Canadian Mounted C-4 C-5 C-6 C-7 C-8 C-9 C-10 C-11 C-12 June 4, 1998 iii 32/97 39/97 08/98 07/98 04/98 33/97 35/97 34/97 97/11/27 97/11/27 97/12/18 98/05/12 98/05/12 98/03/31 97/12/08 97/12/03 97/11/18 97/11/27 97/12/17 98/04/29 98/04/28 98/03/31 97/12/08 97/12/03 — none none none none none none none none — 97/11/06 97/11/27 97/12/16 98/03/25 98/04/02 98/03/26 97/12/03 98/06/04 — whole Legal and Legal and Legal and Science & Commerce Commerce Technology Social Affairs, Transport and Transport and Foreign Affairs Communications Communications Committee of the Banking, Trade and Banking, Trade and Constitutional Affairs Constitutional Affairs Constitutional Affairs 97/11/05 97/12/11 97/11/26 98/06/03 98/02/24 98/02/18 98/05/28 98/03/25 97/12/04 97/12/03 98/05/12 97/11/18 97/11/25 97/11/26 97/10/30 98/05/05 97/12/09 98/02/10 98/05/26 98/03/19 97/12/02 98/04/28 98/06/03 An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act An Act to amend themake Canada consequential Shipping amendments Act to and other to Acts An ActInterpretation to Act amenddwelings) (powers the to Criminal arrest CodeAn and and Act to amend enter the the Telecommunicationsthe Act and TeleglobeDivestiture Act CanadaAn Act Reorganization to amend the Customs ActCode and and the Criminal An Act to amend the Canadaand Labour the Code Corporations (Part and I) LabourAct Unions Returns and toother make Acts consequential amendments to An Act to amend the Small Business Loans Act An ActProhibition of to the Use, Stockpiling, Implement Production and Transfer the of Anti-Personnel ConventionDestruction Mines on and the onAn Act their for granting tomoney Her Majesty for certain sums the of financial public year ending service March of 31,1998 CanadaAn for the Actcontinuation of to postal services provideAn Act to for amend theTax Income the Tax Act, Application theInsolvency resumption Income Act, Rules, and theChildren’s the Canada PensionCompanies’ Bankruptcy Plan, Special the Creditors and Cultural Arrangement Allowances PropertyCustoms Export Act, Act, the Customs Tariff, and the Act,Insurance Employment the Import Act, Act,Federal-Provincial the Fiscal the Arrangements theIncome Act, Tax the Conventions ExciseOld Interpretation Age Security Act, Act, the TaxCourt the Tax ofthe Canada Act, Act,Unemployment Insurance Tax Act, the the WesternTransition Grain Payments Act Rebate and certainto Acts the related Income Tax Discounting Act An Act to establish Act, the Parksto Canada amend Agency other and Acts the as a consequence C-13 C-15 C-16 C-17 C-18 C-19 C-21 C-22 C-23 C-24 C-28 C-29 iv June 4, 1998 02/98 03/98 Chap. Chap. R.A. R.A. 98/03/31 98/03/31 3rd 3rd 98/03/26 98/03/31 — — two one none Amend. Amend. — — Report Report 98/04/30 98/06/03 98/06/04 — — Legal and Legal and Legal and Legal and Legal and Science & Science & Energy, the Energy, the Technology Technology Committee Committee Social Affairs, Social Affairs, Environment and Environment and Natural Resources Natural Resources Constitutional Affairs Constitutional Affairs Constitutional Affairs Constitutional Affairs Constitutional Affairs 2nd 2nd 97/11/25 98/05/26 98/03/25 98/03/26 97/10/22 98/06/04 98/06/04 97/12/02 97/12/17 98/03/19 98/03/17 SENATE PUBLIC BILLS COMMONS PUBLIC BILLS 1st 1st 97/11/05 97/11/19 97/11/26 98/05/07 98/03/18 98/03/18 98/05/28 98/06/03 97/10/02 98/05/28 98/05/28 97/12/03 97/12/10 m authorship respecting a Title Title An Act respecting Canada Lands Surveyors An Act for granting tomoney Her Majesty for certain sums the of financial public year ending service March of 31, 1998 CanadaAn for Act for the granting tomoney Her Majesty for certain sums the of financial public year ending service March of 31, 1999 CanadaAn for Act the tobudget tabled in implement Parliament on certain February 24,An 1998 provisions of ActConstitution the to Act, 1867 amend the Nunavut Act and the An ActCopyright to Act. (profit amend fro crime) the (Sen. Lewis) Criminal CodeAn and Act the todistricts change the name ofAn certain Act to electoral amend the Canada Elections Act An Act tocommemorate the establish “Persons a Case” (Sen. National Kenny) Historic Park to An Act tocoercion amend in the Criminalperson’s medical Code religion procedures toinviolable probihit or that (Sen. Haidasz, P.C.) offend belief a thatAn human Actregulation) life (Sen. to Haidasz, is P.C.) amend the TobaccoAn Act Act to amend the (content Excise Tax Act (Sen. Di Nino) An Act to amend thein Canadian Human order Rights Act toground add of discrimination social (Sen. condition Cohen) as a prohibited No. No. C-31 C-33 C-34 C-36 C-39 C-220 C-410 C-411 S-6 S-7 S-8 S-10 S-11 June 4, 1998 v seven 98/05/14 Legal and Legal and Science & Technology Social Affairs, Aboriginal Peoples Constitutional Affairs Constitutional Affairs 98/05/06 98/04/02 98/03/31 98/06/02 98/02/10 98/02/26 98/03/25 98/04/02 98/05/12 An Act toprocess) (Sen. amend Cools) the CriminalAn Code Act to (abuse incorporate and of levy to establish an to industry Industry Community provide(Sen. Responsibility Kenny) for Foundation theAn Act Canadian providing fornations Tobacco of self-government Canada by (Sen. the Tkachuk) first An Act respecting theby declaration the of Governor royal General assent bills in the Queen’s name passed(Sen. to Lynch-Staunton) by theAn Act Houses tocriminal amend of harassment the Criminal and(Sen. Oliver) Parliament Code other respecting related matters S-12 S-13 S-14 S-15 S-17 PAGE PAGE

The Honourable Duncan J. Jessiman Foreign Affairs Tributes on Retirement. Senator Lynch-Staunton...... 1635 Notice of Motion to Authorize Committee Senator Carstairs...... 1636 to Meet During Sitting of the Senate. Senator Carstairs...... 1650 Senator Stratton...... 1637 Senator Gigantès...... 1639 Senator Johnson...... 1639 QUESTION PERIOD Senator Tkachuk...... 1639 Senator Graham...... 1640 Citizenship and Immigration Senator Murray...... 1641 Percentage of Minister’s Permits Issued to Convicted Criminals— Senator Cools...... 1641 Government Position. Senator Oliver...... 1650 Senator Beaudoin...... 1642 Senator Graham...... 1650 Senator Prud’homme...... 1642 Loss of Jobs for Canadian Sailors Aboard Offshore Foreign Senator Bryden...... 1642 Seismic Vessels—Effect of Recent Legislation— Senator Phillips...... 1643 Government Position. Senator Forrestall...... 1651 Senator Jessiman...... 1643 Senator Graham...... 1651

National Defence Awarding of Further Contract without Tender—Explanation for SENATORS’ STATEMENTS Sole-Sourcing—Government Position. Senator Stratton...... 1651 Senator Graham...... 1652 The Senate Senator Rompkey...... 1652 Perception of Senators as Projected by Media. Senator Pépin... 1646 National Defence The Late Jean Hamelin Awarding of Further Contract without Tender—Possibility of Tribute. Senator Bolduc...... 1647 Profit-Sharing with Contractor—Government Policy. Senator Kinsella...... 1652 Health Senator Graham...... 1652 Triumph of Tobacco Lobby—Continuation of Advertising and Senator Forrestall...... 1652 Sponsorship for Sports Events. Senator Oliver...... 1647 Delayed Answers to Oral Questions China Senator Carstairs...... 1653 Ninth Anniversary of Tiananmen Square Massacre. Senator Di Nino...... 1648 Industry Agreement on International Trade—Failure to Hold Obligatory Ukraine Annual Meeting of Committee on International Trade— Sixty-fifth Anniversary of Famine. Senator Andreychuk...... 1648 Government Position. Question by Senator Kelleher. Senator Carstairs (Delayed Answer)...... 1653

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Treasury Board Solicitation of Political Donations from List of Government Grant Canadian Human Rights Act (Bill S-11) Applicants—Status of Employee Involved—Sensitivity of Bill to Amend—Report of Committee. Senator Nolin...... 1649 Ministerial Staff on Issues—Government Position. Question by Senator LeBreton. Income Tax Amendments Bill, 1997 (Bill C-28) Senator Carstairs (Delayed Answer)...... 1653 Report of Committee. Senator Tkachuk...... 1649 Answer to Order Paper Question Tabled Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act (Bill C-12) Energy—Atomic Energy of Canada Limited—Conformity with Bill to Amend—Report of Committee. Senator Murray...... 1649 Alternative Fuels Act. Senator Carstairs...... 1653

Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration The Senate Twentieth Report of Committee Presented. Senator Rompkey... 1650 Outstanding Answers to Order Paper Questions—Provision of Answer to Same Question by Another Senator—Government International Assembly of French-Speaking Parliamentarians Position. Senator Lynch-Staunton...... 1653 Report of Canadian Section and Financial Report of Senator Graham...... 1653 Meeting held in Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso. Senator Murray...... 1653 Senator De Bané...... 1650 CONTENTS Thursday, June 4, 1998

PAGE PAGE

ORDERS OF THE DAY Canada Elections Act (Bill C-411) Bill to Amend—Second Reading. Senator Kinsella...... 1658 The Senate Referral to Committee...... 1659 Non-Enforcement of Certain Rules—Point of Order. Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders Senator Kinsella...... 1654 Consideration of Fifth Report of Committee—Debate Adjourned. Senator Maheu...... 1659 Budget Implementation Bill, 1998 (Bill C-36) Senator Lynch-Staunton...... 1659 Second Reading. Senator Rivest...... 1654 Senator Murray...... 1661 Senator Robichaud...... 1656 Senator Carstairs...... 1661 Senator Beaudoin...... 1656 Senator Corbin...... 1661 Senator Murray...... 1657 Health Tobacco Industry Responsibility Bill (Bill S-13) Motion to Establish National Reproductive Technologies Third Reading—Order Stands. Senator Murray...... 1657 Commission Adopted. Senator LeBreton...... 1663 Senator Carstairs...... 1663

Bill to Change the Name Of Certain Electoral Districts (Bill C-410) Adjournment Second Reading. Senator Kinsella...... 1658 Senator Carstairs...... 1663 Senator Gigantès...... 1658 Referral to Committee...... 1658 Progress of Legislation ...... i Canada Post Corporation / Société canadienne des postes

Postage Paid Post payé

03159442

If undelivered, return COVER ONLY to: Public Works and Government Services Canada — Publishing 45 Sacré-Coeur Boulevard, Hull, Québec, Canada K1A 0S9

Available from Public Works and Government Services Canada —Publishing Ottawa, Canada K1A 0S9