Eu Withdrawal) Bill

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Public Bill Committee IMMIGRATION AND SOCIAL SECURITY CO-ORDINATION (EU WITHDRAWAL) BILL Second Sitting Tuesday 9 June 2020 (Afternoon) CONTENTS Examination of witnesses. Adjourned till Thursday 11 June at half-past Eleven o’clock. Written evidence reported to the House. PBC (Bill 104) 2019 - 2021 No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the final version of the report should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Saturday 13 June 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 31 Public Bill Committee9 JUNE 2020 Immigration and Social Security 32 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chairs: †SIR EDWARD LEIGH,GRAHAM STRINGER † Davison, Dehenna (Bishop Auckland) (Con) † McDonald, Stuart C. (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and † Elmore, Chris (Ogmore) (Lab) Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) † Foster, Kevin (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of O’Hara, Brendan (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) State for the Home Department) † Owatemi, Taiwo (Coventry North West) (Lab) † Goodwill, Mr Robert (Scarborough and Whitby) † Pursglove, Tom (Corby) (Con) (Con) † Richardson, Angela (Guildford) (Con) † Roberts, Rob (Delyn) (Con) † Green, Kate (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab) Ross, Douglas (Moray) (Con) † Holden, Mr Richard (North West Durham) (Con) † Sambrook, Gary (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con) † Johnson, Dame Diana (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab) Anwen Rees, Committee Clerk † Lewer, Andrew (Northampton South) (Con) † Lynch, Holly (Halifax) (Lab) † attended the Committee Witnesses Jeremy Morgan, Vice Chair, British in Europe Professor Bernard Ryan, Professor of Migration Law, University of Leicester Jill Rutter, Director of Strategy and Relationships, British Future David Goodhart, Head of Demography, Immigration, and Integration Unit, and Director of the Integration Hub website, Policy Exchange Bella Sankey, Director, Detention Action Adrian Berry, Chair, Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association Luke Piper, Immigration Lawyer and Head of Policy, the3million Lucy Leon, Immigration Policy and Practice Advisor, The Children’s Society Ian Robinson, Partner, Fragomen LLP Alison Harvey, Barrister, No5 Chambers 33 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Immigration and Social Security 34 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill enough to modify rights under the withdrawal agreement. Public Bill Committee We entirely accept that in the explanatory note the Government say that they do not intend to have an Tuesday 9 June 2020 impact on our withdrawal agreement rights, but we are worried about that on two grounds, and the concerns (Afternoon) are twofold. First, as a constitutional issue it is wrong to create a [SIR EDWARD LEIGH in the Chair] power in a regulation that might breach an international treaty. If that is to be done, it should be done by Immigration and Social Security primary legislation after a proper debate. Secondly, and more practically, those social security provisions that Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill are listed in the Bill are right up there with UK immigration law for complexity. It is Byzantine complexity, and that Examination of Witnesses is no exaggeration. It would not be difficult for an Jeremy Morgan and Professor Bernard Ryan gave unintended breach to slip through. Therefore, to prevent evidence. a breach of a treaty by mistake, it is important that any such amendment be made through primary legislation 2.1 pm after a proper debate. The Chair: Good afternoon. This is the second evidence session, and it will be a mixture of people who Q65 Kevin Foster: Speaking as a Minister, a Minister are with us physically and people who are here cannot make a regulation that breaches international virtually, so we will have to cope as best we can. Our law, just to be clear on that point. Would you have first witnesses are a representative of British in Europe, concerns if, for example, an agreement on social security via audio link, and Professor Bernard Ryan. We have co-ordination was reached but the legislation did not until about 2.40 to take that evidence. I will go first of allow the Government to quickly implement it? all to the Minister, then to the Opposition spokesman. Jeremy Morgan: I am sorry, I am having great difficulty Is anybody else desperate to ask a question at the in hearing the question. moment? You can put up your hand and intimate to the Clerk that you would like to speak. The Chair: Minister, I think you need to lean in to the Those of you who are sitting at the back of the microphone and speak loudly. hall—you are very welcome, by the way—are equally members of this Committee. Apparently if you want to speak, you have to go to a microphone over there. Are Kevin Foster: A Minister cannot breach international we all happy to start the session? We have to ring our law in regulations. Would you have any concerns if the witnesses now, so please be patient. legislation, for example, did not empower a Minister to quickly implement an agreement in relation to social We are ready to start with our first panel of security co-ordination if one was reached with the witnesses. Thank you for coming today. This session European Union before 1 January? will have to end at 2.40pm. Jeremy Morgan: You are talking about the future Q64 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for relationship beyond Brexit, effectively? the Home Department (Kevin Foster): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. Mr Morgan, Kevin Foster: Yes. Effectively, there are negotiations what implications do you see for British citizens living ongoing, and the issue is what happens if the Government in Europe regarding the social security co-ordination reached an agreement and wished to implement it before provisions in the Bill? that time. Jeremy Morgan: The sound is not very good but I Jeremy Morgan: I should start by saying that we were will do my best. The question was about social security fairly careful in the representations that we made. We provisions, is that right? are a group that represents British citizens in Europe who are affected by Brexit and were there before Brexit. Kevin Foster: It was about what implications you see We have tended not to get into policy post the end of for British citizens in Europe regarding social security the transition period, simply because it is not within our co-ordination provisions in the Bill. remit to do so. It is for others to express views on that. Jeremy Morgan: May I start by thanking the Committee Clearly, if a further agreement is made for rights that for asking us to give evidence, even in this rather strange extend to others beyond those who are already in the way? The social security provisions are crucial for UK EU, it is important that the Government should be able citizens in the EU.They govern pensions, pension increases, to implement that, but whether that is by primary healthcare, other benefits, and the aggregation of the legislation or regulations made at the time for that equivalent of national insurance contributions made in purpose is a matter for this Committee to decide. I do different countries, without which some people would not think British in Europe would have a strong view fail to meet the minimum contribution period for pensions about it. or other benefits. Those provisions are preserved in UK law by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 so Q66 Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab): Perhaps I can there should be no impact. However, as is made clear in come to Professor Ryan first. Thank you very much for the briefing note that we prepared and that has, I hope, your written submission to the Committee. Can you been circulated, we are worried about clause 5 because talk us through what you think might be missing from that clause creates a regulation-making power wide clause 2? 35 Public Bill Committee9 JUNE 2020 Immigration and Social Security 36 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Professor Bernard Ryan: Certainly. First, I thank the Q68 Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth Committee and the Chair for the invitation. and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): May I continue, Professor Ryan, on deportation? This very same issue arose this The Chair: By the way, I do not know how our other time last year, in a previous Bill Committee. Is it right witness is going to hear you. The acoustics are not that, at that time, the Immigration Minister made a brilliant, and I suspect that they are quite a long way commitment to the higher threshold, even though it away. They are already having difficulty hearing anyway, was not in the Bill? Do I recall that correctly? so speak up loudly, slowly and clearly. Sorry to interrupt. Professor Bernard Ryan: That is correct. I believe it Professor Bernard Ryan: I will do my best. was in the Committee stage, in the light of the evidence, I obviously welcome clause 2. I see it as addressing a perhaps, that the Minister made that commitment. Those longstanding gap in immigration law, which is a lack of commitments are obviously welcome, from my perspective. clear provision for Irish citizens, notwithstanding the fact that there has not been a policy or practice of Q69 Stuart C. McDonald: That prompts the question: placing restrictions on them. As I see it, the clause why not just put it on the face of the Bill? addresses the legal status of Irish citizens who enter the United Kingdom from outside the common travel area, Professor Bernard Ryan: It is obviously stronger if it so I wholeheartedly welcome it.

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