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the boisi center interviews no. 34: March 18, 2009

timothy samuel shah is adjunct senior fellow for and foreign policy at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) and senior research scholar at the Institute on , Religion and Affairs at Boston . He spoke with Boisi Center associate director Erik Owens before his presentation on evangelicals and at the Boisi Center.

owens: There’s broad confusion among often used to refer to groups that are go back to this taken-for-granted status of Americans and others about the distinc- specifically anti-modern in some sense, religion, either by creating authoritative tion between the terms evangelical, Pen- politically or theologically. Peter Berger subcultures, like the Amish sealed off tecostal and fundamentalist. Could you has usefully defined fundamentalists as from everybody else, or imposing a kind speak a bit about how you use the terms people who want to restore the “tak- of authoritative religious superstructure and whether this confusion exists or mat- en-for-granted status” of religion. In oth- on , like in Saudi Arabia. ters outside of the American context? owens: Do these terms carry the same shah: That’s a common source of con- freights abroad as they do in the U.S.? fusion. I use the term to shah: They don’t exactly, and this refer to those Protestants who are reviv- creates challenges. For example, in Latin alistic and biblicist. They have a belief in America, the term evangélico, which is personal conversion, they have a strong a literal translation of our term “evan- belief in the authority of the and gelical,” doesn’t mean what we mean by they also believe in a kind of urgent duty evangelical or what I just said I meant to share the good news of with by it. It really just means all Protestants. others through various means. I know actually a lot of countries in the Pentecostals, you could say are “evangeli- world where the term “evangelical” or cals plus.” They’re also evangelicals. They “evangelical ” really just means all believe those things I just mentioned. Protestants, not what we mean by more But in addition, they believe that it is an theologically conservative or revivalist essential mark of being a Christian to Protestants. So, that does pose challeng- have an infilling of the , to es. be empowered by the Holy Spirit, to be owens: Going back a bit to Peter Berg- baptized in the Holy Spirit. Some Pen- er words, they want to restore the status er, who defines fundamentalism as an tecostals believe that as evidence of that, quo ante, the situation that existed in a urge to reclaim the status quo ante, could you have to speak in tongues, but not all variety of before the onset of the same be said about evangelicals in Pentecostals believe that. So, Pentecostals , where people essentially took the sense of trying to restore Christiani- are “evangelicals plus,” sort of Spirit- for granted the veracity and the author- ty’s take-for-grantedness, though not the filled evangelicals. ity of the religious communities and forcefulness by which that is undertaken? traditions that they were raised in. There The meaning of “fundamentalists” is a was no kind of competitive pluralism; shah: This is challenging because I little bit less clear. It’s generally a term people just took for granted the truth think there are some evangelicals who I try to avoid because I think it doesn’t of their religious tradition. Berger says could be called fundamentalists. For have a lot of conceptual clarity to it. It’s fundamentalists are people who want to example, Bob Jones University is without

1 the boisi center interview: timothy samuel shah question a fundamentalist university. It’s make the entire society Christian in belief that you have to have a personal also evangelical. There are parts of Amer- some robust sense. conversion, you have to be . In ican evangelicalism and parts of world other words, people are not born Chris- There have been very few evangelicals evangelicalism that are fundamentalist. tians. They can’t inherit their faith from who have actually seriously entertained They think that there should be some ef- their parents or their church just because such projects and even fewer who have fort, either to create a kind of subculture perhaps they’ve been baptized in the made any political progress in actually that’s sealed off from the rest of society church. You can’t take for granted that advancing them. The one group that’s or to impose a kind of neo- you are a Christian. Evangelicalism in a often referred to in this context is the on society. But in every society that I’ve sense is an insistent call even to people group led by people who are more kind of looked at, the fundamentalist wing of who claim that they’re : Are extreme Calvinists than evangelicals. R.J. evangelicalism is very much a minority. you really a Christian and have you really Rushdoony and Gary North were a group Most American evangelicals and most made that choice? that led a project with the wonderful evangelicals around the world do not To that extent, evangelicalism is an have this kind of fundamentalist aspira- almost perfectly modern, voluntaristic tion. faith that has a deep affinity with mo- owens: But if you believe in restoring “Modernity and dernity. It’s no accident that, historically ’s taken-for-grantedness in speaking, evangelicals and modernity addition to the other tenets of evangeli- evangelicalism are essentially coextensive. There was no calism, you’re a fundamentalist? were born evangelical Christianity prior to the 17th century or the 16th century. Modernity shah: Yes, that’s right. In other words, and evangelicalism were born together, a fundamentalist evangelical would be an together, both both emphasizing choice over fate, volun- evangelical that’s fundamentally uncom- emphasizing taristic association over organic com- fortable with the kind of existential condi- munity. They’re both comfortable with tion of modernity where we have to make choice over fate, that are based on choice, based choices. We have to decide what religion on contracts freely entered into, based on we will be. No matter how strongly we voluntaristic the idea that associations are freely cho- ourselves are committed to our particular sen and they’re not just taken for granted. faith, there’s always that lurking sense association In all these ways, there are affinities. that I’m still making a choice, and an over organic uncertainty about what my children will owens: What do you see across the choose. Evangelicals generally accept this community.” world, particularly in the Global South, and are reasonably comfortable with it. which is the core of your most recent Fundamentalists are people who are not work, in terms of evangelically inclined comfortable with it, who really do want political actors? What’s the landscape name of Theonomic Reconstructionism, to somehow create conditions that are look like around the world? which was a serious theocratic project, essentially incompatible with modernity. but few evangelicals could tell you what shah: The landscape is very, very owens: Why do you think evangeli- theonomic reconstructionism is, much diverse. You mainly have three different cals in the United States are commonly, less actually got on board that particular patterns of evangelical political activism. though usually mistakenly, understood campaign. One is evangelicals creating their own to be theocrats? Is that view warranted political parties and expressly evangelical owens: Broadening the question a bit, historically? political movements, or they are creat- what kind of inherent relationship do ing “Christian” movements that when shah: In general, no. I think one of the you see between evangelicals or evangel- you dig beneath the surface really are striking findings in research I’ve done icalism and democratic movements or essentially evangelical. Another pattern both historically and on contemporary movements toward popular sovereignty? is evangelical church leaders not forming evangelicalism is that you have very few shah: I think there are a lot different their own political structures or parties cases of a theocratic program. This is kinds of affinities. One, I think there’s but very actively getting involved in party true in America and around the world. By just a deep affinity rooted in evangelical politics and endorsing politicians. Then , if one takes the term seriously, . As I said, one of the leading you have a third pattern of grassroots one means an imposition of a Christian characteristics of evangelicalism is the evangelical activism—a building up legal or political system on society to

2 the boisi center interview: timothy samuel shah of civil society organizations, creating NGOs, creating spaces where the poor and marginalized are empowered. So you have different kinds of patterns with different kinds of consequences for democratic politics. I would say the first pattern of the evangelical construction of political parties has been astonishing- ly incompetent and unsuccessful. The efforts to create evangelical parties or movements have, generally speaking, been a great failure. They haven’t gener- ated much evangelical support, let alone support of others. The second pattern, evangelical church leaders working with existing politi- cal parties, has been somewhat more shah: Those are great questions. Clear- In other words, Protestant communities successful. The Universal Church of the ly, there has been a demographic shift. are a kind of barometer in many coun- Kingdom of God in , for example, At the beginning of the 20th century, tries, as far as the West is concerned, for has been very sophisticated in building was an almost exclusive- the state of religious and other kinds of relationships with existing political ly North Atlantic phenomenon. It was freedom. We tend to hear as American parties. They forged an alliance with the restricted demographically to North Christians about issues of religious free- current Brazilian President, President Atlantic societies—Britain, United States, dom because of the way our co-religion- Lula, successfully. Northern Germany and Holland. There ists are being affected. In general, Amer- The third pattern, I would say, has been were very few Protestants outside of those icans are not good at following what’s the most successful. In a sense, evangel- places. happening in places like Sri Lanka. Our icals have the greatest impact on politics news doesn’t give us much opportunity But by the end of the 20th century, the when they don’t get directly involved in to learn about the latest developments in situation was different. You had large politics, when they’re not focused on places like Belize or Cote d’Ivoire. Protestant communities in Latin Ameri- high politics and electoral activity and ca, in Africa and even in Asia. There was For churchgoing American evangelicals, relationships with politicians. When they a dramatic shift, and this has had very one of the ways that their world has sort are building up civil society, creating important consequences. One conse- of opened up is through networks and contexts where otherwise marginalized quence is that the world picture that west- connections with evangelical co-religion- people are included and can participate ern evangelicals tend to have is now very, ists. They hear how their missionaries and can learn civic skills, I think this is very different. Instead of seeing places are doing and what their missionaries are where evangelicals play a significant and like Africa and as cultur- seeing. They read missionary newslet- positive role in building up the kind of ally distant, as sort of dark continents, ters. They read Voice of the Martyrs, a social foundations for democracy. there are many more networks and con- publication which talks about the perse- owens: What does it mean that the nections that bring American evangeli- cution of evangelicals in different parts of geographic center of evangelicalism has cals and say, African evangelicals, close the world. So they learn about issues that shifted far away from Anglo-America and together. This has all kinds of impacts. they wouldn’t otherwise probably learn what kind of impact has that had in the It has an impact on policy. It was one of about. Global South’s relationship to the West? the reasons that Americans were aware of owens: How have American or North I’m thinking about the global Southern the HIV/AIDS crisis in Africa, because of Atlantic evangelicals been challenged on evangelicals looking at America as a these connections. It’s one of the reasons the flip side in their own faith by evangel- mission field almost, but also sort of that American and western Christians in icals around the world? the responses to and how that’s general are aware of impacted things around the world. as a problem in many of these places. shah: I think evangelicals are being challenged as many of them visit places like Africa. Something like a million and

3 the boisi center interview: timothy samuel shah a half Americans went on short-term places like Africa? These contacts have they’re charismatic and sort of Pentecos- mission trips last summer. Upwards of a actually helped make American evangel- talized. million Americans take short-term mis- icals a major constituency for increasing Then there’s the violent reaction strat- sion trips every summer. Not all of those American foreign aid, which American egy, which is to react against and try to are evangelicals, but many of them are. evangelicals were not in the past. That restrict Pentecostal activity. There’s a lot And my experience is that invariably peo- was usually what left wing groups did, of concern in South Asia, where I spent ple are challenged to look again at their not what American evangelicals did. a lot of time last year, about Pentecostal materialistic lifestyles, to look again at owens: How has the enormous vitality evangelism and the planting of churches, the choices they make with their money. of the Pentecostal movement impact- and this has led to greater pressure to They are also confronted often with the ed other Protestant and and legislatively try to restrict conversion. narrowness of their politics. In their non-Christian movements, both grass Usually, this is in response to Pentecostal politics, conservative evangelicals tend to roots and political movements, around groups, like the . In be very much oriented to social or moral the world as you’ve seen it? Sri Lanka, before the national parlia- issues like abortion and homosexuali- shah: I think there have been two main ment, there is now a draconian bill to ty. This has changed to some extent in strategies. One is the “if you can’t beat punish religious conversion, which is recent years, but I’m convinced that the them, join them” strategy. Many kinds of mainly a response to Pentecostal evange- exposure to the situation that our fellow Christian churches have become Pen- listic activity in Sri Lanka. That’s the sec- evangelicals face in other parts of the tecostalized as a consequence of Pente- ond response. A lot of people and groups, world has caused many evangelicals to costal success. They’ve kind of adopted and even some Christian churches, like broaden their sense of what’s important features of Pentecostal worship, not the in many parts of the in terms of public policy. Should we be necessarily Pentecostal theology about world, are opposed to what they see as spending more on foreign aid? Shouldn’t speaking in tongues, but they’ve adopted aggressive Pentecostal evangelism. we be spending more on fighting malaria more charismatic worship styles. I have and HIV/AIDS? Shouldn’t we be pro- [end] visited Anglican in Africa, and moting micro-enterprise development in

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4 the boisi center interview: timothy samuel shah