Second Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Published under the authorityof The Honourable George Hickes Speaker

Vol. LI No. 46- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, June 13, 2001

ISSN 0542-5492 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. ASPER, Linda Riel N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Joy Fort Garry P.C. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P. 2869

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

VVednesday,June13 ,2001

The House met at 1:30 p.m. An Honourable Member: Yes.

PRAYERS Mr. Speaker: The Clerk please read.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the PRESENTINGPETITIONS province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest un­ Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I separated crossing in Canada; and would like to present the petition of Shannon Kraichy, Reginald Chrusch, Lisa Chrusch and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad others, praying that the Legislative Assembly of crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as Manitoba request that the Minister responsible set out by Transport Canada; and for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Selinger) consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. at this intersection bum up approximately $1.4 Paul. million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi­ Kenaston Underpass mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year. Mr. John Loewen (Fort VVhyte): I would like to present the petition of Warde Fraser, Barb WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS Gamey, Estelle Rochon Fraser and others, HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not consider reversing his decision to not support support construction of an underpass at construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Kenaston and Wilkes. Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I beg to Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the present the petition of Lome Britton, Mel Eden, petition, and it complies with the rules and Ben Oakden and others, praying that the Premier practices of the House. Is it the will of the House of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to to have the petition read? not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Some Honourable Members: Yes.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: The Clerk please read.

Kenaston Underpass Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for sheweth: Tuxedo (Mrs. Stefanson), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and THAT the intersection at Wilkes and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House Kenaston has grown to become the largest to have the petition read? unseparated crossing in Canada; and 2870 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad SOOkV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as Paul. set out by Transport Canada; and Kenaston Underpass

THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for at this intersection bum up approximately $1.4 Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), I have reviewed million in fuel, pollute the environment with the petition and it complies with the rules and over 8 tons of emissions and cause practices of the House. Is it the will of the House approximately $7.3 million in motorist delays to have the petition read? every year. An Honourable Member: Yes. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read. Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned Kenaston and Wilkes. citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: * (13:35) THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad petition, and it complies with the rules and crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as practices of the House. Is it the will of the House set out by Transport Canada; and to have the petition read? THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains Some Honourable Members: Yes. at this intersection bum up approximately $1.4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with Mr. Speaker: The Clerk please read. over 8 tons of emissions and cause approximately $7.3 million in motorist delays Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned every year. citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul has the support construction of an underpass at highest concentration of high voltage power Kenaston and Wilkes. lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a SOOkV 2001 Venice Biennale and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and Plug In Gallery Award

THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Culture, in particular childhood leukemia, to the proxim­ Heritage and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I have a ity of power lines. statement for the House. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Plug In gallery is presenting Canada's Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister official entry in the 49th Venice Biennale, a IS­ responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider minute audio and video installation by Canadian alternative routes for the additional 230kV and artists Janet Cardiff and George Bures Miller. June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2871

This is the first time a Manitoba gallery has been to support their entry into the competition. I awarded the Biennale Commission which apologize if- usually goes to much larger institutions, meaning Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal. Mr. Speaker: Order. I regret to interrupt the honourable member, but Beauchesne's Citation The gallery which received $30,000 from 351 indicates that the Speaker limits the the Manitoba Arts Council and $28,300 through Opposition reply to a period not to exceed the the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs time taken by the minister. I note the honourable towards a budget of $600,000 to present the art member's comments are now considered longer work, the Paradise Institute, is to be than those of the minister, and I would ask the congratulated for its huge success. The Cardiff­ honourable member to please conclude your Miller piece which was commissioned by comments. Wayne Baerwaldt, Plug In's adjunct curator, has won a Venice Biennale Special Award which is Mrs. Dacquay: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will. the first time a Canadian gallery has won an We are very pleased that indeed the Plug In award at Venice. The award has been cited as an gallery was one of the award recipients. Thank important victory in diplomatic circles. you.

Plug In is being lauded by the Canada Municipal Roads Council for the Arts for its ability to handle Grant-In-Aid Program shows of the highest international calibre, so once again Manitoba finishes first; it is Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of tremendous for the province and tremendous for Transportation and Government Services): I the art community. am very pleased to provide the House with information on the grant-in-aid program this Thank you. year in support of municipal roads in Manitoba. Under the grant-in-aid program, local * (13:40) governments submit transportation infrastructure projects for 50-50 cost sharing with the Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Province. Projects eligible for cost sharing are Speaker, I would like to join with the Minister of those on roads with municipal boundaries that Culture, Heritage and Tourism in commending connect to the provincial highway system or and supporting the Plug In gallery with its first municipal roads that provide local access to official entry of the 49th Venice Biennale. I hospitals, personal care homes, schools, or waste understand that this is a first in many instances, disposal facilities. and on this side of the House we are very pleased that the gallery is being supported to As part of this program, 110 Manitoba being able to participate in this international communities will receive a total of $1.3 million event. in provincial support for these projects. While many of these projects are small in scale, they However, I would like to add that I believe provide meaningful and important assistance for that this is not news. I believe I read a news maintaining local transportation infrastructure. release about a month or more ago indicating The projects range from dust control and that the province was making a contribution to repaving to work on major structures, such as, support this initiative and-[interjection] Pardon and this I believe is the largest grant, $97,000 me? provincial contribution for bridge repairs in Souris, or another example being $50,000 in An Honourable Member: I believe it was for provincial support for street reconstruction in the award, even though it is a month later. Blumenort.

Mrs. Dacquay: Well, yes, my reference was Mr. Speaker, transportation is a critical specifically to the announcement by the economic link for our province. It is equally Government of Manitoba relative to the funding important as a link for social development. 2872 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

These grant-in-aid projects demonstrate how pleased to table the Thirtieth Annual Report of transportation infrastructure can improve our the Manitoba Law Reform Commission for standard of living by providing access to 2000-2001. neighbours and community centres. I would like to thank those local governments who share this Introduction of Guests vision and have matched our Government's financial contribution to this program. Thank Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would you, Mr. Speaker. like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have, Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): We from J. R. Walcof Elementary School, 49 Grade thank the minister for his information on the 5 students under the direction of Mr. Gerald grant-in-aid program, which has been a Letkeman. This school is located in the traditional program funded by government on a constituency of the honourable Member for 50-50 basis with municipal governments for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). some time in this province. The minister talks about traditional infrastructure. Of course, we On behalf of all honourable members, I are completely in support of the infrastructure welcome you here today. program. I would raise a concern with him that infrastructure to most Manitobans means roads ORAL QUESTION PERIOD and water and sewer. and we see governments spending money on arenas and cultural centres, Ultrasound Technicians which are very important structures, but the Recruitment/Retention Strategy thrust of infrastructure should be for that traditional infrastructure in roads and water and Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official sewer programs. Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we have obtained information today from Manitoba ultrasound I would also mention that the construction technicians that has highlighted the serious association refers to itself as an industry in crisis, concerns about the growing shortages of and I would urge the Minister of Transportation individuals in their profession. In 1999, we were to have those tenders move forward. The pleased to see that six of the eight graduates construction industry is saying they are in the remained in Manitoba to work. In the year 2000, biggest drought in 10 years as far as projects are only three of seven graduates stayed in concerned, and they look to government for a Manitoba. In addition, they have conducted a certain number of public sector work. Many of poll which suggests that several of our the long-standing construction companies in experienced ultrasound technicians are seriously Manitoba are looking to Ontario and Alberta for considering moving within the next year. work and finding it there. Workers are leaving our province. Now that the minister has the In light of the worsening situation and the grant-in-aid program out of the way, perhaps he growing trend of needed health care specialists, can spend some of his valuable time on looking those that are leaving our province, can the at the tendering process. I raised this in Premier explain why his Government has done Estimates in early May. Nothing has been nothing in the last 20 months to improve the resolved there at the end of May and early June, situation? and I would urge the minister to take a look at those projects so that the construction industry Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): There are presently can get to work in this province. 30 vacant EFTs in this area across the province. I think the member will find some of his * (13:45) numbers about retention to be quite questionable. We are aware of the situation in TABLING OF REPORTS terms of the shortage of some of the specialists. We dealt with part of that issue last year with Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice wage negotiations, some of the wages were the and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am last place in Canada which represented a real June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2873 challenge for us. We resolved part of that last this group and other groups to deal with the year in collective bargaining. Other parts of that waiting list. We are having more ultrasounds remain a policy for us to deal out of the conducted and performed in Manitoba since we Recruitment and Retention Fund fo r people in were elected into office, but there is no question positions that are non-unionized. we should be training more and we will be training more, Mr. Speaker. Thirdly, we are going to increase the size of the class for next September, just as we have * (13:50) announced with other technologists last week with Red River College. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, he claims that he may have said it, but Manitobans do not believe Mr. Murray: The only thing questionable, I him. I would like to table another letter, if I believe, is the ability of this Premier to keep his could. promises. As I said, Manitobans do not believe this I would like to table a letter, if I could. Premier when it comes to health care promises. Health care professionals are leaving. Increased The situation is getting worse under this training in Manitoba is not effective because the Premier's watch. In another letter from the same Premier has refused to keep Manitoba competi­ ultrasound technicians, they state, and I quote: tive. He has refused to provide meaningful tax The problem is now reaching a critical point. If relief, and he has done nothing to improve the it is not addressed quickly then the province will working conditions. find itself with longer and longer waiting lists, more patient complaints and an increasing In a May 11 letter from Health Sciences number of disgruntled and burnt-out sono­ Centre ultrasound technicians to this Health graphers. Unless action is taken, Mr. Speaker, Minister (Mr. Chomiak), they state: To train these problems will only multiply as conditions sonographers in Manitoba and provide them deteriorate, forcing more and more sono­ with experience, only to see them leave for other graphers, both new and experienced, to leave the provinces would be a flagrant misuse of this province. province's resources. The Premier's lack of a health care plan is resulting in Manitobans being Mr. Speaker, will the Premier get serious trained only to leave for greener pastures. about the worsening health care system in Manitoba and instruct his Health Minister, who, Why has this Premier done nothing to attract by the way, admits he has no plan, he has no and retain needed ultrasound technicians? grand scheme to solve health care, will the Premier instruct him to start taking action to Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I just said that we are attract and retain needed ultrasound technicians going to increase the size of the training and other health care professionals to Manitoba? positions, something that was not done for 11 years prior to us coming into office.That fo llows Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I do not know who increasing the classroom size and admissions for writes his questions, but he also added "other nurses, something that had gone in the opposite health care professionals" in his question to us. direction. It fo llows on a decision to increase the numbers of doctors that are being trained in Let me repeat what I said in the last answer. Manitoba, again something that went in the We have taken a number of nurses that have opposite direction in this province. contracted-[interjection} Well, you asked the question. Do you want to hear the answer? We There is no question that the non-unionized have taken the number of nurse training sonographers at the Health Sciences Centre have positions that had decreased dramatically by a legitimate issue of recruitment and retention. about 50 percent over a 10-year period, and we We have asked, through the Minister of Health are now going back by increasing that close to (Mr. Chomiak), fo r the Recruitment and 50 percent to have more nurses on the front Retention Fund of$2 million to be targeted in on lines. 2874 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 200I

We have taken a decision to reduce the indicate to western Manitoba when these numbers of doctors in training by about I2 per unacceptable waiting lists will be resolved? year, about 20 percent. We have taken that decision that was made by the previous Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. government to go down by I2 doctors. We have Speaker, as was indicated by the Premier (Mr. I2 more coming into medical school, and Doer) in his response, more action has been particularly targeted for rural and northern taken on dealing with waiting lists than any time Manitobans. I know they do not care about rural over the last 11 years. Manitoba anymore, Mr. Speaker. With respect to the situation in Brandon, Thirdly, we recognize that, even with the there is a shortage of six EFTs with respect to state-of-the-art equipment like there is in Brandon. One of the students who is graduating Brandon, 30 EFT shortages is a problem, and we from the present sonographer class in July will will be increasing dramatically the size of the be taking up a position in Brandon. Two class for these specialists. We know that we have students, in addition, are in training, targeted to train more of our young people. The status back to Brandon. For the first time in a decade, quo that we inherited is not acceptable. We will we are expanding the sonographers' class in work on our recruitment and retention. We did order to train more sonographers, part of a part of that in the unionized sector. We are package of training that had not been done fo r II working on the Recruitment and Retention Fund years. in the non-union sector. After training more doctors, more nurses, We are proceeding to renovate the fac ilities more medical technologists, more X-ray, lab at the Health Sciences Centre for ultrasound technicians, we are now going to be training procedures. We are going to put more ultrasound more sonographers. capacity into the community, something that we also believe is very, very important. In the case * (13:55) of Brandon where there is a shortage of equipment, or the equipment is excellent, we Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, the doctor in will obviously need more staff. But, as we said Brandon, Doctor Kindle, must have been a mind before on questions on equipment, we will be reader, because his question to the minister of utilizing the diagnostic equipment, the CAT the Government is: Are they just going to scans, the MRis, and the ultrasound equipment continue to say, well, too bad Manitobans, you to increase our capacity on the technical side. It, will just have to wait till things get better over obviously, needs a lot of effo rt, but that is five the next one to two to three years? areas of positive initiative that we believe over time will make a difference for Manitoba Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as we speak, the patients. RHA in Brandon and the RHA in Winnipeg are having discussions with respect to dealing with Diagnostic Testing any patients who require urgent care. I am Waiting Lists-Rural Manitoba advised that patients are getting urgent care. Of course, we are very concerned about it and Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. ensuring it is happening. Speaker, the residents of western Manitoba are again victims of another Doer government broken promise; that promise, to shorten waiting As I indicated, one of the students is coming lists fo r diagnostic testing. Rural Manitobans back to Brandon, two more are in training. In the now have to wait up to 12 weeks fo r an urgent medium term we are going to continue to ultrasound. Dr. Geoff Kindle of Brandon, a manage the system. We have the state of the art, doctor in Brandon, said it has never been this the best equipment in Manitoba in Brandon. We bad. are training more people to operate that system, and they will not have to wait II years, as they My question: Will the minister, and I want did for the past 1I years fo r the previous to make it very easy fo r him to answer this, government who did nothing on this issue. June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2875

Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that The members on the other side were talking expectant mothers are very reassured by the about the concern about skilled individuals and minister's comments. opportunities that remain open in Manitoba. There are a number of opportunities in Manitoba My question to the minister is: What is he that are available for young people, and in fact doing to ensure the safety of these people who our unemployment rate has been the lowest or need these services today? second-lowest for the pastthree years in Canada.

Mr. Cbomiak: Mr. Speaker, first off, we are I would encourage members of this House to doing more ultrasounds in Manitoba than the pass the word along and talk to Manitobans members opposite did for the past 11 years. about the opportunities that we have in Manitoba Secondly, we are going to be greatly increasing now. There are career opportunities in Manitoba the sonographers' class so we will have to satisfy and challenge each one of our own sonographers in the province of Manitoba. citizens, and hopefully a growing population will Thirdly, as I indicated, a policy of co-ordination continue. for those people requiring ultrasound service in Brandon is being worked on, as we speak, in Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, will the minister­ order to deal with that issue. Fourthly, there is clearly she does not understand that 2500 one sonographer coming to Brandon, two more Manitobans last year left the province for new in training to deal with the situation in Brandon. opportunities elsewhere. Will she not acknowledge that the issue of the brain drain is a I am sorry members opposite voted against reality in our province? doctors, and I am sorry they might vote against the sonographer thing, because there are Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Speaker, population trends shortages all across the province. We are trying and movement interprovincially have occurred to meet those shortages by our long-term plan to from day one. Migration of people, particularly train more people to fill those positions and to in the younger sector as they explore other retain them in Manitoba to rebuild the health opportunities, is a normal occurrence. If you care system so that people are here to provide look at the statistics, the record for migration this service. during the Tory government of the past is significantly higher than now. In fact, for the Migration Survey past two years we have seen Manitoba's Opportunities fo r Young People population actually grow.

Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): A recent * (14:00) poll conducted by the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce indicates that 75 percent of Winnipeg Mrs. Stefanson: How does the Doer residents aged 18 to 34 are considering leaving government expect to retain our young educated Manitoba. This intolerable situation has resulted workforce when provinces like B.C. are from the Doer government's failure to provide significantly cutting income taxes to make opportunities for young people. themselves more competitive with provinces like Ontario, Alberta and even Saskatchewan? How Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Industry much further will you let us fall behind? admit the Doer government has failed to address the serious issue of keeping our young people in Ms. Mihychuk: The No. 1 opportunity for this province when three out of four want to young people is career choice and meaningful leave for better opportunities elsewhere? jobs. Finally this province has a government committed to education and training, the No. 1 Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of factor to keep young people in Manitoba. With a Industry, Trade and Mines): Just about every vibrant private sector growing at levels that member in this House, except for the Member exceed every national expectation, Mr. Speaker, for Tuxedo, understands we are in a growing we see a number of opportunities in Manitoba economy and in fact our population is growing. only growing. Our young people will have 2876 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 opportunities to stay in Manitoba, and that is the was Manitoba's best increase in, guess what, 11 No. I issue. years. Mr. Schuler: I would like to ask this Minister of Labour Legislation Labour regarding the two polls just released if Impact on Business the almost 70% concern over labour laws correlates with the 75 percent of youth looking Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): A new poll has to flee Manitoba. been released showing Manitoba business concerns are now just short of 70 percent about Ms. Barrett: would reiterate the this Government's anti-business, anti-worker, unemployment figurefo r Manitoba youth in year anti-democratic legislation. Will the Minister of 2000 was the lowest in the country and the Labour admit that her anti-business, anti-worker, lowest in Manitoba since 1977. I would like to anti-democracy legislation is having a negative say, Mr. Speaker, that rather than our impact upon Manitoba's business community? Government's actions over the last 20 months killing the entrepreneurial spirit, as the Member Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and for Springfield said in an article this morning in Immigration): I would just like to quote a the paper, I would like to juxtapose his couple of statistics on the economic climate in comments with the comments of the president of the province of Manitoba last year fr om the the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, Mr. Manitoba Chambers of Commerce, Manitoba Graham Starmer who, quote, acknowledged Bureau of Statistics numbers. Labour income yesterday, i.e., yesterday, that the NDP has was up 7.3 percent in 2000. Total employment exceeded the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce's grew by 11 700 jobs, the strongest since 1986, expectations since being elected in 1999. I will stronger than any of the 11 years the fo rmer let the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce and the government was in power. In 2000, Manitobans Manitoba Bureau of Statistics speak fo r created 13 000 full-time positions, the strongest themselves. increase since 1976, again stronger than any time in the two fo rmer governments. Winnipeg Casinos Advertising Campaign The unemployment rate last year was the lowest in Manitoba since 1976. Are you getting Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, it a sense of the trends here? is odd how we hear this more and more fr om the other side. We are now hearing more and more Mr. Schuler: To this Government business fr om the Minister of Lotteries for gaming and concerns are trivial. What does this Minister of gambling in this province. This is one of the Labour say to Art De Fehr of Palliser Furniture, things where they are even actually going after who fo rewarned this minister last year: Do not more and more with their advertising, their put our future at risk fo r the wrong reasons? direction to go after the youth. Why did this minister risk Manitoba's future I have to ask the Minister responsible fo r with Bill 44? Lotteries she said yesterday that they were doing Ms. Barrett: I would say No. 1 is the reality that their campaign fo r advertising to protect their Mr. De Fehr has just opened a new store in the revenue stream, but can she not admit in the last Polo Park area in the western part of the city. I report fr om Manitoba Lotteries that revenues for would also like to continue quoting some of the both casinos have increased by over 25 percent, economic statistics from the Manitoba Chamber $15 million more? Why are you advertising, of Commerce and the Manitoba Bureau of appealing to the young people in this province? Statistics. The Manitoba 2000 youth unemployment Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister charged rate was the lowest in the country. This was the with the administration of The Manitoba best performance since 1977. Personal Lotteries Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, there disposable income in Manitoba rose by 5.6 is an old saying that people who live in glass percent, more than double the 1999 gain, and houses should not throw stones. June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2877

I would like to point out, in 1989 the Crystal Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Casino had a multimedia gaming advertising Southdale. [interjection] The honourable campaign. In 1993, all casinos were advertising member's time has expired. everything. But since the only thing that was there was gaming, all casinos were advertising Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker will the minister then gaming inside the province, as the member fr om respond to the pressure that has been put on by River East well knows. In 1993, and I presume the public here in Manitoba to take away that this was also under the Member for River East advertising, to take away those TV s, to take (Mrs. Mitchelson), there was an advertising bus away all that programming because it is fully painted, promoting gambling in the city of becoming offensive to people who do not want Winnipeg. In 1994, Mr. Speaker, after the to be exposed to it? Desjardins report, there was a recommendation that the advertising should shift from gaming We moved on that. We removed it. Will and focus on tourism. At that point, there was an they remove it now? unofficial policy that advertising should be done outside the province, gaming advertising, a kind Ms. McGifford: Well, Mr. Speaker, I did not of moral schizophrenia. actually hear a question from the member opposite. I heard him say that they moved Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. gambling advertisement from inside the province out of the province. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. The comment I wanted to make earlier is that seems to me a kind of moral schizophrenia, Point of Order to assume that it is okay to encourage people outside the province to gamble. Where is your Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House sense of public responsibility, broad-speaking Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417: public responsibility? Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not But I did want to--oh, another point of order. provoke debate. * (14:10) Mr. Speaker, in the minister's own words, that was yesterday. This is today. We did not Mr. Speaker: Order. target the children of Manitoba. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): It must Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House be Beauchesne's 417, Mr. Speaker, provoking Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. debate. I guess I would argue that the minister Speaker. The point of order is nothing near a yesterday said that they were advertising to bring point of order. It was a mere interruption. people from outside of Manitoba into Winnipeg to the casinos,and today she is saying she is not, What the member had asked was being that they are advertising in Winnipeg to take responded to by the minister. The minister was advantage of Winnipeg people. simply putting the question in context and pointing out how silly it is when the Opposition gets up and says do not do what we do. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does not have a point of order. It is a Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House dispute over the facts. Leader): Well, Mr. Speaker, there was no provoking of debate. There was simply a feeling * * * 2878 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

of being provoked by the Opposition. They are waiting, thinking that the member was getting very thin-skinned, I am sure, on this issue. done afterasking that question.

Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by The member knows fu ll well, would you the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, he please remind him, that a supplementary does not have a point of order. It is a dispute question requires no preamble, no postamble, no over the facts. ambling, no rambling. That is what we got.

* * * Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, I was speaking would like to take this opportunity to remind all about the fact that members opposite seem to honourable members that 409(2) advises that a fe el it was all right to do their gambling supplementary question should not require a advertisement outside the province. preamble. The honourable member had already put his question. Well, the current policy is to advertise

responsible-use policy in the province. In fact, * * * this Government has put several hundred thousand dollars into its responsible-use Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, this Government advertising called Keep It a Game. inherited two huge gambling palaces constructed by the fo rmer government. They were huge in I do not know if members are against size. They had huge debts. They had huge responsible use or if they want wholesale overruns. gambling. I think they should come clear. One day, it is one thing; the next day, it is another We inherited the sins of the fo rmer thing. In 1993, we have gambling buses- government, and we are struggling, Mr. Speaker, to run a responsible Manitoba Lotteries Corpo­ Mr. Speaker: Order. ration. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, this is a minister who Same-Sex Relationships represents the Government of Manitoba, but I Adoption Rights will ask the Minister of Gaming whether she is turning the casinos into the Las Vegas of the Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. North with her fill-up-on-fun advertising Speaker, my question is to the Minister of campaign that is running during prime time Justice. One of the issues of significant public when youth are watching the television, and she debate today concerns the procedures whereby says it is only a game. She has to look very gay or lesbian couples can adopt children. carefully at that ad that runs on TV, because it is way down on the bottom, and it runs fo r maybe I would ask the Minister of Justice if he will about a second and a half. admit that today in Manitoba a gay or lesbian person can indeed legally adopt a child under So fo r her to say that they are not aiming current regulations and laws. their advertising at youth, I think that she has to re-address that program. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the issue Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government is certainly an important one of public debate House Leader, on a point of order. which I am very pleased to see take place. I have a thought, though. Yesterday, the bill was before Point of Order the House. The honourable member chose not to participate in that debate, chose not to participate Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, I regret in the vote on that bill. Where were his thoughts having to get up. I was waiting and waiting and yesterday? June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2879

Mr. Gerrard: We have a committee and a third Before the election, we said we would reading, minister. I ask: Why does the minister comply with M v. H. After the election, we allow gays and lesbians to adopt children, but delivered on that. We are complying with M v. when they are a couple it is only possible for one H. There are challenges ahead. This is a journey. parent to be named on the adoption papers? It is a path. We have to make further Does this not encourage hidden partners rather improvements to human rights and we are than an open society? committed to that.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, there is Winnipeg Casinos currently a bill before the Legislature which goes Advertising Campaign to committee on Monday night. Following that there will be a consideration of the parts of the Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Study after bill that respond to the Supreme Court decision study has shown clearly that it is the most in M v. H., a decision which we believe on a disadvantaged and vulnerable in our society who plain reading speaks to the issue of financial are most likely to fall victim to a gambling obligations. Every time there are changes and addiction problem. A study in Ontario has acknowledgements of rights and movement to shown that over 40 percent of youth in the 18 to improve the rights of Manitobans, it is open to 19 years-of-age category could be classified as everyone to say that a matter did not go far problem gamblers. enough or went too far. I would like to ask the Minister of Advanced Mr. Speaker, we respect that. We expect Education and responsible for Lotteries if she that. We also acknowledge that there are many, can explain to the people of Manitoba, many challenges ahead of this Legislature and particularly the youth, why her Government has all Manitobans to make this a fairer province. reversed its policy and is spending millions of That may well be one. but a good place to start is dollars advertising to attract Manitobans, young complying with the Supreme Court decision in and old, into her casinos. Mv.H Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister charged * (14:20) with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, I Mr. Gerrard: I ask my supplementary to the think I have answered that question several minister: If in a private adoption a birth mother, times, but I will reiterate my answers. We are in after interviewing potential adopting parents. a very competitive market. There are 41 casinos comes to a decision that she prefers her child is within eight hours drive of Winnipeg. We adopted by a gay or a lesbian couple, is it the inherited two gambling palaces. Huge in size position of the minister that this can only with huge debts, with huge cost overruns. We proceed provided that one partner in the gay or thought the sensible thing to do, since we are in lesbian couple remains entirely hidden and a highly competitive market, was to market the unknown in all legal documents? amenities of our facilities, not gaming and gambling as the former government has done, Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, the member, as I but to market the amenities, the restaurants and understand it, without getting into detail, is the entertainment. attempting to describe the current state of law in Manitoba and indeed in many provinces in We feel it is our duty as guardians of the Canada. public purse to pay the debts incurred by the I asked the member before the election, he members opposite and to get on with it. That is was asked what his position on M v. H was and what we are doing. he said he did not have one at that time. He would prefer that there be broad public Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, why is the Minister consultations before he took a position. At least of Advanced Education allowing this that was his position as expressed in one of the multimillion-dollar advertising campaign to local dailies. proceed when she knows full well that a study 2880 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 just issued by the Canada West Foundation word "hypocrites" which has been spoken by the indicates that 36 percent of Canadian youth Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) five times between the ages of 18 and 24 know personally now, he might be speaking about a Minister of of somebody who has a gambling problem? Why Education. I am not sure because that is who the is she allowing this advertising to continue? question was directed at, but you want to bring him to order and tell him that those words should Ms. McGifford: Again, I want to point out, as I not be said. have done twice today already, that we inherited two huge gambling palaces constructed by the Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government former government. They are huge in size. There House Leader, on the same point of order. are all kinds of rooms floating around there costing money. They have huge debts. They Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House have had huge cost overruns. We believe the Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's Citation sensible decision was to market the amenities, 490 says that same word has been ruled as the entertainment and the restaurants in these parliamentary as well. facilities. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order We do not believe in advertising gaming, as raised by the honourable Official Opposition the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) House Leader, I did not hear the comments so I did when she was the Minister for Lotteries in will take the matter under advisement and peruse 1993. As I said, we believe, as guardians of the Hansard and bring a ruling back to the House. public purse, that our duty is to pay the debts incurred by the former minister and the former Point of Order government, and that is why we are trying to keep these facilities- Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite put a question. He asked me if I have a Mr. Speaker: Order. backbone. The answer is, yes, I do, and I also have a huge debt inherited from members Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the opposite. Minister responsible for Advanced Education if her appetite for gambling revenue, the Doer Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort government's appetite for gambling revenue, is Whyte, on the same point of order. so voracious that she targets advertising directly- Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I had not put my question to the minister. I was attempting to put Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. my question when I was interrupted. When you called for order, I simply sat down as you rose. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Loewen: This Government has no spine. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by Period. [interjection] You do not have a the honourable Minister of Advanced Education backbone, any of you. (Ms. McGifford), she does not have a point of order. The honourable member was just about to Mr. Speaker: Order. put his question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. *** An Honourable Member: What a hypocrite. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Official Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Whyte, please put your question.

Point of Order * (14:30)

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 489: the question to the Minister of Advanced Education: June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2881

Is the Doer government's appetite for gambling ruled a question as being hypothetical and asked revenue so voracious that she would have to the member involved to rephrase the question. embark on a multimillion-dollar advertising Twice as Speaker I have ruled questions out of campaign to lure the very people that she, as the order as hypothetical and have asked that Minister of Advanced Education, is supposed to questions be rephrased. In comparing this be standing up for into her casinos? question to questions that have been fo und to be hypothetical in the past, I would rule that the Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, the reasons why question asked was indeed hypothetical. As Lotteries has chosen to lead an advertising noted in Beauchesne's Citation 410(12): campaign is because we have inherited two "Questions should not be hypothetical." gambling palaces, huge in size, huge in debt, Similarly, Marleau and Montpetit, on page 427 huge cost overruns. We think the sensible of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, decision is to be guardians of the public purse. advise that a question should not be We feel this is our duty as elected repre­ hypothetical, while Erskine May states on page sentatives in the Governmentof Manitoba. 303 of the 22nd Edition that "questions are also inadmissible which seek the solution of So what is responsible for the advertising hypothetical propositions." campaign is the debt that we have inherited and Based on the precedents and on the our determination to pay this debt back. authorities cited, I would rule that the question was hypothetical. As noted previously, the In fact, just to return to something the Member for Springfield did rephrase the member kind of put on the record, I think the question when asked to do so. sign that I have a backbone is my gumption in trying to address the sins left by the former MEMBERS' STATEMENTS members.

Manitoba Stampede and Exhibition Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): This year's Manitoba Stampede and Exhibition will be held July 19 to 22. The 38th annual event promises Speaker's Ruling entertainment for everyone by providing a full slate of top-notch events and activities. The Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. Valley Agricultural Society hosts the fair at During Oral Questions on June 5, 2001, a which the rodeo is the main attraction. It is the point of order was raised by the honourable only pro rodeo in Manitoba and the largest east Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) of Alberta. Last year, it attracted nearly 30 000 concerning a question asked by the honourable visitors to the site for the four-day event. Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler). The In addition to the rodeo, the Valley honourable Government House Leader cont­ Agricultural Society hosts one of Manitoba's ended that the question "will the Premier (Mr. largest dairy shows featuring Holstein and Doer) confirm that his Minister of Labour (Ms. Brown Swiss classes, large light horses and Barrett) will not be responsible for the proposed heavy horse competitions as well as 4-H, school health essential services legislation?" was and home craft displays. Free entertainment on hypothetical. The Official Opposition House the free stage is a good mix of talent from local Leader (Mr. Laurendeau) also spoke to the same to professional, covering all age groups. A large point of order. I took the matter under midway, a petting zoo, and many food and advisement in order to review Manitoba practice. concession booths round out the day, followed I also asked the honourable Member for by a cabaret on Friday and Saturday night in the Springfield to rephrase his question as the matter Big M Centre. was being taken under advisement. This event has brought a large number of In reviewing the rulings of past Manitoba tourists not only to our community but to Speakers, on four occasions Speaker Rocan Manitoba from surrounding provinces and states 2882 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 and even outside the country, Mr. Speaker, and the communication co-ordinator; and teachers promises to be a bigger success year after year. Rorie Bochinski, Darryl Bohart and Nancy Inquiries fr om as far away as Europe and Chislett fo r their great work and dedication to Australia from people planning their vacation to this very valuable educational program. be here during the rodeo can attest to the event's popularity and appeal. I would like to invite This program has enhanced the education of everyone to come out and enjoy a taste of the old these young people, and it is a model other west. Thank you. school divisions should consider. Thank you.

Career Internship Program Banquet * (14:40)

Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Waverley Heights Community Centre Speaker, I fe lt honoured as a former teacher to be invited to attend the 7th annual Career Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): I would like to Internship Program banquet at the River East extend my sincere congratulations to the people Collegiate to bring greetings on behalf of the and volunteers of the Waverley Heights Province. community centre which recently celebrated its 25th anniversary. This community centre has The banquet is an annual celebration of all played a central role fo r residents of Waverley the stakeholders in the Career Internship Heights, University Heights and Richmond West Program which includes students, parents, since April 1976. business partners and school and division administrators. Thanks to the commitment and enthusiasm of its innumerable volunteers over the years, One component of this program is its children and fam ilies of the area have been able partnership with over a hundred businesses. to participate in a wide variety of recreational Each year about 80 to 90 Grade 12 students activities, to work together fo r the betterment of partner or work at a business site from mid-April their neighbourhood, and best of all, residents to mid-June for nine weeks after they have have been able to create strong, lasting completed their fu ll university entrance program, friendships with others in their community. which consists of courses such as physics, chemistry, English, mathematics and computer, To celebrate their 25th year anniversary, the to name a fe w. Waverley Heights community centre held a weekend fu ll of fe stivities, including games, Another part of this program is the volunteer music, fireworks, a silent auction and a lovely component. All students are required to gala dinner and dance, all of which were made volunteer with a not-for-profit organization for a possible by the generous contributions of many minimum of 30 hours. Students volunteer at local businesses. I had the opportunity to attend organizations such as the Salvation Army, Terry the dinner and participate in the recognition of Fox Run, Concordia Hospital, personal care the ten past presidents of the community centre homes and Winnipeg Harvest, which are just as well as fo ur outstanding volunteers who have some of the many examples. donated many long hours to various community centre events. This program has won fo ur awards, of which two were national awards, and therefore has a Mrs. Lil Fulton, Mr. Garry Sheldon, Mr. Ed long established reputation fo r creating Quigley and Mr. Rafik Abi-Saleh were singled business-education partnerships that give out for their immeasurable efforts in assuring the students a chance to explore careers and develop smooth running of countless activities and skills fo r the workplace and prepares them for events. I, too, would like to thank all these university or college. individuals for their contributions, as well as to recognize the hundreds of other volunteers who Mr. Speaker, l commend and congratulate donated their time for such worthwhile Adriano Magnifico, the director; Alison Kohut, community events. Thanks to the caring efforts June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2883 of these volunteers, our children, families and You will be delighted both with the scenery and community have greatly benefited from the the northernhospitality. activities and fr iendships created at the Waverley Heights community centre. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. AI Munroe

Frontier Collegiate Institute Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Student Achievements Speaker, I would like to put on the record a few comments in honour of AI Munroe, a Liberal Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Mr. who died June 11, earlier this week. He had been Speaker, since older people often tend to be well, and this was a sudden illness and an critical of younger people, the achievements and unfortunate circumstance. positive contributions of teenagers may be overlooked. I would like to give this House That being said, Al Munroe who was born examples of the positive contributions made by on April 5, 1926, in Lauder, Manitoba, AI fo ur teenaged girls from the Grade 12 class of Munroe who was a telegraph messenger with Frontier Collegiate Institute in Cranberry CN Telegraphs, AI Munroe who in 1947 married Portage. his wife Lorraine who was the first fe male telegraph messenger in Canada, has had a Amanda Barbeau submitted a play, The significant and long career helping the Liberal Eagle Princess, to the Manitoba Association of Party in Manitoba. Playwrights. The play was performed at the Warehouse Theatre in Winnipeg and directed by He played a very significant role with Ian Ross, commonly known as Joe fr om Sharon Carstairs in the revitalization and re­ Winnipeg. The play received second place in the energization of the Liberal Party in the late provincial competition. 1980s and early 1990s. For me, Al Munroe has been a fr iend and someone who I fe el has made a Jennifer Lothian and Rosemarie Mason very significant contribution to our province. On received third and first place respectively in the many occasions we have met and talked provincial drug awareness week essay together. Al was a tireless traveller and worker competition sponsored by the Elks. Further, on behalf of Liberalism in this province. Rosemarie Mason's essay, "Experience with E," So I close today with just a tribute to AI dealing with the drug ecstasy won first prize Munroe and all that he has done and contributed nationally. over the course of his 75 years. Thank you. Lastly, Nicole Leptick rollerbladed 90 kilometres from The Pas to Cranberry Portage in * (14:40) order to raise money for the Terry Fox Foundation. She raised several thousand dollars ORDERS OF THE DAY fo r this important cancer research foundation. Throughout Nicole's exhausting 90-kilometre Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House journey she was accompanied by many Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce well-wishers, including two young fr iends on an additional meeting of the Standing bicycles, namely Michelle Gamblin and Krystie Committee on Law Amendments will be called Gibbs. for Monday, June 18, at 10 a.m., to continue with consideration of the Bill 24, The Liquor Obviously, the members in this Legislature Control Amendment and Consequential are now aware why I am so fiercely proud of my Amendments Act. home town, Cranberry Portage, and the people, especially the young people, who live there. I invite all members if they should be travelling or This meeting is in addition to the meeting holidaying in northern Manitoba this summer to already announced for Thursday, June 14, that is stop over in Cranberry Portage and stay a while. this Thursday, at 6:30 p.m. 2884 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

Mr. Speaker: It has been announced that an honourable Minister of Conservation (Mr. additional meeting of the Standing Committee Lathlin). on Law Amendments will be called for Monday, June 18, 2001, at 10 a.m., to continue with *** consideration of Bill 24, The Liquor Control Amendment and Consequential Amendments Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to Act. provide my comments on Bill 28, The Labour­ Sponsored Investment Funds (Various Acts Amended) Act. I would like to begin by This meeting is in addition to the meeting providing some background on labour-sponsored already announced for Thursday, June 14, at investment fu nd legislation in Manitoba. 6:30 p.m.

In 1993, an act was passed to establish the Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you Crocus Investment Fund. The ENSIS Growth please call second readings in the order they Fund is registered under The Labour-Sponsored appear on the Order Paper, to be fo llowed with Venture Capital Corporations Act that was adjourned debates on the fo llowing bills: 19, 39 passed by the Legislature in 1997. The two acts and 27. are modelled after guidelines set by the fe deral government. Yet between 1993 and 1997, these SECOND READINGS guidelines had significantly changed, resulting in two very diffe rent statutes. Bill 28--The Labour-Sponsored Investment * (14:50) Funds (Various Acts Amended) Act Labour-sponsored fundswere established in Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Manitoba to respond to the real need for risk Industry, Trade and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I capital for small and medium-sized Manitoba move, seconded by the Minister of Conservation businesses. In return fo r an annual tax credit of (Mr. Lathlin), that Bill 28. The Labour­ up to $1,500 on a maximum annual investment Sponsored Investment Funds (Various Acts of $5,000, Manitobans have an opportunity to Amended) Act be now read a second time and be invest in small and medium-sized Manitoba referred to a committee of this House. businesses, the professionally managed labour­ sponsored fu nds. Impressive progress has been Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the made since 1993. Based on their most recent honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and annual reports, the Crocus Investment Fund has Mines (Ms. Mihychuk), seconded by the close to $109 million invested in more than 50 honourable Minister of Intergovernmental Manitoba businesses and the ENSIS Growth Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that Bill 28, The Labour­ Fund has over $10.7 million invested in 10 Sponsored Investment Funds (Various Acts Manitoba businesses. Amended) Act be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. The Labour-Sponsored Investment Fund (Various Acts Amended) Act amends three acts: Point of Order The Manitoba Income Tax Act; The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation Act, Ms. Mihychuk: Just on a brief point of order, which is renamed The Crocus Investment Fund Mr. Speaker, at the moment when I verbally Act; and The Labour-Sponsored Venture Capital made my motion, it was the Minister of Corporations Act, which is the governing statute Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) who was in the seat of the ENSIS Growth Fund. so I would like the record to indicate that.

Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the The Government has a number of objectives honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and in bringing these amendments forward to the Mines (Ms. Mihychuk), seconded by the House. As I noted earlier, the Crocus Investment June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2885

Fund and the ENSIS Growth Fund are governed Bi11 31-The Municipal Assessment by separate pieces of legislation. A number of Amendment Act amendments served to make the provisions of both acts consistent to ensure that Crocus and Hon. Jean Friesen (Minister of ENSIS compete on a level playing field. For Intergovernmental Affairs): I move, seconded example, The Crocus Investment Fund Act by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin), enables employees to have deductions for the that Bill 31, The Municipal Assessment purchase of shares of Crocus withheld from their Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur payroll. The Labour-Sponsored Venture Capital !'evaluation municipale, be now read a second Corporations Act, which applies to the ENSIS time and be referred to a committee of this Growth Fund, will be amended so that House. employees will also be able to have payroll deductions fo r purchases of ENS IS. Motion presented.

In order to achieve their objectives, labour­ Ms. Friesen: I am pleased to introduce today sponsored funds must invest a significant portion Bill 31, The Municipal Assessment Amendment of their capital in small and medium-sized Act. Bill 31 stems from the need to enable the Manitoba businesses within a reasonable period Board of Revision and the Municipal Board to of time. The Income Tax Act is being amended reach fair assessments by providing them with to provide fu nds with added flexibility regarding the ability to administer their duties to their fu ll the time that they have to make eligible extent. Currently the Boards of Revision and the investments. At the same time, investment Municipal Board do not have the ability toward pacing requirements of the two fu nds are being a market value be placed on a property under clarified. appeal. That is the basis of assessment across this province. Also it is important that the Government monitor the operations of labour-sponsored We are proposing here to allow the fu nds to ensure that they are adhering to the tribunals, with sufficient and appropriate notice provisions of the legislation. In this regard from the assessor, to both increase and decrease important new reporting and compliance assessments in order for them to reach a fair provisions are being added to The Crocus assessment. I believe that local governments Investment Fund Act. These provisions provide support this amendment, knowing strongly that audit and inspection powers as well as powers to this will assist them in fair procedures for fac ilitate obtaining information from the fu nd. appeals and in reaching fair assessment for all. Municipalities and school divisions across the Offences and applicable penalties are being province, who depend to a large extent on added to the act. Under certain circumstances the property taxes, have always been concerned with Government may declare the sale of shares the importance of fair assessment processes and ineligible for the tax credit. In order to ensure fa ir results. consistency these new reporting and compliance provisions will also replace the current reporting and compliance provisions in The Labour­ What we are proposing through this Sponsored Venture Capital Corporations Act. amendment is to bring Manitoba closer to the principles and practices of other provincial Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I look fo rward to jurisdictions. Manitoba is the only jurisdiction in my colleagues' comments on this important Canada that does not allow its appeal tribunals to legislation. I appreciate your attention. both increase and decrease property assessments Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): I move, seconded where the evidence suggests the assessment may by the Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that be inaccurate. Assessment is about distributing debate be now adjourned. the tax load fairly. It is important that it be done and that it be seen to be done in a fair and Motion agreed to. equitable manner. 2886 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

Finally, these amendments are proposed to may become involved with the legal system. come into effe ct on January I, 2002, to ensure Offenders or victims in the criminal process and citizens have ample advance notice of these litigants in the civil or family processes are all procedural changes. Thank you. protected and supported by the concept of judicial independence. At its core is the fact that Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded the executive arm of government cannot be by the Member for Emerson (Mr. Jack Penner), perceived as interfering with the adjudicative that debate be adjourned. functions of the judiciary.

Motion agreed to. Some of the changes, enhancements and clarifications to the judicial, legislative and Bill 46-The Provincial Court Amendment executive roles have come as a result of and Court of Queen's Bench Amendment Act collaboration and consultation between the executive and the judiciary. Others have been Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice brought about by litigation between the and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I move, provinces and their respective provincial courts. seconded by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin), that Bill 46, The Provincial Court Manitoba has experience in both areas. The Amendment and Court of Queen's Bench amendments we are introducing represent fu rther Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Ia refinements and improvements. This bill Cour provinciale et Ia Loi sur Ia Cour du Bane addresses issues respecting the constitutionality de Ia Reine), be now read a second time and be and independence of the judicial compensation referred to a committee of this House. process that have been the subject of contention between the judges of the Provincial Court and Motion presented. the Government of Manitoba.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to The bill also provides fo r greater rise in the House today to introduce for second transparency in the functions of the court and reading Bill 46. The Provincial Court establishes fo r the first time a fo rmal mechanism Amendment and Court of Queen's Bench for the court to be accountable to the public with Amendment Act. To fully explain what this bill respect to its fu nctions, operations and will do, I need to start with a brief review of the administration. basic principles that provide the foundation fo r a democratic process. As noted, the relationships among the legislative, executive and judicial branches of In our parli amentary system of government government are continuing to evolve. This there are, of course, three branches or arms: means that there will continue to be changes to legislative, executive and judicial. Each has its the structure and fu nction of the court. I have own unique qualities, but each is also connected had the opportunity to read a very interesting to the others. It is the nature of these connections paper by the Honourable J. J. Spigelman, the that has been under careful examination in recent Chief Justice of New South Wales in Australia. years. Over the last decade or so, in particular, This paper was delivered quite recently on the this examination has resulted in some lOth of May, 2001, in Vancouver, British fu ndamental changes in the way the legislative Columbia, to a large international audience and executive branches interact with the judicial which included a number of members of the branch of government. judiciary from across Canada. The paper was entitled Judicial Accountability an d Perhaps the greatest change has been the Performance In di cators. clarification of the concept of judicial independence. This concept may be abstract to *(1 5:00) some, but it is critical that there be a clear understanding about its meaning and impact on In this presentation, Chief Justice Spigelman elected governments, the public and those that made a number of comments with which I am in June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2887 absolute agreement, Mr. Speaker. I would like to justice in which the quality of justice is the share a couple of them with you. "The value of primary consideration cannot be measured. efficiency, of getting value for money has Those requirements, not statistics, must continue received a greater and often dominant salience in to be regarded as the basic mechanism of competition with other values of government judicial accountability." actiVIties such as accessibility, openness, fairness, impartiality, legitimacy, participation, Mr. Speaker, this bill recognizes the honesty and rationality. This change has affected importance of a fresh look periodically at the all aspects of government, including inevitably court's administrative functions by creating the courts. The judiciary cannot and should not terms for the office of chief judge and associate attempt to insulate itself from such changes. chief judges fo r the first time. These terms will Courts have responded and must continue to do affe ct chief judges and associate chief judges so. Citizens are entitled to know whether the who are appointed after the coming into fo rce of arms of government, which they fu nd through this act. Manitoba is the last province to their taxes, are spending that money efficiently introduce term appointments with respect to the and effectively. There is no threat to judicial administrative leadership ofthe court. independence if that is done, although some ways of gathering and reporting such The bill also allows for the appointment of information could constitute such a threat." an acting chief judge in certain circumstances. The chief judge will now have the authority to This bill creates an obligation on the part of appoint an associate chief judge to act in his or the chief judge to provide an annual report her place, as necessary. If the chief judge has not containing information which will promote designated an associate chief judge to act, or if public understanding of the courts and the role the office is vacant, then the minister may of the judiciary. This report will include designate a judge or an associate chief judge to statistical information about the number and serve as acting chief judge. This largely reflects types of cases and proceedings, the availability existing practice. of trial dates, and the average daily use of courtrooms. Mr. Speaker, our provincial court should be representative of the community it serves. The In his presentation, Chief Justice Spigelman bill identifies criteria to ensure the diversity of commented on the importance of this Manitoba's society is taken into account, both in information to the public: "The internal use and the composition of the nominating committee publication of indicators relating to delay and and in the selection of candidates for cost is plainly appropriate. The promotion of appointment. The bill clearly states the attributes efficiency is not just about saving money for we expect to be reflected in the judiciary: government, although that is a perfectly professional excellence, community awareness legitimate consideration. It also involves and personal suitability. substantive issues: the quality of justice being degraded by delay, access to justice, fairness, In Manitoba, we have had 11 years and ultimately, public confidence in the experience with the Judicial Compensation administration of justice. These are proper Committee process, and through those years a matters for measurement and publication." number of areas that require reform have been The legislation will require greater access by identified. These amendments in the bill reflect the public to information about the court's changes to respond to judicial decisions of activities. The administrative accountability to superior courts about the conditions necessary the public required by this bill will identify those for establishing compensation for Provincial issues that are properly matters of concern to the Court judges to reflect experiences within our public with respect to the utilization of province and to ensure that the process is as administrative resources. I am mindful of efficientas possible. additional comments by Chief Justice Spigelman with respect to the need for openness in our This bill provides for definedtime lines and systems of justice: "The requirements of open mechanisms to ensure that the judicial 2888 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 compensation process is completed with due keeping in mind the many significant dispatch. The Judicial Compensation Committee responsibilities of the Legislature, clearly is a three-person committee with one defined time lines have been set. From start to representative of the judges, one representative finish, the process is expected to be completed of the Government, and one additional much earlier than the existing process. appointee. There have been recommendations made by the judges about the need fo r this To recognize the role of masters ofthe Court person to be appointed impartially, and we agree of Queen's Bench and to ensure that the with that suggestion, Mr. Speaker. As a result, compensation principles and independence the bill replaces the existing practice of the requirements are adequately addressed, this bill minister having sole responsibility fo r also provides that masters are treated the same as designating the chair in favour of a standard judges of the Provincial Court with respect to arbitration model. salaries and benefits. This is consistent with the remuneration of masters across the country. Under the new provisions, the two other members of the committee would agree on a I believe that these amendments, Mr. chair. In the rare situation in which the parties Speaker, will enhance the administration of may not be able to agree on the chair, the Dean justice fo r all citizens of Manitoba. I look fo r the of the Faculty of Law will be authorized to support of all members. appoint the chair. To provide some certainty in the process, if the recommendation of the Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I Judicial Compensation Committee regarding move, seconded by the Member fo r Lakeside salaries fo r provincial court judges is equal to or (Mr. Enns), that debate be now adjourned. less than a designated average of salaries paid in three other provinces, then the salary Motion agreed to. recommendation is binding and must be implemented by the Government. Bill 50-The Regional Health Authorities Amendment (Accountability) Act All previous judicial compensation committees, that is, those committees being Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. chaired by Messrs. Baizley in 1991, Green in Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of 1995 and Green again in 1998, have Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that recommended the average salary in New Bill 50, The Regional Health Authorities Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan as Amendment (Accountability) Act; Loi modifiant the appropriate level of compensation. These Ia Loi sur les offices regionaux de Ia sante provinces are similar to Manitoba based on (responsabilites), be now read a second time and population base, working conditions, cost of referred to a committee of this House. living and ability to pay. Motion presented. If the salary recommendations fr om the committee are greater than the designated Mr. Chomiak: Je voudrais dire bienvenue a average, they will be referred to a standing tous les etudiants du Quebec qui sont venus ici committee and ultimately to the Legislative pour regarder cette assemblee. Assembly. When the judicial compensation committee process was introduced 11 years ago, Tr anslation I do not believe that any of the parties expected that it would be as adversarial as it has been. The I would like to say welcom e to all the students provisions in this bill are intended to rebalance from Quebec who have come here to obs erve the process. The bill provides direction and this assembly. power to the compensation committee to investigate on its own instead of relying solely English on the information placed before it by the Government and the judges. To ensure that the En meme temps, Monsieur le president, at process moves as quickly as possible and the same time, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2889 bring before this House a bill, The Regional accountability, the principle of leadership and Health Authorities Amendment (Accountability) the principle responsibility with that of the role Act. As the name of the act suggests, this and function of fa ith-based institutions that have legislation is another step in completing the fo rmed such an integral part of our health care regionalization of health care service delivery so system fo r a considerable period of time. that it is effective and efficient in providing Manitobans with care. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a fe w minutes to go through some key sections in the Mr. Speaker, the recently released Thomas proposed amendments for the benefit of all committee report on the Pediatric Cardiac members. The regional health authority is Surgery Inquest recommended completing responsible fo r providing fo r the delivery and region-alization to provide consistent operational administration of health services in Manitoba. accountability structures within the health care The Minister of Health has the power under the system. This legislation helps move that effort pre-existing legislation to issue binding along. When regionalization occurred in the late directives to regional health authorities. These '90s, there was a process that was put in place. regional health authorities in tum must comply Obviously the function and the ability to with those directives to carry out their regionalize cannot take place overnight. It responsibility. requires a transition. We have been engaged in that transition since we came to office. Mr. Speaker, what this act does is effectively, to a certain extent, take that

* (15:10) delegated power and provide it to the operative arm of the health care system, who in tum have This legislation, as it implies, will enable us that delegated power in order to issue directives to move the concept of regionalization fo rward. dealing with matters of operation across the In keeping with the recommendations of the system. Regionalization in Manitoba preserves a Thomas committee, in keeping with advice that significant role fo r health corporations with their has been given to this department, in addition, as own boards of directors, and that is reflected in well, there will be other initiatives that we are the legislation. undertaking with respect to the reorganization of the department to be more akin to that of a Mr. Speaker, agreements between regional Department of Health that is responsible fo r health authorities and health corporations policy and accountability matters. provide, in the normal course, a sufficient framework fo r resolving issues that arise as The particular legislation in question regional health authorities carry out their balances regionalized health care delivery with responsibilities. There may be exceptional the role of fac ility boards to provide co­ circumstances in which issues arise and cannot, ordinated services fo r Manitoba. Regional health despite reasonable efforts, be resolved within the authorities will have the ability to issue binding framework of those agreements. There is a need directives to health care corporations in the areas to strengthen and clarify lines of accountability of planning, resource allocation standards and within a regionalized structure, a need that was other activities that affect overall health service recognized, as I said earlier, in the Report of the delivery in a region. These directives may be Review and the Implementation Committee fo r used only when the matter cannot be resolved the report of the Manitoba Pediatric . Cardiac using the normal mechanism fo r resolving Surgery Inquest. disputes. This bill respects the unique ways that health care services are provided. It allows fo r Under this legislation, a regional health co-ordinated health care delivery that is cost­ authority may give a direction to a health effective and efficient. This bill also recognized corporation that provides health services within the unique nature and the Manitoba nature and its health region. A direction given to a health methodology with respect to our regionalization. corporation may only be given in matters that It is an attempt to balance competing principles have a region-wide impact on a regional health and competing interests, the principle of authority's responsibility to co-ordinate and 2890 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

integrate health services and facilities in its province of Manitoba. So this bill attempts and, I health region, including planning, standards and believe, successfully achieves the balance the allocation of financial and other resources. between providing fo r delegated authority and protecting rights at the same time. It is important to note that a direction must also be consistent and respectful of the religious Mr. Speaker, under the consultation process or spiritual beliefs that are an important part of and the review of this bill, we discussed and met many health corporations. The fo llowing with many individuals and organizations in the principles are in the legislation. The health community, have had many discussions with the corporation may continue to respond to the interfaith organizations, and this bill meets with spiritual and religious needs of its residents or their approval in terms of the balance that it patients and to provide care and services achieves. It also meets with the approval of the consistent with the fu ndamental principles of regional health authorities and, in particular, the that religion or fa ith. The health corporation may situation in Winnipeg which is unique from that continue to own and operate its facilities. A outside of Winnipeg to the extent that in the vast fa ith-based facility will keep its identity as a majority of cases outside of Winnipeg faith-based location and maintain its governance devolution has occurred with respect to with a board appointed or elected by the corporations, and, essentially, there are not fo r religious organization. the most part autonomous boards functioning outside of Winnipeg, although there are Arbitration is provided fo r with this act to exceptions to that but fo r the most part, whereas determine matters where a faith-based fac ility in Winnipeg with the process of regionalization, believes that a direction threatens its fa ith-based boards were left in place in a variety of fashions identity. A direction must be in writing and is across the system. subject to a number of conditions, including a direction cannot be given in connection with What this does is it tries to achieve those activities not fu nded by the regional health two goals and those two aims, Mr. Speaker. We authority, and a direction cannot require a health believe it also therefore serves to meet the corporation to sell or close a fac ility or change challenge and meet the recommendations that the composition of the ·board of directors of the were contained in the Thomas committee report corporation. that suggested and recommended to us that we move fo rward in the process ofregionalization. The bill also provides that a regulation may be made respecting the sharing of personal I have indicated, Mr. Speaker, many times in health information and other information to this Chamber, inside and outside, that we are resolve complaints. That particular amendment, going to be developing regionalization fu rther Mr. Speaker, is designed to fac ilitate the along the path that has been recommended in resolution of complaints and to assist in the numerous reports, while at the same time we are implementation of a province-wide co-ordinated very conscious and recognize the role and complaint resolution mechanism, something that fu nction of faith-based institutions and the is operational in other jurisdictions and has been benefit that they bring to the health care sector something that we have been looking at and and system. So this is an attempt to, and I trying to build on over the past 20 months. believe successfully, achieve a balance, authority and a responsibility as well as a recognition of Mr. Speaker, this particular piece of the very unique role and fu nction of fa ith-based legislation is an attempt, and I think institutions. successfully, to balance the principle of accountability and responsibility on the part of regional health authorities and to give them the I hope, Mr. Speaker, that this overview of tools to meet that accountability and the legislation is helpful to members of the responsibility. At the same time, it preserves the House. I recommend this legislation, and I look very unique nature of the fa ith-based institutions fo rward to the continuing debate and discussion that are so prevalent and so important in the of this matter and speedy passage through this fabric of our health care institutions in the Chamber. ------

June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2891

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. demonstrates the fundamental difference between us and them. I mean, they are socialists, Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I move, and we are Conservatives. I believe in free seconded by the Member fo r Fort Whyte (Mr. enterprise. It is an amazing thing. If you put a Loewen), that debate be adjourned. cow on a piece of land that the individual farmer owns, it gains weight much quicker than if you Motion agreed to. put the same cow on a piece of land the Governmentowns. Would you believe that? It is DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS true. If you put a cow on land that the Government owns, it produces 3.6 litres of milk Bi11 19-The Crown Lands Amendment Act daily; if I own it, it produces 4. 7 litres of milk daily. It is just that simple. Of course, my Mr. Speaker: To resume debate on second socialist fr iends will never understand that. reading, Bill 19, The Crown Lands Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les terres The trouble is too many Canadians do not domaniales), standing in the name of the understand that. Too many Canadians, particu­ honourable Member fo r Lakeside. larly our younger Canadians, our university­ educated Canadians, think that government Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I am should be running everything. That is the great prepared to have this bill move to committee. It debate, the big difference between why I am a is a bill that contains some modest amendments Conservative and these people here are to an act that has governed and administered socialists, but also that is the reason why the some six million acres of Crown land that the province of Ontario is the richest province in this Department of Agriculture has under its country. It is also going to be a reason why jurisdiction fo r the use of agriculture, primarily British Columbia will become even richer, cattle producers, throughout different parts of the because they finally threwthe socialists out. It is province. such a simple little matter that people fail to understand that we do not educate our children * (15:20) properly about, but that happens to be the truth, I will be looking fo rward at committee to be and Crown lands happens to be a good little able to ensure that fundamental aspects of that example of it. act are not, in fact, being tinkered with or changed, but with the staff available at I speak with vested interest. I have some committee we will be able to, and I am sure a 1600 acres of Crown land that I have had fo r number of my colleagues will want to look at many years. I have tried to purchase it, but the diffe rent aspects of this particular legislation. Government will not allow me. The difference is this: If I could purchase it, I would invest It is a small bill, Mr. Speaker, having to do considerably more money. It was always my with, as I said, the administration of Crown land, dream that-and I should not be saying this but it is extremely important. The beef industry because they are going to depict it wrong-if I is a growing industry in the province of was approaching my retirement from public life, Manitoba, and if this land is administered but I want to hastily add that I am just entering properly with some understanding of the my middling years, but it was my hope that I entrepreneurial nature of cattle raising, that there would begin raising bison, becoming a bison needs to be stability in these leases and there farmer. Now, to do that calls fo r considerably needs to be opportunities fo r sale of these leases. more greater investment for the facilities, fo r I know that the current Minister of Agriculture fencing and so fo rth. It will cost upwards, about, (Ms. Wowchuk) when I was Minister of I would have to lay out $10,000 or $12,000 in Agriculture used to bring fo rward on numerous fe ncing if I were to go into bison. Am I occasions the specific requests why specific comfortable on doing it on land that these bunch pieces of Crown lands were not possible fo r sale. of socialists own? No, and that they can take it It is a fu nny thing, Mr. Speaker, and, you away from me with a stroke of a pen. So what is know, it is a small bill, but that is what the result? I defer. I put off. I do not go into 2892 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I3, 200I bison, but you multiply that over the six million concerns addressed at committee when the acres that is available fo r this kind of minister has the opportunity of having her development in agriculture, and that is the Crown lands director present and other senior diffe rence between how this land can be staff of the department. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. administered. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, thank I am not suggesting a sale of this Crown you fo r allowing me to place a few comments on land. These leases, when properly administered the record with respect to Bill 19. I think, as my under the right type of philosophy, are very colleague from Lakeside indicated, the bill is a useful to agriculture. I was very pleased, along relatively small bill. It does not contain a lot. It with my colleague the then, how soon you allows fo r a director of Crown lands. It allows fo rget, my good fr iend from Arthur, James fo r the director to make decisions with respect to Downey, who was then-Minister of Agriculture, agricultural Crown land leases and it allows for we, in 1977, during Sterling Lyon's government, appeals to be taken back to the director. made fundamental changes to this specific bill. We made it possible fo r a long-term lessor, you However, it also affords me the opportunity could not be a casual lessor, if you had leased to also share with colleagues in the Legislature the land fo r five years, that you could purchase the importance of agricultural Crown land to the it. province and the importance of agricultural Crown land to the livestock industry in this An Honourable Member: But you did not go province. Agricultural Crown lands provide a lot far enough, Harry. of opportunities fo r grazing. Some of them provide production of fo rage. These together Mr. Enns: Well, that is the trouble. We are support what is a very healthy cow-calf industry Conservatives. We are not radicals. Then, of in this province. As of today, and I think that course, we always live in the hope that we will many of the policies revert back to the previous be there fo r a while, that we would not have a government, we have the largest cow herd in the bunch of bandits take over the administration of history of this province. We have a growth in the this fair province, you know, in the dark of livestock industry. night. It was about II:30 when I finally conceded that they had beat us, you see. Of course the question could be asked: Why is there substantial growth in the industry? There We made other changes. We made changes are a number of factors, Mr. Speaker, as to why that said, we said that, when a rancher, cattleman this industry has grown like it has. was retiring and he had maybe 1000 acres, 1200 acres of his own land, coupled with several Of course probably the major impact is the thousand acres of leased land, that that could be fact that we went through and the fr ee trade sold as an economic unit because it was agreement was struck. Secondly, the important fo r a successful beef operation that the abolishment of the Crow resulted in the fact that economics of scale be understood. Not these there seemed to be more potential fo r the fr iends, no, no, they would like to parcel it out in production of cattle in Manitoba. As a result, this quarter-section lots. You do not build a ranch, is a sector that has grown very substantially and you do not build a cattle industry that way, Mr. contributes a major portion of our agricultural Speaker. gross domestic product.

So, while I have indicated, and I am quite It is important that agricultural Crown lands aware, that other colleagues will want to make in this province be maintained in a sustainable some comments with respect to this bill, I am manner that will provide fo r the long-term future giving the minister, who-well, I better not say growth of the beef cattle industry. that, because that is against the rules. You cannot comment on her presence. It is the At this point I would like to just diverge fo r Minister of Agriculture's bill, I understand, but I a little bit of time, going back to when the am looking fo rward to having some of these Canada Land Inventory was in the process of June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2893 inventorying all of Canada's soils. It was see the expansion of the sheep industry in completed on a coast-to-coast basis I believe Manitoba. within about a five-year to eight-year span. Mr. Speaker, I want to keep my remarks * (15:30) fairly short. This legislation provides fo r a director to make more decisions at the front line, All soils across the country were classified which I think is better for those lessees of in seven major classes, 1 being the best soil, 7 agricultural Crown land, and also it allows fo r a being the poorest. There was also a class 0, faster appeal process to take place fo r those who which was organic soil. Most of the agricultural want to appeal the decision of the director. Crown lands that we have in the province right now would probably fit into the class 4, class 5, So, Mr. Speaker, I am quite interested in class 6 type range of soils in Manitoba. What I hearing some of the comments when this bill would like to see right now is that the class 1, 2, reaches committee and look fo rward to hearing and 3, although they are right now utilized fo r the input fr om the other colleagues in the House. the production of grain, there have been some Thank you. reports produced suggesting that in a province like Manitoba perhaps the only soils that should Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready fo r the be used fo r the production of edible foods would question? The question before the House is be the class 1 soils. Class 2 and class 3 and second reading of Bill 19, The Crown Lands preferably all of the class 3, maybe some of the Amendment Act. class 2 could still be used fo r food production, edible fo od production, but for the most part a Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the lot of them could be used fo r fo rage production. motion? That even expands the opportunities fo r a livestock industry in this province. Some Honourable Members: Agreed.

The one species of livestock that comes to Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. mind is the sheep industry. I know that many times over the last number of years we often Bill 39-The Archives and Recordkeeping Act talked about Manitoba being a sheep-free province-and that was kind of with tongue-in­ Mr. Speaker: To resume debate, Bill 39, The cheek-but the sheep industry has a tremendous Archives and Recordkeeping Act (Loi sur les future in this province, a tremendous future, and archives), standing in the name of the it works in well with the beef cattle industry honourable Member fo r Seine River. when you are going through a rotational grazing program, that the sheep and cattle mix well Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. together. They do it in other countries. So Speaker, I am pleased to put some comments on Manitoba has a tremendous potential to support this bill, and I want to start by first saying that a very vibrant sheep industry. there are several sections in the new act that were not fo und in the old act. I understand there Unfortunately, Canadians, as a people, do will be some cost implications, and I will be not eat enough lamb on a per capita basis, and asking the minister more specific questions in we have to work on that aspect to get people to committee. eat more lamb. But there is nothing better, Mr. Speaker, than a barbecued lamb chop done on One of the areas in which there will be the barbecue. It is quite good, quite good. So I significant new costs that were not in the old act am putting in my little plug here fo r the sheep is in the appointment of a new full-time position, industry in this province, and I hope that the as I understand it, the archivist of Manitoba. I Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) will will have, as I indicated, several questions take a close look at this industry, and perhaps the relating to the current fees that are being department can put a policy in place that could assessed. I recognize they are governed by 2894 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

regulation, and my questions will be relative to * * * any increases in the existing fe es. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House I recognize that there were several changes Leader): Mr. Speaker, just before calling Bill being made due to the fact, primarily, that this 27, The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act (2), was a very outdated piece of legislation that would you please call Bill 7, The Manitoba dated back to 1967. This new act now also has Hydro Amendment Act. consequential amendments that impact on several other acts. While I have the spreadsheet, Bill 7-The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act I could not find in the spreadsheet all of the potential sections that will be impacted by the Mr. Speaker: To resume debate on Bill 7, The enacting of this new piece of legislation. Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur !'Hydro-Manitoba), standing in the The other change that I probably will be name of the honourable Member fo r Minnedosa. asking the minister questions of is the provisions in the new act which assign the fu nctions Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): I am previously carried out by the Documents pleased to be able to speak to Bill 7, which is the Committee to other committees or groups now bill that discusses the fu ture of Manitoba Hydro, within the new process. I know I cannot refer and we are prepared to send this on to committee specificallyto the section, so I am trying to word today. This biii is more about political posturing it. I will also have a fe w questions on the other than anything else. We are in agreement that this act that is being impacted by the introduction of Crown corporation is certainly the jewel of the this new act, and that is The Financial Manitoba Crowns. We are pleased with the Administration Act. My questions will be developments that Manitoba Hydro has made specific to the recovery or possession of a over the decades as a very significant part of life government record. here in the province of Manitoba.

In conclusion, will have questions * (15:40) regarding Cabinet's responsibility that was contained in the old act, giving Cabinet fu ll There are many issues surrounding Hydro responsibility to make regulations on matters that we will have an opportunity to discuss at dealing with the classification of documents. committee on Monday when we look at the That classification of documents, as I see it now, annual report. We believe there are many other will still give the Cabinet that regulation-making issues that the Minister responsible fo r Hydro authority, but there are some specific references (Mr. Selinger) should be dealing with, including in the old act that are not contained in the new sending many of the issues before Manitoba act. Hydro to the Public Utilities Board, which is the fo rum that has been structured in Manitoba to With that, Mr. Speaker, we are prepared to look at the activities of this Crown corporation, send this particular bi ll to committee. Thank not only to do with rates but also with future you. developments. I would like to have the Premier (Mr. Doer) Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready fo r the confirm what I think he said yesterday, but I question? The question before the House is think then he maybe backed away on it, that second reading of Biii 39, The Archives and there are plans afoot within the Crown Recordkeeping Act. corporation to do a considerable amount of expansion with new projects being looked at, Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the including the Gull Rapids generating station, motion? also Wuskwatim and Notigi.

Some Honourable Members: Agreed. I think we are looking at that corporation Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. and its board and the Government, in fact, June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2895 moving ahead with billions of dollars, think Manitobans want some say in how that potentially, of new development in the North, excess revenue is being used. and we think it is very important that there be a process in place which gives Manitobans an The major users of hydro-electric power in opportunity to look at these plans and to Manitoba are companies like lnco and others, understand them. So far this Government has and they are saying maybe there is an been very reluctant to enter into a public process opportunity to lower our rates, too. I think that is with anything to do with Manitoba Hydro, and I a fair request, that they feel a little bit left believe in Question Period yesterday the Premier outside of the process when they have asked this (Mr. Doer) said that any new developments Government to review the rates of the major would go before the Public Utilities Board. users to see if perhaps their rates could be Later, I think, maybe he backtracked and said lowered. They have been rejected, and they are maybe not the Public Utilities Board but some asking that the process through the Public public process. Utilities Board be used. I think it is a fair request. I think it is very, very important, before a Crown corporation spends billions of dollars on If the Crown corporation continues to have expansion, that Manitobans are given an these buoyant revenues, Manitobans want to opportunity to look at these plans, to act as that have some say in how much of that is used for check and balance, whether these are necessary, expansion, how much of it would be used for whether they should be fa st-tracked or whether debt reduction, how much of it would be used they should be on the agenda for later on. I for lowering rates. There is a lot of flexibility in believe the Public Utilities Board is an excellent the revenue that is garnered by Manitoba Hydro. venue to do that, and this Government has to We now have a Crown corporation with a $6.2- stop treating Manitobans as second-class citizens billion debt, and none of that money is being and leading them away from the process, redirected into paying debt down. I know that because Manitobans very much want to be the Government is very reluctant to comply with involved in the process. the balanced budget legislation. Each one of them in the House, when that was passed in the Fundamental to new development has to be mid-90s, spoke against it, made fun of it. Then, sales commitments made to other jurisdictions. in the most recent election, they have all All Manitobans are pleased that there is a strong embraced it. revenue stream from export sales. In 1999-2000, some $376 million in profit was made through If in fact they have embraced it and believe these sales. I think it is important that in the balanced budget legislation and the debt Manitobans have some say in how this repayment, they should also use some of those burgeoning excess revenue is going to be used in same principles and practices and apply them to the fu ture. We have seen a government that has Manitoba Hydro, because I think there is an taken, through the water rental rates, over $100 opportunity there not only to use all of that million into general revenue, and I believe that is excess revenue for expenditure but to use some the highest amount ever taken out of the Crown of it for debt reduction and some of it for corporation for general revenue, a time when all lowering rates. I would urge the Government of their other revenue is very buoyant. They and the Minister responsible for Hydro to meet chose not only to expend that new revenue but to with that major users group and to listen and to add new revenue from Manitoba Hydro very heed what they say and to send the use of that much over and above what previous excess revenue to the Public Utilities Board so governments have taken out of that Crown that Manitobans will have an opportunity to corporation. review that revenue and have a say in how it is being used. As well, they are using some of that excess profit to build a particular road, and they are also So I would ask the Government to, again, using some of it to convert the coal burning have these new initiatives explored by the Public generating stations in Brandon and Selkirk. So I Utilities Board. Some of the new development 2896 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 that is being contemplated would cost Hydro in modifiant Ia Loi sur !'Hydro-Manitoba), standing excess of $3 billion. That is a lot of money. in the name of the honourable Member for St. Legislation passed in 1997 gives them some Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau). fr eedom to seek partners in the new construction. I notice that there are a number of Is there leave fo r the bill to remain standing First Nations who have shown some interest in in the name of the honourable Member for St. partnering up to 25 percent of those projects. I Norbert? think Manitobans want to get more information about the agreements that have been signed, that Some Honourable Members: Leave. they would like to know what the 25% contribution will be. I think it is something that Mr. Speaker: Leave? It will remain standing in the Minister responsible for Hydro should have the name of the honourable Member fo r St. made available to Manitobans before this. Norbert.

The conversions of the plants in Brandon * (15:50) and Selkirk have also been questioned. There is a report suggesting that the expenses with the Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): A conversion in Brandon are excessive. I believe household in The Pas or in Lac du Bonnet wiJI Cross Lake First Nation has submitted a report pay the same basic rate for hydro service as a that they had commissioned showing that a household in Winnipeg. What is wrong with comparable expansion at another location in that, Mr. Speaker? What on earth could be North America was done for much less. So I bugging the members opposite? What on earth would ask the Minister responsible for Hydro to could motivate the members opposite to not provide information so that Manitobans can agree with that statement? make up their own mind on this particular expansion. Members opposite can take out the communities of The Pas and Lac du Bonnet. At this time, then, we are prepared to have They can substitute in their own communities if Bill 7 proceed to the committee stage and are they like. I could do that right now. A household prepared to let it go and have any Manitobans in Roblin or a household in Dauphin wiii pay the who wish to speak to this initiative have an same basic rate fo r hydro service as a household opportunity to do that at the committee stage. in Winnipeg. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would encourage every MLA in this Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready fo r the building to do that, to take a look at their question? constituencies and start plugging in their own communities and start understanding the benefits An Honourable Member: Question. of this bill, the benefits of this Government's approach, a fair-minded, even-handed, equal Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is approach to the benefits of our Manitoba Hydro. second reading of Biii 7, The Manitoba Hydro I would encourage members opposite to plug in Amendment Act. Is it the pleasure of the House the communities of Killarney and Souris. I to adopt the motion? would encourage members opposite to include Vita and Gimli. The list is endless: Steinbach Some Honourable Members: Agreed. and Brandon, Stonewall and Melita.

Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. You know, we hear a Jot about how we have to support the people in the southwest part of our Bi11 27-The Manitoba Hydro Amendment province because they have had it tough fo r a Act (2) while, and, you know, they have had it tough, Mr. Speaker. Here is a good opportunity for Mr. Speaker: To resume debate on Bill 27, The everybody. It does not matter what side of the Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act (2) (Loi no. 2 House you are on on this debate. It does not June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2897 matter whether you are on the government side keeping up with current events. Especially when of the J1ouse or are sitting in opposition. This is I am a candidate in an election, I do pay a little your opportunity to support something that is bit of attention as to what all the parties have really important to rural Manitobans. This is been saying. I am sure members opposite are not your big opportunity. much different than that. I am sure there are members opposite who are smarter than I and Judging by what I have seen in the last better able to keep up to date on current events. I couple of days in Question Period, I am afraid think they kind of knew that we had promised some of my friends across the way are going to this in the last election. As a matter of fact, I am miss this opportunity, and they are not going to real sure that they knew exactly what we were stand up for the Minnedosas and the Neepawas promising in the last election. of the world, that they are going to miss that opportunity. I want, right early on in this debate, I think they are actually a little bit jealous to encourage them and to invite them in to the that we had thought to do this for rural good news that we are bringing to rural Manitobans, but it was not that members Manitoba. opposite did not have their chance to do it. I know that, during their 11 years in power, they I should mention that I am speaking on The thought about it. I know they talked about it. As Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act and that I do my colleague from Flin Flon says, they mused fully support that act, because it is good for about it. Did they have the courage to go through Manitoba. It is good in a couple of ways. First with it? No. They paid it lip-service. They did and foremost, it is going to reduce rates for not come through on it for the people of people living in rural Manitoba, farm families Manitoba. And why not? trying to eke out a living out on the land in rural parts of our province. It is good for small There were a number of myths that businesses in Manitoba. It is also good for some developed about the fo rmer government over the of the larger businesses, to be quite frank. 11 years that they were in power in this province. One of the myths was that they could I noticed too in Question Period the last actually handle money and that they were good couple of days that the Opposition had this financial managers and that they knew all about strange view on what the word "secrecy" is all the economy and that they were good for· the about. We were accused of being secretive about economy. That was a myth. We fo und that out. our plans. The quote that I used at the beginning The Provincial Auditor says it was a myth. The when I first stood to speak just a fe w minutes Provincial Auditor would not even give a stamp ago, the quote was "A household in The Pas or of approval to their budgets when they brought Lac du Bonnet will pay the same basic rate for them forth. They said the budget was not very hydro service as a household in Winnipeg." That honest. It is not that they could handle money, is a direct quote from the Speech from the but they portrayed the myth that they could. Throne. They keep trying that even today. Ooh, that is secretive, Mr. Speaker. That is a Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Sp eaker, in the secret agenda. That is a hidden agenda, I guess, Chair because nobody gets to read that document, right? Everybody in this room here today was The other myth, and I can say this as a here and present when that Speech from the person who has lived in rural Manitoba just Throne said those very words. That is not about all my life and I have represented now for secretive. That is open government. six years rural constituents. I can say, without a I am sure that some of the members opposite moment's hesitation, that another myth portrayed heard in the election campaign when the Leader by the former government and today's of our party, today's Premier, talked about this Opposition was that somehow they were the best on the election campaign trail. I heard it. I to represent rural Manitoba and the hopes and consider myself fairly average when it comes to the dreams and the aspirations of rural intelligence and fairly average when it comes to Manitobans. 2898 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

An Honourable Member: Absolutely. province and get on the bandwagon of doing something positive, something tangible for rural Mr. Struthers: Again the tenn "lip-service" Manitobans, unlike your II years of previous comes to mind. The Member for Lakeside (Mr. government. Enns) thinks it is a given. He buys into this attitude that it was the Conservative Party's God­ * (16:00) given right to reign in rural Manitoba. Well, any day of the week I will take what we have done as When we introduced the doctor recruitment a government over the last 19 months and I will and retention plan, a doctor recruitment plan put it up against the II years, II long, dry, hard specifically designed to help rural and northern years that that fonner government ruled in this communities attract and keep doctors in their province. I will compare it any day of the week towns and in their smaller centres in rural beginning with Bill 27, beginning with The Manitoba and in northern Manitoba, where was Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act because not the Opposition? They should have been standing only is it a financial benefit fo r people living up and saying that is a good idea; we are going outside of Winnipeg, it is a symbol. It represents to support that. What was their response? rural Manitobans wanting in. It represents rural Nothing. There was no support there for this Manitobans being considered on par with other progressive far-reaching plan. It was a plan Manitobans, not only rural Manitobans but actually to backfill a decision that had been northerners as well. made a number of years ago by the previous government to cut 15 positiOns at the I also point to another area that the previous universities, 15 positions available for rural governmentspent a lot of time giving lip service students to go and train in medicine, educate and to afid that was this hard line, law and order, we get ready to go back into our small communities are going to clean up rural Manitoba-kind-of and set up practices, 15 positions a year less approach that the previous government took. Mr. because of a decision of the members opposite Deputy Speaker, after the last two budgets, for when they were in government. This the first time in II years there is enough money Government has moved to fill those positions. being put forward by our Government to allow This Government has done something tangible the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to come to a for rural Manitoba. full complement of staff in rural Manitoba. That is something that the previous government could One of the long-standing issues that I know have done but unfortunately they chose not to. I the Member fo r Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), cannot explain why they chose not to. Maybe our current Agriculture Minister, had been they thought it was not a priority. Maybe they talking about for many years, year after year, thought well, people think we are the naturally since before my time in this Legislature, governing rural Manitoba party and we do not throughout the whole course of the '90s, was the need to. farm and rural stress line. Members opposite had an opportunity to provide that service for the I do not know what their motivation was to fann communities and fo r people struggling let down rural Manitobans that way, but I am along in small communities. proud to say we came through for rural Manitoba, 622 RCMP officers. That is the fu ll Agriculture is so important to our province, complement. My advice to members opposite on Mr. Deputy Speaker. Agriculture is very this one is two-fold. First of all, make sure that important, and it is under a considerable amount you use your cruise control because there are a of stress. Members opposite, I know, know this. lot more RCMP officers out there now to catch So what was their response? How can you you if you are not, and if you are speeding you explain the actions taken by the previous have more of a chance of getting caught. I government to cut and slash, get rid of this stress should include myself in that advice as well. But line that was being used by farmers and by my other advice is to learn from those mistakes people living in communities? What did they that you made in the past, change your do? They cut it. It is no different than when the opposition to equalizing hydro rates in this previous government advertised for another line June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2899 to help kids who were under stress and then did Manitobans on a company that was owned by not put anybody on the other end of the line to Manitobans. That is the Tory approach. answer the phone. It is lip service we saw from the previous government. Let us look at Hydro, the tale of another Crown corporation and the approach of our They now have a chance to redeem Government not to sell off Hydro to friends, not themselves in the eyes of rural Manitobans. I to give up the levers of decision making when it think it would be very therapeutic for members comes to a Crown corporation, not to favour one opposite to vote in favour of this Manitoba part of this province over another but to take a Hydro Amendment Act. I think it would make Crown corporation that is making a profit and them feel better for what they did to Manitobans use that profit for the betterment of all when they sold the Manitoba Telephone System. Manitobans. What is wrong with that, Mr. I think what members opposite can do is they Deputy Speaker? Why would a political party can look on it as an act of atonement, a partial not favour that approach? act of atonement, because the money that they are going to save every month through In my constituency and in many of the equalizing hydro rates is not quite as much as constituencies of people across the way, my what that government cost rural Manitobans constituents will save approximately $10.11 a when they privatized the Manitoba Telephone month. Some other parts of the province will System. save $2.69 a month. These are real benefits for people, Mr. Deputy Speaker. So they can partially make it up to Manitobans by supporting this, partially. If It is absolutely unfair to continue on with the members across do not have the courage to take policy that we have now that we have inherited that step, just relax and be confident and feel from the previous government. This is the good that your provincial government is going to previous government's opportunity to get on the do it for you, because this, Mr. Deputy Speaker, right side of this issue. I would very definitely makes a lot of sense, and it makes it so that it is encourage members across to step forward and a lot more fair in this province. vote with us on this amendment. I am sure that once they hear from their constituents, if they So do not give us these excuses about listen to those constituents and if they re!illY secrecy, and do not try to fe ign your concern for think about what is important in this province the Public Utilities Board. Are you with us or are and if they really take a look at this from the you against us? Are you for equalization of vantage point of fairness, from the perspective of hydro rates, or are you against it? So far, your treating all Manitobans equally and fairly, I am actions show that you are against it. I believe sure they can come to no other conclusion other you should see the light. I think you should than voting in favour of the changes we have come fo rward and say it is a good idea; we are proposed to The Manitoba Hydro Act. onside; let us get on with it and let us do it. So with those few words, Mr. Deputy The bigger issue I think that the members Speaker, I would like to thank members for opposite need to deal with is this tale of two listening and look fo rward to hearing more companies that I think has plagued them for advice from my colleagues in this Legislature. awhile and I am predicting will plague them for Thanks. a little while into the future, two approaches when it comes to Crown corporations. On the Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Mr. Deputy one hand is the Progressive Conservative Party's Speaker, I listened with great interest as my approach, as shown in their sale of the Manitoba colleague fr om Dauphin-Roblin put some Telephone System, in which they sold off the eloquent words on record and inspired me to say telephone system at bargain-basement prices, a fe w words myself, but I will be brief. At least made a fe w of their wealthier fr iends happy but that is my intention. cost the people of Manitoba a lot. Up go the rates, down goes the employment in our The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act, Bill communities and no more decision making by 27, is a progressive bill. It is fair. It is long 2900 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 overdue. It is not as if we are reinventing the It is especially symbolic but more than wheel or something that has never been done symbolic in northern Manitoba for many, many before. In fact, there are three jurisdictions in reasons. It is more than just the dollars. this country, Quebec, with Quebec Hydro, B.C. and Nova Scotia, that already have equalized The fact is that hydro is generated in hydro rates. It seem like an obviously fair and northern Manitoba, in that region mainly. decent thing to do. I am surprised that members Northerners always fe lt that if hydro is generated opposite did not seize upon this opportunity in in their backyards there should be some kind of the II years they had to put this into effect. compensatory mechanism. They always have fe lt they should be paying less, not more, than At the present, before the bill comes into Winnipeg. Up to now we have been paying more effect, there are three rates my colleague has than Winnipeg. We would prefer to pay less, of alluded to. In Zone I, which is Winnipeg, the course. That would get us into the differential rates will remain the same. In Zone 2, which is rate structure again, but we will certainly settle the medium-density zones of I 00-metered for paying the same amount. Why should we services or more with at least 15 customers per not? I think it is a step in the right direction. line, that would include a lot of villages and smaller towns across this province. There is also I am, like I said, really shocked that Zone 3, which is low density, which would members opposite would be so callous as not to include farm families typically. Zone I will see the positive effects of this, not only in remain unchanged, as I said earlier, and Zone 2, northern Manitoba but particularly in rural people could save as much as $2.69 a month. Manitoba, where the greatest benefits will be That would include a lot of the little towns and realized. villages that I talked about. Zone 3, however, and these tend to be farm families, would save My colleague has alluded to this, that $IO.II approximately average monthly, which members opposite thought about equalizing is, you know, if you do your math, $120-plus a hydro rates. They mused about it. They mused year. about it out loud, but they also then mused about not selling MTS. They did that. They mused Members opposite talk about farm families about graduated drivers' licences, but they never having difficulties, particularly in southwestern did anything about that either. So the musing Manitoba. Well, this is more than a symbolic alone was not good enough and now that we are gesture. It is not a huge amount of money, I actually doing what they mused about, they admit, but $120 in your pocket is better than a seem to be a little angry. There is that old-dog­ kick in the rear end, I would submit. So I am in-the-manger attitude that if we did not do the really surprised that members opposite are not positive thing, it cannot be positive. Well, it is vociferous in supporting this bill. never too late to join the band. I would suggest that you see the positive aspects of this bill, and I * (16: IO) suspect that the rural people are going to hold you accountable if you vote against this bill, are I should point out that there is a fo urth zone, going to say to you: Why is it that you are voting which is the diesel rate zone, in four northern against an $II or a $10.11 cut a month in my communities, and that is not affected by this hydro bill? It would seem absurd. If you legislation at present. seriously care about rural folk then you would certainly support this bill. Now, people will argue that this amount of money is trivial, but I point out that it is $I4.4 million a year. So it is not trivial. It is more than I also mentioned earlier, Mr. Deputy a symbolic act. I mean, we could sit back and do Speaker, that we talk about the three zones in nothing, but I still think, you know, as the old terms of paying hydro bills, the Winnipeg zone, Chinese proverb, it is better to light a candle the medium density and the low density. There is than curse the darkness. We are doing also a fo urth zone, the diesel zone in northern something. It is positive and it is in the right Manitoba. That includes the communities of direction. Shamattawa, Tadoule Lake, Lac Brochet and June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2901

Brochet. In those communities, electricity is still a decade actually of neglect. They certainly generated by diesel and that is enormously appreciate what we are doing with regard to expensive. I think the actual cost runs around 63 roads and right now certainly South Indian Lake. cents per kilowatt hour. I know there are some sort of subsidy mechanisms involved so that As well, we dropped the $50 user fe e for people there pay less, but the service is also northern patient transportation, another positive sometimes less. Sometimes it is 60 amp or 15 thing that this Government did which really amp, and it would be wonderful if in the irritated northerners. As the Member for foreseeable future we could link those Dauphin-Roblin (Mr. Struthers) said, the people communities to the actual Hydro grid, perhaps in in the Opposition should be more sensitive to the conjunction with a further line to the Nunavut needs of rural people. They should certainly also region. That would be good for Manitoba; it be more sensitive to the needs of northerners and would be good for Manitoba Hydro; it would be Aboriginal people. If that is one big lesson the good for all of us. Opposition has to learn, it is that lesson, and it is not hard to see that they are not doing a good But, at the moment, it is more costly for job. Look at the voting patterns. You know, you those fo ur communities, and they are not can have a meeting of the Tory Party in northern included in this legislation unfortunately, but it Manitoba in any available phone booth, if we is something that we want to keep in the back of had them, because people do not support the our minds, that the concerns and the problems Tory Party because of their well-known, I would that those fo ur communities face, regarding what not say anti-Aboriginal stance but certainly cool, they pay for hydro, needs to be addressed in the lukewarm, never supportive. No money for a future. It is unfinished business and we need to road, no money for education, no money and so look at that in the future. We are not looking at it on and so on. That is why I am so happy that this at the moment because we need to ascertain the Government finally is doing something, fe deral commitment to support service to these including giving us equalized hydro rates. I think communities. Until we are sure what the fe ds are that members opposite, if they were wise, if they up to and how much they are willing to pay, we are really political in the smart sense, they would cannot really include them in this overall bill, get on board and support this bill, Mr. Deputy but I hope that happens in the not too distant Speaker. future. Thank you very much. The member from Dauphin-Roblin pointed out the myths that the members of the Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Opposition have been living by for many years. Training and Youth): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I One of those myths, I think, is also that northern rise in my place this afternoon to put a fe w Manitoba is not important to this economy, words on the record about this particular piece of because when they were in power they seemed legislation. One of my colleagues earlier referred to almost go out of their way to ignore or spurn to this discussion as the tale of two companies. I northern Manitoba. The argument always was, want to reflect upon that fo r a fe w moments for and I know it was in Highways and I was members of the House and the public broadly Highways critic at the time, we cannot put more because this indeed is a tale of two companies, than say 4 percent or 6 percent into highways up Manitoba Hydro on the one hand, Manitoba there because that is the percentage of Telephone System on the other hand. population. Well, since when in Canada do we look at Mr. Deputy Speaker, members opposite like only concentrated areas? Should we not be to talk about process, so we will talk briefly looking at the greatest areas of need, and about the process that led to the sell-off of the certainly northern Manitoba has some very, very Manitoba Telephone System in this province poor areas, some communities that need help. So under members opposite when they were in we need to support them and therefore we, as a government. government, have spent more money on roads in northern Manitoba to catch up on the years, over Mr. Sp eaker in the Chair 2902 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

One of my colleagues' states: What process? asset by members opposite, and then we will talk Indeed, that is a good question. There was no about the other company. process. In the sell-off of the Manitoba Telephone System, there was a hidden agenda * (16:20) by members opposite on the Manitoba Telephone System. That agenda enriched This is a tale of two companies. We will talk mightily some of the backroom players in the about Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Speaker. Those of Tory Party, some of the fr iends and relatives of us on this side of the House do not believe in members opposite, and picked the pockets of selling off an asset that keeps rates down, that every single Manitoban in every farm home, in provides equality of services and quality services every urban home, in every hamlet, village, town across the province of Manitoba. We do not and city in the province of Manitoba. Citizens believe in making backroom deals with cronies had their pockets picked by the members and hangers-on to liquidate a public asset to the opposite in the sell-off of the Manitoba detriment of every single taxpayer in the Telephone System. province of Manitoba, as was the case that took place with Manitoba Telephone System. Mr. Speaker, Manitobans in my part of the province, in western Manitoba, remember this We do believe, Mr. Speaker, very strongly and they remember it vividly. They remember in providing equality of service and quality of when Manitoba Telephone System was owned service to every Manitoban. This bill, which we by every single citizen in the province of are debating here today in the Legislature, is not Manitoba. They remember when telephone rates being done in the backrooms of the Tory Party; in the province of Manitoba were the lowest in it is being done on the floor of this Legislature. Canada. They remember when the Telephone We are very proud to have this debate and this System was something that all Manitobans were discussion on the floor of the Legislature about proud of in terms of delivering services to every the competing views of Crown assets in the home in the province of Manitoba at the province of Manitoba and competing views of cheapest rates in Canada. what it is to provide public service, because this Government, unlike members opposite, is Members opposite sold offthat asset, sold it providing relief for every farm, every hamlet, off, sold it off to the detriment of every every village, every town and every city in the Manitoban in the province of Manitoba. province of Manitoba, relief to ratepayers in Boissevain, Deloraine, Melita, Souris, Killarney, An Honourable Member: Buy it back. Ninette, Ninga, Virden, Birtle, Russell, Roblin, every community, every farmer, every Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, one of my farmhouse, every hamlet, every village, every colleagues across the Chamber hollers: Buy it town, Napinka, Pipestone, Reston-Pipestone, back. Buy it back. Reston, where my own family began our lives here in Manitoba over a hundred years ago. This Opposition, the governmentthat had no problem selling off a public asset that was a Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House benefit to every Manitoban, as I said, Mr. are providing relief to the citizens of Gilbert Speaker, to the backroom boys and fr iends and Plains and Grandview-to every rural hangers-on of the Tory Party, to the detriment of community-Winkler, Morden, Manitou, Lac du every single Manitoban, Manitobans have paid Bonnet, Baldur, Belmont, Gimli, Gretna, every through the nose for that decision. Every community in the province of Manitoba. Every Manitoban every month, with their telephone citizen of every rural community in the province bill, is reminded that members opposite are of Manitoba is benefiting and will benefit from responsible and will be held responsible for the this legislation. sell-off of Manitoba Telephone System and are held responsible every month for the increasing I, fr ankly, find it astonishing that members plunder and profit-taking of that private opposite, who proclaim to represent the best corporation now that it has been sold off as an interests of the citizens of Boissevain, of the June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2903

citizens of Deloraine, the citizens of Morden, the chosen it cis a prime topic. His first question of citizens of Warren, the citizens of rural the day was on this bill, and he has been quite communities in this province of Manitoba, are eloquent and vociferous in criticizing this bill. abrogating that responsibility to represent the One really has to wonder if he has a grasp on the best interests of their constituents in speaking feel in his caucus: Is the Conservative caucus against this legislation, speaking against opposed to this bill or not, or do they intend to opportunities for their constituents to save vote for it or not? This is a question that we money, to have rate equalization in the province really do not have any indication yet, since none of Manitoba for hydro rates. of them have really stood to speak on it. I challenge them, rural and urban members alike, So, Mr. Speaker, we will hold the members to get up and put on the record what they haveto opposite accountable for their abrogation of say about this bill. responsibility in representing their constituents because we on this side of the House, if they are There has been a lot of criticism that Hydro not going to do it, we believe in doing it. We should not do this, that Hydro does not have the will ensure that Manitobans will have equality of right to do this without taking it in front of the access and equality of rates, because members Public Utilities Board. Well, we have done better opposite cannot be trusted with decision making than that. We have brought this up in the as the tale of two companies amply Manitoba Legislature here. This is the ultimate demonstrates: Manitoba Telephone System, a decision-making body fo r the province, and we massive sell-off and rate explosions; Manitoba are the true representatives of the people of Hydro, using that Crown asset to develop and Manitoba. We have been duly elected by them, further economic development in the province of and if we choose to discuss an issue in this Manitoba for each and every citizen. Chamber, I think that takes precedence over any board or committee in this province, including Thank you, Mr. Speaker. the Public Utilities Board.

Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. So I do not have a problem with the Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure today to rise on Legislative Assembly dealing with this and behalf of rural Manitobans, in general, and on really do not understand what the argument is on behalf of my constituents in the rural the opposite side of the House here, that constituency of the Interlake to speak on Bill 27 somehow the Public Utilities Board is over and today, an amendment to The Hydro Act which above the elected government of this province. will, in my mind, redress a longstanding wrong Our minister has picked this up, and we have where people in rural Manitoba and the towns written it down in the Throne Speech. We have and people especially in the farm community made it quite public. It was an election issue. We have been essentially discriminated against in made a promise during the election campaign, that they were required to pay higher hydro rates and once again the New Democratic government than people in urban Manitoba were. is fo llowing through on another one of their election promises. So it is indeed a pleasure to finally see this come to fruition, and I applaud the Minister of You have to look at Manitoba Hydro and Hydro (Mr. Selinger) for taking this step. Some recognize it for what it is. It is a public utility. It might call it a small step but, indeed, a step in is owned by all the people of Manitoba, not just the right direction on behalf ofrural Manitobans. urban Manitobans. As such, all Manitobans I wait with bated breath for members of the should be entitled to the same treatment by this Conservative caucus, many of them who public utility. Why should urban Manitobans represent rural constituencies, to stand up and have some advantage over farmers in Manitoba put on the record their fe elings on this bill. when it comes to hydro rates? This is a very successful company; it is running a substantial I notice it has become an issue in Question profit of some $300 million to $400 million a Period over the last week or so. Indeed, the year. So why should not rural Manitobans-and Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) has maybe the member of Gimli will stand up and 2904 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 explain that to us if he takes the opportunity to If they had had the opportunity, if to the speak on this bill, why rural Manitobans should misfortune of the people of Manitoba they had not get the same treatment from a publicly been re-elected in 1999, I do not think we would owned company as do urban Manitobans.That is be debating a $10 a month rebate to rural the basic question here I think, is a question of Manitobans right now. We would probably be balance, is a question of equity, is a question of debating the sale of the utility itself, because­ fairness, pure and simple. [interjection] Well, you know, Manitoba Telephone System was a profitable company as I applaud the Minister of Finance (Mr. well. It was making money for this province, and Selinger) for introducing this bill, and I submit it was recently upgraded, as I recall. In fact, I cut that it is something that has been long overdue. some bush to run line through the Interlake on The Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), a the upgrade of the Manitoba Telephone System. northern community, a northern constituency I believe we upgraded it to the tune of roughly which is also going to benefit fr om this, made $600 million-did we not?-and then, a fe w short the point that it is going to be maybe $10 a years later, sold it fo r a paltry, what, $700 month, $15 a month more in the pockets of million, a company that miraculously appreci­ Manitobans. In the eyes of some of the MLAs ated probably two- or three-fold in a fe w short across the floor here, that may not seem like a years. So their agenda, when it comes to Crown vast amount of money, but in some of the rural corporations, became painfully clear to the communities that I represent, take Poplarfield for people of Manitoba and contributed in large part example, which was not mentioned to date yet. to their downfall, in fact that they now sit on the The people of Poplarfield are not wealthy. They opposition bench. are living in an area of this province that has . more marginal land than prime agricultural land, I think the people of Manitoba realized that and they have to make do with that. So that sum they were quite keen, slavering at the mouth, I of $10 or $15 a month multiplied by 12, adding would think, looking at Manitoba Hydro, how up to $150, $200 a year, is a substantial amount quickly they could privatize this corporation and of money to those people. I am sure that they start putting the money into their back pockets as will appreciate that we have taken this brave opposed to giving Manitobans a fair shake, step. which is what we are intent on doing.

* (16:30) If we have to be socialistic about it and hold on to Crown corporations and pass laws to There was a member on the opposite side ensure that they will not be privatized, then we who spoke earlier on another bill in reference to will continue to do so. Their attitude goes across Crown lands and was criticizing us because we the board when it comes to utilities like were not selling Crown land off quick enough, Manitoba Hydro. They have looked at all of that we were just a bunch of socialists trying to these social services, these Crown corporations, hoard the land and not allow free enterprise to as money-generating engines. Good capitalists have its will with the assets of the province here. resent the fact that so-called socialist governments will sit in place and maintain these That sort of twigged something in my mind, systems fo r the benefit of the people. That really and the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) sticks in their craw, I think. just spoke about it briefly here, about how other Crown assets have been dealt with by members Even when it comes to a $10 rebate per of the now-Opposition, the sale of the Manitoba month for a fe w farmers, that is still too much Telephone System, for example, a prime fo r them. They cannot stand up in this House example, done completely behind closed doors, and support something like that. They can snipe no mention of it whatsoever during their election at it. They are silent on the benches. The leader campaign prior to that, unlike our promise that will get up occasionally and take a shot at the we would be fair with the people of Manitoba in farmers in Manitoba, but it is going to be curious terms of rates. I think they are showing their to see if they are going to support this bill when cards a little bit here. it finally does come to a vote at third reading. June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2905

I would strongly encourage them to do so over a decade ago I think our capital budget for given the number of rural members that they provincial drains was in excess of $10 million. have in their caucus. Surely a majority of their When we came back into office some 11 years MLAs represent rural Manitobans. I cannot, for later that was down to $3 million. That is the life of me, imagine them voting against this progress for you, right, going backwards instead bill, but to date we have not heard anything in of forwards. Yet they stand here day after day support of it. That is for sure. Lots of snide purporting to be in support of the agricultural remarks from the peanut gallery and the back community. Sometimes it boggles the mind. bench there but nothing of substance put on the record that the people of Manitoba can refer to in Other issues, for example, in their zeal to cut Hansard. expenditures and accordingly give tax breaks to their rich fr iends, they have been downloading If members have something to say, then I their financial responsibilities onto the munici­ challenge them to stand up in the House here and palities and the school boards in this province. put it on the record. When they did away with the educational support levy, the provincial support levy on farm There is always a call for consultation. land, for example, that was portrayed as a good There is always a call for comparisons to other thing fo r farmers. It would have been if they had jurisdictions across the country. We like to see done the right thing andincreased the amount of how the government in Saskatchewan, fo r money that was spent on the education system in example, is doing things or Alberta or Ontario or the process. Then it would have been fair, right? whatever. Let us just put it on record now what a But what did they do? They cut that tax, cuMheir few of the other jurisdictions are doing here. expenditures and said here it is to the B.C. Hydro has uniform rates for all British municipalities and the school boards to make up Columbians. Hydro Quebec has the same the difference. program, as does Nova Scotia Three other provinces in this country have similar * (16:40) legislation. I know in the R.M. of Fisher, which is my The biggest city in the country, the city of home municipality, the special levy that has to Toronto, has similar type rates, so I think that the make up the difference was increasing .1 5 precedent has been set here, that other percent to 20 percent a year to fo llow up on that jurisdictions are content with being fair with irresponsible approach and that downloading on their hydro rates, and Manitoba is wisely the municipalities. So I think the record is quite fo llowing suit on this. Getting back to the rural clear that the Conservative caucus really does record, fo r instance, the Conservative caucus has not care all that much about rural Manitoba. shown their hand on numerous other issues as They are more interested in catering to the well. I do not mean to digress from Hydro, but I business community, cutting taxes, basically think that some of these things should be put on fe athering their own nests. I think the people of the record again and again and again, because Manitoba had enough of it, recognized them for the people of Manitoba have to be reminded. what they were in 1999 and did the right thing and put them back on the opposition benches, I know from personal experience the roads where they most certainly belong. in my constituency have been crumbling for over a decade, and the people of the Interlake are very The Member fo r Minnedosa (Mr. grateful that finally their needs are being Gilleshammer) just a brief time ago was addressed by the Minister of Transportation (Mr. criticizing the fact that Manitoba Hydro was Ashton). Manitobans in general, farmers in converting the plants in Brandon and in Selkirk particular, who are totally reliant on proper over to natural gas, like that is supposedly infrastructure, have been left out in the cold by something evil, that the Government should this Government in terms of one of the never have done that, that they should have gone fundamental systems that is required, which is through a huge consultation process and so on the drainage system. When the NDP left office and so forth, very similar thinking to George 2906 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

Bush in the United States, who just recently put scenario, but today they are certainly in dire the kibosh to the Kyoto agreement on straits. What action did the Conservative greenhouse gases. It is better to bum coal and government take? They canned something like pollute the atmosphere when a government takes the rural stress line, something simple but a positive step and does something like something fundamental, something needed by converting over to a cleaner fuel. They stand up people in dire straits. They put the kibosh to that. in indignation and go on at length and criticize something like that. It is not easy to swallow, I Something like testing water, something am sure. simple like that did not cost the province millions and millions of dollars, did it? Maybe a Another good example of criticism of our couple of hundred thousand dollars a year to policies toward Hydro was the fact that the ensure that people in rural Manitoba, farmers Manitoba government of today is looking at again, could at least have the security that they including the Aboriginal people in future hydro knew that they had safe water, they had to cancel developments. Again and again you can see that a program like that. That is the absolute lowest just sticks in their craw. That is something that is that a government could sink to, in my mind, and most offensive to them and yet it is the once again the people of Manitoba got tired of Aboriginal people in this province who have treatment like that, shoddy treatment like that, borne the brunt of hydro development over the focus on business and cut taxes fo r the rich. That years. It is all up in the North. It is their trap is their agenda. The rest of us can take a hike, lines. It is their communities that have been basically was their attitude. I think they ran out disrupted. It is high time that the Government of of steam finally and have been put in their Manitoba recognized this inequity and took proper place, which is on the opposition bench. actions to rectify this problem, something that would never have been considered, I think, by I do not mean to go on at length here. I have members on the opposition bench now. The spoken fo r some 20 minutes already. Possibly Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) one of them is actually going to stand up and put made reference to Inco that, you know, if we are on the record what their government has to say going to make cuts that maybe we should give it about this bill. This is not Question Period now. to another large corporation. Let us face it. They I challenge any member of the Opposition and would prefer to give it to these large all the rural members in particular to stand up corporations. Aboriginal people are low down on right now and put their thoughts on the record. the totem pole, if I may use that type of language, but Inco, right on top, eh? The Thank you, Mr. Speaker. taxpayers, the workers in these communities continue to pay the higher rate, but let us give it Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and to the large corporation instead. So really, the Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, it is a northern people in general, the farmers across pleasure indeed to stand and put a few words on this land have finally seen something, are the record regarding Bill 27, The Manitoba starting to see a little bit of light at the end of the Hydro Amendment Act. tunnel here with this Government. We are taking would just like to start off by action to address their needs in a time of crisis. congratulating the minister for putting this bill The Tories have made many, many promises forward. This bill has been a long time coming. over the years. They are long on promises, but The Crown corporation Manitoba Hydro they are short on delivery, in particular when it certainly, as we all realize maybe more on this comes to rural Manitoba, very short on delivery, side than the Opposition, is a jewel. Manitoba simple little things like the Member for Hydro certainly is a Manitoba advantage. It the Dauphin-Roblin (Mr. Struthers) referred to, vision for our future. We saw that with the simple little things that did not cost very much, a development throughout mandates of NDP rural stress line when farmers are in crisis in this governments throughout this province, with the province like they have never been before, I do Limestone developments and many of the others not think. Maybe back in the Dirty Thirties that have given Manitoba the Manitoba during the Depression might have been a similar advantage that we are seeing now. June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2907

The minister, in putting this bill forward, is our rural communities and the diversification keeping with the process, open and transparent and the opportunities that I believe are out there process, that started during the election for rural Manitoba. This certainly identifies our campaign that was heavily brought to the people Government's commitment to the rural of Manitoba. It was identified in the Speech community, to the people in Russell, to establish from the Throne in December. It was put into a a business and set up here in the province of bill here, Bill 27, by the minister for people to Manitoba with our Manitoba advantage, with a see quite transparently. The transparent process Crown corporation that is going to see nothing from this side of the House is not in question but growth for the next few decades. with Manitobans. Certainly this particular bill, Manitobans are very excited to see it brought Mr. Speaker, the member's philosophy, fo rward. have noticed here from the Opposition. You know, when you take the MTS affair, basically The members opposite, Mr. Speaker, quite they had the idea that they were managers of honestly astound me with some of their businesses. They were managers of people's opposition to this bill. We have heard it dollars here in Manitoba. When I saw them sell constantly from the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. shares in the MTS, sell low and then buy high Gilleshammer), fr om the Member for Turtle with Centra Gas, it really makes me wonder Mountain (Mr. Tweed), that seemed very whether they understand the philosophy of the opposed to equalization of hydro-electric rates economics and the principles of it. throughout the province of Manitoba. I have heard over and over again fr om those members I guess I could put it best in the way that I about the diversification that we should see would identify it. When we heard today some of throughout Manitoba and throughout this ridicule that went on with the minister here, province with everybody having the Manitoba when we heard the Tories opposite here speak advantage. about the gambling casinos here in the province of Manitoba, they seemed to have this Mr. Speaker, with the rural communities, philosophy. I think we have probably all seen the certainly the Member for Turtle Mountain and movie, Field ofDre ams. It seems that the the Member for Minnedosa should know the members opposite here had this field of dreams hardships that farmers and people in rural areas where instead of building it and they will come, are dealing with right now. They constantly use they seemed to have the idea of build it and the terminology of diversification, but when it overspend and they will not come. That does not comes along to a bill like this, quite frankly they strike me as basic business principles that the riddle it with inaccuracies in some of the people of Manitoba want to see here with their statements they make here in the House and then finances. Certainly it is not something that they have the audacity to not want to have this members on this side would agree with. into the communities that they represent. It is absolutely astounding that these members * (16:50) basically do not support a bill that would certainly target rural and northern Manitoba to Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba advantage is equalize the rates here in our province, to being created by Hydro and the growth and the develop diversification, a real diversification expansion in hydro that we see over the next here in the province that is basically going to decade, the potential fo r hydro-electric power give the Manitoba advantage to individual and hydrogen power certainly as a clean, communities. environmentally fr iendly power source that we are seeing ingress here into the province of The Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach), I Manitoba greatly, not only in the amount of jobs see over here, I believe will probably support that are being created here in the province by this bill. I cannot see him not supporting this bill businesses moving in here from Alberta. when it comes time for the vote, Mr. Speaker. We will watch very closely fo r that. The member opposite I have heard speak many, many times We saw Albchem, Mr. Speaker. See the about the advantages that we should provide for Manitoba advantage, hundreds of millions of 2908 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 dollars invested, certainly, in the area that I in Manitoba. This is another way. I have to represent up in the Brandon area. The expansion mention again the vision that this minister has in is to be one of the largest markets for their putting this on the table for Manitobans and for product in all of North America, seeing and all communities in Manitoba, not for a select fe w identifying the province of Manitoba for being a that the members opposite would like to have place to set up shop, set up business and a good maintained and identified. place to do business. We have seen a number of other opportunities with potential coming into So I would challenge, when it comes time, Manitoba with the hydro-electric advantage that fo r the Member fo r Russell (Mr. Derkach) and we have here in the province. the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) and the Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we should not Tweed) to stand up and be accounted fo r, and limit that advantage to the Capital Region, as stand up on their fe et and vote in favour of this some of the members would like, to keep it in bill. We will watch this very closely. I know the Winnipeg and in Brandon, but to spread it members in their community will watch this throughout the entire province of Manitoba, very closely to see if they represent all of giving people in rural municipalities such as Manitoba or just a select fe w. Russell and Turtle Mountain and Minnedosa that same advantage for those businesses to come in With those comments, Mr. Speaker, I thank and set up in our province, in fact maybe even you very much. having a slight business advantage in some of the opportunities that they have in some of the Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Culture, rural communities. Heritage and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I just want to put a couple of comments on the record We have got a fantastic opportunity here just with regard to equalization of payments or with the educational initiatives that we have with equalization of rates for rural Manitoba and the young fo lks here in Manitoba and returning northern Manitobans. to their own communities, no matter how small that community might be here in the province of Members opposite make comments about Manitoba. Another step fo rward will be part of a my athletic ability with regard to skating on development of a potential business plan for issues, and stick handling. This, I will tell them these communities to take the advantage of the absolutely clear, I am not stick handling on or hydro-electric power, not only in the agricultural fading away fr om. I want them to stand up in sector and in farming, but certainly in some of this Legislature and be counted. Ste. Rose, the larger corporations that have identified Pembina, Lakeside, Portage Ia Prairie, Manitoba as being one of the best places in Minnedosa, Gimli, Arthur-Virden, Emerson, North America to do business. Steinbach, Morris, Lac du Bonnet, Carman, Springfield, Turtle Mountain, every one of those Mr. Speaker, I have to agree with that. The are rural constituencies held by members of the environment here in Manitoba with the business Opposition. I want them to go and face the community, with labour and with government public and answer to them why are they not has never been so good. It is at an all-time high equal citizens to the people of Winnipeg and the in here. We are seeing the advantages of that in citizens of Winnipeg? I saved Russell fo r last. the reduction of the people that are unemployed here in the province of Manitoba. We are seeing Mr. Speaker, we have MLAs on the an ingression of people here in the province of Government side of the House that are from Manitoba for the firsttime in a number of years, Winnipeg that support this initiative, support in fact in over 11 years. rural Manitobans and members or certainly citizens of Manitoba that are from northern Mr. Speaker, the identifiers are out there for Manitoba. I do not understand why members growth in our province. We certainly want to opposite are being hesitant to support this. This sustain that and improve that and expand that is something that deals with basic fairness. At here in Manitoba for the advantage of the people one time in Manitoba it was sewer and water; at June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2909 one time it was electrification; at one time it was I know the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. telephone system. Well, we will not go there. Murray) has a lot of difficulty with this issue, We will not talk about telephones, but this and a lot of members are from rural Manitoba. It comes down to basic rights of individual citizens is very difficult to stand up and support in Manitoba having an equal share, equal something that the Government is doing. I am opportunity to what the other members of beginning to learn, Mr. Speaker, yes, I am new society and citizens of Manitoba have. to politics, but when things come down to issues like this of fairness,there does not have to be the A lot of great comments were made, and I clear political divisiveness that there is on many certainly do not want to reiterate or go through different issues. those comments that were stated by the Member fo r Brandon West (Mr. Smith) or other members This is dealing with fairness, and this is on this side of the House. I just wanted to stand dealing with economic fairness for all up as a rural MLA and to say that the people that Manitobans. That is all that this Government is I have spoken to and the individuals that I have trying to do. That is all the Minister responsible had opportunity to speak to around the province for Hydro (Mr. Selinger) is trying to do. That is are really questioning members opposite. Not all the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) is very often will members opposite find me to be trying to do with many initiatives he is bringing so partisan, but on this particular issue, I would fo rward in health care. We are just saying join us plead with them to support us on this because on a lot of these, because Manitobans are members- looking at the Opposition and they are saying, you know, you just cannot oppose everything Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. bolus-bolus just because the Government brings it in. There is a lot of excellent legislation we are Mr. Lemieux: Well, Mr. Speaker, this is bringing forward that they should be supporting, something fundamental, and I know that and Manitobans would respect that. members opposite privately make comment So, Mr. Speaker, having said that I know about. They know how hard hit farmers have there are other members on this side of the been in this province and how hard hit House who want to put their comments on the northerners have been, and they say that this is record in supporting this initiative. I know that something that farmers need a break, rural there are a number of mer:1bers of the Manitobans need a break, small businesses in Opposition- rural Manitoba and the North need a break. This is some way that we can concretely deliver An Honourable Member: Why will you not let something to Manitobans. All we are asking on it go to the PUB then? this side of the House is that members opposite support this and not be divisive and not use as wedge politics. Join us. This is something that Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, comments have all Manitobans will celebrate, and we will give been made with regard to the PUB. The duty of you credit. We will give you credit where credit the PUB is to regulate, not to regulate is due. government. We are duly elected to bring in laws and legislation that is good for the public of I will go around with the member from Manitoba, which we will. The PUB is not Steinbach, from community to community with answerable to the public of Manitoba through an him, if he will stand up and support this bill and election. In four years we will stand up and be this initiative. I will give him fair credit where counted, and the report card will show that we credit is due if he will support this. It is great for have done a better job in fo ur years than you did rural Manitobans, and I know that the member in twelve. from Steinbach and other rural members­ [interjection} All I am asking is that members opposite stand up and speak on this issue, and let Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It was a us know why. Manitobans would like to know pleasure to put my comments on record, and I why they do not want to support it. Where do want to see where the members opposite fr om they stand on this? rural Manitoba stand on this issue. Thank you. 2910 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

* (17:00) Telephone System. He remembers that. I am not taking him out of context. Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I was awaiting your acknowledgment, but I see If they honestly believed that that my light is on. Well, "hypocrisy" is a word that privatization of MTS was a bad deal, why are we have to use with caution in this Chamber, they not doing it? Furthermore, you do not have and so I will use it with caution in this Chamber. to buy it back. You can expropriate it. The I am drawn to speak to the bill primarily because minister of highways needs a particular piece of of the comments made by the Minister of road, a bit of land to build highways and if the Education (Mr. Caldwell) a short while ago. I landowner is not willing to part with that land he listened to a number of the speeches that were expropriates the land. If they honestly believe, being made. He told the tale of two companies, other than making cheap politics of it, then they and I want to carry on in that vein a little bit with would do something. Other Labour governments respect to Bill 27 that is before us. in Britain, other New Democratic governments in this country have done just that. Just picking up on the last issue of the former speaker, the Minister of Culture, Heritage I am not supposed to divulge information and Tourism (Mr. Lemieux) with respect to the you acquire around the Cabinet table, but my PUB. One of the important things that we use former boss is not here. Mr. Filmon is not here, the Public Utilities Board for is, in fact, to so I am going to break that rule, because I have establish fa irness in the rates. I just want to ask, to tell you that when it became publicly known we use the PUB, for instance, for Manitoba that the Manitoba government was going to Autopac, automobile insurance corporation, to privatize Manitoba Telephone System, he got a establish their rates, to justify why, for instance, call fr om whom? Another former premier, motorcyclists pay more and keep on paying Premier Roy Romanow of Saskatchewan. He more and are being faced with a 15% raise right wanted to get on board. He said let us privatize now while other users, like myself and most of them together. Yes, that was true, that is true. us in this Chamber, rates are in fact stabilized That is true, Mr. Speaker, because Saskatchewan and are going down. Why is that, Mr. Speaker? Tel is going to have to go the same route ofMTS It is because when that agency, staffe d as they or be lefthopelessly in the backwater of modem are with the resources that they have, examine communications on this continent. the costs of the corporation doing a particular line of business says that is a fair rate to impose That was the whole issue. Today the on a particular user of that public service. Do I services that could be supplied and in fact were hear anybody, least of all the Minister justified by a monopoly have become so diverse responsible for Autopac, least of all the Minister that 75 percent, 80 percent of the services, of Transportation, taking argument with that role telecommunications services that are now of the Public Utilities Board? Not at all. provided, are provided by a number of users. Do you really want to go head to head with Sprint, So, Mr. Speaker, let us try to keep with Cantel, with all the rest, with Rogers? That reasonably straight, fo rthright information when is the issue, and if honourable members want to we put it on the record. The Minister of at least be in this Chamber, even if they want to Education spoke a great deal, enthusiastically, play their game of politics outside of this about the tale of the two companies, and, of Chamber, but in this Chamber they know that to course, they like to make constant references to be the truth. the sale and the privatization of the Manitoba Telephone System by the previous government. I Mr. Speaker, in terms of a little bit of can recall, again, he was then I believe the history, it was a Conservative government that Opposition House Leader, the Member for created the Manitoba Telephone System back in Thompson (Mr. Ashton), the minister of 1932, 1934-between '32 and '34, a Conservative highways and transportation, who pledged to government- [interjection]-well, maybe 1908, I Manitobans that if given a chance they would believe. What was happening to that new reverse that decision and buy back the utility, the technology at the tum of the century, it was June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2911 again understandably only made available to the they are Government. If they fe el as strongly as larger centres. It was just too costly to try to some of them pretend they feel about the status provide the service across the length and breadth of the telecommunications services in the of a province like Manitoba in those years. And, province of Manitoba, they have all the power so, it was a Conservative government who saw and the money. They can borrow. We advise the need, who recognized that this is an them against it. We think it is fo olish. We think important service, important to the future it is nonsense, but if they fe el strongly about it, if economic well-being of this province. They did the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) fe els not have ideological blinkers on. They formed a strongly about it, then Jet him convince his public company called the Manitoba Telephone Cabinet colleagues to reverse that decision. Mr. System and it served well. It served the people Speaker, you and I know they will not do that. of Manitoba well up until the mid-'60s and the early '70s when there was a virtual revolution in *(17:10) telecommunications in the province. I credit the current Premier (Mr. Doer) with We were being told by the major a modicum of common sense, and he is simply commercial users like the people just next door not going to even entertain the idea. He would at Great-West Life that if we did not change, be laughed out of the province by everybody that they would transfer all their commercial traffic has any reasonable understanding within the south to Minneapolis and do their business business community if that were even put on the across the world and avoid using MTS entirely table. fo r their commercial business. So, Mr. Speaker, let us not have them, The point that I am trying to make, Mr. particularly in contrast with the bill that we have Speaker, the issue was could a Crown before us, Bill 27, try to tell us the stories, the corporation face up to the demands, the rapidly legends of the Tale ofTwo Cities, the tale of two changing demands of telecommunications as we companies, as the Minister of Education did. moved into the 21st century? The right conclusion was made that the system had to be I am going to suggest to you that placed into the more flexible, private mode of personally will have no difficulty in supporting operation where it could make alliances, as they this bill. But I want to tell you something, why have done, with other major players in the field, the call for a Public Utilities Board perusal of the which the very act as a public corporation proposal is so important. What the Public prohibited them fr om doing. Utilities Board does, it determines the degree of cross-subsidization that takes place from time to So, Mr. Speaker, I make absolutely no time, as it does with respect to automobile apology, no apology at all for the action taken by insurance, as it does with respect to other items the previous administration with MTS. It has and services that we acquire, particularly from enabled this relatively small, local telecom­ public bodies. munications company to grow with the times, to grow with a partner, to grow with the new I want to acknowledge, Mr. Speaker, that it technology. The rate increases that we are seeing costs Manitoba Hydro considerably more money are largely based on the additional services that to provide hydro for my farm than it does for my we are getting fr om the company. colleague in the city of Winnipeg or any of my urban colleagues. We understand that, but we But the point that I want to make, I am just should at least be fair and open and transparent not going to accept members opposite whenever about it. This talk about fairness and equitable-! they fe el they have the need to try to play their mean, why should I be put in that favourite little game of politics in that respect. I simply position? challenge them: then do something about it. They often like to tell us that you cannot have it Mr. Speaker, I will be supporting this bill. both ways. Of course, it is a little easier in The people who should perhaps question the bill opposition to have it both ways sometimes, but are the urban members because they are going to 2912 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 carry a greater percentage of the freight, and reasonable for my Leader, for spokespersons of they already do. this party to ask for that same exercise to be undertaken with respect to this pretty significant When the last Liberal premier in this intervention, if you like, in Hydro matters. province, Mr. D. L. Campbell, provided what I still consider to be one of the truly mega­ Mr. Speaker, I do not take exception to the undertakings of economic development in this argument that a government or this Chamber can province and brought in, in relatively short intervene in the Crown corporations. They are, years, 1948 to '51, rural electrification, it was a after all, creatures that we make. From time to massive undertaking, one that is hard really to time, we will amend their mandates, we will imagine unless you travel the countless miles change their method of doing business, and we throughout rural Manitoba and just see the will direct them from time to time as to how they endless lines of transmission lines and service should conduct business and provide services to lines to the individual farms, communities and the citizens of Manitoba. That is fair game. I hamlets throughout Manitoba. It was a massive take no great exception to that, but to ignore, economic program. It was a massive social slough off the call that we are putting forward on program, but it was made possible. this side of the House that a reasonable scrutiny by the Public Utilities Board of the proposal is Quite frankly, it was made possible by the responsible to both the utility and to the users, people ofthe city of Winnipeg to cross-subsidize quite fr ankly, you know I think all citizens and help pay for it. That is why I have got power should know. They should know what it costs on my farm, and that is why I am paying a Manitoba Hydro to deliver X number of modest increase more for the actual power than kilowatts of power into a city home as compared for the city user, because it costs Manitoba to X number of kilowatts of power into a country Hydro considerably more money to provide me home or into a northern home or into an isolated with the same amount of power than it does for home. If we want to equalize them, that is the the densely located city. responsibility of this Government, and they will carry the responsibility of the Government. I do That is not the issue here. This Government not challenge that, but we ought to know how made an election promise. I happen to believe the numbers crunch out. that parties making election promises should take them very seriously and attempt, all other You know, Mr. Speaker, I can recall at the things withstanding, to carry them out. As they introduction of Autopac, for instance, there was remind us, they have given every indication that among other things a great move of levelling this was their intention. It was contained in their out, everybody should pay equal insurance Throne Speech, and as a legislator, I do not premiums. In fact that was one of the fe atures criticize. I do not have any difficulty with this that sold Autopac initially when introduced by bill being presented before us. the Schreyer government in 1970. Howard Pawley wasthe minister responsible at that time. You have not heard, they have not heard Partly that was because under the private what our positions and our thoughts are with insurance system individuals with bad records, respect to this bill. What we have been asking individuals that kept smashing up cars found for and what I am asking for today is the their premiums nsmg. Young people, examination by the Public Utilities Board so that regrettably, who by class could be shown to be we know. That may not change it. They can less responsible drivers than middle-aged carry on their commitment, their promise to persons, their premiums were automatically 25 level the rates in northern Manitoba, rural or 30 percent higher than other people's. Manitoba and with the city of Winnipeg, but just Autopac was going to level that all out. We were as we insist that Manitoba public automobile going to have egalitarian kind of rates apply to insurance, in a very public transparent way, automobile insurance. justifies their various classes of automobile insurance and the premiums charged for it, I Well, Mr. Speaker, it did not take. It took think it is being entirely responsible and only a year or two or three years, in fact, the June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2913 changes were well in progress in year 5, year 6 other users of gasoline. We could make precisely of Autopac under an NDP government when it the same argument with hydro. We could say was recognized that motorcycles-and I have that the Minister of Agriculture, if she is being nothing against motorcycles, I think they are a stymied, if she is being blocked by her great recreational vehicle. They can be a insensitive colleagues from providing some dangerous vehicle, but the simple fact of the substantive relief for farm families in agriculture matter is that they are more vulnerable when right now, try another tack. personal injuries are involved. They are more vulnerable to theft. They are more vulnerable to It would appear to me that the current damage. So why should the rest of the motoring Minister responsible for Hydro (Mr. Selinger) is public who never purchase a motorcycle be maybe an easier touch. He is prepared to give paying, cross-subsidizing that particular class of me a little break in my hydro rates. Well, why do vehicle? It was fo und, we have now instituted, you not go whole hog and tell him to at least have had for many years, if my driving record is give us a moratorium, three years no hydro rates bad, if I have been involved in a number of for farmers in Manitoba? That would be kind of accidents, I pay more than my neighbour who a nice little pickup and a demonstration. has a spotless record. [i nterjection] Hey, Madam Minister, you are government. I am just making sensible * (17:20) suggestions to the Government, who is making great speeches in this Chamber about how we You do not apologize for it. You are running are going to equalize on the basis of fairness and Autopac right now. It is a matter, it is also a equity hydro rates in the province. Mr. Speaker, question, of fairness and equity. If I am going to I am not making those particular arguments. I operate my motor vehicle in a reckless fashion, am just suggesting these are arguments that you if I roll two or three every other year, if I drive could certainly expect from the farm community impaired, then I should not expect my fe llow and from a member who represents a farm citizens to be cross-subsidizing my insurance community. costs. That mechanical fe ature is built into it by the regulators and by other Crown corporations The point that I am trying to make, Mr. that provide a public service. All I am Speaker, the call when we do these things and suggesting, all you have heard from this side, when we tinker with the way Crow.n Mr. Speaker, all you have heard from my leader corporations set their rates and earn their is that we know the level of cross-subsidization income, that at least, particularly if we have a that will be required to bring this about. tradition and we have in place the agency, the Public Utilities Board, long-standing, does its I can make you enthusiastic arguments about job, to do precisely the kinds of things that I am why, particularly now, I could make you talking about, to examine how Hydro comes to arguments right now that we have a continuing the rates that they have to charge and why there farm crisis. I think the farm contribution to our should be a difference, or should there not be a general well-being is so important, the farm difference. contribution to the fact that we have a national cheap fo od policy in this country and have had I know, having had some information with fo r all these years. Well, one way of maintaining respect to Manitoba Hydro and having had the that is, is it fair? Should farmers pay anything privilege of shortly being a director of Manitoba for hydro? Why not drop rates to food Hydro, that large industrial users who use producers? Or why not say that on food significant blocks of hydro get a better rate than production, we are going to take off any costs I do. We justify that as being part of our that we can to enable the fam ily farm to survive economic development policy. This rate and to help maintain affordable fo od in this equalization that you are talking about it is going country. We do a bit of that with respect to the to cost somebody some money. It is going to levies that we impose on gasoline, on cost Hydro some money. Is that going to put transportation. We do not pay the same amount pressure on Manitoba Hydro at some future of provincial taxes on farm fu el as we do on point to come forward, maybe make the case in 2914 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 front of the Public Utilities Board and say, look, way that they will tell you very clearly-and I we can no longer afford to give loco the special heard just the other day driving in from the farm deal they have on hydro or Hudson Bay Mining a spokesperson fo r the Autopac corporation & Smelting or any other large industrial users, explaining once again to an agitated motorcyclist because this Government, this Legislature, has why his rates were going up 15 percent when, forced us to equalize the rates, and that is costing generally speaking, automobile rates are either us X number of millions of dollars. To recover stable or the increases are very modest. In fact, those dollars and stay solvent, we now have to in many instances-and I am pleased to see that­ take back, claw back some of those discounted they have, in fact, dropped somewhat because of rates that we give large employee-creating the experience rating of that particular class of businesses. vehicle, and so forth.

What does that do to the economic well­ I am not suggesting that makes that cyclist being of this province when all of a sudden we happier, but I know that I am listening to the can no longer boast, as we do, and use as a lure program, other people listening, Citizens to attract new industries, new businesses, new listening to that program know and have a job creation opportunities to this province, reasonable understanding of how Autopac because we are proud of the fact that we have establishes its rates. It is not just that we take the among North America's lowest power rates, management of Autopac's word for it, although I energy rates, you know, on the continent? These have no reason and certainly do not suggest that are the very issues that a Public Utilities Board we should not take their word fo r it. They refer would look at. those rates to an independent agency. We call it the Public Utilities Board here in Manitoba. It is The Public Utilities Board cannot and will a board that has considerable access to resources not, they are not empowered to make this in terms of research, in terms of power, in terms Government change their mind on anything. of calling witnesses, in terms of opening up This Government has, as they have stated, and books of companies and looking at and they have made very clear in a very public way examining the data on which companies base that it is their intention to travel down this road. their financial information. That is what should God bless them. Nobody is going to take real take place in the circumstances with respect to umbrage about the legality of doing it. They Bill 27. have the legislative responsibility. They are the Government. They are elected by the people. I have a hunch, Mr. Speaker, just a They can do that. But it is my job, as an suggestion. One of the reasons why they do not opposition member, simply to point out as we want to do that, why this Government does not move in this direction what are some of the want that- possible implications. That is all I am trying to do. * (17:30) I would like to know what the member from An Honourable Member: Why is it, Harry? Wellington, how much more, what is he going to pay. We heard from several speakers, the member from the Interlake, that I am going to Mr. Enos: Because what I have alluded to in save $120, maybe $150 on my farm. I want to this place. At the end of the day, it is going to know how much the member from Wellington is cost the urban user, and they do not particularly going to pay so I save my $150. Forty dollars? want that pointed out to the urban user by Fifty dollars? I do not know. Maybe nothing. anybody, least of all a public utilities board. But somewhere along the line somebody has to They would sooner Jet everybody have that nice pay. I mean, if Hydro is going to get less fe eling: oh, are we not great? We are equalizing revenue from the northern users, they are going rates. Everybody is going to feel good about to get less revenue from the rural users. that. Somewhere it levels out. That is the kind of action, that is the kind of scrutiny, that the Public That is great. But if you really examine why Utilities Board undertakes, much in the same this digging-in-of-the-heels, why the refusal to June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2915 let the Public Utilities Board take a look at this the woods, it has never come back to this proposal, what I am suggesting to you is that the Legislature, has never come back to the people Public Utilities Board would say-maybe not at of Manitoba, to pay fo r those kinds of this particular moment but they would point out­ indulgences. that it costs X number of dollars more to service a rural user. It costs X number of dollars more to I can remember one speech, Mr. service a northern user, and if you are going to Speaker-this is actually my favourite. I forget. I insist that we are going to pass legislation as we misplaced it. are to equalize them, then at the end of the day it is going to cost the high-density user, the city, An Honourable Member: The airline? more. Mr. Enos: The airline. I mean this Government This Government does not want an believed that they were going to take on Boeing independent agency to put that on the public and United and British Airways, and we were record. That is shameful, quite frankly. This going to get into the pasty aircraft business in Government that prides itself on transparency, Gimli. Where is my friend fr om Gimli, on openness. They talk about backroom deals Manitoba? We put $52 million into trying to and stuff like that. If you really examine the build a passenger aircraft. The amazing thing degree and the level of cross-subsidization, it is, was among the first expenditures-and I only no doubt, the highest in the North. It has to be found that out as Government Services Minister simply because of the cost of providing the after eight years of the defeat, and looking in the service. It is lesser in rural Manitoba. But, Mr. bowels of the department building, I found out. Speaker, we will take it. I will take it, but it is What did I find, Mr. Speaker? I found-pardon not the appropriate way of doing business. me, the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger); in those days we called them If this Government in the long run wants to stewardesses, flight-line attendants we called establish some credibility with respect to its them; I think that would be correct-they had handling of public matters and public affairs, uniforms for the stewardesses, for the supposed particularly in respect to Crown corporations, Manitoba airline company. I even fo und a box, then they ought to be among the firstto want an 5000 matches Skyline? No- outside scrutiny of this corporation on this matter. The New Democrats have such a history An Honourable Member: WesternAir, I think. it boggles the imagination with respect to how they mucked around with Crown corporations. Mr. Enos: Western Air or something like that. For years, we took great pride in building buses Saunders. Saunders Aircraft. A box of matches that cost us $184,000 to build and then selling fo r advertising, you know, to hand out to the them in Boston fo r $95,000, and Chicago. I sat passengers as they lined up to fly around the in this Chamber, and we picked up a $19 million world. annual deficit fo r the bus company, for Flyer. Well, Mr. Speaker, $52 million later, seven This group of people that are now in and three-quarter planes produced, I think. I do government, they fo r years ran a pulp and paper not know where they are left. There may be one company in The Pas, and that company ran up in a museum somewhere, but it just reminds you, deficits of 18, 30. The highest deficit that I can this is the kind of tinkling, this is the kind of recall that we passed was a $34-million one-year social engineering, this is the kind of economic deficit. Mind you, their appointed chairman was development that the New Democrats are living in Montreal and flew in weekly to capable of and have done. You notice that there manage this company. We paid for his golf club is no retaliation. I am not telling stuff. I will privileges in Montreal, and we wonder why a admit there are occasions when I maybe company with that kind of hands-on embellish the truth somewhat. You know, I was management-a Crown corporation-was losing on a fishing trip this weekend, and I would be 30 millions of dollars annually. We sold that the first one to say that the fishthat I caught was company, and while that company is not out of really only this small. But when I am telling the 2916 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001 story now, it is this big, you know. I do that when they want to. The difficulty, the trouble, of occasionally, but you know there is no course, is each one of these failed ventures retaliation on these. These are matters of public added 5, 6, 10, 30, 40, 50 millions of dollars into record. the public debt, quite aside from those legitimate ball rings that were made for schools or for This is what regrettably the Filmon hospitals. These were the real nonsense items government had to clean up. This is regrettably that I take some responsibility for, every once in why we had to introduce those measures that a while rising in this Chamber and reminding called for balanced budgets. This is why we are members opposite about. Thank you, Mr. still paying over $500 million of interest on the Speaker. squandered money that could be going into health care, that could be going into education or Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of could be going into roads or farm support Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, it is with programs. great interest that I listened to the dean of the House, the member from the Interlake, talk So, Mr. Speaker, there is a great deal of about issues-[interjection] Oh, my apologies, validity from this side of the House when we the member fr om Lakeside talking about the­ look seriously at any of these government [interjection] Interlake. [interjection] Yes, the proposals having to do with Crown corporations. Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoft). I It would be my hope that-[interjection] Talk know the Member fo r Interlake has already about CFI? I wiii talk about CFI. spoken on this biii, as has the Member for Lakeside. When the Walter Weir government was defeated, there was exactly $7 million put into Mr. Speaker, this is really interesting to hear CFI. Ed Schreyer took over-exactly $7 miilion. the member talk about his concern that we are Ed Schreyer and the New Democrats then trying to equalize costs for rural Manitoba and poured $1 12 million into it thereafter, and that is he is worried that maybe the urban centre might a matter of record. It is a matter of record. have to pay a little bit more on this one. It is very interesting because they are government. When Again, that is a matter of record. So, Mr. they were in government, talked about Speaker, I am simply asking that this is not to be equalizing hydro rates, but never did anything construed-our insistence on the examination of about it. I guess they were afraid to bring some this proposal by the Public Utilities Board-as things fo rward that would equalize opportunities opposition to the bill. I have not heard my leader for people in northern and rural Manitoba. speak in opposition to this bill, in opposition to this proposal. What we are asking for is You think about it, Mr. Speaker. Hydro is accountability, and that particularly fr om a group produced in northern Manitoba. The that has a track record of which I just skimmed consequences of some of the previous decisions the surface of. with flooding of land, the impact of that is in northern Manitoba, but it is northern Manitobans There are so many other stories. When they that pay higher rates for their hydro. There are got into the Chinese food business, Mr. Speaker­ revenues that are generated fr om the mining they got into doors and building doors. It would industry in northern Manitoba that all boggle your mind. You are a new generation. It Manitobans benefit from. Although we have a bothers my members. They have not even heard real difficult situation in the agriculture industry, of all these adventures that they went into. We there is a lot of revenue that is generated from were going to push aside Disney in the form of agriculture that benefits more than just the cartoons, and we put $6 million to $7 miiiion farming community, because the farming into developing cartoon characters here. I have community is the one that is suffering. never seen any of them, but they disappeared.

* (17:40) This is about bringing some equality and These are the kinds of shenanigans that the bringing some opportunity to northern and rural New Democratic group can get themselves into Manitoba. I am surprised that the members June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2917 would have such difficulty when we are going to Manitoba and the farming community. That is bring some equality and spread the costs over in just not true. The record speaks for itself. If you a different way. What is the big worry? It is look at the steps we have taken, and we will about having this opportunity. They are so continue to take, we are standing by rural worried about this going to the PUB. Well there Manitobans and we are standing by northern are many things. Manitobans. We are standing by them with this reduction and equalization of hydro rates, and My colleague said it well: The PUB has the there are many other things that we are doing. responsibility of regulating utilities. It does not have the responsibility of regulating In the health care field, we are giving more government. This is a policy decision made by opportunities for rural students to participate in this Government. This was an election the doctor program and then come back to rural commitment that we made, that we are going to and northern Manitoba; opportunities fo r bring some equality across the province and education, more access for those students in that bring opportunities to other areas in the program that was cancelled by the previous province. I am surprised that the members government. should have such great difficulty with that. So, Mr. Speaker, this is one of the steps that I heard one of the member say across the we are taking. It is an election commitment, but way: This Government does not understand, and we are bringing equality to people across the has not done anything fo r agriculture. This is one province. I hope the members will not use the of the things we are doing. It may be a small excuse that because it did not go before the impact on the expenses of agriculture, but it adds PUB, that they cannot support it. to the other things that we did. Mr. Speaker, I want to address a couple of Today, we made an announcement, Mr. other issues. The Manitoba Telephone System Speaker, that we are going to change the which, sold by the previous government, has portioning on the taxation on farm land. The resulted in increases in costs for farmers and for previous government went from 27 to 30 rural and northern people. That is the legacy of percent. They increased the portioning, they the previous government. increased the taxes on farmland. We are reducing that to 26 percent. We are saving The member from Lakeside tried to imply farmers $7 million. Again, in the whole scheme that Saskatchewan wanted to join with them and of things, $7 million might not be much, but this, privatize their company. I am going to tell you combined with a reduction in hydro rates; the story that we heard. We heard the reduction in taxation; as well as the $150 tax Saskatchewan government tried to convince the credit that we brought for farmers; property tax provincial government to join forces and have a credit; a reduction in crop insurance premiums large utility between the two provinces, or that we brought forward, that the previous maybe join together on hydro and have a joint government did not bring forward; the resource service, a utility between two implementation of the excess moisture insurance provinces. The Conservative government would which the previous government would not bring not accept that. So SaskTel wanted to buy shares in, even though it was recommended to them and in the Manitoba Telephone System in order to they say they were planning to bring it in, they keep that opportunity to have a joint utility. The did not do that. This year, we have farmers who Conservative government would not let will not be able to seed and they are not going to Saskatchewan do that, because they wanted to have to come looking for support because they sell low so that their friends could take have $50-an-acre insurance that we have brought advantage of it, and stockbrokers could make a fo rward. lot of money, and then the rates would go up for producers. We have seen it. Telephone rates So the members opposite would like to say have gone up across the province, and how many that because they have more representation in times have they had to go back to the PUB fo r rural Manitoba, they care more about rural their rate increases? 2918 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

These people who are standing up for rural Mr. Speaker, for the members to stand in and northern Manitobans and make all these this House and to say they are not prepared to wise decisions that then come back to roost and support the equalization of hydro rates because it end up with people paying more money, it is has not gone to the PUB is a hypocritical quite amazing to think that they make all of the comment to make. On one hand, they say that wise decisions. they were going to reduce hydro rates. They did not do it. But, then, they talked about many other What else have we had? There was the things they said they were going to do for rural frozen food fiasco that was a disaster for Manitoba. I think about what they did with Manitobans, and we had to come through to try taxes, what they did- and improve on the program that was just causing havoc for patients in hospitals. The An Honourable Member: Crow rate. member tries to talk about CFI as if that was the NDP who caused that problem. He is neglecting Ms. Wowchuk: Oh, and the member reminds a part of history where it was his government, me about the Crow rate. We have this real the Conservative government, who started that hardship in rural Manitoba with our grains and whole issue that ended up costing the province a oil seeds producers. Many people do not realize lot of money. that one of the biggest problems is the increased freight rate that takes up about one-third of the You know, Mr. Speaker, the members income a farmer gets from his grains. That would want everybody to think they are the ones changed because of the elimination ofthe Crow. who have made all the big, good business Members opposite, the previous Minister of decisions. Well, I remind the members there is a Agriculture, the Member for Emerson (Mr. Jack Canola cold pressing plant that is sitting in rural Penner), were in this House saying if we Manitoba that millions of dollars were invested eliminate the Crow there are going to be all in, public money invested in. There are millions kinds of opportunity in rural Manitoba. It is just of dollars that were invested in Isobord that the going to flourish. They were going to have all previous government, these wise deci­ this value added. [i nterjection} The member asks sion-makers who know all about business and who eliminated it. It was eliminated by the the best investments-that was the previous fe deral government, but it was supported by the government. Certainly, if Isobord could be Conservative government in Manitoba. The successful, and I think we should be looking at Conservative government in Manitoba said: those kinds of ventures where we add value to Eliminate the Crow and it will be good for rural agriculture products and material that is not Manitoba. This happened at a time when grain being used, I think those are good things to be prices were high, and when the freight rates looking at. We have to look at them. But they increased a little bit nobody really noticed them. made the decision on Isobord, and they talk Now they say, oh, gee, you know, we thought about due diligence. In this one, they did not there was going to be a whole bunch of money make the right decision, and that is one that has coming to Manitoba as well and that is why we to be corrected. We have to find a way to add supported it. Your members will tell you that. value to many products in rural Manitoba. They supported it. You remember supporting the elimination of the Crow because it was going to

* (17:50) be good for rural Manitoba. [interjection] Maybe he had some second thoughts, but there You talk about adding value in rural was support for it. Manitoba but you are not prepared to equalize hydro rates so that, then, there are some So, Mr. Speaker, I am very proud of our opportunities and an incentive for business to go Government coming forward with the out to rural Manitoba. We have many equalization of hydro rates which will benefit communities that would love the opportunity to rural and northern Manitobans and bring attract business to their areas, whether it is with opportunity there. I am also proud that we have the use of natural gas or reduced hydro rates. been doing other things as well that will benefit Those are the kinds of things we need. the farming and rural community. In particular, June 13, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2919 the changing in portioning that the Minister of what we should be paying for Manitoba Hydro. I Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen) an­ agree on the equalization. I have no problem nounced today, saving $7 million in rural with the principle of equalization. But I think it Manitoba, is correcting an error of the previous is important that PUB takes a serious look at government. I am quite proud we are able to do what the actual costs are. What is the that. The changes we have made in crop Government afraid of? Is the Government afraid insurance, the additional money we were able to that the city lawyers are going to go before the get for support fo r farmers under the CMAP PUB and actually come fo rward and prove that program in 1999 and for the 2000 crop year, all they are wrong? of these things help the producers a little bit, and each of these makes a difference. I am proud of I cannot understand why they do not want to what we have been able to do to change things in have the experts look at the true costs of what rural Manitoba. their plan is. We are told that it is $14 million. It is only going to cost us $14 million. Well, we Mr. Speaker, for too long we have been cannot believe them. We do not know that it is taking advantage of the resources that are in $14 million, because we do not have the rural and northern Manitoba, and it is time to expertise in this Chamber to know the true costs. give something back. There are many more resources that can be developed. There are many more opportunities that we can build on that we We hear that they are going to be building have in rural Manitoba. We, as a government, roads in the North, and these roads are going to are going to work with the people of Manitoba to be developed and paid for by Manitoba Hydro. see that there is more equality in these areas, and Now what effect will those costs have on our also in providing services and opportunities for Manitoba Hydro rates? Is it we in the city of the people. Winnipeg who will be picking up those costs? Is it we who will be picking up a more dramatic Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. cost? I do not know that, and I would like to Speaker, it is interesting when we have these know where all the costs are. What else will the debates in the House, because this shows what NDP be spending Manitoba Hydro money for? democracy is all about. We already know that they spend their I think one of my favourite lines that I money like it grows on trees. They spend picked up in this House in a long time is one that millions of dollars advertising to bring the the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms. children of our province into our casinos. You McGifford) brought forward the other day, and know, millions of dollars get expended. that was when she stated that that was yesterday, this is today. Members are right. All The television ads are on every night to governments in the past have made decisions, show what is going on, Mr. Speaker, and here decisions that have failed, decisions that have we tum around and we are supposed to trust been successes. We can sit here, and we can talk them. We see them squandering our money, all the way back to the early 1900s, and we can throwing it out and just squandering it to try and say it was the Conservative government that bring our children into the casinos, so they can made a mistake when this building was built. We pad their pockets, so they can expend it can go back and talk about the airplanes. We can whichever way they want. So it is luck be a lady go through all of them. We can talk about when tonight, and that is the way they play it over the Pawley government was basically kicked out here. of this building, because they were fixing the rates on MPIC. I mean, that is what this is all am really sort of tom when I hear my about. It is the principle of the bill and where we colleagues talking about their openness that they are going with the process. believe in. They have always talked that they Mr. Speaker, right now we are looking at believed in openness, but here they are. They are political interference if we are talking about afraid to send it to the PUB. They even have to starting to gerrymander on putting the value of amend the legislation to not send it to the PUB. 2920 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2001

Where does the Member for Wellington system, that does not give us that right to not (Mr. Santos) stand on this? Is he aware that his send it to the PUB. We can change the law. The rates might be going up in the future? Is he member is right. We can change the law aware that he is subsidizing those rates today? tomorrow. We can also change the law that says Would he not like to have those answers put MPIC no longer has to go to the PUB, and rates before the PUB? I think that was a nod yes, and I will only go down, not up. think other members should nod that same way. What are we afraid of? Eventually they will get caught, Mr. Speaker. They got caught in the past trying to The PUB is an independent board. The gerrymander and politically rig the prices of experts can come forward and put forward Crown corporations' expenditures. I mean, they exactly what the true costs are. Let us see what looked at MPIC in the past and said: Let us not those costs are. I am glad that this member is raise the rates this year. It is an election year, and giving me the coaching, because he is giving me . right afterthe election, bang, rates went up. They the best lines here, and being a rural member, It got caught the last time. They got their royal surprises me. turfed out of this building, and it will happen again, because the public will not buy it. I think it is important that we have the accountants and the experts who know how The public will see through what they are Manitoba Hydro works, the kilowatts and all the attempting to do. There is nothing wrong with rest of it. I do not know it. I do not know the equalization, but let us use the pro�er proces�. densities. I do not know the water flows. I do not Let us send it to the PUB. That IS where It know what the storage capacity of a lake has to belongs. The act says that. Why do we have to do with the revenues of the company. I do not change the act? Why are they afraid of the know what the export costs are. I do not know transparency? What is it about the PUB that what benefits the city of Winnipeg has versus scares members opposite? Are they afraid of the the rural community. accountants, the lawyers, the experts? Are they 1 do not know what benefits we will have for afraid of the seniors? an area such as The Pas or Flin Flon where the mines are. I do not know what types of discounts Mr. Speaker: Order. When this matter is again we have to offer to these mining companies to before the House, the honourable Member for St. bring them in, but I think all those aspects Norbert will have 34 minutes remaining. should be looked at. I think we have to take the opportunity, The hour being 6 p.m., this House is because the law says we have to. The law says adjourned and stands adjourned until I 0 a.m. we should be sending it to the PUB, so even tomorrow (Thursday) though we agree with the equalization of the LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

VVednesday, June 13, 2001

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Migration Survey Stefanson; Mihychuk 2875 Presenting Petitions Labour Legislation Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Schuler; Barrett 2876 Schuler 2869 Winnipeg Casinos Reimer; McGifford 2876 Kenaston Underpass Loewen; McGifford 2879 Loewen 2869 Driedger 2869 Same-Sex Relationships Gerrard; Mackintosh 2878 Reading and Receiving Petitions Speaker's Ruling Kenaston Underpass Hickes 2881 Stefanson 2869 Loewen 2869 Driedger 2870 Members' Statements

Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Manitoba Stampede and Exhibition Schuler 2870 Pitura 2881

Ministerial Statements Career Internship Program Banquet Schellenberg 2882 2001 Venice Biennale Lemieux 2870 Waver ley Heights Community Centre Dacquay 2871 J. Smith 2882

Municipal Roads Frontier Collegiate Student Achievements Ashton 2871 Jennissen 2883 Gilleshammer 2872 Mr. AI Munroe Tabling of Reports Gerrard 2883

Thirtieth Annual Report of the ORDERS OF THE DAY Manitoba Law Reform Commission for 2000-2001 Second Readings Mackintosh 2872 Bill 28-The Labour Sponsored Investment Oral Questions Funds (Various Acts Amended) Act Mihychuk 2884 Ultrasound Technicians Murray; Doer 2872 Bill 31-The Municipal Assessment Diagnostic Testing Amendment Act Tweed; Chomiak 2874 Friesen 2885 Bill 46-The Provincial Court Amendment and Bill 7-The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act Court of Queen's Bench Amendment Act Gilleshammer 2894 Mackintosh 2886 Bill 27-The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act Bill 50-The Regional Health Authorities (2) Amdendment (Accountability) Act Chomiak 2888 Struthers 2896 Debate on Second Readings Jennissen 2899 Caldwell 2901 Bill 19-The Crown Lands Amendment Act Nevakshonoff 2903 Enns 2891 S. Smith 2906 Pitura 2892 Lemieux 2908 Bill 39-The Archives and Recordkeeping Enns 2910 Act Wowchuk 2916 Dacquay 2893 Laurendeau 2919