House of Commons Culture, Media and Sport and Welsh Affairs Committees

Pre-appointment hearing with the Government’s preferred candidate for Chairman of the S4C Authority

First Joint Report of Session 2010-12

Fifth Report from the Culture, Media and Sport Committee of Session 2010-12 Sixth Report from the Welsh Affairs Committee of Session 2010-12

Volume II: Oral evidence

Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 24 May 2011 HC 1061-II Published on 28 June 2011 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £4.00

The Culture, Media and Sport Committee

The Culture, Media and Sport Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and its associated public bodies.

Current membership Mr John Whittingdale MP (Conservative, Maldon) (Chair) Dr Thérèse Coffey MP (Conservative, Suffolk Coastal) Damian Collins MP (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe) Philip Davies MP (Conservative, Shipley) Paul Farrelly MP (Labour, Newcastle-under-Lyme) Alan Keen MP (Labour, Feltham and Heston) Mrs Louise Mensch MP (née Bagshawe) (Conservative, Corby) Mr Adrian Sanders MP (Liberal Democrat, Torbay) Jim Sheridan MP (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North) Mr Tom Watson MP (Labour, West Bromwich East)

Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the internet via www.parliament.uk.

Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at www.parliament.uk/parliament.uk/cmscom. A list of Reports of the Committee in the present Parliament is at the back of this volume.

The Reports of the Committee, the formal minutes relating to that report, oral evidence taken and some or all written evidence are available in a printed volume.

Additional written evidence may be published on the internet only.

Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Emily Commander (Clerk), Andrew Griffiths (Second Clerk), Elizabeth Bradshaw (Inquiry Manager), Ian Hook (Senior Committee Assistant), Keely Bishop/Alison Pratt (Committee Assistants), Steven Price, (Committee Support Assistant) and Jessica Bridges-Palmer (Media Officer).

Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 6188; the Committee’s email address is [email protected] The Welsh Affairs Committee

The Welsh Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of the Office of the Secretary of State for (including relations with the National Assembly for Wales).

Current membership David T.C. Davies MP (Conservative, Monmouth) (Chair) MP (Conservative, Pudsey) Guto Bebb MP (Conservative, Aberconwy) MP (Conservative, Vale of Glamorgan), Geraint Davies MP (Labour, Swansea West) Jonathan Edwards MP (, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Mrs Siân C. James MP (Labour, Swansea East) Susan Elan Jones MP (Labour, Clwyd South) Karen Lumley MP (Conservative, Redditch) MP (Labour, Newport East) MP (Labour, Pontypridd) Mr Mark Williams MP (Liberal Democrat, Ceredigion)

The following Members were members of the committee during the Parliament:

Glyn Davies MP (Conservative, Montgomeryshire) MP (Labour, Llanelli)

Powers The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the internet via www.parliament.uk

Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at www.parliament.uk/welshcom

The Reports of the Committee, the formal minutes relating to that report, oral evidence taken and some or all written evidence are available in printed volumes.

Additional written evidence may be published on the internet only.

Committee staff The current staff of the Committee is Adrian Jenner (Clerk), Anwen Rees (Inquiry Manager), Jenny Nelson (Senior Committee Assistant), Dabinder Rai (Committee Assistant), and Jessica Bridges-Palmer (Media Officer).

Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Welsh Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 3264; and the Committee’s email address is [email protected] Witnesses

Tuesday 24 May 2011 Page

Huw Jones Ev 1

cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [23-06-2011 12:21] Job: 012693 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/012693/012693_o001_mick_HC 1061 corrected.xml

Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 1

Oral evidence

Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee on Tuesday 24 May 2011

Members present: David T. C. Davies took the Chair

Stuart Andrew Paul Farrelly Ms Louise Bagshawe Susan Elan Jones Guto Bebb Jessica Morden Alun Cairns Mr Adrian Sanders Damian Collins Tom Watson Geraint Davies Mr Mark Williams David T. C. Davies Mr John Whittingdale Jonathan Edwards ______

Examination of Witness

Witness: Huw Jones, Government’s preferred candidate for post of Chairman of the S4C Authority, gave evidence.

Q1 Chair: Bore da, Mr Jones. Diolch am ddod have an interest in S4C—the general public, Members heddiw. Yn amlwg, does yna ddim gwasanaethau of Parliament, Assembly Members and so forth—have cyfieithu, ac nid yw’r mwyafrif yma yn siarad confidence and have an understanding of how S4C is Cymraeg… [Good morning, Mr Jones. Thank you for facing up to the various challenges that it will face coming today. Obviously, there are no translation and that it feels confidence in the Authority and the facilities and the majority here do not speak Welsh… Executive to face those challenges and to make the ] so we will carry on in English, if that is all right right decisions. with you. Obviously, you have seen the brief, and the purpose Q2 Chair: The relationship between S4C and the of this is not a political discussion at all; it is just to Government appeared to break down completely at look into your abilities as a potential leader within one point last year, to the point where there was talk S4C. May I begin by asking you a fairly obvious of judicial reviews and all sorts of other things. From question? You will be aware from what has been your point of view, do you think that that is going on over the past year—not to mention our own acceptable—one would assume not—and what are report—that there have been some issues and you going to do to try to ensure that you have a good, problems within S4C. We actually said in our report healthy working relationship with DCMS Ministers that S4C became the story for a long time. What is it and other relevant people in Government? that you will do to try to make sure that S4C is not Huw Jones: The simple answer to that is to talk to the story, and that we are not reading about the people consistently, regularly and honestly, so that we management, resignations and sackings every week in have a clear understanding of issues that are coming The Western Mail? our way from Government—concerns that Huw Jones: I think it is indeed a responsibility of the Government may have—but so that also Government Chairman to try to ensure that that sort of thing does understand what are critical issues for S4C. Clearly, not happen. There are several aspects to the solutions the period we are going into now is a very critical to that. First, I am glad that if I am appointed I will period, which is full of difficulties and full of have an opportunity to be part of the process of unknowns, and I would want to make sure that appointing the new Chief Executive. That will enable Government are fully aware of our concerns and how me, hopefully, to appoint—along with the rest of the the discussions will work through. Authority—a person in whom we will be able to invest our confidence and with whom we will be able Q3 Chair: Finally from me, it is very important that to work in moving the channel forward. the holder of the Chair is seen as being politically Secondly, there is the need to work closely with the impartial. I cannot help but ask you about your other members of the Authority to understand issues previous, very strong involvement with Sain, which that may be of concern to people, to anticipate where was clearly putting out a lot of music that was discussions and disagreements may arise in Authority certainly not very supportive of the Conservative meetings, and to try to ensure that concerns are party—as is your right, indeed, as a private individual. ventilated and that agreement is reached on the basis I look and I listen to it, and I enjoy some of the songs of the best possible solution moving forward. There is myself, but I think that the person responsible for this also a clear need for S4C to be as transparent as is going to find it quite difficult, perhaps, to be possible, so that the wide range of stakeholders who politically impartial. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [23-06-2011 12:21] Job: 012693 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/012693/012693_o001_mick_HC 1061 corrected.xml

Ev 2 Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

24 May 2011 Huw Jones

Huw Jones: I can only think of one song that Sain difficult for me to say, “This is how it will be,” ever produced that was directly critical of any because I do not know how it will be. If we want Conservative party member, and that is in a period of to discuss the BBC relationship at this point in the 12 years of publishing records of all kinds, from folk discussion, I am happy to do so, because for me it music to choirs and all sorts of things. There is a should not be impossible to arrive at an agreement parallel there between the need for S4C to maintain whereby the BBC Trust is enabled to have the degree its editorial independence and the right to publish of oversight that it needs in order to say that it is whatever it is of quality that artists wish to produce ensuring that the licence fee money is being used for without fear or favour. I am entirely proud of the part public purposes. that Sain played in providing a platform for creative On the other hand, the need for S4C to retain its activity in Welsh at that time. I have not had any independence of operation and its editorial political activity for many years. When I was Chief independence is something I would be keen to secure Executive of S4C, I was scrupulous in maintaining for practical reasons. The S4C Authority was created connections and, I think, good relations with Members as an independent authority originally because there of Parliament and Assembly Members of all parties. was a need to reassure people in Wales and Welsh That would be my objective if appointed as Chairman. speakers that there would be a body whose priority Chair: Diolch yn fawr. I will just bring in the Chair and whole reason for existence would be to provide a of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, then service. As Ian Hargreaves said in his Alun Cairns. submissions to the Welsh Affairs Committee, the BBC “has many mansions” and there is clearly a concern Q4 Mr Whittingdale: Can I explore with you how that, if you don’t have an authority with proper powers you see your role as Chairman of the Authority? In and abilities to look after the interests of Welsh- some ways there are parallels with the Chairman of speaking viewers, those interests might at times be the BBC Trust, in that you have the specific subsumed in greater matters. responsibilities as a regulator, in providing strategic Secondly, while I was the Chief Executive of S4C, oversight, and as a broadcaster. You will be aware that I am convinced that we were able, because of our there has been a lot of criticism of how the BBC Trust independent situation, to secure certain advantages for works, partially because there appears to be a conflict S4C that we would not have been able to do had we between being a regulator and setting the overall not been independent. In particular, when digital strategic direction. Do you not think there is a similar capacity was being allocated, we needed to fight very conflict within the Authority? hard to ensure that we were allocated equivalent Huw Jones: I think partly one of the problems which capacity in Wales to other broadcasters. Likewise, for arose with S4C was that, because of the awareness of the position on the EPG, which is a very important these dilemmas that the BBC was facing in securing factor in how viewers access channels, we had to fight an appropriate distance between the Trust and the to be No. 4 in Wales. Executive, S4C felt the need to try to replicate that. I Thirdly, as we get into discussions with the BBC never felt that that sort of rigid separation was about cost savings, possible collocation and so forth, necessary. It is entirely right for the Authority to I am sure there will be proposals from the BBC to do understand that it is there to hold the Executive to something in a certain way because it will be account, on behalf of the public and on behalf of advantageous all around. But in that situation, it is viewers. It should have proper structures to do that, of which one is the regulatory function of dealing with very important that S4C should be able to sit back and complaints. The scale of the operation, however, is decide in the context of Welsh-speaking viewers and not such as to require that rigid division of the Welsh language service whether it is a good deal, responsibilities that the BBC seeks. As long as people rather than looking at it simply in the context of the understand what the different responsibilities are— BBC as a whole. that the Chief Executive is there to lead the executive Lastly, the reality is that S4C and the BBC are, quite team and to propose programme strategies and that properly, in competition with each other for viewers the Authority is there to discuss them and approve in Wales. S4C needs to be able to chase the best them, or reject them if necessary, and to monitor actors, the best ideas, the best events and sports rights, performance against those objectives—it is possible and so forth if it is to have a chance to compete. So to have good working relationships that do not cost independence of action is a key criterion for me, and the earth. I hope that we can secure it.

Q5 Mr Whittingdale: In the new world, once we Q6 Mr Whittingdale: I understand the importance to move to a position where you are receiving finance you of independence, but do you accept the argument directly from a licence fee, your responsibility is to that if you are receiving money from the BBC, the provide strategic oversight. We are also told, however, BBC is entitled to have some oversight as to how that that the Chairman of the BBC Trust sees a role for the money is spent? BBC in overseeing the spending of licence fee payers’ Huw Jones: I do, and how that is achieved is what I money. Are you going to consult with the Chairman am looking forward to discussing. I don’t think it is of the BBC Trust on the strategic oversight of S4C? impossible to have something of the nature of a dual Huw Jones: The nature of the relationship with the remit, so that the remit S4C receives from Parliament BBC is to be discussed and negotiated in the coming in statute is paralleled in the form of a licence from weeks. Until that discussion has been completed, it is the BBC Trust, with a parallel accounting path, for cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [23-06-2011 12:21] Job: 012693 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/012693/012693_o001_mick_HC 1061 corrected.xml

Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 3

24 May 2011 Huw Jones example. That is one option which would work, and sometime next year, and my commitment to the Wales there might be others. Employment and Skills Board runs until December. Chair: Thanks for that introduction. We have quite a Portmeirion is about a day a month, or a day and a lot of questions to get through, so I ask everyone to half. be as concise as possible, which will help us get through this quickly. Q11 Mr Sanders: Are you still Chairman of Portmeirion Ltd’s visitor attractions and hotels, and Q7 Jonathan Edwards: Bore da, Mr Jones. are you still a chair and consultant of a media Llongyfarchiadau ar eich apwyntiad. What made you training agency? apply for the position, because it has been a pretty Huw Jones: I intend to give Cyfle Cyf up, because I difficult year for S4C? think there is a conflict of interest. Huw Jones: My whole working life has been involved with trying to ensure that modern platforms Q12 Mr Sanders: What about chairing the sub- of communication are available to Welsh speakers and groups on sector skills councils? the Welsh language, going back to the music industry, Huw Jones: That is part of the Wales Employment to which Mr Davies has already referred, but primarily and Skills Board work, which I anticipate reducing of course S4C. The arrival of S4C was a huge step but not giving up entirely. forward in providing such a platform, and I was privileged to be part of the process of creating an Q13 Mr Watson: What essential skills and qualities independent production sector and, later, being does the job require? involved as Chief Executive of S4C. Huw Jones: In the job description, or the list of skills For me, therefore, S4C is hugely important for the in the advert, the two which came at the top related Welsh language and its survival. In fact, I don’t think first to an understanding of and a commitment to any minority language is going to survive in this S4C’s objectives, and secondly to leadership qualities modern world unless it has modern media platforms and experience of chairing organisations. I think I can available to it, so I was greatly concerned by the offer those two. I don’t think my understanding of events of the past year. I think that the coming period S4C’s objectives is restricted to the fact that I was is very critical for S4C and if I can play a part in Chief Executive for nearly 12 years; it relates also to securing its future, I am honoured to offer my the fact that before that I was an independent services. producer, so I have an understanding of its perspectives. I was also Chairman of a facilities Q8 Jonathan Edwards: Were you headhunted, company, so my understanding of how the industry informally or formally, or did you reply to a formal fits together is an asset. advert? Perhaps the leadership issues are even more relevant Huw Jones: No, I applied in response to the advert. and important as criteria here. In that respect, I think most people would give me some credit for playing a Q9 Mr Sanders: We, as the Culture, Media and lead role in the development of the independent Sport Committee, asked the proposed Chairman of the television industry in north-west Wales. At S4C I BBC Trust about the amount of time he could devote needed to take the lead in forming a strategy for to the job given his extensive outside interests. In our digital television when it arrived. In more recent report we were quite critical, despite the fact that he years, the role that I play as Chairman of Portmeirion actually volunteered, almost at that meeting, to give and of being on the range of bodies that we have just up some of his outside interests. The role has been referred to has given me a perspective of how other advertised on the basis of needing three days a week. organisations work, the relationships between Chairs How much of your time do you envisage devoting to and Chief Executives, and so forth, which I think will the job? be valuable assets. Huw Jones: I anticipate that it will be three days a week plus. I have other interests, but there’s no Q14 Mr Watson: Would it be fair to say that, given question that if I’m appointed, this would be my that the job requires a background in television, some priority, and I would devote to it whatever is needed. strategic leadership in a management role and the At the same time, it is useful and beneficial for a ability to speak Welsh, the field of candidates who Chairman of such an authority to retain outside may be suitable for the job is very narrow? interests. It is a way of not going native too fast, and Huw Jones: That may be true—[Laughter.] It doesn’t of retaining the external perspective that you get from necessarily mean that the quality of those applying is mixing in different circles. I would want to retain any less. some of those connections, although some of my Chair: Did you have a brief supplementary question, current activities would of necessity be reduced. Mr Cairns?

Q10 Mr Sanders: What sort of time do those other Q15 Alun Cairns: With your permission, Chair, I commitments take up at present? can probably tie in my question. It relates to the Huw Jones: At present, for example, the Welsh questions that both you and your fellow Select Language Board takes a day and a half a month, and Committee Chair asked about S4C itself becoming the the Wales Employment and Skills Board ranges news story, and to another question that he asked— between about four and five days a month. The Welsh how do you plan to manage the relationship with the Language Board, of course, will cease to exist BBC, and lead in that? Mr Jones, it is fair to say that cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [23-06-2011 12:21] Job: 012693 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/012693/012693_o001_mick_HC 1061 corrected.xml

Ev 4 Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

24 May 2011 Huw Jones there have been some pretty destructive members of Authority is sitting, it is sitting as an Authority, the Authority over the last year, to the detriment of holding the Executive to account, and using, as Sir the channel. How do you propose to manage the Jon Shortridge suggests, a number of sub-committees situation with members of the Authority? to support it in that function. At the same time, it is Huw Jones: I propose to take people as I find them. important that there is an understanding and If you ask me what would be the most useful use of dialogue—regular dialogue—particularly between the my time as Chair in these coming months, I don’t Chief Executive and the Chair, to allow the best to be think it would be to look backwards and conduct some extracted from both sides. sort of investigation into who did what and who said what. There is an awful lot to be done in securing the Q20 Stuart Andrew: I think we have already new arrangement with the BBC, appointing the Chief covered political independence, but how would you Executive, and coming to terms with budget cuts and demonstrate that you would stand up to DCMS so forth. I wasn’t there, so I do not know what Ministers and any pressure you might get from the happened exactly—I have perhaps the same BBC, purely in the interests of the channel? perceptions as you from outside. What I do know is Huw Jones: As I said, the ability to stand up—your that I have a belief in my own ability to get people to term—to the BBC depends on whether S4C has the work together and to act reasonably in the context of independence of action to do that. It is a key question, meetings that are conducted properly. and this will need to be safeguarded, in my opinion. You referred specifically to independence from the Q16 Alun Cairns: But some members of the BBC, but you also mentioned DCMS. There are many Authority say that they do not want to deal with the aspects of independence that S4C, like any BBC at any cost. How do you propose to get your broadcaster, needs to secure. There are pressures from deal with the BBC if some members of the Authority all sorts of directions—pressure not to broadcast a are taking that attitude? programme, for example, because people are unhappy Huw Jones: You have the advantage over me—I had about something they think will be said in it. At that not heard that quote. My view is that a deal with the point, you ensure that the editor-in-chief and his team BBC is a practical necessity, because otherwise the have the right to broadcast whatever they think it is money for S4C to commission programmes for 2013 appropriate to broadcast. You then take account of any onwards is not going to be there. That has been made complaints in due course and investigate them pretty clear to us. I would hope that the intellectual properly and thoroughly; and, where necessary, you strength of that kind of argument would enable apply sanctions. everybody to gather round, as long as the agreement There are other forms of pressure that can be brought reached with the BBC was a reasonable one. to bear that are more benign. One is aware of people wanting S4C to do things which have a side benefit— Q17 Alun Cairns: When will you resume the process maybe an economic or a cultural side benefit. It is of appointing the Chief Executive? important that S4C retains its independence in those Huw Jones: As soon as possible. That would be one respects as well, while listening very carefully to what of my main priorities. people want from the channel. Those pressures may come from the DCMS or the Welsh Assembly Q18 Alun Cairns: What sort of qualities would you Government, for example. There is a balance to be be looking for in a Chief Executive in order to balance struck between the willingness to listen to legitimate your skills and those of the management leader? concerns and the absolute responsibility to ensure that, Huw Jones: I would be looking for a Chief Executive at the end of the day, decisions are made with integrity with the ability to lead a team, to get the best out of for the benefit of viewers. people and to communicate effectively with all sectors of the industry, as well as with internal staff. I would Q21 Guto Bebb: First, I remember very well the be looking for someone who is able to articulate a record about the former Conservative Prime Minister, vision of the nature of the service going forward. That which was, if I remember correctly, banned by the ability to work with people while being a leader is the BBC. Sain Records stood up to the BBC at the time, quality I will be looking for. so I hope you will carry on that track record. However, you were the Chief Executive of S4C for Q19 Alun Cairns: There has been much criticism of 11 years, and I have a degree of concern about the the separation between the Authority and the fact that the channel is also looking for a Chief management. What model would you pursue, and Executive, as Mr Cairns pointed out. Do you think what role did you play in setting up that separation that the fact you were the senior person in S4C for a model? long period and will now be the Chairman will Huw Jones: I played no role in setting up that prohibit some people from applying for the job, separation model; it happened after I left as Chief because they will feel that you will be a backseat Executive. The advice given by Sir Jon Shortridge is driver? very useful in providing a model, in that, as I Huw Jones: I can understand the concern. I very mentioned before, the rigid separation is not much hope that that would not be the case. I would necessary, but a degree of formality is important. I go out of my way to ensure that the Chief Executive would want to ensure that Authority meetings are has the freedom to act as Chief Executive. I have been conducted according to a fairly set pattern of events away from S4C for nearly six years, so there is no to be discussed, so that it is quite clear that when the question of my going back in to pick up where I left cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [23-06-2011 12:21] Job: 012693 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/012693/012693_o001_mick_HC 1061 corrected.xml

Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 5

24 May 2011 Huw Jones off—not at all. Also, I have been doing other things Q24 Mr Williams: The Welsh Affairs Committee for nearly six years—things which have been to do had a trip up to visit BBC ALBA. We were very with governance in a range of different bodies. For interested to see the model there. I think it struck example, being part of the RSPB Council has been an many of us that the origins of BBC ALBA were very enriching experience, which has let me see how a different from the origins of S4C, but there is still major charity strikes the right balance between reference made to that as a possible way forward. reporting to its council and delivering on its executive How divergent do you think that the experience of actions. I think I have a clear understanding of what BBC ALBA and S4C really is? is needed. Actually, having been Chief Executive, one Huw Jones: I think they are very different situations. knows what one wants from a Chair, and I think I I think that, having had the benefit of an independent would bring that to bear. I have no concerns, and I Authority since 1982, S4C and Wales are aware of the hope I could very quickly allay other people’s benefits that that can deliver and what it signifies. concerns on that score. BBC ALBA was a solution to the question of how to move forward in Scotland from where they were. I congratulate the people involved in BBC ALBA for Q22 Guto Bebb: On the second point, I reiterate making it work as they have, but that does not meant Alun Cairns’s comments about the concern that the that it is, of necessity, the right way for S4C. Authority is not changing, even though there is a feeling that there is a need for a fresh, new S4C. More Q25 Mr Williams: Just one other point—it is more important in my view are the stories in the Welsh of a request than a question. The importance that we media that indicate a degree of disengagement and in Wales attach to the community work that S4C has low morale among S4C staff. As the Chairman, how always undertaken should not be understated. I think would you address the continuous stories we get about you appreciate the need for that to continue in a very morale at S4C being very low? robust way. It has been a great success story. Huw Jones: Whether that is true, I am not sure. One Huw Jones: Yes. One of the things that I am quite has also heard stories more recently of people keen to ensure is that S4C’s impact on society is gathering and working well together. I would like to measured as well as possible. It is real, and I think it think that the appointment of a permanent Chair is the is a legitimate performance indicator, which has not first step in giving direction and giving stability. been properly captured to date. As you say, the impact Clearly, there has been instability there. This is the on people’s use of the language and their familiarity first step, hopefully. Appointing a chief executive is with different dialects, and the assistance given to the second step. Coming to an agreement with the learners—particularly the contribution to children BBC hopefully is a third step. This is a period of great learning Welsh and so forth—are all important social change—no question about it. I will try to provide impacts that S4C has achieved. There are economic steady leadership, while addressing these major impacts as well, but I agree with you—this should concerns and major issues about new relationships. continue. Q26 Mr Williams: Q23 Mr Williams: I want to probe a bit more. You But often the figures do not bear that out. That is the reality. have covered a lot of ground in terms of S4C’s Huw Jones: That is the dichotomy, isn’t it? independence and the need to maintain its distinct identity. Sir Michael Lyons, the outgoing Chair of the BBC Trust, gave a commitment to a creatively Q27 Chair: Mr Jones, this is a key issue for us, and I think there is one other supplementary. As I see it, independent S4C. What do you think he meant by S4C has been independent but answerable to DCMS “creatively independent”? Is that a term that you think up until now. Surely, therefore, it should be possible addresses a lot of the concerns that have been to devise a system that allows S4C to remain expressed in Select Committee reports and, indeed, in independent, but in some way answerable to the BBC, the correspondence that many of us, as MPs, have as it was previously, jointly perhaps with DCMS, and been getting? possibly with the Welsh Assembly having an input at Huw Jones: A number of different terms have been some point in the future. Surely, it is not beyond our used to describe the potential new relationship, capacity to devise a system that allows independence haven’t they? That is one of them. I prefer the term with an element of answerability to one or more used by the Secretary of State in his letter to the bodies? former Chairman of S4C, which is a commitment to Huw Jones: I agree. That is my position. S4C continuing as an independent entity. Now, all these phrases have a quite a lot of wriggle room, and Q28 Jonathan Edwards: There seems to be I am fully aware that the devil is in the detail. I am consensus around the need for operational and not quite sure what more I can say, except that I want editorial independence, but can you state in a to get involved in those discussions. I know that they paragraph exactly what that would mean as far as you have started, but they have not finished. I welcome are concerned for your position? the interest taken in this subject by these two Huw Jones: I think the key aspect is that the S4C Committees. I think it is very important that people Authority should have a majority of independent do understand the nature of the agreement at the end people on it, and that, although there might well be a of the day and what is involved, so that the service member of the BBC Trust, for example—in fact, I can benefit. would welcome that as a development—the S4C cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [23-06-2011 12:21] Job: 012693 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/012693/012693_o001_mick_HC 1061 corrected.xml

Ev 6 Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

24 May 2011 Huw Jones

Executive is not controlled by the BBC in any way. It you have some freedom of manoeuvre and certainty is a genuinely independent executive body appointed for the future? by the S4C Authority. That, for me, is key. Huw Jones: There is a logic in that, isn’t there? The question of what happens at the end of the four-year Q29 Guto Bebb: I accept the points you just made agreement is a matter of considerable concern to many about BBC ALBA not being the same as S4C, but people. If ways can be found to allay that concern, there are examples of good practice there. One that would go a long way to helping people to believe example is the way in which the BBC ALBA that, yes, the Government are sincere in their television service is interlinked with the radio services commitment to S4C’s future. in gaelic. There is a question as to why we have almost a competition between Radio Cymru Q34 Paul Farrelly: Is that a yes? Do you want a deal broadcasting in Welsh and S4C, where you have until 2016? programmes appealing to the same audience going out Huw Jones: What is clear to me is that the Secretary at the same time. Do you think that the relationship of State has said that there will be a review of S4C with the BBC will help to create a more integrated before the end of this four-year period. Let us take approach to both radio and television? that at face value and assume that that is what is going Huw Jones: I would like to think it is possible. Radio to happen. That gives S4C and myself in particular, Cymru is, in many senses, a sister service to S4C. It because my appointment is a four-year appointment— has many of the same challenges and issues. In there is a certain parallel there—a very clear focus for investigating solutions, we should be happy to share a strategy. We want S4C to come out of that review solutions. I would hope that that would be one of the with all the boxes ticked, with a secure future and a side benefits of the new relationship, yes. secure funding formula for the future, and with support from all sectors of society in Wales and in broadcasting. To do that, the next two or three years Q30 Paul Farrelly: Mr Jones, do you share my ever have to be a process of getting things right on all so slight feeling of irony that we, as parliamentarians fronts, ensuring that there is a wide understanding of from both Committees, are having a say in your what S4C needs to secure its future. That gives us a appointment when neither the Welsh Assembly nor programme of work, but, as you say, that secure future Parliament nor even S4C had any say in its future is a key objective. Whether it is to be achieved now arrangements when it was put under the ambit of the or as an outcome of that review process, both are BBC? desirable. Huw Jones: I share that concern. It was disturbing Chair: We will take that as a yes. I am sure that it that that sort of decision could be taken without will have a lot of support on the Committee. consultation with S4C. The contrast with the level of discussion that took place with the BBC was obvious Q35 Damian Collins: Following on from that, will and, yes, it is a matter of concern and I would very you be arguing with the BBC for, effectively, a slice much prefer that it had not happened in that way. of the licence fee to be ring-fenced for you rather than negotiating year by year for lumps of money from Q31 Paul Farrelly: Have you given any thought at the BBC? all to how you might have reacted at the time had you Huw Jones: Certainly, S4C does not want to be in a been Chairman then? position of negotiating year by year. What we have on Huw Jones: That is very difficult. I can only say that the table at the moment is a four-year solution, of I would like to think—although I have no right to say which the last two years are being funded by the BBC, it—that it would not have got that far and that we so in a way we have a two-year BBC arrangement at would have been in sufficient communication that the moment. I think we will be looking for a formula, options could have been discussed in the same way as whether it is related to a proportion of the licence fee they were discussed with the BBC. or to something else, as it could well be, but there needs to be stability that gives S4C independence of Q32 Paul Farrelly: We were very critical in our action of the same kind that it has enjoyed in the past, report that S4C seemed like the innocent victim of a and of the same kind that the BBC seeks and enjoys drive-by shooting, where the target was the BBC but through its funding arrangement with the the target shot back and S4C got caught in the Government. crossfire. Gavyn Davies had a particular reaction when the BBC was caught in some crossfire before: Q36 Damian Collins: Going back to questions that he resigned. Would you have had strong feelings have already been raised and that are linked to this, about that in a similar way? are you concerned that, even if S4C has independence Huw Jones: Again, it is very difficult for me to put of action, the responsibility for how you act and how myself in that exact position. As I say, I would like to you spend public money will ultimately rest with the think that we would not have been in that position so BBC Trust? When the Chairman of the BBC Trust that that question would not have arisen. came before the Culture, Media and Sport Committee in December, he was very clear that, in terms of value Q33 Paul Farrelly: You may not have known about for money and the use of public funds, it would be the it, but let me ask you a final question. The BBC has BBC Trust’s responsibility to determine your actions. secured itself a settlement until 2016. Will you be Huw Jones: Value for money, of course, is a key seeking a similar settlement from the BBC, so that consideration. The S4C Authority will have a duty to cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [23-06-2011 12:21] Job: 012693 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/012693/012693_o001_mick_HC 1061 corrected.xml

Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 7

24 May 2011 Huw Jones ensure value for money as part of its own function. I Huw Jones: I noted this discussion at the— understand that the BBC Trust will also wish to Chair: It was only a thought. I call Susan Elan Jones. reassure itself regarding value for money. We also know that there are questions about whether the Q41 Susan Elan Jones: Bore da, Mr Jones. I noted National Audit Office should come in to ensure that your predecessor, John Walter Jones, argued in his the BBC Trust is providing value for money. There is resignation letter for a process of renewal for S4C. As potential there for an excess of zeal in respect of value you will know, the Welsh Affairs Committee has spent for money. It is obviously a key question, and ways a long time looking at issues to do with S4C. One will have to be found to ensure that the appropriate thing we did quite successfully was debunk some of mechanisms for identifying value for money happen the nonsense, to be frank, seen in some elements of at the right level without duplication along the line. the popular media in terms of things like share of viewership. We proved quite conclusively, for Q37 Damian Collins: I used the words that the instance, that the Welsh version of “Question Time”, previous Chairman of the BBC Trust used. On that “Pawb a’i Farn”, had a more than equivalent share in basis, are you concerned that, if the Trust turned terms of the numbers of people who speak Welsh. around and said, “Actually, we think we could deliver Ditto with “Pobl y Cwm” and “EastEnders”, and on pubic service broadcasting in the Welsh language, we went through many of those issues. We very much through BBC Wales, more effectively than you can in came to the conclusion that S4C was providing value certain areas,” it may decide to divert some of the for money. We saw many positives. Of course, we saw resource there? many things that we wanted to see improved, but what Huw Jones: That would depend on whether it had the I want to know is this: do you think there is a need right to do that. As things stand, it does not have the for a root-and-branch review of the purpose of S4C right to divert from S4C, as I understand it. The and how do you think that will work? question is what happens at the end of the four years. Huw Jones: I think probably yes. I think it is timely, I think that that is where it is legitimate to have an given everything that has happened, given the number open discussion, with all parties contributing their of voices which have wanted a say about what S4C views as to what is the best way of delivering this does and given the proliferation of new media and service. With that in mind, my intention would be to new platforms which are out there now and the ensure that it is clear that the best way is through an questions about what S4C’s duty or opportunity is in independent Authority. respect of them. That does make it timely to think about all these questions from a new basis, if you like. Q38 Chair: Are there other ways in which you think It does not mean that some of the old questions go S4C can increase its income? away—the old questions having to do with how to Huw Jones: I think the commercial environment is provide for a core audience whose expectation is that challenging. It is going to be difficult for S4C to there will be at least three hours of new programming increase its advertising income, and commercial every day, and the expectations of a lighter viewer activities opportunities come along once in a while. who wants something occasionally to energise them S4C does not have a commercial structure, anyway, and make them excited about the Welsh language. to take advantage of new opportunities as they come I would like to think that there are programme along. It is quite difficult for it to act as a venture solutions that bridge those different aspirations. It is capitalist, if you like. I am not entirely sure. I think right, I think, for the independent sector to have its co-productions and sales into the international market say. It is right for different viewing representatives to are always opportunities if the product is right. The have their say as well. I would like to think that that opportunities are probably more in that direction than is precisely what we will do, as I said, working up to in others. the review, which is going to take place in about two and a half years’ time, as I see it. That is precisely Q39 Damian Collins: You do not think you will what we will do: engage with people to find new grow your revenue from commercial advertising. solutions. Presumably, that means you do not think there is an opportunity to grow audience share for S4C Q42 Susan Elan Jones: One of my fears from all programming, which will be linked to the value of this, when people speak about viewer share, is the sort the airtime. of nightmare world where we think, “Right, let’s have Huw Jones: This is a question of scale. I think the a programme that’s popular. Actually, all that’s going question relates to whether there is a substantial to happen is that people will press the red button and opportunity to increase commercial revenues as a watch it in English, but we get the numbers up that proportion of total revenues. That is what I was way.” That is not what S4C is for, is it? How do you reflecting there. Obviously, I would like to hope that see S4C being able to engage with more people in there is a chance to increase audiences, but the scale terms of watching high-quality programming? of S4C’s advertising revenue is something in the Another thing that we also debunked was the view region of £2 million at the moment, so it is a question that people have of the numbers of Welsh speakers of proportion. and the role of the Welsh language in Wales. There is a view that about 20% of the people in Wales speak Q40 Chair: Do you think that providing senior Welsh and that what Welsh broadcasting is about is members of staff with BUPA health care is value for giving these viewers a little pat on the head every now money? and again. If we are to look at Welsh as a growing cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [23-06-2011 12:21] Job: 012693 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/012693/012693_o001_mick_HC 1061 corrected.xml

Ev 8 Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

24 May 2011 Huw Jones language, and I hope we are, how are we to deal with Assembly Government. Maybe there is a way of that, in families very much like my own, where some formalising that. people speak Welsh and some do not? How do we do it in a creative and relevant way, which is not just Q45 Jessica Morden: How would you like to see a about getting junk programming on there that people formalised arrangement done? could watch through the medium of English, which Huw Jones: S4C could report, possibly, to an would make a nonsense of what S4C is for? Assembly Committee which would have a brief to Huw Jones: I agree that distinctiveness has to be one form a view. of the features of the service—originality and quality. It is hugely important, in order to achieve that, that Q46 Geraint Davies: What criteria would you use to the commissioning processes strike the right balance measure the success or failure of your chairmanship? between efficiencies and economies of scale on one Huw Jones: It will be very much in terms of the hand, which need to be sought, and on the other hand, outcome of this review, which sets the future of S4C making sure that priority is given to the most creative for the period following the comprehensive spending solutions and the best ideas. I don’t think that that’s review period. I would be looking for that review to impossible, but work needs to be done on it to ensure give S4C a seal of approval and a firm foundation for that that takes place. the future.

Q43 Jessica Morden: Given that Mark Williams put Q47 Geraint Davies: On direct outcomes and his pitch in for community impact, I want to ask about outputs, what about the quality and quantity of your commitment to children’s programming, which I viewing figures, engagement with the Welsh think is excellent and one of the great things about community, with universities and schools, and the S4C. Given the new relationship, the spending cuts reputation of S4C? and the difficulty of measuring viewing figures for Huw Jones: I would hope that those four performance children, if successful, will you have a commitment headings that I have described would capture all of to maintaining children’s output? that, and that they are sufficiently broad to reflect what Huw Jones: Yes, because if there is agreement about people think S4C is for, and that therefore S4C is anything, it is about the impact of children’s achieving what they think it is for. It is about all those programmes—the children’s service, Cyw—on so things: programme quality, audience appreciation and many people, especially, obviously, on parents trying a wider role in the community. I am not sure how to raise their children speaking Welsh. much time we have, but there are so many headings It is important to strike an appropriate balance to that. For instance, there is the whole question of between different performance measures. First, one the contribution to digital skills in the wider clearly needs to measure who is watching, and when community. S4C is a major independent Welsh organisation, which has contributed enormously in all and how many, so you need measurements of share, sorts of different ways, and can do so again, and will reach and numbers and we need to discuss exactly do so again, I am sure. which ones, because I noted the discussion you had in the Welsh Affairs Committee—was it 15-minute Q48 Mr Whittingdale: Can I press you a little on reach; was it monthly or weekly 15-minute reach, or the performance of S4C? There are about 600,000 whatever? There is a bit of confusion out there. The people who speak Welsh. One assumes that the vast question of appreciation is hugely important, because majority of them—probably 95%—watch television. we know that S4C is working when people say, “Did While I accept that there are various different ways you see that programme? Wasn’t it fantastic? I’m by which you can measure reach, the most common really glad I saw that. Are you going to watch it?” So one is whether 15 minutes has been watched. On that we need to capture audience appreciation—there are basis, you are reaching one in four of Welsh language ways of doing that, and at the moment it is not done speakers. Since they do not have any other Welsh sufficiently. We have talked about value for money, language television station to watch, do you not think another major heading. Fourth is the question of that that is a pretty poor figure? impact, which is what you were driving at there. If Huw Jones: No broadcaster would say that they we can get a balance between those four performance wouldn’t like better viewing figures. Certainly, I headings, I think we have a way of discussing, would be driving for the most striking viewing figures honestly, whether S4C is doing what it’s meant to do. possible, but all these questions about performance have to be looked at in the context of the role of the Q44 Jessica Morden: In the Welsh Affairs Welsh language more generally in people’s lives. Committee report we recommended a greater scrutiny What we know about those 600,000 Welsh speakers role for the Assembly. Do you think that is a good is that probably only 46% consider themselves to be idea? fluent in Welsh. There are others within that 46% who Huw Jones: Engagement with the Welsh Assembly is are living in homes where not everybody speaks very important. If there is agreement that measuring Welsh. So the role of the Welsh language in people’s these indirect impacts is important, clearly, in that lives varies enormously. That has to be taken into sense, the Welsh Assembly Government would be the account and is the essential challenge for the right body to comment on whether S4C is achieving broadcaster in deciding what sort of service it that sort of impact, because language policies and provides. As I said, the people who live in homes economic policies are the responsibility of the Welsh where everybody speaks Welsh are likely to want an cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [23-06-2011 12:21] Job: 012693 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/012693/012693_o001_mick_HC 1061 corrected.xml

Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 9

24 May 2011 Huw Jones

S4C service that is there for them all the time. People It is important that S4C says clearly what its policy who don’t have the Welsh language as a core part of is. That policy has to include an open door for genuine their everyday life are looking for something different production companies of a smaller size that have from the language. They want to be excited by content something special to offer, as well as to larger in the language and want reasons to turn to the companies that are better able to compete for large language, and that maybe means a different kind of tenders, for example. I am not willing to say that in programming. The need for talked-about four years’ time the size of the industry will be this programmes—for highlights—is real and very rather than that; it will still be a diverse industry. I important. Maybe that is a focus that S4C will need note that this week the Chief Executive of Channel 4 to return to in order to try and achieve those dual said that it wants to go back and re-energise smaller objectives. companies, so that it returns to where it was in the early years. I am not saying that we should do that, Q49 Mr Whittingdale: They may not be entirely but there has to be an open door for smaller companies fluent and other members of their household may not as well as larger ones. speak Welsh, but we are not expecting them to watch nothing but S4C. We are expecting them to watch 15 Q53 Chair: Mr Jones, I am sorry. May I ask you to minutes. It does not seem too much to ask that you finish this answer quite quickly? There are two very should aim to improve quite dramatically on one in quick supplementary questions coming in afterwards, four. and then we have to move on. Huw Jones: I would not disagree. Perhaps I am being Huw Jones: Okay. I cannot envisage cutting S4C’s cautious in acknowledging the scale of the challenge programme budget without at the same time having because, at the same time, the viewing opportunities, some savings internally, and I think that that exercise the choices and the multi-platform opportunities are is already under way. increasing, not reducing. Q54 Geraint Davies: John Whittingdale mentioned a Q50 Mr Watson: Just a small question. I am sorry figure of 600,000 Welsh speakers and suggested that that I do not have the benefit of knowing Welsh pop you are hitting about a quarter of them. I wonder music like everyone else. [Laughter.] Can you give whether your strategy should be to maximise the share me the name of that song that was banned by the of people who speak Welsh, or whether you should Beeb? use Welsh speakers as a way to get a broader Huw Jones: Guto has the full collection. audience, because those 600,000 probably live with 1 million people who may not be fluent in Welsh. Is your strategy a narrowly defined one, or do you think Q51 Mr Watson: Is it the sort of song that you would there is a case for anchor products in the schedule, so play on S4C? that a mixed family can all enjoy one of your Huw Jones: As a historical titbit, yes. programmes without having to have a surge of Chair: Okay. I would have thought, as I said before, Welsh—that, even though it is in Welsh, it is done in as a follow-up to “Pen Talar” showing the role of the such a way that that accessibility broadens your Conservative party in creating S4C. horizons? Susan Elan Jones: If Mr Jones has to perform that Huw Jones: I do believe that. The question is always song, could I respectfully suggest that he also how much of each do you do. For me, it has to be a ^ performs “Dwr”? That is much better. bit of both, although when you are conducting a root and branch review you will want to revisit those Q52 Alun Cairns: There will be a lot of staff at S4C questions. To date, clearly some types of watching this session and worrying about their future programming—whether sport, music or high-quality and where the industry is going to go. While you were drama with subtitles—offer an opportunity for Chief Executive, staff numbers grew, but we are in a viewers who do not speak Welsh to enjoy. When those difficult period now, where budget realities probably programmes are found, in our experience they are mean that that needs to be different. How do you greatly appreciated as being different, distinctive and propose to tackle that? enriching people’s lives. Can you also give me a summary of where you see the industry being at the end of your chairmanship in Q55 Guto Bebb: On the question of the independent terms of the numbers of companies and the sorts of television sector, which has obviously gone through a contracts and commissions that S4C will seek to very difficult period in view of the uncertainty achieve in your time? Will it work with lots of small surrounding the channel, it is fair to say that the different companies, where money might arguably be ownership of Welsh speakers towards the channel in wasted on development funding, or will there be the north-west Wales, which is one of the strongholds of sort of strategies that we have seen in recent years? the language, has been affected by the quite obvious Huw Jones: To take the second part first, as I have decline of the television sector in that part of the said a balance needs to be struck between securing world, not least the loss of the facilities company that efficiencies and economies of scale and ensuring that you used to chair. Do you think that, in terms of priority is always there for creativity and originality. claiming that there is an economic role for the channel We know that there have been frustrations on the part in Wales, S4C has a duty to look at spreading the of smaller companies that felt, rightly or wrongly, that money throughout all parts of Wales and not just the avenues to commissions were closed to them. being stuck to the Cardiff bubble, as it were? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [23-06-2011 12:21] Job: 012693 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/012693/012693_o001_mick_HC 1061 corrected.xml

Ev 10 Welsh Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

24 May 2011 Huw Jones

Huw Jones: The answer to that is that the S4C service favour of that as Chief Executive, and I think S4C has needs to reflect the whole of Wales. Therefore, that to prioritise its programme priorities and make sure should give an advantage, if you like, to ensure that that everybody is able to compete for them. companies from all parts of Wales have a logical role Chair: Mr Jones, thank you very much indeed. Diolch to play in providing programmes for the channel. It is yn fawr. That brings this part of this joint session to a dangerous route for S4C to go down to suggest that a close. there should be quotas for different areas. I was not in

Printed in the by The Stationery Office Limited 06/2011 012693 19585

Distributed by TSO (The Stationery Office) and available from:

Online www.tsoshop.co.uk

Mail, Telephone, Fax & E-mail TSO PO Box 29, Norwich NR3 1GN General enquiries 0870 600 5522 Order through the Parliamentary Hotline Lo-call 0845 7 023474 Fax orders: 0870 600 5533 Email: [email protected] Textphone: 0870 240 3701

The Parliamentary Bookshop 12 Bridge Street, Parliament Square London SW1A 2JX Telephone orders: 020 7219 3890 General enquiries: 020 7219 3890 Fax orders: 020 7219 3866 Email: [email protected] Internet: http://www.bookshop.parliament.uk

TSO@Blackwell and other Accredited Agents

Customers can also order publications from: TSO Ireland 16 Arthur Street, Belfast BT1 4GD Tel 028 9023 8451 Fax 028 9023 5401

© Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence,c PEFC/16-33-622 available online at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/c parliamentary-licence-information.htm