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INTERVIEW Rick RUBIN “I always thought I would go on to be a lawyer.” Except he didn’t – instead he became guru to the , and more. His formula: meditation and not knowing how anything in a studio works. WORDS paul rees portraitS robert gallagher

ick Rubin lives a mile off the Pacific Coast Highway Run-DMC set the template for the spare, sparse in the affluent Californian seaside community of sound the genre was built on (LL Cool J’s debut LP Malibu. Set on a verdant bluff above the Pacific Radio carried the credit “Reduced by Rick Rubin”). Ocean and hidden from the road by a line of trees He has preached the same basics – great songs and an entry gate, his home is a chocolate box need little enhancing – ever since to artists ranging version of an English manor house with its wattle from to . He sees himself , wooden beams and stained glass windows. less as a producer and more as an editor/coach – A blue Mini and black SUV are parked in the he doesn’t spend months in the studio with his crescent-shaped drive. On a small hill to the side charges, but leaves them in the hands of an is a perfectly maintained tennis court: it came with engineer and issues notes on the work in progress. the house and Rubin doesn’t play. This Zen-like approach habitually leads to career- His dog, a hairy Hungarian Puli called Cielo, and best work from the artists he oversees and to Dave, one of two, entirely bald men who act as his records that sound as if they were made by real personal assistants, are on hand to greet Q. We walk flesh-and-blood human beings. In the latter sense through the kitchen – spotless, furnished in wood he is both a throwback to another era and one of and chrome, a phalanx of vitamin pills on one shelf music’s last great iconoclasts. It also ensures there – and out into the garden. Two cushioned deck- is never a shortage of people willing to stump up chairs look out over the lawn to the ocean beyond. his reported six-figure fee. Pelicans circle above, rabbits skitter about the grass. In 2007, Time magazine named him among It is 25 years since film their 100 Most Influential People In The World, studies student Frederick Jay Rubin officially the same year he was appointed co-chairman of founded Def Jam Records as a home for the city’s in the US. In this role he is a emerging hip hop artists. He was unique from the figurehead for a label that still prides itself on being Rick Rubin at home off – he had no experience in a recording studio and a musical institution, one that is home to such in Malibu, July didn’t even know how a mixing desk worked, yet his heritage artists as AC/DC, Bob Dylan, Bruce 2009: ‘Now, where did I put my chin...’ early productions for LL Cool J, Beastie Boys and Springsteen and Barbra Streisand, as well as 050 april 2009 qthemusic.com Rsubscribe at www.greatmagazines.co.uk october 2009 095 the interview Rick RUBIN contemporary heavyweights such as Beyoncé. It’s a measure of Rubin’s power that no one at the label suggested he stop producing artists for other labels. He joins us damp from a shower and smelling of exotic oils. He is barefoot and sporting a billowing white T-shirt and jeans. His hair is long and straggly, his beard a bush flecked with red and still more with grey. His features are softer than they can seem in photographs and his voice an unexpectedly gentle, buttery burr. The canvas hat atop his head completes the impression that he has just wandered Clockwise from in from Middle Earth. opposite page: Born on 10 March 1963 into a Jewish family packing heat in 1985; with his punk in the New York suburb of Beach to a shoe band Hose; hanging wholesaler father and a housewife mother, he was with the Beastie an only child. His first passion was for magic; as Boys; a Def Jam a child he would take the train into to summit with the visit the Bellmore Cafeteria where the International Beasties, Run-DMC Brotherhood Of Magicians met monthly. It wasn’t and Slayer; with Def Jam partner Russell until he was a teenager at Long Beach High School Simmons (right) that music took over, initially when a teacher gave and Run-DMC. him guitar lessons. By the time he formed his first band, The Pricks, he had grown a beard and become, as he puts it, “the only punk in school”.

What sparked your interest in magic? A relative gave me a magic set when I was seven or eight. I started practising every day. I was interested in all other-worldly things and it felt like being a part of this world of mystery.

How did growing up an only child shape you? distributed. We built up a network of indie morning. The worst was our inexperience in dealing things that are different and unusual. It’s hard to It definitely has… I remember when I first went to distributors around the country. We’d ship orders with it and watching it ruin relationships and step outside of yourself and know why… college having tremendous issues with boundaries from the front desk at the dorm. Artists would undermine good creative decision-making. I was 23 – I didn’t know there were any. My parents were come to 5 University Place thinking it was a record when the Beasties went to Number 1. Our lawyer Apparently you owned a wrestling circuit at very liberal. I don’t think I really knew who I was company and would realise it was a college dorm said, “You have the Number 1 record, how does it one point? until I moved out of their house. when they got there. feel?” I said, “I’ve never been so miserable.” The I did. It was in South Carolina. I met the people thing I’d been waiting for my whole life that was involved and put up a bunch of money to allow Your father has said that you slept in their bed “In school I wore sunglasses 24 LL Cool J’s Radio was the first Def Jam album going to fill whatever hole there was inside me had them to do what they do. until you were 12. hours a day and a motorcycle in 1985. You had no experience or training in happened… and I didn’t feel any better. I don’t know if it was 12 but I was definitely old. We the studio. What on earth made you believe As someone who doesn’t drink or take had a close relationship. It wasn’t like I was the kid – jacket. I was an oddity.” you could produce it? ere are some facts about drugs, you must have been an observer for I was accepted as one of them. I was mechanically Because there were no expectations. Everything Rick Rubin. He dislikes much of your career… inclined, so if anything needed fixing in the house people in the room and they got the plug pulled asshole. Through spending time with the Beasties was done through trial and error. As long as it flying, complaining that Many times. I’ve never seen a case where drugs I’d be the one to do it. And personality wise, I’ve after a song and a half. I grew to see that they had this great sense of sounded good it didn’t matter how technically “the radioactivity up there” have made anyone better at their art. That said, always been kind of grown up. humour. It wasn’t that they were assholes, and even wrong it might be. I always thought I was going to affects his ears. He’s never I really like psychedelic and drug-inspired What attracted you to hip hop? if it was they were funny with it. go on to law school. Anyone at the time who taken drugs and has been music, but at least from my perspective I don’t When did music enter into your world? The same thing as punk – it was edgy, compelling. thought there was a career path out of hip hop drunk just once in his life. know that taking drugs is the way that you My Dad liked Latin jazz – Tito Puente – and we’d Outside of a small group of people no one was In 1984, at the age of 21, you formed Def Jam would’ve been insane. I met the head of another In the 10 hours we spend together he doesn’t eat – get there. always listen to the radio. From an early age The interested. I got to go to the clubs where it all Records with your friend . record company in LA who said, How do you Hinstead on three occasions his assistants bring him Beatles came my way and I was obsessed by them. started, like Disco Fever in . – How did you meet? explain your success? I mean we know it’s not a protein shake and a bowl of vitamin pills. At the You were born into a Jewish family but have a he was a DJ on a college radio station. Somebody We met at a party for Graffiti Rock, a hip hop TV music… But that was how people perceived it – age of 14 he suffered spasms in his neck that his long-standing interest in spiritualism. Did you fit in at school? played me a tape of his show and he had a version of show. I liked him immediately – I thought he was not only is it not good, it’s not even music. family doctor put down to stress and for which he I’m a believer in everything. The more far-fetched it Not. At. All. I wore sunglasses 24 hours a day and the song Number One as his intro. funny. Russell was a promoter. The hip hop world prescribed transcendental meditation. Rubin has is, the more I start from a position of believing. It’s a motorcycle jacket, and nobody else did. I was was small, but he was a big fish in it – he was in the In 1986 you produced both Licensed To been a devotee of the practice ever since and like things have to be proved wrong to me. The definitely an oddity. Again, you were an oddity: a middle-class loop on everything that happened. Ill and with Run-DMC and meditates twice daily. He lives alone and has no interest in magic… that led me to it. Through magic white boy on the hip hop scene… . Their cultural impact was huge… children, although says he is “open to all options”. I learnt about hypnosis, the occult… and they all At New York University you formed a band An incredible oddity. Nobody white was involved How does someone with no experience go None of it made sense. It didn’t seem like there was Ask when he is happiest and he says: “That is the seemed interesting – the world we can’t see. called Hose and played with US in it at that time. But I’d talk to people and they about running a record label from his college any audience out there… I never even thought Walk question of the day.” stalwarts the and Hüsker Dü… saw that I knew as much about it as anyone. They dormitory room? This Way would be a single. Not that I didn’t like it You believe in a God? The fact that I was in a band didn’t make any stopped seeing me as white – I was just a fan. There was a tiny import record store on MacDougal but I didn’t think in those terms. The Beasties’ once said: “Rick takes Absolutely. difference; the fact that I was able to see these Street called 99 Records and I’d hang out there and a perverse pleasure in being around people bands play – incredible. The real blessing of the What did you make of the Beastie Boys when listen to music. Ed Bahlman, who owned 99, started What were the best and worst aspects of that and places that are as screwed up as possible. And you pray? time I was born was I got to see amazing things: you first met them? a label and he walked me through the process: what instant success? He was into porn, wrestling and music.” I do. I pray to have each step guided to be for the

50 Ramones shows, The Birthday Party with seven I met Mike [D] first. I thought he was an arrogant studios to use, how to get singles pressed and retna/corbis, lfi, retna, josh cheuse www.janettebeckman.com/jb.rocks, The best was never having to wake up in the I probably was at the time. I like being around highest good.

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Does your interest in spirituality and meditation play any role in your job? the right thing. Most popular artists, everyone tells Meditation teaches you to look deeply into things. them everything is great. So it’s valuable if they have You don’t just see what’s on the surface and react someone who’ll say, “This is not good.” Because MOST DEF that way. So much of my job is to be critical and when that same person says it’s great, that may be Rubin’s buried treasures. people don’t want to be criticised. It’s a very the only opinion they can believe. Also, , precarious position to be in, to have to tell someone my goal is to tell them in the kindest way possible. SLAYER that something they care about isn’t good enough. I think the fact that I’m coming at it from this pure How would you define your record DEF JAM, 1986 place… it’s not a commercial goal, it’s in the service company role? Rubin brought his of the artist. I feel like music, in many respects, is Helping find and sign talent. Preaching that the stripped down hip spiritual. It’s created from nothing and then the music comes first – that the quality of what we do hop production to act of creation happens and there’s this deep, matters more than anything in the process. The the LA band’s speed moving thing that wasn’t there before. It’s like nature of a corporation is an unusual place for metal. Originally intended to run to 30-plus another puzzle piece in what we don’t understand creativity to thrive. But if you’re always aiming at minutes but recorded at such ferocious about the world. commercial success you miss some of the good pace it came in at 29, and still terrifying – ones. Ninety per cent of my success has been with see the controversial Angel Of Death. You parted company with Simmons and things I didn’t know would be successful. Def Jam in 1988 and moved to LA to start a masters of new label, Def American [later American he sun is slipping behind the reality Recordings]. Why? horizon and Rubin wants to Masters Of I love Russell… I don’t know, it just kind of share some of his current work, Reality happened. I just kind of came to do some work so we retire to the lounge. DEF AMERICAN, 1988 and never went back. With Def American, again, An airy room that smells of Fronted by regular I signed things that I liked and tried to make my incense, its stained glass doors Of The Stone favourite records, period. It’s always the stuff that are open wide to the sea. Age producer Chris Goss, Masters Of people are not looking for that surprises you… it’s The centrepiece is a red brick fireplace flanked by Reality were the archetypal Def American like when I signed [in 1997]. twoT female figurines carved out of wood. A vast act: psychedelic, retro (think Cream meets I loved them, they were my favourite band, but plasma screen TV is hung above it. On either side Led Zeppelin) and entirely cult-ish. I didn’t think anyone was going to like them apart stand two three foot-high speakers mounted in from a small, like-minded group of people like wooden casings. The hi-fi between them rests upon trouble me who were crazy. No one was waiting for an a pair of grey breeze blocks. As each track plays Manic Armenian heavy metal band. It had to be so good Rubin sits, eyes closed, rocking back and forth, Frustration that it transcended all of that. either hand conducting the music. def american, 1991 Clockwise from We hear an album he’s just finished with North Rubin coaxed these Johnny Cash was one of your pivotal above: the madcap Carolina folk-bluegrass siblings , workmanlike doom laughs; out for a American Recordings signings. You met bike ride with Red rough mixes of tracks by Ukrainian gypsy-punks metallers to become him backstage at a show in Santa Ana, Hot Chili Peppers’s and Broken Bells, a new project the hard rock Beatles in a transformational in 1993. What were your first ; fronted by James Mercer of The Shins that he’s bid for greatness. No one bought the album, impressions of him? recording Johnny signed to Columbia. Then we listen to three and they never again scaled such heights, Soulful, deep, serious. Very charismatic. Cash’s Unchained; of the last recordings Johnny Cash made, but this a lost masterpiece, all the same. backing Jay-Z on 99 which Rubin and a band that includes Mike Problems in 2004. You told him to come and sit in your living Campbell and Benmont Tench from Tom THE RED room “with a guitar and two microphones Petty’s Heartbreakers have fleshed out for a DEVILS and just sing to your heart’s content”. What ’s Kirk Hammett said: “The great December release. One is a so-so country choogler, King King do you recall of those sessions? “I couldn’t listen to Johnny thing about Rick is that he’s never around”… the others are devastating meditations on death. DEF AMERICAN, 1992 Sitting and talking and playing music… that was I don’t hold hands and I’m not a babysitter – I tell “He always meant to leave a stockpile behind,” Rubin saw this LA when we got to build up a friendship. My fondest Cash’s last recordings. it was bands that from the beginning. I will be there as Rubin says quietly. blues band playing at memories are just of hanging out and hearing his much as I need to be for a record to be as good as it He is also working with Crosby, Stills And Nash a local club called the stories. He didn’t speak much, but if you drew him heartbreaking when I did.” can possibly be, and not a minute more. The more and with . In September he will oversee King King, signed them and recorded them out he seemed to know everything. He was shy and time you spend listening to something as it’s being Brit soulstress ’s second album and further live at the venue for this, their only album. quiet, but a wise, wise man. You also took communion with him over nce completed, Rubin worked on, the less perspective you have on how down the line expects to record again with Neil was a fan – indeed he recorded the phone… doesn’t listen to records he it’ll sound to someone who hasn’t [worked on it]. Diamond, Metallica and with . Ask him a fine, still-unreleased album with them. You worked together right up to his death, I did and I carried on the ritual every day for a year works on. The exception, is It’s like having a magnificent painting and just whom he would most like to produce and without didn’t you? after he passed. I could still hear his voice. Towards ’s Wildflowers, examining a tiny part of it with a magnifying glass. hesitation he says Paul McCartney. tom petty Every day. When June [Cash’s wife, June Carter Cash] the end the connection faded, whereas for the first which he uses to test out We spend a further seven hours talking and She’s The One died it tore him up. He said to me, “You have to months it felt no different to when we were on the any new music system he is Some artists want their hands held. Is that listening to music old and new. He enthuses about, warners, 1996 keep me working because I will die if I don’t have phone doing it. thinking of buying. Little why you didn’t end up producing ’s last and canvasses opinion on it all – be it a recent Two years after something to do.” He was in a wheelchair by then about his methods is conventional. He is likely to album after starting work with them? appearance by rapper Mos Def on Letterman or one overseeing Petty’s and we set him up at his home in Virginia. I spoke As the go-to guy for reviving moribund artists’ Obe juggling up to five different projects at a time. You’d have to ask them. I don’t know what of Canadian prog rock veterans Rush’s more arcane Wildflowers, Rubin to him most days on the phone… there were good careers, what do you learn from working While he runs a major label, one of his contractual their perspective was. I thought we had fun. tracks. It’s pushing midnight by the time he was back for this days and bad, days when he couldn’t sing at all. with a Johnny Cash or a ? stipulations is that he keeps no office at Columbia’s shepherds me out to a waiting taxi. He offers a soundtrack to a forgotten indie rom-com. I always knew when he’d had a bad one because I learn amazing things from every artist I work with, LA HQ. He communicates with the outside world You write critical notes. You must get single bear-like embrace and says, “Cool hang.” A collection of out-takes and new tracks, it he wouldn’t call. I couldn’t listen to those old and new. Everyone has incredible skill sets that entirely via his BlackBerry – there are no phones in bad reactions? And then he is gone, back to his own world. promised little but ended up home to some recordings for two years after he died and it was make them good at what they do and it tends to be the house. To all intents and purposes, he seems to Absolutely, all the time. But I’m in their service. >>>For more from Q’s audience with Rick Rubin of Petty’s best pop tunes for a decade.

heartbreaking when we did. different from artist to artist. live in his own hermetically sealed universe. retna/corbis rex, getty, Doesn’t mean they react well, but I know I’m doing go to www.Qthemusic.com.

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