Vol. 729 Wednesday No. 182 13 July 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions EU: Common Fisheries Policy Energy: Fuel Poverty Devolution: England Immigration Advisory Service Phone Hacking Statement Mull of Kintyre Review Statement European Union Bill Commons Amendments and Reasons Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill Report (4th Day)

Grand Committee Education Bill Committee (6th Day)

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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Lord Henley: My Lords, this is becoming rather House of Lords easy, because I think I can agree with the noble Lord as well in terms of the direction that we are travelling Wednesday, 13 July 2011. in. I think that we ought to continue to travel in that direction. We will continue to fight for a ban on 3pm discards and deal with that very serious problem. We will also continue to negotiate with other colleagues in Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chester. Europe on the other matters that my noble friend and the noble Lord mentioned.

EU: Common Fisheries Policy Lord Eden of Winton: Can my noble friend say, on Question the subject of discards in particular, whether the fisheries of any other countries within the European Union 3.06 pm take a different line from that which our own fisheries have taken? Asked by Baroness Parminter To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Lord Henley: My Lords, discards are a particular they are taking to achieve reform of the Common problem, not so much in Mediterranean waters but Fisheries Policy. more in North Sea and Atlantic waters. That is why I stressed in my earlier responses the need for regionalisation on these matters. As my noble friend and as others The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, have put it, discards are something that we all find Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs abhorrent. The whole idea that such things should still (Lord Henley): My Lords, I welcome this Question be happening is wrong, and we will fight to end from my noble friend; it is particularly timely given discards. We are already doing a considerable amount that the Commission published its proposals for the to reduce the amount of discards within the UK fleet. reform of the common fisheries policy earlier today. My honourable friend the UK fisheries Minister continues Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: Is the Minister aware to encourage his European counterparts to support that the European Commission is now trying to take radical reform, and will be pressing our case for reform back the management of the common fisheries policy, as negotiations develop, with further talks at the which was to have been moved to the European Agriculture and Fisheries Council next Tuesday. Parliament?

Baroness Parminter: The common fisheries policy Lord Henley: My Lords, I think the noble Lady has has one of the most dismal reputations of any European got that slightly wrong. As I understand it, following Union policy and is responsible for the fact that yields this report from the Commission, this will be a matter in our fisheries have diminished. Does the Minister for the Council of Ministers and for the European agree that its reform must include the total elimination Parliament. It will be a matter for co-decision, so it of discards, and maximum sustainable yields delivered will take some time. As a result, it is very important by long-term management plans agreed at regional that we build up the appropriate alliances in Europe fisheries level? and within the European Parliament to make sure that we can negotiate the best deal possible for a proper, radical reform of the common fisheries policy. Lord Henley: My Lords, I could be very brief in responding to my noble friend by saying that I agree Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, could the with her entirely. Obviously we want to deal with the Minister answer my noble friend’s question, which is problem of discards. We have done a great deal within of crucial consequence and requires an answer? the United Kingdom about that matter. She is also right to talk about the need for regionalisation of the Lord Henley: My Lords, I thought that I had dealt common fisheries policy and about rights-based with that point in answering my noble friend on discards. management. However, we will discuss all that and We think that the wasteful practice of discarding fish continue to negotiate in Europe on these matters—and should be brought to an end. We are doing a great deal I think that we need support from all sides of the already within the United Kingdom to make sure that House, and throughout the entire country and Europe, it is being reduced by various practical measures relating to get a proper reform of the CFP. to net sizes and other matters. We will also continue, in the negotiations for reform of the common fisheries Lord Sewel: My Lords, does the Minister accept policy, to make sure that we do all we can to bring it that any reform of the common fisheries policy will completely and utterly to an end. fail if it just amounts to piling regulation upon regulation? That has been the trouble with the common fisheries Lord Hughes of Woodside: My Lords, it is not quite policy from the very beginning. Surely the important as simple as saying that discards shall be abandoned. thing is that we accept that fishermen themselves have What happens to the undersize fish caught by fishermen to accept responsibility for the health of the industry. at sea? Will they count against national quotas or As the noble Baroness said, the best way to do that is regional quotas? Are we going to rely solely on changing to build on the regional management organisations net sizes? That is very important, but you cannot avoid that already exist. discards if you fish in the sea. 715 EU: Common Fisheries Policy[LORDS] Energy: Fuel Poverty 716

Lord Henley: My Lords, we can never completely Energy: Fuel Poverty and utterly get rid of discards. We want to get rid of Question them as much as is possible. That is why we are seeking a reform of the CFP, and that is what we are negotiating to do. However, there are also practical measures 3.15 pm relating to net sizes, to which the noble Lord referred, Asked by Earl Cathcart and practical measures relating to CCTV on the boats themselves that can help deal with the problem. It is To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress going to take time and a lot of negotiation with other has been made in carrying out their “full-scale member states and with Members of the European review of fuel poverty and its implementation”, Parliament, but we are committed to working towards with special regard to energy companies adopting a that. rising block tariff system of charging.

Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, we very The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, much welcome the Commission’s proposals today to Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord end discards. In doing so, we pay tribute to the campaign, Marland): My Lords, the Secretary of State announced led by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall among others, to on 14 March 2011 that Professor John Hills would gather a petition of over half a million signatories to undertake an independent review of fuel poverty. He press for this change. Clearly it is in the long-term has been asked to consider fuel poverty from first interests of the industry for fish stocks to be rebuilt principles—what causes it, its effects and how best to and taken sustainably. With 75 per cent overfishing, a measure it—with interim findings expected in the autumn cut in the fleet looks inevitable if this new policy is to and a final report in early 2012. The review is independent. work. Can I ask the Minister how this will be managed, Its conclusions will be evidence-based and have not particularly in the coastal towns hardest hit? Will the been and will not be pre-judged or pre-agreed with the decommissioning payments continue, and will there Government. be extra investment in regenerating those communities? Earl Cathcart: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Henley: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble for that encouraging reply. It is good that Professor Lord for paying tribute to the campaign run by Hugh Hills will carry out that work. The problem is that Fearnley-Whittingstall—to which I pay tribute—but I energy companies recover their fixed costs from the would hope that the noble Lord would also pay tribute first few hundred units they charge each customer, and to my honourable friend Mr Richard Benyon, who I the more energy used the lower the charge per unit. think has done equal amounts in terms of his negotiations This seems topsy-turvy to me and does nothing to on these matters. I cannot give the noble Lord specific encourage us to use less energy. It is no wonder that answers to these questions at this stage, as he well there are millions of households in fuel poverty. With knows, because we are still negotiating on these matters. energy prices set to surge, surely the first few hundred We have had the proposals from the Commission only units consumed should be relatively cheap and then today, so I have not read them in detail, nor has my the charging should get progressively more expensive honourable friend Mr Benyon. We will look at those per unit. proposals, he will be negotiating on them next Wednesday, and we will come forward with proposals that will be good for the United Kingdom’s fisheries industry, for Lord Marland: I am very grateful to my noble fish in general and for the sustainability of our fish friend. This is a subject that we have discussed on stocks. many occasions. Indeed, our officials have offered to meet him to discuss it, which I am delighted to say Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, given the they will in September. I can also inform my noble success of the fisheries policies of Iceland and the friend that I have written to Professor Hills and suggested Faroe Islands, and given the fact that 70 per cent of that he might like to talk to noble Lords and hear their the fish in European waters swam in British waters views, bearing in mind that his is an independent before we joined the Community, why do we not take review so I am not allowed to insist upon that. I am back our own fish management to the benefit of our delighted that he has offered a date in August, which is industry? Why do we need a common fisheries policy probably not that convenient to noble Lords, so he has at all? agreed to see your Lordships in September. I hope that the input from my noble friend will then be extremely invaluable. Lord Henley: Oh dear. As I think I have said to the noble Lord before, we are where we are. We have a common fisheries policy and we are committed to Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, can the Minister renegotiating that along with the Commission, which ask Professor Hills and his officials to refer back to a has accepted that that policy does not work, and we series of amendments that I moved on previous energy are going to get that right. With the Commission and Bills as they went through this House, which set out in a vast number of other member states being on side, detail the structure for a rising block tariff scheme? and with this country being totally and utterly committed Those amendments were supported by a number of to doing so, we can get that right. We will start that lobbies outside the House and they met precisely the process next Tuesday and continue it as long as is objectives set by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, in his necessary. question. 717 Energy: Fuel Poverty[13 JULY 2011] Devolution: England 718

Lord Marland: Well, the noble Lord knows that my Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, fuel poverty knowledge of ancient history is less than my knowledge has stepped up a gear with the latest announcement of of science, so I am afraid that I am not familiar with 18 per cent price increases. The Government have to his expertise or his amendments to Bills that were understand that more and more people who have taken through the House. However, the problem with never previously worried about their bills or thought the rising tariff is that the people who use the most of themselves as being in fuel poverty will do so when energy are those in the poorest homes, which require they get their winter bills next year. The disgrace of the most heating. It is not as simple as waving a magic the energy companies is that those who have the least wand. It is therefore imperative that we progress with could end up paying the most, with higher prices for things such as the Green Deal and drive in the efficiency pre-paid meters and those who do not pay directly measures that we are setting out through it before we from their bank also having to pay more. I note that revisit this excellent point, which we are very sympathetic the Minister said he cannot instruct Professor Hills, and open to, later on when that Green Deal is in but he could make suggestions. Can he suggest to Professor action. Hills that he examine this in his review to ensure that this perverse pricing is ended once and for all? Lord Best: My Lords, has the Minister seen the statistic that some 200,000 pensioners would be taken Lord Marland: I am afraid, as I said earlier, that I out of fuel poverty if the kind of tariff system cannot agree with the noble Baroness; I normally do, recommended by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, was but I cannot on this occasion. It is not for me to implemented? On the theme of fuel poverty and energy instruct Professor Hills; Professor Hills is coming up conservation, can the Minister report progress under with an independent review. I am delighted if the the Energy Bill on the measure to prevent private noble Baroness herself wants to make suggestions to landlords re-letting properties that fail every test of him. That is the point of the consultation that he is energy performance after 2016? offering in September, and I am sure that he will greatly benefit from her views. Lord Marland: The noble Lord is obviously very As for energy prices, these are very regrettable, and knowledgeable about the private rented sector, and he this is the price that we are currently paying for no knows as well as I do that we are very committed to investment in the infrastructure of the energy and trying to use every possible commercial measure to electricity in this country.We have to invest £110 billion— ensure that the private rented sector takes its homes Noble Lords: No. out of the F and G categories. We are going to review that in 2016 and we are still open to considering it, but Lord Marland: Noble Lords can say no, but come it is very much an imperative, a fundamental step, in on, they know as well as I do. Some £110 billion has to getting these people out of fuel poverty—which be invested in the infrastructure. We have failed the incidentally is now reaching an horrendous figure. I consumer in creating energy security by being reliant am looking at my notes, which I do not often do; in on fossil fuels. 2004, 1.2 million people in the UK were in fuel poverty, and 4.5 million are now in fuel poverty. This is a serious task that the Government have to set about Devolution: England solving. All of us in this room want to see it solved and Question satisfied, and I am very grateful for the support that I get from all sides of the House to come up with a solution. 3.23 pm Asked by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I am very pleased to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals hear the Minister’s reply, but it will be some time they have for devolution to England. before the report on fuel poverty is published. In the mean time, are the Government considering making social tariffs for energy compulsory as a way of reducing Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, the Government costs for those in fuel poverty? If they are not, what have no current proposals for devolution to England. else are they thinking about in the short term to try to deal with this severe crisis? The Minister has just given Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, surely the us the very bad figures. Minister will agree that now that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have control over all their own domestic Lord Marland: I re-emphasise that we are going to matters through devolved parliaments, this leaves a have an interim report in the summer and a final democratic deficit in England. Will the Government report in the early part of next year. That is very now consider bringing forward the only proposal that quick. It would be wrong for us to start putting up will provide a stable and equitable solution to this tariffs or making incentives while we are waiting for problem, namely a UK federal system and a devolved, the eminent professor to come up with his conclusions, elected Parliament for England? having consulted across the piece. Forgive me if I do not agree to the noble Baroness’s suggestion; it is Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I am sure we obviously a good one, but we need to wait for the can have an interesting debate on this question, because professor to deliver. a devolved English Parliament within a federalised 719 Devolution: England[LORDS] Immigration: Advisory Service 720

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I have just been exhorted UK has been one of the proposals put forward in the by my noble friend Lord Forsyth to ensure that the past to deal with the West Lothian question. I think Government tackle this process robustly. I think he is the noble Lord would admit that this is not without its correct in that regard. The commission will, of course, complexity. The Government have committed to the evaluate the consequences of Lords reform when deciding establishment of a commission to investigate the West in what way the Chambers of the House might operate, Lothian question, and we would not want to pre-empt if its solution is a parliamentary one. any conclusions that that commission may come to. Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, in recognising Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, why is it that British people no longer live in a unitary state, taking so long for the Government to establish this rather than have a top-down solution suggested by the commission? Surely the point being made by the noble Government or anyone else, would it not be better to Lord is that it is ridiculous that we should have Labour seek the views of the English citizens of this country, MPs from Scotland voting on English matters which and take a lesson from the experience in Scotland of are devolved in Scotland, where English MPs have no having a convention to discuss these matters deliberately such say. This was a fundamental tenet of our manifesto over a period so that all good ideas can be ventilated commitment, so when can we expect this commission and the most popular selected? to be appointed? Before the Recess, I hope. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I hope that the commission Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I think my noble friend will inform any such debate which may occur. That is will know that the programme before the Recess is the reason why the Government want the advice of the rather congested. However, I reassure him that the commission, which can take evidence, consider all the commission will be appointed this year. It is important proposals and come to conclusions which are practical to get its terms right. This is a complex issue. All noble and desirable for the governance of this country. Lords who have discussed or investigated it will know about its complexity. It is important to get the right Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, will question and therefore the right answer. the Minister give an assurance to those of us who live in England that the commission will look at the English Lord Barnett: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord regions and not just at a parliament for England as realises that the best way to get fairness into the whole there are great differences in need between the north-west issue is for the Government to accept the amendment of England, the north, the south-west, and London that I have indicated I will move to the Scotland Bill to and the south-east? I would like that assurance, particularly implement what the House of Lords Select Committee as the north-west, along with the north, has suffered unanimously recommended to the House—that the disproportionately under the Barnett formula. Barnett formula should be changed so that it is based on need. Will the Government accept that? Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I am sure that regional aspects will come into the commission’s Lord Taylor of Holbeach: We will certainly have an discussions but the noble Baroness will know that the opportunity to debate the noble Lord’s amendment as last time a vote on a regional assembly was held, the the Scotland Bill will shortly come to this House. In people of north-east England voted against such an the mean time, one of the aspects of devolution which assembly. the commission will investigate is the whole question of funding. I reassure the noble Lord that the Barnett formula will loom large in its considerations. Immigration: Advisory Service Question Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, do the English want a devolved Parliament; and to pay for it? 3.30 pm Asked by Baroness Hamwee Lord Taylor of Holbeach: That is not for me to say; I guess that is for the English people to say. Given that To ask Her Majesty’s Government how immigrants roughly 85 per cent of the membership of the House and asylum seekers will be provided with legal of Commons comes from English constituencies, one advice and representation following the entering of the solutions may be not to change the devolution into administration of the Immigration Advisory settlement in respect of England. Service.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, surely the Baroness Northover: My Lords, it is clearly regrettable outcome of the commission that the noble Lord has that the Immigration Advisory Service’s trustees have said the Government will set up within the year will decided to place the organisation in administration. have an impact on consideration of Lords reform. However, the IAS is one provider in a wider market of Given that, does the noble Lord agree that we had immigration and asylum advice. The Legal Services better wait to see the outcome of the commission’s Commission is identifying alternative provision for work before bringing legislation before your Lordships’ the areas affected, as well as making the necessary House? arrangements for case transfers. 721 Immigration: Advisory Service[13 JULY 2011] Arrangement of Business 722

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, the IAS had almost Lord Bach: My Lords, will the Minister ensure that 25,000 new cases last year, of which 8,500 were asylum every case that is currently with the IAS will be transferred cases. That leaves about 10,000 live cases. What assurances to a competent provider of legal advice and representation? can the Government give: first, to clients, especially I think she has already indicated that she will make those whose cases are at a critical time-limited point sure that that happens. Furthermore, because of the and who need information in their own languages Government’s proposals in the Bill, all immigration about what will happen next; and, secondly, on practical cases, except those of individuals in detention, will be matters, including the number of staff retained by the outside the scope of legal aid, including cases of administrators to deal with such things as the transfer domestic violence. This means that in every case, of files? My noble friend will know that a year after however complicated, no legal advice or legal aid will the closure of Refugee and Migrant Justice many files be available. Does the Minister, who has a proud are still in storage, with the storage company looking liberal reputation, not feel more than a little uncomfortable for payment before cases can proceed. at depriving people of access to justice in this way? Baroness Northover: The IAS was audited and the Legal Services Commission identified potential overclaims Baroness Northover: How very kind of the noble representing millions of pounds. That is what has led Lord. On his first point, three IAS hub centres will be to this train of events. The LSC is working very hard kept open for the moment: in Manchester, Birmingham to transfer cases and is prioritising the most vulnerable and Bradford. They are facilitating the transfer of first, among them cases of unaccompanied children these cases. I am sure that we will have very interesting claiming asylum and cases coming up to tribunal debates coming down the track on legal aid, but this immediately. A large number of people working in this has nothing to do with the proposed changes. area are prepared to take on this work, which is very encouraging for making a smooth transfer and making Lord Avebury: My Lords, will my noble friend say sure that clients are well looked after in this situation. how many IAS staff will be retained in the three Lord Dubs: Is there not a danger that with the offices that she has just mentioned to deal with the cutback in money for legal aid, it is not possible for transfer of files, and whether she considers that they other organisations to fill the gap left by the Immigration will be able to do it adequately, bearing in mind that, Advisory Service? Is not the real problem that asylum as she has already said, there are still files that have not seekers will be caught in limbo, possibly becoming been transferred after the demise of the RMJ, even destitute because there is no one to represent them though there has been more than a year to do this? properly? Does she agree that the number of matter starts given to the IAS is so large that they could not be taken up Baroness Northover: This is a problem in the IAS, by other practitioners, especially in regions such as which projected that it would have a return profit of East Anglia and Yorkshire, where the IAS has either £500,000 even with the proposed legal aid reforms. 100 per cent or most of the legal aid and asylum cases? This is not an issue about legal aid reforms but a problem in the IAS: a large debt that it cannot address and which the Legal Services Commission has decided Baroness Northover: I disagree with what my noble should not be written off. Many other organisations friend says about adequate provision perhaps not being want to take on this work. Carolyn Downs, the chief in place. I am very encouraged by what the chief executive of the Legal Services Commission, said in executive of the Legal Services Commission said. The the other place yesterday: transfer of files is better organised than it was in the previous case that he referred to, and we are confident “we have a huge number of people contacting us who are prepared to take on that work”.—[Official Report, Commons, Legal Aid, that this will be taken forward very effectively. Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee, 12/7/11; col. 72.] Baroness Sherlock: I declare an interest as former Arrangement of Business chief executive of the Refugee Council. Can the Minister Announcement assure the House that the quality of specialist immigration law that will be available in the future will as good as in 3.37 pm the past? Is she aware of the differential success rates of people getting very good legal advice? Does she Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, it may be accept that removing immigration law from the scope for the convenience of the House to know that, after and cutting the budget of legal aid for asylum may discussions in the usual channels, the Government make it harder? I am sure that most noble Lords have made time available this Friday 15 July for a would not dream of buying a house without decent debate on the Motion that this House takes note of legal advice, and certainly no one should be forced to recent allegations about the conduct of the news media defend their life without it. and police, and the position of News Corporation within United Kingdom media provision. The Motion Baroness Northover: The Legal Services Commission will be moved by my noble friend Lord Fowler after has a certain threshold for demanding the kind of proceedings on the Private Members’ Bills already quality that the noble Baroness is talking about. That scheduled for Friday have been completed. I understand continues to be the case, and we are encouraged that a that those matters are not expected to be lengthy. The large number of providers are willing to take on this speakers list is now open in the government Whips’ work, which helps drive up the quality. Office. 723 Phone Hacking[LORDS] Phone Hacking 724

Phone Hacking a full investigation into wrongdoing in the press and Statement the police, including the failure of the first police investigation. Secondly, we need a review of regulation of the press. We would like to get on with both these 3.37 pm elements as quickly as possible, while being mindful of The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord the ongoing criminal investigations. So, after listening Strathclyde): My Lords, it may now be convenient for carefully, we have decided that the best way to proceed me to repeat a Statement that was made earlier today is with one inquiry in two parts. by the Prime Minister. Well informed Peers will be I can tell the House that the inquiry will be led by aware that some of the issues contained in the Statement one of the most senior judges in the country, Lord have changed. As a result, and with the agreement of Justice Leveson. He will report to both the Home the Opposition, I have made some amendments that I Secretary and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media shall make plain during the course of the Statement, and Sport. The inquiry will be established under the which is as follows. Inquiries Act 2005, which means it will have the power “In recent days, the whole country has been shocked to summon witnesses, including newspaper reporters, by the revelations about the phone hacking scandal. management, proprietors, policemen and politicians What this country and this House have to confront is of all parties, to give evidence under oath and in an episode that is disgraceful: accusations of widespread public. law-breaking by parts of our press; alleged corruption by some police officers; and, as we have discussed, the Starting as soon as possible, Lord Justice Leveson, failure of our political system over many years to assisted by a panel of senior independent figures with tackle a problem that has been getting worse. We must relevant expertise in media, broadcasting, regulation keep front and centre the real victims: relatives of and government, will inquire into: the culture, practices those who died at the hands of terrorism, war heroes and ethics of the press; its relationship with the police; and murder victims—people who have already suffered the failure of the current system of regulation; the in a way that we can barely imagine who are being contacts made, and discussions had, between national made to suffer all over again. newspapers and politicians; why previous warnings about press misconduct were not heeded; and the issue We all want the same thing: press, police and politicians of cross-media ownership. He will make recommendations who serve the public. Last night, the Deputy Prime for a new, more effective way of regulating the press—one Minister and I met the Leader of the Opposition. I that supports its freedom, plurality and independence also met the chairs of the Culture, Media and Sport, from government, but which also demands the highest Home Affairs and Justice Select Committees to discuss ethical and professional standards. He will also make the best way forward. Following these consultations, I recommendations about the future conduct of relations will set out today how we intend to proceed: first, on between politicians and the press. This part of the the public inquiry; secondly, on the issues surrounding inquiry we hope will report within 12 months. News International’s proposed takeover of BSkyB; and, thirdly, on ethics in the police service and on its The second part of the inquiry will examine the relationship with the press. extent of unlawful or improper conduct at the News of the World and other newspapers, and the way in which Before I do that, I will update the House on the management failures may have allowed this to happen. current criminal investigation into phone hacking. I This part of the inquiry will also look into the original met Sir Paul Stephenson last night. He assured me police investigation and the issue of corrupt payments that the investigation is fully resourced, one of the to police officers, and will consider the implications largest currently under way in the country, and being for the relationships between newspapers and the police. carried out by a completely different team from the Lord Justice Leveson has agreed our draft terms of one that carried out the original investigation. It is reference. I am placing them today in the Library and being led by Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue we will send them to the devolved Administrations. Akers, who I know impressed the Select Committee No one should be in any doubt that we will get to the yesterday. Her team is looking through 11,000 pages bottom of the truth and learn the lessons for the containing 3,870 names, including around 4,000 mobile future. and 5,000 landline phone numbers. The team has contacted 170 people so far, and will contact every Next is the issue of News International’s bid to take single person named in those documents. The over BSkyB. By the day we are hearing shocking commissioner’s office informed me this morning that allegations: allegations that royal protection officers the team has so far made eight arrests and undertaken were in the pay of the News of the World and handed numerous interviews. over the contact details of the Royal Family for profit; Let me now turn to the action that the Government and allegations that the former Prime Minister, Gordon are taking. Last week in the House I set out our Brown, had his personal details blagged by another intention to establish an independent public inquiry News International title. As both the alleged nature of into phone hacking and other illegal practices in the the malpractice and the scope of the newspapers involved British press. We have looked carefully at what the widen, serious questions must be asked about News nature of this inquiry should be. We want it to be one Corporation’s proposed takeover of BSkyB”. that is as robust as possible—one that can get to the I would now like to depart from the original Statement truth fastest and get to work the quickest, and one that given in another place as very recent developments commands the full confidence of the public. Clearly, mean that it is no longer accurate. Since the Prime there are two pieces of work to be done. First, we need Minister’s Statement, News Corporation has announced 725 Phone Hacking[13 JULY 2011] Phone Hacking 726 that it no longer intends to bid for the shares in BSkyB all meetings with newspaper and other media proprietors, which it does not already own. This means that the senior editors and executives, regardless of the nature Culture Secretary’s decision to refer the matter to the of the meeting. Permanent Secretaries and special Competition Commission now falls. advisers will also be required to record such meetings, I would now like to revert to the rest of the earlier and this information should be published quarterly. It Statement. is a first for our country and, alongside the other steps we are taking, will help to make the UK Government “And let me also say this. The people involved, one of the most transparent in the world. The Opposition whether they were directly responsible for the wrongdoing, might also want to adopt this practice to ensure a sanctioned it or covered it up, however high or low cross-party approach. they go, must not only be brought to justice; they must also have no future role in the running of a media After this Statement, I will be meeting the family of company in our country. Milly Dowler. None of us can imagine what they have gone through, but I do know that they, like everyone Let me now turn to the issue of ethics in the police, else in this country, want their politicians—all of and in particular their relationship with the press. Of us—to bring this ugly chapter to a close, and ensure course it is important that there is a good relationship that nothing like it can ever happen again. It is in that between the media and the police. The police often use spirit that I commend this Statement to the House”. newspapers to hunt down wanted criminals and to My Lords, that concludes the Statement. appeal for information. However, allegations have been made that some corrupt police officers may have taken 3.50 pm payments from newspapers, and there are wider concerns that the relationship between the police and the press Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, first, I can be too close. When I spoke to Sir Paul Stephenson thank the Leader of the House for repeating the yesterday, he made clear that he is as determined as I Statement made in the other place by the Prime Minister. am that all aspects of the police relationship with the The revelations of the past week have shocked the media should be beyond reproach. whole country. The public now rightly expect those of us in Parliament, especially those in the other place On the allegation concerning improper payments who directly represent them, to provide not just an to police officers, I can assure the House that the echo for that shock but the leadership necessary to Metropolitan Police immediately referred the case to start putting things right. We on these Benches very the Independent Police Complaints Commission. Since much welcome the fact that the usual channels have then, the IPCC’s most senior commissioner has been now reached agreement that, as we have been urging, supervising the Met’s work to identify the officers who this House will on Friday consider these issues in may have taken these payments. As soon as any officers depth in a full-scale debate in your Lordships’ House. are identified, the commission has publicly made clear The fact that the other place is debating a Motion this that it will move to a fully independent investigation afternoon pressing Rupert Murdoch and News drawing on all the available expertise necessary to Corporation to withdraw their bid for BSkyB has reassure the public. My right honourable friend the clearly been a clinching factor in ensuring that News Home Secretary has been assured by the commission Corporation has done precisely that this afternoon. that it has both the powers and the resources it needs We welcome the fact that News Corporation has to see this through. It will go wherever the evidence withdrawn its bid. It is the right thing to do and what leads it and will have full powers to investigate fully the country wanted to see. any police wrongdoing that it might uncover. The The intention was that your Lordships’ House should Home Secretary has also today commissioned a report debate these issues on a Motion in exactly the same from the IPCC on the IPCC’s experience of investigating terms in what would have been a powerful double corruption in the police service and on any lessons message from both Houses of Parliament. My party that can be learnt for the police service. The initial proposed the Motion in the other place and secured findings of this will be delivered to her by the end of support from the other parties so that the House of the summer. Commons is speaking with a single voice this afternoon. I can also tell the House that, in addition to the I pay tribute to the leader of my party, the right work of the judicial inquiry on the wider relationship honourable Member for Doncaster North, for his between the police and the press, Sir Paul Stephenson leadership in this matter and his remarkable personal is looking to invite a senior public figure to advise him achievement in securing the extraordinary changes on the ethics that should underpin that relationship that the country has seen over the past week. for his own force, the Metropolitan Police. In particular, The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, was to have put the this figure will advise him on how to ensure maximum same Motion to your Lordships’ House but, rightly, transparency and public confidence in how the he has now changed the words of his resolution. I pay arrangements are working. tribute as well to the way in which the noble Lord has If we are calling for greater transparency from the pursued these issues so doggedly. In the light of the police, I think it is only right that we provide it in announcement by News Corporation, the usual channels government too. After all, as I have said, one of the have been looking at the wording of the Motion on reasons we got into this situation is because over the the Order Paper and, as I say, it is right that those decades politicians and the press have spent time terms should now be adjusted. We on these Benches courting support, not confronting the problems. So I want to see all parties and both Houses of Parliament will be consulting the Cabinet Secretary on an amendment move forward swiftly, comprehensively and, wherever to the Ministerial Code to require Ministers to record possible, on an agreed basis. 727 Phone Hacking[LORDS] Phone Hacking 728

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] these Benches are glad that the Government have Let me ask about the timing, nature and scope of agreed to make changes to the terms of reference to the inquiry as set out in the Government’s Statement. avoid doing so. Alongside important questions of The scale and seriousness of what we have all heard behaviour in Britain’s newsrooms, the police and the about practices in our newspaper industry, about the relationship between politicians and the press, two way in which that industry was regulated and about additional issues need consideration. On the issue of the failure of the police to investigate developments media regulation, does the Leader of the House agree should make it clear to us all that now is not the time that our instinct should continue to be for self-regulation? to delay. The truth is that for far too long, as the Does he further agree that it needs to be proved that Statement recognises, politicians have been lagging self-regulation can be made to work? On a point of behind the public’s rising sense of anger and indignation detail, does he think it is for the judge to make final about the methods and culture of sections of the decisions about recommendations on media regulation? press. The task in front of us all, as politicians, is to I welcome the decision to make cross-media ownership play our part in starting to put that right. part of the inquiry. Does the Leader agree that abuses We welcome the inquiry detailed in the Statement. of power are more likely to happen when there are Will the Leader of the House confirm that it will be excessive concentrations of power? Will he confirm staffed and up and running before the Recess, and, in that the recommendations can be legislated for in the addition to the fact that the interfering with or the Government’s forthcoming communications Bill? damaging of evidence in any way while a criminal Finally, on BSkyB, we thank the Leader of the investigation is under way is already an offence, will House and through him the Prime Minister for what the Leader also confirm that from the moment the the Prime Minister said today. News Corporation judge is appointed today it will be an offence for does indeed need to concentrate more on cleaning up anyone to destroy documents related to the issues of the mess and less on trying to secure a merger. In the inquiry? dropping its bid for BSkyB, we are glad that Rupert Murdoch and News Corporation are finally showing Turning to how the inquiry will operate, we welcome signs that they are, indeed, getting it. Following News a number of aspects of the announcement today that Corporation’s decision, we are grateful for the statement build clearly on the way forward for which we in this of clarification given by the Leader of the House that party have been calling. It is right that this is a single the decision by the Secretary of State for Culture, inquiry. We have been clear that it must be judge-led if Olympics, Media and Sport to refer the matter to the it is to get to the bottom of what has happened and Competition Commission now falls. when. So we on these Benches strongly welcome the announcement of Lord Justice Leveson as the chair of As well as discussing this Statement today, we look the inquiry. He is extremely well suited to what will forward on these Benches to debating these matters unquestionably be a difficult but very important task. fully later this week. But in all our considerations, we Putting together the different elements of this single all need to keep foremost in our minds the victims of inquiry will be itself a difficult task. Will the Leader this scandal, such as the family of Milly Dowler and explain how the Government envisage the judge and the other members of the public who were the innocent the inquiry panel operating together? victims of phone hacking. It is they who deserve a full and comprehensive inquiry. They need us to get on In opting for a far broader inquiry, it is right that with this inquiry, to make it fully comprehensive, and the Government have now decided to follow the argument to get to the truth. The leader of my party has given that we have been making on the inquiry’s scope and his personal commitment, and the commitment of my the clear views of the Hacked Off campaign and the party, to make sure we will do everything to ensure family of Milly Dowler, whose phone was so despicably that that happens. On these Benches, in this House, we hacked into by the News of the World—defunct now, echo that commitment. We look forward to seeing this but the impact of that is still reverberating so revoltingly. scandal cleaned up, to seeing the press, the police and It is clear that there are a number of important politicians root out wrongdoing where it has happened, areas which the inquiry must cover. They include the and to raise their game. We look forward as well to the first police investigation alongside what happened at victims of these crimes—not the perpetrators of them— the News of the World and other newspapers. Does the securing outcomes which are both satisfactory and just. Leader of the House agree that yesterday’s session of the Home Affairs Select Committee in the other place made clear that the questions about the relationship 3.58 pm between the media and the police run wider than Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I should like to thank simply the first investigation? We must take the steps the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition for necessary to restore the public’s faith in the ability of what she said and to join her where she left off in the police to hold all those who have broken the law to talking about the victims—the Dowler family and the account. Similarly, it can only be right that the inquiry many others—and these truly staggering figures of the has been broadened to the relationship between politicians number of phone numbers, both mobile and landline, and the press. that have now been discovered. Each of the owners of On the specifics, will the noble Lord the Leader of those numbers will be notified by the police. Our the House assure the House that these aspects too of thoughts should be with them—not only public figures the inquiry will be very much judge-led? It is important or so-called celebrities, but very often ordinary people that the terms of reference of the inquiry are not taken going about their business who have been highlighted to narrow the remit of the judge excessively. We on by the press and very often dealt with extremely badly. 729 Phone Hacking[13 JULY 2011] Phone Hacking 730

I am also pleased that this House will have an opportunity remotely been the case. Most importantly, does my to debate these matters. I readily join the noble Baroness noble friend agree that the inquiry gives us an exceptional in paying tribute to all those who made that possible, opportunity to settle how the public can be better in particular my noble friend Lord Fowler—truly a protected from the unacceptable press intrusions and veteran on this subject. I expect it will be the first of illegal acts seen over the past years and that, above all, many opportunities we will have to debate these issues these things should be settled on a bipartisan basis? over the course of the next few years. There is certainly knowledge and expertise on all Benches in the House Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I entirely agree with that we ought to be able to draw upon. my noble friend’s last point. It is important that through I also agree that, across the parties, we need to Parliament and across the parties we should agree on move swiftly. The tone of the noble Baroness reflected the best way forward, but particularly that we should the need for cross-party unity to try to deal with so do so when we have seen what the recommendations many of these different situations. She was right that, of the inquiry are. I also agree with my noble friend’s in addition to the huge failure on the part of newspapers, point about the inquiry. I am sure that it will want to there have been failures on the part of politicians and look at all aspects of media ownership, including the police, and that we all need to play our part in foreign ownership, and come up with recommendations correcting them. on that. The inquiry will be set up at once and be firmly up Lord Richard: My Lords, I wonder whether the and running by the Recess. I can confirm that it would Leader of the House can help me. We do not yet know be a criminal offence to destroy evidence. It would be a the exact terms of reference of this inquiry. Can he criminal offence in any case, because of the police confirm that it will not be confined just to News investigation which is ongoing, to destroy evidence International? A situation in which there is a very that could materially affect that investigation. detailed examination of what News International has The judge will be in overall control; it is his inquiry; done without any examination of what any of the he will be supported by what the noble Baroness called other newspapers may have done would, I think, be an operating panel of experts drawn from the areas rather unsatisfactory. that I mentioned in the Statement. How they work together and develop their working practices will depend Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I can readily agree very much on how the judge decides to operate. We are with that. It will look at the widest range of media very much looking forward to them getting going and matters. to the report. The noble Baroness asked whether the instinct was Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I very much for continued self-regulation. It will be up to the judge welcome the appointment of Lord Justice Leveson to and his inquiry to decide that and to come forward chair the inquiry. There could not, in my view, have with recommendations, having looked at all the effects been a better choice. I am also very glad that there is to of self-regulation and its possible failure. There is be one inquiry instead of two and that it is to be a increasingly a view—I do not wish to second-guess the judicial inquiry under Lord Justice Leveson. I am a inquiry in any sense—that, whether or not self-regulation little concerned about the nature of the inquiry and has failed, we need to defend the relationship between the order of events. The Statement gives the impression a free press and strong regulation. Some independent that the two parts of the inquiry are to be considered, form of regulation should almost certainly be the in a sense, the wrong way around. Surely the urgent outcome. matter for inquiry is the conduct of the News of the I agree also with what the noble Baroness said World—a purely factual inquiry. Would it not be better about the position of News International now. It is for the inquiry to complete that aspect of the task important for it to get its own house in order. This is a before turning to the much more general question of fast-moving situation; no doubt, it will have moved press regulation in the future? further by the time we get to our debate on Friday. That is something we should all look forward to. Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the inquiry, as the noble and learned Lord pointed out, will be a single judge-led inquiry, with the support of a panel, but it 4.03 pm will be divided into two parts. The first part will look Lord Fowler: My Lords, as my noble friend says, the at media ethics and practice. The panel will be drawn position seems to change almost hour by hour. There from experts in the media, in the police, in government, will be, I think, a welcome around the House for the and so on. We hope that the inquiry will report within decision by News Corp to withdraw its bid. However, 12 months. The second part of the inquiry, as the does he agree that this is not remotely the end of the noble and learned Lord pointed out, will look at the story and that the inquiries that have just been announced unlawful activity and improper behaviour that has remain essential, not least because of the position of come to our attention, but it will be a post-criminal companies such as News Corp? Will he confirm that investigation inquiry held once all the court processes the inquiry will be able to consider the law relating to have been completed. The noble and learned Lord will American companies taking full control of British be more aware than I am of the need to avoid interference media companies when, by the law of the United by the judge-led inquiry with the criminal process and States, we are prevented doing the same and taking very possible court processes. full control of American media companies? That seems a very unsatisfactory position which has not always Baroness Buscombe: My Lords— 731 Phone Hacking[LORDS] Phone Hacking 732

Lord Alderdice: My Lords— noble friend’s welcome of the announcement that we have made today. On the other matter, I am sure that Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I think that we need to my noble friend will be invited to give evidence to hear from the Liberal Democrat Benches. the inquiry on how regulation has worked. Her role as chairman of the PCC is extremely important in Lord Alderdice: My Lords, I thank my noble friend considering what has and has not worked in recent for repeating the Statement made by the Prime Minister years. in another place. He will know that we on these Benches are grateful that the Prime Minister has taken the advice of my right honourable friend the Deputy Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords— Prime Minister and appointed a senior and respected judicial figure to lead this inquiry. Lord Justice Leveson Lord Dear: My Lords— is, indeed, a most welcome figure to take on what is a very murky world indeed. Does my noble friend accept Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords— that, in respect of the element of corruption, not just of an individual, or a few individuals, as was suggested, Lord De Mauley: My Lords, we have 10 more but a whole culture of corruption that has developed, minutes. Can the noble Lords decide which of them is any organisation that has presided over such a culture to go first? of corruption is not a fit and proper licensee to be conducting the business of press and broadcasting in Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, the Prime Minister this country and that it is no longer a question of referred in his Statement to consulting with the Cabinet plurality in the press but of morality in the press? Secretary on an amendment to the Ministerial Code Does he further accept that the committee in another for the recording of all meetings “regardless of the place yesterday demonstrated that there are senior nature of the meeting”. Does this include formal and figures in the Metropolitan Police who do not seem informal meetings and official and unofficial meetings, yet to have realised the seriousness of the damage that if they exist? How is he describing them? has been done to public confidence in the Metropolitan Police by their failure to address these shocking activities over a period of time and that much will have to be Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, my right honourable done, and has not yet even started to be done, to repair friend the Prime Minister has invited the Cabinet that public confidence? Secretary to examine this matter. My understanding is that it is to make the process as transparent as possible. Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the issue of the police It would therefore include all meetings—formal, informal, and their role in this and previous investigations is social and any other kind of meetings that the noble rightly a matter for the inquiry. On the question of a Lord can think of. fit and proper person, that was never going to be triggered by the proposed merger because Ofcom has Lord Dear: My Lords, I know that the whole House an ongoing statutory duty to ensure that holders of will agree that the Statement today throws substantial broadcasting licences are and remain fit and proper doubt on the ability of the police service to implement persons. It is a matter for Ofcom, which is taking its real leadership at various ranks within that service. I responsibility in this area most seriously and is already am sure the Leader of the House and other Members in touch with the relevant authorities. will agree that the whole issue of leadership in the police service is absolutely paramount. We have one Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, in declaring an report already in the public domain by Mr Neyroud interest as chairman of the Press Complaints Commission, and we await another from Mr Winsor at the turn of may I place on record the fact that it very much the year. Can the Leader of the House give an assurance welcomes the announcement of the inquiry into the that once those reports are in the public domain, Her regulation of the press and, indeed, the appointment Majesty’s Government will consider the issue of leadership of Lord Justice Leveson to lead that inquiry? Will the in the police separate to the Leveson inquiry, and Leader of the House note that last week the Press make that consideration a matter of some urgency? Complaints Commission, led by its independent members, including another Member of this House, issued a statement making clear its intention to drive reform, Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, it is too early to come particularly in the areas of independence and sanctions? to any definitive view but, of course, as the reports are Will he recognise that the PCC remains committed to made they will be taken seriously. If there is any action the establishment of a much more effective system, to be taken at that time and it is appropriate to do so, one that, as the Statement suggests, supports appropriate then we shall do so. freedoms but demands the highest ethical standards? Finally, does he accept that while the inquiry is ongoing, Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, given that anyone the important work of the PCC, through its dedicated who knows or has encountered Lord Justice Leveson staff, must continue so that it can carry on serving the knows that he will dig deep and report robustly, can members of the public, who are still turning to it for we take it that the helpful enthusiasm of Select Committees help in their thousands, day and night? in another place will now recede a little into the background, so the time taken up in dealing with Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I readily agree with those Select Committees can be used in the inquiries the last part of what my noble friend said: the PCC by Lord Justice Leveson and by the very reputable should continue to do its work. I readily accept my deputy assistant commissioner, Sue Akers? 733 Phone Hacking[13 JULY 2011] Phone Hacking 734

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I readily agree with had the power to deal with the questions that needed what my noble friend has said. to be asked? My belief is that it did not. It has done as much as it could with the very limited powers it has. Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I applaud We should be looking at giving the commission the the consensus that has been arrived at both in this power it needs to do the job, and I hope that the House and in the other place. Does the Leader of the inquiry will look at that. House agree that the importance of the appointment of Lord Justice Leveson is that not only will he be Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I very much agree looking at the subject matter of the current criminal with my noble friend that we need to get to the bottom investigations but he will also have an opportunity to of all that has happened. That is the purpose of the look at other newspapers which may also be behaving inquiry, part of which will look at the current system improperly? The importance of his appointment is of self-regulation under the PCC. In the same way that that if anyone—in News Corp or any other newspaper— not every journalist was hacking, not all aspects of the seeks to destroy, alter or otherwise deal with the PCC have been badly done. Many people have received information, they will be committing a criminal offence. help and support from the PCC. However, the issues Secondly, does the noble Lord also agree that the that we are dealing with are of the highest seriousness. fact that it would appear that the noble Baroness, It is therefore right that we should set up this judicial Lady Buscombe, who heads the commission, was misled inquiry. either by omission or commission is a very serious matter and it very much enhances the seriousness with Lord Soley: My Lords, there have been many inquiries which this House and the other place have now to into the press over the past 20-odd years. It is important treat the issues complained about? to remember that none of them solved the problems. They were around at the time and are still around now, Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I join the noble and even though the press was warned then that it was, learned Baroness in applauding consensus on this rather famously, drinking in the last-chance saloon. matter and many others. If we have come up with the One of the most important things, whether we have right decision and an inquiry that everyone can support statutory or non-statutory regulation, is that the body that must be the right way to go. One of the good that is set up should have very strong investigatory things that has come out this afternoon is how everybody powers. Without them it will end up being largely a has welcomed the appointment of Lord Justice Leveson. conciliation service, not a regulatory body. The terms of reference are widely drawn—they will look at the culture, practice and ethics of all the press; Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, these are all good their relationship with the police; the failure of the points. It shows how wide-ranging the inquiry will current system of regulation; the contacts made between need to be in looking at the facts, and the failures and national newspapers and politicians, and so on. That successes of past regimes. These are all matters that must include newspaper groups other than News the inquiry will wish to investigate fully. International. As far as the second point the noble and learned Baroness Hollins: My Lords, what steps are being Baroness made about the PCC, everyone can see that taken to ensure that when the suspected victims of the current system has failed and broken down. The phone hacking are contacted, their details will be kept inquiry will rightly wish to look at why that happened— confidential to avoid any revictimisation—such as they what the causes were, perhaps over a very long time—and have faced in the past—through an invasion of their what measures are needed to put it right. privacy? Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords— Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, that is an extremely Baroness Wheatcroft: My Lords, I should first good question and a good point. The intention of the declare—or perhaps confess is more appropriate—that police is simply to advise those whose numbers have for nine years I was business editor of the Times,a clearly been hacked into. If I may, I should like to pass News International newspaper. I can assure noble on what the noble Baroness has said. It is an important Lords that at no stage during my time there was phone point that more anxiety and upset are not caused by hacking taking place under my watch; had it been, I the revelation that their numbers were hacked into. would have known and would have felt responsible for it. However, it is important not to lose sight of the fact Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, could the that some very important journalism goes on, not just Leader of the House go a little further than he went in in other papers but in Murdoch papers too—I point his answer to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, a few noble Lords towards the campaign in the Times recently moments ago? Is it within the terms of reference of about adoption and opening up the family courts. We this judicial inquiry to advise on and recommend the should not totally condemn a bunch of newspapers proper limits of the media’s intrusion into the private because of what might have gone on in some of them lives of individuals by whatever means where there is and neither should we think that what went on at the no public interest? Obviously, the position is different News of the World is unique to the News of the World. where there is a public interest. I am delighted to hear that this inquiry is going to range widely but we need to get to the bottom of this Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, my understanding is and I am delighted that we will. Does the Leader of that these will be matters for the inquiry to look at. It the House believe that the Press Complaints Commission is entirely right that it should do so. 735 Mull of Kintyre Review[LORDS] Mull of Kintyre Review 736

Mull of Kintyre Review Lord Philip and his colleagues have concluded that Statement the finding that the pilots were negligent to a gross degree should be set aside and that the Ministry of Defence should consider offering an apology to the families of Flight Lieutenant Tapper and Flight Lieutenant 4.23 pm Cook. I can tell the House today that I have accepted these recommendations. At a specially convened meeting The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of the Defence Council on Monday, it was decided of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My Lords, I wish to that, to quote our decision, repeat a Statement that the Secretary of State made in ‘the Reviewing Officers’ conclusions that Flight Lieutenants Tapper the other place. and Cook were negligent to a gross degree are no longer sustainable “Mr Speaker, I wish to announce the publication and must therefore be set aside. We therefore order that those today of the Mull of Kintyre review, the report of the findings shall be set aside’. independent review of the evidence relating to the I am writing to the widows of the two pilots, to the findings of the board of inquiry into the fatal accident father of Jonathan Tapper and the brother of Richard of a Royal Air Force Chinook helicopter at the Mull Cook to express the Ministry of Defence’s apology for of Kintyre on 2 June 1994. the distress that was caused to them by the findings of It is right that I should begin this Statement by negligence. I wish also to express that apology publicly paying tribute to the 29 people who died in this in this House today. accident, one of the worst in the history of the Royal Lord Philip’s analysis is very clear. To put it as Air Force. As is well known, the passengers were briefly as I can, he identifies the central point as being members of the Northern Ireland security and intelligence that, according to the regulations in force at the time, a community who were travelling to a meeting in Inverness, finding of negligence should have been made against and their deaths were a huge blow to the security of air crew who had been killed in an accident only if this country. They were also a human tragedy for each there was “absolutely no doubt whatsoever” about the of the 29 families who were devastated by the loss of matter. Although the two air chief marshals who their loved ones. acted as the reviewing officers for the board of inquiry I pledged while in opposition that I would set up a and made the findings themselves had no doubts on review because I had worries that an injustice might the matter, Lord Philip is clear that that is not enough. have been done. The official conclusion that the accident The question that needed to be asked was whether was caused by the negligence to a gross degree of the there was any scope for doubt in anyone’s mind. In two pilots on duty that day, Flight Lieutenants Jonathan this case, other, competent, persons did have doubts. Tapper and Richard Cook, had been criticised almost That is sufficient to warrant the conclusion that the since the day it was reached. Doubt had been cast on findings should not stand. the findings in different ways by the fatal accident I would like to make four further points. First, this review held in 1995, by the Defence Committee and report does not purport to tell us exactly why Chinook the Public Accounts Committee of this House in 1998 ZD576 crashed. It is central to Lord Philip’s report and 2000, and by the Select Committee appointed in that the exact cause will never be established, and I am another place in 2002. convinced that pursuing the matter further would serve A number of Members of this House have continued only to increase the distress of the family and friends to voice their doubts over the findings of gross negligence, of those who died in the accident. But those who and I would wish to acknowledge the unflagging interest allege a long-running conspiracy to cover up technical in the case shown by my honourable and right honourable shortcomings in this aircraft will find no support here. friends the Members for North East Fife, Kensington, The Chinook has had an excellent safety record since North East Hampshire, and North West Norfolk, and the disaster at the Mull. It has been a mainstay of our also by Sir John Major. I know that the Ministry of operations in successive theatres of war and it has the Defence considered those reports carefully, taking full confidence of those who fly it. On this occasion, independent and specialist advice, but given the weight however, the report reveals that the pilot expressed and breadth of the comments I thought it only right to concerns that he felt unprepared to fly the aircraft. ask an independent figure to check whether justice Secondly, I want to emphasise that Air Chief Marshals had been done. Sir John Day and Sir William Wratten, now retired, I announced the establishment of the review—the who made the decision were and are highly respected first independent review of the evidence relating to and experienced airmen who acted at all times with the accident set up by the Government themselves—to full conviction as to the right and proper course and in the House on 16 September last year. It was my good faith. They did not reach their decision lightly intention that its report, whatever its findings might and they did ask for legal advice. Regrettably that legal be, should draw a line under this matter. It has been advice, although subsequently endorsed by independent carried out by the distinguished former Scottish judge, Queen’s Counsel, has now proved to be incorrect. I Lord Philip, with the advice and support of a panel of attach no personal blame to these distinguished officers three fellow Privy Counsellors, Lord Forsyth, Baroness and their advisers. Liddell, and my right honourable friend the Member Thirdly, the procedures for investigation of air and for Gordon. I am extremely grateful to all four for other military accidents were changed some years ago, their thorough and painstaking approach to the task with the result that it is no longer the practice for and for the clarity with which they have presented boards of inquiry—now service inquiries—to ascribe their recommendations, which are unanimous. blame to those involved, whether or not they survived 737 Mull of Kintyre Review[13 JULY 2011] Mull of Kintyre Review 738 the accident. This was because sometimes the business of inquiry and guidance was produced, and I note of ascribing blame can get in the way of finding out from the Statement that the Secretary of State intends what actually happened and, most importantly, preventing to take another look at this issue to reassure himself any recurrence. that procedures are adequate and appropriate. Lord Fourthly, the report makes one further Philip has also commented on the board of inquiry recommendation: that the Ministry of Defence should procedures at the time of the accident but indicated reconsider its policy and procedures for the transport that his concerns have been met by subsequent changes of personnel whose responsibilities are vital to national to those procedures. security. I accept that recommendation too. It has The terms of reference of the review were: implications for land and sea as well as air transport. I have directed my officials to ensure that the policy and “To examine all available evidence relating to the findings of procedures in place across all three services ensure that the board of inquiry into the fatal accident at the Mull of Kintyre we do not unnecessarily risk so many individuals who on 2 June 1994; and to report conclusions to the Secretary of State for Defence as soon as possible”. are vital to national security on one vehicle. It is worth noting that Flight Lieutenant Tapper had asked for The review was not asked to make conclusions as to the passengers on the Chinook that crashed to be split the cause of the accident but it did not find new between more than one helicopter. evidence to suggest mechanical failure, and no safety This has been an unhappy affair that has caused issue with the Chinook mark 2 has been raised in the much reflection within the Royal Air Force and anguish report. Lord Philip’s conclusion is very specific. He for the families of those who died, and particularly for states that according to the regulations in force at the those who were wrongly officially found to have been time, a finding of negligence should only have been negligent to a gross degree. I hope that this report and made against air crew who had been killed in an the action that I have taken in response to it will bring accident if there was “absolutely no doubt whatsoever” an end to this chapter by removing this stain on the about the matter. Lord Philip indicates that competent reputation of the two pilots”. persons did have doubts, albeit not the reviewing officers, and that accordingly the findings should not stand. 4.33 pm It would appear that successive Secretaries of State, initially from the Conservatives and then from Labour, Lord Rosser: My Lords, I thank the Minister for serving from the time of the incident until the last repeating the Statement made in the other place by the election, felt they should follow the view of the reviewing Secretary of State for Defence. As a result, an opportunity officers, which was backed up by legal advice, even has been provided to enable noble Lords from all sides though it now seems from Lord Philip’s report that the of the House to express their views in the light of the RAF’s own regulations were not followed since there Statement on a tragedy that has been the subject of was not the necessary level of proof—namely, “absolutely considerable comment and concern. no doubt whatsoever”—which there should have been We pay tribute to the 29 people who died in the for a finding of gross negligence. Indeed, investigations accident, and to the dignity and bravery of their families. by the Public Accounts Committee in 2000 and a We add our thanks to Lord Philip for his review of Select Committee of your Lordships’ House in 2001 and report on the tragic accident in June 1994, when a both found that the findings of the board of inquiry Chinook mark 2 helicopter crashed on the Mull of did not satisfy the burden of proof required. Kintyre, and also to the panel of three Privy Counsellors who assisted Lord Philip in his work, two of whom are The Secretary of State and the Ministry of Defence Members of your Lordships’ House. accept Lord Philip’s finding that there was room for The review was mainly of the written record of the doubt on the matter and that therefore the finding of board of inquiry and of other related evidence that, it negligence to a gross degree was unjustified. We believe was felt, might throw light on the findings of the that, in the light of Lord Philip’s report, the Secretary board. The original board of inquiry made no finding of State and the Ministry of Defence have made the of culpability, but the two reviewing officers made a correct decision. It is only right that if a finding of finding of gross negligence in respect of the two pilots. negligence to a gross degree is to stand, the evidence It is unfortunate that some of Lord Philip’s conclusions must be such as to leave no doubt whatsoever. Lord were apparently leaked, as they were fairly extensively Philip has quite clearly found that not to be the case. reported over last weekend. Perhaps the Minister might I have three questions to put to the Minister. In the like to comment on this in his response and tell us Statement, it was said that the report reveals that the what action, if any, is being taken. pilot expressed concerns that he felt unprepared to fly The principal recommendation that the board of the aircraft. Could the Minister tell the House how this inquiry finding of negligence to a gross degree should matter was dealt with at the time, and what lessons be set aside has been accepted and implemented by the have been learned and implemented? Secondly, can Defence Council. Lord Philip felt that the Ministry of the Minister say what issues surrounding compensation Defence should consider offering an apology to the for the families of the deceased arise from the report? I families of Flight Lieutenant Tapper and Flight Lieutenant hope that this now brings this matter to a conclusion—one Cook. The Secretary of State for Defence has just that all will feel able to accept. With that sentiment in given that apology and we agree with that. mind, I have only one further question to ask the There is also an issue of the large number of key Minister: will he confirm that there will now be no personnel who were travelling together on the Chinook further reviews or enquiries seeking to establish the that crashed. The matter was reviewed after the board cause of the accident? 739 Mull of Kintyre Review[LORDS] Mull of Kintyre Review 740

4.39 pm noble friend Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan? He has worked closely with the families, as recently as today, Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, first, I thank the to ensure that they are kept up to speed with what is noble Lord for his support for the work carried out by happening in your Lordships’ House and in the other Lord Philip and his review. I am also grateful to the place. noble Lord for his support for what my department is trying to do to establish what happened and what All of this sorry saga hinges on a piece of legal lessons can be learnt. Like the noble Lord I, too, pay advice that was wrong. It is unfortunate that that tribute to the 29 people who died in this accident and happened. There are family members of both Flight to their families. Lieutenant Tapper and Flight Lieutenant Cook who did not live to see this day. Our sympathy goes to them The noble Lord asked me several questions, the as well. Will the Minister acknowledge that many first of which was about the leaks. It was disappointing lessons had been learnt before now in matters of how that Lord Philip’s main recommendation was widely deceased air crew are represented before a board of reported over the weekend. We commenced enquiries inquiry? It is not before time that we now have a immediately to establish who was responsible and system that ensures that this miscarriage of justice those enquiries continue. There has been a lot of wild, cannot ever again be repeated. inaccurate and unhelpful speculation in the press, which must have been very distressing and concerning to the families. I deeply deplore that. Lord Astor of Hever: I thank the noble Baroness for The noble Lord asked me about key personnel what she said, and I certainly echo her thanks to Lord travelling together. As Lord Philip’s report acknowledges, Philip. I also thank the noble Baroness herself and my we reviewed our process for transportation of personnel noble friend for all the very hard work that they put vital to national security after the board of inquiry, into this excellent report. I also assure the noble and we did produce guidance at that point. However, Baroness that many lessons have been learnt from this the Secretary of State has said that he wants to take whole process, and hopefully we have a template to another look to reassure himself that our procedures make things very much better in the future. in this area are adequate. The noble Lord also asked about the safety issues Lord Bannside: My Lords, as the representative for relating to the Chinook. Lord Philip’s report raises no North Antrim in another place at the time of this safety issue with the Chinook mark 2. Indeed, Lord happening, this is a sad day. Yet it has some gladness Philip writes in his report that, about it, because the record of the two men concerned is now clear. That is a great relief to the families and to “it is now regarded as a highly successful aircraft”. those of us who have followed this carefully. I, as the The Chief of the Air Staff endorsed this position and MP for that area, followed it very carefully and in fact wrote to the Guardian in January last year. He said: raised it in another place. The years have gone by. “The Chinook helicopter has a remarkable safety record and Today, the fingers no longer point at the two men at has proved a mainstay of recent operations”. whom they were pointed. I am relieved that this matter The noble Lord pointed out that the pilot had expressed has come to this conclusion. Of course, there will be concern. I quote from Lord Philip’s review: soreness; death is cruel, and so are the circumstances “We were told that Flt Lt Tapper telephoned his Deputy that bring about such deaths. I thank the two brilliant Flight Commander on the evening before the delivery of ZD576 men who served their Queen and country well. They to Northern Ireland expressing concern that some time had have now passed to the other side without any blemish passed since his conversion training. He felt unprepared to fly the upon them. I am sure that on the great day when all aircraft. He had attempted to persuade the tasking authority to spread the load between more than one aircraft, but his request secrets are revealed, there will be full justice for all. had been refused”. There will be a degree of joy and gladness that this My Lords, I am sure lots of lessons have been learnt matter has come to this end. I do not want to make from that, and certainly we put safety as an absolutely any other comment than that. pre-eminent issue as far as the Royal Air Force is I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I concerned. thank the Government for listening. I was a bit of a The noble Lord asked me about compensation for nuisance to them, and I needed to be, but I am glad families. This is a confidential matter, but I can assure that we have this good finding today. The way of two him that this will be taken forward in the normal way. wise men will stand the test, and it has stood the test. Finally, I can reassure him that I very much hope that this is the end of the matter. For the families of all Lord Astor of Hever: I thank the noble Lord for those who were killed, I very much hope this is the end. what he says and I agree with him. I pay tribute to all those in this House, the other place and outside Parliament who have made this day possible. 4.42 pm Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: My Lords, I thank Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, will my noble the Minister for his repetition of the Statement from friend pass on my thanks, on behalf of all the people the other place, and also thank the Secretary of State who took part in this inquiry, for the speedy way in for the willingness with which he has acknowledged which the Secretary of State has considered our report, the conclusions of Lord Philip’s review. Will the Minister and for the way in which he has accepted the reiterate his thanks to Lord Philip for his tenacity and recommendations, made a fulsome apology and handled his wisdom in dealing with this matter, and also to my this sensitive situation with the families so very well? 741 Mull of Kintyre Review[13 JULY 2011] Mull of Kintyre Review 742

Having said that, and having looked at this matter in Lord Alderdice: My Lords, I confirm what my considerable detail and had some pretty robust exchanges, noble friend said: that there is indeed all-party support it should be clearly understood that the air chief for the Government’s decision and today’s Statement. marshals concerned, in reaching the conclusions that I remember well, as do many noble Lords, the events they did, were misdirected. They acted in the best of that day and the shock felt throughout these islands, possible way and felt that they were carrying out their but particularly in Northern Ireland. While it was a duties. The fact that this matter has now been resolved, huge tragedy that those 29 people were killed, in my and that the two pilots who were killed while serving part of the world, because of the extraordinary degree their country have had this stain removed from them, of intelligence that was held in the minds of those is a great tribute to my right honourable friend the people, there was a great fear that many other lives Secretary of State who initiated the inquiry and to were about to be lost to the terrorist cause because of Lord Philip who led it. He has achieved something the death of these extremely skilled and high-serving that I have not achieved in 30 years of my political officers. career—unanimity between me and the noble Baroness. Does my noble friend understand that in my part of the world there remains anxiety and concern that the Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I thank my noble request of the young officer that the 29 should not fly friend for that question. I assure him that I will pass together was set aside? It seems that that approach has on what he says to the Secretary of State. He referred not been fully resolved until now, and the Minister is to the reviewing officers—the two air chief marshals. indicating that there will be a further review on procedures. It is very important that I say this to the House: the These are not complicated questions. There is a notion integrity and diligence of both senior officers whose that it requires a review of procedures to ascertain duty it was to review the board’s finding—Air Chief whether it was wise to take 29 of the most senior Marshal Day and Air Chief Marshal Wratten—are security service officers together, but this is a matter of beyond question. They had all the available evidence common sense, not policies and procedures. Can my before them and reached their verdict with scrupulous noble friend understand the anxiety that the Statement care and total honesty. They took appropriate legal creates: that it takes policies and procedures in the advice before reaching their decision. They clearly did Ministry of Defence rather than common sense to everything they could to secure advice in order to deal with the security of our people? make a comprehensive assessment of the evidence before coming to their findings. Lord Astor of Hever: Again, I am grateful to my noble friend for this all-party support for the decision. Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan: My Lords, I am Of course I understand the anxiety. I clearly remember chairman of the Mull of Kintyre Group, which has that terrible, terrible day and I quite understand how it pestered successive Secretaries of State, and, indeed, must have felt in Northern Ireland. As I said earlier, Prime Ministers, since 1996. This is a day from which the Royal Air Force has learnt lessons from this disaster we derive considerable satisfaction. Speaking from the and its safety standards are higher than those of any opposition Benches, I give full praise to Liam Fox and other air force in the world. his colleagues for the manner in which they set up the inquiry and accepted its findings. I also pay tribute to Lord Gilbert: My Lords, it fell to me, rather sadly, my two colleagues in this House, and Malcolm Bruce on 22 May 1997 to make my maiden remarks in your in the other place, for the work that they did with Lord Lordships’ House on this very subject. What we have Philip in coming to what we regard as a satisfactory heard today is a lawyer telling us that he disagrees with ending to a sorry tale. It is a satisfactory ending that a decision of another lawyer. This is not a criticism, as should not only enable the two families of the men I fully understand the deeply held emotions of people who have been wronged for so long but afford an on this subject, but we have not heard a thing today opportunity for the book to be closed for the other about how the crash occurred. I refer noble Lords to 27 families whose support in this has been a great col. 559 on 22 May 1997. The pilots elected to fly consolation to us. under visual flight rules, which state that one must at We know that attempts have been made to develop all times be in visual contact with the ground. We conspiracy theories and to find a silver bullet. The know that the highest point of the Mull of Kintyre is truth is that there is no silver bullet. However, there 1,463 feet above sea level. About 40 seconds from has been a gross injustice based on legal advice that impact, the aircraft was flying at a height estimated at appears now to have been fundamentally flawed. I between 200 and 400 feet. It flew from visual would like to think that the MoD will be more careful in meteorological conditions into instrument meteorological the manner in which it seeks and ultimately accepts conditions. It was approaching the Mull of Kintyre at legal advice of this gravity in the future. I should least 2,000 feet below the height at which it should like to think that the counsel from whom the MoD have been under instrument flight rules in order to sought advice will never be employed in that capacity clear the Mull. again. I am afraid that I will upset a lot of my friends when I say that there is no doubt whatever in my mind Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I am grateful to the that the crash was down to pilot error. We have not noble Lord for this all-party support. As I said to the heard a thing today about the plane being unsafe—not noble Lord opposite, I very much hope for the sake of a word. That is because it was not: it is a brilliant piece all the families that this matter can now be closed. of kit. I am a sorry that I have to disagree totally with That is really important. We will never know the truth this decision. I support the air marshals in the decision of what happened that evening, but today is a happy day. that they came to. 743 Mull of Kintyre Review[LORDS] European Union Bill 744

Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I sat through the For my part, when I was Secretary of State for debate in 1997: I have a copy of it here, including the Defence, my noble friend Lord O’Neill and others of noble Lord’s speech. I support Lord Philip’s finding his group made representations to me and presented that there was room for doubt on the matter and that me with quite a substantial body of information arguing therefore the initial finding of negligence to a gross for just this outcome. I challenged the legal advice, in degree was unjustified. Lord Philip did not find that the sense that I sought independent legal advice. Indeed, the pilots were blameless, but rather that it was not I went further because I challenged another point of clear beyond absolutely any doubt whatsoever that law—it has not become part of this report—which I they were negligent. Those are the four important think should also have instructed the conclusion that words: “absolutely any doubt whatsoever”. we have today. I regret that I was no longer in post when that process came to a conclusion. Lord Stirrup: My Lords, the Minister explained I do not know this, but I am certain that the that Lord Philip’s ruling on a point of law means that original legal advice was reinforced by the advice that a finding of gross negligence is not sustainable. However, came to my successor, my noble friend Lord Hutton, in relation to some of the issues that have been raised, when he was Secretary of State for Defence. I have no and perhaps as an aid to clarity for Members of the way of knowing that that was the case, but I suspect it House, will the Minister tell us what view Lord Philip was. While I understand that this appears to be an took of the conduct and findings of the board of argument between lawyers, there is a pretty straightforward inquiry into the most probable cause of the accident? argument at the heart of this, which Lord Philip and his review team exposed in a simple and uncomplicated Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, Lord Philip’s review fashion. For those reasons I welcome this decision. concluded that the test on which the air chief marshals I am pleased for the families of Flight Lieutenants came to their finding of negligence to a gross degree Tapper and Cook that this conclusion has been come did not meet the standard of objectivity that he judged to today. However, other families were involved in this to be right. Therefore, the finding has been set aside. dreadful tragedy, the anguish of which has been protracted Lord Philip did not criticise in any way the conclusions over a long period. I know from my own information drawn by the president of the board of inquiry. that many of those families and individuals in them were disturbed because of the controversy that continued Lord Eden of Winton: My Lords, as someone who in relation to this. Every time the issue was raised, took part in the first debate in this House on this there was trauma for individuals and families of the subject, perhaps I may ask, very quietly and gently, other 27 deceased. I seek reassurance from the Minister how it is possible that it has taken so long for this that the department with responsibility for this will conclusion to be reached: namely, that there was not ensure that those families are supported through this sufficient clarity to confirm the errors attributed to the process, because some of them are now left in a pilots. As my noble friend said, there had to be a situation where they do not know what was responsible conclusion that there was no reasonable doubt. This for the death of their loved ones. point was pressed very hard during the first debate and in all subsequent exchanges. Were it not for the Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I thank the noble persistence of honourable Members and members of Lord for the points that he makes and his question. I the pilots’ families, this matter might still have been also thank him for his support. I agree with what he subject to the wrong conclusion. Therefore, as others says about the clarity of the report. I was aware of the have done, I thank my noble friend and, through him, noble Lord’s concerns when he was Secretary of State the Secretary of State for Defence for having ordered and, like him, my thoughts are with the families of all this further inquiry. I emphasise the point with which the 29. They will be supported by my department and, he concluded his Statement; it is to be hoped that this to start with, they will get copies of the report and the will draw a line under this very sad event. discussions in this House and the other place, and that will be followed through. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I deeply regret that the time that has elapsed has added to the families’ Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords— distress. The Secretary of State has apologised for the sorrow caused to the families by the original finding of negligence to a gross degree. I share my noble friend’s European Union Bill aspirations that this will be the end of the matter. Commons Amendments and Reasons

Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I welcome the 5.04 pm Minister’s Statement. I also welcome the report of the review body and wish to be associated with the words Motion A of gratitude to Lord Philip and his review team. I particularly commend the clarity of this report to Moved by Lord Howell of Guildford noble Lords; it is in the clarity that the decision is That this House do not insist on its Amendments 3 supported, as we have already heard in this House this and 5 to which the Commons have disagreed for afternoon. At the heart of this report is the decision their Reason 5A. that the legal advice that informed the original decision— 5A: Because the outcome of the referendum should be determined repeatedly tested, I have to say, including independently— by those who vote in it and should not depend on how many do not was wrong. vote. 745 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 746

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth frustrated. That example was used on Monday last by Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, we now the shadow Minister for Europe who said that it is why come to the consideration of the other place’s response many, to your Lordships’ amendments to this important “Labour Members have reservations about the use of the 40% legislation. YourLordships will recall that we examined threshold”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/7/11; col. 75.] this Bill in great depth over eight sittings in Committee In November last year, Chris Bryant MP, who was and three days on Report, so I hope we can deal with Minister for Europe under the Labour Government, these matters thoroughly but also reasonably briefly. said that referendums were not a good idea. What Your Lordships’ House rightly took a good look at interests me—I think that your Lordships also would the detailed provisions of the Bill. We did our duty in like to know—is whether noble Lords opposite share scrutinising it, and we saw fit to make a number of those reservations, which they appeared not to share amendments to the Bill—15 in all. on Report. Please can we know whether they have changed their view? I shall make a brief comment to set the scene before coming to the Motion. There were four sets of issues It now falls to your Lordships to consider whether which led us to focus on these matters today. The to insist on these amendments, given the opposition, Government listened to the well and strongly put once again, to the threshold from the other place and arguments on, first, the construction of Clause 18 and given the clear and well informed doubts on all sides proposed amendments in the other place, which we about the wisdom, sense and advisability of having will come to later. We also listened carefully to the thresholds injected into referenda for either these or arguments put forward on three other sets of issues: wider matters. I hope that your Lordships will decide the turnout threshold, which is the Motion immediately that we need not pursue this issue further. I beg to before us; the proposed changes to the shape of Clause 6; move. and on the introduction of a sunset—maybe it should be renamed “suspension”—clause. The other place Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, we have not also looked at these things very carefully. On Monday proposed any amendment to Motion A, which has last, the other place disagreed, as do the Government, been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford. with your Lordships’ amendments on those three latter Accordingly, we accept the decision of the House of issues, and it is now for this House to consider and Commons to refuse any role for Parliament in the decide whether to insist on your Lordships’ amendments event—a perhaps rather unlikely event—of a referendum or to accept the message from the other House. with a small or even derisory turnout. It is regrettable that, not just in relation to this Bill but in relation to The first of these issues is the subject of this Motion, other issues more widely, we have not established how which relates to Amendments 3 and 5 that were moved we might deal with such cases. As we see in the with great eloquence by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson Localism Bill and elsewhere, the referendum is likely of Horton. We had two debates on them, one in to play a much bigger role in government in Britain in Committee and one on Report, and on Report your the future and on more issues. Lordships voted in favour of these amendments by Although in this case the House of Commons has 221 votes to 216. In contrast, the other place considered refused the role which this House proposed for Parliament, these amendments and disagreed to the Lords no doubt the noble Lord the Minister will agree that amendments without division, by consensus. because Parliament is sovereign it could in the future, if it so wished, amend the Act to insert a role for itself As my right honourable friend the Minister for as we proposed in relation to a low or very low turnout Europe summing up the core issue said during the in a specific referendum. But that issue does not arise debate in the other place, today. “The outcome of a referendum should, in our view, be determined by the will of those who vote and not by how many turn up to Lord Triesman: My Lords, I want to associate this vote”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/7/11; col. 65.] side of the House with what the noble Lord, Lord It remains our view that it is vital that in any referendum Williamson, has said. The matter will not be pressed held in accordance with this Bill people are able to go today but I would ask the House to understand the out and vote in the knowledge that their active engagement reasons in the briefest sense for why this was argued in the process will count and that their vote will count. and why I think, even in the earlier example of devolution A threshold for any referendum held in accordance decisions in the past, people were keen to see some with this Bill would stymie the entire intent of the Bill. sort of threshold. The proposal for a 40 per cent threshold is not a benchmark which would be insisted In short, without going over again all the arguments on for every kind of vote in every kind of circumstance, that we have so carefully examined in your Lordships’ although some people might in many circumstances House, installing a mechanism whereby the will of the wish to see that figure exceeded. electorate is automatically declared unimportant and We are talking about changes in quite fundamental the power to decide is passed back to Parliament is not constitutional arrangements. It seems quite reasonable the answer, nor is it the answer in the view of the to say that there should be some degree of consensus House of Lords Constitution Committee. I shall not that is visible and substantial when a major constitutional delay the House with a quotation from that Committee change is to take place. These changes in relationships about the undesirability of thresholds. We saw that on with Europe would be significant constitutional changes, the single occasion where a threshold was used, in which is precisely why this legislation is before the 1979, the clearly expressed will of the people was House in the first place. It would be wrong to say that 747 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 748

[LORD TRIESMAN] has again put forward some strong arguments. These it is not simply a matter of how many turn up to vote are matters that have been debated over the years. because whatever the proportion is you would still have When we come to a Bill of this nature, the issues are to win the vote as well in order to achieve the result. similar to when one comes to legislation about local To conclude, a number of constitutional changes elections or elections to the European Parliament. are before your Lordships’ House in this parliamentary Indeed, I believe there is even a parliamentary election Session. We have had them on constituencies, on AV on record in this country where the vote has been and in this Bill. We will probably see some in any Bill below 40 per cent but no one has suggested they about reform of your Lordships’ House. In introducing should be invalid. piecemeal constitutional change, always with the possibility I suspect this debate will continue, but it is the view of it being adopted without there being real and of the Government that in these circumstances such a genuine safeguards, we will end up with a set of threshold would create a charter for the abstentionists. jig-saw pieces from different jig-saws all shaken into It would be extremely attractive to those who were the same box and without prospect of being joined anxious not to vote and to promote the desire not to together in any realistic way or without people making vote. It would undermine the whole purpose lying realistic decisions about the overall impact of what we behind the structure of the Bill, which is to check the are doing. We deny ourselves the safeguard today and, haemorrhaging of confidence and popular support once again, I suspect that we will regret it. for the European Union’s development and to reinforce the case for the European Union’s development. That Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I consider is why I am a little sad to hear those who have that the very strong and articulate arguments put dedicated their lives and efforts to promoting an effective forward by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, and fit for purpose European Union not to be supporting and very carefully considered by this House, deserve a it. However, I understand the alternative views and I little more than the rather supercilious dismissal of the leave the matter there. whole argument by the other place: “Because the outcome of the referendum should be determined Lord Hannay of Chiswick: I am grateful to the by those who vote in it and should not depend on how many do noble Lord for giving way, but it is a pity that he has to not vote”. caricature what the original amendment said. It did One might say that that is almost contemptuous. I not suggest that a vote with a turnout under 40 per support what the noble Lords, Lord Williamson of cent would be invalid. It suggested that it would be Horton and Lord Triesman have said, although I do advisory and not mandatory—that is completely different. not expect them to press the matter to a vote. Frankly, some of the arguments that were adduced about the level of participation in the European Parliament 5.15 pm elections are not transposable whatsoever to the area we are currently discussing, which is a national referendum. However, I want to make one other reference, because it shows that the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, is right in saying that this issue cannot simply be put on a shelf Lord Howell of Guildford: Perhaps I should have and forgotten. Let me give three very quick quotations hesitated longer before speaking because we are opening to the House. The first quotation is: up the whole issue again. The invalidity I am applying is that the referendum would then become advisory, “The Government is under pressure from Tory MPs to reform whereas the whole requirement and central thrust of industrial relations laws so unions would have to secure a turnout of more than 50 per cent in ballots before action could go ahead”. the Bill is that the referendum is mandatory on Governments, not on Parliaments—you cannot be The second quotation is: mandatory on Parliaments. That is what I intended to “The Confederation of British Industry has suggested a 40 per say, so I am sorry if I did not convey it accurately. We cent threshold”, have had the debate, so I beg to press the Motion. before any industrial action can take place. Finally, third quotation is from the Conservative Mayor of Motion agreed. London, Mr Boris Johnson, who has argued for a “50 per cent threshold” before London Underground could determine a strike. Motion B This is an example of the fact that it is not enough Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire to dismiss the proposals as if they were superficial and politically driven. It is clear in one area after another That this House do not insist on its Amendments 6 that the issue of thresholds is alive and relevant, and to 13 to which the Commons have disagreed for that already, in other spheres of legislation, there are their Reason 13A. very strong arguments that thresholds must be seriously 13A: Because the decisions concerned would involve an increase in the competences or powers of the European Union in relation to considered. I advise the House to be a little careful the United Kingdom and should therefore require approval by about simply dismissing the argument for some kind referendum as well as by Act. of threshold. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, we now turn to Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I hesitate to the list of decisions in the existing treaties which were enter again into the whole great debate on referendums, previously subject to the requirement of approval by which really moves us away from the issues of the Act and by referendum under Clause 6 but which for European Union Bill. My noble friend Baroness Williams the most part would require approval only by Act as a 749 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 750 result of your Lordships’ amendments. As with the German intentions, woven into an anti-European previous amendments, the Government listened carefully narrative, have been endlessly recycled in much of the to the arguments put forward after the amendments British media. Some noble Lords might like to reflect were agreed by a vote of 214 to 209 in this House. The on whether there ever was a Faustian pact with the other place considered these issues further two days Murdoch press in its Anglo-Saxon but anti-European ago after having examined in detail the make-up of stance, whereby it would support British Governments Clause 6 during its consideration at the start of this so long as they maintained an opposition to stronger year. It has disagreed with your Lordships’ amendments European co-operation and in particular to international on the basis of our opposition to these changes and by regulation of media ownership and competition. consensus. In so doing, the shadow Europe Minister, If I may speak as a Liberal Democrat, I am entirely Wayne David, said: comfortable with the constructive approach that this “Of course, Members in the other place are entitled to their coalition is taking to relations with our European views, but we have reservations about the proposal that referendums neighbours, large and small, and its positive engagement should be confined to these three subject areas, and it is important with the institutions of the European Union. However, to put on the record that my comments set out the Labour party’s position”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/7/11; col. 75.] it will take us time to regenerate public confidence and to rebuild public trust. The provisions of the Bill, It now falls to your Lordships’ House to consider including those of Clause 6, are there to reassure our whether to insist on its amendments on the basis of sceptical citizens that the British Government will not the approval of this clause, twice over, by the other attempt to slip past them unexplained further transfers place. I would be particularly interested to learn from of power or competence to institutions which at present, noble Lords on the Front Bench opposite whether sadly, inspire limited loyalty and widespread mistrust. they will reflect the Labour Party’s position today or continue to adopt a different approach. The other place has now considered the scope of Clause 6 on two occasions. In both cases the other In moving the amendments on Report, the noble place has approved that the scope of the referendum Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, stated that, requirement should incorporate the 12 decisions. On “the long list of potential referendums is excessive and the second occasion it did so by overwhelming consensus. disproportionate”.—[Official Report, 13/6/11; col. 552.] It now, therefore, falls to your Lordships’ House to While I appreciate that there are strongly held views consider whether or not to insist on its amendments, on this issue, I should like briefly to repeat why the but I beg to move that it accepts the view of the other Government do not agree with this view. The coalition’s place. programme for government sets out at the start of the section on Europe that, “no further powers should be transferred to Brussels without a Motion B1 referendum”. Moved by Lord Liddle All the decisions listed in Clause 6 in its previous form would constitute such a transfer, as recognised by the As an amendment to Motion B, at end insert other place in its reason for disagreement. As we have “but do propose Amendment 13B in lieu” made clear previously, Clause 6 consists of five self- 13B: Clause 6, page 5, line 49, at end insert— standing decisions of great sensitivity, such as on ( ) Where this section requires that the referendum condition is whether to join the euro or to give up national border met before a decision is approved, the referendum condition will controls, and seven sensitive national vetoes using a only be mandatory where a Minister of the Crown lays before passerelle and avoiding formal treaty changes. Parliament a statement indicating that in the Minister’s opinion the issue in question is of major economic and constitutional We are debating this Bill in the context of a wide significance.” malaise within the European public across most EU member states and a worrying disconnect between the Brussels institutions and the national publics of the Lord Liddle: My Lords, I beg to move Motion B1 in member states. Michel Barnier, European Commissioner the name of my noble friend Lord Triesman. The for the Internal Market, said in a recent speech in Berlin: original amendment which this House carried reduced “For 60 years we have been building Europe for its citizens the number of referendum locks in the Bill from 56 to and in their name; but too often we have been doing it without three—that is not counting major treaty change. That them. A malaise has taken hold and the gap between Europe and was the amendment that we carried and that has been its citizens has gradually widened”— considered by the other place. This amendment substitutes that is to say, not just within the UK but across the for the position we took on that occasion the view that EU. The deference on which Europe was built, which referendums should be mandatory only where, in the was given to managerial élites in Brussels on behalf of view of the Secretary of State, they are of major its peoples but without their informed understanding economic and constitutional significance. I assure noble and consent, and through which substantial powers Lords opposite that that is fully in line with the policy were transferred to Brussels, has now disappeared. We of the Labour Party. have to rebuild public confidence in institutionalised When the Bill first went through the House we were co-operation among European Governments. We have told many times by the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that to carry our voters with us, not sweep through complex all the issues covered were constitutionally or economically multilateral commitments over their heads. significant, but when you actually look at it, that Successive Governments in Britain have failed to cannot be the case. When you look at the questions of make the case for positive European engagement over moving from consensus, or unanimity, to majority the past 20 years or more. Suspicions of French and voting listed in Schedule 1 to the Bill, they cannot 751 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 752

[LORD LIDDLE] Lord Liddle: I am sorry, I am not going to give way conceivably be regarded as constitutionally significant. any more. For instance, there are matters such as the approximation of national laws affecting the internal market, the Lord Pearson of Rannoch: The noble Lord was guidelines of economic policies and excessive deficit telling the House how frightful it would be if the procedures. As we know, on one of these items—the United Kingdom were to leave the European Union. I British Government changing the list of military products do not know whether he has seen the latest state of exempt from internal market provisions—the noble public opinion in this country, which is very much at Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, pointed out that we odds with your Lordships’ House. If the noble Lord had been arguing for this as a country in our national cares to read a newspaper—which may not be his interest for years in the councils of the Union. So the regular reading—in the shape of today’s Daily Mail, Bill contains far more referendum locks than those he will see that the public now would vote by 50 per that could be regarded as of major constitutional cent to 33 per cent to leave the European Union if a significance. referendum were held tomorrow. Your Lordships are Noble Lords on the government Benches are fond even more out of touch with the British people of of quoting the Lords Constitution Committee when it your own generation because among the over 60s the suits them. What they fail to quote is the major percentages are 61 per cent to leave and only 29 per conclusion of the Lords Constitution Committee on cent to stay in. That is a poll carried out by referendums—that they should be used only on matters YouGov@Cambridge for the political news website of major constitutional significance. They cannot Dods PoliticsHome, so it is quite respectable. The conceivably argue that all the items covered here pass noble Lord and your Lordships who do not like the that test. If we do not apply this test, as in this revised Bill are completely out of touch with British public amendment, we are making a major move from a opinion. representative democracy to a plebiscitary democracy and that is something that should be of as much Lord Liddle: That is because the argument for British concern to Eurosceptics as it is to pro-Europeans. membership of the Union has not been made forcefully. The other problem with this plethora of locks, as That is why we need to do that in future. However, we we have argued before, is that they will gravely inhibit are not going to do that as a result of this Bill. That is the ability of any British Minister or Government to where noble Lords opposite are wrong. represent our national interests in European on a All our political institutions suffer from major distrust. flexible basis as issues come up. No Government will If, again, you consider the polling evidence on trust in volunteer to hold referendums, not because they fear Parliament or trust in the Government, you will find Euroscepticism but because, as has been shown by all that there is as much mistrust in the British Government, the academic evidence that has studied them, referendums the British Parliament and the British political parties are, in the main, decided by the people on issues other as there is in the European Union. Of course, one does than the question being asked. That is what you get in not underestimate the degree of scepticism among the a plebiscitary democracy. All kinds of issues are decided public, but it is ironic that we are discussing the on questions that are nothing to do with the subject of question of Europe today when the Murdoch press is the referendum. If it is impossible to put issues to in such difficulty in its relations with the British people. referendums, then Britain will be very constrained in I do not know how many noble Lords in this House its European policy. If this is continued for 10 or have received mail and been approached by members 20 years, it is bound to lead to a process of British of the public because of the amendments that we self-marginalisation in the European Union. carried when the Bill went through the House before, I do not believe for a second that that is what the but I suspect very few. The real public anger today is noble Lords, Lord Howell and Lord Wallace, and directed at the media—particularly at the Murdoch the Benches opposite want. However, the truth is that press and at News International, which more than the Adullamite cave of anti-Europeans in the other other organisation has used its position to obstruct place and in the Conservative Party, who have insisted positive British policy in the European Union. By on putting the Bill in the coalition agreement, want to going along with this Bill we are sacrificing representative make Britain marginal in Europe because they want democracy and Britain’s ability to pursue an effective the Bill to lead to Britain coming out of the European policy in Europe. Union. I do not think, as I say, that is why the proposers are putting this Bill forward. I think that the Liberal Lord Dykes: Is not the noble Lord also perturbed Democrats are rather embarrassed by this piece of that at the last annual Ditchley lecture the former legislation, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, Prime Minister, the right honourable John Major, has told us. feared that Britain was already a semi-detached member It may upset the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of of the European Union. Rannoch, greatly but I have a lot of friends in Brussels. One of them passed on to me a letter that Nick Clegg, 5.30 pm the Deputy Prime Minister, had sent to Andrew Duff MEP about this piece of legislation. Towards the end, Lord Liddle: Yes, I heard that John Major had said it says: that. It is a great concern, which will grow as a result “In addition, any referendum to ratify a Treaty change covered of this policy. by the EU Bill’s referendum lock must first be preceded by an Act of Parliament in order to provide Parliamentary approval and to Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords— make provisions for the holding of a referendum”. 753 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 754

We all agree about the Act of Parliament. He goes on from the policy that it has pursued for so many years, to say: saying that it is out of touch with the people and has “This would, for example, enable a future Parliament to not taken sufficient account of their views. decide that the provisions in the EU Bill should not apply by Leaving that to one side, I took the trouble to listen amending the Treaty change Bill to that effect”. to the debate in the other place. I think I was the only The only way I can read that statement is that the Member of your Lordships’ House who did so. It was Deputy Prime Minister believes that the provisions of rather a sad occasion, much less well attended than what would become the European Union Act 2011 this one. I am glad to see a wonderful cross-section of would not apply if, in future legislation ratifying a the views held in this House, which will no doubt be European decision or a European treaty, a clause was vigorously debated in the minutes or hours that follow. inserted that the question was not constitutionally There was practically nobody there. When the noble significant and therefore did not justify a referendum. Lord says that the decision was adopted by consensus, I would very much like to know whether the Minister it was the consensus of around 15 or 20 people. They agrees with that interpretation of the Deputy Prime were mainly the people who went into the Lobby Minister’s letter; whether he agrees and accepts that in against the Government on Clause 18 and managed to any future Act ratifying an EU decision a Minister could muster 22 votes. They are therefore people who, by insert a clause rather along the lines of our amendment; their own admission, would much rather than Britain and if so, why the Government refuse so adamantly to was not in the European Union. That is a perfectly accept this sensible amendment? I beg to move. respectable position to take; it is the position that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, takes. Lord Blackwell: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord On the matter that we are discussing now, I support Liddle, called his amendment sensible. We should be the amendment. No one, including me, is persisting clear that it is a wrecking amendment. It requires the with the amendments that we tabled to the Bill and Government to assert that a proposal is of major were voted on in this House. They would have reduced constitutional and economic significance. The noble the number of referendums substantially, though not Lord himself said that no Government voluntarily to only three. The amendment did not affect the submit to a referendum. No proposal would come into provisions that would have required a referendum if the scope of this Bill unless the Government had any general constitutional treaty, such as Lisbon, Nice, supported it and had voted in favour of it in the Maastricht or the Single European Act, had come European Union, so we can take it that the Minister forward. That was not covered by the amendment that and the Government would be behind whatever proposal was rejected by the House of Commons. Only the was being put forward. We are then asking the Minister numerous provisions that provide for 56 other referendums to volunteer to put a referendum through the terms of his were covered. amendment. As he said, no Government will voluntarily I should like briefly to make three points in favour do that. We have the example of the Government’s of this amendment. First, on marginalisation, given record on the Lisbon treaty, which by every measure the problems with holding a referendum at particular should have been put to a referendum but which the moments in our parliamentary cycle, there is a risk that Government solemnly told the House did not require people may be minded to vote for reasons that have one. It is partly because of that that we have the nothing to do with the question on the ballot paper. mistrust to which the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, referred. Therefore, a British Government would be compelled Because of the Lisbon treaty we now have a treaty to reject a change in Europe that they believed to be in that allows many changes to the fundamentals of our the British interest and wished to support because treaty relationship with Europe, including the removal they did not feel able to go to the country in a of vetoes on a whole range of policies covered by referendum. This is exceedingly serious. That is why Clause 6, and amendments to the scope of the institutions we should all listen rather carefully to someone I and the powers of the European Union itself through respect enormously, Sir John Major, who said at Ditchley the passerelle clauses. All are to be done through the in the annual lecture that he gave last Saturday that agreement of Governments without the need for a Britain was at risk of being a semi-detached member treaty change, and therefore without the need for a of the European Union. I know that is not the object referendum on a treaty change. That is why we need of the Government. I have heard many government Clause 6: because the Lisbon treaty enabled those spokesmen flatly deny that and say how active we are. changes to be made without a treaty change, and However, they should take this risk seriously. Clause 6 ensures that that is picked up. The noble Lord’s amendment would completely destroy that 5.45 pm provision and overturn the view of the other place. The second problem is the one that has been alluded to already by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, which is Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, as the person that this is a major extension of plebiscitary democracy who tabled most of the amendments that are the in a country that has hitherto prided itself in putting subject of this debate, I should say a few words. One is its faith in representative parliamentary democracy. meant to rejoice when a Minister eats a large quantity This is not a small subject. Frankly, what is odd about of humble pie. I have to say, I am not rejoicing at this is the huge extension of the plebiscitary approach listening to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, eating in one sector of our national and international life, humble pie for having helped to lead his party to the which is not applied to any of the rest of it at all. various majorities that confirmed the Lisbon treaty. When it was suggested in our earlier debates in Committee Frankly, it is a sad day when the Liberal party recants and Report that perhaps the Government were in 755 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 756

[LORD HANNAY OF CHISWICK] The committee did, favour of referendums on reform of the National Health “not believe that it is possible to provide a precise definition of Service or the education system, strings of garlic were what constitutes a ‘fundamental constitutional issue’”. hung around the government spokesman’s neck. They While it is, swore mightily that they had no such thought. But this “possible to set out in legislation specific issues which should be is a very odd way to go about constitutional change. It subject to a referendum”— really is pretty peculiar to introduce this huge raft of potential referendums into this area. Baroness Quin: I am grateful to the noble Baroness Finally, on my third point, I support this amendment for giving way. I was a member of the Constitution because the lack of flexibility given by the Bill, if it Committee and was very active in promoting the were to pass and become an Act, is a major danger. It report on referendums. The noble Baroness should imports rigidity into the whole British approach to recognise that the committee as a whole was very Europe and, by transposition, it risks importing rigidity sceptical about the use of referendums, which it wanted into the whole evolution of the European Union. to be used only in very limited circumstances. Institutions that do not have the means to reform and adapt themselves become fragile and risk falling out of Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: I thank the contact with what they are meant to be doing. This is a noble Baroness. Of course she is absolutely correct. really serious problem being caused here, and these She was a member, so how can I argue with her? None rigidities are liable to damage both the European Union the less, on the record the committee pointed out that and our own national interests. The purpose of the Parliament should judge what issues will be the subject amendment is to provide a little bit of flexibility where of a referendum. none exists in the present Bill, which is why I support it. I feel profoundly that that is why the other place has clearly supported all these issues that other noble Lords are seeking to remove. The other place has the Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: I was attempting touchstone of having the pulse of the electorate—after to persuade the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, to give way all, the other place is elected. In recent months, four during his very impassioned defence of this particular out of five members of the public have said that they Motion. I merely wish to tease him a bit for one believe that transfers of sovereignty should be put to moment by saying that it is clear that he does not referendum, so I really think that noble Lords would do Daily Mail understand the readership of the —and I best to withdraw their opposition to the other place’s am sure that that is the case, as it does not appear to be position and not press Motion B to a vote. I think his favourite reading, from what he said on an earlier it would be an error of judgment on their Lordships’ part. intervention. But I do not think that he absolutely understands the Liberal Democrats either. Indeed, I Lord Grenfell: My Lords, I warmly support the am not actually sure that he listens to the Liberal amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Democrats. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, made it Triesman and which has been spoken to so eloquently absolutely plain in his statement that he was a Liberal by my noble friend Lord Liddle. Democrat, and I too, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, knows, belong to that party. Occasionally, the peoples of small countries can give those of larger countries some salutary advice. None the less, the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, made a Yesterday I had the pleasure of a meeting and a long very serious and profound point, which was reflected discussion with the president of the Slovenian upper in his signature to the important letter to the Times today, Chamber. We were discussing very openly the current which the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and other immensely political malaise in Slovenia—it is doing very well eminent noble Lords have signed also. The point, of economically but there is political malaise there—and course, is that the issues reflected in the EU Bill the fact that the people of Slovenia were completely for referendums are of “fundamental constitutional turned off by the political class, both the Government importance”, to quote the letter. The statement made in and the Parliament. We were told that one of the the letter, which he reflected again today in his speech, major reasons for this was that they are fed up with is that: having referendums. They are saying to the Parliament, “The Parliamentary Constitution Scrutiny Committee “We elected you to take decisions and to govern, and a recommends that referendums should be confined to changes of fundamental constitutional importance”. Government is there to govern, so why can you do Of course, economy of the truth is something that nothing without first asking the people in referendums? others, maybe even Secretaries to the Cabinet, have We elected you to take those decisions”. I think that used to great effect. While I personally disagree profoundly they have a point. This is a country that, not so long with him on losing a national veto over key areas ago, had no democratic institutions at all. It had no outlined in the Bill being regarded as of “fundamental means by which people could express their opinions; constitutional importance”—I think they should be—none they have them now. What is their reaction to the the less, I take issue with the noble Lord for the way in massive referendums to which they are subjected? which he has clipped the important statements made They say, “That is not the way we want to be governed. by the Constitution Committee in its report on We did not give up the yoke of communism to be referendums in the UK. The report goes on to say: governed in this way”. Perhaps occasionally it is a good idea to listen to small countries. “There are difficulties in defining what constitutes a ‘fundamental constitutional issue’. Although some constitutional issues clearly are of fundamental importance, and others not, there is a grey Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, of all the area where the importance of issues is a matter of political people have spoken in this debate, the noble Lord, judgment”. Lord Hannay, has the greatest practical experience, 757 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 758 since he has had the responsibility of seeking to negotiate influence the EU in the right way because it is such a on the international plane in Europe and elsewhere. If vital element in the modern world, where in so many he cannot persuade the House, nobody can. In supporting contexts we cannot possibly achieve our national purposes this amendment and therefore, I am afraid, not acting acting on a purely national basis. We need to form an in accordance with the wishes of the Government, I effective, cohesive bloc with our European partners agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and argue with them in the relevant international fora. has said. What does one make of this argument that the As somebody who, as I have said on previous Government keep on coming up with—the noble Lord, occasions, takes his holidays in Ireland and has seen Lord Wallace, repeated it this afternoon—that this what has happened in the Irish referendum, I think extremely obstructionist concept of having referenda that the good thing about this amendment is that it on all those subjects is somehow indispensable in places us in roughly the same position as the Irish. better communicating to the British public the virtues They have referenda only according to constitutional and merits of our membership of the European Union? criteria such as those in this amendment, so the Irish The noble Lord’s argument really does not have any Government are not fettered with the inflexible overreach conviction at all; it does not ring genuine or true. of the Bill as it otherwise stands. Therefore it seems to Anybody who knows the first thing about marketing me that this amendment has the merit of Parliament knows that if you want to sell something, the one authorising the Minister to exercise her or his discretion thing you can never do is be negative about it. If you in the particular case using a criterion that is well want to sell it at all, you have to sell it with enthusiasm understood and doing so under the authority of and genuine conviction. Once you start saying, “Well, Parliament. this is a problem so we need to apply brakes and think ‘Otherwise, what we will really be seeking to do is to of new blockages”, and so forth, you have lost it fetter decision-making by future Governments and completely. The noble Lord was a very distinguished Parliaments, even though that would be most unwise. I professor of international relations but if he had chosen was once induced by the whipping arrangements to a marketing career, he would have been an absolute stand on my head and to vote against my own amendment. disaster. He would never have sold a single car or tube I then made it clear that I would not make an idiot of of toothpaste on the basis of the approach which he myself again in that way, and I do not propose to do outlined this afternoon. so today either. Our enacting this Bill will have two effects. One is that there will be substantive damage done to the Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, this is a very interests of this country in specific areas. In an amendment revealing debate. The Government have behaved rather on Report, I raised the issue of a single market in the dismissively towards this House. The noble Lord, Lord defence industry. That is quite clearly in our national Howell, has said, rather pro forma, that the Government interests, but we would not now be able to agree to it have carefully considered our arguments. In actual unless we had a referendum. I went through that and fact, there has been no attempt whatever to come even explained that we really would shoot ourselves in the 5 per cent of the way to meet us. I hope that, as a foot—that was the expression I used—if we went result, your Lordships will have the courage of their ahead with that. The Government did not seriously convictions and continue to stand by the principles we argue against that case at all. They simply said, “Sorry, voted on previously. I particularly support this new we are embarked upon this course and there may be a amendment, brought forward by my noble friend Lord few things to be thought of”. The noble Lord, Lord Triesman and so ably and vigorously argued by my Howell, was nice enough to say that I may have some noble friend Lord Liddle. arguments there but that they would carry on I said that it has been a revealing debate. I thought regardless—that was more or less the response I had. that the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell—the only Let me give another case, because it is important to Conservative to have taken part in this debate, so far at look at specific, concrete cases where it may be in the least—really gave the game away. He entirely supported national interest to transfer powers or competences to the point I have been making all along: that no the institutions of the European Union, particularly Government have a referendum voluntarily at all. If the Commission. A few years ago the Commission they can possibly avoid it, no Government ever have a made a proposal that it should have the right to audit referendum; that is exactly what the noble Lord said and monitor the accounts of member states. That was and exactly what I have been saying. That means that opposed by a number of member states, including the apparent intention to have referenda on any or all ourselves and the Germans, and it did not go through. of the 56 subjects in the Bill is entirely hypocritical. Had it been able to go through on a qualified majority There is no such intention whatever. We all know that voting basis then we would have had the Commission it would be quite absurd to have a referendum on monitoring the national accounts of Greece. The scandals almost all of them—on 50, at least, out of the 56. The and mistakes that have occurred with devastating British public would think it a ludicrous waste of time consequences—going into tens of billions of euros, as and money, and they would be completely right. we all know, and the threat of a banking crisis which The intention is really entirely obstructionist, which undoubtedly will affect us if it arises, and so forth—would is what I am so worried about. It sends the worst have been avoided, because somebody else would have possible signal to our partners in the European Union. been able to go through those accounts. The European Indeed, it presages a period of great difficulty for us in Commission would have been able to do so. Of course our relations with our EU partners and our ability to all the Eurosceptics in this Chamber and in the other positively influence the EU. It is so important that we place would have said, Oh, this is a terrible thing 759 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 760

[LORD DAVIES OF STAMFORD] taken. A breach was made, 25 years ago, 35 years ago because it is somehow another integrationist step forward”, or more, but one breach and one breach only. This but it would have been enormously in our national legislation changes the balance dramatically by making interest. referenda, instead of extremely rare, things which could be extremely common. 6pm The amendments that were passed by this House Such occasions can easily occur in the future. We all mitigate what I consider the damage to the British know that we cannot predict the crises and challenges constitution a small degree. The question is, are we of next year or even six months hence, let alone five or persuaded by the arguments put forward in the other 10 years hence, but we are now denying ourselves place that the mitigation that we introduced is something definitively an effective possible weapon to deal with which we should no longer support? I am not so such challenges and crises. That is the effect of the persuaded, because the amendments that we put forward Bill. I totally agree with the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell: were quite modest, still leaving a Bill which breached—in there ain’t going to be no referenda on this Bill. We all my view unnecessarily and undesirably—the principle know that was complete rubbish. What this Bill is of parliamentary government, but they were mitigatory actually doing is enacting a complete blockage so far amendments and therefore we supported them in this as we are concerned. House, and we passed them in this House. Nothing The second consequence of this, of course, is that it that was said in the other House persuades me that we will give a great boost to the enhanced co-operation were wrong to do so, because the balance of the agenda in the EU. Our partners will know in advance constitution in which a referendum is a rare instrument, that there is no point in bringing the Brits into the applied only in exceptional circumstances, is one which discussion—because they are paralysed; because they I continue to support. I am not persuaded by the have got to say no; because no Minister could possibly arguments put forward in the other House that the even say yes subject to a referendum, because no modest amendments that we put forward, which would Government are ever going to want the referendum. reduce the plethora of amendments and other referenda Therefore they will not want the Brits in the room from a flood to a trickle, were undesirable. I was from the beginning: that is quite clear. So, they will say persuaded last time we discussed this that they were we have got to make progress on this, we have got to desirable, and I remain of that view now. take a decision on this, we have to do it ourselves, under the enhanced co-operation procedure—which is Lord Pannick: My Lords, I too support this now of course available under the treaty. We are going amendment, because I see it as a considered response to give a tremendous boost to that. This means, of to the views of the other place. It supplies a criterion course, that we will not be present at that discussion. which identifies when it is appropriate for a referendum We all know that the European Union is a horse-trading to be held. Since mention has been made of the views organisation, and agreements are often in terms of of the Constitution Committee of your Lordships’ packages—a perfectly natural thing in human affairs. House, of which I am a member, I will remind your If we are not part of the discussion in one particular Lordships of the three points that the committee area, it may make it much more difficult for us to do made in its report on this Bill. an advantageous bargain or deal in another context which is very important for us. We are going to be First, we noted that in our earlier report on the use steadily and progressively left out of the mechanism of of referendums, we concluded that if referendums are decision-taking in the European Union. That is a very to be used they should be confined to fundamental serious prospect and we are bringing it not only closer constitutional issues. Secondly, we noted that this but so close that it is a damned racing certainty if we Government had expressed agreement with that criterion enact this Bill in its present form. in the context of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act. Thirdly, we concluded that it could not be said that every treaty change which would, Lord Brittan of Spennithorne: My Lords, at this under this Bill, require a referendum, would involve a stage in our proceedings we have to do two things. fundamental constitutional issue. First, we have to decide whether we are persuaded by the arguments put forward in the other place that what My answer to the point made by the noble Lord, we have decided here should not stand up. Secondly, Lord Blackwell, is that I understand this amendment we have to decide, if we are not persuaded, whether we to impose a duty on the Minister in good faith to stand by what we have done or whether we acquiesce consider whether the issue is one of economic or in what the other House has decided. constitutional significance, and if so to lay a Statement before Parliament. I do not accept that this leaves My fundamental objection to this Bill and my matters entirely to political judgment: it imposes a support for the amendments that we passed is based criterion, it is a considered response to the Commons on a view which has not much to do with European view, and I hope we will support the amendment affairs at all, but a great deal to do with the British today. constitution. Up to now, we have had a constitution in which the referendum, until modern times, had no role whatever. We had sufficient confidence in parliamentary Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, I support the government to believe that the representatives of the amendment. The main consideration is that if the people should be responsive to the people but not Government do not relent on this question they will slaves to the momentary wishes of the people, and that be in denial on issues to do with the workability of the that was the right way in which decisions should be scheme. I will give some examples. 761 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 762

First, it is proposed that these referenda be mandatory would be in an infinitely worse position. As regards on the Government. Secondly, it was said by the noble tax, is not the example of California, which is now a Lord in a previous session that it might be rather bankrupt state, a very good reason for not allowing inconvenient if there were a whole string of different the spread of referenda? referendums and so they could be grouped together in some way for the purpose of having them on a certain date. The issue of EU energy taxation being extended 6.15 pm or some other legal question on an industrial matter Lord Deben: My Lords, my problem with this might be put together for the purpose of the referendum amendment is that it seems to me to meet precisely day. This taxes the imagination. I have tried to imagine what the Government want. The Government have that I am sitting listening to a conversation in a pub in been arguing that this clause would apply only to Burton-on-Trent. After all, this is the demotic that we matters of constitutional value and that those who are all being asked to say is so much more important have worried about various aspects of it are worrying than parliamentary democracy. So, I am sitting in a unnecessarily. We now have an amendment which pub in Burton-on-Trent, and after a discussion on specifically says that the Minister must say publicly what is running in the 2.30 at Newmarket, Fred says to that the referendum concerns a matter of constitutional his mate Alec, “What are you doing on this thing that or economic importance. That seems to me not an they want us to vote on tomorrow?”. “No idea, Fred, unreasonable thing to do when it is precisely what the it’s all Greek to me”, replies Alec. Government say this clause is meant to do. Although I How do we know that the people want all these do not believe in referenda in any circumstances, I am referendums? How much time would elapse in Brussels not approaching this from that point of view. Frankly, if we simply, as the awkward squad, sat for several I am trying to help the Government because it seems months on a whole string of items until the famous to me that they have not convinced all of us that their day when they could be brought together? That looks explanation of this clause is precisely right. so totally unreasonable that people in Europe—they My noble friend Lord Blackwell is entirely wrong: are friends of ours, presumably; we are in a Community— this is not a wrecking amendment—unless the might say, “If you are a member of a club, you ought Government’s proposal is a wrecking amendment—in to be more co-operative than that. If you carry on as fact, it enhances what the Government have asked for. you are, you might as well get out”. If we held a Your Lordships should say to yourselves, “Whether referendum on staying in or getting out, I am pretty we are Eurosceptics or enthusiasts for Europe”—as I confident that the staying in vote would win. There am—“whatever our view may be, it is not unreasonable might be consensus on that, but it is not the subject of to say that referenda should be held on matters of this amendment. This is a vicious circle. If you want to considerable importance, not ones which are not of be a member of a club, you have to co-operate. If I considerable importance”. It is not unreasonable to carried on like this in my tennis club, it might be put that in the Bill. suggested that I joined another club more suited to my As regards the way in which we have approached temperament. The Government do not have the candour this, I believe that there are real issues for our stance in to say what they want to do because I do not think the European Union. Those who are Eurosceptic ought that some of their members would agree with that to be just as concerned as those of us who are of a position. However, they want to go as near as they can different opinion, because unless we are able to argue to implying what they want to do. about minor matters with the freedom which a In practice, this amendment meets the test set by representative Government have, we will do ourselves the Constitution Committee. I think that there is down on many of the issues that have been raised. If consensus in the House on it. this amendment merely allows for that freedom, it is important and valuable and certainly does not in any Lord Taverne: My Lords, I will be very brief. I do way wreck the proposal. not think that it can be disputed that the Bill in its There is truth in the argument that says that we present form makes it infinitely more difficult to stick should watch any constitutional change of this magnitude to the constitutional principle announced by the Scrutiny with great care. I say to the noble Baroness behind me Committee that referenda should be restricted to matters who spoke on the Liberal Democrat position that the of fundamental constitutional significance. Why would more she read what the Constitution Committee of a spread of more plebiscites be so dangerous? It is this House said, the more she made the case for the because the system of parliamentary government has amendment, because the Constitution Committee said been far superior in preserving certain rights, particularly that if you are going to have referenda, you should minority rights, than would be the case with referenda make sure that they are on serious matters. Sometimes and plebiscites. For example, one can imagine the it is difficult to decide what are serious matters. We populist propaganda that would pour out further to have produced an amendment which says to the Minister, restrict asylum seekers and make this a less civilised “You have to make up your mind, you have to agree to country. That would apply also to those suspected of it and you have to say that publicly”. After all, most of committing terrorist offences. We have heard some our Bills have a statement on the front that the relevant examples of that. However, this goes beyond minority Minister knows that it accords with human rights. It is rights and individual rights. What about protectionism? not unreasonable to ask Ministers to make that choice. “British jobs for British people” was Mr Brown’s ill I think that is what the Government want. Why, advised slogan. If protectionism had spread throughout therefore, have they not accepted this amendment, or Europe or throughout the world after the crash, we something like it? 763 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 764

[LORD DEBEN] Lord Lea of Crondall: The noble Lord spent many I end with a plea to my noble friend. He knows that years in the House of Commons. Is it not the position many of us are not entirely happy with the logic of that the Labour Party was looking at the Bill, as saying that we have to have all this in order to reconnect amended by the House of Lords, and that it was not with the public. Could he not move towards us just a incumbent on the Labour Party to do anything along little and be prepared to put in the Bill what he has the lines he suggests? told us is actually there? That would make us feel that the Government had listened to us and that there was Lord Stoddart of Swindon: It was not incumbent on a two-way discussion on this. If he does not do that, I the Labour Party to do so, but it had the opportunity am afraid that I cannot even begin to reach out to the to do so and did not. If it believed, as the noble Lord, concept that this Bill enhances our relationships and I Lord Liddle, said when he moved his amendment, that shall begin to recede into a position of wondering this should be its policy, why did Members not do it whether it is not intended to make people like my when they had the opportunity in the House of noble friend happier. I am not sure that that is what we Commons? That is the question that has to be answered. should be debating. I assure the noble Lord that I know the procedures in the House of Commons. I was a Whip in the House of Lord Flight: My Lords, does the Minister agree that Commons and I have sat on a number of committees certain noble Lords are perhaps a bit out of touch dealing with amendments that have come from the with British public opinion? It is clear that the British House of Lords. The House of Commons was perfectly public are against Governments surrendering any further entitled to move an amendment but it did not do so. sovereignty to the EU without the consent of the people. That was very much reflected in the attitude Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords— taken to the previous Government’s signing up to Lisbon, having promised a referendum and then having Noble Lords: No! ratted on it. The whole point of the Bill, clumsy though it may be, is to provide a deterrent to stop Governments of any political hue giving away yet Lord Lea of Crondall: I am going to put the matter more sovereignty, and the British people not having a right for the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. It was a Bill say in that. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, gave the that had been amended in this House, which is what game away. He was arguing that he wanted a situation the House of Commons was considering. where Governments could fudge it and give away a bit more sovereignty and was very unhappy that they Lord Stoddart of Swindon: The House of Commons might be deterred from doing that through fear of is entitled to amend amendments that we have made in losing a referendum. The whole point of the Bill is to this House, but did not do so. The Labour Party did provide an effective deterrent to Governments giving not do so because it did not want people outside to get away sovereignty. This amendment would weaken that the impression that it was against consulting them principle. about losing further powers to the European Union. That is the real reason behind it. Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I took part in virtually I know that the House wants to get on, but I just all the debates that we have had so far on this Bill, and want to say that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, referred it seems to me that the amendment would be a wrecking to Greece. Of course, it is very clever to do that amendment. I understand that the Government and because we know the appalling state that the eurozone the coalition brought forward the Bill after long is in at present. He made the reasonable point that if it consideration and to provide assurance to the British were a unitary state the Commission would have examined people before they surrendered any powers—powers the accounts of the Greek Government. It had the of the people and powers of this Parliament, if we are opportunity to do so before Greece was admitted to talking about parliamentary democracy—to the the eurozone, but it did not do it because it was a institutions of the European Union. Indeed, we had politically driven decision. It wanted as many countries long discussions about these provisions, and after in the eurozone as possible, whether they were broke hearing all the debates I believe that the Government or, like Germany, prosperous. We should be very careful were right to try to get it through this House. when using the present crisis to undermine the Bill. I Unfortunately, they did not do so. would like it to go further but it is the best we are The Bill went to the House of Commons and I have going to have, and I hope that the House will not insist read the debates. The Labour Party did not oppose on the amendments on this occasion. these clauses in any reasonable way and did not support Amendments 6 to 13. There was very little discussion Lord Lamont of Lerwick: My Lords, I had not on them, as a matter of fact. If it was Labour Party intended to speak in this debate and I will be extremely policy, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, assured us brief. I rose to speak only because so many of my and as is contained in his amendment, why was it not noble friends have made rather powerful speeches, but moved in the House of Commons? That is where it ones with which I disagree. I take very seriously the should have been done, but it was not done. What is point made about moving too far in favour of plebiscitary the gain? If the Labour Party believes in restricting democracy. One has to agree that that is a real danger. the effect of Clause 6, why did it not try to do that Balanced against that has to be the fact that the in the elected House? In the circumstances, this seeping away of the power of Parliament to the European House ought to take note of what the other place has Union is also an extremely serious issue. I agree in done. general that referendums should be held largely on 765 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 766 constitutional issues because they are a good way of going to disagree with it, perhaps he should think settling how we live with each other and how we are carefully about whether it should be advanced at all. governed. Therefore, although I agree with the general proposition We had quotations from the side opposite and from that we do not want to go down the road of having a Cross-Benchers in earlier debates from Edmund Burke massive extension of plebiscitary democracy, I do not and the judgment of members of the legislature. One think that that will be the consequence of the Bill. might quote back at them Tom Paine, who argued that That assertion has been repeated many times, but the constitutions belong to the people: that it is not for argument is not convincing and I urge my noble friend politicians to decide the rules by which government is to support the Government on this. conducted—sovereignty comes from the people. While I think that referendums should be on constitutional Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I hope that I issues—important constitutional issues, as has been will be forgiven if I say that I have a faint feeling of said—the totality of our relationship with Europe is a having been here before—and forgiven also for not huge constitutional issue. It is therefore right that responding to every strongly held view and argument referendums should play a part in that. put forward in this debate that was put forward again That poses the question: is it right that we should and again in the past. The Government and I regard have in this Bill so many different powers and so many some of these arguments as deeply flawed and consider different issues all rolled into one that might, as has that they do not understand or come to grips with the been said, give rise to a flood of referendums on trivial realities of political life today, either here or in the rest issues? I do not believe that that will be the consequence of the European Union. I will also deal briefly, as is of this Bill. That has been said before in our proceedings the custom, with the Motion—it is not the custom to on the Bill, so I shall not go on about it at any great make long second speeches on a Motion—and with length. I will say, however, that that will not happen the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, because: first, these measures are likely to come in which goes very much further than anything standing packages; and, secondly, there are reserve powers— against the Government’s Motion that the amendments reserved to the nation state and left out of the previous be resisted. treaties of Lisbon, Nice and Maastricht—because On the decisions involved in Clause 6, none is in the individual countries in the past have wanted to preserve grey or insignificant category. They are all there for them, and not necessarily Britain. There are other very strongly established reasons that are largely supported countries in the European Union, and one can look by many other countries. Many vetoes are maintained through the minutes of the constitutional convention because the signatories to the Lisbon treaty did not leading up to the Lisbon treaty to see how some other want them to go into the QMV category. They are countries in the past have argued for the veto to be there because their use could only ever provide for a preserved in certain areas. This is not just at the transfer of competence and power from the UK to the insistence of British politicians. European Union—for reasons that we have explained from this Dispatch Box and that many of my noble 6.30 pm friends have explained again and again—and so should be subject to the referendum requirement. Baroness Quin: The noble Lord said that he could foresee referendums dealing with issues in packages. It is difficult to accept that any of the decisions in In those circumstances, how are people who agree with Clause 6 would not be significant in constitutional or one issue but disagree with another supposed to vote? economic terms. Those who say that it stretches their imagination to understand the significance of the measures listed in Clause 6, or Schedule 1, which Lord Lamont of Lerwick: That question was raised springs from it, surprise me. Surely a decision on by the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, earlier in the debate. whether to give up our vetoes on, for instance, the The answer is: just as they vote in elections. They have multiannual financial framework, border controls or to decide on five or six issues in an election. In the joining the single currency—I refer now to the amendment past, there were referendums in other countries on of the noble Lords, Lord Liddle and Lord Triesman, treaties in which they had to decide on a series of not to the main one that accepts them—would all fall, questions raised by those treaties. I repeat my point under Amendment 13B, into the bracket of something that where a veto exists, it is not necessarily just at that had to be judged according to whether or not it Britain’s insistence but because other countries, too, was significant. This is a completely unnecessary process. wanted it. Clearly they are of the most profound significance. Thirdly, I think we will have referendums only I know that the shadow Minister for Europe said where a British Minister agrees with the proposition on Monday that he considered other items in Clause 6 that will be put to the people of this country, and to be not so important. He exempted the important where the Government believe that they can win the three—border controls, the European currency and referendum. For that reason, and with great respect, I one other—but dismissed the others as paperclips and do not agree with the point made by the noble Lord, minutiae. We do not accept that analysis. We firmly Lord Hannay, that our flexibility in negotiations will believe that the other issues are also of great significance be impeded because a certain area is covered by the and, when understood in terms of their impact on possibility of a referendum being held on it. If a jobs, work and the processes by which our law system Minister wishes to argue in favour of something, operates, certainly could be subjects of conversation presumably he is confident that he can sell it to the in the pub in Burton-on-Trent, where the noble Lord, public. If he cannot sell it to the public, and they are Lord Lea, has been listening to conversations. 767 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 768

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] antagonism—the turn-off, if you like, of popular support On the European public prosecutor, I know that it for the European Union and for Ministers’ actions. is regarded by some of my noble friends, and by some The ministerial discretion that some of my noble noble Lords opposite, as not being of constitutional friends and noble Lords call for has become the ministerial or economic significance. However, it is because it indiscretion and undermining of trust and support for involves affording a supranational body the ability to the European Union that we are trying to correct. prosecute citizens of this country within the scope of its own criminal justice system in respect of alleged Lord Goodhart: Would my noble friend accept that crimes affecting the EU’s financial interests. Someone it is impossible for a court to make decisions on what must decide what that financial interest is and whether is done in the Houses of Parliament? If the Minister the crime has been committed. Is that a paperclip or declares, therefore, that he believes something to be—or minutiae issue? not to be—a matter of importance, it is not a matter What about the vetoes listed in Schedule 1? Why are that could then go to the courts. It would be settled by they not significant when they all relate—that is why the House itself. they are there—to the red lines adopted by successive Lord Howell of Guildford: Ministerial decisions are Governments, fought for very hard by the previous open to judicial review. That is not a matter that we Government and sustained by this Government, covering discussed much in Committee or one that we would foreign affairs, security and defence policy, economic necessarily want to see operate very fully in this or any and tax policy, including issues of the EU’s budget, other area of ministerial decisions on any aspect of which all of us admit is a red-hot issue, social security, policy. However, judicial review is there and ministerial employment policy, justice and home affairs policy, decisions can be challenged. and citizenship and elections? Are these all minutiae, The House of Commons has twice approved the paperclip decisions and things that are never discussed scope and operation of Clause 6 following a clear in any pub? I have to ask where some of my noble exposition from the shadow Europe minister and his friends, and some noble Lords, have been if they think views on party policy on Amendments 6 to 13. that these matters are of no significance, because they include not only domestic issues, where after all Parliament I do not want to take further time meeting the can make and unmake laws, but transfers of power, marginalisation argument. Frankly, it is a chestnut, as sovereignty and competence that would almost certainly there is absolutely no impact on Ministers’ discretion be irrevocable—in fact, they would be irrevocable. and flexibility merely because they have sanctions behind them. Most European member states’ Ministers The amendment before us would, for instance, allow have sanctions of various sorts lying behind them on the British Government to relinquish their veto over the decisions that they reach. decisions relating to the multiannual financial framework The plebiscitary democracy issue, frankly, belongs without first getting the consent of the British people. to the pre-internet age, before the web and the internet That is a hugely important decision that Members in system. We see all around the world the wider public’s the other place were particularly concerned with, and insistence on having a say where major issues about rightly so. The Minister for Europe rightly pointed out the transfers of power and competence away from that the forthcoming decision on that framework will their sovereign control are involved. That is exactly in effect set budgetary decisions and ceilings for the what would happen here. The idea that there would be next five to seven years of the EU’s life and development. 56 different referenda coming along is pure fantasy Are these minutiae, paperclip decisions or matters that and does not relate to the actual way in which these people will not understand? I ask my noble friends issues would arise. There would be no great frequency and noble Lords who think that these matters are of referenda; this is not the pattern for the future. It insignificant to think again. Their significance is obvious. will not be the result of this Bill and it certainly would It is vital that these matters remain subject to not be the outcome of the way in which the European unanimity and that whichever British Government are Union has operated, is operating, or is likely to operate in office—this matter should be above party—continue in the future. It is not in the interests of the 27—maybe to have the right of veto. Similar views are taken in soon 28—members to proceed in that way. almost every other country in the European Union. I think that the noble Lord would be wise to accept We all know what happens when one gets casual about the Motion and the view taken in the other place. He the veto and lets it go. This was the case in the would be wise to reject the amendment and therefore I surrender of the veto on Article 122 of the TFEU, ask him to withdraw it and accept the Motion so ably which opened the way to fearsome, huge and titanic moved by my noble friend. new financial commitments to the funding of Europe in its present financial difficulties. Lord Liddle: My Lords, we have had a full debate, The amendment before us would reduce precisely and I do not want to take up the time of the House. I the clarity that we all seek. It would also risk the just want to make one comment on what the Minister possibility of judicial review on a decision by the has said. As you know, I believe in the noble Lord’s Minister not to consider one of these clear-cut decisions integrity in putting this Bill forward. I do not believe to be significant. The so-called pragmatic flexibility he is putting it forward for anti-European reasons. I that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, keeps reminding us do not think that that is what he thinks, but the truth is about and seeks could well be impeded by his own that the list of referendum locks contained in this Bill amendment. He would end up in a quagmire of pragmatic far exceed any reasonable person’s definition of issues flexibility of his own making. It was too much of this of fundamental constitutional significance. On that pragmatic flexibility approach in the past that caused basis, I would like to test the opinion of the House. 769 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 770

6.44 pm Mandelson, L. Smith of Leigh, L. Massey of Darwen, B. Snape, L. Division on Motion B1 Maxton, L. Soley, L. Meacher, B. Steel of Aikwood, L. Monks, L. Stern, B. Contents 210; Not-Contents 244. Moonie, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Stirrup, L. Motion B1 disagreed. Morgan of Huyton, B. Stone of Blackheath, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Sutherland of Houndwood, L. Nye, B. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Division No. 1 Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. Taverne, L. O’Loan, B. CONTENTS O’Neill of Bengarve, B. Taylor of Blackburn, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Adams of Craigielea, B. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Temple-Morris, L. Adonis, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Pannick, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. Thornton, B. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Grantchester, L. Tomlinson, L. Armstrong of Ilminster, L. Grenfell, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Tonge, B. Bach, L. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Pendry, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Pitkeathley, B. Touhig, L. [Teller] Hanworth, V. Plant of Highfield, L. Triesman, L. Beecham, L. Harris of Haringey, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Berkeley, L. Harrison, L. Prashar, B. Turnberg, L. Best, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Prosser, B. Turner of Camden, B. Bhattacharyya, L. Haskel, L. Quin, B. Wall of New Barnet, B. Bilston, L. Hattersley, L. Radice, L. Walpole, L. Blackstone, B. Haworth, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Walton of Detchant, L. Blood, B. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Reid of Cardowan, L. Warner, L. Borrie, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Rendell of Babergh, B. Warnock, B. Boyd of Duncansby, L. Henig, B. Richard, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Brennan, L. Hennessy of Nympsfield, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Rooker, L. West of Spithead, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Hollick, L. Rosser, L. Wheeler, B. Brookman, L. Hollins, B. Rowlands, L. Whitaker, B. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Whitty, L. Browne of Ladyton, L. Howarth of Breckland, B. St John of Bletso, L. Wilkins, B. Burns, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Sawyer, L. Williams of Crosby, B. Butler of Brockwell, L. Howe of Idlicote, B. Scotland of Asthal, B. Williamson of Horton, L. Campbell-Savours, L. Howells of St Davids, B. Sewel, L. Wills, L. Carter of Coles, L. Howie of Troon, L. Sherlock, B. Wood of Anfield, L. Christopher, L. Hoyle, L. Simon, V. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Clancarty, E. Hughes of Stretford, B. Smith of Basildon, B. Young of Hornsey, B. Clarke of Hampstead, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Young of Norwood Green, L. Clinton-Davis, L. Hunt of Chesterton, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. NOT CONTENTS Condon, L. Hylton, L. Corbett of Castle Vale, L. Irvine of Lairg, L. Aberdare, L. Byford, B. Craig of Radley, L. Jones, L. Addington, L. Caithness, E. Crawley, B. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Carlile of Berriew, L. Cunningham of Felling, L. Judd, L. Alderdice, L. Carrington, L. Davies of Coity, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Alliance, L. Cathcart, E. Davies of Oldham, L. King of West Bromwich, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Chadlington, L. Davies of Stamford, L. Kingsmill, B. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Chester, Bp. Deben, L. Kinnock, L. Hamdon, L. Chidgey, L. Desai, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Astor, V. Clement-Jones, L. Dixon, L. Kirkhill, L. Astor of Hever, L. Colwyn, L. Donoughue, L. Layard, L. Attlee, E. Cope of Berkeley, L. Drayson, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Avebury, L. Cormack, L. D’Souza, B. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Cotter, L. Dubs, L. Levy, L. Bannside, L. Courtown, E. Dykes, L. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Barker, B. Craigavon, V. Elder, L. Liddle, L. Bell, L. Crickhowell, L. Evans of Parkside, L. Lipsey, L. Benjamin, B. Cumberlege, B. Falkender, B. Lister of Burtersett, B. Berridge, B. De Mauley, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. Bew, L. Dear, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Low of Dalston, L. Black of Brentwood, L. Denham, L. Fellowes, L. Luce, L. Blackwell, L. Dholakia, L. Filkin, L. McAvoy, L. Blencathra, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Dobbs, L. Ford, B. L. B. Doocey, B. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. McDonagh, B. Boswell of Aynho, L. Dundee, E. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. McFall of Alcluith, L. Bridgeman, V. Eaton, B. Gale, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Brinton, B. Eccles, V. Garel-Jones, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Eccles of Moulton, B. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L. Eden of Winton, L. Giddens, L. L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Elton, L. Glasman, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Browning, B. Empey, L. Golding, B. Maclennan of Rogart, L. Burnett, L. Falkner of Margravine, B. Goodhart, L. Mallalieu, B. Buscombe, B. Faulks, L. 771 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 772

Fearn, L. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Thomas of Swynnerton, L. Waldegrave of North Hill, L. Feldman, L. Maddock, B. Thomas of Winchester, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Feldman of Elstree, L. Magan of Castletown, L. Tope, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Fellowes of West Stafford, L. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Trefgarne, L. Walmsley, B. Fink, L. Mancroft, L. Trimble, L. Warsi, B. Flight, L. Mar and Kellie, E. True, L. Wasserman, L. Fookes, B. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Trumpington, B. Wei, L. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. L. Tyler, L. Wheatcroft, B. Fowler, L. Marland, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Wilcox, B. Framlingham, L. Marlesford, L. Ullswater, V. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Vallance of Tummel, L. Willoughby de Broke, L. Freeman, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Verma, B. Wolfson of Aspley Guise, L. Freud, L. Methuen, L. Waddington, L. Wolfson of Sunningdale, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Montrose, D. Wade of Chorlton, L. Young of Graffham, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Wakeham, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Gardner of Parkes, B. Moynihan, L. Geddes, L. Naseby, L. Motion B agreed. German, L. Neill of Bladen, L. Glasgow, E. Newby, L. 6.58 pm Glenarthur, L. Newton of Braintree, L. Glendonbrook, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Glentoran, L. B. Motion C Gold, L. Noakes, B. Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Goodlad, L. Northover, B. Goschen, V. Norton of Louth, L. That this House do agree to Commons Grade of Yarmouth, L. O’Cathain, B. Amendments 14A and 14B to Lords Amendment 14. Greaves, L. Paisley of St George’s, B. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. 14A: Line 3, leave out from beginning to “directly”. Greenway, L. Parminter, B. 14B: Line 7, at end insert “only by virtue of that Act or Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Patel, L. where it is required to be recognised and available in law Hamwee, B. Patten, L. by virtue of any other Act”. Hanham, B. Perry of Southwark, B. Harris of Peckham, L. Plumb, L. The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace Harris of Richmond, B. Powell of Bayswater, L. of Tankerness): My Lords, we have had a number of Henley, L. Ramsbotham, L. Heyhoe Flint, B. Rana, L. interesting debates on Clause 18 at every stage in your Higgins, L. Randerson, B. Lordships’ House and in the other place. We have Hill of Oareford, L. Rawlings, B. heard from those who sought to ensure that the clause Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Razzall, L. was more than declaratory and from those who expressed L. Reay, L. concern that Clause 18 might somehow affect our Home, E. Redesdale, L. Howard of Rising, L. Ribeiro, L. obligations as a member state. As my noble friends Howe, E. Risby, L. Lord Howell and Lord Wallace of Saltaire have said, Howell of Guildford, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. and I have made clear, that is not the case. I hope we Hunt of Wirral, L. Rogan, L. have assured your Lordships’ House very effectively Hussain, L. Rotherwick, L. that this clause is declaratory and is intended to be Hussein-Ece, B. Rowe-Beddoe, L. James of Blackheath, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. declaratory. It underlines the existing legal position Jenkin of Kennington, B. Sanderson of Bowden, L. and confirms how directly effective and directly applicable Jenkin of Roding, L. Sassoon, L. European Union law takes effect in the United Kingdom, Jones of Cheltenham, L. Scott of Foscote, L. no more and no less. It will certainly not change in any Kakkar, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. way the constructive activist/pragmatist approach that Kilclooney, L. Seccombe, B. King of Bridgwater, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. this Government have and will continue to pursue in Kirkham, L. Selsdon, L. our engagement with our European Union partners Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Sharkey, L. on the priorities that matter to the people of this Knight of Collingtree, B. Sharman, L. country. Kramer, B. Sharp of Guildford, B. Although the clause is declaratory, we believe it Laird, L. Sharples, B. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Shaw of Northstead, L. serves an important and valuable purpose. I echo the Lang of Monkton, L. Sheikh, L. words of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Lawson of Blaby, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. Clashfern who said on Report: Leach of Fairford, L. Shipley, L. “It is important that this declaratory measure should be made Lee of Trafford, L. Shrewsbury, E. because of the theory sometimes propounded that Community Lexden, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] law in the United Kingdom derives from the treaty alone by virtue Lindsay, E. Slim, V. of the European Union legal order. I believe that it is right that we Lingfield, L. Smith of Clifton, L. should make it plain at this juncture that that is not so”.—[Official Linklater of Butterstone, B. Spicer, L. Report, 15/6/11; col. 790.] Loomba, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Lothian, M. Stewartby, L. I welcome the acceptance by your Lordships’ House Lucas, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. and the other place of the principle underlying Clause 18. Luke, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. What we have before us, as we did on Report, is the Lyell, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. question as to how we apply that clause and whether McColl of Dulwich, L. Strathclyde, L. the 1972 Act should be the only Act which is to be Macdonald of River Glaven, Swinfen, L. L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. covered by Clause 18. In this, I fully recognise the MacGregor of Pulham Tebbit, L. reasoning behind the approval which your Lordships Market, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. gave to the amendment on Report. 773 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 774

The aim in doing so was quite rightly to make the I therefore beg to move that this House acknowledges clause as specific and clear as possible, an aim which is the considerable support of the other House for these wholeheartedly one which one could support. But, as I two amendments to the amendment that was proposed have already said, I recognise the concerns expressed by this House. I ask your Lordships to support these by noble Lords that Clause 18 should make more amendments today. I beg to move. specific reference to the European Communities Act 1972. When we debated this on Report, I made it clear that Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, as the one who the reason we could not accept the amendment was took the main argument on Clause 18 on Report with an because we were of the firm belief that a number of amendment which was carried by quite a reasonable other Acts of Parliament also give effect to directly majority in your Lordships’House, I am happy to assure effective and directly applicable European Union law your Lordships that this debate need not be anything like independently of the 1972 Act. Therefore, to accept a as long as the previous one because I am entirely happy provision that referenced the 1972 Act alone would be with the proposed amendments and the resulting Clause 18. to accept a change in the existing legal position, which The amendments restrict the matter to directly could go beyond what we had always intended. applicable and directly effective EU law. We are not Although the European Communities Act 1972 is the concerned with other Acts which introduce EU law principal means by which directly effective and directly directly—for example, where it uses a particular provision applicable EU law takes effect in the United Kingdom, of EU law to make law in this country. We do not need the amendment agreed by your Lordships’ House could to concern ourselves with that. Originally, in an attempt have created a significant risk that the courts might to meet with the Government, I drafted an amendment interpret the clause as restricting the ability of the which covered that as well as this. But I understand other Acts of Parliament to incorporate directly applicable that it is now agreed that we just need to deal with or directly effective EU law into our United Kingdom law. directly effective and directly applicable EU law. The amendment accepted by your Lordships’ House I am not 110 per cent convinced that there are other also removed the phrase, “It is only” from the clause. Acts which do this but, using the suggestion of my noble This wording is intended to make it explicit that it is friend Lord Flight of the belt and braces, there is no only by virtue of Acts of Parliament that directly harm in adding this because the 1972 Act is now effective and directly applicable EU law takes effect in specifically referred to. There is no doubt in my mind the United Kingdom. Removing this reference leaves that it is the key to this aspect of EU law in this open the possibility of arguments to be made that country. I hope that your Lordships will accept these directly effective and directly applicable EU law could amendments and my gratitude to the Government for enter into United Kingdom law by other means, which their acceptance of the principle of the amendment undermines the very rationale behind the clause. which was accepted here, and for defending me from Nevertheless, we have reflected on the amendment various allegations that were made in the other place and the Government have demonstrated already that about my motivation. we wish to listen to arguments put forward by noble Lords. When there are grounds for a change to be Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, in respect of made, we are prepared to make the change. In doing the amendment that the noble and learned Lord, Lord so, I wish to put on record our gratitude to my noble Mackay of Clashfern, successfully passed in this House, and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, with I agree with him that the clause now before your whom we have discussed in depth possible alternatives Lordships is entirely satisfactory. I just want to say a to his amendment to ensure that any amendment in few of things about it. First, I do not think that lieu addresses his concerns sufficiently. Clause 18 was ever necessary, except in a political sense. Secondly, I do not think that the law was ever The Government subsequently proposed amendments unclear. Thirdly, it is one of the comical aspects of our to your Lordships’ amendment in the other place, unwritten constitution that if you ask a group of which we believe achieves these two objectives. These lawyers or law students the origin of the doctrine of amendments are before us today. It may help your parliamentary sovereignty, they never know the answer. Lordships if I set out how the clause will read if these The answer of course is that it comes from the common two amendments are added: law. That answer is most unwelcome to a certain kind “Directly applicable or directly effective EU law (that is, the of thinker, who thinks, “Oh dear, if it comes from the rights, powers, liabilities, obligations, restrictions, remedies and procedures referred to in section 2(1) of the European Communities common law, the courts might take it away again”. We Act 1972) falls to be recognised and available in law in the United do not have to go into that today. Kingdom only by virtue of that Act or where it is required to be This amendment states the position as has always recognised and available in law by virtue of any other Act”. been made clear in the case law and therefore does no As I have indicated, we are particularly grateful for the harm. I only wish that it had not been necessary in the engagement of my noble and learned friend and for first place. I also wish that the original Explanatory his advice. My understanding is that he is content with Notes that the Government introduced had not been the amendments to his original change. maintained instead of being withdrawn for political I am also pleased to note that the other place voted reasons for another set of Explanatory Notes, all of overwhelmingly in favour of the government amendments which shows the unfortunate aspects of a Bill which is by 485 votes to 22. These amendments were supported a politically cosmetic exercise in this respect. by the Opposition, with the shadow Minister for Europe calling them, Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, I express “a modest improvement to what was suggested by the Lords”.— gratitude to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay [Official Report, Commons, 11/7/11; col. 98.] of Clashfern, for his work on the previous amendment 775 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 776

[LORD HANNAY OF CHISWICK] emphasis. We debated this proposition at considerable and for having set the Government’s feet upon a better length throughout your Lordships’ consideration of path than that which they were on in the original text the legislation. We know there are a number of sunset of the Bill. Like the noble and learned Lord, if he is clauses in a number of pieces of legislation, for the not 110 per cent certain that this is absolutely necessary, most part for specific operational reasons. The Lords who am I to be other than not 110 per cent certain? has expressed concern over the granting of new But I am certainly not arguing against it. extraordinary powers for the Executive, such as in Will the noble and learned Lord the Minister confirm response to the firefighters’ dispute eight years ago. In the Explanatory Notes that were made when the original all these sorts of cases, Parliament has sought to Clause 18 was put forward and confirm that the ensure that these powers were retained for only as long Government stand by these Explanatory Notes now? as was necessary. For the avoidance of all misunderstanding, the Printed With the Bill there has been a rather different line Paper Office handed to me yesterday a copy of the of argument. There are those who have a general Explanatory Notes. I shall make two references. My dislike of the Bill, which they are perfectly entitled to first is: have, and there have been arguments put forward in “This clause does not alter the existing relationship between favour of a sunset clause because, it is claimed, this EU law and UK domestic law; in particular, the principle of the legislation seeks to bind future Parliaments. I repeat primacy of EU law. The principle of the primacy of EU law was established in the jurisprudence of the European Court of Justice what was observed in another place—I perhaps have before the accession of the United Kingdom to the European not comprehended the value of any counterarguments Communities”. to it—that all legislation by a Government can bind The second reference is: future Governments, and maybe the Government of “Thus this clause is declaratory of the existing legal position. the day wish it would. All legislation is reversible. The The rights and obligations assumed by the UK on becoming a need for additional provisions in the Bill seems weak. member of the EU remain intact. Similarly, it does not alter Instead of repeating my arguments, I will simply the competences of the devolved legislatures or the functions of the Ministers in the devolved administrations as conferred by the quote from the European Scrutiny Committee, which relevant UK Act of Parliament”. put the matter very clearly: It would be very helpful if the noble and learned Lord “All Parliaments legislate for the future. Laws passed by one could confirm that those Explanatory Notes, only as Parliament do not contain a sunset clause at the Dissolution. The Explanatory Notes, remain as they were originally real point is whether a government can, in law, make it difficult for a future Parliament to amend or repeal the legislation it has applied to a different Clause 18 from the one that this passed; in our view it cannot. Our conclusion therefore is House is about to accept. straightforward—that an Act of Parliament applies until it is repealed”. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I thank my Again and again there has been the proposition that noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, somehow this type of legislation weakens Parliament, my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill and the but Parliament remains central to the whole pattern of noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for the support that has agreeing by Act of Parliament whether there should been given to these amendments. With regard to the be referenda. The argument for the sunset clause is Explanatory Notes, I can confirm to the noble Lord that each Parliament should be given the chance to and the House that, as is customary, the Government decide whether its sovereignty has been curtailed by will review the Explanatory Notes in their entirety. the Bill. We do not accept that case. As the Minister The notes on this clause will be considered as part of for Europe said in another place: the exercise and we expect that there will have to be “The Bill does not substitute the British people for Parliament, some consequential change to reflect the new wording for Parliament will continue to have a central and strengthened of the clause. But that apart we have reviewed the role”. —[Official Report, Commons, 11/7/11; col. 74.] Explanatory Notes in the light of proposed changes Parliament would have the opportunity on each occasion and consider that the notes, as drafted, accurately to approve a transfer of competence or power and to reflect the purpose and effect of Clause 18. I hope that approve the holding of a referendum. In contrast this that gives the reassurance that the noble Lord is seeking. provision would actually reduce the control that In the belt-and-braces spirit which my noble and Parliament would have on treaty changes and passerelles learned friend mentioned, I hope that the House will until the Government of the day decided whether to support these amendments. revive Part 1 of and Schedule 1 to the Bill. It would Motion agreed. actually have the counter-effect of that, which I believe is the intention of those who put it forward. In any case, we have a system that is designed precisely to Motion D review how all Acts of Parliament are used once they Moved by Lord Howell of Guildford are enacted. The previous Government introduced a That this House do not insist on its Amendment system of post-legislative scrutiny. Well done them, 15 to which the Commons have disagreed for their because under that the Government of the day are Reason 15A. required to publish a memorandum to Parliament on 15A: Because Part 1 and Schedule 1 are not provisions the operation of each Act of Parliament up to five to which it is appropriate to apply a sunset provision. years after the commencement of the Act. This is considered by relevant parliamentary committees, which Lord Howell of Guildford: This is the issue of the can decide whether to conduct a detailed examination sunset clause. I believe there is another amendment to of that legislation. I ask again: what is the point of this be moved which is related but with a slightly different additional proposed provision? 777 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 778

I am happy to repeat the commitment of my friend In such cases Amendment 15B allows the Government the Minister for Europe and say that this Government to proceed by order, which requires the support of agree that this system is a useful tool that should be both Houses but without a referendum. exploited and that a future Government must publish We need flexibility. Without it we may waste money a full report on how the Bill has been used within five because a decision which is not controversial has years of this legislation becoming law. This will result nevertheless to go through the process of the referendum. in the clarity and the reflection that colleagues in the Without flexibility we may lose the benefit of useful other place rightly seek, but without arbitrarily depriving decisions because a referendum is of little concern to the British people of their say at the end of this the majority of citizens who have no objection to it Parliament. and therefore a small minority are able to defeat the This has now been considered by the other place, Government. Without flexibility the Government may which has disagreed with your Lordships’ amendment decide not to go ahead with a decision which is useful by a very substantial majority of 89 votes. Therefore, and non-controversial but not important enough to it falls to your Lordships’ House to consider whether justify the cost and effort of a referendum. to insist on the amendment or accept the clear and Nothing in Amendment 15B would affect the considered view of the other place; and whether to referendum lock in the present Parliament, but future accept, in the light of what I have said, that this is a Parliaments should have some control over it. I recognise necessary amendment or challenge to the Government’s that the amendment would give the Government and Motion that needs go forward. I personally doubt that Parliament power in theory to avoid referendums on it need go forward and I urge your Lordships to let the matters where a referendum would have wide support— Motion stand. especially, for example, in the case of adopting the euro—but there is no likelihood whatever that any 7.15 pm Government would refuse a referendum in cases of that kind. In any event, if your Lordships’ House accepts the principle of Amendment 15B, I can see no Motion D1 objection to amending it so that it does not apply to Moved by Lord Goodhart those categories where there is likely to be a strong As an amendment to Motion D, at end insert demand for a referendum. ″but do propose Amendment 15B in lieu″ This Government propose to rely on favourable 15B: After Clause 21, insert the following new Clause— referendums in specified circumstances. So be it, but “Suspension of section 6 and Schedule 1 we should not enforce the same restriction on future Parliaments—that is for each Parliament to decide. In Parliaments subsequent to the Parliament in which this Act is passed the Secretary of State may by order Does the Minister recognise that it is impossible for approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament the Government to prevent a future Government provide that any provision of section 6 or Schedule 1 exercising their power without a referendum to bring shall be suspended for the duration of that Parliament or in legislation? If that is so, it makes the situation for any lesser period.” somewhat different, but it seems nevertheless desirable for Amendment 15B to be included, because it makes Lord Goodhart: My Lords, Amendment 15, which simpler provision for varying the Bill now being enacted. the other place rejected, provided a kind of sunset It is desirable to take Amendment 15B on board. I clause for the whole of Part 1 but gave power for hope that the Government will consider doing just that. future Parliaments to restore the Bill. Amendment 15B replaces Amendment 15 with more limited powers. In Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, this is again the first place Amendment 15B applies only to Clause a wrecking amendment, which is how the noble Lord, 6 and Schedule 1 and not to the rest of Part 1. Lord Blackwell, described the previous amendment. It Secondly, the original Amendment 15 cancels the goes to the very heart of the Bill and would neuter it operation of Part 1 and Schedule 1 at the end of the completely if it produced a sort of son of a sunset duration of the present Parliament and leaves incoming clause. People outside this Chamber and outside Governments to revive those provisions of the Bill. Parliament will simply not understand what the House Amendment 15B leaves Clause 6 and Schedule 1 in of Lords is doing if it votes for it. The Bill is intended force unless and until a new Government wish to to give British people a voice and protect them from suspend them, and suspension cannot go beyond the further laws and further integration produced by Europe. duration of the Parliament which suspended them. They will not understand if the House of Lords Thirdly, the original Amendment 15 is all or nothing. supports this amendment, which goes against the whole Part 1 and Schedule 1 either are entirely out of action tenor of the Bill. or are entirely in force. Amendment 15B provides for On the earlier amendment, the noble Lord, Lord the suspension of any one or more of provisions Liddle, made some great play about the lack of trust in contained in Clause 6 or Schedule 1. Amendment 15B politicians and Parliament in general. Although he is therefore much more flexible than Amendment 15, would not interpret his remarks that way, I take them and that is a very important difference. It is surely to support the use of referendums, precisely because plain that some of the decisions that may lead to a of the lack of trust in Parliament and government in referendum under the Bill will not be appropriate for general in this country. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, such a referendum because of the limited importance prayed in aid the people of Slovenia, who apparently for ordinary citizens of that particular decision or trust their Parliament and say that they do not want because of the uncontroversial nature of that decision. referendums. But that simply is not the case in this 779 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 780

[LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE] As the noble Lord who speaks for UKIP said, this country. The voters in this country do not have the will arouse suspicions among some members of the same faith in their Government and Parliament as the public that Parliament is taking away the right to be people of Slovenia apparently do. If the amendment is consulted while giving the appearance that that right carried, it will drag Parliament even further into the still remains. I can think of nothing that would be contempt that British people already have for it. It is more likely to undermine trust than to maintain the extremely dangerous, and I hope that it will be voted legislation on the statute book but incorporate into it down by this House. a provision that would take the guts out of it.

Lord Radice: The House of Lords is a very effective 7.30 pm revising Chamber and has proved that on this Bill by Two versions of the sunset clause have been put making it better and more manageable than it was at forward: Amendments 15 and 15B. Amendment 15, of first. However, the House of Commons has not accepted course, goes very wide, because in effect it allows the our amendments, except in the case of the definition disapplication of the whole of Part 1 and of Schedule 1. of parliamentary sovereignty—I congratulate the noble I do not agree with the clause for the general reasons I Lord who so ably pioneered the provision that we have have given, but in addition to the general reasons, now just passed. We have just rejected the idea of Amendment 15 has some unintended consequences. It confining referendums to major issues. Therefore, there removes not just the referendum lock but the Act of is a case for a sunset clause. Parliament lock as well, in some instances. Passerelles This Bill is an attempt, as the people who introduced and parliamentary control under Clauses 7 and 10 are it in the House of Commons have made quite clear, to to be removed. bind successor Governments, and it involves a major Many noble Lords who have been against the Bill extension of referendums. In a sense, it is a major have said, “Oh, but we approve of the parliamentary constitutional innovation. Noble Lords who have so control; we approve of the need to have an Act of ably supported Governments of the past in Europe Parliament if there is a transfer of power”, but under have said to us that we should take seriously the this wider version of the sunset clause, that, in many danger of marginalisation that might arise from the instances, will go. Not only the referendum lock will Bill. Therefore, there should be a reassessment mechanism go, but the parliamentary lock as well. That might be in it. I consider that we have a new, mild and flexible why the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goodhart, has version of that in this amendment, which it would be put forward a narrower version of it that concentrates very useful to Parliament to have. We should go beyond on Clause 6 and Schedule 1. Of course, that is even what the Labour Government introduced, which has more pick and choose, because it says that any been mentioned already; that is, a committee report provision—not the whole of Clause 6 or the whole of on whether a Bill has been effective. Perhaps that Schedule 1, but any provision within Clause 6 or should be part of the process, but we should then go Schedule 1—could be suspended. Again, I put it to on, as the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said, to have a the House that this will give the appearance that the mild version of a sunset clause. referendum lock remains, but it will in effect be removed when the Government decide that it would be convenient Lord Lamont of Lerwick: My Lords, sunset clauses to remove it. It also, in some instances, does away with are appropriate in some legislation: for example, when the parliamentary lock where that falls under Clause 6. one has emergency legislation and Governments take For example, there would be no requirement for exceptional powers. Those powers may have an effect parliamentary approval if there was a decision to join on civil liberties for instance. Counterterrorism Bills the European public prosecutor, or no parliamentary sometimes have such an effect. However, this is not lock as regards the passerelles under Clause 6. emergency legislation; it is legislation that seeks a The noble Lord pointed out that this was just for long-term and permanent change in our relationship the duration of the Parliament; it would have to be with Europe. renewed in future Parliaments and would be suspended There is another reason why a sunset clause would only temporarily, but if you suspend a particular be inappropriate. It is in effect, as proposed, a reversal provision temporarily and give away the power under of primary legislation via a resolution. It is a fast-track the temporary suspension of that provision, you have procedure for removing legislation. In a way, it is a bit given it away permanently. There is not much use in like the Article 48(6) provision in the European Union having the power back after you have given away the treaty which this Bill is designed to act as a safeguard power that you originally wanted to protect. This is against. very dangerous. It is far-reaching and would give rise One is either for or against this legislation, and to a very cynical reaction among the public if carried. many noble Lords have given reasons, powerfully and eloquently, why they are deeply opposed to it. However, Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, the noble they cannot have it both ways. To suspend the legislation, Lord, Lord Lamont, always argues very effectively either in whole or in part, is to fudge the decision. If and has done so yet again. He invariably falls back on noble Lords do not agree with the legislation, they logic and argument rather than on attempts to raise cannot hide behind amendments that would allow emotional feelings of one kind or another that are the referendum requirement to be taken out while inappropriate, but I want to put to him a rather maintaining the appearance and the structure of the different point. He said, which was fair enough, that legislation giving effect to consultation and decision this kind of sunset clause often applies to emergency by the people. legislation, in particular to emergency legislation that 781 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 782 leads, for example, to exceptional powers being taken Lord Goodhart: My Lords, I point out to the noble by a Government that need to be looked at later in a Lord that Amendment 15B was not put to the Members rather less heightened atmosphere in order to decide of the House of Commons. It is a newly introduced whether they should remain on the statute book. amendment and what he is saying has very little bearing Many of us will know that emergency legislation on this issue. passed back in the 1940s still sits on the constitutional pattern of far too many countries that use it to suppress Lord Empey: I was referring to the remarks of the human rights, so one has to be very cautious about noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and commenting that of that kind of thing. course very few people participated in the debate, so There is another very different factor about this that point is valid. The noble and learned Lord is right legislation. It is highly speculative legislation. It makes to say that this particular amendment was not before assumptions about the kinds of issues that are likely to the other place, but at the end of the day the purpose is come up over the next few years. We know enough the same. The noble Lord, Lord Radice, described is from what we are reading even today that major issues as a “soft sunset”. Well, whether you have a hard are likely to come up. These go all the way, as John sunset or a soft sunset, it is still a sunset, and at the end Major said at the Ditchley Foundation only a few days of the day I just wonder, in view of our discussions in ago, to the question of how one changes eurozone this House about our own future, whether it is wise for practices—whether one will look again, for example, Members of this House to send anything back to the at the tendency towards an increased or enhanced other place that contains the word “sunset”. It is stability pact. These issues will have the greatest impact probably not the best thing for us to do. There is no on the UK, even though we are not, of course, a constitutional imperative to send this back to the member of the eurozone. In this respect the noble other place. If we believed that there was, it would be Lord, Lord Radice, was absolutely right to say that we the duty of this House to do so. I just do not see that cannot know what might arise. The whole point of the in front of us. sunset clause as we are presenting it is that it gives the On the continuous use of the word “flexibility”, we British public, in the broadest sense of the word, an all like flexibility in government, but it is a euphemism opportunity to see what the impact has been of this for something else. It means that Ministers can go on speculative legislation, which some say will make it to take decisions, and it is precisely that flexibility that very difficult for our representatives in Brussels to has existed for the past 35 years that leads to the Bill represent our own national interests. That is an untested being in front of your Lordships’ House tonight. It is statement. The other untested statement is how far unfortunate that we have to go through these procedures, they will feel heavily dissuaded from expressing but I see no alternative but to go ahead with the Bill, British national interests for fear that it might set off a and I believe that the amendment as currently drafted, referendum. or in its original form, casts a dagger at the very heart The great beauty of the sunset clause is that it will of what the Bill stands for. I hope that noble Lords unquestionably turn the Bill into a general election will reject this proposal. phenomenon—an issue that will have to be considered Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, I support the at the next general election—which is, in the mind of Motion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goodhart. many of us, exactly what it ought to be. The British I preface my remarks by referring to my noble friend public will be able to consider in the round whether it Lord Empey’s statement about not angering the House is wise or unhelpful legislation and to do so in what of Commons. It would be unwise, frankly, if we went will undoubtedly be a very substantial turnout, and into a pre-emptive cringe at this stage. I am not sure because this will be an issue about whether this legislation that that would help us very much in the difficult will continue, it will come at the right moment and in debates ahead. the right way before the British people so that they can decide. No noble Lord in the House today has addressed Amendment 15. We accept that it was voted against by Lord Empey: My Lords, I said on Third Reading the House of Commons, and in any case it is not that the proposal for a sunset clause was ill conceived. permissible for us to return to the identical amendment I believed that to be true then, and I believe it to be again. That is not being suggested. The amendment of true now. While I was not present for the debate in the the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goodhart, is meant other place, I did read it today and unfortunately a lot to produce what has been called by the noble Lord, of unkind things were said about this House, which is Lord Radice, a “soft sunset”. unusual. A consistent theme throughout the discussion I listened to the debate in the other place and one of on the amendments was that a number of them were the things I heard there quite surprised me, although wrecking amendments. That is how this amendment on reflection I think it was entirely valid. The Minister was seen by a number of Members in the other place. for Europe was questioned by one of the not terribly The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said that only a small friendly members of his own party who would rather number were there, and that was undoubtedly true, see us outside the European Union. He was asked but to some extent that makes the point, because if whether it would be possible for this Parliament or a Members in the other place were actively supportive future Parliament to insert a referendum requirement of the decisions of your Lordships’ House some weeks in the primary legislation that approved the matters in ago, why did they vote with their feet and not turn up this Bill that are not subject to a referendum but are to debate some of these amendments? They obviously subject merely to primary legislation. He replied, “Yes, did not see merit in them. That is the only reason I can absolutely. No problem. If that is what Parliament think of why they would abstain in such a way. decides, you can add another referendum—just like 783 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 784

[LORD HANNAY OF CHISWICK] not this Bill should be repealed by a new Government that—in the primary legislation”. That startled me were they to win the election. I did not intervene in the and led me to think that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, debates on the earlier amendments but this debate has when he talked about it having both ways, might not been about trust in the people and the constitution, have heard of that development in constitutional practice. and much has been made about the move to plebiscitary When the Minister replies to the debate, can he say democracy. whether the converse is also true? In the primary The theme of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, throughout legislation that would have to be introduced in the the course of the Bill has been his anxiety for the House of Commons on the back of a decision by the Liberal Democrats and whether they feel awkward government in Brussels to go ahead with one of these and embarrassed by it. The presumption underlying matters, could Parliament simply waive in that legislation those comments—and the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, the requirement that is in this legislation? It will be has been a member of my party, the Liberal Democrats interesting to hear what he has to say about that. I do —is that we are reluctantly going along with these not see that the proposition that the Minister for measures and that there is no philosophical underpinning Europe agreed to—that a referendum requirement whatever. During the passage of the Bill we have had could be added where one was not required under this commentary about Burke and parliamentary democracy, legislation—could be valid if the contrary proposition, and about an hour ago the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, which I have also put, was not valid. Perhaps the referred to Tom Paine. The philosophical underpinning Minister will reply to that. for why the people should be trusted comes from no Frankly, with some of the arguments that have been less a person than John Stuart Mill. He said: introduced about how flexibility is a dirty word, my “A state which dwarfs its men, in order that they may be more heart fails me when I think of people strapping themselves docile instruments in its hands, even for beneficial purposes, will to masts, waiting for the ship to go down and saying, find that with small men no great thing can really be accomplished”. “Thank God I am tied to the mast and I cannot That is why we have supported the Bill and why we swim”. It is not a very good argument. The circumstances trust the people; they are ultimately sovereign. in which flexibility could be exercised are extremely limited and will be difficult to invoke; this amendment Lord Liddle: My concern throughout the Bill has simply suggests a way of doing it. We would be very been for the position of Britain in Europe and that it wise if we were to once again ask the Commons to should remain an active partner in the European think again about this matter. This is not a wrecking Union. I fear that the provisions of the Bill will amendment and, for the reasons I have given, I do not ultimately prevent us from being so. I am sorry that think it takes the matter much further than it is some Liberal Democrats appear to think that this was already, with the possibility of the House of Commons not a matter of high principle: it is a matter of high varying the provisions at the moment that it enacts the principle to which I have committed my political life. primary legislation. I hope that some further thought will be given to this and that we will not all turn Baroness Falkner of Margravine: When the noble ourselves to the belief that this is a wrecking amendment, Lord’s party returns to government, we look forward which it is not intended to be. to it engaging with the country in debating whether the provisions of this Bill should be repealed. We look 7.45 pm forward to engaging with it in that debate. Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, I shall speak against Motion D1. The reasons for doing so Lord Armstrong of Ilminster: My Lords, I fear that are quite straightforward. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, some of the speakers in this debate are guilty of a commented on flexibility and how important it is that terminological inexactitude. If we wait here for another in going forward in unpredictable circumstances we hour or two, as seems quite likely, we shall find that should have flexibility. While I agree with him there, I the sun sets and there is nothing we can do about it. am not clear that Amendment 15B provides that flexibility That was the effect of Amendment 15—the sun was because, in order to have a suspension of Section 6 or going to set when there was a general election and Schedule 1, it would require us to have the approval of there was nothing we could do about it. Amendment both Houses. Does the noble Lord believe that the D1 is quite different. It is not a sunset at all: if it is, it is approval of both Houses could be arrived at in a a voluntary sunset—something I have never heard of manner which did not revisit all of the contentious before. issues in Section 6 or Schedule 1? If they could have The Act, as it will be, remains in force after an been debated without extensive deliberation or scrutiny— election and unless and until a Minister wants to call it what you will—we would not have spent as amend Section 6 or Schedule 1, partially, not at all or much time as we have on the Bill. On the other hand, wholly. That seems to be eminently sensible. It leaves flexibility nevertheless exists in the ability of a future the discretion after the election entirely in the hands of Government to repeal either the entire Act, as it will the new Minister, the new Government if there is one, be by then, or sections of the Act. and a new Parliament. It does not force anybody to do My noble friend Lady Williams spoke of the anything—it gives them the opportunity to do it. It is importance of the people of this country having their a much easier way of doing it than having to go say on a sunset clause—I prefer to call it a suspension through the process of repeal or partial repeal. It clause—in a general election. If the Act went forward seems to me to be eminently sensible and flexible and I unamended, the people could still have their say because hope the House will give effect to Amendment D1 this there could equally easily be a debate on whether or evening. 785 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 786

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, if the purpose lost and we did not have a referendum, and that is part of this Bill were gesture politics, with no outside of the problem with the EU in this country. The effects, then perhaps it would be possible to go along people have never been given a vote since the referendum with it. However, the provisions proposed in this on the Common Market in 1975. This sort of amendment amendment are reviewable by a Government and are will stop them having a say, which they should be given. by no means gestures alone. They are bound to have a significant effect on the ability of our Ministers negotiating Lord Maclennan of Rogart: We live in a representative in the Council to decide issues of massive importance democracy and elected Members of Parliament are to the people. We have been told that none of those put into that position of authority to act in the best issues will be considered by the people in the lifetime interests of the citizens of this country. The notion of this Parliament so the Government appear to be that by not having referenda we are somehow denying putting on ice any questions about improving the the fundament of our parliamentary democracy seems efficacy of the working of the European Union until to be a complete and utter nonsense. It is not only the the end of this Parliament. Maastricht treaty that was carried through by Parliament My noble friend who opened this debate said that a in that way. Mrs Thatcher, when she was Prime Minister, subsequent Parliament could amend this Bill or throw also introduced the Single European Act which introduced it out. He is right, but he also said in an earlier debate majority voting and there was no question of a referendum that the Government have no intention of using this about that. If you look at the opinion polls of those Bill in this Parliament. If that is the case, why are we years, and indeed of the years around Maastricht, the having to legislate at all? It seems to me that the public were far more supportive of our membership of appropriate time to do that would be in the next the European Union than they are now. Parliament if that is when these measures are supposed I heard the remark of the Minister for Europe, to bite. The notion that we are legislating for the future Mr Lidington, that it is only people of my generation in this way is bound to have almost no effect on public who are supportive of the European Union. When we opinion beyond putting up scaremongering notices were active young Members, supporting the European about the possibility that after the next election we will Union, the public listened and believed what we were all collapse in a heap and be walked over by our fellow saying—that it was in the interests of the people of members of the European Union. That is guaranteed Britain. Now we have a new generation, a whole to make the issue of Europe a very divisive one at the generation younger than me, who claim that it is our next election. fault that the public are not with them. The nonsense The amendment of my noble friend Lord Goodhart of that is that they have never seriously tried to explain seems to be eminently sensible. It has not been rejected what the purposes of the European Union are; what by another place. It is new and it is not merely differently its achievements are and what its goals are. That is why phrased but differently conceived. I supported the we are wasting our time with this ridiculous piece of sunset amendment as it was drafted but I am happy to legislation, which is a waste of parliamentary time in support my noble friend’s revision. It would allow scrutiny and is deceiving the public. We have been told Ministers to decide, in the light of the circumstances at it will not be voted on. There will be no referendum on the time, whether the issue before Europe and before this side of the next election and after that the picture this country was of such massive importance that it will all change. would be inappropriate to prepare a referendum. My 8pm experience of dealing with European matters in Parliament suggests that debates are long and thorough about Lord Judd: My Lords, the noble Lord knows by European issues. The public are made completely aware, now that I have unlimited respect for his consistent by debate and deliberation, what the issues are. Surely contribution on European matters. This peroration of some of those who are supporting this Bill must his is very powerful. Would he not agree that the remember the debates on the Maastricht treaty—the trouble with this wretched piece of legislation is that it hours after hours in which Members of Parliament could not be better designed to undermine our influence considered these matters. To suggest that the public on the mainland of Europe? were not aware of it is simply to deny the facts of Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords— history. The noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke, suggested Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I believe that that this was a wrecking amendment. It is not—it is an the House is ready to hear the closing speakers. I sense amendment that enables the Government of the day where the House is. to decide whether the national interest is better served by legislative process—by debate, as we had over Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, I had sat Maastricht—than by having a prolonged debate in down and was perfectly happy to hear the view of the public leading to a referendum. noble Lord, Lord Judd. The House is eager to take a decision. Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, I took part in Lord Triesman: My Lords— the debates on the Maastricht treaty. I remember them very well. The central point about those debates and Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords— about the way the treaty was pushed through is that we were not given a referendum. There was a big debate Noble Lords: Oh! here on whether we should have a referendum on the Maastricht treaty. Unfortunately, that Motion was Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I insist— 787 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 788

Lord Triesman: My Lords, either the Whip on the have reason to believe that the present difficulties in other side is making a judgment that he is inviting the European nation state economies give us ample evidence House to endorse or he is not. I do not mind either that they will be the tapestry against which all of this way but I suspect he is right. will play out. We do not know how the constitutional matters will play out. I doubt anybody here has the Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, this is perfectly temerity to suggest that they know in which circumstances out of order. If necessary I will get the House to vote all these matters will play out either. on whether I can speak. I entirely understand the argument that there are some things, even against the background that I have Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I believe that I described, that are so important to the people of the heard the voice of the House, and I believe that the United Kingdom that they will insist on having a say House is very clear that it wants to hear the closing on them. It is also true that the Government of the day speakers. will be bound, in those circumstances, to try to make judgments of their own about what the interests of the Noble Lords: Hear, hear! country are at any time. There is no point to a parliamentary democracy where the Government of Lord Triesman: My Lords, we are taking part in this the day say, on some quite critical issues, “We will not debate this evening because the House of Commons be finally responsible for taking judgments about what did not accept Amendment 15. The noble Lord, Lord the interests of our country are”. That would be a Empey, made the point that the other place may have peculiar country to live in and one in which the notion been indifferent because relatively few Members were of fundamental democracy had been considerably there. I ask him not to make that judgment in general eroded. Variations by subsequent Governments in about things that happen at the other end. When most subsequent Parliaments, of the kind that are suggested debates are conducted, you see the camera sweep in this amendment, seem just to be prudent as a means around without many people being there. It is entirely of allowing the possibility of dealing with circumstances possible that you could regard this as indifference to as they arise in a way that is more flexible—I am not almost everything, or you could say that it is the afraid of that word—in all of those circumstances. nature of the life of this place. I certainly do not think I am wholly in agreement with the noble Baroness, that the House could accept what he commended to Lady Williams, when she says that a significant number us—that we should send no messages that are in any of these issues will be judged in general elections. sense disagreeable to people in the other place. Such a When people look at the questions that must be resolved, supine response from this House to matters on which they will look at them in general elections. For those we feel amendments are needed would surely be exactly who say “Trust in the people”, my trust is at its highest the opposite of the role that this House should play, point when they decide which Government they want and ample argument for its having no role at all. in a general election. That is a fundamental form of What is fundamental at this stage is that this legislation trust. I accept that there will be circumstances in takes us, in several constitutional areas, into waters which a referendum would be absolutely right. I hope that are—I candidly submit to the House—unknown. I have been clear from this side of the House that these We are being invited to change from a system that is include such matters as defence policy, Schengen and fundamentally parliamentary in the main thrust of its the euro. There is a raft of policies where I can see that work to a system that is plebiscitary. It will on one that would be entirely true. However, I do not believe reading lead to a significant number of plebiscites—that that, in comparison with a general election and the is entirely possible—or on another to very few, as the decisions that are taken, the people of the country—in noble Lord, Lord Lamont, suggested. That is also whom, inevitably, trust must be placed in all such entirely possible; I do not know which it will be. What circumstances—believe it is somehow better to replicate I do know is that it will be fundamentally different “The X Factor” than to deal with real politics in real from the way in which we have conducted parliamentary circumstances. “The X Factor” may be fine as a form debate on key issues over many generations. of entertainment, but it is hardly a way of dealing with There is a fundamental constitutional change in the national interest when it must be dealt with under that Parliament will offer the public votes—either stress or duress. frequently or infrequently, depending on which reading I also agreed with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, one takes—on whether to overturn the decisions that when she responded to the noble Lord, Lord Lamont. it has taken as a result of major debates and major This is an important point; I hope the House will not opportunities to review changes in Europe in both mind my repeating it. The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, Houses. Inevitably, there will be a fundamental change is right when he says that the case for clauses that limit in how we conduct our relationship with Europe as a the life of legislation is far clearer in dealing with whole. That is what is intended. Some people advocate emergency legislation. You do not know whether you that, while others of us believe that this is a will need it in the future, and you are not 100 per sure disproportionate way of trying to do that. None the that it will meet the intentions for which it was introduced. less, these are all fundamental changes. However, there is also a completely reasonable case for I suggest to the House that, in sailing into these saying that, when we are taking such significant steps waters, the reality is that we do not know how it will into the dark in constitutional terms, there needs to be play out. Least of all do we know in what circumstances a way to say, “How do we make sure that we’ve got the it will play out. We do not know which things will balance right in the interests of the country? How can provide the most significant changes, although we we make sure that we are taking the right decisions 789 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] European Union Bill 790 in the right way against the right environmental Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I start by circumstances?”. That is, after all, the function of thanking the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, for the government. careful and conciliatory way in which he moved the I cannot stand at this Dispatch Box and claim that I amendment, now some time ago. I do not regard this know with certainty where those new balances will lie. as a wrecking amendment, but I do see it as an It is precisely my point that none of us knows where amendment that will confuse and complicate the principles they will lie. However, this generation of politicians or behind this Bill, weaken their role and not help to the next will have to make those judgments. They will reassure our sceptical citizens. come around and they will have to be made. Politicians In answer to the insistent question of the noble should be in a position to make them with the greatest Lord, Lord Stoddart, my reading of this amendment, confidence and authority that they can. It is critical to which I am sure is that of the noble Lord, Lord our country that they are successful in doing so. Goodhart, is that it is intended to be a permissive I hope we will accept Amendment 15B. It is a much power and not an obligatory power for the Secretary more limited suggestion than Amendment 15. It seems, of State, which is why it says “may” and not “shall”. in every respect, to grant flexibility without overriding In its favour, the amendment rejects the passive the key provisions of the Bill in any significant way. It approach proposed by Amendment 15; that is to say, commends itself strongly to me on that basis. Most of the amendment in lieu requires the Government to all, it commends itself on the basis that, if it is true take a positive decision to seek to suspend some of the that the cause for dissatisfaction is the belief that provisions of the Bill. It is permissive in that respect. Parliament has let too many of its roles and responsibilities A Government taking such a decision would undoubtedly go toward Europe and for those reasons fundamental be mindful of the possible reaction of the British constitutional change is needed—because that is the people to such a move. It would therefore be open to a argument for this kind of fundamental constitutional greater degree of transparency in terms of the motivation change—let us be certain as time goes by that we have of the Government of the day that the original sunset got it right, that the balances are right and that whatever clause would not, to the same degree. As the noble the causes were we have not backed ourselves into a Lord, Lord Lamont, noted, it allows for the suspension cul-de-sac or something worse. of the requirement for an Act of Parliament before any of the decisions in Clause 6 are taken, depending Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I thank the on the terms in the order. So it risks diluting the noble Lord— increased engagement for Parliament, which is an important part of this Bill. The level to which Parliament Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords— and the people would be involved in these important decisions would then be in the hands of Ministers, a Lord Wallace of Saltaire: We are now winding up. principle that runs against the spirit of the Bill. Lord Stoddart of Swindon: If anyone wishes to A number of noble Lords suggested that the Bill challenge me and move that I no longer be heard, let was intended only to apply to future Governments. I them do so, but I wish to ask a question. If I had been remind noble Lords that in the next Session of this allowed to do so without the very rude interruption of House, we will consider legislation under the terms of the Whip on the Bench, noble Lords would have saved this Bill on Croatian accession and the European themselves a lot of time. What I wanted to ask—and I stability mechanism, and that the conditions of the am going to ask it now—is whether, when the amendment Bill will apply to those. states that a future Government “may”, it means “shall”. We often have debates about what “may” and “shall” should mean, and I think it is important that 8.15 pm before noble Lords vote, if there is going to be a vote, Let me offer some reassurance to the noble Lord, they know whether they are voting for something that Lord Goodhart, and his supporters on the context in commits the next Government to something or is which the Bill will operate once translated into law permissive for the next Government. Now I will sit under future Governments and Parliaments. I remind down and be quiet. your Lordships of the principles of parliamentary Could I just add that the Whip on the Bench did sovereignty—that no Parliament can bind its successors. not intervene on the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, If for any reason a future Parliament wished to suspend, who widened the debate on this very narrow amendment disapply or repeal any of the provisions of this Bill, it to the extent of whether we should be in or out? I could do so, unconstrained by the wishes of this think I have been extremely badly treated, and I hope Parliament. Most likely, it would decide to do so at a that the Whip will apologise. time when it was considering an Act of Parliament required under the terms of this Bill. At such a time, Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I would not the particulars of that draft decision would be clear want to upset the noble Lord. I was taking the view of and so might the question of whether to disapply this the House. In this business of a self-regulating House, Bill, or not. If I may say so, that is a Clause 18 occasionally we have to use judgment, and it was my statement, which is declaratory and in no sense changes judgment that we were ready to conclude this debate, the basis of how we operate. No future Government and I believe that is the case. would venture to do so unless they had made real progress in regaining the trust of the British public in Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I might say to the noble the processes of European co-operation that have Lord that he is not entitled to make that judgment. been so seriously weakened in the past 15 to 20 years. 791 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 792

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] Bassam of Brighton, L. Layard, L. I set out earlier the Government’s support for the [Teller] Lea of Crondall, L. previous Government’s new system of post-legislative Beecham, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Berkeley, L. scrutiny, which would allow a detailed, proper and Levy, L. Bilston, L. Liddle, L. timely examination of this legislation after five years. I Blood, B. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. repeat again the commitment of my friend, the Minister Boyd of Duncansby, L. McAvoy, L. for Europe in the other place, that this Government Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, are committed under the now accepted procedures of Brookman, L. L. Browne of Ladyton, L. McDonagh, B. post-legislative scrutiny to the principle that a future Campbell-Savours, L. McFall of Alcluith, L. Government must publish a full report on how this Carter of Coles, L. Bill has been used within five years of this legislation Christopher, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. becoming law. I hope that that offers reassurances to Clancarty, E. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, and his supporters. Clarke of Hampstead, L. Clinton-Davis, L. L. We believe that this is the most effective approach, Collins of Highbury, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. rather than installing an instrument that would not Condon, L. Maclennan of Rogart, L. re-engage the people of this country and would remove Corbett of Castle Vale, L. Mandelson, L. the transparency and certainty that this Government Crawley, B. Massey of Darwen, B. have adopted from the start as watchwords for the Bill. Davies of Oldham, L. Maxton, L. Davies of Stamford, L. Meacher, B. Having given those assurances, I hope that the Deben, L. Moonie, L. noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment. Desai, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Dixon, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Lord Goodhart: My Lords, let me start by making a Drake, B. Nye, B. small and not very serious comment. From time to Drayson, L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. D’Souza, B. Paisley of St George’s, B. time my noble friend Lord Lamont and others have Dubs, L. Patel, L. referred to me as being learned. Unfortunately, I am Dykes, L. Pitkeathley, B. not. If I was in the House of Commons, I would be, Elder, L. Plant of Highfield, L. but in your Lordships’ House I am not. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Radice, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. On more serious matters, I start by thanking my Filkin, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. noble friends Lord Howell and Lord Wallace of Saltaire Finlay of Llandaff, B. Rendell of Babergh, B. for their balanced and serious response to the debates Ford, B. Richard, L. that have taken place on this matter. So far as an Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. incoming Government are concerned after the next Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Rosser, L. Gale, B. Rowe-Beddoe, L. general election, they will, whether or not Amendment 15B Giddens, L. Rowlands, L. is present, have the power to repeal all or part of the Gilbert, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. EU Act, as it will then be, without a referendum. If Goodhart, L. St John of Bletso, L. Amendment 15B is adopted, the incoming Government Gould of Potternewton, B. Sawyer, L. can use that amendment as an alternative to repeal Grantchester, L. Sewel, L. and replacement of the complete Act. Members of Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Sherlock, B. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Simon, V. Parliament will be involved either way, either in supporting Harries of Pentregarth, L. Smith of Basildon, B. a new Bill or in approving the making of the order Harris of Haringey, L. Soley, L. that will need to be passed under this Bill. This is not a Harrison, L. Stern, B. big step. Hart of Chilton, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Haskel, L. Stevenson of Coddenham, L. The noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, Haworth, L. Strasburger, L. made a very good point on this and explained very Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. clearly the distinction. Amendment 15B just gives a Henig, B. Taverne, L. simple way of dealing with an action that could be Hennessy of Nympsfield, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. done without it. I see no reason why Amendment 15B Hilton of Eggardon, B. Temple-Morris, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Thornton, B. should not be included in the Bill. While I seriously Howarth of Breckland, B. Tomlinson, L. considered the question of whether we would pass this Howarth of Newport, L. Tonge, B. amendment without going to a vote, I think this falls Howells of St Davids, B. Touhig, L. short of that. It is therefore my intention to ask for the Hughes of Woodside, L. Triesman, L. decision of your Lordships’ House. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Hylton, L. Turnberg, L. Jones, L. Turner of Camden, B. 8.21 pm Jones of Whitchurch, B. Wall of New Barnet, B. Judd, L. Warnock, B. Division on Motion D1 Kennedy of Southwark, L. West of Spithead, L. King of Bow, B. Wheeler, B. Contents 148; Not-Contents 215. King of West Bromwich, L. Whitaker, B. Kingsmill, B. Williams of Crosby, B. Motion D1 disagreed. Kinnock, L. Williamson of Horton, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Wills, L. Division No. 2 Kirkhill, L. Young of Norwood Green, L.

CONTENTS NOT CONTENTS Aberdare, L. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Adams of Craigielea, B. Armstrong of Ilminster, L. Addington, L. Alderdice, L. Anderson of Swansea, L. Bannside, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] 793 European Union Bill[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 794

Ashdown of Norton-sub- Greenway, L. Rawlings, B. Stowell of Beeston, B. Hamdon, L. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Razzall, L. Strathclyde, L. Astor, V. Hamwee, B. Reay, L. Sutherland of Houndwood, L. Astor of Hever, L. Hanham, B. Rennard, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Attlee, E. Harris of Peckham, L. Ribeiro, L. Tebbit, L. Avebury, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Risby, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Henley, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. Barker, B. Heyhoe Flint, B. Rotherwick, L. Tope, L. Benjamin, B. Higgins, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. True, L. Sanderson of Bowden, L. Berridge, B. Hill of Oareford, L. Trumpington, B. Sassoon, L. Black of Brentwood, L. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Tyler, L. Scott of Foscote, L. Blackwell, L. L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Blencathra, L. Hollins, B. Scott of Needham Market, B. Seccombe, B. Ullswater, V. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Home, E. Verma, B. B. Howard of Rising, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Selsdon, L. Waddington, L. Boswell of Aynho, L. Howe, E. Wade of Chorlton, L. Bridgeman, V. Howell of Guildford, L. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Wakeham, L. Brinton, B. Hunt of Wirral, L. Sharkey, L. Waldegrave of North Hill, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Hussain, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. L. Hussein-Ece, B. Sharples, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. James of Blackheath, L. Shaw of Northstead, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Browning, B. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Sheikh, L. Walmsley, B. Burnett, L. Kilclooney, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. Walpole, L. Buscombe, B. King of Bridgwater, L. Shipley, L. Warsi, B. Byford, B. Kirkham, L. Shrewsbury, E. Wasserman, L. Cameron of Dillington, L. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Wheatcroft, B. Carlile of Berriew, L. Knight of Collingtree, B. Spicer, L. Wilcox, B. Carrington, L. Kramer, B. Stedman-Scott, B. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Cathcart, E. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Stewartby, L. Willoughby de Broke, L. Chadlington, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Stirrup, L. Wolfson of Aspley Guise, L. Chester, Bp. Lawson of Blaby, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Wolfson of Sunningdale, L. Chidgey, L. Leach of Fairford, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Clement-Jones, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. Lexden, L. Motion D agreed. Cormack, L. Lingfield, L. Cotter, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Craigavon, V. Loomba, L. Police Reform and Social Responsibility Crickhowell, L. Lucas, L. Cumberlege, B. Luke, L. Bill De Mauley, L. Lyell, L. Report (4th Day) Dear, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Denham, L. Macdonald of River Glaven, 8.33 pm Dholakia, L. L. Dixon-Smith, L. MacGregor of Pulham Dobbs, L. Market, L. Motion Dundee, E. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Eaton, B. Maddock, B. Moved by Baroness Browning Eccles, V. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. That the Bill be now further considered on Report. Eccles of Moulton, B. Mancroft, L. Eden of Winton, L. Mar and Kellie, E. Elton, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, it would be Empey, L. L. helpful to the House if the noble Baroness could give Falkner of Margravine, B. Marland, L. some indication of the Government’s intention. My Faulks, L. Marlesford, L. reckoning is that there are 18 groups left to be debated Feldman, L. Masham of Ilton, B. on Report. Can she tell me at what point she intends Feldman of Elstree, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Fellowes of West Stafford, L. Montrose, D. that the House be adjourned tonight? Fink, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Flight, L. Moynihan, L. The Minister for the Home Office (Baroness Browning): Fookes, B. Naseby, L. My Lords, I come to the Floor of the House tonight Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Newby, L. ready to complete Report. I do that particularly for Fowler, L. Newton of Braintree, L. Framlingham, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, this reason: there have been times during the course of Freeman, L. B. this Bill when we have made quite rapid progress, with Freud, L. Northover, B. the co-operation of both sides of the House, but noble Garden of Frognal, B. Norton of Louth, L. Lords will know that I have amended this Bill so that Gardiner of Kimble, L. O’Cathain, B. Members of your Lordships’ House could apply for Gardner of Parkes, B. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. and carry out the function of a full-time police and Geddes, L. Pannick, L. German, L. Parminter, B. crime commissioner. During that debate, I was persuaded Glenarthur, L. Patten, L. by Members of this House that your Lordships could Glendonbrook, L. Pearson of Rannoch, L. not only carry out their functions in this House but Glentoran, L. Perry of Southwark, B. hold down a very demanding full-time job as PCC as Gold, L. Plumb, L. well. Everybody will know that people who engage at Goodlad, L. Powell of Bayswater, L. Goschen, V. Ramsbotham, L. that level are people who do not clock-watch but get Greaves, L. Rana, L. the job done. They stay until the job is finished; that is Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Randerson, B. what I intend to do. 795 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 796

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I found that Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I did not stand up the most remarkable response. The Opposition have while anybody else was talking. I do not carry out that been very co-operative on this Bill. We agreed to do kind of breach of conventions. I am trying to assist Committee in six days and Report in four days. We did the House by pointing out that the Government have not agree that the clock should start at 8.35 of the tried to schedule business for the benefit of the Opposition evening. On average, we have taken about half an hour and for the whole House. Clearly, we are always prepared per group. At that rate, we would be meeting for to have discussions. We have done little else over the another nine hours. I regard that as wholly unacceptable, past week. Those discussions can continue but it is a as I am sure that other noble Lords will do. I suggest matter of this House that they do not continue on the to the noble Baroness that a discussion should take Floor. Of course, the Motion may be now put that we place in the usual channels on an appropriate way do resume Report stage. I invite noble Lords to agree forward. It is not acceptable to say to the House that, to that, pending that there can then be discussions at this time of the night, we should start a full day’s elsewhere. I understand, by the look of it, that the debate on Report. noble Lord the Opposition Chief Whip will be happy to reply to that. Viscount Astor: My Lords, before my noble friend replies, will she bear in mind that some of us who have Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I take that, in amendments tabled for debate this evening intend to the end, as a very positive intervention by the noble keep our speeches very short so that we will be able to Baroness the Government Chief Whip. I am more conclude this stage of the Bill? than happy to have some discussion off the Floor of Baroness Tonge: My Lords, I, too, add my protest the Chamber because it is pushing it to start a day as to what is going on here this evening. We have just late as this. The noble Baroness is quite right to spent several hours on what many people in this remind the House that we certainly signed up to try House considered to be a completely useless and totally and complete Report in four days. I do not think that unnecessary Bill. We are now faced with a Bill in anybody expected the European considerations to go which, from my point of view, the most important on for as long as they did. We tried to play our part in issue that we are yet to discuss—universal jurisdiction—is keeping them as short as we possibly could, but it is right at the end. That will probably come at something unreasonable to expect the House to debate serious like 2 am or 3 am. That is an insult to all the people issues such as universal jurisdiction, or issues that are who have died by the actions of international war a passionate concern for some, such as licensing, and criminals and I am absolutely furious that the House the rest. As it happens, we have tabled only four or five has organised the business in this way. groups of amendments for this stage of the Bill. We have tried to keep our opposition to the Bill within Lord Carlile of Berriew: Well, my Lords, I am reasonable bounds and have done so. We have kept to certainly not furious and I always listen to my noble our side of the bargain but, particularly on a friend the Minister with great care but I say to her that Wednesday—and with a Thursday sitting starting at there must be a preparedness on the Government’s 11 am and a Friday sitting at 10 am—it is not right to part to stop at a reasonable hour. This House has a keep the House beyond reasonable hours. justified reputation for considering legislation with great care and revising it on the basis of knowledge Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I will make and a solid evidence base. I fear that once we pass a two points. First, it is my understanding, in terms of very late hour today, that power of this House will be procedure, that in this House as well as in other lost. Houses if a noble Member wants to intervene in the speech of another noble Member it is appropriate to Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, it may be stand, and for the other Member to consider whether helpful if I remind the House that we are moving into or not to give way. I am sure even the Government Report and that nothing may be resolved at this Chief Whip would recognise that that is the normal moment. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, procedure. pointed out that the Opposition have always said that they would complete Report today. That is part of a Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, we have firm agreement. It was also for the convenience of the just carried out that procedure correctly, because I did Opposition Front Bench that the exchange on Lords not stand until the noble Lord gave way. I made it consideration of amendments on the EU Bill was clear I was not taking interventions. The noble Lord moved to today. and I have exchanged views on that on other occasions. This is continuing a debate which leads nowhere. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords— Discussions outside can be fruitful; discussions by the Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I am not noble Lord continuing now may jeopardise the success going to take an intervention from anybody in the of those discussions. Perhaps we might continue in the Chamber at the moment. I would be grateful if the proper manner in a House that takes its procedure noble Lord could sit down because it is a courtesy of seriously. this House that two persons do not stand at the same time. I would have thought that somebody who was a Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I was making two points. Member of another place and of another Chamber I made my first point and I gave way to the noble might be aware of that. I am pointing out— Baroness, as appropriate. The second point I want to make—it is open to Members to make these points Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: You stood up. and I say that to my own Front Bench as well as to 797 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 798 other Front Benches—is that when my noble friend A second point is that, with the numbers so elected, the Chief Whip agreed that we should discuss this inevitably there may be circumstances in which a police today it was on the basis that the day started at and crime commissioner may become incapacitated: 3.35 pm. That is, if I can work it out right, five hours they may be suspended, they may decide to leave office ago. Therefore we are not getting a full day in any voluntarily, or they may die in office. Quite rightly, the sense. That is why I agree with noble Members opposite, Bill contains provisions for the appointment of an particularly from the Liberal Democrats, who have acting commissioner. That is well and good. However, indicated their deep concern. If concern is expressed the problem with Clause 63(2) is that an acting commissioner, by the Labour Opposition and by the Liberal Democrats appointed by the police and crime panel, can only be I would have thought the Government should take appointed if they are a member of the police and crime account of that. commissioner’s staff at the time of the appointment. The acting commissioner can exercise all the functions Baroness Paisley of St George’s: My Lords, I would of a police and crime commissioner, other than issuing like to add my voice and appeal that we leave this or varying a police and crime plan under Section 6, so matter until tomorrow. At this late hour, no one can the acting police and crime commissioner can dismiss make guarantees. Although speeches may be short, the chief constable. They can set the precept and, as when there are interventions it lengthens the thing out my noble friend Lord Beecham has reminded us, that can far too long. Those of us who are past our green years be around 9 to 11 per cent, depending on whether you need to get home and get a bit of rest before coming are in England or Wales, of the total council tax bill. back early in the morning. We will then have a fresher mind and more patience than we have at this hour of 8.45 pm the night. I find it quite extraordinary that a staff member— perhaps the chief executive, the director of finance, or Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, it has been said that the chief of staff—can be appointed to exercise the the Liberal Democrats are protesting. I hope it is powers of an elected police and crime commissioner. understood that it is not all of those on the Liberal The reason that this Bill is so constructed is because Democrat Benches. I urge the speedy start and, I hope, the Government have decided on this extraordinary conclusion of talks outside the Chamber to see how concept of a corporate sole. Instead of having sensible we go. governance where it would be clear who might be well placed to be appointed as an acting police and crime Motion agreed. commissioner, the Government are flailing around and have come up with this wonderful idea that if the Clause 63 : Appointment of acting commissioner police and crime commissioner in some way cannot carry out their office, a member of their staff should be appointed to do so. That is unacceptable, and I can Amendment 229A think of circumstances in which in fact it would be Moved by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath wholly unacceptable. What if the commissioner was 229A: Clause 63, leave out Clause 63 and insert the following suspended because they were charged with an offence new Clause— which carried a potential imprisonment of more than “Acting police and crime commissioner two years? What if the commissioner were charged (1) Where a police and crime commissioner is unable to with corruption? What if that corruption involved perform his or her functions under this Part, the relevant police members of their staff? We must remember that there and crime panel must appoint an acting police and crime commissioner are no corporate governance safeguards over who the from amongst its members. police and crime commissioner appoints as a member (2) A person who is appointed to the role of acting police and of their staff: it is wide open for corruption in any crime commissioner under subsection (1) has the same powers case, and corruption will occur. It is inevitable in these and is subject to the same requirements as a police and crime arrangements that there will be corruption. We have a commissioner, in accordance with this Act and any other enactment. situation where an acting police and crime commissioner (3) In appointing an acting police and crime commissioner has to be appointed from among the staff, in the under subsection (1), the relevant police and crime panel must stipulate the maximum length of time that the person may hold circumstances I have described, of a police and crime that position. commissioner charged with corruption. In those (4) A person ceases to hold the position of acting police and circumstances what possible confidence could the public crime commissioner— have in those arrangements and in the acting police (a) in the event that the police and crime commissioner is and crime commissioner? able to resume his or her functions under this Act; My amendment seeks to put in place a much more (b) at the end of the maximum term stipulated by the police sensible arrangement which allows the police and crime and crime panel; or panel to appoint a panel member to serve as the acting (c) as otherwise stipulated in this Act or any other police and crime commissioner. That would provide a enactment.” much greater safeguard in terms of public confidence. We had a good debate on this in Committee. I very Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, we come to a much hope that the noble Baroness will be sympathetic very important matter: the appointment of acting to my amendment. police and crime commissioners. Whatever our views on this Bill, one thing is clear: the police and crime Lord Condon: My Lords, I support the amendment. commissioners will have considerable power and authority We discussed this in Committee. I can think of virtually over policing matters in their local police force area. no circumstance where every member of the police 799 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 800

[LORD CONDON] and crime commissioner being suspended. That could and crime panel would be ineligible to stand as acting conceivably take an even longer period to resolve, so commissioner, if the circumstances warranted it. I can there is the potential for this position to be filled by a think of many sets of circumstances where it would be second-hand appointee, as it were, for a long period. inappropriate for every single member of the elected Of course, the whole rationale of the proposal for commissioner’s staff not to be eligible to be the acting police commissioners—flawed in the opinion of many, commissioner for the very circumstances set out by certainly on this side of the House—is that it is necessary the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. If the elected police and to have somebody who is elected and who has a direct crime commissioner has been suspended or has had to mandate for the purposes of exercising the functions stand down temporarily because of allegations of that the Bill confers on the holder of the office. corruption or other behavioural issues, it would not be There will be no such democratic element in the in the public interest for a member of what is going to event that the procedure currently in the Bill is enacted. be, in the Minister’s own words, a very small number There would be no democratic mandate of any kind— of support staff to stand as the acting commissioner if direct or indirect. It is intolerable that that should be there were a serious allegation of corruption against the case when within the police and crime panel, there the commissioner. The Minister has been reasonable will be people with a mandate—not the complete and conciliatory on many of these issues. This is a mandate—that will be claimed for the police and blindingly obvious case where it would be far more crime commissioner in as much as he or she will be appropriate for a suitable member of the police and elected for the whole force area. There will at least be crime panel to act in circumstances where the elected some democratic mandate for those elected local police commissioner is no longer eligible to be councillors who will constitute the majority of members commissioner for a period. of the police and crime panel. In those circumstances I can see no argument for allowing—indeed requiring—the Lord Shipley: My Lords, I add my voice to those appointment of somebody who has no mandate when who support this amendment because I see it as a there are those available within the structure who critical part of the necessary checks and balances on would have at least some mandate. the powers of the commissioner. I say that for two I hope that the Government will think again. The reasons. First, the acting commissioner could be in noble Baroness was unlike her old self, if I may say so, post for eight to nine months—that is, for up to six at the beginning of this debate when her rather surprisingly months as permitted in the Bill, together with the peremptory statements were made. I would like to see period during which a replacement is elected. Frankly, her return to what your Lordships might think is the to have an unelected acting commissioner for that much more acceptable Browning version. length of time is unacceptable as they will set the budget and the precept. Although there is a veto on the precept, nevertheless they will be responsible for Lord Dear: My Lords, we are working against the making the proposal on the precept and they will clock this evening so I will not repeat any of the make a decision about the budget. All those functions powerful arguments adduced so far. I say simply that I should be undertaken by people who have been elected agree with them and support the amendment. as opposed to people who have not been elected. Secondly, the commissioner will have appointed the Lord Harris of Haringey: This is an extremely important staff member to their substantial post. The only power issue and not one that we should rush through simply that the panel will have is over which staff member is because we are fed up. I am sure that I have just as nominated, although they have to bear in mind the much stamina as the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, advice given to them by the commissioner who is although I am not required to take the whole Bill incapacitated. I regard this as an absolutely fundamental through this House. We have to consider and debate issue. The panel must be able to appoint from among these issues seriously because, after all, that is the its own members. Between now and the next stages of function of this House. the Bill, I very much hope that my noble friend the This is a problem of the Government’s own making Minister will make clear to colleagues in the other in that, having decided that police and crime place that this matter is of fundamental concern to a commissioners—and for that matter MOPC in London, large number of Members of your Lordships’ House. although the issues are slightly different—have substantial, individually held powers, the question then comes: Lord Beecham: My Lords, I correct my noble friend what do you do in circumstances when there is a Lord Hunt, who has underestimated the extent of the vacancy or someone needs to act while that happens? precept as a percentage of the local council tax, which The Government cannot have it both ways. They would fall potentially to the acting commissioner to cannot say, “Actually, it will be okay and we can have a levy. It is 11 per cent in England and 15.5 per cent in member of the staff of the police and crime Wales—even greater than my noble friend indicated. I commissioner’s office to act in this function”, and at respectfully suggest that there is potentially an equal the same time say, “The police and crime commissioners underestimate in relation to the period of vacancy. As are so important and will be so busy that they have to I read the Bill, the six-month period after which a work full time on these functions”. What are they vacancy would have to be declared and a new election working full time on? take place, which would add to the length of time in They are presumably setting direction—I am sure any event, arises in connection with incapacity. However, they are not intervening in operational matters because there are other grounds on which a vacancy might the Government are clear that they will not be doing arise. In particular, there is the possibility of a police that. They will be providing guidance on what is 801 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 802 regarded as important to the electorate of that policing drama—for example, when you are in the business of area. Among their duties will be setting the level of dismissing a chief constable—when it will be most local taxation. There is no other area of British public important for the decision to be made by somebody life when something that impacts on taxation is not who is seen to be personally answerable to the electorate. decided by people who are elected. If the noble Baroness Personal answerability to the electorate is the cornerstone wants to interrupt and tell me of one that I have not of what the Bill is supposed to be about: putting in thought of, I would be delighted to receive it. There is place people who are personally accountable to the no such area. entire electorate of a policing area and giving them the This is one of the most important decisions and it is responsibility. That is what is missing. one that will matter very much to the public in the area I will try to predict the Minister’s arguments so that concerned. The task of being an elected politician is to I will not have the temerity to interrupt her later when balance what you believe are the important aspirations she is in her new, forceful mode. No doubt she will that you might have for the public service concerned argue that to have a member of the police and crime and how much money can readily be raised in taxation. panel suddenly taking on this responsibility will blur That is an issue that this and previous Governments the distinction between the police and crime commissioner have struggled with, and those who are actively engaged and the police and crime panel. That may blur a in local government struggle with it each year. You distinction, but is that a more important concern than have to make a judgment and you can make it only if the concern of blurring the line between elected you see both sides of the equation. You see the side of accountability and someone who is appointed to carry expenditure and you see the side of what it will mean out the functions of raising and setting local taxation? in taxation. Only somebody who is elected will have I have to say that it is not a significant argument. that perspective of what the public want in terms of The matter could be addressed in other ways. The services delivered and what they are prepared to buy Government could have come forward with proposals through taxation. The public are not always single-minded that would have enabled a deputy to the directly on these matters. We are all aware of those stresses elected police and crime commissioner to be elected to and strains, which is all the more reason why it must be fulfil those functions. They chose not to do it. They an elected politician who makes that judgment. Only could have created a clear, corporate structure around an elected politician with the authority of being elected the directly elected individual that could have taken on can strike that balance knowing what the electorate of this responsibility—but they chose not to do it. Therefore, the area feel. the problem is of their making. They must not tell the House that it is not an important problem, because it 9pm is vital. I wait to see what will be the reaction in local The difficulty with this is that an official will see communities the first time an acting police and crime this only from the point of view of the need to spend. commissioner—an appointed official—sets the precept Through this practice, the Government are creating a and the level of local taxation, because there should be ratchet effect that will push up public spending. Officials no taxation without representation. will see this as entirely about the need to spend, about how many police officers and services they should Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Before my noble friend have and about how much information technology sits down, perhaps I might ask whether he has given should be purchased. Those will be the sorts of issues any thought to the situation of a police officer in the that they will see, because they will not be individually force who has received money from tabloid journalists. accountable to the public for the level of local taxation. Would that be the responsibility of the chief constable That is why this is such a dangerous precedent. By or of the commissioner? If it would be the responsibility saying that people who do not have elected authority of the commissioner, how would someone standing in will make those judgments, the Government are creating from the panel be able to deal with that? an effect by which only one side of the equation will be seen by those who make the judgment. That is why the Lord Harris of Haringey: If such a circumstance principle of having an elected person carrying out this were to exist—and clearly this is all very much in our role is so important. Their idea is that a chief executive minds at the present time—I suspect that the first or a chief finance officer—before one even considers people who will recognise the level of public concern whether it might be a chief of staff of a police and that is going to exist are going to be individuals with a crime commissioner—will make those judgements. Those personal, direct elected mandate in an area. Under the individuals by their nature will probably never face an Government’s model, where you have an elected police electorate, will never stand as a candidate and will and crime commissioner who has not been disqualified, never have to balance the need to spend against the removed from office or incapacitated, then maybe that need to tax. works and that individual would express concerns. I turn to the other powers of the police and crime There is a fascinating article by Daniel Hannan, commissioner. I am not talking about day-to-day matters, who I know is of enormous influence within the where the understanding of how an electorate feel Conservative Party. He complains, incidentally, that about an issue would be so valuable, but about the the Government have got the nomenclature wrong; extreme, major powers that one hopes will not be they should not be called police and crime commissioners exercised very often—for example, the power to dismiss but should be called sheriffs. He points out that there or appoint a chief constable. Again, one would expect is a historic British tradition of the local sheriff, who is the person concerned to be accountable in quite a not the guy with the five or six-pointed star badge, but different way. It will be at the moments of highest an ancient, semi-feudal office. The City of London 803 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 804

[LORD HARRIS OF HARINGEY] post where the incumbent would have to be politically has sheriffs, so it must be all right, because it is the restricted. If that was in fact the case and it was a same medieval construct that brought us corporations politically restricted post, it would seem to me to be themselves. completely wrong for that person who is politically In those circumstances, the directly elected individual restricted to be able to act up. Am I correct in my —and this again is the point of the Government’s understanding of that? When that deputy post was proposals—is going to be the person who will sense created, I had rather assumed that one of the reasons that this is something of deep concern to the public for it was that the deputy could act up, but having and that something should happen. In the circumstances looked at it, I do not see how that could work. I would of my noble friend Lord Hunt’s amendment, the point be most grateful if the noble Baroness would perhaps about it is that, rather than have some official who has say something about that as well in her reply. never had to face an electorate making those judgments and decisions, it would at least be someone with a Lord Dear: If an allegation of corruption or any personal electoral mandate, albeit not for the whole other crime is made against someone, whoever the force area, but for a part of it, who would be reflecting officer might be, the procedure is well laid down, and I the public concern about such matters and taking the do not think that the Bill would change it in any way. appropriate action in those circumstances. The complaint is made to the chief officer of police, who has to record the complaint, which is automatically Again, I think the Government’s arguments are notified to the Independent Police Complaints flawed and they really need to address what is actually Commission. The IPCC can take over the inquiry or a very serious problem, which would manifest itself supervise it, and discipline remains a matter for the most seriously in circumstances where something is chief officer. If, in the doomsday scenario, the chief seriously going wrong. officer does not deal with the complaint properly, then it is for the police authority or, in this instance, the Lord Soley: My Lords, I will intervene briefly, mainly police and crime commissioner, to step in. I do not to support what my noble friend has said. think the procedure would be changed by the Bill. On the previous intervention, the issue of offers of payment by the media to certain police officers is very Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I fully understand. That much on our minds at the moment. In my view, this was an exceptionally clear explanation. However, if issue is not—and never has been—a really central and the commissioner was not there, and someone was massive problem, but it has always been there. When I standing in for the commissioner, would it be appropriate introduced my Freedom and Responsibility of the for the member of the panel who is standing in for the Press Bill 20-odd years ago, we looked at it then but it commissioner to deal with the issue in the same way as has never been dealt with so I would say it should be the commissioner would? considered, particularly in the structure that Government are setting up. There will be a temptation for certain Lord Dear: In the theoretical instance cited by the police officers to be paid by journalists. Usually, the noble Lord, I do not think it would work that way journalist makes the approach, in my experience, when because the chief officer of police would have to any offer is made. Journalists will talk about what they demonstrate that he had not dealt with the complaint do on a confidential basis—“Do not quote me” and so properly, and that would take some time. We are on—but such things are said. Usually, the sums of talking about six months plus two months before an money are not huge—perhaps £20 for a bit of information election, so by the time that doomsday scenario occurred, and a bit more for another piece of information. you would have an elected individual in place as the We all have two or three concerns about this Bill, PCC, as I understand it. but on this particular aspect there is a danger of what you do if there is an issue of corruption, however Baroness Browning: My Lords, this amendment small it is overall, and how it is dealt with. I hope that seeks to secure the appointment of an acting PCC the Minister will deal with that point, which my noble from the panel rather than from the PCC’s staff. I friend made very adequately from the Front Bench, recognise the points made today and previously in but has just been added to by my noble friend Lord Committee and remain open to suggestions about Harris of Haringey. how we might secure a process of appointment for an acting PCC which provides the safeguards and political neutrality that I have described in previous debates Baroness Henig: Before the Minister replies, I have and which would also provide assurance to a PCC that a brief query that I would like to ask. Between discussing any appointment of a temporary stand-in would not this in Committee and on Report, the Minister has endanger the continued delivery of the police and laid an amendment about deputies, so I think we have crime plan and objectives. I say to the noble Baroness, covered this. I am therefore assuming that it is possible Lady Henig, that I am very happy to consider taking that the noble Baroness might be saying—and it was forward the situation with the deputy, but the deputy certainly what I understood when it was first mentioned— is not politically restricted. that a deputy might assume this role of acting commissioner. Baroness Henig: When I looked at the government When I looked at this in some depth, it seemed to amendments, there was no suggestion that there was me that this deputy post was not one that would be an exemption under Section 2 of the Local Government exempted from Section 2 of the Local Government and Housing Act. If there is no such exemption, is and Housing Act. In other words, it was going to be a that post not restricted? It does not say that. 805 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 806

Baroness Browning: My Lords, I will come back on Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I think the that specific point, but I want to make the point that point has been well put that the powers of the acting although I am not able to accept this amendment, I PCC could be considerable. I apologise to my noble am aware of the genuine concern that has been raised, friend Lord Beecham for underestimating the size of not just on Report but at previous stages, and I am still the precept. It seems to me that it has grown between trying to find alternative solutions. I shall explain to Committee and Report stages. But it involves the the House why I do not feel able to accept this proposal. precept, the budget, the appointment of the chief I understand what is trying to be achieved, but plucking constable and the dismissal of the chief constable. I the acting PCC from an inherently political body is am still concerned that the problem here is the construct not the right solution to this issue. Some may say that I of the Bill. As my noble friend Lord Harris has said, am overplaying the need for political neutrality in once you decide to place on a political individual so these situations, but I point to the debates in the other much power and responsibility, you clearly have a big place and in this House regarding the potential risks problem in deciding what to do if that person is no of politicisation. If, as was put forward, politicisation longer able to carry out the job. is such a key risk, then I would argue that establishing It seems to me that this is a very important issue, an acting commissioner from within a very political which has been debated in the other place as well. The pool of people with a different mandate is the worst of Government clearly still do not have a clue about how all worlds and likely to lead to conflict. The PCC’s to deal with it. The noble Baroness said that she is staff are politically neutral and, in the absence of any concerned about appointing the acting PCC from the other person with a political mandate spanning the police and crime panel, which is an inherently political force area, we envisage that the PCC’s chief executive body. But what is the PCC but politicisation? In terms would be best placed to continue to secure the maintenance of the idea that the staff will be wonderfully neutral, of an effective police force with the close support and what on earth will the staff be doing? I am horrified at involvement of the police and crime panel for the the thought that the PCC will employ an army of interim period. people. It will have one point, which will be to ensure As I have indicated, I cannot agree to the amendment the re-election of the police and crime commissioner. for the reasons I have given, but I keep an open mind What else are they there for but to support that on coming back to the House on this issue with other person? suggestions, and I will consider the proposal put forward The noble Baroness has said that she will take this by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig. On this basis, I away. I am very grateful to her, but can she confirm ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. that that means that she accepts that I can bring an amendment back at Third Reading or that she will? It 9.15 pm cannot be dealt with in the Commons on ping-pong. It Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, one of the Minister’s is impossible to deal with this issue in that way. It has concerns is plucking—I think that that was her term— to be dealt with by this House. We have only a few someone from a political pool. I understand the argument days left. Will the noble Baroness confirm that she is that the commissioner may be independent, but saying that this is a matter that requires further clarification nevertheless he or she will be a politician because it is a and can be brought back at Third Reading? political job. I speak very much off the top of my head, but is it worth Members of the House considering Baroness Browning: My Lords, I will commit to whether an appointment from the panel, but made by bringing it back at Third Reading for clarification. the commissioner, could be a candidate for this? Heads are being shaken across there and there are nods Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, in that case I around here as to this being a possible way forward. am extremely grateful and I beg leave to withdraw my Given the stage of the Bill, I felt that it was worth amendment. throwing this suggestion into the mix. Amendment 229A withdrawn. Baroness Browning: I am grateful to my noble friend, as always, for making a constructive suggestion to resolve this issue. I will, of course, with other points Clause 66 : Police and crime commissioner not to serve that have been raised, take that into consideration. for more than two terms

Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, would an alternative Amendment 230 approach, which would be not unfamiliar from board Moved by Baroness Browning practice, be to establish through the panel a nominations committee, which could provide an element of filter, 230: Clause 66, leave out Clause 66 rather than a direct overtly or covertly political appointment? Amendment 230 agreed.

Baroness Browning: I am grateful to my noble friend. Clause 67 : Disqualification from election or holding I have explained to the House that I am very happy to office as police and crime commissioner: police take this forward without closing the door on it tonight, grounds even though I cannot accept the amendment. I will return to the House at a later stage with this. Amendment 231 not moved. 807 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 808

Clause 69 : Disqualification of person holding office as meetings or read the results of public consultations police and crime commissioner about policing priorities will understand that local people are interested in local issues. One example is Amendments 232 and 232A not moved. born out of recent excellent research undertaken by my home police authority, Lancashire, which revealed Amendment 233 not moved. that most people’s priorities for an elected Lancashire commissioner were going to be tackling quite low-level Clause 74 : Police and crime commissioners not to sit crime. Anti-social behaviour and environmental issues or vote in House of Lords such as littering and abandoned cars were the sort of issues that people wanted commissioners to address.

Amendment 234 I have experience of consulting local people on Moved by Baroness Browning their policing priorities. I used to always give people a list of issues on which we wanted to consult them. It 234: Clause 74, leave out Clause 74 would always include anti-terrorism and other matters Amendment 234 agreed. but the public always said “We do not want anti-terrorist activity to be at the tope of the list because that is a Amendment 234A not moved. national responsibility”. When asked how this should be paid for they said that the Government should pay. They always put national issues at the bottom of the Clause 80 : The strategic policing requirement list. As I went round the county, this happened every time. Amendment 235 Moved by Baroness Henig Even at a time in Lancashire when the Irish situation was quite difficult—and Heysham was quite an important 235: Clause 80, page 49, line 28, at end insert— area for activity which meant that the Lancashire “()Areport is to be prepared annually by Her Majesty’s police were engaged in considerable anti-terrorist activity Inspectorate of Constabulary assessing the extent to which the —none the less people in Lancashire did not want strategic policing requirement has been met in each police area and nationally. their precept to be spent on that kind of activity. That ( ) A copy of this report must be laid before Parliament.” worried me then and it worries me even more now because I think that tendency will be even more Baroness Henig: My Lords, I would like to speak to emphasised in this new regime. Amendments 235, 235A and 239. Can I just point that What I propose as part of the solution to act as a I think there is a misprint on the groupings list? To substantial check and balance on commissioners and clarify, this group should comprise Amendments 235, force actions is to have an annual report to Parliament 235A and 239. by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary. I am Amendment 235 is a response to the widespread sure I do not need to remind the House that it has a fears of your Lordships expressed in earlier debates. It long and distinguished track record in both identifying is also a response to the concerns of policing professionals, and trying to identify the best ways of closing the gap charities and businesses that an elected commissioner in protective services. It is perfectly placed to provide might, for obvious reasons, want to focus on a local an annual guarantee that the gap does not widen in mandate, and the fact that a lot of important, strategic the years to come, or, if it does widen, that it can alert national issues are somewhat hidden from public view. Parliament that this is happening. There is concern that all this might lead to cross-border national or strategic policing issues being relatively My idea of an annual report to Parliament draws neglected under the Government’s proposed new model. on similar recent and successful provisions that have I dare say that we are as one in recognising and enabled Parliament’s concerns about the potential impact wishing to respond in the most effective manner possible of certain Acts to be monitored and to some degree to the ever present and, indeed, growing threats to ameliorated. I am thinking here of the distinguished many of the so-called protective services or national work of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, as the independent and strategic threats, which cross police force borders reviewer of counterterrorism legislation. That is just or require specialist attention. The sort of crimes I one example of a way in which activity could be refer to are such things as cyber crime, threats from monitored, so that Parliament could get some sense of terrorism, extremism, serious and organised crime, how things are working out. I understand that the people trafficking and the more sporadic—potentially amendment would impose a new duty on the inspectorate’s devastating—impact of civil contingencies. There is a already, no doubt, hard pressed resources, but the whole number of national incidents. national issues are so important and the consequences I do not wish to raise an apocalyptic spectre of of us failing to ensure adequate provision for national crimes and emergencies, but it is exactly because strategic policing requirements are so great that an these important issues are not the currency of local, annual assessment would be one way of monitoring political, policing debate that I am concerned that it the situation and measuring what forces are doing. It might not be at the forefront of a commissioner’s would help commissioners in their debate with local attention. There is a risk that commissioners may—for people to emphasise how important these national understandable reasons—not give full weight to national strategic requirements are. It is in that spirit that I beg issues. Anybody who has attended local, public policing to move the amendment. 809 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 810

Baroness Hamwee: I have Amendment 235A in this the Bill. Another key building block is what is going to group. The noble Baroness spoke about matters which be contained in the strategic policing requirement. I raised at the previous stage, mentioning a number of Until we see that, we cannot see what will be the criminal areas which do not respect boundaries. This balance of responsibilities for chief officers of police. I amendment is arguably a little more local, but I have hope that we will at least see a draft of the strategic been asked to raise it by Justice, whose concern is policing requirement before the Bill goes to Third exactly what I articulated at the previous stage and Reading. I had understood that something was due to what the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, has articulated be published some while back for consultation. As far now. It is concerned that the creation of commissioners as I am aware, unless it has appeared very recently, could result in what it calls—it is rather a good phrase—a nothing has yet been published. competitive “race to the bottom” on populist law and order policies. It mentions what one might call the Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble friend served “invisible” crimes, such as domestic violence and crimes with me on the Joint Committee on the national against vulnerable individuals and members of minority security strategy.Will he help the House and contemplate groups, which do not dominate public concern in the how the strategic policing requirement might fit in to way that street crime and anti-social behaviour do. the national security strategy? Would it be part of it or The Bill deals with offences such as terrorism and relate to it in any way? It has certainly not been organised crime, which require a national policing mentioned, as I am sure my noble friend would agree, response. Child neglect has been acknowledged in in our meetings on the national security Joint Committee. another part of the Bill, but aggravated crimes against minorities and a whole list of other matters, with Lord Harris of Haringey: The Government are which I shall not detain the House, may not be a trying to square the circle of putting a very high priority—indeed, it is extremely unlikely—for any priority on national security—the national security commissioner seeking an electoral mandate. strategy, the creation of the National Security Council— I made the point to Justice that we had already and their policies on police and crime commissioners. covered some of this ground, to which it responded Clearly, the potential danger with police and crime rather honestly that it was important to make the commissioners elected with a local mandate to articulate rhetorical point. Although it is almost half-past nine the concerns of local people is that some national on perhaps our last day on Report, I shall make the priorities will not be given the same priority at local point not very rhetorically, not very eloquently, but in level. Now, I am sure that no sensible police and crime quite a heartfelt manner. commissioner would say, “I am not interested in anything being done on counterterrorism”, just as no sensible Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, I do not think police and crime commissioner would say that they that some of the issues that we are discussing in these did not want to see anything done on serious crime. amendments are rhetorical matters. My Amendment 239 However, when there are 41 directly elected individuals, approaches the issues which my noble friend Lady some of whom will fight very fiercely contested local Henig raised in Amendment 235 from a slightly different elections, or be facing fiercely contested re-election, perspective. the question of whether the same priority is given to national security matters as is given to other matters Some 35 hours ago, I sat listening to the Home becomes a real issue. Secretary introduce the new CONTEST strategy for the United Kingdom. That document, which pulls Because of our particularly slow progress as a together the efforts being made to counter terrorism, House on other matters before we arrived at the Bill is fundamental to the issues that we are talking about tonight—we are making rapid progress compared to here in relation to the national strategic policing the progress earlier—I had the opportunity of listening requirement. to a presentation downstairs from Professor Dave Sloggett, a nationally known expert on counterterrorism Of course, this document describes the importance issues. In a rather chilling 15-minute tour d’horizon, of having a national network feeding in to the he simply spelt out the sorts of threats that we face, counterterrorist effort—if we do not have such a national which are contained in the CONTEST strategy, and network, we cannot deliver effective counterterrorist the context in which that is taking place at the moment. policing. That is why it is so important that the Yes, Osama bin Laden has been killed, but that does Government have put the strategic policing requirement not mean that al-Qaeda goes away. We are actually into the Bill. What makes it difficult for us in your seeing a fragmentation and each of the different affiliates Lordships’ House to consider these matters tonight is going their own way, each presenting slightly different that, of course, no one, as far as I am aware—certainly threats. none of your Lordships—has yet seen the strategic We have Gaddafi in Libya, who has made an explicit policing requirement, or a draft thereof. threat of suicide bombers in European cities; and there is the changing situation in Northern Ireland, 9.30 pm where we have just seen two nights of sustained rioting When I have listened to senior police officers, they and serious disorder. Again, the fact that that has not say that there are a number of building blocks for impinged significantly on the rest of the country makes anyone to understand how this legislation will work. it all the more likely that there will be an aspiration for One of those building blocks is the memorandum that it do so. We have the challenges of the Olympics. In we have seen—the Minister has promised us that she moving her amendment, my noble friend Lady Henig will come back to us on whether that will be part of referred to issues around cyber crime, and it is interesting 811 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 812

[LORD HARRIS OF HARINGEY] national overview, if you take the position that has that the CONTEST strategy for the first time refers to been put forward by my noble friend Lady Henig, of the cyber terrorist threat. These are issues in which what is going on and where there may be weaknesses. local police forces have got to play their part; they Whether that will result in a formal intervention by have got to raise their game. They are not necessarily the Home Secretary or a less formal intervention with issues which will immediately emerge as the priority the chief officer of police and the elected politician for the elected police and crime commissioner in every who leads those areas applying pressure, I do not part of the country, yet every part of the country is think really matters. What is important is that the potentially affected. Home Secretary has that information and has it as a Let us consider the way in which Roshonara Choudhry tool. Further, it is important that the locally elected self-radicalised herself, dropped out of her university individual—the police and crime commissioner or the course and, having listened to speeches and read MOPC in London—is aware of where they stand in material on the internet, decided that an appropriate terms of meeting the strategic policing requirement. thing for her to do to take forward the cause would They may well have a rose-tinted view of what the be to assassinate a British Member of Parliament. level of problem is or what needs to be done. This She then researched Members of Parliament on gives them that information and the opportunity to TheyWorkForYou.com and purchased two kitchen decide. I find it extraordinary that there is nothing in knives. Fortunately for Stephen Timms, a Member of this Bill about monitoring how the strategic policing Parliament in the other place, she decided on the day requirement is to be met, how it is to be achieved and that it was easier to conceal in her clothing the shorter what is to be done about it. of the knives. That is an example of the kind of threat These amendments are put forward in a genuine we face. attempt not just to assist the Government to achieve Not so long ago an individual in the south-west of their objectives, which as you know are constantly at the country seriously injured himself in an attempt to the forefront of our thoughts on this side of the blow up a restaurant in which families with young House, but because it is critically and crucially important children were having meals. Again, he was an individual for the national security of this country and indeed for who, as far as we know, was not significantly connected our ability to deal with serious and organised crime. to any of the networks. It will be the responsibility of local policing, local Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I hope I will be special branches and local intelligence to pick up on forgiven for making a short intervention in support of these issues. If you get to a stage where this is seen as the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Henig not the responsibility of a local police force, your and indeed in support of the amendment of the noble ability to combat these threats will be severely weakened. Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, as to its principle. That is why the strategic policing requirement is so This Bill is to a great extent about the accountability important. of the police. The whole purpose of the Government’s policy, which I applaud, is to make the police more It is also important in the context of serious and accountable to the public. The noble Baroness, Lady organised crime because we all know that if you do Henig, is attempting to do precisely that—to give not maintain consistent and strong pressure on the visible evidence of that accountability to enable the issues around serious and organised crime, gradually public to judge from a document how accountable the the quality of community life in all kinds of areas will police are in terms of the strategic policing requirement. begin to deteriorate—and yet this will not be an The noble Baroness referred to the work of the immediate priority for many police and crime independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, which I commissioners. used to be. The independent reviewer is required to The Government have, properly, written into the produce at least two reports every year which enable Bill a strategic policing requirement. However, they Members of both Houses, who use the reports extensively, have not specified how it will be enforced and how and others to judge the performance of the authorities they will make sure that it is met in every force area. in relation to counterterrorism law. We have an My noble friend Lady Henig has tabled an amendment independent reviewer of the relatively new Northern which would require Her Majesty’s Inspectorate to Ireland provisions for what is now public order law in produce a report on an annual basis and lay it before Northern Ireland. This role has been carried out since Parliament to assess how the strategic policing requirement it was introduced by Mr Robert Whalley. He has been is working. My amendment has a different focus; it very successful in ensuring that those important parts seeks to consider what happens in each individual force of the law he reviews in Northern Ireland, which can area. It does not specify that the report should be laid prove, as we have seen in the past couple of days, very before Parliament because sometimes the content of controversial in the context of every day life, are that report in relation to the strength, willingness and accounted for in the legislative assembly of Northern effectiveness of local forces in combating terrorism Ireland and in this Parliament. and serious and organised crime would best not be Following the legislation in relation to the UN publicly shared. money-laundering provisions for named terrorist suspects, I know that the Home Office does not want to be we introduced recently an independent review which is top-down on all kinds of issues, but on these issues it going to be carried out, as I understand it, by David needs to be top-down, which is why it has postulated a Anderson QC, who succeeded me as independent strategic policing requirement. This will give the Home reviewer of terrorism legislation. There again, we will Secretary a snapshot for each police force area and a have a report which will deal with issues relating to a 813 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 814 part of the strategic policing requirement. Those who international—scale? Why do we not put in something carry out such roles from time to time have been asked about cybercrime or identity theft? I shall sit down ad hoc to carry out reports which call to account those soon because I want to brief, but my point is that we who have been involved in aspects of counterterrorism should not drop into the trap of being overprescriptive. and related policing. Valid though all the comments from speakers so far Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary has a have been, it is asking the Bill to accept too much. distinguished and respected record of impartiality. It has been able to secure changes in policing practice Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, this has been around the country by the kindly method of report, a very interesting debate. I understand what the noble constructive criticism and engaging, sometimes, the Lord, Lord Dear, is saying about the risks of support of those in both Houses of Parliament. It overprescription. However, we are talking about strategic seems to me that there is nothing to be lost and policing requirements. This is a matter of national potentially much to be gained from the transparency importance. My noble friends have argued very well of a report by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, for their respective amendments. particularly given the importance of the strategic policing No election will be won by a police and crime requirement, which has been amply described during commissioner on issues to do with national policing. this short debate, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord They will be won on local manifestos. Almost every Harris. candidate will promise more police on the beat. The I take issue with the noble Lord on only one detail. question will be an auction over just how many police He suggested that it might be difficult to write a report will be on the beat at any one time. That is fair enough that would be published that engaged with matters of and clearly responds to a general view held by many national security that are best left unsaid. I can tell the members of the public, who like the police to be noble Lord that there are ways of doing this; it can be visible. I do not argue with that. However, it will have done. With the co-operation, which is always available, some consequences. It will put the squeeze on the of the security services in particular, there are ways of specialist units that the police forces have developed. It writing reports that do not damage national security will also put the squeeze on each force’s responsibility but deal fully with all the principles that need to be to the national policing requirement. In some way or discussed. other, without being wholly prescriptive, we need to I therefore believe that this is a constructive proposal find a way in which to reassure Parliament that the and I hope to hear that the Minister will also allow national strategic policing requirement will be carried this matter further consideration with a view to something out as effectively as possible. It is not just terrorism; it being brought forward at Third Reading. is also about serious organised crime. My noble friends Lord Harris and Lord Foulkes were absolutely right 9.45 pm to develop the argument about the threats that we face. We are in no position today to be complacent Lord Dear: My Lords, I wonder if I might put a about those threats. different gloss on the matters that we are debating in In their approach to the Bill the Government have this group of amendments. We know that there is a really rather pooh-poohed the current tripartite strong likelihood that there will be a national crime relationship. They have criticised police authorities for agency some time in the next calendar year. We already a lack of visibility—although I have yet to hear any have a discussion document about that. It refers to conclusive evidence put forward on why they ought to tasking, which I am confidently assured means direction be visible. Furthermore, they believe that the tripartite from the centre. That means that there is bound to be arrangement is at fault because Home Secretaries have tension between local and national issues, which is a indulged in too much target-making. There will be a good thing. It is democracy in action. It is inevitable debate about targets and their place but there should that the inspectorate will become involved, at the be no doubt that in the end the Home Secretary is behest of local or national figures. That is what it is accountable to Parliament and ought to be accountable there for and that is my experience, having served in it to Parliament for national policing strategy and the for more than five years, albeit some time ago. effectiveness of police forces in making a contribution I am concerned that the Bill is in grave danger of to that strategy. becoming overprescriptive. We are covering detail, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dear, about the which is good as far as it goes. However, to put it in the implications of the national crime agency. I also agree Bill rather than take it as a matter of good sense or with him that some tension will be constructive—but encompass it in regulation stretches too far the issue tension could also be destructive. In the Bill we see of what should be in the Bill. that the requirement in relation to the strategic policing I shall refer to Amendment 235A. Having followed requirement is placed on chief officers of police. In an all-encompassing definition of national crime, we exercising the functions, they must have regard to the are then invited to put in something about children, strategic policing requirement. In other words, they can vulnerable adults, members of minority groups and so ignore it, because “have regard to” is a very weak use on. I do not at all underestimate the threat to those of parliamentary language. They have to have regard to groups; terrible things are done to and with them. it, alongside other matters that are placed in the Bill. However, if we are to pick out those groups, why do We then look to page 2 of the Bill and see that in we not put in something about drugs, counterterrorism, Clause 1(4) that the, and the theft of high-value motor vehicles and plant, “police and crime commissioner must … hold the chief constable all of which happen on a European—if not a more to account for”, 815 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 816

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] they can be properly considered by this House. It is the a series of actions, but also, normal role of this House to give proper consideration “the exercise of the duty under section 37A(2) of the Police to these amendments, and I hope that someone will Act 1996 (duty to have regard to strategic policing requirement)”. find out when the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, will All we have in statute is a requirement on the police return, as she promised an hour and a half ago, and and crime commissioner to hold the chief constable to tell the House what the programme is going to be. If account. Then we find that the actual requirement is not, people are hanging on here without any knowledge simply to have regard to. What if the police and about what is going to happen. commissioner does not effectively hold the chief constable to account? What if the chief constable has regard to Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I will do my but does not take the necessary action? Where are the best to get that information to the House as soon as safeguards and sanctions? There are none. That is possible. really our concern. As I said, it is part of the intention of this Bill to The amendments seem to be helpful and constructive. build in some constructive tensions between the local My noble friend Lady Henig asks for a report to be and the national. We all understand that policing is a prepared assessing the extent to which the strategic constant dialogue between local, regional and national, policing requirement has been met in each police area. although I suggest to the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, That does not seem overprescriptive; it is simply giving that things have changed a great deal in the last 20 or an assurance to Parliament that there will be a process 30 years. Certainly when I was a candidate in Manchester by which Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary many years ago, there was a small Special Branch that has a means of looking at each police force area and dealt with the IRA, but there were not the cross-cutting reporting on how they are doing in their contribution collaborative units that we now see across the north of to the strategic policing requirement. England—drugs units, organised crime units and My noble friend Lord Harris has another constructive counterterrorism units, which are now part of the amendment around the inspection programme. In our network in which our police forces co-operate with first debate the Minister was very helpful, although I each other. My perspective on policing is a West did not really follow her arguments. She was very Yorkshire one, but the Yorkshire Post, the Bradford constructive in being willing to engage in the area of Telegraph & Argus and the local radio stations do not the acting police and crime commissioner. Nothing is simply focus on local crime, partly because local and more important than the national strategic policing national issues, such as parades by the English Defence requirement. I hope that the noble Lord, who, I suspect, League and drugs heists in which the drugs have just is going to respond to the amendment, will be able to been imported from some other country, are very be as constructive as his noble friend. much part of the local scene. Therefore I think that the widespread fears suggested by the noble Baroness may Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, before the be exaggerated. Minister replies to the debate, he will recall that nearly Clause 80 sets out the strategic policing requirement, an hour and a half ago the government Chief Whip which is an update of the Police Act 1996, as noble indicated that she would return speedily with a new Lords have said. That strategic policing requirement is timetable for this Bill to propose to the House. We are now being extensively consulted on by the Secretary of now approaching the normal time of rising of this State, ACPO, the Association of Police Authorities, House. I hope that the Minister will give an indication the Metropolitan Police service and others. Clearly as to when the government Chief Whip will do us the that is going to be a major part— courtesy of returning to indicate what the new timetable for this Bill will be. Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, while I am fascinated to hear that this consultation is taking Lord Wallace of Saltaire: As always, the noble place, on the last occasion on which I saw representatives Lord, Lord Foulkes, is immensely helpful in his of the Association of Chief Police Officers—I believe contribution to debates. I well recall his many constructive it was last week—they had not yet seen a draft of this contributions to the Parliamentary Voting System and document, so I am slightly bemused by that. Parliament Constituencies Bill in an earlier period. has to see it. We cannot understand what the balance It is part of the intention of this Bill to build in is going to be between the local and the national some constructive tensions between the local and the unless we can see that document, even in draft state, national— and understand it. 10 pm Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I am grateful to the Minister, but this is a serious point. A number of Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, Clause 80 sets Members of this House have an interest in subsequent out in some detail the principles of the strategic policing amendments and are genuinely concerned that there requirement. It is there in the Bill. There is a question should be a proper debate on the Bill because some of how much detail we want to write into the Bill, but very serious and important amendments are coming Clause 80 sets out the fundamentals of that requirement. up. They do not know what is going to happen. They Clause 96 adds to that the backstop power for the do not know whether these amendments are going to Secretary of State to intervene if, in her opinion, local be considered at three o’clock, four o’clock or five o’clock police forces are not paying sufficient attention to the in the morning or, more sensibly, on another day when strategic policing requirement. 817 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 818

I add that “have regard to” is not, as has been looking at potentially vulnerable individuals, at people suggested, a weak statement. It is a commonly used who may be radicalised and at areas where drugs are phrase for a strong and appropriate duty, which places being dealt or supplied. That feeds into a national an obligation on the chief officer and the PCC to intelligence chain and is part of what we all understand comply with the strategic policing requirement. In as policing. policing terms, the duty to have regard has previously The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, stressed the applied, for example, to codes of practice that have importance of criminal activities which, in some cases, been used to implement a national intelligence model do not respect boundaries. She also talked about the across all 43 police forces in England and Wales, to invisible crimes of domestic violence, vulnerable adults, codify the use of police firearms and to ensure compliance child neglect and aggravated crimes against minorities. with the IPCC statutory guidance on handling police Again, I have sat in on MAPPA groups—multi-agency complaints, which suggests that this is a widely used areas—where police are working with other local social and strong duty. services and non-governmental organisations, precisely to look at those invisible crimes. Part of the way in Lord Harris of Haringey: The Minister says that which attention is drawn to these crimes is by local this is intended to be a strong requirement. Clause 80, voluntary organisations working with police and other which he referred to, says, agencies at the local level. In the nature of these cases, “must, from time to time, issue a document”. much domestic violence and child neglect is essentially What I am trying to clarify is: how can we see what the local. Those elements which are not local—child impact of that strong requirement is unless we know trafficking, sexual abuse, online sexual exploitation—are what the Government’s intentions are for the document’s dealt with now increasingly by the Child Exploitation contents? That is not asking to have the wording of and Online Protection Centre and other forms of the strategic policing requirement written into the Bill. collaboration between local police forces and national The Bill already says that there will be such a document, agencies, which indeed will feed into the national but none of us have seen one. The Minister has talked crime agency when that is developed. Again, in this about consultations but as far as I am aware—I wait case there is not a tension but a thread between local to be corrected—last week no full-touch document violence, local disorder, local abuse, and those more had been circulated for comments, despite the expectations limited elements in which children are trafficked or set out in here. abused and the internet is used for these purposes. I can assure the noble Baroness that this does not need Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I promise to get back to to be written again into the Bill. Having said that, I the noble Lord as soon as possible with an update of hope that I have given sufficient assurance to those where we now are on that. I stress that it is normal who tabled these amendments to enable them not to practice to pass legislation without all the details of press them. the regulations being tied up before that Act is passed, because ongoing negotiations about how the regulations will be carried through are often under way. I am Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, before the noble assured that negotiations and consultations on the Lord sits down and with the leave of the House, I say strategic policing requirement are well under way. that the thrust of the arguments is one which I made at the last stage. The amendments themselves are about Lord Harris of Haringey: The Minister talks about mechanisms. Can my noble friend on the Front Bench regulations but I did not actually think that the strategic help the House as to whether it is necessary to spell policing requirement was going to be put in regulations. out these mechanisms? It seems that noble Lords I thought it was simply going to be a document. There opposite are seeking mechanisms to assist the Secretary have been plenty of occasions when the document has of State—but does the Secretary of State actually been so pivotal that Parliament has been advised of need to have the legislative powers? As I read these, I what the content of regulations will be. Draft regulations would have thought that it was possible for her to take have been circulated so that people can understand steps, certainly in one of these amendments, and to what their scope is. As I understand it, this is regarded have considerable influence to ensure that the inspectorate as one of the central planks in determining what is undertakes the others. To that extent, these amendments local and what is national. I believe that Parliament are not necessary.However, the noble Lord has addressed should therefore see this document in draft form before the arguments rather than the amendments, and if I we can move forward. may say so, so have the noble Lords pressing the amendments. I hope my noble friend may be able to Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I promise to get back to help the House on that. the noble Lord with a situation report, certainly by the time we come to Third Reading. On Clause 96, I am Lord Wallace of Saltaire: There was a tension also also informed that the backstop power available to the about how much detail one writes into the Bill. We Secretary of State to intervene where forces are not spent some time on these amendments with people having sufficient regard to national priorities has never wanting reassurance that there should be much more been used. It is there as a backstop power but police detail in the Bill than is required of them. forces, chief constables and police authorities have necessarily recognised that there is a thread between neighbourhood policing and local, regional and national Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: With the greatest respect priorities. The neighbourhood police groups which I to noble Lords, a requirement for HMIC to publish a have been out with in Leeds and Bradford are also report annually is not a target; it is simply information 819 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 820

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] We have heard a lot about commissioners. I am sure to Parliament. Surely the Minister is prepared to consider that good commissioners will act as the Minister thinks that. As I have said, it is a very short time until Third they will; it is the not-so-good commissioners and the Reading, but will he take this back without commitment areas where local people may be let down which are and consider whether some reassurance might be made the problem. I do not see that this measure is such a lot to Parliament on this? to ask for when reports are prepared in many areas of our national life. Why cannot they be prepared by the Lord Wallace of Saltaire: In the next group of inspectorate in this area? I do not understand why this amendments we will move on to HMIC, and it is part is such a novel suggestion. I keep being pushed to of the requirement for HMIC that it will publish press amendments to a Division, but I really would reports for the public, so HMIC will be publishing like to test the opinion of the House on this matter. regular reports. The question of whether it should have to publish reports on a regular basis for Parliament 10.11 pm is an additional thing of which I am not persuaded. I will certainly consult further but I am not currently Division on Amendment 235 persuaded that that is a necessary addition. Many years ago I took part in a debate which required the Contents 54; Not-Contents 151. Government to report to Parliament twice a year on developments in the European Union so that there Amendment 235 disagreed. could be a six-monthly debate. Those reports have continued to be published and somewhere in my attic I Division No. 3 have a number of them. I am a little doubtful about additional reports. CONTENTS Bannside, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: Surely the Minister will Bassam of Brighton, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. know from the debate that we have had on the European [Teller] Jones of Whitchurch, B. Bill that many noble Lords in this House talk of little Beecham, L. Kilclooney, L. else. Berkeley, L. Kingsmill, B. Bilston, L. Layard, L. Boyd of Duncansby, L. Liddle, L. Lord Harris of Haringey: Before Minister comes Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. back on this, I say that this is not just about whether or McAvoy, L. Brookman, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Browne of Ladyton, L. not this is a document published for Parliament; it is Maxton, L. Campbell-Savours, L. about ensuring that there is a focus on the strategic O’Loan, B. policing requirement. That is something which the Carlile of Berriew, L. Crawley, B. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Government have not yet conceded. While I am on my Davies of Stamford, L. Paisley of St George’s, B. feet, and to prevent me getting up again, can he tell us Deech, B. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. what he actually means by a situation report? Does Desai, L. Rosser, L. that mean that when we get to Third Reading which, Dubs, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. as far as I am aware, is still only a few days away, we Elder, L. Sawyer, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Sewel, L. will have in front of us some idea as to what this Faulkner of Worcester, L. Simon, V. document will look like? Finlay of Llandaff, B. Smith of Basildon, B. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Soley, L. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I had not Gould of Potternewton, B. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. promised to give the detail of the strategic policing Grantchester, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. requirement, which is currently under negotiation. I Harris of Haringey, L. Thornton, B. Harris of Richmond, B. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] am happy to give noble Lords a situation report on Haworth, L. Turnberg, L. where negotiations stand regarding the definition of Henig, B. Whitty, L. the strategic policing requirement. That is the most that I can do. NOT CONTENTS Baroness Henig: My Lords, I have listened closely Addington, L. Bridgeman, V. Alderdice, L. Brinton, B. to everything that has been said. I thank noble Lords Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, who have participated in this debate. I have listened Ashdown of Norton-sub- L. very carefully to the Minister. I agree that under the Hamdon, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. present system there is a recognised way of reconciling Astor, V. Browning, B. local and national police authorities; I do not think Astor of Hever, L. Burnett, L. that is in doubt. The problem is that we are embarking Attlee, E. Byford, B. on a completely new structure of police governance. Barker, B. Cathcart, E. Benjamin, B. Chadlington, L. Everything that we are used to is being changed, and Berridge, B. Clement-Jones, L. not incrementally but quite radically. I think that we Best, L. Colwyn, L. all accept that. My amendment seeks to reassure the Bew, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. public, given that we are faced with this completely Black of Brentwood, L. Cumberlege, B. new and untried system. We owe it to the public to Blackwell, L. De Mauley, L. Blencathra, L. Dear, L. reassure them that under the new system cross-border Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Denham, L. crime, serious criminal issues and national crime will B. Dixon-Smith, L. be tackled by local forces. Boswell of Aynho, L. Dobbs, L. 821 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 822

D’Souza, B. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Clearly it is important that the House is able to scrutinise Dundee, E. Mar and Kellie, E. legislation effectively: we all want to work towards Dykes, L. Marland, L. that end. On the other hand, the House also tries to Eaton, B. Marlesford, L. work in the most efficient manner to deliver government Eden of Winton, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Empey, L. Morris of Bolton, B. business in a better state than it receives it. Even the Falkner of Margravine, B. Northover, B. late Division that we have just had clearly was intended Faulks, L. Norton of Louth, L. to produce that end—and although the noble Baroness, Feldman of Elstree, L. O’Cathain, B. Lady Henig, may not have got the result she wanted, I Fellowes of West Stafford, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Fink, L. know that she was testing the opinion of the House Pannick, L. Flight, L. from the right motives. Fookes, B. Parminter, B. Perry of Southwark, B. It has been agreed through the usual channels that Fraser of Carmyllie, L. we will conclude business tonight at approximately Freud, L. Ramsbotham, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Randerson, B. 11 am. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Rawlings, B. Garel-Jones, L. Razzall, L. Noble Lords: Oh! Geddes, L. Reay, L. German, L. Rennard, L. Baroness Anelay of St Johns: Well, there you are—that Glenarthur, L. Risby, L. Gold, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. is what I really want to do. One minute’s break between Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. today and tomorrow would give us enough time for Grey-Thompson, B. Sassoon, L. Prayers. My Lords, in fact it will be 11 pm. We would Hamwee, B. Scott of Needham Market, B. like to make further progress on an amendment or two Hanham, B. Seccombe, B. and conclude as close to 11 pm as possible. The Henley, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Heyhoe Flint, B. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. agreement is that tomorrow morning after Questions Higgins, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. we will start on the Report stage of the police Bill. We Hill of Oareford, L. Shaw of Northstead, L. will continue until we have concluded Report and then Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Shipley, L. go back to consideration of the published business, L. Shrewsbury, E. which is the Committee stage of the Localism Bill. Home, E. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Howard of Rising, L. Spicer, L. This has an implication for consideration of matters Howe, E. Stedman-Scott, B. at Third Reading. The Minister has already made it Howell of Guildford, L. Stewartby, L. clear that she is prepared to consider matters at Third Hunt of Wirral, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Reading and I know that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt Hussein-Ece, B. Stowell of Beeston, B. of Kings Heath, has already signalled that he has at James of Blackheath, L. Strasburger, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Strathclyde, L. least one serious matter that he wishes to consider. It is Jenkin of Roding, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. therefore important that we maintain our normal tradition Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Tebbit, L. of having the usual intervals between stages. That can Knight of Collingtree, B. Thomas of Gresford, L. be achieved by the Government rearranging their business Kramer, B. Tope, L. next week so that the Third Reading of this Bill will be Lamont of Lerwick, L. True, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Tyler, L. taken on Wednesday instead of Tuesday—so we have Lawson of Blaby, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. the usual intervals—then after the Third Reading of Lee of Trafford, L. Ullswater, V. this Bill on Wednesday we would continue in Committee Lexden, L. Verma, B. on the Localism Bill. Lingfield, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Wallace of Tankerness, L. I know that the usual channels will continue to have Loomba, L. Walmsley, B. discussions tomorrow afternoon, when we are able to Luke, L. Wasserman, L. see the progress of business, to work for the best of the Lyell, L. Wheatcroft, B. House. McColl of Dulwich, L. Wilcox, B. Macdonald of River Glaven, Williams of Crosby, B. L. Williamson of Horton, L. Lord Bassam of Brighton: Briefly, I thank the noble MacGregor of Pulham Willis of Knaresborough, L. Baroness, Lady Anelay, for the way that she has Market, L. Wolfson of Aspley Guise, L. approached this and for her gracious manner in putting Maddock, B. Younger of Leckie, V. something before the House which I am sure the whole House will feel able to support. 10.23 pm The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, I am much relieved The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes): Amendment 235A that I was interrupted, because Amendment 235A is in is in the name of Baroness Henig. the name of Baroness Hamwee. Amendment 236 is grouped with Amendment 235, Amendment 235A not moved. on which we have just had a Division.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I nearly Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: With the greatest respect, transgressed by being on my feet when the Deputy Speaker it was pointed out earlier that there is a misprint in the was on his feet, which would have been an heinous grouping list. My noble friend made it clear that there crime at any time, but particularly at 10.23 pm. is a group starting Amendments 236, 237 and 238. As promised earlier this evening, there have been discussions in the usual channels, which reached mutual The Deputy Speaker: I beg your Lordships’ pardon. agreement with regard to the progress of business. That information had not reached me. 823 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 824

Clause 85 : Functions of HMIC oversee and apportion their part of the policing grant and the precept. However, four years is a long time in Amendment 236 politics and a lot of money could have been spent before the public place a cross and deliver a verdict. Moved by Baroness Henig Who in the mean time, except HMIC, will inform the 236: Clause 85, page 52, line 28, at end insert— public about how effectively or otherwise commissioners “(2A) The inspectors of constabulary may carry out an inspection have spent their money? I am reluctant to raise once of, and report to the Secretary of State on, the performance by a again the spectre of corporations sole and, still less, police and crime commissioner or a police and crime panel of its the frankly frightening sight of not one but two functions or of any particular function or functions.” corporations sole with two auditable bodies and Baroness Henig: I rise to speak to three amendments, consequentially opaque arrangements for overseeing which, taken together, seek to preserve the checks and public spending in policing. The only reason I want to balances and independent assessment of performance mention them is that I think that because of that within the current system that the Government have situation there will be a need for more, not less, drawn on so heavily in creating their case for change; accountability. Inspection of the new regime, when namely, the excellent work of Her Majesty’s Inspectorate compared to what we have presently, will be more of Constabulary. important because of the arrangements that are being set up. I believe that these areas need to be opened up Right at the beginning of our work on the Bill, the to the public. Expertise should not be excluded. It is Government told us that HMIC unearthed the evidence essential for public trust and confidence in the police for the failings of the present system, which necessitated that every penny of the policing pound is considered the abolition of police authorities as quickly as possible. by those charged with inspecting and fostering Indeed, in the absence of an analysis of the results of improvement. That is why I think that the Government the Home Office’s public consultation on their reform should reinsert full rights of inspection for HMIC and proposals and the rather limited utility of a Cabinet the ability of the local policing body and panel to call Office report now five or six years old, the findings of in inspectors on a regular basis. HMIC’s inspections of 22 police authorities could be charitably described as the nearest thing the Government I shall briefly say something about the idea that the have for an evidence base on which they can build the panel should have to pay the cost of the inspections. case for change—at least as far as the suggested evidence That is a tremendous disincentive to having inspections. for the weaknesses of the old system goes. I could not help thinking that if existing police authorities When it comes to this clause of the Bill, it very had to pay for inspections they would have definitely much surprised me—and may well surprise many of seized on that as a reason not to be inspected, particularly your Lordships—that, far from the excellent work of when it is those inspections that justify the present Her Majesty’s inspectorate being valued and taken abolition of police authorities. Slightly at a tangent, I forward into the new era of elected accountability, it mention that in those last inspections of police has been relegated to the sidelines. In fact, the inspectorate authorities—there have been 22 in the past few months— is no longer going to be called upon to inspect the not one authority failed an Audit Commission or whole range of policing accountability but is going to HMIC inspection and more than 97 per cent of HMIC’s be focused on forces. 110 individual assessment scores for police authorities’ performance were excellent, good or adequate, which I I find this a little odd. We are told that commissioners think is very reasonable. It is certainly a record of and their panels are the necessary drivers of change, achievement that compares favourably with local the fulcrums on which the hopes of reforms are going government. In fact, police authorities consistently to be founded. They are going to have the role in and significantly outperform local authorities in Audit driving efficiency at local level, not the Home Office Commission inspections of their use of resources. I do from the centre any more. Yet these crucial new not feel that inspections should have to be paid for in transformative individuals and bodies are not to be this way by those who are being inspected—hence my subject to the same level of inspection in the public Amendment 238 to delete this provision. interest as police authorities. I find this quite strange. Surely it cannot be right to limit the scope of inspectors In relation to police authorities’ financial management, who could provide valuable, impartial and expert the inspectorate’s report stated: information to the public on complex areas of policing “Over the last ten years, forces and authorities have delivered and police finance, including the efficiency of those efficiency improvements to meet Government targets. Between overseeing that finance. Budgets are going to be tight 2004 and 2008, forces and authorities declared just over £1.5 billion in the next few years and the new system is going to be of efficiency improvements against a target of just over £1 billion”. very costly. I find it hard to believe in the new system, I am sure we would want such efficiency improvements which many of us think will increase costs. These costs to continue into the new regime. Indeed, the public will add up and may very well eat into the policing would expect commissioners on £120,000 or more a budget. It is therefore not unreasonable that inspections year to be driving and delivering even greater efficiencies should be able to oversee how those costs are running than their predecessor police authorities. I therefore and whether things are operating reasonably. feel that the public would want the inspectorate to give them the relevant comparative information rather than 10.30 pm leave it to the media to report, or not, as they see fit. I know, because we have already had this argument, For all these reasons, it seems to me that there should that the Government will be quick to remind me that be regular inspections of commissioners and of panels. the ballot box will be the judge of how commissioners I see no reason why there should not be. I beg to move. 825 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 826

Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, I have put It would seem to be neglect approaching a dereliction my name to Amendments 236, 237 and 238 which of the Government’s duty to do otherwise. We were tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig. We have proposed that this apparently ill suited new are being asked to support nothing less than a revolution subsection (2BB) should be replaced by a positive power in policing governance in the absence of any evidence for the panel that it should be able at any time to base on which the benefits of such drastic changes are request that HMIC carry out an inspection of the set and in the absence of any public clamour for costly PCC. reform—indeed, the opposite. We are being told that No one will be more aware of the PCC’s action or these changes will not be piloted or introduced in inaction in some areas than the police and crime panel stages since reform is urgent and cannot possibly wait. since it is designed as her or his safeguard and strict I beg to differ on all those counts. check and balance. However, while the panel will be However, if we are to press ahead with such an equipped to oversee the PCC in most areas, it may feel untried system, I am absolutely determined that we that there are issues on which it lacks a professional should do our duty to ensure that all means possible operational judgment on a matter of controversy. In are employed to insert safeguards into the Bill. HMIC such circumstances, it may not be appropriate to pull inspections seem to me to be a bedrock of any such the chief constable into what could amount to a safeguards against potential pitfalls and I share the difference of opinion with the PCC. Who then can the high regard in which Sir Denis O’Connor, Her Majesty’s panel turn to for that necessary professional advice Chief Inspector of Constabulary, is held, together and impartial opinion? with his extremely able team. Finally, there should be a direct and clear ability, In short, HMIC inspections are at times a difficult and a responsibility on the panel, to be able to involve and challenging process for those undergoing them HMIC appropriately. HMIC could, of course, take a and they have repeatedly yielded the improvement view that it was being asked to get involved in a petty across policing, which is at the heart of HMIC’s or irrelevant matter and could decline the invitation. mission. So I am left, frankly, bemused when the However, we anticipate that this referral mechanism to Government propose not to expand but to constrict HMIC will provide a helpful bridge to practical the use of this valuable tool for improvement. It makes improvement for many forces facing difficulty in the no sense at all effectively to exclude these completely future, as it so often has in the past. new systems of oversight from an inspection regime when that regime has already helped the current system Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, all I would to improve. like to say on the amendment is that we have discussed Next, I shall draw out the intention of Amendment 238, in previous debates the inconsistency between different which removes the proposed new obligation on the parts of government in relation to inspection. I must local policing body to reimburse HMIC for the costs declare my interest again as chair of an NHS foundation of its inspection. We have heard what the noble Baroness, trust and as a consultant trainer in the NHS. NHS Lady Henig, thinks of that. We have sought to replace foundation trusts, which the Government support, this with a statement that the panel may request that were meant to be given much more freedom than HMIC conducts an inspection if its concerns warrant other NHS bodies but they are still subject to the such an intervention. I am unaware of any other tender mercies of a regulator called Monitor. For the inspection regime in which those delivering a public life of me, I cannot see why the Government have service, or who invite in or are made the subject of an taken such a light-rein approach to the construct in inspection in the interests of public trust and confidence the Bill when we have such an excellent inspectorate in in their work, are expected directly to cover the costs the form of HMIC. These amendments seem wholly of their inspection. Surely, in some cases an inspection constructive. By the grace of the usual channels, we will be called amidst quite serious financial issues or have been given a little extra time—a day—to consider challenges. This idea that those opening themselves up these matters. Is this not a matter which the Government to scrutiny in the public interest must pay for the cost might take back and consider? of such transparency seems decidedly odd to me, even bearing in mind the parlous state of Home Office Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, with regard to fees, I finances at the present time. do not know whether my noble friend is in a position It also seems to me to be the most bizarre disincentive to give any comparables, but I think that local authorities to those on the panel or on the commissioner’s staff have to pay—or have had to pay—for Audit Commission who are considering whistleblowing on what might be inspections and that it is the Audit Commission that significant issues of public interest or concern. A has set the rates. There must be comparables. Maybe whistleblower or concerned panel member or local there are comparables which go either way; I do not policing body member would have to gain pre-emptive know. approval for the costs of a possible investigation from someone who might be implicated in the very dubious Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, we recognise activity that necessitates the inspection. we are proposing a different model for policing This parcelling of costs on to the petitioner for an accountability from the previous model. I feel with a inspection feels wrong to me on a very instinctive, but number of the arguments which the noble Baronesses, also on a very practical, level. Surely the Home Office Lady Henig and Lady Harris, have made that they feel should be seeing fit that the costs of HMIC’s absolutely the current system is superb and any different system essential work should be met by a Home Office grant. will be untested, untried, difficult and probably worse. 827 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 828

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] have any power. We keep talking about checks and Therefore, as the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of balances. The panels have some rather pathetic veto Richmond, said, we must insert safeguards; I think powers requiring a two-thirds majority vote, but their this would insert belt, braces and string as well. input is not that great. I do not have much confidence The intention behind Clause 85—and the role of that they will have any great impact on the way in HMIC—is that HMIC should be there to inspect the which a commissioner operates. professional forces. That is its job. That is what it does My standpoint, funnily enough, has nothing to do extremely well. In terms of funding, regular inspections with police authorities working well or not; my standpoint will be paid for, as now, by the Home Office. The is the public. The whole point of the system is to serve subsection which relates to police and crime panels the public. One of the strengths of policing in this being able to request additional inspections of part of country is local accountability to local people. It is the functions of those forces is precisely to give them local people that I am thinking of. They should have added flexibility to request such inspections when the reassurance on some sort of regular basis that needed. Therefore, it does not seem unreasonable to commissioners are operating effectively—I do not see say, as this clause says, that, that there is anything wrong with that. I find it difficult “such reasonable costs incurred or to be incurred in connection to accept the repeated suggestion that I am asking for with the inspection”, all sorts of radical and extreme things, when it seems should be reimbursed by the PCP. that very sensible and basic issues are being raised. All I am suggesting is that it would be sensible for In terms of who inspects the PCC, the whole commissioners to be inspected, because it would give relationship between the police and crime panel and the public reassurance. the police and crime commissioner is intended to be that the checks and balances are provided by the police I am sorry that the Minister finds that so difficult to and crime panel. The regular check on the police and understand, because it seems to me to be very crime commissioner is provided by the police and straightforward. However, in view of the lateness of crime panel. That is the process which we are trying to the hour and because I do not want to test the patience build into the new model. To muddy the role of HMIC of the House any further, I beg leave to withdraw the by inspecting police and crime commissioners and amendment. police and crime panels does not seem appropriate to Amendment 236 withdrawn. the model we propose. The model we are introducing through the Bill is that HMIC should continue to Amendments 237 and 238 not moved. focus on the professional police forces and to report to the public as well as the Secretary of State on that. Police and crime commissioners will be held to account, Clause 87 : Inspection programmes and frameworks under scrutiny, on a regular basis by police and crime panels. Police and crime panels are part of the structure Amendment 239 not moved. of local government and local authorities and, I am sure, will continue to be held to account by their fellow Schedule 11 : Crime and disorder strategies councillors, particularly if they vote through precepts which rise rapidly year by year. On that basis, I hope Amendment 239A not moved. that I have provided some reassurance to the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, although I am sure that she is Amendments 240 and 241 completely unpersuaded that any new system can possibly be as good as that which we currently have. Nevertheless, Moved by Baroness Browning I hope that I have persuaded her to withdraw her 240: Schedule 11, page 145, line 42, at end insert— amendment. “( ) In subsection (1), after “section 5” insert “, with subsection (1A),”. ( ) After subsection (1) insert— 10.45 pm “(1A) In exercising functions under subsection (1), apart from Baroness Henig: I thank the Minister for that response. devolved Welsh functions (as defined by section 5(8)), each of the However, I do not think that he fully understood what responsible authorities for a local government area must have regard to the police and crime objectives set out in the police and I was arguing. I was not arguing that everything is crime plan for the police area which comprises or includes that wonderful in the present system; in fact, until recently, local government area.”.” police authorities were not inspected. It is only quite 241: Schedule 11, page 146, line 22, leave out “5(7)” and recently that they became inspected, which had a insert “5(8)” tremendously focusing impact. Police authorities operated much more effectively once they were inspected, which Amendments 240 and 241 agreed. has taken place only in the past two or three years if my memory serves me correctly. If elected councillors Amendment 242 sitting on a police authority can be inspected, I do not understand why commissioners who have been directly Moved by Lord Ramsbotham elected cannot be. I do not understand the difference: 242: Before Clause 91, insert the following new Clause— they are both elected, albeit perhaps in different ways. “Status of British Transport Police Force One reason why I have perhaps less confidence in (1) After section 1(2)(c) of the Police Act 1996 insert— the panels than the Minister is that I have yet to “(d) the area over which the British Transport Police Force believe—and we are now on Report—that they will has jurisdiction.” 829 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 830

(2) In section 30 of that Act insert— request for a number of legislative changes that addressed “(2A) A member of the British Transport Police Force shall the issues of police powers and jurisdiction to which, have all the powers and privileges of a constable throughout reprehensibly, they received no formal feedback from England and Wales and Scotland and the adjacent United Kingdom the Home Office. Instead, there was no consultation waters.” and they were surprised to find that Schedule 7 of the (3) In section 101 of that Act, in the definition of “chief Act stated that: officer of police” insert— “Where a member of the British Transport Police Force is for “(d) in relation to the British Transport Police Force, the the time being under the direction and control of the chief officer Chief Constable of that Force;”. of another police force by virtue of a police force collaboration (4) In section 1(2) of the Police (Property) Act 1997, in agreement … the member shall have all the powers and privileges inserted section (2B) insert— of a member of that other force”. “(d) the British Transport Police Authority.” Furthermore, no attempt was made to address an (5) Omit section 100 of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security added complication to co-operation that they had Act 2001.” raised, namely that the powers of jurisdiction of police officers from Home Office forces were not extended to Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I shall speak also to match those of a British Transport Police officer, Amendments 243, 271, 272, 304, 305 and 306. Since which include the ability to police in England, Wales all the amendments are to do with the British Transport and across the border in Scotland. Police and the British Transport Police Authority, they have been deliberately grouped together rather than Charitably, the British Transport Police assumed with specific clauses. They aim, as I said at Second that these continued inequities were not intended, but Reading, to, resulted from a lack of knowledge about the anomalies that resulted from gaps in existing legislation. Therefore, “strengthen the Bill by increasing co-operation between the authority and other police forces, particularly in counterterrorism and in they continued to look for opportunities to obtain the run-up to the Olympics”.—[Official Report, 27/4/11; col. 173.] parity of police-officer powers regardless of employing I shall first outline the context in which the amendments force, the next opportunity coming in September 2010 have been tabled and apologise to the House for being with the coalition Government’s consultation before unable to be here when they were debated in Committee. the Bill, entitled Policing in the 21st Century; Reconnecting Again, as I said at Second Reading, I am an unashamed Police and the People. proponent of two-tier policing in this country, with a The Bill envisages annual police plans, covering national police service complemented by a number of areas of the country yet to be determined, drawn up local and specialist forces. Bearing in mind that the by elected police and crime commissioners. Assuming last royal commission on policing was in 1962 and that, in logic, this must include all police forces, the much has happened since then which suggests the Transport Police, in its response to the consultation, need for reform of the policing as extant at that time, I pointed out that, as the specialist national force for the was very disappointed to find that although called the railways, cross-border working was part of its day-to-day police reform Bill, there is very little in it about reform, business. It welcomed the fact that, in drawing up their except about the governance of policing, which is not plans, PCCs would have to look beyond their own the same thing. force borders, However, these amendments are about long-needed “under a strong duty to collaborate, in the interests of value for reform; they are an attempt to complete business that money and to tackle cross border, national and international was begun as long ago as October 2001, when the then crimes”. Government issued a consultation document entitled The British Transport Police also said that it was Modernising the British Transport Police, which included keen to ensure that the different governance structures detailed proposals to bring it in line with Home Office between it and its authority and their Home Office police forces in terms of accountability, status and colleagues and their authorities did not create difficulties powers. It proposed, first, placing the jurisdiction of in the excellent communications and partnership working British Transport Police constables over the railways that currently existed between them. There must be, on a statutory basis; that was partly addressed in the for example, adequate provision for communications Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003, which gave between the authorities and committees of the Transport them the powers and privileges of a Home Office Police, the Civil and Nuclear Constabulary, the MoD constable, not only over all railway property, but Police and police and crime commissioners, if they throughout Great Britain in relation to railway matters. subsume the role currently filled by the Association of It secondly proposed giving British Transport Police Police Authorities. constables jurisdiction outside the railways in certain I mention this not to criticise the Bill so much as to circumstances. This, again, was partly addressed in suggest that these amendments to do with the British the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001, Transport Police ought to be government amendments. emergency legislation that followed 9/11 and other Identified anomalies that inhibit national and local terrorist attacks. policing have existed for far too long and have been However, although welcoming these changes, the drawn to the attention of both the Home Office and Transport Police and its authority regarded them as the Department for Transport over a number of years. only partial introduction of what had been proposed. Amendments 242, 271 and 272 are designed to rectify Therefore, they tried to use the opportunity presented the status anomaly; Amendment 243 is designed to by the August 2008 consultation that preceded the provide the opportunity for the Transport Police to Policing and Crime Act 2009 to address the identified protect the travelling public by taking preventive action anomalies once and for all. They submitted a formal against possible sex offenders. 831 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 832

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] have to apply individually for firearms certificates. The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, will speak to This seems ludicrous and flies in the face of the Home Amendments 271, 272 and 304 to 306, covering licensing Secretary’s determination to reduce bureaucracy in and firearms. All are designed to save money and the police service—a point made by the chief constable better protect the public. in his letter to Theresa Villiers. The cost in direct I appeal to the Minister to accept the opportunity financial terms and in opportunity costs to the BTP and created by the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Home Office forces to process more than 100 applications Bill to complete this unfinished business. I know that is completely avoidable simply by giving the BTP the both she and the Transport Police and its authority same powers as those expressly quoted in the Act for have been in contact with the Department for Transport the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the Serious Organised and I look forward to hearing what may have been Crime Agency. It also creates a delay in trained officers agreed between them. I accept that she will be unable being fully operational. Our amendments avoid that to promise more than that the issues I have raised will and I hope the Minister will feel able to accept them now be tackled positively and not allowed to drag on too. as they have over the past 10 years. In that anticipation, I beg to move. 11 pm I turn finally to Amendments 304, 305 and 306. Amendments 304 and 305 seek to name the BTP as a Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, I speak in responsible authority under the Licensing Act so it favour of the seven amendments. I start by expressing can object to a licence application, revoke a licence for my appreciation to the Minister for the constructive premises located within the jurisdiction of the railway approach she has adopted in conversations with both or object to a temporary licence. Amendment 306 the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and me about the explicitly provides for the BTP to receive the late-night role, powers and jurisdictions of the BTP. I know that levy from the licensing authority. Bearing in mind that she has written to the Transport Minister about these so much BTP officer time is spent policing alcohol-related amendments and I hope that when she answers the crime, disorder and anti-social behaviour, it seems debate she will be able to say that the Government at most unfair that the BTP is not able to get some least accept the spirit of them, if not accept them tonight. payment from the levy. I know from what the Minister said in Committee that she is particularly concerned about licensing issues I have a number of statistics relating to offences on and the difficulties that the BTP and the travelling railway stations. The one that apparently has the greatest public face with anti-social behaviour on the railway difficulty is Leeds station which has 18 venues, including fuelled by excessive drinking. I shall come to the a nightclub and a hotel. Alcohol-related offences at amendments which deal with that issue in a moment. Leeds have increased by 122 per cent in the past five years. I will not go into any more detail at this late I would like to add a word to what the noble Lord, hour, but I am sure the Minister will agree with me Lord Ramsbotham, said about jurisdiction. This is that this is an unacceptable situation. There are few covered in Amendment 242. The British Transport things more unpleasant or potentially terrifying for Police Authority has sent me a copy of a letter which rail passengers to face, particularly women travelling was sent on 7 July from the chief constable of the on their own late at night, than a bunch of drunken force, Andrew Trotter, to the Minister of State for yobbos terrorising a train or a station platform. We Transport, Theresa Villiers. In a paragraph headed cannot claim that our amendments will solve this “Jurisdiction”, he says: problem but the BTP and we certainly believe it will “The current legislative anomalies mean that there are a help them tackle it. number of caveats applied to the powers of BTP officers, these are provided not through our own Railways and Transport Safety I hope very much that the Minister can accept the Act 2003, but the Anti-terrorism Crime and Security Act 2001 spirit of these amendments. The previous Government (section 100(2) and (3)) which pre-dated it. The amendment laid attempted to do that and were not able to produce before the House of Lords seeks to remove the ambiguity the exactly the right solution. She has the opportunity to current legislation creates through these caveats. If the amendment produce a lasting solution for the future of the BTP’s is approved, in the eyes of the public and the rail industry, it will have no obvious impact on day-to-day policing of the railways powers and jurisdictions. If she does that, the travelling and I can assure you it will have no impact on costs or other public, railway staff and the officers of the British resource implications. It will however put BTP officers on the Transport Police will be greatly in her debt. same footing as their Home Office colleagues when not physically on rail property or carrying out duties related to the railways, i.e. they will be warranted officers not civilians”. Lord Berkeley: I support all these amendments, too. I will not repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, Amendments 271 and 272 deal with the Firearms and my noble friend Lord Faulkner have said because Act. I read in the latest issue of Railnews, which is the I fully support all their contributions, but it is worth monthly newspaper for rail industry staff, that the pointing out that the BTP is pretty unique as a very Government have approved the creation of an armed specialist police force. I think the statistics are that half response unit for the BTP. That paper states: of its officers tend to operate in London, both on the “Transport secretary Philip Hammond said the Home Office go-ahead was not in response to any specific threat but would Underground and on the main line, and the rest are reduce the burden on other police forces which provide armed split between the main line elsewhere in the country support to the BTP”. and Network Rail. That is all well and good and it is what the BTP chief When it comes to dealing with incidents—whether constable asked for, but it appears that BTP officers, it is some of the bad behaviour that my noble friend once selected and through the selection process, will Lord Faulkner was mentioning or cable theft on the 833 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 834 railway, which is a very serious issue and delays many agree that these changes merit closer examination. I trains—the BTP’s specialist knowledge in working can assure noble Lords that, in taking this matter safely on the lines, where there are sometimes high-speed forward between us, there is certainly no tension between trains and which sometimes can be electrified, is probably the two Ministers involved. I hope we shall meet fairly unique. When one has been delayed on the railways soon to set out and discuss what is behind these and has seen the difference in response professionalism amendments and how we might take that forward in a between the local force that probably has not had practical way. I pledge to take a personal interest in much experience of this and the BTP, it brings into the progress of this. focus how important it is that the BTP’s expertise is The proposed amendments cover a range of detailed maintained and enhanced. and technical changes. These would significantly affect It is absolutely essential that the ideas behind these the status, jurisdiction and powers of the British Transport amendments—that the BTP is put on the same footing Police. It is therefore essential that the intentions of as Home Office forces—are accepted. I hope the noble the amendments proposed are fully understood and Baroness will accept the principle, but I wonder whether that the consequences of the changes, for both the there is a problem because the BTP is the responsibility British Transport Police and wider policing, are closely of the Department of Transport and other forces are examined. In particular, we need to ensure that the the responsibility of the Home Office. I sometimes seemingly simple and straightforward legislative changes detect a kind of tension between the two, which the sought do not bring with them any unintended two previous noble Lords have also alluded to. I hope consequences. For example, Amendment 242 would that these amendments will help to improve relationships change Section 1 of the Police Act 1996 to make, and—something I see as being thoroughly important— “the area over which the British Transport Police Force has enable BTP officers to move around, not just on the jurisdiction”, railways but in adjacent areas where they need to do their work without the constraint of having to apply into a police area for the purposes of the Act. The to go into another force’s territory. effect of this would be that references to police areas in any other legislation would apply to the police area I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness of the British Transport Police, as defined in the will say in response and I thoroughly support these amendment. A quick search has shown that there are amendments. 370 occurrences of the phrase “police area” in primary legislation. The impact of extending them all to the Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I shall British Transport Police would be wide-ranging. make only three brief points. Like the others who have I have some detailed illustrations of what that spoken, I should like to hear what the Minister will say would mean, including matters to do with the Children in response to the case that has been put forward. Act 2004, local safeguarding children boards and the When I spoke to these amendments in Committee, I Police (Property) Act. However, given the lateness of am afraid I got into the history of the BTP but I will the hour, I hope noble Lords will understand that very not repeat that. Noble Lords will know that my concern careful and detailed consideration is needed before for and interest in the branch is real. putting this into primary legislation. However, I am in The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, gave us an touch with colleagues in the Department for Transport, interesting history and pointed out some of the difficulties with a view to exploring solutions to this to provide that the BTP has faced in trying to make its case to the the necessary powers and jurisdiction that the British Government. Those are very powerful and persuasive Transport Police seeks and which will enable it to points. The additional comments from my noble friends deliver policing of the railways as efficiently and effectively Lord Faulkner and Lord Berkeley have made a pretty as possible and without unintended consequences. I irresistible case. It is time to look at how the geographic have discussed this with colleagues in the Department forces interrelate with the BTP and vice versa. The for Transport, and this examination and seeking to safety of the travelling public and the interests of all find the right way in which to put this into primary concerned would benefit from that. I am concerned legislation will be an ongoing exercise for us. I assure that it is perhaps more complex than has been said in noble Lords that, when appropriate changes are identified, the past few minutes. Therefore, we shall need to look my department will be prepared to consider making at that sometime. However, I hope the Minister will the necessary changes within suitable primary legislation. reassure us that she will not leave it to ordinary Although I cannot commit to putting the provision at processes and that, on this occasion, she will tackle this very late stage into the tail-end of this legislation, what is required positively to give us some hope that we will, as these proposals come forward and are the situation will not be allowed to drag on, and so validated, look to put them into primary legislation in that we get some resolution to these points. future Bills. I understand that there is quite a bit of Home Office legislation coming up the track, if noble Lords will forgive the pun, and I would hope that Baroness Browning: My Lords, I am very grateful to there would be opportunities. all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. I shall start by speaking to Amendments 242, 243, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and 271 and 272. In Committee I was grateful for noble Lord Faulkner of Worcester, for their amendments Lords’ comments about the importance of integrated and I thank noble Lords for the support that has been policing between the British Transport Police and the given to them around the House. However, on the geographic police forces. This is why my honourable basis of what I have said, I ask them not to press their friend the Minister of State for Transport and I fully amendments. 835 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[LORDS] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 836

[BARONESS BROWNING] while again minimising unnecessary bureaucracy. I am I turn to Amendments 304 to 306, which address confident that if the British Transport Police has licensing. These amendments seek to put the British concerns about temporary events, it can raise these in Transport Police on a par with the 43 territorial police the course of their liaison with their local constabularies. forces in England and Wales for the purposes of alcohol licensing. I can see why that might seem a 11.15 pm reasonable proposition at first glance. However, I am Finally, Amendment 306 would make the British not able to accept the amendments, as I explained in Transport Police a recipient of the late-night levy some detail in Committee last month. However, I shall funds alongside the geographic police forces. The levy briefly reiterate the reasons. is a means of raising revenue from licensed premises Amendment 304 would make the British Transport that sell alcohol late at night so as to ensure that such Police a responsible authority under the Licensing premises contribute to the costs of policing the late-night Act 2003, which requires licensing authorities economy. I mentioned in Committee that, while I automatically to notify responsible authorities about recognised that the British Transport Police must deal licence reviews. Licence applicants, who will be local with late-night crime and disorder, its role is more businesses or individuals, must also send copies to limited. Its night-time role is restricted to areas where their local responsible authorities. In this Bill, we are there is little or no public use of late-night railway increasing the list of responsible authorities to include transport. This applies to many licensing authority health bodies and licensing authorities in their own areas. right. We do not think it would be helpful to extend In any event, the geographic constabularies bear the list further to include the British Transport Police. the overwhelming burden of late-night policing costs. Licensing is administered by local authorities, which The levy clauses will allow licensing authorities to make licensing decisions that reflect the needs of the retain up to 30 per cent of the net revenue to fund local area. For this reason, the chief officer of police services in the late night, such as taxi marshals. Licensing for the geographic area is a responsible authority authorities could decide, at their discretion, to give under the Act. Likewise, other responsible authorities some of their retained funds to the British Transport have as their focus the geographic area in which the Police in those areas where the BTP may incur specific premises are situated. costs of policing alcohol-related crime and disorder in The British Transport Police is a broadly non- the night-time economy. In addition, the Government geographic force, with a specific, non-regional jurisdiction. have retained the power to amend the beneficiaries of It covers the transport network as a whole and so will the levy in regulations, should it transpire that it is not be relevant to some licensing authority areas. We desirable specifically to pass some of the levy funds to do not think it would always be obvious in a given bodies such as the British Transport Police. local area to which part of the British Transport We have the greatest respect for the BTP, which Police licensing applicants should send their licensing carries out the difficult task of tackling crime on our forms. On top of that, the Government are unwilling transport network. However, for the reasons that I to add to the burden of on businesses by adding have given, I ask your Lordships to withdraw the responsible authorities unnecessarily. amendments. Of course, the British Transport Police has expert knowledge on alcohol-related late-night crime and Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I thank the Minister disorder around transport hubs and on the transport for that very encouraging and positive response. I also network. We expect the British Transport Police to thank her personally for the care that she has taken to have effective lines of communication with the geographic meet with us and take on board the points that we constabularies and that it will continue to use them in have made and transfer them to the Department for future to raise any issues it has relating to alcohol Transport as well. licensing. In addition, I point out that because under I think we are all encouraged, but I hope that the this Bill we are removing the test of vicinity from the Minister will forgive me if I sound a note of caution, Licensing Act 2003, it will in future be open for because promises have been made to the British Transport anyone, including members of the British Transport Police since 2001. I ask the Minister if we could now Police, to make representations to the licensing authority have from the Department for Transport and indeed in their own right. Applications for new licences do get the Home Office an action plan showing who is to do advertised, and we taking steps to require licensing what and by when, which will be reported back to this authorities to publicise these online. I hope that would House so that we can keep in touch with what is be of help to the British Transport Police. Making the actually happening. We have been here before over the British Transport Police a responsible authority would last 10 years and people have been frightened, I suspect, cause unnecessary bureaucracy for licensing applicants. by the figures that she might have quoted to us and put Amendment 305 seeks to make the British Transport the matter in the “too difficult” file. It is not a “too Police a relevant person for the purposes of allowing it difficult” file; it is a file that must be actioned. Therefore, to object to temporary events notices. Residents’ if I say that I am prepared to withdraw the amendments organisations told us that, after crime, noise was their tonight but perhaps return to the subject on Third greatest concern in relation to temporary events. We Reading briefly, I hope that at that stage the Minister are extending the right to object to the environmental might be able to assure this House that the action plan health authority and allowing them and the police to that I am calling for will be implemented so that these object on the grounds of all four licensing objectives. things really will happen rather than be allowed to We think that provides adequate protection for residents wither on the vine. 837 Police Reform and Social Responsibility[13 JULY 2011] Police Reform and Social Responsibility 838

Baroness Browning: I am very grateful to the noble that but we of course have the opportunity, when the Lord. I am sure that he is aware that Third Reading is Bill goes back to the other place and comes back here, next week—Tuesday or Wednesday, I believe. It was for progress to be made. It is terribly important, as the not my intention to have met with the Minister of Minister has clearly realised, that we maintain the State in the Department for Transport by then. However, momentum rather than let this matter die. I beg leave I can assure him that I am planning to meet with her to withdraw the amendment. before the House returns in September. I think that she and I need to have an across-the-table discussion Amendment 242 withdrawn. about the sort of thing that the noble Lord has mentioned. I am in favour of action plans and timelines. I quite like the concept of project management in this area. Amendment 243 not moved. However, I do not want to talk it up too much, given that the noble Lord has told us that this has been on Clause 91 : Collaboration agreements the table since 2001. All I can say is that both my right honourable friend in the Department for Transport and I are Amendment 244 minded to move this along as fast as we can. We will of Moved by Baroness Browning course engage the British Transport Police itself in this negotiation. I am quite sure that it will relay to the 244: Clause 91, page 59, line 23, at end insert— noble Lord whether it feels we are making progress or “( ) A statutory instrument containing an order under this not. However, as we make progress I will endeavour, section may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been on a very informal basis, to ensure that noble Lords laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.” who have expressed an interest in this are kept informed of the progress being made. I am quite sure that if we do not make that progress, the noble Lord will call me Amendment 244 agreed. back to this Dispatch Box pretty rapidly. Consideration on Report adjourned. Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I am very grateful for that. I do not know whether I have the right to say House adjourned at 11.21 pm.

GC 303 Arrangement of Business[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 304

Wales. Bev Evans puts lesson plans up on the web Grand Committee using the TES Resources website. Over the past few years she has shared 276 teaching resources on the Wednesday, 13 July 2011. web with other teachers. As of last month, her work has been downloaded 1,345,330 times by 237,364 Arrangement of Business educators in 169 countries. Teachers save an average of 30 minutes per resource, the equivalent of 672,665 Announcement hours of teaching time, which is worth 431 teaching years. I cite that because it is a fantastic illustration of 3.45 pm the way that technology has the ability to transform The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): teaching and learning. These figures and indeed the My Lords, as is usual on these occasions, if there is a whole concept would have been unimaginable a decade Division in the Chamber, the Committee will adjourn ago, so the role that technology now plays in education as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after is fundamental. approximately 10 minutes. To put it kindly, I am afraid that, at present, the We resume on Amendment 83ZA. I understand White Paper is technology-light. I am concerned about that on the last occasion, Amendment 83ZA had that because the whole purpose is to start a serious already been put and that a lot of the debate has conversation both at the department and with the already taken place. If any noble Lord wishes to take Minister. We need the reassurance of knowing that up the cudgels on this amendment before the Minister this subject will not be like discussing the adaptation responds, he or she should do so now. to or mitigation of climate change with someone who does not really accept that climate change is an important Education Bill reality. This is a reality. The noble Lord, Lord Willis, sensibly cited the example of electricity. It is absolutely Committee (6th Day) true to say that in the early part of the last century, the 3.46 pm difference between the attainments of some children Relevant document: 15th Report form the Delegated over others depended on whether there was electricity Powers Committee, 13th Report from the Joint Committee in their homes. That would allow them to do homework on Human Rights. in the evenings, whereas those without electricity could not. Technology is as fundamental as that. That Debate on Amendment 83ZA resumed. may sound like a large claim, but it is not an irrelevant Lord Puttnam: My Lords, this amendment is grouped one. with Amendment 107C tabled in my name and that of I am also puzzled because two weeks ago the Secretary the noble Lord, Lord Willis. I want to add to what was of State, Mr Gove, made a really remarkable speech at said towards the end of the debate on Monday. I the Royal Society. The second half of that absolutely should say that I agree with every word that the noble nailed and eulogised the use of technology. He was Lord, Lord Willis, said. He is correct that technology completely clear as to how important the adequate but is not an add-on, something it would be nice to have or intelligent use of technology was to our competitiveness. that we ought to be looking at. Technology in education He was very clear about the way technology is being today is absolutely fundamental. Here I must declare a used in other countries successfully and that we had to series of important interests. When I worked for the get our act together and make a success of it. He could department for six years between 1997 and 2003, I not have been more crystal clear on that. Yet none of became fascinated by the impact of new technology in that speech is contained at the moment anywhere in education. On leaving the department, I became engaged the White Paper as I read it. It would be good for the with and subsequently joined the board of Promethean, Government, the country and, I suggest, the Minister a company producing interactive whiteboards. I still if it were. The purpose of these two amendments is to sit on that board. I am also chairman of Futurelab, try and ensure that that finds its way into the Bill and which is an educational research charity. It is important the Government prove for good and all that they are to say that the reason I joined the board of Futurelab absolutely committed to technology within teaching was to try and ensure that— and learning. The Deputy Chairman of Committees: Perhaps I may intervene on the noble Lord for a second. Could I Lord Peston: Before the Minister speaks, I unfortunately ask our expert in the corner whether the microphones missed the last meeting of your Lordships’ Committee. are switched on because we cannot hear the noble I broadly support what is said here but would like, as Lord, Lord Puttnam, awfully well? Perhaps I may also someone who spends a lot of time using this sort of suggest that noble Lords make sure that their mobile technology, to offer one or two caveats. First, I know phones are turned off because it is their phones which of no other way of wasting more time than in getting are causing that curious buzzing noise. on to the net. It is not merely ordinary time-wasting because it is addictive. I am keen for our young people Lord Puttnam: Thank you, Lord Chairman. I could to get involved in all this but we should not be naïve go into detail about why I think this is so important, about it. When I come into your Lordships’ House, I but perhaps I should go straight to something I read am one of the early arrivals at 8.30. By 9.30 I am fed the other day which is absolutely factual. It concerns a up to the teeth and immediately log-on. I start typing teaching assistant and special needs teacher called into my machine. Some two hours go by and I have Bev Evans at Pembroke Dock Community School in looked at The Wasteland by TS Eliot—you can download GC 305 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 306

[LORD PESTON] leader, so there are strong commercial reasons why we it for free, which surprises me. I then begin to wonder should support it. We want to encourage sharing of if that is a better poem than The Love Song of J Alfred evidence of effective practice in the use of technology Prufrock. That is all good for young people except for and improved teacher skills in using it. My noble the amount of time that it takes. Equally, one should friend and the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, have given not be naïve in assuming that they will do as I do and me a useful nudge—I think that that is the word—or look for intellectual, aesthetic and scientific things. prod about the importance of that. They will spend a lot of time mucking around. I am We are talking to a number of interested parties— not saying a word against any of this being the right school leaders, professional bodies, educational charities, path to go down—quite the contrary. We really must industry, academics and other experts—about how the go down this path but I wanted to add those words of department should take forward its thinking about caution. technology. Given the pace of change, we think it The other words of caution already emerged in your important to allow schools and teachers themselves, Lordships’ earlier deliberations. For a lot of young working with industry, to respond to the changes. We people, we are talking about a great deal of money. As want to give teachers the freedom to choose how to much as I support my noble friend’s Amendment 107C, use it to create lessons that engage their pupils and it would cost quite a lot of money. Also, one should enable them to achieve their full potential. The noble not forget how many homes still do not have computers. Lord, Lord Puttnam, gave a powerful example of how That was perfectly clear from the earlier discussion. It that is happening. The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, again troubled me a little that—I have forgotten where and my noble friend talked on Monday about having a I read it now, but it was apropos of what is developing conversation with the department. I would certainly in California—increasingly if you do not submit your welcome such a conversation and invite both of them work via computer it ceases to be acceptable. Are we and any other noble Lords with an interest to help us absolutely certain that we want to be completely committed develop our thinking. to that path? I am quite certain that, were our successors Access to computers and the internet is an important to read my speech a generation from now, they would point. Clearly, that can have benefits for the whole say, “Well, they really had some old fogies in those family. We know that many schools offer access to days, didn’t they?”. By then, it will just be the norm but ICT before and after normal school hours to help we should just be a little cautious about the path to pupils without access at home. Other schools are that norm. Nothing of what I have said should be working with charities such as the e-Learning Foundation interpreted as meaning anything other than support and the commercial sector to provide access. We want for technology in schools. As I say, the world wide web more of that. is a fantastic treasure trove of valuable things. We On resources, the financial situation is obviously certainly want our young people to use it. I simply add difficult. We seek to support disadvantaged pupils the caveat that there is a little more to this than just directly through the pupil premium. The premium saying what a wonderful thing that is. enables schools to decide for themselves how best to spend additional resources to support disadvantaged The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for pupils. On Monday, my noble friend gave the figures Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): First, I agree very for the extent to which there is a disparity between rich much with the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord and poor—unsurprisingly—of access to computers. Puttnam, and with the powerful speech made by my The premium may well include providing computers noble friend Lord Willis on Monday, when we last and broadband connectivity if the schools think that discussed this before being rudely interrupted. My that is the most effective approach for particular children noble friend was absolutely right that the effective use in the circumstances that they face. of technology clearly supports good teaching and The Government certainly recognise the important helps raise standards. role that technology can play in supporting education. As he argues clearly, it is not an either/or between, We are considering that within government. I ask for example, Shakespeare and technology. I have had my noble friend Lord Willis—and, as I said, any that conversation with the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, other noble Lords who would be interested in such before. He made the case powerfully to me that technology conversation—to help us with our thinking. I certainly can bring Shakespeare within reach of people for accept the fundamental importance of the subject, as whom the traditional way of books would be much my right honourable friend the Secretary of State set harder; it can bring it to life in a way that the Arden set out in the recent speech to which the noble Lord, Lord might not. Puttnam, referred. On that basis, I ask my noble friend My noble friend was right to suggest on Monday to withdraw the amendment. that there has been too much emphasis on the technology itself, the kit, and the idea that we could transform Lord Willis of Knaresborough: I warmly thank the teaching simply by spending money on computers or Minister for his thoughtful comments and for the way whiteboards. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, in which he wishes to tackle this issue and take it agrees with that. By the same token, I accept that there forward. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Peston and are far more exciting ways of learning than just by Lord Puttnam, for their support. I confess that the Latin primer. comments of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, reminded One point that was not raised about technology is me of St Bede, who wanted a book out of the Vatican the fact that we have an extraordinarily successful library and set off walking from St Albans all the way market in educational technology in the UK. We are a to get it. You can imagine that when Caxton brought GC 307 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 308 the printing press to Britain, people said, “It’s not the (2) The point scores so assigned shall bear an appropriate same as having to walk to Rome for it”. We have to be relationship to the scores assigned to GCSE qualifications. careful, and I take the comments that he made. (3) Ofqual may make an appropriate charge for this service. What excites me about the investigation—having (4) All qualifications to which such point scores have been been watching my wife recently, who has just found assigned shall be recorded, in an appropriate fashion, in school performance tables.” Google as well as most shopping sites—is the excitement of seeing children find new information and new ideas. That is what learning is about; it is not simply Baroness Perry of Southwark: I move this amendment dealing with what you are taught but finding out on behalf of my noble friend Lord Lucas, who I think information yourself. Experiments have been done in is rowing for the Lords at the moment. As is quite Africa where solar-powered computers have just been clear from the wording, the amendment asks the left for young children to explore them, and they have Government to consider whether it is necessary for been able to access Google and information across the only qualifications that are accredited by Ofqual to be world without any further training. Youngsters today counted into the points score for individual schools. It are hardwired into this technology, and to be able to is now not only independent schools but many others use it is important. that offer the international baccalaureate, for example, I looked, as did the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, at and other professional and vocational qualifications the Secretary of State’s speech and was hugely encouraged may not be accredited by Ofqual but are accredited by by what he had to say. I mentioned in my earlier other perfectly respectable and widely acknowledged remarks that I do not believe that the Secretary of bodies. As I understand it, Ofqual has within its remit State is a Luddite. He sometimes hides his passion for only about 15 per cent of all qualifications; the other technology under a bushel or behind volumes of 85 per cent are variously accredited by other organisations, Shakespeare but it is important to take it out. He talks many of which, as I say, are themselves well accredited. about Du Sautoy, the Li Ka-Shing fellowship and The purpose of my noble friend’s amendment is to Professor Khan’s work; these are remarkable initiatives ask the Government to consider whether they should to bring learning to millions of youngsters around the collect data on all qualifications gained, assuming that world. We need to be part of that, but you can do so they have proper provenance and whether or not they only if you have good technology in school that is are within the empire of Ofqual. On his behalf, I beg being used wisely and effectively and you have access to move. to that at home as well. As the Government, local authorities and other statutory bodies move forward Lord Lingfield: My Lords, I rather support the with delivering more and more on the internet—rightly, amendment because, as my noble friend Lady Perry in my view—it is children who become the educators said, a large number of schools, not just in the state of the future. It is for that reason that I hope that this sector but in the independent sector, are considering will be taken forward. innovation as regards examinations. A number of very grand independent schools can consider these and not I thank the Minister for his comments. We will take worry about any point scoring that comes out in up his offer of a meeting with him and his officials. league tables throughout the country. However, many With those assurances, I beg leave to withdraw the other schools cannot afford to take these initiatives in amendment. a way that they might wish to. This is a good idea. I am not certain what the minutiae of it could be, but I Amendment 83ZA withdrawn. very much hope that the Minister will take away the point made by my noble friends Lord Lucas and Lady Clause 20 : Requirement for schools to participate in Perry and look at it carefully. international surveys While we are on the subject of Ofqual, noble Lords will remember that huge difficulties were mentioned in Amendment 83A not moved. the newspapers during the previous round of examinations which did not show some of the awarding bodies in a Clause 20 agreed. very good light. I understand that there were nine incidents overall. I am sure that the Minister will Amendment 84 withdrawn. correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Ofqual can impose two types of sanction on the Clause 21 agreed. awarding bodies—first, a rap over the knuckles, which may not be very effective; and, secondly, the nuclear Schedule 7 agreed. option of striking them off the list, which may not be in any way suitable and could cause great difficulties. Clause 22 agreed. Therefore, will the Minister and his colleagues consider a third option that could involve a series of fines for Amendment 85 various circumstances that would add seriously to the sanctions available to Ofqual? Perhaps some of the Moved by Baroness Perry of Southwark difficulties that arose last year and caused distress to 85: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— pupils and schools will not arise in the future? “Duty to assign point scores (1) Ofqual shall, on request, assign a point score to each grade Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, I support of a qualification that is taken at any independent school as part the remarks that have just been made. Ofqual is in its of their Key Stage 4 curriculum. early stages; it has set off on what is essentially a new GC 309 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 310

[LORD SUTHERLAND OF HOUNDWOOD] all the information the department holds on schools in path with new powers given on the Floor of this a single place in a way that is accessible to everyone. House, among other places. It is important that Ofqual We have made some steps already in opening up has the powers and flexibility to maintain a reputation information on qualifications and we intend to do that will be essential if standards are to be properly more. This puts parents in a stronger position to judge observed in this country. whether a school is meeting their child’s needs. However, qualifications reported in performance Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, very briefly, this tables should first be accredited by Ofqual in order to is my maiden contribution to this consideration in secure standards. Ofqual’s scrutiny provides a safeguard Committee of the Bill. I am a former Minister, and that qualifications are rigorous and challenging. It is perhaps I should formally declare that I am a fellow open to all the qualification-awarding organisations to of City and Guilds, although I have no operational present the qualifications that they offer for accreditation. responsibilities there. The majority of qualifications taken in the independent I also warm to this idea. There was a time—if noble sector and all qualifications taken in the state sector Lords wish to look it up; as I recall, it was Section 24 are accredited. of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992—when In recent years, school performance tables have it was in the hands of the Minister of the day, who shown schools’ performances based on a system of happened to be me, to exercise a kind of nuclear equivalencies, which have ascribed a points value to a option whereby everything that was not authorised wide range of qualifications, and presented information could be extinguished. That is an extreme version and about schools’ performance based on those points. one that every year we fought off enacting. I am very However, sometimes that approach serves to conceal glad that we did. The world is a much more protean more information than it reveals, and it treats very place now. I happen recently to have had correspondence different qualifications as if they are the same. Both with the Minister’s colleagues in the department about may be excellent, valuable qualifications in their own some very sensible input by the French inspector right but they are not necessarily the same. general of education, which I had not expected to be We want to try to give parents detailed and specific made in quite the tones that it was. It certainly was not information about qualifications and not lump it all insular. together. It is also the case that the current system of We should allow Ofqual, as a new institution, the equivalencies has created some perverse incentives for maximum slack to pursue its interests and duties. schools to offer courses that score highly in performance There are concerns about the quality of the examination tables but are not necessarily in the best interests of system, although I suspect—given the sheer industrial the children concerned. That is why we have accepted volume of what is processed through the system, including Professor Wolf’s recommendation that we should replace the number of entries and scripts—it is perhaps not the existing performance table measures based on surprising that mistakes are made from time to time. equivalence points and try to introduce more sophisticated However, at least let us not ask Ofqual to confine its criteria for deciding which qualifications should count activities to a narrow schedule in presenting the in performance tables in future. achievements of schools and the options that it can My noble friend Lord Lucas is extremely experienced take. My message to the Minister would be to keep as in slicing and dicing data and I would welcome the much flexibility as we reasonably can. chance for him to come in and talk to officials about whether there are ways that we can benefit from his Baroness Wall of New Barnet: My Lords, this is also experience and put it to the most effective use. my maiden intervention in this Bill. I support the final My noble friend Lord Lingfield raised the possibility comments that were made, for two reasons. First, I of Ofqual taking a more nuanced approach, with a declare an interest: I work with and support EAL, a range of sanctions rather than the current, as he bespoke awarding body. Its view is that the extremes described it, rap over the knuckle or the nuclear option, that are currently available are really quite worrying. and that perhaps it would be sensible to have something Secondly, and importantly for it, if we do not have more graduated, maybe with some kind of fine. It is those opportunities to bring to a halt and remedy the clear from the comments that have been made that the situation, it does no good for those awarding bodies Government ought to think about that and reflect on that try very hard to make sure that they work very it, to see whether it could be made to work in a well. For those reasons, I support those comments. sensible way, and to give Ofqual this kind of power as Perhaps the Minister will think about whether there is it develops. I am very happy to take those suggestions something in between, but certainly that something away and see whether that is something we can do and detrimental should happen if things are not working come back to at a later date. out well. With that and with the earlier points on the performance, I hope my noble friend feels able to Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, on the core point withdraw her amendment. of this amendment, we certainly want to create a system that encourages all schools to offer high quality qualifications and gives pupils and parents the clearest 4.15 pm possible information. To achieve this, first, we are committed to giving everyone access to the underlying Baroness Perry of Southwark: I am grateful to the data on all the qualifications taken in schools, in both Minister for that reply and the detail that he offered. the independent and state sectors. We plan to publish I am particularly pleased that he is prepared to consider GC 311 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 312 the possibility of Ofqual not being the only arbiter of and advice to the Secretary of State that ought in my whether a qualification is acceptable. Perhaps I should view to precede any changes to the curriculum. There have said in introducing my noble friend’s amendment has in fact been an unbroken history of statutory that there are many good examples, in both state and advisory bodies on such matters since the Board of independent schools who work closely with their local Education Act 1899. The first specific statutory NDPB industry, of vocational or professional qualifications to advise on the curriculum and assessment was established given by, for example, some of the large worldwide under the Education Reform Act 1988. Since then, computer companies and so on. I would suggest that this role has been continued by one such body or those have a rather greater standing internationally another—and for good reasons. than that of simply Ofqual. It is an inhibitor on those In 1988, in the debate on the establishment of that kinds of relationships between local industries and first statutory non-departmental body, one of the schools if the qualifications that could form part of most respected educationists of the 20th century, Lord the collaboration are not recognised in the school’s Alexander of Potterhill, drew an analogy with the role league tables. I am sure that my noble friend will wish of the national curriculum in Germany in 1935 in to take this further and I would be happy to join in establishing Nazism. This may be an overly dramatic those discussions. In the meanwhile, I will withdraw analogy for the House of Lords in 2011, but the the amendment. independence of advice on curriculum and assessment has always been an important point of principle for Amendment 85 withdrawn. this House in its debates. Current Ministers are prepared to change or influence the curriculum without the Clause 23 agreed. transparency of that independent advice or evidence. For example, noble Lords may be aware of the systematic Clause 24 : Abolition of the QCDA: consequential change that has occurred in the guidance to primary amendments schools, in which every reference in the text to “phonics”, introduced by the previous Government, has, without discussion, been changed to “synthetic phonics”. Also, Amendment 85A the Government’s unilateral introduction of the Moved by Baroness Hughes of Stretford prescriptive EBacc shows unusual levels of willingness to interfere. 85A: Clause 24, page 27, line 2, at beginning insert “Subject to subsection (4),” This clause opens the door to any future Secretary of State directly to change the national curriculum in Baroness Hughes of Stretford: Amendment 85A a way that is either politically motivated or, more and Amendment 86B, in my name and that of my likely, implements the pet theories or hobby horses of noble friend, relate to Clause 24. Among other things, Ministers. Again, there is concern that we are already the clause transfers some of the functions of the beginning to witness that, with views being expressed Qualifications and Curriculum Development Agency that, for example, history should be about the rote to the Secretary of State—principally, those functions learning of Kings and Queens and their dates, and in to do with the approval of attainment targets and the the view of the current Minister for Schools that development of the national curriculum and supporting education should principally be about core knowledge— materials. Having already debated the demise of a and core knowledge as he defines it. I am not saying number of non-departmental public bodies and outside that those are not valid views—they may indeed be agencies in the course of the Bill, noble Lords may valid—but they are contested by a wide range of views think that, among the many important issues concerning in the profession. That contest and debate about what us, it is not a priority to take up this issue with the is important ought to be transparent during any process Government. This is not simply about saving another of review. quango. It is important to understand what the process Amendments 85A and 85B would try to ensure that will be for changing the national curriculum if the the Secretary of State must demonstrate that the process QCDA or some other similar, independent body does of review of the national curriculum is independent of not exist—as will be the case if Clause 24 is approved government. That would provide assurance to parents unamended. and pupils about the content of the curriculum. The argument deployed in the other place in support Amendment 86 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady of the abolition of the QCDA was that, to quote Walmsley, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, who Nick Gibb, cannot be here today, would require an advisory board “responsibility for the curriculum has always rested with the to ensure some independence. In their amendment, Secretary of State, both under the previous Administration and they are trying to reach the same point. this, and nothing is changing as far as that is concerned. The QCDA simply acted on behalf of Government in advising and The department issued a statement which, I suspect, helping to design the curriculum and, as such, no functions are was meant to allay our fears, but it compounds them. transferring from the QCDA to the Department”.—[Official Although the Secretary of State of the day will make Report, Commons, Public Bill Committee, 24/3/11; col. 642.] the final decisions about the national curriculum, what This is a partial and one-sided claim. Most importantly, matters is the process of consultation and review—its it fails to acknowledge the very important element of comprehensiveness, impartiality, scope, transparency, independence and transparency, if not to the final the independence of the analysis of the responses, and decision which the Secretary of State of the day will the recommendations then made to the Secretary of take but to the process of review, and of recommendation State, who may or may not accept them. Unless the GC 313 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 314

[BARONESS HUGHES OF STRETFORD] fixated as we are on what exactly is taught. The high process of reviewing consultation is independently level of prescription in this country goes somewhat conducted so that people can be assured that it is counter to the claims that teachers are trusted as comprehensive and takes into account all the views, professionals. In other countries, the design of the and that someone independent of government is trying curriculum is very different from the one that seems to to make sense of it to formulate an analysis and be emerging in this country when we look at the remit recommendation, then following the demise of the for the expert panel which are to advise the Secretary QCA with no other body taking its place, all that I of State. have mentioned would be under the control of the In Singapore, for example, core values are emphasised. Secretary of State and civil servants. They would These are self-awareness, self-management, social decide who to consult, which evidence was reported awareness, relationship management, and responsible publicly and the conclusions to be drawn—and all decision-taking. One cannot imagine all of this being potentially supporting the decisions that the Secretary delivered without the compulsory teaching of life of State originally wanted to make. skills, and indeed if we look in detail, this is exactly I contend that that cannot be right. Whether it is what we find: at the core are things like health education, the QCDA or another body, surely an independent PSHE, citizenship, global awareness and physical body must be in charge of the process of consultation. education. Surrounding these are knowledge skills—which The results will then rightly be handed to the Secretary include languages—maths and science, and, lastly, of State of the day, who will make the decision and be humanities and the arts. accountable for them. It is important that everyone—all of us and the parents and public— can see the basis on In New Zealand, the key competencies are critical which those important decisions are made. thinking and problem solving, using languages, symbols and texts, managing self and relating to others. In I will draw another analogy. It occurred to me Australia, there are three core interrelated strands whether we would ever think about doing this as which include heath and physical education, personal regards health. I wonder whether, if there were a and interpersonal development and citizenship interwoven review of the best and most effective treatments for with subject knowledge and cross-curricular skills. cancer, we would contemplate giving the whole process Indeed, thinking processes are included in nearly all to the Secretary of State and to officials in the department, these curriculums, and these are three very successful rather than to a representative body of professionals education systems which I think we can learn from. and others to form an independent evaluation of the efficacy of treatments and make recommendations to However, none of these issues seems to emerge in the Secretary of State. We so easily seem to slip into the remit for the expert review panel; it mainly talks the assumption that with education we can do things about knowledge and facts. We would like to know that we would not dream of doing with other professional how the panel’s remit has been arrived at. The note bodies. This point has been raised before. I ask the from the Bill team says that the remit is always very Minister to comment in his summing up on the points important, and we can well believe that. But looking I have made, but also to explain how the Government at it, we rather doubt whether what comes out will be can justify this degree of control over this process by anything like the curriculum of those very successful an elected politician. I beg to move Amendment 85A. countries. This is one reason why this particular amendment has been put forward. Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I have been asked by my noble friend Lady Walmsley to speak in support of 4.30 pm Amendment 86, which is in her name and that of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. By laying this amendment, Lord Peston: My Lords, I rise to support my noble we wish to reiterate the importance of the Secretary of friend Lady Hughes and to echo the words of my old State having the benefit of independent advice on friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. I suppose I changes in the national curriculum. This picks up the reveal every time I speak in your Lordships’ Committee points which have just been made by the noble Baroness, what a dinosaur I am, but deep down, I do not believe Lady Hughes. there should be a national curriculum. Equally, I do not believe in banging my head against a wall, when I My noble friend Lady Walmsley is very grateful will be on the losing side. I believe in education, and I indeed to the Bill team who have briefed her about the have great difficulty in seeing any connection between processes taking place, and above all about the education and a national curriculum. transparency that currently exists between the Secretary of State and the QCDA, and the fact that these will I was prompted to think about that when my noble remain under the new proposals. However, the note friend Lady Hughes mentioned that the Secretary of that the team provided says: State is keen for all children to learn the dates of the “Following the passage of the Education Bill, the Secretary of monarchs of our country.We just debated an amendment State will remain responsible for making proposals to change the on technology and all that. To prove that my Alzheimer’s national curriculum and will still be able to ask another body to is not as bad as it is, I start with Her Majesty the advise him if he wishes to do so”. Queen and work back to as many Kings and Queens It is the phrase “if he wishes to do so” that bothers as I can think of, but for the life of me, these days, I us from the Liberal Democrat stance. We would like to cannot remember the dates at all. I cannot think of ensure that the Secretary of State always takes advice any reason why that is a problem for me, because I go from experts on these matters. As we heard last Monday, to Google, I type in William IV and Mary, and up the curriculum is vital, and other countries are not as come their dates. GC 315 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 316

Lord Hill of Oareford: William III. Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I am also one of those who think it pretty important that the curriculum Lord Peston: My Alzheimer’s is worse than I thought is seen to be independent of Government. I am thinking it was. The Secretary of State must be aware of that about the future of what is planned. It is said that the technology. Other things are in the national curriculum QCDA may well not have been the most successful of that, when I was at school, I found inimical to education. bodies, but it did a pretty adequate job nevertheless. Geography was the most extreme example. We were We do not have any clear idea where it is going, but made to do geography. I was not persuaded then and I one is told and one hopes that some of the bodies will am not persuaded now that geography should be part be transferred to other organisations. If the advisory of anybody’s education. If I want to know where body that will be giving advice to the Government as somewhere is, again, I go to my computer. These days, and when required—this is important—it should be I have to type in the name of countries that did not much more available on an independent basis to the exist in my day, but I can find out where they are. emerging range of academies. There will be a need for I believe that education is about finding things out good independent advice. I am inclined to support all and appreciating them—all that my noble friend and these amendments, but will bear in mind what the the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said. If we all reflect Minister says in his reply about plans that will be seen on what was the best part of our education and to be more satisfactory to the Committee. schooling, it was things that were not merely part of the curriculum but, in my case, not something I was Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, I am ever examined on. I was in the economic sixth at happy to reassure my noble friend Lord Peston that Hackney Downs School and the headmaster decided philosophy occasionally plays a part in schools. I that economics was clearly not part of education. He could take him to a couple of primary schools not six told the English master to see the five of us who had miles from here where it is argued by the head teachers taken that option in the sixth form. The English that it improves behaviour in the playground. However, master, Mr Brierley, who was the great discoverer of that is a separate matter. Harold Pinter, introduced us to things that we had On the amendments before us, it is important that never heard of, one of which has become a total we get this matter right one way or the other. I do not obsession of mine—philosophy. accept the connection to 1935, and nor does my noble To return to my earlier remarks, I have wasted more colleague who proposed the amendment, but if you time reading about analytical philosophy than I care look at the argument and the tussle going on in to remember, but that was part of my education. Scotland at the moment over the history curriculum Perhaps the Minister can enlighten me, but I do not then you will pause and have thoughts about where believe that those responsible for our national curriculum decisions are finally made and on what basis. There is have ever said that rational argument and logical an issue here. reasoning are what education should be about. All Two things are clear. First, in the end the Secretary that tells me that the last people—having worked at of State has the responsibility to make the decision. the Department of Education as its first ever special That is the current decision and I rest content with adviser, I include in my admonitions officials as well as that. Secondly, though, the Secretary of State, however the Minister—who should be deciding these things clever, will need advice. That advice is of great interest once and for all are Ministers and their officials. We to Members here and elsewhere. I would not propose need outside comment. going backwards and effectively reconstituting the I partly address my next remark to my noble friend QCDA. We have been there and done that, and there Lady Hughes. The one thing that gives me hope is were problems; let us think new thoughts. My own that, although I entirely support her amendment, the inclination as a time-served academic is that when the department should know that many of the rest of us Secretary of State publishes changes to the curriculum, still have our views. Therefore, if something comes up he or she publishes, as a good academic would, a series that we think is totally crackers, the department will of footnotes and references to the advice sought, who still hear from us on this subject, whether we are gave it, to whom it was given, what the advice was and officially consulted or not. whether it was well evidenced. That would give me much greater confidence than setting up a board. Lord Willis of Knaresborough: I shall take us back There is no final expert opinion on what should be to the amendment. I do not have any great love for the in a curriculum. The risk for the QCDA and any QCDA. It was not a perfect organisation; in fact, none successor would be an assumption that there was a of these organisations is perfect. The Government’s right answer. There is not; there are nuances and aim in terms of the drift of the Academies Bill is that leanings in different directions. In the end, that should by the end of this Parliament every secondary school be a matter for the Secretary of State to take a view will be an academy. That is the reality. One of the on, but we need to know what the advice was so that powers of an academy is that they are able to have we can protest if necessary. control over their curriculum. Will the Minister give an assurance relating to schools that become academies and this small core of national curriculum subjects? Baroness Benjamin: My Lords, I agree that philosophy Where will they get their guidance from regarding is very helpful to young children. It helps them understand decisions on the appropriateness of those subjects? who they are and how they fit into this great big world. That is an important consideration and an important I hope the Minister can assure us that when we take function that the QCDA had. advice about what should be in the curriculum, there GC 317 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 318

[BARONESS BENJAMIN] new national curriculum early next year there will be will be representation of our diverse society in the further wide-scale public consultation before final decisions approach that it takes. I believe that will go a long way are made. to helping people from diverse backgrounds understand My noble friend Lady Sharp asked about international who they are and how they fit into our society. evidence. The expert panel to the current curriculum review is looking at the curricula used in the most Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, in abolishing the successful education jurisdictions, including Singapore, QCDA we are not seeking to give the Secretary of Australia and New Zealand, but if I can find more State greater control over the curriculum, nor do we detail I will send that to her. My noble friend Lord wish to reduce the external expertise that can be Willis asked about academies. As he knows, academies brought to bear on qualifications or curriculum policy. are required to provide a broad and balanced curriculum As the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, and and we think that that has been successful to date. others have acknowledged, the formal accountability Although they will not be required to teach the national to Parliament for the curriculum, qualifications and curriculum, we hope that by slimming it down and national curriculum assessment will remain as it is making it less prescriptive academies will want to use now, with Ministers. I note that no one has fought for it as a benchmark. All the material previously available the QCDA to be maintained in its current form. By to schools from the QCDA will be accessible to all removing it, we will bring the delivery of those essential those schools that want to use it. Finally on the functions, which are continuing, back into the department. national curriculum, so regards the current review, we This will improve clarity and transparency, simplify intend to publish all the evidence we have considered the system and save money. when we bring forward proposals. We think that the arrangements are in place to draw As has been pointed out, under the existing legislation, on appropriate advice as policies are developed. We do the Secretary of State already makes decisions in not believe that the abolition of the QCDA will lead to respect of the national curriculum. What will change increased government power or control over what I is that the Secretary of State will become directly accept are critical elements of our education system. responsible for taking forward the statutory consultation There will be safeguards to ensure transparency and process whenever the national curriculum needs to be hold the Secretary of State to account. amended. In future, the Secretary of State will have to have more direct responsibility than has arguably been 4.45 pm the case previously, for changes to the curriculum, for justifying how the decisions to make those changes Lord Willis of Knaresborough: I am grateful to the have been arrived at, and their implications. Minister for giving way. An academy will have total I hope I can give some reassurance to noble Lords control over its curriculum and will not have to consult on the issue that I think lies at the heart of this. anyone about the subjects it teaches. While I take his Consultation on changes to the national curriculum point that most will want to follow the national curriculum, will continue to be a requirement. The Secretary of if an academy wanted to substitute creationism for State will have to conduct a formal consultation with Darwinism in its science curriculum, will it be able to interested parties, including local authorities, schools, do that without having to ask permission of the Secretary teachers and others—the kind of people that my noble of State or to consult with anyone else? Is that correct? friend Lady Benjamin mentions. The precise groups with which he will need to consult are, as now: associations Lord Hill of Oareford: It is not the case that the of local authorities, bodies representing the interests teaching of creationism in science, for example, is of governing bodies, organisations representing school possible in academies because I believe that there are teachers and other persons with an interest in the safeguards in place to prevent it. Further, there are proposals, which is a fairly broad group. Everyone various ways through the funding agreement by which would have to have a reasonable opportunity to make one can exercise control. The basic point about freedom representations, there would have to be a consultation, over the curriculum is that, through the funding agreement, and the Cabinet Office advice, as now, is that that academies need to provide a broad and balanced should be for at least 12 weeks. After the consultation curriculum that includes English, maths and science. has ended, the Secretary of State has to consider the That is the degree of specificity over the governance. responses and must publish a summary of the views expressed—which relates to the point raised by the Baroness Morris of Yardley: The Minister’s answer noble Lord, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood. The to his noble friend’s question is substantially right in summary published by the Secretary of State will that if a school tried to teach creationism, something deliver the degree of openness and transparency for would happen to prevent that. I accept that. But I which noble Lords have argued. Then, as now, final thought his comments on how that would happen decisions would remain with the Secretary of State. were interesting. He said that something in the funding The Government are certainly committed to ensuring agreement would stop it. I cannot imagine that a that everyone with an interest in the national curriculum funding agreement would be drawn up merely to prevent is given an opportunity to offer their views. The current creationism being taught in a school, which leads me review of the national curriculum, launched in January, to believe that the agreement also gives the Secretary is being conducted in an open manner and we are of State further influence and powers over the curriculum looking for views from a wide range of interested in academies. Can he explain what those powers are parties. Once we have published our proposals for a and how they might be used? GC 319 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 320

Lord Hill of Oareford: The point on the funding The difference that we can all recognise is that at the agreement is the one that I mentioned to my noble moment the range of additional people is decided by friend Lord Willis, which is that the agreement specifies an independent body, not the Secretary of State who that academies will provide a broad and balanced has to make the final decision. That is a crucial difference. curriculum that includes English, maths and science. I There is another crucial difference at the end of will need to follow up on the point about creationism that process. Whereas the QCDA at present must and write to the noble Baroness explaining what the arrange for a full report to be published, the advice mechanism is to prevent that happening. It is prevented that we are given by officials is that, and I will make that clear in a letter. “After the consultation has ended, the Secretary of State will On that point, I would now ask the noble Baroness, consider the responses and publish a summary of the views Lady Hughes, to withdraw the amendment. expressed and a draft of the regulations” that he wants to bring forward. In other words, it is again in the gift of the Secretary of State to decide Baroness Howe of Idlicote: Could we all have a copy what to publish and what to reveal about what was of the letter explaining how creationism is prevented said during the consultation process. That is not an being taught? acceptable process in this day and age, and there needs to be some division in terms of the independence of Baroness Hughes of Stretford: I thank the Minister the consultation, the analysis, the recommendations for his response and all noble Lords for their contributions and the final decision of the Secretary of State. We to this important issue. The point raised by the noble may return to this matter on Report but, for now, I beg Lord, Lord Willis, is extremely important and reflects leave to withdraw the amendment. one of the constant challenges in the Bill. We are debating proposals for change, many of which will not Amendment 85A withdrawn. apply if the brave new world in which every school is an academy comes into being. It is an issue that I want Amendment 85B not moved. to raise later in relation to admissions. In response to the Minister’s offer to provide a letter specifically in Clause 24 agreed. relation to creationism, perhaps it could be sent to all noble Lords so as to address the broader question Schedule 8 agreed. raised by my noble friend Lady Morris of Yardley. Precisely what control does the Secretary of State or anyone else have over other potentially unwanted Clause 25 agreed. developments in the curriculum at an academy? It might be some other obscure and unusual development, Amendment 86 not moved. so it would be good to know what controls are in place. Schedule 9 agreed. The Minister acknowledged the point that decision and accountability rests with the Secretary of State, Clause 26 : Education and training support services in and I perfectly accept that. The point at issue here is England the process that leads up to that. The Minister has said that the Secretary of State, not the QCDA or some replacement for it—none of us is defending any particular Amendment 86A body; we are talking about the process in principle—would Moved by Baroness Jones of Whitchurch have responsibility not only for the final decision but for the process of consultation. While the Minister has 86A: Clause 26, page 27, line 13, at beginning insert “Subject given some assurances that the Secretary of State will to subsection (7),” consult with the three groups that the QCDA now has to consult—the local authorities, governing bodies Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, I shall and teachers—beyond that, the parameters of the speak also to Amendments 86B, 86C, 86D, 86E and review will be determined by the Secretary of State 86F. These relate to concerns about the future of and not by an independent body.Therefore, any academics schools careers advice and to the increasing concern of which the Secretary of State chooses to include in the professionals and employers that the Bill is failing to process of review beyond those three groups can simply meet the real challenges facing this sector. be those academics which support the view that the Before I continue, I acknowledge with thanks the Secretary of State starts off with. While it may be of letter of 8 July that I received from the Minister, which some assurance that the written submissions may be set out in more detail what is envisaged in the new published at the end of the process, it will be too late career guidance service. I shall paraphrase it, although for someone with alternative views to be consulted. I am sure that the Minister has his own version. It Officials sent round a note on how the new process says, first, that Connexions was not providing a would work. I do not know if every Member received consistently high-quality service to all young people it, but my noble friend and I did. It states that beyond and that it had to change. To a certain extent, I would those three groups which have to be consulted on a agree with that. Secondly, the letter also goes on to statutory basis, the Secretary of State will, argue that schools should be left to organise their own “need to give notice of the proposal to any other persons with careers provision and be held to account only through whom he thinks it would be desirable to consult”. what is described as a “destination measure” of where GC 321 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 322

[BARONESS JONES OF WHITCHURCH] The Government have indicated that going forward young people go when they leave school. We very the duty to provide careers advice may be satisfied by much disagree with this approach and I shall explain phone or online services. While we recognise that this why shortly. may have a role, we absolutely do not accept that this is enough to ensure that young people get tailored First, I will deal with the end of the ring-fenced guidance in tune with their talents, abilities and aspirations. funding for Connexions and the transition to the Young people are happy to talk on the phone to their all-age careers service, which is covered in our amendments friends for hours, but when it comes to talking to to Clause 26. All the evidence shows that Connexions someone older or someone in authority, all too often careers services around the country are closing as we they pass the phone to their parents and ask them to speak. A desperately worrying scenario is developing make that phone call for them. I genuinely do not of a cohort of young people being left with no careers think that young people will be confident enough to advice at all, as one service ends and nothing substantial deal with quite complicated issues on the phone. In the is yet in place to replace it. The department appears to same way as they require a face-to-face environment have passed the buck on to individual schools rather for mentoring or indeed teaching, this type of contact than have a coherent transitional plan. As the ASCL is just as necessary when young people are discussing has said: their future job plans and their future life. Therefore “More than 2 million young people aged 16 to 19 could lose our amendments would require schools to provide out on valuable careers services while the Government overhauls high quality, face-to-face careers advice. the national careers advice service at a time when young people’s unemployment is reaching record highs”. This advice is particularly important to children Meanwhile, we are all still awaiting the detail of the from backgrounds where they do not have access to a design of the new all-age careers service: its duties, the social network of people in a variety of jobs, and even services it will provide, where it will be located and more so when the parents do not work or where there how it can be accessed. In the Commons debate, the is intergenerational unemployment. Good careers advice Minister said that the new service would be ready to can make a big difference in driving social mobility, go this September, with the full service in place from expanding pupils’ horizons and helping them to see April 2012. In the meantime, the Secretary of State themselves working in different environments. We believe has stated that in 2011-12 school budgets will not rise that these matters are too important to be left to to take account of their new legal responsibility to schools’ discretion. We also foresee the possibility of a provide careers guidance for young people, as set out postcode lottery developing, with careers services around in this Bill. This lack of ring-fencing means that the country varying considerably depending on the schools will be forced to find funds from existing resources available, thus mirroring some of the problems budgets, leading to the inevitable conclusion that the we have already identified with the Connexions service. Government intend to provide careers services on the cheap. Perhaps the Minister could explain what interim Our amendments also address the age range when provision is being made for those young people awaiting young people should be able to access advice and the a full careers service next year. I am sure that he will frequency at which it should be provided. The Bill acknowledge that this is particularly fraught given the limits careers advice to those aged between 14 and 16. current high levels of youth unemployment. Our first That is not good enough. EngineeringUK, for example, set of amendments would achieve the simple but has identified the need for much earlier advice through important aim of delivering continuity by requiring what it calls the “Year 8 dip”, which is when the the Secretary of State to report to Parliament on the appetite for tough science and maths decreases in details of a transition plan before the new careers young people. The organisation goes on to say: service can take effect. “We believe that at this point, and at other critical points We move on to the next set of amendments in this along the academic pathway, we need well informed careers group, which define and improve the package of careers advisers in schools able to inspire and inform young people about advice young people should be able to access in the careers in engineering and other science, technology, engineering future. Our amendments are set against a backdrop of and maths areas”. increasingly complex careers choices being faced by We agree with that analysis, and it could equally apply young people and evidence that lack of information is to other subject areas. One careers advice session held seen by young people as one of the main barriers to during the term when a student leaves school is too their participation in education or training post-16. late. It should be provided at regular intervals before We do not accept that the quality careers guidance that key milestones in a pupil’s academic life, and our we all know is necessary can be delivered simply by the amendments would provide for that. publication of data on pupils’ post-school destinations. For example, there will be a terrible temptation for Finally, the amendments also seek to ensure that providers to push young people into destinations which only those trained in careers guidance can provide the score more highly rather than those that play to their formal careers advice to which pupils are entitled. individual strengths and interests. At the same time, Without these amendments, there is no guarantee that there will be a real challenge to keep accurate statistics advice would be provided by a trained professional or and track the longer-term destinations of young people. that it would cover the full range of options, including There may be statistics on their destinations immediately academic and vocational options. I accept that in the after school but surely what we are interested in is the guidance the noble Lord may well refer to that it is longer-term careers choices they make as a result of seen as something that is “desirable”, but our amendments the careers guidance that they get. would make it an explicit requirement. GC 323 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 324

5pm We have been tentatively trying to get this right for In a memorandum submitted to the Public Bill a number of years. As a result of some of the concerns Committee, Careers England and the Institute of Career that I expressed at the time, we moved towards a Guidance called for a national quality standard. It system of contractorisation in the 1990s. We then was also part of the recommendation of the Careers came back to a measure of centralisation, or at least Profession Task Force, and we agree with this. The standardisation, through the Connexions service— world of work is changing rapidly and careers guidance although that also varied very much in its salience to cannot be left to individuals whose experience of the target audience—and locally, in my view. Now, my entering the job market could, in some cases, date noble friend the Minister, whose initiative I welcome, back to 30 or 40 years ago. We all understand the need is providing in this clause a new duty on schools to to tackle disadvantage, which all too often is exacerbated secure independent guidance. by poor education and career choices. In the Commons, We were talking in the previous group of amendments the Minister referred to a report which stated that: about philosophy. Probably the only lesson that I “State school pupils are more than four times as likely to be given remember from my moral philosophy days—although bad careers advice as private school students”. it is important—is that there is a distinction between We believe that the package of measures we are proposing saying that something ought to happen and saying will go some way towards redressing this failure and that there ought to be a law to ensure that something give all pupils the right to high quality, individualised, happens. In this place, we should all be mindful that it face-to-face advice at critical times in their education is not absolutely necessary to ring-fence and litigate to journey. I hope that noble Lords will feel able to achieve everything, and that there is an important support these measures. I beg to move. duty on schools to say, “We need to think about this, Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, I shall speak to obtain independent advice, and make sure that that Amendment 86G which is tabled in my name and I advice is perceptibly independent”. shall touch on some of the wider issues that have been It is therefore important that in drawing the distinction raised by Opposition Members in introducing this we are not subverting the need for schools to provide debate. Perhaps I should say at the outset that I am a good-quality careers education or work experience. member of the independent Skills Commission, although They should open up the eyes of young people to the it is not a formal interest. It has members from different opportunities before they make critical decisions. I parties as well as a large number of professionals. was once caricatured as saying at the margins of the Some years ago the commission was involved in drawing Skills Commission, “Oh, you are in favour of work up a report on independent advice and guidance in experience for five year-olds”. It is not quite like that which, interestingly, we placed quite a lot of emphasis but there is a point at which we need to keep the two on reporting the growth in social media and online worlds of education and of work at least in touch with resources as well as the conventional role of the careers one another through the whole school career. I am service. I shall come back to that in a moment. I, too, delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, is nodding. have a strong engagement with apprenticeships. The I think we understand that we need to do that, and it is work preparation for, or the option of, opening up something on which schools need to continue to focus. young people’s eyes to the world of work is critical and, as I have already adverted to the Committee, I We then reach the point of gateway—the moment had previous responsibility as a Minister for progression of serious consideration of the next stage. It is terribly from schools and FE. important, for the reasons of moral hazard that I mentioned, that we make it clear that schools are First, I acknowledge the huge amount of good expected to take independent advice and guidance at done by individual careers teachers and in guidance. that point, in the interests of their pupils. That can be That is an important distinction in the Minister’s supplemented by the electronic media and all the rest proposals set out in his helpful letter to Members of of it, but it is a necessary stage. the Committee, which draw a distinction that is often blurred between education and guidance. While I The spirit of my amendment and my concern is that acknowledge how much has been done in the past—and we are feeling our way in trying to provide a better it is 20 years since I had ministerial responsibility—there service in the interests of young people—one that have, in my experience, always been patchiness, failures enables them to express their choices. The Government in the system, and a system that is less ideal than the are right in doing that. There have been concerns from one we would wish for now. In particular, there have the Institute of Career Guidance and other professionals. always been two problems in schools. The first is the I can understand why many of them feel very strongly moral hazard of schools seeking to keep hold of about it, but I would say that the status quo has not pupils who might be much more properly referred to, been entirely successful and we need to look at a better and have much more successful opportunities within, way of doing this that respects the different roles in further education or the private training provider route. education and guidance, and mentoring and development, Secondly, there is a simple cultural difficulty, which is and moves on to the adult careers service whose that some of those schools—particularly if they are introduction is to be welcomed. We need to make teaching conventional and general academic subjects—are sure that there are no wrong doors or closed doors, not aware of the whole complexity of the issue. That and that people are given good signposting through very much centres on, for example, the offer that is the process. In that connection, the substance of my now made in apprenticeship frameworks, which are Amendment 86G would be to say, “Do not subvert the qualitatively different from what was available some Government’s proposals now, but do leave it open and years ago. make it a requirement on the Government to report GC 325 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 326

[LORD BOSWELL OF AYNHO] know the breadth of what is on offer, despite the fact back within three years”. I do not quite accept the that some excellent web careers advice is available: for tone of the noble Baroness which suggests that everything example, Careers Box, with little video snips on YouTube is falling apart now, although of course I understand and young people talking about their experiences of her concerns. I do not believe that that need necessarily apprenticeships or their first time in work. The difficulty be the case at all. If I am wrong about that, I would at is that young people often do not know what is out least like to feel that Ministers are monitoring this there, and starting to look is very difficult. I can give within a finite period of time, so that we may ensure you an anecdote from the time when I was chair of the –and I hope this time to achieve—the best possible Cambridgeshire Learning and Skills Council, where experience and support for our young people. we had a very severe shortage in the construction industry of both plumbers and electricians. If you ask Baroness Brinton: My Lords, I rise to speak to most 12 and 13 year-olds who know they probably Amendments 86AA, 86CZA and 86DB in my name want to do something with their hands whether they and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford. want to go into construction, the chances are that they I want to start by commenting on the last point made will say no, and I am not sure that many school by the noble Lord, Lord Boswell of Aynho. There is a teachers would automatically guide them in that direction. real crisis currently in career advisers’ roles as local The LSA and FE colleges worked with careers authorities face some very difficult decisions, and a advisers and Connexions to really give young people review even in a year’s time will be too late. I therefore an opportunity. I am pleased to say that within one support the proposal made earlier by the noble Baroness, year both plumbing and electrical courses were Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that there be a transition oversubscribed and continued to be because word plan to make sure that we do not miss it. went back to these young people’s peers. If we remove Our amendments focus on very specific issues arising from the loop the very specialist knowledge that careers out of the new proposals for the careers service. The advisers have, we might well have a problem if advice first is a slightly technical one regarding schools being is not independent and certainly if it is restricted to the responsible body for careers advice. In theory this just the experience that schools have. makes sense. However, the draft legislation removes the right of local authorities to enter the school and to 5.15 pm ensure that careers advice is appropriate. This is particular bizarre since local authorities are specifically charged Thirdly, as others have said, we have to ensure that with ensuring that children with special needs and the advice is truly impartial and independent. I am those in PRUs get the advice and support that they sorry to say that some schools still pressure young require. The same is also true for the National Careers people to stay on to continue with AS-levels even if it Service, which has no right to check on the quality of is not in their best interests. Again, the Minister’s note careers advice and guidance. I suppose it could do so is helpful in reinforcing the key point about independent from a distance, but, frankly, there may be occasions advice and guidance but this is so important that when it would want to look at a specific school. I we want to see advisers having to be qualified. That therefore hope that the Minister will look at this would provide two benefits. First, we will have an matter again, and will make sure that the bodies assurance about the knowledge and skill base of advisers charged with responsibility for careers advice nationally, —they, too, will recognise that—and, as importantly, but also those locally with very specific responsibility it will give careers advisers the professional status that for the most vulnerable pupils, actually have an they deserve. opportunity to check what is going on in schools. Starting careers advice at the age of 14 is too late, I fully support the proposal that advice and guidance once options for Year 11 have been chosen—whether must be independent. I am grateful to the Minister for it be the EBacc or other courses. As already commented his helpful letter and detailed attachment which has on, the Year 8 dip is a well-known phenomenon. This already been referred to. Ambitions for the new careers country desperately needs more engineers, scientists service are set out well therein. However, the Bill is and mathematicians but, if we look at the subjects silent on some key issues which would provide reassurance chosen at AS-level and A2, those are consistently and guarantee independence and the excellence quality. going down. That needs to be remedied. Starting First, there are no plans for quality assurance to assess guidance earlier is important, whether at 13 or even 12 whether schools secure that independent, impartial as another amendment suggests. careers advice and guidance. In response to the question Again, an illustration of this from my local area is a on how the Government will monitor the new duty, web advice tool about pathways—which was mentioned the note from the Minister says: before. A 13 or 14 year-old can actually see how “Schools should be accountable to the pupils, parents and choosing a course that they do at 16 might lead on to communities they serve in respect of this duty”. either an apprenticeship, a vocational or even academic I suspect that most pupils, parents and communities qualification, which might lead them into a profession. would find the very onerous duty of monitoring quality I suspect that the point about expecting outcomes control somewhat beyond them. I am not sure that it from 16 to 18 year-olds to tell us whether a careers fulfils what we seek to cover in our amendment. service’s advice is working well is far too short-sighted. Much has been said about the importance of We need something significant earlier on. technology in an earlier amendment. But we are really Finally, I will speak briefly in support of the concerned about face-to-face advice and guidance amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Low, on information, disappearing from the Bill. Young people often do not advice and guidance for special needs pupils. City GC 327 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 328

College Norwich has a special unit for pupils with ought to tell you that you will be competing against autism spectrum disorders which has transformed their other people with enormous talent. Are you sure that experience. The guidance is very wide-ranging. It has that is the risky option that you want to take”. That to be different from the standard one size fits all that only reinforces my noble friend’s view that we cannot we even had under the Connexions service. I met a let amateurs take over the service. Among amateurs, young man whose experience was that, as he started at we must include teachers. That includes university 16 at the college, he and his family thought that he teachers, although we are not talking about them at would never get a job because of his Asperger’s. He the moment. Essentially, my noble friend is pressing was offered some work experience in the college library— the Minister on the point that we need a commitment simple, repetitive work that absolutely fitted in with to a fully professional careers advice service covering a his needs. Two years on, he is working full-time there. great range of areas. We must find funds to support That is a significant success story. I know that other that service; we cannot leave it to the school itself. pupils at City College Norwich have had similar success. We have to accept that we need special provision for pupils with SEN. Thank you. Baroness Howe of Idlicote: I am certainly in sympathy with everything that has been said on this subject. It takes me back quite a long way to the Sex Discrimination Lord Peston: In supporting my noble friend, I start and Equal Pay Acts, in which education was one of by placing this whole problem in a proper context. A the areas covered. We spent quite a lot of time encouraging five year-old going for the first time to school this teachers in girls’ schools to take a more proactive role autumn has a life expectancy of 85 or maybe 95 years. in opening up ideas of different careers for the girls The thought that you can really tell them about the than was the tradition. I am sad to say that there is still world in which they will pursue their working lives is quite a gap there. On the comment made about teachers rather difficult. In my younger days as an economist in not being adequate to do that job, it would not be a the economics of education, I wrote a number of bad idea as part of their training if, periodically, they papers about relating education and what should be in had to take a job for a while in the real world to see education to the needs of the economy. I did not what are the practices here and now. realise that they were rubbish at the time that I published In engineering, all these years later, there is a dearth them but it was obvious that they were rubbish not of girls prepared to take on that career. It depends to many years afterwards. Those days have somewhat some extent on the people they see out there in the real gone, although they did not hold me back in my world. If not many have made it to the top of their career. career, are running things and are looked up to by the The central point about what careers advice will rest of the engineering world, they are not as likely to have to focus on is this long period—most of which, go down that route. I hope that we will address that from the point of view of the economy, is difficult or aspect. even impossible to forecast. The advice given must really concentrate on that aspect of the matter. That I hope that my noble friend Lord Low will soon means that it must overwhelmingly be professional. speak to his amendment. On the responsibility for special educational needs, I entirely agree with him If I may move into anecdote mode, after I had left that there is an enormous need to start that process the LSE as a lecturer to become a professor, one of my early—incidentally, that is true for practically all girls. old friends who was still a lecturer said to me, “One of It is interesting to note that the Equality and Human the students has just been to see me. He is thinking of Rights Commission makes the point by stating that a dropping out of his degree because he has a pop quarter of children in primary school want to go on to group. What advice would you have given him?”. I higher education. Among girls, more than 80 per cent said, “Get your degree first and then possibly think have that aspiration. If they have it already, at least it about the pop group”. He said, “I gave him the same should be kept going by giving them examples of the advice and he more or less told me to drop dead”. The many areas where their skills would be needed. There student’s name was Mick Jagger. That is a very good is clearly a role for governors here. They have a role to example of why giving casual, off-the-cuff careers play in this already, so this is not providing a new one advice to people is not the path to go down. That does because it is all part of what needs to be made available not mean that the professionals can get it exactly to pupils. I am certain that parents in the local area right, but I am certain that my noble friend is right to would take that view. emphasise that careers advice requires a very subtle expertise, because it is not easy to get over to people One other area I want to stress is that of the role of how complicated their whole lives and choice of careers the universities themselves. Many of them already will be. send their students, voluntarily of course, particularly into schools where the aspiration among pupils to go Another aspect of this has always troubled me. Our on to higher education is not high. I am sure that the young people are marvellous and lots of them are Government will be pleased to know that that sort of incredibly talented— particularly in the arts. We produce advice does not cost very much, but it is very good marvellous young actors, musicians, and so on. Our practice for the students themselves and helpful to the problem is that the demand for such people is—and, I aspirations of the pupils. guess, always will be—less than the available supply. One reason why we require not merely experts in our careers service but people with a human touch is that Baroness Wall of New Barnet: I support most of the they must explain to people, “If you insist on going amendments in the group and I want to focus in down that path—and I do not want to stop you—I particular on careers advice, on which many other GC 329 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 330

[BARONESS WALL OF NEW BARNET] the Apprenticeship Act, we had a lot of this advice in noble Lords have already led. I agree totally with there but maybe it was just not robust enough in terms everyone who has spoken that unless careers advice is of coming back and checking how this was doing, independent, it is very worrying. I hope that the Minister because it is still a major problem. will consider whether Ofsted should include as part of its assessment of the effectiveness of a school how well it provides careers advice. It would not be an unusual Lord Griffiths of Burry Port: My Lords, I preface process for Ofsted to get involved in. Although I agree my remarks by asking for some agreement on definitions. with my noble friend Lord Peston that at the age of It is the word “school” that interests me. In its broadest five you do not know what you are going to do, in this sense, and I think that we would all concur with this, it day and age people start taking an interest at a much is a community of people focused on the well-being younger age. and the best interests of children and pupils. It has been used in a different way in this debate, though, An area of concern has been raised by a number of and it is in that different way that I would like to use it, employers who I have been talking to, along with a while remaining conscious of the base meaning that number of colleges. Recently I visited Newcastle College lies behind it. and North Lindsey College in Scunthorpe for Training 2000. What those colleges said was music to my ears. We have been using the word “school” to mean Although some careers advice is okay, a lot is obviously those who govern our schools. Schools are expected to inadequate. But the principal at Newcastle College take independent advice, and new legislation is placing said that when she was a young girl—it was probably a a duty on schools to achieve two objectives—just two while ago—no one had ever talked to her at school examples from this very debate. I am interested in that what it would mean if she went down a certain career definition of “school”, which I think amounts to path: how much would she earn and what would be “governing body and head teacher”, who are expected, her prospects going forward? Perhaps we have stayed in the way that things are developing, to achieve more away from those questions as well. For me, she made a and more than has been done elsewhere until now. telling point because, whether we like it or not, they I do not flinch at that. I am a governor and chair of are keen to know if they will have money to spend. a foundation that runs two schools in the inner city Through Semta I have been working with a careers here in London. We try our hardest as governors and adviser at BAE Systems, which has a programme in head teachers in the area of career development, place in which representatives talk to young people particularly because we see increasingly that, if we about what it means to be an engineer and explain that want to achieve excellence in the provision that we it is not the dirty job that everyone thinks it is. There is offer, partnership with other schools is increasingly a slide presentation to describe the earning potential going to be the way forward. I do not know how every at each stage of someone’s career progression. Some school can produce an adequate and rich service in people might flinch at that, but in the real world of this area. In the Borough of Islington, for example, 2011-12, it is absolutely where young people are. It is our school operates with others and we try to pool our the kind of information that is not always readily best efforts and to make careers advice available in a available. You can follow a pathway through looking richer and broader way. at sector skills councils, but what is not often linked to In another initiative that perhaps I might report it is the thought that, “If I work really hard and because it is of some interest, our inner city school progress from this level to that level, what will that co-operates with a school in the independent sector, mean for me going forward in the sense of my future the Leys School in Cambridge, and we cross-fertilise career?”. and attend each other’s careers festivals. I have to say that the independent sector provides a somewhat narrower 5.30 pm focus for the range of careers that it seeks to interest I emphasise, as others have, the funding of this people in, but, for all that, it is richly provided for by careers advice. A number of people who have supported those who come and help people in conversation and me in these contributions have given me information. all the rest of it. The previous Government put money into careers We have not quite got reciprocity to the point where advice—now, obviously, two departments are dealing I would like to see it, with people from the independent with this, with BIS and the Department for Education— sector coming to us for careers advice. We are situated but the DfE’s financial involvement is down to £7 million. on the edge of the City of London, and some quite Before, when we were working with Connexions, extraordinary people come to us from City institutions £200 million was put into this. The current figure will to offer that kind of advice, which people from Cambridge get us some computer-aided stuff and some advice. could well benefit from. If we are envisaging that We can complain like crazy about young people not schools, in the way that I am defining them, will understanding where they are going and what the provide an adequate service across the land, with advice to them might be, but that does not come every school expected to provide excellence all the cheap. We need to ensure that we have a sound resource time in careers advice, we are just baying for the moon. underneath all that. For me, having an Ofsted appraisal Those are two initiatives that I can report now. of this included in how well a school was doing would Throughout my contribution to the discussions of mean that we had something substantial to measure. the Bill, I am afraid that I will drone on about the I agree with the amendment of the noble Lord, extra expectations that are coming the way of schools— Lord Boswell, that says, “Let’s look at this every three that is, governing bodies and head teachers. During years”. When the previous Government introduced this afternoon’s debate alone, the responsibility for GC 331 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 332 shaping and focusing the curriculum has fallen to to 12 to 18. That is particularly necessary for disabled governors and head teachers. I am not saying that they young people, as many will stay in school up to the age should not do that, but more and more expectations of of 19, and their most critical decisions usually take schools as independent and freestanding bodies are place between the ages of 16 and 19. coming our way. There is the curriculum, now there is The Equality and Human Rights Commission is careers advice. Before we finish our discussion on the concerned that the age range for careers guidance Bill, what else will be expected of governors? I am provided for in the Bill is too narrow. It is particularly a governor. I attend, as regularly as I can, refresher concerned that starting careers guidance at 14 is too courses offered by my local authority. I try to be late adequately to address equality issues associated up-to-date with seminars and other things that stretch with subjects or career choices. It is also concerned your mind about new possibilities offered for all of us. that the new duty requiring careers guidance to be I look around the table. I see some absent places where delivered at key stage 4 only, from 14 to 16, will mean a some very busy people are feeling increasingly deskilled regression from the current statutory provision that and disempowered to do the tasks expected of them—all requires a programme of careers education to be delivered voluntarily, without a single penny coming our way. for key stages 3 and 4, from 11 to 16. As we go down this path and pass more and more responsibility to the school, under the definition I Young people begin to develop ideas about careers have offered, we must bear in mind that implementation at an early age, and the commission’s evidence suggests of these grand ideas will be left to people who will be that starting careers guidance at 14 will present a under greater and greater burdens. major barrier to raising aspirations and equipping young people to make future decisions free from Baroness Benjamin: My Lords— stereotyped ideas. Evidence-based reviews and research have consistently called for career-related learning to begin in primary school—as it currently does in Scotland, Baroness Garden of Frognal: If my noble friend will which is usually ahead of England in educational forgive me, I invite the noble Lord, Lord Low to speak matters—so that high aspirations and achievement to his amendment in the group. can be encouraged early. A new report from the commission indicates that primary school pupils’ Lord Low of Dalston: I am very happy to oblige the aspirations are formed and are higher at a relatively Committee. As my amendment has already been referred young age. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, to several times and spoken to very eloquently by the has already referred to the evidence from that report noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, there is not really a lot which shows that three-quarters of children at primary for to me to say, but it is obviously correct that I school want to go into higher education—among girls, should speak to it. this figure is more than 80 per cent. Gender influences Before I do that, I want to make a few comments on begin very early, with boys in primary school interested some of the other amendments in this large group. in sport and girls in performance, hairdressing and Some work is required on the section of the Bill nursing. Evidence from the EHRC’s triennial review dealing with careers guidance to ensure that it is reveals the extent to which particular groups continue effectively disability-proofed. I know that the Minister to experience a higher level of occupational segregation, is very sympathetic on that matter, so I hope that he particularly related to gender, ethnicity and disability. will be able to give me reassurances on one or two The commission believes that school careers services points. have a key role in providing clear, impartial guidance to help inform young people’s choices for long-term First, in supporting the amendment moved by the career-related experiences and progression, free from noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, I seek clarification. career-limiting stereotyped ideas. When the amendment refers to “professionally qualified” careers practitioners, is it clear that the new professional Before I sit down, I clearly need to refer to my quality standards include comprehensive training for amendment, which would place a duty on the governing all careers guidance practitioners on working with bodies and head teachers of schools to provide unlimited disabled young people and adults? It is very important face-to-face careers guidance for all young people with that those working in the field should know about the a learning difficulty and/or disability, whether or not barriers which disabled people experience, the perceptual they have a statement of special educational needs and barriers that often restrict their career choices. in both mainstream and specialist settings. The I also want to be sure that the triennial report for amendment more or less speaks for itself. It is a good which the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, calls in his idea that the Secretary of State should prescribe standards amendment would include the effect of the provisions for careers guidance, in the manner provided for in the in this section of the Bill on disadvantaged groups of new clause tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes young people, specifically including young people with and Lady Jones. It is obviously right that we should a learning difficulty and/or disability. place on governing bodies and head teachers of schools a duty to comply with the standards set out by the I should like to say a little more about Amendments Secretary of State. 86E and 86F in the name of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes and Lady Jones, because they deal with I want to underline two particular points in my new a very important issue: the age range during which clause. First, on “face-to-face”, we know that the careers guidance should be provided. Those two careers service will offer web-based and telephone amendments would extend the age range through which helpline advice for all students, but disabled learners, schools must provide careers guidance from 14 to 16 in particular, require face-to-face support. Secondly, GC 333 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 334

[LORD LOW OF DALSTON] service, particularly in light of the squeeze on local I have put “unlimited” in the new clause simply to government finances and, as the noble Baroness, Lady ensure that the duty is to provide as much guidance as Wall, pointed out, the reduction of money devoted to is required and that it is not arbitrarily limited to a set this service by the Department for Education; £7 million amount or quota. I hope very much that this new is a miserable sum and far too little. There is also the clause will commend itself to the Minister, as it seeks problem of transition, mentioned by the noble Baroness, to impose duties at the local level, where they can most Lady Jones. effectively be implemented. Another problem is the shortage of professionals in this area. Not only have people trained to deliver 5.45 pm careers guidance left the profession, but not enough Baroness Benjamin: My Lords, I rise to support the people have been properly trained to provide the new amendment and to tell noble Lords a little story. Back service. One thing that the Government might do to in 1965, my mother and sister went to see the careers show their earnest in setting up the new service would officer and my sister said that she wanted to work at a be to establish a crash course in training careers advisers. leading pharmaceutical company. The careers officer They are graduates who do a one-year master’s course said: “I am sorry, Sandra. They don’t take coloured to qualify and they are desperately needed. As I said, people there”. My mother said, “I brought my children we have the transition problem from 2011-12; let us to England to learn and to be educated, and they have grab this opportunity and invest in the service as worked hard to do so. Surely that is not possible”. The required. That would show the Government’s willingness careers officer said, “I am terribly sorry. I can get her a to support it; they would be putting their money job as a nursery nurse, but not one in a pharmaceutical where their mouth is, so to speak. I realise that the company”. My mother proved her wrong. She got my question of money is very difficult. sister to write for an interview. She got the job and she worked there for 30 years. But sadly, the myth still Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, I, too, applies today, and there are many young people who support the group of amendments so ably moved by do not believe that they will be accepted in certain the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. I support them because places. as a group they correct a number of the anomalies It is for that reason that I have set up an initiative inherent in Clause 27. The amendments are consistent called Touching Success. I get successful people to with good learning and with the frequency of provision. visit young people in schools and invite them into their Face-to-face opportunity to discuss career needs is of organisations. This helps to help to inspire these young very high value, and the Bill is deficient in this area. people to believe in themselves and understand that We recognise the important contribution that trained they can work and will be accepted outside their and qualified professionals can make. postcode. This is important because many of them do Of course, when a person chooses to have career not often see role models they can identify with. That advice, it is because they are uncertain of their direction is why I believe we need experts to engage with young of travel. The whole purpose of it is to examine the people, especially those from diverse, disadvantaged options and alternatives available with professionals and lower-income backgrounds who do not believe in who are honest, who test one’s capability and who themselves. They do not see that they can succeed. advise. There are many people who start out wanting Careers advice is essential to helping them understand to take an academic route, and who finish up taking that they will be accepted and can go beyond where the vocational option, or vice versa: that is the benefit they see themselves. We need experts to help them, of career advice. I fail to see how you will get that as my mother did with that careers officer way back interaction and that positive two-way challenge—because in 1965. Believe in yourself and the world is your it can be a challenge—under what is proposed. What oyster. Anything is possible. That is why I support this is being proposed is an all-age careers service. I have amendment. no difficulty with that as a principle. Indeed, I believe that the Careers Service should and can extend throughout one’s working life. That happens in industry, where Lord Elton: I shall speak, if I may, to Amendments 86E managers and senior professionals are supported with and 86F, about the age at which careers advice is made personal trainers from time-to-time, who provide career available. When teaching in a secondary school myself, advice on whether to continue or change direction. I remember the agonies associated with seeing how This is why the online provision is deficient, because it early children had to choose which subjects to specialise does not provide the opportunity for challenge and in. All I would ask is that the Minister should bear in interaction. As with so many of the education proposals mind the advisability of having careers advice available which are emerging, we get a lot of promises but some early in the year when the first choice of specialism is degree of under-delivery. I see this career provision of forced on children. the Bill as fitting that area of concern: much is promised, but little substance is delivered when it is tested. Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I want to intervene The fact is that the people who will be denied the briefly on this. I should declare an interest as, like the opportunity for face-to-face career advice are actually noble Lord, Lord Boswell, a member of the Skills the people who may need it most. Not every child has Commission which recommended the development of access to the internet; indeed, in some parts of the an all-age careers service. I welcome the fact that the country, that is for technical reasons, not just real Government have moved in that direction. Currently, poverty. That is adding to the reality of digital poverty two problems arise. One is the rundown of the current from which some communities suffer disadvantage. GC 335 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 336

Careers advice is vital. You must get advice, you to schools, who know their pupils best. That is why in must challenge the provider and the provider must the core of this clause we are seeking to move responsibility interact with your good self. What is so worrying to schools. about this aspect of the Bill is that, to the best of my I agree with the point made by my noble friend knowledge, no one has seen the careers service as Lord Boswell that young people should know about broken, deficient or not meeting the needs of students. the full range of academic and vocational options All my experience is that career advisers care about available to them. I know there are concerns that what they offer and deliver. schools might want to steer children towards staying The Secretary of State is taking away the duty to on in the sixth form, for example. That is why we are provide and replacing it with a duty to provide access. clear in the clause that careers guidance provided That is a fundamental shift in the culture, the duty and under the duty must include information on all 16-to-18 responsibility of the service. There is no way at this or education training options, including apprenticeships. any point that anyone can be certain that what is proposed will lead to better advice. Local authorities, A number of noble Lords have raised points about who have that duty, will not be in the driving seat in age, which I will now address. Clause 27 places a duty procuring professionals to provide better advice but on schools in relation to young people from the start merely carrying through what is decreed by governing of the academic year in which they turn 14 to the end boards and the school. The bond between school, of the academic year in which they turn 16—year 11. local authority and governing bodies will be broken The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, raised when the all-age career advice service online becomes the point, as did my noble friend Lady Brinton and the norm. the noble Lord, Lord Low. The case has been put for extending this age range, both downwards to cover younger pupils and upwards to reach students in Lord Elton: I know that the Committee is anxious school sixth forms and colleges. We are going to to get to the point. The noble Lord has spent some consult formally on the question of extending the duty time demolishing the Government’s position, but we down to year 8 and up to young people aged 18 are discussing amendments to change that position. I studying in schools and FE institutions. That wonder which of those amendments he is supporting. acknowledges a number of points raised here and during the debate in the other place. We have discussed Lord Morris of Handsworth: I indicated at the these plans with the Association of School and College outset that I support the group of amendments moved Leaders, the Association of Colleges and the Sixth by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. That was my start Form Colleges’ Forum, all of which have warmly point. Within the context of those amendments, the welcomed the commitment to consult. Subject to the points I have made refer to issues that coincide clearly consultation the duty could be extended by regulations with the face-to-face provisions and the provisions from September 2012. However, I sense the mood of about experience, and so on. I am clearly satisfied in the Committee about this point and I will therefore that respect. discuss it further with my honourable friend John My point here concerns the shift from the duty to Hayes, the relevant Minister. provide to the duty merely to give access. There is an There have been a number of important contributions opportunity in the amendments for real change to about the importance of quality. There is a clear improve the Bill. I support the group of amendments difference between the approach of this Government moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. and that of the previous Government. Noble Lords opposite have put the case for retaining statutory Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, we know that the safeguards on the way in which schools fulfil their most important determinant of success post-16 is duty to ensure that pupils receive independent guidance. attainment pre-16. I start with a simple point to explain The Government’s approach is not to require schools why the Government have been focusing on investment to work with a particular provider of careers guidance in the early years, why we have been seeking to improve but to make sure that they can commission any specialist the quality of new teachers, why we are bringing in support that they need from a strong market in which reforms to the curriculum and why we have introduced there is choice and diversity, backed up by quality the pupil premium to help to address the gap in standards. That was one of the concerns of the noble attainment between more affluent and more disadvantaged Lord, Lord Peston. backgrounds, which is of concern to everyone in the The National Careers Service will be subject to a Committee. quality standard for publicly funded careers guidance that other providers of careers services will be able to 6pm hold, to assure schools and colleges that they are Noble Lords know that, across the Bill, we are keen delivering a high quality service. The Careers Profession to give schools more freedom to take decisions in the Alliance is bringing together the main professional best interests of the pupils, to have less central prescription bodies for careers for the first time to establish common and focus on inputs and to provide more information professional standards, so that everyone signs up to about actual results. Our approach to careers guidance the same code of ethics and to the same standards of is based on the same principles. It draws on the practice. The Careers Profession Alliance is committed recommendation of the Panel on Fair Access to the to a register of careers professionals, and wishes to Professions, led by the right honourable Alan Milburn, achieve chartered status for careers professionals over that responsibility for careers guidance should be given the next three years. GC 337 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 338

[LORD HILL OF OAREFORD] Noble Lords will know that we want school inspections The noble Lord, Lord Low, asked whether standards to focus on overall results rather than specific inputs, would cover working with disabled people. I will of but we should look closely at how schools are fulfilling course raise that matter with the responsible Minister, this duty. We intend to ask Ofsted to carry out a Mr Hayes. thematic review of careers guidance, as recommended to us by the Careers Profession Task Force. If this As has been mentioned, evidence shows that young shows that there are serious issues, I would expect the people receive advice on their futures from many Government to review the position in the way that my different sources: parents, teachers and obviously careers noble friend Lord Boswell suggested. That review advisers. Some may prefer to get their support from a should also look at the issues raised by the noble Lord, helpline or by researching online. A YouGov poll this Lord Low. year showed that nine in 10 young people were comfortable Overall, the arrangements for careers guidance that with using the internet to access that kind of advice. the Government propose are based on trusting However, none of that detracts from the point that professionals and freeing schools from bureaucracy, qualified professionals have a very important role to trying to give them the opportunity to secure the play in offering support to pupils that raises their specialist support they need from the market, which is aspirations and guides them on to a successful path. characterised by choice and diversity of provision. Clearly, many schools will choose to bring in support Points have been raised about age, which we will from qualified advisers at particular stages or to give reflect upon, about reporting and about quality. I advice to specific groups of pupils hope that noble Lords will recognise that we are The Government’s position is that we should trust taking those steps and that the underlying point of the professionals to deal appropriately with matters moving responsibility to schools, originally recommended such as access to careers guidance or other support to the Government in reports and which has been services, including the sorts of partnerships referred to widely welcomed, will help take that forward. On the by the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port, basis of that further information, I hope that the without recourse to legislation. We should trust them noble Baroness, Lady Jones, will feel able to withdraw to make sensible decisions about how pupils receive her amendment. careers guidance. Noble Lords know that the Government’s general position is to try to reduce the Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, we have burden of guidance from the centre. However, listening had a very good debate on this issue. If anyone was in to this debate, I recognise that it would be sensible to any doubt before we started about the complexities of allow the scope for some short, focused guidance to be children’s lives and the choices that confront them, issued to schools to support them in fulfilling their some of the examples that we have heard from around new duty. We are retaining the provision in Section 45A the Room will certainly have helped to open our eyes of the Education Act 1997 to require schools to have to just how difficult it is to be a child in school today, regard to statutory guidance issued in respect of the facing, as my noble friend rightly said, 85 years of new careers duty, and we will consider what guidance career choices that they have to make. People say—this might be helpful in advance of the new duty being is a well known statistic these days—that you can now commenced. face three different careers in your lifetime. It used to be that you went into one job and that was your job Transition is clearly an important point and was for life, but now people often change careers two or raised by a number of noble Lords. The Government three times during the course of their life. have set out their expectations of schools and local The choices for young people facing their life ahead authorities and have issued statutory guidance to the are complicated and require specialist knowledge. To latter under Section 68 of the Education and Skills give a quick example of that in terms of giving careers Act 2008. We are keen to encourage the exchange of advice, wearing one of my other hats, young people good practice between local authorities and will shortly who qualify with a degree in film studies think that be hosting, with the Local Government Association, a they are all going to go off to be film directors, but summit on shared good practice. Following that summit, fewer than 1 per cent of people with a degree in film we will set out clear milestones to help local authorities studies ever get a job in that sector. A statistic said that plan their own transition arrangements—a point raised about 34 per cent of those young people end up by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. working in the retail sector. All the factors that have We have also had important contributions about been mentioned today underline how important it is monitoring the impact of the Government’s proposals. that we get this right. We should ensure that we do that when making these The Minister has said that there will be a professional changes. My noble friend Lord Boswell will know that service. We understand that we may have a professional a post-legislative review will be conducted in three to service, but the people who are providing the actual five years following enactment. He suggested that we advice, online or face-to-face, would not have to be should do it in three years—I think we should aim to qualified under the Government’s scheme. Our point do it in three rather than five. The evidence of whether is that young people’s future lives are so important schools are succeeding will be demonstrated through that these people should have some sort of qualification. pupil achievement and, crucially, through the data on I underline that again. My noble friend Lord Layard progression to further learning or employment provided has not commented on this—I am sure that he does by the destinations measures that we plan to publish not like people constantly making reference to him as and that we are working up. being the happiness tsar—but if people at this age get GC 339 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 340 this wrong then it is not just about them making the Clause 27 : Careers guidance in schools in England wrong career choice; it has an effect on their health and their mental health. The consequences of their Amendments 86CZA to 86G not moved. making wrong choices are real and serious, and that underlines the need for people to be qualified before Clause 27 agreed. they are let loose on children in schools. At the heart of our dilemma here is that the Amendments 87 to 87B not moved. Government want to be enabling and we want to lay down duties on schools and rights for pupils. There is 6.15 pm not so much of a difference between us, though; the Government have already said that there are some Sitting suspended. duties on schools regarding what they will provide. The Bill says that there will be duties for the service to be independent, which I think we would all agree with; 6.26 pm to be based in schools, which I think is the right place to focus careers guidance; and to have a mix of academic Clause 28 : Repeal of diploma entitlement for 16 to 18 and vocational provision, and a number of voices year olds around the Committee have echoed the importance of both academic and vocational choices. Debate on whether Clause 28 should stand part of the Bill. All we are attempting to do is add a few more duties, and the principle that we have already established Baroness Wall of New Barnet: My Lords, I will is a way of going forward. Those duties include specifying speak to the debate on whether this clause should the frequency of the careers advice, looking at a wider stand part of the Bill on behalf of my noble friend age range at which children can access careers advice Lord Knight, who regrettably has been detained outside and the whole issue of people being professionally London. He sends his apologies. I shall be brief. First, qualified. We have established that there will be some I shall explain the background of diplomas from duties, and we want more. I hope that the Minister will the point of view of my personal experience with the see that we are not so far apart in all this. engineering diploma. No one would dispute that it has I am pleased that the Minister said that he will take been exceedingly successful. The drive for diplomas the issue of the age range away and look at it further. came from employers who, certainly in the engineering We look forward to hearing about the outcome of that industry, were keen to have the option that the diploma in more detail. I think that I understood him to say provided. When we talked about careers advice earlier, that he would be bringing forward some more short-notice we touched on the fact that teachers tend to steer guidance. Perhaps he could specify whether that will pupils down the academic rather than the vocational be available to us before Report, at least in draft form, route. The diploma provided an answer to that because so that we might know where we stand on that. it offered the option to go either way and cross over at various different stages. I like to feel that we are moving closer together on these issues, but there remains the issue of what happens My question is this: why do the Government feel in the transition. The noble Lord, Lord Boswell, said the need to repeal the entitlement to these diplomas? It that he was not convinced there was a crisis, but I hope would be disingenuous not to say that, so far as the that he has heard some of the voices around the table engineering diploma was concerned, we ran into some saying that it is perhaps more of a crisis than he might issues around what it might mean for other areas of have identified. Our understanding is that hundreds, if the curriculum, in particular for A-levels. However, not thousands, of people who currently have training employer demand overall—I think it is the right word qualifications in careers advice are being made redundant to use—was very encouraging, and certainly the sector around the country, so we are losing those skills and skills councils, which were heavily involved in the that expertise. It seems pretty strange to set up a new diplomas, approached them with great enthusiasm. structure that starts from scratch when everyone has Why are they being withdrawn when they were proving been scattered to the four winds, so to speak, with all to be hugely beneficial and provided one of the answers the knowledge and experience that they retained to the many questions raised in the debate on the beforehand. We need to look again at the transition provisions of Clause 27? and what else we can do to make it a smooth and well resourced one. Baroness Hughes of Stretford: I rise briefly to support We have had a good debate. We would welcome my noble friend. We have heard a lot from the Minister some further discussions on this, but in the mean time and his noble friend about burdens and requirements I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. on schools, but as I am sure he knows, the entitlement was not designed so that every school had to provide the whole range of diplomas. Within an area, however, Amendment 86A withdrawn. a young individual was able to access all of them. I am looking at this from the other end of the kaleidoscope, Amendment 86AA not moved. if you like; it was not a burden on schools but an entitlement for a young person. They could study for a Amendments 86B and 86C not moved. diploma somewhere accessible in their local area. Therefore I agree with my noble friend that it seems perverse and Clause 26 agreed. unnecessary of the Government to repeal this entitlement. GC 341 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 342

[BARONESS HUGHES OF STRETFORD] Following Professor Wolf’s review of vocational If there is a genuine urge to achieve parity of esteem education, we are embarking on a substantial programme between vocational courses and academic subjects, it of reforms. We have already confirmed that some is hard to understand why this clause has been included valued vocational qualifications will be funded for in the Bill in the light of everyone’s desire to achieve teaching in September 2011. We have announced that parity. industry professionals and FE lecturers will be allowed to teach in schools. We have clarified that schools and colleges are free to offer any vocational qualification Baroness Garden of Frognal: Clause 28 is the first of offered by a regulated awarding organisation. By removing two clauses related to the diploma entitlement. This the diploma entitlement, we are ensuring that schools clause removes the duty on local authorities in England and colleges are free to consider which qualifications— to secure the diploma entitlement for 16 to 18 year-olds. academic or vocational—meet the real needs of their The provisions being amended are not yet in force. students, enabling them to progress into further study High-quality vocational education, just as much as or a job. I repeat: this clause does not remove any academic education, is crucial to improving England’s diplomas or other vocational option for young people. educational performance. In that, I am in total agreement It removes a bureaucratic and burdensome requirement with the noble Baronesses, Lady Wall and Lady Hughes. on local authorities, schools and colleges. That is why my right honourable friend the Secretary of State asked Professor Alison Wolf to carry out her review of vocational qualifications. Professor Wolf Baroness Wall of New Barnet: I thank the Minister published her report on 3 March. In it, she found for her response, and some of the things which she has some areas of great strength. Places on the best shared with us are really quite encouraging. Nevertheless, apprenticeships, such as those provided by Network I think a concern remains that the opportunity will be Rail or Rolls-Royce, are highly regarded by employers removed if it is not widespread. Regarding the comments and more oversubscribed than the most desirable course of Professor Wolf, she made those at the very early at the best university. There are excellent qualifications stages. After looking at the evidence she has in fact available, providing clear routes for progression into since said that diplomas do provide opportunities for full-time employment or further study in higher education. young people to take either the academic or vocational However, these examples of excellence do not add up route without feeling discriminated against in any way, to an excellent system and are too often provided in and that they give equality of credence to each. spite of rather than because of the structures that Government have created. The diploma entitlement is Clause 28 agreed. one such example where a focus on structure and process has been taken too far. Clause 29 agreed. As I have said, the provisions being amended here are not yet in force. Were they to be implemented as originally intended, they would place a duty on every The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness local authority to secure access for 16 to 18 year-olds Pitkeathley): Regarding Amendment 88, I must tell to all 14 diploma subjects at all levels, regardless of your Lordships that if it is agreed to, I cannot call local needs or any other educational priorities. I reassure Amendment 98 for reasons of pre-emption. noble Lords that this clause does not remove diplomas or any of their constituent qualifications. Nor does it prevent providers of education to 16 to 18 year-olds Amendment 88 from offering diplomas if they so wish. I entirely agree Moved by Baroness Walmsley with the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, that the diploma 88: After Clause 29, insert the following new Clause— in engineering has been the outstanding success of this particular qualification. We cannot say the same about “Personal, social, health and economic education in maintained schools the rest of the range of diplomas that were on offer. (1) In section 84 of EA 2002 (curriculum requirement for first, The Government believe that schools and colleges second and third key stages), in subsection (3), at the end insert “, should not be obliged to offer every diploma. They and should be free to decide which qualifications to teach, (i) personal, social, health and economic education.” according to the needs and aspirations of their students. (2) In section 85 of EA 2002 (curriculum requirements for the Indeed, the Association of Colleges has said that it fourth key stage), in subsection (4), at the end insert “, and has always been uncertain about the diploma entitlement (d) personal, social, health and economic education.” and that it has, (3) In section 74(1) of EIA 2006 (curriculum requirements for “always wanted greater freedom for colleges to offer courses and the fourth key stage) in subsection (4) of the new section 85 to EA qualifications which best meet the needs of young people”. 2002, at the end insert “, and The Association of School and College Leaders has (d) personal, social, health and economic education.” welcomed the removal of the diploma entitlement, (4) Before section 86 of EA 2002 (power to alter or remove saying that, requirements for fourth key stage) insert— “it was not practical to offer all lines to all students”. “85B Personal, social, health and economic education Edge, which has done so much to promote vocational (1) For the purposes of this Part, personal, social, health and education, has said that, economic education (“PSHE”) shall comprise— “it was always going to be difficult to deliver the entitlement, (a) education about alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, especially in rural areas”. (b) education about emotional health and well-being, GC 343 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 344

(c) sex and relationships education, These amendments make PSHE part of the foundation (d) education about nutrition and physical activity, curriculum in all schools receiving funding from the (e) education about personal finance, state, including the rapidly increasing number of (f) education about individual safety, and academies, for children throughout the age range. The courses must adhere to certain important principles; (g) careers, business and economic education. that is, the information must be accurate and balanced, (2) The Secretary of State may by order amend subsection (1). appropriate to the age, religion and cultural background (3) The National Curriculum for England is not required to specify attainment targets or assessment arrangements for PSHE of the children, promote equality, accept diversity and (and section 84(1) has effect accordingly). emphasise the importance of rights and responsibilities. (4) It is the duty of the governing body and head teacher of Who could argue with that? These matters can be any school in which PSHE is provided in pursuance of this Part taught in a way that reflects the school’s religious to secure that the principles set out in subsections (5) to (7) are character. Guidance will secure that children learn complied with. about the nature of various adult relationships and (5) The first principle is that information presented in the their role in the bringing up of children, where we course of providing PSHE should be accurate and balanced. know that stable relationships are important. (6) The second principle is that PSHE should be taught in a way that— In these amendments I have made two changes from the original, which I hope will have the effect of (a) is appropriate to the ages of the pupils concerned and to their religious and cultural backgrounds, and attracting wider support for the measure in this revised form. I have removed the clause that would have (b) reflects a reasonable range of religious, cultural and other perspectives. removed the parent’s right to withdraw their child. (7) The third principle is that PSHE should be taught in a way Frankly, not many parents use it and I do not see why that— that should get in the way of the majority of children (a) endeavours to promote equality, getting better PSHE education. The other thing I have done is to take four elements of the curriculum and (b) encourages acceptance of diversity, and make them voluntary for children at Key Stage 1. (c) emphasises the importance of both rights and They are drugs, alcohol and tobacco education, sex responsibilities. and relationship education, personal finance education (8) Subsections (4) to (7) are not to be read as preventing the governing body or head teacher of a school within subsection (9) and careers and business education. Many schools will from causing or allowing PSHE to be taught in a way that reflects feel they want to include these elements, in an age- the school’s religious character. appropriate way, for younger children, and they are (9) A school is within this subsection if it is designated as a free to do that. However, I feel we can leave that to school having a religious character by an order made by the their judgment. Secretary of State under section 69(3) of the School Standards The reason I wish to make PSHE compulsory in all and Framework Act 1998 (duty to secure due provision of religious education). schools is to ensure that all children receive it and to (10) This section is not to be read as requiring the PSHE give parents more confidence in it by improving the curriculum for pupils in the first key stage to include paragraphs quality of delivery. This would be done by improving (a), (c), (e) and (g) of subsection (1). teacher training, assessment and inspection if the subject (11) In exercising their functions under this Part so far as was taken more seriously by schools and by Ofsted. relating to PSHE, a local authority, governing body or head Many children tell us that the quality of the PSHE teacher shall have regard to any guidance issued from time to time they receive is poor and that it does not equip them for by the Secretary of State.” their future lives. A survey of 800 young people carried out by the National Children’s Bureau found that Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I rise to move nearly half felt they had not learnt all they needed to Amendment 88 and to speak to Amendments 89 and know about HIV. This can be life saving knowledge 90 in my name. They are copied, with some small and must be taught in a social context, not just teaching changes, from three clauses in the Children Schools the bare scientific facts in a biology lesson. I understand and Families Bill 2010, which were dropped from the that the report on this matter by the committee of the Bill before it became an Act. As I said when the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, on this matter, to be published deletion was debated on the 7 April 2010, these clauses shortly, will strongly support my position on this. would have, I strongly believe that the job of schools is to help “given children the high quality PSHE for which they have long young people become life-ready, not just job-ready or asked, which they deserve and to which they have a right under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child”.—[Official higher education-ready. Children may not go on to get Report, 7/4/10; col. 1578.] first-class degrees but they will all have families, Noble Lords may recall the great distress of many relationships, friends, personal finances, responsibility of us when these provisions were dropped. They had for their own health and safety, personal money and been well thought out, had been consulted upon widely jobs. Good PSHE supports all these things. Just as and had broad support. After they had been deleted importantly, PSHE also supports academic learning from the Bill, a number of organisations, including the and develops the capabilities that young people need Youth Parliament, signed a statement making it clear to flourish in life and in work. Once they leave school, that they would not give up the fight. Many of your no one else will do this, so it is vital. Lordships, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Gould There are other reasons. Children, young people and Lady Massey, vowed to do the same on behalf of and their parents want PSHE; many surveys have young people. This is not a party matter. It is a matter shown that. It promotes their health, well-being and of strong principle and belief and I approach it in that personal safety. Goodness knows, they live in a world spirit. where safety is often threatened and there are many GC 345 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 346

[BARONESS WALMSLEY] We know that young people want PSHE on the threats to good health. PSHE also helps the school to curriculum and that parents support it. Only something promote the social, moral, cultural and spiritual like 0.2 per cent of parents ever withdraw their children development of its pupils and links up well with RE, from anything related to it. We know from surveys as well as with arts and cultural education. that many young people learn about, for example— I see that the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, tries to achieve much the The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I am sorry, same thing, and I congratulate her on her tenacity in my Lords, there is a Division in the Chamber. this regard. The amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, also has merit but the matters about Baroness Massey of Darwen: Do I have to start which she is concerned could easily be taught in the again then? health part of PSHE. The White Paper that preceded the Bill recognised that children can benefit enormously from high-quality The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I leave that PSHE. That was a most welcome statement. Since up to the noble Baroness. then, the Government have announced an independent review of the curriculum where PSHE is not included 6.45 pm in the remit of the expert panel. I would like to ask the Minister how the Secretary of State would respond if Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. the expert panel reported that they felt that PSHE should be part of the national curriculum. Would he 6.56 pm accept its recommendation? It is a widely held view The Deputy Chairman of Committees: Before we among teachers that all children should receive this continue, we have been given notice that some noble education, and many members of the expert panel are Lords are having difficulty in hearing the proceedings. teachers. It seems that a mobile phone is interfering not only At the same time, the Government have announced with the loop in here but also with other equipment. I an internal review of PSHE—or at least I believe they would ask noble Lords not just to put their mobile will soon. Why have these two reviews been separated? phones on silent, but to turn them off. Thank you. Have decisions already been made about the fate of We shall resume with the noble Baroness, Lady PSHE? In the light of the enormous body of opinion Massey, on Amendment 88. that PSHE is a vital element of the education of every child, why have the Government not seen fit to include it in the remit of their independent advisers? When the Baroness Massey of Darwen: I will refrain from internal review concludes, as it most certainly will, testing noble Lords on what I said before the Division. that the quality of PSHE is terribly patchy and many I was merely agreeing with my noble friend—she is my children are being let down, what do the Government friend, but not in that sense—the noble Baroness, plan to do about it? Will they grasp the nettle and put Lady Walmsley, in her amendments. I will say simply this subject where it belongs, in the core compulsory that parents and pupils support PSHE and that it is part of the curriculum, and fulfil the right of every for the benefit of young people. child? I beg to move. Sometimes schools provide the only source of information for young people on these issues. Parents Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, I congratulate may feel that they cannot provide it and, indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, on her rowing welcome the fact that someone else is giving their exploits today—even though I understand that we children this information. There will be more on that lost—and on her speech, as well as on providing more in a minute. Times change and the world has become or less a whole PSHE syllabus in her amendment. I increasingly complex. Yearsago, who could have predicted agree that this is not a single-party, but an all-party, a pandemic on the scale of HIV infection? I salute issue and always has been. All parties have spoken on the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, on his courage and this, including from the Bishops’ Bench, with some determination in raising awareness of the issue—in support for her amendment. My Amendment 98, as the face of much opposition at the time—and on his the noble Baroness says, is fairly similar, but I want to continued support through his committee. I see that tweak it a bit. I will say why in a minute. awareness of HIV has now dropped and that young Like the noble Baroness, I ask the Minister yet people between the ages of 16 and 24 make up 12 per again about the details of the internal review. With the cent of all new diagnoses. That is worrying. delay of the review we are sending the message to We should also be concerned about other health teachers, parents and pupils that this is not important. issues such as teenage pregnancy, obesity, drugs, smoking, The review was announced eight months ago yet we alcohol use and so on. I have read that we are in still do not know what is happening with it. We ought danger of facing an obesity pandemic, largely due to to know. inappropriate diet. But these health issues are only We know enough about the subject area of PSHE part of the story. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, to be able to do a quick review of it. We should not be said, PSHE aims to foster good relationships with denying young people access to the information and friends, parents and others. It aims to increase self- skills that they need to be human beings and to have awareness and self-respect through an exploration of knowledge about their own bodies. Supported by values and aspirations. It is known that young people information and skills, they will learn about this. who have good relationships along with a strong set of GC 347 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 348 values and aspirations tend to be those who do not get amendment tabled by me and my noble friends Lord pregnant or take drugs, and have a more confident Knight and Lady Gould would not prevent faith body image. schools teaching SRE in ways that reflect their religious Teaching has come a long way. I will not regale the character, but it would guarantee pupils a right to Minister again with the full story of my own sex teaching about all aspects of PSHE. education when we—the girls, that is—had to knit a To return to Roman Catholic nuns, I have talked to uterus. I would say only that it put me off knitting. I many of them on courses. They say, “We can be very remember— clear about our boundaries in what we teach in personal, social and health education. It does not mean that we Lord Hill of Oareford: I hope the noble Baroness cannot talk about contraception, abortion, homosexuality will forgive me. I just wanted to say that the noble and what they mean. It means that we must give the Baroness did tell me the story about the knitted uterus perspective of our faith on those issues”. How sensible. when we completed the Academies Bill. The Bill team That is all I am looking for. then kindly presented me with a knitted uterus in We all have a particular perspective on all sorts of honour of the noble Baroness. issues. We can make that perspective clear to young people. However, they should be given full and 7pm comprehensive education. I am a humanist, but I believe that young people should be taught about Baroness Massey of Darwen: It was not as good as different faiths and cultures. Otherwise, we are in the mine. I remember a story told by a very humorous dangerous territory of indoctrination—a word disliked Roman Catholic nun. She was on a health education by my noble friend Lord McAvoy. Indoctrination is course with me some years ago. She said that she had not education. Education seeks to bring out the best in been told to say that a girl should, when she danced young people. with a boy, have the width of a telephone directory I say to the Minister: please say yes to the principle between them and that, if she got into difficulty, she of having PSHE as a statutory right for all pupils of should yell, “Stop it! I am a young Ursuline”. Incidentally, whatever age or faith. Let us get the appropriate some excellent PSHE education takes place in Catholic curriculum and teaching sorted out. schools, to which I shall come in a minute. So I say yes to the amendments, but I want some modification. The notion of what I call the spiral Lord McAvoy: Can my noble friend give us a definition curriculum gets lost in the amendments. By spiral of what she considers to be education and what she curriculum, I mean teaching an issue very simply considers to be indoctrination? when a child is young and going into more detail as the child matures. Young children are able to grasp Baroness Massey of Darwen: I certainly can. If the what foods are good for them and which are not noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, were here, she would without going into detail of nutritional bases and give the example of a particular school where they chemical formulae. Young children can explore the learned the Koran for about 80 per cent of the curriculum, notion of friendships and good, respectful relationships and very little else. I think that is indoctrination. without details of sex—they would not grasp them Education should consider all aspects of a particular anyway, and that would be inappropriate teaching. faith, of other faiths, of personal, social and health I remember the story of a little boy asking his education, without restriction. Trying to persuade young mother where he came from. She thought, “Right, this people to adhere to a particular thing, which they may is the teaching moment”, and went into stories about not be ready to adhere to anyway, may influence them daddy’s seeds and mummy’s seeds meeting. After a in unfortunate ways. while, the little boy said, “Yes, but did I come from Birmingham or Luton?”. When I was teaching my two Lord McAvoy: I am grateful to my noble friend for year-old grandson to play cricket, I did not toss a that clarification. I am sure she is fed up with me, but Michael Holding fast ball at him first thing: they were perhaps I could test her patience further. She considers gentle lobs. Then they got faster. My point is that I indoctrination to be a set percentage of the curriculum would not exclude any stage of education from certain by a Catholic school, for instance. Does she not accept teaching; I would make the teaching suitable to the that parents choose to send their children to Catholic child and then build on what had been learnt. That is schools or a particular faith school? I cannot grasp why a curriculum of PSHE is necessary—just like in why people making legislation should restrict people’s maths or English—which builds on knowledge and choices. People are not dragged into these faith schools. skills that children learn gradually. People choose to send their children to these faith The other area where I have some difficulty with the schools. amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, is in paragraphs (7) to (11) concerning faith schools and Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, with all SRE. Although faith schools will still be required to due respect, I think my noble friend is misunderstanding teach SRE, they are exempted from teaching it in a me. I am not saying that parents should not send their balanced way which promotes equity and diversity. children to the school of their choice. All I am saying The amendment would give faith schools the right to is that, as a parent, I would not wish my child to have allow the tenets of religion to override the principles his or her education limited to a particular doctrine or that must guide the teaching of SRE in other maintained creed or particular way of teaching or particular aspects schools. That could lead to narrower teaching. The of teaching. I would want my child to have a very GC 349 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 350

[BARONESS MASSEY OF DARWEN] a part of the PSHE curriculum that has been outlined broad education. Earlier I gave the example of a in the amendment and was rigorously evaluated in Roman Catholic school where the nuns say they will comparison with a control group. From the so-called teach in a broad sense but within the ethos of their meta-analysis, one obtains the average effect of all own faith. That is fine by me. these programmes on the well-being of the pupils and their academic achievements. Here is the effect on Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I support the emotional well-being and balance of the child: the wholeheartedly what my noble friend Lady Massey average programme lifted the average child by 11 percentile has just said, particularly in relation to children learning points—11 places in the ranking in which children are about different faiths and so on and that being part of ranked from 0 to 100—and that represents a substantial general education. Amendment 85B is very good and effect. Guess what the effect on academic performance extremely well intentioned. The only problem I have is was. It was also 11 percentile points. So it is not a with its wording. Subsection (7) outlines the principles question of either life skills or academic attainment, it of PSHE, which of course are absolutely admirable, is both. If noble Lords are interested in these programmes, that it “endeavours to promote equality”, of course; information on them can be found on a wonderful “encourages acceptance of diversity”, of course; and, website, casel.org. The other point that emerges from these surveys is that the better of the 207 programmes “emphasises the importance of both rights and responsibilities”. have much larger effects. Of course we all agree with that; it is absolutely right. However, subsection (8) says: The future of PSHE, particularly in secondary schools, has to involve a much greater use of such “Subsections (4) to (7) are not to be read as preventing the programmes because it is an extraordinarily difficult governing body or head teacher of a school within subsection (9)”— subject to teach. We have not talked about that very that is, schools with a religious character, much but most people, if thrown in at the deep end, “from causing or allowing PSHE to be taught in a way that would have a lot of difficulty in teaching most of these reflects the school’s religious character”. subjects. We need much more serious teacher training That gives me a problem because subsection (7) in these areas and much better materials. There is could lead us into difficulty when it says, “endeavours some progress in this country in this area, but very to promote equality”. We are all aware that there are little. To achieve progress in the quality of the teaching, religions that, if you look at their precepts, are in these subjects must be firmly established in the curriculum. dispute with the equality law that we have, and we That is what these amendments are about. I welcome want all citizens of this country to accept the rights them and hope that the Government will take them that the equality law gives them. That sort of wording seriously. might lead us into some difficulty. I do not have the same problem with Amendment 98, Baroness Tyler of Enfield: My Lords, I should like which has just been spoken to by my noble friend to speak in support of these amendments and to talk Lady Massey. Frankly, I would prefer that wording briefly about the critical importance of relationship and that amendment to the wording in the amendment education within the PSHE curriculum and its links to that is presently before us. However, I support the pupils’ wider emotional health and well-being, which feeling behind both amendments, I think that it is we have just heard about. Before doing so, I should right, and I congratulate both noble Baronesses for declare an interest as chief executive of the charity their commitment to these ideas, which I wholeheartedly Relate, which delivers relationship education to children support. in all four key stages in about 50 primary and secondary schools across the country. Lord Layard: My Lords, I congratulate the proposers I often feel that I am on a personal mission to try to of these amendments because they deal with one of change the terminology in this debate to “relationships” the central purposes of education. In surveys, when —in capitals—and sex education, rather than the other parents are asked what they most want for their children way around, which very much puts the cart before the in school, they say they most want children to be horse in a rather unhelpful way. That is because when happy and to learn how to live. Secondly, they say they sex education and relationships education are coupled want them to learn their subjects. The tragic situation together in that order, the debate too often gets bogged is that many people, including some senior politicians, down and polarised, and focuses almost solely on think that these two objectives are in contradiction to parents’ right to withdraw their children from sex and competition with each other. Of course, the opposite education. We should be focusing on children’s emotional is true. These objectives are mutually reinforcing and health and well-being. this is really the essence of the point that needs to be Relationships education, when delivered appropriately made today. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, by experts in the field—classroom teachers are the referred to it and I want to give you a bit of evidence first to admit that this is not often their specialism and that by the teaching of PSHE we serve two objectives: can feel uncomfortable in this role—has many benefits, teaching children how to manage their lives but also not least when it focuses on the quality of relationships enabling them, through being happier and more balanced, whereby young people learn how to distinguish a good to learn their subjects better. relationship from a bad one. This is crucial because, Here is one piece of interesting evidence. Some 207 sadly, too many children see few examples of good programmes in imparting life skills that were developed relationships in their home life and, without help, are mainly in the United States were surveyed in terms of likely to repeat these patterns in their own relationships. their effects on young people. Each programme covered It is also critical that young people understand, for GC 351 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 352 example, how to manage conflict and cope with family First, though, I shall address a small point just breakdown, how to recognise and understand abusive raised about relationships. In new Section 85B(1)(b), behaviour in relationships and what they need to do to perhaps we should also insert, “bereavement reactions seek help in those situations. in grief and loss”. There are some fantastic programmes As we have heard today, survey evidence shows that that help children prepare for the inevitability of young people want opportunities to discuss things experiencing bereavement, grief and loss, which are that feel relevant to their lives, like their emotions, tailored for different ages. We know that by the time relationships and their sex lives or sexual health. In children leave school, 10 per cent of them are going to addition, research from the Sex Education Forum be seriously bereaved, but we are just ignoring that showed that 84 per cent of parents see both school and when we talk about other aspects of development. home as the main source of sex and relationships Those children do very badly if they do not understand education and that both should be involved. To me, their emotions. this is the nub of the matter. With regard to school or My amendment is focused on community resuscitation. the home it is never a question of either/or but very In the UK we have over 30,000 out-of-hospital cardiac much both/and. arrests a year, and currently fewer than 10 per cent of victims survive to leave hospital. That means that we 7.15 pm have 27,000 sudden deaths in the community. To put I wish I had time to tell the Committee about the that in perspective, about 12,000 women a year die of various projects that we are involved with across the breast cancer, 3,000 people die on the roads and 270 country, working with boys, girls, teachers and parents, people die from knife crime. The number of sudden trying to provide high quality information about both cardiac arrest deaths out there is huge. It takes around relationships and sex. We are helping to support young five to 10 minutes for an emergency ambulance to people in making important personal choices within a reach someone and for every minute that passes in framework that emphasises their values. At the end of cardiac arrest the chance of successful defibrillation these projects, the feedback that we get from young decreases by 10 per cent, so time is of the essence. people is often that they feel much more confident and Immediately administrated cardiopulmonary resuscitation, less embarrassed talking about relationships and sex. which I am now going to call CPR because it is much We also get positive feedback from parents and teachers. shorter, will prolong the time that the patient remains There are wider reasons for supporting the universal shockable and therefore can be put back into a normal teaching of relationships education in schools, which rhythm. It increases the chance of survival by a factor is related to the duty on schools to promote children’s of around three. If there is a defibrillator nearby, well-being, and I am delighted to see that that remains survival rates of up to 50 per cent from a baseline of firmly in place. As we have heard, there is a growing under 10 per cent have been reported. body of evidence that good emotional well-being is Other parts of the world have already addressed strongly associated with good educational attainment this. It is part of the curriculum in Norway, Denmark and improved employment prospects; indeed, there is and France. The American Heart Association has some evidence that it can increase earnings potential. advised that no pupil should graduate from secondary The reverse is true as well. From our work at Relate school without being proficient in CPR, not just learning providing one-to-one counselling to around 15,000 it. In Seattle, schools have taught CPR in PE lessons children in some 650 schools across the country, we for over 30 years, so now half of the population of see at first hand how problems with relationships at Seattle and the surrounding area are trained. In 2009 home mean that children are often unable to learn. the survival rate for witnessed cardiac arrests was We have not heard much in today’s debate about 46 per cent, while ours is under 10 per cent. The teenage pregnancy rates. Although they are slowly difference is dramatic. declining, we still have the highest rates in Europe—a matter of profound concern to us all. I remind the Here in the UK, the British Heart Foundation has committee that the final report of the Teenage Pregnancy put Heartstart into over 2,700 schools, 700 of which Independent Advisory Group warned that teenage are secondary schools or colleges. It trains thousands pregnancy will rise again unless there is better provision of children every year. British Red Cross and St John of sex and relationships education. It put a particular Ambulance also run training schemes, but the trouble emphasis on giving young people the knowledge and is that the provision is patchy. There are 3.6 million life skills to resist peer, partner and media pressures, children in secondary education in England, but only and that is very important. My lasting memory in this around 14 per cent have any training in CPR provided area is of talking to one of our expert trainers delivering by one of these organisations. It is estimated that sex and relationships education to young people in around 3 million secondary school pupils are not school who told me, and I quote this word for word: trained, even though the voluntary organisations are “The problem is that they know everything about sex and very ready to offer this training. By contrast, a poll nothing about relationships”. taken by the British Heart Foundation at the beginning of this year found that 86 per cent of teachers, 70 per We have a chance through this amendment to ensure cent of parents and 78 per cent of children want to be that all young people learn about the importance of trained. There is no resistance anywhere; it is a question relationships now and in the future. of making the link. The campaign has wide medical, nursing and teaching support, as well as from the Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I shall charities that deal with bereavement following cardiac speak to my amendment in this group. death. GC 353 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 354

[BARONESS FINLAY OF LLANDAFF] time. These children are subject to relationship breakdown Training and support for teachers would enable or find themselves in care. They do not get this kind of them to deliver emergency life support. Currently, the education in their homes. People will try and give it in British Heart Foundation spends around £800,000 a residential care—foster carers will give it—but they year on teaching resources, including mannequins, will have interrupted relationships and care. They will school packs, teacher supply cover and so on. It is not have that kind of secure relationship and estimated that it will be necessary to increase the understanding that many other children will have. It is provision of community resuscitation development for this group of children that I plead. They are officers, who are linked with the 12 ambulance trusts children who are in conflict. in England, by around five people to ensure that every As the chair of the Children and Family Court child in every school is taught. With additional resources, Advisory and Support Service, I work with a young the models could be successfully applied across all people’s board. I do not give many anecdotes when schools. There are over 3,000 local authority maintained speaking in Committee but those children often talk secondary schools in England. The amendment aims about teachers in school giving them some of the to amend Section 84 of the Education Act 2002 so elements that help them hold themselves together through that this training becomes a community requirement extraordinarily conflicted experiences in their homes. at the first, second and third key stages. Teachers are at this moment attempting to give this I know that the Government can be much more kind of education. It needs space, skill and structure. I prescriptive with the curriculum for maintained schools cannot understand why we are at this point in the and I hope that they might consider adopting this debate because this is what the Government want training because that will influence the academies to as well. take it up. However, I am well aware that the Government cannot be prescriptive for academies. Sadly, this is not Baroness O’Cathain: I support the Education Bill part of PSHE at the moment. First aid training in the and particularly the determination to have a slimmed- curriculum covers some parts of emergency life support down national curriculum. In the fascinating debate but not emergency CPR, which is what can save lives. on Monday, the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland of We could go from 27,000 sudden deaths in the community Houndwood, was right to advocate, to approximately half that number if we spent a few “a balanced education with a minimum core”,—[Official Report, hours on training all children in CPR. It has been 11/7/11; col. GC 224.] estimated that the training takes only around four which allows room for the professionalism of teachers. hours. It would mean that when they come across I strongly approach that approach. someone who has collapsed and is effectively dead on In the same debate on Amendment 83, the noble the street, they will know what to do. Lord, Lord Knight, who unfortunately is not in his place and we know why, expressed the wish that children Lord Elton: My Lords, I know that there are quite a would get up in the morning wanting to go to school. number of people who, like me, should declare an The aim should be good teaching on core subjects that interest in this, having been identified as a potential encourages all pupils to feel involved and indeed excited victim. I shall just tell my noble friend that he will have by a love of learning and increasing their knowledge. to argue very strongly against this amendment to stop Maths would even bring alive the dreary subject of me supporting it at a later stage. economics—I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is no longer with us. History could be expanded Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, I do to show how social structures evolve, informing pupils not have an amendment and I do not have a speech, on how to react to differing situations. What better but I have a question: how do we come to be where we way to develop good communication skills than to are in this debate at all? The Government have made it learn lessons from the best communicators of the past absolutely clear that they have an agenda about well-being, by studying works of the great poets, authors and particularly about well-being for children. They have orators? also made it clear that, when findings show that children However, Amendments 88, 89, 90 and 98 would in our country are less happy than in other parts of take us in a completely different direction. As we have Europe, they want to do something about improving heard, their effect would be to expand the curriculum that position. They, like the previous Government, to introduce statutory personal, social, health and have also undertaken that elements of PSHE are very economic education for all maintained schools. As we important in the curriculum. With due humility, the have already heard this evening from the noble Lord, Minister might do well to go away with those people Lord Layard, PSHE is extremely difficult to teach. who have long lists of amendments and talk them Now we have a situation: how can we have a slimmed- through. I do not think that the noble Baronesses, down curriculum and yet put in it more and more Lady Walmsley and Lady Massey, are likely to give up. issues that are extremely difficult to teach? We will get somewhere that way. Many of the arguments I would have made have Baroness Massey of Darwen: PSHE is a subject now already have been made but I intervened to put which, given the ethos and support for it in school, can one argument particularly for a group of children run across all subjects in the curriculum. That is the who, without this education, will not have any benefit focus for it. The noble Baroness is of course perfectly in these areas—that is, very poor and vulnerable children right about communication. However, it needs a core, who come from some of the deepest, darkest estates in even if it is a small one, of personal social and health our country and with whom I spend quite a lot of education so that that core can expand into other GC 355 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 356 subjects and be beneficial for the child. There is no of the required curriculum, as I am bound to say in denying that if we want good academic results in our talking about these amendments. None the less, I schools we have to give a focus to relationships education accept that PSHE is a very important part of education and young people feeling comfortable with themselves for many young people and that it will continue in and their own learning abilities. schools, and rightly so. However, it seems that we are trying to impose the shape of education through 7.30 pm legislation, whereas the shape of education is a matter of balance and balance is never formulated in a set of Baroness O’Cathain: I am grateful for that intervention clauses in a Bill. The real issue is how well this is done and the noble Baroness is absolutely right that all of and whether a balance of attitude is preserved. This that can be taught through the other ways. However, applies to PSHE and to the teaching of religion and why are we going to duplicate and have a special core about other faiths in faith schools. subject called personal, social and health education as well as insisting that it is part of the maths curriculum, I have reservations. First, I do not think that we do the English curriculum, the history curriculum and PSHE very well. We have already had mention of the whatever? fact that teenage pregnancy numbers may be falling but we are still the worst in Europe. STD admissions My greatest objection is to Amendment 98. If agreed, are rising among young people. Whatever we are doing, Amendment 98 would extend sex education to all and we have done a lot more of it the last two years, children from five years of age upwards. I find this we are not doing it well. I am not sure that legislating deeply concerning and even abhorrent. Many of us in this way will change that. Secondly, it is very much a were very thankful that the previous Government ran delicate balance. Thirdly, one of the ways in which you out of time for similar plans before last year’s election. try to deal with delicate balances in schools is by Among other measures, detailed sex education lessons having an adequate inspection system. I am not saying for children as young as five were proposed. that the one we have is good enough yet, but if there were an adequate inspection system one of the things Baroness Massey of Darwen: I am sorry to interrupt it would ask is, “Is the balance of sex education in this the noble Baroness again. The noble Baroness, Lady school, in this community and in this culture right?”. Walmsley, is saying they were not and I will leave her That is what you would expect from a good school to deal with that. What I would like to say—and I did inspection. It looks as if, in this Bill, many schools will say earlier—is that the curriculum should be appropriate be exempted from that kind of inspection and that is to the age and stage of the child. I gave the example of where I see the gap. I would be reassured about all this not lobbing cricket balls fast at my two year-old grandson, being written down in an Act if there were some way but to start slowly. I should not mention the press but of ensuring that it were well done in schools. It is a this popular newspaper thing about sex education at delicate issue. How this is taught varies from one five is quite inaccurate. Teachers do not do this. Teachers school and one community to the next and that can talk about relationships and friendships at five, they only be properly assessed by trained and qualified do not talk about HIV/AIDS and all the rest of that. inspectors. It is simply not true. Lord Lucas: My Lords, I entirely agree what with Baroness O’Cathain: That is a marvellous statement the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, just said. I would that is simply not true, because it is actually said that have said it myself if I could have said it as well. It is you want to repeal the statutory requirement that sex crucial that children learn these things at school. It is education is not taught between the ages of five and daffy to prescribe that individual items should be seven. This amendment would repeal that statutory learnt. One should look at the outcome. The only requirement. In other words, if you are saying that you sensible way of looking at the outcome is inspection. want sex education for five to seven year-olds to stay This Bill is setting out to destroy that aspect of inspection exactly as it is, I have no problem. rather than building on it, so I am entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, in my concerns. The Baroness Whitaker: I support Amendment 98, in only other thing I would like to say is that this is a particular new subsections (6) and (7). We live in a great subject to be debating in this room, under a nation of many cultures and several faiths. I declare an picture of a PSHE lesson. interest as a vice president of the British Humanist Association. These many cultures and several faiths Baroness Howe of Idlicote: This whole business of are a huge asset for our culture, understanding of the PSHE is almost written on one’s brain because the world, trade, regeneration and enterprise—lots of argument for it has come up again and again in all the things—but to realise these assets we need to be at ease education Bills. Relationships are so crucial in everything with our fellow citizens, to understand their culture that we do. I am very much of the view that it certainly and their faith, especially when we do not share it. If does not need to be prescribed and in the Bill. I go we do not have this opportunity in school, we risk along with the approach of my noble friend Lord losing out culturally and economically but, almost Sutherland on this. Nevertheless, the whole area is more importantly, we risk increasing bigotry and prejudice. crucially important. I wish the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, was here Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: I have been mentioned. because when the previous Government introduced I have not resiled from the position I took on Monday citizenship lessons, there was at last great hope that and I continue to have concerns about the overcrowding children would be introduced to the business of GC 357 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 358

[BARONESS HOWE OF IDLICOTE] or sexually related relationships. I rather agree with parenting—not just getting on and understanding their the right honourable gentleman down the corridor difficult relationships with their parents but actually that what is key to our society is how we hand on what a child needs: love, support and caring. That civilisation to the next generation. There is some wisdom never happened; it got shunted around to different in the observation in his report that children want lessons, if it ever took place at all. I would not at all more than anything else to learn to be good parents. mind having an inspection with that written into it: However, I do not see that coming through, and I how is it doing and is it increasing the happiness and certainly do not want to see this education reduced to the general well-being of our children? sex and relationships. Returning briefly to the business of teaching religion, and what was said just now, it is crucial for all of us to Lord McAvoy: My Lords, all the contributions have know about the different religions in the world—and reflected positive attitudes and have contained many none. It is essential that we accept and know and are positive words. The danger is that if someone like tolerant about this. One of the horrors in the rest of myself dissents from what I consider to be the main the world is that that form of tolerance does not exist. thrust of the amendment of my noble friend Lady So we must do whatever we can in that direction. Massey, they are portrayed as dinosaurs, male chauvinists However, I hope that in the process we are not going and all the litany of abusive terms that suggest to end up with ways that actually restrict the excellent discrimination against women. However, let me declare work that many of our religious schools are doing. I my credentials from when I served in another place am not thinking of these amendments but perhaps because they will totally contradict that kind of attitude some that will come subsequently. towards me. I voted for the equal age of consent. I voted for civil partnerships. Even when there was a Baroness Perry of Southwark: My Lords, in response free vote, I voted for every single equality measure. It to the query raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, was not a case of being whipped to vote for something about inspections, as I understand it, Ofsted will continue because the Government said so. I hope that if that to conduct inspections in academies and other schools attitude has been inculcated, it will have been quickly as part of national surveys of particular aspects of dispelled by my record. Perhaps I would carry more education. I rise simply to say to our two Ministers credibility with my noble friend Lady Massey if she that surely the issue of PSHE would be top of the list took into account the fact that the Roman Catholic of priorities for Ofsted in terms of a national survey church attacked me for those votes, but as far as I am of what is actually happening. Its report would tell us concerned, it establishes my independence. what is really going on in our schools across the I would like to ask the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, country. to turn to page 6 of the Marshalled List, which sets out the proposed new section. Subsection (6) states: The Lord Bishop of Chester: My Lords, I should “The second principle is that PSHE should be taught in a way like to make three brief points. First, I join in the that”— general applause for the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, as outlined in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of the on the application of the law of diminishing returns in amendment. Subsection (7) also has three paragraphs. this area: the more you specify, the more you tend to However, I worry about the practicality of that. The lose. My second point may also relate to later debates. practicality is that new Section 85B(8) says, As far as possible in education, we should try to “Subsections (4) to (7) are not to be read as preventing the maintain one framework that covers all schools. There governing body or head teacher of a school within subsection (9) may be some adaptation in schools of different character, from causing or allowing PSHE to be taught in a way that reflects but it is in the spirit of our educational system to aim the school’s religious character”. for a framework that brings a Church of England Who decides? Who judges? Who makes a judgment if school, a Roman Catholic school, a Jewish school and someone objects to the way in which that has been a local authority maintained school under the same done at a school? umbrella. We are one society, and it is important to make that point in our education system. 7.45 pm Finally, and perhaps more significantly, I suppose that a Bishop would have to comment on sex and Baroness Walmsley: I think the answer is that a relationships, but sometimes I think that people get school does; and it would be held to account for that obsessed with this area. Generally, the debate has been by Ofsted and by individual parents. If individual skewed too much towards it. I also think that linking parents did not like what was going on, they would sex and relationships, while I understand entirely why retain the right to withdraw their child. Of course, in we do it—we do not want to disentangle sexual all the best schools parents are involved anyway in the relationships from relationships—we do not want to design of the curriculum covering sensitive issues like get into the way of thinking that all relationships are this. therefore fundamentally sexualised as an outcome. I read Frank Field’s report to the Government on children Lord McAvoy: I am delighted to hear the noble in our society, which is a serious issue. Surveys show Baroness say that she supports the rights of parents. If that one of the things that children most want to learn parents send their children to a particular school, she is how to be good parents. There is something of a will obviously support them in that, and she will also lacuna in these proposals in the area of what I would support them in ensuring that the ethos of that school call parenthood, quite apart from the issues of sexualised is maintained, especially one of a religious nature. GC 359 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 360

When it comes to the new section in Amendment 90, wide-ranging review that my noble friend Lord Knight the difficulty is that I maintain—I will no doubt conducted over a long period and which involved all encourage further contributions with this—that the the faith schools, other schools and lots of interested common threads of the amendments are designed to parties. It reached a remarkable consensus on the way minimise, damage and gradually remove the religious forward. Provisions similar to these amendments appeared element of faith schools. in our legislation. I should like to ask the Minister: given the progress that was made, what else could the Baroness Massey of Darwen: I am so sorry to review that this Government are now carrying out interrupt the noble Lord again but I think that he has possibly be looking at? Could they not move a little misunderstood a great deal of what I was saying. I am quicker to get these provisions into legislation, given not trying to damage the ethos of faith schools. I am that that work was already completed? saying that the ethos of faith schools may well exist but children have the right to know about other faiths. Baroness Benjamin: I totally agree with my noble I was talking today to a friend from Northern Ireland friend Lady Walmsley and I support her amendment who said, “Look at what damage has been done in and the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Northern Ireland by people not learning about other Massey. We need to teach our children to develop faiths”. I say no more. social and interpersonal skills and, most of all, to help them to understand what unconditional love is. We Lord McAvoy: That is the second time that my have talked about sex, relationships and family life, noble friend has accused me of misunderstanding her. but lots of children do not know what true unconditional I fully confess that I have a very limited formal education love is. They also need to develop a kind of strategy but I do not have limited intelligence, and it is my whereby they can think for themselves. Helping them responsibility to make a judgment that I see a thread to develop interpersonal and social skills will go a long in maybe one or two contributions from my noble way towards achieving that. That is what the amendment friend, seeing as how she has introduced this subject. is all about. It is my opinion that there is a common thread to the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and my noble friend that are designed to—I withdraw Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, I will not be quite the word “damage”—minimise or devalue the existence as brief as the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, but I and practice of faith schools. shall do my best. As she said, it has in many ways been an extremely interesting and engaging debate. At its Baroness Walmsley: I am sorry to interrupt the heart, apart from a few outliers, it boils down to a noble Lord again, but could he please be specific judgment that one has to reach as to whether the best about what it is in my amendments that seeks to way forward on addressing these important issues devalue faith schools? around PSHE, which we all agree need to be addressed, is through the statutory prescriptive route or through Lord McAvoy: I said there was a thread running a different approach by trying to slim down the statutory through the amendments. provisions and the national curriculum, and leaving more space and opportunity for more skill—words Baroness Garden of Frognal: I apologise for intervening used by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth—for teachers on the noble Lord, but we have a group coming later to give children and young people the support that that is all to do with faith and religious worship. I they need. Almost my first debates in this House just think the comments that he is making might possibly over a year ago were about PSHE and faith. Whoever be more appropriate when we come to the next group. said how tenacious my noble friend Lady Walmsley Given the lateness of the hour, we might perhaps let and the noble Baroness, Lady Massey—with whom I the Opposition and the Minister wind up this particular have had many discussions—have been on this subject debate, but focusing on PSHE rather than the broader was absolutely right. issues of faith. We know that in a recent report on the subject, Ofsted found that PSHE education was good or Lord McAvoy: Very briefly, in response to the Minister, outstanding in three-quarters of the schools visited I have not said much different from my noble friend and that pupils’ personal development was good in Lady Massey, so it seems to me a strange distinction most schools visited and was outstanding in about that she is making. But if it is the will of the Committee one-third of the schools. However, that same report that I shut up and sit down, tell me. It is? That is fine. also found that there were weaknesses, particularly around sex and relationships education, and in some Baroness Hughes of Stretford: I am not going to other areas that we need to find ways of addressing. sum up on what has been a wide-ranging debate; I just At heart, therefore, is a generally broad agreement on want to make a quick comment. First, I want to put the ends to which we are working but disagreement on record my support and that of my noble friend for about the means. the amendment on PSHE in the name of my noble The Government’s aim is to shrink the curriculum friend Lady Massey, and those in the name of the and to leave schools and teachers more time to decide noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. Secondly, I was for themselves what to teach—a point of view that disappointed that such provisions disappeared from received a fair amount of support from a number of our legislation in the wash-up before the general election, noble Lords. Teachers have said that they feel that because we were proceeding with this. Thirdly, these their professionalism is undermined by the overall amendments appeared in our legislation following a degree of prescription to which they have been subjected. GC 361 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 362

[LORD HILL OF OAREFORD] enable many more schools to get involved in things By stripping the curriculum back we want to give such as the British Heart Foundation’s Heartstart schools the space they need to offer a rounded education, programme. including of course PSHE. We know that there are many things—and my We know that PSHE covers a range of important noble friend Lady Walmsley spoke about them with areas and schools teach it in a variety of ways. It seems great experience and passion—that pupils need to to me right that schools should have the discretion to learn about and can benefit from. We heard from the teach it. They know their children. Different schools noble Lord, Lord Layard, who sadly is not in his have different circumstances, and different kinds of place, about the link between well-being and the ability children will need different support from their school. to learn. Of course that is true, but attempting to Ofsted has said that the most effective curriculum define those things from the centre, and be prescriptive model seen was one in which discrete, regularly taught about what schools must teach, removes teachers’ and PSHE lessons were supplemented with cross-curricular school leaders’ ability to use their professional judgment. activities. That point has also been raised. We are keen We had an interesting exchange about inspections. to see good practice being shared with the minority of Of course the new school inspection framework will schools that are not teaching the subject as well. Our cover the spiritual, moral, social and cultural development priority should be to support schools in their efforts to of pupils. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, do better by their pupils. That is why we are carrying was making a point echoed by my noble friend Lord out the internal review which we have heard about, Lucas about the frequency of inspection—we will which has two main objectives: to consider what should come on to talk about that under later groups. We will be taught; and to look at how schools can be supported also come back to discuss thematic reviews and the to improve the quality of all PSHE teaching. That risk assessment process, issues mentioned by my noble may be a new element, different from the work previously friend Lady Perry of Southwark. We know that the carried out by the noble Lord, Lord Knight. majority of schools already deliver good PSHE education, I completely understand the impatience of the noble which is not currently a statutory part of the curriculum. Baroness, Lady Massey, and my noble friend to hear I agree that we need to look at how the quality of from the Government when this fabled review will PSHE teaching can be improved and what its content heave into view. I have been saying for some time to should be; that is what our review will look into. I the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, that it will be soon know that I will disappoint my noble friend Lady or shortly; I think it is very soon or very shortly, and as Walmsley who has clear and strong views on this, but soon as we are there, I will of course circulate that to with these comments I ask her to withdraw her all Members of the Committee. amendments.

Baroness Massey of Darwen: Does the noble Lord 8pm mean that it will be finished soon, or that it will be Baroness Walmsley: I thank all noble Lords who started start soon? have taken part in the debate, especially my noble friend the Minister. He may have disappointed me, but Lord Hill of Oareford: I know that the noble Baroness he has not surprised me. Perhaps I may make a few is keen that the review should be as short as possible points to follow up on what noble Lords have said. and that she thinks that much of what it covers has First, I turn to the Minister’s response. The noble already been covered—we have had that discussion Lord, Lord Knight, achieved a very wide consensus, before. I hope that it will start soon, and then aim to and that is why I took the three clauses from the Bill conclude by the end of the year. that was lost before the general election. The reason I On the points made about sex and relationships took them as the basis for my amendments is the wide education, as part of our review we will determine consensus that they had achieved among people who how we can support schools to improve the quality of run schools of all faiths. I felt that those clauses struck their teaching in this area. As I mentioned, Ofsted’s the right balance. report on the matter says that sex education is one of My noble friend says that he does not want to be the weaker aspects of PSHE. This is perhaps a sign prescriptive about what should be taught. I do not that legislation of itself is not a necessarily a guarantee think that my amendments are prescriptive. They talk of good quality teaching, since that is the part that is about areas that should be taught, but they certainly statutory. do not set out programmes of work which, personally, On as emergency life support skills are concerned, I I think should be quite spare and leave a great deal to agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, that the discretion and professionalism of teachers. However, equipping young people to be able to step in where we are prescriptive in other subjects. Before long, lives are at stake is extremely important. I know that when the review of the national curriculum reaches its many schools, and organisations such as the British conclusions, there will be prescription about what Heart Foundation and St John Ambulance, do absolutely children should be taught in physics, English, geography brilliant work. My own wife is a trained first-aider, and all the rest. We are going to get that, so why not something which she needs for the work she does for PSHE, too, which is so fundamentally important? Riding for the Disabled; so I know how important it is. I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of That is one reason why we are so keen to review the Camden, that I understand where she is coming from national curriculum: so that the statutory content will in her comments but, as I have just said, these amendments take up less of the timetable, which in turn will came from her own Government’s Bill which, before GC 363 Education Bill[13 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 364 the general election, she supported. What we have to other subjects that we decide that they must learn—the do is get the balance right between the principles I core ones they must learn or the additional ones that have laid down in my amendments—I think most they may take. people would agree with them—and the rights of I understand where the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, parents to send their children to schools in the faith is coming from. I would not want to load the curriculum that they themselves uphold, and for those schools to with a lot of extra subjects, but he did make the point teach PSHE in the light of their own faith. I do not see that we do not do this very well. That is exactly why I anything wrong with that. would like to make PSHE statutory. People would I was quite disappointed that the noble Baroness, then train as specialists. As the noble Lord rightly Lady O’Cathain, could not support me. In order to said, without training, some of these areas are difficult address the issues that she and others of her opinion to teach. I myself was thrown in at the deep end—many expressed when we discussed this matter before the teachers are. I would certainly have benefited from general election, I made modifications to the clauses. I training but, if that were a statutory part of the absolutely deny that five year-olds are taught the national curriculum, Ofsted would have to inspect it at details of human sex. They are not. But it was in order every school level. to take account of some people’s fear that they might I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate the be taught in that way that I made that area and one or Bishop of Chester for raising the subject of parenthood. two other areas of the curriculum I am proposing As far as I am concerned, that would come into the voluntary. Schools can do this in an age-appropriate relationships and sex part of PSHE. Parents have way, as set out in the amendments, but if they do not relationships between each other and with their children. want to do it, they do not have to. It is particularly their relationship with their children that would be important there. I absolutely agree with Baroness O’Cathain: I thank the noble Baroness for the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and his passion giving way. The point I am making—I am finding it for getting young people taught some parenting skills. hard to speak because I am not very well—is that at That is very important. the moment there is legislation which states that sex Finally, on the voting record of the noble Lord, education cannot be provided for five to seven year-olds, Lord McAvoy, I am quite sure that he would want to but these amendments would repeal that. That is what support my amendments. I reassure him that what he I have been informed. If I am wrong, I apologise, but seeks would not be precluded by my three amendments that is the basis of my objection. in any way whatever.

Baroness Walmsley: I accept what the noble Baroness Lord McAvoy: I accept the noble Baroness’s point has heard, but it is not my understanding that that is of view. the case. However, I am sure that we can look at it outside the Committee. Baroness Walmsley: I am most grateful to the noble What I am really saying is that we want children to Lord. That is a good point on which to beg leave to be learning-ready. PSHE is not an extra subject that I withdraw the amendment. am trying to put into the curriculum. I agree absolutely with the Minister that we need to slim the curriculum Amendment 88 withdrawn. down. However, PSHE is not any old subject; it is a fundamental underpinning. None of us ladies would Lord Hill of Oareford: This may be a convenient go around without foundation garments because they point for the Committee to adjourn until Monday at make our fashions look better on the outside. It is 3.30 pm. really important that children have the skills and understanding that enable them to benefit from all the Committee adjourned at 8.06 pm.

WS 59 Written Statements[13 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 60 Written Statements 5th Battalion The Rifles Elements of 1 Regiment Army Air Corps Wednesday 13 July 2011 Elements of 3 Regiment Army Air Corps Elements of 4 Regiment Army Air Corps Afghanistan: Roulement Elements of 9 Regiment Army Air Corps Elements of Joint Helicopter Support Squadron Statement Elements of Allied Rapid Reaction Corps Support Battalion The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable 1 Logistic Support Regiment The Royal Logistic friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Liam Fox) Corps has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Elements of 6 Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps The next roulement of UK forces in Afghanistan is Elements of 7 Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps due to take place in October 2011. The UK’s current Elements of 8 Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps framework Brigade in Helmand, 3 Commando Brigade, Elements of 9 Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps will be replaced by 20th Armoured Brigade. The forces deploying include: Elements of 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps 20th Armoured Brigade Headquarters and Signal Squadron (200) Elements of 17 Port and Maritime Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 19th Light Brigade Headquarters and Signal Squadron (209) Elements of 23 Pioneer Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps Headquarters 101 Logistic Brigade Elements of 29 Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 845 Naval Air Squadron including members of the Maritime Reserve 1 Medical Regiment Elements of 846 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 201 Field Hospital (Volunteers) 857 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 208 Field Hospital (Volunteers) 1st The Queen’s Dragoon Guards 3 Close Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers The Queen’s Royal Hussars (The Queen’s Own and Royal Irish) Elements of 19 Light Brigade Combat Service Support Battalion Elements of 5th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 101 Force Support Battalion Royal th Elements of 16 Regiment Royal Artillery Electrical and Mechanical Engineers th Elements of 26 Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 104 Force Support Battalion Royal Elements of 39th Regiment Royal Artillery Electrical and Mechanical Engineers Elements of 40th Regiment Royal Artillery 110 Provost Company Royal Military Police Elements of 47th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 173 Provost Company Royal Military Elements of 25 Engineer Regiment Police 35 Engineer Regiment Elements of Special Investigation Branch United Elements of 38 Engineer Regiment Kingdom Elements of 71 Engineer Regiment (Volunteers) Elements of 1 Military Working Dogs Regiment Elements of 12 (Air Support) Engineer Group Elements of 1 Military Intelligence Brigade Elements of 170 (Infrastructure Support) Engineer Elements of 15 Psychological Operations Group Group Elements of 88 Postal and Courier Regiment Elements of 1st (United Kingdom) Armoured Division (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Headquarters and Signal Regiment Elements of 148 Expeditionary Force Institute Elements of 10th Signal Regiment Squadron (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 14th Signal Regiment (Electronic Warfare) Elements of 156 Transport Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 21st Signal Regiment (Air Support) Elements of 159 Supply Regiment (Volunteers), Elements of 22nd Signal Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps 3rd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland (The Elements of 162 Postal Courier and Movement Black Watch) Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps 1st Battalion The Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment (Queen’s and Royal Hampshires) Elements of 166 Supply Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps 1st Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Own) 602 Tactical Air Control Party 2nd Battalion The Mercian Regiment (Worcesters 603 Tactical Air Control Party and Foresters) 606 Tactical Air Control Party 2nd Battalion The Rifles 618 Tactical Air Control Party WS 61 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 62

Number 3 Royal Air Force, Force Protection Wing The Statistics of Scientific Procedures on Living Headquarters Animals—Great Britain—2010 (HC 1263), was laid Elements of Number 2 Royal Air Force Police before the House today. Copies will be available in the Wing Vote Office. Elements of Number 3 Royal Air Force Police This annual statistical report meets the requirement Wing in the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 to 2 Squadron, Royal Air Force Regiment inform Parliament about the licensed use of animals for experimental or other scientific purposes. It also Elements of 101 Squadron Royal Air Force forms the basis for meeting periodic reporting Elements of 39 Squadron Royal Air Force requirements at EU level. Supplementary information 31 Squadron, Royal Air Force with additional tables is also available on the Home IX(B) Squadron, Royal Air Force Office website. 2 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron, Royal Air Force The 2010 statistical report shows that the number Elements of 5 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron, of licensed procedures started in 2010 increased slightly Royal Air Force over 2009 to just over 3.7 million scientific procedures Elements of 18 Squadron, Royal Air Force and constituted a rise of 105,000 (3 per cent). This rise Elements of 24 Squadron, Royal Air Force follows a slight fall in the 2009 statistical report. A Elements of 27 Squadron, Royal Air Force number of factors, such as investment in research and development and strategic funding priorities, determine Elements of 28 Squadron, Royal Air Force the overall level of scientific procedures. Elements of 30 Squadron, Royal Air Force The Home Office, as regulatory authority under the Elements of 78 Squadron, Royal Air Force 1986 Act, ensures that its provisions are rigorously Elements of the Tactical Supply Wing, Royal Air applied and only authorises work that is scientifically Force justified and minimises the numbers of animals used Elements of 1 Air Mobility Wing, Royal Air Force and the animal suffering that may be caused. Elements of 1 Air Control Centre, Royal Air Force The statistical report and supplementary information Elements of 90 Signals Unit, Royal Air Force can be found at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science- Elements of 2 (Mechanical Transport) Squadron, research/research-statistics/. Royal Air Force I am pleased to inform the House that I have also Elements of 5001 Squadron, Royal Air Force today placed in the Library the annual report of the Elements of 3 Mobile Catering Squadron Home Office Animals Scientific Procedures Division Elements of Tactical Medical Wing and Inspectorate for the year 2010. Elements of 1 (Expeditionary Logistics) Squadron Publication of the report honours a commitment given in response to a recommendation of the House Elements of 93 (Expeditionary Armaments) Squadron of Lords Select Committee on Animals in Scientific Elements of Tactical Imagery Wing Procedures in July 2002 that more information should Elements of 5131(BD) Sqn be made available about the implementation of the Volunteer and ex-regular members of the Reserve Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. Forces will continue to deploy to Afghanistan as part As in previous years, the report explains what Home of this integrated force package, and we expect to issue Office inspectors do and how they do it and the around 530 call-out notices. On completion of their inspectorate’s role in assessing and advising on applications mobilisation procedures the reservists will undertake a for personal and project licences and certificates of period of training and, where applicable, integration designation under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) with their respective receiving units. The majority will Act 1986 and reporting non-compliance. serve on operations for around six months. As part of The report also contains information on the work this commitment we expect up to 24 members of the of the ASPD policy and licensing teams; it explains sponsored reserves to be in theatre at any one time. how, in partnership with ASPI, ASPD have continued The UK’s conventional force level will remain at to work towards delivering our better regulation 9,500 for the duration of the deployment. programme and new IT system; includes a section I shall make a further Statement on the units we setting out the reporting of cases of non-compliance expect to serve under 20th Armoured Brigade’s planned and infringements of ASPA and the outcomes of replacement formation, 12 Mechanized Brigade, nearer these cases (see Annexe D), and records progress with the time of their deployment. the adoption of European Directive 2010/63/EU on the protection of animals used for scientific purposes, which came into force on 9 November 2010. Animals in Scientific Procedures: Statistics Statement Armed Forces: Allowances Statement The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Browning): My right honourable friend the Parliamentary The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Under-Secretary of State for Equalities and Criminal of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable Information (Lynne Featherstone) has today made friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Liam Fox) the following Written Ministerial Statement. has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 63 Written Statements[13 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 64

Our forces currently on operations in Libya are The Government commend Professor Munro’s performing brilliantly and at considerable risk to thorough analysis of the issues and accept her fundamental themselves. We regularly review the payment of the argument that the child protection system has lost its operational allowance (OA) that recognises the risk focus on the thing that matters most: the views and and hardships faced by our forces on operations. experience of children themselves. We believe we need We have recently completed such a review, and have to move towards a child protection system with less decided it is only appropriate to extend the OA to all central prescription and interference, where we place those serving this country on operations in Libya. greater trust and responsibility in skilled professionals This will result in the payment of OA to anyone at the front line. operating within the landmass, airspace and territorial The Government’s response is not a one-off set of waters of Libya, including all aircrew operating over recommended solutions to be imposed from the centre. the Libyan landmass and to ships and submarines Rather it is the start of a shift in mindset and relationship within 12 nautical miles of the coast. Payment is based between central government, local agencies and frontline on the number of days within the specified areas, and professionals, working in partnership. Change will will be backdated until 18 March 2011 with funding evolve and best practice will develop based on experience, coming from the reserve. innovation and evidence. Our aim will be to create the In accordance with the agreed policy, those engaged conditions for sustained, long-term reform which enables in operations for which they are in receipt of OA on and inspires professionals to do their best for vulnerable the day that individuals are notified—1 September children and their families. 2011 for the Army and the RAF, 30 September 2011 Professor Munro will continue to advise the for the Royal Navy—will be excluded from the redundancy Government and will undertake an interim assessment programme. Similarly, those on a dedicated operational of progress in spring 2012. I have placed copies of the work up package, of up to six months, or post operational Government’s response in the House Libraries. tour leave on the day of notifications will also be excluded. Elections: Registration Child Protection Statement Statement Baroness Northover: My honourable friend the Minister The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for for Political and Constitutional Reform (Mark Harper) Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My honourable friend has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children I am announcing today the publication of draft and Families (Tim Loughton) has made the following legislation on three electoral administration provisions Written Ministerial Statement. for pre-legislative scrutiny. On 10 June 2010, I informed the house that the Government were commissioning the Munro review The draft legislation is intended to form part of a of child protection. This was the very first review larger package of measures that will also include draft established in the Department for Education, underlining legislation on individual electoral registration (IER), the enormous priority this Government place on getting which has been published separately for pre-legislative child protection right. scrutiny. From the start, we wanted the Munro review of The draft legislation addresses particular issues that child protection to be different. That is why, unlike its have been raised by MPs and peers, and by electoral predecessors, it was not commissioned as an immediate stakeholders, and proposes practical and sensible changes response to a specific crisis. That is why Professor that will help to deliver more effective electoral Munro’s final report—published in May—recommended administration. that regulation and prescription are reduced rather The draft legislation includes provisions that extend than increased. And—most importantly of all—that the timetable for UK parliamentary elections from 17 is why it focused on the child, rather than the system. to 25 days and similarly extends the timetable for UK I am extremely grateful to Professor Munro for parliamentary by-elections. The existing timetable for undertaking a wide-ranging and in-depth review. I am UK parliamentary elections and by-elections is also grateful to all the organisations in the sector, the considerably shorter than the electoral timetable for child protection workforce and the wider public, including all other UK polls. The very limited time available for children and young people themselves, who contributed the postal vote process compromises effective participation to the review. Their experience, insights and expertise in elections by certain types of voter, particularly have helped make her final report so well informed, overseas and service voters. Moreover, the existing and so widely welcomed. timetable puts considerable pressure on administrative Just as Professor Munro conducted her review openly processes by compressing a large number of tasks into and collaboratively, the Government have worked with a short period, which represents significant risks to the the sector to develop the Government’s response. An effective conduct of elections. implementation working group, drawing on expertise Extending the timetable for UK parliamentary elections from local authority children’s services, the social work and by-elections will bring benefits for voters and profession, the police and, in particular, education administrators, as well as adding to the robustness and and the health service, advised on the Government’s integrity of the electoral process. The Government response to Professor Munro’s recommendations. propose that, within this extended timetable: WS 65 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 66

the deadline for parties to nominate candidates There should be no doubt about the seriousness should continue to be six days after the start of the with which the Government treats this problem or our timetable, so parties will have the same time as now determination to tackle it. The Housing Minister and to put forward candidates to stand for election. In I have already published new guidance on the DirectGov practice this will now be 19, rather than 11, days website for property owners on evicting squatters under before the date of poll, which will allow administrators existing legislation. to begin printing ballot papers further in advance of The consultation paper we are publishing today polling day; and invites views on whether more should be done to provision should be made for updated versions of strengthen the criminal law or its enforcement. We the electoral register to be created at an earlier could do this, for example, by introducing a new point in the timetable to allow postal votes to be offence of squatting; by strengthening existing offences distributed to new registration applicants earlier that currently apply to squatters; or by working with than is currently possible. the enforcement authorities to identify and overcome We also propose to address an oversight in existing barriers to enforcement of existing offences that may legislation passed during the previous Government’s be committed by squatters. time in office that allows a candidate standing for a The Government acknowledge that some of the single party in a UK parliamentary election to use an options they are proposing may have an impact on the emblem on their ballot paper but does not allow enforcement authorities, local authorities, homelessness jointly-nominated candidates to do so. This issue has charities and other organisations. Any option we decide primarily affected candidates standing on behalf of to pursue as a result of this consultation will need to the Labour Party and the Co-operative Party. The be workable and affordable, taking account of the proposal will ensure that electoral law is consistent on current economic climate and reduction in government this issue. expenditure. The draft legislation also makes changes to the Of course, we must also tackle problems affecting existing system for reviews of polling districts and the wider housing market and bring more empty homes places in Great Britain for UK parliamentary elections back into productive use. The Government intend to to bring them in line with the five-year cycle for UK publish an empty homes strategy over the summer and parliamentary boundary reviews implemented by the a wider housing strategy in the autumn, setting out the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act overall approach to housing policy, including how we 2011 and the proposed cycle of parliamentary terms are supporting an increase in the supply and quality of under the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. new private and social housing, helping those seeking I am today sending the draft legislation to the a home of their own, whether to rent or buy. The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee for Government have already made available £4.5 billion pre-legislative scrutiny. to help deliver new affordable housing through the A Command Paper setting out the draft legislation Affordable Homes Programme and as part of that and associated explanatory notes will be laid before £100 million to bring empty homes back into use. the House. I am placing copies of the consultation paper in the Libraries of both Houses, but it can also be viewed on Housing: Squatters the Ministry of Justice website: www.justice.gov.uk. Copies have also been placed in the Vote Office and Statement Printed Paper Office. Baroness Northover: My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Identity and Passport Service: Annual Justice (Crispin Blunt) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Report and Accounts The Government have become increasingly concerned Statement about the distress and misery that squatters can cause. Law-abiding property owners or occupiers who work The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness hard for a living can spend thousands of pounds Browning): My honourable friend the Minister of State evicting squatters from their properties, repairing damage for Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the and clearing up the debris they have left behind. following Written Ministerial Statement. I have met honourable Members and corresponded The Identity and Passport Service annual report with members of the public who have expressed concern and accounts 2010-11 have been laid before the House about the appalling impact squatting has had on their today and copies will be available in the Vote Office. properties or local neighbourhoods. The Government do not accept the claim that is Independent Safeguarding Authority: sometimes made that squatting is a reasonable recourse of the homeless resulting from social deprivation. Annual Report and Accounts There are options open to those who are genuinely Statement destitute and who need shelter that do not involve occupying somebody else’s property without authority. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness No matter how compelling or difficult the squatter’s Browning): My honourable friend the Parliamentary own circumstances are claimed to be, it is wrong that Under-Secretary of State for Equalities and Criminal legitimate occupants should be deprived of the use of Information (Lynne Featherstone) has today made their property. the following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 67 Written Statements[13 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 68

I am pleased to announce that the annual report unmarried or same-sex partners, dependent children 2010-11 and accounts of the Independent Safeguarding and adult and elderly dependent relatives. In 2010, Authority (ISA) will be laid before Parliament and 48,900 visas were granted to people on the family published today. route, of which 40,500 were issued to people on the Copies will be available in the Vote Office. basis of marriage or civil or other partnership, and 8,400 were issued to dependants. Intelligence and Security Committee: We set out firm proposals for reform of the family Annual Report route. The key elements are: a minimum income threshold for sponsors to provide appropriate maintenance, on Statement which we have asked the Migration Advisory Committee The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord to advise; in line with other routes, extending the Strathclyde): My right honourable friend the Prime probationary period from two years to five years before Minister has made the following Statement. a spouse or partner can apply for settlement (and before which non-contributory benefits may not be I am grateful to the Intelligence and Security claimed. Access to the labour market, to the NHS and Committee for its valuable work and its latest annual to schooling will be unaffected by this change); and a report (Cm. 8114). Following consultation with the requirement to understand everyday English before committee over matters that could not be published settlement is granted. We propose that all those seeking without prejudicing the work of the intelligence and settlement or citizenship should demonstrate an security agencies, I have today laid the report before appropriate level of English, and we will consider the House. whether changes to the current testing regime could The Government’s response to this report will be further assist integration. laid before the House after the Summer Recess. Copies of the report have been placed in the Libraries We also propose to help UK Border Agency of both Houses. caseworkers consider spouse and partner applications by defining what we mean under the rules by a genuine and continuing relationship, marriage or partnership; Migration to end immediate settlement, and immediate access to Statement benefits, on entry for spouses and partners who have been married or in a relationship for at least four years The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness before coming to the UK, and for adult dependent Browning): My honourable friend the Minister of State relatives, including those aged 65 or over, and to for Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the require both groups to complete a five-year probationary following Written Ministerial Statement. period; and to look at arrangements for dependent Today, I am publishing a consultation on family relatives aged 65 or over to settle in the UK, reflecting migration. Immigration has enriched our culture and health and social care costs to the taxpayer. strengthened our economy, but uncontrolled immigration The consultation also invites discussion on some places pressure on our public services and on community broader propositions, particularly in relation to tackling cohesion. The Government have already introduced a sham marriages and forced marriages. On sham marriages limit on non-European Economic Area economic these build on existing joint work between the UK migrants entering the UK; has reshaped tiers 1 and 2 Border Agency and the general register offices across of the points-based system to increase selectivity and the UK, local registration services and the Anglican skills requirements; has started implementing changes Church. They also explore the case for legislative to tier 4, the student visa system; and are currently change in England and Wales, including making “sham” consulting on breaking the link between economic an impediment to marriage and allowing a marriage migration and settlement, and on other temporary to be delayed while a suspected sham is investigated. work routes. These policies will reduce net migration, but we need to take action across all routes to ensure It is important that we look at family migration in this returns to sustainable levels and we bring a sense the round and so the consultation also deals with of fairness back to our immigration system. other family migration issues. This consultation on family migration is the next in In 2010, 45,200 dependants under the points-based our programme of immigration reforms. In the year to system were granted a visa with a route to settlement September 2010, family migration accounted for around in the UK. The consultation proposes moving to a 17 per cent of all non-EU immigration to the UK. five-year probationary period and everyday English The proposals included in the family consultation for settlement for the spouses and civil and other are aimed at tackling abuse, promoting integration partners of points-based system migrants, in line with and reducing burdens on the taxpayer. A contribution other groups. to reduced net migration would be welcome but is not Many British citizens and persons settled in the UK the primary goal. The focus is on delivering better have family members living outside the UK. This family migration: better for migrants, for communities results in a high volume of visa applications from people and for the UK as a whole. wishing to visit family here. In 2010, 350,300 family The consultation concentrates on the family route: visit visas were issued, with around 73 per cent granted those non-EEA nationals entering, remaining in or on initial decision by the visa officer. In 2010-11, settling in the UK on the basis of a relationship with a 95 per cent of family visit visa applications were British citizen or person settled in the UK. This includes decided by the UK Border Agency within 15 working fiancé(e)s, proposed civil partners, spouses, civil partners, days. WS 69 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 70

We have reviewed the arrangements for the operation The PRiF committee will continue to support Defra, of the family visit visa. We are concerned that taxpayer the devolved Administrations and the Food Standards funding of around £40 million per year is being spent Agency on the scope and operation of surveillance for on appeals where appellants are commonly misusing residues of pesticides in food and the significance to the appeals system, by submitting information on consumers of any residues detected. appeal that should have been put forward as part of The new committee’s membership and terms of the original application, or where a second application reference can be found on the PRiF website: http:// (costing another £76) is the most appropriate route for www.pesticides.gov.uk/prc_home.asp. securing a visa. We are also concerned that this is a disproportionate use of taxpayer funding (for an appeal process that can take up 34 weeks to be concluded) for the benefit sought: a short-term visit to the UK. Prison and Probation Services Greater priority should be given to appeal cases that Statement have far-reaching impacts for the individuals concerned and for the public at large, for example asylum claims, settlement applications and the deportation of foreign Baroness Northover: My right honourable friend criminals. the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Kenneth Clarke, QC) has made the following Written In the light of this, we are reviewing the full right of Ministerial Statement. appeal for family visit visas and we invite views on whether there are circumstances in which an appeal In the response to the Green Paper: Breaking the right should be retained, beyond the race discrimination Cycle: Effective Punishment, Rehabilitation and Sentencing and human rights grounds which, in line with other of Offenders, I set out a vision for a transformed categories of temporary entry clearance, will continue justice system that will focus on public protection and to be available. cutting crime. An important part of delivering the changes I am committed to is ensuring that the services Finally, the consultation invites discussion on the we provide are focused on delivering the best possible balance to be struck on Article 8 of the European outcomes and the greatest value for money. Convention on Human Rights (the right to respect for private and family life) between individual rights and Competition between providers of our services can the public interest in public protection and maintaining help us to meet these challenges as the previous immigration controls. Article 8 is not an absolute right Government recognised when they made contestability and our proposals aim to set out requirements that a feature of offender services when setting up the must be satisfied in family migration cases which are National Offender Management Service in 2004. The consistent with our ECHR obligations. We also want competition strategy for offender services, which I to be clear about the circumstances in which the public have published today, sets out how we will change the interest will outweigh an individual’s Article 8 right. way we use competition to meet these aims. My approach is based on ensuring an effective balance between Details of the public consultation can be found on making services more efficient while reforming them the Home Office website and a copy will also be so that they provide better outcomes for the public. In placed in the Library of the House. doing so, we will draw on a wide range of expertise The consultation will run for 12 weeks, until 6 October from the private and voluntary sector, which will work 2011, and we will announce our firm plans in due in partnership with a strong public sector. course, with a view to implementing changes during For offender services, I intend to employ the principle 2012. that competition will apply at some stage to all those services not currently bound to public sector delivery Non-departmental Public Bodies by statute. This will mean the benefits of competition can be felt much more widely, contrasting with the Statement previous approach of only using competition when procuring new services or as a way of managing poor The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, performance. Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Underpinning this approach will be our commitment (Lord Henley): My right honourable friend the Minister to apply more widely the principles of payment by of State for Agriculture and Food has today made the results to services which reduce reoffending. By paying following Statement. some or all of a contract value on the basis of the On 14 October 2010, the Government announced reduced re-offending levels achieved, we can focus the outcome of their review of non-departmental service providers’ efforts on what works. This will public bodies (NDPBs). This reported that the majority ensure that money spent on rehabilitation is spent of Defra’s scientific and technical advisory bodies effectively. We intend to run a number of pilot exercises were to be abolished and reconstituted as expert scientific and competition will be a key mechanism in deciding committees to provide advice on specific areas. As which models we adopt. part of implementing these reforms, the Pesticide Residues In practice, this will mean taking a different approach Committee (PRC), which was a non-statutory advisory for both custodial and non-custodial services. The use NDPB, has been abolished and replaced by an expert of competition in custodial services is now well established scientific committee from 1 July 2011. The new committee as most recently demonstrated by the successful outcome will be called the Expert Committee on Pesticide Residues of the competition for four prisons which I announced in Food (PRiF) to more accurately reflect its remit. in March this year. WS 71 Written Statements[13 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 72

To ensure that we build on this strong record I Copies of the offender services competition strategy am announcing today my intention to launch competitions have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The for the management of a further nine prisons in the document is also available online at: www.justice.gov.uk/ autumn. These are Lindholme, Moorland, Hatfield publications/corporate-reports/moj/oscs.htm. and the Wolds in Yorkshire, Acklington and Castington in Northumberland, Durham, Onley in Northamptonshire and Coldingley in Surrey. The Wolds is a prison run by G4S that has come to the end of its Railways: Crossrail current contract; the other eight prisons are public Statement sector establishments being competed for the first time. The public sector will have the opportunity to compete in all of these prison competitions. Earl Attlee: My right honourable friend the Minister of State for Transport (Theresa Villiers) has made the These prisons have been selected by the National following Ministerial Statement. Offender Management Service to balance our need to Crossrail will support economic growth for London increase efficiency and to make real the policy intent and the UK. As part of the comprehensive spending of the Green Paper. review in October 2010, the coalition Government Looking to the future, there is a need to consider confirmed their commitment to the full Crossrail scheme. the future shape of probation services in England and A re-phased programme of delivery means that Crossrail Wales to improve justice outcomes and to make the services will commence from 2018. We expect Crossrail justice system more efficient and effective. I have asked to cost no more than £14.5 billion. Forecasts continue my officials to explore the possible options for service to suggest that Crossrail will be delivered within its improvements and different models of delivering offender existing funding. services within the community. I will set out my preferred Crossrail has made significant progress since the approach in the autumn. Alongside this, and supporting last annual update to Parliament. Crossrail Limited it, I will set out in detail my competition strategy for has now let all its key tunnelling contracts and enabling non-custodial services, which will also encompass the works are continuing at a number of sites across recently launched competition for community payback central London. Construction is well advanced at services, the competition for electronic monitoring Canary Wharf Crossrail Station, and tunnel-boring contracts I am announcing today, and payment by machines are expected to be launched in spring 2012. results pilots in the community. In April 2011, Crossrail passed through the final project review point, at which point the department and TfL A further important element of our drive for greater delegated full contractual authority to Crossrail Limited efficiency is to ensure we have a modern, fit-for-purpose to deliver the scheme. The new chief executive of prison estate which can deliver high-quality, cost-effective Crossrail Limited, Andrew Wolstenholme, was appointed and secure regimes. With the prison population not in May 2011. growing at the rate predicted by the last Government, we have an opportunity to close some of our more During the passage of the Crossrail Act through inefficient places. Parliament, a commitment was given that a Statement would be published at least every 12 months until the I am therefore announcing the closure of HMPs completion of the construction of Crossrail, setting Latchmere House and Brockhill. This will see a reduction out information about the project’s funding and finances. of 377 prison spaces. This is part of an overall programme In line with this commitment, this Statement comes that includes a further 2,500 new prison places becoming within 12 months of my last one which was published available over the next 12 months. This will ensure that on 15 July 2010. The relevant information is as follows: our operational capacity continues to handle the projected prison population in a way that meets the need both Total funding amounts provided to Crossrail £1,484,605,000 for greater efficiency and ability to support a strengthened Limited by the Department for Transport focus on protection of the public and rehabilitation. and TfL in relation to the construction of Crossrail to the end of the period (22 July The closure of these places will provide estimated 2008 to 29 May 2011) (excluding recoverable cost savings of £4.9 million this year and an ongoing VAT on land and property purchases) Expenditure incurred (including committed £723,475,000 annual saving of £11.4 million. We also anticipate land and property spend not yet paid out) by capital receipts from sale of the land at Latchmere Crossrail Limited in relation to the construction House, which is in a prime location. We will transfer of Crossrail in the period (30 May 2010 to 29 resettlement provision from that establishment to HMP May 2011) (excluding recoverable VAT on Brixton to maintain our focus on reducing re-offending. land and property purchases) We expect to be able to absorb staff displaced by this Total expenditure incurred (including committed £1,884,254,000 land and property spend not yet paid out) by process elsewhere in the system and to avoid the use of Crossrail Limited in relation to the construction compulsory redundancies. of Crossrail to the end of the period (22 July 2008 to 29 May 2011) (excluding recoverable The public have a right to expect continuing VAT on land and property purchases) improvement in the quality and efficiency of public The amounts realised by the disposal of any Nil services, without compromising public safety. The land or property for the purposes of the competition strategy and adjustments to the prison construction of Crossrail by the Secretary of estate I have outlined today will help ensure that this is State, TfL or Crossrail Limited in the period covered by the statement the case. WS 73 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 74

The numbers above are drawn from Crossrail Limited’s whether the CPS followed all relevant guidance books of account and have been prepared on a consistent and policy in relation to the known existence of an basis with the update provided last year. The figure for undercover police officer in this case. expenditure incurred includes monies already paid out The independent inquiry will also make such in relevant periods, including committed land and recommendations it feels appropriate in light of the property expenditure where this has not yet been paid. examination and findings set out above, including, if It does not include future expenditure on construction appropriate, recommendations about CPS policy and/or contracts that have been awarded. guidance and CPS arrangements for handling cases involving undercover police officers. Ratcliffe-on-Soar Power Station: Inquiry The independent inquiry has been established by, and will report its findings and recommendations to Statement the Director of Public Prosecutions. Sir Christopher will have full access to all the The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace available evidence and will work in tandem with the of Tankerness): My honourable friend the Solicitor- IPCC inquiry into this matter. Both organisations are General has made the following Written Ministerial committed to sharing all relevant information and Statement. arrangements are being made to ensure there is meaningful On 18 April 2011, Keir Starmer QC, the Director of liaison between the two inquiries. Inevitably this work Public Prosecutions, announced that following a review will take time but will be completed as soon as is by Clare Montgomery QC, the safety of the convictions practicable. The Director of Public Prosecutions intends of the individuals who protested at Ratcliffe-on-Soar to make public the findings and recommendations of power station, should be considered by the Court of the independent inquiry. Appeal as soon as possible. During that review, the CPS had been conducting an internal investigation into its own handling of the Serious Organised Crime Agency: case. However, in light of growing concerns about the Annual Report and Accounts non-disclosure of material relating to the activities of an undercover police officer in this case and, following Statement discussion with the Attorney-General and me, the DPP said last month that he would establish an The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness independent inquiry conducted by a senior legal figure. Browning): My right honourable friend the Secretary The DPP has now confirmed that retired Court of of State for the Home Department (Theresa May) has Appeal judge, Sir Christopher Rose will conduct this today made the following Written Ministerial Statement. inquiry. The Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) has The terms of reference have been agreed with today published their annual report and accounts for Sir Christopher and are as follows: 2010-11. I have laid a copy before the House and made The independent inquiry will examine and make arrangements to place copies in the Vote Office. findings in respect of the following matters: whether the CPS approach to charging in this case was right, bearing in mind the known existence of UK Border Agency: Annual Report and an undercover police officer in the operation; Accounts whether the CPS and prosecution counsel complied Statement with their disclosure duties properly in relation to the known existence of an undercover police officer in this case; The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness whether the CPS arrangements in place for handling Browning): My honourable friend the Minister of State the known existence of an undercover police officer, for Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the including arrangements between the police and the following Written Ministerial Statement. CPS, the CPS and counsel and the local prosecuting The UK Border Agency annual report and accounts team and the national co-ordinator, were adequate 2010-11 has been laid before the House today. Copies and properly followed in this case; and will be made available in the Vote Office. WA 173 Written Answers[13 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 174

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Written Answers Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Our ambassador has expressed concern about the case of Ghazi Farhan Wednesday 13 July 2011 with Bahraini Ministers, in the context of his wife’s British nationality. He has not specifically raised the other cases. However, we have raised our concerns Armed Forces: Commemoration about the reports of abuse in detention, lack of access to legal counsel, coerced confessions and that civilians Question were being tried before a military judge. Asked by Lord Rogan Our embassy in Bahrain attended many of the trials to observe the proceedings. We continue to press To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any the Government of Bahrain to ensure that due process British Foreign Secretary has visited the Baku British is carefully and transparently followed. We have underlined War memorial dedicated to British soldiers and that civil liberties should be protected, particularly sailors who died at the end of the First World War where severe penalties are proposed. Anyone accused defending that city; and whether the Foreign Secretary should have adequate time to prepare a defence, access will visit the memorial when next in Baku.[HL10900] to legal counsel and be tried before independent, impartial tribunals. We continue to urge the Government The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth of Bahrain, at the highest level, to take forward their Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): No serving Foreign commitment to investigate the claims of abuse. In this Secretary has visited the Baku British War Memorial. context, we welcome the establishment on 30 June by HRH The Duke of York and Lord Jones, while Minister the King, of an independent commission composed of for Trade and Investment, visited the memorial in international figures to look into the events of recent 2005 and 2008 respectively. months and into allegations of human rights abuses. Our ambassador in Baku attends Remembrance Sunday at the memorial every year and lays a wreath on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government. If the Foreign Bank of England: Financial Policy Secretary visits Baku, consideration will be given to Committee including a visit to the memorial in his itinerary. Questions Aviation: Passenger Duty Asked by Lord Myners Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion Asked by Lord Laird of the proposed independent membership of the Bank of England Financial Policy Committee are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the non-resident or non-domiciled for tax purposes. current rate of the current air passenger tax for [HL10864] those arriving in Northern Ireland from the United States; and by how much it has increased since first The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord imposed. [HL10945] Sassoon): It would not be appropriate for the Government ToaskHerMajesty’sGovernmentwhatrepresentations to disclose private tax information relating to specific they have received over changes of the air passenger individuals. duty for those arriving in Northern Ireland from the Asked by Lord Myners United States, both for and against an increase in the duty. [HL10946] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the independent members of the Bank of England’s The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Financial Policy Committee (FPC) will have their Sassoon): There is no air passenger duty (APD) liable own research budgets; whether they will be able to for passengers arriving into the UK from other countries. commission research by individuals or organizations APD is liable only for passengers departing from a outside the Bank of England; and what is the UK airport. situation in this respect for the current members of The APD consultation closed on 17 June 2011. We the shadow FPC. [HL10865] have received many representations from organisations in Northern Ireland regarding reform of APD. The Lord Sassoon: The interim Financial Policy Committee Government will publish their response in the autumn. is supported by Bank staff, who are available to undertake research requested by external members of the committee. Bahrain Question Banking Asked by Lord Hylton Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by Lord Myners have made representations to the Government of Bahrain about the arrest and alleged maltreatment To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to of (a) Mr Mohamed Ghuloom Darwish, (b) Mr Ghazi the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 4 July Farhan, and (c) Ms Ayat al-Gormezi; and, if so, (WA 2), whether the Project Merlin lending targets what was the outcome. [HL10651] to which he refers are the “real” or “stretch targets” WA 175 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 176

as described by the Minister of State at the value of Northern Bank banknotes which were not Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, returned in the 2005 recall, and the note issues; and Mark Prisk, on 22 June (Official Report, Commons, what they mean by “declaration of notes by series”. col. 334W). [HL10867] [HL10827]

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Lord Sassoon: While the Government have records Sassoon): The Merlin commitment agreed with the of the value of notes stolen, it does not keep records of banks that they would make available the appropriate the unreturned notes from the 2005 recall by Northern capital and resources to support gross new lending Bank. of £190 billion to UK businesses. This includes new The Government’s interest in commercially issued committed lending capacity of £76 billion to small banknotes extends to ensuring that holders of those and medium-sized enterprises. This goes beyond what banknotes are adequately protected in the event of the banks lent in 2010 and their initial assessment of one of the issuing banks getting into difficulty. what they would lend in 2011. Reporting under Part 6 of the Banking Act 2009 requires commercial issuers to declare the total value Banking: Afghanistan of their notes in circulation for the purposes of noteholder protection. However, it does not require these figures Question to be broken down by design, by series or by year of Asked by Lord Myners issue, as that level of detail makes no material difference to the value of backing assets that must be held. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they, or any Government agencies, have deposits, accounts Businesses: Red Tape or credit balances with Kabul Bank of Afghanistan. Question [HL10620] Asked by Lord Laird The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals Sassoon): HM Treasury guidance states that departments they have to cut red tape for small businesses. should obtain Treasury agreement before they or a [HL10901] public body which they sponsor open a commercial bank account. No department has asked for Treasury The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, authority to open a commercial account at Kabul Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Bank of Afghanistan. Wilcox): This Government have set out a clear aim—to leave office having reduced the overall burden of regulation. Banking: Northern Rock The coalition agreement set out an ambitious agenda Questions for dealing with the burden of red tape on businesses. In September, the Government introduced the One-in, Asked by Lord Beecham One-out rule for new regulation so a new regulatory To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in burden cannot be introduced without identifying another any future sale or disposal of Northern Rock, they to be removed first. In December, we introduced a new will impose as a condition that the Northern Rock approach to transposing EU directives, to end gold-plating Foundation should continue to receive long-term and ensure they are not transposed in such a way that financial support from the bank at least to the level they disadvantage UK businesses relative to their EU currently required. [HL10730] competitors. In March we introduced sunset clauses in new regulations which impose a cost on businesses, to ensure they remain relevant and are fit for purpose. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord However, we recognise that badly designed regulation Sassoon): The Government appreciate the good work and red tape can have a particularly damaging effect that the Northern Rock Foundation has been doing in on our smallest businesses. the north-east and in Cumbria. In The Plan for Growth, published alongside the Any purchaser would inherit the current obligation Budget 2011, as part of a package of measures to to fund 1 per cent of Northern Rock’s pre-tax profits improve the UK’s regulatory environment, the to the foundation through to the end of 2012 with the Government announced that micro-businesses (those potential for a rolling one-year extension, by mutual with fewer than 10 employees) and start-ups would be consent. exempt from all new domestic regulation for three As the sale process has only recently been announced, years. We also decided not to extend the right to it is too early to speculate on any outcome but it is request time to train to SMEs, potentially saving SMEs expected that any bidder will think very carefully approximately £350 million and not to bring forward about the role of the foundation in the future. the dual discrimination provision, saving business up Asked by Lord Laird to £3 million per year. Last month, my right honourable friend the Prime To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Minister launched the Red Tape Challenge website the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 28 June (www.redtapechallenge.cabinetoffice.gov.uk), which asks (WA 412), whether they have a record of the total the public and businesses to identify regulations that WA 177 Written Answers[13 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 178 need to be amended or removed. Every few weeks Debt regulations affecting one specific sector or industry will be published on the website. There is also the Question opportunity to comment on cross-cutting areas of Asked by Lord Whitty regulation, such as employment law. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is (a) the total size, (b) the average time of maturity of loans, (c) the average rate of interest due on debt, (d) the Consumer Markets Authority schedule of tranches of repayment by year (or Question bands of years), (e) the equivalent percentage of gross domestic product, and (f) the equivalent Asked by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town percentage of public expenditure, for United Kingdom Government debt. [HL10889] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, under their proposals A competition regime for growth (March 2011), the super-complaints such as that The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord submitted by Which? on card payment surcharges Sassoon): (a) as at end-March 2011, public sector net in March will be investigated by the proposed debt, excluding the temporary effects of financial Consumer Markets Authority. [HL10709] interventions (PSND ex), was £905.9 billion (source: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/psf0611.pdf); (b) the largest portion of PSND comprises gilts The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, and Treasury bills, issued by the Debt Management Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Office (DMO). As at end-March 2011, the market Wilcox): The Government launched a consultation on value-weighted average maturity of the total stock Institutional Changes for the Provision of Consumer of gilts and Treasury bills, excluding government holdings, Information, Advice, Education, Advocacy and Enforcement was 13.51 years (source: http://www.dmo.gov.uk/ on 21 June 2011 which included proposals for the ways documentview.aspx?docname=publications/ that super-complaints would be handled if the proposed quarterly/jan-marl1.pdf&page=Quarterly_Review); Competition and Markets Authority is established. (c) as at end-March 2011, the market value-weighted Most super-complaints highlight alleged structural average yield on outstanding conventional gilts was market failings where further analysis is necessary 3.11 per cent and 0.32 per cent on index-linked gilts and, as a result, the consultation proposes that they (source: http://www.dmo.gov.uk/documentview.aspx? should be handled by the proposed new Competition docname=publications/quarterly/jan- and Markets Authority. marl1.pdf&page=Quarterly_Review); It may be appropriate also to have a process by (d) the profile of gilt redemptions is published which designated consumer bodies could simply request on the DMO’s website at: http://www.dmo.gov.uk/ enforcement action against a pattern of alleged breaches index.aspx?page=Gilts/Gilts_In_Issue; of consumer law. The consultation asks for views on the suggestion that the proposed Trading Standards (e) as at end-March 2011, PSND ex accounted for Policy Board would receive such super-complaints. 60.1 per cent of gross domestic product (source: http:// www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/psf0611.pdf); and (f) PSND ex (as at end-March 2011) accounted for 130.1 per cent of public sector total managed expenditure Cornwall: Stannary Law in 2010-11. Question Asked by Lord Laird European Parliament To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Question the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 11 May Asked by Lord Hylton (WA 213–4) concerning stannary law, what is meant by the use of “likely” in the statement that “it is To ask Her Majesty’s Government what would likely that such customary law has been superseded be the annual saving of centralising all the facilities by modern legislation”. [HL10726] of the European Parliament in one city; whether any capital expenditure would be necessary; when they last made representations on this subject; and Lord Taylor of Holbeach: It would be for a court to what was the result. [HL10650] decide in the context of a particular case what account, if any, is to be taken of stannary customs. The Government’s assessment of likelihood was based on The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the absence of recent reported cases concerning such Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Estimates suggest customs. The Government have become aware of a that having two seats for the European Parliament very small number of applications to the county court currently costs the British taxpayer at least £28 million in recent years concerning tin bounding, which is a a year. However, the full cost to the EU budget of the very specific aspect of stannary law. The Government European Parliament sessions in Strasbourg is not are unaware of any other recent cases where the court publicly available. This is not itemised separately in the has upheld arguments derived from stannary customs. European Parliament’s budget. It is possible that some WA 179 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 180 capital expenditure would be necessary were the European Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Individual departments Parliament facilities to be centralised in one city, depending have published this information for 2009-10 in their on the circumstances at the time. updated business plans, which can be seen via the Ministers have made representations to ministerial Cabinet Office website: www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/news/ counterparts in other EU member states, the European department-business-plans-updated. Commission and the European Parliament on the We will provide a commentary on the overall picture dual sitting of the European Parliament. as part of the SME progress report to be published on The European Parliament itself voted on 9 March 19 July. to hold 11 sessions per year in Strasbourg instead of 12 in both 2012 and 2013. Government Departments: Research and Food: Waste Data Questions Question Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps the Written Answer by Baroness Wilcox on 23 June they will take in the forthcoming year to reduce (WA365), what data collection does the Department food waste; and by what date they aim for zero food for Business, Innovation and Skills undertake. waste to go to landfill . [HL10861] [HL10615]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, (Lord Henley): The Government’s review of waste Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness policy in England, published in June, sets our direction Wilcox): The information on data collections that the to move towards a zero waste economy, in which Department for Business, Innovation and Skills undertakes resources are reused, recycled or recovered wherever will be placed in the Library of the House. possible, and only disposed of as a last resort. To Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark reduce food waste in the forthcoming year, we will move towards fulfilling our commitments laid out in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what data the review. collection HM Revenue and Customs undertakes. The public sector will lead by example across its [HL10790] own estate. Government buying standards for the procurement of food and catering by government departments and their agencies are now ready to be The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord implemented. We are also working with trade Sassoon): HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) collects organisations and businesses to develop a responsibility data, including personal and business data, that are deal in the hospitality sector, and will be continuing to required in order to achieve its business purpose i.e. the make it easy for businesses and consumers to reduce collection of taxes and distribution of benefits and food waste, notably through the Courtauld commitment. credits. While we have not set a specific date to achieve zero HMRC also collects data in relation to enforcement food waste going to landfill, we believe that the measures of UK tax law and for various administrative set out in the waste review and the publication of the purposes. anaerobic digestion strategy and action plan highlight this as a foreseeable goal, while ensuring that waste collection services and the waste treatment infrastructure meet local needs. Government Departments: Scientific Advisers Question Government Departments: Expenditure Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government who is the Asked by Lord Cope of Berkeley Departmental Chief Scientific Adviser for the Department for Transport; and (a) when they were To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage appointed and for how long, (b) what is their academic of central government procurement expenditure is or experience background, (c) what is their civil spent with small and medium-sized enterprises. service rank, (d) whether their post is full-time or [HL10890] part-time, and what other work commitments they To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the have, and (e) on how many occasions during the percentage of the total procurement expenditure of past year they have had meetings with the Secretary each government department which is spent with of State for Transport or the Minister to whom small and medium-sized enterprises. [HL10892] they have direct responsibility. [HL10082] WA 181 Written Answers[13 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 182

Earl Attlee: Following the Department for Transport’s Higher Education: Sciences recent restructure we currently have a vacancy for a new Chief Scientific Adviser. We are working in Questions partnership with the Department for Business, Innovation Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough and Skills to run a recruitment campaign for a joint Chief Scientific Adviser in the next few weeks. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light The previous Chief Scientific Adviser, Professor of the proposals in the Higher Education White Brian Collins CBE FREng, left at the end of his term Paper published on 28 June, what proposals they in office in May 2011. In the year to that date, he met have to expand the number of students studying for with the Secretary of State and Ministers on four their first degree in science, technology, engineering occasions. and mathematics. [HL10657]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Health: Orthopaedics Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): The higher education White Paper sets Question out plans to improve the information available to Asked by Lord Black of Brentwood prospective students so they are able to make informed choices about what course to study. Degrees in science, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what technology, engineering and mathematics are valued representations they have received about the inclusion by employers and the key information set will include of osteoporosis in the 2012–13 Quality and Outcomes details on employment and salary outcomes. In addition, Framework; and what action is being taken as a we have asked UCAS and higher education institutions result. [HL10637] to provide new data at course level showing the type and subjects of the qualifications held by previously successful applicants. This will help inform young The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department people’s GCSE and A-level choices and ensure that of Health (Earl Howe): No direct representations have those who want to undertake a STEM degree, have the been made to the department about the inclusion of right qualifications to do so. osteoporosis in the 2012-13 quality and outcomes framework. The White Paper also sets out proposals to free up However, recommendations on the prioritisation of the current, restrictive approach to institution level potential indicators for inclusion in the quality and student number controls, while ensuring the cost to outcomes framework are the responsibility of the National the public purse remains affordable, allowing more Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence which students to attend the institution of their choice and would consider such matters. institutions that can attract students to expand. We have asked HEFCE to consult, immediately, on how to implement these approaches and to monitor the Healthcare: Costs impact of the approach and its effect on supply and demand. Crucially, we have asked HEFCE to ensure Question that, in freeing up student number controls, provision Asked by Lord Laird of, and support for, strategically important and vulnerable subjects is not disadvantaged. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to We know that science and engineering subjects cost the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 20 June more to teach and we want a system where anyone (WA 248), when the unpaid claims for healthcare with the ability can access university and study these costs under European Union Regulation 883/2004 courses, without being put off by the cost. That is why were submitted to Poland; for what dates and for we will continue to provide additional funding for how much; what consideration has been given to these courses. deducting such amounts owing from payments made to Poland; what estimate they make of the annual Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough cost of unclaimed primary medical care for Polish nationals resident in the United Kingdom; and how To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the many such nationals there are. [HL10693] total number of United Kingdom domiciled students qualifying with a first degree in physics, chemistry, biology, engineering and mathematics in each of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the years 2001 to 2010 from universities in England Department of Health (Earl Howe): In 2009-10, claims and Wales. [HL10658] for pensioners and their dependents totalling around £29,000 were submitted by the United Kingdom to Lord Henley: The latest available information from Poland. Payment was made by Poland in 2010-11. the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) is Full details of claims and payments made in 2010-11 shown in the table below. The subject classification will be available following the publication of the system as well as the way in which students were department’s 2010-11 resource accounts in 2011. allocated to subject of study changed in the 2002-03 The department does not hold data on how many academic year. Therefore earlier figures are not comparable Polish nationals, ordinarily resident in the UK, are and have not been provided. Figures for the 2010-11 accessing healthcare in the UK. academic year will be available in January 2012. WA 183 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 184

UK Domiciled First Degree Qualifiers by Subject of Study English and Welsh Higher Education Institutions Academic Years 2002-03 to 2009-10 Mathematical Academic Year Physics Chemistry Biology Engineering (1) Sciences (2) Total

2002-03 1,855 2,390 3,605 10,575 4,140 22,565 2003-04 1,775 2,265 3,710 10,865 4,345 22,965 2004-05 1,905 2,240 3,805 10,400 4,040 22,390 2005-06 1,980 2,055 3.695 10,020 4,120 21,865 2006-07 1,870 2,105 3.880 9,925 4,250 22,030 2007-08 1,825 2,220 3,900 10,040 4,290 22,270 2008-09 1.990 2,285 3,735 10,215 4,440 22,660 2009-10 2,070 2,395 3,840 10,425 4,740 23,470 Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). Notes: Figures are based on a HESA qualifications obtained population and have been rounded to the nearest five. Due to rounding rows may not sum to totals. (1) The subject group of Engineering covers the following types of engineering: General, Civil, Mechanical, Aerospace, Naval Architecture, Electronic & Electrical, Production & Manufacturing, Chemical, Process & Energy, Other. (2) The subject group of Mathematical Sciences covers the following: Mathematics, Operational Research and Statistics.

Homelessness To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have an overall target figure for the number of new Question house completions in England over the next ten Asked by Lord Bradley years, following the abolition of regional allocations. [HL10888] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many people are estimated to have been made homeless in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, each district of Greater Manchester as a result of Department for Communities and Local Government the total cap on benefits. [HL11008] (Baroness Hanham): The Government do not provide estimates of future new build numbers, as forecasting The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, is imprecise and could affect market sentiment. However, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): We there are various private sector organisations which expect to introduce the benefit cap in 2013. It will can, and do, use our statistics to make their own mean that people on benefit will face choices about forecasts. Ultimately, the number of new homes that housing costs similar to those faced by people in work. are built will depend upon market conditions and But it will not necessarily mean that they will need to decisions that are taken at the local level. move from their home. Even within the limits of this The Government have replaced top-down targets cap, households will still be able to receive significant with fiscal incentives for local authorities to develop amounts of financial assistance from state welfare housing. The new homes bonus impact assessment, payments and if a member of the household moves published with the consultation document at: http:// into work and becomes eligible for working tax credit www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/ they will be exempt from the impacts of the cap. newhomesbonusconsult illustrates the potential effect There is a range of help local authorities can offer of local authorities’ response to the incentives. to households at risk of becoming homeless including Annual housing starts reached 106,590 in the 12 months the provision of discretionary housing payments. We to March 2011, up by 22 per cent compared with the have already made an additional £190 million available 12 months to March 2010, and up by 32 per cent over the spending review period for this purpose as a compared with the 12 months to March 2009. result of the changes we have made to housing benefit. Asked by Lord Whitty The Government published their impact assessment of the benefit cap in February alongside the introduction To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their of the Welfare Reform Bill. This made clear that it is estimate of the number of new households that will not possible to estimate the number of additional be formed over the next five years. [HL10887] homelessness applications that might arise as a Baroness Hanham: Statistics on the projected number consequence of the overall benefit cap because this of households in England between 2008 and 2033, would have to be based on behavioural changes. The based on the 2008-based population projections published impact assessment can be found via the following link: by the Office for National Statistics, are published on http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/household-benefit-cap- the DCLG website at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/ wr2011-ia.pdf. publications/corporate/statistics/2033household1110. Housing India and Pakistan Questions Question Asked by Lord Whitty Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they estimate of the numbers of new housing completions will raise with the Commonwealth Secretariat ways in each of the next three financial years in England of achieving détente between India and Pakistan as a result of the new homes bonus. [HL10885] and of increasing their mutual trade. [HL10771] WA 185 Written Answers[13 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 186

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Asked by Lord Touhig Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We welcome the renewed engagement between India and Pakistan To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment following the meeting between Prime Ministers Singh they have made of the treatment of Christians in and Gilani on 30 March. India and Pakistan are Iraq. [HL10720] working to build confidence in a number of areas including bilateral trade. But the scope and pace of Lord Howell of Guildford: The Christian community their dialogue is for India and Pakistan to agree. We in Iraq was targeted in terrorist incidents towards the believe that third parties should neither mediate nor end of 2010 and early 2011. In recent months we have proscribe solutions. It is important that India and seen fewer incidents targeting Christians specifically. Pakistan are given space to pursue a promising series The Government of Iraq have pledged to safeguard of contacts on all aspects of the relationship. the rights and freedoms of all their citizens and to We are working with Pakistan, India and other provide adequate protection for their minority groups. member states to reinvigorate the Commonwealth. The Iraqi Interior Ministry has drawn up a comprehensive Members of this unique organisation share principles plan for protecting churches and Christian areas in of democracy, rule of law and similar legal systems, Baghdad and other governorates. Furthermore the which provide solid foundations to conduct business president of Iraq announced the formation of a committee and have shown to bring trade advantages. of Christian affairs to look at conditions for Christians in Iraq. We consider these to be positive steps. Indonesia Question Iraq: Camp Ashraf Question Asked by Lord Patten Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the reported attacks by Islamists To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment on (a) Christian churches in Java, and (b) on members they have made of the threat of an imminent attack of the Ahmadiyah sect, in Indonesia. [HL10653] by Iraqi government forces on Camp Ashraf; whether they have raised this matter with American Command The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth in the area; and what reassurances they have sought Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Indonesia has made from the Government ofIraq. [HL10755] much progress in protecting human rights over the past 13 years. However, despite progress on a broad The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth range of human rights issues, we are concerned about Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We remain concerned a rise in the number of violent incidents targeted about the situation at Camp Ashraf, particularly in against religious minorities in 2011. We continue to light of events on 8 April and statements made by the stress to the Government of Indonesia that if there is Government of Iraq that they will close the camp by credible evidence of wrongdoing, it should be investigated the end of 2011. We have urged the Government of and any perpetrators brought to justice. We regularly Iraq to refrain from violence and to work with the raise freedom of religion issues with the Government camp leadership to find a peaceful solution to the of Indonesia and keep in close contact with representatives issue. We will continue to do this. of the religious minority groups most affected to discuss their concerns. US officials in Iraq are fully aware of the situation at Camp Ashraf. We remain in close contact with them and other international partners. Iraq Questions Israel and Palestine Asked by Lord Touhig Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate Asked by Lord Hylton they have made of the numbers of Christians in Iraq in (a) 2002, and (b) 2010. [HL10719] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will seek access for the International Committee of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the Red Cross to (a) Corporal G Shalit and any Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): It is difficult to other detainees in Gaza, and (b) Palestinian prisoners provide accurate population figures for Iraq. The last and detainees in Israel. [HL10766] credible census held in Iraq was in 1987. However, we have seen reports which indicate that in 2002 there The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth were between 800,000 and 1,000,000 Christians living Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We regularly hold in Iraq. By 2010, the numbers were estimated at 400,000. discussions through our embassy in Tel Aviv about the We assess that a large percentage of these numbers release of Gilad Shalit with other EU and UN partners. have fled to neighbouring states, most notably Syria, Most recently, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan. However, again, it is State, my honourable friend Alistair Burt, met with difficult to provide accurate refugee figures for the Gilad Shalit’s father during his recent visit to the region. region. We continue to call for Hamas to release Gilad WA 187 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 188

Shalit unconditionally. We consider it unacceptable Middle East that the International Committee of the Red Cross is denied access to him. It is unacceptable that he has Question been held for five years without any Red Cross Asked by Lord Touhig access. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what On the fifth anniversary of his capture the Secretary representations they have made to Governments in of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my the Middle East about prejudice and discrimination right honourable friend the Member for Richmond against Christians in the Middle East. [HL10718] (Yorks) (Mr Hague) released a statement and Alistair Burt released a video message calling for Shalit’s immediate and unconditional release. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government The UK consistently raises our concern where are greatly concerned about those who are denied appropriate about human rights abuses carried out by the right to freedom of religion or belief. We condemn Israelis including the Israeli defence forces. These include all instances of violence and discrimination against concerns about the use of legislation and detention in individuals and groups because of their faith or belief, the Occupied Palestinian Territories, in particular wherever they occur or whatever the religion of the concerning children. Minister for the Middle East and individual or group concerned. We, together with North Africa, Alistair Burt, raised these with the international partners, regularly make clear to Israeli Minister of Justice recently when he visited Governments across the region the importance we Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. We place on promoting cultural and religious tolerance consistently raise the importance of Israel adhering to and on eliminating all legal provisions and policies all of its international obligations. which discriminate against different religious communities. Asked by Baroness Tonge We will continue to make these representations. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of Israel’s use of administrative Monetary Policy Committee detention, including that of children; and what Question representations they have made to the Government Asked by Lord Myners ofIsrael regarding the indefinite detention of 250 Palestinian citizens. [HL10850] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Lord Sassoon on 6 April (Official Report, col. 252), whether, in setting the inflation Lord Howell of Guildford: The UK is concerned target for the Monetary Policy Committee, they about the number of children currently being held in will in future exclude factors which the Monetary Israeli prisons. We raise our concerns with the Israeli Policy Committee feels it has no capacity to influence. Government about the application of due process and [HL10912] the treatment of Palestinian detainees, including where children are involved, on a frequent basis. Most recently, The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord our ambassador in Tel Aviv has raised the issue of Sassoon): The Chancellor confirmed at Budget 2011 Israel’s treatment of Palestinian children with Education that price stability shall be defined as 2 per cent Minister Saar and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs’s inflation, as measured by the 12-month increase in the Principal Legal Advisor Daniel Taub. My honourable consumer prices index. friend Alistair Burt raised this during his recent visit to the region. The noble Baroness may be interested to hear that National Insurance alongside our existing projects, our consulate-general Questions in Jerusalem has recently secured funding to fund the Asked by Lord Laird UK Bar Committee for Human Rights to come to the Occupied Palestinian Territories in September 2011 to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what they research a report about the treatment of children estimate to be the total annual national insurance arrested and detained in the Israeli military court contributions not charged to seconded workers on system. intra-company transfers and their employers because We will continue to monitor the situation with regard of the 52-week exemption in regulation 145 of the to all Palestinian prisoners, including parliamentarians, Social Security (Contributions) Regulations 2001; in Israeli prisons. We call on the Israeli Government to and how many such employees obtained visas for take immediate action to ensure that all cases are admission to the United Kingdom last year. reviewed by a court in accordance with fair procedures, [HL10829] and that detainees’ rights are upheld, particularly with regards to fair trial and family visits. All Palestinian The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord prisoners should have access to a fair trial, and Israel Sassoon): I refer the noble Lord to the Answers I gave should ensure that it acts always in accordance with him on 16 November 2010 (col. WA196) and 2 December international law. We shall continue to raise our concerns 2010 (col. WA 484), which explain why non-European with the Israeli authorities and issue statements when Economic Area workers are allowed a 52-week exclusion appropriate. from national insurance contributions. WA 189 Written Answers[13 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 190

Workers from countries outside the European three further universities during 2011. In addition, a Economic Area, with which the UK has no bilateral letter of understanding outlining the programme’s agreements, may benefit from a 52-week exclusion objectives for the next three years was signed with the from national insurance contributions, by virtue of DPRK Commission of Education in June 2011. Regulation 145(2) or (3) of the Social Security (Contributions) Regulations 2001, provided they meet the statutory conditions. The current exclusion is designed Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 to keep temporary visiting workers, students and Question apprentices out of the UK social security scheme. Information on the amount of national insurance Asked by Baroness Hollis of Heigham contributions (NICs) foregone due to this exemption To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of is not available. An estimate of the number of such the Olympic tickets allocated to the Department for workers is also not available. It would add unnecessarily Culture, Media and Sport are allocated to the to the burdens on businesses and be inconsistent with Department’s Olympic committee; and how many the current approach to other exemptions and disregards are allocated for use by Department for Culture, that apply to NICs, to require employers to send Media and Sport officials. [HL10841] information to HM Revenue and Customs about this exemption. Baroness Garden of Frognal: There is no departmental Asked by Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts Olympic committee. Around 300 tickets have been allocated to Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many for Culture, Media and Sport/Government Olympic national insurance numbers there are. [HL10959] executive officials. These will be paid for by the staff members. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The latest available figures (Feb 2011) shows a total of Pastor Yousef Nadarkhani 83.36 million national insurance number (NINo) records Question on the department’s Customer Information System Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool (CIS). This includes NINos of people known to be living abroad and 19.63 million NINos relating to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what deceased persons. representations they have made about the death Once a NINo is allocated it needs to remain on the sentence for apostasy imposed on Pastor Yousef department’s computer system. This is because the Nadarkhani by the Iranian Supreme Court. NINo provides a permanent numerical link between [HL10747] the individual and their national insurance contribution record, which determines entitlement to contributory The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth benefits and state pension. In respect of deceased Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are aware of individuals, a partner may make a claim for a contributory reports that Pastor Nadarkhani’s sentence to death benefit, which is dependent on the contribution record for apostasy has been annulled by the Supreme Court of the deceased. of Iran and the case has been returned to the district court. If true, this is a positive development in Pastor Nadarkhani’s case, though we maintain our belief North Korea that Pastor Nadarkhani has no case to answer for and Question call for his release. We have spoken to the Iranian authorities in Tehran, and the Iranian embassy in Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool London to seek clarification of Pastor Nadarkhani’s status, and look forward to receiving a response soon. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the impact and value of the British Council’s English Language programme in North Pensions Korea; and what steps they will take to prevent the Questions programme from being scaled down or ended as a result of expenditure cuts. [HL10665] Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth they have made of the percentage of employees Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The British Council’s who are members of workplace pension schemes in English language training programme in the Democratic the public sector and private sector respectively; People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) has had a very and what are the current requirements on membership positive impact on the levels of English proficiency of a pension scheme. [HL10643] in the country and attitudes towards the United Kingdom. The programme—which supports teaching, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, teacher training and development, and curriculum Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): In development—has now been running in three universities 2010, 36 per cent of private sector employees were over the past 10 years. Rather than scaling down members of workplace pension schemes. This represents activity, there are plans to expand the programme to 6.6 million employee jobs. WA 191 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 192

In 2010, 84 per cent of public sector employees investigation by the police, the FCO will request a were members of workplace pension schemes. This waiver of the diplomat’s immunity from the diplomatic represents 6.2 million employee jobs. mission concerned on behalf of the police. Failure to The current requirements on membership of a pension provide a waiver may result in a request to the mission scheme are that an employer with five or more employees for withdrawal of the diplomat. In 2010 there were has to provide access to a pension for their employees. two cases involving allegations of mistreatment of a There is no requirement however for an employee to domestic worker in a diplomatic household. be a member of a pension scheme. In accordance with the Vienna Convention on From 2012, new employer duties will start to be Diplomatic Relations 1961 (VCDR) foreign diplomats introduced. After the new requirements are fully in accredited in the UK are entitled to employ domestic place a minimum of 8 per cent of qualifying earnings workers. Under Article 41 (1) of the Vienna Convention will be contributed to a pension unless an employee on Diplomatic Relations it is the duty of all diplomats chooses to opt out. At least 3 per cent of that minimum “to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving is expected to be contributed by the employer. state”. This applies to the terms and conditions of These changes are estimated to increase the proportion employment for all domestic staff. The Foreign and of employees making pension contributions with Commonwealth Office (FCO) regularly reminds all 5-8 million newly participating, or saving more, in foreign missions based in the UK of their obligations workplace pensions. under the law, most recently in February 2011. Asked by Lord Laird While the United States State Department report does raise concerns about the issue of diplomatic To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate domestic workers in the UK, it also acknowledges they have made of the percentage of males and “the UK’s continued work to vigorously investigate females who are members of workplace pension and prosecute trafficking offenders”. It notes the schemes in the public sector; what are the rules Government’s funding to identify and protect victims relating to such employees and pension scheme and their sustained partnerships with civil society to membership; and what is their assessment of the improve its anti-trafficking efforts in 2010. The UK’s reasons for eligible staff not being members. freely available information allowed non-governmental [HL10644] organisations to make comprehensive assessments of the UK’s anti-trafficking efforts. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): HM Treasury is responsible for overall public Public Toilets service pensions policy but the relevant department leads on individual schemes, including access rules, Question membership and take-up. Asked by Viscount Waverley Scheme-specific breakdowns of membership by gender To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether public will vary from scheme to scheme but an overview, lavatories designated for the disabled are for the based on the annual survey of hours and earnings exclusive use of disabled persons; if so, whether 2010, is that active membership of public service pension there is any guidance on the circumstances under schemes is 33 per cent male and 67 per cent female. which they may be used by non-disabled people; and whether RADAR keys are sufficiently widely People Trafficking distributed. [HL10661] Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Asked by Lord Lea of Crondall Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): Under To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their the Equality Act 2010 service providers are required assessment of the findings of the United States not to discriminate against, and to make reasonable State Department report Trafficking in Persons adjustments for, disabled people. Where providing toilet that staff of embassies in London are being denied facilities as part of its services to the public, the usage basic rights. [HL10669] of accessible toilets is a matter for the service provider. No statutory guidance is available to govern the use of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth accessible toilets. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Foreign and Where service providers choose to keep their accessible Commonwealth Office (FCO) condemns illegal activity toilets locked, they are encouraged to join the national by diplomats in the UK. Under the Vienna Convention key scheme, a voluntary scheme run by RADAR. on Diplomatic Relations, those entitled to immunity However, RADAR does not advocate the general fitting are expected to obey the law. of locks to all toilets for disabled people. The FCO treats any allegation of mistreatment of domestic workers in diplomatic households very seriously. Re-export Controls The police investigate allegations that the law has been Question broken by persons entitled to immunity and report the results to the FCO. When an allegation is brought to Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool our attention by the police, we liaise as necessary with To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent the relevant diplomatic mission and the UK Border reports they have received of the operation of re-export Agency to work for an appropriate response. In the control provisions in those countries that have enacted case of an allegation of mistreatment requiring further legislation. [HL10875] WA 193 Written Answers[13 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 194

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, There has been no recent assessment of the level of Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness food growing in schools. While the Government support Wilcox): Discussions with EU colleagues on export education outside the classroom, we consider that control policy are ongoing and take place formally individual schools are in the best position to decide within the Council Working Group on Conventional which activities are most relevant for their students. Arms, and informally between member states’ officials involved in strategic export licensing. These discussions have served to confirm our understanding of established Schools: Teachers member state practices on re-export. Question Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass Republic of Ireland: Financial Support To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was Question (a) the total, and (b) the ratio of men to women among primary school teachers in England and Asked by Lord Empey Wales for 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2010, to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the the nearest 2,500. [HL10754] loan of £7 billion to the Republic of Ireland as part of the December 2010 bailout agreement has been The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for drawn down. [HL10842] Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The following table provides the number, ratio and percentage of men to women of qualified teachers in full-time regular teaching The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord service in publicly funded primary schools in England Sassoon): The UK’s bilateral loan to Ireland amounts and Wales in 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2010. to £3.227 billion. The loan cannot be drawn until after Full-time regular qualified teachers in service in publicly funded nursery/primary the approval of the third quarterly review of Ireland’s schools1 by gender. Memorandum of Understanding with the International Coverage England and Wales 2 Monetary Fund and the European Commission. The Years: March 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and November 2010 review is expected to take place in August 2011. 1960 1970 1980 1990 2000 20102

Numbers Saudi Arabia Men 37,500 40,000 45,000 35,000 30,000: 25,000 Question Women 107,500 122,500 152,500 145,000 152,500: 135,000 Men and 142,500 162,500 197,500 177,500 180,000 160,000 Asked by Lord Ahmed Women Ratio of 0.34 0.34 0.30 0.24 0.20: 0.18 men to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they women protect the rights of British citizens working in Percentages Saudi Arabia. [HL10822] Men 25.6 25.1 22.9 19.4 16.3: 15.5 Women 74.4 74.9 77.1 80.6 83.71 84.5 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Men and 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0: 100.0 Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Our publication Women Support for British Nationals Abroad: A Guide sets out Source: Database of Teacher Records (1960 to 2000), and School the help we aim to provide to British nationals who are Workforce Census, (2010). in difficulty overseas. We provide this support in over 1. Figures are for local authority maintained schools for years 180 countries across the world, including Saudi Arabia. 1960 to 2000. Also includes primary age range academies in 2010. 2. 2010 figures exclude Wales. Schools: Cooking and Growing Food Figures are rounded to the nearest 2,500 Question Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Taiwan Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the level of practical food experience Asked by Lord Northbrook in schools including cooking skills and food growing; To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their and what plans they have to increase it. [HL10862] assessment of the proposal for signing the Economic Co-operation Agreement between the European The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Union and Taiwan. [HL10836] Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): Cooking is currently compulsory in primary schools at key stages 1 and 2. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth While the Government consider that practical cooking Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We value the strong in schools is important, we do not plan to make any trade links we have with Taiwan and are keen to changes to the statutory national curriculum which enhance them. The Government support active would place new burdens on schools while the current consideration of practical measures to strengthen trade review of the national curriculum is under way. between the EU and Taiwan. WA 195 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 196

Taxation political parties to participate in Turkey’s democratic process, and ensure that the proposed new constitution Question enjoys the broadest possible consensus in Parliament Asked by Lord Laird and among Turkish citizens. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they Asked by Lord Hylton intend to put the recommendation of the Office To ask Her Majesty’s Government what of Tax Simplification to remove the tax relief representations the Ankara representatives of the allowed by Regulation 145(3) of the Social Security European Commission, together with the ambassadors (Contributions) Regulations 2001 into effect; and of the European Union states, have made to Turkish what is the annual net cost to the Government of political parties about avoiding boycotts of the this national insurance contribution exemption. Grand National Assembly and starting the work of [HL10828] constitutional revision. [HL10834] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): The Government announced the removal of Lord Howell of Guildford: There have been no this relief at Budget 2011 and are currently consulting formal EU demarches or council conclusions on avoiding on the timing for this removal. A consultation document the boycott of the Grand National Assembly and the was issued in May 2011 and responses are due by the start of constitutional revision. The EU Commission end of August 2011. continues to maintain dialogue with political parties Data on the net cost of the exemption are not including those that have undertaken a boycott. Our available, although given Immigration Rules, the cost ambassador also met the BDP (Peace and Democracy is unlikely to be significant. The consultation gives an Party) on 28 June 2011 to discuss the boycott. We opportunity for groups affected by this exemption to encourage all political parties to participate in Turkey’s provide details of how they are impacted. democratic process and ensure that the proposed new constitution enjoys the broadest possible consensus. However, the legal basis under which the Turkish Turkey Members of Parliament serve is a matter for the Questions relevant legislative authorities. Asked by Lord Patten To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Turks and Caicos Islands they have made of the recent decision by Turkey’s High Election Board to bar from taking his Question Parliamentary seat Mr Hatip Dicle of the Peace Asked by Lord Ashcroft and Democracy Party, and the subsequent Kurdish boycott of Parliament. [HL10652] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth on 30 June (WA 482), who, other than the official Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are aware of the delegation, met Ministers and Officials in the week decision by the High Election Board and Turkish commencing 13 June to discuss the new constitution courts regarding Hatip Dicle’s participation in the for the Turks and Caicos Islands. [HL10739] Turkish Parliament, and are following the situation surrounding boycotts of Parliament by opposition parties and politicians closely. It is not general UK The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Government practice to comment on individual judicial Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Mr Floyd Seymour processes, but we expect high legal and judicial standards and Mr E Jay Saunders accompanied the People’s to be observed. The legal basis under which Turkish Democratic Movement delegate, and Mr Royal Robinson Members of Parliament serve is a matter for the and Mr Beryn Duncanson accompanied the delegate relevant legislative authorities. We also encourage all from the Progressive National Party. Wednesday 13 July 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan: Roulement...... 59 Intelligence and Security Committee: Annual Report...... 67

Animals in Scientific Procedures: Statistics...... 61 Migration ...... 67

Armed Forces: Allowances ...... 62 Non-departmental Public Bodies...... 69

Child Protection ...... 63 Prison and Probation Services ...... 70 Elections: Registration...... 64 Railways: Crossrail ...... 72 Housing: Squatters ...... 65 Ratcliffe-on-Soar Power Station: Inquiry...... 73 Identity and Passport Service: Annual Report and Accounts ...... 66 Serious Organised Crime Agency: Annual Report and Accounts ...... 74 Independent Safeguarding Authority: Annual Report and Accounts...... 66 UK Border Agency: Annual Report and Accounts...... 74

Wednesday 13 July 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Commemoration...... 173 Homelessness...... 183

Aviation: Passenger Duty...... 173 Housing ...... 183

Bahrain...... 173 India and Pakistan...... 184

Bank of England: Financial Policy Committee...... 174 Indonesia ...... 185

Banking ...... 174 Iraq...... 185

Banking: Afghanistan...... 175 Iraq: Camp Ashraf...... 186

Banking: Northern Rock ...... 175 Israel and Palestine ...... 186

Businesses: Red Tape ...... 176 Middle East ...... 188

Consumer Markets Authority...... 177 Monetary Policy Committee...... 188

Cornwall: Stannary Law ...... 177 National Insurance ...... 188

Debt...... 178 North Korea ...... 189

European Parliament ...... 178 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012...... 190

Food: Waste...... 179 Pastor Yousef Nadarkhani ...... 190

Government Departments: Expenditure ...... 179 Pensions...... 190

Government Departments: Research and Data...... 180 People Trafficking...... 191

Government Departments: Scientific Advisers...... 180 Public Toilets ...... 192

Health: Orthopaedics...... 181 Re-export Controls ...... 192

Healthcare: Costs...... 181 Republic of Ireland: Financial Support ...... 193

Higher Education: Sciences...... 182 Saudi Arabia...... 193 Col. No. Col. No. Schools: Cooking and Growing Food...... 193 Taxation...... 195

Schools: Teachers...... 194 Turkey...... 195

Taiwan ...... 194 Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 196 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL10082]...... 180 [HL10790]...... 180

[HL10615]...... 180 [HL10822]...... 193

[HL10620]...... 175 [HL10827]...... 176

[HL10637]...... 181 [HL10828]...... 195

[HL10643]...... 190 [HL10829]...... 188

[HL10644]...... 191 [HL10834]...... 196

[HL10650]...... 178 [HL10836]...... 194

[HL10651]...... 173 [HL10841]...... 190

[HL10652]...... 195 [HL10842]...... 193

[HL10653]...... 185 [HL10850]...... 187

[HL10657]...... 182 [HL10861]...... 179

[HL10658]...... 182 [HL10862]...... 193

[HL10661]...... 192 [HL10864]...... 174

[HL10665]...... 189 [HL10865]...... 174 [HL10867]...... 175 [HL10669]...... 191 [HL10875]...... 192 [HL10693]...... 181 [HL10885]...... 183 [HL10709]...... 177 [HL10887]...... 184 [HL10718]...... 188 [HL10888]...... 184 [HL10719]...... 185 [HL10889]...... 178 [HL10720]...... 186 [HL10890]...... 179 [HL10726]...... 177 [HL10892]...... 179 [HL10730]...... 175 [HL10900]...... 173 [HL10739]...... 196 [HL10901]...... 176

[HL10747]...... 190 [HL10912]...... 188

[HL10754]...... 194 [HL10945]...... 173

[HL10755]...... 186 [HL10946]...... 173

[HL10766]...... 186 [HL10959]...... 189

[HL10771]...... 184 [HL11008]...... 183 Volume 729 Wednesday No. 182 13 July 2011

CONTENTS

Wednesday 13 July 2011 Questions EU: Common Fisheries Policy ...... 713 Energy: Fuel Poverty ...... 716 Devolution: England...... 718 Immigration: Advisory Service...... 720 Phone Hacking Statement...... 723 Mull of Kintyre Review Statement...... 735 European Union Bill Commons Amendments and Reasons ...... 744 Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill Report (4th Day)...... 794 Grand Committee Education Bill Committee (6th Day) ...... GC 303 Written Statements...... WS 59 Written Answers...... WA 173