Tuesday Volume 531 12 July 2011 No. 186

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 12 July 2011

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services and exports and subtracts the price of UK House of Commons imports, it gives a more appropriate overall measure of inflation. Tuesday 12 July 2011 Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend welcome the increase in the NHS West Sussex The House met at half-past Two o’clock budget of £35 million this year, which, coupled with the provisions of the Health and Social Care Bill, means PRAYERS that we will have far greater patient choice in our local area?

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr Lansley: Yes, I do indeed welcome that. We all know that last year, this year and in future years, increases in the NHS budget in real terms will not be the Oral Answers to Questions kind of real-terms increases we saw in the past, but they will be real-terms increases. What we are already seeing in the NHS—we saw it last year—is that with a 2.2% increase in cash spending, there is none the less an HEALTH ability to sustain, and in many respects improve, performance.

The Secretary of State was asked— John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): In spite of the spin, the truth is that the Prime Minister’s personal NHS Funding promise to give the NHS a real rise in funding is being broken. It is not just how much that counts; it is how 1. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What arrangements well the money is spent. Today is one year to the very are in place to ensure increased funding for the NHS day that the Health Secretary launched the Government’s during the comprehensive spending review period. plans to “liberate” the NHS. He told the House: [65106] “we will phase out the top-down management hierarchy”—[Official Report, 12 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 663.] The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): He said that he would reduce “the number and cost” of We will increase NHS funding in real terms in each year NHS-related quangos, so why is he setting up the new of this Parliament. Compared to the level of expenditure national commissioning board, set to employ 3,500 people, in the national health service in the last financial year, when even its chief executive says that it the resources available to the NHS will increase by £12.5 billion by the end of the spending review period. “could become the greatest quango in the sky we have seen”. The budget available for the NHS in the financial year Why is the right hon. Gentleman setting up more than 2011-12 is 3.9% higher than spend in the previous year, 500 public bodies in the NHS when 161 do the job now, 2010-11. and why are the Government wasting precious NHS funding on the biggest reorganisation in history, when it Karl McCartney: Can my right hon. Friend give me could and should be spent on patient care? any examples of how the increased funding this Government have promised here in England is, unlike Mr Lansley: Since the election we have reduced the what is happening in Wales, delivering better care for number of managers in the NHS by more than 4,000 and our NHS services? increased the number of doctors by more than 2,000. The NHS commissioning board—I did not hear from Mr Lansley: Yes, I can indeed do that. We are committed the right hon. Gentleman whether he supports it—is to real-terms increases in the NHS budget in England. part of our strategy to give the NHS not only local According to an analysis by the King’s Fund, the Welsh clinical leadership but national leadership through it. Assembly Government—a Labour-led Welsh Government The functions covered by the board are currently undertaken —are going to reduce the NHS budget by 8.3% in real by something approaching 8,000 staff; the number delivering terms by 2013-14 in comparison with 2010-11. That those functions in future will go down to 3,500 staff, so might be one reason why it is already the case that in the reduction in administration will be dramatic. Wales, 26.4% of patients in April 2011 waited more than 18 weeks for treatment. John Healey: We had plans to reduce bureaucracy, which were published, and we also said that the Government Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Will should keep Labour’s waiting time guarantees for patients, the Secretary of State confirm that his definition of a which the Health Secretary told the House a year ago real-terms increase is based on a 2.9% figure? Will he today were “unjustified” targets, which he would remove. also confirm that the retail price index actually stands The Prime Minister has now promised to keep waiting at 5%, so any claim that he is increasing the NHS times low, but after one wasted year of NHS reorganisation budget in real terms is a complete and total con? by the right hon. Gentleman’s Government, an extra 25,000 patients a month are waiting more than four Mr Lansley: I think that it has been conventional hours in accident and emergency departments, an extra over many years for the calculation of real terms in 12,000 patients a month are waiting more than six public accounting to use the GDP deflator. Given that weeks for tests, and an extra 2,300 patients a month are it includes the prices of investment goods, Government waiting more than 18 weeks to get into hospital for the 143 Oral Answers12 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 144 treatment they need. The NHS deputy chief executive Paul Burstow: That important question must be partly has called the rise in long waiting times this year addressed by the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues in the “unacceptable”. Does the Health Secretary agree? Welsh Assembly, but one of the issues raised by the Law Commission’s recommendations on law reform that we Mr Lansley: As we said in the NHS constitution, we must address is that of ordinary residence tests to do not intend patients to be waiting for more than ensure that people have access to the right care at the 18 weeks. [HON.MEMBERS: “They are!”] The April figures right time and in the right place. show that we met the operational standard, which is that more than 90% of admitted patients and more than Ms Stuart: The Minister said that he was engaging 95% of non-admitted patients should be treated within fully with stakeholders. Does that include the Treasury, 18 weeks. The right hon. Gentleman’s analysis of waiting given reports that the Dilnot proposals are being strangled times did not include the fact that the average time for at birth? which patients waited for treatment in April was 7.7 weeks, down from 8.4 weeks in May 2010. The average time for Paul Burstow: Cross-government discussions take place which patients wait is being reduced. about any matter that requires legislation and funding—and of course the Treasury plays its part in those discussions.

Funding Care and Support Roberta Blackman-Woods: Does the Minister agree that the Government need to act quickly on the 2. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): What assessment commission’s report, not least because the Southern he has made of the conclusions and recommendations Cross situation, which is affecting many people in my of the recent report by the Commission on Funding of constituency, has shown that the current model, which Care and Support. [65107] involves relying largely on private care, is simply not sustainable? 7. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the conclusions and recommendations Paul Burstow: We will return to that important matter of the recent report by the Commission on Funding of later, with the urgent question. However, we must examine the position of Southern Cross and the business model Care and Support. [65112] that underpinned it very carefully, in order to understand how such a model was agreed to under the arrangements 11. Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): for regulating care providers that existed before the What assessment he has made of the conclusions and establishment of the Care Quality Commission. recommendations of the recent report by the Commission on Funding of Care and Support. [65118] Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): It is now more than a decade since Sir Derek Wanless first identified 15. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): a funding gap in long-term care for the elderly. I welcome What assessment he has made of the conclusions and the Dilnot report, but will the Government act quickly recommendations of the recent report by the to establish a partnership arrangement enabling private Commission on Funding of Care and Support. [65123] money contributed through insurance to be added to some public money, so that that funding gap can be The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul filled? Burstow): As the Secretary of State said in his statement to the House last week, the Government welcome the Paul Burstow: The answer to the first part of the right report of the Commission on Funding of Care and hon. Gentleman’s question is that the Government are Support and will consider its recommendations carefully. already committed, through the spending review, to the provision of an additional £7.2 billion for social care Bill Esterson: The Government may say that they over the next four years, which will involve an unprecedented welcome the report, but can the Minister explain why transfer of resources from the NHS to social care. As the White Paper on social care will now be published in for the second part of his question, the Dilnot report spring 2012 rather than in December 2011, as the makes many recommendations, and the Government commission’s report recommends? Do the Government will work through them and present their conclusions want it to be kicked into the long grass because of next year. Treasury interference? Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): The question of who benefits from the proposals, and by how much, Paul Burstow: The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. depends on the assumptions made about the potential The Government’s approach is to have discussions with maximum outlay on care home residents under the the official Opposition and to engage fully with stakeholders existing arrangements. That may change as the length from Age UK, Carers UK and many other organisations, of time for which people live in care increases. Does the not just about funding reform—which is an important Minister accept that if the implementation of the proposals part of our reform of social care—but about questions is to be progressive, both now and in the future, the of quality and law reform. Government will need to test, and keep under review, their assumptions about the longest likely duration of Chris Ruane: My constituency in central north Wales care in homes? contains a high percentage of pensioners, many of whom come from the industrial cities of the north-west Paul Burstow: That is an important point. One of the and Birmingham. What protocols exist to deal with factors that will change those assumptions is the extent cross-border issues involving pensioners’ care? of our effectiveness in preventing and postponing the 145 Oral Answers12 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 146 need for such services. “A vision for adult social care”, The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): which we published last year, emphasised the need for The first NHS outcomes framework includes a number more investment in preventive measures. That is why we of outcomes relevant to people with cancer. For example, have provided, and continue to provide, additional resources domain 1, on preventing people from dying prematurely, for reablement, which not only does the individuals includes progress in improving one-year and five-year concerned a great deal of good but saves money for survival rates for breast, lung and colorectal cancers. A social services authorities. number of indicators will also be relevant to patients with cancer, such as health-related quality of life for Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Does my people with long-term conditions, and improving the hon. Friend agree that in the months before the White experience of care for people at the end of their lives. Paper is published it will be important to take time to Clinical commissioning groups will be held to account build the necessary all-party cross-House support for for their contributions to improving those national outcomes long-lasting reform? through the commissioning outcomes framework. Paul Burstow: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and the exchanges on the Secretary of State’s statement Mr Baron: The all-party group on cancer and others last week made it plain that we are committed to having lobbied for a greater focus on outcomes, but the one-year those discussions and working to secure a long-lasting and five-year cancer survival rates may now be less reform. That is the only way in which such a reform can statistically robust, as CCGs cover smaller population secure the necessary changes, both in law and funding, sizes than primary care trusts. Will the Government for this country. therefore give added priority to the excellent work of the National Cancer Intelligence Network in producing Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): The Southern a set of evidence-based process measures to complement, Cross crisis is causing extreme anxiety to the people not replace, other evidence so that CCGs can be held who live in the homes, including the one at Hopton accountable? Mews in Armley, in my constituency. How will the Government ensure that local authorities and the Care Mr Lansley: The House will know of my hon. Friend’s Quality Commission have the necessary resources to consistent support, through the all-party group, for oversee the transfer of homes to their new operators? patients with cancer. I entirely agree that a number of proxy measures and process measures will be relevant in Paul Burstow: I shall certainly elaborate on how we the context of the commissioning outcomes framework. are doing that in greater detail later. For some months There may be measures that are attributable to CCGs we have been working with the landlords, the lenders individually in some respects. For example, the quality and Southern Cross, and making sure that local authorities of life of people living with long-term conditions, to are fully prepared for any likely contingency and the which I referred, would be relevant to a small population. CQC is ready to deal with re-registrations, should that For other measures, however, it may be appropriate for become necessary. the CCGs to be held to account at the level of, for example, a cancer network, using cancer registry data. Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab): The Minister of State has told us that one of the reasons why the publication of the White Paper has Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and been delayed is to allow cross-party talks, so I wonder Hillsborough) (Lab): The considerable improvement whether he can help us: when will the meeting between and focus on breast, lung and bowel cancer is very the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the welcome, but groups campaigning on prostate and ovarian Leader of the Opposition take place? cancer are extremely worried about both the lack of update guidance and the failure to reverse premature Paul Burstow: I am surprised that the hon. Lady does death, especially in ovarian cancer, over the last 30 not know. As I understand it, there is a date in all three years. Has the Secretary of State anything new to tell us people’s diaries, but it is not for me to share that date. about the direction in these areas? Although we do need to have cross-party talks between the leaders and the health spokespeople involved, we Mr Lansley: The right hon. Gentleman will doubtless should also look back and draw some lessons from the be aware that we published a quality standard for royal commission on long-term care. What surprises me ovarian cancer, and that the Minister of State, Department is that when that report was published by the right hon. of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), Cheam (Paul Burstow), published the outcomes strategy all that was offered was a debate—not a debate that the for cancer, which will have been relevant to many of the Government would lead, but a debate that would take issues to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. I continue place across the country. We are still waiting for the end to look forward to the results of a major trial on of that debate. This Government have a timetable and a screening for ovarian cancer, but I am afraid that I commitment to engage. anticipate that we shall not be able to see the results and recommendations for nearly three years. Cancer Outcomes (Accountability) GP Services 3. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): What arrangements he plans to put in place to ensure clinical commissioning groups are held accountable for 4. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) their performance in respect of cancer outcomes. (LD): How many 24-hour GP services are in operation; [65108] and if he will make a statement. [65109] 147 Oral Answers12 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 148

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Does Burns): We are not aware of any GP practices that offer my right hon. Friend agree that although there is a cost services on a 24-hour basis. in making these changes, it will have been paid back within two years, and that £5 billion a year will be Simon Hughes: Will the Minister confirm that the available to be invested in front-line services and making Government would have no objection, and would not sure that people in South Staffordshire get the best put any barrier in the way, if Guy’s and St Thomas’ possible from their health service? NHS Foundation Trust and the local Southwark services wished to set up a 24-hour service at Guy’s hospital, Mr Burns: My hon. Friend makes an extremely important with the collaboration of the local community? point, because not only are his figures correct, but thereafter until the end of the decade there will be Mr Burns: As the right hon. Gentleman will know, savings of £1.7 billion a year, on current projections. the local NHS has responsibility for commissioning Every single penny of that will be reinvested in front-line local primary care services, and in doing so it must take services for patients. into account the results of the local population and their needs. If he is working with the hospitals and Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) organisations that he has mentioned and he has some (Lab): The Minister continues to insist that his constructive ideas that they are going to consider, I too reorganisation will result in savings that will be reinvested would be personally interested to hear from him about in patient care. Yet even before we have the impact how they envisage doing things. assessment for the changes in the legislation, we know, as will Members across this House, that on a daily basis Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): What has happened people are leaving primary care trusts with their redundancy to the Labour Government’s guarantee that everybody money. That totals £800 million and upwards, and it has should be entitled to see their GP within 24 hours, and not been costed. We also know that the Royal College also be able to book an appointment more than 48 hours of General Practitioners has said that we will have gone ahead? Will the Minister publish a full performance from having 163 statutory organisations to having 521. table for GPs, so that the public can make an informed Are not the costs of this misconceived car crash of a choice? reorganisation spiralling out of control?

Mr Burns: As the right hon. Gentleman will know, Mr Burns: The reality is that the hon. Lady does not the access measures concerning people being able to see understand, or will not accept, the figures published in their GP within a reasonable period of time are set out the impact assessment. What she does not like is the fact in the quality and outcomes framework. The evidence that by the end of this Parliament there will be savings that I have seen certainly shows that our approach is of about £5 billion, and thereafter of £1.7 billion until generally working very well, although there are variations the end of the decade. That will all be reinvested in in different parts of the country, especially London, front-line services. The hon. Lady will not accept, and where I believe there is scope for improvement. wishes to misrepresent to members of the public, the NHS Reorganisation resulting benefits in improved and enhanced patient care. Dentistry 5. Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): What discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the cost to the public purse of NHS reorganisation arising 6. Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): from the proposed changes to the Health and Social What steps he has taken to increase access to NHS Care Bill. [65110] dentistry since May 2010. [65111]

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): Burns): The Treasury had sight of the impact assessment I am pleased to be able to tell my hon. Friend that the published alongside the Health and Social Care Bill, number of people with access to NHS dentistry has which estimated savings of about £5 billion by 2014-15, increased by nearly three quarters of a million over the and £1.7 billion a year thereafter. A revised impact past year. assessment will be published as the Bill progresses. Mark Lancaster: I am grateful to my right hon. Valerie Vaz: I thank the Minister for his helpful Friend for that answer. In Milton Keynes in recent years answer. Given that there are to be new structures—the we have seen greater access to dentistry. One area of NHS commissioning board, the clinical senates, the particular concern is access to dentistry for children, so local commissioning groups and Public Health England— may I press my right hon. Friend on how exactly he will will there be new money for them, or will the money address that problem? come out of the allocated budget? Mr Lansley: I agree with my hon. Friend. We have Mr Burns: I thank the hon. Lady for her helpful made it very clear that, contrary to the practice of the question. As she will appreciate, the money will come previous Government, we are not looking for dentists out of the existing allocations, but what she needs to to deny access to NHS dentistry to children whose understand is that as a result of this, and as a result of parents are not registered with them. Alongside increasing improving and cutting out wasteful inefficiencies and access to dentistry as a whole, we intend specifically to bureaucracy, we will actually be saving significant sums. secure increased access for children to NHS dentistry. Administration will be cut by a third, so that we can That will be even more the case in the pilots that we will invest all the savings in front-line services. start this month, which are specifically intended to 149 Oral Answers12 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 150 secure a more preventive approach to dentistry, which Mark Pawsey: I have been contacted by a constituent maintains good oral health. That is especially important who is a patient at a practice in Rugby that uses telephony for children. based on 084 numbers. My constituent is concerned about the additional charges incurred by patients when Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Does contacting the surgery by phone, particularly by mobile the Secretary of State not understand that there has phone. Will the Minister update the House on the work been real progress with the Tameside and Glossop of the Department in ensuring that GP surgeries do not primary care trust and their “access, booking and choice” use such numbers unnecessarily? facility, which guarantees access to NHS dentistry when they require it for anyone not already registered with an Anne Milton: I thank my hon. Friend for raising this NHS dentist? Does he not understand that there are matter. I understand that five GP surgeries in NHS real concerns that with his reorganisation, and without Warwickshire use 084 numbers, and that the primary that priority focus by the primary care trust, those care trust has been assured that patients using those advances may be lost? numbers are not charged more than the cost of using an equivalent local number. It is absolutely clear that there Mr Lansley: On the contrary, with the progressive is no distinction between landlines, mobiles or payphones. transfer of responsibilities to the NHS commissioning The directions are very clear that patients should not board there will be much more consistency in contracting expect to be charged any more. for access to NHS dentistry, which at the moment is often a lottery in different places across the country, Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): I, similarly, with the amounts paid per unit of dental activity varying have three GP practices that use those telephone numbers. dramatically between neighbouring practices. The new I have made extensive contact with my local PCT about pilots are intended to achieve something that was not this, but it did not seem to know what to do. Can the achieved under either of the two previous dental contracts, Minister assure us that the clear advice she is giving by securing a much stronger preventive approach based here today will be distributed around the health service, on capitation and registration for dentists. It has been so that we can put an end to this? welcomed by the dental profession and it promises a great deal for a new contract. Anne Milton: The Department is very clear, and the general medical services contract makes it very clear, Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): You will be that GPs are not allowed to charge more. There are a aware, Mr Speaker, that I have some slight interest in number of options open to GPs who already have such this subject. Access to NHS dentistry is related to what telephone contracts, such as calling patients back, altering is on offer. Does the Secretary of State agree that with the contract arrangements or, indeed, paying the costs the huge advances in dentistry, we should be reviewing themselves. what is and is not available, and what should or should not be available, from NHS general dental practitioners? Patient Outcomes Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will know that under the new dental contracts, I want to arrive at a point where 9. Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): What steps everybody who wishes to has access to NHS dentistry. I he is taking to improve NHS patient outcomes. [65114] was pleased to see that when we set out the details of the piloting proposal, the chair of the British Dental The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): Association’s general dental practice committee, Dr John I am committed to ensuring that the NHS achieves Milne, said: improved outcomes for patients. The NHS outcomes “we are encouraged that the Department of Health is to begin framework will drive continuous improvement in those testing new ways of delivering care. We are pleased that two outcomes. By way of example, we have made good principles that we believe are particularly important—quality of progress in reducing the number of health care associated care and a continuing care relationship between practitioner and infections. In the year ending March 2011 the number patient—are central to what is being piloted.” of MRSA bloodstream infections decreased by 22% As in other areas, we are moving from a system that and clostridium difficile infections decreased by 15%, simply incentivises activity to one that is much more compared with the year before. Those are key positive focused on quality and outcomes. results in the drive to protect patients from avoidable harm. GPs (Premium Rate Telephone Numbers) Mr Offord: I applaud the Minister for his work in 8. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What guidance his those areas, and I draw attention to the increased work Department issues on the use by GP surgeries of in cancer care, which I also applaud. However, may I premium rate telephone numbers. [65113] ask him to assure the House that he will not lose focus on other areas, such as mental health, and that the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Government will continue to address problems in those (Anne Milton): The Department has amended the general areas, which have such consequences across the country? medical services regulations to prohibit GP practices from using telephone numbers that charge patients more Mr Lansley: I certainly will. Indeed, the Minister of than the equivalent cost of calling a geographical number State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member to contact the NHS. Since April this year, GPs have not for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), and I launched been allowed to use a number that charges patients the outcomes strategy for mental health earlier this more than the cost of an equivalent geographical call. year, in order to make it absolutely clear that across the 151 Oral Answers12 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 152

NHS, and indeed public health, we ensure that mental Older People (Social Care) health services attract the right priority and focus as we develop outcome measures. 12. Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): What estimate he has made of the change in net public Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): The Prime Minister expenditure on older people’s social care since April has promised that waiting times will not rise despite his 2010. [65119] massive NHS reorganisation, but we now know that in May 15,500 patients waited more than six weeks for The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul their diagnostic tests—four times as many as last year—and Burstow): The latest available data on social care expenditure that 1,800 waited more than three months, which is are for 2009-10, when net expenditure on social care for 10 times as many as last year. Average waits for diagnostic older people was £7.5 billion. tests are also up. Does the Minister agree with the Royal College of Physicians that those increased waits, including Stella Creasy: Many of my constituents will have waits for vital tests to diagnose cancer, will harm patient been deeply concerned by the admission of Peter Hay, care: yes or no? the president of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, that nearly £1 billion is being taken out Mr Lansley: No, we have met the standard that of social care budgets following cuts to local government, patients should not wait longer than 18 weeks—a 90% and by his warnings about the consequences for provision. standard for admitted patients and 95% for non-admitted When will the Minister deliver interim funding relief, so patients. If I recall correctly, the latest data for diagnostic that patients are not stuck in hospitals because they tests showed that there was a 1.9 week average wait for cannot be discharged, and so that we can be sure that diagnostic tests, which compares with 1.8 weeks in May we will avoid a crisis in social care? last year. On cancer waiting times we have achieved an improvement—up to 96%—in the number of patients Paul Burstow: If the hon. Lady had read on, she who are seen by a specialist within two weeks. The hon. would have found that £700 million of the £1 billion is Lady really needs to go back and talk to her colleagues to be found not through cuts in services, but through in Wales, where 26% of patients wait longer than 18 weeks, efficiency savings, for example through the use of telecare, compared with fewer than 10% of patients here; indeed, which significantly reduces costs, and investment in many patients in Wales wait more than 36 weeks. We reablement services, which save resources and help people have a contrast between a coalition Government in to get back on their feet. That is all in the report that she England who are investing in the health service, with is waving around. When it comes to investment, the improving performance, and a Labour Government in Government have already made clear their commitment Wales who are cutting the NHS budget and seeing through the spending review, and are investing, by the performance decline. end of this Parliament in 2014-15, an additional £2 billion—something that her party did not do when in Health Care Infrastructure Projects government. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): The extra money 10. Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North being given to adult social care should be good news, Ipswich) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to but in Harrow, the council, which is Labour-run, has provide funding for healthcare infrastructure projects. applied the £2.1 million additional funding to redundancies [65117] in general areas, rather than passing it on to the weak and the vulnerable. Will my hon. Friend take action to The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon ensure that the new money provided by the Government Burns): The Department’s capital budget for this spending reaches the people who need it? review period will be higher in real terms than spending in 2010-11. Forecast capital spending in 2010-11 is Paul Burstow: I am absolutely determined to make £4.2 billion and the amount available in 2011-12 is sure that the additional resources that the NHS is £4.4 billion. By 2014-15, the total amount of capital transferring to social care deliver real benefits for people made available since the start of the Parliament will be who need social care services, protect services, and £22.1 billion. allow local authorities to make the right decisions about how they continue to support not just investment in Dr Poulter: Is the Minister as concerned as I am prevention, but those most in need. about the failure of Suffolk primary care trust to act to invest in proper buildings and infrastructure for the Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): It is disappointing Gipping valley practice in Claydon in my constituency? that we will now not see the Government’s White Paper That practice has been forced to treat patients out of a until the spring, but will the Government agree to take portakabin for 15 years now. Will he agree to meet me, forward the commission’s recommendations on national and local doctors and patient groups, to see whether we eligibility criteria and portable care assessments? The can find a solution to the problem? Minister will understand that that is now urgent, given the Southern Cross crisis. Mr Burns: I fully appreciate my hon. Friend’s concerns. As he will appreciate, the matter is primarily for the Paul Burstow: The hon. Lady raises a question about local NHS. If it is any consolation to him, I am advised eligibility; of course, we know from the latest figures in that Suffolk PCT will continue to work with the GP an ADASS survey that the majority of local authorities practice on the issues, but I would be more than happy moved, under Labour, to “substantial” needs being the to see my hon. Friend to discuss the matter further. test for access to social care; that happened on her 153 Oral Answers12 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 154 watch, not this Government’s watch. When it comes Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Can the Minister to portability, the Law Commission has made explain briefly how he has managed to make such recommendations that the Government have to consider, rapid progress in 12 months, given that the previous and yes, we need to look to legislate on that. Administration made no progress whatsoever?

Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The Minister Mr Burns: My hon. Friend has hit on an important was present this morning at the launch of a report on issue. The answer is clarity of purpose and vision on the dementia care by the all-party group on dementia. He part of my right hon. Friend not only to talk the talk, will know that the key recommendation is to shift but to walk the walk and achieve dignity for patients in resources from acute hospital care to more preventive the NHS in England. services in the community. What steps will he take to ensure that that shift really happens, over and above the Hospital-acquired Infections £1 billion that has been allocated, much of which has already been spent by local authorities on plugging the 14. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): gaps caused by other cuts in their budgets? What progress he has made in reducing rates of hospital-acquired infections. [65121] Paul Burstow: As the right hon. Lady was at the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health presentation, she will know that it was also identified (Anne Milton): As the Minister of State, my right hon. that we currently spend about £8 billion on dementia Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), has services, and the Audit Commission identified that we just said, clarity and vision are what is needed. The could save at least £300 million through better use of coalition agreement made it clear that the NHS should preventive and early-intervention services. The Government adopt a zero tolerance approach to all avoidable health have set out a very clear approach. First, we need to care-associated infections, which have caused so many invest in services to provide for earlier diagnosis, because problems for the public over so many years. In 2010-11, that is the best way to plan for dementia. Secondly, we there were just under 1,500 MRSA bloodstream infections. need investment in services in our hospitals that shorten That is a decrease of 22% on the previous year. That the length of stay and deliver good quality. Thirdly, we means that infections are at their lowest level since need care homes with the right training for staff, so that mandatory surveillance was introduced. In the same they can manage dementia and behaviour problems period, there were just under 22,000 occurrences of C. effectively. difficile infections, which is a 15% decrease compared to the previous year. We will continue with our zero tolerance Mixed-sex Wards approach.

13. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): What Mr Burrowes: I thank the Minister for that reply and progress he has made in reducing the use of mixed-sex the rapid progress made under this Government. I accommodation in the NHS. [65120] welcome the new C. difficile objective and the publication of weekly statistics, but does the Minister share my The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon concern that it is the same hospitals that keep appearing Burns): In just six months, the number of reported with the highest number of C. diff cases? What is her breaches of mixed-sex accommodation guidance has Department doing to help those hospitals reduce such fallen by 83%, from 11,802 in December 2010 to 2,011 cases? in May 2011. Across England, the reported breach rate Anne Milton: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. is now 1.4 per 1,000 finished consultant episodes, compared Under the previous Administration there was a national to 8.4 per 1,000 FCEs in December 2010. target of reducing C. difficile infections by 30% by 2011, but that does not address the problem because, as Alun Cairns: A 93-year-old female patient from my he rightly says, there are hospitals that consistently had constituency was placed in a cardiac ward opposite a high rates of infections, so we changed that. Since mental health patient who also needed cardiac treatment. April, every PCT and every acute trust has its own This male patient was much younger and was left in a objective. The organisations with the highest rates of near-naked state for much of the day. That caused so infection will have more ambitious objectives than those much distress to my constituent that she discharged that are doing well. herself early. What effort and focus can the Minister give to the NHS in Wales to ensure that such breaches Children’s Heart Services and mixed-sex wards are ended? 16. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): What progress has Mr Burns: I am saddened to hear my hon. Friend’s been made on the review of children’s congenital heart account of what happened in a hospital in, I assume, his services. [65124] constituency. I can appreciate how distressing it is. As he will understand, that comes within the responsibility The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon of the Welsh Administration as a devolved power. My Burns): The consultation on the future of children’s advice to my hon. Friend is two things. I hope the Welsh congenital services ended on 1 July. The joint committee Assembly will, first, follow the example of my right of primary care trusts, which is overseeing the consultation, hon. Friend the Secretary of State and concentrate on is expected to make a decision later this year, based on reducing mixed-sex accommodation, and secondly, stop an independent analysis of the consultation, reports cutting funding for the health service so that it can from overview and scrutiny committees, and a health afford to do that. impact assessment. 155 Oral Answers12 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 156

Nic Dakin: I thank the Minister for his reply and his discrimination in the NHS. In addition, the work we are thoughtful response to the Back-Bench debate that doing with Macmillan Cancer Support and Age UK is took place in the Chamber. Will he ensure that if any the way forward to ensure that we learn the lessons and further reconfiguration options have emerged from the drive up standards for the care of older people. consultation, they are properly considered and go out to further consultation before a decision is made? Topical Questions

Mr Burns: Yes, I can give the hon. Gentleman a T1. [65132] Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): If he will categorical assurance on that. make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Further The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): to the previous question, if there are further options in My responsibility is to lead the national health service addition to the four already presented, I ask that the in delivering improved health outcomes in England, to Government do not rule out looking at the matter again lead a public health service that improves the health of if it is shown that it is possible for Leeds and Newcastle the nation and reduces health inequalities and to lead to serve the north of England? the reform of adult social care that supports and protects vulnerable people. Mr Simon Burns: As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, I do not want to be drawn into that too far because this Rachel Reeves: Having met families and patients who is an independent assessment by the joint committee of use the children’s heart unit in Leeds, I know the value primary care trusts and I do not want to be seen to be of that service. Does the Secretary of State agree that interfering, but I can say that neither we, nor the JCPCT asking families to travel across the country, which is the have ever said categorically exactly how many centres stark reality they face if the unit is closed down, puts at there should be. It will be up to the JCPCT, as it risk the family support that is so important to children considers the representations it receives, to decide how during these difficult times, and will he pledge to do all many there should be. If it decides to have more than he can to keep the heart unit open? four, it would not need the processes that he is suggesting because it has the power within its remit to increase the Mr Lansley: I am sure that the hon. Lady will have number if it thinks circumstances warrant it. heard the reply from the Minister of State, Department of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford Older People (Cancer Care) (Mr Burns), who explained the continuing process that the joint committee of primary care trusts will undertake. 18. Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland In the context of her question, it is important to make it West) (Lab): What steps he is taking to improve cancer clear that the intention of the review is not to close care for older people. [65126] paediatric cardiac centres. Surgery in some of the centres might cease, depending on the conclusions the committee The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul reaches, but they will continue to provide specialist Burstow): We are working with Macmillan Cancer Support non-surgical services for local populations. The review and Age UK on a £1 million programme to improve intends to ensure that as much non-surgical care is cancer care for older people. The programme consists of delivered as close to children’s homes as possible through 13 pilot sites across the country to improve intervention the development of local congenital heart networks. rates for people over 70 who have a cancer diagnosis. Pilots will introduce new ways of assessing older people T2. [65133] Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Under the for cancer treatment, offer short-term, practical support previous Government, Savernake hospital in my for older people undergoing cancer treatment and will constituency was redeveloped. As a result, taxpayers address any age discrimination in cancer services by have got stuck with nearly £1 million a year in private identifying and addressing the training needs of all finance initiative unitary charges and local services offered professionals working with older people. have been cut drastically. Will the Minister undertake to look at all hospitals labouring under uneconomic PFI Mrs Hodgson: I am sure that the Minister will have burdens and meet me to discuss the Savernake hospital seen the report published today by the Roy Castle Lung situation specifically? Cancer Foundation, which reiterates the considerable research showing that older lung cancer patients do not The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon receive the same level of treatment as younger lung Burns): I am grateful to my hon. Friend, because she cancer patients. In fact, it shows that a 60-year-old has been campaigning on this issue for more than a sufferer is six times more likely to be given surgery than year, and rightly so. Work is being done on the whole an 80-year-old sufferer, which obviously means that issue of PFI and the NHS to ensure value for money. their outcomes are considerably worse. How does the Given her concerns, I would be more than happy to Minister explain that inequality and how can it be meet to discuss this particular case. tackled? John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I want Paul Burstow: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for to say to the Health Secretary directly that it is a highlighting that further piece of evidence that shows disgrace how he and his Ministers have ducked responsibility why the Government have already given a commitment for reassuring more than 30,000 elderly and vulnerable to ensure that there are no exemptions for the NHS residents whose homes may be at risk because of the from the application of our duties in respect of age financial crisis at Southern Cross. Today’s urgent question discrimination, as there should be no place for age is the second time in a month that this House has had to 157 Oral Answers12 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 158 drag Ministers to Parliament to explain what is going training, and we will be taking those forward to try to on. Southern Cross is set to close down completely by ensure that there is greater collective understanding of October. Will the Secretary of State give a commitment work force requirements. this afternoon to the residents of Southern Cross, their families and 40,000 staff that Ministers will in future Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): Recent figures show leadership and make public statements to this show that just over 40% of Bradfordians have not House? visited a dentist in the past two years, and many of my constituents say that that is simply because they cannot The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul get an NHS dentist. Does the Minister agree that it Burstow): I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for would be extremely difficult for a centralised national his question. He will of course know that when the first commissioning board to deal with this insufficient supply urgent question was asked, the Government had already of NHS dentists at a local level? provided a written ministerial statement setting out Mr Lansley: I am interested in my hon. Friend’s these matters in great detail, and we are happy to point. As he will have heard in response to an earlier answer the questions that hon. Members will want to question, we are already increasing access to NHS put in the urgent question later on. We have also said dentistry, with a 0.75 million increase in the space of a throughout that we do not help the welfare or interests year. In fact, it is probably possible to address more of residents by an ongoing running commentary on effectively some of these questions of access to dentistry these matters. through a consistent national contract that can be responded to locally through the work of the health and well-being T6. [65140] Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): Despite boards, which will be able to make their own the Government making available an additional £400 recommendations through the joint strategic needs million for primary care trusts to support carers, I assessment. understand that my local Princess Royal Trust carers service is finding it very hard to engage with the local T4. [65135] Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Given PCT in my constituency. Will Ministers remind PCTs to that the UK has the worst one-year and five-year follow guidance and work with local carers’ organisations survival rates for lung cancer compared with Australia, to develop plans for using the additional Government Canada, Norway, Sweden and Denmark, as has been money that has been provided? highlighted today by the Roy Castle Lung Cancer Foundation report, what measures is the Secretary of Paul Burstow: I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern. State taking to improve the detection of lung cancer The NHS operating framework that the Government symptoms in primary care? published last December makes it abundantly clear that primary care trusts need to work with their local authorities Mr Lansley: The hon. Lady will know that we are and care organisations to agree a budget and, where focusing, as I said in response to an earlier question, on possible, to pool it so that it can be provided to individuals improving survival rates at one and five years for lung to enable them to get respite in the way that suits them cancer, among other cancers. One essential task is to best. I will certainly be pursuing this through the improve public awareness of the symptoms of lung Government’s normal assurance processes to ensure cancer, and we are already piloting means by which we that these things happen through the operating framework, can do that. At the same time, there have been research but the hon. Gentleman might also want to invite his trials on the effectiveness of X-ray screening for lung local overview and scrutiny committee to call to account cancer, and we will look at the results shortly. local commissioners for the way in which they are behaving at the moment. Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I have been contacted by a constituent who has just graduated in dentistry but has been unable to find a [65134] Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): NHS West T3. placement for his dental foundation year. What support Midlands is cutting nurse training next year by a fifth are we giving such students so that we increase access to and predicting a reduction of 7.25% over five years in NHS dentistry? the qualifying work force—not bureaucrats, but nurses—thereby denying youngsters in this country Mr Lansley: I understand that more dentists are training for a worthwhile profession and career. Is not currently employed in the UK than ever before. My this a scandal and a shambles, and what is the Minister hon. Friend makes an important point and if she is able going to do about it? to provide further details, I will pursue it, because one objective of deaneries should be to ensure that the Mr Lansley: The right hon. Gentleman may not major investment that we put into the initial education know this, but following representations made directly of dentists is followed through in professional training. to me I have looked at this very carefully. The strategic health authority is currently responsible for the number T5. [65136] AnasSarwar(GlasgowCentral)(Lab):Some of nursing commissions that it undertakes. It has assessed 3,500 residents at 98 Southern Cross care homes, including the number of commissions that it should undertake 48 residents at Arcadia Gardens in my constituency, are based on its future work force requirements and has facing an uncertain future. The Scottish Government reached the conclusion that it is indeed reducing the number have today said that they will work on the presumption of commissions in the west midlands. That is not true to that those people will still be in their homes after this the same extent in other strategic health authorities crisis. What discussions has the Secretary of State had across the country. In the listening exercise conducted with Scottish Ministers about finding new operators by the NHS Future Forum, further recommendations and a solution that does not show complacency, but were made about how we can reform education and delivers continuity of care for the residents? 159 Oral Answers12 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 160

Paul Burstow: That is exactly what the Government Social Care Bill and the difficulties that they are are doing. We have had those discussions with the encountering in raising capital for new build and devolved Administrations, and officials are engaged modernisation? In particular, will he indicate what with the landlords and lenders to ensure that they are consideration he has given to detailed safeguards? doing just that. I look forward to answering the urgent question shortly. Mr Speaker: Order. We must have short questions and short answers. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is acknowledged that the rising rates of norovirus are worse where there Mr Simon Burns: I appreciate that question, because is a shortage of acute hospital beds. How does the I understand how important the issue is to the hon. Secretary of State square the understandable desire to Gentleman. We have had considerable discussions on get on top of hospital-acquired infections with his zeal this matter, which is currently being further discussed to reduce acute hospital beds? by the Department of Health and the Treasury. We hope to reach some decisions shortly, and he will be one Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He of the first to know. will understand that each hospital trust or acute trust must be responsible for ensuring that there is not an excessive length of stay for patients and that it has the Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): How can a ability to isolate patients if necessary. Norovirus is one consultation process on children’s heart units that includes circumstance in which trusts often have to open additional the best unit in the country outside London, at capacity. In my experience of hospitals, that is precisely Southampton general hospital, in only one out of four what is generally done. There is an ability to open new options and disregards the population of the Isle of capacity if necessary when norovirus strikes. Wight completely be anything other than fundamentally flawed? Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): Consulting on changes to health services is not an easy thing to get Mr Burns: As my hon. Friend will know from the right. I think that the Secretary of State would agree debate that we had in the House a few weeks ago, it with that. Will he undertake to look at the consultation would be inappropriate for me to comment, because I taking place in County Durham and Darlington on must in no way be seen to be prejudging the issue. The acute stroke services, because I and the local council inquiry and consultation is independent. However, I believe it to be misleading? can say to him that the inquiry is not fixed on determining only four sites if the results of its consultation suggest Mr Lansley: I will, of course, look at that consultation, that there should be more. The decision rests with the with which I am not directly familiar. The four tests that inquiry. I set out shortly after the election of understanding patients’ current and prospective choice; understanding Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): what is demanded by clinical safety and evidence; The Secretary of State will be aware that there has been understanding the view of the public, as represented a tripling of prescriptions for drugs such as Ritalin, or through the local authority; and understanding the to give it its generic name methylphenidate hydrochloride, intentions of commissioners, particularly the clinical in the past decade. He will also know that NICE guidelines commissioning groups that are being established, give a state that those drugs should not be prescribed to much stronger basis for understanding future configuration children under the age of six. Why cannot his Department decisions. give a breakdown showing how many of those prescriptions are going to children under the age of six? Will he heed Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) the call from the Association of Educational Psychologists (Con): I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware of for a review of the growth of the prescription of those the campaign group Transplant 2013, which aims to powerful psycho-stimulants to very young children? increase the number of people on the organ donor register by 60% by 2013. Will he join me in encouraging Paul Burstow: The right hon. Gentleman raises a very people not only to sign up to the register, but to discuss important point. We need to ensure that we have the that action with their families, so that when the time right data to properly understand prescribing practice, comes their whole family is aware of their wishes? so that we can both challenge bad practice and ensure Mr Lansley: Yes, I join my hon. Friend in that. I have that the NICE guidance is properly followed. I would signed up to the organ donor register and have discussed like to look more closely at his points and then write to that with my wife so that she knows my wishes. I him in detail. encourage others to do the same. In the last few days, I have been to the retirement event of John Wallwork, Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): who was the first surgeon to undertake a successful Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating heart and lung transplant in this country. He has led the advisers working for Bexley stop smoking service, who charitable activities on transplant over recent years. I helped more than 1,600 people stop smoking last year? know that he would share our desire for more organs to Does the Minister agree that helping people stop smoking be available for this vital activity. should remain an important public health priority? Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Has the Secretary The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health of State had an opportunity to pause, reflect and listen (Anne Milton): I am happy to join my hon. Friend in to the NHS foundation trusts, particularly North Tees congratulating those who are making efforts locally. As and Hartlepool NHS Trust, which serves part of my he will be aware, public health services will move to area, given the uncertainties created by the Health and local authorities, and I am sure those efforts will continue. 161 Oral Answers12 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 162

Some 80,000 people a year die of smoking-related disease, so we relaxed the 98% limit to 95%. As it happens, I and 320,000 young people are taking up smoking each believe that according to the latest data, between 97% year. We must not only help those who are smoking to and 97.5% of patients are being seen in under four stop but prevent young people from taking it up. hours.

Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): The number of Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Hospital patients waiting more than four hours in A and E went admissions for food allergy went up by 500% between up by 76% in the past year, which is an extra 200,000 1990 and 2006, and there are 15 million hay fever people. I think we all know what a hellish experience sufferers, which has a real impact on productivity, so we waiting in A and E can be. Does the Secretary of State urgently need better allergy services. When will the agree that that is a backward step, and that he ought to Government report on the pilot in the north-west of take steps to rectify it? England of a new model of allergy services? Mr Lansley: I fear that I do not know when that will Mr Lansley: Shortly after the election we took clinical be available, but I will certainly write to the hon. Lady. I and expert advice that made it very clear that the have visited the allergy unit at Addenbrooke’s hospital expectation that 98% of patients should be seen within in my constituency, and I know how effective, and four hours was not clinically appropriate in some cases, indeed cost-effective, such work can be in treating allergies. 163 12 JULY 2011 Southern Cross Care Homes 164

Southern Cross Care Homes the care sector will take over the running of homes, but that will not happen. Alternative operators will need to 3.34 pm be reputable and experienced companies that can satisfy the CQC that they are capable of delivering high-quality Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) care and of meeting all regulatory standards. The CQC (Lab) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State will not drop its standards in ensuring that requirements for Health if he will make a statement on the future of are met. I understand that each of Southern Cross’s Southern Cross Care Homes. landlords is settling its arrangements regarding which care home operators to work with, which is an essential The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul part of the ongoing discussions. That will cover all Burstow): As the House will be aware, Southern Cross landlords, so that there is a clear way forward for all has been working with its landlords and lenders to homes. agree a restructuring process to secure a viable way forward for the future. As I set out to the House on Finally, I assure the House that the CQC has been 16 June, the Government have made it clear that our working with Southern Cross landlords and other overriding concern is the welfare and safety of the stakeholders for several months to ensure the smooth 31,000 residents in Southern Cross’s care, and that we transition of services, and that it has processes to deal expect all parties to work together to secure a consensual, with re-registration, and to undertake the essential checks solvent restructuring of the business that meets their that are needed as a priority. It is having ongoing collective responsibility to secure the welfare and care conversations with Southern Cross, landlords and other of residents. providers on the timing of applications. When I last updated the House on 16 June, Southern The Government’s priority is to ensure that the current Cross, its landlords and lenders had the previous day problems with Southern Cross are resolved and that a announced an agreement to work through, over a period sustainable way forward can be secured, but, as the of four months, arrangements for a consensual, solvent Prime Minister has previously stated to the House, we restructuring. Yesterday’s announcement was one step must all be clear on what future action is taken and in that ongoing process, and discussions to resolve the draw lessons from what has happened. remaining steps continue. I said earlier that yesterday’s statement from Southern I know that there is concern about what yesterday’s Cross was one step in a process that will be ongoing in statement might mean, and that residents, families and the coming weeks and months. Until all future arrangements staff are anxious to know what will happen next. Let me are settled, Southern Cross will continue to operate and repeat the assurance I have given to House before: to provide care in all its homes. Only at the end of the whatever the outcome, no one will find themselves process, when all transfer arrangements have been homeless or without care. We will not stand by and let completed, will Southern Cross as an entity cease to that happen. We will continue to work with the Association exist. By then, all homes will have a clear plan for future of Directors of Adult Social Services, the Local operation, and the continuity of care will have been Government Association, the Care Quality Commission secured. That is the approach that the Department of and others to ensure that there is an effective response Health has taken. Officials are in daily contact will all to any potential disruption to the continuity of care and relevant parties. This Government are not sitting back; to ensure that all residents are indeed protected. A we are fully engaged. consensual restructuring that assures a smooth transition to new arrangements will mean that those contingency Several hon. Members rose— arrangements will not be needed. We all want that to happen. Mr Speaker: Order. I thank the Minister for his Let me reassure hon. Members about some of the statement, which was very informative, but he significantly questions that I know they will have. First, yesterday’s exceeded his time. I will therefore allow the shadow announcement stated that at the end of the restructuring Minister slightly more than her two minutes so that process the Southern Cross corporate entity will cease there is equity between the two sides. I emphasise for to exist. That has no effect on the provision of care or the future, however, that answers to urgent questions the operation of care homes. Southern Cross remains in must be of the prescribed length, and the same goes for operation, and will continue to operate all its care questions from now on. homes until any transfer to new operators takes place. Secondly, the transfer of care homes to alternative Emily Thornberry: I thank the Minister for his response operators will be a managed process that ensures continuity to my urgent question. Yesterday’s Southern Cross of services. Yesterday’s statement makes it clear that announcement that responsibility for managing 752 homes care home staff will transfer on their current terms, and will pass back to the 80 landlords who own them has that the service that residents receive should be unaffected created a vacuum. I was interested to hear him say that by the transfer. All parties involved in the negotiations that was part of a managed process because it does not have given a clear commitment that the continuity of look like that—it has been a source of terrible uncertainty care will be paramount in that process. Local authorities and great anxiety among residents and families. We are already working to ensure that they can assist in the have had so little information. smooth transfer of arrangements in respect of homes in I am grateful for the information that the Minister their areas. The Department has been working with has given today, but we need much more. Can the ADASS and the LGA to support that. Government publish a list of all 80 landlords, or are the Thirdly, no transfer will take place without new operators rumours correct that some of them have yet to be being approved and registered by the CQC. There has identified? Yesterday it was further announced that been speculation that companies with no experience in control of 250 of the homes would be handed back to 165 Southern Cross Care Homes12 JULY 2011 Southern Cross Care Homes 166 the landlords immediately. We need to know which saga has been motivated by a single and paramount homes they are so that people living in them know who concern—to secure the continued and orderly delivery is running their home. Many of these landlords have of care to the right standards to the residents of these little or no experience of running care homes. Does he homes—and that, in that respect, this Government are have any information on the intentions of property operating unchanged precisely the policy operated by companies such as London and Regional homes, which their predecessors? owns 90 former Southern Cross homes, or Prestbury, which owns 21? Paul Burstow: My right hon. Friend is absolutely I understand that the Association of Directors of right to make that point, which allows me to make Adult Social Services is doing its best to supports its another point. The Health and Social Care Bill is currently members, who will have a key role in ensuring that the before this House—Members are enjoying the Committee operating companies can provide good quality care and stage at this very moment—and it contains the very that local authorities also know how to perform financial provisions that will allow us to put in place a regime, stress tests to ensure that the new businesses have sound which currently does not exist, to ensure proper oversight financial models, but what assistance is the Minister and engagement with those issues from a central giving? Does he intend to provide additional resources Government perspective. The previous Government did to hard-pressed local authorities in order to help them? not leave such a regime in place, nor did they put in What advice can he give to local authorities if, for place the necessary tools to allow the Government to do example, the new company is an offshore company? If everything that they might want to do and that the hon. the Department of Health does not have the expertise Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily to assist ADASS, will he give that organisation access to Thornberry) might like us to do. officials from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, who might be able to provide that assistance? Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Does the Minister accept that if any elderly people are moved Presumably, the new operators taking control of the out of their homes, there will be an increased incidence homes will need to be registered with the Care Quality of death and a reduction in people’s mental and physical Commission—the Minister has assured us that that will health? What measures is he taking to ensure that as few happen—but given the staff shortages at the CQC will people as possible are moved from those homes? he assure us that the registrations will be completed quickly? The House has heard him guarantee that the Paul Burstow: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely new operators will honour the previous terms and right: we are working hard with the landlords, lenders conditions of the 44,000 employees, but how does that and others to ensure that those risks are minimised, square with the announcement of 3,000 job losses? because the trauma of a hasty care home move and a Does he know how many homes are likely to close and forced closure leads to exactly those consequences. The what the timetable is for such closures? What will happen Association of Directors of Adult Social Services has to the 50 former Southern Cross homes owned by published new guidance for its members to manage Lloyds properties, which is in administration? What those difficult decisions and processes and to minimise about NHP, which owns 250 former Southern Cross that risk as far as humanly possible. homes and which is at a standstill with its bondholders? These problems must be addressed. We need a home-by- home plan from the landlords, and he must give us that Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): This is plan. The buck stops with him. Will he now accept his not a time for party political point scoring. The House responsibilities? will have been reassured by the Minister’s comments, as will the many residents of Astoria Park Southern Cross home in Park crescent, Peterborough, along with their Paul Burstow: My slightly-longer-than-it-should-have- families. The only point I would make to the Minister is been answer to the hon. Lady’s question was an attempt that when the immediate crisis has been resolved, there to set out as much detail as was possible about the steps should be a mechanism to work with key stakeholders being taken to achieve a consensual, solvent restructuring such as the Care Quality Commission to understand of the business so that the homes can continue to the lessons of the flawed business model that Southern operate. That is what my answer was all about. She Cross pursued. asked about the role of the CQC, which, as I said to her, has been working for some months with the landlords Paul Burstow: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, to ensure a smooth process of re-registration as new and that is indeed one of the many issues we need to operators are identified to take on the running of individual consider as we proceed towards publishing a White homes. I also said in response to her initial question Paper next year on social care reform. We have to ask that every home will be transferred. There is a plan in questions about the regulatory framework that existed place that will lead to all homes being transferred over when that business model was established. We also need the next four months. She asked about engagement with to ensure that we have the necessary tools to deal with BIS. Of course, as part of the ongoing work, the large care home providers of this sort, where an individual Department of Health is engaging with BIS to ensure local authority might be unable to cope with the that we have the very best advice in dealing with these consequences. Those are the issues that we are working issues. The Government have been—and remain—fully with and that we shall continue to work with. engaged with the process. Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): For the The Minister gave a list of consultations and apparently avoidance of doubt, will my hon. Friend confirm that daily meetings of his officials with care home providers the Government’s policy since the beginning of this and landlords. The one group that was markedly lacking 167 Southern Cross Care Homes12 JULY 2011 Southern Cross Care Homes 168

[Glenda Jackson] Paul Burstow: I understand entirely the point that my hon. Friend and other hon. Members are making on in the process was the residents of the homes and their behalf of their constituents. The nature of the reporting families. When will they be included in this process? of the announcement yesterday, and other announcements Who will be responsible for informing them of the before it, is a source of worry for residents, staff and timeline if there have to be moves, and will they be in a families. I hope that today’s statement will go some way position to object strongly if, for example, an elderly towards giving them some reassurance. Equally, it will person does not wish to be moved from the home in not help the successful, solvent restructuring of the which they are resident? Who is responsible for informing business, which will provide that continuity of care, if those people? we have an endless commentary on it. What is important is that the necessary actions are taken, and they are Paul Burstow: The first thing to say is that everything being taken. I have set out for the House today is about minimising the numbers of closures and moves. It is about ensuring Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): Does not the Minister continuity of care and continuing care in existing care understand that it is not endless commentary that we homes. However, having said that, I made the point in want from him but some reassurance for residents in response to her right hon. Friend the Member for these homes? Also, it is not continuity of care that they Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) that there is want, but continuity of the place in which they live. new guidance for local authorities on how they engage These are not just residential homes; they are places with the residents of care homes and their families, and where people live, and they form a valuable part of the it is the responsibility of local authorities to do just community. What reassurance can the Minister give us that. that this is not only about continuity of care for those people but about their having continuity of residence in Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Were it not the home they live in? for my two county councils, information about the two homes in my constituency—Windsor Court in Goole Paul Burstow: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; and St Mary’s in Scunthorpe—would not have been this is about people’s homes and their futures. That is forthcoming at all. Given that it has also taken me why the Government have been working to make it several weeks to try—unsuccessfully—to get Southern abundantly clear to all those involved in the process Cross to allow me even to visit their homes, can the what their responsibilities are, and what the local authorities’ Minister give me an assurance that he will do everything responsibilities are. We have also made it abundantly he can to ensure that we are given home-specific information clear that in no circumstances will the Government do as quickly as possible? If such information is not being anything other than ensure the future continuity of care made available to Members of Parliament, it is probably for people. No one will be made homeless, and no one not being made available to residents or their families. will wind up without the care and support they need.

Paul Burstow: Yes, and I gladly undertake to ensure Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Considering that if further information needs to be shared during the real concern in areas around the country, including the summer recess, hon. Members in all parts of the Leeds, and the clear duty of local authorities in this House will receive it in a timely fashion, so that they can role, does the Minister agree that it is inappropriate and address their constituents’ concerns. irresponsible for councils such as Leeds city council to pursue a raft of closures in their own care homes while Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): There are 1,772 people this problem clearly exists? in 35 Southern Cross homes in Wales, but I did not hear the Minister refer to them at all in his answer. Where Paul Burstow: My hon. Friend tempts me to comment does the buck stop, as far as they are concerned? Is it on an individual local authority’s decisions, the details with Welsh local authorities, with the Welsh Government, of which I do not have. It seems to me that that is an or with him, even though this matter is devolved? area that the council in question will have to look at carefully. The key thing has to be that local authorities Paul Burstow: I have had, and continue to have, are responsible for looking at the availability of good contacts with the Ministers responsible for policy in this quality care home placements in their area and to area in the devolved Administrations, but the legal supply individuals who are funded by the local authority responsibility for continuity of care from the point of and who need a decent care home with just that. view of the public purse rests with the local authorities. That is where the legal powers sit, and it is where the Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I have legal responsibility has to be placed. We are working nine Southern Cross homes in my constituency, and with the Local Government Association and others to they are sitting on some very expensive real estate. The ensure that the local authorities are able to put contingency problem for Southern Cross was that its rents were too plans in place. high. What negotiations has the Minister undertaken with the landlords to ensure that that problem does not Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): Lombardy Park in my continue and beset the new operators who we hope will constituency provides residential care for extremely take over the running of those facilities? vulnerable young adults with severe learning difficulties. They, and especially their parents and families, are Paul Burstow: I do not know the particulars of the extremely concerned about what is going on. What homes to which the hon. Lady refers, but if she would reassurance can the Minister give them that those residents like to write to me with more details, I will certainly will be protected and looked after? look at that matter. Many of the homes that Southern 169 Southern Cross Care Homes12 JULY 2011 Southern Cross Care Homes 170

Cross owns have been specifically built and designed to sector, fails to tell us that he is going to restore the cuts provide residential care for older people, and there is to local authorities that would enable them to handle therefore no other purpose for which they could usefully the crisis. be converted—[Interruption.] Opposition Members might chunter about that, but that is why a consensual, solvent Paul Burstow: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his restructuring is now the best and most likely outcome of comments. He should just reflect on the fact that this the process. company and this business model were established during the 13 years when his party was in office and on the fact Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): The that his party did not put in place the necessary regulatory residents, staff and families of the King’s Court home measures that would have allowed anything other than in my constituency will be encouraged by what they the very measured approach that this Government are have heard today, but will my hon. Friend write to me taking— working with the lenders and the landlords to with all the relevant information about the key issues of ensure a consensual restructuring of this business. That continuity and quality of care provision at King’s Court? is what the residents of these homes want, and that is what we are doing to make it happen. Paul Burstow: My hon. Friend is right to bring to my attention, and that of the House, the concerns of his James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): constituents. I certainly hope that the statement I was I recently visited Roxburgh House in Cradley Heath in able to make today is of some reassurance, along with my constituency, where a number of vulnerable elderly the commitment I made to continue to keep both the residents are concerned about their future. Does the House and individual hon. Members informed as this Minister agree that we need not only to address the matter goes forward. continuity of care in those homes now, as he has described, but seriously to review the situation, once this crisis has Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): This is the second been managed, to make sure that it does not happen time this month that this Minister has been dragged to again? Will he outline the steps he will take to ensure the Dispatch Box to answer urgent questions about that that happens? Southern Cross. The Government need to get a grip. May we have a ministerial taskforce from across Paul Burstow: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That Government to manage and monitor the transfer of is exactly what we also need to work on, which is why homes to landlords? We need to ensure stability and we are providing in the Health and Social Care Bill the give peace of mind to Southern Cross residents and necessary powers for regulations to be made that would their relatives. allow such a regulatory approach to be developed. During consideration of those ideas in Committee, it Paul Burstow: I note that the hon. Gentleman seems was far from clear whether the Opposition believed that to be a bit like a stuck record, repeating the point that this was a worthwhile approach to adopt. he made last time. The reality is that the Government are taking the necessary steps, are exercising their Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Before entering responsibilities correctly and are making others responsible this House, I was a care standards inspector in Wales. and accountable for discharging their legal responsibilities Part of the problem is the fact that we are not willing to as well. What the hon. Gentleman left out from his pay properly for the appropriate registration and inspection question was any suggestion of what specific powers his of care homes. One thing that worried me about the Government put in place that would have allowed us to Minister’s statement was when he said that the registration deal with this issue. There are no such powers. of the new management bodies for these homes would be completed quickly.It should not be “quick”registration; Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Does the it should be thorough and effective registration. May we Minister feel that there would be value in considering have an assurance that the registration will indeed be the financial regulation of care homes and the care thorough and effective? Secondly, may we have an assurance home sector so that this sort of situation does not occur that the care standards inspectors will not be diverted again in future? from carrying on the ongoing inspection of other homes, thus protecting other frail and vulnerable adults in care Paul Burstow: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I homes around the country? hope that we can learn the necessary lessons about what regulation should exist at the national level and what Paul Burstow: I said in response to the original question powers are in place for regulators to intervene in these that there would be no relaxation of the standards when circumstances. The reality is that the regulatory powers it came to the registration of new homes, and that there that this Government inherited from the previous would be no rush but a smooth transition to the running Government are next to non-existent. That is one reason of the businesses by new operators. There was no suggestion why hon. Members have been able to drag Ministers to that the process would take place in a rushed way. I urge account, as has been said, before the House. What we the hon. Lady to read the record later. have said as a result is that as we work to produce the As for the role of the CQC, we made it clear last year White Paper, we will address these issues to make sure that we would allow it to recruit the necessary staff, and that we have a system in place. that there would be no limit to its ability to recruit staff whom it felt that it needed in order to do its job. Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Another day, another Tory disaster. We have frail, elderly men and Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): What other lessons women who do not even know what day it is, yet this have the Government learned from this case? The new Minister, because he is so obsessed with the private regulatory measures in the Health and Social Care Bill 171 Southern Cross Care Homes12 JULY 2011 Southern Cross Care Homes 172

[Andrew George] yes. The continuity of care will be not just for the benefit of older residents of care homes, but for the benefit of are welcome, but if greater proportions of both health any individual who relies on the services provided by and social care are being exposed to this level of speculative the company. capital, do the Government not need to reflect on whether further measures are required? John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I have been raising concerns about the management of Paul Burstow: I am keen not to start leaping to lots of Southern Cross in the House since 2007, in early-day conclusions. About 77% of all social care provision in motions and Adjournment debates. Despite assurances England is already in the private sector. This is not an from the Care Quality Commission and from the company experiment, but a fact of life that has evolved over itself, the system resulted in neglect and abuse in my the last 20 and 30 years and has been overseen by borough, which, at one point, suspended all placements Administrations of all colours. What we do need to do in Southern Cross homes. I therefore view with some is ensure that we have effective, proportionate regulation scepticism the assurances given today by the commission that safeguards the interests of residents who see these and participants in the company. Will the Minister be homes as their homes, along with robust arrangements able to empower local authorities to take control of on the ground to safeguard good quality. homes if they are threatened with closure and residents John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): Can the Minister confirm may be forcibly moved? that elderly people could now be forced out of the homes in which they have lived for years and be stuck in Paul Burstow: The hon. Gentleman has been raising homes that are inferior, or are situated many miles from those concerns in the way that he has, and I will where they live? certainly look at the points he has raised in the past. Local authorities have certain statutory powers in respect Paul Burstow: I believe that the hon. Gentleman has of their ability to respond to the closure of a care home been in the House for a considerable time. He will know by managing and resourcing that. We have been, and that the secret that he appears to be sharing with the continue to be, in discussion with local authorities on House, and with others who are following our proceedings, that, so that they are able to respond in the event of a is not something totally new. He knows that care homes closure. I return to my key point, however, and the key close already, and he knows that, as a consequence, reassurance we have not only from the company, but people do face such terrible circumstances. That is why from the landlords: this is a solvent restructuring of the the Government, working with ADASS, have ensured business, so that the care homes continue to operate and that the necessary arrangements and good practice to provide homes for their residents. advice are in place, which is something that his party did not do. Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): It is not only the residents of the Birchwood Grange and Coplands homes Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Residents of in my constituency who are concerned about their future; Bebington and the rest of the Wirral are extremely so, too, are the people who work in those homes. Can concerned about the Southern Cross experience. Will the Minister guarantee that the new operators will the Minister say more about the specific lessons that we honour the terms and conditions of those workers, so need to learn from it, given the Prime Minister’s that they can see that their future is also secure? announcement yesterday about the wider opening up of public service delivery? Paul Burstow: There is an undertaking that the TUPE regulations would apply: there would be a transfer on Paul Burstow: As I said to my hon. Friend the Member the current conditions. That is what all the staff have for St Ives (Andrew George), 77% of adult social care is been told, and I am certainly happy to repeat the already in the private sector, and as we said in “A vision undertakings that have been given by those responsible for adult social care”, we want a more vibrant, diverse for those undertakings. market which includes voluntary sector providers. We want to examine the role of regulation, to ensure that it Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Shameful assists with the management of that market and, speculation brought Southern Cross to its knees, but fundamentally, to ensure that it protects the rights and local authorities will now have a key role to play in best interests of those who use these services. rescuing the homes of 31,000 people in a year when, Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Will the Minister according to Age UK, the social care budget is being assure me that consultation with the devolved authorities cut by 8.4%. What discussions has the Minister had will take account of the different mix of landlords and with the Department for Communities and Local lenders there? On a wider issue, will he assure the House Government, because it cannot be right to ask local that the undertakings he has given in respect of older authorities to accept public responsibility for a private residents will apply, at least equally, to much younger failure and to deny them the necessary resources? residents who are receiving bespoke care packages for conditions such as acquired brain injuries, often on a Paul Burstow: As I have made clear, given the current different contractual basis and outside the normal Southern stage of the announcements on this solvent restructuring, Cross business model? Will such people be fully taken we appear to be in a position where the scenario the care of? hon. Gentleman asks about will not come to pass. Paul Burstow: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): for his question, which allows me to deal with an earlier There are more than 300 residents in seven Southern question on the same subject. The answer is absolutely Cross care homes in Salford, and their quality of life is 173 Southern Cross Care Homes12 JULY 2011 Southern Cross Care Homes 174 our primary consideration. What assurance can the Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): Minister give to those residents and their families that Just a few weeks ago, I visited Bellevue Court, a home future providers will not play for short-term profit, but run by Southern Cross in my constituency, where I was will truly consider their quality of life? Reassurances told that the home would stay part of the restructured will not mean much if a new provider gets into the same Southern Cross group and that there would be no business model and same way of carrying on as Southern redundancies. We now find that there is to be no restructured Cross. Southern Cross group, so does the Minister understand the scepticism that will be felt by families and staff Paul Burstow: The hon. Lady is right. As we move involved in Southern Cross if the guarantees given a forward and achieve a successful conclusion to this month ago did not last the month? process, we must put in place the necessary measures to ensure that this cannot happen again. We must take a Paul Burstow: What we have is a process that is critical look at the regulatory environment in which this working towards that solvent restructuring of the business particular business model was allowed to grow—a business to ensure that each home is able to be taken over by an model that thrived during a boom, but that was predicated operator or a group of operators so that good-quality on the assumption that there would never again be a care can continue to be provided for the people who live bust. There was a bust however, and that is why the there. That is what this process involving the landlords, company is in this mess. the lenders and Southern Cross is all about. What we know from the statement made by the company yesterday is that it has given an undertaking for the TUPE transfer Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): The of the staff. We also know that the company will be great majority of these homes were given landlords, but working over the next four months to ensure that smooth the one in my constituency was owned by Southern transition. As my statement said, the public authorities—the Cross and the title deeds have been passed to the bank. I Care Quality Commission and the local authorities—are have no confidence in the banks doing anything else but working with the company to ensure that that happens. selling such deeds for the maximum profit. Does the Minister agree? Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): The Minister knows as well as I do that local authorities Paul Burstow: I would reassure the hon. Gentleman may have a legal obligation to intervene in this situation on that point by repeating that we are engaged with not but they cannot do that without Government assistance only the landlords, but the lenders too, about all their with the resources. It is no good the Minister blaming a responsibilities on the fundamental issue of the welfare previous Labour Government or local authorities; he is of the residents of these care homes. We continue to passing the buck to local authorities. I thought that make that point. That is the legal obligation that local Pontius Pilate died 2,000 years ago, but we have just authorities have to honour, and we are working with all seen his resurrection. those parties to make sure that that is what happens. Paul Burstow: What I would say to the hon. Gentleman Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): There are four Southern is that there is not a question of funding these homes, Cross care homes in my constituency. Does the Minister because they are not insolvent. The business is not agree that in terms of care provision people should be going into administration—it is going through a treated first as people, not as sources of potential profit? restructuring—so there is no request for funds and there is no need for those funds in order for local Paul Burstow: Yes. authorities to be able to carry out their current legal duties. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): There seems to be a measure of agreement among Members on both Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I do not know whether sides of the House about the need for proper regulation, the Minister heard the excellent Radio 4 programme oversight and management of these homes. Will the “You and Yours” earlier this week, which included a Minister therefore take the opportunity to dissociate long discussion on care homes and care in the community. himself from the remarks made and position adopted The programme gave the impression that more care by the Minister of State, Department of Health, the home problems are in the pipeline and that we are right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) on dealing with Southern Cross today, but several others 7 January 2004? He moved an Opposition motion deploring are in a similar situation. Can he give us any assurances the then Labour Government’s on that point? Will he also examine care provision in the community, because many care companies also provide “over-prescriptive, expensive and bureaucratic regulation of the that service to local authorities and it would be an care home sector”—[Official Report, 7 January 2004; Vol. 416, absolute catastrophe if the same thing were to happen c. 324.] to care in the community? That statement is reminiscent of the neanderthal, neo- Conservative approach adopted by his right hon. Friend Paul Burstow: It is for those very reasons that this the Chancellor in his remarks on deregulating the banking Government last year set out a vision of reform of sector. social care based on greater personal control and personalisation of the services that people need to Paul Burstow: I am going to stay focused on the sustain them in the community. It is also why we have welfare and interests of the residents of these homes, committed to produce a White Paper that will focus on and we will have those political debates on another issues of quality and regulation, and that will bring occasion. together the other issues associated with how we reform 175 Southern Cross Care Homes12 JULY 2011 Southern Cross Care Homes 176

[Paul Burstow] and can he tell us when he will do that? That is the way to provide reassurance and security for many people the laws in this country, which have evolved in a piecemeal who live and work in homes other than the 31,000 in fashion over the past 60 years and which make the Southern Cross. system opaque and hard to navigate. Those are the commitments that we have entered into and will continue Paul Burstow: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of to prosecute. State for Business, Innovation and Skills has already made statements and commitments about looking at Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): the business model and at why it was thought to be The Minister talks about every home being taken over, appropriate for this sector. but it is obvious from his earlier remarks that he expects closures. That is a worry for me, given the two care Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I homes in Tullibody and Crieff in my constituency. Just met my local authority a few weeks ago to discuss the how many closures are acceptable to him? Southern Cross situation and it was obvious that it was not totally prepared for the complete withdrawal of Paul Burstow: Closures in their constituency are a Southern Cross from the social care market. Will the concern to any hon. Member, and I suspect that that is Minister tell the House whether he has issued or intends why we have made it clear that we have been working to issue guidance to local authorities on how to deal with the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services. with this situation? I am not going to come up with an arbitrary threshold below or above which something is good or bad; we Paul Burstow: It is not a question of trying to write need to focus on the needs of the individuals, which is guidance in Whitehall. This is about our engagement why I have made it clear, in response to some of the with the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services hon. Gentleman’s colleagues, that we now have best about how directors discharge their statutory responsibilities. practice advice on how such closures are to be managed. Writing guidance does not deal with the immediate That did not exist and was never drafted under the changes. We need to ensure that local authorities’ existing previous Government. legal obligations to ensure continuity of care are properly exercised. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Co-op): The Minister said that he had been in discussions Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Is it with the devolved Administrations, as I would expect not obvious that if the Government are implementing him to be. What assurances can he give the House based swingeing cuts in the money they give to local authorities, on those discussions for residents in constituencies in they in turn will give less money to the care homes, and Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland about their future that this is only the beginning of a set of care home under the plans he has announced today? closures that could be catastrophic? Does the Minister seriously believe he can wash his hands of all responsibility? Paul Burstow: The approach is one that I have rehearsed quite clearly today before the House. We as a Department Paul Burstow: In the spending review last year, the continue to work closely with the devolved Administrations, Government took our responsibilities very seriously. As sharing information about our contact at a national a result, we identified and agreed that by 2014-15 an level with the landlords as a landlord committee as well additional £2 billion would go into social care to support as with individual landlords. If the hon. Gentleman has those budgets. We know from the work that has been specific concerns about Scotland, he should contact the done by others that with efficiency savings, such as Scottish Government, too. those I was talking about earlier as regards reablement and telecare, that resources are sufficient to sustain the Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): My local system while we do the necessary work to reform it. authority does not know who the successor landlords are in some of the cases in Manchester. The people I Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): There represent do not know who their landlords will be. This are nine Southern Cross homes across Tameside and most complacent of Ministers ought to be able to come Stockport and still more in adjacent Manchester. Although to the House and tell us the answer to this question: some good work might be being done at an individual does he guarantee that every one of these offshore district level, I am not convinced that much contingency financial companies will agree to take over the running planning is being done across city regions such as of these homes? That is what my constituents need to Greater Manchester. What encouragement and, more know. importantly, financial assistance, can the Minister give local authorities to ensure that there is cross-city regional Paul Burstow: What I have told the House is that the co-operation so that residents are certain of keeping process in hand, following the statement made yesterday their homes? by Southern Cross, will ensure a smooth transition of every home to a new operator over the next four months. Paul Burstow: It really is not a question of financial assistance; it is about the co-ordination of the Association Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): This will be of of Directors of Adult Social Services and the Department’s great concern to many people who live and work in regional directors of social care, who are working with homes that are not run by Southern Cross. Many other those colleagues at local authority level, and about people will be affected. The Minister has spoken about making sure that they are co-ordinating their activity regulation and care home standards. Will he bring with the Care Quality Commission. All those things are forward proposals to consider the business regulation happening, have been happening and will continue to 177 Southern Cross Care Homes 12 JULY 2011 178 happen to ensure that we do what the Government are Electricity Market Reform committed to doing—ensuring continuity of care and that people can stay in the homes they are currently in with the knowledge that the Government really are 4.20 pm committed to making sure that they have no doubt that they are not going to be thrown out on the streets as a The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change consequence of this business’s restructuring. (Chris Huhne): With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on reform of the electricity Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Minister of State market. Since privatisation in 1990, our electricity market and to colleagues. has served us well, delivering reliable, affordable electricity, but in the years ahead we face unprecedented challenges, which the existing market was not designed to meet. Over the next decade, around a quarter of our existing power stations will close, threatening the security of our electricity supplies. Some £110 billion of investment is needed to replace those plants and to upgrade the grid. That is twice the rate of investment of the last decade and the equivalent of 20 new power stations. At the same time, demand for electricity could double over the next 40 years as the population increases and as we increasingly turn to electricity for heat and transport. We also face ambitious carbon emissions and renewable energy targets as we seek to build a cleaner energy future for Britain and for the world. To achieve our goals, we need to take decisive action now to increase low-carbon electricity generation, including nuclear and renewable energy as well as carbon capture and storage. None of these challenges can be met for free. We will have to pay to secure reliable, clean electricity for the future and we cannot ignore the long-term trends in electricity prices. Increases in wholesale costs and the carbon price are likely to lead to higher bills in future, even without factoring in the huge investment in new infrastructure that is needed. It is vital that we put in place market arrangements that deliver this investment as cost-effectively as possible. The current electricity market simply is not up to the job and cannot deliver investment at the scale and pace we need. Without reform, our reserve capacity—the power plants we can call on when demand surges—will fall to uncomfortable levels. We would face a much higher risk of black-outs by the end of this decade and we would also be locked into a worrying reliance on fossil fuel imports, putting us at risk of rising and volatile prices. Consumers could end up paying more. That is why I am putting before the House today a series of measures to reform the electricity market, diversifying our generation mix and boosting investment in secure, sustainable and home-grown low-carbon technologies. There are five key elements to our reforms. First, the Chancellor announced in the Budget a new carbon price floor to put a fairer price on carbon, thereby reducing uncertainty for investors and providing a stronger incentive to invest in low-carbon generation now. Secondly, we will send a clearer message that low-carbon electricity is a key part of our future energy mix. We will introduce a new system of long-term contracts to remove uncertainty for investors and consumers and to make low-carbon energy more attractive. Contracts for difference will be introduced for all forms of low-carbon generation, lowering the cost of capital and allowing clean technologies with high up-front and low long-run costs to compete fairly against traditional unabated fossil fuels. This will build on the carbon price floor, providing the additional clarity and certainty that investors need. 179 Electricity Market Reform12 JULY 2011 Electricity Market Reform 180

[Chris Huhne] accelerate the UK’s deployment and use of renewable energy. It puts us on the path to increase our renewable Thirdly, we will introduce an emissions performance energy consumption fourfold by 2020 while driving standard to send a clear regulatory signal about the down the cost over time. Growth on that kind of scale amount of carbon that new fossil-fuel power stations will be challenging, but necessary. can emit. This will reinforce the requirement that no The road map identifies eight technologies that have new coal-fired power stations are built without carbon the greatest potential for the UK, such as offshore capture and storage, while ensuring that vital investment wind, where we have abundant natural resources and in gas can take place. Carbon capture and storage is a already have the world’s largest market. Subject to key part of our plan to decarbonise electricity generation. further value-for-money assessment, the Department is It is the only technology that can potentially reduce setting aside up to £30 million over the next four years emissions from fossil fuel-fired power stations by as to support technology development programmes to improve much as 90%. the efficiency and reduce the costs of offshore wind. Fourthly, to ensure security of supply in the future, With industry, we are setting up a taskforce to drive the we will introduce a new contracting framework for work to achieve cost-competitive offshore wind. The capacity, changing the way we secure our back-up electricity. recently published microgeneration strategy also outlines That capacity mechanism could mean centrally procuring the actions that the Government are taking to tackle the capacity that is set aside from the market and used only non-financial barriers that could prevent microgeneration when needed; or it could mean a market-wide mechanism, from realising its full potential. Together, the renewables in which all providers offering reliable capacity are road map and the microgeneration strategy, which has rewarded. Under both options, we plan to ensure fair already been published, will reduce costs for consumers, and equivalent treatment between all the different ways and enable mature renewables to compete against other of accomplishing what we seek—demand response, storage, low-carbon technologies in the longer term. interconnection with our European partners, and extra I am also publishing today the final report of the generation. Shifting or cutting demand for electricity is Ofgem review. The review reaffirms the Government’s likely to be more cost-effective than simply building commitment to a strong, independent regulator, able to more and more power plants, and complements our give confidence to investors, protect consumers and work to drive down demand through energy efficiency help meet our energy and climate targets. The summary measures such as the green deal and smart meters. of conclusions was published in May; the final report Fifthly, we will put in place transitional arrangements provides further detail on how the Government will to ensure that there is no hiatus in investment while the seek to strengthen the regulatory framework. new system is set up, and we will create new institutional arrangements to deliver the reform package. The package of reforms that I have announced today will yield the biggest transformation of the market since Together, the reforms will tackle the immense challenges privatisation. They will create an enduring framework facing the electricity market. They will put in place the for future investment, and will secure our electricity framework to deliver the capacity and demand-side supplies for the future, providing our consumers with response that we need to guarantee future security of the best deal possible, helping us meet our ambitious supply. They will encourage investment in proven low- carbon targets, and putting us at the forefront of low-carbon carbon generation technologies, and will give investors technological development, ready to lead the world in confidence that there will be a market for electricity the next energy revolution. I commend this statement to generated with commercial carbon capture and storage— the House. confidence that will drive investment in both demonstration and commercial CCS plants. Six energy companies supply around 99% of customers Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ in the UK. Alongside action by Ofgem to improve Co-op): I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight liquidity, the reforms will boost competition within the of his statement. We are pleased that he agrees with his market. They will make the UK a magnet for low-carbon predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for investment, generating jobs and growth. That will help Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), about the need energy-intensive industries. However, we are also committed for reform. The Government have already sent some to bringing forward a package of measures to ensure signals about the future shape of the UK energy market. our continued international competitiveness. The Secretary of State should be congratulated on The reforms will achieve our aims at least cost to the standing up to the fuzzier elements of his party with his consumer, with bills for households and businesses likely U-turn on nuclear, which he no longer happily describes to be lower and less volatile over the period to 2030 than as a “failed technology” but says is an essential part of if we had left the market as it is. They will enable us to the UK’s getting off the “oil hook”. The Government’s build a flexible, responsive electricity system, powered eventual acceptance of the recommendation of the by a diverse and secure range of low-carbon sources, en Committee on Climate Change in its fourth carbon route to a cleaner, greener future. The reforms insure us budget was largely welcomed by most people, even if his against fossil-fuel price shocks, end 25 years of policy colleague, the Business Secretary, was described as dithering, and will keep the lights on, and bills down. “squirming in his seat like a schoolboy” at the Cabinet Alongside the electricity market reforms, I am also meeting which discussed it. publishing today the renewables road map. For too However, the Government have failed to deliver on long, discussion about renewable energy has focused on many fronts since the Secretary of State for Energy and barriers. Now, for the first time, we have set out a Climate Change took office. Recent ill-judged Government detailed, step-by-step plan to overcome those obstacles. intervention in the energy market has already led to a The road map sets out a comprehensive action plan to hiatus in energy investment and uncertainty across all 181 Electricity Market Reform12 JULY 2011 Electricity Market Reform 182 sectors. The solar feed-in tariffs fiasco destabilised the the taxpayer, that will lead to higher than necessary solar sector and sent shockwaves through other renewable energy bills. Customers are currently getting a raw deal, sectors. Companies, including RWE, are considering so any change must support the consumer. The existing pulling out of the UK because of the uncertainty big six energy companies will undoubtedly need to caused by the Government in the investment landscape. provide in this era of new energy generation, but we That was underlined by the Pew Environment Group’s need to free up the suffocating oligopoly that stifles real report, which showed that the UK dropped from fifth competition from new energy investors. The prize is to 13th in a global ranking of countries for green driving down the cost of new energy generation and investment. We have seen a green investment bank prices and increasing real choice for consumers. The failing to deliver the necessary investment now and Secretary of State, who has been insouciant in the face being criticised by the CBI director general, John Cridland, of rising energy bills, should stop worrying so much who warned that the bank about his next meeting with the big six chief executives “certainly won’t work if it needs the Treasury’s permission to and start worrying a bit more about the consumer. blow its nose.” Will the Secretary of State please tell us exactly when There is a question mark over whether the Secretary the legislation will come before Parliament and when he of State’s proposals will deliver. The track record is not expects the reforms to be implemented? We already good. We believe that the Government must meet some have the delayed Energy Bill circling Parliament and a key tests if reform is to work. A new market needs to be renewables road map announced today—he cannot keep greener and to create certainty for industry, room for stacking up policies like waiting aircraft. I am pleased innovation in emerging energy solutions, and crucially, that he is convening a group to look at decentralised a good deal for consumers both as users of energy and energy, but can he give us more details on that? So far as taxpayers, and it must deliver the necessary investment his Department has been rolled over by the Treasury at in the UK energy sector for security of supply. every turn, so could he tell us what these changes will In the White Paper, we have a mixed bag of measures. cost the taxpayer and what he is doing to protect the There is an emissions performance standard—a policy public from unreasonable price rises? How will the that the Energy and Climate Change Committee considers, Government decide when to conduct energy auctions at the level set, and how will he ensure that all players will be able to bid “would have no material impact and is therefore pointless.” in order to reach this new dream world he talks of? I could say rather uncharitably that that sounds a little Apart from the now delayed green deal, what is his like a summary of Government green policy. Certainly, strategy for reducing energy demand? it is not popular, and already industry is puzzled about exactly what it will achieve. If we are to have an emissions Mr Speaker: Order. I am sure that the shadow Secretary performance standard, the Secretary of State needs to of State is bringing her remarks to a close, because she explain to us why it is any more than green window has exceeded her time. dressing. How will the transition to carbon capture and storage be accommodated within this measure, when we Meg Hillier: We cannot afford the dithering, delay are still awaiting not only the sign-off on project 1, but and postponement that has characterised Government the future Treasury and European funding for projects 2, policy so far. We want to support and work with the 3 and 4? Government to achieve these outcomes, but we need The proposals also include a carbon floor price, answers on those points from the Secretary of State. although we knew about that because it was announced in the Budget independently of these proposals—a running Chris Huhne: We are certainly having to play catch-up—I theme for the Department, which most of the time make no bones about it—because after 13 years of seems to be run by remote control from 11 Downing Labour Government we inherited a situation in which street. The Department has only just woken up to the the UK was ranked 25th out of the 27 European Union impact that this tax grab on industry and its potential to member states on installed renewables. The hon. Lady export businesses and their emissions overseas will have talks about the speed and dynamism exhibited by the on the UK industrial landscape. Better late than never, Opposition when they were in government, but not a but it is catch-up. single new nuclear power station has been consented to Two measures are being consulted on. A contract for since 1986, so the reality is that the track record of difference will pump public money into supporting which she boasts is entirely mythological, like some more expensive energy production—a mechanism which Grecian beast seen far off in the mists that suddenly we hear from the Secretary of State will encourage vanishes. other users into the market, but with such complex We are confident that there will enormous benefits administration, we worry, as do many businesses, that for small suppliers as a result of these changes, because small suppliers and new investors will struggle to keep it is precisely the long-term contracts that will encourage up. We also see proposals for a capacity mechanism and new entrants into the market and ensure that they have energy auctions, the devil of which will be in the detail. certainty about price, which they cannot rely on if they The right hon. Gentleman should expand on which do no understand the market as well as the big six. That technologies will deliver most benefit, what the costs to will make our market more competitive, which is a the UK will be, how the consumer will afford it, and fundamental way of ensuring that we get a better deal how we will avoid expensive stranded assets in a new for the consumer in the long run. dash for gas. The hon. Lady asked which technologies will benefit Investors need confidence, certainty and clarity. The more. We are not attempting to pick winners, unlike the White Paper could help, or it could herald an era of Opposition, evidently. We want a level playing field for overly complex and overlapping measures, paid for by all low-carbon technologies, because we recognise the 183 Electricity Market Reform12 JULY 2011 Electricity Market Reform 184

[Chris Huhne] reactors, which shows a capacity for humour that I admire. Do the Secretary of State and the Department genuine uncertainties about the development of such now have contractual details from our gas supply technologies. As we learn more about which technologies companies, which used not to be the case? That would, will be the most effective and have the lowest cost, we first, enable him to assure himself about the security of will invest more in the winners, and that will be discovered supply, not least given that we often buy gas on the spot through normal market processes. market or in the short term, and secondly, enable his When it comes to consumers, we have been clear Department to scrutinise those contracts to make sure about the need to reduce the complexity of tariffs and that when companies increase gas prices they are doing insist that every energy bill shows the lowest tariff so in ways that are fair to the customer. available from the supplier, and we have had a clear review of the retail market from Ofgem. We want Chris Huhne: The right hon. Gentleman makes a very greater competition and are encouraging new entrants good point; he is expert in this area. The Energy Bill, through all these means, in addition to the support of a which we hope will achieve Royal Assent in the autumn 67% increase in the social discount budget, compared when we come back from the recess, contains provisions with the money set aside under voluntary agreements that ensure that we are able to be informed about these by the previous Labour Government. We are helping in measures and ensure greater security of supply. He will particular those who most need help with their energy have read in the press about long-term arrangements bills, because they are the most vulnerable, and Government being contracted, for example, between Centrica and Members can be proud of that. the state of Qatar. We have a number of these longer-term New legislation will be introduced at the beginning of arrangements. Security of supply is important in physical the next Session, in May 2012. The working group on terms, and we also think about it in price terms. The decentralised energy will attempt to tackle all the different 30% increase in gas prices over the past year has been a barriers to decentralised energy, ensuring that it is able significant shock to a number of consumers. One of the to play its full part in diversifying our supply. The key to reasons we want to get to low carbon is to protect the auctioning, which I very much want us to adopt, is that economy and consumers against that sort of shock. there should be greater certainty about costs so that those who are participating in the auction are able not Mr Speaker: I always enjoy reading the Secretary of only to see that they have a reasonable chance of State’s book, but on the whole I prefer the abridged to winning but to identify their costs. the “War and Peace” version. The hon. Lady asked what measures we are taking on the reduction of energy demand. The most significant Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): As a Minister in the of those is the pioneering measure in the Energy Bill—the Department of Energy at the time of the privatisation green deal. We are the first of any of the leading G20 of the electricity industry, I have watched with concern countries to introduce this measure, which we continue as a market that had 13 participants at that time has to maintain is on course for launch in October 2012, shrunk to just six under Labour. How will my right hon. when it will be a roaring success. Friend’s proposals drive competition? Several hon. Members rose— Chris Huhne: I thank the hon. Gentleman. That is Mr Speaker: Order. A great many right hon. and hon. exactly right. The biggest feature of the market is the Members are seeking to catch my eye, but there is heavy fact that 99% of British energy consumers are served by pressure on time and I must therefore appeal for single, just six companies, and we desperately need to increase short supplementary questions without preamble and that number. The arrangements that we are announcing for comparably pithy replies from the Secretary of State. today are designed to bring new entrants into the market by providing certainty on price, because one obstacle Mr Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con): As the task of that they have is in understanding how the market attracting huge amounts of new investment into new works. Many of the new entrants will therefore be low-carbon electricity generating capacity is extremely encouraged to invest. urgent, can the Secretary of State assure us that the passage of the necessary legislation will be a top priority Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ for the Government in the next Session? Will he ensure Co-op): The Secretary of State referred to the need for a that there is as much clarity as possible about the levels “strong, independent regulator” to protect consumers. and manner of operation of the feed-in tariffs, with Given the store he places by that, is it not time that contracts for difference being available as soon as possible Ofgem looked again at the practice of door-to-door to reassure investors that it is a new, stable and predictable selling, through which many vulnerable consumers are regime? being ripped off by the big six? Chris Huhne: I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government are extremely seized of the urgency of Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. getting the legislation through during the second Session We continue to monitor that issue and are discussing it and of issuing the contracts, so that they will be on with Ofgem. We will bring forward any appropriate course and we are able—I hope—to issue the first measures when we have considered the matter. contracts in 2013. Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Carbon Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North) (Lab): I will put to charging is a tax on jobs. Why are we retarding economic one side a Liberal Democrat Secretary of State attacking recovery by introducing what is in essence a carbon tax the Labour Government for being slow to build nuclear on business and job creation? 185 Electricity Market Reform12 JULY 2011 Electricity Market Reform 186

Chris Huhne: I do not accept my hon. Friend’s analysis. protect the consumer interest. If we had not acted, we Nick Stern has described the failure to take account of would have taken so much money out of the budget the carbon consequences of our actions as the greatest that it would have affected not only small-scale solar, market failure of all time. Sometimes we have to incorporate but other renewables. It is time to end boom and bust the consequences of our actions for the environment not just in the economy but in solar panels. into the market decision. That is what we are doing. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I will skip my Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Given own anti-nuclear preamble and just congratulate the that electricity market reform will lead to windfall profits Secretary of State on his plans for an emissions performance for existing nuclear plant of at least £50 million a year standard. Does he agree that that and other parts of his and given the rising concerns about fuel poverty, of plans will in the end protect consumers from the price which the Secretary of State will be aware, will the shocks associated with fossil fuels? Government introduce a windfall tax on nuclear and use the revenue to help those living in fuel poverty? Chris Huhne: There is absolutely no doubt; my hon. Friend makes a very good point. Over the past year we Chris Huhne: The hon. Lady is referring, I think, to have had a 30% increase in the price of gas, which has the potential impact of the carbon price floor, which fed through exactly into consumers’ gas prices and into will of course begin in 2013 and then rise slowly. There electricity prices, too, because gas is such a significant will be no impact of the type that she is suggesting until part of how we generate electricity. By moving more its introduction. It must be considered alongside all the towards low-carbon sources of electricity—renewables measures we are introducing to save energy and protect and nuclear—we will insulate ourselves against such those in fuel poverty. price shocks. That is good news for the economy, good news for all businesses, whether they are in this area or Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): The Secretary of not, and good news for jobs, and I hope that it will be State will be aware of the amount of green tax that is welcomed in all parts of the House. already put on people’s energy bills. I am puzzled about why his Department will set aside £30 million of taxpayers’ Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Does money for a certain technology.Surely if we are encouraging the Secretary of State agree that a targeted capacity the market, it should be the market that puts up the mechanism almost inevitably becomes untargeted as it money and not the taxpayer. chases lagging investment? That inevitably also leads to overcapacity, at a high price. Does he accept that a Chris Huhne: There is a sound argument in economic representation market, coupled with interconnection, literature for encouraging early-stage technologies. Many storage and demand reduction arrangements, goes with British Governments have done that for many years. the grain of a low-carbon energy economy and the Green taxes are much lower than the estimates that have electricity market reform measures that he is proposing? been bandied about recently in the press. We are committed If he does, why is he holding a further consultation on to bringing forward in the annual energy statements our capacity mechanisms outside the time scale of his main estimate of the overall impact of all our policies—not proposals? Does he have no idea what a capacity mechanism only the low-carbon policies, but the energy-saving might look like, and is someone twisting his arm in the policies—on consumer bills. The last time we did that, it whole process? was estimated that in 2020 our policies would add just 1% to consumer bills, and that assumed a world in which gas prices are lower than they are today and in Mr Speaker: I was not very good at maths at school, which oil prices are only $80 a barrel, instead of $118 a but I counted five questions there. I know that the barrel. If we want to protect British consumers against Secretary of State will provide a pithy reply. the vagaries of these markets that are buffeted by events, such as those in Libya and the middle east, we have to Chris Huhne: There is a clear description in the White move to low-carbon sources of electricity. That is good Paper of the different models on which we are consulting, news for British consumers, not bad. and we are clear that there are essentially two families. One is the strategic reserve, which is effectively bought Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): by the Government and released into the market at a The Secretary of State has said little about the role of clear trigger point, and the other is a wider range of solar energy in future policy development. Representatives capacity that is bought through a generalised mechanism of the industry have told me that the Government’s for the market as a whole. Either of those targets a feed-in tariff proposals have effectively decapitated the particular level of spare capacity, because we have to industry. What discussions has he had with industry avoid blackouts in future. If the hon. Gentleman reads representatives to overcome that and promote the industry? the detail of the proposals, I think he will find them compelling. We will reach decisions by the end of the Chris Huhne: My colleagues and I have had many year. discussions with the solar industry. The hon. Gentleman should know that nobody installing less than two tennis Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I welcome this courts’ worth of solar panels has been in the least bit fundamental reform of the electricity market. To what affected by the scheme announced by the Government extent do we believe we can attract the supply chain to whom he supported. For three years, the previous the renewables sector, and is the Department working Government also made no allowance for those proposing closely with the Department for Business, Innovation to install more than two tennis courts’ worth of solar and Skills to ensure that we see an industrial benefit, panels. I make no bones about the fact that we need to not just a carbon benefit? 187 Electricity Market Reform12 JULY 2011 Electricity Market Reform 188

Chris Huhne: My hon. Friend makes a very good Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) point, and yes, we are doing that. We have an enormous (LD): The introduction of emissions performance standards potential market with a lot of expertise, particularly in is a welcome new policy, but may I ask the predictable offshore wind, as she well knows. I had the pleasure of follow-up question? Will the Secretary of State confirm opening in her company what was at the time the largest that coalition Government policy says that nuclear power offshore wind farm, quite near to her constituency. We stations will be built only if there is no public subsidy, can have an enormous supply chain, and we have to which means no greater subsidy for them, irrespective send out clear signals of our commitment, as we are of subsidies that are given to other parts of the energy doing. We are also getting the costs down to £100 per industry? megawatt hour, and we can have an enormous and effective industry. Chris Huhne: I have made it absolutely clear that Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): We all want to see an there is no public subsidy for nuclear. Let me explain affordable, secure and low-carbon supply of electricity. exactly what we are saying. At the moment, we have the On affordability and price, the Secretary of State will EU emissions trading scheme, which is designed to know that people who live in peripheral areas of the encourage low-carbon forms of activity and to discourage United Kingdom pay more for their electricity. Is there high-carbon forms of activity. I do not regard that as a anything in the White Paper that can assist them, subsidy to nuclear. I do not regard the carbon price particularly as those areas produce the electricity in the floor, which exists to support the EU emissions trading first place? scheme, as a subsidy to nuclear—I do not regard a price guarantee that is designed to get certainty for low-carbon Chris Huhne: That is a good point. One thing that generation as a subsidy to nuclear. There will be no Ofgem is currently examining is the transmission review, extra subsidy for nuclear. and we will have to wait and see. The point that I and a The only justification for giving a subsidy to a technology number of other people have been making is that in when it is out there in the market is if it is an early-stage, future, in a world in which electricity will not be generated pioneer technology, such as wave or offshore wind, that very close to centres of population—we will no longer has not reached full commercialisation. Otherwise, there be siting power stations in the middle of our cities, like should be a low-carbon, level playing field right across Battersea power station; they may instead be far away the board to discourage carbon emissions and to encourage from cities, as they will have to be where the wind blows low-carbon activity. or where the tides are—we will have to reconsider transmission charging to ensure that renewable types of energy are not penalised. That will go for distant Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): The Minister of communities as well. State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), who is on Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): The Secretary the Treasury Bench, has been kind enough to visit of State may be aware of the proposals for a wind Hartlepool and has seen for himself the huge potential park of between 900 MW and 1,200 MW covering in new nuclear and offshore wind. The statement was some 76 square miles just 10.2 miles off the coast of my good on the analysis of problems, but not so good on constituency. Many people in our area are profoundly providing solutions. What practical, tangible support concerned about that. Given that the local authorities will the Secretary of State provide to ensure that Hartlepool do not have any role in the process, is he prepared to meet can realise its vision as the European leader in energy? me and my hon. Friends the Members for Christchurch (Mr Chope), for Poole (Mr Syms) and for Bournemouth Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman is being slightly East (Mr Ellwood) so that we might discuss it with him? unfair, given that our proposal provides precisely the Chris Huhne: I would be happy to meet my hon. certainly and clarity to investors that will mean a real Friend on the subject. I caution him, however, against increase in investment in all of those low-carbon being too hostile to what is, after all, potentially a very technologies. I very much hope that his constituency interesting development that could have considerable benefits from that process. benefits not just for the country as a whole but locally. Every single energy source has its detractors, whether it Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I believe is nuclear, onshore wind turbines, offshore wind turbines, that this reform package could unlock billions of pounds natural gas or fracking. The reality is that we need to of private sector investment, and that it is critical for find our electricity from somewhere, and that includes our national security and new technology, including offshore wind farms. marine and deep geothermal energy. What analysis have the Government undertaken to estimate how much Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am very encouraged money will be unlocked by the reforms? by the Secretary of State’s response to the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) on transmission charges. Does he recognise that such charges are fundamentally Chris Huhne: Ofgem’s overall estimate is that we need discriminatory against renewables in their current form? new energy infrastructure investment across all energy Will he give an undertaking that, as part of his electricity sources, including gas, of £200 billion. In terms of plant market reform, he will finally tackle that matter? and grid connections alone for electricity, we are talking about £110 billion over the next 10 years. That is Chris Huhne: That is a responsibility for Ofgem, with roughly double the normal level of energy investment which I have had good discussions on the subject. I have that takes place in this country. That will be a significant made my position very clear—I believe that I am in source of demand to fuel the recovery, and of extra exactly the same place on this as the hon. Gentleman—and jobs, and there will be enormous opportunities for we look forward to Ofgem’s proposals with interest. growth throughout the country. 189 Electricity Market Reform12 JULY 2011 Electricity Market Reform 190

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Four million Jon Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): Many of my families heading for fuel poverty does not constitute constituents are understandably angry about increased affordability; a £200 billion shortfall in infrastructure electricity and gas prices—British Gas is a striking does not constitute security of supply; and a new dash example—so can the Secretary of State guarantee that for gas does not constitute low carbon. The Secretary of these reforms will not contribute to increased energy State knows, as the Minister of State, Department of prices in the short to medium term? Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) certainly does, that vertical Chris Huhne: It is inevitable that, given that we need integration in the big six is the biggest single problem. the new investment that we have been discussing today, Why did the Secretary of State not address that in his there will be a cost. The energy companies are not the statement, and when will he do so to break up the Salvation Army. They do not do things out of altruism; monopoly of the big six? they do them because they are going to reach a rate of return on capital. However, I can assure the hon. Gentleman Chris Huhne: I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman’s of this: if he looks at the detail in the White Paper, he expertise in this area, but slightly less respect for the will see that our proposals will reduce costs to the passion with which he tries to hold this Government to consumer compared to leaving the market as it is. account. Given that no type of electricity-generating Central to our ambition is ensuring that we have affordable, plant can be built in less than 18 months—if I am not low-cost electricity and that we protect British consumers entirely incorrect, the Government in power 18 months from the vagaries of past years—with the 30% increase ago were a Labour Government—the idea that any in gas prices and a corresponding increase in electricity enormous shortfall in infrastructure investment is down prices. to this Government is far-fetched. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): My right Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Given the Secretary hon. Friend will be aware of the successful Pulse Tidal of State’s comments about fluctuations in the price of project in the Humber. Will he assure the House that, as imported fossil fuels, does he recognise the strategic the Government move forward, tidal will remain a key importance of UK Coal and the market to delivering priority for them and that funding will be secured for flexible electricity via carbon capture and storage? Will investment so that that investment does not go overseas? he undertake to work with the UK coal industry so that it can assist in solving the problems in which we find Chris Huhne: Tidal power is exciting and has great ourselves? prospects. We have some enormously important potential sites for tidal stream—for example, the area around the Chris Huhne: The ministerial team are committed to Severn barrage—and I am confident that as the technology bringing on CCS, which will provide a place in the long progresses it will play an important part in our energy mix. term for coal to continue to meet our energy needs. The Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): In the Secretary Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate of State’s statement, there is one mention of nuclear Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden power, but I do not recall him mentioning it at all when (Charles Hendry), who has responsibility for energy, is he delivered it. Putting that aside, does he not accept meeting representatives from the coal industry tomorrow that the industry needs certainty, otherwise there is a to discuss precisely this matter. danger that the investment will go elsewhere? Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): In addition to what Chris Huhne: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. has been said about the British deep-mine coal industry, Investors need certainty and clarity, and that is what we does the Energy Secretary agree that it will play a are giving them today. crucial role in future electricity generation in the UK? If so, what sort of assistance can he give to ensure the Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I warmly welcome my survival of the UK coal industry? right hon. Friend’s statement. On decentralised energy, does he agree, particularly with regard to onshore wind, Chris Huhne: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that that the sooner it is enabled, the sooner we can overcome coal is an important part of our energy mix now and the innate reluctance of many communities to accept it going forward, which is why we have found £1 billion in and ensure that they can share in the benefits? the comprehensive spending review to fund CCS. Indeed, there has been a substantial increase in deep-mine coal Chris Huhne: I agree with my hon. Friend about the over the past year. importance of community schemes. That message has come clearly from the successful schemes, particularly Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): My those north of the border. He is absolutely right to constituents in Suffolk Coastal, which I christened the point out that when the community has a clear stake in “green coast” in my maiden speech, will be very happy a proposal, it is much more likely to back it. with the announcement of these reforms. Given those announcements, will the Secretary of State indicate Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): The when something such as Sizewell C might be built? United Nations environment programme has found that investment in large-scale renewables in China reached Chris Huhne: The first of the new power stations is at $49 billion last year, whereas in Europe it fell by 22% to Hinkley point—construction of the earthworks is already $35 billion. Where will the Secretary of State find the under way—and the others will arrive in fairly short capital to drive the expansion in the offshore wind order after that. There will be a further opportunity to sector, given that the green investment bank is having its consider that in detail during the debate on the national borrowing and lending powers so badly restricted by policy statements on Monday. the Treasury? 191 Electricity Market Reform12 JULY 2011 Electricity Market Reform 192

Chris Huhne: The achievements in the low-carbon address, and that is what he has answered in the interim sector in China are quite extraordinary, and the hon. report and will answer in the final report. Gentleman has cited one of them. However, I do not agree that we will have a problem with capital shortage. Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I If we provide the certainty and clarity that we are wonder whether the Secretary of State is aware that providing, we will find the investment. It is also very there has been a proposal in my constituency for a tidal noticeable—I hope that he has noticed this—that the barrage for the last 20 years. Is there anything in the green investment bank will begin to borrow and lend proposals that will finally allow such developments to from 2015, and that the biggest investment in many of compete on a level playing field with proposals for our renewables programmes will come in the latter part wind? of this decade, so the green investment bank will be there in time to help. Chris Huhne: That is one of the technologies that we are taking forward in the renewables road map, and I Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Many of us want to make progress on it. We have a considerable believe that there is currently an over-dependence on resource in that technology, which we want to develop onshore wind to achieve the Government’s low-carbon further right the way around the United Kingdom’s sea targets. The mid-Wales uplands are under threat of frontier. being desecrated through industrialisation by a plethora of multiple wind farms. Does the Secretary of State Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Whatever other concerns agree that cumulative impact and high landscape value the Secretary of State might try to refute in relation to should be material planning considerations in deciding the carbon floor price, he cannot dispute the fact that if on onshore wind projects? levied in Northern Ireland, it would have a hugely distorting impact on the single electricity market—which Chris Huhne: I accept the position that my hon. is based in statute north and south in Ireland, with its Friend has taken on the particular proposals that affect own regulatory framework—and remove the very certainty his area. All I would say is that by comparison with and clarity for investors, the need for which he has said other renewable technologies, onshore wind is a tested, his reforms are addressing. Does he recognise not only effective and affordable technology. It is the lowest-cost that the carbon floor price will harm consumers and renewable technology available in these islands, and it industry in Ireland, but that distorting the single electricity produces electricity at a similar cost to first-of-a-kind market at this stage would damage the prospect of this nuclear power stations. However, I return to what I said island harnessing offshore energy from Ireland in the earlier to my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth future? West (Conor Burns) about energy sources. It so happens that every energy source has its detractors. As I view Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that wind turbines as beautiful, I hope that we will not find the electricity market arrangements in Northern Ireland opposition all over the country to what is a cheap and are quite distinct from those in England, Scotland and effective source of energy for our consumers. Wales. There is effectively a single market between Northern Ireland and the Republic, and we need to be Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Post Fukushima, aware of and respect that. I gather that discussions are many of our competitor countries in Europe are planning ongoing at official level and elsewhere to ensure that nuclear-free futures, mainly because of the increased there are no unintended consequences of the changes cost that Fukushima has created, by making nuclear that we introduce. reactors uninsurable, with a possible bill of hundreds of billions of pounds afterwards. Is it not irresponsible to Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Feed-in tariffs go ahead with the plans in Britain without any reassessment are proving effective in encouraging people to generate of cost? Weightman is not allowed to consider that. Can their own renewable energy. Will the Secretary of State the Minister really say that he is going ahead without look at how they could also be used to encourage the subsidy? He seemed to be saying today, “We’re going to use of negawatts—that is, energy saved—to give people have subsidies for all nuclear and new nuclear, but call an additional cash incentive to ensure that their homes them something else.” are warm and snug, and well insulated so that they do not waste energy? Chris Huhne: No, the hon. Gentleman is wrong on that. We are setting out a framework to discourage Chris Huhne: We have been clear in the White Paper high-carbon activities and encourage low-carbon activities. on electricity market reform published today that we We do not make any technological judgment about how want to encourage demand-side response. My hon. those particular things proceed. The hon. Gentleman is Friend makes the good point that, in an ideal world, we right that Germany, Italy and Japan have all announced would move beyond the temporary switching off of either moratoriums or pauses for new nuclear construction. demand in order to close the gap between demand and However, it would be wrong to jump to the conclusion supply and adopt the practice of paying people to that costs will necessarily increase in those circumstances, reduce overall demand at all times. We are working on because obviously if there is less demand for some of that, and we show awareness of that matter in the White the components in nuclear power stations, the normal Paper. This is a holy grail, however, and we have not yet economics would tell us that their price might fall, so found a way of doing that without opening up the the process might become cheaper. However, I can possibility of wholesale fraud and other problems, but assure him that we will bear safety in mind first and it is a good, interesting idea and we would like to look at foremost. That is what I asked Mike Weightman to it further. 193 12 JULY 2011 Points of Order 194

Points of Order a certain amount of letting off steam in points of order, but the simple factual position is that this is not a 5.11 pm matter for the Chair. The hon. Gentleman asked a normative question about what the rule should be. That Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): On a is a matter for the House to decide; I have no power in point of order, Mr Speaker. On 7 March, the Prime these matters. It is commonplace for some notice to be Minister stood with the chairman of Bombardier and given, but that is not an unfailing practice. It is for the said: Member in charge of the motion to decide on the timing “I am bringing the Cabinet to Derby today with one purpose—to of its tabling, in keeping with such rules of the House as do everything we can to help businesses in the region create the apply, but there has been no breach of order in this case. jobs and growth on which the future of our economy depends.” The concern has been registered and will have been People are now asking whether the Prime Minister heard— already knew that his Government were planning to give the Thameslink order to Germany, costing thousands Oliver Heald rose— of jobs, so I asked the Prime Minister in a written question when he knew the outcome of the procurement. Mr Speaker: In a moment. The hon. Gentleman has His reply, tabled yesterday, does not answer the question, had one bite; he must not be too greedy. I call Mr John but refers to an irrelevant answer to a different question McDonnell. tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby South (Margaret Beckett). Is there anything that you John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): On a can do, Mr Speaker, to get the Prime Minister to give a point of order, Mr Speaker. A letter has gone from the factual answer to a factual question, or should we Ministry of Justice today to chief probation officers assume that he has something to hide? around the country informing them that the core functions of probation services are to be put out to tender. This is Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the wholesale privatisation of probation services—possibly for his point of order and for giving me advance notice the most significant change in probation practice in this of it. He came into the House long before I did; he is a country since the service’s foundation. There has been seasoned campaigner and a man of great wisdom and no ministerial statement or written ministerial statement, experience. He will therefore know that I am not so may I through you, Mr Speaker, suggest to the responsible—I say this with some relief—for anything Government that this matter is of such import that that the Prime Minister might say or do. That is well there should have been at least a written ministerial beyond my ken. The right hon. Gentleman has placed statement on it? his concerns on the record, and I am sure that he will find other methods, through the use of the Order Paper Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for and other parliamentary processes, of further registering his point of order and for advance notice of it. The his views and probing the Prime Minister. short answer to the query he raised and the concern he expressed is that I have not been informed of any oral Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): On a point of statement on this matter today. I had understood—and, order, Mr Speaker. I am seeking your guidance because at the time of speaking, I do understand—that there we are due to have an Opposition day debate tomorrow will be a written ministerial statement from the Ministry whose title is as yet totally unspecified. That means that of Justice about public bodies, but I have not seen the members of the public who wish to attend the debate contents of it. I say what I do with some care because it will have had no notice of the subject, and hon. Members is my best understanding at the moment. If I am wrong who might wish to prepare for the debate have no or if the hon. Gentleman is dissatisfied, he can return to cognisance of it. I understand that 48 hours notice is the matter. I am sure that he will in any case find other normally given of such debates and their titles. May we ways of pursuing it. seek your guidance on why that courtesy is not being extended to us? Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con) rose— Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Further Mr Speaker: No day would be complete without a to that point of order, Mr Speaker. point of order from the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash). We will come to him; I am saving him up; we look Mr Speaker: If it is on the same matter, I call Mr Oliver forward to hearing him. Heald. John McDonnell: Further to that point of order, Oliver Heald: Thank you, Mr Speaker. For some Mr Speaker. The only statement that has come out hours, the PoliticsHome website has been reporting today has been the consultation paper on reforms proposed details of the wording of tomorrow’s motion, yet when in the Public Bodies Bill. The probation service is not I went to inquire where the motion was, I found a queue covered by that Bill or by the paper itself. I want to of Members doing the same thing and we were told that emphasise again, through you, Mr Speaker, that this is a it had not yet been tabled. Should not the rule be that significant matter that warrants a ministerial statement the motion is tabled here first and then put into the of some sort. media? Is it not time that the recommendation of the Wright Committee that 48 hours notice should always Mr Speaker: There are other ways of pursuing the be given was referred to the Procedure Committee? matter. The hon. Gentleman can do so through the use of the Order Paper. I add that we have business questions Mr Speaker: I note what the hon. Gentleman has said on Thursday, so if there is no route before then that in support of the point of order raised by the hon. satisfies the hon. Gentleman, I will look out for him on Member for St Albans (Mrs Main). There is inevitably that occasion. 195 Points of Order 12 JULY 2011 196

Oliver Heald: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given National Debt Cap that the Opposition motion is likely to be Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order “That this House believes that it is in the public interest for No. 23) Rupert Murdoch and News Corporation to withdraw their bid for BSkyB”, would it be in order for the shadow Leader of the 5.19 pm House to rise and tell us whether that is the case, as Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): I beg to move, doing so would be a courtesy to the House? That leave be given to bring in a Bill to set a legal cap on the amount of outstanding net Government debt as a percentage of Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is a persistent and gross domestic product; and for connected purposes. indefatigable fellow, but I need to say two things to him. Before I came to this House, I worked as an international First, that is not the way we go about the confirmation bond trader and structurer. One of my roles was to of business in this place. Secondly, although it is advise Governments that had gone bust. The Governments extraordinarily generous of the hon. Gentleman to of Mexico in 1994, Thailand and Indonesia in 1997, refer me to the PoliticsHome website, I am not among Russia in 1998 and Argentina in 2001 believed that [Interruption.] those who browse it with any frequency. investors had an insatiable appetite for their bonds, “Very wise” says a Government Whip on the Treasury regardless of their ability to pay. The consequences Bench; I suppose Government Whips know about these were devastating. matters. I think it was the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) who volunteered that helpful advice For the benefit of Members who might be tempted to to me. write off sovereign defaults as a developing world problem, let me cite Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Portugal and—very Mr Cash: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Have the soon, perhaps—Spain and Italy. Had we not had a change problems with the Division bells in Portcullis House of Government 14 months ago, we could have been been sorted out? Would you be good enough to look engulfed in a sovereign debt crisis of our own. Although into the matter, Mr Speaker, as last night a number of the coalition Government have restored fiscal probity, it problems led to significant delay. Has it been sorted out; would have been far better if we had not been taken to is the root cause being investigated? the brink in the first place. That is why I believe that one idea that we could usefully pinch from our American Mr Speaker: I was not aware that there was a problem; friends is that of a debt ceiling. Despite the political I am now. I hope that there is not still a problem. I have debate that America’s debt ceiling has provoked in known the hon. Gentleman for at least 13 or 14 years Washington—indeed, precisely because of it—Britain and the thought that he might, as a result of some should set a cap on its net national debt as a percentage failure, miss a vote is something that saddens me. Whether of GDP. the same would be said of him by the Government As in the United States, net public debt has soared in Whips is a matter of legitimate speculation and conjecture. the United Kingdom over the past decade, rising from We will leave it there for today. £312 billion to £920 billion, or from 31% of GDP to 60%. Of course, some of that was due to fiscal stabilisers resulting from the recent financial crisis, but most of it was due to a failure of government. Instead of trying to find solutions to long-term challenges to the public finances, the previous Government took the easy way out, believing that the answer to every problem was to spend more money. Had that excessive public spending led to hugely improved public services, perhaps the previous Government could have been forgiven, but in many cases it made things worse rather than better. Under the previous Government, welfare spending increased from £149 billion to £218 billion, yet the number of workless households increased from 3.7 million to 3.9 million. Under the previous Government, health spending increased from £58 billion to £117 billion, yet England shamefully lags behind virtually every other European country for cancer and stroke survival rates. Under the previous Government, education spending increased from £50 billion to £87 billion, yet, according to the OECD’s world rankings, over the past decade Britain fell from seventh in the world for reading to 25th, from seventh in the world for maths to 27th, and from fourth in the world for science to 16th. In short, under the previous Government Britain has had Scandinavian levels of public spending but Mediterranean levels of service. Such an attitude to excessive debt was not only economically wrong, but morally corrupt. Politicians have no right to pass the buck to the younger generation by ducking the tough decisions now. Why should our children pay for our mistakes? 197 National Debt Cap12 JULY 2011 National Debt Cap 198

Britain would not be the only country in Europe to will always opt for the latter, but my Bill would require adopt legal fiscal constraints. Germany passed a debt the Government of the day to make their case openly in brake law in 2009 to cap the federal deficit at a conservative Parliament and to explain to the nation as a whole 0.35% of GDP by 2016. Switzerland also has a debt exactly why they believe they need to borrow more. brake, and France’s lower house voted just last month There will need to be a vote, and MPs will have to to pursue a similar idea. According to the International explain their decision to their constituents. For any Monetary Fund, as many as 80 countries now operate Government conscious of their duty, let alone their fiscal rules, whereas just seven operated them in 1990. popularity, the disincentive to doing this should not be Some Governments, however, are determined to learn underestimated. My Bill will, at the very minimum, the hard way that the markets will impose a limit on force a national conversation where previously there has state borrowing, just as they do on individuals and been only stealth and obfuscation. companies. The recent bail-outs of Greece, Ireland and Nation states have rightly used public debt as a fiscal Portugal show what happens when Governments ignore tool for centuries. Britain’s debt has been both far that fundamental truth, and act as though investors had higher and far lower than it is now, but it has never been no choice but to buy their bonds. Clearly, market discipline more unsustainable. I believe that restoring Britain’s is not enough to hold back reckless state spending. By fiscal rectitude is the calling of this generation of politicians, the time the market itself says no, it is too late. and the time to start is now. Despite the Government’s efforts, Britain’s inherited economic problem is such that it will take at least 5.28 pm another four years to eliminate the structural budget deficit. As a result, net national debt will peak at 71% of John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): It is always a joy to GDP in 2014. The coalition Government have not shied listen to new Members coming up with old ideas, or old from tough decisions and have embarked on a major Members coming up with new ideas, and here we have a programme of public sector reforms, but what is to stop new Member eagerly supported by many of the new a future Government reverting to unrestrained borrowing? generation of Tory MPs—a generation who fundamentally Thankfully we do not live in a one-party state, and it is hate the concept of the public sector and Government. possible that one day we may have a Government who The tradition they— are less economically literate than the current one; so why do we not make it harder for a future Government Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): There is to create a mess in the first place? A debt cap is no no one behind you, John! guarantee against fiscal irresponsibility, but it will certainly make it harder for politicians to rely on their favourite John Mann: Well, my right hon. Friend the Member ruse of “Buy now, pay later”. for Blackburn (Mr Straw) is one of the few who would Although my Bill would leave it to the Treasury to set be able to pray in aid the key point I am about to make the cap level, I think that fixing it at about 40% of GDP about previous debates. I am sure the hon. Member for would be appropriate. There is nothing particularly Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) would love to pray in aid some significant about that figure, but, given my 20 years of of the past figures of the right, such as Margaret experience, I believe it would be a sensible place at Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and Winston Churchill, but which to begin the debate. unfortunately for him there is only one politician whom he can pray in aid on the proposition of capping the The start date for the cap would have to be set at national debt, and he is a Labour politician; or rather, some point in the future, perhaps 10 years from now, he was a Labour politician but he switched sides. His but that would in no way diminish the effectiveness of son was once the MP for Bassetlaw, and his name was the cap. Indeed, knowing the goal a decade in advance MacDonald: Ramsay MacDonald. At that time, a failure would provide the Government with a clear and consistent to understand basic economics led to the formation of a downward target. national Government and to John Maynard Keynes Ideally, the cap should include off-balance sheet liabilities having to rescue those who were stuck in the failed logic such as unfunded public sector pensions and private of the gold standard and everything that emanated finance initiative schemes. Following the creation of the from that. A similar constraint on Government action independent Office for Budget Responsibility, this was rejected between 1980 and 1984 by Ronald Reagan, Government are leading the way in trying to assess the who in fact did exactly the opposite. Such a constraint amount of such “hidden” public debt. Indeed, tomorrow was also rejected by Margaret Thatcher between 1979 the OBR is set to publish the whole of Government and the end of the 1980s. Although she did many things accounts for the first time in Britain’s history, and that wrong, she did not accept this fundamental concept and is likely to estimate such debt at over £l trillion. Once a she failed to shrink the state. suitable method to measure such liabilities becomes Such a constraint was also rejected by Winston Churchill, more commonly accepted, perhaps they, too, can be and that example is perhaps the most relevant. Can we included in a revised cap. imagine being sat here in 1939? Luckily, Keynes had by Without proper enforcement, good intentions count then won the argument against Ramsay MacDonald for little, so the OBR should be given the task of and the Labour traitors who formed the national monitoring compliance with the cap. Should the cap be Government on the flexibility of economic policy. Hitler violated, the Government would be given a fixed period was determined to invade this country, as well as the to remedy the situation. Failing that, the Government rest of Europe, and we were required to spend to defend would be forced, by law, to repurchase Government ourselves. Can we imagine our being hamstrung by a bonds early, thereby reducing net outstanding debt. requirement to change legislation to allow this country Nevertheless, critics will say that faced with the prospect to spend money from the public purse in order, rightly, of cutting spending or raising the cap, a Government to defend ourselves? Now we see the shaking of heads 199 National Debt Cap 12 JULY 2011 200

[John Mann] Sir Malcolm Jack KCB by those on the Government Benches, because the 5.34 pm argument has been lost—I will demonstrate precisely why they have lost the intellectual and economic argument. The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George In 1999, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy Young): I beg to move, and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) decided to pay off some That Mr Speaker be requested to convey to Sir Malcolm Jack of the national debt. Which bits of it was he paying off? KCB, on his retirement from the office of Clerk of this House, the House’s gratitude for his long and distinguished career, for his He was paying off national debt from the Napoleonic wise contribution to the development of the procedure of the wars, which went back nearly 200 years, to a time when, House and to close understanding among the Parliaments of again, there was a national crisis and a wise Government the Commonwealth, for his leadership and professionalism in the determined that this country should spend to defend discharge of his duties as chief executive of the House, and for the itself. So, we see the naivety of the would-be Reaganites courteous and helpful advice always given to individual honourable and Thatcherites, who are, in fact, the MacDonaldites. Members. They would restrict our ability to act at times of crisis I hope that we will now move on to more consensual on the economy, they would reject the wisdom of Keynes territory. and they would opt purely for the logic that Milton It is a pleasure to move the motion and lead the Friedman adopted and tried out in 1973 in Chile—the tributes today to Sir Malcolm Jack. A hundred years people there were the only ones after Ramsay MacDonald ago, my great-grandfather, Sir Courtenay Ilbert, was to attempt this economic philosophy. That is what the Clerk of the House. Among the tributes that were paid motion proposes. to him as he stood down in 1921—coincidentally, the I have learned over the years in this place that it is last time the House applauded the services of an outgoing sometimes best that these arguments are had and then Clerk during a coalition Government—was this, from left to rest, particularly as we reach the summer recess. Asquith,: This is such an unwise proposition that I shall resist “he has sat in that chair, the duties of which are more arduous, even the temptation of allowing a vote on it and, thus, more responsible, and more delicate than the world outside giving it credibility. knows, and I am sure that I am expressing the universal opinion Question put and agreed to. of the House when I say that he has worthily maintained its great traditions”.—[Official Report, 15 March 1921; Vol. 139, c. 1258.] Ordered, Those words ring as true today as they did then. That Sajid Javid, Mr Frank Field, Mark Garnier, Sir Malcolm was appointed Clerk and chief executive Matthew Hancock, Joseph Johnson, Mr David Laws, of the House in 2006 and has seen the House administration Andrea Leadsom, Jesse Norman, Claire Perry, Mr John through a period of great change. The recommendations Redwood, Mr David Ruffley and Nicholas Soames of Sir Kevin Tebbit’s review of the management and present the Bill. services of the House were challenging, but Sir Malcolm Sajid Javid accordingly presented the Bill. saw immediately that half measures would not do: the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on challenges had to be tackled immediately and it was his Friday 20 January 2012 and to be printed (Bill 218). persuasion and energy that ensured that considerable structural change took place that streamlined the House’s governance, reduced the number of House Departments and resulted in a more efficient service for Members and indeed members of the public. That reflected the administrative half of the twin responsibilities that we give the Clerk of the House. The ancient role of the Clerk is to be our principal constitutional adviser and our chief expert on all aspects of our business. I say “the ancient role”, but more recent events have shown the importance of the Clerk’s independence. Sir Malcolm’s grave warnings that provisions in the Parliamentary Standards Bill in 2009 might lead to judicial incursion into matters that are exclusively ours, and his measured advocacy of an alternative course, obliged the then Government to withdraw that whole part of the Bill. “Parliamentary privilege” is an often misunderstood term but we all understand how important it is to our right of free speech. Sir Malcolm is acknowledged as a great authority on such matters and I have no doubt that his expertise in all the procedures of this House will be on show in the eagerly awaited 24th edition of “Erskine May”, of which he is the editor and which will be officially published tomorrow—yours, Mr Speaker, for just £267. Sir Malcolm’s family and background have been cosmopolitan. He was educated in Hong Kong before university in the UK. He is one of the few of our Clerks 201 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB12 JULY 2011 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB 202 who speak Cantonese. He cuts an elegant figure, no pay his salary. In 1723, Thomas Ward made some doubt partly attributable to the many lengths he swims extremely disobliging comments about King George I almost every day at 4 Millbank. Indeed, when he was and for his pains was whipped around Palace Yard—the Clerk of the Agriculture Committee he was known as ancient equivalent of appearing before one of our more “the most elegant man ever to don Wellington boots”. vigorous Select Committees. Later that century, Lucas He has been a great champion of our links with overseas Kenn was attacked in Cornhill, losing his wig and hat in Parliaments, particularly within the Commonwealth and the process, by a group who had just given evidence to a especially in Africa. He deserves our thanks for the House Committee and wanted their documents back. I links that he has nurtured with many African Parliaments am glad to say that since then the pen and the tongue and the support and guidance he has given them, which have replaced the fist and the whip but they are just as I know they have much appreciated, most recently in sharp in their own way. the seminars in Malawi last year and Tanzania earlier Having joined the Commons Clerks Department straight this year. About Sir Malcolm’s appearance in a Masai from university in 1967, Sir Malcolm has seen it all—from warrior’s robe at the Commonwealth parliamentary the Agriculture Committee, as we have just heard, to conference in Nairobi last year perhaps little should be the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform, and said, but I am told that photographic proof is available from Ways and Means to the House of Commons for a modest fee. Commission. Sir Malcolm’s perspicacity and that watchful By profession Sir Malcolm is a philosopher as well as eye of his, peering over the table—that is what I will a Clerk and has published learned books and articles on always recall—will have escaped few Members’ notice philosophical subjects. He has put this into practice over the past 44 years. As we have heard, he has been here. When he was a Clerk in the Table Office, a very keen to share our experience with parliamentarians Member trapped his hand in a filing cabinet. Others across the Commonwealth and the world, and to learn present in the room looked on with interest. “Can’t you from them. His influence may be greater even than we do something?” the unfortunate Member asked, “I’m in suppose. I am advised that when attending the physical pain.” Malcolm decided to be helpful, “Ah,” he Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference in Arusha said, “metaphysical pain is far worse.” in 2009, he was being driven by the Clerk of the Kenyan Parliament from Nairobi—an extremely gruelling He is also credited with what his colleagues know as journey—when in the middle of nowhere they had a flat “Jack’s law”, which states that mentioning the name of tyre. While gloomily contemplating the problem, they a person ensures the appearance of that person and, were astonished by the sudden appearance of a priest, moreover, the speed of the appearance is in direct who had presumably been summoned telepathically by proportion to how disparagingly the person has been Sir Malcolm. As well as providing spiritual guidance, described. the priest managed to change the tyre and they continued Sir Malcolm’s “Who’s Who” entry gives a remarkable their journey. list of recreations, including, Throughout his career, as well as giving sound advice “thinking for oneself…empires adrift, Johnsoniana”— and service, Sir Malcolm has found time to write widely Samuel, I think, rather than Boris— on subjects far removed from Parliament. He has written “oriental ceramics, Africana, escaping southwards.” about the 18th-century politician and philosopher Bernard Mandeville, who first talked about the division of labour, We rejoice with Sir Malcolm that escaping southwards and about Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, who once will soon be much easier. We thank him for his 44 years’ wrote a political periodical entitled the “Nonsense of devoted service to the House, culminating in five years Common-Sense”, which I am sure Sir Malcolm will as Clerk of the House, and we send him and his partner have heard from hon. Members of the House from time Robert Borsje our warmest good wishes for the future. to time. Yet, from his seat at the desk he has offered quiet, wise and courageous advice—never more so than 5.40 pm in the wake of the expenses crisis, as the Leader of the House has recalled. At that time, he reminded us all that Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): It is with great our freedoms as a Parliament—for that is what privilege pleasure that I rise to support this motion on behalf of is for—should not be cast aside in haste. Those freedoms the Opposition, although it is a pity that Sir Malcolm is are far too precious for that. I hope that he will cast an not here, for obscure reasons of tradition, to savour our eye over the draft Bill on parliamentary privilege when praise. Oppositions do, from time to time, create a bit of it finally makes its appearance. trouble for the Government of the day, and in doing so we are always very helpfully advised by the Clerk of the In his letter informing the House of his intention to House, who equally helpfully advises the Government step down, Sir Malcolm said that on how to avoid the trouble. That is the skill of the “members’...duties…will necessarily ruffle and disturb the peace Clerk—to offer guidance without fear or favour in the of consensus”. interests of our democracy—and that is exactly what I hope that we will promise Sir Malcom that we will all Sir Malcolm has done with resolute distinction and do our best to heed that advice, aided and abetted by great wisdom. the new edition of “Erskine May” that we are all eagerly In addition to the achievements that the Leader of anticipating. the House has recalled, Sir Malcolm has seen this place I am sure that the House will agree with what in and through turmoil—no more so than two years Sir Malcolm said recently: ago, but however bad that was, some of his predecessors “One of the best features of the job is that I never know exactly have had a much tougher time. At the end of the 1500s, what the day will bring”. the Clerk had his own expenses troubles: he was so out That is one of the joys of this place, and I am sure that of pocket that Members had to pass round the hat to the same will be true of his retirement. It is with great 203 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB12 JULY 2011 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB 204

[Hilary Benn] As many will recall, Malcolm weighed in tenaciously with objections. Even with the usual assistance available and heartfelt thanks that, on behalf of the Opposition, to Ministers to enable them to take the intellectual high I join the Leader of the House in offering our best ground in debate—heavy whipping, arm-twisting, promises wishes to Sir Malcolm and his partner, Robert Borsje, to recalcitrants of overseas trips—my task was doomed for their future. to failure. To every argument that I advanced from the Dispatch Box, the advice of the Clerk of the House was 5.45 pm quoted back at me as holy writ. It was a hopeless task. The result of the Division was Straw, Jack 247; Jack, Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con): I have Malcolm 250. He won, I lost and the Bill, it must be had the honour of serving in this House for a high said, was much better for it. If ever Malcolm had proportion of the years in which our retiring Clerk has needed, which he did not, an expression of complete served, and I am pleased to have the opportunity to confidence in him by the House, that was it. attest to the enormous work that he has done at various I know, too, from my many friends among the staff in levels, giving sagacious and good-humoured advice the House that Malcolm is held in enormous respect throughout. His knowledge of this place is such that we and affection by them. He has carried his duties with a should perhaps hope that his memoirs will be confined light touch and ready humour. I have great pleasure in to the next edition of “Erskine May”, rather than endorsing the motion of gratitude to Sir Malcolm, and branching out into any other form. I offer him my deep personal thanks and every good I pay special tribute to Sir Malcolm for the devotion wish in his retirement. that he has shown to a matter beyond the immediate needs of the House: the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. To take up what my right hon. Friend the 5.50 pm Leader of the House said, Sir Malcolm has understood, Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): It is a during his time as Clerk, that Parliament is seen very pleasure to offer, from the Liberal Democrat Benches, much as a central feature of the whole Commonwealth support for the motion in recognition of the work of parliamentary structure. He has put himself out at all Sir Malcolm Jack. Forty-four years is an extraordinarily times to ensure that the Clerks’ department and long time in the service of the House. I always find it hon. Members are actively engaged in discussions and worrying when people who have been here longer than I liaison with other parliamentary associations across have leave, for one reason or another. Like policemen the Commonwealth. That is an important part of getting younger, it is a reminder of things one does not parliamentary activity, though not, perhaps, the one want to know about. most noticed by the public. He has played a great role in strengthening those parliamentary connections, and we Sir Malcolm arrived here from a background which should be grateful to him for that. It is fitting that was, in those days, not conventional, and all the better towards the climax of his parliamentary career he will, for that. He had been educated at school in Hong Kong alongside you, Mr Speaker, play a pivotal part in the and attended Liverpool university where he got a first centennial conference of the Commonwealth Parliamentary class degree. It is a model not sufficiently followed, Association in London later this month. perhaps, even in subsequent years and one to which we should return to draw a wide breadth of talent into the service of the House. It was certainly not a mistake to 5.47 pm recruit that Liverpool university graduate—quite the Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I apologise to the contrary. It was a very wise move. House for departing as soon as I have spoken, but I am In the course of Sir Malcolm’s time here, it has been a due to give the Gareth Williams memorial lecture in pleasure to be able to talk to a scholar of achievement Gray’s Inn at 6 o’clock; I shall be late. and repute, which marks him out, and that has been of The Clerks of the House are the guardians of our great benefit to us. But the line in the motion that most procedure and—with you, Mr Speaker—our rights and appeals to me is the reference to his “courteous and privileges. Happily, we take the work of the Clerks for helpful advice”. If the right hon. Member for Blackburn granted, their encyclopaedic knowledge as a given, and (Mr Straw) self-deprecatingly described himself as the their efficiency as the norm. We would, however, soon fool who started the argument with Sir Malcolm Jack, I notice the difference if the Clerks did not excel at their was the slightly wiser man who sought his advice. It was work. None has excelled more in his dedication, the Justice Committee which asked the Clerk of the commitment and skill than Sir Malcolm Jack, Clerk House to give us evidence, took that evidence from him, since 2006, to whom we pay tribute this afternoon. published it in a report and made it available to the I have been in this place for long enough, but Malcolm House so that it had a powerful effect on the Parliamentary had been a Clerk for 12 years before I arrived. In the Standards Act 2009. I think we all acknowledge how 32 years in which our services have coincided, I have important it was to protect the rights of our constituents come to know Malcolm well, and to regard him as a that are embodied in that unhelpful phrase, “parliamentary friend. The Leader of the House and the shadow Leader privilege”, a subject on which he has a surpassing of the House were sensitive enough not to mention knowledge. which fool was Sir Malcolm’s adversary over the While supplying that “courteous and helpful advice” Parliamentary Standards Bill in 2009, but it was I. I and doing the things that Clerks traditionally do, had, in good faith, judged necessary a modest little Sir Malcolm was continuing a process by which the provision putting a gloss on that most sacred of rights, Clerk of the House became the chief executive of the parliamentary privilege, to ensure that the Independent House—a pretty challenging process and one in which Parliamentary Standards Authority could work better. he has helped us significantly. It is a process that will 205 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB12 JULY 2011 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB 206 continue under his distinguished successor, and its difficulties Forty-four years of service. Can one understand that? and challenges must not be underestimated. The fact Sir Malcolm was in the House under the Speakership of that Sir Malcolm coped well with those is a mark of the Horace Maybray King, who was in the Chair when I respect in which we now hold him and is a further and first came to the House in the 1950s. Sir Malcolm sat on particularly compelling reason why we should thank the House of Commons Commission for almost five him for his service to the House and wish him much years. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed happiness, enjoyment and scholarship in the future. referred to the fact that Sir Malcolm moved from Clerk of the House to become its first chief executive. He understood that the Commission is an intrinsic part of 5.53 pm the workings of Parliament under your chairmanship, Mr Speaker. Its work is, for the most part, as the right Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): I am grateful hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed will understand, for the opportunity to follow the right hon. Member for unsung and unnoticed, but none the less invaluable. Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who was a member As the Leader of the House said, Sir Malcolm saw of the House of Commons Commission for 17 years. I the need for the changes recommended by Sir Kevin did not get anywhere near his record. I served only Tebbit and he brought them about. His work might 10 years on the Commission. have been unnoticed until the famous expenses scandal. It is a pleasure to catch the Speaker’s eye because this As a member of the Commission he became a focal is a parliamentary occasion, as well as a memorable point for us all. He gave us his advice wisely and occasion. It is memorable because Sir Malcolm Jack discreetly. He saw the House through turbulent times has served 44 years in the House and by my reckoning and as the Leader of the House said, and as my right he has served through seven Prime Ministers, one of hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) them, Harold Wilson, being a retread. As was touched graciously recalled, Sir Malcolm played a major part in on by the Leader of the House, Sir Malcolm also served steering the House away from losing its privileges under as Clerk to the Agriculture Committee—wellingtons the Parliamentary Standards Bill. With Sir Malcolm’s and all—for eight years. If anything shows assiduity, help, the Leader of the House and I hijacked the Bill devotion to duty and attachment to the House, it is and made it a better Bill in the interests of Parliament. serving that Committee for such a lengthy period. He So he used that time of crisis as a time of opportunity. moved on to become Clerk of Supply and Clerk of Sir Malcolm was also accounting officer with overall Standing Committee. He also served the Joint Committee responsibility for the House’s finances, resource accounting on House of Lords Reform from 2002 to 2003. If he and internal controls. All these had a great impact on believes in déjà vu, he has only to close his eyes, open this sovereign Parliament for a sovereign nation. them again and see that House of Lords abolition or In the letter that Sir Malcolm wrote to the Speaker, reform, however one wants to describe it, is back on the which was mentioned by the shadow Leader of the agenda. House, he stated: Sir Malcolm has managed to combine his duties in “Unwarranted and unfounded criticism from whatever quarter the House with being a philosopher, a scholar and a should not deflect Members from their duties which will necessarily writer, whose books had not only to be written but to be ruffle and disturb the peace of consensus.” researched. I surmise that the research was as arduous Sir Malcolm was one of those unsung Officers serving as the writing. One of his works which will be worth the House of Commons Commission who was instrumental looking at is the saga, “Corruption and Progress: the in assisting the House to make a much-needed transition. eighteenth-century debate”. It should be read again by While talking about transition, I hope that you, all the cognoscenti in our present era. They may find Mr Speaker, will not mind my saying that Sir Malcolm that, if I may quote French, plus ça change, plus ça reste had to lead the transition from one Speaker to another le même: the more it changes, the more it stays the same. mid-Session. I can testify from my own experience and Many of those in the news at present might have a good observation to the friendship and camaraderie he extended look at that. Sir Malcolm would understand more than to you, Sir, and the advice he offered on so many new anyone that progress and change are not the same. areas, which I am sure you appreciated and valued. On reading the various publications of Sir Malcolm, That is an important and significant point that ought to I came across a book entitled “The Turkish Embassy be made. The Leader of the House referred to the Letters of Lady Mary Wortley Montagu.” My ears 24th edition of “Erskine May”. Although it is to be pricked up and, I went chasing down to the library. I published tomorrow, a copy is already available in the thought journalists from the tabloid newspapers might Library and has been read many times by many Members have got there before me, but I am happy to say that in the short time it has been there. they did not. The book is a very interesting account of I will end my remarks with a quotation from the what went on at the end of the 1600s and into the 1700s famous poet Andrew Marvell, though it might be out of and is well worth the read. context: That book mentions Sir Malcolm’s vocation as an “He nothing common did or mean independent scholar. His book on Lisbon published in 2007 is certainly also worth a read for those who love Upon that memorable scene”. Portugal, as he does, and its beautiful capital city. I We should make it “this memorable scene”. Sir Malcolm note, as did the Leader of the House, that in “Who’s retires from the House with his honours thick upon Who” one of Sir Malcolm’s recreations is listed as him, and deservedly so. I salute him, as does the House “escaping southwards”. I imagine there are many in the and Parliament, and as should the nation. fourth estate who might look to him for advice on how they might make an early escape southwards. Several hon. Members rose— 207 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB12 JULY 2011 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB 208

Mr Speaker: I hope that the hon. Member for Stone 6.5 pm (Mr Cash) will imitate the quality of “Erskine May”, a copy of which he is clutching, but I feel modestly Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab): I am delighted confident that he will not seek to equal its length. to have the opportunity to add my thoughts on Sir Malcolm Jack and his career to those that have already been expressed. Like many Members, when I arrived in this place I had no idea who was who or how it was run, and 6.1 pm I stayed that way for many years, but Malcolm Jack Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I am extremely always stood out as someone I recognised. The Leader grateful, Mr Speaker, and note that the latest edition of of the House has referred to his dignified bearing, and I “Erskine May”, the 24th, produced by Sir Malcolm first became aware of him as a much younger Clerk, Jack, is dedicated to you: when I was an even younger Member. He clearly stood out as someone of importance, even though I did not “To The Right Honourable John Bercow MP, Speaker of the House of Commons, and to the Lord Speaker, Speakers and know what position he held; that was the impression he Presiding Officers of the Commonwealth Parliaments, on whom gave. I got to know him much better when I became fall the great responsibilities of guardianship of the parliamentary Chair of the Administration Committee and, subsequently, system.” a member of the House of Commons Commission. This place produces many exceptional people, but Malcolm In the words of Maine’s “Ancient Law”, justice is to be Jack is particularly exceptional. Many colleagues have found in the interstices of procedure, so it is a proper commented on the advice he has given regularly to the reflection on your role that Sir Malcolm makes that Commission, often in difficult circumstances, and how dedication in this excellent book, which I am glad to valuable it is. point out is somewhat shorter than previous editions. I have had occasion in the past to read out certain passages, In trying to pull together a picture of Malcolm Jack, for example in relation to the Maastricht treaty, to I picked up one or two things from various political remind Members exactly of their responsibilities, but I websites. I found an interesting description in a column do not need to do so on this auspicious occasion, and following an appearance Dr Jack made before the Liaison nor would I wish to. Committee last year. He was described as The remarks that have been made about Sir Malcolm, ‘the grandest panjandrum in the palace. He is so clever that he makes David “Two Brains” Willetts look like a village simpleton. whom I have known since I first became involved in the Friends call him “Three Brains”, or at least they should. Dr Jack processes of the House in 1967, are that he is a man of appeared in his full outfit, including a tailcoat and gigantic enormous integrity, a great scholar and a purveyor of comedy white tie. He looked like a brilliant scientist winkled out the wisest advice, based on his knowledge of philosophy of his lab in order to accept a Nobel prize.’ and history. He has been a remarkable Clerk and has I see that philosopher’s frown every time he is thinking, been in our service. One thing I recall most specifically particularly when chewing over the difficult issues that about his great career is the fact that he has been a might have led that reporter to think that of him. persistent defender of the sovereignty of this House. The case mentioned by the right hon. Member for I want to concentrate on two aspects of Malcolm Blackburn (Mr Straw) in his fulsome tribute occurred in Jack that stand out in my experiences of him. The first adversarial circumstances but demonstrates that those is that he has always been available, as many have said, involved realised upon reflection that the advice Sir Malcolm and not just to Members or important commissioners gave was of such quality that it needed to be followed by and holders of grand positions, but to his staff. I had a successful vote, which shows that we owe him a great many discussions with him through the crisis that we all debt. Questions of parliamentary privilege are not merely dealt with. I know of no Clerk, with the exception of esoteric—the expression is greatly misunderstood—but those in the 1500s who could be flayed in New Palace relate, as others have said, to the defence of the rights of Yard if they got things wrong, as the shadow Leader of those whom we represent. the House mentioned, who has had to deal with such challenges. In virtually every discussion I had with him Furthermore, Back Benchers rely heavily on the advice one of his key concerns was the effect that the crisis was of the Clerk, and I have had reason to be deeply grateful having on the morale of the staff. He protected his staff, for the wise and impartial advice that Sir Malcolm has many of whom are paid much less than they would be given periodically on great matters of parliamentary outside this building, and was always available to them and constitutional importance. I have no doubt whatever as much as he was to anyone else. He understood the that his successor, Mr Robert Rogers, will follow in his loyalty they felt to this place and that they were severely footsteps and that we will have the advantage of his damaged by the crisis. We thought that we were the ones wise advice as well. who were damaged, but many others were damaged in In conclusion, I want to put on record my that process. His concern about the impact on the staff appreciation—shared no doubt by many other Back was extremely important, and he knew that the reputation Benchers—for the tremendous work that Sir Malcolm of the House was extremely important to them. has done. It is enormously important that we, as Back The second area where I think he distinguished himself, Benchers, have access to impartial and wise advice, and which has also been highlighted by the Leader of particularly against the blandishments, manoeuvrings the House, is in his attempt to modernise this place, and machinations of the usual channels, the Whips. I which I think has been very important. The Leader of have experienced more than my reasonable share of the House mentioned the Tebbit report. I remember that in the 27 years that I have had the honour of being asking a senior Officer of the House, shortly after in this place, but I have always had the most tremendous becoming Chair of the Administration Committee, how help from those like Sir Malcolm, and from him in decisions were made about repairs and improvement to particular. the building. To summarise, the answer was basically, 209 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB12 JULY 2011 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB 210

“It’s what your Committee wants, Sir.” There is a culture combine the two elements. Every aspect of this House is of deference in this place, although I think it has subordinate to the work that the House does, which is reduced over the past four or five years. It is important supervised by the person who ensures that our procedures that it reduces, because we do not make the right are fit for purpose. decisions when deference is the motivation behind the I pay tribute to Sir Malcolm for the innovations that advice that is given to Committees and others in this he has brought to the British constitution and for the place. In the conversations that I have had with Malcolm way that he has strengthened this House throughout a Jack, he recognised that. very difficult period. Malcolm Jack was not the initiator of the Tebbit report—the Commission had ordered it before his 6.14 pm appointment—but he made sure, as the Leader of the Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): As the hon. House pointed out, that it was implemented very speedily. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) is leaving the Chamber, I This House is a better place for that. It is much more want to say that I am very pleased that he has a new structured; there is planning. For example, six or seven copy of “Erskine May”. On our occasional bus journeys years ago there was no long-term strategy for the in the morning, I look forward to him to reading out maintenance of this building; now there is a 25-year what will no doubt by then be a heavily annotated strategy with five-yearly reviews. Simple things like that version of his copy of “Erskine May” to the general make a difference to this place, and Malcolm Jack has enlightenment of myself and the other passengers on been responsible for seeing that through. the bus. That volume will indeed be a continuing tribute I had a brief discussion with Malcolm when I heard to the Clerk of the House, Sir Malcolm Jack. about his retirement—he may not thank me for saying A great deal has been said about Sir Malcolm Jack this—and we were talking about his successor. I believe and the public role that he has played in shaping the quite strongly that one day the position of the Clerk way that this House has operated in recent years. I and that of the chief executive will be separated and we certainly endorse all of that. The quality that he had will see much more outside influence. Malcolm is probably was also, at the same time, an old-fashioned one, in that the exception to the rule, but 44 years in one place is not he was always available to provide very wise advice to the best training to run that place. One needs outside any Member who wanted to use the procedures of the influences and to know what is happening in the outside House for a good purpose. I am personally grateful to world. I think he understands that. He may be a bridge him for having done so on many occasions—in a quiet between the old-style Clerk and the new-style chief way, but guiding one through the procedures as they executive of the future. applied in the particular circumstances. I like to think There are lots of things that I wanted to say, but what that the wisdom and great scholarship that has been we all want to do is to offer him and his partner all best attested to is a testament to the time that he spent at wishes for the future. I know that he has a lot of plans Liverpool university; so many people who went to that to do more writing; “Erskine May” is not the limit of university share those qualities. the opportunities that he sees for himself. I add my Let me conclude by saying that I hope that he and his congratulations to him on the service that he has provided partner enjoy a long, happy and fulfilling retirement. to this House and wish him and his partner all the best Question put and agreed to. for the future. Resolved, nemine contra dicente, That Mr Speaker be requested to convey to Sir Malcolm Jack 6.12 pm KCB, on his retirement from the office of Clerk of this House, the House’s gratitude for his long and distinguished career, for his Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): wise contribution to the development of the procedure of the Sir Malcolm Jack is proof that the United Kingdom’s House and to close understanding among the Parliaments of largely unwritten constitution is not only unwritten but the Commonwealth, for his leadership and professionalism in the living. The mark that he leaves on his office and on the discharge of his duties as chief executive of the House, and for the institution of the Clerks in this House is perhaps, as the courteous and helpful advice always given to individual honourable hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) suggested, Members. a lessening of their deference, not only to Members but Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): On a in relation to their position in the British constitution. point of order, Mr Speaker. I rise to seek your guidance The former Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for on an incident that occurred in Westminster Hall earlier Blackburn (Mr Straw), referred to the Parliamentary today. We were in the middle of a debate discussing Standards Act 2009, which challenged the supremacy poverty and housing dereliction, and the Minister, the and privileges of this House. I believe that Sir Malcolm hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell), described was innovative in his approach in taking on a more the contributions of hon. Members as bringing sob public role than his predecessors by being a less deferential stories to the debate. Interestingly, we queried it at the part of the British constitution. time. We have a Hansard copy of the debate in which That is a reminder of the fact that this House and the word “sob” has been removed. Clearly, that is very Parliament does not just depend on what we say about politically sensitive, because we felt that it was somewhat ourselves, and on what judges say about us and the laws insulting. Is there any way, Mr Speaker, that you or your that we make; we depend, as an institution, for our good offices could check whether we had misheard the sovereignty, on the institution of the Clerks themselves. Minister? Having watched back the video, I have to say I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Aberdeen that it does not look like he mispronounced any word. North say that the role of chief executive should be If so, how do we find out how that word was removed separated from that of Clerk of the House. Part of the and who authorised its removal, because clearly the strength of the institution of the Clerks is that they record would appear not to be factually correct? 211 Sir Malcolm Jack KCB 12 JULY 2011 212

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Public Bodies Bill [Lords] point of order. The reality, as some Members will be [Relevant documents: The Fifth Report from the Public aware, is that the Editor of Hansard does have some Administration Select Committee, Smaller Government: discretion in the compilation of the Official Report, and Shrinking the Quango State, HC 537, and the Government marginal adjustments can be made, although ordinarily response, Cm 8044.] one does not expect adjustments to be made which change the meaning of what has been said. I think the Second Reading safest thing that I can say to the hon. Lady on this occasion is that I will look into the matter and revert to Mr Speaker: I inform the House that the amendment her when I have done so. has been selected. To move the Second Reading, I call the extremely patient Minister, Mr Francis Maude.

ROYAL ASSENT 6.19 pm Mr Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has General (Mr Francis Maude): I beg to move, That the signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts: Bill be now read a Second time. Sports Grounds Safety Authority Act 2011 It seems almost unseemly to move a Second Reading Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and in the wake of the august tributes to the retiring Clerk Law of Succession) Act 2011 of the House. It is actually quite appropriate, because many of the tributes to Sir Malcolm, which I heartily Wreck Removal Convention Act 2011 endorse, talked about his understanding of and commitment Police (Detention and Bail) Act 2011 to the powers of this House. Central to those powers is the House’s power and right to hold the Executive to account. That is essentially what the Bill is about. It will enlarge the scope of the state—the public realm—which this House and Parliament can hold to account, and reduce the scope of quangos and non-departmental public bodies and the range of public state entities that are not accountable to a democratic authority. That is long overdue. The Bill will put in place a mechanism that will enable this Government and future Governments to change the landscape of those bodies without the need for separate primary legislation whenever anything is sought to be done. The public are right to expect a system in which Ministers are accountable for what the Government do and for how taxpayers’ money is spent. For too long, there has been the proliferation of a complex network of public bodies, which has worked against that expectation by blurring the lines of accountability and disguising inefficiency and duplication in the delivery of public services. It is for that reason that last summer the Government conducted an intensive review of public bodies, which was stimulated and led by the Cabinet Office but conducted by the relevant Departments across Whitehall. It was the most comprehensive interrogation of the role of such bodies for decades. We subjected each body to four tests. The first was existential and asked whether the body needed to exist and whether its functions needed to be carried out.

Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): When the review was carried out, what environmental appraisal was there of the proposals?

Mr Maude: In conducting the reviews, the Departments will have considered the environmental implications. One example that I am about to refer to would have carried no environmental implications. Obviously, the Departments would have considered the environmental implications in every case. Before any action is taken under the powers in the Bill, there will be an opportunity for further detailed scrutiny. The first question was whether the functions had to be carried out at all. In some cases, the answer was no. We decided fairly rapidly that the Government probably 213 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 214 did not need an independent non-departmental public Mr Maude: Do I have every single detail about every body to deliberate on the purchase of wine for the single body contained in the proposals? No I do not. I Government. That is of course an important function can answer in detail on the bodies that are within the that must be carried out properly, but there does not responsibility of the Cabinet Office. This is an enabling need to be an NDPB to do it. Bill, which will enable the House of Commons and the House of Lords to scrutinise the detail of the proposals Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): One body in each case. There will be plenty of opportunity for that is widely thought to be necessary and desirable is a that to be done in the case of the office of the chief chief coroner to provide leadership to the coronial coroner, because the Government will introduce profession. It would be possible to create that post amendments in Committee, where the issue can be without creating the kind of elaborate body that the explored in great detail. I am confident that all the questions Government are rightly anxious about by designating that are springing up can be answered at that stage. an existing coroner to have that leadership role with just a small amount of additional support. Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): The Minister is trying to evade collective responsibility for Mr Maude: We rather agree with what my right hon. the decisions that the Government are taking. He is also Friend says. There is concern that a whole new apparatus ignoring the fact that there was widespread consultation and bureaucracy should not be set up, with all the on this matter and that it was supported by the Opposition. associated costs, which the previous Government’s plans It was found that, almost without exception, nobody would have entailed. However, we understand the concern disagreed with this. This is far and away the cheapest that not proceeding with the establishment of a chief and most effective way of getting consistency into the coroner would look insensitive, and would perhaps be inquest service. The cost of the inconsistency is both insensitive in the circumstances. I will say a word later human and monetary. The costs that the Minister talks about the detail of our plans in respect of that office. about need to be offset against the costs of the judicial reviews that are brought regularly against the current Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): What has system. He knows that this is the most preposterous changed from when the Minister was in opposition, U-turn. The suggestion that the coronial service should when he voted for the chief coroner and his party’s be accountable to this House is also a disgrace. It Front-Benchers spoke in favour of it in Committee? should be independent. It can therefore only answer to The Minister spoke about cost and there is an issue one of its own. That is why the creation of the office of about cost. Why has he not yet published what savings chief coroner is so necessary. will be made by not having a chief coroner? If, as he recognises, certain functions have to be carried out in Mr Maude: The office of chief coroner will be brought the Ministry of Justice, at what cost will those functions into existence. It will not be set up in the elaborate way be carried out? and with the extensive additional costs embodied in the proposals of the previous Government. The office will Mr Maude: It will cost very much less. The set-up exist. The functions, to the extent that they are needed, costs for the office of the chief coroner, as planned will be exercised in a way that is affordable in the under the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, would have current circumstances. If the right hon. Gentleman, for been £10.9 million and there would have been running whom I have considerable respect, is really suggesting costs of £6.6 million a year. I will tell the hon. Gentleman that we should spend this amount of extra money on exactly what has changed. A Government have come to this matter, he needs to tell the House what he would office and inherited the biggest budget deficit in the cut to enable that to happen. developed world. We had to take urgent steps to control and eradicate the deficit. As a result of that, he will be Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Surely the concern is glad to know, despite having a budget deficit roughly not just over the amazingly expensive offices that many the same size as that of Greece, we now enjoy interest quangos like to equip themselves with, but over the rates roughly the same as Germany’s. amount of pay that they receive. People at the UK Film Council get more than £150,000 a year, the British Mr Jones: The Conservative central office spin is Waterways chief executive gets £230,000, and a similar wearing a bit thin. Will the Minister break down the amount goes to the chief executive of the Dover Harbour costs? The other place was disputing the one-off set-up Board, dare I mention it? Surely we should ensure that cost. Included in the £6 million a year is nearly £1 million the cost of each individual is reduced to a sensible for contingency, which is 20% of the supposed running amount. costs. Would it not help to justify his arguments if a detailed breakdown was printed, which the Ministry of Mr Maude: One of the benefits brought about by this Justice has singly failed to do and he has not done Government is to make all that more transparent. We today? have exposed for scrutiny by the public and the House what those high salaries are, and it is right that we Mr Maude: I will, of course, ensure that my right should do so. They may be completely justified in many hon. and learned Friend, the Lord Chancellor hears cases, but they ought to be justified and scrutinised, so I what the hon. Gentleman has said. There will be plenty make no apology for introducing that degree of of opportunities, such as at Question Time once a transparency. month, for the hon. Gentleman to ask those questions of Ministers at the Ministry of Justice. Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): While the right hon. Gentleman is talking about salaries, perhaps Mr Jones: You don’t know. he will address the abolition of the Agricultural Wages 215 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 216

[Helen Goodman] Rehman Chishti: I am grateful to the Minister. Between 2007 and 2008, public sector organisations spent about Board, which protects the incomes of the poorest people £4 million on hiring political consultants to lobby in the countryside. Its abolition will mean that those Government, which is totally unacceptable. What steps workers lose more than £150 a week in sick pay straight are being taken to ensure that it does not happen again? away. How can he defend that? Mr Maude: The guidance has been tightened up Mr Maude: I justify it on the basis that the Government considerably. Taxpayers find it quite offensive that a of the hon. Lady’s party introduced a minimum wage, body that is not democratically accountable should use which was voted through by the House. The Agricultural taxpayers’ money, in some cases, to hire lobbyists to Wages Board was introduced at a time when there was lobby Government to give it more taxpayers’ money. no national minimum wage. It now exists, and we take We have taken urgent steps to ensure that that does not the view that an independent body with the AWB’s recur. powers no longer needs to exist. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Will my Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): The point about the right hon. Friend give way? Agricultural Wages Board is not just that it pins down a minimum wage for agricultural workers but that there Mr Maude: I will give way once more; then I really are six scales of pay and other protections for those will need to make progress. workers, who have a very weak voice in the labour market. The Minister talks about transparency, but the Alun Cairns: I am very grateful. I could not agree rural voice will be lost unless transparent decisions are more with my right hon. Friend about lobbyists, but made in the Chamber about each of the bodies involved, does he also accept the danger that many public bodies including the Rural Advocate, who speaks up on behalf will start to employ internal lobbyists directly rather of the most vulnerable in rural communities. than commissioning and contracting them? That would also be a waste of money. Mr Maude: On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the Mr Maude: My hon. Friend’s point simply amplifies Rural Advocate, it seems to me that rural areas are very the case for the presumption that we are instituting in well represented in this House. It seems odd that a the Bill that there needs to be a really compelling case separate body should be created to be a rural advocate, for a state function being carried out in a way that is not because it seems to me that it is the duty of Members of accountable. That is the purpose of the Bill. Parliament to be the advocate for their constituents. There are many very effective advocates of rural residents and constituents. Charlie Elphicke: Will my right hon. Friend give way on that point? The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs proposes to consult on the AWB in the autumn. Mr Maude: My hon. Friend will forgive me, but I It will be part of a wider consultation package on the really do need to make progress. A great many Members future of the agricultural wages committees and the wish to contribute to the debate. agricultural dwelling house advisory committees. Our first test of a body was the existential test—does its function need to be carried out at all? If, as in most Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): I fear that the cases, the body’s functions were deemed necessary, we Minister is being led down the path of discussing every then sought to establish whether the functions should public body covered in the Bill. Is it not the case that the be carried out independently. We had three tests. If a public bodies identified in the Government’s review body carries out a highly technical activity, if it is form a significant layer of state control, and one from required to be politically impartial or if it needs to be which people can only feel distant? Bringing accountability able to act independently to establish or measure facts, to bear on that layer is the most important aspect of the it is right for it to remain outside direct ministerial or Bill for him to focus on. other democratic accountability. That is clearly the case with bodies such as the new Office for Budget Responsibility, Mr Maude: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Ofgem and many others. These bodies are rarely discussed in the House, and that Any body that does not meet any of those tests will is part of the problem that we are seeking to deal with. either be brought back into a Department, where it can Unless there is a compelling reason why a state function be held accountable to the House through a Minister, or should be carried out by a body that is independent of devolved to local authorities. In both cases there will be any democratic accountability, the presumption should democratic accountability. Or in some cases, a body’s be that it is accountable. That is the test that we apply. functions could be carried out outside the state altogether in the private or voluntary sectors. We went through an Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con) extensive process to determine the outcome of the rose— review. The first task was simply to establish how many Mr Maude: I will give way to my hon. Friend, and quangos there were and what they did. It may sound then I will make progress. I am conscious that this is absurd, but it was and remains incredibly difficult to get going to end up being a rather short debate on Second firm information on that. Many do not publish accounts, Reading of a large Bill, and I know that a lot of there is no central list and there are many different types Members want to contribute. of quango with different statuses. The official list of 217 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 218 non-departmental public bodies contains 679 bodies, tribute to my noble Friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach for excluding those in Northern Ireland, but that does not his skilful stewardship of the Bill in the other place. include non-ministerial departments, Government-owned The Bill is centred on a series of order-making powers public corporations or trading funds. Our review covered that enable Ministers to make changes to public bodies 901 bodies, and we believe, but cannot be certain, that through secondary legislation, subject to the approval that is the true extent of the landscape. I stress that of Parliament. That mechanism creates a coherent and departmental Executive agencies were not within the efficient procedure for reform, while properly giving review’s scope. They are directly controlled by Ministers, Parliament the ability to scrutinise both the principle who are accountable to Parliament for what they do. and the detail of the proposals. At the end of that review, I announced our proposals to the House on 14 October last year. They were that Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ 481 of the bodies should be substantially reformed, Co-op): Will the Minister give way? including 192 abolished entirely and a further 118 merged. Since that announcement we have concluded consideration Mr Maude: I will give way once, if the intervention is of a number of other bodies, and I can tell the House on scrutiny. that the current total is that 495 bodies will be reformed, including 200 abolished and 120 others merged into Mark Lazarowicz: Although there is no doubt nothing 59 successor bodies. We have moved quickly to implement wrong with dealing with some of those bodies by order, that programme, and I am pleased to tell the House that can the right hon. Gentleman not understand the concerns 45 bodies had been abolished by the end of April this many of us have about the fact that bodies such as the year. Overall, we expect to make administrative savings—I Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission stress that they are administrative—of £2.6 billion from can simply be merged by order, when there were hours, public bodies over the spending review period. That days or weeks of debate in the House, including in money will be better spent on protecting public sector Committee, to set them up? Is not that a dangerous jobs and on front-line services. precedent for the Government to set?

Mr Kevan Jones rose— Mr Maude: Powers to amend primary legislation by secondary legislation are not unprecedented. An Mr Maude: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I amendment made in the other place, which the Government am going to make progress. I have given way a great supported, will mean that either House can require an deal, and I do not want this speech to go on too long. I enhanced affirmative procedure. Such a procedure not am sure that is a sentiment that the House will support. only requires consultation before a draft order is laid, I note that the previous Government’s intention, set but allows a further period for reflection on, and analysis out in 2009, was to abolish 120 bodies, saving the and scrutiny of, the proposal. It is reasonable to have a conveniently round number of £500 million. Yet in the reasonably accelerated process for the reform of public six months following that announcement, they did not even bodies. Otherwise, we will end up in a position in which manage to abolish half of them—a clear demonstration we have a wholly incoherent landscape of public bodies. that, as ever, they had a better knack for the headline I confess that even at the end of the process that we are than for the hard work of implementing what had been currently proposing, that landscape will still be quite promised. muddled, but it will at least have been cleared to some extent. Where public bodies have been retained, they will be subject to a process of rigorous triennial review, to Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op) rose— ensure that they remain fit for purpose, that the need is there, and that the justification for them remaining independent is still valid. Far too often, bodies have Mr Maude: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I been created and left well beyond the time when they will make progress. are needed, partly because there has been no means to reform or disband them—any such change would have Gavin Shuker rose— required primary legislation, time for which is, as we know, at a premium in the House. Mr Maude: Oh, well, I give way to the hon. Gentleman’s blandishments. The Government’s response to the Select Committee on Public Administration report outlined the principles Gavin Shuker: Further to the point made by my hon. of that review process, and I look forward to giving Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith further details to the House in due course. The review (Mark Lazarowicz) on the OFT and Competition process for individual bodies will be led by the responsible Commission, is that not an odd state of affairs? There Minister in each case, and co-ordinated and supported are reports that one of those bodies will take responsibility by the Cabinet Office. for NHS contracts worth more than £70 million, yet The House will be aware that the Bill was brought today we are discussing the changes to them abstract from another place, where it has received substantial from Monitor’s responsibilities. scrutiny, resulting in a number of important amendments. I thank noble Lords for their constructive engagement Mr Maude: The functions will continue to exist, but in this process, which has helped the Government to there will be a rationalisation of the landscape of the produce an even more coherent and well-structured bodies. A single competition authority will be created. Bill—it was fairly coherent and well-structured to begin A number of the consumer advocate functions will be with. I hope that it will command the support of this given to citizens advice bureaux, which will strengthen House and the confidence of the public. I pay particular their role and bring welcome additional funding to 219 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 220

[Mr Maude] future. Yetat the same time, the Bill requires Government to make the case for their proposals to stakeholders and them—[Interruption.] I would hope that hon. Members to Parliament, guaranteeing that proper consideration welcomed the enhancement of the role of CABs that is given to the exercise of important public functions. the Bill brings about. I should tell the House that the Government intend to The Bill provides an ability to make further changes introduce a number of amendments in Committee. In as need arises in future. Each order-making power is particular, the House will be aware that following the written limited in its application to those bodies that are listed in ministerial statement on 15 June by the Minister of State, the relevant schedule to the Bill. Clause 1 creates a power Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. for a Minister to abolish a body or office by order. Such Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), an order may either abolish the body’s functions if they who has responsibility for business and enterprise, the are no longer required, or transfer some or all of them abolition of the regional development agencies will now to another eligible party, such as a Government be taken forward in primary legislation through the Bill. Department, a charity or another public body. Abolishing the RDAs in the Bill will ensure that the In some cases, an order under clause 1 will be motivated Government can meet our timetable for the development by the principle of accountability—that a Minister should of a new framework for regional growth, providing be directly accountable for Government actions within clarity and opportunity to businesses across the nation. their sphere of influence. For that reason, we propose to Similarly, we will seek to amend the Bill to modify the abolish the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Broadcasting Act 1990 to revise the funding arrangements Commission and to return its functions to the direct for S4C by removing the retail prices index link, while control of the Department for Work and Pensions. In securing the channel’s independent future status and other cases, a body will simply be abolished to halt delivering significant savings. unnecessary expenditure and duplication. For example, I can also inform the House that the Government will clause 1 will also be used to introduce orders to abolish seek to reintroduce the office of the chief coroner and the Valuation Tribunal Service, the functions of which the YouthJustice Board to the Bill’s schedules, overturning can now be performed by Her Majesty’s Courts and votes in the other place. As I said earlier, my right hon. Tribunals Service, and which therefore no longer needs and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor has listened to to be a separate entity, with its own overhead costs. the concerns raised in relation to the important functions The next four clauses of the Bill create a complementary that those bodies are designed to carry out, and I set of powers to merge groups of bodies, to modify believe that our revised proposals will gain wide support. constitutional or funding arrangements, or to modify We have agreed that the office of the chief coroner or transfer a body’s functions. The breadth of those should remain on the statute book, and our amendments powers is a reflection of the breadth of the Government’s will propose adding it to schedule 5 to the Bill to enable reform agenda. We aim to enhance the scope of civil some of its functions to be transferred to the Lord society by the creation of a new waterways charity to Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor. replace British Waterways. Our agenda spreads to the The Government will propose a number of more technical modification of regulatory bodies such as Ofcom and amendments to the Bill, including to clarify the requirements the Equality and Human Rights Commission to ensure of the consultation process in clause 10, to ensure that that they are fully focused on their vital regulatory any orders made under the Bill in relation to the funding functions. arrangements of bodies or offices require the consent of In total, 294 bodies currently appear in the schedules the Treasury and to modify the list of taxes subject to to the Bill, demonstrating the importance of this measure variation in their provision as part of a transfer scheme to the reform agenda. Details of our proposals for each made in connection with an order under the Bill. of those bodies are available in a document that has The Government are committed to bringing about been placed in the House Library. I can assure the radical change in the administration of government in House that that document will be updated regularly the UK—change that responds to the public’s demand throughout the passage of the Bill, and I hope it forms a to place the principles of transparency, accountability valuable basis for debate in Committee. and value for money at the centre of what the state does. In addition, the Bill creates specific powers for Welsh Quango reform has been long promised by parties on Assembly Ministers to take forward a number of changes both sides of the House and is long overdue, but we to public bodies operating in Wales. Those will assist have now taken the difficult decisions necessary to the Welsh Assembly Government as they seek to simplify make it possible and to make it happen. By enabling a their public bodies landscape and to deliver further comprehensive and overdue reconfiguration of the savings, and I hope that those measures also enjoy the landscape and by creating a framework to support support of the House. better management of public bodies in the future, the As I have indicated, the passage of the Bill through Bill gives the Government the essential tools with which the Lords saw a number of modifications to the mechanisms to turn this commitment into reality. I commend it to of the Bill. The modifications tighten the purposes for the House. which those powers can be used and ensure the appropriate balance between speed and scrutiny in the reform process. 6.51 pm Those changes mean that the Bill that was introduced to this House strikes a carefully crafted balance. It will Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): I enable Ministers to make much-needed reforms to public beg to move, bodies without recourse to specific primary legislation, That this House, while agreeing that there needs to be a an innovation that I believe will support efficient constant reassessment of the role, effectiveness and relevance of management of public bodies both now and in the public bodies, declines to give a second reading to the Public 221 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 222

Bodies Bill because it fails to provide a full and comprehensive than a plan before a Bill. Having said that—by way of plan for the reform of public bodies; regrets that Ministers have introduction—of course we support the reform of public failed to properly cost reforms and identify savings, have failed to bodies and public services. Indeed, before the election, understand the important functions performed by some of the the previous Labour Government had put in place a bodies affected by the Bill and therefore to provide for credible successor arrangements, have failed to consult properly on proposed programme to reform public bodies. That programme reforms with the public and the bodies themselves, and have failed must be constant and continuing. to undertake a proper impact assessment of each affected body; Nevertheless, these organisations carry out an enormous and considers that the overall effect of these failings has been that range of important public functions and play an important the House has been presented with legislative proposals which part in the life of the people of this country, providing undermine the credibility of the proper processes of government. support for our universities, our sports culture and the It gives me great pleasure to move the reasoned arts, standing up for vulnerable people, holding amendment in my name and those of my right hon. and Governments to account, upholding minimum standards hon. Friends. I have listened closely to what the Minister and helping to improve our public services. As the has said. He was courteous and kind about the treatment Institute for Government, of which I am a fellow—an of the Bill in another place, but to describe the scrutiny unremunerated position—wrote, process in the terms he did was an understatement. In fact, the Bill, which in its original form gave him licence “public bodies are now fundamental to the function of Government.” to meddle on an unprecedented scale in the affairs of The needs of the country constantly change and our bodies discharging functions on behalf of the public, public bodies must change too, which is why every was not just overhauled, but was mauled by the scrutiny Government need constantly to reassess their role, of another place. Lord Woolf said that it was effectiveness and relevance. We did that and the Government “a matter of grave concern to the judiciary.”—[Official Report, are doing the same. That is not the issue. When we came House of Lords, 9 November 2010; Vol. 722, c. 75.] to power in 1997, there were almost 1,130 public bodies, The Lords Constitution Committee said that it struck and by the time of our 2009 review, we had cut their number to about 750—a reduction of almost one third. “at the very heart of our constitutional system”, and Baroness Royall was not alone in saying that Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): The right “this is a bad Bill. It is badly thought out, badly structured, badly hon. Lady claims that her Government reduced the executed, bad for the constitution, bad for public bodies and bad number of quangos, but actually spending went up in for government.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 9 November real terms by about 50%. How does she explain that? 2010; Vol. 68, c. 722.] I listened closely to what the Minister said were his Tessa Jowell: We ought to take into account the intentions for the scrutiny of the Bill in the House, and I reduction of bodies at the Department of Health, link would like to put him on notice: we will fight with every to that the significant reduction in the number of bodies available argument to ensure proper protection for the announced by the Haskins review of Natural England Youth Justice Board, which has led to such a dramatic and consider the systematic reduction in the number of fall in youth crime, and we will fight to honour and see other bodies, as well as the fact that some were merged implemented the commitment to the office of the chief and others increased their functions. However, in March coroner. The Minister can deploy a parliamentary majority 2010, we announced plans to go further and faster and to vote down the decisions taken in another place, but, to reduce the overall number of bodies by a further 123. as has been indicated already by my right hon. and hon. Friends, as well as other right hon. and hon. Members, he will not be able to defeat the argument in the country Mr Maude: Does the right hon. Lady accept that the over the chief coroner—an argument supported eloquently biggest reduction in the number of public bodies came by the Royal British Legion. I hope with humility through their devolution to the Scottish and Welsh therefore that he will take heed of the debate and judge Governments? it on its merits. The original Bill, as published by the Tory-led coalition, Tessa Jowell: I do not necessarily accept that that was planned to sell off our forests. I would like to pay the the largest reduction. However, devolution was one of warmest tribute to the campaign so excellently and the most significant policies introduced—and proudly eloquently led by my hon. Friend the Member for so—by the Labour Government and of course previously Wakefield (Mary Creagh), which rightly saw a climbdown reserved powers were then devolved to the Scottish by the Government and brought together 600,000 people Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. in a campaign against the sale of our national heritage. A 20% reduction would have saved £500 million from The original Bill also left 150 organisations in the next year. The Minister jibbed at that, but we viewed the organisational limbo of what was then schedule 7 of the process of altering, closing down and merging public Bill—sounds innocuous enough, does it not? But Channel 4 bodies as one that should take place systematically over was listed, as were the Independent Police Complaints time. Those £500 million of savings would have been Commission, the Charity Commission, the Criminal realised by next year. Cases Review Commission and the independent Judicial Appointments Commission. All were placed in a schedule Mr Kevan Jones: Does my right hon. Friend agree that would have left them open to being axed at the that a lot of what is being proposed is window dressing, stroke of a Minister’s pen. in the sense that even closing down bodies such as the The process of these reforms has been deeply flawed, Audit Commission will cost some £400 million in pension and the Government still lack detailed plans for many liabilities and winding up other assets? When we look at of the bodies that they are seeking to change, merge or some of those organisations in detail, we see that the abolish. They have produced a Bill before a plan, rather payback period might not come for, say, 10 years. 223 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 224

Tessa Jowell: My hon. Friend is obviously correct. I vital functions that many such bodies perform—as my intend to make some progress now, but I will come to hon. Friend has so clearly described—in protecting the precisely that point in a little while. quality of life for people across the country in a variety We would have saved £500 million by 2012-13 as a of different ways. result of planned and properly costed change and reform. Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Will We also accepted that there is scope for further reform. the right hon. Lady give way? We agree that the Railway Heritage Committee should be reformed and that the National Endowment for Tessa Jowell: If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I Science, Technology and the Arts should enter the am going to make some progress, as there are lots of voluntary sector. We also support the reform of a Back Benchers who want to speak in this debate. number of other significant bodies. The problem is not The approach that the Government have taken in this with reform, nor is it with the tests that the Minister has Bill is the opposite of the clear and costed plan that was set for that reform, as I will set out in a moment; the produced by the last Government. They are abolishing problem is with his ill-thought out and rushed through and merging bodies, in some cases without any idea of Bill. There has been confusion about what the Minister’s what their functions are. Again, I hope that a greater motives are. First he told us this week that the Bill understanding of those functions will result from further was about, as he put it, “sound money”; later we were scrutiny. Even now, more than 10 months after the told that it was about underpinning good government. review of public bodies began, we are still in the dark However, whether the issue is money or good government, over what the Government have planned for a number the Government’s proposals in this Bill are certainly not of the bodies in this Bill. A number of consultations the answer. have begun, but the Government are not even waiting The Government are asking the House to agree to the for the results. Consultation was eventually promised abolition of important bodies such as those raised by on the regional development agencies, but it has now my hon. Friends in interventions—they include Consumer been withdrawn because it would disrupt the process of Focus, the Commission for Rural Communities and the disassembling RDAs that is already under way. Today Football Licensing Authority—but the right hon. the Secretary of State for Justice has announced a Gentleman cannot yet tell us what he will put in their public consultation on all the bodies that affect his place. He has also claimed £30 billion in savings when Department, but this will report after the Bill has gone the reality is that the Government will save £1.6 billion—or through Parliament. Therefore, the Minister here today less, when redundancies have been paid for. is effectively asking this House to give its permission fundamentally to change or to abolish those bodies Andrew George: I hope that the right hon. Lady before his colleagues have decided what will be put in would agree that rather than trading figures for partisan their place. purposes, we need to have a proper audit of what is While the Government cut quangos in this Bill, they going on. A moment ago she mentioned the Commission are adding hundreds of bodies elsewhere. Let us take for Rural Communities. As that body is being brought the national health service. As a result of the Government’s in-house by the Department for Environment, Food chaotic approach to the NHS, they have tripled the and Rural Affairs—that is probably a sensible thing to number of statutory bodies in the NHS, which now do—we do not necessarily know whether that will be number 521. There will now be new shadow commissioning counted as a saving or whether it will be lost from the groups and authorised commissioning groups, primary overall audit of what quangos cost the country. At the care trust clusters, strategic health authority clusters, end of the day, however, the important point is the one clinical networks and clinical senates, all of which will that I made earlier. We need a rural advocate that is be overseen by the NHS commissioning board, which independent of all the partisan debate that we have in the chief executive of the NHS has described as this place. “the greatest quango in the sky”. The question that we now have to ask the Minister is Tessa Jowell: The hon. Gentleman has set out the whether, even with the passage of this Bill, he believes precise nature of the debate that will need to take place that there will be fewer public bodies in 2015 than when in Committee, because losing the independence and the he first entered his Department. What is his baseline advocacy role of a number of these significant bodies number and what will be the number of quangos in will harm the proper process of representing interests 2015? I am happy to give way to him if he wishes to that often get too little hearing in this House. speak at the Dispatch Box. Okay, the House will note Helen Goodman: Does my right hon. Friend agree the absence of an answer to that question. The Government that what is exposed by the abolition of the Agricultural do not even know how much money they are going to Wages Board and the Commission for Rural Communities save. In an article in The Sun—the Minister’s newspaper —as well as the proposals on forests, on which there of choice for these purposes—in March, he claimed had to be a U-turn—is an attitude of arrogance towards that the Government would save £30 billion in spending the countryside and the idea that it is not necessary to on quangos, listen because the Government think that they know best? “so we can protect jobs and frontline services”. What he failed to mention was that the majority of Tessa Jowell: I certainly hope that the Minister will those savings were from cuts to the very front-line accept my invitation to rethink some of the Government’s services that he had pledged to save. Almost £25 billion proposals and ensure that the Committee stage involves are from cuts to housing and universities, with almost genuine and proper scrutiny of some of the compelling another £2 billion from our arts, our sports and our individual cases. I also hope that he will show proper museums. Only £2.6 billion of the claimed savings were respect and understanding, not for, as it were, the from actual administration, and even that figure has headline description of a clutch of quangos, but for the now come under scrutiny. 225 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 226

In written evidence submitted to the Public I hope that the Minister will recognise that Labour is Administration Committee, the Minister’s own Department seeking to help him by today launching our “Back the admitted that only £1.6 billion of cumulative administrative Apple” campaign, which shows our commitment to savings can be found. Perhaps the Minister would like fairness in the countryside and our backing for the to explain to the House where the other £1 billion of Agricultural Wages Board. It is a precious asset that administrative savings are likely to come from. helps to ensure the decency of fair wages and to enable [Interruption.] Again, the Minister appears not to know people working in the countryside get a fair deal. where the administrative savings will come from, and this is before the Government have even looked at Andrew George rose— redundancies, which are a major cost of any organisational Tessa Jowell: Let me turn briefly to the Commission transformation. The Local Government Chronicle has for Equality and Human Rights— estimated that the bill for redundancies at the RDAs alone will cost the Government at least £100 million, Andrew George rose— yet the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has not even estimated how much they will cost in this Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. There financial year. Information gathered from parliamentary should be only one person on their feet. If the shadow answers shows that out of all the Departments affected, Minister does not wish to give way, the hon. Gentleman only two have so far made estimates of the likely costs should recognise that fact. of redundancies, neither of which is the Department Tessa Jowell: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The headed by the Minister. The Minister should take this hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) did not opportunity to admit to the House that he has no idea catch my eye— what the net savings will be from his reform of public bodies, and no idea of the cost of the redundancies. Andrew George rose— This deeply flawed Bill is part of a deeply flawed, ill thought out programme of reform that could well end Tessa Jowell: I must make some progress; I am sure up costing more money than it is projected to save. that the hon. Gentleman will have a chance to speak later. The Minister’s second criterion for the preservation Mr Maude: I want to make it absolutely clear, as I of bodies was that they should deal with issues that have done before, that these are cumulative administrative require political impartiality.The Commission for Equality savings over the spending review period of £2.6 billion, and Human Rights is an example of one such body. It and that they are net of restructuring costs—[Interruption.] exists to break down inequality and to build opportunity That was made absolutely clear in March, in my response and the type of society in which fairness and a life of to the Select Committee. The right hon. Lady has lots of dignity and respect are not merely an ideal but a fact. suggestions for what should not be done in the Bill; has The commission’s inclusion in schedules 3 and 5 to the she any suggestions for what should be done to reform Bill leaves it open to being rendered ineffective by the quango landscape? having its constitution altered, or its functions amended or transferred. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to think Tessa Jowell: Yes, we certainly have. I should like to again. Only a year ago, the coalition told us that it was refer the right hon. Gentleman to the programme of going to “tear down” the barriers that people faced as a reform that was clearly set out by the previous Government, result of who they were, and that it would stand up for on which I am sure full information is available in his fundamental human freedoms. In defending the Department. If not, I am happy to provide it for him. It Commission for Equality and Human Rights, will he involved £500 million-worth of savings by 2012-13. stand up for the fundamental human freedom that it Let me now turn to some of the specific bodies listed represents? in the schedules to the Bill. When the Minister began The third type of body to be preserved under the this process of reform, he said that public bodies would Minister’s tests are those that need to act independently be allowed to remain if they fulfilled one of three to establish facts. Consumer Focus is an excellent example. criteria—namely, if they performed a technical function, It is the statutory consumer champion, and it has strong if they dealt with issues that required political impartiality legislative powers. or if they needed to act independently to establish facts. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ I should like to say to the Minister that those are good, Co-op): My right hon. Friend might not have been in rigorous tests of public bodies. the Chamber earlier this afternoon when the Secretary Let us apply those tests to the Agricultural Wages of State for Energy and Climate Change referred to the Board. If the Minister believes that we should preserve need for a strong consumer champion in the energy bodies that perform an important technical function, market, especially as there is effectively a cartel of six surely the board should be removed from the Bill, big energy companies. Given that the functions of because it sets the pay of 140,000 people in England. Consumer Focus are effectively being transferred to That also covers holiday pay, sick pay and overtime. If Citizens Advice, does she acknowledge the concern that the board is abolished, fruit pickers and farm workers the work of those two bodies in protecting the consumer will see their wages fall. Workers could lose between involves two very different skill sets? £150 and £265 a week in sick pay, because that would no longer be guaranteed. School-age children working Tessa Jowell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The at weekends or in summer jobs will also lose out. The combination of the regulatory responsibility of Consumer Farmers Union of Wales has warned that Focus and the voluntary responsibilities and representation “unless there are systems in place to protect payments to agricultural involved in Citizens Advice’s role is wholly inappropriate. workers, the industry will not attract the highly skilled technicians I hope that the Minister will think again on that proposal it needs to thrive.” as well. 227 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 228

[Tessa Jowell] accountability and transparency on many parts of the extended public sector and that will deliver huge value- I want briefly to refer to S4C, which also remains in for-money savings for the hard-pressed taxpayer. the Bill. S4C is vital to sustaining the Welsh language’s In the last 10 years, the cost of non-departmental prominence in Welsh culture and society. We therefore public bodies, like much of our nation’s spending, has hope that the Minister will agree to the independent spiralled out of control. Despite a steady reduction in review of S4C for which the leaders of all four main the number of quangos since 1979, the cost to the parties in Wales have called. public purse has almost continually increased, with I also want to deal briefly with the Office of the Chief annual Government funding doubling to £39 billion in Coroner and the YouthJustice Board. I urge the Minister the years since the turn of the millennium. This Bill will to stick to the settlement that was concluded in another allow huge savings to be made—a cumulative saving of place in this regard. As has already been mentioned, the £30 billion over the spending review period, with estimated introduction of the Office of the Chief Coroner received annual savings of at least £11 billion a year by 2014-15. cross-party support when it was legislated for in 2009. As highlighted by the shadow Minister and in the There is a desperate need to improve the coronial system, amendment, costs will occur when shedding such excessive which fails too many families. Establishing such a system waste, but the potential long-term benefits are so great is also a central obligation under the military covenant. that it is essential for the Government to push ahead I hope that the Minister will heed carefully the words of and deliver the long-term efficiency and sustainability Chris Simpkins, the director-general of the Royal British that this Bill will enable. Legion, who has said that he believes that “this decision would be a deep betrayal of bereaved Service I am sure that all Members will join me in welcoming families. We anxiously await a response that will satisfy us that the schedule 5, which transfers British Waterways’ network interests of Service families will be represented.” in England and Wales to a new charitable trust. My Over the course of the last Parliament, the Youth constituency has a certain claim to the resurgence of Justice Board oversaw a 43% reduction in first-time our nation’s waterways in the 20th century, for it was in youth offenders, by working with youth offending teams Chester that Tom Rolt, the founding father of the to focus on the causes of crime. In another place, Lord Inland Waterways Association, was born in 1910. It is Woolf has said that worth noting that since the middle of the last century, the Inland Waterways Association has itself been calling “this initiative has been wholly salutary. It…gave new hope to all those who were concerned for this area of our justice system. The for a third-sector model for running our nation’s waterways. best test of the innovation is to ask, “Did it work?”…the balance The proposals from the Department for Environment, sheet would show a huge improvement”.—[Official Report, House Food and Rural Affairs to create a new waterways of Lords, 28 March 2011; Vol. 726, c. 961.] charity, initially from the British Waterways Board, but I hope that, during the Bill’s progress through the eventually including the Environment Agency navigations House, the Minister will consider carefully the power of in 2014, have been widely welcomed—but it is crucial these arguments from people of the utmost distinction that we get this right. Half the population lives within and sincerity. five miles of one of our canals and rivers, and 13 million In conclusion, let me reaffirm our support for reform, people use them every year. These days, people do not while stating that it needs to be planned, properly use them only for boating or angling. In Chester, we costed and undertaken on the basis of clear necessity have cycleways and safe green walkways into the city and an understanding of the context in which these centre for shoppers and commuters. We have dog walkers bodies operate. The way in which the Government have and joggers, and canals and waterways are at the centre conducted this legislation to date has been an affront to of economic regeneration in many of our urban areas. decent process. I now call on Members of all parties, There will still need to be public financial support for having properly considered the important role and function our waterways, especially after the inclusion of the of many of the bodies that so clearly meet the Minister’s Environment Agency navigations that have less commercial test, to rebuild the shaken confidence in this legislation opportunities than British Waterways; and DEFRA and support our reasoned amendment in the Lobby this will need to ensure that this support continues in future. evening. Unlike many of the organisations facing change, British Waterways has welcomed these proposals, stating that Several hon. Members rose— “by moving to a civil society organisation, British Waterways aims to increase the level of public and volunteer participation in Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. As the waterways and widen the network’s supporter base”— many hon. Members want to catch my eye, I am reducing a sentiment and a proposal that I am sure we can all the time limit to six minutes. support. Accountability and value for money are central to all 7.20 pm areas of public service. That being so, I am heartened Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): For those of by the proposals formally to abolish the regional us who have kept an eye on the Public Bodies Bill as it development agencies. In budgetary terms, my area’s made its turbulent six-month passage through the other Northwest Regional Development Agency is the largest place, today’s Second Reading comes as a relief. We now RDA outside London. In 2008-09, its budget was have a Bill substantially different from the one originally £421 million, and as of May last year, it employed proposed—a Bill much improved by the amendments 481 members of staff. Yet despite its huge budget and tabled in the other place and supported by Ministers. complement of staff, private enterprise has suffered We now have a Bill whose principles should be acceptable proportionately more as a result of the recession in the to all Members; a Bill that will shine the light of north-west than in other regions of the UK. 229 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 230

Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Does the hon. The Government have had to throw S4C into the Gentleman not accept that the whole Deeside hub area, Public Bodies Bill to get their plan through because which covers his seat and mine, is one of the most S4C’s funding is currently protected by law. S4C’s status vibrant and growing manufacturing areas in the whole and funding were set in law in recognition of the crucial country? We have to build on that rather than undermine it? role that it plays in protecting and promoting a language classified as “vulnerable” by no less august a body than Stephen Mosley: I totally agree, but one problem with UNESCO—a language that has steadily disappeared the RDA is that it stops at England’s border and has not from communities over the last 100 years and is now looked over it. We have reached a situation in which spoken by just over 20% of Welsh people, down from there is almost a wall between Chester and north Wales. 60% at the dawn of the 20th century. I hope that with local enterprise partnerships, we will have more local interaction so that there will be an Welsh does have a future, however. Its use is now improvement. rising for the first time in living memory—precisely because of hard-fought initiatives like S4C. The cross-party As I was saying, the north-west has suffered Welsh Affairs Committee, of which I am a member disproportionately more as a result of the recession under the august chairmanship of the hon. Member for than any other UK region and has seen the largest net Monmouth (David T. C. Davies)—I hope he will be a decline in private enterprises in the country. Many right hon. Member one day—stated in the plainest of the private enterprises that should be powering the possible terms in its recent report that S4C has played a region forward have simply shut up shop—not a great success story for our regional development agency, and “key part… in bolstering the everyday use of the Welsh language”, not something that I have seen splashed across one of and concluded that S4C its expensively produced glossy magazines, which seem “brought the Welsh language into many homes where it may not to focus more on what it has spent than on what it has have been heard previously.” achieved. Business sometimes needs support, especially at the Helen Goodman: My hon. Friend is making an eloquent start-up phase, but the remote, bureaucratic regional case in citing the private deals made by the Ministers in development agency model is not the most productive the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Has she way of providing it. The replacement of RDAs by local considered the possibility that they took account of the enterprise partnerships—local, accountable and business-led views of News International and the plurality issue? organisations—is greatly to be welcomed. I wholeheartedly welcome the proposals in the Bill. Susan Elan Jones: They probably took as much account The one area on which I seek reassurance from the of those factors as they appear to have taken of everything Minister relates to the proposed triennial review process else involving S4C. of remaining public bodies. The Public Administration Committee made detailed criticisms of the five-yearly Alun Cairns: May I return the hon. Lady to her point review process that existed until 2002. I would welcome an about funding? She claimed that S4C had suffered a opportunity to examine the new triennial process and 94% cut, but if we are to have a sensible debate about the criteria against which public bodies will be evaluated this important issue, should we not recognise the reality, in future. As I have said before, I am enthusiastically which is that it will be subject to cuts of 6% per annum supportive of the Bill, which is a continuation of for the next four years? That is much better than what is the Government’s relentless approach to localism, happening to many other public sector departments, accountability, transparency and efficiency. I hope that and should be sufficient for it to deliver its objectives. all right hon. and hon. Members will support the principles Does the hon. Lady regret the fact that over the last that lie at the heart of the Bill. 13 years there has not been adequate scrutiny—

7.27 pm Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I wish to believe that the hon. Gentleman hopes to catch my eye speak up for our one Welsh language television channel, later. He cannot make his speech now. S4C. I call for the provisions that affect it to be totally removed from the Bill. How did they come to be included? Susan Elan Jones: The hon. Gentleman could have Was the plan for S4C’s future the result of meticulous made a much better intervention about funding. If the thought, planning and consultation? No. It was a backdoor intervention that he made was intended merely to back deal between Ministers from the Department for Culture, up his party’s crib sheet, I do not think that that was Media and Sport, who declared that they had never very sensible. He could have pointed out that yesterday actually seen the channel, but had a liking for Fireman the Department said that it would remove the reference Sam, and the BBC on the eve of the comprehensive to S4C from schedule 4 and give it a clause of its own, spending review. The BBC offered up S4C as a but, unbelievably, no additional funds and no commitment concession—an appetiser in the face of Government to funding after 2015. threats of much deeper cuts. This deal was the result. The Government announced that they would slash Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Will my hon. direct funding by 94% and shoehorn S4C into a so-called Friend give way? “partnership” deal with the BBC, which would pick up some of the shortfall. The BBC has agreed to top up Susan Elan Jones: I would love to, but I am conscious funding to 75% of previous levels until 2015; after that, that from now on there is no more injury time. S4C will have to pitch for funds and the BBC will be free to do what it wants, even though its own funding is The Select Committee concluded that guaranteed for much longer. “S4C provides value for money.” 231 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 232

[Susan Elan Jones] Paul Flynn: Does my hon. Friend recall the Welsh proverb “Mae allwedd arian yn agor pob clo”, which This is no sweet little niche cultural project that is can be translated as “The key of money opens every propped up out of the kindness of taxpayers’ hearts. lock”? It is both a suitable motto for the Murdoch The channel is already cutting costs, and has overheads empire and a warning that the money going to the BBC of only 4.5%, compared to 12% at the BBC. It is might be used to take over S4C. popular and well watched. According to the Select Committee, its Mr Williams: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that “share of the viewing audience during peak times” quotation. I concur with the sentiment behind it, and I is holding up “remarkably well”, and viewing figures for will say something about S4C in a moment. I also key programmes compare favourably with those for associate myself with the spirited defence of the channel their English-language equivalents. presented by the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones). On top of all that, the channel supports 2,000 Welsh jobs and contributes £90 million to the Welsh economy. The Bill still gives rise to concern on a number of This is not an institution in desperate need of top-down grounds. We might expect that from a Bill that abolishes reform. The Bill, however, will impose catastrophic and reforms a significant number of public bodies, all changes that will not even comply with its own aims. of which will have their defenders—I shall defend two Ministers talk the language of sustainability, but they Welsh organisations later in my speech—but it is worth refuse to guarantee S4C’s future beyond 2015. They reflecting on the Government’s reasons for proceeding talk about accountability and transparency, but this with it. Under Governments of all parties there has move will take S4C’s funding out of direct Government been a huge increase in the number of public bodies in control and hand it over to an arm’s-length body. They the past 30 or 40 years, and the present Government talk about maintaining S4C’s independence—where have face the need to reduce the deficit. I was relieved to hear we heard about the independence of the media before?—but the word “accountability” from my right hon. Friend they have announced no change in the law on BBC the Minister for the Cabinet Office as frequently as I Trust responsibility for every penny of the licence fee. did. The whole plan was drawn up on the back of an envelope by people with no knowledge of S4C or the Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Will the language that it promotes, who wanted to cut costs hon. Gentleman give way? without worrying about the consequences. S4C deserves better. Mr Williams: I have only four and a half minutes, but I am not saying that we cannot have a debate about I will give way. improving S4C. Indeed, we appear to have been engaging in such a debate for the best part of the last year, and I Robert Flello: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. think that that is right, as is the independent review. The He talks of accountability. The bereavement and support first step, however, is to remove S4C from the Bill charity INQUEST says that the Government’s proposals to altogether. I will vote for its removal as soon as I get the “dismantle the office of the Chief Coroner” chance, and I hope that the whole House will join me in will doing so. “add yet another layer… to the… fragmented structure where lines of accountability are opaque and clear leadership is absent.” 7.34 pm The charity believes that accountability will be reduced if responsibility is given to the Ministry of Justice. Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure to speak on a Bill that is a great improvement on the Mr Williams: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman version originally presented in the House of Lords, was present when my right hon. Friend the Member for although I do not think that the Minister quite conceded Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) mentioned the that. office of the chief coroner. I refer him to my right hon. Schedule 7, perhaps the most contentious part of the Friend’s remarks. Bill, has gone, and there is much more restriction of I think we should remind ourselves of the consensus Executive power. The Bill has been amended to require that exists. It is clear that setting about getting rid of a a statutory duty to consult on orders; the simple affirmative number of public bodies created by primary legislation procedure has been replaced by an enhanced affirmative raises significant challenges, and that the only way of process whereby representations can be made to the making that achievable was to create a streamlined Minister, and the Minister may re-lay an amended model. However, it is undoubtedly true that the Bill as order if necessary. All bodies mentioned in the schedules originally presented was over-zealous. It was entirely are now subject to a five-year sunset clause, which unacceptable that the remaining bodies listed in schedule 7 means that authority to amend them is confined to the could be added to other schedules by order. That is now current Parliament and future Governments must either rightly not the case, and the Bill is more suitable for the renew the legislation or pass their own. Notwithstanding purpose for which it was intended. the inevitable criticisms, this is not the same Bill that the I welcome the addition of clause 10, which creates a House of Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform need to consult the person or office-holder to which the Committee said proposal relates as well as persons “would grant to Ministers unacceptable discretion to rewrite the “representative of interests substantially affected by the proposal”. statute book, with inadequate parliamentary scrutiny of, and control over, the process.” That, I believe, needs to be reinforced. 233 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 234

In my constituency in the west of Wales, 60% of residents alternatives have been pursued. In the other place, a speak Welsh as a first language. S4C and plurality in great deal of concern was expressed about Channel 4’s Welsh language broadcasting is vital, and concerns inclusion in the Public Bodies Bill and the uncertainty remain about the model currently proposed and the that created. Channel 4 has now been removed from it, impact that it would have on, in particular, S4C’s governance and I believe S4C should also be removed. and independence. I do not start from a “no change” Members on the Government Benches have spoken position. At a time when other broadcasting bodies face about Citizens Advice and the new functions it would significant cuts, S4C cannot—and, for that matter, does assume from Consumer Focus. Again, in Wales this not—expect to be treated differently from other issue is particularly pressing because the current structure broadcasters. It has shown a willingness to discuss a of Citizens Advice does not lend itself to Welsh governance. new model with the DCMS and the BBC, but fundamental There is a separate structure in Scotland, which allows differences remain between the BBC and S4C. for Scottish matters to be looked at differently, but that The two basic concerns relate to long-term funding is not the case in Wales, where policy work is led from and guarantees of funding after 2015, which has been London. Consumer Focus Wales wants an amendment partly addressed—I will qualify that later—by yesterday’s led by the Department for Business, Innovation and written statement, and to S4C’s remaining independent. Skills to give Assembly Ministers the power to determine Yesterday’s written statement confirmed that an amendment the structure they want—a power not to acquire new would be introduced that would put in statute the level powers, but to determine a Welsh structure. of funding for S4C that is required for it to meet its I have focused on the concerns that still exist, but I do statutory remit as a Welsh language broadcaster. I await not want that to detract from what is a necessary the text of the amendment, because it must pave the way measure. The Bill represents a step forward, but there for a formula set by the Government and not the BBC, are considerable— providing parity with other broadcasting organisations. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Time It is also vital for S4C to remain financially and is up. operationally independent, and not to be run by the BBC. The DCMS has made clear that it expects S4C to 7.42 pm be independent, and has given a number of undertakings to guarantee that. It would be helpful if the Department Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): I also made abundantly clear that the BBC must not have shall confine my remarks to the proposed emasculation its personnel in S4C’s management team, and that S4C of the office of the chief coroner. In the three years must remain in charge. Discussions are taking place to during which I had the honour to serve as both Minister find a suitable model, but it is hard not to conclude that of State for the Armed Forces and then Secretary of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has put State for Defence, a high priority for me and the entire all its eggs in one basket in an attempt to meet the time ministerial team was to improve the service we gave to frame for this Bill, instead of addressing fundamentally the bereaved of our fallen. We did so not to waste public the challenges of supporting S4C in an age when digital money, but because it was absolutely necessary and services have led to an increasingly fragmented market absolutely deserved. and at a time of reduced public expenditure. This looks Our proposals were supported by Members on both rushed, and it would surely be better to carry out a full sides of the House. We created the Defence Inquests review of how S4C should be constituted, with the aim Unit to examine, chase and dig out problems within the of finding a long-term solution, whether that be a Ministry of Defence and the individual armed forces model of full funding from Westminster, a partnership themselves, and to make certain that failings were reported model along the lines proposed currently, albeit with a to Ministers so that progress could be made. In partnership stronger guarantee of independence, or even a channel with the Royal British Legion, we created the defence funded by the Welsh Government in the event of advisory service, which has just completed its first year broadcasting being devolved. of operation and is highly respected by those who, sadly, have to use its services. All four party leaders in Wales wrote to the Culture Secretary in support of such a review. The Select Committee During the years I served as a Defence Minister, I on Welsh Affairs report into S4C stated that this haste read many transcripts and followed many inquests, and was “regrettable”, and the Select Committee on Culture, I have to say to the Government and the entire House Media and Sport said that it found it that there are wide variations in both the manner and quality of coronial inquests. From time to time—too “extraordinary that the Government and the BBC, which is often, I am afraid—they let down our armed forces fiercely protective of its own independence, should find it acceptable to agree a change in the funding and governance arrangements and the bereaved. I would single out for particular for another statutorily independent broadcaster, S4C, without the praise Mr Masters, the Trowbridge coroner, who was latter having any involvement, say or even knowledge of the deal unsurpassable in his dedication and ability. He certainly until it has been done.” exposed failings within the MOD with regard to the It strikes me that this is the respect agenda in reverse. XV179 Hercules crash, when we lost 10 personnel. We also lost 14 in the XV230 Nimrod crash, and we had to It is of great concern that very little consideration employ the services of Mr Haddon-Cave to get to the seems to have been given to an holistic way forward. On bottom of the problems. That was not a waste of a matter as important as Welsh language broadcasting, money; it was an absolute necessity that that inquiry that is obviously not good enough, and I would welcome was carried out. it if the Minister provided an assessment of the current situation regarding negotiations over the future of S4C, Mr Kevan Jones: My right hon. Friend and I had and say whether the Government would consider removing dealings with some of the families of those who served the provisions relating to S4C until all the possible in Afghanistan and Iraq. Does he agree that what they 235 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 236

[Mr Kevan Jones] Leader of the House is sitting on the Government Front Bench and he was suggesting earlier that this was want are inquiries that are not only thorough but are not necessary and that the arguments in favour of the conducted in a timely fashion, and that they also want establishment of an office of chief coroner were spurious. the role of the chief coroner to be independent of the That is not what he was saying in opposition and it is Ministry of Justice, not part of it? not what his party was saying in opposition. It is a disgrace that he has crossed the Floor of the House and Mr Ainsworth: Independence is absolutely essential, changed his tone in the manner in which he has. Their and if inquests are not carried out in a timely fashion, own Back Benchers will force both parties to do this but instead unnecessary delay is caused, that leads to sooner or later, and the House of Lords will force them huge distress. Most important, however, is the quality if that does not happen, but I say to them that they of the investigation, because when people have lost must remove this provision from the Bill and allow the their loved ones they want to know that lessons are establishment of the chief coroner. They will not get being learned and others will not unnecessarily be subject away with this. to the same error that caused their loved one to lose their life. Several hon. Members rose— From my experiences in this area, this is what I would Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I call Glyn say, with the greatest of respect, to the Government: Davies. Ministers cannot advise or train or lead an independent coronial service. It is preposterous for the Government 7.50 pm to suggest that the functions of the office of the chief coroner should be rolled into some ministerial committee. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Thank you, They will not con the Royal British Legion in that Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this regard. important Second Reading debate. The Bill gives the Government of the day the power to set alight a bonfire In the course of my responsibilities, I met many of the quangos. Over recent decades, I have been involved bereaved families, who went through their bereavement in a few of these bonfires. I particularly recall one such with great dignity and very ably dealt with the problems bonfire in the early 1990s, when I was very much part of they faced. None were more impressive than Mr and “quangoland” and I painfully ended up on top of one Mrs Dicketts—Priscilla and Robert. Robert Dicketts of the bonfires. I was heavily singed, but no real harm spoke in this House a few months ago, and he recognised was done. the improvements that had been made, but he also said: Another bonfire of the quangos that I was involved “However, until there is a Chief Coroner, through whom good with was carried out by the Welsh Assembly Government practice can be driven through the coronial system, it is likely bereaved Armed Forces families will have to go through a system a few years ago, when I was a Member of the National which is often inconsistent and desperately in need of modernisation.” Assembly for Wales, and I wish to comment on how that was conducted in order to draw a comparison with Sooner or later, Ministers will listen to the voice of the the democratic and consultative excellence of the processes Royal British Legion and of people such as Robert being followed here at Westminster. That bonfire represented Dicketts, and they will drop their proposal. a major change in the governance of Wales, as it included the abolition of the Welsh Development Agency and Robert Flello: As ever, my right hon. Friend is making the Wales TouristBoard, among other bodies. No discussion a passionate and thoughtful speech. Would he like to took place on this; the First Minister simply addressed comment on what Chris Simpkins, director general of the Chamber on the last day before the summer recess The the Royal British Legion, has written in today’s and announced abolition, without warning, debate or Daily Telegraph in response to comments from the discussion. The debate about the consequences of that Ministry of Justice about the chief coroner not being bonfire is not for today, except to say that it highlights justified financially in the current climate? He said: the way in which our democratic system works in the “This feeble cost argument should fool no one.” UK Parliament. The Minister for the Cabinet Office put forward his Mr Ainsworth: I do not believe the cost argument proposals last October. They have since been significantly would bear any scrutiny in any case, because I believe amended in the upper House by their lordships and the creation of the office of the chief coroner will save they have been further amended by a written statement money, not cost money, and that it will save heartache tabled only yesterday about S4C, prior to their being as well as money. debated at great length by us in the Chamber today. I I have to say to Ministers that all their attempts in suggest that the Bill is far better for its amendment and recent times to muddy the water in this regard and it demonstrates just how effectively our second revising pretend that they have effectively dealt with the objections Chamber functions in its unamended form. I wish to they have rightly received from those who seek to represent say in passing how much I greatly enjoyed reading and our armed forces and the bereaved will be of no avail learning from the powerful speeches made by Lord and they will sooner or later surrender to the inevitable. Wigley, Lord Roberts of Conwy and Lord Elystan-Morgan They will do it this side of Remembrance day, and for in the other place. their own sake they will do it sooner rather than later. Non-departmental public bodies play an important I say to the Government: remove this provision from role in our democratic system and the Bill does not the Bill; accept the setting up of the highly necessary challenge that principle. Its main purpose is to increase office of the chief coroner; and honour the military accountability and transparency, and to limit the role of covenant. That is what is required from this Government. public bodies to that which is needed for good governance. It is also what both coalition parties agreed. The Deputy My right hon. Friend the Minister considered more 237 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 238 than 900 of these public bodies currently in existence couple of years, almost universal consensus that having and applied the appropriate test of value to them before the post of chief coroner would bring about real progress deciding on their future. It is important to recognise in raising standards, and would provide leadership, and to say that many of these public bodies are hugely direction and a degree of accountability.It is disappointing valuable to society, bringing private sector and voluntary that we do not have that consensus now. sector expertise into the process of government and The truth of the matter is that in my part of the often facilitating much of what might be referred to as world, the Teesside area, we need the coroner to improve “the big society”. The Bill is about identifying which and we need a much better service for families. For the public bodies bring value to the governance of the UK best part of a decade, performance measures for the and which do not. Teesside coroner have been significantly below the average I particularly wish to refer, as many others have for England and Wales. Eight years ago, the Teesside before, to Sianel Pedwar Cymru—S4C—which is one of coroner, Mr Michael Sheffield, had a backlog of about the bodies mentioned in the Bill. S4C is a unique body 200 cases, and bereaved families had a wait of about that is of great importance to Wales. It is not just a TV 35 weeks—double the national average at the time—for channel; it is the cultural backbone of Wales and its an inquest to be completed. The then Lord Chancellor, success is inextricably linked to the recent success of the Lord Falconer, responded to calls from local MPs of Welsh language. The long-term decline of the Welsh the time, such as Dari Taylor, the late and great Ashok language has been halted over recent years, but without Kumar and Vera Baird, as well as from my hon. Friend S4C that decline would resume. The Welsh language is the Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell), by fundamental to what makes Wales the proud and distinctive launching an inquiry. Mr Sheffield claimed at the time nation that it is. that he welcomed an inquiry, stating, somewhat bizarrely: I enjoyed what Lord Elystan-Morgan said about “I hope that the terms of the inquiry will enable the cause of Welsh in the other place so much that I wish to quote the backlog of inquests to be inquired into.” from his speech. He said: That raises the question: if the coroner himself did not “A living language with a living literature is a jewel in the know the reasons for the delays, why did he not know treasury of human culture, and the Welsh language no more and and how could others hold him accountable for that? no less than any other living language is such a jewel. It is 1,500 In the aftermath of the inquiry, performance measures years old and was in existence at least 500 years before the French language came into being. The French language came into being for the Teesside coroner improved, but over the past few only at the end of the first millennium; up till then it was a patois years they have grown steadily worse again. Last year, of Latin. That shows something of the pedigree of the language the average time taken in England and Wales to complete that we are talking about.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, inquests was 27 weeks—just over six months—whereas 9 March 2011; Vol. 725, c. 1628.] the equivalent figure for the Teesside coroner’s district S4C is crucial to the language’s cultural preservation. was 43 weeks. The coroner’s office took more than I am pleased that the Secretary of State for Culture, 12 months to complete inquests into 76 deaths—a quarter Olympics, Media and Sport has recognised the concern of all the deaths it investigated in 2010—and three expressed in the debate in the upper House, throughout quarters of all cases it investigated took more than six Wales and in the Chamber today, and has removed S4C months to conclude. from schedule 4 to the Bill. That is a very welcome move By contrast, the coroner for my Hartlepool constituency but, as we realise from today’s debate, there will be —Hartlepool and Teesside have traditionally had separate much discussion about the future of S4C and that has judicial administrative arrangements, and long may that yet to be settled. We seek to ensure its operational and continue—was able to conclude inquests in a significantly editorial independence in the long term, along with its better time scale than the national average. The average long-term financial security. I look forward to taking an time that the Hartlepool coroner took to investigate active part in the consultation that there will be on the deaths in 2010 was only 20 weeks, and no investigation governance arrangements for S4C over the next few took more than 12 months to conclude. The Hartlepool months. coroner has consistently over-performed in terms of the This Bill is hugely important, as it will ensure a time taken to conclude inquests. Why is there such a greater level of accountability and transparency within difference? Why is the difference in performance so our democratic system, and I look forward to seeing it striking? Why does Hartlepool do so well compared passed into law. with the national average, whereas the Teesside district lags so far behind?

7.56 pm Robert Flello: Does my hon. Friend think that taking Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): I wish to confine such matters in-house in the Ministry of Justice, hiding my remarks to the issue of the office of chief coroner. them away so that they are the responsibility of some Successive reviews and inquiries over many years have civil servant one week and of some department the highlighted the need for a chief coroner to oversee next, will improve things and make them better? standards and handle appeals to deal with unsatisfactory decisions. There are currently no performance management Mr Wright: No, I think it will make them much procedures and no appraisals on the performance of worse. That sense of accountability, which we do not individual coroners. There is no culture of mandatory have at the moment, would arguably be lost for ever. continuing professional development, as there is in the Is the contrast I just mentioned a question of resources, medical, legal or accountancy professions; some coroners particularly at a time of local authority cuts? Is it a may choose simply not to undergo further training and question of competency? Is it a question of needing development, and no one is there to pull them up about additional training? We do not know, because the whole it. There seems to have been, certainly over the past process is opaque and shrouded in mystery. In the 239 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 240

[Mr Iain Wright] than I had anticipated, but I emphasise that it was unanimously agreed by all members of the Committee modern age, that is not good enough. Why can families of all political parties. in Teesside who have suffered through the death of a We expressed concerns at the time about the way the loved one not have some help and support and see the review was conducted, and we have heard some of them efficient and swift conclusion of the inquest? That is the in the Chamber this afternoon. We found that the tests very least that they deserve. determining whether a public body should be retained or reformed were poorly designed and not applied Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that consistently and that Ministers had failed to consult because we will not have a chief coroner who can adequately about them. The Government have suggested improve standards, we will get more appeals? The only that they intend to hold triennial reviews of non- way to go forward at the moment is a judicial review, so departmental public bodies and I urge them to reconsider will the cost of dealing with such cases not increase the tests to see how they can be reviewed. rather than decrease? The tests in the Bill are different from the tests applied in the review and I invite the Minister to explain Mr Wright: I absolutely agree. It will not be value for why that is so. As the Minister for the Cabinet Office money for the public purse. There will be additional and Paymaster General pointed out earlier, there are costs and one of the virtues of a chief coroner’s office effectively four tests in the review: the first is existential; would be to help provide an overview of work allocation. the second is whether the body concerned carries out a I think the establishment of a chief coroner could highly technical activity; the third is whether it is required provide a more rational and therefore more efficient to be impartial; and the fourth is whether it needs to act allocation of work, perhaps through the creation of independently to establish facts. That is a good stab at specialist coroners who could provide specific expertise. the tests required, but funnily enough those are not the We could save money and provide a better service for tests in the Bill. Clause 8, entitled “Purpose and conditions”, bereaved families. gives four tests: “efficiency”; “effectiveness”, which is a It is impossible, or difficult at the very least, for very broad term and is not defined; “economy”, which Members of this House to hold coroners to account for we presume means value for money; and their performance. I recently asked a parliamentary “securing appropriate accountability to Ministers”. question to the Lord Chancellor about the grounds on which an individual holding the post of coroner can be Again, I do not know what “appropriate accountability” removed from that office only to be told by the Minister is, and these are very subjective tests to have in legislation. that the only ground for removal was personal misconduct Clause 8(2) suggests that any reform of a non- or behaviour, but the Minister could not provide a departmental public body should definitive list of possible offences. The Lord Chancellor “not remove any necessary protection”, can remove a coroner only with the agreement of the whatever that means, and should not Lord Chief Justice. There is simply no transparency in the matter and no criteria by which the House or the “prevent any person from continuing to exercise any right or freedom”, public can hold a local coroner to account and determine whether he or she is providing an unsatisfactory service which is quite specific and probably an important protection. and should be removed. In this day and age—particularly In our report, we suggested in paragraph 23: when, as we have heard from the Royal British Legion, “There should be a single set of tests that covers: whether a servicemen and women are falling for our country— function needs to be performed”— bereaved families in Teesside and elsewhere deserve the existential test— better. They deserve greater clarity and transparency. “whether it is appropriate for it to be performed independently by I have written to the Lord Chancellor about the a public body”, matter of poor time scales in the Teesside district and I which is surely the impartiality test, am awaiting a response, but let me reiterate in conclusion “and how it can be delivered most cost-effectively (value for that families in Teesside deserve to see inquests into money).” the deaths of loved ones concluded with sympathy, professionalism and swiftness. They are not getting that I hope that that recommendation might be better reflected at the moment and are not being provided with an in the Bill. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet adequate explanation on why and how matters will be Office, the hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood and improved. The Bill does not help; in fact, it makes Pinner (Mr Hurd), could address that later. things worse. The Committee also considered the Government’s claim that abolishing bodies and transferring their functions 8.2 pm back to Departments would improve accountability, and I submit that the Government are applying a rather Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): narrow test of what constitutes accountability. Of course, I am most grateful for the opportunity to speak at this Ministers want to retain influence over decisions for stage in the debate. which they are ultimately accountable, but our conclusion The Bill is significant by any standards and represents was that to focus exclusively on that traditional form of the Government’s plans to implement their reform of ministerial accountability ignores other ways in which public bodies as a result of the review they carried out bodies are held to account. In particular, we are all in the second half of last year. The Select Committee on aware of how stakeholder groups and civil society play Public Administration, which I chair, inquired into the an important role in providing challenge and criticism review at the time and published a report last January. to public bodies from day to day so long as they have a Somewhat to my surprise, the report was more controversial clearly identifiable focus for that challenge. I do not 241 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 242 wish to denigrate civil servants in any way, but a civil inquiry, which was the product of painstaking work by servant in a Department is a far more anonymous entity Dame Janet Smith into the failure of the death certification than a named public body. The Committee proposed system to identify and stop the murderous activities of that converting public bodies into executive agencies Harold Shipman. Dame Janet concluded that coroners could ensure that Ministers remained responsible for and the coroner service must be independent of clearly identifiable bodies within their departmental Government and that it was simply unacceptable for the responsibilities without losing that public focus. coroner service to be administered from within a We also considered a number of other topics that we Government Department. That conclusion was hugely felt were important to make the reforms a success, relevant given what the Government now propose. including how Departments sponsor their public bodies and how the transition should be managed. The Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): Does my right hon. Government’s response was somewhat critical of parts Friend agree that quite frequently the Government may of our analysis, particularly the comments on cost be judged as culpable in contributing to a death and savings, and I was glad to hear ministerial clarification that it is therefore bizarre that a member of the Cabinet—the earlier this year of how cost savings will be made. To the Lord Chancellor—should have some responsibility for Government’s credit, they accepted a number of our the coronial service? recommendations, including the conversion of some public bodies into executive agencies. Paul Goggins: My hon. Friend makes a very important point. In December, when this matter was debated in This is a controversial Bill, because we do not have an the other place, Lord Lester made the important point Armed Forces Minister or a Justice Minister at the that unless there is a properly independent system of Dispatch Box to answer all these problems. It is that investigation of deaths, the Government cannot be confident shortcoming in the Bill that led the other place to make about satisfying their article 2 obligations on the substantial amendments to it. It is much improved and investigation of deaths. That is particularly relevant in much more acceptable and I shall certainly support it, relation to deaths in prison and police custody. but we could make improvements to ensure that these controversial changes to bodies that were, after all, In March 2004, I set out proposals for reform in brought into being through primary legislation are not which the bereaved and their families were to be placed simply ticked off by Ministers with a stroke of the pen. at the heart of the system. Ministers should be reminded of the importance of putting those people at the heart of the system. Under the proposals, a chief coroner was 8.8 pm to be appointed with complete judicial independence to Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I lead a streamlined and modernised service, to ensure have particular concerns about two bodies that were training and high standards and to carry responsibility taken out of the Bill by the House of Lords but that the for undertaking appeals and presiding over more complex Government intend, as the Minister for the Cabinet inquests. Eventually, the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 Office and Paymaster General has suggested this afternoon, enacted those proposals. I pay tribute to Bridget Prentice—a to put back into the Bill in Committee. I remain hopeful good friend and very able Minister—who with characteristic that Ministers are still listening and are prepared to energy and determination turned the countless words of change their minds. the public inquiries, reviews and consultations into The Youth Justice Board has brought leadership and legislation, which was passed with the support of all coherence to a system that was deeply fragmented. The parties in the House, including those that now turn their creation of youth offending teams has been very impressive, backs on it. as has the reduction in the number of young people The need for a chief coroner is even greater now, with going into custody: a 30% reduction over the lifetime of inquests becoming ever more complex and high-profile. the board. I would expect the Government to be interested Only recently, we have had the Tomlinson and in that if for no other reason than because it represents 7/7 inquests—cases in point. Another change since 2003, a saving, in relation to the places that have now been which my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry decommissioned, of £38 million a year. If the Youth North East (Mr Ainsworth) referred to in his very Justice Board is abolished, that might lead to a saving of powerful speech, has been the experience of bereaved a few hundred thousand pounds, but if the Government families of the servicemen and women killed in Iraq lose their grip on the youth offending system and and Afghanistan. Their experience screams out for a particularly of youth custody because the board is not system that is sympathetic, that understands the in place to grip it, that could produce incredibly high circumstances they face and that has their confidence. costs in future. The Government’s arguments about costs do not I am also deeply worried about the Government’s hold water and cannot be justified. Ministers should intention to dilute the office of the chief coroner. I hope not simply accept the figures in the impact assessment that the House will forgive me for setting out the history but should challenge them. There is not one Member of so that Members and Ministers can appreciate the this House who does not believe that the set-up and depth of betrayal that many individuals, families and running costs of the office of the chief coroner could organisations are feeling. In 2003, I was given ministerial not be reduced. It is the business of Ministers to get responsibility for death certification and coroners’ services. those costs down, not to hide behind what was in the One of the first things I did in that role was to receive impact assessment. Of course, they are not counting the the report of the independent review of coroner services costs of failing to implement the reforms that were led by Tom Luce. He found that the system was outdated, agreed in the last Parliament, such as the £500,000 or inconsistent and unsympathetic to families, and he proposed more that is spent every year on judicial reviews—not to fundamental reform. A little time later, the then Home mention the costs that will be incurred by transferring Secretary and I received the third report of the Shipman some of the functions of the office of the chief coroner 243 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 244

[Paul Goggins] John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): We’re all Blairites now are we? to the Lord Chief Justice. Those matters will still need to be overseen by judges, and judges do not come for Alun Cairns: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if nothing—they cost money. Those costs still are not he wishes. being counted. It is unlikely that Mr Blair and I would agree on the nature of reforms, but this legislation paves the way for Mr Kevan Jones: Is it not remarkable that although Ministers to make necessary changes with appropriate the Government have announced that they will transfer scrutiny—without the delay that Mr Blair talked about—by the powers of the chief coroner to the Ministry of giving them the mechanisms to do so. I am sure that Justice and others, they have not yet laid out what that hon. Members will have a soft spot for one or two of the will cost to administer? bodies listed in the schedules, despite wanting to see the reform of such public bodies. We might even be drawn Paul Goggins: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. It into trying to defend those institutions. Such an approach really is a shabby case. The Government are relying on would be fair if schedule 7 of the original Bill remained old figures, which have not been challenged, and bringing and if the amendments made in the other place had not forward proposals that have absolutely no work behind been accepted by Ministers. To give the Government them whatever. My hon. Friend makes an important credit, they have sought to listen to concerns and have and powerful point. accepted the threat that schedule 7 posed to lack of In failing to follow through on these reforms, the scrutiny. However, there must always be a balance between Government are not considering the human and health the Government having their way and the opportunity costs that will be incurred by our not learning the for appropriate scrutiny. The original schedule 7 did not lessons of unfortunate and tragic deaths—information necessarily achieve the equilibrium that we are looking that could help to prevent deaths in future. Ministers for; I am pleased that it has been removed. have no proposals to monitor timeliness or to introduce It is hard to believe that the quango state had grown an appeals system. Other hon. Members have made the to 901 bodies under the previous Administration. In point about the importance of that issue. their desire to manage controversies, a new agency What the Government are doing to the office of the would often be established to show that something was chief coroner is a betrayal. If they proceed with this being done. Some might even argue that the agencies reform they will be turning their back on six or seven were useful bodies to which to retire former colleagues. years’worth of patient consultation and policy development, The case for winding up or reorganising their numbers which led to legislation that was agreed by all parties in and purposes is overwhelming. the House. They will be turning their back on Tom Luce, Dame Janet Smith, the families of the victims of Mr Kevan Jones: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, Harold Shipman and the bereaved families of the service but the worst culprit for packing quangos was the personnel who have lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. previous Conservative Government. If he cares to do They will be turning their back on many vulnerable his homework, he will find that one quango we invented, people who have had to pick their way through our with which I have had a few run-ins, is the independent outdated coronial system. But the Government still Appointments Commission. It took out of politicians’ have a chance: they have the rest of this evening and hands altogether the appointment of people to quango Committee proceedings finally to do the right thing and boards. drop these proposals. Alun Cairns: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but it was the previous Conservative 8.17 pm Government who cleaned up the appointments process Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Thank you to ensure that there was transparency in selection. I for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this point to the Independent Parliamentary Standards debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. Although, as been said, the Authority as one of the worst examples of a Government Bill is a piece of enabling legislation, it goes to the heart of merely reacting to public concerns without thinking the Government and their objectives. It will enable Ministers through the consequences in a proper, deliberate way; it to make the necessary changes to reform public services has given rise to many complaints from this House, and and bring organisations to democratic accountability, there is also the issue of the additional costs of that and it paves the way to bring significant savings. agency. It is ironic that the Bill is being opposed by the Mr Jones: If the hon. Gentleman will cite examples, I Labour party. In his memoirs, Tony Blair made several wish he would do his homework. IPSA was supported references to having regretted the delays in reforming by Members in all parts of the House; the strongest public services during the early years of his government. advocate for it was the current Prime Minister. There are several quotes that I could mention, but it is worth highlighting his thoughts about his previous Alun Cairns: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s comments that it was not complex institutional structures intervention, and I accept the point about all-party but outcomes that mattered. He said: support, but the point is the knee-jerk reaction of the “Unfortunately, as I began to realise when experience started Prime Minister of the day, who took the decision without to shape our thinking, it was bunkum….How a service is configured providing for appropriate scrutiny. The proposal was affects outcomes.” rushed through the House without the then Opposition It is also worth noting that much of his frustration having an opportunity to make their case. I need to related to the time and delay involved in making reforms. make progress, because of the time. I want to come on This Bill would have met Mr Blair’s calls in hindsight. to some of the points made earlier. 245 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 246

A word of caution: merely merging individual bodies 8.25 pm with a Government Department is not necessarily the Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) right thing to do. There must be reform and enhancement. (PC): I want to concentrate on the very worrying impact I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Minister for that the Bill will have on S4C, an institution of paramount the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General for talking importance to my country. I regret to say that I have a about the need for reform when he opened the debate. I slightly different opinion from the hon. Member for speak from experience of the so-called bonfire of the Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). There is no doubt quangos in Wales some years ago. For purely political that the UK Government have dealt with the issue in a reasons, the Welsh Assembly Government abolished the haphazard manner. They clearly failed to understand Welsh Development Agency and the Wales Tourist Board, the importance of S4C to Wales. Twenty-four bodies among many other organisations. That was welcomed from Welsh civil society have written to the UK by Labour, Plaid Cymru and Liberal Democrat politicians Government, asking them to change their plans; thousands at the time. The claim was that there would be better of people have protested on the streets; and hon. Members democratic accountability, but the reality was very different. from Wales have had countless pieces of correspondence Simply merging the organisations without reform meant from concerned constituents. that agency staff became civil servants, and the expertise gained over many years was stifled by the bureaucracy The position of my party is that S4C should not be of the civil service. Those events started almost seven included in the Bill at all, and that the arrangements years ago to this day, and those very people who were should be dealt with in a future broadcasting Bill, the strongest cheerleaders for the winding up of those following an independent review. That was the position bodies are now calling for their re-establishment. of all four political parties in the National Assembly for Wales, including the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. I am certainly not opposed to the lists in the schedules, Even at this late stage, that would be our preferred or to the need for Ministers to reform and reorganise. I outcome. However, we are where we are, and I will strongly agree with the objectives of the legislation, but endeavour to attempt to improve the Bill before us, as caution against winding up for winding up’s sake. I will my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel would also underline the need to make reform part of Williams) in Committee. the process. There must be a wider reforming agenda to Ministers will be aware that the Select Committee on improve services. Welsh Affairs undertook a detailed investigation into In the final couple of minutes available to me, I want S4C. It is right and proper that I pay tribute to the to talk about S4C. The hon. Member for Clwyd South Chair of the Committee, the hon. Member for Monmouth (Susan Elan Jones) made a pretty disingenuous (David T. C. Davies), who managed to produce a report contribution. To talk about a 96% cut to funding certainly on which there is substantial consensus across all four is not accurate. S4C will receive a 6% funding cut per parties on the Committee. We await the Department’s annum over the next four years. That is very different reply, but I would like to concentrate on the issues that from the sort of figures that she talked about. Furthermore, are of critical importance. S4C will face substantial cuts all the demands made by supporters of S4C have been to its budget over the spending review period. If my met by the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, sums are correct, the Department has managed to Media and Sport. I shall go through the primary ones in reduce its liability by more than 90%. turn. The first was about the importance of long-term funding. I was delighted that in the written ministerial Alun Cairns: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? statement published on Monday, the Government said: “The Government are committed to ensuring that S4C will be Jonathan Edwards: I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s funded at a level sufficient to ensure that it can fulfil its statutory question before he asks it: S4C’s funding will fall from remit and we intend to put this expectation on the statute book so around £100 million this year to £83 million by 2014-15; that it is a legal requirement.”—[Official Report, 11 July 2011; £76 million of that will come from the BBC, and Vol. 531, c. 2-3 WS.] £7 million from the Department. Certainly, that issue has been resolved. Alun Cairns: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Secondly, the need for independence, both operational giving way, but does he not accept that the outcome leaves and editorial, has been accepted by the Secretary of S4C in a pretty strong position, financially? It will receive State for Wales. Thirdly, on the issue of the arrangements a 6% cut over each of the next four years, which is a with the BBC, of course the provisions have to be in the much lesser cut than those to most spending Departments Bill to secure the very independence that we have been across Government. Furthermore, independent television talking about, and the long-term funding arrangements producers have welcomed the outcome, saying that for which everyone has called. Those who are critical on the cuts are certainly achievable, within the sums in the subject of S4C, and the strongest champions of the question. channel, are not equally critical when it comes to Radio Cymru, for which the BBC is also responsible, so there is significant inconsistency in the argument that is made. Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful for that intervention, and the hon. Gentleman leads me on to my next point, Finally, it is ironic that the retail prices index link was which is about one of the key recommendations of the part of the fault. Many S4C Authority members have Welsh Affairs Committee report. I would like the shown arrogance over the past year; they felt that they Government, as part of the Bill—and the future funding had the right to do things irrespective of the attitude of formula for S4C, which was announced yesterday—to viewers, whose numbers have been falling for the past state clearly that cuts will be comparable to those for five years or more. It is time to act, and I am delighted other public service broadcasters. That would appease that the Government are doing so. many in Wales. 247 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 248

[Jonathan Edwards] I shall deal briefly with other consequences of the Bill for Wales. Much of the rest of the Bill refers to powers The Select Committee report also called on the UK over environmental bodies being devolved to Wales. Government to safeguard the funding for the channel These bodies are listed in clause 13 as being the Welsh beyond 2014-15. We argued that without long-term devolved functions of the Countryside Council for Wales, certainty of funding, the channel would not be able to the Environment Agency, the Forestry Commissioners plan its future commissioning strategy. We called for a and Welsh flood and coastal committees. I seek clarification long-term funding formula enacted in primary legislation. of clause 18 and the requirement of consent from UK I therefore welcome the written statement yesterday as a Ministers. How is this to be operated, and in what positive step forward. The devil will be in the detail, but situations do Ministers expect this to take place? I am my colleagues and I look forward to working constructively also confused by the reference to the Secretary of State to build on yesterday’s announcement, which in our in clause 20(11). Does this mean that any order made by view would have to be based on some sort of inflationary Welsh Ministers will be subject to a veto by the Houses calculation. of Parliament? That would clearly go against the result As a party we have major concerns that S4C will of the referendum in March. We will test these clauses mostly be dependent on funding via the licence fee. Our in greater detail in Committee. preference would be for a direct funding stream. If the Finally, on consumer advocacy in Wales, the Bill Department is intent on funding S4C via the BBC, the proposes that Consumer Focus be abolished and its licence fee should be top-sliced. As my right hon. friend functions transferred to Citizens Advice in Wales and Lord Wigley said during the passage of the Bill in the England. There is broad support for distinct consumer other place: advocacy for Wales. There seems to be strong support among key stakeholders for advice and advocacy in “He who pays the piper calls the tune.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 28 March 2011; Vol. 726, c. 1005.] Wales being brought under one body. I am glad that the UK Government have stated that they are open to If S4C does not have total control over its own budget, making different provisions for Wales and Scotland its financial independence will be shot to pieces. following discussions with the devolved Administrations. Ministers might be aware that the Broadcasting I understand that current consumer bodies such as the Entertainment Cinematograph and Theatre Union, the CAB movement in Wales are adapting their governance National Union of Journalists, the Writers Guild of structures in light of anticipated changes, and I urge the Great Britain, Equity, the Musicians Union, and Department to work closely with Welsh Government Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg have all jointly called for Ministers and stakeholders to develop a solution that is the resources available to S4C to be increased by raising client-focused and best able to respond to the needs of a levy on private broadcasters, drawing on best practice the Welsh people. in other countries. 8.33 pm Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): The hon. Gentleman Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): It is mentions the need for funding to be raised from other more than 50 years since the term “quango” was first broadcasters. Does he accept that the Select Committee coined in the United States, during which time a rising report indicated that the Welsh Assembly could play a number of such bodies have emerged from Government. part? The Welsh Assembly claims that it wants the As some of them have served their purpose, they lie in channel to be accountable to it, yet it is not willing to the governmental universe like abandoned satellites and put any money into the pot. pieces of space debris that no one can quite manage to get rid of.

Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful for that intervention David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Will my hon. and I look forward to the day when broadcasting is Friend join me in saying that Governments of left and devolved to the Welsh Government. In light of events of right over the past few years have called for an end to recent weeks, I expected support from across the House the quango state? One hopes, therefore, that Members for the innovative idea of a levy on private broadcasters in all parts of the House will give their utmost support to support public service broadcasting in the UK. I to the Bill, which will allow us to get rid of some of the hope Ministers are actively pursuing the idea. space debris that is no longer required. That brings me to operational independence. The Elizabeth Truss: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Committee called for assurances that operationally there I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Vale would be no role for the BBC in the day-to-day management of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), who said that such bodies of S4C. I for one cannot see how anyone can claim that are often set up because Government believe that something S4C is an independent broadcaster if it has personnel ought to be done and to give some plausible deniability from another channel running its day-to-day affairs. I to difficult and controversial decisions that the Government hope the Department will make a clear statement on the do not want to own. It is only right that we should make issue as the Bill progresses. it easier to get rid of bodies that no longer serve their The ability of a public service broadcaster to hold purpose and that lie in a twilight zone, subject neither to Government to account is essential if it is to retain the proper democratic accountability nor to the rigours of confidence of its audience. Therefore we view the inclusion the market, with consumers having no choice on whether of S4C in schedule 3 as particularly worrying. The to use them. schedule enables the Department to make significant Quango chiefs are often paid more than senior civil changes to the management and organisation of S4C servants. The chief executive of Partnerships for Schools without recourse to primary legislation. is paid £215,000 a year for the botched job that was 249 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 250

Building Schools for the Future, the chief executive of We should compare the QCDA’s approach with what the Higher Education Funding Council is paid £230,000 the Department for Education is now doing on the a year for administering university places, and the chief curriculum review: having public discussions, making executive of the London Probation Trust is paid £240,000 the decisions publicly accountable and being open to a year. There are other bodies that rely heavily on scrutiny and accountable to Back Benchers during Government funds but are not actually quangos, and Education questions. That is far preferable to those their chief executives and directors general can command decisions being taken behind closed doors in a quango. even higher salaries. For example, the director-general Ministers can be lobbied and the finances of the of the BBC is paid £615,000, the vice chancellor of organisations can be scrutinised, and we do not hear Birmingham university is paid £390,000 and Network this nonsense about commercial confidentiality. Rail’s chief executive, whose new salary we do not Too many bodies have been making decisions that do know, was previously paid £1.25 million, even though not have due regard for electors or consumers. These that relied mainly on income streams that come from organisations have little incentive to save money, and the Government. they have high rewards where the job is essentially technocratic. We should have a system where no public Gavin Shuker: Of the six bodies that the hon. Lady money is spent without proper accountability and there has just mentioned, will she explain which are in the are no excessive rewards without taking a risk. This Bill Bill? is the right step forward in reducing the size of the twilight zone that has been created in British politics. I Elizabeth Truss: The point I am making is that we hope that the Government use this opportunity to bring have a huge universe out there, which this Bill seeks to even more of the space debris out of the twilight zone address. We are seeking to reduce the number of bodies and into the sunlight. and make them more accountable. My speech is about the importance of accountability, which the Bill lays 8.40 pm out. I believe that organisations and people that take real Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I rise to risks and put their homes and businesses on the line return to an issue that has been raised—the role of the deserve real rewards and to make a profit. That is what chief coroner. Like my right hon. Friend the Member motivates people in our economy and helps allocate for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), I resources. It is the invisible hand that has served this congratulate Bridget Prentice, who steered the legislation country well over generations. I think that we need through when she was the Minister responsible,. She more honest profit in this country, as that is what will did a fantastic job and deserves credit for it. The chief get us out of the hole we are in. We will not get out of coroner’s office was going to be created to improve that hole by spending more money on bodies for which national standards and to monitor compliance with the rewards are many, but the risks are few. My complaint what is, as we have heard, an archaic and shambolic about executives in the twilight zone is that they do not system. It would also have introduced the role of medical risk their own money and instead have a technocratic examiners, who would be able to scrutinise medical role. I think that their maximum pay should be that of a certificates, and ensured, for the first time, a bespoke senior civil servant, and the most senior civil servant in appeals system to save people the lengthy expense of the Home Office is paid £200,000. Private companies in going through judicial reviews. competitive markets carry out research, investigate their As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe customer loyalty and try to get people to buy their and Sale East said, it is important to state how we got to products. They have a real market and real consumers this point—it was not by accident. He referred to the to respond to. Luce review, which reported on death certificates and improvements in the service. He also mentioned the I am pleased to see the Bill go ahead. We are finally very important Shipman inquiry chaired by Dame Janet seeing the bonfire of the quangos that the previous Smith. If we agree to what the Government propose in Prime Minister and those before him talked about. It is their amendments to take out what the Lords put into of course difficult to make these things happen, so I am the Bill, we will go against Dame Janet Smith’s pleased that the Government have persisted. I want to recommendation, as stated on page 492 of the report: talk about two late and lamented quangos that will disappear, the Legal Services Commission and the “The body which is to provide that leadership and support must be seen to be independent of Government. In my view, it Qualifications and Curriculum Development Agency. would no longer be satisfactory for the coroner service to be The Legal Services Commission presides over one of administered from within a Government Department.” the most expensive legal aid systems in the world, However, that is what is being proposed in place of the costing £120 million. It was attacked by the National chief coroner, and that is not acceptable. Audit Office for failing to hold lawyers to account and by lawyers for not understanding what they do. The Government have changed their position. Today I looked at the Hansard report of the debate on the The QCDA presided over some of the worst quality Second Reading of the Coroners and Justice Bill in exams in this country and an incoherent curriculum. Of 2009, when the current Attorney-General said: its eight board members, only one has been a teacher and none has higher education experience. The rest “We agree that reform of the coroners’ system is long overdue.”— were professional quangocrats who created such [Official Report, 26 January 2009; Vol. 487, c. 46.] abominations as the A-level in the use of mathematics, The hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James which was of a far lower standard than the actual Brokenshire), who was then the Member for Hornchurch, mathematics A-level, and the pick and mix of modular said: qualifications that has been developed in this country. “We all welcome the establishment of the chief coroner” 251 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 252

[Mr Kevan Jones] Two key objectives for the coalition are to tackle irresponsible Government spending and to deliver reform and of the public sector. The Bill will help to achieve both “the modernisation of the coroner’s powers of…investigation”.— those aims. [Official Report, 26 January 2009; Vol. 487, c. 111.] It is worth saying at the outset that some public bodies He said that that was well overdue. In his winding-up do important work and are a necessary response to the speech, the hon. Member for North West Norfolk complexity of modern government. However, they have (Mr Bellingham) said: become massively overused. When the Government came “Reform is, therefore, long overdue…I welcome the creation of to office, there were 901 quangos. In 2009, executive the posts of chief coroner and deputy chief coroner.”—[Official quangos alone—those that take decisions and do not Report, 26 January 2009; Vol. 487, c. 117.] just advise—employed 111,000 people at a cost to the So what has changed since? The Minister, in opening taxpayer of £38 billion. Governments of all political the debate, said that it was all about money. If it is, then persuasions share the blame for adding to this problem, the Government need first to provide the costs of setting but the previous Government certainly added to it in up and running the chief coroner’s office. They seem to abundance. Funding for executive quangos leapt by miss the point regarding taking these functions in-house 59% between 1997 and 2008. when they say that no cost is involved in that process at It is right that the Government are cracking down on all. That is clearly not the case. The figures that have the inflation of the quango state. They are doing so first been suggested include about £1 million a year as a and foremost through greater transparency in the exercise contingency for what, we do not know. The only thing of public functions and powers. In the current economic that has changed is the fact that the Government are climate, in which value for money is even more imperative using this argument about cost. If they are going to than usual, transparency and ministerial accountability make the big mistake of deleting the post of chief are especially vital. Government policy is also welcome coroner, they will have to justify every single penny of because abolishing and merging quangos and cutting costs, and the civil servants in the Ministry of Justice their programmes will save £30 billion over the spending will have to justify every single thing they do in terms of review period, as Ministers have reiterated yet again costs. today. Given the difficult spending decisions that have Clearly, we will not get what Dame Janet wanted, and inevitably been made elsewhere, it is essential to streamline what the Conservative Government and the Liberal Government as much as possible. Nowhere is that more Democrats in the previous Parliament wanted, which is important than in the sphere of quangos. an improvement in the coroner service. That is an It makes sense to merge bodies with comparable opportunity missed. We will still be stuck with the functions, as set out in clause 2. For example, the system that we have had for many centuries, which is proposed merger of the Office of Fair Trading and the not only not fit for purpose but outdated and bureaucratic. Competition Commission is designed to deliver more It also leads to delays in the hearing of coroners inquests, effective regulation. It will also realise annual cost savings which is unacceptable. of between £3.5 million and £6.8 million. It is right, as The Royal British Legion has stated that it does not Members across the House have done, to look at and support this reform and it argues strongly for the role of question the practical impact of these changes. On that chief coroner. It is also important to record that the particular merger, will the Minister say any more in his organisation, Cardiac Risk in the Young—I chair an winding-up speech about the institutional separation of all-party group on the issue—is vociferous in arguing powers between the initial investigation and the final that what is needed to improve the coroners service and enforcement decision? I have spoken to a number of the inquest service for the families of young people who competition lawyers and experts about that, and it is a die of sudden cardiac arrest is the role of the chief key feature of the current competition regime. How will coroner. We need to improve the system and stop the it be retained in the combined competition and markets untimely delays for those who die in action serving this authority? country. It is all right for the Government to say that The majority of savings will come not from mergers, they support the covenant; that needs to be supported but from cutting waste. Some quangos have been guilty in practice by establishing the role of the chief coroner. of the most appalling waste of taxpayers’ resources. I agree totally with my right hon. Friend the Member The right hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) that the (Tessa Jowell) made a spirited defence of the Equality Government will be forced to back down on this issue. I and Human Rights Commission. However, auditors suggest that they do it sooner rather than later. have refused to sign off its accounts for three years In closing, although I do not usually agree with running. Last year, it breached Government pay guidelines Viscount Slim, he summed up the issue well in the and spent more than £1 million without due authorisation. Lords last week in the debate on the Armed Forces Bill, It presided over a botched website launch, which eventually when he said that the deletion of the position of chief saw almost £1 million written off. Members do not need coroner is to take my word for that. The National Audit Office damningly concluded that “mean, short-sighted and rather stupid.”—[Official Report, House “there is little general financial understanding or competence in of Lords, 6 July 2011; Vol. 729, c. 299.] the organisation, and that many managers have limited experience of the effective management of public money.” 8.46 pm I discovered that for myself last week when I was informed through a parliamentary answer that a single Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): I welcome agency worker at the commission was paid an astonishing the opportunity to speak in this important debate. salary of £200,000 last year. How can that possibly be 253 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 254 justified? In the light of that, it is right that the commission For a hundred years agricultural workers fought against is listed in schedule 5 to the Bill, allowing its functions exploitation, then in 1948 we saw the establishment of to be modified or transferred by the Government, subject the Agricultural Wages Board. It has set standards in of course to the consultation on its future. the industry for 60 years and more on pay, sick pay, Other quangos that are to be scrapped in the Bill overtime, bereavement leave, protection for under-16s, should probably never have been created in the first apprenticeships and accommodation, and it has evolved place, and I make no apology for listing as chief among to meet the modern methods of agriculture with a them the eight regional development agencies, a pet system of six grades. They are settled and sensible project of the last Government that proved an expensive arrangements, covering 140,000 workers in the countryside failure. The RDAs were established in 1999 but did little and ensuring both fairness and fair competition. It is an to stimulate growth. Job creation in the five years before historic institution that not even Mrs Thatcher dared to their creation was higher than in the five years that abolish, but now that vital voice is to be silenced. followed despite the continued boom economic conditions. Inevitably, that will be followed by a race to the bottom They also failed to reduce regional imbalances, which in the countryside. was one of their main aims, as figures from the Office A second vital voice is to be silenced. The Rural for National Statistics amply demonstrate. Advocate, an independent voice for villages, is being The RDAs made a range of poor spending decisions. abolished by a Government who preach localism but Between 2007 and 2009, for example, 62% of all grants intend to establish in its place a rural communities went to predominantly public sector organisations, while policy unit based in Whitehall. the trade unions were awarded more than £3 million. There is a third voice that is to be muzzled. Recent That is not a spending pattern that inspires confidence, disturbing developments and the powers contained in nor is it one to drive a private sector-driven economic the Bill threaten the future of the Gangmasters Licensing recovery. The RDAs will not be missed by those trying Authority. I co-ordinated the coalition of support that to drive jobs and growth in the private sector, especially brought the GLA into existence—a remarkable all-party as scrapping them will save three quarters of a billion coalition, including, from plough to plate, the National pounds in administration costs alone between now and Farmers Union and the supermarkets. All in the coalition 2015. It is high time to shed light on quangos’ activities were determined to work together so that never again and cut down on waste. would we see another incident such as that in Morecambe Looking ahead, I also welcome the commitment bay, where 22 young Chinese cockle pickers died a made by the Minister for the Cabinet Office in his terrible death in the freezing sands, ringing home to statement in October to triennial reviews of the purpose their distraught families to say farewell. of the remaining quangos. They will be an important part of ensuring that the number of quangos does not David T. C. Davies: Is the hon. Gentleman seriously balloon again in future, but that provision for them trying to suggest that that terrible tragedy results from does not appear in the Bill. I ask the Minister to explain the current Government’s policies, when they were not why it will not be made a statutory requirement. Equally, the Government at the time? Was it not actually the Ministers have previously talked about a role for the fault of the previous Government’s lax immigration Public Administration Committee in vetting any new policy, which this Government are doing everything quangos. It would be interesting to know what the they possibly can to tighten up? status of that proposal is. Ultimately and overall, the Bill is a big step in the Jack Dromey: However a person is in a country, they right direction towards strengthening transparency and do not deserve to die a death like those young Chinese accountability while delivering savings for the taxpayer, did. and it has my full support. The GLA has been an outstanding success. Together with the president of the NFU and on behalf of the 8.52 pm industry, I appointed its chairman, Paul Whitehouse, a former chief constable, under whom the GLA has tackled Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): In some of the worst abuse in the world of work in the that great hymn to England, “Jerusalem”, we celebrate countryside. For example, intelligence-led operations our “green and pleasant land”, and our England is with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs recovered indeed a country characterised by a beautiful coast and millions in unpaid tax, and the GLA worked with the countryside, from the craggy cliffs of Cornwall through police to put away a gangmaster armed with a gun. the heart of England to Hadrian’s wall. Although we With others, the GLA has combated money laundering celebrate it, that beauty historically concealed an ugly and tax avoidance, and it now combats human trafficking. reality of rural poverty, of exploitation of farm workers Paul Whitehouse and the GLA worked with the good, and of an industry—agriculture—that is the most tackled the bad and made examples of the worst, driving dangerous in Britain. At its most obscene, there is the out of business disgraceful rogues, and raising standards modern-day slavery practised by ruthless gangmasters. across the industry, supported by the Association of Labour is a friend of our countryside. That is why we Labour Providers and reputable employers, who welcomed fought to defend our forests and why we amended the at last not just fairness, but fair competition. Localism Bill to protect our national heritage. We believe The Government have refused to reappoint Paul in a fair deal for our countryside. That is why we have Whitehouse. A new chair, with no history in enforcement, supported the work of Rural Advocate. We believe in has been appointed. She says that she is on a steep fairness in the countryside—fair treatment for the backbone learning curve and that she will have to learn all about of the rural economy, the farm workers and those who the sector, and she has downplayed the role of enforcement work for gangmasters. of the law. I fear for the future. 255 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 256

[Jack Dromey] Departments—or indirectly. I have experience in Watford of bodies that have been spun off and that are effectively Finally, the abolitions of the Agricultural Wages quangos. For example, the Community Housing Trust, Board and the Rural Advocate, and the threat to the which was part of the local council, is now a third-party GLA, are, taken together, an attack on the countryside. organisation and quasi-controlled by the council. In Our green and pleasant land should not be scarred by that respect, it is much the same as a Government exploitation. For the powerful to strip the vulnerable of quango. Management teams grow up, outside consultants protection is shameful. That is why the Opposition will are used all over the place and very high salaries—in oppose the Bill and stand up both for our countryside many cases higher than in the private sector—are paid, and for fair treatment in our countryside. but I have not seen the accountability. Having a couple of non-executives on a board does not mean accountability 8.57 pm and responsibility in the same way that direct control by the Government or—as in the case of my local authority Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): The hon. Member example—a council does. for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) mentioned the tragedy of the Morecambe bay cockle pickers and, The idea, once mooted for quangos, that some in his opinion, the disastrous consequences of losing organisations work better independently—so that Ministers the GLA and other organisations in rural England. cannot meddle—was admirable, but I have not seen However, I do not understand Opposition Members accountability. In fact, I have seen the contrary. I would and members of the previous Government. They have like to use regional development agencies as an example spoken a lot about saving money from quangos. The because I have experience of them from my business right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) life. It seemed to me that not only were they not spoke of £500 million, which the shadow Minister, the accountable to, or directly controlled by, the Government— right hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood they had an independent board and claimed some sort (Tessa Jowell), confirmed earlier. On the one hand, of independence—but because their funding was controlled Opposition Members accept that we need to cut because by Governments, they could say to their consumers, money is being lost, but yet almost every organisation who effectively were businesses in the area, “You don’t that is mentioned seems to be a front-line service that it own us. We’re independent of you and funded by the would be a disgrace to remove. I find that a difficult Government.” For the life of me, I cannot see how contradiction. running an RDA as a quango is an excellent way of running an organisation when compared with direct I must tell the House—and in fear of Opposition involvement from the Department for Business, Innovation Members’ mirth—that I have not worked in a quango and Skills or with the local enterprise partnerships. The or experienced them on close terms. However, I do latter are at least community organisations in business know about organisations. Organisations, be they in the terms. I very much support the Bill. private sector, the public sector or the quasi-public sector, have certain things in common. One is that they Mark Lazarowicz: The hon. Gentleman is making all started with perfectly good intentions, but they have some interesting points. However, does he not see the a habit of growing like Topsy, until they get to the stage apparent contradiction between his theory of greater when people think, “Well, how can we possibly do state control and bringing everything into the centre on without them?” That happens a lot in the private sector, the one hand, and the policies of the big society and and it has clearly happened in the public sector. Whether handing power down to people on the other? we are talking about new management in a business or a new Government running the country and the public Richard Harrington: Yes, I think that the hon. Gentleman sector, the feeling is the same: when times get difficult, has made a valid point. Some organisations are much measures have to be taken to reduce the number of better off in the voluntary sector and as part of the big organisations. It is well known in management, and society. It is a question of assessing, as the Cabinet there is management speak for it—management cuts, Office has done, which organisations are suitable for rationalisation and so on. There seems to be consensus which sector. My argument is that the quango is neither on that. one thing nor the other. However, I agree with him; he The shadow Minister said that every Government made a valid intervention. needed to reassess the role of these organisations. In her view, it needed to be done “systematically over time”, 9.4 pm but I am not sure whether that means two years, five years, 10 years or longer. The fact is that a new Government John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I have entered office, carried out a comprehensive review want briefly to make two simple but related points. and decided to proceed in this way predominantly—as Elected Governments—even unelected coalitions—have far as I can see—on the grounds of accountability and the right to determine the administrative arrangements transparency, with the peripheral object of saving money. they consider best suited to implementing their policies. I do not understand her logic in saying that it can be However, there is such a thing as good governance. As done over a lengthy period. These organisations are the Public Administration Committee’s original report growing up all the time. set out, good governance involves undertaking a proper The right hon. Lady seemed to agree that measures review of structures, consulting the organisations and have to be taken to rationalise the number of bodies. individuals involved, clarifying objectives and then having However, I want to move on to the questions of good, clear drafting of the legislation. accountability and transparency, which are the main The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex thrust of the debate. There are arguments about whether (Mr Jenkin) is not in his place, but I think that he hid his organisations are better controlled directly—from within light behind a bushel, because last December’s PAC report 257 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 258 was one of the most hard-hitting reports that I have union is blindingly obvious: conditions that are similar ever seen in this House. It referred to the review process to TUPE are not TUPE. Therefore, a whole range of as “poorly managed”, and said that “no meaningful conditions of service and protections that staff now consultation” had been undertaken, that the criteria and enjoy will be put at risk. I believe that this is an act of tests set for the reform were “not clearly defined” and that bad faith on the part of the Government. The least that the Bill was “badly drafted”, so it is no wonder it received they could do now is add TUPE to the Bill. It was a mauling in the House of Lords. In addition, the included by the last Government in the Apprenticeships, Committee said—I have never seen this sentence in a Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, and by this Select Committee report before—that the Government had Government in the Localism Bill. In that way, staff “failed to recognise the realities of the modern world.” gained some security for their futures. One element of that was the need for thorough consultation, Let me conclude. There is a view in many of those a point that I want to discuss in relation to the staff. bodies that there is near chaos when it comes to what the future will hold for the staff and what the implications Whatever the structures of government, whatever for delivering the service will be. they determine those structures should be and whatever reforms to those structures they want to undertake, any Richard Harrington: Assuming for a moment that the Government will need an essential ingredient: well trained, employment side of the Bill was altered as the hon. professionally competent and motivated staff. However, Gentleman suggests—actually, it will probably not in this Bill the staff are barely mentioned or considered, be—would he then be satisfied with the new arrangements, if at all. I chair the PCS trade union group, which or would he prefer the existing bodies to perform their involves Members of all parties in this House. The PCS functions as they are? has 30,000 members in non-departmental bodies, many thousands of whom are affected by this Bill. Many of John McDonnell: The hon. Gentleman might not those staff are facing compulsory redundancy, forced have heard me say earlier—I might not have made relocation, a deleterious impact on their terms and myself clear enough—that when a new Government are conditions and their pensions, an almost certain increase elected, they are perfectly entitled to introduce the in their work loads and the end of job security—all in a administrative arrangements that they think appropriate situation of absolute uncertainty. The most common for the implementation of their policies. There will be thing that I have heard from members of staff whom I debate in the Chamber about the rights and wrongs of have met in those bodies is that they are completely in those administrative arrangements. As we have heard the dark about their futures. There is a complete lack of today, there are sharp differences of opinion between clarity about what role their organisations and they as Members on either side of the House on the Youth individual professionals will be playing, and they are Justice Board, the coroners service and the Commission worried about the future of the services that they deliver. for Equality and Human Rights. There should, however, be one common feature across Jon Trickett: Will my hon. Friend confirm that all parties, and that relates to the protection of the staff. redundancies are taking place now, before the Government They should not suffer as a result of the changing have even taken these legal powers, which is damaging whims of Governments or of the changing directions of the capacity of those bodies to perform what continue political parties’ policies. They should at least be afforded to be their statutory duties? the opportunity of full consultation and of the legal protections that have been provided in the past, specifically John McDonnell: I can confirm that. Redundancies through TUPE. I very much regret that there is no are taking place, and there is near chaos in some commitment to TUPE in the Bill. The commitment in organisations, not only because of jobs being lost and clause 24 to something similar to TUPE will not give redundancies being forced on people, but in the organisation the staff the security that they need. Any Government, of the services that they deliver. A number of staff are of whatever political hue, should have respect for the worried about the impact that the proposals will have civil servants who serve them. On that basis, I urge the on the users of their services. I refer in particular to Government to think again about this issue. those who manage the independent living fund and the The Cabinet Office Statement of Practice on Staff 300 workers involved on the YouthJustice Board, whose Transfers in the Public Sector—COSOP—principles were jobs are likely to go. Morale is understandably at rock signed up to by the previous Government, and by this bottom in those services, so the important thing is one, and they have been referred to at length in some of consultation. However, I see that consultation with staff our debates. They are now being broken by the Bill. unions is not even listed in the Bill. That has been interpreted by the trade unions as an act Also, there is an agreement stemming from the of bad faith, which is contributing to the present poor last Government—an agreement that I thought this industrial relations climate in the public services. This is Government had signed up to—on TUPE. The Cabinet a critical issue. I welcome the opportunity for the PCS Office statement of protocols adopted by the last parliamentary group to meet Ministers to discuss how Government and inherited by this Government, which I we can amend the legislation in Committee, so that thought this Government had also signed up to, states when it comes back to the House on Report, we can that where TUPE does not apply—for example, in the debate the real principles behind the Bill, rather than transfer of staff into the public sector, which includes being encumbered by this attack on the staff. most of the bodies in this Bill—an explicit reference should be added to the Bill. That is the agreement that 9.12 pm was signed up to, but all that this Bill contains is a Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I rise to reference in clause 24 to transferring people on conditions speak about a couple of the bodies concerned with rural similar to TUPE. The legal advice provided to the communities that were mentioned by my hon. Friend 259 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 260

[Gavin Shuker] it is well beyond its time—but we should bear in mind the important point that the cost of living can be the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), 10% or 20% greater in rural communities than in urban who is no longer in his place. It was interesting to hear areas. If I were a Minister sat on the Government Front Conservative Members expressing disdain for his view Bench and I wanted to get on with implementing my that Labour had made a valuable contribution to rural programmes—something would have happened for that communities during the last Government. That goes to to be the case—I would probably not want a very strong the heart of why I want to talk about these bodies. It is independent voice for rural communities. I think that perhaps inevitable, as Labour Members tend to represent that is a shame, because when we release people to the more urban seats and Conservative Members the become strong advocates of their own communities, it more rural ones, that a certain reputation in that regard serves us all well. is picked up. I fear, however, that this Government will The Rural Advocate appointed by Tony Blair in 2000, run down the huge amount of good will felt towards Lord Cameron of Dillington said: them in rural communities if they ignore the question of the Agricultural Wages Board and the Commission “All too often—in fact, almost always—urban civil servants for Rural Communities. Taken together, those are very ignore or are unaware of difficulties of delivery in the countryside…It would be a tragedy if the countryside were to lose that independent important organisations. voice.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 23 March 2011; Vol. 726, I have some sympathy for the Government’s position c. 767-8.] in wanting to change the constitutional arrangements I think he put it very well. It is easy for us here in of certain bodies, but the Minister himself said earlier Westminster to ignore some of the major problems that that it is difficult to maintain an overview of every rural communities face—in housing, broadband and single body that a Bill of this size deals with. I hope that public transport, for example. How do people in the the Government will be willing to listen on this particular countryside, especially the young, get to work? Those point, because rural communities run the risk of getting are real issues. I believe that the Commission for Rural a very raw deal. Communities continues to have a valuable voice to articulate—independently of Government but to the Richard Harrington: As I understand it, agricultural Government. I also believe that the changes advocated workers are protected by the same rules as everyone in the Bill will not strengthen that independent rural else. The minimum wage, which the Labour Government voice, which, as I said before, has been around for about brought in and which, I must confess, has proved very 100 years. successful, would protect agricultural workers just as it The hon. Member for Watford (Richard Harrington) would any other kind of worker. Can the hon. Gentleman anticipated some of my points. The Agricultural Wages think of any reason why one group of workers should Board is key to ensuring that the additional cost of be treated differently from the others in this regard? living that rural communities face can be met by showing a greater responsibility to those who work in the countryside. Gavin Shuker: The hon. Gentleman has asked a The board was put in place after world war two. That straightforward and honest question. I shall go into this might be used as an argument to get rid of it, but it is in more detail a little later, but one reason would be that really a poor argument for dismissing the present board. agricultural workers are more likely to find themselves It represents a partnership among the industry, the in a changeable labour market. The Agricultural Wages unions, landowners and all interested parties in the Board takes into account six bands for agricultural countryside. Those groups come together and a deal workers, and only 20% of the people who receive funding has to be hammered out on the different wage bands, from their employer that is moderated by the board just as we have to hammer out deals in this place. receive a level around about the minimum wage. Essentially, we could end up bringing the other 80% down to that level in a wage race to the bottom. Let me explain why it Richard Harrington: When the Agricultural Wages is important to take the special character of rural Board came into being in the late 1940s, lots of other communities into account. industries were similarly regulated with their own boards. Most of those have gone—not just as a result of Guto Bebb: I have heard this terminology of a “race Conservative Governments but by general consensus. I to the bottom” used twice by Labour Members. Was do not understand why the Agricultural Wages Board is not the decision of the previous Labour Government to different. allow unfettered immigration from eastern Europe another case of contributing to a race to the bottom when it Gavin Shuker: I appreciate the point, but additional came to wages in the agricultural sector? costs of living and the ability for different groups of workers to be exploited within that industry are relevant. Gavin Shuker: We need a framework in which all I believe that those require us not to weaken the regulations, workers are treated on an equal level. The hon. Gentleman but to keep them in place. makes an astute point—that in a market without any Let me offer two further specific points about the regulation, people will work for the smallest amount of abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board. Without the money. If we had more time, I could discuss the issue at AWB, each individual business will have to negotiate its greater length, but the hon. Gentleman’s point deserves own individual terms and conditions. Far from reducing more scrutiny. red tape for farmers, we will increase it. Many of them The Commission for Rural Communities has been an just want to get on and farm; many just want to run independent advocate since the time of Lloyd George— their business; many are not experts in the area of surely a reason why Conservative Members suggest that human resources or employment law. 261 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 262

Secondly, without the AWB, I believe we will see a coupled with the skills and expertise of the independent dramatic decrease in wages across the industry. As I television sector in Wales, give it the chance of a prosperous said before, only about 20% of those regulated by the future. I am confident that, despite all the concerns that AWB receive round about the minimum wage; there are have been raised about the changes proposed in the Bill, six bands above it. The industry needs a sense of career there is good will in the DCMS and in Government progression and a credible ladder of opportunity in generally, and a real possibility of building a new and order to attract more people into it to strengthen food more accountable S4C that will serve the people of security. The Minister will obviously say that the minimum Wales well. wage remains a safeguard. That is true, but I believe that there will be a race to the bottom without the 9.23 pm AWB. The Bill will restrict the amount that can be charged for accommodation, an area in which people Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ may be exploited. It will also affect agricultural sick Co-op): I want to speak about just one of the Government’s pay, which is very important to manual labourers. proposals: the suggestion that the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee may be abolished. As I I sympathise with the Government’s wish to make am sure the House knows, the consultation on the reforms, which is their right. They will present more committee’s future has not been completed. In fact, it proposals, and they have already made amendments to will not end until 21 July. I hope that the Government the Bill, such as the removal of the clauses relating to will confirm that, although the Minister has said he is forests. However, they risk making a serious impact on minded to abolish the committee, a genuine consultation rural communities that are already suffering. For that process is taking place. I hope it will also be confirmed reason, I ask them not to poison the well from which that if that process reveals a negative view of the they draw much of their support, and to reconsider Government’s proposal, they will reconsider it. their position. I make the case for this committee to be retained because for some time I have been interested in how we 9.20 pm can make public transport as accessible as possible to Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I will be brief, but I people with disabilities. As it happens, one of my want to say a little about S4C. As the House may know, constituents, Alan Rees, is the secretary of the Scottish the Welsh Assembly is responsible for most of the Accessible Transport Alliance. He has campaigned on quangos in Wales, but S4C is one Welsh organisation this issue for many years and has provided me with that will be affected by the Bill. some powerful arguments against the closure of the committee, which I hope the Minister will ensure are I well understand the strength of feeling about the considered by his Department and his colleagues in the Bill. I am possibly the only Member present this evening Department for Transport. Mr Rees has said that the whose office has been vandalised as a result of it. continuation of the committee Members of the Welsh Language Society decided to take direct action because of their fears for the future of “in its present form is vitally important. It is a statutory body made up of disabled people forming a majority. It has been S4C. However, I want to record the fact that, along with behind most of the recent improvements in transport access and the other members of the Welsh Affairs Committee, I mobility for disabled people but there is still much to do. Its loss am fully committed to its future. Our report demonstrated or reduction in status and influence would be a savage blow.” strong cross-party agreement that, notwithstanding concerns It is a cross-border body, although some transport about some elements of the Bill, the funding settlement matters in Scotland are devolved. Issues to do with could offer it a way forward. international travel, travel between Scotland and England, Let me explain why I think the Bill is important. long-distance rail and many aspects of road travel, and Several Members have referred to accountability. One many other issues are still reserved matters. The committee of the problems that we experience with quangos such therefore plays an important role. That is why there is a as S4C is a distinct lack of accountability. After all, they lot of concern about its proposed closure. receive a huge amount of taxpayer funding. Last August, Over the years, the committee has produced many for example, the chief executive of S4C was dismissed reports and recommendations, and, importantly, they without notice. At the time she was earning about have resulted in action. In that regard, I would refer to £160,000 a year: £160,000 a year of taxpayers’ money, the committee’s work on low-floor buses, its advice to and a salary that most people would consider extremely taxi drivers, its promotion of disability awareness training high in a Welsh context. As yet, we have not been told for transport staff and, perhaps most importantly, its why she lost her position. We need to ensure that such efforts to ensure that the consumer view—the view of organisations are accountable to, and respond to, the the disabled traveller—is ascertained and then taken taxpayer. into account by Government at all levels and, indeed, As I have said, I believe that the funding arrangements by transport operators. that the Government are introducing offer S4C a way That serves to highlight two crucial aspects of the forward. The funding is being reduced from £100 million current committee. First, it has a right to be consulted; to about £83 million a year, which, miraculously, was its views must be listened to. Secondly, it is a voice for described by the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan disabled people themselves. As I have said, there is a Jones) as a reduction of 94%. Members may wish to try majority of disabled people on the committee, which to explain how a reduction from £100 million to £83 million gives it authority and credibility, and an understanding equates to a 94% reduction, but I am at a loss. of the issues, and I believe the Government, and specifically I believe that the link between S4C and the BBC the Department for Transport, have drawn great benefit presents S4C with a future. Indeed, the BBC’s experience from that. If the committee is abolished, there is a great and its ability to provide base funding for the channel, risk that the voice of disabled people on transport 263 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 264

[Mark Lazarowicz] time, a death that has been examined by a coroner may have been caused, in part at least, by the Government’s issues will be weakened. I therefore hope that the actions—we can all think of examples where a Government Government will think again about their proposals to failure contributed to the death of a fallen hero in wind-up the committee, and give proper consideration Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and so on. If the coroner has to the findings of the consultation process when that is to report to the Lord Chancellor, would that not completed. immediately raise questions about the independence of If the Government decide to go ahead and abolish the coronial service in investigating the deaths? Deaths the committee, I hope that the alternative arrangements at war are as tragic as any other, and they obviously they set up will not result in there being just an occasional involve people who were fighting for our country. Those meeting with stakeholders, which is one suggestion, or people are entitled to an independent coronial service, arrangements that lead to the employment of highly and I do not believe that the Government’s proposals paid consultants to take on the work of volunteers on give us that independence. the committee. I also hope they give disabled people Powerful points were also made strongly on behalf of and their organisations a genuine voice, as they are rural communities by my hon. Friends the Members for entitled to be consulted on major transport issues and Luton South (Gavin Shuker) and for Birmingham, issues of concern to the disabled traveller. Erdington (Jack Dromey). They discussed not only the I hope that the Government will give those assurances beauty of our rural countryside, but the need for fairness. and, above all, I hope they will confirm that they are The Government are proposing to abolish the Agricultural open to the consultation process producing different Wages Board for England and Wales, and that retrograde recommendations. I trust that there will be a recognition step, again, needs to be debated very carefully in Committee. on both sides of the House that the Government should My right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe take on board these interests and concerns, and that if and Sale East also spoke about youth justice, on the they are going to abolish this committee, they need to basis of his great experience, and the House listened come up with a genuine and acceptable alternative. carefully to the point he made. What was striking about the debate was the fact that few Government Members were wholly in favour of the 9.28 pm Bill and that they did not make the case for the Bill in Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): This has been an the terms used by the Minister for the Cabinet Office. interesting debate, but at certain times Members walking He made a case on the basis of democratic accountability—I into the Chamber might have wondered whether they shall address that in a moment—but his right hon. and had accidentally walked into a discussion on Welsh hon. Friends largely chose to make an argument on affairs, because so much of the debate focused on financial grounds. They said that we should simply be S4C—a mystery to me as an MP representing a Yorkshire taking an axe and making financial cuts to the service, constituency until I was allocated to this Bill. I can irrespective of whether the service being provided is assure the House that by the time we reach Committee good or bad. For example, the hon. Member for City of stage, I will be as expert as everybody else. However, the Chester (Stephen Mosley) referred to the financial real reason for the contributions from so many Welsh imperative to cut services. We accept that there is a Members might be a certain boundary review that will degree of financial imperative, particularly in relation be taking place in Wales in due course, but perhaps that to waste, where that is identified. However, I do not is idle speculation. believe that the argument made by the hon. Member for The sub-debate about S4C was ably led by my hon. Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) that we should abolish Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones). any quango where even a small amount of waste has Other contributions were made by the hon. Members been abolished necessarily provides the correct answer— for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), for Montgomeryshire notably, the Minister for the Cabinet Office did not (Glyn Davies), for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), make that case. for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) The hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth and for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). They all made interesting Truss) gave an extraordinary motive for cutting quangos, speeches, although it seemed to me that some of the basing her argument on inequality of pay. Those of us points made by Government Members were hardly on the left, who have long argued for greater equality, supportive of the Government’s position on S4C. The welcome her as a recruit, but her case was that we Opposition can assure the House that this matter will should abolish quangos on the basis of the size of the be explored in great detail in Committee. chief executive’s salary, and that is a bizarre argument. Many other matters were raised, often with great The hon. Member for Watford (Richard Harrington) authority, including the Government proposal to transform was the star of the show. He began his speech by saying the chief coroner post. Very significant contributions that he had no experience whatsoever of any quango, were made on that matter by my right hon. Friend the ever. He felt that that gave him the basis for making a Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), my speech to say that quangos should immediately be reformed, hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), abolished and so on. my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and The Government rested their case on the need for Sale East (Paul Goggins) and my hon. Friend the Member greater democratic accountability, and we agree that the for North Durham (Mr Jones). There is a significant quango state should be tackled on those grounds. However, problem with the Government’s proposals, which suggest they would be well advised to listen carefully to the case that the coronial service, in part at least, should be made by the hon. Member for Harwich and North made responsible to the Lord Chancellor, who, as we Essex (Mr Jenkin), who chairs the Public Administration know, is a member of the Government. From time to Committee. He pointed out that in a modern society 265 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 266 accountability takes many forms. I have just discussed as the savings that they will make. Our research, for the coronial service and it may be that rather than the example, demonstrated that although the Government coroners being made accountable to the Lord Chancellor, claimed that they would save £18 million from the as the Government would have it, they should be Department for Work and Pensions, they will save less accountable to the relatives of the dead. In that sense, I than £500,000. agree entirely with the point made by the Public Finally, the proposals will have a human cost both to Administration Committee. the millions of people who receive services from the Considering that it dealt with such important bodies, quangos and to thousands of employees, to whom my the process the Government entered into was incredibly hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington rushed. There was little or no consultation in advance referred. Let me ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet with the interested parties, with the bodies themselves Office, a straightforward question, which I would like or even with Parliament. The reform of these bodies him to answer in his reply. What will happen to those through proper legislative processes is clearly one thing whose jobs may be transferred into the private sector, that the Government are entitled to do, but instead, as the voluntary sector and elsewhere in the public service? we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes What will happen to their rights? Does he envisage that and Harlington (John McDonnell), they are already their rights under TUPE will be properly protected, as proceeding effectively to abolish or at least to weaken they ought to be? through underhand administrative methods those very Hon. Members’ contributions today have revealed organisations that the Bill is intended to reform, even that the Government have not considered staff, have not before it has gone through Parliament. The Equality listened to the users of services, have not produced and Human Rights Commission, for example, has already proper costings and certainly have not listened to the had its budget cut by 68%, yet it still exists in law. The millions of vulnerable people who will be affected by staff numbers have been cut by 66%. Only one in three the Government’s actions if this Bill is passed. The staff remain in the EHRC yet it still has statutory duties Government do not realise that when they are taking imposed on it by Parliament until this Bill becomes law. decisions, they need to see the big picture—on which we That is no way for a Government to proceed. It completely can agree: that quangos should be reduced—but equally ignores the need for parliamentary assent and is once the detail. Government is about making decisions but it again reflective of a Government who are unwilling to is also about listening and the Government simply do listen or consult. not have the humility to listen, the patience to debate or the ability to implement the detail properly. We will be What we have here is a Government who are simply voting for the reasoned amendment and fighting the not listening, so much so that that they are not allowing Bill line by line in Committee, and we reserve the right witnesses to appear before the Public Bill Committee as to vote against the Bill on Third Reading unless there part of the Bill’s scrutiny. We were told that this would are substantial improvements to it. be a listening Government. Why then will they not allow witnesses to appear before the Public Bill Committee when the Bill goes upstairs? The Government do not 9.40 pm want to hear the voices of the Royal British Legion, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick who will defend the rights of fallen heroes to a proper Hurd): This has been a short debate on a Bill that my inquest. They do not want to hear the voices of low hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex paid workers in the agricultural industry who will be (Mr Jenkin) rightly described as being very significant. affected by the changes to the Agricultural Wages Board. It is significant in its potential impact on a large number They will not allow the voices of witnesses from the of organisations, many of which perform significant disabled community, mentioned by my hon. Friend the functions and employ a large number of people. My Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark fellow Hillingdon MP, the hon. Member for Hayes and Lazarowicz), to be heard on the EHRC or the Disabled Harlington (John McDonnell), was quite right to remind Persons Transport Advisory Committee, which is to be the House of the impact of the changes on human abolished. We will therefore oppose what we regard as a beings. Let me reassure him that I am extremely happy gross misuse of Government authority in seeking to to meet him and the PCS group to clarify any confusion prevent witnesses appearing before the Committee. I that might exist in relation to TUPE. I give that undertaking therefore urge the House to reject the programme motion, in good faith. which does that. The debate was interesting in that it launched the On top of all those things, the Bill fundamentally Labour party’s campaign to “Back the Apple”—this alters ministerial powers to control quangos. It will from the party that introduced the cider tax! The irony concentrate far more authority in the hands of the has been lost on them. More seriously, it is clear that relevant Ministers, who could merge bodies, transfer there are still profound concerns about some of the bodies or even abolish them without proper reference to proposals on the table and that there is more need than Parliament and without listening to witness statements. ever for Ministers’ continued engagement regarding the The costings on which the Bill relies are also riddled Bill during its progress through Committee, should it with incompetence. The Minister for the Cabinet Office get its Second Reading, and through the consultation has made outlandish claims in The Sun newspaper that processes that will have to flow in anticipation of the are totally unfounded. We have tabled freedom of orders that will in turn flow from the Bill. Many arguments information requests and parliamentary questions that will be made, won and lost in that process. That is quite show that rather than the £30 billion he claimed, the clear from the debate. actual savings will be a fraction of that: £2.6 billion at In the time available I will try to address some of the most. When we considered individual Departments, we specific concerns that have been raised, but it is important found the Government’s claim was often twice as high to register that no one in the debate has, as far as I could 267 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 268

[Mr Nick Hurd] North East, and for Wythenshawe and Sale East, because they had the benefit of drawing on direct ministerial tell, argued for the status quo. The case for reform experience, some of which was clearly very powerful appears to have been won, although, having listened to and difficult. Opposition Front Benchers I am not entirely convinced. The truth is that when they were in power they were a Mr Kevan Jones: What about me? lot better at moving quangos around than at abolishing them. Frankly, at the end of the Opposition spokesman’s Mr Hurd: The hon. Gentleman was not bad, either. remarks, I was no clearer about what on earth they There are clearly arguments to be made, and won or would do if they were in power. There continues to be a lost. The Government clearly have to listen very hard, complete fog about that. It is all very well talking about but the point that I would make to Members who have the case for reform, but sometimes one has to get up understandable concerns about the proposal is that and do something. there is no argument about the need for reform. As the The case for reform was made extremely powerfully hon. Member for Hartlepool said, we all recognise that by my hon. Friends the Members for South West Norfolk a much better service is required for families. There is a (Elizabeth Truss), for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) and problem around variation in quality; he made that for Watford (Richard Harrington). The case was made point well. Nor is there any argument about the need particularly eloquently by my hon. Friend the Member for the functions of the chief coroner; the proposal is for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley), who talked about that they be transferred, not abolished. The question is: the need to shine a light of accountability and transparency, can we have reform without the person—or without the with which I entirely agreed. My observation from my person right now, because the Government are retaining constituency is that people are deeply frustrated by how some flexibility on that point? The concern is about complex and expensive government has become. They whether the reforms can be delivered without incurring would like it to be simplified and for it to be easier to what, on the face of it, are significant set-up and find out who is in charge. They would like us to bear running costs—costs that were effectively ratified by the down with much greater discipline on waste and cost previous Government, because they commissioned the inflation, not least on salary inflation. That point was impact assessment. well made by my hon. Friend the hon. Member for South West Norfolk. Mr Jones: The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General told us when he opened the debate Given the cluttered and confused landscape that is that the reason behind the decision on the chief coroner’s quangoland, it would have been quite irresponsible for office was money.Is the Parliamentary Secretary comfortable a new Government not to have embarked on a review of going against one of the main recommendations made public bodies. We believe very strongly that by substantially by Dame Janet Smith in the Shipman report—that the reducing the number of bodies, returning functions to coroner’s office be independent of Government? central Government where appropriate, and establishing a legislative framework for the outcomes of future reviews, the Bill takes a major step towards a simpler, Mr Hurd: Cost is a significant factor in the circumstances more accountable approach to Government. The Bill that we face, and we should not underestimate its will support the delivery of administrative savings from importance as a consideration for the Ministry of Justice. public bodies, as part of the Government’s commitment It is committed to reform; the question is: how can to delivering the effective, value-for-money systems that those reforms be delivered in the most cost-effective taxpayers rightly expect. Those principles should enjoy way? It is clear, as I said, that the arguments will have to widespread support across the House, and I am very be made through the processes that lie before us. disappointed by the position of the Opposition in that respect. Mr Ainsworth: There are processes that are to be performed, and if consistency is to be applied, there will There was consensus across the House that the Bill be costs. Either the processes will be done by an independent had been improved by the deliberations in the other person who is part of the coronial system or, under the place; I am happy to confirm that that is our view, too. monstrous proposal from the Government, somehow There were questions, not least from my hon. Friends Ministers will do them under a coronial system. It the Members for Harwich and North Essex, for City of cannot be done that way. Chester, and for Esher and Walton, about the triennial review, which is an important part of the new process Mr Hurd: It is obviously the responsibility of the that we are setting up. I assure them all that further Government to consider all the costs, but the right hon. detail will be forthcoming on how that review will work. Gentleman is ignoring the role of the Lord Chief Justice. There was very little controversy, as far as I could tell, I come back to the point that the Government recognise, about the structure of the Bill, now that it has passed as we all do, the need for reform; the question is how through the other place. Where there were concerns, those reforms can be delivered in the most cost-effective they tended to focus explicitly on the ideas for particular way. That is the debate that will roll through Committee bodies. I should like to focus on those that are clearly and beyond. Clearly, feelings run high on the issue in more controversial. I start with the office of chief coroner. this House and the other place. We heard powerful speeches from the right hon. Members for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), and for Mr Jenkin: My hon. Friend is making an emollient Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), and from and helpful speech, but the real question is not how the hon. Members for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), and for these issues will be dealt with during the passage of the North Durham (Mr Jones). I pay particular tribute to Bill, but how they will be properly debated and adjudicated the speeches of the right hon. Members for Coventry on by Parliament after the Bill is on the statute book. 269 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 270

Will he give the House a general undertaking that these described in the written ministerial statement—it was contentious issues concerning bodies that were established reassuring that many colleagues took great comfort by primary legislation will be the subject of proper and from the statement—makes it clear that S4C will be reasonable consultation and debate when the orders funded for the long term to deliver its vital statutory come before Parliament, and that there will be an functions. Everything we are proposing is about how we opportunity for Parliament to exercise the influence it protect S4C, not undermine it. would have exercised had we been confronted with Let me touch on the Agricultural Wages Board. The primary legislation? hon. Members for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) and for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) were eloquent Mr Hurd: My hon. Friend’s question goes to the on the subject. The Agricultural Wages Board was set heart of the debate about how the Bill is structured. He up to represent agricultural workers and ensure that understands that if this enabling Bill is enacted, it will they are paid appropriately. That is an example of a be the responsibility of Ministers to come to this place body that is no longer needed, as pay for all workers is with orders, having consulted where that remains protected by the national minimum wage, so there is no appropriate, and make their case, with appropriate longer a need for separate representation for agricultural safeguards in terms of scrutiny and the capacity of the workers, a point made by my hon. Friend the Member House to require the enhanced affirmative procedure. for Watford (Richard Harrington). There was no serious discussion of this during the debate, but, with reference to the safeguarding procedures, Andrew George: I lead on DEFRA matters for the I think we are in a much better place than when we Liberal Democrats and hope that the Minister understands started and when his Committee examined the Bill. that I oppose the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board. Rural workers are exceptionally isolated and in John McDonnell: On the point about process, because an exceptional position that I think justifies exceptional some aspects of the Bill are more contentious than protections. others and the Government have moved from the affirmative procedure to the enhanced affirmative procedure, there Mr Hurd: I think that the House understands, as the may well be the opportunity on some issues to move to Government certainly do, that the hon. Gentleman is the super-affirmative procedure, which allows room for opposed to the abolition, but I do not think that that further amendment. changes our view that separate representation for Mr Hurd: That has been considered and rejected. The agricultural workers is no longer needed. enhanced affirmative procedure is considered to be adequate and proportionate. That seemed to be accepted Elizabeth Truss: Farmers in my constituency certainly by the other place. want less regulation, rather than more, which will enable them to be more productive and export more crops, and I shall move on in order to give proper space for the surely the minimum wage is effective cover for protecting other most contentious issue, which concerns S4C. Again, workers. We need to ensure greater exports from Britain, we heard powerful speeches from the hon. Members for which we will not achieve through further regulation. Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones), who is in her place, for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), and for Carmarthen East Mr Hurd: My hon. Friend is right that the abolition and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), and from my hon. of the Agricultural Wages Board is not about driving Friends the Members for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun down wages and conditions for agricultural workers, Cairns), for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) and for but about removing regulatory burdens on farm businesses Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). My hon. Friend the Member and allowing them to focus on the business of farming. for Montgomeryshire expressed the deep passions that the proposal has aroused. We heard from my hon. Jack Dromey: Will the Minister give way? Friend the Member for Aberconwy that his office had been vandalised or attacked as a response to the Bill. Mr Hurd: I will not, with great respect, because I have My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire given way a great deal and have limited time in which to described S4C as the cultural backbone of Wales—a draw my remarks to a close. powerful phrase. The debate is about how we sustain S4C as an independent service that retains its own I would like to return to the core issue of why we brand identity. believe the Bill is needed and deserves a Second Reading: the benefits it will deliver for good government in this Glyn Davies: The one issue that still concerns us is the country. My right hon. Friend the Minister for the arrangements for future governance. We seek an assurance Cabinet Office announced the results of a radical review that there will be genuine consultation and opportunity programme, as a result of which we proposed that for the people of Wales to have an input into that almost 500 bodies should be reformed, and in many consultation. We are looking to the Minister to give us a instances those reforms are already complete or in commitment on that. progress. However, a large number of those bodies have a statutory basis, so legislation is required to turn the Mr Hurd: I am happy to give my hon. Friend the Government’s proposals into reality. In some cases reassurance that the Department is extremely sensitive departmental Bills provide an appropriate vehicle for to concerns. As he knows, the funding settlement reduces the changes, but where that is not the case the Public S4C’s funding by the same amount as the DCMS’s, at Bodies Bill represents a sensible legislative solution. It about 25% over the comprehensive spending review gives the Government the necessary powers to take period. We consider that fair. I do not think there is an forward these much-needed reforms without Departments argument about the unsustainability of the current having to wait for primary legislation, preventing funding arrangements for S4C. The proposed amendment unnecessary delay where the case for change is clear. 271 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 272

[Mr Hurd] Blomfield, Paul Green, Kate Blunkett, rh Mr David Griffith, Nia The Bill achieves that by giving Ministers a series of Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gwynne, Andrew powers, outlined in clauses 1 to 5, to make changes to Brennan, Kevin Hain, rh Mr Peter public bodies through secondary legislation, subject to Brown, Lyn Hamilton, Mr David a number of safeguards, the completion of a consultation Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Fabian Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr David process and the approval of Parliament. I emphasise Buck, Ms Karen Harman, rh Ms Harriet that those powers are strictly limited in scope. The Byrne, rh Mr Liam Havard, Mr Dai powers to make orders apply only to the bodies and Campbell, Mr Alan Healey, rh John offices listed in the corresponding schedule to the Bill, Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hendrick, Mark to which bodies can be added only through primary Caton, Martin Hepburn, Mr Stephen legislation, meaning that Parliament will remain the Chapman, Mrs Jenny Heyes, David ultimate arbiter over when the use of those powers is Clark, Katy Hillier, Meg appropriate. Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hilling, Julie Following a review by the other place, important Clwyd, rh Ann Hodgson, Mrs Sharon changes have been made to the Bill. Specifically, we Coaker, Vernon Hoey, Kate Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kelvin have arrived at mechanisms to include a number of Connarty, Michael Howarth, rh Mr George proportionate restrictions on the use of the powers set Cooper, Rosie Hunt, Tristram out in the Bill. On independence, we have introduced Corbyn, Jeremy Irranca-Davies, Huw provision in clause 7 to prevent the Bill from being used Crausby, Mr David James, Mrs Siân C. in a way that prevents important public functions, such Creagh, Mary Jamieson, Cathy as those of a judicial nature, from being amended in a Creasy, Stella Jarvis, Dan way that stops them being exercised independently of Cruddas, Jon Johnson, rh Alan Ministers. On consultation, we have required that Ministers Cryer, John Johnson, Diana consult on their proposals before laying a draft order Cunningham, Alex Jones, Graham before Parliament. The Bill now provides the option of Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen selecting an enhanced scrutiny procedure for any draft Cunningham, Tony Jones, Mr Kevan order, giving Parliament and its Committees 60 days to Curran, Margaret Jones, Susan Elan consider a proposal and make representations to Ministers. Dakin, Nic Jowell, rh Tessa Danczuk, Simon Joyce, Eric Clause 12 sunsets the contents of the schedules after Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald five years. David, Mr Wayne Keeley, Barbara In summary, the reforms we have proposed and that Davidson, Mr Ian Kendall, Liz have been debated again today will produce a leaner Davies, Geraint Khan, rh Sadiq and more effective system of public bodies centred on De Piero, Gloria Lammy, rh Mr David the principle of ministerial accountability. We have Denham, rh Mr John Lavery, Ian listened intently to the comments and concerns expressed Dobbin, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark during the debate and recognise that there are areas Docherty, Thomas Leslie, Chris where the Government can helpfully produce further Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lloyd, Tony clarity and assurance, and the Deputy Leader of the Doran, Mr Frank Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Dowd, Jim Long, Naomi House and I look forward to continuing to engage with Doyle, Gemma Love, Mr Andrew hon. Members in Committee and elsewhere. Dromey, Jack Lucas, Caroline However, I reiterate my hope that the House can Dugher, Michael Lucas, Ian come together in support of the belief that ministerial Durkan, Mark Mactaggart, Fiona accountability for public functions and the use of public Eagle, Ms Angela Mahmood, Shabana money should be at the heart of how we conduct Eagle, Maria Mann, John ourselves. The Government believe that the proposals Edwards, Jonathan Marsden, Mr Gordon embodied in the Bill and in our plans for a regular Efford, Clive McCabe, Steve comprehensive review of all public bodies will set a new Elliott, Julie McCann, Mr Michael Ellman, Mrs Louise McCarthy, Kerry standard for the management and review of public Engel, Natascha McDonnell, Dr Alasdair bodies, and on that basis I commend the Bill to the Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John House. Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Question put, That the amendment be made. Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Alison Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Jim The House divided: Ayes 231, Noes 307. Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Division No. 321] [9.59 pm Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Flint, rh Caroline McKenzie, Mr Iain AYES Flynn, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Abbott, Ms Diane Balls, rh Ed Fovargue, Yvonne Meacher, rh Mr Michael Abrahams, Debbie Banks, Gordon Francis, Dr Hywel Meale, Sir Alan Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Barron, rh Mr Kevin Gapes, Mike Mearns, Ian Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Beckett, rh Margaret Gardiner, Barry Michael, rh Alun Alexander, Heidi Begg, Dame Anne Gilmore, Sheila Miliband, rh David Ali, Rushanara Benn, rh Hilary Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Allen, Mr Graham Berger, Luciana Godsiff, Mr Roger Mitchell, Austin Ashworth, Jon Blackman-Woods, Roberta Goggins, rh Paul Moon, Mrs Madeleine Bailey, Mr Adrian Blears, rh Hazel Goodman, Helen Morden, Jessica Bain, Mr William Blenkinsop, Tom Greatrex, Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) 273 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 274

Morris, Grahame M. Skinner, Mr Dennis de Bois, Nick Huppert, Dr Julian (Easington) Slaughter, Mr Andy Dinenage, Caroline Hurd, Mr Nick Mudie, Mr George Smith, rh Mr Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jackson, Mr Stewart Munn, Meg Smith, Nick Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen James, Margot Murphy, rh Mr Jim Smith, Owen Doyle-Price, Jackie Javid, Sajid Murphy, rh Paul Spellar, rh Mr John Drax, Richard Jenkin, Mr Bernard Murray, Ian Stringer, Graham Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Gareth Nandy, Lisa Stuart, Ms Gisela Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Nash, Pamela Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Tami, Mark Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Onwurah, Chi Thomas, Mr Gareth Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Osborne, Sandra Timms, rh Stephen Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Owen, Albert Trickett, Jon Elphicke, Charlie Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pearce, Teresa Turner, Karl Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Perkins, Toby Twigg, Derek Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Phillipson, Bridget Umunna, Mr Chuka Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Pound, Stephen Vaz, rh Keith Evennett, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Vaz, Valerie Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Reed, Mr Jamie Walley, Joan Featherstone, Lynne Latham, Pauline Reeves, Rachel Watson, Mr Tom Field, Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Reynolds, Emma Watts, Mr Dave Foster, rh Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Reynolds, Jonathan Whitehead, Dr Alan Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Dr Phillip Riordan, Mrs Linda Wicks, rh Malcolm Francois, rh Mr Mark Leech, Mr John Ritchie, Ms Margaret Williams, Hywel Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Williamson, Chris Fullbrook, Lorraine Leigh, Mr Edward Rotheram, Steve Wilson, Phil Gale, Mr Roger Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Roy, Mr Frank Winnick, Mr David Garnier, Mr Edward Lewis, Brandon Roy, Lindsay Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Garnier, Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Ruane, Chris Wood, Mike Gauke, Mr David Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian George, Andrew Lidington, rh Mr David Ruddock, rh Joan Woodcock, John Sarwar, Anas Gibb, Mr Nick Lilley, rh Mr Peter Wright, David Seabeck, Alison Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lord, Jonathan Wright, Mr Iain Sharma, Mr Virendra Glen, John Loughton, Tim Sheerman, Mr Barry Tellers for the Ayes: Goodwill, Mr Robert Luff, Peter Sheridan, Jim Lilian Greenwood and Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Shuker, Gavin Gregg McClymont Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Gray, Mr James Maude, rh Mr Francis NOES Grayling, rh Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Adams, Nigel Bruce, Fiona Greening, Justine McCartney, Karl Afriyie, Adam Bruce, rh Malcolm Griffiths, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Aldous, Peter Buckland, Mr Robert Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Alexander, rh Danny Burley, Mr Aidan Hague, rh Mr William McVey, Esther Amess, Mr David Burns, Conor Halfon, Robert Mensch, Louise Andrew, Stuart Burns, rh Mr Simon Hames, Duncan Menzies, Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burrowes, Mr David Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mercer, Patrick Bacon, Mr Richard Burstow, Paul Hammond, Stephen Metcalfe, Stephen Baker, Steve Burt, Lorely Hancock, Matthew Miller, Maria Baldry, Tony Byles, Dan Hancock, Mr Mike Mills, Nigel Baldwin, Harriett Cairns, Alun Hands, Greg Milton, Anne Barclay, Stephen Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Baron, Mr John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harrington, Richard Mordaunt, Penny Barwell, Gavin Carmichael, Neil Harris, Rebecca Morgan, Nicky Bebb, Guto Carswell, Mr Douglas Hart, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Beith, rh Sir Alan Chishti, Rehman Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, David Beresford, Sir Paul Chope, Mr Christopher Heald, Oliver Morris, James Bingham, Andrew Clappison, Mr James Heath, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Binley, Mr Brian Clark, rh Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris Mulholland, Greg Birtwistle, Gordon Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hemming, John Mundell, rh David Blackman, Bob Coffey, Dr Thérèse Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Blackwood, Nicola Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Murray, Sheryll Blunt, Mr Crispin Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Boles, Nick Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Bone, Mr Peter Crabb, Stephen Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Bradley, Karen Crockart, Mike Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Brady, Mr Graham Crouch, Tracey Holloway, Mr Adam Nokes, Caroline Brake, Tom Davey, Mr Edward Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Bray, Angie Davies, David T. C. Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Brazier, Mr Julian (Monmouth) Howarth, Mr Gerald O’Brien, Mr Stephen Brine, Mr Steve Davies, Glyn Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Brokenshire, James Davies, Philip Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Brooke, Annette Davis, rh Mr David Hunter, Mark Ottaway, Richard 275 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 276

Paice, rh Mr James Stewart, Iain 3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the Parish, Neil Stewart, Rory first day on which it meets. Patel, Priti Streeter, Mr Gary Consideration and Third Reading Pawsey, Mark Stride, Mel 4. Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously Penning, Mike Stuart, Mr Graham concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the Penrose, John Stunell, Andrew moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings Percy, Andrew Sturdy, Julian are commenced. Perry, Claire Swales, Ian 5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously Phillips, Stephen Swayne, Mr Desmond concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swinson, Jo on that day. Pincher, Christopher Syms, Mr Robert Poulter, Dr Daniel Thurso, John 6. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall Prisk, Mr Mark Timpson, Mr Edward not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading. Pugh, John Tomlinson, Justin Other proceedings Raab, Mr Dominic Tredinnick, David 7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings Reckless, Mark Truss, Elizabeth on consideration of any message from the Lords) may be Redwood, rh Mr John Turner, Mr Andrew programmed.—(Stephen Crabb.) Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tyrie, Mr Andrew The House divided: Ayes 304, Noes 229. Reevell, Simon Uppal, Paul Reid, Mr Alan Vara, Mr Shailesh Division No. 322] [10.15 pm Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Vickers, Martin Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa AYES Robertson, Hugh Walker, Mr Charles Adams, Nigel Chope, Mr Christopher Robertson, Mr Laurence Walker, Mr Robin Afriyie, Adam Clappison, Mr James Rogerson, Dan Wallace, Mr Ben Aldous, Peter Clark, rh Greg Rosindell, Andrew Walter, Mr Robert Alexander, rh Danny Coffey, Dr Thérèse Rudd, Amber Ward, Mr David Amess, Mr David Collins, Damian Ruffley, Mr David Watkinson, Angela Andrew, Stuart Colvile, Oliver Russell, Bob Weatherley, Mike Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Cox, Mr Geoffrey Rutley, David Webb, Steve Bacon, Mr Richard Crockart, Mike Sanders, Mr Adrian Wharton, James Baker, Steve Crouch, Tracey Sandys, Laura Wheeler, Heather Baldry, Tony Davey, Mr Edward Scott, Mr Lee White, Chris Baldwin, Harriett Davies, David T. C. Shapps, rh Grant Whittaker, Craig Barclay, Stephen (Monmouth) Sharma, Alok Whittingdale, Mr John Baron, Mr John Davies, Glyn Shelbrooke, Alec Wiggin, Bill Barwell, Gavin Davies, Philip Simmonds, Mark Williams, Mr Mark Bebb, Guto de Bois, Nick Simpson, Mr Keith Williams, Roger Beith, rh Sir Alan Dinenage, Caroline Skidmore, Chris Williams, Stephen Benyon, Richard Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Smith, Miss Chloe Williamson, Gavin Beresford, Sir Paul Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Smith, Henry Willott, Jenny Bingham, Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Smith, Julian Wilson, Mr Rob Binley, Mr Brian Drax, Richard Smith, Sir Robert Wollaston, Dr Sarah Birtwistle, Gordon Duddridge, James Soames, Nicholas Wright, Jeremy Blackman, Bob Duncan, rh Mr Alan Soubry, Anna Wright, Simon Blackwood, Nicola Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Young, rh Sir George Blunt, Mr Crispin Dunne, Mr Philip Spencer, Mr Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Boles, Nick Ellis, Michael Stanley, rh Sir John Bone, Mr Peter Ellison, Jane Stephenson, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: Bradley, Karen Ellwood, Mr Tobias Stevenson, John James Duddridge and Brady, Mr Graham Elphicke, Charlie Stewart, Bob Norman Lamb Brake, Tom Eustice, George Bray, Angie Evans, Graham Question accordingly negatived. Brazier, Mr Julian Evans, Jonathan Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 62(2)), Brine, Mr Steve Evennett, Mr David Brokenshire, James Fabricant, Michael That the Bill be now read a Second Time. Brooke, Annette Fallon, Michael Question agreed to. Bruce, Fiona Featherstone, Lynne Bill accordingly read a Second time. Bruce, rh Malcolm Field, Mr Mark Buckland, Mr Robert Foster, rh Mr Don Burley, Mr Aidan Fox,rhDrLiam PUBLIC BODIES BILL [LORDS] (PROGRAMME) Burns, Conor Francois, rh Mr Mark Motion made, and Question put forthwith, (Standing Burns, rh Mr Simon Freeman, George Order No. 83A(7)), Burrowes, Mr David Fullbrook, Lorraine Burstow, Paul Gale, Mr Roger That the following provisions shall apply to the Public Bodies Burt, Lorely Garnier, Mr Edward Bill [Lords]: Byles, Dan Garnier, Mark Committal Cairns, Alun Gauke, Mr David 1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee. Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gibb, Mr Nick Proceedings in Public Bill Committee Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl 2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not Carmichael, Neil Glen, John previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday Carswell, Mr Douglas Goodwill, Mr Robert 13 October 2011. Chishti, Rehman Graham, Richard 277 Public Bodies Bill [Lords]12 JULY 2011 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 278

Grant, Mrs Helen Maude, rh Mr Francis Simmonds, Mark Uppal, Paul Gray, Mr James May, rh Mrs Theresa Simpson, Mr Keith Vara, Mr Shailesh Grayling, rh Chris Maynard, Paul Skidmore, Chris Vickers, Martin Green, Damian McCartney, Karl Smith, Miss Chloe Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Greening, Justine McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry Walker, Mr Charles Griffiths, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Smith, Julian Walker, Mr Robin Gyimah, Mr Sam McVey, Esther Smith, Sir Robert Wallace, Mr Ben Hague, rh Mr William Mensch, Louise Soames, Nicholas Walter, Mr Robert Halfon, Robert Menzies, Mark Soubry, Anna Ward, Mr David Hames, Duncan Mercer, Patrick Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Watkinson, Angela Hammond, rh Mr Philip Metcalfe, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Weatherley, Mike Hammond, Stephen Miller, Maria Stephenson, Andrew Webb, Steve Hancock, Matthew Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Wharton, James Hancock, Mr Mike Milton, Anne Stewart, Bob Wheeler, Heather Hands, Greg Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Iain White, Chris Harper, Mr Mark Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Rory Whittaker, Craig Harrington, Richard Morgan, Nicky Streeter, Mr Gary Whittingdale, Mr John Harris, Rebecca Morris, Anne Marie Stride, Mel Wiggin, Bill Hart, Simon Morris, David Stuart, Mr Graham Williams, Mr Mark Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, James Stunell, Andrew Williams, Roger Heald, Oliver Mosley, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Williams, Stephen Heath, Mr David Mulholland, Greg Swales, Ian Williamson, Gavin Heaton-Harris, Chris Mundell, rh David Swayne, Mr Desmond Willott, Jenny Hemming, John Munt, Tessa Swinson, Jo Wilson, Mr Rob Henderson, Gordon Murray, Sheryll Syms, Mr Robert Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hendry, Charles Murrison, Dr Andrew Thurso, John Wright, Jeremy Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Timpson, Mr Edward Wright, Simon Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Tomlinson, Justin Young, rh Sir George Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Tredinnick, David Zahawi, Nadhim Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline Truss, Elizabeth Tellers for the Ayes: Holloway, Mr Adam Norman, Jesse Turner, Mr Andrew Stephen Crabb and Hopkins, Kris Nuttall, Mr David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Norman Lamb Horwood, Martin O’Brien, Mr Stephen Howarth, Mr Gerald Offord, Mr Matthew Howell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric NOES Hughes, rh Simon Ottaway, Richard Abbott, Ms Diane Coffey, Ann Hunter, Mark Paice, rh Mr James Abrahams, Debbie Connarty, Michael Huppert, Dr Julian Parish, Neil Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cooper, Rosie Hurd, Mr Nick Patel, Priti Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Corbyn, Jeremy Jackson, Mr Stewart Pawsey, Mark Alexander, Heidi Crausby, Mr David James, Margot Penning, Mike Ali, Rushanara Creagh, Mary Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Allen, Mr Graham Creasy, Stella Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew Ashworth, Jon Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Bailey, Mr Adrian Cryer, John Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Tony Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Barron, rh Mr Kevin Curran, Margaret Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Beckett, rh Margaret Dakin, Nic Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pugh, John Begg, Dame Anne Danczuk, Simon Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Benn, rh Hilary Darling, rh Mr Alistair Knight, rh Mr Greg Reckless, Mark Berger, Luciana David, Mr Wayne Kwarteng, Kwasi Redwood, rh Mr John Blackman-Woods, Roberta Davidson, Mr Ian Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rees-Mogg, Jacob Blears, rh Hazel Davies, Geraint Lancaster, Mark Reevell, Simon Blenkinsop, Tom De Piero, Gloria Latham, Pauline Reid, Mr Alan Blomfield, Paul Denham, rh Mr John Leadsom, Andrea Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Blunkett, rh Mr David Dobbin, Jim Lee, Dr Phillip Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Docherty, Thomas Leech, Mr John Robertson, Hugh Brennan, Kevin Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence Brown, Lyn Doran, Mr Frank Leigh, Mr Edward Rogerson, Dan Brown, Mr Russell Dowd, Jim Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Bryant, Chris Doyle, Gemma Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Buck, Ms Karen Dromey, Jack Lewis, Dr Julian Ruffley, Mr David Byrne, rh Mr Liam Dugher, Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Bob Campbell, Mr Alan Durkan, Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Rutley, David Campbell, Mr Ronnie Eagle, Ms Angela Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Caton, Martin Eagle, Maria Lord, Jonathan Sandys, Laura Chapman, Mrs Jenny Edwards, Jonathan Loughton, Tim Scott, Mr Lee Clark, Katy Efford, Clive Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant Clarke, rh Mr Tom Elliott, Julie Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Clwyd, rh Ann Ellman, Mrs Louise Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec Coaker, Vernon Engel, Natascha 279 Public Bodies Bill [Lords] 12 JULY 2011 280

Esterson, Bill McGovern, Alison Watts, Mr Dave Wood, Mike Evans, Chris McGovern, Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Woodcock, John Farrelly, Paul McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Wicks, rh Malcolm Wright, David Field, rh Mr Frank McKechin, Ann Williams, Hywel Wright, Mr Iain Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Williamson, Chris Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Wilson, Phil Tellers for the Noes: Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael Winnick, Mr David Lilian Greenwood and Flynn, Paul Meale, Sir Alan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Gregg McClymont Fovargue, Yvonne Mearns, Ian Francis, Dr Hywel Michael, rh Alun Question accordingly agreed to. Gapes, Mike Miliband, rh David Gardiner, Barry Miller, Andrew Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin Glass, Pat Moon, Mrs Madeleine PUBLIC BODIES BILL [LORDS] (MONEY) Goggins, rh Paul Morden, Jessica Queen’s recommendation signified. Goodman, Helen Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Greatrex, Tom Morris, Grahame M. Order No. 52(1)(a)), Green, Kate (Easington) Griffith, Nia Mudie, Mr George That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Public Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg Bodies Bill [Lords], it is expedient to authorise the payment out of Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Mr Jim money provided by Parliament of— Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Paul (a) any expenditure incurred by a Minister of the Crown in Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian consequence of the Act or an order under the Act; and Hanson, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa (b) any increase attributable to such an order in the sums which Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nash, Pamela under any other Act are payable out of money so provided.— Havard, Mr Dai O’Donnell, Fiona (Miss Chloe Smith.) Healey, rh John Onwurah, Chi Question agreed to. Hendrick, Mark Osborne, Sandra Hepburn, Mr Stephen Owen, Albert Heyes, David Pearce, Teresa Hillier, Meg Perkins, Toby PUBLIC BODIES BILL [LORDS] (WAYS AND Hilling, Julie Phillipson, Bridget MEANS) Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pound, Stephen Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Hoey, Kate Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Order No. 52(1)(a)), Howarth, rh Mr George Reed, Mr Jamie That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Public Hunt, Tristram Reeves, Rachel Bodies Bill [Lords], it is expedient to authorise the making of Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Emma provision under the Act in relation to income tax, corporation James, Mrs Siân C. Reynolds, Jonathan tax, capital gains tax, stamp duty, stamp duty reserve tax or Jamieson, Cathy Riordan, Mrs Linda stamp duty land tax in connection with a transfer of property, Jarvis, Dan Ritchie, Ms Margaret rights or liabilities by a scheme under the Act.—(Miss Chloe Johnson, rh Alan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Smith.) Johnson, Diana Rotheram, Steve Question agreed to. Jones, Graham Roy, Mr Frank Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Jones, Mr Kevan Ruane, Chris Business without Debate Jones, Susan Elan Ruddock, rh Joan Jowell, rh Tessa Sarwar, Anas Joyce, Eric Seabeck, Alison Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra DELEGATED LEGISLATION Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Kendall, Liz Sheridan, Jim Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, we shall Khan, rh Sadiq Shuker, Gavin take motions 7 and 8 together. Lammy, rh Mr David Skinner, Mr Dennis Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Lavery, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Order No. 118(6)), Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, rh Mr Andrew Leslie, Chris Smith, Nick Lloyd, Tony Smith, Owen CHARITIES Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Spellar, rh Mr John That the draft Charities Act 2006 (Changes in Exempt Charities) Long, Naomi Stringer, Graham Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 12 May, be Love, Mr Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela approved. Lucas, Caroline Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry That the draft Charities Act 2006 (Principal Regulators of Lucas, Ian Tami, Mark Exempt Charities) Regulations 2011, which were laid before this Mactaggart, Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth House on 12 May, be approved.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) Mahmood, Shabana Timms, rh Stephen Question agreed to. Mann, John Trickett, Jon Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Marsden, Mr Gordon Turner, Karl Order No. 118(6)), McCabe, Steve Twigg, Derek McCann, Mr Michael Umunna, Mr Chuka McCarthy, Kerry Vaz, rh Keith EQUALITY McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Vaz, Valerie That the draft Equality Act 2010 (Work on Ships and Hovercraft) McDonnell, John Walley, Joan Regulations 2011, which were laid before this House on 13 May, McFadden, rh Mr Pat Watson, Mr Tom be approved.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) 281 Business without Debate12 JULY 2011 Business without Debate 282

The Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing 13 July (Standing Order No. 41A). Order No. 119(11)), Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 10 to 13 together. EUROPEAN SEMESTER OF ECONOMIC POLICY Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing CO-ORDINATION Order No. 118(6)), That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 11491/11, relating to a Commission communication on concluding OFFENDER MANAGEMENT the first European Semester of economic policy co-ordination, That the draft Co-operation in Public Protection Arrangements No. 11196/11: relating to a Draft Council Recommendation on (UK Border Agency) Order 2011, which was laid before this the UK’s National Reform Programme 2011 and a Council House on 23 May, be approved. opinion on its updated Convergence Programme for 2011-2014, and No. SEC(2011)736, relating to a Commission Staff Working ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS Document on the assessment of the UK’s 2011 National Reform Programme and Convergence Programme; welcomes the That the draft Communications Act 2003 (Maximum Penalty Commission’s support for the Government’s efforts to reduce for Contravention of Information Requirements) Order 2011, the deficit, which is consistent with the conclusions reached by which was laid before this House on 23 May, be approved. the IMF and the OECD in their recent reviews of the UK economy; welcomes the conclusion of the first European Semester, ENERGY but notes the Government’s maintenance of the scrutiny reserve That the draft Renewable Heat Incentive (Amendment to the at Council and European Council as part of its concerns about a Energy Act 2008) Regulations 2011, which were laid before this timetable which has not permitted proper Parliamentary scrutiny; House on 20 June, be approved. welcomes the Government’s intention to press for more timely publication of these documents in future; and welcomes the That the draft Renewable Heat Incentive Regulations 2011, Government’s policy of securing assurances that the UK cannot which were laid before this House on 20 June, be approved.— be subject to sanctions in respect of the Stability and Growth Pact (Miss Chloe Smith.) under existing Treaty provisions or proposed new legislation on Question agreed to. economic governance.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Question agreed to. Order No. 118(6)),

EQUALITY That the draft Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties) Regulations POLITICAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 2011, which were laid before this House on 27 June, be approved.— COMMITTEE (Miss Chloe Smith.) The Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question Ordered, being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday That Yasmin Qureshi be added to the Political and Constitutional 13 July (Standing Order No. 41A). Reform Committee.—(Miss Smith.) 283 12 JULY 2011 Youth Unemployment (Walsall) 284

Youth Unemployment (Walsall) and, indeed, about how it came about. My purpose tonight, however, is not to engage in that wider debate— Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House there will be many opportunities in which I am sure I do now adjourn.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) will participate—but to concentrate on the borough and the particular constituency of Walsall North that I Mr Speaker: Before I ask the hon. Member for Walsall represent and on what can be done to provide more North (Mr Winnick) to rise from his seat, I appeal to opportunities for those without employment. That is Members leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and the purpose of tonight’s Adjournment debate. quietly, in order to afford the same courtesy to the hon. Gentleman that they would wish to be extended to them The sharp decline in manufacturing—what is sometimes in the same circumstances. referred to as metal-bashing—is clearly an important factor, not only for Walsall, but for what are usually described as the four black country boroughs. Walsall 10.31 pm council’s latest review, looking at the overall employment Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Thank situation in the borough, noted that in 2009, quite a you, Mr Speaker. number of new enterprises arose. That was very good. I applied for this debate in view of the serious youth Unfortunately, however, there were quite a significant unemployment in the Walsall area and particularly in number of job losses. The net loss in 2009 was somewhere my constituency. The latest figures show that, in my in the region of 285 jobs. Yes, jobs come in, but too constituency, just under 16% of people in the 18 to many also go out. 24 age group are claiming jobseeker’s allowance. I am As for vacancies, the figures show that 10.8 people—I pleased to see the Secretary of State for Work and use the exact figure—go after every job. I hope that Pensions on the Front Bench tonight, as well as the there will be no disagreement about the fiction that Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, there are jobs here and jobs there, so that those registered the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris as unemployed—whether in the 18 to 24 age group or Grayling). I should point out to them that that rate of older—are not particularly keen to get work and are not just under 16% is the third highest in England. The willing to try to get it. All that is absolute fiction. I have situation in the other parts of the borough is not much seen reports in the paper on many occasions that when different, and it is certainly still higher than the national a vacancy occurs, there are sometimes as many as 40, average. 50 or even 100 people applying for it. As I said at the Let me state what should be obvious: unemployment start, if we take the view, with which Ministers agreed, is a curse to all those seeking work, and no less so to that those who are unemployed are keen and want to young people who want to get started in life. I emphasise work, it is not surprising that people chase after vacancies again, as I have done in this House over the years, that and take every opportunity to try either to get into we ourselves do not wish to become unemployed through work for the first time or to get back into work. losing our seats at any stage, and that we are always What I want to find out tonight is what steps the anxious to find work, and the same applies to the Government intend to take, particularly in boroughs overwhelming majority of those who are registered like mine. Let me point out again that this borough is unemployed. the third highest in England for youth unemployment. What measures are the Government going to take? The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain What feeling can people in my constituency and in the Duncan Smith) indicated assent. borough have for the fact that the Government recognise the urgency of the position and are willing to act on it? Mr Winnick: I am glad to see the Secretary of State I know that a number of measures have been publicised. nodding in agreement. There is understandably considerable Insofar as they are positive and will bring work and concern over the position locally. I fear a return to the bring down unemployment, I will obviously welcome situation in the 1980s, when two major recessions had a them. It would be strange otherwise. However, I ask devastating effect not only on the borough but on the Ministers when these measures that have been mentioned black country and on the west midlands in general. and published are going to come into effect. Have any Let me give the House an illustration of the situation of the measures on youth unemployment yet come into nearly 26 years ago. In September 1985, more than one effect? Moreover, what priority will the Minister give in fifth of the age group that I am referring to were on his reply to areas of high youth unemployment? It is unemployment benefit in the borough of Walsall. The important for him to answer that question. situation improved over a period of time, and it certainly There is no doubt that we need more apprentices. It is did so in the first years of this century. In May 2004, the unfortunate that, more in my part of the country than youth unemployment percentage in Walsall was down in other areas, too many leave school at the first opportunity. to 7%. Even then, however, it was higher than the Here we are talking about the under-18s. In a debate on national average. I ask the Ministers to tell the House education maintenance allowance that I initiated in when we are likely to see the percentage go down to that January, I demonstrated that the percentage who received figure that pertained seven years ago. Last year, youth the allowance in the borough and in my constituency unemployment rose in the three constituencies of Walsall was very high indeed. North, Walsall South and Aldridge-Brownhills. As the House knows, EMA is paid to those who stay I do not challenge the fact that as the global recession at school after the age of 16 when the income of their took effect from 2008 onwards, unemployment grew. It households is relatively low. Unfortunately, the Government is clear; the figures show it. I am not going to dispute took measures to undermine the allowance. I do not what is, after all, quite obvious. There are bound to be know whether that is a controversial thing for me to say continuing debates about how to deal with the recession in a debate in which I have tried to avoid controversy, 285 Youth Unemployment (Walsall)12 JULY 2011 Youth Unemployment (Walsall) 286 but I do know that the steps taken by the last Government projects recently, and will announce further projects in through EMA to encourage 16-year-olds to stay at due course—is designed to stimulate and support school were very useful. It is clear that more training manufacturing, research and related areas of business opportunities are needed, so that those who leave school in parts of the country where we need to build up and at 16 or 17—which I think we all agree is too early—can strengthen the manufacturing base, the research base obtain the necessary skills and need not spend years, and the skills base. perhaps the rest of their working lives, in unskilled I would argue—I suspect this might be a point of work with all the insecurities that that involves. difference between the hon. Gentleman and me—that I said that I had applied for the debate because of the the measures we are taking to address the deficit, challenging seriousness of the situation, and it is indeed a serious though they may be, are a necessary part of creating a situation. As a constituency Member, I have a duty to stable economic environment where businesses will grow do what I can to highlight the difficulties and bring and invest and create jobs. Over the past 12 months them to the attention of the House of Commons, there has been good growth in private sector employment which, after all, is one of the responsibilities of a in the UK. About 500,000 new private sector jobs, the Member of Parliament. I have done that in the past, majority of them full-time, have been created over that and I shall continue to do it for as long as I sit in the period, but it remains a concern that, despite that, there House. I hope that the Minister will be able to satisfy has been very little change in the numbers on jobseeker’s me that the measures announced by the Government allowance. That is certainly the experience for young will be effective, and will come into operation soon. people in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. Job opportunities have been created, therefore, but 10.41 pm we are not seeing people move into those jobs, so what do we do about that? There are three particular steps The Minister of State, Department for Work and that we are taking. The hon. Gentleman asked when Pensions (Chris Grayling): We meet again, Mr Speaker, some of the measures we have proposed will be put into although not quite as late as the last occasion on which action, and my answer is that they are in place now. we debated youth unemployment in the Chamber. They are relatively new—they are in the early stages—but I congratulate the hon. Member for Walsall North they are there, and we are working hard now to address (Mr Winnick) on securing the debate, and also on the some of the concerns that the hon. Gentleman raised. measured way in which he addressed what I regard as a Let me now describe those three key parts—they are very serious issue. We have had quite a few debates not the only parts—of our strategy. The first issue is about it, and I must say that his approach was commendable how we might provide support for the shorter-term in comparison with that of some Members to whom I unemployed young people, to get them into the workplace. have listened. The vast majority of young people who sign on to JSA I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about the issue, are in work within a few months. Of those who have and about the future of young people in his constituency. been out of work for nine months, only a small proportion Let me tell him about the measures that we are taking to of those who signed on on day one are still out of work. address the problem. It is a long-standing problem, not For that first group who get into work in the shorter simply a problem of the recession years. During the term, we want to accelerate the process and make sure past decade, from 2003-04 until the present day, there they move into work without spending those first few has been a steady increase in youth unemployment in months on JSA looking for work. this country—even during what have been relatively Crucially, that is where our work experience scheme prosperous times economically—although the national comes into play. It has its origins in an e-mail I received figures for the last two months show a significant drop, from the mother of a teenage girl shortly after I was which is of course welcome. appointed to my post last year. She said her daughter The hon. Gentleman was right to focus on the number had just sorted out a month’s work experience for of young people in his constituency who receive jobseeker’s herself, and that it was clearly the right thing for her to allowance. All too often people focus on the number of do, but that she had been told by the jobcentre that if unemployed people according to the International Labour she did that work she would lose her benefits. That is Organisation measure, which includes a substantial clearly a mad situation, and we swiftly moved to address number of full-time students and somewhat distorts the it. What we have done is turn that on its head, by saying true picture. As the hon. Gentleman will know, in his that it is a good thing for young people to do work constituency there has been a small increase—small in experience, as it gives them a first taste of the workplace comparison with the previous position—in the number and a period of time to prove to a potential employer of unemployed young people receiving JSA over the that they have skills that that employer might wish to last 12 months, but there was a much bigger and fairly retain, and so we are now allowing young people to do steady increase over the previous decade. up to eight weeks of work experience while continuing There is indeed a problem that we must address, and to claim JSA. to which we must deliver solutions. One of those solutions Furthermore, our Jobcentre Plus employer relations involves stimulating economic growth in what are still teams around the country are actively looking for work challenging times economically. We are particularly experience opportunities for young people. At the last concerned about regions where there have been significant count, we had about 35,000 committed placements over economic changes, where there is a smaller private the next year. We have already placed many thousands sector than we might wish and higher public sector of young people into work experience opportunities, employment than in other areas, and where there is a and we are starting to see some of them move into particular labour market challenge. The regional employment as a result of that, some staying with those growth fund—we announced the first tranche of RGF who provided the work experience. It will take time for 287 Youth Unemployment (Walsall)12 JULY 2011 Youth Unemployment (Walsall) 288

[Chris Grayling] Department for Work and Pensions, in partnership with the Minister for Further Education, Skills and the programme to build right across all the young Lifelong Learning in the Department for Business, people who could potentially benefit from it, but I am Innovation and Skills, will work extremely hard to very keen about this, particularly this summer when engage employers, including in the hon. Gentleman’s another generation of school and college leavers will be area. I know that his area contains some very good coming into the labour market. Our team in Jobcentre employers and some employers who have recruited from Plus will be working hard to give those young people a overseas in the past. I would much rather see them rapid opportunity to gain real work experience, and not recruiting local apprentices, developing them and giving for one week or two weeks, but for an extended period them opportunities. We are very happy to work with with the hope that in many cases the employer who him to do anything we can to help engage and involve takes them on will take a look at that young person and employers in his constituency. If he is not already in say, “Actually, they’re rather good. I’d like to be able to discussion with the employer outreach team in Jobcentre keep them, and we’ll offer them a position.” That has Plus in his area, I would be happy to arrange for such certainly been our experience so far; that is what has discussions to take place. been happening in a number of cases. Even if there is The third and newest piece of our jigsaw puzzle to not a job opportunity for the young person, we hope deal with this problem is the introduction of the Work that that couple of months of experience—and, I hope, programme, which began in mid-June in the hon. a positive reference from the employer—will give them Gentleman’s area. We have a good team of providers in a leg up in applying for a further vacancy. the Birmingham area, who will have centres all around The second part of the equation is also crucial to our the west midlands—there will be centres in Walsall, strategy to help young people. It is the big increase in Wolverhampton and Birmingham. I strongly believe the number of apprenticeships. We took a decision very that the Work programme provides the additional piece early on, because we think apprenticeships are a better that is needed to deal with longer-term youth unemployment path to help young people down than some of the and, in particular, to help those who have come from schemes we inherited from the previous Government. I the most challenged backgrounds. I have no doubt that know that there has been great debate about the future some of the jobseeker’s allowance claimants in his jobs fund, but our view is that a big increase in the constituency, to whom he refers, are young people who number of apprenticeships, with almost 100,000 extra have come out of some of the most challenging over the past year, is a better way of providing long-term backgrounds, and who have left school early without opportunities. This is not simply about the training that proper skills development and without qualifications. people gain as an apprentice; the skills they gain in the They may well have come from workless households, workplace over an extended period lasting one, two or where they have not had experience of a parent going three years are much more likely to give a young person out to work in the morning. They represent one of the the foundation for a long-term career. The increase biggest challenges we face in the labour market. Helping in the number of apprenticeships that we have seen over them, motivating them and guiding them towards an the past few months will be sustained over the course of entry into the labour market is an extremely important this Parliament. These apprenticeships will be available challenge for us, and I see it as a central part of what the to the young people leaving school and college this Work programme providers are there to do. summer, and it is very much my hope that many young The Work programme is very clearly intended to be a people who go through those two months of work revolution in the way in which we deliver welfare to experience will then be able to stay on as apprentices. I work, and I have been visiting providers today in the am absolutely of the view that the increased number of east midlands to talk about what they are doing. That apprenticeships is a crucial part of dealing with the revolution is most clearly to be found in two things. The issues in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, which he first is the freedoms we are giving private, voluntary and rightly raises. public sector organisations involved in the Work programme and working together in teams to decide what works Mr Winnick: I am listening carefully to what the best, to adapt to change and to pursue best practice but, Minister is saying, but it does not alter the fact that the above all, to find the best way of helping people to number of apprenticeships in my constituency remains move into the workplace and stay there. The second very small compared with elsewhere. I am still wondering crucial part of this revolution is the fact that the scheme how extensive the concentration will be on the areas—this is based on payment by results. For the first three years is not just about my constituency, by any means—where of seven-year contracts, the providers will get a small the level of unemployment is so high among young up-front payment and after that no up-front payment at people. all; the next money they see will come when someone has been in work for six months. They will have a real Chris Grayling: This is very much about us collectively, incentive to find the best practice and particularly to by which I mean the hon. Gentleman, as a Member of match individuals to the right vacancy to help them stay Parliament, and Ministers in overseeing Jobcentre Plus in work over a sustained period. and in our work to try to engage employers in the work experience scheme. One of our key goals has to be to Mr Winnick: I asked the Minister when we were likely encourage employers to get involved in the apprenticeship to return to the situation we faced in 2004. In my scheme and take on apprentices. I think that taking on a remarks, I have tried to avoid controversy so far as it is good apprentice is a very good way for the employer to possible for me to do so, but he will know that I disagree add skills at a relatively low cost to their organisation, with the Government’s overall economic policy as I and we can all play a part in helping that to happen. I think it is deepening the economic downturn. Having give him an absolute commitment that we in the said that—I very much mean it, too, as I think the 289 Youth Unemployment (Walsall)12 JULY 2011 Youth Unemployment (Walsall) 290 present economic policy is far too severe—may I ask I will say, however, that the increase the hon. Gentleman when my part of the world is likely to see the same sort has seen is not simply down to the recession. It is a of situation with youth unemployment, if not adult longer-term trend and problem. Employers are reluctant unemployment, as we did in 2004? to take young people straight from school, college and university and sometimes it is easier to recruit from overseas. Our job, as well as that of the teams delivering Chris Grayling: I would love to get a crystal ball out the work experience opportunities, those delivering for the hon. Gentleman, but sadly I am not an economic apprenticeship opportunities and those working extremely forecaster and I would not want to try to make such an hard on the Work programme, is to ensure that those estimate. The official forecasts from the Office for Budget young people take advantage and get into the vacancies Responsibility, however, expect an increase in employment as and when they arise. That will give a generation of over the next four years, even after we take into account young people a genuine opportunity to move into work. job losses in the public sector, of just under 1 million I do not want to see a large number of young people positions. Over the past 12 months, private sector stranded on benefits for years and years and I share the employment around the country has increased by about hon. Gentleman’s aspiration to tackle the youth 500,000. unemployment problem. I am happy to continue to Our key goal should be to ensure that young people work with him to discuss the issues in his constituency in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and their counterparts and to encourage our Jobcentre Plus teams to work elsewhere who are on jobseeker’s allowance and who are with him to address those problems. I give him a struggling to get into work get all the help they need to commitment that youth unemployment in his constituency, take advantage of those jobs as they are created. The and around the country, is a priority for us and we will OBR will continue to publish forecasts and it is our do everything we can to ease it. We believe it should be intention to pursue a growth agenda that fosters and at the very top of the Government’s agenda and it will encourages business growth and the creation of jobs. I continue to be there until we have cracked it. hope that as the OBR reflects circumstances and the Question put and agreed to. impact of our policies, we will get closer to being able to give him an answer, but I fear that I cannot do that 10.57 pm tonight. House adjourned.

1WH 12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 2WH

I want to cover two areas in my speech. The way to Westminster Hall help to preserve and enhance the train-building industry would have been to give Bombardier the Thameslink Tuesday 12 July 2011 contract in the first place. I want to talk about whether there is any way that the Government can still reconsider that decision. We are only at the preferred-bidder status [MR ROGER GALE in the Chair] stage and have not signed on the dotted line for the whole contract, so I think there is still scope for that to Train-building Industry happen. I also want to look at how we can go forward in Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting a better way to procure such contracts more sensibly, be now adjourned.—(Mrs Villiers.) so that there is a level playing field and our only UK train-building company has a fair chance of winning 9.30 am contracts. That may not be how we see the current Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair): We commence with a process. one and a half hour debate on the future of the UK The award of preferred bidder status on the Thameslink train-building industry. Six hon. Members in addition contracts to the Siemens consortium rather than the to the securer of the debate have indicated that they Bombardier one has led many of my constituents to wish to speak, and I propose to call the Front Benchers think that the Government have taken leave of their at half-past 10 o’clock. Hon. Members may wish to do senses. We have rightly spent the past year talking about the maths and work out that if they allow themselves the need to focus on the manufacturing sector to provide not more than six minutes each, we should accommodate the skilled jobs we need and to rebalance the economy everybody who wishes to participate. away from London and the south-east. My constituents have told me that they thought that that meant the 9.31 am midlands and the north, not Germany. Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): It is a pleasure to The industry is very skilled, with a huge number of serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gale. I shall try to skilled jobs of exactly the kind that we want to attract. be relatively brief on this important topic. I am grateful The award of this huge £1.4 billion contract to Siemens that we have the chance to debate and question the rather than Bombardier means that we are talking the Minister on the future of the UK train-building industry, talk, but not walking the walk. Frankly, my constituents especially with reference to the recent award of preferred- cannot understand why we do not spend taxpayers’ bidder status for the Thameslink contract to the Siemens money in a way that produces the overall best benefit to consortium, rather than the Bombardier one. It is of the economy of the UK as a whole and the Derby area. great interest to people in the whole Derby area, not We now risk losing not only the 1,000-plus jobs at least in my constituency of Amber Valley, that we get to Bombardier, but the jobs in the supply chain, which are the bottom of how the contract came to be awarded to much harder to quantify at this stage. a German rather than a UK-based manufacturer. My first question for the Minister is this: can the Government reconsider the decision? If not, would she Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): I congratulate my help us to understand exactly why not? We know from hon. Friend on securing the debate in what has been a Government answers and statements that their view in very difficult time for Derby and Derbyshire. Does he simple terms is that all they could do was open the agree that the decision also has an impact on constituencies submitted bids, compare them to the tender specifications such as mine, which are as far from Derby as I think drawn up by the previous Government, work out which Amber Valley is? It has had a profound effect and one was the most economically advantageous and award caused a lot of anger among my constituents, as well as, the contract. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation no doubt, my hon. Friend’s. and Skills has commented that the specifications were Nigel Mills: I am grateful for that intervention. I very narrowly defined and there was almost no doubt suspect that part of my constituency is a bit nearer to who would win. Derby than my hon. Friend’s, but I accept that we are We understand now that weighting for overall socio- all in the same area and that we have people who economic considerations was not included in the commute to work at the Bombardier plant and work in specifications. Had that been included, it may have the many support industries in the area and who are allowed the Government to take into account the overall threatened by the decision. impact of the job losses, the loss of tax revenues, the It is worth starting by saying that the area has a benefits they will need to pay out and the overall proud history with the railway industry, ranging back to knock-on effect on the economy. We would all much the beginning of the industry in the early 19th century—I rather that those things were included in the specifications. believe that production began in Derby in about 1839. Can the Minister confirm that that weighting was not The Midland Railway Centre is in my constituency. It is included in the contract? a tremendous attraction and I urge everyone to come Having realised that, did the Government consider to visit it, but the last thing we want is for our whole restarting the whole process and saying, “We got the railway industry to become a museum. We want a specifications wrong, and if we are to spend £1.4 billion thriving and growing train-building industry. We have of taxpayer and passenger money, let’s get it right and had a thriving and growing train-building industry. spend the money properly”? Did they look at doing Passenger numbers have been up year on year for ages that? Could they have done it? If not, why not? There is and we expect that growth to continue. There is no a lot of concern that we are going ahead with so reason why we cannot have a viable industry in the UK significant a contract, with such significant implications, if the Government support it. when the Government do not even seem to think that 3WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 4WH

[Nigel Mills] Have the Government considered that? If the financing costs made it hard for Bombardier to compete in the the procurement process has been handled properly or award of preferred-bidder status, did the Government included all the conditions that ought to have been think, “Actually, financing is a very risky thing for included. anybody to try and do for this long period. Should we One reason why Bombardier has concerns is its record take that out of the process and tender it separately?”? with Department for Transport procurement processes. That might have been worth considering. It can win contracts worldwide. It can even win contracts The same presentation outlines that the accreditation to build trains in Germany. It can win contracts with process structure had a weighting of 40% for business everybody else in the UK. Out of the 14 bids it made for excellence and approach, and 60% for technical capability contracts from operating or rolling stock companies, it and experience. I do not know whether those weightings has won 11, but out of five bids where the DFT was were used in the final process, but if they were, it would running the process, it has won none. Is that just bad be interesting to understand how. We would all like to luck or does it suggest that there is something wrong understand exactly how close these bids were. Where with how the DFT procures the contracts? Do the was Siemens stronger and where was Bombardier stronger? Government think that huge DFT contracts are the I fear that the answer to that probably involves hugely right way to go about train procurement or should we sensitive commercial data that the Minister cannot release look at letting the operating or rolling stock companies, today. We want people to understand why we are spending which have great experience running such things, be in taxpayers’ and passengers’ money in this way, but it is charge of the process? There is a suggestion that the hard to explain the process when we cannot access the very structure of the tender process made it hard for full details. Bombardier to win. The phrase used was “bundled design, build, maintenance and finance” commercial One matter that has been raised—it would be helpful structure—I find it difficult to get my head around that to have some clarification on this—is the lightweight mouthful. bogie that will be used in the contract. For a contract It was not a case of looking for someone to build that Siemens won in Germany, it had to use Bombardier’s trains and sell them, but a case of awarding a contract bogie, and there is a joint contract in place for that. I for someone to build, provide and maintain trains and understand—I cannot find any evidence for this on the keep them on the tracks for the best part of 30 years. It internet—that Siemens has not managed to produce, is a hugely complex financing exercise. I am not sure test or bring into operation anywhere a lightweight whether we were looking for a train-builder or a bank. bogie. The German train industry was not desperately One suspects that it is much easier for a huge multinational, keen to have its trains experimented on and tested, and diversified conglomerate with a brilliant credit rating to therefore Siemens has used the Bombardier-made bogie produce the cheapest bid, rather than the group that to ensure that it gets the reliability from scratch. Frankly, can build the best trains. I do not know about other such a situation seems a little perverse. The Germans hon. Members, but I am not sure that I can predict give a contract to a German train company but they are where I will be in 2045. I will be 70 years old, and I hope not willing to have their trains experimented on, and we I will be getting a state pension by then, but I am not end up awarding a contract to a German train company totally convinced of that. It is scary to think that these for our trains to be experimented on rather than awarding train carriages will be retired after me, but that is how it to the UK company that could have used its bogie, long we are talking about. which it knows works. The contract is to maintain the trains and keep them Anecdotally, one of the attractions for Siemens was on the rails until 2045 or thereafter, which is a hugely mentioned by the UK chief executive of Siemens rail difficult thing to do. How many of us can predict what industry operations, Steve Scrimshaw, in an interview the currency of many EU nations will be even in a year’s with Rail Professional in March this year: time? How many of us can predict how many major banks will still be solvent in a year’s time? And yet, we “A lot of the DfT’s scoring is around deliverability and our trains work straight out of the box.” are asking the train-builders to come up with a finance package that in effect runs for that long period. How Interestingly, that same article goes on to talk about the can they do that cost-effectively? The process started in problems that Siemens has had delivering trains into 2008 and the state of the banks was even worse then Scotland, where they have not worked straight from the than it is now. box and their entry into service was delayed by ScotRail Many hon. Members are concerned that the private until it could resolve some of the technical issues. It is finance initiative resulted in taxpayers paying people to not the case that Siemens delivers and works perfectly borrow far more expensively than the Government could, every time, and that Bombardier does not. The fact that and we ended up having to pay for that for 30-odd Bombardier can win contracts in the UK and around years. Is there not a risk that that is what we are doing the world shows that it probably has a similar quality of with this? We are in effect locking people into a hugely delivery to Siemens. expensive way of financing something, but if we did it In light of those issues, the key question for the better there might be a cheaper way. Government is this: can they and will they reconsider I looked at some of the original tender documents this decision before the contract goes to final status? from 2008, and there was an interesting presentation to Some of the concerns about the procurement process interested parties in the “Commercial and Financial that I have set out have led my hon. Friends the Members Overview”. On the financing side, it states: for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham), for South Derbyshire “Consistent with HMT best practice, the Department will (Heather Wheeler) and for Erewash (Jessica Lee)—she reserve the right to hold a funding competition”. sadly cannot be here today—and I to ask the National 5WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 6WH

Audit Office to review this procurement process and have little choice but to go the same way. The issue is examine whether we are getting the most economically not new, because the previous Government considered advantageous position for taxpayers and passengers. it in 2003. They commissioned a report on how the EU There are doubts whether the DFT is very good at procurement processes were working to see whether handling these processes based on its experiences with there was unfairness or any inappropriate activity. As the intercity express programme contract and this one. usual, the conclusion was that there was no clear illegality, Let us be honest: this project was originally called but there appears to have been a slight distortion in the Thameslink 2000, but these carriages might hit the results. Interestingly, that report was written by the then tracks in 2015. That is not a tremendous procurement UK chief executive of Siemens, Alan Wood. It is amazing record. Is it right for the DFT to be handling these how things come back round to bite. contracts? My hon. Friends and I have fundamental concerns about whether the right requirements were in Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I congratulate the hon. the tender specification and whether we can come to the Gentleman on securing this important debate. On the right decision. Therefore, there seems to be a strong parochial protectionism of other countries, is it not the prima facie case to have another look at the matter and case that the UK is exceptionally successful in winning ensure that we are spending £1.4 billion of taxpayers’ EU bidding contracts elsewhere? In fact, we come after money in the right way. only Germany in terms of the number and value of We can talk about the history of the process and this contracts that we win throughout the EU, so it works contract for as long as we like but, whatever happens on both ways. that, we need to get these things right in future. The fact that the past two major contracts have not gone to a UK manufacturer are bad enough but, if we are to sort Nigel Mills: I think that Germany wins 26% of the this process out and keep the train-building industry in time when it bids, and we win about 14%. However, I the UK, we need to start getting such things right and am not sure that those statistics work when we are ensuring that there is a level playing field. Let us be talking about major infrastructure projects that are of clear that no one is suggesting that we want Bombardier huge overall significance, rather than about some of the in the UK to be a new British Leyland. Bombardier smaller ones. Frankly, across the EU as a whole, we are does not want that and absolutely no taxpayer would a hugely advanced economy, with all the high skills and want that. We have a company that can build high-quality the value added. Therefore, we expect the UK to be able trains for the right price, and it should get the chance to to do things that other economies cannot yet do, and to do that. We want a process that creates a level playing be winning contracts. The key point is that thousands field, and for a UK manufacturer to have a fair opportunity and thousands of jobs are at stake. We are risking those to win contracts to build UK trains in the same way jobs by playing by the rules, but it seems that the that German manufacturers can build trains in Germany Germans, French and others are not. and French ones can build trains in France. Let us consider the Eurotunnel procurement. That What kind of message are we giving to the people we contract was awarded not to Alstom of France, but to want to invest and manufacture in the UK? It seems Siemens of Germany, which must be doing something that if someone wants to win a contract to build trains right. The French went mad and had a judicial review to for the German rail industry, they must build them in try to challenge that contract, because they were so Germany, and that if someone wants to win a contract surprised that it had not been awarded to one of their in France to build trains for the French rail industry, domestic companies. We have to send out the message they must build them in France. However, if someone that we want to encourage our UK train-building industry, wants to win a contract to build trains for the UK rail which is of huge value to us, and we want the Government industry, they can build them where they like. If an to support it. investor is short of money and considering which countries Perhaps we need to consider again how we go about to invest in, what will their conclusion be? They cannot procuring these train-building contracts. For many years, close the French or German plants because they know Bombardier has questioned how sensible it is to have a that they will not win contracts in those huge markets, feast of contracts and then a famine. How does that but they could close the UK one. enable it to be a sustainable, viable business? How does having to recruit and skill up to fulfil one contract and Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I congratulate then lay people off and start again make a company the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. I hope he cost-effective and ensure that we are getting the best recognises that the issue goes beyond just rolling stock price for our trains? How can Bombardier continually and that it relates to the whole of the rail supply chain. develop in the UK and improve its processes if it does Does he agree that the key question is this: why does the not know from year to year whether it will have a viable German industry not have more penetration in the manufacturing business in the UK? French market, and indeed, why does the French industry Let us not set any hares running. We all hope that not have more penetration in the German market, if Bombardier will retain a strong manufacturing presence both those countries are interpreting EU procurement in the UK and that this will not be a fundamental law in the same way as us? threat. However, it is a significant contract, especially on the back of its not winning the intercity express Nigel Mills: I am sure that all our constituents are programme contract. It would be helpful if the Government asking that question. If Germany and France do not set out what other contracts they expect to award in the open their markets, why do we open our markets so rest of this Parliament, and how significant their value much? We all want a level playing field. If Germany and may be. We know that Crossrail should be one contract. France are going to reward their industries, we may Many have raised the question whether the Government 7WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 8WH

[Nigel Mills] (Anna Soubry) indicated—have constituents with considerable expertise in the rail industry. The plant in can now bring forward that Crossrail procurement in Derby is in my constituency, but we all know from our the hope that Bombardier can win it and try to protect own constituents, wherever they may live, of the very jobs in the Derby area. real astonishment among rail industry aficionados. The Some have suggested that the Crossrail contract is people who know and understand, who have experience very closely linked to the Thameslink contract. The and expertise, are at a loss to understand and explain amount of cross-savings between the two might make it the decision, and the hon. Gentleman is entirely right to very hard for a company that does not have the Thameslink ask for an explanation. contract to deliver Crossrail competitively. Will the The hon. Gentleman talked about the weight given to Minister confirm that that is not the case, and that it is the different elements in the procurement process. Like open to the Government to award the Crossrail contract him, I have seen the references that have been made—I to a different provider? believe that the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills made one of them. There was a story in the Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I congratulate my Daily Express over the weekend suggesting that this was hon. Friend on securing the debate. Bombardier is a a decision based on finance, rather than on the kind of major employer in my constituency, too. He has discussed trains in which, as the hon. Gentleman rightly identified, the success of Bombardier and its ability to win contracts. our constituents will be travelling for many a year to Is he aware of the statistics that show that of 14 contracts come. He identified the fact that in the original procurement that Bombardier bid for that were not related to the process in 2008, the Department reserved the right to Department for Transport, it won 11, yet of all of the hold a funding competition. My understanding is that contracts it has bid for with the Department for Transport, there were two further opportunities—in March 2010 it has won not a single one? and January 2011, when further steps were taken in the Nigel Mills: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s bidding process—when the Department could have intervention. Had he been here from the start, he would triggered the right, which it had reserved, to look again have heard me quote those very same statistics. His and separately at the issue of funding, but it chose not point is valid, however, and he reiterates the question to do so. That is a concern to all of us. whether the Department for Transport is handling those The hon. Gentleman asked whether we are looking procurements in the most effective manner. for a train builder or a bank. As I understand it, I conclude by asking the Minister some questions Siemens has actually become a bank, which indicates about future procurement processes. Do the Government the strength of its balance sheet, but is that what we are think that there is a need for improvement? Should the looking for? Certainly not, if we are talking about Department for Transport be handling them? Will the whether there is a future for the train-building industry Department guarantee that the socio-economic benefits in this country. will be given some weighting in that process? Can the contracts be structured so that UK manufacturing industry Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I has a chance of a sustainable, viable future? Can we congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Amber look to structure those contracts in a way that gets Valley (Nigel Mills) on securing the debate. We are trains built, and not look for the biggest bank we can talking about the future of train building in this country. find to underwrite 30 years’ worth of financing? The decision to make Siemens the preferred bidder is No one should doubt that the train-building industry incredibly disappointing for all our constituents who is of great importance to the Derby area and the UK work at Bombardier, but surely the most important economy as a whole. We have a proud heritage of train thing is the way forward. The chairman of Bombardier building. We can and should have an exciting future of is going out to South Africa with the Government to train building. I urge the Government to do their bit to look at securing contracts out there. It is asking the ensure that that is what we get. Government to bring forward tube contracts by a couple of years, so that there is a future for train building in 9.52 am this country, and the college is opening up in Derby for Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab): I congratulate rail contracts. We have great expertise in the area, and in the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) not the north-west too. That is where we need to go with only on securing the debate, but on his excellent speech. this conversation. I am sure that, having heard my hon. In fact, my only criticism would be that he has left the Friend’s conversation with the Minister, answers will be rest of us with not very much to say. He has, effectively given, but we want to talk about the future, and the and well, used all the ammunition. Significantly, I think future will be train building in this country. I am right in saying that—perhaps not so unusually in this Chamber, but unusually in this place in general—almost Margaret Beckett: I agree in part with the hon. Lady. every hon. Member present is not here to attack or I take her point entirely that we are really interested in disagree. We are all here for the same purpose: to raise the future, but let us not overlook the fact that we have the concerns so ably set out a moment ago by the hon. barely started. The procurement process has not concluded. Gentleman. If the Minister’s Department and her All that has happened is that a preferred bidder has ministerial colleagues were nurturing the illusion that been identified and negotiations have been opened. The this is a decision that would go away, that might be an hon. Member for Amber Valley referred to the intercity error. express programme contract. In the hands of the Cross-party interest in this issue has been clear this Department for Transport, that went to Hitachi, but the morning. All the Derby Members here—perhaps almost contract for that has not yet been signed. Indeed, just every hon. Member, as the hon. Member for Broxtowe before the election the previous Government ordered 9WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 10WH a review of that contract, and this Government have off the hook on which they so far seem determined to substantially renegotiated it. We are very far from the impale themselves, some have been saying, in effect—I conclusion of this bidding process, so although I share am prepared to exempt the Minister—“If we can palm the hon. Lady’s view entirely that we should look to the off the blame for this on to the previous Government, future—I will come to that issue in a second—to secure then we don’t need to look again at the decision.” I am that future we must not abandon the prospect of changing sorry, but that will not wash this time, because of the present circumstances and the award of this contract. genuine concern about how the financing was handled, One concern about the attitude that the company is about the train, about the lost opportunity for new likely to take relates precisely to the issue of opportunities manufacturing in the UK and about the knock-on for the future. If this procurement goes ahead, we may effect on Rolls-Royce. This is not a done deal. lose the opportunity of an offer made by Bombardier. The Minister referred to the chair of Bombardier in As I understand it, it has decided at the highest level to the UK going to South Africa with the Prime Minister establish a worldwide centre of excellence for the design to promote British exports. I would not blame him for and manufacture of new cars for high-speed trains, for viewing the journey with some irony. In South Africa, future procurement—of exactly the kind referred to in they will be travelling on new trains, made by Bombardier the debate. Bombardier was prepared to site that worldwide for South African Railways, which felt able to award centre of excellence in Derby. That offer was, in effect, that contract. We can all ask why Bombardier could win thrown back in its face. That concerns me greatly. We that contract, but not one in this country. would be talking about more jobs—jobs with even We are very much at the opening stage in the process higher skills levels than we see now, and with the of negotiating the contract. The Government have only potential for new technologies. Although I and many in recently taken delivery of the McNulty report, which my party applaud what the Cabinet and the Prime also considers the supply chain; we have hardly touched Minister said in my Derby constituency about on that yet this morning, but the implications throughout manufacturing, skills and the need to rebalance our the country are enormous. Genuinely, I say to the economy, the skills base in our city is not just Bombardier; Government that this decision is a mistake. I do not it is also Rolls-Royce. We are a strong manufacturing accept the simple case that they have put because, as I base, but that base depends on the interaction between pointed out, there were opportunities for the Department those two companies, among others, on the supply to look at the financing, but let me take a step back chain, and on their ability to work together to establish from that. They can blame it on us if they like, but they and maintain that skills base. must change the decision—that is what matters.

The Minister of State, Department for Transport 10.3 am (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Does the right hon. Lady Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): It is a great acknowledge that the Government of which she was a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gale. member set the criteria for the procurement, and that there is no way for this Government simply to ignore I echo everything that my hon. Friend the Member the Siemens bid and give the contract to Bombardier? for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) said, and much of what We are bound by the criteria and by European Union the right hon. Member for Derby South (Margaret rules and we cannot simply rip up the process. Is she Beckett) said, because this issue is not party political advocating that we stop the procurement altogether and but about the welfare of people in all our constituencies. start afresh? That would delay considerably the Thameslink Everyone present today, especially from Derbyshire, is programme—which we inherited from the previous touched. However, there are particular worries over the Government already running 16 years late—and we border in Staffordshire, as well as in Nottinghamshire. would still have no guarantee of Bombardier being the Although Bombardier is in the right hon. Lady’s Derby winner at the end of the new procurement process. South constituency, the situation affects every single one of us. There is a huge knock-on effect on not only the supply chain, but where people spend their money. Margaret Beckett: I am sorry that the Minister decided If people are redundant and therefore do not have that this was a good time to make that party political money, all the knock-on industries will have to make point, when all of us are present to get her and her reductions, and that will have a big impact on our area’s Department to change their minds and look afresh at towns and cities. I know that Derby is not doing as well all the implications. We all know from our constituents as we come out of the recession as it could have done that there are very real questions about whether the had the contract been won. People have a huge lack of right decision has been made and whether proper account confidence about their future and how much money, if has been taken. We have talked about the financing so any, they will be able to spend. far, but we have also touched on whether the vehicle is Over the months during which we have been waiting fit for purpose and whether Siemens—although it is a for the decision, I personally lobbied the Secretary of fine company with a great engineering tradition—has State for Transport on several occasions. Unfortunately, the capacity to supply the trains needed. he told me every single time that I was not to worry I am genuinely quite sad that the Minister made that because Bombardier was fine and was not going to pull point. As the storm has arisen, not only in the Derby out of this country—I mentioned that that was a area but in the north-west and elsewhere, we have been possibility—as the company had lots of orders and inundated with requests from people throughout the would have no problem going forward. That is clearly country, with other Members and members of the not the case, so he misread the situation. I hope that he public asking, “What can we do to help? This is a mad feels somewhat apologetic about the decision because decision and none of us agrees with it.” However, for he was clearly not looking at the wider situation in some days I have had the feeling that, to get the Government Derby and the surrounding areas. 11WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 12WH

[Pauline Latham] able to take up opportunities to supply Siemens, or will Siemens procure everything from Germany or somewhere When Hitachi of Japan and not Bombardier won a closer to it, instead of our excellent businesses? The train order, did the Government review the procurement Secretary of State and the Minister need to answer process and look at why we did not get it? If that did not many questions about what swung the decision for happen, why not? Clearly, if we could not win that Siemens and why Bombardier did not get the contract. contract, other questions would be raised. As we heard Bombardier is an excellent production company. We earlier, Bombardier has not won five out of five of the have seen that it can win orders from other people, but important contracts going forward, so what can the not Government contracts, and that seems to be nonsense. Government do now? We must look to the future to see what the Government I am as disappointed as every other Member in the can do to bring forward procurement. There is Crossrail. Chamber today. We all get campaigning e-mails on We also need more tube trains and other rolling stock things such as forests and the NHS. However, of the needs to be replaced. Will the Government consider issues that affect real people in my constituency, I have urgently bringing that forward—not just by a year or had more e-mails and letters about this one than on all two, but as far forward as possible—to give Bombardier the rest put together since I was elected in 2010. That the opportunity to win some contracts and save jobs in says something about people’s depth of feeling—not the Derbyshire area? The position is devastating and we necessarily of those who work for Bombardier, but of need some answers, but I am sure that the Minister will those concerned about their neighbours, friends or relatives. be able to give them today. Some people have three or four relatives working with We are asking the Office of Fair Trading to examine Bombardier who are all being made redundant. That the procurement process and we are seeking a meeting will have a devastating impact on people in my area. with the Prime Minister. We must go to the very top and The situation is perhaps the worst we have faced since exhaust all possibilities. Can the contract be looked at the crash of Rolls-Royce in 1971—I clearly remember again? Can we seriously change the decision? I believe how devastating that was for Derby. It took us a long that the decision was wrong, but we must bring forward time to come out of that recession, although Rolls-Royce opportunities for Bombardier to get back on its feet is now a successful business. and to save jobs in Mid Derbyshire, Derby city and the I commend the city council for talking to Bombardier rest of the area. I urge the Minister to do all that she can and trying to make it understand the devastating impact to bring forward such opportunities for the future of on the area. Unfortunately, the company had already Bombardier and this country’s train industry. If it goes, made redundancy decisions, which I understand that we will not have a train industry and it will never ever the Secretary of State received a letter about as far back return. The country will then be left without a train as March or April. Bombardier was going to make industry of which we can be proud. those redundancies anyway, but however much we say that, it does not help the people with the redundancy Several hon. Members rose— notices in their hands. Whether they were made redundant three months ago or now, they are still redundant and Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair): Order. Five or six have an uncertain future. Members wish to speak. Some 15 minutes remain for My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley Back-Bench contributions, so I urge hon. Members to mentioned that we have been talking a lot about coming keep their speeches brief. out of the recession on the back of manufacturing. Well, it does not look like that from where I am sitting in Mid Derbyshire. If we do not do so with firms such 10.13 am as Bombardier, we will never do it, and we will not come Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): I will try to out of recession anywhere near as quickly as we might be brief, Mr Gale, and it is a great pleasure to serve have done had we got this contract in Derby. under your chairmanship. I agree with my hon. Friend about the Department I congratulate the hon. Member for Amber Valley for Transport: is it the right organisation to handle such (Nigel Mills) on an excellent speech. I agreed with procurement? It does not seem to be able to get it right. almost everything that he said, although I shall come on Obviously, I agree that there must be competition and, to a point with which I took slight issue. I agreed with as the right hon. Member for Derby South said, we do what the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the not want one contract and nothing else. We do not want Exchequer said when they came to Derby just three a monopoly, but competition must be fair, and it does months ago. The Prime Minister said: not seem to my constituents that there has been any fairness whatever. “The point of the Cabinet today is to ask one fundamental question: what is it that we can do in government to help the It is ironic that, not many months ago, the Secretary economy to rebalance, to grow and for businesses to start up, to of State for Business, Innovation and Skills came up to invest and employ people?” Rolls-Royce to open a new apprenticeship school. Some The Chancellor, said: 50% of those apprenticeships are with Bombardier. He congratulated Rolls-Royce on the facility and congratulated “Derby’s a great example of what Britain’s economy should be Bombardier on sharing it, but that sounds hollow now. in the future. And a strong endorsement of the importance of manufacturing industry.” What is the future for those apprentices? They do not seem to have one. Will half that facility now not operate? I could not agree more. That would probably mean redundancies. The train-building and railway industry has been a The implications for the supply chain reverberate not cornerstone of British manufacturing since the 19th century. just around Derby, but much further afield. What will It is a vital industry in the Derby area, and it would be a happen to companies in the supply chain? Will they be sad irony, would it not, if 2011 turned out to be the last 13WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 14WH year when a British train rolled off a British production in Germany have gone to German companies, and line? However, that is where we might be if the Government 100% of such contracts in France have gone to French are unwilling to reverse their decision. Derby gave the companies? Finally, will the Minister publish the results world the railways, and I want Derby to continue to of the value-for-money assessment applied to Siemens? have a future in the railway industry long into the I will conclude with a quotation from the Chancellor’s 21st century. Budget statement: The hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) “Manufacturing is crucial to the rebalancing of our economy.” referred to the Rolls-Royce crash of 1971. Derby has He continued: not faced a crisis of such proportions since then. Not “We want the words…“Made in Britain”, “Created in Britain”, for 40 years have we faced the possibility of losing so “Designed in Britain” and “Invented in Britain” to drive our many jobs in one go. I remember that, at the time, the nation forward—a Britain carried aloft by the march of the then Government were initially unwilling to intervene, makers. That is how we will create jobs and support families.”— but ultimately they did the right thing by Rolls-Royce, [Official Report, 23 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 958-966.] the workers, and the families who relied on Rolls-Royce I could not have put it better myself, so I urge the for their livelihood. Since then, Rolls-Royce has gone Minister and the Department to look carefully at the from strength to strength, and it is now the largest decision and to change it to ensure that British train employer in Derby. It is a world-leading company and a building has a future. top aerospace company in the world. I come to the matter raised by the hon. Member for 10.20 am Amber Valley with which I slightly took issue. He referred to a future for the train-building industry if the Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I shall preface my comments Government are unable to change their decision on the by saying that any job loss is a tragedy for the family of Thameslink rolling stock programme. My fear is that if the person involved. The hon. Member for Derby North that decision is not changed, the train-building industry (Chris Williamson) made a point about the supply in our country might not have a future. Let us be clear. chain, which is hugely important. Every job lost in From the autumn, Bombardier will have work for barely British manufacturing has a knock-on effect on three or 300 workers to finish off a contract for sub-surface four jobs in the supply chain. trains for the London underground, which means that I want to address three issues. First, did the UK make 3,000 people who are employed directly by Bombardier, the best use of EU procurement rules? Secondly, I will and at least a further 12,000 in the supply chain, could speak about open competition because we must not lose lose their jobs within the next 12 months. That would sight of the fact that we do well on that in Europe. have huge knock-on implications for the city, and not Thirdly, we must ask what we can do now and what the just for the individuals who lose their jobs, devastating best way forward is. as that would be, but because the wider implications for Will the Minister tell us, if she can, who interpreted Derby’s economy would be massive. the EU procurement rules? Were the rules interpreted in I agreed with what the hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire a way that might inadvertently have favoured Siemens said when she made that point and also referred to the as opposed to Bombardier? Were the rules gold plated apprenticeships that will be lost at Bombardier. I know and was our interpretation of them too strict? Why did that that is an area of priority for the Government—I the procurement rules not take account of the socio- share that view—so I implore the Minister to consider economic impact of the decision’s devastating results? I the training and employment opportunities for countless hope that the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee young people and future generations in the city of will conduct an inquiry into the matter. We were legally Derby. They will be denied such opportunities if the bound by the procurement rules established by the decision is not reversed. previous Government, and had we acted differently, we As I said, the train-building industry is a cornerstone would have been open to legal challenge, although I of British manufacturing. Surely we cannot allow such take no pleasure whatsoever in saying that. a situation to develop on the spurious grounds that On open competition, the UK wins 17% of all EU awarding a contract to Siemens represents value for contracts and comes second in Europe when it comes to money for taxpayers. How can that possibly be true winning European tenders. Protectionism is a harmful when 15,000 workers might lose their jobs? That would road down which to go for all countries in Europe. lead to a huge loss of tax revenue to the Exchequer, a loss of VAT because of reduced spending power, and Duncan Hames: My hon. Friend is right to make that the payment of increased unemployment benefit. point. Invensys Rail in my constituency produces world-class signalling technology and has worked on seven out of I shall present a petition to the House next week. It the eight most recent high-speed lines in Spain, and already has 27,000 signatures and the number is growing nine out of 12 of the metro lines in Beijing. When we by the day. It demonstrates the strength of feeling not have such exceptional engineering talent in our country just in Derby, but further afield, as my right hon. Friend that wins contracts abroad, some of us may wonder the Member for Derby South (Margaret Beckett) pointed why we are not more successful at winning contracts at out. The issue is national, not just local. home. I shall conclude with three specific questions to the Minister. What legal advice did the Department take on Lorely Burt: My hon. Friend makes an excellent and changing the terms of the original invitation to tender? important point that has also been raised by a several What assessment has been made of how Germany and hon. Members. We must be savvier when setting France have managed to stay within EU procurement procurement criteria. In Italy, specifications have been rules when, in the past 10 years, 98% of train contracts known to include the requirement that the same work 15WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 16WH

[Lorely Burt] recent years we have embraced industrial activism, and the Government have said that they wish to rebalance has been done previously in the same area, although the economy as part of the growth strategy. I welcome how it gets away with that I do not know. A study by that, but profound lessons must be learned from this Francesco Grillo concluded: sorry saga. Why can the Department for Transport not “In Britain, there are lower barriers to entry” seem to get backing British industry right? Will the than elsewhere in the EU. We desperately need to look Government recognise the immense leverage that exists at that. in more than £100 billion of public procurement funds, and will they use that in an intelligent way to underpin A balance must be struck, and there are some mitigating our manufacturing economy as part of the strategy for factors. Bombardier preannounced its intention to create growth? The Government must use their power to help 1,000 redundancies, regardless of the loss of the Thameslink manufacturing with a determination equal to that of bid. The growth review initiated by the Government France or Germany. will look at how business can be supported and at how UK manufacturing companies can meet our strategic Will the Government look again at how contracts are needs, the importance of which was raised earlier. We procured? The process was fundamentally flawed. As must look at whether the UK makes the best use of our hon. Members from all parties have said, there was no procurement strategy. On the bright side, the Business proper concern for the socio-economic consequences of Secretary has announced a taskforce headed by Margaret the contract decision, or for the consequences on the Gildea OBE that will work with Bombardier to help to supply chain and the long-term impact of such a loss of sustain a long-term manufacturing base in the UK—we capacity in Britain. That includes contracts that could are in this for the long term. be won both in Britain and internationally, since the trains will no longer be manufactured in Britain. One or two hon. Members alluded to the fact that Bombardier is Canadian-owned rather than British-owned. Finally, it is not too late for the Government to think Siemens will create 2,000 jobs as a result of being again. I have been impressed by the excellent contributions awarded the contract. Indeed, Bombardier has just won made by hon. Members from all parties during the a £354 million contract to provide signalling for the debate. We must learn lessons for the future, but for the London underground. It is therefore not all doom and here and now we need the Government to state that gloom, but we must do everything possible in Derbyshire only preferred-bidder status has been allocated and that to help people to revitalise their manufacturing base. it is not too late to change. Where there is a will, there is a way. The voice of people in the midlands is clear: they want the Government to back Britain and to back 10.25 am Bombardier. Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I, too, pay tribute to the hon. Member for Amber Valley 10.29 am (Nigel Mills) for initiating this debate. My father was a train driver for 15 years and he was proud to drive Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): It British trains. British trains were at the heart of a is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gale, thriving manufacturing base that at its peak employed and I will be as brief as possible. I congratulate my hon. more than 8 million people. Successive Governments Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) on have presided over the decline of manufacturing in securing this important debate and on his well-argued Britain. On one hand, the previous Conservative and thoughtful speech. I endorse all that he has said. Government saw 3 million jobs lost in manufacturing I have made no secret of my feelings about the fact during the 1980s, while on the other hand the Labour that the Government contract to build trains for Thameslink Government were slow to learn painful lessons. They will go to a German company and that the trains will be eventually arrived at industrial activism, but only after manufactured in Germany. Although the decision does 10 years, after our economy had become unbalanced, not directly impact on the Bombardier plant in Crewe, with too much emphasis on the financial sector and not it is none the less a hugely disappointing and deeply enough on the manufacturing sector. There was too frustrating outcome to what has ended up being a long much financial engineering, and not enough real and drawn-out saga. As my hon. Friend has said, we engineering. must go back 16 years to the inception of what was then Throughout that period, I fought many battles for termed the Thameslink 2000 project—I guess it is now procurement contracts. In 1992, I was involved with the Thameslink 2018 project—to realise how long the British Rail engineering works in York. We successfully decision has been left hanging. won an order for Networker trains for the southern The procurement process has gobbled up more than region, which kept that admirable world-class establishment £13 million in consultancy fees, and the Thameslink open for three further years. In general—I hope you will project is now £600 million over budget. That does not excuse the bad pun, Mr Gale—the direction of travel make the decision any easier to swallow for Bombardier has been depressing, with consequences for our country workers and raises a number of questions about and especially the midlands. Some 30 years ago, the procurement. What is clear is that the outcome of midlands had one of the two strongest economies in Thameslink is a hangover from decisions made some Britain; it now has one of the two weakest. time ago at the inception of the tendering process. It The country is recovering at a painfully slow pace appears that the EU procurement directive was adhered compared with Germany and France, which had the to to the letter. That slavish adherence to European wisdom to sustain a strong manufacturing base. Bombardier directives needs to be remedied. Some of those directives is right when it says that the situation we are now in have value, but others serve only to damage British could not have happened in Germany or France. In industry and, more specifically, industry in Crewe and 17WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 18WH

Derby. Why should we stick so rigidly to those rules contract to a company that will build the trains abroad, when they are so flexibly interpreted in other European the Government have given us their view of the future countries? It is no accident that the Italian police drive of rail manufacturing in the UK. Today, they have Fiats. heard calls from right hon. and hon. Members on both We cannot afford to make mistakes such as this. sides of the Chamber, which I echo, for them to think Companies such as Bombardier need to survive and again and be very clear that that is what they want in the thrive in the UK, or we will be reliant on overseas future. assistance to manage essential national infrastructure. Siemens is a major British employer in its own right, It simply does not make sense to go for the cheapest with more than half its 16,000-strong UK work force contracts if that means that hundreds of skilled engineers involved in manufacturing and engineering. The contract end up forming part of the dole bill. that we are discussing will lead to jobs. There is a dispute about just how many, but there will be jobs in 10.31 am the supply of train components and in maintenance. Some will be substituted for jobs that Bombardier Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I would have had if it had won the contract, while others congratulate the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel will be new. I welcome the commitment of Siemens to a Mills) on securing the debate. He will have noticed not new UK rail training academy, supporting the national only that everyone has congratulated him on that and skills academy for railway engineering. However, none on the way in which he made his remarks, but the great of that good takes away from the fact that the Thameslink agreement among all the speakers. trains will be built by a work force in Germany. The If rail were in decline in the UK, the loss of our rail reality is that the jobs that will be created would have manufacturing industry would be a tragedy, but it would had to have been in the UK whatever the result of the at least be understandable. We have seen industries procurement. decline because of technological or social change, but in The decision is undoubtedly a body blow for Bombardier, the case of rail, there is no excuse for letting the industry as right hon. and hon. Members who represent wither and die in Britain. In fact, the reverse is true. Rail constituencies in the immediate area, such as my right is thriving in the UK. More people are travelling now hon. Friend the Member for Derby South (Margaret than at any point since the 1920s—1.3 billion journeys Beckett) and my hon. Friend the Member for Derby are now made every year. There has been growth of an North (Chris Williamson), have said. The fact that additional 1 million journeys in the past five years 446 permanent and 983 contract staff already face alone. Every prediction suggests that demand is continuing redundancy is a severe blow, not only to the east midlands to increase and that it could double in the next 30 years. but to the whole of our manufacturing industry. The Rail is therefore a priority for investment for the foreseeable Government have tried to suggest that those jobs would future. have been lost anyway, but that has been strongly denied The Minister and I may have our differences over by the company, which has said that not one permanent spending, not least on the speed and scale of cuts, but position would have been lost had it secured the contract. there is consensus that as a country we will be investing The Government’s response so far to the uproar has in rail for many years. Whether the investment is in been to wash their hands of the process and try to track and signalling, stations or trains, we will be spending blame the previous Government. That might be billions of pounds in the years to come. That investment understandable, but it does not take us very far forward. should benefit the UK economy. It will lead to faster We have even seen the nonsense of the Transport Secretary journey times and additional capacity. Why cannot it writing to the Prime Minister to complain about the also lead to our supporting, improving and growing our decision that he himself has made. manufacturing industry, instead of our watching it leave the country? It could lead to significant increases in the I hope the Minister today will come forward with numbers of manufacturing jobs, which it has done in some rather more constructive ways in which she can the past decade. tackle the crisis that the decision has created. It is clear that the Department for Transport has not secured the Sadly, Bombardier is the last train manufacturer left most economically advantageous outcome either for in the UK, but under the previous Government it won the local community or for the country as a whole, successive orders, including £3.4 billion-worth of London despite it being perfectly permitted to do so. It is also underground trains, as well as trains for the London clear that there has been a particular problem in the Overground network, London Midland, Chiltern Railways Department for Transport, which was referred to by and the Stansted Express. Therefore, the decision by the right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the current Secretary of State for Transport to award the Chamber, including the hon. Members for Amber Valley £1.4 billion Thameslink contract to the German-based and for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham). The DFT Siemens-led consortium puts at risk 3,000 British jobs has awarded not a single contract to Bombardier since at Bombardier and very many more in the supply chain, it has been in charge of letting them, yet Bombardier as right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the won more than 70% of orders for new trains for the UK Chamber have said. rail industry when procurement was led by the rolling Our train manufacturing industry is at a crossroads. stock leasing and train operating companies. The company We can see it either follow other sectors and become yet has been incredibly successful around the world—another another assembly line, or remain a major manufacturer, point made by all who spoke in the debate—yet the taking advantage of the significant investment and orders DFT has not placed an order with a British-based that the success of rail in the UK will guarantee for company since it took over procurement. There is an years to come. We can ensure that we carry on building issue to be addressed by the Minister and serious questions trains in this country, but by awarding the Thameslink to be answered. 19WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 20WH

[Maria Eagle] on the network to just three. The Competition Commission calculates the average cost per vehicle at more than Opposition Members have called for a full independent £1 million, with 8% of procurement costs associated review of the procurement. We are clear that the review with the development of different bespoke models. must consider the social impact on the UK’s work force, Passenger rolling stock costs in Britain are 15% of the both for those directly employed by Bombardier and for industry’s running costs. The three changes that I have those in the wider supply chain. It must consider the outlined would make a significant difference to not only likely impact on the sector as a whole and the impact reducing that cost, but enabling British-based manufacturers on future procurement. Despite what Ministers say, to plan properly, skill their work forces adequately and the Government are perfectly entitled to do just that. secure the large, long-term, ongoing work that is achieved The Secretary of State’s predecessor, Lord Adonis, in sectors such as the defence industry. commissioned an independent review of the entire intercity In the meantime, the Government must not sit back express programme after the preferred bidder had been helplessly as yet another UK manufacturing sector is announced, and the new Government carried out a lost. It is not too late to look again at the Thameslink further review following the election. Both reviews led decision. As my right hon. Friend the Member for to substantial changes to the project, not least the Derby South, the hon. Member for Amber Valley and agreement that Hitachi would commit to Newton Aycliffe others have said, this is not a done deal. Siemens has as the preferred site for its planned European rolling been named as the preferred bidder, but the contract stock manufacturing and assembly centre, generating at has not been signed. While that remains the case, there least 500 new jobs in the north-east. is still a chance to look at the issue again and to take There are things that Ministers can do. As someone some action. who was a Minister for nine years, I confirm that it is Interestingly, the Minister for Housing and Local never the case that Ministers cannot do anything. Today, Government said in a written statement to the House I urge the Minister to think again and agree to a review on 16 June that Bombardier’s bid of the decision. Labour Members accept that we need “also presented an attractive proposal and it is our intention to to learn lessons from our own time in government. In retain them as the reserve bidder.”—[Official Report, 16 June 2011; view of the cross-party consensus among Back Benchers Vol. 529, c. 86WS.] in today’s debate, I hope that we can reach a cross-party If the proposal is attractive and would protect a large consensus on how rail procurement will be carried out number of British jobs, it must surely be right for the in the future, particularly as these decisions inevitably Minister for Transport to have another look at whether cross Parliaments. the right decision has been taken. I shall offer three specific suggestions for a way I want to ask the Minister a number of questions. forward. First, we need to consider how we operate Will she confirm on precisely what date DFT Ministers these contracts under the European procurement were first informed of the result of the procurement? directive—a point made by a number of right hon. and For what reason did she reject the option of holding a hon. Members. We must examine why France and Germany funding competition, which my right hon. Friend the manage procurement whereby their home-based companies Member for Derby South has mentioned? On a couple in almost all cases secure the work. Only in April this of occasions, that option could have been taken forward. year, German national rail operator Deutsche Bahn Why was it not? Why, as late as the start of this year, placed a ¤5 billion order for 200 high-speed trains with were bidders, including Bombardier, asked to supply a Siemens. A major contract such as that being awarded range of new information if, as the Government have to anyone but a domestically based company would be stated, the decision simply came down to a balance-sheet greeted with outrage and shock in Germany. comparison? If that was the determining factor, it could Secondly, we need to look at a longer-term capital have been done at an early stage in the procurement. investment programmes and not just stop-start, feast- The Minister will be aware that Deutsche Bahn recently and-famine programmes, as several Members have said. rejected the Siemens bogie design for the new generation Manufacturers are left unable to plan ahead. Why must of its high-speed trains and that it required the company Bombardier have so many agency workers? It is nonsense to use the Bombardier FLEXX Eco instead? What for trains to be built by agency workers, when train consideration was given to that element of the contract? building is such a skilled job. Those who build the trains Will she take this opportunity to accept that it was should have training, a proper career path and guaranteed wrong for her Department to brief the media that employment extending into the future, and they could Bombardier would have made job losses regardless of have that if we organised our procurement better. The the decision on the contract, because the company has lack of certainty created by stop-start procurement hits firmly denied that claim? investment in skills. Network Rail believes that a fifth of all procurement costs could be eliminated if there were Heather Wheeler: I do not know whether the hon. continuity of orders. It is 800 days since the last new Lady has seen the letter involved, which was dated rolling stock order was placed. The feast-and-famine 23 May, but I have, and I am surprised that she has said approach to rolling stock procurement, which has blighted what she has said. the sector for almost 20 years, must change, and there is no reason why it cannot, given the investment in this Maria Eagle: The hon. Lady is entitled to her opinion. country’s rail industry in the coming years. I am reflecting on what the company said publicly after Thirdly, we need to reduce the number of train designs the Government had made their claim, which it utterly to enable longer continuous orders, economies of scale denied. and interoperability. Network Rail has recommended Finally, will the Minister agree to look at the procurement reducing the 64 different rolling stock classes that operate process for Crossrail trains? That process is at an earlier 21WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 22WH stage than Thameslink was at when she inherited it. forward, we of course recognise the need to examine Will she look at Crossrail again, review the contract and wider issues about whether the UK approaches the the procurement process and bring forward a revised application of EU procurement rules in the right way proposal that includes the lessons of Thameslink? and achieves the right balance of risk. Similarly, I agree In addressing the Chamber at the end of this excellent with my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley that debate, I hope the Minister answers the questions that we need to see whether our approach is consistent with have been put to her. Of course, she will not have time those used in other member states. That is why the issue to answer them all, because there have been very many, will be considered as part of the Government’s growth but it would perfectly acceptable for her to write to us review. with detailed answers to the questions that she does not get around to answering. Nigel Mills: On that point, I would like to draw my right hon. Friend’s attention to another quote from Mr Scrimshaw, who is the head of Siemens’s train 10.44 am building in the UK. Rail Professional asked whether he The Minister of State, Department for Transport would ever look at building in the UK, and he replied: (Mrs Theresa Villiers): It is a pleasure to serve under “I wouldn’t rule it out. Currently, all the tenders from DfT your chairmanship, Mr Gale. I congratulate my hon. don’t include requirements for UK manufacture. We have a model Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) on that works quite well.” securing a debate on this important issue. I welcome the It seems that Siemens did not entirely rule out the contributions that he and other right hon. and hon. possibility that such a requirement might exist. Perhaps Members have made on this issue, which is important the Department could look at that in future. for Derby and the UK. I emphasise that the Government fully understand the concern that is felt. We, too, deeply Mrs Villiers: Even if we had designed the criteria, it regret the job losses that are under way in Derby, and remains the case that we could not have made the we, too, are determined to do what we can to help location of the manufacturing process a condition of Derby and Bombardier. successfully achieving the contract; that is simply not We recognise that Bombardier was hugely disappointed permitted by EU law. However, I totally deny the allegation not be made the preferred bidder for Thameslink, but that the Government are sitting back and not taking the procurement was set up and designed by the previous action. I agree that we need to take action to help Derby Government. Although we were left to open the envelope and Bombardier. The reality is that Bombardier advised on preferred bidder status, they set the criteria against the Department for Transport that it expected to make which bids had to be judged. We are legally bound by more than 1,000 redundancies, regardless of the outcome the criteria set by Labour at the beginning of the of the Thameslink procurement, because several of its process. orders are about to reach completion. However, whatever We are also legally bound by European law to judge the reason for the redundancies, we want to try to help bids on a completely blind basis. Under EU law, domestic Derby and the surrounding area at this difficult time. and overseas suppliers must be judged impartially and As a result of the review by Bombardier of its UK on a wholly equal footing. Against the published criteria rail operations, the Business Secretary has set up an we inherited, the Siemens bid clearly represented better economic response taskforce. It will he headed by Margaret value for money. Gildea and its remit will be to mitigate the economic We cannot make the location for the proposed impact of job losses at Bombardier, in its supply chain manufacturing part of the criteria. Contrary to what and in local communities. It will draw on representatives the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for from Derby city council, the county council, Derby Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), said, it was not college and the Skills Funding Agency. Jobcentre Plus a criterion for preferred bidder status in the IEP contract will also deploy its rapid response service, to support that Hitachi set up a factory at Newton Aycliffe, although workers who will be affected. That is in addition to the it has chosen to do so. work on skills that the Government have been involved In response to a number of points made by different with in Derby in partnership with Rolls-Royce and hon. Members, I should say that we could not simply Bombardier, and the support that the Department for rip up the procurement started by our predecessors. Transport is giving to the National Skills Academy for That would leave the Government at risk of facing Railway Engineering, which my hon. Friend the Member damages in the courts and lengthen the delivery of for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) mentioned. Thameslink, which, as I have said, and as hon. Members We shall do our best to help Bombardier to get the have acknowledged, was already running 16 years late overseas contracts it is bidding for, such as in South when we inherited it form the previous Government. Africa. That is one reason why representatives from There was no legal way we could simply ignore the Bombardier will accompany the Prime Minister on his Siemens bid and hand the contract to Bombardier; it visit to South Africa, which is coming up. simply is not in our legal power to do that. Margaret Beckett: I should not be a bit surprised if Maria Eagle: Is the Minister really saying she has no those representatives make the point that it will not help power in this matter? She is the Minister. them to gain confidence overseas if they cannot get contracts at home. Mrs Villiers: I am saying that, as the Minister, I need I want to raise a point that has been made in several to abide by the law and by our obligations under the quarters, about the job losses. I, too, have seen the letter European Communities Act 1972 and the treaty of from Bombardier to the Secretary of State. It makes Rome; I am afraid I have no choice in that. Going two things clear, one of which is that, indeed, as no one 23WH Train-building Industry12 JULY 2011 Train-building Industry 24WH

[Margaret Beckett] Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) about assessment of the position in Germany and France, we has attempted to deny, there were temporary, short-term looked carefully at their approaches, and will also do so contract jobs that were due to come to an end, which is as part of our growth review. As to whether we will a pity. However, it is also clear that more than 400 skilled publish the results of the value for money assessment of engineers and designers are being made redundant now the Siemens bid, it is not possible at this point, as I have because of the loss of the Thameslink contract. Also, I said, to publish such commercial details, because they know that the Department has been aware for some are commercially sensitive. The hon. Gentleman asked time, as I hope Ministers have, that Bombardier has what legal advice the Department obtained on changing made it crystal clear that if it did not get the Thameslink the invitation to tender. As I have made clear, we are contract, not only would the new jobs not be coming, legally bound by the criteria we inherited from the but those 400-odd would be the start of the process. It is previous Government, and those were thoroughly assessed not right for the Minister to pretend that all those jobs by our legal advisers. were going to go anyway. That is just not true. Chris Williamson: Will the Minister give way? Mrs Villiers: As I have said, whatever the reason for the job losses, it is important that we should work Mrs Villiers: No, I am sorry. I have a lot of points to together to help Derby in this difficult time. make, and I propose to make them. Chris Williamson: Will the Minister give way? My hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) rightly emphasised the benefits of open markets and highlighted the dangers that going down a protectionist Mrs Villiers: No. I am afraid I have only a few more route might have. The hon. Member for Birmingham, minutes, and a long list of points to get through. I want Erdington (Jack Dromey) talked about how the to try to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Government could use their £100 billion public procurement Amber Valley. programme to underpin economic recovery. Of course My hon. Friend was concerned that in some way the we will consider that as part of our growth review. Department for Transport discriminated against My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich Bombardier. Absolutely not. We fully respect the excellence (Mr Timpson) was concerned about the amount spent of the engineering facilities at Bombardier. We are on consultancy. The bulk of that happened under the determined that it should be judged on an impartial previous Government, but I agree that we need a more basis, so there is no question of any predisposition efficient approach to spending on consultancy in relation against Bombardier, or any discrimination. to procurement in the future. Since the general election Several hon. Members have expressed concern about the consultancy spend has been considerably reduced. the combination of long-term funding and maintenance It is important to recognise that Bombardier, alongside and whether we should take the approach to procurement other train manufacturers and train and component in the future of judging each procurement on its merits. supply chain businesses in the UK, will have the opportunity It was not possible to sever those elements of the bid to bid for a range of contracts in the future. We are process from the criteria we inherited from the previous reforming the franchise system to incentivise train operators Government. They combined long-term maintenance to invest in new rolling stock. We have given the go-ahead and funding, and it would not have been possible for us for the tube upgrades. We have secured funding for to sever those criteria and start again, for the reasons I Crossrail. We are going ahead with a consultation on have given. high-speed rail. Bombardier is a highly successful global My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley thought company, with a proven record of winning big contracts that there was a case for leaving more procurement for its Derby works and elsewhere. It has done so in the decisions to the train operators and the rail industry. I past; we see no reason why it should not be well placed agree on that. He also asked about the margin between to do so again in the future. In recent years it secured Siemens and Bombardier. I am afraid that that is orders for nearly 1,400 carriages for London Underground’s commercially confidential at the moment and I cannot sub-surface line, 376 for the Victoria line and 232 for share it with the House. It would not be in the interest London Overground. It has been shortlisted for the of Bombardier, Siemens or the taxpayer for me to do Crossrail order. Its striking success rate on tube-related that. Several hon. Members, including my hon. Friend contracts must put it in a strong position for when and the shadow Secretary of State, have expressed London Underground next needs to procure new carriages, concern about the Siemens bogie. That has been evaluated. which, thanks to the securing of funding for the tube The bogie is based on proven technology used elsewhere. upgrade, will happen in due course. Only a few weeks Its development began in 2007 and it is expected to have ago, Bombardier won a £354 million signalling contract undergone about 1 million miles of testing before it for London Underground. goes into passenger service. As to concerns about peaks For all those contracts we are determined to ensure and troughs in rolling stock orders, yes, we need to that domestic suppliers are treated entirely impartially consider that in future, and we shall do so as part of our and given a fair chance of getting them. The fact that consideration of the McNulty review. the coalition Government have secured funding for My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire such a major programme of capacity enhancement will (Pauline Latham) spoke passionately and movingly about result in major opportunities, not just for Bombardier the impact of job losses. She asked about a meeting but for other train component and supply chain with the Prime Minister, and he has asked the Business manufacturing businesses in this country. Following its Secretary to meet Councillor Philip Hickson of Derby nomination, for example, as the preferred bidder for the city council. In answer to the question of the hon. intercity express programme contract, Hitachi has 25WH Train-building Industry 12 JULY 2011 26WH announced that it is locating its train manufacturing Housing Market Renewal services for Europe at Newton Aycliffe in County Durham. That will provide significant opportunities for UK 11 am component manufacturing. As has been said, if the Siemens Thameslink bid proceeds to conclusion, it will Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): involve the creation of 2,000 jobs in the UK. It has I am delighted to have secured this debate on behalf of indicated that it intends to use elements of the UK all hon. Members who share my concern about the supply chain to supply its bid. cancellation of the housing market renewal initiative, This has been a difficult debate, and it is a difficult and the terrible impact that that will have on those time for Derby. We are determined to help. affected by it. I shall give an overview of the problems faced by all pathfinder areas and highlight how the Chris Williamson: Will the Minister at least give an cancellation of HMRI will affect some areas of Liverpool. undertaking to take legal advice on the possibility of The Government’s plans for house building over the calling in the decision and reviewing it, with the possibility course of this Parliament can at best be described as of reversing it, as has happened with previous contracts? conservative. Between 2005 and 2010, Labour delivered 256,000 affordable homes in England, including 142,000 Mrs Villiers: We have looked extensively at the contract additional homes for social rent. Over the five years of and have done the numbers very carefully. As I have this Parliament, however, the Government are planning said, it is not legally possible for us to rip it up. We need to deliver only 150,000 affordable homes—100,000 fewer to ensure that in future, Bombardier and all our domestic than Labour achieved in the previous Parliament. HMRI suppliers will be well placed to compete effectively for was originally envisaged as a 10 to 15-year programme, bids and competitions that will be made possible by the but it was abruptly ended eight years in, when many of coalition’s commitment to investing in our railways. the schemes were reaching fruition. In March, an Audit Commission report estimated that the HMRI had generated about £5.8 billion of economic activity across the UK, which created 19,000 jobs in the construction and related industries, and sustained more than 2,600 jobs in the construction industry each year. Thousands of homes have been built and more than 108,000 have been refurbished. At the neighbourhood level, HMRI has helped to stabilise market conditions and provided a strong sign of change. Private sector resources have been leveraged in to the projects, and more than 15,000 new homes have been built in areas where no properties had been built for a long time. In Merseyside the pathfinder scheme known as NewHeartlands delivered 2,297 new builds, refurbished 18,263 homes and made 65% of its planned acquisitions. Shelter, the housing and homelessness charity, said: “The Housing Market Renewal pathfinders have brought much needed investment to parts of the North and Midlands experiencing low demand for housing and long term economic decline.” The decision to cut £120 million of funding and to end HMRI has been tough on Liverpool. There are thousands of people on the housing waiting list across the city. Many families live in overcrowded or unsuitable homes. The decision puts an end to the good work being done to alleviate these problems and makes future work difficult, and it is clear from the mixed messages coming from the Minister for Housing and Local Government—I am sorry that he is not here today—that there is no clear exit strategy. Rather than putting in place a phased withdrawal that would allow local authorities to manage the axing of funds, the Government have stopped the scheme dead, which has created confusion, uncertainty and bitter disappointment. The lack of strategy is evident, given the situation that the Government have left behind.

Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this most important debate. Will she join me in raising the fact that other areas must have suffered, including areas such as Stoke-on-Trent? The Renew North Staffordshire pathfinder scheme cleared many properties in that area and demolished great 27WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 28WH

[Robert Flello] Merseyside, east Lancashire, north Staffordshire, Hull and Teesside. I welcome that announcement as a first swathes of the city, often taking a long time to piece step. Liverpool has been comparatively lucky by being together the ownership of the various lots of land. It able to access some of that money, but the reality is that was ready to start the next phase when, all of a sudden, such figures are a drop in the ocean when compared it found itself with derelict land and nothing to build. with the scale of the challenge. The money will not deal with all the outstanding housing renewal problems in Luciana Berger: We have had similar experiences in some the neighbourhoods in Liverpool. Liverpool. It is devastating for the cities and towns I refer to an example in Anfield, which is in the concerned, as there are literally acres of flattened land constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, with nothing on them. Near Smithdown road in Picton, Walton (Steve Rotheram), who I am sure will reinforce there is nothing but green-grey grass, but people know the point. In his constituency, areas in phases 6 and 7 do that houses once stood there. not meet the transition fund criteria for occupancy, and In Kensington and Picton, which are two wards in there is a requirement that the fund should not open my constituency, some dilapidated housing stock sits up new phases of redevelopment. However, people are mostly empty and boarded up. Some people live in what stuck in those areas. The funding decision also leaves have become ghost towns. Eight out of nine houses are four pathfinder areas with no extra funding and no unoccupied. The people still living in those areas feel clear idea of why that is. desperate and let down. They put up with living in Will the Under-Secretary of State for Communities decaying conditions because they were promised that and Local Government, the hon. Member for Hazel they would be rehoused. People across Liverpool knew Grove (Andrew Stunell), share with us how the figure of that if they lived in an area in a certain phase—one of £30 million was arrived at? How was the decision reached phases 1 to 8—at some point they would be moved out over which pathfinder areas are to receive money from their housing and the area would be regenerated. They the transition fund? What were the criteria and who set now face the disappointment of having to stay. them? What support, if any, does he plan for those If progress is not made on demolition, the shell of pathfinder areas not eligible for the transition fund? these properties will rapidly deteriorate, and that will The transition fund does not address the fact that a increase the risk of collapse, which could endanger large amount has already been spent on pathfinder residents. Worse still, the land next to the residents lies schemes—thus far for nothing. We have seen £2.2 billion idle. As I said, new homes were meant to be built there, of taxpayers’ money invested in housing market renewal but that will not happen because the funding has been since 2002. What assurances can the Under-Secretary withdrawn. The majority of people remaining in the give that these areas will not regress, and that money clearance areas are vulnerable, elderly or have health already spent will not be wasted? problems. Residents would like to stay in the local area, It is not only taxpayers’ money that is in danger of but they do not have that choice because there are no being wasted. Ros Groves is chair of the Anfield and new or alternative houses. Breckfield housing and physical regeneration group This is happening not only in Liverpool, as I am sure in Liverpool. The Minister for Housing and Local we will hear from other hon. Members, because it is a Government—I keep referring to him because I was familiar story in the other pathfinder areas. The Audit expecting him to answer the debate—was in Liverpool Commission report into HMRI states: when he announced the transition fund in May. Ros Groves said that he “At this stage there are too many isolated and vulnerable “went on about how we need to get private sector involvement residents still living in poor housing”. and I said: ‘We’ve got that. We’ve had £207 million spent here by Mike Gahagan, the former chair of the Transform businesses. What do you do with that? Just throw it in the bin?’ South Yorkshire pathfinder, has said that And he didn’t have an answer because there is no answer.” “the sudden termination in HMR funding has left many families I hope that the Under-Secretary will be able to answer in distressed surroundings”. that today. Stuart Whyte, the former chair of Gateway Hull and As well as a clear lack of a strategy on how to deal East Riding of Yorkshire pathfinder highlighted the with residents living in pathfinder areas, there has been fact that the areas have increasingly become a magnet complete confusion over what funds will be available to for crime and antisocial behaviour. finish the planned development in these areas. In October These residents are already vulnerable and living in 2010, the Housing Minister said: these areas for an extended period is likely to have a “We will complete all the committed HMR schemes, and we major impact on their health and well-being. Empty will then roll the funding up into the regional development fund homes attract the theft of valuable metals and lead. The to continue the good work.”—[Official Report, 21 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 1114.] other weekend, I visited Ben Kwonko, a constituent who lives in an area where eight out of nine homes are That gave hope to pathfinder areas that they would be tinned-up and unoccupied. His home is damp and lead able to maintain funding for these projects—albeit on a has been stolen from his roof numerous times. He and reduced scale, but still at a reasonable level. However, his family are desperate to move out of that property, the Minister’s commitment was left in tatters just over but he has no choice. There is also an increased likelihood two weeks ago when Lord Heseltine, the chair of the of arson attacks in these areas. independent advisory panel for the regional growth fund, told the Communities and Local Government The Minister might have realised the damage that Committee: ending HMRI has done to these areas, as he announced “The regional growth fund is not in any way a replacement for in May that a £30 million transition fund would be the housing market renewal funding...There is no way in which made available to the five most deprived HMRI areas— we are doing housing renewal.” 29WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 30WH

That is a complete rejection of what the Minister said to the economic benefits and multiplier effects of having the House in October and of what he told my hon. those houses built in all the areas. The knock-on effects Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton and me in a would benefit the NHS, and people would find work meeting in Liverpool. He gave false hope to those in and also live in better areas. As I said, there would be Liverpool and other pathfinder areas that a solution many more local construction jobs. On an annual basis, may be found. there would be nearly 3,000 sustainable jobs in the We are left with a lot of unanswered questions, so I construction industry, and such jobs are much needed hope that the Under-Secretary will answer some of up and down the country. Although it is clear that the them today. What discussions has he or his colleague HMRI has ended, there is still a window of opportunity— had with Lord Heseltine regarding using the regional albeit one that is rapidly closing—to build on the work growth fund to develop the HMRI pathfinder areas? done under the initiative and to utilise the expertise and When was the decision made not to allow regional partnerships that were built up during the course of the growth fund money to be used for housing? Who made scheme. it and when did the Housing Minister find out? Did the In Merseyside, all the NewHeartlands authorities are Under-Secretary or the Housing Minister know in advance trying to maintain momentum. Other sources of funding of Lord Heseltine’s Select Committee appearance that to finish regenerating these neighbourhoods are being he was going to veto the use of regional growth fund thoroughly investigated. I have spent several hours meeting money for housing market renewal? When the Housing the housing market renewal teams at the council, and Minister gave his commitment to the House in October, they are dedicated to doing everything they possibly can had an agreement been reached to provide funding to leverage in that funding. from the regional growth fund, which has subsequently Liverpool is actively market testing refurbishment-based been breached, or was he hoping that the funding could solutions for three of its neighbourhoods—Arnside be used, but had not yet received concrete assurances road, Granby Four Streets and Webster Triangle. Initial that it would? indications are that there may be interest from partners In addition to explaining how the Government made to deliver in some of those areas. Meanwhile, in the the decisions that have got us into this mess, I hope that renewal areas, new homes are being delivered by lead the Under-Secretary will finally give us some clarity and developers and are popular. I live on a former housing provide an indication of how we can move forward and market renewal site. Examples of other such sites include complete the housing projects, which is ultimately what the Parks in Anfield and the former Easby estate, both we all want to see. I believe that the Housing Minister is of which are in north Liverpool, where historically interested in finding a solution. there has been little or no private sector house building. Will the Under-Secretary commit to working with Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): councils such as Liverpool and local communities to I am here simply out of interest. Will the hon. Lady give develop plans and identify funding for developing the us some indication of how much money is needed to pathfinder areas? So far, little support has been extended complete the projects in the way in which she is talking by the Government to make up for the complete cut in about? HMRI funding. The reality is that while councils are doing their best to find innovative solutions to this Luciana Berger: The transition fund that was announced problem, their efforts are a drop in the ocean compared was £30 million. If the projects had continued in Liverpool with the level of funding previously committed under alone, £120 million more would have been needed over HMRI, so they need more support from the Government. the next seven years. However, there are another eight As Elaine Stewart, the head of housing renewal services pathfinder areas. We expected some scaling back, but at Liverpool council, has said: there are areas in my constituency and others across the “We have to forge more relationships with the private sector pathfinder areas in which people are living in dilapidated although, in housing market failure areas, private sector rules housing. Those people were supposed to be decanted in don’t apply and we have to be realistic about the amount of a few years’ time. Their properties were expected to be private sector funding coming in. Without some public sector regenerated and rebuilt, thus bringing much needed funding, it won’t work.” jobs to local areas and improving people’s surroundings, At the final oral evidence session of the Communities as they all deserve. and Local Government Committee inquiry into regeneration, the Minister for Housing and Local Robert Flello: On that point, let me just say that while Government hinted that the Government may bring £120 million might sound like a large amount—indeed forward new funding. He said: it is a very large amount for just Liverpool alone—does “This is not a policy launch, but I have an idea in mind where my hon. Friend accept that if the cuts were not being communities will be able to access further sums of money through made so deep or so fast, it would not be such an issue? a local process which will enable them to regenerate in ways that Does she also accept that the economic benefit to not suit them locally.” just Liverpool but the country would be huge and I would love to hear about those proposals. It is a shame would far outweigh the investment required? that the Housing Minister is not here to tell us more about what he meant. However, until the Minister comes Luciana Berger: I thank my hon. Friend for his forward with something other than an idea—he did helpful intervention. Of course, if the cuts had not been refer to it only as an idea—we will not be any closer to a so deep or fast, we could have had that money. As I solution. said, it was another seven years before the HMRI was On behalf of all my affected constituents and all due to be completed. I do not have the figures in front those across Liverpool and the other pathfinder areas of me, but I have seen some astounding numbers detailing who live in intolerable conditions, I urge the Under-Secretary 31WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 32WH

[Luciana Berger] detail being given about what will be put in its place. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree has to go back to his Department and revisit the decision to outlined the concerns about the regional growth fund. end HMRI. Some £790 million has already been committed There was an assumption that that fund would provide in Merseyside. We want a solution that will mean an some of the capital investment that we needed, but that end to thousands of people being forced to live in did not happen. out-of-date, decaying and dangerous housing. We are now left, once again, with the huge disparity I thank you, Mr Gale, for your stewardship this between the parts of the UK where there is no economic morning. I hope that the Under-Secretary will address failure whatsoever and those parts where there is economic the issues that I have raised, and I am sure that my hon. failure and where we are trying to remedy that failure. Friends will raise other concerns during the rest of the What we desperately need is a cocktail of measures, debate. whereby everything works alongside everything else to get economic investment, restructuring and strategic Several hon. Members rose— planning in line with what local communities want, which means the homes where people live. We need Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair): Order. I imagine that homes side by side with jobs. Mrs Riordan will wish to call the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman at 12 o’clock. A significant number of Members I know that the Minister cares passionately about the wish to take part in this debate so, once again, brevity is issue, but it is wrong that the funding was removed just the order of the day. like that with no time for people to prepare for its removal, and it is also wrong that the transitional funding of about £30 million, which would allow only 11.18 am for the further demolition of properties, should have Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): It is a been put in place without addressing the real capital pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gale. I needs for investment in our areas. It might seem to the am sure that you will give us all an opportunity to Minister that the demolition of the remaining acquired contribute to this important debate, which I congratulate sites is the best use of that transition fund of £30 million. my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree However, if we consider the ongoing costs of vacant (Luciana Berger) on securing. The point that I want to sites, which have no maintenance budgets whatsoever, it get across to the Minister, who has a strong belief in is not the right way forward to restrict the criteria on local government, is that the housing market renewal how that transition funding can be spent in the five programme, of which north Staffordshire was one recipient, most distressed areas to paying for demolition. Will he was an important means by which capital funding came work with those five areas, which are represented here to areas where there was economic failure. The whole today, and officials in those areas? More importantly, programme was intended to restore the balance between will he look in a cross-cutting way at other Government the south-east and other places where there is no economic policies? When he replies to the debate, I hope that he failure and areas such as ours, which, for well-documented will indicate to hon. Members who are present today reasons, need to deal with issues such as absentee landlords. how the Government’s post-comprehensive spending There are whole blocks of homes the purpose for which review policies on housing market renewal relate to the has now gone. Government’s economic policies on local enterprise It has been well documented that in the early stages zones and to the work that is coming out of the Treasury. of the housing market renewal programme many MPs In Stoke-on-Trent, we hope that the Minister’s had real concerns; indeed, many MPs in Stoke-on-Trent Department will support our application to establish a had concerns. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke- local enterprise zone. If that local enterprise zone goes on-Trent South (Robert Flello), Mark Fisher, the former ahead, it will border one of the areas for which we are MP for Stoke-on-Trent Central, and I challenged the seeking these transitional payments for housing market officials who were introducing that programme in the renewal, which is the Middleport area of my constituency. city, because it did not seem to us that they were The same point applies to other areas on the periphery working with or alongside local communities, or that of what we hope will be the local enterprise zone. Will there was a master plan to consider the kind of bottom-up he look at how the investment that we need in housing regeneration that we wanted for our communities. In in those areas can be provided—perhaps through a the early days, the officials’ proposals were all about the ring-fenced amount of money—to help us to deal with large-scale demolition of a large number of houses, the absolute void that has been left by the Government which had no place in our local regeneration strategies. pulling the plug on finances for housing market renewal? Through careful, long-term lobbying, we did our best I want to discuss the regional growth fund. It is to change that approach. Across Stoke-on-Trent, there extraordinary that the Government have indicated that was a sea change where the housing pathfinder programme what has been taken away with one hand will be provided took place. In some places, the change was too little, too with the other through applications that meet the criteria late, but in other places there was a major change. The for the regional growth fund. Those of us who have programme was late in getting off the ground in north attended meetings with Lord Heseltine know that the Staffordshire—it was about three years late in getting regional growth fund is already stretched and that it will together all the different proposals—so we were behind not be ring-fenced in any way for housing investment, where we should have been. Once the programme got but without the homes to go alongside the jobs that we off the ground, however, it started to make an impact. hope will come from the regional growth fund, people The problem that we now face is the sudden and in our areas will not be able to get back on their feet in unprecedented withdrawal of funding by the Government the way that was envisaged when the housing market in the comprehensive spending review, with no clear renewal programme was first introduced. 33WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 34WH

There is another cross-cutting issue, which is the local residents in Stoke-on-Trent, Liverpool, Birmingham government finance relocalisation of business rates. It is and Sandwell, and I was struck by their enormous a huge issue. If the Minister thinks that what the enthusiasm and ambition. They were determined to see Treasury does about relocalisation of business rates and a reversal of the slow and painful decline in their the consultation about those plans that will take place neighbourhoods. throughout the summer recess—perhaps away from media attention—will have no bearing on areas where Robert Flello: My hon. Friend will no doubt recall we are fighting to get back economic prosperity after walking down the high street of what was Coalville and economic failure caused by structural reasons that we is now Weston Heights in Stoke-on-Trent and seeing the know only too well, I urge him to think again. Can he phenomenal transformation that was taking place to tell us how the proposal for the equalisation of business turn what was a very run-down estate into one where rates, and the giving of powers and funding to local people are still flocking to buy and rent properties. authorities to meet the genuine needs of their areas, will What a transformation that was, especially when combined have any chance of success when it appears that, as a with the other transformations in Stoke-on-Trent, such result of the coalition agreement, areas such as the City as the brand new hospital and the fantastic regeneration of London will carry on receiving huge amounts of of our schools, and what a damn shame that it has money? Such areas do not have economic failure—if ended. their money goes into the pot, they get to keep it for themselves—but what about areas such as Stoke-on-Trent, Mr Wright: I agree with my hon. Friend. Alongside which stand to lose money? Stoke-on-Trent stands to our hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North lose £26 million, which is on top of the £36 million in (Joan Walley), we are pushing on behalf of north local government funding that has already been taken Staffordshire. I remember seeing the huge ambition in away from our area by the CSR. that area, among others. It is worth going back to the basics of what HMR I have already been in touch with the Department for was trying to achieve. It was trying to stem and reverse Communities and Local Government about this issue, long-standing decline in areas characterised by acute but will the Minister ensure that his officials work with housing market failure. In many respects, that was due those of us who are on the ground and who are in touch to an imbalance of one particular type of property in with the local enterprise partnership, local authorities an area. For example, about 37% of all the housing and local communities to find, by some means or other, stock in the entire borough of Hartlepool—14,500 a way in which legitimate funding for legitimate regeneration properties—is terraced housing. On any measure, that and investment, which meets the needs of local communities is too much of one particular type of stock, so there is a that have been left stranded high and dry by the sudden need to rebalance the stock the town provides to decision to remove the money for housing market renewal residents—both now and in the future. That was true of and to allow transition funding only to be used for other HMR areas. demolition, can be provided? What struck me most when I had responsibility for In Middleport, the Prince’s Regeneration Trust has this matter—more fundamentally than acute housing now purchased the Middleport pottery; we have a Burslem market failure—was the disconnect between those areas master plan; and local people have a huge desire for and economic activity. The areas were blighted by low housing renewal. I ask the Minister to work with the skills and, often, virtually no employment. To succeed, I hon. Members here today, who care so much about felt that housing market renewal had to be linked explicitly their areas, to find a way forward. to economic success, and that was why, when I was able to announce in 2008-09 an extra £1 billion of funding 11.27 am for housing market renewal, I wanted to link it explicitly with the possibility of securing extra funding and with Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): It is a pleasure to injecting skills and employment into those areas, with a serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gale. I remember particular emphasis on apprenticeships for young people. with fond affection that you had to endure my ramblings It is also important to recognise that this was deliberately in Committee during the passage of the Housing and a long-term programme. Those areas in the north and Regeneration Act 2008, alongside your co-Chairman the midlands were built in the Victorian era to house at that time, my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle workers in heavy manufacturing industries. When those (Mr Benton), whose constituency, like mine, is a recipient industries declined in the post-war era, their economic of housing market renewal funding. I feel like we are all raison d’être was often lost, and areas have struggled to back together for a nice reunion. adapt. Those big social and economic changes cannot I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, be solved overnight, so HMR was deliberately a 15-year Wavertree (Luciana Berger) on securing this important programme to put those areas back on a sustainable debate on an issue that affects many thousands of footing. The abrupt cancellation of the programme, decent residents in the north and in the midlands. I have without any other suitable replacement, undoes all the a pathfinder project in my constituency. It extends good work that has been done, and sets those throughout the Teesside area and incorporates sites not neighbourhoods back decades, as my hon. Friend the only in Hartlepool, but in Gresham, Middlesbrough Member for Liverpool, Wavertree so eloquently said. and South Bank, which is in the borough of Redcar and More taxpayers’ money than was originally planned for Cleveland. HMR will be needed to sort out the social and economic Between 2007 and 2009, I was the Minister in the problems caused by the cancellation of the programme. Department for Communities and Local Government Since 2006, for every pound of HMR funding in responsible for housing market renewal. I travelled across Teesside, we have levered in an additional £1.06 of other all the HMR areas when I was a Minister. I met public sector investment and 61p of private sector 35WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 36WH

[Mr Iain Wright] Through all their policies, the Government are damaging the communities in my constituency and the wider investment. For Hartlepool in particular, the figures are north-east. Economic policy, social and welfare initiatives, actually much better. Hartlepool has received about and public sector cuts all disproportionately affect my £4.5 million of HMR funding between 2006 and 2011, area and focus on neighbourhoods that least have the but that has been complemented by £13.7 million of tools to battle those challenges. Areas such as Hartlepool, other public funding and an astonishing £20 million Middlesbrough and Redcar and Cleveland are less likely of funding from the private sector, so that is more than anywhere in the country to be able to withstand money coming in from private companies as a result of economic recession and public sector cuts. HMR was public sector investment. As many as 2,500 private starting to turn round decades of neglect, economic sector jobs in the construction industry have been created inactivity and housing failure to provide neighbourhoods or safeguarded as a result of that initiative. If private with the housing and hope that they deserve. The companies see the Government losing faith in those Government have taken that away without putting anything areas and failing to maintain investment, it is difficult to in its place. For the first time in many years in this envisage how private sector money will stay and grow country, we have no dedicated urban regeneration funding there. programme. I hope that the Minister will reflect on That is frustrating, because Hartlepool has shown what his Department has done, and do something for how good progress can be made. We have seen the my constituents and other decent residents across the complete redevelopment of Trinity square by a good midlands and the north of England. Hartlepool house builder, Yuill Homes, and it is now a thriving and welcoming area in the centre of town. At 11.36 am the Headway site close to Chester road, 280 terraced properties have been demolished and work on 170 high- Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to quality, mixed-tenure homes has begun. A second of serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gale, and I congratulate four planned phases is now progressing. The development my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree agreement for the Headway site made provision for (Luciana Berger) on securing a debate on an important raising employment, skills levels and training opportunities, issue to my constituents, the axing of HMR. including the provision of apprenticeship places. HMR was overall a successful scheme, although I Last month, alongside Bob Farrow, a long-standing admit there were some problems, which I will address tenant of the Belle Vue area, I opened the first modern later. I want to address how the ending of the scheme homes in the area, which replace 50 pre-fab and terraced affects my constituency and low-demand areas; some of properties. Bob has lived his entire life in the Belle Vue the misleading statements put out by the Government; area, having been born in Borrowdale street. With other and the Government’s £30 million transitional fund. residents, he has been closely involved in the planning Let us be clear where we are now: facing human of the new development. It is a myth—if the Minister is misery. People were given assurances that the HMR red going to suggest this—that the programme has had a line around their neighbourhood would be a 15-year top-down approach. It has been bottom-up, with residents programme. It was not to be one that would first actively involved in planning the future of the areas. At encourage disinvestment and degeneration and then, at the opening of the new homes, Bob said: the bottom of that regeneration trough, have the funding “I knew when I first saw Housing Hartlepool’s plans for the pulled to leave streets abandoned, in the worst cases new Belle Vue estate that it was going to be wonderful, but these looking like ghettos. fantastic homes have exceeded expectations. Hartlepool residents The regeneration did have cross-party support. The have been closely following the progress of the new homes and it Minister himself was once a fan and, from reading is great to see them become a reality.” Hansard, I note that he was a supporter. The Prime In the Perth, Hurworth and Grainger streets part of Minister made unequivocal promises back in 2006, Dyke House, a compulsory purchase order is in process, when he took the then shadow Cabinet on a visit to meaning that several hundred residents, who have been Liverpool. While walking along some of the terraced living with uncertainty, are now seeing some progress. streets, he observed, Credit for that must be given to Damien Wilson, Hartlepool “Run-down areas become a magnet for dumping and littering.” borough council’s assistant director of regeneration, He laid out this Government’s political ambitions, saying who alongside me, the three ward councillors—Mary of regeneration, Fleet, Stephen Thomas and Linda Shields—and officers, Amy Waller from the council and Helen Rooney from “It’s a huge task. I want the Conservative party to be the party of urban regeneration. The aim is to make our cities better places Housing Hartlepool, have been going to the Hartlepool for people to live in.” Rovers quoit club every Friday at 5 o’clock to keep residents up to date with developments. People rightly feel badly let down; that the Government and the Prime Minister have broken their promises. However, I am concerned that this progress of breathing That can be best summed up by Peter Latchford, the new life into disadvantaged areas is incomplete, and former chair of Birmingham and Sandwell pathfinder: that people will be left in limbo for years. As the Audit “I am particularly concerned at the message sent to people Commission stated in its review of HMR in Teesside: living in complex and deprived areas when a programme like this “This is a particular risk…where so many schemes are at a is terminated so abruptly. In Birmingham and Sandwell, we relatively early stage. There are a number of areas where a large showed that the best results come from involving local people; number of properties have been acquired that are awaiting demolition. from investing in long-term relationships of trust; from holding This has the potential to leave communities living in a very poor ourselves properly to account locally. There is no better way to quality environment…The slowing down or stopping of interventions disillusion such people, who have seen a succession of ‘interventions’ will undermine commitments made to communities and damage come and go, than to pull the plug halfway through the promised community confidence in neighbourhoods.” period.” 37WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 38WH

HMR was successful; it made good progress in some Tees Valley had no overall control. It is not a Labour of the most deprived areas. That is according to the issue. In East Lancashire, Hyndburn’s Conservative council Audit Commission, Shelter and the chairs of the former was handing out full market value payments plus relocation pathfinder areas that oversaw the regeneration. The grants plus a cash handout of £30,000, and undertaking Audit Commission report published this March showed group repairs at £55,000 a property, which was more that the decision to abolish the housing market renewal than the full value. Significantly, the council never engaged programme was ill-advised. My hon. Friends the Members with estate agents or architects on added value or the for Liverpool, Wavertree and for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) redesign of properties, nor did it seek the best investment mentioned the benefits identified by the Audit Commission, value. I am told that in Liberal Democrat Pendle, £1 million, including £2.2 billion invested in the HMR programme not including acquisition, was spent converting eight since 2002, £5.8 billion in economic activity and 30,000 houses into four. Another issue is the lack of Government new property sites cleared. The HMR kept 19,000 jobs intervention in Liberal Democrat and Tory-controlled in the construction industry. In Newcastle Gateshead, councils. £60 million in HMR funds, along with contributions My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool mentioned from the council and the Homes and Communities top-down targets, another issue to which the Housing Agency, secured £400 million in private investment and Minister keeps referring. A pathfinder, as the name delivered more than 4,000 new homes. The Housing implies, is a housing programme in which local authorities Minister is keen to say that we need new homes, so he were told to find a path. There were no top-down should be aware of those facts. targets that anyone is aware of except the Housing I want to put on record the Audit Commission’s Minister, who said in a reply to my right hon. Friend the summary, as it is important: Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field): “The HMR programme is making a difference to the communities “Some pathfinder schemes were successful; however, others it serves, with fewer empty houses, reduced crime, and more jobs attracted controversy due to an over-reliance on demolition, in and training opportunities, especially in those neighbourhoods part encouraged by top-down government targets.”—[Official that are more advanced in their programmes.” Report, 20 January 2011; Vol. 521, c. 901W.] It goes on to discuss the Government’s current proposals for a £30 million transitional fund, essentially to fund The Housing Minister has made that assertion repeatedly. the evacuation of residents in what, in my opinion, is an Can the Minister here today name a single top-down attempt to remove the personal misery involved from target imposed under the HMR programme? I cannot the broadcast and news media in order to assist the and nor can anyone else—including the Housing Minister, Government politically.The Audit Commission’s summary who has failed to provide a single meaningful example says that so far. “the emphasis must be on completing current key interventions; Turning to my constituency, Hyndburn has unfunded not least to ensure that promises made to communities are met areas like those mentioned by my hon. Friends. The and to reduce the risk of previous investments being undermined future of Woodnook and Peel in Accrington is now by leaving a legacy of uncompleted projects. At this stage there unfunded, and I will assert to the Minister the sheer is…a significant risk that neighbourhood regeneration projects scale of the problem. Residents in the area were consulted stall, leaving communities living in a poor quality environment indefinitely.” in 2005 by the Conservative council. Plans were drawn up and presented that included details such as houses to There seems to be no exit strategy and a lot of waste. be demolished and trees to be planted. The Conservative The sudden withdrawal of funding has left local authorities council scrapped those plans and then went into “spend, unable to complete projects that were already under spend, spend” overdrive in West Accrington. In 2010, way. The Government should have considered a phased the council repeated the process, covering some 70 terraced withdrawal from the programme, and the scheme’s blocks with 15 houses a block, a considerable number management should not have been based on the five of properties. The hon. Member for Rossendale and reasons the Housing Minister trots out so frequently, all Darwen (Jake Berry) was courteous enough to visit last of which I will dismiss. month and recognised the true scale of the problem, but The first reason is deficit reduction. The Government the Housing Minister has yet to come through on his are ignoring the plight of the areas involved, the promises promise to visit Hyndburn and see the HMR-related made and the investment so far. As my hon. Friend the problems in Accrington. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) said, we had the opportunity not to introduce such a great Residents of 70 blocks in red-line areas believed that deficit reduction programme. We are going too far too their area would be regenerated, but since the cuts in the fast, and it is hurting our communities. The second comprehensive spending review and the axing of HMR, reason is future funding, to which I will come, and the the council has scaled back its plans to include just five £30 million in relief, particularly the regional growth blocks. In many blocks outside the area where transitional fund, which my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, money will be spent, occupancy rates are between 30% Wavertree discussed, and the new homes bonus, to and 80%. A press release from the Department for which the Housing Minister keeps returning. The third Communities and Local Government on 9 March this is waste, the fourth is top-down targets and the fifth is a year stated: conflation of over-supply and under-supply in housing “This coalition Government is committed to helping vulnerable markets. people and will not stand by when residents are stranded in derelict neighbourhoods through no fault of their own.” There has been waste in HMR areas, but I remind the Minister responding to the debate that of the five areas Five out of 75 blocks are being done and 70 blocks are for which he is providing funding, Hull, Liverpool and being neglected, some of which meet tier 1 and tier 2 Stoke were Liberal Democrat-controlled, East Lancashire criteria for the £30 million and have less than 50% was Conservative and Liberal Democrat-controlled, and occupancy. 39WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 40WH

[Graham Jones] new homes bonus will supplant HMR, yet figures distributed by the House of Commons Library show As my colleagues have said, £30 million is grossly that my constituency received just £62,000. Is the Minister insufficient. Four blocks that I have looked around aware that the average price for acquisition is £77,000 in make me think of the misery on those streets. Surely the West Accrington and £45,000 in East Accrington? The Minister must recognise that that cannot carry on. In difference is that one has had intervention and the other effect, even with the £30 million, we are abandoning has not. That £62,000 will barely buy one house. When people in HMR areas. Worse, although some blocks we find out that the new homes bonus will buy so few qualify for match funding under the Government scheme, bricks, stones and slates, is the Housing Minister not it is ridiculous to think that a local district council could embarrassed by his comment that the new homes bonus afford to match Government funding to deal with such will assist HMR areas? areas, even though they meet the criteria. We will be It is not only a Hyndburn issue. East Lancashire has abandoning and neglecting people who meet the criteria, some of the worst housing in the country, yet its five despite two previous plans. Such is the desperation of HMR local authorities are recipients of the lowest new the district council to do something that it is prepared homes bonus payments in the UK. All five feature in to say whatever it takes to the Government in order to the bottom 27 out of 350 authorities and receive less get any crumbs that might help people. The council than 90p per head in new homes bonus payments. knows that it is abandoning residents because it has Hyndburn receives 78p per head, while leafy Uttlesford been shorn of Government funding, and the private receives £9.30 and conservative Tewkesbury £6.47. How sector does not want to know. We risk facing blight is that fair? How is that consistent with the Housing compensation notices. Minister’s extravagant funding claims? The Housing Minister conflates over-supply and under- Given that there are more properties than people, it is supply, trotting it out as a reason for the shortage of no good the Minister saying that we will be rewarded housing in the UK. He said on 17 January: for filling empty homes and that there is an empty “The housing market renewal programme was responsible for homes budget. How? How will we get people into those demolishing a large number of homes—so many that there are houses? Empty properties are a revolving door. The fewer affordable homes after the 13 years of the previous Government Housing Minister is making ridiculous arguments. I than there were when they got into power in 1997.”—[Official presume he is suggesting that people leave delightful Report, 17 January 2011; Vol. 521, c. 535.] Tewkesbury and Uttlesford, where they want to live and A conflation of the south-east and the north-west is where there is high demand, and move to Woodnook, imaginary and unhelpful, as it belittles the truth. There Peel or Accrington, where there is little or no demand. are more houses than people in significant parts of the When he makes those generic comments, I would like north. Is the Minister not aware that Liverpool’s population him to explain how he will square that circle. used to be 1 million but is now nearer 450,000? East Crime hot spots and human misery are key issues. Lancashire’s population has fallen. There are more Families remain trapped in deserted streets where projects houses than people; demand is low. have been abandoned. Those areas attract crime, with Is the Housing Minister so lost from his brief as to be several experiencing arson attacks, which makes it very unaware that there are 750,000 empty properties, most dangerous for those living there. Stuart Whyte, the chair of them in the north? People do not want those homes, of Gateway Hull and East Riding of Yorkshire pathfinder, the private sector does not want them and hard-pressed said: councils have no money to deal with them. Is he really “The areas have increasingly become a magnet for crime and suggesting that the cure for low demand is for people anti-social behaviour. Beyond this human misery the sudden from the south-east to move to the north? If so, is that withdrawal of funding has a major impact on the willingness of official Government policy, and what is he doing about the private sector to invest in the areas.” it? That is what he seems to be suggesting. How else will Mike Gahagan, former chair of Transform South Yorkshire we fill those houses? If not, he should refrain from pathfinder, said that suggesting that there are more people than houses, for “the sudden termination in HMR funding has left many families that embarrasses his own position. in distressed surroundings”. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree The Government have an obligation, and forcing touched on the regional growth fund. The Housing local councils to accept liability will not make the Minister told the House of Commons one thing that problem go away, particularly in lower-tier district councils, seems to be totally untrue, and he needs to address the which cannot raise the finance. The Liberal Democrat fact that he has misled the House. As my hon. Friend leader of Burnley council, Charlie Briggs, said: said, the chair of the regional growth fund said that it “£30 million remains insufficient to meet the area’s needs. We will not accept funding bids, so for a long time those need a policy and funding that gives us a bridge to Mr Shapps’ communities were led to believe that there would be a new world. We are in touching distance of a revitalised housing future, but there is none. I am sure the Housing Minister market. It will be disgraceful if the government now pulls the rug will be haunted by his words: on us and, more importantly, our communities.” “We will complete all the committed HMR schemes, and we That is a Liberal Democrat leader—it does not even will then roll the funding up into the regional development fund come from the Opposition. to continue the good work”—[Official Report, 27 October 2010; The Government are nowhere on regeneration. Their Vol. 517, c. 1114.] own document, “Regeneration to enable growth”, is an I want to address a second point that the Housing embarrassing three pages long, followed by some cut- Minister touched on—the new homes bonus—because and-pasted tables. Is that their position on regeneration— it is not only on the regional growth fund that he has three pages? When the Prime Minister visited Liverpool, misled the public. He has repeatedly confirmed that the he put Lord Heseltine in charge of regeneration, stating: 41WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 42WH

“I am delighted to be here and announce the setting up of a cocktail of disadvantage and marginalisation. I have Cities Task Force which Heseltine has agreed to chair. He has a spent more than two decades working hard for Liverpool, great record in helping with urban regeneration and is a great and I am determined to continue that fight here today. friend of Liverpool’s.” In the 12 pathfinder areas, there was demonstrable Questioned at last week’s Select Committee on Communities market failure in the housing sector and the £2.2 billion and Local Government, Lord Heseltine had this to say housing market renewal initiative essentially recognised on regeneration: there is a paper out on regeneration; it what we needed to do to tackle poor housing conditions. “is called ‘Going for Growth’ or something.” Despite some justifiable criticism that it was not always It is actually called, “Regeneration to enable growth”. It sufficiently focused or sufficiently geographically specific is clear that the Government have abandoned regeneration to meet Liverpool’s needs, it started to address one of and HMR. Those the Prime Minister has made responsible the multiplicities of interconnected problems that areas for it know so little and the Government do not care such as my constituency face. It was housing market enough to do something about it. Perhaps the Minister failure that created neighbourhoods with a large number has recognised that the Government have conveyed of vacancies, owners trapped in negative equity and the confusion and misinformation, and will eventually come unwelcome attention of speculators. I concede that the back to the nub of the issue. The problem will not go scheme was not perfect, but, much like the future jobs away. fund, it was at least a programme to address specific In closing, I note that last Tuesday the Housing needs. For that reason, moderate reform rather than Minister announced that he would look at a new fund. radical abolition would have been the sensible thing to My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool has put the do, but, no, not for this Government. questions—where is that new fund and what will it do? Despite what I am sure were its best intentions, the Will it include the existing HMR areas? Will it be part previous Lib Dem city council in Liverpool got things of a strategic plan including public and private finance? disastrously wrong, and now the Liberal Democrats Crucially, in my constituency, will it be more than the and their Tory partners are trying to finish us off embarrassing £62,000 the Government provided in the completely. Instead of taking a break, as they did with new homes bonus fiasco? I close my comments there, the health care reforms, to consider all the options Mr Gale. Thank you. available, the coalition Government have simply turned off the regeneration tap in areas such as Walton. In this Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair): In the light of that very Chamber, only two weeks ago, I led a debate on the lengthy contribution, the Front Benchers have indicated construction sector and highlighted the damage that the that they are willing to curtail their speeches slightly. scrapping of HMR and other initiatives was doing to Mr Rotheram, you have about seven minutes. the industry. It is generally accepted that HMR alone has generated £5.8 billion-worth of economic activity 11.55 am and created 19,000 construction jobs. So the Government’s decision to scrap HMR was devastating not only for Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): It is a residents trapped in properties in areas that look like pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first they have been bombed, but for the construction industry time, Mr Gale. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member in general. It would not have been so bad if the Government for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) on securing had recognised the serious socio-economic problems of the debate and my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn HMR areas, but instead they have once again hit the (Graham Jones) on tenaciously pursuing the issue of most deprived parts of the country hardest. housing market renewal. Government Members are desperate to blame the Hon. Members will, I hope, be aware of early-day previous Labour Government by using the tired old motion 1970 on housing market renewal, which I sponsored mantra that it is all our fault, but the economic argument not only because it affects huge swathes of my constituency, is that for every £1 invested in construction, £3 is but because we need to secure a fair deal for all the generated and a further £2 is generated in the wider former HMR areas. The Chancellor once told us that economy. So, instead of paying benefits to building we are all this together, and perhaps that is partly true in workers who are desperate for jobs but who are forced this case—at least, “we” on Labour Benches representing to sit at home, the Government could have invested in ordinary, working-class constituencies might be in this construction to ensure a return on their investment and together, but certainly not “we”, as in the royal “we”, the creation of jobs and apprenticeships. The Government representing leafy suburban areas such as Tatton, Witney chose not to do that; instead, they chose to cut and run. and South West Surrey. It is disappointing that the Minister for Housing and Local Government is not responding this morning to our serious questions—metaphorically speaking, this is [MRS LINDA RIORDAN in the Chair] not the first time that a Lib Dem has taken a bullet for Despite the unbelievable transformation of our city his Tory master. The Minister will be keen to lay the during 13 years of Labour Government, Liverpool’s blame squarely at the door of the previous Labour socio-economic problems are common knowledge and Government. However, whether or not there was money have been touched on by my hon. Friends. The problems in the Exchequer, there appears to be an ideological are disproportionately concentrated in north Liverpool motive for this callous and cynical decision, which has and their consequences correspondingly magnified. There caused so much distress in areas such as Liverpool. is a complex and historical mix of issues, such as low educational attainment, a low skills base, high welfare 12.1 pm dependency, poor housing, low or unskilled and often Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): Thank casual employment, and poverty of aspiration. Those you, Mrs Riordan, for your chairmanship—albeit rather factors have made for a potent, self-perpetuating, cyclical briefly—of the debate. I draw hon. Members’ attention 43WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 44WH

[Alison Seabeck] bids in the first round of bidding with one in Hull and one in Wakefield, but since then the emphasis has to the entry in the register made by my right hon. clearly changed. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich It is telling that the Localism Bill does not mention (Mr Raynsford) in which I have an indirect interest. I the importance of regeneration to some of our poorest congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, communities. However, let us be honest. That is not the Wavertree (Luciana Berger) on securing the debate. It Government’s vision for the new powers that the Bill has been marked by excellent contributions and a strength will introduce. The bids already in for neighbourhood of feeling expressed by my hon. Friends, whose constituents forums support the view that those powers are largely are most affected by the Government’s complete volte-face for affluent areas in the south-east or in the suburbs of on funding for the housing market renewal programme. our major towns. Neighbourhood forums are not being The Minister should not be surprised by the anger set up in Hyndburn, for example. Perhaps those marooned and frustration voiced today, when the messages from local residents should be thinking about setting up a his colleagues indicate yet again that the left hand does neighbourhood forum in order to try and have a say in not know what the right hand is doing. The decision to how their community might be shaped in the future—not, cut half the money promised by the Government at the I hope, under a Tory Government. Dispatch Box by the Minister for Housing and Local Why did the former pathfinder chairs feel the need to Government as recently as October 2010 has been press the case for the full £60 million to remain committed? devastating. Many hon. Members have commented on They know, because they have worked on the ground, his absence today. I can tell hon. Members that, as we just how important it is to rebalance and invest in these speak, he is busy tweeting about holding a round table communities. They also know the cost of not proceeding on social mobility. In that round table, I hope that he is and the waste of investment that has already been put talking about HMR and the impact of his policies on in. Perhaps the Minister should read his own Department’s social mobility. discussion papers in which it is clear that in order to It is worth noting and repeating the precise words tackle worklessness the lack of aspiration needs to be that the Minister for Housing and Local Government dealt with. Part of that is about people feeling valued. used: Someone’s home and their wider environment play a “We will complete all the committed HMR schemes, and we significant role in that. Let us imagine waking up every will then roll the funding up into the regional development fund morning in a semi-derelict landscape, where all the to continue the good work.”—[Official Report, 21 October 2010; community facilities and local shops are closed. It is Vol. 516, c. 1114.] almost impossible to conceive how dispiriting and Is that not pretty unequivocal? He then confirmed the demoralising that must be. If the Government are serious position in a letter to local authorities, in which he said: about the private sector stepping in to support new jobs, “we will also provide access to the Regional Growth Fund to fund they need the conditions for that to happen. The private capital projects which could support housing growth”. sector will not move into derelict sites where no one, including their potential workers, wants to live. There I suppose we should be getting used to Ministers saying needs to be some pump-priming. one thing in Parliament one day and then changing it the next. Most recently in fact, just a couple of weeks My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool ago in a debate on social housing in this Chamber, the (Mr Wright)—a former very respected Housing Minister, Minister for Housing and Local Government made a who understands the nature of the problem—set out number of statements that he has subsequently had to clearly the reasoning behind the scheme and, most correct or elaborate on. There were seven such instances importantly, the economic benefits. The Government in all, including one policy change. I hope that the have taken a number of decisions that have impacted Minister responding today will not find himself having seriously on house building, regeneration and, as we to come back with a stream of corrections. There is a have heard, the construction industry. This Government’s question of competence here. decision arbitrarily to select just five areas for continued investment and to allow councils to ignore the regional It is therefore a shame that Lord Heseltine, who has house building targets resulted directly or indirectly in been tasked with heading up the independent approval plans for more than 200,000 homes being dropped. panel for bids to the regional growth fund, does not appear to be singing from the same hymn sheet. Perhaps My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree he is as confused by the Government’s constant chopping has highlighted the problems and has mentioned some and changing as the rest of us. When he was pressed by of the excellent work using previous funding to try to the Select Committee on Communities and Local lift some of the affected areas. During the recess, I hope Government, he was very clear indeed that the regional to see at first hand some of the problems that she has growth fund is not in any way a replacement for housing described so vividly. My hon. Friend the Member for market renewal funding. What happened to the circular Hyndburn (Graham Jones) gave a wide-ranging and that the Minister put out? Did Lord Heseltine simply expert analysis of HMR and its importance to the area ignore it, or perhaps the status of the edict from the that he represents. Department for Communities and Local Government My hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent was simply lost on the chairman of the approval panel. South (Robert Flello) and for Stoke-on-Trent North To his credit, Lord Heseltine has a considerable (Joan Walley) described how the scheme was just starting understanding of regeneration projects and, after the to have an impact. Clearly the rug has simply been Toxteth riots, he got heavily involved in trying to make pulled from under the feet of those concerned. My hon. significant changes and improvements to some of the Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North made a country’s most run-down communities through plea for a cross-cutting approach. Sadly, I have to tell regeneration. There were, of course, two housing-related her that the Government are simply doing the cutting 45WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 46WH part. She also touched on business rates, which are Andrew Stunell: I certainly intend to give answers extremely relevant. That was a point very well made. I about that. hope that the Minister will take that away, because the Perhaps I should say something about the baggage impact on areas such as hers could be significant if, that I bring to the debate. I first secured elected office in again, the decisions taken are the wrong ones. My hon. 1979, having run a successful local campaign to prevent Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) the wholesale demolition and redevelopment of homes is an assiduous debater on this and related issues. He in Chester. I am happy to say that those homes are still flagged up an alternative, more pragmatic approach there and are now seen as highly marketable assets. We that the Government might have followed and pointed all bring different stories and different perspectives to out that they simply chose not to do so. the debate. I am well aware that good regeneration work Labour Members have tried hard to clarify this matter has been undertaken in Merseyside and elsewhere, and I and have raised the issue on the Floor of the House. My am also well aware of the challenges that have been hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington faced in the area. The hon. Member for Liverpool, (Jack Dromey), who is in this Chamber today, has—I Wavertree mentioned the Picton and Kensington renewal hope he will forgive me for saying this—been like a dog areas in her constituency. with a bone. He, too, has written to the Minister for Several contributors to the debate have acknowledged Housing and Local Government, most recently on 29 June, that not all housing market renewal schemes got off on but there has been no answer. Perhaps the Minister for the right foot. Not all of them were pursued in the right Housing and Local Government has been too busy way and, in fact, not all of them were appropriate. A writing corrections to the previous debate. My hon. number of them certainly generated significant local Friend asked some straightforward questions in his controversy and failed to engage properly with local letter, many of which have been asked again today by communities. Quite often, the renewal process divided my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree, local opinion. Amid the understandable passion that and I shall add to her list. Will the Minister make it has been brought to the debate, it is important that we absolutely clear whether Lord Heseltine is correct in keep some perspective on that particular point. saying that the regional growth fund will not cover I shall start by responding to some of the specific HMR or anything of that sort? points that were raised before going on to deal with Importantly, my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, several of the broader points that I think need to be set Wavertree also asked whether bids, which have been out. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan prepared at some cost to local authorities, will be considered Walley) asked for several specific assurances. Officials at all by the approval panel. If not, will local authorities from my Department are more than ready to work with be reimbursed, given that they were quite clearly sold a Stoke-on-Trent council and others on the future direction pup by the Government? Perhaps in the absence of a of the north Staffordshire regeneration area. Indeed, written reply from the Minister for Housing and Local officials are already in discussion on the basis of the Government, the Minister can, in summing up, answer bids and applications that have been put in for the all those questions, because he will have adequate time £30 million match funding that has been referred to, so to do so. I hope that we get good, full, oral answers and I am happy to give her that assurance. I have visited that we do not have to wait for updated written answers. Stoke-on-Trent and looked at some of the situations that she described. 12.10 pm Joan Walley: My concern is not just about the transitional The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for fund and securing our share of it, because that is geared Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): towards demolition. I want to see how all the different It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for funding can be aligned so that we can get investment in what I think is the first time, Mrs Riordan. I congratulate homes, communities and local regeneration. If the Minister the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana can help with that, I will be very happy to do whatever I Berger) on bringing this subject to the Chamber. I can to facilitate it. should perhaps say that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Local Government recently met the Andrew Stunell: At the risk of having to issue a hon. Lady to discuss regeneration in her constituency. correction—I do not have a magic wand—I can say that He also took the opportunity to visit Merseyside in those discussions will be wide-ranging. Of course, they May to see the work being undertaken in both Liverpool can be as wide-ranging as Stoke chooses to make them. and Sefton. I have also visited Liverpool, so I have seen successful, and perhaps less successful, schemes and I want to move on to something that I am sure the their outcomes. hon. Lady will want the official discussions to cover. She mentioned the link between enterprise zone applications Luciana Berger: I just want to re-enforce a point that and regeneration. She is absolutely right to say that I made earlier. One reason for securing the debate is there should be as much synergy as possible in public that while the Housing Minister did come to Liverpool, investment, or in public stimulation of private investment, during a meeting there that was attended by a wide in both of those. It is entirely right and proper that range of people from the local communities affected by discussions range across the boundaries and that we the cut to HMR, he said that we in Liverpool could should not put these things in separate silos. apply for money from the regional growth fund. As that The hon. Lady also asked specifically about the local has now been proven to be not the case, further to the government resource review and the Government’s evidence given by Lord Heseltine in the Communities announced, albeit not yet detailed, proposals for returning and Local Government Committee, it is really important business rates to local authorities. I do know the answer that we receive answers about that today. to her question; indeed, it has been given from the 47WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 48WH

[Andrew Stunell] Andrew Stunell: I might give way in a moment, but not until I have finished my sentence at least. Dispatch Box. However, she will have to wait for the I want to tell the hon. Gentleman that the £62,000 is detail of that answer for one or two weeks, when we the first payment in six years of payments on the homes actually publish the proposals—the correct civil service brought into use in his area in the past year. That will be word for that is probably “imminently”. I assure her augmented by the homes brought into use in successive that neither Stoke-on-Trent nor any other local authority years. That £360,000 is real, additional money that will find themselves at a financial disadvantage in the Hyndburn would not otherwise have received. Some first year of the operation of the scheme. It is central to local authorities—Sefton metropolitan borough council, the proposals that we are bringing forward that that for instance—have used the incoming income as an should be the case. underpinning guarantee to raise loans and finances in order to proceed with regeneration. That was one of the Joan Walley: I realise that time is short, but our projects that my right hon. Friend the Housing Minister concern is not just about being disadvantaged in the visited in Merseyside a few weeks ago. first year; it is about the level on which future decisions are made. We could well find ourselves falling severely behind after three years. Will the Minister please feed Graham Jones: I was clear about what I said: if there that back into the final version when he announces it in is an oversupply of houses—more houses than people— two week’s time? there is low demand, and therefore, naturally, less from the new homes bonus. Hence we end up with the figure Andrew Stunell: The hon. Lady’s point is thoroughly of £62,000, which is the 11th lowest in the country. The understood. I do not think that she will be disappointed, argument is perfectly logical, but it falls down when the but she is tempting me on to territory on which it really Housing Minister says on the Floor of the House that is not right for me to advance. we should not worry about losing housing market renewal because we will get the new homes bonus. That is where Alison Seabeck: Just for absolute clarity, I would the argument falls down; the rest is linear with all the appreciate it if the Minister would clarify something ducks lined up—that is my point. On the Under-Secretary’s that he said. He stated that authorities would not be mention of extra money, the new homes bonus is being disadvantaged in the first year. Given that many of top-sliced from the formula grant after year two, and it these housing and regeneration projects are much longer is also being taken from the planning delivery grant, so programmes, I think that we would all have serious I do not accept his point. worries if, after the first year, those authorities were disadvantaged as a result of the changes. Andrew Stunell: First, my right hon. Friend the Housing Minister has certainly not said that regeneration will be Andrew Stunell: I was responding to the suggestion funded by the new homes bonus—his point was that it that Stoke-on-Trent might lose £26 million. Stoke-on-Trent is an important contribution. The example of Sefton will not lose £26 million. I think that I have already shows that local authorities are well able to exploit that made our intentions clear. There have been some other and to benefit. statements, but the detail of the scheme will be well debated when it is published, so I think it is best if I go Jack Dromey: Clarity on the issue of the regional on to respond to several of the other points that were growth fund is of the highest importance in circumstances made in the debate, if I may. in which the Minister for Housing and Local Government It is way over the top for the hon. Member for has treated the House with contempt by not being here Hartlepool (Mr Wright) to say that the Government’s today and by not replying to my letter of 29 June. The decisions have set areas back by decades. That is absolutely Housing Minister has said on the Floor of the House not the case. Investments have been made and, even in and in a letter to local authorities that the regional this debate, reports have been given of their success. It growth fund can be accessed for capital projects to might be said that there is a greater belief in the successes support housing growth. However, Lord Heseltine has among Opposition Members than Government Members. said that housing renewal is not being addressed through It is absolutely not the case that such work will be set the regional growth fund. He went on to say: back as a result of the decisions that have been made. “perhaps any minute now I’ll get a letter”. I want to link that to what the hon. Member for Perhaps any minute now we will get an explanation or a Hyndburn (Graham Jones) brought to the debate. I letter—or both. leave aside his dismissal of deficit reduction, because that sensible Government aim underpins our whole I have a final point to make while I am on my feet. financial strategy. The hon. Member for Hartlepool Earlier, following powerful representations from Members must be well aware of the deficit problems found by the of Parliament affected by the cruel cutting short of a incoming Government. However, the hon. Member for visionary programme, the Minister described what they Hyndburn cannot have his argument both ways: it said as “sob stories”. Will he take the opportunity to seemed to be that the fundamental difficulty in east withdraw what he said? Lancashire was too many homes and not enough people, in which case it can hardly be wrong if the new homes Andrew Stunell: Let us focus on the regional growth bonus generates more houses in places with more people fund because time is limited. The spokesperson for the than it does in places with an excess of houses. I want Opposition said that round one of the regional growth to tell— fund supported bids in renewal areas in Hull and Wakefield, so it is absolutely not the case that regeneration projects Graham Jones: Will the Minister give way? are not being funded by the regional growth fund. 49WH Housing Market Renewal12 JULY 2011 Housing Market Renewal 50WH

I was not privy to the evidence of Lord Heseltine, but Jack Dromey: Will the Minister give way? I have seen the reports and heard the quotes, and he said that the terms of reference of the regional growth Andrew Stunell: No, I will not give way. I have made fund are to promote—funnily enough—growth in the the point absolutely clear and I am moving on. regions. There is no automatic link to housing market On the former renewal programme, the reality of the regeneration projects although, as hon. Members have fiscal deficit means that we have had to take tough mentioned, there are employment, environmental and decisions about where savings can be made and to social benefits to successful regeneration. I take it as ensure that we focus on growth. The previous Government’s clear that the bids accepted from Hull and Wakefield programme was far too centrally driven from Whitehall must have met the criteria of supporting growth, as well and, by proxy, sometimes too centrally driven from as the social and environmental criteria about which town halls. It included targets for demolition and, in hon. Members have spoken today. that sense, it was all too literally top-down, as the hon. The bids for round two of the regional growth fund Member for Stoke-on-Trent North acknowledged. It have been submitted and are, no doubt, being evaluated resulted in imposed schemes that were often resented by by Lord Heseltine’s advisory committee. The bids are local communities and created as many problems as signed off by the Government. they solved. That approach has not worked, and has often resulted in blighted areas in which large-scale Jack Dromey: We need absolute clarity: are we therefore demolition and clearance projects have come to a standstill. returning to the original position? In the Housing Minister’s In my last minute, I shall speak about the sum of letter to the local authorities, he said: £30 million, which is to be matched by other funding. “we will also provide access to a Regional Growth Fund to fund Bids have so far been received from all five eligible areas capital projects which could support housing growth” and the indications are that the match funding will be and housing renewal. Are the Government now saying available, thus allowing £60 million to be spent. That that the regional growth fund can be used for such £60 million is the assessment of what is needed to get purposes? the existing schemes into a shipshape position—viable environmentally and locally—so that the next stage of development in those areas can happen. There is a Andrew Stunell: Not only that it can, but that it has. process, and I can tell the hon. Member for Liverpool, In Hull and Wakefield, it has been used for such purposes. Wavertree that Liverpool city council has submitted a All bids must be evaluated, their strength must be substantial bid. Officials will consider it and, no doubt, measured and their contribution to growth must be will make recommendations to Ministers in due course. considered. It is therefore not the case that a large slice We are ensuring that, at the national level, £261 million of the regional growth fund is diverted into social and is available for market renewal in 2010-11, which is a housing regeneration. However, when social and housing substantial amount. Also, the reason why the five were regeneration can contribute to growth, a project will be chosen was not arbitrary, but because of the improvement not only eligible but, as in the cases of Hull and Wakefield, in those areas— successful. I will now make some progress— Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. 51WH 12 JULY 2011 Drivers and Diabetes 52WH

Drivers and Diabetes reply from the Minister to a parliamentary question that the Government are now saying that further input from some of those who have responded may be necessary. 12.30 pm That is the situation at present. John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) My constituent, Donald Campbell, has type 2 diabetes. (LD): I rise to raise the matter of type 2 driving licences He was diagnosed in 2000, but was not treated with for public service vehicles and large goods vehicles, insulin until 2005, when he was advised by doctors to particularly disqualification as a result of having insulin- change his medication to slow-release insulin to protect dependent diabetes. I raise the matter primarily because his long-term health. Since then, his health has improved a constituent, Mr Donald Campbell, has brought it to considerably, for which I am grateful, and at his annual my attention, having had his licence removed in curious check-ups his consultant tells him he is going from circumstances, which I will come to. However, I would strength to strength. Mr Campbell notified the Driver like to say at the outset how grateful I am to Diabetes and Vehicle Licensing Authority of his use of insulin in UK and other people who have been in touch to brief 2005, and his LGV licence was immediately withdrawn. me on this debate. However, two years later, in August 2007, the licence May I say at the outset that I do not for one moment was reinstated. Mr Campbell was obviously extremely question that it is absolutely correct that, when medical pleased about that, and returned to full-time driving conditions may cause a safety issue, they should be with no problems. He renewed his licence in 2008 and proscribed? A range of conditions are taken into account, 2009, so he had three years of driving. Not until last and people who suffer from them, whether they hold summer did the DVLA recognise that under the present group 1 or group 2 licences, may be prevented from regulations, it had reissued Mr Campbell’s group 2 driving. I do not for a moment question that. Having licence wrongly. While Mr Campbell was driving, he been a transport spokesman for my party two Parliaments experienced no problem whatever, and he has been ago, and having been a member of Standing Committees driving alongside those with grandfather rights—hence on various legislation, I am well aware of the importance their importance—and those from other EU countries of road safety and of this country’s extremely good who have already been given the right to drive on such track record. We obviously want to keep the number of licences. At the moment, his job is being held for him deaths and injuries to an absolute minimum; we have a pending the possibility that the UK will catch up. good track record compared with many other countries, This is an opportunity for the Minister to right a and nothing should be done to prejudice that. long-standing wrong perpetrated by the EU. Had there At the same time, although it is proper that people been no original directive, undoubtedly the traditional with some medical conditions should be prevented from elements of British fair play would have come into driving, others—with proper supervision and consultation, effect, and the sort of rules we are now contemplating perhaps with annual or periodic check-ups—should would almost certainly have been those that Her Majesty’s properly be permitted to drive. The other question is Government adopted. It has come to pass that the EU, whether it is right to remove someone’s livelihood in the having seen the error of its ways, has put in place that case of a group 2 licence when the example of other which will allow the Minister to correct an obvious countries and, indeed, medical advice suggest that that wrong—I know how much that will appeal to him. The is unnecessary. change is open and available, and has been adopted by I will give a rapid history, which I am sure the other EU countries, so it is peculiar that we are dragging Minister is as well aware of as I am. The regulations our feet; perhaps the Minister will address the reason precluding insulin-dependent diabetics from obtaining for that, and the safety aspect. Why are we content that vocational licences were introduced in 1991, and annex III drivers from all sorts of other countries enjoy that specifies that for drivers of LGVs and PCVs, relaxation and are considered safe, but we do not extend that to our own people? Are there are any statistics “driving licences shall not be granted or renewed for applicants or showing whether insulin-dependent drivers are more drivers who are diabetics needing insulin treatment”. likely than others to have an accident? Since 1 April 1991, insulin-dependent diabetics have been barred by law from applying for such a licence, and Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): I congratulate my indeed from renewal thereafter. A point in parenthesis hon. Friend on securing this debate, which is not the is that those who held a licence under certain conditions first time in the last 15 years that the House has discussed had grandfather rights, and some people may still be the matter. I have had a similar debate. I suffer from driving with those rights. I will come to why that is diabetes, and I know people who can win gold medals, important. and others whom I would not trust to drive my lawn In August 2009, following reports from three medical mower. The reality is that the decision should be based working groups, the European Commission adopted an on an individual medical assessment, and I hope my amending directive, 2009/113/EC, on the driving licence hon. Friend agrees. rules covering eyesight, epilepsy and diabetes. The change to the rules allows member states to issue group 2 John Thurso: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. licences to drivers with insulin-dependent diabetes when, The whole point of my case is that the medical profession in the opinion of a qualified medical practitioner, the can, with considerable accuracy, state when people should condition is properly controlled and they pose no risk be taken off the road—I am sure that they apply a to themselves or other road users. That change should precautionary principle—and when they may be allowed have been in force by August 2010, but the UK was to continue to drive. I am particularly concerned about unable to meet that deadline, and a consultation paper group 2 licences—commercial licences—and my constituent. was eventually put out in February this year. The I received a recent e-mail from him which sums up the consultation has now closed, but I understand from a situation: 53WH Drivers and Diabetes12 JULY 2011 Drivers and Diabetes 54WH

“I am sorry to be such a pain”— deadline. As I have said to my officials, we will produce he is no pain at all, I hasten to add, and has been proposals on diabetes, which will be based on clinical extremely patient— advice. I will be subject to criticism from those involved “but I am so exasperated with the whole issue—every time they in the other areas on which we are not yet ready to take my licence away I am left trying to keep things going introduce proposals. My view, however, is that if we are financially and this time they have wiped me out…Between the ready to introduce proposals in one of those areas—by worry of keeping the bank off my shoulders and the boss needing October, we should have a proposal on diabetes—we to know when I’m coming back to work, I am drained.” should go ahead and remove the blight that affects not That shows the personal impact on my constituent. only the hon. Gentleman’s constituent but many other Given that the rules may be about to change and that people around the country. the Government have put forward proposals that would permit him, subject to medical examination, to get back It is imperative that we do that that without affecting on the road and back to work, I suspect that he feels a road safety and, as the hon. Gentleman said in his little like a mouse that is being toyed with by a cat. The opening remarks, that is the principle from which we Government owe their citizens better than that. I throw start. The UK has a good record on road safety—indeed, myself at the feet of the Minister, whom I know is an we have the safest roads in the world. A new report on honest and honourable man, and plead with him to lift the number of people killed or seriously injured on the that burden from my constituent. roads last year indicates that we are now doing even better. Over the years, we have struggled in some areas of road safety to get the right results, particularly 12.40 pm concerning serious injuries for motorcyclists, but—as a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport biker, I declare an interest—we did particularly well in (Mike Penning): It is a pleasure to serve under your that area last year. chairmanship for the first time, Mrs Riordan, as either Of course, there are too many deaths, and we need to a Back Bencher or as a Minister of the Crown. I hope to look at the core of the issue, which we are doing in the provide a little good news for the hon. Member for road safety strategy. It is, however, absolutely imperative Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso)—it that we do not use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. is easier to say Hemel Hempstead, but I mean no slight Medically, the treatment of type 2 diabetes has moved on the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and congratulate on in leaps and bounds to say the least. I was a shadow him on securing this debate. I have been a Minister a Health Minister for three and a half years and I took a little longer than some others who have held the post particular interest in the public health side of things. over the years—the average life expectancy of a Minister Soon, we will be moving away from injections altogether, in my job is eight months, so a year and a bit is an because there will be aspirators, and we can make it exception. I have taken a particular interest in the case much easier for diabetic patients to get on with their of Mr Campbell and, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman lives and address their insulin issues. realises, in the involvement of the European Union in this great country of ours. The issue of hypos is important, as are other matters I will summarise the details of the case mentioned by such as visual impairment. My point of view as a the hon. Gentleman and endeavour to address some of non-medically trained Minister is that a clinician must the issues, particularly those relating to Mr Campbell. decide whether someone in the groups that we are At the moment, the law is specific, which was not done talking about—particularly group 2—is fit to drive. on my watch—although it is my Department and the Hopefully we will bring forward proposals on diabetes buck stops with me. When the Driver and Vehicle in October. We are further behind in the other two areas Licensing Agency gave the licence back to Mr Campbell, and, as the hon. Gentleman said in his remarks, we need it messed up. I know that it wrote to him, and I have a more consultation on those issues, in particular on the copy of the letter, which could have been worded better control of epileptic fits. and showed more empathy and understanding about There is some concern from the road safety lobby the effect that the decision on his licence would have on that we will be reliant on people addressing their need Mr Campbell, his family and the company for which he for insulin treatment themselves. Two members of my worked. I apologise for that, and if Mr Campbell were family are reliant on insulin—one is a type 1 diabetic; present today, I would apologise to him personally. We the other is a type 2 diabetic. They sometimes get it need to address problems as we go forward. I cannot wrong, and everybody understands that. We must have right the wrongs of the past, but we can try and ensure full confidence that if diabetes is controlled by insulin, that they do not happen again. We must look at how the condition is stable and the clinicians are happy with best to address such situations, and avoid the foot-dragging the situation. If that is the case, we should be able to to which the hon. Gentleman—probably quite rightly—has agree in October that after medical assessment and alluded. agreement—which will be continually assessed as things The law in question concerns epileptic fits, diabetes progress—we will allow insulin-reliant diabetics in the and visual impairment. The consultation by the DVLA classes mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, and particularly has been well taken up and a lot of work has been done. those in group 2, to drive. I said that there is some good However, the situation is complicated, because the law news includes those three areas. The areas of visual impairment and of fits are more complicated than that of diabetes, That will not, however, address the problems experienced but all three issues have been rolled into one. The hon. by Mr Campbell. Under the present rules, the DVLA Gentleman is right: ideally, we would have produced was right to take his licence away and fundamentally proposals to address all three areas by now, but, if I am wrong to give it back and not to pick up the mistake honest, we will be unable to do that by the October sooner. Everybody makes mistakes, but it is crucial to 55WH Drivers and Diabetes12 JULY 2011 Drivers and Diabetes 56WH

[Mike Penning] members of the public, after they have been diagnosed with diabetes and start treatment, to be confident about ensure that such things happen as little as possible, coming forward and saying that they have been diagnosed because they have such dramatic effects on people’s with type 2 diabetes—or whatever the condition is—and lives. about being assessed fairly, so that either they can carry The hon. Gentleman asked whether statistics are on driving in whatever categories they are designated as available to show whether diabetics who are reliant on being able to drive in or they understand why, at that insulin are more likely to be involved in an accident. As moment, their licence needs to be revoked and withheld I understand it, we do not have such statistics and when from them. That will happen in some cases. the European Commission looked into the matter, it I can refer to my own experience with my father-in-law; used the fact that there was no evidence available to I am sure that he will not mind my doing this. He was a change its mind. As hon. Members will realise, I am complete scallywag about admitting that he was a type 2 ever so slightly Eurosceptic, so it is great news that UK diabetic in the first place, despite what all the doctors plc is again allowed to be in control of procedures and were telling him. He said that he could address the safety on our roads. Our borders are open to anybody situation through his food intake or with tablets. Eventually, from the European economic area or the EU who we convinced him that he had to go to insulin injections. wishes to drive in this country, which is right and In fact, it was not me; it was his daughters who eventually proper. convinced him. They said, “You’re going to kill yourself I fully accept that other countries have moved faster if you’re not careful.” At the time, his medication had than us, but they do not have roads that are as safe as not been got right to the point where he could be ours. Many of their Ministers and officials come to see allowed to drive. His diabetes was not controlled, so he me to see how we manage to have such safe roads. If had regular hypos. they were slightly more vigilant in how they enforce People need to be able to have confidence that once road safety, the position might be different. In the area their condition is addressed—if it can be—the independent that we are debating today, they may have got things medical practitioner assessing them will either allow right a little more quickly than us. I fully accept that them to drive or indicate to them what levels they need there is an anomaly between on the one hand drivers to be at to get their licence back. At the moment, there with grandfather rights and overseas drivers and on the is a grey area. People think, “What do I need to do? other hand UK citizens who are being penalised. I Where do I need to be? Will I ever get my licence back?” think that we will be able to wipe that away very The issue of fairness is fundamental. I think that that is soon—in October, I hope. what the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, who secured the debate, was saying. I will John Thurso: I am extremely grateful for the reply use an old-fashioned term—natural justice. I use it as that the Minister is making, in terms of both the much as I can as a Minister. There is an ex-Minister in tone—I am sure that my constituent will have noted his the Chamber now for the next debate. I hope that all remarks and be grateful for them—and the good news Ministers, when they look at the effect that they are in respect of diabetes. The Minister has mentioned having on a constituent anywhere in the country, look October. Will that be when the Government promulgate at whether justice is being seen to be done. the change to the regulations? Am I therefore accurate Licences are often taken away for the right reasons. I in saying to my constituent that he might look forward understand why they are taken away, but I do not think to being able to take the medical exam in October, that we explain particularly well either the rationale for permitting him to go back to work shortly thereafter? that or the likelihood of the situation changing. As I have said, the Government will produce new proposals Mike Penning: I think that Mr Campbell should be at in October. We want there to be an open, clean discussion the front of the queue in October—I think that that is in which things are explained. We want people to be the least we can do for him. I hope that he sees that the told, “This is where we need you to be to get your Minister understands what went wrong and is trying to licence back. You can’t have your licence back at the address the matter as soon as possible. Yes, we will moment because you haven’t reached that point.”However, move the relevant orders in October, when the House there is a link between visual impairment and diabetes, returns from recess. The process will start in October in so in some circumstances people would be unlikely to relation to the particular area of diabetes, and more get their licence back. My father-in-law is now registered work is required in the other areas. I hope that people blind, because of his diabetes. It was not treated early understand that I need more time on the other two enough; he admits that that was his fault and nobody medical conditions. else’s. As a result, he will never get his licence back. We need to be honest with people, which is where natural Mr Sanders: I want the Minister to be under no justice and fairness come in. misunderstanding about this. It is critical that whatever I hope that I have been open and honest. We are change is brought in enables people with diabetes to be proceeding as fast as we can. The representative groups confident about declaring to the licensing authority for the other two medical conditions will criticise us for that they have the condition, because we do not know not moving as fast on those conditions as I have just how many people there are with the condition who, announced that we are on diabetes. That is simply fearing the loss of their licence, do not declare it. because I do not yet have the evidence base behind me to be confident enough from a road safety point of Mike Penning: The hon. Gentleman has touched on view—I am thinking of the driver as well as their loved an important point, which is one of the reasons why I ones and other road users—to move forward. As soon have moved as quickly as I can on this issue. I want as I can move on the other categories as part of the 57WH Drivers and Diabetes 12 JULY 2011 58WH review and the consultation, I will do so, but I hope that Public Spending (Coventry) in October Mr Campbell will have some control over his future income and his life. 12.56 pm Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): I am grateful to you, Mrs Riordan, for chairing the debate and to Mr Speaker and his office for agreeing to it. It is a very important debate, in the course of which I may be joined by two other MPs. I think that both were meant to have approached the Chair to say that if time permits—I hope it does—they would like to say a few words. We will of course leave adequate time for the Minister to reply. The occasion of the debate arises from some work done two or three months ago, shortly after the Budget came out, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper). She sought to show that the Budget measures, far from being progressive, as the Government had tried to imply, and far from being gender-neutral, were in fact very regressive and would impact much more severely on women than on men. The work she did initially in pursuing those points to great effect against the Government was then taken up and taken further in some excellent research work undertaken at Warwick university by two senior researchers there, Mary-Ann Stephenson and James Harrison. I am sure their work will increasingly be seen as a landmark in taking forward the points that were made by my right hon. Friend shortly after the Budget came out. Coventry was a very suitable place to use as a test case for examination of the impact of the Budget measures on women, because in Coventry the pay gap between men and women—between the genders—is already 10 points higher than the national average. Also, as we all know, the bulk of the cuts in the immediate future must come in the public sector, and in Coventry no fewer than 78% of the city council staff are women. We can therefore measure in a very significant way, across a major part of the economy in the west midlands—the local and the regional economy—what the effect of the cuts will be. I would like to deal with each point in turn, quantifying things in so far as that is possible. We can then look forward to hearing exactly what the Minister has to say in response. But if we take the cuts as a whole, it is obvious, given that 78% of the city council staff are women, that the impact will be worst on them; they will feel it most. That is a simple fact. The cuts will disproportionately fall on women. The child care tax credit is being cut from 80% to 70% of child care costs. Obviously, women will also suffer disproportionately as a result of that. Together with increased child care costs, that might lead to lower rates of employment for women and further increase the pay gap. That has not been quantified yet, but work is continuing. Such is the interest in the issue at the national level that when a colleague and I co-hosted a meeting to discuss it, the Members who joined us in the Committee Room came not only from the west midlands, but from all parties right across the spectrum. The room was full to capacity, and there was standing room only; it is not often that that happens in a public meeting in a Committee Room. The second issue is housing. Single women are the main recipients of housing benefits; again, that is pretty obvious. In Coventry, about 4,360 single women and 59WH Public Spending (Coventry)12 JULY 2011 Public Spending (Coventry) 60WH

[Mr Geoffrey Robinson] their way to say just how responsibly the council is trying to carry through the cuts. The council appreciates 2,085 women in couples claim local housing allowance that the cuts have to be made and is trying to make for private rented accommodation. LHA coverage has them in the least regressive way it can to protect children, been cut and now applies only to the bottom 30%, women and other vulnerable sectors of society. It is not rather than the bottom 50% of households. It will also picking out those with special needs, and nor is it in any be linked to the consumer prices index, rather than to sense exaggerating the cuts that have to be made; it is local rents, which will almost certainly mean—this is simply making the cuts that are necessary to stay within why the Government have also chosen CPI for their the law. pensions calculations—that its value will go down over In passing, I have heard it said—I hope the Minister time. Again, women make up by far the greatest proportion can discount this at once, and she probably can—that of those who take up this benefit, so they will, yet again, the Government could be in breach of Equality Act 2006 suffer disproportionately. and, on an individual basis, the European convention This time, we can put a figure on the cost, and on human rights, given the effects of so much of the perhaps the Minister can confirm or contradict my 2010 Budget. I am not clear whether test cases are being figures in her reply. In the short term, the changes will brought, although I did try to find out. However, it cost those who are affected in Coventry between £8 and would be interesting to learn from the Minister whether £15 a week. If that is not right, perhaps the Minister any are being brought and if so, how far they have got, will correct me. Again, however, those are hidden effects, because some of the Government’s measures are clearly and they are not spelled out in any of the Government’s so discriminatory—as well as being at least questionable background notes to the Budget or anywhere else in under the terms of the 2006 Act—that they could be their calculations. Those hidden effects, which the subject to judicial review, as I hope they will be. Government have tried to cover up, are impacting directly On violence against women, the report produced a on women in Coventry and, therefore, on their families. figure that shocked everybody—from my researchers to On incomes and poverty, it is pretty obvious that the report’s researchers. Let me give the numbers, shocking women are poorer than men—that is a statement of though they are. Some 30,397 women in Coventry are fact. As I have discussed, they also get a higher percentage likely to have been raped or sexually abused at some of their income from benefits. For example, 33,595 point in their lifetime. If we remember that there are households in Coventry receive tax credits, and 35,000 310,000 people in the whole of Coventry, and we divide receive out-of-work benefits. The proposed changes that by half or slightly more to reflect the percentage of will, once again, impact on women. The changes include women in the total population, it is clear that that cuts to benefits to pregnant women and families with statistic for the likely number of women who will face new babies, the freezing of child benefit, cuts to child some form of sexual abuse at some point in their care tax credits and cuts to the numbers who are eligible lifetime is frightening and really rather offensive. Some for tax credits. Lone parents will be required to seek 38,537 women are likely to experience some level domestic work once their eldest child is just five. Those changes violence in their lifetime. Again, I do not think the will have big impacts, and I will quantify them in a researchers wanted to attach any undue importance to moment. the exactitude of their estimates, but the broad measure Disability living allowance is being cut by 20%. Someone is shocking. claiming for a person who loses DLA will also lose The provision that was made to deal with that situation carer’s allowance. It is a pretty heartless Government was already inadequate, although heaven knows we who attack the most vulnerable in our society in that pushed for a higher level of support from the council way. It almost seems that the Government have zeroed and the Labour Government—I am not pretending that in on women to prove the point made by my right hon. the Labour party did a marvellous job. There are eight Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and specialist domestic abuse officers to deal with the situation Castleford. I have described. The benefit and tax changes in the 2010 Budget will Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): I cost women in Coventry £29 million, which is an awful have been waiting for my hon. Friend to get on to the lot of money. On a broad calculation, that is more than section of the report that deals with violence against £180 per woman per year, so the Budget will have a women, because it really is most disturbing. Organisations significant impact. However, the impact on the budget such as the Coventry rape and sexual abuse centre are of the average family and the average woman was set worried about funding, although the council has agreed out nowhere in the Government’s figures. The cost to to give it part-time funding, which is not secure. However, men will be half the cost to women. Again, I would be it is not just a matter of the sharp end of abuse against happy for the Minister to try to challenge my figures—if women. If women become more dependent on men as a she can. result of the cuts, some will be inclined to stay in homes On education, many women have to balance a job where they are potentially vulnerable and where they with looking after the kids and getting them to school. may be abused. That is clearly brought out in the Like most authorities—I do not think Coventry has relevant section of this first-class piece of work. been unduly affected in this respect—Coventry has had its schools grant cut. The 24% cut to the schools budget Mr Robinson: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, has resulted in a cut to special needs and mental health who is spot on. The cuts to housing benefit will make it support in schools—that is where the impact will be harder for women to move from the area to get away most heavily felt. In no sense is that to be taken as a from their attacker. That is precisely the point made in criticism of the council. Indeed, I am pleased to say that the report, and my right hon. Friend rightly emphasised in certain parts of the report, the authors go out of it recently in the press in Coventry. 61WH Public Spending (Coventry)12 JULY 2011 Public Spending (Coventry) 62WH

Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I apologise That seems a pretty harsh message to send to the for having been a minute or two late, although the women of Coventry, and if that is the best the Government debate might have started early. My hon. Friend and my can offer, I warn them now that the people of Coventry right hon. Friend make a valuable point. For a long will not be impressed. They will in due course have time, the rape crisis centre in Coventry has struggled, to occasion to express their own opinion about a Government say the least, to get resources, and the cuts will make the who have been as hard-hearted and indifferent to the situation worse. Do the figures for women who are cause of women and children as the present Government abused or raped in Coventry—or anywhere else for that appear to be. matter—not call into question the Government’s policy on cutting legal aid and funding for citizens advice Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): I remind any other bureaux, because vulnerable people, and particularly Member who wishes to contribute that the Minister women, will often use those agencies? will need time to reply, so perhaps they can keep their comments brief. 1.13 pm Mr Robinson: My hon. Friend is exactly right. Perhaps I may take a second to say that I think my hon. Friends Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): I want to say a word, if they are able to catch your eye, shall keep my comments brief because the speech made Mrs Riordan, and if we have time, about the wider by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North aspects of the issue. After all, if more women are West (Mr Robinson) was very thorough and comprehensive. trapped in violent relationships there will be greater I want to make only one point in addition to his, and mental, physical and sexual health problems for them as that is about funding for the Coventry rape and sexual a result, with an increased cost to the taxpayer. The abuse centre. NHS will have to cope when it is already under tremendous It is well known that the conviction rates for rape in pressure and its budget is being dramatically cut. The this country are abysmally low. However, it has been issue is wider than just the reduction, although the proved beyond doubt that when an area has an appropriate Minister needs to explain how anyone can justify cutting service that provides support from the start, the propensity the number of Coventry’s specialist domestic abuse for victims to go through with an allegation, and for the officers from eight to two and reducing rape support conviction rate to rise considerably, is massive. We are resources, at the same time as other measures will well served by the centre in Coventry, but its funding is clearly increase the likelihood of the problem that those in crisis. It is constantly dependent on temporary funding. staff and resources are meant to deal with. It seems Despite the massive cuts that are being imposed on the crude and harsh, and we wonder whether it is strictly council, it has agreed, for a time, to maintain some of necessary to go along that path. centre’s funding on a temporary basis. However, we are really struggling to continue to provide such a vital I want to mention the women’s voluntary organisations. service. Were we to lose it, the impact on women in the Overall, the council, in line with other councils, faces city would be huge. cuts of about £38 million in its grant from central Government. A number of streams from that are for 1.15 pm voluntary organisations, and those are due to end; some The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine have already ended. Those voluntary organisations face Greening): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, increasing demand from the communities they serve, Mrs Riordan, in what we would all agree is an important for the reasons we have been analysing. As hardship debate in relation to the difficult challenges that we face. increases and cuts bite in all the areas I have mentioned, I congratulate the hon. Member for Coventry North demand will increase. As resources are cut there will be West (Mr Robinson) on securing the debate, and I greater pressures on hospital services and the police, understand why he has raised the issues. In the time which are also being cut. There will be a double whammy— available, I shall do my best to respond. If I feel that I cuts on one hand and increased need on the other. have not done so, and if there are specific points on Women’s voluntary organisations appear from the which he would like further clarification, I may well study to be particularly vulnerable, with some expecting also drop him a line. cuts of up to 70% of their funding next year. I can We all understand that the backdrop to the debate is inform the Minister, if she wants to deal with them the need to get the economy and public finances back individually, of the types of voluntary organisations on to a sustainable footing over time. As a country, we that are particularly badly affected. Can that be looked were always going to have to do that. The hon. Gentleman, at again? We do not expect answers to everything today, for whom I have a lot of respect, talked about the deficit but we would like some undertaking from the Minister being caused by the private sector. We would all accept to check out the research funding and reconsider that there has been a banking crisis, but many people Government policy in the light of that. She could then also recognise that something more fundamental was tell us, “Yes, that is indeed our policy, and although we going wrong with the working of our economy and did not intend the consequences, those are the consequences public finances, and that was due to the fact that we had and you will have to live with it.”If that is the Government’s a structural deficit. Even in the boom times—the good message, they should be straightforward with the people times—when tax revenues were rolling into the Treasury of Coventry—the women of Coventry—and say, “This as fast as they were ever going to, that money was still is the price that we are asking Coventry women to pay not enough to cover the country’s outgoings. to put right the faults, and the massive irresponsible The Treasury Ministers dealing with public finances financial borrowings.” That is all, of course, in the in the present Government are therefore in a position context of reducing the deficit caused by private sector in which I assure the hon. Gentleman that we never bankers. wanted to be. We had to take the decision that it was in 63WH Public Spending (Coventry)12 JULY 2011 Public Spending (Coventry) 64WH

[Justine Greening] We have tried to ensure that we provide support for women through tax measures and several of our public everyone’s interest to get the problem sorted out during spending measures. The hon. Gentleman spoke about the course of this Parliament. When we look at the the difficult decisions that Coventry city council is problems in countries in the rest of Europe—we need having to make. He has doubtless raised the matter with only look at Greece—we see that there is still an economic local councillors and the council leader, and discussed crisis, and our country needs to stay out of it. Our especially whether the deficit reduction piece that has deficit reduction plan is critical in enabling us to do fallen on Coventry is being carried out locally in the that. right way to deal with the local people’s priorities. The hon. Gentleman raised the question of what is I take seriously what the hon. Gentleman said about the fairest way to approach the situation. How can we particular issues, such as rape and support for women. achieve a balance between getting our public books As a local constituency MP, I have taken a particular back into order and making sure that the process is interest in ensuring that refuge and support are in place fair—that is one of the key points of the spending for women. Many of these women who need such review and the Budget—while stimulating growth at the support are not from my community, but come to it same time? The hon. Gentleman will be aware that one because they must get away from difficult situations. thing that we chose to do in the emergency Budget was The hon. Gentleman was absolutely right to raise the to reduce corporation tax, and we built on that with a matter. further cut in the most recent Budget. We tried to strike The Government have allowed councils more freedom a balance between cash-flow issues—the money side—and in how they spend their money. A lot of ring-fencing putting ourselves in a position to ensure growth in the has been removed precisely to enable councils to take economy, particularly in parts of the country such as more locally focused decisions in these difficult times Coventry and the midlands that suffered in the recession. about where money goes. Some research now shows that the west midlands in The hon. Gentleman also spoke about voluntary particular suffered disproportionately, and that gives us organisations. I assure him that we are committed to a double challenge. When I was an Opposition MP, I supporting them—not because of the difficult spending would have argued that, during the boom years preceding review settlement and the difficult situation with public the recession, parts of the country outside the south-east finances in which we find ourselves, but because it is the did not do well enough. According to statistics, between right thing to do. One of the less publicised parts of this 2002 and 2006, for every 10 jobs created in the south-east year’s Budget was the big package on philanthropy and and London, just one in the private sector was created there was also a package in support of gift aid. We need outside. to consider what can be done to help voluntary organisations. We also changed AMAPs—approved mileage Mr Robinson rose— allowance payments—to help voluntary organisations in terms of volunteers and passengers. Justine Greening: I will give way in a second. We have taken further equally important steps. For What I have described was a big problem. In addition, the first time, we published an overview of the impact of because of the continued hollowing-out of manufacturing the spending review on groups protected by equalities in the previous decade, the west midlands suffered legislation, including women. The increase in personal particularly, and I recognise that women also suffered allowance will help 880,000 of the lowest-paid workers— as part of that. they will stop paying tax altogether—and we know that I shall now give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I the majority of those at the bottom end of the low-income assure him that once he has intervened, I shall speak scale are women. We are also pushing the personal about some of the matters that he raised, particularly in allowance higher. One thing that we have in the back of respect of women. our minds is the fact that many of those workers were hit by the withdrawal of the 10p tax rate. In a sense, my challenge to the hon. Gentleman is whether he was Mr Robinson: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. making such points when the Labour Government were On this occasion, I am not going to disagree terribly withdrawing that rate, as that change affected a number about whether things are regressive, not fair or not of women. sufficient, nor about whether they are too fast. The point here is to have a close look at the effect on women, We have also tried to support families. The hon. as my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Gentleman mentioned the House of Commons Library Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) has stressed—the research, and if I have time—no, I shall make time—I Minister herself has a keen interest in the matter. If we shall say why we do not agree with its analysis, although could consider the impact on women, I would be very it clearly made an important contribution to the debate. grateful. We increased child tax credits because we were particularly concerned to ensure that we did not go backwards on child poverty, even in these challenging times. As he Justine Greening: We were careful in the spending pointed out, the change will be important for the many review not only to consider its impact on women, but to women in single-family households. understand its impact across the deciles. The hon. Gentleman asserts that the spending review and the As for pensioners, we have re-established the earnings Budget were regressive. However, research shows that it link and put back the triple guarantee. We know that is the very richest people in our country who are bearing women are far more likely to rely on a state pension the brunt—they bear the biggest load—of tackling the than men, and of course they are also likely to live deficit. longer, so that will help them, too. Those are the sorts 65WH Public Spending (Coventry)12 JULY 2011 Public Spending (Coventry) 66WH of things that were missed in the research carried out by designed principally to help the child, and the child can the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and be of either gender, so it is not particularly accurate to Castleford (Yvette Cooper). say that our approach would necessarily hit women. I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s statistic on the Mr Ainsworth: The Minister talks about the impact proportion of lone parents who are women. However, on women of the pension changes, but does she not feel the analysis missed out the fact that in some of the areas that the speeding up of the equalisation will be that we have protected, such as health, women particularly disproportionately onerous on those women in their benefit. We are taking steps to improve the amount of mid to late 50s who will have no chance of making up breast screening for cancer. At the moment, the breast for the now increased burden of providing for their own screening programme offers screening every three years pensions? Put simply, they do not have the time to for all women in England aged 50 and over. Women improve their pension pots. aged between 50 and 70 are invited for screening routinely, while women over the age of 70 can request free three-year Justine Greening: I recognise the debate that is taking screening, but we are extending that programme to place about that, but I also recognise that we have to be include women aged 47 to 49. fair to everybody, and that means ensuring not only that our state pension system is fair to women today, Mr Robinson: We have reached the interesting part of particularly those nearing pensionable age, but that it the debate—I wish we could have got on to it earlier. will be fair to women of my age and to younger generations. The debate is obviously about Coventry, but the points They deserve to know that they can rely on state pension being raised are of general significance—they are major into which they pay through national insurance and any policy matters throughout the country. Will the Minister occupational pension that they might set up. For the tell us on which particular points the research is weak, women of the future who are now in our primary because I do not agree that it is? Lone parents is an schools, the huge problem of our deficit and the public obvious area to consider, because they are mainly women, debt needs to be sorted out so that it does not fall on and the disproportionate impact on women is precisely their shoulders later. what we are discussing. We will not have time for that today, but will the Minister reply to the point about the I now turn to the important point of what the hon. research? Member for Coventry North West said about the Library analysis. As a Government, we disagree particularly Justine Greening: I shall write to the hon. Gentleman with its assumptions about where benefits go and who to elaborate on those points that I cannot answer now. actually benefits from them, which were understandable We cannot consider only one aspect of the decisions but not necessarily accurate. For example, the research taken in the spending review and ignore the weight of made the broad assumption that only the person who the rest of those decisions. They affect not only women, received a welfare payment would benefit from it. The but everyone. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are hon. Gentleman mentioned housing benefit, but that is committed to ensuring that the difficult decisions that meant to help the whole household, not just the person we have to take—they will be difficult—are fair. We who receives it. have produced more analysis with the emergency Budget, On child benefit, the research apparently showed that the spending review and this year’s Budget to help the spending review and the Budget hit women particularly people to understand how those decisions fall across hard. Child benefit and child tax credit—the latter went our communities, and I hope that that is helpful to the up this year and will increase again next year—are hon. Gentleman. 67WH 12 JULY 2011 Benefits (EU Nationals) 68WH

Benefits (EU Nationals) We cannot walk into a potentially burgeoning welfare commitment with our eyes closed, and we must act to protect our public finances. We cannot castigate the 1.30 pm previous Labour Government for massively underestimating Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): It is delightful the number of Polish migrant workers who would come to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, to the UK and then put the blinkers on our own eyes Mrs Riordan. This is an important debate. I have a brief when it comes to the A2 countries. time in which to speak—I wish that it were longer—but The MAC report showed that, relative to other A8 I will allow my colleagues to make brief interventions, if countries, Poland had a much lower GDP per capita they need to make a particular point. than Britain, and so many Poles came to the UK to seek Can British taxpayers, with a massive budget deficit work. As the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), of £143.2 billion, afford to be so generous with their in his capacity as poverty tsar, has been advising the benefits payment system to everyone who tries to claim? Government, it is no secret that nearly 90% of the newly Are we the benefit pot for the EU or the UK? Do we, created jobs have been filled with migrant workers, through our lax approach, encourage benefit tourism? many of whom have dependent families back home. Under EU rules governing non-discrimination against With an even worse GDP per capita for both Bulgaria other EU member citizens, many of our benefits are and Romania, we must expect them to react to their ultimately available to many of the citizens who have circumstances in the same way and to seek a more decided to join us from other EU member states with affluent lifestyle on our doorstep. only a few exceptions for some accession countries. The We should have learned a lot from the failure of the amount of benefits being paid has risen enormously, previous Government to protect the coffers of the UK and our own Chancellor, in his spending review, is from EU migrants seeking, very understandably, to looking at ways in which to bring down the welfare bill. better their economic lot and that of their families, I suggest that we start with EU benefit tourists and by many of whom will have stayed behind in their mother closing some of the loopholes that have been exploited country. I do not blame them; they are simply working by the canny. within a set of rules that we have stupidly put in place. My colleagues will not be surprised to hear that I am no fan of the bloated, greedy, meddling Euro-state. I Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): This is an did not vote for it, and the power-creep that has gone on important subject, and I congratulate the hon. Lady on over the years is abhorrent to many older citizens who securing the debate. Does she not accept that in judging voted for a common market based on trade. In 2004, this in the round, we also have to take into account the 10 countries joined the EU, and their citizens are afforded benefits to our economy and to other economies of the same rights as those of other EU member states. freedom of movement? Should we also not take account Transitional measures for up to seven years restricted of the benefits that accrue to British citizens through the right of freedom of movement for labour for eight having rights of movement to other EU countries? of the 10 new accession states. Often called the A8 countries, they are Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Mrs Main: There are undoubtedly benefits, but we Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. Ireland, Sweden are talking about countries with different levels of affluence. and the UK were the only EU member states to grant Although we benefit from some hardworking migrants, full labour market access to the A8 nationals. Other we also have to open up our benefit pot. It is no good member states maintained their existing work permit expecting our country to withstand massive cuts in arrangements or implemented a modified work permit benefits and services to try to tackle a budget deficit regime. while, at the same time, handing out largesse elsewhere. At that time, we foolishly implemented a transitional I want to examine those failures and learn from them, set of arrangements covering a workers’ registration especially as Romania and Bulgaria will soon enjoy full scheme. These arrangements have lapsed for the A8 accession rights. group as of this year. That category of EU migrant There is no point in any of us wringing our hands, worker will be able to claim jobseekers’ allowance, berating the shortcomings of the previous Government council tax benefit and housing benefit on top of other and moaning that our hard-earned taxes are being sent benefits such as child benefit. If the Migration Advisory abroad if we are not prepared to tackle this. I urge the Committee’s report of 2009 is anything to go by, we can Minister to take note and, hopefully, take action. expect an even greater call on our benefits now that the Child benefit is a notable example that has caught the transitional arrangements have lapsed. The MAC report eye of hon. Members in all parts of the House. I pay looked into extending the transitional arrangements for particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for EU migrant workers until April 2011. Witham (Priti Patel) for her sterling work in uncovering In 2008, the MAC reviewed the evidence on drivers recent data that show how our child benefit is being for migration. Relative income levels—GDP per capita transferred by EU migrants and their families. expressed in purchasing power standard—in A8 countries In 2007, the Secretary of State for Transport, my demonstrated the strongest relationship to immigration right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and rates. We must learn from history. If there is a direct Weybridge (Mr Hammond), who was then shadow link, as outlined by the MAC in 2009, that people from Treasury spokesperson, said: poorer countries are more likely to come to work and “There are 200,000 more British children living in poverty than claim benefits in Britain, then we must expect that when a year ago. Child benefit is a vital weapon in the fight against the current transitional arrangements for Bulgaria and child poverty. So why is Gordon Brown sending thousands of Romania lapse this year, or in 2013 if we achieve an pounds of benefits every week to children who do not live here extension, many thousands of them will come over, too. and who may never have even visited the UK.” 69WH Benefits (EU Nationals)12 JULY 2011 Benefits (EU Nationals) 70WH

I totally agree, so why are we still doing it and why will the EU, can claim it for children who do not even live we keep on doing it in ever greater amounts when the here.” They are furious and so am I. It is estimated that new A2 countries will equally want a slice of our benefit 1.2 million British families will lose out under the new pie? We cannot just hope that other countries may not benefit rules. I am not happy that we are looking at this know about the apparent advantages of seeking benefits issue in this way. in our country. Although in theory there is reciprocation, other EU At the time my right hon. Friend made his comments, countries have far lower benefit rates, and many EU the biggest Polish newspaper in Britain, The Polish countries also have tougher qualification rules. All those Express, ran a story headlined “Benefit Hunters”, which EU countries have some form of family allowance. If claimed: children qualify for benefits in their own country, why “The longer we are in Britain, the more rights to social security should our taxpayers be expected to support them? If we are given and the better we are taking advantage of them.” we could afford it, I would rather that every family in It gave advice on how to claim and described the case of Britain had child benefit as a right that was not means- one Polish migrant who was given a two-bedroom house tested—as used to be the case—instead of rationing it, shortly after applying to a housing association without especially since it now appears that any money that is any need to join a waiting list. The paper said: saved is then swallowed up in our burgeoning welfare “The formalities concerning an application for social security bill, which must include payments for EU children and are extremely simple. Do not delay in submitting an application.” families who do not even live here. If we are expected to make cuts, I want to cut back on this scam, which takes Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Does my the UK taxpayer for a fool. hon. Friend agree that the NHS should also do more to reclaim the costs of treating EU nationals? Those costs Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I congratulate can be a very great burden on hospitals such as mine in my hon. Friend on her excellent speech. I do not believe Treliske. in the free movement of labour across the EU. However, if we are to have this system and if we are to have Mrs Main: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I will reciprocity between nations, would it not make sense touch only on some of the benefits, but the actual list is that, when someone moves from Poland to this country, almost endless. We cannot delude ourselves and think they should be entitled to receive the same child benefit that people will not know about the loopholes or the that they would get in Poland? In other words, they benefit pots. According to Martin Beckford and Matthew should receive the rate of benefit that they would receive Day, writing in The Daily Telegraph in November 2008, in their home country.That way, we would have reciprocity jobcentre staff in Poland encouraged returning migrants across the EU, but we would not have to shell out in Poland to continue to claim jobseeker’s allowance billions to other EU nationals. from Britain, rather than sign on for Polish unemployment benefit, which pays much lower amounts. A quick trawl Mrs Main: My hon. Friend has anticipated my next on the internet shows how EU migrants can get a point, but I think that he will be shocked at what he will myriad of advice on how to claim a range of our hear. The figures speak for themselves. I have taken the benefits. We must be under no illusions. We are seen as a case of one three-year-old child, because I know that soft touch, and we will be exploited by those who have there are various rules and regulations, depending on the full might of EU law behind them. whether a child has a disability and so on. In the UK, Perversely, we are expecting our own citizens to bite child benefit for one three-year-old child is £87.97; in the bullet on cuts in order to help slash the massive Poland, it is £14.99; in Bulgaria, it is £15.87; and in budget deficit, yet at the same time we are widening the Romania, it is £8.67. Those are the equivalent figures pool of foreign EU families who are eligible to make a for euros at today’s rate. We should ask ourselves, “If claim from the UK benefit pot. What we save in one you could claim at a higher UK level, why wouldn’t corner we pay out in another. Benefit payments to you?” newcomers from eastern Europe and other parts of the Hon. Members might be surprised to learn that we EU are not specifically recorded by the Department for are not only paying child benefit here, at our rate, if an Work and Pensions, but unofficial estimates put the bill EU worker is eligible to claim it, but apparently we are at a very conservative £200 million a year—that probably also topping up dependants in countries whose largesse does not include the NHS—and growing. Teasing out does not meet the standards of our own largesse. We firm data on this has been difficult. In a series of should be asking ourselves, “Why are we paying top-ups questions, I have been told by the DWP that the data to less generous countries where the level of child are not recorded or are not available due to cost. However, benefit has obviously been set at one that the country I was pleased to be assured by the Secretary of State for deems acceptable?” When conducting research for this Work and Pensions on 20 June that he has commissioned debate, I was staggered to be told only yesterday by the his officials to look at alternative ways of making the international child benefit team, which is part of Her information available. Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, that the rules allow for The child benefit bombshell has been widely covered top-ups to be claimed to top up lower rates elsewhere. in the media from The Daily Telegraph to the tabloids. I So, when one EU migrant worker is in the UK with a find it hard to look ordinary middle-class families in the spouse working in their country of origin, such as eye, particularly families with a mum who stays at Poland, and with their children receiving that country’s home, and say, “Apparently, you are so wealthy with child benefit, we will top it up to the level of UK child one of you earning just more than £44,000, you must benefit. That is madness. give up your child benefit so that a family in Poland, Loopholes exist in the current benefits system to such and ultimately Bulgaria, Romania or wherever within an extent that EU migrants can always find a way 71WH Benefits (EU Nationals)12 JULY 2011 Benefits (EU Nationals) 72WH

[Mrs Main] believe that Britain will be firmly behind him in resisting dishing out benefit payments to EU migrants such as around the system, if they are resourceful. As has been Ms Patmalniece. reported widely in the Daily Express and other newspapers, I am sure that my constituents and hon. Members by declaring themselves self-employed Bulgarians and here in Westminster Hall today have read with interest Romanians get around our weak transitional arrangements articles in the Daily Mail and other newspapers covering on restricting access to the labour market simply by the Dutch approach to pulling up the drawbridge on selling The Big Issue and paying a nominal contribution workless and benefit migrants amid angry allegations of £2.50 in national insurance per week, which then that labour migrants in the Netherlands are abusing the opens up a lucrative stream of other benefits. The benefits system. In many countries, there is a rising tide TaxPayers Alliance has described that system as a scam, of disquiet over EU migrant tourism. I hope that the and it is right to do so. We are the politicians; what are Minister takes note and joins Holland in saying no to we going to do about this situation? It is a ridiculous this sloppy and misplaced altruism. If that sentiment state of affairs that I believe will foster social unrest, catches on across Europe, perhaps a bit of collective discrimination and most importantly resentment. common sense will prevail. I know that fairness works both ways. The fact that Our national autonomy is being eroded by the EU, so many newspaper editorials are addressing this thorny which must stop. There is an old adage that good fences issue shows the depth of public concern, and I pay make for good neighbours. How much more important tribute to those newspapers and urge them to keep up is it for us to reclaim our boundaries and our borders? the pressure. With their help, we can hopefully give Tackling this benefits time bomb must now be a priority Britain a strong voice when we stand up to this nonsense. for the Government. There is no Government money, only taxpayers’ money, so give us back our say over how Let us not forget that we have the poor, the young we spend taxpayers’ money, whom we can help and how and the elderly living in increasing poverty in our own we can do it. I am sick of having to find wriggle room country. According to the Poverty Site, some 13.5 million within regulations that we find incomprehensible and people in the UK—around a fifth of the population—exist that disadvantage ordinary hard-working families in on or below the poverty line, and yet we are rationing the UK, who pay their taxes to fund services in this money to send it to even poorer citizens elsewhere in the country and not to dish out benefits to some cash-strapped EU. Sadly, poverty is always relative, and so our citizens EU member country that has its hand out. will lose out. I know that I have given the Minister a lot to think A staggering case of opportunistic lifestyle enhancement about today and I am happy for him to write to me was recently reported in The Economist under the headline, about any of the issues that I have raised. However, I “Keeping the coffers shut”. The Economist reported want to hear that the Government are stiffening their how Galina Patmalniece came to Britain after 40 years resolve to tackle this problem, which I believe will only working in Latvia’s factories and kitchens with only her get worse and worse. Latvian state pension to support her, which was as little as £50 a month. She applied in the UK for a means-tested 1.46 pm pension top-up of £133 for a single person. She was denied that top-up, but meanwhile she got council The Minister of State, Department for Work and housing. To cut a long story short, she appealed to the Pensions (Steve Webb): I congratulate the hon. Member Court of Appeal, which said that the Government were for St Albans (Mrs Main) on securing this debate on entitled to withhold benefit. The basic issue at stake was what she rightly says is an important issue, which I whether the conditions that Britain imposes for giving know is of concern to the Minister of State, Department out pensions were compatible with the rule of EU law, for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member which prevents discrimination on grounds of nationality. for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling). He has responsibility Broadly speaking, an EU national must be able to for employment issue and ordinarily, he would have support themselves, so with no family or work and only responded to this debate, but unfortunately he is unable her Latvian pension to support her, Ms Patmalniece to do so. As I shall explain, he is already taking steps to had no right to reside here, although we made no effort address some of the issues the hon. Lady raised today. to deport her. It is a common theme that Britain does As she knows, as things stand the Department for Work not remove EU migrants who cannot support themselves, and Pensions’ benefit payment systems do not record even though we are allowed to do so. the nationality of people receiving benefits. The reason for that is that nationality per se is not a condition of On 8 March this year, the Supreme Court found in entitlement, and the system records conditions of the case of Ms Patmalniece that the British requirements entitlement such as being available for and actively amounted only to indirect discrimination. A majority seeking work, in the case of jobseeker’s allowance, or of the Supreme Court judges agreed that our approach meeting contribution conditions for contributory benefits was reasonable. However, the European Commission such as the state pension. So a person’s nationality is might decide that it wishes to challenge that ruling and not, of itself, an entitlement condition. bring an infringement action against Britain in the The hon. Lady gave a figure—I think it was £200 million European Court of Justice. The Commission has already —but the truth is that we do not know what the figure is, written to our Government expressing unhappiness about which is a matter of concern. I assure her that Ministers our approach in this case as well as about other restrictions are concerned about the lack of data, and we know that on the access of EU nationals to benefits. I believe that other Members share that concern. We consider it right that letter has been described as being of quite a threatening that we should know the extent to which people from nature. Will the Minister update us on that case? I other countries are claiming benefits in the UK. I am 73WH Benefits (EU Nationals)12 JULY 2011 Benefits (EU Nationals) 74WH therefore sure she will be pleased that the Minister with by doing a menial job such as selling The Big Issue or responsibility for employment announced at oral questions another such publication. That is the problem: the list last month that he has commissioned work to find does not seem to prohibit anybody. means of making information available about the nationality of benefit claimants. That information would help to Steve Webb: When I looked at the list I wondered inform debate on this subject. whether someone could say, “Oh, I am looking for a To provide some context, I will discuss immigration job.”That is not sufficient. The definition of a workseeker more generally. The right hon. Member for Oxford East would be similar to the requirements placed on someone (Mr Smith), who is himself a former Secretary of State claiming jobseeker’s allowance, for example. I take the for Work and Pensions, talked about the positive impact hon. Lady’s point that there may be loopholes that need that inward migrants can have. We fully recognise that to be looked at. However, if someone says they have positive impact, and we will continue to encourage the come here to look for a job, it not enough merely to brightest and the best to come to the UK to promote assert it; they have to provide evidence that they are growth and enterprise here. However, we will reduce the actively doing so. Let me now make a bit of progress, as degree to which we currently rely on migrant workers I am keen to respond to the points the hon. Lady has through a radical shake-up of the welfare system and by raised. improving the skills of the British work force. Our goal The failure of past policies has left many people as a Department is to ensure that people are better continuously on out-of-work benefits for more than a prepared, have more incentive and face more requirements decade, 90% of them on incapacity benefits. Many of to take up work in the UK, which will mean that our fellow citizens want to work but have not been demand for migrant workers can be reduced. Clearly, provided with the help and support they need. The although immigration has enriched our culture and crucial point is that one reason why employers take on strengthened our economy, it must be properly managed. EU migrants is that many of our fellow citizens have not been effective participants in the labour market. Mrs Main: The Minister is making a valid point. The Secretary of State is determined to change that However, when I looked at the statistics on this issue, I through the Work programme and universal credit, to was shocked to realise that some of these migrant try to ensure that when employers are looking at a list of workers are hugely overqualified for the jobs they come potential employees, the UK citizen—the domestic here to do. I am not disputing that we are attracting well worker—is a credible alternative to the EU migrant. We qualified people, but they are not qualified to do the believe that the success of those policies will reduce the jobs they are doing; if anything, they are overqualified demand for EU migrants in the situation described by for them. We have a problem, in that we have a dearth of the hon. Lady. people who want to do those low-skilled jobs, so we On access to benefits, EU nationals have rights under have qualified people coming in to do them. That is the the European treaties to enter and remain in the UK, problem and I do not see how we will solve it. including the right to seek and take up work. Where EU nationals are here in exercise of a treaty right, the UK, Steve Webb: No, I do not see how we can solve that, through its obligations under both European and in the sense that, if we have a single labour market we international law, allows them access to income-related cannot constrain individuals who bring particular skills benefits. As the hon. Lady says, EU nationals who are and prevent them from doing jobs that are, as it were, working here have access to in-work benefits, such as less demanding than the skills they bring in. That is housing benefit, council tax benefit and child tax credits. correct. If they are unemployed and looking for employment, The hon. Lady raised the question of benefits claimed they may also claim income-based jobseeker’s allowance. by the nationals of other EU member states working in There will, however, be some who have no intention of the UK. I shall explain what they are. In preparing for seeking work—benefit tourists, as the hon. Lady says—and the debate, I had to find out how the system works and they may try to access benefits. We do not believe, on was surprised by some of what I learned. the whole, that that is the main reason why people come here, but we accept it is a danger and it is one of our Under the freedom of movement rules, as we have concerns. just heard, many UK nationals are living and working in other EU countries and have reciprocal rights. Free That is why we have rules in place to prevent the movement of persons is fundamental to Community abuse of the benefits system and benefit tourism. The law; indeed, it is an essential element of European principal measure is the habitual residence test, which citizenship. However, the rights are not unlimited. Those ensures that income-related benefits are paid to people who wish to live in the UK for longer than three months with reasonably close ties to the UK and who intend to must be exercising a treaty right as a worker, a workseeker, settle here. Its underlying principle is that the taxpayer a self-employed person, someone of their own means should not have to subsidise people with very tenuous and self-sufficient, or a student. If EU citizens do not links to this country. meet one of those requirements, they will not have a right to reside in the UK, and may be liable to removal. Mrs Main: Will the Minister give way? The Government are clear that EU citizens who benefit from the right to free movement must adhere to the Steve Webb: Will the hon. Lady allow me to make a responsibilities it brings and abide by our laws. bit more progress, as she has raised a lot of points and I have got only seven minutes to respond? Mrs Main: The problem is that that list covers just To be eligible for an income-related benefit of the about everything. As I have said, anybody who cannot sort listed, claimants must satisfy the two-part habitual do a particular thing can declare themselves self-employed residence test—I may be coming to the point the hon. 75WH Benefits (EU Nationals)12 JULY 2011 Benefits (EU Nationals) 76WH

[Steve Webb] wages and taxes. Therefore, the parallel entitlement is to a UK benefit. I understand the emotional reaction that Lady was going to raise. That requires the individual we probably all have when we hear that. first to demonstrate that they have a right to reside here In the few minutes remaining I should move on to the and, secondly, to show that they are habitually resident. question of EU citizenship and access to benefits—what Anyone who does not have a right to reside is not is called benefit exportability. Since the UK joined the habitually resident, and is not entitled to any income-related EEC in 1973, it has been part of the system for co-ordinating benefits. social security for people who move between member To clarify, the term “habitual residence” is not defined states. The rules protect UK citizens abroad as well as specifically in UK social security legislation. To determine EU citizens who come to the UK. Every EU member actual habitual residence, decision makers look at a state has exclusive responsibility for organising and range of things that we think should rightly be taken financing its national social security schemes, and for into account, such as whether the person is returning to setting out the conditions governing entitlement, provided resume past habitual residence; attachment to and intentions that they comply with the principles of equal treatment in the UK; reasons for coming; employment record; and non-discrimination on grounds of nationality.However, and length and continuity of residence in another country. there are EU regulations on the co-ordination of social The information is gathered by interviewing the claimant, security to ensure that, where someone has earned an and decision makers must be satisfied on objective entitlement, they do not lose it because they have moved grounds that a person who claims income-related benefits between member states. That is to remove one of the after arriving in the country has genuinely adopted the barriers to the free movement of workers, which is one UK as his or her place of habitual residence. of the basic tenets of the EU’s internal market. The rules set out under what circumstances a person Mrs Main: I have had all that information from a retains, or can claim, social security benefits when they series of questions I have tabled. I was shocked to move between member states. In particular, the rules realise that people need to be resident for only a month protect workers who live in one member state and work or possibly even less, which is open to interpretation by in another. On the question of adding things together, the individual doing the interview. That is a very low people coming into the UK may be entitled to benefits bar. on the basis of their social insurance payments in another member state; and people going from the UK can be entitled to benefits in another member state on Steve Webb: Although the hon. Lady is right to say the basis of their UK national insurance. That is known that a month enables someone to be considered, I have as aggregation—where a person’s contributions are added listed the criteria that the decision makers have to apply, together to give them entitlement. The country that and I suspect a lot of those would be hard to satisfy pays, however, is still usually the country where the after a month. So, although that is technically true, I person is working or last worked. Again, that makes the suspect that in many cases people have been here for a point that the payment that is made is not necessarily lot longer. something for nothing; it may well be something for Child benefit, which has been mentioned, is clearly something. In the case of a British worker, the contribution quite cyclical in terms of foreign nationals coming to may have been made in the UK before they left, or, in the UK. The hon. Lady was right to praise the hon. the case of a foreign worker, in their home country Member for Witham (Priti Patel), who established through before they came here. There is a reciprocal arrangement. a written question that the number of families getting I turn to the question of topping up child benefit and child benefit for children in Poland was, in October child tax credits paid, for example, in Poland. Let us 2009, just under 23,000. However, the answer to that take the example of a family in which dad is in the UK question showed that that figure fell to 17,000 in July and mum is at home with the children. If dad is paying 2010. I can provide an update today—the figure fell national insurance and mum is at home, we would pay again to just over 16,000 in June 2011. There has been a full UK child benefit to the family, in return for his 29% fall in the number of Polish people working here national insurance. That is what he is paying for. However, and claiming child benefit for children at home. I am if mum was working and therefore earning some Polish sure the hon. Member for St Albans would say that that benefits, we would top up. Funnily enough, although is 16,000 too many. people say it is strange that we are topping up Polish However, it is worth stressing that such situations are benefits, when we do so we are paying less money than not static. They change, and in this case there has been a when we are not topping up but paying the full amount. fall of more than a quarter. The reason for the payment These are clearly complex and difficult issues. Once is that it is only made in respect of UK national there is a single labour market with free movement, a lot insurance contributions. That is an important part of of things follow that are difficult to disentangle. However, the mix. We are paying the benefit to somebody who is I can reassure the hon. Lady that the Minister of State, putting money into the UK Exchequer through national Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. insurance. We have a legal duty to pay at the higher rate. Friend the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell is In his intervention, the hon. Member for Kettering seized of the importance of the issues and, I hope, will (Mr Hollobone) asked whether we should pay at the be able to make progress on them in due course. Polish, rather than the British rate. The courts have Question put and agreed to. determined that we have to pay at the higher rate. The logic is that the entitlement is based on UK national 1.59 pm insurance contributions, which will be based on UK Sitting adjourned. 11WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JULY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS Written Ministerial ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Crown Estate Leases for Offshore Renewables Projects Statements (Oil and Gas Clause)

Tuesday 12 July 2011 The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne): For some years, Crown Estate leases for offshore renewables projects, and agreements for lease, including leases and agreements for lease for the cables ATTORNEY-GENERAL transporting the electricity to land, have contained a clause allowing the Crown Estate to determine the lease, in whole or in part, at my request, where this is Alignment of Prosecutions (DEFRA and CPS) necessary to enable an oil or gas project to proceed. The clause does not however make any reference to the provision of compensation to the lease holder, and this The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): My right has become a matter of concern, particularly as regards hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, the prospects of attracting finance for offshore renewables Food and Rural Affairs and I have agreed the forthcoming projects. Following discussions by my Department with arrangements between the Department for Environment, Renewable UK and Oil and Gas UK, I would therefore Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) and the Crown like to clarify my approach on the question of my giving Prosecution Service (CPS) for the conduct of prosecutions. consent under the Petroleum Act 1998 for any oil and Currently DEFRA prosecutions are conducted by an gas development (that is, for the drilling of any well, for in-house prosecutions team that is part of DEFRA’s the installation of production facilities, or for the legal team. The forthcoming change is that the conduct construction of a pipeline), where it appears that the of such prosecutions will be assigned by the Attorney- development can proceed only if the oil and gas clause General, with the agreement of the Secretary of State in a renewables lease, or agreement for lease, is invoked. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, to the Director First, as regards the granting of consent in general, I of Public Prosecutions under section 3(2)(g) of the should note that there have been instances in which Prosecution of Offences Act 1985, and DEFRA legal’s proposals for new oil and gas developments have been five prosecution posts will transfer to the CPS. potentially in conflict with the development intentions The transfer will take place on 1 September 2011. of others who have existing rights in the same or in an adjacent area. It is clearly of great importance that oil DEFRA and the CPS have considered carefully the and gas licensees, in planning their exploration work, benefits of the changes and agree that the new structure and where relevant in working up proposals for producing will provide a better strategic fit for prosecutions. The a new field, should take full account of any potentially new arrangement will provide greater resilience in the conflicting interests. Where it appears that the envisaged conduct of DEFRA prosecutions, and the team conducting oil and gas development may in practice conflict in any those cases would have improved access to the range of degree with activities already permitted, the licensee specialist teams in the CPS that are not available in a should consult with the other rights holders and so far small in-house team. The team would also have access as possible seek an agreed way forward acceptable to to the CPS’s network of advocates serving courts locally. both sides. Some aspects of these consultation processes The new arrangements provide for strong liaison, are already covered by advice and guidance issued by partnership and accountability between DEFRA and my Department to petroleum licensees. But I have asked the CPS. for advice on what further guidance on these matters, My right hon. Friend is also pleased to announce that and on the procedures by which licensees have to apply with effect from 1 September 2011 the remainder of for my consent under the Petroleum Act, would be DEFRA’s legal team will transfer to the Treasury Solicitor’s appropriate in today’s circumstances. I note in this Department. This transfer will provide greater resilience, context that the Petroleum Act, as amended by the flexibility and efficiency in the delivery of legal services Energy Act 2004, provides that in making such a consenting to DEFRA. decision, I may have regard, specifically, to activities for or in connection with the generation of electricity, or proposals to carry on such activities. Secondly, in any case in which an oil and gas licensee CABINET OFFICE seeks consent for a development, and it appears that the development can proceed only if the oil and gas clause in a renewables lease, or agreement for lease, is invoked, National School of Government I would not be prepared to request that action by the Crown Estate, or to give consent to the proposed development, unless payment of appropriate compensation The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster to the lease holder for the loss of value of his interests General (Mr Francis Maude): The 2010-11 annual report had first been assured by negotiation and commercial and accounts for the National School of Government agreement between the two parties. In such circumstances, was laid before Parliament today. The report has been I would seek confirmation from the affected leaseholder placed in the Library of the House for the reference of that agreement had been reached on acceptable terms, Members and copies will be made available in the Vote before reaching any decision on consent under the Office. Petroleum Act for the oil and gas development. 13WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JULY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 14WS

Exceptionally, where the licensee has exercised all to ensure that all fish stocks should be fished within the reasonable endeavours to reach such a negotiated agreement, threshold of maximum sustainable yield (MSY) by but has been unable to do so, I may be prepared to 2015 and where there was insufficient scientific advice consider requesting determination of some part of the or data the precautionary approach should be adopted lease or agreement for lease if the appropriate compensation and a cut of 25% should be applied to the TAC. for loss of value has been assessed by an independent Commissioner Damanaki also explained that she intended third party and the licensee commits to appropriate to split the TQR into two parts this year in order to arrangements to secure the payment of that compensation. improve the process: “internal” stocks to be decided at The prospective loss to the lease holder should be the November Council and “external” (those subject to valued by the independent third party, on the general international negotiations, principally joint EU-Norway principle of equivalence as applied in circumstances of stocks) in December. compulsory purchase, which aims to put the claimant in There was near universal opposition to the idea of the same position, so far as financial compensation can the 25% cut for data-poor stocks with 19 of the 22 fishing do so, as if the lease or agreement for lease had not in member states (and Austria) explicitly opposing this. fact been determined. There was concern that this approach would merely For clarity, I reiterate that in the absence of either a increase levels of discarded fish in many cases and that commercial agreement between the parties, or of the a more targeted approach, using all available data or provision of independently assessed compensation for advice, even incomplete, would be preferable. the renewables leaseholder, I would not be prepared to There was widespread concern among all fishing request the determination in whole or in part of any member states about aspects of the MSY principle. renewables lease or agreement for lease, or to grant Nearly all noted that 2015 was the target for all fisheries consent to the proposed oil and gas development. The and that this should be achieved on a gradual basis. The lease holder would remain free to take forward his UK, along with Ireland, Spain, Belgium and coastal project as previously envisaged. state in the Baltic expressed concern about how individual My officials will discuss with the interested parties species MSY targets could be identified correctly in a suitable practical arrangements to give effect to this multi-species environment. policy, including a process for appointing a suitable The UK, Spain, Denmark, France, Ireland, Belgium, person or body to undertake the independent third Portugal and Austria also expressed concern about the party valuation where that might be necessary. Suitable idea of splitting the TQR decision-making across two guidance will be developed in consultation with leaseholders Councils, creating administrative inefficiency. or prospective leaseholders and the oil and gas industry. In response Commissioner Damanaki emphasised The Crown Estate are considering how this policy the need to follow scientific advice and in the absence of can be appropriately reflected in the suite of documentation such advice there had to be a precautionary approach. for individual leases, and how the documentation of MSY had to be achieved by 2015 and this could be done existing leases can be updated. on a gradual basis up to then, but could not be delayed. I should add that I do not see these issues as impacting She was open to look at the November-December split on the granting of oil and gas licences, as these do not to ensure that stocks related to the EU-Norway negotiations convey any consent for development. As at present, were not set in November but she wanted to stick to licence applicants or prospective applicants will have deciding things as early as possible. access to-up-to date information on consented There were three points raised under any other business. developments, and on areas leased or zoned for other The first item saw Ireland express serious concerns types of development, so that their acceptance of any about unrestricted mackerel fishing by Iceland and the licence can be based on an up-to-date understanding of Faeroe Islands. Setting autonomous quotas significantly potentially conflicting development intentions in the higher than scientific advice threatened to damage one area in question. of the EU’s most valuable, and previously sustainable stocks. Ireland pressed for EU action in the form an immediate ban on all mackerel landings and all imports ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS of mackerel products. The UK supported these concerns and emphasised the possibility of high-level international Agriculture and Fisheries Council action to find a political solution. France, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Germany, Spain and Portugal also supported Ireland. The Commission agreed that The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and action was needed but noted that it could only act Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): The Under-Secretary within the appropriate legal framework. Commissioner of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my Damanaki said she was talking to Trade Commissioner hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) De Gucht about finding a more effective legal instrument who is responsible for natural environment and fisheries and she hoped to be able to propose something in the represented the United Kingdom at the Agriculture and autumn. Fisheries Council in Luxembourg on 28 June. Richard The second item was a report back from the Netherlands Lochhead MSP also attended. This was the final Agriculture on the high-level conference on common fisheries policy and Fisheries Council under the Hungarian presidency. reform that took place in Noordwijk in March 2011. Commissioner Damanaki spoke about the Commission’s The final fisheries item was a declaration from Bulgaria, proposed framework for setting catch levels for 2012 Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, and beyond via the total allowable catch (TAC) and Poland and Romania asking for appropriate levels of quota regulation (TQR). Against a backdrop of the funding for fisheries as part of the new structural funding poor state of many EU fish stocks and the continued arrangements. In particular they emphasised the need issue of overfishing, the Commission announced its aim for modernisation, research and innovation and small-scale 15WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JULY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS fisheries to be sufficiently funded in the context of CFP on the table to resolve the difficulties and allow the full reform. There was also a demand for a greater focus on spending to proceed, should the Council agree it. Germany, aquaculture. Slovenia, Malta and Slovakia also broadly the Netherlands and UK all said they did not agree—this supported the declaration. Italy, France, Spain, Belgium, was a social programme, for national Governments, not Portugal and Ireland drew attention to a declaration something for the CAP. Poland indicated they would that they had recently sent to the Commission which bring the issue to the Council for decision under their was largely similar, but which also emphasised the need presidency. for the economic and social objectives of the CFP to be The two final items under any other business were properly funded. The Commission said that the new reports back from the French on the recent G20 meeting funding instrument would prioritise sustainable fishing, of agriculture ministers, and from Hungary two conferences research, aquaculture (inland and marine) and would they had held on the future of livestock sector and on be administratively simpler. organic farming. There was no further discussion. On agriculture, the main item concerned the Commission’s response to the E. coli crisis. Commissioner HEALTH Dalli updated the Council on the public health aspects of the crisis. He also explained the actions taken to get Health Act 2006 (Post-legislative Assessment) Russia to lift its export ban on EU fruit and vegetables; an agreement had been reached, although some implementation action was still needed, and exports The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): were resuming. Member states welcomed the agreement I have today laid before Parliament “Post-Legislative with Russia, and wanted to see its full and rapid Assessment of the Health Act 2006”, Cm 8115, implementation. All agreed on the need to review the the Government’s memorandum to the Health Select operation of EU food safety alert systems and learn Committee, which provides a preliminary assessment of lessons from the outbreak. The UK stated that the the Health Act 2006. The main purposes of the Act are protection of consumers must be the first priority, and to ensure protection from the health dangers of second-hand noted that the EU alert systems had worked well in the tobacco smoke; to provide a statutory footing to reduce recent French outbreak, allowing supply chains to be levels of health care associated infection; and to provide rapidly traced across several member states. for safer management of controlled drugs, and improvements to pharmacy and ophthalmic services, as Commissioner Ciolos (Agriculture) explained the well changes to the administration of the NHS. measures he had put in place to support affected growers, amounting to a budget of ¤210 million. Member states Copies of the memorandum are available to hon. needed to provide the necessary verified data rapidly to Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from ensure good audit standards, and decisions on how to the Printed Paper Office. apportion the money would be made at the Management Committee on 22 July. He argued that this reinforced HOME DEPARTMENT the case as part of CAP reform for giving the Commission more scope to intervene in such crises. The Commission UK Threat Level also stated it would find an extra ¤5 million to support promotional campaigns over the coming years. The The Secretary of State for the Home Department main grower member states welcomed the Commission’s (Mrs Theresa May): Yesterday, 11 July, the Joint Terrorism action, and the increased budget, while bemoaning the Analysis Centre (JTAC) changed the UK threat level bureaucratic difficulty of securing the necessary information from international terrorism from severe to substantial. to support claims. Belgium, Italy, Portugal, Greece, This means that a terrorist attack is a strong possibility. Austria wanted more products adding the list of those eligible for compensation or the criteria loosened to The change in the threat level to substantial does not allow compensation for having sold at a low price but mean the overall threat has gone away, there remains a there were no loud calls for a bigger budget. The UK real and serious threat against the United Kingdom and stressed the importance of restoring consumer confidence I would ask the public to remain vigilant. to allow producers to get their returns from the market The decision to change the threat level is taken by not subsidies. The Commission noted the need to act JTAC independently of Ministers and is based on the quickly and simply meant an EU-wide approach, although very latest intelligence, considering factors such as capability, member states could add national mechanisms (state intent and time scale. “Substantial” continues to indicate aids) on top if they so wished. He stressed that proper a high-level of threat; and that an attack might well audit was essential to ensure appropriate financial occur without further warning. The threat level is kept management. under constant review. There were three agricultural items under any other Contest (UK Strategy for Countering Terrorism) business. The first related to the food for deprived persons programme. Italy called for rapid action to ensure the food for deprived persons programme could The Secretary of State for the Home Department continue at its planned level of funding (¤500 million a (Mrs Theresa May): I have today published a revised year) following the recent European Court of Justice version of Contest: The United Kingdom’s strategy for ruling that would heavily restrict it. Belgium, Slovenia, countering terrorism. Copies will be available in the Cyprus, France, Hungary and Poland agreed. The Vote Office. Commission stated that the European Court of Justice International counter-terrorism work has made very ruling would limit funds to what was available from significant progress over the past 10 years. Al-Qaeda is intervention sales, about ¤130 million for 2012 and weaker than at any time since 9/11. It has not conducted nothing in 2013, but there was a Commission proposal a successful attack here since 2005. It has played no role 17WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JULY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS in recent political change in north Africa and the middle The threat endures but al-Qaeda is significantly weaker east. Its ideology has been widely discredited and it has than it has been for 10 years. There are opportunities failed in all its objectives. Continued international pressure for us and our allies to seize the opportunities we have can further reduce its capability, and the UK must work now to further enhance our security and reduce the with other countries to seize those opportunities in the threats we face. This strategy is intended to enable us to coming months and years. do so. But al-Qaeda continues to be a significant threat and other terrorist groups, some affiliated to al-Qaeda—notably JUSTICE in Yemen and Somalia—have emerged over the past two years to be a substantial threat in their own right. Public Bodies Reform The threat from Northern Ireland related terrorism has also increased. The scale of the threat and of activity to contain it is reflected in the number of arrests and The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice convictions here for terrorist related offences. These (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Today I have laid before Parliament figures remain high. The Government will continue to a public consultation document; “Consultation on reforms give the highest importance to their counter-terrorism proposed in the Public Bodies Bill—Reforming the work. public bodies of the Ministry of Justice”. The aim of our counter-terrorist strategy is to reduce The consultation details our reform proposals in the risk to the UK and UK interests so that people can relation to those Ministry of Justice bodies included in go about their lives freely and with confidence. the Public Bodies Bill, which is currently before this The scope of the strategy has been broadened to House. While clause 10 of the Bill requires consultation cover all forms of terrorism and has been changed to of certain specified groups, I have decided that this reflect the Government’s security and counter-terrorism should be a public consultation to ensure details of my policies. Department’s proposals are available to as many interested parties as possible. Under our “Pursue” work, the purpose of which is to Reducing the number and costs of public bodies is a stop terrorist attacks, we have already reviewed the key Government commitment and the proposals in this most controversial counter-terrorism and security powers consultation build on previous announcements relating which have been in place here and made significant to public bodies reform. All Ministry of Justice public changes to them. They are now more effective and more bodies have been reviewed over the last year. We have proportionate. We will work hard to maintain intelligence considered whether particular bodies and their associated coverage of terrorist-related activity here and give the functions are still needed and assessed our public bodies intelligence and security services and the police the against agreed criteria for reform. These criteria were capabilities they need. We will continue to try to prosecute intended to increase Government accountability; eliminate or deport more of those who have been engaged in duplication of activity and discontinue activities that terrorist-related activity; and we will support foreign no longer need to take place. Governments in building their capacity to deal with terrorism overseas. I am confident that the proposed reforms set out in the consultation document will address these aims and We have revised work on “Prevent”—which aims to enable the Ministry of Justice to make a significant stop people being drawn into terrorist activity—and contribution to the Government’s reform of public have already published a comprehensive assessment or bodies. work to date and a statement of our future strategy. Like Contest as a whole “Prevent” has increased in I will carefully consider the consultation responses scope to deal with all forms of terrorism and also to before bringing forward any order in relation to any of more clearly tackle extremism which is conducive to the Ministry of Justice bodies in the Bill. terrorist activity and can draw people towards it. We will make a clearer distinction between our “Prevent” Immigration Advisory Service work and our programmes to support integration. Our focus will be on challenging ideology, supporting vulnerable The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice people, and working with key sectors where radicalisation (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): It is with regret that the trustees may occur. of the Immigration Advisory Service (IAS) decided that In our “Protect” work, we will continue to respond to the organisation had to enter into administration on recent threats to aviation security.We will further strengthen Friday 8 July 2011. our borders—notably through the formation of the This is clearly a sad situation for all involved. The National Crime Agency—and the protection of our Legal Services Commission (LSC) has worked closely critical infrastructure. For “Prepare”—our contingency with IAS over the last few years and IAS has received planning—we have learnt lessons from previous terrorist substantial support to help them manage their cash attacks. We will continue to build our capabilities to flow and run its business within the LSC’s contracted respond to a Mumbai style attack; to address the highest payment system. When LSC took over responsibility in impact terrorist risks, including an attack which might 2004 for funding IAS, the LSC agreed to more favourable make use of unconventional weapons; and to resolve transitional arrangements with IAS than were agreed issues of interoperability between the emergency services. with other not-for-profit organisations. The London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games However, a recent contract compliance audit by the will be the biggest sporting event in our history. Terrorism Legal Services Commission, has provisionally identified poses the greatest security threat to the games. Ensuring that a material proportion (amounting to several millions the security of the Olympics will be an absolute priority of pounds) of the £15 million paid annually to IAS is over the coming year. over or misclaimed work. This is often where the work 19WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JULY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS carried out does not have appropriate documentation many people trapped inside an adversarial statutory to prove its validity, most commonly where there is a system because they have been unable to access sufficient lack of evidence confirming clients’ eligibility. As well support to help them make alternative arrangements. as this, work was conducted which was not within the In our response, we reaffirm our commitment to scope of public funding. The LSC, as a responsible establishing a better network of support for parents so public body, is rightly seeking to recoup this money. It is they can deal with maintenance issues in the broader of course crucial that the Government achieve value for context of the emotional and practical issues they face public money and the LSC must be able to demonstrate at separation, and to make it easier for them to make to the Comptroller and Auditor General that it is in family-based arrangements which are in the best interests control of the funds it administers and takes appropriate of their children. We will continue working with experts action where the terms of its contracts are not complied in the voluntary and community sector, as well as with with. the Department for Education and Ministry of Justice, There have been extensive efforts on the parts of both to translate this vision into reality. IAS and the LSC to negotiate a solution to the current Sir David Henshaw’s 2006 report into child maintenance financial position, but the scale of the debt, coupled recommended charging for use of the statutory service with projected income levels, has led the trustees to as an essential part of changing the behaviour of parents conclude that placing the organisation in administration and encouraging them to work collaboratively to take is a necessary step. The current position reflects the responsibility for the welfare of their children. We remain company’s past financial management and claims committed to implementing the previous Government’s irregularities and is not a direct consequence of the legislation which took forward Henshaw’s recommendation proposed legal aid reforms, not least because these and provided for charging. Within this we will continue reforms have yet to be implemented. to work with interested and expert groups to ensure that The primary concern for the Government and the particularly vulnerable parents are supported appropriately, LSC is now to ensure clients of IAS continue to get the and we remain committed to delivering an improved help they need. The LSC expects that the administration statutory scheme that is accessible. We will consult on of IAS will allow a managed close down process of specific rates in due course, prior to regulations being IAS’s activities and an orderly transfer of clients to new laid in Parliament. providers. Provisional arrangements have been made to As part of our commitment to ensuring that the ensure that any emergency cases are dealt with speedily, needs of vulnerable people are protected, victims of meanwhile the LSC is identifying alternative advice domestic violence will be fast-tracked to the statutory provision in the areas affected and arrangements for service with no application fee. Families on out of work case transfer will follow as soon as possible. benefits will retain 100% of their welfare benefits entitlement There is a significant long-term interest in this work and a heavily discounted application fee to what remains from other providers, both not for profit organisations a heavily state subsidised statutory maintenance scheme. and private solicitor firms. The LSC ran a tender round Again, we will consult further on specific details in for new immigration and asylum contracts in October due course. last year and there was an increase in the number of We are determined to have more children benefiting offices that applied to do the work and bids for more from effective financial support and more collaborative than double the amount of cases that were available. All parenting post separation. I believe that the approach immigration and asylum providers are expected to meet we are setting out today will bring about real change the same high-quality standards which include compulsory that will make a real difference to children’s lives. accreditation schemes for all advisers and supervisors, Copies of the consultation response are available in and as such I believe the interests of the clients being the Vote Office, and will be available shortly at: transferred will be protected. http://www.dwp.gov.uk/consultations/2011/ strengthening-families.shtml Up-rating Private Occupational Pensions WORK AND PENSIONS (Move to CPI)

Child Maintenance Reform The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb): Today, the Government will publish an updated impact assessment for the move to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work using the Consumer Prices Index (CPI) as the basis for and Pensions (Maria Miller): I have today published the the statutory minimum up-rating of occupational pensions. Government’s response to “Strengthening families, This edition of the impact assessment takes account promoting parental responsibility: the future of child of research into private pension schemes rules and the maintenance” (Cm 7990). likely reaction of employers to the decision to use the We need to challenge and support families to think CPI published on 16 June 2011, and the latest Office of about their responsibilities for their children when adult Budget Responsibility estimates of RPI and CPI inflation relationships break down, to ensure the welfare of their rates. It also includes the impact of proposed amendments children comes first. It is unacceptable that more than to the Pensions Bill, which were tabled on the 7 July. 50% of children living in separated families have no A copy of the updated impact assessment will be placed effective child maintenance arrangement in place. I in the Libraries of both Houses, and will be available on believe we need to move away from a system where the the Department’s website at: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/ CSA is seen as the only option for the majority, with consultations/2010/cpi-private-pens-consultation.shtml

209W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 210W

installed without the need to apply for planning permission. Written Answers to This permitted development right is, however, subject to a prior approval process which allows planning Questions authorities to consider the siting and appearance of any cabinet before development commences. If they consider it appropriate, approval may be refused on these grounds. Tuesday 12 July 2011 Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether he has had discussions with British Telecom on agreeing a COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT code of conduct on the siting of broadband cabinets; and if he will make a statement. [65105] Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings Robert Neill: No such discussions have been held. Dr Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for The Electronic Communications Code (Conditions Communities and Local Government what uses his and Restrictions) Regulations 2003 set general conditions Department has made of the annual survey of hours for British Telecom and other code operators. This and earnings data produced by the Office for National includes the need for code operators to minimise as far Statistics in the last three years. [65288] as reasonably practicable impacts on the visual amenity of properties when installing electronic communications Robert Neill: The main use of the annual survey of apparatus. hours and earnings by the Department is for area cost Capita adjustments in the allocation of Formula Grant. It has also been used in analysis of socio-economic conditions Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for such as housing affordability, labour market mobility Communities and Local Government how many and costs, and as input to impact assessments. contracts his Department has awarded to Capita since Broadband: Planning Permission May 2010; and what the (a) individual monetary value and (b) net worth was of each contract. [62730] Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: Under a centrally approved Government Communities and Local Government what powers are agreement, the Department has an overarching contract available to local authorities to refuse planning with Capita Resourcing Ltd to supply interim management approval for the erection of broadband cabinets. and specialist contractor staff on a call off basis. The [65104] majority of the contract value shown in the following below is paid to the contractor, with a margin retained Robert Neill: Broadband cabinets have permitted by Capita which can range from 3.5% to 7.25%. The development rights under part 24 of the General Permitted following appointments have been made under the contract Development Order, which means that many can be since May 2010.

Capital original contract Contract value total (exc. Job title start date VAT) (£)

Local Government Accountancy Adviser 21 June 2011 47,104.20 Housing Reform Accounting Adviser 20 June 2011 8,043.75 Internal Audit Service European Auditor 31 May 2011 32,304.96 Regional Development Agency Transition Accountant 16 May 2011 38,416.00 Deputy IT Director 9 May 2011 33,462.00 Internal Audit Service European Auditor 9 May 2011 45,829.80 Internal Audit Service European Auditor 9 May 2011 38,191.50 Internal Audit Service European Auditor 9 May 2011 32,472.00 Regional Development Agency Transition Accountant 19 April 2011 44,296.00 Regional Development Agency Transition Accountant 19 April 2011 44,296.00 Management Accountant European Regional Development Fund Closure 13 December 2010 49,590.00 Human Resources Support Firebuy 8 November 2010 3,861.00 Environmental Impact Assessor and Land Rights Adviser 6 September 2010 18,775.80 Senior Environmental Impact Assessor and Land Rights Advisor 31 August 2010 24,621.66 Environmental Impact Assessor and Land Rights Adviser 2 August 2010 20,987.88 Territorial Facilitators 26 July 2010 48,936.66 Security and Information Manager 26 July 2010 18,759.72 Livelink Administration Support 19 July 2010 49,862.53 Senior Environmental Impact Assessor and Land Rights Adviser 19 July 2010 18,759.72 Territorial Facilitators 5 July 2010 42,978.00 Private Finance Initiative Transactor 8 June 2010 2,846.25 Territorial Facilitators 1 June 2010 47,154.00 European Auditor 10 May2010 13,786.20 Total value of new interim contracts since May 2010 725,335.63 211W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 212W

Caravan Sites: Salford assemble this information would involve disproportionate cost. However, my ministerial colleagues and I are Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for always happy to consider any request made by any hon. Communities and Local Government how many Member for a meeting on departmental business. unauthorised encampments were established in Salford and Eccles in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010. [64963] Fire Services: Yorkshire and the Humber

Andrew Stunell: According to the ‘Count of Gypsy Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for and Traveller Caravans’ undertaken bi-annually by local Communities and Local Government how many fire authorities in England including Salford Metropolitan stations there were in (a) Yo rk , (b) Yorkshire and the borough council and collated by my Department, there Humber and (c) England at 1 May (i) 1997, (ii) 2010 were no unauthorised encampments in Salford and and (iii) 2011. [65952] Eccles on the dates of the count in January and July 2008, 2009 and 2010. Robert Neill: Numbers of fire stations are held centrally Creating Strong, Safe and Prosperous Communities only at fire and rescue authority level. Accordingly, the number of fire stations by each fire Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for and rescue authority in Yorkshire and the Humber and Communities and Local Government what plans he in England are shown in the table for 1997 and 2010. has to promote user involvement in the design of Data for York are not held centrally. Figures for 2011 services following the revocation of the statutory are due for publication by September 2011. guidance, Creating Strong, Safe and Prosperous Number of fire stations in Yorkshire and the Humber and in England Communities. [64249] at 31 March 1997 and 2010 Fire and rescue Robert Neill: “Creating Strong, Safe and Prosperous authority 1997 2010 Communities”was prescriptive around how local authorities Humberside 31 30 should agree their priorities, engage their citizens, lead North Yorkshire 37 39 their communities and commission public services. Revocation of this guidance and associated duties enables South Yorkshire 24 23 local authorities to innovate and work in new ways to West Yorkshire 50 48 serve their local communities. Yorkshire and the 142 140 Humber We want to encourage authorities and civil society to collaborate more, including greater involvement for England1 1,444 1,448 voluntary groups in the design and running of public 1 Excluding the Isles of Scilly. services. In this context, we recently consulted on light Source: touch statutory guidance on the best value duty setting Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy. out some reasonable expectations of the way authorities should work with voluntary and community groups Housing Revenue Accounts and small businesses when facing difficult funding decisions. The consultation closed on 14 June and we expect to Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for provide a government response and publish final guidance Communities and Local Government (1) by how much this summer. the delegated expenditure limit of the Department of Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings Environment, Transport and the Regions changed in 2001-02 as a result of changes to the Housing Revenue Account Subsidy Scheme; [65218] Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government on how many (2) how much Annually Managed Expenditure for occasions officials in his Department have been subject major repairs in the Department for Environment, to formal disciplinary proceedings since May 2010. Transport and the Regions and its successors charged [56228] as a result of changes to the Housing Revenue Account subsidy scheme in each year since 2001-02; [65219] Robert Neill: 21 separate proceedings were undertaken (3) by how much the Departmental Expenditure during the last 12 months. Limit of the Department for Environment, Transport and the Regions was adjusted as a result of changes to Departmental Responsibilities the Housing Revenue Account in England in 2001-02; by how much that department’s annually managed Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for expenditure was increased as a result of the Communities and Local Government on how many introduction of the Major Repairs Allowance; and occasions a request for a meeting by an hon. Member what the budget lines were in each respect in each of each political party has been refused by (a) a subsequent year for which figures are available. [65291] Minister in his Department directly and (b) his Department on behalf of a Minister since May 2010. Andrew Stunell: The 2000 spending review determined [64437] that in 2001-02 £1.6 billion would be transferred from Credit Approvals, classified as Capital Departmental Robert Neill: The Department does not hold Expenditure Limit to Housing Revenue Account subsidy, comprehensive records of whether requests for meetings classified as Annually Managed Expenditure, to finance made by hon. Members have been declined, and to the new Major Repairs Allowance. 213W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 214W

The following table gives totals for the amounts of shows the number of jobs that could be supported, in Major Repairs Allowance paid by year from 2002-03 to England, under a range of scenarios. The impact assessment 2009-10, the latest audited figures available. We do not does not include estimates of the distribution of these have equivalent figures for any change in Departmental jobs at a local level, as this will depend upon the Expenditure Limit to accommodate the allowance in eventual allocation of funding to providers. these years. Since the completion of this impact assessment, the Annual managed expenditure Homes and Communities Agency has received offers Major repairs allowance for funding from providers that have exceeded our original expectations, and we are confident that we are 2002-03 1,528,961,056 on track to deliver up to 150, 000 new affordable homes. 2003-04 1,455,753,376 2004-05 1,402,024,575 Housing: Parking 2005-06 1,353,498,281 2006-07 1,307,534,539 Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 1,249,478,557 Communities and Local Government what assessment 2008-09 1,240,045,822 he has made of the effects of implementation of 2009-10 1,245,696,591 proposals in the Localism Bill on planning restrictions Notes: for car parking spaces on new housing developments. 1. Data taken from the 4th Housing Revenue Account subsidy claim [64790] form, excluding those below the audit threshold of £125,000. 2. Number of dwellings in 2002-03: 2,699,147; number of dwellings in 2009-10: 1,699,578. Robert Neill: Planning policy on car parking spaces is 3. Major Repairs Allowance is paid as part of Housing Revenue set out in Planning Policy Guidance 13: Transport Account, which is an Annual Managed Expenditure programme. (PPG13). This was updated on 3 January 2011 to remove the requirement for local planning authorities to impose Housing: Dorset maximum parking standards for new residential developments. The Government will consult in July Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 on the National Planning Policy Framework, which Communities and Local Government whether his will include updated policies on transport. When the Department has any plans for future housing Framework is adopted it will replace current Planning development in south east Dorset. [64829] Policy Statements and Planning Policy Guidance, including PPG13. Grant Shapps [holding answer 11 July 2011]: This The Localism Bill introduces new powers for Government have put in place a raft of measures to get neighbourhood planning. Neighbourhood plans can house-building moving again. In addition to putting in contain a wide range of policies, including potentially place fiscal incentives for local authorities to develop on parking. All neighbourhood plans will need to be in housing, in the form of the New Homes Bonus and the general conformity with the strategic policies set out in reformed Community Infrastructure Levy, the Government the Local Plan and will also need to be appropriate are also accelerating the release of public sector land, having regard to national policy. investing £4.5 billion to help deliver over 150,000 new affordable homes and, together with house-builders, Leasehold: Fees and Charges providing around £400 million for the new First Buy scheme, which will help nearly 10,500 first time buyers Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for to buy a new build property over the next two years. Communities and Local Government (1) what plans he While introducing incentives we are also abolishing has to require all charges on leaseholders to be top-down Regional Strategies through the Localism transparent; [65172] Bill. Together, this package of measures will enable people in all areas of the country, including south east (2) what plans he has to review the law relating to Dorset, to support and shape future housing development. leasehold tenure. [65173] Housing: Employment Andrew Stunell: The Government recognise that where problems arise over leaseholders’ homes—especially about Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for the actions of managing agents—these can cause real Communities and Local Government what assessment inconvenience and, in some cases, lead to significant his Department has made of the possible effects of his distress. The law therefore provides leaseholders with a proposed reforms to social housing on future levels of wide range of rights in order to avoid these disputes or, employment in the social housing sector in (a) where they arise, to enable them to be resolved. These Liverpool, Walton constituency, (b) Merseyside and include the right to ask for service charge information (c) England and Wales. [65519] and to see supporting documentation. The Government also recognise the need to strike the Grant Shapps: The Government’s investment and right balance of rights and responsibilities between reform will deliver more new affordable housing and landlords and leaseholders, and expect landlords and therefore support jobs in construction and related industries. managing agents to obey the law and act in a socially- We are investing £4.5 billion to deliver up to 150, 000 responsible manner. As with all regulation, state intervention new affordable homes. The Affordable Rent impact should be proportionate. assessment, published June 2011: Some leaseholders may find it stressful and burdensome http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/ to take a case against their landlord to a court, or even rentimpactassessment to a less formal leasehold valuation tribunal. It may be 215W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 216W that the current processes could work more effectively Local Government: Accountability or leaseholders could receive more help in exercising their rights. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for While the Government currently have no plans for a Communities and Local Government what plans he wide ranging review of leasehold law, they will keep a has for user involvement in the design of services close watching brief and will not rule out making other following the repeal of the duty to involve. [64250] changes. Local Government Finance: Reviews Robert Neill: The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), has announced Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for his intention to repeal the duty to involve. Repeal Communities and Local Government if he will seek to requires primary legislation; therefore until it is repealed have regard to the principles of fairness, equity and via legislation, it remains a duty. need in his forthcoming proposals for the review of local government finance. [64854] The plan to repeal the duty is in line with the Government’s commitment to freeing up local authorities Robert Neill: The resource review will publish shortly to innovate and work in new ways to serve their local its proposals on the retention of business rates by local communities. Central Government should not be authorities. The Government have been clear that any prescribing how local government engages with local proposals will ensure that all councils will have adequate people. resources to meet the needs of their local community. We want to encourage authorities and civil society to Councils which are more deprived will continue to collaborate more, including greater involvement for receive central Government support. voluntary groups in the design and running of public services. In this context, we recently consulted on light Local Government Finance: York touch statutory guidance on the Best Value duty setting out some reasonable expectations of the way authorities Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for should work with voluntary and community groups Communities and Local Government how much and small businesses when facing difficult funding decisions. general revenue funding has been allocated to the City The consultation closed on 14 June and we expect to of York council for services other than education in provide a Government response and publish final guidance each year since 2007-08 in (a) cash and (b) real terms. this summer. [65607] An equality impact assessment initial screening http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ Robert Neill: The central Government revenue funding localgovernment/bestvalueequalities allocated to City of York council for services other than education in each year since 2007-08 in cash and real was carried out on a package of decentralisation measures terms based on 2009-10 prices is tabled as follows: including the repeal of the duty to involve. The screening showed that new best value guidance will balance out £000 any possible equality impacts arising from the loss of 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 the duty since it supplements the existing duty to consult under best value and underlines support for voluntary Cash 240,489 251,744 261,089 and community sector organisations. It will strengthen Real terms 251,167 255,843 261,089 the role of voluntary and community sector groups in Source: terms of engagement, funding and potentially running Department for Communities and Local Government Revenue Outturn public services. It will also give greater freedom to (RO) returns. councils to respond to local rather than central priorities The definition of central Government revenue funding and expand the scope of councils to collaborate with used here is the sum of formula grant (revenue support small businesses and voluntary and community sector grant, redistributed non-domestic rates), area-based grant organisations. and specific grants inside aggregate external finance i.e. revenue grants paid for council’s core services. Once the duty to involve is repealed, the separate duty to consult local representatives (which supports Figures exclude grants outside aggregate external the duty of best value) will remain in place. This will be finance (i.e. where funding is not for authorities’ core backed up by the additional support for voluntary and services, but is passed to a third party, for example, rent community groups in the best value guidance. allowances and rebates), funding for the local authorities’ housing management responsibilities and those grant In addition, the new duties contained in the Localism programmes (such as European funding) where authorities Bill (i.e. the Community Rights to Challenge and Buy) are simply one of the recipients of funding paid towards aim to have a greater impact on links between councils an area. and communities. It also excludes Dedicated Schools Grant a ring-fenced specific grant for education service. Formula grant is an Local Government: Pay unhypothecated block grant and area-based grant and certain specific grants are unring-fenced. Therefore it is Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for possible for local authorities to spend these grants on Communities and Local Government which local any services including education. authorities (a) have and (b) have not implemented a The 2009-10 real terms figures are calculated using pay rise for those earning less than £21,000 per annum the HM Treasury’s latest available GDP deflators. in 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [64663] 217W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 218W

Robert Neill: The information requested is not held Robert Neill: The Resource Review will publish centrally. While the Government’s overall policy on shortly its proposals on the retention of business rates public sector pay sets the context in which decisions by local authorities. The Government have been clear about pay are taken locally by councils, Government that any proposals will ensure that all councils will have have no role in determining annual pay awards in local adequate resources to meet the needs of their local authorities. These are for the employers and unions to community. negotiate whether locally, or within the framework of As the Deputy Prime Minister recently said to the the relevant National Joint Committee. Local Government Association’s annual conference, no Mayors local authority will receive less funding when the new arrangements are introduced than they would have Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for done under the previous funding system. Communities and Local Government what recent discussions he has had with leaders of local authorities Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for in cities where he proposes to introduce shadow mayors Communities and Local Government which (a) fire prior to mayoral elections. [65712] and (b) local authorities are net (i) contributors to and (ii) recipients from the collection and allocation of Robert Neill: We do not propose to introduce shadow business rates. [64695] mayors. The committee in the other place considering the Localism Bill agreed on 23 June amendments, supported Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I by the Government, which remove all provision for gave my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Louise shadow mayors from the Bill. Mensch) on 6 December 2010, Official Report, column 57W. National Planning Policy Framework Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what discussions Communities and Local Government when he plans to his Department has had with business organisations on publish the National Planning Policy Framework. his proposal for local authorities to retain business [65574] rates. [64799]

Robert Neill: The National Planning Policy Framework Robert Neill: An important part of the Local will be published this month. Government Resource Review has been extensive engagement with key partners to help inform our work. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) whether the The Department has had regular discussions with National Planning Policy Framework’s proposed business organisations on the issues raised by the review’s presumption in favour of sustainable development will consideration of local retention of business rates. In permit development on the greenbelt in respect of (a) addition to bilateral discussions, the Department has community buildings including schools, (b) held a number of working group meetings of business commercial development, (c) affordable housing and representative bodies. (d) any other type of development; [65798] We will be publishing our proposals for consultation (2) what arrangements are in place to protect shortly. greenbelt land from development as part of the National Planning Policy Framework’s presumption in Playing Fields: Wandsworth favour of sustainable development. [65799] Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: The coalition agreement explicitly states Communities and Local Government if he will issue a that we will maintain green belt protection. The green temporary designation for Barn Elms playing fields belt has a valuable role in stopping urban sprawl and under the Green Areas Designation initiative. [64662] providing a green lung around towns and cities. Indeed, our proposed abolition of the unpopular Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I regional strategies through the Localism Bill will stop gave on 4 July 2011, Official Report, columns 1000-1001W, the top-down pressure to remove the green belt in to the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim 30 areas across England. Fitzpatrick). The presumption in favour of sustainable development requires councils to plan positively for the needs of each Road Traffic: Planning area, while safeguarding those things that require protection. Where plans are not in place or up-to-date, it makes Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for clear that development should be allowed unless this Communities and Local Government what guidance he would compromise the key principles for sustainability has given to Planning Inspectors about the judgments in the National Planning Policy Framework, including they should make in relation to the effects on levels of protection of the green belt. (a) traffic congestion and (b) pollution in relation to Non-domestic Rates new developments. [65583]

Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: When considering called-in or recovered Communities and Local Government if he will ensure planning applications or appeals the standard guidance that Liverpool city council does not receive a reduction used by inspectors when making judgments concerning in business rate grant as a result of his proposed the effects of traffic congestion and pollution in relation changes to local government finance. [65760] to new developments is as follows: 219W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 220W

Traffic congestion—PPG13: Transport (ODPM, March 2001); General needs housing Manual for Streets (DCLG/DfT, March 2007); Manual for Streets 2 Percentage (CIHT and endorsed by DfT/DCLG, September 2010); and 2010 2009 2008 2007 2006 Good Practice Guidelines: Delivering Travel Plans through the Planning Process (CLG/DfT, April 2009). South West 9.1 2.8 5.8 1.8 (5.6) Pollution—PPS23: Planning and Pollution Control (ODPM, East Midlands 7.1 13.9 1.2 10.9 (9.4) November 2004); and PPG24: Planning and Noise (DoE, September East of 9.9 4.4 4.3 6.3 (10.5) 1994). England We will consider how to take forward these issues in West Midlands 7.9 15.1 7.0 (0.3) (10.9) Yorkshire and 0.4 8.3 7.5 8.1 (14.1) the forthcoming National Planning Policy Framework. the Humber Social Rented Housing North East 7.9 2.4 (6.3) 14.0 (26.2) North West 9.3 10.8 5.0 5.0 (23.7) England 5.5 8.7 6.4 4.4 (9.9) Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much social Supported housing1 housing for rent was built in (a) Yo rk , (b) North Percentage Yorkshire and (c) England in each year since 1997; 2010 2009 2008 2007 20061 and how much social housing in each area he expects to be built in each future year for which projections have London 4.1 9.2 3.0 11.7 n/a been made. [65603] South East 11.4 8.8 3.4 5.5 n/a South West 7.6 6.8 6.1 8.6 n/a Andrew Stunell: Figures on additional affordable housing East Midlands 4.1 9.7 9.3 16.0 n/a at national and local level for 1991-92 to 2009-10 are East of England 8.5 7.8 2.1 7.4 n/a published by on the Department’s website at: West Midlands 18.6 4.0 5.0 9.3 n/a http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Yorkshire and 8.8 15.6 7.1 5.8 n/a housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/ the Humber affordablehousingsupply/livetables/ North East 21.1 9.4 (8.2) 5.1 n/a Live Table 1006 shows the number of social rented North West 10.5 2.8 8.2 7.3 n/a homes provided in each area, including acquired and England 9.8 7.7 4.4 7.6 n/a 1 Figures not available before 2005-06. newly built homes. Note: We are investing nearly £4.5 billion to help deliver There is no equivalent information collected for local authority social housing. 150,000 new affordable homes between 2011-12 and Taxation 2014-15. The majority of the homes delivered will be made available as affordable rent with some for affordable Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for home ownership. The Department does not forecast Communities and Local Government what the local levels of future house building. timetable is for the introduction of tax increment financing. [64782] Social Rented Housing: Pensioners Robert Neill: The Local Government Resource Review Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for is developing proposals to allow councils to retain their Communities and Local Government what recent locally-raised business rates. We will also introduce tax estimate he has made of the number of pensioners increment financing powers, allowing councils to fund living in the social housing sector in Sunderland key infrastructure projects by borrowing against future Central constituency. [65225] increases in business rates. We will be consulting on proposals shortly.Tax increment Andrew Stunell: The Department does not hold this financing and the retention of business rates will be information. introduced through the forthcoming Local Government Finance Bill. Social Rented Housing: Rents

Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for WALES Communities and Local Government what the average Departmental Regulation change in service charges for tenants in social housing was (a) overall and (b) in each region in each of the Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales last five years. [64875] (1) how many regulations her Department has introduced (a) in the six months prior to 1 September Andrew Stunell: The social housing regulator, the 2010 and (b) in the six months after 1 September 2010 Tenant Services Authority, collects this information for which it has determined do not impose costs on private registered providers of social housing as part of businesses; [65311] its annual regulatory and statistical return, based on its (2) how many regulations that impose costs on regional analysis. This is set out as follows: businesses her Department has (a) introduced and (b) General needs housing removed since 1 September 2010; what the net effect on Percentage the costs on businesses of such introductions and 2010 2009 2008 2007 2006 removals was; and what regulations have been excluded from the one-in one-out system because they address London 4.5 8.9 8.9 6.8 1.1 (i) emergencies and (ii) systemic financial risks since South East (0.6) 7.4 6.4 2.7 (11.7) 1 September 2010; [65328] 221W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 222W

(3) how many regulations that impose costs on Dairy Products: Meat businesses her Department (a) introduced and (b) removed in the six months prior to 1 September 2010; Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for and what the net effect was on the costs on businesses Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proposals of such introductions and removals. [65344] she has to reduce waste in (a) dairy supply chains and (b) red meat supply chains. [64815] Mr David Jones: The Government’s policy is to consider alternative to regulation. A list of regulatory measures Mr Paice: The Government are working closely with introduced in the first half of 2011 can be found in the the livestock industry on its product roadmaps. They Statement of New Regulation in the Libraries of the are good examples of what can be achieved by bringing House. producers, processers and retailers together to commit Departmental Responsibilities themselves to more sustainable operation. The recently published Dairy Roadmap sets targets for waste recycling Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales and recovery for both farmers and processers, and on on how many occasions a request for a meeting by an amounts of recyclate used in packaging for retailers. hon. Member of each political party has been refused Part two of The English Beef and Sheep Production by (a) a Minister in her Department directly and (b) Roadmap also looks at waste and efficiency issues through her Department on behalf of a Minister since May supply chains, extending the work begun on greenhouse 2010. [64420] gases in part one. While April’s publication of the English Pig Meat Roadmap highlights the importance Mr David Jones: We are not aware of any requests of animal health and carcase utilisation issues in avoiding from an hon. Member having been refused. The Secretary waste in that sector. The Roadmaps can be found at: of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member http://www.dairyco.net/library/research-development/ for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), and I are environment/dairy-roadmap.aspx always happy to discuss matters of importance to Wales http://www.eblex.org.uk/publications/corporate.aspx with hon. Members of all political parties. http://www.bpex.org.uk/Article.aspx?ID=301329 Social Services: Finance Additionally the Waste Resource Action programme (WRAP) carries out a range of activities to encourage Paul Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales the prevention of waste. These include: what discussions she has had with the Secretary of The provision of online tools and case studies; State for Health on the Dilnot Commission Report and The facilitation of agreements to reduce waste from their its implications for Wales. [64860] products; for example, the Courtauld Commitment which concerns Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my the reduction of packaging waste in the grocery sector. right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), and I have discussed the work of the Eggs: Imports Dilnot Commission with ministerial colleagues in the Department of Health. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government will consider the Commission’s Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment recommendations on how to achieve an affordable and her Department has made of the potential effect on the sustainable funding system for care and support for all egg industry of imports of (a) egg products adults in England. The Department of Health will be manufactured from shell eggs produced in systems in producing a White Paper on wider social care issues EU member states which do not comply with EU next spring, and a progress report on the funding reform. directives and (b) egg products manufactured from We will work constructively with the Welsh Government eggs produced in conventional cage production systems on any aspects of the proposals which have implications outside the EU. [63041] for delivery of care and support in Wales. Mr Paice: The Government are totally committed to the 2012 deadline to have phased out the keeping of laying hens in conventional cages in the UK. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS From 1 January 2012 it will be illegal to market eggs Agriculture: Subsidies in this country from hens still in conventional cages. We are not able unilaterally to prevent egg products Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for produced from eggs in conventional cages being imported Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans her from third countries. World Trade Organisation rules Department has for the provision of direct payments to do not allow members to ban imports on the grounds of farms under the common agricultural policy from the welfare standards applied in third countries. 2013. [63906] We have, however, been at the forefront of efforts to Mr Paice [holding answer 5 July 2011]: The Government convince the Commission that simply relying on infraction want to see a greater focus on measures to improve proceedings against non-compliant member states will competitiveness across the EU, so as to progressively not be enough to deal with the negative impact that reduce the reliance of EU farming on subsidy. While non-compliance would cause and that additional measures direct payments will continue during the next financial would need to be put in place to prevent market disturbance perspective, there should be a clear downward trajectory and to protect compliant producers. We will continue to and a programme of managed transition planning for keep up the pressure on the Commission to act and act their abolition. quickly. 223W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 224W

Genetically Modified Organisms: Potatoes removed since 1 September 2010; what the net effect on the costs on businesses of such introductions and Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for removals was; and what regulations have been excluded Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether from the one-in one-out system because they address (i) genetically modified potatoes have been planted under emergencies and (ii) systemic financial risks since application reference 10/R29/01 in 2011. [63983] 1 September 2010. [65330] Mr Paice: The Sainsbury Laboratory planted potatoes David Mundell: Since 1 September 2010 the Scotland under this consent in 2011 at the same site as the 2010 Office has not introduced or removed any regulations planting. that impose costs on businesses. Hill Farming Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many regulations that impose costs on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion businesses his Department (a) introduced and (b) of former recipients of hill farm allowance are (a) removed in the six months prior to 1 September 2010; participating in uplands entry level stewardship and and what the net effect on the costs on businesses of (b) in receipt of the uplands transitional payment. such introductions and removals was. [65347] [62125] David Mundell: In the six months prior to 1 September Mr Paice: An initial analysis of uptake suggests that 2010 the Scotland Office did not introduce or remove by mid-January 2011, (a) 36% of HFA 2010 recipients any regulations that imposed costs on businesses. had a live uplands entry level stewardship (Uplands Directors: Females ELS) agreement; and (b) 30% of HFA 2010 recipients had valid claims for the 2011 uplands transitional payment Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for (UTP). Scotland what discussions he has had with (a) the A further analysis will be undertaken once a full Minister for Women and Equalities and (b) Scottish year’s uplands ELS uptake data are available in July, Ministers about measures that could be taken to these will give a fuller picture of the percentage of encourage increased employment of women at former HFA claimants participating in either UTP or boardroom level in Scottish companies. [65489] uplands ELS. It is expected that this will show a further increase in the proportion of HFA 2010 recipients with Michael Moore: I have regular discussions with the a live uplands ELS agreement: between mid-January Secretary of State for the Home Department and Minister and mid-June, the number of live uplands ELS agreements for Women and Equalities, the right hon. Member for increased by 29%. Maidenhead (Mrs May), on a range of issues relating to Scotland. The Scottish Government have their own Gender Equality Scheme. SCOTLAND Railways Departmental Regulation Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland pursuant to the answer of 30 June 2011, Scotland how many regulations his Department has Official Report, column 891W, on high speed rail, what introduced (a) in the six months prior to 1 September the outcome was of his discussions with Scottish 2010 and (b) in the six months after 1 September 2010 Ministers on the extension of high speed rail services to which it has determined do not impose costs on Scotland; and if he will make a statement. [65174] businesses. [65313] Michael Moore: Both I and the Under-Secretary of David Mundell: In the six months prior to 1 September State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for 2010 the Scotland Office introduced two regulations Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), that did not impose costs on business. These were: have encouraged Scottish Ministers to share their views The Representation of the People (Scotland) (Amendment) and those of relevant Scottish Stakeholders in the Regulations 2010; Department for Transport’s high speed rail public The Management of Offenders etc. (Scotland) Act 2005 (Disclosure consultation process which is currently ongoing. of Information) Order. In the six months after 1 September 2010 the Scotland Social Security Benefits Office introduced five regulations that did not impose costs on business. These were: Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for The Scottish Parliament (Constituencies and Regions) Order 2010; Scotland what discussions he has had with (a) the The Scottish Parliament (Elections etc) Order 2010; Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and (b) the The Scottish Parliament (Disqualification) Order 2010; Convention of Scottish Local Authorities regarding The Protection of Vulnerable Groups (Scotland) Act 2007 the impact in Scotland of the proposed benefits cap. (Consequential Provisions) Order 2010; [65490] The Marine (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2010. Michael Moore: I have regular conversations with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the right hon. Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Scotland how many regulations that impose costs on Smith), where we have discussed many issues including businesses his Department has (a) introduced and (b) the impact on Scotland of the proposed benefits cap. 225W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 226W

My most recent meeting with the Convention of Members: Postage Stamps Scottish Local Authorities (CoSLA) was in June of this year and I will be meeting with CoSLA again in October Mr Brine: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, where we will have the opportunity to discuss the impact Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of of the benefits cap in Scotland. Commons Commission, what the cost to the public purse was of collection of unpaid postage for mail sent to hon. Members in each of the last five years. [64704] NORTHERN IRELAND John Thurso: The cost to the public purse for the Air Ambulance Services: Fuels collection of unpaid postage for items sent to Members and departments in the House of Commons is as follows: Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what his policy is on an exemption £ from value added tax for fuel for the Air Ambulance for Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement. 2009 10,184.53 [65151] 2010 10,614.01 2011 (January to end June) 6,493.07 Mr Paterson: Tax policy including value added tax is the responsibility of the Chancellor of the No data are held on costs before 2009. No information Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton is held on the split of unpaid postage costs between (Mr Osborne). items sent to Members and those sent to departments of the House although the vast majority is on Members’ items. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Schools: Visits Departmental Carbon Emissions Anne Marie Morris: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the hon. Member for the House of Commons Commission, how many Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing school parties from (a) Devon and (b) Newton Abbot the House of Commons Commission, whether the constituency have visited the Palace of Westminster House of Commons Commission has any plans to through the Parliamentary Education Service in each generate low-carbon energy on the Commons part of year since 2009. [62962] the parliamentary estate. [65409] John Thurso: The number of schools from (a) Devon John Thurso: The Parliamentary Estates Directorate and (b) the Newton Abbot constituency that have (PED) continues to investigate the potential for both visited the Palace of Westminster through Parliament’s low and zero carbon generation on the parliamentary Education Service in each year since 2009 is as follows: estate to help deliver the House’s target for reducing carbon emissions from energy use. Devon Newton Abbot

There are two areas where there are plans to introduce 20091 18 15 low carbon generation. The PED is developing options 2010 10 2 for the re-commissioning of the existing combined heat and power plant on the northern estate, and it is also 2011 (to date) 10 2 2011 (future 81 reviewing options and benefits of installing tri-generation bookings) (combined heating, cooling and power) as part of the 1 The Newton Abbot constituency was newly created in 2010. The long-term vision for mechanical and electrical services figure for 2009 relates to the former Teignbridge constituency. within the palace. The total number of students visiting the Palace of Under the medium-term Mechanical and Electrical Westminster on these visits, including future bookings Project measures are already being implemented to for 2011, is 1,634; of these, 381 are from the Newton reduce the carbon footprint from energy use, for instance Abbot constituency. by improving the efficiency of chilled water systems. The project team is also looking at options for zero carbon energy generation such as providing infrastructure ATTORNEY-GENERAL for solar thermal and/or photovoltaic generators located Departmental Dismissal on the roof. The potential for a variety of other renewable energy sources, including wind and tidal energy, has Stephen Barclay: To ask the Attorney-General how been considered as part of the project There are significant many officials in the Law Officers’ Departments were planning constraints on a world heritage site, but the dismissed for under-performance as a result of the project team will continue to explore the feasibility of procedures arising from those Departments’ staff these technologies, and the infrastructure provided as appraisal systems in each of the last three years. part of this project will be capable of adaptation to [64694] cater for other systems which may be found suitable for heritage estates and become more economically attractive The Solicitor-General: One Crown Prosecution in future years. Service (CPS) employee was dismissed in 2010 and one The feasibility of realising further carbon savings by employee was dismissed in 2011 as a result of poor utilising the Whitehall/Pimlico district heating scheme performance. These employees were dismissed under which provides carbon-neutral heat energy is also being the Department’s managing poor performance policy, examined. which contains a formal procedure informed by but 227W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 228W distinct from the Department’s staff appraisal system. Mr Vaizey: The Government have made available A further 37 dismissals since April 2009 were for £530 million to stimulate commercial investment in unsatisfactory attendance and misconduct. The CPS broadband infrastructure and to help deliver the best does not hold data on the specific reasons for the superfast broadband network in Europe by 2015. A full dismissals of staff prior to April 2009. list of allocations by location will be published later this The Treasury Solicitor’s Department dismissed four month. The allocations will provide clarity for local people for poor performance in 2008-09, three people in procuring authorities on the cost of delivering superfast 2009-10, and one person in 2010-11. broadband to 90% of all premises and a fibre connection to virtually every community and a minimum of 2 Mbps There have been no dismissals for underperformance to every premise and, will also indicate the gap in at the Serious Fraud Office, HM Crown Prosecution funding required to meet these objectives. Service Inspectorate and the Attorney-General’s Office. Broadband: Rural Areas

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Abortion: Advertising Olympics, Media and Sport what plans he has for the delivery of broadband to rural areas; and if he will Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, make a statement. [64441] Olympics, Media and Sport what representations he has received from (a) members of the public, (b) hon. Mr Vaizey: The Government published Britain’s Members and (c) Members of the House of Lords Superfast Broadband Future in December 2010, which against television advertisements for abortion services sets out the Government’s plans for delivering superfast since January 2011; and if he will make a statement. broadband in rural areas, a copy can be found on the [64644] Department for Culture, Media and Sport’s website at: http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/7829.aspx Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member Departmental Responsibilities for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has received 576 representations from members of the public on this Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for matter since 1 January 2011 and one representation Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport on how many from an hon. Member, on behalf of a constituent. No occasions a request for a meeting by an hon. Member representations from Members of the House of Lords of each political party has been refused by (a) a have been received. Minister in his Department directly and (b) his Active Places Scheme Department on behalf of a Minister since May 2010. [64434]

Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for John Penrose: This Department does not keep a Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions record of meetings declined by its Ministers or departmental he has had on the renaming of the Active Places officials. scheme; and if he will make a statement. [64215]

Hugh Robertson: The Secretary of State for Culture, Mobile Phones: Radio Frequencies Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has not Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for taken part in any discussions about the renaming of Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what Active Places. discussions he has had with Ofcom on the introduction of a (a) 98 per cent. and (b) 99 per cent. coverage Broadband: Alyn and Deeside obligation for the forthcoming auction of 4G spectrum licences; [65062] Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what discussions he has had with the devolved Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions administrations on introducing a (a) 98 per cent. and he has had with the Welsh Government on the (b) 99 per cent. coverage obligation in the forthcoming timescale for the introduction of superfast broadband auction of 4G spectrum licences; [65063] internet access in existing areas of poor access in Alyn (3) what discussions he has had with Ofcom on the and Deeside constituency. [65061] application of the 4G population coverage obligation Mr Vaizey: The Government are supporting the Welsh to each nation of the UK; and if he will make a Government to deliver superfast broadband to 90% of statement; [65064] all premises in Wales by 2015. (4) what consideration he has given to ensuring that the availability of 4G services in Wales is similar to the Broadband: Public Finance availability of such services in England; and what discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, this matter. [65065] Olympics, Media and Sport if he will estimate the cost to the public purse in each region of the provision of Mr Vaizey: Following the Direction to Ofcom in broadband to rural areas in each year of this December 2010, I have not discussed coverage obligations programme. [64440] with Ofcom or the devolved Administrations. The design 229W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 230W of the auction is a matter for Ofcom, including coverage length from Government and with the same independence obligations and in Ofcom’s recent consultation they and impartiality currently awarded to the PLR Registrar. sought evidence to support a higher coverage obligation We are working to resolve as quickly as possible the than the proposed 95% level. issues associated with the transfer of the Public Lending Right’s functions to another body. Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he plans Radio Frequencies to ensure that 4G wireless broadband minimum target speeds of at least two megabits per second will be Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for available to consumers who are not to be offered Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he superfast broadband under Ofcom’s current Spectrum has made of the potential income from the auction of criteria. [65066] 800 MHz spectrum with coverage targets of (a) 95% and (b) 100%. [64397] Mr Vaizey: Ofcom’s current coverage proposal for the combined auction includes providing a service of Mr Vaizey: No assessment has been made of the not less than 2 Mbps to an area where 95% of the potential income from the auction of 800 MHz spectrum population lives. It is the Government’s stated aim to with either coverage obligation. ensure that broadband for all would be available at Sports 2 megabits per second by 2015. We have not specified which technologies would deliver that, as it is likely that a mix of different technologies including fixed, wireless Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for broadband (both 3G and 4G) and satellite solutions Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many will be required, with the precise mix depending on individuals have registered for the Shift into Sport local factors such as topography and demographics. programme; and how many of those registered have attended and paid for a session. [64216] Olympic Games 2012 Hugh Robertson: The Department does not hold this Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for information. Shift into Sports is an initiative provided Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent by the Fitness Industry Association (HA). meetings he has had with the Mayor of London to Tourism discuss the economic legacy for east London of the London 2012 Olympic Games. [65657] Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Hugh Robertson: The Secretary of State for Culture, Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he is Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the taking to support the development of the tourism Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has regular economy in (a) Liverpool, Walton constituency, (b) meetings with the Mayor of London on matters connected Merseyside and (c) England. [64968] with London 2012 and its legacy. The Mayor is responsible for the legacy for East London which is why government John Penrose: The Government’s plans for promoting is legislating to enable him to set up a Mayoral Development the growth of the visitor economy are set out in detail in Corporation to drive the regeneration of the area and the paper, “Government Tourism Policy” published in its economic legacy post-games. March 2011, and available at: http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/7896.aspx Public Lending Right Over the next four years VisitBritain will be running the “You’re Invited” programme, which will capitalise Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for on the international interest in the recent royal wedding, Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he as well as next year’s diamond jubilee and Olympic and has made of the potential savings to the public purse Paralympic Games, and showcase Britain to the world. arising from implementation of his plans for the future The programme aims to attract 4 million extra visitors, management of the Public Lending Right. [64314] spending £2 billion in the UK economy, which will support businesses, jobs and growth. The programme is Mr Vaizey: The level of savings arising from backed by a £100 million marketing fund, funded by the implementation of changes to the management of the public and private sector. Public Lending Right (PLR) depends on decisions made VisitEngland is working closely with local areas and by the body that takes over the PLR functions. We are destinations, in line with Government’s localism agenda, working to resolve as quickly as possible the issues to grow the value of local tourism economies. This is associated with the transfer of functions. co-ordinated through the National Strategic Framework for Tourism, which includes an action Mr Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of State for programme developed in consultation with the tourism Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what his policy is sector. VisitEngland is currently working with destinations on the future administration of the Public Lending across the country, including Liverpool, on a campaign Right. [65210] to deliver economic growth from the domestic market, and to support employment and job creation. ‘The time Mr Jeremy Hunt: The Government recognise the to be in England’ initiative will maximise the impact of importance of the Public Lending Right (PLR) to the unique events of 2012, including the Queen’s diamond authors. We have made assurances that PLR payments jubilee and the Olympic and Paralympic Games, helping will still be administered by a body operating at arm’s to spread the benefits of the Games outside London 231W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 232W and maintain a legacy of domestic tourism growth. The Mrs Villiers: There is no single widely agreed definition campaign is the subject of a bid to the second round of of a hub airport. The Department has not sought to the Regional Growth Fund. provide a precise definition of a hub airport. However, Tourism policy seeks to help improve the sector’s as part of the process of developing a sustainable productivity and competitiveness, in particular, to address framework for UK aviation, the Department for Transport the burden of regulation affecting the industry. The published a scoping document in March 2011 which Government’s Red Tape Challenge focused on the provides the following broad definition: hospitality sector in May, inviting the industry and “A hub airport is used by airlines as the main base for connecting the public to identify regulations holding back the traffic where a significant proportion of passengers transfer between industry and stifling growth. Alongside this, the flights.” Government have set up an industry task force, led by From the perspective of an airline, a main base for senior industry figures, to identify rules, regulations and connecting traffic refers to an airport where the airline inspections impeding the sector, and which might be serves a high number of transfer passengers—that is cut, modified or abolished. passengers connecting directly between an inbound and an outbound flight—compared to other airports at which it operates. TRANSPORT Biggin Hill Airport A120: Accidents Joseph Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what assessment he has made of the Transport if he will publish a table setting out the potential role of Biggin Hill airport in the regional number of road traffic accidents recorded on the A120 aviation strategy for the south-east; [62932] at the junction with Little Bentley Road and Little Bromley Road in each of the last 10 years, indicating (2) if he will assess the effects of the operations of the number of (a) fatalities and (b) non-fatal injuries; Biggin Hill airport on the Government’s objectives for what safety assessment has been made of the road increasing the number of passengers using public junction; and what steps his Department is considering transport. [62933] to improve the safety of the junction. [65358] Mrs Villiers: The Government are committed to creating Mike Penning [holding answer 11 July 2011]: All a sustainable framework for UK aviation. In March accidents involving a personal injury are recorded. 2011, we published a scoping document seeking The following table shows validated figures for all stakeholders’ views and evidence on a range of strategic fatal and non-fatal injuries for the A120, at the aviation issues, including making better use of existing junctions with Little Bentley Road and Little Bromley airport capacity across the UK. We will assess the Road, in each of the last five years for which figures are potential benefits and impacts of proposals as we develop available. the new policy framework which we will publish for consultation next year. Fatal Non-fatal Total Bus Services: Parliament Square 20091 134 2008 1 0 1 Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 0 2 2 Transport if he will ask Transport for London when it 2006 0 2 2 intends to restore the bus stop outside 2 Parliament 2005 0 3 3 street, Westminster. [61895] 1 Validated data are only available up to 31 December 2009. The Highways Agency has a comprehensive process Mrs Villiers: Under devolution, Transport for London, for monitoring safety on the A120. This includes but is and ultimately the Mayor of London, are responsible not limited to, a rolling three year accident analysis for for deciding transport priorities in London including each route, weekly safety inspections, fatal accident the management of the bus network. reviews and various asset condition surveys. The Highways Agency has developed a number of Codsall Railway Station: Parking options, both long and short term to reduce the number of accidents at these junctions. The Agency is currently Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for reviewing its capital programme in response to the Transport what plans his Department has to improve spending review, to identify if a short term option can car parking facilities at Codsall railway station. [64745] be delivered this financial year. Airports Norman Baker: I understand that neither train operating company which serves the station has plans to improve Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for car parking facilities at Codsall railway station. Transport (1) pursuant to the answer of 23 June 2011, Official Report, column 399W, on airports, what Cycling: Helmets definition of connecting traffic his Department employs when seeking to define a hub airport; [65276] Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the number of (2) what definition his Department employs of the deaths which were prevented by cyclists wearing term main base in the context of a hub airport. [65277] helmets in each of the last three years. [63040] 233W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 234W

Mike Penning: We have not produced an estimate of EU Law the number of deaths prevented by cyclists wearing helmets in each of the last three years. However, research undertaken in 2009 by the Transport Research Laboratory Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for for the Department for Transport included a biomechanical Transport for what European directives in force on assessment of over 100 police forensic reports on cyclist 1 April 2010 his Department is responsible; and what fatalities and estimated that 10% to 16% of the fatalities European directives for which his Department is could have been prevented if the cyclist had worn an responsible have come into force since 1 April 2010. appropriate cycle helmet. The research report ‘The Potential [60700] for Cycle Helmets to Prevent Injury: A Review of the Evidence’ is available to download for free from: Mrs Villiers: The stock of EU legislation in force is www.trl.co.uk set out in the Eur-Lex database: Dartford-Thurrock Crossing http://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/index.htm It would involve disproportionate cost to review the Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for entire stock to establish which pieces of legislation were Transport for what reasons the Dartford-Thurrock currently the responsibility of the Department for Transport crossing protocol was not invoked and the tolls lifted or its predecessor Departments. on 1 July at 1pm. [64357] There are a number of directives, which have come into force since 1 April 2010, for which my Department Mike Penning: The resulting traffic conditions on has responsibility. The entry in force and transposition 1 July, following a small vehicle fire that closed two of dates often differ and can sometimes be years apart. A the four lanes of the Dartford Crossing Bridge for an list of directives and amending directives covering a hour, did not meet the specified criteria for severe range of cross-transport policies are as follows: congestion set out in the operational protocol being Directive 1997/27/EC of the European Parliament and of the trialled by the Highways Agency. The Road User Charge Council of 22 July 1997 relating to the masses and dimensions of was therefore not suspended. certain categories of motor vehicles and their trailers and amending The Highways Agency will continue to assess the Directive 70/156/EEC. traffic conditions that occur as a result of all significant Directive 2005/33/EC of the European Parliament and of the incidents on a case-by-case basis, against the criteria for Council of 6 July 2005 amending Directive 1999/32/EC. severe congestion, during the six-month trial of the Directive 2006/40/EC of the European Parliament and of the operational protocol, to evaluate its effectiveness in Council of 17 May 2006 relating to emissions from air conditioning dealing with such circumstances. systems in motor vehicles and amending Council Directive 70/156/ EEC. Driving Offences: Foreign Nationals 2006/87/EC Directive of the European Parliament and of the Council of 12 December 2006 laying down technical requirements Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for for inland waterway vessels and repealing Council Directive 82/714/ Transport whether he has undertaken an assessment of EEC. the effects on road safety of introducing a power to 2006/137/EC Directive of the European Parliament and of the issue on-the-spot fines to the drivers of foreign vehicles Council of 18 December 2006 amending Directive 2006/87/EC that break UK traffic laws. [65267] laying down technical requirements for inland waterway vessels. Directive 2007/59/EC of the European Parliament and of the Mike Penning: No assessment has been undertaken Council of 23 October 2007 on the certification of train drivers on the effects of road safety since the introduction of operating locomotives and trains on the railway system in the on-the-spot fines to the drivers of foreign vehicles that Community. break UK traffic laws. Council Directive 2008/59/EC of 12 June 2008 adapting Directive However, we believe that the financial penalty deposit 2006/87/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council requirement (on the spot fines) provides an effective laying down technical requirements for inland waterway vessels, enforcement mechanism to deal with non-UK resident by reason of the accession of the Republic of Bulgaria and Romania. offenders who do not comply with GB road traffic rules. It has helped to alleviate a public concern about Commission Directive 2008/67/EC of 30 June 2008 amending the variation in enforcement against UK and non-UK Council Directive 96/98/EC on marine equipment/ resident hauliers and we have seen a reduction in personal Directive 2008/68/EC of the European Parliament and of the injury collisions involving foreign HGVs, although it is Council of 24 September 2008 on the inland transport of dangerous too early to establish any direct and significant link with goods. the deposit scheme. Directive 2008/87/EC of 22 September 2008 amending Directive 2006/87/EC of the European Parliament and of the East Coast Railway Line: Industrial Disputes Council laying down technical requirements for inland waterway vessels. Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Directive 2008/96/EC of the European Parliament and of the Transport how many (a) full and (b) partial days of Council of 19 November 2008 on road infrastructure safety industrial action there have been on the East Coast management. Main Line since 2005. [65235] Directive 2008/126/EC of 19 December 2008 amending Directive 2006/87/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council Norman Baker: There have been no incidents of industrial laying down technical requirements for inland waterway vessels. action within the east coast franchise since 2005 that Directive 2009/26/EC of 6 April 2009 amending Council Directive have caused cessation of train services on the route. 96/98/EC on marine equipment. 235W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 236W

Directive 2009/46/EC of 24 April 2009 amending Directive Motor Vehicles: Insurance 2006/87/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council laying down technical requirements for inland waterway vessels. Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Directive 2009/112/EC of 25 August 2009 amending Council Transport what his policy is in respect of people who Directive 91/439/EEC on driving licences. have an illness that has prevented them from (a) Directive 2009/113/EC of 25 August 2009 amending Directive making a statutory off-road notice and (b) insuring 2006/126/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council on driving licences. their vehicle; and if he will make a statement. [65790] Directive 2009/123/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 21 October 2009 amending Directive 2005/35/EC on Mike Penning: The keeper of a vehicle is required to ship-source pollution and on the introduction of penalties for insure their vehicle or notify that the vehicle is off the infringements. road. If the keeper fails to do either of these options the Directive 2010/22/EU of 15 March 2010 amending, for the enforcement process is started automatically. Mitigating purposes of their adaptation to technical progress, Council Directives circumstances, including medical information, can be 80/720/EEC, 86/298/EEC, 86/415/EEC and 87/402/EEC and Directives put forward and will be taken into account to decide if 2000/25/EC and 2003/37/EC of the European Parliament and of the enforcement should proceed. the Council relating to the type-approval of agricultural or forestry tractors. It should be noted that enforcement action is only started after a reasonable period of time has elapsed. London Underground: Guide Dogs Also, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency will accept a statutory off-road notification made on the Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for keeper’s behalf by a spouse or next of kin. Transport (1) for what reasons he has not confirmed an amendment to the byelaws relating to guide dogs for Ports: Brazil the blind using moving escalators on London Underground; [60650] Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) by what date he expects to confirm a revised Transport if he will make representations to his byelaw to allow certain dogs to use moving escalators Brazilian counterpart in respect of the refusal of Brazil on London Underground. [60651] to allow British seafarers ashore whilst at Brazilian ports because the UK has not ratified the International Norman Baker: The London Regional Transport Byelaws Labour Organisation’s convention 108. [65395] 2000, which, among other things, prohibit animals from walking on moving escalators, are the responsibility of Mike Penning: The UK has ratified the International Transport for London (TfL). Labour Organisation 108, a convention concerning Peter Hendy, TfL’s Commissioner of Transport, has seafarers’ identity documents. The Department for recently written to the Secretary of State seeking to Transport is not aware of any recent incidences where confirm a number of revisions to the byelaws, which British seafarers have been denied access at Brazilian include making an exception to this requirement for ports. trained assistance and police dogs. Amendments now need to be made to the (national) railway byelaws to Public Transport: Olympic Games 2012 make the two sets of byelaws fully consistent. We expect these amendments and the confirmation of TfL’s byelaws Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for in the autumn. Transport what steps he has taken to ensure the public transport network will operate effectively during the Manchester Airport period of the London 2012 Olympics. [64940]

Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Villiers: The Olympic Delivery Authority has the Transport what discussions he has had with (a) statutory responsibility for transport planning for the ministerial colleagues and (b) others on the potential 2012 Games. It has recently published a second edition for increasing capacity at Manchester airport. [63189] of its Olympic Transport Plan which sets out the plans for ensuring effective operation of all the transport Mrs Villiers: Department for Transport Ministers networks. attend various meetings with the operators of regional airports where they discuss a range of issues including Thameslink: Rolling Stock Government policy on aviation. The Government fully recognise the vital contribution Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for airports make to regional economies. It is the Transport pursuant to the written statement of 16 June Government’s intention to develop an aviation policy 2011, Official Report, columns 85-86WS, on framework which supports economic growth and Thameslink rolling stock, if he will publish the results seeks to create the right conditions for regional airports of the value for money assessment applied to the bid to flourish. On 30 March 2011 the Department for submitted by Siemens with Cross London Trains. Transport published a scoping document that frames [64768] the debate on the future direction of aviation policy and asks a series of questions, including on regional airports. Mrs Villiers: The procurement process has not yet The responses to the scoping document will help to concluded. The details of the bids are confidential to inform the development of a draft framework, which Siemens, Bombardier and the Department. To release we intend to publish for full public consultation in this information could compromise their and the March 2012. Department’s commercial positions. 237W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 238W

Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what Transport (1) pursuant to the written statement of assessment he has made of the powers of the Child Support 16 June 2011, Official Report, columns 85-86WS, on Agency to investigate non-resident parents where a disparity Thameslink rolling stock, what assessment he has appears between lifestyle and declared earnings. [63408] made of the impact on (a) direct and (b) supply chain The variations scheme is relevant if a parent believes there employment levels of awarding the Thameslink are circumstances which should be taken into account in assessing what should be paid to support a child that have not contract to a bidder other than Bombardier; [64769] been captured within the standard maintenance calculation. Under (2) what estimate he has made of the number of jobs the 2003 child maintenance scheme a “variation” can be allowed that would be (a) directly and (b) indirectly created in in cases where the non-resident parent seems to have a lifestyle the UK in the event of the Thameslink contract being which is inconsistent with the amount of income that has been awarded to (i) Siemens or (ii) Bombardier; and if he used in the maintenance calculation, and which suggests that they might have other income which should have been taken into will make a statement. [64770] account. Mrs Villiers: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Generally a decision on whether to agree to a variation will be given to the right hon. Member for Southampton, made on the basis of the information brought forward by the parent with care. However in certain cases—for example where Itchen (Mr Denham), on 11 July 2011, Official Report, there is a likelihood of serious fraud being committed—the columns 205-06W. Commission has the power to undertake further investigations. The Commission can appoint inspectors to obtain information required. Inspectors have the power to enter premises (except those only used as a home) to make enquiries and to inspect WORK AND PENSIONS documents. In January the Department for Work and Pensions published Child Care Tax Credit its Green Paper, “Strengthening families, promoting parental responsibility: the future of child maintenance”. The purpose of the Green Paper was to seek views on the Government’s Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and strategy for reforming the child maintenance system by empowering Pensions how many families receive support for parents to take responsibility for their children and families. The childcare costs from both the childcare element of consultation is now closed and the Government is considering the working tax credit and housing benefit or housing responses. benefit and council tax benefit. [63809] Variations will continue to be available to parents in the proposed new child maintenance scheme and will be based upon Steve Webb: The Department estimates that more robust HMRC information. They will continue to capture approximately 100,000 families receive support for child circumstances which are not accounted for in the maintenance care costs from both the child care element of working calculation. tax credit and one or both of the disregards for child We are currently in the process of working on the details of the care costs available through housing benefit and council new variations scheme in order to fulfil the Commission’s tax benefit. commitments of simplifying and improving the child maintenance assessment process. Along with the new variations system there Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 100,000. will be a new duty on the Commission to support parent with care This estimate has been made using the Department’s applications by using readily available information sources such policy simulation model. This is a static microsimulation as HMRC. The detail of the new variations scheme will be model based on data from the 2008-09 Family Resources included in draft regulations, which will be subject to consultation Survey (FRS), uprated to the relevant year’s prices, in due course. benefit rates and earnings levels. I hope you find this answer helpful. Additional data from the Childcare and Early Years Survey of Parents has been used in the modelling to provide a better indication of the number of families Departmental Carbon Emissions receiving child care support. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Child Support Agency for Work and Pensions if his Department will explore the feasibility of low-carbon energy generation on its Mr Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and estate. [65375] Pensions what assessment he has made of the powers of the Child Support Agency to investigate non- resident parents where a disparity appears between Chris Grayling: The Department has already examined the feasibility of low-carbon generation on its estate, in lifestyle and declared earnings. [63408] conjunction with its PFI Estates Partner, and will continue Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement to do so, in line with commitments outlined within its Commission is responsible for the child maintenance Carbon Management Plan. system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner A Salix-funded combined heat and power (CHP) to write to the hon. Member with the information plant was installed at the Department’s Quarry House requested and I have seen the response. headquarters building in Leeds at the end of 2010. It Letter from Noel Shanahan: is fuelled by natural gas and is classified as ’low- carbon’ technology.’ Initial indications are that In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive performance is exceeding the estimated saving of £90,000 reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child and 428tCO2 a year. The lessons learned from the Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance project are now being used to explore opportunities and Enforcement Commission. across the estate. 239W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 240W

Departmental Dismissal Table 1: Median equivalised disposable household income, for the North East region of England, three year average 2007-08 to 2009-10, before and after housing costs Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Median equivalised weekly disposable household income (£) Work and Pensions how many officials in his BHC AHC Department were dismissed for under-performance as North 367 327 a result of procedures arising from his Department’s East staff appraisal system in each of the last three years. Notes: [64678] 1. These statistics are based on households below average income (HBAI) data sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation factors for household Chris Grayling: The Department has dismissed size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for standard of living. approximately 1,000 employees in each of the last three 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This includes years for reasons including under-performance, gross earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from occupational and private pensions, investment income and other sources. Income misconduct, and unacceptable levels of sickness absence. tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/domestic rates and The number of officials specifically dismissed for some other payments are deducted from incomes. 3. Figures have been presented on a before housing cost and an after housing under-performance in each of the last three years is cost basis. For before housing costs, housing costs are not deducted from recorded in the following table. income, while for after housing costs they are. 4. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be Reporting period Officials dismissed affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 5. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. For countries and 2008-09 15 regions within the UK, three survey years have been combined because single 2009-10 27 year estimates are not considered to be sufficiently reliable. 2010-11 38 6. Weekly incomes are presented in 2009-10 prices and have been rounded to the nearest pound. Source: The Department is committed to identifying and Households Below Average Income (HBAI) 2007-08 to 2009-10 tackling under-performance and has robust procedures in place. Where poor performance is identified the Employment and Support Allowance Department will take the necessary measures. Initially Dame Anne Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for this includes informal discussions designed to help, Work and Pensions whether a person who no longer support and encourage the individual to perform to a qualifies for contributory employment and support satisfactory standard. Where this fails then formal warnings allowance (ESA) because they have been in the are given. Ultimately, if their performance fails to improve, work-related activity group for over 12 months who is then a sanction is applied and the individual may be reassessed and moved into the support group more dismissed or demoted. than two years after they began their initial claim will have contributory ESA reinstated. [63219] Departmental Responsibilities Chris Grayling: Claimants who no longer qualify for contributory employment and support allowance (ESA) because they have been in the work-related activity Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work group for over 12 months, who are then reassessed and and Pensions on how many occasions a request for a moved into the support group, more than two years meeting by an hon. Member of each political party has after they began their initial claim, will have their been refused by (a) a Minister in his Department contributory ESA reinstated. directly and (b) his Department on behalf of a Minister since May 2010. [64421] Employment Schemes: Disability Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Grayling: In the main, Ministers from this Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Department try not to refuse meetings with Members the input and effectiveness of user groups in aiding of Parliament. However, detailed information is not people with disabilities to obtain work through the available other than at disproportionate costs. Work programme. [65292] Chris Grayling: DWP expects Work programme providers Disposable Income: Sunderland to work closely with those groups that can help them support as many people as possible into sustained employment, and the payment structure is designed to Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work incentivise this. The programme launched nationally in and Pensions what the median disposal household June and has long-term goals and measures of success, income was for Sunderland (a) before and (b) after so it is not yet possible to assess the extent or effectiveness housing costs in the latest period for which figures are of different organisations’ involvement. A full independent available. [65069] evaluation of the programme is currently being commissioned. Steve Webb: We use households below average income data to provide estimates of median incomes. Housing Benefit However, the sample size of this survey is not Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for sufficient to provide estimates for small areas such as Work and Pensions how many housing benefit that requested. claimants currently in receipt of such benefit claimed The following table shows the median equivalised more than his proposed cap for housing benefit claims disposable household income for the North East region for (a) one, (b) two, (c) five and (d) five or more of England, before and after housing costs. years. [65517] 241W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 242W

Steve Webb: The information is not available. Members: Correspondence Information relating to the duration of claims can not be reliably derived from housing benefit administrative Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for data. Work and Pensions when he plans to answer the letter Industrial Diseases sent to him by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton on 31 May 2011 with regard to Mrs Rahman. [65672] Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will assess the potential implications for persons diagnosed with (a) stress-related illnesses Chris Grayling: Despite an extensive search, I am and (b) musculoskeletal disorders of the afraid the Department has no trace of the letter. recommendations relating to low-hazard workplaces in Common Sense, Common Safety when considering Personal Income: Sunderland implementation of the recommendations. [64201] Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: The Health and Safety Executive has and Pensions what the average household income is of implemented the recommendations in “Common Sense a family in (a) social rented sector and (b) private Common Safety” by developing some interactive tools rented sector accommodation in Sunderland Central for employers in low-risk business environments such as constituency in the latest period for which figures are offices and shops, as well as new straight forward guidance, available. [65265] “Health and Safety Made Simple”. These are intended to help employers to manage health and safety in their workplaces in a sensible and proportionate way,—including Steve Webb: We use households below average income consideration of those diagnosed with stress or data to provide estimates of median incomes. However, musculoskeletal disorders if applicable. the sample size of this survey is not sufficient to provide estimates for small areas such as that requested. Industrial Health and Safety The following table shows the median equivalised disposable household income by tenure for the North Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Work East region of England, before and after housing costs. and Pensions what plans his Department has to reduce Table 1: Median equivalised disposable household income, for families, by tenure the number of health and safety regulations which for the North East region of England, three year average 2007/08 to 2009/10, impose unnecessary burdens or which have been before and after housing costs assessed by his Department as unreasonable. [65088] Median equivalised weekly disposable household income for families (£) Chris Grayling: On 21 March 2011 the Department Tenure type BHC AHC for Work and Pensions announced a review of health Social renters 286 227 and safety regulation, with a view to reducing unnecessary Private renters 321 245 burdens on business. The review is being chaired by Notes: Professor Ragnar Löfstedt. A call for evidence was 1. These statistics are based on households below average income (HBAI) data sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS) This uses disposable household published on 20 May with a closing date for responses income, adjusted using modified OECD equalisation factors for household size of 29 July. The findings of the review are expected to be and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for standard of living. published by the end of November. 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from The Government’s Red Tape Challenge will focus on occupational and private pensions, investment income and other sources. Income health and safety legislation from 30 June to 21 July. tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/domestic rates and some other payments are deducted from incomes. Contributions are invited on which regulations should 3. Figures have been presented on a before housing cost and an after housing be scrapped, amended or left as they are. Professor cost basis. For before housing costs, housing costs are not deducted from Löfstedt will consider the contributions as part of his income, while for after housing costs they are. 4. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree of review. uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. Jobseeker’s Allowance 5. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. For countries and regions within the UK, three survey years have been combined because single year estimates are not considered to be sufficiently reliable. Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 6. Weekly incomes are presented in 2009/10 prices and have been rounded to the nearest pound. and Pensions how many people aged under 25 years in 7. Families are defined as a single adult or couple living as married and any Sunderland Central constituency have been in receipt dependent children, including same sex couples (civil partnerships and cohabitees) of jobseeker’s allowance for more than 12 months. from January 2006. A household is made up of one of more families and is defined as a single person or group of people living at the same address as their [65072] only or main residence, who either share one meal a day together or share the living accommodation (i.e. a living room). In line with the wording of the Chris Grayling: The number of claimants under 25 years question, analysis has been carried out at the family level. Source: old in Sunderland Central constituency, who have been Households below average income (HBAI) 2007/08 to 2009/10 in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance for more than 12 months, is 30. Social Security Benefits Notes: Caseload data is rounded to the nearest 5 Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Source: Pensions if he will publish the modelling on the effect May 2011 caseload data published on: of the overall benefit cap carried out by his https://www.nomisweb.co.uk Department. [64636] 243W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 244W

Chris Grayling: The costing model used to estimate The estimates presented in the reply assume a baseline the effects of the benefit cap uses DWP’s policy simulation of the state pension age equalisation timetable as legislated model (PSM), which is a static microsimulation model by the Pensions Act 1995 and the increase to 66 as based on data from the 2008-09 Family Resources Survey, legislated in the Pensions Act 2007. uprated to the relevant year’s prices, benefit rates and The financial year breakdown of the savings is presented earnings levels. in the following table: The impacts of the policy to introduce a cap on the Savings on DWP spend on benefits overall level of benefits that can be received by households £ billion, 2010-11 prices in receipt of out-of-work benefit are published in the impact assessment and equality impact assessment which 2020-21 2.2 are available on the DWP website: 2021-22 4.5 http://www.dwp.gov.uk/policy/welfare%2Dreform/ 2022-23 4.8 legislation%2Dand%2Dkey%2Ddocuments/ 2023-24 5.0 welfare%2Dreform%2Dbill%2D2011/ 2024-25 3.9 impact%2Dassessments%2Dand%2Dequality/ 2025-26 1.3 Note: Social Security Benefits: Offenders Figures rounded to the nearest £0.1 billion. The financial year breakdown of the savings resulting Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work from the Pensions Bill 2011 timetable is presented in the and Pensions how many ex-offenders in each Jobcentre following table: Plus area who had sanctions placed on their benefits went on to reoffend in the latest period for which Savings on DWP spend on benefits—Pensions Bill 2011 £ billion, 2010-11 prices figures are available. [65784] 2016-17 0.3 Chris Grayling: The information requested is not 2017-18 0.9 routinely collected and could be obtained only at 2018-19 1.7 disproportionate cost. 2019-20 3.3 State Retirement Pensions: Females 2020-21 4.4 2021-22 4.5 2022-23 4.8 Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for 2023-24 5.0 Work and Pensions if he will estimate the effects on the 2024-25 3.9 Exchequer of equalising men and women’s state 2025-26 1.3 pension age as planned under the Pensions Act 1995, Note: and then increasing the state pension age to (a) 66 by Figures rounded to the nearest £0.1 billion. April 2021 and then 66 and a quarter by 2022 and Unemployment: East Midlands 66 and a half by 2024 and (b) to 66 by April 2021 and then 66 and a quarter by 2023 and 66 and a half by 2025. [65753] Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what information his Department Steve Webb: The savings over the period 2020-21 and holds on the average period (a) a man and (b) a 2025-26 accruing from these timetables are (a) £32.4 billion woman aged (i) 30, (ii) 40 and (iii) 50 years in (A) (in 2010-11 prices) and (b) £30.6 billion (in 2010-11 Derby and (B) the east midlands was out of work prices). following loss of employment in the latest period for Between 2026-27 and 2034-35, these timetables would which figures are available. [65792] result in additional savings of £27.3 billion (in 2010/11 prices). Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. The information requested falls within the responsibility Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Work and Pensions if he will estimate the effects on the to reply. Exchequer of equalising men and women’s state Letter from Stephen Penneck: pension age as planned under the Pensions Act 1995, As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I and then increasing the state pension age to 66 by have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking April 2021. [65754] what the average period (a) a man and (b) a woman aged (i) 30, (ii) 40 and (iii) 50 years in (A) Derby and (B) the East Midlands Steve Webb: I refer the hon. Member to the written was out of work following loss of employment in the latest period answer I gave to her on 7 June 2011, Official Report, for which figures are available. (65792) column 277W. The savings estimates presented in that The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment reply are computed in line with the methodology used statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey to prepare the estimates of DWP AME savings published (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions; in the impact assessment presented with the Pensions however estimates for duration of unemployment for these ages Bill 2011. They take into account lower spending on and geographies are not available. An alternative source, the pensioner benefits and higher spending on working age number of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA), is available benefits. for five year age bands from administrative data. The number of people claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) is The estimates presented in the reply are based on the taken from the Jobcentre Plus administrative system. The length current welfare system. Reliance on income-related pension of a claim has been defined as the number of weeks between the benefits and working age benefits is assumed to remain start of an individual’s claim and the date the claim was terminated. in line with current age-specific rates of reliance. Table 1 shows the median length of completed claims for May 2011. 245W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 246W

National and local area estimates for many labour market Number of 18 to 24-year-old JSA claimants statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant England West midlands Dudley borough count are available on the NOMIS website at: 2011 http://www.nomisweb.co.uk January 337,220 47,190 2,920 Table 1: Median length of completed claims of jobseeker’s allowance,1 May 2011 February 355,045 48,720 2,960 Number of weeks March 351,150 48,335 2,915 Derby East midlands April 347,080 47,970 2,960 Age band Male Female Male Female May 337,990 46,855 2,925

30 to 34 11.6 16.2 11.6 11.0 Change May 2010 -485 -505 +75 40 to 44 16.7 13.0 12.1 12.2 to May 2011 50 to 54 9.9 8.0 12.1 11.1 (-0.1%) (-1.1%) (+2.6%) 1 Length of claim data are available only for computerised claims, which Source: account for 99.7% of all claims. Nomis Source: https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/ Jobcentre Plus Administrative System. Tackling the high level of youth unemployment it Unemployment: Young People inherited is a key priority for the coalition Government. Young people will benefit from radical Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work reform of the welfare system which, through the Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the level programme, will create more flexible, personalised of youth unemployment in (a) England, (b) the west support to find work. In addition, the 2011 Budget midlands and (c) Dudley borough in each of the last invested £200 million in support specifically targeted at 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [65216] young people which will include work experience; skills training; guaranteed interviews and progression into Chris Grayling: The headline youth unemployment apprenticeships. figures published by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) cover the UK. These show the number of 16 to Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 24-year-olds unemployed on the International Labour and Pensions what recent discussions he has had with Organisation (ILO) definition in February to April the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and 2011 was 895,000, a fall of 35,000 over the last year. Skills on reducing youth unemployment; and if he will Nearly a third of unemployed young people are full-time publish the minutes of any such meetings. [65486] students; the number not in full-time education and unemployed is 618,000, down 30,000 on the year. The Chris Grayling: The Secretary of State for Work and latest unemployment rate for 16 to 24-year-olds—the Pensions, his ministerial team and the Department’s number unemployed as a proportion of the active labour officials have regular discussions with the Department force—is 19.3%. for Business, Innovation and Skills to discuss matters Figures for England, the west midlands and Dudley relating to youth employment. are available from the Annual Population Survey (APS). As part of the development of the cross-departmental The latest data, covering January to December 2010, participation strategy, which was announced in the show a 16 to 24 ILO unemployment level of 738,000 in social mobility document published in March 2011, England and an unemployment rate of 19.2%. In the Ministers and officials from both Departments, and west midlands the level is 83,000, an unemployment rate from the Department for Education, meet periodically of 21.2%. In Dudley there are around 6,000 unemployed to progress this work with a view to publishing a people, an unemployment rate of 22.5%. document in autumn 2011. APS data are not available monthly. The following There is no standard practice of publishing minutes table shows the number of 18 to 24-year-olds claiming of ministerial discussions, which is in line with established jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) in England, the west midlands principles from the previous Administration that inter- and Dudley over the last 12 months. These figures are ministerial correspondence, discussion and the workings not adjusted for seasonal fluctuation so month-on-month of Ministers’ offices are generally matters performed on changes should not be seen as an indication of the a confidential basis. underlying trend. Comparing the latest May 2011 data with the same month last year suggests the number of Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for JSA claimants aged 18 to 24 has fallen in England and Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the west midlands and risen in Dudley. future trends in the level of youth unemployment in Number of 18 to 24-year-old JSA claimants (a) Liverpool, Walton constituency, (b) Merseyside England West midlands Dudley borough and (c) England and Wales. [65658]

2010 May 338,475 47,360 2,850 Chris Grayling: The Department has made no such June 318,895 44,860 2,745 assessments. July 324,845 45,365 2,785 August 336,775 46,560 2,830 Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work September 341,980 47,465 2,950 and Pensions how many people aged between 16 and October 334,980 46,195 2,855 24 years in Islwyn constituency were not in education, November 326,680 45,235 2,795 employment or training in the latest period for which December 321,125 44,825 2,745 figures are available. [65694] 247W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 248W

Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. Departmental Allowances The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for to reply. Defence what expenses were claimed by (a) paid and Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2011: (b) unpaid special advisers working in his Department As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I in the last 12 months. [62063] have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many people aged between 16 and 24 years in Islwyn Dr Fox: Procedures for reimbursing staff expenses constituency were not in education, employment or training in are set out in the Ministry of Defence (MOD) the latest period for which figures are available. (65694) policy manual and are in line with the provisions set Unfortunately, reliable estimates are not available for this out in the Civil Service Management Code. As information. temporary civil servants, special advisers are subject to Published statistics for those not in education, employment the same rules. or training in Wales can be found on the Welsh Government website at: Records indicate that the three paid special advisers http://wales.gov.uk/topics/statistics/theme/post16ed/part- claimed £70.65 for the period 13 May 2010 to 31 March labour/?lang=en 2011. The MOD does not employ any unpaid special advisers.

DEFENCE Armed Forces: Vehicles INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan: Drugs Defence how many non-combat vehicles leased or hired by his Department were manufactured in (a) the Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for UK, (b) another EU member state and (c) a country International Development what steps his Department outside the EU. [62675] is taking to replace poppy cultivation in Afghanistan with alternative agricultural crops. [65744] Peter Luff: Information on the origin of manufacture of vehicles leased to the Ministry of Defence is only Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International available from the contractors in question and I will Development’s (DFID) programmes promote legal write to the hon. Member as soon as this has been agricultural livelihoods by helping to increase business provided. Information on the origin of manufacture of opportunities and incomes for farmers through promoting hired vehicles is not held centrally and could be provided alternative crops, their storage and processing, increasing only at disproportionate cost. access to local and exports markets, and strengthening Substantive answer from Peter Luff to David Wright: the role of government in setting standards. In my answer to you on 30 June 2011 (Official Report: For example, DFID supports the Comprehensive column 920W), I undertook to write to you and provide details Agricultural and Rural Development Facility which on the origin of manufacture of non-combat vehicles leased to aims to reduce the risk of a resurgence in poppy cultivation, the Ministry of Defence. by creating commercially viable and sustainable alternatives This information has now been received from Babcock Commercial for farmers to generate a profitable income from livestock Hire and Lex Autolease, and I can confirm that as at 15 June and market gardening. 2011, for non-combat vehicles leased by the Ministry of Defence: 4,600 were manufactured in the UK; 7,132 were manufactured in another EU member state; and 3,228 were manufactured in a Libya: Armed Conflict country outside the EU. Local arrangements for the provision of cars outside of these arrangements apply in the smaller commands, Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for and details of these are not held centrally and could only be International Development whether the post-conflict obtained at disproportionate cost. stabilisation force for Libya will be (a) aUNor(b) an Army: Equipment EU military deployment. [64879]

Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UN leads the international what plans he has for the Future Army Equipment response to the Libyan crisis, and will lead post-conflict programme. [64959] stabilisation work. The UK is in discussions with our international and regional partners regarding a post-conflict Peter Luff [holding answer 11 July 2011]: The strategic solution in Libya. It is too early to speculate who and defence and security review set out a requirement for what might be required, but we remain committed to reconnaissance forces, tanks, and armoured, mechanised supporting UN efforts to help the Libyan people build a and light infantry. positive future. The Ministry of Defence is currently undertaking a three month exercise to take forward the work needed South Sudan: Overseas Aid to balance defence priorities and the budget over the long-term. As the Secretary of State for Defence, my Mr Donaldson: To ask the Secretary of State for right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset International Development what proportion of aid his (Dr Fox), has said, it is essential that we put the armed Department has allocated to projects to build the forces’ finances on a firm footing for the years beyond capacity of the Government of South Sudan at (a) the current spending settlement. national, (b) state and (c) county level. [65766] 249W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 250W

Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International Mr Djanogly: My officials are working with the NHS Development (DFID) has allocated assistance for capacity- Litigation Authority (NHSLA) and claimant lawyer building at all levels of government. All DFID-funded representatives to devise a pilot for dealing with clinical development programmes in South Sudan contribute to negligence cases valued from £l,000 up to £25,000. This capacity-building and one, the Capacity-building Trust will have a staged approach with the early exchange of Fund, focuses entirely on this objective. A precise medical details. The pilot is planned to run from April 2012. breakdown by level of government is not possible as In the context of our proposals for the reform of programmes often operate at more than one level. conditional fee agreements as indicated in our response Sudan: Internally Displaced Persons paper “Reforming Civil Litigation Funding and Costs in England and Wales—Implementation of Lord Justice Mr Donaldson: To ask the Secretary of State for Jackson’s Recommendations” (29 March 2011: column International Development what assistance his 173), my officials are also discussing with the NHSLA Department is providing to people displaced from the and other stakeholders how the commissioning of experts Abyei region of Sudan. [65767] reports can be improved. Mr Andrew Mitchell: We are deeply concerned Land Registry about the situation of civilians displaced by the recent fighting in the Abyei region. At present, lack of Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for access to the conflict affected areas and populations Justice when he expects his Department to publish the hinders accurate humanitarian needs assessment by feasibility study on the Land Registry to scope out the humanitarian personnel, but the current UN assessment opportunities arising from private sector investment. is of about 100,000 people displaced. We are working [65748] with the United Nations to ensure that if security and access is granted, assistance will reach these displaced Mr Djanogly: As I explained in my response to your civilians. The UN has reserves of both shelter and previous question on this issue on 11 February 2011, food for such situations. As well as its ongoing support Official Report, column 486W, we do not intend to to the Common Humanitarian Fund, the UK has made publish the findings of the feasibility study at this stage: an additional £10 million available for contingency We do not intend to publish the findings of the feasibility study planning to respond to any emergencies that are linked at this stage. The findings relate to the formulation and development to southern secession. of government policy and are still under consideration by Ministers. We are also working with the UN and wider international Publication might deter Ministers and officials from raising, and community to ensure that the new peacekeeping mission having free and frank discussions, about the full range of possibilities to Abyei, which is made up of Ethiopian troops, is able in relation to any given policy or approach to implementation. This would have a detrimental effect on both the process of to fulfil its mandate to protect civilians who are threatened collective government and the quality of the decision-making. In with imminent physical violence and to facilitate the addition, the findings contain information that if released would, delivery of humanitarian assistance and personnel within or would be likely to, prejudice the commercial interests of Land the Abyei area. Registry and the Ministry of Justice. UN Women We are continuing to give careful consideration to the findings of the feasibility study, particularly with regard Mrs Laing: To ask the Secretary of State for to how the options explored for the Land Registry link International Development what his policy is on with the Government’s wider data policy and the proposals support for UN Women; and if he will make a to establish a Public Data Corporation. statement. [65801] If the preferred option for Land Registry is a materially different ownership structure we remain committed to Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK has strongly supported conducting a full public consultation on the proposals. UN Women from the outset, lobbying hard for its creation, providing transitional funding as it established Office of the Chief Coroner itself and agreeing to a senior staff secondment. Following adoption of UN Women’s strategic plan on 30 June the UK will provide £10 million in core funding to UN Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (a) Women for each of the next two years. This will help whether the Equality and Human Rights (b) UN Women achieve results for girls and women that Commission and Youth Justice Board were include helping 15 countries adopt legislation to tackle consulted in respect of his decision on the Office of the domestic violence, supporting efforts to allow women Chief Coroner. [65769] to participate in political decision-making in 25 countries and holding the UN system to account on gender Mr Djanogly: We did not consult with the Equality equality. and Human Rights Commission or the Youth Justice Board in respect of the decision on the Office of the Chief Coroner. We have, however, discussed our proposals with a number of interested parties. JUSTICE Civil Proceedings Office of the Public Guardian

Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he has any plans to implement a system of early what the average time taken to process cases referred to exchange for medical reports in clinical negligence the Office of the Public Guardian was in the latest cases. [64700] period for which figures are available. [64667] 251W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 252W

Mr Djanogly: Lasting Powers of Attorney (LPAs) Mr Blunt: As with all HM Inspectorate of Prisons were introduced by the Mental Capacity Act 2005 (MCA), establishment inspection reports an action plan will be which was commenced on 1 October 2007. produced responding in detail to each of the Figures on the average time taken by the OPG to recommendations in the report. process an application to register a Lasting Power of Attorney in the current financial year are outlined in the following table. The timescales include a statutory WOMEN AND EQUALITIES six week waiting period during which objections to registration can be made. Equality

Weeks Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Minister for Women April 2011 12 and Equalities (1) when she plans to publish her Department’s response to the Equality Act 2010: The May 2011 12 public sector Equality Duty: reducing bureaucracy June 2011 13 consultation; [64508] For the previous financial year 1 April 2010 to 31 (2) if she will publish her Department’s response to March 2011, the average times to process an application the Equality Act 2010: The public sector Equality in any given month varied between 11 and 14 weeks; the Duty: reducing bureaucracy consultation before average of the monthly figures for 2011-12 was 12.5 Parliament considers the Equality Act 2010 (Specific weeks. Duties) Regulations 2011. [64509]

Personal Injury: Evidence Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 7 July 2011]: On 27 June 2011, draft specific duties regulations were laid Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for before Parliament following the policy review which Justice if he will bring forward proposals to change the took place between 17 March and 21 April 2011. Alongside evidence requirements in relation to whiplash injury in these regulations an Explanatory Memorandum was personal injury cases; and if he will make a statement. published which includes a summary of responses received [65510] to the policy review and to the previous comprehensive consultation on draft regulations that took place in Mr Djanogly: Under the law of negligence, if a person 2010. has been injured as a result of the negligence of another The Explanatory Memorandum explains the person, he or she is entitled to recover compensation for Government’s rationale for their approach and we do the injury. If cases come to court, the claimant must not intend to publish a separate response to the policy provide evidence of the injury suffered in order to review. We are, however, making arrangements to publish satisfy the court that the claim is justified. Restricting the responses received from organisations on the Home the ability to claim in relation to a particular type of Office website. injury could lead to injustice where people who have suffered a genuine injury as a direct result of another’s Equality and Human Rights Commission negligence are prevented from recovering compensation. Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Minister for Women and Prisoners: Repatriation Equalities what the (a) date of purchase, (b) amount, (c) supplier and (d) level 3 or enhanced transaction Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice entry was of each transaction undertaken by the how many foreign national prisoners he expects to Equality and Human Rights Commission using the return to their country of origin to serve their Government Procurement Card in each of the last sentences. [65804] three years. [59051]

Mr Blunt: I have previously indicated to the House Lynne Featherstone: The Equality and Human Rights on 17 May 2011, Official Report, column 140, that we Commission (The Commission) is an arm’s length body; expect to repatriate approximately 60 prisoners in 2011-12. the following is based on information it has provided. The details of Government Procurement Card Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 transactions undertaken by the Commission for (i) 2008-09, (ii) 2009-10 and (iii) 2010-11 have been deposited in the Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Library of the House. This includes, for each transaction: what plans he has to amend the Rehabilitation of (a) date of purchase, (b) amount and (c) supplier. Offenders Act 1974. [65592] Level 3 or enhanced transaction details are not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Mr Blunt: The Government are still considering reform cost; however each transaction does have a merchant of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. category which is a broad description of the type of goods purchased. Rochester Young Offender Institution: Inspections Equality and Human Rights Commission: Accountancy Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what steps he is taking in response to the report by HM Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for Women Inspectorate of Prisons on the announced inspection of and Equalities whether she plans to meet the Chair of HM Young Offenders Institution Rochester of 14 to 18 the Equality and Human Rights Commission to February 2011. [65393] discuss its qualified accounts for 2009-10 audited by 253W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 254W the Comptroller and Auditor General in respect of It does not impose a legal requirement to conduct an matters identified by the Comptroller and Auditor equality impact assessment. Compliance with the Equality General relating to its (a) procurement, (b) Duty involves consciously thinking about its three aims disbursement grants, (c) senior management as part of the process of decision-making, but there is governance and (d) pay remit; and if she will make a no prescribed process for doing this. statement. [61970]

Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 27 June 2011]: Both the Secretary of State for the Home Department FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE and Minister for Women and Equalities, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and I Bahrain: Health Professions have regular discussions with the Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) about a range Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for of issues. These include the Commission’s financial Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent management, its unacceptable failure to produce an reports he has received on the treatment of health unqualified set of accounts since its inception, and its professionals arrested in Bahrain during protests in plans for improving its financial controls to ensure a that country. [64322] better performance in future. We want to reform the EHRC to become a valued Alistair Burt: Our embassy in Bahrain has been able and respected national human rights institution and to attend some of the many trials currently taking place equalities regulator, but for that to happen it needs to in the National Safety Courts, including the trials of the get its own house in order. 48 medical staff. Our primary concerns in the legal process have been the methods of arrest, early access to Equality Impact Assessments legal counsel, allegations of abuse in detention, methods of interrogation, alleged coerced confessions, the charges brought against defendants, and the implications that Mr Marsden: To ask the Minister for Women and medical professionals may not be allowed to carry out Equalities whether the Government Equalities Office their duties without fear of recrimination. provides guidance to Government Departments on the period of time to be allowed between the completion of The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth an equality impact assessment and implementation of Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond the policy the assessment covers. [63480] (Yorks) (Mr Hague), raised UK concerns about the trial of medical staff when he met the Crown Prince of Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 4 July 2011]: Bahrain on 25 May 2011. I also raised the issue in my The Government Equalities Office (GEO) guidance, as public statement of 1 June 2011. Our ambassador to set out in its recent quick start guide for public sector Bahrain continues to raise our concerns at the highest organisations on the public sector Equality Duty, makes level with the Government of Bahrain to ensure that clear that timeliness is essential in order for the Equality due process is followed in all cases and that human Duty to be fulfilled. The Duty must be complied with rights are fully respected. before and at the time that a particular policy is under consideration or a decision is taken, and also when it is Bahrain: Politics and Government implemented and reviewed. The Duty is a continuing one. The GEO does not specify the period of time to be Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State allowed between completion of the relevant equality for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has analysis and policy implementation. discussed with his Bahraini counterpart allegations of The Equality Duty does not impose a legal requirement intimidation of protestors outside the Bahrain embassy to conduct an equality impact assessment. Compliance in London. [63089] with the Duty involves consciously thinking about its three aims as part of the process of decision-making, Mr Hague: Our ambassador in Bahrain has raised but there is no prescribed process for doing this. the cancellation of Government scholarships of some of the Bahrainis who protested in the UK with the Mr Marsden: To ask the Minister for Women and Minister of Justice in May. The scholarships were Equalities if she will estimate the average amount of subsequently reinstated. time taken for completion of an equality impact We have not been approached about any further assessment which is not published at the same time as allegations of intimidation of protesters outside the the policy proposal which it covers by the relevant Bahrain embassy, nor have FCO officials received any Government department; and if she will make a further reports in their conversations with the police. I statement. [63481] have not therefore raised this with my counterpart the Minister for Foreign Affairs, H.E. Shaikh Khalid Bin Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 4 July 2011]: Ahmed Bin Mohamed Al Khalifa. If evidence were to The Government Equalities Office does not collate this come to light we would of course respond. information, as there is no reason to do so. Therefore, it My discussions with the Government of Bahrain are would be inappropriate to make any such estimation. focused on ensuring that the National Dialogue leads to The Equality Duty requires public bodies to eliminate genuine political reform, which meets the legitimate unlawful discrimination; advance equality of opportunity; aspirations of the people, and ensuring that the Government and foster good relations between people who share a of Bahrain responds to the reports of human rights protected characteristic and people who do not share it. abuses. 255W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 256W

Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for transition to civilian democracy and the key step of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he pluralistic parliamentary elections during his visit to has received on the alleged use by Saudi troops Egypt on 2 May 2011. It is important that the people’s deployed in Bahrain of vehicles supplied by UK-based voice is heard through free and fair democratic elections companies; and if he will make a statement. [65803] leading to a return to civilian Government.

Alistair Burt: We have seen no evidence that UK European Union equipment and vehicles supplied to the Saudi Arabian forces were used in a repressive way in Bahrain since we have seen no evidence that Saudi or other GCC forces Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State have done anything other than safeguard installations for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent in Bahrain. estimate he has made of the economic benefit of UK membership of the EU. [64923] Departmental Travel Mr Hague: HM Treasury regularly reviews, for the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for benefit of Parliament and the public, a wide range of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his studies by external commentators that attempt to assess Department spent on special advisers’ travel by (a) the economic cost and benefits of the UK’s membership Government car, (b) private hire car, (c) train, (d) of the European Union. bus, (e) commercial aircraft and (f) private aircraft in The most recent update, along with a previous literature each year between May 2004 and May 2010. [58944] review from 2005, is published on the Treasury’s website: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/foi_disclosures_index.htm Mr Lidington: A breakdown of travel costs for Foreign following a request under the Freedom of Information and Commonwealth Office (FCO) special advisers between Act. Neither review is a cost-benefit analysis. Rather, April 2008 and April 2010 when accompanying the then both reviews summarise published evidence on the economic Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth impacts of the UK’s membership of the European Affairs is as follows: Union (EU), and cover for example the reported impacts (a) Government car—None on UK trade, foreign direct investment and productivity. (b) Private hire car—£1,604.15 The Government are clear in their view that EU (c) Train (including Europe)—£387 membership is in the UK’s national interest. For example (d) Bus—None and as set out in the BIS Trade and Investment Analytical (e) Commercial aircraft—£46,203.13 Paper No 4 - The UK and the Single Market, which can (f) Private aircraft—travel for my right hon. Friend and his team be found at: travelling on private aircraft was not costed on an individual http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/international-trade- basis, but for the group as a whole. investment-and-development/docs/u/11-719-uk-and-single- Detailed information on costings has not been retained market.pdf for the years previous to April 2008. the Single Market is the world’s most important trading The total cost of FCO ministerial and private office zone, generating total GDP close to £10 billion in 2010 travel (including special advisers) is published on a and providing us access to 500 million consumers without quarterly basis. the barriers of customs or tariffs. European markets account for half of the UK’s overall trade and foreign Egypt: Constitutions investments and as a result, around 3.5 million jobs in the UK are linked to the export of goods and services to Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for the EU. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with his Egyptian counterpart on the Greece: Asylum constitutional declaration which states the principles of sharia law should be the basis of any new constitution. Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for [64966] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of 4 July 2011, Official Report, columns Alistair Burt: Article 2 of the Constitutional Declaration 1030-31W, on Greece: asylum, how many UK experts of 30 March 2011 reiterated the language on sharia are seconded to the European Asylum Support Office; law set out in Egypt’s 1971 Constitution. The and what plans he has for the future number of such Declaration also set out that members of the first secondments. [64715] People’s Assembly and Shura Council will elect a provisional assembly to prepare a new draft constitution, which will be presented to the people in a referendum. It is not for Damian Green: I have been asked to reply. the UK to dictate what should be acceptable to the No UK experts are currently seconded to the European Egyptian people, but we encourage the Egyptian Asylum Support Office (EASO). However, the UK Government to continue to consider wider constitutional Border Agency seconded one official between 23 February reform in due course. and 24 March 2011 to work with EASO in Greece and The Declaration also provided further clarity on the plans to second a further two, also to work in Greece, in transition process, which we welcomed. The Secretary the near future. of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my The UK Border Agency would be happy to agree right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) further secondments beyond these at EASO’s request, if (Mr Hague) reiterated the UK’s support for a successful its resources permitted. 257W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 258W

Libya: Politics and Government a notice containing details of the sanctions against the ports on its website, which was also emailed to several Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State thousand subscribers. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs who the National Malaya and Borneo Veterans Association members are of the Libya contact group. [64915] George Freeman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hague: Membership of the International Contact Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent (a) Group has varied over time. At the time of the last meetings and (b) correspondence he has had with the meeting of the group in Abu Dhabi, on 9 June, 2011, National Malaya and Borneo Veterans Association; 27 countries and international organisations attended and if he will make a statement. [63188] as members and 14 countries and international organisations attended as observers. Alistair Burt: There have not been any recent meetings At the 9 June meeting the member countries/ with the National Malaya and Borneo Veterans Association. organisations were: Australia, Bahrain, Belgium, Canada, The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has received Denmark, EU, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Japan, correspondence from members of the association relating Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libyan Delegation, Luxemburg to the decision by the Committee on the Grant of (represented by Belgium), Malta, Morocco, NATO, Honours, Decorations and Medals to allow the Pingat Netherlands (represented by Belgium), Norway (represented Jasa Malaysia medal to be accepted but not worn. by Denmark), Poland, Qatar, Spain, Sweden( represented Pakistan: Religious Freedom by Denmark), United Kingdom, United Nations. The observer countries/organisations were: African Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Union, Arab League, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Egypt, GCC, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent OIC, Portugal, Romania, South Africa, Sudan, The discussions he has had with his Pakistani counterpart Vatican, Tunisia, and the World Bank. on the protection of religious freedoms in Pakistan. [65488] Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what funds Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and have been provided to the Transitional National Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Council in Libya through the temporary financing for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) discussed minority mechanism; and on what date those funds were rights and religious freedoms with Acting Foreign Minister supplied. [64916] Hina Rabbani Khar when he visited Islamabad in June. We engage regularly with both the Ministry for Inter-faith Mr Hague: Qatar has provided $100 million to the Harmony and Minority affairs and with the Ministry of National Transitional Council (NTC) in Libya through Human Rights. Most recently, I met with the Minister the temporary financing mechanism. Those funds were for Human Rights and the Prime Minister’s adviser for supplied on 23 June 2011. Religious Minorities on 5 and 7 July 2011. We call on the Government of Pakistan to uphold the Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State fundamental rights of all Pakistanis, regardless of their for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he faith or ethnicity. expects any further funds to be supplied to the Sudan: Armed Conflict Transitional National Council in Libya through the temporary financing mechanism. [64917] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he Mr Hague: Qatar has contributed $100 million, and has received on military strikes in the Kordofan state in Kuwait pledged at the last International Contact Group Sudan. [65438] meeting to contribute approximately $180 million to the National Transitional Council (NTC). We expect this in Mr Bellingham: Recent reports suggest that violence the near future. We are engaging with other potential is continuing in many parts of Southern Kordofan. contributors. There are reports of aerial attacks by Sudanese armed forces; of abuses against civilians carried out by soldiers Libya: Sanctions from both sides; and of innocent civilians being caught up in the violence. The British Government condemns Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State the ongoing violence and calls all parties to cease hostilities for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent immediately. The recent Framework Agreement on assessment he has made of the implementation of EU Southern Kordofan and Blue Nile is a step in the right sanctions in ports in western Libya. [64913] direction but must lead to a ceasefire without delay, so that humanitarian aid can reach those in need, and Mr Hague: The UK and European Union (EU) talks on the future of Southern Kordofan can take partners are committed to the robust implementation of place without continuing violence. sanctions against Libya. The implementation of restrictive We urge the parties to keep to the commitments made measures is a matter for competent authorities in each in the framework agreement, and work urgently for a member state of the EU. In the UK, the asset freeze peaceful and long lasting resolution. against designated port authorities in Western Libya has direct effect in UK law via Council Regulation Mr Donaldson: To ask the Secretary of State for 572/2011. Criminal and civil penalties for breaching the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is asset freeze prohibitions are contained in the Libya taking to facilitate a peaceful solution to the situation (Asset-Freezing) Regulations 2011. HM Treasury published in the Abyei region of Sudan. [65768] 259W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 260W

Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and The Deputy Prime Minister: I refer the right hon. Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Member to the reply given by the Secretary of State for for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), chaired a meeting Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham of the Foreign Secretary’s Advisory Group on Human and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), on 11 July 2011, Official Rights on 8 June 2011, which Amnesty International Report, column 6W. attended, and where the situation in Syria was discussed. Foreign and Commonwealth Office officials have regular contact with Amnesty International, discussing a wide range of human rights issues, including Syria. CABINET OFFICE Syria Birth Rate Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Mr Amess: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office briefing was provided by officials of his Department to what the male to female birth ratio was (a) in 1981, the hon. Member for Braintree before his meeting with (b) in 1983, (c) in 1987, (d) in 1992, (e) in 1997, (f) President Assad of Syria in June 2011. [64838] in 2001, (g) in each year between 2002 and 2007 and (h) on the most recent date for which figures are Mr Hague: Officials from my Department met the available. [64650] Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury, my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark), Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the in London on 23 and 24 June. They provided him with responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have briefing to make clear the UK position on the asked the authority to reply. unacceptable violence in Syria and the steps we think Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2011: the Syrian regime should take to stop the violence and As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I begin meaningful political reform. Officials also updated have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking him on the situation on the ground immediately prior to what the male to female birth ratio was in (a) 1981, (b) 1983, (c) 1987, (d) 1992, (e) 1997, (f) 2001 (g) each year between 2002 and his trip. 2007 and (h) on the most recent date for which figures are Yemen: Arms Trade available. [64650] The latest year for which figures are available is 2009. The table Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for below shows the sex ratio for live births occurring in England and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he Wales for the years requested. has received on the alleged transfer on 14 March 2011 Sex ratio1 for live births, selected years between 1981 and 2009, England and of armoured vehicles and personnel carriers from Wales Saudi Arabia to Yemen; and if he will make a Sex ratio: live male births per 1,000 live female births statement. [65802] 1981 1,055 Alistair Burt: Our embassy in Sana’a reported on 16 1983 1,056 March 2011 that a Saudi vessel unloaded 75 armoured 1987 1,053 vehicles at the port of Aden and that it appeared that 1992 1,053 these were received by the Government of Yemen. 1997 1,051 There was no further detail and we have received no 2001 1,050 confirmation of the report. 2002 1,055 2003 1,051 2004 1,054 LEADER OF THE HOUSE 2005 1,049 Administration Committee, Catering and Retail 2006 1,047 Services 2007 1,057 2009 1,052 1 The sex ratio shows the number of live male births per 1,000 live female births Mr Frank Field: To ask the Leader of the House Data in the table above are available for the years 1999-2000 in what representations he has received on the First table 1 at: Report of the Administration Committee, Catering www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_population/ and Retail Services in the House of Commons, summarytables.xls HC 560. [65515] The sex ratio at birth for 2010 will be published on the ONS website on 13 July 2011. Sir George Young: None. It is for the House of Commons Commission and Mr Speaker to respond to the Committee’s report. Civil Service: Yorkshire Hugh Bayley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Office how many full-time equivalent civil servants were employed in (a) York and (b) Yorkshire and the National Assembly for Wales: Elections Humber in (i) May 1997 and (ii) May of each subsequent year. [65674] Paul Murphy: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the for Wales about new electoral arrangements for the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have National Assembly for Wales. [64996] asked the authority to reply. 261W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 262W

Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2011: The estimates provided for Yorkshire and the Humber are As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I based on the Mandate collection supplemented by departmental have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking returns (1997-2005) and the Annual Civil Service Employment how many full-time equivalent civil servants were employed in (a) Survey (2007-2010) both of which provide 100 per cent coverage York and (b) Yorkshire and the Humber in (i) May 1997 and (ii) of Civil Service departments and agencies. The estimate for 2006 May of each subsequent year. (65674). is based on the Mandate collection only and provides approximately 90 per cent coverage. In order to provide the information requested for York, ad hoc analysis has been required. This analysis is based on the Mandate The survey reference points for the estimates are, 1 April for collection (1997-2006), which provides approximately 90 per cent years 1997-2005, 30 September 2006-2007 and 31 March for coverage of Civil Service departments, though for years prior to 2008-2010. Estimates relating to May of each year are not available. 2003 coverage is lower. The Annual Civil Service Employment Survey has been used for 2007-2010 estimates, and this provides The estimates for York and Yorkshire and the Humber are 100 per cent coverage. shown in Table 1.

Table 1: Civil service employment in York and Yorkshire and the Humber1 Permanent employees, full-time equivalent 19972 19982 19992 20002 20012 20022 20032 20042 20052 20063 20073 20084 20094 20104

Yo rk 5 1,560 1,460 1,490 1,630 1,760 2,140 2,420 2,760 2,850 2,750 62,850 62,860 62,970 62,960 Yorkshire 32,270 32,010 32,030 33,060 33,890 35,050 35,570 39,140 38,670 34,500 36,330 36,370 36,580 37,200 and the Humber7 1 Numbers are rounded to the nearest 10, and numbers less than five are represented by ‘—’. 2 Survey reference date 1 April. 3 Survey reference date 30 September. 4 Survey reference date 31 March. 5 1997-2006 Mandate only—incomplete coverage of Civil Service departments. 2007-2009 Annual Civil Service Employment Survey. 6 The Annual Civil Service Employment Survey uses post code to derive location. The former Central Science Laboratory (CSL), now Food and Environment Research Agency (FERA) is now classified as being in Ryedale based on post code information but is included here for consistency with previously published estimates. 7 1997-2005 Mandate and departmental returns. 2006 Mandate only—incomplete coverage of Civil Service departments. 2007-2010 Annual Civil Service Employment Survey. Sources: Mandate collection (1997-2006) Annual Civil Service Employment Survey (2007-2010)

Cybercrime collated and published at EU level and the most recent return, for the year 2009, can be found at: Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Minister for the http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/ Cabinet Office (1) what his most recent assessment is of product_details/dataset?p_product_code=TSIER090 the threat faced by the UK from cyber attack; and what Directors of Public Prosecutions his policy is on how to respond to that threat; [64840] (2) what the timetable is for delivery of all cyber Helen Goodman: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet security programmes initiated since May 2010. [64841] Office whether former Directors of Public Prosecutions and senior officials of the Crown Prosecution Service Mr Maude: This Government have recognised the are required to clear any contractual arrangements real and increasing risk to the UK’s national security with external organisations contemplated within a from cyber attack. The National Security Council has specified period of leaving office with the Advisory assessed cyber security as a Tier 1 threat in the National Committee on Business Appointments in the Cabinet Security Strategy published on 18 October 2010, Official Office. [65743] Report, column 48WS. The Government take the issue of cyber security very Mr Maude: Under the Civil Service Management seriously and have recently announced additional funding Code all civil servants, including Directors of Public of £650 million to protect the United Kingdom and to Prosecutions, are subject to the business appointment respond effectively to threats from cyberspace. rules for two years after leaving office. The National Cyber Security Programme (NCSP) went live in April 2011 and is managed by the Office of Immigration Cyber Security and Information Assurance (OCSIA). The NSCP will run over four years. Mr Clappison: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many and what proportion of (a) UK Departmental Contracts nationals, (b) non-UK EU nationals and (c) non-EU nationals were in (i) full-time and (ii) part-time employment in the UK in each year since 1997; and Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet what the percentage rate of change was for UK Office whether the Government collects information on nationals in each type of employment as a proportion the countries in which its suppliers are based. [65050] of the UK working age population in each of those years. [64525] Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office, on behalf of the UK public sector, collates an annual statistical return to Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the the EU on contracts awarded above the EU threshold, responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have including the nationality of the supplier. These data are asked the authority to reply. 263W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 264W

Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2011: EU nationals and non-UK and EU nationals by full-time and As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I part-time employment for each year since 1997. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Table 3 shows UK nationals by type of employment as a how many and what proportion of (a) UK nationals, (b) non-UK percentage of the total UK population aged 16-64 over the same EU nationals and (c) non-EU nationals were in (i) full-time and time period. (ii) part-time employment in the UK in each year since 1997; and Labour market statistics published in the monthly “Labour what the percentage rate of change was for UK nationals in each Market Statistical Bulletin” previously described as working age type of employment as a proportion of the UK working age (men aged 16-64 and women aged 16-59) have now been replaced population in each of those years. 64525 with statistics based on those aged 16-64 for both men and Tables 1 and 2, as follows, show estimates of the total number women. Consequently, the estimates provided have been produced and proportion of persons employed for UK nationals, non-UK on this basis.

Table 1: People aged 16 and over in employment by full-time and part-time and by nationality. Three months ending March, 1997 to 2011. United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted

Thousand

Total in employment1 UK nationals Non-UK EU2 nationals Non-UK and non-EU nationals

Part- Part- Part- Full- Part- Total3 Full-time time Total3 Full-time time Total3 Full-time time Total3 time time

1997 26,245 19,618 6,618 25,316 18,921 6,387 216 161 56 510 382 128

1998 26,546 19,870 6,671 25,507 19,097 6,405 242 176 66 588 445 143

1999 26,909 20,105 6,801 25,855 19,295 6,559 271 203 67 571 447 124

2000 27,239 20,323 6,910 26,148 19,507 6,638 279 211 68 633 474 158

2001 27,505 20,487 7,005 26,306 19,578 6,717 293 223 71 711 533 177

2002 27,674 20,651 7,014 26,411 19,683 6,721 325 262 63 768 582 184

2003 27,966 20,724 7,229 26,606 19,686 6,908 346 265 81 846 644 200

2004 28,327 20,893 7,423 26,886 19,792 7,084 412 318 93 878 670 207

2005 28,635 21,337 7,286 27,001 20,056 6,933 478 382 96 999 779 220

2006 28,863 21,509 7,342 27,064 20,101 6,951 605 490 114 1,057 812 244

2007 28,976 21,545 7,419 26,947 19,934 7,002 923 769 154 1,101 839 261

2008 29,417 21,873 7,504 27,116 20,024 7,057 1,088 913 173 1,206 930 273

2009 29,074 21,490 7,534 26,713 19,640 7,028 1,119 909 208 1,235 936 296

2010 28,726 20,969 7,700 26,459 19,264 7,145 1,077 847 227 1,185 855 326

2011 *29,142 *21,176 *7,910 *26,636 *19,264 *7,325 *1,308 *1,041 **263 *1,193 *868 **319

Table 2: Proportion of people aged 16 and over in employment by full-time and part-time and by nationality. Three months ending March, 1997 to 201. United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Percentage Total in employment1 UK nationals Non-UK EU2 nationals Non-UK and non-EU nationals Full- Part- Full- Part- Full- Part- Full- Part- Total3 time time Total3 time time Total3 time time Total3 time time

1997 58 43 15 58 43 15 60 44 15 50 38 13 1998 58 44 15 58 44 15 62 45 17 52 39 13 1999 59 44 15 59 44 15 60 45 15 50 39 11 2000 59 44 15 59 44 15 62 47 15 52 39 13 2001 59 44 15 60 44 15 63 48 15 51 38 13 2002 59 44 15 60 44 15 64 52 12 52 40 13 2003 60 44 15 60 44 16 65 50 15 54 41 13 2004 60 44 16 60 44 16 60 47 14 57 44 13 2005 60 45 15 60 45 15 66 53 13 59 46 13 2006 60 45 15 60 45 15 68 55 13 59 46 14 2007 60 44 15 60 44 15 68 56 11 57 43 13 2008 60 45 15 60 44 16 70 59 11 59 45 13 2009 59 44 15 59 43 15 69 56 13 59 45 14 265W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 266W

Table 2: Proportion of people aged 16 and over in employment by full-time and part-time and by nationality. Three months ending March, 1997 to 201. United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Percentage Total in employment1 UK nationals Non-UK EU2 nationals Non-UK and non-EU nationals Full- Part- Full- Part- Full- Part- Full- Part- Total3 time time Total3 time time Total3 time time Total3 time time

2010 58 42 15 58 42 16 67 53 14 56 40 15 2011 58 42 16 58 42 16 70 56 14 57 41 15 1 Includes those who did not state their country of birth. 2 1995 Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Irish Republic, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Austria, Finland and Sweden 2005 Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia join 2007 Bulgaria and Romania join 3 Includes those who did not state whether they were in full-time or part-time employment. Note: Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an indication of the quality of the estimates, are described as follows: Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. Key: * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise **5=CV<10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes CV = Coefficient of Variation Source: ONS Labour Force Survey

Table 3: UK Nationals by type of employment as a percentage of UK population aged 16 to 64. Three months ending March, 1997 to 2011. United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Thousand and percentage UK nationals as a percentage of UK working age population1 UK population aged 16-64 Total (percentage) In employment Full-time Part-time Not in employment1

1997 36,685 96 68 51 17 28 1998 36,821 95 68 52 17 27 1999 37,002 95 69 52 17 27 2000 37,217 95 69 52 17 26 2001 37,461 95 69 52 17 26 2002 37,693 94 69 52 17 26 2003 37,920 94 69 52 17 25 2004 38,194 94 69 51 18 25 2005 38,542 94 69 52 17 25 2006 38,899 93 68 51 17 25 2007 39,236 92 67 50 17 25 2008 39,513 92 67 50 17 25 2009 39,718 91 66 49 17 26 2010 39,927 91 64 48 17 27 2011 40,118 91 64 47 17 27 1 Both unemployed and inactive Source: ONS Labour Force Survey

Job Creation Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2011: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Ms Buck: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what proportion of new jobs created in (a) the public what proportion of new jobs created in (a) the public sector and sector and (b) the private sector in each of the last (b) the private sector in each of the last three years were part-time. 64876 three years were part-time. [64876] I regret that estimates of job creation are not available. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the As an alternative, the table provided shows the number of responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have people in full-time and part-time employment for the public and asked the authority to reply. private sector, over the same period.

Full-time and part-time employment levels in the public and private sector1, three months ending March, 2009 to 2011—United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted

Thousand and percentage

Private2 Public3

Proportion of Part Proportion of Full Proportion of Part Proportion of Full time private sector time private sector Total time public sector time public sector Total

2009 16,367 75 5,390 25 21,771 5,085 71 2,076 29 7,165

2010 15,880 74 5,460 26 21,354 5,044 70 2,147 30 7,193 267W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 268W

Full-time and part-time employment levels in the public and private sector1, three months ending March, 2009 to 2011—United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Thousand and percentage Private2 Public3 Proportion of Part Proportion of Full Proportion of Part Proportion of Full time private sector time private sector Total time public sector time public sector Total

2011 16,062 74 5,620 26 21,697 5,055 70 2,195 30 7,253 1 It should be noted that public and private sector estimates: are based on survey respondents’ views about the organisation for which they work; do not correspond to the National Accounts definition used for official Public Sector Employment estimates. 2 Includes self-employed and unpaid family workers. 3 Includes nationalised industry or state corporation, central Government, civil service, local government or council (incl. police, fire services and local authority controlled schools or colleges), university or other grant funded educational establishment, health authority or NHS trust and armed forces. Source: ONS Labour Force Survey

New Businesses Mr Maude: In line with the Government’s statement at Budget we will be publishing a statement on the Michael Fallon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Public Data Corporation (PDC) data policy in the Office how many new businesses have started up in (a) autumn which will cover these points. Sevenoaks, (b) West Kent and (c) Kent since 6 September 2010. [65516] BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Arms Trade: Saudi Arabia responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2011: Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) standard As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I individual export licences, (b) standard individual have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question trans-shipment licences, (c) open individual export asking how many new businesses have started up in (a) Sevenoaks, licences, (d) open individual trade control licences, (e) (b) West Kent and (c) Kent since 6 September 2010. [65516] standard individual trade control licences and (f) Annual statistics on the number of enterprise births are available Council Regulation 1236/2005 licences have been from the ONS release on Business Demography at withdrawn from Saudi Arabia since March 2011. www.statistics.gov.uk [65169] However, statistics for 2010 will not be available until December Mr Prisk: Six standard individual export licences 2011. have been voluntarily surrendered by the exporter. No licences have been revoked by the Government. Public Data Corporation Business: York

Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Minister for the Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Cabinet Office what progress has been made in the Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses development of the Public Data Corporation. [65746] there were in (a) York Central constituency and (b) City of York local authority area in (i) May 1997, (ii) Mr Maude: Since announcing the Public Data May 2010 and (iii) the latest date for which figures are Corporation in January 2011, significant progress has available. [65676] been made. My officials are working closely with their counterparts in the Shareholder Executive in the Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and The information requested falls within the responsibility HM Treasury. of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority As announced in the Budget earlier this year, we are to reply. considering the merits of machinery of government Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2011: changes to facilitate the development of a Public Data As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Corporation (PDC) through a sponsoring Department. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking We are putting in place a Transition Board (previously how many businesses there were in (a) York Central constituency referred to as the Shadow Board) which will be jointly and (b) City of York local authority area in (i) May 1997, (ii) May 2010 and (iii) the latest date for which figures are available. chaired by myself and the Minister for Employment [65676] Relations, Consumer and Postal Affairs, the hon. Member Annual statistics on the number of enterprises are available for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey). This Transition from the ONS release; UK Business: Activity, Size and Location Board will oversee the establishment of the PDC Board. at www.statistics.gov.uk. These estimates relate to the count of live businesses in March of each year, not May. The earliest Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Minister for the period for which reliable estimates are available is 2000. As the constituency of York Central only came into effect on 6 May Cabinet Office when he expects to announce (a) the 2010 the former constituency of City of York has been used agencies and data to be included in the Public Data for 2000. Corporation, (b) how the data will be made available, The table below provides estimates for the number of enterprises (c) what the licensing terms will be for the data and for (a) City of York constituency for 2000 and York Central (d) who will oversee and regulate the corporation. constituency for 2010 and, (b) York Unitary Authority for both [65747] 2000 and 2010. 269W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 270W

Count enterprises for York Unitary Authority, City of York (2000) and York Green Investment Bank Central (2010) Constituency Number Meg Hillier: To ask the Secretary of State for 2000 Business, Innovation and Skills (1) when he plans to City of York 2,655 announce the location of the headquarters of the York Unitary Authority 4,645 Green Investment Bank; [64798] 2010 (2) what assessment he has made of (a) the numbers York Central 2,715 of new staff and (b) staff costs required by the Green York Unitary Authority 5,745 Investment Bank after (i) one year and (ii) five years. [64848]

Consumers: Contracts Mr Prisk: The Green Investment Bank’s location will be decided after state aid approval has been given and Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for an announcement will follow that decision. Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his It is not envisaged that the Green Investment Bank Department is taking to ensure the rights of customers will employ a large number of staff. During this Parliament, with respect to statutory provisions for cooling-off it is expected to grow to a staff level of between 50 and periods. [64727] 100 employees. It is too early to make assessments about staff costs. Mr Davey: The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 and the Cancellation of Higher Education: Finance Contracts made in a Consumer’s Home or Place of Work etc. Regulations 2008 provide consumers with a Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for cooling-off period of seven days for consumers purchasing Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking most goods and services at a distance or away from to encourage philanthropy to universities following the business premises. It is proposed that the new EU recommendations of the Browne Review. [64260] consumer rights directive will extend these cooling-off periods to 14 days. This will be implemented into UK Mr Willetts: The Higher Education White Paper has law. set out the Government’s proposals to encourage The Financial Services (Distance Marketing) philanthropic giving to universities. This includes fully Regulations 2004, the Consumer Credit (EU Directive) funding the final year of the £200 million matched Regulations 2010, the Timeshare, Holiday Products, funding scheme for voluntary giving, which is expected Resale and Exchange Contracts Regulations 2010 and to leverage an additional £400 million in donations to the Trading Schemes Regulations 1997 all provide English higher education institutions by the end of the consumers with a cooling-off period of 14 days. scheme. We will also explore ways Government can The Supply of Extended Warranties on Domestic support existing mechanisms for voluntary giving, including Electrical Goods Order 2005 provides consumers who among graduates. purchase such warranties with a 45 day cooling-off Additionally, the 2011 Budget contains a number of period. The OFT is currently reviewing the effectiveness measures which we expect to benefit philanthropic giving of this legislation. to universities, including a 10% cut in inheritance tax for estates which leave at least 10% to charities. Furthermore, the Cabinet Office Giving White Paper announced a Flexible Working profile-raising campaign for payroll giving and a philanthropy committee to consider honours for notable Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for philanthropists. Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to improve flexible working rights for parents with Higher Education: Private Sector children with special educational needs. [65582] Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davey: On the 16 May 2011, I launched the Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Modern Workplaces Consultation, which includes of 19 May 2011, Official Report, column 333W, on proposals on how we are going to meet the commitment higher education: private sector, whether and on what we made when entering Government; to extend the dates the Minister of State for Universities and Science right to request flexible working to all employees. had unofficial meetings with representatives of the Parents of children under 17, parents of disabled other bodies referred to in the question. [64478] children under 18, and carers of certain adults already have the right to request flexible working, and many use Mr Willetts: I have not held any meetings with it to help manage their work and caring responsibilities representatives of Bridgepoint, Lincoln, Corinthian, effectively, including when their child has special educational Kaiser, Rasmussen, Career Education Corporation and needs. Westwood. This extension will open up flexible working to all A quarterly-updated list of all BIS ministerial meetings employees and will help embed the culture of flexible with external organisations is also available at: working within businesses, enabling many more employees http://data.gov.uk/dataset/disclosure-ministerial-hospitality- to benefit from it. received-department-for-business 271W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 272W

HOME DEPARTMENT Arrests

Access to Work Programme Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many people were (a) Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for the arrested for and (b) charged with an offence under Home Department how many disabled people are section (i) 4, (ii) 16, (iii) 18, (iv) 20 to 24 and (v) 47 of being supported in employment in her Department the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in (A) under its access to work programme. [65043] 2006-07, (B) 2007-08 (C) 2008-09 and (D) 2009-10; Damian Green: The Home Office is currently [64162] supporting 14 people with disabilities for whom it has (2) how many people were arrested on suspicion of received access to work recommendations from the murder between 2006-07 and 2009-10; and how many Jobcentre Plus Access to Work Operational Support of them were charged with that offence; [64163] Unit. (3) how many people were arrested on suspicion of In addition the Home Office, through its reasonable manslaughter between 2006-07 and 2009-10; and how adjustments policy provides support to all staff with a many of them were charged with that offence; [64164] disability who need reasonable, workable and effective (4) how many people were arrested for false adjustments. imprisonment between 2006-07 and 2009-10; and how many of them were charged with that offence; [64165] Animal Experiments (5) how many people were arrested on suspicion of kidnapping between 2006-07 and 2009-10; and how Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the many of them were charged with that offence. [64166] Home Department on what date the Government announced its proposals to prohibit the testing on Mrs May [holding answer 6 July 2011]: The animals of household products and their ingredients; information requested on arrests and subsequent by what date she expects the prohibition to be charges is not available. implemented; and what the reason is for the time taken to implement it. [65081] Information on arrests reported to the Home Office is not broken down below main offence group level. Lynne Featherstone: The announcement on the There is no link on record between these data and any coalition’s commitment to end the testing of subsequent outcome. household products on animals has yet to be made although we will be making a statement shortly. Asylum Animal Experiments: EU Law Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the UK Border Agency will Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the complete its review of the screening process for Home Department what role responses to the detecting vulnerable persons. [64867] consultation on the options for transposing European Directive 2010/63/EU will play in decisions on the Damian Green: The Asylum Screening Reform future role and operation of the Animals Scientific Programme is looking at improvements that can be Procedures Inspectorate. [65368] made within the Asylum Screening Unit to the physical environment, the screening process and to staff skills. Lynne Featherstone: The public consultation on The aims of the programme are to make the asylum European Directive 2010/63/EU closes on the system both more efficient and more responsive to the 5 September 2011. Decisions on the options for needs of applicants. Improvements to the screening transposition will take careful account of the responses arrangements are already under way; and will continue received. throughout this year.

Animal Scientific Procedures Inspectorate: Manpower Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the UK Border Agency will Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the pause in its removal of asylum seekers until the new Home Department how many staff are in post within screening process can determine whether those the Animals Scientific Procedures Inspectorate; and currently in Detention Fast Track have been victims of what the equivalent number was in 2007. [65278] physical, psychological, or sexual abuse. [64868]

Lynne Featherstone: There are currently 25 staff in Damian Green: No. The Asylum Screening Reform post within the Animals Scientific Procedures Programme is looking at improvements that can be Inspectorate. As at 31 December 2007 there were made within the Asylum Screening Unit to the physical 28 staff in post. environment, the screening process and to staff skills. Anti-Slavery Day The aims of the programme are to make the asylum system both more efficient and more responsive to the Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the needs of applicants. Home Department what plans the Government has to If any asylum applicant within the Detained Fast mark Anti-Slavery Day on 18 October 2011. [64402] Track procedure claims to have been the victim of abuse, this claim is considered by the case owner who Damian Green [holding answer 7 July 2011]: The has responsibility for authorising, maintaining and Government will announce their plans in due course. reviewing their detention. 273W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 274W

Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: The Home Office does not keep Home Department when the UK Border Office plans records of meeting requests that have been declined by to complete its clearance of unresolved asylum cases either a Minister directly or by the Department on their following the completion of the Legacy Case behalf. programme. [64869] Deportation Damian Green: The UK Border Agency has Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the completed its review of all outstanding legacy cases. Home Department to which (a) countries and (b) There remain a number of cases that have been regions (i) foreign prisoners and (ii) illegal immigrants reviewed but remain to be concluded. These cases have are not returned; and for what reason in each case. been transferred to the Case Assurance Audit Unit (CAAU). It will also monitor the controlled archive [63851] and take forward any cases that should come to light. Damian Green: There is no country to which the UK would not return those with no right to stay in the UK. Asylum: EU Countries However situations may arise in relation to any country, where practical barriers temporarily prevent Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for the actual removals from taking place. Each asylum and Home Department pursuant to the answer of 30 June human rights claim is considered on its individual 2011, Official Report, column 893W, on asylum: EU merits in accordance with our international obligations countries, from which countries she expects foreign and taking full account of conditions in the country nationals to attempt to enter the EU illegally via the concerned as they impact on the individual. Those (a) Mediterranean coast and (b) land border with found to be in need of international protection are provided with it. Failed asylum seekers, illegal Turkey in 2011-12. [64325] immigrants and foreign national prisoners of all nationalities who have been found by the Home Office Damian Green: All north African countries, and the appeals process not to be in need of including Egypt, with a Mediterranean coast have international protection and have no legal basis of stay been used as staging posts for illegal travel to the EU. in the UK, are expected to return to their country of Libya and Tunisia in particular are currently the main origin and may have their removal enforced if they do source countries of foreign nationals attempting to not leave voluntarily. reach the EU. The majority of these foreign nationals target southern Italy, predominantly the island of Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for the Lampedusa, and Malta. Increases in attempts by illegal Home Department what criteria she uses to determine migrants to enter the EU via the sea have been seen whether a foreign national should be excluded or again this year following the Arab Spring uprisings. deported from the UK on the grounds that his or her Migrants departing from Libya are mostly from the presence is not conducive to the public good. [64705] countries within the horn of Africa, the sub-Saharan region, central Africa and lower numbers from Asia. Damian Green: Foreign nationals who are assessed to Those departing from Tunisia are almost exclusively be non-conducive to the public good are routinely, but Tunisians. not exclusively, excluded or deported on the grounds of national security, criminality, unacceptable behaviour, Migratory flows from Tunisia have decreased war crimes or international relations. recently as a consequence of the bilateral agreement reached between Italy and Tunisia, on 5 April 2011, Domestic Violence which has resulted in regular repatriations of Tunisian nationals and the strengthening of police surveillance Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the along the Tunisian coast. Home Department how many people were arrested for Following a decrease in illegal border crossings at a suspected offence under section 5 of the Domestic Turkey’s land border with Greece during the first Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004 between 2006-07 quarter of 2011, operational data from the European and 2009-10; and how many such people were charged Agency for the Management of Operational with that offence. [64340] Cooperation at the External Border of the Member States of the European Union (Frontex) indicate that Mrs May [holding answer 7 July 2011]: The this land border section is again facing an increase in information requested on arrests and subsequent detection numbers, mostly due to Afghan and charges is not available. Pakistani nationals trying to unlawfully cross the Information on arrests reported to the Home Office external borders. is not broken down below main offence group level. There is no link on record between these data and any Departmental Responsibilities subsequent outcome. Entry Clearances: Foreign Workers Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department on how many occasions a request Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the for a meeting by an hon. Member of each political Home Department how many applications were made party has been refused by (a) a Minister in her for a visa by non-EEA workers under tier 2 of the Department directly and (b) her Department on points based system in each region in each year since behalf of a Minister since May 2010. [64427] 2008. [65100] 275W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 276W

Damian Green [holding answer 11 July 2011]: The The report showed levels of potential non- number of applications made for a visa by non-EEA compliance defined as those students whose leave to workers under tier 2 of the points based system (PBS) remain had expired and for whom we could not find by region and in each year since 2008 is shown in the any record of them having left the country. following table. It should also be noted that tier 2 of The university sample was drawn from institutions the PBS was introduced on 27 November 2008. who were applying for highly trusted sponsor status and showed a non-compliance rate of 2%. Region 2008 2009 2010 For the other education sectors, the sample was Africa 32 2,180 2,309 drawn from institutions that had been subject to a Americas 46 10,172 11,978 roll-call investigation and non-compliance rates were: Euro-Med 17 3,634 4,718 Gulf 25 1,986 2,866 Percentage Pacific 50 8,687 10,828 South Asia 165 25,688 37,491 Publicly funded FE/HE providers 8 Total 335 52,347 70,190 Privately funded FE/HE providers 26 Notes: English language School 14 1. The data are based on management information. They are provisional and subject to change. Data from previous years are not available. Further 2. The figures include dependents. analysis of the data used to produce the published Entry Clearances: India report could be undertaken only at disproportionate cost. Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the British high commission Explosives in New Delhi will issue visit visas for Mr Kukdip Singh (Reference JLAC-260511-000127-1) Mrs Kamlesh Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the Kummari (Reference JLAC-260511-000127-2) Home Department how many people were (a) arrested Miss Kanwarpreet Kaw (Reference JLAC 260511- for and (b) charged with an offence under section 2 000127-3) Mr Rajandeep Singh (Reference JLAC- or 3 of the Explosive Substances Act 1883 between 260511-000127-4) for which applications were made on 2006-07 and 2009-10. [64258] 26 May 2011 to attend a wedding of a constituent of the Member for Ilford South to be held on 10 July Mrs May [holding answer 7 July 2011]: Information 2011. [65271] on arrests held by the Home Office is not broken down below main offence group level. Damian Green [holding answer 11 July 2011]: However, a separate collection from the Association In order to safeguard an individual’s personal of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) provides information information and comply with the Data Protection on suspects charged as a result of terrorist related Act 1998, the UK Border Agency is unable to comment arrests, under Section 3 of the Explosive Substances on individual cases. The UK Border Agency aims to Act 1883. These are published in table 1.3b of the process each visa application within the agreed Home Office Statistical Bulletin, ‘Operation of police customer service standards but it cannot guarantee that powers under the Terrorism Act 2000 and subsequent all visa applications will be completed within this time. legislation: arrests, outcomes and stops and searches’. The unique circumstances of each individual case may Available data on charges from 2006-07 to 2009-10 result in longer decision times. For non-settlement visas under Section 3 of the Explosive Substances Act 1883 the UK Border Agency aims to complete 90% of are provided in the table. applications within three weeks, 98% within six weeks and 100% within 12 weeks. Information is not separately available on charges for Section 2 of the offence. Entry Clearances: Overseas Students Arrests data collected for the Terrorism bulletin are not recorded in a way that shows the suspected offences at the time of the arrest, therefore data on arrests are Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for the not available. Home Department what assessment she has made of Number of terrorism related suspects charged under Section 3 of the Explosive the level of compliance with rules relating to student Substances Act1883. Great Britain 2006-07 to 2009-101 visas by (a) independent schools, (b) universities and Financial year Number of persons charged (c) sixth form colleges in each of the last three years. [R] [62964] 2006-07 3 2007-08 2 Damian Green: The Home Office published a report 2008-09 — on 7 December 2010 containing an analysis of the 2009-10 4 compliance rates for samples of 12,656 university 1 Principal offence basis students and 5,648 students in other education sectors, drawn from Confirmations of Acceptance of Study Human Trafficking issued between April 2009 and August 2010. This report is available from the Home Office website, at: Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- the Home Department what work her Department is statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ undertaking with police forces to implement a victim- occ90/?view=Standard&publD=864594 centred approach to trafficking. [65222] 277W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 278W

Damian Green: We are raising awareness and Mr Darling: To ask the Secretary of State for the providing training to the police to help them deal with Home Department when the chief executive of victims of trafficking. the Identity and Passport Service plans to reply to the Each of the UK’s 55 police forces has a senior letters from the right hon. Member for Edinburgh investigator trained in dealing with incidents of human South West of (a) 25 February, (b) 20 April, (c) 20 trafficking. An awareness-raising DVD has also been May and (d) 17 June 2011. [65200] provided to all police forces and Stop the Traffik cards have been issued to 10,000 front line neighbourhood Damian Green [holding answer 11 July 2011]: The police officers. chief executive of the Identity and Passport Service The United Kingdom Human Trafficking Centre wrote to the right hon. Member on 7 July 2011. (UKHTC) plays a key role in embedding human trafficking into core policing through the delivery of Immigration: Crime training and tactical advice available to all police officers, including access to a 24/7 helpline. Mr Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home On 1 June 2011 the Metropolitan Police Service Department pursuant to the answer of 16 June 2011, launched a free victim support line to encourage men Official Report, columns 948-9W, on immigration: and women who have been trafficked into the UK to crime, how many emails she estimates were not report the crime to the police. delivered because of server errors in each such week. [64699] Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what discussions she has had Damian Green: The UK Border Agency has not with her European counterparts on co-operation in (a) produced any estimates of the number of emails to the tackling the causes of human trafficking and (b) public inquiries mailbox that it did not receive. In the preventing human trafficking within the EU. [65246] period 14 June 2010 to 12 June 2011 the mailbox was unable to accept emails on four occasions. The UK Damian Green: The Government work closely with Border Agency website provides a telephone number their European partners on human trafficking matters for Crimestoppers alongside the email address for its through the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) public inquiries mailbox as an alternative method for liaison officer network, and the European liaison submitting allegations of immigration crime. officers based in the UK and at Europol. The United Kingdom Human Trafficking Centre Immigration: EU Action (UKHTC) is also engaged in up-stream prevention work with EU partners and chairs the EU-wide Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Human Trafficking Strategy Group. Home Department whether she plans to review In June 2011 the Secretary of State for the Home legislation which enables the European Court of Department, the right hon. Member for Maidenhead Human Rights to intervene in immigration cases. (Mrs May), met her French counterpart, Claude [65394] Gueant, to discuss their continued commitment to tackling organised immigration crime, including Damian Green: While everyone has a right to respect human trafficking. In June 2011 I addressed the for their private and family life under article 8 of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe European convention on human rights, it is not an conference on trafficking for labour exploitation. absolute right, and it is legitimate to interfere with that right where it is in the public interest to do so. This Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for includes in particular where it is necessary to protect the Home Department when she plans to publish her the public and to maintain our immigration controls. policy paper on trafficking. [65274] The Government will be consulting in due course on family migration, and will use that consultation to Damian Green: The Government intend to publish discuss the operation of article 8 and immigration their strategy on human trafficking prior to the control. In light of the consultation, we will bring summer recess. forward proposals which strike a proper balance Identity and Passport Service: Correspondence between the individual’s right to respect for family life and the broader public interest, and we will lay immigration rules before Parliament which reflect this. Mr Darling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the target time is for In addition, the Government have established a responding to letters from hon. Members to the Commission to investigate the creation of a UK Bill of Identity and Passport Service; and if she will make a Rights. The Commission will look at the way rights are protected in the UK and we expect it to explore a wide statement. [65199] range of different views as it carries out its work. Damian Green [holding answer 11 July 2011]: The Identity and Passport Service (IPS) has a service level Immigration: Proof of Identity agreement to respond to letters from Members of Parliament within 10 working days. Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for For 2010, IPS received 1,014 letters from Members the Home Department whether she plans to allow a of Parliament and responded to 87% of them within national ID card of an EU member state as a proof of the 10-day target. identity for the Life in the UK test. [65194] 279W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 280W

Damian Green [holding answer 11 July 2011]: Nick Herbert: The Government are determined to Foreign identity cards are not currently accepted as take advantage of the economies of scale that 43 forces evidence of identity for taking the Life in the UK test. can enjoy if they work together on procurement. The This is largely because of the large number and variety High Level Working Group on Police Value for Money of foreign documents that University for Industry (Ufi) has agreed a strategy for police value for money. Key staff would need to be familiar with in order to ensure elements of that strategy are to drive greater standardisation effective verification. The vast majority of those taking and convergence among forces in the systems and services the Life in the UK test are able to provide another valid they use and a national approach to procurement across form of identity. the police service. The UK Border Agency will consider whether the The National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) list of acceptable evidence could be reviewed. However, at present carries out some procurement functions on any proposed change in practice would need to be behalf of the police service. The non-ICT procurement balanced against the resource implications of functions of the NPIA will be transferred to the Home retraining and updating Ufi centre staff. Office Commercial Directorate. On 4 July 2011, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right National Crime Agency: Finance hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), announced that the Government will set up a new Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the police-led ICT company. The company will deliver greater Home Department what the aggregate total is of value for money to the police service through exploitation the comprehensive spending review settlement for the of economies of scale, stronger ICT procurement and precursors of the National Crime Agency and the costs contract negotiation, and effective contract management. of the fully funded functions it is agreed should migrate The company will also drive greater standardisation into that agency for its first year of operation. [65360] and convergence in police ICT by taking responsibility for managing information systems strategy. Mrs May [holding answer 11 July 2011]: I refer the right hon. Member to the answer I gave on 5 July 2011, Raed Salah Official Report, column 1135W. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Non-domestic Rates Home Department when she expects to announce the outcome of her investigation into the entry of Raed Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the Salah into the UK. [64259] Home Department if she will estimate the revenue raised in Wales by the Security Industry Authority Damian Green [holding answer 7 July 2011]: Her since 20 March 2006; and what proportion of such Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary has been asked revenue that has been spent on Wales. [65576] to investigate the circumstances of Raed Salah’s entry to the United Kingdom on 25 June. On receipt of that Lynne Featherstone: The information is not available. report I will set out my plans to announce the outcome. The Security Industry Authority (SIA) does not raise revenue in Wales or anywhere else in the UK. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the The SIA issues licences to individuals who engage in Home Department what steps officials in her any licensable conduct so defined under schedule 2 of Department took on being notified of the presence of the Private Security Industry Act 2001. Individuals Raed Salah in the UK. [64341] who are licensed by the SIA pay a fee for their personal licence. The SIA licence application fee pays for all the Damian Green [holding answer 7 July 2011]: The costs of the SIA across the UK. Government do not routinely comment on individual exclusion cases but in this instance the Secretary of Police: Accountability State for the Home Department has considered it is important to do so and he had put the details of his case Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the into the public domain. Raed Salah was excluded from Home Department what (a) organisations and (b) the UK on 23 June as a result of numerous statements local authorities submitted responses in support of the he had made, details of which were obtained from a proposals in her Department’s consultation on police variety of sources across the Government. As an Israeli and crime commissioners. [65201] national Mr Salah does not require a visa and he managed to enter the UK. He was on the Home Office Mrs May [holding answer 11 July 2011]: The watch list and should have been refused entry as a result “Policing in the 21st century: reconnecting police and of the Secretary of State’s exclusion decision. Her Majesty’s the people summary of consultation responses and Inspector of Constabulary is investigating how this next steps” document published in 2010 listed all happened now. Mr Salah has been detained and the UK respondents. A copy is in the Library of the House. Border Agency is making arrangements to remove him. Police: Procurement Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) on what grounds her Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Department issued an exclusion order against Sheikh Home Department which body will be responsible for Raed Salah; [65761] implementing her proposals to bring together the (2) when her Department notified the UK Border different police procurement strategies across the Agency of the exclusion order served on Sheikh Raed country and make them more effective. [63708] Salah; [65762] 281W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 282W

(3) when and where her Department served the Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 11 July 2011]: exclusion order on Sheikh Raed Salah; [65763] Data for the number of rapes recorded by the police in (4) when her Department was informed of Sheikh each police force area in England and Wales are provided Raed Salah’s presence in the UK; [65764] in Table A. The latest period for which figures are available is the year ending December 2010. Data for (5) what contact her Department had with officials the 12 months to March 2011 will be published on at the UK Border Agency regarding Sheikh Raed 14 July 2011 in “Crime in England and Wales 2010/11”. Salah (a) before and (b) after his arrest. [65806] The number of rape offences shown in the table need Damian Green: I refer the hon. Member to the reply to be interpreted with caution. In the 24 month period given on 6 July 2011, Official Report, column 1221W. for which data are provided, it is known that police forces took additional steps to improve their recording of sexual offences, including rape. This may be reflected Rape in the increases in rape offences seen in the data. Extra guidance for the recording of sexual offences was formally Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for incorporated into the Home Office Counting Rules the Home Department how many rapes were reported from 1 April 2010. However, some forces were following in each police area in the most recent 12 month period the new guidance prior to this date, reflecting good for which figures are available; and how many were practice that the Association of Chief Police Officers reported in the 12 month period immediately previous. had been promoting within forces before this formal [64416] implementation.

Table A: Rape offences recorded by the police, by police force area, in England and Wales1, 2 12 months to December each year Rape of a female Rape of a male Total rape Force name 2009 2010 2009 2010 2009 2010

Avon and Somerset 321 316 38 24 359 340 Bedfordshire 171 104 7 8 178 112 British Transport Police 19 9 0 1 19 10 Cambridgeshire 169 210 15 21 184 231 Cheshire 130 168 16 14 146 182 Cleveland 133 161 13 24 146 185 Cumbria 89 118 7 12 96 130 Derbyshire 275 302 13 23 288 325 Devon and Cornwall 415 499 39 43 454 542 Dorset 195 215 22 14 217 229 Durham 112 133 9 15 121 148 Dyfed-Powys 101 102 16 17 117 119 Essex 342 435 23 37 365 472 Gloucestershire 120 150 13 5 133 155 Greater Manchester 794 720 77 79 871 799 Gwent 162 167 10 19 172 186 Hampshire 535 531 43 47 578 578 Hertfordshire 138 195 9 14 147 209 Humberside 215 348 28 37 243 385 Kent 289 337 33 25 322 362 Lancashire 230 343 20 36 250 379 Leicestershire 235 218 22 25 257 243 Lincolnshire 150 186 7 16 157 202 London, City of 261137 Merseyside 265 309 21 39 286 348 Metropolitan police 2,430 3,025 170 190 2,600 3,215 Norfolk 159 181 9 13 168 194 North Wales 172 152 18 12 190 164 North Yorkshire 139 165 9 14 148 179 Northamptonshire 156 227 7 22 163 249 Northumbria 274 300 38 37 312 337 Nottinghamshire 319 270 31 26 350 296 South Wales 217 216 21 23 238 239 South Yorkshire 210 294 17 19 227 313 Staffordshire 249 226 16 29 265 255 Suffolk 209 213 20 15 229 228 Surrey 194 188 10 18 204 206 Sussex 367 429 30 36 397 465 Thames Valley 495 488 50 36 545 524 Warwickshire 103 112 13 11 116 123 West Mercia 300 253 13 37 313 290 283W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 284W

Table A: Rape offences recorded by the police, by police force area, in England and Wales1, 2 12 months to December each year Rape of a female Rape of a male Total rape Force name 2009 2010 2009 2010 2009 2010

West Midlands 783 783 60 64 843 847 West Yorkshire 616 532 57 47 673 579 Wiltshire 130 160 10 10 140 170 Grand total 13,129 14,496 1,101 1,255 14,230 15,751 1 Includes British Transport police. 2 The number of rape offences shown in the table need to be interpreted with caution. In the 24 month period for which data are provided, it is known that police forces took additional steps to improve their recording of sexual offences, including rape. This may be reflected in the increases in rape offences seen in the data. Extra guidance for the recording of sexual offences was formally incorporated into the Home Office Counting Rules from 1 April 2010. However, some forces were following the new guidance prior to this date, reflecting good practice that the Association of Chief Police Officers had been promoting within forces before this formal implementation.

Sexual Offences (3) if he will assess the effects of credit availability on the borrowing of low-income households; and if he Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the will make a statement; [65504] Home Department how many people were (a) arrested (3) what steps he is taking to protect consumers from for and (b) charged with an offence under sections 57 excessive high cost lending; and if he will make a to 59 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 between 2006-07 statement. [65503] and 2009-10. [64257] Mr Hoban: The Government are committed to reforming Mrs May [holding answer 7 July 2011]: The information the UK’s financial services regulation, curbing unsustainable requested on arrests and subsequent charges is not lending and strengthening consumer protections, available. particularly for the most vulnerable and believes that Information on arrests reported to the Home Office consumers should have access to an appropriate range is not broken down below main offence group level. of financial services and products. There is no link on record between these data and any subsequent outcome. In October 2010 we announced the Consumer Credit and Personal Insolvency Review and launched a Call for Evidence. It took an end-to-end view of consumer credit and personal insolvency; from the decision to TREASURY borrow through to how we support people in difficulty and help them to resolve their debts. Child Care Tax Credit The Government will respond to the Call for Evidence Ms Buck: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer shortly. how many people have (a) claimed the childcare Departmental Dismissal element of working tax credit and (b) claimed more than £120 per week under the childcare element of Stephen Barclay: To ask the Chancellor of the working tax credit in each of the last three years. Exchequer how many officials in his Departments were [64639] dismissed for under-performance as a result of the Mr Gauke: The following table shows the total number procedures arising from his Departments’ staff of people claiming the child care element of working appraisal system in each of the last three years. [64679] tax credit, and the number reporting child care costs in excess of £120 per week, in April of 2009, 2010 and Justine Greening: All staff in HM Treasury have 2011. annual performance reviews. Unsatisfactory performance is dealt with under the Number of families Managing Capability Policy. Total number of reporting child care families claiming child costs greater than £120 In the period requested fewer than five civil servants care element per week were dismissed under this policy. It is the Department’s policy not to release further information about staff April 2009 470,400 142,400 numbers fewer than five where to do so could lead to April 2010 488,800 150,500 the identification of protected personal data. April 2011 493,000 146,600 Economic Policy This information is also available in the HMRC snapshot publication “Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics” for each year. These can be found at: Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc- with what frequency he meets the Deputy Prime quarterly-stats.htm Minister to discuss (a) macroeconomic and (b) financial regulation policy. [64738] Credit: Interest Rates Justine Greening: Treasury Ministers hold regular Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the discussions with ministerial colleagues on a wide range Exchequer (1) what steps his Department is taking to of issues. As was the case with previous Administrations, tackle unscrupulous money lending; and if he will it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of make a statement; [65505] all such discussions. 285W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 286W

Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation Measures have been published in the Localism Bill to reform the housing revenue account finance regime and Michael Fallon: To ask the Chancellor of the replace Housing Revenue Account Subsidy with a system Exchequer what steps he is taking to prioritise of self-financing for local housing authorities. payments of compensation for older and retired Equitable Life policy holders. [65581] Housing: Wales Mr Hoban: As set out in the Equitable Life Payment Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the Scheme Design document published on 16 May, the Exchequer what representations he has received from Government have accepted the recommendation of the Welsh Government Ministers on the impact of the Independent Commission on Equitable Life payments housing revenue account in Wales. [64973] to prioritise payments to the oldest policyholders, where Justine Greening: The Treasury has been in discussion it is possible and practicable to do so. with the Welsh Government on the housing revenue Excise Duties: Fuels account subsidy system and proposals for reform. Income Tax Jim Shannon: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his policy is on a fuel duty stabiliser Jim Shannon: To ask the Chancellor of the for Northern Ireland. [65166] Exchequer whether he has considered measures to Justine Greening: Budget 2011 abolished the fuel exempt from income tax those earning below £10,000 duty escalator and replaced it with a fair fuel stabiliser. per annum. [65141] Fuel duty across the UK will increase by inflation only, Mr Gauke: The June 2010 Budget announced a £1,000 when oil prices are high. If the oil price falls below a set increase in the income tax personal allowance for those trigger price on a sustained basis duty will increase by aged under 65, taking it from £6,475 in 2010-11 to RPI plus 1p per litre. The Government are informally £7,475 in 2011-12. consulting before setting the level and mechanism for the trigger. A further £630 increase in the personal allowance was announced in Budget 2011, taking it to £8,105 in Financial Services: Education 2012-13. Together these increases will benefit 25 million individuals, and take 1.1 million low income individuals Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the out of tax from April 2012. Exchequer what steps he is taking to promote financial This is part of the Government’s long-term objective literacy education for those who (a) are heavily in debt to increase the personal allowance to £10,000, with real and (b) are at risk of being heavily in debt; and if he terms steps in that direction every year. will make a statement. [65506] Job Creation: Wales Mr Hoban: The Money Advice Service has been set up by Government to promote understanding of the Owen Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer financial system and raise levels of financial capability what assessment he has made of the recommendation across the UK. Its services offer free and impartial in the report by Sheffield Hallam university, for a information and advice on money matters and are policy of publicly-funded job creation in Wales. [65465] available to all online, by telephone and face-to-face. The Money Advice Service has also launched a financial Danny Alexander: The Chancellor has made no health check which aims to help people proactively assessment of the recommendations in the report for manage their money on a regular basis and make the Wales. The majority of economic levers are devolved most of what they have got. The Money Advice Service therefore many of the proposals are a matter for the aims to encourage people to better manage their money Welsh Government. and so prevent them getting into unmanageable levels Minimum Wage of debt. Housing Ms Buck: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the average time taken was to consider a complaint of payment of wages below the rate of the Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the national minimum wage in the HM Revenue and Exchequer how much has been returned to the Customs compliance team in (a) Aberdeen, (b) Exchequer in payments via the housing revenue Ashton, (c) Belfast, (d) Birmingham, (e) Cambridge, account subsidy scheme by each local authority in (f) Cardiff, (g) Kilbride, (h) Exeter, (i) Maidstone, England in each financial year since 1997. [64974] (j) Teesside, (k) Portsmouth, (l) Romford, (m) Andrew Stunell: I have been asked to reply. Sheffield, (n) Shipley, (o) Wigan and (p) Leicester in the latest period for which figures are available. [63752] Housing revenue account subsidy surpluses have only been paid to the Exchequer since 2004, when the housing Mr Gauke: HMRC records the average elapsed time revenue account subsidy system was reformed to remove in working days from the date of registration of a the rent rebate element, which is now separately accounted complaint from a worker about non-payment of minimum for in local authorities’ general funds. wage to the date of closure of a case. The following A table showing individual councils’ housing revenue table shows the average elapsed time, in working days, account subsidy totals for each year since 2004 has been for complaint cases closed by the teams specified for the placed in the Library of the House. period April 2011 to the end of June 2011. 287W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 288W

resulted in the identification of arrears of wages as a Team Average elapsed time (working days) result of non-payment of the NMW. Belfast 121.33 HMRC does not keep separate statistics on the amount Birmingham 87.22 of arrears paid or not paid to workers. Cambridge 144.89 Cardiff 132.74 Ms Buck: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exeter 171.92 how many national minimum wage compliance officers Leicester 79.50 were employed in HM Revenue and Customs Maidstone 93.44 compliance teams in (a) Aberdeen, (b) Ashton, (c) Portsmouth 198.60 Belfast, (d) Birmingham, (e) Cambridge, (f) Cardiff, Romford 95.00 (g) Kilbride, (h) Exeter, (i) Maidstone, (j) Teesside, Scotland (Aberdeen and East Kilbride) 154.33 (k) Portsmouth, (l) Romford, (m) Sheffield, (n) Sheffield 97.13 Shipley, (o) Wigan and (p) Leicester in (i) 2008-09, (ii) Shipley 146.50 2009-10 and (iii) 2010-11; and how many such staff he Stockport (Ashton) 162.38 expects to be in each such team in (A) 2012 and (B) Teesside 148.59 2013. [63758] Wigan 117.50 Mr Gauke: The number of compliance staff requested, Ms Buck: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer including a manager and support officer in each team, how many complaints obtained from (a) workers, (b) is in the following table: third parties and (c) risk profiling or targeted enforcement action on the part of HM Revenue and Team 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Customs (HMRC) were received by HMRC’s National Belfast 8 7 7 Minimum Wage Central Information Unit in the latest Birmingham 8 7 8 period for which figures are available; and what Cambridge 8 8 7 proportion of those cases were referred on to HMRC Cardiff 8 8 9 compliance teams. [63753] Colchester n/a 5 4 Exeter 8 9 8 Mr Gauke: Since April 2011, HMRC categorises Leicester 7 7 5 complaints as those received from workers. HMRC will Maidstone 7 7 7 investigate all complaints received and in the Oxford 4 6 6 period April to June 2011, 406 complaints from workers Portsmouth 6 6 6 were received and referred to compliance teams for Romford 9 9 9 investigation. Scotland (Aberdeen and 11 11 11 Information provided to HMRC from third parties East Kilbride) is analysed using risk indicators and employers with Sheffield 7 6 6 the highest risk are referred for compliance action. Shipley 8 6 6 In the period April to June 2011, 69 third party referrals Stockport (Ashton) 8 7 7 were received from the Pay and Work Rights Helpline, Teesside 10 9 9 of which 48 were taken forward for compliance action. Wigan 8 7 7 Risk profiling or targeted enforcement cases are HMRC is currently undertaking internal recruitment generated within HMRC and consequently all cases to a number of the NMW compliance teams. Current which are generated, which meet the specific criteria indications are that HMRC will continue to receive being used, will be referred for compliance action. In funding from the Department for Business that will see the period from April to June 2011, 253 such cases were staffing levels maintained in 2012 and 2013. referred to compliance teams.

Ms Buck: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer National Insurance Contributions how many notice of underpayment orders were issued by HM Revenue and Customs national minimum wage Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the compliance teams in the latest period for which figures Exchequer if he will estimate the cost to the public are available. [63754] purse of extending the national insurance holiday scheme to enable existing micro businesses who employ Mr Gauke: HMRC minimum wage compliance teams one additional member of staff to remain eligible. issued 1,128 notices of underpayments during the period [62985] 1 April 2010 and 31 March 2011. Mr Gauke: A reliable estimate of the potential cost of Ms Buck: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer extending the national insurance contributions (NICs) what proportion of complaints to his Department on holiday to existing micro businesses who employ one payment of wages below the national minimum wage additional member of staff is not available due to data resulted in a repayment of arrears to the employee in limitations. the latest period for which figures are available. [63755] The Government have considered the case for extending the NICs holiday to all existing micro businesses but Mr Gauke: For the period from 1 April 2011 to believes the best use of public funds at this time is to 30 June 2011, 45% of complaints from workers about keep the NICs holiday as a targeted scheme for those the non-payment of national minimum wage (NMW) areas in most need of employment support. 289W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 290W

Non-domestic Rates: Income Tax Avoidance

Alex Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Hanson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer whether additional income from proposed what analysis by (a) age, (b) family status and (c) changes to business rates will be retained by local income group he has undertaken of customers of HM authorities. [64855] Revenue and Customs who are subject to compliance Robert Neill: I have been asked to reply. or enforcement activity. [61823] The Deputy Prime Minister confirmed on 29 June Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) have that the Government would introduce proposals to not undertaken any such analysis based on family status. enable local authorities to retain business rates. We will However, I can confirm that they have carried out publish proposals shortly for consultation. analysis of compliance enquiries by age and income Public Expenditure group for customers who are income tax self-assessment taxpayers. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Chancellor of the The analysis by age looked at the difference in compliance Exchequer what controls are in place in respect of rates between all taxpayers and older people and was payments by Government bodies to a recipient carried out for a NAO report looking at how HMRC organisation, company, individual or other entity deals with the tax obligations of older people. which is not within the jurisdiction of UK regulatory The relevant section of the report will be deposited in authorities and does not have up-to-date audited the House Library. The analysis by income looked at accounts in the relevant jurisdiction. [65745] the difference in compliance rates between taxpayers of lower and higher incomes and was carried out as part of Danny Alexander: Payments by Government an internal study. organisations, whether by grant, grant in aid or contractual, will be governed by an agreed framework document, grant letter or contract. VAT: Charities In addition, Accounting Officers have a personal responsibility to ensure regularity, propriety and value Jim Shannon: To ask the Chancellor of the for money for public expenditure, including the management Exchequer if he will take steps to exempt service of opportunity and risk, and that grant recipients are charities from payment of VAT on expenditure on eligible for, and use the funding for the purposes intended. capital build projects. [65142] In particular, procurement guidance requires Government organisations to establish the propriety of candidate Mr Gauke: The construction of buildings intended to suppliers (i.e. excluding those convicted of fraud, theft, be used by charities either solely for non-business purposes fraudulent trading etc.), and to assess suppliers to confirm or solely for specific residential purposes is zero-rated their capacity to carry out what the purchaser requires for VAT, which means no VAT is payable. and deliver value for money. I am not able to extend that relief to other capital build projects run by charities. Revenue and Customs: Correspondence This is because long-standing formal agreements with our European partners prevent us from extending the Mr Brine: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer scope of our existing zero rates or from introducing new what the average time taken by HM Revenue and zero rates. So buildings intended to be used by charities Customs and its predecessor to (a) respond to phone for purposes other than those described above will calls and (b) take the actions required as a result of continue to attract VAT. receiving such calls was in (i) each of the last five years and (ii) the last month of each of the last five tax years. [53171] VAT: Tax Rates and Bands

Mr Gauke: For part (a) the information for the Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Chancellor of the whole of the Department is not held centrally. However Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effects HMRC have been able to provide the average time to of the change in the standard rate of value added tax respond to phone calls made to its network of centrally on levels on consumer spending. [65435] managed contact centres (which handle the majority of unsolicited telephone contact to the Department) for Mr Gauke: The answer to this question falls within each of the last five years. the responsibilities of the Office for Budget Responsibility (a) Average time taken to respond to phone calls1 (OBR), and I have asked the OBR to reply. (m:ss) Letter from Robert Chote, dated 8 July 2011: Year March As Chair of the Budget Responsibility Committee of the 2010-11 4:14 3:28 Office for Budget Responsibility I have been asked to reply to 2009-10 1:35 2:37 your recent question. 2008-09 1:57 0:57 The OBR has not produced an estimate of the effect of the 2007-08 1:26 1:58 change in the standard rate of VAT from 17.5 per cent to 20 per 2006-07 1:04 0:36 cent in January 2011 on levels of consumer spending. 1 (a) “Average speed to answer.” The time taken from when a customer selects The OBR’s March forecast incorporated the estimated impact an option from the call steering menu to when the call is connected to an of policy measures announced at or before the June Budget, adviser. including the increase in the-standard rate of VAT from 17.5 per Part (b)—the information is not held. cent to 20 per cent that took effect from 4 January 2011. 291W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 292W

The OBR applied a range of fiscal multipliers to help inform Charles Hendry: The potential for CCS regional clusters its judgement on the impact of VAT on aggregate demand in the was considered in a study commissioned by this economy. These multipliers are set out in Table C8 of the interim Department, ‘A study to explore the potential for CCS OBR’s June Budget document. The interim OBR’s June 2010 business clusters in the UK’ (Technopolis and GHK Budget forecast and the OBR’s November and March forecasts assumed that the increase in the standard rate of VAT from 2010, URN I0D/511), available at: 17.5 per cent to 20 per cent would reduce the level of real GDP in http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/what%20we%20do/ 2011/12 by around 0.3 per cent. uk%20energy%20supply/energy%20mix/ carbon%20capture%20and%20storage/ Welsh Assembly Government: Correspondence 1_20100317095408_e_@@_ccsbusinessclusters.pdf Support will be available under the CCS Demonstration Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the Programme for projects that share regional infrastructure, Exchequer if he will publish all correspondence as long as those projects meet the primary objectives of between his Department and Welsh Government the programme. Ministers on the Housing Revenue Account and the Major Repairs Allowance. [64972] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer Justine Greening: It is important that UK and Welsh of 4 July 2011, Official Report, column 1064W, on Ministers are able to discuss policy development and carbon sequestration, whether he plans to await the operational matters in confidence and therefore National Environment Research Council award correspondence between Ministers of the UK Government decisions before making a decision on further carbon and the devolved Administrations is private. capture and storage projects. [65455]

Charles Hendry: Decisions on the Government’s CCS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Demonstration Programme are made separately from NERC award decisions. Access to Work Programme

Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Regulation Energy and Climate Change how many disabled people are being supported in employment in his Department Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for under its access to work programme. [65041] Energy and Climate Change how many regulations that impose costs on businesses his Department has (a) Gregory Barker: In common with all Government introduced and (b) removed since 1 September 2010; Departments, DECC does not receive any funding to what the net effect on the costs on businesses of such support staff from Access to Work. introductions and removals was; and what regulations We currently have 53 disabled people who have been have been excluded from the one-in one-out system assessed by Access to Work in order to determine the because they address (i) emergencies and (ii) systemic level of reasonable adjustment in terms of equipment financial risks since 1 September 2010. [65334] required. In addition, DECC have a further 17 people who have had reasonable adjustments supplied on the Gregory Barker: The one-in, one-out regulatory basis of internal health and safety or occupational management system, although announced in September, health assessments. did not come into force until January 2011. Details of We have introduced a programme of assessments for regulatory measures introduced or removed in the first display screen equipment and this is approximately 60% half of 2011 can be found in the Statement of New complete. We anticipate the number of staff with disabilities Regulation in the Library of the House. who DECC support to rise as this programme progresses The following statutory instruments imposing costs and identifies more staff who require support. and benefits on business have come into force since 1 September 2010, including measures classed as tax Carbon Sequestration and EU-derived legislation: The Warm Home Discount (Reconciliation) Regulations Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State 2011 for Energy and Climate Change whether he expects the first carbon capture and storage demonstration project Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: to begin in 2016. [64931] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1414/pdfs/ uksiem_20111414_en.pdf Charles Hendry: Subject to the successful The Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Termination of Licences) conclusion of negotiations with the Scottish Power Regulations 2011 consortium, we expect the first Carbon Capture and Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: Storage demonstration project to complete construction http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1483/pdfs/ in 2014-15, and is expected to be operational as soon as uksiem_20111483_en.pdf possible thereafter. The Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Nitrous Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Oxide) Regulations 2011 for Energy and Climate Change what work he has Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: undertaken on the carbon capture and storage http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1506/pdfs/ demonstration project regional clusters. [65446] uksiem_20111506_en.pdf 293W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 294W

The Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme was of his Department’s investment in (a) alternative (Amendment) (Fees) and National Emissions Inventory energy and (b) clean technology in each of the last five Regulations 2011 financial years. [65656] Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/727/pdfs/ Charles Hendry: The Department was created in 2008 uksiem_20110727_en.pdf and holds records for spending from 2008-09 onwards. The Nuclear Decommissioning and Waste Handling (Finance (a) Direct investment in alternative energy (primarily and Fees) Regulations 2011 covering including solar, wind, marine, hydro, biomass, Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: and geothermal energy) has been as follows: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/134/pdfs/ uksiem_20110134_en.pdf £ million The Warm Home Discount Regulations 2011 2008-09 91.3 Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: 2009-10 128.3 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1033/pdfs/ 2010-11 139.0 uksiem_20111033_en.pdf (b) Direct investment in clean technology (defined as The Renewables Obligation (Amendment) Order 2011 Carbon Capture and Storage only and excluding spending Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: on alternative energy included above) has been as follows: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/984/pdfs/ uksiem_20110984_en.pdf £ million The Aviation Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme 2008-09 8.0 (Amendment) Regulations 2011 2009-10 15.0 Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: 2010-11 57.1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/765/pdfs/ uksiem_20110765_en.pdf Green Economy Roadmap The Gas (Exemptions) Order 2011 Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/232/pdfs/ Energy and Climate Change when he plans to publish uksiem_20110232_en.pdf the Green Economy Roadmap. [65653] The Electricity (Guarantees of Origin of Electricity Produced from Renewable Energy Sources) (Amendment) Gregory Barker: I refer the hon. Member to the Regulations 2010 answer I gave on 11 July 2011, Official Report, column Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: 153W, to the hon. Member for Hackney South and http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2715/pdfs/ Shoreditch (Meg Hillier). uksiem_20102715_en.pdf The Nuclear Decommissioning and Waste Handling Natural Gas (Designated Technical Matters) Order 2010 Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2850/pdfs/ for Energy and Climate Change what recent uksiem_20102850_en.pdf discussions he has had with representatives of the The Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Licensing etc.) Regulations energy industry on the future of the UK gas 2010 infrastructure network. [65448] Costs are detailed in the impact assessment, available at: Charles Hendry: Details of meetings between DECC http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2221/pdfs/ uksiem_20102221_en.pdf Ministers and external organisations are published quarterly on the DECC website. No DECC regulations have been removed since 1 September 2010. However, DECC remains committed DECC Ministers have had no recent discussions with to simplifying the statute book and reducing the the energy industry on the future of the UK gas burden of regulation on business where possible. infrastructure network; however, DECC officials have Internal reviews of our regulatory stock and regular discussions with stakeholders on gas network engagement with our stakeholders have identified a issues. number of potential repeals and simplifications to date, with the exact process for repealing these currently Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State being explored. We will continue our efforts to identify for Energy and Climate Change whether he has made opportunities to eliminate any unnecessary burden on an assessment of the potential effects on the energy businesses this year through full engagement with the market of an increased supply of gas from ‘Red Tape Challenge’. unconventional sources. [65456] No regulations have so far been excluded from the Charles Hendry: Last year DECC contacted a number one-in one-out system because they address emergencies of academic institutions, NGOs and private businesses and systemic financial risks. to request evidence to help inform the Department’s Energy: Finance views on the prospects for global unconventional gas production. The responses are available at: Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/ Energy and Climate Change what the monetary value int_energy/gas_markets/gas_markets.aspx 295W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 296W

New supplies of gas, whether from conventional or The National Nuclear Laboratory (NNL) undertook unconventional sources are to be welcomed, as helping a recent independent assessment, in which it assessed a to underpin the open, liquid and competitive market number of claims made by proponents of thorium fuel. from which all gas consumers benefit. The report can was published on the NNL’s website: Natural Gas: Housing www.nnl.co.uk/positionpapers The conclusion was that, while the science is reasonably Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State sound, developing reactors based on a thorium fuel for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he cycle would carry major technological and commercial has made of the future role of natural gas in domestic risks. The resources required to develop these technologies properties. [65447] to the point at which they might be deployed successfully at a commercial scale are also very significant. Charles Hendry: DECC frequently considers the future To date, both in the UK and elsewhere in the world, role of natural gas in the context of its goals to maintain this has prevented private industry and government energy security and reduce emissions. Analysis by the from investing significantly in the development of the Committee on Climate Change in the Fourth Carbon technology. No thorium reactor design has been Budget report suggests that natural gas will continue to implemented beyond relatively small, experimental systems, play a significant role in the UK’s household energy while many either exist only on paper or have only had supply in coming decades. DECC will be responding to specific subsystems demonstrated. As an indicator of the Committee’s report in the autumn. the challenge of taking this technology further, the Nuclear Power Stations: Decommissioning Chinese Academy of Sciences estimates a development period of at least 20 years will be required before a Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State demonstration thorium molten salt breeder reactor might for Energy and Climate Change what recent be available. discussions he has had with devolved Administrations While thorium does not appear to have a part to play on the decommissioning of nuclear power stations. in the UK’s near to mid-term energy market, we do [65445] maintain an interest in its development. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Charles Hendry: The Secretary of State for Energy Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), has asked the and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the Member NNL to look further into the wider benefits of next for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), maintains close links with generation reactor designs and to compare the use of the devolved Administrations on a range of energy thorium and uranium fuels in them. We are expecting related issues. Officials are in regular contact in relation the findings to be available by the end of the summer. to the decommissioning of nuclear sites and are working closely with the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA) and the Shareholder Executive to ensure the Wind Power: Fisheries effective delivery of the NDA strategy, which was approved in April 2011. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Oil: Arctic Energy and Climate Change if he will take steps to co-ordinate contacts on offshore wind energy projects Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to for Energy and Climate Change whether he has had address potential concerns from fishing and other any discussions with his counterparts from (a) marine sectors. [65164] Norway, (b) Russia, (c) Canada, (d) the USA , (e) EU member states and (f) other nations on the Charles Hendry: Potential concerns from the fishing suitability of existing oilfield equipment for the drilling sector are addressed at a strategic level by the Fishing of oil in the Arctic. [64930] Liaison with Offshore Wind and Wet Renewables Charles Hendry: No. (FLOWW) Group. This is a UK-wide group, comprising offshore wind developers, government and fishing industry Thorium representatives from across the UK. It has produced Best Practice Guidelines for Fishing Liaison,1 thatitis Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of currently working to update. State for Energy and Climate Change if he will discuss Potential concerns from those sectors with a navigation the use of thorium with power-generating companies; interest are addressed at a strategic level with the and if he will make a statement. [64130] Department for Transport via the Nautical and Offshore Renewables Energy Liaison (NOREL) Group. This also Charles Hendry: Ultimately it is for the industry to has UK-wide remit and includes developers and navigation propose what type of fuel to use in any future nuclear representatives. reactors, the designs of which would be subject to independent regulatory assessment and acceptance. To At the project level, the planning process takes into date, no potential operator has put forward proposals account concerns from fishing and other marine sectors for a Thorium-fuelled plant. on a UK-wide and international basis, where appropriate. That said, the Department is aware of the potential 1 The document can be downloaded from: of thorium-fuelled nuclear reactor designs and is in the http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/what%20we%20do/ process of assessing claims regarding its suitability as uk%20energy%20supply/energy%20mix/renewable%20energy/ an alternative to uranium-based reactors in the longer-term. policy/offshore/groups/file46366.pdf 297W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 298W

HEALTH Mr Simon Burns: The Access to Work (ATW) scheme is administered by the Department for Work and Pensions. Funding Care and Support The Department of Health does not receive ATW support for its disabled employees. None of the ministerial 17. Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for government Departments receive ATW support for their Health what assessment he has made of the disabled employees. conclusions and recommendations of the recent report The support given to disabled staff by the Department by the Commission on Funding of Care and Support. of Health falls within the provisions of the Department’s [65125] ‘Reasonable Adjustments’ policy, which is compliant with the requirements of the Equality Act. Paul Burstow: I refer the hon. Member to the answer previously given. Departmental Dismissal As set out by the Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), in his statement to the House on 4 July 2011, Official Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, columns 1232-1234, the Government welcome Health how many officials in his Department were the report of the Commission on the Funding of Care dismissed for under-performance as a result of the and Support and will consider its recommendations procedures arising from his Department’s staff carefully. appraisal system in each of the last three years. [64685]

21. Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: The Department has dismissed five Health what assessment he has made of the or fewer employees for inefficiency in the last three conclusions and recommendations of the recent report years; five or fewer in 2009; five or fewer in 2010 and by the Commission on Funding of Care and Support. none to date in 2011. [65129] Following Cabinet Office guidelines, exact numbers are not published where numbers are five or fewer to Paul Burstow: As set out by the Secretary of State for prevent individuals being personally identified in Health, the right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire combination with other published information. (Mr Lansley), in his statement to the House on 4 July 2011, Official Report, columns 1232-1234, the Government Diseases: Health Services welcome the report of the Commission on the Funding of Care and Support and will consider its recommendations Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health carefully. what plans he has to support improvements in the Decision Making: Consumer Involvement provision of therapies for patients with vary rare non-cancer conditions [65577]

20. Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: The Health and Social Care Bill Health what steps he is taking to ensure that those sets out the intention for the NHS Commissioning affected by proposed changes in health and social care Board to take responsibility for the commissioning of provision are involved in the decision-making process. specialised services for very rare conditions. Commissioning [65128] for these services is currently undertaken at both a national and regional level. Future commissioning Mr Simon Burns: This Government are committed to arrangements will ensure that they are planned and putting patients and public at the heart of decision delivered more consistently than at present. making about health and social care services. “No decision about me without me” is a fundamental thread Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health running through this Government’s plans for improving what procedures the National Institute for Health and the nation’s health and well-being. Clinical Excellence will use to establish which therapies Mixed-sex Wards will be referred to the Advisory Group for National Specialised Services. [65578] 22. Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress he has made in reducing the use Mr Simon Burns: The majority of new drugs and of mixed-sex accommodation in the NHS. [65130] significant licence extensions are considered through the topic selection process for the National Institute for Mr Simon Burns: In just six months, the number of Health and Clinical Excellence’s (NICE) technology reported breaches of mixed-sex accommodation guidance appraisal programme, against published criteria. If NICE has fallen by 83%, from 11,802 in December 2010 to considers that by undertaking an appraisal it would not 2,011 in May 2011. Across England, the reported ‘breach be able to add value, then for high cost, low volume rate’ is now 1.4 per 1,000 Finished Consultant Episodes, drugs for very rare conditions, NICE can send the compared to 8.4 per 1,000 FCEs in December 2010. technology to the Advisory Group for National Specialised Services for consideration for possible inclusion in the Access to Work Programme arrangements for national specialised commissioning. Details of the topic selection criteria and process for Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for NICE technology appraisals can be found at: Health how many disabled people are being supported www.nice.org.uk/aboutnice/howwework/ in employment in his Department under its access to howguidancetopicsarechosen/ work programme. [65044] how_guidance_topics_are_chosen.jsp 299W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 300W

Glenfield Hospital Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health by what means allied health professionals will be able Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for to provide advice and support through clinical senates Health what recent assessment he has made of the and clinical networks. [64805] potential impact of reducing the number of adult respiratory extracorporeal membrane oxygenation Mr Simon Burns: The Government want the full beds available at Glenfield hospital, Leicester, following range of health and care professionals to be involved in the review of congenital heart services in England. the new commissioning arrangements, supporting the [64817] NHS Commissioning Board and clinical commissioning groups to design pathways of care and shape services. Mr Simon Burns: The national health service in England The Government’s response to the NHS Future Forum is currently undertaking a procurement exercise to increase Report makes clear that they will strengthen existing the provision of respiratory extra corporeal membrane duties on clinical commissioning groups to secure oxygenation (otherwise known as ECMO) for critically professional advice and ensure this advice is from a full ill adults with potentially reversible severe respiratory range of health professionals where relevant. failure. It is expected that the newly designated service will be delivered through a number of hospitals to Clinical commissioning groups will receive expert ensure patients have equity of access and receive parity support and advice from clinical networks and senates of service. on the design and delivery of services, in order to provide the best care and outcomes for patients. The The consultation of the Safe and Sustainable review Government’s response to the NHS Future Forum report on the future of children’s congenital services finished makes clear that clinical senates will provide advice on a on 1 July 2011. This review has taken account of the range of issues and from a variety of health and care need for the NHS in England to be able to continue to perspectives, including from allied health professionals. provide high quality ECMO for children with severe The NHS Commissioning Board will work with respiratory conditions but has no implications for the stakeholders and the NHS Future Forum on the detailed adult ECMO service. design of clinical senates, and we will publish further Health and Social Care Bill detail in due course.

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for Health what plans he has to make amendments to what processes he intends to put in place to enable the designation and insolvency elements of the Health commissioners to receive advice and support from and Social Care Bill. [65800] allied health professionals if they are not members of commissioning groups. [64806] Mr Simon Burns: As confirmed at the debate on recommittal of the Bill on 21 June 2011, amendments Mr Simon Burns: The Government want the full to the designation and insolvency elements of the Bill range of health and care professionals to be involved in will be brought forward either at Report, or in another the new commissioning arrangements, supporting the place. Parliament will have full opportunity to debate NHS Commissioning Board and clinical commissioning these amendments. groups to design pathways of care and shape services. Health Services The Government’s response to the NHS Future Forum Report makes clear that they will strengthen existing Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health duties on clinical commissioning groups to secure what assessment he has made of the benefits of clinical professional advice and ensure this advice is from a full networks of operating as managed clinical networks; range of health professionals where relevant. Clinical and what assessment he has made of the resource needs commissioning groups will also receive expert support of managed clinical networks to carry out their roles. and advice from clinical networks and senates on the [64785] design and delivery of services. Clinical networks and senates will have a wide range of multi-disciplinary Mr Simon Burns: Clinical networks take many different input, including from allied health professionals. forms; some are discussion forums for clinicians and Clinical commissioning groups will be supported and scientists, others work to improve clinical performance held to account by a national NHS Commissioning and patient care for a specific patient group, and others— Board. Subject to the passage of the Health and Social called managed clinical networks—seek to manage patients Care Bill, the NHS Commissioning Board will be through specific pathways of care. Resource needs vary responsible for issuing guidance to commissioning groups according to the size and responsibilities of the network. on their duty to obtain appropriate professional advice, The NHS Future Forum report concluded that networks for example in relation to working with clinical networks are: and senates. “working well to support multi-professional input to deliver improved outcomes for patients”; Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State and the Government have committed to retain and for Health how many times he has met (a) Professor strengthen existing clinical networks and to use clinical Louis Appleby CBE, National Clinical Director for networks to help ensure that a range of professionals Health and Criminal Justice, (b) Dr Ian Barns, play an integral part in the clinical commissioning of National Clinical Director for Pathology, (c) Professor patient care. Further work will be undertaken to define Dame Carol M. Black, National Director for Health these networks and review their range, function and and Work, (d) Professor Alistair Burns, National effectiveness to deliver strengthened clinical networks in Clinical Director for Dementia, (e) David Colin- the new system. Thome OBE, National Clinical Director for Primary 301W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 302W

Care, (f) Professor Matthew Cooke, National Clinical Maternity Services Director for Urgent and Emergency Care, (g) Professor Lindsey Davies, National Director of Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Pandemic Influenza Preparedness, (h) Hugh Griffiths, when the NHS Commissioning Board will start to host National Director for Mental Health, (i) Dr Charles neonatal networks; and what interim arrangements will Gutteridge, National Clinical Director for Informatics, be in place to secure existing neonatal networks until (j) Dr Rowan Hillson MBE, National Director for that time. [64784] Diabetes, (k) Professor Martin Lombard, National Clinical Director for Liver Disease, (l) Dr Anne Mr Simon Burns: The Government’s response to the Mackie, National Clinical Director for Screening, (m) NHS Future Forum report sets out that the NHS Jonathan Mason, National Clinical Director for Commissioning Board will be established formally by Pharmacy, (n) Dr Donal J. O’Donogue, National October 2012 with a limited set of functions, in order to Clinical Director for Kidney Services, (o) Professor start considering applications for authorisation from David Oliver, National Clinical Director for Older clinical commissioning groups. It will take on its full People, (p) Professor Sir Mike Richards CBE, responsibilities from October 2013. National Clinical Director for Cancer, (q) Chris J. Rudge, National Clinical Director for Transplantation, Clinical networks are not organisations, but rather (r) Joan Sadler, National Director for Patient and they are a managed way of bringing together the appropriate Public Affairs, (s) Surinda Sharmer, National Director groups of al! relevant clinical professionals alongside for Equality and Human Rights, (t) Dr Sheila other key stakeholders—especially patient representatives, Shribman, National Clinical Director for Children, to support clinical commissioning groups in improving Young People and Maternity Services, (u) Professor outcomes for patients in specialist areas. Existing clinical Keith Willett, National Clinical Director for Trauma networks will be retained and strengthened, and there Care, (v) Anne Williams, National Clinical Director will now be further work to define these networks and for Learning Disabilities, (w) Martin Stephens, review their range, function and effectiveness in order to National Clinical Director for Pharmacy and (x) develop transitional and hosting arrangements. Professor Roger Boyle CBE, National Clinical Director Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for Heart Disease and Stroke since May 2010. [64985] whether he plans to issue guidance to the NHS on the establishment of maternity networks and their Mr Simon Burns: The Secretary of State and Ministers relationship with existing neonatal networks. [64786] at the Department meet National Clinical Directors regularly in the normal course of business and have Anne Milton: In June, the Government responded to done so since May last year. the NHS Future Forum, where we agreed to retain and strengthen existing networks so that they cover many more areas of specialist care, and to give them a stronger Kidneys: Transplant Surgery role in commissioning in support of the NHS Commissioning Board and local clinical commissioning groups. Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for It is important that maternity and neonatal services Health how many kidney transplants took place in develop and maintain close relationships, but service England in each of the last three years; and what providers will need to agree how this can best be achieved proportion were from (a) live and (b) deceased locally. donors. [65758] Medical Equipment: Safety Anne Milton: The information is provided in the following table. Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment his Department has made of Kidney transplants performed in England, 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2011, by year the safety of surgical instruments used in the NHS. Financial year [64742] Transplant type 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Mr Simon Burns: The Medicines and Healthcare Deceased donor 1,192 1,244 1,271 products Regulatory Agency will assess and investigate kidney any adverse incidents and allegations of non-compliance Living donor 831 931 882 kidney with the safety, quality and performance requirements of the EC Medical Devices Directive 93/42/EC which are received with respect to medical devices including Other multi- organ1 surgical instruments. Kidney and 128 143 140 At present there is no evidence that there is a widespread pancreas problem with the safety of surgical instruments. Kidney and 100 heart Negligence Kidney and liver 12 14 8 Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Total 2,164 2,332 2,301 when he plans to announce further details of the 1 Multi-organ transplants involving kidneys (deceased organ donor). Source: Government’s proposals for a duty of candour in NHS Blood and Transplant clinical negligence cases. [64807] 303W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 304W

Mr Simon Burns: The Government have made clear NHS Commissioning Board: Finance their intention to strengthen transparency of organisations and increase patient confidence by introducing a “duty Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State of candour”: a new contractual requirement on providers for Health what his latest estimate is of the budget for to be open and transparent in admitting mistakes. This the NHS Commissioning Board; and when he intends will be enacted through contractual mechanisms. We to publish that budget. [64989] will set out more details about this shortly. Mr Simon Burns: Sir David Nicholson, chief designate of the NHS Commissioning Board, published “Developing NHS Commissioning Board the NHS Commissioning Board” on 8 July 2011. As that document sets out, the Board is at the early stages Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State of development. The Board is expected to assume its for Health (1) how he intends to develop local arms of full responsibilities from April 2013, and we will publish NHS commissioning boards to take on commissioning further information on associated budgets in due course. duties for shadow health groups; and if he will make a A copy of the document has already been placed in statement; [64794] the Library. (2) how many sub-national structures the NHS Commissioning Board will have. [64795] NHS: Anniversaries

Mr Simon Burns: The National Health Service Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Commissioning Board will be free to take decisions for Health whether he attended any events to mark the about how best to discharge its responsibilities. It is 63rd anniversary of the creation of the NHS; and if he anticipated that the areas covered by the primary care will make a statement. [64734] trust clusters now in place will be reflected in the initial arrangements for the local arms of the Board. Mr Simon Burns: The Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), was pleased to mark the national health Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State service’s 63rd birthday by announcing the launch of the for Health whether NHS Commissioning Board staff NHS Leadership Academy at NHS London’s change deployed locally to perform direct commissioning and through leadership conference on 5 July 2011. other associated functions will be permanently based in designated areas. [64796] NHS: Conditions of Employment Mr Simon Burns: Details on the deployment of NHS Commissioning Board staff to local commissioning Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State arms have not yet been finalised. for Health pursuant to his answer of 29 June 2011, Official Report, column 872W, on NHS: conditions of employment, what progress he has made on developing Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State a HR Framework; and when he intends to publish it. for Health by what means he intends to assess when a [64988] shadow commissioning group should become an authorised commissioning group. [64986] Mr Simon Burns: A national Human Resources (HR) Transition Framework which provides generic guidance Mr Simon Burns: Clinical commissioning groups that covering the employment and human resources processes are ready and willing by April 2013 could be authorised throughout the transition was published on 7 July 2011. to take on full budgetary responsibility. Some will only This framework is intended to help provide consistency be authorised in part. Others will only be established in during the transition as well as encouraging best HR shadow form. This will be determined through a robust practice throughout. process of authorisation, run by the NHS Commissioning A copy of the framework has been placed in the Board, with input from emerging health and well-being Library. boards and local clinicians. NHS: Reform Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what funds will be available to shadow Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State commissioning groups prior to taking in their for Health what involvement national clinical directors commissioning functions. [64987] have had in developing NHS reforms. [64990]

Mr Simon Burns: Primary care trust (PCT) clusters Mr Simon Burns: The national clinical directors meet will support the development of clinical commissioning monthly to provide their clinical input to policy groups through offering support, including a fund of development, including national health service reforms. £2 per head to support them in the development of their The minutes of these meetings are available on the consortia. Where clinical commissioning groups are Department’s website: able, and supported by their PCT cluster, they can take www.dh.gov.uk/en/Aboutus/ on delegated commissioning responsibilities prior to MinistersandDepartmentLeaders/Nationalclinicaldirectors/ April 2013, within the current legislative framework. DH_089451 305W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 306W

Organs: Donors chosen in part for their interest in specialised services, for example, the Specialised Healthcare Alliance and Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Rare Disease UK. They were also chosen in part for Health (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that their broad interests in public and patient engagement, implementation of the recommendations of the Organ for instance the Richmond Group, a coalition often Donation Task Force are not affected by his plans for major charities. The steering group met on 5 May and efficiency savings in the NHS; and if he will take steps 27 May 2011. to retain all the posts that are responsible for delivery Tuberculosis: Drugs of the programme; [65756] (2) what steps he is taking to increase the proportion Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for of donated organs that are transplanted as set out in Health what recent assessment he has made of the the NHS Blood and Transplant Strategic Plan 2011. supply of anti-tuberculosis drugs. [65115] [65757] Anne Milton: Although there have previously been Anne Milton: Implementation of the Organ Donation occasional shortages of tuberculosis (TB) medicines, we Taskforce recommendations has seen donor rates rise are not aware of any current national shortages or of by around 28% since 2008 but work continues at a local, patients being adversely affected. regional and national level to increase donor rates still The Department is working closely with the further to the 50% by 2013 anticipated by the Organ pharmaceutical industry and the national health service Donation Taskforce. to help ensure that patients continue to get the medicines Future action will focus on increasing consent rates; they need. ensuring that the potential for donation can be optimised We have set up a group including two of the authors in all cases; and increasing donation from emergency of a recent survey of anti-TB medicine supply (on medicine. This will be achieved through a variety of behalf of the UK Coalition to Stop TB) and other means, including through the clinical leads for organ NHS experts to look at what can be done to ensure donation, donation committees and donation chairs in greater security of supply.We are also looking at improving acute trusts driving improvement locally; regional communication to enable better planning for patients. collaboration to share learning and ongoing work to raise the profile and benefits of organ donation and transplantation with the national health service, professional EDUCATION groups and with the public. Academies: Admissions We will seek to ensure that measures to increase organ donation are appropriately incorporated into the Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for new arrangements for the Department and the NHS as Education who will be responsible for ensuring equal these are established. access to academies under a fair admissions procedure. Specialised Service Treatment Group [64697] Mr Gibb: All state funded schools, including academies, Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health are required to comply with the School Admissions and on whose instruction the Specialised Service Treatment Appeals Codes. It is the responsibility of admissions Group (SSTG) was established; on what date the authorities to ensure that the admissions arrangements decision to establish the SSTG was taken; when the they set, having consulted with parents and others as SSTG was formed; what the (a) name and (b) specified in regulations, must comply with the code. occupation is of each member of the group; and what Parents, local authorities and others as set out in regulations advice the group has given to NHS commissioning can refer any admissions arrangements they feel are bodies on the commissioning of stereotactic body unfair to the Office of the Schools Adjudicator (OSA). radiotherapy treatment. [65082] Currently for academies these objections are made to the Young Persons Learning Agency. In future, subject Mr Simon Burns: The Department is unaware of a to clause 62 of the Education Bill, we intend to see all Specialised Service Treatment Group that provides advice objections being made to the same body, the OSA. to national health service commissioning bodies. Local authorities have a duty, under the School Admissions Code, to refer any admissions arrangements they feel to Specialised Services Patient and Public Engagement be unfair or unlawful to the OSA. Steering Group The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health launched a full public consultation on proposed reforms when nominations to the Specialised Services Patient to the codes and it is intended that a revised form of the and Public Engagement Steering Group were made; by codes, taking account of the consultation, will be made what means (a) patients and (b) members of the available for admission authorities to use from September public were selected to sit on the group; and on what 2011. Subject to the passage of the Education Bill, we dates the group has met. [65083] anticipate bringing the final codes into force in early 2012. One of the proposals in the consultation is that Mr Simon Burns: Nominations to the Specialised we would wish to enable anyone who has concerns over Services Patient and Public Engagement Steering Group the fairness of admission arrangements at any school, were confirmed in April 2011. The patient representative including academies, will be able to refer their objections organisations selected to sit on the steering group were to the OSA. 307W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 308W

Academies: Sheffield training (NEET) has fallen substantially from 9.4% at the end of 2009 to 7.3% at the end of 2010. More young Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for people than ever before are participating in education Education pursuant to the answer of 29 June 2011, or training, building towards the Government’s Official Report, column 881W, on academies: Sheffield, commitment to full participation as we raise the what plans he has for the future position of head participation age to 17 in 2013 and 18 in 2015. teachers who have recently taken over failing schools; The responsibility to secure education rests with local and if he will make a statement. [64374] authorities who have a legal duty in England to ensure that education is available for all children of compulsory Mr Gibb: My answer given on 29 June 2011, Official school age that is appropriate to their age, ability, Report, column 881W, made clear that the Department aptitudes and any special educational needs they may does not intend to publish a list of the 200 worst have. This duty applies irrespective of a child’s immigration performing primary schools in England. With regard to status, country of origin or rights of residence in a the future position of head teachers who have recently particular area. Local authorities in England also have taken over failing schools, we will consider each school a duty to secure enough suitable education and training on a case by case basis. to provide for the reasonable needs of all persons in their area who are under 19 but over compulsory school Access to Work Programme age and to encourage, assist and enable them to participate. These duties apply to all young people who are resident Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for in the local authority’s area. Education how many disabled people are being The Green Paper ‘Support and aspiration: a new supported in employment in his Department under its approach to special education needs and disability’ sets access to work programme. [65048] out proposals to improve the outcomes of disabled young people and young people with special educational Tim Loughton: At the present time, no employees in needs. These include access to better quality vocational the Department for Education are being supported in and work related options, with good opportunities and employment through Jobcentre Plus’s Access to Work support to get a job and early and well integrated programme. support through the 0 to 25 single assessment process The Department for Education provided support for and the Education, Health and Care Plan. 58 disabled employees in the financial year 2010/11, through its own workplace assessment and ‘reasonable adjustments’ programmes. Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Adoption Service: Sick Leave

Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many and what proportion of eligible Education what the average number of days taken off children were adopted (a) within and (b) after sick per employee of the Children and Family Court 12 months in each local authority area in the most Advisory and Support Service in England and Wales recent year for which figures are available. [64569] was in 2010. [65027]

Tim Loughton: Local authorities are responsible for Tim Loughton: This is an operational matter for making decisions about whether looked after children which Cafcass is responsible. I have asked Cafcass’s should be placed for adoption. However, they have no chief executive, Anthony Douglas, to write to the hon. authority to place the children with adoptive families Member with this information. A copy of his reply will unless a court has made a placement order or the birth be placed in the House Libraries. parents have given their consent. Once placed, the The Public Accounts Committee raised concerns about prospective adopter may apply for an adoption order the level of sickness absence among Cafcass staff at its once the child has lived with them for at least 10 weeks. hearing on during its 2010 enquiry, Cafcass’s “Response A table showing the numbers and percentages of to Increased Demand for its Services”. As a result, the looked after children adopted (a) within and (b) after Department’s 2011-12 remit letter for Cafcass made 12 months of a local authority’s decision that they be clear our intention to monitor progress in reducing placed for adoption has been placed in the House sickness absence. Libraries. These figures apply to England only. Letter from Anthony Douglas, dated 7 July 2011: Children I am writing to you in response to the three Parliamentary Questions that you tabled recently: The responses apply to England only. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State PQ65027 - To ask the Secretary of State for Education, what for Education what steps his Department is taking to the average number of days taken off sick per employee of the assist (a) disabled children, (b) children with special Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service in educational needs and (c) refugee and migrant England and Wales was in 2010. populations who are not in education, employment or The average number of days taken off sick per employee was training; and if he will make a statement. [64053] 11.4 days in the period 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011. PQ65028 - To ask the Secretary of State for Education, how Tim Loughton [holding answer 5 July 2011]: The many persons employed by the Children and Family Court Advisory latest data show that the overall proportion of 16 to and Support Service in England and Wales were classed as being 18-year-olds who are not in education, employment or on long-term sick leave in 2010. 309W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 310W

The number of employees classed as being on long term sick Tim Loughton: Information on the percentage of was 242 during the period 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011. Long looked after children who achieve the expected standard term is classed as anyone being away from work for a period of in English and mathematics in Key Stage 2 tests is 20 working days. available in table 2.1 of the Departments Statistical PQ 65029 - To ask the Secretary of State for Education, how First Release, Outcomes for Children Looked After by many (a) individual and (b) group grievances were taken out by Local Authorities in England, as at 31 March 2010. staff employed by the Children and Family Court Advisory and This shows the percentage of children looked after Support Service in England and Wales in 2010. continuously for 12 months at 31 March who achieved The number of formal grievances was 39 of which 2 were at least level 4 in English and mathematics Key Stage 2 group formal grievances during the period 1 April 2010-31 tests for all years since 2006. Information on years prior March 2011. to 2006 is not available from this data source. The publication can be found at: Children in Care: English Language http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000978/ index.shtml Information taken from table 2.1 is shown in table 1; Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for this follows the current practice of comparing the academic Education what proportion of (a) looked after achievement of children looked after continuously for children and (b) other children achieved the expected 12 months with that of all children. Information on the standard in English and mathematics at key stage 2 in Key Stage 2 performance of children not looked after (i) 1997 and (ii) 2010. [64384] can be provided only at disproportionate cost.

Table 1: Performance of children who have been looked after continuously for at least 12 months1 at Key Stage 2, includes comparisons with all children2. Years: 2006- 10. Coverage: England Percentage 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Children looked after Percentage who achieved at least Level 43, 4 in the following: English 43 45 45 45 45 Mathematics 40 42 43 44 44 English and Mathematics 32 33 35 35 36

All children Percentage who achieved at least Level 43 in the following: English 79 80 81 80 81 Mathematics 76 77 79 79 80 English and Mathematics 70 71 73 72 74 1 Children looked after continuously for at least twelve months at 31 March excluding those children in respite care 2. Figures for all children taken from National Curriculum Assessments at Key Stage 2 and 3 in England, 2009/10 . 3 Expected level for age group. Figures at Key Stage 2 are based on test results. 4 Although there were 2,400 children eligible to take the Key Stage 2 tests the percentages are based on 1,800 children who attended schools that participatedinthe tests. Pupils in schools which did not participate in Key Stage 2 tests have been removed from the calculations. See Technical Note 9. Source: CLA-NPD matched data

Information on the Key Stage 2 attainment of children different cohort of children, the percentages given in looked after continuously for 12 months for years prior table 2 are not directly comparable with those shown in to 2006 relates to children looked after continuously at table 1 above. The earliest year for which this information 30 September each year. Because this data has been is available is 2000; this is shown in the table 2 as derived from a different data source and includes a follows:

Table 2: Eligibility and performance of looked-after children in Key Stage tasks and tests, compared with all children, school years ending 30 September 2000 and 2001. England Number and percentage Looked-after children All children1 Number Percentage Percentage 2000 2001 2000 2001 2000 2001

Number eligible to sit Key 2,7002,800———— Stage 2 tasks and tests

Number who attained at least Level 42 in the following: English 860 940 32.3 33.3 74 74 Mathematics 810 820 30.4 29.1 71 70 1 Source—DFES statistical bulletin ‘National curriculum assessments of 7, 11 and 14 year olds in England—2001’. 2 Target level for age group. 311W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 312W

Children: Autism Number of SCRs initiated, as a result of a serious incident relating to the death or serious injury of a child notified to Ofsted between 10 June 2010 and 31 March 2011 (includes information available to the DfE as at 30 June 2011 but Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for please note these data are updated daily and are therefore subject to change)1 Education what steps are being taken to ensure that Number children with autistic spectrum disorders receive the In September 2010 6 appropriate support in school. [65068] In October 2010 5 In November 2010 6 Sarah Teather: Schools and local authorities have In December 2010 7 duties to identify children with special educational needs In January 2011 6 (SEN), including those with autistic spectrum disorders, In February 2011 7 and to make appropriate provision for them. In March 2011 11 Consultation has recently finished on the SEN and 1 Decisions are awaited on a further two cases. disability Green Paper, “Support and aspiration”, which sets out wide-ranging proposals for improvement. The Children: Travellers Green Paper says that the Department will make available free training materials on four areas of SEN, including autism. Outstanding special schools, including those Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for which focus on providing for children with autism, will Education how many school age children from be able to apply to become teaching schools, or members Traveller communities there are in (a) England and of teaching school partnerships, developing their own (b) Northamptonshire; and how many such children staff alongside staff in schools in their network and are registered at (i) primary schools and (ii) secondary sharing their expertise. The Department will also help schools. [64652] local networks of schools develop teachers with specialist skills, such as skills in teaching children with autism, Mr Gibb [holding answer 11 July 2011]: The number who can be deployed across clusters of schools. of school age children from Traveller communities is not available. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) Children: Protection has published population estimates by ethnic group, but these do not have a separate category for Travellers. Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for The number of pupils of Traveller of Irish heritage Education how many serious case reviews were carried and Gypsy/Roma ethnic origin in primary and secondary out in each month from 10 June 2010 to the latest schools is shown in the following table. month for which figures are available. [61003] State-funded primary and secondary schools1,2,3: Number of pupils of Traveller of Irish heritage and Gypsy/Roma ethnic origin4. As at January 2011 in England and Northamptonshire local authority Tim Loughton [holding answer 20 June 2011]: Data State-funded primary State-funded secondary on the numbers of Serious Case Reviews (SCRs) initiated, Traveller of Traveller of following the notification to Ofsted of a death or serious Irish Gypsy/ Irish Gypsy/ injury of a child where abuse and neglect was known or heritage Roma heritage Roma suspected to be a factor between 10 June 2010 and England 3,035 8,425 1,150 4,320 31 March 2011, is set out in the table. Northamptonshire 61 85 15 16 It is the responsibility of LSCBs to decide whether to 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. initiate SCRs, in line with regulations and statutory 2 Includes primary academies. 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies. guidance. 4 Pupils of compulsory school age and above were classified according to ethnic Decisions taken by LSCBs on whether the criteria to group. Includes pupils who were sole or dual main registrations. Source: undertake SCRs have been met are normally taken School Census within one month of a case coming to the attention of the LSCB Chair. However, in practice decisions may Civil Service Agencies take longer and may be revisited in light of additional information, such as new medical evidence or the outcome Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for of a coroner’s inquest, which may subsequently become Education what the name is of each Executive agency available. Therefore, there may be variations in the data established by his Department since May 2010; and included in this table overtime. what the development cost was of each such agency. The Munro Review of child protection has recommended [64731] how to strengthen the SCR process to enable lessons to be learnt more effectively and the Government will Tim Loughton: The Department for Education has respond by the summer. not yet established any new Executive agencies. As part Number of SCRs initiated, as a result of a serious incident relating to the death of our reforms of public bodies four new Executive or serious injury of a child notified to Ofsted between 10 June 2010 and 31 agencies are being established to deliver our key priorities: March 2011 (includes information available to the DfE as at 30 June 2011 but please note these data are updated daily and are therefore subject to change)1 testing and assessment; Number school funding; Number of SCRs initiated as a result of a serious incident relating teaching; and to the death or serious injury of a child notified to Ofsted: school leadership. Between 10 June 2010 and 30 June 2010 6 In July 2010 5 We are planning for these agencies to be in operation by In August 2010 3 April 2012. The development costs of the new agencies will be available once they have been established. 313W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 314W

Curriculum Family Intervention Projects

Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether there are cost implications for his Education how many families received an intervention Department arising from the decision to split the through family intervention projects in each of the last National Curriculum Review into two stages. [64732] four financial years. [64957] Mr Gibb: We do not expect that our decision to phase Tim Loughton [holding answer 11 July 2011]: Official the National Curriculum review will make a substantial statistics published for the first time in September 2010 difference to its overall cost, although it could make a shows that 3,518 families were either receiving an difference to the way the costs are broken down between intervention or had received support from a family different financial years. We anticipate that, as this intervention project between 1 April 2009 and 31 March review is being managed by the Department for Education, 2010. Data for families supported between 1 April 2010 the costs will be significantly lower than for previous and 31 March 2011 will be published in September reviews of the National Curriculum. 2011. We do not have this information for previous years. Departmental Dismissal Free School Meals Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many officials in his Department were Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for dismissed for under-performance as a result of the Education what the cost to his Department was of the procedures arising from his Department’s staff provision of free school meals for post-16 students in appraisal system in each of the last three years. [64691] each of the last three years. [62963] Tim Loughton: Information for the Department (in Mr Gibb: The Department does not collect information the last three full financial years) is set out in the about the cost of free school meals. Local authorities following table: and schools fund free school meals from their overall resources, including the Dedicated Schools Grant, which Number of staff dismissed for is the main source of DfE funding for schools. under-performance Free school meals are provided to eligible pupils aged 2010-11 0 up to 18 years in schools maintained by a local authority, 2009-10 1— as defined in the Education Act 1996. Pupils aged 19 or over are also eligible as long as their course of study 2008-09 1— began before attaining the age of 18. Pupils attending 1 Fewer than 5 FE or sixth form colleges that are not part of a school Departmental Redundancy do not qualify for free school meals. Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for GCE A-level Education what recent estimate his Department has made of the cost to the public purse of redundancies in Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for its non-departmental bodies (a) in 2011-12 and (b) Education what subjects were available for study at (a) over the comprehensive spending review period. [61722] A level and (b) GCSE in (i) 1997 and (ii) 2010. [64205] Tim Loughton [holding answer 23 June 2011]: To Mr Gibb [holding answer 6 July 2011]: Details of A date, the Department has asked to carry out a voluntary level and GCSE examinations are presented in “Inter- redundancy scheme for one of its NDPBs. The scheme Awarding Body Statistics” prepared by the Joint Council is for Qualifications, Curriculum Development Agency for Qualifications, copies of which are available in the (QCDA) staff affected by its closure in September 2011; House Libraries. These publications provide breakdowns the estimated cost is £2.6 million. In order to try and of entries and results by subject and therefore indicate avoid compulsory redundancy, we are making significant the subjects which were available to be taken in each efforts to redeploy QCDA people. The Department year. continues to do all it can to avoid redundancies in the rest of its NDPBs, but can not say they will not be Head Teachers: Vacancies required in future. Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Sick Leave Education what steps he plans to take to reduce the number of vacancies for head teachers in maintained Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for schools; and what account was taken of the likely Education how many days of sick leave were taken by effects of proposed changes to teachers’ pensions in staff of his Department in the last 12 months for which deciding upon such steps. [64579] figures are available. [64729] Mr Gibb: We believe that the best schools and the Tim Loughton: Sickness absence data for the Department best head teachers should take responsibility for developing for Education are available on the Department’s website. the next generation of head teachers. We will continue This confirms 15,086 days sickness absence in the latest to support the National College’s existing approach to 12-month reporting period, ending 31 March 2011: succession planning, which is focused on providing http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ local solutions to find, develop and keep high-performing departmentalinformation/transparency/a00448/sickness- head teachers. Overtime we will increasingly work with absence teaching schools, as they become established, in order 315W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 316W to ensure that promising leaders are identified in each delegation requirement or is not managing expenditure local area and that they have the opportunity to learn properly. In those circumstances, the local authority, from the best in the system. and not the governing body may appoint, suspend and Meetings are taking place between Government and dismiss teachers and other staff at the school as the public service unions to discuss pension reform in light authority thinks fit. of Lord Hutton’s final report; no decisions have therefore Local authorities are represented on all maintained yet been taken on changes to the Teachers’ Pension school governing bodies, but are a ‘minority’ category Scheme (TPS). However, in taking forward reform of unless the school is eligible for intervention, in which the Teachers’ Pension Scheme the Government will case the local authority can appoint such number of consider carefully the potential impact on head teachers, additional governors as it deems appropriate. including recruitment and retention issues, in the context In respect of the Secretary of State’s powers regarding of the Government’s wider education reform agenda. an academy, the Secretary of State establishes an academy Schools by signing a funding agreement, which provides the framework within which the academy must operate. The governing body of an academy is accountable to Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for the Secretary of State through the requirements of its Education what powers local authorities have to funding agreement. If an academy is in breach of its control or direct state schools; and what powers he funding agreement, the Secretary of State may take intends he should have to control or direct academy legal action. If there should be a need for the Secretary schools. [64479] of State to Mr Gibb: Local authorities have a wide range of intervene more directly in the running of an academy, powers and duties in respect of maintained schools. A the academy’s Articles of Association make provision full list of local authority duties is published on the for him to do so by appointing additional governors to DCLG website: the governing body of the academy. The Secretary of State could also decide to terminate an academy’s funding http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ agreement if the grounds set out in the funding agreement decentralisation/tacklingburdens/reviewstatutoryduties/ apply. Academies continue to be subject to Ofsted Local authorities are able to decide significant changes inspections and are also accountable to parents through (prescribed alterations) such as enlargement, change of the achievement and attainment of pupils. The Secretary age range, closure and establishment, to all categories of of State can ask Ofsted to carry out an inspection of an maintained schools (i.e. community, community special, Academy causing concern. In addition, the YoungPeople’s foundation, foundation special, voluntary aided (VA) Learning Agency (YPLA), on behalf of the Secretary and voluntary controlled (VC)) which are proposed of State, plays a major role in overseeing the financial either by the local authority or the governing body. management of academies. Governing bodies have a right of appeal to the schools adjudicator, in most cases, where they disagree with the For both maintained schools and academies, the local authority’s decision. Secretary of State has reserved powers of direction. For community and VC schools, the local authority Schools: Admissions acts as the admissions authority in respect of school admissions, the employer of staff in those schools and Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Education the owner and maintainer of the premises. what proportion of applicants to schools for entry in Local authorities may, under section 96 of the School September 2011 were accepted by their (a) first choice Standards and Framework Act 1998 (SSFA), direct the and (b) second choice school. [64706] governing body of a foundation or voluntary aided school in its area to admit a child where, in relation to Mr Gibb: Detailed statistics on the numbers of every school within a reasonable distance from the applications and offers for places at secondary schools child’s home, the child has been refused admission or in September 2011, at both national and individual has been permanently excluded. Under section 97A to local authority level, were published in the Statistical 97C of the SSFA, a local authority may direct other Release OSR 06/2011. This can be found on the admission authorities for any maintained school to Department’s website at admit a child in their care to the school best suited to http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d000993/ their needs. osr07-2011.pdf Local authorities have statutory powers of intervention Information is not collected for primary schools. in maintained schools that Ofsted has judged as requiring special measures or significant improvement or where Teachers: Industrial Disputes the local authority itself has given a performance standards and safety warning notice. In such cases, local authorities Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State may require the school to enter into arrangements with for Education what guidance his Department has given another school or body, appoint additional governors to schools on the payment of salaries to teachers who to the school, suspend the right to a delegated budget, will be affected by school closures as a result of strike or apply to the Secretary of State to replace the governing action, but who do not support that strike action. body with an Interim Executive Board. [61571] Local authorities may also suspend the right of the governing body of a community or VC school to a Mr Gibb: The Department has not issued any guidance delegated budget where it appears to the local authority to schools on the payment of salaries to teachers who that the governing body has failed to comply with a did not take part in the strike action on the 30 June. It is 317W Written Answers12 JULY 2011 Written Answers 318W a matter for individual head teachers to determine This means that those close to retirement, including whether teachers who did not support the strike action head teachers, are expected to see little, if any, change to should still attend school, even in circumstances where their pension benefits. the school was closed to pupils. Regardless of any Transport Subsidies decision to close the school, teachers would still be able to carry out a number of key responsibilities such as Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for planning and the preparation and marking of pupil’s Education what information he holds on the number of work and as such continue to be paid accordingly. local authorities that plan to change the transport subsidies for 16 to 18 year olds accessing education and Teachers: Pensions training for academic year 2011-12. [64962] Tim Loughton: The Department for Education does Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for not hold information on the number of local authorities Education what impact his Department expects planning to change transport subsidies for 16 to 18 year changes to teachers’ pensions to have on (a) head olds accessing education or training for the 2011/12 teachers near to retirement age and (b) other head academic year. teachers. [64578] Youth Services: Finance

Mr Gibb: Meetings are taking place between Government Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for and public service unions to discuss pension reform in Education what assessment he has made of the level of light of Lord Hutton’s final report; no decisions have reductions in funding for youth services in (a) therefore yet been taken on changes to the Teachers’ Liverpool, Walton constituency, (b) Merseyside and Pension Scheme (TPS). However, in taking forward (c) England. [64949] reform of the TPS the Government will consider carefully the potential impact on head teachers, including recruitment Tim Loughton [holding answer 11 July 2011]: The and retention issues, in the context of the Government’s Department for Education’s funding for youth services wider education reform agenda. for 2011-12 and beyond is included in the Early Intervention The Government have already given a firm and absolute Grant (EIG). The EIG allocation for Liverpool local commitment that accrued pension benefits will be protected; authority has changed from £31.06 million in 2010-11 and that any changes to the provision of public sector to £27.18 million in 2011-12, a reduction of around pension schemes, including the TPS, would take effect 12.5%. from a future date and in respect of future service. In Money for youth services is not ring-fenced within addition, benefits already accrued under existing schemes the EIG. Decisions on funding levels for youth services will still be payable from the normal pension age in are for local authorities. It is for local authorities to existing schemes; this will be 60 for many members. assess and be accountable for them.

1MC Ministerial Corrections12 JULY 2011 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

Ministerial Correction £ million FY2007-08 Company (3 months) FY2008-09 FY2009-10 Total Tuesday 12 July 2011 Palletways 0.547 1.917 2.134 4.598 Pertemps 0 3.439 2.731 6.170 Private 0.880 — — — couriers DEFENCE As a direct result of the decision to close the regional MOD Bicester distribution centres and centralise distribution activities at Bicester and Donnington with greater use of third party logistics contractors, annual net savings of around Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence £4 million have been achieved. how much money MOD Bicester has paid to (a) Palletways (3PL Contract), (b) Pertemps Employment The correct answer should have been: Agency and (c) City Sprint and other private couriers since the decision to implement the closure of regional Peter Luff [holding answer 26 April 2011]: The total distribution centres; and if he will make a statement. payments made to Palletways, Pertemps Employment Agency and private couriers (including City Sprint) [52538] since late 2007 when the regional distribution centres [Official Report, 28 April 2011, Vol. 527, c. 569W.] were closed, are provided in the following table: Letter of correction from Peter Luff: An error has been identified in the written answer £ million given to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd FY2007-08 Company (3 months) FY2008-09 FY2009-10 Total (Mr Llwyd) on 28 April 2011. I regret that because of an administrative error, some of the figures for payments Palletways 0.547 1.917 2.134 4.598 to private couriers were omitted. Pertemps 0 3.439 2.731 6.170 The full answer given was as follows: Private 0.880 2.179 1.440 3.707 couriers Peter Luff [holding answer 26 April 2011]: The total As a direct result of the decision to close the regional payments made to Palletways, Pertemps Employment distribution centres and centralise distribution activities Agency and private couriers (including City Sprint) at Bicester and Donnington with greater use of third since late 2007 when the regional distribution centres party logistics contractors, annual net savings of around were closed, are provided in the following table: £4 million have been achieved.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 12 July 2011

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 141 HEALTH—continued Cancer Outcomes (Accountability) ...... 145 Mixed-sex Wards...... 153 Children’s Heart Services ...... 154 NHS Funding ...... 141 Dentistry...... 148 NHS Reorganisation...... 147 Funding Care and Support ...... 143 Older People (Cancer Care) ...... 155 GP Services...... 146 Older People (Social Care) ...... 152 GPs (Premium Rate Telephone Numbers) ...... 149 Patient Outcomes...... 150 Health Care Infrastructure Projects ...... 151 Topical Questions ...... 156 Hospital-acquired Infections...... 154 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 12 July 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 11WS HEALTH...... 16WS Alignment of Prosecutions (DEFRA and CPS)..... 11WS Health Act 2006 (Post-legislative Assessment) ...... 16WS

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 16WS CABINET OFFICE...... 11WS Contest (UK Strategy for Countering Terrorism) .. 16WS National School of Government...... 11WS UK Threat Level...... 16WS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 12WS JUSTICE...... 18WS Crown Estate Leases for Offshore Renewables Immigration Advisory Service...... 18WS Projects (Oil and Gas Clause) ...... 12WS Public Bodies Reform ...... 18WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 19WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Child Maintenance Reform...... 19WS AFFAIRS...... 13WS Up-rating Private Occupational Pensions Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 13WS (Move to CPI)...... 20WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 12 July 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 226W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Departmental Dismissal...... 226W continued Creating Strong, Safe and Prosperous BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 268W Communities...... 211W Arms Trade: Saudi Arabia ...... 268W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 211W Business: York...... 268W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 211W Consumers: Contracts...... 269W Fire Services: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 212W Flexible Working...... 269W Housing: Dorset...... 213W Green Investment Bank ...... 270W Housing: Employment ...... 213W Higher Education: Finance ...... 270W Housing: Parking ...... 214W Higher Education: Private Sector...... 270W Housing Revenue Accounts ...... 212W Leasehold: Fees and Charges ...... 214W CABINET OFFICE...... 260W Local Government: Accountability...... 216W Birth Rate ...... 260W Local Government Finance: Reviews...... 215W Civil Service: Yorkshire ...... 260W Local Government Finance: York...... 215W Cybercrime ...... 261W Local Government: Pay ...... 216W Departmental Contracts ...... 261W Mayors...... 217W Directors of Public Prosecutions...... 262W National Planning Policy Framework ...... 217W Immigration...... 262W Non-domestic Rates...... 217W Job Creation...... 265W Playing Fields: Wandsworth...... 218W New Businesses ...... 267W Road Traffic: Planning ...... 218W Public Data Corporation ...... 267W Social Rented Housing...... 219W Social Rented Housing: Pensioners ...... 219W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 209W Social Rented Housing: Rents...... 219W Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings ...... 209W Taxation...... 220W Broadband: Planning Permission...... 209W Capita ...... 210W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 227W Caravan Sites: Salford ...... 211W Abortion: Advertising...... 227W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Active Places Scheme ...... 227W continued Broadband: Alyn and Deeside ...... 227W Bahrain: Politics and Government ...... 254W Broadband: Public Finance...... 227W Departmental Travel ...... 255W Broadband: Rural Areas ...... 228W Egypt: Constitutions...... 255W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 228W European Union ...... 256W Mobile Phones: Radio Frequencies...... 228W Greece: Asylum...... 256W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 229W Libya: Politics and Government...... 257W Public Lending Right...... 229W Libya: Sanctions ...... 257W Radio Frequencies ...... 230W National Malaya and Borneo Veterans Sports ...... 230W Association ...... 258W Tourism...... 230W Pakistan: Religious Freedom...... 258W Sudan: Armed Conflict...... 258W DEFENCE...... 247W Syria...... 259W Armed Forces: Vehicles...... 247W Yemen: Arms Trade ...... 259W Army: Equipment ...... 247W Departmental Allowances...... 248W HEALTH...... 297W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 259W Access to Work Programme ...... 297W National Assembly for Wales: Elections...... 259W Decision Making: Consumer Involvement ...... 297W Departmental Dismissal...... 298W EDUCATION...... 306W Diseases: Health Services ...... 298W Academies: Admissions ...... 306W Funding Care and Support ...... 297W Academies: Sheffield ...... 307W Glenfield Hospital...... 299W Access to Work Programme ...... 307W Health and Social Care Bill...... 299W Adoption ...... 307W Health Services ...... 299W Children...... 307W Kidneys: Transplant Surgery...... 301W Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Maternity Services ...... 302W Service: Sick Leave...... 308W Medical Equipment: Safety...... 302W Children: Autism...... 311W Mixed-sex Wards...... 297W Children in Care: English Language ...... 309W Negligence ...... 302W Children: Protection...... 311W NHS: Anniversaries ...... 304W Children: Travellers ...... 312W NHS Commissioning Board ...... 303W Civil Service Agencies ...... 312W NHS Commissioning Board: Finance...... 304W Curriculum ...... 313W NHS: Conditions of Employment ...... 304W Departmental Dismissal...... 313W NHS: Reform...... 304W Departmental Redundancy ...... 313W Organs: Donors ...... 305W Departmental Sick Leave ...... 313W Specialised Service Treatment Group ...... 305W Family Intervention Projects ...... 314W Specialised Services Patient and Public Free School Meals...... 314W Engagement Steering Group...... 305W GCE A-level...... 314W Tuberculosis: Drugs ...... 306W Head Teachers: Vacancies ...... 314W Schools ...... 315W Schools: Admissions ...... 316W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 271W Teachers: Industrial Disputes...... 316W Access to Work Programme...... 271W Teachers: Pensions ...... 317W Animal Experiments ...... 271W Transport Subsidies...... 318W Animal Experiments: EU Law...... 271W Youth Services: Finance...... 318W Animal Scientific Procedures Inspectorate: Manpower ...... 271W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 291W Anti-Slavery Day ...... 271W Access to Work Programme ...... 291W Arrests ...... 272W Carbon Sequestration ...... 291W Asylum ...... 272W Departmental Regulation...... 292W Asylum: EU Countries ...... 273W Energy: Finance ...... 293W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 273W Green Economy Roadmap...... 294W Deportation ...... 274W Natural Gas ...... 294W Domestic Violence ...... 274W Natural Gas: Housing...... 295W Entry Clearances: Foreign Workers ...... 274W Nuclear Power Stations: Decommissioning...... 295W Entry Clearances: India ...... 275W Oil: Arctic ...... 295W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students...... 275W Thorium...... 295W Explosives ...... 276W Wind Power: Fisheries...... 296W Human Trafficking ...... 276W Identity and Passport Service: Correspondence..... 277W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Immigration: Crime ...... 278W AFFAIRS...... 221W Immigration: EU Action ...... 278W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 221W Immigration: Proof of Identity ...... 278W Dairy Products: Meat...... 222W National Crime Agency: Finance ...... 279W Eggs: Imports...... 222W Non-domestic Rates...... 279W Genetically Modified Organisms: Potatoes ...... 223W Police: Accountability ...... 279W Hill Farming ...... 223W Police: Procurement ...... 279W Raed Salah...... 280W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 254W Rape...... 281W Bahrain: Health Professions...... 254W Sexual Offences...... 283W Col. No. Col. No. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 225W TREASURY ...... 283W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 225W Child Care Tax Credit...... 283W Members: Postage Stamps ...... 226W Credit: Interest Rates ...... 283W Schools: Visits...... 226W Departmental Dismissal...... 284W Economic Policy ...... 284W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 248W Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation .. 285W Afghanistan: Drugs...... 248W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 285W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 248W Financial Services: Education ...... 285W South Sudan: Overseas Aid...... 248W Housing ...... 285W Sudan: Internally Displaced Persons...... 249W Housing: Wales ...... 286W UN Women...... 249W Income Tax ...... 286W Job Creation: Wales ...... 286W JUSTICE...... 249W Minimum Wage ...... 286W Civil Proceedings...... 249W National Insurance Contributions ...... 288W Land Registry ...... 250W Non-domestic Rates: Income ...... 289W Office of the Chief Coroner ...... 250W Public Expenditure...... 289W Office of the Public Guardian...... 250W Revenue and Customs: Correspondence ...... 289W Personal Injury: Evidence ...... 251W Tax Avoidance ...... 290W Prisoners: Repatriation ...... 251W VAT: Charities ...... 290W Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974...... 251W VAT: Tax Rates and Bands...... 290W Rochester Young Offender Institution: Welsh Assembly Government: Correspondence ..... 291W Inspections...... 251W WALES...... 220W Departmental Regulation...... 220W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 259W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 221W Administration Committee, Catering and Retail Social Services: Finance ...... 221W Services ...... 259W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 252W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 225W Equality ...... 252W Air Ambulance Services: Fuels...... 225W Equality and Human Rights Commission...... 252W Equality and Human Rights Commission: SCOTLAND...... 223W Accountancy...... 252W Departmental Regulation...... 223W Equality Impact Assessments...... 253W Directors: Females ...... 224W Railways...... 224W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 237W Social Security Benefits...... 224W Child Care Tax Credit...... 237W Child Support Agency ...... 237W TRANSPORT ...... 231W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 238W A120: Accidents...... 231W Departmental Dismissal...... 239W Airports ...... 231W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 239W Biggin Hill Airport...... 232W Disposable Income: Sunderland...... 239W Bus Services: Parliament Square ...... 232W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 240W Codsall Railway Station: Parking...... 232W Employment Schemes: Disability...... 240W Cycling: Helmets...... 232W Housing Benefit ...... 240W Dartford-Thurrock Crossing...... 233W Industrial Diseases...... 241W Driving Offences: Foreign Nationals...... 233W Industrial Health and Safety...... 241W East Coast Railway Line: Industrial Disputes...... 233W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 241W EU Law...... 234W Members: Correspondence ...... 242W London Underground: Guide Dogs...... 235W Personal Income: Sunderland ...... 242W Manchester Airport ...... 235W Social Security Benefits...... 242W Motor Vehicles: Insurance ...... 236W Social Security Benefits: Offenders...... 243W Ports: Brazil ...... 236W State Retirement Pensions: Females ...... 243W Public Transport: Olympic Games 2012...... 236W Unemployment: East Midlands ...... 244W Thameslink: Rolling Stock...... 236W Unemployment: Young People...... 245W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 12 July 2011

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 12 July 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 141] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Health

Southern Cross Care Homes [Col. 163] Answer to urgent question—(Mr Burstow)

Electricity Market Reform [Col. 178] Statement—(Chris Huhne)

National Debt Cap [Col. 196] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Sajid Javid)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Sir Malcolm Jack KCB [Col. 200] Motion, agreed to

Royal Assent [Col. 211] Public Bodies Bill [Lords] [Col. 212] Motion for Second Reading—(Mr Maude)—agreed to Amendment—(Tessa Jowell)—on a Division, negatived Programme motion—on a Division, agreed to

Youth Unemployment (Walsall) [Col. 283] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Train-building Industry [Col. 1WH] Housing Market Renewal [Col. 26WH] Drivers and Diabetes [Col. 51WH] Public Spending (Coventry) [Col. 58WH] Benefits (EU Nationals) [Col. 67WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 11WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 209W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 1MC]