Transcription of Conversation about Nordic at the Swedish Institute for Children's Literature

Participants: Maria Nilson (interviewer), Karin Mossed and Kajsa Bäckius

MN: Maria Nilson KM: Karin Mossed KB: Kajsa Bäckius Square brackets, [ ]: Notes about editing, showing of books and body language like smiling, laughing and gestures etc..

MN: I am sitting here with Karin and Kajsa, who are two of the definitely most well-read librarians in all of Sweden.

KM: Oh! [smiles]

MN: And we are going to talk about Nordic Fantasy. And one of the reasons that you are well-read is of course that at the Swedish Institute for Children’s Books, you keep track of everything that is published in Sweden.

KM: Mm

MN: So, you read a lot of books?

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KM: Yes, we do.

KB: Yes.

MN: I want to start by asking you: Is there, or is it just my dream of it. Is it right to say that we see more fantasy now published by authors in the Nordic countries?

KB: Yes! [laughs]

KM: Yes, you are correct. We think you are right. It is not only dreams, it is for real. But we do see more fantasy all in all from every country. For instance, last year half of the young adult books where fantasy titles. And to compare with just a few years ago when the rate was different.

MN: So, we are not just seeing… We also see more translations, aren’t we?

KM: Yes.

MN: Because I think a decade ago we had very few, I mean the big names were translated like Pullman and Tolkien, but now we have lots of more translations?

KM: Yes.

MN: And we have fantasy for all ages?

KB: Yes, mostly young adults but also for younger children.

MN: Is there a sort of age…? Do we have any kind of fantasy for children’s books, or at the age of seven or eight? Does the fantasy genre start with the age eleven to twelve, or is there fantasy for even very young children?

KB: I think we can say it starts from six years old; six to nine. And then we have nine to twelve. There is quite… [hesitates and talks in Swedish: “Hur säger man att öka?”]

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KM: Increase.

KB: It increases with age.

MN: And we were discussing this before the camera came on, that we are now handling fantasy very sort of loosely. In a way, maybe we are talking more about or ? In sort of a broad sense.

KM: Yes, that might be one of the reasons for us not to answer your questions like directly. Because there are so many hybrids and so many books that take place in… almost like in this world; . But then the… [hesitates and talks in Swedish: “Handling?”]

MN: The intrigue, the story.

KM: The story or the intrigue takes place just on another level, not always notable. So, it is more complicated now than before. We don’t see only stories versus realistic stories. But a lot of umbrella… like a big umbrella.

MN: And I think a good example of that is the two Fantasy series that has become huge successes in the Nordic countries, The Engelsfors Trilogy and that’s urban fantasy, and Siri Pettersen.

KM: Yes!

MN: And how would you…Siri Pettersen…Raven…?

KM: The Raven Rings.

MN: How would you define her books? It is a Norwegian author, and it is also a trilogy.

KM: [Turns to KB] Do you want to talk about it?

KB: No, you have read it.

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KM: I have read all three of them [smiles and laughs].

KM: [Continues to talk] Well it is quite interesting that you picked just this one. Because the first book, Odin’s Child - a massive book - takes place in a totally different landscape or world, than the world as we know it. I would read it as a high fantasy book. Set in Norway maybe, or ancient Norway or anything like that. But in the second book, the protagonist Hirka from the first book, suddenly moves to London today and to Stockholm; today as well. So the world, or the trilogy, that was first known as a high fantasy book turned into urban fantasy. And in the third part or the third book… I don’t know if there are any spoiler alerts here, or supposed to be…[smiles] I think that goes to another level as well. I think Siri Pettersen has created a new kind of hybrid in her authorship.

[The editor made a cut here]

MN: But Cederlund is also interesting because we were talking before if there is, and it is always difficult; if there is something, if we can see a common theme in Nordic Fantasy? And that is always a bit tricky. But I am thinking about the Cederlund novel, because then we have a young author and she uses the Sami culture in that book. And you actually [nods at KM], can see a little bit of a trend in what material is used. So please, tell me more about that!

KM: Especially in Cederlund or in Nordic…?

MN: Yes! [nods and makes a hand sign that indicates that she means overall in Nordic Fantasy]

KM: Firstly, if we do define Nordic Fantasy as fantasy written by Nordic authors, then we do see a lot of Nordic authors writing about their own heritage; the Nordic and Norse mythology and stuff. And Cederlund is one example, with the Sami culture and all those elements in that.

[The editor made a cut here]

MN: And when it comes to supernatural creatures, I am thinking that these things are not always easy in translations. Because we have seen so many translations of Astrid Lindgren for

4 example, Ronia, the Robber’s Daughter, where a lot of the creatures are called gnomes, and they are not gnomes! Or they are called something else… But they are a very specific kind of Nordic creature that you can’t find an English translation to.

KM: Yes.

MN: But why do you think we have an interest in Nordic mythology all over? We have like The Adventures of Thor, and I mean we not really recognize Thor from a Nordic point of view. That’s not really how Thor is in our old tales, isn’t it?

KM: No, not at all.

MN: So, why do you think Nordic writers find it interesting to use that kind of material?

KM: [Turns to KB]. Do you want to?

KB: No, I don’t know.

KM: I think it is quite difficult to say one thing or the other, but in fantasy it has been… Fantasy fiction written by Nordic authors before were, I believe you can say more impressed, by translated books. And maybe a little bit fatigued, could you say that?

MN: Mm

KM: …in the others, and just want to look into where you stand or where you at. And maybe it is a little bit more interesting to find, and maybe reclaim, the Nordic symbols from other forces in life, in the world. Just to know, this is our heritage and could not be kidnapped by others. Maybe; it is just a personal reflection I made. But also, that there has been so much more fantasy written on other grounds, like from other mythologies. As for instance, old European religions like Roman and ancient Greece.

MN: And the Celt; I am thinking a lot with Tolkien.

KM: Yes, but Tolkien was also very… [hesitates and talks Swedish: “Vad sager man;

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MN: Influenced by.

KM: Yes, influenced by the Norse mythology as well. What we see today is almost a little bit more like authors waving “Hi!” to Tolkien as well. And of course, George R.R. Martin.

[The editor made a cut here]

MN: You brought with you some books and that I think, is an interesting selection! Because in Sweden it used to be like, when you are my age, like twenty or thirty years ago there were not a lot of fantasy. And now we have much more fantasy. And I think the Pax Series is interesting because that is series that are deliberately written for young people who do not read.

[The editor made a cut here]

KB: [Shows the book Pax. Grimmen] Well this is low fantasy, or urban fantasy or what you call it. About two boys in this world, in Sweden. And they are chosen to…

[The editor made a cut here]

MN: Guard a magical library.

KB: And they meet a lot of supernatural beings like the Grim. We can also read about the Grim in .

MN: So, this is a little bit like fantasy, but also horror with sort of and stuff?

KB: Yes.

MN: And it is aimed for a younger reader?

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KB: Yes, nine to twelve approximately. It is a whole series of books, and every book ends with a cliffhanger, so you want to read the next book.

MN: So, they are very much put together in order to encourage people to read?

KB: Yes. And there are also a lot of pictures.

MN: Yes.

KM: It is a cartoonist who illustrated it, isn’t it?

KB: Yes.

MN: But they are quite beautifully done.

KB: Yes.

KM: Mm [nods].

MN: But also, quite dark, thinking that they are aimed for a younger reader.

MN: [Continues to talk] But then the Engelsfors Trilogy, because you probably brought those as well…

KM: Just the first one.

MN: Yes.

KB: [Grabbing the first book in the Engelsfors Trilogy]

MN: [Continues to talk about the Engelsfors Trilogy] Who also became very, very popular. And they made a movie on the first book. And this is also, what would you say, urban fantasy?

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KB: [Shows the book The Circle] Yes, or low fantasy. We were talking yesterday about the difference between urban fantasy and low fantasy. Because it is set in our world, but to be urban fantasy maybe it has to be in a big town or in a big city?

KM: [Turns to MN] Is it sufficient if it takes place in a small village?

KB: Maybe in the modern world?

MN: I think urban fantasy also is one of those labels that can be almost anything.

KM: [Smiles]

MN: But mainly I think the label started with being set in New York or London, one of the big cities.

KM and KB: Mm [both KM and KB nod].

MN: And this [points at The Circle], is set in a fictional little town, Engelsfors; which is a very typical kind of Swedish little town, with one industry or something. It is not a huge city at all.

KB: No

[The editor made a cut here]

MN: So, I am thinking that maybe we should round up. We have seen a few common themes now. The use of Nordic mythology, and that it is maybe a bit more realistic in Nordic countries. Do you have a favourite Nordic fantasy writer that we can finish off with?

KM: [Smiles] You know we must not, we at this institute, say anything about…

MN: As a person, not in your role as the most well-read librarians. But in the roles as Kajsa and Karin.

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KM: [Smiles] Let’s try.

KM: [Continues to talk] Can I just say one more thing that I think is a difference between Nordic and non-Nordic authors? That is what you were talking about last year in your speech [points at KB]. Like in dystopian tales from for instance America, there is not so much love. Or maybe there might be love, but the Nordic authors are a little bit more prone to write sex scenes. Do I remember it correct?

KB: Maybe it is the opposite. There is no sex in the American fiction, and a little bit in the Nordic [smiles and laughs].

KM: A little bit, but not…[laughs]

KB: But also, that there are more what we call “criticism of norms”. And they discuss more power structures and gender.

MN: Because that was one of the things that I was talking with Maria Turtschaninoff about in that interview. That all her books are about hierarchical societies, and how to cope with power. And it is like the world she created in her books is sort of a patriarchy, supersized patriarchy in a way, and how to survive it if you are a woman.

KB: All fantasy deals with those questions about power I think.

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KM: I do think it is common in every kind of fantasy these days that they, the protagonists or the persons, are struggling a lot - inside or outside - from boundaries. But in Maria Turtschaninoff’s books these patriarchal systems is being described so deeply and so harsh that you can’t just read it and then leave the book behind. It really makes change for your way of thinking, I think.

MN: Which is, I think, maybe one of the things that makes an author interesting; that they change our ways to think.

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KM: Yes.

MN: So, do you have, maybe not a favourite, but at least a book that you enjoy?

KM: [Smiles and laughs]

KB: [Grabbing some books]

KB: [Hands a book to KM] This one?

KM: Yes, thank you.

MN: And Kajsa, do you have any? Because you also read a lot of these books.

MN: [Continues to talk] And it is not that we are playing favouritism. This might be an interesting book from different perspectives.

KB: I think these are interesting [shows two books].

KB: [Continues to talk] These are for the age six to nine. So quite young children read these. And these are easy to read. Two quite different books. This one, [shows the book Trolldom i Gamla stan] is more like low fantasy, about this orphan boy Jack. And it is set in Stockholm, and everyone have been to Stockholm and can recognize… [hesitates and talks in Swedish: “Hur säger man miljö?”]

MN: The environment.

KB: The environment, yes.

KB: [Continues to talk] And in this book, there is a lot of creatures from Nordic Tales such as trolls, and vättar.

MN: There isn’t a translation for vättar.

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KM: Gnomes maybe?

MN: But they are not really gnomes!

KB: The book is very… [hesitates and talks in Swedish: “Spännande?”]

KM: Exciting.

KB: Exciting, but also very simple.

KB: [Continues to talk and shows the book Tam - tiggarpojken] And this one is more classic fantasy, also for the age six to nine. About Tam, who also is an orphan. And he is also homeless. He is chosen to be a knight and in his mind, he can speak with ; and a new dragon is about to be born.

MN: And that series, I actually have read [points at Tam - tiggarpojken]. I think it is kind of interesting because he meets an old soldier, an old scarred soldier. And it takes a while before you realize: Oh! That is a woman! It is not a man. And she is old and scarred. I think she has lost an eye; really like a grizzly, old bear, but it is a woman.

KB: Yes, I was also surprised by that.

KB: [Continues to talk] And I like the pictures in this one [shows a picture from Tam – tiggarpojken. A picture of a map of a mountain]. And this is the picture of the town where they live. It is built on a mountain. And there are social hierarchies in this town. All the poor people live down here [points at the bottom of the mountain]. And the rich people live up here [points at the top of the mountain].

KM an KB: [Both laugh]

MN: It is kind of equivalent with a map. All fantasy should have a map!

KM: Yes of course!

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KB: [Continues to talk about Tam – tiggarpojken] Very beautiful pictures of the dragons as well.

MN and KM: Mm [Both MN and KM nod].

MN: So, thank you for this conversation!

KM and KB: Thank you!

Reference Nilson, Maria (2017). Conversation about Nordic Fantasy at the Swedish Institute for Children's Literature. Växjö: Linnaeus University, [downloaded online] 2017-07-30. Available from: https://play.lnu.se/media/t/1_g5fz5c2c

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