Edited by Brenda Bell. John Gaventa. and John Peters Myles Horton and Paulo Freire We Make the Road by Walking Conversations on Education and Social Change Temple University Press Philadelphia Temple University Press, Philadelphia 19122 Copyright © 1990 by Highlander Research and Education Cemer All rights reserved Published 1990 Primed in the United States of America The paper used in this publication meets the minimum requirements of American National Standard for Information Sciences-Permanence of Paper for Primed Library Materials, ANSI Z39.48-1984 @) Library of Congress Cataloging in Publication Data Horton, Miles, 1905 We make the road by walking: conversations on education and social change I Myles Horton and Paulo Freire; edited by Brenda Bell,John Gavema, and John Peters. p. cm. Includes bibliographical references. ISB N 0-87722-771-3 I. Education - Philosophy. 2. Social change.. 3. Freire, Paulo, 1921.­ Views on social action. 4. Horton, Myles, 1905.­ Views on social action. 5. Adult education - Social aspects - United States. 6. Education - Social aspects - Brazil. 7. Highlander Folk School (Monteagle, Tenn.) I. Bell, Brenda. II. Gaventa, John, 1949· III. Peters, John Marshall, 1941. IV. Title. LB885·H64W4 1990 374-dc2o 90-36005 Contents Vll Preface Xlll Acknowledgments xv Editors' Introduction CHAPTER 1 Introduction 3 "We make the road by walking" CHAPTER 2 Formative Years 9 "I was always getting in trouble for reading in school" 24 "Reading has to be a loving event" 38 "I couldn't use all this book learning" 55 "I always am in the beginning, as you" 67 "Pockets of hope": Literacy and citizenship CHAPTER 3 Ideas 97 "Without practice there's no knowledge" 102 "Is it possible just to teach biology?" 109 "I've always been ambivalent about charismatic leaders" 115 "The difference between education and orgamzmg" 128 "My expertise is in knowing not to be an expert" 13 1 "My respect for the soul of the culture" 138 "I learned a lot from being a father" CHAPTER 4 Educational Practice 145 "The more the people become themselves, the better the democracy" 163 "Highlander is a weaving of many colors" 180 "Conflicts are the midwife of conciousness" CHAPTER 5 Education and Social Change 199 "You have to bootleg education" 2 15 "The people begin to get their history into their hands, and then the role of education changes" CHAPTER 6 Reflections 227 "Peaks and valleys and hills and hollers" 239 "It's necessary to laugh with the people" 248 Epilogue 25 1 Index Preface Myles Horton and Paulo Freire knew about each other more than twenty years ago. Paulo read part of the growing literature about Myles and Highlander, and Myles read Paulo's early works. Both men explained to their admirers how their ideas were similar and how they were different. The two actually talked with each other for the firsttime in 1973, when asked to partici­ pate in an adult education conference held in Chicago. They met again in similar circumstances in New York and California and at a conference in Nicaragua. But these meetings were for other people and other occa­ sions, affording Myles and Paulo little opportunity to confirm whateach had grown to believe about the other man and his ideas. However, when they met at a con­ ference in California in the summer of 19B7, the time had come for them to talk, to explore ideas, to get to Vll Preface know one another-really know each other. It was also time to let the world in on what each man, whose work was already well known, had to say to each other. Paulo came to Los Angeles to participate in a con­ fe rence in honor of his late wife, Elza. Myles was visiting his daughter there and was convalescing fo llowing an operation for colon cancer. Paulo asked him to consider "speaking a book." Paulo, as people familiar with his writings know, had used this method to get his own ideas into print. Myles, not known for publishing his own ideas, characteristically let go a hearty laugh, per­ haps because he saw the irony of the situation, but more likely because he immediately fe lt the joy that such an experience would bring to both men. Others around them, including Sue Thrasher of Highlander, saw the historical possibilities, and went to work to bring the idea to fruition. Brenda Bell knew of John Peters's interest in bring­ ing Paulo to the University of Te nnessee as a visit­ ing scholar, and through Brenda he learned about Sue's desire to bring Paulo to Highlander. With the help of our colleagues at the university and at High­ lander, financial arrangements were made, tentative travel plans and a schedule were laid on, and anticipa­ tion began to build. Soon a small group of Highlander and university staffmembers began to meet and plan a week of events that would center around conversations between Paulo and Myles. The group planned symposia and classes at the university for students and faculty, and two meet- Vlll Preface ings at Highlander for community activists and other friends of Highlander. Public demand for time with Paulo and Myles was great, but the planners managed to keep the main event intact, and the conversations began. The clear, cool days in early December 19B7 were generous to the mountains around Highlander, allow­ ing participants to converse on the idyllic Highlander hilltop where Myles lived. Paulo particularly enjoyed occasionally gazing through the expansive window to the long, wide view beyond Myles's hearth. They could relax, explore their histories, and feel the texture and depth of each other's experiences as they grew closer as good friends. Their conversations soon became like a dance between old companions accustomed to the subtle leads and responses by one, then the other. Members of the Highlander staffand friends occa­ sionally participated in the conversation, tugging on the dialogue, sometimes clarifying a differencein ideas, sometimes netting an elusive thought in need of illustra­ tion, but never breaking the rhythm of the conversation. Myles, Paulo, and the "third party" conversationalists were recorded on audio tape, the tape was transcribed verbatim, and the long editing process began. As editors, we have worked to give the conversations some structure and have presented them in a series of chapters that are very close to the order in which the themes emerged in the conversations. However, we tried to preserve the subtlety of each man's critique of the other's ideas, the immediacy of their dialogue, the IX Preface occasional discontinuities in conversational themes, the spontaneity of their remarks, and the cognitive leaps re­ vealed in their conversations. We wanted others to feel a part of this remarkable conversation, as we did when we read the transcripts, and to experience what Paulo frequently referred to as the "sensualism of reading, full of feelings, of emotions, of tastes." The book is divided into six chapters, containing sections of conversation that focus on distinct topics. Each section is headed by a quote from the text, chosen by the editors to represent what fo llows and to retain the lyrical quality of the conversation itself. The book is perhaps best read as a series of conversations rather than a tightly structured whole. The "Introduction" contains a discussion between Myles and Paulo about why they decided to speak a book and how they should go about it, setting the tone fo r several days of dialogue that fo llowed. "Formative Years" is about their youth, their families, their cultural settings, and some of their early experiences, such as Myles's work in the Citizenship Schools. This chapter highlights the connection between the men's biogra­ phies and the nature of their experiences and practice. The next chapter is about their ideas, many of which have been shared by Myles and Paulo in other places. For example, they consider whether education can be neutral, how the concept of authority fits into their thinking and practice, their view of charismatic leader­ ship, and what they see as differences between educat­ ing and organizing. This chapter is richly spiced with stories and anecdotes. Many have been told before, but x Prefa ce never as they unfold here in the interaction of the two storytellers. [n "Educational Practice," Myles and Paulo discuss specific features of their work in communities, work­ shops, and classrooms in a variety of cultural settings. They describe the role of the educator, intervention in the learning experiences of others, and the relationship of theory and practice in the context of adult learning. Again, this chapter is amply illustrated with stories and examples, most expressing common ground in the two men's experiences. "Education and Social Change" is at once abstract and filled with concrete examples of the struggles of both men to change systems. Perhaps the clearest di­ vergence of their views is illustrated here, when Paulo and Myles discuss the pros and cons of working from inside systems as opposed to effecting change from out­ side. Examples from Latin America and from North America illustrate the differences in cultural contexts that help account for their different thoughts and strate­ gies. The final chapter, "Reflections," is a look back to the people, literature, and events that influenced their thinking and their work. It includes a sweeping dis­ cussion of broader ideas and worldly matters. This chapter also captures much of what is brilliantly simple about the two men's thinking and how that thinking was shaped by more than one hundred years of combined educational practice. Two years after the conversations took place, Myles and Paulo were reunited at Highlander, where Paulo Xl came to review the manuscript draft and.