Better Governance for Wales Key Materials
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Better Governance for Wales – key material: Statements and Debates, September 2005 – November 2005 Abstract This paper draws together the key statements and debates relating to the White Paper ‘Better Governance for Wales’ from September to November 2005. It includes transcripts of proceedings from the Assembly and Westminster. The paper will be updated regularly by the Members’ Research Service. December 2005 Members’ Research Service / Gwasanaeth Ymchwil yr Aelodau Members’ Research Service: Research Paper Gwasanaeth Ymchwil yr Aelodau: Papur Ymchwil Better Governance for Wales – key material Statements and debates, September 2005 – November 2005 Members’ Research Service December 2005 Paper number: 05/0040/mrs © Crown copyright 2005 Enquiry no: 05/0040/mrs Date: December 2005 This document has been prepared by the Members’ Research Service to provide Assembly Members and their staff with information and for no other purpose. Every effort has been made to ensure that the information is accurate, however, we cannot be held responsible for any inaccuracies found later in the original source material, provided that the original source is not the Members’ Research Service itself. This document does not constitute an expression of opinion by the National Assembly, the Welsh Assembly Government or any other of the Assembly’s constituent parts or connected bodies. Members’ Research Service: Research Paper Gwasanaeth Ymchwil yr Aelodau: Papur Ymchwil Contents 1 Statement by the Rt Hon Rhodri Morgan AM, First Minister on the White Paper, ‘Better Governance for Wales’ during Questions to the First Minister, 20 September 2005 .............................................................................................................. 1 2 Debate on the Report of the Committee on the Better Governance for Wales White Paper in the Assembly, 21 September 2005 ....................................................... 4 3 Responses to Peter Law AM MP’s Parliamentary Questions regarding The White Paper, Better Governance for Wales ................................................................ 22 4 Proceedings of the Welsh Affairs Committee, 18 October 2005: Government White Paper – Better Governance for Wales............................................................... 25 5 Proceedings of the Welsh Affairs Committee, 25 October 2005: Government White Paper – Better Governance for Wales............................................................... 50 6 Proceedings of the Welsh Affairs Committee, 31 October 2005: Government White Paper – Better Governance for Wales............................................................... 73 7 Proceedings of the Welsh Affairs Committee, 10 November 2005: Government White Paper – Better Governance for Wales......................................... 89 8 House of Lords Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform: Sixth Report and Memorandum from the Department of Health on framework powers in the NHS Redress Bill [HL]...................................................... 117 Members’ Research Service: Research Paper Gwasanaeth Ymchwil yr Aelodau: Papur Ymchwil Better Governance for Wales – Key Material: September 2005 – December 2005 1 Statement by the Rt Hon Rhodri Morgan AM, First Minister on the White Paper, ‘Better Governance for Wales’ during Questions to the First Minister, 20 September 2005 National Assembly for Wales, Record of Proceedings, 20 September 2005 Eleanor Burnham: Will you make a statement on the ‘Better Governance for Wales’ White Paper? OAQ0721(FM) The First Minister: The Secretary of State for Wales published the ‘Better Governance for Wales’ White Paper on 15 June 2005. The deadline for receipt of comments on the White Paper by the Wales Office was 16 September. Eleanor Burnham: We have all read this week what Tony Blair apparently thinks of the Welsh. Is that why he does not trust us to write our own Standing Orders? What actions have you taken to ensure that the Assembly can write its own operating rules? The First Minister: You might want to pick away at old scabs by referring to the weekend newspaper story; I certainly do not. The last-resort power, which the Secretary of State, practically speaking, needs to have in case we cannot come to an agreement on writing our own Standing Orders, is a good incentive for us to come together and agree our Standing Orders on a cross-party basis. I believe that we will be able to do that, in which case the last-resort power will not be required. The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives (Nick Bourne): In light of the response that the First Minister has just given, is he stating that the Secretary of State simply has a reserve power in the event of our not being able to agree our Standing Orders? Is it the case that we are able to go forward and agree our Standing Orders and that this is only a reserve power? That is not as I understood it. The First Minister: The Secretary of State has no wish to set our Standing Orders. He wants us to do it, I want us to do it, and I am sure that every Assembly Member wants us to do it. Nick Bourne: Was that a ‘yes’, then? It is being left to us and he will only come in if we cannot agree on it? The First Minister: That is roughly the understanding that I have, yes. Nick Bourne: If we could cross out ‘roughly’ and say that that is the case, I think that everybody would be happy, but that is not the way that it has been reported. It was reported that he was taking the power and that it was not coming to the Assembly. That is the way in which it is written in the White Paper. Is the First Minister saying that that is now not the intention and that he is only there as a longstop if we cannot agree our Standing Orders? The First Minister: That is correct. 1 Members’ Research Service: Research Paper Gwasanaeth Ymchwil yr Aelodau: Papur Ymchwil The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group (Michael German): I will look at another aspect of ‘Better Governance for Wales’. The Welsh people were used as the guinea pig for council tax rebanding and your colleagues in London have clearly decided that the experiment did not lead to better governance, or even lower bills, for Wales. It is a case of better governance for Wales, but better not for England. I also notice that they are hoping to improve police governance by reducing the number of police forces in Wales. Do you think that having a single police force for an area from Haverfordwest to Hawarden in the north will improve accountability for the people of Wales? The First Minister: If you want to resist Kirsty Williams’s leadership challenge, the fewer references to guinea pigs that you make the better, Mike. As regards the point about police forces, there are many ways in which you could improve the efficiency of the police force in Wales. There are shared service centres for dealing with pay and rations and paying suppliers. There are interoperable control centres with fire and ambulance services, similar to that in Carmarthen and possibly going even further. There are issues about joint operations, such as Operation Tarian, which includes three of the forces, although not north Wales for operational reasons, to combat organised crime and, in particular, drug gangs. There are many different ways in which you can do this. One option is to have a single police force, but, given the sharp differences between rural and urban Wales, that would have to take into account how you achieve the right level of democratic accountability to cover the different circumstances of urban and rural Wales. I am pretty sure that we are in for a period of some kind of instability. I do not think that no change is an option, but there are lots of possibilities here. That is why Edwina Hart has written to Janice Gregory, as the Chair of the Social Justice and Regeneration Committee, to ask her to initiate a study on all these different factors that I have just illustrated. However, I think that this issue will run and run for a considerable time in England and Wales. Michael German: This is obviously important for us in Wales, given that the Assembly and the council tax payers in Wales pay half of the bills for our police service. Nowhere in the reports that have been going to the Home Secretary have I heard mention that the National Assembly will be a consultee and will be informed and involved in decisions about Welsh police forces. Can you give me two assurances: that the National Assembly will have a full debate on this matter and a discussion about the future of our police forces, and that those views will be taken to any discussion about the future of our services in Wales, and that you will ensure that we have a debate with you about the issues around the future governance of Wales in the new Bill that the Government is proposing, and whether or not powers over police funding and interests should be transferred to the National Assembly? The First Minister: You are right that police funding substantially comes from us. Sometimes it is a one-off, as was the case with Operation Tarian; sometimes it is through the revenue support grant and the precepting system. Of course, the threat of capping, in terms of police authorities, is a matter for Sue Essex and not for John Prescott, David Miliband or the Home Secretary. I can assure you that there has been consultation. We are only at the early stages. The report was presented and said that you do not want a force with less than 4,000 officers in the middle of the week. On the day that it was published, Charles Clarke spoke to Edwina Hart to lay out what was coming. Therefore, there is consultation at this early stage, and that is why Edwina has set the ball rolling for the Assembly to be democratically involved through the Social Justice and Regeneration Committee.