KITTY CAPARELLA LAURA SCHWARTZ ellist —artist, musician, educa- tor, collaborator, improviser—has been a musi- C cal idol of mine since I "rst heard him perform, Field Music, 2019 in 1989, at the Davies Symphony Hall in my hometown Yellow, gray, and cream encaustic paint-stick on wood, 12 x 12 in. A COVID-19 of San Francisco, California. That evening, I watched the Consort, Friesen’s artistic home for over four Conversation decades, perform with the Russian folk ensemble the Dmitri Pokrovsky Ensemble: American contemporary meets Rus- in B Minor sian traditional folk, in what could only be described as a supernatural metamorphosis of sound. An interview with I can still vividly recall seeing the consort members, Eu- gene Friesen on stage right in front of me, as they watched Eugene Friesen their Russian collaborators, colorful in their traditional peasant regalia, #ow down the aisles from the back of the music hall and onto the stage to join them—swirling, throat singing, smashing tambourines, clanging "nger cymbals, mixing all forms of percussion wildly and raucously with the consort’s smooth, contemporary jazz tones of saxophone, piano, cello, and drums. The consort members themselves appeared as trans"xed as I was: in this transcendent mo- ment, shared between performers and audience, the music itself was the star. COVID-19 led me to Friesen’s virtual door. I wanted to know what his work brought to him at this moment in time where every profession—and most profoundly, the perform- ing arts—had been leveled and brought to its knees. I want- ed to talk with him about what mattered most to him at this time and how his relationship to his music has prepared him for one of the most unanticipated crises in human history. The following interview took place via Zoom in May 2020, as both Friesen and I were locked down in the "rst COVID-19 shelter-in-place mandate, he in his home of- "ce in Boston, Massachusetts, and I in mine, in San Francisco, California.

*** LAURA SCHWARTZ: Eugene, I have followed your career for a very long time, and I’m aware that you are not only a brilliant, classically trained cellist, you are also a master of both collaboration and improvisation. Those two skills, collaboration and improvisation, seem linked in a way I can’t extricate from one another, but I’m hoping you’ll educate me on that today.

CATAMARAN 71 EUGENE FRIESEN: Well, I’d love to—I’d love to be art in particular, is to explore the options as opposed to LS: Is it that you might trust that it’s not right, but not EF: That’s right. able to put that in a bottle. [laughs] getting attached to any option early on. And that’s actually necessarily the reason your collaborator has suggested? a really painful lesson to learn. LS: What about when you join a collaboration of musi- LS: The "rst question I want to ask you is: What have At the beginning of my career, when I was collabo- EF: Exactly. cians, say, the Paul Winter Consort, where you’re not nec- been the central and de"ning elements of the collabora- rating with people who were much more experienced essarily improvising but are performing established pieces. tive process that you’ve discovered and developed over than me, I really experienced a rejection of a creative LS: Well, I think we’ve just segued to the next question: Would the elements that make it possible for you to have thirty, forty years? idea as something very personal, something that really, What makes it possible for you to work with another musi- a satisfying improvisation be the same in a collaboration really shook me. Getting attached to any one thing, and cian? And speci"cally, in close collaboration? What are of this kind, or would they be different? EF: I suppose, at the very basis of it, one thing that every- especially beginning to see that idea as some re#ection of the differences in improvisation versus collaboration? Or thing has in common is just the listening that’s required a precious part of yourself that needs protecting, that’s just are they the same in terms of what allows you to work EF: I think the biggest one, certainly in collaboration, is to do any kind of collaboration or improvisation. I’d say a kind of madness. Which, thank goodness, I believe I’ve with another? going in with the kind of positive attitude that we are going it’s kind of two-headed: listening and not knowing. gotten over, but it took a long time. to be successful at doing this, however we de"ne that. And The listening is something we musicians should be EF: A collaboration is very often kind of a goal-oriented also, that what I have to offer will be shaped by what the masters of, because, of course, music is all about that. But LS: Were there things that helped you to let go of that? situation. And so it’s helpful to have a clearly de"ned goal. people around me have to offer, and what I have to offer even in music, people can hear without really listening. I say “clearly,” but nothing is clear in my line of work. But will be in#uenced by the context that the group is creating. In other words, you’re taking in the sound waves, and they EF: Yeah. Humor is the best thing, and to work with you could say for example, “We want it to be six minutes So, the group really does have “credit” for the unfold- are hitting your ears, but it’s our own processes, our inner people whom you basically like, whom you basically love. long. We want to include these instruments. And this is ing of a piece of art. And I’ve done this just one-on-one processes, that could become so deafening that it really And that way there can be humor in the absurdity. I think the title I’m going for, this the image I’m going for.” And with another artist, I’ve done this with the trios I’ve played makes it almost impossible for us to really take in what’s that has helped tremendously. As well as, in the case of sometimes that’s enough. So to have some agreed-upon with, done this with the Consort, and then I’ve done this actually happening in the room. So that is the "rst thing music, you generally recognize when something is really starting point is really helpful. also with dancers—with large companies, with a dozen to learn, that kind of open and deep listening. working, or not. There are lots of different ideas, but with And a kind of mutual respect, I think, is hugely im- dancers and three or four musicians and a director and music, it seems like it becomes fairly clear to the collab- portant. But that doesn’t really have to do with having choreographer. The collaboration can happen with a large LS: And are there things that you’ve learned to do to orative process and to the individual, if you’re open to it, a respect for your collaborator’s résumé, necessarily, or their number of people, but I think the only commonality is that support that? what’s really working and what isn’t. accomplishments. Because I "nd I can get there with my you’re going to offer things from your own experience that There’s no hard-and-fast rule for what works and what students, who, on the face of it, don’t really have the kind may in#uence the #ow of other people’s work, rather than EF: Well, I don’t think so; I think it just comes through doesn’t. Otherwise we’d all be super#uous. In the process, of credibility that a more established artist might have. And be a speci"c solution in any design challenge. a lot of trial and error. It comes through the kind of dis- where you really don’t know how it’s going to turn out, yet I "nd that’s a place that’s easy for me to slip into, even comfort that happens when you’ve become attached to generally it’s the music itself that speaks to you at a certain when it’s with a little kid—and I’ve had some surprising im- LS: I’d like to apply that to considering improvisation any one thing that you expect, or any idea that you bring point. provs with little kids, kids who can barely play their instru- again. When you’re talking about meeting in a collabora- to a forum. It seems like the greater the expectation that ments but have this kind of spark in their eye and they’re tive realm where what you’re bringing is not the piece or you bring into a situation, the greater the discomfort that LS: And have you found in your collaborations that when really listening, they’re really paying attention. They may the composition, but, instead, the in#uence of individual can arise from that, if you’re really in the creative situation it’s speaking to you, it’s also speaking to your collaborators? be scared to death, but they’re responding re#exively and collaborators upon a collective execution—how would and mutually committed to coming up with alternatives. in a very spontaneous way that’s so refreshing. you describe the difference in an improvisation? EF: Yeah, I think that’s what I’m saying. And, just as you LS: That seems so important. So, in your own experience, said that, there was something that came to mind: Some- LS: So, it sounds like you’re talking about you and your EF: Well, I suppose it’s a bit of the difference between what did you have to do to get out of your own way? times, with one of my collaborators—somebody who re- collaborator going to a place where you meet together at composition and improvising . . . maybe that’s a good ally wants to intellectualize everything immediately—I a deeper level with something that’s numinous. metaphor. With composition, they say composition is EF: Well, I call it discomfort, but I mean, I really suffered. really "nd that dif"cult. Somebody who says, “No, that just really slow improvising. And improvising is really fast Especially early on. And I think there are reasons for that, doesn’t work because. . . .” I know, myself, that it doesn’t EF: Beautifully said. Exactly. composing. Because when you’re improvising, you know things that I had to learn about the process, that I had to work, it doesn’t sound right, and it might take me a min- you’re on the edge, and you’re making decisions that learn about myself. Part of that, for me, came down to not ute to "gure things out for myself. But if somebody gives LS: But with improvisation then, we’re not talking are "nal decisions in the #ow of that musical statement. really believing in myself deeply enough to be detached me a reason that it doesn’t work, then I’m a little suspi- about something that’s been contained by a starting and Whereas in composition, you have the possibility of ex- from any idea that would come through my mind. cious of it, for some reason. ending point. ploring a lot of options along the way and making these I think one thing that I’ve learned, in terms of creating decisions in slow time.

72 Laura Schwartz CATAMARAN 73 And very often, collaboration feels much more like that— LS: And how did you feel about the "nal choices, the and it’s taken me a long time to really understand the bril- many of us stick with this unreasonable path for a whole where we can approach a similar design challenge, day after elements that were used, the order and the narrative liance of producers. long life. day after day, and just generate pages and pages full of op- they created? At the beginning of my career, I really felt like I was But essentially, I’ve just come to realize recently that in tions for that, and decide nothing! And then we come back the most educated musician in the room. I had my music the whole thing about being in the zone, really, what we’re two weeks later and suddenly one of those solutions seems EF: Well, I thought it was very, very effective. Being part degree; I have a very complete training in the classics. And talking about is this kind of non-duality. I think it kind of obvious in the context of the work that we’ve done later. of a large team like that, that was one example where so going into a pop or folk or kind of a situation, all comes down to that. I can’t remember ever feeling insulted that an idea was I had this kind of in#ated sense of myself from my training, LS: Oh, that’s interesting . . . not paid attention to or followed through. I seemed to I think, that made it dif"cult for me to really hear what LS: So, what did you stop knowing, when did you stop have very little ego attachment to any step of the way, and people were going for and suggesting. knowing it, and when did you feel "nally—you said, “I EF: That’s happened a lot in the theater and dance it made the whole thing just tremendously enjoyable. It wasn’t always easy, but now it’s easy. Because now was able to do it because I "nally knew I didn’t know any- world, particularly. I can go in, and I realize I don’t know anything. I don’t thing.” When did that happen? At what point did it seem LS: It seems that not only do you not have an ego attach- know anything most of the time—I really don’t. The less to be more that you don’t know and what happened to LS: Can you give me an example of one of those exper- ment to an idea, you also don’t have an ego attachment to you know, the better off you are. lead you there? iences? a speci"c aesthetic! LS: So what’s the difference between you, who knows so EF: Well, when I was a teenager, how about this—let’s go EF: Well, I’m remembering I worked on this theater EF: Well, I’m not sure about that, because I guess it’s how little now after forty years of a professional musical career, back a little . . . I had a dream one night. I dreamt that piece called The Garden of Earthly Delights, which was you would de"ne aesthetic. and myself, who’s played my instrument for a year and I was in heaven. And I was in this kind of darkened, sacred a kind of a dance and music illustration of this Hierony- In a situation like this, the aesthetic, in a way, was knows so little? space. And there was music there that I was part of, but mus Bosch triptych that maybe you’ve seen, which is just prede"ned by who was involved with it. So, we had people there was nobody clearly playing the music, it was simply fantastic. We worked for months on this, mostly in Con- with very speci"c points of view and very speci"c abilities. EF: Yeah, good question. Like I said, I’ve had really suc- an extension of being in the dream. And at that point, as necticut in the barn of the choreographer, Martha Clarke. For example, I play the cello. So, if suddenly Martha cessful improvs with people who just started playing their a teenager, I loved playing music, but it was also very, very It was the process of meeting every day for six to eight had said, “Cello, now we’re going to use a Stratocaster—I instruments. And in some sense, they’re way ahead of us challenging and a bit frustrating—it just didn’t come the hours and just jamming on different parts of the painting, want nothing but a B. B. King thing in here and I don’t because they’re just responding re#exively and they’re not way that I wanted it to most of the time. initially, just taking one single seed and, “Let’s just ex- know about cello.” I mean, that would be an aesthetic trying to remember anything, they’re just in the moment So that was a dream that kind of was ful"lled, in about plore that; let’s lift that out. What does it look like? What choice that obviously wouldn’t have worked for me. in this special way. $%&'—well, exactly November of $%&'—when Paul Winter are those characters? Who are they? What do they sound set me up in the Cathedral of Saint John the Divine in like?” Just, “What is this?” LS: Right. But I mean something like, “This phrase that LS: That’s so interesting. What you’re talking about is an with one of my good buddies in the consort, We did this for weeks. And Martha had this big book Eugene took, it’s a great idea, but we’re going to take that important principle in my own line of work. Psychoana- Paul Halley, who happened to be the cathedral organist of empty pages and she just started at the beginning and out.” Or, “Play the cello more quietly,” or, “Let’s really wrap lyst Wilfred Bion said, “The purest form of listening is to and a wonderful pianist. And he just kind of set us loose kept track of a lot of different ideas. This was in the time it up here.” I mean, those are aesthetic, artistic decisions listen without memory or desire.” I feel like you’re talking to play in the cathedral. I had brought some sketches of before any of us had phones that we could use to record that, from a collective standpoint, or, as you said, from a hi- about that, that there isn’t a sense that you’re looking for things I wanted to try and some compositions, but it was stuff; this was in the mideighties, I guess. So that was the erarchical standpoint, might be made by whoever is direct- something, you’re just completely present. really Paul Winter who said, “Look, why don’t you guys just way that things were recorded, just by jotting it down. The ing. But does it ever seem to your own aesthetic, “That’s an try doing some noodling, just do some improvising, just musicians in the group would make notations and record unfortunate choice,” or “That’s not the right way”? EF: I think that’s exactly where we’re going. Because you to loosen up.” And we started doing this, and it absolutely things on our cassette players. know, I’ve heard great improvising musicians speak of be- took #ight. And that session became my debut album, New But that was a situation where the initial part of the EF: That has happened so many times. Almost every ing “in the zone.” Have you ever heard that expression? Friend. It was an album of duets of cello and keyboard. work was generative, just generating stuff. And then later, time. This is so common, Laura. it took on a sensibility, in this case a kind of hierarchical LS: Oh, yes. LS: I own that album, yes. structure that the director would go through and select LS: Say more about that, because I think it’s something some of these things. And something that might be a fan- we don’t often tolerate very well. EF: And having experienced that, I know what that feels EF: That is complete, free improvisation, that whole al- tastic single tableau may not necessarily be effective in like, where you just feel like you could do nothing wrong. bum—there was nothing planned on that recording at the longer #ow that develops. So there are a lot of ideas EF: Right. I mean, that is a characteristic of almost every It’s just, you’re not playing the music, you are the mu- all—it was all just jammed down. I realized later that and concepts that we came up with that were ultimately recording session I’ve ever done. And I’ve had a chance to sic: it is absolutely #ying out of you. And those moments that was a kind of ful"llment of that dream that I’d had not used. work with some who I think are really brilliant producers, are rare, and beautiful, and I think are the reason that as a teenager. And it’s an experience I think about a lot,

74 Laura Schwartz CATAMARAN 75 because it was a breakthrough moment for me that had to And so, an experience on the road can be very, very to get closer together. And I’m particularly intrigued with EF: This is what I’ve been asking myself since that expe- do with the acoustics of the cathedral and the fact that it intimate, where you’re with people all day long and then how to use this for teaching. rience in the cathedral in $%&'. How do you get better was in the middle of the night—because the cathedral is working with them in the evening and sharing meals and at getting into that zone? And, for me, the answer has open to the public during the day—and probably the fact traveling, etc. But then at the end of that, we all go off to LS: What do you feel your students need to know, in this two parts. that we had these fantastic chocolate truf#es that Paul our separate lives; we each have families, we each have particular moment in human history? From your perspec- One is what I call rigor, which is, again, knowing your Halley brought. So, we were basically drugged! [laughs] other work that we do. We have our own creative projects tive, what do we all need to become good at, in order to craft: knowing all your keys, doing your chords, arpeggiat- But there was something very otherworldly about this and experiences and so the space has been incredibly im- make it through this challenging time? ing, playing in different time signatures, studying music experience, of being in this amazing space, with an acous- portant also. from all over the world, for the beauty and diversity that it tic that just seemed to take the sound and turn it into EF: Well, one thing that I often think about is the kind offers. Understanding it. something like I’d never quite heard before. Honestly, it’s LS: How has this event that we’re all in, the CO- of model in science, or in any kind of design challenge, And then the second part of it is surrender. So that like listening to the music shape itself. And the music is VID-$% pandemic, changed your collaborative and where you’re looking at a problem and you bring to it when you actually sit down and go into that music-making just talking and going in the direction where it wants to go, improvisational life? a whole wealth of training and insight from looking at mode, you’re not remembering the things you studied; and you’re simply staying out of the way—this is how it feels. other problems. Part of your methods, part of your train- you’re simply embodying the things that you are. I had no real preparation for improvisation at that level. EF: I’m actually loving it. I’m so happy to be home. So ing, is to examine that situation from every possible angle, My students are sick of me saying, “You are what you I’ve never again experienced anything so profound as that, happy to be home. I’m really loving this. I’m usually gone from above and from the side and from behind and from eat,” because so much a part of what we play is derived and something that really created a kind of communication at least a hundred nights a year, so this is just fantastic. below, and to understand it thoroughly. I don’t know from what we listen to. And our experiences as auditory and a beauty that just could not be explained. [laughs] I might not have loved it when I was thirty-"ve, where I heard this, it’s a quote that I think goes something beings are so profound, from even before we’re born—we but I’m sure loving it now. like, “You can’t solve a problem on the same level that you have this incredible treasure chest of a vocabulary and LS: That’s very moving. How has it changed things? I’m doing more home- understand a problem.” Have you ever heard that? emotional associations with sound that is very, very deep. You’ve worked with Paul Winter and the consort for studio production now, just things that seem to come out So, the rigor part of it helps me to identify what I’m decades. What were the elements of working with them of me, and just posting them on my social sites for free. LS: I have, but like you, I don’t know where . . . hearing and to integrate it. And for me, in particular, un- that made it possible for you to stay engaged as long as I’m really enjoying that and learning a lot in the process. derstanding music has been a hugely important part of you have been? There’s almost daily learning in terms of technology EF: I don’t know, either. We should "nd out. Because my learning it. and software and stuff like that. I’ve always liked it—this I know that when I’m working on a piece of music, I can Many of my students, just as an aside, are so much EF: I think probably the major part of it is that it’s rela- has been just great fun to be home and to have the time explore a long menu list of possible solutions, ideas for better at music, just because they don’t need to understand tively unstructured—the relationships and the work. It’s to really dig deep into these things. how a certain musical challenge could be solved, what it as intellectually as I have had to in order to play beauti- a team of people, consistently, that I’ve really been drawn I’ve really enjoyed the teaching, because we "nished instrument should be played, whether it needs to have fully and feel it integrated into themselves. And I really to personally. The musicians that Paul chooses, out of his the spring semester at Berklee College online, and I found a different accompaniment, whether the counterpoint is envy musicians like that—I’m not that way. I’m somebody taste in people, are just fantastic. There’s this great sense that that took probably three times the amount of time. It’s too active, maybe the harmony is too rich . . . there are who has to really understand it and study it from many, of humor, of learning, of diverse experiences. Paul’s love strangely exhausting, working in this format. And I feel like so many different options. And you can explore all these many different angles and live with it. And then even- for percussion has really brought some colors, sounds, tex- I just need to be very, very prepared just to "ll the airspace, kinds of different things, but it’s not really until you go for tually, through grace, these things come out as musical tures, and traditions from all over the world. And with like some kind of news anchor or something like that. And a walk, or stand under some warm water, or just wake up expression. each of those, it’s seemed to bring something a little bit I’m also really looking for ways to pull people in, to make in the morning and suddenly, the answer’s simply there— different out of the cello. it participatory, which can be tricky. it is just, simply, there, and it is nothing that was arrived LS: That is such an eloquent appreciation of diversity. So, in that way, it’s always been a journey of discovery, I’ve really resigned myself to the fact that this is the at strategically or intellectually. It is just, you understand That’s really very beautiful. getting together and having these new elements, slightly medium that we’re working in right now, so I "nd my- the problem, and then somehow, intentionally or not, you What do you need to leave us with, in terms of what different colors, different fragrances, that would trigger self challenged every day to create something that can be got out of the way so that the problem could unravel itself you know and what you dream of? What do the young something new out of the instrument, something new cre- meaningful in this forum. and it comes to your awareness somehow. people, who are going to be left with the responsibility of atively out of the collaboration. It really helps just to gather the community in a cer- So, how do we get good at that? Again, I think the hint making it through the next hundred years, need to know? Another important ingredient, I think, is the space tain way, to relate in this way. I can’t imagine what this is looking at things like non-duality, looking at things like that’s been built into our relationship. You know, as much experience would have been like twenty years ago, before meditation. EF: What your question reminds me of is something as we love being together, and we have a great time, I think we had this amazing ability to sit at home and really have I struggled with a lot early on in my college teaching. we’re all of us, and maybe every musician is, really accus- a conversation like you and I are having. And more than LS: What pieces of learning have been most important in I used to get tremendously invested in people’s progress. tomed to having a kind of solitary practice. that, to really relate and to get deeper into the relationship, how you comprehend a problem? And also, I think I must have seen their progress as some

76 Laura Schwartz CATAMARAN 77 kind of re#ection on me, somehow. Thank goodness, KITTY CAPARELLA I stopped doing that at some point. What I realized is that, really, all I can do is to model Escaping, 2020 my own relationship with music, and with people. I feel Reds, copper, and German pewter encaustic paint-stick on wood, 12 x 12 in . like I can really engage with enthusiasm. This is just a gift, to sit down with somebody and feel, honestly, enthusiasm for the material that you’re covering. And I’ve come to realize that that’s the best I can do. What do they need to know? I think what they need to know is how to let go, how to be comfortable not know- ing. Because that’s another aspect of meditation and non- duality that I think has so much to teach us. To become aware of what we’re expecting and to become aware of this kind of very tender place inside of us that is really clinging to some sense of certainty as a way of "nding some safety and hope, and is so scared to realize that it’s completely just made up. But if you can do that, if you can let go, and if you can really breathe into not knowing, it’s actually where the best music comes from. In the case of music, it’s an easy and obvious metaphor: that’s where the best stuff comes from.

LS: Very sweet, thank you, Eugene. This has been a re- ally wonderful conversation. A beacon of light in this oth- erwise dark time. Thank you so much.

EF: I appreciate so much the opportunity to speak like this with you, Laura. Thank you.

Eugene Friesen is active internationally as a cellist, composer, recording artist, and teacher. He has performed on six conti- nents as a soloist and with the Grammy Award–winning Paul Winter Consort. Friesen is an artist in residence at the Cathe- dral of Saint John the Divine in New York City and on faculty at the in Boston, Massachusetts.

Laura Schwartz is a psychotherapist, writer, filmmaker, and facilitator. She lives and works in Northern California.

78 Laura Schwartz