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Clickjacking Security Now! Transcript of Episode #168 Page 1 of 18 Transcript of Episode #168 ClickJacking Description: Steve and Leo discuss yet another challenge to surfing safely in the web world: Known as "ClickJacking," or more formally as "UI Redressing," this class of newly popular threats tricks web users into performing web-based actions they don't intend by leading them to believe they are doing something else entirely. High quality (64 kbps) mp3 audio file URL: http://media.GRC.com/sn/SN-168.mp3 Quarter size (16 kbps) mp3 audio file URL: http://media.GRC.com/sn/sn-168-lq.mp3 INTRO: Netcasts you love, from people you trust. This is TWiT. Leo Laporte: Bandwidth for Security Now! is provided by AOL Radio at AOL.com/podcasting. This is Security Now! with Steve Gibson, Episode 168 for October 30, 2008: Clickjacking. It's time for Security Now!, the show where we cover everything you'd ever want to know about security. And we do it with a guy who is the king, really, as far as I'm concerned, the man who discovered spyware, named spyware, wrote some of the most used security utilities out there, including ShieldsUP!, Mr. Steve Gibson of GRC.com. Hi, Steve. Steve Gibson: Yes, in fact sometimes we're discussing things that you'd rather wish weren't the case. I mean... Leo: Well, lately it's been kind of bleak because it's like, there's bad stuff, and there doesn't really seem like there's any cure. Steve: Yes, that's true. I mean, because what we're beginning to see now is that the technologies we rely on fundamentally are really being exploited. I mean, what we're going to talk about today, clickjacking, is very much like that. The good news is there are things now that people can do. Firefox users are essentially completely protected by recent updates to NoScript. But we'll talk about all that, and also about some, well, there's lots of news in the last week since... Security Now! Transcript of Episode #168 Page 2 of 18 Leo: Lots of security. Steve: Yeah, since 167, so... Leo: So let's get an update on what's been going on in the world of security, Steve Gibson. Steve: Well, it's funny. Microsoft put out an out-of-cycle patch. Leo: Last week. Steve: Yeah. And I picked up a little blurb in GRC's newsgroups. Some people were saying, do you think Microsoft deliberately does this after Steve and Leo record the podcast, you know, like the moment after it's been recorded and before it actually goes public? Because this dropped out at exactly that time. It is substantially different than, or more of a problem in some ways than [audio dropout] referring to it during the Tech Guy stuff over the weekend when you were talking about it. Because this is not a user goes to a bad website with their browser sort of problem. Leo: Oh, I misunderstood it, then. Steve: Yeah, it is like one of the old-style, packet arrives at your computer... Leo: It's a worm, okay. Steve: Yes. Leo: Oh, I didn't know that, okay. Steve: Yes, yes. It runs - it's an exploit in the RPC service that runs in all versions of Windows. It affects Windows 2000, XP, and Server 2003. The architecture of Vista, the updated security architecture mitigates the problem. But it's... Leo: Mitigates or eliminates? Steve: Mitigates. It's reduced from critical to important on those platforms. Leo: So why? Is that because UAC pops up and says something's trying to access your system, or... Security Now! Transcript of Episode #168 Page 3 of 18 Steve: It's the nature of the way they're running the service. The service that is exploitable, the remote procedure call, RPC service, it's sort of sandboxed so that it's not able to do as much damage as it can under 2000 and XP. But, okay. So this is a - basically it's the service which is always lit, is always running and open and listening for things coming in on ports 139 and 445. That's the traditional Windows filesharing ports. You know, file and printer sharing and other things. So many things have happened to mitigate this being a problem, which is why, you know, I didn't immediately find, track you down and say, Leo, we've got to immediately alert our users to it. Microsoft had to do the responsible thing, and call this critical, and push an out-of-cycle patch. Leo: And that's because there were websites already taking advantage of this; right? There were sites out there that... Steve: No, it's not websites. But the way they discovered... Leo: Oh, there were worms floating around. Steve: Yes. The way they discovered it was that - and I'm not sure who it was. It wasn't Microsoft. It was somebody else who saw some suspicious traffic on the 'Net, like packets arriving to 139 or 445. And they looked at them thinking, hmm, what is this packet trying to do? This is trying to do something strange. Well, turns out it was attempting to exploit this vulnerability that was not known. So this was a zero-day exploit, meaning that it was discovered in the wild, I mean, for the first time. And so... Leo: And I saw that a security service within two hours of Microsoft's release was able to reverse engineer it. Steve: Yes. Leo: Immunize or something like that? Steve: Yes. There was immediately a proof of concept. And now there are active worms. And the exploits have been moved into some of the security toolkits that exist. So this thing exists now. Now, setting back - so, okay. Once upon a time, when we had Windows 2000 that did not have a built-in firewall, or we had Windows XP before Service Pack 2, which did have a firewall, but it was not on by default, that was the era where we had the Nimda and the Code Red and Blaster worms. Leo: Right, and Zotob, too. So is this like those? Steve: Yes. This is as bad as those. Except that the world has changed so much since then because Service Pack 2, of course, turned the firewall on by default. And so many people are behind routers that block incoming traffic by default. And one of the other things that Microsoft has done is that they've limited, by default, file and printer sharing to your local network. So those services are not being offered out on the whole Internet Security Now! Transcript of Episode #168 Page 4 of 18 itself. If you look in the details of file and printer sharing and the server service, inherently they said, wait a minute, it makes no sense, unless someone's nuts and wants to make their C drive available on the whole Internet, it only makes sense to have that available on the local network. So there is local network topology. However, the concern is that, if something got into an Intranet that is behind either a home or small office firewall or in a corporate network, then potentially it could - this would allow things to spread between machines within a network. So that was really where the concern was, is essentially, you know, you're behind the router, you're behind the firewalls, you're in a local environment where you might have trust among machines. This potentially abuses that trust because there you would have a scenario where you might, for example, have available file and printer sharing among machines, and this can exploit - essentially it's a classic buffer overflow on the stack in this remote procedure call service running on all Windows machines by default. So it was bad, but it didn't just go wild on the outside because Microsoft has, since the era of those worms, they've done many things like limiting the scope of the network where file and printer sharing was available to the local network. And having a firewall turned on and having those ports blocked and so forth. Leo: Well, it's really an example of the success, in fact, of Microsoft's improved security policies that what would have been a big deal was nothing. Steve: Right. Leo: Yet they still put out the patch. I guess that's because there are still people who are not running firewalls. Steve: Well, that and there is the scenario of local exploitation. Leo: Oh, internal, inside the network. Steve: Right. And so I think that was what really motivated them to do it now rather than wait three weeks for the next second Tuesday of November, when they could have certainly fixed it. It also demonstrates... Leo: That actually makes sense. Steve: It also demonstrates how quickly they can act if they really want to. I've criticized them often for, like, having bad problems that they have known about for six months before they do something. And it's like, okay, clearly when they want to do something, they can fix something really fast. Leo: Yeah. I think I got another one this week. But maybe that was just some of my machines didn't get updated earlier. There wasn't another one this week, was there? Security Now! Transcript of Episode #168 Page 5 of 18 Steve: No. Leo: Okay. That's probably what the other machine is doing.
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