T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T
R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L
P R O C E E D I N G S
D A A L T Y N
HANSARD
Douglas, Tuesday, 15th January 2019
All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website:
www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard
Supplementary material provided subsequent to a sitting is also published to the website as a Hansard Appendix. Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.
Volume 136, No. 5
ISSN 1742-2256
Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2019 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
Present:
The President of Tynwald (Hon. S C Rodan)
In the Council: The Attorney General (Mr J L M Quinn QC), Miss T M August-Hanson, Mr D C Cretney, Mr T M Crookall, Mr R W Henderson, Mrs M M Maska, Mrs K A Lord-Brennan, Mrs J P Poole-Wilson and Mrs K Sharpe with Mrs J Corkish, Third Clerk of Tynwald.
In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. J P Watterson) (Rushen); The Chief Minister (Hon. R H Quayle) (Middle); Mr J R Moorhouse and Hon. G D Cregeen (Arbory, Castletown and Malew); Hon. A L Cannan and Mr T S Baker (Ayre and Michael); Hon. C C Thomas and Mrs C A Corlett (Douglas Central); Miss C L Bettison and Mr C R Robertshaw (Douglas East); Hon. D J Ashford and Mr G R Peake (Douglas North); Hon. W M Malarkey (Douglas South); Mr M J Perkins and Mrs D H P Caine (Garff); Hon. R K Harmer and Hon. G G Boot (Glenfaba and Peel); Mr W C Shimmins (Middle); Mr R E Callister (Onchan); Dr A J Allinson and Mr L L Hooper (Ramsey); Hon. L D Skelly (Rushen); with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.
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Business transacted
Leave of absence granted ...... 543 Congratulations to Mrs Maska (formerly Mrs Hendy) on her recent marriage and Miss Bettison on her recent engagement ...... 543 1. Papers laid before the Court ...... 544 Bills for signature ...... 546 2. Questions for Oral Answer...... 546 1. Cycle to Work Scheme – Amount allocated by Government ...... 546 2. Cycle to Work Scheme – Usage and ownership of bicycles ...... 547 3. Employed Person’s Allowance – Numbers of claimants ...... 548 4. Single-use plastics – Advice in schools ...... 549 5. Free school meals – Initiatives to review support to schools ...... 551 Questions 6, 9, 17 and 18 deferred ...... 553 7. Manx produce – Local retailers and restaurants ...... 554 8. UNESCO Biosphere status – Feedback received from recent visitors to Island ...... 557 10. Mental health crisis team – Refusal to attend Police Headquarters ...... 559 11. Speech and language therapy – Significant reduction in schools ...... 560 12. Vulnerable people in custody – Policies and procedures review ...... 565 13. Pepper spray use by Police – Rules re vulnerable persons; appropriate circumstances ...... 566 14. Lone parents – Income Support and Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 566 15. Employed Person’s Allowance – ‘Severely disabled’ definition ...... 567 16. New £1 coin – Isle of Man’s own design ...... 568 19. Speech and language therapy – Impact of lack of interventions in schools on teachers and children ...... 570 20. Income Tax regime – Ensuring fairness and transparency ...... 572 21. Employed Person’s Allowance – Department data held...... 573 22. Single parents’ limited working hours – Data held by Treasury ...... 574 23. Employed Person’s Allowance and Income Support – Department data held; sufficient flexible work available ...... 575 24. Treasury consultation – Publishing of response; allotted time for Members to review 582
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Announcement of Royal Assent – Abortion Reform Act 2019; European Union and Trade Act 2019; Marriage Measure (Isle of Man) 2019 ...... 582 Questions for Written Answer ...... 583 25. Debt collection – Plan for improvements ...... 583 26. Supporting people returning to work – Progress ...... 583 27. Capital and regeneration schemes – Review of financing ...... 584 28. Year of Our Island – Details of grants provided each month ...... 585 29. School student numbers – Projected figures for 2019-2024...... 587 30. HSC Research and Development – Progress on governance framework ...... 589 31. Moving services from hospital into community – Progress made ...... 590 32. On-Island and off-Island service provision – Progress on definition ...... 590 33. Winter road safety campaign in last five years – Details of vehicles stopped ...... 591 34. Local authority housing – DoI funding; shortfall in rental income ...... 592 35. Social housing – Deficiency claims made by each provider ...... 592 36. DoI housing stock – Rental income, running costs and surplus 2017-18 ...... 593 37. Energy from Waste Plant – Availability fees; rent paid to Isle of Man Bank; other annual costs ...... 594 Order of the Day ...... 596 3. Public Defender Scheme Project – Statement by the Minister for the Treasury ...... 596 4. Independent Review of the Isle of Man Health and Social Care System Progress Report – Statement by the Minister for the Treasury ...... 599 5. Road Safety Strategy 2019-29 – Debate commenced ...... 601 The Court adjourned at 1 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m...... 606 Road Safety Strategy 2019-29 – Debate continued – Motion carried ...... 606 6. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee – Second Report 2018-19: Mental Health – Amended motion carried ...... 626 The Court adjourned at 5.30 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.59 p.m...... 647 7. Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald – Second Report 2018-19: Draft Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Care of Churches Measure (Isle of Man) received and recommendation approved ...... 647 8. Select Committee on Public Service Media – Combined vote under Standing Order 3.19(1) – Amended motion carried ...... 648 9. Isle of Man Steam Packet Group Limited – Appointment of three Non-Executive Directors – Motion carried ...... 658 10. Data Protection Act 2018 – GDPR and LED Implementing Regulations (Amendment) Regulations 2018 approved ...... 660 11. Government Departments Act 1987 – Transfer of Functions (Safeguarding) Order 2018 approved ...... 662 12. Safeguarding Act 2018 – Safeguarding Board (Qualifications and Procedures) Regulations 2018 not moved ...... 664
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13. Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 2001 – Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 2001 (Exceptions) Order 2018 approved ...... 665 14. Beneficial Ownership Act 2017 – Beneficial Ownership (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2018 approved ...... 665 15-16. Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 – Employed Person’s Allowance (General) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018; Income Support (General) (Isle of Man) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018 – Not moved...... 666 The Council withdrew...... 667 House of Keys ...... 667 The House adjourned at 6.43 p.m...... 667
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Tynwald
The Court met at 10.30 a.m.
[MR PRESIDENT in the Chair]
The Third Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald.
The President: Moghrey mie, Hon. Members.
5 Members: Moghrey mie, Eaghtyrane.
The President: The Chaplain of the House of Keys will lead us in prayer.
PRAYERS The Chaplain of the House of Keys
The President: Hon. Members, we meet at the beginning of 2019 and we will enter the year with confidence and resolve.
Leave of absence granted
10 The President: I have given leave of absence to the Lord Bishop; to the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft; and to the Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge, who is unwell. The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Malarkey, will be joining us later this morning.
Congratulations to Mrs Maska (formerly Mrs Hendy) on her recent marriage and Miss Bettison on her recent engagement
The President: May I on behalf of the Court offer warmest congratulations to Mrs Marlene Maska on her recent marriage. 15 I am sure the Court will wish also to congratulate Miss Clare Bettison on her recent engagement.
Members: Hear, hear!
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1. Papers laid before the Court
20 The President: I call on the Clerk to lay papers.
The Clerk: I lay before the Court the papers listed at Item 1 of the Order Paper. Ta mee cur roish y Whaiyl ny pabyryn enmyssit ayns ayrn nane jeh’n Chlaare Obbyr.
Data Protection Act 2018 GDPR and LED Implementing Regulations (Amendment) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0309] [MEMO]
Government Departments Act 1987 Transfer of Functions (Safeguarding) Order 2018 [SD No 2018/0322] [MEMO]
Safeguarding Act 2018 Safeguarding Board (Qualifications and Procedures) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0323] [MEMO]
Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 2001 Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 2001 (Exceptions) Order 2018 [SD No 2018/0327] [MEMO]
Beneficial Ownership Act 2017 Beneficial Ownership (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0310] [MEMO]
Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 Employed Person’s Allowance (General) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0315] [MEMO]
Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 Income Support (General) (Isle of Man) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0316] [MEMO]
Reports
Isle of Man Government’s Road Safety Strategy 2019-2029 [GD No 2018/0050]
Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald Second Report for the Session 2018-2019 Draft Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Care of Churches Measure (Isle of Man) [PP No 2018/0176]
The remaining items are not the subject of motions on the Order Paper
Documents subject to no procedure
Payment of Members’ Expenses Act 1989 Payment of Members’ Expenses (Specified Bodies) (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2018 [SD No 2018/0317]
Merchant Shipping Act 1985 Merchant Shipping (Amendment) Regulations 2019 [SD No 2018/0324] [MEMO]
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Documents subject to negative resolution
Immigration Act 2014 Immigration and Nationality (Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0259] [MEMO]
Equality Act 2017 Employment and Equality Tribunal Rules 2018 [SD No 2018/0314] [MEMO]
Fisheries Act 2012 Sea Fishing Licensing (No.2) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0336] [MEMO]
Appointed Day Orders
Equality Act 2017 Equality Act 2017 (Appointed Day) (No.5) Order 2018 [SD No 2018/0329]
Safeguarding Act 2018 Safeguarding Act 2018 (Appointed Day) Order 2018 [SD No 2018/0321]
Reports
Tynwald Commissioner for Administration Refusal to Investigate a Complaint – Statement of Reasons [TCA1818]
Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme Report for 2017/18 [GD No 2018/0027]
Financial Information and Miscellaneous Accounts year-ended 31 March 2015 [GD No 2018/0055]
Financial Information and Miscellaneous Accounts year-ended 31 March 2016 [GD No 2018/0056]
Financial Information and Miscellaneous Accounts year-ended 31 March 2017 [GD No 2018/0057]
Safeguarding Together Guidance for collective working to safeguard children and vulnerable adults in the Isle of Man [GD No 2018/0089]
Independent Review of the Isle of Man Health and Social Care System Progress Report [GD 2018/0092]
Council of Ministers’ Response to the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Mental Health Second Report 2018-19 [GD No 2018/0094]
Isle of Man Schools’ Attainment Level 2017-2018 [PP No 2019/0002]
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Bills for signature
The President: Hon. Members, I have to announce that the following Bills are ready for 25 signature: the Abortion Reform Bill 2018; and the European Union and Trade Bill 2018. With the consent of the Court, I shall circulate these Bills for signing, while we deal with other business.
Members: Agreed.
2. Questions for Oral Answer
TREASURY
1. Cycle to Work Scheme – Amount allocated by Government
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Treasury Minister:
How much the Government has allocated to the Cycle to Work Scheme including the cost of administering the scheme and the tax exemption for pedal and electronic bikes?
30 The President: We turn to Item 2 on our Order Paper, Questions. I call the Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew, Mr Moorhouse. Question 1.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister: how much has the Government allocated to the 35 Cycle to Work Scheme, including the cost of administrating the scheme and the tax exemptions for pedal and electric bikes?
The President: I call on the Minister for the Treasury, Mr Cannan.
40 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, a benefit in kind charge would normally be applied where an employee receives a benefit from their employer other than by way of their salary, and this in turn would increase their Income Tax liability. Therefore, as is the case for this and many other benefits which are exempt from Income Tax, there is no requirement for employers to provide such details of the amounts involved to the Assessor of 45 Income Tax. I will now turn to the matter of the Government’s Cycle to Work Scheme, to which the Hon. Member also refers in his Question. The Isle of Man Government launched this scheme for Government employees in August 2017 following the introduction of the benefit in kind exemption. The scheme is administered by the Office of Human Resources and consequently 50 Treasury has no involvement in the operation of it. However, I can confirm that my officers have been in touch with their counterparts in that office and they have been informed that no funding was specifically allocated for its administration and the small additional workload has been absorbed within existing budgets.
55 The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
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Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Minister. Given the individuals and the employers directly involved in the scheme have a clear awareness of the benefits, as do local suppliers, does the Minister have any plans to assess the impact of what is potentially quite a small benefit in kind and how that really impacts hugely, 60 potentially, in terms of investment in local businesses and the health advantages for local people?
The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan.
65 The Minister: I think in bringing forward this scheme, Mr President, the Treasury recognised that it would tie very nicely in with a number of mainstream Government policies, particularly those around sustainable transport, people living healthier lives and of course the environmental impacts that cycling to work will have as opposed to taking the car. So there are a number of key Government policies this ties in with, and of course particularly, as the 70 Hon. Member who is asking the Question is a Member of the Department of Health and Social Care will well know, physical inactivity is a major cause of a number of diseases – cancer, diabetes and heart disease – and the cost of inactivity, I would suggest, far outweighs the cost of getting people active. That is what we are doing with this policy and for the small, I would suggest fairly inconsequential, loss – if there is one, and that can be identified – we are getting a 75 much more significant return. I hope that all Hon. Members will agree that these types of policies, where we are encouraging our people to be positively active – and particularly with the Cycle to Work Scheme encouraging them to, where possible, get on their bicycle and get to work as opposed to using the car – are positive for our budgets and positive for their lives. 80 Several Members: Hear, hear.
2. Cycle to Work Scheme – Usage and ownership of bicycles
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Treasury Minister:
What evidence there is that bicycles purchased through the Cycle to Work Scheme are being used for the purpose specified; and how many of those people using the scheme still owned the bike after 12 months?
The President: Question 2, Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. 85 I would like to ask the Treasury Minister what evidence there is that the bicycles purchased through the Cycle to Work Scheme are being used for the purpose specified; and how many of these people using the scheme still owned the bike after 12 months?
The President: I call on the Minister to reply. 90 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, as I have stated in my previous Answer, the Government Cycle to Work Scheme is operated by the Office of Human Resources and not by Treasury. But I have not been presented with any evidence to suggest that any
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bicycles purchased through the Cycle to Work Scheme are not being used for the purposes 95 specified.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Thank you, Minister. 100 Will the Minister consider going back to the people who actually have benefited from the scheme, particularly the cyclists, and find out: whether they actually would have bought the bikes without the scheme being there; how they rate the scheme; and potentially how it could be improved? As you say in your SAVE speech, it is a matter of continuous improvements in getting further 105 advantages from such schemes.
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Mr President, in due course I will be very happy to try to speak to people who 110 have benefited from the scheme and find out how it is helping to improve their lives and improve the lives of their family. If there are improvements to be made then I would welcome those discussions, and indeed any ideas being brought forward from any Hon. Member in terms of solutions that might be brought forward as part of a budgetary measure to enhance the lives of our community.
3. Employed Person’s Allowance – Numbers of claimants
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Dr Allinson) to ask the Treasury Minister:
How many (a) lone parents and (b) couples claim Employed Person’s Allowance?
115 The President: Question 3, Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister: how many (a) lone parents and (b) couples claim Employed Person’s Allowance? 120 The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Cannan.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The total number of families currently receiving Employed Person’s Allowance is 1,143. Of this total around 755 are lone parents, whilst 125 around 388 are couples with dependent children.
The President: Supplementary, Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: Thank you very much, Mr President. 130 I would like to thank the Treasury Minister for his Answer and for his honest and intelligent decision to withdraw the two motions today relating to EPA (A Member: Hear, hear.) and Income Support for lone parents. In the recent detailed Government Accounts for the year ended 31st March 2018, it was stated that there was a favourable variance of over £1 million for Income Support, Child Benefit
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135 and EPA. Does he feel that this reflects the advantages of a higher minimum wage and living wage, and the improvement in wage levels on the Island in general?
The President: Mr Cannan.
140 The Minister: Mr President, I do think it is important that we pursue policies that will benefit our lowest paid income earners across the board and in fact not only in the measures that he has highlighted – other advantages. But also under this Government of course we have taken other steps to improve the financial earning ability of our lower paid families, including raising the personal tax threshold from £10,500 to its current rate £13,250 which would put between 145 £300 to £700 per annum back into the pockets of these sorts of families. But like everything, Mr President, there is always a balance to be had and certainly when raising minimum wages and when looking at living wages one has to also ensure they are reasonable and fair and will not adversely affect the economy thereby reducing the numbers of jobs in the market. But, yes, in principle I certainly agree that it is absolutely important, as a 150 Government, we seek to ensure that we are bringing forward the right policies to help these families as much as possible.
The President: Supplementary, Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
155 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. My question for the Minister is: on the understanding that the Employed Person’s Allowance was a form of help which was signposted after the changes related to Bereaved Person’s Allowance, will the Minister consider taking a fresh look at the support more broadly for the circumstances of lone parents and their children where one parent has died and their children or 160 teens are there as dependants? Taking a second look, really, recognising the demands a parent is under in this situation; the context of the chance to be employed to the number of hours required to access EPA; and thinking also about the childcare provision for school-aged children, which has been lacking in some areas, and also mindful about the benefits system being in the best interests of the children – those children who, in particular, need that one parent more. 165 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Mr President, thank you; and thankfully those types of cases are relatively rare. 170 But I am certainly happy to take this opportunity now, whilst we are getting more information together to present both to the public and to Hon. Members around the whole EPA and Income Support welfare support system, that I would be happy to look at whether there should be some carve out or caveat around bereaved parents in certain circumstances.
EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE
4. Single-use plastics – Advice in schools
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What advice he has provided recently on the use of single-use plastics in Island schools?
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The President: Question 4, Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse. 175 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture what advice he has provided recently on the use of single-use plastics in Island schools?
180 The President: Minister for Education, Sport and Culture, Mr Cregeen.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. All schools are aware of Isle of Man Government’s Single-Use Plastic Reduction Plan. They are currently all completing an audit provided by the Department of Environment, Food and 185 Agriculture, as are all Government Departments, so we can establish accurately single-use plastic use across all Department buildings. Once these are collated, the Department will work with the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture to support schools in the best way to help with their reduction and replacement of single-use plastic items. The Department is aware of independent initiatives and 190 schemes being trialled and initiated in schools, including the removal of plastic straws on individual milk cartons, meaning the reduction of approximately 102,000 plastic straws per year.
The President: Mr Moorhouse, supplementary.
195 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Thank you, Minister. Will the Department encourage the sharing of good practice throughout the Island’s school community and encourage all stakeholders to contribute actively?
The President: Mr Cregeen. 200 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Yes.
The President: Mr Moorhouse, supplementary. 205 Mr Moorhouse: Given that positive response, how does the Minister envisage it going forward?
A Member: Quickly! 210 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. As I have said previously, we are doing an audit on the use of single-use plastics and once that has come through then we will carry out those initiatives.
215 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins.
Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister agree with me that one quick fix could be introducing the refill scheme that has been recently introduced in Peel? 220 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President.
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Yes, we are aware of that and one of the items that we are also aware of is there has been an 225 income stream to the schools and the schools are looking at the refill scheme. But it will mean that we will have to bring in water machines as well.
5. Free school meals – Initiatives to review support to schools
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Cretney, to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What initiatives his Department, together with others, will be taking to review support to schools in catchment areas where large numbers of children are entitled to free school meals?
The President: Question 5. Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. 230 I would like to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: what initiatives will his Department, together with others, be taking to review support to schools in catchment areas where large numbers of children are entitled to free school meals?
The President: I call on the Minister to reply. 235 The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. The Department applies the number of pupils receiving free school meals as a main social factor in allocating school budgets. Within the budget calculation a weighting is applied to all schools when the number of free school meals supplied exceeds the average percentage. Also, 240 within the calculation determining staff levels in primary schools, pupil ages are taken into consideration. This enables the Department to ensure that areas of deprivation and lower age range demographics receive greater funding.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Cretney. 245 Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. Given that the level of free school meals entitlement is widely recognised as an indicator of poverty and deprivation by both authoritative research bodies like the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the UK government, does he agree with me that the figures show not only a 250 surprisingly high level of uptake overall but also, in some cases, levels comparable with such UK areas as Hartlepool, parts of Kingston-Upon-Hull and Darlington, high areas of deprivation to name but three, and that for one of the wealthiest islands per capita they are nothing short of a national disgrace?
255 The President: I call on the Minister to reply. Mr Cregeen.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I think the area that we are looking at in the schools is the funding that goes through to the schools. We are fully aware of the number of free school meals out there and I think what we 260 have to do is be aware that alongside free school meals there are other benefits that go along with them – travel and other things. So we do need to work with our colleagues in Social Security on these matters.
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The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker. 265 The Speaker: Thank you. The Minister has described a system which has a regular capitation for most students and then an additional capitation for those who are on free school meals. Can I ask the Minister how it is decided how much is available in each of those pots and how they split that out – how much 270 money is available to go into that extra funding pot as opposed to the general funding pot?
The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 275 Unfortunately, I do not have the breakdown of the figures. When I have spoken to the Finance Division on this, they do take individual cases. What they do is look at the schools as close as they can to the start of term to try and determine the additional funding that goes in if there are more people with free school meals.
280 The President: Supplementary, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: Yes, perhaps if I could help with some of the figures. Does the Minister not think that a 65% rise in spending on free school meals in the period 2012-17, from £465,000 to £787,000, whilst school rolls were stable over the same period, shows a concerning increase in 285 the level of poverty within the pupil population of Manx schools and with all the potential impact that that may have on educational attainment?
The President: Mr Cregeen.
290 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. As I said earlier, it is an area that we really do need to work with our colleagues in Social Security on.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse. 295 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Free school meals have to be applied for independently by the parents. Could the Department do anything to proactively encourage parents who potentially might benefit from this scheme to become involved? 300 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Unfortunately, I did not catch what the Hon. Member said. Could he just repeat it? 305 Mr Moorhouse: Yes. Currently, if you are wanting to benefit from free school meals you have got to apply through various Government processes. Some parents decide that the administration is too onerous for them and do not apply for those benefits. Would the Education Department look at possibilities where parents could benefit from this and currently are not 310 benefiting from it?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 315 It is an area that we can have a look at. ______552 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would agree with the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney, that there does seem to be a 320 correlation between the high volume of children on free school meals and academic attainment. Would the Minister agree that if that was in the England schools, there would be a pupil premium, I think of up to £1,200 per pupil, that would be received by the school with a large number of children on free school meals? Is that something that the Department of Education would be considering? 325 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am aware one of our headteachers is currently looking at the pupil premium. It will mean 330 possibly a huge increase in the Department’s budget and it is something that we will have to talk to Treasury about if we need to go down that line. On the levels of attainment, it is questionable whether, as the Hon. Member said, because people are on free school meals the level of attainment is lower.
335 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. The Hon. Member for Garff actually asked the question that I was going to ask, but I am a little bit shocked by the reply in the sense that does he not accept that, in what he said, it 340 indicates there is a huge deficiency here that we have got to deal with? If we are the only place that I know of that does not operate a pupil premium and to put it into place would cost very significant sums of money, there is a problem here that we have got to deal with. Does he not accept that?
345 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. It is something that we need to address. One of the issues may be that we have to look at the current budgetary way that money is allocated, because there is consideration taken when free 350 school meals are at schools about the amount of funding each school gets. We would have to have a thorough review of the funding of the schools if we were to introduce the pupil premium, but that is something that is currently being looked at.
Questions 6, 9, 17 and 18 deferred
The President: Moving on, Question 6, as with Ms Edge’s other Questions, will be deferred.
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ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE
7. Manx produce – Local retailers and restaurants
The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Shimmins) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:
What action he is taking to encourage local retailers to stock Manx produce and local restaurants to use Manx produce?
The President: Question 7, Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins. 355 Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture what action he is taking to encourage local retailers to stock Manx produce and local restaurants to use Manx produce? 360 The President: I call on the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture, Mr Boot.
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member for Middle for his Question. As part of my Department’s Food 365 Matters strategy, there are a number of areas where the Department works with farmers, food manufacturers, retailers and the hospitality sector to facilitate the use of local products. My Department actively supports businesses that predominantly use local food by offering food development grants which can be used to support Manx businesses, market their products and purchase equipment, for example. 370 Eighteen months ago my Department also launched the Island’s provenance label which now sees nearly 600 products registered to use the label, as well as the butchers’ provenance label which allows the Island’s consumers to purchase Manx meat in the knowledge that it has been grown, reared and processed on the Island. The Food Matters team in my Department, which I would point out to my hon. friend is 375 relatively small, with 2.5 posts, also arranges a DEFA presence at the Southern and Royal Manx Agricultural shows, as well as the hugely popular Isle of Man Food and Drink Festival, where the 10th anniversary last year in September saw a record 10,000 visitors, who meet local food producers and sample their products over the two-day festival. The festival still provides today, as it did when it first started, a gateway to the Island’s residents of our diverse and growing food 380 sector with new products and businesses exhibiting on a yearly basis. Overall, the current strategy supports the production and promotion of high quality products that meet the demands of the market in terms of our consumer preference and price point. The Department accepts that retailers will stock what the public are asking to buy, so we rely on the attributes of our products to create a demand for Manx produce, rather than trying to push 385 products on to retailers and restaurants. Based on the growth in the sector, this approach appears to be successful.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Shimmins.
390 Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I am grateful for the Minister’s reply. I am sure we all recognise the good work that his Department does in promoting the agricultural shows and the food festival.
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Is the Minister aware that many farmers are frustrated that their produce is not stocked in many of the larger retailers on the Island? When did he last meet with the senior management 395 of these retailers to press the case for Manx produce?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 400 First of all, Manx meat and produce are stocked in major retailers on the Island and, in particular, Shoprite, our local supermarket chain are very keen and do market Manx produce. If he is referring to one of the largest retailers on the Island, from off-Island, as it were, negotiations have been ongoing. It is a commercial matter between the Meat Plant and the company concerned. About a year ago I had a meeting with one of the senior managers of that 405 store chain and I am aware that they are very keen to source local produce, but it is a commercial matter between the Meat Plant and that individual store as to whether they stock it or not. In terms of stocking Manx meat, I think you will find Manx meat in many of the retail shops around the Island and there seems to be a resurgence of local butcher shops stocking Manx 410 meat, and the Manx Provenance label that we launched around a year ago has helped people determine whether they are really buying Manx meat, not a meat from somewhere else. So I think there is greater confidence in the retail chain that we are actually marketing our quality produce.
415 The President: Supplementary, Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I am grateful for the Minister’s response. What targets has he for local retailers to stock Manx produce? 420 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. We do not set targets for retailers. Retailers stock produce because they can sell it at a profit. 425 Obviously, we would like retailers to sell 100% Manx when it comes to meat, but there are consumer preferences and the retailers recognise that, and there will always be a situation where, as I said in my earlier reply to the Question, the consumers drive the stocking. All we can do as a Department, and in fact Isle of Man Meats are doing a very good job recently of promoting their produce as being fine, Manx, low food miles, good quality, grass-fed animals 430 and very good quality meat.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 435 I would like to ask the Minister to follow up on his response with regard to actually meeting the senior marketing and management teams within our large retailer outlets here, in particular Tesco, to name but one, whereby he would agree to sit down with those people and work out a strategy of what products they would be most interested to sell, i.e. Manx products? Would he accept that a few years ago, if he digs into the files at his Department he will find 440 that yours truly provided quite a substantial document on what Tesco was prepared to sell and that this work should be followed up on with special reference to berries, tomatoes, chicken and so on, and it would be a great boost for the local economy?
The President: Minister. ______555 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
445 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Please be assured that as a Department we have had high-level contact in the past and it is our ambition to see Manx meat in the store mentioned. However, it is a commercial matter and it is one that is needing to be resolved between the Meat Plant on a commercial basis with the retailer concerned. 450 As Minister and Members of the Department, if we can contribute to that process in any way we will do so, but there are various aspects that are commercial around that engagement. But rest assured we are doing our utmost to ensure that they sell local produce.
The President: Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker. 455 Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President. Would the Minister agree with me that to get new products into major international retailers, such as those that have been mentioned, takes a significant amount of time and that there is a huge amount of work going on between the senior management team of Isle of Man 460 Meats and major retailers on the Island to grow the availability of Manx red meat, in particular, in those major supermarkets alongside the very supportive relationship with some of the other retailers on the Island; and that the Minister and the management of Isle of Man Meats are very confident of seeing the material improvement in the availability of Manx red meat across all major supermarkets on the Island during this year; and that the best thing that customers could 465 do is, when they approach their retailer, to ask them to make sure it is Manx?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 470 There is not a lot I can disagree with there, if anything. I am only too aware of the new management team’s efforts in Isle of Man Meats to ensure that we get a good outcome. I know that they are striving hard to produce the quality which is required and meet the requirements of the international retailers. I am hoping in the near future we will see a breakthrough in that respect. 475 I congratulate Mr Baker in his chairmanship of the Isle of Man Meats making very good progress.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
480 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. The Isle of Man Creamery’s ability to get their products into supermarkets across and wider field is pretty impressive. Are their expertise being used to benefit other food producers on Island?
485 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Sorry, Mr President, I did not hear the first part of the question.
Mr Moorhouse: Yes. It is linking to the Isle of Man Creamery and their success in selling their 490 products globally; could their expertise be used to benefit other local producers?
The Minister: I think, Mr President, we are straying off the Question slightly, but Isle of Man Creamery has been very successful in marketing their produce off Island and internationally, and I think some of that expertise is in fact being shared with other producers.
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8. UNESCO Biosphere status – Feedback received from recent visitors to Island
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:
What feedback he has received from UNESCO as a result of visits to the Island in the last few months by representatives from the UNESCO Programme Specialist with the Man and Biosphere Programme and the Global Chair of the Biosphere Programme’s International Co- ordinating Council?
495 The President: Question 8. Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture: what feedback has he received from UNESCO as a result of the visits to the Island in the last few months by 500 representatives from the UNESCO Programme Specialist with the Man and Biosphere Programme and the Global Chair of the Biosphere Programme’s International Co-ordinating Council?
The President: I call on the Minister to reply. 505 The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. The Isle of Man is proud to be a UNESCO Biosphere under the Man and Biosphere Programme (MAB), which is about balancing the needs of a community, environment and importantly a thriving economy. 510 In October and November 2018 we were privileged with visits from Dr Meriem Bouamrane, Programme Specialist with MAB, and Prof. Enny Sudarmonowati, Chair of the Programme’s International Co-ordinating Council. Meriem visited at the Island’s invitation to see our progress as a relatively young Biosphere and so that we could learn from her about MAB’s global priorities and progress, because we are 515 keen to develop the project on the Isle of Man and in time hopefully be a model Biosphere. She spoke eloquently about the UN sustainable development goals, about the importance of populations in biospheres, about biodiversity and how we engage people with the ethos of biosphere reserves. Her expectation is not that we start perfect, but that we commit to improve, reflect and act on our results. The biosphere ethos is about connecting, collaborating and 520 communicating. This generally requires a full-time leader who can find a common interest between groups and, where they can, together take steps towards a sustainable future with a resilient economy, valued environment and vibrant community. Enny, who was from Indonesia, expressed a keenness to visit the Island while in the UK on UNESCO business and she outlined her priorities during her two-year tenure as global chair, 525 which includes strengthening visibility within biospheres, which she congratulated us on, having seen a number of logoed sites, starting on her arrival at the Airport, and meeting engaged partners. She is also keen to connect MAB with other UNESCO programmes in support of the sustainable development goals. Both visitors spoke highly of our situation and the progress we are making. They 530 acknowledged that this stage in the development can be challenging as some people try to understand what it is all about, whilst others try to use the biosphere concept almost like regulation, as if we should stop this, only do that, whatever. We were reassured that this is normal and that every biosphere has great aspects and areas they have scope to improve. The first visit coincided with the news of the licensing of gas exploration in our seas and it 535 was very reassuring to hear Meriem acknowledge that such activity was acceptable and equally ______557 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
that there are other biospheres where protesters had tried to use their biosphere status to block wind farms. She was very clear that considerations about achieving a sensible and in every way sustainable balance is what it is all about. The visitors left us inspired to grow and learn as a Biosphere, as we promote the ethos to the 540 benefit of our Island. My officers and I are currently giving their comments deep consideration and working towards a strategy on biosphere delivery with local stakeholders’ groups, chaired by the Chief Minister, and this will eventually go to public consultation.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Moorhouse. 545 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Minister. Were you able to show our honoured guests some of the outstanding natural historical features on Island while they were here?
550 The President: Mr Boot.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. They both had what I would call a whirlwind tour of the Island. They kept very busy and were very impressed with our landscape diversity and also our community and our heritage, as well as 555 just the environmental aspects of Biosphere.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 560 Did the delegates who were here make any recommendations on our core zones within the Biosphere in respect of making any enhanced conservation measures and improving the biodiversity of those core zones?
The President: Minister. 565 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, we had discussions about biodiversity and the core zones and transition zones as well. I explained that at the moment we are reviewing our Agricultural Support Scheme, which will hopefully result in, particularly in the upland, a more environmentally focused scheme rather 570 than incentives or just base land payments, and they thought that was a good way forward.
The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. 575 Could I ask the Minister if the visitors from UNESCO had any serious criticism of the Island? Are there any areas of concern that the Department will be following up?
The President: Minister to reply.
580 The Minister: A number of individuals expressed complaints about our Biosphere status and the way we were running it – two, to be precise – but there were some local comments at the public meeting we held and it was more around our exploration of hydrocarbons in the future. But in terms of direct criticism from the two hon. visitors, there was no direct criticism. It was more about assisting us and giving us advice on how we can progress and get better public buy 585 in. As I said earlier, we are working on that. In fact, in February we are holding a workshop session with stakeholders so that we can develop a plan that will go out to public consultation.
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The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
590 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. We have touched on this almost already, but have there been any new initiatives planned by DEFA as a result of the visit?
The President: Minister to reply. 595 The Minister: Thank you. In terms of new initiatives, there is a lot of work ongoing with regard to the Biosphere which buys into the environmental issues. There is nothing specific that has come out of this meeting. It was more an encouragement of where we are going and the journey we are on. The only thing 600 that I think is really significant – and I referred to that in the answer to the previous question – is that we are going to hold a workshop session with stakeholders so we can see better engagement and get an idea of what the community wants to see going forward, rather than just our idea of Biosphere.
605 The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Minister. When will additional information be available on the workshop?
610 The Minister: Mr President, I believe the workshop is arranged for the last week in February. That will result in an outcome that we hope will be ready for public consultation within a month or two after that.
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
10. Mental health crisis team – Refusal to attend Police Headquarters
The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney, to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
Under what circumstances when requested by the Police to attend Police Headquarters the Department’s policy is for the mental health crisis team to refuse to attend?
The President: We move to Question 10, Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney.
615 Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care under what circumstances, when requested by the Police to attend Police Headquarters, the Department’s policy is for the mental health crisis team to refuse to attend?
620 The President: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Care, Mr Ashford, to reply.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. In response to the Question by the Hon. Member of Council, I am able to state there is no policy in the Department which provides for the mental health crisis team to refuse to attend 625 Police Headquarters when a request is made by the Police for an assessment to be made. However, there may be occasions, Mr President, when the request is escalated to the on-call ______559 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
psychiatrist for the Mental Health Service, and this will depend upon the nature of the request and any known mental health history of the person who is being referred into the service.
630 The President: Supplementary, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: I am a little worried that I do not want to be too specific about a particular person, but can I just say that in a press report on Friday 28th December 2018 on a 3FM news item, it said the Police contacted the crisis team but were told no one was prepared to come out 635 to see him. Instead, Mr C – I am saying that – who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia, was taken into custody. Would the Hon. Member like to expand?
The President: Minister to reply. 640 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I have got to be very careful what I say. We are aware of the incident that Mr Cretney, the Hon. Member of Council is referring to, and the advice I have from the Department is that the particular case concerned is sub judice so I cannot comment directly on the case. What I can 645 actually state is that the information I have in relation to this particular incident does not tie in with what was stated within the news report. I would refer the Hon. Member of Council back to my original Answer that, on certain occasions, the Mental Health Crisis Team will obviously assess when the request comes in to them and if they feel that it needs to be escalated to the on-call psychiatrist for them to attend 650 then that is the procedure that follows; and then obviously if the on-call psychiatrist needs to go out and attend they will then make a judgement on whether or not that person is fit to be held or interviewed. Unfortunately, Mr President, I am not trying to be unhelpful but that is as much as I can state in this current arena.
11. Speech and language therapy – Significant reduction in schools
The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How a significant reduction in speech and language therapy in schools will be implemented this month; and if he will make a statement?
655 The President: Question 11, Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care how a significant reduction in speech and language therapy in schools will be implemented this month; and if he will make a 660 statement?
The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Ashford.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. 665 In December a letter was sent to the Island’s schools by the Department’s clinical team lead for Children’s Therapy advising them of changes to the provision of speech and language therapy in schools. The letter, I believe, has been helpfully circulated to Hon. Members by ______560 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
Mrs Caine yesterday. The letter informed schools that the changes would come into effect in the spring term of this year. 670 Some internal restructuring, a growing caseload and a shortage of professional resources led to the conclusion that for a period the current level of speech and language therapy support in schools cannot be maintained. The service delivery for pre-school and Reception age children with complex speech disorders is being prioritised, ensuring that early intervention continues and I think that is absolutely crucial, Mr President. This will help children to be more school 675 ready and allow them to access the curriculum with a minimum of support from educational professionals. The change in service will affect mainly children in Key Stage 2 and above, as new referrals will not for the time being be able to be dealt with. We are monitoring the situation carefully and focusing on providing speech and language therapy support to those children with the most 680 needs. I have also, Mr President, instructed that a thorough review be undertaken of this particular service with a focus on ensuring that the resources available are appropriate to the projected demands for the service going forward.
685 The President: Supplementary, Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to thank the Minister for that Answer. It is somewhat concerning that more and more we seem to be hearing from the Health Service phrases like ‘for a period of time the 690 current level of service cannot be maintained’. It surely is not restricted specifically to this service. My question for the Minister – two questions really: is this part of an ongoing process where the Health Service is quietly cutting back services without really engaging properly with service users; and, secondly, how long will this particular period be where the current level of service 695 cannot be maintained and when does he expect it to be back up to standard?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 700 A straight answer to the first part of the question which is, no, it isn’t. In relation to the reasons behind this, just to give a bit of background, Mr President, there are currently vacancies within the service; there is currently a 0.5 role and also there is a maternity leave that is coming into play. Now obviously we need to try and get coverage for that. That is one of the reasons I have asked for a review of the service, because to my mind 705 looking at the detail of the service, I believe they are running close to the wire in terms of caseload. Caseload has increased quite substantially over the years and the important thing is that we now look at what the projected caseload is going to be going forward, and if we need to be looking at putting more resource into the service then that is what we will have to do. In relation to the staffing levels, in order to get the service back up to where it needs to be 710 we would need to see an additional 0.5 equivalent, band 6, within the service and as part of the review that is something that I have asked to be looked at, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
715 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Minister for his response and also for the undertaking to have a full review of the service, but I do have some concerns and I wonder if he would let us know how many staff are within this service currently; what would the full strength be to meet the current needs of the service; and given the letter that was circulated to primary schools, how can this team of ______561 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
720 whatever manage to absorb an additional 150 cases and still continue to deliver a level of service that one would think that this area of therapy requires?
The President: Minister to reply.
725 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Once the maternity leave kicks in for the individual who is going off on maternity leave, which is a 0.6 full-time equivalent, there will actually be two full-time therapists within the mainstream team. So in terms of caseload though, I do need to point out that, for instance, we have seen dramatic increases in caseload over the last few years and so it is important that we do review 730 how we are delivering this service. Obviously, I do have concerns myself that maternity leave, which should be planned – if that is going to impact on service provision. That is why I have asked for a full review of the service. But I think the important thing, Mr President, is that we are prioritising early intervention because that is absolutely key. That is where the bulk of the service provision is and that is what 735 we are maintaining because, although there are cases that emerge within Key Stage 2 and later, the most prioritised stuff as far as I am concerned is the early years and ensuring that those children are effectively school-ready. We have given the undertaking that that will continue, that that will be prioritised while we are reviewing the service and seeing how we can, again, expand out into offering not just the service we are currently offering, but perhaps even an enhanced 740 service compared to what we have been offering recently.
The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. 745 The Minister stated that Key Stage 2 was likely to be the most affected age group and I was just wondering if he could perhaps expand a little bit on what sort of service demand will go unmet as a result of the shortfall of staffing.
The President: Minister to reply. 750 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I should make it absolutely clear that in relation to Key Stage 2 it is new referrals, so new referrals will not be being accepted. Obviously it is very hard to predict going forward what any new referrals will be, because normally new referrals will be people joining the school age 755 population who are not already in there. The people who are already on the list, my understanding is that that will continue for the time being, but that our priority is obviously Reception and Key Stage 1. The other thing I need to make clear as well about the Key Stage 2 and above is that they will be still accepting referrals for stammering, so that service within the Key Stage 2 and above will 760 still be being met.
The President: Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President. 765 The Minister, in his earlier answer, referred to a dramatic increase in demand in recent years. Does the Minister understand, or his Department understand, what is actually driving that dramatic increase in demand; and whether they are perhaps causes that are maybe outside the Department’s areas of service provision? If it is, are we taking a sufficiently holistic view of service provision to ensure that we are not 770 saving money in one area and effectively incurring it elsewhere? I would just be grateful if the Minister could share his thoughts on that. ______562 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Yes, thank you, Mr President. 775 In relation to demand, obviously demand does fluctuate across the service, and we have seen increases in demand and caseload, and it is very important that we properly address that. In relation to what is driving demand, in terms of speech and therapy, to be perfectly honest, they are generally individual situations. So it is very hard to necessarily identify one core demographic or something that is driving that. It really does depend on a year-by-year basis as to which 780 children are coming into the school. That is why, Mr President, the important thing from this, while we do review the service and while we look at how we want to move the service forward, is we focus on those children in Reception and Key Stage 1, because they are absolutely crucial. If they do not get that early intervention then that causes problems further down the line. 785 So we are focusing on that and there will be some disruption to Key Stage 2 and above, but I believe we are taking the right approach in saying that, rather than actually during this temporary period splitting off across all the different areas and saying there will be reduced demand, we are continuing to deal with Key Stage 1 and Reception, and although there will be a temporary disruption to Key Stage 2, I believe we are taking the right approach. 790 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I have got three questions actually for the Minister. 795 Firstly, he is saying that – and it really concerns me – there was no business case apparently done for a planned maternity leave, reducing the service provision to, I think he said, two full- time therapists. Can I ask, as well as absorbing those 150 additional cases and not taking any new referrals from Key Stage 2 and above, what is the total caseload for the remaining therapists in that service? 800 The second matter would really be: has this been done in a joined up way? Does he appreciate and accept that there will be an impact on the teachers within the schools who feel or find, from Key Stage 2 and above or at any age, that there is a speech, language or communication issue? They are no longer able to call in or receive the level of support from the trained professionals in that area and that could have ongoing emotional or medical 805 requirements for those children. My final one is to ask the Minister if he is aware of the ‘Bercow: Ten Years On’ report – an independent review of the provision for children and young people with speech, language and communication needs in England? It makes very strong recommendations to the UK government and system leaders about what must change to improve the situation there, with a focus on 810 solutions and presents examples of effective practices. Is that something that the Department will be reviewing when it reviews the service? Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Minister to reply. 815 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Taking the last one first, I am aware of the particular report that the Hon. Member for Garff refers to. In relation to the review of service, it is exactly that, Mr President; it is a fundamental review of the way that we deliver the service. So obviously things such as that will be taken into 820 account, and the way that we structure the service going forward. In relation to caseloads, the mainstream caseload – so across all ages – I have been advised this morning is 302. So effectively after the person goes on maternity, the 0.6 role, that would leave two full-time therapists in the mainstream team, so effectively they would have 150 ______563 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
children on each of their caseloads. That obviously, from my point of view, is a very large 825 caseload for people to be handling. I do need to clarify again, Mr President, that we will be looking to try and bring in maternity cover, but that does need to be recruited for the maternity post and I think we do also need to look at the staffing levels within the service, to ensure that if demand continues to rise that we have an appropriate level of staffing to meet that demand. 830 In relation to, are we doing things in a joined-up way, Mr President, I do believe we are. We have been liaising and working with the Department of Education on this to try and ensure that what we can do is minimise any disruption in the short term. I believe that we are minimising that disruption. I think most Hon. Members would agree that the key to most things within the Department of Health and Social Care is early intervention, be it mental health, which we will be 835 discussing later in this sitting, Mr President, or indeed this service. That is why we have taken, I think, the very sensible and joined-up decision to make sure that we maintain and do not disrupt that early intervention, which when it comes to children, particularly at the age of reception, coming into school, they are not disadvantaged because of the demands that they need for speech and therapy. 840 The President: Final supplementary, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister earlier said that the reduction in service is primarily going to impact new 845 referrals and that those already inside the services are going to keep receiving it. The letter, on the other hand that was circulated, directly contradicts that and says that: ‘The changes will concern children both currently referred to the speech and language therapy and future referrals.’ The letter also goes on to say that in respect of Key Stage 1, so Reception and Year 1 classes, 850 that ‘there will be no direct input for children with language difficulties, only those that have complex speech disorders.’ So I wonder if the Minister can perhaps clarify his earlier remarks and tell us exactly what service is going to continue to be provided?
855 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I am happy to clarify. The information I have in front of me is that in relation to Reception and Key Stage 1, new 860 referrals will continue obviously to be accepted and that children will be assessed and those requiring intervention will be placed on a waiting list for therapy. At the moment, the current waiting time for appointments for initial assessments is four months. I will clarify that. In relation to Key Stage 2 and above, the information I have in front of me is that new referrals will not be accepted and the list for new referrals will be closed, but that referrals for 865 stammering will continue to be accepted. That is information I have in front of me, sir.
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HOME AFFAIRS
12. Vulnerable people in custody – Policies and procedures review
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Cretney, to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:
Whether the Police have recently reviewed policies and procedures regarding vulnerable people in custody?
The President: I turn to Question 12, Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Home Affairs whether the Police have recently reviewed 870 policies and procedures regarding vulnerable people in custody?
The President: On behalf of the Minister I call on the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson, to reply.
875 A Member of the Department of Home Affairs (Dr Allinson): Thank you, Mr President. The Isle of Man Constabulary’s policy on the detention and treatment of anyone in custody, whether vulnerable or not, is based on approved professional practice issued by the College of Policing. The policy was reviewed in November 2018, having last been reviewed in May 2017. It will be subject to further reviews when operational circumstances dictate or when the College of 880 Policing issues revised practice guidelines. The way the Constabulary deals with individuals and its detention is set out in law in the Police Powers and Procedures Act 1998, and supporting codes.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Cretney. 885 Mr Cretney: Could I ask the Member on behalf of his Minister, if he would be prepared to consider the recent case which I referred to earlier, which was published to 3FM on Friday, 28th December 2018 where the Police came under fire for the way in which they had handled a certain case, by the Deputy High Bailiff. Would he agree with me that this is something that 890 should be looked at?
The President: I call on the Member to reply.
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. 895 This is very much an operational matter for the Chief Constable and what I would like to say is that officers are given training on various aspects of mental health. This training begins as part of the initial training programme and it is then periodically refreshed. A new mental health protocol exists which describes the roles that the Police and mental health professionals carry out and training on this has been provided in respect of it. The 900 Minister is not aware of this individual case because, as I said, it has been an operational matter with the Chief Constable, but I will ask the Chief Constable about it.
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13. Pepper spray use by Police – Rules re vulnerable persons; appropriate circumstances
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Cretney, to ask the Minister for Home Affairs :
What rules cover the use of pepper spray by the Police on vulnerable persons; and under what circumstances its use is considered appropriate?
The President: Question 13. Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. 905 I would like to ask the Minister for Home Affairs: what rules cover the use of pepper spray by the Police on vulnerable persons, and under what circumstances is its use considered appropriate?
The President: The Member of the Department of Home Affairs, Dr Allinson, to reply. 910 A Member of the Department of Home Affairs (Dr Allinson): Thank you, Mr President. Police officers may use whatever force is necessary in the circumstances in order to protect life and property, or to prevent a breach of the peace, or to effect an arrest. There will be occasions where such force is used on vulnerable persons to prevent them from harming 915 themselves or others, or in other circumstances I have described. Use of force by police officers can include the use of incapacitant sprays. The Isle of Man Constabulary issues to its officers an aerosol incapacitant spray commonly known as Pava. The Constabulary’s use of these sprays is based upon existing best practice guidelines from the United Kingdom, which were initially set out in 2008 by the Association of Chief Police Officers. 920 The guidelines now constitute approved best practice, and training is given on an annual basis to all police officers under a curriculum set by the College of Policing.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Cretney?
TREASURY
14. Lone parents – Income Support and Jobseeker’s Allowance
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Dr Allinson) to ask the Treasury Minister:
How many lone parents (a) with children less than 12 years old claim Income Support; and (b) receive Jobseeker’s Allowance?
The President: Question 14. Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson. 925 Dr Allinson: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister: how many lone parents (a) with children less than 12 years old claim Income Support; and (b) seek Jobseeker’s Allowance?
930 The President: Minister for the Treasury, Mr Cannan, to reply.
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The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, currently, 267 lone parents with at least one child under 12 receive Income Support solely on account of their status as a lone parent. It may be the case that a very small number of lone parents with children less than 935 12 years old are receiving Income Support for a different reason – for example, on the basis they are incapacitated for work or are caring for a severely disabled person. I can confirm that 11 lone parents are receiving Jobseeker’s Allowance currently.
The President: Supplementary, Dr Allinson. 940 Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Treasury Minister for his Answer. Does he agree that men and women become lone parents for a whole range of personal reasons, including relationship breakdowns, bereavement and sometimes due to domestic violence; and can he outline how 945 benefit office staff are able to assess and assist such individuals to retrain and find meaningful employment?
The President: Minister to reply.
950 The Minister: Mr President, I am confident that benefit office staff treat everybody fairly and consistently. In terms of the back-to-work process, Social Security staff will offer job-focused interviews and now, as the Hon. Member will be aware, we have actually located the Job Centre itself in the Social Security office. So the close relationship now between those employed in the Job 955 Centre and those in the Social Security office will provide enhanced benefits for ensuring that both the availability of work and the work-focused interview process is carried out in as smooth a manner as possible. I am very happy to provide Members and will provide Members with further details of how benefit claimants are helped in terms of the support mechanism, the workplace focused 960 interview, what types of questions are asked at those interviews and how the relationship between the Job Centre and the Social Security offices is working in the future when we come to re-present our plans for these particular allowances.
15. Employed Person’s Allowance – ‘Severely disabled’ definition
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Dr Allinson) to ask the Treasury Minister:
What definition is used to determine whether a child is severely disabled in respect to a claim for Employed Person’s Allowance?
The President: Question 15, Dr Allinson.
965 Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister what definition is used to determine whether a child is severely disabled in respect to a claim for Employed Person’s Allowance?
The President: I call on the Minister to reply. 970 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, the definition of a severely disabled child is substantially the same as that for a severely disabled adult, being that a severely ______567 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
disabled person within the meaning in section 72 of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, as that Act has effect on the Island; or a person who has claimed Disability 975 Living Allowance and would be entitled to the care component of Disability Living Allowance at the highest or middle rate if the three-month qualifying condition provided for in section 72(2)(a) of that Act were not to apply. Section 70(2) of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act provides that a:
‘severely disabled person’ means a person in respect of whom there is payable either an attendance allowance or a disability living allowance by virtue of entitlement to the care component at the highest or middle rate or such other payment out of public funds on account of his [or her] need for attendance as may be prescribed.
The President: Supplementary, Dr Allinson. 980 Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Treasury Minister for his response – a very technical reply. There are many children and young people on this Island with a range of medical illnesses and psychological conditions such as autism, learning difficulties, asthma and epilepsy who may not 985 fit this criteria but whose parents may have to monitor closely and come to school regularly to support and supervise. How will these parents be assessed by this Department if there are changes made to the eligibility criteria for EPA?
990 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Mr President, the Social Security officers are not medical experts and in fact there are clearly defined criteria for people who are receiving Employed Person’s Allowance, for example, or Income Support – clearly defined criteria for providing for children with serious 995 medical conditions. As the Hon. Member knows, there are three grades for Disability Living Allowance in terms of the component parts of that: higher rate, middle rate and lower rate. And I believe as it currently stands that those rates and the qualifications provide Social Security and the Treasury with clear guidance over how benefits should be applied.
16. New £1 coin – Isle of Man’s own design
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Treasury Minister:
What response he has made to the UK Treasury’s offer to allow the Isle of Man to design and mint its own version of the UK’s new £1 coin?
1000 The President: Question 16, Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister what response he has made to the UK Treasury’s offer to allow the Isle of Man to design and mint its own version of the UK’s new £1 coin? 1005 The President: I call on the Minister for Treasury, Mr Cannan.
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The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, the Isle of Man Government currently has no plans to create its own 12-sided £1 coin, although it may be considered in the 1010 future.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you Minister; and thank you Mr President. 1015 Does the current contract with the company which mints the pound coins prevent us accepting the offer?
The President: Minister.
1020 The Minister: I am not aware that there are any restrictions as to why we could not proceed with this offer but, as I said, I currently have no plans to do so at present, Mr President.
The President: Mr Speaker.
1025 The Speaker: Is it fair to say the Minister will be sitting on a big stack of unused £1 coins that will not yet have been in circulation and there will be certain logistical difficulties in the transition, as indeed was faced by the UK?
The President: Minister. 1030 The Minister: I am sorry, could the Hon. Member repeat that please?
The Speaker: Is the Minister sitting on a large stockpile of round £1 coins at the moment, and is the reason for not moving ahead about the logistical difficulties of moving from the round 1035 pound to the 12-sided pound on Island?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: I am not aware of any logistical difficulties at all, but the transition from round 1040 pound to 12-sided coins, as far as the UK coins are concerned, has been handled extremely well and efficiently. I have been in regular contact with the Isle of Man Bank over the coin-sorting process and my understanding and feedback is that it has gone incredibly smoothly. So I see no problems at all in dealing with the transition that we are all going through in terms of old currency versus the introduction of 12-sided round pound coins and the retention 1045 of the Manx round pound coin.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. 1050 The UK pound coin is believed to really challenge counterfeit producers; the Manx pound coin appears to provide limited challenges. Are our officials monitoring these challenges?
The President: Minister.
1055 The Minister: Mr President, as UK round pound coins are no longer acceptable on the Isle of Man, fraudsters would have to specifically counterfeit a Manx £1 coin. Producers of fake £1 coins would then have to consider the additional cost and expense of supplying to the Island, along with the risk of being caught. In addition, fake round pound coins should normally be rejected by the relevant vending machines. ______569 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
1060 I have spoken to the Isle of Man Bank, as in my previous answer to the Hon. Speaker, and they have not had any counterfeit round £1 coins since the introduction of the 12-sided version. I remain confident that we will both continue to monitor the situation, and of course were there to be any evidence that counterfeit coins were in circulation then Treasury would have to consider its policy.
EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE
19. Speech and language therapy – Impact of lack of interventions in schools on teachers and children
The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Whether the lack of any speech and language interventions in schools at Key Stage 2 and above will put significant pressure on teachers; and what impact it will have on children in the long term?
1065 The President: We turn to Question 19. Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: whether the lack of any speech and language interventions in schools at Key Stage 2 and above will put significant 1070 pressure on teachers; and what impact it will have on children in the long term?
The President: I call on the Minister to reply. Mr Cregeen.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. 1075 My Department understands that as a result of increased demand and current issues with staffing, changes are planned for the Speech and Language Therapy Service of the Department of Health and Social Care, which will come into effect in spring 2019. As part of these changes, we welcome the fact that the service to children in early years will be prioritised. However, we understand that speech and language therapy intervention that is 1080 currently carried out in schools will be significantly reduced and that no new referrals will be accepted from pupils in Key Stage 2 or above. Early speech and language intervention is clearly important to schools, of course, and they will continue to offer support and development of speech and language and will be supported in doing so by the work of the Educational Psychology team. 1085 My Department has recently produced a guide document called ‘The Continuum of Learning and Inclusion’ to assist school staff in identifying and supporting special educational needs. This document contains a chapter on speech and language communication, which has been written in collaboration with the Speech and Language Therapy Service. The document includes a key indicators checklist to help identify language difficulties. There are also a number of strategies, 1090 adaptations and interventions that school staff will be expected to use as an intervention when issues have been identified. Schools also have a program called Speech and Language Link, which helps staff identify difficulties with understanding language, together with an associated program called Speech Link, which again identifies speech/sound difficulties. Both programs provide resources for 1095 intervention. I understand that the Speech and Language Therapy Service is continuing to offer face-to- face courses for Education staff to enhance their abilities to effectively support children with ______570 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
speech, language and communication difficulties in the classroom, allowing the children to access the curriculum. 1100 Mr President, I also had discussions as part of my discussions yesterday with a number of unions regarding this service and I would like to reassure Hon. Members that we will be in constant dialogue with the Department of Health and Social Care regarding this matter.
The President: Supplementary, Mrs Caine. 1105 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Minister for that reply. That information was in the letter that was circulated to schools saying it would come in the spring term, and as we have heard from the Hon. Minister for Health, there are some concerns that the speech and language therapists are 1110 already under a huge caseload. I would like to query with the Minister … While it is laudable that there is all this learning being made available to the teachers at the schools and that they have key checklists and there will be a number of strategies and interventions, my understanding is that quite often … Even if you take the 302 cases, that would put it at an average of nine or ten in each school of children 1115 who have this kind of additional need. Will the Department of Education be increasing the number of teaching assistants or resourcing teaching to meet the additional work that these teaching professionals are going to have to undertake with the special educational needs for children with speech and language and communication needs?
1120 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. As I said, we are working with our Psychology team on this and we are working with the Department, and I think it is a joint approach that we have to have on this. The Department will 1125 be working with the Department of Health and Social Care and the teachers will hopefully feed through to the Department, and the discussions that we will be having with the Department of Health and Social Care regarding this. It is very unfortunate circumstances that they are in, but we are hoping that the joint working that we have with the Department will hopefully be as smooth as possible, so that we can work 1130 through this.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. 1135 Would the Minister for Education agree with me that obviously the Speech and Language Therapy Service will be working very closely with teaching assistants in order to be able to provide support, particularly for those in Key Stage 2 and above, where the impact is seen? And would the Minister for Education also agree with me that one of the key things that we have done is the fact that this will prioritise those who, personally I believe, have the greatest 1140 need and the greatest demand, the early intervention within Reception and Key Stage 1?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1145 I am happy to agree with the Hon. Minister there. We are working on this together and hopefully if there are any other issues that are flagged up, then we can discuss these.
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TREASURY
20. Income Tax regime – Ensuring fairness and transparency
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Cretney, to ask the Treasury Minister:
What his policy is on ensuring the Income Tax regime on the Isle of Man is fair to all and transparent?
The President: Question 20. Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney.
1150 Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister: what is his policy on ensuring the Income Tax regime on the Isle of Man is fair to all and transparent?
The President: Minister for the Treasury, Mr Cannan, to reply. 1155 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, I am committed to ensuring that our Income Tax regime, whilst contributing sustainable Government revenue, is fair and administered in accordance with the statute approved by this Court. It must also support economic growth, including maintaining the Island’s competitiveness as an attractive place to 1160 live, work and carry out business. We must ensure transparency in the context of the regime being easy to understand and comply with. Furthermore we must continue to take all necessary steps in order that the Island’s reputation for transparency and effective exchange of information for tax purposes remains of the highest order.
1165 The President: Supplementary, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: In the context of providing the best public services, which I think we all are committed to, does he consider that the existing system is sustainable in the long term?
1170 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Mr President, yes, in short terms, I do consider that the system is sustainable in the long term, international events permitting. Let’s be absolutely clear that in the last two Budgets under this Government we have, very 1175 successfully I would suggest, raised personal allowances from £10,500 to £13,250, an increase of 26%, we have taken some 5,000 individuals out of the scope of Income Tax, and as a result of these measures almost all our families are better off by £350 if you are an individual or £700 in the case of a jointly assessed couple. In addition, we have written off £95 million from the MUA debt, reducing the bills for our customers, residents and consumers. We have increased Child 1180 Benefit over the last two Budgets. We have increased Employed Person’s Allowance over the last two Budgets. We have put another £1.5 million into pre-school credits, giving those particularly in lower-paid families better access to pre-schools. So I think, Mr President, that overall the Income Tax system is working; it is performing above budget. We have got more people in work, we are creating more jobs, we have reduced 1185 unemployment to some of its lowest levels for almost 20 years, and I think that the Income Tax system as it is currently standing is doing its job and is funding appropriately the public services necessary to maintain and keep this Island, and promote this Island as, a successful Island and one that will promote healthy living and be a good place to consider working, living and raising your children. ______572 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
1190 The President: Supplementary, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: I thank the Hon. Member for that update, which is obviously very helpful and is something which we all appreciate. Does he consider that the gap between ourselves and neighbouring jurisdictions in relation to 1195 standard families is narrowing more than it has done in the past?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Mr President, I am very conscious that the impact of the financial crisis in 2008 1200 and its subsequent knock-on effects in a number of areas has caused significant pressures on the cost of living for those in low- to middle-income families. Doing direct comparisons with specific regions is always difficult, but I think the important point is that we have recognised those pressures and are doing what we can to ensure that we are putting as much money back into the pockets of those families as possible – those individuals and those families. I think there is a 1205 clear level of concern in that area and that we have been pursuing clear policies, including other external policies such as raising the minimum wage requirements and discussions around the living wage, that we are pursuing policies that will help the Island maintain a progressive approach, trying to stay ahead of its competition, particularly when comparing like for like with certain regions within the United Kingdom.
21. Employed Person’s Allowance – Department data held
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Treasury Minister:
What data his Department holds in respect of reasons why people who claim Employed Person’s Allowance are not able to work additional hours?
1210 The President: Question 21, Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister what data his Department holds in respect of reasons why people who claim Employed Person’s Allowance are not able to work additional 1215 hours?
The President: Minister for Treasury.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, the Treasury does not hold any 1220 data as to the reasons why people claiming Employed Person’s Allowance do not work more than the number of hours that they currently do. When claiming EPA customers are required only to tell us about the number of hours that they actually work; providing the claimant meets the minimum work requirements and all other entitlement conditions are satisfied then the claim is awarded. 1225 The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Treasury Minister not think that when proposing policies that would essentially 1230 require groups of people claiming Employed Person’s Allowance to work double the required ______573 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
number of hours in order to still be eligible for benefits, it would be helpful to understand perhaps some of the reasons why they are not doing so already?
The President: Minister for Treasury. 1235 The Minister: Mr President, getting people to explain in such a detailed manner why they are not doing more hours than they currently are is incredibly difficult. I have had direct cases in the last week since this issue rose up, if you like, where I have spoken to employers who tell me they have offered claimants more hours and those claimants have simply responded that they do not 1240 want to jeopardise their EPA allowance as it currently stands. On the other hand, an individual may well believe that they need to spend time with their children at particular ages. So there is a vast array of reasons. Now, an exercise along these lines was conducted a couple of years ago and I can tell you it was vastly time consuming and produced not enough substance in terms of real data as to why 1245 people chose to claim EPA for certain amounts, or just to do minimum hours as opposed to doing more hours than they possibly could.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.
1250 The Speaker: Could I ask the Treasury Minister if he would make that report available specifically to inform the work of the Poverty Committee going forward?
The President: Minister.
1255 The Minister: Mr President, I will happily speak to the officers involved and try and produce whatever documentation they have from that exercise, which I think was carried out a couple of years ago.
22. Single parents’ limited working hours – Data held by Treasury
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Treasury Minister:
What data his Department holds on the reasons why single parents with children aged between seven and 12 claiming Income Support do not work more than 16 hours a week?
The President: Question 22. Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.
1260 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. A very similar Question for the Treasury Minister: what data does his Department hold on the reasons why single parents with children aged between seven and 12 claiming Income Support do not work more than 16 hours a week?
1265 The President: Minister.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, to be clear, a lone parent is only eligible to claim Income Support solely on the basis that they are a lone parent if they are responsible for at least one child under 12 for whom they get Child Benefit, and they would not 1270 be eligible for Income Support if they worked for 16 or more hours a week.
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A lone parent claiming Income Support may be invited to participate in a work-focused conversation with an employment adviser at the Job Centre if their youngest child is age five or over. The purpose of the work-focused conversation is to ascertain what plans the lone parent has to prepare themselves for work or to look for work, and to discuss with them any actual or 1275 perceived barriers to work and to establish what help can be provided. Between September and December of last year, employment advisers at the Job Centre invited all lone parents claiming Income Support whose youngest child was aged between five and 11 to meet with them and participate in a work-focused conversation. Forty-seven of the 115 lone parents who were invited to participate in a work-focused conversation attended. 1280 Perceived barriers to employment highlighted by the lone parents during their work-focused conversations included childcare, difficulty finding part-time or school-hours employment, transport issues and a lack of information about alternative support such as EPA. Employment advisers will continue to invite lone parents claiming Income Support to participate in work-focused conversations and are committed to providing whatever help they 1285 can – which may include training or retraining – and will continue to highlight the availability of Employed Person’s Allowance, illustrating how much better off lone parents will be if they return to work. The employment advisers are also planning engagement activities with local employers and the childcare sector in order to discuss some of the perceived barriers that have been raised. 1290 The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: I would like to thank the Treasury Minister for that quite helpful Answer. One very brief follow-up: does he know how many of those job-focused interviews led on to 1295 those people actually taking up more full-time work?
The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Mr President, I could try and find that exact figure for you, but what I can tell 1300 you is that of the 115 lone parents who were invited to attend, 47 attended; 68 not did not bother to reply or indicate why they could not attend such an interview. Sorry, I apologise. Let me rephrase that. Of the 68 who did not attend, 37 made no contact, 24 phoned and explained they were not fit to work or did not feel they needed any help, and seven phoned to advise they were in full-time education. 1305 Of the 47 who attended, 34 were deemed suitable for employment and appeared engaged and motivated to work with the Job Centre team, nine did not want to find employment due to medical and health issues, four were deemed suitable for employment but did not want to find employment or receive any help at this time.
23. Employed Person’s Allowance and Income Support – Department data held; sufficient flexible work available
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Treasury Minister:
What data his Department holds that there is sufficient flexible work available in the job market to accommodate those people affected by his proposed changes to Employed Person’s Allowance and Income Support?
The President: Question 23, Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.
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1310 Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister what data his Department holds that there is sufficient flexible work available in the job market to accommodate those people affected by his proposed changes to Employed Person’s Allowance and Income Support?
1315 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, at the end of December 2018 there were 340 full-time and 106 part-time vacancies registered with the Jobcentre; at least half of these required no qualifications and a third required no experience. There will almost 1320 certainly be further opportunities for work not registered with the Jobcentre via employers. At the same time, registered unemployment stood at 354 – an unemployment rate just 0.8%; and indeed the Island’s unemployment rate has been at or below 1% for well over a year. Mr President, I am aware that part-time vacancies exist across various sectors including cleaning services, driving, healthcare, customer service, hospitality and catering administration, 1325 and retail, childcare and education. Employment advisers at the Jobcentre are available and keen to provide personalised advice, support and assistance to all jobseekers, including identifying the vacancies which may be appropriate to an individual’s circumstances or desires.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper. 1330 Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. I would just like to ask the Treasury Minister how he manages to reconcile the view that Treasury clearly holds, that there is sufficient flexible work out there for everyone who wants it, with responses to, for example, the Social Attitudes Survey which identified a significant number 1335 of people who were actively looking and willing to engage in more work and were finding obstacles such as unavailability of hours – feedback which has then been reinforced by the actual direct experience that his Department has received from the job-focused interviews he has just told us about?
1340 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Mr President, the system works two ways. Admittedly, there are some who will say that the work is not out there and there are others, including employers, who will tell us face-to-face that they have got additional hours and indeed have offered people those 1345 additional hours and that they have been declined. I would suggest that from the state perspective, the distribution of welfare support, it is absolutely right I think that when – and this is the key issue in this particular case, I think – the youngest child reaches 13 years of age, we are talking about them going from 16 hours a week to 30 hours a week. The support mechanisms within the Social Security and Jobcentre are that 1350 workplace conversations are available. Obviously the relationship between the Jobcentre and employers is absolutely vital, and as I said we have significant numbers of vacancies registered at the Jobcentre for both part-time and full-time work. Now, whilst there is onus on the Jobcentre and Social Security, there is also onus on an individual to make every single effort that they can to get out and try and find the appropriate 1355 level of work, even if that means looking at different jobs. What we are trying to do is to make sure that we are in a position to help people and to facilitate that as much as we possibly can. But there is also an onus on the individual concerned – as there is an onus on everybody in society to take responsibility for their own careers and to get out and find work. I do not think that is an unreasonable request and certainly the reasons why this Hon. Court 1360 has taken positive steps, I think, in terms of relaxing work permits, for example, is because the information we have is that the job requirements, the pressures on hospitality and catering, for ______576 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
example, to find staff to come in and do flexible work, the demand is there. And given the unemployment levels, given the demand for staff and given the current success indicators from the economy then I think there is enough evidence for us to reasonably expect that there are 1365 opportunities. Therefore the advisers in the Jobcentre and the individuals should work closely together to try and resolve that. The other point I would raise, particularly when talking about this issue – a proposed issue, because nothing has actually been accepted yet, but the proposals were about 16 to 30 hours – is that you will have noted in the consultation there was an initial thought that people should do 1370 24 hours when their child reached six years old, and you will note that Social Security Treasury wrote back from that, given the consultation responses, and accepted a lot of the feedback. Therefore, in saying that someone is going to have to move from 16 hours to 30 hours, you have effectively got seven years to recognise that if you are going to claim EPA for that length of time, or you are going to claim Income Support, that when your child reaches 13 years of age we 1375 would reasonably expect you to do more for society in return for the support mechanism that you are receiving. So I think the onus is on both parties, both on the Social Security and Jobcentre to do its job to help people, retrain people and talk to employers, but also an individual must take some responsibility for ensuring that they are ready and prepared to increase their hours of work or 1380 indeed to get back to work.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. 1385 I wonder whether the Treasury Minister can enlighten me at all. In his clear pursuit of trying to create a more flexible and responsive system around these various matters, is he able to indicate to me what it is that has us fixed at this 16-hour figure, at this anchor point at 16 hours? What does it mean? Where did it come from? What is its value? Does he not consider that perhaps in his quite reasonable pursuit of flexibility that has value 1390 for both the employee and the employer, that this arbitrary 16-hour anchor is in fact an impediment? I am personally at a loss to understand why this figure of 16 hours was arrived at in the first place. Where did it come from? What does it mean?
The President: Minister to reply. 1395 The Minister: Well, I was hoping that the former Minister for Health and Social Security might be in a better position to answer that question actually, given that he was there and was part of this Employed Person’s Allowance 16 hours. Mr President, I am unable to give a specific reply as to why 16 hours was initially identified by officers and by parliamentarians and accepted 1400 as a base. But whatever the historical connotations, what I would say is that it seems to me to be a reasonable balance for somebody whose child is over six years old and wants to claim Employed Person’s Allowance, to find at least just over three hours work a day, if you took that through the standard working week, Monday to Friday. It is not a lot to ask. I can certainly look back in terms of the history of this, but again there is a chance for some 1405 Hon. Members to feed back in now because we will not be intending to come back with these proposals until May, for Hon. Members to feed in if they think now that the 16 hours per se should be adjusted upwards or downwards. And I will look back and try and respond to the Hon. Member in terms of when in history 16 hours was decided as an appropriate level for Employed Person’s Allowance. 1410 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President. ______577 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
The Treasury Minister is obviously aiming to strike a difficult balance in a full employment 1415 situation between individual responsibility and collective support. In doing that, will he recognise the particular challenges around school holidays and the additional challenges that those bring for parents? We have seen it with holiday hunger where everybody carries on okay during the school term, but then the school holidays come along and create additional challenges and issues. Clearly that is going to be similar where people are trying to balance work 1420 commitments and childcare, especially where families do not have extended support. So would the Treasury Minister consider this when reflecting what proposals to bring forward in May?
The President: Minister to reply. 1425 The Minister: In bringing forward proposals, I do not think it is possible to solve every single conundrum that the Government or society is currently dealing with. Now, school holidays have been around for decades and I mean only recently has the conversation around support in school holidays come to the fore, shall we say, although I am sure it has been around in some 1430 form previously. I think the point is that not every situation can be catered for and that we have to act in a manner that is fair and appropriate. I think we have taken the view with these proposals that from 13 – and I am just going to focus on that because that is really predominantly where the impact that I think the Hon. Member is talking about, comes in. So from the age of 13, to a 1435 certain extent, children are capable of spending some short periods without adult supervision; and certainly in the case of my son, who has just turned 14, but for the last year I know he comes home from school by himself and he is perfectly capable of letting himself and perfectly capable of making a sandwich or raiding the biscuit tin or doing whatever they do at 13 years of age – 1440 Mr Cretney: I have got a three-year-old that can do that! (Laughter)
The Minister: – and is able to support himself until a relevant parent can get back, given that both parents are working. I know from his friends, many of whom I see on a regular basis, and 1445 their parents, that many parents are in a similar situation and have to work through the school holidays system as best they can. And of course many parents will seek – particularly if they are couples, obviously, and lone parents – to take holidays during that appropriate time. Now, I appreciate for lone parents it does get a bit more complicated, but also one has to recognise that we have this problem throughout society, not just for those on EPA but for those 1450 on lower incomes who are not claiming benefits, and yet whose tax money is in theory feeding into the system that is supporting individuals who are receiving welfare benefits. So I think there has got to be a fairness throughout society. I think the answer to this question is that it is a broader issue, Mr President, one that is actually multidisciplinary in terms of going across Departments, and I would look at both Social 1455 Security and I would talk to the Department for Enterprise, and possibly the Department of Health and Social Care. So I would hope more broadly that this issue can be looked at collectively across Government, but I do not perceive this as an issue that should necessarily block this reform unless Hon. Members feel that they do not want to take these reforms forward in due course. 1460 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I am not sure why, but we seem to be equating flexible work with lower-paid work and we 1465 seem to be talking about lone parents and the necessity to retrain. Would the Minister agree ______578 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
that flexible work need not necessarily be low paid, and actually encouraging flexibility of professional work and all types of work might be part of the answer? Thank you.
1470 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Mr President, I certainly agree with the Hon. Member that, yes, we are tending to think that this is low-paid work, and I suppose that in thinking that one would, I guess, perhaps unfairly categorise some of these individuals as unskilled workers. And you are quite 1475 right, not everybody is an unskilled worker and could quite easily potentially find skilled employment. What I would say, in slightly broadening out the answer to the question, is that we have done the maths and I will present this to Hon. Members, but people are going to be better off, once their child reaches 13, getting into work, and even in the lowest case scenario earning £8 an 1480 hour, just over the minimum wage, a lone parent would be even better off, we think, by about £54 a week, £2,827 per annum, and that is with everything currently taken versus where they would be if they took on the additional hours. So being in work provides a significant number of benefits, but this is really also not just about the financial side of life but also about being fair and appropriate both to the welfare recipient and also to the taxpayer, effectively, who is 1485 supporting that welfare recipient.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. 1490 I think what is coming through very clearly to me, and I hope the Treasury Minister would agree with this, is that there is an apparent mismatch between supply and demand in our labour market; and underemployment itself as an issue is not particularly well understood by Government. We only have a very incomplete picture of the issues surrounding underemployment. I think the Treasury Minister identifying this as a complex and wide-ranging 1495 issue is quite helpful. I would just ask him to consider instead of bringing forward revised proposals in isolation, making changes simply to the benefit system, that maybe this should form part of a slightly larger piece of work involving other Government Departments and agencies, to make sure that the real issues are addressed (Two Members: Hear, hear.) and that we can actually help people 1500 get back into work in a sustainable manner.
Mr Cretney: I think it is supposed to be joined up, this, is it?
The President: Minister. 1505 The Minister: Well, Mr President, I think we are helping people get back into work. All the figures are suggesting that we are helping people get back into work. I understand, I hear what the Hon. Member is saying, but my experience of politics is that if you try to solve all the world’s issues you will actually never, ever go anywhere and at some 1510 point you have to start taking steps forward that are reasonable. I think part of this is not only an education process, obviously, and we need to ensure that when we are speaking with parents in these situations who are doing Employed Person’s Allowance, that we are preparing them well in advance for the fact that their hours are going to change; but we also need to be working with employers as well to understand their requirements and promoting additional and innovative 1515 ways of working – and job sharing is one example that I would certainly use in terms of the way that this could be applied.
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I think that you have to sometimes, Mr President, act in a manner which is reasonable and fair, accepting in this case if you accept that a child from 13 years of age means that they in theory require less parental direct support, and that working from six up until the age of 13 1520 parents can do literally 16 hours a week in order to get additional benefits into their family, and of course those benefits reflect in society. But I think what we need to do is ensure that we are doing everything possible and that is reasonable to find the solutions; and if in due course it emerges that in fact the situation has changed and there is not the flexibility in requirements in the employment sector, in the economy, then we also need to do other measures. So we may 1525 need, for example, to tighten up on work permits if we are finding that the availability of jobs for our own people, which we are being told at the moment is at very high levels, is not actually there. So I think at certain points you have to take steps forward. I also perhaps would like to say that sometimes with these measures and in politics it is a bit like physics, with every action there 1530 is an equal and opposite reaction somewhere and sometimes you have to pick up that reaction and then deal with that as you progress.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker.
1535 Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President. I think the Treasury Minister has hit on a really important point from this series of questions that actually there is a broader issue at work here, (The Speaker: Yes.) and he has touched on what he has described as the balance between work and family commitments; and he indicated that it needs a multidisciplinary approach across Departments and that is where Government 1540 often struggles. (Mr Cretney: Hear, hear.) So when he indicated that he would hope this would be more collectively looked at, we are clearly hoping it is not a strategy. So will he undertake to pick this up with his Council of Ministers’ colleagues and actually have a conversation about how we can move forward in this important area of work-life balance?
1545 Two Members: Hear, hear.
The President: Minister to reply.
Mr Cretney: Get Chris to do it, he’s doing nothing else! 1550 The Minister: Mr President, I think that it is fair to say … I do not think it is a hope. I mean, I am aware that this issue has already been raised in this Hon. Court and indeed I think by implication it is effectively in the Programme for Government. It is certainly something I am very happy to discuss with the Council of Ministers in terms of facilities around the summer holidays 1555 in particular, which is the main issue that a lot of parents face, and whether we are providing and facilitating enough in the way of opportunities. Certainly there are two material issues, it seems to me. First of all, the issue of hunger and to make sure that is being appropriately looked at, and to make sure that children in particular are being properly fed; and of course the availability of facilities during those holidays and the cost 1560 of such facilities. But certainly I know that there is a lot of provision, for example, at the NSC during school holidays – lots of programmes and always a well-laid-out programme and I congratulate the relevant Department for that. But we have got to make sure that some of those are perhaps spread a little bit more across the Island so that parents in the outlying regions can also access these types of opportunities relatively easily. 1565 So I am very happy to commit to picking up this conversation within the Council of Ministers and in due course feeding back as to what type of progress has been made. But also I do want to emphasise this, Mr President, because we are not a nanny state and there is also an onus on society to ensure that individuals who are in these circumstances are pulling their weight. ______580 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
Parents have been pulling their weight for years to make sure that in the school holidays 1570 children are facilitated and looked after, and a lot of those parents are on low incomes and may not necessarily be in the EPA system, but are having to work both using family support and the opportunities being made available by the relevant agencies on the ground.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Speaker. 1575 The Speaker: Thank you. Just to build on the points that have been made – and I accept a lot of what the Treasury Minister has said and look forward to his presentation – I think there is a danger here of looking at this through our own personal experiences. 1580 I suppose the question I want to put to the Treasury Minister is: does he accept that not all 13-year-olds are the same, and that there is likely to be a gap between those who will be able to claim for medium and higher-level disability living allowance on the one hand, and yet there is still a big gap between those and others who perhaps parents would not be comfortable leaving them to their own devices at home, whether that is at term-time or in the school holidays? Just 1585 to pick up one element of the complexity of this, but I am happy to leave it … But that is the question that I think I want to pose to the Minister at this point.
The President: Minister.
1590 The Minister: Well, Mr President, I think that the Hon. Speaker is referring to Disability Allowance and special circumstances, and I think that if you would have a look at what the proposals are we were not seeking to materially impact those parents, or lone parents particularly, who had those sorts of scenarios. In fact my view was that there was no change at all for lone parents with disabled children – 1595 The Speaker: It is on the Question.
The Minister: – in terms of the hours that they had to work for –
1600 The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: I am sorry, Mr President. I think I may have rambled so as to make the question incoherent. The question was: does the Minister accept there is a big gap between those who are on the medium level of disability but who may still not be ... it might not be appropriate to 1605 leave them to their own devices in their own home? Not all 13-year-olds have that capability, that independence, that resourcefulness to be able to look after themselves in that circumstance but may still not be eligible for medium or high-level DLA.
The President: Reply, sir. 1610 The Minister: My recollection, Mr President, in those circumstances there was no change to the current requirements for parents who are claiming middle or upper level (The Speaker: No.) Disability Living Allowance.
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24. Treasury consultation – Publishing of response; allotted time for Members to review
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Treasury Minister:
Why he chose to publish a consultation response a year after it closed, and to allow Tynwald Members fewer than four working days to digest its contents before making a decision on a related matter?
The President: Question 24, Hon. Member, Mr Speaker. 1615 The Speaker: Thank you. Again, noting and appreciating the Treasury Minister has withdrawn Items 15 and 16, and I thank him for that, I ask why he chose to publish a consultation response a year after it closed, and to allow Tynwald Members fewer than four working days to digest its contents before 1620 making a decision on a related matter?
The President: Treasury Minister.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, as you are aware, the consultation 1625 document has now been published. I hope Hon. Members will take the time now – the additional time – to feed back if they have some feedback on the response document. As the Hon. Member who raised this Question points out, I have withdrawn Items 15 and 16. I am committed to providing Hon. Members with more information about the impact of the proposed changes in the coming weeks. 1630 Mr President, in terms of the progress of this, I have to admit it has lost some of its momentum in the 12 months. I apologise for the momentum that was lost. We should have published the consultation response at an earlier stage, but as I said, recognising that, I think we have taken appropriate and sensible action to therefore delay these reforms for a few months to be able to provide further information to allow people the time to digest the consultation 1635 response.
The President: Hon. Members, that brings us to the conclusion of Questions for Oral Answer.
Announcement of Royal Assent – Abortion Reform Act 2019; European Union and Trade Act 2019; Marriage Measure (Isle of Man) 2019
The President: Hon. Members, I can announce that Royal Assent has today been given to the Abortion Reform Act 2019, (Several Members: Hear, hear.) the European Union and Trade Act 1640 2019 and the Marriage Measure (Isle of Man) 2019.
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Questions for Written Answer
TREASURY
25. Debt collection – Plan for improvements
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Treasury Minister:
What progress has been made on the Programme for Government Action: Set out a plan to improve the way debts are identified, collected and monitored which had a target date of April 2018 and is reported as Green in the latest status report and when this plan will be published?
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): I am pleased to confirm that the Treasury has already set out its plan to improve the way debts are identified, collected and monitored, in fulfilment of the quoted action in the Programme for Government. 1645 This plan was set out in page 9 of the response document for the collection of civil debt (phase 1) consultation, which ran until 5th January 2018. The consultation response document was published on 15th February 2018 – a month and a half prior to the target date set out in the Programme for Government. This document is still available from the Government’s consultation website, should the 1650 Hon. Member wish to view it. The Treasury is now finalising a draft Bill in respect of phase 1 of the civil debt collection project, which will shortly be subject to full consultation. A final Bill will be introduced to the Legislative Branches in the current parliamentary session.
26. Supporting people returning to work – Progress
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Treasury Minister:
What progress has been made on the Programme for Government Action: Change the way we help people get back to work by establishing clearer support pathways which had a target date of April 2018 and is reported as Amber in the latest status report?
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): With effect from 24th November 2016, the Job 1655 Centre was transferred from the former Department of Economic Development to the Treasury, specifically the Social Security Division. The Job Centre and Social Security benefit teams are now working much more closely than before to introduce and develop systems of support for people out of work, combining financial support, with meaningful and effective employment support, training and guidance. 1660 The Job Centre continues to work with anyone who requires support in obtaining, securing or sustaining work, irrespective of their situation or work position. People claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance are engaged with at the earliest opportunity in order to provide them with help and support with their job search, before any significant decline in their employability. If necessary, they are also given help to improve their prospects of getting
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1665 work, for example through training or re-training. Jobseekers who have specific health or disability issues receive expert support from the Job Centre’s Disability Employment Advisors. The Job Centre continues to raise its profile by maintaining a Facebook page, highlighting the range of services available and any upcoming recruitment initiatives, events or drives. Job Centre clients benefit from access to both in-house and external training, for example 1670 with work placements, one-to-one advice, interview technique, CV preparation, help with making job applications and job searches, and various supported employment initiatives. Treasury intends to bring proposals to Tynwald which will encourage certain people claiming EPA as well as certain lone parents getting income support to progress through a pathway to work, during which they will be supported to work (at least) part-time while their children are 1675 young, but encouraged to increase their hours of work – and therefore improve their outcomes – as their children get older. Treasury has already started to engage with lone parents who are getting income support whose children are aged five or over and will continue to engage with them in the future. Tynwald has approved legislation which requires a person entitled to any of the following 1680 benefits to take part in a ‘work-focused conversation’ – • Income Support; • Incapacity Benefit; • Employed Person’s Allowance.
1685 A partner of a person entitled to any of the following benefits may also be required to take part in a “work focused conversation” – • Income Support; • Income Based Jobseeker’s Allowance; • Incapacity Benefit; and 1690 • Employed Person’s Allowance.
The purpose of the work-focused conversation is to ascertain what plans the person has to prepare themselves for work or to look for work, to discuss with them any actual or perceived barriers to work and to establish what help can be provided to them. 1695 As regards people claiming incapacity-related benefits, officers from Social Security and Occupational Health have collaborated to devise a new initiative to help people who are off work sick to return to work. The pilot programme will begin this summer and will initially be staffed by contract health professionals. Participation in the pilot programme will be on an entirely voluntary basis, which will afford the opportunity for Treasury and the Department for 1700 Health and Social Care to fully evaluate the programme and make any necessary changes before establishing a permanent programme.
27. Capital and regeneration schemes – Review of financing
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Treasury Minister:
What the outcome was of the completed Programme for Government Action: Review and consider public/private approaches to financing capital and regeneration schemes and whether the review will be published?
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): This topic has been considered through both SAVE and as part of the Programme for Government. In January 2018 Tynwald agreed to a Select Committee considering this, which reported back to Tynwald in July 2018. The Select Committee ______584 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
1705 report (PP2018/0106) identified a range of options for financing which may be considered in appropriate circumstances and is available on the Tynwald website.
POLICY AND REFORM
28. Year of Our Island – Details of grants provided each month
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
As part of the Year of Our Island how much was provided in grants in each month; who benefited from these payments; and how much was paid to each recipient?
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Year of Our Island Grant Funding Throughout 2018 the Year of Our Island Grants Board met every two months to review applications and recommend funding to the Political Board based around the applicants meeting 1710 one or more of the set criteria which were: - Quality of Life - National Pride - Stronger Partnerships
1715 Up to a maximum of £6,000 was available for new events and projects with up to £3,000 available for existing events. A total of £418,670.76 was applied for with £74,411 issued to date. 92 applications were received over the course of the year, with 45 given funding approval. Out of those 45 applications: 1720 21 applications were for new events for 2018 10 applications were to enable enhancements to existing events for 2018 14 applications were for community or art based projects Where an application did not meet the required criteria, applicants were offered feedback on their application. Applicants were not restricted from applying again if they were unsuccessful in 1725 their first bid and in some cases support was provided in other ways, for example, by way of promotion through Year of Our Island or by referral to another organisation.
Ref No Name of Project/Event Amount Granted Funding Round A 1 Festival of Returning Light £1,000 6 Our Island, Our World £6,000 7 The Celtic Gathering £2,000 8 Isle of Man Art Festival £1,000 10 Peel Festival of Fire £3,000 11 Land Art Trail £5,000 Funding Round B £18,000 1 Mindful Mann 2018 £500 4 Gefechella £500 5 Manannan’s Winterfest £3,000 6 Showing of ‘A Plastic World’ £300
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8 Seawatch, Public Talk £2,185
Ffynlo, Patch and the Magical 10 Manx Half Term £1,000 Cathedral Gardens 12 Regeneration Project £4,000 Funding Round C £11,485 1 The Great Manx Shin Dig £4,000 2 Celebrating Manx Birds 2018 £1,500 Alpha Centre Transport for 6 Event £500 Creative Writing and Nature 7 Workshops at the Hub £2,500 Conrhenny Trail Ongoing 8 Development legacy work Archibald Knox – Artist, 9 Designer, Teacher £4,000 10 Foxdale Heritage Trail £1,000 12 Strictly Manx 2018 £500 13 Summer slam 94 £2,500 Isle of Man Film Festival: 14 Movies, Music and Mark £1,500 17 Island at War £675 Isle of Play Adventure 18 Playground £3,300 20* Kate’s Race - Sea to Summit See below 21 Peel Carnival £646 Funding Round D £22,621 1 Romance at the River £660 2 The Talking Bench £1,500 Isle of Man Film Festival: 5 £1,995 Music, Movies and Mark Isle of Man Traditional 9 Weekend See below Funding Round E £4,155 2 Isle of Architecture 2018 £650 3 M is for Manx Cat £1,000 4 Cybercenturion Competition £1,500 Map Areas of Orienteering 6 and Set Up Markers £2,000 7 Nightmare Nights £2,000 8 Rainy Play Days £700 Funding Round F £7,850 Great Laxey Mine Railway 0 Hop tu Naa Event £1000 IOM Astronomical Society 4 Public Outreach Events £600 5 Rushen Youth Club £900 6 Balladarree Improvements £700 8 The Young Bard £1500 9 The Irish Sea Centre £500
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Pulrose Youth and Community Redevelopment 11 Project £1000 13 Friends of the Neb £2000 15 Story Tent £1000 Balley Cashtal Beg Christmas 24 Grotto and Activities £500 25 A Day in the Life £600 £10,300
Total Requested: £418,670.76
Total Granted: £74,411
Note *C8 Grant Funding Committee did not support project but instead is supporting initiative as legacy work *C20 Grant Funding Committee supported partial funding but applicant did not accept *D9 Grant Funding Committee did not support funding but Visit Isle of Man provided support
EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE
29. School student numbers – Projected figures for 2019-2024
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What the projected school student numbers on roll for each school from September 2019 to 2024 are; and if he will make a statement?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): At this point in the year, it is not possible to get precise information about the numbers of pupils registered even for the coming school year. In order for the Department to allocate its staffing, schools are asked to 1730 predict pupil numbers in the spring term. Such numbers are subject to frequent revision, before the start of (and even into) the academic year. Numbers for coming years are even more difficult to determine. Schools are able to use census data to gain a picture of likely future numbers and this indicates falls in numbers of primary age pupils in Douglas, Onchan, Michael and Marown with increases in Castletown, Peel 1735 and Arbory. However, decisions about pupils entering primary schools are sometimes not finalised until quite late before the start of school, parents may move house and housing development may take place – all of which will alter projected numbers. Of course, for two of the years suggested by the timespan above, pupils will not have been born. Nonetheless, provided as follows are the projected pupil numbers for each primary school for 1740 the next five years, omitting numbers from the September 2019 Reception intake and subsequent intakes. Clearly this will appear to indicate that numbers are reducing because no future pupils have been included in the data.
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2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 Anagh Coar 110 93 75 59 42 27 Andreas 80 69 46 32 26 11 Arbory 145 123 101 75 46 19 Ashley Hill 214 170 128 103 70 31 Ballacottier 213 171 129 89 71 32 Ballasalla 81 58 49 38 25 11 Ballaugh 55 46 35 29 19 7 Braddan 123 99 77 53 31 13 Bunscoill 435 352 282 214 140 55 Rhumsaa Cronk Y Berry 283 226 180 136 81 35 Dhoon 58 45 35 24 14 11 Foxdale 75 62 53 35 21 8 Henry Bloom 317 274 208 155 107 52 Noble Jurby 50 39 26 19 13 6 Kewaigue 95 78 65 50 30 16 Laxey 160 131 109 77 53 33 Manor Park 84 75 55 42 29 15 Marown 157 126 102 76 43 23 Michael 104 84 64 43 27 14 Onchan 366 299 244 176 116 49 Peel 402 326 253 190 126 53 Clothworkers Phurt le 136 115 90 65 37 19 Moirrey Rushen 243 209 166 131 96 48 Scoill Yn 354 290 238 180 108 58 Jubilee St John’s 108 87 67 47 36 17 St Mary’s RC 227 178 135 96 64 29 St Thomas’ 44 40 30 26 11 6 Sulby 140 109 89 67 41 22 Vallajeelt 176 147 118 81 51 25 Victoria Road 220 178 151 112 69 35 Willaston 158 130 94 67 41 14
The Department has greater confidence that it can predict numbers for secondary schools and, in most cases, schools use pupil numbers in ‘feeder’ primaries to predict trends. However, 1745 the Department keeps catchment areas under regular review and the destination secondary school for six of the primary schools is at the discretion of parents. Along with unpredictable sixth form numbers, building development and other demographic changes, this also means that precise numbers would be difficult to achieve. The following table shows the numbers that would attend each secondary school if all pupils 1750 from current feeder primary schools attended and do not include numbers for sixth form students, any pupils from the four schools (Ballaugh, Foxdale, Kewaigue, Laxey) in which parents have a choice between two secondary schools and pupils from Bunscoill Ghaelgagh, St Mary’s or St Thomas’.
2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 BHS 1223 1172 1087 967 963 940 CRHS 668 662 664 702 683 673 QE2 647 669 653 640 654 613 RGS 718 709 682 659 659 610 SNHS 1052 1097 1163 1191 1189 1117
In short, any predictions of projected school student numbers as requested above are 1755 difficult or impossible to gather, very unreliable, partial or subject to considerable change. ______588 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
30. HSC Research and Development – Progress on governance framework
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What progress has been made on the Programme for Government Action: Embed a robust governance framework for Research and Development activity, whilst improving the quality of research applications and associated outcomes?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): The Department of Health and Social Care tracks current year progress against each of its 16 Programme for Government actions. A consolidated summary of progress against each of these is prepared and reported against on a quarterly basis through the Department’s governance structure. 1760 The Department provides a quarterly update on its main website as part of a more detailed report on delivery against its annual service delivery plan. The Research and Development Unit is on track with its recruitment activity, with the latest addition to the team assuming responsibility for further developing research governance and the processing of research applications. 1765 There is a ‘pathway to research’ in place which has three stages of approval (Research & Development approval, Isle of Man Research Ethics Committee approval and DHSC approval). The new ethics committee (the IOMREC) has been recruited and received its initial training. IOMREC’s first meeting is scheduled for January 2019. A costing mechanism for research undertaken in the DHSC has been developed and is in use. 1770 An online portal for research applications is in development with testing of this system planned for March 2019. Once this system is launched, work will commence on the development of a research management system to allow research projects to be better tracked and managed. These two systems will link together, providing an audit trail for research from application to completion. 1775 Work has also commenced to bring together records of clinical audit, quality improvement and research work into one shared area to help with the identification of any gaps in knowledge and enable better communication and use of information across the Department. A research stakeholder event was held in November in which staff from across the DHSC, members of the IOMREC, and interested parties from other Government Departments and 1780 stakeholders were invited to discuss the development of three key areas of good research practice – Public and Patient Involvement and Engagement, Impact, and Peer Review. These conversations were captured throughout the day and the content analysed to produce a report which highlighted five key areas which the R&D Unit need to develop to deliver excellent research in a robust governance framework: 1785 1. An individual approach to research 2. Efficiency 3. Transparency and clear communication 4. Excellence and reflexivity 1790 5. Local and global networks
These five areas will form the basis of the plan for R&D over the coming year, with work planned in line with these priorities.
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31. Moving services from hospital into community – Progress made
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What progress has been made on the Programme for Government Action: Move more services from the hospital into the community so care is provided closer to peoples’ homes?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): The Department of Health and Social 1795 Care tracks current-year progress against each of its 16 Programme for Government actions. A consolidated summary of progress against each of these is prepared and reported against on a quarterly basis through the Department’s governance structure. The Department provides a quarterly update on its main website as part of a more detailed report on delivery against its annual service delivery plan. 1800 Capacity and new model planning for increased provision in the community setting is vital for success of this action. A key enabler for this will include the updating of new GP contracts. A multidisciplinary Advisory Committee for Primary Care was established in late 2018 and a Primary Care Strategy will be developed in 2019 through the work of the Advisory Committee. This Programme for Government action requires significant enabling work; which is reflected in 1805 the agreed timeframe for its implementation (i.e. by 2021).
32. On-Island and off-Island service provision – Progress on definition
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What progress has been made on the Programme for Government Action: Define the services which will be provided on-Island and those which will be provided off-Island?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): The Department of Health and Social Care tracks current year progress against each of its 16 Programme for Government actions. A consolidated summary of progress against each of these is prepared and reported against on a quarterly basis through the Department’s governance structure. 1810 The Department provides a quarterly update on its main website as part of a more detailed report on delivery against its annual service delivery plan. Little progress has been made with this action; partly because it is linked so closely to the review being carried out by Sir Jonathan Michael, which is expected to be reported to Tynwald in May. However, progress has been made with one of our off-Island partners, Clatterbridge, who 1815 have expressed a willingness to work with us on an entire end-to-end service in a true partnership by adopting agreed clinical pathways and protocols; whether care is delivered on or off Island. The DHSC received a proposal from Clatterbridge at the end of December, setting out a joint working strategy for the management of patients; this is currently being considered by the 1820 Department’s Executive Leadership Team.
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HOME AFFAIRS
33. Winter road safety campaign in last five years – Details of vehicles stopped
The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Shimmins) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:
In each of the last five years during the winter road safety campaign targeting vehicles, a) how many vehicles were stopped, and b) how many defects were reported?
The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Malarkey): The Isle of Man Constabulary does not hold the requested data in a format that would allow the Question to be answered in full. However, in order to assist in as far as it is possible, the Constabulary have provided data to show the number of times that officers have found defective motor vehicles and issued to their owners, 1825 drivers, or riders notices requiring defects to be corrected. The use of such notices began on a trial basis in 2015 and 2016, before entering full use in time for the winter campaigns in November and December 2016. These notices do not have a statutory basis and they are used when officers find a single defect on a motor vehicle. The notice asks that the defect be fixed and that proof of the rectification be given. If an owner, 1830 driver or rider does not wish to comply, then a prosecution will be considered. For clarification the ‘Police Winter Lights Campaign’ was conducted in specific locations in 2018 and as result allowed for data to be collected and was the subject of information released to the media which indicated over half of the 220 vehicles stopped were found to have defects. However, it is regrettably not possible to show how many vehicles police officers stopped in the 1835 course of their general duties, which makes it impossible to determine for example the percentage of vehicles stopped that had defects during winter campaigns. I would however be happy to arrange for the Hon. Member for Middle to meet with the Chief Constable if this would assist.
Use of Vehicle Defect in Information Only files since 01/10/2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Jan 3 82 90 Feb 1 4 86 57 Mar 5 67 53 Apr 2 49 45 May 52 74 Jun 52 37 Jul 1 39 47 Aug 1 36 37 Sep 3 66 59 Oct 3 83 80 Nov 82 170 124 Dec 1 99 105 87 Grand Total 2 203 887 790
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INFRASTRUCTURE
34. Local authority housing – DoI funding; shortfall in rental income
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Callister) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
How much funding the Department will provide for local authority housing from April 2019; and what the shortfall in rental income to cover costs will be, broken down by local authority?
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): The shortfall between the rental income and 1840 cost of provision of services is the housing deficiency. The figures provided below are the Department’s estimate as at December 2018. These figures are awaiting the concurrence of the housing providers. Factors which may affect the estimates provided include revisions to the anticipated rental income and changes to the expected capital programme.
Estimate of deficiency required in relation to Local Authority 2019-20 financial year (as at Dec 2018) Braddan £309,877 Douglas £1,415,042 Onchan £0 Peel £549,426 Port Erin £151,692 Port St Mary £87,283 Ramsey £1,191,835 Rushen £3,289 Castletown & Malew EPHC £205,101 Cooil Roi EPHC £121,561 Marashen Crescent EPHC £557,892 Peel & Western EPHC £1,113,472 Ramsey & Northern EPHC £573,783 TOTAL £6,280,253
35. Social housing – Deficiency claims made by each provider
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Callister) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
Pursuant to his Written Answer of 30th January 2018 if he will break down the deficiency claims made by each social housing provider (between general housing and EPHC) in 2017-18?
1845 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): The figures below show the Housing Deficiency payments made to each relevant authority for the financial year ending March 2018 as at 9th January 2019.
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It should be noted that following the receipt of the 2017-18 Audited Financial statements for each authority at the end 2018, final year-end adjustments are currently being prepared for a 1850 number of authorities. Therefore these figures are only provisional and final figures are not expected to be available until February 2019.
Deficiency payment made in relation to Local Authority 2017-18 financial year (as at 9th Jan 2019) Braddan 173,584 Douglas 246,949 Onchan 10,273 Peel 479,010 Port Erin 126,651 Port St Mary 36,673 Ramsey 1,153,667 Rushen 4,028 Castletown & Malew EPHC 182,115 Cooil Roi EPHC 123,622 Marashen Crescent EPHC 532,645 Peel & Western EPHC 604,562 Ramsey & Northern EPHC 292,455 TOTAL 3,966,234
36. DoI housing stock – Rental income, running costs and surplus 2017-18
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Callister) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What the Department’s Housing Stock: (a) total rental income was for (i) 2017 and (ii) 2018; (b) total running costs (broken down by salaries, maintenance and other main heads) were in (i) 2017 and (ii) 2018; and (c) total surplus generated was in (i) 2017 and (ii) 2018?
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): The Department has assumed that the Question refers to the public sector rental stock only and that each year is a financial year. Due to the nature of the service structure, budget profile and service delivery of housing within the 1855 Department it is not possible to give the individual breakdown of running costs to the level requested. (a) The total rental net income after removal of the rates element is:
Financial Year 2016-17 Financial Year 2017-18
£5,362,304 £5,369,796
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(b) The total operating costs are reported in line with Local Authority Housing providers, and has been apportioned as per the allowance applied to the sector.
Financial Year 2016-17 Financial Year 2017-18 Administration Housing management £287,722 £300,047 including salary costs
Maintenance Housing maintenance (including salary costs, reactive maintenance spend, £1,166,104 £1,531,000* responsive, planned, cyclical and void repairs) Total operating cost £1,453,826 £1,831,047
*The increase in maintenance spend reflects an increasing number of void properties requiring extensive refurbishment due to age and condition.
1860 (c) The total surplus is taken as the difference between the total income at (a) and the total operating costs at (b). The surplus monies are used to reduce the overall public sector rental deficiency figure.
Financial Year 2016-17 Financial Year 2017-18
£3,908,478 £3,538,749
37. Energy from Waste Plant – Availability fees; rent paid to Isle of Man Bank; other annual costs
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Callister) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
In respect of the Energy from Waste Plant: (a) what availability fee was paid in each year from 2012; (b) what annual rent was paid in each year from 2012 to the Isle of Man Bank via the Sale and Leaseback Agreement signed in September 2004; and (c) what other additional annual costs are included in the gate fee?
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): (a) What availability fee was paid in each year from 2012.
Financial Year Availability fee 2012-13 £4,141,128.77 2013-14 £4,155,662.89 2014-15 £4,215,303.21 2015-16 £4,372,013.24 2016-17 £4,399,645.20 2017-18 £4,599,340.86
1865 (b) What the annual rent paid in each year from 2012 to the Isle of Man Bank via the Sale and Leaseback Agreement signed in September 2004. The annual Lease payment to Isle of Bank Leasing is £3,403,590.40
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(c) What other additional annual costs are included in the gate fee? The gate fee charged to the Department by Suez covers the costs of consumables which are 1870 governed by waste composition and volumes. Such consumable include chemicals used to clean the waste gases to ensure that emissions reach air quality standards and some virgin oil used to start the plant following shut downs and to maintain temperatures. The current gate fee charged to domestic users covers the gate fee charged to the Department as well as a contribution to the overall availability fee. 1875 The current gate fee charged to commercial users is based on the gate fee charged to the Department, the cost for bottom ash disposal, a contribution to the overall availability fee and cost of ownership which is then adjusted to take into account the income generated from electricity sales.
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Order of the Day
3. Public Defender Scheme Project – Statement by the Minister for the Treasury
1880 The President: We move now to Item 3 on our Order Paper, Statement by the Treasury Minister.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Mr President and Hon. Members. This Hon. Court will recall our commitment within the Securing Added Value and Efficiencies 1885 (SAVE) Programme to facilitate and deliver a more comprehensive and co-ordinated programme of reform. Our Programme for Government requires us to work with the Legal Aid Committee to ensure that the provision of legal aid in the Island is efficient, effective and sustainable now and into the future. The SAVE Programme is supporting these aims, and I would like to take the opportunity 1890 to provide the Hon. Court with an update on the progress and scope of this work. As Hon. Members are aware, the current Criminal Legal Aid Review, led by Her Majesty’s Attorney General on behalf of the SAVE Sub-Committee of Council, began in September 2018. The first phase of the project is underway and is focusing on information gathering and fact finding about the Island’s existing criminal legal aid model, in addition to those in comparator 1895 jurisdictions. This work is progressing well, and a public consultation on criminal legal aid is due to be launched this spring. As part of this work, there has been liaison between the Attorney General’s Chambers, the Legal Aid Committee, the SAVE Sub-Committee, the Isle of Man Law Society and other stakeholders. I can now confirm that following a request from the Legal Aid Committee, the 1900 SAVE Sub-Committee has agreed that the scope of the current Criminal Legal Aid Review should be extended to include civil legal aid. As a result, Mr Attorney has agreed, at the request of the Sub-Committee, to continue to lead this project with an extended remit and that this will begin with immediate effect. I welcome this development as it would seem pragmatic to undertake a concurrent review of 1905 both criminal and civil legal aid in the Isle of Man, as a number of functions and processes that sit behind these provisions are inextricably linked, and of course both the criminal and civil legal aid fall within the overarching principle of access to justice, which is a fundamental cornerstone of our society. I would like to provide you with an assurance that no policy decisions have been made on any 1910 aspect pertaining to legal aid, including the establishment of a Public Defender Scheme. There have been suggestions that the creation of such a scheme in the Island is a fait accompli and that the Government is determined to replace all private criminal legal aid advocates with salaried in- house defence advocates, but this is simply not the case. Mr Attorney was asked, as part of the criminal legal aid project, to consider the feasibility of introducing a Public Defender Scheme in 1915 the Island, and it is on that basis that he will be seeking stakeholders’ views on that issue as part of the forthcoming consultation. No decisions will be made on the future delivery of criminal or civil legal aid until a comprehensive and inclusive consultation process has been undertaken and the views expressed by stakeholders have been fully considered. I would like to reaffirm that legal aid policy decisions 1920 remain the statutory responsibility of the Legal Aid Committee, by virtue of the Legal Aid Act 1986. It is important to note that most legal aid systems in the world operate with clear budget caps and explicit rationing, but the Isle of Man has an open-ended, uncapped, demand-led provision which helps support access to justice for its citizens.
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1925 Over the last five years, the average cost of legal aid and its administration has been £3.8 million per annum. Whilst legal advice, assistance and representation come at a significant cost to the public purse, this review will not simply be about cost cutting or better controlling public expenditure. The question we must ask ourselves is: how can Government ensure that legal aid is applied appropriately to those who need it, whilst balancing the financial realities of 1930 the Isle of Man? By extending this project’s remit to becoming one of access to justice, we will have the opportunity to review the Island’s legal aid provision as a whole and whether any aspects could or should be changed or improved. The overarching principles of access to justice and quality of service should be in place, and if there are potential efficiencies and savings to be made, this 1935 project will seek to identify them. I would encourage Hon. Members and all stakeholders, including the Isle of Man Law Society, Manx advocates, the judiciary, the Isle of Man Constabulary and, equally importantly, any individuals who have received legal aid or would like to see changes to its provision, to engage with the Attorney General’s Chambers throughout this review. It is vital that all stakeholders 1940 should be given the opportunity to play an active part in this project, as access to justice is a fundamental principle which benefits Manx society as a whole.
The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson.
1945 Dr Allinson: Thank you very much, Mr President. I welcome the Treasury Minister’s Statement about the Public Defender Scheme project, which has obviously caused quite a lot of discourse within the legal profession. I find it interesting that he has expanded the remit of this project to include criminal and civil legal aid. I think a review of criminal and civil legal aid is very important and I think it is 1950 extremely useful. I also completely take on board his commitment to both the delivery of justice and access to justice. However, the Public Defender Scheme project was set up under the SAVE programme – its quite explicit outcome was to save money. And so is this extension into criminal and civil legal aid also explicitly to save money? Although he says not and although he is talking about efficiencies, surely we need to separate out what the Treasury can do in terms of saving 1955 taxpayers’ money and what the Treasury would like to see in terms of the delivery and access to justice, because the two may conflict and not work together. So, whilst I am quite satisfied with the words he has just said about this extension, I would like to see some clear commitment in the remit of the Review of Legal Aid, that it is not solely to save money. 1960 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Yes, thank you. 1965 I note the Hon. Member’s point. The essence and, I think, the reassurance is that that is why the Treasury are not conducting this review, but simply it is far more appropriate that this sits with the Attorney General’s Chambers, and I think the mere fact that we have recognised that acting in such a narrow margin in terms of the Public Defender Unit and seeking appropriate cost efficiencies there was not appropriate, given that both criminal and civil legal aid are linked 1970 in a number of areas. I would also point to the fact that the SAVE Programme is not just about saving money but creating efficiencies and I think that is the commitment that we are making in terms of reviewing both the civil and legal aid programme, as (1) this is much overdue and (2) we need to make sure, obviously, that it is appropriate, clearly, in terms of its financial commitment. But I think 1975 the key question, the driver for this review, is to ask how can Government ensure that legal aid is applied appropriately to those who need it whilst balancing the financial realities of the Island. ______597 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
So, no, we are not attaching to this extension of the project a clear commitment to reducing funding, but we are attaching to it clear criteria to understand and effectively ensure that we have applied the appropriate efficiencies and that legal aid funding itself is being applied 1980 appropriately and in the appropriate areas.
The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. 1985 The Treasury Minister in his Statement majored on legal aid within the scheme and the review that is being undertaken. Would he accept that finding money is one thing but actually finding an advocate to access the justice is quite another and whether that ability for people who are going to be legally aided to actually find an advocate in the first place is part of the review that is being undertaken? 1990 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Mr President, as I have stated, there will be a full and significant public consultation both on criminal legal and civil legal aid. If that is a material issue I would very much 1995 hope that it comes up in the consultation and, as I said, it is important that the outcomes are to ensure that people can access legal aid appropriately and that we are delivering legal aid in the appropriate circumstances to those who need it; and if that cannot be delivered because there is a lack of advocates to deliver it, then I would hope that the Attorney General will recognise that, the project team will recognise that, as part of the consultation process and we will see, 2000 obviously, what recommendations come through accordingly.
The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. 2005 Just picking up on the comments that were made by my hon. colleague, Dr Allinson, I appreciate what the Treasury Minister is saying, that the objective of the SAVE Programme was not just to save money, but I think he will have to accept that the primary objective was to try and save a significant amount of money out of the revenue budgets. The original PDS review was being conducted by the Attorney General, this new Legal Aid 2010 Review is being conducted by the Attorney General; there is no change there. They are still reporting back up to the SAVE committee. The SAVE committee’s remit is still primarily about saving money. So my question, really, to the Treasury Minister is: is he sure that is definitely the right reporting process? If you have a committee whose main outcome is going to be that we need to 2015 try and save a significant sum and you have got the AG, who maybe is being tasked with something slightly different, do those two objectives reconcile quite neatly? My second question is: if there are no savings targets being attached to this project and this project is now taking the place of the original Public Defender Scheme review, what has happened to the savings targets that were attached to the PDS review in the first place? I think it 2020 was £1 million saving that was predicted from that scheme. If that is not going ahead in that form, what has happened to that saving target? Has that been pushed to one side? Has it disappeared? Has it been folded into something else? Where has it gone?
The President: Minister to reply. 2025 The Minister: I think I should point out that the SAVE Programme is effectively now a Council of Ministers endorsed policy, so in fact one would expect that the Attorney General’s report will not be interfered with per se by Treasury but will go, in due course, through to the Council of ______598 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
Ministers and then, obviously, for policy adoption and for approval by Tynwald. So I think that 2030 would alleviate any concerns. The fact that we have used SAVE as a platform for this I think should be celebrated as a success of the programme, the fact that a lot of these initiatives may not have turned out, as the Hon. Member is implying, quite in the way that we had perhaps intended but I hope will lead to greater improvements more broadly for society as a whole, and of course ensure that the taxpayer, as we were just discussing, is getting the benefit and society 2035 is getting the benefits of providing such legal aid. It is not necessarily the case that one is going to remove the target, because at this precise point I am simply unable to know, because of the lack of evidence, what saving, if any, may now be apparent. I think, Mr President, if I go more broadly into the impact of that on the Budget I will probably be on my feet all day, so what I would respectfully suggest is that I will discuss the 2040 impact of that on the SAVE Programme next month when we come to discuss the Budget.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson.
Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. 2045 Just really building on the question that the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper, has outlined, if memory serves, the original scope for the Public Defender Scheme that was outlined in SAVE was actually pitched at handling summary court matters, not the longer, more complex and therefore more General Gaol matters. So I suppose my question really is: in this now much more comprehensive review not only of criminal legal aid but building in civil legal aid, is the 2050 idea now to make sure that we are looking at the entire spend on criminal legal aid, which would include the General Gaol matters and the access to justice aspects of those longer, more complex cases?
The President: Minister to reply. 2055 The Minister: Mr President, my view on this is that it is now an all-encompassing review. I can tell you that the plan is that between February and April 2019 there will be an eight- week consultation on criminal legal aid provision and delivery to establish a baseline for access to justice, quality and costs, an invitation to suggest improvements, efficiency changes and 2060 alternative approaches, which may include a Public Defender Scheme; and between May and July 2019 a further eight-week public consultation with calls for evidence on the current model of civil legal aid provision. I would suggest, given the commitment to this broad consultation process, the Hon. Member can be confident that this is a broad, all-encompassing review and that the Attorney General’s 2065 Office will, I am sure, be doing its best to come forward with a set of recommendations that seek to set us on a fair course with regard to the provision of legal aid for many years to come.
4. Independent Review of the Isle of Man Health and Social Care System Progress Report – Statement by the Minister for the Treasury
The President: We turn to Item 4, Statement by the Treasury Minister.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Mr President. 2070 The Progress Report of the Independent Health and Social Care Review, which is laid before this Hon. Court today, provides an overview of the work undertaken by the review team between April and December last year.
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While Sir Jonathan’s Final Report is due before this Hon. Court in May, the Progress Report includes recommendations for action in the meantime, including around transformational 2075 funding for short-term needs and legislative requirements. I can confirm that the Treasury has recently released funds from the Healthcare Transformation Fund to allow the Department to allocate resources to address some of these immediate requirements. Also, Sir Jonathan and his review team are working with the Department regarding potential 2080 legislative requirements and recognise the potential implications of the legislative programme in terms of progress made or planned, including the enactment of the Safeguarding Act 2018 before the Court today. I understand from Sir Jonathan that the Final Report will include a detailed breakdown of recommendations for the relevant legislative programme required. This will provide a statutory 2085 basis to introduce changes in the system as well as behaviour and culture, which can take time to embed following that legislation. As I am sure Hon. Members will agree and recognise, this Progress Report outlines important matters for us to consider ahead of the Final Report and provides useful indications of potential recommendations that may and are likely to appear and feature in that Report. 2090 I am aware there is increasing frustration amongst the public, Members and departmental staff to start to take action immediately to improve our Health and Social Care Service. However, I would urge Members to be patient and await receipt of the Final Report so that we can ensure that any actions we take will be co-ordinated and undertaken in a holistic manner in order to deliver long-term improvements that are required. 2095 I would encourage Hon. Members to engage, or continue to engage, with Sir Jonathan and his review team over the coming months. I hope that you are all planning to attend the meeting with Sir Jonathan next week in order to make the most of the opportunity to offer input into the Review and the future of our Health and Social Care Service.
2100 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Treasury Minister for that Statement. He has made very specific reference to the importance Sir Jonathan attaches to introducing 2105 certain matters related to legislative change. Is the Treasury Minister satisfied that we will have the drafting capacity available to ensure that the flow through on this is delivered in a timely manner? Thank you, Mr President.
2110 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Clearly, obviously, we will need to understand the full extent of the legislative recommendations and of course they will have to be endorsed by the Department and by Council of Ministers and subsequently Tynwald, obviously. 2115 What I can provide reassurance to the Hon. Member is that the Health Minister and I have worked incredibly closely on this. Whilst this Review really started to shape the talk about funding, as the Hon. Member, who I know has been taking a very close and careful … and I thank him for his input so far today into this, this has broader implications around some structural reform issues. I am going to work incredibly closely with the Health Minister and the Council of 2120 Ministers and of course Tynwald in due course to ensure that the appropriate priority is applied to any legislative requirements, as I am sure we are all very keen to see and ensure that we have the proper platform in place for a future where we can deliver first-class health service and appropriate health service to our Island population.
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2125 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: I call on the Hon. Member, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President. 2130 I would like to thank the Minister for that update and welcome his announcement of the transformational funding which clearly relates to the point made by Sir Jonathan on page 3 of his Report, where he said:
… it may well be necessary for some transformational funding to be made available in the short term in order to allow weaknesses identified in this Progress Report to be addressed ahead of the delivery of my Final Report next year.
I would just be grateful if the Treasury Minister could confirm: how much transformational funding is being released; what are the intentions for that to be used for; and what is the 2135 process around that, in terms of who is spending it and how is that being managed?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Mr President, I would be happy to release that information and update 2140 Hon. Members, but I think probably better that that information is supplied by the Health Minister as he is, I know, keen to ensure that the platform for transformation is applied relevantly. I do not wish to speak for him, but he is nodding his head in approval, I am sure that he will be prepared to update Hon. Members at the next sitting in terms of what transformational work is currently being undertaken and how that has been successfully applied. 2145 I hope that will satisfy the Hon. Member. We will obviously provide the detail around the specifics of the financing.
The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
2150 Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Baker, the Hon. Member, managed to get in before me.
5. Road Safety Strategy 2019-29 – Debate commenced
The Minister for Home Affairs to move:
That Tynwald receives and endorses the Isle of Man Government’s Road Safety Strategy 2019- 2029 [GD No 2018/0050].
The President: Hon. Members, we turn to Item 5, Road Safety Strategy. I call on the Minister for Home Affairs to move.
2155 The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Malarkey): Thank you Mr. President. Every one of us will use our roads one way or another on a daily basis. We may drive a car or a motorbike; we may use public transport; some days we might walk, cycle or even ride a horse. While we are using our roads we are all vulnerable in different ways. It is our job, Hon. Members, to ensure that everyone can use our roads safely. 2160 Mr President, this is an emotive issue. All of us will know someone who has lost a friend, relative or loved one due to road traffic collisions. The impact of such a loss can be described as ______601 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
devastating. The effects are wide ranging and will stay with the families forever. That is why I make no apology for this ambitious Strategy before us today. Our vision is a future where no one is killed or sustains serious or life-changing injuries on our 2165 roads. It is a challenging vision but that is what a vision should be. Make no mistake, this will challenge all of us. We can only achieve our vision by working together in partnership – Government and the community. As fellow road users, we must also learn to respect each other. It is important to say that road safety is not a quick fix. This is a long-term plan. Even Sweden – a pioneer of Safe System Approach – set its ambitions for zero road deaths back in 2170 1994 but are yet to reach this goal 25 years later. It has taken a lot of hard work to produce this Strategy which shows real joined up working between Departments and the public. The Strategy is based on the Safe System Approach which is accepted across the world by the OECD and the World Health Organisation. The Strategy is data driven and we will base our decisions on that evidence. It is essential that 2175 the data we collect and have available is used correctly to focus on the important causes of accidents and to achieve our goals. It is important to state that this Strategy addresses all parts of the system: the system of safe people, safe speeds, safe roads and safe vehicles. I should make it absolutely clear this is not a debate on a national speed limit; it is about properly collecting and evaluating data to establish the factors that cause road traffic collisions 2180 and introducing measures that will reduce these risks and reduce the likelihood of such collisions. We all have views on road safety from our own personal experiences, but we must make policy decisions based on comprehensive data collected and analyse that data so we have a clear understanding of exactly what is happening and why on our roads. I am very encouraged and appreciative of the support of all Tynwald Members over the last 2185 few months putting this Strategy together. This is a bold Strategy that focuses on all aspects of safety, for all road users. It will challenge us all to think differently. Some of the actions we take may have far reaching implications. I am committed to working together with my colleagues in Government and partners with those outside Government to work towards the ambitious aims of this Strategy. 2190 Mr President, I beg to move that Tynwald receives and endorses the Isle of Man Government Road Safety Strategy.
Mr Harmer: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
2195 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I just want to speak briefly to this Strategy and fully congratulate the Minister for bringing this here and in the way it has been constructed, and using the Safe System in the middle of it. I 2200 attended the briefing all those months ago when this was being launched and found it excellent and informative, and the staff there were very able to answer questions and only too willing to answer Members’ questions. So it is excellent it is here, but having seen so many strategies come to this place before, and not wishing to pour any cold water on things, Minister, what I would say, Eaghtyrane, is that we 2205 need to have a full commitment here, not only to drive this forward but to continuously drive it forward over the forthcoming years. As I think the Minister has indicated from Sweden, we do not want to lose the initiative either over the coming years and possible changes in administrations and staff and so on, where so often in the past we have seen initiatives fall. This, as the Minister says, affects all of our lives every day and quite often every hour of every 2210 day or every minute of several hours of a day if there is a long drive and commute and family pick-ups and drop-offs involved during that day. So it is critically important. The Minister wants to know, Eaghtyrane, he says they need to collect data to inform a future action plan as to what is happening on our roads and issues of dangerous driving and so on. I can ______602 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
tell the Minister that now, Eaghtyrane. I submitted quite a lengthy document at the beginning of 2215 this to the initiative and I would like the Minister to come back and just tell us what happened to the consultation process at the outset of this. Is it going to be published? Are we going to see what the responses were – not just mine but just what happened to all the work that probably many people put into that? It would be very interesting to see that. But what I can say to the Minister is if you want some specifics from personal experience and 2220 probably from everyone in the Chamber, Eaghtyrane, let’s have some roundabout behaviour initiatives. Why is it that at some roundabouts, in Douglas in particular, people arriving at a roundabout junction, for instance, seem to think they have the immediate right of way even though other vehicles may have that right of way and they will proceed across the roundabout sending the other vehicle which did have the right of way, as witnessed by me, skewing off the 2225 spot of the mini-roundabout? Specifically, on regular occasions, Governor’s Bridge/Victoria Road roundabout and Johnny Watterson’s/Willaston Corner roundabout being notorious for this kind of behaviour. In some cases, absolutely unbelievable behaviour that just defies the imagination! What I have come to realise is a lot of this has got to do with driver psychology, driver behaviour and why, once we get behind the wheel of a vehicle, suddenly behaviours change and 2230 we do not become as safety conscious as we should be, and some drivers become, in fact, bullies behind the wheel, where they aggressively drive down narrow streets with cars parked either side, forcing vehicles from the other direction who may even have the right of way down and to stop them – especially 4X4 vehicle drivers, as noticed. Amazing behaviour! Lots to assess, Eaghtyrane, and for the Minister and the Police, who I have to say do a sterling 2235 job and some of the initiatives before Christmas – not the drink-drive but the initiatives before Christmas – where there was a certain week that wherever I drove on the Island there was Police monitoring the traffic issues, which was fantastic. More of it! The use of headlights in daytime. I think that is an essential safety factor that should be very much considered by the Department. I have been fobbed off by that in the past by, funnily 2240 enough, Department of Transport officials. ‘Oh, no, we can’t have that because the motorbike clubs have said there will be a confusion between bikes and cars.’ Well, to that comment I say utter rubbish! I think we need to look at that. Other countries in the world, such as Sweden, have been doing it for years. How come the Czech Republic can have a law having daytime running lights for all vehicles? They host international motorcycle racing festivals there and tens 2245 of thousands of biker visitors. There is no confusion between vehicles and motorcycles there. So where there is a will there is a way. I would ask the Minister to put that into his list that I am sure he is going to get shortly. Use of mobile phones. Well done to the Police for the campaigns; they do have them whilst drivers are driving. However, I think we need to keep the foot on that initiative and in special 2250 reference to a recent driver of an articulated vehicle I spotted – I could not get the number plate – driving across the Quarterbridge roundabout on one hand with the phone stuck to his head, causing a near accident. Unbelievable behaviour! I think education and other issues need to come into play here. You can nail people as much as you like, but there is definitely an attitude and behavioural issue in the background here with some drivers. 2255 Shooting out of side streets without looking – notorious. At the side of Murray House here, Minister. I just do not understand the behaviour. But again, we are looking at education. Traffic light behaviour: it is now commonplace to shoot traffic lights, I have noticed especially when they change into red. Once they get to orange if there is a queue of cars they will still pile their way through. When it gets to red the driver who is approaching the red light will follow 2260 through the previous driver who is going through on orange anyway, and they will just keep doing it. Notorious hotspots being Victoria Road junction with Broadway, especially at half eight in the morning, where the traffic coming down Victoria Road even though it is on red will not stop, they will keep going on to Broadway towards the Villa Marina. I have had that awful experience many times trying to use that point. The dangerous driving is unbelievable.
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2265 We need traffic management cameras or an assessment of the use of, I would say, Eaghtyrane, in monitoring traffic behaviour, because if you want to get your data, Minister, counting up how many accidents or collisions there are is one thing but actually assessing the behaviour that is going on, I think you ought to do that as well. I include the opening of doors into the paths of oncoming traffic as well. Drivers will just jump 2270 out or get their children to jump out into the middle of the carriageway. These are the things that need to be looked at as well, Eaghtyrane. Excessive speeding and dangerous driving I have touched on. All you need to do is head up the northern Mountain Road, drive from Douglas to Ramsey and back a couple of times and you will see exactly what I am talking about, on a regular basis. In fact the incredibly dangerous 2275 driving and irresponsible actions of some individuals is just totally unbelievable. Sadly to say, some bikes – out of TT Week, I am talking about – will be subject to the same behaviour. So I think the Minister, Eaghtyrane, needs to look at driving behaviours as well and the hotspots I have illustrated in this action plan that hopefully will flow from this because I am fully supportive of it. But we need to look at some of these peculiar behaviours that are occurring at 2280 traffic lights, roundabouts and the incredible reckless driving on the faster no-limit stretches of our roads. Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.
The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins. 2285 Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I am conscious that it is about six minutes to one at the moment and I regrettably will require longer than that and I am conscious as well, sir –
2290 The President: How much longer?
Mr Shimmins: Potentially quite a bit longer, so I wondered perhaps –
A Member: Ohh! (Laughter) 2295 The President: In that case I will come back to you.
Mr Shimmins: Yes, that will be fine. Thank you.
2300 The President: Assuming Mr Hooper is not as ambitious, I will call him.
Mr Malarkey: Maybe time to get a new book, Mr President!
Mr Hooper: Thank you. 2305 I actually quite welcome this Strategy document. It is great. It is moving us in the right direction. I just want to raise a few questions for the Minister to consider perhaps as the Strategy itself evolves and develops going forward. Firstly, the targets that have been included do seem a little bit arbitrary. I am not entirely sure where they came from. The Strategy talks quite extensively about benchmarking us against 2310 comparable jurisdictions and I think for me that makes a lot more sense to be saying actually we are always going to be in the top five, the top 10 or whatever is appropriate, rather than setting us with a very fixed level of reduction. The other reason for that is the Strategy then goes on to outline that we are using the Safe System approach. That approach promotes achieving targets of zero road deaths. So that 2315 approach is accepted internationally, it is effective and it supports safety and promoting these targets of zero. That approach is consistent with the vision in the document. So the targets that ______604 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
we have chosen, or the Department has chosen, are saying that we are going to reduce fatal collisions by 40% over the next 10 years. That still means at the end of that 10 years three people a year are going to die on Manx roads. So the Strategy is saying that is acceptable to us, 2320 that we are saying it is acceptable that three people a year will die on Manx roads? I do not think that is the message we should be sending. I think the message is better to say we are going to take zero deaths; that is our target. It may be unachievable but we are aiming for zero. We are going to do everything we can to make sure we are continuously improving our road safety to always be aiming for zero road deaths. (A Member: Hear, hear.) That is the vision in the 2325 document but it is not then backed up by these targets. So I think I would like a little bit of clarity from the Minister on why we are having that, why we are not following through with that zero deaths strategy, but really it is just something to think about as the Strategy itself develops going forward. I would also like a bit of clarity on the resourcing that is going to be placed into this Strategy, 2330 because I think we all know that without proper resourcing this Strategy will be almost completely ineffective. The Minister has touched on this Strategy not being a plan to introduce a national speed limit and I think with the current level of enforcement that makes perfect sense because there is no point bringing in regulations and rules and speed limits if we are not going to enforce them. Mr Henderson touched on a lot of the road culture issues that we do experience 2335 on the Island. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Government has itself allocated significant resources behind its active travel strategy which is a strategy aimed at improving health and quality of life outcomes. So, Minister, what sort of resourcing is being allocated to a lifesaving strategy like this one? The third and final question I have for you, Minister, is the data that you are proposing to 2340 gather, the data that is going to be used to benchmark us against comparable jurisdictions, will you be making that data freely available as and when it is collected or is it the intention that this data will only be made available through a very carefully vetted annual report?
The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine. 2345 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Are you –?
2350 Mrs Caine: I think I am going to be as long as Mr Shimmins, but I think I will be no longer than two or three minutes.
The President: No, I think in fairness to the Court, Mr Thomas –
2355 Mr Thomas: Yes. Reverse filibuster!
Several Members: Ah no! (Laughter)
A Member: No way. 2360 The Speaker: You’re on! (Interjection)
Mr Thomas: Reverse filibuster. Two minutes. First of all, Mr President, I welcome the evidence-based approach, I welcome the Safe System 2365 approach, I welcome the action plan and the commitment to review that annually and I welcome the policy of engagement and consultation. But the main point I want to make is it has been very cheap to say lack of joined-up Government, lack of co-ordination, lack of integrated policy and planning. This is an excellent example of partnership in working. ______605 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
We have had the Constabulary; we have had the Fire and Rescue Service; we have had the 2370 Ambulance Service; we have had the Department of Infrastructure; we have had the Department of Health and Social Care; we have had the Department of Education, Sport and Culture – all working together in a partnership. This is an example of good joined-up Government, without silos, inside a partnership. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I commend the Minister for talking about that, presenting it as such and long may that partnership continue 2375 there and in so many other places in Government. Would you like to me to speak for one more minute?
Several Members: No! No! (Laughter)
2380 The President: I leave it in the hands of the Court! (Laughter and interjections) On that basis, Hon. Members, we will adjourn and resume at 2.30 p.m.
The Court adjourned at 1 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.
Road Safety Strategy 2019-29 – Debate continued – Motion carried
The President: Now, we resume our debate on the Road Safety Strategy, and I call the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.
2385 Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. Hon. Members, you will be aware that I have been requesting this Strategy for a long time. As such, I am most grateful to the Minister for Home Affairs bringing this forward. It is an improvement on anything on Manx road safety that has gone before. The vision is strong and bold, it is exemplary. The commitment to measurable targets and the annual publication of 2390 performance against targets is a responsible approach. I welcome the increased focus on data collection, so that we can understand the root causes. If we are serious about improving road safety we should also benchmark our performance against other places. This will provide rigour and access to best practices, both of which will be essential to drive improvements. Will the Minister commit to benchmarking data as part of the 2395 annual report? The aim to protect vulnerable road users is very much appreciated. The Active Travel Strategy also has a key role to play in this. Creating safer walking and cycling routes will result in more people choosing to actively travel. The dangerous roads that we have are currently deterrents to many. Crucially, this is a barrier to unlocking the substantial health and wellbeing benefits. 2400 The Strategy acknowledges that road safety presents an enormous cultural challenge to our Island. There are many inside, and outside, Government who sometimes struggle with the need to change. Unfortunately, this is reflected in some of the policy statements. What we have is a good vision but this dissipates due to lack of hard policy action. The Strategy maintains the status quo in critical areas whilst targeting a reduction in collisions. This is perhaps wishful 2405 thinking at best. The plan not to change the policy on derestricted roads does not support the vision and strategy. Speeding is highlighted in the Strategy as the first of the fatal four. It is recognised as a leading cause of collisions and casualties. The Police know this. There are reams of studies and data which provide the evidence. Every day, we all see people speeding on Manx roads. Every
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2410 week, there are media reports about roads closed because cars have gone off the roads, where speed is often the cause. As long as we have so many derestricted roads these will continue. How can it be that our country lanes do not have a speed limit? It may be the case that certain roads on the Island merit maintaining derestricted status. Why not make these the exceptions to be considered on a case-by-case basis? This would be more straightforward and it 2415 sends out a clear message that we are serious about changing, taking action to reduce the carnage on our roads. Did the Minister consider this option of flipping, effectively looking at derestricted roads on a case-by-case basis? It would be a bold change in line with the vision. Unfortunately, this is not being proposed. The large number of derestricted roads create a culture of aggressive and selfish driving. Some people like to drive fast here; they see it as their 2420 right. They do not appear to care about the impact that it has on others. Many do not see it as a problem, they see themselves as skilful drivers. It is always other people who are at fault. Aggressive and inconsiderate driving is unfortunately a common trait on the Isle of Man. Vulnerable road users are not treated with respect, whether they be pedestrians, cyclists or horse riders. How dare they delay a motorist from driving as quickly as they want? This mind-set 2425 of angry motorists is dangerous. There are many aggressive bullies on our roads: as Mr Henderson said earlier, we should not tolerate their behaviour. We are all aware of the unacceptable vitriol on social media about motorists being held up by others. Sometimes, their spiteful bile will go along the lines of, ‘How dare an elderly person drive at 40mph in a derestricted zone?’ Their mind-set is, ‘Get off the road, you are not going as fast as me. How 2430 dare you hold me up when I want to drive faster?’ One day these bullies will be old too. They will want to maintain their independence by driving but they may be fearful of venturing out due to the aggressive, speeding drivers that are present. If derestricted roads were the exception rather than the norm, the less able could avoid them. Let’s not forget that our population is also rapidly ageing. 2435 If you step back and think about this culture it is shocking. It is not the same if you are walking, if you see a slower person coming up the stairs or coming through a door, be they infirm or with small children, most Manx people will waive them to go on ahead, do not rush, take your time. They recognise that it is the right thing to do. They do not barge past them in an aggressive, rash manner. Compare this to how vulnerable road users and slower drivers are 2440 treated regularly on our roads. Different rules are applied; we are less likely to look after each other. Let’s not kid ourselves, this is a cultural problem, and it will take a different approach by many people, including politicians and public servants, if this is to change. This culture also has a cost. The Report highlights the financial cost of serious collisions; it is a shockingly high number. But this bill tends to be forgotten or glossed over in assessing the 2445 viability of events. Even then, it is not the full picture as there is also a lost opportunity cost. I have also spoken to a number of tourists who have been so intimidated by the aggressive driving to which they have been submitted to here, that they have said they will never return to our Island. Hon. Members, this speeding culture blights the lives of many constituents in Middle. 2450 Children are unable to cross fast, busy roads; their parents will not let them play out. The Department of Infrastructure is highly reluctant to take action to reduce speed limits or install traffic lights. Their priority appears to be to maintain traffic flows and speeds, rather than help our children cross the road. I also have elderly constituents who will take the bus to Douglas to do some shopping but have to get a taxi back because they cannot cross the busy road to return 2455 to their home because the traffic is so fast. Again, the Department of Infrastructure is highly reluctant to take action to reduce speed limits or to install traffic lights because their priority appears to be to maintain traffic flows and speeds rather than help our elderly residents cross the road safely. There is no mention of this, unfortunately, in the Road Safety Strategy despite the fact that problems with speeding traffic are measured by the Government’s social attitudes 2460 survey. The 2018 survey showed that 55% of the residents in Braddan, Malew and Marown felt speeding was a fairly big problem or a very big problem, impacting their lives. It was even higher ______607 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
in the parishes of German and Patrick. Clearly, this existing data could have been used as a performance metric to assess the progress on the Road Safety Strategy, but it has not been included. Will the Minister include this going forward? 2465 Many other places have introduced lower speed limits across the board in urban areas, ‘20 is plenty’ has become a popular movement in the UK and the equivalent 30kph, ‘Love 30’ is in Europe. In December, the Spanish Minister announced a 30kph limit in all urban areas across Spain. These reductions are incredibly popular with the people who live in these urban areas. The UK Department of Transport published a report in November which reviewed the 20mph 2470 speed limits in the UK and how they had been implemented. This report showed 75% of all residents supported 20mph limits post implementation and that speeds had dropped. Bristol and Edinburgh are now largely 20mph zones. Liverpool, a city with which we have very close links, has had various initiatives under what they call Liverpool’s ‘20 Effect’. The Liverpool strapline is ‘Slower Speeds, Safer Streets’. Their leaders want to improve community safety and 2475 quality of life for their residents. Liverpool City Council has proactively written to ask all their residents if they would like the speed limit reduced on their road. Hon. Members, if you have made any attempt to support your local residents in reducing speed limits in their roads you will realise that the contrast here is very stark. Our Department of Infrastructure tends to resist speed limit reductions. That is their culture. There is no indication 2480 that this will change in the Strategy. In 2017 the World Health Organisation recommended 20mph limits as best practice in residential areas and stated that a safe speed on roads with possible conflicts between cars and pedestrians, cyclists or other vulnerable road users is 20mph. The International Transport Forum at the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and 2485 Development, the OECD, published a report on speed and crash risk in April 2018, this calls for 20mph limits in built-up areas, where there is a mix of vulnerable road users and motor vehicles. The Scottish Parliament is currently considering a Bill to replace the current national limit for street-lit roads from 30mph to 20mph. The UK National Institute for Health and Care Excellence has published various guidance 2490 recommending that local authorities consider implementing 20mph limits on appropriate roads to reduce road injuries. You may wish to consider the chart in our Road Safety Strategy on pedestrian casualties. This shows pedestrian casualties by age band. It shows that those below 15 years old are most likely to be a pedestrian casualty on our roads. There are various studies which all show that the 2495 chance of being fatally injured as a pedestrian increase exponentially at 30mph, in comparison to 20mph. Given all of these facts, you should ask why does the Strategy not propose extension of 20mph limits in our urban areas? I would welcome the Ministers explanation for this omission Others are taking action, whilst the Strategy being proposed rules out consistent approaches to speed limits, the Council of Ministers call for a case-by-case approach. That is what we have at 2500 present – it is not working, the Department of Infrastructure is not responding. It causes enormous frustration for local residents. Cars are prioritised ahead of vulnerable people. Is that the culture that we want? Turning now to the policy statement, which states that the Council of Ministers does not plan to introduce mandatory annual vehicle checks at this time. Instead targeted roadside check 2505 campaigns will continue – no change again. Hon. Members may not have had a chance to review the response received today to a Written Question submitted by me on the Police winter vehicle defect checks. The Constabulary does not have a full data set but when this was a focus for the Police, during the last two years in November and December, over 120 vehicle safety defect notices were issued each month. This 2510 shows that the current approach is simply not working. A significant number of cars on our roads have safety defects. What are we proposing to do about this? It seems we are just going to carry on as before. Is this really the best way to drive improvement? Is this the best use of our thinly stretched police force’s time and resources? You see cars on our roads held together with gaffer ______608 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
tape and bailer twine. We now know many have bald tyres, faulty lights and dodgy brakes, yet 2515 the Council of Ministers policy statement specifically rules out an annual safety check. Why could we not have a safety check conducted by garages as part of their vehicle service? Will the Minister explain why this is specifically ruled out in the Strategy? There are many statistics in the Strategy, including demographics. There are lots of very interesting facts and charts but these present a sanitised view. The reality, of course, is that 2520 these statistics represent individual and family tragedies. The vision is that the Strategy will stop these heart-wrenching tragedies. Hon. Members, I put it to you the question you need to ask yourself is not whether or not you support the vision, of course most people will support a vision to eliminate deaths and serious injuries. Rather, what you need to consider is will the Strategy with the questionable 2525 policy statements from the Council of Ministers achieve that vision? It is clear to me, that the policies will not support the vision. The Strategy does not stand up to scrutiny. Like many of the cars on our roads, it is defective. Committing to a safe systems approach but then ruling out changes to speed limits or vehicle safety checks is fatally flawed. We owe it to our residents to deliver improved road safety. If we 2530 do not, many more will die or be maimed on our roads due to our inaction and unwillingness to change. This requires a forthright commitment to legislation and enforcement, alongside leadership of cultural change. Regrettably, this is not present in this Strategy as presented; I repeat it is fatally flawed. As such I cannot vote in favour of this Strategy.
2535 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to offer my thanks and congratulations to those who have fed into the Road Safety Strategy. It has been a long time coming but at least we have it and can now look to it being 2540 implemented, with annual reports on meeting the various targets on safe roads and safe people. The two omissions, the lack of annual vehicle checks or a national speed limit, are subjects I have received feedback about. It would seem to suggest that there is less of an objection to the annual vehicle check especially done, as the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins said, when you have your annual service. But the very small amount of feedback I have had since the Road 2545 Safety Strategy was produced, would seem to suggest that Garff residents welcome the 50mph speed limit on the coast road during the TT, but they do not want a blanket national speed limit for the Island, outside of motorsport events, on that road. There is a rumour that the original draft of the Strategy contained a national limit but was vetoed by a particular Minister. I would be interested to have the hon. mover’s response; and the reasoning for that if it is true. 2550 The issue I see is that we have to change a culture; we need to change driver behaviour to be more responsible, we need greater awareness of the long-term devastating impact of poor driver decisions. Speed is not the only answer and indeed, a national speed limit seems pointless without enforcement. I suppose enforcement would be possible through speed cameras but I do not see enforcement by multiple cameras being a welcome addition to our 600 miles of country 2555 roads. Requiring persistent speeders and perhaps any driver to go on speed awareness courses would perhaps be one avenue that we will go down. We managed pretty well in Baldrine in having a housing estate with derestricted roads, until constituents brought their concerns over traffic speeds to my attention. I am pleased to say there was a very swift reaction from the Police and the Department of Infrastructure highway 2560 officers to start the process to ensure that Baldrine Park receives appropriate speed limits very soon. I welcome the safe speeds initiative that will result from this Strategy, the fact it is using evidence to impose appropriate speed limits on different sections of road. That seems a sensible and politically acceptable way forward at this time. Hopefully, in Garff constituency, the short stretch of coast road north of Baldrine to Ballabeg tram crossing will be high on the list for speed 2565 limit assessment. ______609 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
My road also is a country road. Multiple people are now visiting the Dhoon Glen to see the fairy houses, and actually it is a derestricted road. I have a lot of sympathy with the Hon. Member, Mr Shimmins’ points, when he says people are fearful to cross the road, because I or my husband take our children to school because we cannot let the eldest cross the main road, 2570 we do not want to risk him crossing a main road to the bus stop that would get him to the school bus by him walking out of the house on his own, so we are still doing the parental thing where we drive. And I do not know what age I would feel comfortable with him crossing a main road that is a derestricted road. But I look forward to the road safety partnership diligently going through each of the roads in coming up with the appropriate speeds for the areas. 2575 Most of the time, people drive to the conditions without limits, but people are human, and sometimes drive inappropriately: in poor weather conditions, they speed, they have business pressures, time pressures, they lose concentration and we fail to maintain our vehicles or check tyres enough. Police statistics would suggest the more enforcement the higher the amount of vehicles with 2580 flaws were discovered, with more than half the vehicles being stopped in November found to have defects that needed attention. Also in the recent Christmas Drive Safe campaign, 23 arrests resulted from 349 stops. It is higher than previous years, but I am informed there was no data recorded on the previous years to establish if that is in proportion with the amount of enforcement, with the amount of vehicles stopped. 2585 My worry with this Road Safety Strategy is how will the Road Policing Unit be resourced to ensure an appropriate level of enforcement and deterrent to encourage responsible driving? And not just for the driving, but also taking pedestrians, horse riders and the increasing number of cyclists – how are they all to be accommodated and made safe? While welcoming the Strategy, I would query the targets with the Minister and I would be 2590 interested to know how they were arrived at. I concur with the Hon. Member for Ramsey, that they seem somewhat arbitrary. It states the Strategy will aim to see a:
40% reduction in the annual number of people killed or seriously injured in road traffic collisions
Why 40%?:
15% reduction in the annual number of road users sustaining slight injuries…
And so it goes on:
30% reduction in the annual number of non-motorised vulnerable road users who are injured…
40% reduction in the annual number of powered-two-wheeler road users…
And:
20% increase in the number of non-motorised vulnerable road users who say they feel safe using our roads.
2595 They seem quite modest ambitions compared with the vision. I would like to know when the vision will be realised, how far away is the future where no-one is killed or sustains serious or life changing injuries on our roads? Accepting it is an ideological aspirational vision and not a target, setting realistic targets that will see us benchmarked, hopefully increasingly positively against comparable islands, would seem a more meaningful way of demonstrating the success of the 2600 Road Safety Strategy. Would the Minister like to hazard a guess when we might come anywhere close to realising the vision? Perhaps when driverless cars are the only motorised vehicles on our roads. A couple of other aspects not touched on in Safe Approach or elsewhere that I could see, and I wonder if these would be looked at following better data gathering and analysis. A retired 2605 police officer commented to me that the single biggest improvement in our road safety, outside ______610 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
of the TT, would be to restrict younger drivers’ vehicles and to take licences off the elderly medically unfit, in fact all the medically unfit. How many times do we hear someone expressing concerns about their elderly relative still driving, despite whatever medical impairment? Does the Minister foresee any policies coming forward over age-related or medical impairment or 2610 driving restrictions for the younger motorists? And how would that be permitted under equality legislation? I note that the gender and age statistics show that the proportion of male casualties in the 51-55 age group is higher than most other male age groups, and I wonder if that is something to do with the midlife crisis car? They account for 4% of the population and yet 6.85% of casualties. 2615 But it does seem to be borne out in the case of young drivers, aged 16-20, with passenger casualty numbers in the 16-20 age group also very high. I am happy to support the Road Safety Strategy today, and it is absolutely the right way forward that polices and improvements are introduced on an evidence basis. I look forward to the development of an action plan and its implementation to hope we will start seeing 2620 measurable improvements, particularly in the policies to reduce casualties amongst young people. I wonder at the mid-term review in 2024 if will see any measurable improvements and that we will be able to celebrate. I hope so. I think it is for CoMin to ensure that all partners, all parts of Government and Tynwald 2625 continue to work together to ensure the joined up strategies of safe cycle routes, safe people and safe speed limits are implemented. Most of all, I look forward to the engagement and consulting that will be undertaken with the public to establish that the Road Safety Strategy is heading in the right direction for this Island, that it is continuing along the right path, taking the majority of people with it. There will be no 2630 improvements without the public buy-in and willingness to engage and change driving culture on the Island, for the benefit of future generations. It is a contradiction, but I think the Isle of Man is traa dy liooar about putting speed limits on country roads. I hope this Road Safety Strategy gives the partnership the impetus to progress and come forward swiftly with an implementation plan. And I am sure it will continue to have 2635 the support of Members and have the desired impact on improving our road safety. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
2640 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I absolutely support the ambition of the Road Safety Strategy. I think it is helpful in some ways to think of it as a framework which is going to set the tone for things to come. Some of the specific policy actions will need to hang on that, so I do not think we are going to expect to see all of the policy issues addressed on it as it stands right now. But I do thank the Minister for 2645 Home Affairs for bringing it forward and also I thank the officers for all the work that they have done on it, together with the partnership so far. I am going to address some of the points that have been made about speed limits and also about driver licensing, as the Hon. Member for Garff has just made. But I will start with what I have prepared so far. 2650 It is going to be crucial that the cross-departmental work on this does continue and that whilst the details will be approached in the action plan – and I think what we are looking for here is more detail than that – I believe it will come. I think adopting the Safe System Approach is a new marker for how road safety is addressed on the Island and I am pleased to see that we will have a strategy in place based on international best practice data, and something that we 2655 can use to target all elements of the road traffic system design, operation and use. The change in driving behaviour is an important one as we live on an Island where there is a long-standing attachment to the freedom of the road, but at the same time we rightly have a ______611 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
growing expectation to walk and cycle in safety. The Safe System Approach seeks to improve road safety and respect for all road users; to get the message of respect of other road users out 2660 there we will work with the Road Safety Partnership to encourage people to think again. We all need to work with them for that. We need to think especially about vulnerable road users: as we pass somebody, as we race to work, it could be somebody’s brother or somebody’s sister that we are passing and, regardless of the road, there needs to be a sense of place and respect for all road users. This is a core 2665 theme of the Road Safety Strategy. There is of course the tie-in with Active Travel, the benefits and successes of which will rely partly on the growing confidence and a sense of place, and how people relate to each other on the roads whether they are in a car or not. People need to feel safe and should not be put off walking or cycling because of road users’ behaviour. I have already discussed with the Minister 2670 and the Director of Highways about reviewing the approach to speed limits because clearly there are different limits that are appropriate for different types of roads. I think that the Road Safety Strategy gives a basis just to look at the approach to that. And when I say about policies that will stem from the Road Safety Strategy, some of these things will be coming, some already have started work on – we have already started work on looking at driver licensing, thinking 2675 about some of the age-related concerns and just what is the appropriate way to get safer outcomes on that. There is clearly a lot to do. There is a lot to get right and I would like to reaffirm the full commitment of Highway Services to this. Actually, I personally hope that we can do better than the stated target in the number of non-motorised vulnerable road users who say they feel safe. I 2680 would like us to do better on that. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw.
2685 Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. I was not going to speak in this debate at all because I am, frankly, very supportive of that which the Minister has placed before us today. But I rise to my feet really as something of a short, quick counterbalance to some of the comments that have come on to the floor of the House from the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins. 2690 I got a note from my fellow Member for Douglas East asking me the question when Mr Shimmins was referring to the elderly constituent in his constituency (Laughter) was he referring to me? Well, that constituent replies to the Hon. Member here. I thought he came over as something of a tub-thumping absolutist, almost an anti-drive person who saw us all – because we are all drivers – as dark creatures from another place. I 2695 think we just need to touch a bit of balance to the Hon. Member’s diatribe, because that is what it was. I actually share a number of his sentiments, but he completely lost the balance in his presentation. As this elderly member from his constituency, as somebody who has been driving for over 50 years, I have to say that I think … and it has sort of come to my consciousness in 2700 recent years, particularly in the last few years, that I think driver courtesy in the main is actually improving. Time and again as I drive into Douglas and I come to a junction, somebody wants to give way to me – maybe it is my age, I don’t know. (Laughter)
Mr Crookall: The size of your car! 2705 Mr Robertshaw: Maybe I am recognised as that constituent from Middle, but I am noticing it around me that more drivers are giving way. There is more courtesy on the roads than there used to be. And I think the Member for Middle is right to be concerned about something, but please, let’s put this into balance and let’s direct our ire, our concerns to those who are ______612 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
2710 disrespecting the rest of us; rather than damn us all, in the way that he did. That is not the way forward. I think the policy before us here is in the right direction, it is taking the cultural move that is happening that there is a growing sense of awareness between interested players using the road. So I think we are going in the right direction and this takes us further down that way. 2715 Before I sit down, Mr President, I just want to say something about a point that – I am sorry to keep picking on the Hon. Member, Mr Shimmins, for his contribution – but his desire to have more traffic lights, ‘Get more traffic lights! Stop them! Damn them! Stop this traffic moving!’
Mr Shimmins: To help people cross the road? We do not all live in country estates like you, 2720 Chris! (Laughter)
Mr Robertshaw: Actually, if you think about it the more traffic lights you put in and the more you deny natural courtesy to apply itself, the more you have traffic queues with exhaust fumes pumping out on to these poor pedestrians and cyclists which the Hon. Member cares so much 2725 about. So let’s have less traffic lights and more courtesy (A Member: Hear, hear.) and let’s support the – (Interjection by Mr Shimmins) Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Glenfaba, Mr Harmer. 2730 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. I am delighted to second the motion brought forward by the Hon. Minister and I would like to add my own commitment to this document and to achieving the objectives set out within it. We all realise the sometimes devastating impact road traffic collisions have on our lives and we have 2735 seen death and life-changing injuries each year on the Island. I have absolutely no doubt we all wish to see that impact reduced and ultimately eliminated. However, it is not sufficient merely to look at perceived issues, we need to look at the issues with a measured, professional approach. I believe this Strategy does this. It is a result of months of collaborative working from officers and members in many Departments. It continues the Safe System Approach that is now 2740 practice throughout much of the world. It is a brave document. The ultimate and admirable aspiration of this Strategy is to reach a situation where no-one is killed or seriously injured on our roads. That is a noble aim. Reaching it will not be easy, nor will it happen quickly. It will be a long and hard route where challenging decisions will need to be made if we are to succeed. The Strategy does not set out to achieve a zero target immediately, it 2745 sets out extremely challenging interim targets towards an ultimate vision. These targets are onerous but with support and direction they are achievable. A combination of our collective resources directed at enforcement, education and engineering with support from healthcare professionals will reach those targets, assisted by improved vehicle technology and road design. In many ways we are well placed to make this Strategy happen. We have close co-ordination 2750 between various Departments, the necessary skill sets in road safety in both the Department of Home Affairs and the Department of Infrastructure, the support of colleagues in healthcare and the public wish for us to succeed in our aims. Now we also have a Strategy that has measured the scale of the problem and gives direction as to how to reduce it with the ultimate and admirable vision to eliminate it. I believe it is our 2755 duty as elected representatives to endorse the Strategy and give it, and the actions arising from it, our ongoing support to make our Island a safer place for people to live, work and visit. I think what is absolutely critical is how it links both with the Active Travel Strategy and the Public Health Strategy; and all of these strategies that have come together have been fundamentally because we have been working together across Departments. That has been absolutely critical 2760 because it is not one Department. I think why we should further endorse this Strategy is when
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we talk about speed limits or other issues we are not talking to one Department – the Department of Infrastructure – it is based on data evidence and the Safe System Approach. So what we are endorsing here is a change: a complete change from one Department, but actually giving the Road Safety Partnership the mandate and the evidence to actually do that. 2765 And why do we say that? Why do we say data? Well, surely it is obvious how many people are injured, etc. but the quality of our data is not sufficient. We talk about the Maximum Abbreviated Injury Scale and STATS20, and so forth, and these are much better tools to actually analyse what sort of actions we should take and what sort of progress we should do. And it is not all about speed. It absolutely should not be a debate about the national speed 2770 limit because that is a Tynwald, a national resolution that may be addressed on another date. But what I took interest in was that nobody here was actually endorsing it and even the Member for Middle was saying, ‘Actually, there are places where we should have derestricted roads’. But I think that is an irrelevance because what this Strategy will do is actually give us the foundation stones to get the evidence, to get the data, to analyse it and then say, ‘Is it driver behaviour? Is it 2775 infrastructure? Is it engineering? Is it technology? What exactly are the things that we should do?’ That is mentioned in the Strategy and in sections 4.8 and 7.5 it talks about there is not one blanket solution, it is actually a mixture and road traffic collisions are made from different areas. Picking up some of the points that the Hon. Member of Council, Bill Henderson made, it is about the full commitment, absolutely, this full commitment for the whole of Tynwald to come 2780 together on this and to tackle some of those issues – and some of those issues regarding dangerous driving and the elderly, and what I would call novice drivers, which is a point that the Member for Garff picked up. But those are issues that we will work with the Department of Home Affairs on, absolutely. But some of them are novel and some of the solutions that are coming through are not the blanket, if you like, remove the licence or put extra tests, but 2785 actually include nudges and so forth. So there is a lot of good work and a lot of evidence we can take from elsewhere. Interestingly, a number of people mentioned about targets and I will just point on that. In any venture in life that you do, yes, you have a vision but unless you have smart, achievable targets you will not actually achieve that vision – you will set yourself so far in advance and not actually 2790 get anywhere. And in terms of where those targets come from, the Minister will obviously elaborate further, but it obviously relates to existing collision levels, previous absence targets and evidence from the UK as well as performance against two sets of national targets. So they are not done in isolation, they are done with evidence and they are done with data. Remember this is a living document and it will be refined … But it is the approach that is 2795 radically different and that is why I urge Members to support the Minister for Home Affairs in this. And I think the Member from Garff actually answered some of the questions that the Member from Middle suggested in regard to the speed limit. There is absolute openness to change speed limits because it is one of those pillars and is within the document. Safe Systems is about people’s speed and vehicles and so forth. So it is an important aspect. 2800 Sometimes the issue is around town centres also, as the Member of Council alluded to, and that is something we are reviewing; but that probably goes a bit wider into a sense of place and sense of within our town centres not just the road safety issue, necessarily. There have been lots of comments about evidence, which is absolutely right. This is a document about evidence, about gathering evidence and about acting on that evidence. It is a 2805 radical departure and it is in that respect an excellent document, and in many ways it sets a tone of saying that actually we are all drivers, we are all walkers, we all do different things and we all have to take that forward. And regarding vehicle checks there is already work … The evidence does not necessarily suggest an annual vehicle test but actually the Bill that I hope to introduce regarding the Road 2810 Traffic legislation will allow more powers in respect of vehicle checks and roadside checks. But obviously this is an evidence-based approach and as the evidence permits then we will change
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our approach. That is the whole point. Do not miss the point with this document – (Interjection) the document is about data, evidence and action. And with that I beg to support the motion.
2815 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crookall.
Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. A lot of what I was going to say has already been said. I will echo the sentiments of my colleague from East Douglas, Mr Robertshaw. I agree with everything that he said. I think some 2820 of the points that were made by the Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, could be taken a bit too far when he talked about Spain having maybe 30 km an hour in towns – or 20 around here. I think it has been looked at and I think most people actually do that at the moment. What he should remember is the gang that he is a member of and I am, but very rarely, are probably doing more than that ourselves on two wheels without engines as well at times, so we need to 2825 be careful what we say. I think the vision is a vision which I think everybody – in fact I am surprised and a little bit disappointed Mr Shimmins has said he will not support it, because the vision is one that we should all be seen to be supporting:
A future where no-one is killed or sustains serious/life changing injuries on our roads …
I think we should all be there supporting that, irrespective of our thoughts, I think we should 2830 be behind that. And as the Minister for DOI has said it is a living document. It will get better hopefully and with results every year we will change it to make those results better and better. Out of all the words and terms that were used in the document, education – and it has not been used that often this afternoon – is the biggest one to me. Absolutely. From the time that anybody, whether they be 16, gets a provisional licence to start learning, or an older person who 2835 starts learning, or whatever, education is ongoing. It is not just taking your lessons and then passing your test. You learn to pass the test to a certain standard but have ongoing learning throughout life. I remember when we were in DOT when we first got in in 2006-07 we were discussing things like this about what we could do, and some of us I know in here this afternoon will have received 2840 an email from Derek Flint – and we all know Derek who is a former roads policing officer and he is all about education. And I do not agree with everything that was in Derek’s email, but some of the things that Derek – and he is in charge, and I think he is the chairman, of the Isle of Man Institute of Advanced Motorists – and they could be used. But when we were in DOI, or DOT as it was at the time, we made the suggestion that the Government owned Jurby – 220 acres up 2845 there of prime land with basically a racetrack on it, but it was with off-road capabilities as well for people to learn skid control, how to drive fast during your driving lessons maybe with your driving instructor; because God forbid at 17 years old you could pass your test and the next day you can jump on the boat and hit the M6! (A Member: Hear, hear.) You have got Richmond Hill and the Santon Bypass, and that is the closest you are going to get to it, and then all of a sudden 2850 you are out there at 70 miles an hour. Bang! I do not think it has ever happened – touch wood – but it could. We could do a lot better in our training and our education. And the other side of it is of course the enforcement. If we are going to do this and we are going to use the statistics and enforce these laws and regulations, we must make sure and the 2855 Treasury should make sure that the Minister for Home Affairs and his team have enough at their disposal to enforce that. We cannot keep making cutbacks, and the present Minister and the past Minister have seen that Department has been cut back time after time. If we are going to save lives and save injuries – and I think the figure was put out today of £85 million it has cost in the last three years in deaths and injuries – if we are going to stop that there is only one way to
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2860 do it, and that is by enforcement and by the courts putting out decent fines, and maybe those fines should be in line with what people earn as well rather than just £100 or £200. And we have seen it across, it is done across now – you have seen footballers recently drink driving, and that £85,000 or £90,000 fine because of what they earn. It is no use just fining people like that £100 or £1,000 or something like that. Make it respective to their wages maybe. 2865 I have spoken to Home Affairs officers about that. Just on the percentage changes, the Minister for Infrastructure did mention that we have got to have targets and about a 40% reduction in this and a 15% reduction that – we ought to be aiming for nought. And I understand you have got to have realistic targets, but it should be that we should be aiming for nought. 2870 We talk at the bottom here about putting in safety features. Just a couple of examples: Strang Road was a disaster. What was done on Strang Road was a disaster. I actually came through there on the bus this morning and how that bus driver got through there this morning – well, he did not … Well he got through, but he had to go up on the pavements to get around other cars and other buses. But if we are going to do these sorts of things, let’s make sure we as 2875 Government get them right in the first place. When I come through to Douglas in the morning in the car, I get to Ballacraine crossroads. If I turn right instead and go down towards Castletown I think in that short space of time – it is about 10 miles, or whatever it is – there are 13 different speed limits. Somebody could be forgiven for forgetting what speed limit you are in – nearly forgiven, but you cannot because 2880 there are that many signs; but 13 different speed limits over a 10-mile stretch. If I turn left and go to Glen Helen through that lovely, windy stretch up there and all those bends, 60 miles an hour all the way through there. Really? I am happy to support this, this afternoon, Mr President. I think it is a good paper, a good strategy. It will change over the years I am sure. But if it saves lives and saves injuries I am all for 2885 that. And I surely hope, honestly, Mr Shimmins will change his mind and support it in the view that in the future he may well get some of what he wants in there as well. Thank you.
The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins. 2890 Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. I would concur with the Member for East Douglas, Mr Robertshaw, that it is not all doom and gloom. We have visitors that come to us and they remark on how considerate some of the drivers are. Indeed coming into work this morning I drove along the Promenade and you get to 2895 the bottom of Summerhill and it is one on one, one coming down Summerhill and the driver going along the Promenade slows down, lets them in and it works very well. Yes, of course there are the exceptions to the rule and we do have to educate those drivers, the youngsters coming straight from having passed their test and also the oldies that should perhaps be put out to grass, dare I say it. (Laughter) 2900 Just picking up on the 50-mile limit on the coast road, the people that live in Garff mainly can expect a wallaby or a goat just round the everlasting bend, so the people in the know normally stick to 50, but for the benefit of the visitors it is important and I understand that it did help safety wise this year. However, I do congratulate the Minister and his team on the Safe System strategy. I think it is 2905 absolutely excellent. But to my way of thinking there is one slight bit of the jigsaw that is missing and that is autonomous cars and vehicles. Already we have got cars that automatically brake when they get too close to the car in front. Autonomous cars, Hon. Members, range from zero to level five. Zero means there is no automation at all. Level 5 means the car is completely autonomous, no steering wheel and the 2910 driver is redundant. How do you change driver culture? Take him out of the vehicle completely.
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In America, I understand there are 31 states that have passed legislation to enable autonomous vehicles. Later this year, Google has a sister company that is planning to introduce a driverless taxi service in Phoenix, Arizona. Helsinki has already got driverless buses. World- leading taxi and ride-sharing companies like Uber and Lyft have all been working hard on 2915 developing autonomous technology, as have many mainstream manufacturers. Level 5 cars may seem some way off, but make no mistake about it they will come to the Isle of Man. I understand that already worldwide there is evidence that automatic emergency braking and pedestrian detection systems are reducing the number of accidents. More sophisticated systems will take that progress a step further. So I believe it is vital that we address 2920 the advent of this new technology and incorporate that into our safety strategy. I will be having great pleasure in supporting this motion.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Maska.
2925 Mrs Maska: Thank you, Mr President. I welcome this Strategy and I commend the Minister and his team for bringing this together to us today. The matter I wish to refer to is not as high tech as the Hon. Member, Mr Perkins, has referred to and I wish to assure the Hon. Member for East Douglas that this is not a direct reference to 2930 him. But I wish to talk about mobility scooters. (Laughter) Hon. Members, I was very surprised when I learned a number of years ago that these vehicles are not regulated in any form or fashion. All you need is house insurance and household contents insurance to be able to operate one of these. You do not need to have held a licence and I am sure we can all identify with being taken out almost by these small vehicles going at 2935 speed either on footpaths, in the roads, in the darkness maybe. I think really when we look at going forward and trying to gather data we need to maybe look wider where these vehicles have been assessed and studies have been done. They present a threat not just to pedestrians but to drivers of vehicles, to children and in some cases there are fatalities resulting from the poor operation. 2940 I would not want to curtail the independence of the people that use these vehicles and probably I will need one in the near – or the not-too-near future, (Laughter) but I think safety and independence need to be put in the balance. All I would ask the Minister and his team maybe as we go forward gathering data, is we might look at the numbers of the occurrence of these in our community because they are on the 2945 increase and the power that they present now, they can do I think at least 15 miles an hour and I think really we should be looking at the safe operation and how we might license and regulate these for the safety of all our community. But I welcome this Strategy today and I will be supporting it. Thank you. 2950 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Peake.
Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. It is a road safety strategy that we are debating today and I must admit that the vision is a 2955 challenging one but something that we can support. It will stretch the Department, or the Departments, I am sure it will. But the other good thing I was drawn to was the review of legislation relating to road use, including driver training and testing provisions, vehicle testing and enforcement. I think this really is a key thing and I know our hon. colleague in Legislation touched on the education side of it and I do totally agree with that. I think that is the biggest 2960 thing: once you pass your test that is the start of your education. I was lucky enough to take an interest in motor vehicles when I was young after I passed my test and ended up rallying in motorsport. I must admit I learned an awful lot out of that. I think ______617 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
having that continual personal development … I mean is this the only section that we do not have continual personal development in? You get a licence at 16 and then that is it, you are not 2965 revisited again. So I do welcome what may come in the future actually. As it says on page 27, it is curious the headline actually says ‘Safe people’ and that is the thing, it is not the car, it is the person behind the wheel. That is who is in control and that is who has to take responsibility for this – whether you actually take responsibility yourself or actually you are given direction from Departments and licence departments. But it is page 27, ‘Safe 2970 people’. There are also opportunities to ensure that our drivers are competent and fit to drive throughout their lives through our driving tests and licensing procedures. I think that is key really. We have heard a lot today about speed. Speed is appropriate at certain times, but that is down to the education of the driver who can then make that decision when it is appropriate, 2975 whether it is sunny, dry or wet, it has got to be appropriate. I am really looking forward to sustaining this Report, to see how that works in with active travel and how we can then start using the roads together. That is what it is all about. So I do think it is about education, it is the build-up of your skills throughout your life. Take responsibility. It is, in the wrong hands, a weapon. It is a big piece of metal. You have to respect 2980 that and you have to respect the road. So I do welcome the Strategy and I look forward to the work in the years to come to make this a safer place. Thank you.
2985 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. I was not going to speak but I might as well have my two-penny worth. I was brought to my feet principally by Mr Perkins who referred to ‘oldies’ and given that I am 2990 celebrating becoming ancient today, I wondered was he referring to me? I hope he was not. But I want to say that things have improved over the years, albeit very slowly in certain areas. When I got my first motorcycle from Neil Kelly I got the thing in Tiger Tim’s. He showed me where the brake was, he showed me where the accelerator was, we went down a lift, I got on the bike, I did not change gear until it blew up at Ballaugh Bridge! (Laughter) That is what 2995 happened. That is a matter of fact. So now the good thing in terms of motorcyclists is that motorcyclists now have the opportunity to be accompanied by a motorcycle trainer. It is so much better now in that regard. Obviously, that is one of the areas where people are potentially most at risk. For me, it is all around young people and this is something that has not changed, because 3000 when I was a young person right through till now, too many young people over the years have lost their lives in car accidents and it is a tragedy – for them obviously because they do not get to have their life, but it is a tragedy for all of the people around them. It is just something that I hope that this Strategy at long last will emphasise: the importance of training; because it has been said before, but the sad thing is nothing has ever happened. 3005 The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crookall is quite correct. When I was on that Department, and prior to that, we spoke about Jurby being used in terms of skidpan facilities and such because people could travel across and then be faced for the first time with an emergency situation. So driver training, in particular for younger people, is for me the key to all this. If we can try and eliminate some of the tragedies for the future in that area I think we would be doing 3010 a good job today. The other point I wanted to kind of jump on as well – I am not sure who it was but – somebody referred to – again, I think it might have been Mr Crookall – the number of different speed limits in different places. I think that is one of the things that causes driver frustration
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from time to time. They can be going along and then have to slow down and then speed up. 3015 More consistency in terms of speed limits I think would be appreciated. (A Member: Hear, hear.) That is all I have to say really. I do think though that the key thing is young people and making sure they get appropriate training and ongoing training. Again, if the Institute of Advanced Drivers can assist in any way I think that would be a good thing too. So that is all I have to say. Thank you. 3020 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen.
Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. I am only brought to my feet regarding the comments from the Hon. Member for Middle 3025 regarding drivers on the Isle of Man and people’s courtesy. All I can say is compared to when I have been driving in other jurisdictions I think we have got a lot to be thankful for over here. When I am leaving home in the morning there are always people letting me out into the traffic, there are always people stopping to let people walk across the road. I wonder when the Hon. Member was last up in Scotland following a caravan and the 3030 amount of noise that you get from the drivers behind that. I think the only recommendation that this has missed is that maybe you should avoid either cycling or driving with the Hon. Member because he seems to be getting most of the aggravation there! (Laughter) But on a serious note, Mr President, I have actually gone down Richmond Hill following a 3035 cyclist who has left me behind in a 50 mile-an-hour speed limit. Also going in in the morning – about courtesy of drivers – there will be about 50 drivers stuck behind one cyclist going into Santon and not once have I heard anybody tooting at their horn or anything because a person is cycling. So I would say courtesy on the Isle of Man is to be applauded. We should be saying to people how pleasant it is to drive on the Isle of Man compared to other jurisdictions. 3040 How many people have been on the motorway and been cut up either side? So quite frankly, the driving that we have got on the Isle of Man, yes, people will have the occasional bit where somebody cuts them up, but other than that I would say that the standard is very good for courtesy. So with that, Mr President, I would support the Strategy going forward, but I think the Hon. 3045 Member for Middle probably needs to drive somewhere else to see how well we are here.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe.
Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. 3050 I was not going to speak on this subject, but I do think that the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, is coming in for a bit of victimisation here. As a MAMIL, as a middle-aged man in lycra, (Laughter) he made some very valid points. I do support the Strategy and I am trusting the Ministers and Mrs Lord-Brennan when they say that this Strategy is going to be a framework off which future policies will hang, because 3055 Mr Shimmins made three very valid points: one about the need for regular vehicle checks, which is essential; more pedestrian crossings; and re-educating motorists about speed and reducing speed limits, because it depends whether you are a cyclist or a pedestrian or a parent with young children sending your kids off to walk to school on their own. It is very different to if you are in a car as a motorist; your experience of the road is very different. If you use the road as a 3060 cyclist, like Mr Shimmins does, you get a very different perspective. I can say that as someone who is married to a cyclist who regularly comes back and says, ‘Ugh! We were nearly knocked off again this morning,’ because we do need to re-educate our road users. In Garff a lot of parents drop their children off to my house in the mornings so that their kids can walk to school, because parents will not let their children cross the main road from Lonan to 3065 walk to school. It is too dangerous. The main road is too dangerous. Mrs Caine mentioned that ______619 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
there is going to be a derestriction of speed in Baldrine to let people … No, not a derestriction? Safer crossings? (Mrs Caine and another Member: Speed limits.) But that has only come about since a child was recently knocked over crossing the road trying to get to the bus stop. So the roads are dangerous and we do need more crossings and we do need slower speeds. 3070 Thank you.
A Member: The roads are not dangerous.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker. 3075 Mrs Sharpe: They are if you are a pedestrian.
Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President.
3080 Mrs Sharpe: Or a cyclist! (Interjection) They are dangerous.
The President: Order! Mr Baker.
3085 Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President. I am not going to add a great deal because I think most of what is necessary has been said, but I just want to pull out a couple of things that have not been picked out so far. It is very clear that the Minister’s Strategy document does clearly signal that there are some tough choices and some clear thinking that is going to be required over the coming years. 3090 This is not, I believe, a soft option which just dances around the issues; it is setting out a framework for a 10-year strategy towards a bold and ambitious vision of zero deaths. It would be, I think, naive to expect the Minister to say that we are going to go from where we are today to zero deaths in 10 years. We have seen other governments’ strategies come out and say, ‘We are going to change things radically and get to some mythical nirvana with no idea of how we 3095 are going to get there.’ I think what this Strategy does is it sets out a clear direction of travel, a journey for us to go on and some real life targets and I think that is absolutely sensible. I do not think it is ignoring the issues and there are going to be some difficult choices that come in front of us as an Hon. Court in the coming years. As I read the document, it is very clear there are some tough 3100 choices around how we think about managing the annual influx of visitors around the TT, in particular, and the Festival of Motorcycling – choices that may be inconvenient for some of us, that are going to have to be debated and concluded as to what we do. We have talked about younger drivers, we have talked about older drivers; those choices are not made in isolation, they are in the context of those people’s lives. 3105 So whatever we decide to do is going to have a context. Somebody earlier talked about not letting older drivers drive. That in certain circumstances might be the right action, but in other circumstances that could absolutely cut off their lifeline and magnify the issues of social isolation and mental health that we are going to be coming on to. So I think this is a really mature piece of work. It is great to see the four Departments and the 3110 two emergency services working together, as Minister Thomas said earlier. It is evidence based. We are using an international approach, but we are not just importing things from adjacent jurisdictions and saying, ‘Because this is what they do in England or Scotland or wherever, we are going to do it in the Isle of Man.’ What we are saying is we are going to find out what international best practice is and we are going to apply it into the Isle of Man context. The Isle of 3115 Man context is unique. We know that. There is no other jurisdiction that has got something like the TT course right in the middle of it that changes its character for at least two periods a year and arguably more with things like the rallies and the Southern 100. ______620 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
So we have got to take our situation, apply the best practice and understand the data. We cannot make up policy, as we are in danger doing here. Mrs Sharpe, with due respect, talked 3120 about how regular vehicle checks are essential. I do not know that they are essential in the context of MOTs, which is the inference of what is being talked about here. We need to look at the evidence and we need to do the things that are going to change the outcomes. Mr Shimmins’ very erudite speech painted a picture, but unfortunately the picture is quite different from that that he painted. If you actually look at the data that is in the report, actually 3125 we are on to some really positive trends. Page 411 of the report actually shows that accidents and fatalities are reducing. So there are good things happening already. This is actually our first ever road safety strategy, which for me was probably the most amazing thing – that we have not confronted this before. We have now confronted it. We have got a plan. It is going to need fine tuning, it is a living document, but full marks to the Minister 3130 for bringing it forward, for prompting the debate. It is not going to be all things to all people. For every Mr Shimmins – and I am trying to avoid the image of him as a middle-aged man in lycra, because it is before the watershed – (Laughter) but for every Mr Shimmins saying this does not go far enough there will be others who say it goes too far; and actually that probably means it is about right, because we have got a whole range of different perspectives on the Isle of Man and 3135 this Hon. Court has got to set the tone and the direction. I think that is what the Minister and his team have done here. I am encouraged by the Strategy. We need to see the implementation; we need see it play through; we need to see the monitoring against it over the annual reporting. Let’s give it full support and let’s give it a chance to move us forward. 3140 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Miss Bettison.
Miss Bettison: Thank you, Mr President. 3145 Having sat here today, what I can see is that everyone has got stories and experiences as car users, as cyclists, as pedestrians and as parents of children who want to walk to school alone – and for me that is certainly terrifying. But it is all about perception. So as a car driver, cyclists can seem slow and it is incredibly frustrating; as a cyclist or a pedestrian the cars seem so incredibly fast and it is terrifying. 3150 What I have seen from dealing directly with the Road Safety Team and working with them in my role in Home Affairs, is a group of people who are absolutely clear that we need clear evidence to base our data on. We need to look at road studies, and whenever I have raised a road where someone has felt that there is an increase in speed, that there are breaches of the speed limits, there has been an incredibly detailed survey then looking at that specific road, 3155 taking speed assessments, looking at the conditions, looking at the parking, looking at the road users and then making an objective suggestion and recommendation based on evidence. And that is what for me this Strategy is about, and that is why for me we cannot rush on ahead and say, ‘These are the outcomes’. What we need to do is look at the facts, look at the evidence and use that in the context of the Safe System Approach which I think makes excellent sense for our 3160 Island, and then bring in and implement the appropriate measures for road safety on our Island. I, for one, think that we have got the right people in the jobs to achieve that. And I think this is absolutely the right foundation for that.
The President: I call on Mr Malarkey to reply. 3165 Two Members: Hurray.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Thank you, Mr President.
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A very interesting debate and a very interesting discussion this afternoon, and I thank 3170 everybody who has participated. I will try and go through as many as possible, but I think I would like to start, Mr President – and one or two people I think have got the wrong end of the stick as to why we are here this afternoon. This is a strategy. This is a starting point from where we want to go in the future. This is something we have never had before. This is a strategy that has brought together the DOI and 3175 ourselves with the Department of Health, the Department of Education, with the Fire Brigade, the Police Force and the Ambulance Service. This is the start of something new and when you start something new you need to have a strategy of where you are going to go with this new idea. This has never been done before on this Island. It is well overdue. We have got mixed facts that come in from all over the place: from 3180 the Ambulance Service, and the Police, and the Fire Brigade. Nothing is co-ordinated. Nothing has been brought together. So for people to turn around and say, ‘We should do this!’ I say to them, ‘Where is your evidence?’ We have not got evidence, because the way we have collected evidence in the past has been very wishy-washy and it has not been brought together by Departments and by 3185 emergency services, like we intend to do in the future. This is why we have decided to go down the Safe System Approach because it is what other people use. It is what other jurisdictions use. So, as I point out before I go to answer some of the questions that have been raised, this is a starting point. Where we go and what we are looking for here is Tynwald support and I would like all of Tynwald to support today if possible by the time I have finished addressing one or two 3190 of the questions because the next stage, if we get the full support, is the action plan. Now, we have not brought the action plan to you today because I cannot bring you an action plan unless I have your support of the strategy moving forward, which is what it is all about this afternoon. This is why I am asking for your support on a very important issue that affects every one of us on this Island, because roads are used by everybody, as I said earlier in my speech, whether it is a 3195 horse rider, a kiddie in a pram with a mother, or a car driver, or a cyclist. So I hope I have made that quite clear. You are voting today, or supporting today should I say, a strategy for the future – that is what I am asking you to do. Now, I will very quickly go through – and there is a lot of repetition. I tried to pick out one or two where the main comments were: where have we got our percentages from and our targets 3200 from? This is a 10-year strategy so I am not going to try and do what Sweden did and say we are going to go down to zero in 10 years on serious accidents, because that is an impossible target – it is a totally impossible target. What we have done is we have looked at what is globally accepted as targets and we have tried to adapt our conditions and our roads to those global targets. You have to start somewhere. You do not give yourself a target you cannot reach 3205 because that is not a vision, that is just an ambition. So we have given ourselves what we think to start with are reasonable targets to aim for. They are three-year targets because the next review to read the Report will be in 2021, when the next parliament comes in, and they can judge for themselves whether we have reached those targets or whether we need to do something else moving forward. You will also notice 3210 when we are putting the stats together we are using three years because we are a small jurisdiction. So to use one year’s figures against next year’s figures you might have one hiccup year in the middle which will throw your targets right out of the window. So we use three years and it will be a rolling three years as we go forward to give us some idea as to whether we are reaching our targets. But we do have to start somewhere, so that is why the targets have been 3215 picked. As I said, they are global. They have been moved just slightly to the conditions we have – motor sports events and everything. So we have tried to adapt the targets to fit in with them. I was asked by Mr Henderson with regard to when we went out for public consultation. There were a lot of good responses and I thank the Member of Council for the involved letter that he sent through which has been obviously taken on board, and hopefully within the next week or so
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3220 the responses to that consultation will be online for people to see. But, again, there was no point in doing that before we had the support of Tynwald moving forward. I did actually mention enforcement cameras, but I do not think that would go down very well on the Isle of Man. But you never know for the future, that might be something that might be looked at. 3225 Mr Hooper mentioned enforcement: I think enforcement – and many people mentioned enforcement this afternoon – is very important. There is not much point in having the legislation unless we can enforce the legislation, and to enforce the legislation … As many people know my Department has been pretty well tightly strung out for the last few years financially, but we have this year put a bid into Treasury and I am hoping very nicely that Treasury … Because this 3230 Strategy today does have the support of the Council that there will be some help from Treasury this coming year, so that we can drive this Strategy forward if it is successful today and gets the support of this Court today. So, yes, we do need enforcement and I do need support from Treasury to increase that enforcement. I can personally say that I was extremely disappointed this year on the amount of drunk 3235 drivers that were done. Now, whether that is down to enforcement or whether that is down to just really silly people not getting the message – which brings me round in a complete circle to what Mr Crookall actually said about the report. The most used word in that whole report is ‘education’ – education, education, education. We are obviously not getting the message forward if there were 23 people done for drink-driving during the campaign. 3240 Again, I think the Chief Constable this year changed his approach a little bit on how he approached the vehicle testing. So there were 220 vehicles tested I think in November and, of those, 120 of them had defective lights. If I am correct, I think five had defective tyres; but the main bulk was lights. So that nicely moves me into this theory that we should all go out and have MOTs. Now, I can 3245 have an MOT done tomorrow on my car and my bulb might go the following day as I come out of the garage. Just because a lamp bulb has gone is no reason to impose MOTs. What is a good thing to do is to educate the driver of the car that they should at least look at their lights once a week, once a fortnight; look at their tyres and look at the tyre pressures, because you can have an MOT done in November and if you are doing nothing with your car until the following 3250 October – you might have a bald tyre, you might have deflated tyres, you might have three lamp bulbs out. An MOT is not a cure for everything. We have got no documented proof that defective vehicles are the cause of a lot of accidents. We have got no evidence, and I keep going back to evidence. There was an interesting comment made by Mr Shimmins about being the worst drivers that 3255 some of his friends have actually seen. Where is your evidence? Because if you have not got evidence, I cannot take that. The same as I have not got evidence and our Department has not got evidence and the Police have not got evidence on speeders and whether speeding is causing every accident on the Mountain, for instance; or is it defective tyres on a vehicle; or is it weather conditions – is it ice or is it snow? We do not know that because we do not have that evidence 3260 because it has never been collected in the past, Mr President. I keep going round in circles about the evidence which is what today is all about. I will briefly thank Mr Thomas and my fellow Ministers for their support in this policy today. Mr Cregeen is quite right: I have seen some horrendous drivers across the UK, a darn sight worse than they are on the Isle of Man at times. Mr Henderson is totally right that half the people in 3265 the Isle of Man do not know how to use roundabouts. It is education. I go back to education. (Interjection) There are traffic collisions, minor ones, on roundabouts probably on a daily basis because unfortunately we are obviously not educating people how to use roundabouts properly. I go with that. Let’s have a look: do we need more zebra crossings? Well, there might be a case for zebra crossings and you know there are some very … I know Mr Shimmins mentioned 3270 zebra crossings –
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A Member: It is not black and white, though, is it?
The Minister: There are some very tight controls as to where you can actually put zebra 3275 crossings. I am aware of this through a long campaign with Mr Cretney trying to get a zebra crossing put on Stevenson Way. We fought very hard and it was not until he actually became the Minister of the Department that we finally got a zebra crossing – and I thanked you for that at the time. Again, people complained about speed and we have heard today about 30 mile-an-hour 3280 zones and 20 mile-an-hour zones. We complained constantly about Stevenson Way, about the speeders coming up and down. So DOI went out and they put their little tapes across the road and they were left there for a month. Then we got to go back and have look at it, and in actual fact we were wrong, there was only the odd driver that was doing the excessive speed. So when we hear about, ‘Let’s have an all-Island speed limit’, why should the majority suffer because the 3285 minority do not quite realise what risks they are taking when they are going over the Mountain or other places at high speed? So I am most definitely, myself personally, not in favour of an all- Island speed limit. In fact I think a former Minister for the Department of Transport, Mr Shimmin, back in 2004 decided at that time that it would be good for us to have an all-Island speed limit. So he went 3290 out to public consultation on it and I remember it extremely well, there were campaigns going in both directions. But the overwhelming result that came back – because I Googled it the other day – was 69% of those responding did not want an all-Island speed limit, they just wanted enforcement on the speed limits that we already had. So we are back to enforcement. Mr President, I could go on and on. I am trying to cover as many of the questions that were 3295 asked and I could keep us here for another hour if I took every individual one. I must say I was starting to feel a bit sorry for Mr Cretney when it was doom and gloom for us, silver-haired, over-65s earlier on with it being his birthday today and I thought what has he let himself in for? And he stood up and defended himself quite well in the end, anyway. There are things that the Strategy can look at and the action plan can look at with regard to 3300 age, at all ages. I mean, you have got to see some of the stats and it was mentioned today that the bad area is the 50- to 55-year-olds and these figures to me when I looked at them were quite surprising. But I remember looking in the Drug and Alcohol Strategy that the heavy drinkers of today are the over-50s to over-60s drinkers, which was a figure that actually surprised me at the time as well. So maybe sometimes we are looking in the wrong direction. I do not know because 3305 I have not got the stats and I have not got the vision. And until we get the real facts we cannot make these decisions. So this afternoon I am going to ask you all to support our Strategy. I mean, I have one further one for Mr Shimmins –
3310 Mr Shimmins: You have not answered any of my questions, not one!
The Minister: Oh, I will come on to your questions.
Mr Shimmins: That will be good, thank you. 3315 The Minister: I will say to you … Mr President, I have mentioned MOTs and the reason I do not feel that MOTs would be a good thing to have. Well, Mr Shimmins’ main talk was –
3320 Mr Shimmins: Benchmarking. Let me help you, if you cannot answer my questions –
The President: Order, order! No talking across the Chamber, as the Hon. Member well knows. ______624 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
Mr Malarkey. 3325 The Minister: Benchmarking will be done every year. There will be an annual report that will be brought back every year and it will be reviewed and it will be for Tynwald Members and everybody to see, every year. We are not trying to hide anything, we are trying to come forward once we have started to get some facts and figures together and we will give progress reports. 3330 Data collection was another point made by Mr Shimmins; benchmarking was made by Mr Shimmins; annual report was made by Mr Shimmins. We will be doing all of that and coming back every year in our annual report with facts and figures. Unfortunately, most of what Mr Shimmins was on about was about speed, Mr President, and I think I have covered the speed aspect as much as I possibly can. We have covered the angry 3335 motorist scenario. And, again, I have got no proof about cars held together with tape. Where is the proof? What do we have documented that proves that all these vehicles on the Isle of Man are being held together by tape? There is certainly no evidence that we have at the moment, but maybe after 12 months and maybe when we have started comparing notes between the Police, the Fire Brigade, the DOI and the various other organisations involved in this, we might have 3340 proof and they might tell us that the vehicles on the roads are not in a good condition. But at the moment, Mr President, we do not have this evidence and again I go back to the strategy that we are here today to try and drive forward. One thing in all of this and through the whole report is I personally feel that more than anything else this is about education, it is not about legislation. We need to educate, not 3345 legislate. We need to teach people how speed kills. We have to teach people how looking after their car can be seen. But it is not just about drivers. It is about members of the public who walk around in these dark nights at six o’clock or seven o’clock dressed in black from top to bottom and cannot be seen by motorists. It is also about cyclists who ride two abreast along the road when they are only supposed to 3350 keep single file, or are not wearing the correct type of luminous clothing. Why do we not bring in legislation so every cyclist should have (Interjections) a hi-vis vest on and also wear a protective helmet, because maybe it has been proved that there has been an accident where a cyclist has hurt their head? But we do not have proof to even go down that road of implementing that type of legislation. 3355 I go back to what this Strategy is all about. Let’s get the facts and let’s do it right. Let’s not legislate for the sake of legislation. Let’s educate, because it is in everybody’s interest to do that. And with that, Mr President, I would like to move.
The Speaker: Hear, hear. 3360 The President: Hon. Members, the motion has been set out at Item 5 in the name of the Minister for Home Affairs: ‘That Tynwald receives and endorses the Isle of Man Government’s Road Safety Strategy’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
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In the Keys – Ayes 21, Noes 1
FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Mr Shimmins Mr Ashford Mr Baker Miss Bettison Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys, 21 votes for, and 1 against.
In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Miss August-Hanson None Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Mr Henderson Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe
3365 The President: And in the Council 8 for, none against. The motion therefore carries.
6. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee – Second Report 2018-19: Mental Health – Amended motion carried
The Chair of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee (Mr Cretney) to move:
That the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Second Report for the Session 2018-19: Mental Health [PP No 2018/0151] be received and the following recommendations be approved:
Recommendation 1 That the Department of Health and Social Care should review the operational and legal basis for the confidentiality protocols in place in the Mental Health Service and disseminate clear guidance to all staff.
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Recommendation 2 That Tynwald is of the opinion that every effort should be made to ensure that patients’ records are retained and referred appropriately, and that patients and, where appropriate, next of kin should be kept informed insofar as practical and in conformity with relevant confidentiality law.
Recommendation 3 That further provision be put in place by the Department to support carers and that this provision should be available throughout the Island.
Recommendation 4 That the Department for Health and Social Care make available clear guidance for service users and families on how they can access the available complaints systems.
Recommendation 5 That the Mental Health Service review its training procedures relating to the 1998 Act and disseminate guidance to all staff on its relevant requirements and provisions.
Recommendation 6 That mental capacity legislation containing Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards be drafted and introduced into the Branches of Tynwald.
Recommendation 7 That the Department of Health and Social Care submit a yearly report to Tynwald on the progress towards the goals of the Mental Health and Wellbeing Strategy. In particular this report should focus on waiting times for patients in all service areas, support for carers and signposting and communication between service areas.
[GD No 2018/0094] is relevant to this Item.
The President: We turn to Item 6, Social Affairs Policy Review Committee. I call on the Chair of the Committee, Mr Cretney.
3370 The Chairman of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee (Mr Cretney): Thank you, Mr President. One in four people will be diagnosed with a mental illness in their lifetime. Mental ill-health directly or indirectly affects every member of society. At any time, one in six people are suffering with a mental illness, and mental ill-health constitutes almost half of all illness in people aged 3375 under 65. Mental ill-health can lead to the breakdown of relationships, can keep people out of work and can prevent individuals from contributing to or feeling a part of society. According to UK charity the Mental Health Foundation, over 90% of suicides and suicide attempts are associated with mental illness. In 2007 the mean five-year suicide rate in the Isle of Man was 8.54 deaths 3380 per 100,000 residents. By the end of 2017 the rate was 10.1. There is also an economic cost to mental ill-health: the Department of Health and Social Care estimates this to be £165 million each year. It is time that we took mental health as seriously as we do physical health. At the first meeting of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee following the General Election of September 2016, we agreed to undertake an inquiry into the provision of mental 3385 health services. The report before you was two years in the making and is informed by the evidence of almost 50 respondents. I would like to take this opportunity to express our gratitude to all of those who gave evidence, in particular the evidence of the many service users and
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relatives who came forward and gave us an insight into mental healthcare that would have otherwise been unattainable. Thank you. 3390 The Mental Health Service has historically been, and to an extent still is, the Cinderella of services; it is overburdened and under-resourced. People should not have to wait nearly a year to see a psychologist. People should not be passed between services. People should not have to suffer to the point of crisis before they can be seen by a mental health professional. People should receive the care they need, when and where they need it. As we say in this Report, the 3395 size of our Island, the size of our Health and Social Services and the strength of our community present an opportunity to excel in mental health provision. This is an opportunity we are yet to seize. The Mental Health Service has over 4,200 open cases – that is around 5% of our population – and at present it is too difficult for people to obtain the care they need. We heard of children 3400 waiting 18 months to be seen by Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services. The waiting time for an individual needing psychology is nine months. The deterioration that can occur in such periods, and the harm that does to a person and their loved ones, is enormous and must not be understated. Furthermore, when conditions are left to deteriorate, the amount of resource required to treat them increases exponentially. Cutting waiting times must be a priority for the 3405 Mental Health Service. This should be achieved primarily through the increased provision of lower-level therapies which will decrease demand on higher-level services. Simultaneously, however, further higher-level provision is required to clear the existing backlog of patients. Such lengthy waiting times would not be tolerated in the field of physical healthcare, so why are they here? 3410 A significant barrier to care for some is the administration required to access services. A mentally unwell person may struggle to pick up the phone, to complete pages of paperwork, or to attend appointments. Michael Manning of Graih told us that 94% of homeless people report some form of mental health problem, and how the difficulties of homelessness make accessing care all the more challenging. Accessing care must be made easier, and particularly so for 3415 individuals who are further incapacitated by their circumstances. The Mental Health Service must be proactive in engaging people with its services. We heard that when individuals leave in-patient care there is little care and support available to them in the community. These incredibly vulnerable people face a cliff edge. It is not enough to merely stabilise a patient and send them packing: a continuous care plan that is sensitive to 3420 the service user’s social and healthcare needs must be in place to enable their full recovery. Mental health issues must be viewed and treated holistically. More needs to be done to empower people to become and remain mentally well. Physical exercise is key to mental wellness. Swimming passes and exercise classes used to be available but have been withdrawn. This is baffling, and has adversely affected many. These simple and 3425 cheap therapies are highly effective at improving people’s mental health and reducing demand for higher tier services. Furthermore, improved mental wellness confers wider economic benefits through lower absenteeism and increased productivity in the workforce. By removing such initiatives, the Department has failed to view and treat mental health holistically and has failed to promote mental wellness in the community. 3430 Communication and collaboration are essential to effective service delivery. Going back a few years, in the area of mental health, inter-agency co-operation and information sharing was very poor, as was communication within the Mental Health Service. Records were lost, people were directed to the wrong services, bounced between or turned away from services and fell through the cracks. There is, however, evidence that significant work has been undertaken by the 3435 Department to improve both internal and external communication and co-operation. The Committee particularly welcomes the creation of the Mental Health Partnership Board, made up of representatives from the Police, the Mental Health Commission and the Department of Health and Social Care. This good work must continue.
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Mental health issues often begin at a young age. Excluding dementia, 50% of lifetime mental 3440 illnesses begin by age 14. There are three full-time equivalent educational psychologists employed by the Department of Education, Sport and Culture. That is three people to care for the health of 12,000 students. As I mentioned earlier in my speech, the waiting time for an ill child to be seen by CAMHS is extraordinary. Furthermore, there is little or no care available to children outside of medication or in-patient care. It is unacceptable and even cruel that ill 3445 children are being left to deteriorate to the point that they require drugs or hospital admission. Less intensive therapies must be available to children within the community and a clear mental health pathway from education must be developed and implemented, and along that pathway there must be adequate provision at all levels of need. If I can go off my script for a moment, Mr President, just to thank the Minister for Health, 3450 who emphasised his commitment to early intervention once again this morning. I really do appreciate his intervention in that regard. (Mr Perkins: Hear, hear.) Mr President, when a loved one requires treatment for mental illness, it is an unsettling experience for those close to them and the patient’s relatives will want to know as much as possible about what is going on. Repeatedly throughout our inquiry we heard from relatives who 3455 had been distressed by the lack of information they received about the well-being of their loved ones. We are sympathetic to them, but also acknowledge that the Mental Health Service has to act within the law. We also, sadly, heard of cases where people had been inappropriately given information about service users. This is an inexcusable breach of service users’ rights and the trust they place in the Mental Health Service. We therefore recommend, in recommendation 1, 3460 that the service reviews its confidentiality protocols and disseminates clear guidance to its staff. Recommendation 2 also deals with the handling of information. Caring for someone with a mental illness can be burdensome. Carers do invaluable, selfless work, but at present are almost entirely unsupported. In recommendation 3 we are saying that more can and should be done. The Mental Health Commission believes that respite care would 3465 provide an invaluable opportunity for carers to recharge. The Department of Health and Social Care has access to three respite beds for dementia patients, but these are run at only 33% capacity and could therefore be opened up to patients with other illnesses, to provide respite to more carers. A support group, we believe, would also go a long way to support carers; so would a webpage or leaflet pack containing all the information relevant to caring for someone with a 3470 mental illness. These are simple, cheap, common-sense measures that the Mental Health Service can adopt to make the lives of these important people that bit easier. When things go wrong in healthcare the consequences can be devastating, but failings should be seen as opportunities from which to learn. The Mental Health Service’s complaints system is complex and difficult to navigate. As Mr Masserick from the Mental Health Commission 3475 highlighted, it is unrealistic to expect someone with inhibited internal functioning to navigate a confusing complaints system without support. We also heard from service users and their families that they were put off from complaining, as they did not want to be treated differently for doing so. Unfortunately, such concerns are not unfounded. When we spoke with the Department we got the impression that they did not always take complaints seriously and at 3480 times wrote complainants off as problem customers. Investigating and addressing credible complaints is a vital pillar of clinical governance. It makes little sense to be coming up with high- level strategies to then ignore this valuable source of information on what is happening at the operational level. We recommend, in recommendation 4, that the Department of Health and Social Care makes available clear guidance on how to access the available complaints systems. A 3485 transparent and robust approach to failings will only improve care in the long run. One in five Police incidents involves a mental health issue, and I am pleased to inform this Hon. Court that the interaction of the Police with mentally ill people is an area where practice has and continues to make progress lately. We were reassured to learn that the number of instances where mentally ill people are transported to a place of safety in a police vehicle has 3490 reduced considerably, and that now police custody is almost never used as a place of safety. ______629 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
Both practices were an inappropriate response to mental distress. A pilot is now operating under which mental health professionals are situated in police custody and are available to attend incidents with the Police. In our recent oral evidence session with the Department of Home Affairs we heard from the Chief Constable how welcome this pilot is. The progress toward an 3495 effective, joined-up approach, which recognises the vulnerability of mentally ill people, is to be commended. Detention for assessment or treatment under the Mental Health Act is one of the few times a person may be lawfully deprived of their liberty outside a criminal context. Therefore, it is crucial that these powers are exercised correctly and judiciously, as anything other would be a gross 3500 interference with the civil liberties and human rights of some of society’s most vulnerable individuals. But defensive practice must be avoided, and recognition must be given to the fact that a person may not, for a time, be best placed to consider what is in their own interests as well as those of the public, and medical necessity may need to prevail. We are not satisfied that all Mental Health Service staff are adequately versed in all the elements of the Act relating to a 3505 person once they are detained. For example, we heard of one staff member who was unaware of the simple process for identifying a patient’s nearest relative, a person with extensive powers under the Act. Therefore, we recommend, in recommendation 5, that the Mental Health Service reviews its training procedures and disseminates clear guidance on the Act to all existing staff. I have noted that the Government response proposes an amendment to this recommendation 3510 and I will not be objecting to this amendment, if it is moved. I see it is in front of us. During the course of our inquiry it was brought to our attention that we lack legislation containing deprivation of liberty safeguards. The need for such safeguards arises in the context of patients who lack capacity; that is the ability to make informed decisions. Some persons lacking capacity may not actively object to their admission into a secure care environment and 3515 will be admitted as voluntary patients. However, due to their lack of capacity, they cannot truly be said to consent to their admission. There is no objective difference between a person admitted as such and one detained under a section of the Mental Health Act, and both classes of patient will usually reside together. The European Convention on Human Rights requires that no one is to be deprived of their liberty other than by a procedure prescribed by law and that they 3520 shall have recourse to a court of law to review the lawfulness of their detention. Therefore, we recommend, in recommendation 6, that legislation containing a statutory framework to protect such persons be developed and introduced into the Branches of Tynwald. We must live up to our international obligations and safeguard the ancient and fundamental right to liberty, whilst ensuring that individuals lacking capacity are appropriately safeguarded. 3525 Mr President, a lot of progress has been made to tackle the stigma that has surrounded mental health historically and to place mental health on the same footing as physical health. However, there is still a long way to go. The Department of Health and Social Care’s Strategic Plan for Mental Health and Wellbeing is of excellent design and intent. Unfortunately, it has not been adequately resourced or fully implemented thus far. There continues to be a lack of 3530 community care, preventative care, and early intervention, and mental health is not yet treated holistically. That said, positive change is happening. Our Report concludes by recommending that the Department submits a yearly report to Tynwald on its progress towards the objectives of its strategy. In particular, this report should focus on waiting times for patients in all service areas, support for carers, and signposting and communication between service areas. In this 3535 way, the Committee hopes that the good work which has begun will continue to get the attention it deserves from this Hon. Court and we will start to see the much needed improvements in the years to come. That is the end of my written comments, but I just want to put on record once again that as a lay person there is nothing more difficult, as a public representative, than trying to help people 3540 with mental illness, and I know others have had that difficulty as well. So I do not underestimate the difficulties that there are for the staff involved in this area of work, but it is very important and we must do our best to improve the situation. I hope that, starting today, we will. ______630 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
I beg to move.
3545 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins.
Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
3550 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. Can I start by thanking the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee for the Report that we have in front of us today. In fact, it seems an age ago now but I was actually a member of the 3555 Committee when the inquiry into mental health initially started and this Report started taking shape. I would also like to make absolutely clear from the start that the recommendations within the Report are overwhelmingly supported by the Department, subject to one minor amendment, which the Chairman of the Committee has already alluded to, that I will be 3560 proposing to recommendation 5. The importance of mental health should never be underestimated. It is absolutely fundamental to the well-being of each and every one of us. It is essential, if we are to provide a joined-up, modern, fit-for-purpose Health Service, that mental health is treated and given the same importance as physical health. In order to do that, it does mean there need to be more 3565 resources directed at mental health provision, and that is something that as a Department and as Minister we must prioritise. In particular, we need to focus on waiting lists, with particular focus within that on the lower level tier 1 and tier 2 services and also, crucially, the services we provide for younger people. We must never underestimate how important early intervention is when it comes to mental health and particularly mental health of the young. 3570 Things have already started to develop and move on. In the last year the Department has formed the Community Division by merging the Mental Health Community Services and our Adult Social Care sections in order to provide a joined-up service and break down those barriers that have developed between the services. There has been improved working with and support for the Police, who many times have 3575 found themselves on the front line of mental health crisis situations. That has been not just in provision within the custody suite, but also by ensuring that in many cases a mental health professional can accompany the Police on the ground. There is still much more work to be done in this area, but I think the steps are slowly but surely moving in the right direction. The Integrated Community Service pilot in the west of the Island is now also up and running 3580 and an Autism Pathway is continuing to be developed and driven forward. There is a long-term plan developed to provide single point of service access to allow people to access the right service at the time that they need it rather than having to be signposted to multiple different services. All this will be aided by an integrated digital care record, meaning that all relevant data will be available to be accessed by professionals at once. All of these developments are designed 3585 to improve the outcomes for individuals and their families and make it easier for them to access those services and seek help in the first place. Turning to the recommendations, Mr President, as I said at the start, they are overwhelmingly supported. In terms of recommendation 1, the policies have been reviewed in light of GDPR and there is also an employee guide now in place in relation to the new legislation, 3590 along with contact details for the Department’s data protection officer, should queries arise. In relation to recommendation 2, the Department has in place retention of records policies listing how long data should be held. This policy is publicly available and the data protection officer again is available to the public to answer any queries and questions that may arise from patients and service users. ______631 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
3595 Recommendation 3: the Department is fully committed to working with partner organisations to ensure support can be given to carers. We must never underestimate the contribution that carers make to our society. They deserve our utmost respect and support in everything that they do. That also includes those organisations, such as Crossroads, that facilitate and help in that area and work exceptionally hard to provide support for those 3600 dedicated individuals to act as carers and facilitate them to continue to act. Recommendation 4: there is a legal obligation on the Department to follow the National Health Service Complaints Regulations 2004, and that is contained within section 38 of the National Health Service Act 2001. Since the Committee started its work in producing this Report, there have been a number of changes in the way complaints are handled. There is now a 3605 directorate-wide complaints procedure that will deliver a consistency in approach when dealing with complaints. Specialist training has also been provided for managers and complaint handlers and been delivered by an external trainer. There is now also a standardised approach, with face- to-face meetings being offered and facilitated where accepted by complainants. There is also a current review of the complaint leaflet being undertaken to make it more user friendly and 3610 accessible for those trying to access complaints with the service. With recommendation 5, while like the other recommendations it is accepted, I do have one minor amendment that has been circulated and which, from the indications of the Chairman, the Committee appears happy to accept. The amendment simply makes clear that the staff who should receive the training mentioned in recommendation 5 are the staff where the training is 3615 relevant to them and the role that they undertake within the service. Otherwise, we would be talking about training up the auxiliary staff that would not deal with that area anyway. In relation to recommendation 6, capacity legislation remains a legislative priority for the Department. It is important to acknowledge at this point that there have been difficulties in resourcing this due to other demands. One of those such demands has been the need for the 3620 Department to examine all legislation and regulation under which it currently operates to ensure that it is Brexit ready – a very topical one to raise with what is going on across the water today. There is also the fact that the UK has been updating their mental capacity legislation and so it has been absolutely important and crucial that we monitor and examine those changes being undertaken to ensure that any legislation we bring forward is not out of date before it even 3625 reaches the floor of the Branches. I can categorically state here and now that the capacity legislation is a priority for me as Minister and one that I firmly intend to deliver on. Finally – you will be relieved to hear, Mr President – recommendation 7 is again supported. I think it is important that Tynwald is kept informed of the progress being made to deliver on the Mental Health and Wellbeing Strategy. It is an excellent strategy and I think if we can deliver 3630 everything that is within that we will have an absolutely transformed service. And so I believe that an annual report is a very sensible way forward. In conclusion, mental health for far too long was something not to be spoken about, or carried with it an undeserved stigma. Yet, as I said at the start, it is fundamental to the well- being of each and every one of us and the society that we live in. Depression is the second 3635 leading cause of years lived with disability worldwide and it is actually the primary cause in 26 countries around the world. The World Health Organisation estimates that around 20% of the world’s children and adolescents have mental health issues; and, as the Chairman alluded to in his speech, about half of those mental disorders begin before the age of 14. If that is not a message of why early intervention is absolutely key, I do not know what is. 3640 One thing I just want to add in, in a personal comment, which the Chairman referred to in his opening remarks on this item, is the use of medication. This is only a personal view, but my personal view is that medication should always be the last resort, not the first. I have always come from the point of view that medication masks a problem, it does not resolve a problem, and I think that is something very crucial and important that we bear in mind as well. 3645 From my point of view, it is therefore time that mental health did receive equal recognition to that placed on physical health. We need to work towards that as a priority, so that any ______632 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
remaining stigma around discussing or seeking support for mental health issues is finally consigned to the dustbin of history, where it belongs, and we work towards developing a one- point integrated care model that allows people to access the support they require when they 3650 require it. With that, Mr President, I am happy to endorse the recommendations and hope that Hon. Members will support them today. I also beg to move the minor amendment to recommendation 5 that has been circulated standing in my name:
In recommendation 5 after ‘all staff’ and before ‘on its relevant requirements and provisions’ insert the words ‘who require this understanding as part of their role’.
The President: Hon. Members, I have six Hon. Members who so far wish to speak, but I think 3655 provided we are not repetitive and confine debate to the Report and its recommendations we will make good progress. Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Mr President, thank you. 3660 Can I congratulate the Committee on its Report as well as commend Government for the constructive manner in which it has been received, and to that extent it might just be expeditious if I second the Minister’s amendment. It makes perfect sense. I speak as Chairman of the Select Committee on Poverty and want to reassure the Court, particularly the members of the Committee, that the good work that the Social Affairs Policy 3665 Review Committee has done will continue to be used. The many Hon. Members who attended the workshop on poverty in December will appreciate the close correlation between mental health and poverty. As such, this Report represents an excellent foundation of research for us. There were certain points highlighted in the Report that bear picking out inasmuch as they will affect our work. The first is that the 3670 Committee has highlighted that people with mental health conditions are a hard-to-reach group, unlikely to be the usual suspects for engaging with a parliamentary committee. Perhaps this stems from stigma, but also perhaps they have other things in their lives to worry about than at times the seemingly mysterious activities of this Court. In recognising that, the Poverty Committee is looking at how we can reach out and find people in their own comfort zones to 3675 talk about their experiences so that these accounts of Manx poverty have a better chance of being heard. Hon. Members have also had the opportunity to learn more about the Mental Health First Aid course at a presentation late last year. Speaking as Chair of the Southern Authorities Healthcare Committee, made up of the southern MHKs and representatives from each of the 3680 local authorities, we are actively exploring the provision of a free two-day mental health first aid course, in conjunction with the Department, for those in our community in the south of the Island. The ambition is to raise awareness and bolster but in no way replace the low-level community awareness and improvement at grassroots level in our communities. In closing, there is something that I will just drop in for now and pick up at a future date with 3685 Government, probably. That is around paragraph 59 of the Report where we see ineffective follow-up around discharge from residential institutional care back into the general community, especially in terms of follow-up appointments, but also in general life support and things like housing, benefits and other signposting. There appears to me to be a crossover here in terms of similar challenges facing discharge from hospital as well as discharge from prison. There is, I 3690 would suggest, some common expertise and some common difficulty here and it would probably be of help if these services at least got together to compare notes and see if they could learn from one another. With that, Mr President, and noting your remarks about brevity, I will conclude and support the Report. ______633 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
3695 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Unfortunately, Eaghtyrane, my input will not be as brief as Mr Speaker’s and I will be speaking on professional experience to some of what has been said in the Report. I hope what I 3700 say will not be repetitive, or not quite duplicating what has been said before. I noticed, Eaghtyrane, the Chairman of the Committee during his opening statement made special reference time and time again to the fact that the Mental Health Service must do better, must do more, must do this, must do that. That is fair enough, he is making the Committee observations. What I have to say though is that the whole tone of the Report that he gave to our 3705 Court had the potential of giving a perception that the Mental Health Services are under- performing, making mistakes and not doing very well with themselves. Well, what I am going to report, Eaghtyrane, is in fact that in a lot of cases the complete opposite is the truth of the matter. What I would like to point out, Eaghtyrane, and it is quite clear from the Committee’s Report, 3710 and it is very clear from what the Health Minister said, that there are resource issues here that are in the main fundamental to the problems that the Chairman has highlighted in his opening comments. Now, it is a resource issue inasmuch as the MHS has not got the budget it requires. That is not the MHS’s fault: it is not their fault that they have not got the budget that they require; it might not be the Department’s fault that they have not got the budget that they 3715 require; it may be that it is a national issue, and it may be that it is a national issue that has to be reflected over the years through the Programme for Government in the recognition of the status of the mental healthcare that we provide here on the Isle of Man. I will go on, Eaghtyrane, to praise the efforts and the improvements and so on that have been undertaken, but I just make the point that you cannot knock the service completely from one 3720 particular direction. It cannot defend itself really and we know it has not got the resources to deliver ultimately what we would like to see if we hit all the gold bar standards all over the place. That is the point I am getting at. So we need to be careful how we point our observations, Eaghtyrane. I have read through the Committee’s Report and I thank them for taking the time and effort 3725 in examining the whole issue of mental health in the Isle of Man and for pulling this Report together, and for collecting and amassing all the evidence that they have. I do not envy the Committee’s Clerk one bit on that. I note the Department’s response and support for the recommendations and I think that is a fair and pragmatic acknowledgement of the situation. I must thank the Minister, political colleagues and senior staff for that. However, I have to say 3730 that the whole issue of mental health is such a huge subject, a complex matter, and the different facets associated with it that it would probably take 10 such reports to do the subject any real justice. I am not decrying the work of the Committee, far from it, but just wish to point out that this really is a snapshot of the whole service provision and issues relating to the Isle of Man, and indeed the problems and challenges faced on a daily basis by our Mental Health Service Team. It 3735 cannot be taken as a full, whole picture in my view and professional experience. We see evidence taken from some current and past service users, I think eight of those were quoted in the Report, but we do have in real terms around 4,500 registered patients to all aspects of the service. Mental health, as we have heard, affects one in four people in the British Isles and the Isle of 3740 Man is no exception. The Report illustrates that nearly all of our 85,000 population during a lifetime will be affected directly or indirectly by an aspect of mental health, or a mental health issue. This clearly demonstrates the scale, and the public properly and fully addressing issues of mental health and mental health wellbeing within our community and what resources are required, and that this should be a community-wide concern – not just Mental Health Service, 3745 but a matter for Public Health. Mental health issues are becoming more recognised as genuine health concerns that require help, support, treatment – and treatment in many cases, just as ______634 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
with any other health issue. It also clearly demonstrates that we forever need to banish, as the Chairman has said and indeed the Health Minister, the stigma and judgemental factors that still surround mental health and for people who suffer from mental health problems. Just because 3750 we do not understand something or appreciate the effect, say, that stress can cause or other issues, does not mean that we should not care for somebody just in the same way as if someone had a physical illness – something which I clearly highlighted in my evidence for the Committee but which seems to be sadly not reflected in this Report or to the degree it ought to be. I note the Chairman, however, made commentary at the end with regard to stigma but I did not see it 3755 reflected to that magnitude in the Report. It does, however, require substantial work to address this situation – again, a whole community issue, especially for a tolerant, inclusive and caring modern society. Someone suffering from a mental health problem is just the same human being as we are and has exactly the same right to fair and proper treatment socially, mentally and physically as anyone else. We 3760 have our equality legislation, disability discrimination and human rights legislation, so let’s have mental health equality and mean it. Having said that, I need to make the point that the very fact of having this Report published and discussing it today will help towards this problem and I thank the Committee for that. The Report makes special reference to the incidents of suicide and for the period of 2008 to 3765 2018 it specifies that there may have been 100 suicide-related deaths. I take special interest in this and I have prepared an extensive paper to the Committee and taken some considerable time and effort in researching this matter, as the Committee is currently looking into the issues of suicide on the Isle of Man and has made a call for evidence. My research figures for the number of deaths due to suicide from this period are similar, the evidence for which is 3770 illustrated within my document which is furnished to the Committee. I note at paragraph 18 the Committee states:
We acknowledge that the Isle of Man’s small population means that statistical data is not always the most informative of evidence. However, we find the lack of positive change troubling. It would be rash to apportion responsibility for this without proper, rigorous investigation and, thus, we will undertake further inquiry into suicide.
I am particularly concerned with this statement at paragraph 18, especially the piece: ‘we find the lack of positive change …’. This is in danger of giving the impression that there is some proportional blame to be laid at the Mental Health Service. I have to make a particular point 3775 here that the whole issue of suicide on the Isle of Man cannot be laid at the doorstep of the Mental Health Service. Suicide is a whole community issue and a whole Government issue. It would be very wrong to lay this entire responsibility on to one section – it is clearly a cross- Governmental subject and indeed a cross-community matter. Around 50% of all cases of suicide in the Isle of Man are not known to the Mental Health 3780 Service. As I have indicated above I have written extensively on this subject and have provided a substantial paper on the whole topic of suicide in the Isle of Man based on my professional experience and that of my Mental Health Service colleagues. There is clear and unequivocal evidence that the question of suicide should be taken from a much broader perspective and treated as a cross-Government and whole community aspect. As a result, the issue of suicide 3785 and any new strategies relating to this should be co-ordinated from the Public Health Directorate in recognition that this matter is a cross-Government, community and wellbeing matter. The Mental Health Service should be a stakeholder in any such strategy, that is obvious, but they should not be the lead organisation in such a strategy. Suicide, as I say, is a whole cross- Government and community concern. 3790 When reading through this Report and taking note of the Committee’s observations, especially where they identify a lack in any particular service – specialist therapy services and special note in relation to Mental Health Services for younger people – it is quite obvious that
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the overriding feature here is, as the Chairman has pointed out, lack of resource and in particular staffing and specialist staffing. 3795 The Committee goes on to quite rightly identify the historical underfunding of the Mental Health Services and that it has played second best to the Island’s frontline physical general healthcare service – there is no doubt about that – and the general healthcare service which has and is still dominating the Department’s budget. I can testify that up to my time leaving the Mental Health Service, following nearly 20 years, that this service was certainly in dire need of 3800 increased budget. There is no doubt. I used the wording ‘shameful’ in my evidence to the Committee and I stand by that comment directed at that point in time. The conditions we had to work under and the lack of equipment and resources was truly breathtaking, even down to not having hoists on Care of the Elderly wards. I have to say I agree with the Committee’s observation on this and that we have a long way to go in bringing Mental Health Services up to 3805 the same standard as we see with our general healthcare – a point which the Department of Government acknowledges in their responses to this Report. I have extensively highlighted this historical underspend issue and lack of resources in my evidence to the Committee. I am pleased that the Committee and indeed the Department acknowledged this and I am further pleased to note that the Department in recent years has 3810 begun to address this, but there is far more needing to be done. Again, I am pleased to note that the Department does acknowledge this issue. It is no easy task with stretched budgets and trying to prioritise in just about every discipline within the DHSC’s remit. A further resource issue which has a very definite impact on the Mental Health Service is the spot placements that are required from time to time for specialist treatments that cannot be 3815 undertaken here in the Isle of Man. These are hugely expensive and will have significant impact on the MHS budget, and as these placements are unpredictable and one-offs they cannot be budgeted for which presents a further pressure on the MHS budget. At this point, I have to say that we have to acknowledge the amazing work and dedication of our Mental Health Service staff and that they often go to great personal expense in trying to 3820 deliver the care that they see patients and service users require, very often going above and beyond the call of duty. I think we have to fully recognise this point and give praise where praise is due. The Committee has acknowledged this at paragraph 36 but I restate this point with emphasis: without the dedication and commitment of our staff the service would fall down. I also have to pay tribute to the Police and social workers who are working under the same 3825 exacting circumstances in providing sterling care and assistance under urgent and first point of contact situations involving mental health crisis. It is an unenviable situation for the staff to be in and to be put under pressure to provide an ever-increasing range of services, but at the same time being under-resourced, in my view, in trying to do so. That needs to be acknowledged. We are now ourselves placing the Mental Health Service and the staff who provide those services to 3830 patients and others under extreme pressure by way of discussing this Report and some of the recommendations contained therein. We need to recognise this and support the Department, service and staff 100% in their endeavours to put in place their strategic plans, such as the Mental Health Services and Wellbeing Strategy and initiatives such as the step-care model within that strategy outlined in the Committee’s Report. 3835 Two thirds of the way through; three quarters possibly. Resource issues can be clearly evidenced in the critical observations of the Report in regard to waiting lists. There is plainly a resource issue impact on this particular area. We need to support the Health Minister and his senior colleagues in their endeavours to have the Mental Health Service resourced to the point where it should be. 3840 I would also like to draw the attention to the point the Committee made with regard to the fact that they see little new initiatives coming forward within that Report. Well, again, I would draw the Court’s attention to resourcing issues there. If you have not got the resources then you cannot bring forward new initiatives, which in themselves require further resourcing to that which is already resourced. I have to acknowledge though in commenting on resources that ______636 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
3845 great strides have been made in the Mental Health Service with regard to, for example, the opening of Manannan Court, the new Mental Health acute admission unit – and other capital expenditure into the service. So Government have to be commended here in recognising the importance of mental health. However, I can further report to the Court that in my many meetings with Mental Health Service staff and in conversations with them that there are new 3850 initiatives being organised, and some very successfully so, and this point has to be recognised and commended. I cite the rolling out of the new Mental Health First Aid programme as we have heard, and the initiative whereby two Mental Health Service professionals have been seconded to the Isle of Man Constabulary – again, as the Chairman has mentioned. Also a training programme which 3855 has been instituted for psychiatric nurses if psychological therapy is required, so they can assist – evidence that the MHS is trying to positively react to the waiting list issues and recruitment issues which are impacting on this specialist area. I will now turn my attention to the Police involvement with the MHS. It is very clear that on many occasions the Police are the first responders to situations where individuals are suffering 3860 from mental health symptoms to the point of a crisis situation. This is evidenced in the Committee’s Report in the way of information supplied by the Isle of Man Constabulary. It is also clearly evidenced in the Chief Constable’s Annual Report 2018. There is a large amount of police time taken up with attending such situations and attending A&E following that intervention. As most Members know, I have been making calls for years to have mental health specialists’ 3865 input in conjunction with the Police when they are dealing with matters that involve mental health concerns. I have often made calls for the archaic practice of someone having to be restrained, bound and placed in a police vehicle and taken to Noble’s Hospital, or indeed Manannan Court for assessment, to be curtailed. Being arrested for being ill. It is outrageous – or it was. I am very pleased to note that as I have already mentioned there are now two mental 3870 health professionals attached to the Isle of Man Constabulary and are seconded to Police HQ. This has been reported to me as a very successful initiative, one that is of invaluable assistance to the Police in ensuring that the right assistance is directed to any particular individual in distress, one which the Mental Health Service and the Police hope to be able to build upon, which we have to fully support. 3875 Of special note here is the correct operation of the Mental Health Act and ensuring that correct policies and procedures are followed in all circumstances, Eaghtyrane. The Committee notes that they are satisfied in this area – and that is good. We need to be especially vigilant in this area as we could find ourselves acting ultra vires – someone who has been detained under the Mental Health Act say, for example, that they actually have the relevant section applied to 3880 them negated, or be illegally detained. However, I do fully support the Committee’s recommendation on the drafting of legislation to start to enshrine the Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards – particularly pertinent, as we have heard from this session’s Question Time this morning. Supporting vulnerable people’s human rights and their rights as human beings is, and has to 3885 be, the cornerstone of our society. I fully support the move to strengthen this position. Such a move would also help stigma, and recognise better that all people have rights and that anyone in our society who is suffering from a mental health issue should be treated in the same way and have the same rights as anyone else. There should be no discrimination. I know there is great work being put towards that, but I still need to make the point that it may be hard to achieve in 3890 very exacting circumstances and I fully recognise that, but achieve it to high standards we must. Just because someone is suffering from a mental illness does not mean that they should be treated or considered any differently, or viewed as a lesser person. They are people, the same as us – no different. Again, Eaghtyrane, I just need to footnote that there are circumstances though where the 3895 police are confronted with a highly dangerous situation where they have no choice but to restrain a person and place them in the police van, as it were, for that person’s safety, for police ______637 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
safety and the safety of the public – and I acknowledge that there are those particular instances especially where illegal substance abuse is evident. They acknowledge the mental wellbeing of children and young people: this is clearly an issue 3900 and a multidisciplinary challenge across Government to ensure the right services at the right level are available at the critical times for this group of people; and being able to assess, diagnose and implement a care or support plan or treatment programme in a timely manner is critical and especially, as the Chairman has noted, for young people. The Committee is right to highlight this but also to note the positives that are taking place. The Department acknowledges 3905 this in their response. This is something that we are going to have to invest in over time – another resource and budgetary issue. So I do not envy the Health Minister in trying to go forward with this, but do acknowledge that he is going to try his best on that. (Interjection by Mr Ashford) Closing paragraphs, Eaghtyrane: commentary on the negatives such as aftercare and 3910 confidentiality in relation to relatives having information withheld and breaches of confidentiality; and care in the community. The Committee is right in highlighting this issue which requires addressing. We see again at paragraph 106 resource issues, and at paragraph 122 to support carers – but then again we are looking at resources issues and that resource has to come from somewhere. 3915 Continuity of care: we see this clearly outlined as a problem area in paragraph 64 – again possibly a resource issue. Primary areas of concern are illustrated in the Report, and the extensive waiting lists we have heard about. Indeed we have to be proactive in promoting good mental health and wellbeing as the Chairman has acknowledged. I know the Department recognises this and they have the 3920 eternal struggle of balancing their stretched budgets and trying to achieve these objectives. Eaghtyrane, we absolutely need to assess our Mental Health Service as to what resource level it should be operating at, what is required, and business plans, including additional staffing resources being worked up to at the minimum. The Report highlights that there are no vacancies within the Mental Health Service as such, but if the MHS is under the financial cosh, as it were, 3925 and the Department in the same situation, they are far less likely to produce a business case for increased staff or a programme of building a progressive Mental Health Service with advancement and enhancement to meet rising public need. Well, I say, let’s see what we really need and then build upon that as and when we can, going forward, and which will have to be highlighted as I say in the Programme for Government as a 3930 rising national priority. I acknowledge that you cannot do everything at once, but we need to start somewhere. Let’s see what we require and where we should be and start the process of moving forward to that place. Eaghtyrane, I must finish on a high note and state that the Mental Health Service and its resources – physical buildings and care areas, and the services, therapies and treatments 3935 offered – is a complete world away from when I first began my training in psychiatry many years ago and we must recognise the huge strides that have been made since my time working within the Department in the 1980s and 1990s. The Mental Health Service is completely unrecognisable now compared to those days – huge and continuing improvements which we must all support. Gura mie eu. 3940 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Peake.
Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. It is easy to agree with the recommendations from the Social Affairs Policy Review 3945 Committee. They are all sensible, and the amendment from the Department of Health and Social Care just clarifies reviewing its training procedures for those who require the understanding as part of their role.
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The Report includes a note of concerns from those and their families who are, and have been, involved in this section of the Department of Health and Social Care. I will not go into 3950 these now, but they are ably communicated within the Report. Much of the contact with this department is during challenging times for those involved and we all hope results are a good outcome. I, too, must thank the Chair and the Committee for their time and effort they have made to listen and understand to produce this Report. It would be easy to agree with the headline of a local newspaper, ‘More mental health 3955 money.’ There you go. Sorted! Just demand from Treasury extra, more money! But then what? In fact a number of families believe that the service is under-resourced and under-financed and the staff are stretched, but the Mental Health Service have no vacancies or calls for more resources. The Committee stated jobs can, however, only be created when there are sufficient resources to provide for it. It is our belief that the job creation process is based as much on 3960 availability of resources as on demand and potential positive impact. They do go on to say that, ‘We believe that more resources must be allocated to the Mental Health Services in the community.’ This is what I believe is the key to the situation and provides, I think, the direction for the solution. It is the community. We have always had a strong connection with the community and 3965 I, growing up in Laxey, had a strong connection with that in a time when there was plenty of tourists travelling from the Laxey Wheel down to the beach, and I can remember feeling safe in that village because you did feel as though you actually knew everybody. I believe a strong healthy community keeps people healthy. This is why I am happy to chair a local charity and put my time and effort into making that work. There is evidence from projects 3970 which clearly deliver significant increase in positive mental health and how the health of individuals can be improved. The NHS Endowment Fund provided funding for an Asset-Based Community Development (ABCD) project in Ayrshire and I did share this link with Members yesterday. ABCD is known to the Department of Health and Social Care and to many other Tynwald Members who have 3975 attended a number of presentations on this concept, and since 2014 the Social Marketing Gateway has followed and evaluated that ABCD project in Ayrshire. Part of their conclusion stated:
In addition to this increased social connectedness we have seen an increase in self-reported health and quality of life, and a significant increase in the mental health and wellbeing WEMWEBS score for the community of North Ayre.
Evidence of improved mental health and wellbeing. They also went on to say:
The significant increase in mental health and wellbeing in North Ayr is perhaps the most important finding of the evaluation. This has been a core goal of the project since the outset. Coupled with this finding from the household survey, the personal stories of residents who have benefited from being connected up with local activities illuminate ‘how’ the health of individuals is being improved, e.g. fewer visits to the GP [surgeries]; stopping prescription drugs; and being ‘signed off’ [from medical specialties].
These are tangible improvements all evidenced. Imagine a 20% reduction in GP 3980 appointments. This is what has been found in many studies; 20% of people who go to GP surgeries are there for non-health issues like personal relationship problems, housing and unemployment concerns or work-related issues. Mr President, the fact that the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee also concluded the importance of the community – paragraph 157:
We believe that the current waiting lists for the Mental Health Service can be and should be reduced. We believe that a good way to solve this problem would be to introduce more community care at Steps 1- 3. This will require more resources.
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3985 Another option is to develop a therapeutic community and Prof. Rex Haigh of the Berkshire Healthcare NHS who presented at the international conference at the Villa Marina last month aims to heal rather than manage people’s behaviours. This is a non-medical intervention and it would also radically reduce re-offending. Paragraph 158 of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee states:
We are concerned that not enough is being done to address errors in administration and signposting, which result in service users being forgotten or lost from the service.
3990 If a service meets the needs of its clients and heals people they do engage and they do heal. If people do not get what is needed they tend to leave, they do fall between the cracks. Paragraph 162:
We conclude that, as a small jurisdiction with strong community ties and a small body of staff, the Isle of Man presents an opportunity to excel in healthcare, including in our Mental Health Service.
Yes, I do agree we can, but instead of looking at mainstream medical model interventions and treating problems with the principles of treatment that have not changed in many years, we 3995 could look at models that work with the systems people live in, the context of their lives, their education and social mobility. I was in agreement with the Director of Mental Health recently when I heard her say, ‘Stop treating the problems and deal with the root cause.’ Going back to the Report and paragraph 172, the Committee says that:
We conclude there is a lack of care in the community and at the lower level, especially for young persons.
So instead of care in the community, let’s build a community. What would that look like and 4000 how do you make that work? Over the past eight months, the Department of Health and Social Care has started an Integrated Care Pilot in the west. The project team is working through the key stages of the project plan which they believe will lay the foundations for the Department of Health and Social Care to achieve its strategic objective of implementing integrated care across the Island. The target population for the pilot are people over the age of 18 registered with the 4005 Peel Medical Centre. This looks a good start. At the beginning to deliver the Health and Wellbeing Strategy which the current Chief Minister, then the Minister for Health, and his team – which I was proud to be one of – helped introduce to the public in January 2016. That is almost three years ago. The Integrated Care Pilot in the west has a small team of experienced and dedicated professionals. 4010 They have invested time and effort in understanding Peel’s social environment and will shortly begin co-designing operational processes and procedures with identified representatives from statutory and third sector organisations providing care and support in the west. The possible introduction of a local area co-ordinator role will further improve access to professional services for the people of the west. 4015 This is supported by my colleague from Douglas North, who is the Minister of Health and Social Care now. He was committed to a vision to, ‘become the best small island-based health and care system; to provide the right care, at the right time, in the right way, as close to home as possible.’ So it is important to improve the care in the community, to have a strong community building on what is strong and not wrong. 4020 The Social Marketing Gateway report for the NHS Endowment Fund in Ayrshire agreed on a number of conclusions, two of which stated:
Disadvantaged communities need external support to generate power. The ABCD approach is helpful in offering an empowering approach, and an explicit recognition of the political nature of democratic engagement would be further positive development within the ABCD method.
It then went on to say:
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Communities are weaker without State support. ABCD approaches should not be used as a means of [cost] cutting budgets in disadvantaged communities.
This is about working together on a way forward to deliver a sustainable future for the Isle of Man. This is not an either/or, nor a budget-cutting exercise. It is about listening to the 4025 community and giving them space to work with each other to create solutions by themselves. It is not to dictate and tell them what is wrong with them and to hold power over them. Mr President, the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Report can be the start of something to be proud of and build a strong community which looks out for itself where it can. It is important to understand that you do need both professional services and a strong community, 4030 otherwise it is not balanced. We need professional care services where appropriate and fully resourced, but we also need to respect the space between to allow the community to grow stronger from the bottom up. This is why it can be done for the people by the people. Over the Christmas period I was watching TV with my youngest son and we watched the film Crocodile Dundee. You may have seen it yourself. It is about a character who leaves Australia and 4035 goes to New York and his guide says everyone in New York uses a psychiatrist. Mick Dundee says, ‘Haven’t they got any mates?’ This may appear to be a simple observation but the answers you will seek are often in the community if you take the time and effort to build on them. Thank you, Mr President, for listening.
4040 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson.
Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. I, too, welcome the Report and its recommendations and, in the interest of not repeating what people said and being brief, there is just one area that I wanted to highlight which is the 4045 Report’s comments on pathways in education and the lack of autism pathways. Although this area was not the subject of any specific recommendations, I was encouraged to read in the Minister’s response that there is now underway a project around the development of an autism pathway and that the Department of Education, Sport and Culture will be working with the Department of Health and Social Care in this area. 4050 So I wondered whether, going forward, the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee would be monitoring the development and implementation of this pathway, as not only is it obviously welcome to ensure proper support for those, particularly young, people with a condition on the autism spectrum, it is also an important part of meeting our duties under the Equality Act. Hon. Members will be aware that a disability is defined under the Act as a physical or mental 4055 impairment which has a substantial and long-term adverse impact on a person’s ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities. Mental impairment can of course include a range of mental health conditions, but it can also include developmental conditions such as those on the autism spectrum. So the development of an autism pathway I hope will be a critical means of supporting better enablement of those with autism, helping them to thrive and be properly 4060 included in our society, and also to reduce the potential for unlawful discrimination. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Miss August-Hanson.
4065 Miss August-Hanson: Thank you, Mr President. I will make it brief and also I do not want to repeat what others have said, in the same sort of form as my colleague on Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson. I did write a speech but I am going to kind of go a little bit off piste here. Stigma: I think that there is still a level of stigma that surrounds mental health, but it seems 4070 to be lessening with time. And I know that because when I was 23 I was diagnosed with depression, some of which stemmed from my early childhood. I grew up in a very difficult
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household when I was young. I was doing my Master’s degree at the time when I was diagnosed. Yes, it was a very difficult time in my life. Understanding mental health and mental health issues is extraordinarily complicated, I would 4075 imagine for somebody who has not actually been through what it might feel like to be in that position. I myself personally remember knowing that I had to go to my lectures, knowing that I had to go to my seminars, I found it extraordinarily difficult to even want to get up off the couch. Moving my little finger I could feel every single nerve in my body at the time. I was very lucky because I could afford to go and get therapy, because I had three different 4080 jobs that I was working at the time. I could afford to go and get therapy for it – and it was expensive. This was £60 an hour or something. It was very expensive. I put myself through it nonetheless and I say that because therapy is not an easy thing to even decide to go and do. It is actually a very difficult decision to make. You do not feel competent or prepared enough to do it if you are in that way, depending on how bad or how severe whatever that condition might be. It 4085 is a very hard decision to take because you know that it is going to be a very difficult and very lengthy process to come out the other side. Yes, it is an expensive process now. I finished my Master’s degree anyway and I was quite proud of myself really for having finished it, nonetheless, and I came over to the Isle of Man with my then husband and I ended up having a bit of a relapse. I did not have my family around me at 4090 the time or anything like that so I really did struggle. I remember going to the doctors to go and see my GP to ask for mental health support, so to have a bout of talk therapy – that is what I was looking for, I was not looking for going onto any form of medication whatsoever – and I was told that the only viable option for me was to take tablets, because there would be no way that I could have talk therapy within the next two years. 4095 That is what they said to me when I moved over. That leaves very limited options available to you and taking tablets is not something that somebody that suffers from any condition like that, they do not want to do it. It is not something, ‘Oh, yeah, I want to take tablets’. It is something that you feel you do not have any choice because you want to function in the best possible way that you can without affecting 4100 other people. So I find it eminently sensible and also truly quite heartening, I found it very heartening to have read the Report to have some of this recognised. I know that there are others that I know of that struggle with mental health conditions in a variety of different forms that would feel much the same way. 4105 So that is me going off piste.
The President: Well, could you come back to the Report, very quickly, please?
Miss August-Hanson: I certainly shall, yes. 4110 There is an awful lot that I could say on this subject, like every one in four of the population on this Island ... But I will keep it brief. I have believed most of my life in mind over matter and that whatever you face in this life can be overcome, I suppose, by taming the mind monkey and feeding the cerebrum computer. But it has got me through an awful lot of trials of life and the view of people kind of changes; it is not 4115 just two categories of good and bad but differing levels of development, contrasting capability and capacity in one area of the brain or the other. On this Island we have trialled so many successful pilot projects. Some are practical, others technological, 3G, some social, like Esther Ransen’s Silver Line befriending service, because this Government here on Island is able to move with a level of fluidity towards better policy and 4120 processes in a unique space that shows others how best practice can be achieved. Not long ago John Bird, the Lord, journeyed here to give evidence to the Poverty Committee. He visited the Prison and he gave lectures to our inmates, talked at length about rehabilitation, mental health, education, social enterprise. Having visited a number of prisons in the UK, he ______642 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
presented seminars to governors at conferences on rehab and its links, connections to mental 4125 health and other matters. He has a pretty unique view of progress on those subject matters. So John was quite startled by what he saw. He said that we are miles ahead of the UK in our approach and in looking to prevent repeat offending, for example, by tackling the root cause of it, delivering on instilling real purpose by providing education, improving mental health provision. He was completely blown away by it. He said it was very progressive. So in some ways 4130 we are putting on our finest foot forward. In front of us today, I would just like to congratulate the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee on its work. I think it has done an absolutely fantastic job in recognising some of the issues that face us. There is one point that I would quite like to make and that is concerning the legislation on 4135 mental capacity. I have had a couple of conversations with the Health and Social Care Minister about this and I know that there is a serious level of passion in actually managing to move that forward and get it going. I think it is today actually, the committee stage of the Bill is in the House of Commons today and that concludes on 24th January. But that is in progress I suppose. The government there has already promised to bring forward its own amendments in the 4140 Commons that include the extension of the role of approved mental health capacity professionals, enacting a statutory definition of a ‘deprivation of liberty’, which is what my colleague on Legislative Council, Mr Cretney, mentioned earlier. Labour is likely to put forward further changes as well to the Bill. So it will be interesting to see how that progresses across and whether or not there is anything that we might be able to pick up from that to add into our own 4145 provision down the line. There are really so many people over here that are dedicated to creating an inclusive and caring society that our Equality Champion speaks of. It has progressed so much. Things have progressed an awful lot since I moved over here. We have a fantastic community, a wonderful society over here and it is a very warm place to live. 4150 If we do not strive to lead then the negative effects of mental health will likely lead us. So it is heartening to see all of that good work afoot, to recognise it and tackle it and to read this Report as well. So if we can do more I believe we should. Thank you, Mr President.
4155 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. Just a note for the Chair of the Committee. He may not be aware but my Department now employs four educational psychologists. We took an extra one on last year. Just for his advice. 4160 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President. It is obviously good to see the recommendations coming forward and the support that they 4165 are getting, and hopefully this will lead to the Island upping its game in mental health, which it clearly needs to do. A couple of things just leapt out at me as we discussed the Report. The average rate of suicide deaths is actually higher than the number of deaths that we were discussing earlier in terms of road safety. That is not to, in any sense, minimise the road safety issue but it has just contextualised what we are talking about here. We have got as many people 4170 taking their own lives as there are being killed on our roads. So this is a really serious issue. I was really encouraged by the recognition of the need from the Committee and from the Council of Ministers in response for the holistic approach but I just wanted to widen it a bit further, as Mr Peake has done. It is not just the services that need a holistic approach but we as an Island and as a parliament need a more holistic approach, and we must recognise that the
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4175 mental health issues are not the root cause of the symptoms of the underlying issues. We need to understand what is actually driving those outcomes that we are observing. So the key thing from my perspective is we must value and ensure we look after the things which prevent mental health issues arising and that is not just about the services, which absolutely have to be adequate, but there are many and varied root causes that are far too 4180 complex to cover now. But it encompasses how society treats its most vulnerable; how people in society interact with each other; how Government deals with its citizens; issues of family, community, engagement and poverty. We must ensure we do not lose sight of the root causes out there. As Mr Peake said earlier, we have historically had a very strong and mutually supportive community on the Island and I believe that by and large we still do. But it is being 4185 eroded over time as people live more individual lives, more centralised lives, with more dependence on technology and less on people. There are certain parts of the Island where that is less of an issue than it is in others but it is a warning that we all need to heed. We need to be intentional in building communities in which everyone can flourish and reach their potential. I was going to highlight the excellent work being championed by Mr Peake through the Quing 4190 charity and the Asset-Based Community Development approach, but he has already done that so there is no need to go down that path again. But just to reiterate, that is an approach that has got international provenance and we are looking forward to seeing that have an impact in the Isle of Man very, very shortly. It is about connecting and empowering communities and giving real influence to people over their day-to-day lives. And I am convinced actually, as Mr Peake is, 4195 that that will make a significant difference. The key thing is, it is doing things with and through people rather than to them and that for me is the real outworking of a holistic approach, in combination with the service enhancements which will come from the excellent work of the Committee. So I look forward to seeing a real step-change in the coming years. 4200 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President; and can I thank the Committee for 4205 their Report and, bar a slight amendment the Health and Social Care Minister is making, we are more than happy to support the Report. I doubt if there is anyone here today who does not have a member of their family, or extended family, or friend who has, or has had, a mental illness. And it can be argued that, yes, waiting times are too long and we must improve going forward. I quickly looked to see how the 4210 situation is in the adjacent isle and I am afraid to say it is just as bad: waiting lists of a year or a year and a half; in one Telegraph article someone waited 13 years to get treatment; massive shortages in training. I am not trying to make excuses for where we are but I would just like to point out that the changes that have happened to how we deal with the treatment of mental health on the Island, 4215 from where it was in late 2014, early 2015 and where it is now, are poles apart. There is still a massive journey to go on but I would just like to pay credit to the team of professionals who took forward the Island’s first ever Mental Health Strategy in 2015. It was a 10-year plan, Mr President, and Mr Peake alluded to it; Mr Harmer and myself, Mr Coleman and Mr Quirk worked exceptionally hard to take that through. I remember touring the old mental health 4220 facility for those people who needed a building with the staff to help them get their lives back. And I remember coming out nearly in tears, Mr President, as the facilities we provided at the time were so bad. Since then, and I think the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Henderson has pointed out, we have built Manannan Court – a state-of-the-art facility. We have improved significantly the work that Mental Health do with our Police Force and we 4225 are seeing a reduction in the numbers there, but we still have waiting times which I feel are unacceptable; and this Council of Ministers, this Government and, I am sure, this Tynwald fully ______644 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
support improvements that we can all do to help improve our service. We cannot rest on our laurels on that one but I just felt it important to say from where we were to where we are now, that there has been a significant improvement. 4230 I remember in 2014 we trained no mental health nurses. We now train the maximum we can. But it is a three-year degree so those first of the training nurses are coming on-stream now. Everyone would love to wave their wand and improve it overnight, instantly. I have described how we all have friends or family who have mental health issues and I am no different from any of you, it is in my family too. We all love those people and we want to 4235 improve it and we must improve it. But I think it really has to be stated that credit should be given. We appointed a new Head of Mental Health Services and she has worked wonders in what is really an incredibly short period of time and I think we should give credit there. And I think on behalf of this administration that all members of our mental health workforce, Police and voluntary organisations that help to look after the Manx public, they are doing a fantastic 4240 job and we need to give them the support and to enable them to continue with the significant improvements that are needed, but have also happened in the last number of years. Thank you.
A Member: Hear, hear. 4245 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mrs Corlett.
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. I will not repeat what has already been said although I do agree with so much of it. I fully 4250 support all of the recommendations and I would like to give heartfelt thanks to the Committee for recommendation 6 because it gives weight to the importance of this essential legislation. As the Chief Minister just said, we do not have to look very far to find people who have mental health problems – one in four people experience mental health problems, so that could be you or somebody around you. What we need to do is to create safe spaces for people to talk, 4255 without fear for jobs, friendships or reputation. We need to stop mental health being perceived as some sort of failure or weakness. It is not. We need to break the silence and eradicate the stigma that surrounds mental health and treat it equally alongside physical health. Thank you.
4260 Two Members: Hear, hear.
The President: I call on the mover to reply, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: Thank you very much, Mr President; and I thank all Members who have 4265 contributed. My response will be brief. Just to say I agree completely with the last speaker. I agree with the Chief Minister that we should give credit for the improvements that have taken place. I think we did give credit in the Report in relation to Manannan Court, etc. Mr Baker and Mr Peake both spoke – Mr Peake first of all in some detail – about alternative 4270 ways of delivering community care and he referred specifically to paragraphs 157, 158, 162, 172. So I will revisit what was said by Mr Peake, obviously, and I am sure others will as well to see if there are alternative ways of delivering services into the future. Clearly we want to do whatever is best. I thank Mr Perkins for seconding and for being a Committee member and putting up with the 4275 Chairman. (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) (Laughter) I thank Mr Ashford for his amendment which obviously we were quite content with; and Mr Watterson.
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Mr Henderson obviously speaks from a professional experience and spoke about the resource issue; and again he spoke about specifically where persons have to be helped in 4280 facilities off Island and how expensive that can be and how you cannot budget for that. He is entirely right because you do not know when these kinds of instances will come up, and they are very expensive. So he is completely correct with that. Mrs Poole-Wilson spoke about the autism pathway and the work that is going on in relation to that, which I am sure we all welcome as well. And, yes, the Committee will continue to 4285 monitor this, together with our other work. It is very important that you do not just have a Report in Tynwald and then put it on a shelf. It is very important and that is why I think one of the most important things is that there will be an annual report which will flow from the Department to Tynwald on this important issue. I would like to thank Miss August-Hanson for speaking about the fact that there are still 4290 stigmas around mental illness, but that she spoke frankly from her own personal reflections as a then user of therapy services and she also spoke of the capacity legislation in the UK. And she is entirely right, as was the Minister, that we need to make sure that whatever is happening to change the capacity legislation in the UK that we do not just go ahead and do ours without seeing what happens in the UK to perhaps improve the situation. I think it has been in since 4295 2005 in the UK – I am not exactly sure, but I think it is around then. Mr Cregeen: I thank him for pointing out there are now four educational psychologists, which is good; and I am sorry that we did not get that right. Mr Baker spoke about the issues and incidents of suicide on the Island. This is something I have been interested in for a very long time and in 1993 I raised the matter in this Court in 4300 relation to suicide, and we had a report done. And sadly, not only on the Isle of Man but elsewhere it appears that suicide rates are in an increasing situation which is very sad, in particular for those who are left behind, because there are always so many questions when people are in those positions: ‘What did I do? Did I do something wrong? Could I have done this? Could I have done that?’ So it is an important matter and whether we will be able to make any 4305 improvements to this situation, time will tell. But it is something we are now going into in some depth. I think that is about it, other than to thank … In the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office, from time to time, young people come and spend time, and they research and they assist Committees in terms of reports and we have got another good young person in there at the moment. So I 4310 would like to thank Benjamin Awkal for his support throughout this process because we are very fortunate, and the good thing is they then move on to good jobs and I think the experience which they are able to get in this place is very good. So thank you, Benjamin. I thank Hon. Members. And I beg to move.
4315 Mr Perkins and another Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Hon. Members, if the Court is content I propose to take the voting recommendations 1 to 4 together, then recommendation 5 and then recommendations 6 and 7 together; but only if the Court is content. (Members: Agreed) 4320 In that case I put recommendations 1, 2, 3 and 4. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 5: I put first the amendment by Mr Ashford. Those in favour of the amendment, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 5, as amended: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The 4325 ayes have it. Recommendations 6 and 7: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I put the Report, then, as amended. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. ______646 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
4330 That would be a good point to stop, Hon. Members. We shall adjourn for refreshment and return at five minutes to six.
The Court adjourned at 5.30 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.59 p.m.
7. Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald – Second Report 2018-19: Draft Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Care of Churches Measure (Isle of Man) received and recommendation approved
The Chair of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald (Mr Cannan) to move:
That the Second Report for the Session 2018-2019 – Draft Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Care of Churches Measure (Isle of Man) [PP No 2018/0176] be received and the following recommendation be approved:
That the draft Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Care of Churches Measure (Isle of Man) [PP 2018/0176A] in the form laid before Tynwald be presented to Her Majesty for Her Royal Assent, as required by Schedule 1 to the Church Legislation Procedure Act 1993.
The President: Item 7, Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald.
The Chair of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Mr President. 4335 Hon. Members, the members of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald are Mrs Beecroft, Mrs Maska and myself. We met on 10th December 2018 with members of the Legislative Committee of the Sodor and Man Diocesan Synod to consider the draft Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Care of Churches Measure (Isle of Man) before you. The objective of the draft Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Care of Churches Measure is to extend to the Isle of Man, with modifications, 4340 Parts 1 and 3 to 6 of the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Care of Churches Measure 2018. A full explanatory memorandum about the draft Measure can be found at Appendix 2 in the report that has been put before you. Your Committee has considered the draft Measure and recommend that it should be given Tynwald approval today and then presented to Her Majesty the Queen in the same manner as a 4345 Bill, and have the force and effect of an Act of Tynwald that requires Royal Assent. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
The President: Mrs Maska.
4350 Mrs Maska: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve my remarks.
The President: I put to the Court the motion set out at Item 7. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
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8. Select Committee on Public Service Media – Combined vote under Standing Order 3.19(1) – Amended motion carried
Extract from the December 2018 Votes and Proceedings)
Mrs Caine withdrew for this item with the leave of the President.
Motion made –
That the Interim and Second Reports of the Select Committee on Public Service Media 2017-18 and 2018-19 [PP No 2018/0107 (Volume 1 and Volume 2) and PP No 2018/0145] be received and that the following recommendations be approved:
Recommendation 1 That the definition of “public service broadcasting” in primary legislation should be redrafted to distinguish between mandatory and discretionary components. The mandatory components should be limited to impartial news and other distinctly Manx content. The other elements of the existing definition, such as entertainment which responds to the tastes, interests and concerns of the community, should be discretionary components.
Recommendation 2 That the Island’s public service media provider should “leapfrog” DAB and move straight from the existing distribution framework, which relies only on FM and AM, to a future framework in which FM sits alongside an Internet Protocol-based infrastructure.
Recommendation 3 That Tynwald calls on the Treasury as shareholder of Manx Radio to work towards a delivery model for public service media in which reliance on commercial advertising is progressively reduced and ultimately removed.
Recommendation 4 That legislation should be introduced to provide that a public service broadcaster in receipt of public funds for the purpose of meeting public service obligations should be obliged to budget for a surplus each year; and if such a broadcaster should find itself in the position of forecasting a loss in any particular year, then before the end of that year it should be obligatory for Tynwald to be asked, on behalf of the broadcaster, to approve a Supplementary Vote.
Recommendation 5 That the public body which owns Radio Manx Limited should play an active role in the strategic direction of the company including engagement with medium- and long-term planning, and recruitment of the directors of the company. If the Treasury does not have time to do this, ownership should be transferred to another body.
Recommendation 6 That legislation should be introduced to provide that no public funds may be committed to public service broadcasting, and no broadcasting licence or station format may be issued or amended, in the absence of agreement between the Treasury, the Communications Commission, and the owners and directors of the public service broadcaster.
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Recommendation 7 That Tynwald calls on the Office of Fair Trading to assess whether Manx Radio’s ability to supply a greater amount of advertising space is creating unfair competition in the radio advertising market.
Recommendation 8 That Manx Radio’s licence conditions should be altered to provide for a level playing field in terms of its ability to place advertising during times of peak listenership generated by taxpayer-funded programming.
Recommendation 9 That the Treasury should reassess the long-term cost and benefit of Broadcasting House as compared with alternative Government-owned or commercially rented premises.
Recommendation 10 That the Treasury should examine the apparent lack of value for money which Manx Radio is achieving with respect to FM broadcasting infrastructure.
Recommendation 11 That the Council of Ministers should pursue negotiations with the UK Government and the BBC aimed at securing one of the following outcomes:
(a) as a first preference, an increase in financial support for Radio Manx Limited sufficient to allow the station to provide high quality public service radio broadcasting (and other public service media provision) without the need for cross-subsidy from commercial income and without any increase in substantial financial support from the Isle of Man Government; or
(b) as a second preference, for the BBC to supply high quality locally produced news and other public service content for broadcast (and for distribution via other media) by Radio Manx Limited, on a scale and to the extent that Radio Manx Limited could thereby fulfil its public service remit without the need for cross-subsidy from commercial income and without significant financial support from the Isle of Man Government; or
(c) as a third preference, the establishment of a BBC radio station for the Isle of Man similar to those operating in Jersey and Guernsey, allowing the public service broadcasting obligations of Radio Manx Limited to be dismantled and the associated public financial support to be removed; or
(d) as a final fallback option, the release of Isle of Man residents from any obligation to pay the licence fee and at the same time the release of the BBC from any obligation to provide services to the Island on a licence fee basis. This option would keep some £4.8 million per year in the Island and would allow the Island to exercise for the first time true self-determination in relation to public service broadcasting. Dr Allinson
Amendment moved – To leave out all the words after “That” in the first line, and to add:
“Tynwald is of the opinion that the Council of Ministers should form a working party with Manx Radio, the Treasury, the Communications Commission and External Relations Division of the Cabinet Office to agree a basis for the management and funding of Manx Radio, with
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special reference to independent operational and editorial control; and that the Council of Ministers report on the outcome of the working party’s deliberations by October 2019.” Mr Cretney
Amendment moved – To leave out all the words after “That the Interim and Second Reports of the Select Committee on Public Service Media 2017-18 and 2018-19 be received and that”, and to add:
“Tynwald affirms its commitment to Independent Public Service Media based on the core values of Informing, Educating and Entertaining the public of the Isle of Man; calls on the Council of Ministers to pursue negotiations with the British Broadcasting Corporation aimed at securing improved outcomes for the Isle of Man; and calls on the Board of Radio Manx Limited to develop a sustainable operational and funding plan for Radio Manx Limited to be submitted to its Shareholder for presentation to Tynwald by October 2019.” Mr Baker
Amendment moved – To leave out all the words after “That” in the first line, and to add:
“the Council of Ministers should: 1) pursue negotiations with the BBC aimed at securing improved outcomes for the Isle of Man in all fields of broadcasting, and to report on this to Tynwald by May 2019; and 2) following such negotiations, develop a sustainable multi-year operational and funding plan for Radio Manx Limited, and report on this to Tynwald by October 2019; and subsequently, Tynwald should appoint a Select Committee to report on the means to develop effective ownership, regulatory and governance mechanisms for the Island’s public service broadcaster to ensure: accountability for any expenditure of public money to ensure value for money for the taxpayer; operational and editorial independence (free from actual or perceived political interference); clear articulation and effective regulation of public service broadcasting obligations to include, but not be limited to, balanced reporting and ensuring any commercial activities do not give rise to any actual or perceived conflicts of interest; and to report on this to Tynwald by June 2020.” Miss Bettison
Amendment moved – To leave out all the words after “be received and that” and to add:
“Tynwald affirms its commitment to Independent Public Service Media based on the core values of Informing, Educating and Entertaining the public of the Isle of Man and calls on the Council of Ministers: (1) to pursue negotiations with the BBC and the UK Government to obtain advice and funding, either full or partial, for an Isle of Man Public Service Media Centre, incorporating radio, TV, internet and all other cross media platforms and to report on this to Tynwald by May 2019; (2) following such negotiations to draw up an overall Isle of Man Public Service Media Strategy incorporating all cross media platforms, together with a sustainable operational and funding plan and to report on this to Tynwald by October 2019; and subsequently, Tynwald should appoint a Select Committee to report on the means to develop effective ownership, regulatory and governance mechanisms for the Island’s Public Service Media to ensure: accountability for any expenditure of public money to ensure value for money for the tax payer; operational and editorial independence; clear articulation and effective regulation of Public Service Media obligations to include, but not be limited to,
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balanced reporting and ensuring any commercial activities do not give rise to any conflicts of interest; and to report on this to Tynwald by June 2020.” Mrs Sharpe
Amendment moved – To leave out the words “the Communications Commission”. Mr Malarkey
[…]
Mr Cretney’s amendment lost.
Mr Baker’s amendment – Court divided.
In the Keys - Ayes 15, Noes 7 For: Dr Allinson, Mr Ashford, Mr Baker, Mr Boot, Mr Callister, Mrs Corlett, Mr Cregeen, Ms Edge, Mr Harmer, Mr Malarkey, Mr Moorhouse, Mr Perkins, Mr Quayle, Mr Skelly, Mr Thomas Against: Miss Bettison, Mr Cannan, Mr Hooper, Mr Peake, Mr Robertshaw, Mr Shimmins, Mr Speaker
In the Council – Ayes 3, Noes 5 For: Mr Cretney, Mr Henderson, Mrs Lord-Brennan Against: Miss August-Hanson, Mr Crookall, Mrs Hendy, Mrs Poole-Wilson, Mrs Sharpe
Amendment lost.
Mr Baker gave notice under Standing Order 3.19(1) that he intended to move his amendment for a combined vote at the next sitting.
4355 The President: I turn now to Item 8, Select Committee on Public Service Media. Hon. Members, the motion is set out at Item 8 and there is a combined vote to take place on Mr Baker’s amendment which the Court will vote on first. If it or any other amendment is agreed all remaining amendments fall, if any amendment, other than Mr Malarkey’s, is agreed then the recommendations in the Report fall. 4360 Mrs Sharpe: Mr President, may I ask a question? I have an amendment –
The President: Point of order: please rise.
4365 Mrs Sharpe: Point of order. I have an amendment to Mr Baker’s amendment. If that is seconded, would that go before Mr Baker’s amendment?
The President: I will just explain what is going to happen, Hon. Member – 4370 Mrs Sharpe: Sorry, I was confused.
The President: – if you just let me carry on.
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Now, I propose therefore to take the vote on Mr Baker’s amendment, to which there has 4375 been an amendment tabled by Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe; which, if it is seconded, will be voted on in a combined vote. Now, the amendment: there is normally no debate on a combined vote but under Standing Order 3.19(4) an amendment can be tabled to the motion in question and a debate on the amendment of Mrs Sharpe is allowed. 4380 So first of all, I will invite Mr Baker to formally move the combined vote.
Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President, I would like to formally move the combined vote on my amendment as you have just described.
4385 The President: Do we have a seconder? (Interjections) I now call Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe, to move her amendment.
Mrs Sharpe: I beg to move the amendment in my name. Is that correct? Oh, may I make a speech now? 4390 The President: You can make a case for doing so.
Mrs Sharpe: Okay, thank you, Mr President. Hon. Members, I would like to ask you to consider my amendment which, like Mr Baker’s, 4395 receives the Report, affirms the core values and calls on the Council of Ministers to negotiate with the BBC for a better outcome for the Isle of Man. What differs is that I have removed the end part of the amendment. In doing so, I am not seeking to avoid tackling the perennial questions which hover over Manx Radio regarding subvention and efficiency, rather I am seeking to examine these questions as part of a separate issue, that of an overall public service media 4400 strategy of which radio – Manx Radio – could form a part. The whole media landscape is changing, as I speak. FM radio will soon be a thing of the past, as will print newspapers. We have to ask ourselves in this era of fake news, how can we best ensure that impartial, trusted public service media is made available to the next generation in formats which will appeal to them? It is not fair, I would argue, to force Manx Radio to examine 4405 itself in isolation. The only sensible way forward is to look at how radio, audio-visual and internet content can be produced in the most cost-effective manner. Let us not think of Manx Radio per se but of Manx Media, of which Manx Radio forms a part. The Report may not have come up with a solution for the future of public service media but perhaps that is because this is such a broad and complex area. It did, however, raise burning 4410 questions: what do the people of the Isle of Man actually want from their public service media? What do they expect? As the Japanese are fond of saying: Shi kara mewosamasu to no seikatsu ni modorimasu – ‘wake from death and return to life’. Hon. Members, out of the ashes of the Report it is my intention to bring a new and separate motion shortly before Tynwald – in fact, as soon as possible – asking for a committee which will 4415 draw up an overall public service media strategy. I have sought over the past month to establish which body could currently take on the responsibility of drawing up such a strategy, but the answer so far is none. But a committee would allow us to engage with the public through consultation and focus groups to find out what the public actually wants. Media professionals would help us establish once and for all what the public service media landscape will look like in 4420 the Isle of Man; who will deliver it; where it will be delivered from; and how much it will cost. These are questions to which the Council of Ministers would need answers in order to negotiate with the BBC anyway, so the committee’s work would dovetail with the task potentially set before the Council of Ministers and thus save taxpayers’ money.
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Hon. Members, I urge you to consider the amendment in my name. It is in our power to 4425 create a strategy born out of the will of the people of the Isle of Man and shaped by professionals who can see the bigger picture. Thank you.
Amendment to Mr Baker’s amendment: To leave out the words ‘and calls on the Board of Radio Manx Limited to develop a sustainable operational and funding plan for Radio Manx Limited to be submitted to its Shareholder for presentation to Tynwald by October 2019.’
The President: Mr Robertshaw.
4430 Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. I am very happy to second the amendment in the name of the Member of Council. We are considering here – is it the 12th or the 13th report? (Mr Thomas: Fourteenth!) Fourteenth, thank you. And what does it boil down to effectively, in the form of Mr Baker’s amendment? Three parts. The first part is stating the obvious, which is motherhood and apple 4435 pie and we all agree with the principle about public service media. We all agree – I believe – that it is the right thing to do, to approach the BBC again, and I totally support that. But it is the third part that Mrs Sharpe’s amendment addresses which is removing this bit about:
… and calls on the Board [of Radio Manx Limited] to develop a sustainable operational and funding plan …
We have a duty and responsibility here to address what we politically believe is what we 4440 want for public service broadcasting. Now, up to the point of the last debate, Mr President, we had not really opened our minds in the way that Mrs Sharpe wanted us to, and I think it was early doors for us to embrace and grasp that, because what we were trying to do was find a way out of a very complex Select Committee Report which has not actually gone anywhere. I think Mrs Sharpe is looking in the right direction – I did not understand the Japanese – but she is 4445 looking absolutely in the right direction, and I think that we have to do three things. We have to take the first two parts of Mr Baker’s amendment which is to say, yes, public service broadcasting is very important to us all, number (1); (2) we do need to go forth and fight the good fight with the BBC; but (3) we have to decide what it is we want for the future of our public service broadcasting. And I think that voting for Mrs Sharpe’s amendment opens the door 4450 to that. It would ultimately change the sequence of activities in the sense that, yes, we support the importance of public service broadcasting; (2) we would have to then step back and decide this overarching strategic future for public service media broadcasting. And having decided that then we go to the BBC. It is self-evident to me and obviously the right thing to do. So I have great pleasure in supporting the amendment in Mrs Sharpe’s name. 4455 A Member: Hear, hear.
Mr Malarkey: Point of order, Mr President. Guidance: my understanding on this debate is that Mrs Sharpe has already put an 4460 amendment forward to the motion being debated today. So by my understanding of Standing Orders she cannot then put a second amendment to the same debate, Mr President. (Interjections)
The President: Let me make it quite clear, Hon. Members. The debate ended last month and 4465 we proceeded to the voting –
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Mr Malarkey: It is the same motion, Mr President.
The President: And we are voting on the motion to which there were a number of 4470 amendments and in the course of voting for the first amendment the Branches were in disagreement which then, as is his right, Mr Baker availed himself of the Standing Order to allow a combined vote the following month, which is what we are doing. There is no further debate because the debate has ended. What is happening now is that under Standing Order 3.19(4) any Member may move an amendment to what is the motion, 4475 which is Mr Baker’s amendment. Having moved, and it having been seconded, that amendment is now open for debate. We have had our big debate last month, we are now allowed to debate Mrs Sharpe’s amendment, and then we will vote on Mrs Sharpe’s amendment as a combined vote. The Standing Orders are quite clear. 4480 Now, to speak to the amendment, then. Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President; it feels like Groundhog Day. (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) Mrs Sharpe makes an eloquent verbal presentation but unfortunately what she describes 4485 bears absolutely no resemblance to what her motion actually says. (A Member: Absolutely.) Her motion says, as with the first and second parts of my motion, that Tynwald affirms its commitment to public service media based on the core values, etc., and needs to go and engage with the BBC. Now, those are the central tenets of my motion. And that is it – that is all she is saying. She refers to a hypothetical separate motion which may or may not get either raised or 4490 indeed supported at any point in the future. But let’s look at what we are actually saying if Mrs Sharpe’s scenario is supported by Mr Robertshaw. What we are actually talking about is yet another committee – public engagement to find out what the people of the Isle of Man want; engagement with media professionals – and apparently it is going to deal with it once and for all! (Laughter) Crikey – 4495 Mr Ashford: Like the last 13 reports!
Mr Baker: It is going to solve world peace and everything else. Now, Mr Robertshaw has spoken in support of that, and what we are taking out is any 4500 engagement with Manx Radio and the board. (Mr Robertshaw: No!) Yes! (Mr Robertshaw: No!) Yes, we are. Because what we are saying, Mr Robertshaw –
Mr Robertshaw: No, you are incorrect!
4505 Mr Baker: Sorry, if you would let me continue. What we are actually saying in my motion is that the board of Manx Radio needs to develop a sustainable operational funding plan to be submitted to its shareholder, i.e. the Treasury, for presentation to Tynwald. That is what they have got to do – they are the board of directors of Manx Radio. Manx Radio is a publicly owned company which we effectively own, and we are playing about 4510 with its future here. And actually what we are resolving under Mrs Sharpe’s motion is absolutely nothing. We are continuing with further uncertainty for Manx Radio, probably another year or so if we look at the length of Select Committees, with no guarantee of any positive outcome from it; and further uncertainty which will erode confidence of the management, of the staff, of suppliers, of advertisers and everybody attached to Manx Radio. 4515 We have already had, Hon. Members, as Mr President said, a detailed debate on this; but before that we had a Committee process which took several months. It came up with 11 recommendations to which we had five amendments and three and a half hours of debate – and, frankly, we are just opening all that up again and going absolutely nowhere with this. ______654 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
Mr Robertshaw said at the last Tynwald that he was embarrassed to be a Tynwald Member 4520 because of the way we conduct ourselves. Well, I put it to Mr Robertshaw that actually what we are doing here is doing exactly what he criticised this Hon. Court for doing last month. He cannot have his cake and eat it, unless it is Mr Cretney’s birthday cake. (Laughter)
A Member: And very nice it was, too! 4525 Mr Baker: Hon. Members, last month we had an amendment that was supported by the majority of people in this House. It was supported by the Keys – the directly elected Members of this Court – and it was supported by the majority of people here. I believe that my motion is the way to go forward and clearly the majority of people last 4530 month believed the same thing. I believe that we need to provide some certainty and some commitment to Manx Radio and my motion absolutely does that. So please, let’s just draw this to a conclusion. Let’s resist this amendment and let’s actually behave in a mature way and move on. Even if you are not prepared to support my amendment you have got three other chances in terms of the other amendments that are actually tabled. 4535 You could go for the motion that is actually laid on the table from the Select Committee, or you could choose to support nothing at all. I would suggest that any of those are better than what Mrs Sharpe is proposing. But, in closing, Hon. Members, let’s actually think about what the public is going to take from all this. We are, frankly, going nowhere and actually we are all looking aghast at what is going on 4540 in Westminster with the Brexit situation and we are actually doing our own version here of exactly the same thing! (Laughter) With that, Hon. Members, I will sit down. Please support my amendment, which is the substantive motion here, and let’s put this to bed once and for all and let Manx Radio get on with what they are good at and move forward. 4545 Thank you very much, Mr President.
Mr Shimmins: Hear, hear.
The President: Mr Malarkey. 4550 Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Baker has really said a lot of what I was going to say. This new amendment coming forward from Mrs Sharpe does nothing but dilute the motion that is before us today. I mean, what does it do? It puts the onus straight back on to the Council of Ministers to go and negotiate 4555 with the BBC. End of story. No obligation on Manx Radio. No obligation or anybody else. And no other Select Committees because all it says is that:
… Educating and Entertaining the public of the Isle of Man; calls on the Council of Ministers to pursue negotiations with the British Broadcasting Corporation aimed at securing improved outcomes for the Isle of Man;
Now, Mr Baker’s goes on to say:
… and calls on the Board of Radio Manx Limited to develop a sustainable operational and funding plan for Radio Manx …
This is what Mrs Sharpe wants to take out! No obligation on to Manx Radio to do anything. So carry on doing what you are doing; do not go and have a look at yourself and how you are being 4560 funded and what your operations are. It just pure and simply takes what really to me is a complete waste of a Select Committee’s time, and just turns round and says to the Council of Ministers, ‘Go and negotiate with the BBC’!
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It has diluted everything down to nothing. It puts no onus on anybody but the Council of Ministers. At least with the amendment we have, it is not a perfect one – I did not think was a 4565 perfect one last month when it came forward – but it has certainly got more meat on the bones than it would have if we were to go ahead with Mrs Sharpe’s amendment which takes all obligation from Manx Radio to do anything off the motion here today. Thank you, Mr President.
4570 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen.
Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. I think from last month’s debate there was no appetite for another Committee (A Member: Hear, hear.) so it seems strange that we are actually coming back here for a 4575 hypothetical committee which probably will not get support. So what we have actually done is taken something away and we probably will not support a committee next time. So you are left with very little. Mr President, there have been Committees looking at the BBC. There was a paper there saying that they should put at least a million pounds back into the Isle of Man. There is already 4580 ammunition there to go and get the BBC with money. Mr Baker’s amendment puts something on to Manx Radio; and quite frankly talking about a hypothetical committee which is going to sort everything out once and for all is very optimistic, and if it was to be here today I do not think you would allow discussion about something that might not happen. And I really do wonder what this describes. I thought today we would come 4585 in here and we would vote on this. Mr President, I would like to move Standing Order 3.16 that the vote now be put.
Several Members: Hear, hear.
4590 Mr Malarkey: I will second that, Mr President.
The President: Thank you. The mover has the right of reply. Mr Baker.
4595 Mr Baker: I think I have said everything (A Member: Hear, hear.) I need to say, Mr President. I would echo what Mr Cregeen has said, actually. Please do not support the amendment and support the motion.
The President: I put to the Court, first of all, the amendment in the name of Mrs Sharpe. 4600 Those in favour of the amendment, say aye; against, no. The noes have it. The noes have it. I put Mr Baker’s amendment as a substantive motion in its original form. Those in favour of Mr Baker’s amendment, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
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In Tynwald – Ayes 19, Noes 10
FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Miss August-Hanson Mr Ashford Miss Bettison Mr Baker Mr Cannan Mr Boot Mr Hooper Mr Callister Mr Peake Mrs Corlett Mrs Poole-Wilson Mr Cregeen Mr Robertshaw Mr Cretney Mrs Sharpe Mr Crookall Mr Shimmins Mr Harmer Mr Speaker Mr Henderson Mrs Lord-Brennan Mr Malarkey Mrs Maska Mr Moorhouse Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Skelly Mr Thomas
The President: With 19 votes for, and 10 against, Mr Baker’s amendment therefore carries. 4605 That then becomes the substantive motion. I put the motion, as amended by Mr Baker. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 17, Noes 4
FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Mr Cannan Mr Ashford Mr Peake Mr Baker Mr Robertshaw Miss Bettison Mr Shimmins Mr Boot Mr Callister Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Mr Moorhouse Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
The Speaker: Mr President, 17 votes for, 4 against, in the Keys.
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In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 1
FOR AGAINST Miss August-Hanson Mrs Sharpe Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Mr Henderson Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson
The President: And in the Council 7 votes for, and 1 against. The motion as amended therefore carries.
9. Isle of Man Steam Packet Group Limited – Appointment of three Non-Executive Directors – Motion carried
The Treasury Minister to move:
That Tynwald approves the Treasury’s appointment of Mr P Dearden, Captain S Pressly and Mr D Oldfield as Non-Executive Directors of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Group Limited for a period of up to five years. [MEMO]
The President: Hon. Members, we move on now to Item 9 on the Order Paper, Non- 4610 Executive Directors of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Group Limited. I call on the Treasury Minister to move.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, subsequent to the purchase of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company by the Isle of Man Government, Treasury sought to appoint 4615 three non-executive directors as a key element of the establishment of the governance and oversight of the operations of the company. To facilitate this, Treasury undertook an open recruitment process to seek applications from suitably experienced individuals to fill these roles. Seventy nine applications were received from high calibre individuals, which I am sure Hon. Members will appreciate presented a challenge 4620 when it came to shortlisting. Mr President, I want to assure Members that a fair and transparent process took place in selecting the shortlist and in conducting the first and second stage interviews, and I wish to thank Messrs Peake, Shimmins and Dr Allinson for assisting and providing transparency to this process. As a result of that process, I now recommend the following for appointment: Mr Philip 4625 Dearden, Captain Simon Pressly and Mr David Oldfield. Mr President, summary copies of the candidates’ career experience and achievements have been circulated, but for the record it should be noted that Captain Pressley and Mr David Oldfield bring with them extensive international shipping experience in a range of different scenarios. I am also pleased that Mr Dearden offered himself for reappointment having 4630 undertaken an interim role since last May and was deemed to have the appropriate financial skills and acumen to make an appropriate contribution to the board. If Tynwald approves these appointments today, I am sure you will want to join with me in wishing these appointees every success in helping guide the Steam Packet through the challenges it faces in the coming years. 4635 Mr President, I beg to move.
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The President: Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 4640 The President: I put the motion as set out at Item 9. Those in favour say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In Tynwald – Ayes 30, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson None Mr Ashford Miss August-Hanson Mr Baker Miss Bettison Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Mr Harmer Mr Henderson Mr Hooper Mrs Lord-Brennan Mr Malarkey Mrs Maska Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mrs Poole-Wilson Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mrs Sharpe Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
The President: Hon. Members, 30 votes for and none against. The motion therefore carries, it 4645 of course being a combined vote on this occasion.
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10. Data Protection Act 2018 – GDPR and LED Implementing Regulations (Amendment) Regulations 2018 approved
The Minister for Policy and Reform to move:
That the GDPR and LED Implementing Regulations (Amendment) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0309] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 10, Data Protection Act, Minister for Policy and Reform to move.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President. Today I am asking Members to approve the next stage in the development of our Data 4650 Protection legislation: amendments to the GDPR and LED Implementing Regulations agreed last year. When consultation on the GDPR and LED Implementing Regulations was conducted in 2018 a commitment was given to further revise the implementing regulations to address and update issues such as enforcement powers, further exemptions and of course we need to make minor 4655 technical amendments. These amending Regulations have been developed following public consultation and stakeholders including the Information Commissioner. The Information Commissioner supports these Regulations here today. Hon. Members, this is not the end of the journey for evolution of the new Data Protection 4660 statutory regime. Further work will be required and will be coming before this Court. Dialogue needs to continue with the Information Commissioner, the Department for Enterprise and businesses, particularly regarding the trust exemption. An update to the present legislation is intended. Updates to Data Protection Tribunal rules and the unsolicited Communications Regulations will be coming to this Hon. Court. It is also 4665 likely that Hon. Members will see a legislative instrument shortly to ensure that uninterrupted personal data flows to the United Kingdom following the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union and their absence of an adequacy decision. After this the priority will be the drafting and consultation on a new Information Commissioner Bill. This aims to establish the Information Commissioner as a new supervisory 4670 authority and to enshrine the principles of the GDPR so that can be brought forward for scrutiny and debate through the Branches. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper. 4675 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to thank the Minister for Policy and Reform for somewhat belatedly coming round to my point of view (Laughter) in respect of these enforcement powers, and on that basis I am happy to second these Regulations. (A Member: Hear, hear.) 4680 As Members will be aware, back in June I raised a number of reservations in respect of these enforcement provisions and I am quite glad to see that moves have been made to rectify some of them. While these Regulations do move us on, I still have some concerns that they do not address all the issues that were raised. Primarily, in respect of the issues that they are fixing, there is still 4685 an outstanding difficulty with one of the regulations about the appointment of independent experts to provide the data protection audits. My view is, and remains, that allowing an independent firm or appointed or approved individual to undertake the audit is a preferable route, for all the reasons I outlined six months ago.
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But unfortunately these Regulations retain the requirement for the Information 4690 Commissioner to be able to demonstrate he cannot undertake the work himself, and that, to me, seems to be an unnecessary restriction on this power. So it is a power which is designed to give flexibility, both to the Information Commissioner himself and to the many people and businesses who are subject to the Regulations. So I think there does need to be a bit of clarity from the Minister on why that restriction still exists. 4695 I have already asked this question, just for some clarity, and the answer that I got back was what I have come to think of as a Chris Thomas special. I am sure it answered somebody’s question but it definitely did not answer the one that I asked. So simply put, Minister, why is the default position that the Information Commissioner has to conduct the audit himself instead of the audits being conducted by a person approved by the Information Commissioner but chosen, 4700 appointed and, crucially, paid for by the subject of the audit? I have also asked the Minister a separate question in respect of the amendments to Schedule 9, which defines who a minor is for the purposes of education data. It defines a minor as someone who is under the age of 18 and the relevant part of this Schedule deals with access to education data and the application of GDPR exemptions. So my question to the Minister here is 4705 what about those individuals who are over the age of 18 who are unable to effectively manage their own affairs and have no court-appointed guardians? So the legislation seems to imply parental responsibility stops dead at the age of 18, irrespective of the ability of the young person concerned to consent themselves or whether or not they have the ability to manage their own affairs, unless of course they have a guardian appointed by the court. 4710 My last point here is actually about the nature of secondary legislation itself. So as with all secondary legislation, in order to understand these changes you have to get the original order, the original regulations and lay this document next to them; and when the next set of changes are made – because this is an iterative, evolving process – we have to take the original, these Regulations, the next set of regulations and so on and so on. It is not normally a problem when 4715 you have small sets of regulations but the original GDPR Implementing Regulations are 183 pages. They already are pretty opaque and pretty unintelligible, and before long and after a few sets of amendments they will be completely unusable. So can I ask the Minister if he would consent to publishing a single comprehensive set of regulations that includes all, and any, amendments that are being tabled; and that he does this 4720 every single time he produces an updated version of the document? I think if this really is going to be an iterative and evolving process this is an absolute necessity. So Mr President, in acknowledgement of the progress the Minister has made, I am happy to second these Regulations and I look forward to further continued evolution of our Data Protection regime. 4725 The President: Mover to reply. (Interjection and laughter)
The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. Indeed, getting old has been a theme of today, with birthdays and with discussion of the 4730 various aspects of getting old. Young people and older people have different perspectives on things and I think it is generally accepted that young people can benefit from older people and vice versa. I will leave it at that. (Laughter) But the Data Protection regime and the Information Commissioner regime and the Information Commissioner as an institution, is ageing, like Mr Hooper is and like I am, (Laughter) 4735 and different things are appropriate at different times. The second specific point that Mr Hooper kindly made is that when answering a question it is often useful to answer the question that should have been asked, rather than the one that has actually been asked. In America, they have a phrase called the ‘politician’s pivot’ and I often find it is more helpful, to help people properly understand, to explain the question that should have 4740 been asked rather than the question that has actually been asked. ______661 T136 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JANUARY 2019
So it is very clear (Laughter) in respect of the Information Commissioner and the investigative tools: at the moment these secondary Regulations have been designed by the Information Commissioner for the Information Commissioner to use. So as an older person, I take the view that if he is happy I am happy. But Mr Hooper knows better and I am sure the Information 4745 Commissioner will reflect on it and I will reflect on it. When we come back inside the primary legislation, we can actually reconsider how exactly we handle the office. I can read out the detailed response produced at vast cost, I am sure, by our learned Attorney to give us advice about exactly the intricacies of information notices and audit notices, but apparently it would not be interesting to you all, because it is wrong in any case. (Laughter) 4750 In terms of the educational aspect and when are children not children, that has been a theme as well of recent secondary legislation and I am sure Mr Hooper looks forward to working with me, as I look forward to working with him, to sort out once and for all, in the theme of the day, exactly when you reach majority in all sorts of legislation. Perhaps the Capacity Bill or perhaps the forthcoming Education Bill can be the place where we decide once and for all what goes on 4755 when you are 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 or 21. As Mr Hooper is always telling us, he is closer to that age than I am, so therefore I am sure he can do that better than I can and I am sure –
A Member: Getting further away.
4760 The Minister: – I look forward to taking advice from a young person in this respect. The other point is about the nature of the Regulations and how great it is that we can adapt so quickly and remarkably to what is going on around us in the world of Data Protection, and world of UK politics, and the world of EU politics, which is just what I have announced we are able to do with the way that we have done this legislation through secondary legislation. 4765 So there are two points to make. The first one is the inforights.im web page is full of easy-to- read young person’s descriptions of what the Regulations also mean and they are in the process of being updated. So I am sure that will be the source for easy-to-understand advice on what the legislation means. The second point is it is a very good suggestion, when we were taking through some of the 4770 complicated legislation earlier on, we were publishing two versions, one in changes and one without track changes, and it is a very good suggestion to do that and I will make sure that we will have a complete set of the Regulations with the changes that have been introduced along the way. So with that, Mr President, I beg to move. 4775 The President: Hon. Members, the motion is that set out at Item 10. Those in favour say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
11. Government Departments Act 1987 – Transfer of Functions (Safeguarding) Order 2018 approved
The Minister for Policy and Reform to move:
That the Transfer of Functions (Safeguarding) Order 2018 [SD No 2018/0322] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 11, Government Departments Act, Minister for Policy and Reform.
4780 The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Mr President, thank you.
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The renaming of the former Department of Education and Children as the Department of Education, Sport and Culture was approved during the passage of the Safeguarding Bill through the Branches. An amendment to the Bill for this purpose was not easily achievable at the time. Therefore there is a requirement to update the references to the former Department of 4785 Education and Children within the Safeguarding Act 2018, specifically sections 4(a) and 6(6)(a). During passage of the Bill through the Legislative Council it was agreed that this will be achieved via a Transfer of Functions Order once the Bill had received Royal Assent. An order for this purpose has subsequently been drafted in consultation with the Attorney General’s Chambers. If approved, the Order will come into effect on 1st March in line with the Act itself. 4790 Mr President, I beg to move.
The President: Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Mr President. 4795 The President: I put the motion as set out – Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: It is only a brief question, Mr President. 4800 Obviously, we are aware that the Minister is not going to be moving the next Item in respect of the Safeguarding Regulations. In the memo for that Item it states that:
It would not make sense to seek to commence the Act’s provisions without the supporting network of subordinate legislation.
My worry is that if he is not moving the Regulations today and yet the Appointed Day Order still sits live on the Tynwald Order Paper, the Act will come into force on 1st March, which only gives the Minister one month to bring back any corrected and fixed regulations, and we all know 4805 the Minister has a rather tenuous grasp of the concept of time and deadlines. I would hesitate to be in a position where we have an Act coming forward without the requisite supporting network of subordinate legislation. So my question to the Minister is what is his intention in respect of the Appointed Day Order?
4810 The President: Mr Thomas to reply.
The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. Again I thank the seconder, Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper, for these helpful comments – the seconder of the last Item – in terms of this motion today. 4815 The first point is that the Regulations, I hope, will be approved in February when a few points of policy have been more enshrined in regulation, and I appreciate the comments from one or two of the Members around this Court which have helped us to get to the stage where we have decided to make them perfect rather than just adequate and good. The second point is that if by chance the Regulations are not approved next month the 4820 Regulations are not prescribing anything because none of the provisions of the Regulations are actually mandatory. So we would be fine. But, in any case, we could, if necessary, revoke the Appointed Day Order before 1st March if things become difficult in any way and actually (The Speaker: Can you?) bring another thing.
4825 The Speaker: How do you revoke an Appointed Day Order?
The Minister: By making another one. (Interjection and laughter)
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The Minister: Finally, Mr President, based on the Attorney General’s advice, which I got – 4830 (Interjection and laughter) And finally, I would just like to remind the Hon. Member for Ramsey that he is a firm believer in Government prioritising what it does, prioritising its policies and prioritising its legislation and prioritising how it changes the public service and reforms itself, and that is exactly what a date in the Programme for Government means. So it is helpful for older people sometimes to engage 4835 with younger people to explain those things, but an earlier date means it is very important. It is not always 100% a deadline; it just means it is a very important priority. So I hope with that we have got a better understanding of language and language is what most things end up being about. Thank you very much, Mr President. 4840 The President: The motion is that the Transfer of Functions (Safeguarding) Order be approved. Those in favour say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Item 12, as the Minister has indicated –
4845 Mr Robertshaw: Mr President, a point of order. Could we have some guidance as early as possible about this issue about adjusted Appointed Day Orders?
The Minister: It is just revoked and re-made. 4850 Mr Robertshaw: I would appreciate at some stage some guidance on that. It seems quite an unusual step and I did not appreciate that it was possible. Is it or is it not possible? (Interjection)
The President: I call on the Attorney General. 4855 The Attorney General: Mr President, I am quite happy to issue a note to Members with the guidance on that point.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you very much. 4860 The Speaker: I look forward to that!
The President: Thank you, Mr Attorney.
12. Safeguarding Act 2018 – Safeguarding Board (Qualifications and Procedures) Regulations 2018 not moved
The Minister for Policy and Reform to move:
That the Safeguarding Board (Qualifications and Procedures) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0323] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 12 will not be moved at this sitting.
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13. Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 2001 – Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 2001 (Exceptions) Order 2018 approved
The Minister for Home Affairs to move:
That the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 2001 (Exceptions) Order 2018 [SD No 2018/0327] [MEMO] be approved.
4865 The President: Item 13, Minister for Home Affairs to move.
The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Malarkey): Mr President, this Order replaces the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 2001 (Exceptions) Order 2001, by consolidating and updating and changing the 2001 Order. 4870 The Order before the Court, in addition to consolidating and updating changes to the 2001 Order, offers additional safeguards to service users and customers in the terms of suitability of those wishing to work in the professions, offices, employment or work and occupation outlined in this Order, which includes the regulated sector for those wishing to work with vulnerable people. 4875 Previously, Government Departments, organisations and employers have followed the best practice and have vetted these individuals as per requirements and guidelines of the Disclosure and Barring Service. This Order will make current best practice a legal requirement. In doing so, it sets out and updates a list of expected professions, offices, employment, work and occupations which will offer a further layer of safeguard to the vulnerable groups and regulated 4880 sector. Mr President, I beg to move that the Rehabilitation of the Offenders Act 2001 (Exceptions) Order 2018 be approved.
The President: Dr Allinson. 4885 Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: Hon. Members, the motion is that set out at Item 13. Those in favour say aye; 4890 against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
14. Beneficial Ownership Act 2017 – Beneficial Ownership (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2018 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Beneficial Ownership (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0310] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 14, Beneficial Ownership Act, Minister for the Treasury to move.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The Isle of Man Financial Services Authority, which I will call the Authority from now on, is empowered by paragraph 8(6) of Schedule 1 to the 4895 Beneficial Ownership Act 2017 to make regulations for the imposition of civil penalties in relation to certain contraventions of that Act.
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The Beneficial Ownership (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2018 applies penalties in respect of two specific contraventions of the Act. The first relates to where a nominated officer fails to disclose beneficial ownership information if they have had a formal notice issued under the Act 4900 to do so. The second relates to where a person knowingly or recklessly furnishes the Authority or the Department for Enterprise with false or misleading information in a material particular. It is important to note that a person will not be subject to a civil penalty for a genuine or minor mistake, or where the person has themselves been unknowingly supplied with false information. 4905 Given the seriousness of these two contraventions, a penalty amount of £5,000 is considered to be effective, proportionate and dissuasive. In addition, the Regulations enable the Authority to mitigate a penalty or to provide that no penalty is payable in exceptional circumstances. The Authority carried out a six-week consultation on the draft regulations from September 2018. Four responses to the consultation were received. Respondents were generally supportive 4910 of civil penalties as an alternative to criminal sanctions in order to enforce certain provisions of the Act. Some respondents sought clarification on certain matters and the Authority addressed those queries in its consultation response published in November 2018. These Regulations are due to come into effect on 1st February 2019. Mr President, I beg to move that the Beneficial Ownership (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2018 4915 be approved.
The President: Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. 4920 I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: Hon. Members, the motion is that set out at Item 14. Those in favour say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
15-16. Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 – Employed Person’s Allowance (General) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018; Income Support (General) (Isle of Man) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018 – Not moved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
15. That the Employed Person’s Allowance (General) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0315] [MEMO] be approved. 16. That the Income Support (General) (Isle of Man) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018 [SD No 2018/0316] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: The Minister has indicated he will not be moving the next two Items, 15 4925 and 16. That being so, we have reached the conclusion of the Order Paper for this sitting. I just take the opportunity to remind Hon. Members about the National Holocaust Memorial Service which is to take place at St Mary’s Church, Douglas, at three o’clock on Sunday, 27th January. 4930 Hon. Members, Council will now withdraw and leave the House of Keys to transact such business as Mr Speaker may place before it.
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The Council withdrew.
House of Keys
The Speaker: Hon. Members, you will be greatly relieved to know that I have no extra business to put before you. The House therefore stands adjourned until 10 a.m. next Tuesday in our own Chamber. 4935 Thank you.
The House adjourned at 6.43 p.m.
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