Wednesday Volume 568 16 October 2013 No. 56

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 16 October 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 721 16 OCTOBER 2013 722

Secretary of State comment on information I have House of Commons received about a fixed committee that existed within the republican movement in 2000, which dealt with almost Wednesday 16 October 2013 100 sex abuse victims and in which some very prominent republicans were involved, and will she join me in calling for those people to come forward and help those The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock many innocent victims deal with the nightmare they are still dealing with 13 years on? PRAYERS Mrs Villiers: The hon. Gentleman raises some very grave matters, and I would certainly encourage anyone [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] who has been the victim of abuse to approach the police with that information, and anyone who has knowledge of such cases to do so too. It is obviously crucial that this scourge to society is eliminated and that the voluntary Oral Answers to Questions sector, the police and the Government give all the support possible to victims of abuse.

Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): The NORTHERN IRELAND Secretary of State rightly recognises the role of the voluntary sector in helping victims, but does she recognise The Secretary of State was asked— that the ludicrous restrictions in the Government’s lobbying Bill will prevent these very groups from carrying out Voluntary Sector important advocacy work on behalf of victims and others because the Government say that they will not be 1. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): What allowed to engage with politicians in the year up to a assessment her Department has made of the role of the general election? Will she ask her colleagues to reconsider voluntary sector in dealing with the legacy of the past. this aspect of the lobbying Bill? [900418] Mrs Villiers: I think I can provide the hon. Lady with The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa some reassurance. The lobbying Bill will continue to Villiers): I begin, Mr Speaker, by offering my apologies permit the voluntary sector to campaign on general for the absence of the Minister of State, Northern issues, but if a voluntary organisation seeks to campaign Ireland Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for for particular candidates in a general election, it will be South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan). He is recovering asked to account for its finances and spending and will from an operation and looks forward to returning to the be subject to limits. I think that that is a fair reform. House soon. The voluntary sector plays an important role in Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I urge the Secretary supporting those whose lives have been affected by the of State, in dealing with the legacy of the past, to ensure legacy of Northern Ireland’s past. I pay tribute to that the case of my young constituent, Lisa Dorrian, is organisations such as Wave and the Warrington Peace not forgotten. She was murdered and then disappeared Centre, which do such valuable work. by those with loyalist paramilitary connections eight years ago. Her body has never been recovered, her David Mowat: The Secretary of State will be aware family need closure and she certainly needs a Christian that nearly 20% of the victims of the troubles reside on burial. the UK mainland, whereas funding is restricted largely to the island of Ireland. For example, the Peace Centre, Mrs Villiers: The hon. Lady is right to raise one of based in Warrington, has no access either to EU PEACE the greatest tragedies of the troubles: people lost their III funding or UK funding. Are there any plans to lives, and some families still do not know what happened review the criteria by which this works? to their loved ones and still have no body to bury and no funeral to attend. It is a continuing tragedy, and the Mrs Villiers: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his Government are very supportive of all efforts to try to question. I very much enjoyed my visit to the Warrington locate them and get answers for victims, including her Peace Centre, which does a fantastic job. I have heard constituents. directly from it about its concerns regarding its inability to access the funding that supports victims in Northern National Crime Agency Ireland. I know that is a concern for it, but it is for the Northern Ireland Executive to decide whether they 2. Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): open up those funds to any organisations in Great What recent discussions she has had with the Justice Britain and outside Northern Ireland. However, I welcome Minister of the Northern Ireland Executive on the the work that the Warrington Peace Centre does for the remit of the National Crime Agency in Northern UK Government on the Home Office’s Prevent scheme Ireland. [900419] to counter radicalisation. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Villiers): My most recent discussion with the Justice The voluntary sector had an unfair burden in the past, Minister concerning the remit of the National Crime particularly in dealing with sex abuse victims. Will the Agency took place on 9 October. The NCA will provide 723 Oral Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 724 support and expertise to partners in Northern Ireland assist the fight against serious crime in Northern Ireland, in a number of areas. We are keen to extend its remit to and I hope that the current discussions result in an cover crime falling within devolved responsibilities, if agreement on these matters. agreement can be reached on this within the Northern Ireland Executive. Mr Dodds: Does the Secretary of State agree with the assessment of the Northern Ireland Justice Minister—who Paul Goggins: Does the Secretary of State agree with has been quite unequivocal in his denunciation of the my reading of yesterday’s debate in the Assembly that current situation—in which he said: there is a willingness to explore a way forward on this “We are effectively asking some law enforcement agencies to issue, and will she therefore facilitate urgent discussions operate with one arm tied behind their backs”? between Home Office Ministers, the Justice Minister and the political parties in Northern Ireland to ensure This is an outrageous situation that can be of benefit that the NCA, with proper accountability and in partnership only to drug smugglers, human traffickers, cyber-criminals, with the Police Service of Northern Ireland, can get on fuel launderers and all the rest. Apart from convening and do its job properly? talks, can the Secretary of State tell us what the Government will do to ensure that the citizens and taxpayers of Northern Ireland are not subject to this criminal empire Mrs Villiers: I can give the right hon. Gentleman that building? undertaking. He assesses the current situation correctly. There is a genuine willingness to reach a solution across the political parties in Northern Ireland. Further discussions Mrs Villiers: A huge amount of work has been done with the Justice Minister and Home Office Ministers to provide the reassurance that Northern Ireland political would be a good idea, and I will try to facilitate them as parties have asked for on consistency with the police soon as possible. and justice settlement. Productive work has also been done between the Home Office and the Justice Minister Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I thank the Secretary on transitional arrangements—for example, on the cases of State for acknowledging the progress on understandings that SOCA had taken on that can be continued by the about accountability and primacy that have affected NCA within the provisions for the current purposes. We this issue, but will she also address the concerns that we will continue to work hard to make the case for the have put to her directly about MI5 potentially using and NCA’s full operation in Northern Ireland as a potent abusing the future role of the NCA—as it abused the fighting force to bring to justice those responsible for role of the Serious Organised Crime Agency—in nefarious organised crime and other serious criminal activities. ways and ways that have affected the performance and perception of the PSNI? Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): I strongly support the Secretary of State’s efforts to persuade all those involved, Mrs Villiers: The Home Secretary has always been including in her discussions with the parties in Northern clear that she will make every effort to ensure that the Ireland, to ensure that the remit of the National Crime NCA’s role in Northern Ireland is completely consistent Agency is extended. Whatever the circumstances with the devolved settlement on policing and justice and surrounding the hesitancy about that from Belfast so the primacy of the Chief Constable. She has made a far, everybody will want to see every possible effort number of concessions along those lines to provide that made to tackle these issues—particularly after two assurance, and she and her colleagues at the Home executions attributed to dissident republicans last week Office are keen to continue the discussion on how to and 12 security threats recently—and she ought to provide the reassurance asked for by the Social Democratic make sure that happens. and Labour party and others in Northern Ireland. Mrs Villiers: I agree and will continue to do everything Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): May I welcome possible to make the case for the extension of the NCA’s the new shadow Secretary of State to his post and wish activities in Northern Ireland. It is also worth bearing it the outgoing shadow Secretary of State well in his new in mind that there were some ways in which the legislation post? I look forward to working with the hon. Member on the NCA would have strengthened accountability in for Bury South (Mr Lewis) in the same way as I did his Northern Ireland, because it would have extended the predecessor. remit of the police ombudsman to proceeds of crime Will the Secretary of State cut to the chase and tell us matters, which are not currently covered by the policing the estimated cost, in lost revenue to the Treasury and and justice settlement. In many ways, the legislation, human misery, of the decision by Sinn Fein and the which does not currently have agreement in Northern SDLP to block the full establishment of the National Ireland, would have enabled us to strengthen accountability Crime Agency in Northern Ireland? on police activities in Northern Ireland.

Mrs Villiers: The NCA’s current remit in Northern 13. [900431]Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): The Ireland will provide useful assistance on criminal matters Secretary of State cannot be happy with the current that fall within the responsibilities that have not been situation relating to asset recovery, which affects devolved, such as fuel smuggling, international smuggling England, Scotland and Wales as much as it affects of drugs and firearms. The NCA will also be able to Northern Ireland. The situation has been known about provide advice and assistance on matters within the for at least nine months and it has been raised in the devolved sphere, such as child protection. However, it is Committee, but it has still not been resolved. Will she important for Northern Ireland’s political parties to take personal ownership of convening a meeting with look carefully at this issue. I believe that extending the the political parties—not just with the Justice NCA’s remit to devolved matters would considerably Minister—to get the matter resolved? 725 Oral Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 726

Mrs Villiers: The right hon. Gentleman is right to say an important way forward in resolving the continuing that the proceeds of crime is one of the most serious tensions. I thank him for his reiteration of the bipartisan issues resulting from the gap left by the failure so far to approach taken by his predecessor, and I welcome him agree a legislative consent motion. I am keen to convene to his new post. as many meetings as possible to get the matter resolved, but the reality is that the devolution settlement gives the Mr Lewis: I thank the Secretary of State for her Executive a choice and, unless there is consensus across answer. It is incredibly important that she and her the political parties in Northern Ireland, that choice counterparts in the Irish Government—as well as the will be to reject the extension of the NCA’s remit. I will five Executive parties—remain totally engaged in every continue to make the case for that extension because I stage of the Haass process. Will she give the House an think that the NCA will be an asset to fighting crime in assurance that that is going to happen? Northern Ireland. Mrs Villiers: I can give the hon. Gentleman that Public Order assurance, and he will be delighted to hear that Dr Haass is expected to visit No. 10 tomorrow. I am also staying 3. Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con): What in close touch with Eamon Gilmore on these matters, discussions she has had with the Chief Constable of because working together with the Irish Government the Police Service of Northern Ireland about recent and across the community in Northern Ireland is an disturbances in Northern Ireland. [900420] important way of building consensus to resolve the problems that Dr Haass is looking at. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I meet the Chief Constable of the Police Service Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Ind): I am sure that the of Northern Ireland and the Justice Minister on a House will agree that we can only admire the way in regular basis. Discussions at those meetings cover a which the Police Service of Northern Ireland handled wide range of security-related matters, including the the crowd disturbances during the summer, but is the outbreaks of public disorder that occurred in Northern Secretary of State convinced that the PSNI would have Ireland during the summer. the resources to deal adequately with any armed disturbances that might occur, as they could do at any Lorraine Fullbrook: I am sure that the whole House moment? will join me in condemning the street violence that we saw in Belfast over the summer. Does the Secretary of Mrs Villiers: Yes, I believe the PSNI does have the State agree that such disgraceful behaviour damages the means and resources to deal with street violence in economy of Northern Ireland, and that it is essential Northern Ireland. We keep these matters under constant that the determinations of the Parades Commission review, but we supplemented PSNI funding by £200 million should be obeyed and the rule of law respected? in the last spending review and will supplement it by £31 million in the next spending review. The provision Mrs Villiers: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. of expensive mutual aid from GB police forces proved The scenes that we witnessed in Belfast over the summer to be extremely successful during this summer’s parading were disgraceful. It is utterly unacceptable for the police season. to be attacked as they were during the several days of sustained rioting following the 12 July parades, and Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): During such scenes do significant damage to the Northern discussions with the Chief Constable on matters relating Ireland economy because they deter inward investment. to civil disturbance and terrorist attack, was the demand for additional resources included to enable the Chief Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): I should like to Constable to employ officers on the ground to deal with begin by paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member other criminal activity, such as the despicable attack on for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) for his excellent work as an 81-year-old man in my constituency at the weekend shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I should in which he was tied up, beaten and terrorised in his also like to thank the right hon. Member for Belfast own home? North (Mr Dodds) for his kind remarks about my appointment. I say to the Secretary of State that we will Mrs Villiers: I am very concerned to hear about what continue to work in a bipartisan way whenever possible, happened to the hon. Gentleman’s constituent and I and that peace and stability for the people of Northern hope he will pass on my sympathies to him. Yes, I am Ireland must always take precedence over any party afraid that one consequence of street disorder and political differences. In the context of the recent disturbances extensive demonstrations night after night is that police and the need for peace and stability, the Haass talks are resources get tied up with those matters, which makes it crucial. Will she tell the House how many times she has more difficult to fight crime across Northern Ireland. met Ambassador Haass, and when their most recent That is why I urge those who are contemplating street meeting was? violence not to proceed with it. That is not the way to further their cause and they are likely to end up with a Mrs Villiers: I have met Ambassador Haass twice prison sentence if they continue on that course. and had a number of telephone conversations with him as well. My officials have met Dr Haass and his team on Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Is it not the a number of occasions. I have also had a series of case that more police officers would have been injured meetings with the political parties, business representatives and that it would have taken longer to quell the disorder and members of civil society to determine what they were it not for the effective deployment of water cannon? want from the Haass process. This Government are Will my right hon. Friend use her best endeavours to entirely engaged in the process because, like the hon. ensure that the lessons learned are understood by police Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis), I believe it represents forces here on the mainland? 727 Oral Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 728

Mrs Villiers: These are clearly operational matters for Karl Turner: With almost half of the population of the PSNI, but I agree that its job would have been made Northern Ireland in fuel poverty and 90,000 pensioners more difficult if it had not been able to access water suffering because of the granny tax, does the Secretary cannon. I am sure that the Home Secretary and her of State agree that Northern Ireland is in the clutch of a colleagues will be interested to learn from the experience cost-of-living crisis? of using this equipment. Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): The Secretary Mrs Villiers: We are concerned on both sides of the of State will be aware that the security situation in House about cost-of-living pressures. That is why the Northern Ireland has deteriorated not just in respect of Government have taken steps to cut income tax for civil disorder, but in respect of an increase in paramilitary more than 600,000 people in Northern Ireland, have activity both from dissident and republicans and from taken 75,000 people there out of income tax altogether, loyalists. Will the right hon. Lady ensure that everything have halved the income tax bills of those on the minimum she can do to ensure that those who are responsible for wage and are freezing fuel duty. Above all, our deficit those attacks, murders and attempted murders, including reduction strategy is keeping mortgage rates low, which in my own constituency, are brought to justice and that is crucial for the cost of living in Northern Ireland and the police have the resources to deal with them? elsewhere. Mrs Villiers: The Government and I are fully supportive Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): The of all the efforts being made by the PSNI and its Secretary of State will be aware that the Republic of partners to bring to justice those responsible for dissident Ireland has announced the scrapping of its equivalent republican violence, those responsible for criminality of air passenger duty. What assessment has the Secretary and those responsible for the disgraceful punishment of State made on the impact that could have on airports shootings that have taken place. I am particularly concerned in Northern Ireland? Will she reconsider the Northern about the situation in the hon. Lady’s constituency and Ireland Affairs Committee’s proposals that attention the continuing protests and intimidation to which she should be given to removing the tax on flights to and and her staff are being subjected. The threats that she, from Northern Ireland? along with other elected representatives in Northern Ireland, has received over recent months are utterly Mrs Villiers: I know that the Northern Ireland Affairs disgraceful, and I urge anyone with knowledge about Committee has a strong view on air passenger duty. I who is responsible for this kind of criminal behaviour understand the concerns about competitiveness and the to bring it to the attention of the PSNI as soon as recent announcements by the Irish Government. The possible. Government have not had a request from the Northern Economic Policy Ireland Executive to devolve short-haul APD. We would consider such a request seriously, but it would be an 4. Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): expensive change to make. What steps the Government are taking to strengthen the Northern Ireland economy. [900421] Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The 5. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): Secretary of State will join me in welcoming the visit to What her policy is on the Northern Ireland economy; the House today by the Northern Ireland Assembly and and if she will make a statement. [900422] Business Trust, an effective organisation that brings political and business leaders together. How does it The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa strengthen the Northern Ireland economy to centralise Villiers): The Government are working closely with the jobs in the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency in Executive to promote growth and rebalance the Northern Swansea, resulting in the loss of hundreds of jobs and Ireland economy. Last week, we published an update on millions of pounds from our local economy? progress made on the economic package signed in June, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister attended a Mrs Villiers: The issue is a difficult one. The Government very successful investment conference at Titanic Belfast. must look carefully at proposed efficiency measures. I Andrea Leadsom: Does my right hon. Friend agree know that the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, that access to finance is critical for small businesses in my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby Northern Ireland, and does she welcome as I do the (Mr Goodwill) is looking with care at the proposal, and Government’s decision to bring forward an independent I have had a lengthy conversation with him, as I did payments regulator to promote more competition in with his predecessor. He is very much aware of the banking and better access to finance? issues, and I have made it plain that it is important to consider the onward economic impacts in Coleraine of Mrs Villiers: I am happy to give that assurance. I, too, the decision that he will be making in due course. welcome the setting up of an independent payments regulator, and I pay tribute to the work done by my Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Now that Northern hon. Friend and the Treasury Select Committee in Ireland has the second highest per capita inward investment bringing that about. It is crucial to the success of of any region in the UK after London, what can the banking in Northern Ireland that we encourage new Minister do to ensure that that investment is spread entrants into that market. This regulator will help to across the whole of Northern Ireland and not concentrated achieve that. [Interruption.] in Greater Belfast? Mr Speaker: Order. These exchanges are of very great importance to people in Northern Ireland and beyond, Mrs Villiers: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid and I feel strongly that these questions and the Secretary point. The investment conference that the Prime Minister of State’s answers must be heard. attended last week was incredibly successful. There was 729 Oral Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 730 huge interest from current investors in expanding, and Mrs Villiers: The start-up loan scheme has been one from new investors in setting up business, in Northern of the most successful of the schemes that the Government Ireland, which is a great place to do business. Several have introduced to support businesses and help them to investors at the Belfast conference were interested in the gain access to finance. It was extended to Northern whole of Northern Ireland, and we will do our best to Ireland within weeks of the signing, in Downing street, ensure that the benefits are spread throughout Northern of the commitment to do so. I am sure that it is Ireland, as we did in bringing the G8 to County Fermanagh. providing great benefit for young entrepreneurs, and is helping us with our efforts to rebalance the Northern Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): May I say to Ireland economy. the Secretary of State, as one survivor to another, that I agree with her analysis of last week’s investment conference, David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): As the Secretary which provided an excellent opportunity to showcase of State will know, at the Grand Committee meeting I Northern Ireland’s potential? But all is not sunny optimism asked how the Government could make it easier for in the land. What steps does she plan to take to support young people to gain access to apprenticeships and the small businesses in Northern Ireland that are struggling training centres without needing sponsorship from various to get credit? companies. She agreed to refer my question to the Minister. Has there been any progress since then? Mrs Villiers: We have introduced an allowance for Mrs Villiers: I have no further developments to report, employer’s national insurance, which will make it cheaper but these matters are of course very important. I am to employ people and create jobs; we are keeping interest sure that enhancing skills in Northern Ireland is a high rates low through our deficit reduction programme; we priority for the Northern Ireland Executive, as it is, of are freezing fuel duty; and we are cutting corporation course, for the United Kingdom Government in areas tax to boost business. We are determined to make that are not devolved. Northern Ireland a fabulous place to do business in, and to help small businesses. PRIME MINISTER Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): I welcome our new shadow Secretary of State and pay The Prime Minister was asked— tribute to his predecessor for the great work he did. Does the Secretary of State agree, however, that an Engagements economic boost would do a lot to defuse the current Q1. [900498] Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): community tension? Will she commit herself to helping If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday us to achieve some of the measures, such as the maintenance 16 October. of low VAT and others that have been mentioned, announced in yesterday’s Irish budget? That would be a The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure major achievement. the whole House will wish to join me in congratulating the England football team on their excellent win last Mrs Villiers: I am afraid that EU rules mean that we night, which has enabled them to qualify for next year’s cannot have a different level of VAT in one part of the World cup competition. I send my commiserations to country, but we will certainly look at the measures the other home nation teams, including Scotland, who introduced by the Irish to see what lessons can be delivered an impressive win over Croatia last night, but learned. We are also determined to help rebalance and I am sure that everyone in the United Kingdom will boost the Northern Ireland economy, which is why we now swing behind the English team—you can always signed the economic pact in June. Last week I announced dream and hope, Mr. Speaker. an update, which demonstrated real progress on start-up This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues loans, research and development, support for Bombardier, and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I and a ministerial taskforce on banking to ensure that shall have further such meetings later today. businesses get the access to finance they need. Paul Blomfield: May I associate myself with what Northern Ireland Grand Committee the Prime Minister said about the English football team? I only hope that Sheffield United will follow their 6. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): What assessment lead. she has made of the recent meeting of the Northern We will all have heard from constituents who, while Ireland Grand Committee. [900424] struggling to make ends meet, have taken out payday loans and then found themselves trapped in spiralling The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa debt owing to excessive charges and escalating interest. Villiers): The Northern Ireland Grand Committee is a Yesterday all the major national consumer and debt valuable forum for the debating of Northern Ireland advice organisations came together in Parliament to issues. The recent meeting in Belfast on 9 September launch a charter calling for the tough regulation of provided an opportunity to reaffirm the importance payday lenders, which has been backed by Members that the House of Commons ascribes to Northern Ireland representing every party in the House. Will the Prime matters. Minister add his support to it? Neil Carmichael: Does the Secretary of State agree The Prime Minister: Let me first commend the hon. that the Government were absolutely right to extend the Gentleman for the work that he does in relation to start-up loan scheme to Northern Ireland, and that the payday loans and the need for tough regulation. I think scheme will provide a huge number of opportunities for it absolutely right for us to look at the issue, and to young entrepreneurs by giving them access to £117 million? ensure that we get things right. 731 Oral Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 732

Earlier this month, the Government published two Edward Miliband: There are almost 1 million young reports which showed that the problems in the payday people still out of work and record numbers of people market persist, and that consumers continue to suffer. working part-time who cannot find full-time work. As a result, the Financial Conduct Authority has made That is no cause for complacency from this Government, a series of proposals, all of them worth while. They and I think the British people will be very surprised to include proposals to use powers to ban loans and hear the Prime Minister telling them that their living advertisements of which it does not approve, to ensure standards are rising when they know the truth: under that lenders cannot roll over loans more than twice, and him, living standards are falling month upon month to limit the number of attempts that a payday lender upon month. There is a cost of living crisis, and one of can make to take money out of accounts. the reasons is rising energy bills, which one leading We are still considering the issue of a cap, and I do charity reports today is one of the things driving people not think we should rule it out, although we must bear to food banks. In the light of that, does the Prime in mind what has been established in other countries, Minister think that the energy company SSE’s decision and by our own research, about whether a cap would to raise its customers’ energy bills by 8.2% is justified? prove effective. It is absolutely right for us to regulate this area properly. The Prime Minister: Let me come back to the right hon. Gentleman on the youth unemployment figures which he mentions, because the youth claimant count—the Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): May we have a number of young people claiming unemployment full and transparent assessment of whether The Guardian’s benefit—is down 79,000 since the election. There is involvement in the Snowden affair has damaged Britain’s absolutely no complacency—we need more young people national security? Does my right hon. Friend agree that in work, we need more jobs—but one of the remarkable it is bizarre that from some the hacking of a celebrity things about today’s figures is that they show for the phone demands a prosecution, whereas leaving the British first time that there are 1 million more people in work people and their security personnel more vulnerable is than there were when this Government came into office. seen as opening a debate? Let me remind the right hon. Gentleman of something he predicted. In October 2010 he said this—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister: I commend my right hon. Friend I think people will want to listen to this. He said the for raising the issue. I think the plain fact is that what Government clearly has happened has damaged national security, and in “have a programme which will lead to the disappearance of a many ways The Guardian itself admitted that when, million…jobs.” having been asked politely by my national security That was his prediction. He was 100% wrong, and he adviser and Cabinet Secretary to destroy the files that it should apologise to this House of Commons. Of course had, it went ahead and destroyed those files. It knows we all want to see energy prices come down. That is why that what it is dealing with is dangerous for national we are putting people on the lowest tariff, but the one security. I think that it is up to Select Committees in the thing that will not work is a price con, and that is what House to examine the issue if they wish to do so, and to he is recommending. make further recommendations. Edward Miliband: The person who should be apologising Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the is this Prime Minister, for the cost of living crisis facing Prime Minister in sending warmest congratulations to millions of families. Let us talk about SSE. It says on its the England team on its victory last night and on website—and I quote—that it has just one strategic getting to the World cup finals next summer, and I add priority and it calls it its “dividend obsession”: it is not my commiserations to Wales, Scotland and Northern to get bills down; it is not to be on the side of the Ireland. Today’s economic figures show a welcome fall consumer. So it is make-up-your-mind time for the in unemployment. They also show that prices have risen Prime Minister. Whose side is he on: the energy companies’ faster than wages, and that is 39 out of 40 months that or the consumers’? living standards have fallen since he became Prime Minister. Will he confirm what everybody knows: that The Prime Minister: We are on the side of hard-working there is a cost of living crisis in this country? families, which is why we have cut income tax for 25 million people, why we have frozen the council tax, The Prime Minister: First of all, let me welcome the why we have lifted 2 million people out of tax, and let right hon. Gentleman’s welcome for the unemployment me make this simple point about living standards: if we figures. Not everyone in the House will have been able want to help with living standards, the best way to do to study them, but it is good news. The number in work that is to cut people’s taxes. Now, we can only cut taxes is up 155,000, unemployment is down 18,000, women’s if we cut spending. The right hon. Gentleman has unemployment is down, youth unemployment is down, opposed every single spending cut that we have proposed; long-term unemployment is down and vacancies are up, even now he still wants to spend more money. That is and crucially the fall in the claimant count is 41,000 this the truth: more spending, more borrowing, more debt. month alone. That is the fastest fall in the number of It is the same old Labour. people claiming unemployment benefit since February 1997. So these are welcome figures. Of course we all Edward Miliband: Is it not striking that the one thing want to see living standards improve, and last year the Prime Minister does not want to talk about is disposable income increased, but the way to deliver on energy prices? He cannot talk about that because he has living standards is to grow the economy, keep producing no answer. Let us have an answer on the energy price the jobs and cut people’s taxes. freeze. Can he confirm that in opposing the freeze he 733 Oral Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 734 has on his side the big six energy companies, and in The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman supporting a freeze we have on our side consumer wants to debate the last Labour Government, I say, bodies such as Which? and small energy producers such “Bring it on.” They crashed the economy; they bust the as Co-op Energy and the vast majority of the British banks; they doubled the national debt; and they bankrupted people? this country. I have to say to him that today we can see that 1 million more people are in work in our country, The Prime Minister: If an energy price freeze was and that is 1 million reasons to stick to the economic such a great idea, why did the right hon. Gentleman not plan that we have, it is 1 million reasons to keep on introduce it when he stood at this Dispatch Box as getting the deficit down, delivering on education and Energy Secretary? The fact is that it is not a price freeze; delivering on welfare, and it is 1 million reasons to say, it is a price con. He is not in control of worldwide gas “More borrowing, more spending, more debt—that is prices, which is why he had to admit the next day that he the same old Labour.” Never again. could not keep his promise—that is the truth. The reason why he does not want to talk about the economy Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): Last is because he has not got a credible economic policy. He night, Mr Speaker, you presented an Attitude magazine cannot explain why the deficit is falling, the economy is award to the nieces of Alan Turing, the gay world war growing and unemployment is coming down. I have to two code-breaker who helped this country to win world say to him that given that his problem is having no war two. The Government indicated in July that they credible economic policy, he does not help himself by would move to give a pardon to Mr Turing for his having a totally incredible energy policy. conviction for gross indecency which led him to take his own life. Can my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister Edward Miliband: I thought that the right hon. tell us when that pardon will be granted? Gentleman might get to the record of the last Government, because his Government have found a new tactic; they The Prime Minister: Let me pay tribute to what Alan have been floundering all over the place and they blame Turing and all the people who worked at Bletchley Park the last Government and green levies. Let us talk about did for our country—it was absolutely remarkable and green levies, because who said, “Vote blue, go green”? I it was crucial in winning the second world war. Clearly think it was this Prime Minister. Who said, as Leader of what happened to him was completely wrong and now, the Opposition: looking back, everyone can see that—everybody knows that. I am very happy to look at the specific issue of the “I think green taxes as a whole need to go up”? pardon and respond to the hon. Gentleman, but above It was him. He has been talking about my record as all what we should do is praise Alan Turing and the Energy Secretary, so I looked back at the record on the brave people who worked for him. Energy Bill of 2010. Did he oppose that Bill? No, he supported it. You could say, Mr Speaker, that it was two Q2. [900499] Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Today is parties working together in the national interest. Does world food day. The Prime Minister embraced the IF he not feel faintly embarrassed that in five short years campaign, including the need to cut pseudo-green he has gone from hug a husky to gas a badger? biofuel mandates, which in effect hijack food productivity for the world’s poor for fuel consumption The Prime Minister: Oh dear! The only embarrassing by the rich. Today the EU presidency is proposing a thing is this tortured performance. 7% cap, as opposed to the 5% cap advocated by the The right hon. Gentleman wants to talk about the European Commission. That difference could feed record of the last Labour Government. Let me remind 68 million people a year. What efforts is the Prime him, on the cost of living, that they doubled the council Minister making actively to avert EU Governments tax; they doubled the gas bills; they put up electricity compromising the fight against world hunger? bills by half; they put up petrol tax 12 times; they increased the basic state pension by a measly 75p; and The Prime Minister: First, let me pay tribute to the then when it came to the low paid, they got rid of the hon. Gentleman for the campaign that he has waged on 10p income tax band altogether. Labour has absolutely this issue. We are absolutely clear that the production of no economic policy, and that is why the former Chancellor, biofuels should not undermine food security, and on the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West some occasions in some countries it clearly does. A 5% (Mr Darling), said on 9 September: cap on biofuels made from crops was one of the key asks of the IF campaign. I support the IF campaign “I’m waiting to hear what we’ve got to say on the economy”. and pay tribute to what it did. That is exactly what we We have all been waiting, but I think we should give up are pushing for in current EU negotiations, and I hope waiting because they are a hopeless Opposition. we will be successful.

Edward Miliband: I will tell the right hon. Gentleman Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): The what happened, because he talks about the last Labour use of contaminated blood products by the NHS in the Government: living standards went up by £3,700 over 1970s and 1980s exposed 5,000 people to hepatitis C the 13 years of the last Labour Government; living and some 1,2000 included in that number to HIV as standards are down by £1,500 under him. This is the well. Of those 1,200, only just over 300 are still alive. reality of Britain under this Prime Minister: food bank There has never been an apology or a public inquiry. use on the rise; energy bills soaring; even if you are in Will my right hon. Friend, who has an outstanding work, you are worse off; and a Prime Minister in total record in seeking to close historic wrongs, meet me and denial about the cost of living crisis facing millions of one of my affected constituents, look again at the families. possibility of public acknowledgement of perhaps this 735 Oral Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 736 last historic health scandal, and ensure that those who The Prime Minister: I share my hon. Friend’s concern. survive now are treated equally and fairly by a state that One of the people involved is a constituent of mine. We wronged them in the first place? need to follow this case extremely closely, and that is exactly what the Foreign Office is doing. A Foreign The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend for Office Minister had a meeting, which I am sure my hon. raising this issue in the way that he has. I, too, have Friend attended, and we are daily seeking updates from constituents who have been affected by this appalling the Russian Government about how those people are thing that happened in our country. In January 2011 we being treated. announced a package of measures to provide additional support for those affected, not least because there has Q4. [900501] Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Last week, been a change in the potential outcomes for people with in answer to a question on his marriage tax policy, the HIV compared with those with hep C. I am very happy Prime Minister said that to meet my right hon. Friend, consider all the issues “all married couples paying basic rate tax will benefit from this that he raises and see whether there is more we can do to move.”—[Official Report, 9 October 2013; Vol. 568, c. 151.] bring this very sad chapter to a close. That was not correct, was it? Will he confirm that?

Q3. [900500] Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): The Prime Minister will know of the many injustices that The Prime Minister: What I said was that the married have been meted out by Atos in the past few years. couples tax allowance tax is available to all couples who They were mentioned again on Monday at Department are on basic rate tax. Anyone who has unused tax for Work and Pensions questions. The latest victim was allowance is able to transfer it between the husband or a farmer and a butcher in Bolsover who went to Atos in the wife. It comes back to a very simple principle: we December 2012 and was stripped of his benefit. For want to back marriage in the tax system. We do not 11 months he waited for an appeal and then his want to do so only in the inheritance tax system, as the aggressive cancer took his sight, took his hearing, and Labour party did; we want to back marriage for less then last Friday took his life. Is it not time that we put well-off couples. If the shadow Chancellor wants to an end to this system whereby people who are really raise another point of order, I am very happy to stick suffering should not be allowed an appeal, having to around and hear it out. live on £70 a week, for him and his widow? There are two things the Prime Minister should do: first, with Q5. [900502] Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): immediate effect, make an ex gratia payment to his I had originally intended to raise the A14 with my right widow to cover the suffering, the pain and the loss of hon. Friend, but a really important announcement has income, and secondly, abolish this cruel, heartless been made today by the Supreme Court. It has monster called Atos—get rid of it. It is not fit for unanimously turned down the appeal on prisoners’ purpose. voting rights and, importantly, reasserted that it is the role of this Parliament to make the decision, rather The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman rightly than others. Will he ensure that we will not be voting raises what is clearly a desperately sad case and I am for prisoners’ voting rights in this Parliament? very happy to look at the specifics of it. Everyone who has constituency surgeries and talks to constituents The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for knows that we have to improve the quality of decision forsaking the A14 to raise this very important issue. I making about this issue, but where I take issue with him congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the is that I think it is important that we carry out proper Attorney-General on this excellent result. He fought assessments of whether people qualify for benefits or this case himself in front of the Supreme Court and do not qualify for benefits. [Interruption.] Thatiswhy, made a compelling and forceful argument. This is a before Members on the Opposition Benches shout about victory for common sense. My views on the issue are this, they started to look at work capability—[Interruption.] well known: I do not believe that prisoners should have the vote, and I believe that that is a matter for this Mr Speaker: Order. The question was heard, and House of Commons. The Supreme Court has today heard, I think, with great courtesy, and the answer must stood up for common sense and democracy and made it be heard. clear that this issue has nothing to do with the European Union, and I think that we can all rejoice at the result. The Prime Minister: That is why the previous Government did look at the issue of work capability Q6. [900503] Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) assessments and making sure that we have a proper way (Lab/Co-op): The number of people helped by food of judging who should be receiving benefits and who banks in 2012-13 was triple what it was the previous should not. As I say, we can always improve the system. year. Is the Prime Minister proud of that achievement? There are appeals in the system, but I am very happy to look at the individual case. The Prime Minister: Food bank usage went up 10 times under the previous Labour Government. Of course, I Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): The Arctic 30 include want all families being helped with their living standards. six British citizens, including Alexandra Harris, a friend That is why we should recognise that we are getting of my daughter. I am really concerned that their ecological more people into work, we are growing our economy, protest about Sakhalin Island and the grey whales is we are keeping interest rates down and, crucially, we are being misinterpreted as piracy because nobody wants cutting taxes—four things that are vital to living standards the scrutiny of the environmental work they are doing. and four things we would never get from a Labour Will something be done? Government. 737 Oral Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 738

Q7. [900504] Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): In September The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Solihull’s ambulance service moved to a make ready right to make that point. We have taken 2.7 million system, and today there are no two-man ambulances people out of income tax altogether because we have based in the borough. Several of my constituents have lifted the first £10,000 of what you can earn before you already been left for totally unacceptably long periods start paying taxes. This means also that someone on the waiting for an ambulance to take them to hospital. minimum wage working full-time—the Leader of the Talking to ambulance chiefs is like a dialogue of the Opposition asked about the working poor—has seen deaf, so will the Prime Minister agree to meet me to see their tax bill come down by something like two thirds. what can be done before a constituent dies waiting for Yes, I want to see taxes cut for all, but the only way we an ambulance to arrive? can do that is to continue to get the deficit down, to bear down on public spending, and not listen to Labour The Prime Minister: I absolutely share my hon. Friend’s Members, who even today are making massive concern about the importance of ambulance response commitments to more welfare spending and more public times. I think that we then have to task the NHS with spending, which would mean higher taxes, higher how best to it meet those targets, because what matters borrowing, and more of the same old Labour. most of all is swift attendance for people who need it. I Q9. [900506] Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) am very happy to arrange a meeting with her and (Lab): Does the Prime Minister consider it a source of Health Ministers to look at this. I know that the West shame that on his watch the Red Cross has announced Midlands ambulance service is looking at ways of improving that it will be distributing food to British families for its service, and clearly she will encourage it to do just the first time in 70 years? that. The Prime Minister: What the Red Cross is choosing Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The Prime Minister to do, and it is its choice, is to work with FareShare, will know that yesterday the Independent Police Complaints which is an excellent charity that makes sure that Commission published a damning report on an event supermarkets do not waste food but make that food involving the former Government Chief Whip. The available to people who need it. I think that is thoroughly report goes to the heart of the integrity and ethics of worth while. But what we need to see—I repeat it the police. Does he agree with the Home Secretary, who again—is a rise in living standards which we will get if said in evidence to the Home Affairs Committee yesterday we keep growing the economy, keep getting more jobs, that it would be right for the relevant chief constables to keep cutting people’s taxes, and keep interest rates and apologise to the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield mortgage rates low. Those are the four things this (Mr Mitchell) and wrong if the relevant officers did not Government are delivering—four things that we never face disciplinary proceedings? would have delivered if we had listened to a word from Labour Front Benchers.

The Prime Minister: I agree 100% with what the Q14. [900511] Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) Home Secretary said yesterday. We should be clear (Con): Yesterday I presented a petition to the about what we are discussing here. The whole case of Department of Health calling for a £420 million what happened outside No. 10 Downing street is with hospital redevelopment in Brighton, Kemptown. Does the Crown Prosecution Service and we have to leave it the Prime Minister agree that this money would make a on one side until it makes its decision. What is being real difference to patients right across Sussex and to the discussed here is the fact that my right hon. Friend the hard-working staff at my local hospital? former Chief Whip had a meeting with Police Federation officers in his constituency where he gave a full account The Prime Minister: I understand that the business of what had happened. They left that meeting and case for the £420 million redevelopment of the regional claimed that he had given them no account at all. centre for teaching, trauma and tertiary care at Royal Fortunately this meeting was recorded and so he has Sussex County hospital in Brighton is currently being been able to prove that what he said was true and what considered. Let me make the point that obviously we the police officers said was untrue. That is why the right can only consider it because this Government decided hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) is absolutely not to cut the NHS but to put extra resources into it. I right: my right hon. Friend is owed an apology. The am sure that when it is considered an announcement conduct of these officers was not acceptable. These will be made. things should be properly investigated, as the Home Secretary has said. Crucially, it is absolutely right for Q10. [900507] Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): the right hon. Gentleman’s Committee to discuss this Tax cuts for millionaires, tax cuts for the wealthiest with the chief constables concerned and try to get to the companies in this country and a bonus bonanza in the bottom of why better redress has not been given. City, while millions are denied the right to work and people who are hard working in work have had their pay cut by £1,500: when are this Government, made up Q8. [900505] Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) of privileged, privately educated millionaire Ministers, (Con): May I congratulate the Prime Minister on going to do something and get in the real world instead taking 2 million people out of income tax but note the of being the political front of the hedge funds and the 1.3 million earning salaries of about £40,000 who have bankers in the City? been sucked into the higher rate? As he pursues the Tory mission to take the low-paid out of tax, may I The Prime Minister: Well, we all know who did the urge him to deliver it by cutting Government spending most for the hedge funds and the bankers—it was the so that we can also ease the squeeze on the middle people who allowed the banks to go bust in the first classes? place. It is this Government who are cutting taxes for 739 Oral Answers 16 OCTOBER 2013 740 working people, taking 2.7 million people out of tax, Obviously, the first thing we need to do is get passed compared with the disgrace of the Government the through the House of Commons the Bill that will cut hon. Gentleman was in, who scrapped the 10p income the national insurance bill of every business in the tax rate. country, helping Britain’s small businesses in particular. It will mean that single traders will be able to take on Q11. [900508] Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): three people earning the minimum wage without paying We all appreciate that government requires hard any national insurance. That is the most important choices about priorities. Does the Prime Minister agree thing we can do. We should continue to look at the that a generous basic state pension based on a triple business rate system and encourage councils to make lock should have greater priority than more generous sure that they do everything they can to apply the benefit payments? discounts where they are available and to continue to work on this issue. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very important point. I am proud of the fact that, last year Q13. [900510] Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/ under this Government, the basic state pension went up Co-op): Under this Government, wages in real terms by £5.30 a week. We have the inflation figures for have fallen in every region of the UK. Given that those September, so we can say that, because of our triple in Harrow and across the rest of London are, on lock, the basic state pension will go up by the rate of average, £2,200 worse off each year, when will the inflation—2.7%—next year. Of course, the Labour party’s Prime Minister take personal responsibility for this? commitment to an earnings increase in the basic state pension would not see anything like that, and yet at the same time it is choosing to uprate welfare by 2.7% when The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman has to look we think it should go up by 1%. We have the priorities at disposable income as well as wages. Because this to stand up for people who have worked hard, done the Government have cut people’s taxes and because we are right thing and saved during their lives and who deserve allowing people to keep £10,000 of what they earn dignity in retirement. Unlike the Labour party, we will before they pay taxes, disposable income went up last never let our pensioners down. year and is rising as we speak. This is important for the Labour party, because if it goes on attacking spending Q12. [900509] Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): cuts and asking for more and more spending, everyone This week the Office for National Statistics reported will know that with Labour you get—repeat after me—more that house price inflation in London was running at borrowing, more spending and more taxes. It is the 8.7%. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is inevitable same old Labour. that his mortgage guarantee scheme will simply feed this property price bubble at the expense of individual, Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Is my right hon. low-cost home buyers? Friend aware that unemployment has fallen in Harlow and jobseekers are encouraged by lower tax for lower The Prime Minister: I do not accept that for a moment. earners? Will my right hon. Friend go one step further It is interesting that Labour has now come out against and look in the long term at raising the threshold at the Help to Buy scheme. Whereas we want to help which low earners pay national insurance? people get on the housing ladder and own a place of their own, the Labour party is, as ever, standing against those people. If the hon. Lady looks at house price The Prime Minister: I am very happy to look at what increases outside London and the south-east, she will my hon. Friend says. He is a real champion of the see an increase of 0.8%. Mortgage activity is still way low-paid and people who want to work hard and improve below what it was before the recession struck. We want their circumstances. Clearly, taking people out of tax is to help people get on the housing ladder and achieve hugely helpful. We should always look at national insurance. their dream of home ownership. Clearly, the Labour The priority there is to help small businesses take people party does not care for them. on. It is worth recognising in the figures announced today that there are 1 million extra people in work and that three quarters of those jobs are full-time jobs, not Q15. [900512] Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): The part-time jobs. What I think we can see is that the Prime Minister will know that in my constituency some country is getting stronger, the economy is improving businesses are paying almost as much in business rates and more people are getting into work. We need to as they are in rent. What steps will he take to persuade encourage that, rather than set it back. local councils to use the powers this Government have given them to reduce those rates and make the right choices to support hard-pressed retailers? Mr Speaker: I know that the substantial throng of colleagues who are leaving the Chamber will do so as The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, quickly and quietly as possible. An expectant House who is a real champion on this issue for small business. can now hear Mr David Morris. 741 16 OCTOBER 2013 Gibraltar (Maritime Protection) 742

Gibraltar (Maritime Protection) The Bill has become even more relevant in the past week because a Spanish navy patrol boat has again been Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order found sailing 2 miles off Gibraltar without the relevant No. 23) permissions. The vessel, which was carrying out fisheries and coastal patrol duties, was challenged by the Royal 12.35 pm Navy as it sailed in the waters south of the Rock of David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I Gibraltar. The Spanish ship lingered in Gibraltan waters beg to move, for 30 minutes before moving off. I understand that the That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision to Gibraltan Government will be launching a diplomatic protect the seas around Gibraltar; and for connected purposes. protest about that incident, which showed that the I thank colleagues from both sides of the House who Spanish are not letting up their campaign. We must step have agreed to sponsor the Bill. I received offers from up a gear and legislate to define Gibraltar’s waters. many more Members than the 11 I was allowed to use. I Gibraltar was formally ceded to the British in article 10 am sure that the people of Gibraltar will take great of the treaty of Utrecht 1713. At the time no mention pride in the amount of support that there is in this was made of its territorial waters, and some have made House for their interests. Many right hon. and hon. much play about that. In reality, however, the right of Members have great affection for the people of Gibraltar. every country to define its territorial waters is clearly That is vital at a time when Gibraltar needs the support defined in international law, and 18th-century international of the British Government. treaties provided for a claim of up to 3 nautical miles. In The Bill would define the territorial waters of Gibraltar 1982, the UN convention on the law of the sea gave us in primary legislation as 3 nautical miles from the coast the right to 12 nautical miles, or the middle of the sea of Gibraltar. I do not wish to anger Spain by introducing where the two waters overlap. That treaty was ratified this Bill. Spain is a key ally, friend and neighbour of the by the United Kingdom and Spain. Admittedly, the UK. I therefore believe that we should be polite, clear Spanish issued a statement at the time, but—critically—they and firm in our approach to this sensitive issue. I believe signed the convention anyway, making the Spanish that cementing in our statute book a definition of the claim to Gibraltan waters baseless in international law. Gibraltan territorial waters would be the most agreeable The British and Gibraltarians have never chosen to take way forward. 12 nautical miles. We have long believed that three are enough, and it would be wrong to claim more territorial I decided to introduce the Bill after visiting Gibraltar waters than are needed, especially given the sensitivity and seeing at first hand the frustration of its people that of the issue. Nevertheless, the Bill does not close the their waters are not being protected. In the summer, door for Gibraltar to claim 12 nautical miles in future various news reports showed scores of people waiting at should it wish. the border to enter Spain. That stemmed from an argument that the Spanish were having with Gibraltar My Bill aims to enshrine in law a position that has over their territorial waters. In July, Gibraltar dropped already been formally adopted for many years and that 70 concrete boulders into the waters around its coast to recognises a 3 nautical mile stretch of water as Gibraltar’s. create an artificial reef. The purpose of the reef was to Indeed, questions have been raised in the past about protect marine life in the area and to ensure that fish why Gibraltar does not stake its legal claim to 12 nautical stocks improved. The Spanish press were strongly against miles of territorial waters. That issue was the subject of the reef and claimed that the boulders were stopping a Foreign Office question on 14 February 2006, when Spanish fishermen from being able to fish, as their nets the then hon. Member for Hereford asked why we do were being destroyed. In fact, only one Spanish fisherman not claim the full 12 nautical miles. The shadow Foreign was affected by the reef. Secretary, then a Minister in the FCO, stated: Spain has used the same kind of concrete reef in its “Under international law, States are entitled, but not required, waters as part of an EU project to protect and improve to extend their territorial sea up to a maximum breadth of 12 nautical miles. Where the coasts of two States are opposite or fish stocks. It has received millions of pounds in EU adjacent, the general rule is that neither is entitled, unless they funding to produce that reef. I do not know why Spain agree otherwise, to extend its territorial sea beyond the median has turned on this kind of reef, nor why it decided to line. The UK Government considers that a limit of three nautical use the reef as an excuse to hold up Gibraltan people miles is sufficient in the case of Gibraltar.”—[Official Report, who were passing into Spain at the border. 14 February 2006; Vol. 442, c. 1902W.] What I do know is that the Gibraltan people are Of course Gibraltar could at some point in future proud of their membership of the EU and want to work claim the full 12 nautical miles, but the aim of the Bill is with Spain to their mutual financial benefit. That does to claim 3 miles of territorial water in legislation, making not take away from the fact that they are immensely the greatest effort to keep a good working relationship proud of their Gibraltan heritage. During the recent with Spain while supporting the interests of the tensions, Gibraltarians have begun to treat the artificial Gibraltarians. Should the Bill be passed, it will complement reef as a hero and have affectionately named it “Reefy”. the work of Gibraltar’s coastguard agency, which has It has become a symbol of their national identity and been protecting 3 miles of territorial waters since 2011. an unofficial logo for their national day celebrations. The dedication of that team who, among other tasks, It is clear that Spain is choosing to flout the historically conduct general patrols of territorial waters and enforce recognised boundaries of Gibraltan waters. It is time shipping laws and port rules, should be applauded. By for Britain to stand firm and make it clear to Spain backing the Bill we are supporting the hard-working what the legal boundaries should be. I do not want to team who work tirelessly to protect Gibraltan waters. see a repeat of the incident in which a British jet skier I was lucky enough to visit Gibraltar recently, along was hounded and fired at with plastic bullets by the with other Members of the House, many of whom are Spanish Guardia Civil while in Gibraltan waters. sat on these Benches today. The overwhelming feeling 743 Gibraltar (Maritime Protection) 16 OCTOBER 2013 744 [David Morris] Opposition Day we received was the pride that the Gibraltarians feel for their country, and their independence was astounding. [7TH ALLOTTED DAY] We as a country should never forget the Gibraltan people and their right to decide their own destiny, and I Zero-hours Contracts fully support my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary when they say that we must 12.45 pm never enter into any discussions about the sovereignty Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): I beg to move, of Gibraltar without its say so. That this House notes the marked rise in the use of zero hours It is also important that when the Gibraltarians are contracts with recent estimates that as many as a million employees crying out for assistance and assurance, we act in the are employed on them and that they are used in over a quarter of clearest and strongest way possible. Let me be clear: workplaces, contributing to growing insecurity for families across Spain is our ally and friend, but we must not let Gibraltar the UK; and therefore calls on the Government to initiate a full be bullied by Spain for that reason. Spain should embrace consultation and formal call for evidence on the use of zero hours Gibraltar as Gibraltar could be the financial powerhouse contracts and on proposals to prevent abuses by employers of such contracts, for example, by stopping employees on zero hours of that region. It could be similar to what Hong Kong is contracts being required to work exclusively for one employer, to China, but with one crucial difference—it will not be stopping the use of contracts that require zero hour workers to be claimed back. I hope the whole House will back this Bill available on the off-chance they are needed but with no guarantee and send a resounding message of our support to our of work, banning the use of zero hours contracts where employees brothers and sisters in Gibraltar. Gibraltar has a right are in practice working regular hours and putting in place a code to its territorial waters, and this House supports that of practice on the use of zero hours contracts. right. We are in the midst of the biggest living standards Question put and agreed to. crisis in a generation, a crisis that is affecting every community in the country. We know that at its heart is Ordered, the issue of pay. People are working harder than ever That David Morris, Alec Shelbrooke, Andrew Rosindell, before but earning less: they have on average suffered a Bob Stewart, Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil, Mr Graham £1,500 pay cut since the Government came into office. Brady, Mr Nigel Evans, Caroline Dinenage, Ian Paisley, We know that at the same time as wages have been Sir Gerald Kaufman, Jim Dobbin and Sir Peter Bottomley falling, costs have been increasing, with prices rising present the Bill. faster than wages in 39 of the 40 months of this David Morris accordingly presented the Bill. Government. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on We also know that insecurity goes to the heart of this Friday 28 February 2014, and to be printed (Bill 115). living standards crisis, too. Those in work now feel less secure and more pressurised at work than at any time in the past 20 years, according to the most recent UK skills and employment survey. The UK Commission for Employment and Skills, which co-funded the survey, says that what we have now is a climate of fear. Indeed, research shows that double the number of people feel insecure at work today compared with three years ago. Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that the biggest collapse in living standards occurred from 2008 to 2010 under the Labour Government, when they bankrupted the country and drove people out of work? We are trying to recover from that position. Mr Umunna: The right hon. Gentleman talks about us bankrupting the country. He knows, because I have heard him talk about this many times before, that the problems we had in 2008-09 found their gestation in the banking sector, which is ultimately where responsibility lies. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab) rose— Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that wages have been cut by about 5% in the three or four years since this Government came to power, and that it was the bankers who started it? More importantly, does he agree that zero-hours contracts are a throwback to the 1930s when miners and dockers had to turn up to work not knowing whether they would get a job. This is a modern veneer on an old, tried and tired system that was chucked out many years ago. 745 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 746

Mr Speaker: Order. Just before the shadow Secretary the norm in some sectors, with the Chartered Institute of State responds to that intervention, may I gently say of Personnel and Development estimating that up to 1 that it is helpful if everybody is clear to whom the million people are on such contracts. Member who has the floor is giving way? The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) is sorely pained as he Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) thinks the intervention was supposed to be his. I know (LD): The hon. Gentleman will understand that across not, but the shadow Secretary should make it clear. the House there is concern—or there should be—about this issue, and I am glad that we are debating it. He Mr Umunna: I am happy to give way to my hon. touched on the point I wanted to ask him about. Will he Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) too. confirm, however, that the Labour Government never addressed this issue by making it illegal, so it remained Ian Lucas: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving possible throughout the whole period of their way. I just wanted to correct the right hon. Member for Administration? Neutrally, does he have any objective, Wokingham (Mr Redwood). In my constituency, the accurate statistics on the number of people affected by average male wage in real terms was £530.80 in 2010. zero-hours contracts during the last Government and That fell to £453.50 in 2011, the first year of the the number of people affected since 2010 under this Tory-Liberal Democrat Government. Administration? Mr Umunna: I will come to both those points in the Mr Umunna: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, remainder of my speech. and he is right to point that out. We are in the fourth Some Government Members trumpet this insecurity year of this Government and blame is continually attributed and talk about it as evidence of flexibility in our labour to the Labour party. This Government ought to look at market, and it is true that some workers like these what they are doing to our country and our economy. arrangements, but for most working people they mean My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South insecurity for them and their families and leave them (Mr Cunningham) made a point about insecurity at subject to the whim and demands of their employer to work. That insecurity is not just borne out of three work at short notice, so the flexibility is not a two-way wasted years of a flatlining economy following the street; it is a one-way street in favour of the employer, Government’s 2010 comprehensive spending review which and that is insecurity writ large and totally unacceptable. caused confidence to fall and demand to nosedive; it is also because the nature of work has changed in recent Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): On years. Half the rise in employment since 2010 has been Friday, a heavy goods vehicle driver for Royal Mail and in temporary work, driven primarily by people doing his wife came to my surgery and told me that one week temporary jobs because they cannot find permanent he works two nights, the next he might work three, and work—more than 500,000 people fall into that category— his wife explained what that meant for them as a family. while record numbers of people are in part-time work What does that say about companies such as Royal who would prefer to be working full time, meaning that Mail that use this practice continually? there is huge underemployment. Mr Umunna: Some argue that we should not point to But perhaps the most shocking symptom of the bad practice in the business community because to do changing nature of work is the proliferation of the use so is to fuel anti-business rhetoric. I think that it is of zero-hours contracts, under which a person is not important that we call out people who are systematically guaranteed any work, is usually expected to be around exploiting and abusing people under these contracts. whenever the employer wants them to be and is paid For example, Sports Direct uses these contracts across only for the work he or she gets, meaning, as my hon. the board, whereas others, such as Asda, acknowledge Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) that they could use them if they wanted, but do not said, that individuals engaged under these contracts want to treat their people in that way, and if that means never know when work will come and therefore whether that they have to spend more time drawing up rotas and they can sustain themselves and their families week to using overtime arrangements in contracts, so be it; they week. do not want to treat people in that way. Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Is it not Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): Does my tough to listen to the Prime Minister giving answers hon. Friend agree that firms that exploit people by about rising employment, given the type of employment using zero-hours contracts are undermining good employers that that represents, as we have just heard? Should the who institute flexible working and annualised contracts, Government not come clean about the falling claimant meaning that we are in danger of the bad driving out count and listen to what my hon. Friend is saying about the good? the type of work people are having to go into? Mr Umunna: I completely agree with my hon. Friend; Mr Umunna: This is a key point. Will any job do? We of course, it means they can undercut others, so hers are clear that any old job will not do. We want to ensure was a point well made. that people have decent work that is paid a salary they Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I can live off and which is secure too. That has to be our congratulate my hon. Friend on the excellent points he ambition for the country. is making in support of good companies that recognise, I do not deny that these contracts have been in use for as I know from my time in business, that those with many years—I will turn to their use in the House a bit insecure jobs will never deliver for their companies the later—but until recently they were very much the exception same quality of work or be as motivated as a well-paid, to the rule. The problem is that now they are becoming secure employee. 747 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 748

Mr Umunna: That was exactly the point I was just the Liberal Democrat conference by the Secretary of about to make. Of course, insecurity at work lowers a State to do so. Has the Office for National Statistics person’s standard of living and makes managing their been asked to clarify how many of these contracts family commitments impossible. As my hon. Friend might be in use, given that research suggests there are says, insecurity is bad for business because insecure, far more than in the ONS estimates? poorly paid workers are less committed and less productive. It is also bad for the public finances, because if people The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation are not getting the hours or earning a decent wage, that and Skills (Michael Fallon) indicated assent. means less income tax and national insurance going to the Exchequer and more being paid out in credits, so Mr Umunna: I don’t think so, because Ministers keep everybody loses out. quoting statistics from the ONS to me, despite its having conceded that there is a real risk that they do not reflect Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): A few weeks reality. ago, I was talking to a constituent of mine on a zero-hours Have the Government devoted the same energy and contract with the Co-operative group. Is the Co-operative time to protecting people from the exploitative use of group exploiting its workers? these contracts as they have to implementing the recommendations of the Prime Minister’s employment Mr Umunna: I will come to that point very shortly. law adviser, Adrian Beecroft, for watering down people’s Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): My hon. Friend rights at work? No, they have not. referred to the impact on families. Will he expand on that? What is the impact of zero-hours contracts on a Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): My mother’s or father’s ability to plan picking their children hon. Friend is absolutely right to talk about the insecurity up from school in a week’s time, to plan family holidays that zero-hours contracts can create, which happens in or Christmas or to plan whether they can afford a three ways: by insisting on availability even when there mortgage? is no work; by requiring workers to work exclusively for one business; and by using zero-hours contracts to Mr Umunna: I will come to that point shortly and tell erode and water down the basic rights in the workplace the House the story of a zero-hours contract worker I of employees who work regular hours. Is that not what met recently in exactly that position. we need to clamp down on? The Government and policy makers can acknowledge the problem, but the question is this: at a time when Mr Umunna: Absolutely, and I will come to how we people feel more insecure than ever, will they just heap intend to do that shortly, but I give way to the hon. further insecurity on them, or will they act to do something Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), who has been about the situation? What have the Government done? waiting patiently. First, we have their failed economic plan. Thanks to Guy Opperman: The hon. Gentleman was talking the policies they have pursued, unemployment and about the unemployment figures. Does he accept that in underemployment remain stubbornly high, with almost the north-east they have fallen by 17,000 since February 2.5 million people still out of work, including, tragically, this year and are now lower than when we came into almost 1 million young people. I do not think that that office in May 2010, and that youth unemployment is is cause for celebration. It is welcome that growth has down since February by 7,000, from 12% to 9.2%? Is returned, but for all the talk of rebalancing, in the that not evidence that things are changing for the better? fourth year of the Government, that rebalancing looks as elusive as ever. We just have to look at the statistics Mr Umunna: I do not deny that it is welcome to see that came out this morning. In today’s employment anybody who is out of work getting into work, but as figures, of course it was good to see unemployment fall my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison in parts of our country, but in many regions—London, McGovern) put it, the question is: what is the nature of the north-west, the east midlands and the south-west—it that work? increased. In fairness to the Secretary of State, I think he wants Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con) rose— to act. I know, for example, that he has hit out at people in his Government who want to slash away employment Mr Umunna: I will give way shortly. protections, describing them as “head bangers” who see Secondly, what are the Government doing to the liberalising the labour market as “an aphrodisiac”. Who protections for working people in the workplace? They on earth could he be referring to? I suspect that he is are watering them down left, right and centre. They prevented from acting by the Minister of State, the right have increased from one to two years the length of hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon)—who is service required before someone can enforce their right sitting next to him—who has described his boss as not to be treated unfairly at work and they have introduced “slipping his electronic tag” for daring to speak about employment tribunal fees of £1,200. The Minister for the need for a more responsible capitalism, which I Skills and Enterprise described that as a moderate would argue includes companies treating their workers charge, but for low-income workers it is the equivalent fairly. In any case, the Secretary of State has allowed of several weeks’ pay. The Government have also reduced what has happened to go on and has therefore been the consultation period for collective redundancy. I complicit in watering down people’s rights at work in could go on. the way I have described. Thirdly, what have the Government done on zero-hours Where this Government have failed, we will act. To contracts? They have done little, if anything at all. Has pick up on the point made earlier, there are little firm a full consultation and call for evidence been issued? data on the extent of the use of zero-hours contracts, No. To date, there has been none, despite promises at partly because many people do not realise that they are 749 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 750 on them. However, over the summer months, the Office to that debate, giving further testimony about people’s for National Statistics produced revised figures, putting experiences on such contracts. In fact, my hon. Friend the number at more than 250,000. That is likely to be a the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon)—I do severe underestimate, given that others have estimated not know whether she is here today—talked about how that more than 300,000 employees in the care sector she had been employed on a zero-hours contract for alone are now on such contracts. Consequently, I, along two years in the retail sector. I note that not one with my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Government Back Bencher spoke in that debate—save Sawford), who has campaigned hard on this issue, wrote for the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine to the chair of the UK Statistics Authority asking Dorries), who was chairing it—but it is good to see a whether the ONS would clarify the data and publish few more Government Members here today. new figures in the light of the evidence that has arisen. He said that the ONS was reviewing the way it collects Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I was one of the Members the data and looking at whether it can include the data who spoke in that debate. I raised the case of my collected by organisations such as the CIPD. However, constituent who had to leave her children locked in a finding out how many of these contracts are in use is car while she undertook home visits that were given to one thing; looking at how they are used is another. her at short notice under threat of not getting any work in future. In response to that debate, the Under-Secretary Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I do not like zero-hours of State said that that was clearly “not right”, but since contracts because of the insecurity they create for people, then we have seen absolutely nothing from the Government and we should have planning, but they are a fact of life. on how they will protect constituents such as mine and Somehow or other, this House and all of us have to find others, to whom my hon. Friend has referred. Does he a way to reduce them. There are still six Labour-controlled agree that that is an absolute disgrace? councils in London using zero-hours contracts, and we have to try to stop it. It is not easy: I like to see people Mr Umunna: I do agree, and I read my hon. Friend’s employed, but I also like people to have some security in speech from that debate. She talked about what the their lives, and zero-hours contracts sometimes do not Government are doing. The Secretary of State said he give that. was carrying out an informal review, but given that that consisted of just three officials spending part of their time Mr Umunna: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, “speaking informally” with stakeholders—as he told and I think there is some common ground. The issue is me in answer to a parliamentary question that I tabled not necessarily the use of such contracts per se; it is the on this issue—that is clearly insufficient. Therefore, in exploitative use of them. That is what we have to August, I and the shadow employment relations Minister, outlaw, and I will come to that. my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), formally convened a summit, involving more Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): My than 20 different organisations representing employers, constituency has the 10th highest unemployment in the employees, legal experts and people employed on zero-hours country. In the main, the people who come to my contracts, to hear evidence and consider what action surgeries would prefer to be on full-time contracts should be taken to clamp down on their exploitative use. rather than zero-hours contracts, which they are all too Two things arose from the evidence we heard and the often forced into. Does my hon. Friend agree that we consultations we have been carrying out. The consensus must try to stop unscrupulous employers from taking across all stakeholders and groups was that the exploitative advantage of those who are less able to support themselves use of such contracts is a problem—everybody agreed because of their personal circumstances? with that—particularly in the care sector. Those looking after some of the country’s most vulnerable people are Mr Umunna: I completely agree with my hon. Friend, themselves vulnerable under these contracts. Given that who, as it happens, intervenes just as I was about to talk it is important for those whom they are looking after to about Merseyside. I was talking about collecting data have stable and continuous care from people with whom on the number of zero-hours contracts being one thing they are familiar, I cannot see how that state of affairs and the evidence about their use being another. He will can have anything other than a detrimental effect on the know that our hon. Friends the Members for Liverpool, quality of care received. Wavertree (Luciana Berger) and for Wirral South and That state of affairs creates issues for many local our right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley authorities because of the way in which social care (Mr Howarth) produced an excellent report in June services are commissioned. Many of them will tell us detailing the use of zero-hours contracts in the Liverpool that it is helping to drive the use of zero-hours contracts area. In that report they told the story of a care worker, in the care sector. They say—some would say that this is whom I have subsequently met and spoken to myself, as not an excuse, but an explanation—that they are left I mentioned earlier. She told me that she had to be with no option but to commission in that way because available to visit clients at their homes at least six days a of the huge funding cuts they have been subjected to week, including evenings. Her rota could change in a under this Government. I understand the challenges flash. If visits were cancelled at late notice, she would that local authorities face—I think we all do—but I often not be paid. If visits were added at the last minute, urge them to follow the example of Southwark council, she would have to manage her child care commitments which is working with providers to eliminate the use of as she best could—a point raised by my hon. Friend the zero-hours contracts, particularly in the care sector. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane). That is the reality of life for people under these contracts. Simon Hughes: The hon. Gentleman is being generous In July, my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland with his time, and I am grateful to him for giving way on Central (Julie Elliott) held a Westminster Hall debate that point, which is directly relevant. He said he would on this issue. Seventeen Opposition Members contributed come back to whether there were statistics on the incidence 751 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 752

[Simon Hughes] Chris Ruane: My hon. Friend has mentioned the use of zero-hours contracts in the Palace of Westminster. I of this form of employment before 2010. To reinforce have contacted the Speaker about this matter, and I the point he is making, to my knowledge, the care sector commend him for his positive response. The problem has used zero-hours contracts for many years, under the also exists across the way in Lambeth palace, and I Labour Government and this Government, and under have tabled parliamentary questions to the Church local authorities of all political colours contracting Commissioners about it. The number of zero-hours services. There are real abuses, and if we can reach contracts in Lambeth palace has gone up from five in consensus, without partisanship, that one of the sectors 2008 to 34 today. Their proliferation is rampant around in which we need to address them most urgently is the the country. The problem is out there, and without care sector, that will be a great service to some of the proper monitoring it will continue to progress. I congratulate lowest-paid people doing the most difficult face-to-face my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State on securing jobs. this debate, which is shining a torch into those dark places and establishing that this is a big political issue Mr Umunna: I think the right hon. Gentleman will that affects millions of poor people out there. agree that what Southwark is doing is a good thing. I note that he is agreeing with me. The Office for National Statistics suggests that the Mr Umunna: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. numbers under the previous Government were around In answer to the question of how we should deal with 140,000 across all sectors, although I acknowledge that the problem, our motion proposes four measures that the way it has collected those data has been somewhat we hope the Government can support or, at least, faulty, in part because it relies heavily on people commit to properly consult on. First, we would ban understanding what their contractual situation is. It is employers from insisting that zero-hours workers be fair to say, however, that there has been a significant available to work—be on call, effectively—even when proliferation of zero-hours contracts over the past few there was no guarantee of work to give them. Secondly, years. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the care we would stop zero-hours contracts that required workers sector. The use of these contracts in that sector might to work exclusively for that employer. The Secretary of have been a niche arrangement before, but it is certainly State has talked about that aspect of the matter before. now becoming the rule. That is what we need to act on. Thirdly, we would prevent the misuse of such contracts I do not believe that there is consensus on advocating when employees were, in practice, regularly working a an outright ban on these arrangements. There are people number of hours a week. We would ensure that they who want them, and there are employers who use them became entitled to a contract that reflected the reality of responsibly, but, as I said to the hon. Member for their regular hours. Finally, alongside those measures, Beckenham (Bob Stewart), the key is to outlaw them we would introduce a code of practice for the use of the where they are exploiting people. In doing that, we need contracts that would ensure, for example, that an employee to acknowledge the people who are doing the right recruited on a zero-hours contract would know that thing as well as draw attention to those who are doing those were their terms of employment. We have announced the wrong thing. the appointment of the former head of human resources We should also acknowledge the need for this House at Morrisons, Norman Pickavance, to lead an independent to get its own house in order in respect of the use of consultation on how we could best implement those zero-hours contracts. We know that there are people measures. who look after us here and help us to do our jobs here In conclusion, I want to say something about where who are engaged on those contracts. That is unacceptable. this will fit with the future of our economy. We need to We should be setting an example. I know that this is reform our economy so that it is fit for purpose, and so being looked into at the moment, but we have not yet that it delivers better and fairer outcomes for people. had a clear commitment from the House authorities not We consistently hear from some people that the best to use such contracts. I think that everyone would agree way to do that is further to liberalise our labour market, that we want to see their use in the House stamped out. which is already the third most liberal labour market in the OECD. That is why they recoil at taking action on Mr Redwood: I want my constituents to have well exploitative zero-hours contracts, but that approach paid, decent jobs, and I have a lot of sympathy with amounts to a global race to the bottom in which we those who do not wish to see exploitative contracts. Will seek to compete with China, India and the other emerging the shadow Secretary of State say a little more about economies by screwing down the pay and terms and how he would define an exploitative contract, and whether conditions of working people in the name of growth. there is more we could do by way of leadership? He is an influential and talented man. Surely there is more That is not the way in which we should be competing, that he could do with Labour councils and trade unions, because it will not deliver better outcomes for the just as those on the Government Benches can do more people we represent. We will deliver better outcomes for with the Government. them, ultimately, by growing those industries that can provide more of the better paid, secure jobs that they Mr Umunna: One of my colleagues has just said to want. Of course that means promoting innovation and me that being praised by the right hon. Gentleman will ensuring that our people have the skills to do those jobs. spell the end of my career. People will point to examples That is why I am always banging on about the need for of Labour-controlled local authorities, but we do not an industrial strategy. We must act to protect those who care who is using these contracts. We simply do not continue to work in low-income, insecure jobs in the less want them to be used exploitatively, and I will explain internationally competitive sectors. Heaping insecurity how we can stop that happening. on them is not the right thing to do. 753 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 754

Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Will the hon. Finally, the hon. Gentleman criticised the statistics. Gentleman give way? The problem is that we have one basic official set of statistics from the Office for National Statistics, suggesting Mr Umunna: No, I will wrap up now as I want to give that there are about 200,000 zero-hours contracts. That others time to speak in the debate. statistic is drawn from the labour force survey, and the In short, we on the Labour Benches do not think that hon. Gentleman was right to say that this is quite a any old job will do. We aspire to full employment, and narrow definition. The Chartered Institute of Personnel to secure and decent work that pays a wage that people Development came out with a figure of 1 million, using can live on. That is our ambition for this country, which a different measure—in other words, what employers is why I hope that Members on both sides of the House judge the number of zero-hours contracts to be—while will support our motion today. the union Unite has come up with a figure of 5 million. Different people are obviously measuring this in different 1.16 pm ways. What I have done is write to the head of the Office The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and for National Statistics, asking him to take this problem Skills (Vince Cable): We very much welcome this on board. We have a very serious problem of definition opportunity to debate this issue. It has had a lot of and numbers, so I have asked the head to pull together media coverage, and we have already had several debates the relevant people so that, from now on, we can have a on it in the House. I am happy to engage with it. I proper database on the basis of which to make rational realise that the purpose of Opposition day debates is to decisions. generate opposition, but the truth is that there is quite a lot of common ground on this issue. None of us wants Ian Lucas: Is not the difficulty the fact that the to see employers abusing their employees. Government have acted by removing the rights of employees The thrust of the motion seems to be to ask me to do to enforce their employment rights by doubling the what I am already doing. I made it clear a month ago qualification for unfair dismissal and by introducing that we were going to have a consultation on this what appear to my constituents to be huge fees to matter, and I can tell the hon. Member for Streatham initiate industrial tribunal or employment tribunal (Mr Umunna) that we are aiming to clear the process proceedings? The right hon. Gentleman is undermining through government by mid-November in order to launch the taking of such action by legislating to take away the consultation formally. There is no disagreement employees’ rights. How liberal is that? about that. There are elements in the motion that I could pick Vince Cable: There are still significant opportunities holes in and disagree with. There is a call for evidence, for people who are subject to unfair dismissal. We but also, slightly oddly, a series of concrete action points reformed the system because we considered that it that have been put forward regardless of any evidence provided a very significant barrier to small and medium- that might emerge. That seems to be making slightly sized growth companies and thus to employment odd use of evidence-based decision making. That is a opportunities with them. We think we have got the quibble, but I do not have an enormous problem with balance right. the basic thrust of the motion. I guess the hon. Gentleman Alison McGovern: Let me take the right hon. Gentleman has to criticise the Government, however, as this is an back to the statistics for one minute, if the House will Opposition day debate, and I will take head-on the forgive me, because they really matter. The statistics three specific points that he has made. provide the only way of finding out what is going on in First, he talked about our failure to act, but the our economy from the Government’s point of view. The problem has been around for many years, as my right care Minister told me that 300,000 people working in hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old the care sector were on zero-hours contracts, so that is Southwark (Simon Hughes) has pointed out. The trade what the Government say; yet the Office for National unions repeatedly told the last Labour Government Statistics—and therefore the Government again—have that there was a problem in this area. The 1998 White reported that there are 250,000 such workers in that Paper drew attention to it and suggested possible courses sector. That discrepancy cannot stand. In a recent of action, but no action was ever taken. I know that parliamentary answer in October, one of the Secretary several of my Labour predecessors looked into the of State’s Ministers said that his review did not seek to matter, because concern had been expressed, and while collect any statistics, but the Department is now reporting acknowledging that there was abuse in some areas, they an inconsistency in them. Does not the right hon. broadly took the view that the benefits outweighed the Gentleman feel that his Department can do better than costs. that? The second criticism was that I did not mobilise a small army of civil servants to look at the problem Vince Cable: That is precisely why I am in touch with earlier this summer, but what would be the point of the head of the ONS, so that we can get some high-quality mobilising the civil service to reinvent the wheel? A lot and consistent data. That is the whole point of the of sensible research has already been done. We have exercise. talked to 10 trade unions, all of which have done quite a lot of in-house work. We have also talked to several Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): Does think-tanks, including the Resolution Foundation and the Secretary of State agree that the problem is exacerbated the Work Foundation, both of which have done good when zero-hours contracts are taken in combination work in this area. We did not need to reinvent anything; with the decreasing value of the minimum wage? That the evidence and the anecdotes are there and we are has created conditions under which, either consciously drawing on them. That is the direction in which we are or inadvertently, rather large companies have developed proceeding. business models that rely on top-up benefits to subsidise 755 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 756

[Mr Tom Watson] holistic way than has been the case in the past. Of course I cannot guarantee what the commission will a work force whose take-home pay is not large enough conclude; that is not my job. to cover their monthly bills. That means we end up with Before considering the advantages and disadvantages a multinational company such as McDonald’s, with up of zero-hours contracts, let me make a basic point that to 83,000 staff on zero-hours contracts, being subsidised will probably explain why my Labour predecessors did by the taxpayer to the tune of about £200 million a year. not deal with the problem: it is intrinsically tricky. There We need to find a way of dealing with these contracts in is an issue about what zero-hours contracts actually are; order to deal with the taxpayer interest in the situation. they are not clearly defined. As the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) said a few moments Vince Cable: That depends on what the hon. Gentleman ago, we do not have a definition of exploitation, and we means by what he says. I think he is merely saying what do not even have a definition of what a zero-hours is obvious, although it may need restating—that we are contract is. There are a whole lot of contractual dealing in the wake of the financial crisis with very arrangements, which have two basic conditions attached weak labour markets, and not just in the UK. This has to them. One is that there is no guarantee of work and had impacts on wages and on the nature of contracts. no requirement under British employment law for an The question for the Government and legislators is employer to provide a minimum number of hours. whether the problems around zero-hours contracts are Equally, however, an individual is not required to accept the symptom or the cause. The hon. Gentleman is right an offer of work. Those are the two defining characteristics that the problem interacts quite powerfully with the of a zero-hours contract. minimum wage issue. I have made it clear that I want A wide spectrum of practices has come out of that. the Low Pay Commission to look at the minimum wage At one end of the scale, we have casualisation of different in a more positive way, but it is, of course, an independent forms—we have heard about the history of the docks commission and it is not my job to tell or prescribe to it and other similar traditions, many of which were highly how the minimum wage could evolve. I want to respect undesirable. Equally, at the other end of the scale, the institution that the hon. Gentleman and his Government however, there are large numbers of traditional systems set up. of freelance-type employment—in the creative industries and education, for example. When I started thinking Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Let me take about this subject, I realised that my late wife spent the right hon. Gentleman back to his earlier point when much of her working career on a zero-hours contract he was, as ever, berating Labour for not taking action. working for a further education college. She taught Has he not chosen his own priorities? If he thinks that music to sixth formers, depending on how many turned the previous Government were dilatory on the issue, up for their classes. It was effectively a zero-hours why has he not taken it up sooner? Other legislation, contract. Many people in FE and adult education worked including to take away people’s employment rights, on the same basis, and this is established practice in has been passed, so he has had time to do this if he many other industries. In these cases, it has not been wanted to. viewed as a problem before. I make that point to stress that the definition of a Vince Cable: To help us move on from this point, let zero-hours contract is not precise. Hundreds of thousands me say that I am the first Business Secretary out of the of people—and if we believe the shadow Secretary of last seven or eight—I cannot remember exactly when State, millions—are on these contracts, which vary the issue first came to the surface—who is actually enormously. Some people carry the rights attached to taking action on the issue. Action will emerge from the being a worker—[Interruption.] Well, Unite think it is consultation. We recognise that there is a problem and 5 million people. Some people in these contracts have we recognise that there are some abusive situations, but basic employee statutory rights attached to them as we also recognise some positive things about zero-hours well. They are enormously varied. contracts, which I shall come to in a moment. We have determined to take action, and I am the first Secretary Guy Opperman: To add to the list of contexts and of State to have done so for a long time, after a whole sectors in which this type of contract is the norm and is series of Labour predecessors who, for whatever reason, welcome, let me cite rural Northumberland—represented decided not to. by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon- Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) as well as myself. Zero-hours Simon Hughes: I applaud my right hon. Friend for contracts are in place there, and because of the nature that. It is evident to people outside that there has been of rural employment, neither of us have found anyone no action for many years and that now there will be. complaining about them. Before he completes his statement, will my right hon. Friend not only set out the timetable beyond the Vince Cable: There are many industries of that kind, consultation plan, as far as he can envisage it, but say and I shall shortly enumerate them. I do not want to whether we can find a way of linking the discussion and eulogise this system of employment because there clearly review of the minimum wage with the zero-hours contracts are problems with them in many sectors, but they have issue? It is obvious from how the labour market works worked well in other sectors. That is why when it comes that these issues are interconnected, so it would be to rushing to prohibitions, we need to be careful about worth trying to bring those considerations together. the unintended consequences.

Vince Cable: Yes, and I hope that happens. I have Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): The Secretary of made it clear to the Low Pay Commission that we want State gives me the opportunity of raising the point that to look at the minimum wage in a somewhat more I was hoping to raise with the shadow Secretary of 757 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 758

State. I would never have knowingly employed someone age and want to keep in touch with the labour force but on a zero-hours contract, because I do not like such do not want permanent employment or even an agreed contracts and do not think them appropriate, but it is part-time employment contract, such contracts are quite clear that many managerial, technical and education an attractive proposition. There are other people, in people are working on them. However, the suggestion in industries that are subject to quite a lot of volatility, the Opposition motion of who want to remain connected with the labour force but “banning the use of zero hours contracts where employees are in do not want to be in a position where they have taken practice working regular hours” on permanent employment and are then made redundant. will catch people who are quite content to work on that The car industry provides a good example. One reason basis, when, I imagine, the target is those who are the car industry is successful is that our labour market abusing the system. That is why I would find it difficult has a mix of people, some of whom are on zero-hours to support the motion. I would welcome the Secretary contracts. When I went to the United States to negotiate of State’s comments on that. with people in General Motors, who were deciding whether to come to Britain or Germany, one factor that Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, weighed heavily in favour of the UK was our flexible and that is why a rush to ban certain forms of general approach to employment, including zero-hours contracts, practice could have serious negative unintended along with the fact that the unions, mostly Unite, had consequences. That is not to say that we should not do been constructive in putting those arrangements in something, but a commitment to ban without having place. obtained the evidence would be highly premature. Ian Lucas: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Umunna: First, of course people will not want to complain about being on such contracts, because they Vince Cable: I will finish my list of points. worry whether they will get the hours of work if they do Another group is students, some of whom are looking so. Secondly, the evidence suggests that such contracts for work experience, and most of whom want to be in a were not used during our time in government to the flexible arrangement that reflects the fact that their same extent that they are being used now. That is why timetable varies. Another group—a very important one—is action was not taken. The right hon. Gentleman said he people with family and caring responsibilities. For someone would do something about the issue back in June. Why in that position, the most important attraction of a job was a consultation not started then? Why has he waited is to be able to say no when work is offered, without until October? facing disciplinary procedures, and to be on a contract Vince Cable: After years of waiting and a long discussion that explicitly acknowledges that work can be declined. about the technicalities, the idea that we are somehow failing in our duty because we did not rush to act within Sheila Gilmore: Does the Secretary of State not realise weeks or months is utterly absurd. We are taking action. that there is a huge difference between someone who A proper consultation will be launched, we hope, in wants to work part-time and to know what part-time mid-November. On the back of that, all the organisations hours they have, and a situation where they do not that have not yet had an opportunity to make know and have no control over the hours they work? representations to me can do so, and we can proceed to The notion that it is easy for people on such contracts the appropriate action. to say, “I won’t take those hours because they do not suit my child care arrangements this week” is not the Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): reality that many people are facing. I welcome the tone and content of the Secretary of State’s comments. As he may be aware, the Scottish Vince Cable: I am going on to explain some of the Affairs Committee has also started an inquiry on zero-hours problems and, sometimes, abuses that we encounter, contracts, and I hope we will have co-operation from some of which are of the kind that the hon. Lady the Government. Will he clarify the timetable, on which describes. I am trying to set out both sides of the he was asked for information earlier, for the consultation? argument. The arguments are quite complex, and the When will it start and finish? When does he envisage more we dig into the evidence, the more it becomes clear making decisions? When does he envisage bringing that there is not a simple black-and-white approach to forward legislation? these problems. Let me take her challenge. Clearly, there are abusive situations, and I will go through some of the Vince Cable: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a most obvious ones. concrete date. The consultation will be launched in the The first was mentioned by the shadow Secretary of middle of November, and such consultations normally State: exclusivity arrangements, where people are bound take several months. The level of feedback will determine into a contract with one employer and are not offered how quickly the Government can respond, and that in any hours, but cannot take employment from someone turn will dictate how quickly we can introduce legislation, else. At first sight, that is a very unsatisfactory arrangement. if that is what is required. I am happy to co-operate We discovered that that kind of arrangement operated, with him and his Committee, which I am sure has for example, with the staff at Buckingham palace. When specific Scottish insights. we pursued it, we discovered that one reason is security I want to enumerate some of the positive and negative vetting, as the arrangement prevents people from being aspects of zero-hours contracts that our review has able to pop in and out of different firms. I do not know revealed so far. There are some groups of people for whether that is the justification in the case of Buckingham whom such contracts provide a useful and appropriate palace; there is some complexity to the argument. In kind of employment, regardless of sector. For many general terms, however, I would accept that exclusivity people, for example, who are at or beyond retirement is a very, very undesirable practice. 759 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 760

Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): It is indeed pressurised into taking zero-hours contracts against exactly that practice that happens in railway maintenance, their better judgment and against their preference. All only because certification is needed. Surely in such those things happen, and they must be weighed against circumstances it should not be legal for people to be the undoubted advantages that some individuals and forced into a situation in which they do not get any some industries gain from having the option to make work for weeks on end. such arrangements.

Vince Cable: I am sure the hon. Gentleman has given Jim Shannon: At a time of economic squeeze, when a totally genuine example. I am not a lawyer, but there is those who tender or apply for contracts find that their at present a common law defence against exclusivity. I prices must be lower, they are forced to apply the can see the practical problems of bringing a legal case minimum wage and to restrict working hours, and that against big companies, but none the less some legal has an impact on those who are on zero-hours contracts. protection exists. I accept that in many cases exclusivity Does the Secretary of State feel that the Government may be highly undesirable, and in our consultation we have a duty to ensure that the tender process gives will try to establish what concrete action, if any, we can workers rights, whether it takes place at Government take about it. level, at council level or at regional level? Mr Redwood: When the Secretary of State holds his consultation shortly, will he consult on the extent to Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman is right to view the which there is a problem and try to get a definition of it, matter in that broader context. Several Members, including or will he consult on possible remedies to the abuses he the hon. Member for Streatham, have already given the has identified? example of domiciliary visits in the care sector. I have encountered cases in my constituency involving people Vince Cable: Such abuses are highly relevant, but whose working conditions are very poor, who are on people may come forward and explain, as I have done, zero-hours contracts, whose pay is very low, and for that for certain contexts, groups of workers and sectors, whom there is no chance of no progression. When we such a contractual arrangement is necessary and positive dig into such cases, as I did on one occasion, we may and it would be unhelpful to take action. We have an discover that the companies concerned are not profit- open mind. We are not trying to close down the debate. making companies but charities, and that the real cause of the problem is the very poor price at which they took Mr Watson: On remedies, the Secretary of State the contract. The origin of the problem therefore lies in raises an important point. He referred to the success of local government. The zero-hours contracts and, indeed, the Low Pay Commission earlier. Could one outcome the minimum wage issues are symptoms rather than be a new and enduring institution—a triumvirate model causes. that involves employers, trade unions and Government—to Let me list some of the matters that we will be resolve the complex issues that will continue to face considering in the consultation, and explain how we industry in years to come, after the consultation is over? will approach them. It is important for us not to close down options. First, there is the issue of exclusivity. We Vince Cable: It could be, but I know from my interaction could do nothing, and rely on existing law; we could with them that setting the minimum wage is a complicated ban it; or we could provide effective information and enough issue in itself, but I will certainly bear the guidance requiring employers to justify it. A number of suggestion in mind. legal interventions are possible. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the right hon. Secondly, we must consider the cases of people who Gentleman give way? are employed on zero-hours contracts for very long periods when they do not choose to be. Should we Vince Cable: I will enumerate a few more points and introduce a system requiring employers to offer permanent then take further interventions. employment at some stage? Exclusivity is a serious issue. The second point, which Thirdly—and probably most important—there is the I think one or two Labour Members have been trying to issue of transparency. We can argue in favour of fairness, make, is that there are cases where the simple lack of and we can also argue that, for the economic purposes predictability is damaging for families trying to manage of a flexible labour market, if rational people know their personal finances responsibly, especially those who what they are doing, that is a considerable improvement. are employed on a regular basis for a long period of The problem that we have discovered, and to which time and are then, in the jargon, zeroed down. A many Members have already referred, is that when problem would flow from that. Then there are people people accept a job offer they are often not clear who are on zero-hours contracts for many years and for about the obligations and limitations that are whom it becomes a way of life. There may be good involved. Should we introduce a code of conduct requiring sectoral reasons for it, but in some cases it is a way of proper transparency and information? Should it be keeping them out of regular employment with the various voluntary, should it be a Leveson-style code with obligations that are attached to it. In our gathering of statutory underpinning, or should it be controlled by a evidence, we have encountered two specific instances. stronger sanction-based body? We have a range of options, There are people who sign up to a zero-hours contract and we will view them with an open mind and act in good faith, because it gives them and the employer accordingly. flexibility, but they then take advantage of their right to reject work and are discarded because they are allegedly Mr Donohoe: Given that many employees have recently inflexible, defeating the whole purpose of the contract been denied access to tribunals, what the Secretary of in the first place. We found that other people were State has said is surely illogical. 761 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 762

Vince Cable: I think that the hon. Gentleman is 1.47 pm exaggerating the problem. It is true that we have reformed the tribunal system, and access is less easy than it was. Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op): I will keep As I have explained, we are trying to create a framework my comments brief, Mr. Speaker. within which small and medium-sized enterprises can It is clear that the increasing number of zero-hours expand and take on workers. contracts is one of the last taboos of employment policy. The firms involved have no need to use those Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Much has been contracts: they know exactly how many employees they made of the potentially exploitative nature of the contracts, need each week. Moreover, zero-hours contracts are but if an employer is up against it, is it not more likely immoral, they exploit hard-working people, and they that a zero-hours contract will become an exploitative enable the powerful to dominate the powerless. In Halifax, contract? Should not the Secretary of State consider unemployment levels are very high, job security is low, ways of squeezing and squeezing to make zero-hours and youth unemployment has almost doubled in the contracts not the norm, but very difficult for any employer last three years. That appears to me to be a licence for to enter into such contracts with employees? some employers to introduce zero-hours contracts. What most people want—like the rest of us—is stability, Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman has made, in his security and reassurance in employment. What zero-hours own way, a point that I have made several times, namely contracts provide is exactly the opposite. Some say, “Is that a zero-hours contract may be a symptom rather such a contract not better than no job at all?”, but that than the cause of the problem. Many employers are misses the point. Many advances in employment practices indeed up against it, on the margin of survival—those would never have been made in the last 100 years if the in Northern Ireland probably more than most—and use “status quo”option had always been taken. Only recently, such contracts in order to survive. That presents challenges the very same argument was used to warn of the dangers of its own. of the minimum wage. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I This is obviously not a stable time to be in employment, think that the overall issue of enforceability is critical. especially in northern towns. They have borne the brunt Without trade union rights, these commissions and of the Government’s cuts, which have affected both contracts become unenforceable. public and private sector jobs. There are many well-run I should also like the consultation to consider a companies and decent employers in both those sectors public-interest issue. The example of track maintenance in the town that I represent. They include J&C Joel and was given earlier, and it is a matter that I have raised on Harveys. They care about their employees, they know previous occasions. Network Rail, for instance, has what it is like to manage a budget and they want to keep contracted out a large amount of work to sub-contractors, the town on an even keel. So when I talk about zero-hours who have then sub-contracted it themselves. Some track contracts, I should add that not all companies in my maintenance workers are now employed by as many as constituency are practising this policy, but sadly it is an eight or a dozen employers, and are all on zero-hours increasing trend, and, quite simply, they are an unethical contracts. That has undermined the safety regime that and unwanted means of employing people. They are an we introduced following the disasters at Southall, employers’ charter to make shortcuts, reduce wage bills Paddington and elsewhere. and avoid employment rights obligations. I know there are various contract laws that prevent Vince Cable: I was not aware of that particular detail. an outright ban, but as the shadow Secretary of State I hope that the rail regulators and the Health and Safety said, they should be outlawed. Things can and should Executive are taking it fully into account. be done to water down the opportunity for them to be An issue that has not been mentioned today, but used. We need to look at guaranteeing hours and extending which arose several times during our discussions, is the statutory employee rights to all workers, whatever contracts relationship with jobseeker’s allowance. Many people they are on. All workers should have trade union rights feel that if they decline a zero-hours contract there will and family-friendly rights. Equality in employment should be a sanction, and they will lose their benefits. I can not be decided by a worker’s contract. make it absolutely clear that that is not the case, but It is in times of economic hardship that employers during the consultation we will examine the processes exploit and those without a voice do not get listened to. that are being followed just to reassure people that there This is exactly the time when we should be doing more is no hidden sanction. to protect those hard-working people we constantly We recognise that zero-hours contracts present a real hear about in sound-bites, but who are actually ignored problem. We also recognise that it is a very difficult because of the lack of sound policies. problem, which may be why our predecessors did not engage with it. There are issues of definition, and there Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): The hon. are enormous gaps in the database. However, I can Lady is making some excellent points, but will she at assure the House that if, as a result of the consultation, least acknowledge that there are groups in society who we identify serious issues for which there are practical do appreciate the flexibility that zero-hours contracts remedies, we will take action. provide, such as young students and some single mums? Several hon. Members rose— Mrs Riordan: We have had these debates about students before, and I have a stepson who is a student and has a Mr Speaker: There is no formal time limit, but zero-hours contract, and that is all very fine, but there is approximately 10 Members are seeking to catch my eye, no reason why the employer’s manager cannot get together and we have just under two hours left for Back-Bench with my stepson and arrange the hours for the following speeches. Members can do the arithmetic for themselves. week. It happens all the time. 763 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 764

[Mrs Riordan] I hope he can identify with that experience, perhaps not in his own life, but in reality, in our economy now. He This Government are actually on the wrong side for says we should not be for or against, but I really hope he hard-working people. I know of a company in Halifax. is against that sort of experience, where people cannot A very hard-working young man came to my last surgery. commit to bettering themselves because of these sorts He had been made redundant and had his benefits cut. of contracts. He was living off family. He wanted to work and was given a zero-hours contract and told to turn up every Guy Opperman: As a barrister, I spent two and a half morning at 6 am. The company has a board and if a years without a contract. With respect, I therefore suggest person’s name is not on it, they are sent home and told I do have some experience of that, with no contract to come back the day after—after they have spent whatsoever. I accept that it is right that this House is money on travel. This young man so much wanted a job addressing these issues, and it is right that we are that he said, “Please don’t send me home. I’ve travelled collecting and assessing evidence. I welcome the fact all this way and spent money getting here. Can I sweep that the Secretary of State has put in place the consultation up today? I’ll do anything.” He was told, “No, your and that over this winter we will be obtaining evidence name’s not on that board. Come again tomorrow.” It is on this issue. not rocket science to find a way to let people know the Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): One thing that strikes day before—or the week before, in my opinion—whether me is that there is a big difference between employment there is work for them. That is a long-established company. and self-employment. Is it not important that we are It has not been around for just two minutes and is on a clear which of those zero-hours contracts relate to budget. It knows exactly how many employees it wants self-employment and which to contracted employment, but it keeps people dangling. These are Dickensian and are therefore not being used appropriately? practices that would be out of place in Victorian England, let alone 2013. Guy Opperman: My hon. Friend makes a fair point. There are thousands and thousands of people, many The shadow Secretary of State said that the jobs figures in my Halifax constituency, who are exploited in this are not satisfactory, but he also accepted that we in the way, with lower wages, fewer holidays, no sick pay and north-east are delighted that the jobs figures are finally fewer rights, and who are unaware of their employment improving significantly. Youthunemployment has fallen status. The employers are in a dominant position and by 7,000 since February and is now back to the level of they know it. We have come a long way in improving May 2010. Adult unemployment in the north-east has working conditions in this country over many years, but fallen, too. clearly the journey still has a long way to go. When people look back in years to come, I think they Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Is it not a fact that the will look at the exploitative policies of zero-hours contracts unemployment figures for the north-east have been the and find it hard to believe that in 2013 such practices highest in the country for a number of years? The were in place as a means of suppressing workers who figures released recently appear to show a reduction, need and deserve better. For my Halifax constituents, but a lot of that is to do with people who are on and those across the country, we need to do more to end zero-hours contracts. the shabby practice of zero-hours contracts that have Guy Opperman: I accept that the north-east has no place in a society that deems itself to be a progressive higher unemployment figures than some parts of the one. country, but the May 2010 unemployment figure for the north-east was 80,105, a 6.4% rate, and it is now 78,525, 1.54 pm a 6.3% rate. It is also true that successive Governments Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): It is an honour and have welcomed the fact that part-time work and some a privilege to speak in this debate and it is right that we types of zero-hours contracts have formed the basis of debate low pay and the nature of contracts. I should employment. That continued under the previous make a declaration: as a former barrister, I was Government and it has continued under this Government. unquestionably on a zero-hours contract in that I was The question is the extent to which there is exploitation. an employee whose employer was not obliged to give me work, and I had to accept that. It is certainly the Ian Lavery: The figures have fallen very minimally in case that in rural Northumberland there is an acceptance the north-east since 2010. Does the hon. Gentleman that these types of contracts help to plug a gap. I am not agree that that is largely due to people being on zero-hours going to attack local authorities, whether Liberal, contracts? Conservative or Labour, which have utilised them in the Guy Opperman: I have no evidence to suggest that a past and continue to do so. I suggest it is a question not fall of 17,341 from February 2012 to September 2013 is of this House being for or against zero-hours contracts, all due to zero-hours contracts—in fact, I suggest that it but of this House being against inequitable and exploitative is not, although clearly some of these contracts are involved, zero-hours contracts. and nobody disputes that. As I said to the Secretary of Alison McGovern: I am intrigued by what the hon. State, in the north-east the right hon. Member for Gentleman says about his previous experience. In a Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and I have not report that I and two of my colleagues produced, one received a specific complaint about the utilisation of person told us: these contracts in the rural environment in which we work, because such freelance contracts are generally “It has been very difficult as I want to move on with my life but welcomed, although not in every case, I am sure. can’t as I don’t know when and if I will be next out of work so this stops me from committing into anything financial like moving In welcoming the job numbers, may I make my final out or furthering my education”. point— 765 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 766

Charlie Elphicke: Will my hon. Friend give way? I do not know where Mr Bushey is now, but I wonder what he would have to say about Burger King still being Guy Opperman: I will not, because a number of right up there at the top of the list of users of these people wish to speak. contracts, along with other high-street names ranging My final point is that we need to widen the terms of from Sports Direct to Wetherspoons. the debate on zero-hours contracts to consider the However, by no means all, or the biggest or most minimum wage and the living wage. I welcome the work successful, high-street names use these contracts. Tesco, of the Archbishop of York. I should declare that I serve Sainsbury’s and Morrisons, for example, see no need to in the High Pay Centre with such notable right-wingers use them; my hon. Friend the shadow Business Secretary as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline also mentioned Asda. Responsible employers, they recognise Lucas), who leads the Green party in this House, and a trade union, the Union of Shop, Distributive and the TUC general secretary, Frances O’Grady. We have Allied Workers. They negotiate with that union flexible been looking at not only high pay, but low pay; we have contracts that provide workers with guaranteed hours, been trying to address the problems that definitely do and other rights that most of us take for granted in a exist and making the case that the living wage and the civilised society, but that also mean the work force can minimum wage need to be addressed and embraced as respond to fluctuations in consumer demand, as affect we go forward. I agree with the earlier point that it is other industries. bizarre that we have a subsidy system whereby tax credits, in effect, subsidise the employment of low-paid If Burger King’s Mr Bushey were still around, one workers. That needs to be addressed. might expect him and his counterparts to ask, “Why The final point must surely be this: the living wage does my business need these contracts when these other has been proven not only to save the taxpayer money in great high-street names and other businesses do not?” the longer term, but to improve productivity and to One would certainly expect him, if only for damage benefit the business. One need only look at the US retail limitation purposes, given the controversy now, to look giant Costco to see that. It has broken the mould, at all his outlets to investigate what was happening in paying its staff $11.50 an hour compared with the practice, and to see whether poorly paid, unrepresented federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour. Its chief workers were being abused these days in other ways. executive has said: One would certainly expect him, having done so, to have no fear of engaging full on with the full-blown consultation “We know it’s…more profitable in the long term to minimise and formal call for evidence over the use of these employee turnover and maximise employee productivity, commitment and loyalty” contracts which Labour’s motion calls for today. by paying a living wage. I certainly continue to support Along with other Labour Members, I welcome the that. content and tone of the Secretary of State’s response to this debate and his plans for November. After all, there 2.2 pm is a recent precedent: the last Labour Government did exactly the same in the run-up to the agency workers Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): Mr Speaker, directive, another measure that we discussed to promote I am glad to see that the House rota with Madam fairness in the workplace. I will say a little more about Deputy Speaker is working, so that you all know what that in a moment. Following the debate in recent months, guaranteed hours of work you have in this place. there is already ample evidence to support such a call, With up to 1 million or more people subject nowadays to look at the causes and sometimes deeply damaging to the sometimes pernicious insecurity of zero-hours effects of zero-hours contracts and short-hours working, contracts, it is timely that we return to this subject now and, indeed, how the agency workers legislation is that the House has returned. For me and for many functioning in practice. people, not least those in the trade unions, it comes with We have mentioned examining the use of these contracts a weary, sad sense of déjà vu. It was back in 1995, in respect of care workers and the effects on the care at nearly 20 years ago now, when I worked at The Independent, home of the most elderly and vulnerable people in our that I remember first pursuing the issue of the abuse of society. We also need to look at their use in further and zero-hours contracts, as they have come to be known. higher education, at their growing use in contracted out Those with long memories like mine will recall that the publicly commissioned services and the public sector, controversy was sparked by the case of Michael, a generally, and at their overall effect on the services 17-year-old student in Glasgow who was asked to clock provided. Last but not least, we need to examine their off and on up to four times a day at Burger King, and use in the private sector, on the high street and beyond, was sent home unpaid when there were not enough and their effect on young people and on families, on customers around. Burger King was then owned by their further education and training, and, therefore, on Grand Metropolitan, part of the old-school “beerage”, our society and economy as a whole. and the irony was not lost at the time that its charitable arm, the Grand Met Trust, was in line to run a big, privatised careers service—of all things—in London. Charlie Elphicke: The hon. Gentleman is making a Burger King eventually paid more than £100,000 in thoughtful and considered speech. My constituents in compensation to nearly 1,000 employees who had been Dover and Deal are also deeply concerned about zero-hours either sent home or made to stand around, unpaid, contracts and that there should be fairness in the workplace. until business picked up. Craig Bushey, Burger King’s Does he agree that it is important that we understand then managing director in western Europe, said all the how many of these contracts there are? The Office for way back in 1995 that National Statistics says that the number has not changed “the action taken by Burger King puts this issue to rest and much over the past 10 years, whereas Unite gives a demonstrates our commitment to equitable employment practices.” figure of 5 million and the Chartered Institute of Personnel 767 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 768

[Charlie Elphicke] aimed at tackling the unfairness and insecurity, the fear of substitution by cheaper agency workers, people on and Development has another figure. Is it not really cheaper contracts which, for example, lay at the root of important that we nail down exactly how many of these many people’s support for parties such as the British sorts of cases there are? National party and their fears about immigration. Business opposed that measure, as it opposed the minimum wage. Paul Farrelly: The hon. Gentleman is correct; getting The Government were content to go along with and, the right statistics is absolutely germane to implementing frankly, acquiesce in what I would call economic growth proper evidence-based policy. Coming from Dover, he on the cheap, but nothing does come cheap. Nothing will appreciate the example cited by my hon. Friend the comes for free. There is always a price to pay and we Member for Halifax (Mrs Riordan) from her constituency, certainly saw the political effects with the rise of the which sounded tantamount to some of the practices British National party and in many areas the UK employed at ports in years gone by. Independence party. I am glad to see that we on the Opposition Benches have now got it fully, as is clear Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) from everything that my right hon. Friend the Leader of (Lab): My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. the Opposition has said about levelling up, not levelling Like him, I have long been a trade unionist, in my case down, and not engaging in a doomed race to the bottom. with the GMB, which shares his concerns. What he said about care workers was right, but will he also take on To conclude, I look forward to continuing to pursue board the impact on their clients of the uncertainty that the Government to have a proper consultation on zero- is created? hours contracts and to look at wider aspects of the issue, such as short hours working and the use of Paul Farrelly: My right hon. Friend is right to say agency workers. I look forward also to safeguards being that we must focus on the effects on not only the people included in our manifesto and being implemented by a themselves, but the services they provide. Only at the Labour Government after 2015. beginning of this week, on the “Today” programme, we had a vibrant discussion about what these employment 2.12 pm practices mean on the ground for the amount of time that care workers are able to give to the people they are Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I shall begin supposed to be looking after. That should be part and my contribution by continuing to quote from some of parcel of this continuing debate. the people who kindly gave their view to the report that I welcome the Government’s call for consultation, I and two colleagues undertook earlier this year. I pay but hope it is implemented properly, with a wide-ranging tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley call for evidence. I wish to conclude with a few choice (Mr Howarth), whose idea it was that we do that. He words for my own Front Benchers, too. I welcome my was very insightful in encouraging me and my hon. hon. Friend the shadow Business Secretary’s opening Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana remarks and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Berger) in our campaigning on the issue. Opposition’s commitment to remove some of the insecurity The people who shared their experience with us were and vulnerability involved in these sorts of contracts. brave to do so and I want their words to be heard in the Because taking advantage of vulnerability, a relationship House. The example that I gave when I intervened where power resides all on one side, lies at the root of earlier shows the impact of zero-hours contracts on exploitation that a civilised society should simply not ordinary members of the work force. That person said: tolerate in the modern age. “It has been very difficult as I want to move on with my life but I remind my hon. Friend the shadow Business Secretary can’t as I don’t know when and if I will be next out of work so this that fair treatment of agency workers was there in black stops me from committing into anything financial like moving and white in our 2005 manifesto. It was long before his out or furthering my education more as I do not know if I will be time but he gets the point that I am coming on to, as he in long term work as I am always waiting for them words that I am now a permanent employee. This has not only brought stress is nodding. In 2007, I and many of my hon. Friends on myself but people that are nearest to me as it tends to be them sought to put that pledge into effect through a private that I vent my frustration to”. Member’s Bill, the Temporary and Agency Workers That shows not only the economic impacts, but the (Equal Treatment) Bill. The Government, though—and social and emotional impacts of those contracts. it was before my hon. Friend’s time—far from welcoming that with open arms fought us, bayonets fixed, in the Somebody else told us that it was trenches. It took our late colleague, the former Member “Awful. It’s depressing and demoralising. I feel I have no rights for Crewe and Nantwich, Gwyneth Dunwoody, at her and constantly question ‘why am I even bothering to work?’ Some magisterial best to press a closure motion in the Chamber weeks it would be more beneficial for me to sign onto job seeker’s against Government filibustering even to give that Bill allowance”. an airing. I am sure that is not what this Government want. It is The Bill was followed by another private Member’s certainly not what those of us on the Opposition Benches Bill in 2008, sponsored by my hon. Friend the Member who believe in the dignity of work want to see, but I am for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) and guessing that it is not even what this Government again contested. Eventually the Prime Minister—our want—people who feel that it might be better for them Prime Minister—relented, the agency workers directive just to claim benefits. was implemented but the compromise, with a 12-week qualifying period open to all sorts of abuse, was not a Charlie Elphicke: The hon. Lady makes a very powerful happy one. I am not recounting this for old time’s sake speech. Does she welcome the fact that the Business or gratuitously to open old wounds. That measure was Secretary held a review over the summer and is conducting 769 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 770 a consultation? Does she, like the hon. Member for people were unable to get a mortgage or decide to make Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly), regret that more a long-term investment in their housing, which will have was not done in past times? a knock-on impact. A further effect is the impact on the skills base of our country. Alison McGovern: My grandfather, who was a great I am aware that in the case of students, who have trade union rep, always told me: “When you go in and been mentioned as an example, zero-hours contracts see the boss, never say you’ve done nothing; always say are a fair arrangement. There is no power imbalance you’ve not done enough.” I think my hon. Friend has and that is fine. I am also aware that for some people on learned that lesson. zero-hours contracts there is an investment in their The big problem is the one that I raised earlier with skills. But do the Government think it is more or less the Secretary of State, which is that the Government likely that employers in this country would invest in the seem to be all over the shop with the number of people skills of people who had permanent, stable contracts or affected and what is really going on. My only regret is those whom they had put on zero-hours contracts? I that they did not take the opportunity of the summer to think that the skills base in particular parts of the clear the matter up properly. We will engage with the country will inevitably diminish as a result of this Government and move forward to try to get a resolution, so-called flexibility in the labour market. especially on the care sector, which is very important to Zero-hours contracts clearly do not affect every part me. I shall come on to that. of the country in the same way. The Merseyside city First, I want to say something about values. Although region has developed well over recent years—against the economics are extremely important, so are the values. expectations, I think—and we did much better through Some of the worst effects of zero-hours contracts are the recession than anyone thought we would. I am felt not where people have a high level of skills, but extremely proud that the Liverpool city region is doing where people have little other option. In the care sector, well—no one will catch me running it down. However, for example, workers often have a low level of skills and the biggest barrier to Merseyside’s development is our are often women, possibly later in their career, who people’s level of skills. We cannot afford to have employers already have little power in the workplace. When zero-hours who are not committed to investing in our people, not contracts are used in place of proper management, they just because it is bad for our people today and they do are left in a terribly vulnerable position. It leaves them, not get the opportunity to improve themselves, but in effect, begging for work. To me the indignity of because it stores up problems. If the Government are begging is not tolerable. It is not tolerable for people to not prepared to take this matter seriously because of beg on the street and it is not tolerable for people to beg concerns about the amount of money people will have for work. That is what is wrong with zero-hours contracts. in their pockets, I hope that they will take seriously the They risk far too much power being put on one side of long-term impact such contracts have on the prospects the table in discussion of the contract of employment. for a balanced economy. I wanted to ask the Secretary This is an economic issue, of course, but it is a question of State to include the impact on skills in his review and of how we want to live together and relate to each other consultation. He is no longer here, but I am sure that in society. the Minister will pass on the request. We are storing up some serious economic problems What is the solution? I am sure that it will come as no with zero-hours contracts. In the short term they involve great shock to the House to learn that I am extremely a cost because people’s income is likely to be reduced as supportive of the Labour policies outlined in the motion. a result of their underemployment. If they are wasting I am incredibly pleased that the leader of my party has time constantly trying to get more hours, as we heard in chosen to take such a stand on this issue. It is not fair to our survey, people have no time left to find another job, say that the previous Labour Government did not act to which might be a better job and might improve their protect vulnerable people in the work force. One of our prospects, which would, in turn, improve their and their greatest achievements was the national minimum wage. family’s capacity to spend money and keep our economy The regulations that implement it contain all kinds of going. Also, the insecurity that they are suffering means requirements to ensure that people earn a decent amount that in the short term they cannot commit or make of money. That is at the heart of this debate. I think that spending choices that would otherwise be helpful. we ought to be extremely proud of that institution that By the way, we heard examples of people who were protects people in our country. constantly told that they were going to get more hours However, it is right that we should go further, and it is than they did. That short-term impact of feeling that absolutely right that we should crack down on exclusivity they would have money coming in and then finding that and look at the people who work regular hours but they did not has a massive knock-on effect on the rest of whose employers are not prepared to commit and give them our economy, but it does not affect the whole economy a proper contract. In the short term, the report that equally or in the same way. The parts of the country colleagues and I produced suggests a code of practice, with a lower skills base are much more likely to suffer and that has been the first stage in our discussions with from this, so zero-hours contracts feed into the imbalanced employers and others. I think that we can get on with economy that we already have. that. If there are employers who want to discuss that There are long-term economic effects from such with us, as there are in Merseyside, we should do so. insecurity. I quoted earlier from one of the people in I also want briefly to pay tribute to Unison for its our report speaking about their inability to invest in work as a trade union and for its ethical care charter. It themselves, for example by going back to school, college is a shame that the right hon. Member for Bermondsey or university and making a long-term choice to improve and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) did not congratulate their prospects, which they felt unable to do because Southwark council—I speak with a slight interest, as I they did not know what was going on at work. Similarly, am a former deputy leader of the Southwark Labour 771 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 772

[Alison McGovern] speakers and have just dropped him back in. I do not want to hear Members shouting, “He hasn’t been here.” group—on adopting the stance that Unison did a good Secondly, I point out that some Members who have job in articulating what is needed in the care sector. We indicated that they wish to speak were not here for the know that in that sector zero-hours contracts are wrapped opening speeches. They will be dropped down to the up in a whole other agenda about ensuring that people bottom of the list. While I am on my feet, I remind have proper dignity and respect. I hope that Ministers Members that the debate will end at 3.40 pm, so if will focus their review on what is going on in the care Members do not make shorter speeches a time limit will sector. There might be whole swathes of the economy have to be introduced, and it will be quite tight. where there are fewer problems, but there most certainly are problems in the care sector, and I hope that Ministers Gordon Birtwistle: Thank you for clearing that up, will pay attention to that. Madam Deputy Speaker. I was here at the start of the debate and approached Mr Speaker to explain that I Mr Newmark: I have been listening to the hon. Lady would have to leave for a brief appointment that I could carefully but am still not clear where she is coming not change. He kindly said that that was fine and that I from. Is she objecting to the use of zero-hours contracts should come back, which I have done. or simply to the abuse that can occur when they are I will not delay the House for long, because the used? Secretary of State covered most of the concerns I have. I think that he covered the questions set out in the motion Alison McGovern: As I said earlier, there will be fully by agreeing to undertake a full consultation on the examples of employment—student employment is the issue in November and to come back to the House in a classic example—where there is no power imbalance few months with his conclusions and some proposals. and where we can look at the practice in an industry One aspect of the motion that I agree with relates to and say, “This could be okay.” I have said that from the exclusivity in zero-hours contracts. A good friend of outset and all the way through this debate. However, if mine who works as a security operator at Burnley the hon. Gentleman would like to read the report that college approached me a few weeks ago and said that he my colleagues and I put together, he will see quotes thought that his zero-hours contract was very good from people who spoke with us about their experience. because it suited his lifestyle and the way he wanted to If he is not concerned about the experience of those work. His objection was that it was exclusive. He would workers, I think he should be. have liked to have been able to have zero-hours contracts Mr Newmark rose— with numerous employers, because that would suit him down to the ground. He could work to suit his lifestyle Alison McGovern: I hope that the hon. Gentleman is and that of his family, because he found it difficult to rising to tell me that he is concerned. work for just one company that occasionally did not give him any work for five or six days, and that could be Mr Newmark: I totally agree with the hon. Lady that taken away, so it would benefit him greatly if he could we should be stamping out abuse, but I have listened have various zero-hours contracts with different companies. carefully to all Opposition Members who have spoken Zero-hours contracts have been used for years. My and it seems that their direction of travel is to cut wife worked as a personnel officer for a number of zero-hours contracts completely. The Government want Boots stores 20 years ago, and zero-hours contracts to stamp out the abuses, but does the hon. Lady—I will worked perfectly. People were called in as they were ask her once again—want to abolish zero-hours contracts needed and they were happy with what they got. It still completely? works like that. One of the benefits is for young people who are out of work. My new researcher in Burnley was Alison McGovern: I will end this here, because other working in a bar on a zero-hours contract because she Members wish to speak. That is not what I have said, could not get a proper job before she came to work for and it is not what other Members have said. me. Having come straight from university, she found In conclusion, zero-hours contracts are clearly a massive that getting into the habit of going to work under a issue for our economy. We have seen the Government zero-hours contract was absolutely brilliant, because it move from saying at the beginning of the year, “This got her into the ethos of going to work. She found that isn’t a problem and we don’t know what the statistics a really good start to her working life. It is really good. are saying” to saying now that it is an issue. I only wish Stacks of zero-hours contracts are given out in the pub that they could have done more. I absolutely applaud and entertainment trade, and most of the people who the motion. work in those industries are very pleased about it. Several hon. Members rose— One of the benefits of zero-hours contracts, as I have said, is that they get people used to getting up for Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Gordon work. Three years ago, Burnley was one of the top Birtwistle. 10 unemployment blackspots in the country. Unemployment was dreadful. Since then we have dropped to 159th place on the list and unemployment has dropped 2.26 pm from over 8% to 5.7%. I keep hearing that the north of Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Thank you, Madam England’s unemployment is climbing and that things Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.] are really bad. Burnley, which was an unemployment blackspot, is now a very prosperous town. A lot of Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. First, the hon. people who were working on zero-hours contracts have Gentleman was here for the opening of the debate but now transferred into full-time employment and are had to pop out briefly, so I held him back in the list of enjoying the jobs and roles that they are carrying out. 773 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 774

Ian Lavery: Will the hon. Gentleman give the figures take on loans and mortgages, know that there are for how many people are on zero-hours contracts in prospects of advancement in their work, and know that Burnley? their employer is investing in them and is therefore prepared to enhance their skills to make them even Gordon Birtwistle: I do not have those figures. I only more employable in future. All that is lost to people on know that I have spoken to a lot of people who were on zero-hours contracts. zero-hours contracts, were happy to be so rather than I understand the need for flexibility in the labour not working, and have now transferred to permanent market, but I am increasingly concerned that zero-hours contracts that are part-time or even full-time. The figures contracts are being used as a tool by managers who are for Burnley show how successful they have been. That too lazy to look ahead. Sometimes it is not the case that has been a boost for the town and for the people who they do not know what is ahead. For example, last work there. Monday, I was with a constituent who told me about I accept that, as the Secretary of State says, there are her care workers who are on these kinds of contracts. problems that need to be resolved. Those problems have They are called into work in the morning until lunchtime, always been with us; they have not started in the past called in again in the afternoon until teatime, and then three years. The Secretary of State is facing the issue called in again in the evening. The employer’s contract head on, unlike Labour Members, who for 13 years did is with a health board. I do not believe that he does not absolutely zero about it. In fact, their zero attention to know for how many hours he is contracted to undertake zero hours was quite marked. He is asking for a full work for that health board. Therefore, I do not understand report and will come back to this House in a few why he cannot properly utilise his work force and take months to give us his conclusions. the opportunity to give those individuals more security I hope that the problems are resolved and that zero-hours of employment. contracts continue. I would not like them to end, because Some Members have drawn a distinction between that would take away the choice that working people zero-hours contracts that are normal and those that are have. They can work zero-hours, part-time or full-time, exploitative. I do not believe that there is such a distinction, and it is really important that they have that choice. because potentially every such contract is exploitative. However, there are problems with companies taking When an employer is really squeezed, he or she has the advantage of these contracts, and we need to sort that flexibility to say to someone, “There’s no work for you out. I am delighted that the Secretary of State has taken today. I took you on on certain conditions and you that on and look forward to seeing his conclusions in accepted that you were on a zero-hours contract. I the near future. could probably offer you 12 hours a week, but I’m sorry that’s not available any longer”. Then people can sit for Several hon. Members rose— days or weeks with no work. They may have taken on Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. the contract only because the employer said, “Normally Having considered how much time is left for the debate, this will be what’s available to you” even though it was a I am now going to set a time limit. I have accounted for zero-hours contract. Those contracts do become every Member in the Chamber who has indicated that exploitative. When the Secretary of State is looking at they want to speak, and I am setting the limit at seven the way forward, if there cannot be a total ban—for minutes starting with the next speaker. Obviously, if which, in certain circumstances, a good argument could there are lots of interventions I might have to review well be made—we should at least start to look at how it that in order to make sure that every Member gets at can become the exception rather than, as I suspect, least some time during the debate. increasingly the norm. Several aspects have been well highlighted in this 2.32 pm debate. First, these contracts should not be exclusive because this should not be a one-way relationship. It Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): In the interests has been said that it suits both partners, but very often of other people being allowed to speak, I will not take it does not. I think of what has been said by people on any interventions because it would be unfair at this zero-hours contracts who have come to see me. The stage, although I am usually quite happy to do so. contract is operated by the employer and the employee Let me first say that I do not know how extensive is afraid to say, “I’m not coming in tomorrow because it zero-hours contracts are in Northern Ireland. Indeed, doesn’t suit me” because they probably accepted the the debate so far indicates that we do not know the contract in the first place only because they were desperate quantum of what we are dealing with. Anecdotally, for work. At least, as suggested by the Opposition, there however, I am becoming more and more aware of should be no exclusivity. That would be one way in the problem because people come to tell me about how which an employee could say, “I’ve got other options they find themselves being squeezed by this form of open to me.” employment, whether it is parents complaining about Secondly, where zero-hours contracts operate in the the conditions for their children who are going into jobs public sector—many are found in charities and employers for the first time or care workers on contracts in the who work on public sector contracts—there should be public sector. much more rigour about the conditions attached to Government Members have said that for many people those who are employed in firms that win public this situation is acceptable. In many cases that is only procurement contracts. That would squeeze out an awful because there is no alternative. It is not that people want lot of these contracts. and welcome this with open arms; it has huge consequences Thirdly, if it is shown that an employee has had for them. They do not have security of employment. regular work over a period of time even though they They do not have what many of us have been fortunate are on a zero-hours contract, the employer cannot to have during our working lives, whereby people can really argue, “I need that flexibility”, because the 775 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 776

[Sammy Wilson] I believe that an outright ban would be neither helpful nor practical. Labour is clear on that. The hon. employee has had regular hours already. That should be Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) seemed to be another area where we can start to squeeze out these under the illusion that we were calling for an outright contracts. ban, but that is not the case. A ban on zero-hours Zero-hours contracts are not only bad for employees contracts could lead many less scrupulous employers but bad for the economy. If employers themselves thought simply to introduce one-hour contracts. We know that about it, they should realise that there is no better way that is a realistic possibility, as the rise of zero-hours to have a work force that is loyal to them than by contracts seems to be linked to the closure of loopholes treating them right. These contracts, especially when by the introduction of temporary and agency workers they are used in an exploitative way, do not treat employees regulations. right and therefore have an impact on the quality of the As I have said on previous occasions, the issue is not work force. In the longer run, as the hon. Member for zero-hours contracts, which have always been around, Wirral South (Alison McGovern) said, what employer but the massive increase in what seems to be exploitation is going to invest in their work force if they treat them as of workers, by which I do not mean employees, because people who can be taken on and disposed of when they the people on these contracts are not classified as such. feel like it? Paul Farrelly: My hon. Friend will remember from 2.39 pm her time at the GMB—which, to correct the record from earlier, represents Asda employees in my constituency—that Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): I am delighted many agency workers find it hard to get mortgages, that my hon. Friend the shadow Business Secretary has because they are not considered to be full-time employees. secured this Opposition day debate, which is about an If someone on a short-term, zero-hours contract is issue that many hon. Friends and I have been campaigning asked whether they are a full-time employee and they on for months, if not years. answer honestly, does my hon. Friend agree that they, In July, as we have heard, I led a debate in Westminster too, may find it difficult to get a mortgage at a time Hall on zero-hours contracts. I do not intend to condense when mortgages are far more difficult to get hold of? that rather longer speech today. In it, I referred to individual cases in care homes and explored the wide- Julie Elliott: I agree. In fact, those people face difficulties ranging use of these contracts in the NHS, including for in getting not just a mortgage, but a rental agreement, tens of thousands of nurses and midwives. Instead, I because they are not classified as an employee. intend to take a broader approach and look at what the We need to take a more holistic approach to reforming widespread use of these contracts says about our labour the labour market. We need to understand that zero-hours market. contracts are just one of many ways that people in this I am pleased to note the presence of Conservative country are having their rights eroded and their living and Liberal Democrat colleagues, because in my standards squeezed. Energy costs, food costs, rail fares Westminster Hall debate in July I was dismayed to see and private rental costs are hitting people’s pockets on not a single Conservative or Liberal Democrat Back the one hand, and unfair working practices are making Bencher in attendance. Although the 17 Labour MPs them feel insecure for their incomes on the other. who spoke led to an interesting and worthwhile debate, The Labour party, like everyone in Britain, wants to I have attended many Labour party meetings in my time see economic growth, but there is more than a lingering and the debate was a missed opportunity for real cross-party sense that sustained economic growth, when it comes, dialogue. will not halt this cost of living crisis, because rail fares It cannot be that not a single person in coalition will still go up, the price of food will still soar and the constituencies is employed on zero-hours contracts. In cost of rent will continue to go through the roof. The fact, unlike the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy hundreds of thousands of Britons who are on zero-hour Opperman), who has said that he has not come across contracts, temporary contracts or the minimum wage anybody in rural Northumberland who is unhappy with will not see the fruits of that growth. these contracts, I have met such people and they are out there. Charlie Elphicke: Will the hon. Lady give way? I have spoken to many people who are on these contracts. Some are happy with them, but the vast Julie Elliott: No. I am going to carry on so that others majority are not. We should all be concerned that this have a chance to speak. country essentially has a large pool of workers living Many lost their jobs or were forced to accept stagnant permanently on call, without guaranteed incomes, who wages during the downturn, but they are seeing none of do not know whether they will be able to pay their bills. the proceeds of growth during the upturn. Those in We cannot sit by while workers on zero-hours contracts work are earning, on average, £1,500 a year less than earn, according to research by the Resolution Foundation, they were in 2010, while others have no choice but to 40% less than those on regular contracts. put up with zero-hours contracts. Meanwhile, those out A Labour Government would ban employers from of work have been left on the failing Work programme. insisting that zero-hours workers be available when The Institute for Fiscal Studies has calculated that there is no guarantee of work; stop zero-hours contracts for every pound spent paying the living wage, the Treasury that require workers to work exclusively for one business; saves 50p through not needing to pay tax credits and and end the misuse of these contracts where employees benefits. The Resolution Foundation has calculated that are, in practice, working regular hours over a sustained if everyone receiving the minimum wage received the period. living wage, there would be a £2.2 billion net saving, 777 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 778 comprised of higher income tax and national insurance first hand how often the regulations and red tape that receipts. There is growing evidence that living wages have been designed for, and often with, big business boost productivity, motivation and performance and make it harder to create new businesses and new jobs. reduce the leaver and absentee rates, thereby offsetting Nobody wants to see exploitation. It may suit Opposition the cost of the higher wage. The people who reject this Members to claim that we are living in a dark age of analysis are the same people who said that the national Victorian exploitation, but that is not the picture that minimum wage would lead to vastly higher levels of resonates—we are not. I welcome the fact that the unemployment, but they were wrong—it simply led to Government have launched a consultation, and the higher wages. Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation I have welcomed the Government’s review of zero-hours and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks contracts, but I think it is wholly insufficient. Indeed, (Michael Fallon) and his colleagues have been very parliamentary questions tabled by my hon. Friend the clear that we want to stamp out abuse. My hon. Friend Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) have found out the Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) intervened that the Government have allocated all of three officials earlier to highlight the important difference between to the consultation. They are holding informal discussions stamping out the abuse and exploitation of zero-hours with stakeholders without any formal calls for evidence contracts—which may well go on; indeed, I have no or consultation. The irony that these three officials are doubt it does in some cases—and saying that zero-hours looking into zero-hours contracts on a part-time basis contracts themselves are a bad thing and should be should be lost on no one. banned. I welcome the fact that the Minister himself is Reforming zero-hours contracts and increasing the an ardent and passionate advocate of the importance of number of people on the living wage is not just the right flexibility in the work force, and that he is bringing that thing to do for hard-working people; it will also be good zeal to the two Departments he represents in order to for the economy. Instead of shares for rights, we need to drive and support the Government’s growth agenda. improve working conditions and boost wages. It is an I say that for three principal reasons. We are living injustice too far to expect people to live a life of permanent through a profound revolution in the world of work uncertainty, and I urge the Government to take a small and in the economy. Call it the new economy or the step that will make a big difference. innovation economy—the truth is that many more people in this country are now working in small businesses and 2.46 pm are self-employed, and the projections for the next George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): We all know decade or two suggest that the numbers will grow. Small that a job is the building block of a decent society and businesses and entrepreneurial, innovative businesses a decent economy, that the creation of jobs is the most demand far greater flexibility than the bigger businesses urgent imperative that this economy faces at present, that we have relied on in the past. and that holding a job is the key to the dignity and More women and students are coming into the work respect that we want everyone to experience and that force. I recently visited the maths department of a we want to spread to those who, sadly, have not university and during the break, there were 40 start-up experienced it to date. The appalling debt crisis that we companies in the foyer that were run not by graduates face and the crisis in youth unemployment that we of the maths department, but by undergraduates. The inherited from the previous Government make this students of today are entrepreneurial and are starting mission more urgent and vital than ever. The creation of businesses. We need to embrace that new world. We can new jobs is, and should be, at the heart of the mission of only trade our way out of the debt crisis. To do that, we this Parliament. must rediscover our buccaneering spirit of enterprise We all agree that long-term employment with a stable and entrepreneurship as we take on the global forces of employer and the investment in training that goes with competition. We will not succeed with a work force and it is the model to which we aspire. Indeed, in most cases a labour market that are shackled by the old ways. that is the model that prevails. The proudest achievement My second reason for supporting the Government on of my life before coming to Parliament was helping to this matter is that zero-hours contracts have received create six new businesses that now employ more than strong support from senior and respected voices in the 500 people in the life science sector. I agree with a worlds of business and human resources. The Chartered number of my colleagues that the creation of jobs is one Institute of Personnel and Development has said that of the most important things we have done. zero-hours contracts can benefit employees as well as This crisis reminds us that the private sector is the employers. The Institute of Directors has referred to only sustainable basis for the prosperity on which we all zero-hours contracts as a rely. It is the private sector that creates the tax revenues “vital tool in our economic recovery”. that fund schools, hospitals and the public sector, which employ others. One of the lessons of the past 14 years John Cridland has said that if we had not had zero-hours and the previous Government’s mismanagement of the contracts, economy must be to restore that truth and remind “unemployment would have topped 3 million”. ourselves that private sector job growth and business My final reason for supporting what the Government growth are absolutely key to our prosperity. are doing is that it is working. The Government’s labour We need to make it easier for youngsters in particular market reforms have had a stunning impact on our rate and others to get into work, and we need to encourage of job creation. There are 872,000 more jobs in the flexibility for the modern work force, including women, economy than there were at the time of the last election. students and part-time workers. That is why I have [Interruption.] Opposition Members are shaking their recently called for a new deal for new business. Having heads. They do not like it, but it is true. Some 1.4 million worked in the creation of small businesses, I know at private sector jobs have been created since the last 779 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 780

[George Freeman] about students. I do not understand why anybody would want a job in which they were guaranteed absolutely no election. Three jobs have been created in the private work. I have never met anybody who wants that. I sector for every one job that has been lost. This country listened to the Minister carefully, but I still do not is creating jobs at twice the rate of the United States of understand that point. There is clearly a difference America—a market that we have traditionally looked at between people who are trapped on zero-hours contracts and envied its rate of job creation. and are desperate for more work but cannot get it, and Let us stamp out exploitation. Let us criminalise the people who value a bit of flexibility. The problem is that exploitation of zero-hours contracts where we can, but zero-hours contracts used to be a stepping-stone into let us not shackle the flexibility that we need to create better-paid, more secure work. It is becoming increasingly the new businesses and jobs on which we will all rely. clear that they are no longer a stepping-stone. I was proud to stand alongside the Hovis workers in 2.52 pm my constituency when they went on strike because Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): The hon. Member for 28 workers who had had full-time contracts were replaced Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) says that what the by people on zero-hours contracts. They stood alongside Government are doing is working and that the picture one another and said that they would not accept two that the Opposition are painting does not resonate people doing the same job at different rates of pay and around the country. If he had listened to the speeches with different levels of security. That sort of two-tier of the shadow Secretary of State and my hon. Friends work force is the thin end of the wedge and is bad for in this debate and if he had heard the debate secured everyone. I was proud that Premier Foods accepted that by my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central argument, stepped in and reversed the situation. Premier (Julie Elliott) earlier this year, he would know that Foods has gone from being a buzzword for bad employment what the Government are doing is not working and to being a buzzword for how to take action to become a that a picture of misery is unfolding in communities good employer. I am proud that that happened in my around the country, including in my own community in constituency. Wigan. Ian Lavery: Is it not the case that a number of Hovis I do not intend to rehearse that picture, because the workers were made redundant and that other people shadow Secretary of State described it eloquently. Suffice were taken on on zero-hours contracts to save the it to say that over the past 12 months, I have represented company money? low-paid women who work in the care sector, which has been mentioned in this debate, countless young people, and adult men and women with families to support who Lisa Nandy: Indeed. I am grateful to all the hon. are trapped on zero-hours contracts. Does it surprise Members who supported those workers and me. That the Minister that this week, the British Red Cross situation reflects something that is happening in their launched its first ever emergency appeal to feed families constituencies as well. in the UK? The picture is unfolding, but we have a The Hovis strike was not just about zero-hours contracts. Government who will not take action to tackle the As my hon. Friends have made clear, there is a growing problem. Other hon. Members have spoken about the casualisation of the work force in this country that is problems of low pay, insecurity in the workplace and corrosive and is deeply worrying to all of us. As the deskilling. shadow Secretary of State said, we have one of the most I want the Minister to know that there is an anxiety deregulated labour markets in Europe. Many more people that lives with people who are on zero-hours contracts, are now in temporary work and low-paid jobs. Clamping not just from week to week, but from day to day, about down on zero-hours contracts and their exploitation is whether they will be able to feed their children, about just one part of what we must do. I hope that the whether they will be able to pick their kids up from Minister understands that. school and about whether they will be able to arrange This problem affects young people disproportionately. child care. That anxiety is corrosive and devastating. We know from history that when young people are Alongside it, there is an indignity and humiliation that trapped in situations in which they cannot advance runs through people’s lives when they do not know themselves or their families, it causes hopelessness, despair whether they will be able to provide for their families, and anger, and the associated problems that go with whether children or elderly relatives, or even themselves. those feelings. We owe young people better than that. I People are being put in a situation in which they are would like to hear what the Minister proposes to do powerless and that is wrong. urgently for those young people. Although I welcome the Secretary of State’s tone and What we are saying is not anti-business. We have his promise to do something about the problem, too heard much about the employers who are using the often in the years before I came to this place I heard flexibility that zero-hours contracts provide to exploit consultations used as an excuse not to do something. I the work force, but there are many employers who are hope that is not the case with this consultation. In any not doing that. The shadow Secretary of State gave the case, there is an urgency to this problem because many example of Asda, which is taking a stand against such families up and down the country simply cannot wait. treatment of the work force. It is essential that the UK I will make a few brief points in the short time that I leads the way in showing that things can be levelled up, have remaining. First, there has been a lot of debate not levelled down, for the benefit of everybody. Otherwise, about whether zero-hours contracts should be banned employers such as Asda who are making decent choices, outright and whether that is practical. It has been said doing the right thing and investing in their communities that in some circumstances, zero-hours contracts are will be at a disadvantage and we will be tilting the good for people. I do not really understand the argument playing field. 781 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 782

Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): Will the hon. from the Secretary of State, the elderly want flexibility Lady give way? in employment, for example, as do young students or young mothers who have child care and do not necessarily Lisa Nandy: I will not, I am afraid, because many of have natural fixed hours. Zero-hours contracts can suit my hon. Friends have sat through this debate and are a number of people in our economy. I listened carefully desperate to speak. to what Opposition Members said, and it is important As many hon. Members have said, this problem to have robust employment protections. As we heard affects entire sectors. We should be very concerned from the Secretary of State, and as we will no doubt about that because, as I have said, such contracts are soon hear from the Minister, the Government are beginning not a stepping-stone. I am particularly worried about a consultation to look into the practices raised by the care sector and home help. This problem affects the Labour Members. I oppose such practices as strongly as low-paid people—mainly women—who work in that they do. sector. It affects their children, their parents and their The previous Government did nothing to investigate whole family. It also affects us, because if we value that how zero-hours contracts were used when they were in profession so little that we allow this practice to be used power. Is any Member aware of an investigation into across the country, we allow people to be given no that issue during Labour’s 13 years in power? In fact, money for travel time between appointments and we according to the Office for National Statistics, in 2000 allow packed rotas that mean that older people get there were 225,000 people on zero-hours contracts. 15 minutes to have all their care needs met, what does that mean for our parents, our grandparents and our Charlie Elphicke: Has my hon. Friend also noticed neighbours? I hope that the Minister will listen to the that the Opposition raised the issue of blacklisting, voices of people around this country who are devastated about which they also did nothing whatsoever when in by what they are seeing. government? Finally, the Secretary of State spoke a lot about Mr Newmark: My hon. Friend is right, and I point getting redress and taking on employers, and about a the finger at several Labour-run councils in London code of conduct. In truth, however, it is incredibly that use zero-hours contracts: Tower Hamlets, Ealing, difficult for someone who is being threatened with no Merton, Hounslow and Newham. Those councils do more work to take action. Have we learned nothing not provide guaranteed hours or any such thing. Are from the blacklisting scandals that my hon. Friend the Labour councils stopping the use of zero-hours Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) has done contracts? Not a bit of it. The Government, however, so much to uncover and condemn? When Ministers say have helped the low paid by taking more than 2 million that we want to give people the ability to take action on people out of tax altogether, and cutting taxation for that issue, why are they restricting access to legal advice another 25 million people. That is what the Government and hiking up employment tribunal fees? should be doing—encouraging jobs and protecting those It strikes me that the Government are frightened of on low pay. challenge, and they are standing together with their As we have heard, the Government have been doing a friends in the business community to stop people who good job trying to create jobs in the private sector, but have everything to lose from being able to take action. we must protect people against the abuses to which Whatever the Government do, the Minister must Opposition Members referred. We heard wonderful statistics understand that rights are no good without the means from my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk, to enforce them, and we need concrete action to ensure who mentioned the number of jobs created in the they can be enforced. private sector. I repeat: 1 million net jobs have been created, even though, as we heard in Prime Minister’s 3pm questions, Labour Members predicted 1 million job Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): I am delighted losses. The Government have been doing a good job. to follow the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) and As someone who is a champion of women, and the I have a feeling we are in danger of violently agreeing founder of Women2Win, I note there are now more with one another—I do not think there is any Government women in work today than ever before in our history, Member who does not agree that we should be stamping which is good. As the hon. Member for Wigan said, out abuses, and as we heard, the Government are beginning however, we must also protect those women who need a consultation to look into that issue. However, as we flexible hours from abuses. I believe and am confident heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk that the Government will look into the abuses to which (George Freeman), it is the responsibility of the Government she referred, which we do not approve of or support. to turn things around—particularly given the mess we There are, I think, about half a million job vacancies, inherited in 2010—and to create growth and jobs. As we some of which are on zero-hours contracts. That is a heard from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister good thing and gives people the opportunity to get on during Prime Minister’s questions, we have created more the employment ladder. Overall, I believe the Government than 1.5 million new private sector jobs, including 1 are doing a good job. Statistics are coming out, and in million net new jobs. Last week the IMF turned around the past week alone, British manufacturers have said its criticism of the UK from a month earlier, and said that they have seen the strongest growth on record, that compared with the rest of the world, the UK is breaking the figure for every quarter since 1989. That doing pretty well. Growth is returning, which is good proves that the Chancellor has been rebalancing the news, and jobs are being created. economy. That is the challenge we inherited from the I do not think any Labour Member said that they previous Government. We over-relied on the financial completely oppose zero-hours contracts, which is because services sector, and the Chancellor is rebalancing the an economy needs flexibility on both sides. As we heard economy. 783 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 784

Caroline Dinenage: I congratulate my hon. Friend on Caroline Dinenage: Will the hon. Gentleman give a fantastic and dynamic speech. Does he agree that way? manufacturers need a dynamic and flexible workplace to flourish? I speak as someone who owns a manufacturing Ian Lucas: I will not because my constituent’s story company. Those who may not have previously been in needs to be told. He told me not to use his name or the employment also need a dynamic, flexible workplace so name of his employers because he is scared he will get as to consider getting into the working world. sacked if I speak publicly. He had been employed for more than three years and was on a contract for 10 hours Mr Newmark: My hon. Friend is right, particularly per week. He normally worked 36 hours per week—he about small manufacturers who cannot necessarily take worked those hours regularly, but invariably worked for on fixed costs. I was in business for 20 years and know it more than 30 hours. However, because his employers is tough out there. It is still tough for many manufacturers would not give him a contract for more than 10 hours, who are working with low margins. They cannot take he could not get a secure tenancy or apply for a mortgage. on fixed costs, so zero-hours contracts are a good thing He had to ring up on Friday evenings to find out what that suits them and people in that environment who are hours he would be working the following week. That looking for flexible hours. The services sector, too, has was the impact of a zero-hours contract on that individual. had its strongest growth in 16 years. I was pleased at the tone of the Secretary of State’s Overall, zero-hours contracts have a role in society. I remarks—he is a reasonable man—but my parents told have not heard a single Opposition Member condemn me that I should always judge people by their actions, absolutely zero-hours contracts, although they all mentioned not by their words. In government, the Liberal Democrats the abuses. The Government are doing their bit to and the Tories have taken away the means for employees ensure that we remain ever vigilant against the abuse of to protect themselves from exploitation. They have doubled zero-hours contracts, and I applaud their initiative to the qualification period for people going to employment take forward that consultation to tackle those abuses as tribunals and introduced a £1,200 fee for going to a soon as possible. tribunal. That is more than twice the median weekly earnings of individuals in my constituency. That, and 3.7 pm not the flannel, tells us all we need to know about the attitude of the Government parties. They are not about Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): I am pleased to follow fairness for the work force or a balanced relationship; the hon. Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark), because they are about the worst kind of employers exploiting it gives me an immediate opportunity to rebut the bulk employees. of his remarks and give him a reality check. Far from the blue skies that appear to be above his constituency I was astonished that the Secretary of State referred and those of Government Members, yesterday a factory to our automotive sector in relation to zero-hours contracts. in Wrexham closed and 231 people lost their jobs. In He seemed to suggest that zero-hours contracts in that 2010-11, the median gross weekly earnings for a male in context were analogous the exploitation of workers my constituency fell from £530.80 to £435.50, and for a who do not have trade union representation. The fact is woman from £416.60 to £364.30. That was the immediate that contracts are negotiated by trade unions in the impact on the earnings of my constituents of the first automotive and aerospace sectors to introduce flexibility, year of the Conservative and Liberal Democrat so that there is a balanced relationship between employer Government coming to office. That is what I call a cost and employee. The key point is that those contracts are of living crisis. negotiated and agreed to—the employees who take them on do so voluntarily, and they are normally negotiated The Conservative party also introduced a VAT increase, through their unions. supported by their Liberal Democrat comrades—before the election they said they were not going to do that—which Trade unions are vilified and attacked every week by imposed an immediate financial burden on individuals the Prime Minister at the Dispatch Box, but, as the in my constituency, whatever their income. That is the Minister knows, they are an integral part of the Automotive reality of the cost of living crisis that the Government Council and the Aerospace Growth Partnership. The parties are imposing. automotive and aerospace industries are two of our most successful industries. That is the model we want—of We are debating zero-hours contracts today, rather industry and employers working together with employees. than five years ago, because the increase in the number of those contracts is a response to the massive inequality Employees should have rights. Warm words are all of bargaining power that now exists between employers right, and it is all right for the Government to say they and employees, and the fact that employees are desperate sympathise with people who have to manage such for any type of work. The worst employers exploit them arrangements, but if they take away their rights of because those people are under major financial pressures. redress, they can do nothing about their situation. I will not take any lectures from Government Members Let us look at the Government’s actions, not their on running a business. I ran my own business for four words. I hope their actions improve, and that their years, employing 10 people, before I became an MP in inquiries and investigations lead to concrete progress. 2001. I know that it is best to treat employees with To date, they have removed rights from people in vulnerable respect and work with them. If employers are flexible situations. They should not be proud of that, but it tells with employees, employees will be flexible with employers. my constituents where the Government stand. Unfortunately, with zero-hours contracts, we have the worst type of exploitation. Employers exploit the financial 3.14 pm weakness of individuals who are desperate for work and Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): It is a pleasure to to secure any type of employment. follow the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), if A constituent came to see me— only to rebut so much of what he says. My constituents 785 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 786 in Dover and Deal are understandably concerned about require to get a fair settlement. That is what the Government zero-hours contracts. I represent a port. Many in the need to focus on, which they are doing. I welcome the ports and maritime sectors are, and have been for many action that the Secretary of State and the Conservative years, on zero-hours contracts and have informal working members of the departmental team are taking. arrangements with their employers. Many of my constituents work in social care and frequently raise 3.19 pm their concerns about zero-hours contracts. I have told Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I visited a them that I will raise those issues in the House of constituent who had initially presented with a problem Commons so that Ministers and the Government are about paying her rent. She was in arrears and was aware of them. worried about what was happening. However, the reason There is a big difference between the Government for her problem—the kind of work she did—quickly and the Opposition. Labour Members have sat around emerged. She was a care worker on a zero-hours contracts, since 1997, 2001 or whenever doing precisely nothing but did not get flexibility. She had to wait for a text whatever about zero-hours contracts. Now they are in message—this is a new form of having to go down to opposition, they suddenly raise the issue. Someone has the docks and standing in a queue—to see if she was raised it with them, and a few weeks later they have going to have work. In that week, she had been given come to the House to say, “It is right that action is taken two evenings of work at very short notice—this creates where things have gone wrong.” It takes a special cheek substantial problems for people’s ability to plan. for the Opposition to come to the House and say, “We We have to address the underlying issues. Why is didn’t do anything about it for 13 years, but, right now, this happening in care, which is such an important we expect immediate action.” That is not the right way area of work? There is knock-on effect to the quality to do things. They are politicising what is an important of care. If people do not know until the last minute and delicate issue for many of our constituents, which is whether they are going to be working, the recipient of highly unhelpful. care has no idea who will be visiting them. That is My constituents have raised serious issues. Not every important to the quality of care and to the security of zero-hours contract is an abuse. Many people work for those receiving care. Those who suffer from Alzheimer’s 30 or 40 hours a week on zero-hours contracts. As the find it particularly disturbing and distressing for carers hon. Member for Wrexham said, they have problems to be changed all the time. The issue is broader than the getting mortgages and tenancies because they do not employment conditions of my constituents; it is about have that baseline. I share those concerns and hope that quality of care. the Government will consider carefully what can be Why is this happening? It did not used to happen. It done for people in that position. They have legitimate did not happen in my city when most home care was concerns and action ought to be taken. carried out by those directly employed by the council. A Some people are preyed upon by their employers—they lot of home care was put out to tender in my city under are given no hours, or given informal hours, and cannot the council run by the Liberal Democrats and the plan their budgeting from week to week. That is unfair Scottish National party. It decided to save money and and it is right that the Government are looking at boasted to the local newspapers about how it had saved exclusivity. Frankly, those people are self-employed and the council tax payer £2 million, but at what cost and should be allowed to seek work elsewhere. That would whose cost? Companies put in cheap bids to show how be a fair and just employer-employee relationship. The we could all save money and they now have to make up Government were right to look at that in the review in that money by how they employ their employees. the summer. It would be right to focus on it in the This is not an accident, nor is it abuse by bad employers; consultation and to take action on so-called exclusivity it is a structural issue. I am concentrating on care, but I clauses. am sure there are other areas where this is happening. If It is important that we understand our constituents’ we want this to change, we have to be much more concerns. When they come to our surgeries, they tell us honest about the cost of care and how we are going to that they are worried that if they raise the matter with pay for it. It is not enough to provide care on a shoestring. their employer, they might not have a job by the end of I emphasise that I am talking about Scotland. People the day. I have had many such cases, which I view with sometimes think we have cracked the care problem considerable concern. It is right that we work to rebalance because we have free personal care, but councils such as the situation. The flipside, as all hon. Members know, is mine have only been able to manage that process—they that, for many people, zero-hours contracts have the were given no extra money to help them do it—by flexibility that works for their lives. How people live contracting out. The contractors have set up these kinds their lives and secure the flexibility they need in their of employment arrangements to make it work. It is not employment is an important consideration. good for the people who need care, it is not good for The Government need to focus on achieving the employees and it is not good for the rest of us. important flexibility that many people need, but also on The situation is getting worse. It is easy to say that ensuring that people are not preyed on and exploited. I there were always some of these kinds of contracts, but am a Conservative MP representing a constituency a large department store in my city was employing one where there is a lot of deprivation and where many of my constituents on a part-time basis for many years. people are not well paid. An important part of the It was part time and that suited her. What did not suit Conservative party is that it believes in protecting people. her, however, was being told, “Sorry, we cannot offer Yes, enterprise and profit are important, but there is a you this kind of contract anymore; we can only offer difference between profit and profiteering. We need to you a zero-hours contract where you may have to work ensure that people who have unequal bargaining power in the evening, at weekends or on Sundays.” That was can ensure they have the protection of the law they not going to help her with her child care. When she 787 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 788

[Sheila Gilmore] That is the difference between the Government and the Opposition: the barrister can make £10,000 a day or an argued the point and said, “I can’t do this,” the response hour, but the people we are representing are not even was, “Well, go and find another job. There are plenty of making the minimum wage. people who can.” I wanted to refer to a number of things, but obviously This is a changing employment pattern that has been I have not got time, so I will briefly consider how people getting worse, and I do not think it is altogether accidental. actually manage on these zero-hours contracts. I am It fits the narrative of the Government’s welfare reform talking about people living in the real world, struggling, programme. During the passage of the Welfare Reform perhaps not earning the minimum wage, getting up in Bill, there was much waxing lyrical from the Government the morning wanting the best for their families—don’t Benches about the joys of mini-jobs—small jobs that we all want the best for our families, to put food on the people would be able to do because of the structure of table and to give our kids the up-to-date clothing, like the new benefit. That fits very well with zero-hours everyone else in the school yard? Let us put ourselves in contracts, because the state will be subsidising employers the position of somebody on a zero-hours contract. by making it easier for them to give people mini-jobs Perhaps both parents are on such contracts. How on with zero-hours contracts and they will hopefully be earth can they plan a month ahead, two months ahead, able to survive because their income will be topped up. a year ahead? Forget that if they were in full employment In the debate there has been an illusion about the with a proper contract, they would have employment choices that people are able to make. Self-employed protection—forget that just for a moment and look at contractors have the freedom to choose to work when the social side; they are running out of money on a they want to, usually on a pretty good hourly rate. weekly or monthly basis because they do not have the There is a huge difference between choosing to work in hours; they are getting into debt, borrowing money that way and it being the only choice an employee has. from friends or Wonga or taking out a payday loan, Having control over working hours and a working because that is the only way they can make ends meet. pattern is very different from being forced to work. That is what is happening with people on zero-hours There is no choice if it is the only work on offer and it is contracts. They are looking for alternative sources of the employer, not the individual, who decides when to income, for extra employment, but many firms that work—that is a major difference. It can be very nice for employ people on zero-hours contracts state that the individuals to be flexible if they have a choice about person must be available 24/7, so they cannot get alternative their working arrangements. That is not what so many employment; they are stuck with it, even if it means an of my constituents now face. hour a week. If someone cannot make ends meet, wants to work, is not unemployed, being on a zero-hours contract, and is trying to do the best they can for their 3.25 pm family, surely that is a cause of much anxiety. Imagine Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): The statistics put forward being in that situation. It causes health problems and by Government Members on the use of zero-hours then more problems along the line. Some on zero-hours contracts are amazing. It would appear that zero-hours contracts have no access to other forms of finance, not contracts are absolutely fine, with just a few abuses that having contingency funds like other, more wealthy people need to be ironed out—absolute nonsense. Zero-hours further up the social ladder, so they find it very difficult. contracts are an outrageous abuse for tens of thousands, And because they have no guarantee of employment, even up to 1 million people. One or two people think they find it difficult to access legalised credit. This that they are okay and that it suits them. This is the causes all sorts of social mayhem. difference between the two sides of the House. Opposition David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): The hon. Gentleman Members believe there is a lot of abuse; coalition Members makes his case with passion, but does he not agree that believe the opposite. They believe that zero-hours contracts in sections of society zero-hours contracts are making are fine, as long as they iron out one or two abuses— an important contribution to the lives of people who absolute rubbish. That is not the case. I must live on a value the flexibility they provide? I am keenly interested different planet. in this subject. From recent radio interviews and vox We have heard this afternoon about fantastic employment pop interviews, it seems to me that young people, in figures, so many private sector jobs being created and particular, really benefit from them. I understand that the demise of the public sector, which is apparently there are genuine concerns about instances of abuse, great news. That has not happened where I live. What but for many people they provide a flexible way for we have seen in my area is a reduction in unemployment, them to pursue their career aspirations. but with more people on zero-hours and part-time Ian Lavery: Of course, I understand that, but in contracts and a huge increase in people who cannot reality, there are now more than 1 million people—probably make ends meet. Looking at employment figures on a lot more—on zero-hours contracts, and the vast majority their own is therefore unacceptable. of them are being abused. It is not the other way Flexible working is an employers’ utopia: back to the around, as the Government seem to be suggesting. I bad old days of queuing up at the factory gates, the have not met a single person—I kid you not—who shipyard or the pit and asking to be employed for the wants a contract for no hours. People who want a day. As has been explained, even that does not happen contract want to work. That is the reality of it. The anymore. Instead, people receive a text or a phone call same as any MP, I have met many people, listened to to find out whether they will have employment. That is their complaints and had the discussion in my surgeries, a little different from what the hon. Member for Hexham and I have not met anybody who wants a contract for (Guy Opperman) said about being a barrister waiting zero hours. Why would anyone want such a contract? It to see where his next £10,000 an hour will come from. is implausible. I cannot understand it. 789 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 790

Obviously, zero-hours contracts suit some people on criticism, because they are missing the explosion of the basis that they will get employment for a week a zero-hours contracts in recent years and the month, but that is the few; the vast majority of people underemployment that we are seeing across everyone’s in the workplace on zero-hours contracts suffer greatly constituency. socially. These are people at the very bottom of the Zero-hours contracts are not a new phenomenon—we ladder and extremely desperate for employment. At have mentioned that already. They work for some times in my constituency, 28 people have been applying employees—let us put that on the record; of course they for each job. Those people would be delighted to have a do—but let us be clear, and say time and again, that the zero-hours contract, if they thought they would get exploitative nature of such contracts has to be dealt some employment, but zero-hours contracts take them with. That is what we need to do in the House today—and, off the unemployment register and basically massage indeed, in anything the Government bring forward. It is the employment figures. There is an argument for outlawing, also not hard to see why zero-hours contracts are attractive outright, zero-hours contracts. Government Members to employers. They allow for maximum flexibility.However, have said that there are some abuses, but I say we should in many cases, we are seeing the transfer of business get rid of the mass abuse and deal with the problem risk—this is an important point—in a difficult economy entirely. from the employer to the employee. We should not hide behind the word “flexibility” so that it can mean 3.34 pm exploitation. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): It is always a Let me highlight a couple of case studies. One employee great delight to follow my good and hon. Friend the of a cinema firm—I will not mention the firm involved— Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), who I tend to said: follow in these debates—he always gets taken last, although “I was offered part-time work with a zero-hours contract. It I am sure that can be dealt with in another place. was all down to the whims of the managers whether or not you got work that week, which is just impossible to live with.” This afternoon’s debate has added yet another dimension to the cost of living crisis that is engulfing the UK. It is He continued: not just the weekly shop, the energy bill or travel costs, “They were very manipulative. And they employed so many but the hidden contributor of job insecurity. It is worth people that we ended up getting about three hours a week. It reminding ourselves that the UK had the third most seems as though zero-hours contracts are being used more and more to get as many staff as possible without any intention of flexible employment regime in the OECD even before using them…or giving us the hours we need to live and earn” this Government came to power and that there is a direct correlation between job insecurity, consumer the income we need to survive. confidence and economic growth. In fact, the Lib Let us look at why the Government are so interested Dem Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), the in zero-hours contracts and flexibility. Could it be because former employment relations Minister, said that any they have a flexible Cabinet? They have a part-time changes to the employment regime that undermined Chancellor. Indeed, I might even contest that the Business consumer confidence and created job insecurity would Secretary himself is on a zero-hours contract with the be “crazy”. He later got the employment relations ministerial Liberal Democrats so that he can work full time for the brief and proceeded to do exactly what he said he would Tories to deliver all these attacks on workers’ rights. not do. Whether he likes it or not, that seems to be the case he is Many Members have discussed the plethora of other putting through. I wonder whether this issue also epitomises changes that have been made to the employment regime. the kind of economy that this Government are looking It is worth reflecting on those changes, because they to achieve—a low-wage, low-skilled, low-productivity feed into the insecurity at work, which many hon. work force that has insecure employment, to provide Members have mentioned, that is a symptom of zero-hours maximum flexibility and start a hire-and-fire culture. contracts. We have had—this is not an exclusive list, but The Minister might come to the Dispatch Box and gives an indication of why people feel more insecure at dispel that rumour, but it was only 24 hours ago that he work—the qualification period increased to two years, suggested that small business should be exempt from collective redundancy cut to 45 days, fees for employment any employment law whatever. If that is not creating a tribunals, the consequences of which were mentioned hire-and-fire culture, I do not know what is. by my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Let us reflect on the Government’s response to this Lucas), compensated no-fault dismissal by the back issue. Although I appreciate the tone of the Secretary of door and settlement agreements. We have also had State’s earlier comments—many have mentioned that—the shares for rights, compensation and employment tribunals record is: three BIS officials working part time on this slashed, lay people taken off employment tribunals and issue, “speaking informally” to stakeholders, with a employment appeal tribunals, TUPE regulations diluted— consultation promised some time in November. The that is perhaps partly why the problem of zero-hours Business Secretary said he hoped it would start some contracts has increased—the Agricultural Wages Board time in November, and I hope that he will bring forward abolished, national minimum wage enforcement slashed, strong proposals. the very existence of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority Many Members have spoken about issues in their questioned, and health and safety taken back to before constituencies and about what zero-hours contracts the Boer war. That is a cocktail of job insecurity, which mean to their constituents. My hon. Friend the Member is highlighted by the fact that we are having this debate for Halifax (Mrs Riordan) made a powerful contribution. on zero-hours contracts. She made the critical point that most employers in A lot of Members have talked about whether we Halifax look after their staff. I think that the vast should have done more in government. Many hon. majority of employers leave home every day to go to Members have made that criticism, but it is a false work with the intention of looking after their staff so 791 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 792

[Ian Murray] enough. I am sure that that is a lesson we will all be taking to the Leader of the Opposition the next time we that they can have a productive work force. I was struck speak to him. by my hon. Friend’s story of the young person who was The hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) desperate for a job and paid to travel to work, only to be has spoken in the Chamber about employment rights told that his name was not on the list. He had to travel on a number of occasions since I have been in this post. home again at his own expense. His description of Burnley conjured up a utopian dream, I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Hexham and I might even move there myself. He seemed to (Guy Opperman) is no longer in his place. He made a suggest that zero-hours contracts were working wonderfully deplorable contribution, comparing people on zero-hours there, and that they offered the solution to all evils. His contracts with his zero-hours contract as a barrister. I contribution on the way in which the contracts are hope that the Minister will agree that that is really not a affecting the people of Burnley was slightly strange, true comparison with the problem we are looking at. If given that they are seen in many other constituencies as the hon. Gentleman wanted to complain about being having precisely the opposite effect. on a zero-hours contract as a barrister—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) Here he comes! Perhaps he was picking up his next suggested that zero-hours contracts gave managers an £10,000-a-day contract while he was out of the Chamber. excuse to be lazy about proper planning, and he was My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme absolutely right. When I ran my own business, I spent (Paul Farrelly) has always been a strong proponent of an extraordinary amount of time creating rotas to the arguments that we are putting forward today. He ensure that every member of staff had the hours that rightly concluded that zero-hours contracts needed to they were contracted to do. That was a major part of be used, but he also argued powerfully that, if major running my own business, and if I was able to do it, I do private sector employers such as Tesco, Morrisons and not see why other organisations should not be able to Sainsbury’s do not need to use them, others such as do it too. Zero-hours contracts are bad for business. I Wetherspoon’s and Burger King should not need to spent a lot of time ensuring that people were paid either. This is all about fairness in the workplace. properly, and were doing their contracted hours so that they could pay their rent or their mortgage, but premises Guy Opperman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? not far from me that had 15 people on zero-hours Ian Murray: I will not give way, because the hon. contracts were taking on only eight or nine of them to Gentleman was not in the Chamber for the start of the work on any particular day. That lack of a level playing winding-up speeches. Anyway, before he arrived, I might field makes the economy uncompetitive. have said something particularly complimentary about My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central him. (Julie Elliott) led a marvellous debate in Westminster Hall just before the summer recess. Everybody talked in Guy Opperman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? it about the devastation that these contracts can inflict on our constituencies, particularly in respect of mortgage Ian Murray: I will give way, as he is so insistent. and rental agreements. Instead of slashing employee rights and making it easier for employers to fire rather Guy Opperman: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman than hire, as this Government have done, we should be for giving way. Does he not accept that, when someone looking at putting together a framework to make people is working for free, when they are obligated to take on more secure at work, which would indeed help the work and have no choice in the matter and when they economy. are contracted to carry out that employment, that is exactly the same as a zero-hours contract? That was the I ran out of having anything to note about the speech situation that I was in, and I regret to say that his of the hon. Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman). allegation was wrong. He is not in his place, so I shall not mention it any more. My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) Ian Murray: The hon. Gentleman might be confusing is a passionate advocate for her own constituency, and self-employment with zero-hours contracts. It is particularly she reminded us all of the disgrace whereby the Red unfair for a Government Member to stand up and Cross has had to feed people through food banks—for compare people on zero-hours contracts in the retail the first time in this country in 70 years. If that is not an and home care sectors with those who work as indictment of the current Government, showing how barristers. That is not particularly helpful. It just shows bad they are, I do not know what is. She posed the how out of touch the Government are. I am sure that interesting question of why anyone would want to be in people watching this debate at home will draw their own a zero-hours contract, and my hon. Friend the Member conclusions from that, as many people in the Chamber for Wansbeck said exactly the same thing. If someone have done. has an employment contract, why would they want it to I want to pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend say zero hours? My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), also raised the issue of job progression—a subject we who, along with a number colleagues, has produced a do not talk about enough. People on zero-hours contracts fantastic pamphlet on this issue. I would encourage the cannot get the skills, training and job progression up to Minister—and, indeed, the hon. Member for Hexham—to the next level that they need. read it and to look at the case studies and the My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham told us conclusions about what is happening in the labour about his constituents’ fear of losing their job if they market. She gave us a lesson today when she said that raised issues about these contracts. When people in the no one should tell their boss that they had done nothing, workplace are deciding whether to bring up such issues and they should instead say that they had not done with their employers, their fear of doing so is widespread. 793 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 794

My hon. Friend talked, too, about the demolition of zero-hours contracts are available, even when there is no people’s rights and the critical role of the partnership guarantee of any work; stopping these contracts that between trade unions and employers in this country. He require workers to work exclusively for one firm, which reflected on the Secretary of State’s examples from the the Secretary of State mentioned; ending the misuse of car industry, which show where that partnership has zero-hours contracts where employees are in practice worked exceptionally well. The recent success of the car working regular hours over a sustained period; and industry is testament to the workers, the trade unions, putting in place a code of practice that will allow people the Government and, indeed, the employers all working to use these contracts properly. together to achieve it. The cost-of-living crisis engulfing this country is made The hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) suggested worse by insecurity in the job market. That crisis can be no action, but said that the recent exploitation of these tackled only by ensuring that people are secure in their contracts is the real issue. We agree. There is no dispute employment and are paid a proper wage for a proper between us on that—it is the exploitation rather than day’s work. I hope that Members will support our zero-hours contracts themselves that must be dealt with. motion. My close neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), mentioned what is 3.49 pm happening in the care sector in Edinburgh. I think we are all going to have to deal with this issue in future if The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation people are to get the quality of care that they deserve. and Skills (Michael Fallon): May I thank the many Members who have spoken in this debate, which has Charlie Elphicke rose— been good natured? There have been a number of passionate speeches. Those who have contributed fall Ian Murray: I do not have time. I need to conclude to into two groups. There are clearly those who want to allow the Minister to reply—[Interruption.] The Minister squeeze out flexible-hour contracts altogether: the hon. is allowing me to give way, so I will. Members for Halifax (Mrs Riordan), for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott), Charlie Elphicke: I thank the hon. Gentleman for for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery). giving way. Unless it has escaped my attention, he has There are others who have taken a more nuanced approach. not mentioned the excellent speech of the hon. Member It was my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly), who was Opperman) who said that we needed to be neither for authentic on this matter, having attempted to highlight nor against flexible-hour contracts, but that we needed it over a long period. He chided the Opposition for a to deal with the exploitation. The hon. Member for lack of action when they were in government. Does the Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) welcomed the shadow Minister accept those criticisms? consultation that we are planning, but asked, quite fairly, whether it would encompass the wider issues of Ian Murray: I do not think my hon. Friend was shorter hours and agency working. I pay tribute to the criticising us for lack of action. His contribution was a hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) for powerful one about what should be happening across the work that she has done on this matter, and she said the whole of the labour market. We will work closely that she was willing to engage with the Government’s together on the solutions that need to be introduced. consultation. She has accepted that the sample that she Indeed, the Leader of the Opposition has already proposed has produced so far is relatively limited, but we are very some solutions. happy to look at her work, and I welcome her offer to engage with the Government on it. I forgot to mention that my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East referred to text messaging as the My hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Gordon new form of queuing up to find out whether there was Birtwistle) made some strong points on the issue of work at the docks. We need to bear that in mind. I have exclusivity. I can absolutely undertake to him that that seen examples of people finding out on mobile phones will be central to our consultation. He also made the that there is “no work for you today”—a message point convincingly that we should not unduly restrict sometimes sent only half an hour before the work was choice where that choice is being freely entered into. due to start. That cannot be viewed as acceptable. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Commentators have spoken about exploitative uses Freeman) spoke of the importance of retaining flexibility of zero-hours contracts and the fact that they are a lazy in the modern business environment and adduced powerful option for businesses, but the Resolution Foundation support for flexible-hour contracts from a range of also found that people on zero-hours contracts earned business and personnel organisations. My hon. Friend on average £6 an hour less, so the problem is not only the Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) was the only lacking hours of work, but what happens when the Member who spoke in the debate to point to the latest hours are offered. Case law about the mutuality of employment and unemployment figures, and I am rather obligation needs to be investigated further. When zero-hours surprised that no Opposition Member today was able to contracts are exploited, there is no mutuality of obligation recognise the continuing increase in the number of when people go for work and when they have been given people working, whether in the north-east or the south-east. work. We need that issue to be dealt with clearly. It is a shame that more Members did not give due credit Let us return to what the Leader of the Opposition to the increase in employment. announced last month, which covers some of the issues raised about banning exploitative use rather than zero-hours Lisa Nandy: I do not recognise anything of what the contracts themselves. My right hon. Friend rightly spoke Minister has said so far. If he had listened to the debate, about banning employers from insisting that those on perhaps he would be in a better position to respond to 795 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 796

[Lisa Nandy] unintended consequences. We must consider all the employment arrangements that could fall within the some of the very important points made by my hon. definition, such as work through agencies, which were Friends and by a few Members on the other side of the mentioned by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme. House. We must also ensure that we do not act in haste. We cannot accept the motion, because it prejudges Michael Fallon: I have been here throughout the the consultation in calling for a ban, and calls for debate and have listened to every speech since about a evidence that we have already begun to assemble. I quarter to 1 this afternoon. I certainly listened to the should add, however, that some of my hon. Friends hon. Lady’s speech, which was a very good one. I am suggested that the last Labour Government had done simply pointing out the difference between those hon. nothing about this matter during their 13 years in office. Members who want to get rid of flexible-hour contracts That is not wholly true. On the contrary, the last Labour altogether, and others who can see their value and want Government looked at the issue—and then did nothing. to preserve the choice so that those who are happy to They published a White Paper entitled “Fairness at choose them are able to do so. Work”, which discussed variable-hours contracts, and My hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie concluded: Elphicke) drew attention to the issue of eligibility for “The Government wishes to retain the flexibility these contracts mortgages and rental tenancies for those who are on offer business”. such contracts. It is important that we look at that A couple of years after the White Paper, the then aspect. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Business Secretary, the right hon. Member for Kingston Gilmore) raised the issue of the application of flexible-hour upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), said: contracts in the care industry, and spoke about the number of such services that have been contracted out. “The Government consider that zero hours contracts can contribute to the flexibility necessary for a modern labour market”.— However, a great number of councils up and down the [Official Report, 2 March 2000; Vol. 345, c. 344W.] country, and not just subcontracted firms, are using flexible-hour contracts: Doncaster, Southwark and Unlike the last Labour Government, we will act. We Liverpool, for example. The issue is not simply one for will hold a full consultation. We will consider important privatised contracted labour. issues such as restrictive exclusivity and the alleged lack of transparency. Alison McGovern: The Minister said that he was Today we have heard Opposition Members express disappointed that no one had mentioned the unemployment indignation about a flexibility that they themselves endorsed figures. In fact, in an earlier intervention I drew attention in government, and we have heard them speak of an to the relationship between zero-hours contracts and alleged abuse about which they did nothing in government. the under-employment that they represent, and what is No one wants people to be exploited; no one wants happening to the claimant count. Does the Minister feel people to be tied to contracts that are unnecessarily that we need to investigate the issue, and does he feel restrictive, and in which there is no genuine transparency. that that under-employment is serious and should be This Government are acting, whereas the last Government viewed alongside the falling claimant count? failed to do so. Question put. Michael Fallon: I shall be happy to consider the hon. Lady’s point about under-employment if she will recognise The House divided: Ayes 244, Noes 298. the considerable progress that the Government have Division No. 101] [3.59 pm made in increasing the total number of people in work since 2010. AYES Concerns have been expressed about the way in which Abbott, Ms Diane Brown, rh Mr Nicholas these contracts work, which is why the Government Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Brown, Mr Russell have listened and decided to act. As my right hon. Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Bryant, Chris Friend the Secretary of State said, we will shortly Alexander, Heidi Buck, Ms Karen launch a consultation and seek views on the issues that Ali, Rushanara Burden, Richard are causing concern—issues such as transparency in Allen, Mr Graham Byrne, rh Mr Liam contracts and the availability of information, advice Ashworth, Jonathan Campbell, Mr Alan and guidance to ensure that individuals are aware of Austin, Ian Campbell, Mr Ronnie their rights and companies are aware of their obligations Bailey, Mr Adrian Caton, Martin to provide, for instance, holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy Bain, Mr William Champion, Sarah Balls, rh Ed Clark, Katy pay and travelling time payments. As I said to my hon. Barron, rh Mr Kevin Clarke, rh Mr Tom Friend the Member for Burnley, we will also seek views Beckett, rh Margaret Clwyd, rh Ann on the issue of exclusivity in the employment contract. Begg, Dame Anne Coffey, Ann However, while it is right to consider all those issues, Benn, rh Hilary Cooper, Rosie we also need to ensure that the flexibility afforded by Benton, Mr Joe Cooper, rh Yvette contracts of this kind to both businesses and individuals Berger, Luciana Corbyn, Jeremy is still available. A flexible and dynamic labour market is Betts, Mr Clive Crausby, Mr David essential to facilitate growth in our economy, and to Blackman-Woods, Roberta Creagh, Mary give businesses that want to expand the opportunity to Blears, rh Hazel Creasy, Stella do so. Blenkinsop, Tom Cruddas, Jon Blomfield, Paul Cryer, John As there is no single definition of a variable-hours Blunkett, rh Mr David Cunningham, Alex contract, we must proceed with caution when considering Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Cunningham, Mr Jim the action that we might take to ensure that there are no Brown, Lyn Cunningham, Sir Tony 797 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 798

Curran, Margaret Jarvis, Dan Ritchie, Ms Margaret Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Dakin, Nic Johnson, rh Alan Robertson, Angus Tami, Mark Danczuk, Simon Johnson, Diana Robertson, John Thomas, Mr Gareth Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Graham Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Thornberry, Emily David, Wayne Jones, Helen Rotheram, Steve Timms, rh Stephen Davies, Geraint Jones, Mr Kevan Roy, Mr Frank Trickett, Jon De Piero, Gloria Jones, Susan Elan Roy, Lindsay Turner, Karl Denham, rh Mr John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Ruane, Chris Twigg, Derek Dobbin, Jim Keeley, Barbara Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Twigg, Stephen Dobson, rh Frank Kendall, Liz Sarwar, Anas Umunna, Mr Chuka Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Khan, rh Sadiq Sawford, Andy Vaz, rh Keith Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey Lammy, rh Mr David Seabeck, Alison Vaz, Valerie M. Lavery, Ian Shannon, Jim Walley, Joan Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lazarowicz, Mark Sharma, Mr Virendra Watson, Mr Tom Doran, Mr Frank Leslie, Chris Sheerman, Mr Barry Watts, Mr Dave Dowd, Jim Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sheridan, Jim Weir, Mr Mike Doyle, Gemma Lewis, Mr Ivan Shuker, Gavin Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Dromey, Jack Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Simpson, David Whitehead, Dr Alan Dugher, Michael Long, Naomi Skinner, Mr Dennis Williams, Hywel Durkan, Mark Love, Mr Andrew Slaughter, Mr Andy Williamson, Chris Eagle, Ms Angela Lucas, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Wilson, Sammy Eagle, Maria MacNeil, Mr Angus Smith, Angela Winnick, Mr David Efford, Clive Brendan Smith, Nick Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Elliott, Julie Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Owen Wishart, Pete Ellman, Mrs Louise Malhotra, Seema Spellar, rh Mr John Wright, Mr Iain Engel, Natascha Mann, John Straw, rh Mr Jack Tellers for the Ayes: Esterson, Bill Marsden, Mr Gordon Stringer, Graham Stephen Doughty and Evans, Chris McCabe, Steve Stuart, Ms Gisela Phil Wilson Farrelly, Paul McCann, Mr Michael Field, rh Mr Frank McCarthy, Kerry Fitzpatrick, Jim McCrea, Dr William NOES Flello, Robert McDonagh, Siobhain Adams, Nigel Burrowes, Mr David Flint, rh Caroline McDonald, Andy Afriyie, Adam Burstow, rh Paul Flynn, Paul McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Aldous, Peter Burt, Lorely Fovargue, Yvonne McDonnell, John Alexander, rh Danny Byles, Dan Francis, Dr Hywel McFadden, rh Mr Pat Amess, Mr David Cable, rh Vince Gapes, Mike McGovern, Alison Andrew, Stuart Cairns, Alun Gardiner, Barry McKechin, Ann Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Carmichael, Neil Gilmore, Sheila McKenzie, Mr Iain Bacon, Mr Richard Carswell, Mr Douglas Glass, Pat McKinnell, Catherine Baker, Norman Chishti, Rehman Glindon, Mrs Mary Meacher, rh Mr Michael Baldwin, Harriett Clappison, Mr James Godsiff, Mr Roger Meale, Sir Alan Barclay, Stephen Clark, rh Greg Goggins, rh Paul Mearns, Ian Barker, rh Gregory Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Greatrex, Tom Miliband, rh Edward Baron, Mr John Coffey, Dr Thérèse Greenwood, Lilian Miller, Andrew Barwell, Gavin Collins, Damian Griffith, Nia Mitchell, Austin Beith, rh Sir Alan Colvile, Oliver Gwynne, Andrew Moon, Mrs Madeleine Bellingham, Mr Henry Crabb, Stephen Hain, rh Mr Peter Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey Hamilton, Mr David Morris, Grahame M. Berry, Jake Davey, rh Mr Edward Hamilton, Fabian (Easington) Bingham, Andrew Davies, Philip Hanson, rh Mr David Mudie, Mr George Binley, Mr Brian Davis, rh Mr David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Munn, Meg Birtwistle, Gordon de Bois, Nick Harris, Mr Tom Murphy, rh Paul Blackman, Bob Dinenage, Caroline Havard, Mr Dai Murray, Ian Blackwood, Nicola Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Healey, rh John Nandy, Lisa Boles, Nick Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hendrick, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Bottomley, Sir Peter Dorries, Nadine Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi Bradley, Karen Doyle-Price, Jackie Hermon, Lady Osborne, Sandra Brady, Mr Graham Drax, Richard Heyes, David Owen, Albert Brake, rh Tom Duddridge, James Hillier, Meg Paisley, Ian Bray, Angie Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hilling, Julie Perkins, Toby Brazier, Mr Julian Dunne, Mr Philip Hodge, rh Margaret Phillipson, Bridget Bridgen, Andrew Ellis, Michael Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pound, Stephen Brine, Steve Ellison, Jane Hoey, Kate Powell, Lucy Brokenshire, James Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hood, Mr Jim Qureshi, Yasmin Brooke, Annette Elphicke, Charlie Hopkins, Kelvin Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Browne, Mr Jeremy Eustice, George Hosie, Stewart Reed, Mr Jamie Bruce, Fiona Evans, Graham Howarth, rh Mr George Reed, Mr Steve Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Evans, Jonathan Hunt, Tristram Reeves, Rachel Buckland, Mr Robert Evennett, Mr David Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Emma Burley, Mr Aidan Fabricant, Michael Jackson, Glenda Reynolds, Jonathan Burns, Conor Fallon, rh Michael Jamieson, Cathy Riordan, Mrs Linda Burns, rh Mr Simon Farron, Tim 799 Zero-hours Contracts16 OCTOBER 2013 Zero-hours Contracts 800

Featherstone, Lynne Johnson, Gareth Murrison, Dr Andrew Spencer, Mr Mark Field, Mark Jones, Andrew Neill, Robert Stanley, rh Sir John Foster, rh Mr Don Jones, rh Mr David Newmark, Mr Brooks Stephenson, Andrew Fox,rhDrLiam Jones, Mr Marcus Newton, Sarah Stewart, Iain Francois, rh Mr Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Nokes, Caroline Stewart, Rory Freeman, George Kelly, Chris Norman, Jesse Streeter, Mr Gary Freer, Mike Kirby, Simon Nuttall, Mr David Stride, Mel Fullbrook, Lorraine Knight, rh Mr Greg O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Fuller, Richard Kwarteng, Kwasi Ollerenshaw, Eric Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Gale, Sir Roger Laing, Mrs Eleanor Opperman, Guy Sturdy, Julian Garnier, Sir Edward Lancaster, Mark Paice, rh Sir James Swales, Ian Garnier, Mark Latham, Pauline Parish, Neil Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Gauke, Mr David Laws, rh Mr David Patel, Priti Swinson, Jo George, Andrew Leadsom, Andrea Paterson, rh Mr Owen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Gibb, Mr Nick Lee, Jessica Pawsey, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Gilbert, Stephen Lee, Dr Phillip Penning, Mike Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Leech, Mr John Penrose, John Teather, Sarah Glen, John Lefroy, Jeremy Phillips, Stephen Thornton, Mike Goldsmith, Zac Leigh, Sir Edward Pickles, rh Mr Eric Thurso, John Goodwill, Mr Robert Leslie, Charlotte Pincher, Christopher Timpson, Mr Edward Graham, Richard Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Poulter, Dr Daniel Tomlinson, Justin Gray, Mr James Lewis, Brandon Prisk, Mr Mark Tredinnick, David Grayling, rh Chris Lewis, Dr Julian Pritchard, Mark Truss, Elizabeth Green, rh Damian Liddell-Grainger, Mr Pugh, John Turner, Mr Andrew Greening, rh Justine Ian Raab, Mr Dominic Tyrie, Mr Andrew Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lilley, rh Mr Peter Randall, rh Mr John Uppal, Paul Griffiths, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Reckless, Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh Gummer, Ben Lord, Jonathan Redwood, rh Mr John Vickers, Martin Halfon, Robert Loughton, Tim Rees-Mogg, Jacob Walker, Mr Charles Hames, Duncan Luff, Peter Reevell, Simon Walker, Mr Robin Hammond, rh Mr Philip Lumley, Karen Reid, Mr Alan Wallace, Mr Ben Hammond, Stephen Macleod, Mary Robertson, rh Hugh Walter, Mr Robert Hands, Greg Maude, rh Mr Francis Robertson, Mr Laurence Ward, Mr David Harper, Mr Mark Maynard, Paul Rogerson, Dan Watkinson, Dame Angela Harrington, Richard McCartney, Jason Rosindell, Andrew Webb, Steve Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Karl Rudd, Amber Wharton, James Harvey, Sir Nick McIntosh, Miss Anne Ruffley, Mr David Wheeler, Heather Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McLoughlin, rh Mr Russell, Sir Bob White, Chris Heald, Oliver Patrick Rutley, David Whittaker, Craig Heath, Mr David McPartland, Stephen Sanders, Mr Adrian Whittingdale, Mr John Hemming, John Menzies, Mark Sandys, Laura Wiggin, Bill Henderson, Gordon Mercer, Patrick Scott, Mr Lee Williams, Roger Herbert, rh Nick Metcalfe, Stephen Selous, Andrew Williams, Stephen Hinds, Damian Mills, Nigel Sharma, Alok Williamson, Gavin Hoban, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Willott, Jenny Hollingbery, George Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Shepherd, Sir Richard Wilson, Mr Rob Hollobone, Mr Philip Mordaunt, Penny Simpson, Mr Keith Wollaston, Dr Sarah Holloway, Mr Adam Morgan, Nicky Smith, Miss Chloe Wright, Jeremy Hopkins, Kris Morris, Anne Marie Smith, Henry Wright, Simon Horwood, Martin Morris, David Smith, Julian Young, rh Sir George Howell, John Morris, James Smith, Sir Robert Hughes, rh Simon Mosley, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas Tellers for the Noes: Hunter, Mark Mowat, David Soubry, Anna Mr Sam Gyimah and Hurd, Mr Nick Mulholland, Greg Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Claire Perry Jackson, Mr Stewart Mundell, rh David James, Margot Munt, Tessa Question accordingly negatived. Jenkin, Mr Bernard Murray, Sheryll 801 16 OCTOBER 2013 802

Speaker’s Statement High Streets 4.12 pm [Relevant documents: Uncorrected transcripts of oral evidence taken before the Communities and Local Government Mr Speaker: Before we proceed to the next Opposition Committee on 17 June 2013, HC 309-i, and 2 September day debate, I am now in a position to announce the 2013, HC 612-i.] result of the election of a Deputy Speaker, following the ballot held today. Five hundred and fifty-one votes were cast, with no 4.17 pm spoilt ballot papers. The counting went to six stages. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I Five hundred and thirteen valid votes were cast in that beg to move, round, excluding those ballot papers whose preferences That this House recognises that high streets and town and city had been exhausted. The quota to be reached was centres are vital to local economies; acknowledges that many therefore 257 votes. The person elected First Deputy small businesses and retailers are struggling under the pressure of Chairman of Ways and Means with 273 votes is business rates rises; notes that since 2010 shop vacancy rates have Mrs Eleanor Laing. The other candidate in that round remained at over 14 per cent but that there has been a 20 per cent was Mr Brian Binley, who received 240 votes. increase in numbers of payday loan shops and a three per cent increase in numbers of betting shops in the last year; is concerned Eleanor Laing will take up her post immediately. I that recent changes to permitted development rights and use congratulate the hon. Lady warmly and I may say on classes are likely to lead to an over-concentration of betting shops behalf of my colleagues and myself that we all greatly and payday loan companies in many areas, against the wishes of look forward to working with her. In the process I local people and businesses; and calls on the Government to give should like, on behalf, I am sure, of the whole House, to local communities a greater say over the shape of their own high thank all the candidates for participating in this election streets and town and city centres, including control over use and for a contest which showed the House at its best. classes, to help encourage the more widespread use of neighbourhood planning and greater cooperation between local communities and The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom businesses and to cut and then freeze business rates from 2015 to Brake) rose— help small businesses on UK high streets and town and city centres. Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con) rose— When introducing the Portas pilots a few years ago, the right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Mr Speaker: In a moment—I am saving the hon. Shapps), with his customary understatement and modesty, Lady up. said that The results under the single transferable vote system “these pilots can be the vanguard of a high street revolution, and will be made available as soon as possible in the Vote others can look to their example to kick start a renaissance of our Office and published on both the intranet and the town centres.” internet for public viewing. Let us hear first from the However, recent data show us that this high street hon. Lady. revolution has yet to materialise. I think it is wrong to Hon. Members: Hear, hear. place the blame at the door of Mary Portas, because there was much in her original report that was helpful. I Mrs Laing: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. May I want to place the blame for such poor progress in welcome the announcement you have just made? I reviving our high streets firmly where it belongs: with thank the Clerks and Officers of the House for the way the Government. they conducted today’s election, and for doing it so The Government’s failed policies for the high street swiftly. I would like, on behalf of all the candidates who undoubtedly start with the sluggishness of our economic took part, to thank each of the other candidates for the recovery, but I want to focus specifically on what is demure and pleasant way the election was conducted. I wrong with their approach to regenerating our high thank the House for placing its confidence in me to let streets and town centres. The past five years have seen a me become part of your team. Thank you. significant squeeze on household and personal incomes, Mr Speaker: I appreciate the hon. Lady’s typically resulting in muted spending and an increase in retail gracious words. What she said by way of tribute to the failures. The high street has not only been hit by falling staff of the House, who are always exemplary in living standards but has had to contend with the rise in professionalism, discretion and efficiency, will have been internet shopping. Yes, shopping habits are changing, noted, in particular. but the high streets and town centres are still very important to the well-being of our communities, yet the Tom Brake: Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Government’s policies are not rising to the challenge of I hope that it is in order to congratulate the hon. revitalising and regenerating them. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) on behalf of the Government on her election as Deputy Speaker. I Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): The wish her every success in that post. hon. Lady starts her speech with a blame game. Would Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): she attribute any blame to Labour’s Licensing Act 2003, Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like which caused a culture of binge-drinking on the streets? to echo the comments of the Deputy Leader of the Does she see that as in any way revitalising and adding a House. The hon. Member for Epping Forest has a positive contribution to our high streets? strong record in political and constitutional reform and will make a very good Deputy Speaker. Roberta Blackman-Woods: The hon. Gentleman ought to look to see what his Government’s policies are doing Mr Speaker: Thank you. in terms of the rising number of payday loan companies and betting shops on our high streets. 803 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 804

Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): The hon. Lady Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): To return to the mentions the over-proliferation of betting shops. Surely question of whether there has been an increase in the the Labour Government’s Licensing Act made that number of betting shops, I am concerned about the worse with the changes they made to the number of high number of gambling adverts during TV programmes. machines that could be put in each shop. Because of her I watched the football last night and there were three of Government’s policy, the national chains are now putting those adverts during one commercial break alone. Does several branches on the same high street. my hon. Friend agree that such encouragement of gambling must be linked to the impact on the high street? Roberta Blackman-Woods: In fact, the reason for the increased number of payday loan companies is, first, Roberta Blackman-Woods: That is undoubtedly one what has been happening to the economy, and secondly, reason why the number of gambling operations on our the change in use class orders, to which I will turn in a high street is increasing, but I do not think it is the only few moments. reason. Local shops and retailers are really feeling the squeeze on the high street, and these are still tough times for Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Will the hon. Lady give many areas. way?

Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Will the hon. Lady Roberta Blackman-Woods: I hope the hon. Gentleman join me in congratulating Crawley borough council and will not mind if I make some progress. I will let him West Sussex county council, which are, as we speak, intervene later. significantly regenerating Crawley high street? We know from information recently produced by the Roberta Blackman-Woods: Of course we would welcome Local Data Company that there has been an improvement any regeneration that is happening on our high streets. in occupancy rates. That is a good thing, but before Business rates are rising by an average of nearly Government Members get too excited I must point out £2,000 during this Parliament, and more than one in that the vacancy rate has fallen from 14.2% to 14.1%, so 10 small businesses say that they spend the same or one in seven shops are still standing empty, which is more on business rates as they do on rent. However, we hardly a cause for celebration. That average figure also must ask this question: is it all doom and gloom? hides some large regional disparities. For example, Blackburn has a huge vacancy rate of 26.9%, with one Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Our historic in four shops lying empty. high street in Stockton-on-Tees has suffered, like others, The report also shows that in some areas vacancy but our council has acted by developing what it calls the rates remain stubbornly high. Since August 2010, the enterprise arcade, which gives fledgling businesses the national average for empty shops has been above 14%, opportunity to develop and then move into shop units. with a significant number being long-term sick with Yet we are seeing more betting shops and payday loan little or no prospect of being reoccupied as shops. Areas companies taking up space in our high street. Does my of improvement undoubtedly exist, but overall the recovery hon. Friend agree that those fledgling businesses should on our high streets leaves much to be desired. be given priority over betting shops and others so that they can provide the shops our high street needs? The Government have responded to this major problem in their usual way: they have taken a piecemeal approach, Roberta Blackman-Woods: I absolutely agree. Indeed, fragmented the response and, when all else has failed, we are arguing that local authorities should be given blamed the planning system. We now have a plethora of more powers over what happens in their high streets so initiatives intent on improving the high street: Portas that they are able to shape their direction in certain pilots, town team partners, the future high streets forum, areas. a high street innovation fund, the high street renewal award and a fund for business improvement districts. Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Is the hon. Lady aware that the number of betting shops has reduced Mark Pawsey: On vacancy rates and betting shops, slightly in the past 12 months, and that 9,000 betting given the choice would the hon. Lady rather see a unit shops on the high streets is 7,000 fewer than there were occupied by a betting shop or left vacant as a hole in the in the 1970s? Will she not accept that over the long term high street? the number of betting shops has fallen? Roberta Blackman-Woods: I draw the hon. Gentleman’s Roberta Blackman-Woods: The hon. Gentleman needs attention to the fact that regionally the number varies to consider the fact that too many shops of a particular massively. There has certainly been a huge increase in type crowd out other shops that might be more desirable. the number of betting shops in several areas in the past Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Does my 12 months. hon. Friend agree that a distinct contrast can be drawn Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): My between Kings road in Chelsea and County road in hon. Friend is making a very compelling argument for Liverpool, Walton, which has experienced a proliferation giving local councils the power to determine how their of betting shops, payday loan companies, fast-food high streets develop. One measure that we could introduce takeaways and pawnbrokers? The Government cannot is umbrella provisions to enable local councils to stop wash their hands of this—the rise has been exponential the clustering of payday lenders or betting shops on the and that has partly been down to their policies. high street. Roberta Blackman-Woods: My hon. Friend is absolutely Roberta Blackman-Woods: Indeed. My hon. Friend right. We must highlight where the Government’s policies makes an excellent point and I will expand on it later. on the high street have failed. 805 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 806

There is a long list of initiatives, but the fragmented communities when, unless I have misunderstood something, approach masks the lack of an overall strategic approach this Parliament recently passed the Localism Act 2011, that would bring together local authorities, key stakeholders which was initiated by this Government, as a result of and communities to plan for and deliver real change in which business improvement districts are being created their town centres. and neighbourhood plans formulated all over my constituency. The hon. Lady clearly was not here for Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Before the hon. Lady those debates and has not noticed what is happening in moves on to her socialist selection of which stores it is communities across England. right for people to purchase from, will she admit that the Government’s employment allowance, which will be Roberta Blackman-Woods: It is the right hon. Gentleman introduced in 2015 and will reduce the cost of hiring who has not noticed what is happening, particularly people to work in shops, is a very welcome step in with regard to use class orders. The power for local getting started the sorts of shops that people want to communities to shape their high streets is being taken purchase from? away. A steer from Government is required to enable local Roberta Blackman-Woods: It is very important to authorities, stakeholders and communities to get together have a localist approach that encourages local people to and pool their resources to shape their high streets. One get involved in shaping their high street. I would have huge stumbling block to the Grimsey approach remains. thought that the hon. Gentleman supported such an While many of us have been arguing for greater powers approach before all the changes that have been made to assist local communities in shaping their areas, the over the past couple of years. Government have been busy giving away the powers We want key stakeholders and communities to be that do exist to provide for that. In May, the Government brought together to plan and deliver change in their legislated to allow changes to use classes so that virtually town centres. It is a pity that the Minister was not at the any class of commercial premises on the high street can Local Data Company summit this morning, because he become any kind of shop, fast food restaurant or shop would have heard people saying that that was exactly in the euphemistically named “financial and professional what they wanted. services sector”, which alongside banks and estate agents In his recent report, Bill Grimsey gave the Government includes payday lenders or legal loan sharks and betting some much-needed helpful advice. I will briefly highlight shops. a few of his recommendations. He said that the Government I hope the Minister can tell us what was going through should: the Government’s mind when they decided that what “Set an objective to repopulate high streets and town centres as struggling high streets needed was for it to be made community hubs encompassing: more housing, education, arts, easier for more bookies and payday loan companies to entertainment, business/office space, health and leisure—and some be sprawled across them. I would like to hear the shops”, rationale for that decision, because my previous attempts and to elicit a response from the Government have failed. “Establish a Town Centre Commission for each town with a Nationally, there are 20% more payday loan shops and defined skill base and structure to build a 20-year vision for each 3% more betting shops than there were a year ago. town”. He went on to say that they should establish five pilots Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I hesitate to to trial that immediately and called on the Government interrupt my hon. Friend, but does she agree it was to extraordinary that the coalition Government opposed “Prepare for a ‘wired town’ vision or ‘networked high streets’”, my amendment to the Localism Bill, which would have to review business rates and to require the owners of made betting shops a sui generis class under our planning empty properties to seek a change of use class to bring laws, and brought an end to the travesty that is taking properties back into occupation. place across our high streets?

Mr Marcus Jones: The hon. Lady is setting great Roberta Blackman-Woods: I absolutely agree with my store by the Grimsey report. She has spoken about right hon. Friend, and it is a shame the Government did making it easier to change use classes and to convert not accept his amendment. We must keep pressing them commercial property into residential property. However, to change direction, particularly from where they are her motion argues against that. How does she square attempting to go at the moment, which is complete that circle? deregulation. There are 20% more payday loan shops and 3% more Roberta Blackman-Woods: If the hon. Gentleman betting shops than a year ago, and I do not think there had read the motion more carefully, he would have seen is huge clamour out there in our communities for any that we are arguing that local authorities, in consultation more. Indeed, people want the opposite; they want with their communities, should be able to shape use fewer of those shops because they are taking the place classes in their area. We do not think that use classes of independent retailers, clothes shops and health food should be got rid of altogether, which is what his shops. Government are seeking to do. Andrew Gwynne: Is the real point that the growth in Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) payday lenders, bookmakers and takeaways is reducing (LD): I must express concern about a motion that calls the vitality and vibrancy of the high street, meaning on the Government to that fewer shoppers want to go and shop in the retail “give communities a greater say over the shape of their” outlets that remain? 807 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 808

Roberta Blackman-Woods: My hon. Friend is right. that, having invested in the new venture, they could be We know that once there is a proliferation of payday put out of business. Is that an example of what my hon. loan companies and the like on our high streets, other Friend describes? retailers are put off coming to the area. Roberta Blackman-Woods: I thank my hon. Friend Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): My hon. for giving us that example, which clearly demonstrates Friend said there is no clamour out there in the country what is wrong with the Government’s approach. I hope for more betting shops, fast food takeaways and payday the Minister has heard it. loan companies, but there is a clamour for communities I should tell the Minister that the Opposition are not and planning authorities to have more control over against change to use classes, but the Government are these changes. Does she agree that the recent changes entirely misguided in seeking to introduce a national make a complete mockery of the rhetoric coming from permitted development right that will bypass local decision the Government about giving more power to communities? making and give communities no say in what ends up It is simply not true. on their high streets.

Roberta Blackman-Woods: Indeed. I agree with my Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): On the Channel 4 hon. Friend, and what we are currently seeing from the “Dispatches” programme in August last year, the right Government is very anti-localist; it is the opposite of hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham what they say they are doing. (Ms Harman), said that the Gambling Act 2005 was a “mistake”, that the consequences Mr Marcus Jones: Will the hon. Lady give way? “are ruining the high street and people’s lives” and that “we were wrong”. Do you agree? Roberta Blackman-Woods: I will make some progress. There are now more than twice as many betting shops Roberta Blackman-Woods: The hon. Gentleman should on British high streets as all the cinemas, bingo halls, pay more attention to what is happening to changes in museums, bowling alleys, arcades, galleries and snooker use class resulting in more gambling outlets on his high halls combined. I am sure the owners of payday loan street. companies were jumping for joy when they learned that this year they could accelerate the growth of their Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. businesses without even having to ask for a change of Obviously, I did not agree either. use for the buildings they intend to occupy. The policy is so disastrous that I am not sure who the Government Roberta Blackman-Woods: Thank you, Mr Deputy think it will help. It will certainly not help independent Speaker. start-ups, which are still hampered—as we know—by The Government’s approach is entirely the wrong the lack of available credit. one and profoundly anti-localist. It is therefore strange As if the changes announced in May were not bad that they seek to badge the changes as indicating that enough, the Government have just completed consultation they are absolutely committed to enabling individuals on another round of relaxations to permitted development and community groups to have a greater say over every and change of use classes that would see banks become aspect of their area, including their high streets. I can flats, post offices become residences, and any small only conclude that that is some sort of Orwellian misspeak. shop turned into a house without the local authority or What would Labour do? First, it would allow local community having a say in whether those changes are authorities to put some types of businesses into a appropriate or of sufficient quality. separate use class or use classes to prevent over-saturation London local councils recently produced a report of a particular use type in a given area—betting shops, that stated: for example. We know that some in the Government “The removal of boroughs’ ability to require planning permission agree. At the Liberal Democrat conference this year, the for these types of use change is likely to have a detrimental rather Comptroller of Her Majesty’s Household, the then than positive impact on local economic growth. And whilst there Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities is a recognition that some previously commercial areas in and and Local Government, moved a motion saying that around high streets are no longer viable for business, the ability local councillors should be for these to become residential should be left to the discretion of the local planning authority and not national policy.” “empowered to decide whether or not to give approval to additional gambling venues in their community”, We entirely agree. We are not against the principle of and he called on Liberal Democrats in the Government changes from office to residential; we are for the principle to push for betting shops to be put in a new separate of local communities deciding what is best for their planning use class area, not Ministers in Whitehall. “allowing local authority planning committees to control them”. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I have been The motion was passed, so no wonder he was reshuffled. contacted by the owners of the Exchange, a music The Government have done exactly the opposite. venue in Bristol—it is in the constituency of the Under- Local councils also agree with the Opposition. A Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, recent report from all 32 London boroughs said that the hon. Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams). town centres and high streets were at risk of not meeting They took out new premises in a commercial area of the needs of local residents because planning regulations Bristol, but have found out that there are plans to restrict the powers of local councils to encourage balanced convert neighbouring properties into residential properties. local economies, including a lack of control on the They will therefore get noise complaints. They are concerned spread of shops such as pawnbrokers and bookmakers. 809 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 810

The councils recommended that such shops should be definitely worth saving. I doubt if the Minister reads removed from use class A2 to a sui generis class of their her weekly column, but he should. He should listen to own. The House should note that local authorities did her and he should listen to us, too. not ask for further deregulation of that use class, which the Government propose to give them. 4.47 pm Secondly, Labour would give local authorities powers to determine permitted development locally in keeping The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for with local needs and aspirations. Thirdly, Labour would Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): strengthen neighbourhood planning and consider retail High streets are far more than shop windows to the diversity schemes to allow communities to shape their retail industry. They have moved far beyond just being a high street. Fourthly, as announced at conference by the retail hub. They are the heartbeat of our towns and Labour leader, a Labour Government would cut business cities and have always been the lynchpin of our communities. rates for small businesses if elected in 2015 and freeze With that in mind, I was disappointed if not surprised them the year after, helping 1.5 million small businesses, to hear the hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta many of which are on our high streets. Blackman-Woods) reduce the issue to Labour wanting more regulation, more borrowing and higher taxes while, Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): Does my hon. in one fell swoop, managing to destroy local government Friend share my view that in areas of market failure, finance post-2015. particularly across the north of England, the situation is acute, and that, in the face of swingeing cuts to Mr Jamie Reed: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely council grants to the point where they are in some cases right that high streets are about civic identity and unsustainable, we must do all we can to grow indigenous elements of civic society. Does he think that the closure businesses to keep communities afloat? of NHS walk-in centres, police stations, courts and more in our high streets is helping or hindering them? Roberta Blackman-Woods: Absolutely.The small business sector is essential to the health of our communities, Brandon Lewis: Our high streets benefit from wider including our high streets. community access, whether that includes fire stations, the police, children’s centres, the NHS, retail, leisure or John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Does the hon. Lady hospitality. The hon. Member for City of Durham says favour showing specific discretion to business rates for she wants the town centre to be the heart of the community retail property, as opposed to small businesses in general? and a real community hub. I applaud that. I am just not quite sure how, in the same speech, she managed to Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The debate has been argue against that by proposing to ban conversion to going for nearly 30 minutes and I am concerned about residential, which brings more people to our high streets. the number of speakers. The hon. Gentleman is right: people care deeply about their high streets because they are the centres of their Roberta Blackman-Woods: I will move on as quickly community. We want to see vibrant, viable high streets as I can, Mr Deputy Speaker. where people live, shop, use services, and spend their leisure time, and that includes a safe night-time economy. In response to the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh), the announcement was to cut business rates if Jason McCartney: Will the Minister join me in saying elected in 2015 and freeze them for the year after that. how disappointing it was that the shadow Minister had In the context of that announcement, the Government’s nothing to say about car parking charges in the centres plans to fiddle with red tape and postpone the business of our small towns? Labour-run Kirklees council still rate re-evaluation just do not cut it. We will start imposes inflexible car parking charges in Holmfirth, discussions with local authorities to see which of the which is a small market town. No wonder shoppers go Grimsey proposals can be taken forward to begin to to Morrisons two miles down the road, where they can deliver real change on the high street. park for free. Will he encourage Labour-run Kirklees to Finally, we want to put local communities at the be more flexible and have more supportive car parking centre of decision making with regard to what happens charges? in their high street, so they can determine a vision for it and deliver to local needs and aspirations. Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a very good point; councils should look closely at their car parking Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Will the hon. charges, not least because, as they will know if they have Lady give way? any real business sense—I would hope that even a Labour council would seriously consider its future financing Roberta Blackman-Woods: I need to carry on, as we opportunities—successful high streets will drive business are running out of time. rates retention. However, for that they need footfall and Above all, we must remain hopeful that our high for footfall all the evidence shows we need easy, cheap streets can be vibrant community hubs, and this is car parking. entirely possible if local communities are given the right I will take no lectures from Labour on our high freedoms. Local people are best placed to decide the streets. kind of high street they want for them and their families to live, socialise and shop in. Writing in The Observer Alex Cunningham: Stockton boasts the widest high last week, Lauren Laverne reminded us that our high street in England, and a major project to rejuvenate it is streets provide places of real escape, and as long as they under way, thanks to a Labour local authority. Many do they remain more than a metonym and are places organisations are involved, but the Post Office has 811 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 812

[Alex Cunningham] Brandon Lewis: Councils have the power of article 4, but there is a wider issue about ensuring that our town opted to walk away from our high street, downgrading centres are vibrant places that businesses want to be in, the service and burying it at the back of another shop. so that they are filled with the kind of retail, hospitality Does the Minister agree that the Post Office should be a and leisure industries that consumers and residents want. partner in our high streets, instead of walking away? In response to the sedentary intervention just now from the right hon. Member for Tottenham, we are Brandon Lewis: I would encourage the hon. Gentleman reviewing betting machines and have given our full to be more persuasive about what is right for his community. support to councils, such as Labour-run Barking, to use In a range of communities, the Post Office is investing their existing envelope of planning powers to tackle the in high streets, including in mine in Great Yarmouth. community impact of betting shops. I will remind the House of Labour’s record on the high streets. It introduced 24-hour drinking laws. Its Mr Lammy: Does the Minister accept that London campaign in the 2001 election actually said: councils are saying that it costs a lot of money to use “Couldn’t give a XXXX for last orders? Vote Labour on article 4 planning powers and that they should be Thursday for extra time”. spending their money on the public, not on lawyers? It then gave our town centres a Jekyll and Hyde personality—quiet by day, often nasty and brutish by Brandon Lewis: The simple answer is no. Those night—whereas this coalition Government have given authorities are wrong: it simply does not. They need to more powers to councils to rein in the excesses of the go back and think much harder about changing their late-night, vertical drinking establishments, while supporting offer and doing what they believe is right for their well run, popular and safe community pubs. Labour communities. If that means using article 4, it is there for pushed through the Gambling Act 2005—I am pleased them to use. to see the then Minister, the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), who took it through the Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Given the House, here today—leading to a rise in uncontrolled impact of the internet on shopping habits, does the gaming, including addictive fixed odds betting terminals. Minister agree that councils have to work with their local town centres to maximise their use, which would Bill Esterson: Government Members jumped up and include office use and leisure use, as well as shopping down defending bookmakers earlier, but does the Minister use? agree that encouraging more bookies, which is what the legislative changes do, will put people off going to the Brandon Lewis: My right hon. Friend makes a good high street and that those who visit the bookies only point. I agree and will come to that in a few moments. spend their money in the bookies and do not go to the Labour made it more difficult to park in town other retailers? centres—my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) has mentioned that point—with Brandon Lewis: I do not think the evidence entirely Whitehall guidance issued by John Prescott telling councils backs that up, but I will let the hon. Gentleman discuss to cut the number of parking spaces, increase parking that with his right hon. Friend, who brought in the Act charges and hit drivers with fines. In 2008, the local that created a lot of the problems. Online gambling, government Minister, the right hon. Member for Wentworth which the hon. Gentleman spoke about earlier, is part and Dearne (John Healey), complained that councils of what takes people away from the high street. I was were not using parking charges to their “full potential”. disappointed to hear Opposition Members lambast some By the end of Labour’s time in office, 9 million parking good, strong small businesses employing people and fines a year were issued in England. What was the bringing money into our economy, including some of public’s response? Quite sensibly, they are taking their the fast food outlets, which are a phenomenally important time to shop online or drive to out-of-town stores where part of the high street. they are not penalised for using their cars. That was Labour’s response to changing lifestyles and the internet—to The deputy leader of the Labour party, the right hon. make it as difficult as possible for people to shop in and and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham visit our town centres. (Ms Harman), has since admitted, as my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) said: Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): Does the Minister “I think we were wrong, we have made a mistake... it’s ruining not accept that the elephant in the room is not the people’s lives.” Secretary of State and his views on car parking, but business rates rapidly increasing and damaging small Mr Lammy: Then do something about it. businesses?

Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Can would not subscribe to the socialist vision for our high we try to be a little more courteous to Members in all streets of allowing politicians and bureaucrats to decide parts of the House? what is suitable for them, but constituents of mine have expressed their concerns about the plethora of bookies. Brandon Lewis: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I I wonder whether we should be unpicking some of the will come to business rates in a moment, but when I talk damage done by the previous Government’s Gambling to retailers, there are two key issues, one of which is how Act and introducing a concept of saturation, which we get more footfall into town centres, and there is no could be taken into account when the Gambling getting away from the fact that parking has a key part to Commission makes licensing decisions. play in that. 813 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 814

As the hon. Member for City of Durham rightly said, Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a superb the internet is not just a creative technology; it is changing point about how we can improve footfall in our town retail dramatically. The fall of some retailers—household centres by being flexible enough to allow people to live names that we all knew well, such as Blockbuster and nearer to them and in and around them. the old HMV—was down to weaknesses in their business The Government are looking at building skills and models and an inability to keep up with the pace of spreading best practice, as well as doing everything we change. They struggled to adapt to modern behaviour can at national level to support high street growth. That and could not compete with the rise of the new online is why we invited Mary Portas, who has championed the retailers, which now make up almost 15% of the market—a British high street, to review the future of the nation’s figure that experts say will rise exponentially. High high streets. She has done a phenomenal job of raising streets have changed and must continue to do so. The the profile of that issue around the country over the best retailers and the best high streets and town centres past few years. We took action following her review, are already looking at how they can and should adapt providing communities with the means to establish Portas to become places where people live, shop, use services pilots and town teams across the country to test different and spend their leisure time, but there are no quick and approaches. We have put in place 27 Portas pilots and easy solutions. As hon. Members will know, that will more that 350 town team partners, with funding and a take time. defined support package for each of them. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): The Minister is making Over the past year, the Government have worked some excellent points. We need more diverse, innovative closely with the Association of Town and City Management high streets. Does he agree that it might be a good idea and with Business in the Community to support the to encourage colleges to open employment shops on Portas pilots and the town teams. The ATCM is making high streets for young people? use of a £1 million fund to provide practical assistance to improve leadership, town team capabilities and Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a good point. partnership working, and to share learning and spread In fact, on Monday I was in Bedford seeing how the best practice. Business in the Community has set up a town has integrated the educational establishments into high street champions programme to give dedicated the town centre. That is a good example of how to bring support to the Portas pilots on business engagement the whole community together. and mentoring. Businesses with a commitment to town centres provide support and encouragement to Portas Richard Fuller: As the proud Member for Bedford, pilots to help them to achieve their objectives. may I thank the Minister for visiting the town on The high street champions are working with their Monday with Mary Portas? She said three important town teams to deliver positive change in their towns, things: that Bedford is a beautiful town, which it is, that and a lot has been achieved by the pilots and town we have a glorious river, which we do, and that the best teams. For example, Market Rasen has built a market way for towns to work is for the community to work from scratch, which earlier this year won a prestigious together on its future, which we are. Does the Minister award for being Britain’s best small speciality market. agree with those three points? Dartford has introduced Sunday trading with free parking and subsidised advertising. Stockton has launched a Brandon Lewis: It was clear on Monday how proud of discounted business rates scheme for businesses that Bedford the team rightly are. They have done some take over a vacant shop in the town centre. That is great work, and it was a wonderful place to visit and to something that councils now have the power to do, see some of it. thanks to this Government. Ipswich has a brave, large-scale Given the time, I want to make a bit of progress. master plan to reorient its high street so that it runs Some recent research suggests that the vacancy rates on from east to west instead of from north to south. It is high streets are beginning to plateau, after about 20 years making the most of its assets to transform its existing of decline. If that is true, we should celebrate that—and town centre and its waterfront. A variety of mixed and celebrate the great British high street—but we must also leisure uses have been approved, and that has attracted look to do more. The coalition Government are committed further investment and created new employment to helping communities to adapt. We believe that plans opportunities. Those are just a handful of examples; and ideas for town centres must come from local areas there are many more great pieces of work being done themselves. It is for councils, businesses and communities around the country. to decide what their high streets and town centres will look like. Government cannot and should not look to Mr Jamie Reed: I am genuinely grateful to the Minister bail out or prop up ailing high street businesses with for giving way. He is being generous with his time and it taxpayers’ money, nor should we just introduce new is appreciated. Will he tell me what specific support the taxes—as has been suggested by the Opposition—to Government are giving or intending to give to communities create a level playing field of misery. Higher taxes in areas of market failure that are being particularly destroy jobs and undermine enterprise. Government affected by the public spending cuts that we have seen must support local people, building skills and spreading since 2010? best practice. Brandon Lewis: As I have just said, councils and Mark Pawsey: Does the Minister agree that one way communities must look at what they can do. For example, in which a community can effectively defend its town councils could use powers to alter business rates, which centre is to take a more positive attitude towards new the previous Government did not allow them to have. housing development, which provides additional consumers They could also do more in relation to parking. I will for the shops in the centre of town? outline some more specific points in a moment. 815 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 816

[Brandon Lewis] The sector specialists are putting their own time and expertise into this project; they are the ones best placed, Earlier this year, we established the future high streets with the best experience and knowledge of the market, forum, which brings together leaders from retail, property, to support and advise us and others on the programme academia, hospitality and local government. They include of work. We are helping local people to adapt their high sector experts from organisations such as Boots, Costa streets, making available new tools and powers. Through Coffee, John Lewis and the Post Office. The forum is the planning system, we are removing barriers and we taking forward important work, looking at local leadership, have set out a “town centre first” policy in the national at the barriers to and enablers of success, and at what planning policy framework. We want to see more people the future high street will look like. living in and near their town centres to make them more vibrant, but also to increase footfall. That could include Simon Hughes: The Government have taken loads of bringing in housing or other business uses alongside the really good initiatives, and the Minister is right to put traditional retail offer. them before the House today. It is also clear that some In May, we introduced measures that allow property of Labour’s criticisms about gaming issues are completely owners to take advantage of new rights for temporary misconceived, given that it was the Labour Government’s changes of use. Those measures have been well received legislation that caused the problem. I supported the by developers. A recent survey of just 15% of councils motion on reviewing use orders that was passed at our by Planning magazine showed that there have been conference, and I hope that the Government will look 262 prior approval applications for change of use from seriously at the question of use orders in relation to offices to residential in the first two to three months. betting establishments— That includes a number of applications to create over 100 new dwellings. The Labour party opposes those Roberta Blackman-Woods: That is what the motion is reforms, yet also opposes brownfield regeneration— all about. providing badly needed new homes at no cost to the taxpayer. If the Labour party does not want more Simon Hughes: It is not what the motion is all about; homes in our towns and cities, where should people go it is one of the points in the motion. I am asking the for them? These practical changes are already helping Government to look into the question. to boost the economy, but there is more we can do. The sense of decline in some areas can be aggravated Brandon Lewis: I thank my right hon. Friend for his by the sight of closed or run-down shops. A public intervention. He will appreciate that, at the moment, consultation has just closed on further relaxations of the Government are not looking to create more regulation change of use. We want to unlock the potential of on the high street. underused and unused retail premises while providing much needed homes at the same time. More people Andrew Griffiths: The Minister has mentioned the living closer to or in town centres will increase footfall hospitality and leisure sectors on a number of occasions. and boost local shops and businesses. We also want to He will know, through his magnificent work as the pubs allow retail premises to change to banks and building Minister, the importance of the community pub. Does societies, delivering more branches on the high street he agree that the night-time economy and the leisure and encouraging more choice and more competition for sector play a massive role in revitalising our high streets consumers. By contrast, Labour’s planning policies mean and in providing jobs and opportunities for young more red tape, higher costs for business, and more people? boarded-up, empty shops. Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a good point. As well as cutting excessive regulation, this Government It is important that we look at what a community needs are easing the tax burden on small shops. From April and wants. Our high streets are changing into places 2014, every business and charity will be entitled to an where people go for a day out or a night out. While they allowance against their national insurance contributions are there, they might do some shopping, have something bill each year. That will reduce the costs of employment, to eat, or go to a bar, a club or the local community pub. supporting small businesses as they grow. We have It is important to embrace that and not to try to have doubled small business rate relief until 2014, and made what can be inferred from earlier: some sort of socialist it easier to claim. Since 2010—and it is important to put or Marxist control from the centre of what the high this in context—the level of relief given has trebled street can or cannot have or of what we should facilitate from £333 million to £900 million. We have cut corporation in our high streets. The consumer and the customer will tax, whereas Labour wants to hike it for successful drive what the businesses want to provide. That is how companies. to get a high street that serves its customers. Let us compare the record of this Government with that of the last Government. Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): Does Labour opposed making it easier to claim small my hon. Friend agree that, although pubs are very business rate relief; we changed the law to make it easier important to our town centres and communities, they to claim, and doubled the rate relief for four years. do not need to stay open until 4 o’clock in the morning Labour hiked up business rates on empty properties, to serve that purpose? with no offsetting reduction elsewhere; we are introducing a new rate relief for empty new build to help to kick-start Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend has made that point development. Labour imposed retrospective business on a range of occasions. It is an issue on which the rate hikes on England’s ports; we scrapped Labour’s authorities will have to decide in each individual case unfair port tax. I recognise, however, that there is still when they look at the licensing. more to do on business rates, which we will balance 817 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 818 with the need to pay off Labour’s vast deficit. At a time charges, and to ensure that parking in town centres is when businesses are looking to grow and help the convenient, safe, secure and affordable. Our new national economy recover, tax stability is vital. online planning guidance, issued for public testing and comment in August, encourages councils to provide Mr Lammy: I want to drag the Minister off ports and more town centre parking spaces and to end anti-shopper back to the high street. The Government are doing a practices. review of the Riot (Damages) Act 1886, and the Minister However, there is still more to do. My right hon. will be aware of the destruction caused to many of our Friends the Secretaries of State for Communities and high streets across the country. In those circumstances, Local Government and for Transport jointly announced it is right for people to receive compensation in relation last month that the Government will publish details of to a crime that was no fault of their own. Will he report further reforms. back to us on where that review has got to? It would be devastating for high streets if we got rid of that Mr Jamie Reed: Will the Minister offer a Marxist compensation. solution with regard to what happens in those communities where town centre parking is principally owned by Brandon Lewis: That is also why it is important that private sector interests? we ensure, in every part of the country, and especially where the riots caused damage, that we get high streets Brandon Lewis: I am not sure why the hon. Gentleman working, bringing back vitality and business. It is also would be so against the private sector, which is what why we postponed the revaluation until 2017, helping to develops businesses and creates jobs. After 13 years, avoid sharp changes and unexpected hikes in rates bills under the previous Government, of decline and failure over the next five years. The biggest beneficiaries from a to deal with the issues, this Government have put together 2015 revaluation would not have been small shops, a package of measures to take matters forward. We are including in the north of England, but prime office now seeing exciting things happening in town centres space in London. City banks would have seen plummeting across the country, with forward-thinking councils— bills, while everyone else would have faced soaring bills generally, good Conservative councils—developing their to pay for it. We have cut taxes for small firms and small town centres for their residents, to give them a product shops, and we are encouraging innovation. Pop-up shops they want to use. are a great way for start-up businesses to enter the high As I said, my right hon. Friends are looking at street. We have provided support through practical further reforms, including stopping CCTV spy cars advice on how to set up pop-up shops. My Department being used for on-street parking enforcement. We also even has its own pop-up shop, which I commend to intend to consult on updating parking enforcement hon. Members wondering what Christmas presents to guidance to support local shops, and on issues such as buy this year. tackling wrongly issued fines, reviewing unnecessary We have also backed the “Love your local market” yellow lines and increasing the grace period for parking campaign. This year’s campaign in May was almost offences. We will empower local residents and councillors, twice the size of the first. More than 700 places ran and stand up for hard-pressed shops. 3,500 markets in England, and many people took the Despite 13 years of Labour Government efforts to opportunity to try trading for the first time. Dates have control everything from the centre, we should all recognise already been announced for 2014, so “Love your local that there is only so much that Government can do. market” is well on its way to becoming an annual event. Councils should work to encourage and support high Markets have an important part to play in a vibrant streets by using the powers they already have, particularly town centre. We will do our part by continuing to put in on business rates and parking. Local government, businesses place the framework that will allow local government, and communities need to work together to create their businesses and communities to develop their own vision local version of the future high street that is right for and solutions, driven by their circumstances and needs. their community, harnessing the energy and enthusiasm We are keen to see the creation of more business of local people who best understand the unique needs improvement districts, given their significant potential and opportunities of their community, rather than having to revitalise town centres. We have also consulted on a one-size-fits-all approach. plans for property owners to have a greater role in The Opposition motion is in the wrong direction for revitalising their high streets though their involvement our high streets and our country.The coalition Government in business improvement districts. This week I was are standing up for local shops and local shoppers, with delighted to announce that British BIDs will be operating lower charges, lower taxes and less red tape. We are the £500,000 business improvement districts loan fund. giving a helping hand to allow our town centres to The fund is now open for business and will be offering thrive and prosper in a modern age. I urge the House to loans up to £50,000 to prospective districts that want reject the motion. help with set-up costs. We cannot avoid one important fact. For many people 5.15 pm going to a town centre, there is a need to park. Parking Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): I is vital to modern high streets. Councils must recognise must say that that was a— the influence of their parking policies on the viability of high streets, and adjust those policies accordingly. We Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I are taking steps to tackle the draconian parking charges forgot to mention that I am imposing a seven-minute and enforcement that we inherited. We have removed speaking limit. previous requirements in planning guidance to set parking fees that are designed specifically to discourage car use. Dame Joan Ruddock: How many seconds did you Our guidance now encourages authorities to set competitive take, Mr Deputy Speaker? 819 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 820

Mr Deputy Speaker: I may take a few more. [Laughter.] Let me put the situation in context. Lewisham is the 31st borough in England in the indices of multiple Dame Joan Ruddock: That was a deeply depressing deprivation. That is very serious. Two of the wards that speech from the Minister. He has done absolutely nothing cover the high street are among the 10% most deprived to deal with the issues affecting my high street. I should in England. Is this, I ask the Minister, a community that mention that in 2005, Deptford high street was voted needs betting shops and payday lenders? Is this not in the best high street in London. We really do have a fact people preying on the most vulnerable in our problem with the Minister and his Government. society and causing them to lead lives that are even Two years ago, I presented a 10-minute rule Bill to more wretched than some of them were in the beginning? amend the use classes order. I did so because of a We find this utterly unacceptable, and the Minister has petition signed by 1,000 people who lived close to the given us no hope today that he is going to do anything high street, and who were amazed that the council about it. [Interruption.] Yes, he is making it worse. could do nothing to stop the proliferation of betting Let me spell it out. In Deptford High street, Nos. 14, shops. There were seven in the high street itself, and five 37, 38 to 40, 44, 48 to 50, 52, 60, 70, 72, 93 to 95, 175 in adjoining streets. We noticed an increase in drug and 206 are all either a betting shop, a payday loan shop dealing, drunkenness, abusive behaviour, begging and or a pawn shop. Does the Minister honestly believe this intimidation. Unlike the financial institutions that they is what local people want? Is this not the Government had replaced—the banks and the building societies—the again refusing to act in the interests of local people, and new occupiers stayed open for longer hours and throughout backing big business against small traders? the weekend, including Sundays. The character of our high street has been seriously damaged by the behaviour Having said all those negative things, we have a very of people using those facilities. vibrant and robust community, with people who want to see their community thrive, who want to open small Alex Cunningham: Does my right hon. Friend think businesses, who want to shop in small businesses, and that the Government actually understand the havoc who have organised among themselves an annual Deptford that betting shops and local loan shops are wreaking on X festival, as we have lots of artists in the area. This is a many people’s lives? We do not need any more of them. community that deserves better from this Government. Is it not time that we were tougher on them, and started We have a new library, we have a new school, we have a to promote proper shops instead? new public square; they are all sitting there on the high street. We have done many of the things the Minister Dame Joan Ruddock: Absolutely. I think that the urges local authorities to do. Currently, the Lewisham Minister made it obvious that he does not understand local authority is spending a grant from the Mayor of what is going on. London with match funding of £2 million, but I ask the At the time, all our objections related to betting Minister this: what is the point of doing all that and at shops. The bookmakers themselves denied the association the same time ruining the high street through this between betting shop clusters and antisocial behaviour, proliferation of very undesirable businesses? I am not yet there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. A leaked against gambling, and I have certainly borrowed money memo from William Hill instructs staff myself—although not at the rates of interest of payday “not to contact the police when…customers…damage machines…to loaners—but there is a limit to how many of these reduce the number of reports to the police”. shops we actually need in any one place, and the limit So we really know that there is a problem in our high needs to be set. streets. It is clear to me that the planning laws need to be Government Ministers promised to take us seriously. strengthened in the interests of local people, and not My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham done away with in the way that the Government propose. (Mr Lammy) and I had several debates in which Ministers stood there and said they would take the issue seriously, Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I have heard that that they understood it, and that something would be recently, in East Ham high street, someone smashed up done. The Conservative website promises to a machine and there was no report to the police for “put…power in the hands of local people” exactly the reason that my right hon. Friend has mentioned: and describes the big society as promising the betting shop chain wants to minimise the number of reports to the police of antisocial behaviour. “a massive transfer of power from Whitehall to local communities.” What hypocrisy is this! Dame Joan Ruddock: The people who own such Local people are crying out for a change in policy to premises will not take responsibility, and in some senses end the ruination of our high streets and to return the they are unable to do so. That is the problem. Where high streets to places with the diversity and vibrancy there are betting shop clusters, there is associated antisocial that our community and many others have to offer. behaviour, and none of us has the powers to tackle it. Nothing less than Labour’s proposals to do something As my right hon. Friend says, even the police are not about the use classes order, to create a situation whereby being informed. It is an absolute scandal. a local council can respond to local needs, is going to When the local campaign began, the concern was solve the problems and meet the wishes of local people. entirely about betting shops. Why did the financial The Minister needs to explain to us tonight why institutions leave our community? They left because under this Government local people can have no say in they were not making enough money, because people in their local community development and their local high Deptford do not have enough money to enable banks street, and not have their wishes for their shopping and building societies to thrive. So what do we have patterns and the needs of their community met. That is now? We have institutions that are taking the very the challenge to this Government, and they need to say money that those people did not have in the first place. something better than what the Minister said in his As I have said, it is an absolute scandal. opening speech tonight. 821 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 822

5.23 pm Many leases still include upward-only rent reviews and we have to do something about that. We have talked Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): I about it in this place for a very long time but it is crazy commend the Opposition on bringing forward this motion. that many businesses under great pressure, one of which This is a timely debate and I am grateful to have the I am dealing with in Northampton at the moment, have opportunity to contribute. I wish to make two points, leases with upward-only rent reviews. I appeal to local but first please allow me to say that in the last Parliament, government and to local property owners to recognise in ancient history, I chaired a commission on the whole the iniquity of such clauses in leases. business of strategies for successful town centres. My foreword started by saying: Out-of-town developments have, of course, been a problem for town centres. Between 2008 and 2012—so “Our town and city centres lie at the heart of our communities and are as vital to their health as the heart is to the body.” both Front-Bench teams are implicated—approximately 2.4 million square metres of additional shopping centre That explains my commendation to the Opposition for retail space were added to the planning department’s choosing this debate. work. Both Governments are responsible, and we should Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): The not try to knock spots off each other on this issue. Both hon. Gentleman is making a valid point. Does he Governments are responsible for adding out-of-town accept that it was the Conservatives who allowed out-of- retail space in massive amounts. We need to recognise town shopping centres, which have been the reason for the impact that that has on our town centres, as I have the town centres in my area collapsing as places of retail said before. opportunity? Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does my Mr Binley: I understand the point about out-of-town hon. Friend agree that one of the particular problems shopping centres, and I will come to that, but neither arises where the council owns the plot on which people party in government has anything to crow about in this wish to build their new out-of-town centre and will get direction. I urge this Government to be more positive. the money from their doing so? Turning this into a party political battle does not help Mr Binley: I always agree with my hon. Friend and I when we analyse the real causes, but I am grateful for am grateful for his support in this area of policy. the hon. Gentleman’s question. Having said that out-of-town development has been I wish to make two simple points, the first of which is immensely harmful, not least in the imbalance of valuation about the high rents and leases in town centres, especially of rate, I shall come on to the damage done by local in relation to out-of-town developments. Business rates government. Councils have been the major enemy of on non-domestic properties on the high street are still our town centres for 30 years. That applies to Labour massively too high. We have not caught up with the councils, Liberal councils and Conservative councils. point that the hon. Gentleman was making, which was Let me explain why. They have allowed the gradual that the value of retail sites has moved yet we still think decline through ring roads, isolating town centres and our town centres are the thumping heart of retail. If we making it difficult for people to get there. I have already continue to think that, we will drive retailers out of made the point about out-of-town developments. Parking town centres completely. So we need to be very aware of charges have been seen as revenue income, although business rates on non-domestic properties in high streets, parking areas were built as a service to shoppers. At last which are still too high. They are also based on pre-credit- our councils are beginning to appreciate that. Building crunch valuations, so let us get real. parking areas on the other side of the ring road so that Bill Esterson: The hon. Gentleman is making an shoppers have to push their trolley across the ring road important point about business rates. Recently, I had to does not make a great deal of sense from a planning write to the Minister about the Valuation Office Agency perspective. and the long delays faced by some businesses. Does he Poor planning—piecemeal planning—has denuded agree that that has been a problem? The hon. Gentleman our town centres dramatically. One of the problems is mentioned the pre-credit-crunch valuations. Does he that a new planning officer will come along with his agree that urgent action needs to be taken to deal with own little pet scheme, which he will implement without that problem? The Government have stepped in on any reference to the heritage of the town or the style of individual cases, but as a general point it is a real the building. Planning officers are supposed to be the problem. protectors of our heritage, our good open spaces and our buildings, yet they too have been a disaster for Mr Binley: I cannot make the point I made about 30 years in many of our town centres. I know people businesses being driven out of town centres because of who have gone down to their town centre, managed to high rates without accepting the hon. Gentleman’s point, get across the ring road, seen the new developments and and I am happy to do so. felt that it was not their town at all. The new development Small business rate relief is still made a mystery to gave no understanding of the heritage of the town. many local businesses in our town centres. We have not We need local government to recognise that it has a given it the push it needs and deserves, and many of the responsibility to ensure that our town centres are more opportunities remain unclaimed by small businesses. I user-friendly, to ensure that people can get in and out of urge the Government, and us all, to do more to bring them easily, to ensure that parking charges are low so small business rate relief to the attention of many small that people can come in to shop, and to ensure that we businesses which have struggled through the recession bring people back into our town centres. Too many and now see light at the end of the tunnel but need all local government offices have been shoved outside with the help they can get. Similarly, small businesses are less that new retail development. There is much more that equipped to deal with red tape and with the lease we can do. If anybody wants to read the report, I would negotiations than large retailers and their resources. be delighted. 823 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 824

5.33 pm technology on the high street. Most importantly, he calls for a radical overhaul of business rates. To illustrate Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): I congratulate the that point, we learned yesterday that inflation now Minister on gaining responsibility for the Government’s means that business rates will increase in April by 3.2%. high street policy. I take the opportunity to declare an According to my analysis, that will add an extra £200 million interest. Later this year, before Christmas, I am opening to the bills of hard-pressed retailers—not all business; a high street shop. My wife and I are establishing just retailers. The truth is that we pay the highest Danczuk’s Delicatessen on Rochdale’s high street. You property taxes in the European Union. By 2015 the are invited to come and try our wares, Mr Speaker, as Treasury will have received more receipts from business are other Members. rates than from council tax. Let me start by talking about Rochdale’s high street. It is suffering just as much as many others across the United Kingdom. It has an average number of empty Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): In the shops, but it lacks diversity. We have too many charity light of what my hon. Friend is saying, does he agree shops, too many “cash a cheque” shops and far too that Labour’s pledge to cut and then freeze business many payday loan companies. Our problems are similar rates would help 1.5 million small business and give to those in other towns, of course, because the overall local shops and retailers a real boost? problem is the economy. The Government have presided over a faltering and, at best, flatlining economy. That is Simon Danczuk: My hon. Friend is correct. That is an what is causing the failure on our high streets. extremely important point. That cut will help significantly. I want to make an important point: the growth in I have seen the damage this is doing in my constituency. underemployment and the increase in temporary, part-time For examples, my local fish and chip shop recently jobs, zero-hours contracts and low-paid work all feed closed and the premises are being advertised with a rent through to the high street. The nature of that work is of £6,000 per annum, but the business rates are £18,722 per the cause of the growth in the number of pawnbrokers annum. and payday loan companies on the high street, and not just in Rochdale, but in towns and cities across the Mark Pawsey: Given what the hon. Gentleman says, United Kingdom. is he disappointed that the motion makes no mention of My hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham reforming the business rates system? (Roberta Blackman-Woods) referred to the Local Data Company’s research, rightly published today, which shows that although chain stores and multiples are in Simon Danczuk: Business rates are clearly mentioned decline, the number of independent retailers is increasing. in the motion, and Labour Front Benchers have made it That shows—again, this is a reflection of the economy—that clear that there will be a review of business rates under a the people who have been made redundant over the past Labour Government. couple of years have used their redundancy money to Postponing the revaluation of business rates does be entrepreneurial and to set up shops. I do not decry nothing to help small businesses. Because of this that point, because it is an effect of what has been going postponement, retailers in Rochdale are subsidising on in the economy, but it has caused churn and flux on retailers on Regent street in London. That is unacceptable. our high streets. The Government often say that rate relief can be a Another important point about the economy is the subsidy, but it does not even apply to the vast majority living standards crisis that the Government have caused. of retailers right across this country. According to the They cannot take £1,500 a year off the average working Office for National Statistics, in the period between this family and expect that not to have an impact on the Government coming to power and 2015, businesses will high street. The consequence is a major drop in consumer pay an extra £6.5 billion in business rates on top of confidence, and it has certainly changed shopping habits. what they were already paying. That, too, is having a direct impact. The Government and the Minister need to listen to I admit that it is not all the Government’s fault—internet what is being said. Let me give some examples. The hon. shopping has had an impact, of course—but I believe Member for Witham (Priti Patel) has spoken about this that they have a laissez-faire attitude towards our high and, I understand, has written to the Chancellor asking streets and that is causing many of the problems. We him to speed up the revaluation of business rates. This have seen their Portas review. The problem is that it has week the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) has not had much of an impact. They ignored Mary Portas’s written in his local newspaper that he is going to speak comments on business rates, which I think was a mistake. to the Communities and Local Government Secretary The Portas pilots and the review have now become about the problem with business rates. The hon. Member mired in problems and scandals about how much she for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady) has said that was paid by Channel 4 and whether Channel 4 and the business rates are causing real problems and need urgent programme producers had any involvement in liaising reform. The hon. Member for Watford (Richard with the Department about where the pilots should be. Harrington) has said that business rates should be What I think the Government have learned from that linked to the consumer prices index rather than the episode is that reality TV is no way to develop Government retail prices index. The hon. Member for Nuneaton policy. (Mr Jones) has said: The Government would do better by listening to Bill “Friends in the Treasury should consider freezing business Grimsey’s alternative high street review. He talks about rates…and give a fighting chance to small businesses.” the need for stronger local leadership, better local analysis The fact will not be missed that all those hon. Members of what is going on in local areas and better use of are Conservatives. It is not only Opposition Members 825 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 826 who think that business rates should be radically reformed, sector? If we give it to the high street, will we also want revised and changed to help small businesses; Government to give it to Tesco Express? The Government have to Members think so too. face up to those legitimate problems. Let me conclude by echoing the good point made by As the hon. Member for Northampton South my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Mr Binley) said, very little money is being made on the (Yasmin Qureshi). When the Labour leader recently high street at present, and the amount of money that announced that a future Labour Government would was made in the past will never be made again. The big first reduce business rates and then freeze them, Bill chains recognise that and are altering their retail model. Grimsey, a well-known local retailer, said that Labour They have reduced their high street presence and will was the first party to demonstrate that it gets it. When not come back in the same numbers. Ultimately, we will the Government get it and cut business rates? cannot ignore that issue, but we cannot address it locally. 5.42 pm In some way or another, we must look to the Government John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I want to start in consensual to come up with a solution. That will involve the mode by congratulating the tablers of the motion and Department for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) on which, judging from its comments so far, is relatively putting business rates firmly on the agenda. sympathetic; the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which is broadly sympathetic, unless it is I have had many discussions about the high street lobbied hard by the big traders; and, specifically, the with traders and experts such as landlords and agents. I Treasury, which can be fairly unbending on this subject. serve on the Communities and Local Government The Minister needs to set up a cross-departmental Committee, as does the hon. Gentleman. We have meeting that involves the retail sectors, joins up the interviewed Mary Portas, civil servants, and Ministers initiatives—not the silly ones, such as those centred on of all shapes and sizes. We have talked about the threat parking on double yellow lines—and takes action on of the internet, the perennial problem of parking, out- rates. If the Minister does that, I think he will become of-town shopping, pop-up shops, council policy and the the hero of the high street. The high street can get more like, but again and again we get back to business rates, savvy with the web, diversify more, hold more events which make it hard for businesses to start in the high and extend or vary its hours, but with the albatross of street and hard for them to survive when the going gets business rates around its neck it simply cannot thrive. tough. The Federation of Small Businesses has raised this 5.46 pm issue, as have the retail sector bodies. They are concerned not only about the actual rate but, as the hon. Member Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): It is a for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) said, the problems of pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Southport revaluation and appeals against current valuations, which (John Pugh) and to participate in this debate. I regret take an inordinate amount of time. When I raised the partisan tone used by the Under-Secretary of State revaluation during Business, Innovation and Skills questions for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member not long ago, I think in the previous Session, the Minister, for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) with regard to the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), this important matter and in response to the constructive said, more or less—I paraphrase—“Be careful what you approach taken by my hon. Friend the Member for City wish for: they may go up.” I cannot help thinking that of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) towards the he lives in a parallel universe or does not visit the high real problems faced by communities up and down the street all that often. country. Back Benchers have taken a more conciliatory approach. Fortunately, that is only part of the Government’s policy; other aspects have been outlined. I very much Town centres and our high streets matter: they give us support the move to localise business rates. I like the our sense of place, they tell us who we are and they tell continuation of support for the previous Government’s us a bit about the history of our communities. People policy of business improvement districts. We are getting care passionately for them for those reasons. My one in Southport and I hope it will be very successful. It constituency has lots of little shopping areas and four certainly promises much and is well organised at the main shopping town centres. Crownpoint in Denton is moment. However, they do not provide a reduction in the largest shopping centre, followed by Houldsworth business rates, and that is what is now required. I square in Reddish, King street in Dukinfield and Haughton understand that in the latest spending round the Business Green village. They all face different challenges and Secretary considered moving on, or reducing, high street have done for the past 25 years or more. rateable values. On planning changes, which have been touched on by the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), Mr Donohoe: The rates for a small restaurant in the the trend for out-of-town shopping had a catastrophic shopping mall in my area are £30,000, but the mall effect on two of the town centres, namely Denton and owner has put the rent at £30,000 as well, so the overall King street. It started in the 1980s with the planning cost—not just the rates—is impacting on the business, free-for-all that led to a large rise in the number of which has to make £60,000 a year before it can start to out-of-town shopping centres. The construction of an make a profit. out-of-town Sainsbury’s in Denton led to a dramatic decrease in town centre trade at Crownpoint, and the John Pugh: The problem, as the hon. Gentleman will construction of a Morrisons in Dukinfield and an Asda be aware, is very specific. If we give a discount or make in Ashton-under-Lyne—on either side of King street—led any kind of reduction to high street retail rates, will that to a dramatic decline in trade on the traditional shopping include the whole retail sector and the out-of town street in Dukinfield. 827 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 828

Richard Fuller: Presumably those places were built More importantly, the town team has led an initiative and have succeeded because that is how people want to to create a new pop-up shop in Denton town centre. We shop. It is now very difficult to unbuild them. What is had a “Dragons’ Den”-style competition to design and the hon. Gentleman’s answer? Does he want to change build a new modular shop. Bill Jennings, the chair of the decisions that people make about how and where the Denton town team, has worked with the council and they shop? the local college on that competition. The winning entry has been built and the planning permission has Andrew Gwynne: Absolutely not. I was going to make been granted for a piece of wasteland opposite what the point that these are long-term trends. We cannot put used to be Denton’s market square. The new pop-up the genie back in the bottle. However, we cannot get shop will be a confectioners where one can buy traditional away from the fact that the way in which we shop has sweets out of a jar, such as a quarter—I still use old changed and one reason for that is the rise in the money—of midget gems. Those are the initiatives being number of out-of-town shopping centres. led by Denton town team. Mr Binley: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we The issue is not only about occupancy rates, however, could have made our town centres much more user-friendly and my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham is and retail-friendly than they are? I recognise that out-of- right about the over-concentration of uses, as that town centres are demand driven, but we could have changes the vibrancy and vitality of our shopping made the retail offer better in our town centres and we streets. In Denton, the problem is less one of payday have failed to do so. lenders and bookmakers than of takeaways. Takeaways are great, and in the evening the main street is thriving Andrew Gwynne: We absolutely could. and vibrant. During the day, however, the shutters are The attempt to put the genie back in the bottle led the down, which gives an impression that Denton in the day previous Government to introduce the sequential test, time is closed for business. We must consider how to which meant that town centre retail development was deal with that. prioritised and only if developments could not be In my final minute I want to talk about the Stockport accommodated in the town centre could developers part of my constituency. Stockport is a Portas pilot look at edge-of-centre or out-of-centre sites. That was town, but the part I represent—Reddish—is concerned an important change. that it might be overlooked because of the concentration The first political campaign that I got involved in as a on Stockport town centre. In partnership with businesses newly elected councillor in 1996 was against the decision in Reddish, town councillors have established the Reddish to close Denton post office, which was located on the business forum. That is a different approach from the market square. We lost that battle and Denton post one taken by the Tameside part of my constituency, but office moved into the Co-op store on the other side of it is having a big impact. Businesses are driving changes the town centre. Overnight, that market lost 25% of its to the high street around Houldsworth square in Reddish footfall and it never recovered. Fewer traders came, so that they do not get left behind. They have organised fewer shoppers came, still fewer traders came and by a fantastic arts festival—ReddFest—which has been 2008, the council had to close Denton market. running for three years, and they have held markets and community events on Houldsworth square. It is working; I am really stating the obvious in saying that shopping that is best practice—local government working with habits have changed over the years. My grandparents business for local communities. Those local communities did a daily food shop. Very few people today have that have the answers and we must trust them to deliver. routine. My parents would do a weekly shop and might That is why I commend the contribution made by those have gone to the shops on a daily basis for odds and on the Labour Front Bench. This is about empowering ends. Today, we buy in bulk. This debate is not just our local communities to do the right thing for our about the rise in internet shopping; the way in which we town centres. live our lives has changed fundamentally. Although I agree with the hon. Member for Several hon. Members rose— Northampton South about the impact of planning decisions and about rents and rates, I disagree with him Mr Speaker: Order. To try to accommodate all remaining on the role of local government. There is some very colleagues who are interested in speaking in the debate, good practice out there. I will spend a few minutes I must reduce the time limit for each Back-Bench speech talking about two examples in my constituency. Labour- to five minutes, with immediate effect. controlled Tameside metropolitan borough council has established town teams in its five main town centres of 5.56 pm Ashton-under-Lyne, Denton, Droylsden, Hyde and Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): I welcome today’s debate Stalybridge. Those are not Portas pilots, but were established because we can all agree that high streets and town and on the initiative of the council. They are all different in city centres are vital to local economies, and I put it to their make-up and have different priorities for their the House that this Government are committed to town centres. seeing them improve. The issues faced by our town I suppose that I should declare an interest as a proud centres did not start in 2010. There were concerns in the member of the Denton town team. We have developed high street well before then, and I do not recall any a vision for Denton that is unique to Denton. We have initiatives to support town centres from the Labour organised some town team events. We had a party in party when it was in government. Victoria park over the summer to celebrate the centenary I will focus my remarks on the threat to town centres of that fine piece of civic open space, we are holding an from out-of-town retail and internet shopping, both of Oktoberfest this month and we have started to organise which did not start only three years ago. Given the the Christmas lights and events for the town centre. threat from out-of-town retail, it is right to have a 829 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 830

“town centre first” policy, and last year when considering Localism could have happened at any time in the the national planning policy framework, the Communities 13 years under Labour, but it did not. It is rich of and Local Government Committee was insistent that Labour Members to lecture the Government on the such a policy should be included. It is important to local agenda when they centralised power with the ensure that if development can take place in a town national planning policy framework. As my hon. Friend centre, it should do so over development on other sites. has said, neighbourhood plans give local communities a I am often asked why I am so supportive of a “town greater say in what happens in their high streets. centre first” policy, but anyone who has visited the The motion mentions betting shops. One question United States, where there are few planning controls, Labour Members need to answer is whether they would will see holed-out town and city centres, with doughnutted prefer a vacant unit or a betting shop that brings people different shopping developments round the outside. and life into the town centre. My constituency of Rugby is faced with an interesting There is no denying that the future of the high street dilemma, namely the proposed redevelopment of an and our town centres is an urgent matter. It is entirely existing out-of-town centre, with a firm commitment right that we should discuss it today. It is important that for a department store to be located out of town. In local authorities have a progressive attitude and take Rugby we have aspired to a department store for more positive steps to bring forward development that sustains than 30 or 40 years—I well remember a vacant site in life within town centres. the town centre awaiting such a development, but it did not come. We now have the opportunity to take that development out of town, or not at all, and I regret that 6.2 pm we will be doing the right thing in taking it out of town. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East I will speak later about the importance of accepting Cleveland) (Lab): My constituency has a string of individual new housing and how that can support retail. The settlements with local high streets or estate precinct proposal from my local authority to accept new housing shopping provision. The high streets in Middlesbrough means that we will have sufficient customers both for and East Cleveland face two challenges—one long-standing the enhancement of existing out-of-town retail, and to challenge and another relatively recent one. support our existing town centre. The long-standing challenge is out-of-town shopping, Reference has been made to internet shopping. That which began in my area under the previous Conservative is increasingly becoming the norm and town centres Government, when the Teesside Development Corporation must adapt. Broadly, I believe that if 12% or 15% of built Teesside shopping park. We acknowledge that retail purchases are conducted over the internet, town that was a good thing for the local area and that it centres must reduce the size of the shopping available provided lots of employment, but in the short to by a similar amount. The alternative is to grow a medium term, there was no plan for high streets in population. If we grow our population, we can defend Middlesbrough, East Cleveland and Stockton to deal the size of our existing town centre. A progressive with the effects of out-of-town shopping, an American Conservative council in Rugby is building 1,300 new phenomenon. homes at the gateway site. Further developments will result in 6,200 new homes. Communities cannot legitimately The second challenge is the growth of web-based speak of their disappointment with high street decline if retailing, with goods delivery to the door. Neither threat they are unwilling to accept the need for additional new can be engineered out of existence. They are a fact of housing in their areas. life enshrined in past planning decisions and the advance of new technology. Therefore, if our local high streets in On high street development, I welcome the Mary Guisborough, Loftus, Skelton and Brotton are to survive Portas review. The Communities and Local Government as proper retail outlets, and not just as monolithic Committee looked closely at her report. I was pleased parades of hot food takeaways, betting shops and charity that she drew attention to the fact that what happens in outlets, imaginative thinking is required. We need both town centres is about much more than businesses, and to be flexible with our built high street environment and that we need to look at our town centres from a wider to have the support mechanisms to ensure that high perspective, considering open spaces, libraries, coffee streets are allowed to remain competitive. shops and the night-time economy. Although she has received criticism for failing to follow through on her One concern is the erosion, as a result of cuts to local proposals, she should be praised for highlighting those council funding and changes to the regeneration framework things and for engaging in discussions on the future of imposed in the name of blind ideology, of the support our town centres. that local authorities and regeneration agencies could provide. One example of that erosion can be seen in the The motion refers to localism and criticises the main shopping area in my constituency, Guisborough, Government, but which party pioneered the localism where support from the local authority, Redcar and agenda and introduced the Localism Act 2011? This Cleveland borough council, in the shape of help from Government have given power to more people. borough-wide high street managers, is no more. An Mr Marcus Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that ambitious programme underpinned by the then regional neighbourhood planning has made a massive difference development agency, the market towns initiative, has to localism, and that it can be applied to our town disappeared along with the RDA. centres and high streets? We are also hampered by a lack of support from the finance and insurance industries regarding the conversion Mark Pawsey: My hon. Friend makes a good point. of upper floors of older retail premises, where traditionally We have a frontrunner in neighbourhood planning in a 1900s shopkeeper and his family lived. New housing is my constituency, which is looking into the provision of hampered by soaring insurance premiums, as insurers local retail. declare that such occupation provides a security risk to 831 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 832

[Tom Blenkinsop] 6.7 pm Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I welcome today’s the shop below, even though the new families could debate. High streets and town centres are vital to every provide a form of watchman service if there were attempts constituency. Many that were once vibrant face immense at intrusion. challenges from the pressures of structural change, such The worst threat comes from the approach of the as the year-on-year double-digit growth in online retail Department for Communities and Local Government, and the continued growth of out-of-town retail. I had which sees any form of development and occupancy, hoped that the motion would contain helpful measures, however much it would harm the ambience, style, but it seems to be concerned with political ideology set attractiveness and vitality of the high street and the on dictating to individuals what they might want, rather traditional retailers, as necessary to provide fig leaf than providing the answers to the problems that our support for the proposition that the Government’s economic high streets and town centres face. policies are bearing fruit—even if that fruit is a poisoned I commend the Government for removing permitted apple for neighbouring businesses. Successive changes development rights, which are referred to in the motion, to use class orders and permitted development rights from our town centres. One of the biggest issues we are eroding the powers needed by local authorities and have is an oversupply of retail and office space, particularly local communities to shape their high streets and town in secondary areas—a problem that a lot of people do centres to reflect local needs, demands and aspirations. not like to admit. There is a lack of footfall in these The changes to once unquestioned and accepted planning areas and a lack of maximisation of available time. For rules are making it possible for payday lenders, betting example, there is often not a very good early evening shops and fast food takeaways to open without getting economy. It is an excellent idea, therefore, to allow the kind of planning permission which, complete with landlords to turn commercial property into residential provisions, enabled a balanced stance to change and property. We need far more people to live in most town development in a retail setting. centres to create that footfall and that early-evening economy. Imposing a laissez-faire approach that deregulates As for limiting certain use classes, there is a real risk change of use so that no such permissions are required of unintended consequences. Across the country, many merely leads to bad neighbour problems for everyone of our struggling town centres have more of the use and encourages fly-by-night forms of unsustainable classes that the hon. Member for City of Durham development that cash in on passing social trends, with (Roberta Blackman-Woods) mentioned, so what she no thought to encouraging organic change for the better advocates could destabilise town centres. Of the use in the host setting. One such example is the spread of classes the Opposition have a problem with, one is pawnbrokers and cheque-cashing outlets as a result of payday lending. I must admit that I am not overly keen widespread poverty and the need to realise assets simply on payday lending; it has its place, but the regulation to get some cash to feed a family. Such changes are needs to be looked at. The Government are doing that, often cumulative—one outlet selling cheap booze or hot however, and that is a far better way of dealing with food takeaways is often followed by a competitor. The payday lending than saying, “Youcan’t be in a particular same is true of the finance industry, which has followed town centre because of planning regulations.”I mentioned a pattern of migration from a specific A2 business the structural change in retailing, but there has been a enclave to a former Al shop front entry high street structural change in bookmaking too; bookmakers have presence, thus suffocating the chance of niche retailers shifted from the periphery and secondary areas to primary opening in their stead. areas, because as town centres have become more difficult to fill, landlords have reduced rents, bringing bookmakers Use class orders have been vital to protecting public on to the high street. We need to consider both industries health. It is the application of such orders by local carefully, because we do not want to end up with more councils, including those in my constituency, that has empty shops, fewer jobs and less VAT, national insurance barred hot food takeaways from opening near school and corporation tax being paid. gates. Without such controls, that could again become a problem and have a long-term detrimental impact on Mark Pawsey: Would my hon. Friend rather see a children’s health. As I know from my constituency vacant unit or one occupied by a bookmaker? postbag, such matters are high on the agenda of concern for my constituents. It is far better to keep some forms Mr Jones: My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is of control regarding the use and make-up of our high for individuals to choose whether to use bookmakers, streets, while at the same time tackling the real problems but there is obviously a market for them and they create facing small retailers: constant increases in business jobs on the high street. At the end of the day, would we rates, lack of any real tangible support from bankers rather have somewhere empty and possibly boarded up, and insurers, and constant rent increases that are often or a bookmaker? I know which I would choose. I would determined by remote financial institutions such as big choose to have the property occupied. The Opposition pension funds, which seek to maximise income at the Front-Bench team grimace, but from how they have expense of quality of life. been talking about our high streets and town centres, one would think there was 100% occupancy and that Labour’s pledge to cut and then freeze business rates these businesses were forcing out other businesses. If will help 1.5 million small businesses, many of which the hon. Member for City of Durham came out to high are in retail premises. That will give local shops a real streets and town centres across the country, she would boost, unlike the pursuit of the chimera of a laissez-faire, know that high streets are struggling and that there are kick-start approach that exists only within the heads of a lot of empty units. Those businesses are not forcing Government Front Benchers. people out, as she insinuates. 833 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 834

I know from speaking to local businesses that business going to out-of-town shopping centres for a number of rates are a challenge. Although many of the secondary reasons, not least the convenience of being able to buy areas in my constituency town centre benefit from the everything under one roof, so whether we have car small business rate relief—I am glad the Government parking charges or not is somewhat irrelevant. I also have extended that until 2014, a policy that Labour thought it was odd that he said it was okay for privately opposed, and that some of those small businesses will owned car parks to charge for parking, but not for receive £2,000 towards their national insurance bill, councils to do the same. which will be very welcome—there is a challenge for Crosby has a similar issue to Maghull with empty small businesses in primary areas of town centres, where units. Other Members have mentioned the number of they do not benefit from the rate relief. We need to look charity shops, which is a particular issue in Formby, at that carefully to see what we can do to help those which has something like 14 charity shops. Some of small businesses. This is a complex area, but I am them sell the same, new goods as other traders, but they greatly concerned by Labour’s policy and how it would do not compete on a level playing field, because the cost pay for it. It advocates scrapping the Government’s base for charity shops is that much lower, as they pay pro-business, pro-jobs reduction in corporation tax, only 20% of business rates and are staffed by volunteers. which would be a retrograde step. It wants to send the I do not wish to criticise charities and their need to raise message to businesses that we are closed for business funds, but that is a real issue. and inward investment and to halt the progress that the All three town centres in my constituency share similar Government are making. We have already created problems, but they also have opportunities. Formby 1.4 million new jobs. and Crosby are half a mile from the beach and have I would have liked to raise several other issues today, opportunities to attract the many visitors to the area, but in general, the motion offers very little in the way of particularly in the summer. Crosby has the famous solutions for high streets and causes me concern about “Another Place” statues by Antony Gormley on the the direction of Labour policy in wanting to control beach. People come to visit the statues, but they do not individuals. I will certainly be opposing the motion know where to go afterwards. tonight. Andrew Gwynne: Is that not precisely the reason why we should trust local communities to develop their own 6.14 pm visions for their own town centres? Each town centre is Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The answer to unique and will have a different answer to how to the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) about how revitalise the community. to pay for business rates is to grow the economy. If he listens to what retailers and other businesses are saying, Bill Esterson: My hon. Friend has linked the two he will also know that business rates are at the top of points. We need to trust local communities to come up their list of problems, which is why what is said in the with answers, because they all have different opportunities. motion moved by the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend I have mentioned the opportunity to link the beach and the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman- the visitor economy to support the high streets in Formby Woods), is the right thing to do. and Crosby, but equally—this has come out a number of times—local people do not want more legal loan I want to talk about the retailers in the three town sharks, bookies or fast-food takeaways taking over at centres in my constituency, in Formby, Crosby and every available opportunity. They want to see high-quality Maghull. Like others, we have enthusiastic and energetic retailers encouraged into high streets and to support local retailers who are committed to their local communities good local traders, not necessarily payday loan companies, and work incredibly hard. Many of them do an excellent bookmakers or fast-food takeaways when there are too job and run superb businesses, but they are desperate many of them. for improvements to be made to our town centres and desperate for the kind of support that we have been We have some good businesses, as I have said. Each discussing today to be given sooner rather than later. of the three areas is underpinned by a medium-sized They want to take advantage of the opportunities that supermarket. However, even having a supermarket in are available, not just to deal with the challenges they the town centre is no guarantee of support for other face. traders, because people tend to do all their shopping under the one roof, so whether it is out of town or not, We have talked a lot today about those challenges the resulting problem seems to be similar. and some of the difficulties. The three high streets that I I have been asking businesses in my communities represent face similar challenges, albeit with slightly what they want. Dealing with business rates was top of different issues. The town of Maghull has a small the agenda, but the second item was economic growth supermarket with a parade of shops—people have to linked to the cost of living. An energy price freeze and cross the road to get to the main part of the town regulation of the energy market—another flagship Labour centre—and has the second part of the Portas funding, policy—are exactly what retailers and businesses want backed up by funding from the local council. Crosby to see, because energy represents one of their biggest also has funding from round two of the Portas pilot, costs. which is backed by the local council as well. In Maghull the town council has got involved—it has tried to use Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend said that business pop-up shops—but recognises that this is only a short-term rates were a factor for his businesses. Is it not part of the fix. problem that no business rate revaluation has taken I have to say to the Minister—or I would have, but he place and that many of those businesses are still considered is no longer in the Chamber—that car parking is not the to be in prime shopping areas, when in fact those areas issue in the town centres that I represent. People are are anything but that? 835 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 836

Bill Esterson: My hon. Friend reminds me of a point case, the problem has happened already. The proposals that I was going to make. Business rates and rents are that the hon. Member for City of Durham put forward very high in the town centres, but we only have to go a would not help. Is Labour looking for the compulsory few hundred yards down the side streets to see a different closure of the betting shops and payday lenders that are picture emerging. People can afford the rents and rates already there? If those shops are so bad, perhaps they there, and businesses are doing much better because should just ban them outright. If they are the curse of their cost base is so much lower. He is absolutely right the high street, perhaps they should legislate to get rid to suggest that we cannot afford to wait for that revaluation of them. Labour is not proposing to do that, however. to take place. People are already on their knees and Hon. Members will have a view on whether there are hanging on by their fingernails, if that is not too many too many of them; I suggest that the legislation we have metaphors for one sentence. They certainly need that to look at is not the Localism Act 2011 or anything that help right now. has come from the Department for Communities and Business rates are certainly the No. 1 issue when I Local Government. The problems are the consequence talk to retailers and small businesses, and when I talk to of the Gambling Act 2005, which was passed by the representatives of the Federation of Small Businesses, Labour Government. That is where the quarrel of the as I do from time to time. Businesses need help, whether hon. Member for City of Durham quarrel should lie. through business rates, through proper banking support The hon. Lady did not mention the chambers of involving going back to the old-fashioned bank manager commerce in her speech. In fact, she was dismissive of acting as an adviser, through having a mentor to encourage the work of the town teams and did not focus on them and support them, or through the local council and at all. What we hear when we get representatives of the others in the community helping them to make the most chambers of commerce and businesses round the table of the opportunities. That is how we will revitalise our are suggestions for initiatives similar to the one described town centres. More payday loan companies, bookmakers by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew and fast-food takeaways are not the answer. Gwynne) in his interesting speech. In those initiatives, we see people coming together to plan events, to create something special and unique in the town centre that 6.21 pm will bring people back into it. It is lots of those sorts of Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): We initiatives that will reverse the trends seen in many all represent very different communities, and our town towns, particularly Folkestone in my constituency, where centres will be different as well. Those of us whose there is under-trading and people leave the town to do constituencies contain multiple towns will know that their shopping elsewhere. The challenge we face is to there can be great differences even within a few miles. bring more of those people back in. We cannot get away from the two major trends that everyone has talked about—namely, the impact of out- Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): My hon. of-town shopping and the impact of internet shopping. Friend makes a powerful case. Does he agree that Those factors are not going to go away. No one is business improvement districts, such as the ones in my proposing legislation to move the big sheds into the Truro and Falmouth constituency, provide good local town centres or to ban the use of the internet as a solutions to the need to improve our town centres? shopping tool; it would be ridiculous if they did. Those factors make the challenge all the greater, because we Damian Collins: My hon. Friend makes a very good have to make shopping in the town centre an experience. point, which feeds into the debate on business rates, on In the old days, people regarded the town centre as a which I shall touch. Calling for a big cut in business destination in its own right. Now, it is an experience rates is bold, is supported by the business community that they go for, during which they might undertake and amounts to a very big tax cut. Like all tax cuts, it some shopping as well. The shadow Minister, the hon. has to be provided for. What we have seen so far from Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods), the Government are cuts in taxes for small and large is nodding. She will not be doing so in a moment. businesses. We have seen targeted relief through enterprise I set up the town team in Folkestone in response to zones and regional growth funds, which help businesses the Government’s Portas pilot initiative. That brought on the high street as well as those in other locations. We together the local authority, local politicians, the local have seen more work done, too, on business improvement business community, the chambers of commerce, local districts. That support has been targeted in the areas independent traders and the national chains that operate where it can really help. in the town, and allowed them to start to think about What we have seen from the Opposition side is a “rob the sort of town centre experience they wanted. We set Peter to pay Paul” exercise between the business up that town team the best part of two years ago and, in communities—taking from some businesses and giving that time, I have never been part of a conversation that it to other businesses in a short-term and small way, focused, in the way that the hon. Lady’s did, almost which I do not believe will make any difference at all. It exclusively on payday lending shops and bookmakers. I is by working together through business improvement have never sat in a meeting with business people and districts and through supporting all businesses with tax heard them say, “The problem with this town is that we cuts that we will see the changes that we need. Ultimately, are being pushed out by betting shops.” good local plans will be the answer, as the towns come Some hon. Members might feel that they have too together to say, “This is the sort of experience we want many betting shops, takeaways and payday lenders in to create.” their constituencies. We heard the speech by the right Members have been absolutely right to highlight the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan issue of parking. Guidelines from the last Government Ruddock), who set out her case passionately. In her undoubtedly encouraged local authorities to reduce the 837 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 838 number of cars in towns by encouraging people not to deal with threats to shop workers and attacks on them drive into the town centre, by increasing parking charges of the very tragic kind that she just mentioned? and by making it difficult for people to come into the towns to park. That has to be reversed. If we want to Sarah Champion: I absolutely support that campaign meet the challenge posed by out-of-town shopping centres and thank my hon. Friend for mentioning it. or internet shopping, we must make it as easy as possible Now, however, Rotherham high street is swamped for people to come into the town centre and choose to with payday loan shops, which are effectively loan sharks do their shopping physically there, while providing them on the high street. Many of my colleagues have been with a memorable, enjoyable and unique experience. All campaigning for better legislation on payday loan our efforts should be focused on reducing unnecessary companies, which charge in some cases 16,500% interest, charges and burdens. Many of us have fought campaigns without even checking the ability of the person to pay in our own constituencies to keep free on-street parking the money back. Nationally, there are 20% more payday in town centres, to encourage discretionary shopping loan shops than a year ago. One key reason they have and to bring people in. been able to become so prevalent so quickly is that they The town teams and the business improvement districts have been able to take over premises formerly designated have done particularly good work here, for example by for banks and building societies. Being on the high encouraging the roll-out of wi-fi in town centres. We street gives legitimacy to such companies, yet the damage need to make our town centres places where people they can do is well documented. They appear to be a want to live, work and spend their time. We need to quick fix for temporary financial problems, but sadly encourage more people to live in town centres through they often become an extremely expensive burden on change of use so that people, as I say, live, work and the people who can ill afford extortionate repayments. enjoy their leisure time in the town centre. That is part The changes the Government plan could almost be of the new experience that we have to create. seen as a green light for the expansion of payday Folkestone has seen a very successful regeneration of lending and similar companies on the high street. They the old town area, which had seen high levels of closed pave the way for such companies to take over other shops and under-utilised space for many years, through forms of shops, and not just those formerly designated the construction of a new creative quarter in the old for financial organisations. I feel certain that if local town. Occupancy rates have gone up dramatically. In councils were able to determine such matters in conjunction fact, all the properties that have now been refurbished with the community, we would be better able to encourage by the Creative Foundation will be full by the end of more responsible lenders, such as credit unions, to gain October this year. That is a very positive change, which a foothold in this market. Without the controls we has led to a broad programme of exhibitions and events, propose, I fear that yet more of our high streets will and provided reasons for people to come into the town become dominated by outlets that serve only to worsen centre. Such an integrated programme shows how to a spiral of poverty and decline. At the very least, the revitalise our town centres; it will make more of a Government changes will reduce the power of communities difference than anything else. to have a say on the types of shops on their high street. In my final few seconds, let me say that many of us Rotherham is part of the second round of Portas are disappointed that my hon. Friend the Member for towns. As Mary Portas herself said, Northampton South (Mr Binley) was unsuccessful in “when a high street has too much of one thing it tips the balance his campaign to become Deputy Speaker. I know how of the location and inevitably puts off potential retailers and hard he has worked to champion small businesses. The investors”. loss to the House in his not becoming Deputy Speaker We cannot allow that to happen. Local people want the is a gain for us in debate, as we will be able to benefit power to shape their town centres. Rather than creating from his contributions in many more debates to come. a free-for-all in which that power is actively denied, we should work with local businesses, business improvement 6.28 pm districts and others to help to make high streets vibrant Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): Yesterday, my and safe places once again, putting them back in the constituent, Mr Iqbal, a shop owner, was murdered in heart of our communities. Rotherham and another person was seriously injured. I am sure that I speak on behalf of the whole House in 6.31 pm sending my sympathies and condolences to their families and friends. I would also like to congratulate South Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I shall be brief so Yorkshire police on detaining the suspects so quickly. that my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti This debate is about our high streets, but we need to Patel) can also make a contribution. remember the people who work there. We need to give I thank the Minister for his visit to Bedford this week. particular attention to lone workers who are isolated I am sure he would join me in congratulating the and all too often subjected to abuse and violence. These Bedford town team, the Bedford business improvement workers do not enjoy any additional protection in law. I district, and particularly the leader of the Bedford urge hon. Members who are interested in changing that business improvement district, Christina Rowe, who to support my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport has provided strong leadership in difficult circumstances, (Ann Coffey) and sign her early-day motion 529, and I on creating a vibrant response to the Government’s urge the Minister to consider it. incentives and initiatives. I think it was the prospect of the Minister visiting Bedford that got the council belatedly Bill Esterson: Will my hon. Friend join me in the to put through cuts in parking charges in the town Freedom from Fear campaign launched today by the centre. I hope that is just the start of the local council Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers to doing more to reduce parking charges in Bedford. 839 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 840

[Richard Fuller] I have spent 35 years growing on the high street. My parents were shopkeepers, and I am proud to be the I want to address some of the points made by Opposition daughter of shopkeepers. I have seen a great deal of Members. My first admonition to them would be the change on the high street, and I found Labour Members’ old saying, “actions have consequences.” In relation to contributions to the debate somewhat disappointing. this debate, the actions of the previous Government My hon. Friend the Minister rightly said that we should have had consequences that we are seeing today. Will take no lectures from the Labour party when it comes Labour Members recognise that the liberalisation of to the future of the high street. I remember that not so licensing laws, the changes that were put through in the long ago, under the last Government, my parents’ shop Gambling Act 2005, and their Government’s lack of was closed because of Labour’s post office closure control of the massive growth in personal debt during programme. That brought devastation to many their period in office led precisely to some of the concerns communities, including those on the high street. that they are talking about today? As was mentioned by the hon. Member for Rochdale I found their recommendations on stores and the (Simon Danczuk), there has been a great deal of debate selection of stores quite confusing. It was not clear in the House about business rate revaluation. He referred whether they wanted people to choose which stores to the Bill Grimsey report. Bill Grimsey came to Witham were in the town centre, or whether they wanted to tell over the summer to work with my town team, to observe people what stores should be in town centres. Perhaps I the initiatives, and to discuss how we could enhance our can help them by saying that those who want to give high street and town centre. Some very positive people more choice should liberalise and allow people contributions had been made, but business rates were to make their own decisions, but if they want to decide still the No. 1 issue that was being raised by my local which stores are right for people, that is socialism. The shopkeepers. That is hardly surprising, because they socialist selection of stores that we have heard from pose a big challenge. Opposition Members is a flawed policy, which gives While the Minister has been very clear about where new meaning to Marks & Spencer. [Interruption.] I will the Government stand on rate revaluation, I ask him at not give way, as I want my hon. Friend the Member for least to consider at some stage—if not now, hopefully Witham to have the time to make her speech. immediately after 2015—taking a fresh look at the I want to make three suggestions to my hon. Friend issue. I should like him to think about what we can do, the Minister. First, on betting shops—this was the first and when we can introduce reform. In particular, I urge question I asked when I became a Member of him to do something that the Government have been Parliament—will he consider getting rid of fixed-odds doing very successfully thus far, and continue to devolve betting machines, and then act to do so? Such machines more power down to local authorities and communities. create tremendous incentives that make the local retail I ask him to encourage the provision of more support presence of betting shops far more likely. The change is for the survival and growth of local town centres and long overdue. high streets through some of the initiatives which we Secondly, will the Minister think about service quality have already heard about. My hon. Friend the Member in town centres, and about ways of helping them to be for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) mentioned creative in their provision of excellence? One of the not just town teams but business improvement districts. differences between a large store and a small store is the Those are community-led initiatives. We need less state fact that service interaction is much more important to intervention, and more community support and community the success of a small store, and I am not sure that we innovation at the grass roots. That is what will transform are doing enough to create excellence in service. Perhaps our town centres and high streets. some of the initiatives to which Lord Baker has referred There is no doubt that we have done a great deal so could help in that regard. far in terms of discounts on rates. The Government’s Finally, let me suggest that the example of the sentiments are clear: they feel that town centres need “gamesmakers”—the volunteers who, during the Olympics, innovation and entrepreneurialism. We are doing good came together to create a delightful experience for people things in cutting red tape and lowering taxes, which did who wanted to attend the games—could be extended to not happen under the last Government. Businesses in our towns. Perhaps we could create “townsmakers”. As my community and in my constituency know that it we all know, McDonald’s is a purveyor of excellent would never happen under a Labour Government, because service in its restaurants, and it also provided assistance it was their socialist policies that did so much damage in during the London Olympics. I had a very interesting the last Administration. Moreover, it was a former conversation with the franchise holder of McDonald’s Labour authority in my constituency that did a great in my home town. Perhaps the Minister could have a deal of damage to my local high street. We are changing conversation either with Mr Ishmael Anilmis, the franchise that now, which is a very positive development. holder of McDonald’s in Bedford—who is in himself Another issue that has been touched on is the role of an excellent story of progress and entrepreneurship—or neighbourhood plans, which have been reintroduced to with McDonald’s nationally about how the company return development powers to local communities. Witham can take what it has learnt from the “gamesmaker” in particular is doing a great deal. The hon. Member for experience, and use it to improve our town centres and West Ham (Lyn Brown) shakes her head. She is welcome the quality of service that they provide. to come to Witham and see some of the good things that we are doing there. Neighbourhood plans have 6.35 pm been transformational in my community, and part of Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend the reason for that is development. There has been the Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) for shortening growth, which is something that we should praise and his own speech in order to allow me to speak. encourage. There are more new homes, and the new 841 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 842 homes bonus will help with infrastructure development My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham and infrastructure investment. (Mr Lammy) tried to amend the Localism Bill to tackle Finally, I urge the Minister to come to Witham when the problem of betting shops, and he made the case for he is en route to his constituency, and to meet our town that again today, as did my hon. Friend the Member for team and look at some of the innovative ideas—the Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), who reminded us edginess—that we have, because this is about the that, as so often with this Government, the rhetoric empowerment of local communities. I commend his does not match the reality on localism and giving Department—in particular him and the Secretary of councils the real powers they need to address this problem. State—for devolving more of those powers to the grass My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry roots and to our communities. McCarthy) gave an example from her area of the detrimental impact the Government’s change of use 6.39 pm policy is already having, and my right hon. Friend the Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): It is a great Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock) pleasure to speak for the Opposition in this debate and talked about the problem in our high streets. She said to follow the excellent contributions made by many the two wards that cover the high street in her constituency Members, not least the opening contribution from my are in the top 10% most deprived in the country. She hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta says betting shops, pawn shops and payday loan companies Blackman-Woods), who set out a very strong case for are preying on some of the most vulnerable people, and our motion. she made a very strong case that the planning laws need Our high streets and town centres are struggling. We strengthening, not weakening. That was echoed by my all know our shopping habits are changing, but there hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and are other critical factors affecting our town centres. East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop), who also talked about Living standards have been falling in 39 out of the the importance of the proposal to cut business rates, a 40 months that this Prime Minister has been in office, point my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and that is having a huge effect on high-street spend. has made. Currently, one in seven shops are empty—a threefold increase since 2008—and many others are being turned Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): On tackling into yet more payday lenders, betting shops and takeaways. payday loans, does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex crucial to recognise one significant step taken by this Cunningham) highlighted the changing character of his Government, which is to allow credit unions to lend high street and he also outlined the good practice of his money without their members first having to make a local council, and it was good to hear that, as it was to deposit? Does he agree that credit unions are the way hear the comments of the hon. Member for Crawley forward, through attracting the people who are most (Henry Smith) on the good practice of his local council vulnerable to borrow responsibly? in protecting its high street. Such great local initiatives were a feature of many of today’s contributions and, I Andy Sawford: I am pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman say as a localist, they are good to hear and should be agree that action needs to be taken to address the celebrated. problem of payday loan companies on our high streets, but I have to say that the response so far from his Mr Binley: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. Front-Bench colleagues has been far too weak. I hope Will he also recognise that the Northampton Alive we will have his support in trying to improve the protections project—which he has shown some interest in, for which available for constituents around the country. I am grateful—is transforming our county town? My hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish Andy Sawford: May I say what a great pleasure it is to (Andrew Gwynne) spoke passionately about his town see the hon. Gentleman bounce back so quickly and centre, telling us how the campaign to save the Denton make a contribution to this debate of such obvious post office was his political awakening. He spoke with passion and expertise? He only narrowly lost out earlier, knowledge and pride about the many great initiatives in but, as has been said, his loss in the Deputy Speaker his town, points that I wish to echo in respect of what is election is our gain in today’s debate. Rather cheekily, happening in the five towns across my constituency. All however, I would prefer to invite him to come to Corby the local authorities, including the town and parish and see what a great Labour local authority has done. I councils, which play a particularly important role in our understand the comments he has made about out-of-town smaller town centres, are trying very hard to protect retail, and many other Members echoed them, but we them. have protected Corby town centre and we have seen the fruits, as there are now 8 million shoppers coming each Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): Will year—and I hope that will be 8 million and one when he the hon. Gentleman give way? decides to come and visit us. We heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Andy Sawford: I have very little time, so I am going to Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) and for Liverpool, Walton continue my speech. (Steve Rotheram) about the payday loans companies in My hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon their high streets. My hon. Friend the Member for Danczuk) is making a very personal contribution to the Liverpool, Walton made a very powerful point when he success of his high street, and I am sure that all hon. drew a comparison between the experiences of different Members will want to wish Mrs Danczuk well with the Members in their local communities, suggesting it is not opening of Danczuk’s Delicatessen. He powerfully appropriate to compare the County road in Liverpool highlighted the impact of the living standards crisis on with the King’s road in Chelsea. our high streets, saying, rightly, that there is a relationship 843 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 844

[Andy Sawford] 80,000 of our largest businesses to cut business rates for 1.5 million businesses across our country. That proposal between security of employment and issues such as has been welcomed by organisations such as the Federation zero-hours exploitation, and people’s ability to spend of Small Businesses. I believe it has the power to make a on the high street. huge difference. It will save those businesses £450 a year, My hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah which will be much needed; it will be a real lifeline. Champion) opened her speech by offering condolences May I end by welcoming the Under-Secretary of to the family of her constituent Mr Iqbal, who was State for Communities and Local Government, the tragically murdered. May I associate all Opposition hon. Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) to his Members and, indeed, the whole House, with the role? I very much hope to see him in the Lobby supporting condolences that she has sent to his family? She makes a our motion, because I understand that the Liberal powerful point that we ought to have a concern for the Democrat conference supported it, too. It is Liberal safety of people who work in retail. Democrat policy, but I wonder whether it will be another The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and example, like the mansion tax or the Robin Hood Local Government, the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth financial transaction tax, where we have given the Liberal (Brandon Lewis) opened his speech by telling us about Democrats the opportunity in this House to vote for the Government’s various initiatives. He told us that their own policy and they have found some weasel over the past two years they have established the Portas words to get out of it and troop through the Lobby with pilots, the town team partners, the future high streets the Tories. The action that we need for our town centres forum—there was no end to the initiatives. However, as is set out in our motion, and I urge him to see sense and my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham said, it support it. is a fragmented and piecemeal approach that has failed to deliver the real change we need in the health and 6.49 pm well-being of our high streets and town centres. Well- intentioned though I am sure some of the initiatives are, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the truth is that the Government’s approach is a dog’s Communities and Local Government (Stephen Williams): breakfast and it has had no significant impact. The The hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) and I are Government’s own progress report in July highlights both newbies in our roles, so I welcome him to his role. I that; it is so scant on the details of what has been will decline his blandishments, which have been offered improved. to me on many occasions by an Opposition spokesman, seductive as they may be in part. That is often the way The Portas pilots have been very slow to pull down with Opposition motions, and I have spoken on many the money allocated to them and by June only 12% of of them over the past three and a half years. Although the £2.3 million Portas pilot budget allocated had been there are some good things in what the motion says and spent. Mary Portas has said, and I was there at the I agree with some of it, there are obviously areas where Select Committee: we cannot agree. “I’m not seeing that happening and it’s getting very frustrating. The Government’s response to my proposals has been tepid. I feel There have been 13 Back-Bench speeches. It is the exhausted by it…I feel thoroughly and utterly deflated.” second time in the past two years or so that the Sadly, listening to the Under-Secretary I share that House has had the opportunity to debate high streets. I feeling. Rather than address the concerns raised by spoke in a Back-Bench debate on the high street called Mary Portas, the Government have now introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) policies that look set to worsen the situation. Such in January 2012. On that occasion 50 Back Benchers policies include the changes to the planning rules announced spoke in the debate so we know that there is huge in May and August, which strip communities of a say interest in the issue across the House. However, given over their high streets. The important difference that the that this was an Opposition-day motion, there are rather changes will make is that they will allow payday lenders more Labour Members in the Chamber as we are and betting shops, which have always been able to open coming up to the vote than there have been throughout up in banks and building societies, to take over other the entire debate. Considering that it was their own shops as well. The Government are also allowing offices, motion, it is disappointing that more Labour MPs shops and services such as banks and building societies chose not to take part. to be turned into flats and houses without any proper It is a particular pleasure on my first outing at the strategy. That is the opposite of what our high streets Dispatch Box to be speaking about high streets. If I need and it is the opposite of what people want to see. may be parochial for a moment, my constituency, Bristol West, has the greatest high street in England running Rory Stewart rose— right through the middle of it—the Gloucester road, the longest stretch of independent businesses in the Andy Sawford: I have very little time left. country. At the west of my constituency there is Clifton Labour will therefore give councils new powers, so village, full of independent shops and boutiques, and in that in areas where there is a problem councillors could the east of my constituency is Stapleton road. Rather as put payday lenders and other problem uses into a new the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame umbrella class. We will encourage local authorities to Joan Ruddock) said of her constituency, Stapleton road plan for and allow flexibility on the high street in a way in my constituency is in one of the 10% most deprived that suits the community they represent, such as through census enumeration districts in England, but it is a permitted development rights. We will take action to thriving high street and I pay tribute to all my constituents promote retail diversity and, vitally, we will cut business there, particularly the new arrivals from Somalia in rates. If Labour wins power in 2015, we will use the recent years, who have opened small businesses in that money that this Government would use to cut taxes for street. 845 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 846

We do not have in that high street the problems of Mr Binley: The Minister is very kind. Does he not betting shops that the right hon. Lady mentioned. She recognise, however, that the car parks of out-of-town was the first of many speakers who mentioned that developments are not rated? problem, to which the Opposition motion refers. The general point that was made was that nothing can be Stephen Williams: As a city centre MP, I know that done about it. To all those who made that point, I say there is certainly concern about the disparity between there is something that can be done. There is something charges for town and city centre parking and for out-of-town in existing planning legislation that they could use; it is parking, which is often free. I think that ought to be called an article 4 directive. I suggest that all the hon. kept under review. Members who said they feel that their local area is not doing enough to stem the tide, as they see it, of betting Several hon. Members rose— shops moving into their high streets should speak to their local councillors and local council officers and ask Stephen Williams: I have now given way three times, why an article 4 directive has not been issued. Many of unlike the hon. Member for Corby, so I will now the other considerations relating to betting shops fall continue with my speech. under the licensing regime, not the planning system, which is primarily to do with the rationing of space. We heard from several members of the Communities and Local Government Committee—I am sure that I Bill Esterson: Will the Minister tell the House whether will be appearing before it soon—including the hon. he thinks a cut in business rates will help his high Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk). I certainly streets, and if he does, will he vote for our motion agree with many of the good points he made. We want tonight? diversity on the high street. None of us wants to see clone towns with chain stores and too many charity Stephen Williams: The Government are doing much shops, bars, estate agents and so on. However, he rather on business rates. We have delayed the revaluation until shot himself in the foot when he said that the big 2015. Also, as was announced in the Budget this year, problem is the flatlining economy. We have heard a lot we are giving every business in the country a £2,000 national from Opposition Front Benchers about the flatlining insurance credit. That will be of huge value to many economy, but it turns out not to be true, because there small businesses throughout the country, some of which was no double-dip recession and the economy is growing. will no longer be paying employers national insurance We know that there is much more to do, but the country at all, and many of them will be retailers. That £2,000 is certainly on track and the economy is returning to may compensate significantly for the high cost of business health. rates, which we certainly acknowledge is a problem. The hon. Member for Rochdale, among many other Many small businesses say that uniform business rate is Members, also mentioned the Grimsey review, which a problem for them. was intended as an alternative to the Portas review, or to complement it. I attended the launch of Bill Grimsey’s Simon Hughes: I warmly welcome the appointment review downstairs in the Churchill Room and think that of my hon. Friend, who will do an excellent job as he made many interesting points. One that particularly Minister. I put it to his colleague earlier that, on one chimed with me was the suggestion that the high street aspect of the debate, our party decided this year that we should do much more to make technology available, wanted a change in the law to allow a separate use class particularly wi-fi. I am now quite militant about asking for gambling establishments. I hope that he will not high street businesses whether wi-fi is available. He forget that policy in government, and I hope he will makes a very good point. show how good a Minister he is by persuading his colleagues before the end of this Parliament to change We also heard from my hon. Friends the Members the law accordingly. for Southport (John Pugh) and for Rugby (Mark Pawsey), both of whom are members of the Select Committee. Stephen Williams: My right hon. Friend is always a My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby mentioned that delight and always very helpful. I am sure that that will it was also important to have people living in town be a hot topic for discussion at ministerial team meetings centres. During the debate it seemed that many Members over the next 12 months. thought that people living in town and city centres was something of a problem. As someone who not only is On the point about business rates, councils already an MP for a city centre, but was the councillor for have discretion to give a reduction, and the Government Bristol city centre 20 years ago, I think that it is marvellous fund that on a 50:50 basis. Many hon. Members talked that more people want to live in town and city centres. about the effect of business rates on their communities We are reversing the urban flight to the suburbs that and about the revaluation. The hon. Member for took place over a long period. Town and city centre Northampton South (Mr Binley)—I commiserate with vitality depends on a cross-section of the population him on today’s result—made some points about valuation. living in those communities, spending money in the Actually, out-of-town businesses are valued on the same shops, working in the shops and perhaps being able to basis as town and city centre businesses, and it is on the walk to work. I find it quite puzzling that many hon. rental valuation. Although the valuation is based on Members seemed to think that it was a problem that the 2008, in 2010 this Government reduced the percentage changes we are making will enable more people to live applied to the valuation, so the truth is that since in town and city centres. 1990 there has been no real-terms rise in business rates. In the minute remaining I will mention some of the Mr Binley: Will the Minister give way? initiatives that the Government are undertaking. I think that some hon. Members were quite churlish about the Stephen Williams: I will give way one last time. Portas review. Mary Portas is a business woman who 847 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 848

[Stephen Williams] Glindon, Mrs Mary Murphy, rh Paul Godsiff, Mr Roger Murray, Ian gave up her time for the Government. She came up with Goggins, rh Paul Nandy, Lisa many sensible recommendations, 27 of which the Goodman, Helen O’Donnell, Fiona Government have accepted. I went to her consultation Greatrex, Tom Onwurah, Chi on the Upper Committee Corridor, which was packed Greenwood, Lilian Osborne, Sandra Griffith, Nia Owen, Albert with MPs who wanted to support what she was doing— Gwynne, Andrew Paisley, Ian Hain, rh Mr Peter Perkins, Toby Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab) claimed Hamilton, Mr David Phillipson, Bridget to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Hamilton, Fabian Pound, Stephen Question put forthwith, That the Question be now Hanson, rh Mr David Powell, Lucy put. Harris, Mr Tom Qureshi, Yasmin Havard, Mr Dai Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Question agreed to. Healey, rh John Reed, Mr Jamie Main Question accordingly put. Hendrick, Mark Reed, Mr Steve The House proceeded to a Division. Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reynolds, Emma Heyes, David Reynolds, Jonathan Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I ask the Hodge, rh Margaret Riordan, Mrs Linda Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Robertson, John Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Hoey, Kate Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Lobby. Hopkins, Kelvin Rotheram, Steve The House having divided: Ayes 224, Noes 294. Howarth, rh Mr George Roy, Mr Frank Hunt, Tristram Roy, Lindsay Division No. 102] [6.59 pm Irranca-Davies, Huw Ruane, Chris Jackson, Glenda Ruddock, rh Dame AYES Jamieson, Cathy Joan Abbott, Ms Diane Creasy, Stella Jarvis, Dan Sarwar, Anas Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cruddas, Jon Johnson, rh Alan Sawford, Andy Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cryer, John Johnson, Diana Seabeck, Alison Alexander, Heidi Cunningham, Alex Jones, Graham Shannon, Jim Ali, Rushanara Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen Sharma, Mr Virendra Allen, Mr Graham Cunningham, Sir Tony Jones, Mr Kevan Sheerman, Mr Barry Ashworth, Jonathan Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheridan, Jim Austin, Ian Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Shuker, Gavin Bailey, Mr Adrian Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Skinner, Mr Dennis Bain, Mr William Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq Slaughter, Mr Andy Balls, rh Ed David, Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, rh Mr Andrew Barron, rh Mr Kevin Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Smith, Angela Bayley, Hugh Denham, rh Mr John Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Nick Beckett, rh Margaret Dobbin, Jim Leslie, Chris Smith, Owen Begg, Dame Anne Dobson, rh Frank Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Spellar, rh Mr John Benn, rh Hilary Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey Lewis, Mr Ivan Straw, rh Mr Jack Benton, Mr Joe M. Long, Naomi Stringer, Graham Berger, Luciana Donohoe, Mr Brian Love, Mr Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela Lucas, Ian Betts, Mr Clive H. Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Blackman-Woods, Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Tami, Mark Roberta Doughty, Stephen Mahmood, Shabana Thomas, Mr Gareth Blears, rh Hazel Dowd, Jim Malhotra, Seema Thornberry, Emily Blenkinsop, Tom Doyle, Gemma Mann, John Timms, rh Stephen Blomfield, Paul Dromey, Jack Marsden, Mr Gordon Blunkett, rh Mr David Dugher, Michael McCabe, Steve Trickett, Jon Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Durkan, Mark McCann, Mr Michael Turner, Karl Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Ms Angela McCarthy, Kerry Twigg, Derek Brown, Lyn Eagle, Maria McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Stephen Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Efford, Clive McDonald, Andy Umunna, Mr Chuka Brown, Mr Russell Elliott, Julie McDonnell, John Vaz, rh Keith Buck, Ms Karen Ellman, Mrs Louise McFadden, rh Mr Pat Vaz, Valerie Burden, Richard Engel, Natascha McGovern, Alison Walley, Joan Byrne, rh Mr Liam Esterson, Bill McKechin, Ann Watson, Mr Tom Campbell, Mr Alan Evans, Chris McKenzie, Mr Iain Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Ronnie Farrelly, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Whitehead, Dr Alan Caton, Martin Fitzpatrick, Jim Meacher, rh Mr Michael Williams, Hywel Champion, Sarah Flello, Robert Meale, Sir Alan Williamson, Chris Clark, Katy Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian Wilson, Phil Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flynn, Paul Miliband, rh Edward Winnick, Mr David Miller, Andrew Clwyd, rh Ann Fovargue, Yvonne Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Coffey, Ann Francis, Dr Hywel Wright, Mr Iain Morris, Grahame M. Connarty, Michael Gapes, Mike (Easington) Cooper, rh Yvette Gardiner, Barry Tellers for the Ayes: Munn, Meg Susan Elan Jones and Corbyn, Jeremy Gilmore, Sheila Murphy, rh Mr Jim Julie Hilling Crausby, Mr David Glass, Pat 849 High Streets16 OCTOBER 2013 High Streets 850

NOES Kelly, Chris Pugh, John Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Adams, Nigel Dunne, Mr Philip Knight, rh Mr Greg Randall, rh Mr John Afriyie, Adam Ellis, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Reckless, Mark Aldous, Peter Ellison, Jane Lancaster, Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Amess, Mr David Ellwood, Mr Tobias Latham, Pauline Rees-Mogg, Jacob Andrew, Stuart Elphicke, Charlie Laws, rh Mr David Reevell, Simon Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Evans, Graham Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan Bacon, Mr Richard Evans, Jonathan Lee, Jessica Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Baker, Norman Evennett, Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, rh Hugh Baldwin, Harriett Fabricant, Michael Leech, Mr John Robertson, Mr Laurence Barclay, Stephen Fallon, rh Michael Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Barker, rh Gregory Featherstone, Lynne Leigh, Sir Edward Rosindell, Andrew Baron, Mr John Field, Mark Leslie, Charlotte Rudd, Amber Barwell, Gavin Foster, rh Mr Don Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Russell, Sir Bob Beith, rh Sir Alan Fox,rhDrLiam Lewis, Brandon Rutley, David Bellingham, Mr Henry Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Sanders, Mr Adrian Beresford, Sir Paul Freeman, George Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Berry, Jake Freer, Mike Lilley, rh Mr Peter Scott, Mr Lee Bingham, Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Lloyd, Stephen Selous, Andrew Binley, Mr Brian Fuller, Richard Lopresti, Jack Shapps, rh Grant Birtwistle, Gordon Gale, Sir Roger Lord, Jonathan Sharma, Alok Blackman, Bob Garnier, Sir Edward Loughton, Tim Shelbrooke, Alec Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Mark Luff, Peter Simpson, Mr Keith Boles, Nick Gauke, Mr David Lumley, Karen Smith, Henry Bone, Mr Peter George, Andrew Macleod, Mary Smith, Julian Bottomley, Sir Peter Gibb, Mr Nick Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Sir Robert Bradley, Karen Gilbert, Stephen Maude, rh Mr Francis Soames, rh Nicholas Brady, Mr Graham Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Maynard, Paul Soubry, Anna Brake, rh Tom Glen, John McCartney, Jason Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Bray, Angie Goodwill, Mr Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Brazier, Mr Julian Graham, Richard McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Bridgen, Andrew Gray, Mr James McPartland, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Brine, Steve Grayling, rh Chris Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain Brokenshire, James Green, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Rory Brooke, Annette Greening, rh Justine Mills, Nigel Streeter, Mr Gary Browne, Mr Jeremy Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Milton, Anne Stride, Mel Bruce, Fiona Griffiths, Andrew Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stuart, Mr Graham Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Gummer, Ben Mordaunt, Penny Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Halfon, Robert Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Burley, Mr Aidan Hames, Duncan Morris, Anne Marie Swales, Ian Burns, Conor Hammond, Stephen Morris, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Burrowes, Mr David Hands, Greg Morris, James Swinson, Jo Burstow, rh Paul Harper, Mr Mark Mosley, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Burt, Lorely Harrington, Richard Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert Byles, Dan Harris, Rebecca Mulholland, Greg Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Cable, rh Vince Harvey, Sir Nick Mundell, rh David Teather, Sarah Cairns, Alun Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Munt, Tessa Thornton, Mike Carmichael, Neil Hayes, rh Mr John Murray, Sheryll Thurso, John Carswell, Mr Douglas Heald, Oliver Murrison, Dr Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward Chishti, Rehman Heath, Mr David Neill, Robert Tomlinson, Justin Clappison, Mr James Hemming, John Newton, Sarah Tredinnick, David Clark, rh Greg Henderson, Gordon Nokes, Caroline Truss, Elizabeth Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Turner, Mr Andrew Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hoban, Mr Mark O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Uppal, Paul Collins, Damian Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Vara, Mr Shailesh Colvile, Oliver Hollobone, Mr Philip Opperman, Guy Vickers, Martin Cox, Mr Geoffrey Holloway, Mr Adam Paice, rh Sir James Walker, Mr Charles Crabb, Stephen Hopkins, Kris Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Crouch, Tracey Horwood, Martin Davey, rh Mr Edward Howell, John Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Davies, Philip Hughes, rh Simon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walter, Mr Robert Davis, rh Mr David Huppert, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark Ward, Mr David de Bois, Nick Jackson, Mr Stewart Penning, Mike Watkinson, Dame Angela Dinenage, Caroline James, Margot Penrose, John Weatherley, Mike Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew Webb, Steve Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Wharton, James Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Joseph Pickles, rh Mr Eric Wheeler, Heather Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher White, Chris Drax, Richard Jones, rh Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel Whittingdale, Mr John Duddridge, James Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kawczynski, Daniel Pritchard, Mark Williams, Roger 851 High Streets 16 OCTOBER 2013 852

Williams, Stephen Wright, Simon Davey, rh Mr Edward Johnson, Gareth Williamson, Gavin Young, rh Sir George Davis, rh Mr David Johnson, Joseph Willott, Jenny Dinenage, Caroline Jones, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Tellers for the Noes: Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jones, rh Mr David Wollaston, Dr Sarah Claire Perry and Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, Mr Marcus Wright, Jeremy Mark Hunter Dorries, Nadine Kawczynski, Daniel Doyle-Price, Jackie Kelly, Chris Question accordingly negatived. Drax, Richard Kirby, Simon Duddridge, James Knight, rh Mr Greg Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kwarteng, Kwasi Business without Debate Dunne, Mr Philip Lancaster, Mark Ellis, Michael Latham, Pauline Ellison, Jane Laws, rh Mr David DEFERRED DIVISIONS Ellwood, Mr Tobias Leadsom, Andrea Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Elphicke, Charlie Lee, Jessica Order No. 41A(3)), Evans, Graham Lee, Dr Phillip That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred Evans, Jonathan Leech, Mr John divisions) shall not apply to the Motion relating to Civil Aviation Evennett, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Safety.—(John Penrose.) Fabricant, Michael Leigh, Sir Edward Fallon, rh Michael Leslie, Charlotte Question agreed to. Featherstone, Lynne Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Field, Mark Lewis, Brandon EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Foster, rh Mr Don Lewis, Dr Julian Fox,rhDrLiam Liddell-Grainger, Mr Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Francois, rh Mr Mark Ian Order No. 119(11)), Freeman, George Lilley, rh Mr Peter Freer, Mike Lloyd, Stephen CIVIL AVIATION SAFETY Fullbrook, Lorraine Lopresti, Jack That this House takes note of European Union Document Fuller, Richard Lord, Jonathan No. 12864/13, a draft Commission Regulation (EU) No. .../… of Gale, Sir Roger Loughton, Tim XXX amending Regulation (EU) No. 965/2012 laying down Garnier, Sir Edward Luff, Peter technical requirements and administrative procedures related to Garnier, Mark Lumley, Karen air operations pursuant to Regulation (EC) No. 216/2008 of the Gauke, Mr David Macleod, Mary European Parliament and of the Council; notes that the Government George, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis recognises the importance of managing crew fatigue to support Gibb, Mr Nick Maynard, Paul civil aviation safety; supports the Government’s view that the Gilbert, Stephen McIntosh, Miss Anne measures will establish safety improvements across the European Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl McLoughlin, rh Mr Union and maintain safety in the UK; and further supports the Glen, John Patrick Government’s view that the measures respect subsidiarity principles Goodwill, Mr Robert Menzies, Mark and help to deliver a level playing field across the EU.—(John Graham, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Penrose.) Gray, Mr James Mills, Nigel The House divided: Ayes 272, Noes 227. Grayling, rh Chris Milton, Anne Division No. 103] [7.15 pm Green, rh Damian Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Greening, rh Justine Mordaunt, Penny Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Morgan, Nicky AYES Griffiths, Andrew Morris, Anne Marie Adams, Nigel Brokenshire, James Gummer, Ben Morris, David Afriyie, Adam Brooke, Annette Halfon, Robert Morris, James Aldous, Peter Browne, Mr Jeremy Hames, Duncan Mosley, Stephen Amess, Mr David Bruce, Fiona Hammond, Stephen Mowat, David Andrew, Stuart Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Hands, Greg Mulholland, Greg Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Buckland, Mr Robert Harper, Mr Mark Mundell, rh David Bacon, Mr Richard Burley, Mr Aidan Harrington, Richard Munt, Tessa Baker, Norman Burns, Conor Harris, Rebecca Murray, Sheryll Baldwin, Harriett Burrowes, Mr David Harvey, Sir Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Barclay, Stephen Burstow, rh Paul Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Neill, Robert Barker, rh Gregory Burt, Lorely Hayes, rh Mr John Newton, Sarah Beith, rh Sir Alan Byles, Dan Heald, Oliver Nokes, Caroline Bellingham, Mr Henry Cable, rh Vince Heath, Mr David Norman, Jesse Beresford, Sir Paul Cairns, Alun Hemming, John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Berry, Jake Carmichael, Neil Herbert, rh Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Bingham, Andrew Chishti, Rehman Hinds, Damian Opperman, Guy Birtwistle, Gordon Clappison, Mr James Hoban, Mr Mark Paice, rh Sir James Blackman, Bob Clark, rh Greg Hollingbery, George Parish, Neil Blackwood, Nicola Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Holloway, Mr Adam Patel, Priti Boles, Nick Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hopkins, Kris Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bone, Mr Peter Coffey, Dr Thérèse Horwood, Martin Pawsey, Mark Bradley, Karen Collins, Damian Howell, John Penning, Mike Brake, rh Tom Colvile, Oliver Hughes, rh Simon Penrose, John Brazier, Mr Julian Cox, Mr Geoffrey Huppert, Dr Julian Perry, Claire Bridgen, Andrew Crabb, Stephen Jackson, Mr Stewart Phillips, Stephen Brine, Steve Crouch, Tracey James, Margot Pickles, rh Mr Eric 853 Business without Debate16 OCTOBER 2013 Business without Debate 854

Pincher, Christopher Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Davies, Geraint Leslie, Chris Poulter, Dr Daniel Swinson, Jo Davies, Philip Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Prisk, Mr Mark Swire, rh Mr Hugo Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Pritchard, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Dobbin, Jim Long, Naomi Pugh, John Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Dobson, rh Frank Love, Mr Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Teather, Sarah Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lucas, Ian Randall, rh Mr John Thornton, Mike Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacNeil, Mr Angus Rees-Mogg, Jacob Thurso, John Doran, Mr Frank Brendan Reevell, Simon Timpson, Mr Edward Doughty, Stephen Mactaggart, Fiona Reid, Mr Alan Tomlinson, Justin Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Tredinnick, David Doyle, Gemma Malhotra, Seema Robertson, rh Hugh Truss, Elizabeth Dromey, Jack Mann, John Robertson, Mr Laurence Turner, Mr Andrew Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Durkan, Mark McCabe, Steve Rogerson, Dan Tyrie, Mr Andrew Rosindell, Andrew Eagle, Ms Angela McCann, Mr Michael Uppal, Paul Rudd, Amber Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry Vara, Mr Shailesh Ruffley, Mr David Efford, Clive McCartney, Jason Vickers, Martin Russell, Sir Bob Elliott, Julie McDonald, Andy Walker, Mr Charles Rutley, David Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, John Sanders, Mr Adrian Walker, Mr Robin Engel, Natascha McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sandys, Laura Wallace, Mr Ben Esterson, Bill McGovern, Alison Scott, Mr Lee Walter, Mr Robert Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann Selous, Andrew Watkinson, Dame Farrelly, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Shapps, rh Grant Angela Field, rh Mr Frank McKinnell, Catherine Sharma, Alok Webb, Steve Fitzpatrick, Jim Meacher, rh Mr Michael Shelbrooke, Alec Wharton, James Flello, Robert Meale, Sir Alan Simpson, Mr Keith Wheeler, Heather Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian Smith, Julian White, Chris Flynn, Paul Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Sir Robert Wiggin, Bill Fovargue, Yvonne Miller, Andrew Soames, rh Nicholas Williams, Roger Francis, Dr Hywel Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Soubry, Anna Williams, Stephen Gapes, Mike Morris, Grahame M. Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Williamson, Gavin Gardiner, Barry (Easington) Spencer, Mr Mark Willott, Jenny Gilmore, Sheila Munn, Meg Stanley, rh Sir John Wilson, Mr Rob Glass, Pat Murphy, rh Mr Jim Stephenson, Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Glindon, Mrs Mary Murphy, rh Paul Godsiff, Mr Roger Murray, Ian Stewart, Iain Wright, Jeremy Stewart, Rory Goggins, rh Paul Nandy, Lisa Wright, Simon Stride, Mel Goodman, Helen Nuttall, Mr David Young, rh Sir George Stuart, Mr Graham Greatrex, Tom O’Donnell, Fiona Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Greenwood, Lilian Onwurah, Chi Sturdy, Julian Mark Hunter and Griffith, Nia Osborne, Sandra Swales, Ian Gavin Barwell Gwynne, Andrew Owen, Albert Hamilton, Mr David Paisley, Ian NOES Hamilton, Fabian Percy, Andrew Hanson, rh Mr David Perkins, Toby Abbott, Ms Diane Brown, Mr Russell Harris, Mr Tom Phillipson, Bridget Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Buck, Ms Karen Havard, Mr Dai Pound, Stephen Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Burden, Richard Healey, rh John Powell, Lucy Ali, Rushanara Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hendrick, Mark Qureshi, Yasmin Allen, Mr Graham Campbell, Mr Alan Hepburn, Mr Stephen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Ashworth, Jonathan Carswell, Mr Douglas Heyes, David Reed, Mr Jamie Bailey, Mr Adrian Caton, Martin Hodge, rh Margaret Reed, Mr Steve Bain, Mr William Champion, Sarah Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Emma Balls, rh Ed Clark, Katy Hollobone, Mr Philip Reynolds, Jonathan Barron, rh Mr Kevin Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Bayley, Hugh Clwyd, rh Ann Howarth, rh Mr George Robertson, Angus Beckett, rh Margaret Coaker, Vernon Hunt, Tristram Robertson, John Begg, Dame Anne Coffey, Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Benn, rh Hilary Connarty, Michael Jackson, Glenda Rotheram, Steve Benton, Mr Joe Cooper, rh Yvette Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Mr Frank Berger, Luciana Corbyn, Jeremy Jarvis, Dan Roy, Lindsay Betts, Mr Clive Crausby, Mr David Johnson, rh Alan Ruane, Chris Blackman-Woods, Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Ruddock, rh Dame Roberta Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham Joan Blears, rh Hazel Cryer, John Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Blenkinsop, Tom Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Sawford, Andy Blomfield, Paul Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Seabeck, Alison Blunkett, rh Mr David Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Shannon, Jim Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz Sharma, Mr Virendra Brennan, Kevin Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Sheerman, Mr Barry Brown, Lyn Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lavery, Ian Sheridan, Jim Brown, rh Mr Nicholas David, Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Shuker, Gavin 855 Business without Debate16 OCTOBER 2013 Business without Debate 856

Skinner, Mr Dennis Twigg, Stephen Megan Elliott, of the National Association of Probation Slaughter, Mr Andy Umunna, Mr Chuka Officers, and her colleagues have collected a petition of Smith, rh Mr Andrew Vaz, rh Keith 2,138 signatures from the catchment area of the Smith, Angela Vaz, Valerie Northumbria Probation Trust. It is not surprising that Smith, Nick Walley, Joan feeling about this issue is strong in the north-east of Smith, Owen Watson, Mr Tom England—the Northumbria Probation Trust received Spellar, rh Mr John Watts, Mr Dave Straw, rh Mr Jack Whiteford, Dr Eilidh an exceptional rating in 2012-13. Indeed, the wider Stringer, Graham Whitehead, Dr Alan probation service received the British Quality Foundation Stuart, Ms Gisela Williams, Hywel gold medal for excellence in 2011. Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Williamson, Chris The petitioners firmly oppose the Government’s plan Tami, Mark Wilson, Phil to privatise up to 70% of probation service work. They Thomas, Mr Gareth Winnick, Mr David defend a publicly accountable probation service in the Thornberry, Emily Winterton, rh Ms Rosie public sector. They oppose the Government’s plan to Timms, rh Stephen Wright, Mr Iain abolish the 35 separate probation trusts and oppose Trickett, Jon Tellers for the Noes: contracting out through a competitive process that excludes Turner, Karl Susan Elan Jones and the probation service but includes 70% of their current Twigg, Derek Julie Hilling work. At the heart of the petitioners’ objection is the risk to the public that the Government’s proposals so Question accordingly agreed to. obviously pose. It offends against common sense to proceed with these untested ideas without, at the very least, piloting them first and learning the lessons of the DELEGATED LEGISLATION pilot. I side with the petitioners and believe we should Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing heed their warning. Order No. 118(6)), The petition states: The Petition of residents of the UK, NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE Declares that the Petitioners oppose the Government’s plan to That the draft National Health Service (Licence Exemptions, abolish the Probation Service in its current form and to privatise etc.) Regulations 2013, which were laid before this House on up to 70% of work currently undertaken by it. The Petitioners 4 July, be approved.—(John Penrose.) believe that those convicted by a Criminal Court should be Question agreed to. supervised by those employed by a publicly accountable Probation Service such as currently exists; further that the Petitioners oppose the Government’s plan to abolish the 35 public sector Probation PETITION Trusts replacing them with one Probation Service that only supervises those deemed to be of a high risk of harm to the public. It is Probation Service (Privatisation) envisaged under the current plan, 70% of probation’s work will be subject to a competitive process which excludes the Probation Service. We believe that such a plan is “high risk” in that it could 7.27 pm place the public at a greater risk of harm. Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to stop the planned changes to the Probation The petitioners urge the Government, and in particular Service. the Ministry of Justice, to think again about their proposals for the privatisation of the probation service. And the Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. [P001225] 857 16 OCTOBER 2013 Ansford Railway Bridge 858

Ansford Railway Bridge If we were talking about a council—or, I would like to think, a Department—every effort would be made, as Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House far as possible, to fit things in with local needs. Public do now adjourn.—(John Penrose.) accountability suggests that the organisation involved would be desperately trying to reduce the economic and 7.29 pm social effects to a minimum, but Network Rail is of course not publicly accountable in that way, other than Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I am through the Department for Transport. Indeed, I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker, for this opportunity to do afraid to say that there appears to be no evidence that it something that, as a former Minister, I have been unable believes it has any wider responsibility, other than to to do for the past three and a half years, which is to minimise its costs and do whatever is most convenient raise an issue in the House, on behalf of my constituents, to itself. That is why local people are so upset. in an area that was not my responsibility as a Minister. I am glad to see the Minister here this evening, but I There is a considerable groundswell of opinion in my know that he cannot provide me with an enormous constituency about the closure of a railway bridge in amount of comfort, nor do I expect him to—I know Ansford, very close to Castle Cary railway station, that because at the start of this work I was in closing the A371, which runs through my constituency. correspondence with the then rail Minister. I know, too, The reasons for the disquiet are the length of the that the Secretary of State for Transport has had discussions operation that Network Rail is effecting, the consequences on this very subject with Mr Richard Fry of Frampton’s—a for the local economy, the inconvenience to local people constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Wells and the fact that those could have been mitigated with a (Tessa Munt) and a representative of a freight company bit more care on the part of the railway company. that is one of those most affected—yet all to no avail. In Having said that, I think we all understand the reasons fact, if the Minister has been given the same brief as his for the bridge closure. It is an essential maintenance predecessors—who is to know whether his civil servants requirement; it is not in anyone’s interest that we have have rewritten it?—he might employ the following sentences: bridges over railways that fall apart and cause trouble. “Network Rail is a private sector company limited by We all realise that occasionally significant works have to guarantee. The scope and duration of its engineering be done. works are operational matters for the company in which The closure of the A371 was originally mooted as a Ministers have no powers to intervene.” If he finds that 24-week closure beginning in September 2012. I intervened, in his notes, I hope he will omit it and take it as read, mainly because I felt that the notice given to local because I know that that is the case. However, it in no businesses and people was entirely inadequate, that no way alters my contention that proper pressure should consultation had taken place—to anybody’s knowledge— be applied on public bodies such as Network Rail. and that it was simply inappropriate, in effect, to close My reason for securing this debate is to say that that down the town of Castle Cary over the Christmas answer and its consequences are simply not good enough, period, with all the consequences that that would have and things could be arranged better. Let me cover some had. To give credit to Network Rail, however, after of the things that might have been considered. One of those complaints, it recognised that there was a problem. the clear views expressed by my constituents is that, It attended a meeting held in the area and listened to given such an enormously disruptive road closure, then local people’s concerns, and it went away, determined to ’twere best it were done as quickly as possible—that the postpone the work and undertook to see how the works minimum amount of time should be taken. That would could be done in the shortest time and with the least involve working rather more than the minimum periods effect on the local area. It then came back with a project available, in order to get the job done. We discussed to start in July this year, which it did, and to end, we with Network Rail the possibility of night working—indeed, hope, in mid-November—a 19-week period. conditions could not have been better for evening or Let me be clear, however: 19 weeks is a very long time night work over the last few months—but that has not for a major road to be closed. It would cause enough been forthcoming. We could have had weekend working, disruption in a metropolitan area, but of course there but no work has been done at weekends. We could also would be alternatives. In rural Somerset, there are no have had arrangements to provide for temporary daytime easy alternatives, and the diversions are considerable. access or, if that were not possible, night-time access For light cars, it is 17 miles; for heavy goods vehicles, it when no work was being done, but that was inconvenient is 32 miles, which represents a significant extra cost for and was not done either. companies whose main business is either freight or the delivery of products elsewhere in the country. South I know that with every major civil construction project Somerset district council has estimated the consequences people will say, “Nobody ever seems to be working on for the eight largest companies in the immediate vicinity it.” Sometimes work is done that people are not aware of the road closure. Its reasonable estimate is that the of and sometimes a refractory period is necessary while additional cost for those companies alone is in excess of concrete sets, for example. I understand that, but I £1 million and that it will cost smaller businesses at least assure the Minister that no one in the local area discerns another £1 million. All that is without reference to the any sense of urgency with this work. There is no sense inconvenience and disruption to individuals. It might that people are trying to get it done in the minimum mean an extra 12 miles on the way to school or to work amount of time. Indeed, they are simply dawdling their in the morning or added inconvenience for those rushing way through the project, with all the effects that that has. to catch a train at Castle Cary, one of the few viable train stations in my constituency providing a service to Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I agree with my hon. Friend London. It is now difficult to get to it from one direction wholeheartedly. I have written to the Minister about at least, which causes great difficulty. this matter, because a huge number of my constituents 859 Ansford Railway Bridge16 OCTOBER 2013 Ansford Railway Bridge 860

[Tessa Munt] local radio never quite transpired in the way that was suggested. Whenever anyone mentions compensation, have been inconvenienced. I have also written to the people get very tight-lipped indeed. There is no suggestion company concerned, but at no point has it agreed to do that anyone will be compensated for these problems. anything like consider double working, triple-shift working As I have said, the consequence of all this is that the or anything else that might avail the local community or estimated cost to the major employers in the area is Frampton’s, which my hon. Friend has already mentioned, about £1 million. In our terms, these are big local and the other transport companies. Does he agree that employers. They supply dairy products, veterinary supplies that is the least that the company could have considered? and pet foods. The cost to the largest one alone will be £350,000, because of extra fuel burn, the need for Mr Heath: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. I dual-crewing in order to meet the working time directive, know that her constituents are feeling exactly the same and extra wages costs. These costs all add up. There will pressures as mine are. This is not just a problem of also be extra costs for the council as a result of damage unwillingness to think about the situation. It seems to the highway network because, sadly, heavy goods impossible for anyone—the Minister or anyone else—to vehicles are using inappropriate roads. apply pressure on Network Rail to make it acknowledge I do not believe that any of this was necessary. its responsibility to the local community. Closing a road Network Rail could have done a better job for local has consequences, and it must be done for the minimum people. I say that because an example from elsewhere amount of time. has been brought to my attention. Work was recently Network Rail could also have looked at alternative done by Network Rail in Lewisham. I have no doubt ways of undertaking the project. Such alternatives were that it involved important track work, and it cost offered, but they were rejected. It was suggested, for £9.5 million. That includes £2.5 million to ensure the example, that temporary alternative bridge work might safety and protection of a wildlife area. I think it is be put in place, but Network Rail was not prepared to good—no one should get me wrong on this—that money consider that on the ground of cost. Instead of repairing is being spent to protect such an area, but I would have the bridge, it might have considered replacing it with a liked that money to be invested not just because of the prefabricated alternative, which would have avoided the Network Rail’s fear that wildlife protection groups would long delays altogether. Again, that was not considered. be on its back; I would have liked it to consider Somerset I understand that the Army offered to build a Bailey people as well—people who are losing their jobs and bridge as a temporary replacement. It offered to do it their livelihoods in local businesses as a result of what for free, as it would have found it a useful exercise; Network Rail proposed. I think £2.5 million would have Network Rail would not have had to pay for anything paid for all that shopping list of mitigating factors. except the pier supports. Again, the offer was rejected. This provides an object lesson in how not to take into There are other things that Network Rail could have account the needs of the local economy and the interests done to make life easier for local people. I mentioned of local residents. I ask the Minister to consider this that people are having difficulty getting to the railway station issue. If it were not a road that was closed, but a railway from Castle Cary, two miles away, simply because the link line, do we honestly believe that Network Rail would between the two is closed. However, they could have not have worked absolutely round the clock to get the reached it if car parking had been provided on the right line opened again—because its revenue would be affected? side of the closure, because people could have decamped Do we not believe that Network Rail would have used by footpath from there to the station. That car parking every possible measure to maintain some traffic along was offered. Indeed, I understand that Michael Eavis, the line, whether it be in one direction or the other, in a who runs the Glastonbury festival, offered to provide way that has not happened in the case of this road? In free use of the metal surfacing that he uses in his festival those circumstances, it would not have been 19 weeks; it car park, to create hard standing in a field on the right would certainly not have been a five-day-a-week, 9-to-5 job. side of the road closure, which would have helped local Network Rail has done itself no favours whatever in people. Again, that offer was not entertained by Network community relations. I have to say that this is not the Rail. Apparently it is not even interested in getting fault of the local community relations managers, who people to use the railway if it is going to cost money. have been doing their level best to be as helpful as they Even the things that Network Rail did undertake to can be within the constraints set by head office. The do have not been done satisfactorily. It said that it overall policy of Network Rail here, however, shows would provide full signage to show that the affected absolutely no regard for local interests. That is what businesses were open, but the signage was still not in concerns me—the attitude displayed by Network Rail. place long after the closure had been effected, and the If anyone wants an indication of that, let me say that I businesses lost money. The signage that was eventually wrote to the chief executive on 5 September, asking put up misled people. The situation on the ground is about the progress made on the scheme, asking when it quite complicated, and I do not expect the Minister to could be expected to finish and asking when we could understand it, as he is not a Somerset man. However, expect to see some of the accelerated work that had there is a road called the B3153, which goes from Castle been promised. I received an acknowledgement on Cary across a railway bridge that everyone assumes is 11 September; I am still waiting for a substantive reply. I closed, even though it is not, to places in the constituency think that tells us everything you need to know, Mr Deputy of my hon. Friend the Member for Wells. The signs Speaker. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell me simply say that the railway bridge is closed, and everyone that Network Rail is not completely oblivious—or will assumes that they refer to that railway bridge. Businesses be made not to be completely oblivious—of the interests have lost revenue as a result. The advertisements that of the local communities that, as a public company, it is were supposed to be in all the local newspapers and on supposed to serve. 861 Ansford Railway Bridge16 OCTOBER 2013 Ansford Railway Bridge 862

7.47 pm Friend’s constituents, is the increase in the strength of the bridge to 40 tonnes, which will allow greater facilitation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport of the local economy. That is taking longer than expected. (Stephen Hammond): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath)on securing My hon. Friend also asked why it was not possible to tonight’s Adjournment debate. The closure of the A371 consider doing the construction work in two halves. is clearly a subject of great importance to him—and to Had that been possible, it would have been done, but his hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt)—and had that happened, the scaffolding required to access he spoke eloquently about it. I noted in his opening the outside of the bridge girders would have had to be remarks that he thought Network Rail had been rather mounted on the bridge deck, which would have made it slow in its response, so I hope to be a bit faster this impossible for the railway service underneath to continue. evening. I noted, too, that he was not sure whether I That is why the work could not be undertaken in two could say much from the Dispatch Box tonight to halves. indicate that actions were on the way. I have, however, Tessa Munt: Surely if the flipping Army can build picked up some things from his speech on which I hope something in 24 hours, something could be created. If to able to give him some reassurance. motorway bridges can be prefabricated, formed off site My hon. Friend referred to his main concerns on and rolled into place, and it takes 12 hours, why cannot behalf of his constituents and to those of the leader of something have been done in this case? South Somerset district council seen in an exchange of correspondence earlier this year with the then rail Minister, Stephen Hammond: I am coming to the construction my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker). of a temporary bailey bridge. I know my hon. Friend As I think my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton listened carefully to my remarks about strengthening and Frome knows, that Minister and my officials have the bridge to the level of 40 tonnes, and that is one already raised concerns with Network Rail, particularly reason for the delay. None the less, I am not trying to about the possibilities of single-lane operation or putting excuse the fact that the work will take 19 weeks. I a temporary bridge in place. I hope to address a couple understand the impact on local constituents, and my of those points tonight, and I shall certainly take note hon. Friends can be assured that this will be one of the of my hon. Friend’s last remark—that he has failed to issues that I will raise when I next meet Network Rail in receive a reply from the chief executive of Network Rail my new role, as I expect to do in the near future. since 5 September. By any standard, that is not acceptable Some issues were raised about why certain things may behaviour, and I shall certainly ensure that my officials or may not have been possible. Consideration was given speak to Network Rail tomorrow morning to get that to whether a temporary bailey bridge could be installed response for him. while the main bridge was closed. I understand that the I listened to my hon. Friend set out the issues. As he cost of the installation of the bailey bridge might have rightly says, I am not a Somerset man, so my understanding been greater than the cost of the refurbishment project of them is clearly not as great as his. None the less, we itself. I must confess that what my hon. Friend the all accept that the road is an important one for the local Member for Somerton and Frome said about the offer community. The location between Castle Cary station to build it at no cost was news to me. and the B3153 has an impact, as it falls under the responsibility of Somerset county council as the highways Mr Heath: I hope that I did not mislead the Minister. authority. Following routine inspections by Network I understand that the Army was prepared to build the Rail, there was widespread agreement that major repair bridge at no cost, but I accept that the building of the and strengthening to the bridge was necessary; otherwise, piering would have imposed a considerable cost on the modern traffic loads that use the route would be Network Rail. What I simply do not understand is why, unable to do so, and there would be no certainty of the given the disruption that is being caused, Network Rail continuing safety on the railway. is not working round the clock to complete the work as It is disappointing, however, that the repair and quickly as possible. strengthening work for the overbridge, as my hon. Stephen Hammond: I shall deal with that point in a Friend said, started on 8 July and is expected to run moment. However, I am glad that there is agreement until the end of November. That is partly to do with the between us that the possibility of a bailey bridge was extra works that Network Rail is putting in place. I am considered, although it was ruled out on the basis that it not sure that the full benefit of those extra works has was not cost-effective. necessarily been explained, perhaps because they will benefit the company in the constituency of my hon. I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I skip Friend the Member for Wells. It is normal practice for the history of Network Rail, and simply tell him that it Network Rail to prepare bridges of local authority is a private company and there is no ministerial roads to the statutory requirement to be able to carry responsibility for its operation. Ministers are, however, 24 tonnes. That is covered by a national programme of able to speak to representatives of the company, and, as assessment known as Bridgeguard 3. To implement I have said, I will speak to them about his letter. that, there is a national cost sharing agreement with I am grateful to my hon. Friend for acknowledging local authorities. There is no obligation on Network the work being done through local consultation, and Rail to bring the strength of its bridges carrying roads the fact that Network Rail listened to consultation at a up to the standard to carry modern freight. It is generally time when some of the proposals were even less acceptable accepted that the load-bearing capacity to accommodate than they are now. He also acknowledged that a modern highway standards is 40 tonnes. Certainly, one considerable amount of work was being done, and done reason for the delay and elongated works, which I much more quickly than before, in respect of the new accept has caused the suffering experienced by my hon. road traffic orders. 863 Ansford Railway Bridge16 OCTOBER 2013 Ansford Railway Bridge 864

[Stephen Hammond] the structure would deteriorate. As for the operational details, I will write to him about them if he will allow I know that this will be of little comfort to my hon. me to do so, because I am not sure of the position. Friend and his constituents, but I can tell him that There may well be temporary problems because of the following the pressure exerted on Network Rail by him position of the rail track. and others, and by the Department, the repairs—which I think it important to note that, notwithstanding the began on 8 July—have been speeded up, and the timetable frustration that has been caused, at the end of those has been reduced from 24 weeks to 19. I know that there 19 weeks this large maintenance project will have enabled have been problems relating to communication with the bridge to meet modern highway standards to an residents during the consultation, but, as he also extent that was not possible before. I hope that my acknowledged, some changes have been made as a successors and those of the hon. Gentleman will not result of the consultation. have to discuss the bridge for another 50 years. I congratulate my hon. Friend again on securing the Question put and agreed to. debate. He has described very clearly the concern and disruption that the works have caused to his constituents. 7.58 pm Everyone accepts that if the works were not carried out, House adjourned. 241WH 16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 242WH

David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate Westminster Hall the hon. Gentleman on securing this very important debate. An alarming thing that I have discovered recently is that 80,000 young people across the United Kingdom Wednesday 16 October 2013 suffer from severe depression, and 8,000 of those are under the age of 10. It is alarming, and it is running out of control. As the hon. Gentleman has said, personal [SIR EDWARD LEIGH in the Chair] counselling is an avenue that we can go down. An organisation in my area called Yellow Ribbon do exactly that, and it has had some fantastic results. Psychological Therapies Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting James Morris: The hon. Gentleman makes a good be now adjourned.—(Mark Lancaster.) point; there are major issues with children and young people’s mental health, and I will come on to that later in my speech. 9.30 am I want to talk today about improving access to James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): psychological therapies. That is a big area on which I It is a pleasure to open this very important debate under have been focused on in my role as chairman of the your chairmanship, Sir Edward. First of all, I want to all-party parliamentary group on mental health. The talk about why this debate is important. Mental illness improving access to psychological therapies programme is one of the biggest health challenges that we face over was established under the previous Government in 2006, the next 20 or 30 years. The NHS spends approximately following work by Lord Layard, who looked at the £14 billion on support for people with mental health economic benefits of a widespread programme of access conditions, which amounts to about 13% of total health to psychological therapies across the country. IAPT was spending. However, mental ill health accounts for about initially launched with small pilot areas and then was 28% of morbidity and 23% of all GP appointments, formally launched in 2008. I do not think anyone here and recent estimates show that the overall economic would deny that the IAPT service has made progress. cost of mental illness in Britain is about £105 billion a We have seen 1 million people entering treatment and year. 680,000 people completing treatment, and we have seen Those are the raw statistics, but behind them is a recovery rates of about 45%, with 65% significantly story of broken lives, isolation and mental suffering. improved. The IAPT programme has led to 45,000 coming Every week in my constituency, I see people suffering off sick pay and benefits, and we have seen 4,000 new from a range of difficult mental health conditions as a practitioners trained in the national health service. result of personal circumstances, family breakdown The programme was started by the previous Government, and all kinds of different issues. I am sure that other and in February 2011, the current Government published hon. Members here today have had similar experiences their “No health without mental health” strategy, which in their constituencies. As a compassionate society, we committed them to investing more than £400 million have a duty to address the growing crisis of mental over four years into the IAPT programme. At the same health in Britain, not only by seeking to control its time as the publication of that strategy, the Department symptoms, but by tackling its underlying causes. of Health also published its “Talking therapies: A four-year Our approach to mental health has been dominated plan of action”, which had the objective that by March for too long by what I characterise as a medicalised 2015, 15% of the adult population would have access to model. A psychiatric approach has been dominant. I evidence-based psychological therapies that are capable am not arguing that psychiatry does not have a role to of delivering rates of recovery of 50% or more. Therefore, play in mental health, but it has been a dominant model some progress has been made, but I want to raise for the way in which we approach mental health care in serious questions today about how we should take the Britain, and the national health service is very focused IAPT programme forward, about the scale of our ambition, on drug-based solutions to mental health problems. and about the extent to which real choice is embedded The number of prescriptions for drugs to try to solve in the system. I believe that those questions need to be mental health problems has gone up exponentially over addressed urgently. the past decade, and as a result, I believe that our The Department of Health, in its assessment of IAPT— approach to mental health in the national health service its very comprehensive report was published in November is very much focused on control, rather than on tackling 2012—was clear about challenges that the IAPT programme the profound underlying causes of the growth of mental faced in the future. In particular, its report talked about health problems in Britain. the challenge of waiting times, stating that one of the challenges is That is why I want to discuss talking therapies today. It seems to me that talking therapies are a human and “building adequate service provision (including number of services, compassionate response to mental suffering, as our and size and efficiency of workforce) to ensure access for all who need treatment within 28 days of first contact.” constituents, our fellow citizens, and we all come to terms with the pressures of modern life, the increase The report discusses the challenge of: in family breakdown, and the sheer stresses of dealing “Unmet need—addressing issues concerning equitable access with information overload and the complexity of living to services where access is lower than expected among some in the modern world. This issue is not confined to any population groups.” one part of the population; it crosses the whole age It also refers to the challenge of “Patient choice”, which range, from children and young people through to goes to the heart of the questions that I am raising older people. today, and 243WH Psychological Therapies16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 244WH

[James Morris] We need to recognise those weaknesses in the existing IAPT programme, because there are still 50% of people “increasing information on treatment options and ensuring that who have been through the programme who have not treatment plans are agreed by both patient and therapist.” responded well to CBT. Some 85% of people who are Another challenge is the: currently suffering from severe mental anguish cannot “Funding distribution process—ensuring that appropriate gain access to any appropriate psychological therapy on investments continue to be made in local IAPT services, to the NHS. We urgently need a review of the existing continue to expand capacity and assure quality in line with the NICE guidelines, and I know that Professor David overall financial expectations set out in the Spending Review.” Haslam, the chair of NICE, has recognised the issue The Department of Health is clear, therefore, about the and has agreed to initiate a review. challenges faced by the further roll-out of the IAPT We also need to look again at how we formulate programme. In order to meet the challenges that come evidence on the efficacy of mental health treatment. For out of the Department’s assessment, we need radical certain long-term therapies, it might not be appropriate thinking. We need to build on the strength of the for research to be totally focused on randomised control existing IAPT programme, but we also need to address trials, which are also costly to undertake. We therefore some of its fundamental weaknesses, which I believe are need to look at new types of evidence base. We also holding the programme back. need to think about developing a new commissioning A central issue that we need to have an honest debate model for psychological services to create real choice. I about is the fact that the IAPT programme is still will come on to talk about how that might work. dominated by the use of one therapy—cognitive behavioural We also need to consider other groups who may therapy, or CBT. The National Institute for Health and benefit from greater choice and access to psychological Care Excellence guidelines that were drawn up in 2005 therapies. The hon. Member for Upper Bann (David made the recommendation that CBT should be the Simpson) talked about children and young people. He is default treatment option for the NHS, because it had right to be concerned about them; it is a major issue the most random-controlled-trial supporting evidence that we face in Britain today. Some 850,000 children for its effectiveness. In 2010, the guidelines were modified between the ages of five and 16 are known to have mental slightly to allow five other therapies into the NICE health problems. There is a children and young people’s recommended mix. The reality, however, is that IAPT is IAPT, which provides a broad range of interventions still dominated by CBT. Again, I am not arguing that, —parenting therapy, interpersonal psychotherapy and in many circumstances, for patients with particular family therapy. forms of anxiety and depression, CBT is not an appropriate I think we all know and agree that early intervention form of treatment. However, it is a short-term, highly for children and young people is crucial to prevent manualised approach to mental health treatment. problems from becoming more serious. Lots of evidence There is an interesting quote from NICE’s shows that early intervention at the onset of psychosis recommendations on psychological therapies: in children and young people and suitable psychological “In using guidelines, it is important to remember that the therapy treatment can prevent that from blowing up absence of empirical evidence for the effectiveness of a particular into something much more serious later on. Perhaps we intervention is not the same as evidence for ineffectiveness.” can learn some lessons from the children and young That is a wonderful little quote from NICE. people’s IAPT for adult services, while recognising that the children and young people’s IAPT needs to be One of the consequences of our approach to research developed further. into the efficacy of particular forms of mental health treatment, and of NICE’s approach to the formulation Also, we must not exclude or not think about the of its guidelines, is that long-term therapies such as needs of people aged over 65. As we all know, we have psychotherapy and psychoanalysis, to name just two, an ageing population, meaning that mental health in which require long-term commitment from the patient older people is an increasing problem. The Department’s and from the analyst, have effectively been locked out “Talking Therapies”action plan committed the Department of IAPT. In Britain, we have a mature and highly to address the underrepresentation of older people using professionalised cohort of therapists in psychotherapy IAPT. A quarter of people over the age of 65 have and psychoanalysis. They have, over the past five years, symptoms of depression that require intervention, but found themselves unable to provide the sort of capacity only one in six will consult their general practitioner. that we need in IAPT. One of the consequences of that, Therefore, IAPT needs to be tailored to meet the needs and of the dominance of CBT, with a focus on training of older people. Those needs are not just one, single up therapists to concentrate on CBT, is that we have a need; the needs of a 65-year-old may be different from monolithic model. those of a 90-year-old. Within IAPT, we have access, but no effective choice for the patient—choice that is focused on the individual Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I needs of the patients and on an assessment of the congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. patient’s particular requirements. We have a professional Earlier, he alluded, as my hon. Friend the Member for cohort of highly trained therapists in long-term therapies Upper Bann did, to the problems in the younger age who are unable to assist the NHS in extending capacity group, and now he is talking about the older age group. for the provision of psychological therapies and who Given the significant increase of referrals in the past are unable to become part of the conversation to address couple of years, does he agree that one of the overarching the programme challenges identified by the Department principles is that we will need significant additional of Health’s assessment of the three-year IAPT programme resources to deal with the problem right across the age in 2012. groups, from the young to the old? 245WH Psychological Therapies16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 246WH

James Morris: The hon. Gentleman makes an important A consequence of no guaranteed or set waiting time point. The fundamental nature of my argument is that is that thousands of people are awaiting referral while the current system, while it has made some progress, is suffering severe anguish. A constituent of mine who is not utilising the capacity that we should be able to suffering from a relatively severe mental health problem develop in order to cope with the increasing problems has received a referral, but is still waiting for treatment. that we face. IAPT needs to be tailored to older people That wait has been going on for a long time and he is in and to be more flexible to meet their needs. a state of severe anxiety and anguish. That is the direct As I said, IAPT has made some progress, but we need human consequence of the situation. We need to move to go further. Improving access is one thing; guaranteeing towards a waiting time target. I know people are wary it is another. The NHS constitution provides a right of talking about targets, but such targets speak to a to treatments recommended by NICE. The handbook to parity issue in the health service. If we have waiting time the constitution explains that that relates to any treatment targets for severe physical illness, it is surely right that that is we move towards waiting time targets for access to appropriate psychological therapies. Appropriate access “recommended by a NICE technology appraisal.” builds in choice, meets the needs of individual patients I am sorry to get a bit technical here, but I think the and moves us away from the monolithic approach I point is an important one. Technologies appraised by described earlier. NICE include devices, medicines, diagnostic methodology, surgical procedures, health promotion activities and When responding to the debate, I ask the Minister to other therapeutic technologies. Regarding technologies, consider the following points. We urgently need further computerised CBT for depression and anxiety is the research into the efficacy of long-term psychological only NICE-approved psychological therapy, which, on treatments. We need more holistic research combined the basis of the constitution, patients should have a with a more flexible NICE regime; as I said, Professor right to. Psychological therapies have been excluded Haslam recently acknowledged that work is needed on from the rights embedded in the NHS constitution, and the way that NICE approaches recommendations in we need to address that gap. that area. We need to give serious thought to a new commissioning model assisted by some of the reforms Also, there is no 28-week or any other waiting time that have been brought into NHS, such as commissioning target for psychological therapies. If I have a serious groups, and building on the any qualified provider physical illness, for example cancer, I will be seen and model, which brings choice and capacity into the NHS treated within a particular time frame, and I will know by allowing the highly professional cohort operating in my pathway of care, if that is the right way of describing the private sector to provide therapy on the NHS through it. However, if I have a mental illness, there is neither a IAPT. guarantee nor a waiting time target. Would the Minister seriously consider making or at least working towards a commitment to a 28-week Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) waiting time target for access to psychological therapies? (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that that is similar to Too many people are in a state of anxiety about when what happens during the perinatal period? If a woman they will get treatment and what that treatment will be. has a premature baby, thousands of pounds—if not We need urgent action, as other hon. Members have hundreds of thousands—will be spent on neonatal intensive said, to ensure that the IAPT programme is further care; whereas if she has a full-term baby, but has a developed for younger people and children and we need psychotic episode and requires in-patient mental health to commit to further research into what is causing the care, it is a complete postcode lottery as to whether she disturbing trend in mental illness among our young receives any help at all? people. We also need urgent action to ensure that older people are not locked out of the IAPT programme. The James Morris: I thank my hon. Friend for that debate is about more than the right policies; it is important intervention. She has done a tremendous amount of because we must address the anguish and suffering of work in that area. I totally agree with her point; we need our fellow citizens whose voices desperately need to be to shift our emphasis towards much more early intervention heard and whose stories are often the key to their cure. and ensure that the issue she identifies is addressed. Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): In addition to the Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): The Opposition spokesperson and the Minister, three hon. burden of the hon. Gentleman’s address today concerns Members have intimated that they wish to catch my eye. the therapies necessary to deal with mental health difficulties, I am sure that they will keep an eye on the clock. but surely, as my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann identified a few moments ago, the problem for the under-10s age group is that more research is needed into how a person under 10 is taken down the dark path of 9.54 am mental illness. We must find out what the problem is, as Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to well as identify some of the treatment. come here and support the hon. Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris), who has brought this James Morris: The hon. Gentleman makes a matter to Westminster Hall for consideration. As my good point. The chief medical officer is producing hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry recommendations about children and young people’s (Mr Campbell) said here yesterday, whenever we come mental health care, which will specifically look at evidence to Westminster Hall, we congratulate the Member whose on why the prevalence of such difficulties is increasing. debate it is on bringing an important matter to the She is becoming concerned about the growing problem. attention of the House. This is an important matter. 247WH Psychological Therapies16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 248WH

[Jim Shannon] but in 2010 was opened to adults of all ages. There has been success—it would be wrong to say that there The hon. Gentleman clearly outlined the issues and has not. their importance. My interest and that of my hon. In the first three years, 900,000 people were treated Friends is in how such issues affect our young people. for depression and anxiety; 450,000 patients are in That will be the thrust of my speech. I also want to give recovery, with another 200,000 moving towards recovery; a Northern Ireland perspective, which I believe is mirrored 25,000 fewer people with mental health problems are on across the whole United Kingdom. benefits; and the average waiting time has reduced from 18 months to a few weeks. In terms of what has been Dr McCrea: Does my hon. Friend agree that, for done so far, that is good news, but it is fair to say that many years, mental ill health has been a taboo subject? there is a lot more to do. There has been a significant Many of those suffering from mental health difficulties increase in the number of people with such issues, and were pushed away or hidden from society. The value of all statistics indicate that that number will continue to such a debate is that it ensures openness in society, to grow. deal with the important issue of mental ill health. People require psychological therapy for many different reasons. Members have spoken about the things that Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for raising that lead to the position we are in today and why society and matter. That is exactly the problem; if I wanted to sum Government must respond. Reasons for therapy can be it up in one phrase, that is the phrase I would use. There to do with home life and bereavement. On many occasions was a taboo around mental ill health in the past, but in my constituency office, we deal with bereavement and hopefully we can discuss it now. I hate the word “mental”, how it affects not only the partner, but the young people because it almost puts the thought in one’s mind of in the house. The hon. Member for Halesowen and someone to be kept at bay. We must be able to find Rowley Regis referred to that in his introduction. I another word in the English language that is more regularly see it in my office—the frailty of life, the sympathetic. I am not sure what it would be, but we suddenness of death and how that affects people. should give the matter consideration. Unemployment, when young people who cannot get Psychological therapies are defined as an interpersonal the jobs they need or the discipline that a job brings, process designed to bring about modification of feelings, and trouble in the workplace are other reasons for cognitions, attitudes and behaviour—all issues the hon. therapy. Another reason is childhood trauma, as we can Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis mentioned—that see from the sexual abuse cases of the past few years. have proved troublesome to the person seeking help Many people were not aware of such trauma, but it from a trained professional. That is what we want to existed. Social deprivation is another one, and all those achieve. issues contribute to where we are. The psychological therapies in the NHS 2013 event marked the halfway point of the coalition Government’s mental health strategy. Psychological therapies generally David Simpson: My hon. Friend mentioned young fall into three categories: behavioural therapies, which people again. Surely our schools, whether primary or focus on cognitions and behaviours; psychoanalytical secondary, need to focus on our teachers being trained and psychodynamic therapies, which focus on the to identify when a child has difficulties—the hon. Member unconscious relationship patterns that evolved from for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) mentioned childhood, which are important; and humanistic therapies, early intervention—so that treatment can be introduced which focus on self-development in the here and now. at an early stage, which could solve the problem for a We need to focus on those three categories. lifetime. I presume that most Members catch up on the news on BBC or Sky before they come here. A story today Jim Shannon: As my hon. Friend and colleague covered the role of carers and what they do for elderly mentioned, education is one of the areas in which people, but it also mentioned their role for those with Government can play a role, as can, I would say, mental health issues and focused in particular on the Departments responsible for health, social services and time that carers have to deliver care to people in those welfare. They all need to come together. two categories. It underlined where we are in the debate Among many other factors, one comes to mind, to do about those who suffer from psychological imbalance with young carers who look after their mum, dad, and emotional issues. brothers or sisters. In my constituency, there are about The Improving Access to Psychological Therapies 230 young carers, which is a massive number. They are programme was built on evidence, produced in 2004 by making a contribution to society, but they are also the the then National Institute for Health and Clinical main carers for their adults or siblings. Again, that is a Excellence, on treating people with depression and anxiety real issue. disorders. It was created to offer patients a realistic and In Northern Ireland, unemployment, too, causes routine first-line treatment, combined, where appropriate, problems because, among the regions of the United with medication, which traditionally had been the only Kingdom, it has the highest percentage of working-age treatment available. population not in paid employment—the figure is 30% Things have changed. The Minister, whom I respect higher than the UK average, which is 19% of individuals greatly, will outline the issues when he responds. The receiving a form of out-of-work benefit. The highest IAPT programme was dedicated to spending more than rates are recorded in Londonderry with 29%, Strabane £700 million on psychological therapies between 2008 with 29% and Belfast with 26%. Some 9% of the working- and 2014. It was first targeted at people of working age, age population receive disability living allowance, including 249WH Psychological Therapies16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 250WH the 3% who receive DLA for mental health reasons. 10.6 am That proportion has risen by 25% since 1998, and is more than the UK average, while 70% of those registered Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): Thank you for calling with a disability are not in paid work. me, Sir Edward. I am glad to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) Incidentally, am I the only elected representative to and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), have had an increase in referrals for those who have whose points were particularly relevant. I shall try not served in the forces suffering from post-traumatic stress to repeat them too often in my speech—that might disorder? I know the answer: no, I am not. In all my mean reducing its length slightly, people will be pleased years as an elected representative, I cannot recall having to hear. so many referrals of soldiers, male and female, for When I was first elected, a new aspect of my life was emotional, mental-health trauma suffered as a result of the size and complexity of the casework that came my their service. way. Much of it I expected and was familiar with, The Prince’s Trust, which many of us have knowledge having been a councillor, but the one facet that surprised— of and great faith in, has found that one in four young no, shocked—me was the obvious failure in our duty to people at work are down or depressed “always” or those with mental health issues. The next surprise was “often”—for people of that age to be downhearted or to discover that, in fact, the situation has improved over depressed is incredible. Unfortunately, that leads to an the past few years, and for that I pay tribute to the increase in the suicide rate among young people. In Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk parts of our Province, suicide is at frightening levels. A (Norman Lamb), and his predecessor, my right hon. few years ago in my constituency, there was a spate of Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow). suicides by young people, which was saddening for the Today, we have the news that Dr Martin Baggaley, people of our area, because we knew most of them—young commenting on the results of a BBC freedom of people who did not feel that there was much for them in information request, said that we are in “a real crisis” the future. We must address that issue. regarding the provision of mental health beds in England. The figure for young people who are down or depressed My hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk, the always or often, but are unemployed, is 50%. That is a Minister, is reported by the BBC to agree that that is massive figure. Clearly, a large section of people are at unacceptable. risk and, in my opinion, early intervention can and will At least, however, the BBC was able to obtain figures make a difference. However, to establish it, there must for the number of beds that have been lost. What would be funding. My hon. Friend the Member for Upper the response have been had the local trusts said, “Sorry, Bann (David Simpson) referred to those in education we don’t keep such figures. We have no idea of the diagnosing cases early, and that is one thing we can do. number of beds available”? In another possible scenario, Our own Health Minister in the Northern Ireland Assembly, one of us asks the Secretary of State for Health, “What Edwin Poots, has taken steps to address the issue, but a is the waiting time for the treatment of breast cancer or UK-wide strategy would be useful and must be considered. leukaemia?”, but the answer is, “I don’t know and I I am keen to hear what the Minister will say. can’t find out.” Would not the whole House erupt in Improving access to psychological therapies in all outraged uproar? Would not the press ask how proper areas such as health and employment for individuals, provision for those patients can be provided in such families and carers in Northern Ireland could relieve circumstances? anxiety, depression and distress. The long-term benefits Without adequate data and reporting, the needs of would be more than worth any initial cost. The funding millions of ill people cannot be addressed—people with has to be in order, but it has to be there to discharge mental health issues. Without decent information, resources effectively what has to be done. cannot be allocated correctly, results properly analysed In addition, improving mental and social well-being or effective treatment provided. Yet for much of mental can help prevent antisocial behaviour and family breakdown health provision, there is insufficient knowledge of whom for children and young people—again, in my constituency, we are treating, how we are treating them and how long we regularly witness the effect on people of family they are waiting for treatment. As my hon. Friend the breakdowns. It also might make a positive input into Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis mentioned, the rehabilitation of offenders and assist in the maintenance we do not have minimum waiting times for much of independence, reducing reliance on residential and psychological therapy. hospital care. The benefits are numerous and clear. Few data are collated for the national policy framework. Due to the years of suffering through the troubles, The data that we have focus on IAPT services and the many people in Northern Ireland have poor physical, rates for early mortality. My hon. Friend mentioned emotional, behavioural and/or mental health conditions. how early treatment of mental health problems can Dr Nichola Rooney, chair of the division of clinical stop far worse developments, but without proper data psychology in Northern Ireland, said that there is we cannot understand that. “historical underinvestment in psychological therapy services for people suffering from mental health difficulties in Northern Ireland”. Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): The hon. Gentleman is making an important point I am sure that is replicated UK-wide. about early intervention in mental health conditions. Clearly, we must continue to invest and see the rewards Does he agree that early intervention does not just stop of such therapy, not simply as a method of cutting an individual from cascading to the point at which their the costs of help in the future, but because it changes the life becomes dysfunctional, but has a tremendous economic quality of people’s lives and—a knock-on effect— impact in preventing time off work and the difficulties the lives of the people around them. Everyone benefits. that that causes for employers? 251WH Psychological Therapies16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 252WH

Mike Thornton: I agree. There is no doubt that early Andrew Selous: As colleagues have already stated, intervention for all forms of illness usually produces data on the type of therapies available under IAPT good results, and saves large amounts of money both in show that couple therapy is available in less than a relation to rates of people off work and the costs of quarter of cases. The data came from the “National treating them in the NHS. That can be seen for cancer Audit of Psychological Therapies for Anxiety and and heart failure, as well as mental health issues, so I Depression, National Report 2011”, so they are official. entirely agree with the hon. Lady. The figure for couple therapy is only 24.6%, while In my constituency, I have been particularly impressed interpersonal therapy is available in under half, or 48.3%, by Solent Mind’s talking therapy programme. That of the settings in which provision is made. For Improving Access to Psychological Therapies programme psychodynamic and psychoanalytic therapy, the figure has been effective and easy to access, and figures show is under 40%, at 39.8%, whereas cognitive behavioural that they it has provided access to a huge majority therapy is available in 94.9%—just under 95%—of cases. within 28 days of a referral. I am not sure whether that Those figures demonstrate the significance of CBT, is replicated across the country; I have been told that which for some people with mental health issues is probably it is not. absolutely the right treatment, but it is important to Such IAPT services are invaluable, but there are realise that CBT is clearly not the appropriate treatment disturbing reports that funds are provided for them for all those with mental health conditions. We should with money taken away from other mental health provision. also remember that all those therapies are approved and My hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Rowley recommended by NICE, and the evidence shows that Regis mentioned some examples, so I will not repeat all such treatments are effective for the right patients. them, but it is a bit like increasing funds for bowel I am particularly concerned that the benefits of a cancer care by taking cash from ovarian cancer treatment. relational approach to the treatment of depression are I wonder if this morning’s BBC report reflects what is not being realised and that, in many cases, individual happening in beds being lost to provide money for other CBT counselling is given where it is not appropriate. I therapies and services. want to tell a true story of one young couple’s experience Public Health England and NHS England have of interacting with the IAPT programme. Figures and announced the development of a mental health intelligence sums of money give the broad picture—they are our network, which has the potential to link all existing data stock in trade as Members of Parliament—but they are and map data gaps. However, given the consistent failure a bit high-level and do not capture the essence of to give mental health provision the same status as that mental health provision on the front line. for so-called physical health, there is a real risk that the Let me tell the story of Polly and Mark—to protect network will not have the resources needed to provide their anonymity, those are not their real names—who the data and analysis that are so urgently required. experienced considerable challenges in having two children, If we are to provide adequately for the one in four of with several miscarriages and a stillbirth. Polly became us who suffers from some form of mental illness and for very low and left her successful career. The hon. Member their families who suffer with them, I urge the Minister for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) has already to ensure that all local commissioning groups and trusts pointed out the cost to the economy when people have treat information regarding all forms of mental illness mental health issues. Polly’s husband, Mark, had a very with the same parity of esteem as that relating to difficult childhood, and he was badly affected by his physical illnesses. I again urge Members to remember parents’ violent and stormy relationship. that if someone is ill, they are ill. There would be no When Polly and Mark’s youngest child was two, Polly such lack of data if the absurd, anachronistic and confessed that she had had an affair seven years earlier, artificial distinction between physical and mental illness which left her feeling guilt and shame long after it did not exist. ended. On learning that, Mark was utterly devastated by the revelation and fell into a deep depression, with unmanageable rages during which he threatened to kill 10.12 am the other man. Polly developed severe headaches, so she went to her GP and was sent for tests. On finding Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Like nothing wrong, the GP recommended that Polly have my colleagues, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member individual counselling focusing on the stillbirth four for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) on years previously. After being unable to work and having bringing this important debate before the House. We three weeks of sleepless nights, Mark also visited his know from this morning’s radio bulletins that the discussion GP. Mark was referred to a psychiatrist, who diagnosed is topical and timely, and I am pleased to have the him as suffering from acute depression and prescribed opportunity to contribute to it. him antidepressants. My focus will be on the need to broaden the scope of The couple were acutely conscious that their relationship what is offered under IAPT, particularly in relation to was about to break down. Not having been offered any couple relationships. I strongly believe that it is hugely form of couple therapy by IAPT, they approached a in the interests of the NHS and the Department of voluntary sector service, and for six months, they went Health to realise the significance of strong couple to weekly couple therapy. At the same time, they were relationships to good health, which is essential to protecting offered cognitive behavioural therapy through IAPT. the NHS budget. That point is really important. They believed that the problem was their relationship, but health professionals clearly thought that the depression Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. Officials needed treatment. In couple therapy, Polly was able to should not talk to a Member of Parliament while the share her anxieties about her parents’ divorce and about debate is continuing. how she did not want her children to suffer as she had. 253WH Psychological Therapies16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 254WH

As the couple therapy progressed, Mark and Polly the hon. Gentleman is saying. Is he able to talk a bit became more open with each other and began to understand more about, or perhaps give a comment on, how having how their relationship problems were a product of both such a focus in a service can help children who are the recent and past difficulties. victim of the illness of their parents? An important point is that that couple therapy—it was not provided through IAPT; Mark and Polly had to Andrew Selous: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her go to the voluntary sector for it, because IAPT had comments. May I extend to her a very warm invitation offered them CBT that they did not need—was voluntary to come to the next meeting of the all-party parliamentary help that lasted for six months. My concern is that group on 6 November where we will consider such IAPT provision, whether of CBT or other measures, is issues further? She is absolutely right that these issues often given for only a short period, which is not always are intergenerational. If she was following the example appropriate or likely to be successful in such cases. of Mark and Polly, she would have learned that it was That true story illustrates powerfully why we need to their own parents’ stormy relationships that had affected look again at the IAPT programme, excellent though them. Of course their children were suffering deeply much of it is, and to take a relational approach to many from the problems that they were having in their own of the issues where appropriate. I hope that it has been relationship or marriage. Such issues are deeply related, helpful to Members to put that real-life case study on and she is completely right to say that the children the record. suffer hugely when there are relationship problems between the parents. It is vital that we get this matter right for Academic studies show why what I have said is important the children, and I would welcome her support on a and matters. Evidence reveals links between relationship cross-party basis on these important issues; they are quality, depression and re-employability. For example, a just too important to be bipartisan about. I would love meta-analysis conducted by McKee in 2005 concluded to have cross-party agreement on the importance of that lack of social support by partners in a relationship relational issues in public health, because I feel so has negative impacts on the physical and psychological passionately about the matter. health of the unemployed person and is especially associated with more frequent development of psychosomatic Another concern is the geographic differences in the symptoms, stress and depression. ability to get couple therapy through IAPT at the moment. Ruth Sutherland, the chief executive officer of Relate, The all-party parliamentary group for strengthening told me only yesterday that the programme is very couple relationships, which I chair, and the newly formed geographically bound. Provision is better in the north Relationships Alliance published only last week a report of England—I note that there are not many colleagues that said that relationships were the missing link in from the north of England in the Chamber today—than public health. That report showed that relationship in the south, so there is an inequality of access quality is often a key determinant of health and well-being, geographically, as well as there being fewer of these and that it has strong links with the ability to deal well sessions available across the UK as a whole. with cardiovascular disease, obesity, alcohol misuse and mental health issues. All those issues link up, and Let me make one further point to the Minister about strengthening the health of couple relationships is often why one part of IAPT provision is an incredibly serious right at the heart of them. matter for the whole NHS. As a clinician, he will know about the huge importance of long-term conditions, If we look at what has happened since the IAPT which are faced by so many of our constituents. He will programme began—I understand that it receives funding be well aware of the significant demands that they will of about £400 million a year—we can see that the make on the NHS in years to come. I am talking about investment has been very much towards cognitive strokes and dementia and all sorts of other long-term behavioural therapy, with interpersonal psychotherapy, ailments that many of our constituents will live with for counselling for depression, brief dynamic therapy and a very long time. couple therapy the poor relations in the area. I heard a moving story a couple of weeks ago from a In a written parliamentary question, answered on gentleman who was visiting his elderly parents in 8 January 2013 and printed in volume 556, column 258, Manchester. He said that between them as a couple they of the Official Report, we learn that of 1,225 sessions could function. Between the two of them, they had one in 2012-13 only 99 were for couple therapy, whereas pair of eyes, ears and legs that worked. They were both 459 were for CBT low-intensity therapy and 322 for sick in different ways. They could cope and look after CBT high-intensity therapy. If we look at the period each other, but what would have happened if they had from 2008-09 all the way through to the projections for split in younger years? They might have been like Polly 2013-14, we will see that of nearly 8,000 different sessions— and Mark and had difficulties and not been able to 7,958 to be precise—only 297 were for couple therapy. receive the type of help that I have outlined. Let us say The story that I have just given of Polly and Mark that they did sadly split up, like so many couples do shows that such sessions are needed up and down are today. They would be in two different flats in different country and can indeed make a significant difference. parts of Manchester needing far more help from their GP and far more adult care, and that would fall on the Seema Malhotra: The hon. Gentleman is making a clinicians for whom the Minister is responsible and on powerful speech on the importance of having a relational adult social services. Yes, it would have an impact on base to services. In my own constituency of Feltham their families, and we would all be paying more through and Heston, I visited a service that was started a year our taxes and there would greater burdens on business ago by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty as well from having to look after that couple in two to Children. It works with children who have parents different settings. The importance of strong couple with drug and alcohol problems. I am struck by what relationships in older age, in later life, is critical not least 255WH Psychological Therapies16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 256WH

[Andrew Selous] today. We can see them in the workplace, where mental illness is the largest single cause of long-term sick leave; to deal with the increase in long-term conditions, which we can see them in our criminal justice system, where are becoming more and more prevalent and which 70% of those in our prisons have a mental illness; and many of our constituents will be coping with for many we can see them in our economy, where mental ill health years to come. That is my final pitch to the Minister. costs Britain’s businesses £26 billion every year, or We are talking specifically about mental health and £71 million every day.Also, in our health service, according IAPT. I understand that a lot of good work is being to the London School of Economics the physical health done under IAPT and that it is an excellent programme, care necessitated by mental illness costs the NHS an but I ask the Minister, when he goes back to his Department extra £10 billion each year. All of those points show and talks to his colleagues and the Secretary of State, to why the case for action could not be any clearer. take back with him the absolute centrality of strong I am sure that, like myself, many hon. Members will relational health up and down are country as far as have had experience of constituents coming to them for public health, the burdens on the NHS and his Department assistance; indeed, several hon. Members have referred are concerned. to those experiences in their contributions to the debate. Constituents come to us in deep distress and dire 10.29 am circumstances. However, many of those situations could have been avoided if those people had received specialist Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): treatment for mental illnesses at a much earlier stage. I Thank you, Sir Edward, for calling me to speak. It is a echo the hon. Member for Halesowen and Rowley pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning. Regis, who said that it is absolutely crucial that we look This has been a thoughtful and important debate on at this issue of early intervention. a subject that is not talked about nearly enough. Every That was why in 2007 the last Labour Government day in Britain, people of all ages and backgrounds, and launched the IAPT programme, which helped to make from all communities, have their lives blighted by the respected and evidence-based therapies available to more spectre of mental illness. Theirs are some of the great people than ever before. As we heard in the hon. untold stories of our society. As many hon. Members Gentleman’s opening speech, thousands of people have have already said, the issue of mental health has been been helped on that programme so far. Since then, the swept under the carpet for too long. One in six people current Government have continued the programme are afflicted by mental illness, but all too often they are and extended it to cover more people, which is a welcome scared into silence. That is why this discussion is so step. However, as this debate has made clear, IAPT is important. still a developing scheme, with areas that are in need of I also congratulate the hon. Member for Halesowen much improvement. So, my second theme is to focus on and Rowley Regis (James Morris) on securing this those areas that require attention, and I would be debate and on the campaigning that he has done on this grateful if the Minister could address them in his closing issue. In addition, I thank him for giving me the opportunity remarks. to talk about mental health in my first debate as Labour’s There are three areas in particular that require attention. newly appointed shadow Minister with responsibility The first is funding. Spending on IAPT has increased for public health. from zero in 2008-09, when the programme was first This debate is even more timely because of the news launched, to £214 million in 2011-12. The Department that we have heard on the BBC this morning, to which a of Health has also allocated £54 million to improve number of hon. Members have already referred. Dr access to therapies for children and young people, which Baggaley, the director of medicine at South London is a good step. However, it must be noted that Ministers and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust, has said that always pledged that IAPT funding would be additional our mental health services are in “crisis”, following the funding and would not replace existing psychotherapy news—after the BBC made freedom of information services. Despite those assurances, non-IAPT therapy requests—that in a little more than two years we have services have been cut by more than 5%. Funding has seen the loss of 1,700 mental health beds. I note that the fallen from £185 million in 2009-09 to £172 million in Minister of State, Department of Health, who is the 2011-12. What makes that even more worrying is that Minister with responsibility for care, said this morning overall mental health spending has been cut in real that the situation is “unacceptable” and that the provision terms for the second year in a row. must improve. I hope that the Minister who is here in That real-terms cut has particular resonance when it Westminster Hall today will refer to that when he comes to the second area that requires attention, which responds to the debate. is waiting times; again, waiting times have already been We have heard a number of valuable contributions mentioned by hon. Members during this debate. NICE’s this morning. In responding to the excellent points that aim is that patients receive access to evidence-based have been made, I will cover three broad themes: first, I therapies within 28 days of referral. It is regrettable that will reiterate the importance of early intervention; secondly, this debate falls the day before the latest programme I will talk about the improving access to psychological statistics are published. According to the latest figures, therapies programme, including some specific issues however, which are for 2012-13, more people are having about how IAPT needs to work better; and thirdly, I to wait longer to start receiving treatment for anxiety or will talk about what we need to do beyond IAPT. depression. Let me begin with early intervention. As hon. Members have already said, the long-term consequences are clear Seema Malhotra: My hon. Friend makes very important if we do not tackle mental illness early; indeed, we can points about waiting times and how they have continued, already see those consequences right across our society and also about the cuts to services. Given that the 257WH Psychological Therapies16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 258WH number of university students seeking counselling has grants to patients; that we will create a genuine parity risen by a third in the last four years, does she agree that between mental and physical health care; and that we it is important to recognise the impact that the drop in will set down a new right of access to the therapies that funding could be having on vulnerable students, sometimes we have been talking about this morning. That will forcing them to leave university, which can affect the mean that mental health patients will be entitled not rest of their life? With the number of students in that only to drugs and other medical treatments but to situation increasing and without data for average waiting psychological therapies, and they will have the same times, we must recognise the importance of early guarantees on waiting times, professional advice and intervention and very fast response. patient experience. However, in addition to how long it takes to receive Luciana Berger: I thank my hon. Friend for that treatment, we need to examine the range of therapies intervention, and she raises an important issue. There that are available in the first place, which brings me to are lots of different groups of people who do not have my third broad theme; again, it is a theme that has been access to these sorts of services or who have to wait a already been referred to by other hon. Members, but it disproportionate amount of time to access them. We is important to reinforce it and to ask the Minister to have already heard hon. Members talking about older respond to it. Different people are affected by different people who might not be able to access the IAPT mental health conditions for all sorts of different reasons. programme, and my hon. Friend refers to university That is why we need diverse mental health provision, students, who do not necessarily fall into the category with a range of therapies, to cater for people with of children and young people, but who, as young adults, different needs, preferences and personalities. As the are struggling with leaving home and with financial hon. Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis said, pressures. only five types of therapy are currently available via I have not seen any direct research about what effect IAPT. Moreover, 90% of IAPT funding has gone towards the current cost of living crisis is having on our cognitive behaviour therapies, with limited support for population—I hope that there will be some research other modes of therapy. The United Kingdom Council into that issue—but my experience from my case load as for Psychotherapy has described this as an a constituency MP indicates that we have a problem in “overwhelmingly manualised and brief approach to therapy that our society regarding the pressures of life. More people sits at odds with the professional practice of the majority of are having to access these services and therefore the leading psychotherapists and counsellors.” services should be available, which makes the issues of We need to look at going beyond basic therapies that waiting times even more relevant. help people go about their day-to-day lives more adequately. More than 115,000 people had to wait more than There needs to be appropriate room for more intense 28 days from referral until their first treatment or therapy and longer term psychological treatments, so that the session, which was a 19% increase from the previous underlying causes do not go unaddressed. year. The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) made the point that this issue is not mentioned the need for couples therapies. The hon. only about the statistics but the people behind the Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis also talked statistics, who have to go through the trauma of waiting about older peoples’ problems with accessing treatment. for treatment and suffering the uncertainty of not knowing There is a patient choice issue, too. According to a when it will come. survey of 500 service users by Mind, only 8% of people On Monday, someone contacted me to say that they had a full choice about which therapy they received and had been waiting for a year and a half for cognitive just 13% had a choice about where they received therapy. behavioural therapy in the Wirral, on Merseyside, and The 8% who had full choice of therapies—a very small just this morning on BBC Breakfast there was a woman number—were, on average, three times happier with who was interviewed who had had to wait 17 months their treatment and five times more likely to say that for talking therapies treatment. Eventually, she had to therapy had helped them back into work. As the programme be sectioned as her condition deteriorated while she develops, we need to do all we can to ensure that it waited for treatment. These cases are not unusual— caters to people’s individual needs. there are too many cases like them—and it pains me to What needs to be done beyond IAPT? As welcome as learn of them. According to a report produced by the IAPT is, we have to remember that the programme We Need to Talk coalition of mental health charities currently only aspires to be available to 15% of the and royal colleges, one in five people have been waiting population. The programme’s three-year report, published for more than a year to receive treatment. However, the last November, shows that it is currently delivering 45% same report found that people who receive treatment recovery rates and aims to reach 50% by March 2015. within three months are almost five times more likely to The big question this raises is, what about the other 50% be helped back into work by therapy than others who to 55%—the 50% who continue to suffer from conditions, have to wait for one or two years. As another person having gone through the IAPT process, but are not wrote to me this week, even a six-week wait can seem a eligible for more intensive psychotherapy services under whole lot longer if someone is clinically depressed. Just the stepped care model? That question, and this debate, as we focus on waiting times for cancer treatment and requires an answer that goes far beyond the IAPT other examples of physical care, we must do the same programme. It requires ending the artificial dividing for mental health therapies. lines in our NHS and pursuing a whole person, fully I will repeat the commitment, which my right hon. integrated approach to mental, physical, social and care Friend the Leader of the Opposition made a year ago, issues, as Labour has indicated, and it demands a that the next Labour Government will rewrite the NHS complete revaluation of how we, as a country, think constitution; that we will strengthen the rights that it about and approach mental health. That is what Labour’s 259WH Psychological Therapies16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 260WH

[Luciana Berger] on—much more collaborative work—between the NHS and the armed forces, to ensure that general practitioners mental health taskforce is looking at, under the expert and health care professionals in England are much leadership of Stephen O’Brien, the chair of Barts Health more aware of armed forces personnel coming back NHS Trust. into their care, after serving in the armed forces, that a General mental health support should not start in more holistic approach is taken, that people do not hospital or the treatment room. It needs to start in our present too late in crisis and that GPs can be much more workplaces, our schools and our communities, even proactive in offering reassurance and support to veterans across our kitchen tables and in the conversations we who may be running into the early signs of difficulties. have with one another. There is no reason why we My counterpart in Northern Ireland has been working should not be able to talk about mental health and hard on that and he should be commended for it. psychological therapies in the same way we do about My hon. Friends the Members for South West access to sexual health services, vaccinations or cancer Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) and for Eastleigh (Mike treatment, but we have a long way to go. Thornton) made important contributions about the I look forward to the Minister’s response. I hope that holistic approach to health care in general, about how he will respond to my questions and issues raised by mental health needs to be considered holistically and other hon. Members. Returning to my opening comments about the benefits to wider society of upstream on today’s news about the crisis in mental health provision interventions. Getting health care right can also provide and the reduction in the number of beds, the point of additional benefits for the economy; for example, by our debate is access to services that would prevent supporting families to stay together and bring up their people from going into those beds in the first place. children. All these things are beneficial and at the heart However, we hear today that bed capacity is at 100%. I of my work on early interventions projects. My hon. hope that the Minister will mention those issues as well, Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster because they are interlinked. (Dame Angela Watkinson), who is no longer in this Chamber, and I are working closely on that.

10.44 am Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I apologise for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health being late. I was at another meeting. I, too, congratulate (Dr Daniel Poulter): It is a pleasure to serve under your the hon. Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis chairmanship, Sir Edward. I pay tribute to my hon. (James Morris) on securing the debate. Has the Minister Friend the Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis already secured a meeting with Welsh Government (James Morris) for securing this debate, for his tremendous Ministers, or will he do so in future, to discuss the work on the all-party group in highlighting the importance approach towards veterans that he outlined? That issue of mental health and the need to continue to raise is close to my heart, because I am aware of emergency mental health issues and for his supporting the Government rescue situations in which things have gone too far, in seeking parity between physical and mental health, to when services, including mental health services, have which we have been committed since the coalition came been stretched way beyond their means in dealing with to power in 2010. I congratulate the hon. Member for them. There would be benefits from sharing best practice Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) on her promotion across all the regions and nations. to her new role and commend her largely bipartisan approach to the debate and on recognising that some of Dr Poulter: The hon. Gentleman is right. We UK these issues are bigger than party politics. Health Ministers work collaboratively on many issues. Before I deal with some important issues raised by However, on veterans, we have to recognise that, although my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Rowley we have UK-wide armed forces, health is a devolved Regis, I want to touch on the contributions of other responsibility. We need to share different initiatives hon. Members and talk about the context in which we better between the devolved Administrations. Some are operating. We recognise, as a Government—I think remote areas of Wales, in particular, could learn from that all hon. Members in this debate have recognised—that best practice in the NHS about how we are using, to for far too long we focused on crisis management in good effect, specialist mental health teams for veterans. health care generally, particularly in mental health, I should be happy to share that and meet my counterpart rather than on upstream interventions, which is where in Wales, to talk that through in greater detail. IAPT plays such an important role to keep people well I will focus in particular on the important contribution in their own homes and communities, instead of picking of my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and up the pieces when they become so unwell at the other Rowley Regis. He addressed a number of issues that are end. There is a good economic argument for that, but it central to the provision of good mental health care, and also provides much better care for the patients and the he threw down some challenges on how we could potentially people we all care about as Members of Parliament, make things better. In particular, he praised the scale of and whom I care about as a doctor. the Government’s ambition to have genuine parity between The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) physical and mental health, which has to be right; it is at raised some important issues about veterans’ health. He the centre of everything that we are looking towards in knows that I have personally committed to improving the good commissioning of services locally. the provision of physical and mental health care for our I reassure the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree armed forces veterans. There are now 10 dedicated that, with the addition of IAPT, there has been a teams in England, focusing on supporting our veterans substantial increase in the NHS’s total investment in who have post-traumatic stress disorder and other mental psychological therapies. As she will be aware, however, health problems, post-discharge. A lot of work is going it is down to local commissioners to prioritise their 261WH Psychological Therapies16 OCTOBER 2013 Psychological Therapies 262WH resources to meet local need, based on the local population people with long-term physical health problems and that they serve. In the past, the challenge has been that those with severe mental illness to ensure that everyone good commissioning has too often been seen purely can access therapies. There is an emphasis on those who through the framework of physical health. Through the are out of work, the black and minority ethnic populations NHS Commissioning Board’s mandate, we are now and older people and their carers. ensuring that there is parity between mental and physical IAPT is being made available throughout the country. health. That journey is already well under way to ensure The programme was started by the previous Government that good commissioning is no longer just about in 2008, and we now have an IAPT service in every commissioning for acute services, such as stroke and clinical commissioning group. There are more than heart attack, but about looking at the whole patient and 4,000 trained practitioners, and more than 1 million considering the importance of upstream interventions, people are entering and completing treatment. Recovery which are central to IAPT’s role in looking after patients. rates have consistently been in excess of 45%, and they My hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and are much greater in many areas. The programme already Rowley Regis also talked about the need to consider has a clear track record of evidence-based success, and CBT and its evidence base. As he knows, it is not the it is helping to reach some of the most disadvantaged role of Ministers to question the integrity of NICE, but and marginalised people in our society, which we would NICE keeps its criteria under review, and there is a very all say is a good thing. strong evidence base to support CBT. The evidence base for IAPT is continually being developed and adapted, Andrew Selous: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and a number of pilots are already in place to consider about the evidence. Although this is a little premature, the potential to extend the scope of therapies, including he might be aware that the Department for Education to older people. I hope that that is reassuring. NICE has just commissioned evidence on the efficacy and will be listening to this debate, and it continues to cost-benefits of couple counselling. I have sometimes evaluate the evidence. With mental health, there has heard it said that there is no evidence for anything other always been controversy on how evidence is collated, than CBT, so will he say a little about the range of because mental health is different from physical health, provision available under IAPT, specifically in relation and NICE will keep that under review when it adapts to couple counselling? and introduces future guidelines. The debate has been called because all hon. Members Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will in the room believe that, for too long, there has been too address children’s IAPT in a moment, because the hon. much focus on crisis management and acute response Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) made an when patients with mental health conditions become important point on that. very unwell. We would all like to see much more focus My hon. Friend is right that, through not only IAPT on upstream intervention, which is what IAPT is all but other programmes that consider health care more about. We need to move the focus away from SSRIs— holistically—particularly the family nurse programme, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors—and drug-based which is aimed at vulnerable teenage mums—upstream therapy towards upstream, proactive intervention for intervention supporting those vulnerable groups helps what is sometimes a very vulnerable patient group. to keep couples together and helps reduce rates of The benefits of early intervention have been outlined domestic violence. The programmes also support a by many hon. Members. There are clear health benefits, stronger bond between mum and baby, so the child does but there are also economic benefits, benefits to the better at school and mum and dad are supported to get family and benefits from getting people back to work, back into education, training and work. So it is a education and training, and from supporting people to win-win situation for the economy, and it helps vulnerable have more productive and happier lives. That is why we younger parents to have a better start in their own lives will continue to ensure parity of esteem in commissioning and provides a better start in life for their children. That for physical and mental health, and it is why we will is not exclusive to family nurses; we are also considering continue to support upstream interventions in the early how the approach may be developed with IAPT, so that years—I will address early-years IAPT later. We will we can have a more joined-up approach both to children’s also ensure that we continually drive good commissioning health generally and to families. to encompass mental health as well as physical health. Earlier this year, I launched a system-wide pledge That holistic approach to health care, by prioritising across education, local authorities, the voluntary sector mental health, is good for people’s health care, good for and the NHS to do everything we can to give each and families and good for the economy. That is why we will every child the best start in life. Part of the pledge is ensure that it remains a priority. to do exactly what my hon. Friend outlines, which is to As hon. Members will be aware, the mandate set by focus on getting early and upstream interventions right the Government for NHS England last year establishes to support children in having the best start in life. We a holistic approach as a priority for the whole NHS for are also seeing the benefits of supporting families and the first time. Improving access to psychological therapies reducing rates of domestic violence. I hope that is is fundamental to the success of improving mental reassuring, and we will continue to develop and press health. The mandate makes it clear that everyone who those policies. needs them should have timely access to evidence-based Briefly, our children’s IAPT programme is no less services. That is particularly important for mental health. ambitious in its aim to transform services. In 2011, we By the end of March 2015, IAPT services will be announced funding for children and young people’s available to at least 15% of those who could benefit—an IAPT of £8 million a year for four years, and in 2012, estimated 900,000 people a year. We are also increasing we agreed significant additional investment of up to the availability of services to cover children and young £22 million over the next three years, which is a total of 263WH Psychological Therapies 16 OCTOBER 2013 264WH

[Dr Poulter] A14 (Tolling Proposals)

£54 million up to 2015. That additional funding will be 11 am used to extend the range of evidence-based therapies to include systematic family therapies and interpersonal Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a psychotherapy, to extend the range, reach and number great pleasure to have secured this debate. I welcome the of collaborators within the project and to develop interactive Minister to his new role. If he is as adept in this role as e-learning programmes to extend the skills and knowledge he was when performing his former duties, we will have of professionals such as teachers, social workers and a terrific Roads Minister. He has had a baptism of fire, counsellors. Again, there is a multi-agency approach to having already done two 90-minute debates yesterday, improving the support and care available to children, but I am sure he is coping admirably. because this is not just about the NHS, but about local The A14 is a strategic route for UK plc. It is heavily authorities and education working together to get it congested in certain areas, and upgrading it is a national right for young people. Behind those facts and figures priority. The Government and councils are planning to are the people whose lives and services have been invest £1.5 billion in upgrading the A14 and also the transformed by IAPT. A1. However, the Government have singled out through- To conclude, it might be worth outlining a recent users of the A14 for tolling even though no other major conversation that I had with a GP. When talking about road improvement scheme planned for the next 10 years IAPTs in West Sussex, he said, “I hear from GP colleagues is to be tolled. There is a risk that that will effectively that this is the single most positive change to their amount to a tax on businesses in East Anglia—bad medical practice in the last 20 years, and I echo this. news for one of UK plc’s leading growth areas. Our local service reaches out to the community, and it is The A14 is a key route for traffic between the UK’s always looking at ways to improve. It is continually largest container port, Felixstowe, and the midlands. Its developing new evidence-based interventions for people importance is recognised in its status as a trans-European with anxiety and depression, delivered one-on-one and transport network, or TEN-T. It also serves commuters in groups in a flexible way that means patients have real to the city of Cambridge, home to the world-famous choice. They have filled a huge gap in need and are a science park, which is a fast-growing economic hub. In force for good.” That is absolutely right, and it is why the infrastructure statement in June, the Government we will continue to develop parity between mental and recognised the importance of the A14 and announced physical health and continue to expand the IAPT that the start date for the work would be brought programme. forward two years, to 2016—a decision that I and many others greatly welcome. The infrastructure statement included 24 other road upgrades, which the Government will fund in their entirety. I am proud that the coalition Government are investing so heavily in infrastructure, especially since the previous Government, frankly, did not do enough of that. However, none of those 24 other routes will be co-financed by tolling. Roads supporting other economic hubs and routes with significant increases in capacity will enjoy fully funded upgrades, including the M25 improvements at Tilbury, the A1 in Yorkshire and, indeed, the proposed A1 from Newcastle to Scotland. It was suggested that the £1 billion M4 relief road in Wales would be subject to tolls, but that was ruled out very quickly—almost within 24 hours. Singling out the A14 for tolling appears arbitrary and somewhat unfair. I represent the constituency of Suffolk Coastal, which includes the port of Felixstowe. However, this is not simply an issue of the potential threat to that port, which competes against many others along the south and east coasts. Tolling the A14 will have a wider impact on many businesses in Suffolk, Norfolk, north Essex and Cambridgeshire. It is therefore no wonder that business organisations and local enterprise partnerships in those areas have come out against the toll. Two toll-free alternative routes are being offered for all traffic, although each will add considerable distance and time to journeys. The existing trunked A14 is to be de-trunked and key infrastructure is to be removed, so capacity is being removed. That is in stark contrast to the only other tolled trunk road in the country, the M6 toll, which offered a genuine new road. The proposals also do not reflect the fact that at the point of proposed enhancement, between Cambridge and Huntingdon, HGVs from the port of Felixstowe 265WH A14 (Tolling Proposals)16 OCTOBER 2013 A14 (Tolling Proposals) 266WH currently make up just 3% of traffic and are dwarfed in It seems contradictory to single out that one stretch number by local commuters. I am afraid that the perception of the A14, as the existing A14 is rerouted and de-trunked, in Suffolk is that East Anglian businesses will end up when the A1, which will also be significantly improved, paying for easing congestion for Cambridge commuters. will not be tolled. The Highways Agency suggests that de-trunking the A14 addresses the Department for Considerable effort has been made to shift more Transport’s ambition to place the right vehicles on the freight on to rail. The Government are helping with right roads, which suggests that the DFT is, in effect, that, and I welcome their investment in the Ipswich forcing traffic on to the toll road. chord and the work to be done at Ely junction, which will really help efforts to increase the amount of freight The two non-tolled alternatives for HGVs in the moving from road to rail. European funding available consultation will push a lot of traffic on to the A428 to TEN-T projects has also been secured for those and the A1M. Quite a number of hauliers are already projects. However, I am not aware that any EU funding starting to use the alternatives, as we know. There is a has yet been secured for the proposed A14 enhancement. risk that the toll will have the unintended consequence I would like to hear from the Minister what plans there that we see considerably more traffic using that route. are to secure such funding. We will end up in a situation in which people in St Neots are going nuts about how much traffic is going through I shall go through some of the key stages of the their town. The situation could be even worse for St Ives, proposal. When we looked at the consultation, we were a pleasant little market town, as the other proposed disappointed that the Highways Agency refused to hold alternative is to go through St Ives and then around a consultation meeting in Suffolk. All the meetings were the edge of Huntingdon. I hope the Department and held in Cambridgeshire, even though there is reference the Minister are aware of those possible unintended after reference in the consultation document about, in consequences. effect, forcing HGVs on to the trunked road by making sure that that was the easiest route to use and making Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I congratulate my other routes quite difficult to use so that businesses hon. Friend on securing the debate. She is making a would end up using the tolled roads. The Highways compelling case. Agency made a bad mistake there, which I hope it does not repeat. I was born in Suffolk. I have lived there my whole life and I have worked there for much of it. In that time, I The solution in the consultation removes the existing have witnessed a dramatic growth in the logistics industry, A14, including demolishing the A14 bridge, therefore based on the port of Felixstowe and mostly located reducing road capacity. I would like the Minister to along the A14 corridor. Does my hon. Friend agree that explain why the parliamentary answer given to me by proposals such as this could have a significant negative his predecessor, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, impact on the logistics industry in Suffolk and on the my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Suffolk economy as a whole? Does she also agree that Hammond), talks about increasing capacity when it the Department for Transport needs to look again at feels as if capacity is being reduced. this proposal and to consult properly with Suffolk businesses and Suffolk people, and that, if there is to be I mentioned the issues for Suffolk Coastal and the a toll road, there should also be a realistic alternative, port of Felixstowe. One issue for local haulage businesses although, ideally, the A14 should not be tolled at all? relates to DP World, just up the road at Tilbury. Improvements are being planned to junction 30 of the M25, which is close to that port. It is planned that those Dr Coffey: I support my hon. Friend’s sentiments. improvements will be paid for entirely by the taxpayer. The wider impact does not seem to have been assessed. Although I am convinced that the magnificent port of In fact, there appears to be an assumption in the Felixstowe will continue to invest and to compete with Government, which I think is wrong, that demand for DP World, imposing tolling charges on one of its key using the A14 is completely inelastic to the toll. In fact, routes adds additional costs for customers and hauliers. as the Department will know, there are basically two There is a real risk, which does not seem to have been types of hauliers: first, those that definitely need to taken into account, that container lorries will simply arrive on time; and secondly, those for whom cash flow divert to the Al and the M25 at the expense of Felixstowe. is key. Adding to the cost of coming in and out of That is certainly bad news for the port of Felixstowe Suffolk and other parts of East Anglia creates a risk to and supporting businesses, but it is also bad news for our economy. This is an issue not just for Felixstowe, UK plc. but for other parts of Ipswich, for Bury St Edmunds and for Haverhill, as well as for Lowestoft, which is in It has been suggested that a tolling element is required the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for to help pay for all these infrastructure changes, but Waveney (Peter Aldous). there has been no indication of how long the tolls will be imposed for. Will it simply be for the financing of the Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): I project? I received a written answer suggesting that the congratulate my hon. Friend on a superb speech. She is anticipated revenue is £30 million per year, but there has saying everything that I would say. been no indication of how long tolling will last. Tolling has been suggested for only one part of the Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. Will the hon. road, the new A14 carriageway, which is the bypass Gentleman address the Chair and not turn his back? around Huntingdon. The project has been designed specifically to force through traffic on to the tolled Mr Ruffley: My hon. Friend asks why there was not road. However, no charges are planned for the brand-new greater consultation with Suffolk. Does she agree that local roads that will be built or for the enhanced A1. now, because, as she mentioned, other A roads in our 267WH A14 (Tolling Proposals)16 OCTOBER 2013 A14 (Tolling Proposals) 268WH

[Mr Ruffley] 11.13 am region and other regions are not being tolled, there is a Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): Of course, Mr Leigh. risk that there will be an A road apartheid in Suffolk— Thank you; I intend to speak only for a minute or two. I discrimination against business users, and other travellers thank my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal into the county? Could that be deleterious to logistics (Dr Coffey) for giving me a little time, and the Minister companies in Bury St Edmunds, Stowmarket and Needham for allowing me to speak. I congratulate my hon. Friend Market, in my constituency, and, equally importantly, on securing this important debate. in the golden triangle of Norwich, Ipswich and Cambridge? Today there was another fall in the joblessness figures That is one of the engine rooms of growth for the whole in Ipswich, which is a sign of a vibrant and important nation. economy. Suffolk, Norfolk and Cambridgeshire have a larger economy than Scotland’s. They are a vibrant part of the country, which has not fallen into recession and Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend is right. I hope that the which is powering private sector-led innovative economic Minister realises that we are united across the county in growth. That is a good thing, and the Government, for our concern about the economic impact on the county once, are investing in that success. and region, particularly in the light of our growth industries. My hon. Friend put that well. We are always bereft of infrastructure in the east of England. The A11 work that was promised many times To go into a little more detail, there were various by the previous Government is now delivered. The options with the original consultation and it seems that previous Government spoke at length about the A14. we have taken up option 3, which includes the Huntingdon We are grateful for the Government’s consideration, southern bypass scheme and removal of the A14 bridge, and understand the financial pressure on the Treasury. and whose estimated cost is £687 million, with a benefit-cost We are also grateful for the fact that much has already ratio of 2.15 and 2.26 million vehicle hours saved; and been done to make the tolling proposals more reasonable option 5, which also includes the bypass and would than we feared. retain the trunked A14 through Huntingdon, with the Let us, however, be straight about the reason for what addition of local roads. is happening: it is because Cambridge is such a remarkable The estimated cost of option 5 is £1.2 billion, nearly success. We do not begrudge Cambridge that; it is part double that of option 3, with a BCR of 3.49 and of the economic success story of the region. However, 2.98 million vehicle hours saved. In both cases the we in Ipswich, where many hauliers are based, are eastbound saving is 19 minutes and the westbound effectively being asked to pay a congestion charge for saving is 14. The document gave, as a reason for introducing Cambridge, and that is wrong. It is wrong for economic local access roads, allowing tolling to be put in more success, which is more fragile in east Suffolk, to be easily; so it seems that the scheme has been designed to impeded by Cambridge’s wild and ever growing success. make tolling easier, although introducing those local We ask the Minister to reconsider alternative schemes roads would increase complexity and cost at the Girton that would put the cost on to the main users and the junction. The combination of the two options is coming main reasons for the congestion, which do not include out at £1.5 billion, but that sum is also due to enhancements the hauliers of Ipswich, Felixstowe and east Suffolk. to the A1, which were never part of the original proposals. Southampton will receive an electric spine under the There are several issues to consider. My hon. Friend Government’s bold infrastructure plans. The new the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) wants to speak, Thamesport will receive road upgrades and an electrified so I shall draw my remarks to a close. The A14 needs to link. However, Felixstowe, the largest container port in be improved. I thank the Government for investing so the country, does not, unlike Immingham, have an heavily in that key route for our region and for UK plc. electric link by rail. In addition to our not having such a However, users feel that they already pay their share; link, our principal route into the country will be tolled. they do not want to be singled out to pay a toll while That will be a double disadvantage for the country’s other parts of the road network continue to be fully largest container port—the fourth largest in the world. financed. It will have a significant impact on my constituents, many of whom are employed in the shipping industry. I am proud to support the “No Toll Tax on Suffolk” It may turn our joblessness figures in the other direction. campaign of the Suffolk chamber of commerce; it has gathered much momentum. I also welcome the backing of Suffolk county council, Suffolk Coastal district council, 11.16 am New Anglia local enterprise partnership and other business The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport organisations. I am sure that the Minister will write to (Mr Robert Goodwill): It is a joy to serve under your me if he cannot answer all the questions, but I ask him chairmanship, Sir Edward. I thank my hon. Friend the to listen to the concerns being put to him, because the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) for giving me issue is rousing Suffolk as we speak. an early opportunity to examine the issue and make some comments. Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): The convention of The effectiveness of the United Kingdom’s strategic the House is that if a Member wants to contribute after road network is vital to long-term economic growth, the initial speech, they must have the agreement of the providing the means to move people and freight between person who secured the debate and the Minister. I our centres of industry and population. In June, the remind the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) Government announced plans to increase the capital that we must leave adequate time for the Minister to provision for critical transport infrastructure through sum up. an unprecedented programme of road investments worth 269WH A14 (Tolling Proposals)16 OCTOBER 2013 A14 (Tolling Proposals) 270WH more than £30 billion. Last year we announced proposals the road network is, however, a well established principle. to upgrade one of the most congested sections of trunk Many of our estuarial bridge and tunnel crossings, road in England: the A14 between Huntingdon and including the Mersey tunnels, the River Severn crossings Cambridge—a section that I know well. That 25-mile and the Dartford crossing, are tolled, but the M6 toll, length of road carries up to 85,000 vehicles a day, which which opened in December 2003 to bypass a heavily is significantly more than it was ever designed to trafficked section of the M6 through Birmingham, is accommodate, and is the reason why it has become such currently the only principal road in Britain to be tolled. a frequent source of delay and frustration for motorists. Proposals to toll part of the A14 Cambridge-to-Huntingdon Heavy goods vehicles make up an unusually high proportion improvement were announced as part of the Government’s of the traffic on the road, contributing to difficult and commitment in June. stressful driving conditions for other motorists and reducing average speeds still further. However, for The Government have previously stated that, although commercial road users, congestion presents a cost to they have no intention to toll existing capacity on business efficiency, making journey times slow and Britain’s trunk road and motorway network, where unpredictable and increasing fuel consumption as vehicles investment in new infrastructure constitutes a significant are often forced to queue. I used to drive a road tanker transformation of the existing route the option to introduce and understand that problem all too well. tolls on new sections of road is seen as a means of making the capital investment more affordable. Such a The A14 between Huntingdon and Cambridge is part situation exists on the A14 between Cambridge and of a strategic road corridor, which links the midlands to Huntingdon. The proposed scheme, at £1.5 billion, the east coast ports. In addition, it accommodates long- constitutes more than a 10th of the Highways Agency’s distance movements between the north of England and entire capital budget to the end of the decade and the the south-east via the M11 motorway, as well as a transport and economic benefits of the improvement to growing volume of local and commuter traffic in what the east of England, in particular the Cambridge sub-region, has become one of Britain’s most successful economic are significant. hot spots. That mix of local and long-distance traffic is expected to get significantly worse as the economy The Government will still bear the brunt of the continues to recover, and one of the aims of the A14 capital costs associated with the scheme, but it is fair scheme is therefore to separate those making local trips that the road users who will benefit most should make a from those passing through the region. contribution to the construction costs. Although my I shall comment now on a couple of questions, so hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal discussed that I do not run out of time. My hon. Friend asked the impact of the charge on the people and businesses whether EU funding had been secured, and the answer in East Anglia, the current levels of congestion and is that it is too early in the development of the project delay on this section of road already result in a significant to be able to say yes or no. As to traffic being forced on cost to those living and working in the region. The local to other roads, it is interesting to note that the alternative authorities and the local enterprise partnership in the route via the A428 and the A1 is 30 miles, as against Cambridgeshire area are highly supportive of the scheme 18 miles on the A14. That would be an additional and have also been asked to make a contribution to its 14 miles, and anyone driving a truck doing eight or nine development. As a result, some £100 million has been miles to the gallon would—never mind the lost time—easily pledged by those bodies to offset some of the costs to be able to work out that with the level of tolls we Government of the scheme. propose it would be a no-brainer to stay on the toll road and not increase pressure on other local infrastructure. Tolling therefore makes the A14 scheme more affordable. Added to that, a shortage of residential property in An important principle underpinning the tolling strategy Cambridge is fuelling house price inflation in the region, for the A14 is that tolls, while making a meaningful but new housing developments cannot proceed without contribution towards the cost of the scheme, should not better infrastructure. The A14 scheme provides the key deter motorists from using the new road, particularly to unlock a number of major housing developments when making long-distance trips through the region. along the trunk road corridor and is critical to the plans Tariffs will therefore be kept as low as possible, with of the local authorities in the area. light vehicles being expected to pay around £1 or £1.50 at The case for improving the A14 in the area is current-day prices and heavy vehicles paying around overwhelming. Other rail freight and public transport-based double that cost. It is anticipated that tolls will be solutions have already been considered, and improvements, charged seven days a week, but that overnight trips will including the Cambridge guided busway, have already be free. That may encourage some commercial operators been made to help to take some of the load off the A14. to use the road at night when it is expected to be less Significant growth in traffic volumes on this section of busy. the A14 is forecast, however, and without improvement A second principle that remains fundamental to the problem will only worsen. The Government therefore the development of this scheme has been to channel the announced a funding commitment of £1.5 billion in right traffic on to the right roads, separating long-distance June this year to support improvements to the A14 through-traffic from local traffic. The proposed scheme between Cambridge and Huntingdon, together with a makes provision for local and commuter traffic to use challenging development programme that will see the a new side-road network between Cambridge and proposed improvement scheme complete and open to Huntingdon, which is toll-free and which eliminates traffic by the end of the decade. much of the conflict between local and strategic users. The construction and maintenance of the United Kingdom’s trunk roads and motorway network is mostly Most toll roads in Britain and throughout Europe funded by central Government. The introduction of require road users to stop at toll plazas to pay, but if we tolls to fund or part-fund major capital investments in are to eliminate congestion on this section of road, the 271WH A14 (Tolling Proposals)16 OCTOBER 2013 A14 (Tolling Proposals) 272WH

[Mr Robert Goodwill] Dr Coffey: I just want to impress upon the Minister that businesses were genuinely angry that the Highways introduction of physical barriers is not the solution. Agency refused point blank to hold a consultation The Highways Agency is therefore proposing a free-flow meeting in Suffolk. It refused the request of MPs, which tolling system, in which vehicles are identified using was not at all welcome. cameras or tag devices and payments are made electronically or by smartphone without delaying road users. I should Mr Goodwill: I asked my officials about that. The point out that we do not expect drivers to use their consultation was focused on the area where the road is smartphones while driving. The system works in a to be built because of the effect on local communities. If similar way to the London congestion charge, using anyone has had involvement in the High Speed 2 project, technology that is now well proven and collection systems they will know that it is the communities near such that have proved to be effective in practice. projects that are likely to have the strongest views. The tolling proposals for the A14 Cambridge-to- Those further afield who will benefit from the scheme Huntingdon scheme were set out in a public consultation may well feed in their views but were not given the exercise that ended last weekend, together with the opportunity to contribute through road shows. I intend, Highways Agency’s proposed scheme alignment. More however, to have regular meetings with representatives than 5,000 people attended a series of exhibitions staged of the freight and logistics industry, as I am sure they in towns and villages along the route and nearly 1,000 people will have views to voice. provided their views by completing the Highways Agency’s Finding the right highway solution, which is both online questionnaire. Discussions took place between affordable and fair, remains a priority for the Government. the Highways Agency and the various local authorities The results of the consultation exercise, when they are in the surrounding area and the consultation received a published later in the year, should provide an important high level of publicity in the press and broadcast media indication of public opinion and will help the Highways in Cambridge, Huntingdon and throughout the east of Agency as it develops the scheme proposals. It remains England. That was the first in a series of consultation clear, however, that to do nothing to improve this exercises that will take place before a development overcrowded section of our trunk road network is really consent order application is submitted by the Highways not an option and that traffic congestion in the Cambridge Agency in the autumn of 2014. Although it is a little and Huntingdon area will worsen without improvement early to comment on the results of the recently closed and will constrain economic growth in the wider east of first consultation, it is clear that aspects of the tolling England in decades to come. proposals have been high on the agenda—not least because of the activities of my hon. Friend the Member 11.26 am for Suffolk Coastal. Sitting suspended. 273WH 16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 274WH

Blacklisting Blacklisting, however, can be compared to an infectious disease—it spreads much further than the initial target. Only this morning, I heard someone who had blown the whistle. She was a care worker, and she blew the whistle [SIR ALAN MEALE in the Chair] on her place of employment, because she found the treatment of those in her care totally unacceptable. Her 2.30 pm whistleblowing brought some results, and I believe that Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair): The next speaker is that particular care home closed down—this was a few Glenda Jackson. Before you begin, Glenda, I need to years ago and is not a contemporary case, a scandal advise Members that there is a court case in progress at that we all know about. She said, categorically, that she the moment—the GMB trade union is claiming that became unemployable. That is the running theme of all 70 of its members have been denied work as a result of blacklisting allegations—that those who have been being named on a list of construction workers drawn up blacklisted are deemed by someone in authority to be, by an organisation. in essence, troublemakers; it is a little like David and Goliath. They would be dangerous to employ, because The matter is sub judice, and Members should be they might cause any commercial project some kind of aware of the rules of the House on such issues: I will egregious, usually financial, damage. Nine times out not permit any direct reference to that particular case. of 10, however, such people are actually attempting to The Member in charge of the debate has written separately, ensure greater safety in their work areas. with the advice of the Principal Clerk of the Table Office. I hesitate to cause difficulty for the debate, but Looking back at my previous work experience, I see I will not allow direct reference to that particular case. that the creative people named by Senator McCarthy were not the only ones affected; their creative lives were Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): cut off at the knees, but, in addition, the benefits of Thank you, Sir Alan; it is a pleasure to work under your their creative work were no longer available to the wider chairmanship. I am one of the few Members to have community. That is why blacklisting is like a particularly absolutely no legal training whatever, so the possibility infectious disease, which can spread far wider than only of my uttering anything that could be deemed to be sub among those who know themselves to have been blacklisted judice is fairly remote. I do wish, however, that I had in those industries or professions in which we know that selected a rather less bland title for this afternoon’s blacklisting has existed, or possibly still exists. That is debate, because we are looking not so much at the why I pay tribute to everyone inside and outside the practice of blacklisting, but at the illegality and abhorrence House who has brought the issue forward. of blacklisting. In common with many of my colleagues over the Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): My hon. years, I have had constituents at advice surgeries alleging Friend is making a powerful point. Last year, with the that they have lost their jobs, or had their career prospects help of the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and blighted, because of blacklisting. At one time, it was Technicians, I tabled an early-day motion on this important extremely difficult to prove such allegations. In light of issue. Does she agree not only that the practice is a your introductory remarks, Sir Alan, I hasten to add disgrace and a stain on the country, but that the people that my constituents were not laying the allegations at who were blacklisted are the very ones who should have the door of the construction industry. In my memory, been praised for what they were doing to assist fellow blacklisting could go throughout the employment world, workers? The companies that indulged in such dark but it was extremely difficult to prove any allegations. practices should be held accountable and made to pay Silly me, I thought that when the regulations under the for ruining the lives of many thousands of construction Employment Relations Act 1999 making blacklisting workers. illegal came into effect in 2010, such visits from constituents would end. Glenda Jackson: I strongly concur. The stain of being One must, nevertheless, pay tribute to all those who, blacklisted and accused of being in some way not inside and outside the House, worked to bring about committed, whether to the job, the company or the what we thought would be safeguards under the 1999 venture, can even spread to members of an individual’s Act. I also pay tribute to those who—again, inside and family. I have heard stories of small children being outside the House—have consistently, and certainly for called names by their contemporaries, because their more than a year, raised the issue of allegations of mother or father had been deemed to be working against blacklisting through debates, early-day motions and the industry or profession. questions to Ministers. Most recently, some of those I endorse what my hon. Friend said, but we should against whom the allegations have been most cogently now be pushing, most markedly, for the Government to presented have indicated some kind of acceptance—I institute a full inquiry into such practices, as previously would not go so far as to say “apology”—that something requested. We thought that we were safe, that blacklisting untoward had been going on. was illegal—it is there in an Act of Parliament—but In my previous work, many of my colleagues—most now, given reports in this country’s major newspapers markedly in the United States of America, and rather and hon. Members’ questions and early-day motions, less in the United Kingdom—suffered egregiously from the problem clearly needs to be re-examined. someone we could call the godfather of blacklisting, the nefarious Senator McCarthy. His reasons for condemning Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): On people as scaremongers and a danger to the body that important point of having an inquiry, one of the politic and the life of all democratic societies were most terrible and serious things about blacklisting is overtly political. that people do not know whether they are on a blacklist. 275WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 276WH

[Natascha Engel] society suffered desperately because of fear during the McCarthy era, when entirely innocent people, as has Without an inquiry, which has been called for by unions been the case in this country, were victimised because such as UCATT and the GMB, some people will never others were afraid to speak out against what was happening. know that they are on a blacklist. That is why I support As we all know, it was only when Senator McCarthy my hon. Friend’s call. I would love it if she could took the fatal final step of trying to bring down the develop that point a little more. army that the President of the day stepped in and said in no small way, “This has to stop.” Glenda Jackson: My hon. Friend has developed the The damage was fundamental and we do not want point very well indeed—she needs no help from me. As that infectious disease to take root again in this country. she so rightly says, and going back to my analogy with We would delude ourselves if we thought it had not an infectious disease, people might not even know that existed here. We would not have had to fight so hard to they are suffering from such a disease. Only when we change the Employment Bill if that had not been the have a thoroughgoing inquiry, with all the evidence, and case. Blacklisting must never, ever be allowed to flourish when the symptoms are brought into what we are told is again in this country. I pay tribute to those in the the only effective disinfectant, sunlight—the light of Chamber today, those on the broader parliamentary day—can we begin to establish whether the work that estate, the trade unions and those employees—or, rather, has taken place in the past, on ensuring health and those unemployed people—who were not prepared to safety at work, for example, has gone astray. stand idly by, but were prepared to take the brickbats, insults and allegations that it was all fantasy, and who Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I commend my fought their corner. hon. Friend on how she is opening the debate. I want to I am on the record as saying that if an hon. Member put on the record the fact that I am a member of both cannot say what they want to say in 10 minutes, they the GMB and UCATT. I do so not because I am should not stand up, so I will now throw the floor open required to declare that as an interest, but because I am to eager colleagues. damn proud of it. On looking forward, will my hon. Friend join me in 2.43 pm commending the vocal way in which the Welsh Government Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): I am grateful Minister, Jane Hutt, has made it clear that there will be to you, Sir Alan, for the opportunity to speak in this no place in public procurement for companies who use debate, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Hampstead blacklisting? She is devising policy and guidance for and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) on securing it and on her such companies to ensure that that is crystal clear and wonderfully impassioned speech. I will speak for only explicit. 10 minutes because, as she said, if hon. Members cannot say what they want to say in 10 minutes, they should not Glenda Jackson: Being partly Welsh, I always find it stand up. I shall try to learn from her vast experience. easy to commend the Welsh on practically anything. Blacklisting is completely wrong. Not only does it That example should be taken on board by other authorities destroy individuals, their confidence and their personality to ensure that the best of all possible disinfectants— and who they are, it destroys their family and prevents sunlight—is brought to bear on this egregious illegality. them from earning, working, contributing to society Let us not forget what we are talking about. Blacklisting and being part of a wider whole. It is wrong for a is illegal. variety of reasons, and I could wax lyrical on that. I know from my upbringing in Liverpool that blacklisting Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): My hon. Friend is a terrible disease, as the hon. Lady said, and must not is making an excellent and powerful speech. On an be allowed to take root. It is illegal and should not be earlier point about McCarthyism, Sam Wanamaker was allowed in this country. I am proud that, as the hon. a victim. He came to Britain, and founded the Globe Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) said, this theatre and so on. It is to this country’s credit that we country has always been good at welcoming people who would not tolerate McCarthyism and we gave employment have been blacklisted in other countries. I want to put it to people who were blacklisted in their own country. He clearly on the record that blacklisting is completely could have made an enormous contribution to America, wrong. but fortunately he came to us. I shall focus my comments on the construction industry, but I will not refer to the case going through the courts Glenda Jackson: I entirely agree with what my hon. at the moment, Sir Alan, as you asked us not to. There Friend said. Sam Wanamaker worked extremely hard are 3,213 victims of blacklisting, and we are well aware and was absolutely fundamental in ensuring that we that around 2,500 people on that database do not know now have one of the most critically and dramatically that they are on it. Will the Minister impress on the acclaimed theatres in the world—the Globe. He was Information Commissioner the need to contact them essential in creating for a whole generation that had not directly to make them aware of that? thought it would find anything interesting in Shakespeare the extraordinary illumination of what it is to be a John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I found out that I was human being that only Shakespeare and his plays bring on the Economic League blacklist during the 1980s to bear. only when Ciba-Geigy Chemicals gave me a job but I agree entirely with my hon. Friend and pay tribute then withdrew it for no good reason. The list was to what Sam Wanamaker did, but in no way was there published at an event at the university of London, and equal treatment. America was denied what Sam could I found my name on it. How can there be any decency in have done. He was not alone in being blacklisted. Wider society if people are on a blacklist, particularly if they 277WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 278WH have not found work? I was lucky because I was in work Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): and kept work, but some people lose work or do not get The hon. Gentleman will recall that the old Economic it without knowing why because someone, for whatever League was funded by the Conservative party. reason, decided to put them on a list? Stephen McPartland: I do not recall that, but the hon. Stephen McPartland: The hon. Gentleman always Gentleman might not be aware that I was the first makes powerful and impassioned points, and I agree Conservative Member of Parliament in history to write with him. There can be no justice in society if people are for the Morning Star newspaper. I am often asked on a blacklist without knowing. I urge the Minister to whether I am on the left or right of the Conservative ask the Information Commissioner to contact those party. For me, the reality is about focusing on what is in 2,500 people who do not know that they are on a front of me, and in this case, it is a database that was blacklist and make them aware that they are. completely wrong. Those individuals require justice, I am not a member of any union, but with, I hope, and I am happy to be working with the hon. Member the support of the GMB union and the hon. Member for Luton North on that. for Luton North, we will launch a cross-party campaign to contact the 44 construction companies that were Natascha Engel: I am sorry to press this point, but it involved in that blacklisting database, the idea being to is very important: the database can only be exposed if ask them to apologise and to provide compensation. there is a public inquiry. The public inquiry on Leveson What we would ultimately like is for no one in the exposed the extent of phone hacking, so I think this is a Government or local government to provide them with good example of why we should have a public inquiry, any public sector contracts or money until they have to make sure that every name on the database is exposed taken those actions. and that the individuals are told.

Steve Rotheram: The hon. Gentleman is making really Stephen McPartland: As I said, I want the Information important points. There seems to be cross-party consensus Commissioner’s Office to contact all the individuals on on trying to contact everyone on the list, many of the database who do not know that they have been whom do not know they are on it. Would he support a blacklisted. It is up to the Minister to respond on call by UCATT and other unions for a public inquiry whether there will be a public inquiry. I have made my into the scandal? position clear: I am reserving judgment, simply because I want to focus on getting justice for the individuals Stephen McPartland: I often agree with the hon. who have been blacklisted. I believe, like the hon. Member Gentleman, but I reserve judgment on a public inquiry. for Hampstead and Kilburn, that although we are We have had the result of the Leveson inquiry and no focusing on the construction industry, the reality is that one is sure what the outcome is, and I am keen to get blacklisting has no doubt gone across lots of other justice for the 3,213 individuals on the blacklist. sectors, and there is probably a range of other databases that none of us is aware of. I shall focus on this specific Kelvin Hopkins: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman issue, and if there is a public inquiry into the wider on his speech. I am pleased to be working with him on aspects of blacklisting, so be it, but at the end of the the GMB campaign. He mentioned the possibility of day, we need evidence to be able to create that inquiry. compensation and apologies. Does he agree that what As I only have a minute left, I will not take any more we really want is those people to be back working in the interventions, as I want to finish within the 10 minutes. industry? I sum up by saying that I believe blacklisting is wrong. It destroys families and has a pervasive effect on Stephen McPartland: I completely agree, and that is British society and the values that we all hold dear. It why it is important that the Information Commissioner should not be a political issue; the focus should on contacts the 2,500 people who do not know that they providing justice, so I am happy to work with the GMB are blacklisted to make them aware of that, so that union and the hon. Member for Luton North to do so. they can get on with their lives. At the moment, those 2,500 people cannot get a job and do not know why. I do not want to stray too far into that area, so I will talk Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair): Before we proceed, I about the campaign. remind Members not to link into the case that is taking place for the GMB and its 70 members. That is sub We know that 44 companies are involved, but they judice, and we should not debate it. are not all involved in the court case. The hon. Member for Luton North and I, supported by the GMB, will Twelve Members have indicated that they want to publish a website and write to the chief executives of speak, and there is about an hour to go; I would be construction companies asking them to come clean. We grateful if Members worked it out together, so that will publish the letters and the replies, and will then everyone gets the opportunity. contact the larger shareholders to identify whether they believe that it is ethical to invest in those companies. The campaign will be long-running and is designed to 2.52 pm provide justice for people who are currently blacklisted. Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) I genuinely believe that blacklisting is not about (Lab): I will be brief, as you have requested, Sir Alan. I politics, or about one party or another. It is completely shall concentrate on one exceedingly serious aspect that wrong; it is a disease; and it should be excluded. I know has recently come to light: the allegation of police some Labour Members question it, but at the moment, involvement in the provision of this information. It comes there is cross-party consensus. from the Independent Police Complaints Commission’s 279WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 280WH

[Mr Michael Meacher] denial, but it contradicts the fact that the Blacklist Support Group has now had it confirmed that a secret revelation that a Scotland Yard inquiry into police collusion meeting took place in November 2008 between the has found that it is—I quote the words that were used Consulting Association, which ran the blacklist, and this weekend— officers from the police national extremism tactical “likely that all special branches were involved in providing information” co-ordination unit, which runs undercover policing. that led to hundreds of workers being excluded from I have one more point to make. Significantly, this new employment. If that is true, it is dynamite. and damning information comes from a freedom of Let us put that into perspective. It has been known information request to the Information Commissioner’s for four years that more than 3,200 workers, in the Office, which replied that it was holding notes about period from 1993 to 2009, were blacklisted by up to that meeting. That rather invites the question why it has 44 construction companies. Many of the companies been sitting on this information for four years and only were household names, such as Balfour Beatty, McAlpine, had it revealed when it was extracted from the ICO by Carillion and Costain, and people were consequently the freedom of information procedure. It also raises the kept out of work, not only for years, but in some cases further question, which has already come up in this for decades. Across the nation, we have come to a view debate, why the ICO has so far declined to inform all that phone hacking is a very serious intrusion into 3,213 workers that they were subject to the blacklist. privacy and a massive breach of human rights. However, Who took the decision that they would only respond to I put it to the Chamber—I am sure that there would be requests to the ICO? That is a very important question. widespread agreement across the country—that it does This is not a matter for the ICO; it is a political not compare with being deprived of a job for years, or question. Who is told about this massive breach of their even decades on end. rights is a question for Ministers. It is known from statements made by the Information Jim Sheridan: Like my right hon. Friend, I have been Commissioner’s Office to the Select Committee on Scottish in many marches and protests, promoting and trying Affairs, which my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow to defend the rights of workers. He will recall police South West (Mr Davidson) chairs, that some information officers on roofs with cameras taking pictures of people revealed on files on blacklisted workers, again, could on marches. I often wonder where those photographs only have come from the police or security service ended up. sources—those were the words used by the officer from the ICO. The firm belief of the IPCC, based on discussions with the Metropolitan Police—an irrefutable source, I Mr Meacher: That is another very good question. I think—is that all special branches were engaged in these cannot give my hon. Friend the answer, but I see the illegal and highly damaging activities. If that is proven—I force of his question, and I think it should be pursued. come back to the need for a public inquiry—it will expose a monumental scandal. To be fair, it is disputed John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): This at present. is a valid point. The Blacklist Support Group discovered that the information passed on to the files goes beyond John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): I am grateful just workplace activities to demonstrations and all the to my right hon. Friend. He mentioned phone hacking; rest, and that could only have come from the police or would he acknowledge that phone hacking is a criminal security services. offence? It would make an enormous difference if blacklisting was a criminal offence. That was called for Mr Meacher: That is absolutely correct. As my hon. by UCATT and the other trade unions. Unfortunately, Friends suggest, this is not necessarily about the passage it was not in the regulations that were issued in 2010. I of information; it could involve photographs, often am not disputing the Labour Government’s intentions taken covertly. then, as I think they were perfectly good, but the I think that I am right in saying that only some 800 of problem was that the regulations did not go far enough the 3,200 people have been informed, as a result of and were therefore not effective. making an application themselves. Three quarters of all those people still have no idea what ruined their livelihood Mr Meacher: I entirely accept that important for so many years. I would like the Minister to respond distinction—what is or is not the law at the time—but I to this question: why should the Government not instruct think that the judgment that the nation would make the ICO to inform all the other three quarters that they about the enormity of the offence and the consequences were blacklisted? rather override that. It is not that those people were My final point relates to where the issue is leading. breaking the law, but that they were acting in a way that The 44 construction companies now face a High Court they knew would be intensely destructive to the livelihood battle about their alleged involvement in blacklisting. I of thousands of people, and that, in itself, is a matter will not pursue that point. However, significantly, eight for which they should be held to account. of them have now decided to compensate some of the What has been said is disputed by a senior investigating 3,200 workers, which might suggest that they believe officer recently appointed to Operation Herne, which is that the evidence being revealed is now sufficient to the inquiry being undertaken into the activities of prove their involvement— undercover police officers. He says that he has seen “no conclusive evidence” that Scotland Yard exchanged Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair): Order. I am in a dilemma information with the blacklisting companies. That needs here. The sub judice rule applies because the case is still to be investigated further. However, it is difficult to ongoing, so the right hon. Gentleman cannot refer to it. deny, and in my view, not only is that a rather unconvincing As I understand it, the companies have not yet accepted 281WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 282WH liability, even though they have agreed to pay some being blacklisted. I am sure that he will not mind me compensation; they are figuring out the amounts. They saying that, in a conversation this morning, he told me have not accepted liability, so the issue remains sub that the only way his wife ever got a job—not him, but judice. Do not refer to the case, if possible. his wife—was to use her maiden name; the blacklisting spread past the individual to influence the family. Mr Meacher: I take your point entirely, Sir Alan. I was not intending to pursue the issue in that way. I am Steve Rotheram: My hon. Friend is making a powerful prepared to come to an end. I have made the point, point. The current blacklist from the 1990s is a slightly which I think is a strong one, and I hope that the separate issue from blacklisting in general. Blacklisting Minister will respond to it. The ICO has a role to play. has gone on for many decades, certainly in the construction I can think of at least 10 grounds for a public inquiry, industry. He will be aware of another person who was which I do not have time to go into. An inquiry is put on the blacklist—a member of the Shrewsbury crucial. Will the Government commit to a full public 24—Ricky Tomlinson, who is now fighting a campaign inquiry? to clear his name. He was denied the opportunity to make a livelihood for many years. 3.1 pm I do not think that many people fully understand the Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): It is a individual impact of being blacklisted. Those 3,200 people pleasure to have helped, with 20 colleagues across the —not just the ones who know—have struggled for House, to secure today’s debate, and to have been many years not only to clear their names but to earn a involved with trade unions, including my own, Unite, living. Does he agree that is the main reason why we are with Tony Tinley helping out; the Union of Construction, pushing the issue with the Government? Allied Trades and Technicians, with Cheryl Pidgeon researching this debate; and the union that I used to Mr Allen: I know that not everyone wants to make a work for before coming to this place, the GMB. If the speech: some colleagues may wish to make interventions hon. Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) is instead. I will gladly take those interventions so that not yet in a trade union, I could put a number of offers people can get their views on the record. My hon. Friend’s to him to put that right. He should be careful; being view is one that I strongly agree with. anti-badger culling and pro-exposing blacklisting, he Another colleague of ours, my hon. Friend the Member could be highly sought after, in these days of coalition, for Dundee West (Jim McGovern), mentioned the story after the next general election. of a disabled war veteran who had one leg and one eye. It is also a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the He found himself on the blacklist. Why? Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson). “Because he sent a letter to the local press commending them I hope to be a supporting actor in what we have to do for awarding Nelson Mandela the freedom of the city.”—[Official today. Blacklisting is, as my hon. Friend said, a disease. Report, 23 January 2013; Vol. 557, c. 337.] It is pernicious, and it spreads without people even The problem with this intelligence-based stuff is that it knowing that it is there. It is vital, from the point of is not verifiable or in the public domain. Things can be view of any civil or human rights stance that any party said about someone, often trivially, that get them on the wishes to have, that we ensure that its days are definitely list, resulting in all sorts of consequences that they numbered. cannot challenge. What is blacklisting? It is the termination of workers’ The Economic League gave way to the Consulting employment for issues not related to performance. Such Association, which purchased the list from the league. It issues can, and have, included raising legitimate health sounds a little bit like one of those building companies and safety concerns; being a member of a trade union; that go bust and then suddenly rise again the next day and belonging to a political party whose ideals employers with a different name. That is the blacklist that we have do not share. For those subject to the practice, as we mainly been talking about today—the 3,200 individuals— have heard, the consequences can be incredibly devastating which has been used by 40 contractors. It is not the —discrimination, unemployment, poverty, family street-corner jobbing company that uses the list, but breakdown, mental breakdown and, in some extreme some of the biggest companies, whose names my right cases, even suicide. hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton The phenomenon is not new; it is not something of (Mr Meacher) put on the record, and many others too. the past 20 or 30 years, or something, as my hon. Friend Looking out of the window at the construction going said, that concerns only the construction industry. It on around us, we will see their names. goes back a long way—way back to the beginning of The revelations also highlighted the inadequacy of the old Economic League in 1919. The league created a legal protections. Since 1999, legislation has given UK list of people whom it—not the courts of law or Parliament Governments the power to pass regulations against — regarded as subversive. Many individuals were listed blacklisting, but all of us have singularly failed to push and blighted. Government to do what they should have. Only a year My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), before the blacklisting was uncovered, UCATT, as we who has had to leave the Chamber, said in his speech to heard earlier, began lobbying the Government to pass the House on 23 January 2013 that the Economic acceptable regulations, only to be told, “There is no League’s blacklist was used to create difficulties—he need for them. It is all under control. There isn’t really a gave his own example—in getting work once someone serious problem.” was on that list. Another colleague of ours in this House In 1992, the TUC complained to the United Nations’ who has had first-hand experience of blacklisting is my International Labour Organisation. What a shaming hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton). thing that is for our country, that we were reported He has already gone on record about his experiences of alongside sweatshops in the far east to the ILO for 283WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 284WH

[Mr Allen] John Cryer: My hon. Friend mentions Keith Ewing, and it is his report “Ruined Lives”, which was commissioned having no effective protection for workers in our country by UCATT, that has been responsible for much of the against being put on a blacklist, which blights the lives attention, including the press coverage, that has been of workers and their families. The ILO’s Committee on given to blacklisting over the past three or four years. Freedom of Association upheld the complaint, saying that UK law fell short of article 98 of the ILO convention. Mr Allen: My hon. Friend has been assiduous in Again, Governments failed to act. investigating this issue, and I bow to his knowledge of To bring the issue right up to date, in March 2012, it. He is absolutely right about Professor Ewing’s work. The Observer published an article claiming that the Professor Ewing has written that there is no automatic police and/or security services had supplied information compensation for being blacklisted and there are no to the blacklist to be used by the nation’s major construction criminal penalties for blacklisting. Protection from firms, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham blacklisting applies only to trade union activities, which West and Royton said. That was reinforced when the we might think is reasonable. However, given the way Information Commissioner’s Office revealed that the the law works, that protection does not apply to trade records could have come only from the police or MI5— union-related activities—work that one out. That means not from a Member of the House or from someone the courts will decide whether unofficial action is caught. making a political point. A vast database on more than On 30 October 2012, UCATT exposed the activities 3,000 victims, whom somebody else deemed troublesome, of two leading blacklisting firms—Sir Robert McAlpine was being fed by the security services. David Clancy, and Skanska—while giving evidence to the Scottish investigations officer at the Information Commissioner’s Affairs Committee. Both companies were undertaking Office, stated in The Observer: high-profile projects, including motorway construction “the information was so specific and it contained in effect operational and work at the Olympics, while they were blacklisting information that wouldn’t have formed anything other than a workers. Giving evidence, UCATT’s general secretary, police record.” Steve Murphy, revealed how, in the Consulting Association’s We have to do something about this: the job is not done. final year of operation, Skanska had paid more than £28,000 for blacklisting checks, while Sir Robert McAlpine As hon. Friends have said, some protection against had paid £26,000. Skanska admitted it was using the blacklisting was introduced in the Employment Relations Consulting Association to vet workers and supplying Act 1999, although unions warned at the time that it information to the list, yet it escaped without penalty or was wholly inadequate. However, the raid by the sanction. Information Commissioner’s Office triggered a new regulation, which led to Ian Kerr, the chief executive of The steps taken in Wales show how we can do something the Consulting Association, being fined £5,000—not on this issue. The Assembly and the First Minister have exactly a king’s ransom—for breaking data protection made great efforts to move it forward. New procurement laws. That is the price we put on the destruction of the guidance issued to all Welsh public bodies has outlined lives of individuals and their families, for causes unknown the steps that can be taken through procurement to help to them, by this individual and his pals at the Consulting end blacklisting and encourage redress and compensation Association. However, Ian Kerr could not be punished for victims. It makes it clear that companies proved to for blacklisting employees, because it was not illegal to be involved in blacklisting can be excluded from bidding do so. for contracts. It also sets out the steps companies need to take to avoid being excluded, such as offering proper As many colleagues have made clear, there is still no redress for victims and introducing personnel and positive right not to be blacklisted. Additionally, the organisational measures to ensure that blacklisting no burden of proof is placed on workers who suspect they longer takes place. have fallen foul of this odious practice. It is unreasonable to expect workers to prove in law what is, by its very Huw Irranca-Davies: My hon. Friend makes some nature, a covert practice. How on earth do they know it very salient points. Does he accept, as many unions is going on? How, then, can they prove beyond reasonable have argued, that the argument that procurement contracts doubt that it is happening? That is unreasonable. cannot take account of blacklisting activities is a fallacy? The Scottish Affairs Committee’s inquiry into blacklisting In fact, there is a risk of litigation should we choose not pointed out that blacklisters do apologise and do seem to take account of blacklisting and award contracts to to be sorry, but only when they are caught, and only companies involved in it. That is why I think the Welsh when it is revealed, in the light of the public gaze, that Government are showing the way forward. they have transgressed. My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) has pointed out that claims Mr Allen: The Assembly in Wales is less dominated against blacklisting can be brought only through an by the Executive than we are in this place, but, even so, employment tribunal or a county court, which can we should draw comfort from the fact that legislators cause problems. For example, claims can be presented can make a difference and take these things forward. at a tribunal only within three months of the offence If Wales can set an example, I very much hope that taking place, but it is often difficult, even years later, to England can follow suit. find proof that an offence has taken place. I ask the Minister and her shadow to make it clear The professor of public law at King’s college, Keith that there should be a positive right not to be blacklisted Ewing, has been in touch with my office. He noted that and that workers who find themselves on blacklists there is still a tremendous gap in the new legislation should have an automatic right to compensation, without that was put in place after the raid on the Consulting the burden of proof being placed on them. The retroactive Association. compensation scheme that has been mentioned should 285WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 286WH also be established to compensate blacklisted workers. Unbelievably, in this country there are secret files Furthermore, protection should be extended clearly to held on thousands of workers in the construction sector, include trade union-related activities, as well as just with the result that those people are denied employment. trade union activities. Above all, blacklisting should be That secret construction blacklist was used by more a criminal offence, and companies that use blacklists than 40 of the UK’s largest construction firms, and should be open to persecution. some construction firms confirmed that they had conducted I will skip over the issues you warned us about, blacklisting checks even on people seeking work at Sir Alan; perhaps we will come back to them on another Olympic venues. It is unacceptable that public money occasion. Suffice it to say that the scheme the industry is was used on projects where such checks were carried creating involves only eight of the 44 major construction out. It would seem that there was even blacklisting for firms that have been implicated in blacklisting. That is the construction of Portcullis House. How many people not good enough, and I hope the Minister will take up and Members of Parliament knew that at the time? the suggestion that all those who have been on a blacklist The majority of the people who were blacklisted still should be written to and that all those who have blacklisted have no idea that they were included in the secret others should be written to and clearly asked to join the construction blacklists uncovered by the Information scheme. I doubt this will be the last debate on blacklisting, Commissioner’s Office in a raid in 2009. It is vital that but the day grows closer when those who have blacklisted the ICO should make every effort to inform every others and those who have been on blacklists will get individual victim of blacklisting, so that they can seek the justice they deserve. compensation. However, questions still remain to be put to the ICO, including why its officials did not seize a huge volume of other documents found at the scene of 3.19 pm the original 2009 raid. As a former member of the Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It is a pleasure Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, I recall that evidence to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan. I congratulate that it took included serious allegations about the origin my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn of the intelligence used to compile the blacklists. (Glenda Jackson) on securing this important debate. We need further tightening and extension of the civil Frankly, it is shocking that we are having a debate in regime against blacklisting set up by Labour in 2010. 2013 condemning the continuing practice of blacklisting. Blacklisting should be a criminal offence. Recent revelations It is simply a disgrace that blacklisting is still going on have demonstrated that sanctions do not go far enough in 21st century Britain. We might have been aware, perhaps, to protect workers. The Government cannot sit on the from rumour or experience in our own employment, fence any longer. Blacklisting must be made a criminal that blacklisting existed. We might have had evidence: offence punishable by imprisonment and/or an unlimited managers leaving notes about employees for other managers, fine. The Government should ensure that no one is and even human resources services that operated a excluded from seeking redress because there is no direct two-file system—one accessible and the other for their employment relationship between the worker and the eyes only—so it is not surprising to learn that blacklisting company who used blacklisting. They must also ensure is practised by some large, well-known companies. that anyone found to be blacklisted in future has adequate Blacklisting affects people’s livelihoods, security and support to bring a civil claim and that non-trade union well-being. It is a nasty, underhand and vicious practice. members enjoy equal protections. The most extreme example of blacklisting to have been In additional evidence submitted as part of the Scottish made public is one that we can all recall, from the Affairs Committee’s inquiry into blacklisting, there was United States. I am of course speaking of the McCarthy confirmation of the existence of a separate blacklist on era, which we have already heard mentioned—one of environmental activists—also operated by the Consulting the most destructive, harmful and insidious episodes in Association. That separate list was said to include as that country’s history. Talented people fled the United many as 200 environmental activists. The Government States during the McCarthy witch hunts, to places such should fully investigate that as well. as Britain, where they must have thought that blacklisting did not exist, or at least not at the level that they had Given the hugely detrimental impact on those affected experienced. by blacklisting, we welcome the current proceedings to Blacklists have a history of being built on rumour, seek compensation from firms that have used the Consulting inaccuracies and downright fabrication, and that still Association lists. I welcome the fact that the ICO has applies to the way they are compiled today. As many as taken steps to work alongside trade unions by sending a 44 companies in the UK subscribed to the so-called list of names and dates of births to four trade unions—the Consulting Association, the successor of the Economic Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians, League—none of them questioning or caring how the Unite, GMB and the National Union of Rail, Maritime lists were compiled. We need to take blacklisting extremely and Transport Workers—so that they can check the names seriously, and I call on the Government to take decisive of blacklisted individuals against their membership lists. action to stop the blacklisting of workers and to prevent I know that other Members want to speak, so I shall the blacklisting scandal from ever being repeated. conclude by saying that blacklisting is a national disgrace. A full investigation of blacklisting allegations is essential, It ruins lives and devastates families. It is crucial that and it should include the allegations of blacklisting in the Government should fully investigate blacklisting major public projects. Blacklisting is a national scandal. and prevent that cruel practice from ever happening again. People’s livelihoods were destroyed, their reputations were tarnished and, in some cases, their families were 3.25 pm torn apart, just because, for example, they raised health Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): and safety concerns or were an active member of a I shall be brief, as we want to hear the Front-Bench trade union. spokesmen. 287WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 288WH

[Jim Sheridan] I sincerely hope that the Minister heard today that there is clear evidence of blacklisting. We now need to It is somewhat ironic that on the same day that we are know what the Government intend to do about it. I do debating blacklisting in Westminster Hall, zero hours not want to hear any more warm words, even from our contracts are being debated in the House. That gives previous Labour Government. I have been to far too some indication of the progress that workers have made many funerals of people who have died from mesothelioma over the years. People are kept out of work by blacklisting, and other industrial diseases. We now need to ensure and even when they get some work their wages are cut that blacklisting stops, that it stops now and that people as much as possible. That is progress for you, in the get compensation, and, more importantly, ensure that modern United Kingdom. the companies are exposed and not given Government Perhaps I can reflect on my own experience of contracts, on which they depend. blacklisting. As a young man, I never realised what it 3.30 pm was. I did not really get involved in trade unions, either, but my family was involved. It was only because of that Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): that I was blacklisted for three years—unemployed with I am possibly the only Member here who has had access a young family. It was very difficult to get benefits; it to all the Consulting Association files and records. I was difficult to exist. had that access, on condition of confidentiality, in my capacity as Chair of the Select Committee on Scottish I went for an interview as a porter at Erskine hospital—in Affairs. I am glad that the coming out of the minutes Erskine, which is in my constituency. The matron told has focused people’s attention on activities such as the me, “No problem, Jim. You’ve got the job, but we’ll involvement of the police. send you official notice in the post in the next couple of There are two sides: one looking backwards and one days.” I did get something in the next couple of days, looking forwards. Looking backwards, first, we need to telling me, “Unfortunately, Mr Sheridan, you have been be absolutely clear that there is a role for Government unsuccessful on this occasion.” I still did not know that in ensuring that those on whom cards and information I was on the blacklist, but some time later I met the are held are identified. I refer Members to the matron and she told me that I had got the job, but that a correspondence that the Scottish Affairs Committee name check had been done with the Economic League, recently had from the Information Commissioner’s Office and it showed that my family were involved in trade about the difficulty it is experiencing in taking matters union activities, which meant I could not have it. That is forward. the kind of thing that we are talking about today. Secondly, we want an apology from the firms involved. That experience is what brought me into politics—to Thirdly, we want compensation. Fourthly, we want to change that kind of thing. That is why we need people know all the firms involved, not just a few. I welcome from a working-class background in this place, because the apology from some of the firms involved, but we they understand what people go through and what it must recognise: first, that that does not include all the means to be told, “You are inadequate; you are a danger; firms who participated in blacklisting; secondly, that you are a threat from within”. It was Mrs Thatcher who the negotiations and settlement will be exceedingly complex; used to call us the enemy within. Those things brought and, thirdly, that a solution cannot be imposed unilaterally me into politics, and they are why I stay in politics. by the companies, but must be the subject of negotiation My other passion is for health and safety in the with the unions involved and those representing people workplace. I chair the all-party group on occupational who have been blacklisted. There must a negotiated safety and health and I come into contact with many settlement, rather than imposition. members of the public. The issues include such things Looking forwards, we now recognise that there must as asbestos-related mesothelioma. I recall, in the shipyards be legal changes. It has been conceded that there was in Glasgow, seeing the white flakes of asbestos dust blacklisting on Crossrail, and yet the law on blacklisting falling through the sunlight. It was a Tuesday afternoon was not broken. That leaves us in the position where and sunny in Glasgow, and that is how I remember it. something clearly must be done. I hope the Minister I could see the flakes floating through, and said to the accepts that and takes the matter forward. We must find gaffer, or supervisor, “That’s asbestos, and we’re swallowing a way to ensure that when a new construction site is it.” “Don’t be silly, son,” he told me. “Nothing wrong established and a work force taken on, there is a review with it. It won’t do you any harm. Just go home. A pint after the event to identify whether there is evidence of of Guinness will wash it all away.” That was the kind of blacklisting. We need wider acceptance that companies ignorance and arrogance that was around in those days. that have not apologised or compensated can be and If anyone dared ever question the employer about safety should be kept off public and private sector contract statistics or safety measures, they were dealt with. The shortlists. There must be a code of conduct for firms only way they could deal with me—they could not sack when dealing with employees in these matters. me, because my father was a yard convener—was by My final point looks further forwards to the question discriminating against me by not offering me overtime of an inquiry. I hope that the actions that we in the or jobs that were going around. Scottish Affairs Committee identified and I have commented on today do not have to wait until a full public I am reminded that I sent a letter earlier this year to inquiry. The nature of public inquiries is that they look the Minister with responsibility for employment relations backwards and take years. Many of the people involved and consumer affairs—the very good Minister present are now elderly and, in my view, require compensation. today—who replied that Those who are not elderly require assistance in getting “there has been a lot of accusations, but we have not yet received back into the industry, so that they can have adequate any evidence” compensation and employment for the working time about blacklisting. they have left. We need further inquiries into the role of 289WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 290WH the police and state security services. The Government Association in 2009 and half of the 20 largest construction have not been unhelpful in pursuing some of the issues, companies and all their subsidiaries in this country but, as they would expect, I do not believe that they were involved. For £2.20—not 30 pieces of silver, but have been helpful enough. £2.20—a construction worker’s livelihood and chance of securing employment could be dashed by the company 3.34 pm if they were on the blacklist. Many construction companies are trying to claim ignorance of the practice, but given Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): It is a pleasure to the amounts of money involved—in a three-year period serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan. I particularly alone, companies paid the Consulting Association £500,000 thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and for blacklist checks—it is inconceivable that senior Kilburn (Glenda Jackson), who put forward her argument management were not aware of it and its endemic nature. with her usual high levels of eloquence and passion. I share a birthday with my hon. Friend; I only wish she The House is united in its shock and condemnation would share some of her skills and talents with me. of blacklisting. I hope that it is equally united in its I also want to thank all right hon. and hon. Members determination to ensure that the practice is never allowed who contributed in this important debate. They did so to happen again. There are practical steps, and we heard with genuine and heartfelt concern and shock that the some of them this afternoon, that can be put in place to secretive and insidious practice of blacklisting has been ensure that the practice is ended for good and that those ongoing, and will still be ongoing, in modern Britain. workers unfairly affected are provided with justice. More widely, the manner in which this important issue It is important that we know the full extent of blacklisting. has been raised and campaigned on has been positive That comment has been made many times and I fully and welcome. I particularly pay tribute to Select Committee agree. I have focused, as have other hon. Members, on on Scottish Affairs and the unions—the Union of the construction industry, but does it really happen only Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians, the GMB, in construction? Given the endemic nature of the practice, of which I am a proud member, and Unite—for their it is probably implausible that it is confined solely to tireless and professional work in exposing the shady, that industry. How does bogus self-employment in the scandalous and disgraceful practices. construction industry impact on blacklisting? We can There are many things to be proud of in the UK only know those answers and get evidence if we have a construction industry, but blacklisting is not one of full inquiry into the practice. them. It shames the country and undermines the reputation Will the Minister pledge to put in place a full and of the industry. Today demonstrates that the House is thorough investigation of the disgraceful practice? If fully united in its complete condemnation of such a not, why not? The shadow Business Secretary, my hon. practice, which, as we heard several times this afternoon, Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), has is more reminiscent of McCarthyite witch hunts than a pledged that a future Labour Government will, but to modern and progressive construction industry that values make progress now, will the Minister today pledge to? its work force and considers health and safety to be not Following the completion of such an inquiry’s work, I a bolt-on or troublesome and tiresome, but integral, as hope that the House would be united and non-partisan it should be. in considering how the law could be tightened, employees Such practices are symptomatic of a race to the protected and tough sanctions against unscrupulous bottom, with lower employment rights, the undermining companies deployed. Will the Minister give any indication of health and safety and a general belief that cutting of the Government’s thinking on how the law can be corners and getting rid of troublesome staff who dare tightened? We have heard about blacklisting as a criminal to raise workplace safety are the best ways to raise offence, but there are other practical steps and other profit margins. That is not how this country should earn means by which the law can be changed. its money in the 21st century. I was disappointed that the construction industrial Today, we heard that many thousands of people have strategy, published in the summer, did not contain a been denied work that they were skilled in and qualified single reference to the practice of blacklisting and gave to undertake due to discrimination, and as a result they only scant mention—three paragraphs—of health and could not get jobs in their own industry or feed their safety. I would have liked the strategy to have shown families. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead how the Government emphasise a skilled and safe work and Kilburn and other hon. Friends said in the debate, force as one of the industry’s comparative strengths. the practice involved compiling information about Why was that not mentioned? individuals on a vast and systematic scale. It was done One of the effective levers that the Government could was through a shadowy organisation called the Consulting pull to help eliminate blacklisting is the effective use of Association, but has involved many other groups and public procurement. The Government could exclude companies. As my right hon. Friend the Member for firms that use blacklisting from tendering for contracts. Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) said, The They could request information about the practice and Observer reported this Sunday that the Independent find real evidence through the tendering process of how Police Complaints Commission has stated to those a particular company has used blacklisting. That could affected that the police colluded in the practice of include seeking evidence that the practice has ended blacklisting: and that the workers affected have secured appropriate “it is likely that all special branches were involved in providing compensation and are back in the employment market. information”. The Government could alter standard terms and conditions The degree to which the practice permeated through in contracts to make it explicit that any such contract the construction industry is truly shameful and shocking. would be immediately ended, without compensation to According to work from the Information Commissioner, the firm, if it was found that blacklisting was used by 44 construction companies were members of the Consulting the company and its subsidiaries. 291WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 292WH

[Mr Iain Wright] time we discuss it. It is important for the House to return to the issue, to be updated on it and to ask further The Welsh Government, as we heard from my hon. questions on it. As the Minister, I am more than happy Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), to be part of that. have been at the forefront of using procurement as an The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn clearly effective tool. They have provided a useful policy advice set out at the beginning of the debate that “the practice note to local authorities in Wales on the practical steps of blacklisting” is an innocuous form of words, but that that can be taken on eliminating blacklisting through what we are talking about is abhorrent and illegal. All procurement. What is Whitehall doing to achieve the the Members who have spoken have rightly echoed same thing? What discussions has the Minister had with those sentiments in their various ways, talking about other Departments, in particular the Department for their experiences in their constituencies or, in some Communities and Local Government, to ensure that the cases, such as that of the hon. Member for Paisley and elimination of blacklisting is being actively encouraged—not Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan), their own lives. only through central Government, but across local government? The Government’s position is the same: this practice is not acceptable in any way. No responsible company Several hon. Friends have mentioned the development should be involved in blacklisting, whether that is providing this week in which eight construction companies involved information for a blacklist, using a blacklist, consulting in blacklisting agreed to compensate some of the a blacklist or using information from a previous blacklist 3,200 workers affected. The setting up of the construction that was in operation before the regulations were introduced workers compensation scheme is welcome. We will scrutinise in 2010. That is not the behaviour of any responsible or the progress and terms of the scheme to ensure that it law-abiding company or any moral individual. People provides proper redress to victims in a swift manner. should be appointed to roles based on their merits and What help and support are the Government giving to whether they can do the job. If they are independent-minded the scheme? I know that the Minister cannot provide a and involved enough to be able to flag up issues, such as running commentary on negotiations, but can she give health and safety problems in the workplace, or if they a time scale for the scheme to be finalised and provide want to give more to their workplace through involvement compensation? in trade union activities, that is to be commended. Any As we have heard, some of those affected by blacklisting employer worth its salt will recognise the positive nature are elderly. What level of proper compensation is the of having an engaged and involved work force that are Minister pushing for from the companies, given that actively interested in ensuring that their workplace is these people—these workers—have endured years of safe and effective for everyone. The experiences that we unemployment as a result of blacklisting? They have have heard about have been not only abhorrent, but lost out on tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of hugely counter-productive, as many hon. Members have pounds of income. We have heard that only eight of the mentioned, on issues such as workplace safety records. 44 companies have signed up to the compensation scheme, We want to encourage an atmosphere where people can so what pressure is she putting on other companies who raise issues if there are problems without fearing that were part of the blacklisting scandal to be involved in that will impact on their future employability. the scheme? Finally, how does she intend to keep the As hon. Members know, there are significant powers House informed of progress, so that hon. Friends who in place to deal with blacklisting, but I entirely understand have a passionate interest in this issue can scrutinise the the frustration. I think it was the hon. Member for proposals? Nottingham North who mentioned the case of the My hon. Friends have spoken passionately today and Consulting Association and Ian Kerr, the £5,000 fine said that this is a national scandal, which shames the and the lack of ability to take any kind of serious action construction companies involved. It should never be against the individuals responsible, because the framework allowed to happen again and those who were discriminated was not in place at that time. That situation rightly against, often for decades, should be provided with needed addressing. The previous Government addressed swift and appropriate justice and compensation. I hope that issue with the consultation on and implementation that the Minister agrees with the tone of the debate and of the Employment Relations Act 1999 (Blacklists) will set out in detail how the Government will ensure Regulations 2010, which mean that someone is looking that the practice of blacklisting is ended and compensation at a £500,000 fine instead of a £5,000 fine. That might provided. not be the unlimited amount that some hon. Members have called for, but no one can deny that it is a serious 3.43 pm amount. There is data protection, but there is also the ability to award maximum compensation of some The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, £65,000—the minimum is £5,000—through the employment Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): It is a great pleasure tribunals system. We are in a better position on the legal to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan. I congratulate framework. the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) on securing the debate and opening it in her typically powerful style, with a degree of conciseness, Mr Davidson: Does the Minister accept that the which other Members have managed to emulate. That existing legislation must be flawed if someone can be has meant that we have heard from a good number of blacklisted on Crossrail without the blacklisting legislation Members today, which is positive. I know that a range being broken? of Members from all parts of the House have been working on the issue. We discussed it in January, we are Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman and I have discussed discussing it now, and, as the hon. Member for Nottingham the issue informally around the House on a few occasions, North (Mr Allen) said, I am sure it will be not the last and I very much welcome the work that he and his 293WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 294WH

Select Committee have been doing on it. I look forward with the Select Committee to ensure that the ICO is to reading the Committee’s report. We are, of course, provided with the information it needs to further its willing to look again at whether there are any gaps in investigation. I know that the Scottish Affairs Committee the legislation as a result of any evidence that his is very keen to work with the ICO, for which I thank the investigation discovers. hon. Gentleman. On Crossrail, at the beginning of September the two I should tell the House that despite the significant parties involved—I think it was Unite and BFK— debate on the issue—I am glad that it is a high-profile announced that blacklisting had not taken place. A one, because people will therefore be aware that we are further statement was issued by Unite some days later. I open to new evidence—the Scottish Affairs Committee am happy to look at that and hear from the hon. was the first body to get in touch with new information Gentleman and Unite whether there are specific issues about the continuation of blacklisting. Significant amounts there, particularly with contracting, which may be partly of evidence have been presented about blacklisting in why that issue arose. I am happy to liaise with him as his the past, but the Committee’s evidence is the only piece Committee continues its investigation with a view to we have received since the regulations came in and, producing a report. therefore, the only information that we have been able to act on. We will of course carefully consider both the Mr Meacher: Is it not clear that at the moment it is Scottish Affairs Committee’s report and the outcome of illegal to compile or maintain a blacklist, but not to use the Information Commissioner’s investigation into its a blacklist, to supply information or to be supplied with evidence. information by someone else? Such matters need to be Some hon. Members have called for a public inquiry, made illegal, so that all the problems we have heard but while those two investigations are ongoing, it makes about today are covered. perfect sense to await their outcome before jumping to an additional inquiry. The issue is currently being explored Jo Swinson: As I have said, I will happily look at the through those two avenues, and we should wait to see specific regulations, which include provisions on supplying the reports. information for blacklists. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman My hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen will write to me if he has any further points, particularly McPartland) asked a question, which was echoed by if there are more details that I can study. It is clearly not other Members, about ensuring that the victims of this appropriate for anyone to create a list or to supply abhorrent practice are made aware of that fact. I very information for such a list, or to blacklist workers, much enjoyed his comment that he was the first because that would quite rightly leave them open to Conservative MP to write for the Morning Star, which I employment tribunal claims or to possible action for am sure its readers appreciated. That earned him a kind breaches of data protection. The protections were put offer from the hon. Member for Nottingham North to in place in 2009. give him information about how to join a trade union. As I mentioned, we made a series of commitments Perhaps my hon. Friend should be careful, but I note about blacklisting in a debate in the House in January that no Conservative Whips are in the Chamber, so 2013. We promised to investigate any evidence provided perhaps we will not tell them. about the continuation of blacklisting, to look carefully My hon. Friend’s very fair question was about proactively at the Scottish Affairs Committee’s findings about contacting people on the database. It is important to blacklisting that happened before 2010 and to review say that there is a fast-track service, so anyone who the legislation if the Committee identified evidence that suspects that they are on the list can find out whether the practice was continuing. that is the case and get a copy of the information. For We are honouring those commitments, and I want to anyone who is interested—hon. Members may wish to inform the House about our actions since that debate. pass this on to constituents who are concerned about In February, the Independent Police Complaints the issue—the helpline number is 0303 123 1113. So far, Commission began an investigation into allegations 3,919 people have contacted the helpline, of whom that the police may previously have provided information 446 have been identified on the Consulting Association to the Consulting Association blacklist, a point that blacklist. various Members have made. I suspect that you would The ICO is trying proactively to contact individuals not be happy, Sir Alan, if I commented on a live IPCC on the list in other ways. It has made sure that union investigation, but we will of course be interested to see lawyers can access some of the information, so that they its outcome. If anyone has concerns about allegations can write to any of their members they identify on the that are not currently under investigation by the relevant list, and invite them to get in touch with the ICO. The authorities, I encourage them to take such allegations ICO has undertaken a project with Equifax to check to the IPCC or, for data protection breaches, to the whether address information in the files is up to date. Information Commissioner’s Office. As a result, it has written to 103 individuals, of whom The Secretary of State met the Information 27 have contacted the ICO to make a subject access Commissioner, Christopher Graham, in April to make request. The ICO has also worked with the Department sure that he is ready and able to investigate any new for Work and Pensions to determine whether up-to-date evidence that comes to light. In July, the hon. Member addresses can be identified from a national insurance for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) and his Scottish number when that is included in the information held. Affairs Committee announced that there was new evidence The ICO hopes shortly to write to individuals for whom and information about the continuation of blacklisting. it has obtained up-to-date addresses. Within 24 hours of that communication, we alerted the I understand Members’ frustration, but I would say Information Commissioner’s Office, which began an in the ICO’s defence that such processes are not investigation. I understand that the ICO is in touch straightforward. The information is not contained in a 295WH Blacklisting16 OCTOBER 2013 Blacklisting 296WH

[Jo Swinson] to have firm evidence, because it is a challenge to produce bona fide evidence when, by definition, the activity is snazzy database; much of it is on paper or in card files, clandestine—we will of course happily look at such and some of it is very scant, with sometimes only a first evidence, as the Select Committee has done. name and surname. If the name is John Smith, that is almost meaningless, for someone trying to contact the John McDonnell: To make it clear to the ICO, will the person, without address details and other information. Minister state that she expects it to contact everybody The range of actions that the ICO is taking to piece on the list? information together—working with unions, the DWP and credit reference agencies—is certainly very positive. Jo Swinson: I absolutely expect the ICO to contact I repeat that anyone who is concerned should contact everyone on that list, where that is possible, practical the helpline. and feasible, but I also recognise that the information is incomplete in some cases, and that its attempts to do so Mr Meacher: The Minister is making a case for the may not therefore be successful. I hope that the House ICO’s efforts to contact people. The obvious question recognises those basic practicalities. that remains is whether the ICO is under instructions to correspond with or contact everyone for whom it has Mr McKenzie: Is the Minister aware of the TUC’s information that is adequate enough to enable it to do campaign to make blacklisting a criminal offence, and so. That is the key point. I understand that if the name will she support it? is one like John Smith, that person cannot be traced, but when the ICO can contact someone because it has a Jo Swinson: I am obviously aware of the campaign. A name, a telephone number or anything else, is it under range of civil and criminal offences exist, including in instructions to contact them? employment or health and safety legislation. Criminal offences are much less common, but some breaches of Jo Swinson: The ICO is making every effort to contact data protection carry a criminal penalty, so blacklisting people. It is not a body sponsored by the Department would be a crime in those cases. However, that does not for Business, Innovation and Skills, but we have discussed apply to a wide range of offences, such as unfair dismissal, the issue with the ICO, and that is exactly what is causing detriment to whistleblowers or discrimination. happening. We recognise that there are some cases in 3.59 pm which the process is difficult, but the ICO is determined that when it can contact people, it absolutely is doing Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. so. On resuming—

Mr Iain Wright: The Minister is quite rightly focusing 4.13 pm on the construction industry, but hon. Members have Jo Swinson: My final point was about procurement. mentioned other sectors. What active steps are the The Welsh guidance has been referred to, although that Government taking to find out whether there is blacklisting guidance just restates how existing legal provisions already in other parts of the economy? apply, and we look forward to the Procurement Bill in the Scottish Parliament, which I understand we may see Jo Swinson: I have outlined the investigations that are more details of next week. Of course, the Cabinet Office ongoing. We do need something to go on: there is much has general guidance, covering a range of issues affecting speculation about and many suggestions of blacklisting procurement, which of course means checking that taking place, but the relevant authorities need somewhere contractors are adhering to practices that comply with to start to look for it. That is why in the debates earlier the law— this year and today I have reiterated that if anyone has information, concerns or suspicions—they do not need Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair): Order. 297WH 16 OCTOBER 2013 Living Standards (North Wales) 298WH

Living Standards (North Wales) 10,200—35% of the work force. In Ynys Môn, the figure is 10,100; in Clwyd West, where the Secretary of 4.14 pm State for Wales resides, the figure is 9,000. Those public sector workers are not only vilified by the Conservatives Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I rise today to but have had their wages frozen until 2015-16. There is discuss the living standards in north Wales—the dropping no help to rebalance the economies that have been living standards in north Wales. reliant on public sector jobs; there is no specific help or The TUC reckons that Wales has the lowest levels of guidance from the UK Government for those constituencies. disposable income in the UK and has experienced the highest falls in living standards in the UK. There has Who are the losers from the drop in living standards? been a drop in living standards for 38 of the 39 months It is the young long-term unemployed. There are more that this Tory-Lib Dem coalition has been in power. In than a million of them in the country. In an 18-month constituencies in north Wales, the impact has been period from early 2009 to 2010, in my home town of severe. Between 2007 and 2012, in Flintshire the average Rhyl in my constituency we put 450 young people back pay packet for a 40-hour week dropped by nearly £3,000 to work through the future jobs fund, under a Labour and in my own county of Denbighshire it dropped by Government. That scheme was abolished almost as more than £2,000. soon as the Conservative Government entered office. The outward sign of the drop in living standards is, Children are big sufferers from the drop in living of course, the food banks—the food banks that many standards. An excellent Daily Post article from 18 July Conservative Ministers and MPs refuse to go to when calculates that 24,400 children in north Wales are living they are repeatedly asked to do so in the main Chamber. in poverty and that the state will pay an extra £265 million I have been to food banks in my constituency and I a year in additional school costs, benefits and NHS praise the work of people who volunteer at them; they costs. We are even seeing the disease of rickets creep do a sterling job. I have visited the Wellspring centre in back into the UK, for the first time since the 1950s. my constituency and shared soup with the people that it I have tabled questions about this—[Interruption.] I see provided food for. The citizens advice bureau in Denbigh the Minister huffing and puffing. set up a food bank; in fact, it is an award-winning food The disabled have also suffered because of a drop in bank and I congratulate the CAB in Denbigh for it. living standards. This group has been vilified, as well. The Conservatives say, “Oh, food banks increased by Disability is the only one of the five or six hate crime tenfold under Labour.” They did, from 3,000 to about categories, which include sexual orientation, religion 34,000. Under the Conservatives, however, they have and ethnic origin, that has increased in the past year. increased from about 40,000 to nearly 400,000—another The elderly are the other group to have suffered because tenfold increase. The food banks under Labour were of the drop in living standards. They are on fixed peripheral; as I say, there were 34,000 of them, at most. incomes. When their fuel bills increase by 8% or 7%, Under the Conservatives, food banks are central. Since they have no way of paying them, except by cutting 2011, the Government have given instructions to jobcentres back on food or other necessities. to refer people who have no money to food banks. Food In north Wales, 8,178 people will suffer because of banks are part of official Government policy—dare I the bedroom tax, but there are not 8,178 single-person say official Government philosophy? It is charity versus units in the whole of north Wales to look after them. the state; charity taking the place of the state. It is the big society, or, as I call it, the “beg society”, where soup Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Last week I kitchens are here in the 21st century, having last been heard about a case of a man, in a couple, who was seen in the 1930s. As I say, I have shared soup with the disabled and on whom the council spent a small fortune people using them. creating a wet room downstairs. This couple is to be Will there be a return to the workhouse, the alms moved to a one-bedroom place. The council will, no house, the deserving poor and the undeserving poor? doubt, have to spend money converting that and ripping The language coming from certain sections and certain out the stuff from the previous place. It makes no sense. MPs on the right—I do not include the Minister here today in that group—is disgraceful. I will give a case in point. The Education Secretary said that the people Chris Ruane: It does not make social sense or economic who visit these food banks sense. The state will be paying £60 a week rent for many people living in council houses. If such people are moved “are not…able to manage their finances.”—[Official Report, 9 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 681.] into houses of multiple occupation in my constituency, the state will be paying £85 a week. The conditions in Could the Education Secretary himself “manage” his HMOs are far worse than on council estates. finances on £56 a week, if he was a young person, or on £71 a week, if he was over 25? I think not—that money Some 420,000 households in Wales are living in fuel would hardly cover the price of a bottle of Moët. The poverty, 84,000 of them in north Wales alone. Household Government have the wrong priorities—while they are fuel bills have increased by £300 since the Government forcing people to use food banks, they are giving a have been in power. Those who suffer most are on £44,000 handout to people earning £1 million a year. pre-payment meters. I was brought up in a household Of particular interest to people in my constituency with pre-payment meters; we put £50 in the “leccy” if and the other constituencies in north Wales is the issue the lights went out. Those people will be paying an of public sector workers, who are another group vilified extra £50 a year, because they are not on direct debit. by the Conservatives. There are huge numbers of public Every which way, the poorest are hit the most. sector workers in certain constituencies in north Wales. Fuel bills went up by 7% last year. In this current The number of people who reside in my constituency, season, the first energy company out of the blocks is the Vale of Clwyd, and work in the public sector is going to increase its prices by 8%, at the same time as 299WH Living Standards (North Wales)16 OCTOBER 2013 Living Standards (North Wales) 300WH

[Chris Ruane] reckon that 5 million people are on them. Either way, those are huge numbers and they are having a devastating chief executive officers in energy companies are having effect. It is costly to the state, because if companies do golden handshakes of £15 million or £13.5 million. not pay the going rate for the job, the state has to step in Under Labour’s home energy efficiency scheme, the and subsidise that; it is also a cost to taxpayers. energy efficiency of 127,000 households in Wales was The issue is also costly for individuals, because they improved, cutting down people’s bills and their carbon cannot plan their future. They cannot get a mortgage footprint. The great green hope from the parties in on a zero-hours contract, cannot save up and get Christmas Government was the green deal, What a failure that has presents and cannot plan for holidays. The working been! At the top of the green deal figures for the whole week, including taking children to and from school, of Wales is Alyn and Deeside, where 19 households have cannot be planned for properly. These contracts have an been checked; at number two is Delyn, with 16 households; impact on people’s well-being and mental health. third is Wrexham, with 13; and at number four is Clwyd The issue is costly for the companies implementing West, with 13. In the Prime Minister’s constituency of the contracts, because they will not get loyalty, good Witney, six households were assessed for the green deal. will and commitment from a work force on zero-hours This policy was going to rescue those living in fuel contracts—they are pinging and ponging back and poverty, but it has done nothing for them. forth to work and can be sacked at a moment’s notice. It is also costly for companies paying a proper wage, Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Perhaps the hon. because they are undercut by those who use zero-hours Gentleman will remember that the Arbed scheme—the contracts. Overall, it is a costly business. The Labour insulation scheme that he mentioned—was part of a party in opposition has shone the light on these dark programme from the “One Wales” Government and practices and got the political ball moving. was the responsibility of, and was launched by, Jocelyn Davies, the then Housing Minister. Does the hon. To combat the drop in living standards, we need a Gentleman share my disappointment that Labour’s energy living wage. I congratulate Councillor Joan Butterfield, price freeze does not extend to coal, liquid petroleum leader of the Labour group in Denbighshire, who is gas and oil? What can he do, in his party, to ensure that pushing for that. The local churches in my constituency— it does extend to those? Catholic and other churches—led by Father Charles Ramsay, my parish priest, are also pushing for a living wage. Chris Ruane: Fuel poverty is being looked at. It is on the political agenda because our Labour leader put it Living standards are crucial. Labour had a good there during conference season. Labour is dictating record on that in government and looked after the the agenda on living standards. That aspect should be poorest of the poor, with, for example, Bookstart, child looked into. care credits, nurseries for everybody, Sure Start, the I shall now talk about those in work. When Labour education maintenance allowance, child trust funds and came into power, the proudest political moment in my the future jobs fund. We dropped VAT from 20% to 16 years in Parliament was the night, the day and 15%. All that helped people’s living standards. the day after we introduced the minimum wage. The Let us look at what has happened to child poverty Conservatives kept us up for about 28 hours. They hated under the Conservative-Liberal Government. The latest it and said that it would cost 3 million jobs and be figures on child poverty, on which there is a two-year devastating for the economy. It did not cost 3 million delay, show that the trough peaked under Labour and jobs; it created another 3 million jobs. Their prediction that child poverty will rise again under the Conservatives. was 6 million jobs out. The minimum wage put a floor The Prime Minister is for ever vilifying the Welsh in for those who are paid poor wages. Government and saying, “Look at Labour in practice, The issue today is zero-hours contracts. I have tabled look at their bad practice here and their bad practice some 50 questions about those. there.” Let me give MPs a taste of what the Labour Government are doing in practice in Wales. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I congratulate my In England, the education maintenance allowance hon. Friend on securing this debate. When talking was scrapped—the allowance was an opportunity to about living standards in areas such as north Wales, the keep 16 to 18-year-olds in school so that they could get cost of travel, particularly in rural areas, should be their A-levels, go on to college and get a good job. In considered in addition to food inflation and energy Wales, it was not scrapped. In England, tuition fees prices. The Government are considering areas in Wales went from £3,000 to £9,000; in Wales, they were capped that may benefit from a discount, but does my hon. at £3,500. In England, there were cuts to council tax Friend agree that hard-working families are suffering benefits; in Wales, the Welsh Government allocated because of the great distances that they have to travel, £22 million to stop those cuts. to work and to take their children to leisure facilities? Last week, £17 million was announced by Alun Davies, a Minister in Wales, to combat fuel poverty over a Chris Ruane: Absolutely. That is a particular problem two-year period, which is equivalent to a UK Government in rural areas. I represent the Vale of Clwyd, a rural allocating £1.5 billion to address fuel poverty. The seat. This is just one of many ways in which ordinary Welsh Government are doing an excellent job of helping working families are being hit by the parties in Government. to buffer the Conservative-Liberal coalition’s negative Earlier today, I attended the zero-hours contracts effects on living standards. debate in the main Chamber. Statistics are scarce. The The Conservative party has tried to get rid of its Office for National Statistics claims that 240,000 people nasty reputation. The Home Secretary described the are on zero-hours contracts, but some trade unions party as the “nasty party,” and the Conservative leader 301WH Living Standards (North Wales)16 OCTOBER 2013 Living Standards (North Wales) 302WH went to the Arctic to hug a husky and to Manchester to are the ones who benefit and are given incentives to move hug a hoodie. As has been said today, instead of hugging into work and be at the front and centre of maximising a husky he is now gassing the badgers. The mask has opportunities from the economic recovery. slipped: Flashman is back in charge. It is a pleasure and a privilege to be a Minister in the In the 1980s, the Conservatives atomised, alienated Wales Office, and I have the opportunity to go around and broke up society. They were out for 13 years, and all parts of the Principality. I see many of the exciting now they are back to their old tricks—look at the things that are currently happening in the Welsh private language being used. The Education Secretary says that sector, and I have to tell Opposition Members that people are not able to manage their own finances. The much of that is happening in north Wales; it is happening Conservatives have the wrong priority in giving money in their own constituencies. Unemployment is falling in to millionaires. They are allowing £15 million golden most north Wales constituencies. Unemployment is not handshakes to chief executive officers of energy companies. falling everywhere, and we are not complacent about They are reintroducing soup kitchens. We have beggars that. We want unemployment to fall in every parliamentary in the street for the first time ever in Prestatyn. The constituency, but the hon. Gentleman cannot stand number of homeless people in Rhyl has doubled, and there and say what he said without recognising that we will see people from the inner cities of England unemployment in his constituency is lower today than driven out to the UK’s coastal towns, including in when his party left office. I remind him that, under the Wales. previous Labour Government, in the five years between All that does not bode well for the future, and I am 2005 and 2010, unemployment increased in his constituency pleased that my Labour party and my Labour leader by more than 100%. have put living standards at the heart of political debate. Chris Ruane: The top-line unemployment statistics look okay, but the number of people on jobseeker’s 4.32 pm allowance for 12 months or more was 215 in 2010, and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales it was 516 in 2012. The underlying trend is that the (Stephen Crabb): It is a pleasure to serve under your number of people who are long-term unemployed, who chairmanship, Sir Alan. I congratulate the hon. Member are the most difficult people to get back to work, is for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) on securing this debate. going massively upwards and there is no room for Listening to the hon. Gentleman and some of his complacency. colleagues, I am struck by the negative picture they paint of life in north Wales. We are debating living Stephen Crabb: I am the last person to be complacent. standards and quality of life in north Wales. I am not I recognise that a huge amount of work still needs to be from north Wales—many of the Opposition Members done, but the latest figures today confirm that the overall here today are—but let me be the first to say this employment picture in Wales is positive. Unemployment afternoon that north Wales is, remains and will continue is falling across Wales. Overall employment levels are to be a great place to live, a great place to work and a increasing, which we should welcome and want to see great place for businesses to invest. more of. At this time, as the economic recovery starts to gather At the start of the hon. Gentleman’s speech, he pace in Wales, what should be seizing all of us with an talked about the decline in real wages between 2007 and interest in north Wales, on both sides of the House, is 2012 in Denbighshire and Flintshire. We can go through how to maximise the opportunities that are coming for the figures later if he wants more detail, but the vast Wales, so that we ensure that the economic recovery is a majority of the decline in real wages happened in the recovery for the whole of Wales and that north Wales is last three years of the previous Labour Government, front and centre of that recovery. when, as a result of the economic trauma that they visited upon this country, there was an enormous destruction Albert Owen: Will the Minister give way? of wealth and real wages fell. We are now seeing a recovery in wages, including in Wales, but there is a long Stephen Crabb: Forgive me, but I will not give way way still to go before we are back to previous levels. because I have not been left with much time. On income tax, I recognise that many families are This afternoon we have heard Opposition Members facing difficult financial circumstances. That is why we talking down north Wales and the Welsh economy and are putting cash back into those families’ pockets by not recognising many of the great things that are happening taking the lowest-paid workers out of income tax altogether. in their own constituencies that we should be celebrating We have now cut income tax for more than 1.1 million and promoting. working people in Wales by increasing the tax-free The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd, for whom I personal allowance. We are lifting 130,000 of the lowest-paid have a huge amount of time and respect, finished his workers in Wales out of income tax altogether by contribution with a rather crude political attack on my increasing that allowance to £10,000. Some 324,000 party and my Government. Of course, it was his party taxpayers in north Wales will benefit from that increase that said it was “intensely relaxed”about people becoming in the personal allowance. filthy rich. His party was intensely relaxed about abolishing Employers in north Wales are also benefiting from the 10p tax band, which hurt the lowest-paid workers the fact that we are implementing in full all the the most. His party was intensely relaxed about soaring recommendations of the independent Low Pay petrol prices and soaring council tax. The Government Commission. The hon. Gentleman talked about are not relaxed about such things, which is why we are Conservative opposition to the minimum wage, but I doing everything that we can as the economic recovery for one never opposed the minimum wage, which has gathers pace to ensure that people on the lowest incomes benefited the lowest-paid workers. This year, we are able 303WH Living Standards (North Wales)16 OCTOBER 2013 Living Standards (North Wales) 304WH

[Stephen Crabb] Housing benefit reform and the overall programme of welfare reform have been mentioned on a day when not only to implement all the Low Pay Commission’s we again see unemployment in Wales fall. Opposition recommendations but to go further: the commission Members cannot be on the side of falling unemployment, recommended freezing the apprentice rate, but we are while opposing welfare reform. Welfare reform is a vital not freezing it; we are increasing it, and we can do so ingredient in tackling worklessness at source, which is because we have taken difficult decisions to restore what we are seeing in Wales. discipline and order to our national finances and to put our house in order, which has given us the capacity and Hywel Williams: Will the Minister tell the House the resources to do things such as increase minimum wages. what assessment the Government made of the elasticity One thing that we are committed to freezing, however, of the housing market before ending the spare-room is fuel duty, and we have now seen fuel duty frozen for subsidy? Will the market be able to respond to the nearly three-and-a-half years. This year, the average increased demand for one and two-bedroom properties? motorist will save £7 each time they fill up their fuel tank. I remind Opposition Members that, had Labour Stephen Crabb: We have had many opportunities to been elected in 2010 and implemented its detailed financial discuss the availability of certain types of housing plans in full, as it had intended, the price of petrol in Wales. The housing stock differs between different would be 13p a litre higher than today. That is an areas, and I do not deny that shortages exist in certain example of the Government putting cash back into the parts of Wales. That is why we are making more than pockets of hard-working people and hard-working families. £7 million available to Welsh local authorities through Again, we can do that only because we were able, discretionary housing payments to ease the transition willing and had the strength of purpose to take difficult to the implementation of our housing benefit reforms. decisions at the start of this Parliament to put our [Interruption.] Opposition Members may want to chunter national finances in order and to restore some sanity to and mumble as we discuss such matters, but I am yet to national budgeting. see one of them stand up and give me a credible plan for how they will bring order back to our housing benefit Albert Owen: I wish to put on record that I very much expenditure, while tackling the unfairness of tens of admire the resilience of the people of north Wales. We thousands of people in Wales living in overcrowded were not talking down north Wales; we were giving an accommodation or waiting for access to social housing honest picture. On fuel duty, will the Minister tell us while many people—let me absolutely blunt about it—are what negotiations the Wales Office has had with the able to live in houses with extra space and more rooms Treasury and others on the rebate scheme and how it than they strictly need. will be implemented in Wales? I am talking about not only asking businesses, but providing leadership from The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd mentioned food the Wales Office. banks and was absolutely incorrect to say that Conservatives have refused to visit them. I regularly visit my local food Stephen Crabb: I can write to the hon. Gentleman bank. In fact, I was a trustee of the charity that runs it, with further details, but we are in close discussion with so I know exactly what food banks do. I know what they the Treasury on the implementation of that scheme in do well and what they do not do so well. From speaking Wales. I have personally written to the Chief Secretary to colleagues right across the House, I know that to the Treasury about the scheme, and we want as much Conservatives have no fear at all about going to visit of rural Wales as possible to benefit. food banks. He made the point that Jobcentre Plus has We are also committed to freezing council tax in been referring people to food banks since 2011, but England. Let us remind ourselves that council tax more what happened before 2011 under the previous Labour than doubled under the previous Labour Government. Government? They banned jobcentres from advertising The council tax freeze, of course, does not apply to the availability of food banks. They tried to cover up Wales, as it is a devolved matter. We have provided the the fact that food banks were increasing in number on Welsh Government in Cardiff with both the opportunity their watch. They did not want to acknowledge that and the resources, but they have so far refused a freeze. food banks existed and were growing. We are not taking If Opposition Members are genuinely concerned about that approach. We see food banks as a vital part of the standards of living and the financial pressures on families social economy at this difficult time, and we are working in Wales, they should be rapping hard on the doors of in close partnership with them. Welsh Ministers in Cardiff, wanting to know why they In conclusion, I have the huge privilege of being able are not implementing a council tax freeze in the same to get out and about around Wales. I see so many good way that we are doing in England. things happening in north Wales. I will say it again for There was some discussion of energy prices. Let me the record that north Wales remains a fantastic place to put it on the record that I have not heard one thing from live, work and invest. an Opposition Member, or even from the Leader of the Opposition, about a commitment to freezing energy Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair): Beforewemoveonto prices that has a shred of credibility. When the Leader the next debate, I want to remind hon. Members of the of the Opposition was Secretary of State for Energy rules. If Members want to make a speech during a and Climate Change, energy prices in this country soared. half-hour debate, they should seek the permission of [HON.MEMBERS: “They went down!”] Opposition Members the Member who secured the debate and the Minister. cannot seek continued investment in energy infrastructure Members can, however, make interventions as long as to deliver lower prices in future and to keep our lights the initiator or the Minister is willing to give way. I urge on, while making irresponsible and crude promises that hon. Members to keep that in mind. Members are also they can somehow freeze energy prices. supposed to write in before speaking in such debates, 305WH Living Standards (North Wales) 16 OCTOBER 2013 306WH but so far only one Member has done so. I mention Badger Vaccines those rules because the attendance showed this topic to be extraordinarily popular, but the debates are only 4.45 pm 30 minutes long, so please bear with us. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I am delighted to have secured a debate on the important subject of badger vaccinations to prevent bovine TB. I am also delighted that so many hon. Members are here today. I hope that the debate will be measured and grown up, because the subject is truly apolitical and everybody in the room will have an opinion on how best to proceed. Everybody wants to see TB being reduced while the badger population is preserved. Before I start my speech, may I welcome the Minister to his new role? I have known him for some time and I am elated about his new position. I have always had the utmost respect for his abilities and he will do a huge amount for rural communities such as the Lune valley, which I represent. We are all acutely aware of the controversy around the ongoing cull and the desire on both sides of the debate to control bovine TB with the minimum disturbance to wildlife. Both sides have offered compelling arguments and I voted in favour of the cull as an interim measure ahead of work on a viable, deliverable and safe vaccine. I hope that the Minister will update us on the progress of the research and development of the oral vaccine. I also want to ask him what steps are being taken with groups such as the Badger Trust towards bringing in volunteers to help with any future vaccination programme. Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he agree that any vaccination proposals should be accompanied by improved measures relating to biosecurity on farms and more adequate controls on cattle movement? David Morris: I totally agree. Later in my speech, I will explain some of the technicalities behind what the hon. Lady has just articulated. I pay tribute at this point to the work of Team Badger in highlighting the need for vaccinations. The group is led by Dr Brian May, CBE, and I know how much time, effort and money he puts into humanitarian and wildlife issues. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I spoke to him beforehand, Sir Alan, and asked his permission to speak. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman not only on securing the debate, but on supporting the cull. I support the cull, as do many others in the House, but many others do not. Does he recognise that bovine TB costs dairy and beef farmers millions of pounds? Should that not be the first reason for trying to continue the cull and for ensuring that badgers are eradicated? David Morris: There is a cost to the issue, as there is with anything of this nature, but as I will explain later in my speech, there is a funding situation that can be annexed to involve Team Badger and various other badger projects. Today’s debate comes during the badger cull and following the Opposition day debate on 5 June, in which a wide range of hon. Members participated. I believe that 5 June was the start of the process of bringing both sides together, to which I hope today’s debate also contributes. It is pretty easy for all of us to understand 307WH Badger Vaccines16 OCTOBER 2013 Badger Vaccines 308WH

[David Morris] contiguous farms is going ahead with the support of Professor Rosie Woodroffe of the Zoological Society the opposition to the cull, but we must not characterise of London. those in favour of it as being cruel. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and farmers have David Morris: I would like to see similar programmes the best interests of the countryside and the agricultural rolled out nationally. community at heart and want to help in the best way I must make some progress. The latest parliamentary possible and protect badgers at the same time, but they report was published by the all-party group on dairy believe, rightly or wrongly, that the spread of bovine TB farmers, which was established by my hon. Friend the will be significantly reduced if we cull 70% of badgers Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski). in the cull zones. That said, the last major cull from The group had 250 members, of whom 70 were Labour 1997 to 2007 was not deemed to have dealt with the problem MPs, and the report recommended a badger cull. Research to the extent that was hoped and cost £50 million. done under the previous Government suggested that the cull will reduce bovine TB by 16%. Obviously, that Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): Does is a good thing, but we must work towards eradicating my hon. Friend recognise that one of the benefits of TB completely. From what I can see, a vaccination vaccination versus a cull is that vaccinations have no programme for both cattle and badgers is the only was perturbation effect? to ensure that. I do not want to dwell on the need to vaccinate cattle and the problems that that would raise, David Morris: I agree totally. Vaccination increases but it is worth flagging up that, if we can do that in a herd immunity, while culling increases the spread of cost-effective manner, we should. disease. A BCG is available for badgers, which is not unlike the injection most of us had at school. The concern Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): For the record, about it is that the need to trap and tag badgers in order I am a member of the British Veterinary Association. to deliver it effectively can make it expensive, as we have May I ask the hon. Gentleman two questions? Does he discussed. There seems to be widespread agreement, agree that a vaccine does not cure an infected beast and therefore, that we need an effective oral vaccination, that, if a beast is infected, it must be culled? and I again invite the Minister to comment on research and development and the progress in that field. It is worth pointing out that, this week, a National Farmers David Morris: Despite a massive cull in southern Union briefing was fully in favour of work on vaccines, Ireland, of 97,000 badgers, the rates of TB in the north, while DEFRA is undertaking a survey of the number of where there were no culls, are still the same. If a badger badgers in the UK, which shows that there is common with TB is vaccinated, it will not be cured, but if it ground between both sides, even if that is not obvious reproduces, its young will be immune. at first.

Ian Paisley: It is important that people understand Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab) rose— what the vaccine does. The beast is trapped and tested: if it has the disease, it is culled; but if the test is not Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con) rose— positive and it is free of the disease, it is injected. However, it has to be injected for the next five years—caught David Morris: I shall give way to the hon. Lady and every year and injected—and that costs about £3,000 then to my hon. Friend. per beast. Nia Griffith: Will the hon. Gentleman join me in David Morris: I hear what the hon. Gentleman is congratulating the Welsh Government on the work that saying and I understand his argument. In the culling at they have done to date on introducing badger vaccines? the moment, however, badgers are being trapped and Will he urge his colleagues in the Government to work shot—there is only one sentence for them, if caught, closely with the Welsh Government in order to make and that is to be killed. such progress?

Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): On the points made David Morris: That is a helpful intervention, and by the previous two Members who intervened, the I shall do so at all opportunities given to me. whole debate needs to be centred on the evidence base. Perturbation is of concern—the evidence is that Caroline Dinenage: My hon. Friend has been incredibly perturbation exists when culling takes place. generous with all the interventions, so I shall be brief. He mentioned that cost is often cited as the a reason for vaccinations not taking place, but does he agree that, if David Morris: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. the cost of policing a badger cull is included, the cost difference is almost negligible? Furthermore, if the good Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): On the potential for will of all the volunteers who have been campaigning on the Government’s policy to make the situation worse, behalf of badgers were harnessed, and they were turned that is likely to happen if the cull levels are as low as into vaccinators or those aiding vaccinators, much of they are reported to be. I have to congratulate the the cost difference could be mitigated overnight. Government, however, on their support for a proposed community-led badger vaccination programme on David Morris: That is the spirit of the debate—how 200 sq km in my constituency, in the Land’s End we proceed and eradicate a problem that has blighted peninsula, Penwith. The first year of vaccination on our countryside. 309WH Badger Vaccines16 OCTOBER 2013 Badger Vaccines 310WH

As I said, the DEFRA survey of badger numbers Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and Team Badger, shows that there is some common ground. On the the taxpayer will be in a much better position. When the subject of badger numbers, I have heard huge variations Government do not have the budgets that they once in the estimates, which range from 150,000 to 350,000. had, this must be welcome. It is vital to understand how many badgers there are, To recap, here are the questions that I hope the and I thank the Secretary of State and the Minister for Minister will answer. How far are we from a deliverable their work on solving the problem. We cannot understand oral vaccine? Can we work on a cattle vaccine without bovine TB and badgers’ effect on it until we can say for falling foul of European Union rules? Will he commit certain how many badgers there are. to creating a dialogue around those things that we agree The problem will not be solved by Government alone. on? Will he support fundraising efforts by groups such We must have dialogue between DEFRA, the farmer as Team Badger and others? Is DEFRA open to the and Team Badger and its affiliates. Together, they can idea of a big society badger vaccination programme work to ensure that we never need to consider a badger undertaken by volunteers? cull again. Vaccines are expensive, but most of the cost I appreciate that the issues are easy to flag up, but of the vaccination programme is in manpower. I dream much harder to address. I firmly believe, however, that of a world in which DEFRA trains volunteers from with the right work, public will, dialogue and effort on Team Badger to administer vaccines, while farmers play all sides, we can do this. We must remember that the their part by facilitating the volunteers. prize at stake is that none of us would have to go through the heartache and division of further badger Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I congratulate my culls again. hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Most people in the Chamber fully support the principle of vaccination, but when talking about funding, do we not 4.59 pm have to be realistic? An oral vaccine is the only long-term TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, solution to the problem, so is that not where all the Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I welcome this money and funding need to be targeted by the Minister debate, which my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and his team, rather than on the injectable vaccine, and Lunesdale (David Morris) called for. The number which is not really a long-term solution? of people here today suggests that we could do with more than half an hour to debate some of the issues. I David Morris: I am all for whichever means of welcome the tone with which my hon. Friend approached administering a vaccine is found. Yes, its development the debate. He is right that some people take different will cost a lot of money, but, as I shall explain, the way views about whether we should pursue a cull strategy, ahead might be a measure that empowers members of but we all agree that there is a role for vaccination of the pro-badger community to go into match funding both cattle and badgers. with DEFRA. I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I was pleased to have the opportunity to consider the Funding streams for working on better vaccines for matter in detail in my recent role as a member of the animals are available in DEFRA, and Team Badger has Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural indicated that it would be willing to raise money to Affairs. The Government’s response to its report was match what DEFRA puts in. In fact, ahead of any published earlier today and shows that we share a proposed scheme, Team Badger has already set up a significant amount of common ground on the issue. website to raise funds and opened applications for Bovine TB is the biggest threat to the livestock industry volunteers. That represents real progress, but the stumbling in England—I was going to say Cornwall, where it is block is the cull—it is hard to get people around the also a threat, as the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew table as long as it is going on. George) knows. Having lived and worked in the farming My plea to all sides today, across the political divides—we industry in Cornwall, I know how difficult the problem are all sensible and human—is for us to open genuine is. My family run a herd of pedigree south Devon cattle dialogue on bringing forward a viable and deliverable and in the late 1960s, before my time, they had an vaccination scheme. We are all agreed on our desire to incident of TB that wiped out more than half the herd create a viable vaccination programme in order to avoid and had a devastating impact on the family farm. My future culls, so let us concentrate on doing that. People father still talks about it. will still disagree about the rights or wrongs of the By the 1980s, we had almost eradicated the disease, present cull, but for the purposes of this discussion I but in the last 10 years there has been a severe deterioration. hope that we can put our differences aside. That is not It has cost the country more than £5 million so far to to say that people will not vigorously argue and debate fight the disease. Last year, we had to slaughter some it, but ensuring that we are in a position to avoid culls in 28,000 animals. Bovine control is not under control. In the future is the bigger issue and what must be fixed. Lancashire, the county of my hon. Friend the Member We are in an age of the big society, with Government for Morecambe and Lunesdale, we have seen an increase determined to bring more volunteers and charities together in the number of herds under restriction and the number with Departments. In the case of badgers, we have some of cattle slaughtered in the last year. amazingly well organised and professional charities and lobby groups. It is vital that DEFRA makes full use of Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): The Minister those groups, which could be the magic wand that says that bovine TB is spreading more, and that is enables us to deliver a vaccination programme cost- exactly why people are saying that culling is not the effectively. Furthermore, if the lion’s share of research answer. Scientists involved in a randomised badger culling and development, and of delivery of the programme, is trial between 1998 and 2005 have shown that culling has undertaken by groups such as the Royal Society for the not contributed meaningfully to a reduction in the 311WH Badger Vaccines16 OCTOBER 2013 Badger Vaccines 312WH

[Yasmin Qureshi] no protection. That is a shortcoming of a vaccination policy, but it would be a useful addition to the toolkit disease and, if anything, has increased it because as the and we will use it to tackle the disease when we can animals are shot, they run away and carry the disease perfect it. with them. Angela Smith: I welcome the Minister to his new role. George Eustice: It is generally accepted that, after the He has mentioned the words “toolkit” and “all the tools initial conclusions of the randomised badger culling in the box” more than once. Will he rule out one tool trials, there was a significant reduction of some 16% in that most hon. Members believe is unacceptable—the the cull area in the following years. On perturbation, gassing of badgers in any future cull? which other hon. Members have also raised, there was an increase in TB in a ring immediately around the trial George Eustice: We have made it clear that we would areas as a result of perturbation, but the incidence then never use gassing as a means of controlling the badger dropped. Overall, there was a reduction. I point the population if we thought it was inhumane, but it is in hon. Lady to evidence in other countries, such as the the consultation for research. That does not mean that Republic of Ireland, which has had a cull policy since we will use it, but we will consider further research in 2000 with a reduction of around 45% in the incidence of this area. the disease, and the number of cattle having to be The research is not on animals. It involves laboratory slaughtered has halved. situations and simulated setts to work out how to get There is no magic bullet and no single policy that can gas to go through a sett. The concern is not the gas change the situation dramatically. Vaccination of badgers itself, but the ability to deploy it throughout a sett. I and cattle has a role; wildlife control has a role; dealing assure the hon. Lady that that is the sort of research with the reservoir of TB in wildlife has a role; and that was alluded to in the strategy. There is nothing new routine testing, movement controls and better biosecurity about it; it was in our published strategy in July. all have a role. But none of them alone is the entire solution. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Will the Minister give way? Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): Part of the trial is taking place in my constituency. My first George Eustice: I want to make some progress or I ministerial meeting when I was elected 16 years ago was will not get to the points raised by my hon. Friend the with Jeff Rooker on this very subject, and only now Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale. is any meaningful action taking place. The Minister is Laboratory studies have demonstrated that vaccinating absolutely right to say that a whole range of measures is badgers with BCG can reduce the risk of infection and needed to counter the disease, but it has been increasing transmission of the disease. A four-year safety field and farmers have been suffering. We must get a grip study of wild badgers showed a statistically significant on it. indirect protective effect in unvaccinated cubs born into vaccinated social groups, but vaccinating a large enough George Eustice: I agree with my hon. Friend. I have proportion of badgers to reduce transmission of disease painted a picture of how bleak the matter is. The disease and bring about a reduction of TB in cattle would take is spreading and we cannot ignore it any more; we must time to achieve and be costly to deliver, at between take action. £2,000 and £4,000 per sq km per year. Returning to vaccination, which is the subject of In practice, it is inevitable that not all badgers in an the debate, I think it is worth noting that successive area will be trapped and vaccinated. There is no evidence Governments have invested more than £43 million on that vaccination protects already-infected badgers, and vaccine research and development since 1994. The coalition there is a risk that badgers from neighbouring unvaccinated Government will have spent at least a further £15 million. areas may act as a constant source of infection. Nevertheless, I say “at least” because the figure excludes what is likely computer modelling indicates that sustained badger to be sizeable expenditure on the necessary work on cattle vaccination campaigns could be beneficial in lowering vaccine field trials. TB incidence in cattle, but quantifying that contribution is likely to need a large-scale field trial, and it would Tracey Crouch: Is my hon. Friend aware that the take some years to collect the results. response to a recent freedom of information request on 22 September shows a significant reduction in the amount David Morris: I would like to put it on the record that of departmental investment in the oral vaccine particularly, should what I am proposing come together, I would like but also in all other research into injectable vaccine and my constituency to be its first trial area. cattle vaccines? Spending on the oral vaccine will fall from around £2.5 million to £312,000 in 2015. Should George Eustice: That has been noted, and we will that not be dealt with “drekly”, as the Cornish might take it on board—[Interruption.] I do not want all hon. say? Members asking for their constituencies to be a trial area. Vaccination is a potential additional tool to reduce George Eustice: It seems that the word “drekly” is geographical spread of the disease, particularly on the catching on in the House. I will deal with oral vaccination edge of areas. My hon. Friend’s constituency is in not later. Right now, only the injectable BCG is available to an edge area, but a low-risk area. tackle bovine TB and it does not fully guarantee protection. Vaccination could complement badger culling by Some animals will be fully protected, some will benefit providing a buffer to limit the impact of perturbation. from a reduction in the disease, but some will get It may also form part of an exit strategy from culling—for 313WH Badger Vaccines16 OCTOBER 2013 Badger Vaccines 314WH example, by vaccinating remaining badgers with the for Morecambe and Lunesdale, we are keen to work aim of establishing herd immunity in previously culled with all those groups, including voluntary groups, who areas. would like to participate, and to work out how we can get them engaged in that. Albert Owen: I welcome the Minister to his place on I also intend to discuss a plan that the hon. Member the Front Bench. Will he assure the Chamber that his for St Ives (Andrew George) has on the issue—I have Department is working with the Welsh Government so promised to meet him and Rosie Woodroffe. The that we can have some data on their trials, share information Department has made a modest commitment to support and eradicate the problem in the whole United Kingdom? some vaccination in that regard and he has some ideas; His responsibility covers only England, but such we are keen to pursue that option and look at it. co-operation would help both England and Wales. Andrew George: I put on the record my gratitude to George Eustice: We are keen to learn lessons from DEFRA for the initial funding of the pilot, which is around the country and around the world, so we are proceeding this week. The intention is to cover the looking at the work going on in Wales. I have to say that whole 200 square miles of the Land’s End peninsula, it is not that encouraging at the moment; a vaccination-only and we are increasingly gathering the co-operation of strategy is not seen to be working particularly well, but farmers in the area. we will study the results closely. I am also interested in following what is going on in Northern Ireland, where George Eustice: I know that, and I look forward to they are trapping and then vaccinating badgers that discussing the matter further when I meet the hon. they believe are not infected and culling those that are. Gentleman. The training scheme has become more We are also keen to learn lessons from countries such as popular since, as part of the DEFRA-funded badger Australia, which has pursued policies similar to ours. vaccination fund, we have offered grants of 50% to voluntary and community sector volunteers to train as Ian Paisley: I welcome the Minister to his new role. lay vaccinators. That is another area that we would like With regards to the vaccine for cattle and cows, which to look at. he touched on at the beginning—the hon. Member for Finally, I want to say a few words about our work on Morecambe and Lunesdale also asked about this issue—will developing an oral badger vaccine. A badger vaccine the Minister take the opportunity to make it abundantly could be administered orally through baits. It would be clear that if a vaccine is given to a cow, it makes the cow more practical and potentially cheaper, which is why test positive? That makes it indistinguishable from an DEFRA continues to fund that. It is not true, as my affected beast when it is tested, which leads to one hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford conclusion: the cow is slaughtered. We have to get away (Tracey Crouch) said, that we have cut expenditure on from pursuing the idea that there is some sort of magic that. We are, as I say, still spending about £4 million a bullet, or magic pill, that can be used to vaccinate a cow year in total on developing cattle and badger vaccines. and not lead to its being slaughtered. There are things that we would need to resolve when George Eustice: I do not want to get drawn too far it comes to the development of an oral vaccine. We would into cattle vaccination, but the hon. Gentleman is right need to work on the safety and effectiveness of the that we need to perfect the so-called DIVA test that vaccine formulation and make sure that we can deploy differentiates between the two. It is clear that it will take the bait to attract the maximum number of badgers. some time. The European Commission has put a time One of the problems is that badgers will not take the frame of 10 years on getting to that stage. I would like bait that is used, so it is important to have the right bait. that to be quicker, but we have to be realistic—there is a Another problem can be that one badger might eat lot to be done. all the bait and another badger might not get any, so I come back to supporting badger vaccination. DEFRA there are challenges. We also have to deal with the operates a badger vaccination fund; in the current year, potential impact and safety for other wildlife. There is that has prioritised support for vaccination in the “edge still further work to do, but we are committed to taking area”. The fund offers start-up grants of 50% to fund it forward, and we are clear that that ongoing work will the first year of vaccinations. Having said that, it is true play a role in our strategy. to say that applications this year have been a bit disappointing. We are now looking to understand precisely 5.14 pm why that is, so that we can get it right next year. Coming Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order back to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member No.10(11)).

57WS Written Statements16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 58WS Written Statements Protecting tenants from rogue landlords Tenants must feel able to raise concerns or complaints with their landlords about the homes that they live in, Wednesday 16 October 2013 and they must be able to do this without fear of eviction. We will also work with local councils to share best practice on the prosecution of landlords for housing offences. This will make clear the importance that local COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT authorities demonstrate that such offences have a real impact on the lives of tenants. Cutting costs for tenants Private Rented Sector A Tenants’ Charter, published today in draft, will tell tenants what their rights are, what to expect and what to ask for and what to do if they have any problems. This The Secretary of State for Communities and Local will explain the flexibility which exists to enable tenants Government (Mr Eric Pickles): The private rented market to ask for longer tenancies and promote awareness is a vital asset to this country. It is an important option among tenants of what to expect, including on the for the millions of people who prefer the flexibility that transparency of lettings agents’ fees. Greater transparency renting offers, or who are simply saving up for a deposit will help stop unreasonable practices and unfair charges so they can buy a place of their own. The coalition by letting agents, and would-be tenants will know the Government are delivering a series of policies to promote full costs before they sign up to any contract. home ownership and affordable housing. But we recognise We will also develop a model tenancy agreement, by there is more to do to support a vibrant private rented early 2014, which will simply and more clearly set out sector. the rights and responsibilities of tenants and landlords I am therefore today announcing a package of further alike and help tenants to understand which clauses measures to help millions of hard-working tenants get a should be in every agreement, which are optional but better deal when they rent a home. These measures will standard and which are unique to that property. We give tenants the know-how to demand longer-term have already directly encouraged those bidding in the tenancies, stable rents, better quality accommodation, second round of the Build to Rent fund to support avoid hidden fees when renting a home and demand longer-term tenancies. better standards. We will shortly lay before Parliament the secondary Equally, we recognise the need for proportionate legislation setting out the conditions compulsory redress regulation. Excessive red tape—such as compulsory schemes must meet. All letting and management agents landlord registration fees or rent controls—would reduce will be required to belong to such a scheme. This will investment, restrict choice for tenants and ultimately ensure that complaints about their service can be drive up costs for tenants. investigated by an independent person. A complaint We also recognise the need to support the vast majority could be made where the agent had not made clear what of law-abiding, decent landlords in managing their fees would be charged and, where a complaint was properties and ensure they are protected when tenants upheld, the redress scheme could require the agent to intentionally do not pay rent or damage their property. pay compensation to the tenant. At the same time, action should be taken against the Supporting good landlords small number of rogue landlords to stop tenants being We know that the majority of landlords in the private ripped off when they rent a flat or house and ensure rented sector are good landlords who have excellent tenants have the confidence to take action without fear relationships with their tenants and who maintain their of eviction or harassment. properties. We want to ensure that all tenants have this Ensuring high-quality accommodation same level of service and the same standard of property. I have set out today that we will develop a code of We also know that there are some bad tenants out there; practice on the management of property, in the private we will work with landlords to identify any improvements rented sector. This code of practice will set out what that can be made to the eviction process, so that the landlords, letting agents and property managers should law-abiding landlords have confidence that they can get do when providing tenants with homes to live in. It will their property back if a tenant stops paying the rent and make clear that it is their responsibility to maintain the which will provide them with more confidence to offer property to an acceptable standard to prevent tenants longer tenancies. having to pay for repairs out of their own pockets. We recognise that many buy-to-let landlords will be Tenants have a right to live in homes that are safe and prevented from offering longer tenancies because of well maintained. We will undertake a review into how restrictions in their mortgage. We will be holding a we can ensure tenants are satisfied that their homes are mortgage lenders summit to identify the barriers to safe and healthy and what standards of hygiene and lenders agreeing to longer tenancies and consider how sanitation they can expect and how they will be protected lenders can make it easier for landlords to offer longer from damp or excess cold. We will consider the scope tenancies that benefit families. for requiring landlords to repay rent where a property is Increasing the supply of rented housing found to have serious hazards. This will include considering Increasing the supply of housing will provide more extending local authorities’ ability to recoup housing choice for tenants and more competition between landlords, benefit through rent repayment orders, so that taxpayers’ which will in turn deliver longer tenancies, stable rents, money is not used to support landlords who provide more professional landlords and better properties for sub-standard property. people to live in. 59WS Written Statements16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 60WS

This is why we have introduced the £1 billion Build to Introduction—Africa Rent fund, and we are offering up to £10 billion in We expect Baroness Ashton to raise Africa during housing guarantees, to bring more developers into the her introductory remarks, focusing on: Kenya, including market, and build homes specifically for private rent. the recent terrorist attack at the Westgate shopping mall These will be high-quality developments that will drive in Nairobi; Somalia, highlighting the importance of up standards in all areas of the sector. To ensure delivery, maintaining the support to AMISOM in the fight against quality and affordability, we have appointed a specialist al-Shabaab; and the Central African Republic where private rented sector taskforce precisely to promote Ministers will agree Council conclusions that highlight these two schemes to the wider industry. We are also the continuing poor security and humanitarian situation. encouraging local authorities to promote purpose-built rental schemes on their land holdings and via the planning Introduction—EU-China summit system. Baroness Ashton will provide an update on preparations We are supporting hard-working tenants while ensuring for upcoming high-level meetings, including the EU-China that good landlords are not penalised by the introduction summit, which is scheduled for 21-22 November. “Green of unnecessary red tape and rooting out the rogue growth in a safer world” is the overall headline, with landlords and letting agents that all too often give the prosperity, security and sustainable development as sector a bad name. supporting themes. We do not expect a discussion. I would like to thank the my hon. Friend the Member Eastern Partnership for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) for his assistance The Eastern Partnership discussion will focus on the on this policy development in his capacity as a member preparations for the Vilnius summit and Ukraine’s progress of the No. 10 policy board. against the December 2012 FAC conclusions. The UK Copies of the associated documents are being placed is a firm supporter of Ukraine’s EU aspirations, and in the Library. My Department is also publishing today has made clear that progress towards a closer relationship the Government’s formal response to the Communities with the EU requires Ukraine to demonstrate its and Local Government Select Committee’s report on commitment to EU principles including the rule of law. “The Private Rented Sector”. Ukraine is an important EU neighbour and a closer relationship between Ukraine and the EU will benefit both parties economically and in terms of European FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE security. Ministers may also discuss how the EU should respond to recent Russian pressure on eastern partners in advance of the Vilnius summit. The UK is clear that Foreign Affairs and General Affairs Councils a closer relationship with the EU will bring clear benefits to eastern partners, through improved trade opportunities, business environment, and rule of law, and that this is in The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My Russia’s long-term interests as well as the EU’s. right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Southern neighbourhood Commonwealth Affairs will attend the Foreign Affairs Council (FAC) on 21 October, and I will attend the On Syria, we will continue to encourage convening of General Affairs Council (GAC) on 22 October. The the Geneva II talks for a political settlement in Syria by FAC will be chaired by the High Representative of the mid-November, including by supporting the moderate European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, opposition. We will encourage the EU to contribute Baroness Ashton of Upholland, and the GAC will be additional funding for humanitarian aid and the mission chaired by the Lithuanian presidency. The meetings will of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical be held in Luxembourg. Weapons to destroy Syria’s chemical weapons programme. Introduction—middle east peace process We will encourage member states to do all they can to support September’s UN Security Council resolution Baroness Ashton will outline progress on the middle on destroying Syria’s chemical weapons programme east peace process, including on the EU settlement and presidential statement on increased humanitarian guidelines. We do not expect discussion, but if it ensues access in Syria. we will reaffirm our support for the negotiation process, our continued support for the economic track and our On Egypt, Baroness Ashton will brief Ministers on position on the EU settlement guidelines, as necessary. her visit to Cairo in early October where she met with a wide range of interlocutors. Ministers will also discuss Introduction—Iran the EU’s internal review of assistance to Egypt. The Baroness Ashton is expected to report back to the UK remains committed to supporting Egypt in its Foreign Affairs Council on the E3+3 talks with Iran political transition, and to supporting the strengthening taking place 15-16 October in Geneva. No discussion is of democratic institutions. There will be conclusions expected. on Egypt. Introduction—Serbia-Kosovo Burma Baroness Ashton is likely to update Ministers on the EU-facilitated Serbia/Kosovo dialogue. We welcome There will be a short discussion of Burma at the Baroness Ashton’s leadership on this and welcome the FAC, before Foreign Ministers join Aung San Suu Kyi progress made, including on agreements on energy and for lunch, who is visiting Luxembourg and the European telecoms. Implementation of dialogue agreements by Parliament in Strasbourg. both sides needs to continue and there is more to do The lunch with Aung San Suu Kyi will be an opportunity more on integration of police and justice structures in to hear her views on the reform process in Burma and north Kosovo. The smooth passage of municipal elections discuss her priorities as we move closer to national in Kosovo in November will be important. elections in 2015. 61WS Written Statements16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 62WS

GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL Council. This particular discussion will focus on the The 22 October GAC will focus on the preparation lessons learned in 2013 in preparation for the European for the 24-25 October European Council, the next stage semester in 2014. of the European semester, macro-regional strategies Enlargement—Turkey and possibly enlargement. Though not yet finally confirmed the GAC may Preparation of the 24-25 October European Council discuss Turkish accession, particularly regarding the The GAC will prepare the 24-25 October European formal opening of “Chapter 22—Regional policy and Council. This European Council has an extensive agenda coordination of structural instruments” at an inter- covering: the digital economy, innovation and services; governmental conference this autumn. growth, competitiveness and jobs; economic and monetary Macro-regional strategies union; the Eastern Partnership summit; and migration There are two main macro-regional strategies currently issues, following the tragedy in Lampedusa. in existence, the Baltic sea strategy and the Danube It is very positive that the October European Council strategy. There are proposals for other strategies including has such a strong focus on areas that have the potential for the Adriatic-Ionian region. These macro-regional to promote growth. We have consistently pressed for strategies are comprehensive frameworks for member action to deliver on many of the areas that will be state co-operation that have covered a wide range of discussed at this European Council. policy areas from maritime issues to the cross-border delivery of structural and cohesion funded projects and I will be arguing for the need for the European are generally endorsed by the European Council. Council to prioritise areas where it could go further, The draft conclusions on macro-regional strategies such as on the services sector where we would like to see reiterate that they should require no new money (though more ambition in the proposals; completing the digital structural and cohesion funds already allocated to those single market by 2015; and continuing the Prime Minister’s regions can be channelled towards projects complementing drive for the EU to reduce burdensome regulation for the macro-regional strategies); no new institutions and business. However I will also be arguing the need to get no new legislation. The conclusions do not propose the details right on issues such as telecoms, where there establishing any new macro-regional strategies but set are complex proposals. out preconditions that would help make such strategies European semester effective. The GAC will also discuss the European semester, The discussion at the GAC will look at how the which gives macro-economic and fiscal guidance to existing macro-regional strategies are adding value and member states, assessing implementation of the compact lessons learnt from them and the alpine strategy has for growth and jobs agreed by the June 2012 European been added to the agenda as an “AOB” item.

7P Petitions16 OCTOBER 2013 Petitions 8P

Noted that civil servants who do this are skilled and Petitions experienced, trained and managed, enthusiastic, enjoy what they do and work as a team. Wednesday 16 October 2013 Noted that the restriction of access to and the denial of food was a tactic used in the Malayan counterinsurgency. Noted that for adults to use starvation as a weapon PRESENTED PETITION against children is a criminal offence. Noted that the petitioner is fortunate that he can read Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor and write. Noted that the House of Commons asks that requests The Right to Silence (DWP) made in a petition to the House be addressed to the ‘government’, however a distinction has to be drawn The Petition of Mr Martin Burke of Elizabeth Regina between elected Members of the House of Commons Love, and civil servants. Declares that the Petitioner made a petition to the Declares that the reply from the Secretary of State for House of Commons on 4 December 2012 entitled ‘The Work and Pensions and member for Chingford, Rt. Hon. Right to Silence’ and the Secretary of State for Work Iain Duncan Smith, is misleading. and Pensions replied on 7 January 2013 and that the reply is misleading. (Further declares that this petition Declares that the ‘legislation’ by which civil servants is in effect a continuation of the original petition, a in the DWP are “bound”(sic) referred to in the reply are public response to that 7 January 2013 reply.) mostly regulations drawn up by the civil servants in the DWP department, as well as policies about how the Act In the petition on 4 December 2012 the petitioner is to be interpreted and what is acceptable. noted that voters have their benefits stopped for not telling civil servants details about meetings with their Further declares that the Secretary of State’s reply Member of Parliament and that as punishment benefits gives the impression that DWP can do nothing about are stopped with no regard to the means to buy food. injuring people and repeats that ‘no money for food’ and stress are used as weapons, life-threatening actions. Noted that Civil Servants are fully aware of the health consequences and that it threatens people’s lives Further declares that the Secretary of State’s reply and are acting to cause harm. Noted that they understand evades the issue and implicitly admits that when JSA is the consequences and it is done with the intent to cause refused some people will not get hardship payments harm, injury that may kill. Notes that the petition listed (applied for after the fact and requiring ‘guilt’ to be the names of participant members of the Department disproved). Notes from the Secretary of State’s response for Work and Pensions (DWP). that often only one instance is needed for a noticeable Noted that questioning by Civil Servants in job centres effect. is conducted under conditions of deliberate stress; the Further declares that there is a DWP document that use of shouting, with members of the public unknown admits that there may be health consequences. Further to the interviewee sat just behind; numerous interviews declares that these are physical punishments no less at irregular intervals over a long period of time; than the use of asphyxiation or drugs (inflicting bodily prolongation of the duration of meetings (“as long as it harm). takes”). Further declares that the reply gives the impression Noted that other small stresses are designed to have a that Jobcentre civil servants are immune from the cumulative effect: staff entering personal space; consequences of these actions or have no choice, and uncomfortable chairs; unable to sit under the desk fully; that this is what the Department wants them to do (and sitting with the back to a busy room looking either play a game of chance with someone who has an at the interviewer directly or the wall; conversation undiagnosed medical condition). interruptions; the use of two interviewers and different interviewers; forced to sit close next to and face to face Further declares that an impression of independence opposite strangers in the waiting areas; deliberately is given (impartial DWP decision makers) whereas these keeping people waiting; disclosure of personal information decision makers, in loco Secretary of State, are DWP in public; the giving of wrong and misleading information; employees sat usually in other DWI offices, removing unreasonableness (“I ask the questions”); telephone weeks of benefits. calls to ‘Decision Makers’; deliberate delay in replying Further declares that following the petition on to correspondence. Notes in addition background noise 4 December 2012 and the reply on 7 January 2013 there (white); the use of weekly and daily signings, creating was correspondence with Secretary of State for Work distractions in peripheral vision. and Pensions, and notes also that the Permanent Secretary Noted that these stresses are under the general threat of the DWP is Mr Robert Devereux. of loss of benefit when there is little money for food, nor money for heating in winter, and that these actions Further declares again that those listed in Early are designed to condition a person into signing one-sided Day Motion 454 Fatalities in Afghanistan (No. 11) contracts. (EDM 454) (whose names are not listed here), (in the order listed in the EDM 454), soldiers from the Noted that the life-threatening health consequences 2nd Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, of stress are known. 6th Battalion The Rifles, 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, Noted that interviewees do not consent to this treatment. 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards, 36 Engineer Regiment, 9P Petitions16 OCTOBER 2013 Petitions 10P

The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion The Royal OBSERVATIONS Regiment of Scotland, 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, 3rd Battalion The Rifles, 4th Battalion The CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Rifles, 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment, Royal Logistics Corps, 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment, Skateboarding Southbank 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal), The Humble Petition of users and fans of the Undercroft and countless others who gave their lives in previous skateboard area, conflicts including the Second World War and the First Sheweth, World War; gave their lives so that people would not be That it has been the home to British skaters and treated this way. riders for over 40 years but is threatened by development. Declares that what is being done to people in the job Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable centres is also being done to these who gave their lives. House take all steps to urge the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to ensure that the Southbank Centre Further declares that even the most errant soldier put preserves this facility in its development plans. in the Scots Guards’ guardroom would not be treated And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever this way. pray, &c.—[Presented by Kate Hoey, Official Report, Declares again that this officer is asking that it be 26 June 2013; Vol. 565, c. 428.] stopped. [P001189] Observations from the Secretary of State for Culture, Declares that the petitioner asks if the Secretary of Media and Sport: State discussed the petition with the department civil The Government acknowledge the vibrant addition servants and if he signed the response. that the skateboarders of the Undercroft have brought Notes that the Secretary of State appears to hold the to the South Bank Centre (SBC) for many years. lives of voters in job centres cheaply, and doesn’t mind a The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, few people dying. my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), is aware that a planning application has Notes again that the people who are being mistreated, been submitted for the refurbishment of the Queen with skill by people who know what they are doing, are Elizabeth Hall, Purcell Room and Hayward Gallery voters. complex. These plans would significantly enhance the amount of space available for arts and education and The petitioner therefore asks again the House of deliver badly needed refurbishment of these important Commons to make a law so that when a constituent has cultural venues, as well as the public realm in parts of any business with their elected Member of Parliament the site. they are given explicitly the right to silence without punishment when questioned by civil servants. Decisions about the future of the Undercroft and the skateboarding community within the SBC estate are The petitioner asks again that this mistreatment voters matters for the local authority and the SBC in consultation are being subjected to by civil servants described in this with the community. and the preceding petition, be stopped. The SBC was working towards the scheme design and planning stage for its redevelopment, which it reached Further asks again that members of the House of last month. The planning application was due to be Commons ensure that the people, who include their heard by Lambeth in September as well, but the Southbank constituents, are always fed properly, with dignity. Board has asked for the application to be put on hold as The petitioner therefore repeats the requests of the it would like more time to listen and respond to the petition on 4 December 2012 that the House of Commons most recent set of objections, and to ensure that the consider the matter of the Right to Silence and that plans reflect the needs of as many of the wide range of were the questions put the House consent to what is stakeholder groups as possible. This has been agreed by asked in this petition first posted to the House on Lambeth Council. 28 June 2013, and formalised on 29 August 2013. This Government welcome an approach that allows time both for users of the South Bank to be consulted And the Petitioner remains, etc.—[Presented by and for the SBC to work with these groups to find the Sir Gerald Kaufman.] [P001231] best way of balancing everyone’s needs. 721W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 722W

Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Written Answers to what meetings his Department has had with the (a) British Bankers Association, (b) Council of Mortgage Questions Lenders and (c) Association of British Insurers on compensation and blight related matters prior to the launch of the recent consultation on compensation Wednesday 16 October 2013 relating to High Speed 2. [171078]

Mr Goodwill: Department for Transport and HS2 Ltd officials meet the Council of Mortgage Lenders as TRANSPORT part of a multilateral group of interested organisations, and those meetings have included discussion of the emerging proposals. No meetings on this subject have High Speed 2 Railway Line been held with the British Bankers Association or the Association of British Insurers. Michael Fabricant: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will estimate the cost of constructing Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport High Speed 2 adjacent to existing transport corridors what proportion of the cost of constructing High Speed 2 and not tunnelling the route. [170669] is intended to be used for compensation for (a) private households and (b) businesses on the route of Phase 1 Mr Goodwill: HS2 Ltd published a review of route of High Speed 2 up until the beginning of train services alignments for HS2 Phase One in January 2012, in on that route. [171079] particular reviewing the case for an alignment in the Chiltern Line and M40 corridors and an alignment in Mr Goodwill: It is not possible to provide this information the M1 corridor. These were found to cost £3 billion in the form requested. We do not expect to be able to and £2.2 billion more than the consultation route estimate the costs of purchasing land from owner-occupiers respectively. Neither route could be built to the same to this level of detail until we have concluded the design speed as HS2 with both options therefore producing current consultation and decided our approach to fewer economic benefits than the consultation route. discretionary compensation, and we do not expect to be The route for Phase Two is currently the subject of a able to estimate the costs of compensation for businesses public consultation. On the eastern leg a significant to this level of detail until after the passage of the proportion of the route runs in existing transport corridors proposed Hybrid Bill. (the M42 and the M1). The options report published by HS2 Ltd reviewed a short listed alternative alignment in Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport the M6 corridor rather than the WCML corridor that is how many households will experience a diminution in the subject of the consultation. value of their property due to the proximity of High Speed 2. [171086] Alec Shelbrooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether High Speed 2 will be used for freight. Mr Goodwill: We do not hold this data. It would be [170678] impossible to construct such a forecast because the predicted effect of the railway in a given location is only Mr Goodwill: The new HS2 infrastructure is expected one factor that influences confidence in the housing to be built to accommodate the larger ‘GC’ gauge trains market. We are currently consulting on discretionary associated with high speed railways so it may be technically purchase schemes to enable those most affected by possible for high speed freight trains such as the CAREX generalised blight to sell their homes to the Government air freight trains to operate over HS2 subject to capacity at unblighted values through purchase schemes or via a on the line to accommodate such trains. property bond. The HS2 scheme design does not make provision for any associated rail freight facilities. Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many households are within (a) one Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport mile of the line and (b) 250 metres of a tunnel for (i) what maximum reduction in value of a property negatively Phase 1 and (ii) Phase 2 of the proposed route for High affected by High Speed 2 his Department considers Speed 2. [171087] acceptable. [171077] Mr Goodwill: The information is in the following Mr Goodwill: The market value of buildings scheduled tables: for demolition in order to build HS2 will be greatly Properties within one mile of the line when it runs on the surface: reduced. Owners of those buildings will be entitled to Route Number compensation according to the terms of the Compensation Code. The Government is currently consulting on proposed Phase 1 211,388 discretionary policies to provide further support to Phase 2 281,666 property owners around the HS2 Phase One route. One Properties within 250 metres of the line when it runs in tunnel: of the aims of those proposals is to encourage normal Route Number local property market conditions where possible. We will consider respondents’ views before taking final Phase 1 28,747 decisions. Phase 2 17,718 723W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 724W

Notes: Convention On the Protection of the European 1. These figures show numbers of residential properties as a proxy for Communities’ Financial Interests households. 2. Numbers are estimates obtained from Ordnance Survey data combined with Royal Mail data based on properties with a postal Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Chancellor of the delivery address. Exchequer (1) how the requirements of the Convention 3. Numbers for Phase 2 refer to the alignment used in the current Line on the protection of the European Communities’ financial of Route consultation. interests are implemented in the UK; and whether the 4. Some properties in the Euston/HS1 Link areas will be counted in Government intends to retain these implementing measures both tables. unchanged assuming that the UK ceases to be bound Parking: Fines by the Convention under Article 10 of the Protocol on Transitional Provisions Annexed to the EU treaties; Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for [170970] Transport whether he has made a decision on the application (2) in how many cases in the UK in each of the last by the Local Government Association to raise the level five years instruments, proceeds or property of equivalent of parking fines outside London to the same levels as value to proceeds of the acts, the UK is required to inside the capital. [171100] criminalise under the Convention on the protection of the European Communities’ financial interests and its Mr Goodwill: No decision has yet been taken. This Protocols were seized or confiscated; and what the matter remains under consideration. value was of such instruments, proceeds or other property in each case; [170999] (3) how the First Protocol to the Convention on the TREASURY protection of the European Communities’ financial interests in the UK is implemented; and whether the Banks: Pay Government intends to retain these implementing measures unchanged assuming that the UK ceases to be bound Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the by the Protocol under Article 10 of the Protocol on Exchequer if he will make a statement on HM Treasury’s Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU treaties; approval of bonuses paid to employees of Lloyds Banking [171002] Group and the Royal Bank of Scotland. [170264] (4) which requirements of the First Protocol to the Convention on the protection of the European Nicky Morgan: HM Treasury does not approve the Communities’ financial interests have not been implemented bonuses of employees at Lloyds Banking Group (LBG) in the UK; [171003] and the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS). This is a (5) which requirements of the Convention on the decision for the banks’ Remuneration Committees. protection of the European Communities’ financial The Government’s investments in RBS and LBG are interests are not implemented; [171004] managed by UK Financial Investments (UKFI) on an (6) which of the requirements of the Second Protocol arm’s length and commercial basis. to the Convention on the protection of European UKFI engages with the Remuneration Committees Communities’ financial interests have not been implemented of both banks to assess whether reasonable judgment in in the UK; [171007] relation to their approach to directors’ remuneration (7) how the requirements of the Second Protocol to has been exercised in line with UKFI’s objective of the Convention on the protection of the European protecting and creating value for the taxpayer. Communities’ financial interests are implemented in The Government has been clear that banks must act the UK; and whether the Government intends to retain responsibly in setting their bonuses. these implementing measures unchanged assuming that the UK ceases to be bound by the Protocol under Bonus pools at almost all major UK banks declined Article 10 of the Protocol on Transitional Provisions during the last bonus round, with an even more significant annexed to the EU treaties; [171008] decline when compared to 2010: for example, the bonus pool at Royal Bank of Scotland’s investment bank was (8) in how many cases in each of the last five years 20% lower this year than last year, and almost 70% UK authorities co-operated with authorities of lower than 2010. Overall bonus pools in the financial another EU Member State due to the provisions of sector have also declined significantly: the Centre for Article 6(2) of the Convention on the protection of the Economics and Business Research has estimated that European Communities’ financial interests, including this year’s City bonuses will be less than half of what Article 6(2) as it is extended by the First Protocol and was paid out last year and 85% lower than was paid out Second Protocol to the Convention; and what the in 2007. substance and outcome of the co-operation was in each case; [171009] Carbon Emissions (9) whether the Government intends to maintain unchanged the co-operation required by Article 6 of David T. C. Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the the Convention on the protection of the European Exchequer how much his Department spent on the Communities’ financial interests, including Article 6 as Government Carbon Offsetting Framework in the latest it is extended by the First Protocol and Second year for which figures are available. [169894] Protocol to the Convention, assuming that the UK ceases to be bound by the Convention under Article 10 Nicky Morgan: HM Treasury did not make any payment of the Protocol on Transitional Provisions annexed to via the Government Carbon Offsetting Framework in the EU treaties; and what assessment he has made of the latest year for which figures are available (2012-13). whether that co-operation will continue; [171031] 725W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 726W

(10) in how many cases Article 6 of the Second Electronic Surveillance: Exports Protocol to the Convention on the protection of the European Communities’ financial interests has enabled Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer or required co-operation between the UK and one or what discussions Ministers or officials of his Department more other EU member states that would not have had with their EU counterparts on the unlicensed otherwise have occurred in each of the last five years; export of Finfisher intrusion software from the UK. [171172] [171073] (11) in how many cases authorities in the UK have (a) provided and (b) received information as a result Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) of Article 7(2) of the Second Protocol to the works under a strict rule of confidentiality in its dealings Convention on the protection of the European with individuals and businesses, and I can neither confirm Communities’ financial interests in each of the last five nor deny that any of its officials have had discussions years; what the cost to UK public funds has been of with their EU counterparts on this matter. such an information exchange; what assessment he has made of the usefulness of this information exchange Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the fight against the offences in question; whether whether HM Revenue and Customs is conducting an the Government intends to maintain this information investigation into the unlicensed export of Finfisher exchange unchanged if the UK ceases to be bound by intrusion software from a UK company to countries the Second Protocol pursuant to Article 10 of the outside the EU. [171097] Protocol on Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU treaties; and how the Government intends to maintain Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) this information exchange in future; [171209] works under a strict rule of confidentiality in its dealings with individuals and businesses, and I can neither confirm (12) what specific actions have been undertaken (a) nor deny that HMRC is conducting an investigation by and (b) in relation to the UK as a result of Article into this matter. 7(1) of the Second Protocol to the Convention on the protection of the European Communities’ financial Energy: Prices interests in the last five years; what the frequency of such actions has been; what the cost to UK public David T. C. Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the funds has been of such co-operation; what assessment Exchequer what steps he plans to take to reduce the he has made of the usefulness of this co-operation for effects of decarbonisation policies on domestic fuel the fight against the offences in question; whether the bills. [170283] Government intends to maintain this co-operation unchanged if the UK ceases to be bound by the Second Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf Protocol pursuant to Article 10 of the Protocol on of the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU treaties; The policies that we are putting in place to improve and how the Government intends to maintain this energy efficiency will, on average, more than offset the co-operation in future; [171210] costs of policies supporting low carbon generation and (13) in how many cases in each of the last five years energy efficiency investment—which currently comprise UK authorities co-operated with the authorities of only around 9% of the average consumer’s energy bill. another EU Member State due to the provisions of The main driver behind energy bill rises is wholesale Article 6(1) of the Convention on the protection of the energy costs—between 2010 and 2012 they have caused European Communities’ financial interests, including at least 60% of the increase in household bills. Article 6(1) as it is extended by the Frist Protocol and Second Protocol to the Convention; and what the We have recently published a detailed report on the substance and outcome of the co-operation was in each impact of policies on energy prices and bills, which is case. [171029] accessible at: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/172923/130326_- Nicky Morgan: The UK is compliant with all the _Price_and_Bill_Impacts_Report_Final.pdf requirements of the Convention, First Protocol and Second Protocol on the protection of the European Financial Services: Pay Communities’ financial interests via the Theft Act 1968, Criminal Justice Act 1993, the Proceeds of Crime Act Emily Thornberry: To ask the Chancellor of the 2002, Fraud Act 2006, and the Bribery Act of 2010. The Exchequer what estimate he has made of the cost to the Government has no plans to repeal this legislation and public purse of all legal challenges by the Government cooperation will continue as it does under current practice. to plans to introduce a cap on bonuses paid to workers The Government does not hold data relating specifically in the financial services sector. [170315] to the protection of the European Communities’ financial interests. However, the Commission’s estimates of Mr Gauke [holding answer 10 October 2013]: The irregularities reported as fraudulent in their latest Fight Government launched a legal challenge to the bonus Against Fraud report can be found here: cap and related provisions in the EU capital requirements http://ec.europa.eu/anti_fraud/about-us/reports/communities- directive 4, and capital requirements regulation in September reports/index_en.htm 2013. Costs are expected to be in line with the information and the European Anti-Fraud Office Report: presented in the House of Commons EU Scrutiny Committee report (HC671) “Subsidiarity—monitoring http://ec.europa.eu/anti_fraud/about-us/reports/olaf-report/ by national parliaments: challenging a measure before both published online annually. the EU Court of Justice”, in September 2013. 727W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 728W

Means-tested Benefits The Government therefore has no current, plans to introduce further exemptions for individuals in these Andy Sawford: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer circumstances. what assessment his Department has made of the level Tobacco: Smuggling of administration associated with means-tested benefits being claimed by those with variable hours earning from week to week. [169905] Jim Shannon: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps HM Revenue and Customs is taking to Esther McVey: I have been asked to reply on behalf tackle tobacco smuggling in Northern Ireland. [170746] of the Department for Work and Pensions. Nicky Morgan: HM Revenue and Customs’ (HMRC) DWP does not gather information in relation to this strategy to tackle tobacco smuggling includes a wide question. The process to do so is expensive and prone to range of complementary measures. In Northern Ireland, error which is why we are progressively introducing HMRC treats tobacco fraud as one of its top priorities universal credit. This makes use of the Real Time and conducts proactive criminal investigations into Information from HMRC which provides information organised criminal groups involved in tobacco smuggling. on earnings. Working collaboratively with a range of partner agencies in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, Mortgages: Government Assistance HMRC gathers and responds to intelligence concerning tobacco smuggling in order to seize illicit tobacco and, Graham Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer where appropriate, arrest those involved. HMRC uses a whether officials in his Department are monitoring the range of criminal and civil powers to deny and recover average prices of mortgages purchased under the Help the proceeds of crime, and seize vehicles used in the to Buy scheme. [170926] smuggling of tobacco.

Mr Gauke: The Help to Buy: mortgage guarantee scheme is available throughout the UK to potential home owners who can afford repayments on a high COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT LTV mortgage, but are unable to save up for the large Affordable Housing: Cannock Chase deposits currently required in the aftermath of the financial crisis. The Government has made £12 billion of guarantees available, which is sufficient to support Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities £130 billion worth of mortgages across the UK. and Local Government how many new properties have been made available (a) in the affordable rented sector (b) Renewable Energy: Government Assistance and via shared ownership in Cannock Chase constituency in each of the last 15 years; and how many such properties received direct Government support. Mr Binley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer [170913] what the total value of annual (a) direct and (b) indirect subsidy supplied to support UK renewables is. Kris Hopkins: Statistics on additional affordable housing [170010] delivery are not available by constituency but are available by local authority district. Additional intermediate housing Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf (which includes shared ownership properties) provided of the Department of Energy and Climate Change. in Cannock Chase local authority since 1991-92 can be As the Government has explained in its written evidence found in live table 1007 at: to the Environmental Audit Committee (EAC), there is www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tables-on- no single definition of ’subsidy’: affordable-housing-supply http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/ Local figures on additional social rent dwellings can cmselect/cmenvaud/writev/61/energy.pdf also be found at live table 1006. The amount of market support available to levy-funded Affordable rent was introduced in 2011-12; Homes policies supporting low-carbon electricity investment, and Communities Agency statistics show that the first which includes policies supporting UK renewables, has 27 affordable rented properties under this programme been set by the Government at up to £7.6 billion (real were completed in 2012-13 in the Cannock Chase local 2011-12 prices) in 2020. Non-levy funded support must authority area. be provided from within agreed departmental spending The Department’s statistics include additional affordable limits. housing delivered both with and without Government support. Figures for additional affordable housing delivered Tax Allowances: Older People with Government support only are not available at a local authority district level. Christopher Pincher: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has to introduce partial tax Fire Services: Pay exemptions for those of retiring age who choose to carry on working. [170974] Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether he has Nicky Morgan: Individuals who choose to carry on issued guidance to (a) fire brigades and (b) fire working after retirement age currently benefit from an authorities on the awarding of pay rises to senior exemption from employee national insurance contributions. officers since May 2010. [170095] 729W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 730W

Brandon Lewis [holding answer 10 October 2013]: Local Enterprise Partnership Total Awarded (£) Fire and rescue authorities are independent employers and, as such, are responsible for management of their Hertfordshire 16,236,239 own workforces. This includes decisions relating to the Humber 8,762,240 remuneration of senior staff. Ministers have been clear Lancashire 19,378,944 that, in making these local decisions, authorities should Leeds City Region 36,225,183 demonstrate restraint and ensure that senior pay and Leicester and Leicestershire 13,405,370 reward delivers value for money for local taxpayers. Lincolnshire 9,801,076 In addition, the Government has taken steps to increase Liverpool City Region 19,529,710 transparency and accountability of local decisions on New Anglia 18,200,892 senior remuneration. Through the Code of Recommended North Eastern Local Enterprise 25,253,169 Practice of on Local Authority Transparency, the Partnership Government has ensured that all authorities publish Northamptonshire 5,910,558 details of senior salaries. Measures introduced in the Oxfordshire 9,054,428 Localism Act 2011 require authorities to publish annual Pan London 110,761,262 pay policy statements articulating their policies on a Sheffield City Region 18,574,935 range of pay matters, including increases and additions Solent 18,110,320 to the remuneration of senior staff. Such statements South East 49,210,053 must be agreed by full council or a meeting of members South East Midlands 18,759,514 in the case of specific Fire and Rescue Authorities. Stoke and Staffordshire 11,462,668 In preparing their pay policy statements, authorities Swindon and Wiltshire 9,386,900 must have regard to guidance issued by the Secretary of Tees Valley 8,587,013 State. Such guidance was published in February 2012 Thames Valley Berkshire 16,039,518 and February 2013, copies of which are available at: The Marches Enterprise 8,190,847 https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/making-local- Partnership councils-more-transparent-and-accountable-to-local-people/ West of England 17,107,499 supporting-pages/publishing-details-of-local-council-pay-and- Worcestershire 5,518,972 jobs York, North Yorkshire and 9,373,951 In that guidance, the Secretary of State made clear that East Riding full council or a meeting of members should have an England 730,000,004 opportunity to vote on large salary packages and severance payments, particularly those of £100,000 or more. Homelessness: Cornwall Growing Places Fund

Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what proportion Communities and Local Government what funding has of the Growing Places Fund was allocated to each been allocated to Cornwall council to tackle homelessness Local Enterprise Partnership area in each quarter from since May 2010. [170863] November 2011 to September 2013. [170674] Kris Hopkins: Cornwall county unitary authority has Kris Hopkins: The £730 million Growing Places Fund been allocated Homeless Prevention Grant in each of was allocated to Local Enterprise Partnerships in February the following years funding to tackle homelessness: and March 2012. The amount received by each Local Enterprise Partnership is set out in the following table: £

Local Enterprise Partnership Total Awarded (£) 2010-11 516,050 2011-12 792,470 Black Country 14,488,451 2012-13 792,470 Buckinghamshire 6,276,294 2013-14 751,207 Cheshire and Warrington 13,159,667 Coast to Capital 23,699,125 I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly 6,365,681 hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) on 17 Coventry and Warwickshire 12,816,184 June 2013, Official Report, column 506W.A spreadsheet Cumbria 6,667,772 was placed in the Library of the House which shows the Derby, Derbyshire, Nottingham 26,344,104 and Nottinghamshire amount allocated to each English local authority in Homelessness Prevention Grant or its predecessor in Dorset 9,639,201 each of the last five years, and also in 2013-14. Enterprise M3 21,744,341 Gloucestershire 8,498,295 We also provided £165,601 in 2011-12 to help Cornwall Greater Birmingham and 22,494,722 prevent repossessions. The Homelessness Prevention Solihull Grant totals provided are the baseline figures and exclude Greater Cambridge and 16,118,213 funding that has previously been rolled into the grant to Greater Peterborough cover under occupancy and tenancy fraud. Greater Manchester 37,358,032 From 2013-14 the Homelessness Prevention Grant Heart of the SW 21,488,660 has been rolled into the Business Rate Retention scheme. 731W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 732W

Land Drainage Brandon Lewis [holding answer 5 September 2013]: Despite the ongoing savings we are delivering to our Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s administration costs, the DCLG Group’s Communities and Local Government what steps he is overall spend with small and medium sized enterprises taking to encourage householders to offset the effect of for the first four months of 2013-14 has increased from additional surface water run-off and promote the use £19 million to £19.3 million compared to the same of (a) water butts, (b) green roofs and (c) porous period last year. materials for hard surfacing. [170914] While precise figures will fluctuate from month to month, over 25% of our group spending is now with Dan Rogerson: I have been asked to reply on behalf small and medium suppliers, compared with the starting of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural point of 12% in 2010 (based on DCLG central spend). Affairs. This meets the Cabinet Office’s aspiration, for Government Sustainable Drainage Systems (SuDS) can use rainwater Departments to spend 25% with small and medium harvesting, green roofs and porous materials, alongside sized enterprises by the end of this Parliament. We are other methods, to mimic natural drainage. currently the third highest performing Department within DEFRA is implementing schedule 3 of the Flood Whitehall. and Water Management Act which contains requirements The following table sets out the detailed expenditure for SuDS in new and redeveloped sites in England. on small, medium and large organisations from September Building regulations require infiltration to be used except 2012 for my Department and its arm’s length bodies: when impracticable, and allow the use of rainwater harvesting. £ million Householders do not need planning permission to Central Department Arm’s length Total pave-over their front gardens with porous materials. bodies group Those who wish to put down an impermeable surface of expenditure more than five square metres must obtain specific planning Small Small permission. and and Small Medium Large medium Large medium Some water companies offer free water butts to individuals and groups who wish to harvest rainwater. Financial This contributes to meeting water efficiency targets set year 2012-13 by Ofwat. 2012 Private Rented Housing September 1.1 0.8 12.2 4.3 4.5 6.2 October 03 0.5 4.1 4.7 4.1 5.5 Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for November 0.3 0.4 9.2 5.8 5.2 6.5 Communities and Local Government how many people December 0.6 0.5 13.2 4.1 5.5 5.2 lived in private rental accommodation in England in 2013 September (a) 2012 and (b) 2013. [170748] January 0.2 0.4 8.6 5.2 6.8 5.8 February 0.2 0.3 6.5 5.0 7,3 5.5 Kris Hopkins: The Department publishes estimates March 0.4 0.4 21,6 7.5 14.9 8.3 each year on the number of households in the private rented sector in England, through its annual English Financial Housing Survey. The latest report shows 3.8 million year households in the private rented sector in England for 2013-14 2011-12 compared to 3.6 million in 2010-11. The 2013 Department does not produce annual estimates for April 0.2 0.5 7.2 4.5 8.2 5.2 Wales. May 0.1 0.6 4.9 4.5 5.0 5.2 The Office for National Statistics publishes estimates June 0.0 0.5 17.4 4.3 4.3 4.8 from the 2011 Census for the number of households in July 0.2 0.3 12.2 3.6 3.8 4.1 the private rented sector in England and Wales, which are available online in table KS402EW at: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/ index.html Social Security Benefits: EU Nationals Census 2011 estimates for the number of households in the private rented sector are 3.72 million households Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for in England, and 0.18 million households in Wales, as at Communities and Local Government pursuant to the 27 March 2011. answer of 2 September 2013, Official Report, column Procurement 250W,on social security benefits: EU nationals, whether local authorities are obliged to grant access to the new council tax reduction scheme to EU nationals residing Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for in the UK as jobseekers. [168941] Communities and Local Government with reference to the answer of 15 October 2012, Official Report, columns 24-6W,on procurement, what expenditure on procurement Brandon Lewis [holding answer 13 September 2013]: his Department has contracted to (a) small, (b) medium- Local authorities in England are not obliged to grant sized and (c) large businesses in each month since access to a council tax reduction scheme to jobseekers August 2012. [167744] from the European economic area residing in the UK. 733W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 734W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Michael Fallon: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on 13 September 2013, Official Report, columns Aerospace Industry 873-4W, to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois). Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to Foreign Investment in UK enable each region of the UK to export aeronautical expertise and products to developing markets overseas. [170730] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much inward Michael Fallon: UK Trade & Investment (UKTI) foreign direct investment UK Trade and Investment supports companies with a range of services, including and its private sector partners have secured so far this missions and trade fairs which are available to year. [170800] companies throughout the UK, including the devolved Administrations. Working with trade associations in Michael Fallon: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I the sector these missions and trade fairs are strategically gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North planned to match identified opportunities. (Nick de Bois) on 13 September 2013, Official Report, Support in the form of grants and promotional activities column 872W. is available to small and medium-sized enterprises who wish to promote their products or services at aerospace exhibitions overseas through UKTI’s Tradeshow Access Foreign Investment in UK: Greater London Programme (TAP). Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment Tribunals Service Business, Innovation and Skills (1) with which foreign companies, investors, sovereign wealth funds and governments UK Trade and Investment worked to secure Mel Stride: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, inward investment into London during (a) 2011 and Innovation and Skills if he will make an assessment of (b) 2012; [170796] the effect of vexatious employment tribunal claims on the employment intentions of small businesses. [170710] (2) which foreign companies, investors, sovereign wealth funds and/or governments UK Trade and Investment and their private sector partners are currently working Jo Swinson: The Government has made a number of with to secure inward investment into London. [170797] changes recently to the employment tribunal system to address weak or vexatious claims and their effect on all businesses, including smaller companies. Following Lord Michael Fallon: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I Justice Underhill’s review of the employment tribunal gave on 8 October 2013, Official Report, column 270W, rules of procedure, judges now have enhanced powers my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de to apply deposit orders on weak elements of claims. An Bois). initial sift process, conducted by judges, has also been introduced to help identify and manage weak claims Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for earlier in proceedings. In addition, claimants now have Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what the return is to pay a fee to bring an employment tribunal case. Fees on investment that taxpayers in London are getting will help claimants consider whether alternative forms from UK Trade and Investment’s private sector of dispute resolution, such as the free conciliation service partners through the inward investment they attract provided by ACAS, would be more appropriate for into London; [170798] resolving their workplace disputes. From next year, (2) how much inward foreign direct investment did claimants will be required to contact ACAS in the first UK Trade and Investment and its private sector instance and consider early conciliation before being partners attracted into London during (a) the last able to proceed to an employment tribunal. 12 months and (b) the last two years. [170801] The changes to the employment tribunal process were implemented on 29 July this year. Early conciliation Michael Fallon: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I will be introduced on 6 April 2014. Government will gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North assess the effect of these changes on the intentions of all (Nick de Bois) on 13 September 2013, Official Report, parties, including small businesses, before considering column 873W. any further action. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Exports: Greater London Business, Innovation and Skills what the return is on investment taxpayers in London are getting from the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for London UK Trade and Investment office through Business, Innovation and Skills how many small inward investment and exports. [170799] and medium-sized enterprise exporters in London contributed to the Trade Growth Value metric through Michael Fallon: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I reporting receiving significant assistance from UK gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North Trade and Investment during (a) the last 12 months (Nick de Bois) on 13 September 2013, Official Report, and (b) the last two years. [170788] columns 872-73W. 735W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 736W

Local Enterprise Partnerships provision of the universal service is at risk and regulatory tools to ensure that the service is maintained throughout Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the country. Business, Innovation and Skills how many members are Regardless of ownership, Royal Mail, as the UK’s on the board of each local enterprise partnership; how designated universal service provider, will continue to many such members are women; and how many such be required to provide letter deliveries to all UK addresses members are of Black or minority ethnic origin. six days a week in accordance with the statutory obligation [170672] and Standards set by Ofcom.

Michael Fallon: This information is not collected. Royal Mail Local enterprise partnerships (LEPs) have been established as voluntary partnerships of local business and public Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for sector leaders and board membership is a matter for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish a list LEPs themselves. of the new shareholders of Royal Mail. [170732]

Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Michael Fallon: Royal Mail shareholders will be entered Business, Innovation and Skills what the annual spend onto Royal Mail’s register of members. This register of local enterprise partnerships (LEP) was in each (a) belongs to the company and it is for the company to LEP and (b) region in each year since the formation of maintain. LEPs. [170673] The Government is not able to disclose it. However, we sought to ensure that the allocation favoured long-term Michael Fallon: The Government do not hold investors during the sale process. information on the annual spend of local enterprise partnerships (LEPs). LEPs are responsible for a number Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State of local economic development programmes that are for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people funded by Government, and which are individually were unsuccessful in their application for shares in monitored by the relevant Government Department. Royal Mail. [171111]

Music: Licensing Michael Fallon: The retail element of the Royal Mail Share Offer was seven times subscribed. 690,000 people received shares; around 40,000 retail applicants— Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State approximately 5%--did not receive any allocation of for Business, Innovation and Skills if she will establish shares. a music licensing and collections agency for the devolved regions. [170417] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what his Department Jo Swinson: Collecting societies in the UK are privately- is doing with the deposits paid by people who made an controlled entities, usually set up by rightsholders and unsuccessful application for shares in Royal Mail. owned and controlled by them. It is a matter for the [171112] rightsholders concerned to decide whether to set up any new societies. Michael Fallon: The policy on the refund of application monies was set out in the Terms and Conditions of the Postal Services Direct Retail Offer, included in the Prospectus and provided with the Summary Prospectus. Cheques will be posted or bank refund instructions will be made no Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for later than 21 October 2013. Business, Innovation and Skills what safeguards exist to protect the Royal Mail’s six-day-per-week delivery Students service. [170731] Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Jo Swinson: The Government is committed to securing Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of the future of the universal postal service provided by students in UK universities were born in (a) the UK, Royal Mail, which is so important to local communities, (b) the EU, (c) the Commonwealth, (d) the USA and our wider society and the UK economy. (d) China. [170896] The Postal Services Act 2011 (PSA) sets down the minimum requirements of the universal postal service Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency in law. These minimum requirements include the collection (HESA) collects and publishes data on enrolments at of letters every Monday to Saturday and deliveries to UK higher education institutions (HEIs). all addresses in the United Kingdom at uniform and Information on students’ country of birth is not held affordable prices. Any change to these minimum centrally. However, data on student nationality is available requirements would require the approval of both Houses and has been provided as an alternative. Where a student of Parliament. has dual nationality including British, they appear as a Under the PSA, Ofcom, as the independent regulator British national. If they hold dual nationality, not including for postal services, has the primary duty to secure the British, but including a non-British EU country, then provision of the universal postal service in the UK. The they appear as an EU national. Data is not collected on Act provides Ofcom with the power to intervene if the the nationality of students at Northern Irish HEIs. 737W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 738W

Information on the proportion of students by nationality they should take the appropriate steps to make their at English, Scottish and Welsh HEIs in the academic systems as secure as possible. Advice on protection year 2011/12 has been provided in the following table. from dial-through fraud is available from the getsafeonline Enrolments1 by nationality2. English, Welsh and Scottish higher website. education institutions (HEIs). Academic year 2011/12 If companies have experienced dial-through fraud Nationality Enrolments Percentage they should report the matter to Action Fraud, the

3 UK’s national fraud reporting centre, telephone 0300 UK 1,867,410 76.4 123 2040, website: EU (includes UK) 2,064,320 84.4 www.actionfraud.police.uk Commonwealth (includes 2,031,760 83.1 UK)4 Reports to Action Fraud are reviewed by the National USA 18,120 0.7 Fraud Intelligence Bureau (NFIB). If, on the basis of China 85,020 3.5 the information reported, enforcement is assessed as Hong Kong (Special 4,400 0.2 being viable the NFIB will present a comprehensive Administrative Region of case to the most appropriate police force or organisation China) to investigate. Macao (Special 90 — Administrative Region of UK Trade and Investment China) Taiwan (Province of China) 4,495 0.2 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for All nationalities 2,444,735 100.0 Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has 1 Enrolments refers to students in all years of study made of the depth and range of data collected on 2 Where a student has dual nationality including British, they appear [170794] as a British national. If they hold a dual nationality, not including regional UK Trade and Investment offices. British, but including a non-British EU country, then they appear as the EU national. Michael Fallon: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I 3 British nationality including the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man gave on 8 October 2013, Official Report, columns 284-5W, and nationality unknown. to my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and 4 Classified as the sum of the 53 member countries of the Commonwealth Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski). http://thecommonwealth.org/member-countries Note: Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking have been rounded up or down to the nearest five, so components to ensure that the impact of regional UK Trade and may not sum to totals. Source: Investment offices is accurately measured and monitored. Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record. [170795]

Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Michael Fallon: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has gave on 8 October 2013, Official Report, column 284W, made of the percentage of undergraduates aged under to my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and 25 in (a) England, (b) the UK, (c) US, (d) Canada, Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski). (e) Australia, (f) France, (g) Germany and (h) Japan. [170995]

Mr Willetts: I refer the right hon. Member to the CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT answer I gave on 10 October 2013, Official Report, Broadband: Rossendale column 366W. Telephones: Fraud Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 8 October 2013, Official Report, column 201W, Broadband: Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Rossendale, how many premises in Rossendale and Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department Darwen constituency are included in the 1800 premises is taking to tackle the effects of dial through telephone passed to date; and what proportion of the premises in fraud on UK businesses; and if he will make a statement. Lancashire, Blackpool and Blackburn with Darwen are [170649] in Rossendale and Darwen constituency. [170619] James Brokenshire [holding answer 14 October 2013]: Mr Vaizey: The Department does not have premises I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Home level information, or at the level of constituency for Department. premises passed at this time. The local project team in Small and medium sized businesses often use Lancashire would be the best source for information at ’Private Branch Exchanges’ for internal and external that level. communications. These systems are targeted by criminals who exploit the technology by committing what is known Broadband: Rural Areas as ’dial-through fraud’, where the exchange is hacked into allowing calls to be routed through the system to Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, high rate international/premium rate numbers. Media and Sport what her policy is on disclosure by Fraud of this type can be exacerbated by ineffective local authorities of the postcodes that will benefit from access security measures that protect against unauthorised the Rural Community Broadband Fund as led by access. If companies suspect that they are vulnerable, Broadband Delivery UK. [171041] 739W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 740W

Mr Vaizey: It is a matter for local authorities and BT on GOV.uk, the National Archives or in the Library of to publish their roll out plans under the Rural Broadband the House. There are also non-legally binding, although Programme and I wrote to the local authorities in July politically and morally binding, arrangements which encouraging them to publish information on the expected take various forms, including: memoranda of understanding coverage from their projects. (MOU), Defence Co-operation Arrangements (DCA) and Letters of Intent (LoI). Internet A significant number of legally and non-legally binding arrangements are in place with bilateral partners which Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for permit and facilitate UK personnel activity in the territory Culture, Media and Sport if she will review the regulation of a third party. MOUs are drafted and negotiated by of the process for domain names registration in the many areas of the Department depending on the subject light of the dominant position held by Nominet. matter they are dealing with. [170774] These cover all aspects of international defence Mr Vaizey: Nominet is a private not-for-profit business co-operation, such as detailing the general arrangements with a public purpose agenda, and any surplus generated for organising, deploying or hosting international training by the company is donated to the Nominet Trust. While and exercises; the exchange of personnel and units; Nominet is responsible for the domain name registration equipment and research collaboration; and the protection process in the .uk space, UK internet users are able to of classified information. choose from over 20 alternative Top Level Domain The UK has signed MOUs with over 100 countries names including com, .net, .eu, and .org, as well as .uk on all aspects of international defence co-operation and over 250 other country codes. Additionally, users over the last 60 years. However, as comprehensive records will soon be able to choose from over 1,400 generic Top of MOUs have never been held centrally by the Department, Level Domain (gTLD) names as a result of ICANN’s and it is estimated that there are over 3,000 extant gTLD programme. This provides a highly competitive MOUs, copies could be provided only at disproportionate market, offering businesses, and individuals, choice. cost.

Army: Germany DEFENCE Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Air Force Defence where each Army unit that has been withdrawn from Germany is being re-based. [170679] Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what involvement RAF Careers had with the Dr Murrison: Details of the Army units that have making of the Channel 5 documentary series Billion been withdrawn from Germany and their location in Dollar Wreck Hunt; and if he will make a statement. the UK are shown in the following table: [170777] Unit Location Anna Soubry: RAF Careers had no involvement in 43 Close Support Squadron The Dalton Barracks, Abingdon the making of the Billion Dollar Wreck Hunt. RAF Royal Logistic Corps Careers sponsored the series as part of a larger sponsorship 7 Theatre Logistic Regiment Kendrew Barracks, Cottesmore package on Channel 5, which includes a number of The Royal Logistic Corps adventure-related programmes. This is a nine month Headquarters Allied Rapid Imjin Barracks, Gloucester agreement, due to complete in April 2014. Reaction Corps

Armed Forces: Deployment Details of the Army units that have been withdrawn from Germany but not to the UK are shown in the Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence following table: with reference to paragraph 3.6 of the Memorandum of Understanding between the UK and US regarding the Unit Location assignment of UK military personnel to the 432nd 2nd Battalion The Royal Cyprus Wing, what other written agreements are in place to Regiment of Fusiliers permit and facilitate UK personnel activities in the 2nd Battalion The Yorkshire Cyprus territory of a third party; and if he will place copies of Regiment any such agreements in the Library. [R] [170717]

Dr Murrison: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) utilises Bosnia and Herzegovina a number of written documents to support the deployment of personnel to third party countries. These can be Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for legally binding agreements or treaties, which are bilateral Defence with reference to the recent decision by the or multilateral documents signed between the Foreign Dutch Supreme Court to hold the Dutch government and Commonwealth Office (FCO) (on the MOD’s behalf) to account for the actions of its peacekeepers at and a foreign counterpart. Legally binding agreements Srebrenica, what assessment he has made of the relating to MOD activity can be found at the FCO implications of that decision for the deployment of treaty website at: members of HM Forces in support of UN missions. http://treaties.fco.gov.uk/treaties/treaty.htm [170764] 741W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 742W

Mr Francois: My right hon. Friend is right to note the Lost Property potential significance of this judgment, which we are studying carefully. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he is taking to tackle lost property Defence: Procurement in his Department and the armed forces. [170736]

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Anna Soubry: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has Defence what steps his Department is taking to ensure an ongoing security improvement programme which that any overlaps in procurement are kept to a minimum through education, awareness and training seeks to thus ensuring a joined-up approach to defence procurement. improve our performance in this area by drawing on [170789] existing policy and guidance, our knowledge of the evolving threat faced by Defence and evidence derived Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has in from incidents involving the loss or theft of Defence place a range of policies and processes to ensure that all assets. defence expenditure is managed in a joined-up manner. Despite these efforts, in both the public and private As part of the Levene Reforms we have established sector, losses or thefts of equipment will still occur. To the Financial and Military Capability Organisation within reduce the security impact, the MOD has a number of the Head Office which acts as the capability coherence measures in place to minimise the risk of compromise authority for the Department. It discharges this function of information. by examining the plans generated by the front line Examples of these include encrypting most laptops commands, to ensure the combination of all submitted and removable media to ensure the data they contain plans is coherent and aligned, and above all affordable are extremely difficult to access; and a corporate telephony through Strategic Balance of Investment. This includes service (Blackberry Enterprise Service) that requires all identifying potential overlaps in those plans. devices to be password protected and which have the For the procurement of goods and services, the ability to be remotely wiped and isolated from the Department has been working with the Government system. Procurement Service to transition appropriate common goods and services to centralised procurement, creating Mali opportunities for savings through rationalisation and economies of scale. Last year £1.7 billion of MOD Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence expenditure was managed in this way. whether his Department has plans to provide training on drones to African-led International Support Mission Devonport Dockyard to Mali. [R] [170713] Mr Francois: The Ministry of Defence has no plans Mr Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for to provide training on Unmanned Aircraft System to Defence what steps his Department is taking to secure the African-led International Support Mission to Mali. the release of South Yard, HM Dockyard Devonport to the Homes and Community Agency; and by when Marchwood Military Port such a transfer will take place. [170591]

Dr Murrison: Ministry of Defence officials are working Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with the Cabinet Office and Plymouth city council on what assessment he has made of the additional capacity the release of South Yard. It is too early to say when a of the port of Southampton to improve the resilience, transfer will take place. capacity and capability of the army’s sea mounting operations following the sale of Marchwood. [170994]

Iraq Mr Dunne: In developing the business case for the proposed sale of Marchwood, consideration is being Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for given to the advantages that access to the additional Defence what assessment he has made of the health capacity of other ports, including Southampton, might problems in Iraq arising from the use of uranium- bring in improving the resilience of the Ministry of depleted munitions and the nerve agent Sarin during Defence’s sea mounting operations. It is envisaged, as the first and second Gulf wars; and what steps his part of any tender process, that bidders will have the Department is taking to tackle such health issues in an opportunity to address this in their responses. effective and appropriate way. [170685] Nuclear Submarines Mr Francois: On the use of depleted uranium ammunition, I refer the hon. Member to the answer Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for given to him by my predecessor, my right hon. Friend Defence on how many occasions power to a nuclear the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), submarine’s reactor cooling systems has failed when in on 10 June 2013, Official Report, column 14W, and on port in each submarine base in the last 20 years. [170726] 18 January 2013, Official Report, column 964W, and 4 February 2013, Official Report, column 78W, to the Mr Dunne [holding answer 14 October 2013]: Nuclear hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), submarines have a diverse range of reactor cooling On the nerve agent Sarin, I am not aware of any systems, including a dedicated system that is not dependent evidence that it was used in the first or second Gulf war. on electrical supplies. 743W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 744W

There have been four events in the last 20 years However, in the absence of wider reform there are involving the loss of electrical power to a nuclear some straightforward and common-sense changes that submarine’s reactor cooling systems when in port: two could help to manage the ever increasing size of the while at Her Majesty’s Naval Base (HMNB) Clyde, one House of Lords and the Government is willing to at HMNB Devonport and one at Rosyth Dockyard. consider how such changes could be achieved. In all four events there was no disruption to reactor cooling owing to the loss of electrical supplies. Local Growth Committee

Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Defence what steps he is taking to increase safety on how many times the Local Growth Cabinet Committee nuclear submarines. [170735] has met in the last 12 months. [168911]

Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) applies The Deputy Prime Minister: We do not comment on a process of continuous improvement across all elements the frequency of Cabinet Committee meetings. of the submarine programme, consistent with best practice in safety management and the requirements of regulators. This takes close account of lessons learned from incidents Urban Areas in the civil nuclear industry and in other areas of Defence. Mr Streeter: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister In seeking safety improvements, the MOD works which local authorities have taken part in City Deals to closely with industry, recognising the critical role of the date; and what freedoms and funding have been given UK’s nuclear submarine supply chain in delivering safe as part of each such City Deal. [170590] submarines. Greg Clark: The Government concluded City Deals Submarine safety is also being driven forward through with the eight largest cities in England outside London an initiative known as NavySafe. A key element of this in July 2012. These deals offered a range of funding and is improving the reporting of safety events, to allow flexibilities to the various City Regions, including: greater lessons to be drawn more effectively from past experience. control over the skills and apprenticeship system locally; Engineering improvements are continually being joint work with Government to maximise the value of incorporated into in-service submarines, with major public sector land assets; greater control over long term refits providing a valuable opportunity to incorporate transport funding; powers and flexible funding to create improvements to key submarine systems. single investment funds; powers to share the proceeds of future economic growth with Government; support to Unmanned Air Vehicles help business grow and to attract inward investment; and a more flexible approach to planning locally. Each Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence City Deal was bespoke, and was negotiated according pursuant to the answer of 25 February 2013, Official to the needs of each city. Report, column 38W, on unmanned aerial vehicles, if The local authorities involved in Wave 1 City Deals his Department will develop trauma risk management were: strategies specifically tailored for drone operators. [R] Birmingham [170716] Birmingham City Council Solihull Council Mr Francois: I have nothing further to add to my predecessor’s answer of 25 February 2013, Official Report, Bristol column 38W,however, the Ministry of Defence continues Bristol City Council North Somerset Council to monitor its trauma risk management strategies for South Gloucestershire Council pilots and will develop a specific strategy for RAF Bath and North East Somerset Council Reaper operators should the need arise. Leeds City Region Leeds Council Bradford Council Wakefield Council DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Calderdale Council Kirklees Council House of Lords Craven Council Selby Council Mr McCann: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he will make it his policy that the House of Lords be Harrogate Council reduced in number. [900478] York Council Liverpool City Region Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Deputy Prime Liverpool Council Minister what his policy is on House of Lords reform. Halton Council [900481] Knowsley Council The Deputy Prime Minister: The Government remains Sefton Council committed to an elected House of Lords with a reduced St Helens Council number of members. Wirral Council 745W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 746W

Greater Manchester own decisions in a range of areas, including the budget, Manchester Council curriculum, staffing, teachers’ pay and conditions and Salford Council the length of terms. Trafford Council We are continuing to reduce bureaucracy for academies Tameside Council by improving our model funding agreements for new academies and enabling established academies to switch Stockport Council to a new agreement if they wish to do so. Bury Council Oldham Council Dame Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State Rochdale Council for Education what the annual budget of the Academies Wigan Council Show Team is. [170906] Bolton Council Mr Timpson: The Department for Education and the Newcastle Education Funding Agency have supported the Academies Newcastle Council Show since it started in May 2012. The Academies Gateshead Council Show is organised by Partnership Media Group and Northumberland Council has a number of commercial sponsors. Sunderland Council Neither the Department for Education nor the Education Durham Council Funding Agency has a budget for the Academies Show; suppliers pay to exhibit at the show which is free to North Tyneside Council delegates. South Tyneside Council Nottingham Free Schools: Teachers Nottingham City Council Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Nottinghamshire County Council Education how many teachers in free schools have had Sheffield City Region Criminal Records Bureau checks on their suitability to Sheffield Council work with children. [171098] Rotherham Council Barnsley Council Mr Timpson: All teachers and other staff members in Doncaster Council free schools must be checked using the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS, formerly Criminal Records Bureau). Chesterfield Council This requirement is contained in the school funding North East Derbyshire Council agreement. Bolsover Council Bassetlaw Council Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Derbyshire Dales Council Education how many teachers work in free schools; and what their (a) age and (b) qualifications are. [171099] A full list of the commitments agreed in the Wave 1 City Deals can be found at: Mr Timpson: In November 2012, the annual School https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/city-deals-wave-1 Workforce Census1 showed that a total of 682 full-time In addition, the Government is currently negotiating equivalent teachers, (a headcount of 736) were employed Wave 2 City Deals with a further 20 cities in England. in 64 Free Schools. These are the next 14 largest cities by population, as 1 Note: well as the six cities with the fastest growing populations. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/school- The Preston City Deal, which involved Preston City workforce-in-england-november-2012 Council, South Ribble District Council and Lancashire The average age of the teachers working in Free County Council, was signed in September 2013, while Schools was 38. This compares with an average age of the remaining 19 City Deals are currently being negotiated 40 for teachers in all publicly funded schools in England. by Government. Data on each qualification held by each teacher is not collected. GCSE EDUCATION Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Academies Education what proportion of children of Pakistani ethnicity achieved five or more GCSEs at grade C or above, including mathematics and English, in schools Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for in (a) London and (b) England, excluding London. Education what steps he is taking to reduce bureaucracy [170930] on (a) new and (b) established academies; and if he will make a statement. [170616] Mr Laws: The following table provides information as requested for the percentage of Pakistani pupils Mr Timpson: The Government is committed to reducing achieving five or more GCSEs at grade A* to C or bureaucracy for all schools so that they are able to equivalent including English and mathematics GCSEs1 concentrate on raising standards. for pupils2, 3 in London and England (excluding London) All academies benefit from a range of freedoms and in 2011/124. Coverage is for all state-funded schools flexibilities that give them more power to make their (including academies and CTCs) in England. 747W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 748W

Pupils: Disadvantaged Pakistani All Pupils5 Percentage Percentage achieving achieving 5+ A*-C 5+ A*-C grades inc. grades inc. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for English English Education what proportion of 15 year old pupils were Number and Number and classified as disadvantaged in (a) Tower Hamlets, (b) of eligible mathematics of eligible mathematics Westminster (c) Barking and Dagenham, (d) Wokingham, pupils2 GCSEs pupils2 GCSEs (e) Buckinghamshire, (f) Hampshire, (g) West Berkshire, London 2,934 65.5 74,534 62.4 (h) Kingston-upon-Thames and (i) Trafford in 2012; England 13,956 52.5 484,542 58.5 and what percentage points attainment gap existed between (excluding such pupils and those not classified as disadvantaged in London) pass rates of five or more GCSEs at grade C or above 1 From 2009/10 IGCSEs, accredited at time of publication, have been including mathematics and English. [170939] counted as GCSE equivalents and also as English & mathematics GCSEs. 2 Pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 in the academic year. 3 The figures in this table do not include pupils recently arrived from Mr Laws: The information requested is provided in overseas. the following tables: 4 Figures for 2011/12 are based on final data. 5 Includes pupils of any other ethnic group, also those pupils for whom ethnicity was not obtained, refused, or could not be determined. Source: National Pupil Database

Number and proportion of eligible pupils1 and percentage of pupils achieving five or more GCSEs2 at grade A* to C or equivalent including English and mathematics GCSEs by disadvantaged pupils3 for the local authorities (LAs) requested. Years: 2011/124. Coverage: England, state-funded schools (including academies and CTCs) Disadvantaged pupils Non-disadvantaged pupils % achieving 5+ A*-C % achieving 5+ grades inc. A*-C grades inc. Proportion of English and Proportion of English and No. of eligible eligible mathematics No. of eligible eligible mathematics LA code LA name pupiils1 pupils1 GCSEs pupiils1 pupils1 GCSEs

E09000030 Tower Hamlets 1,350 55.2 59.3 1,094 44.8 65.1 E09000033 Westminster 503 36.3 65.2 882 63.7 72.7 E09000002 Barking and 562 26.7 49.1 1,539 73.3 62.1 Dagenham E06000041 Wokingham 87 5.3 26.4 1,551 94.7 67.9 E10000002 Buckinghamshire 340 6.2 29.4 5,156 93.8 72.4 E10000014 Hampshire 1,118 8.1 25.4 12,711 91.9 61.4 E06000037 West Berkshire 124 6.5 20.2 1,779 93.5 59.8 E09000021 Kingston upon 113 7.4 42.5 1,413 92.6 72.3 Thames E08000009 Trafford 350 12.0 43.7 2,562 88.0 76.3

E92000001 England6 83,247 14.9 35.8 475,829 85.1 63.1

All pupils % achieving 5+ A*-C Attainment gap (non- No. of eligible grades inc. English and disadvantaged pupils minus LA code LA name pupiils1 mathematics GCSEs disadvantaged pupils)5

E09000030 Tower Hamlets 2,444 61.9 5.8 E09000033 Westminster 1,385 70.0 7.5 E09000002 Barking and Dagenham 2,101 58.6 13.0 E06000041 Wokingham 1,638 65.7 41.5 E10000002 Buckinghamshire 5,496 69.7 43.0 E10000014 Hampshire 13,829 58.5 36.0 E06000037 West Berkshire 1,903 57.2 39.6 E09000021 Kingston upon Thames 1,526 70.1 29.8 E08000009 Trafford 2,912 72.4 32.6

E92000001 England6 559,076 59.1 27.3 749W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 750W

1 Pupils at the end of key stage 4 in the academic year. 2 From 2009/10 iGCSEs, accredited at time of publication, have been counted as GCSE equivalents and also as English and mathematics GCSEs. 3 Includes pupils known to be eligible for FSM in any spring autumn, summer, alternative provision or pupil referral unit census from year six to year 11 or are looked after children. 4 Figures are based on final data. 5 Attainment gaps are calculated on unrounded figures. 6 The England and local authority figures in this table do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. Source: National Pupil Database

Pupils: Languages Mr Laws: Information on the number of pupils in year 6 and year 11 by first language for regions in Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for England is shown in the following table. Information Education what proportion of pupils in (a) Year R, (b) for reception pupils is not available as first language is Year 6 and (c) Year 11 had English as an additional only collected for pupils of compulsory school age and language in (i) London and (ii) areas outside London in above. the last period for which figures are available. [170671]

State-funded primary, state-funded secondary, special schools and pupil referral units1, 2, 3, 4. Number and percentage of pupils by first language and national curriculum year group5. January 2013. By region in England National curriculum year group Year group 6 Year group 11 First Percentage First Percentage language of pupils Percentage language of pupils is known whose first First of pupils is known whose first First Percentage or language language whose first or language language of pupils believed is known is known language believed is known is known whose first to be or believed or is known to be or believed or language is other to be other believed or believed other to be other believed known or than than to be to be than than to be believed to Region English English6 English English6 Total7 English English6 English be English6 Total7

England 93,225 17.4 441,365 82.5 535,265 73,230 12.7 504,080 87.1 578,590

North 1,500 5.8 24,135 94.1 25,650 1,075 3.7 27,990 96.2 29,095 East North 9,385 12.8 64,140 87.2 73,580 7,185 8.8 74,255 91.0 81,570 West Yorkshire 8,705 15.8 46,385 84.1 55,140 5,805 9.8 53,200 90.0 59,080 and the Humber East 5,270 11.4 40,715 88.4 46,040 4,565 9.0 46,330 90.9 50,980 Midlands West 11,785 19.6 48,195 80.2 60,080 9,200 14.1 56,030 85.7 65,360 Midlands East of 6,660 11.2 52,955 88.7 59,705 5,185 7.9 60,450 91.8 65,845 England London 38,205 47.5 42,105 52.3 80,510 30,510 38.7 48,105 61.0 78,865 Inner 16,255 57.2 12,065 42.5 28,415 12,915 50.5 12,545 49.0 25,585 London Outer 21,950 42.1 30,040 57.7 52,095 17,600 33.0 35,560 66.7 53,300 London South 9,075 10.8 75,175 89.2 84,315 7,515 8.3 82,980 91.4 90,800 East South 2,635 5.2 47,560 94.7 50,240 2,185 3.8 54,745 96.1 56,970 West 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes primary academies, including free schools. 3 Includes city technology colleges and all secondary academies, including free schools, university technical colleges and studio schools. 4 Includes maintained special schools, special academies and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 5 Pupils of compulsory school age and above in year 6 and year 11 were classified by first language. Includes pupils who are sole or dual main registrations. In pupil referral units includes pupils registered with other providers and further education colleges. 6 The number of pupils by their first language expressed as a percentage of the number of pupils of compulsory school age and above. 7 Including pupils whose first language was not sought or refused or pending classification. Note: Pupil numbers have been rounded to the nearest 5, totals may not appear to equal the sum of the component parts. Source: School Census. 751W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 752W

School Meals in state-funded secondary schools in England, Greater London, Greater Manchester and the West Midlands is Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for shown in the following table. This information can also Education what proportion of secondary school pupils be found in table 8b of the ‘Schools, pupils and their are entitled to school meals in (a) Greater London, characteristics: January 2013’ Statistical First Release1. (b) Greater Manchester and (c) Birmingham and the 1 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/schools-pupils- West Midlands. [170670] and-their-characteristics-january-2013 Mr Laws: The number and percentage of pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals

State-funded secondary schools1,2: Number of pupils eligible for and claiming free school meals3, January 2013—England, Greater Manchester, West Midlands and London Pupils eligible for free school meals4 Number of pupils known to Percentage known to be be eligible for and claiming eligible for and claiming free Number on roll free school meals school meals

England 2,779,190 452,600 16.3

Greater Manchester5 145,960 30,520 20.9

West Midlands6 312,340 57.335 18.4

London 387,065 97,380 25.2 Inner London 126,385 47,035 37.2 Outer London 260,680 50,345 19.3 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and all secondary academies, including free schools, university technical colleges and studio schools. 3 Includes pupils who are sole or dual main registrations. Includes boarders. 4 Pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals who have full time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part time attendance and are aged between five and 15. 5 Greater Manchester figures include data from Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford and Wigan local authorities. 6 Includes Birmingham local authority. Note: Pupil numbers have been rounded to the nearest five, therefore totals may not appear to equal the sum of the component parts. Source: School Census

Teachers Mr Laws: The following table provides information on the average age and full-time equivalent average Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for salary paid to publicly funded classroom and head Education what the average (a) age of and (b) full-time teachers in inner London, outer London and England equivalent salary paid to (i) classroom teachers and (ii) excluding London in November 2012, which is the head teachers in (A) inner London, (B) outer London latest information available. and (C) England excluding London is. [170666]

Inner London Outer London England excluding London Heads Classroom Heads Classroom Heads Classroom

Average age 50 37 51 38 49 39 Average salary (£)1,2 80,100 38,900 76,700 37,100 62,300 33,900 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest £100. 2. The full-time equivalent salary for part-time teachers is the full-time salary rate upon which their part-time salary is based. Source: School Workforce Census available from: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/school-workforce-in-england-november-2012

Published figures show little change in the average document as a characteristic obligating teachers in their salary of teachers and headteachers between November duties under equal opportunities legislation, but was 2010 and 2012. not included in the July draft of that document. [170204]

Teachers: Equality Elizabeth Truss: The inclusion statement in the draft national curriculum framework document that was Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Education published for consultation in July did not include the for what reason gender identity was included in the phrase ’gender identity’ due to a drafting error. The text February draft of the National Curriculum Framework was corrected before the final version of the national 753W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 754W curriculum framework document was published on 11 that the arrangements will last until 2050, with an September. The inclusion section now states that teachers estimated remaining cost to the tax payer of some should take account of their duties under equal £450 million. opportunities legislation that covers race, disability, sex, religion or belief, sexual orientation, pregnancy and Fracking maternity, and gender reassignment. The new national curriculum will be taught in maintained schools from Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy September 2014. and Climate Change what assessment he has made of the effect of flooding on the environmental safety of UN Convention on the Rights of the Child fracking; and what assessment he has made of the relevance for hydraulic fracturing to exploit shale gas in Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK of the serious flooding of fracking sites in Education (1) what proportion of (a) teachers and (b) Colorado in September 2013. [170606] officials in his Department who work with children have received training on the UN Convention on the Michael Fallon: Any development that is planned Rights of the Child; [171066] near a main river or a flood defence will require flood defence consent from the Environment Agency. It is a (2) what steps he has taken to ensure adequate and statutory consultee in the planning process and can systematic training of (a) teachers and (b) officials in object to any development that it considers to be at high his Department who work with children on the UN risk of flooding. Similar processes apply in other parts Convention on the Rights of the Child. [171085] of the UK. Mr Timpson: The Department for Education does The Colorado Department of Public Health and not hold information about the proportion of teachers Environment has found no evidence of pollutants from who have received training on the UN convention on oil and gas spills in rivers and streams affected by the the rights of the child (UNCRC). Teachers who work in flooding. The Environment Agency has made no assessment schools that have been accredited under the Rights of the relevance of flooding of shale gas sites in Colorado Respecting Schools Award run by UNICEF or who are in September 2013. responsible for citizenship or Personal, Social, Health Green Deal Scheme and Economic (PSHE) lessons can also access the many online materials that are available to improve their understanding of the UNCRC. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much of the £200 The Department has taken a number of steps to raise million of Government funding allocated to the Green awareness of the UNCRC among its officials, including Deal in November 2011 has been spent to date. several detailed training sessions for those involved in developing new policy or legislation. We do not keep a [170480] record of the proportion of staff involved in this ongoing Gregory Barker [holding answer 14 October 2013]: work. While announced in November 2011, the bulk of the £200 million was budgeted for spend in 2013-14 rather than 2012-13. As of the end of September, £31.4 million ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE had been spent and we have already announced that at least another £20 million will be directed to the Green Coal: Concessions Deal Communities scheme. I expect the total to be significantly above £51.4 million by the end of March Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for 2014, but I am also focused on ensuring that we deliver Energy and Climate Change whether his Department value for money in the way we incentivise consumers to will adopt the Concessionary Fuel beneficiaries act under the Green Deal and the energy company liability; and if he will make a statement. [168504] obligation (ECO). So far, over 71,000 Green Deal assessments have Michael Fallon: A range of concessionary fuel taken place, with surveys demonstrating that more than entitlements currently exist. DECC is responsible for 80% of the households have been spurred into action, the National Concessionary Fuel Scheme (NCFS) for and nearly 195,000 energy efficiency measures have the former employees of the British Coal Corporation been installed in homes under ECO. We are also building (BCC) at the time of privatisation. This Scheme is value by channelling funds through local authorities completely separate from the arrangements operated by and communities to demonstrate what can be achieved private coal mining companies that inherited obligations on a street-by-street basis. We have consulted on adjustments at privatisation or set up their own arrangements. DECC to the cashback scheme and plan to implement changes has no legal obligations in relation to these company shortly, in order to provide a substantial extra boost to specific arrangements. delivery. DECC’s obligations under the NCFS are governed by collective agreements established between BCC and Sellafield the mining unions in the 1980s. Following the privatisation of BCC in 1994, Government assumed liability for the Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy provision of concessionary fuel (or cash in lieu) to and Climate Change what discussions (a) Ministers former employees of BCC (and their widows) who met and (b) officials in his Department have had with (i) the necessary criteria under these arrangements. DECC the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA), (ii) currently services over 69,000 beneficiaries. It is envisaged Sellafield Ltd and (iii) Nuclear Management Partners 755W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 756W on liability indemnification for the extension of the top the dog was not prepared for travel correctly (ie the dog was tier management contract for Sellafield announced by vaccinated prior to microchipping); NDA on 4 October. [170620] the pet travel documents were missing or incomplete, or there was a discrepancy in the documents provided; Michael Fallon: No discussions have taken place regarding the dog was not microchipped or the microchip could not be this issue, as the existing contractual arrangements are read; still applicable. there was no rabies vaccination or there was a break in the rabies vaccination record. Wind Power: Planning Permission

David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Dogs: Animal Welfare Energy and Climate Change what inspection and enforcement measures his Department has put in place to ensure that wind farm developers abide by Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for development regulations. [170265] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment he has made of the use of captive bolt gun and the Michael Fallon: Development consent requirements legislation allowing its use against dogs. [169835] for onshore wind farms are generally the responsibility of the local planning authority to discharge, monitor George Eustice: The Animal Welfare Act 2006 makes and enforce. In exceptional cases, the Secretary of State it an offence to cause any unnecessary suffering to an may be responsible for discharging certain conditions, animal and this includes the manner in which an animal for instance, some requirements in respect of aviation may be put down. The recommended way of euthanising radar. a dog is for a veterinary surgeon to administer an In respect of offshore wind farms, the Secretary of overdose of barbiturates. Other methods of euthanasia State is responsible for discharging and enforcing must be available in cases where emergency action is development consent requirements alongside other marine needed. If used correctly, captive bolt guns may avoid regulators who are responsible for the requirements unnecessary suffering but they are not a recommended contained in other relevant licences and permits. method of euthanising dogs. Anyone using an alternative method that causes the animal unnecessary suffering runs the risk of prosecution under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Incinerators Animal Welfare Act 2006 Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will review he has made of the potential effects of falling levels of the maximum penalties set out in the Animal Welfare general domestic waste caused by increased recycling Act 2006. [170860] and composting on plans to build new incinerators. [170205] George Eustice: The Animal Welfare Act 2006 was reviewed in 2010 and no recommendation was made to Dan Rogerson: DEFRA keeps under review the progress amend the maximum penalties for animal welfare offences. towards meeting targets for diverting waste from landfill set under the EU landfill directive. Our most recent Dogs assessment of infrastructure capacity likely to be required in England to make the necessary contribution to the Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for UK target for 2020 is available on the Gov.UK website Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment (‘Forecasting 2020 waste arisings and treatment capacity’). he has made of the number of dogs illegally entering the country each year. [170852] Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is George Eustice: The number of dogs seized and taking to ensure transparency to councillors and the quarantined by trading standards or the police after public and accountability in the awarding of private illegally entering Great Britain in the last five financial finance initiative contracts to operate incinerators. years is shown in the following table. [170206]

Number Dan Rogerson: It is for local authorities that are 2008-09 111 considering letting such contracts to ensure that councillors 2009-10 95 and the public are informed as necessary of the process 2010-11 86 and terms on which they propose to enter into contracts 2011-12 188 for waste infrastructure. 2012-13 219 DEFRA manages the approval process for waste PFI supported projects. For these, we require that local The most commonly stated reasons for seizure and authorities make available their business cases and contracts quarantine were: on the appropriate media outlet (usually the local authority’s the dog was too young for a valid rabies vaccination; web site). 757W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 758W

Pets some of their work force on this basis. Core DEFRA does not currently typically use this as a criterion in Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for evaluating tenders. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent estimate he has made of the number of dogs and cats in England; and if he will make a statement. [170899] Trees: Diseases

George Eustice: There is no official record or estimate of the number of cats and dogs in this country, but Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for figures provided by other organisations such as the Pet Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many Food Manufacturers Association and the RSPCA put trees were killed by (a) acute oak decline, (b) Asian the number at between 8 and 10 million of both cats longhorn beetle, (c) chalara dieback of ash, (d) and dogs. chestnut blight and (e) dothistroma needle blight in each of the last five years for which figures are available; [170556] Plants (2) how many trees were killed by (a) great spruce bark beetle, dendroctonus micans, (b) horse chestnut Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for leaf miner, cameraria ohridella, (c) oak pinhole borer, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is platypus cylindrus, (d) oak processionary moth, taking to improve honeysuckle habitats in the UK. thaumetopoea processionea, and (e) phytophthora [170740] alni in each of the last five years for which figures are available. [170557] George Eustice: Native honeysuckle (Lonicera periclymenum) is a woodland climber and is also found in hedgerows. It is especially important as a source of Dan Rogerson: Individual tree deaths that could be pollen, nectar and berries for a range of insects and directly attributed to the pests and pathogens listed are birds and a useful nesting site for birds in woodland. not recorded by DEFRA or the Forestry Commission. Steps to improve these habitats include the management Many trees that have been affected by pests and of ancient semi-natural woodland and hedgerows through diseases will be felled long before they finally die and it Environmental Stewardship. is often the case that trees that do die have been affected Deer control also plays a role in improving conditions by a combination of factors over a long period. For for honeysuckle as deer like to eat honeysuckle. The example, a tree that suffers repeated defoliation may Government helps facilitate deer management through succumb to other environmental factors. This means the provision of advice and guidance for those impacted that it would be very difficult to attribute the death to a by or wishing to manage deer. Natural England, in single factor. association with the Deer Initiative, provides this via its deer website: In some cases many more trees can be felled as a result of the control measures than as a result of the www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/regulation/wildlife/ pest or disease. For example, for the control of Asian species/deer.aspx longhorn beetle in Kent, which appears to have been Conservation of biodiversity is a devolved matter so successful, 2,166 host trees were removed but only 66 action in other parts of the UK is a matter for the were found to be infested. devolved Administrations.

Procurement Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he has made of how many trees were killed by (a) Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Phytophthora austrocedrae, (b) Phytophthora kernoviae, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment (c) Phytophthora lateralis, (d) Phytophthora ramorum his Department makes of the (a) payment of minimum and (e) Pine tree lappet moth (Dendrolimus pini) for wage, (b) payment of living wage and (c) use of zero each of the last five years for which figures are available. hours contracts when tendering for public procurement [170722] contracts. [169319]

Dan Rogerson: When tendering for public procurement George Eustice: No monitoring of individual tree contracts, core DEFRA makes assessments against a deaths that could be directly attributed to the pests and number of evaluation criteria including their approach pathogens listed is carried out by DEFRA or the Forestry to corporate social responsibility. Commission. The payment of the national minimum wage is a core Many trees that have been affected by pests and requirement of the contract under which core DEFRA diseases will be felled long before they finally die and it obtains its clerical and administrative temporary staff. is often the case that trees that do die have been affected Core DEFRA places many service-based contracts, such by a combination of factors over a long period. For as facilities management. All the employees of the example, a tree that suffers repeated defoliation may contractors delivering these services to core DEFRA succumb to other environmental factors. This means earn the national minimum wage or above, but not all that it would be very difficult to attribute the death to a earn the living wage. single factor. Additionally, in some cases many more Core DEFRA does not place zero-hours contracts, trees can be felled as a result of control measures than but there are contractors and subcontractors who source as a result of the pest or disease. 759W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 760W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Mark Simmonds: At the 2012 Joint Ministerial Council (JMC), the UK and Territory Governments agreed to Cayman Islands work together on a range of priority actions to protect the environment. We understand that, consistent with Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign this, the National Conservation Bill (NCB) is due to and Commonwealth Affairs what assistance his Department establish a legal framework for environmental impact has offered the government of the Cayman Islands with assessments, ensuring they are integrated into the national passage of the draft National Conservation Bill since 22 decision making processes. We have offered Territory May 2013. [170834] leaders advice and support on environmental governance issues. I will be visiting Cayman Islands in early November, Mark Simmonds: At the 2012 Joint Ministerial Council as well as having bilateral talks with the Cayman Islands’ (JMC), the UK and Territory Governments agreed to Premier at the 2013 JMC in late November. Environmental work together on a range of priority actions to protect issues will likely be discussed at both of these events. the environment. We understand that, consistent with this, the National Conservation Bill (NCB) is due to China establish a legal framework for environmental impact assessments, ensuring they are integrated into the national decision making processes. We have offered Territory Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign leaders advice and support on environmental governance and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he issues, recognising that this is a devolved responsibility has had with the Chinese government on the persecution of the Cayman Islands. of Christians in China. [170745]

Bosnia and Herzegovina Mr Swire: We strongly support freedom of religion for all, including in China. The prohibition of some Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for religious groups, and the legal restrictions and harassment Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to aimed at others, undermines freedom of religious belief the recent decision by the Dutch Supreme Court to in China. We raised freedom of religion in the UK-China hold the Dutch government to account for the actions Human Rights Dialogue in January 2012 and in our of its peacekeepers in Srebrenica, what assessment he Annual Foreign and Commonwealth Office Report on has made of the implications of that decision for the Human Rights and Democracy, which we last published readiness of UK allies to support UN missions. [170766] on 15 April 2013, and in the quarterly updates to that.

Mark Simmonds: The Dutch Supreme Court ruled Colombia that that any read across to other UN Missions would be limited because of the unique circumstances. Any Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for future assessment would depend on the nature of the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent individual Troop Contributing Country and its relationship discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for with the UN, but also on events on the ground. We Business, Innovation and Skills regarding human rights assess, however, that this ruling is unlikely to impact in Colombia and the trade agreement between the EU significantly on the thinking of our allies vis-à-vis their and Colombia. [171072] support for UN peacekeeping. The UK remains committed to ensuring that the UN delivers effective and efficient Mr Swire: Both the Secretary of State for Foreign peacekeeping, and are supportive of those countries and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the who wish to provide peacekeepers to UN Missions. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), and the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills Cayman Islands (BIS), the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), take the issue of human rights in Colombia Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign seriously and agree that the promotion of the UK’s and Commonwealth Affairs what representations his prosperity and the promotion and protection of human Department has made to the government of the rights are mutually supportive priorities at the heart of Cayman Islands since 22 May 2013 with regard to the the UK’s foreign policy. Regular contact takes place unspent money collected for the Environment between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Protection Fund. [170675] BIS at official level, as well as between UK and EU officials, on this subject. Mark Simmonds: In September, UK Ministers agreed The UK is fully engaged on a range of human rights the Cayman Islands Budget, which included provisions issues in Colombia. We firmly believe that trade agreements for the Environment Protection Fund (EPF). The Cayman are important for economic growth and prosperity in Islands Government is proposing a National Conservation developing countries, and contribute significantly to Bill which will enshrine the EPF into law for the first improved stability and prosperity, creating an environment time—setting out its purpose of buying and managing where human rights are more likely to be respected. protected areas, protected species and their critical habitat. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the agenda is and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has to discuss of the next EU-Colombia human rights dialogue; and the National Conservation Bill and the Environment what assistance he will be offering to the government of Protection Fund with the government of the Cayman Colombia to secure progress on these issues over the Islands. [170677] coming months. [171074] 761W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 762W

Mr Swire: The eighth EU-Colombia human rights action plan shows the breadth of human rights issues dialogue took place on 17 June 2013. The next dialogue on which the Colombian Government is working and will take place in Bogota in the first half of next year, provides for a monitoring mechanism once the FTA and the purpose is to raise issues of mutual concern and enters into force. explore how we can work more effectively together on human rights issues. The agenda is likely to be agreed Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for nearer to the date, but we expect ongoing discussions Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his Department between the EU and Colombia to focus on a range of considers appropriate measures as referenced in Article issues, building on the last dialogue, including the military 8, paragraph 3, of the Trade Agreement between the criminal justice system, application of human rights EU and Colombia; under what circumstances he would and international humanitarian law standards and consider invoking these; and what discussions he has protection of vulnerable population segments within had with his EU counterparts about the use of this Colombian society. The UK has discussed all of these clause. [171088] issues in its wide ranging conversations with the Colombian Government and civil society on human rights. Mr Swire: Appropriate measures under Article 8 paragraph 3 of the agreement would comprise a range Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for of carefully thought through levels of response to an Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assurances established infringement of Article 1 by another party has he received from the Colombian President about the to the agreement. The Department concurs with the involvement of (a) trades unions and (b) civil society in Trade Commissioner Karel de Gucht, that such measures the implementation and monitoring of the trade agreement would be proportionate to the severity of the breach between the EU and Colombia. [171075] and could include the termination, or partial or total suspension of the agreement. The clause provides an Mr Swire: We have not received assurances from the avenue for measures to be taken in response to developments Colombian President regarding the involvement of trade if necessary, without being too prescriptive in advance unions and civil society in the implementation and as to what those developments or measures might be. monitoring of the trade agreement between the EU and Discussions have taken place between UK, EU and Colombia. However, Colombia has produced an action European Commission officials within a number of plan setting 54 goals for the government to meet in working groups on this subject. relation to the trade agreement. The action plan shows the breadth of human rights issues on which the Colombian Israel government is working and provides for a monitoring mechanism once the Free Trade Agreement (FTA) enters into force. Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to his We will continue our wider human rights work with answer of 2 September 2013, Official Report, column unions and employer organisations to strengthen labour 295W, on Israel, what assessment he has made of relations in Colombia. whether all bilateral programmes between the UK and Israel are compliant with EU law and international law. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for [170775] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the Colombian President on the Hugh Robertson: The British Government ensures it clauses relating to (a) human rights and (b) labour acts in accordance with our international law obligations standards in the Trade Agreement between that at the very outset of entering into bilateral programmes country and the EU; and what assurances has he with other countries. received on (i) human rights improvements and (ii) international labour standards in advance of the UK’s ratification of the Agreement. [171076] Tibet

Mr Swire: We have not had discussions with the Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Colombian President on the clauses relating to human and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he rights and labour standards in the Free Trade Agreement has had with the Chinese government on Tibet. [170742] (FTA), but we do raise broader human rights issues with the Colombian Government on a regular basis, Mr Swire: We regularly express our concerns in public including when the Secretary of State for Foreign and and privately to the Chinese Government about a wide Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member range of human rights issues, including Tibet. We raised for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), last met President our concerns about human rights issues in Tibet directly Santos in June. with the Chinese Government in July and we will continue The UK pushed hard for a legally binding human to do so. Tibet will form part of our discussions at the rights clause in the text of this agreement, which is next UK-China Human Rights Dialogue. We are seeking consistent with our policy to have a frank dialogue with to agree dates for the next Dialogue with the Chinese Colombia and Peru on human rights. The FTA aims to Government. raise human rights, labour and environmental standards in Colombia. As well as a clause allowing for revision of Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for the FTA if any party is not complying with its human Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent steps rights commitments, Colombia also produced an action he has taken to raise the persecution of Tibetan monks plan setting 54 goals for the government to meet. The with the Chinese government. [170743] 763W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 764W

Mr Swire: We strongly support freedom of religion In January 2011 we published ‘Improving Outcomes: for all, including in China. The prohibition of some A Strategy for Cancer’. Backed by over £750 million religious groups, and the legal restrictions and harassment over four years, the strategy set out an ambition to save aimed at others, undermines freedom of religious belief an additional 5,000 lives every year by 2014-15 through in China. We raised freedom of religion in the UK-China earlier diagnosis of cancer and improved access to Human Rights Dialogue in January 2012 and in our treatment for all cancers. Annual Foreign and Commonwealth Office Report on Human Rights and Democracy, which we last published Diabetes on 15 April 2013, and in the quarterly updates to that. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Yemen Health how many people were diagnosed with diabetes retinopathy in England and Wales in each of the last Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign three years. [170759] and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the effect of US drone attacks on the security Jane Ellison: This information is not held centrally in situation in Yemen. [R] [170712] the format requested. 9,051 people with diabetes in England and Wales Hugh Robertson: Drone strikes against terrorist targets who were included in the 2009-10 National Diabetes in Yemenare a matter for the Yemeniand US Governments. Audit experienced retinopathy treatment between 1 April We expect all concerned to act in accordance with 2010 and 31 March 2011. The actual number of people international law and take all feasible precautions to who were diagnosed with diabetic retinopathy in England avoid civilian casualties when conducting operations. and Wales in 2010-11 will be higher than this figure.

Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment the NHS has made of the potential of HEALTH cool laser treatment for the treatment of diabetes-related blindness. [170760] Cocoa: Cadmium Jane Ellison: No specific assessment of cool laser Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Health treatment has been made for the treatment of diabetes- what recent assessment he has made of the Food related blindness. The treatment is still in an experimental Standards Agency’s ability to monitor cadmium in stage and therefore there is currently insufficient evidence imported cocoa. [170595] to support its usage.

Jane Ellison: Maximum levels (MLs) for chocolate Email and cocoa products are in the final stage of being established in food safety legislation. The European Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission has proposed amending Commission Health if he will carry out an internal investigation Regulation (EC) No. 1881/2006 to set MLs for cadmium into which officials in his Department released in dark chocolate, milk chocolate and cocoa powder, confidential emails to the hon. Member for North East with a five year transition period. The MLs will apply Cambridgeshire. [170605] from 1 January 2019. Where MLs are not set for a foodstuff, the commodity Norman Lamb: The Department understands that must still comply with article 14 of Commission Regulation this parliamentary question relates to the release of No. 178/2002 requiring that food shall not be placed on emails sent or received by the then chief executive of the the market if it is unsafe. Therefore, enforcement action Care Quality Commission (CQC) during the month of may still be taken on the basis of a risk assessment January 2010. These emails were released by the CQC carried out by the Food Standards Agency, as a result in response to a Freedom of Information (FoI) request. of official control sampling and testing. Cocoa products Internal processes were not properly observed on this imported into the United Kingdom are subject to such occasion by the Department and the CQC. Internal official controls. investigations have revealed that this was a genuine oversight on behalf of officials, but nonetheless Colorectal Cancer unacceptable. The Permanent Secretary has taken immediate steps Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for within the Department to ensure that officials who Health what discussions he has had with medical might deal with FoI requests are aware of, and act in authorities on trends in the incidence of bowel cancer accordance with, established processes. The Permanent in the UK. [170755] Secretary has written to the chief executives of all departmental agencies and non-departmental public Jane Ellison: No specific discussions have been had bodies to raise awareness of processes. with the medical authorities on trends in incidence of bowel cancer in the United Kingdom. We know that NHS Property Services bowel cancer incidence rates have increased overall in the UK since the 1970s, especially in men. Although Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for rates fell at the end of the 1990s, they rose in the 2000s Health (1) if he will publish the rent rolls for each following the introduction of bowel cancer screening, property held under NHS Property Services Ltd; which resulted in the identification of more bowel cancers. [171034] 765W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 766W

(2) what (a) criteria and (b) processes were used in Details of the sites and buildings that are owned or the recruitment of the (i) executive and (ii) non- managed by NHS PS are available at: executive members of NHS Property Services Ltd; https://nhsps.micadipr.net/portals/default2.asp [171043] Details of the salaries of the executive and NEDs are (3) what properties are held by NHS Property as follows : Services Ltd; and what the estimated total value of these properties is; [171044] Title Salary (bands of £10,000)

(4) what the (a) salary and (b) pension arrangements Director of Corporate Services 90 to 100 is of each (i) executive and (ii) non-executive director of Chief Executive 140 to 150 NHS Property Services Ltd; [171045] Chief Operating Officer 130 to 140 (5) how much NHS Property Services Ltd has spent Director of Finance and Business 120to130 on external consultants in the last year; what Planning consultancies have been so used; and for how long and Director of Asset Management 1— at what cost each such contract was; [171046] Director of Communications and 130to140 (6) what expenditure from the NHS Property Business Services Services Ltd capital allocation has been used to pay for revenue funding for NHS Property Services Ltd to NEDs date. [171071] Chair 44,000 NED 1 24,000 Dr Poulter: In order to procure expert advice to NED 2 14,000 support the establishment of the company, NHS Property NED 3 23,000 Services Limited (NHS PS) has engaged with the following NED 4 14,000 consultants: 1 On secondment from the Department KPMG Limited Liability Partnership, at a cost of £125,830 All executive directors are part of the NHS pension financial year 2013-14 to date, for advice on tax and accounting. scheme, apart from one director who belongs to the This support is ongoing; company pension scheme. Gallagher Employee Benefits, at a cost of £24,000, for work in November and December 2012 to assist the design of a defined NHS PS, at the instruction of the Department used contribution pension scheme; cash allocated to it for capital purposes to provide short-term financing for its revenue expenditure. The Deloitte Limited Liability Partnership, at a cost of £52,907 for work in July and August 2013 to support the identification and Department subsequently made a further investment delivery of efficiencies; which returned the amount of cash available for capital Metrosexual Health Limited at a cost of £5,175 to support job purposes to its original level. banding and evaluation. This support is ongoing; and NHS: Apprenticeships Mills and Reeve Limited Liability Partnership, at a cost of £48,654 for work during March and April 2013 to support contractual agreements for the delivery of services locally and Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for nationally. Health pursuant to the answer of 4 September 2013, NHS PS is going through the process of determining Official Report, columns 428-9W,on NHS: apprenticeships, the rent that will be charged to all its tenants in the which department had budgetary responsibility for NHS 4,000 assets inherited from primary care trusts (PCTs) apprenticeships in 2011-12 and 2012-13. [170833] and strategic health authorities (SHAs) on 1 April 2013. In consequence rent rolls for each property are not yet Dr Poulter: The Department of Health held budget available. responsibility for national health service apprenticeships in 2011-12 and 2012-13. In respect of the executive team, the Director of Finance was appointed as a temporary secondment Although there was no centralised funding for this from Community Health Partnerships, the Department policy in both 2011-12 and 2012-13 the Department of Health owned company which manages NHS LIFT had invested £25 million in 2009-10 and £10 million in estate in primary and community care. The Chief Executive 2010-11. was appointed from the NHS through a fair and appropriate recruitment process. Organs: Donors The Department followed a full and transparent recruitment process on behalf of NHS PS to appoint Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the non-executive directors (NEDs). An executive search what steps his Department is taking to increase the firm was used as part of the process. number of organ donors. [170753] NHS PS, a limited company wholly owned by the Jane Ellison: We have a number of initiatives to Secretary of State for Health, was created to take that encourage people to add their name to the organ donor part of the PCT estate which did not transfer to NHS register (ODR). Much of this work is led by NHS providers on 1 April 2013. Blood and Transplant (NHSBT) in conjunction with a On that date, around 4,000 properties previously number of partners in the private, public and third owned by PCTs and SHAs were inherited by NHS PS, sectors. For example, people may sign up to the ODR at a value of just over £3 billion. The property portfolio when they register with a new general practitioner, transferred to NHS PS includes care homes, community when applying for a new passport, when applying for a centres, general practitioner surgeries, health centres, European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) and when support buildings, offices and land. applying for a Boots advantage card. We have established 767W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 768W a prompted choice scheme, working in partnership with In September 2013, almost 193,000 patient assessments the Department for Transport and the Driver and Vehicle were returned compared with just over 166,500 submitted Licensing Agency, which requires people applying for a in September 2012. Just under half (47%) of these driving licence online to consider organ donation. assessments were from acute hospital wards, while the NHSBT have worked with stakeholders to develop a remainder were from other care settings. United Kingdom strategy ‘Taking Organ Transplantation The data shows that 179,626 (93.1%) of patients to 2020’ to further increase donation and transplantation. assessed received harm-free care in September 2013, The report was published in July 2013 and builds on compared to 152,701 (91.7%) in September 2012. Moreover, work undertaken to increase deceased donation rates by submission of NHS Safety Thermometer data has increased 50% between 2008 and 2013. They also run multi-media markedly, with 735 organisations reporting in September campaigns, education programmes in schools and 2013 (502 organisations in September 2012). community engagement programmes to raise awareness Earlier this year, the Government created the position of organ donation and promote registration on the of chief inspector of hospitals, general practice and ODR. adult social care. Professor Sir Mike Richards has begun We have also set up the National Black, Asian and a thorough process of inspection that will give an expert Minority Ethnic Transplant Alliance to increase the peer-reviewed insight into all aspects of how each of number of Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic people on our NHS trusts operate. bone marrow and whole organ registers, and to increase The Care Quality Commission (CQC) is putting in donation rates in those communities. place a number of changes to improve the way it inspects the quality and safety of hospitals. It is moving Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for towards a more specialised inspection model, with inspectors Health what the six most frequent organ donations in specialising in particular areas of care, a greater focus the UK were in each of the last five years; and how on culture and leadership, and teams that include clinical many such operations were carried out. [170756] and other experts, and people with experience of care. Alongside this, the Department and the CQC are Jane Ellison: The information requested is shown in working together to develop new fundamental standards the following table. of care. These will be common-sense statements that describe the basic requirements that care providers should Most common transplant types in United Kingdom and number of these procedures from April 2008 to March 2013—includes both living always meet, and outline the outcomes that patients or and deceased donors care-service users should always expect. All care providers Transplant registered with the CQC will be legally required to meet type 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 Total them. Kidney 2,330 2,519 2,523 2,608 2,818 12,798 Primary Health Care Liver1 678 686 688 764 806 3,622 Lung2 143 145 169 175 188 820 Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Kidney/ 151 159 155 173 166 804 Health (1) whether NHS practitioners are made aware pancreas of the potential uses of self-monitoring technology in Heart 129 121 131 141 142 664 healthcare; [170901] Small 4 7 11 12 7 41 bowel (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that patients have Total 3,435 3,637 3,677 3,873 4,127 18,749 access to monitoring and self-management opportunities 1 Includes partial. for long-term conditions. [170903] 2 Single or double or partial transplants. Source: Jane Ellison: Responsibility for determining the overall NHS Blood and Transplant national approach to improving clinical outcomes from healthcare services lies with NHS England. Patients: Safety It is for individual clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) to commission treatment and services for patients Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State on medications which require monitoring, as they are for Health what recent progress the Government has best placed to identify what is needed in their local made in improving patient safety in the NHS. [170902] areas. It is the responsibility of NHS England to support CCGs and ensure that they are safely and effectively Dr Poulter: NHS England is responsible for patient discharging their commissioning responsibilities, and safety in the national health service. are making progress in delivering outcomes. This support may include providing supportive commissioning resources, The Government will hold NHS England to account tools or guidance. via delivery of Domain 5 of the NHS Outcomes Framework, ″Treating and caring for people in a safe Sepsis environment and protecting them from avoidable harm″. NHS England is working to improve the collection Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for and accessibility of key safety data, including the voluntary Health what steps he is taking to reduce the number of collection, the NHS Safety Thermometer, which is based deaths from sepsis in England and Wales. [170749] on patient assessments carried out by health care professionals in respects of four types of patient harm— Dr Poulter: The Government is taking steps to prevent pressure ulcers, falls, urinary tract infections in patients avoidable deaths from sepsis. These include setting objectives with catheters and new venous thromboembolisms. in the NHS Mandate requiring the national health 769W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 770W service to provide a high quality of patient care and The Government has stopped tobacco sales from ensuring that the NHS Outcomes Framework for 2013-14 vending machines, once an easily accessible and often includes patient safety outcomes and corresponding unsupervised source of tobacco for children. Eye-catching indicators that will be used to hold the NHS to account displays of cigarettes, which can promote smoking by for improvements in health outcomes. young people, have been covered in supermarkets and We are also collaborating with Dr Ron Daniels, who other large stores since April 2012 and will be covered in was instrumental in developing the “Sepsis Six” protocols small shops in April 2015. A number of national marketing for treating sepsis. He has been meeting with the NHS campaigns have been run to support smokers to quit. England Surgical Services Patient Safety Expert Group, The Government has also continued to follow a policy the NHS England Children and Young People Patient of using tax to maintain the high price of tobacco Safety Expert Group, and the Royal College of Physicians products at levels that impact on smoking prevalence Safety Board. He is also liaising with a number of and has continued to tackle the availability of illicit National Clinical Directors and the Patient Safety Domain tobacco. team of NHS England to agree potential next steps and The most recent information on young people’s smoking possible project activities as part of their work programme rates is available in ‘Smoking Drinking and Drug use on deterioration. among young people in England in 2012’. The report shows a continued downwards trend in smoking by Skin Cancer young people and that 10% of 15-year-olds in 2012 were regular smokers. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what discussions his Department has had on Sunbeds new treatment methods for skin cancer in the UK. [170750] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what discussions he has had with the British Jane Ellison: Since 1 April NHS England has been Medical Association on side effects of the use of sun responsible for improving outcomes for skin cancer beds. [170757] patients in England. NHS England has established a Specialised Dermatology Clinical Reference Group that Jane Ellison: There have been no recent discussions has published a service specification for adult skin with the British Medical Association on the side effects cancer services. The specification outlines a number of from the use of sunbeds. interventions suitable for the treatment of skin cancer However, information for the public on the risk of and can be found on the NHS England website at: skin damage and skin cancer from sunbed use is available www.england.nhs.uk/resources/spec-comm-resources/npc-crg/ from the Cancer Research UK website. group-a/a12/ The Department has had no specific discussions on new treatment methods for skin cancer in the United Kingdom. Skin cancer treatments in Wales, Northern HOME DEPARTMENT Ireland and Scotland are a matter for the devolved Administrations of those countries. 101 Calls

Smoking: Young People Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many calls the police 101 Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health service has received in each month from its launch to what steps the Government has taken to prevent young date. [170428] people taking up smoking. [170761] Damian Green: The introduction of the ‘101’ number Jane Ellison: Reducing the uptake of smoking by is a significant step forward in the Government’s ambition children is a public health priority for the Government to reconnect the police and public. ‘101’ gives the public because the Department estimates that, each year in an easy and memorable number, helping to improve the England, over 300,000 children under 16 years old try reporting of crime as well as support the police to smoking for the first time. efficiently and effectively tackle crime and disorder. The Government’s comprehensive, evidence-based The total number of calls received by police from the strategy to reduce tobacco use in England, set out in 101 service is given in the table. 101 was launched in ‘Healthy Lives, Healthy People: A Tobacco Control September 2010 and rolled out nationally in England Plan for England’ (March 2011), includes a specific and Wales in January 2012; Scotland joined the 101 national ambition to reduce smoking rates among 15-year- service in April 2013. olds in England to 12% or less by the end of 2015. Calls received by police from the A range of action is being taken by the Government Month and year 101 service to reduce smoking rates, in particular the numbers of young people starting to smoke. We need to influence 2010 the adult world in which children grow up to stop the September 166,320 perpetuation of smoking from one generation to the October 166,027 next. The Tobacco Control Plan includes encouragement November 161,540 for communities across England to reshape social norms, December 147,826 so that tobacco becomes less desirable, less acceptable and less accessible. 771W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 772W

Government will continue to deliver its commitment. Calls received by police from the Month and year 101 service The consequence will be accelerated take up of the 3R’s—both domestically and internationally set on the 2011 tenets of good science, good animal welfare and good January 168,799 for the UK and economic growth. February 157,316 The number of animals likely to be used in any given March 176,490 year is dependent on many factors, including investment April 205,865 in research and development, strategic decisions by May 187,136 funding bodies, global economic trends and scientific June 212,051 innovation. Although progress is being made with July 314,961 alternative methods, increased funding of scientific research August 380,674 has the potential to increase both animal and non-animal September 437,120 work. The increased animal use in recent years reflects October 546,956 new research trends, increased investment, and changes November 747,533 in regulatory requirements and does not mean that December 908,600 efforts to advance the 3Rs are failing.

Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2012 Home Department what assessment she has made of January 1,119,330 the increase in the number of canines used in animal February 1,184,619 experimentation during 2012; what steps she is taking March 1,435,289 to reduce the number of canines used in animal April 1,353,075 experimentation in the UK; and if she will make a May 1,584,306 statement. [170635] June 1,545,613 July 1,716,055 James Brokenshire: Cats, dogs, non-human primates August 1,722,813 and horses are given special protection under the Animals September 1,664,678 (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 and may be used only October 1,774,728 if no other species is suitable or it is not practicable to November 1,706,542 obtain animals of any other species that are suitable for December 1,533,986 the purposes of the relevant programme of work. Dogs are primarily used in pharmaceutical research 2013 and development, or in pharmaceutical safety and efficacy January 1,710,780 evaluations. They are also used when no other species February 1,711,863 is suitable in the evaluation of cardiovascular and March 1,610,079 cardiorespiratory problems in humans. Such work April 1,662,242 contributes to advances in human health care. Dogs are May 1,756,878 also used in the development of veterinary medicines June 1,811,525 and techniques and the numbers used reflects activity in the sector. July 2,101,565 August 1,936,499 The number of animals likely to be used in any given September 1,826,372 year is dependent on many factors, including investment in research and development, strategic decisions by funding bodies, global economic trends and scientific Animal Experiments innovation. Although progress is being made with alternative methods, increased funding of scientific research Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the has the potential to increase both animal and non-animal Home Department how many animals were used in work. The increased animal use in recent years reflects medical experimentation in 2012; what steps she is new research trends, increased investment, and changes taking to reduce the use of animals in medical in regulatory requirements and does not mean that experimentation; and if she will make a statement. efforts to advance the replacement, refinement and [170632] reduction (3Rs) are failing. In 2010, the Government made a commitment to James Brokenshire: During 2012, 495,694 animals work to reduce the use of animals in scientific research were used in applied studies for human medicine or in ″Coalition: our programme for Government″. The dentistry. Coalition Commitment is not concerned with just baseline In 2010, the Government made a commitment to numbers, but encompasses the 3R’s more broadly, putting work to reduce the use of animals in scientific research them at the heart of a science led approach. We will in ″Coalition: our programme for Government″. The publish a Delivery Plan this autumn that will set out Coalition Commitment is not concerned with just baseline how the Government is supporting and encouraging numbers, but encompasses the replacement, refinement these advances and the programmes and policies through and reduction (3R’s) more broadly, putting them at the which Government will continue to deliver its commitment. heart of a science led approach. We will publish a The consequence will be accelerated take up of the Delivery Plan this autumn that will set out how the 3R’s—both domestically and internationally set on the Government is supporting and encouraging these advances tenets of good-science, good animal welfare and good and the programmes and policies through which for the UK and economic growth. 773W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 774W

Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the in Scotland in 2012; and how many such infringements Home Department what assessment she has made of led to a prosecution. [170622] the increase in the number of felines used in animal experimentation during 2012; what steps she is taking James Brokenshire: There were four infringements of to reduce the number of felines used in animal the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in Scotland experimentation in the UK; and if she will make a recorded in 2012 in which action was completed by the statement. [170636] Secretary of State. None of these infringements led to a prosecution. James Brokenshire: Cats, dogs, non-human primates and horses are given special protection under the Animals Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 and may be used only Home Department what proportion of regulated if no other species is suitable or it is not practicable to procedures conducted in Scotland under the Animals obtain animals of any other species that are suitable for (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in 2012 were performed the purposes of the relevant programme of work. in (a) public health laboratories, (b) universities and Cats are primarily used in the development of veterinary medical schools, (c) NHS hospitals, (d) Government medicines and techniques, and in neurological research. departments, (e) other public bodies, (f) non-profit-making Much of the veterinary research is for the benefit of organisations and (g) commercial organisations. cats. The increase from 2011 to 2012 was 12 (247 during [170624] 2012 compared to 235 in 2011.) The number of cats used did increase significantly for use in veterinary James Brokenshire: During 2012 92.5% of regulated research with a reduction in both procedures and cats procedures conducted in Scotland under the Animals used in basic research. (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 were performed at universities and medical schools, 5% at other public The number of animals likely to be used in any given bodies, 2% at commercial organisations and one half of year is dependent on many factors, including investment 1% at Government Departments and non-profit-making in research and development, strategic decisions by organisations. funding bodies, global economic trends and scientific innovation. Although progress is being made with alternative methods, increased funding of scientific research Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the has the potential to increase both animal and non-animal Home Department how many places in Scotland were work. The increased animal use in recent years reflects designated as a (a) supplying establishment, (b) new research trends, increased investment, and changes breeding establishment and (c) scientific procedure in regulatory requirements and does not mean that under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 at efforts to advance the replacement, refinement and the end of 2012. [170625] reduction (3Rs) are failing. James Brokenshire: As at 31 December 2012 in Scotland In 2010, the Government made a commitment to there were 10 supplying, 15 breeding and 26 user work to reduce the use of animals in scientific research establishments designated under the Animals (Scientific in ‘Coalition: our programme for Government’. The Procedures) Act 1986. An establishment can be a user, coalition commitment is not concerned with just baseline breeder and supplier. numbers, but encompasses the 3Rs more broadly, putting them at the heart of a science led approach. We will Antisocial Behaviour: Greater Manchester publish a Delivery Plan this autumn that will set out how the Government is supporting and encouraging Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for the these advances and the programmes and policies through Home Department how many anti-social behaviour which Government will continue to deliver its commitment. orders have been issued to people in Manchester in The consequence will be accelerated take up of the each year since their introduction. [170225] 3Rs—both domestically and internationally set on the tenets of good science, good animal welfare and good Norman Baker: Antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) for the UK and economic growth. became available from l April 1999. The number of ASBOs issued at all courts in Greater Manchester in Animal Experiments: Scotland each year since 1 April 1999 to 2011 (the latest year for which data are currently available) can be viewed in the Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the following table. ASBO data covering the period to the Home Department how many infringements of the end of 2012 are planned for publication on 31 October Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 were recorded 2013.

Antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued at all courts1 in the Greater Manchester Criminal Justice System (CJS) area as reported to the Ministry of Justice2 by the Court Service, 1 April 1999 to 31 December 2011

Apr 1999- Jun- May Dec Total Area 2000 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 issued

Greater 10 2 25 78 236 430 458 225 178 151 105 134 81 2,113 Manchester 775W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 776W

1 Includes ASBOs issued on application by magistrates’ courts acting in their civil capacity and county courts, which became available on 1 April 1999 and ASBOs made following conviction for a relevant criminal offence at the Crown Court and at magistrates courts (acting in their criminal capacity), which became available on 2 December 2002. 2 Prior to the creation of the Ministry of Justice on 9 May 2007, numbers of ASBOs issued were reported to Home Office by the Court Service. Note: Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Prepared by Justice Statistics Analytical Services within the Ministry of Justice

DNA: Databases (MPS) on behalf of UK CT policing. Due to the sensitive nature of the CT DNA database it is not Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the possible to confirm the number of profiles held. Home Department what DNA databases are currently held by the Government; what the function is of each; how many people are included on each; where each Drugs: Misuse database is held; for how long each database has been open; and where each such database will be held after Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Government’s reforms of national policing are Home Department what recent assessment she has complete. [170291] made of the effectiveness of the Government’s drugs strategy in achieving its overarching aims of (a) James Brokenshire [holding answer 10 October 2013]: reducing illicit and other harmful drug use and (b) The Government currently holds five databases containing increasing the numbers recovering from dependence. electronic DNA profile information. Details below reflect [170836] the position as it stood on 30 September 2013. The national DNA database (NDNAD) holds DNA Norman Baker [holding answer 15 October 2013]: We profiles taken from individuals and crime scenes. It is are currently developing our approach to evaluating the used for purposes related to the prevention or detection 2010 Drug Strategy and this will include an assessment of crime, the investigation of an offence or the conduct of its effectiveness and value for money in achieving its of a prosecution; in the interests of national security; overarching aims. for the purposes of a terrorist investigation; and for purposes related to the identification of a deceased We currently monitor trends on drug use using the person or of the person to whom material relates. It was Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) and set up in April 1995 and currently holds 6,074,866 DNA trends on the numbers recovering from dependence profiles. using the National Drug Treatment Monitoring System (NDTMS). The 2012-13 CSEW shows drug use is now The missing persons DNA database holds DNA profiles at its lowest level since measurement began in 1996 and obtained from the belongings of people who have gone the 2011-12 NDTMS shows increasing numbers are missing, or from their close relatives (who will have leaving treatment free of dependency. similar DNA), as well as profiles taken from the bodies of unidentified people. It matches missing people Further information on the 2012-13 CSEW can be (sometimes via their relatives) to unidentified bodies, found at: and can also eliminate a missing person if an unidentified https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/drug-misuse- body is found matching their description. It was set up findings-from-the-2012-to-2013-csew/drug-misuse-findings- in April 2010 and currently holds 895 DNA profiles. from-the-2012-to-2013-crime-survey-for-england-and-wales The vulnerable persons DNA database holds DNA Further information on the 2011-12 NDTMS can be profiles of people who are at risk of harm (for instance found at: due to child sexual exploitation or honour-based violence) http://www.nta.nhs.uk/uploads/ and who have asked for their profile to be added. If the statisticsfromndtms201112vol1thenumbersfinal.pdf person subsequently goes missing, their profile can be checked against the main NDNAD to see if they match Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for the to any material such as blood or an unidentified body Home Department when the next review of the found at a crime scene, helping the police to investigate Government’s drug strategy Reducing Demand, Restricting their disappearance. It was set up in March 2011 and Supply, Building Recovery: Supporting People to Live a currently holds 1,967 DNA profiles. Drug Free Life, will be conducted; and whether the The police elimination database holds DNA profiles terms of reference will be the same as those used in for police officers and staff. These profiles are used for previous reviews. [170837] elimination purposes in criminal casework. It was set up in August 2000 and currently holds 127,100 profiles. Norman Baker [holding answer 15 October 2013]: These four databases are run by the Home Office, The first annual review of the Government’s Drug having been transferred from the National Policing Strategy ‘Reducing Demand, Restricting Supply, Building Improvement Agency (NPIA) on its closure. Recovery: Supporting People to Live a Drug Free Life’ The counter-terrorism (CT) DNA database holds was published on 17 May 2012. The second drug strategy profiles retained specifically for the purposes of national annual review has been conducted, using the same security. It was established in July 2006 and is managed terms of reference as those used in the first review. We and maintained by the Metropolitan Police Service are aiming to publish the document in the near future. 777W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 778W

Knives: Amnesties Failure to abide by these regulations may give rise to misconduct proceedings under the Police (Conduct) Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for the Regulations 2012. Further, it is a criminal offence under Home Department how many knife amnesties were section 100 of the Representation of the People Act held in each police authority area in each year since 1983 for a police officer to canvass in a parliamentary 2010. [170566] or local election. There is similar legislation applicable to European Parliament, Welsh Assembly and Police Norman Baker [holding answer 14 October 2013]: and Crime Commissioner elections, and local referendums. The Home Office does not hold this information centrally. Security Guards This information is held by the individual police forces. Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Knives: Crime Department pursuant to the statement of 5 September 2013, Official Report, column 30WS, on regulatory regime: private security industry, what discussions she is Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for the having with the security industry on these proposals; Home Department what assessment she has made of and if she expects to bring legislative proposals in this the adequacy of existing stop and search powers for area before May 2014. [170286] reducing knife crime in nightclubs and other late night establishments. [170588] James Brokenshire [holding answer 10 October 2013]: The Government is planning to lay secondary legislation Norman Baker [holding answer 14 October 2013]: for the regulation of businesses in the private security There has been no formal Home Office assessment into industry during this parliamentary session, which will the adequacy of existing stop and search powers for end in spring 2014. The Government is working closely reducing knife crime in night clubs and other late night with the Security Industry Authority and those in the establishments. industry to help prepare these reforms. Licensed premises, such as nightclubs, employ Security Industry Authority licensed door supervisors who may refuse entry to individuals whom they consider pose a INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT risk. Afghanistan Under section 1 of the Police And Criminal Evidence Act 1984, police officers have the power to stop and Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for search a person who is reasonably suspected of carrying International Development (1) how much in total has an offensive weapon. been spent to date on the Bost Airfield and Agricultural Business Park in Afghanistan; and what the original Performance Appraisal budget was for both those projects; [169290] (2) whether the Bost Airfield and Agricultural Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Business Park received funding through (a) the the Home Department what proportion of (a) disabled Helmand Growth Fund and (b) other budgets held by and (b) all other staff employed by her Department her Department; and what the (i) monetary value and received each level of performance rating in their end of (ii) cost headings were of that funding. [169243] year performance assessment for 2012-13. [170466] Justine Greening: As part of a programme approved under the previous Government in 2009, DFID spent a James Brokenshire: For the period 2012-13, of those total of £8.42 million on the Bost Airfield and Agricultural staff who made a positive statement about their disability Business Park in Afghanistan. This was funded partly status: through the Helmand Growth Programme and partly 12.9% of disabled staff were in the top category, 75.0% were in through other budgets. the middle and 12.1% were in the lower. Since 2010, Ministers have assessed that this programme 21.4% of non-disabled staff were in the top category, 72.1% did not represent value for taxpayers money and work were in the middle and 6.5% were in the lower. on the Agricultural Business Park programme has been discontinued. Police: Political Activities Burma

Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what his policy is on participation International Development if she will promote the rational by police officers in political campaigning. [900470] use of antibiotics in obstetrics in Burma’s health system. [170697] Damian Green [holding answer 15 October 2013]: Participation by police officers in political campaigning Mr Duncan: DFID programmes, including in Burma, is prohibited by law. Schedule 1 to the Police Regulations follow international guidelines for antibiotic use. Guidelines 2003 states that: for antibiotic use in maternal health services follow “A member of a police force shall at all times abstain from any international best practice. activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of his duties or which is likely to give rise to the impression amongst Meg Munn: Toask the Secretary of State for International members of the public that it may so interfere... A member of a Development what support she is providing to Burma police force shall in particular... not take any active part in to ensure that family planning and reproductive health politics”. services are being offered to all communities. [170699] 779W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 780W

Mr Duncan: The UK supports the Three Millennium Jeremy Wright: The proportion of people being bailed Development Goal Trust Fund in Burma and has allocated has remained stable over the past five years, The total £80 million over four financial years (2012 to 2016) in number of offences committed by those granted on bail support of the fund. 70% of this is allocated to support has reduced by 23% from around 173,000 in 2007 to access to essential health services for maternal and child around 132,000 in 2012. health as well as sexual and reproductive health rights The court always has to make an assessment of the and family planning. The fund operates across the risks involved on releasing the defendant on bail to the whole country, with a particular focus on seven vulnerable public or the administration of justice, and it is the states and divisions. courts that are best placed to weigh up all the relevant Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for factors. We expect the police and courts to take extreme International Development what support she is providing care when making a decision to grant bail and the to Burma to develop its health system. [R] [170700] overwhelming majority of people bailed do not reoffend while on bail. Where a person does commit an offence Mr Duncan: The UK supports the Three Millennium while on bail, this must be treated as an aggravating Development Goal Fund—the major health trust fund factor when sentencing for that offence. in Burma. So far the UK has allocated £80 million over four financial years (2012 to 2016) in support of the I refer the right hon. Member to the reply given on 6 fund. One of its objectives is to help the Burmese February 2013, Official Report, column 300W: Ministry of Health provide more equitable, affordable http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/ and quality health services to the most vulnerable cmhansrd/cm130206/text/ populations within Burma. 130206w0004.htm#130206116004317 As there has been some time between this question Developing Countries: Health Services and the one referred to above, there are an additional nine months of data available which are given in Tables 2 John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for and 3. International Development if she will take steps to ensure the dissemination and training of health personnel Table 1 shows the number of offenders in each year in essential medicine treatment guidelines and supervision who have committed an offence while on bail between in projects supported by her Department. [170698] May 2005 and the end of March 2013. Please note that the last year ends in March in line with published data Mr Duncan: The World Health Organisation advises and therefore only includes 11 months. national governments on essential drug lists in the Table 1: Number of offenders in each year between May 2005 and the countries in which DFID works. In addition it provides end of March 2013 who have committed an offence while on bail, support for the development of guidelines on the use of England and Wales essential medicines and generic drugs. DFID emphasises Offenders1 the importance of the appropriate use of medicines, and management of prescribing practice in its policy May 2005 to April 2006 64,192 dialogue with Ministries of Health. May 2006 to April 2007 70,166 May 2007 to April 2008 78,518 JUSTICE May 2008 to April 2009 74,534 Bail May 2009 to April 2010 74,648 May 2010 to April 2011 71,896 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice May 2011 to April 2012 66,820 how many people granted bail committed offences May 2012 to March 2013 53,897 while on bail; and what offences were committed in 1 An offender may appear more than once, if they have committed an each month since May 2010. [166031] offence while on bail in separate years

Table 2: Number of offences committed by those granted bail1 in each month in 2012, England and Wales Class July August September October November December

Breach offences 944 792 777 904 840 657 Burglary 572 512 516 586 579 408 Criminal damage 115 112 132 117 106 76 Drug offences 1,061 1,107 1,032 1,062 986 759 Fraud and forgery 232 255 219 257 266 149 Indictable motoring offences 36 33 34 36 53 41 Other indictable offences 887 911 800 978 913 637 Robbery 185 142 145 191 194 147 Sexual offences 36 52 51 59 54 44 Summary motoring offences 747 764 618 771 743 590 Summary offences excluding 3,091 3,052 2,747 2,871 2,714 2,047 motoring Theft and handling stolen goods 3,055 3,203 2,733 3,072 3,117 2,290 Violence against the person 760 756 663 667 676 593

Total2 11,721 11,691 10,469 11,571 11,247 8,439 Source: Ministry of Justice 781W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 782W

Table 3: Number of offences committed by those granted bail1 in each departmental business travel. In the latest year for which month in 20133, England and Wales figures are available (2011-12), the Ministry of Justice Class January February March spent £389.74 on offsetting costs under the GCOF Breach offences 783 647 696 scheme compared to £1,431 in 2010-11. Although CO2 Burglary 462 422 473 emissions have remained fairly steady, the cost of carbon Criminal damage 107 84 75 offsetting has significantly reduced and fallen from £12.00 to £0.68 per tonne over the past three years. Drug offences 1,032 864 821 Fraud and forgery 222 254 267 Indictable motoring 37 36 42 Convention on the Protection of the European offences Communities’ Financial Interests Other indictable 770 729 627 offences Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for Robbery 115 160 129 Justice (1) how many convictions were handed down in Sexual offences 68 43 65 the UK in each of the last five years for acts the UK is Summary motoring 619 597 575 required to criminalise under the First Protocol to offences the Convention on the protection of the European Summary offences 2,763 2,177 2,040 Communities’ financial interests; and what the excluding motoring sentence was for each of these convictions; [171027] Theft and handling 2,946 2,573 2,445 stolen goods (2) how many convictions were handed down in the Violence against the 644 543 504 UK in each of the last five years for acts the UK is person required to criminalise under the Convention on the protection of the European Communities’ financial Total2 10,571 9,131 8,760 interests; what the sentence was for each of these 1The bail included in this table includes all people granted bail, convictions; and how much money the offence related including police bail (prior to first court appearance), and court bail to in each case; [171028] (both magistrates and crown court). For further information (3) how many convictions were handed down in the regarding bail please see the Court Proceedings section of Criminal Justice Statistics publication: UK in each of the last five years for acts the UK is http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/criminal-justice/criminal-justice- required to criminalise under the Second Protocol statistics to the Convention on the protection of the European 2 Includes a small number of crimes which fall outside of any of the Communities’ financial interests; and what the other categories. sentence or penalty was for each of these convictions. 3 2013 only includes January to March in line with published [170998] information. Source: Ministry of Justice Nicky Morgan: I have been asked to reply on behalf Due to the differences between the way offences of the Treasury. committed on bail and the number of people given bail The UK is compliant with all the requirements of the are counted, along with issues around dates, it is not Convention, First Protocol and Second Protocol on the possible to directly compare the figures. It is therefore protection of the European Communities’ financial not possible to gain an accurate proportion of those interests via the Theft Act 1968, Criminal Justice Act who are given bail by the police or courts, who then go 1993, the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, Fraud Act 2006, on to commit an offence while on bail. and the Bribery Act of 2010. The Government has no There are known issues with PNC data on offences plans to repeal this legislation and cooperation will committed while on bail. In particular the recording of continue as it does under current practice. information on whether or not the offence was committed The Government does not hold data relating specifically while the offender was on bail is known to be incomplete. to the protection of the European Communities’ financial This is because the police have available to them a interests. However, the Commission’s estimates of number of ways of recording the bail status of an irregularities reported as fraudulent in their latest Fight offender of which the ‘offence committed on bail’ field Against Fraud report can be found here: on the PNC is one. For operational purposes police http://ec.europa.eu/anti_fraud/about-us/reports/communities- forces make differing use of these various sources and reports/index_en.htm as a result figures derived purely from the PNC do not provide a complete picture of these offences, and therefore and the European Anti-Fraud Office Report: changes over time. These data may not represent real http://ec.europa.eu/anti_fraud/about-us/reports/olaf-report/ changes in offending while on bail. both published online annually. Carbon Emissions Drugs: Crime David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much his Department spent on the Government Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Carbon Offsetting Framework in the latest year for Justice with reference to the answers of 25 April 2013, which figures are available. [169862] Official Report, columns 1298-1302W, if he will provide the latest data available on the number of offenders Mr Vara: The Ministry of Justice participates in the cautioned for and found guilty of (a) possession of Department for Energy and Climate Change administered drugs offences and (b) cannabis possession offences in Government Carbon Offsetting Framework (GCOF) England and Wales; and if he will make a statement. scheme, which offsets carbon emissions related to [169781] 783W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 784W

Damian Green: The number of cautions given for 1 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are drugs offences has fallen as has the number of those accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems being given for the offence of cannabis possession. The generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care overall use of cautions is also declining. should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are The decision whether to offer a caution is an operational used. matter for the police and in some circumstances the 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons CPS depending on the circumstances of the offence and for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they offender. The Government is clear that serious offences were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is should always be brought to court, and to ensure that imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more there is increased public confidence in the justice system, offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory recently announced changes to stop the use of cautions maximum penalty is the most severe. for indictable only offences and certain serious either 3 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and way offences unless there are exceptional circumstances August 2008. 4 Data includes S.5(2) and schedule 4 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971— and a senior, police officer, as well as the CPS for certain “Having possession of a controlled drug—Cannabis or cannabis cases, has agreed that a caution should be administered. resin”. We are making these changes to ensure that those who Source: admit to serious offences are dealt with appropriately. Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

Data detailing the number of offenders cautioned for Legal Aid Scheme all drug offences and for cannabis possession offences in England and Wales, 2007 to 2012 can be viewed in Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1. Data detailing the number of offenders convicted Justice what recent assessment he has made of the of all drug offences, together with separate data for effects of changes to legal aid on small- and medium-sized those convicted of possession of cannabis in England firms of solicitors. [170294] and Wales, 2007 to 2012 can be viewed in Table 2. Mr Vara: On 5 September 2013 the Government Table 1: Offenders cautioned for possession of drugs offences, England and Wales, 2007-121, 2, 3 published its response to the ‘Transforming Legal Aid: delivering a more credible and efficient system’consultation, Offence 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 and, simultaneously, published proposals for further consultation on a modified model of procurement for criminal legal aid and two options for revising the All drug 39,667 43,582 39,652 36,007 37,320 34,100 criminal advocacy fee scheme. This response, ‘Transforming possession offences Legal Aid; Next Steps’, and the seven accompanying impact assessments outline our assessment of the impact Of which: on micro, small, and medium sized enterprises (as defined under the Companies Act 2006), which constitute the majority of current legal aid providers. Possession 21,247 22,823 20,609 18,870 19,255 16,985 of Although we have decided to proceed with the proposed cannabis4 reforms to civil fees, this is in the context of the outcome of the 2013 civil legal aid tender process for contracts, 1 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences which reflected the scope reforms introduced by the were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When an Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders offender has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same Act 2012 (LASPO). Overall, this tender was significantly time the principal offence is the more serious offence. 2 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into oversubscribed which indicates that there currently remains force nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under a strong appetite among providers to do legal aid work. 18 and replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These figures This does not tell us whether there will be a sufficient have been included in the totals. number of providers in the market in the long-term, 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are and the actual current viability of any contracted firm accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems or how this might be impacted by the fee changes. generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care However, it does suggest that there is currently competition should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their for work and therefore scope for at least some providers inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are to withdraw from the market while still maintaining a used. sustainable market supply. 4 Data includes S.5(2) and schedule 4 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971— “Having possession of a controlled drug—Cannabis or cannabis We have been clear we must continue to bear down resin”. on the cost of legal aid, including around £1 billion of Source: taxpayers’ money spent on criminal legal aid a year, to Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. ensure we are getting the best deal for the taxpayer. Table 2: Offenders found guilty at all courts of possession of drugs Even after these latest proposals we will have one of the offences, England and Wales, 2007-121, 2 3 most generous legal aid systems in the world, costing Offence 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 around £1.5 billion a year. All drug 31,722 38,087 41,342 43,406 43,162 39,836 possession Legal Profession: Complaints offences Of which: Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Possession 14,073 17,855 21,457 25,188 26,543 24,726 (1) how many complaints the Legal Ombudsman of decided not to investigate because they were submitted cannabis4 out of time in each year since 2010; [170232] 785W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 786W

(2) what recent representations he has received on Jeremy Wright: This information is not held centrally the late submission of complaints to the Legal and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost Ombudsman; and if he will make a statement. [170245] through a trawl of individual records of prisoner releases.

Mr Vara: The Office for Legal Complaints (OLC) Prisoners’ Release agrees the scheme rules for the legal ombudsman with the Legal Services Board and Lord Chancellor. The scheme rules include time limits. In 2012 the OLC Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for consulted on changes to its scheme rules including Justice (1) what proportion of prisoners were released proposals to extend time limits. As a result, from 1 having served less than half their sentence in prison in February 2013, time limits for accepting a complaint each of the last three years; and if he will make a were extended from a year to six years from the date of statement; [165411] act/omission or three years from the date the complainant (2) what estimate he has made of the proportion of should reasonably have known there were grounds for offenders who were sentenced to a (a) two weeks, (b) complaint. This is in line with the time limits operated four weeks, (c) thee months, (d) six months, (e) one by the courts and other ombudsmen. year, (f) two years and (g) four years custodial The legal ombudsman’s records show that the total sentence who served the minimum amount of time in “out of time” closures were as follows: prison in the latest period for which figures are 2010-11: 819 (2.15% of total contacts) available; and if he will make a statement. [165412] 2011-12: 2,106 (2.79% of total contacts) 2012-13: 1,662 (2.33% of total contacts) Jeremy Wright: The release of determinate prisoners is governed by statute. Under section 244 of the Criminal April 2013 to September 2013: 376 (1.06% the total contacts). Justice Act 2003, all standard determinate sentenced Complaints which had received a jurisdiction check prisoners are subject to automatic release at the halfway prior to 1 February 2013 were dealt with under the old point of their sentence, and serve the balance of their scheme rules and all new complaints which had not had sentence in the community. Prisoners sentenced to 12 a jurisdiction check prior to 1 February fell under the months or more are released on licence under supervision, new scheme rules. and can be recalled to prison at any time if they breach There has not been a significant growth in number of the conditions on their licence. complaints received by the legal ombudsman following There is no statutory entitlement for any prisoner to the scheme rules changes. Numbers of out of time be released before they have served half of their sentence. complaints are 55% down on previous year’s figures. For a minority of prisoners, who are low risk, there is One representation has been received in the last six the possibility of the final stage of the custodial half of months on the late submission of complaints to the their sentence being served on Home Detention Curfew legal ombudsman. (HDC) in the community, subject to an electronically monitored curfew enforced by wearing a tagging device. Prisoners Of those within the eligible sentence range, only around 25% are, in fact, released on HDC. Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for For indeterminate sentence prisoners, the sentencing Justice what steps he is taking to reduce offender judge sets a minimum tariff to be served or may impose behaviour programme waiting lists. [168065] a whole life tariff. No indeterminate sentence prisoner can expect to be released before they have served the Jeremy Wright: We are taking steps to ensure these tariff period in full. Release on expiry of the tariff programmes have the maximum possible impact on period is not automatic and some prisoners will never reoffending. be released. Release will only take place once this period has been served and the Parole Board is satisfied that The introduction of commissioning from 2012 has the offender can be safely released on life licence. Whole enabled the better targeting of programme provision to life prisoners are not eligible for Parole Board release. meet risk and need using a segmentation tool. This approach, together with other specific risk of harm The Government keeps sentencing under review and data, helps guide the commissioning of programmes to is committed to ensuring offenders face tough sentences best meet the need of each prison and region. which protect and command the confidence of the public and are subject to supervision when they are We have implemented changes in operating models, released. The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of such as the regionalisation of psychological services to Offenders Act 2012 introduced Extended Determinate ensure that referrals are identified and managed in a Sentences under which all prisoners must serve at least consistent manner across sites, rather than historically two-thirds of their custodial term and some prisoners site by site. may serve their full custodial term in prison if they In relation to interventions for sex offenders in particular, remain a risk to the public. The Act also introduced a national review of sex offender provision aims to mandatory life sentences for a second very serious produce a strategic plan for the management of sex sexual or violent offence. The Offender Rehabilitation offenders that will be applied nationally. Bill seeks to introduce release on licence, supervision and recall for those serving short sentences. The Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Government is also considering toughening eligibility how many prisoners remained in custody beyond the for Home Detention Curfew to ensure that offenders end of their sentence because of an error by his earn their consideration for HDC by actively engaging Department in each of the last five years. [170030] with the prison regime. 787W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 788W

Data on the average time served by sentence length Child and Family Poverty band and the number of offenders released on HDC are published within the discharge tables section of the 7. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Offender Management Statistics Quarterly bulletin which Northern Ireland what assessment she has made of the can be found here: effects of social security reforms on levels of child and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/offender- family poverty in Northern Ireland since 2010. [900425] management-statistics-quarterly--2 Mrs Villiers: When fully implemented, the introduction Security of universal credit will make over 3 million low to middle income households across the UK better off. Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Our reforms will ensure work always pays and help Justice how many departmental identity cards or passes lift people out of poverty by moving them into work. have been reported lost or stolen by staff in his Department since May 2010. [168614] Fuel Poverty Jeremy Wright: This information is available from 1 January 2011 to 31 August 2013. During this period there were a total of 781 lost or stolen identity cards or 8. Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for passes. This covers the Department’s HQ offices and its Northern Ireland how credit unions are being used to delivery partners HM Courts and Tribunals Service combat fuel poverty in Northern Ireland. [900426] (HMCTS) and National Offender Management Service (NOMS). Information prior to this at HMCTS was not Mrs Villiers: Credit unions have a valuable role to captured centrally and it would incur disproportionate play in the provision of affordable credit. cost to obtain it. Tackling fuel poverty is a devolved matter for the There are no records of lost or stolen cards being Northern Ireland Executive but the Government is used in attempted unauthorised entry to our sites. Ministry working to relieve pressure on family budgets by, for of Justice staff are required to report lost or stolen example, freezing fuel duty, increasing the state pension passes to security as soon as possible and building by the biggest cash rise in history, and continuing to access rights are then disabled immediately. provide winter fuel payments.

Sexual Offences: Victim Support Schemes Economic Development Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what assessment he has made of the availability of 9. Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for services to support male victims of sexual abuse and Northern Ireland what discussions she has had with violence. [169954] Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive on economic development. [900427] Damian Green: This Government is committed to supporting all victims of rape and sexual violence. In Mrs Villiers: I have regular discussions with Northern 2013-14 we are providing nearly £4 million to support Ireland Ministers on a range of economic matters. Last victims of rape and sexual violence. This is more than Tuesday, I chaired the first meeting of a Task Force on ever before. In addition to this over £460,000 is dedicated Banking and Access to Finance. The taskforce comprises to supporting male victims of rape and sexual abuse the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, my hon. Friend and over £110.000 funds dedicated to specialist male the Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid), the Minister IDVAservices to help these victims to recover and move for Skills and Enterprise, my hon. Friend the Member on with their lives. We are also actively looking at future for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), and the Northern provision to support male victims of rape and sexual Ireland Ministers for Finance and for Enterprise, Trade violence. and Investment.

Cross-border Co-operation NORTHERN IRELAND 10. Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State Northern Ireland Grand Committee for Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has made of co-operation between the UK and Irish 6. Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for governments in relation to cross-border issues. [900428] Northern Ireland what assessment she has made of the recent meeting of the Northern Ireland Grand Mrs Villiers: The relationship between the UK and Committee. [900424] Ireland has never been better, as emphasised by the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach at their summit in Mrs Villiers: The Northern Ireland Grand Committee March. is a valuable forum for debating Northern Ireland issues. We work closely with the Irish Government on a The recent meeting in Belfast on 9 September provided range of matters, including security co-operation. Further an opportunity to reaffirm the importance the House of cross-border co-operation takes place between the Northern Commons places on Northern Ireland matters. Ireland Executive and the Irish Government. 789W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 790W

Derry/Londonderry made of the security situation in Northern Ireland; and if she will make a statement. [900432] 11. Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans she has to support Mrs Villiers: The threat level in Northern Ireland Derry/Londonderry following the city’s year as UK remains Severe, with persistent planning and targeting city of culture. [900429] by terrorists. However, action by the PSNI and its partners continues to keep the pressure on these terrorist Mrs Villiers: Derry/Londonderry is having a spectacular groups. year. I have visited the city on a number of occasions to support city of culture events including the All Ireland Fleadh in August. SCOTLAND Personal Income Good Friday Agreement Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for 12. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what the average disposable income is in each Northern Ireland what assessment she has made of the constituency in Scotland. [171020] Government’s implementation of its responsibilities under the Good Friday agreement. [900430] Mr Alistair Carmichael: The only sustainable way to raise living standards is to tackle the country’s economic Mrs Villiers: The Government is fully supportive of problems head on. We appreciate that times are tough the Belfast Agreement and its successors and the institutions and budgets are squeezed, and that is why we have they established. taken continued action to help with the cost of living, These institutions have delivered unprecedented political including the increase of the tax-free personal allowance stability in Northern Ireland and we will continue to to £10,000 from April 2014—saving a typical taxpayer work enthusiastically with the Executive on rebalancing £705 a year. the economy and building a cohesive and shared society. The Office for National Statistics publishes official annual data on regional disposable income. This official Security Situation statistic provides data for Gross Disposable Household Income (GDHI) estimates at current prices for the 12 14. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State regions and countries of the UK. at NUTS 3 level. A for Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has table for the latest available year 2011 follows.

2011

Scotland 2011 £15,654 Gross Disposable Household Income (GDHI) per head at current basic prices in 2011 Eastern Scotland £15,846 South Western £14,903 North Eastern £17,968 Highlands and £16,239 Scotland Scotland Islands Angus and Dundee £14,641 East £16,507 Aberdeen City £17,968 Caithness and £16,049 City Dunbartonshire, and Sutherland West Aberdeenshire and Ross and Dunbartonshire Cromarty and Helensburgh and Lomond Clackmannanshire £14,434 Dumfries and £15,256 Inverness and £16,530 and Fife Galloway Nairn and Moray, Badenoch and Strathspey East Lothian and £17,342 East Ayrshire and £14,430 Lochaber, £15,460 Midlothian North Ayrshire Skye and mainland Lochalsh, Arran and Cumbrae and Argyll and Bute Scottish Borders £16,251 Glasgow City £13,528 Eilean Siar £15,084 (Western Isles) Edinburgh, City of £17,323 Inverclyde, East £16,458 Orkney £17,973 Renfrewshire and Islands Renfrewshire Falkirk £14,457 North £14,062 Shetland £17,933 Lanarkshire Islands Perth and Kinross £16,755 South Ayrshire £16,241 and Stirling 791W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 792W

2011

West Lothian £14,959 South £15,322 Lanarkshire

WORK AND PENSIONS Employment Schemes: Young People

Telephone Services Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) how many businesses in (a) the UK Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and (b) Bolton North East constituency have taken and Pensions how many telephone lines with the prefix part in the wage incentive scheme since the introduction (a) 0870, (b) 0845 and (c) 0800 his Department (i) of the Youth Contract; [170391] operates and (ii) sponsors; how many calls each (2) how many employees in (a) Britain and (b) number received in the last 12 months; and whether Bolton North East constituency have taken part in the alternative numbers charged at the BT local rate are wage incentive scheme since the introduction of the available in each case. [170427] Youth Contract. [170430]

Esther McVey: The information requested is as follows: Esther McVey: In Great Britain between April 2012 (a) The Department does not operate any 0870 numbers; up to and including May 2013 there have been 21,460 (b) The Department currently operates 180 0845 numbers; wage incentive job starts, and between June 2012 up to (c) The Department currently operates 27 0800 numbers. and including May 2013 wage incentive payments were made to employers in respect of 4,690 young people. There are no alternative geographic numbers for the Department’s 0845/0800 service lines. A table listing the Information on the number of employers taking part total calls received by the Department’s 0800 and 0845 in the scheme is not available because the Department telephone numbers for the period September 2012 to does not routinely collect these data. September 2013 will be placed in the Library. Information on payments, broken down by geography, The Child Maintenance Group answered 3,340,300 is currently not available. The data will be developed calls to its main inbound service lines from July 2012 to further, in the future, as part of an Official Statistics June 2013. series. Notes: Anti-slavery Day 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. A job start is represented by when a form is issued to an employer when individual, eligible for a wage incentive, starts a Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Work job (full or part time). and Pensions what each Minister in his Department will be doing to acknowledge Anti-Slavery Day on 18 October 2013; and if he will make a statement. [171039] Funeral Payments Esther McVey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), Work and Pensions what guidance he issues to local gave on 25 June 2013, Official Report, column 242W, to authorities on assessment criteria for Social Fund the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane). Funeral Payment applications. [170826]

Employment and Support Allowance Steve Webb: The Department does not issue guidance to local authorities; however, information on eligibility criteria is available on request in the leaflet DWP 001, Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for and is also available on the GOV.UK website. Work and Pensions how many people claiming Employment Local Jobcentre Plus partnership managers, as part and Support Allowance and in the work-related activity of their regular liaison meetings with local authority group were sanctioned on more than one occasion in colleagues, are also available to advise. each year since 2008. [171084]

Esther McVey: The sanctions regime for people In Work Credit employment support allowance (ESA) in the Work Related Activity Group (WRAG) changed from the beginning of December 2012. The Department aims to publish a Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work single set of sanction statistics covering JSA and ESA, and Pensions how many people in (a) the UK and (b) for the new sanctions regime, as soon as possible. Quality Bolton North East constituency claimed in-work credit assurance by DWP statisticians of the data underpinning in each of the last five years. [170390] the sanctions statistics is progressing and at an advanced stage. The proposed date will be announced as soon as Esther McVey: Statistics on the number of individuals possible via the DWP statistics section of ‘gov.uk’ and who started to receive in-work credit in Great Britain via the ‘Welfare and Benefits’ community at: and Bolton North East constituency in each of the last http://www.statsusernet.org.uk five years are provided in the following table: 793W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 794W

Esther McVey: The information requested, in the Jan to Mar latest year for which figures are available, can be found 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 in the following table. Number1 of jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants with a sanction Great 53,185 62,990 60,825 58,640 16,015 applied2 by Jobcentre Plus Group3: 22 October 2011 to 21 October Britain1 20124 Bolton 100 120 100 90 25 Jobcentre Plus Group5 Total North East Great Britain 540,610 1 The Department does not posses data on the number of in-work Central England 121,920 credit starts in Northern Ireland, so the answer is only available for Great Britain. London and Home Counties 131,300 Notes: North East 80,860 1. Figures rounded to the nearest five. North West 74,610 2. The data for 2013 cover the period between January and March Scotland 47,920 2013. March 2013 data are the latest currently available. Source: Southern England 56,840 Resource Management system Wales 27,730 Unknown 1,090 Jobseeker’s Allowance 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest 10 and will include individuals who have a sanction applied2 in more than one Jobcentre Plus Group3 Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for eg if an individual has a sanction applied in the North East and also in the North West they will appear twice. The total for Great Britain Work and Pensions how many jobseeker’s allowance will count these individuals once and will therefore not be the sum of claimants were sanctioned on more than one occasion all the groups. in each year since 2009-10. [170421] 2 Sanctions applied: The number of sanctions applied is the number of Varied5, Fixed Length6 and Entitlement Decision referrals7 where Esther McVey: The information requested can be the decision was found against the claimant. 3 Jobcentre Plus Group: Formerly known as Jobcentre Plus Regions. found in the following table. Jobcentre Plus Groups were updated to reflect changes to the hierarchical Number1 of sanctions applied2 to jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) structure of Jobcentre Plus implemented on 5 April 2011 from 11 claimants by year of decision3: 1 April 2009 to 21 October 2012 regions to seven groups. 4 Number of sanctions applied2 The latest available data is available up to and including the 21 October 2012. Year of 5 3 Varied Length sanctions: A sanction of between one week and 26 decision One Two or more weeks is imposed for leaving employment voluntarily without just cause, refusing employment without good cause, or losing employment 2009-10 315,260 72,930 through misconduct. The actual period in each case is at the discretion 2010-11 386,450 142,220 of the adjudication officer who makes the decision. 2011-12 352,900 114,650 6 Fixed Length sanctions: A sanction of between one week and 2012-13 273,740 86,370 26 weeks is imposed for refusal, without good cause, to attend an employment programme or carry out a Jobseeker’s direction. Payment 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. of benefit continues in full pending the adjudication officer’s decision 2 Sanctions applied: on a sanction question. The number of sanctions applied is the number of Varied4, Fixed 7 Entitlement Decisions: These are questions on which entitlement to Length5 and Entitlement Decision6 referrals where the decision was JSA depends. For example, if there is doubt around whether the found against the claimant. jobseeker’s agreement (JSAg) is suitable, whether they are actively 3 Year of Decision: looking for work or making themselves available for work. In most The financial year in which the decision on the sanction referral was cases payment of JSA will be suspended by benefit processing until made. The latest available data is available up to and including 21 the doubt is resolved. October 2012. Source: 4 Varied Length sanctions: DWP Information, Governance and Security Directorate: JSA Sanctions A sanction of between one week and 26 weeks is imposed for leaving and Disallowance Decisions Statistics Database. employment voluntarily without just cause, refusing employment without good cause, or losing employment through misconduct. The actual period in each case is at the discretion of the Adjudication Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Officer who makes the decision. and Pensions what steps his Department is taking to 5 Fixed Length sanctions: encourage jobseeker’s allowance claimants to volunteer A sanction of between one week and 26 weeks is imposed for refusal, without good cause, to attend an employment programme or carry for charity work. [170987] out a Jobseeker’s Direction. Payment of benefit continues in full pending the Adjudication Officer’s decision on a sanction question. Esther McVey: The ’Work Together’ initiative was 6 Entitlement Decisions: launched nationally by Jobcentre Plus in October 2010 These are questions on which entitlement to JSA depends. For example, if there is doubt around whether the Jobseeker’s Agreement with the aim of encouraging all unemployed people to (JSAg) is suitable, whether they are actively looking for work or consider volunteering as a way of improving their job making themselves available for work. In most cases payment of JSA prospects while they are looking for work. More than will be suspended by benefit processing until the doubt is resolved. 800,000 people have so far been signposted to local Source: voluntary and community sector organisations. DWP Information, Governance and Security Directorate: JSA Sanctions and Disallowance Decisions Statistics Database

Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Jobseeker’s Allowance: Blackpool Work and Pensions (1) what the regional breakdown of the number of claimants who have had their jobseeker’s Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for allowance stopped during the last year is; [170603] Work and Pensions how many jobseeker’s allowance (2) how many claimants have had their jobseeker’s claimant appeal cases against sanctions are on hold in allowance stopped in the last year. [170604] Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency. [170593] 795W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 796W

Esther McVey: The information requested is not readily Social Security Benefits: British Nationals Abroad available and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Members: Correspondence and Pensions what steps he is taking to prevent the claiming of benefits by people living overseas. [170734]

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Esther McVey: EU social security co-ordinating Work and Pensions when he intends to reply to the regulations require us to pay social security benefits to letter to him dated 23 August 2013 from the right hon. eligible UK citizens and other nationals living elsewhere. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr S The benefits are limited to contributory benefits for Harrison. [170627] which the claimant must have paid compulsory national insurance contributions or those with specific qualifying Esther McVey: The Secretary of State for Work and conditions, these benefits are paid for a limited period. Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford We do pay some non-contributory benefits too, which and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), replied to includes the winter fuel payment. the right hon. Member on 10 September 2013. We have robust checks of identity and eligibility in Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for place to protect the benefit system. An individual has to Work and Pensions when he intends to reply to the prove their identity and eligibility at the start of a claim letter to him dated 24 August 2013 from the right hon. to benefit and in any ongoing contact with the Department. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mrs J Social Security Benefits: Young People Smith. [170628] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Esther McVey: The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions which benefits were claimed by people under Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford the age of 25 in each of the last four financial years; and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), replied to and what proportion of such claimants were (a) the right hon. Member on 2 September 2013. registered as sick or disabled and (b) lone parents. Performance Appraisal [170532]

Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Esther McVey: Statistics on which benefits were claimed Work and Pensions what proportion of (a) disabled by people under the age of 25 in each of the last four and (b) all other staff employed by his Department financial years and what proportion of such claimants received each level of performance rating in their end are in each statistical group e.g. jobseeker, lone parent or disabled can be found at: of year performance assessment for 2012-13. [170473] https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department- Esther McVey: The information is in the following for-work-pensions/series/dwp-statistics-tabulation-tool table. Although all of our employees are encouraged to Guidance for users is available at: declare their disability status on the personnel computer https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ system, declaration is voluntary. attachment_data/file/203439/tab-tool-guidance.pdf The Department values diversity within our workforce Work Capability Assessment and is committed to equality. There is a range of complementary initiatives that we are implementing to Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for improve the overall experience of our present and future Work and Pensions how many Fit for Work decisions in disabled employees. We have, for example, helped introduce the Work Capability Assessment have been overturned new learning products, available to all civil servants, on on appeal in (a) Gateshead, (b) Manchester, (c) East disability awareness and avoiding unconscious bias and London and (d) Guildford between 2008 and 2012. are promoting this within DWP. We are also leading a [171080] pilot to speed up the implementation of reasonable adjustments to support disabled colleagues. Mike Penning: The information requested, for new We are improving the guidance and raising line manager claims to Employment and Support Allowance (ESA), awareness of the need to amend work objectives, when is shown in the table below. appropriate, as a reasonable adjustment for disabled Number of appeals heard on Fit for Work decisions in the initial people. Overall, our proactive approach means that functional assessment for new claims to ESA by local authority and DWP has the highest number of employees in Government appeal outcome: October 2008 to May 2012 participating in the ’Positive Action Pathway’ development Appeal outcome programme for disabled employees and other under- Initial decision represented groups. Local authority overturned Initial decision upheld

Percentage Gateshead 1,000 1,600 Performance rating Disabled staff All other staff Guildford 100 100 Manchester 1,200 3,400 Exceeded 13.5 18.4 Achieved 71.8 67.6 East London: Must Improve 9.7 5.8 Barking and 300 1,000 Others—eg new employees 5.0 8.1 Dagenham and others not rated Hackney 900 1,200 797W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 798W

Number of appeals heard on Fit for Work decisions in the initial Number and percentage of initial functional assessments resulting in a functional assessment for new claims to ESA by local authority and fit for work decision by condition group and local authority: October appeal outcome: October 2008 to May 2012 2008 to November 2012 Appeal outcome Number Percentage Initial decision of of all Local authority overturned Initial decision upheld Condition group Local authority decisions decisions

Havering 300 600 Diseases of the Gateshead 200 59 circulatory system Newham 700 1,300 Manchester 400 48 Redbridge 400 800 Tower Hamlets 800 1,300 Barking and 200 61 Dagenham Waltham Forest 500 800 Hackney 200 65 Source: Department for Work and Pensions benefit administration dataset Havering 100 61 Note: Newham 300 66 Figures are rounded to the nearest 100. Redbridge 200 58 The information requested for appeals heard on Fit for Work decisions in the functional assessment for Tower Hamlets 200 64 repeat claims to ESA and incapacity benefit (IB) Waltham Forest 200 58 reassessments is not readily available and could be Guildford — — provided only at disproportionate cost. Diseases of the Gateshead 1,000 74 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for musculoskeletal Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the system and recent finding of the Upper Tribunal that Work Capability connective tissue Assessment places people with mental health problems Manchester 2,000 63 at a substantial disadvantage; and if he will make a Barking and 900 75 statement. [171081] Dagenham Hackney 900 79 Mike Penning: In May 2013 the Upper Tribunal Havering 500 68 handed down an interim judgment in a judicial review Newham 1,200 80 which challenged the process of when and whether the Department obtains further medical evidence for ESA Redbridge 800 75 claimants with a mental health condition going through Tower Hamlets 1,000 80 the WCA process. The Upper Tribunal clarified that the Waltham Forest 900 73 Department has not been found to be in breach of its Guildford 100 58 duty to make reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act 2010, but directed the further steps that should be Number and percentage of repeat functional assessments resulting in a taken in the proceedings in order to decide the question fit for work decision for new claims to employment and support of whether there are reasonable steps that could be allowance (ESA) by condition group and local authority: October taken in order to avoid the disadvantage it had found to 2008 to November 2012 exist. Number Percentage of of The Department does not agree with the judgment Condition group Local authority decisions decisions and the Court of Appeal have granted permission to appeal it. We welcome this as we believe we have made—and Diseases of the Gateshead 100 33 circulatory system continue to make—significant improvements to the WCA Manchester 200 30 process for people with mental health conditions. Barking and —— This appeal will be heard on 21 and 22 October 2013. Dagenham All proceedings in the Upper Tribunal have been suspended Hackney — — until the appeal has been decided. Havering — — Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Newham 100 29 Work and Pensions (1) what proportion of assessments Redbridge — — in the Work Capability Assessment for individuals Tower Hamlets 100 38 presenting with a musculo-skeletal condition in (a) Waltham Forest — — Gateshead, (b) Manchester, (c) East London and (d) Guildford — — Guildford resulted in a Fit for Work decision between 2008 and 2012; [171082] Diseases of the Gateshead 300 41 (2) what proportion of assessments in the Work musculoskeletal Capability Assessment for individuals presenting with system and a cardio-vascular condition in (a) Gateshead, (b) connective tissue Manchester, (c) East London and (d) Guildford resulted Manchester 700 33 in a Fit for Work decision between 2008 and 2012. Barking and 200 33 [171083] Dagenham Hackney 200 42 Esther McVey: The information requested is shown Havering 100 33 in the following tables: 799W Written Answers16 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 800W

Number and percentage of repeat functional assessments resulting in a deliver the Government’s Work Programme; and what fit for work decision for new claims to employment and support the cost to the public purse has been of those companies’ allowance (ESA) by condition group and local authority: October 2008 to November 2012 involvement. [170821] Number Percentage of of Esther McVey: There are 16 Private Sector and two Condition group Local authority decisions decisions Voluntary and Community Sector prime providers, with c350 Private Sector subcontractors and c480 Voluntary Newham 200 44 and Community Sector subcontractors delivering the Redbridge 200 37 Work programme. Work programme total spend is Tower Hamlets 200 41 published in the Work programme stats release, please Waltham Forest 200 35 find link as follows: Guildford — — https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/209260/wp-costs-to-31-march-2013.pdf Number and percentage of functional assessments resulting in a fit for work decision for incapacity benefits (IB) reassessments by condition 1 Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for group and local authority: March 2011 to November 2012 Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has Number Percentage of of made of the performance of the Government’s Work Condition group Local authority decisions decisions Programme. [170822]

Diseases of the Gateshead — — circulatory system Esther McVey: The Work Programme is working. The programmes performance has significantly improved Manchester 100 27 since being launched in June 2011. By the end of June Barking and ——2012, 24,000 people had found lasting work. By June Dagenham 2013 this had increased dramatically to 168,000. Hackney — — Havering — — Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for Newham — — Work and Pensions for what reason it is his Department’s Redbridge — — policy not to employ Jobcentre Plus staff to implement Tower Hamlets 100 34 its Work programme. [170823] Waltham Forest — — Guildford — — Esther McVey: Jobcentre Plus have a major role to play in supporting claimants into work—in most cases, individuals are supported through their Jobcentre Plus Diseases of the Gateshead 200 32 for one year prior to their referral to the Work programme. musculoskeletal system and However, when we looked to set up a programme for connective tissue the long-term unemployed, or those most at risk of Manchester 600 38 becoming long-term unemployed, we took an active Barking and 200 37 decision to contract the programme out to a range of Dagenham private, public and voluntary sector organisations instead Hackney 200 38 of asking Jobcentre Plus staff to deliver it. Havering 100 37 This was done to make sure that we got the best Newham 300 39 results with some of our hardest to help claimants, for the best price for the taxpayer, delivered as quickly as Redbridge 200 43 possible. Tower Hamlets 200 41 The Work programme replaced a number of existing Waltham Forest 100 37 contracted out programmes which meant that there Guildford — — were already providers on the ground with expertise in 1 As part of the national roll-out of IB reassessment a limited the area. This meant that external providers could mobilise introductory phase started in March 2011 and the full national roll- additional resources such as staff and buildings quickly out began in April 2011. Therefore figures are from March 2011 and efficiently. onwards. Notes: By contracting the service out, we could reform the 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 100. Percentages are shown to funding of welfare-to-work provision and move to a the nearest whole number, ’—’ denotes that the number/percentage payment-by-results structure in a short space of time. has been suppressed due to a nil or negligible number of decisions. 2. Condition groups are based on the International Classification of We could also introduce competition between two Diseases (2010). different providers in an area and so drive innovative Source: solutions to long-term unemployment. Department for Work and Pensions benefit administration dataset We know that Jobcentre Plus staff successfully support Work Programme many claimants back into work. But the reform that we needed in such a short space of time could be best Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for delivered, at the best price, by asking external providers Work and Pensions how many private sector companies to implement the Work programme. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 16 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 721 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Economic Policy ...... 727 Voluntary Sector...... 721 National Crime Agency ...... 722 Northern Ireland Grand Committee...... 729 PRIME MINISTER ...... 730 Public Order...... 725 Engagements...... 730 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 16 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 57WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 59WS Private Rented Sector...... 57WS Foreign Affairs and General Affairs Councils...... 59WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 16 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 10P PRESENTED PETITION...... 7P Skateboarding Southbank...... 10P The Right to Silence (DWP)...... 7P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 16 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 733W DEFENCE—continued Aerospace Industry...... 733W Devonport Dockyard...... 741W Employment Tribunals Service...... 733W Iraq...... 741W Exports: Greater London...... 733W Lost Property...... 742W Foreign Investment in UK ...... 734W Mali ...... 742W Foreign Investment in UK: Greater London...... 734W Marchwood Military Port...... 742W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 735W Nuclear Submarines...... 742W Music: Licensing...... 735W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 743W Postal Services...... 735W Royal Mail ...... 736W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 743W Students ...... 736W House of Lords...... 743W Telephones: Fraud ...... 737W Local Growth Committee ...... 744W UK Trade and Investment...... 738W Urban Areas ...... 744W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 728W EDUCATION...... 745W Affordable Housing: Cannock Chase...... 728W Academies...... 745W Fire Services: Pay ...... 728W Free Schools: Teachers...... 746W Growing Places Fund...... 729W GCSE ...... 746W Homelessness: Cornwall ...... 730W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 748W Land Drainage...... 731W Pupils: Languages ...... 749W Private Rented Housing ...... 731W School Meals ...... 751W Procurement...... 731W Teachers...... 751W Social Security Benefits: EU Nationals ...... 732W Teachers: Equality...... 751W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 753W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 738W Broadband: Rossendale...... 738W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 753W Broadband: Rural Areas ...... 738W Coal: Concessions...... 753W Internet ...... 739W Fracking...... 754W Green Deal Scheme...... 754W DEFENCE...... 739W Sellafield ...... 754W Air Force...... 739W Wind Power: Planning Permission ...... 755W Armed Forces: Deployment ...... 739W Army: Germany...... 740W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Bosnia and Herzegovina ...... 740W AFFAIRS...... 755W Defence: Procurement...... 741W Animal Welfare Act 2006 ...... 755W Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— JUSTICE—continued continued Convention on the Protection of the European Dogs ...... 755W Communities’ Financial Interests...... 782W Dogs: Animal Welfare...... 756W Drugs: Crime ...... 782W Incinerators...... 756W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 784W Pets ...... 757W Legal Profession: Complaints ...... 784W Plants...... 757W Prisoners ...... 785W Procurement...... 757W Prisoners’ Release...... 786W Trees: Diseases ...... 758W Security...... 787W Sexual Offences: Victim Support Schemes ...... 787W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 759W Bosnia and Herzegovina ...... 759W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 787W Cayman Islands ...... 759W Child and Family Poverty ...... 788W Cayman Islands ...... 759W Cross-border Co-operation ...... 788W China ...... 760W Derry/Londonderry ...... 789W Colombia ...... 760W Economic Development...... 788W Israel...... 762W Fuel Poverty...... 788W Tibet ...... 762W Good Friday Agreement ...... 789W Yemen ...... 763W Northern Ireland Grand Committee...... 787W Security Situation...... 789W

HEALTH...... 763W SCOTLAND...... 790W Cocoa: Cadmium...... 763W Personal Income ...... 790W Colorectal Cancer ...... 763W Diabetes ...... 764W TRANSPORT ...... 721W Email ...... 764W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 721W NHS: Apprenticeships ...... 766W Parking: Fines...... 723W NHS Property Services ...... 764W Organs: Donors ...... 766W TREASURY ...... 723W Patients: Safety ...... 767W Banks: Pay ...... 723W Primary Health Care...... 768W Carbon Emissions...... 723W Sepsis ...... 768W Convention On the Protection of the European Skin Cancer ...... 769W Communities’ Financial Interests ...... 724W Smoking: Young People ...... 769W Electronic Surveillance: Exports ...... 726W Sunbeds ...... 770W Energy: Prices ...... 726W Financial Services: Pay...... 726W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 770W Means-tested Benefits ...... 727W 101 Calls ...... 770W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 727W Animal Experiments ...... 771W Renewable Energy: Government Assistance...... 727W Animal Experiments: Scotland ...... 773W Tax Allowances: Older People...... 727W Antisocial Behaviour: Greater Manchester ...... 774W Tobacco: Smuggling...... 728W DNA: Databases...... 775W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 791W Drugs: Misuse...... 776W Anti-slavery Day ...... 791W Knives: Amnesties...... 777W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 791W Knives: Crime ...... 777W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 792W Performance Appraisal ...... 777W Funeral Payments ...... 792W Police: Political Activities...... 777W In Work Credit...... 792W Security Guards ...... 778W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 793W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Blackpool...... 794W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 778W Members: Correspondence ...... 795W Afghanistan ...... 778W Performance Appraisal ...... 795W Burma...... 778W Social Security Benefits: British Nationals Developing Countries: Health Services ...... 779W Abroad ...... 796W Social Security Benefits: Young People ...... 796W JUSTICE...... 779W Telephone Services...... 791W Bail ...... 779W Work Capability Assessment...... 796W Carbon Emissions...... 781W Work Programme...... 799W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 16 October 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 721] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Gibraltar (Maritime Protection) [Col. 741] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(David Morris)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [7th allotted day] Zero-hours Contracts [Col. 744] Motion—(Mr Umunna)—on a Division, negatived

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 801]

Opposition Day [continued] High Streets [Col. 802] Motion—(Roberta Blackman-Woods)—on a Division, negatived

Civil Aviation Safety [Col. 851] Motion to take note of EC document—(John Penrose)—on a Division, agreed to

Petition [Col. 855]

Ansford Railway Bridge [Col. 857] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Psychological Therapies [Col. 241WH] A14 (Tolling Proposals) [Col. 264WH] Blacklisting [Col. 273WH] Living Standards (North Wales) [Col. 297WH] Badger Vaccines [Col. 306WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 57WS]

Petitions [Col. 7P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 721W] [see index inside back page]