Tuesday Volume 555 18 December 2012 No. 88

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 18 December 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 685 18 DECEMBER 2012 686

Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) House of Commons (Con): On 25 April 2010, Irene Glen from Littlehampton opened the front door to her former partner Sean Benn. Tuesday 18 December 2012 He came in and, with a kitchen knife, stabbed Mrs Glen 10 times. She was flown to London for several hours of emergency surgery, and mercifully survived. Sean Benn The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock was convicted of wounding with intent, and was sentenced to detention in a secure hospital under the Mental PRAYERS Health Act 1983. On Thursday, a tribunal will consider whether to release him, a mere two years after that horrific attack. Mrs Glen believes that he may attack [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] her again, and is terrified for her life. What can she do to prevent Sean Benn from being released, and what can we do to protect my constituent? BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Chris Grayling: I shall look carefully at the case to CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS)BILL [LORDS] which my hon. Friend has referred. Matters relating to (BY ORDER) release are handled independently by the different tribunals Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday and assessment services that are there to decide whether 8 January 2013 (Standing Order No. 20). it is safe to release a prisoner, and I should obviously be concerned to hear of circumstances in which a potentially dangerous prisoner was to be released. My Department will certainly be able to discuss with my hon. Friend Oral Answers to Questions whether there are any ways in which we can help either to support his constituent or to influence the process, should that prove necessary. JUSTICE Age of Criminal Responsibility The Secretary of State was asked— 2. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): What consideration he has given to reviewing the age of Indeterminate Sentences criminal responsibility in England and Wales. [133866]

1. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): What The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian the Government’s policy is on the use of indeterminate Green): The Government are not considering reviewing sentences for public protection. [133865] the age of criminal responsibility. They believe that young people aged 10 and over are able to differentiate The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice bad behaviour and serious wrongdoing. (Chris Grayling): The widely criticised indeterminate sentence of imprisonment for public protection was Mr Sheerman: That was a very disappointing answer. abolished on 3 December. It has been replaced by a new The fact is that in England and Wales we lock up more regime of mandatory life sentences, which apply to children than any other country in Europe. We imprison anyone who is convicted for a second time of a very four times as many young people as Portugal, 25 times serious sexual or violent offence, and tough extended as many as Belgium, and 100 times as many as Finland. determinate sentences. I make no apology for the fact that it was in 1999 that we changed the law to reduce the age of criminal Kate Green: In a written answer published on 19 October, responsibility from 14 to 10, but is it not about time that I was informed that 193 prisoners over the age of we accepted the recommendation of people throughout 60 were serving indeterminate sentences for public the civilised world that it should be at least 12? Why do protection. Approximately 25 elderly high-risk prisoners the Government not agree with the right hon. Member are expected to be released in Greater Manchester, for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), some of whom will have higher than average social care who believes that that change must come about? needs as well as a need for specialist supervision. What discussions have been taking place with local authorities Damian Green: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman about where those individuals are to be accommodated, found my reply disappointing. I think it entirely appropriate and who will bear the cost? to hold children aged 10 and over to account for their actions, and to allow the criminal courts to decide on an Chris Grayling: As the hon. Lady will know, the effective punishment when an offence has been committed. probation service regularly engages in detailed discussions It is important to communities, and particularly important with local authorities to try to establish the right ways to victims, to know that young people who offend will of dealing with individual offenders. In many parts of be dealt with appropriately. the country there is integrated offender management, which is designed to ensure that we provide the best Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): possible support. My plans for a rehabilitation revolution Does my right hon. Friend agree that restorative justice, will step up the support provided for such people, and a flagship policy of this Government, is particularly will, I hope, ensure that we address issues such as where effective for children around the current age of criminal prisoners are to live after leaving prison. responsibility? 687 Oral Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 688

Damian Green: I agree, and that is why I made the Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman makes a serious point to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) point. The cost of insurance is one reason we have just that it is for the courts to decide the appropriate punishment. published a consultation paper on whiplash claims, in That might well be the use of restorative justice, which which fraud is most commonly committed, an effect of is particularly effective with young offenders. which is to drive up insurance costs for respectable drivers. That could conceivably encourage the bad behaviour Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I declare my that he suggests. interest as a special constable with the British Transport police. Although the age of criminal responsibility is 10, Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): In reference effectively many police officers will not do anything in to the Minister’s comment about whiplash claims, false the case of a miscreant under the age of 16. May we have claims do much to discredit and undermine those who a change to the law, whereby if a police officer were to suffer real injuries as a result of dangerous driving. In issue a fixed penalty notice for somebody under 16 who Northern Ireland, where the costs are much higher than committed antisocial behaviour or a crime, it would be in comparable regions in Britain, what discussions have served on their parents or guardians so that they would taken place with the Minister of Justice regarding whiplash ensure that their children behaved properly? claims? Damian Green: I am sure that the Minister of Justice Damian Green: I am always interested by the expertise in Northern Ireland will have seen the Government’s my hon. Friend brings to this issue, given his welcome consultation document and I hope that he, along with work as a special constable. I shall certainly consider his Members of this House, will welcome it. I would obviously suggestion seriously. always be willing to speak to him further about it.

Dangerous Driving Probation Service

3. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What steps he is 4. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): taking to address harm and injury caused by dangerous What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness drivers. [133867] of the probation service. [133868]

The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Green): The Government have legislated to create a new (Jeremy Wright): As Minister with responsibility for offence of causing serious injury by dangerous driving. probation, I have had the opportunity to see the hard work The new offence is subject to a five-year maximum and dedication of many probation officers and I do not prison sentence and was implemented on 3 December 2012. think the probation service always gets the credit it deserves for helping to keep the public safe. Probation officers Mark Pawsey: My constituents, Mr and Mrs Galli- will continue to have a key role. However, reoffending Atkinson, who have campaigned for safer roads for rates are still too high and we need to explore new ways some time, point out that in cases in which a driver of delivering rehabilitation and reducing reoffending. causes death while over the drink-drive limit but in which there is no evidence of careless driving, the only Roberta Blackman-Woods: I am sure that the Minister charge available to the police carries a maximum sentence is aware of the most recent report from the inspectorate of six months’ imprisonment, a fine and disqualification of probation, published today, which shows that vulnerable from driving. The law should reflect the fact that driving and troubled young people are not being adequately under the influence of drink or drugs severely impairs a supported by the care or probation system. How will driver’s reaction time. Given that the Crime and Courts the Minister respond to the serious resource issues Bill is currently going through Parliament, will the raised in that report? Minister find time to address that important issue? Jeremy Wright: The hon. Lady is right to draw attention to that report, which deals with the interests of children Damian Green: I know that my hon. Friend has rightly who have been in care. We will study it in detail and respond campaigned hard on this subject. I am not entirely accordingly, but the report makes the point that this is persuaded that there is such a gap in the law. If the not simply about money—it is also about attitudes. A driving is below the appropriate standard, a variety of great deal of work needs to be done to ensure that we offences are available, including causing death by careless meet our very important responsibility to those children driving while under the influence. If the driving had not who have been in care, who have particular requirements. been affected, it would not be right for the driver to be We will consider the report and respond accordingly. charged with anything more than a drink-driving offence. Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): One of the particular Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Is the pleasures that I had as Minister with responsibility for Minister not aware, however, that there is still a problem, probation was to attend the awarding by the British in that the penalties imposed by the courts for driving Quality Foundation of the gold medal to the probation without insurance are sometimes lower in cost than service. I know that the Minister and his colleagues are buying that insurance in the first place? Will the Minister preparing exciting proposals with great opportunities take steps to address that anomaly, as too often there is for the development of probation as a profession, but a perverse incentive for young drivers in particular to further measures will be needed to support that, which I avoid paying their car insurance, taking the risk that the hope he will consider alongside the proposals that he penalty will be less than the costs involved? will announce in due course. 689 Oral Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 690

Jeremy Wright: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who 19. Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): If he knows of what he speaks. The important point is that will make it his policy that courts will continue to have we need to recognise the achievements and the contribution the power to impose whole-life tariffs for the most of probation officers, alongside making sure that we serious offences. [133885] introduce new and good ideas into the process of rehabilitating offenders. I will consider carefully what The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice he has said and we will look at what we can do along the (Jeremy Wright): There is settled policy in England and lines that he suggests. Wales that some offences are so grave that they are deserving of imprisonment for the rest of the offender’s Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Will life for the purposes of punishment and deterrence. The the Minister confirm that it is his Department’s intention Secretary of State and I take the view that whole-life to brief the press this afternoon at 4 o’clock on possible tariffs should remain an option for sentences in appropriate privatisation of the probation service, a day in advance cases. of advising the House? Henry Smith: What other measures has my hon. Jeremy Wright: The right hon. Gentleman will have Friend taken to ensure that appropriately long sentences to wait and see exactly what we propose and exactly can be given by the courts, particularly for violent and when we propose it, but what he has just described is serious sexual offences? not going to happen. Jeremy Wright: My hon. Friend is right to be concerned, Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): particularly about those types of offences; they give the Does the Minister agree that the new court and probation public a good deal of concern, too. That is why this service delivery model, by which probation staff have to month we have implemented new sentences, which will provide a statement on the day that a plea is taken, allow for a mandatory life sentence for a second serious ensures that we get a swift, transparent response on the violent or sexual offence, and for extended determinate day? sentences for the first or the second offence which is a serious offence and merits it. Those are new sentencing Jeremy Wright: I certainly agree that we want to proposals produced by this Government to reflect exactly ensure that justice is swifter and that where possible the what my hon. Friend has identified. probation service produces reports as quickly as it can. My hon. Friend will know from his experience of practising Mr Leigh: There was some concern that the measure in the courts that probation officers often produce might be struck down by human rights legislation. One reports in very short time frames, which I am sure is of of the reasons for all the alienation of people from great assistance to the courts and to be commended. politics is that they feel that we are no longer in control of our destiny. Will the Minister today proclaim that we Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I echo the words of the are the free Parliament of a free people and it is here hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt)—there cannot be that the liberty of the individual is determined, not by many times when I have said that—and the Minister some foreign court? who commended the probation service for its fantastic work, which was recognised last year by the British Jeremy Wright: The good news for my hon. Friend is Quality Foundation gold medal for excellence. Can the that on this issue at least we are in agreement with the Minister confirm that the much delayed probation review European Court of Human Rights, because it has upheld will not be announced this week, as mentioned by the our view that whole-life tariffs are an appropriate disposal right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), in the right cases. Let me make it clear to him—I think and will not lead to the break-up of the excellent that I also speak for the Secretary of State—that for as probation service or its privatisation? long as we are Ministers in the Department, its policy will remain that whole-life tariffs should be available. Jeremy Wright: This is a good time of the year for patience and I urge the right hon. Gentleman to be patient. Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): In the light It will be important in what we do, first, to recognise the of what my hon. Friend has said, will he reassure me key role of the probation service, as he says, and secondly, and the British public that under this Government the to do better than we have done on reoffending. When, criminal justice system will treat convicted criminals in as now, 50% of those released from prison reoffend a firm but fair way? within 12 months and a third of those on community orders do the same, we must look at ways of doing better. Jeremy Wright: Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. We are doing two important things in that Whole-life Tariffs regard: first, toughening up the sentencing regime so that the right people go to prison for the right length of 5. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): If he will make it time; and secondly, ensuring that there is more emphasis his policy that courts will continue to have the power to on rehabilitation and reducing reoffending. That is the impose whole-life tariffs for the most serious offences. way to avoid the misery that communities incur as a [133870] result of reoffending, to avoid making more victims and to avoid extra cost to the taxpayer. 10. Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): If he will make it his policy that courts will continue to have Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): Simon Crisp the power to impose whole-life tariffs for the most groomed boys on the internet and possessed and distributed serious offences. [133875] indecent images of children, and earlier this year he was 691 Oral Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 692 sentenced to an indeterminate sentence. However, had Affairs Committee report, which suggests that prisoners he been sentenced after 3 December, he would not have should be compulsorily tested on exiting prison so that received an indeterminate sentence, because the Government they can be given the support they need in the community have abolished them. Does the Secretary of State think as he has so rightly recommended? that it is right that, thanks to the Government’s decision, there will no longer be anything anyone can do to keep Chris Grayling: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s an offender in prison at the end of their sentence even if sentiment with regard to drugs, prisons and when offenders they are still a risk to children? move back into the community. I have spoken to prison officers who are deeply frustrated by the fact that treatment Jeremy Wright: Extended determinate sentences, which begins in prison but then stops at the prison gate. I can we have brought in to replace IPPs, can include an assure him that one of the things we are working on is extended period of supervision at the conclusion of a ensuring that the conditionality we introduced to surround custodial period. We have done that to deal specifically our rehabilitation revolution will mean that treatment with cases that cause great concern, such as sexual and flows through the prison gate and continues after the violent offences. The hon. Lady is right to be worried, prisoner has been released. but she is wrong to suggest that no provision has been made to replace what IPPs did. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Can I ask the Secretary of State specifically about what he and his Department Rehabilitation of Offenders are doing to support former members of the armed forces who are in prison? I am thinking particularly of 6. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): What steps those who have served on operations. How is the he is taking to reform the rehabilitation of offenders by Department helping them with rehabilitation and making supporting people leaving prison who have served less sure that support mechanisms are in place so that they than 12 months. [133871] can get on with their lives and do not reoffend?

The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Chris Grayling: I regard it as a national shame that so (Chris Grayling): It might be helpful if I put the right many former members of our armed forces are in our hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) and other prisons. I have discussions with the Minister with Opposition Members out of their misery and told them responsibility for veterans issues, my right hon. Friend exactly what we are planning to do. As the House the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois). knows, I intend to apply payment by results to the I see the issue as something that we need to take majority of rehabilitation work conducted with offenders forward in the next few months. It is certainly sitting in the community. This rehabilitation revolution will high in my in-tray as a priority for us all. stimulate innovation and open the delivery of services to a wider range of providers with the skills needed to change an individual’s behaviour and reduce offending Reoffending in future. I aim to extend those services to cover those sentenced to less than 12 months in prison. I intend to 7. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): What steps he is hold a series of initial discussions with stakeholder taking to tackle reoffending. [133872] groups tomorrow and to publish early in the new year a detailed consultation paper that will serve as both a The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice response to the previous consultation paper and a direction (Chris Grayling): I refer my hon. Friend to the answer for our reforms. that I gave a few moments ago. We intend to apply payment by results to the majority of rehabilitation Mr Jones: I thank my right hon. Friend for that work conducted with offenders in the community as response. How will he work with local authorities, social soon as we can. housing providers and other partners to ensure that suitable housing is available for ex-offenders? Jeremy Lefroy: I thank my right hon. Friend for that Chris Grayling: One of the things that I believe are answer and for the one he gave my hon. Friend the very important as we build a system of mentoring for Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones). Reoffending is to former offenders is that there should be someone working some extent also linked to lack of preparation prior to alongside them to ensure that they have somewhere to release. As a member of an independent monitoring live when they leave prison. Of course, the Department board, I noted that we placed a great emphasis on has worked closely with the Department for Communities induction and less on “outduction”—preparation prior and Local Government to address homelessness with a to release. What is my right hon. Friend doing in that strategy that contains a number of measures to help respect? ensure suitable accommodation for offenders, such as flexibility in the universal credit system so that short- Chris Grayling: Our aim is to deliver a service that sentence offenders do not lose their tenancies when they flows through the prison gates. One of the failings of spend a short time in prison. the current system is that, as the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) said a moment ago, there is Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I welcome the Secretary not enough co-ordination between what happens in of State’s announcement that prisoners should be met prison and after prison. The contracts that we build will at the gates by mentors—I am not sure whether he is begin while an offender is in prison and will see them volunteering to be one of them. Some 35% of prisoners through the prison gate to ensure that the continuity to have a drugs problem. Has he seen the latest Home which my hon. Friend refers is present. 693 Oral Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 694

Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): Given the abject Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con): Reforms failure of the payment-by-results programme that the to legal aid to date have focused on civil legal aid. Secretary of State introduced in his previous role as Future reforms will have to move on to criminal legal Minister with responsibility for employment, does he aid and, in particular, criminal contracting. Will my not recognise how incredibly worried people in Corby right hon. Friend therefore please say whether he has a and east Northamptonshire will be that his new privatisation timetable for criminal contracting? —the new payment by results—will be equally damaging for offender management? Chris Grayling: Inevitably, we cannot avoid considering all the financial issues that face the Department. We are Chris Grayling: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s focusing on delivering the changes that we must soon comments about the Work programme. About 200,000 introduce on civil legal aid; a number of measures need people who were long-term unemployed have started to come before this House in the next few weeks. That, work through that programme. The Labour party has for now, is our prime focus. been utterly disingenuous in how it has argued around the figures. There are people with first-rate expertise out Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): To avoid there, particularly in the voluntary sector. I will be a 12th defeat in the other place on the Legal Aid, seeing such people tomorrow to talk about how we can Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, the Secretary help offenders participate. Those people can bring real of State’s predecessor promised this House that he expertise to make sure that reoffending rates, which are would not cut legal aid at first-stage appeal in welfare much too high, come down. benefits cases if a point of law were involved. The proposals finally brought forward were so inadequate Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): When that two weeks ago their lordships voted them down are the Government going to produce a strategy on and told him to come back with something better. Now dealing with women offenders and reoffending by women? we hear that the Secretary of State, in a fit of pique, intends to do nothing at all. Why is he breaking a Chris Grayling: Our aim is to do so early in the new promise to Parliament and to some of the most destitute year, but we do not want to rush it. I recognise that and vulnerable people in the country? there is a need to differentiate the needs of women in prison from those of men in prison. The challenges are Chris Grayling: As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, different and our responses should be different. One of we have promised to consider the decision by the Lords. my early steps in recognising that was to separate ministerial I was a little surprised to see the rather unusual step responsibility for men and women in prisons so that we taken in the other place of voting down a statutory could place a proper focus on the latter and their instrument that was granting a concession, but we will distinctive needs. of course review the issue and decide how to proceed.

Legal Aid Sentencing

8. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): What his policy is 9. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): If he will take steps on legal aid. [133873] to ensure that prisoners serve full sentences as handed down by the courts. [133874] The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling): Legal aid is a fundamental part of our The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice legal system, but resources are not limitless. Publicly (Jeremy Wright): As my hon. Friend knows, prisoners funded legal support should be reserved for those who are released in accordance with the legislation laid need it most—for the most serious cases in which legal down by Parliament, and Parliament has consistently advice and representation are justified. It will continue taken the view that most custodial sentences should be to be available in cases where people’s lives or liberty are served part in custody and part under supervision in the at stake, where they are at risk of serious physical harm community. Sentencers are fully aware of this when or immediate loss of their home, or where their children determining the appropriate length of sentence in each may be taken into care. case. However, the good news for my hon. Friend is that on 3 December the Government implemented changes Ian Mearns: The Secretary of State said that the legal which will mean that some of the most dangerous aid system is a fundamental part of the justice system, offenders may serve their custodial terms in full. but we are witnessing a massive erosion of legal aid. Given the attacks on legal aid, on no win, no fee claims, Philip Davies: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for on the Human Rights Act and on judicial review, and small mercies. However, according to the Ministry of the drainage of resources at community legal advice Justice, somebody sentenced to prison for six months centres and citizens advice bureaux, which are so important, can be released within six weeks, somebody sentenced particularly at the moment, do this Government truly to prison for a year can be released within three months, believe at all in access to justice for all? and somebody sentenced to prison for two years can be released after just seven months. Does my hon. Friend Chris Grayling: Of course we believe in access for think that that carries the confidence of the public at justice, but we have to face the reality that we have had large, and if not, what does he intend to do about it? by far the most expensive legal aid system in Europe. At a time when we are still dealing with the financial debris Jeremy Wright: The principle of some of a sentence left behind by the previous Government, it is impossible being served in the community is, as we have discussed to avoid some tough decisions. before, in my view a good one, because it enables us to 695 Oral Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 696 have a hold over the individual when they come back Courtroom Security out into the community. However, my hon. Friend will be pleased to learn that I am looking at ways in which early release in certain circumstances can be earned 12. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): What rather than automatically granted. recent assessment he has made of security arrangements in courtrooms. [133877] Sentencing Guidelines The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant): The security of our courtrooms and 11. Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): courts is a serious matter. Regular assessments take place What his policy is on sentencing guidelines for the most at least once a year and they are monitored at cluster, serious and violent offenders. [133876] regional and national level to aid in the continual review of security. 18. Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): What his policy is on sentencing guidelines for Steve Rotheram: A suspect who had been released on the most serious and violent offenders. [133884] bail entered Liverpool Crown court with a knife he had smuggled through security checks and threatened to kill The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice himself in the dock. Tragedy was averted on that occasion, (Jeremy Wright): Severe maximum penalties are available but will the Minister outline what steps she is taking to for the most serious and violent offenders. Sentencing instruct security staff to be extra vigilant during their guidelines are a matter for the independent Sentencing searches of suspects on bail? Council. Guidelines provide non-exhaustive lists of common aggravating and mitigating factors, and courts retain Mrs Grant: We are aware of that serious incident and discretion to treat the particular circumstances of individual I assure the hon. Gentleman that a full review of security cases. has taken place at Liverpool Crown court. An action plan for improvement has been put together and good Geraint Davies: There is significant concern in Swansea progress is being made. Training in search procedures about violent offenders being let off lightly, because the for all G4S staff was provided last summer and its prisons are over-full with people who do not pose a effectiveness is being monitored. Security arrangements significant risk to the community and because magistrates are now operating to a required standard, but remain and judges are being pressurised to reduce costs. Will under careful review. the Minister ensure that enough investment and priority is given to keeping violent offenders in jail for long Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Security enough that they are rehabilitated and do not go out in courtrooms is one of the issues of great concern to and reoffend? victims and witnesses. With the announcement of the new part-time victims commissioner imminent—they will do just 10 hours a month—does the Minister think Jeremy Wright: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that that the new part-time commissioner will have time to we are very keen to see that violent offenders serve consider security in courtrooms as part of this Government’s appropriate sentences. The length of sentences is going approach to partly putting victims at part of the heart up and not down. He is not right to suggest that prisons of the justice system? are over-full. There is still capacity within the prison system to take those who ought to be there. I remind him that the only Government in recent history who Mrs Grant: Victims will certainly be part of the heart had to let offenders out of prison because they ran out of the justice system. An announcement will be made of space were the previous Labour Government whom imminently to confirm the name of the new victims he supported. commissioner and I look forward to working with her very closely indeed. [HON.MEMBERS: “Her?”] A lot of work is being done to improve security and safety in Emma Reynolds: In July, a young constituent of mine courts in addition to what I and the victims commissioner tragically lost his life when he was fatally stabbed outside will do. Work has been done to improve security, including a nightclub in Wolverhampton. Although I understand improvements to buildings, improved ways of working that the Government have introduced minimum sentences and improved education and training. The provision for for those who threaten people with knives, will the the presence of a court security officer and enhanced Minister consider introducing tougher and clearer sentences risk management have also been helpful additions. We for those criminals who maim and kill people with will continue to make sure that security is a priority. knives? Mr Speaker: I look forward to hearing further details Jeremy Wright: I understand exactly what the hon. in due course, if we have not already heard all of them. Lady has said and my sympathies go to her constituent’s family. It is right that we look again at the range of Criminal Justice System (Women) sentencing options available for offences involving knives. This is an endemic problem and one that we need to tackle, particularly among young people who persist in 13. Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): What steps the wrong belief that they are safer carrying a knife his Department is taking to address vulnerabilities faced than being without one. We have to look at this again by women involved or at risk of becoming involved in and we will. the criminal justice system. [133878] 697 Oral Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 698

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice lives on release. The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to (Mrs Helen Grant): The Government are committed to hear that we are making good progress. Last year, public reducing offending and reoffending by women. We have sector prisons delivered more than 11.4 million hours of a cross-government programme of work that seeks to work in production and service areas—an increase of address issues associated with offending, such as drugs, 800,000 hours on the previous year’s figures. alcohol, mental health needs, domestic and sexual violence, accommodation and education. Jonathan Reynolds: PVC Recycling in my constituency runs a groundbreaking scheme in conjunction with the Mr Wilson: I thank the Minister for her answer. Prison Service and provides offenders with paid work Alana House in my constituency is a community centre for sorting through plastic composites. I am told that supporting women experiencing problems whose behaviour those skills are much in demand in the private sector has shown them to be at risk of offending. It has been when people finish their sentences. The work stops a particularly successful in providing the courts with a huge amount of material going to landfill or being useful alternative to custodial sentences and helps vulnerable exported to the developing world. Will the Minister women to tackle their problems. The centre is in danger look at whether that scheme can be expanded, because I of closing. Will the Minister agree to visit Alana House am told that there is considerable scope for expansion to see the valuable work that the centre does, and to to prisons across the country? work with me to help ensure that this valuable community resource remains open? Jeremy Wright: Yes, I will certainly look at that. We are keen to see the expansion of exactly that kind of Mrs Grant: I know that my hon. Friend cares work, for the reasons the hon. Gentleman gives. It is deeply about Alana House and its future in his Reading good for prisoners because they learn the hard skills of constituency. He has already discussed the matter with a trade and the softer skills of going to work in the me on a number of occasions. The National Offender morning and working a proper day, and we all benefit if Management Service has funded women’s community offenders have the skills they need to ensure that they facilities successfully for a number of years and Alana do not reoffend on release. I will look at what he has House has been provided with funding of £111,000 for described. If we can find a way of expanding it, we will. 2012-13. From 2013-14, probation trusts will commission these very important services for women. They are Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) required to provide gender-specific services and if those (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that it is entirely services are not sufficiently robust they will be challenged. right to make prisoners work, and that the enforced It is too early to say what that will mean for Alana idleness that there has been in prisons has to be reversed House, but I can tell my hon. Friend that I would be because that will lead to prisoners getting gainful happy to visit the facility. employment on release?

Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): Jeremy Wright: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. The Corston report highlighted the need for women’s It is right, and it is what the public expect, that prisoners centres to work with women offenders and those at risk do something productive while they are in custody, of offending. What is the Government’s current policy rather than simply sitting around in their cells. That on continuing to provide support to such services? could involve a range of things such as work, education or drug treatment, but he is right that his constituents Mrs Grant: As I said, that funding will continue. The and mine would expect them to be doing something. National Offender Management Service has funded women’s services very successfully for many years. The Probation Service funding for women’s services will continue at the same level, but from 2013-14 probation trusts will commission 15. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): When these vital services. he expects to announce the Government’s response to the consultation on the future of the probation service. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Does the Minister [133881] agree that one of the best ways to ensure that women do not enter the criminal justice system is to use restorative The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice justice more imaginatively for out-of-court disposals? (Chris Grayling): As I indicated a moment ago, following Will she give a commitment to examine that in detail, my meetings tomorrow with a series of stakeholders, I particularly for women offenders? will finalise a paper setting out my proposals for delivering a rehabilitation revolution. The paper will include a Mrs Grant: Yes, I am happy to give that commitment. response to the previous consultation on probation reform and set out how my proposals have developed. It Prison Work will be published early in the new year.

14. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/ Mrs Glindon: The Secretary of State will be aware Co-op): What progress he is making on providing work that Northumbria probation trust has received the best for prisoners. [133880] inspection results so far from Her Majesty’s inspectorate. How will he ensure that probation trusts continue to be The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice effective in protecting the public and reducing reoffending (Jeremy Wright): Getting more prisoners working longer after the review, given that it is proposed that offender hours is a key priority for the Government. Enforced management will be fragmented across a wide range of idleness does nothing to help prisoners lead law-abiding providers? 699 Oral Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 700

Chris Grayling: As I have indicated, we have some Newquay faces, I hope that the addition of a punishment high-quality probation professionals in this country. It to a community sentence will be a timely reminder to a is a profession that will remain important to us. We lot of young people of what they can and cannot do. need specialist skills, particularly in the protection of That approach will create a system that is better and public security, risk assessment and harm prevention. more appropriate for Newquay. Such skills will remain integral to the way in which a public sector probation service works. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Wales probation trust has carried out excellent community-related work with Restorative Justice local voluntary services in north Wales. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he sees a role for probation 16. Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): services in the brave new world to which he has referred? What plans he has to extend the use of restorative justice. [133882] Chris Grayling: I can absolutely do that. I have visited the Wales probation trust and am impressed by what it The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice has done, and I am absolutely committed to seeing (Mrs Helen Grant): The Government published their high-quality, specialist public sector probation officers restorative justice action plan for the criminal justice continuing to deliver the support that we need them to system on 19 November. It will improve the victim’s deliver, particularly to prevent harm from coming to awareness of and access to restorative justice. We have members of the public. also introduced legislation to put restorative justice on a statutory footing. Topical Questions

Paul Goggins: I am grateful to the Minister for that T1. [133890] Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and answer. I welcome the Government’s action plan, to Sunderland West) (Lab): If he will make a statement on which she referred, including the clear commitment to his departmental responsibilities. the needs of victims. However, if she and her colleagues are to embed restorative justice at the heart of the The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice criminal justice system, she will need to find additional (Chris Grayling): Today, in accordance with the timetable resources. Will she make a commitment now to allocate set out in its terms of reference, the Commission on a to restorative justice some of the extra money that has Bill of Rights has delivered its final report jointly to the been raised from offenders through the extended victims Deputy Prime Minister and myself. The Government surcharge? thank the commission for the diligent manner in which it has discharged its task. It reflected the remit set out in Mrs Grant: We are already doing so. the coalition’s programme for government of establishing a commission to examine the creation of a British Bill Community Sentences of Rights that “incorporates and builds on all our obligations under the European 17. Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): Convention on Human Rights, ensures that these rights continue What steps he is taking to improve community sentences. to be enshrined in British law, and protects and extends British [133883] liberties.” The House knows very well my strong views on these The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice matters, and we will now give the report careful (Chris Grayling): The Government are determined to consideration. ensure that community sentences are effective at punishing and rehabilitating offenders. We have increased the length Mrs Hodgson: What assessment has the Secretary of and duration of curfews and given courts greater flexibility State made of the medium to long-term demand on the to impose programme and treatment requirements. We youth justice system, given that the budget for early are also making the delivery of community payback intervention work such as helping troubled families and swifter and more intensive. Provisions in the Crime and supporting teenage drug and alcohol programmes will Courts Bill will ensure that new community orders have been cut by 40% by the end of this Parliament? contain a punitive element, give courts new powers to monitor the location of offenders electronically, and, Chris Grayling: I think the hon. Lady misunderstands following on from the comments of the right hon. the position. The Government are putting a huge effort Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), into tackling the problems in troubled families, with increase the use of pre-sentencing restorative justice. work taking place in the Departments for Communities and Local Government and for Work and Pensions. I Stephen Gilbert: I welcome the steps that my right hope that we can make a real difference by reducing hon. Friend has outlined. Newquay, in my constituency, offending. The contribution of restorative justice will sees a large and welcome influx of visitors each year, a make a difference, and our rehabilitation revolution will minority of whom commit antisocial behaviour. What help to ease pressures on our criminal justice system. assurance can my right hon. Friend give me that community sentences will be served in the areas where the crimes T2. [133891] Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Last week, the occur? Public Accounts Committee published its report on the Ministry of Justice’s language services contract. It Chris Grayling: That would of course be the norm, concluded, among other things, that Applied Language but the most important thing is not geography but that Solutions does not have enough interpreters available to punishment takes place. Given the circumstances that meet demand, and that the interpreters who are provided 701 Oral Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 702 do not all have the necessary qualifications. Does the T6. [133895] Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The prisons Secretary of State intend to implement the Committee’s Minister recently met council leaders from north Wales recommendations to address those pressing issues? to discuss the long-standing issue of a prison in the area. Will he meet north Wales Members of Parliament to keep them in the loop on his thinking, or does he The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice intend not to keep them informed? (Mrs Helen Grant): Interpreting services in court are at a 95% success rate, and the National Audit Office has said that we should go on and implement the proposals Jeremy Wright: As I recall, almost all the council leaders fully. The contract is saving us £15 million a year of who came to see me on that occasion were Labour taxpayers’ money, and as long as we continue to work council leaders, so I am not sure whether the hon. with interpreters—we have already had an important Gentleman has a communication problem with his own meeting with them—the new system will be more councillors. This is going to be part of a much wider sustainable, effective and transparent than the old one. consideration of the prison estate that we will undertake. As soon as we are in a position to make decisions we will attempt to keep all those who need to be informed Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): The British Human informed. Rights Act provides protection against cruel and inhumane treatment, including the right to a fair trial, the right to T4. [133893] Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): At this time life, the right to family life and freedom of expression. It of year, our thoughts often turn to those who are living makes explicit the fact that Parliament is sovereign, and on their own and are more vulnerable. Will my right hon. that even the Supreme Court cannot trump Parliament. Friend set out what support is being offered to groups Bearing that in mind, will the Justice Secretary make it such as the Erewash community safety partnership in clear that it is the British Human Rights Act that he so their fight against antisocial behaviour and to the efforts opposes, or is it the British courts that interpret the law? of all to bring the perpetrators of antisocial behaviour Which of the rights in the British Human Rights Act to the justice they deserve? would not be included in his Bill of Rights? The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Chris Grayling: The original human rights convention Green): I am happy to join my hon. Friend in paying was a laudable document written when Stalin was in tribute to the Erewash community safety partnership, power and people were sent to the gulags without trial. and to reassure her that this is one of the many areas Over 50 or 60 years of jurisprudence, the European where the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice are Court of Human Rights has moved further and further working together closely. She will know that last week away from the goals of its creators, and I believe that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary published a this is an issue that we have to address in this country draft Anti-Social Behaviour Bill, which aims precisely and across Europe. to help community safety partnerships put victims at the heart of their response to this problem. The Ministry Sadiq Khan: I know that the right hon. Gentleman of Justice is funding a number of organisations, including has done the primer, but I did not mention the European Victim Support, that are working to the same end. convention or the European Court—I mentioned the Human Rights Act. Will he answer a simple question? T8. [133898] Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) Will he confirm that were it not for the Human Rights (Lab): I know that the Minister responsible for probation Act, the extradition of the Asperger’s-suffering Gary has had the opportunity to visit Manchester and see for McKinnon to the USA could not have been stopped by himself the intensive alternative to custody programme, the Home Secretary? which is co-ordinated by the Greater Manchester probation service and has achieved significant reductions in the rate and seriousness of offending. Will he and the Chris Grayling: I am a bit puzzled by the right hon. Secretary of State make a clear commitment that, under Gentleman’s comment, because the Human Rights Act the new commissioning arrangements, whenever they enacts the convention in the law of this country. I think, are announced, that tremendously important initiative and many in the House agree, that the remit of the will continue? Court has expanded beyond its creators’ original intention, which is why we need reform. Jeremy Wright: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising that, and I certainly enjoyed my visit to T3. [133892] Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): Will Manchester, where I could see that a great deal of good the Secretary of State seek to make an example of some work was being done. He can take reassurance from the of the best practice work experience schemes for serving fact that the system we will roll out will reward those prisoners such as the big society award-winning custody things that work. If the intensive alternative to custody and community project at Norwich’s Chapelfield shopping programme is as effective as it appears to be, it will work centre, which is highly effective in cutting reoffending? and it will be rewarded.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice T5. [133894] Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): (Jeremy Wright): I certainly agree with my hon. Friend The Bill of Rights commission report that has just been that we want more prisoners to have experiences, such published has split views on many issues, but a majority as the one he mentions, in the right controlled conditions, think that the status quo is unstable and, interestingly, a and we want to make sure, as I said, that prisoners have majority want further reform of the Strasbourg Court. experience of work as well as of work experience. What reassurance can the Secretary of State give us that 703 Oral Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 704 he remains committed to defending the House from the Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The most vulnerable creeping usurpation of democratic power by the Strasbourg people in my constituency will suffer most from cuts to Court? legal aid. Is it not the case that under this Government there is one law for the few who can afford expensive Chris Grayling: I can give my hon. Friend an absolute legal advice and another law for the rest? commitment. The Conservative party—although not the Opposition, from what we have heard today—is committed Chris Grayling: It is noticeable that time and again in to the need for change and to ensuring that international these sessions we hear what are effectively spending human rights frameworks do not inappropriately intrude commitments from the Opposition. They want to spend on the democratic decisions of this Parliament. more money on legal aid, despite the fact that—by their own admission—they left us with no money in the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the Minister bank. The hon. Gentleman must accept that we have to agree that an essential part of probation for reoffenders take tough decisions to reduce the cost of the most is monitored interaction within the community, and expensive legal aid system in Europe, and we will take that community service can be a useful tool for reintegration those decisions. in society? Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Jeremy Wright: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that Many of us who were young advocates took work from we must ensure that prisoners reintegrate. That work legal aid at the start of our careers. If that work goes, should start when prisoners are still in custody and will my right hon. Friend look at promoting mediation continue through the gate into the community. We want across all departments—welfare departments, health to see more of that and will encourage it in any new tribunals and the works—to help young aspiring advocates system that we design. and barristers make up the income they will undoubtedly lose? T7. [133897] Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend’s point about mediation Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald is important and highlights the fact that when dealing (Mrs Grant) mentioned the victims commissioner. Will with the financial challenges we face, the Government she update the House on what progress has been made must look for innovative new ways of doing things. towards the appointment of a victims commissioner, Mediation is certainly one of those. and when that appointment is likely to take place? Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): How many people Mrs Grant: I look forward to announcing the name do the Government expect to be able to challenge of the victims commissioner within the next few days. welfare benefit decisions at the highest level on a point of law in the future if they continue to claim that it is Mr Speaker: We are now all agog. too difficult to find a way to identify cases and provide Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Very legal aid, despite the Minister’s reassurances to the agog, Sir. Will the Secretary of State say when he plans Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders to end the scandal of making welfare benefit payments Bill Committee? to prisoners serving a sentence? Chris Grayling: We are still in discussions about how Chris Grayling: That is a matter for the Department to respond to the vote in the House of Lords, but we for Work and Pensions but I am absolutely of the view must accept that there are limits to what the Government that benefit payments should not be made to serving and the taxpayer can provide in terms of legal support. prisoners. I hope and expect that the DWP will deal There will always be limits to what the state can do, and with that issue. I believe that my right hon. Friend the we are trying to find the right balance in exceptionally Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has already difficult financial circumstances. taken steps to ensure that the system we inherited, in which that kind of thing could happen, comes to an Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): This week the public end. learned that the legal aid bill for the radical cleric Abu Qatada stands at over half a million pounds and is still T9. [133899] Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South rising. Will my right hon. Friend put an end to that Pembrokeshire) (Con): Does the Secretary of State misuse of public money? agree that although judicial review is important, in many circumstances its use can become excessive? Chris Grayling: I would make two points to my hon. Friend. First, whether we like it or not, we will always, Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree. The proposed in the interests of justice, have to provide some support consultation and the measures that we set out last week, to people whom we find distasteful. Secondly, the reality which we think will make a difference as a first stage is that I share her concerns. I have already commissioned towards reforming judicial review, are essential. We a review of aspects of our legal aid system in which I must bear in mind that only one in five judicial reviews believe there are public confidence issues. I hope to give succeed. They are a huge burden on our justice system my thoughts on that front in due course. and a price the nation has to pay. We will be looking at whether further changes can be made to ensure that we Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): The protect the integrity of judicial review as a valuable tool Courts and Tribunals Service has admitted that there is for challenging the Government, while not allowing it a 55-week wait for appeals on employment and support to continue as a tool that can be abused. allowance in Coventry. That is higher than the 37 weeks 705 Oral Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 706 admitted by Ministers and higher than the national an inquiry into the review of family justice and the average. What will be done to end that disgraceful state Government’s proposed reforms. We have today heard of affairs? that in most situations the judge did not meet children in the looked-after system before making decisions about Chris Grayling: We are doing two things, but the right their lives. Is it not time that judges who work on family hon. Gentleman needs to bear in mind that the backlog justice cases are dedicated to family justice rather than has existed not just under this Government, but under dealing with other cases, so that we can ensure that they his Government. The reality is that we are dealing with are properly trained and can communicate properly a very large number of cases. We are working hard to with children? improve decision making within Jobcentre Plus, and have taken on board the recommendations of Malcolm Chris Grayling: It is not for me specifically to instruct Harrington to improve the process. One challenge we the judiciary on how they handle cases—the independence face is that when we are taking tough decisions on of the judiciary is a feature of our system. However, I benefit entitlement and when people are free to appeal, am sure the hon. Lady’s comments will have been heard there will always be a propensity to do so. by those who lead the family division. It is very much a matter for judges to decide how best to ensure that they Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): have the right mix of experience. Will the Secretary of State ensure that charities and voluntary organisations can continue to provide their Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): services for the rehabilitation of offenders? Topically, Liz Calderbank, the chief inspector of probation, has today produced a report into what she calls the Jeremy Wright: I can certainly give my hon. Friend depressing and flawed care system, in which too many that assurance. We want to encourage the good work young people in care end up in the youth justice system. that is already being done by a large number of voluntary What part are Justice Ministers playing in the Department and community sector organisations to provide the for Education review of vulnerable children placed a expertise that all hon. Members want incorporated into long way from home, often in inappropriate children’s the rehabilitation revolution. Yes, we want to see more homes and other accommodation? of that. Chris Grayling: We are doing two things. First, we are Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): The Secretary undertaking a complete review of how we detain young of State seemed to confirm a moment ago in a reply to people. I am uneasy—to say the least—about a system the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) that the legal that costs a substantial amount of money and yet has a aid bill for Abu Qatada came to half a million pounds, high reoffending rate. I do not believe we are getting it as has been reported in the newspapers. Will he therefore right, and we are looking to introduce a process in the explain why he refused to provide that figure in a new year to address how we detain young people. written answer to me last week? Secondly, I am in regular contact with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education. I believe Chris Grayling: I will have to look into that. I am not we are due to meet to discuss those issues in the next few aware that I have refused to provide anything. The days. figure has been made publicly available. Mr Speaker: Last but not least, I call Steve Rotheram. Mr Speaker: Well, the plot thickens. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): After a lengthy campaign, tomorrow the High Court will hear Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Last the application from the Attorney-General to quash the year, the number of applications for permission to original verdicts into the deaths of 96 Liverpool fans at apply for judicial review in immigration and asylum Hillsborough in 1989— cases reached a point at which they represent more than three quarters of the total number of such applications. Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must resume What will my right hon. Friend do about that growing his seat. My strong sense—I do not have advance briefing issue? on the detail of the matter—is that the issue that he is raising could well be sub judice. Chris Grayling: Our consultation includes proposals to introduce a series of limitations in the judicial review Steve Rotheram indicated dissent. process, particularly to stop people coming back again and again looking for new legal nuances to launch a Mr Speaker: Order. It is not a matter to be raised new case. I believe, as does the judiciary—this has been now, so we will leave it there. I am sorry to disappoint highlighted in a number of recent cases—that judicial the hon. Gentleman. review is simply being used as a vehicle to delay being deported from the country, which is wrong. Steve Rotheram rose—

Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): The all-party Mr Speaker: Order. That is the end of it. We must parliamentary group on child protection is conducting now move on. 707 18 DECEMBER 2012 Points of Order 708

Points of Order Mr Speaker: I understand what the hon. Gentleman is asking and what he describes as all he was asking, but I am afraid that the operation of the sub judice rule is 12.34 pm not undertaken or applied on a selective basis entertaining various hypothetical scenarios. If a matter is sub judice, Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): On a point of and I am so advised, it is sub judice. It is not open, in order, Mr Speaker. During Prime Minister’s questions such circumstances, for a Member to pick upon an on 24 October 2012, the hon. Member for Oldham East aspect of the matter that he thinks it timely to raise. The and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams)—I have given her ruling I gave was on the basis of advice at the time, and prior notice of this point of order—made the serious I believe it to be correct. If I were incorrect, I would be accusation on the Floor of the House that a relationship very happy to say so to the hon. Gentleman. He is existed between: indefatigable in the pursuit of this issue and properly “Virgin Care donations to the Tory party, the number of Virgin so, but he will accept that we must operate on the basis Care shareholders on clinical commissioning group boards and of the rules. He has said his piece, I respect that, and the number of NHS contracts that have been awarded to Virgin that is the end of it. Care”.—[Official Report, 24 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 919.] That assertion appears to have been picked up from a The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice blogger who has since apologised and withdrawn it. The (Chris Grayling): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. hon. Lady’s remarks carry a very serious and clear It might be helpful to say that my Department is mindful insinuation of a potentially corrupt relationship between of the financial pressures faced by the Hillsborough Virgin Care, the Conservative party and the award of families. We all recognise the very difficult circumstances NHS contracts. However, when I checked the Electoral they have been through, and they are certainly in our Commission’s online register of political donations, I consideration. found no record of any donation by Virgin Care to any political party. Is it not the tradition for a Member who Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Is that sub judice? has perhaps inadvertently made false claims or assertions on the Floor of the House to come to the House at the Mr Speaker: That is not sub judice; it is a relatively earliest opportunity to set the record straight? unusual way for the Secretary of State to voice the Government’s thinking on this matter. I thank him in Mr Speaker: What I say to the hon. Gentleman is the spirit in which his comment was made. There is no twofold. First, I hope and am confident that the hon. doubt that if the Government have got further and Member has given proper notice to the hon. Member better particulars on the matter, at some point that will for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) become clear. We will leave it there and I thank him. of his intention to raise this point on the Floor of the House. Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have never raised a point of order before, but I feel that I must today. I tabled a question for Mr Wilson indicated assent. today’s questions regarding the family justice review. The question was approved by the Table Office and Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. successfully drawn as No. 5 in the ballot, but it was Secondly, with specific reference to the hon. Gentleman’s withdrawn by the Ministry of Justice, because it deemed question, right hon. and hon. Members must take it to be irrelevant to its Department, despite the fact responsibility for the accuracy of what they say in the that it had been corresponding with me on this matter House—the Chair cannot take over that responsibility. since last June. My constituent, Mr Neil Brotherton, who His point will have been heard by the hon. Member and is trying to improve children’s access to their family by others, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for putting it when their parents separate, was to have been here today on the record. to hear the Minister’s answer. Will you advise me, Mr Speaker, on what course of action I may now pursue, not just for Mr Brotherton, but for other Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab) rose— constituents?

Mr Speaker: We are not going to have a debate about Mr Speaker: I am happy to oblige the hon. Lady. I am the matter that the hon. Gentleman could not raise. sorry that it was her first point of order, but I am quite However, if he wants briefly to raise a point of order, he certain it will not be her last. My response to her point can. of order is twofold. First, my understanding—I do not wish to be pedantic, but I think it is factually correct Steve Rotheram: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I and an important point—is that the question was not, understand your concerns about raising matters in this as she put it, withdrawn, but transferred. Secondly, on House that are sub judice, and I would never put you, as how she should proceed, I would say that she is an the Speaker of the House, in that position. My question ingenious Member and will know that there is plenty of was going to be that whatever the outcome, every eventuality scope for tabling questions, seeking Adjournment debates should be afforded to the families and that the Secretary and raising matters during oral questions, and there are of State should be considering a possible outcome in also the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee, which the families would need support from the public so there are plenty of facilities open to her. purse for any inquest that might follow on from any Although the Table Office seeks to advise hon. Members decision in the High Court tomorrow. That is all I was where there is a risk of an oral parliamentary question asking. being transferred, the prediction of the allocation of 709 Points of Order 18 DECEMBER 2012 710 ministerial responsibility is not an exact science. It is for Welfare Cash Card the Government to decide where responsibility lies for Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order answering a question, and I do not intervene in such No. 23) decisions. I recognise that they can be the source of frustration or irritation, but they are not matters for the Chair. Furthermore, for the hon. Lady’s benefit and 12.42 pm that of the House, I must make the specific point that Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I beg to nothing disorderly has occurred. move, Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): Further That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the to that point of order, Mr Speaker. introduction of a welfare cash card; and for connected purposes. The principle of the Bill is to encourage responsible Mr Speaker: I am not sure there is a further to that spending by welfare claimants, ensuring that taxpayers’ point of order, but the hon. Lady has been in the House money is spent wisely and for the purpose it is intended. 25 years, so we ought to give her the benefit of the It will alter the spending habits of a minority who for doubt. far too long have taken advantage of the system, getting Joan Walley: I, too, had an oral question down for answer something for nothing. Consequently, I believe that it during Justice Question Time, but was told at the last will change the perception of benefits in this country minute that it had been transferred to the Cabinet Office, for the better. Politicians, the media and those from because the Minister without Portfolio, the right hon. varied walks of life have been complicit in tarring as and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who is idle all 5.88 million recipients of one or more benefits now dealing with it, was unable to answer it as part of from the Department for Work and Pensions. In fact, the Justice Front-Bench team. Will you have regard to however, the time someone finds themselves on benefits the difficulty of raising issues on behalf of our constituents is the time strivers and low-paid workers most need a owing to internal transfers within the Government? supportive society where they are given the respect most deserve in trying to make work pay. Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order, but my earlier statement still applies: it is It is 70 years this month since the Beveridge report a matter for the Government. I say that not least identified the five giant evils that plagued society: disease, because we are in the presence of the esteemed Minister want, ignorance, squalor, and idleness. Members on without Portfolio, the right hon. and learned Member all sides of the House will want to praise successive for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke)—[Interruption.] No, there is Governments for their advances in eradicating these no need for him to rise from his seat at this point, evils, but one remains prevalent today. The “something though it is always a pleasure to listen to him. Nevertheless, for nothing” culture encouraged by the previous Labour I attach great importance to early decisions on transfer. Government created a two-tier benefits system in which If a question is to be transferred, it is for the convenience the strivers and low paid-workers were penalised for the of the Member and the House as a whole that the idleness of the shirkers. decision be taken and the Member notified at an early The Bill seeks to work alongside the Government’s stage. After his 42 years in the House, I know that the welfare reforms to support those hard-working families right hon. and learned Gentleman would be the first to who strive to be self-supporting by ending the “something assent to that uncontroversial proposition. for nothing”stigma of the welfare system. The introduction of a welfare cash card on which benefits would be paid would enable claimants to make only priority purchases such as food, clothing, energy, travel and housing. The purchase of luxury goods such as cigarettes, alcohol, Sky television and gambling would be prohibited. When hard-working families up and down the country are forced to cut back on such non-essential, desirable and often damaging items—NEDD items, as I call them—it is right that taxpayer-funded benefits should be used to fund only essential purchases. No doubt, Opposition Members will say that people would be too ashamed to carry a welfare cash card, but I want to discount that argument immediately. If people did not want to be recognised as being unemployed, jobcentres would cease to exist as people would not visit them for fear of being seen in them. Owing to the differing circumstances involved, this measure would not affect the basic state pension or disability benefits. For all other claimants, however, this move towards responsible spending would support the introduction of universal credit and the change from fortnightly to monthly welfare payments. It would place a focus on the financial planning that will be crucial in ensuring that out-of-work families take charge of their monthly spending. The welfare cash card would encourage that by prohibiting the purchase of NEDD items, thereby increasing the funds available for purchasing food and 711 Welfare Cash Card18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Cash Card 712

[Alec Shelbrooke] own incomes. In the 21st century, it is right that we should maximise the benefits of technology for increased other essential commodities. It would mould financial efficiency and reduced bureaucracy. In doing so, we responsibility for all claimants and provide an opportunity would join Australia and the USA in leading the way in for out-of-work families to take charge of their finances which welfare payments are made to claimants. In Australia, just as they would need to when they got back into a five-year pilot of the Basics card is under way, and in employment. America, the 47 million recipients on the food stamp A stigma around those on benefits is commonplace, programme receive their credits on an electronic benefit but that is neither accurate nor fair to low-paid workers transfer card. who rely on the extra support that the welfare system A welfare cash card would be a sensible step forward offers. We need to stop the damaging perception that all as we move towards universal credit. The cash card benefit recipients are financially reckless. If taxpayers would operate like any other bank card utilising the can be safe in the knowledge that claimants can no chip and PIN payment method. There is also scope to longer purchase NEDD items at the taxpayer’s expense, use the cash card to increase the use of public transport, the concept of welfare will be viewed once again as a through an integrated travel pass, to assist travel needs. responsible way for people to get back on their feet. That is what the welfare state was intended to be: a This is about benefit distribution and spending, not safety net in times of need; a hand up, not a hand-out. about benefit allocation. Whatever the amount that is received on welfare, it is paramount that we are sure Beveridge had such a high opinion of society that he that it is being used in the best way to benefit society. thought nobody would want to choose not to work. The Beveridge report modelled a welfare state using the The last decade has proved otherwise, however, with the insurance contributions an individual pays to support previous Government allowing an epidemic to fester. It them when they fall on hard times. At a time when it is is now time to modify the system so that this socially not uncommon for families to have third-generation destructive state-funded way of living is no longer an benefit claimants, who have never made these insurance option. Surely we should aim to introduce measures to contributions, this model is becoming increasingly unviable enable society to be supportive and respectful of those and the need for reform is urgent. struggling to succeed, which is what this form of financial monitoring could achieve. This Bill would promote financial planning and spending Furthermore, the welfare cash card has the potential by those in society who have fallen on hard times and for more social good, not least by assisting efforts to require support from the state. It backs those hard-working eradicate child poverty.Statistics show that over 1.26 million families who feel penalised for going to work, such as claimants have children. Prohibiting the purchases of the single mum in my constituency—a low-paid shop NEDD items such as cigarettes and alcohol would leave worker on income support, juggling child care but more money for priority purchases for children, who going to work because she believes it is better to work should not be the ones to suffer as a result of their than spend a life on benefits. parents’ irresponsible spending. To put this in monetary We must change this vision of the benefits system. terms, the Office for National Statistics has calculated We must change this perception to support those in that the average household spends £48 a month on society who need the benefit system to help them get on cigarettes, alcohol and narcotics. If the Bill created even and work hard in life. The welfare cash card does just the slightest chance of raising those children out of that: it is not about dividing to rule, but ending Labour’s poverty, or of reducing the chance of them going to divisive two-tier benefit system and the damaging perception school hungry or being subjected to secondary inhalation that accompanied it. It backs the low-paid workers and of smoke, I would argue that it was worth while. supports all jobseekers to spend responsibly, take control A ban on cigarette and alcohol purchases would also of their finances and get back on their feet. The welfare inevitably impact on NHS costs. This is not to suggest state can no longer be seen as getting something for that welfare claimants are purposely taking advantage nothing: it must deliver on Beveridge’s vision of a of the NHS, but a reduction in smoking-related and temporary security net by using benefits to create a alcohol-related admissions would be a natural by-product striving society. of the welfare cash card. Smoking-related illnesses are Question put and agreed to. estimated to cost the NHS at least £2.7 billion a year in England alone, with the same cost attached to alcohol- Ordered, related harm. With that figure expected to rise to £3.7 billion That Alec Shelbrooke, Jessica Lee, Nigel Adams, by 2015, it is simply wrong that the state is inadvertently Gareth Johnson and Kris Hopkins present the Bill. fuelling the problem by allowing the use of welfare payments for the purchase of NEDDs. Alec Shelbrooke accordingly presented the Bill. The Bill is about safeguarding the use of taxpayers’ Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on money and supporting claimants in managing their Friday 25 January 2013, and to be printed (Bill 112). 713 18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 714

Justice and Security Bill [Lords] Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab) rose— [Relevant document: The Fourth Report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Legislative Scrutiny: Justice Mr Clarke: I will give way to the Chairman of the and Security Bill, HC 370] Joint Committee, but I will not start a rash of giving Second Reading way at this early stage of my speech.

12.52 pm Dr Francis: Do I detect from the warm way in which the Minister responded and referred to the report of the Minister without Portfolio (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I beg Joint Committee on Human Rights that he will be to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. minded to accept many of its recommendations? Since we first consulted on the Bill and during its passage through the House of Lords, it has aroused quite a bit of passion and debate among those interested Mr Clarke: Minded to? Certainly—we will accept in the subject. The first aim of my speech will be to try some of them. I speak warmly of the Joint Committee to satisfy the House that most of the passion and debate because I do not believe it was pursuing objectives that turns on the very important detail of the way in which differed from mine or those of my colleagues. I think it the Bill’s processes will work. No doubt, the detail will will probably fall to the Under-Secretary of State for be considered at great length in Committee rather than the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for today. I believe that I can demonstrate that there is no Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) to explain real division on principle between the Government and in Committee why we are not wholly convinced that most of the people who have debated this matter. The every one of the amendments is quite right, or even that Government are just as committed as any other Member some of them would have the effect that the Joint of either House of Parliament to the principles of Committee proposed. I will not, however, get into that justice being done in civil cases, the rule of law and the level of detail so early in a Second Reading speech, if I accountability of our intelligence agencies both to the may be allowed not to do so. courts and to Parliament. I believe that accountability We discussed the Green Paper about a year ago, and I will be improved by the Bill. recall that it was a comparatively non-controversial Our intelligence services comprise brave men and occasion. Such was the general satisfaction and women, and we all realise they do essential work in helping understanding on all sides that I left the Chamber to protect us against the great threats to this country. wondering whether I needed to have bothered to make We also insist that they should respect and follow our an oral statement. Quite a lot has happened since then, values when carrying out their work, and they are but I trust it has not shifted the opinion of the Members properly accountable to the law and Parliament. I think who joined in the debate at that time, particularly that the best people in the intelligence agencies are anxious of the shadow Justice Secretary, the right hon. Member to be able to demonstrate that, to protect their reputation for Tooting (Sadiq Khan). I still strongly agree with and taxpayers’ money for claims made against them. what he said, which I shall quote: “We need, as a matter of urgency, to bolster the safeguards and Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Before scrutiny mechanisms concerning issues of security and my right hon. and learned Friend embarks on a more intelligence.”—[Official Report, 19 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 901.] detailed consideration, I wonder whether he understands I am glad to see the right hon. Gentleman nodding his that the amendments made in the House of Lords have head in response to his own quotation. I was glad to been regarded by many people as being entirely favourable read in a recent interview in The Guardian that he still and reasonable. Will he confirm whether Her Majesty’s believes that, as he said: Government will accept those amendments and will remain open to any further amendments, particularly those with “In two and a half years’ time, it could be me in that seat the purpose of extending the discretion of the courts? making that tough decision. So it is very important for ministers to have the opportunity to protect sources, to protect delicate operations and all the rest of it. They shouldn’t be jeopardised by Mr Clarke: I shall come on to the detail a little later a civil action.” in my speech and I want to start, if I may, by reiterating the case in principle. I will deal with the amendments I will not comment on the right hon. Gentleman’s later, and we will accept some of them, but express our political optimism and ambition to occupy any seat at doubts about others. We will come back with a detailed all, but he is certainly right, in my opinion, to identify a response in Committee. I think the people who moved serious problem with the current arrangements. At the those amendments were pushing at an open door in moment, total secrecy is all that happens to the sensitive terms of judicial discretion, but they were desperately intelligence information in far too many cases and no anxious to dot every i and cross every t. In some cases, judicial judgment is pronounced on the merits of plaintiff we are going to have to consider whether they put the versus defendant. I believe that the present system right dots on the right i’s and crossed the right t’s. I shall needs to be reformed urgently. That is why the principle deal with that. I quite understand that the Joint Committee of the Bill is certainly necessary. on Human Rights came forward with recommendations In support of the need for change, let me remind the that commanded wide support in the House of Lords—and, House of a letter written to The Times newspaper last no doubt, in this House, too—but Ministers need to month by a number of individuals for whom I personally address them properly. If we wish to come back to some have the greatest respect. The signatories included the of them, we will explain in detail the reasons why. former Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord Let me get under way. It was about a year ago when Wolff; the former Home Secretary, Lord Reid; and my the House— right hon. Friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, a former 715 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 716

[Mr Kenneth Clarke] sensible questions, given the nature of some of the claims that have been made about the behaviour of Lord Chancellor. I am sure we all agree that all those British agents. people are totally committed to the rule of law and the As I have told the House before, I do not think that principles of justice. In their letter they explained: any country in the world would tolerate a legal system “In national security matters our legal system relies upon a in which our spies and our agents and their collaborators procedure known as public interest immunity…Under PII, evidence cheerily appeared in open court, in front of the parties, which is deemed to be national security sensitive is excluded from the courtroom. The judge may not take it into account when their lawyers and the press, and gave evidence on these coming to his or her judgment.” matters. It would be exceedingly damaging. Public interest immunity, on which people now rely, has one obvious This procedure, they say, is defect. If a Minister obtains it, that means that the “resulting in a damaging gap in the rule of law.” material is entirely excluded from the court, and neither They are right to say that. party can rely on it. In my opinion, it has become well nigh impossible for What continually happens, certainly in relation to British judges to untangle, and adjudicate on, claims defence evidence, is that—although there has been no and counter-claims of alleged British involvement in proper hearing of all the evidence—the parties settle, the mistreatment of detainees. If we, as citizens, want to the taxpayer pays up, claims are made which are damaging know whether the Security Service could challenge and to the reputation of the service and no one knows rebut what is claimed against it, no judge can give us whether or not they are justified, and we have to move guidance as things stand. Some of the allegations of on from there. I want us to reach a point at which cases British involvement in the mistreatment of detainees are not being settled simply because our court procedures are really serious, and I do not think that the system are not capable of allowing sensitive national security should continue to prevent judges from scrutinising the material to be heard in the few cases in which it is secret actions of the state in such cases. plainly relevant. It has always been obvious to me that what is needed in civil actions of this kind is the very Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): Not only limited use, in exceptional cases, of the closed procedures will judges not have the full information, but when cases that were created by the last Government, which would are settled, adverse inferences will inevitably be drawn enable a High Court judge to consider all the evidence about behaviour that may or may not have taken place, from both sides, but to do so in necessarily closed and that affects the reputation of our agencies. Is it not conditions if national security was at risk. therefore essential that we can get to the heart of the matter, so that the agencies can at least put their case? Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): What inference does my right hon. and learned Friend think the public Mr Clarke: I entirely agree. We keep being reminded will draw if the Government win a case involving the of that. The fact is that the reputational damage is closed material procedure in which the other party has probably more significant than the millions of pounds had no chance to see or challenge the evidence—secret that have been involved in some of these cases, and we evidence—that the Government have introduced in support need to ensure that some way can be found of trying of that case? them. Mr Clarke: The inference I would draw is that at least Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): a judge, doing the best that he or she can, has had a Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way? On chance to consider the evidence, and has delivered a that point? judgment. If the judge is not allowed to consider the evidence, obviously no useful judgment can be pronounced Mr Clarke: Let me just explain. All of this is relevant. at the end of the case. Of course it would be very much Some of our critics appear to be arguing decisively better if the evidence were given in an open procedure—in that the status quo is somehow defensible and should normal cases, the openness of justice is one of the continue, but I believe that that position is untenable proudest boasts of our system—but in cases in which now. It is simply not possible for a judge to hear these national security will be jeopardised if evidence is given matters, and, as was pointed out by the right hon. openly, it must be ensured that the evidence can be Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), all kinds given in the best possible circumstances in the light of of insinuations are made about cases in which it ought the obvious limitations of the case. to be obvious to everyone that the intelligence agencies British judges are quite capable of deciding whether were in no position to call any evidence that would or not national security is involved. British judges do seriously address the issues. not need us to lecture them on the rule of law and the The serious evidence that might be called and might duty to be impartial between the parties. British judges be relevant—I am not commenting on the merits of any will want to hear evidence openly if they think that that individual cases—might relate to the precise nature of can possibly be practicable. British judges will be able to the British intelligence agencies’ involvement in the judge—they do it all the time—the weight to be given to issues concerned. What did our agents know about evidence. Once the judges discover who was the source either an individual or an organisation at the time when of the information, people can be challenged about the the events being described were taking place? What reliability of that source. Of course the system is not collaboration was taking place between the British ideal—if we could only persuade all the country’s enemies Government and partners in overseas agencies, and to close their ears, there could be a perfectly ordinary what information was being shared? Those are all very single-action trial and we could hear everything—but I 717 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 718 believe that the Bill will move us from what is currently Mr Clarke: Of course it is being appealed, but that a hopeless position to a better position that will allow does not alter my point. Depending on which side one is us to hear the judgment of a judge in appropriate cases. on, it is no good saying that we cannot have closed material procedures if the wrong side is going to win. In Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Is the that case, the Government lost and Abu Qatada won right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of a criminal using a special advocate and a closed material procedure. trial that took place some years ago in Caernarfon Crown court in north Wales, involving the damage to Mr David Davis: On exactly that point, my right hon. second homes, in which MI5 officers gave evidence and learned Friend—and he is my friend—said that behind a screen? Their anonymity was not compromised, these proceedings were created under the Labour and nor were the interests of the state. Government. They were, and there are now 69 special advocates, 32 of whom are experienced in closed material procedures. The vast majority of them—nearly all of Mr Clarke: Nothing in the Bill will affect the criminal them—oppose the Bill as they think PII works better law. No one will be prosecuted on the basis of secret than the procedure they have been operating for the evidence. However, there are plenty of cases—for instance, past few years. Why does he think that is? those involving MI5 or involving victims of certain types, such as vulnerable victims—in which it is proper Mr Clarke: The special advocates surprised me with to screen witnesses from public view, or otherwise protect the ferocity of the evidence they provided. They start them. The Bill, however, has nothing whatever to do from the side of the argument that challenges the security with criminal cases. services and is suspicious of what goes on, and judges The purpose of closed procedures is not just to have told me—some have said this publicly—that they ensure that no one can see what the agent looks like; underrate their effectiveness in such actions. They are there are some cases in which we cannot let people used to practising the present law and I assume that know what the agent was doing. The plaintiff may have their position is that the present law is perfectly all right been compromised as a result of terrorist or other and that they wish to continue with it. I am surprised by activity, and he and his friends may be dying to know the adherence to PII, which has not hitherto been how they were caught. What were the British agents evident. doing that put them on to it? They want to know who Let me give the example of another case to show that shopped them, and that will make things very difficult special advocates can successfully challenge the evidence for a person who they come to suspect is the source of put forward in closed proceedings by claimants. Ekaterina the material that is emerging. As I think everyone Zatuliveter, the Russian girlfriend of a Liberal Democrat knows perfectly well, it is not possible to share that Member of Parliament, won her deportation case after information with the parties in each and every case of a closed hearing in which a special advocate challenged this kind. However, while some people may consider it the argument that she was a threat to national security satisfactory to say “Well, in those cases the Government and should be deported. It is simply not the case that in never defend themselves and we just pay millions of closed procedures it is impossible to challenge these points. pounds”, I really do not think that we need tolerate that Such cases are comparatively new, as no one dreamed situation any longer. we would have such litigation until 10 or 15 years ago. The claims are getting steadily more numerous as we Dr Francis: Given what he said earlier about closed have an attractive jurisdiction in which the person against material procedures, how would the right hon. and whom one makes allegations will probably not be able learned Gentleman respond to what Lord Kerr said to call any evidence and one will be paid millions of recently in the Supreme Court? He said: pounds. The best way forward is the one that has been “The central fallacy of the argument”— successfully used in the two cases I have already cited, which is, despite our very limited experience, having the Government’s argument, that is— closed proceedings and special advocates. It is less than “lies in the unspoken assumption that, because the judge sees ideal, but it is justice, not secrecy. Secrecy is what we everything, he is bound to be in a better position to reach a fair have at the moment, with an uncertain and debatable result. That assumption is misplaced. To be truly valuable, evidence outcome in all these cases. must be capable of withstanding challenge.” Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): The right hon. Mr Clarke: I was intending to return to the details of and learned Gentleman is correct to say, of course, that closed material procedures later. We could easily trade the previous Labour Administration introduced closed quotations, because various judges and legal authorities material proceedings in 1997, with support from all have expressed different views. parties, as I recall. They have worked. Will he confirm that in at least seven of more than 30 Special Immigration Closed material procedures sometimes achieve success. Appeals Commission cases since the beginning of 2007, We have them now—the previous Government introduced including the two he mentioned, the court has found them—and as I shall say later, as I should save it until I against the Government and in favour of the potential get to the relevant part of my speech, there are cases in deportee? which the special advocates have overturned the Government’s case. The most well known case is that of Mr Clarke: I accept the right hon. Gentleman’s statistics. Abu Qatada, who won in a closed material procedure I cannot confirm them, as I do not have them myself, before a British judge only about a month ago— but they sound wholly credible. As he said, a Labour Government introduced these procedures—it might have Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): It is being appealed. been him— 719 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 720

Mr Straw: It was me. Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con) rose—

Mr Clarke: It was he, as Home Secretary, who introduced Mr Clarke: I shall give way one last time, and then I them. They arose partly at the behest of human rights must press on to the JCHR’s amendments. lobbyists who are now vehemently opposing the Bill. It was the intervention of human rights activists in the Robert Neill: Does my right hon. and learned Friend case of Chahal in the late 1990s that saw the system of agree that although the proposed system is not perfect closed hearings develop, but some of the same people and never can be in litigation, it is surely preferable to are now arguing that closed material proceedings put have that than a system where an ex parte application the Government above the rule of law. for PII can be made without the defendant having any As I have already said and as the right hon. Gentleman notice of any kind and without anybody, not even a has with authority confirmed, people have been successful special advocate, being able to test the material? in fighting the Government in these civil actions under the closed material proceedings, as the number of claims Mr Clarke: The time has come for reform. The present goes— system is not defensible, in my opinion, and my hon. Friend confirms that all kinds of features of PII are Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD) rose— hopelessly unsatisfactory. We have to deal with them. Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con) rose— Let me move on—

Mr Clarke: Let me move on, because I am probably Mr Tyrie: Will my right hon. and learned Friend give moving on to the point of concern— way one last time?

Sir Alan Beith: On this point. Mr Clarke: I keep giving way one last time, so, with apologies to my hon. Friend, let me turn to what I think Mr Clarke: All right. is the subject matter of the serious debate that has been taking place since we consulted on the Green Paper. Sir Alan Beith: My right hon. and learned Friend It was our intention from the start to consult on the referred to the ability of the special advocate to challenge Green Paper. As what we are doing goes to the the evidence. Lord Kerr, in the remarks quoted earlier, fundamentals of our legal system and our rule of law, talked about gisting and whether it was possible for the we actively sought the widest possible support for what special advocate to confirm or correct with the other we are doing. Even before the Bill was introduced and party whether he was in a particular place at a particular before it went through the Lords, we narrowed its scope time, because that had come up in the evidence. We to make quite sure that CMPs could be made available need to consider a little more carefully that ability to only when disclosure of the material would be damaging check back with the person who would normally be to the interests of national security. Green Paper language instructing the advocate but cannot because he is a that slightly implied that the police, Customs and Excise special advocate. and all sorts of other people might start invoking them has gone completely away. We removed the Secretary of Mr Clarke: I shall turn to some of this detail, but State’s power to extend the scope of the Bill by order, gisting is allowed under the Bill. The judge will have all and excluded inquests after a campaign led by the Daily the powers he requires to recommend gisting once he Mail got widespread support in this House. As I have has heard the secret evidence. already said, we never even contemplated that our proposals should cover criminal cases. Mr Leigh: My right hon. Friend is very generous in giving way and I understand the dilemma he faces, but We also conceded—this is the key point, which I is it not a fundamental principle of British jurisprudence, think we are still debating with most of the critics—very defended by this House for 500 years, that a defendant early on, after publishing the Green Paper, that the should have sight of the evidence used against him that decision whether to allow a closed material procedure might affect his liberty? or not should be a matter for the judge and never for the Minister. That is an important principle and it is what Mr Clarke: In a criminal case, that is so. That is why most of the arguments, even about the JCHR’s we cannot prosecute some people we really should, amendments, are all about. We have all, I hope, now because there is no way to reveal the evidence against agreed that it is a judge’s decision whether or not to them—if it cannot be revealed to a judge and a jury, he hold closed procedures. The question is how far we need is untouchable under the criminal law. We are talking to keep amending the Bill to clarify this and how we about civil actions, sometimes involving people with avoid unnecessary consequences if we overdo it. I shall tenuous connections with this country who have come return to that. to this country and sought damages from a British That is what most the debate was about in the House court for what they say is the misbehaviour of the of Lords and it is the point of the JCHR’s report. When intelligence agencies of the Government. I have tried to it came to a Division in the House of Lords on the explain why it is impossible to follow the normal and principle of closed material procedures, the Government desirable rules of civil justice and hear it all in the open. had an enormous majority. The Labour party did not We must find some way in which these cases can be oppose the principles of CMP, even though it was a resolved by a judge in a way that is consistent with our Back-Bench Labour amendment which the other place principles of justice without at the same time jeopardising voted down. I trust that the Front-Bench Labour team national security. That is the straightforward dilemma. and the right hon. Member for Tooting continue to be 721 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 722 of that opinion. Unless his undoubted radical left-wing most important, in my opinion—made by the House of instincts have got the better of him, I do not think that Lords that the court “may” rather than “must” order a is the position of any party in this House. closed material procedure upon an application. I do not The concern of the House of Lords and of the JCHR see how we could give a wider discretion than that. was that the judge should have a real and substantive We will also accept that any party, not just the discretion about whether a CMP is necessary in any Government, should be able to ask for a closed material case. Many Members of the upper House made their procedure. I think it highly unlikely that any plaintiff support for CMPs contingent on changes being made will be in any situation to start arguing that he wants to to increase judicial discretion and ensure that it was protect national security, but if people want that, they clear on the face of the Bill that CMPs would be used can have it. More importantly, the court of its own only for a very small category of exceptional cases. volition should be able to order a closed material procedure. I begin by making it clear on behalf of the Government A further series of amendments were made which we that I agree that the judge should have discretion. I still need to look at more closely. We have time to look agree that we should be talking about a small number of at them closely and the others will be addressed by the cases where any other process is impossible and it is Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, necessary for it to be handled in this way. A strong and my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup compelling case was made by those who argued that we in Committee. We are not against the principle, but we ought to trust our judges to decide what the right way is are not sure that the amendments add anything. I shall to try the issues in any particular case. I agree. The give the reasons in a moment. debate—I suspect it will be the same debate today as it was in the House of Lords—starts from the fact that the Government’s case is that the Bill as it stood already Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): I am accepted that principle. But as we were defeated, we will grateful for the opportunity to question the Minister. consider what more we can do by way of reassurance. My main concern is where the discretion is being applied. People are deeply suspicious of anything in this area Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman clarify for and they are convinced that, despite what we put in the me the position of families of armed forces personnel Bill, the judge will somehow be inhibited by what the who have been illegally killed, or people who have been Government propose to do. injured and wish to take out court cases? How will the Our judges are among the finest in the world. They new arrangements apply to them, and how will it be are staunch defenders of the rule of law, and they have possible to ensure transparency in the courts? shown time and again that they can be trusted not to endanger the national security of this country. I know Mr Clarke: I answered that in the written question that they can be— that the hon. Lady put to me. She is welcome to put an oral question to me at Cabinet Office questions, now Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Will my right hon. that she has discovered who is handling the Bill. Most and learned Friend give way? such Ministry of Defence cases do not give rise to national security considerations, and the Ministry of Mr Clarke: If it is on a British process, not a Strasbourg Defence does not expect to start invoking closed material one. proceedings. One cannot anticipate it, but it is possible that the circumstances of the tragic death of a soldier Mr Cash: It is on the Law Lords themselves in the might involve some highly secret operation, and then past and now the Supreme Court. Does my right hon. the situation might arise. We have not had problems on and learned Friend accept that there are divisions of this front so far and the expectation is that it need not opinion even at the highest level about the extent to arise. If it were to arise, there would still be the judgment which such decisions should ultimately be made by the of the judge and a decision in the case. most senior judges or Parliament, and that there are very senior judges who take the view that Parliament, I am trying to think of examples that could conceivably not the judges, should decide these questions? arise. If a soldier was killed and it was alleged that that was the result of some actionable negligence, which Mr Clarke: There are other occasions on which we apparently we are now going to allow people to argue in shall no doubt debate parliamentary override of the our courts, and that took place in some highly secret courts of law. I realise that that is a matter dear to my operation in some unlikely part of the world, I cannot hon. Friend’s heart. In the Duma it would be carried rule out a CMP application being made. The Ministry nem. con. The Russian Government would be utterly of Defence is more robust than I am. I am told that it delighted to hear the principle of parliamentary override does not think that most of these cases involve national brought into our legal system in this country. I think the security at all. House of Commons should be hesitant. There may be senior judges who think that that should apply. The Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): In reply to process that we are applying is different. The Government’s my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North case is based on trusting the judges to use the discretion (Joan Walley), the Minister outlined extreme circumstances sensibly. That is what I think we should do, but of of an injury to a British soldier. Would the same process course I address seriously the views that were put forward. apply if there was embarrassment over arms sales to a I want to make it clear—it goes back to what the right particular country, where those sold arms had been hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies used to deny the human rights of many others, against Campbell) asked me earlier—that the Government will the policies and wishes of this country, and there was a not seek to overturn the most important amendment—the desire not to make that too public? 723 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 724

Mr Clarke: It sounds as though it could be criminal quarter of a million documents before moving beyond a action in that case, which the provision would not apply preliminary issue. When I was Home Secretary I certainly to. It would be for the judge to decide whether what is issued PII certificates for intelligence material. In the being protected is embarrassment for the Government arms to Iraq inquiry, I am glad to say that the judge or national security and the interests of the nation. We confirmed that I had done what I was supposed to do: I can all start dreaming up—I did it myself a moment had read every document—they were brought to me in ago—fanciful cases where such a situation might arise. boxes and put on the floor and required a whole day to The judge would have to decide whether national security consider. The Guantanamo cases would have required a was at risk. It is a two-stage process, which I will not full-time Minister to do nothing but wade through the argue at length today, but what happens is that the PII certificates for months and months before the judge can allow the closed material proceeding. At the application could be made and further progress could end of the closed material proceeding he can revoke it, take place. In some cases, the delay of going through he can say that the proceedings should be gisted, he can that process could have detrimental impacts on other say that the documents should all go in, but perhaps people affected by the issues in the case awaiting judgment. redacted in key places. There is wide discretion before Equally, all parties might consent to a closed material he goes back to the open session. If a Government at procedure. If they consent, should the judge still be some time want a closed hearing, they will get it only if required to go through the time-consuming PII process? they can satisfy the judge that national security is at In the Maya Evans case, all parties consented to a risk. closed material procedure as the only way to try the issues. The ruling in that judicial review case, which was Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): with special advocates, changed Government policy on The right hon. and learned Gentleman will have seen detentions in Afghanistan, directly affecting ongoing the strongly worded letter from the Cabinet Secretary Government actions. Delays in that case to consider for Justice in the Scottish Government outlining his alternatives to closed material procedures could have serious concerns about the Bill. The Scottish Government meant that more individuals were exposed abroad to a have made it clear that they want nothing to do with it policy that the court ultimately concluded was unlawful. as it applies to their jurisdiction. Will the Minister I will give an indication of why I will not give a ensure that he respects their position? blanket assurance that we will accept all the House of Lords amendments. I do not think that the problems Mr Clarke: Constitutionally, I will respect the Scottish were properly considered, and we will bring forward the Government’s position. If they think that Scots are not products of our thinking in Committee. As I have said, ready for decisions in these cases and wish everything to we continue to debate the powers the judge should have remain shrouded in secrecy and mystery, so be it. That once a closed material procedure has been granted. is a matter for the Scottish Government. It seems to me Under the Bill, the court will have strong powers to that would be the result if they will not move with what require gisting, redaction and summaries. In particular, I think is the obvious response to the needs of recent cases. the Bill sets out—it is probably unnecessary—that to To return to the detailed amendments, let me explain ensure a fair trial under article 6 of the European where my reservations come from. The House of Lords convention on human rights, the court can order disclosure decided to get carried away with the discretion. I have of material notwithstanding the damage that would be already accepted the widest discretion, but they then caused to national security. In that situation, in order to wanted to start setting out in the legislation factors that disclose, the Government would have the opportunity, the judge ought to take into account. We are considering as they currently do under PII, to seek to bring an end that, and I can assure Members that there will be a to proceedings, or an aspect of proceedings, in order to response in Committee. The Lords obviously do not avoid damage to national security. If the Government trust judges as much as I do, because they wish to start do not disclose material or elect not to provide a summary setting out factors. However, if we set out factors in the of material, the court can order the Government not to legislation, they must be the right ones. If they are not, rely on it or to make concession or such other steps as they can give rise to other problems. the court might require. For example, some of the amendments made in the In brief, the Bill leaves it to the judge to decide what is House of Lords—I am leaving aside whether some of necessary in any particular case, rather than seeking to them are necessary—would require the judge to consider impose disclosure requirements or to fetter the judge’s and exhaust alternatives to closed material proceedings discretion in deciding whether to have a closed material in every case in order to prove that the case could not be procedure. I think that we should reflect on that in tried in any other way. It sounds attractive, but in some Committee. Let us not go into Committee with everyone cases it would be obvious to the judge from the start saying, “What the Joint Committee on Human Rights that a closed material procedure was necessary. As the has said is necessarily right and we will support the Bill independent reviewer of terrorism litigation, David so long as we sign up to that.” I think that some of the Anderson, explained to the Joint Committee on Human JCHR amendments raise serious issues that should be Rights, debated properly in this House and which the Government must be allowed to exercise their judgment on before “there is no point in banging your head against a brick wall… if reaching a final decision. the exercise is plainly going to be futile.” In the Guantanamo Bay cases, which provoked the Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I conducted in excess need to address the law and bring forward this reform, of a dozen PII trials as a criminal barrister. Does the the court would have had to consider about a quarter of Minister accept that there is a fundamental difference a million documents before determining the PII application between what he is proposing and the procedures under and moving to a CMP. It would have had to consider a PII? 725 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 726

Mr Clarke: Yes, because we want a process whereby innocently, in suspected wrongdoing, to disclose information the judge can hear the evidence of the intelligence that a claimant feels may be relevant to a case that they agencies in a closed—secret, if one likes—process, and are bringing in some other jurisdiction, usually abroad. that is not the purpose of PII. PII is a very old process In 2008, as a result of ingenious arguments, the that has developed over the years from simple beginnings, Norwich Pharmacal principle was extended to national and I imagine that in the early cases—before my time—it security law. The purpose of proceedings under the was probably rather straightforward: if a Minister said principle now is for people involved in a legal process of he wanted public interest immunity, it was granted. The some kind, usually overseas, seeking to obtain disclosure findings of Lord Justice Scott in the arms to Iraq inquiry of intelligence material in the hands of the British —not at my expense, I am glad to say—rather upset Government. that approach. PII is of course used flexibly in proper As the purpose of the proceedings is only disclosure—no cases because judges and lawyers all want to hear evidence other judgment is being sought—the Government do in open court whenever possible, but I think that we not have the option to withdraw from or settle proceedings; need to update all this. We are not abolishing public if the judge orders disclosure, there is no option but for interest immunity, but I think that in many cases extending the Government to release the secret intelligence. That closed material procedures, which is what we are proposing, has given rise to understandable fears that if a person would be an altogether more sensible way of getting a shares information with the British Government’s agencies, proper judgment in the case. British judges have the power to order the release of Let me turn to the provisions of the Norwich Pharmacal some of it and that person cannot be certain of being jurisdiction. able to resist that. There is no point in my setting out obvious platitudes Hazel Blears: I want to tease out the right hon. and about the nature of intelligence work. If intelligence learned Gentleman’s view on the balancing test, which agencies are not able to guarantee to their sources, be is part of the House of Lords amendments. At the they friendly overseas Governments or agents, that they moment there is a balancing test stating that the judge, can keep secrets, people will not share so much information when deciding whether or not closed material procedures with them. Lives will literally be at risk in some cases as can be applied for, has to balance the degree of harm to will international co-operation on such vital issues as the interests of national security with the public interest torture prevention and human rights. in the fair and open administration of justice. Balancing tests are notoriously difficult. One of the main problems Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con) with the Chahal case, which led to significant issues for rose— this country’s national security, was whether the balancing test was in the right place, and most of us felt that it was Mr Clarke: I will give way and then seek to persuade not. If we are to have a balancing test in the legislation, the House that those fears are not fanciful or false; the it is in the part about whether proceedings are suitable; problem is happening now. it is not in the part about when an application can be made. We need some clarity on the Government’s position with regard to the balancing test, because clearly the Mark Field: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend interests of national security are not always equivalent for giving way. I entirely agree; he has admirably put to the interests of an open proceeding, and that is a forward the concerns about Norwich Pharmacal and difficult balance to strike. the historical accident that has arisen as far as national security cases are concerned. Was he not tempted, therefore, simply to exclude Norwich Pharmacal matters from Mr Clarke: The balance is indeed difficult to draw. national security—in other words, make it absolutely We have debated the balancing test on various occasions clear through Parliament that the Norwich Pharmacal and in the past I have rather resisted it because it gives arrangements should be regarded narrowly as being rise to the possibility of the judge saying, “Oh yes, there available only in intellectual property cases and should is a risk to national security. What a pity, never mind. I not apply to national security matters? Is he not taking wish open justice to be done, so let’s take a chance with us down a rather more convoluted route in the Bill? national security.”That is probably a somewhat broad-brush piece of opposition, and we are reflecting on the issue. Mr Clarke: The practical effect of the Bill is exactly The proper response to the right hon. Lady’s entirely as my hon. Friend recommends, although it may have sensible and pertinent question is probably best given in been drafted with a few too many provisos and provisions Committee, when we will have had more time to decide because of the deep suspicion with which these things the position. are regarded. Essentially, however, we do not think that Norwich Pharmacal should apply to intelligence material The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the provided in confidence to the British security services. Home Department (James Brokenshire) indicated assent. I will not take too long on this because the argument is perfectly straightforward, but I want to tell the House Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend is nodding; he will be that these are not false fears. Over the past year, we have presenting our reactions. picked up concerns from human agents. They have “Norwich Pharmacal” is the phrase used by lawyers always been concerned about the degree to which their to describe a process that grew up in the sphere of relationships can be protected, of course, but they are intellectual property law, in which someone is enabled now becoming really concerned about disclosure to the to apply for the disclosure of evidence—documents, British courts. Sir Daniel Bethlehem, a former legal usually—relevant to a claim that they are making. It is adviser to the Foreign Office, told the Joint Committee used to force a third party who is mixed up, however on Human Rights that the flow of intelligence from the 727 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 728

[Mr Kenneth Clarke] greater teeth to ensure that we can continue to have confidence in those who oversee the agencies on our United States was being limited. He said that he did not behalf. want to exaggerate, but the point was that the trust of The Bill provides that the ISC will in future be able to the United States had been weakened and that trust oversee the agencies’ operations, within appropriate needed to be restored. constraints. The Committee will also in future report to Arguments tend to break out as to whether agents Parliament, as well as the Prime Minister. Its members have any reason to be fearful, but that is not totally the will be appointed by Parliament, after nomination by point. As long as, as a result of hearing about the the Prime Minister. The power to withhold information extraordinary process called Norwich Pharmacal, other from the ISC will move from the agency heads to the intelligence agencies and our agents think that there is Secretary of State responsible for that agency—a Minister always a risk of disclosure by the British courts, the accountable to the House. It will be a parliamentary damage is done. To follow the point made by my hon. Committee. We are greatly strengthening our powers to Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster hold accountable those who do such vital work for our (Mark Field), what on earth are we running that risk country. for? Mr Tyrie: My right hon. and learned Friend said that Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): In support the Intelligence and Security Committee will henceforth of what my right hon. and learned Friend has just said, be accountable to Parliament. Will he be prepared to I should say that the Intelligence and Security Committee consider the proposals of the Wright Committee on has taken extensive evidence on the matter in both the parliamentary renewal—that the Chairman of the ISC United Kingdom and Washington in respect of the should henceforth be elected by a secret ballot of the likelihood or actuality of damage to very important whole House, subject to a veto by the Prime Minister at information that prevents or might prevent terrorist the nomination stage? That was accepted unanimously incidents in the United Kingdom. We are satisfied that by the Wright Committee and it has won widespread my right hon. and learned Friend’s point is entirely support. It would greatly enhance the credibility and valid and that the House should take it into account. sense of independence of the ISC Chairman.

Mr Clarke: I close my case, as they say; there is no Mr Clarke: I have the greatest respect for the Wright need for me to carry on addressing the House about Committee and we will consider the matter further, Norwich Pharmacal. We wait to hear what points might although I am not instantly attracted by that proposal. be raised about it. We are moving to a situation in which the Chairman of I move on to part 1 of the Bill, which I think the the ISC will be elected by the Committee and the House should have much more regard to. It deals with Committee itself will be elected by the whole House the important issue of parliamentary oversight of our from a list approved first by the Prime Minister. On security and intelligence agencies. I suggest to both reflection, I think that the problem with a system whereby sides of the House that if we wish to be reassured about we could have said that the House can elect whoever it the accountability of our security services and really try likes, subject to a prime ministerial veto, is that it would to guarantee to ourselves that they are not misbehaving, be an Exocet that was hugely embarrassing to use. It is we should look to stronger parliamentary oversight as not impossible—I hope that it is not too fanciful—to well as to more accountability to the courts. envisage a case where the security services have satisfied It is time to put the Intelligence and Security Committee, the Prime Minister that there is some problem with a chaired by my right hon. and learned Friend, on a much particular Member of this House of which the wider stronger footing and to enhance its independence to world is completely unaware. [Interruption.] That is not strengthen the valuable work it has done so far. We have unknown; I am sure that it has happened in the experience to give Parliament more effective oversight of the intelligence of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw). and security agencies. The idea that the Prime Minister must suddenly issue a The ISC operates within arrangements established by veto on the result of an election carried out in this Parliament in 1994, but the nature of the Committee’s House is probably a step too far, and I think that my work has changed dramatically. In the past 18 years, right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington particularly since 9/11, the public profile, budgets and (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), the Chairman of the ISC, agreed operational demands on the agencies have all significantly with me when we discussed this very matter not too increased, but there has been no change in the statutory long ago. arrangements for oversight. In the past, the ISC has overseen operational matters but has done so relatively Sir Malcolm Rifkind indicated assent. infrequently and generally at the direct invitation of the Prime Minister. The ISC has no statutory powers to Mr Clarke: My right hon. and learned Friend nods oversee such matters. Its statutory remit is also limited his head in approval. to oversight of the security and intelligence agencies, The arrangements that we are proposing for a stronger although it has long heard evidence from the wider Committee will in some cases be underpinned by a intelligence community. memorandum of understanding between the Government At the moment, the Prime Minister receives its report and the Committee. The MOU will set out the arrangements and appoints its members. Currently, the heads of the at a level of detail far beyond that which need be put in security and intelligence agencies are permitted, in certain this Bill. We have reached the stage of discussing the circumstances, to withhold information from it. We can terms of that MOU with the Committee. I have had certainly improve on that. We need to give the ISC some extremely constructive discussions with my right 729 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 730 hon. and learned Friend and other members of the changes made by colleagues in the other place. The Committee about the Bill. We will bring forward other Minister informed the House that he will accept some amendments if necessary to make clear the ISC’s increased of them, albeit not yet all of them. connection to Parliament and provide it with some The marriage of justice and security in the Bill’s title statutory immunities to assist in this work. hints at the difficult but not impossible balancing act I apologise for the length of time that I have taken in that is required. It is simply wrong to argue that the introducing the Bill, but I have given way generously. It achievement of one is to the detriment of the other. is the kind of Bill where there should not be serious Those who take this view are failing to show sufficient argument about the principle, but the details are extremely respect for the nature of the issues. Openness and important in a country which has high regard to the transparency of justice is a hugely important principle. rule of law and does not to want to risk abuse of Any deviation from this hundreds-of-years-long tradition process in any proper case. That is why I commend its should be considered only in the most extreme of Second Reading to the House. To reject it and stay with circumstances and must be accompanied by transparent the status quo would be to continue a quite intolerable checks and balances. The Bill, as first published by the situation that is not only unacceptable to the agencies, Government, failed in that respect. which cannot defend their reputations, but should be At this point, I must turn my attention to the role of unacceptable to the taxpayer, who has to pay for some of the Minister without Portfolio, who kept hold of the these settlements, and to any citizen who wants a judge responsibility for this Bill after the reshuffle. The House to have the chance to make a judgment on the issues. will know that I have a huge amount of respect for him, In my opinion, for all the reasons I have given, the and—dare I say it?—affection as well. He is a national Bill strengthens the accountability of our intelligence treasure. It is worth considering the suspicion that many agencies and GCHQ to the courts and to this House. It felt as to why the Prime Minister decided that he should supports our belief in justice, the rule of law and the retain control of the Bill. It is hard not to conclude that liberal, democratic principles that underpin this country. it was for his “liberal credentials”. The suspicion was I trust that the House will therefore be content to give it that the Prime Minister thought that the right hon. and a Second Reading. learned Gentleman would make a better sell of the proposals on secret courts than his successor as Lord Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Epsom and 1.52 pm Ewell (Chris Grayling), who does not have quite the Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): The Minister without same “liberal credentials.” Portfolio has spoken for exactly one hour. Everyone will That may well be the case. In any event, I am afraid be pleased to know that my contribution will be far that the Minister has made a hash of the Bill up until shorter. now. He has rushed headlong into legislation, despite Before us is a Bill that is less bad than when the guarantees to the contrary. He has failed to listen to the Government first published it. It is less bad because of concerns of a very wide range of groups and experts. the changes made to it by colleagues in the other place, He has criticised those who have genuine concerns, as which have started to restore some equilibrium in the he did again today, building up straw men only to great balancing act that we face between our nation’s knock them down. I am afraid that on some occasions security and the rights of individuals up and down the he has given the impression that he has failed to understand country. I want to make it clear, up front and in very the details of his own Bill. I do not know about pushing simple terms, that Labour Members fully recognise the at an open door, but he has now been on the receiving very important issues that the Government are seeking end of three humiliating defeats in the House of Lords to grapple with in this Bill. The Minister called for a and forced to concede further changes or face the serious debate, and I hope that we get one this afternoon prospect of even more defeats. and in Committee. Part 2 includes clauses 6 to 13 on the introduction of Our intelligence agencies do untold amounts of good closed material proceedings, or CMPs, into our civil work in keeping the citizens of this country safe. I justice system. CMPs will allow the Government to should like again to put on record our appreciation of hold in secret parts of court hearings in which an this role. Our intelligence agencies are fighting to defend individual is seeking recourse through our civil courts. our democratic values, so it is only right that those same These are civil actions for damages for claims ranging agencies should be subjected to those same democratic from allegations of rendition to allegations of complicity values, which include judicial and parliamentary scrutiny. in torture and the most serious forms of tort there are. That is why part 1 is so important. It outlines attempts Jeremy Corbyn: Will my right hon. Friend give way? progressively to reform the work of the Intelligence and Security Committee, giving it a formal statutory footing Sadiq Khan: Just this once. I want to make progress with improvements in how the membership and Chair because many other Members want to get in. are chosen. I agree with what the Minister said about this, and my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston Jeremy Corbyn: My right hon. Friend will be well upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) will say more on that aware that in cases of allegations of torture and at the conclusion of the debate. extraordinary rendition it has been the devil’s own job The issue in part 2 is one of allowing justice to take to get any information, transparency or accountability, its course, with those on the end of alleged true abuses and this has gone on for a very long time. Does he not of power and indiscretions allowed to seek full and think that this Bill misses an opportunity to lift the proper recourse, and with the Government also in a cover on the whole miserable period since 2001 when we position whereby they can defend themselves. I intend have had extraordinary rendition and Guantanamo to focus my remarks on this part, especially given the Bay? 731 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 732

Sadiq Khan: I will come to some of the huge material proceedings, but that is complete nonsense. improvements made in the other place. The “must” to “may” amendment arises in circumstances The Government claim that they are unable to defend where the judge who takes the decision decides that themselves in court because the nature of the evidence national security would be at issue. The original Bill they would need to deploy is so bound up with sensitive said that once he finds that there is a risk to national intelligence as to make it impossible for it to be made security, he “must” have a closed material procedure. public. As a result, they are having to settle cases and Such is the concern of all these critics that we have pay out-of-court compensation. By allowing CMPs in made it clear that we will accept a wider discretion, so situations involving national security, the Government even when the judge—not the Minister—is satisfied are seeking to avoid situations where cases are not seen that national security is at risk, he “may” have a closed through to their conclusion and avoid the premature material procedure. I submit that people should think payment of compensation. about the possibility that that leaves the judge with all the discretion in the world to think about all the other Let us go right back to the very beginning of this issues that might mean there is some compelling reason legislative process. The original proposals that were in a particular case not to allow a CMP, even when published in the Green Paper involved huge issues. The national security is threatened. I simply do not understand Minister said at the time that after the consultation on why the right hon. Gentleman—he is not the first; I am the Green Paper, he expected a White Paper, followed not singling him out—and others keep asserting that by a Bill. We had serious problems with the Green Ministers will decide on that when the Government Paper, but we were encouraged by the sensible pace at gave up that position months ago. which he proposed to progress. As I have said, the original Green Paper was roundly criticised by others for being too broadly drafted in its Sadiq Khan: I know that the right hon. and learned coverage of CMPs. After the consultation, the Government Gentleman has not practised law for a while, but he is decided to jettison secret inquests, making a virtue, as wrong. The old Bill clearly said that if a Minister has happened again today, of this concession. I pay decides that there is a threat to national security, the tribute to the Royal British Legion and the non- judge must order a CMP. The improvements made by governmental organisation, Inquest, for successfully fighting the House of Lords changed that and I am glad that he that barmy idea. Many suspect, however, that the inclusion has accepted them. of inquests in the first place was a wheeze—an idea that The right hon. and learned Gentleman has lashed would be later binned and presented as a major concession. out—he did it again today—at what he called the It is the oldest trick in the book. “reactionary” elements of the civil liberties community. The process then changed: there was no White Paper. He is sniggering, but he will recall that he was once a Instead, we jumped straight from the Green Paper to a part of that community. Does he really believe that Bill, which, while including inquests, did not take on David Anderson QC, the Government’s independent board the wide range of concerns that had been raised reviewer of terrorism legislation, fits that description? I about the proposals. In many people’s eyes, the Bill’s remind him of what Mr Anderson said about the Bill’s process for deciding when there should be a CMP was original proposal that Ministers would trigger a closed worse than the process set out in the Green Paper. Even hearing: more power was concentrated in the hands of Ministers “That proposal seems to me profoundly wrong in principle. to decide what would stay secret, while judges had fewer The decision whether to order a CMP is properly for the court in powers to take a balanced view on whether it was in the the exercise of its case management functions.” national interest to keep something secret or whether it He also said that a CMP should be used only if was in the public interest to disclose it. “the just resolution of a case cannot be obtained by other It is on this point that the right hon. and learned procedural means (including not only PII but other established Gentleman disagrees with many independent experts, means such as confidentiality rings and hearings in camera).” including judges, about how the process will work. He insisted that the CMP process was a judge-led, balancing It seems that it was not just me who got it wrong; exercise and that it was not a Minister-led process. He according to the Minister without Portfolio, his own repeated that several times, criticising those who dared independent reviewer of terrorism legislation also got it to question his assertions, and he has done so again wrong. today. I and many others have picked him up on this, Advocates also appear to have got it wrong by not because the Bill as drafted was clear: it was not a understanding the Bill as previously drafted. Many judge-led process. In the old clause 6, there was no esteemed legal Members of the other place, such as balancing exercise. It was a grab for power by Ministers. Lord Pannick, Lord Macdonald and Lord Phillips, also They would have decided what stayed secret and what got it wrong if the Minister without Portfolio is correct. did not. Judges were left with no option but to grant a On 19 November, the day the other place considered CMP. The word used was “must”, not “may”. It was the Bill on Report, an editorial in The Times—hardly a simply unacceptable. The power that that would have member of the “reactionary” civil liberties community— handed to the Executive to keep material secret was said: unacceptable and I am pleased that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has accepted the change made in “The Justice and Security Bill being considered in the House of the other place. Lords today cannot be allowed to stand in its current form”. The Daily Mail, which is not historically known to be a Mr Kenneth Clarke: Extraordinary assertions keep “reactionary” element of the civil liberties community, being made outside this House that the Bill allows either, has also consistently opposed the right hon. and Ministers to decide whether there should be closed learned Gentleman’s original proposals. 733 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 734

I accept that some have argued strenuously against I want to touch briefly on clauses 14 and 15, which the whole principle of CMPs in our civil courts. Others address the so-called Norwich Pharmacal cases. They have focused their energies on ensuring that the Bill has prevent the disclosure of “sensitive information” that proper checks and balances in place. the Secretary of State certifies it would be contrary to the interests of national security or international relations Mr Kenneth Clarke rose— to disclose. In those cases, a party seeks an order for the disclosure of evidence in order to pursue or defend a case against a third party, possibly outside the jurisdiction, Sadiq Khan: I will give way to the Minister without as in the cases that have attracted attention in which the Portfolio. Clearly, one hour was not enough for him. defendant—that is, the Government—is to some degree mixed up in events, perhaps by quite innocently coming Mr Clarke: We are merely warming up. To refresh the into possession of some information. right hon. Gentleman’s memory, I have a copy of the Disclosure via Norwich Pharmacal is, we are told, original Bill. I think he is talking about a debate that already seriously undermining confidence among our was last sensibly carried out when the Green Paper, in most important partners, including the United States of which we said that it would be for a Minister to decide America. That is an important matter for our intelligence on this matter, was considered. Clause 6(2) of the old agencies, which I have already paid tribute to, because Bill says: they probably work more closely with their colleagues “The court must, on an application under subsection (1), make in the USA than those in any other country.We understand such a declaration if the court considers that…(b) such a disclosure the importance of the control principle. would be damaging to the interests of national security.” Although there may be an issue that needs to be We published the Bill on the basis that it was a judge’s addressed and a case for regularising the situation created decision. We are making the judge’s discretion wider. by the Norwich Pharmacal cases, we question whether He does not have to have a CMP. Even if he is satisfied the Government’s approach is too broad. We will test that national security is at risk, he “may” make a that in Committee. The independent reviewer of terrorism declaration, which is what has been proposed to us by legislation, David Anderson QC, agrees with our position the House of Lords. and has publicly accepted that there is “a case for restricting the novel application of the Norwich Sadiq Khan: The right hon. and learned Gentleman Pharmacal jurisdiction to national security information.” can use the present or past tense, but the reality is that, previously, the judge would have to order a CMP if the He concluded, however, that what is now clause 14 was Minister said that there were national security issues. too broad in its application. There was no balancing exercise. The changes made in We do not intend to oppose the Bill on Second the other place mean that the process is now judge-led Reading. However, I hope that I have made it clear that and I am glad that the Minister without Portfolio we wish not only to hold on to the improvements that welcomes them. I am glad that legal experts agree with were made to the Bill in the other place, but to use the me. We will have a chance to come back to the issue Committee stage to seek further improvements. How later. we vote on Report and Third Reading will be determined The defeats inflicted on the Government in the other by the Government’s actions in Committee between place were truly stunning—the Minister without Portfolio now and then. used the phrase, “Pushing at an open door”—with majorities of 100, 105 and 87. Those defeats mean that, Several hon. Members rose— as the Bill stands, there will be an equality of arms between the two parties in a civil action and a full Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. There is judicial balancing of the competing public interest. a 10-minute limit on contributions from now on, with Moreover, if CMPs are to be granted, it must be as a the usual injury time for up to two interventions. last resort—I know that the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not like that change made in the other place—and, importantly, there will now be judicial 2.11 pm balancing within the CMP. Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): As Chairman I have no doubt that there would have been more of the Intelligence and Security Committee, I will defeats had the Minister in the other place, Lord Wallace, concentrate my comments on the proposed reforms of not seen sense and conceded on other amendments. The the ISC in part 1 of the Bill. scale of those Government defeats is testament to the It is easy for me and the Committee to welcome enormous levels of unhappiness of distinguished legal part 1, because 95% of it is exactly what we recommended experts and serious people with the Bill as originally to the Government many months ago. We pay tribute to published. them for being willing to accept such a radical change in I pay tribute to the Joint Committee on Human the powers relating to independent oversight in the Rights, particularly its Chair, my hon. Friend the Member United Kingdom. The system has been imperfect since for Aberavon (Dr Francis), for the work it has done. Its 1994, as has been commented on in the past. I can say amendments—the Opposition supported the majority with confidence that if the proposals in part 1 are of them—were the basis of the victories in the House of implemented, the United Kingdom will have a system Lords. We will seek to make other changes to the Bill in of independent intelligence oversight with the powers Committee, in order to ensure greater fairness. We will that are necessary to make it effective. It will be one of oppose any attempts to water down the improvements the most powerful systems of independent oversight in that have already been made. the western world. 735 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 736

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind] Sir Alan Beith: I point out to my right hon. and learned Friend that that situation means that refusal is It is worth remembering for a moment why independent possible and is too easy in circumstances where oversight is crucial in an open society. Our intelligence embarrassment is involved. I can think of at least one agencies have and need to have powers which, if used case in which I feel that that happened during my time by other citizens, would be a breach of the criminal on the Committee. law. Given that situation, the agencies are the first to acknowledge that it is essential in a parliamentary Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I agree with my right hon. democracy for there to be not only Government Friend. There has to be an ultimate right for the Prime accountability, but accountability to Parliament and Minister to decline to allow the Committee to receive the public. The agencies use some £2 billion of resources. certain information. However, until now, the agencies That is a lot of money and it has to be justified, have been able to exercise that power. To be fair to particularly in difficult times. them, they have rarely, if ever, tried to do so. From time to time, it will be necessary, as it has been On operations, the statutory basis is crucial. The in the past, to criticise the agencies when something Committee has accepted that our oversight of operations foolish, unwise or unacceptable takes place. However, should be retrospective. We do not wish to interfere in the agencies also appreciate that the power of genuine, ongoing operations. That would be unreasonable and independent oversight means that they can be defended would put an intolerable burden on the agencies. As if, as happens occasionally, they are unfairly criticised long as the oversight is retrospective and there is a or attacked and cannot defend themselves. For obvious significant national interest—we will have debates over reasons, if the Government try to defend them, there is what that phrase means—I believe that there is a sound seen to be a potential conflict of interests. That does not basis. apply in the case of genuine, independent oversight. For Thirdly, until now, the Intelligence and Security example, in the 7/7 bombings inquiry, the Intelligence Committee has been able only to request information and Security Committee was able to point to some of from the agencies, not require it. To be fair to the the unfair accusations that were being made. agencies, they have not, for all practical purposes, ever refused us information, but they have been in control of What are the reforms that are crucial in transforming the information that has been provided. Real problems the role of independent oversight in the United Kingdom? have emerged over the years. On some occasions, it has First, until now—including as I speak—the Intelligence been found, subsequent to the publication of a report, and Security Committee has been a committee of that important documents had simply not been made parliamentarians, but not a Committee of Parliament. available to the Committee. That may not have been That is going to change. For the first time, the last word done in bad faith, but the consequence was embarrassment on whether the proposed members of the Committee for the agencies and for the system of independent are acceptable will be with the House of Commons oversight. That cannot be allowed to continue. and the House of Lords. As has been said, the Chairman of the Committee will in future be appointed We have also found that when the agencies have not by the Prime Minister, as I was, but by the Committee responded to a requirement of the courts, the resources itself. and the time that they have devoted to finding every relevant document have been slightly greater than for a The Committee will report to Parliament. At the Committee that can only request information and not moment, it reports to the Prime Minister and only require it. That is going to change. I pay tribute to the through the Prime Minister do its reports reach this agencies for accepting the need to make this change. place. Some redactions will, of course, be necessary. The Committee will now have the power to require There will be occasions, as there have been in the past, information from the agencies, including information when the ISC reports on such sensitive matters that on operations, subject to one or two important safeguards. it will, in practice, report only to the Prime Minister I come now to the crucial difference. Until now, the because the material overwhelmingly cannot come into problem has been that although the agencies hold vast the public domain. Nevertheless, for the first time, we amounts of information on any given subject, we do will have a parliamentary Committee that is parliamentary not expect them, when we request information, to fill in the sense of other Committees, except where the need several forklift trucks with information and dump it at for the respect of secret information continues to require our offices. That would be absurd, and we will not some differences of treatment. expect that when we require information in the future. The second major change is in relation to operations. However, until now, the agencies have done the editing I will differ slightly from my right hon. and learned themselves. Even if it is done entirely in good faith, that Friend the Minister without Portfolio in saying that the does not enable the Committee to be confident that it extent to which the Intelligence and Security Committee has seen all the information that it would wish to see has already been involved, through agreement with the before it brings forward its proposals. agencies, in looking at operations and sensitive material We have proposed that we will appoint additional is not exceptional or occasional, but substantial. staff—assistants to the Committee, who will be our Nevertheless, there has been no statutory basis to it. employees and be answerable to us—who will go to the That is crucial, because operations are what the agencies agencies when we require information on a particular are about to a considerable degree and are where subject from them and discuss all the information, parliamentary and public concern can be most manifest. including the raw material, that they have in their files. I It is profoundly unsatisfactory that, until now, there has pay tribute again to the Government and the agencies been no meaningful statutory role for the Committee in for agreeing to that. I hope that there will be a process relation to operations. of agreement and discussion, but at the end of the day, 737 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 738 it will be our staff who decide which parts of the I want to say a few words about part 2 of the Bill. A available material the Committee is likely to want to see. number of my right hon. and hon. Friends who serve on We, Parliament and the public will therefore be able to the Committee will undoubtedly wish to speak about it have confidence that the decision will be taken by the as well. It goes without saying that closed material Committee itself, not by the agencies, however much proceedings are not very satisfactory, but in the imperfect they would be trying to do their best in good faith. world in which we live, the choice is sometimes between That is an enormous culture change for MI6, MI5 good solutions and bad solutions but more often between and GCHQ to accept. For the first time in their history bad solutions and worse solutions. As has been said, they will be not just providing information to people public interest immunity is not a feasible alternative. who are not employees of the agencies or part of the The £2 million settlement that was made just a couple Government—we are not part of the Government, and of weeks ago was a case to which intelligence material in future we will be part of Parliament—but allowing would have been central if it had gone to court. There them to come into their offices, see material and discuss could not have been PII, because that would have what the ISC would like to evaluate. I pay tribute to the excluded all the material. That leaves us to introduce a agencies for accepting that. Of course they have some system that, as the former Lord Chief Justice Lord reservations and concerns, and a memorandum of Woolf has said, is certainly preferable to PII. I say to understanding is being discussed. It is referred to in the hon. Members who still have their doubts that the Bill and will be published in due course. It will explain system is not perfect, but it is a lot better than the one in greater detail how the system will work on a day-to-day we have at the moment. That is why it is in the national basis. We may have to review it in a year or two in the interest to support the Bill. light of experience. I pay tribute also to both Her Majesty’s Government 2.24 pm and Her Majesty’s Opposition, because such a change is Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): It not just a potential rod for the back of the agencies but is a pleasure to follow the chairman of the Intelligence will occasionally create problems for the Government and Security Committee, the right hon. and learned of the day. Both Front-Bench teams know that the Bill Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), and I will mean that intelligence oversight will have the teeth echo the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member that it has not had in the past, because it will be on a for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) about his leadership statutory basis and include the real powers that I have on matters concerning the Bill and our general work. It described. That is why I and the Committee feel confident has been a genuine pleasure to work with him over the in saying that we will have a tougher, more effective and past two years. more reliable system of oversight than we have ever had The debates that we have had on national security over in our history or than can currently be found in almost the past decade have been among the most important any country in the western world or globally. exchanges in the House over that period. They have taken us to the heart of the balance between individual Hazel Blears: I pay tribute to the right hon. and liberty, including the rights of those who are suspected learned Gentleman for his leadership of the Intelligence of plotting terror, and our collective security, including and Security Committee. I do not think we would have the most fundamental human right of all, the right to life. quite such robust proposals had it not been for his As we have responded to the new threats of global work. terror from al-Qaeda, it would have been a miracle if May I remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman Governments had been able to get everything absolutely of one small point? As the Bill is drafted, it would right first time. As I have said before in the House, I prevent the Committee from examining ongoing operations. accept that the proposals for 90-day and 42-day pre-charge If the Government were to ask us to consider a matter detention went too far, as an issue of practicality as well that was ongoing and not retrospective, that would be as one of principle, and Parliament was right to block forbidden. The Bill therefore needs to be amended on them. Equally, the judges were right to deem detention that point. without trial non-compliant with the rights of defendants. That, too, had to be replaced. Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I must first reciprocate the right It remains to be seen whether the reforms of the past hon. Lady’s compliment. She has made an enormous two years have gone too far in taking the balance away and much-respected contribution to the Committee’s from public safety. I certainly do not accept the narrative work. that everything that has happened since 9/11—all the The right hon. Lady raises an important point. Of extra resources provided to the intelligence and security course we accept that our oversight of operations must agencies and the stronger powers that Parliament has be retrospective and on matters of significant national decided on to deal with suspects—are a victory for the interest. However, there have been circumstances in securocrats, who hoodwink Ministers into illiberal measures which the Prime Minister of the day has invited the to undermine our basic freedoms. The simple fact is Committee to examine an ongoing operation on some that many thousands of lives have been saved because specific matter. In addition, there are sometimes occasions of the actions that Governments and Parliament have when, because of leaks and press awareness, an ongoing taken. At the same time, suspects have still been able to operation becomes a matter of public discussion and enforce their rights in the courts, and judges have debate. There must be flexibility in the Bill to allow the increasingly ordered the disclosure of information that Committee to examine such matters. The House should would have been held secret in the past. feel confident that, although we wish a number of The Bill deals specifically with the balance between improvements to be made in Committee, we are entering greater scrutiny and the limits that ought to apply in a a new phase of intelligence oversight. certain small number of civil cases. The Intelligence and 739 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 740

[Paul Goggins] long delays in the judicial process, even though the outcome could be staring the court in the face from the Security Committee has played an important role in outset. scrutinising the agencies, as its chairman said. That role In the short time remaining, there are two more issues far exceeds what was envisaged in 1994 and includes the that I should like to raise. If I am feeling brave enough, close examination of some ongoing operations. However, I might even table some amendments about them in due the ISC will be in a stronger position when it is a course. In relation to the order-making power, which Committee of Parliament and has greater powers and was in clause 11 but has now been dropped for reasons resources to ensure that it can get the information that of political consideration—presumably to make sure it requires rather than simply trusting that the agencies that the Bill completes its passage and that the main are giving it what it has requested. provisions remain—the cause of the concerns that prompted I place on record the tremendous debt that all members that power, which would allow the closed material procedure of the ISC, and therefore all Members of Parliament, in other proceedings, has not gone away. owe the small, dedicated team of staff who work to There are two particular types of proceedings that support it in all its work. The chairman of the ISC are relevant. The first is inquests, as I have said to the alluded to a number of issues that still need to be ironed Minister before. If there is secret intelligence that cannot out. I suggest that the starting point for our deliberations be revealed because it would result in the disclosure of in Committee should be that the Bill must not prevent sources, methodologies and so on, but which explained the ISC from doing anything that it is already doing in the cause of death, the coroner at the inquest should be practice. able to see it. It might be possible in most cases not to As we have heard in the opening Front-Bench speeches, have a closed material procedure. Lady Justice Hallett the most controversial part of the Bill relates to the did a fine job in making sure that intelligence could be closed material procedure. I do not intend to dwell on considered at the 7/7 inquest without the need for a the background to it, because others have spoken about closed material procedure, but I would not rule it out in the importance of the control principle and the difficulties future. The order-making power originally included in that the agencies currently face in defending themselves clause 11 would have provided an opportunity for Ministers, against civil claims. However, I want to make two as and when cases arose. points. The first is to confirm that the increasing reluctance I am thinking in particular of more than 30 historic of the United States intelligence community to share inquests that have still to be heard in Northern Ireland life-saving secrets with the United Kingdom is not a and where the deaths involved the police or Army. That made-up scare story. I have seen and heard, in frank is an issue that will not go away. I have raised it with the exchanges with colleagues in Washington when the Minister, and with other Ministers, and I have yet to Committee visited last year and earlier this year, that hear one disagree with my assertion that if it is right to that is a substantial problem that simply has to be dealt have a closed material procedure in civil cases, it is right with. to have it in inquests. I am thinking, too, of proceedings in relation to the judicial review of decisions to revoke Secondly, the agencies’ desire to defend themselves is the licences of convicted terrorists who have been released not about suppressing the truth, and it is not primarily from prison, but where there is intelligence that suggests about saving the taxpayer the millions of pounds that it that they are again engaging in terrorist activity. is currently costing, although those are substantial sums. It is about being able to defend their reputation and the high standards of those who take risks every day to Hazel Blears: My right hon. Friend has pursued the protect our freedoms. Clearly mistakes have been made issue of inquests with huge tenacity, and he makes an and individuals have been mistreated, but I simply almost irrefutable point: how are we to get a proper cannot accept the casual assertion that is often made, or decision in an inquest unless the full information can be at least implied, that the agencies are inevitably the bad put before the coroner? Certainly in the case of the guys while the claimants are always the blameless victims. historic inquests in Northern Ireland, inevitably, by its The comments of Lord Phillips and others during the very nature, that information will be private and secret consideration of the Bill in the other place, and the information from the intelligence agencies. I have yet to support that those independent-minded politicians gave hear an answer from the Government on that. for the closed material procedure, were very welcome. It is fair to say that the Bill has been improved in the other Paul Goggins: I do not make light of the issues. If place. It is right that judges have discretion and decide intelligence were shared with a coroner, but not with the whether the closed material procedure is appropriate. It family of the deceased, that would be a massive step, but is right that the courts must decide whether, on balance, it is better that we should know the cause of death rather the interests of national security are likely to outweigh than the whole thing remain a mystery. I am therefore the interests of fairness and open justice. The question grateful to my right hon. Friend for her intervention. of how that balance is to be struck, as the Minister without Portfolio said, is likely to be debated in detail in Committee. I was pleased to hear that he and the Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): My right hon. Friend Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, will not be surprised that I beg to differ strongly on that the hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James point. The idea that we can make a contribution to Brokenshire) intend to promote discussion in relation resolving issues of the past in Northern Ireland and all to PII. Under the Bill, consideration of PII should these inquests that have not taken place by creating a always come first, before the closed material procedure. closed material procedure simply will not wash, not As the Minister without Portfolio said, that could produce least in the light of the implications of the de Silva report 741 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 742 and the issues for many families, not just the Finucane Much of my time on the Committee was deeply family, in relation to some of the revelations, never rewarding, and gave me a great deal of respect for the mind the material that was not disclosed by de Silva. people who work in our intelligence services or assist them. Sometimes, however, it was like drilling into hard Paul Goggins: As ever, I warmly welcome the intervention rock, and the drill had not got through the rock by the of my hon. Friend, even though for some years we have time I left the Committee. There were still many areas disagreed on that point. It is good to know that he continues where the Committee did not have the information that to make the point and that we continue to debate the it ought to have had to make the right kinds of judgment. issue. He may be interested in my next point which The value of the Committee rests only partly on its relates to the judicial review of a decision to revoke the reports, which it makes to the Prime Minister. In future, licence of a convicted terrorist who has been released it will make reports to Parliament. There has been from prison, and where there is intelligence to suggest reference to an annual report: the Committee makes that that individual is again engaged in terrorist activity. numerous reports on different matters, and occasionally I shall refer to my specific experience in Northern it has to make a report exclusively to the Prime Minister Ireland. In 2008, I revoked the licence of a leading because none of the content can be revealed, so provision member of the Real IRA who was a convicted terrorist is made for that. The Committee’s value also rests on and had been allowed out of prison. Intelligence given the fact that it gives confidence to the House and to to me made it perfectly clear that he was again involved colleagues that there are people who have enough access in organising terrorist activity. That intelligence came to know whether there is likely to be incompetence, from the Security Service. He did not like the fact that I illegality or unacceptable behaviour going on. The revoked his licence and he went back to prison, but he Committee provides reassurance that if that were the challenged me for more than 12 months on that decision. case, it would challenge it. To do so, it needs depth of In the end, the case went all the way to the Supreme knowledge, which means being aware of what is going Court. The outcome was that he had to be released into on operationally. the community, though he was due to be released a few Some of the definitions in the Bill are capable of months after that date in any event. benign use, but also to hostile use, and could be used to The court made it clear that I had behaved perfectly restrict information. I do not think that that is the reasonably and lawfully throughout, but it demanded intention, but they could be improved significantly. The that more of the information on which I made my right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) decision should be given to the individual than the made a point about ongoing operations, and I think Security Service could possibly have allowed, so he that that is a limiting provision. When does an operation walked free. I simply say to the Minister—and it will be end? Many of our operations against terrorism are interesting to see whether the Under-Secretary will comment ongoing for as long as we think there is a threat, but we on this in his winding-up speech—that the issue will not have to know what is happening. If we look back to the go away, especially as an increasing number of convicted period leading up to the Finucane murder, for example, terrorists will come out of prison in the foreseeable it would have been wrong, if the ISC had existed then, future. I suggest that this is something that needs to be for it not to have had some understanding of the looked at. relationship between the Security Service and military Finally, I agree that the closed material procedure units such as the force research unit and the basis on used by the Special Immigration Appeals Commission, which information might be released by agencies and and included in the Bill, is not a perfect procedure, but get into the hands of paramilitary organisations. The to work as best as it can it requires the co-operation and Committee needs that level of understanding to meet advocacy of the special advocates who represent claimants the test I described, so the wording needs to be adapted. or defendants. I do not criticise special advocates because It would be wrong, and a terrible mistake, if the Committee they express strong opinions, and I do not question knew who was serving as agents and what handlers were their motives, but if Parliament decides that the provision finding in particular cases at particular times. That of a closed material procedure is a proportionate response information should be kept as narrowly as possible, but to the risks that we face, it is absolutely vital that special allowing understanding of the operation, why it is being advocates, like the rest of us, do whatever they can to conducted and on what lines is significant. make the system work. I hope that the Under-Secretary will tell us that he is engaging in a new initiative with Sir Malcolm Rifkind: My right hon. Friend may like special advocates that will mean that they will strive to to know that part of the intention of the reforms is to make sure that they can represent their clients in the ensure that we receive regular—probably quarterly— best way possible. The Bill is an important further step. reports on the spectrum of agency activity, including It was improved in the other place, and I am sure that it operations, subject to retrospection and significant national will be improved in Committee. interest. That gives us a broader awareness of the totality of agencies’ activities than has been possible in the past. 2.37 pm Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Having Sir Alan Beith: That is very helpful. There is a success served on the Intelligence and Security Committee for story here: the Committee is still building the relationships more than a decade after it was first established, I necessary to give the confidence I described earlier. I warmly welcome the action of Ministers in introducing pay tribute to those who have been involved in this on these new provisions. I have some slight reservations the Committee side as well as on the Government side. about improvements that are needed, but the measure is There will be occasions, as there have been in the past, a good indication of the importance that the Government when the public fear that power within the intelligence attach to the effective oversight of intelligence. sphere is being used inappropriately or, indeed, not 743 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 744

[Sir Alan Beith] information can be put before a court. None of us would want to have to use the process, but without it we effectively. A democratically elected body must therefore will not be able to decide cases on the evidence available. be able to provide reassurance that if something goes Another matter with which the Bill deals is the more wrong it will know about it and try to do something general application of the Norwich Pharmacal principle about it. to intelligence, on which the Government are right to The other part of the Bill deals with closed proceedings, act. I note the Intelligence and Security Committee’s which are also closely related to intelligence. I emphasise suggestion, which the Justice Committee can look at, that we are discussing civil proceedings, not prosecutions. on how we limit its application so that we more specifically Closed material proceedings are unwelcome, but it is refer to foreign intelligence and the control principle or difficult to see an alternative. They are necessary to information that would impair the effectiveness of our protect the operational effectiveness of intelligence services, security operations. The Government must act to defend including the secrecy of sources. The control principle our ability to acquire intelligence from elsewhere. of foreign intelligence is fundamental to intelligence operations: people do not give away their country’s Further improvements might be possible to make it intelligence unless they know it will not be misused. clear that a gisting process can work in cases where the special advocate realises that he cannot effectively challenge That is not a one-way process—other nations sometimes or assess evidence without more information that is in forget the control principle. I recall a rendition case in the possession of only the plaintiff. We must find some which our US allies did not observe the principle. Indeed, way of resolving that. We cannot allow the present the Committee reported on it because the intelligence position to continue, but we must get the Bill into the was provided on the basis that action would not be best state possible. taken, yet it was used to provide the basis for an action. That was an example of the control principle not being applied, but we must apply it; otherwise, we will not 2.46 pm gather the intelligence we need to protect our citizens. I pay tribute to the work of the Joint Committee on Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): I welcome the Human Rights, which the Justice Committee decided contribution of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon- was doing the work and should be allowed to get on Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who joined me last week in with it. Boundary lines between our two Committees seeking—and, I think, securing—clarification from the are often drawn, but the Joint Committee’s excellent Prime Minister of the Government’s intentions. May I work contributed hugely to their lordships making the say how pleased I am by the desire among Members on Bill more acceptable to those of us who come at it from both Front Benches to improve the Bill in Committee? a more liberal standpoint. Their lordships made it quite The Joint Committee on Human Rights, which I clear that although the Executive apply for closed material chair, spent a long time scrutinising the proposal before proceedings, the judge decides. the House today. We took the unusual step of holding The original subsection (2) of clause 11, which would an inquiry into the Green Paper that preceded the Bill have allowed the extension of closed material proceedings because some of the proposals in the Green Paper into other areas, was removed by a welcome Government constituted such a radical departure from the country’s amendment. Their lordships passed an amendment on constitutional tradition of open justice and fairness considering alternatives such as public interest immunity that we thought they deserved the most careful scrutiny. and a strict necessity test. The amendment appeared to Our examination of the Green Paper revealed serious be desirable, although my right hon. and learned Friend human rights concerns about a number of the proposals. the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) today indicated The Government accepted some of our recommendations that it could lead to some cumbersome processes, so it on the Green Paper, and when the Bill was introduced will be appropriate for the Committee to look a little in the other place they made some changes to the more closely at it. original proposals. The Government’s decision not to A court will be required to balance national security extend closed material procedures to inquests and the with fairness, transparency and the need for open justice. narrowing of the scope of the proposals to national The amendment that was unsuccessfully proposed to security material were particularly welcome. bring that process continuously into closed material proceedings was unrealistic—it is pretty difficult to The Bill as introduced still represented a radical satisfy foreign allies that we will apply the control departure from our traditions of fair and open justice. principle if the question is being reopened in proceedings Amendments made in the other place, based on some of daily. The Government have indicated that they will the recommendations made by my Committee, have accept the provision under which either side will be able improved the Bill, but I want to explain why the to invoke closed material proceedings. I find it hard to Government still have a long way to go in improving envisage the circumstances in which a plaintiff would this measure before they can plausibly claim that it is do so, but equality of arms requires that provision. I do compatible with British traditions of fairness and openness, not know why the Government resist the amendment of which this House has been a proud defender. proposing an annual report on the use of closed material Our starting point must be a recognition of how proceedings—a fairly simple requirement—but perhaps radical a departure from our common law constitution such proceedings will not be so frequent and only a it is to extend closed material procedures to civil proceedings. biennial report will be necessary. During my Committee’s scrutiny of the Bill the Government As a result of proceedings in the other place we are appeared to be in denial about this, but every other now close to achieving a reasonably satisfactory balance witness before our inquiry agreed about the enormity of in using difficult and unwelcome powers to ensure that what the Government propose. Let us not forget that in 745 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 746 the case of Al-Rawi the Supreme Court refused to interests at the gateway stage, when the court decides countenance such a radical change by judicial development whether a closed material procedure is appropriate. of the common law. However, the amendment to ensure that the same judicial Why does the Bill amount to such a radical departure? balancing takes place within the closed material procedure, There are two main reasons. First, we in this country when the court is deciding whether material should be have always enjoyed a right to an adversarial trial of a closed or open, was defeated in the Lords late at night. civil claim. This includes the right to know the case Labour backed the amendment recommended by my against us and the evidence on which it is based, the Committee in the Lords, and I hope it will do so in this opportunity to respond to evidence and arguments House. The amendment is essential to ensure that judges made by the other side, and the opportunity to call have the discretion they require to ensure that the Bill witnesses to support our case and to cross-examine does not create unfairness. opposing witnesses. Secondly, the House needs to listen to the expert views The second main reason why the Bill amounts to a of the special advocates and act on their recommendation radical departure from our constitutional traditions is that the Bill must include what has become known as a that it derogates from the principle of open justice—the “gisting” requirement, which has been referred to. My principle that litigation should be conducted in public Committee recommended that such a requirement be and that judgments should be given in public, so that included in the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010, the media can report fully and accurately to the public but the Government resisted, and the High Court last on what the courts decide. One of the central questions week held that such a requirement is necessary for the for the House is this: have the Government demonstrated, legislation to be compatible with human rights. The by reference to sufficiently compelling evidence, the House should not leave it to the courts to correct the necessity for such a serious departure from the fundamental Government’s mistakes, so we should amend the Bill to principles of open justice and fairness? My Committee give effect to the Committee’s recommendation. subjected to careful scrutiny the evidence that the Thirdly, the Bill needs to make provision for regular Government say demonstrates the necessity for making reporting to Parliament, as has been suggested. The closed material procedures available in civil proceedings. Secretary of State should report regularly for independent We appreciated the Government’s difficulties in proving review by the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, their case with reference to ongoing cases. We were and for annual renewal, to ensure a regular opportunity anxious to give them a proper opportunity to prove for Parliament to review the operation of the legislation their case and did so, but the Home Secretary refused to and to debate its continuing necessity. allow the special advocates to see the material that had Fourthly and finally, the Bill needs to be amended to been shown to the independent reviewer of terrorism provide a more proportionate response to the problem legislation. The Government were unable to provide the of preventing courts ordering the disclosure of national- Committee with a detailed breakdown of the civil damages security sensitive information. claims pending against them in which sensitive national In conclusion, I look forward to the House, particularly security information is centrally relevant to the case. in Committee, living up to its responsibility to ensure The Committee’s report on the Bill states that we that the legislation we pass is compatible with the basic remain unpersuaded that the Government have requirements of the rule of law, fairness and open demonstrated by reference to evidence that there exists justice. a significant and growing number of civil cases in which a closed material procedure is essential, in the sense that the issues in the case cannot be determined without a 2.55 pm closed material procedure. I am sympathetic to the Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): It arguments made by many human rights organisations, is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberavon including Liberty, Justice and Amnesty International. (Dr Francis), whose Committee—the Joint Committee They argue that, because the Government have not on Human Rights—produced the best guide to the made their case for introducing closed material procedures Government’s proposals and their weaknesses, and to into civil proceedings, that part of the Bill should be the threats they pose to our current civil liberties. removed altogether. Indeed, I note that a number of In recent months, the Prime Minister rightly received eminent lawyers in the other place voted to do just that. plaudits for how he handled the apology for the Bloody My Committee’s judgment, however, is that the Bill is Sunday massacre and the Finucane murder. He did so likely to pass in some form, and it is therefore better to with great openness and sensitivity. Both inquiries exposed seek to improve it with amendments that seek to make it unlawful killing, either directly or indirectly, by agents compatible with the important traditions of open justice of the state, and subsequent cover-ups. Thankfully, that and fairness. I will therefore not vote against the Bill sort of thing is extraordinarily rare in the UK. One today, but the Government are on notice of the need to reason why it is rare is that such things are exposed and show us the evidence that demonstrates the necessity for deterred by an open and transparent system of justice—the extending closed material procedures into civil proceedings. whole system of justice, including the criminal judicial The amendments made to the Bill by the House of system, the inquest system and the civil courts system. Lords made some of the necessary improvements, but I Measures in the Bill create the power to take parts of shall conclude by outlining four areas where the Committee that civil judicial system not just out of the public domain and I believe improvements are required. First, we need —that already happens in some ways—but completely provision for full judicial balancing of interests to take out of the normal judicial testing procedure. Under the place within a closed material procedure. The House of Bill, evidence can be presented by the Government that Lords—by an overwhelming majority—amended the the other side and their defence lawyers cannot see. Bill to ensure that there is full judicial balancing of That evidence cannot be tested, and therefore may be 747 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 748

[Mr David Davis] Mr Straw: The whole point of PII is that it excludes evidence. Therefore, by definition, there can be no wholly wrong and misleading, which undermines the compromise of national security in PII, but there can be very thing that makes our system work. no evidence before a court either.

Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): What role Mr Davis: PII balances the demands of national does the right hon. Gentleman imagine a defence lawyer security and justice—that is exactly what it does. I do would have in such proceedings? not want to be distracted for too long, but I discussed this at some length with Lord Pannick, whom my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington Mr Davis: A defence lawyer has the role of challenging (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) mentioned, with a number of the evidence, but I will come back to the right hon. lawyers who operate in this system all the time—not Gentleman’s point later. just as an aside or even as criminal lawyers, but all the The Bill is, in the words of Lord David Pannick, a time—and with the special advocates. This is not just leading barrister—indeed, he is the Government’s leading the view of some civil liberties extremists, as the Minister barrister of choice—“unnecessary, unfair and unbalanced”. without Portfolio tries to imply. It is the view of the Joint He said it is unnecessary because we already have the Committee on Human Rights, which is unpersuaded public interest immunity system. —the word it used—that the existing law is not up to the task. It is the view of almost all the special advocates, Sir Malcolm Rifkind: My right hon. Friend has chosen the lawyers who make closed material procedures work to quote Lord Pannick, but in the debate in the House and understand the procedure better than anyone else— of Lords on 11 July, he also said: indeed, I would argue that they are the only people who “I recognise that there may well be a need in some exceptional understand both the strengths and the weaknesses of cases for a…closed material procedure, but…this should be a last the procedure they operate. It is the view of Lord Pannick, rather than a first resort.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, as I said, and the view of the former Director of Public 11 July 2012; Vol. 738, c. 1176.] Prosecutions, Lord Macdonald, who had a formidable record of prosecution in terrorist cases in his time as DPP. Mr Davis: Exactly—or not exactly, in the context of The Government, the security agencies and their proxies this debate. Much depends on how the Government say the opposite, just as they did—in fact, we had the decide to respond to amendments made in the Lords. reference earlier—when the 7/7 inquest was proposed. What did MI5 say? It said that holding the inquest in Sir Malcolm Rifkind rose— public would amount to “handing over the keys” to its headquarters. It said that if evidence was not heard in Mr Davis: If my right hon. and learned Friend will secret then it might have to release information from forgive me, I have run out of injury time. top secret intelligence files. No such thing happened. Instead, we learned a great deal about what happened If a case involves sensitive information, the Secretary on 7/7. We learned about failings in operations, data of State asks the judge’s permission to keep documents handling and management—all perfectly proper things away from the court. The judge examines the evidence for the British public to know, and not a single failure of and makes a decision that balances national security security or intelligence. As the right hon. Member for with the interests of justice. Under the PII system, Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) said, Dame evidence can be shown in an edited form, and witnesses, Justice Hallett ran the inquest very well indeed, as we whether spies or special forces or whoever, can speak expect our security-experienced judges to do. That balance from behind screens. Suspects can be given the gist of was managed nearly perfectly. There is no doubt that the case against them, and the court can sit in open this sort of important information about the scrutiny of session or in camera. All those operations are possible the state is far more likely to come out in an open court under the PII system, which has served British justice of law than by any other means. I even include in well for decades, not just against the current threat of that the Intelligence and Security Committee, good terrorism, but against the Soviet threat, which in many job though it does; an open court is even more important ways was much more professional, and the previous than that. Irish terrorist threat. The proof of the PII system is that no Government, including this one, can point to a Many of the Government misdemeanours I have just single court judgment that has undermined national mentioned have been and gone—inquests held and security—not one judgment. claims settled. However, the problem of Governments using the rhetoric of national security as a shield for politically embarrassing information has not gone away. Mr Straw: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? In recent years, we have seen allegations of Government complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition. We Mr Davis: I will, but only because it is to the right have seen Gaddafi’s political opponents seized and handed hon. Gentleman. back to the Libyan dictator to face imprisonment and torture—the case that was settled last week. I suspect Mr Straw: The right hon. Gentleman is right that no we will be involved in the use of drones, which have one can say that PII has lead to a disclosure of evidence, killed scores of innocent people, because of intelligence. because PII excludes evidence—that is the whole point This issue of exposure of state misdemeanour in the of it. courts, therefore, is still very current indeed. It is worth looking at an example of how the state Mr Davis: I missed the right hon. Gentleman’s last currently uses closed material procedure when it is able. words. As luck would have it, we have a topical case right 749 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 750 now—the case of Serdar Mohammed. Two weeks ago, Justice Lord Kerr, former Government prosecutor in a British court heard allegations that a suspected Taliban Northern Ireland during the troubles, subsequently Lord terrorist, captured by UK forces, was tortured by Afghan Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, said: security services. A secret document was presented to “It would be, at a stroke, the deliberate forfeiture of a fundamental the court in redacted form, the way it would have been right which has been established for more than three centuries.” in a closed material procedure. Indeed, the document The Justice and Security Bill is being sold as a fair way was in the Maya Evans evidence case that my right hon. to protect our national security and justice. It does and learned Friend the Minister without Portfolio referred neither. to earlier. The court did not allow the redaction of the secret UK eyes only document, so we now have both the 3.7 pm redacted and unredacted copies in the public domain. We can, therefore, see what was redacted, supposedly Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): It is a pleasure for security reasons. to follow the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). I am not entirely sure that we will Paragraph 20 talks about a visit to this prisoner by see completely eye to eye in our contributions, but I British embassy staff and Royal Military Police. It hope that we will have the opportunity to debate the states: subject further. “The detainee showed the visit party...some of the injuries As a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee, which he claimed were made as a result of being beaten several I welcome the proposals in Part 1 of the Bill. They will times with steel rods to the areas of his legs and feet which he go a long way to ensuring that the scrutiny of our claims left him unable to stand afterwards. Photographs of some intelligence agencies is more robust and transparent. In of the alleged injuries are also annexed.” turn, that will give the British public a greater degree of Where the security interest of the British state is in reassurance that the intelligence agencies are properly redacting that, I do not know. It was absolutely material and fully scrutinised. That is important because they to the case in front of the court on Serdar Mohammed. spend a great deal of public money—approximately The information posed no threat to any agents, no £2 billion—and because they are involved in some of threat to any techniques, and no threat to any British the most controversial and difficult areas of our national national interest and yet that was one of the redactions. life and operations across the globe. The only negative effect of showing it in court, of I commend to the Minister the amendments ably and course, was the possible political embarrassment that deftly moved by my colleagues Lord Butler of Brockwell we may not have met our duties under international law and the Marquess Lothian in the other place, particularly and under the rules of war in protecting a prisoner who in relation to the issue about not limiting the Committee was technically under our command. This is exactly the to dealing entirely with retrospective matters, but giving sort of public interest information that could be concealed it some freedom to look at current issues if that is what if the Bill became law. the Government want us to do. I hope the amendments will be adopted. With closed material procedures enshrined in law, the intelligence agencies would inevitably be tempted to I want to add my thanks to those from the Chair of protest that any information relating to their activities the Committee and from my right hon. Friend the was “sensitive”. We have seen that before in the Binyam Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) Mohamed case. More cases would be heard in secret, to our current secretariat. They are few in number, but with no defence lawyers, victims, press or public present the work they do is amazing. I do not think that the to challenge or report what transpired. Evidence heard Committee would fulfil its role in the way that it does in secret cannot be easily challenged, and we need to without their insight, intelligence and intellect, and I address that. Inconsistencies cannot be spotted and pay tribute to them. witnesses cannot be properly cross-examined. Under If Part 1 of the Bill is relatively uncontentious, the these conditions, evidence may not be worth the paper it same cannot be said of part 2. My hon. Friend the is written on. Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis), the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, repeated the Let me give the House another example of how this phrase that these proposals are a “radical departure” system can fail. A few years ago, there was a control from our normal system of justice. That is also what order case, under the previous Government, where the Lord Pannick said in the other place and was the basis suspect was accused of entering Britain at a specific of all the evidence put before the Joint Committee. Yes, date and time using a fake passport, which was part of it is a radical departure. Under our normal system of the evidence. Shortly afterwards, exactly the same evidence, justice, evidence is heard in open court and challenged including the same fake passport, was used against a by adversarial cross-examination, and the judge weighs different suspect in another, totally unrelated case. They the evidence and comes to a reasoned judgment at the were both supposed to have used the same passport on end of the case. the same day, which was clearly not possible. It was only by lucky coincidence that the same special advocate, out Mr George Howarth: Does my right hon. Friend of approximately 70, was handling both cases. He recognised agree that, although these proposals are a radical departure, the evidence and was able to point out that this was the circumstances in which they would be used are also false. I do not believe that it was an intentional misleading a radical departure? of the court by the agencies; I think it was simply a mistake. However, it is a matter of public record and the Hazel Blears: My right hon. Friend is absolutely special advocate concerned is now a judge. That right. Since the terrorist threat to the country has increased, demonstrates how easily the CMP can fail miserably in particularly since 9/11, and remains a significant threat, critical issues of justice. That is why Supreme Court clearly other measures have had to be taken. 751 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 752

[Hazel Blears] Mark Durkan: My right hon. Friend referred to US concerns based on the Binyam Mohamed case. Does That is exactly the point: although everyone is saying she not, and do they not, recognise that no disclosure of that these proposals are a radical departure, actually we information was ordered by the courts here and that the have trodden this path before. As the Minister responsible disclosure actually happened in US proceedings, not for taking the control order legislation through the here? House, I know only too well the depth of feeling among Members on both sides of the House—this is hugely Hazel Blears: I think the Americans have a great deal controversial stuff about which people have very strong of concern about many legal jurisdictions when it results feelings. It is contentious among the legal profession, in information subject to the control principle being and there are many different views among judges and disclosed in open court. practitioners, but, as has been said, none of us wants to go down this path—it is not something that we relish Mr Tyrie: Is the right hon. Lady aware that the doing—but, if we are to protect national security and to American courts do not provide that absolute level of have a fair hearing of these issues, we have no other option. protection and that there is no reciprocation of the Last night, I tried something that the judges will have control principle in US courts, so it is perfectly possible, to do, which was a little balancing act: I drew up a table through the US court system, that information that we of arguments for and against the proposals to highlight have handed to the Americans could, in principle, find in my own mind where the balance in the Bill should lie. its way into the public domain? That point has been First, on the “for” side—the reasons I support the made once or twice already. It is crucial that both proposals for closed procedures—was the need to protect countries have a sense of balance and put their courts our international relationships and liaison with countries back at the centre of making that judgment. across the globe. Yes, that is about America, but it is not just about America; increasingly, many of the plots that Hazel Blears: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, threaten the UK have an international element and clearly the control principle relates to relationships between much more work now has to be done upstream—in the difference intelligence services and liaison countries. words of the security agencies—to disrupt terrorist Also, in America, they have the states secret privilege, training and plots that might manifest themselves in under which they can say, “This matter is not justiciable this country unless we can do work internationally as at all, because it covers matters relating to national well as in this country. That means we have to have these intelligence”, so in some respects it is a more draconian relationships. They are fundamental to the success of system than ours. We are seeking to find a balance, our fight against terrorism. rather than having an Executive veto, and I think that Some people have asked whether the threat that that is the right way to go. America might not co-operate with us as much as it has The second issue on my “for” list was about revealing in the past is real, or whether it is something that the capabilities, techniques and methods. As a member of security agencies are making up to force us down this the Intelligence and Security Committee, I am in a path. As the Americans would say, “You bet it’s real”. privileged position and have had an opportunity to When the Committee visited America last year, we were look at the current cases lodged for damages in civil told in no uncertain terms by law officers, the CIA and proceedings. I have looked at the grounds from the a whole host of agencies that the damage done not so applicants and the defence grounds from the agencies, much by the information in the Binyam Mohamed case, and it is startlingly clear that, were the defence to be but by the breaching of the control principle had shaken pursued, it would reveal techniques, methods, capabilities that relationship—I would not say to its foundations, and networks of agents, and that it would be impossible because it is a very strong relationship, but it had for the security agencies to pursue their defence in those shaken it—and resulted in a lack of information sharing. contemporary cases. Some people think that these cases are historical and that once we have dealt with the ones Mr David Davis: The right hon. Lady might not be from Guantanamo Bay, which we have, there will not be aware, but the greatest release of intelligence information any more coming down the track, but that is not the in history prior to WikiLeaks came in the Pentagon case. Many have happened recently, and, as the Minister papers. In that case, the American Government brought without Portfolio said, this jurisdiction is now becoming the control principle before their courts, and they were an attractive place to bring a claim, because the agencies turned down and vast amounts of data provided by are not in a position to defend themselves. foreign countries were released into the public domain—and that was not the last time; it has happened several times Thirdly and fundamentally, the system of closed since. Indeed, evidence to the Binyam Mohamed trial procedures will allow all the evidence to be put before stated that the US understood the issues about control the judge. That is the foundation here. If we have public because the courts in the states were independent. interest immunity, we exclude information from the judge, which is the opposite of what we are trying to Hazel Blears: I think the right hon. Gentleman gets achieve, and I do not believe that partial justice, in the balance wrong in that case. I think of the information which information that could go to the heart of the that the US has provided us with to protect our security. proceedings is excluded, is proper justice. I think of the bomb plot in April—the second underpants The final point that I weighed in the balance was bomb plot—where the liaison between the US and this about safeguarding the reputation of our agencies. My country was essential to preventing an incident that right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and could have cost many lives. We have to strike a balance, Sale East made the point very powerfully that these are but national security is our first responsibility to the people who, in some cases, put their lives on the line for country. our safety and that of those we represent, and when 753 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 754 they have to settle cases, as they did last week in the principles of open justice or fairness would reach for claim by Mr al-Saadi, people will inevitably draw inferences. the closed material procedure, public interest immunity They will say, “There’s no smoke without fire. There certificates, confidentiality rings or in camera hearings must have been something in it, if the Government are to try to achieve a measure of justice in the national prepared to pay £2 million”, and that puts the agencies security context. It is unarguable that extreme caution in an invidious position. Men and women of integrity and extreme conservatism—with a small c—should be and honour who dedicate their lives to the protection of our starting point in approaching limits to those this country are smeared by the implication that they fundamentals of the rule of law of which we are so have been complicit in torture or mistreatment. It might rightly proud here in the UK. have happened in some cases, but I would rather that all I have previously made it clear that I had significant the information was before the judge, because at least reservations about the Bill. I accepted the principle that then the services could get a proper decision, rather the closed material procedure might be appropriate in than have their integrity smeared, which I think is exceptional cases and as a last resort—that was also the outrageous. position of David Anderson QC, who, unlike the majority My final point is about taxpayers’ money. It is not of us here today, has been able to review some of the our main issue, but many millions of pounds has been evidence that forms the Government’s case for the Bill—but paid to people, some of whom might not have had I was not so happy with the details of the Bill in its legitimate claims had we been able to get them into original form. court. If we are giving them millions of pounds, there is I will restrict my remarks to part 2, which deals with the prospect of some of it being used to fund further the secret courts provisions. In particular, I found it extremist or terrorist activity. That is totally unacceptable. difficult to accept the lack of discretion available to There are a number of outstanding questions, and I judges; the inequality of arms; the failure to ensure that have no doubt that the Minister will explore them in CMP would be triggered as a last resort and only when fine detail in Committee. I look forward to the prospect strictly necessary; and the order-making power in clause of discussing them with him. I want to make a couple of 11. A Bill containing such provisions did not give the final points now, however. The decisions to accept impression of limiting our traditions of open justice discretion and to move from “must” to “may” are and fairness reluctantly, or of doing only the minimum welcome. If this is really to be a judge-led process, that to achieve the Government’s stated aims of preserving is where we need to be. I also want to make a point to our vital intelligence links while enabling the Government the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden, to defend themselves against civil claims. I must be who is no longer in his place. He talked about the court honest and say that I would have struggled to vote for being able to look at each piece of information; that is such a Bill. exactly what the court will be able to do. The judge will be able to look at each piece of evidence and ask The Lords amendments have put a different Bill whether it goes to the heart of the issue and whether it before us today, however; they have addressed every one should be kept secret or disclosed. If there were a of the points that I have just raised. They have strengthened redacted paragraph that had no national security the Government’s attempts to achieve their stated aims. implications, for example, the judge would be able to I am pleased that the Government have accepted the determine that it could be disclosed. PII would be amendment that will enable judges to exercise a measure available, and the matter would not even be before the of discretion. Replacing the word “must” with the word court, so the right hon. Gentleman’s point really did not “may” might not seem like much to the casual observer, support his argument. On the PII issue, I have misgivings but to the non-state party in court, that will mark the about the length of time involved and the cumbersome difference between an obligation on the judiciary to nature of the process in every case. I want to explore the grant CMP, on the one hand, and confidence in an balancing judgment to get this in the right place. independent decision made in the courts and not the Home Office, on the other. Our judiciary has so far This is a necessary Bill. As I have said, this is not a shown itself to be trustworthy when it comes to protecting move that any of us relishes making. We are democrats our national security interests, and decisions of the in this country, and we believe in the rule of law, but if courts must clearly be theirs and not the Government’s, we are to protect our national security and get the if the judiciary is to command respect here and abroad. balance right, it is essential that we support it. I was sorry to hear that the Minister without Portfolio was not convinced by arguments to allow judges to take 3.20 pm into account whether alternative, existing procedural measures might be more appropriate in the first instance. Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): Many of those measures provide more minimally invasive It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for ways of excising national security material from the Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). I am not a lawyer, a mass of evidence in a case and therefore keep more of former Home Office Minister or a member of the the proceedings in the public eye. Put more clearly, Intelligence and Security Committee, so I will speak rather than reaching for the total blackout of the CMP with humility. I would like to start by paying tribute to in the first instance, combining existing mechanisms the members of the Joint Committee on Human Rights such as PII certificates, confidentiality rings and in and the Members of the other place who have already camera hearings could well be more effective. That done much to illuminate and improve the workings of could achieve a more open justice, not compromise too the Bill. greatly on fairness and still preserve the safety of intelligence The Bill clearly sits at the juxtaposition of justice and for the majority of cases. It is important for us to know national security. As a result, it involves less than perfect that that will be the default position, and that the CMP solutions, in both directions. No one pursuing absolute will not become the lazy or inappropriately risk-averse 755 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 756

[Nicola Blackwood] system, is to be abhorred. However, when the choice is between no justice—due to national security material in option rather than a necessity due to the nature of the evidence causing cases to collapse—and a measure of evidence in specific cases or the desire of the applicant justice achieved by CMP, we have an uneasy choice to to rely on the sensitive information in their argument. make. If we can hedge CMP around with sufficient There will always be hard cases, such as that of protections for both parties—by keeping the amendments al-Rawi, that prove that PII certificates might not be that will ensure sufficient judicial discretion and equality appropriate, perhaps due to the sheer volume of sensitive of arms and allow courts to ensure that CMP in civil material involved, but such hard cases do not make courts is limited to truly exceptional cases as a last good law and they prove nothing more than that there resort, and by ensuring that the gisting obligation is will be exceptional cases in which PII will not work and honoured—then and only then will the gains in fairness that this new alternative might be necessary. I think that just about make up for the losses in openness. If those we can trust the judiciary to work that one out. I also protections are not put in place, however, we will lose think that that course of action is sensible and the very fairness and openness, and it will be extremely difficult least that can be done to reassure all parties to the to justify these changes. litigation and the public that a decision to invoke CMP was strictly necessary and that all alternative solutions 3.28 pm had been ruled out first. Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Before I come to I am pleased that the Government have also accepted the merits of the Bill, I would like to draw the House’s the argument on equality of arms. It is worth remembering attention to the fact that, along with Her Majesty’s David Anderson QC’s evidence to the Joint Committee Government, I have been a defendant in civil actions on Human Rights on this matter. He said: brought by two Libyan nationals and their families— “I am a little baffled by this. It is very much part of the Mr al-Saadi, who has already been mentioned, and Government’s justification for the Green Paper and the Bill that a Mr Belhaj. A settlement was made public last week in closed material procedure can achieve fairness for individuals respect of Mr al-Saadi’s case without any admission of whose claims would otherwise have been struck out.” liability by any of the defendants. In the case of Mr Belhaj, It is illogical to exclude an application for CMP if the proceedings are still active. In these circumstances, the Government are arguing that the procedure would achieve House will, I am sure, understand how constrained I fairness in such circumstances. I hope that the Government must be in respect of these matters at the present time. I will continue to put forward that justification. hope to be able to say much more about these cases at So far, I have made the case for the Government an appropriate stage in the future. I should, however, retaining amendments that have already been made, make it clear that at all times, in all the positions of and I am grateful to them when they have done so. I Secretary of State that I occupied, I was scrupulous in would also like to discuss an issue that has affected seeking to carry out my duties in accordance with the many special advocates, who have made it clear that law. CMPs are “inherently unfair”. That is inevitable, given On a lighter note, I apologise Mr Deputy Speaker, to the circumstances, but the situation should be mitigated you and to the House that I may have to leave if the as much as possible. A major problem that special winding-up speeches go past 6.15 pm, as I have to advocates have identified relates to their inability fully conduct an open air carol service beyond the House at to represent clients when they are unable to disclose 7 pm. sufficient information to elicit effective instructions from Let me move on to discuss the Bill. As Home Secretary the client. This obviously turns on how effectively and and Foreign Secretary, I was responsible over a period consistently the “AF No. 3 gisting obligation” is applied. of nine years for all three of the agencies—a distinction, Lord Carlile, in his evidence to the JCHR, explicitly I gather, I share only with the noble Lord Hurd in the acknowledged that that obligation should apply to all other place. During those nine years, I came to have a proceedings as a default. I am not yet convinced that very high regard indeed for the agencies, for their leadership the language in clause 7(l)(d), which states that the and for all the staff who work for them. I also recognised court need only “consider”providing a summary, matches that it is through improved methods and means of that interpretation. accountability that the quality and standing of those I hope that the Government will address that matter agencies can be improved and not undermined. I therefore in Committee. Unless they demonstrate good faith in greatly welcome the proposals in part 1 to strengthen relation to open justice and state that disclosure will the role and status of the Intelligence and Security be the default position except in truly exceptional Committee, and, indeed, to add to the powers of the circumstances, it will be difficult to persuade a sceptical Intelligence Services Commissioner. public that the measures proposed today are necessary The more controversial aspects of the Bill—on closed and proportionate. I am afraid that I disagree with the material proceedings—are contained in part 2. The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East starting-point for everyone in this House has to be that, (Paul Goggins) about the removal of clause 11. His in principle, justice must be open and has to be seen to points on individual courts might be true, but an order- be done. This House and our courts have rightly established making power that does not define the courts involved a high bar for any modification of that principle. Sometimes, should not be included in the Bill. It is appropriate that however, they have so modified that principle where it such extreme measures should be fully debated in the collides with other equally important principles. One of House. those concerns the safety of witnesses in criminal trials. Any measure that threatens the rule of law in the UK, Thus, in the Criminal Evidence (Witness Anonymity) or that sends a message that we do not uphold the Act 2008, following the Law Lords’ decision in the highest standards of openness and fairness in our judicial Davis case, I introduced—and both Houses quickly 757 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 758 passed—a statutory scheme providing for witnesses who actions would have been entertained. Had they been would otherwise be in grave danger, to give their evidence tried, they would have been struck out by the judge under the protection of anonymity. That evidence is still because there was no evidence. heard by the defendant and his counsel, as well as by the The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon jury: it is the identity of the witness, not the evidence (Nicola Blackwood) is looking at me sceptically, but itself, that is kept confidential. before 1989, the existence of the agencies was not even There is, then, the situation that this Bill seeks to admitted publicly. The present situation is relatively address, where the clash with the principle of open new. It arises precisely because of the work done by justice is the greater. That is where in civil actions, not successive Governments in the last 20 years to make the just the identity of the witness, but the evidence they agencies accountable, and not for any other reason. give, is kept confidential from one of the parties and their counsel—typically in circumstances where the action Jeremy Corbyn: Does my right hon. Friend really is against the state. think that the work of an Intelligence and Security My hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis), Committee all of whose members have been appointed who I regret is not in his place at the moment, talked by the Prime Minister amounts to open and democratic about part 2 being a “radical departure” from accepted parliamentary scrutiny? principles of the common law. The irony is that the first “radical departure”to establish closed material proceedings Mr Straw: That has been the charge against the ISC came as a result of the decision of the European Court in the past, and I am glad that things are going to of Human Rights in the Chahal case. As the Minister change. However, I can tell my hon. Friend that I have without Portfolio pointed out, closed material proceedings given evidence to the ISC on a number of occasions, were established in response to those human rights concerns and it is no patsy Committee. It is composed of senior and at the behest of the same human rights lawyers who parliamentarians from both Houses, and they do a are now claiming that closed material proceedings represent proper and effective job. The challenge for my hon. some fundamental breach of human rights. If I may say Friend is to explain how, given the nature of its subject so, they do not, and the Special Immigration Appeals matter, that job could conceivably be done by means of Commission process has been found to be completely open hearings. It is not possible. The choice is between consistent with the European convention. an ISC that operates in the way that the Bill proposes, As we know, SIAC’s task is to determine whether a and the absence of any kind of parliamentary scrutiny. deportation order made against an individual on grounds I know which I choose. of national security should be executed. The special Let me now deal with the arguments that have been advocates see all the evidence, and their duty—formally advanced against closed material proceedings. The most to the court and not to the client—is to have all the frequently used argument is that we should resort to secret evidence tested as forensically as possible before public interest immunity certificates. I accept that, if the tribunal, but the deportee cannot know what the possible, “gisting” should be used or the court should evidence is. As a result, there is an especial burden on sit in camera, but in most cases those options are not the tribunal to test this evidence. possible. Public interest immunity certificates are used Those who are sceptical about SIAC, or any closed fairly often, but they work effectively only when the material proceedings, need to address themselves to evidence that they seek to exclude is relatively peripheral SIAC’s record. I mentioned in an intervention on the to the proceedings. If they are used in relation to Minister without Portfolio that of 37 substantive cases evidence that is central to the case, they make it impossible before SIAC since January 2007, in at least seven, SIAC for a trial of the action to take place at all. They do not has found against the Government—and the cases do protect evidence and make it safely usable in court; they not go there in the first place unless the evidence is quite exclude it altogether. strong. SIAC could not operate without closed material Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Does the proceedings at its heart. The question before the House right hon. Gentleman agree that the observation by my today is whether such proceedings should be extended right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and to civil actions. In the case of al-Rawi, the Supreme Howden (Mr Davis)—I am sorry that he is no longer in Court decided that if CMP were to be extended to civil the Chamber—that PII certificates have not imperilled actions, that must be a matter for Parliament rather national security was obviously correct but utterly banal? than the courts. Its decision followed the approach of As long as we are willing to drop all these cases and pay the Law Lords in R v. Davis. millions of pounds, national security will not be affected, I make no complaint about that. For all the talk but the Exchequer will be. about alleged excessive judicial activism, in both cases the Supreme Court and the Law Lords were simply Mr Straw: Yes, and using PII certificates in respect of saying “We cannot make the law here in order to extend evidence that is central to a case is profoundly unjust to the law; this is a matter for Parliament.” That seems to both sets of parties. me entirely appropriate, and I take issue with the suggestion Dinah Rose is a leading critic of the proposals in of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon that it was the Bill. I have looked carefully at her response to the as big a “radical departure” as he and his Committee consultation document, which was published earlier had claimed. The truth is that there was no necessity for this year. any radical departure in respect of the accountability of the intelligence agencies until 15 years ago, because She stated, before then the agencies were not accountable at all. “PII is not perfect—it does result in some cases being tried There was no way in the world in which any of these without all evidence being available.” 759 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 760

[Mr Straw] That leaves part 2, which is about the hugely important issue of how we deal with civil cases—I repeat, civil She also stated that in rare cases: cases—in which there are intelligence issues that cannot “PII may also result…in a situation in which a party is ordered easily be shared with the watching world. I say civil cases, to disclose a document which it is not prepared to disclose, but there is one question that was not entirely answered leaving it no alternative but to settle the claim.” by my very good and noble Friend Lord Wallace of She is being disingenuous, because in these national Tankerness, who spoke for the Liberal Democrats and security cases we are talking about not a document—her the Government in the House of Lords, when he was word—but bundles of documents that are central to the asked about the application of habeas corpus, which is adjudication of the action. not necessarily a civil case in the full sense. He was not I, like the Minister, dealt with lots of PII cases and entirely clear whether closed material proceedings could had to work through them very carefully. If there were apply in a habeas corpus application, and that will need thousands of documents, as there would be in these to be specifically addressed as we have to know exactly cases, a Minister would have to take a month or so off where we stand as we deal with the Bill. to operate that and, at the end, if the court accepted the When the first proposals were published in the Green PII application, there would be evidence that could not Paper, my Liberal Democrat colleagues and I were be used in the case. extremely nervous about them. We were concerned that Ms Rose concludes her summary by referring to the they gave far too much power to the state and far too need for “potential misconduct” by the agencies to little power to the courts, and that they crossed the line “see the light of day”. between the open courts we have always accepted as the I absolutely agree with her sentiment. The problem is right principle and courts with a restricted process. The that in the absence of CMPs, there is no way of determining former Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, misconduct by members of the agencies in a civil action. the Minister without Portfolio, fairly said that the The most that can happen is a settlement out of court Government wanted to consult and they did, and they with a payment into court but no admission of liability. have listened to the responses to the Green Paper. There That is profoundly unjust to both sides. It is unjust to is an argument that there could have been a White the complainant, who might well have right on their Paper, but that is not a central argument for today. It is side but who is denied the means to have the court find particularly helpful that not only at the beginning, but in their favour, and equally unjust to the agencies and by the time the Bill came to the Lords, some changes their staff, who might also have right on their side but had already been made. My right hon. Friend the no means of making their defence. Deputy Prime Minister and colleagues had argued for these changes and set out what, for us, were the bottom In the other place, various amendments were made lines. In April that was made clear. One of them was that were designed to strengthen the role of the courts that we should restrict the scope of the Bill to national in determining whether and, if so, how CMPs should be security cases only: done. The second was that we used. They will be examined upstairs and I look forward should remove inquests: done, although I hear what the to the result of the Committee. I am in no doubt about right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) the necessity of the Bill and if the sceptics want to make said. There is an inquest question and I do not want to the agencies more accountable, they should have this Bill— be dismissive of that. The third was ensuring that closed Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. material proceedings were triggered by an application to a judge, not by a decision by Ministers. 3.41 pm Those steps represented good progress. The Bill then went to the Lords, where it was the subject of long Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) deliberation. It was also examined by the Joint Committee (LD): It is pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for on Human Rights. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Blackburn (Mr Straw), the former Home Secretary, and Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) who the House will give due weight to his considered served on the Committee for almost its entire work on contribution. This Bill is clearly important. The world the Bill. I declare an interest: I joined the Committee at outside might not have realised that it is in three parts: the very end of its proceedings on the Bill. Effectively the third is the ancillary part and is very small, the first the work had been done. There was unanimity on the appears almost to have consensus on both sides of the Committee as to the changes that should be made. House, and the second is clearly still controversial. Let me first say a word about part 1. Ever since I have I welcome the fact that the recommendations made been in this place, I have felt that it was right that the by the Joint Committee have almost entirely been picked responsibility for intelligence and security matters should up by the House of Lords on Report and supported by transfer from the Prime Minister to Parliament. It has a majority in the Lords—in many cases, large majorities— been a gradual, careful and considered process, but it is against the Government. They have made the Bill a right that we have now done that as all three major better Bill, with many of the safeguards that we want. I parties made a commitment that it should happen. I hope the Minister without Portfolio and his colleagues pay tribute to the current Committee and its predecessors, in the Home Office will accept the principle of all the but it is clearly right that people elected by the people amendments that have come to us from the Lords. The should hold our security and intelligence services to Joint Committee wants that to happen and I would urge account. With some small further changes that colleagues that, as would my party colleagues. have debated, we will be on the right track and I In between those two things we debated the Bill at anticipate that the newly reconstituted Committee will our Liberal Democrat conference in Brighton, and it soon be doing a very important job. I pay tribute to all got a resounding thumbs-down from my colleagues as colleagues who are members of the Committee. going far too far across the line to closed courts from 761 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 762 open courts. I understand that, and I am sensitive to it Reviewer’s evidence we wrote to the Minister in charge of the Bill as I make my remaining comments this afternoon. on 23 October to ask how many civil damages claims were currently pending”. John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): With Just after the Committee wrote the report, the Advocate- reference to our party conference, there are those who, General for Scotland, my noble Friend Lord Wallace of like me, would perhaps see closed material proceedings Tankerness, replied to that: limited to the quantum and the consideration of the “I can confirm that as of 31 October 2012, there are 20 such quantum rather than the substantive issue. Perhaps that live civil damages claims (including those stayed and at pre-action would be an alternative that would attract more support stage). There are also a number of other live cases, including from the party. judicial review challenges.” He went on to elaborate the detail of that figure. I think Simon Hughes: That is a point of view, but I am not we have to accept that that is roughly the number of sure. I have not discussed it with my hon. Friend. The cases we are talking about, but some of them are very point of view of our colleagues was that we have to be significant cases and cannot be dismissed. very careful when we move away from open justice. We We must therefore take seriously the challenge that have to accept the evidence of those who say it is not the Government have brought us. My honest view is necessary. The Joint Committee heard from the special that we have to allow the defence better access to the advocates that it was not necessary. They did not support information, either through special advocates or by the proposal and we should give that due weight. another means. It is on the new word that has only The central issue is what the procedure will be in recently come into our language—“gisting”, which means order to protect the security interests on the one hand, allowing the defence to see not every iota of evidence, but make sure that we deliver a fair outcome to a but the gist of it—that we need to do the most work in reasonable case on the other. The existing system, the Committee. I think that there must be a mandatory public interest immunity system, means that Ministers requirement that the information be given in summary declare documents secret and therefore they cannot be to the defence and that the defence—they can be specially used. It is a very simple system, although it can be time cleared defendant advocates or representatives—can consuming. I accept the argument that that often means see the evidence, respond and take instructions on it. If that a case cannot be carried through to a conclusion, we are going to say that we will allow the courts to go so I am not here to defend the idea that the PII system is into closed session, it seems to me that we need the the solution to all our difficulties. security of knowing that the defendant will have the right to know the case against them and the right to Happily, the Bill is now drafted in such a way that challenge. I hope that the Committee will do some consideration has to be given to that option first, and to detailed work on that over the coming weeks. whether, if certain documents are withheld, the trial can none the less proceed fairly. But if that is not the answer I agree that we need to deal with the Norwich Pharmacal entirely, we have to consider whether there is something situation, because at the moment we are precluded from else. I want to flag up the changes that have been made using intelligence from abroad because of the court’s and the ones that I think might get us nearer to what my overriding power to have that put into the public domain. party colleagues would like to see, as would many That has to be dealt with, because it is clearly unsatisfactory. people who have written to us. I agree that we need to have a reporting and reviewing process and allow the media to make representations, as First, it is right that we should stick to the idea that recommended by the Joint Committee. the discretion is with the judge, not with Ministers of the state as an alternative. That is why the change I have two final points. First, we must ensure the referred to by the hon. Member for Oxford West and judicial balance of national security against the public Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood), that the judge “may” interest takes place in the second stage of the closed do things, rather than “must” do things, is the right material proceedings process, not just at the gateway. change—small word but big implication in the context Secondly, we have to consider whether we can just sign of clause 6. We have added the requirement to look at off this legislation forever or whether we have to come alternatives, such as the PII alternative. We have also back to it in a certain number of years. This is very added the requirement—a good one—that all parties to unusual territory for us. Civil liberties are at risk. We the proceedings can apply for closed material proceedings, have made progress, but we are not there yet. or that could happen at the judge’s instigation, which is a good thing. We have also dealt with the inquests issue. 3.53 pm However, we have not dealt with the fundamentally Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): It is important issue of how a defendant can see the evidence interesting to follow the right hon. Member for Bermondsey against them, and that is what gave the Joint Committee and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). He said that there on Human Rights its biggest difficulty. The Committee was a lack of evidence to support the need for change, made it absolutely clear in its report’s conclusions that, which was reminiscent of where the proposal for 90-day because we had not had the information that justified pre-charge detention fell down. I believe that part 2 of the case and had heard from the special advocates that the Bill threatens to undermine the principle of natural they were not persuaded, even though the Government’s justice that demands that parties to an action should be official reviewer said he was persuaded, it was not given access to the case they confront. The Bill is deeply persuaded either. That is set out in paragraphs 44 to 46. contentious, but some vital amendments have been There was uncertainly about how many cases we were made by the other place and I think that they must be talking about. Paragraph 42 states: upheld as a bare minimum, although I am sure that I “In the light of the lack of clarity about whether the number of am not alone in wishing that certain elements of the Bill pending claims is 27, 15, 6 or 3, and in the light of the Independent be removed entirely. On my reading, even as amended 763 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 764

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd] Furthermore, under clause 6 as it originally stood, only the Government would have been able to apply for the Bill could result in members of the public losing a CMP and not both parties. That is objectionable. The their cases against the state without ever having been amendment on that is also welcome and I hope that it told why, in the Government’s being allowed to hide will be retained, although I am sure that the circumstances evidence of wrongdoing, and in officials being given the in which a plaintiff or claimant would apply would be power to exclude the other party from court proceedings. limited. As Reprieve points out, that effectively means that they I wish to refer to comments made by Lord Hodgson could place themselves beyond challenge and hence on Report in the other place. He said: above the law. “I would like to see enshrined in the Bill a set of steps-hurdles…that Last week, we heard about the Finucane case. We were the Government of the day will have to clear before they can all heartily disgusted at what went on—the collusion resort to a CMP. The first is a requirement to go through the public interest immunity procedure, from which the judge can between the police service and the security services. reach a balanced conclusion on whether the interests of national God forbid, but if such a thing happened again, I security require a closed court.” believe that the Bill would make it easier for the state to In the same debate, Lord Pannick, a pre-eminent Queen’s prevent a family from suing in such circumstances. Counsel, is recorded as arguing that Have we thought about that? “a judge in an individual case should have a discretion, not a duty, Part 2 also sets out the Government’s intention to to order a CMP.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 21 November remove the courts’ power to order someone who has 2012; Vol. 740, c. 1812-14.] been involved in wrongdoing to disclose information—the I urge the Government to take heed of those arguments Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction, which needs to be and to uphold the amendments carried in the other place. considered in Committee. Perhaps the most disturbing provision of all is in I shall restrict my remarks to the proposed extension clause 7(1)(d), which provides that, if a CMP is triggered, of closed material procedure—known as “secret courts” a court is not required to give the excluded party a in outside parlance—to all civil proceedings in clauses 6 summary of the closed material. Rather, the Bill as to 13. Responding to those provisions, the president of drafted requires only that the court should “consider the Law Society and the chairman of the Bar wrote to requiring” that such a summary be given. Clause 7(1)(e) the Minister without Portfolio saying: provides that the court must ensure that where a summary is given it “CMPs…undermine the principle that public justice should be dispensed in public and will weaken fair trial guarantees and the “does not contain material the disclosure of which would be” principle of equality of arms. These are both essential elements of against the rule of law.” “the interests of national security.” I might also add, as others have, that they undermine the principle that justice must be seen to be done. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I am listening very carefully to the right hon. Gentleman. Is We have heard what the Joint Committee on Human not the problem with his argument on clause 7 that Rights has said. It has been vocal in its criticism of the there will be cases, if only perhaps a very few, where legislation and has drawn attention to the gisting will not be possible without revealing the essence “troubling lack of evidence of any actual cases demonstrating the of what needs to be secret? Therefore, is it not essential problem which the” to retain some discretion for the court to “consider”, and does that not give more power to the judges? Government “asserts to exist.” At no point have the Government produced any known case that could not Mr Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman has obviously thought be tried under the current public interest immunity about this, and he may well be right, but at the moment system, which I have seen operate over many years as a we are all looking into a rather dark room as we do not legal practitioner myself. know what we are actually facing. What he says is quite The special advocates memorandum says logical, and I accept it, but I remain concerned. “CMPs are inherently unfair and contrary to the common law Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I am tempted on the tradition...the Government would have to show the most compelling whole to agree with the thrust of the right hon. Gentleman’s reasons to justify their introduction...no such reasons have been argument, but I draw his attention to clause 7(3), which, advanced; and...in our view, none exists.” if I understand it correctly, requires that the court It speaks volumes that the special advocates memorandum would direct that the party would not be able to rely on was so scathing about what the legislation purports to such points unless they provided a summary. I am do; special advocates, of course, are better qualified to therefore not sure that his argument stands. comment than anyone else. Among their concerns was the fact that the Bill as originally drafted required a Mr Llwyd: I believe that it does. judge to allow the Government’s application for a CMP if there was any material at all that could damage Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Will the right national security, even if the judge considered that the hon. Gentleman give way? case could be fairly tried under the existing PII. The memorandum also makes the point that the decision on Mr Llwyd: I would like to make some progress. whether to trigger a CMP should lie with a judge and I have no time to deal with that at this stage. The hon. not the Secretary of State—an amendment to that Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) may be right; I do effect has been carried and is most welcome; I hope that not know. I would like to discuss it with him on another it will remain in the Bill. occasion, perhaps in Committee. 765 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 766

If clause 7 goes through unamended, there will be no 4.5 pm requirement to give excluded parties sufficient information about the case. I have heard the arguments about gisting, Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I am grateful that this but surely in 99.9% of cases the gisting procedure will Bill began its journey in the other place, so that people, be the answer, coupled with other safeguards, one hopes. such as myself, who are not learned could have the benefit of the thoughts of some of our most senior Nicholas Blake QC, in giving evidence to the Eminent lawyers. I took two things in particular from their Jurists Panel on Terrorism, Counter-Terrorism and Human deliberations on Report: first, that many of our great Rights, made the following comments on the situation legal minds support the Bill, and secondly, that they that would arise after a judgment is given: support it with their suggested amendments. “If the special advocate thinks there is an error of law in the Lord Pannick has been quoted and counter-quoted, closed judgment, he gets permission to say, to pass the message but, for the benefit for those of us who are not learned, out to the other team to say ‘I think that you should be appealing, he said that I can’t tell you why’...So there is a sort of open appeal. ‘We think there is something wrong but we don’t know what it is.’ And then “the proposals constitute a radical departure from the cornerstone the court goes into closed session, so it is antithetical to every” of our legal system: the right of a party to know, and to challenge, his opponent’s case” , principle and: “of due process and open justice.” “The Government’s proposals in themselves constitute a significant The Joint Committee on Human Rights has urged the reputational risk to our system of justice.” —[Official Report, Government to ensure that if CMPs are to be extended, House of Lords, 21 November 2012; Vol. 740, c. 1817-18.] there must be a I was particularly struck that Lord Phillips of Worth “statutory requirement in all cases to provide the excluded party Matravers, who was the first President of the Supreme with a gist of the closed material that is sufficient to enable him to Court, supported the Bill. give effective instructions to his Special Advocate.” When I consider the balance of liberty, justice and That is entirely reasonable, while taking on board what security, I am always inclined to go for liberty and the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) justice, but it would be difficult for me to oppose the Bill says about avoiding breaches of national security, and as presented. I hope the Government will look extremely so on. The Constitution Committee said in its report on sympathetically at the amendments that have been made. the Bill published in June this year: My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister without “In our view, the court should be required, for example, to Portfolio said specifically that he did not expect any consider whether the material could be disclosed to parties’ legal serious discussion about the principle behind the Bill. I representatives in confidence and whether the material could be was conscious of that when the hon. Member for Aberavon disclosed in redacted form.” (Dr Francis) seemed to confess, if I understood him A related point that must be raised is the knock-on correctly, that his Committee thought it would be futile effect that clause 7 may have on appeals in civil cases, to stop the Bill, so it sought to make the best of it. which is something that we really need to think through. There seems to be enormous momentum behind the The Law Society has pointed out that the extension Bill, but no particular enthusiasm to carry it through. of CMPs will have wider implications for civil litigation Why is there this sense of futility about what is a and the professional ethics of solicitors. Solicitors will cornerstone of our judicial system? My right hon. Friend be impaired in advising their clients on the merits of a the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) case and the prospects of success if they are unable to mentioned some of the instances that show that the see the evidence brought by the other party. They will state is not always to be trusted, so it is important that also be unable to advise on any prospect of an appeal, we ask ourselves why the particular set of circumstances so undermining the client’s right to legal assistance in under discussion should drive us forward. the determination of their civil rights and the fair trial There are two issues to consider. First, the highest guarantees under article 6 of the European convention principle of government today seems to be expediency on human rights. rather than ultimate values. Secondly, security is the The provisions contained in part 2 of this Bill will highest aim. We have come a very long way indeed since mark a departure—I am not saying that it will be the time when a British Prime Minister might have said radical, but it will be a departure—from the principles that necessity is the plea for every infringement of of open justice, and it will possibly undermine confidence human liberty—I expect that colleagues will know the in our justice system. I sincerely hope that this House rest of that. Indeed, in the face of a Bill such as this and will follow the example of the other place in seeking to the lukewarm support it has received, those of us who amend what appears to be an unbalanced Bill. Discretion think that liberty and justice are our best form of as to whether a CMP should be used must ultimately lie, security have very little to add. of course, with a judge and not the Secretary of State. Finally—I will finish early—we should not be surprised Although courts should be required to balance the if those outside the House who share my view that interests of national security against those of fairness, liberty and justice matter so much are extremely concerned. either party in proceedings should be able to apply for a If we put this measure in the context of the draft CMP and, perhaps most importantly of all, there should Communications Data Bill, the Government’s plans to be a statutory requirement in all cases to provide the reduce access to judicial review and, indeed, measures excluded party with a summary of the material to for general anti-avoidance rules for taxation, we see that enable him or her to give cogent instructions to the there is a significant rebalancing of power towards the special advocate representing his or her interests in state—and towards the administrative state at that. It is court. a disturbing path, but we seem unable to escape it. 767 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 768

[Steve Baker] Mr Howarth: The hon. Gentleman is correct and I am glad that he has added to what I have said. I hope that the Government will consider the amendments I will address my remarks on part 2 to closed material extremely carefully and that we will end up with a Bill in proceedings. Usually, if I find myself in agreement with which we can take at least some pride. the Minister without Portfolio and the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) 4.8 pm on these matters, it means that I am in the wrong and I Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): It is a pleasure change my position. They tend to be far more liberal to follow the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker), than me on these matters. who set out neatly and succinctly the competing principles that we are dealing with, particularly with regard to Mr Straw: Not difficult. clause 2. I speak as someone who has had the privilege of Mr Howarth: Indeed. However, I am reassured by the sitting on the Intelligence and Security Committee since unholy alliance that has been formed between my hon. 2005. Without trying to amplify my own influence, that Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) nevertheless gives me a certain insight into the matters and the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden under discussion. I will say a brief word about part 1 (Mr Davis). That has made me feel a little more secure and then rather more about part 2. about the extent to which I agree with those other As a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee, Members. I rather think that I have brought on an I welcome part 1 pretty much without reservation. Two intervention with that remark. issues have still not been fully addressed, but I think they can be resolved in Committee. The first relates to Jeremy Corbyn: An intervention has indeed been the oversight of operations, particularly when they are brought on. Will my right hon. Friend concede that ongoing. We have had oversight of ongoing operations during all the time we have been in Parliament, we have on occasion, and that ability, with the co-operation of always disagreed on anti-terrorism laws? I continue the agencies, has been quite important. That issue has with my position, because I believe in the power of the not been fully resolved in the Bill. I hope that it will be courts rather than in secrecy. resolved through further amendments or the proposed memorandum of understanding, but we are not quite Mr Howarth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. In there yet. fact, we have almost never agreed on anything, and as far as I am concerned, long may that continue. Paul Goggins: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is very important that the Bill does not prevent the I shall try to make it clear where I stand and what I Intelligence and Security Committee from undertaking think happened as the Bill progressed through the other the tasks and inquiries that it currently carries out? place. I start with a proposition that almost everybody would agree with—perhaps everybody other than my Mr Howarth: My right hon. Friend’s assertion is hon. Friend. It is that the state has to be able to hold right. I do not think it is anybody’s intention that that secrets. That is not a desirable state of affairs, but the should happen, but we have concerns that the current reality of relationships around the world and the problems wording might lead to that inadvertently. that we face even within our own country are such that the state sometimes has information that should remain The second issue, which has been referred to by uniquely its property. several hon. Members and initially by the Chairman of the ISC, the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington If that is the case, the question arises of what should (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), relates to the resources that it happen in court proceedings. Closed material proceedings will take for the Committee to do the job that is envisaged relate to civil cases. I do not know whether anybody in the Bill. I do not want to labour the point, but we are other than me, sad as I am, has read the history of the being asked to do a great deal more. I think that it is agencies involved, but this is not a new phenomenon. right to extend what we, as the representatives of this As far back as world war one, some cases simply did not House in such matters, can do, but it will take more go to court because the agencies concerned did not resources. As others have said, the secretariat of the want their networks, individual agents and practices Committee is working exceptionally long hours, often exposed in a court of law. That is not new. What is new without any additional remuneration. People cannot be is that we now have cases exported from abroad, as it expected to do that indefinitely, especially when the were, and heard in our courts for civil reasons. amount of work that they have to do is increasing. I The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden hope that the staffing issue can be put to bed before the came to the debate, said a few words and went—he does Bill gets much further. not seem to have listened to anybody else’s argument, but that is a matter for him. He made two fundamental Dr Julian Lewis: In support of what the right hon. mistakes, and I will deal with them in turn. First, he Gentleman, who is also my friend, has just said, the gave an example of what must have been a Special House should bear it in mind that it is not just a Immigration Appeals Commission case in which a special quantitative increase in resources that is required. If advocate had been used and the case had been overturned that increase is forthcoming, there will be a qualitative as a result of his being privy to certain information. The change because, as the Chairman of the ISC pointed right hon. Gentleman prayed that in aid as an argument out, the new people will act like investigators, going into against special advocates, but as far as I could tell it was the agencies and thus giving a realistic prospect of an argument in exactly the opposite direction. His point seriously close scrutiny. was flawed in that respect. 769 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 770

Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman seemed to with the first problem, the proposal is to close down the misunderstand the control principle. It means that when so-called Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction and, to deal agencies representing two nations share information, with the second problem, the Government have decided the originator of that information has control over to replace public interest immunity certificates with what happens to it when it is shared. He cited the closed material procedures in most national security Binyam Mohamed case and was right that some of the cases. I shall come on to the case for those proposals in evidence that emerged in a British civil court had previously a moment. been heard in a court of the United States’ jurisdiction. I should like to discuss briefly what is at stake in a However, that does not alter the principle. The fact that broader perspective. All these issues may appear to be that information could have been found by other means abstruse and technical, but they are about the kind of does not mean that the originator of the intelligence society that we want to live in. It is worth saying a little does not still own it. The problem was a breach of more about the trigger for the Bill—the issue of principle rather than the actual information that came extraordinary rendition. We now know that Britain out in the British court. facilitated extraordinary rendition—we do not know its I echo what several Members have already said: I and extent—and the Bill may make it more difficult to find many others have reason to know that there have been out the degree of Britain’s complicity. Senior British cases in which lives in this country have been saved public officials have facilitated the kidnapping of people because of shared information. To be blunt, if we and their transfer to places where our Government cannot continue to share information with our counterparts, knew they might be maltreated or tortured. Last week, particularly in America, but not exclusively, lives will be Britain paid £2.2 million in compensation to someone lost. That is the tough, blunt reality of the choice that who was apparently rendered—and tortured—along we have to make. I have no doubt that the balance of with his family, to the Gaddafi regime by British intelligence the argument lies with a system that many people say, in 2004. Britain also facilitated the rendition of Binyam from pure legal principles, is imperfect, but it is the best Mohamed to Morocco, and apparently he, too, was system that anyone has been able come up with to deal horrifically tortured. There are other cases, possibly with the problem. I have no difficulty in supporting many more: we do not know. part 2, and I have no difficulty in supporting Second If we do not get to the bottom of our complicity in Reading if there is a Division. such disgusting practices, we surrender the moral high Finally, we have to make a choice on closed material ground. We must be wary about extending secret court proceedings—the hon. Member for New Forest East proceedings for the same reason. Secret courts are usually (Dr Lewis) made a point about that in an intervention. held to be the tools of dictators, not of democracies, We also have to make a choice about whether it is better and their prevalence is often a test of whether a society not to defend civil cases because we know from the can be called “free”. I am deeply saddened that my arguments that PII will not resolve the issue; it just country has become involved in kidnap and torture, means that nothing will be heard. Do we not defend and I do not want it to be accused—rightly or wrongly—of those civil actions, many of which are probably founded covering up such things. That, however, is exactly what on dubious grounds, and carry on paying out millions Britain’s detractors abroad might claim—fairly or of pounds in compensation, even in cases where we unfairly—about this Bill. know that the person concerned had bad intent to this country and its citizens? I think I know what my constituents Dr Julian Lewis: I appreciate the serious point about think about that issue. I know where I stand: the answer getting to the bottom of a given rendition. Does my is no, we should not carry on spending that money for hon. Friend agree that if we are left with only PII, that purpose. pay-offs will tend to be given and we will not get to the bottom of cases? However, if a pay-off is made when 4.21 pm closed material procedure could have been used, one can deduce that something was amiss because although Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): It has been an the Government could have used a more specific route, interesting debate, full of thoughtful interventions, and they chose not to do so. I have learned quite a bit. I should like to make three initial points. First, I Mr Tyrie: My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. strongly support the work of the security services, which The judge now has discretion on CMPs—at least, I is essential for our safety. My concerns about the Bill hope that is where we will end up as a result of efforts in need to be seen in that context. Secondly, I shall refer to the other place—so we could arrive at a position where the origins of the Bill, and thirdly, I shall deal with what we have more justice and not less, which is the underlying might be at stake, even though we shall discuss it only to principle we are discussing. With respect to Norwich some extent this afternoon. Pharmacal, the case is unarguable. We would know less The Bill came about partly as a consequence of the about rendition had the Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction recent exposure of Britain’s involvement in a programme been closed down, because it was used to elicit information of extraordinary rendition. Bringing all that into the about the extent of Britain’s involvement. public domain is a matter of deep concern to the Americans, The Government have argued that CMPs could deliver particularly their security agencies. They are worried more justice because they will be able to introduce that our court proceedings could lead to the exposure of evidence that they cannot introduce at the moment for intelligence information handed to them by us. The Bill fear it will damage national security. How true is that? I is a consequence, as we have just heard, of the cost and do not know—very few Members present in the Chamber embarrassment of settling a number of civil actions do. The special advocates, security-vetted lawyers who brought by people who have alleged maltreatment. To deal are responsible for making CMPs work, are the small 771 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 772

[Mr Tyrie] further consideration and I agree with him on that. The debate should have taken place in January. That it is group of people with access to the information required being rushed through just before Christmas adds to my to know the answer. They have been unequivocal—the concerns. right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) quoted A third safeguard would be valuable. A review should them a moment ago. They say that CMPs are not be held after a period to see whether CMPs have led to “capable of delivering procedural fairness” more rather than less justice. To ensure that the review and that their introduction happens properly, it should be accompanied by a sunset clause—in perhaps seven, eight or 10 years. That proposal “could only be justified by the most compelling reasons and, in our view, none exists.” was a recommendation of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the Chairman of which is not in the Chamber at It is worth reading the report by the special advocates in the moment. I would like it included in the Bill. full as it is pretty blistering. Having said that, my concluding thought is this: we I am grateful to the Minister, my right hon. and should remain deeply sceptical of the utility of holding learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), a hearing in which one party is shut out of the case. for returning to the Chamber, as he also said that PII This is what the former Director of Public Prosecutions was deeply flawed. It is certainly not perfect but, again, has to say on that—I shall quote it in full, because it is the special advocates have expressed a view and said so forceful. He said: that “I have spent many years in criminal courts watching evidence “there is as yet no example of a civil claim involving national that at first sight seemed persuasive, truthful and accurate disintegrating security that has proved untriable using PII and the flexible use of under cross-examination conducted upon the instructions of one ancillary procedures (such as confidentiality rings and “in private” of the parties…That is the risk that we are facing, that we are hearings from which the public, but not the parties, are excluded).” introducing into civil justice—in the most sensitive and controversial cases, where deeply serious allegations are made against the Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): Government and the security services—a process that expels the That statement may be accurate in so far as it goes, but claimant and gives him a form of justice that is not better than nothing. It is worse than nothing because it may be justice that is one case—the Carnduff case—was stayed because it based on entirely misleading evidence.”.—[Official Report, House could not be properly tried, albeit that it was not of Lords, 21 November 2012; Vol. 740, c. 1989-1900.] directly in the national security arena. The Supreme I accept that, in some very restricted circumstances, Court has said that the principle exists, in which case one can conceive of more justice being achieved with a there will be cases where there is no trial at all unless we CMP than without one, but I am clear in my mind that use CMPs. Surely my hon. Friend will agree that it is that must come only after all other existing routes to try better to go down that route than to have the possibility to obtain justice, including PII, have been exhausted. of no trial for very serious cases. The Minister has not accepted clause 6(6) as amended by the other place. For that reason, above all, I cannot Mr Tyrie: I agree that a CMP could be of use in some accept the Bill. cases. My point is that the special advocates, who are well placed to judge, have looked at the proposals and said that, so far, they have seen no cases in which PII 4.33 pm could not do the job. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): It is a pleasure A cynic would argue that the special advocates have to follow the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie). I an interest in arguing for more legal work and more want to put on record my thanks to, and admiration for, CMPs, but it is significant that they have spoken in the him for forming the all-party group on extraordinary opposite direction—against the extension of CMPs. rendition and his work on exposing the awfulness of Their lordships shared the concerns of the special advocates, extraordinary rendition and how many Governments, and by majorities or more than 100, shredded that part either willingly or unwillingly, were deceived into allowing of the Bill. it to take place through their jurisdictions. The House The Lords amendments included two crucial safeguards owes him a debt of gratitude for that. that I consider to be essential. The first, which we have The hon. Gentleman is also right about the speed discussed, is that they gave the judge rather than the with which we are considering the Bill. I suspect we will Minister discretion on whether to hold a CMP. The return to major human rights issues in the near future. original Bill clearly gave the lion’s share of that discretion The Commission on a Bill of Rights has just published to the Minister, and it is not true, as the Minister said a its report, which makes excellent reading. I urge all moment ago, that he gave up that position “months parliamentarians who see their role as protecting civil ago”. If he gave it up “months ago”, why on earth did liberties in our society to read the authoritative essay in their lordships debate replacing the word “must” with the report by Baroness Helena Kennedy and Phillipe the word “may” only a fortnight ago? Sands QC. They make the point of building on the past The second crucial Lords amendment was a measure— rather than destroying the march towards an open clause 6(6)—to ensure that a judge should be able to society in which we have genuinely independent judicial exhaust PII in his search for justice before considering systems. CMPs. Unfortunately, my right hon. and learned Friend I want the House to consider the Bill—particularly in the Minister did not say that he would accept it. On the Committee when we come to reform it—in the context contrary, he used a number of phrases to suggest that of the power of the secret state: the very large power he would do no more than consider it, and that he had held by the security services in our society and how, in not yet finished his consideration. I regret that and the every western state, they have grown enormously since fact that we are discussing the Bill so quickly. It needs 2001 and the declaration of the war on terror. 773 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 774

Guantanamo Bay is a product of that thinking. It is a extremely hard time over Sami al-Saadi, in whose case most evil institution that has treated people abominably, the British security services were clearly involved, over denied them any right to justice or proper access to Guantanamo Bay, over Diego Garcia and over many judicial process, and tortured them and kept them there other issues. for many years. Our country took part in the extraordinary The second point I want to raise concerns the process rendition of people from Afghanistan to Guantanamo that has led us to this pass of having a degree of secrecy Bay. Indeed, rendition even took place through Diego in our courts. I opposed the establishment of the Special Garcia, which is part of the British Indian Ocean Immigration Appeals courts because they were anathema Territory, by the use of the US base there. to everything we believe in: a special judge alone has Political opportunism led us from being an enemy of access to the evidence; the defendant has no access to it; Colonel Gaddafi to being a friend of Colonel Gaddafi the defendant’s barrister has no access to evidence that then an arms supplier to Colonel Gaddafi. We were he can share with his client; only the prosecutor has apparently so involved in his operations that our security access to it. The whole issue is stacked against the services were prepared to hijack one of his enemies defendant, and therein lies the potential for the most from another jurisdiction and take him back to Libya, massive miscarriages of justice. Those of us who have where he was subsequently tortured by Gaddafi’s henchmen. spent much of our lives campaigning against miscarriages That information was uncovered only in the chaos and of justice will be well aware of past secrecy and the need rubble of Tripoli. So far £2.2 million has been paid in for openness. compensation, which I assume avoids the embarrassment In opening, the Minister without Portfolio made of an open court case with Sami al-Saadi. As my right much of the fact that the closed material procedure hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) would be decided by a judge. Clause 6(2) states that pointed out, the Belhaj case is still pending and cannot “a party to the proceedings (whether or not the Secretary of be discussed. There is a lesson here about our easy State) would be required to disclose material in the course of the acceptance of the power of the secret state and the proceedings to another person (whether or not another party to security services, which has led us to this appalling the proceedings)”, situation where that amount of money has to be paid where because of clear transgressions of the rights and justice “the degree of harm to the interests of national security if the of an individual who was standing up for the society he material is disclosed would be likely to outweigh the public believed in—something that we claim to want all around interest in the fair and open administration of justice, and” the world. where The Bill deals with two or three issues that I want to “a fair determination of the proceedings is not possible by any cover briefly in the short time available, the first of other means.” which is parliamentary oversight. When I first came It seems to me that the Secretary of State would have into the House in 1983, there was no parliamentary considerable power in that situation. oversight of security services at all. It was an article of faith in the Labour party at that time—my right hon. I hope that the House understands the depth of Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) and I feeling among many eminent people outside the House may agree on this particular point—that there should who have spent their lives campaigning for justice—against have been some parliamentary oversight of the security all the odds—and sometimes achieved it. Those who services. There we have it—agreement on this occasion. campaigned on Hillsborough eventually achieved justice, as did those who campaigned for the Birmingham Six Mr George Howarth: I would not want my hon. and the Guildford Four. I do not want us to create yet Friend to take this too far, though. another situation in which future miscarriages of justice can take place. Jeremy Corbyn: I am very cautious about claiming agreement and support at any stage, but I thank my John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Like right hon. Friend for that. I am sure that he would me, my hon. Friend was here when the Special Immigration acknowledge that, despite the demand for parliamentary Appeals Commission procedures were introduced, about oversight and the subsequent considerable reforms of which we expressed some concern. He has referred to the House of Commons—achieved mainly by the former cases about which concerns have been expressed. Would hon. Member for Cannock Chase Tony Wright—where he also like to comment on clause 12 with regard to we now have elected Select Committees and a much SIAC? The case of (AHK and Ors) v. Secretary of State, greater sense of openness in our business, the Intelligence which concerned a refusal of British citizenships on and Security Committee seems to have avoided the grounds of character, summed up what can go wrong in reform process altogether. It is the only Select Committee these procedures. Justice Ouseley said that where its members are appointed by the Prime Minister, “he has been told nothing other than that naturalisation has been in consultation with the Leader of the Opposition, and refused on the grounds of character and that it would be contrary where the Chair is elected by the Committee rather than to the public interest to give reasons.” by a vote by party caucuses of the whole House. Its He continued: reports are published, yes, but one wonders how much “It is not so much that the case is untriable…it is simply that is told to our colleagues on the Committee. I have no the evidence means that the Claimant cannot win.” great ambitions or expectations of being appointed to it, but in an elected process all kinds of things could Jeremy Corbyn: Having dealt with cases of constituents happen. Patronage is one of the great traditions of the who have been refused naturalisation or British nationality British Parliament. It creates the illusion that the security on the basis of evidence that is unavailable, I understand services are accountable. I would have hoped that the exactly my hon. Friend’s point and the point made by Committee would have given the security services an Judge Ouseley. 775 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 776

[Jeremy Corbyn] 12 days in the spring with the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) is not particularly attractive In its briefing on the Bill, Reprieve told us: to any of us, and partly because consensus seems to be “The Bill, even as amended, would still mean that…Members emerging among the majority of Members that, of the public could lose their cases against the state without ever unsatisfactory though the Bill might be, it is none the knowing why; or knowing what evidence was used against them”, less a necessary measure. It also states that the There is little disagreement on the first part of the “Government would be able to cover up evidence of wrongdoing”, Bill, which will establish a regime for the oversight of and that the intelligence services that has long been called for. “Ministers and officials would be able to exclude the other side That is much to be welcomed. It is the second part of from court, effectively putting themselves beyond challenge and the Bill, which deals with the closed material proceedings— above the law.” wrongly, in my view, called secret courts—that appears The Bill would allow Ministers to use secret courts in a to cause controversy. I shall focus my remarks on that wide range of cases, such as those of soldiers or their part of the Bill, although not at length as consensus is families bringing negligence claims against the Ministry emerging and many of the points that I wanted to raise of Defence over faulty equipment resulting in injury or have already been discussed. The right hon. Member for death. Many colleagues have taken up cases of soldiers Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), for example, identified who have died in the most tragic circumstances and many of the arguments that I would deploy in support where, on the face of it, there is a case against the of the Bill being given a Second Reading. Government. It could also include victims of torture or Many lawyers, myself included, regard the Bill as at rendition seeking redress in cases in which the Government best undesirable and possibly pernicious. The obvious have been involved and actions brought against the reason for that is that the principle that has served us Government over corruption in arms deals, which was a well for many years is that we do justice publicly. We point I raised with the Minister earlier. also permit full access to the evidence for those against Amnesty International has also expressed deep concern whom allegations are made—whether serious or not; in about the Bill. It is concerned that the move these cases, they usually are—and for those who make “could potentially mean that individuals and their lawyers who those allegations, in order that a fair adjudication can are seeking to establish the extent of the involvement of UK be openly and publicly be made of their complaint and officials in serious wrongdoing such as torture and enforced of what has been said against the accused. disappearances, will be prevented from seeing crucial documents on “national security” grounds. This secrecy could be maintained The Government need to persuade those who have potentially indefinitely, even if there is an overwhelming public expressed concerns that the mischief against which the interest in disclosure.” Bill is said to be directed is so serious that, in the limited I appeal to the House to think carefully and seriously number of cases to which closed material proceedings about what we are discussing and voting on here today. would apply, we need to take a fundamentally different A couple of months ago, I was in the High Court to approach from the one that has traditionally applied to hear the case being brought by the Mau Mau people the administration of public justice. The Government from Kenya relating to the abominable way in which have identified four problems, although they have not they had been tortured and ill-treated by the British always been clearly articulated. It is worth identifying armed forces in the 1950s. They finally won their case them, for the sake of those such as my hon. Friend the and were able to present their evidence to the court. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) who are troubled by That evidence had been hidden for 40 years. They had the Bill, in order for me to explain why I think the Bill been denied access to it, and it was only their determination should be given a Second Reading. that brought it to light. It had been held using secrecy The first is the continued necessity in the security arguments, and I suspect that if legislation such as this climate in which we the United Kingdom and, indeed, had already been in operation, they would still not have the western world find ourselves to have access to very been able to bring their case to court. good intelligence material—material gathered not only Before voting on the Bill, we must think seriously from our sources and by our own agencies, but by the about the implications of creating an even stronger agencies and sources that are available to our allies secret state and an even less accountable judicial system. overseas. The difficulty the Government face as regards We must also remember that our function as Members those agencies capable of providing us with information of Parliament is to represent people against power, so that is essential for the defence and security of this that they can get justice through an independent judicial country is that when something is secret and comes system. from a foreign intelligence agency and potentially a source of that intelligence agency that might be exposed or, if it is a live source, even threatened, the Government 4.45 pm need to be able to give an absolute assurance that that Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): material will remain closed and will remain secret. It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Without that assurance—this applies not only to the United Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), who speaks consistently States but to other intelligence agencies, too—the on this and other civil rights issues, even if he does not Government face real difficulties in ensuring that the often agree with the right hon. Member for Knowsley intelligence necessary to protect all our constituents will (Mr Howarth). I suspect that, on this occasion, he is be available in this country. also unlikely to agree with me. There is, of course, a related point—that the intelligence I have to confess that I hesitated before deciding to services here need to be able to recruit their own agents speak in this Second Reading debate, partly because I and need to be able to assure those agents from the very see a Bill Committee looming and the prospect of first that their identity and anything connected to anything 777 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 778 that might reveal their identity will remain secret. That solutions, and indeed we are. No one wishes to see this is the first issue that calls to be dealt with, and it legislation. I myself have described it as at best undesirable, supports the Government’s position on part 2. and possibly pernicious. However, we are where we are. The second problem, as I see it, is that undoubtedly We face the threats that we face, and we have to deal in the past the Government—perhaps not only this with them. Government but the preceding one—have been obliged My fourth reason for thinking that the Bill deserves a to settle cases where they had legitimate defences to the Second Reading is that, at present, justice is not done at accusations that were made against them, but in respect all in many cases of this kind. As I said earlier, the of which they felt, for the reasons I have already given, Government, because they cannot disclose information, that those defences could not properly be advanced, are obliged to settle some cases when a perfectly good usually for the simple reason that it would expose defence is available to the security services. There are, intelligence sources and, potentially, the way in which potentially, other cases—and at least one, which I mentioned intelligence is gathered. earlier, may have already arisen—in which a claimant Those settlements are wrong for two reasons. First, has a legitimate cause of action which may or may not there is never any adjudication whatever of the underlying be capable of being sustained at trial, but owing to the merits of the case, and from the perspective of justice as success of a public interest immunity application, a whole—and, I might add, from the perspective of information that would otherwise have enabled the claimants as well as that of the Government—that is issues between the parties to be properly resolved is not totally unsatisfactory. Secondly, because the Government available. have been obliged to settle these cases—a point touched In a third group of cases, such as the Carnduff case, on by the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles—large there is the possibility of a stay if the public interest sums of taxpayers’ money have had to be paid out. In immunity application fails, and those are the cases that many cases, they might have been lost by the Government trouble me particularly. Claimants are essentially being and perhaps the damages were justified, but we do not told, “You may have a perfectly good cause of action, know where the money has gone in other cases and we but the public interest of protecting national security do not know, for example, that it has not gone to fund outweighs the public interest of doing justice in your activities that are, putting them at their very lowest, case.” That seems to me much more undesirable than detrimental to the interests of this country. That is the saying to a claimant, “You may press ahead, but part of second reason why the Bill, and particularly part 2, is the proceedings will take place in a forum that is no deserving of a Second Reading. longer open to the public.” There is a related third point—the reputational risk The Bill may indeed be a second-best or an undesirable to this country. These cases are settled, albeit with no solution, and part 2, at least, may even constitute a admission of liability, in circumstances where, as was pernicious piece of legislation. However, for the four said earlier, much of the world will say that there is no reasons that I have given, I approve of the principle smoke without fire. People might say that the British behind it. I believe that that principle has been generally Government would not settle these cases unless there accepted throughout this House, and was finally accepted was some truth in the allegations, which does this by their lordships, subject to the amendments that they country enormous damage overseas. It also runs the made. It is a principle from which I do not believe risk—I say this particularly to my hon. Friend the Member parliamentarians can legitimately distance themselves. for Chichester—of encouraging those who would see It is the principle that we need to be here to protect our this country damaged by radicalising young Muslim men constituents, and it is the principle that no matter how overseas who will believe that this country has no respect unsatisfactory the Bill is, it is the right Bill, and, regrettably, for the rights it is trying to push on the Islamic world. a necessary measure. Mr Tyrie: Does my hon. and learned Friend not also accept that the extension of what would be portrayed as 4.57 pm secret courts—CMPs—could also damage Britain’s Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Other Members have reputation abroad? observed that there seems to be consensus on part 1 of the Bill, but I may be more of a doubting Thomas in Stephen Phillips: I accept my hon. Friend’s point, but that respect. I am not sure that part 1 will do all that it for my own part I do not think the risk is nearly as promises to do for the Intelligence and Security Committee, great, and I would go further than that. If we carry on the House or the Bill itself. calling CMPs “secret courts”, there might be that risk, but we are not talking about secret courts. We are I do not, of course, speak with experience of membership talking about courts in which defendants and claimants of the ISC, although I was offered membership a number are properly represented, where there is access to the of years ago, in bizarre circumstances. In fact, at one information necessary to ensure as fair a resolution of point my party was offered two seats on it, which seems the issues between the parties as possible and, indeed, bizarre even now. At that time we were negotiating the where the proceedings are overseen by a judge. I shall St Andrews agreement, and Tony Blair got it into his come back to this in a moment, but the alternative in head that I might be prepared to accept annex E—which many of these cases is, as I said in an intervention on my re-routed some of the Patten provisions relating to hon. Friend, that there is no justice at all—either because intelligence and national security—if I was offered a they are struck out or because the Government have to place on the ISC. settle them. That is totally unsatisfactory—much more Hours later, I was advised that two places were on so than the Government’s proposals in the Bill. I think offer. I had said that it would be very difficult for a it was the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation member of my party to sit on the Committee, supposedly who said that we were in the world of second-best to offer scrutiny and challenge, while being unable to 779 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 780

[Mark Durkan] Other hon. Members have quoted Lord Kerr’s concluding judgment. An additional point he made was: tell anyone that he or she had done so or to say anything “This would not be a development of the common law” about it. The consolation was that we would have two as the Government members there, each of whom would vouch for the other in our secrecy. It was a bit like King Louie in “The “would have it. It would be, at a stroke, the deliberate forfeiture of a fundamental right which…has been established for more than Jungle Book”: “Have a banana; have two bananas.” three centuries.” Members have said that the Bill is a significant advance In those circumstances, I do not think that we should on existing law, but I am not sure whether it is adequate lightly pass the Bill on the basis that the other place has or truly accountable. Part 2, obviously, has raised the made a few amendments that make it good enough. more substantial issues and differences. I am at a bit of a loss, because I hear differing and confusing arguments. John McDonnell: The point has been made throughout I hear those who commend part 2 saying that closed the debate—I have not heard it all as I have been in a material procedures are not a particularly big departure Westminster Hall debate—that in a piece of legislation because they are already used in cases of various types, that is actually flawed, we must ask whether the balance and that the Bill merely codifies them in a particular of interest lies in protecting the state or the individual. area. I also hear the argument that PII is no good, that Clearly, the Bill protects the state rather than the individual. it cannot be used, that it stops cases being defended and that by its very nature it means that evidence cannot be brought. The reality is that PII can be dealt with on an Mark Durkan: That is exactly the nature of the Bill. evidence-by-evidence basis, and does not have to be It is a measure to ensure that the state will be protected done entirely wholesale. We have seen where it has worked in various litigations and that it will have an absolutely in the past when the courts have granted immunity in unequal power to use a procedure that will frustrate a relation to certain material, evidence and witnesses. case against it using a special secret procedure. They have protected their anonymity and secrecy and We are told—I have listened to other hon. Members have protected material from being disclosed altogether. say it—that the amendment to clause 6 in the other In other cases, they have protected material by due and place that changed “must” to “may” now means that measured redaction. The idea that PII is basically just a the proceedings are entirely a matter of judicial discretion one-size-fits-all option is nonsense, as it can be used in a and that we should therefore trust the courts. Of course, measured way. however, that is only in relation to clause 6. Once the I feel almost as though I am involved in some sort of national security case has been engaged by a judge closed material proceedings, because everyone else seems under clause 6, clause 7 means that what happens is to be aware of why certain cases were settled as quickly entirely in the hands of the state. That joker is played by as they were. I do not know why the Al-Rawi case was the state and cannot be predicted. PII means that a settled in the way that it was. It had not even gone to the judge can be selective and can scrutinise what evidence Supreme Court once appeal was allowed, yet settlement might compromise national security and what should took place. Was it so compelling that the state had no or should not be admitted in balancing the interests of other choice? Was there no way of having more measured hearing the case and protecting national security, but terms? I do not know, but other people seem to. They that will no longer be the case. We are being sold a false seem to have been briefed and perhaps they are privy to argument about just how big a difference there is because such things, but I certainly am not and as a legislator I of the change from “must” to “may”. am not prepared to pass serious, significant legislation As well as listening to learned judges who have considered on spec based on somebody else’s hunch that the state the matter, we should look to those who also have would not have settled if it did not really have to. experience of closed material proceedings and such I come from a part of the world where the state has legislation—the special advocates. The Minister without done many things and failed to do many things. People Portfolio told us, in effect, that special advocates attributed all sorts of reasons and pure motives to it, underestimate their own power—they do rather well saying, “They wouldn’t have done that if they didn’t under such provisions and have quite a good score rate. have to.” We know from last week’s revelations that that Let us listen to what the special advocates and other logic absolutely stinks. One of the worst things was that observers say. The late Lord Chief Justice, Lord Bingham, all down the years, when such things were happening, described the role of a special advocate as akin to they were not sufficiently challenged by enough people “taking blind shots at a hidden target”. in this Chamber and in other places. Special advocates themselves have described it as “shadow When we receive such legislation, we must question it boxing” in circumstances where and ask what the compelling reason for it is. We must “you are speaking into a black hole because you have no idea if also look to those who know something about such your strategy and points are on the money or wide of the mark”. things. Lord Justice Kerr has been widely quoted today on the subject of closed material proceedings, but he So special advocates are frustrated by their own professional was not the only one to make significant statements in standards. They must be particularly frustrated in relation the Al-Rawi judgment. Lord Dyson, giving the lead to the interests and rights of their clients. judgment, said that the introduction of closed proceedings Remember, that is what we are talking about—people in ordinary civil claims would involve who have reason, good or ill, for taking a case against “an inroad into a fundamental common law right.” the state. If, in doing so, they are speaking of actions He went on to say: that have fundamentally affected their human rights, “The PII process is not perfect, but it works well enough. In that have done damage or harm to them which in other some cases, it is cumbersome and costly to operate, but a closed circumstances and at the hands of someone else would material procedure would be no less so.” be deemed to be illegal, that is serious. We should not 781 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 782 treat the issue as a matter of administrative convenience. The effect of the proposals could be that a claimant The argument should not be that it takes Ministers too who brings a case is suddenly and quite literally ushered long to decide whether they want to look for public out of court and told to take their lawyers with them. interest immunity certificates in respect of all the different They will then have to sit and wait until they are invited pieces of information, that it could take them a whole to go back in, at which point they might be told, “Sorry, day to do so, and that we have to come up with but you’ve lost.” The reason is that these proposals are something quicker, so we go for closed material proceedings. not the same as PII, although there has been much talk That is not the way in which we should legislate for of PII, and they are not simply a replacement for it. justice to be done. The way litigation works means that parties to it Others have quoted the Government’s independent must consider whether they possess material that might reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson. On assist the other side. If they have such material but want one occasion he attended a session with representatives to keep that secret, they can make a PII application. If of the Government and of all three intelligence services they win they are allowed to keep that secret, and if they and counsel. He was talked through seven significant lose they have two options: they can hand the material cases and left with a bundle of top-secret material in over or they can settle the case. That is what PII is all each case, including evidence and internal and external about, but that is not what this proposal is about. This advice, which he had taken the opportunity to read. is about being able to use material aggressively against a Three of those seven cases were civil damages cases. His case. It is about the state having material that it can use conclusion was that to defeat a claim and wanting to use it in secret. “there is a small but indeterminate category of national security-related At the moment, if the state wants to use that material claims...forcivildamages, in respect of which it is preferable it must do so in open court, but it is about the decision that the option of a CMP...should exist”— on how to fight the case; it is not about public interest only preferable that the option of a CMP should exist, immunity. That is why the Bill clearly goes through the but the Bill goes down an almost compulsive route in PII phase before getting to the point where closed relation to that and legislates too far. hearings are contemplated. For example, if I know something that might assist you when you sue me, There is the irony that the very procedure that the Mr Deputy Speaker, I must either tell you or claim PII, independent reviewer engaged in was a closed material but this proposal is about me wanting to use something procedure. He looked at files that were presented by against you to defeat your claim and you will never Government. He listened to the representatives of the know what it is. You will not have the chance to question intelligence agencies and their legal advisers, and he it, to say that it is not accurate or to say that it has been formed an assessment with no other view being given fabricated. You will know nothing about it. You will from special advocates or anybody else, yet it is his simply be told, “I’m sorry, but you’ve lost your case.” advice and his conclusions that we are told we should listen to. When such a proposal is introduced on the back of litigation aimed at the state, making allegations of the worst sort of behaviour on the part of the state—I have 5.8 pm referred already to kidnap, torture and killing—people Simon Reevell (Dewsbury) (Con): One of the least are bound to be suspicious. Either it is just a coincidence, attractive things I have seen in 20-odd years practising or someone somewhere wants to take on these claimants at the Bar is lawyers trying to persuade a judge that he using information that no one will ever be able properly should deal with evidence in private because the evidence to test. had the potential to embarrass the then Government. It The House sat very quietly last week to listen to the did have that potential. Employees of the Ministry of Prime Minister deal with the report prepared in respect Defence on oath were giving evidence that six months of Mr Finucane. He ended his observations by saying before the invasion of Iraq, they had been told not just this: that it was going to happen, but the day on which it “One thing this Government can do to help is to face up would take place, and that the British Army had been honestly when things have gone wrong in the past. If we as a told that it could not commence its training because it country want to uphold democracy and the rule of law, we must would give away the fact that a decision had been made. be prepared to be judged by the highest standards.”—[Official A properly robust judge sent them away and told them Report, 12 December 2012; Vol. 555, c. 299.] in no uncertain terms that the functions of the court do These proposals are not a very good start. not include preserving the modesty of the Government. 5.13 pm So I come to the proposals, proposals that for years and years no one in the world of civil litigation ever Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It is a dreamt or thought were necessary. Suddenly we encounter pleasure to follow my hon. Friend, and professional a different sort of civil litigation in which the body most colleague, the Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell). I concerned is the state. Allegations are made that the accept with alacrity what he says on the differing functions state has been complicit in kidnap and torture—we call of PII and closed material proceedings, but information it rendition, but rendition simply means kidnap and will be dealt with in closed material proceedings that torture—and that drone strikes have killed innocent could equally support the claimant’s case, just as there families, and suddenly the civil rules that have been will be information that might undermine it. That is good enough for as long as anyone can remember are why it is important to support the amendment made in no longer good enough and there needs to be secrecy. It the other place to allow not just the defendant, such as is, at best, an unfortunate coincidence that the need for the Government, but other parties, including the claimant, secrecy coincides with litigation in which the state finds to make an application for the use of closed material itself at the very heart. proceedings. 783 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 784

[Mr Robert Buckland] whether the British state infringed principles of justice and international convention when it came to unlawful Like my hon. Friend, I have spent many years in the rendition. criminal courts. I have, I suppose, been dealing with human rights; that was my stock in trade as a barrister Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I reassure my hon. Friend that prior to my election to this place. We did not really use once the current police inquiries are complete, the intention the words “human rights”; every day we did a job of of the Intelligence and Security Committee is to continue dealing with the liberty of the individual and the power our investigation, which we had already started, of the of the state when it came to imprisoning and dealing allegations about United Kingdom complicity in Libyan with individuals who may have committed criminal rendition and to publish our conclusions to the extent offences. It was my life, my bread and butter, and my that we can. stock in trade. It is difficult for me to accept any departure from the Mr Buckland: I am grateful to my right hon. and principles of open justice. I never liked being confronted learned Friend, and commend him and his Committee with public interest immunity applications, whether I for their work in that area. It is something that I would made them on behalf of the Crown or in relation to like to know more about, as would many people in this third party disclosure, or whether I found out about House and outside. Sadly, the Gibson inquiry had to be them later because I was not party to the application. terminated, or postponed, because of ongoing criminal These principles do not sit well with me. However, I proceedings. I very much believe that wrongdoing should learned a long time ago that politics has to start from be exposed, but, as has been pointed out, in the case of the world as we find it, not necessarily the world as we this civil proceeding we do not, and will not, know the would like it to be. No matter how idealistic I may be precise merits or otherwise of the claim that was made and how important certain principles are to me and against the British Government. many other Members, the realities of international politics Much has been made of the views of Mr David and security will often conflict with some of the principles Anderson QC, the Government’s independent reviewer that I hold so dear. on terrorism. I will spare his blushes. It is absolutely The scenario that the Bill seeks to deal with represents right to say that he, like me, is very much a reluctant one such conflict. In an ever-changing world, one certainty convert to the limited use of closed material proceedings endures. We have more and more information sharing in certain cases where national security is very much at and the world is ever more interconnected, so greater the heart of the claim. He makes the very important and greater challenges to our national security are point that in referrals made by Her Majesty’s Government, posed every day. We also live in an age when decisions we must put our trust in our judiciary to come to fair of the state itself are rightly called into question. As a and balanced decisions on the material before them and result of those proper questions being asked, we are to apply fairness not only to the Government but to seeing a rise in civil litigation mounted against the state claimants, because these questions apply equally to by individuals who claim grievance. both parties in any such case. All those factors mean that a challenge has arisen. Their lordships’ amendment to clause 6 opens up the Given the information provided by the Government limited discretion in the clause as originally drafted. I and my understanding of the situation, the problem is welcome that. It is wrong to say that there was no not going away any time soon—in fact, it is going to get discretion before, but it was limited. They have expanded worse. The Government cannot hide behind inactivity that discretion by the use of the word “may”. It is a when looking at that challenge; only last week, we saw a much wider discretion than many of us in criminal further settlement of a civil claim, in this case by the practice have got used to. For example, in the sort of Libyan dissident Mr al-Saadi. That is but the latest discretion that sentencing judges have in dealing with manifestation of an issue that is causing real concern mandatory minimum terms of imprisonment, the word not only to the Government and security services but to used is very bald. “May” cannot put it any more simply. those who risk their lives for this country and to the The amendment is very significant, and the fact that the public at large who are rightly worried that millions of Government have rightly accepted it eases many of pounds of their money—our money—is paid over for the concerns that I and others had about the extent of reasons to which they and we will never be privy in any the power of Ministers, in effect, to limit the court’s real sense. ability to disagree with a reference from Ministers. That is the trigger, but it does not end there. The hon. Simon Reevell: Does my hon. Friend accept that a Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said that a blanket good way to avoid having to make payouts to Libyan then comes down on the use of closed material proceedings. dissidents would be not to be involved in kidnapping I have great respect for him, but I do not think he is them and shipping them and their families back to right. It is not a question of a blanket coming down, Libya to be tortured? because the judge has a duty to look at each individual piece of evidence to determine whether it should be the Mr Buckland: We do not know that, and that is the subject of open proceedings or closed material proceedings. problem with the current system. I would accept my The judge will retain that important check and balance hon. Friend’s argument if we had a system in which in looking at the evidence. such issues could be properly tried, or at least tried in We need to put firmly to bed the notion that closed some second-best scenario; I accept that closed material material proceedings are a silver bullet that will allow proceedings are very much a second best to the principles the Government always to be able to win—to successfully of open justice in which my hon. Friend and I believe. defend—these cases, because they most certainly are However, we will never know—we will never be privy to not. The recent decision by SIAC which had the effect 785 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 786 of allowing the release of Abu Qatada is a notable about the danger to national security—a danger that, example of that. CMPs were used in that case. The once examined, clearly did not exist. There was, as has result was perhaps not popular in many quarters, but it been said, a perception of a danger to national security— is an example of the court being able to cope with the there is one that needs to be dealt with in relation to second-best solution and to reach an outcome that was, Norwich Pharmacal—but an actual danger did not on a neutral interpretation, a fair one. CMPs can be a exist. way for claimants to ensure that all the issues they want Since then, it is welcome that the Minister without to see raised are properly considered by the court as Portfolio has issued many reassurances about the intended part of the case. narrowness of the Green Paper’s application. It is Public interest immunity has been prayed in aid as a unfortunate that, whether as a result of lax drafting or substitute for the process, but it is not; its function is conflicting views within the Department, the circumstances different. PII relates to the extent and quality of disclosure, allowed confusion to develop about what the Government’s which occurs at a different stage from the fact-finding intentions were for closed material procedures. process itself. Material that is successfully subject to a It is clear that there is a theoretical need for change. PII certificate remains undisclosed to the party seeking One can imagine a situation—many such situations it. There is no gisting or anything else. Redaction of have been mentioned today—in which a fair trial of a documents may well happen, but that still means that civil claim cannot proceed because of the amount of the material sought by the party who wishes to see it material that cannot be disclosed on the grounds of remains undisclosed. PII has a practical effect, whether public interest immunity.It has, however, been exceptionally it is on the continuation of a prosecution in a criminal difficult, even with access to many interested and context or, as in this context, the continuation of a experienced witnesses, to establish the likelihood of defence in a civil case. The choice for those at the such a theoretical possibility actually materialising. The receiving end is either to disclose the material or to stop Bill is undoubtedly an extremely complex and difficult the case. That means, as we have already discussed, that balancing act, but the judgment that must be made cases in which genuine allegations of wrongdoing are requires us to understand whether a problem exists and, made will never properly be dealt with by the court. It is if so, its scale, and whether this response is proportionate the justice gap that has been spoken about not just in to the problem. this place but by eminent Members of the other place, most notably Lord Woolf, Lord Mackay and Lady The Joint Committee was clear in its view that the Manningham-Buller, who all support the use of closed proposed balance was not correct and, therefore, suggested material proceedings in restricted circumstances. amendments, which were tabled in the other place. I pay tribute to the excellent staff of the JCHR, who helped As other Members have said, there is nothing us to marshal the evidence and formulate the amendments groundbreaking about the use of closed material to improve the Bill. In spite of those significant changes, proceedings in English law. They have been used for the Bill’s proposals, particularly those in part 2 relating some years, in both SIAC and the regime of terrorism to closed material procedures, still constitute a radical prevention and investigation measures, and in a way, as departure from the UK’s constitutional tradition, which I have said, that cannot be regarded as resulting in is one of open justice and fairness. manifest unfairness or injustice. I would welcome clear and continued assurances The JCHR report questioned whether the Government from Ministers that, if future consideration is ever given had to further extending the use of closed material procedures “persuasively demonstrated, by reference to sufficiently compelling to other areas of law, it is this House that will deal with evidence, the necessity for such a serious departure” the issue and that there will be strong grounds to justify from those fundamental principles. Our conclusion was any further extension before we allow it to happen. that the Government had We live in an imperfect world. It is a troubled world “failed to discharge that burden of justification”. where sometimes grim reality invades noble principle. The Joint Committee suggested amendments to make This Bill is an exemplar of that, which is why I support the Bill compatible with the bedrocks of justice, openness its Second Reading. and fairness, while recognising the national security concerns put forward by the Government. Our aim was 5.26 pm to achieve a fair—or at least a fairer—balance. The Bill considered by the JCHR did not achieve the right balance. Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): I am very The Bill before us today is much closer to sitting within pleased, as a former member of the Joint Committee on the parameters of natural justice and fairness protected Human Rights, to have the opportunity to speak in this by the common law, because of the excellent work in the debate. Importantly, I was a member when its report on other place. The amendments recommended by the the Bill was written and published. We spent a large JCHR and adopted to date are, as my noble Friend amount of time examining the Bill, which was a difficult Lord Lester of Herne Hill said, thing to do as a non-lawyer, but it has been a worthwhile, “designed to keep faith with the fundamental principles of justice though arduous, journey from the first time I asked and fairness in our common law system, within the rule of law, what Norwich Pharmacal actually meant. and national security protected by the independent judiciary.”— When the original justice and security Green Paper [Official Report, House of Lords, 21 November 2012; Vol. 740, was introduced in October 2011, there was understandable c. 1822.] and justifiable concern about the proposals. In their I do not intend to go through the entire list of original form, it was clear that they were very broad in amendments suggested by the JCHR, but I will mention scope, and some in the Government talked up the need the most substantive amendments that have led to successful for the powers through rather apocalyptic speeches changes. First, a judge will decide whether a closed 787 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 788

[Mike Crockart] the judgments of Justice Learned Hand myself when I was doing my jurisprudence course at the London School material procedure should be used in any given case and of Economics. I knew they would come in handy one the decision will not be taken in form or substance by day. the Secretary of State. Secondly, a CMP will be available I was much impressed with the speech of my hon. only as a procedure of last resort if fairness cannot be and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North achieved by other means. That allows judicial discretion Hykeham (Stephen Phillips), and I agreed with him first to consider alternative methods, such as the public entirely. He put it more elegantly than I could—that is interest immunity system and requiring the court to why he is a Queen’s counsel and I am not. I also rather consider whether a claim for PII could have been made. agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for South Thirdly, the court will be required to balance the interests Swindon (Mr Buckland). of national security against the interests of fairness and I want to concentrate on part 2 of the Bill, because it open justice in deciding whether to agree to the use of a relates to the area in which I have been interested as a CMP at the outset. Finally, it will be open to either party lawyer. It seems to me that we should not allow the best to apply for a CMP and the court will also have the to become the enemy of the good. The best, of course, jurisdiction to consider the request on its own motion. is open hearings in court with the normal, full process. If the Bill had come to this House without some of However, in a limited number of cases there are particular those measures, the case for throwing out part 2 would circumstances, which my hon. Friend the Member for be significantly stronger. CMPs are not perfect justice, South Swindon rehearsed well, in which it is necessary but they may have a place. David Anderson, the independent to have a different procedure. reviewer of terrorism legislation who has been quoted extensively today, has said that there is With respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell), who is not in his place at “a small but indeterminate category of national security-related the moment, I do not accept the proposition that the claims, both for judicial review of executive decisions and for civil damages, in respect of which it is preferable that the option of a Bill will be used to prevent people from bringing claims. CMP—for all its inadequacies—should exist.” Nothing that is currently available in open court will A number of the JCHR’s recommendations have not become secret as a consequence of it. been adopted at present. The first is the introduction of a sunset clause. The second is the compulsory reporting John McDonnell: Let me give the hon. Gentleman an on and review of the use of CMPs by the independent example of how the argument about security is used—the reviewer of terrorism legislation. The third is an undertaking Shrewsbury 24, the pickets who were imprisoned 40 years that any litigant who is excluded from the open hearing ago. When they sought the information upon which by the CMP will be given, at the very least, a summary they were arrested and prosecuted by the Government, and the gist of the closed material sufficient to enable the letter sent back from the Secretary of State for them to give instructions to their legal representative Justice told them that a “security blanket” had been and the special advocates, so far as is possible. The wrapped around that information, so the records would absence from the Bill of such a disclosure obligation not be published on the grounds of national security. Is seriously limits the opportunities for special advocates that the sort of issue that the Bill should cover? to mitigate the unfairness caused by the Bill’s departure from open and, more importantly, adversarial justice. I Robert Neill: With respect, it seems to me that at the hope that those issues will be given further consideration moment public interest immunity would be invoked in by Members of this House in Committee. I am fairly such a case, possibly by an ex parte application, without confident that that will happen. any notice to the claimant. I fail to see how that would assist people in such a situation. It is better at least to Had it not been possible to write effective safeguards have the opportunity for any relevant and admissible into part 2, I would share the concerns that are still being material to be considered, albeit through the less than raised by many organisations such as the Bar Council, perfect closed material process. the Law Society of England and Wales, Liberty and Justice. Their concerns demonstrate that there is still significant In my 25 years at the Bar, I predominantly practised review work to be done by a Committee of this House. in the criminal jurisdiction, and it is right that the In as reasonable a way as I can, I caution the Government Government are not seeking to apply the closed material against any attempt to remove the improving amendments procedure to that jurisdiction. When I started, public that have been made in the other place. interest immunity criminal cases were a little-developed area, and the jurisprudence grew as time went on to I support the Bill’s passage into Committee, but with reflect, as other Members have said, the changing demands the words of Judge Learned Hand in mind: placed upon the courts system and the nature of how “Justice is the tolerable accommodation of the conflicting intelligence operations were conducted. The jurisprudence interests of society, and I don’t believe there is any royal road to attain such accommodation concretely.” moved flexibly to reflect that, and the same is occurring in the Bill. The administration of justice is undoubtedly a balance, but it is the most important balancing act that the state I know two things from my experience of the use of carries out. We should proceed carefully in changing PII in criminal cases. First, the judges took extremely that balance. seriously their responsibilities in relation to PII applications, including their duty to review the material and their initial rulings. I have no reason whatever to doubt that 5.34 pm the same judicial meticulousness will be applied to the Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): It is a closed material procedure in civil cases. It is right that pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Edinburgh West there should be safeguards, which I think are broadly (Mike Crockart). I seem to remember studying some of accepted and will be taken forward. I, too, am pleased 789 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 790 that the discretion allowed for in clause 6 is widened by not only is an undertaking breached, but there is a risk the use of the word “may”. I agree with my hon. Friend that other people will be less willing to come forward the Member for South Swindon that that is adequate, and provide information that might be helpful. The and I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to resist the same applies even more strongly to assurances given in temptation to refine the definition further by including relation to our national security. I do not think that we certain factors in the Bill. The risk of that would be that should worry about that, subject to the proper safeguards. jurisprudence would grow up around the definition of In conclusion, it is important to stress again that we those factors, and case law would eventually erode the are not discussing secret courts. Yes, it is a less than jurisdiction and make it worse than simply using the satisfactory process, but ultimately it is one part of the word “may”. process: the rest is an open process, and the hearing of the The second point that strikes me from my experience claim, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon at the Bar is that, as has been observed, it is not always set out, remains in the public domain. A number of the individual who is the loser as the result of a PII hon. Members have cited Lord Kerr and the al-Rawi application. I believe the same will apply to the closed case, but to balance Lord Kerr’s judgment it is worth material procedure. I remember, in a criminal case, quoting the judgment of Lord Clarke, who took a invoking not PII but the court’s inherent jurisdiction to different view: sit in camera. Part of the mitigation that I needed to “Aclosed procedure might also be necessary in a case in which…the advance on my client’s behalf related to his activities in non-state party…wishes to rely upon the material which would relation to reputable freedom movements in the Soviet otherwise be subject to PII in order to defend itself in some way bloc. I could not advance that mitigation in open court, against the state. In such a case either party might seek an order because the consul of the Communist-controlled country for such a procedure based on necessity, namely that such a procedure would be necessary in order to permit a fair trial.” was represented in court and was sitting in the gallery, and there would have been serious consequences for my That is a balanced statement on what is proposed in the client and his family. Mr Justice Steyn—later Lord Bill. I agree with Lord Clarke, and it seems to me that Steyn; a very eminent judge—acceded to the application, Mr Justice Ouseley, in the AHK case, made a similar and important material in my client’s favour was put proposition. before the court. Again, the point is that the material When he responds to the debate, I hope the Minister could be ventilated, and it is better in a civil case that will take on board some of the legitimate concerns that that is done through the closed material procedure than have been raised. I shall support the Bill on Second that it would be were it not ventilated at all. That is why Reading and we can examine the detail in Committee. we should not allow the best—an open procedure—to We should not, however, allow ourselves to retreat from become the enemy of the good, or CMP, which is an a necessary—albeit not always desirable—step in this improvement in civil cases on existing PII arrangements. class of case, and allow the best to become the enemy of There is general consensus about the importance of the good. I therefore hope that the Bill will commend removing the Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction from such itself to the House. cases. We have to be realistic and concede that although many meritorious claims are brought against Government 5.44 pm and Government agencies, many unmeritorious claims are brought in the courts. There is, as the right hon. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): It is a Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) suggested, pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bromley and a growing tendency for jurisdiction shopping in relation Chislehurst (Robert Neill). to the Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction, which has moved This debate has been about balance, and when the away from its original purpose in intellectual property Minister responds I hope he will acknowledge the sense cases to cases of this kind. It is not right that we should across the House that the Government are not yet in allow that to be abused in these cases. quite the right place regarding the balance between Similarly, it is not right that the British taxpayer national security and the hard-won liberties of the should pay millions of pounds when it is not possible to individual. I hope that the Government will be open in resist a claim in cases where, if the material were considered Committee to amendments that make that balance by the judge under the closed material procedure, it more durable. might be discredited. In the criminal jurisdiction, the Justice systems across the United Kingdom have proven choice facing the prosecutor is either to disclose material extremely adaptable to reforms such as the Human if ordered to do so or not to continue with the case. We Rights Act 1998, which gave effect to the European have a tradition in this country of respecting assurances convention on human rights in UK law. Such reforms that have to be given in the interests of furthering provided what in some circumstances are universally justice. We have discussed that in relation to the assurances applicable rights to people on UK territory, as well as that we give the security services of our allies abroad. recognising the growing importance of judicial review. We already do so in a different way in criminal cases Such proceedings can sometimes be inconvenient to in relation to informers, and have done so on more than Ministers and troublesome for the judiciary, but we one occasion. It is distasteful but necessary that we should remember that the values of justice and fairness sometimes employ informers so that wrongdoers can be in our judicial system guarantee civil liberties and the brought to book, and it is important that they are given rule of law. assurances by the police that their anonymity will be The Bill deals with the conundrum of trying to strike protected. In certain circumstances, rather than disclose a balance between the sometimes competing concerns someone’s identity, I and other prosecuting barristers and interests of the state and the individual, and it would offer no evidence so as not to put the informer’s proposes the creation of closed material procedures in identity at risk. Otherwise not only are they at risk, and civil proceedings. As a national security measure that is 791 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 792

[Mr William Bain] Mr Bain: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. I will give a similar example later in my remarks that reserved to Parliament under the devolution settlement, bears out the point that the Government must be careful the Bill would apply to civil courts in Scotland. I know on how their proposals tie with the common law right that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire to natural justice. (Pete Wishart) read out some comments, and no doubt there will be discussions between this Government and Mr George Howarth: My hon. Friend referred to clause 7 the Scottish Government, but the Bill is clear that the and my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington measures would apply to civil courts in Scotland. (John McDonnell) referred to a special advocate. To I welcome the amendments made in the other place some extent, are those points not covered by clause 7(1)(d) that strengthen protection of the individual and, in the and (e), which relate to the need to provide a summary? words of the noble Lord Pannick, It is not quite the same as “gisting”, but a summary would give the sort of information my hon. Friend the “help to ensure that, if we are to have CMPs, there are proper limits, proper controls, a proper balance and judicial discretion, Member for Hayes and Harlington implies does not and that CMPs are a last resort,”.—[Official Report, House of exist. Lords, 21 November 2012; Vol. 740, c. 1816.] The Bill as originally presented in the other place Mr Bain: I respect my right hon. Friend’s point, but would have permitted one party—the Government—to the Law Society and many constitutional lawyers are decide whether to use CMPs. Critically, if CMPs are to not completely taken that the Bill provides sufficient be introduced, it must be for the courts and not the protection in terms of common law judgments. As the Government to determine whether they should be used debate continues in Committee, I hope we can impress in any given case, and only as a last resort. Questions of upon the Government the advantages of giving greater fairness and relevancy of evidence are for the courts, safeguards in clause 7 to individuals and their legal not the Government, to determine, because one of the advisers. parties to a CMP should not be able to determine such A number of decisions have created the presumption matters on its own. It is therefore welcome that the that it is not enough for an individual to be informed of Minister without Portfolio indicated that the Government a hearing affecting his or her rights or freedoms. There are minded to accept the relevant amendment. is also an obligation to inform them of the gist of the Having opposed the amendments with such vigour in case—that comes from common law. That principle is the other place, I hope that the Government will now vital, not least in a society governed in accordance with accept in their entirety all amendments accepted by the rule of law. I hope the Government therefore take their lordships. Although clause 6 as presented to this the advice they have received from the Law Society and House appears to contain greater balance than the others, and that they are prepared to support an amendment measure originally presented to the other place, I am in Committee if the Bill receives a Second Reading. concerned that such balance does not extend sufficiently In the Minister’s opening speech, he cited Lord Phillips to clause 7. In particular, the Bill does not create a of Worth Matravers in support of the principle of statutory obligation on the courts to provide the gist of CMPs in exceptional cases, but perhaps he might reflect the argument to the excluded party, which is vital to on the fact that Lord Phillips has pointed out that, if a them being able to advise adequately their special advocate. closed material procedure is brought into law, it would That protection has been sought by the Law Society “undoubtedly be challenged” in both the Supreme Court and is crucial to ensure a better balance between the and the European Court of Human Rights. The rights of the individual and the interests of the state. Government must therefore establish that any incursion Natural justice is a key principle of civil law across into the fair trial rights that are protected by article 6(1) the United Kingdom, and we have heard comments from of the convention is the minimum necessary and subject Judge Learned Hand. Perhaps I may remind the House to suitable available safeguards and protections. The of the dictum of Lord Chief Justice Hewart from the Bill allows insufficient protection of the continued balancing 1924 case of R v. Sussex Justices, ex parte McCarthy: of interest after a CMP has been granted—that was pointed out by the Joint Committee on Human Rights “Justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and and in the Bingham Centre response to the Green undoubtedly be seen to be done.” Paper. In allowing insufficient protection, the Bill unsettles One key rule respected by that principle is the right to a an element of Scots law that has existed since 1956. I fair hearing, which is underpinned in law by article 6(1) hope that the Minister resolves that problem in Committee. of the European convention on human rights. As Tom Hickman, of University college London wrote for the UK Constitutional Law Group’s website John McDonnell: May I point my hon. Friend to on 27 November, in the absence of information given by Nicholas Blake QC—he is a special “such a balance, CMP operates like a black box from which no advocate—on what happens after a judgment is given in information of any use or interest emerges. All information of a Special Immigration Appeals Commission case? He even marginal sensitivity is immune from disclosure even if this is says: overwhelmingly in the interests of justice for it to be disclosed.” “If the special advocate thinks there is an error in law in the The point was made more clearly in the decision in an closed judgment, he gets permission to say, to pass a message out analogous control order case—the case of CC and to the other team to say ‘I think you should be appealing, I can’t CF—earlier this year. British authorities admitted that tell you why’…So there is a sort of open appeal. ‘We think there is they were involved in the arrest, detention and deportation something wrong but we don’t know what it is.’ And then the of the defendants, but the defendants were given no reasons court goes into closed session” why they lost in the case, nor were they provided with to consider the matter. That is farce, not justice. any detail on the Government’s arguments, because the 793 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 794 judge said that that part of the judgment must remain We cannot, therefore, continue with the situation we closed—the other party was excluded from it. The have at the moment, but I would like to add two other Government, by accepting reasonable amendments, could liberties that are offended by things as they stand. The surely avoid such cases in the civil courts, if the CMP is first is the liberty of the individual agents and officers, introduced, and avoid the outcome warned of by the who have not been mentioned so far. Although they are Intelligence and Security Committee. The Committee anonymous in most of these instances, in a civil action recommended restricting the use of CMPs to: UK they are accused of the most appalling crimes—rendition, intelligence material that would, if disclosed publicly, torture, or procuring murder—and yet, through the reveal the identity of UK intelligence officers or their agency of their employer, they cannot defend themselves sources, and their capability, including techniques and and say that these things did not happen. I hesitate to methodology; and to foreign intelligence material provided say that spies have feelings too, but it is clearly wrong to by another country on a strict obligation of confidentiality. allow someone, just because it is easier for Her Majesty’s Even Cabinet minutes are not excluded from disclosure Government to raise their hand and pay up, to have it in a case involving serious misconduct by a member of on their record for the rest of their life that they were the Cabinet, so why are the Government adopting such part of a conspiracy or action of that magnitude. In not a restrictive interpretation in relation to the public defending them in court, we do them a disservice that interest balance in clauses 6 and 7? I hope the Minister the Government have a duty of care to address. will answer two further questions in his response. If the A bigger liberty is at stake, however, and that is the system comes into operation, will the Government pledge liberty of the nation. It seems to me that learned and to review it, as the Joint Committee on Human Rights noble Members in another place have forgotten that the advised, and place that commitment in the Bill? Secondly, state also has a personality and seem to think that, will the Minister accept the amendment made in the because the state is not a person, it is perfectly acceptable other place to permit both parties to apply for CMP, for it to admit liability where it might have none and to not just the state? pay damages when it might not need to. Yet the states The debate has been about balance. This has been a does have a personality. The Crown has a personality—it genuinely constructive and helpful debate, both for is the vessel of our shared values and experience, it is Opposition Members and Government Members. The our common interest as a nation—and, if the state Government have made some progress. I hope that in admits liability when it should not, it impugns those Committee considerably more progress is made, so that values, it demeans us as a nation and, perhaps most we can ensure that the interests of the state and national importantly, it devalues an apology and admission of security are undoubtedly protected, but that we do not liability that might be made when it should be made. cast away the hard-won liberties of the individual. In order to protect the liberty of the nation and individual officers, it is vital, in the interests of justice, 5.56 pm that we enable the state to defend itself in these civil actions. Here, then, I part company slightly with my Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): I echo the closing right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington remarks of the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) when he says that this is an (Mr Bain). This has been a balanced and constructive unsatisfactory solution, but one that is better than the debate, and it is good to see the right hon. Member for current situation. I do not think we need apologise for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) return to the proposals, because actually they are a reaffirmation his place. He and I sat through a similar debate on the of justice in very difficult circumstances: we know that Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill a not to do so would be to deny the very values on which little over a year ago, as did my hon. and learned Friend that justice is built, but, if the information were to be the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen presented in open court, the evidence might imperil the Phillips), my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon lives of those whom all of us assembled here—both in (Mr Buckland) and the right hon. Member for Salford what we do and in the legislation that we pass—seek to and Eccles (Hazel Blears). We all discussed issues of protect. We must give them the justice they deserve. similar import concerning a similarly tiny number of people. For the TPIMs legislation, that number was The current inequality might be having a bizarre nine people, and here we hear from the Government result. It is possible, and we have no guarantee it has not that there are 20 cases pending. While the sums of happened, that a civil litigant who is known to the money involved are considerable, they are not significant security services but whom, for whatever reasons they in the grand scheme of Government spending. However, have not been able to prosecute—certain Opposition the issues of principle are of the highest order and it is Members will know of such instances—could bring a entirely right that we have had such an interesting and civil claim and win damages for tens of millions of well-informed debate after that in another place. pounds, and that money could then be recycled back In introducing the debate, the Minister without Portfolio, into terrorism and used to attack the very people who my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for have defended, or not defended, their right to bring a Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) made a powerful case for why case. That is a bizarre situation and a travesty of justice—it the current situation cannot continue and why the liberty is grotesque—so it seems wrong that any of us seek to of the litigant, sacrosanct in normal circumstances, to try to defend the status quo. It is everything that we know the evidence that might demolish his or her case, should be seeking not to do. should not be sacrosanct in these unordinary circumstances. They are not ordinary, because the evidence that might Stephen Phillips: Does my hon. Friend agree that the be presented could imperil—in many cases, would real travesty is the Government having to settle cases imperil—the lives not only of agents or officers, but and pay damages in circumstances where they might citizens of this country. have a perfectly legitimate defence, but which cannot be 795 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 796

[Stephen Phillips] grateful for their efforts and the improvements that have been made. In particular, I want to pay tribute to the deployed in court because it would reveal confidential work of my noble Friends Baroness Smith and Lord information? It is when that money goes back into the Beecham. I am also pleased that the Minister without hands of terrorists that we need to be particularly Portfolio said today that the Government would not concerned, and that is one reason why the Bill needs a seek to overturn some of the amendments made during Second Reading. the Bill’s passage through the House of Lords, and I look forward to hearing further details from the Minister Ben Gummer: Absolutely. I could not improve on my in Committee as to why they disagree with certain hon. and learned Friend’s words. It is wrong not only others. because the money might be recycled back into terrorism, The matters in the Bill are sensitive and complex, and but because it devalues the point when we have done the Opposition will work with the Government to reach something wrong and need to admit liability and learn consensus, wherever possible, based on the evidence from it. It turns everything on its head, and that is why available. The introduction of closed material proceedings we need the change. is undoubtedly the most controversial part of this legislation, I wish to make a slight political point. There have and the Opposition accept that there are rare occasions been some brave speeches from certain Opposition when their use will be necessary. We cannot continue to Members who know a great deal more about this matter accept a situation in which the Government are forced than people sitting on the Front Bench of Her Majesty’s to settle claims because they are unable to adduce Opposition. It is odd to hear ill-informed remarks about evidence without compromising vital national security the Bill being directed at those on the Government evidence. Front Bench, given that the Government have been In the other place, the noble Baroness Manningham- open about what they want to achieve, and reasonable Buller spoke passionately about the need for the security and generous in trying to accommodate the amendments services to be able to protect their standing in the eyes from another place. In the spirit of that, it behoves Her of the public and for dedicated security staff not to have Majesty’s Opposition not to use words such as “humiliating” their reputation traduced because there was no mechanism or “climbdown”, but to acknowledge that the Government for challenging allegations. However, as my right hon. are listening carefully to, and accommodating, the Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) explained arguments being made in both Houses. I hope that, at earlier, we had serious concerns about the scope of the end of the Committee stage, the Government will closed material proceedings as proposed in the Green come back to the House with a Bill that will provide Paper and again in the Bill as it was first presented to justice to the individual officers, to the intelligence the Lords. We are pleased that the Government have agencies, to the nation and to the litigants. I hope that listened to the strength of feeling expressed in the other the Bill will do something that we in this place are place and by the Opposition, and that they have now supposed to do—namely, to ensure that the dispensation indicated they will not seek to overturn all the Lords of justice is indeed just. amendments. As I said earlier, we look forward to the debate in Committee. 6.5 pm The Bill also introduces limits on the courts’ ability to Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): demand the release of information, following on from The Bill has implications for liberty, security and justice. the principles developed in the case of Norwich Pharmacal. The fact that those are serious matters has been reflected That case established the principle that an innocent in the number of reasoned and considered contributions third party could be forced to disclose information to that we have heard today. We have heard 22 speeches, in enable an action to be taken against another party. In addition to those from the Front Benches, many of the case of Binyam Mohamed, this principle was extended which have been informed by Members’ experience in to cover issues of national security. We know that the government and on the Intelligence and Security then Foreign Secretary stated that the release of such Committee. The whole House welcomes those contributions. information was likely to cause real damage to both In particular, I would like to mention those made by the national security and international relations. The Chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism, David Anderson, right hon. and learned Member for Kensington QC, has now presented evidence that there are several (Sir Malcolm Rifkind); the Chair of the Joint Committee examples where evidence has not been freely given to on Human Rights, my hon. Friend the Member for the United Kingdom because of the danger of its being Aberavon (Dr Francis); and the Chair of the Treasury released into the public domain. Several members of Select Committee, the hon. Member for Chichester the Intelligence and Security Committee have raised (Mr Tyrie), as well as those made by several former this and confirmed that it is a problem, too. senior Ministers, including my right hon. Friends the I think there is an acceptance on both sides of the Members for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), House, although not by all Members on either side, that for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), for Blackburn this situation is unacceptable. The Opposition accept (Mr Straw) and for Knowsley (Mr Howarth). The leader there is a pressing need to reassert the control principle, of the Welsh nationalists, the right hon. Member for to ensure that foreign Governments can be confident Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), also made one of his that any information passed to the UK Government usual considered contributions. will remain in the hands of the Executive. We will The Bill has already been the subject of considerable therefore support the Government in their attempts to debate in the other place, where many Members were prevent the disclosure of information under the Norwich able to draw on their considerable experience to scrutinise Pharmacal principles where the information is sensitive, it and suggest improvements. We in this House are and where its release might compromise our relations 797 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 798 with foreign allies. The Opposition have concerns, however, Thirdly, we would like to see the ISC operate under about the breadth of the current definition of sensitive the protection of parliamentary privilege and be able to information and we hope to persuade the Government take evidence under oath. The Opposition believe that in Committee that the control principle can be protected the only way to guarantee parliamentary privilege is to within a narrower definition. make the ISC a Select Committee. To confer parliamentary Finally, let me return to part 1. Although it is perhaps privilege by means of an Act of Parliament would make not as controversial as part 2, it is equally important, it subject to legal challenge. That is unacceptable, particularly strengthening both the oversight and the public standing as witnesses might divulge sensitive information to the of the security services—aims behind which the whole Committee, believing it to be subject to privilege, only House can unite. In emphasising why public support is for that to be overruled by the courts. so important to the security agencies, I refer again to We accept that there would be practical problems in the noble Baroness Manningham-Buller who drew on the creation of the ISC as a Select Committee, and that her own considerable experience to say in the other foremost among them is the need for its members to be place: vetted and approved. We hope to work with the “The support of members of the public is necessary not only in Government to find a solution to that problem during terms of general support for the organ of government but because, the Bill’s Committee stage. to do their work the agencies require that support every day of the In the other place, the Government’s further reasons week. They need the public to join them as recruits…they need for opposing the creation of the Select Committee were them as sources of information, and they need them to help in whatever way possible...Therefore, when we talk about public unconvincing. Lord Taylor’s arguments seemed to focus opinion, the services require the help of the public to do their job on the difference between statute and Standing Orders. and, in my experience, they get it.”—[Official Report, House of If the ISC were recast as a Select Committee, the rules Lords, 9 July 2012; Vol. 738, c. 932-33.] and procedures needed to safeguard the special nature Like the noble Baroness, the Opposition believe that of its proceedings would be determined by Standing public support for the security agencies will be enhanced Order. If it were created as a new type of quasi- by greater openness and scrutiny. For this reason, the parliamentary entity, its rules would be enshrined in Opposition support the Government in what they are statute. The Minister said that that extra protection was attempting to do in strengthening the role of the Intelligence essential, as a Standing Order could be amended by a and Security Committee. Indeed, we would like to see single vote in the House. The implication seemed to be the Government be far bolder in recasting the role of that that would enable the rules to be altered on a whim. the ISC to improve public understanding and scrutiny. I think that it does Parliament a great disservice to Let me deal with two further issues. One is about the suggest that either House might make such a serious Bill’s wording in respect of ongoing oversight, and I am decision without proper consideration. On the basis of sure we will spend some time in Committee looking at my experience of pushing for the modernisation of whether that wording is correct. The second is the call Parliament and for reform of its sitting hours, I can say for further resources to allow the ISC to take on these that I have found it extremely reluctant to alter any of additional roles. We also hope that we will be able to its Standing Orders without very good reason and work with the Government in Committee to extend the evidence; and I hope that the Minister has been convinced Bill’s provisions in three ways. by the serious nature of today’s debate, and the series of debates in the other place, that it cannot possibly be First, we would like to see annual public hearings said that Parliament does not afford these matters the with the head of each security agency. In the US, such full seriousness that they deserve. hearings are a well-established part of the congressional oversight of the security agencies, and perform a vital Let me finally reiterate the Opposition’s support for role in educating the public about the work the intelligence the aims that the Government are pursuing. We think services carry out. I do not see why the same role could that the Bill is far better as a result of the amendments not be performed in the UK. made in the other place. In Committee, we will work to extend the provisions of part 1 to protect the amendments Sir Malcolm Rifkind: The hon. Lady and the House to part 2 that were made in the other place, and to restrict may be interested to know that the ISC has decided—it the definition of sensitive information. I look forward has the agreement of both the Government and the to working with the Minister. I know how seriously he agencies—to hold its first public hearing, probably some takes the views of other Members, and I hope that we time in the early part of next year. If it is seen to be shall be able to reach a consensus on the best way to successful, it should indeed become a regular event. proceed.

Diana Johnson: I am grateful to the Chairman of the 6.17 pm Intelligence and Security Committee for giving us that information. It seems very positive that the first item on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home our shopping list is going to happen. Department (James Brokenshire): I am grateful for the range of contributions that have been made today, Sir Malcolm Rifkind: What is the second item? including those made by informed members of the Intelligence and Security Committee, the Joint Committee Diana Johnson: Ah! Secondly, we would like to see on Human Rights, and the Justice Committee. This is the ISC hold pre-appointment hearings for the agency an important Bill, and it is right for it to be the subject heads. The Labour Government pioneered such hearings of such vigorous and thorough debate in the House. for other public appointments, including permanent As is plain from the quality of the debate since the secretaries, and we now feel it is right to extend these introduction of the Bill, these are challenging matters, hearings to security agencies. and I respect the concern that we should get the balance 799 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 800

[James Brokenshire] We have seen significant changes over the past few decades in the evolving threat from terrorism. The UK between justice and security right. The changes in the faces a global terrorist threat from beyond our shores global landscape present us with a number of complex and our intelligence services are heavily committed to problems that we cannot ignore. The concepts of justice, protecting our national security by tackling those threats. the rule of law and human rights are fundamental We are also now in a more litigious society and the principles of which our nation has a rich heritage. combined effect has seen an increase in numbers of civil Having carefully examined our options, we believe claims against the Government. The problem is that in that the Bill will enable us to tackle the problems that these cases, the material the Government need to defend we face both justly and securely, but I accept what has their case is often classified and cannot be disclosed to been said by a number of Members today about some the court without compromising operations or risking the of those difficulties. The Chairman of the ISC, my right sensitive sources and techniques on which we rely to hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington keep the people of this country safe. As the former Lord (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), said that the Bill was not perfect, Chief Justice, Lord Woolf, said in Committee in the but was a great deal better than what we have at present. Lords, My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon “PII has the very unfortunate effect that you cannot rely on the (Mr Buckland) said that we must start with the world in material that is in issue, whereas both the claimant and the which we find ourselves, rather than the world that we Government may want to rely on that material.”—[Official Report, might like it to be. House of Lords, 11 July 2012; Vol. 738, c. 1189.] The result is that at present the courts cannot rule in Those themes were underlined during the debate, those cases, so the Government might be left with no along with other challenges that were mentioned by option but to settle. That is why the Bill seeks to Members. I was struck by what was said by my hon. introduce the use of closed material procedures in a Friend the Member for Oxford West and Abingdon small number of cases that hinge on sensitive national (Nicola Blackwood) about the changes that had been security material. made in the Lords, and the impact that they had had on her impressions of the Bill. I was also struck by the Some hon. Members have suggested that the public comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for interest immunity system is perfectly adequate to deal Wycombe (Steve Baker) about the need to ensure that with national security matters. Let me be clear that the liberty and justice were appropriately balanced. I can Government are not trying to abolish PII through this say to him very clearly that this is not about expediency Bill: it will continue to exist and be used in certain but about how we can ensure that the difficult challenges contexts. Without the possibility of a closed material of providing safety and security while reflecting justice procedure, however, a very small number of cases that are properly reflected in the changes made to the Bill. hinge on national security-sensitive information will The same applies to the comments made by my hon. not be able to reach a conclusion. When the very Friend the Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) material that would determine a case would be excluded and my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey from PII, the case cannot be fairly concluded without a and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). forum for it to be heard in. If it is central to the Government’s case, the case cannot proceed and the I recognise that some Members in the Chamber this Government may have to settle. Vast sums of taxpayers’ afternoon are fundamentally opposed to the Bill in money could be paid out as a result. principle and do not accept that the provisions are balanced in the way that I have characterised them. The Some have argued that PII leads to more information speeches from the hon. Member for Islington North being disclosed than would be the case under a CMP, (Jeremy Corbyn), my hon. Friend the Member for but we do not accept that that is the case. The court can Dewsbury (Simon Reevell) and my right hon. Friend order the disclosure of material, notwithstanding the the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) damage that would be caused to national security. But underlined some of those themes. The situation we are the Government then have the choice not to rely on that in at the moment is not right, however, and does not material, to make admissions or to seek to settle the meet many of the objections they proffered against the case entirely. That means that such a damaging disclosure Bill. We believe that it will make an important improvement is never made. So, in practice, we believe that no evidence to the situation by ensuring that difficult cases, which that can currently be heard in open court will be put cannot be heard at all because the evidence does not into closed proceedings in future. Only evidence that come within the ambit of the court or the public view, would otherwise not see the light of day will be heard by are put before a judge so that justice can be done. a judge in closed proceedings. The points made by the right hon. Member for There have been concerns that the claimant will be Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), which were reflected kept in the dark about accusations against them, though in the speeches made by my hon. and learned Friend the I hope it has been made clear through a number of Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen contributions to today’s debate that that is not the case. Phillips) and the right hon. Member for Blackburn It does no harm to restate that the Bill will introduce (Mr Straw), underlined that if there is no adjudication, closed material procedures only in civil cases, not criminal that is unsatisfactory for justice, particularly in the cases, where the Government are the defendant, and context of the cases that are settled in which there is a claimants will have full knowledge of the allegations defence for the Government but the moneys have to be that they are making. paid out. We judge the reputational risk that poses for CMPs will allow the Government to defend their case the Government and, as my hon. Friend the Member and the claimant will have a special advocate working for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) highlighted, for those individuals on their behalf, fighting their case. Moreover, it could concerned in those particular cases to be significant. well be that information that could be considered in a 801 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 802 closed material procedure is of benefit to the claimant, In conclusion, we strongly believe that the Bill is needed. and having the case heard using a closed material Yes, there are difficult issues that need to be addressed, procedure does not guarantee that the Government will but when we look at justice and security we believe that win. justice is better served by ensuring that more cases are heard than are not heard. Essentially, the part 2 provisions Mark Durkan: Will the Minister address the implications are the fundamental issue at stake. Although I respect a of schedule 2 part 2 as it applies to Northern Ireland? number of important points that have been made this That provides that where the court is of the opinion afternoon, that is the core of the issue. We believe that that there are or that there will be section 6 proceedings, justice and security will be established through the Bill. a jury can be dismissed. If there is a jury trial, the jury Therefore, I commend the Bill to the House. can be dismissed, so it is not just a matter of select Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second proceedings. The provision fundamentally alters the time. nature of the trial. What reputational damage does that do to the due character of the devolved justice system? The House divided: Ayes 262, Noes 18. Division No. 125] [6.31 pm James Brokenshire: I am clear that, as we have said throughout the debate, the measure does not relate to AYES criminal matters. It relates only to civil proceedings. If Adams, Nigel Davies, David T. C. there are concerns, I look forward to robust scrutiny, Afriyie, Adam (Monmouth) debate and discussion in Committee. I know that hon. Aldous, Peter Davies, Philip Members on both sides will make their points clearly. Amess, Mr David Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Andrew, Stuart Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. As right hon. and hon. Members who have previously Bacon, Mr Richard Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen served on Bill Committees with me know, I welcome all Baldry, Sir Tony Dorries, Nadine those contributions and we will respond to them. Baldwin, Harriett Doyle-Price, Jackie The Lords indicated that closed material procedures Barclay, Stephen Duddridge, James are absolutely necessary and strongly rejected an Baron, Mr John Duncan, rh Mr Alan amendment to remove the CMP clauses altogether. It is Barwell, Gavin Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain worth noting that the amendment was defeated by Beith, rh Sir Alan Dunne, Mr Philip 164 votes to 24. Fair points have been made. The right Bellingham, Mr Henry Ellis, Michael hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Beresford, Sir Paul Ellwood, Mr Tobias Bingham, Andrew Elphicke, Charlie Goggins) highlighted the issue of special advocates. We Evans, Jonathan are working with the special advocates to establish Birtwistle, Gordon Blackman, Bob Evennett, Mr David where there may be further training needs, and on ways Fabricant, Michael of dealing with some of the administrative issues and Blears, rh Hazel Blunt, Mr Crispin Fallon, rh Michael the processes involved. There are detailed points that we Boles, Nick Foster, rh Mr Don can return to in Committee. The right hon. Gentleman Francois, rh Mr Mark Bottomley, Sir Peter Freeman, George also highlighted the issue of inquests, a point that was Brake, rh Tom Freer, Mike touched on also by my right hon. Friend the Member Bray, Angie Fuller, Richard for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). We have Brazier, Mr Julian Garnier, Sir Edward considered this, but believe that the current arrangements, Bridgen, Andrew with an inquiry being established, are still the appropriate Garnier, Mark Brine, Steve George, Andrew way forward, but I look forward to further discussion Brokenshire, James on those matters. Gibb, Mr Nick Brooke, Annette Gilbert, Stephen I heard the points made from the Front Bench and Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Glen, John more generally in relation to the part 1 provisions on Burley, Mr Aidan Goggins, rh Paul oversight. We believe that the changes proposed in the Burns, Conor Goodwill, Mr Robert Bill strengthen oversight. A good point was made that Burns, rh Mr Simon Graham, Richard our intelligence agencies are better for the oversight. Burrowes, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen That view is reflected in all parts of the House, respecting Burstow, rh Paul Grayling, rh Chris and acknowledging the excellent work that they do for Burt, Alistair Green, rh Damian all of us in keeping our country safe. I look forward to Burt, Lorely Grieve, rh Mr Dominic further detailed discussions on those topics and on the Cable, rh Vince Griffiths, Andrew memorandum of understanding that is being worked Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gummer, Ben through with the Intelligence and Security Committee. Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hague, rh Mr William Carmichael, Neil Hames, Duncan In relation to Norwich Pharmacal, I think that there Carswell, Mr Douglas Hammond, rh Mr Philip is broad agreement across the House that the issue Chishti, Rehman Hammond, Stephen needs to be dealt with. Essentially, we are the only Chope, Mr Christopher Hands, Greg country that has this type of arrangement, which was Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harper, Mr Mark created through jurisprudence established to deal with Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harrington, Richard intellectual property cases, rather than national security Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harris, Rebecca cases, in which there is the ability to obtain information Collins, Damian Harvey, Sir Nick in that way, and that impacts on the willingness of our Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan international partners to share intelligence information Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John with us in respect of the control principle. Again, Crockart, Mike Heald, Oliver I look forward to discussing the matter further in Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Committee. Davey, rh Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon 803 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]18 DECEMBER 2012 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 804

Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Wiggin, Bill Wright, Jeremy Herbert, rh Nick Nuttall, Mr David Willetts, rh Mr David Wright, Simon Hinds, Damian O’Brien, Mr Stephen Williams, Mr Mark Yeo, Mr Tim Hoban, Mr Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Williams, Roger Young, rh Sir George Hollingbery, George Opperman, Guy Williams, Stephen Zahawi, Nadhim Hollobone, Mr Philip Ottaway, Richard Williamson, Gavin Hopkins, Kris Paice, rh Sir James Willott, Jenny Tellers for the Ayes: Howarth, rh Mr George Parish, Neil Wilson, Mr Rob Anne Milton and Howarth, Sir Gerald Pawsey, Mark Wollaston, Dr Sarah Karen Bradley Howell, John Penrose, John Hughes, rh Simon Percy, Andrew NOES Huhne, rh Chris Phillips, Stephen Hunter, Mark Pincher, Christopher Davis, rh Mr David Skinner, Mr Dennis Hurd, Mr Nick Pritchard, Mark Durkan, Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Jackson, Mr Stewart Pugh, John Edwards, Jonathan Weir, Mr Mike James, Margot Raab, Mr Dominic Hemming, John Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Javid, Sajid Reckless, Mark Hopkins, Kelvin Williams, Hywel Johnson, Joseph Rees-Mogg, Jacob Leigh, Mr Edward Winnick, Mr David Jones, Andrew Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Wood, Mike Jones, rh Mr David Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Lucas, Caroline Jones, Mr Marcus Robertson, rh Hugh MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Tellers for the Noes: Kawczynski, Daniel Robertson, Mr Laurence McDonnell, John Jeremy Corbyn and Kelly, Chris Rogerson, Dan Reevell, Simon Pete Wishart Knight, rh Mr Greg Rosindell, Andrew Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rudd, Amber Question accordingly agreed to. Lamb, Norman Ruffley, Mr David Lancaster, Mark Russell, Sir Bob Bill read a Second time. Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rutley, David Laws, rh Mr David Sanders, Mr Adrian Leadsom, Andrea Sandys, Laura JUSTICE AND SECURITY BILL [LORDS] Lee, Jessica Scott, Mr Lee (PROGRAMME) Lee, Dr Phillip Shannon, Jim Leech, Mr John Shapps, rh Grant Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Lefroy, Jeremy Sharma, Alok Order No. 83A(7)), Leslie, Charlotte Simpson, Mr Keith That the following provisions shall apply to the Justice and Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Skidmore, Chris Security Bill [Lords]: Lewis, Brandon Smith, Miss Chloe Committal Lewis, Dr Julian Smith, Henry 1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee. Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Smith, Julian Lidington, rh Mr David Smith, Sir Robert Proceedings in Public Bill Committee Lilley, rh Mr Peter Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline 2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not Lloyd, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday Lopresti, Jack Stanley, rh Sir John 14 February. Lord, Jonathan Stephenson, Andrew 3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the Loughton, Tim Stewart, Bob first day on which it meets. Luff, Peter Stewart, Iain Consideration and Third Reading Lumley, Karen Stewart, Rory Macleod, Mary Streeter, Mr Gary 4. Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading shall be Main, Mrs Anne Stride, Mel taken in two days in accordance with the following provisions of Maude, rh Mr Francis Stuart, Mr Graham this Order. May, rh Mrs Theresa Stunell, rh Andrew 5. Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously Maynard, Paul Sturdy, Julian concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the McCartney, Jason Swales, Ian moment of interruption on the second day. McIntosh, Miss Anne Swayne, rh Mr Desmond 6. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Swinson, Jo concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption McVey, Esther Swire, rh Mr Hugo on the second day. Menzies, Mark Syms, Mr Robert 7. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall Mercer, Patrick Thurso, John not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading. Metcalfe, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Other proceedings Miller, rh Maria Turner, Mr Andrew Mills, Nigel Uppal, Paul 8. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings Moore, rh Michael Vaizey, Mr Edward on Consideration of any message from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Mr Swayne.) Morgan, Nicky Vara, Mr Shailesh Morris, Anne Marie Vickers, Martin Question agreed to. Morris, David Walker, Mr Robin Morris, James Wallace, Mr Ben Mosley, Stephen Walter, Mr Robert JUSTICE AND SECURITY BILL [LORDS] Mundell, rh David Watkinson, Angela [MONEY] Munt, Tessa Weatherley, Mike Murrison, Dr Andrew Wharton, James Queen’s Recommendation signified. Neill, Robert White, Chris Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Newmark, Mr Brooks Whittaker, Craig Order No. 52(1)(a)), 805 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 18 DECEMBER 2012 806

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Justice Fund for European Aid to the Most and Security Bill [Lords], it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of— Deprived (1) any expenditure attributable to the establishment of the [Relevant document: Twenty-second Report from the Intelligence and Security Committee and the carrying out of its European Scrutiny Committee, HC 86-xxii.] functions; (2) any expenditure incurred by virtue of the Act by any 6.44 pm government department or Minister of the Crown; and (3) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions under any other enactment out of money so provided.—(Mr Swayne.) (Mr Mark Hoban): I beg to move, Question agreed to. That the House considers that the draft Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on the Fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived (European Union Document No. 15865/12 and Addenda 1 and 2) does not comply with the principle of subsidiarity for the reasons set out in the Annex to Chapter 3 of the Twenty-second Report of the European Scrutiny Committee (HC 86-xxii); and in accordance with Article 6 of Protocol (No. 2) of the Lisbon Treaty on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, instructs the Clerk of the House to forward this reasoned opinion to the presidents of the European institutions. This is the third time that I have moved a motion on this issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, is the inspiration behind this motion and I am pleased to support it. I welcome the ESC’s report on the European Commission’s proposal and I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss it on the Floor of the House. The Government share the Committee’s view that the Commission’s proposal is not consistent with the principle of subsidiarity. The proposal would establish a new instrument: the fund for European aid for the most deprived. It is intended to replace, from 2014, the European Union’s food distribution programme for the most deprived people. The current programme distributes food stocks such as butter, milk powder, beef, sugar, rice and cereals, and in 2012 the budget has a ceiling of ¤500 million. At present, 20 of the 27 member states participate. The main recipients are Italy, Spain, Poland, France and Romania. The UK has not participated since 1998, after which the previous Administration withdrew from the scheme. Both this Government and the previous Administration have opposed Commission proposals since 2008 to extend the programme and expand its social dimension. The UK has consistently set out its concern that the programme does not comply with subsidiarity. Nothing in the Commission’s proposals changes our position. As the Committee points out eloquently in its report, the Commission has not provided a convincing justification of the need for EU action. Indeed, in many ways the new proposal is even more objectionable than the current programme. It will be used not only to provide food aid, but to purchase and distribute basic consumer goods. Whereas the current scheme is optional, the new scheme will be obligatory on member states and they will be required to provide match funding of at least 15% of the costs.

Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I understand the Minister’s case that this could perfectly well be undertaken by national Governments, but do the Government intend to give any help to the network of food banks that is growing at a rate of, I think, three a week up and down the country and for which there is a clear need?

Mr Hoban: Food banks are undertaken by the voluntary sector. I will come on to the ways in which the Government provide support to people on low incomes or who are 807 Fund for European Aid to the Most 18 DECEMBER 2012 Fund for European Aid to the Most 808 Deprived Deprived [Mr Hoban] Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I congratulate the Minister on taking a firm line on this matter. I am benefit recipients, in order to demonstrate why we do glad that he is opposing this regulation. I notice that all not believe that this EU programme is right. Our principal matters have to be accounted in euros, which does not objection, of course, is one of subsidiarity, echoing the seem to be appropriate for a country that still has its ESC’s comments, but also reflecting the previous own currency. What does he think the outcome is likely Government’s stance when they withdrew from the to be in the debates and discussions in which he puts scheme. our case?

Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Mr Hoban: At the moment, discussions are taking To pick up on the Minister’s point that the voluntary place in the working groups. One discussion has taken sector makes a choice to step in, we now have up to place so far and I believe that there will be another in 300 food banks across the country under the umbrella the new year. There is currently a blocking minority of the Trussell Trust, which estimates that it will have that is opposed to the regulation. A number of member fed about 250,000 people in our country by the end of states that are concerned about the EU budget and the this financial year. Does he think that it is right that the multi-annual financial framework are keen to oppose voluntary sector has to step in to provide people in this the proposal. Of course, the money will come out of the country with emergency food aid? structural and cohesion funds, so it will not be spent on other ways to improve the economy across Europe. Mr Hoban: The hon. Lady is a prolific tabler of questions on this matter and I have answered one or two Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Will the for her today. This initiative is undertaken by the voluntary Minister give way? sector. The previous Government ignored the existence of food banks. Even at the height of the recession, Mr Hoban: I will make a bit more progress. I am sure when long-term unemployment doubled, the previous that the hon. Lady has some interesting views on Government simply ignored them and pretended that subsidiarity that she will want to share a little later. they were not there. This Government acknowledge the The Government’s view has not changed. We are existence of food banks. They play an important role unconvinced of the merits or appropriateness of the and enable people on low incomes to get food, toiletries proposal. The principle of subsidiarity, which is enshrined and other basic needs, and to use their incomes or in article 5 of the treaty on European Union, states that benefits for other purposes. We also signpost people to the EU should act collectively only when food banks, but what nobody has done yet—this point “the objectives of the proposed action cannot be sufficiently has been made on a number of occasions—is analyse achieved by the Member States” who uses food banks and why. on their own, but can “be better achieved” by action on the part of the Union. We consider that the measures to Stephen Timms: Will the Minister give way? assist the neediest members of society, as set out in the proposal, can be better and more effectively delivered Mr Hoban: I want to make progress. This debate is by individual member states through their own social about European proposals to spend taxpayers’ money programmes, not at an EU level. Member states and and, if I remember rightly, the Labour party seems very their regional and local authorities are best placed to keen to reduce the EU budget. We look forward to identify and meet the needs of deprived people in their hearing what the right hon. Gentleman has to say. I do countries and communities in ways that are administratively not know whether he is suggesting that we should enter simple and efficient. this programme and that he supports obligatory In the explanatory memorandum, the European participation. Perhaps he will clarify his position now. Commission states that the ability of member states to support those who are at the margins of society has Stephen Timms: Does the Minister accept that the been diminished and that social cohesion is threatened number of people using food banks is bound to go up by fiscal constraints. We recognise the need to protect further in the coming 12 months? the most vulnerable in society and are taking action to do so. However, as I have said, there is nothing in the proposal that could not be organised and financed by Mr Hoban: I am not going to predict that. Perhaps member states. The Commission provides no convincing the right hon. Gentleman has missed what has been argument for why it is necessary to superimpose a happening recently. He should recognise that there are European scheme. The solution must lie with the member record numbers of people in work and that unemployment state, not at EU level. Member states have that responsibility is falling. The number of people on out-of-work benefits and must take it. The Commission may argue that the has fallen by 199,000 since May 2010. I am not going to response of member states to these issues is inadequate engage in making predictions, but I would have thought or that some member states make use of the food that he celebrates the fact that more people can look distribution programme. However, the Commission does after their own families and that more people who want not make the case that the situation is the same in all to work are getting into work, meeting that basic aspiration member states. There is, therefore, no justification for that we all want people to share. making the fund mandatory for all member states. The right hon. Gentleman did not say whether his party will sign up to the Commission’s proposal and Kate Green: In a debate on food poverty a few days whether they want to spend more taxpayers’ money in ago in Westminster Hall, which was called by my hon. Europe. Hopefully he will mention that in his remarks. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana 809 Fund for European Aid to the Most 18 DECEMBER 2012 Fund for European Aid to the Most 810 Deprived Deprived Berger), the Minister of State, Department for Environment, to tackling the root causes of such problems, including Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Somerton worklessness, educational failure and family breakdown. and Frome (Mr Heath) made much play of the fact that The EU structural and cohesion funds are better used food poverty was being caused not, this Minister will be in tackling the root causes of poverty than its symptoms. pleased to hear, by the actions of the Government— On food aid, the Healthy Start scheme provides a although some of us were sceptical—but by rising food nutritional safety net in the form of vouchers for basic and commodity prices around the world. Is that not healthy foods and free vitamin supplements for pregnant exactly the kind of issue that is susceptible to collective women and children under four from disadvantaged European solutions, particularly when this country is and low-income families. Initiatives such as FareShare seeing a rising number of people, including working and FoodCycle are good examples of essential work that people, having to access food banks because of the charities are doing to support communities. We therefore Government’s failure to act? believe that member states are capable of taking such action to help the most deprived, and we are not convinced Mr Hoban: I am not entirely sure what European that the European Union is better placed to take such action the hon. Lady thinks would tackle that problem. action. We do need to examine the regulation of commodity We agree with the European Scrutiny Committee that markets, which is happening in connection with MIFID the Commission has provided no convincing argument II—the second markets in financial instruments directive that the proposal meets the principle of subsidiarity, —at the moment. However, European Governments and I thank the Committee for its work and for proposing intervening to buy up food stocks might not be the most the motion for debate. helpful action. Those with long memories, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), will acknowledge that the source of the programme in question 6.58 pm was the intention to tackle another problem—the wine Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I am grateful to lakes, butter mountains and so on. European intervention the Minister for setting out the Government’s position perhaps causes as many problems as it is intended to and look forward to hearing the European Scrutiny solve. Committee’s views in due course. In justifying its position, the Commission points to First, we need to be absolutely clear that there is a the Europe 2020 strategy and its headline target of large and growing need in the UK for the type of help reducing poverty and tackling social inclusion. However, that the fund would be designed to provide. The Minister as the European Scrutiny Committee indicated in its mentioned FareShare a moment ago, and I notice that it report, the proposal was not envisaged when the Europe gets a couple of mentions in the impact assessment of 2020 strategy was devised, nor does the existence of an the fund, for example on page 100 of the bundle. As he EU target mean that action must be taken at EU level. rightly said, FareShare has never obtained any funding In any case, the EU already has instruments to strengthen from the EU because the UK has not taken up the cohesion in the form of structural funds. We believe funding that is in place. It is slightly confusing that it is that EU cohesion policy should contribute to tackling mentioned in the impact assessment, because that implies poverty and the European social fund programme should that it has been a beneficiary, but it has not. My contribute to helping disadvantaged people into work. understanding, however, is that ¤50 million is earmarked We are also concerned that the proposal does not for the UK from the existing fund, none of which is represent value for money and would be burdensome to currently handed over to the UK. administer. Using EU structural and cohesion fund There is certainly a rapidly growing need for the processes to deliver the instrument in question would service provided by FareShare and food banks such as lead to heavy and costly administrative burdens on those supported by the Trussell Trust, to which my hon. member states and partner organisations. The structural Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana and cohesion funds are there for very different activities Berger) referred to a few minutes ago. The latest annual from the new fund. They do not buy and distribute report from FareShare showed that it spent £1.6 million food and consumer goods. The new fund will require last year. As those who are responsible for FareShare different, and probably more burdensome, procurement, say, a small fraction of the ¤50 million earmarked for monitoring and auditing processes. Not only is it the UK would enable it to transform what it is doing. inconsistent with subsidiarity, it will also use resources FareShare provides food to 800 charities and, through that would be better deployed at national or local level. them, to almost 40,000 people a day who would otherwise If the fund were removed from the proposals, the UK not have enough to eat. It is a wholesale operation could argue for an equivalent reduction of ¤2.5 billion supplying food to charities on the front line, and the in the EU budget over the seven years of the multi-annual food that it is distributes is sourced from food retailers financial framework. Given the Labour party’s view, I and manufacturers, for whom the food is surplus to assume it would support that. requirements. In opposing the Commission’s proposal, I reiterate A few minutes ago, the Minister said that everything that the Government strongly support measures to tackle was absolutely fine and that there really are not any poverty and social exclusion at member state level. In problems in the UK: there are more people in work the UK, we have a full range of benefits and tax credits than ever before, and so on. However, the most recent in place to cover financial needs for those in and out of annual FareShare report says: work. We are investing £400 million in the current “More people are suffering hardship and needing food support spending review period in helping local authorities prevent than ever before. Demand for our food is rocketing.” and tackle homelessness, and we are committed to The Minister, for reasons that I entirely understand, eradicating child poverty. We are taking a new approach was unwilling to accept that the demand on food banks 811 Fund for European Aid to the Most 18 DECEMBER 2012 Fund for European Aid to the Most 812 Deprived Deprived [Stephen Timms] 100,000 are people for whom jobcentres have been too slow in making a payment or made a mistake. Food will go up in the next 12 months, but it will undoubtedly banks say that more people are turning up with no do so. Indeed, only yesterday, he sent me a written money because they have been sanctioned by Jobcentre answer to a question that I tabled about the impact of Plus. Often, they have no idea why they have been the benefit cap in London. The information that he sanctioned, and know only that they have got no money supplied was that in London alone, 27,600 households and must get food from the food bank. will lose income when the benefit cap takes effect in April, and of those, 10,800 households will lose over Luciana Berger: My right hon. Friend will know that £100 a week. There is no doubt at all in mind or, I if someone goes to a food bank, they must tick a box suspect, in the mind of any objective observer that the giving the reason they have to access emergency food need for the kind of service that FareShare and food aid, and more than 40% say it is because of delays to banks provide will only increase in the next few months. their benefit payments. Does my right hon. Friend share The number of food banks supported by the Trussell my concern that in an article in The Guardian, Ministers Trust, as my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, said they aim to ensure that 80% of recipients get Wavertree said, is about to top the 300 mark. Three new benefits within 16 days? Sixteen days is long enough to food banks are set up every week, so the number has wait for people who have no cushion or money at all, doubled over the past year. They are all Church-based, but what about the 20% of people who have to wait for and involve Church members and non-members in their more than 16 days? Does my right hon. Friend share my governance; there are 3,700 churches and 3,000 schools concern that— involved at the moment. As my hon. Friend pointed out, a quarter of a million people will receive food from Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. a food bank in the course of this year. It is a remarkable Interventions should be brief and one at a time. The and impressive initiative, but it is also a terrible indictment hon. Lady has made her point. that so many people in Britain cannot afford basic food, and have to go to a food bank to obtain it. Stephen Timms: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. As well as delays there is the problem of mistakes Luciana Berger: We are the seventh most industrialised and people being wrongly sanctioned. Friday before nation, and the number of people accessing emergency last I met a young man in my constituency who has food aid has exploded. It was 26,000 under the Labour been sanctioned and told that he will lose benefits for Government—I make that point, because it was 26,000 14 months because he is attending a residential course people too many—but I wish to reinforce the point that delivered by the Prince’s Trust. An agreement between my right hon. Friend has just made. By the end of the Jobcentre Plus and the Prince’s Trust means that people year, a quarter of million people will have had to go to a on Prince’s Trust activities are not sanctioned if they are food bank. If Members go to meet the people who go to unable to sign on while on a residential activity, but in a food bank they will see that they do not go in with that case—and, I fear, in others—the agreement is not smiling faces—they go in hanging their heads in shame. being properly implemented by the jobcentre. Does my right hon. Friend not agree that the Government should do everything in their power to make sure that Luciana Berger: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend no one needs to access emergency food aid in the UK? and I hope not to intervene on him further. I have one more point for my final intervention. The Minister said that he welcomed the number of people who are in Stephen Timms: I completely agree with my hon. work, but we heard today that if people who access Friend, who makes a powerful and telling point. As she working tax credits call his Department’s phone line—I will know, food banks work hard to minimise the loss of know this because my office called today—they are told dignity involved in going to a food bank. For example, that they have to wait three weeks for the form, and that they often give out food in supermarket carrier bags so when they get it back they must wait at least two weeks that it does not look as if people have been to a food for it to be processed. Those are people in work who bank. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: it is a terrible depend on additional funds to support them. Does he indictment of the state of our nation that a quarter of a share my concern that although the Government are million people have to do that this year, and the number, keen to see people in work, those are the very people I confidently and regretfully predict, is bound to go up who are being crucified? over the next few months. Why has that terrible thing occurred? It is, of course, Stephen Timms: That is an alarming report and I am difficult to survive on benefits or on a low working grateful to my hon. Friend for passing it on. That matter income, and the Government’s plan to uprate benefits will be on the Minister’s desk—[Interruption.] I beg his by less than inflation will undoubtedly make matters pardon; it will be on a desk in his former Department in worse over the next few months—I have spoken already the Treasury. There are worries—we have heard reports about the effects of the benefit cap that will take effect today—about delays in answering the phone at Her in April. The plight of those who lose more than £100 a Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and I hope that my week—as many will when the benefit cap comes in—will hon. Friend’s point will be addressed. be desperate, and a surge of people will be drive to food banks, able to feed themselves and their families only as Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The problem is a result of the help they find there. not only about delays in payments but about the The Trussell Trust—this returns to the Minister’s complications of the system and changes in people’s direct responsibilities—makes the additional point that circumstances, financially and otherwise. Such things of the 250,000 recipients we have heard about this year, all contribute to the problems for those claiming housing 813 Fund for European Aid to the Most 18 DECEMBER 2012 Fund for European Aid to the Most 814 Deprived Deprived benefit, jobseeker’s allowance, income support and so the Minister has indicated, that could happen despite on. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the issue UK objections—will he consider making the UK share is not just about the speed of the process, but about of the fund available to FareShare and others that do making the system easier for people? such a vital job?

Stephen Timms: Yes, the hon. Gentleman is right. 7.14 pm One thing that worries me is growing reports of jobcentres taking a trigger-happy approach to sanctions. People Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): To paraphrase President do not know why they have been sanctioned; all they Hollande, with whom I have no doubt those on the know is that their money is suddenly taken away. The Opposition Front Bench are in agreement, a Euro handout network of jobcentres is the Minister’s direct responsibility. is not just for Christmas, but for life. As my hon. Friend the Member for North East Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Is Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) pointed out, subsidiarity the right hon. Gentleman arguing that, instead of sending is the issue in this debate. I could spend a great deal of a reasoned opinion on subsidiarity to the EU in respect time debating this, but the European Scrutiny Committee’s of emergency aid, we should ask the EU to take over report sets out some of the aspects in more detail. The our social services budget? Government have set out their arguments in the explanatory memorandum and the Minister has spoken, so it seems Stephen Timms: I will come promptly to subsidiarity, to me that on this occasion it would be more appropriate which the hon. Gentleman properly asks me to address, to deal with the question of subsidiarity than to attempt but it is right first to set out the scale of the need for the to deal with the questions that arise regarding the kind of aid that, it is envisaged, would be supported relationship between the member states themselves and through the fund. the United Kingdom. The big need that exists is being addressed by A reasoned opinion is a new procedure provided for organisations such as FareShare and the Trussell Trust under the Lisbon treaty. It provides a mechanism for network of food banks. There is absolutely no doubt challenging Commission legislative proposals on the that that need will rise in the coming year. However, as grounds of subsidiarity. In a nutshell, it means that the hon. Gentleman rightly says, the question is whether national Parliaments have eight weeks, from the publication funding through the EU is the best way to organise the of a proposal, to submit a reasoned opinion. If such provision of that help. The European Scrutiny Committee, opinions represent one third of all the votes of national of which he is a member, makes the valid point that Parliaments, the Commission has to reconsider its proposal. there is no reason why the support cannot be delivered The deadline in this case is midnight Brussels time on through a national initiative rather than by the EU—I 26 December 2012, which is why the debate is taking agree with the Minister’s point on that. place now. Setting up a fund at EU level is costly and bureaucratic, I am glad to read in the motion that the Government so I sympathise with the Committee’s concerns, but the agree with the Committee’s proposals. I was also extremely problem is that the UK Government are not providing glad to hear the shadow Minister effectively say that the any such support. I therefore have some questions for Opposition agree with the principles that underpin our the Minister and want to press him further. Does he reasoned opinion. The motion before the House is to accept that food banks and others provide a vital and approve the draft reasoned opinion, which is set out in indispensible service, and that without them tens of the annex to chapter 3 of the report, and to instruct the thousands in Britain would not have enough to eat in Clerk of the House to forward it to the presidents of the 2012? Given the changes that we know are coming in European institutions. That is the formality. the welfare system over the next few months, does he The purpose of the draft regulation is to establish accept that the problem is bound to get worse? To what a new fund for European aid to the most deprived with, extent are the Government interested in what organisations as the Minister said, a proposed budget of ¤2.5 billion such as FareShare and food banks must do? Will he for the period 2014-2020. I am bound to point out that confirm—I am confident that this is true—that there is those years reflect the period of the multi-annual financial currently no UK Government support for them? I framework on which a number of us voted recently, with believe that local authorities have been able to help in respect to the European budget, saying that it should be some instances, but local authority funds are being reduced. The object in this instance, however, is: tightly squeezed, so that source is diminishing. “to alleviate poverty and material deprivation in the EU by Will the Minister explain why the UK does not take supporting national schemes for the distribution of food products up the ¤50 million share of the existing EU food distribution and the provision of basic consumer goods for the personal use of programme? That is not a partisan point, but a genuine homeless people or children. It would replace an existing EU inquiry—I was part of a Government who took the Food Distribution Programme…in place since 1987”. same view as the Minister, although the problem was a The new fund will be based on the EU cohesion policy great deal smaller at that time, as my hon. Friend the and resourced from the structural funds. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree has pointed out. No With respect to the draft reasoned opinion, we conclude doubt there is a downside of taking up that aid, but it that the proposed legislation breaches the principle of would be helpful if the Minister could explain what it is. subsidiarity for four reasons. The Commission says that Is it not a bit rich of the UK Government to argue there is uncertainty about the ability of some member against the new programme on the ground that they states to provide the social investment needed to prevent could do the same thing perfectly well—they rightly further fracturing of social cohesion, but it does not point to the principle of subsidiarity—if they in fact demonstrate that all member states are in the same have no intention of doing so? If the fund is set up—as position. Furthermore, there is no evidence about which 815 Fund for European Aid to the Most 18 DECEMBER 2012 Fund for European Aid to the Most 816 Deprived Deprived [Mr William Cash] There simply is no basis in existing legislation to justify the use of this ¤2.3 billion for the purpose member states are unable to provide this investment. described by the European Commission. The Commission’s The draft regulation would, however, bind all member impact assessment states: states. “European financial support can demonstrate the direct solidarity Secondly, the Commission has not provided sufficient of the Union with the poor people, thus taking up on the broad justification for EU action on the basis of the Europe request by European citizens.” 2020 strategy—we go into that in more detail in our It is difficult to understand what that is supposed to report, which is available to the House. A principal mean in practice. It is just a generalised description, objective of the proposal is a desire for a highly visible rather than an analysis of the use of the power for the EU funding instrument to mitigate negative perceptions right purpose. I am bound to ask the Minister, therefore, of the EU’s contribution to economic and financial whether he thinks that the cohesion funds—resourced crisis. The Committee argues that such anxieties, whether as they are by member states—should be used to founded or unfounded, are not a legitimate basis for “demonstrate the direct solidarity of the Union with the poor EU legislation. people” I would argue that the answer to alleviating poverty in those member states. On the use of expressions about and preventing the difficulties being experienced in demonstrating direct solidarity with the poor people, I member states lies elsewhere. No one can doubt that the am bound to say that, yes, people are being seriously difficulties in many member states—youth unemployment adversely affected, but we should be asking what the running at over 53% in Spain and Greece and vastly real cause of that is, and whether this is the right way to increased unemployment among young people and others try to solve the problem. Those generalised expressions in all member states, with one or two exceptions—are of anxiety are not the way to run the European Union. the result of the economic policies that have been pursued under the existing treaties. The answer lies in Jacob Rees-Mogg: Does my hon. Friend agree that growing small and medium-sized businesses. The taxation that is the most extraordinarily condescending language then taken from their profits could be ploughed back for people who are on very high salaries and paying into the relevant part of the public sectors in each very low taxes to be using? member state—including in this country—to provide the kind of help that the Government here have rightly Mr Cash: I could not agree more, and I would love to indicated they will provide in order to alleviate poverty, go down that route. I will not do so tonight, but the where it is necessary to do so. overpayment of civil servants in the European Union is The question of whether these anxieties are founded a scandal. or unfounded is not a legitimate basis for EU legislation. Does the Minister believe that there is evidence of a For EU supranational intervention on poverty and broad “request by European citizens” for this type of social exclusion in member states to be justified, there supranational financial support? From what he has must be evidence of a problem that cannot be satisfactorily said, he clearly does not. The Commission’s impact addressed by action at national level in all member assessment also states: states, but this evidence is simply lacking. I am glad to note that both the Minister and the shadow Minister “Currently more and more social stakeholders and EU citizens perceive the EU as a threat for their personal and collective agree with that proposition, and I repeat that the answer protection.” lies in growth, although how we get that growth is the subject for a separate debate. It goes on: Another problem is that the rule of law, which is the “Action at European level is required, all the more so, as a lack of social cohesion would hinder the Union’s further development basis on which the much-vaunted aspirations of the EU and undermine its legitimacy in the eyes of its citizens.” are meant to be based, is consistently being breached. I could give many such examples; we have reported on them In other words, this aspiration is based on the fact that in the past. There is article 122 in respect of the European the Commission wants to create a perception that the financial stability mechanism, there are the breaches of European Union is helping people, and it is then calling the no-bail-out clauses, the failure of the rule of law in for a vast amount of money to justify that perception. respect of the stability and growth pact and the 25/27 In a way, this is an exercise in legitimised propaganda. decision that the Prime Minister vetoed but which is The Committee found that statement startling on a still subject to a legal reserve. There have been many number of levels. Does the Minister agree with the other instances and they are continuing. Commission that the EU is perceived as a threat to the The principle of subsidiarity, which is embedded in “personal and collective protection” of its citizens? the treaties, is meant to mean that, where matters should Does he think it legitimate for this type of humanitarian be dealt with at member-state level, that is where they funding to be used to reinforce the EU’s legitimacy? should be dealt with, and the EU and its institutions This is almost akin to Soviet propaganda. should not arrogate to themselves the alleged right to A constant complaint by our Committee is that the legislate or impose burdens on member states in Commission does not pay sufficient attention to the contravention of the legal requirements prescribed by need to confirm that its legislative proposals comply the treaties, one of which is subsidiarity. It so happens with the principle of subsidiarity. I have given the that in the Lisbon treaty member states agreed to this House some instances of breaches of the rule of law. procedure for reasoned opinions, which is a way of What kind of Government does the Commission purport challenging a breach of the rule of law. For precisely to run, if it breaches the rule of law whenever it suits it that reason and in the light of the arguments I have set to do so? When it was breaking the rules on the European out, we put forward this reasoned opinion. financial stability mechanism, for example, Madame 817 Fund for European Aid to the Most 18 DECEMBER 2012 Fund for European Aid to the Most 818 Deprived Deprived Lagarde came out of a meeting and said, “We’ve violated clear-cut breach of the rules that they have set themselves, all the rules because we want to preserve the euro.” The they turn round and say, “Well, we listened to what you thinking, which is very dangerous, seems to be: “Providing said. We are not going to enter into an argument with we can use the power that the member states have given you about whether you are right on your reasoned us to get what we want, it does not matter whether we opinion”—they cannot; there is no way that could can justify our actions according to the rule of law or possibly be justified—and then they say, “But we are the principle of subsidiarity. We’re going to do it anyway, still going to vote for it.” That is the way to destroy the and we’re going to justify it by talking about people’s European Union, and they are doing a pretty good job. perceptions.” It is no wonder that people like me get up repeatedly—like 7.32 pm pestering wasps, as I said to the Prime Minister the other day—and try to ensure that we keep the European Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): As Commission under surveillance and control. That is so often, the European Union finds itself in these precisely what the European Scrutiny Committee is positions essentially by accident. If we look at the doing. We are ensuring that these matters are properly documentation, we see that this proposal would replace looked at, and I am delighted that the Government are the existing EU food distribution programme for the going with us on this occasion. In this instance—believe most deprived, which has been in place since 1987. That it or not—the word “subsidiarity” is not even mentioned was put in place when the common agricultural policy in the Commission’s explanatory memorandum. Will was building up butter mountains and milk lakes—and, the Minister give us his assessment of the Commission’s rather excitingly, wine lakes—and it was thought that it assertion that the proposal does comply with subsidiarity? would be a good idea to distribute them to member Does he agree that, in order to warrant supranational states and the people within them rather than allowing action, the Commission must show that the provision of them to rot or having to pay large sums for storage. I emergency aid in some member states is undermining cannot remember anybody getting any of the wine out social cohesion in others, and that there is a genuine of the wine lake, but that problem went away when the cross-border element involved? I am arguing the case on basis of subsidising the CAP was changed and there subsidiarity, never mind on the justification of the was a move away from all the payments relating to arguments on the merits of giving money. It is an utter, production. Production fell to be more in balance with complete and devastating tragedy that people all over demand, so the lakes and the mountains dissipated. Europe are resorting to using food banks. I sympathise Once the EU as an organisation has its hands on a with the concerns of the hon. Member for Liverpool, particular power—[Interruption.]—or piggy bank, it is Wavertree (Luciana Berger) about those very people. I reluctant to give it up. It sees that it has this power that do not have any problem there. It is one of the reasons is no longer of any use because the intervention stores why I spend as much time as I can on matters relating to in member states cannot be used to provide food for the international aid in countries throughout the world and needy, so it comes up with a scheme—one that will cost in the Commonwealth. I am concerned about these ¤2.5 billion of our money—to provide a means of people, but we cannot use this sort of legislative framework distributing that food in deprived member states. It then because of the misuse to which it is being subjected. So comes up with the reasons to justify it. does the Minister think that the Commission has proved the existence of this cross-border element? It is worth noting on page 11 of the documentation the justification in the Commission’s explanatory memorandum. It states: Mr Hoban: No. “EU action is justified on the grounds of Article 174 (TFEU) which provides for the Union to ‘promote its overall harmonious Mr Cash: I am delighted to hear that. This is where it development’ by ‘developing and pursuing its actions leading to gets tricky for us as a Parliament. We generally agree the strengthening of its economic, social and territorial cohesion’, that this is not the right thing to do and I believe that and on Article 175 (TFEU) which specifies the role of the EU structural funds in achieving this objective and makes provisions the Opposition agree with that in terms of subsidiarity, for the adoption of specific actions outside the Structural Funds. although they have expressed their view about the question EU-level action is necessary given the level of poverty and of the merits. The problem is that the number of reasoned social exclusion in the Union and the unacceptable diversity of opinions on this proposal will fall far short of the the situation among individual Member States, further aggravated minimum required to oblige the Commission to reconsider. by the economic and fiscal crisis, which has led to a deterioration However, in the opinion of the Committee, that does of social cohesion and lessened the chances of achieving the not mean that a reasoned opinion of the House of Europe 2020 Strategy’s objective in relation to the fight against Commons is without meaning or consequence. poverty and social exclusion.” Finally, will the Minister tell us whether—and, if so, There we see the heart of the matter. to what extent—the Government plan to make use of Having bankrupted its member states by making the reasoned opinion in the Council negotiations on them tie themselves into an overvalued euro, the European this proposal. As I said to the Prime Minister on Union now says that people are poor and suffering as a another subject, it is difficult—he is between a rock and result, and that we—the European Union—must therefore hard place. There are dilemmas, but we as a Committee look after them. That is like shooting someone in the have a job to do, which is to point out where the leg and then ringing for an ambulance. It is a most subsidiarity has been breached and to present a reasoned unsatisfactory way of carrying on, and it does not opinion. What really troubles me is that we do our job remove the offence of shooting someone in the leg in and look to other member states that are constantly the first place. It is, in its way, deeply dishonest, troubling berating us for our so-called “attitude” towards the and bordering on wicked that the European Union European Union. However, when there is an absolutely should force such great austerity on Portugal, Ireland, 819 Fund for European Aid to the Most 18 DECEMBER 2012 820 Deprived [Jacob Rees-Mogg] I am therefore delighted that Members on both sides of the House support the reasoned opinion. Spain and, in particular, Greece so that grandmothers Question put and agreed to. in Greece cannot afford their housing, and then come Resolved, along with a scheme that will give them a little bit of money. Although ¤2.5 billion of our money is a lot to us That the House considers that the draft Regulation of the who are paying into Europe, it is not a huge amount in European Parliament and of the Council on the Fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived (European Union Document No. 15865/12 the grand scheme of expenditure across member states. and Addenda 1 and 2) does not comply with the principle of It is a little bit of money to spend on a propaganda subsidiarity for the reasons set out in the Annex to Chapter 3 of exercise to persuade member states that things are not the Twenty-second Report of the European Scrutiny Committee as bad as they seem. (HC 86-xxii); and in accordance with Article 6 of Protocol (No. 2) of the Lisbon Treaty on the application of the principles Mr Cash: Does it not smack rather of the words of subsidiarity and proportionality, instructs the Clerk of the attributed to Marie Antoinette at the time of the French House to forward this reasoned opinion to the presidents of the European institutions. revolution, when she allegedly said of the starving people of Paris, “Give them cake”? Business without Debate Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing should like both hon. Members to return to the specific Order No. 119(11)), points that we discussing this evening. The scope of the debate is the subsidiarity issue as outlined in the proposed RISKS AND SAFETY ASSESSMENTS ON NUCLEAR POWER reasoned opinion, and that is what we should be discussing. PLANTS That this House takes note of European Union Document Jacob Rees-Mogg: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. No. 14400/12, a Communication from the Commission to the I am very glad that you have returned me to this Council and the European Parliament on the comprehensive risks and safety assessments (“stress tests”) of nuclear power plants in absolutely key point. the European Union and related activities; agrees with the Government Amendment X to the United States constitution, that there is a need to ensure that a robust EU nuclear safety which is part of the Bill of Rights, provides for all regime is in place; and supports the Government’s view that any powers that are not specifically designated for the United changes to the current regime should be evidence based to ensure States to be reserved to the states themselves. What do that they are proportionate to the risks they aim to address and do not result in a shift of competence away from Member we have in Europe? We have the vague term “subsidiarity”, States.—(Anne Milton.) which means that if in an impossibly short time a sufficient number of member states lodge an objection Question agreed to. with the European Commission, it may, out of its benevolent generosity and kindness, decide to reconsider PETITION its proposals. This is what we are doing: we are saying to the European Union, “We think that what you are Hemlington Library (Middlesbrough) doing is wrong. We think that what you are doing is so fundamentally wrong that it should be opposed, and 7.39 pm that it is indeed a scandal. We think that what you have done to member states is ruin their economies and then Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East give them back ¤2.5 billion of their own money.” Cleveland) (Lab): The petition states: The document states: The Petition of residents of Middlesbrough, “European financial support can demonstrate the direct solidarity Declares that the Petitioners acknowledge the unfair and savage of the Union with the poor people”— cuts imposed on Middlesbrough and particularly the impact to Hemlington library; further that the Petitioners note that local my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) authors Richard Millward and Peter Brunton support this Petition quoted this as well— and also note the great work done by local Councillors Nicky “thus taking up on the broad request by European citizens.” Walker and Jeanette Walker who made this Petition possible, alongside local volunteers including school children from Hemlington Well, I do not like being a European citizen anyway. Hall Primary, St. Gerard’s Primary and Viewley Hill School. I think that it is an affront to be called such a thing. I The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons am a subject of Her Majesty, and long may I remain so. urges the Department for Communities and Local Government However, I cannot imagine that anyone in this country, to explore every possible avenue, including the obtaining of funds whether he or she accepts the term “European citizen” from the development at Hemlington Grange, to keep Hemlington or not, really wants the EU, having crushed nations, Library open. then to give them crumbs from the rich man’s table. And the Petitioners remain, etc. [P001151] 821 18 DECEMBER 2012 High Carbon Investment 822

High Carbon Investment The UK has led the way in using carbon budgets to manage its progress on reducing domestic emissions Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House and it is time to apply that approach to the financial —(Anne Milton.) do now adjourn. markets and align the energy sector with climate targets. Otherwise, we are in danger of allowing a lack of 7.40 pm proper financial oversight and regulation to condemn Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Almost us to temperature rises of as much as 6°—a figure that a year ago, an open letter from a high-profile coalition was even reinforced in a report by PricewaterhouseCoopers of investors, politicians and scientists to the Governor of just last month. the Bank of England warned that the huge reserves The financial markets are an indicator of where the of coal, oil and gas held by companies listed in the City energy industry is heading and at present it is clear that of London are what they termed “sub-prime” assets the diversion of capital investment away from carbon- and pose a systemic risk to economic stability. It is that intensive energy sources towards clean energy technologies risk and what could be done to protect the economy is not occurring fast enough. Unless the financial system that I want to speak about this evening. I apologise in starts to respond with some urgency, it is increasingly advance for the technical nature of the debate, but I exposed to the potential for a drastic correction to hope the Minister will agree with me that the subject is reduce emissions—in other words, the risk of the carbon important. bubble bursting. I want to lay out the new maths of climate change, The UK economy is particularly exposed because of which quantifies the difference between the total amount the global role played by our financial sector in raising of fossil fuels in existence that we know of and the amount capital. London’s strong reputation attracts companies of coal, oil and gas that can be burnt unmitigated if we from all around the world and has resulted in it becoming are to have a decent chance of achieving the internationally one of the global centres for natural resources companies. agreed objective of limiting global warming to below Indeed, the UK has a much greater exposure to climate 2°. Industry figures suggest that about 2,795 gigatonnes change risk through London’s financial market than it of carbon dioxide are locked up in the known proven does from its own domestic emissions. Carbon Tracker coal, oil and gas reserves around the world. That figure analysis shows that at the end of 2010 the coal, oil and can be compared with the much smaller amount, gas listed in London was the equivalent of 105.5 gigatonnes 565 gigatonnes of carbon dioxide, that research by the of carbon dioxide. That is 10 times the UK’s domestic Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research has carbon budget of around 10 gigatonnes of carbon identified as remaining in our carbon budget for the dioxide between 2011 and 2050. period 2011 to 2050. That shows that only about one Very few of these reserves are actually located in the fifth of known fossil fuel reserves can be burnt and their UK. For example, one third of the coal is in Australia, emissions released if we are to stay within the carbon with major reserves also in Indonesia, South Africa and budget. That analysis was confirmed by the International Botswana. Only a tiny proportion of the coal listed in Energy Agency in its recent world energy outlook for 2012. London is actually in the UK—about 0.36%. This Research by the Carbon Tracker initiative has shown means that investors, such as pension funds, which put that at the end of 2010, 745 gigatonnes of carbon their money into so-called UK funds are in fact exposing dioxide were present as coal, oil and gas reserves on the themselves to risks around the world. For example, stock exchanges of the world. That means that just the there are increasing constraints on the markets for coal reserves owned by listed companies, if burned so that across the world, including carbon taxes in Australia the carbon dioxide is released, already exceed the 2° and South Africa, the EU emissions trading scheme, carbon budget. In other words, there is a major disconnect carbon intensity targets in China, mercury regulations between the direction the world’s stock exchanges are in the United States, and water availability in India. taking and global efforts to prevent dangerous climate Moreover, renewable technologies are becoming more change, such as the recent UN negotiations at which the advanced and more competitive on price all the time. Secretary of State worked hard to argue for a 2° threshold. That has led to increasing uncertainty about the viability Lord Stern made the following observation in a Financial of new coal power generation in a number of markets. Times article during the Durban climate conference last All sectors go through changes, which can result December: in obsolete technologies and stranded assets. The “As the negotiations at the UN climate change summit in communications industry, for example, has seen a rapid Durban reach the critical stage, we must not overlook a fundamental switch to mobile communications. Similarly, traditional contradiction between the way global fossil fuel reserves are photographic equipment has been superseded by digital evaluated and long-term policy goals. By ignoring this contradiction, companies and markets, as well as governments, are undermining photography and multipurpose devices that can take management of the huge risks that rising levels of greenhouse pictures and share them with others. We need a similar gases pose to their survival.” revolution in the energy sector, which brings through As Lord Stern indicates, if greenhouse levels continue new technologies and delivers the green investment and to rise, that poses significant risks to business as well as development opportunities that investors and Governments to society as a whole. For example, the insurance and are seeking. And the markets need to reflect carbon property sectors are already seeing increased claims due constraints and the reality of fossil fuels as stranded to extreme weather events. To give just one example, the assets. If they fail to do so, as Al Gore argues, fossil fuel estimated property damage costs from Hurricane Sandy reserves will be the next sub-prime crisis. are $20 billion. Once the costs of lost business are added We therefore urgently need action better to prepare in, that could reach $50 billion according to some the financial markets for this systemic risk and to estimates. Ironically, the hurricane even stopped the prevent a repeat of the recent financial crisis. In the first New York stock exchange from functioning. instance this is about ensuring that the financial system 823 High Carbon Investment18 DECEMBER 2012 High Carbon Investment 824

[Caroline Lucas] Climate Change is actively involved in discussions about the shape of the proposals and that he is using every at least starts to consider the risks associated with those opportunity to press for an approach that will demonstrate so-called stranded assets. HSBC estimates that carbon the UK’s commitment to global leadership and protect constraints post-2020 could impact valuations of coal our economy from the threats posed by the carbon assets, for example, by as much as 44%, with the actual bubble. stock impact determined by company exposure to coal. The Climate Change Act 2008 draws its powers from This could translate into a downside risk of between the Companies Act 2006, and section 416(4) of that Act 7% and 15%, according to HSBC, adding a new dimension allows the Secretary of State to to risk assessment for both corporate strategy and anyone looking to avoid further economic crisis. “make provision by regulations as to other matters that must be disclosed in a directors’ report.” Around one third of the value of the FTSE 100 is currently made up of oil, gas and mining companies, Given the significance of the carbon dioxide potential with investors tied into the composition of the markets. of reserves, surely extractive companies must be required That can be directly, through the use of tracker funds, to report that vital information at the earliest opportunity. which mirror the largest companies listed on the exchange, That information can then be collated by the regulator for example the FTSE 100 Index, or it can be indirectly, and the level of carbon dioxide in reserves listed on our by using such indices as a benchmark for fund performance, stock exchange can be monitored. These data should in which results in funds closely matching the sector turn be considered and reported by the Bank of England’s composition of the benchmark. As a result many investors Financial Policy Committee. The committee is charged end up following the market, owing to the herd mentality with identifying, monitoring and taking action to remove of the investment system. or reduce systemic risks, with a view to protecting and enhancing the resilience of the UK financial system. The Kay review commissioned by the Government found that equity markets are subject to structural flaws A number of actors from the financial markets, including which prevent the management of investments from Aviva, HSBC and PricewaterhouseCoopers, have already reflecting the long-term investment horizon of many made representations to the Bank’s executive director pension funds. John Kay recommended that metrics for financial stability on that matter. Without a thermometer should be directly relevant to the creation of long-term taking the temperature of the market, investors have no value in companies. Until the markets are able to idea if the systemic risk is being managed or if the demonstrate that they have fully integrated such risks, it situation is getting worse. Given that most investors are is clear that they will be subject to the dangers of tied to the composition of the market, it must fall to the financial instability. Given that climate change is an regulator to take action on that kind of systemic risk enormously important long-term systemic risk, as well and mandate disclosure. London has a reputation for as a massive market failure, it should surely be seen as a strong corporate governance and transparency, which key test of whether markets have adequate information that measure would maintain. and are functioning efficiently. According to the International Accounting Standards The Government have already taken an important Board, the performance of an organisation is affected first step towards giving markets some of the information by the economic resources it controls, its financial structure, they need to deal effectively with climate-associated liquidity and solvency and its capacity to adapt to risk, by introducing greenhouse gas reporting as part of changes in the environment in which it operates. Financial the disclosure requirements for large listed companies. performance is, fairly obviously, an organisation’s ability This puts emissions information alongside the material to earn a profit from the resources that have been financial data provided for the investor audience. That invested in it. It also takes into account the actual and is a useful first step, but it is important that these potential impacts on performance, viability and earnings emissions data also pass the materiality test, and are of of the activities of stakeholders and of systemic risks. use to investors. However, the current proposal is for a Requiring disclosure of the greenhouse gas emissions one-size-fits-all approach, which will not give investors potential of reserves is therefore a matter of helping information about just how exposed a company is as directors to fulfil the duty to report on what might the result of increasing constraints on carbon intensive affect the future performance of their company. Boards activities. Whether a mining company has energy efficient should be required to explain how their business model offices or an oil company reduces its business travel is compatible with future scenarios. Directors should be provides no material information for shareholders. Good required to explain what level of climate change they housekeeping by companies whose core business is are assuming in their strategy and which technologies increasing the production of billions of tonnes of coal they assume will be in place by what date. For example, and oil simply will not deliver the scale and pace of we need to know whether the management of mining change required. What investors need is a forward-looking and oil companies currently assume that the world will indicator of how the stock levels of fossil fuels compare continue on the pathway to 6° of warming. with the future market for the companies’ products—coal, Many business leaders have made statements supporting oil and gas. the 2° framework and emissions targets. They need to Therefore, I propose that the Government should explain how such a position is compatible with their demonstrate true leadership by requiring extractive current business model that includes fossil fuel assets. It companies to report the greenhouse gas emissions potential is clear that business as usual will not prevent dangerous of their reserves. I recognise that it is the Department climate change; on the contrary, it is much more likely for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs that leads on to lead to catastrophic climate change. Therefore, the greenhouse gas reporting, but I hope that the Minister Government need to create a framework that facilitates can assure me that the Department for Energy and change and protects the economy. 825 High Carbon Investment18 DECEMBER 2012 High Carbon Investment 826

This is probably a good point at which to explain the health, soundness and vulnerabilities of the financial briefly why carbon capture and storage is not the answer system as we proceed with low carbon transition. The to the challenges I have outlined. CCS would obviously Treasury will need to take a lead on much of that, but primarily be applied only to major coal and gas generation DECC has an important and key role as well. I look point sources of emission—power stations. It will have forward to hearing from the Minister about how he no impact on the oil-related emissions generated by intends to play it. transport. Furthermore, given the huge difference between the tight carbon budget and the huge fossil fuel reserves, even widespread CCS would not close the gap sufficiently. 7.56 pm If companies are using a business model based on The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate CCS, they should be required to explain clearly their Change (Mr John Hayes): I am delighted to respond to assumptions about time scales and cost. The International this debate and I congratulate the hon. Member for Energy Agency has indicated that commercially available Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing it. CCS is not likely to come in until after 2030. That leaves It seems to me that the hon. Lady’s argument is based around two decades of unmitigated emissions if business on three fundamental misassumptions, and because of continues along the current trajectory, with the carbon that much of her case is invalidated. The misassumptions budget well and truly spent before CCS can come in. are these. First, there is the notion that carbon-intensive Even at that point, it could be prohibitively expensive to industries and other parts of the economy that rely on retrofit to existing plants and CCS would primarily be them are at a peculiar and specific risk. The hon. Lady added to new facilities. Unless investors are taking a made that case—I shall put it as generously as I can—with particularly long-term view, they will not be factoring confidence. However, it would be a hard case to prove that into their assessments of a company’s value—there and she brought very little evidence apart from the is too much uncertainty. Is it realistic to expect pension letter, sent to Mervyn King, the chairman of the Financial funds, for example, to put their money behind a technology Policy Committee at the Bank of England, that she that is not yet proven commercially and which even the quoted at the beginning of her speech. industry accepts is decades away? If the future viability Let me deal specifically with that letter. The hon. of coal companies is dependent on CCS in the near Lady is right to say that it was signed by a number of future, investors should know about it. people. The Bank’s current position is that the interim DECC has developed the capital markets climate Financial Policy Committee is aware of the issue and initiative. That recognises the important role of public should the FPC conclude at any point that carbon sector action in mobilising private capital and encouraging assets do pose a systemic risk to the financial system, it new markets in low carbon investments. However, at will report and explain that risk in its six-monthly present the initiative is completely missing the other financial stability report. It has not done so at this stage, side of the equation; there is a need to change the because it has not come to the hon. Lady’s conclusion—that frameworks around the high carbon end of the spectrum there is that particular risk—on which the rest of her to drive capital towards the low carbon end. By starting argument is predicated. to address the full picture of capital markets and climate The hon. Lady’s second fundamental misassumption— change, the Government can redress the imbalance. By providing better information, the Government Caroline Lucas: Will the Minister give way? can facilitate active shareholders challenging where capital is being allocated and help secure the significant shift in Mr Hayes: I will, but I do not want to do so too investment needed to create a green, resilient and sustainable liberally; the hon. Lady will appreciate that time is short. economy. Furthermore, they can avoid picking up the otherwise inevitable tab for damage to infrastructure, Caroline Lucas: I am grateful to the Minister for property and agriculture, and consumers subject to giving way. Will he explain whether he thinks it is a increased volatility of commodity prices. Those are misassumption to state that only one fifth of known costs that neither the Government nor individuals can fossil fuel reserves can be burned and their emissions afford. released if we are to stay within the carbon budgets? DECC’s own policies, of course, should also be helping That is not predicated on any letters, but on the figures to make markets more resilient in the face of climate coming from some of the foremost climate institutes change, not less so. Yettomorrow sees the Second Reading and others. of the Government’s much anticipated Energy Bill, which creates a legal framework to lock the UK into Mr Hayes: But this is about the connection between expensive, high carbon gas generation for decades to that fact and the effect that it has on the financial come. The Bill not only runs counter to scientific advice climate in which these organisations operate, on their on the urgency of action needed to avoid irreversible stability, and on their attractiveness to investors. That is climate change and prevent devastating global warming, the myth. The hon. Lady’s argument is based not on the but omits a target to reflect the independent expert bald fact but on the connection between it and other advice of the Committee on Climate Change—that things. emissions from the power sector should be virtually The second misassumption that underpins the hon. zero by 2030. Lady’s analysis—I am afraid that I must put it this way; We will discuss that issue in the context of the Second I always try to be generous, as you know, Madam Reading of the Energy Bill tomorrow, so now is not the Deputy Speaker—is that she assumes a superior grasp, time to go into further detail. Suffice it to say that we or understanding, of the patterns of investment, the clearly need an overall impact assessment to evaluate basis on which investors operate, and the climate and 827 High Carbon Investment18 DECEMBER 2012 High Carbon Investment 828

[Mr Hayes] point about long-term contracted prices is that they lower the cost of capital and create an environment for modelling that they take into account in making these investors that is, by its nature, more certain. Not only large-scale investment decisions, than I would have the do I think all of those things, but I think, less apologetically temerity to claim. I do not want to lecture her—I say —not that I have been particularly apologetic so far—that this as a paternal bit of advice, really—but a degree of the mix of technologies that we believe is necessary to humility is required in these matters. I am by no means deliver energy security is not only a guarantee that, in wedded to the idea of the market, but I do take the view the unpredictable world that I have charted, doors will that the market has an important role to play in signalling be left open that the hon. Lady would want to shut, but to us and to the business community what investors is more likely to deliver the kind of secure, efficient and believe to be attractive and unattractive. I therefore do effective future that will allow us to be confident that not claim the kind of insight, prophetic powers and supply can meet demand in an affordable way. extraordinary understanding that the hon. Lady clearly I think there is some agreement, in general terms, on does. this subject across the House, although there will be differences of opinion with regard to detail. I do not The third misassumption on which the hon. Lady’s want to anticipate too much of tomorrow’s debate, but performance was based was her extraordinary ability, the Opposition have made some plausible arguments so it seems, to predict likely changes in the availability about demand reduction, market entry, liquidity and of technologies such as carbon capture and storage, regulation, and they will no doubt want to articulate changes in the patterns of demand for energy, and their case tomorrow. The hon. Member for Rutherglen changes in cost and price. It is true—perhaps this is and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), the shadow Minister, where we can reach a synthesis—that in acknowledging is in his place. Far be it for me to write his speech for that almost all we know about the future is what we do him, but I have no doubt that those things will be in it. not know, we cannot simply therefore take no strategic view or no long-term decisions. Indeed, the Energy Bill, In those terms, I think that the hon. Lady is not only which she mentioned, is very much about trying to take outside the mainstream, but, arguably, on the very long-term decisions. However, it is best to do so on the fringe of the debate. I do not want that to be the case, basis that those decisions are not framed around a because, as I have said, I am generous and am approaching definitive view of what is bound to occur but an the issue as paternally as I can. Dickens wrote about understanding that the creation of a highly responsive “a heart that never hardens, and a temper that never tires, and a system will allow us to deal with those things that are, touch that never hurts.” by their nature, unpredictable, or certainly so in their I do not want to hurt the hon. Lady. detail and extent. Caroline Lucas: How disappointed I am with the Therefore, for the hon. Lady to claim that “carbon Minister’s response. I base my statements on expert capture and storage is not the answer”, to use her advice from financial analysts, university academics precise words, is a pretty bold—some might say a pretty and climate experts, so his patronising response is extraordinary—claim. Of course it is true that carbon particularly misplaced. We may disagree about the precise capture and storage is still at the beginning of its time that CCS will come in, but the very fact that there journey and that it will take some time for it to reach the is uncertainty surely means that financial markets should scale that will allow it to become commercially viable. be addressing it. She knows, however, that the Government have invested in a £1 billion competition, that we are backing four On the Minister’s point that the Greens are somehow projects in that competition, and that they offer significant on the fringe, we have been told that for 30 years. We potential. She will also know, because she studies these were told that when we started talking about the ozone matters assiduously, that the taskforce we set up to look layer and about climate change, and eventually the at cost reduction for carbon capture and storage concluded other parties caught up. I hope that he catches up soon, just a fortnight or so ago in its interim report—a too, because if he does not the future looks pretty grim. considered report that I recommend to her if she has not seen it—that carbon capture and storage could Mr Hayes: The hon. Lady knows that the Committee become available and commercially viable much more on Climate Change has recognised in its recent progress quickly than she has said; it speaks of the early 2020s. I report—I know that she takes that seriously and that recommend to her the graphic illustration of that argument she will have read it—that we are on track to meet our in the document, which shows that carbon capture and first three carbon budgets, which amount to a 35% storage is not only becoming technologically proven but reduction in emissions by 2020. She knows that, as a is more widely admired than perhaps she wants, because result of the levy control framework negotiations that once one accepts that fossil fuels and their effects can be led to the bargain between the Department of Energy mitigated, the rest of her argument becomes less plausible. and Climate Change and the Treasury, we have made Those fundamental misassumptions rather colour her £7.6 billion available for investment in renewable technology, approach to these matters. carbon capture and storage and, at the back end of that period, nuclear power, which she acknowledged recently There are further problems. I challenge the idea that as salient, because it is a low carbon technology. investment in fossil fuels and the move to a low carbon economy are fundamentally incompatible, and I believe Caroline Lucas indicated dissent. that the market is better able to assess for itself how to manage its assets and investment decisions and that the Mr Hayes: The hon. Lady shakes her head, but it is, Government’s Energy Bill provides investment, clarity of course, a low carbon technology. All I am saying is and certainty. The hon. Lady will understand that the that a degree of humility in these matters is important. 829 High Carbon Investment18 DECEMBER 2012 High Carbon Investment 830

That is not patronising—far from it. It is about As I have said, in my view, ours is a balanced, acknowledging that we want a system that is robust but measured, moderate and humble approach. Before the flexible; that takes a strategic view but that does so in a hon. Lady speaks tomorrow, I hope she will think again measured way; that is balanced, not extreme. We want a about the Government’s position. system that allows investors to choose from technologies that can stand up to the kinds of tests that the market would expect. That means that the technologies need to deliver and that they need to be resilient—technologically 8.10 pm sound and commercially viable. I believe that that can be true of carbon capture and storage and of renewables, House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order as scale grows and costs fall. No. 9(7)).

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Against that backdrop, we have had the most incredible Westminster Hall news from Yorkshire. Last week, it was announced that the grand départ of the Tour de France, the world’s Tuesday 18 December 2012 largest annual sporting event will come to the north of England for the first time. The tour will wend and weave its way across Yorkshire on 5 and 6 July 2014, before [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] coming to London and going on to France. It has been the most monumental achievement to win this event. Yorkshire (Tour de France) Welcome to Yorkshire, the region’s tourism body, began Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting working on a bid to host the tour, in partnership with be now adjourned.—( Mr Syms.) Leeds city council, in 2011. The bid had fierce competition from Scotland, Barcelona, Germany, Utrecht and Florence. 9.30 am Yorkshire has had high-profile support from Mark Cavendish, Team Sky’s Ben Swift and Olympic gold Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): It is a medallist Ed Clancy, as well as three key historic Yorkshire pleasure to have secured this debate under your riders—Malcolm Elliott, Brian Robinson and Barry chairmanship, Mr Gray, particularly with your strong Hoban. links to north Yorkshire and my constituency. Without doubt, 2012 has been one of the greatest Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): On Mark Cavendish’s years in British sport. We have hosted the Olympic support for Yorkshire’s bid, does my hon. Friend agree games in London. Our Olympians achieved the best with his comment that Yorkshire medal haul since 1908—65 medals, including 29 golds. “is one of the most beautiful parts of not just England but the Super Saturday, 4 August, was undoubtedly Britain’s world”? best athletics night. My noble Fried Lord Coe described it as “the greatest day” of sport that he had ever Julian Smith: I of course agree with my hon. Friend, witnessed. It was a great Olympics for Britain and a and I hope to describe that beauty in my speech. great Olympics for Yorkshire, as we romped home with the largest number of medals for the UK. Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I congratulate the Andy Murray has become the first British man since hon. Gentleman on his timing and foresight. No sooner 1936 to win a grand slam. In golf, there was Europe’s had he secured this debate than we are able to meet here nail-biting Ryder cup win, and Rory McIlroy has had to celebrate the success of Yorkshire’s bid. The people another incredible year. There are many examples of of Leeds and everyone in Yorkshire are really looking success from across our country and our sports. Most forward to witnessing the grand départ from the centre importantly, the 2012 Paralympics were declared the of Leeds during the summer after next. Will he join me greatest ever. They have had a massive impact on the in congratulating all those—he has mentioned some of perception of disabilities in athletics and in our society them—who had the audacity and vision to make the more generally. This has been a golden year of sport: it bid in the first place? Does he share the hope of us all has produced not only brilliant results, but Olympic here that UK Sport, with the Government’s encouragement, heroes who are inspiring people, young and old, to take will now back the bid, including with a bit of cash? part in sport and engage in exercise, which is the best way to stay fit and live longer. The games have also shown that Britain is second to Julian Smith: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for none in hosting and running great sporting events. his intervention. I shall come on to the Government Sport opens doors—it did so for me as a junior squash shortly, but I want to pay tribute to his work and efforts international, and it has done so for Britain this year. It in ensuring that that effort has always been a cross-party has been the most incredible advert for our nation, one. character, values, companies and spirit. The Minister As the right hon. Gentleman says, the bid had the full was one of the few people who were behind the most backing of local authorities in Yorkshire, the police, incredible games in history. I pay tribute to the work transport companies and the whole business community. that he has done to ensure that the year 2012 will never A public campaign was launched to encourage people be forgotten in world sporting history. to show their support for the Yorkshire bid, and it has Of all the sporting achievements during this amazing received more than 170,000 pledges. We have had great year, cycling success stands out. I am told that the support from our regional media—the Yorkshire Post, atmosphere in the velodrome was electric, although I ITV, the BBC, Thomson Press and Ackrill Media. Even could get tickets only for Greco-Roman wrestling. The French President Francois Hollande backed Yorkshire’s roll-call of success could go on and on—Sir Chris Hoy, bid to host le Tour following a meeting with the Leader Victoria Pendleton and Laura Trott, to name but three, of the Opposition in Paris. and of course the man who won the BBC sports personality The Government have challenged the country to of the year on Sunday, Bradley Wiggins. He received embrace localism. Yorkshire has taken that challenge almost half a million votes, which again shows the and won the most incredible event for the UK and the popularity of cycling. It was a fitting end to 2012, north. Many people have been involved, and I again pay during which he became the first Briton to win the Tour tribute to the right hon. Member for Leeds Central de France and his fourth Olympic gold. His success has (Hilary Benn), the hon. Member for Leeds North West inspired many to get on their bikes. Cycling is well and (Greg Mulholland) and many other right hon. and hon. truly riding high: on the eve of the new year, Britain is Members and noble Members of the House of Lords at the top of its sporting game and is riding high on a who have shown their support. My hon. Friend the sea of lactic acid and adrenaline. Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) hosted 167WH Yorkshire (Tour de France)18 DECEMBER 2012 Yorkshire (Tour de France) 168WH

[Julian Smith] people watching elsewhere in the country. With millions being invested by the Government in better broadband the Paris organisers of the Tour de France, and anyone across north Yorkshire, we are creating the infrastructure who knows him will know that that was a very good to make the event a success. The Government have evening. invested in the Northern Hub, bus services and other The person who did the deal—it is important to put transport links. We are even asking our world famous this on the record—is Gary Verity, the chief executive of Yorkshire bishops to assist with the weather. Welcome to Yorkshire, with his team, and also Tom This morning at Westminster, right hon. and hon. Riordan, chief executive officer of Leeds city council. Members from across the House are forming a Yorkshire When I met Gary Verity and Christian Prudhomme, and UK Tour de France all-party parliamentary group race director of le Tour, at St Pancras earlier this year, to ensure that this place gives all the support that it can. following their whirlwind tour of many of the jewels of There are 54 MPs from Yorkshire alone, which is nearly Yorkshire, I saw how positive the chemistry and trust 10% of the House of Commons. between them was. I therefore knew several months ago that we had a good chance of getting the deal. Gary and Before the Olympic games, people often said to me, his team have delivered a great opportunity for Yorkshire, “It is great, but it won’t mean much for Yorkshire.” and have again proved that we must ensure that their Even the most hardened critic will now admit that they future and funding is secure. were wrong. I am talking about not just the feel-good factor of the games themselves or the economic boost We do not yet know exactly where the grand départ from people coming to the UK, but the lasting legacy. will be—we will find out in the coming months—but With the Tour de France win, we will see Yorkshire as one thing is certain. As my hon. Friend the Member for the centre of focus for 2014, with other parts of the UK York Outer (Julian Sturdy) has said, the Tour will travel benefiting as well. Less than two years after London through some of the most beautiful towns and villages 2012, we can look forward to another of the world’s in the land. biggest sporting events coming to this country, but this Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): I thank my time it is coming to the north. hon. Friend for securing this debate on the world’s In 2007, the Tour stages in the south-east of England biggest bike race. In 2014, its grand départ will be in were worth £88 million. Bringing the grand départ to west Yorkshire, an honour and a privilege of which we Yorkshire will be worth more than £300 million. For an are all very proud. Full details of the route will not be area of Britain that has weathered the global economic announced until next month, but does he agree that storm but is finding things tough, the event will make a challenging cycle routes—such as the UK’s longest real difference. Businesses big and small across Yorkshire gradient in the Calder valley, at Cragg vale—and the now need to be on red alert to take advantage of all the many hilltop villages around the Calder valley would be procurement and support services that will be needed. excellent venues for cyclists and would bring huge value As Members of Parliament, we will provide all the help to the local economy? that we can, and I hope that the Government will play their part. Julian Smith: I am sure that the Calder valley will be at the top of the short list for the route. From ice cream to beer, hotel rooms to office support, I regularly see cyclists from all parts of the world there will be huge opportunities, but there will broader touring through the Yorkshire dales and Nidderdale, potential to benefit, too. This is the most watched along such world-renowned routes as Greenhow hill sporting event, with more than 3.5 billion viewers worldwide. outside Pateley Bridge. We could add the starting point More than 185 countries around the world show the in Leeds—Britain’s second financial centre—the industrial Tour de France every year on 92 different television heartlands of south Yorkshire, the north Yorkshire channels, with the last hour of every stage broadcast moors, the historic cathedral cities of York and Ripon, live across western Europe. the gateway to the dales of Skipton and the coastal Yorkshire businesses that currently work abroad or roads of the east coast. From Harrogate to Selby, that would like to do so in the future should think of Keighley to Halifax, Huddersfield to Masham, the list this event as the biggest shop window there is. It will be of places the Tour could go is endless. We could host the a great advertisement to companies and people elsewhere whole thing in Yorkshire, not just the grand départ— in the world who have not heard of Yorkshire and who perhaps, though, we are getting a little ahead of ourselves. are looking for a UK base and who want to relocate in England’s largest county—God’s own—will wow the the north. It will also be good for the health of our world and provide exceptional terrain and challenge for region. We need to get out and exercise more; the the grand départ and the first two stages. With world Yorkshire Tour will vastly expand the number of bike heritage sites in Fountains abbey and Saltaire and hundreds routes and promote exercise and activity to all. of homes and attractions, we will entertain the millions Yorkshire’s legacy plans are already being discussed of visitors that we expect to receive. In addition to the and formalised. They include a bike bank, so all children big attractions, we have thousands of smaller tourism in Yorkshire have access to a bike. There will be more businesses across our region already e-mailing to say investment in cycle lanes and cycle infrastructure across that they are getting bookings for early July. Heslaker the county. There will be a cultural festival, too, celebrating farm, Yorkshire Dales Ice Cream, Theakstons and Black both cycling and Yorkshire art and culture. Yorkshire Sheep will all give a warm welcome to visitors. The Tour has so much to offer the world, and we now have stages in 2014, in Yorkshire, will be the best ever. the chance to showcase that on an unbelievable scale. We also have some of the most passionate sports fans From literary buffs to entrepreneurs and from couch in the country. When the Olympic torch passed through potatoes to exercise fanatics, le Tour has the potential to Yorkshire, we had double the national daily average of change lives. 169WH Yorkshire (Tour de France)18 DECEMBER 2012 Yorkshire (Tour de France) 170WH

We are incredibly proud and pleased to be hosting the chambers of commerce, the business community, the Tour. There will be a celebratory dinner in Leeds the trade unions and the local people, 170,000 of whom on 17 January to which the Minister has been invited. “Backed le Bid” online. There is much work to be done over the year ahead to plan the route. As I said at the start, this has been a As a Leeds MP, I am bursting with pride at the team effort. Although UK Sport may not have been thought that this world-famous event—the biggest sporting part of the Yorkshire bid, I was delighted that the event in the world—will start in our home city of Leeds. Minister for Sport promised to back it 100% if we made It is almost hard to take in. Leeds beat Florence, Barcelona it. Yes, Yorkshire has got this far on its own, but to and Edinburgh, and it was chosen because it would make the very best of the event, we need Government deliver a better grand départ 2014. That is quite remarkable. support as well. Will the Minister outline the areas in I was delighted to be asked by Welcome to Yorkshire which the Government will help? How do we get every and Leeds city council to be one of the three MP Department behind this event? How do we ensure that ambassadors, working with my colleagues, my hon. we learn everything from the Olympics and London Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon and the 2012 and transfer that to the Tour in 2014? How do we right hon. Member for Leeds Central. As has been ensure that the regional growth fund, skills funding, described, the three of us were asked to play a role in roads funding and broadband are all right behind the promoting the project here, on a political level, and to Yorkshire Tour; that UK Trade and Investment makes show that there was support from all the Yorkshire the most of inward investment opportunities and exports; MPs. The turnout in Westminster Hall today reflects and, most importantly, that UK Sport, British Cycling that support. and other bodies get behind this win financially? That is why I am delighted that we are to set up a new We want to use this event to help rebalance the all-party group, so that we MPs do everything we British economy, and we need the Government’s help to can—and not only in Yorkshire; it is important to do so. As one of Britain’s great Sports Ministers, I am remember that le grand départ will, of course, go from confident that my right hon. Friend will rise to the Yorkshire to London. I noted that the Mayor of London challenge, and I look forward to his response. I urge rightly welcomed the fact that the Tour de France’s him to meet me, the bid team and other right hon. and grand départ will have a stage in London. That is great hon. Members this week, and I look forward to his being for the capital, but he should have the grace to remember part of this great event, as he was with the Olympics, that it was Yorkshire that won that stage for London. It showing that this Government are the Government for would be appropriate for him to thank the organisers Sport. for delivering a stage of the Tour de France in London, I can already state with confidence that Yorkshire’s because it was Yorkshire that won this bid, and it won Tour de France stages will be a world-beating event. it alone. When everyone talked about a lasting Olympic legacy, this must surely be it. I thank London 2012 for setting Back in July, I went to dinner at the delightful Yorebridge the bar so high, but if it thought that the world got a house in Bainbridge to meet a legend, Brian Robinson, great reception from the capital, just wait until it gets the first British man ever to complete the Tour de the Yorkshire treatment in 2014. France—a Yorkshire man. He was also the first British man ever to win a stage of the Tour de France. His passion is still for cycling, and his drive—along with 9.47 am that of the other people who have already been mentioned—was inspiring. The scenery that people travel Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I pay through in Yorkshire really speaks for itself. For a tribute to my colleague and neighbour, my hon. Friend comparison, we might look at what the Commonwealth the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), games did for Manchester. That is precisely what we whose constituency I see every time I turn right out of believe we can achieve in Leeds and Yorkshire as a result my front door. For me, one of the great pleasures of of this event. living in Leeds North West is that it borders both the constituency of the right hon. Member for Leeds Central I am delighted to have a real cycling heritage in (Hilary Benn), where this historic event will start, and Leeds, which is a city with many cycling clubs. In my the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for constituency, there is the Otley Cycle Club; Otley has Skipton and Ripon. As he knows, when I stand on developed a reputation as a national centre for cycling Otley Chevin, which is a famous hill for cycling, and and as a famous British cycling town. Of course, that look down Wharfedale, I can see the north Yorkshire was cemented when the first British medal of London moors, the white horse of Kilburn, the Yorkshire dales, 2012 was won by Lizzie Armitstead from Otley in a the Yorkshire wolds and the Pennines—all the incredible road race. She became the first Olympic medallist ever and wonderful countryside that Yorkshire has to offer. from Otley. There is the Otley annual road race, Otley Sportive and a real sense that cycling is one of the main Friday 4 December is a special day that many of us sports of the town. will remember for a very long time. To win for Yorkshire the grand départ of the Tour de France has been an Of course, MPs today will all be getting excited about absolutely sensational coup and an incredible achievement. what the route of le grand départ might be, and whether I want to add my thanks to the team that secured it for it will go through their constituency. The organisers will our region and pay tribute to their remarkable energy, have to make the decision based on what works best for grit and passion. In particular, I thank Gary Verity of the race; that is right and proper. However, I am sure Welcome to Yorkshire and his team, and Tom Riordan, that they agree that it is really exciting to have this the chief executive of Leeds city council, and his team. I speculation, and we are all hugely excited. I have already also want to mention the support from all the councils, had e-mails from people saying where the race should 171WH Yorkshire (Tour de France)18 DECEMBER 2012 Yorkshire (Tour de France) 172WH

[Greg Mulholland] decide to say, “We think this is looking very positive, and perhaps we should now look at supporting it publicly”? be; that is the excitement that winning the bid has There are perhaps lessons there for the future. already generated in Yorkshire. That excitement will However, what is important now is to go forward. I only build as we approach 2014. urge the Minister to use his role to speak with UK I need to ask a couple of questions of the Minister, Sport. Some of its officials’ recollections of the meetings because it is important to know that this bid was won with Welcome to Yorkshire do not exactly tally with entirely by Yorkshire on its own. As I said, that was those of Welcome to Yorkshire officials, and it is important a sensational coup, and as has already been said by that we clarify that matter, so that we can find a way of Labour MPs—I am sure it will be reiterated by us using both organisations, because in the end this is a all—what we want to hear from the Minister, now that huge opportunity, as the Minister knows, for UK sport, the Tour has been won for Yorkshire and the UK, for British cycling, for the sport of cycling, and—as my including London, is that the Government, UK Sport hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon has and British Cycling will give a full and proper commitment, already said—for the economy of Yorkshire and the equalling that of the commitment that would have been UK. Of course, a lot of that is to do with legacy. Legacy made if Scotland had won the bid. has already been mentioned; it is incredibly important. I am sure that the Minister has already passed his I believe that there will be a festival of cycling for Leeds congratulations to the team from Yorkshire, and he at the time of the grand départ, which is a thrilling might suggest to the Prime Minister that he write to the prospect; there will also be the bike bank. There is a Back le Bid team about their incredible achievement. huge opportunity, and we need to put that legacy plan The Prime Minister may have done so already. I was in place now. pleased to see his tweet welcoming the successful Yorkshire I will conclude, as I know that other colleagues wish bid. As a Yorkshire MP, the Deputy Prime Minister to express their delight and add their congratulations also welcomed it in a statement. Could the Minister on this historic win. I just want to put this in perspective: share his letter of congratulations and that of the Prime this is the first year that a British man has ever won the Minister with the new all-party group, because we are internationally famous blue-riband event that is le Tour keen to see congratulations being rightly given to Yorkshire de France. It was a remarkable achievement. For a team for delivering something on its own to the UK? from Yorkshire to then secure the first ever staging of the Tour in the north of England, and only the second The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media ever staging in the UK, in the same year is a remarkable and Sport (Hugh Robertson): Let me clear that one up and historic achievement. We want to make this event straight away. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; as big a success as possible, in terms of sport, health as soon as the result of the bid was announced at the and the economy. We look forward to working very end of last week, the Prime Minister was quick to add closely with the Minister, with UK Sport and with his congratulations, and we put out a press release that British Cycling, to ensure that this incredible event afternoon, congratulating the bid team. achieves everything that it can, and that we know it will. Let me address another issue that I think one or two people have quite skilfully ducked around: financial 9.58 am assistance. We will come on to what the Government can do to assist the process in due course, but just be Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): Thank you, aware that the money—the £1.7 million—that was Mr Gray, for calling me to speak. committed to the Scotland bid is national lottery cash. It is a pleasure to take part in this debate. May I It is not within the gift of Government to allocate that congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton money directly, because that would break the additionality and Ripon (Julian Smith) on having his crystal ball to principles under which the lottery was set up, and under hand when he applied for this debate? It is great news which it has operated under successive Governments. It that one of the world’s greatest sporting events will be falls to the Government to set the general parameters. starting in our county in 2014. We were able to ask UK Sport to increase the amount of money in the major events pot, which it has done When I first heard that Yorkshire was going to bid for very successfully; now £27 million resides there. It is not the grand départ, I thought to myself, “Mais non! C’est up to the Government to allocate that funding directly. pas possible!” However, I did not reckon on the guile, the craft and the salesmanship of Welcome to Yorkshire. Everyone at our tourism body deserves credit for winning Greg Mulholland: I thank the Minister; that is very the bid. We have singled out Gary Verity, who did a helpful. I thank him again for his role in securing the fantastic job leading the bid, but I would also like to funding for the rugby league world cup, which is the mention Peter Dodd, who did a fantastic job supporting next major international sporting event on these shores. Gary along the way. They should be rightly proud of I am sure that, in his role and with his passion for sport, what they have done; they have turned a rank outsider he can assist in securing such events. However, a lot of into a winning bid, and they should be congratulated. that is about having the formal backing of the Department Welcome to Yorkshire has a history of delivering success, for Culture, Media and Sport, of the Government and winning the award for the world’s leading travel marketing of UK Sport. campaign three years running and winning the award I have one question to put gently to the Minister. for Europe’s leading travel marketing campaign twice. When it was clear that the Yorkshire bid was an absolutely They beat worldwide brands such as Expedia and Thomas superb one, and as it emerged that it had a real chance Cook, tourism organisations such as Visit London, and of success for 2014, why did DCMS and UK Sport not countries such as Spain and Denmark. 173WH Yorkshire (Tour de France)18 DECEMBER 2012 Yorkshire (Tour de France) 174WH

It was only when I met Gary, Peter and their contacts capital and the south-east. It has been suggested that from France to discuss the bid that I reckoned that Yorkshire could benefit to the tune of over £100 million, Yorkshire had a serious chance of securing it. However, and perhaps much more with the Government’s backing. I was disappointed to receive a straight bat from the As we have heard, the bid had the backing of local Government when I raised the prospect of supporting authorities, MPs from across the parties, the business Yorkshire’s bid in the House before the summer. I was a community and the area’s people, 170,000 of whom little more disappointed that UK Sport did not appear signed the bid. The legacy plans are already being to want to engage with the bid, not even with a supportive discussed. As we have heard, we are looking at delivering letter. Well, it looks like UK Sport backed the wrong a bike bank and at improved investment in cycle lanes horse. and infrastructure. I hope the Minister will take away The 5 and 6 July will be fantastic for the north of the message that, having won the bid, Yorkshire could England, and particularly for Yorkshire, as Leeds will benefit from financial support in the run-up to the host the grand départ. Two stages of the Tour will need Tour. Although no funding was forthcoming during the to go somewhere, and I hope the Amaury Sport bid, I can assure him that any help received now will Organisation, the race organiser, is listening to the produce an outstanding return on investment. debate; indeed, I am sure it is. I want briefly to make This is Yorkshire’s opportunity to welcome the world, the case for part of the Tour to come to my area. and we will do it properly. With the recent success of British riders such as Bradley Wiggins, who became the Julian Smith: In French. first Briton to win the Tour, the popularity of cycling has never been higher. I myself have recently dusted Nigel Adams: I thought about giving the whole speech down my old boneshaker, although I do not aspire to in French, but I decided, for reasons of expedience, to wear the yellow jersey. I am confident that this fantastic deliver it in English. event will inspire more people to take up cycling and Selby has a fantastic cycling history. It also has links that millions of people will cheer on the champions of with France going back more than 950 years, and I will world cycling in our great county. list a few. Members will be intrigued to hear that the town of Selby was founded by a French Benedictine 10.5 am monk—in fact, it was Benedict himself—in about 1067. The fourth son of William the Conqueror, who was Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): It is a pleasure French, of course, would go on to become King Henry to take part in the debate under your chairmanship, I, and he was born in Selby, becoming the only English-born Mr Gray. I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Norman monarch. Selby abbey’s patron saint is St Germain, for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) on securing it. I who was based in Auxerre, and evidence suggests he feel something of an intruder, as a Lincolnshire yellow visited Selby. belly, although my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), who has one foot in Julian Smith: Was St Germain a cyclist? Lincolnshire, has also come along to the debate. On being elected to the House, I never anticipated Nigel Adams: I do not believe he cycled, but the name that I would make a speech in favour of the Tour de of Garmancarr lane, which is in the village of Wistow, France passing through Lincolnshire, so this is somewhat is a corruption of Germain’s carr. As I am sure my hon. bizarre. The ideal route to get out of Yorkshire, should Friend is aware, carr means low-lying washland. The any of my colleagues wish to do so, is over the Humber lane’s name therefore suggests that St Germain held bridge. That iconic construction would make a fantastic land in the Selby area. advert for the civil engineering skills of British industry. The scientist Smithson Tennant was assisted in My hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon discovering two chemical elements in 1804 by two French mentioned that good things come out of Yorkshire, and chemists. Cochrane’s shipyard built many of the ships I have to admit that that is occasionally true, as my wife and supplied some of the barge men for the D-day is from Sheffield. In fact, she comes from a cycling landings, which made the liberation of France possible— family, and our recent research into our family history mind you, we also built the ships that helped us defeat indicates that a great or a great-great-uncle—we are still the French at Agincourt. working on it—cycled in the Olympics in the early 1920s, so there is a family connection to cycling. Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. While I am As I mentioned, the ideal route for those heading hesitant to interrupt the hon. Gentleman’s speech, which south after the delights of the Yorkshire countryside I am very much enjoying, it might help hon. Members would pass over the Humber bridge. It would then head to know that six or seven Members still hope to speak. to the winner of Britain in Bloom, and the east coast’s Therefore, it might be courteous if Members could keep premier resort, Cleethorpes. From there, the beauty of their remarks as short as they reasonably can. the Lincolnshire wolds opens up—an area of outstanding natural beauty with magnificent landscapes. The route Nigel Adams: Mais oui, Mr Gray. would then head towards the county town of Lincoln, with its magnificent cathedral high on the hill—it is Mr James Gray (in the Chair): No, not maybe—definitely. perhaps even greater, dare I suggest, than York minster. [HON.MEMBERS: “No, ‘Mais oui.’”] Ah, mais oui. Julian Sturdy: I, like my hon. Friend, will make the Nigel Adams: The Tour de France last visited the UK case for my area. York is a great, historic city, and York in 2007, when London hosted the grand départ. It is minster will make an amazing backdrop for one of the estimated that the Tour brought £90 million to the stages of the Tour de France. However, the important 175WH Yorkshire (Tour de France)18 DECEMBER 2012 Yorkshire (Tour de France) 176WH

[Julian Sturdy] Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman speaks of cycling as thing across the region is not where the stages will be he does, because it has led the way, in the context of held, but the economic benefit to the north of England how sports are viewed. Cycling was going nowhere, but and, dare I say it, the country. Even Lancashire might it has now become a fantastic competitive sport that we benefit slightly—[HON.MEMBERS: “Oh.”] I say that with do wonderfully well at, across the gamut, and people a bit of trepidation. However, the important point is the enjoy all forms of cycling. The point is well made. economic benefit the Tour will bring across the region and the country, and I urge everyone, including the Andrew Jones: I agree that cycling presents fantastic Government, to back it. opportunities to participate at an elite or social level. It is a spectacular sport for people to get involved in. The Martin Vickers: I welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention. question now is the route that the tour will take. The He knows the glories of Cleethorpes, having travelled correct answer is of course through Harrogate before there only a few months ago in support of my local heading off to Knaresborough, and then Boroughbridge party, so he can testify to the town’s magnificence. He is and various other villages. We have a great claim to be quite right to draw attention to the fact that the Tour part of the route because Harrogate and Knaresborough is a great opportunity to boost our local economies, and is one of the spiritual homes of cycling in the UK. You I urge all the agencies—tourism boards, local authorities may not realise, Mr Gray, that the Cyclists Touring and local enterprise partnerships—to get together and Club was founded in Harrogate, and a plaque in the to work closely with the Government and sporting town centre commemorates that event. It was founded organisations. This is a tremendous opportunity to give as the Bicycle Touring Club on 5 August 1878, before a much needed boost to some areas of northern England. being renamed the Cyclists Touring Club a few years If we can pull this off and get the tour to pass not later, to accommodate tricycles. Beryl Burton, who I am only through the great county of Yorkshire, but down sure hon. Members will know was five times world into Lincolnshire, that will again emphasise the closeness champion for individual pursuit, used to race for of their links. I urge the Government to co-ordinate Knaresborough. every possible agency to work on that, so that we can Cycling in Harrogate and Knaresborough has grown benefit the whole economy. almost exponentially in the past few years, with groups such as Wheel Easy leading some of that demand. I 10.10 am hope that the winning of the bid will mean that we take the opportunity to increase investment in cycling, by Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): giving it more weight in transport planning and giving I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton more encouragement to younger cyclists. We need improved and Ripon (Julian Smith) on securing the debate, so cycling facilities to be built into plans for major that we can celebrate the success. It is excellent news development—especially commercial ones and expanding that in 2014 we will welcome the grand départ into transport hubs. We have the opportunity to make a Yorkshire. It is a wonderful end to a wonderful sporting lasting difference to cycling across the county and the year. I also add my congratulations to Gary Verity and country. the Welcome to Yorkshire team, on the work they did to secure the bid. The competition for the grand départ was extremely intense. Le bid was a great piece of work. We owe The tour is one of the great sporting spectacles of the thanks and congratulations to all the team who delivered world, and it is a real coup for it to be coming to it. Let us hope that it will inspire future generations. Yorkshire. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Part of that will be the encouragement of future success Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) that we started the through participation in cycling. That will be the legacy bidding process as outsiders. I know that the tour has of this win. visited other countries for its grand départ before, but it has not been in the UK since 2007, and it will be the 10.14 am culmination of a wonderful year for cycling in the UK. The success will bring our county significant benefits in Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): It is a pleasure three areas: business, tourism and sporting opportunity. to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Gray. I pay As to business, huge numbers—predicted to be in the tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and millions—will come to watch and stage the event, which Ripon (Julian Smith) for securing the debate and for the will provide huge inward investment. For tourism the work that he and others have done on the bid. I pay opportunity is slightly longer term. I am a proud tribute, too, to Welcome to Yorkshire, which I believe is Yorkshireman and I know that we have the most beautiful the only tourism body in the UK that receives no county in the country. We are not called God’s county Government funding. It does a fantastic job for our for nothing. The landscape of Yorkshire will provide a county and region, promoting them both within the spectacular backdrop for the varied racing: great climbs UK and internationally. We have heard in the past few and sprints, and the great TV that the tour always minutes how successfully it has done that. makes, which the organisers are adept at providing. I I want to echo my colleagues’ call for the Government am sure, also, that that showcase will add to tourism to get behind this race now, because potentially it will demand well after the peloton has moved on. We also have a dramatic impact on the local economy. We have a great sporting opportunity—to encourage people certainly need that now. I look forward to welcoming to start cycling, to highlight our area for cyclists, to the race, wherever it goes in Yorkshire. However, it create more cycle routes and to show that cycling is would be wrong of me not to extol the virtues of the both good for you and fun. There are not many things beautiful East Riding of Yorkshire—and, indeed, north that that can be said about. Lincolnshire, as I have, as my hon. Friend the Member 177WH Yorkshire (Tour de France)18 DECEMBER 2012 Yorkshire (Tour de France) 178WH for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) said, a foot in both part of the event, I hope that, if not the Tour de camps. I live, however, in the East Riding of Yorkshire—not France—perhaps it should be the Tour to t’France if it that I favour either, of course. We would love a stage of is coming to Yorkshire—future events that we would the race to come to the East Riding of Yorkshire, and, hope to attract to our region could come to the Brigg indeed, within a few minutes of the announcement, I and Goole constituency. was e-mailed by people asking whether we could get the I look forward to hearing how the Minister will get race to our area. Councillors John Barrett and Caroline behind the event and get full Government support, with Fox, who represent the Snaith, Airmyn, Rawcliffe and perhaps even a bit of cash as well. Being Yorkshire folk, Marshland ward, in my constituency, put to me a we are a bit tight with our own money, so we would like detailed plan of how the route could come from Selby some from the Government. The event will be fantastic via the A19, the A645 or the A1041 down into Snaith. for our region—I think we all agree that its impact on our economy will be pretty big—and I again pay tribute Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): Does my hon. Friend to my hon. Friend for securing the debate. agree that if the riders went in that direction they would miss the opportunity to come to the Pudsey constituency? 10.20 am Despite the danger of turning the event into the Tour de Yorkshire, I must point out that they would miss the Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): It is an absolute opportunity of seeing the home of real Yorkshire fish honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I and chips, which was of course Harry Ramsden’s based congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton in Guiseley—now run excellently by Wetherby Whaler. and Ripon (Julian Smith) on securing this important debate and on being instrumental in forming the all-party group, which will massively support this exciting venture. Andrew Percy: I think, as we say in Parliament, the I add my thanks to Gary Verity, Peter Dodd and all the hon. Gentleman has made his point. team at Welcome to Yorkshire, and also to Tom Riordan. As I was saying, I received a detailed proposal about They have had amazing vision, and determination to how, coming from Selby, the race could come through win the bid, against all the odds, for Yorkshire. This Snaith into Goole. We had a fantastic day when the really is an exciting time for our part of the world. Olympic torch came to Goole. As my hon. Friend the I am not surprised by the interest shown here this Member for Skipton and Ripon mentioned, the crowds morning. There are, I think, a dozen coalition Back in Yorkshire were twice the size of those in the rest of Benchers here, and it is amazing to see so much support. the country. On the morning that we welcomed the The support and interest are not surprising, however, torch to Goole, I could not believe how many people because we all know that cycling is the new rock and had come to support the event. The race could come roll, and on Sunday evening I had a quick chat with its down and across into the beauties of the rest of the east current lead singer, Bradley Wiggins, at the BBC sports riding and over the wolds. My hon. Friend the Member personality of the year awards. I raised the prospect of for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), who cannot his cycling in Yorkshire on the Tour in 2014. I will not be here today because he is chairing the Select Committee repeat exactly what he said—we have to remember, of on Education, supports that idea. The route could then course, that he comes from Lancashire way—but he go across the Humber bridge, which is free to cycles—and indicated that he is really looking forward to cycling in £1.50 for cars. It used to be £3, but the Government Yorkshire. provided the cash to halve that, following a strong campaign by me and my hon. Friend the Member for We have a great history and heritage of cycling Cleethorpes. Then it could go across and round Scunthorpe, in Yorkshire. For example, did Members know that and back into south Yorkshire—although my hon. Friend the first British stage winner of the Tour was the did a wonderful job of trying to steal the entire race for now 82-year-old Brian Robinson from Mirfield near Lincolnshire. Huddersfield? When I announced to some people last week that the Tour de France was coming to Yorkshire, Those are a couple of proposals, but as other hon. a number of them said, “Tour de France, coming to Members have said, wherever the route goes in our Yorkshire? How can that work?”, but this will not be region, the race will be well supported and a huge the first time that it has come to the UK. The Tour has success. If it does not come to my constituency or our already visited England three times, and each time the area, we will get behind it just the same. When we put event has got bigger and better. It all started in 1974 the press releases out for the petition, several residents with one stage on the Plymouth bypass. In 1994 there contacted me to say they would sign up and get behind were two stages on the south coast and, as many Members the cause. We are all on the same page in our region on have already mentioned, the grand départ came to the matter. It is a fantastic region and everyone has London in 2007, with a time trial plus one road stage. said how beautiful it is; I do not need to repeat that. I We now have the grand départ coming to Yorkshire in thought that we were going to have a gradient argument 2014. It is estimated that Ken Livingstone invested earlier, about which area had the biggest. Sadly, I cannot £3.5 million in the 2007 bid, and London got a financial win on gradients, representing as I do the former marshland return in excess of £85 million. of Brigg and Goole, but we have a mix of wide open spaces, the coastline, rolling hills and the steep hills of Greg Mulholland: I want to reiterate a point I made the Pennines. We have got all we need to make the event earlier that ties in perfectly with that. London will once successful. again host the event, but it has not put a penny in. That I congratulate everyone behind the bid on their work. is fine, because Yorkshire won the bid, but if that is not It is staggering in many ways that it was done by an argument for Yorkshire getting some investment volunteers, and I hope we get Government support. from central Government in London, I do not know Having made a bid and a pitch for my own patch to be what is. 179WH Yorkshire (Tour de France)18 DECEMBER 2012 Yorkshire (Tour de France) 180WH

Jason McCartney: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. of London has welcomed that—this is very much When we talk about investing money, the issue is the Yorkshire’s bid and Yorkshire’s success. It is an example kind of return we will get, and that is why I made that of what sport can achieve in generating economic activity point. The event will be excellent value for money. For away from the south-east. It is an enormous opportunity each pound put in, the multiples that we can get back for Yorkshire—and the surrounding areas, as we have for the local economy and tourism will be amazing. heard—to benefit from sport and bring in business, Yorkshire could gain—we have heard this figure already tourism and economic investment. Members who have —in excess of £300 million in direct revenue, plus spoken so far have shown no shortage of determination masses of media exposure and subsequent tourism benefits. to achieve that, on the back of the bid. Some 3.6 million people in Britain watched the live Congratulations are due to Gary Verity, and to the coverage of Bradley Wiggins’ historic win on the Tour chief executive of Leeds city council, who must be this year. With more than 1,500 hours broadcast in extraordinarily pleased that his city will host the grand more than 160 countries and an estimated TV audience départ of the Tour in 2014. I welcome the fact that there of 2 billion viewers worldwide, the Tour de France has will be an all-party group, because the sporting event reached truly global proportions; that is what Yorkshire will gain enormously from Members of this House can look forward to in 2014. As well as benefits to working together to maximise the benefits that the Tour tourism resulting from spectators, teams and the whole can bring to Yorkshire and the surrounding areas. I tour entourage coming here, there will of course be the hope that the group will be based on the Tour, rather focus of the world’s media from now until 2014, and the than on Yorkshire, so that Members who want to opportunity to highlight our area as a place for cyclists participate and put their case can do so. to come to and ride in, either on their own or on organised rides. Greg Mulholland: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely We have yet to have the route confirmed, but I will right. My colleague, the hon. Member for Skipton and continue to bang the drum—as many colleagues have Ripon (Julian Smith), and I had a meeting before this this morning—for the route to sweep through my debate. As soon as the Tour details are announced on 7 constituency, the beautiful Colne Valley. We have a January, we absolutely want people from all around the gruelling gradient—the picturesque hill climb up to route to get behind the Tour being in the UK. Holme Moss on the Pennines—and TV cameras would relish the opportunity to show off that picturesque Clive Efford: I am grateful for those comments, which Pennines panorama to the world. Holme Moss has are reassuring. I assumed that that would be the case, already featured in the Tour of Britain and the Leeds and that we would all want to make the most of this classic road races. I remember standing outside the Red tremendous sporting event, which comes on the back of Lion pub in Jackson Bridge, where I lived with my not only an incredible year for British sport—I could family, watching the peloton swish past on the Tour of spend the next half hour listing the successes in British Britain in the 1990s. After the demise of the BBC’s sport in this golden year of 2012—with the Olympics “Last of the Summer Wine” TV series, which brought and Paralympics, but outstanding success for cycling. tourism to the Holme valley, this exciting and now Over the past decade, cycling has shown the way for prominent sport can help to re-energise the local tourism other sports, as regards not only how to succeed at the economy in my constituency. élite end, thereby inspiring participation at all levels, My area has booming cycling participation, helped in but how to create a base of participation at grass-roots no small way by the series of “pedal for pounds” charity level. bike rides organised by Huddersfield Town football In the Active People survey published two weeks ago, club. Last year, I joined 168 charity cyclists in raising the figures for cycling stood out because of the success £200,000 for the Yorkshire air ambulance and the in steadily increasing weekly participation over a sustained Huddersfield Town youth academy, as we cycled the period. Nearly 2 million people a week participate in 300 miles from Huddersfield to Brighton over three regular cycling activity, which is a phenomenal achievement days. This year, even more cyclists took on the challenge for cycling. Quite rightly, cycling has been recognised and cycled from Yeovil back to Huddersfield. for that achievement in Sport England’s allocation of My constituency is ready and all fired up to help to money, which was announced this week: there is to be make the 2014 Tour de France grand départ just as a substantial increase to £32 million. That allocation successful as this year’s Olympic games, if not more so, recognises that cycling can deliver. Cycling has not only and to leave a lasting legacy of participation and investment been successful in the past; the process of allocating in the local Yorkshire community and the Yorkshire money through Sport England is about what cycling economy. Vive le Tour, and vive le Yorkshire! intends to do in the future. The allocation is very much about all sports’ plans, and cycling clearly has something 10.26 am to contribute in the future, as regards increasing Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): It is a pleasure to join participation. in this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I We have heard from hon. Members about the bid for congratulate the hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon the Tour to go to Yorkshire, and part of that bid was the (Julian Smith) on securing the debate. As has been said, proposal that cycling banks be set up across the community. congratulations are due all round, including, obviously, I have been involved with a group that has got together to Yorkshire for pulling off a coup in winning the bid entirely on its own initiative. In my constituency, people from under the noses of British Cycling and UK Sport. are enthusiastic about cycling, and the group will set up I agree with the hon. Member for Leeds North West a cycling bank so that young people—indeed, people of (Greg Mulholland) that it should not be forgotten that any age—who do not have access to a bike can go although the event will end in London—and the Mayor cycling. More importantly, they are providing bikes 181WH Yorkshire (Tour de France)18 DECEMBER 2012 Yorkshire (Tour de France) 182WH adapted for people with disabilities, so that they, too, 10.36 am can enjoy the sport—sometimes with the assistance of other members of the club, cycling for them—on bikes The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media that are specially adapted to take wheelchairs. Cycling and Sport (Hugh Robertson): I start by congratulating is a growing area of sport, physical activity and community my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon participation, and I am sure that the cycling banks (Julian Smith) on securing this debate and on the played a significant part in the success of the Yorkshire way that he and other hon. Members have conducted it. bid. The debate has been quite a lot of fun, which is a very good start. Andrew Percy: The hon. Gentleman reminds me of I also welcome the formation of the all-party group, something I forgot to say in my speech. He is right that which, particularly given how things have developed, the number of young people getting involved in cycling will be incredibly important, as the hon. Member for is growing massively. A couple of days ago, I hosted a Eltham (Clive Efford) said, in bringing together disparate meeting with 11-year-olds Rory Kershaw and Ben Lapish, groups in order to make the event the success that it who have come up with a proposal for expanding the undoubtedly should be. trans-Pennine cycleway to our area. That demonstrates that many young people are passionate about cycling as I will go through the various contributions and try to a result of our recent victories. answer the questions that have been raised, but I will start with a few general remarks. I genuinely say this, Clive Efford: I am glad that I gave the hon. Gentleman and I have no worries at all: I congratulate Yorkshire that opportunity to finish his speech, and I am sure that wholeheartedly on pulling off the bid. To me it does not the young men are grateful for his comment. I say that matter whether people wish to engage with the Government in the spirit of today’s debate. and Government agencies when making bids; what I will not go through the list of colleagues who have matters is who wins at the end. I absolutely, 100% spoken, because I am sure the Minister will want to congratulate Yorkshire on a stunning triumph. I may mention every contribution. There were many questions not have helped Yorkshire very much—I think my sole for him to answer. The bid was entirely independent of contribution was nearly standing on a Yorkshire terrier UK Sport and British Cycling, and with that in mind, I on the Champs-Elysées in July—but it was clear then, sincerely hope that all parties involved can come together and in the way the bid was conducted, that Yorkshire to discuss how we can get the best for the UK out of the was on to something that others possibly had not significant, fantastic sporting event that is coming our picked up. I wholeheartedly congratulate Yorkshire on way. UK Sport has an enormous amount of experience that achievement. in organising and running major international sporting There are a number of good years for cycling in front events, and its contribution will be significant. I am sure of us, and I will come on to that, but 2014 is an that UK Sport is willing to put behind it any differences important year for this country any way with the there may have been over which preferred bid should Commonwealth games coming to Glasgow a month or have been supported, and to discuss the event with the so after the Tour de France, which will fit into the organisers to ensure that it goes forwards. I know that calendar very well. is the same for British Cycling. As many of our top British cyclists supported the Yorkshire bid, I am sure Given the comments on the Olympics, I ought to there will be a swift coming together. Regardless of congratulate Yorkshire on its contribution to London whether there was any significant difference of opinion, 2012, not only, as a number of hon. Members said, with everyone will now be moving in the same direction and the huge numbers of people who turned out to watch seeking to ensure that the event is an enormous success. the torch, but with the number of Yorkshire athletes I cannot resist referring to the intervention of the who secured medals during the competition. At the end hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), who extolled of the first week, the joke doing the rounds was that the virtues of fish and chips from his constituency; I Australia was being beaten in the medal table by both assume that they will now be known as fish and French Yorkshire and Millfield school. At that stage, looking at fries. I am sorry, but the temptation was just too great. the birthplaces of the athletes, Yorkshire was about fifth or sixth in the medal table, so it made a considerable I sincerely wish every success for the event. Every one contribution to the sporting summer, as would be expected of us will work together to make it an enormous success, from a county with such sporting tradition. and not just for Yorkshire. The event is a well deserved success for Yorkshire, and it is an enormous shop The hon. Member for Eltham touched on this, but window, as were the Olympics and Paralympics, to while we are on the subject it is worth paying tribute show off the UK. With London 2012, we successfully to the work of British Cycling. No other sport in this encouraged more visitors to come to the UK and more country combines excellence at the top end with people to consider the UK as a place to do business. A participation. The medal tally from London 2012 is survey published today by the British Council suggests extraordinarily impressive, given the dual achievement that that is one of the major successes of 2012. A major of winning the Tour and delivering medals across Olympic international sporting event on the scale of the Tour de and Paralympic sports. Sarah Storey is now the most France, starting in Yorkshire and travelling south towards decorated Paralympian in Britain’s history. Our cyclists London, will be another enormous sporting event for are an extraordinary success story. If we look at what this country, and hopefully it will be the start of an they achieved in the Olympics and the Tour, they were event that brings even more sporting success for this the predominant sport at the BBC awards on Sunday country. I am sure that all of us, working together, will night: not only did Bradley Wiggins win, of course, but achieve that success and bring benefits to the UK that David Brailsford, the performance director, picked up will be sustainable in the long term. the coach of the year award. 183WH Yorkshire (Tour de France)18 DECEMBER 2012 Yorkshire (Tour de France) 184WH

[Hugh Robertson] “staging costs of strategically important major events with a clear and demonstrable financial need. Investment will only be considered More than 2 million people cycle regularly. Dave prior to bids being submitted and investment is made at UK Brailsford told me that he thinks more than 500,000 Sport’s discretion.” people have taken up the sport since our success in That sounds as if UK Sport is saying, “Well, you’ve Beijing. As the hon. Member for Eltham correctly said, won it now; we’re not going to back it.” That cannot be that has been recognised by Sport England, which has right. It would be absurd. given a record award in the recent whole sport plans. Hugh Robertson: Let me explain it to the hon. Gentleman. On major events, it is fantastic that the Tour is It is not absurd. It is a different sort of event, because coming to Yorkshire in 2014, but Yorkshire has all sorts it is not run by the International Cycling Union, the of opportunities to star next year as well. The rugby governing body that regulates world cycling, but by a league world cup will be important to the county, and private company. That puts it on a slightly different the Ashes are here as well. I am looking at my hon. footing. I will come in a minute to what we can do Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams); to help. I cannot remember whether Headingley stadium is still The reason why UK Sport does not allow a free-for-all being redeveloped— is that if it did, people would just bid on their own and then turn around and ask Government to fund it. That Nigel Adams indicated assent. policy has remained unchanged through successive Governments since the formation of the lottery, and there are good reasons for it. The major events panel at Hugh Robertson: It is, so it has not got one of the UK Sport is full of people who understand the issues, tests. Yorkshire athletes will be involved in the world including David Collier, chief executive of the England rowing championships and the world triathlon series, and Wales Cricket Board, who knows his way around which will be held here next year, and possibly even in major sports, as the results this week show. The board the champions league final, which is due to be held at considers events, prioritises them and then sees how Wembley next year. There is a lot for Yorkshire to look much support it can give. forward to. We just launched the gold event series, which contains I will run through the points raised, dealing first with all the rules. The rules are there for good reasons, and the general ones. Can I nail a point that is taking off they have produced a record number of major events. about it being a Government decision to back the For the year 2015 alone, apart from the rugby world Scottish bid? It is not a Government decision to back cup, we have secured the world artistic gymnastics any of the bids. It is rare to have two competing bids for championships, the world canoeing championships, the a sports event from the same country. Normally, the European hockey championships, the European eventing country sorts things out itself and uses whatever bid is championships, the world rowing championships and most likely to succeed. the International Paralympic Committee world swimming championships. It is a successful and well-tuned machine. John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I Clearly, something did not go right this time around, congratulate the hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon but that does not mean that the whole system is broken. on securing this debate. It is helpful to have the Minister Moving to what the Government can do, I will absolutely confirm clearly that the Government did not back the ensure that UK Sport engages proactively with the bid Scottish bid, but if that was the case, will he now back team. It would help if the all-party group and MPs here the Yorkshire bid, and if so, how? in the Chamber took that message back. There was some indication that for commercial reasons, the bid team did not want to open up its books and show Hugh Robertson: I will come to that in a moment, but people what it was doing. Now that the bid is won, it is I want to ensure that people understand that the money time for everybody to come together and work to deliver that sits behind the backing of the bids is awarded by a successful bid. For my part, as the Minister, I will UK Sport, the lottery distributor on the Government’s ensure that UK Sport offers the necessary technical behalf. As it is lottery money, it does not lie within the support to help the work and bring British Cycling on Government’s remit to allocate it directly. To do so board. I am sure that there will be no problems worth would contravene the regulations in the National Lottery noting with that. It also backed the other bid, but we Act 2006. We can tell and have told UK Sport to will ensure that the British sporting landscape is lined increase the amount of money available—£27 million, up behind the Yorkshire bid, and we will consider what financed by the changes to lottery shares introduced can be done further. It will not happen, though, unless shortly after May 2010—but it does not lie in this or any the bid team is now prepared to share all its financial other Government’s remit to then allocate that money details and various undertakings with UK Sport. to specific projects. To do so would break the additionality principle. Julian Smith: I welcome the Minister’s offer to engage with the Yorkshire team. Can a meeting take place with Greg Mulholland: I must bring the Minister’s attention him, me and the Yorkshire team to ensure that we frame to the worrying statement published yesterday by UK things correctly for the months ahead? Sport that says, unless I have misunderstood it: Hugh Robertson: I am happy to give that undertaking, “UK Sport will consider providing Lottery funding towards subject—as Ministers always say—to sorting out the the bidding costs” diary. The beginning of next year is a pretty busy time, and and I would not want it to drift back into February or 185WH Yorkshire (Tour de France)18 DECEMBER 2012 Yorkshire (Tour de France) 186WH

March due to the difficulties of finding a spot. It would that there is little point raking this matter over now. be a great help if he and others played a part in bringing Congratulations to Yorkshire for winning. The real that together. issue is how we move forward together from here. It is a fantastic triumph; the challenge is how to take it forward from here. One thing I have learned from the Julian Smith: I agree that we should move forward 2012 process is that the successful delivery of major now. Will the Minister ask officials to clarify how many events rests largely on the strength of the partnerships people on that board, making decisions for the big created. event, come from the north, so that for the future we are getting a broad representation of our whole country? John Healey: What the Minister is saying is encouraging. I say to him and to the hon. Member for Skipton and Hugh Robertson: I could do that. Certainly, as with Ripon that he has indicated that the all-party nature of all UK Sport decisions, the home nations are represented the issue is important. On the Labour side, my hon. because it is a UK body. Under the terms in which it Friend the Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) and I was set up, there will necessarily be representation from are more than prepared to play a part in making the Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland, and there will event a success in Yorkshire and for the country. be a group of members, some of whom will be independent Hugh Robertson: I am grateful for that. We spent a lot and others who will not be, from this part of the world. of time during the autumn going around the world I am not sure that there is a lot to be gained by raking giving lectures on why London 2012 succeeded, and the over the coals in respect of where this went wrong, given first point in the lectures was the value of cross-party the special nature of this bid involving a private organisation, support. Amazingly, for a project so complex and difficult, and so on. British Cycling, which is not renowned for it held from the period before the bid, in 2003-04, right making mistakes, appears to have backed another bid through to 2012. As I often do, I pay enormous tribute because, as it told me, it could not get sight of the to the work done by the right hon. Member for Dulwich Yorkshire proposals early enough to make a decision. and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell), who played a The hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough key part. Whatever may or may not have happened in (Andrew Jones) talked about transport planning, which the bid, it is important that we move forward as one is a fascinating issue. I suspect that, looking forward a from here. couple of years from now at the extraordinary success To run through the various points raised by hon. of cycling and at the regrettably large number of people Members, I hope that I have covered most of the points still being killed in collisions, we are getting close to a mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton crossover point where there is such demand for cycling, and Ripon. It is worth having a look at the publication in terms of closing roads and running amateur races at called the “Gold Event Series”, which lays out clearly the weekend, that something pretty dramatic will have what UK Sport can and cannot do. It is a fantastic to happen. We will have to have a fairly major change of document. As I said, he should bear in mind that policy. If events such as this help to bring that about, whatever may or may not have happened on this occasion, that can only be a good thing. the team responsible for delivery in UK Sport has My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole produced a list of events coming to this country the like (Andrew Percy)spoke up for his constituency, as did my of which we have never seen. It is a high-grade operation hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason and has done well. McCartney). I think that the hon. Member for Eltham I pay tribute to the work done by the hon. Member spoke for all hon. Members in his remarks about cycling. for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) on the rugby Just to wrap it up, unless hon. Members want me league world cup, and I thank him for it. It will be a to say anything in particular, I should like genuinely to great success not only for the country but for Yorkshire. congratulate Yorkshire. I am delighted, as UK Sports He spoke about the Leeds angle and made some points Minister, that we have secured another important, about London. Now that the bid is secured, this would worthwhile major event. The team that pulled this off be an extraordinarily good time to approach the Mayor’s deserve all our congratulations. That said—I have learned office and his major events department to see precisely this through London 2012—the successful delivery of a what financial muscle can be brought to bear. sports event of any size depends on the strength of the My hunch is that the Yorkshire team must have relationships and partnerships that are created. That is presented a balanced budget for the whole event to difficult. There were times in the run-up to 2012 when secure it. In my experience, it is inconceivable that such we had to bite our lips and wanted to lash out at events are ever awarded if there are holes in the budget. somebody who was being frustrating, or we were getting So the contribution from London, which must have a bit fed up with the bureaucracy or the time it took to been covered somehow in that bid, will be important. If do something. I am afraid that that is in the DNA of there is not a London contribution thus far, I suggest successful delivery of such events. It is important that that that ought to be investigated. the all-party group in particular advocates for the strength The hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty talked about of the relationships and partnerships that will be needed UK Sport support. I hope that I have covered that. to deliver this. The evaluation of this sort of thing is done independently, The key thing is that everybody, from this point because lottery money is involved, through an organisation forward, does everything possible. I assure all hon. called the major events panel, on which people such Members in this Chamber that Government, UK Sport as David Collier sit. That panel generally makes good and British Cycling will do everything possible to ensure decisions. It was frustrated that it was not given enough that this is a great success for Yorkshire and, I hope, one access early on to make a balanced decision. I suspect of the great grand départs of the Tour de France. 187WH 18 DECEMBER 2012 Cornwall (Government Funding) 188WH

Cornwall (Government Funding) Cornwall has received European structural fund money, first, through the objective 1 programme and, more recently, through convergence. That has had an effect 10.54 am and post-2013 we will, potentially, be in line for more of that European funding, although the details will have to Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): It is a pleasure be negotiated between the Government and the European to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I am Union. That is not something that we are proud of, but delighted to see the Minister in his place and am grateful it is a stated fact that the European Union recognises for his presence. the position of Cornwall and the need for extra investment to allow it to catch up with other parts of the United My topic is funding, generally, across Departments Kingdom. The Government have also recognised that, for public services in Cornwall and investment in it. The most recently in the Chancellor’s autumn statement Duchy of Cornwall is peripheral to the rest of the announcement on investment in infrastructure. United Kingdom, although it could be argued that the rest of the United Kingdom is peripheral to Cornwall, We are delighted that the A30 at Temple will be as I would tend to, in reference to the headline about the upgraded in the next few years and that the local continent being cut off by fog. Cornwall has a proud authority are matching the money invested by Government history of independent spirit, resourcefulness and, through the Department for Transport, meaning that surprisingly to some, given its rural nature, was one of that infamous bottleneck, known by those who have the early areas in which the industrial revolution took visited Cornwall, will be dealt with. This is all to the place. Mining in particular and engineering in mining, good. However, a trend across many decades—it is not and ideas from that, were exported—as were the miners— a new phenomenon; it has been there for a long time—is around the world. People of Cornish descent are found that various public services in Cornwall have received in South Africa, south Australia and Mexico, where the less public funding than those in other parts of the links between Cornwall and parts of Mexico where country. Historically, school per pupil funding, towards silver mining was undertaken by Cornish miners have the tail end of the previous Parliament, was about recently been rekindled. Hon. Members will be delighted £300 to £350 less than the national average. to know that they can buy a pasty in those parts of We have similar problems with the grant from the Mexico, although the fillings are slightly different from Department for Communities and Local Government. those we are used to in the traditional Cornish variety. In theory, we have a fair allocation but, historically, it does not take into account rurality, which is a key The population of Cornwall is just over 500,000. The element for us across a range of services. The cost of recent census data show that people were keen to mark providing services is increased because—as you may be their Cornish identity. I am delighted that the Office for familiar with in Wiltshire, Mr Gray—the dispersed National Statistics allowed people to do that last time, populations mean that we have to replicate some services although there was no tick box, despite my best efforts. in a number of small market towns. Even though they had to know to tick “Other” and write it, more than 80,000 people, not all of whom were In policing, we ought to look at the issue of visitor in Cornwall, decided to do that. numbers, which are not taken into account in the policing formula. There have been problems in Newquay—part There is a significant population in a peripheral of my constituency in the previous Parliament, but now location that is, although the history of Cornwall is not in the neighbouring constituency of my hon. Friend the just about the rural idyll, in many cases dispersed across Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert)— the peninsula. There are challenges to providing services which receives a big influx of young people in the that are also experienced by other rural areas. Traditionally, summer. Huge steps have been taken to overcome some there has been a lot of investment and involvement in of the problems, but the costs of such initiatives are not primary resource-based industries, such as mining, fishing reflected in the policing grant. and farming, and also in engineering and manufacturing. There are still innovative manufacturers. There is now a In policing as in other areas the formula predicts that lot more food processing in the area, which seeks to add Cornwall ought to receive a certain amount of money, value to the food that is grown. The manufacturer but it does not get it, so the infamous damping process Zoeftig, a business in my constituency, makes airport comes into play. Although a distance from target is seating that is also used in bus stations, and so on, all recognised, we never quite reach it because it is too over the world, including in Australia. It was recently difficult to take away money from overfunded areas to looking at contracts in the middle east and far east. All give it to underfunded ones. Last week, my hon. Friend hon. Members should welcome the fact that a company the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) had a debate in my constituency is exporting to China. on the specific aspect of health funding in Cornwall. He pointed out that from 2006 to 2012, according Tourism is important, too. The quality of the tourist to Government figures, Cornwall was in receipt of offer has improved greatly. The food has changed beyond £201 million less than the target. The money has gone all recognition from the image of British food generally up and there has been investment, but we are still a in the 1970s. The food manufactured in and exported distance away from where we should be. from Cornwall is a strong brand and the restaurants are The funding formula is the first port of call for any one of the many reasons that people holiday there. MP looking at how his or her area is affected and at We seek to benefit from the creative industries. Investment whether it is disadvantaged in some way. The key elements, in broadband in Cornwall allows people to undertake which I have referred to in part, are worth exploring. such aspects of work far more. People relocate to Cornwall First, on deprivation, the funding formulas throughout for the quality of life, bringing their businesses and the various Departments tend to look at the high cost of creativity with them, which is all to the good. providing services to reach deeper into such communities 189WH Cornwall (Government Funding)18 DECEMBER 2012 Cornwall (Government Funding) 190WH and to support their people to achieve what they should should be. Unfortunately, such levelling-off did not be achieving and to overcome barriers. Deprivation is happen under the previous Government when money readily identified in the larger urban areas so, historically, was going in and they seemed to feel that a lot of it was Governments have tended to put money into those around, so the gap remained. Now the coalition is areas—quite rightly—to deal with their problems. In an having to deal with the deficit and to take some difficult area such as Cornwall, however, deprivation is sometimes funding decisions, so I accept that things are harder. My harder to see. People who come on holiday will see the constituents, and those in other areas of the country beautiful coast and what they imagine to be an idyllic with similar problems, expect a direction of travel according lifestyle, but they are not as familiar with the low to which funding begins to approach where the target incomes or the high housing costs, in part driven by the says we should be. large number of second homes. As the census figures I called for the debate and asked for a Treasury revealed, Cornwall is by far the local authority area Minister to respond because a number of Departments with the highest number of second homes, and that has have a similar problem. Rather than have the same a real impact on the housing market. debate several times, I was hoping to suggest to the Historically, peripherality has been an issue with Minister that, when he talks to his hon. Friends in other regard to transport costs. Although the level of aspiration Departments and has difficult discussions about the might have been low in the past, I am delighted to say amount of money available and using it efficiently to that that is changing: most Cornish families aspire get the most impact from investment in public services, hugely to see their young people do well. In many cases he should say on the issue of damping, “We are giving that means leaving Cornwall and going to do things you this money to deliver services throughout the country. elsewhere, which is fine—it is all part of the experience You have quite rightly reviewed the formula by which of growing up—but it would be good if there were you allocate that money to ensure that areas are getting opportunities for those young people to come back, what they need, what is fair and what constituents relocate and bring their skills with them. presumably feel entitled to. Also, where there is a gap The second issue is sparsity. To provide a decent level between that target and the reality, there needs to be a of service, it must be provided not only in a central, direction of travel.” Over the next few years, therefore, readily accessible location but replicated in several market we will be able to see some genuine gains for areas such towns throughout the area, adding to the cost. In as Cornwall—a bit late for the current spending review, difficult times, when the public sector must do things as but perhaps setting out progress towards the next one. efficiently as possible, it might retract a little to core The Government are making capital investment and areas and expect users to travel greater distances to there is the prospect of a little more investment through access services. Some people are in a position to travel European Union structural funds but, in addition, I those greater distances, but some are not. hope that Cornwall can aspire to get the money to The geography of Cornwall is such that on three which it is entitled for policing, local government, health sides, at three points of the compass, there is water. We and education. Flooding is another, related example, cannot call many neighbours across the border to help. which was mentioned to me by the local authority. If there is an incident or problem, we have the border Sadly, as elsewhere in the country, we have had some with Devon and that is it. Cornwall also gives support problems with flooding in Cornwall, although not in and help to the neighbouring authority of the Isles of my constituency. The Bellwin formula used by the Scilly, whose choices of where to go, what to do and Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs who to call on are even more limited than ours. Peripherality, to give extra support to local areas operates on the basis therefore, has a direct effect, such as for fire and rescue of local authorities. In an area such as ours, where we services. The delightful county of Bedfordshire, where I now have a unitary authority, we only have one allocation lived for a number of years, is centrally located and so, for the council, whereas with two-tier authorities district if there is an incident, it can call on neighbouring forces councils are involved as well, which gives those areas for help, but we cannot do that in Cornwall, other than more flexibility and more money per head of population. for help for those on the rural border with Devon. It is another example of how areas that have sought to be more efficient—unitary authorities, in times of public The first port of call for a lobbying MP is to consider spending difficulty, have undoubtedly created efficiencies— the funding formula, which is what we are doing. I have are penalised when they seek to offer maximum support been working alongside the hon. Member for Beverley to communities that have suffered tragic flooding episodes. and Holderness (Mr Stuart), the Chair of the Select Committee on Education, in his examination of the I am grateful, Mr Gray, for the opportunity to raise issue of rural funding and rurality. We have asked this matter, and I hope that the Minister can address my Government, across Departments, about what they might concerns, particularly on damping, so that we can move do to reflect better our circumstances on the ground. towards obtaining the funding to which Cornwall and We have had some success, and I am delighted that the similar areas are entitled. coalition Government have made steps in that direction, looking at school funding to deal with unfairness and at how rurality can be reflected in localisation of business 11.10 am rates. So, success, wonderful, problem solved! However, The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David we then come back to the dreadful damping business. Gauke): I am grateful for the opportunity to speak I accept that when money and investment in the again under your chairmanship, Mr Gray, and to discuss public sector are restricted, it is harder to deal with the the issues raised by my hon. Friend the Member for issue than at times of more cash being about, when one North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson). I congratulate him on can ensure that areas that are behind catch up a little securing this debate. He has been a vociferous campaigner more quickly with areas that are ahead of where they for all things Cornish—the Cornish economy, the Cornish 191WH Cornwall (Government Funding)18 DECEMBER 2012 Cornwall (Government Funding) 192WH

[Mr David Gauke] steep jumps in council tax and demands on areas with declining needs. DCLG has consulted on a new funding language and, more recently, the Cornish pasty. I am system from 2013, and the Government have indicated pleased to discuss Government funding for Cornwall that we want to move away from damping. My hon. today. Friend referred to rurality, and asked whether that is I will turn specifically to funding in my hon. Friend’s taken sufficiently into account. Again, DCLG has consulted region shortly, but first I should like to talk more on changes to the formula, and he will be aware that it generally about the way in which Government funding will publish the draft local government finance settlement is allocated throughout the UK, and to describe the for 2013-14 for consultation shortly. It will set out changes we are making to encourage growth at national funding amounts for each authority, and I am sure that and regional levels. The 2010 spending review set out my hon. Friend will be interested to read it. It will shed how the Government would carry out the UK’s deficit some new light on damping. I hope that he finds that reduction plan over four years, and included fixed helpful. departmental budgets. We protected spending on the The formula exists for a reason—to strike a balance NHS, schools, and overseas aid, and we chose to prioritise between the needs of areas with growing and declining fairness and social mobility, to focus on spending that populations—and it seeks to make an assessment that promotes long-term economic growth, to reform public strikes that balance. We will say more about that shortly. services, to shift power away from central Government to local level, and to improve value for money. Dan Rogerson: Another area that the National Audit Some of those decisions at national level will have a Office highlighted in its report on academy schools, significant impact in Cornwall. Having enjoyed a splendid particularly the early academies that were set up under holiday in my hon. Friend’s constituency a couple of the previous Government, is the generous settlement years ago, I know that tourism is of considerable importance they were given, perhaps to encourage people to take to Cornwall, although he is right to point out that its a new step. However, as the number of academies economy is much more than merely tourism; it is more has risen, there is an issue with that funding, which is diverse than that. We invested in the “Great” campaign, perhaps over-generous compared with that for maintained which was launched to deliver long-term trade and schools. The report acknowledges that gap and the need tourism benefits throughout Great Britain, and I am for convergence, and the Minister’s ministerial colleague, sure that Cornwall will benefit significantly from that. Lord Hill, talked to us about that. The issue is the The most important decisions for Cornwall have direction of travel, because the damping effect will be been those on local authority expenditure in the region—a difficult to achieve. point that my hon. Friend raised. Local authority expenditure is split between grants from central Departments, which are set in the spending review, and Mr Gauke: All I would say about that is that the localised expenditure, which is largely funded by council Department for Education is also looking at the school tax. I am sure my hon. Friend will be pleased to note funding formula in the light of some of those issues, that during the current settlement period, Cornwall’s and I am sure that Education Ministers will respond in reductions in spending power have been smaller than due course. the average in England. Spending power in the county Until now, the main local authority grant from central fell by minus 3.3% in 2011-12 and minus 2.9% in 2012-13, Departments has been a formula grant distributed by compared with an average of minus 4.5% and then DCLG through local government finance settlements. minus 3.3% for councils in England. I want to turn to In line with our priority of encouraging growth, from the point my hon. Friend raised about the damping April 2013, we will replace the current fairly complex mechanism. formula grant regime with a business rates retention scheme to help provide a stronger local growth incentive. Dan Rogerson: I did not use all the time I might have Councils that succeed in growing their local economy done, so I hope that we can continue our discussion a will have a direct boost to their coffers. Quite simply, the little further. The problem for some areas such as Cornwall rationale behind the change is that we want to give is that historically the council was run by independents individual councils, including those in Cornwall, every who took a firm view on keeping the old rates down, so opportunity to promote growth. We want them to use historically the area has low council tax, compared with their influence in planning, their investment in skills counties such as Surrey. The Government are seeking to and infrastructure, and their relationship with local limit the impact of council tax rises—they have extended businesses to create the right conditions for local economic proposals for that through the Department for Communities growth. This year’s local government finance settlement and Local Government—but our base is already low, so from April 2013 will be the first under the new arrangements. there is an impact from that as well as the central grant. The new scheme incorporates strong protections as well as incentives. There will be a safety net for places Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend raises a fair point, and that, in any year, see their income from business rates has put it on the record. I recognise that councils that fall by more than 7.5% below their baseline funding have, over many years, shown greater determination to level. Following consultation, we have strengthened the control their costs have less fat that can be cut than incentive by ensuring that the maximum levy will be other authorities where that has not been the case. capped at 50p in the pound. That will mean that at least On the damping mechanism, it is right that the 25p in every pound of growth will be retained locally, Government must balance the interests of places with and shared between billing authorities and any major growing and declining needs, and Cornwall is an area precepting authorities. Recent economic analysis, carried with growing needs. Damping has been used to avoid out by DCLG, suggests that the proposals could deliver 193WH Cornwall (Government Funding)18 DECEMBER 2012 Cornwall (Government Funding) 194WH a £10 billion boost to gross domestic product by 2020. We announced £300 million of additional investment Obviously, that figure covers the whole UK, but the in empty homes and affordable homes across England. change will, I am sure, mean real benefit in Cornwall. I know that housing is an important issue in Cornwall, Having set out how the system works and the and my hon. Friend has raised it. That announcement is improvements that we are making, I shall quickly discuss in addition to more than £150 million of planned the measures announced in this year’s autumn statement. investment to build more than 9,000 new affordable Then I shall deal specifically with Cornwall. The autumn homes in the south-west and return about 500 empty statement from my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of homes to use across the south and south-west. the Exchequer contained measures to do three things: We will invest further in flood defences—another first, to protect the economy; secondly, to promote point raised by my hon. Friend—and, significantly for growth; and thirdly, to ensure fairness. As part of that households and businesses in Cornwall, we are cancelling statement, we have had to ask all areas of Government, the fuel duty rise planned for January 2013. That will including local authorities, to go further. For most help the owners of the 3.5 million motor vehicles in the areas of Government, that means an additional top-slice south-west, saving a typical driver £40 a year and a of 1% in 2013-14 and 2% in 2014-15. However, recognising haulier £1,200 a year. However, as my hon. Friend that local authorities are already receiving a funding mentioned, that is not the only good news for motorists reduction from holding down council tax in 2013-14, in and around his constituency. The autumn statement and to support them in transforming services to meet announced a number of key infrastructure projects, one future reductions, we took the decision to exempt local of which involves the £30 million that we will contribute government from the top-slice in 2013-14. towards a 2.6 mile dualling of the single carriageway However, looking towards long-term economic stability, section of the A30 between Temple and Higher Carblake, we needed to be wary. Local government spending which will include changes to junctions. accounts for about one quarter of all public expenditure, so we have asked local government to join other Dan Rogerson: I am grateful to the Minister for Departments in absorbing the 2% cut to departmental giving way again. He is being extremely generous, as expenditure limit grants in 2014-15—that is £447 million— was the Treasury with the project that he describes, and prepare for further reductions. The savings made although I have to acknowledge that half the costs will thus far on administration, property costs and IT services be funded locally, through local authorities. That is an across Whitehall have proven that significant savings excellent example of what he was talking about earlier: can be found, and those savings will have a significant £30 million is coming from central Government and impact for the whole UK, because it was through them £30 million from local government. He also raised the that we were able to announce a number of measures issue of fuel duty. Again, I welcome the Government’s that will have positive impacts across the UK, including decision on that. I understand that they are also having in Cornwall. discussions with the European Union in relation to what it has done for islands, such as the Isles of Scilly in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Dan Rogerson: I am grateful to the Minister for St Ives (Andrew George), and whether rural parts of setting out the approach that the Treasury is taking in mainland Britain could also benefit from a further negotiation with other Departments. He is right to reduction— point out that local government is doing all that it can to achieve the targets, which are quite challenging. He Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Of 5p. refers to the potential reduction in future years of 2%. In line with the concept of fairness, which is at the heart of what the coalition is trying to do across income Dan Rogerson: A 5p reduction. That would have a levels, is the geographical issue also being considered, so huge impact, particularly on small businesses in my that those local authorities that have been more constituency. I urge the Minister to redouble his efforts disadvantaged, as he acknowledged earlier, might feel to secure that. slightly less of that pain than those that have been over-funded historically? Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is right to say that we are having further discussions with the European Commission about that. Obviously, we will update the House as soon Mr Gauke: Again, I am inclined to refer my hon. as we are able to do so. However, I do not want to leave Friend to the DCLG announcement to be made very the A30 just yet—not a comment that people often shortly on the local government formula, and the make. The scheme to which I referred, and for which I consultation that will follow. I have no doubt that he know my hon. Friend has campaigned long and hard, will look closely at that. I do not think that he will have will relieve congestion and improve journey times. It too long to wait before he has the opportunity to do so. will also attract business growth and inward investment It is worth pointing out that the difficult decisions to Cornwall by improving links to the rest of England. that we have made enable us to take a number of steps The Government welcome the commitment from Cornwall that will benefit the country as a whole, including council, to which my hon. Friend alluded, to deliver Cornwall and the rest of the south-west. For example, and part-fund the scheme on behalf of the Secretary of the further increase in the personal allowance will benefit State. Its drive in taking the scheme forward demonstrates 2.1 million people in the south-west, lifting an additional how much of a priority it is to the council and to 20,000 people out of income tax entirely; and 1.2 million Cornwall generally. Work on the scheme is set to start in pensioners will benefit from an additional £2.70 a week 2014-15, subject to the completion of planning processes increase in the state pension. The significant temporary and funding agreements, and the road is due to be increase in the annual investment allowance from £25,000 open to traffic in 2016. I am sure that it will bring real to £250,000 will help businesses across the south-west. benefits to the area. 195WH Cornwall (Government Funding) 18 DECEMBER 2012 196WH

[Mr Gauke] Welfare Reform (Disabled People and Carers) My hon. Friend may feel that my contribution took a long time to reach Cornwall, and I am sure that is a feeling that many motorists will at times sympathise [MR CHRISTOPHER CHOPE in the Chair] with. However, it is important for us to look at the national context of spending and the impacts that decisions made at that level will have in each region. I hope 2.30 pm that my comments have been useful in laying out the Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Owing to the Government’s position. interest in this debate, it will be necessary to impose a time limit on speeches. I shall decide what that will be Andrew George: I know that my hon. Friend the after the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) has Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) raised, finished his speech. while I was still in Committee, the issue of health funding and the principle of parity. Cornwall has received Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): I am happy to serve more than £200 million less over a six-year period than under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. the Government themselves have said it should receive— Today’s debate, I hope, will categorically highlight the than its target funding. I know that the Minister has unfairness of the Government’s welfare reform agenda deferred to each Department when he has answered on disabled people, their carers and families. I urge the questions on these issues, but as for his opinion, does he Department for Work and Pensions, in collaboration think that such a distance between what is allocated and with the Minister for Disabled People, the hon. Member what the Government say that a local area should get is for Wirral West (Esther McVey), to conduct a cumulative acceptable? impact assessment on the real-term effects of welfare reform on some of the most vulnerable people in our Mr Gauke: Of course, as a Government, we are society. I was urged by a number of groups to try to committed to ensuring that there is a fair funding system. secure today’s debate. The importance of the debate As a constituency MP, representing a Hertfordshire seat, and the issues within it is reflected by the number of I know that often one can look at particular areas, hon. Members present this afternoon. I am gratified, including health funding, where there are disparities and I thank my hon. Friends for coming along to between what one might expect—what one might see as support this debate. the right amount for one’s area—and the national average, and that can be deeply frustrating for Members for The Chancellor and the Prime Minister have repeatedly Parliament and for our constituents. My hon. Friend lectured us about the need for fairness and said that we the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) makes the are all in this together. However, as I hope to demonstrate case well for Cornwall. Of course, as a Government, conclusively in this debate, it is not the richest, most through all Departments, including the Treasury, we powerful or most able in our society who will pay the will look at what we can do to ensure that we have a price of the Government’s calculation and uncaring funding system that is fair. disregard, but the least able, most vulnerable and least powerful—the disabled. I am conscious of the time, so I will conclude. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North I am sure that hon. Members will have read, or at Cornwall on securing the debate, on his work in relation least heard of, the report, “The Tipping Point”, by the to the A30, and on raising the points that he has raised Hardest Hit campaign, which concluded: today. Of course, as a Government, we want to ensure “Many disabled people feel that they are living on the edge, that we have a fair funding formula, whether that be for and that the loss of even a small amount of income could tip their health, education or local government. That is something already complex lives into greater dependence and insecurity.” that we recognise across Government, including in the This summer, the Hardest Hit coalition surveyed more Treasury. On the specific issue of damping that my hon. than 4,500 disabled people on their views and experiences Friend raised, I think that more information will be of the welfare and social care systems. It also conducted available to him very shortly. a series of 50 in-depth interviews with disabled people and a poll of more than 350 independent welfare advisers. 11.29 am From the study, it discovered that disabled people and Sitting suspended. their families are struggling to make ends meet and feel increasingly nervous about the future. The Government need to act urgently to arrest the slide of disabled people into entrenched isolation and poverty. Disabled people have experienced a massive drop in income—about £500 million—since the emergency Budget of 2010. Recent reports have shown that just in the past year, cuts for typical disabled households ranged from £200 to just over £2,000. The latest estimates suggest that disabled people will experience £9 billion of cuts over the lifetime of this Parliament—half the total cuts to the welfare budget.

Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend touch on the fact that many people who are permanently disabled now have to go through 197WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 198WH Carers) Carers) assessment schemes, which cause a lot of anxiety in The cumulative effect on children could be as much their families? At the end of the day, there is a long wait as around £1,300 a year. Disabled children are losing to see what those results are and, more importantly, that sum. what the effects will be on those people and their Another major change occurring through welfare families. reform is the introduction of the personal independence payment, which will replace disability living allowance. Ian Mearns: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, The Disability Minister made a statement last week, and I will reflect on that entirely. Added to the ordinary which I thought was a little odd to say the least. She stresses of life for disabled people and their families, the said: mental anguish of not knowing the future is piling “By October 2015, we will have reassessed 560,000 claimants. pressure on to many family circles. Of those, 160,000 will get a reduced award and 170,000 will get no award, but 230,000 will get the same…support.”—[Official Report, I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the 13 December 2012; Vol. 555, c. 464.] Chamber will have heard of Pat’s petition, which closed How could the Minister or the Department have drawn last month. The petition was signed by 62,693 people, those conclusions before having done a single assessment calling on the Government to of any individual? We already know that the outcome “stop and review the cuts to benefits and services which are will be that 160,000 will get a reduced award, 170,000 falling disproportionately on disabled people, their carers and will get no award, and 230,000 will get the same sort of families”. support. I hope that I am not the only Member slightly To fully appreciate the widespread concerns and concerned that the Minister, before any assessments understand why a cumulative impact assessment is essential, have taken place, already has figures of those who will it is vital to look at the specific elements of welfare get a reduced award and those who will receive no reform that are affecting disabled people, their carers support. Surely, it is down to the assessment to determine and families. First, the introduction of universal credit, what the outcomes will be, but it seems that the Department which will replace six income-based benefits and tax has already pre-determined the outcome of the assessments credits for people of working age with a new single for each individual. benefit, will result in 2 million households seeing a drop in their income, with disabled people being among Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I congratulate those worst affected. The Department’s own equality my hon. Friend on securing this debate. The interest impact assessment from November 2011 predicted that here today shows how concerned we all are, as are the disabled households would lose £37 a week, compared people we see in our constituencies. I share my hon. with non-disabled households, which would lose £26 a Friend’s concern. I wonder whether people will simply week. Quite honestly, it almost feels that the malice be reassessed and reassessed until they no longer qualify knows no bounds, as the Government are targeting for the benefit. I want to raise the case of a constituent even disabled children—they are halving support for of mine, a terminally ill constituent— those children from £52 to £26. Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. This is an intervention. If you wish to make a speech in due Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland course, you can catch my eye, make a speech, and refer West) (Lab): My hon. Friend mentions children. I was to individual cases. recently contacted by a father in my constituency, whose daughter has severe cystic fibrosis. Her claim for disability Pat Glass: I just want to say quickly— living allowance has just been refused, and the appeal has also been refused. Given that the Government’s stated aim is to cut spending on disability payments by Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): You cannot, 20%, and that, in the north-east, where my hon. Friend because this is an intervention. I ask you to resume your is also from, Atos has been appointed to deliver the seat. If we allow interventions to be too long, it will tests for people, does he share my concern that such inevitably take time away from other people. The hon. situations will become more common in the future Gentleman introducing the debate is not in a position rather than less? to comment on individual constituency cases. Ian Mearns: Returning to “The Tipping Point” report, Ian Mearns: Alas, I fear that that is the likely outcome. it found that 84% of disabled people believe that losing their DLA would drive them into isolation and into struggling to manage their condition. Nine in 10 disabled Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I people fear that losing their DLA would be detrimental congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate to their health. about an issue that is burning hot in my constituency. Does he agree that Atos is not the problem? Although it has to administer the problem, it has been set certain Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I, too, parameters in which to work. The consequence is that congratulate, my hon. Friend on securing this important everyone blames Atos, when the Government should be debate. Many disabled people will be pleased to see it blamed for all that is happening to disabled people. happening this afternoon. Does he agree that a further concern and uncertainty about DLA is whether it will be used by local authorities in the calculation of income Ian Mearns: That is the case. We can hardly blame for determining housing benefit? While the Burnip case Atos for managing a system to its own benefit, because remains unresolved—the Government are planning to it is on a sort of performance-related pay that relates to appeal—we really do not know how much DLA people the number of assessments it makes. will have to spend on their needs. 199WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 200WH Carers) Carers) Ian Mearns: My hon. Friend makes a very important Ian Mearns: I absolutely concur with that. For people point. That is why we are asking for a cumulative who have a physical disability, the added stress that that impact assessment of all the welfare reforms, including brings can often mean that their mental health deteriorates the housing benefit reforms. and they end up suffering genuine mental illness. That is Some 65% of respondents in work stated that without no laughing matter for anyone affected by such an DLA they would not be able to work; 30% of disabled affliction. Not a week goes by when I do not get a piece people stated that without DLA their carer would not of casework because Atos has assessed one of my be able to work; and 75% of disabled people said that constituents as fit for work and the decision is somewhat losing DLA would mean that they needed more social questionable. From my perspective and that of many care support from their local authority. Cumulatively, charities and professionals, the work capability assessment we can see a great deal of worry and concern emanating is not fit for purpose and is particularly inept at assessing from the households of disabled people. people suffering from mental health problems. According to Mind, 40% of people applying for ESA The Government say that they have to cut spending, are doing so because of mental health problems, yet it but cutting DLA will simply mean that they have to found that a lot of people with mental health problems spend more money on other things. It is clearly a false are waiting for a work capability assessment. Some 87% economy. We need to take into account the knock-on of respondents said that the prospect of a reassessment and implementation costs of replacing DLA with PIP. was making them unduly anxious. More than one third The Hardest Hit coalition concludes that the Government had increased their medications as a result of anxiety, have over-estimated the total amount of savings that and 51% reported that it had made them have suicidal that will generate by, potentially, £1.6 billion. thoughts. Those data are shocking. We should not be Let us consider what is happening with contribution- vilifying the most vulnerable people in our society; they based employment and support allowance. This is affecting are contemplating taking their own lives. many of my constituents at the moment. The Government’s I am not sure whether many hon. Members have heard decision to place a time limit of 365 days on those in the of the website Calum’s List. It shows how many suicide work-related activity group for ESA and to implement deaths have been directly attributed to welfare reform that retrospectively is forcing many disabled people on by coroners. So far, there have been 24. How many more to jobseeker’s allowance. We should bear it in mind that cases are there that have not been so attributed by a there is no magic tree sprouting jobs at the moment, coroner? Surely the Minister should be looking into the particularly not in places such as the north-east of tragedies that the Government’s agenda is causing. England and particularly not with the Government’s economic plan. We talk an awful lot in the House about In my constituency, I was provided with an interesting welfare to work, but it is a two-part equation—welfare statistic by the local citizens advice bureau. In the last and work—and I am sorry to say that, in my constituency, year, it has conducted 1,416 welfare benefit appeals. Of work is hard to come by, and in the north-east of those, 1,201 were successful. That shows that of all England as a whole it is particularly hard to come by at benefit appeals that the CAB assisted Gateshead residents the moment. with in the last year, more than 80% were won. That prompts the question: why did the system fail in the first One of my constituents suffers from bronchial pulmonary place? Surely it is a complete waste of time and money. dysplasia, is too ill for a heart and lung transplant, has been on steroids for 37 years, has osteoporosis, has Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): The Government kidney failure, cannot walk a single step unaided, has a will argue that the system and the process are getting fracture in her right arm, has left arm damage, has better, but I saw a constituent the other day with a osteoarthritis and is diabetic. She was initially placed in serious brain injury whose benefits had been stopped the work-related activity group and told that she would because he did not go for his reassessment, but he did need to find work. It should be borne in mind, as I am not go because he has short and long-term memory sure hon. Members have already fathomed, that she is problems. These cases just keep on coming. Does my housebound. Only after my intervention did the hon. Friend agree that that does not fill us with confidence Department for Work and Pensions realise that a mistake for the introduction of personal independence payments? had been made. I do not want to talk extensively on the topic of Atos Ian Mearns: Unfortunately, my forecast is that, in or its assessments, because frankly I would need all day. areas such as the one that I represent, with its particular I have been sent a huge amount of information from age and disability profile, we MPs can look forward concerned constituents and lobby groups for this only to a tsunami of casework coming in our direction. debate, and I could quite easily speak for 10 hours. We need to reflect on how we will deal with that. Unfortunately, I will not have that privilege, but it is a Some figures even suggest that the work capability common occurrence in my constituency that people assessment appeals cost £50 million annually. Does the are concerned and genuinely feel harassed by the Minister really think that those assessments are effective assessment process. and cost-efficient? A lady in my constituency with significant mental health issues tried to claim disability living Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): This is a allowance but was unsuccessful, and subsequently attended very important debate. Does the hon. Gentleman agree a tribunal without representation and lost. She visited that one of the perverse outcomes of the reforms is that the local CAB for help, and it assisted her in appealing the constant reassessment is making sick people even again at the tribunal. The decision was overturned, and more ill? The financial implications, as well as the she was awarded £4,000 in backdated benefit. She also health implications, are completely negative. This system gained an extra £41 a week to live on. She reports that simply is not working. that has made such a difference to her physical and 201WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 202WH Carers) Carers) mental well-being; she no longer has to choose whether Ian Mearns: I could not agree more. I thank my hon. to “heat or eat”—a dilemma that many families with Friend for making that point; it is absolutely true. disabled people now face. Steve Cowen, the chief officer of the Gateshead We need to ensure that the assessment criteria take Carers Association—I cannot ignore it, because its proper account of the full range of barriers faced by office is next door to mine—has told me about the people with disabilities and health conditions, make the devastating impact that the proposals will have on assessment and reassessment process as simple, transparent carers and their families in Gateshead. Steve says that and proportionate as possible, and ensure that robust carers are the glue that holds the health and social care evaluation and monitoring processes are in place. system together. The reforms hit them hard, and hit Let me come on to social funds, which were designed them again and again. to help people with expenses that are difficult to meet on a low income. The centrally provided social fund has Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I congratulate been abolished and replaced with the devolution of my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Does he agree discretionary social fund emergency payments, including that the bedroom tax needs to be promoted? The crisis loans and community care grants, to local authorities. Government need to raise awareness of it sooner rather The making of those payments has been delegated to than later, so that families can budget and prepare for it. local authorities, and of course we know about the It will be a terrible shock for many. disproportionate cuts that authorities in the north-east have had to make in their mainline budgets. Ian Mearns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He is About one third of the users of crisis loans and right, but I need to make some progress, so I will move community care grants are disabled people. Localising on swiftly. that provision could have a significant impact on them, A member of a couple could have a disability that as there is no statutory duty obliging councils to provide means that the couple cannot sleep in the same room, that service or ring-fence funds for that purpose. In for entirely appropriate reasons. A couple may need an other words, local authorities can choose to use that extra room for equipment. A local authority—or a money for other purposes. Given the tight budgets that family—may have spent a considerable amount of money they are currently overseeing, there is a high likelihood adapting a property for a family who are then forced to that the money will be injected into other services. The move, which not only would be distressing and disruptive Department for Work and Pensions acknowledged that to care arrangements, but could risk a greater long-term itself in its research. cost, because the adaptations need to be replaced in the new, smaller home. It is clearly daft. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I congratulate my Cuts in disability benefits imposed by the Government hon. Friend on obtaining the debate. Does he agree that will, of course, affect disabled people living across the Jobcentre Plus in localities such as Scunthorpe is concerned whole country, but, as with almost every other aspect of about that transfer of responsibility to local authorities, the Government’s approach to public policy, the impact which are ill prepared to take on that very important is felt most keenly in areas with the greatest number of task? people living in relative poverty—the areas with the greatest need. Wales has the highest proportion of Ian Mearns: I could not agree more. My local authority disabled people in the UK, with one fifth—21%—of has shed about one third of its administrative staff. working-age people living with a disability. It also has That prompts the question: how will a local authority the highest proportion of benefit recipients for all types with such a huge cut in its capacity to deliver for its of benefits—20% of people of working age. Recent people ever be able to come to terms with the demands statistics show that just over 10% of Northern Ireland’s that will be placed on it? population are in receipt of disability living allowance. Another distressing topic at the moment for disabled people and their carers and families is, of course, the A report prepared for the DWP by Christina Beatty, bedroom tax. The reduction in housing benefit for Steve Fothergill and Deborah Platts-Fowler listed the social housing tenants whose accommodation is deemed regional differences. The 20 areas with the greatest to be too large for their needs will disproportionately proportion of working-age people receiving DLA include hit households with disabled people. Of the 670,000 Merthyr Tydfil, Neath, Blaenau Gwent, Easington, people estimated by the DWP to be under-occupying Caerphilly, Knowsley, Glasgow, and Liverpool—the list accommodation in the social rented sector, two thirds goes on. In my constituency, about 4% of people are of those affected may be disabled. Many organisations affected. Surprise, surprise, the 10 areas with the lowest such as Carers UK believe, as do I, that the policy will proportion of working-age people receiving DLA include have a detrimental impact on certain groups of carers Runnymede, South Northamptonshire, Kingston upon and many disabled people. Some families may be unable Thames, south Buckinghamshire, Windsor and to cover the shortfall and be forced to move. Maidenhead, Surrey Heath, and Wokingham. So much for “We’re all in this together.” Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ The report from the Hardest Hit coalition highlighted Co-op): Inclusion Scotland made the point to me that it the dismay felt by many disabled people on finding that is not only about financial costs. If the family of a disabled they have become the easy target for cuts. Perhaps more person moves away to get smaller accommodation—if shocking is the fact that the Government’s rhetoric it is available—they will lose support networks and justifying disability benefit cuts is hardening public contact with carers and families. If they have to move, attitudes. Many disabled people feel that the media due to the tax, they will lose those things, which they portrayal of benefit scroungers is behind the increasing need to survive. I am sure that point has been made to amount disability hate crime, which is at an all-time many other hon. Members. high. That is despite the fact that estimated overpayments 203WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 204WH Carers) Carers) [Ian Mearns] Several hon. Members rose— of DLA due to fraud make up less than 0.5% of total Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. Owing spending. As anyone who reads the Daily Mail will to the number of people who wish to participate, I shall know, there are a lot of myths in the debate about limit the time for speeches to four minutes. If there are a welfare reform, and some are very damaging to disabled lot of interventions, it may be necessary to reduce that people. We need to confront those myths head-on. They time. The wind-ups will start at 3.40 pm. are lies. Official levels of fraud in disability and out-of-work 2.58 pm benefits are far lower than public perceptions and polling suggest. The Office for National Statistics highlights Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I shall focus on the that just 0.3% of overpayments for incapacity benefit 6 million carers. I want to ensure that I have understood were due to fraud. Figures on fraud for both DLA and the legislation correctly. My approach to the detail of incapacity benefit are outstripped by the figures for Department for Work and Pensions legislation is a bit official error; in other words, mistakes by officials at the like my approach at school to algebra—I am not always DWP cost the taxpayer more than fraud. Though it is confident that I fully understand it. true that the welfare bill grew in 10 years, disability Am I right to think that carer’s allowance will continue benefits were not the main cause of that expenditure or to exist as a separate benefit outside universal credit? a ballooning welfare budget. Will universal credit awards include a carer element, Disabled people feel that they have been deliberately which will continue for as long as the carer provides targeted, even though there is a clear alternative. Although care for at least 35 hours a week to a severely disabled estimates vary, tax evasion and avoidance cost the person? Am I right to think that, within universal Government between £50 billion and £100 billion a credit, claimants will qualify for a “limited capability year. It is estimated that a mansion tax on expensive for work” element or a carer element—not both—but properties, above a threshold of £2 million, would affect households will still be able to get a “limited capability an estimated 74,000 people and, at face value, raise £1.7 for work” element for one member and the carer element billion. A financial transaction tax of about 0.05% on for another? transactions such as those involving stocks, bonds, foreign It will be helpful if the Minister explained to us currency and derivatives is possible. The bank levy all—perhaps in writing or in answer to a parliamentary introduced in January 2011 raises £2.5 billion annually, question—what, for the purposes of legislation, constitutes but a Robin Hood tax could raise up to 10 times that a “household”. Some of the misunderstandings or amount—£20 billion a year. confusions arise from how a household is defined. As I Whatever one’s view of the trade-offs, the priority understand it, some households will have an increased should be the need to protect the poorest. In October earnings disregard to reflect their different needs. Carers 2010, the Prime Minister promised always to look after will not be a specified group that is entitled to an the sick, the vulnerable and elderly. The Chancellor said increased disregard, but it is expected that a majority of in his June 2010 emergency Budget: them will benefit from income disregard because of “Too often, when countries undertake major consolidations…it other family circumstances, including the maximum is the poorest—those who had least to do with the cause of the disregard of £7,000 if they live in a household with a economic misfortunes—who are hit hardest. Perhaps that” disabled partner. Does that apply only to households in has been which there is a disabled partner, or to those in which any other relation is disabled? As the Minister will be “a mistake that our country has made in the past. This coalition Government will be different.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2010; aware, there are concerns about households with, for Vol. 512, c. 180.] example, adult disabled children. Really? Exemption from the benefit cap will be extended to households that include a member who is in receipt of There are practical things that the Government can the personal independence payment. Some households do over the next year. The first is to learn from the in receipt of DLA will be exempt from the benefit cap; mistakes of the work capability assessments and ensure for example, if a carer’s partner is in receipt of it, the that the assessment for personal independence payments household will be exempt from the cap. Are such households is as fair as possible. Secondly, they could review the only those in which there is a disabled partner or all work capability assessment, starting with the WCA households in which there is a carer? Will the Minister descriptors, to ensure that it works consistently and clarify that, or write to me if I have misunderstood? fairly for all individuals with limited capability for work or work-related activity. Thirdly, they could get the Mrs Hodgson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? fundamentals of universal credit right, ensuring that disabled people do not lose in cash terms due to the transition to universal credit from 2013. Fourthly, and Sir Tony Baldry: I will not. most importantly, as loth as I am to implore the As I understand it, carer’s allowance will be linked to Government to do anything, I implore them to conduct receipt of either rate of the daily living component of a thorough cumulative impact assessment on the impact PIP. Is that correct? Obviously, it is important to ensure of all welfare reforms on disabled people, their carers that people caring for those with greatest needs get the and families. When the Government collect the results, appropriate level of support, and disabled people clearly they must act on them, so that no one is left floundering face extra costs. Am I right in thinking that households in unnecessarily deprived circumstances because of a receiving DLA, PIP or the support component of the Welfare Reform Act, the results of which were all too employment and support allowance will and should be easy to predict. exempt from the benefit cap? Have I got that right? 205WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 206WH Carers) Carers) Will housing benefit regulations recognise that some to PIP.The economy is already depressed, with 6.4 million people need an additional room for an overnight carer people lacking the paid work that they want, and 1.4 million who lives elsewhere? To go back to the exchanges in the people in part-time work who want full-time work, main Chamber earlier this week, am I right that significantly which is the highest figure in 20 years. We have already adapted accommodation will receive additional heard about the increase in living costs, with people discretionary housing payments funding of some £30 having to choose between eating and heating, and cuts million from 2013-14 to cover that group and foster to local services—more than half my local council’s carers, and that local authorities will have a fair amount budget is being attacked—and social care. Those will of discretion about how that is applied? have short-term effects on disabled people, but we must Universal credit should provide support for carers also bear in mind evidence about the impacts on life and improve their opportunities to maintain links with, expectancy and the exacerbation of existing health and get back into, the world of work. inequalities. The cuts in motability allowance are just one example of how disabled people are being affected. Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. I will finish now, Mr Chope, but you can see the scale of the issue. 3.2 pm 3.6 pm Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab): I rise to speak on behalf of the many constituents Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): It is a coming into my office every week who are affected by pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. this Government’s welfare reforms. At every opportunity, I congratulate the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian we need to challenge the ideology underpinning those Mearns) on securing this debate. reforms and the disastrous economic policies that are It is important to discuss the Welfare Reform Act wreaking devastation and havoc on ordinary people’s 2012, but a lot that has already been said in this debate lives. That ideology is about dividing and ruling—pitting makes for unhappy listening. The campaigns that exist the public sector versus the private sector, so-called about the effects of the Government’s welfare reforms shirkers versus workers and the able-bodied versus the on disabled people have led to an outbreak of fear- disabled. mongering and panic. It was important to have this I am not alone in being deeply offended by not only debate to put a balanced argument on the record, so the content of the Chancellor’s autumn statement and that people understand that the Government are doing its further hit on welfare recipients, but the characterisation all they can for disabled people and their families in a of people receiving benefits. Terms such as “scrounger”, harsh economic climate. “shirker” and “workshy” are used deliberately to vilify The recent Welfare Reform Act was an attempt to people on benefits as the new undeserving poor. The help disabled people and their families. I welcome the issue for this Government, as in relation to so much of fact that, in recognition of the additional needs that what they are doing, is that that is just not true. Most disability brings, all households with somebody who is people on benefits are in work and are net contributors receiving disability living allowance or constant attendance to the Exchequer. allowance will be exempt from the cap. The recent study by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the New Policy Institute on research monitoring Kate Green: It is not absolutely correct that all households poverty has shown that 6.1 million people are in poverty with somebody in receipt of disability living allowance in working households, which is 1 million fewer than will be exempt. If there is an adult non-dependent child the number of workless households in poverty. There is in receipt of DLA in the household, that exemption will no evidence of a culture of worklessness. Evidence from not apply to the main household. the Institute for Fiscal Studies has shown that the autumn statement will affect the 10% poorest in our Sheryll Murray: The hon. Lady is obviously going country, who will have the biggest percentage drop in along the fear-mongering route, and perhaps the Minister their income. I am relatively new to politics, but I think will address that. The exemption will be extended to that that is an absolutely disgraceful misrepresentation include a person in receipt of a personal independence of the facts—not only on welfare, as we have seen in the payment, which will replace DLA for individuals of past, but on the economy and the NHS too. This working age from April 2013. country deserves better. The current system has its faults. One of my constituents I am proud of our model of social welfare and its has applied for DLA, because he is partially sighted and historical roots. It was borne out of world war two, his sight is deteriorating rapidly. Medical records that during which we were all in it together. I want to retain were used in determining whether he was eligible for that model, which is underpinned by inclusion, support DLA were out of date, despite his ophthalmologist and security for all, so protecting us in case the worlds having issued up-to-date information more than once. of any of us fall through and assuring the dignity and My constituent was refused DLA, but he is appealing. I basics of life. Those basic securities are going, and the hope that, under the new system, he will receive what he dignity and respect that all people should be afforded is needs, and that any appeals can be dealt with promptly often sadly lacking. and in a way that assists and protects those in need. I want to highlight the effects of welfare reforms on Another constituent was so poorly that my senior disabled people and their families and carers. The context caseworker had to go to his home to help him fill out his of those reforms has already been mentioned, but I ESA and DLA forms. I want the Government to assure want to emphasise the effects of the proposed cuts—the me that the application process will be accessible for the 1%—in out-of-work benefits and the change from DLA most vulnerable in our society and that there will be 207WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 208WH Carers) Carers) [Sheryll Murray] Mrs Hodgson: I just want to add that Carers UK estimates that 10,000 carers could lose their carer’s help for those who have difficulty with any application. allowance as a result of the changes to DLA. Does my I will continue to fight for constituents who are not hon. Friend think that that is a disgrace? getting the benefits they need because of their disability. I am determined not to let the most vulnerable in our Grahame M. Morris: It is outrageous. Local authorities society suffer at the hands of bureaucracy. There were are struggling to balance their budgets. I thank Easington issues with the system as it stood, but I hope the Welfare carers for the information they have provided to me. Reform Act will address them. It does a wide range of The number of carers’ centres across my county is going things, such as reducing the culture of welfare dependency down from five to one, and carers report severe cuts in for those who can work. It has the intention of protecting services, with many now being run using volunteers. So, and helping the disabled, and I look forward to the yes, the issue is a huge concern, and carers are the Minister’s comments. unsung heroes of the community in many respects. I will have to curtail my remarks, but there is absolutely no doubt that the Prime Minister’s rhetoric about being 3.10 pm led by the views of disabled groups does not hold water. A number of surveys have been carried out, and a Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): This is the commission led by Paralympic gold medallist Baroness first time I have served under your chairmanship, Mr Tanni Grey-Thompson found that 450,000 disabled Chope. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for people and their families could lose up to £58 a week Gateshead (Ian Mearns) on securing this timely and under the coalition’s universal credit reform—cuts so important debate. The number of Opposition Members deep that one in 10 disabled households with children here is testament to the importance of this subject. It is fear they may lose their homes, with many struggling to excellent that they have come along to express concerns pay for basic essentials such as food and heating. on behalf of their communities and of disabled people, who are up in arms. There is no doubt the cuts are taking money from people who are already struggling, and disabled people I would like to challenge the hon. Member for South are twice as likely to live in poverty as other citizens. I East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), who suggested that call on the Government urgently to review the impact of Labour Members were somehow scaremongering about their welfare reforms on those who are most in need. the scale and impact of the cuts. For the record, I have done a little research on my area, County Durham, and the impact is absolutely huge: changes to ESA will 3.15 pm affect 26,000 people there. The Government’s 20% reduction Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I in DLA funding and the predicted escalation in the case congratulate the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) load will cost County Durham £12.83 million. In my on securing the debate. constituency alone, £2.76 million of support for disabled people will be withdrawn as the migration to PIP occurs. One group of carers I have particular concerns about Overall, County Durham is predicted to lose £11.59 is the parents of disabled adults who provide care and million a year in income just from changes to tax support for their sons and daughters at home. In the credits. We could contrast that with what is happening short time available, I want to focus on a couple of in some of the more affluent parts of the country, such stories from my constituency that highlight not only the as the royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea, which shortcomings of the work capability assessments, but is predicted to lose just £1.7 million. If we break the the long-term impacts of caring on families’ income figures down according to population, we find that levels and on the health of carers. The big challenge is £77.22 is lost per working-age person in County Durham, how to make the home situation sustainable for people compared with £17 in Kensington and Chelsea. That who are very much the backbone of our community has huge implications for the local economy. care system. My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead mentioned It is important and relevant to point out that the Chancellor, who said: Aberdeenshire was part of the pilot that introduced the new assessment scheme. We are therefore somewhat “Too often, when countries undertake major consolidations of this kind, it is the poorest—those who had least to do with the ahead of the curve in the implementation of the changes, cause of the economic misfortunes—who are hit hardest.” and we are perhaps starting to see the impacts ahead of other parts of the country. He suggested that that was The first family I want to talk about have a severely “a mistake that our country has made in the past. This coalition Government will be different.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2010; disabled son with a range of complex learning and Vol. 512, c. 180.] physical disabilities. It is clear from his assessments that he will never be expected to work, and he will need However, if we examine what has happened since the support all his life. However, he can walk without the emergency Budget in June 2010, we find that disabled use of aids—he cannot walk far, but he can nevertheless people and their carers have experienced a major drop walk—so his mobility needs have recently been downgraded, in their income of £500 million. There is a huge credibility which has had significant consequences for his family. gap between the Government’s rhetoric and the practical Initially, the most serious was that he lost the gateway implications of their policy on the ground. services that the council provided, which gave him access According to the Scope-Demos report “Destination and transport to a day centre. I intervened in the case, Unknown”, Britain’s 3.6 million disabled people in and we have managed to get that decision rolled back, receipt of disability benefits will have become £9 billion but the loss of part of my constituent’s mobility allowance worse off between 2010 and the end of this Parliament. has put a significant strain on his working parents, who 209WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 210WH Carers) Carers) juggle their working lives and shifts around his mobility I have not yet dared tell my constituent that almost requirements. They now have to use public transport in certainly she will in due course lose severe disability a rural area where services are not regular, and that is premium, which she currently gets because she is in highly inappropriate, given their son’s medical condition, receipt of income support and has no carer in the because they need to get him to regular hospital household. That, doubtless, is still to come, but I do not appointments in Aberdeen. That situation is not sustainable, want to make her too fearful. The things that she does and I am left wondering how long those parents will be know about are happening already. They are not a myth able to continue to care for their son at home. They have being created by us or the disability movement. made it clear they do not want him in residential care, but they are also clear that the situation they are in is When people become ill they experience a fantastic simply not sustainable. The Government really need to loss of income anyway, and an increase in costs. The address that issue. Government appear to be oblivious to that. If a couple have been working—one full-time and one part-time—and The other family I want to talk about have been very the one who worked full-time suffers a stroke and must unlucky in the health lottery. Until recently, the mother give up work, they go down to half an income and ESA. received ESA for her own health problems. She looks At the end of a year, if the person in question ends up in after a severely disabled husband, who is a bit older and the ESA work-related activity group, their income falls who is basically housebound. She also looks after a again: the ESA will be lost because it is contributory; disabled daughter, who is a wheelchair user with other, they will not qualify for the non-contributory version—even complicating health conditions. It is difficult in a short though they have worked and paid in all their lives they debate such as this to assess the extent to which the will not get that—so their income will go down to that mother’s health problems have been compounded and of a part-time employee. Again, there are ripple effects exacerbated by that long-term caring. However, she and cumulative effects on people at a time when they now receives £29 a week because she has exhausted her are incurring greater costs. Someone who is at home entitlement to contributory benefits, and she must, as it more than they were when they went to work will have were, live off her disabled relatives, although she has a increased fuel and transport costs to meet. The person small occupational pension from earlier in her life, who is ill and has a disability may always have been the when she was able to work. The family are trying hard driver for the household, so there will be taxi and to live with dignity in tough economic circumstances. increased public transport costs. People in that position They have not asked to be unhealthy; they have had to already have a substantial reduction in income. deal for a long time—well over 30 years—with a child who has severe disabilities and who has needed a lot of I am glad that the Minister realised that the initial care and attention. plans for rolling out DLA into PIP were totally unrealistic, The impact on such families, the strain on social and that the time scale has been extended, but there will services and the long-term implications for our health still be clear losers. Our accounts are not scare stories. care service and for residential care provision are significant. The information comes from the Government’s figures: At a human and a social level, the system needs to 170,000 people, on reassessment, will lose DLA altogether address and support the needs of carers, and particularly before October 2015. That is a lot of people. That, those who are caring for an indefinite period. apparently, is reality in the Government’s terms. I ask the Minister please to agree to a cumulative impact assessment. 3.19 pm Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): It is a pleasure 3.23 pm to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the on securing the debate. hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) on bringing the matter to the House. I thank him, because it is one I am going to pre-empt the Minister, because I expect that is close to my heart, for two reasons. The first is her to say in reply to the debate, as she keeps saying, personal, because my brother, Keith, had an accident in “You”—not meaning any of us personally, but the which he received serious brain injuries. He had many Opposition—“did not have a cumulative impact assessment years of rehabilitation, and although it did not mean he when you were in power.” However, I cannot think of a could lead the independent life he once had, he can have time when so many things have been happening some sort of independent life, because of his carers and simultaneously. The roll-out of incapacity benefit to my parents. My parents give as much help as they can, ESA is still going on. We will have the change from but my mother is 81 and my father is 83, so they will be disability living allowance to personal independence able to give less and less help. There will be greater payment. We have housing benefit changes and universal emphasis on the NHS and what it does through carers, credit. The reason we want a cumulative impact assessment but also on the DLA award that helps Keith to have is that what is happening is unprecedented. We need to carers in the house on a more permanent basis. He relies know what will happen to people like my constituent on the award to pay for the help he needs. If that were to who is 59 and has lived in her home for 30 years; she has change—I hope that the Minister is taking this on severe back and hip problems and has just received a board—his quality of life would change dramatically. letter telling her she will lose housing benefit in April He would have to go to a health facility elsewhere. unless she can find somewhere to move to. Currently her grandchildren stay over for part of the week, which Is my brother the only person in my constituency to helps her family out. If she cannot do that any more, it whom that has happened? Of course not: there are will have an impact on their living and working hundreds—indeed, thousands—who fit into that category. arrangements. A ripple effect happens. All over the country people have made me aware of 211WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 212WH Carers) Carers) [Jim Shannon] 3.27 pm Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ that. Some of the hon. Members present for the debate Co-op): At a recent AGM of Hackney carers association, attended Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson’s inquiry. In carers raised concerns with me about many things. One her report she has said that was the carers allowance, which is only £55.50 a week. “230,000 severely disabled people who do not have another adult I want to ask the Minister to comment on the proposal to assist them could receive between £28 and £58 a week less”. by some bodies that that should be increased. Many Also, carers in my constituency have been on low incomes for “100,000 disabled children stand to lose up to £28 a week” long periods of their lives already. It is not as if they and 116,000 disabled people who work risk losing up to have reserves to fall back on. £40 per week from payments towards additional costs I wanted to touch on the general issue of disabled of being disabled. Clearly, those figures cannot be ignored. households typically being poorer, often because disability Those are the facts of the case and that is how things has meant being able to work less over time. Many will happen. A recent newspaper comment said: carers have had to give up jobs to care. I am a former “DLA helps disabled people to manage some of their own care working carer, and I cared for two disabled adults. needs; without this support, they could increasingly rely on Annie, who sadly died in October, went to live with her family members.” sister, who was also a working carer. The Minister needs Yes, that is so if the family members are alive and to understand that the pressure on carers is immense. accessible. If not, that cannot happen. As many hon. Members have mentioned, the cumulative Other hon. Members have mentioned Carers UK and impact of many changes can be very complicated. the Hardest Hit survey. Three in 10 disabled people When I cared for two disabled adults, at one point I stated that without DLA their care would not work. dealt with 13 different agencies just to get the basics of The figures are clear. Family carers provide an unmatched care, support and medical support in place. Happily for service in the United Kingdom, saving the Government me, at that time we were not dealing with many changes millions upon millions of pounds each year. The in the benefit system. I am not saying it was all perfect, Government must address care-in-the-home needs. There but it was at least a stable system. All the changes is only so much that families can do and while we are coming hard on the heels of one another add stress to trying to save money care in the community cannot carers who must navigate through the system in addition bear the brunt, but that is what is happening. Private to all the other challenges of being a carer. We live in a care companies are under pressure and have less money world now where people should be able to work and available to them. That means that elderly people are care, but we make it more difficult for them to do it. living in unfit conditions, and much more is required of When I was a working carer my husband’s cousin was a their carers. carer for her sister. We worked because we had to—to Many young and single-parent families find it very pay bills and pay for our families. There was no option difficult to cope. Young mothers try their best to do for us. Many people have taken the option of not without the absent father, but they cannot juggle taking working, and that has considerably reduced their household care of the home as well as looking after children with income. attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. There are many I want to touch briefly on the work done by Contact in that situation in my constituency, and that will be a Family in my constituency, and ask the Minister to true of the constituencies of many other hon. Members. comment on the disability addition under universal Those mothers have particular problems, trying to hold credit, which seems to cut the weekly tax credit for down a job of 16 to 20 hours a week to qualify for help, families with a disabled child from £57 to £28. The and they are under tremendous strain, which in turn issues for families with children are immense. If we do leads to breakdowns in their health. Voluntary sector not get this right now, it says bad things about what our groups used to fill the gap, and sometimes they can, but society wants to do for disabled people. Those families mostly they cannot. Such a mother is under pressure, want to ensure that their children have the best start in worried about DLA and the effect on her son, and life to increase their chances of independent living later about her increasing child care costs. Those problems on. Without proper support in the early stages, families multiply. I want to make a quick mention of Home-Start, can break down under the immense pressure. As we a charity at home in my constituency and many others, know, many marriages struggle under the strain of which does marvellous work and can look after a child coping with a disabled child. I urge the Minister to for a year for £422. Where else could anyone get that? comment on that point and to look more widely at the In conclusion, there is a degree of penny wise, pound work of organisations such as Contact a Family, which, foolish about what is happening—saving money in the by the way, is quite supportive of some of the Government short term, while in the long term there will be no changes, but has some particular points that I urge the saving. Worse, in the long term families will be pulled Minister to consider. apart, disabled people will be isolated and the community 3.30 pm will not function as it could, all because the big picture was not looked at. I urge the Minister to rethink the Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It is a pleasure reform at this stage, consider its impact on individual to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I congratulate lives, and put in place an efficiency package that saves my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) money without doing it at the expense of decent quality on securing this important debate. There can be no of life. doubt that the UK Government’s programme of welfare reform will have a devastating impact on the incomes Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): I will reduce the and well-being of thousands of disabled people in Scotland time limit to three minutes now. and the rest of the UK. 213WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 214WH Carers) Carers) One common theme runs across the many different On the housing benefit cap, it seems clear that around types of benefits, and that is that “reform” means “cuts 5,000 households that will be capped in 2013-14 are in income”, and disabled people are among the most expected to contain a carer. Those carers will see an badly affected. Next year, disabled people will feel the average reduction in income of £105 a week. That is effects of even more stringent cuts. According to the quite clearly at odds with the Government’s stated impact assessment of the Tory-led coalition, the policy for the cap. Government expect 500,000 people to lose PIP by 2015-16, Around 1 million carers have either given up work or compared with what would have happened under DLA. reduced their working hours in order to care. An average The reality is that the Government are trying to mould drop in income of £105 per week is a cruel way to treat a benefit around these cuts, rather than around the carers who have given up their careers. It could also be needs of individual disabled people. counter-productive, in that it could make caring for a A Citizens Advice report in Scotland has estimated family member financially untenable and force more that the replacement of the disability living allowance people into taking up the option of care homes or with personal independence payments will require 225,000 residential homes. working-age DLA claimants in Scotland to undergo an Many carers already face financial hardship. A survey assessment, with some 75,000 in danger of losing their of carers by Carers UK found that 45% of them were entitlement. Capability Scotland notes that all PIP claimants, cutting back on essentials such as heating or food, and including four in 10 were in debt as a result of caring. Carers are “those with complex learning disabilities, severely visually impaired not choosing to give up work, but being forced into people, double amputees and deaf people” doing so by the crisis in social care. Carers UK found in will be assessed by an independent medical officer. a survey that 31% of working age carers gave up work To reduce the number of claimants, everyone on or reduced their working hours to care because support DLA will have an Atos test. Where do I start with Atos? services were not flexible enough, the person for whom Many people fear the Atos test, and with good reason. they cared did not qualify for support, there were no In fact, my constituents believe that Atos stands for suitable services in the area, or the services were too “another Tory oppressive system”. I tell them that that expensive or not reliable enough. There is not time now is not the case, because that would be letting off the Lib to go through how care charges have gone up. Dems too lightly. We are told that 40% of Atos test In an earlier debate on social care, I talked about the decisions were wrong and have been overturned on impact of financial issues on the lives of carers. I have appeal. In my constituency of Inverclyde, the percentage heard of one carer who had to take on a part-time is significantly higher; something like 60% of cases are cleaning job in the early evening because money was so overturned. I know that colleagues have had many tight. She puts her husband to bed at 4pm so that he is frightened and worried constituents contact them about safe while she is at work. That is the reality. the medical assessment process. The UK Government plan to halve tax credits for Grahame M. Morris: Does my hon. Friend agree that disabled children. The carers, too, will be hit hard. it is a case not just of money—pounds and pence—but Welfare cuts will push families caring for ill or disabled of the dignity of disabled people? relatives to crisis point. As the financial pressure on carers grows, there is the increasing risk that they will be Barbara Keeley: Indeed it is. The House of Commons unable to continue to care for their loved ones. has received reports that criticise care agencies for putting We have a Government who, while slashing the welfare people to bed at 6 o’clock or 8 o’clock. This carer has to budget, provide a £40,000 tax break for millionaires. put her husband to bed at 4 o’clock. How must that feel The Government’s Welfare Reform Act 2012 crosses the to her? I have had further evidence that shows that that basic line of decency. is not an isolated example. It is very common for carers who can no longer afford respite care to have to leave a 3.33 pm person, perhaps wearing an incontinence pad, and hope Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I that they will be safe in a chair while the carer has a congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead hospital appointment or goes to work. (Ian Mearns) on securing this debate and on the way in I question whether anyone here believes that it is right which he opened it. In the little time I have, I want to or fair to hit carers with further cuts to their income focus on the carers of people with disabilities. when changes already made by this Government are Carers’ organisations have told me that they fear that clearly hitting them. The manager of my local carers the welfare reform measures proposed by this Government centre in Salford told me that, this Christmas, the will seriously undermine the ability of carers to care for centre’s staff are collecting and distributing food parcels people with disabilities and for older family members. to carers. That is something that they have not had to On the reform of the disability living allowance, the do since the 1980s. She said, “This does not bode well.” Government’s original impact assessment said: It does not, and it should not be happening to carers, “We expect that the introduction of Personal Independence who already give so much. I call on the Minister for a Payment will not affect the overall size of the Carer’s Allowance rethink on welfare reform for carers. population”, but analysis by Carers UK shows that there will 3.37 pm undoubtedly be a knock-on effect on those who claim carer’s allowance. If the number of claimants of the John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): allowance falls, as it moves to PIP, in line with the Sometimes our role as MPs is to bear witness, so it is caseload for DLA, Carers UK estimate that 23,800 important that the words spoken by people with disabilities carers will be unable to claim carer’s allowance. and their carers are put on the record. Professor Peter 215WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 216WH Carers) Carers) [John McDonnell] Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order.

Beresford of Brunel university, working as the chair of 3.40 pm Shaping Our Lives, the national disabled people’s and service users’ organisation network, undertook a massive Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Thank you very survey of people with disabilities and their carers. The much, Mr Chope, for calling me to speak. It is a Spartacus report was published earlier this year, and pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. has now been revamped. I just want to quote a few brief I thank the many Members who have made a statements from people with disabilities. This is one contribution to this debate, and indeed I also thank the person’s family member: many Members who sat here in Westminster Hall but “John is so severely disabled he has to wear nappies and is fed did not speak; they did not make a contribution but through a tube. He is blind and deaf, cannot speak, suffers wanted to show their support for my hon. Friend the frequent seizures and requires 24-hour care. But he has now been Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), who promoted told by a Government decision maker that he is ‘capable of work’ today’s debate very successfully. — and that he is no longer entitled to benefits. Family members have contacted officials who say that an appeal against the I have to say, in passing, that rarely have I seen a decision will have to be lodged.” Government Minister so ill-supported by people on her What happens when those appeals take place? Let me side. Frankly, she is supported more by the number of quote a person with a disability: officials with her than by Back Benchers. “It’s like doing a crime. I am a human being who needs I also thank the many organisations that have given additional support but here I am facing a panel who are making a us briefings, and indeed would probably have given decision on my life. I am tired of fighting officials who seem to briefings to many MPs from all parties. They include think they know more about my disabilities and needs than I do. Scope, the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign, the British It now makes me feel ashamed of who I am. I am being punished Medical Association, the Disabled People Against Cuts, for being disabled and feel powerless.” the Hardest Hit campaign, Rethink, Action for Children, What happens in the assessment itself? Here is a quote Disability Rights UK, Mind, Pat’s Petition, the Gateshead from a wife: Carers Association and the Gateshead Citizens Advice “I can honestly say there are lies that go into that assessment. I Bureau, which of course are in the constituency of my do shorthand and I took down word for word my husband’s hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, Carers UK, whole assessment. What actually came back was practically the and the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux. opposite of everything he said.” Many Members have commented on the Chancellor’s Let me quote another claimant: statement of 22 June 2010, in which he said that the “They are now ordering claimants (and their companions) to Government would not grind the poorest into the ground. surrender any notes they have taken during the interview. Before Frankly, what a difference two years has made. This is the assessment even began, both I and my companion were the same Chancellor who is now looking for more cuts warned that we had to first agree first to hand over our notes at from the Department for Work and Pensions. As many the end of the assessment. We were told that the notes would be colleagues have said, there are many hidden costs to photocopied and stored on a database. I was told that the penalty for refusing to agree to this condition was the immediate termination being disabled, which do not always compute. of the assessment.” Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Does my right The implicit warning was that they would lose benefits. hon. Friend agree that one of the costs that has not What happens in the administration of these benefits? been mentioned today is the additional cost of child I will give another example. The client’s husband is in care for a child with a disability, the benefit for which is hospital in a coma. He was sent an ESA50 form. The being reduced under universal credit? client contacted the Department for Work and Pensions to explain the situation, and was asked to obtain a letter Mrs McGuire: Yes, and because of the width of the from the hospital confirming that the client’s husband spectrum of impact that we are having to deal with, it was in a coma. The client did so, and sent it to Atos has been very difficult to highlight every particular rather than the local benefit disability centre. The client aspect of that impact. I thank my hon. Friend for was then sent a letter saying that they had failed to raising that issue. return the appropriate form and the client’s husband There is a hidden accumulation of disadvantages that was no longer entitled to the benefit. this Government have consistently tried to hide, in the Let me save the final words for Karen Sherlock, 44. face of the evidence that has been presented to them She was put in a work-related activity group. She was over the past two years by some of the organisations required to attend interviews. She suffered from a whole that I referred to. range of conditions. Her husband Nigel said it was a The Minister told me last week in response to my disgrace that she was refused benefits. Last year, she lost question about a cumulative impact assessment—I think the long process of appeal against the decision. In April this was mentioned earlier by my hon. Friend the Member 2012, as a result of the time-limiting of employment for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore)—that there had and support allowance to one year, she lost her benefits. never been a cumulative impact assessment under Labour, She won her appeal a few weeks later and was finally as if that somehow absolved her from undertaking a put in the support group. She died eight days later, on 8 cumulative impact assessment. I find that an astonishing June. answer, because no Government—neither Conservative Read the Spartacus report. It gives example after nor Labour—have ever launched such a torrent of example of the inhumane treatment of people with changes, with such a speed of change, in the way that disabilities and their families. It shames any Government this Government have done in tackling the support that to treat people in this way. we give to disabled people. No Government have done 217WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 218WH Carers) Carers) that before. I worked with disabled people during the benefit cap. The Government have now had to admit premiership of Baroness Thatcher, and frankly I have that an adult disabled person will be assessed as being in never seen anything like this—never. a different household from their parents’ household. According to the figures, disabled people have dropped Before the Minister says to me, “That’s always been at least a massive £500 million in income since that the way; when an adult reaches the age of maturity, or emergency Budget statement two years ago, when the the age at which they can receive benefits in their own Chancellor said that he would not be breaking the right, they are a separate household”, I accept that is backs of the poorest in our society. The cuts to the true, but what we never did—indeed, what no Government incomes of disabled households go up to more than ever did before—was decouple a carer’s allowance from £2,000 a year; they vary, depending on individual the disabled person whom it is intended to help. That is circumstances. what this Government are doing. We can see what the impact of those cuts is. There has I say to the Minister in all honesty that if this been the imposition of the 12-month rule on employment Government are so sure that what they are doing is and support allowance, a benefit that is intended to right, and that, as the hon. Member for South East support people who are too ill or too disabled to work. Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) said, they have the best The Government were so stubborn that they would not intentions as regards disabled people, why in heaven’s even accept an Opposition proposal to extend ESA to name will they not carry out a cumulative impact two years, to give people the opportunity either to assessment? I have said this to the Minister and to the adapt to a long-term disability or to receive the treatment previous Minister, who is now the Secretary of State for that they needed to take them out of illness. That Culture, Media and Sport: it is surely not beyond the change is underpinned by a flawed work capability wit of the best brains in the DWP to come up with a assessment, which states that disabled people are ready cumulative impact assessment that will prove either the for work when they are palpably not ready; we have Government’s case or ours. heard examples of that today. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead that we should not just attack Atos. There are issues to 3.48 pm do with Atos and the professionalism with which it is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work conducting some of the assessments, but we should pin and Pensions (Esther McVey): It is a pleasure to serve the responsibility on the Ministers who are supposed to under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I thank the hon. be managing the Atos contract. If it is not the Ministers Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) for securing this who are responsible—as is the way with this debate on such an important issue, and I welcome all Government—then there will be a civil servant somewhere contributions to the debate about how our welfare who will have to accept some responsibility. reforms will better support disabled people, their carers We have an appeals service that is logjammed, and and their families. many people, after months of uncertainty, find that The UK has a proud history of furthering the rights their benefits are restored. Sometimes that happens—this of disabled people and I am pleased to say that, even in shows the bizarre economics of this situation—after these very tough economic times, the Government continue they have had their Motability car repossessed; several to spend around £50 billion a year on disabled people months later, they find that they are to get it back again. and their services, to enable those who face the greatest What sort of economics is that? barriers to participate fully in society. That compares Although I welcomed some of the mitigation, or well internationally. We spend almost double the OECD easement, that the Minister announced in the changes average, as a percentage of our gross domestic product, to the personal independence payment, there are still with only Norway and Iceland out of the 34 OECD many descriptors that are causing concern. I appreciate countries spending more, and we spend a fifth more that the Minister only has a few minutes to respond to than the European average. More money will be spent the debate, but perhaps she will share with us details of on disability living allowance and the personal independence where the new descriptors in activity 12 come from. It payment in every year up to 2015-16 than was spent in looks as though the 12 points needed for the enhanced 2009-10. mobility rate can be achieved solely by people who have We are world leaders in dealing with people with only a physical impairment and who are not able to disabilities, but we should not be complacent, because stand or move more than 20 metres. Perhaps she can tell disabled people are not a static group and we have to the House how many people will lose access to their support them every which way we can. Some 3.2 million Motability vehicles as a result of this further tightening disabled people are on DLA and, over a year, the of the gateway. I point out to her that even in the 1970s impairments of a third of them will change. Some disabled people qualified for those little blue single-seater people might get worse, and some will stay the same, cars if they were able to move more than 20 metres, but some will improve and get better and will no longer aided or unaided. Talk about back to the future. get the benefit as they will not be entitled to it. We will, From April next year, families with disabled children however, support those who need support, or more will receive £1,300 less than they would receive under support. The Government are committed to enabling the current system. It is estimated that about 450,000 disabled people to fulfil their potential and play a full families will lose out under universal credit. Until the part in society, but money needs to be targeted more last couple of weeks, the Government gave the distinct effectively to ensure that support continues to be impression—this was a clever dodge—that if a carer available to those who need it most, that there is a was in the same household as a disabled adult child, lasting impact, and that interventions provide a fair their carer’s allowance would not be included in the deal for the taxpayer. 219WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 220WH Carers) Carers) [Esther McVey] Barbara Keeley: The Minister is right to comment on carers, but does she see how deeply unfair it is to apply Nearly half of disabled people are in work. Only 9% the benefit cap to them? They will lose £105 a week. of working-age disabled people, and only 5% of those This stuff about households and the way in which they over the age of 25, have never worked. If we want to are defined is just nonsense; 5,000 carers should not make a sustainable difference, we must do all we can to lose out. help more disabled people who can work to get into mainstream employment, and support them to stay in Esther McVey: I will explain to the hon. Lady why the work. We know that many disabled people want to changes have to be brought about. At the moment, work but feel that the risk of losing their benefits is too there are 1 million spare bedrooms, 250,000 households great. By simplifying the benefits system and ensuring living in overcrowded conditions and 1.8 million households that work pays, universal credit will remove the financial on the waiting list, so we have a size criterion in the risks involved in taking the first steps back into employment, private sector, and we must get this right. We have to and will increase the incentives of working, even if that support people. We have to work with what we have, work is for just a few hours a week. Universal credit will and we will introduce the changes because we have to provide unconditional support to disabled people who get this right—it has not been right, and the previous are not expected to do any work. Government left it to get into this predicament. Disability living allowance is an outdated benefit that has not been fundamentally reformed since it was Barbara Keeley rose— introduced in 1992, and both sides of the House agreed that a change was needed. The reforms present an Esther McVey: I will not give way. opportunity to start afresh, keeping the best elements of Work must always pay more than benefits, and that is DLA that disabled people value, but bringing the benefit why we are introducing the cap on the amount of up to date and making it fit for the 21st century. benefits that working-age people can receive. It is not reasonable or fair that people out of work can get an Debbie Abrahams: Does the Minister think that articles income from benefits that is greater than the average 19 and 20 of the United Nations convention on the weekly wage for working households. We understand, rights of persons with disabilities are compromised by however, that disabled people face extra costs, and that what the Government are doing in, for example, removing is why we are exempting from the cap households the Motability allowance from about 500,000 people? receiving DLA, PIP or the support component of the employment and support allowance. Esther McVey: Of course we do not believe that the rights of disabled people are compromised. As I said at It is fair that the benefits system should support the start of my speech, we aim to strengthen and people in public housing in the same way as it does support them in every way we can. those in private housing, but we have made changes to the housing benefit regulations, in recognition of the The personal independence payment will be easier to fact that some people need an additional room for an understand and administer, and will be financially overnight carer who lives elsewhere. We have also listened sustainable and more objective—the payment has not to concerns about disabled people living in significantly been so to date. It will be better targeted at those in adapted accommodation, and have announced additional most need. Throughout the development of the payment, discretionary housing payment funding of £30 million we have consulted widely with disabled people and have for 2013-14, to cover both that group and foster carers. used their views to inform policy design. It has taken more than two years of intense consultation, of listening Instead of simply cutting money from everyone, we and of working to adjust the criteria and the assessment, chose the more difficult but principled option of to get it right. We listened to people’s concerns about modernising the benefit and focusing support where it the speed of reassessments and, as I announced last is needed most. PIP will be awarded on the basis of fair, week, we will now carry out a slower reassessment consistent and objective assessments, and such assessments timetable to ensure that we get it right. The peak period are not in place at the moment. The assessments have of reassessments will not start until October 2015. taken two years to develop. We consulted with disabled Furthermore, the Government confirmed in last week’s people and made key changes as we received their autumn statement that disability benefits will continue feedback. to be uprated in line with inflation. Although they are different assessments that will Carers provide an invaluable service to some of the work in different ways, we have learned from the experiences most vulnerable people in our communities, and we of the work capability assessment—something that the want to ensure that they continue to get the support Opposition brought in—and we had to introduce Professor they need. We have committed to linking carer’s allowance Harrington, who produced recommendations that we to receipt of either rate of the daily living component of are still working through, to get this right. That will PIP, which is an important safeguard for carers. Our enable us more accurately and consistently to ensure earlier analysis indicated that the link to PIP would that support is targeted at those who face the greatest result in broadly the same number of carers being barriers to leading independent lives. More than a fifth entitled to carer’s allowance, even though there would of PIP recipients will get both of the highest rates, be some churn between those who are newly entitled worth £134.40 a week, compared with only 16% of and others losing entitlement. Now that we have finalised those who are on DLA at the moment. the PIP assessment criteria we are, of course, considering that, and our objective remains to ensure that people Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I thank the Minister caring for those with the greatest need get the right level for giving way when time is so short. I have listened of support. carefully to everything she has said, and what I do not 221WH Welfare Reform (Disabled People and 18 DECEMBER 2012 222WH Carers) understand, at the end of it, is this: why will disabled Votes for 16 and 17-year-olds people be financially worse off, when she says that everything in the garden is rosy? I truly do not understand 4pm how she can say that, when every day on which we have a surgery we face people coming in to say how they are Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): I am grateful suffering under the Government’s policies. I do not for the opportunity to discuss this important issue, and understand— I thank you, Mr Chope, for allowing me to open the debate, in which I will call for the voting age to be Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): That is enough. lowered to 16. It is a pleasure to do so under your chairmanship. Esther McVey: Once universal credit has been introduced, I am grateful to be granted this debate and to initiate many disabled families will receive more support than discussion about an issue that many people across the they do now, with the higher rate of support for all country are currently considering. As Members know, disabled children who are registered blind, for example. the Scottish Government recently announced that, in Households with one or more disabled adults will keep the upcoming referendum of autumn 2014, 16 and up to £647 a month—some £7,000 a year—of their 17-year-olds will be able to take part in the ballot. That earnings before seeing any reduction. Universal credit decision to lower the voting age will enfranchise 8.2% of also offers a more flexible system for people whose the UK’s 16 and 17-year-olds. The decision has reignited condition and ability to work fluctuate. No one whose the issue of votes at 16 at a national level. circumstances remain the same will lose out in cash With that in mind, it seems the right time to reconsider terms as a direct result of the move to universal credit—there lowering the voting age to 16 in all elections and referendums will be protection. held in the UK. It would be wrong to send the message As we have talked about the cumulative impact, I will that it is right for some of the UK’s 16 and 17-year-olds say that we have published impact assessments on reforms to be deemed capable of voting while others are not. In to workplace pensions, the child support regulations, July 2012, the devolved Welsh Assembly, in a debate on automatic enrolment, PIP, universal credit and the benefit the issue, voted on a motion expressing support for cap—the list continues. Labour embarked on a number lowering the voting age to 16 that had cross-party of reforms, including moving from incapacity benefit to support. employment and support allowance, the introduction of The Minister will know that constitutional reform, local housing, and changes for lone parents, on which including lowering the voting age, is not devolved and, no cumulative impact assessments were done, as the therefore, the responsibility for making that happen still hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and rests with the UK Government. For the sake of a more the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) said. equal, inclusive political system across the whole UK, It would have been far simpler to do a cumulative the Government and the Electoral Commission must impact assessment, but because of the shift and the fact consider extending the right to vote to 16 and 17-year-olds that the measures will not be in place until 2017-18 we across the country. With recent developments, this seems have taken the advice that such an assessment would the opportune time to start revisiting the issue. not be possible in its entirety. These are principled reforms, and we should all be proud that we are delivering In our society, we rightly demand respect from young them. people and often require them to act and behave like adults. At the same time, however, society should respect young people’s views and aspirations.

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the hon. Lady agree that allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to vote would enable engagement with younger people, by allowing the House to hear what they want us to do for them?

Julie Elliott: I could not agree more with that valuable point, which I will address. Some 16 and 17-year-olds hold positions of great responsibility and already contribute much to our society, and they should be given the opportunity to influence key decisions that directly affect their lives and communities. We should ensure that they and their issues are represented. In law, as a society, we already allow 16 and 17-year-olds to give full consent to medical treatment, to leave school and enter work or training, to pay income tax and national insurance, to obtain tax credits and welfare benefits in their own right, to consent to sexual relationships, to get married or enter a civil partnership, to change their name by deed poll, to become a director of a company, to join the armed forces and to become a member of a trade union or co-operative society. Granting them the vote would align their responsibilities with their rights as citizens. Surely, it cannot be right that we ask a young man or woman to serve their country 223WH Votes for 16 and 17-year-olds18 DECEMBER 2012 Votes for 16 and 17-year-olds 224WH

[Julie Elliott] in debates. More than 250,000 young people aged between 11 and 18 years old voted for the issues they wanted to bravely by joining the armed forces without recognising see debated, which is a huge increase on the 65,000 their contribution or giving them the choice to influence votes the previous year. Those young people, representing their future in return. their peers and their equivalent constituencies, did There is an old American saying: no taxation without themselves proud. They were an inspiration to watch representation. As a citizen benefiting from this country, and could give some of us a run for our money. 16 and 17-year-olds are expected to pay tax yet, by Since the introduction of citizenship classes, that rise being excluded from the right to vote, they have no say in democratic processes among young people is far on how that money is spent. With rights come from unusual. Across the country, thousands of 16 and responsibilities, but it should work both ways: with 17-year-olds are coming together to engage in direct responsibilities should come rights. democracy and to encourage community participation Across the country, 16 and 17-year-olds are and leadership. In the last academic year, more than demonstrating that they can make such complex decisions 590,000 young people voted in youth elections, and 85% and take on wide-ranging responsibilities. They are of young people now go to a school with a school actively showing, in practice, their willingness to make a council that works with staff to make positive improvements positive difference and contribution to our society. We to the school. We might also note that both the Labour should give them the chance to make a difference by party and the Conservative party give their members empowering them further through recognising their the right to vote for the leader of their political party right to influence decisions that will affect their future. from the age of 15. That is also reflected in public opinion. In a recent poll A generation of 16 and 17-year-olds are emerging carried out by The Daily Telegraph, 53% of the population from the education system well equipped to understand, said that they are in favour of lowering the voting age engage and participate in democracy. Every 16-year-old to 16. receiving school education will have completed citizenship I pay tribute to the fantastic work of the Votes at classes, so they know and understand the principles of 16 coalition on promoting and raising awareness of the democracy. We would, of course, hope that lowering the issue. The coalition is made up of more than voting age will further their interest in politics. Turnouts 70 organisations, including the British Youth Council, are already low among young people in our elections. the Children’s Rights Alliance for England, the Trades Engaging them earlier in the process would, I hope, Union Congress, the Co-operative and the National raise participation, thereby helping to raise turnouts in Union of Students. elections. Lowering the voting age to 16 would further encourage Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): At a recent meeting youth democratic engagement. There are more than 1.5 of the all-party parliamentary group on youth affairs, million 16 and 17-year-olds in this country. where the issue was debated, a small number of the As the Member of Parliament for Sunderland Central, young people present did not believe that they should I often visit schools in my constituency to talk to have the vote at 16, but the main reason that they gave students and young people about my job and what it was that young people do not have enough knowledge. means to represent them. The 16 and 17-year-olds I Does my hon. Friend agree that if they do not have the have met on such visits have shown that they are knowledge at 16, when they have left education, they knowledgeable and interested in the world around them— will be no more knowledgeable at 18? Giving them the from the Arab spring in the middle east and the effects vote would put much more onus on people to teach of climate change to youth provisions in their own young people about politics at an earlier age. neighbourhoods. They are also passionate people: passionate to learn more and to participate. They have Julie Elliott: I could not agree more. If having enough demonstrated to me that they are more than capable of knowledge to understand what one is voting about were engaging with the democratic system, as much as any a prerequisite, it would rule out many people. other citizen. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): My hon. Friend is Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Does my making a clear case. As somebody who has spent pretty hon. Friend agree that one of the problems that we have much all my working life with 16 and 17-year-olds, and in this country is voter turnout? When I was elected, who has worked for the past two years with Members of turnout was 65% of those on the electoral register; in Parliament, I must say that 16 and 17-year-olds have as the first election in the area in which I voted, turnout much to say and as much stake in things as we do. was 83%. That is one of the important reasons, as sixth-form students at Ysgol Dinas Brân, who put me Julie Elliott: Absolutely, and they often say it with through my paces at election time, reminded me. much more passion and punch than we do. Young people of 16 and 17 know and understand the principles Julie Elliott: Anything we can do to encourage people of democracy. We hope that lowering the voting age to participate is a good thing for our democratic process. would further increase their interest in politics. Election Some 16 and 17-year-olds have carried out their own turnouts among young people are already low. We research into the issue and have ended up lobbying me would raise participation. on my visits about their right to vote. Last month, we Many countries have already granted their young saw members of the Youth Parliament take to our usual people the right to vote, albeit with some conditions, seats in the House of Commons. More than 300 members including the Isle of Man, Austria, Brazil, Germany from across the UK, elected by their peers, participated and Norway. The Council of Europe’s Parliamentary 225WH Votes for 16 and 17-year-olds18 DECEMBER 2012 Votes for 16 and 17-year-olds 226WH

Assembly has also urged the Committee of Ministers to reflect a divergence of opinion in wider society; I simply encourage member states to reconsider the age-related do not think that there is an open-and-shut case for us restrictions placed on voting rights, to encourage young to discuss. people’s participation in political life. I shall tackle head-on the comments about my right It seems to me that there is a strong case for giving 16 hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister. He has made and 17-year-olds the right to vote. I will therefore clear on several occasions his personal view that he discuss briefly what I would like to see happen to would like votes at 16, and that is the view of his party. progress the issue. I believe that the Government should His views are shared by many not only in his party but consider improving citizenship education for young people, across the House. For my own part and that of the to be followed by a free vote in Parliament on reducing Conservative party, I happen to disagree. I have yet to the voting age to 16. Indeed, the Labour party pledged be convinced by the evidence available, although I look to do so in our 2010 manifesto. forward to drawing it out somewhat in the few minutes I entirely support citizenship classes, but I believe available to me. I am far from alone in suggesting that that they could be improved yet further. I would like to position. The most recent research that I am aware of, see the Government commission a report on how best which I shall come to in a second, backs that up in that to improve and expand citizenship education to raise it shows that people remain to be convinced of the standards, with the intention of making parliamentary merits of the case. time available to debate it. I would then like to see a On the points made by Members, the Votes at 16 commitment to providing a free vote in Parliament on coalition circulated a briefing to all hon. Members lowering the voting age to 16. before this debate that clearly set out a range of arguments I recently tabled some parliamentary questions to the in favour of lowering the voting age to 16: 16-year-olds Deputy Prime Minister about what representations had can leave school, get a job and pay tax on their earnings, been received on the issue and what research had been marry and join the armed forces. The last point gives commissioned recently. I was disappointed to be informed me cause to dwell on the list for a second. It can be done in the answer from the Cabinet Office that no recent only with parental consent, and Ministry of Defence research has been undertaken or commissioned and policy is that no one under 18 will take part in combat. that there is no consensus within the Government for The situation is by no means as straightforward as a lowering the voting age to 16. simple reading out of the list of ages would suggest. I remind the Minister that the Liberal Democrats made a commitment in their 2010 manifesto to introduce Wayne David: Will the Minister explain the Government’s voting rights from the age of 16. I hope that she will thinking? If they accept that 16 and 17-year-olds can consider my arguments for lowering the voting age and vote in the referendum on Scottish independence, why for commissioning research into the matter. can 16 and 17-year-olds not vote in elections more generally? What is the difference? Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): My hon. Friend mentioned that there was no commitment in the Miss Smith: The hon. Gentleman is as mischievous as Conservative party’s manifesto or the coalition agreement, ever. He knows very well that, in the case that he has but that has not stopped the coalition from coming just cited, it is the desire of the Scottish Government forward with ideas that were not part of the agreement. that that should be the franchise for the referendum. Surely, it could do so here. The Government of who I am a part is led by the Prime Minister, who signed an agreement with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Scotland that we shall Julie Elliott: That is a good point. enable a referendum to take place for Scotland. That is Lowering the voting age to 16 will inspire young quite a different thing, and it remains UK Government people to get involved in our democracy and extend the policy that the franchise should be for those 18 years rights due to them. Our 16 and 17-year-olds are ready old and over. and willing to participate in our democratic system. The next step is surely to grant votes at 16, which would empower young people to engage better in society and Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Does the influence the decisions that will affect their future. Minister not feel that there might be some dangers in conceding as the Government have done in Scotland—in a way that might not be as well controlled as if the 4.14 pm Electoral Commission had had full control—rather than doing so properly for the country as a whole? That The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss would have been the right way to proceed. Chloe Smith): I congratulate and thank the hon. Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) for securing this Miss Smith: The UK Government’s view is that many debate and for her considered remarks. I also thank things would be better if we were to stay together as a other colleagues for their contributions. United Kingdom. That might be one of the many It falls to me to respond to some of the questions that questions that should be raised in the next two years of she raised, and I am happy to do so. I start by noting the campaign. However, the hon. Lady raises a wise what has already been noted: Parliament has taken no point in the context of the debate. The Scottish Government fixed view over time on the question whether the voting have sought that franchise and Westminster has agreed age should be lowered to 16. Many Members hold a memorandum of understanding enabling them to do diverging views on both ends of the spectrum, often so, but there is no consensus within the UK Government passionately. It is fair to say that those differences on the age of franchise overall. 227WH Votes for 16 and 17-year-olds18 DECEMBER 2012 Votes for 16 and 17-year-olds 228WH

[Miss Chloe Smith] 14 to 25-year-olds—some on either side of the grouping— 54% are against, 31% are for and 15% do not know. The hon. Member for Sunderland Central rightly Those figures should provoke enough thought to cause spoke of the many things that society seeks to enable us to stop and consider not only the range of views, but 16-year-olds to do, but I wish to balance that by noting the high number of those who do not know, which is a the many things that society and Parliament do not matter that we might discuss. believe that 16 and 17-year-olds should yet be able to do. They include smoking, buying alcohol, placing a The hon. Lady mentioned turnout, as did the hon. bet, standing for election and serving on a jury. The fact Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones). We all is that there is no standard age of majority in the want higher turnout and greater participation in the United Kingdom and no single point at which one electoral process, but a relevant fact here is that, since moves from being a child to being an adult. That may the 1997 election, turnout among 18 to 24-year-olds, be a matter for debate in itself, but it is right to note that who can vote, has fallen from 51% to 44%. Registration the rights and responsibilities that we accord young among young people is lower than for other population people in society build over time. There is no single groups. Far be it from me to rest this debate on a point on-off switch. of mathematics—no doubt, the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) will realise this—but if I am familiar with the argument, repeated in the participation followed what we see already in that most Votes at 16 coalition briefing, that allowing 16 and youthful age bracket, turnout overall would fall, and 17-year-olds to vote would help engage young people in that would not be the outcome that we were focusing our democracy and political processes at an earlier age. on. That is a dry maths point, but the broader point is I should like to mention some of the evidence available. there and can be brought to life for people. We do not I remain unconvinced that we might achieve that worthy want lower turnout. We want turnout to be higher. Is aim by this method. I am all for young people taking lowering the voting age the tool to achieve that? I am part in politics—I hope that any hon. Member who yet to be convinced of that, but this debate does good observed the age at which I entered the House appreciates work in addressing the matter. that—but we have to do lots of things to achieve more young people being involved in politics; it is not only a An issue of engagement goes far beyond the franchise. matter of the voting age. We in the Government are trying to deal with that Let me turn to a couple of points of evidence. First, among some of the other activities that we are running. the Youth Citizenship Commission, which the previous For example, in the pilots of the Bite the Ballot programme, Government set up, looked at ways to develop young we are talking to young people in schools and colleges— people’s understanding of citizenship and increase their I was with a group in Norwich doing that in the past participation in politics. As part of that, it considered few weeks—about the importance of registering to whether the voting age should be lowered to 16. It vote. That is in the context of individual electoral reported in summer 2009 and felt unable to make a registration. I am amazed that the hon. Member for recommendation on whether the voting age should be Caerphilly (Wayne David) has not yet mentioned that lowered. It suggested that there was a lack of evidence this afternoon, but I should be delighted to take it up available regarding the merits of votes at 16 and noted whenever he wishes. All hon. Members agree that it is that there were, as I have already said, vigorous and important that the individual right and responsibility to strongly held views on either side of the debate. The register and to vote should be treated carefully and YCC’s view was that the voting age is not the principal wisely. factor in encouraging young people’s interest and involvement in politics and citizenship. Wayne David: The Minister has provoked me. She Many wise points are made in the YCC report, but it mentions consultation with Bite the Ballot, for example. did not find significant evidence on which to base a Surely, she will have picked up that that organisation, recommendation. I am sure that all hon. Members like all the others that she has engaged with regarding agree about what it set out to consider: civic awareness, individual electoral registration, supports votes at 16. understanding, maturity of judgment, the place of Have they not persuaded her yet? citizenship education, the impact on turnout and responsible voting, the impact on young people’s perceptions and Miss Smith: I am afraid that they have not. I look civic activity and the administrative issues that would forward to hearing a conclusive argument, if there is go with such a change, all of which are valuable elements one, that takes the majority of society with it. I must in that research and in the debate that we ought to have return to the point that we in Parliament seek to represent if we had longer than half an hour. The YCC found that our constituents. I could not honestly say that a majority “the issue is not the principal factor in encouraging young people’s of my constituents would want me to support votes at interest and involvement in politics and citizenship.” 16. I do not think that that is so. There is wide spread of Where else might we turn for evidence? I am also views throughout society. Some of the stats that I have interested in a YouGov poll released in November 2009, mentioned back that up and give us food for thought. shortly after the YCC report, done for the Citizenship There is no single magic bullet for increasing youth Foundation, which I am sure all hon. Members have engagement in politics. The franchise is but one factor, worked with in their time as parliamentarians. It does as the Youth Citizenship Commission shows. much good work. The poll looked at 14 to 25-year-olds. The point that I want to draw out of it is that, although Wayne David: For me, the bottom line is that, if a it might be expected that 16-year-olds would say, “Yes, young person aged 16 can give full consent to medical please. I am interested in majority and the vote,” as per treatment, leave school and enter work or training, pay the figures that the hon. Lady used. In that category of income tax and national insurance, obtain tax credits 229WH Votes for 16 and 17-year-olds 18 DECEMBER 2012 230WH and welfare benefits in their own right, consent to Outsourcing of Public Services sexual relationships, get married or enter a civil partnership, change their name by deed poll— 4.29 pm Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. Interventions Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): I must be brief. called for a debate this afternoon on the outsourcing of our public services. I am grateful to Social Enterprise Wayne David: I am just coming to the end. They may UK, in particular Celia Richardson, for putting together also join the armed forces and become a company the report, “The Shadow State”, and for raising this director. Surely, if all those things apply, logically, why important matter and providing fresh insight. should voting be exempt? Although politicians can easily become fixated on the high-level discussions in politics, we need to remember Miss Smith: Mr Chope, if I had more time than you that one of the most important roles of government for might allow me, the direct answer would be that that is most people is the provision of high-quality, front-line because the following things do not apply when a public services. Over the past 200 years in Britain and person is 16: holding a licence to drive any vehicle, throughout the world, Government have become more except certain heavy ones, engaging in street trading, and more central to the delivery of services vital for holding an air rifle, etc. I do not wish to simply read out millions of people: health care, child care, policing, the other half of the list. The point is that, as I have prisons, helping people back to work, education and said, a range of activities signal majority from 16 through transport are just a few of the areas that the public to 18. Indeed, there are eight of them, on certain sector reaches. Since 1945, Britain has seen a vast counts. centralisation of such responsibilities away from the local level and from independent organisations and Nic Dakin: I compliment the Minister on her engaging towards central Government. In 2010 prices, the budget contribution to the debate. However, I have not heard has gone from £234 billion in 1945 to £660 billion. any reason for not giving the vote at 16. I hope that she welcomes an ongoing debate about this, so that we can A large proportion of the budget has been spent on take it forward together. public services, and we have seen massive improvements in many areas. I am proud of some of the achievements Miss Smith: I welcome that debate and welcome that have been secured, but we face difficult economic everything that has gone into this debate. Again, I times and cannot expect to keep spending large quantities congratulate the hon. Member for Sunderland Central of money in order to increase the quality of public on securing the debate. I welcome the interest that is services. The vast structures of the public sector, which regularly shown in this debate by those whom we seek were appropriate in the 1940s and ’50s, are now starting to represent and work with. I welcome that not only as a to struggle to deliver the improvements in services and younger person in politics, but as a person who seeks to the productivity increases that we need for the decades have other young people involved in politics, as I seek to ahead. take the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill Over the past 20 years, Governments of all colours through its remaining parliamentary stages. It is vital have increasingly turned to the private sector for delivery that registration and turnout increase in this country. of public services, in order to reduce costs and to We all seek to achieve that. provide better outcomes. Oxford Economics has estimated I cannot give the hon. Member for Caerphilly an that the current outsourced market for public services emphatic yes, a tick in the box or franchise on a plate, has an annual turnover of £82 billion, representing 24% because I do not think that there is consensus in the of the total spend on goods and services by public country for it. That is not reflected in what our constituents services. Rightly, therefore, in July 2011 the Government ask us to do. There are divergent views. Accordingly, released their “Open Public Services” White Paper, which there is no consensus within the Government on this sought to lay out the future direction of public services issue. I shall not hide that fact. It was not included in through five key principles: first, wherever possible to the coalition agreement for Government, so there are increase choice; secondly, to decentralise public services no plans for a change in this Parliament. to the lowest appropriate levels; thirdly, to open public services to a range of providers; fourthly, to ensure fair I thank the hon. Lady for her constructive suggestions access to public services; and, fifthly, to make public about citizenship education, which I will be sure to pass services accountable to users and taxpayers alike. on to my colleagues in the relevant Departments. I look forward very much to continuing this debate and to all Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Is the hon. Gentleman of us doing everything that we can to encourage young aware that a recent Confederation of British Industry people to play the fullest possible part in civic and report stated that more opportunity for private and democratic life. independent sourcing of public services could produce savings of £22.6 billion, while maintaining the quality of service? Is that what we should be looking at?

Chris White: I appreciate both the point made by the hon. Gentleman and the CBI’s report. I will be coming to some of those issues later in my comments. I support those five principles, which I am confident that Members in all parties support as well. The Government have been clear that they are seeking to 231WH Outsourcing of Public Services18 DECEMBER 2012 Outsourcing of Public Services 232WH

[Chris White] businesses. The Work programme, in which £3.3 billion of contracts were awarded, saw one quarter of the increase the amount of public services delivered by contracts go to one company. That is not the opening- independent organisations. Seymour Pierce has predicted up of public services. Only a handful of organisations that the value of the public services sector will increase can bid for contracts of such size. More accessible to £140 billion by 2014. That is a huge amount of public contract sizes would go a long way to change the money and, rightly, we should be concentrating on how situation, as well as enabling a larger degree of social that money is spent and on how we ensure maximum value, as such contracts are able to target additional benefit for our community. A concern, however, is that benefits to be created through the commissioning process. the principles outlined in the “Open Public Services” Secondly, there is an issue of governance and White Paper, to make our public services more accountable, transparency. Despite extensive research, it is difficult more transparent and more in the control of communities, for the public to access information about many public have not been realised in practice. sector contracts. If I or my constituents have questions One deep concern is explained in the Social Enterprise about state-delivered public services, we may ask questions UK report, “The Shadow State”, which has highlighted in this place or through correspondence with Departments a significant lack of transparency and accountability, to get the appropriate answer. Private companies, however, with information from those delivering our public services are often not so willing or forthcoming with information, hard to come by. It also highlighted the increasing leaving a sense of unease among the public. Only greater dominance of our public services by a small group of levels of transparency and accountability can change large multinational businesses and the difficulties that that. I fully support the Government’s efforts to provide small business, charities and social enterprises have details on public spending over £100,000 at both central experienced in accessing provision of our public services. and local government level. That transparency should and can be extended to all public service providers. We cannot have one rule for public sector organisations and Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): My hon. Friend is a another for private sector providers. I appreciate that champion of social enterprise in the House, and we pay some information will be commercially sensitive, but I great tribute to his work. He is making a point about am confident that we can find a method that balances large private sector organisations. Is he, like me, sceptical the public’s right to know with commercial privacy. about the big state, but also sceptical about big private corporations? The Government are making some strides There should also be a central register of public in promoting local organisations, but does he believe sector contracts, both local and national, that are being they are being somewhat timid in their agenda to promote provided by independent organisations, whether private social enterprise locally? sector companies, social enterprises, or charities, both past and present. That should outline the size of the contracts, their length, the expected outcome, and Chris White: My hon. Friend is also a champion of information about their success. All that should be such issues. My speech is about that very subject: the online for ease of public access, and would not involve change from public sector monopolies to, perhaps, private significant cost, because such information should be sector monopolies. We should be sceptical about that, collected by commissioners in the regular course of as he said. their work. That would enable the public to see not only We need to be clear that, if we are opening our public who is providing what services, but how successful services, we are doing so to achieve what is best for our providers have been, and could be a useful tool for communities, in a way that gives choice to commissioners commissioners. and service users and that ensures appropriate levels of The Government have rightly championed the cause accountability. Unless the Government are able to deliver of transparency to improve our public services, but that on their principles, we will not get the outcomes that we must be carried out across providers. I hope that the want from public sector outsourcing. Government will work with commissioners, private Over the past two years, through my work on the businesses, charities and social enterprises. Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012, I have had the opportunity to speak to many community organisations Richard Fuller: My hon. Friend is making a good and social enterprises about the Government proposals point about the role of national Government and for opening up public services. Most are keen to engage supporting local commissioners. Is there a role for in the process and to deliver services that are important national Government to name and shame commissioners to their local community. There appears, however, to be who are too slow in opening up to local providers, and a number of obstacles to their involvement, some of to name those who are doing a good job and are at the which have been highlighted in the report. forefront of the breakthrough of social enterprise, but First, the size of many contracts is a problem. I shame those who just want the default of taking what appreciate that commissioning on a large scale can had been a public service and giving it to the large create efficient economies of scale, but those are not the national contractors? only economies that we should be focusing on; the most useful economy is secured through successful outcomes. Chris White: Absolutely. Naming and shaming is Large contracts do not always lead to better outcomes, always a useful tool in such circumstances. Our and can increase costs in the long term. For example, commissioners should be encouraged to have a greater the UK Border Agency issued £1.7 billion in contracts sense of urgency in dealing with such matters. for asylum-seeker services in March this year, but each The Government have rightly championed the cause of the contracts was for more than £100 million, completely of transparency, and public sector commissioners should locking out our charities, social enterprises and small take a closer look and a closer interest in the corporate 233WH Outsourcing of Public Services18 DECEMBER 2012 Outsourcing of Public Services 234WH structure of the organisations they are commissioning that people will not access the services they need, leading from. Traditional large multinational companies may to more expensive interventions down the line. Communities have some advantages, but the social enterprise model need to feel a strong relationship with the provision of may also have the potential to deliver better outcomes those services, and that is why social enterprises, charities for our communities. At a time when we are seeking to and small businesses are often better placed to deliver spend every penny possible on better outcomes, there is them. concern that traditional private sector models that seek The Government have rightly identified a problem in to deliver large returns for shareholders may lead to our banking sector about institutions that are too big to money seeping out of our public services that might fail, yet there is a danger that by relying on a small otherwise be spent on improvements to those services. clique of large multinational organisations to deliver Social enterprise combines the need to deliver profitability, our public services, we end up creating the same problem to innovate and to deliver better outcomes with a sense in public service delivery. The way to combat that is of community purpose. Not only that, but most social through changing the contract process so that we make enterprises reinvest their profits either back into the contracts more winnable for smaller organisations, helping services they provide, or into the communities where to build supply chains that are resilient and have a they are based. Moreover, through the structure of plethora of providers. That will not only reduce costs in community interest companies, which are a model that the long term through proper competition on costs, but many social enterprises are adopting for public service will spur forward innovation and enable greater delivery, communities are directly involved in the governance personalisation and localisation of services. of the organisation. That gives communities greater The White Paper, “Open Public Services”, was a step levels of accountability than if those services are provided in the right direction, building on a set of principles that by larger organisations with less accessible governance have wide-ranging consensus. All parties went into the structures such as multinational corporations. Sometimes election promising to open the door for delivery of our that will not be possible, but the Government should public services, particularly to social enterprises, mutuals encourage commissioners to be creative and to experiment and charities. We must now all work together to ensure with differing governance needs. that implementation matches the rhetoric. Thirdly, the Treasury can help directly by ensuring The “Shadow State” report has been useful in helping that small businesses, social enterprises and charities to refocus minds in this debate, and we must consider can have access to the finance they need to bid for these the issues now, while we are in the process of reform. contracts directly. The creation of Big Society Capital We have a fantastic opportunity to change our public has been an excellent example of the Government taking services for the better, to realise a future in which people a direct approach to stimulate the social investment feel ownership of the services they are using, and to market, and social impact bonds also have great potential. spur innovation and creativity. The Government have However, those methods do not resolve all the issues rightly seen the need to reform public services, despite a that are in the way of civil society organisations, which period of considerable economic difficulty, but we now is why the Treasury’s internal review of social investment need to deliver on the principles that we have outlined. is so important. We must ensure that we create a new climate of confidence in the social investment market, so that Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): I congratulate my mainstream lenders and institutional investors feel that hon. Friend on an excellent speech, and on his leadership they can participate. Big Society Capital is an important in this matter. This debate contrasts enormously with step forward, but on its own it will not be able rapidly to another on the same subject in which at least two expand the social investment market. That will take Opposition Members were decrying any involvement of place only when our banks, pension funds and venture private companies in the public sector. My Surrey capitalists take a full part in the market, so I hope that community health care contract has gone to Virgin the Minister will give us an update on the progress of Care, and even within the first six months of operation, that internal review, and the main policy areas that the using much the same staff, but lifting the bar and using Government seek to address. Broadening community new working methods, the average waiting time for investment tax relief into social investment tax relief referral for a first appointment has gone down from that gives incentives for direct investment into social 31 days to 19 days, and the waiting time to see a enterprises and their intermediaries could be community nurse has gone down from seven days to transformational, and relatively inexpensive. two days. Customer satisfaction has risen from 71% to 82%. Is that not the sort of improvement that, if it were The report—“The Shadow State”— highlights a number across the whole public sector, would do enormous of key policy areas, such as child care, prison, welfare to good for all our residents? work, and adult social care, which need to be addressed. The report is constructive and proposes solutions. I hope the Minister will take the time to read the report, Chris White: My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I am happy to give him a copy if he has not already and we should applaud such improvements. The same read it. team is delivering the same products and achieving very different results. We should be able to see that across the As we embark on a change in how we deliver our sector. public services, it is vital that we do so in the right way so that the public feel engaged in the process and that To conclude, I hope that the Government will engage we deliver services not only with the best outcomes, but with all sides and work with our civil society organisations in the right manner. Confidence in our public services is to help deliver our public services. We have a window of important because, without confidence, there is a danger opportunity; let us use it. 235WH Outsourcing of Public Services18 DECEMBER 2012 Outsourcing of Public Services 236WH

4.49 pm Another example is social impact bonds. My hon. Friend mentioned the importance of access to finance, The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): particularly for SMEs, if they are to win contracts. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak under your Social impact bonds are a valuable new way to involve chairmanship, Mr Chope. the voluntary, community and social enterprise sector in Government contracts based on payment by results. The outsourcing of public services is an area in which Already, almost 10 SIBs have been issued throughout my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington the country, tackling reoffending, youth unemployment, (Chris White) has a great deal of experience; he feels homelessness and family breakdown. strongly indeed. I commend him for the successful private Member’s Bill that he pushed through Parliament We also have a big new opportunity for payment by with support across the Benches and congratulate him results in probation, where we are testing a range of on securing today’s debate. I agree with a number of models with the private, public and voluntary sectors. points that he has made this afternoon, and I hope that As the Prime Minister said just a couple of months ago: he will, in turn, agree with some of the sentiments that I “With payment by results, your money goes into what works: will express. prisoners going straight, crime coming down, our country getting safer.” My hon. Friend referred rightly to the biggest issue He has indicated that he wants to see payment by results facing the country: the size of the public sector deficit. spread right across the rehabilitation system by the end There are a number of ways in which we need to go of 2015. about fixing that problem. One of the most important is that when we spend public money—the taxes of hard- Richard Fuller: Regarding payment by results, I urge working people—we receive the best possible value in the Minister to be cautious about the difference between return. The outsourcing of public services, whether to the desire to achieve improved performance based on small and medium-sized enterprises, social enterprises payment by results in the short term and the provision or larger organisations, is an excellent way to achieve of competitive tendering for Government contracts in that. I want to lay out the broad principles behind the the long term. One of the issues with privatisation is Government’s approach and then talk about some of that it was a good way to make a substantial amount of the specific reforms. I also want to talk about some of money in the short term, but there have been competitive the measures that we have taken specifically to help results in the long term. I think that part of today’s SMEs and social enterprises. debate is about ensuring that the Government have the The Government are committed to improving the right balance between large corporations that can deliver quality of public services and delivering them more in the short term and providing more availability for efficiently. Last July, as my hon. Friend rightly said— small and medium-sized enterprises to provide that I am glad that he welcomed this—we published the competitive tendering in the long term. “Open Public Services” White Paper, which set out five key principles: choice, decentralisation, fairness, Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point accountability and diversity. If we are going to be about the tensions that sometimes exist between short-term successful in achieving those principles, transparency, goals and long-term goals, and he has used the excellent which my hon. Friend also mentioned, is key. He talked example of previous privatisation programmes. The about it, rightly, at length. Transparency is important to Government will indeed take that into account. achieving all those principles. With regard to prison procurement, we currently have five new contracts in train, bringing the total Key elements of our approach include increasing the number of contracted-out prisons to 14. Let me move amount of services that we commission out, taking on to another example. In health care, we have seen an advantage of efficiencies and real-world benefits that increased volume of treatments being delivered via the voluntary and private sectors can deliver and ensuring independent providers. We heard an excellent example a diverse provision of services to drive quality through from my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Jonathan competition. We are also making greater use of payment Lord), who referred to Virgin Care in his own constituency. by results, which is good for Government, because the In 2010-11, 17% of hip replacements were delivered by financial risk is taken by the investor, not the taxpayer. independent providers—a rise from 0% in 2003-04. By It is also good for the voluntary sector, as it opens up outsourcing the services that I have highlighted, we are many more opportunities for social enterprises and not only driving up the quality of services available and charities to deliver public services. I am sure that our saving the public’s money, but increasing the public’s thinking is very much in the same sentiment as that of choice about the services that they receive. my hon. Friend. My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Let me turn to some of the key reforms. I know that it Leamington spoke eloquently about the importance of is easy for a Minister to stand on this spot and talk social value in procurement. He is passionate about about theories and ideologies, so let me be a bit more improving access to contracts for SMEs and social specific and give some examples of concrete action that enterprises. I hope that he is pleased that the Government the Government have been taking. An example is the share that passion. In fact, every Department in Whitehall Work programme. The Government have taken tens of has a nominated SME Minister who is responsible for thousands of people off benefits and helped them into delivering an SME procurement action plan for that jobs. Figures released last month show that at least Minister’s Department. In the case of my Department, 56% of the scheme’s earliest participants have come off that Minister is me, so he will know who to harass if he benefits, with 19% spending at least six consecutive believes that the Treasury is not making suitable progress months off them. in this area. 237WH Outsourcing of Public Services18 DECEMBER 2012 Outsourcing of Public Services 238WH

Thanks to the provision that I have described, more area during the past two and a half years. “Procurement” than 2,000 of the 5,700 contracts awarded through the and “outsourcing” are rather dry words that can, if we Government’s contracts finder website have been allocated are perfectly honest, force more than the odd eye to to SMEs, and we are taking steps to give SMEs greater glaze over. I am sure that my hon. Friend would agree, opportunities to bid for contracts. The Government’s though, that discussions about procurement and procurement pipelines give forward visibility of future outsourcing are crucial to ensuring that public money is potential public sector procurement opportunities, providing spent wisely. I thank all hon. Members for their greater confidence for industry to invest. The Cabinet contributions today and I thank you, Mr Chope, for Office is tracking a pipeline of about 100 developing your chairmanship. and established projects, worth £84 billion in total. Question put and agreed to. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington not only for allowing us the opportunity to 4.58 pm discuss this issue today, but for his tireless work in this Sitting adjourned.

77WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 78WS

Discussion then turned to the union customs code dossier. The Written Ministerial Commission were particularly concerned to meet the June deadline for the implementation of the recast customs code. Several member states, including the UK, recognised the deadline as a challenge, Statements expressed commitment to achieve it in terms of content and timing, but also that we should not rush to agreement. However, other member states intervened to call for a speedy resolution. Tuesday 18 December 2012 The dossier will be further discussed in working groups in January. Following lunch (there was no Council-based discussion over BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS lunch) the Council gave political endorsement to the patent package, which consists of the regulation creating a unitary patent, the regulation on the language regime and the inter- EU Competitiveness Council governmental agreement that would create the unified patent court. Some member states intervened to welcome the package, and some raised a few issues with the text but did not change their The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David position regarding endorsement of the package. Willetts): My noble Friend, the Minister of State Council conclusions were adopted on Single Market Act II for Trade and Investment (joint with Foreign and without comment from other member states. Commonwealth Office), Lord Green, has today made The next substantive agenda item was the public procurement the following statement: package, consisting of three measures to update EU public The EU Competitiveness Council took place in Brussels on procurement rules. The main outstanding point was whether the 10 and 11 December 2012. I represented the UK on internal measure governing procurements by utilities should allow the market and industry issues on 10 December, and my right hon. Commission to initiate reciprocal action against third counties Friend the Minister for Universities and Science (David Willetts) that did not open their procurement markets. At COREPER the represented the UK for research items on 11 December. A summary presidency had added articles that replicated the existing arrangements of those discussions follows. whereby the Council could agree, by qualified majority, to restrict The main internal market and industry issues discussed on access by third countries in certain circumstances. The UK argued 10 December were: state aid modernisation; industrial policy; that these provisions were not necessary given that a separate Customs 2020; the union customs code; unified patent and the legislative proposal on reciprocity was being discussed by trade unified patent court; Single Market Act II; public procurement; Ministers, but that we could reluctantly accept the proposal on and mutual recognition of professional qualifications. the clear condition that: they went no further than what was Council began with a policy debate on the Commission’s plans already in EU law; they applied to utilities only (and not general to modernise the state aid rules. Commissioner Almunia set out public sector procurements covered by the main “classical”directive); the principles of the initiative, namely a more focused and simplified and in forthcoming trilogues with the EP this position should not regime better aligned with EU2020 objectives that better tackled be changed. Several member states intervened in a similar way. market failure and enhanced EU competitiveness while protecting The other elements of package were also discussed. The presidency the internal market. All member states intervened to support the concluded that general approaches had been agreed on all three Commission’s objectives, and most then raised specific issues with texts. the proposals. For example, there were calls for more flexible rules Earlier UK gains relating to mutuals, defence and security on the use of regional aid, changes to thresholds and matching (including the revisions to the utilities and concessions texts funding. I intervened to support the Commission’s approach, negotiated after COREPER) and “flexibilisation” of processes, welcoming the intention for scrutiny of state aid to focus on the were not challenged so remain in the general approach texts most difficult cases, and stating the need to avoid the use of state agreed by Council. aid to prop up uncompetitive firms or in supporting national champions. Commissioner Almunia then summarised the discussion The final substantive agenda item was mutual recognition of and said he would take note of the points made. professional qualifications, where the presidency outlined the The next item concerned industrial policy. Firstly adoption of progress made on this directive over the past six months. Main Council conclusions on an industrial policy communication, followed interventions by member states concerned recognition of qualifications by an exchange of views on CARS2020—an action plan for a in the healthcare sector, while other member states called for the competitive and sustainable automotive industry in Europe. The need for flexibility to reach agreement as soon as possible. Council adopted conclusions on the industrial policy communication Several AOB items were discussed at the Council. On the with all member states in agreement on the compromise text. The consumer agenda, the presidency informed the Council that they Council then debated CARS2020. The debate in Council followed had reached a provisional first reading agreement with the European on from a dinner hosted by Commissioner Tajani the evening Parliament on both instruments concerning the alternative dispute before the Council, which was attended by Michael Fallon, Minister mechanism directive and the online dispute mechanism regulation. for Business and Enterprise. Most member states intervened on The presidency also announced that agreement had been reached this agenda item, acknowledging the importance of the automotive on all the key provisions in the consumer programme initiative sector to the EU economy, with many stressing the importance of (except use of delegated acts and on the financial envelope) and directing investments towards research and innovation in the the Commission also summarised the findings of the recently sector. The impact on the automotive sector with respect to free published consumer markets scoreboard. Three AOB items related trade agreements was also raised, with some member states to customs were also on the agenda. The Commission presented advocating reciprocity in negotiations. There was also support for their report on the EU action plan on intellectual property rights better regulation principles in the automotive sector, and ensuring 2009-12, the Council adopted a resolution on an EU customs coherence in all policies impacting the sector. I intervened to action plan to combat intellectual property rights infringements welcome the Commission’s action plan, whilst stressing that it is 2013-17, and the Council also adopted conclusions on evolution for individual companies to make commercial decisions based on of the customs union. All three dossiers passed without comment. capacity and business plans, who should be able to do this A further AOB point concerned the European semester/annual without hindrance or interference. growth survey, where the Commission discussed growth priorities The next substantive agenda item was a discussion on Customs over the coming year. Again, this passed without comment. The 2020. The Council agreed a partial general approach on the final AOB point concerned the accounting directive, where proposed regulation, which provides a legal basis for funding the presidency reported on the progress on negotiations with the customs action programme from 2014. At our request, the the European Parliament. There were still some issues to settle, Commission supported the joint Council/Commission statement though it was hoped agreement could be reached at the next confirming that provisions in the regulation fall outside of Tile V. trilogue on 18 December 2012. 79WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 80WS

On 11 December the Council opened with space agenda items, Collective Redundancies with an exchange of views on a Commission communication on the future relations between the EU and the European Space Agency (ESA). Vice-President Tajani opened the debate by noting The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, the growing role that the EU was playing in space, highlighting Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): As part of the Galileo/Egnos and the GMES earth observation system (now Government’s ongoing review of employment law, and named ‘Copernicus’) as particular examples of EU action in this in response to the red tape challenge, I have published area, and emphasised that article 189 of the treaty on the functioning today the Government response to the consultation on of the EU, which had introduced a union competence in space, meant that the EU was now an actor in its own right, alongside changes to the rules on collective redundancy. This sets member states and ESA. Given the importance of the space out the Government’s decision to introduce legislative sector for the EU’s future competitiveness, and as the EU relied reform to those rules and new guidance by April 2013. heavily on ESA to deliver research and development on its behalf, Consultation on the collective redundancy rules Mr Tajani argued that the time was right to review the relationship concluded on 19 September 2012 having sought views and explore a wide range of options for improved co-operation. on a package to encourage better quality consultation During the discussion that followed the majority of member in large-scale redundancies. We received 160 responses states agreed that it was appropriate to review relations, although and held a number of focus groups. Consultees confirmed the tone of the Commission’s communication, which focused difficulties with the current rules that undermine the almost exclusively on the difficulties in the existing relationship, came in for criticism from a number of quarters. A large number effectiveness of collective redundancy consultation and (led by the UK amongst others) emphasised that they valued the the ability of employers to restructure efficiently in role of ESA and wished to maintain it as an independent response to market pressures. intergovernmental organisation. The UK also noted that it was The Government have concluded that a strong case unfortunate that ESA had not been invited to participate in the has been made for a combination of legislative change discussion. At the end of the debate the Irish delegation confirmed and new guidance. We have decided to introduce a that they intend to adopt Council conclusions on this issue during their presidency. statutory change to reduce the current 90-day minimum period before very large redundancies can take place to The main items discussed in the research part of the Council 45 days. This change will allow businesses to restructure on 11 December were: the specific programme for Horizon 2020 (the EU’s research and innovation funding programme for 2014-20), more effectively, and give them flexibility to respond to the strategic innovation agenda (SIA) of the European Institute changing market conditions. But the 45 days will be of Innovation and Technology (EIT), the EURATOM programme a minimum consultation period. We received plenty of in Horizon 2020, and the European research area and international evidence to show that consultations can and do last collaboration in research. longer than the minimum period and we expect that to The presidency sought political agreement on draft texts of the continue where circumstances make this desirable. specific programme (the document which sets out the scientific We have also decided to legislate to exclude fixed-term content of the programme) and the EIT’s SIA. On the former, contracts which have reached their agreed termination member states agreed to wording in the presidency draft designed point from collective redundancy consultation obligations. to strengthen member state oversight of the implementation of the programme through the member state committees which The consultation demonstrated that employers, particularly oversee the various elements of the programme. Several of the in higher education institutes, struggle with existing newer member states sought to press for amendments which uncertainty around whether the natural ending of fixed-term would have strengthened actions aimed at widening participation contracts triggers a requirement for collective redundancy in the programme; the UK, along with other member states with consultation. strong research sectors and the Commission, successfully resisted Legislative change will be through secondary legislation, this move, arguing that the text already included compromises in this direction and that further changes would dilute the programme’s subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. In addition, focus on excellence. There were also discussions of the civilian Acas will produce non-statutory guidance that addresses nature of the programme and on the provisions concerning the key contentious issues raised during consultation. The funding of human embryonic stem cells. Political agreement was aim will be to promote good quality consultation and reached on the basis of the presidency text with two minor engagement between employers and employees. amendments; Malta abstained. I believe these reforms of the collective redundancy Political agreement was also reached on the EIT SIA. rules will strike an appropriate balance between ensuring In other business, the presidency gave a short overview of employees are engaged in decisions about their future progress on the EURATOM part of the Horizon 2020 programme. and allowing employers greater certainty and flexibility The Council adopted conclusions on the European research area to take necessary steps to restructure. which underlined the importance of completing this by 2014 and Copies of the Government response have been placed Ministers held an exchange of views on international co-operation in research and innovation, based on a Commission communication in the Libraries of both Houses. on this subject. The lunchtime discussion involved Professor Anne Glover, the World Trade Organisation (Accession) EU chief scientific advisor, who outlined her role and spoke on the importance of risk assessment in policy making. The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David During the discussion that followed my right hon. Friend the Willetts): My noble Friend, the Minister of State Minister for Universities and Science (David Willetts) underlined for Trade and Investment, (joint with Foreign and the important role that Professor Glover, other chief scientific advisors, and Ministers had to play in improving the use of Commonwealth Office), Lord Green’ has today made scientific evidence in the policy-making process. In too many the following statement: instances policies were driven by a restrictive interpretation of the I wish to inform the House that the Government have opted in precautionary principle which obstructed innovation by confusing to the Council decisions relating to the accession of Lao People’s risk and hazard, which risk undermining the EU’s ability to Democratic Republic (PDR) and Tajikistan to the World Trade innovate and compete internationally in a range of fields. His Organisation (WTO). intervention was picked up by others and the Irish expressed an In each case, opting in will help to achieve the Government’s interest in following up on it during their presidency. trade policy objectives of expanding the WTO’s membership. 81WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 82WS

The Government have supported the accession of both Lao This marks a further step towards greater transparency PDR and Tajikistan to the WTO on the right terms. In acceding in bank lending, specifically to SMEs. I am today to the WTO, they will embrace a series of rules and commitments announcing the publication of EFG lending figures by which form the foundation of an open, transparent and non- individual bank. discriminatory global trading system which will provide important guarantees for them and for the other WTO members. Accession to the WTO will bring them more firmly into the global economy TREASURY and make them more attractive places to do business. In each case, the Council decisions have the effect of extending to the acceding countries the horizontal commitments the UK Credit Union (Maximum Interest Rate Cap) makes to all WTO members, including in the provision of services by natural persons from third countries, otherwise known as The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): “Mode 4”. It is the presence of these Mode 4 commitments in the relevant instruments which triggers the UK Justice and Home The Government have today published a consultation Affairs opt-in. on raising the maximum interest rate cap for credit union loans. This consultation seeks views on the proposal to increase the maximum interest rate that credit unions can charge, from 2% per month to 3% per month. Enterprise Finance Guarantee Lending The rationale for this proposal was explained in detail in a feasibility study commissioned by the Department The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation for Work and Pensions (published in May 2012), which and Skills (Michael Fallon): I am today announcing the found that credit unions are currently unable to break publication of enterprise finance guarantee (EFG) lending even on small, short-term loans. This leads to a lack of figures by individual banks. stability in the sector, which is damaging for the long-term The Government are committed to ensuring that future of credit unions. viable small and medium-size enterprises (SMEs) can Allowing the maximum rate of interest to increase obtain the finance they need for working capital and will enable credit unions to become more stable over the investment. EFG plays an important part in this, with long term. This means that low-income consumers will over 9,900 SMEs being offered loans with a value in have greater access to reliable, affordable credit, without excess of £1 billion since May 2010. having to resort to more expensive means, such as home The Government have made a number of important credit or payday lenders, or worse, illegal lenders. Even changes to the EFG scheme during the last 12 months. with a 1% increase in the monthly rate of interest, credit EFG loans are now available to an additional 3,800 union loans will still be substantially cheaper than the businesses with an increase in the turnover limit from alternatives for consumers with no mainstream options. £25 million to £41 million. The maximum £1 million It is important to note that this increase in the interest lifetime scheme limit has been replaced by a rolling rate would be permissive; it does not require credit £1 million limit. We also raised by 7%, the level of unions to increase the interest rate they charge but lenders EFG annual loan portfolios to which the simply permits them to do so if they judge that the Government guarantee applies from 13% to 20%. benefits outweigh the costs. As such, the measure eases This change was made to address the legitimate concern an existing regulatory burden on credit unions. of lenders that they would breach their annual claim Many credit unions are strongly embedded in their limit. In doing this, the Government committed to a local communities and are committed to assisting those more even share of the risk of default with the lenders, on low incomes. Research shows that credit unions with the aim of removing that as a barrier to lending. often appeal to low-income consumers as bodies which are local, accessible and convenient, and which are EFG is a demand-led scheme, accounting for 1% to community based. Giving credit unions more flexibility 2% of overall SME lending. While utilisation is directly in their lending will enable them to recruit new members, linked to subdued demand for credit in the wider economy, and further establish their role in helping the financially overall EFG lending levels are disappointing. There excluded. have been some positive signs, with a number of the main banks increasing EFG lending this financial year, The Department for Work and Pensions, HM Treasury, albeit from a low level. and the Department for Business Innovation and Skills will continue to work closely on all aspects of the credit It is important that banks lend responsibly and make union expansion project including this consultation, use of EFG when it is appropriate to do so, but it is and any consequential legislation. clear from the EFG lending figures that a number of lenders could and should be doing more. The publication I am placing copies of this consultation document in of individual bank EFG lending figures is intended to the Libraries of both Houses. help achieve this. In parallel, we are exploring with the banks ways of flexing EFG to address debt serviceability, Parliamentary Scrutiny of Government Expenditure which is the principal reason behind loan declines. Further detail will be provided in the new year. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, In September 2010, the hon. Members for Gainsborough already publishes a wide range of EFG lending figures, (Mr Leigh) and for Southport (Dr John Pugh) were which are updated on a quarterly basis. Publication of appointed as financial advisers to HM Treasury. The individual EFG lending figures will further enhance hon. Member for Gainsborough stepped down from this, allowing business customers to identify which banks the role of financial adviser following his appointment are making most use of the scheme, and also enable as Chair of the Public Accounts Commission in 2011, participating lenders and new market entrants to identity and the hon. Member for Southport followed suit. I am new opportunities, thus increasing choice and competition. grateful for the work they undertook in this capacity. 83WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 84WS

The MPs prepared a report in 2011 on how parliamentary baths, which is the right approach. There will, of course, scrutiny of Government expenditure could be improved. remain a duty for these non-notifiable works to comply Many of the recommendations contained in the report with the safety provisions required by the regulations fall within the responsibility of Parliament. However, and which we have also updated. the Treasury is working to implement the recommendation The new part P seeks to achieve a reasonable balance that the Government take forward plans for developing of risk. We will continue to monitor indicators which mid-year reporting by individual Departments. Work can help identify the impact of the changes and keep on mid-year reporting is underway and, subject to this under review. But the key to ensuring electrical satisfactory progress, we plan to introduce mid-year work is done properly is to employ competent electricians reporting from 2013-14. and so the Department will continue to work closely A copy of the report is being placed in the Libraries with external partners to identify what more can be of both Houses. done to promote the importance of complying with the provisions of part P through use of a suitably qualified COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT electrician. In addition, I will be bringing forward further regulations later next year that will introduce an alternative Building Regulations route to demonstrating compliance with part P by allowing for third-party certification of electrical work. This will safeguard standards while providing a far cheaper way The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for of verifying work is adequate—particularly for those Communities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): I carrying out DIY work. These changes will be accompanied am setting out today the changes that will be made to by simpler, clearer and shorter guidance in a new approved the building regulations regime in England to deliver an document P that we will be publishing shortly. even better and more cost-effective way of ensuring our In addition, we will be making a number of other buildings remain safe and sustainable. The changes will changes to the building regulations. We will amend the deliver savings of around £50 million per year to business. technical guidance in approved document B (fire safety). In addition, legislation will also be laid before Parliament In particular, we will update guidance in respect of shortly to amend the energy performance of buildings lighting diffusers which has grown out of date as lighting regulations and to repeal unnecessary fire provisions of technology has changed considerably. We will also, in local Acts which overlap national provisions. relation to wall coverings, be taking forward changes to The consultation paper issued by the Department for mitigate problems associated with how the European Communities and Local Government on 31 January reaction to fire classifications work in practice. In effect, this year contained a range of proposals to improve the the changes will maintain the status quo, for example, building regulations regime. I am setting out today allowing wallpapers that are currently used to continue decisions on the deregulatory changes. I am also publishing to be so in the future. Both these changes have been today a document providing a factual summary of the supported by independent research which shows there responses received. The changes have been developed are no adverse impacts on safety. after active engagement with external partners and We will also be taking forward rationalisation of demonstrate the Government’s ongoing commitment to guidance supporting parts M, K and N (access, protection ensuring that where regulation is necessary the impact from falling, collision and impact and glazing respectively) on business is properly considered and the associated to address areas of conflict and overlap, which again cost minimised. Decisions on the outstanding issues impose unnecessary costs. At the same time we will relating to the energy efficiency of buildings, on better clarify the guidance on access statements in approved targeting of radon protection measures and the referencing document M to promote a more proportionate, risk-based of British standards for structural design based on approach. These changes will be delivered by clearer Eurocodes will be set out in a further statement next guidance in a new approved document K and amendment year. We will also set out next year the outcome of the of other approved documents which I will be publishing review of the framework of building regulations and shortly. We intend that all of these deregulatory changes local housing standards which I announced in October. will come into force on 6 April 2013. Engagement with our external partners shows that they continue to value the national minimum standards In addition to the changes to the “technical”provisions, provided by the building regulations. However, where we have also agreed a number of improvements to the any concerns do arise it is necessary to address them. building control system. These are relatively minor changes That is why we listened to those that expressed concern to benefit both local authorities and approved inspectors with the costs associated with the electrical safety in the through changes to the procedures around completion home provisions in part P of the building regulations. certificates, statutory notifications and removal of the Some have even advocated that part P should be revoked “Warranty Link Rule”. as a burdensome requirement on competent electricians. The changes to regulations also extend the scope for We disagree—part P has been a success—but we do existing competent person scheme operators. This will recognise that there is scope to streamline the requirements allow more work to be self-certified and thereby avoid by removing the requirement to notify smaller-scale, the need to notify a building control body or pay a lower-risk electrical work to a building control body. building control charge. Currently homeowners can face building control fees of In relation to the building regulations, we will upwards of £240 to have simple electrical work, such as also be publishing shortly a new approved document 7 an additional plug socket in a kitchen, approved by a which provides updated guidance on adequate materials local authority. This change will see the notification and workmanship for building work, in particular the requirements focused on higher-risk jobs like the installation implications of the full implementation of the European of new circuits, or work in the vicinity of showers and Construction Products Regulation on 1 July 2013. 85WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 86WS

Updated energy performance of buildings regulations A few recommendations will take longer to complete. will also be laid before the House shortly. These, in I acknowledge that there is more to do in some areas, addition to consolidating the existing regulations, transpose such as development of the whole force concept and the the requirements of the recast energy performance of delivery of improved management information, and I buildings directive 2010 and remove unnecessary “gold- value Lord Levene’s continued interest and focus on plating”. The directive is an EU measure designed to these important changes. tackle climate change by reducing the amount of carbon I am placing a copy of Lord Levene’s letter in the produced by buildings. Library of the House, together with the MOD’s summary The new requirements will be introduced on 9 January of progress against the 53 defence reform recommendations. 2013. The key measures include a requirement for property advertisements to include details of the energy performance certificate rating where available; removal of the requirement Red Arrow Hawk XX179 (Service Inquiry) to attach the front page of the certificate to any written material; exempting listed buildings from the need to have a certificate on their sale or rent; extending the The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark current requirement for a display energy certificate in Francois): I wish to inform the House of the findings of large public buildings, to public buildings above 500m2; the service inquiry into the accident involving RAF and introducing a requirement for a certificate to be Aerobatic Team Hawk T Mk 1 XX179 on 20 August displayed in commercial premises larger than 500m2 2011, in which Flight Lieutenant Jon Egging was tragically that are frequently visited by the public and where one killed. has been previously issued. On the day of the accident, following a successful Finally, given this statement relates to the regulation aerobatic display at Bournemouth air festival, the Red of buildings, I am informing the House that I will also Arrows returned to Bournemouth international airport. shortly be laying regulations to repeal unnecessary fire During the formation manoeuvre to position for landing, provisions in 23 local Acts. The decision has been taken XXI79 developed a progressively steepening downward in the light of previous consultation which found no flight path and was observed to crash in open fields evidence to justify maintaining requirements which go south of the airport perimeter. The aircraft broke up beyond the necessary protection already afforded nationally before coming to rest in the vicinity of the River Stour. through the building regulations, and lead to differing A service inquiry was convened by the director general and inconsistent rules even within fire and rescue authority of the Military Aviation Authority to examine the cause areas. Evidence does not establish any statistically significant of the accident and to make recommendations to prevent impact on life safety. These changes are intended to recurrence. The service inquiry panel has conducted an come into force on 9 January 2013. independent, thorough and objective inquiry and its I will be placing the revised guidance in the approved report is now complete. documents referred to above, along with the impact An executive summary of the full report has previously assessments that accompany all of these changes, in the been provided to relevant defence stakeholders to ensure Library of the House when they are published shortly the timely dissemination of these air safety lessons. The and alongside the summary of responses that I am more acute recommendations have already been placing there today. implemented by the chain of command. DEFENCE The coroner’s inquest into the death of Flight Lieutenant Egging has now concluded. As such, a copy of the Defence Reform Report service inquiry, redacted in accordance with the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, is being The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond): placed in the Library of the House today and on the My noble friend Lord Levene of Portsoken has conducted Ministry of Defence website. the first annual review of implementation of his defence reform report recommendations of June 2011, and has written to me setting out his conclusions. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE I welcome Lord Levene’s recognition of the strong progress made to date in implementing his recommendations, and his confidence that the delivery Oil and Gas Regulatory Regime of the majority of them will be achieved in time to transition to a new operating model for the Ministry of Defence (MOD) in April 2013. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Some of the key changes of defence reform are Climate Change (Mr John Hayes): I am today publishing already complete, such as strengthened top-level decision the response to the Maitland review’s recommendations making and the focus on strategic direction from a on the UK’s offshore oil and gas regulatory regime. newly-constituted Defence Board, which I chair. The On 20 April 2010, the Deepwater Horizon drilling Joint Forces Command has been established and its rig, working on the Macondo well in the gulf of Mexico, first commander appointed. Many other recommendations exploded leading to the tragic deaths of 11 personnel are on track for delivery by April 2013 with the and the loss of 4.9 million barrels of oil to the sea. implementation of the new delegated financial and While the offshore UK oil and gas regime is regarded as military capability operating model: this will strengthen one of the strongest in the world, the Government accountability and give the Service Chiefs much greater wanted to ensure that the UK considered the findings freedom to manage their resources and plan for future from the official Macondo reports and their relevance capability. to the oil and gas industry in the UK. 87WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 88WS

The Government asked Geoffrey Maitland, Professor hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon). of Energy Engineering at Imperial College London, to Richard Lochhead MSP, Alun Davies AM and Michelle chair an independent review panel to carry out this O’Neill MLA will also attend. task. Mick Temple (retired BAA Development Director Tuesday will concentrate on fisheries. Wednesday will and currently a Member of the Faculty of Sustainability be split between agriculture and fisheries with the possibility Leadership at the University of Cambridge) and Professor that the latter will go into Thursday. Discussions on John Shepherd (Research Fellow in Earth Systems at fisheries will cover fixing the 2013-14 fishing opportunities the University of Southampton) also provided their for deep sea stocks applicable in the Black sea and considerable expertise to the panel. EU/Norway 2013 annual consultation, establishing a The independently chaired panel published its report long-term plan for cod stocks, and fishing opportunities in December 2011. The report made recommendations available in EU waters for EU vessels, in non-EU waters around 10 key themes: well planning and control, for stocks and groups of fish which are subject to environmental protection, emergency response, learning negotiations or agreement. from incidents and best practice, implementation assurance, The discussion on agriculture will focus on the competency and training of the workforce, workforce presidency’s progress report on the CAP reform engagement, liability and insurance, regulator issues negotiations. and technology development. There are currently three any other business items on A steering group of representatives from the Department vine planting rights, a declaration of eastern European of Energy and Climate Change (DECC), the Health countries conclusions of the international conference and Safety Executive(HSE), the Maritime and Coastguard on the movement of exotic animals and a report from Agency (MCA) and the industry representative body the Commission about the phasing out of the milk Oil and Gas UK have carefully considered the Maitland quota system. review recommendations. I am pleased today to publish the response to the panel’s recommendations. I have deposited copies of the response document in the House for Members to read. Agriculture and Fisheries Council (November) The majority of the recommendations have been positively received and implemented in full; some of the work is ongoing, but where this applies work plans The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and with appropriate target dates for completion are in Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): I attended the place and detailed in the response. There were other Agriculture and Fisheries Council on 28 and 29 November recommendations, where after full and careful consideration, in Brussels covering agricultural issues. I was accompanied it was concluded that an alternative approach was more by the Minister of State, Department for Environment, appropriate to achieve a similar outcome. Where this is Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member the case, a full explanation of the work that was undertaken for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), and the Under- to reach the alternative conclusion is contained in the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural response. Affairs, responsible for the natural environment, water A new senior oversight group, comprising DECC, and rural affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for HSE and MCA, will supervise the successful implementation Newbury (Richard Benyon), who spoke on fisheries of the Maitland review recommendations that are still issues. Alun Davies AM, Richard Lochhead MSP and being delivered as well as ensuring that the offshore Michelle O’Neil MLA also attended. regime remains fit for purpose in the longer term. The substantive business of the Council began with a I believe that the Government and industry responses lunch for agriculture Ministers during which we discussed to the independent panel’s recommendations, alongside the topic, proposed by the presidency, of “the current other ongoing work, will ensure that the UK continental context of CAP reform”. In the course of discussion it shelf (UKCS) offshore oil and gas industry builds upon became clear that a significant number of member its existing high standards by: protecting the environment; states did not share the presidency’s view that agreement engaging and safeguarding its workforce; responding to of a “partial general approach” on the CAP reform emergencies and introducing new mechanisms on financial proposals could be achieved at the December Council. responsibility so that petroleum licensees on the UKCS The presidency accordingly indicated that they would must demonstrate that they have the financial capability instead provide a report of the progress made on the to response to an incident before consent is given to reform package. drill exploration and appraisal wells. Discussion in the formal session of Council covered three aspects of the CAP reform package, addressing a ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS series of questions posed by the presidency to guide discussion. Agriculture and Fisheries Council Agenda (December) On greening of direct payments, the presidency sought views on the concept of equivalence, governing any flexibility accorded to member states on how they The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and implemented the requirements. All agreed that an Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): The next Agriculture equivalence regime had to be simple, transparent and and Fisheries Council is on Tuesday 18 to Thursday efficient. Some member states highlighted the need for 20 December in Brussels. I will be representing the some form of ex ante approval process to ensure that UK, accompanied by the Under-Secretary of State for “equivalent”measures implemented would not subsequently Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, responsible be deemed insufficient by auditors. Several member for the natural environment, water and rural affairs, my states stated that it was important to avoid double 89WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 90WS funding of the same actions through both direct payments, Under any other business Denmark called for a more and rural development funding, but there was little streamlined decision-making process for fixing the catch clarity on how this would be achieved. limits for Norway pout. The Netherlands also tabled a On the regulation governing the Single Common paper on their concerns on the technical conditions Market Organisation the discussion focused on whether under the new protocol for the EU/Mauritania fisheries to retain the date of 2015 for ending beet sugar production agreement. quota, as agreed in previous reforms, and on vine planting rights. On sugar, some member states wanted to keep to the original agreement and end quotas in FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE 2015, most beet-producing countries wanted to maintain quota until at least 2020 and those countries which conceded quota previously argued to have it returned. Foreign Affairs Council/General Affairs Council The Commission (Ciolos) held firm on its proposal. Member states also raised aspects of the regulation they were unhappy with. These included milk quotas, vine The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My planting rights, marketing standards, reference prices right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and and producer organisations. Commonwealth Affairs and I attended the Foreign Affairs Council (FAC) on 10 December, the Foreign On the rural development regulation, member states Secretary attending the initial part before handing over raised important outstanding issues. Most member states to me. I attended the General Affairs Council (GAC) on felt this was the closest regulation to agreement but 11 December in Brussels. The Foreign Affairs Council more work was needed on several detailed aspects. was chaired by the High Representative of the European Council considered a Commission proposal to permit Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness the use of lactic acid as an anti-microbial surface treatment. Ashton of Upholland, and the General Affairs Council No member state changed its previously indicated position, was chaired by the Cypriot Presidency, the Deputy and the Council offered no opinion. If the European Minister for European Affairs, Ambassador Andreas Parliament does not reject the proposal (which now Mavroyiannis, and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, seems likely as the Parliament’s Environment Committee Dr Erato Kozakou-Markoullis. approved it), it will be referred back to the Commission FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL to adopt once the four-month scrutiny period expires Commissioners Füle (enlargement and European on 3 February 2013. neighbourhood policy) and Georgieva (international Under any other business a report on the rural co-operation, humanitarian aid and crisis response) development error rate was raised by Commissioner were also in attendance for some of the discussions. Ciolos. At above 7%, it was the highest error rate across A provisional report of the meetings and all conclusions all EU budget lines and well above the materiality adopted can be found at: http://www.consilium. europa.eu/ threshold of 2%. He identified some reasons why this uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/EN/foraff/134152.pdf. might be the case and suggested that simplification as EU-Russia Summit part of CAP reform could make implementation simpler. Over lunch, Ministers discussed the EU-Russia summit Spain raised the EU-Morocco agriculture agreement, which will be held in Brussels on 21 December. There complaining that import prices for tomatoes from Morocco was a widely shared view that the EU should focus on were below the agreed entry price. In response, the human rights, including the role and freedom of non- Commission pointed out that this is not unusual for this governmental organisations (NGOs); push Russia to time of year, concluding that this is an issue for national end its restrictive trade practices in order to comply customs authorities who implement the regulations. with its World Trade Organisation obligations; press for Spain acknowledged this but thought the Commission implementation of the agreement on Siberian overflight should do more to ensure that the correct levies were royalties; and reaffirm the importance of the third being applied throughout the EU. energy package. Austria tabled a short paper on their “New European Middle East Peace Process Food Model”, and a number of member states supported Over lunch, Ministers considered the need for the initiative, despite its absence of clarity on mechanisms. re-engagement by the international community on the The Commission suggested it would be a good topic for middle east peace process in 2013. Ministers agreed a future informal Agriculture Council, once CAP reform conclusions calling for the parties to return to negotiations had concluded. without precondition with international support; expressing On fisheries business the Council agreed total allowable deep dismay at and strong opposition to recent Israeli catches for 2013 and 2014 for deep-sea species. This was announcements on settlements; calling on Israel to agreed by qualified majority vote, with Sweden voting avoid undermining the financial situation of the Palestinian against. In line with UK requests, alongside the final Authority; and urging the Palestinians not to build on text the Commission tabled a declaration on the need to their change in UN status in a way that would undermine seek scientific advice on adding the lowfin gulper shark a return to talks. to the list of species defined as deep sea sharks. Southern Neighbourhood On EU/Norway the Council heard an update from The Council debated the latest developments in Syria, the Commission on the first round of talks, and were ahead of the next meeting of the Friends of Syria group invited to highlight priorities for the second round in Marrakech on 12 December. During lunch, Ministers taking place 3 to 7 December. The UK underlined the exchanged views with Ahmed Moaz Al-Khatib, President importance of a successful outcome on North sea cod of the National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and and mackerel. Opposition Forces. 91WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 92WS

Ministers agreed conclusions on Syria, expressing Approval of the EU position and provisional agenda for the their concern at the deteriorating situation, and the 13th meeting of the EU-Armenia Co-operation Council, to need for greater protection of civilians. The conclusions take place on 17 December in Brussels. state that Adoption of a decision on the signing, on behalf of the European Union, of a protocol to the partnership and “the EU accepts (the National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary co-operation agreement with the Republic of Armenia, which and Opposition Forces) as legitimate representatives of the Syrian will allow the participation of Armenia in EU programmes. people”. It forwarded the draft decision on conclusion of the protocol The conclusions reiterated that to the European Parliament for its consent. “if concerns about war crimes and crimes against humanity are A review of the list of persons, groups and entities subject to not adequately addressed on a national level, the International EU restrictive measures with a view to combating terrorism, Criminal Court should deal with the situation”, according to common position 2001/931/CFSP. No changes and called upon the United Nations Security Council were made to the measures, which currently affect 11 persons and 25 groups and entities. “to urgently address the situation in Syria in all aspects”. Approval of preparations for the annual review of EU Ministers expressed their concern about the situation restrictive measures against Iran. in Egypt, ahead of the planned referendum on Adoption of the implementation plan for the EU advisory 15 December. They agreed that it was in the EU’s and assistance mission for security reform in the Democratic interest to see a democratic, inclusive, economically-sound Republic of the Congo (EUSEC RD Congo) for the period Egypt, and noted the need for strong EU engagement until 30 September 2013. with Egypt, based upon mutual accountability. GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL Ministers discussed the situation in Libya. The High A provisional report of the meeting and all conclusions Representative stated that there had been a number of adopted can be found at: positive developments in Libya, politically and economically, http://www.consilium.europa.eu/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/ and that the EU now needed to develop co-operation in pressData/EN/genaff/134235.pdf border management and security. Ministers welcomed Statute of the Court of Justice of the European Union the fact-finding mission, which had demonstrated significant Libyan political will to engage. Ministers noted that the The GAC discussed the issue of the appointment of EU needed to build on and sustain contacts with the nine additional judges for the General Court of the Libyan authorities and UN so that international efforts Court of Justice of the European Union. The presidency were co-ordinated and met Libyan requirements. presented their proposals, suggesting a rotating system between member states with a weighted allocation. I Western Balkans emphasised the importance of sufficient representation Ministers had a short discussion on western Balkans of judges from a common law background and stressed issues. This was one of a series of western Balkans the need to ensure that the proposals were budget related meetings building up to the General Affairs neutral. There was no consensus on this issue which will Council discussion of the enlargement conclusions. The be revisited next year. High Representative briefed Ministers on the latest European Semester and the Annual Growth Survey developments in the Belgrade/Pristina dialogue, noting that the successful opening of two crossing points was a The Commission presented the main priorities for significant step in terms of integrated border management this year’s annual growth survey, stressing that member implementation. Member states welcomed the leadership states must “stay the course” on fiscal consolidation of Baroness Ashton on this issue. The need to maintain and structural reforms if the EU is to achieve long-term, a credible EU perspective for Macedonia was also raised. sustainable growth. The incoming Irish Presidency then outlined their road map for handling the process in Council Conclusions Council, focusing on the importance of bilateral dialogue As I anticipated in my pre-Council statement, Ministers and multilateral surveillance to resolve member states’ agreed conclusions without discussion on Ukraine and concerns relating to country specific recommendations. the Democratic Republic of the Congo. In addition, Preparation for the December European Council and Ministers approved the crisis management concept for a February European Council common security and defence policy military mission aimed at providing training and advice to the Malian The presidency announced the agenda for the February armed forces; and the revised crisis management concept European Council, which is due to focus on trade and for the EU training mission for Somalia. In the light of external relations. The outcome of the December European the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea’s recent Council will be covered in the Prime Minister’s statement announcement of its plan to launch a satellite, in breach to the House of Commons and the Leader of the of UN Security Council Resolutions, the Council agreed House of Lords’ statement to the House of Lords. conclusions expressing deep concern, urging the DPRK The 18-month programme for the Presidencies of Ireland, not to conduct the launch, and signalling the need for Lithuania and Greece an international response, potentially including sanctions, The GAC endorsed the programme of the incoming were the launch to go ahead. trio of presidencies; Ireland, Lithuania and Greece. The Ministers agreed without discussion a number of programme covers a broad range of priorities for the others measures, including: next 18-month period. For Ireland, the key was Approval of the EU position and provisional agenda for the strengthening economic and monetary union, implementing 13th meeting of the EU-Azerbaijan Co-operation Council, agreed reforms to economic governance, and securing to take place on 17 December in Brussels. financial stability including banking union. Ireland Approval of the EU position and provisional agenda for the also looked for progress on the multi-annual financial 13th meeting of the EU-Georgia Co-operation Council, to framework and related dossiers. They underlined the take place on 18 December in Brussels. importance of measures which have the potential to improve 93WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 94WS competitiveness and create jobs and growth. Finally, The Council looked forward to Croatia’s accession they also want to see progress on third-country trade and welcomed progress made by Iceland and Montenegro. agreements. I will continue to update Parliament on future Foreign Enlargement Affairs Councils and General Affairs Councils. The GAC discussion focused on Macedonia, Serbia and Kosovo. The Council agreed a package of conclusions HEALTH on enlargement including important steps forward for several countries, which rightly recognise their progress so far. Science and Technology Committee Inquiry The Council made its commitment to Macedonia’s EU path clear with the Council taking a possible decision The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman on opening accession negotiations during the next Lamb): My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, presidency, based on a report to be presented by the Department of Health, Earl Howe, has made the following European Commission in spring 2013 on progress relating written ministerial statement: to good neighbourly relations and movement on the The Government have today laid before Parliament their response name issue. This is an important and valuable opportunity to the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee for Macedonia to move further forward next year, inquiry into the regulation of medical implants in the UK and the and we look forward to a positive decision to open EU (Cm 8496). accession negotiations soon. I welcome, in that regard, The Government welcome the Committee’s report and its focus on the importance of increasing transparency and accountability the Commission starting preparatory work. Likewise in the regulation of medical implants. The Government agree the Government are pleased that the Commission will with the Committee on: propose negotiating directives to take forward Kosovo’s strengthening transparency; EU path with a stabilisation and association agreement, improving the consistent quality of notified bodies across once Kosovo meets the short-term conditions. This will the EU; be a significant step forward for Kosovo. increasing access to scientific expertise; The High Representative briefed again on the EU-led limiting the burden on small and medium-sized enterprises; dialogue between Serbia and Kosovo. I set out the UK building on the current regulatory system; Government’s continued firm support for Serbia’s introducing stricter rules on when manufacturers can rely on EU future. The Council undertook to review during clinical data which is sourced from studies on a similar the first half of next year progress on the conditions device; and the Council has agreed for Serbia to open accession improving the environment for clinical investigations. negotiations, including progress in the dialogue and The Government are committed to further considering the irreversible progress on the parallel structures in northern Committee’s recommendations on requiring health care professionals to report serious adverse incidents and introducing a “Black Kosovo, as reiterated by the High Representative. The Triangle Scheme”, which currently exists as a voluntary scheme Council was clear that it wanted to see Serbia moving to for medicines, to medical devices. The Government will continue the next stage as soon as they have met the conditions to consult with the National Joint Registry for England and to do so. The recent steps taken in the EU-led dialogue Wales (NJR) on the Committee’s recommendation to publish raw between Serbia and Kosovo had shown that both countries data from the NJR. can move forward and deal with difficult issues, enabling As regards the Committee’s criticism that the Medicines and them to continue on their European paths. I welcomed Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) reacted too the steps taken by the parties so far and I endorsed the slowly to Australian data on the safety problems of metal-on-metal Council’s commendation for Prime Ministers Dacic hips, the Government would like to reiterate that the MHRA was the first regulatory authority in the world to issue advice on and Thaci; they had approached their recent discussions monitoring and patient management in April 2010. The analysis in a statesmanlike and courageous manner. The Council of data from the National Joint Registry for England and Wales expected the two sides to continue and accelerate their was key to the worldwide action to recall the particular metal-on-metal work in addressing all aspects of the relations between hip system in August 2010. them. The conclusions on Bosnia and Herzegovina set out Health Allocations 2013-14 the Council’s concern about the slow progress being made in Bosnia and Herzegovina and stalled reforms there; and the risk that Bosnia and Herzegovina will lag The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): further behind her neighbours unless the political leaders Today I am informing the House that the NHS deliver on the actions they have agreed. The GAC called Commissioning Board has announced the allocations on the Bosnian leaders to act, in the interests of their to clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) for 2013-14 citizens. of £63.4 billion. The board’s overriding objective is to improve outcomes The Council conclusions also covered Albania, reflecting for patients and to reduce health inequalities. Together recent progress and underlining the need to further with ensuring stability during transition, this has driven intensify efforts as identified by the Commission. The the decisions the board has taken in the approach to successful conduct of parliamentary elections in 2013 allocations for next year. will be a crucial test for the smooth functioning of the All CCGs will receive an identical increase of 2.3%, country’s democratic institutions. which will ensure that funding is stable in the first year of The Council adopted forward-looking conclusions the new commissioning arrangements and supports a on Turkey which will allow the accession process to be smooth transition. The board is also initiating a review taken forward in 2013. of the approach to allocations, not just confined to 95WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 96WS

CCG allocations, to give the best opportunity to improve Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Act 2012 outcomes for patients and tackle health inequalities. Full details of the allocations have been placed in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Library and can be seen at: www.commissioning board. (Mrs Helen Grant): In a written ministerial statement— nhs.uk/files/2012/12/ccg-allocations-13-141.pdf. Copies 12 July 2012, Official Report, column 145WS about the are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Act 2010 the to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. then Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) undertook to make a further statement in the autumn. JUSTICE The Ministry of Justice is continuing to prepare the way for the commencement of the 2010 Act at the earliest practicable date. Bill of Rights (Commission) We are very grateful to the Association of British Insurers, the Association of Personal Injury Lawyers and the Law Commission for their assistance in connection The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice with the preparation of the Act for commencement. (Chris Grayling): Today, in accordance with a timetable I will make a further statement before the end of the set in its terms of reference, the Commission on a Bill of current session of Parliament. Rights has delivered its final report jointly to the Deputy Prime Minister and to me. The Government thank the Commission for the diligent PRIME MINISTER manner in which it has discharged its task. This reflected the remit set out in the coalition’s programme for Government for establishing a Commission to examine Government Equalities Office the creation of a British Bill of Rights that “incorporates and builds on all our obligations under the The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am today European Convention on Human Rights, ensures that these confirming a machinery of government change concerning rights continue to be enshrined in British law, and protects and extends British liberties”. the Government Equalities Office. We will now give the report careful consideration. The Government Equalities Office now reports to the Minister for Womenand Equalities who is also the Secretary of State for Culture Media and Sport. The Government Equalities Office is now formally a part of the Department Mesothelioma Claims (Reform) for Culture, Media and Sport.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant): Today I am announcing the TRANSPORT Government’s intention to consult publicly on proposals to reform the way that mesothelioma cases are dealt with, including; introducing fixed legal fees for EU Transport Council mesothelioma claims, a dedicated pre-action protocol for those claims and an electronic portal on which the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport claims will be registered. The consultation will be issued (Stephen Hammond): I will attend the last Transport in spring 2013. The aim is to ensure that these claims Council of the Cypriot presidency (the presidency) are processed and settled as quickly as possible given taking place in Brussels on Thursday 20 December. the nature of this disease. The Council will be asked to reach a general approach As part of that consultation, we will carry out the on the proposal for a directive of the European Parliament review required under section 48 of the Legal Aid, and the Council on periodic road worthiness tests for Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 on motor vehicles and their trailers and repealing directive the effect of the changes to the recoverability of conditional 2009/40/EC. I was very concerned when we first received fee agreement success fees and after the event insurance the proposal from the Commission. The Commission’s premiums. We intend to publish the outcome of that impact assessment was inadequate and failed to make review next autumn. the required links between the costs and benefits of new Mesothelioma is an aggressive and terminal occupational requirements. It was also incomplete as it did not accurately disease with an average life expectancy of less than two assess costs in all member states. Our initial analysis years from diagnosis. A claim for compensation can was that it would cost over £1 billion pounds to implement take up to two years to settle which means that sufferers while having an insignificant positive impact on road often die before their claims are paid out. safety in the UK. The Government consider that it is imperative that The position we adopted during the negotiation of these claims are settled quickly and that early payment the draft periodic roadworthiness regulation at Council of compensation is made so as to ease the sufferings of working group meetings has been to resist additional victims of this dreadful disease and give some assurance burdens where insignificant road safety benefit was that their dependants will be financially secure when identified. With the support of the UK and other they are no longer around. However, this cannot be member states in resisting excessive burdens, the presidency achieved without a speedy pre-litigation process which has proposed moving from a regulation to a directive is why the Government have decided to consult on how and has made substantial changes to the text that best to reduce delays in these cases. radically simplifies the implementation of the proposal. 97WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 98WS

Progress has been positive and has resulted in a for a dedicated fund to provide for essential maintenance substantially improved and less expensive proposal to renew, repair and extend life of the highway network and as such I hope the presidency will be able to achieve in England. a general approach on the dossier. I am today publishing further details about how this The presidency will provide a progress report on two fund will operate. Of the £333 million, I have allocated other proposals. £215 million of this fund to local highway authorities in The first is the proposal for a regulation of the England, with £140 million to be allocated in 2013-14 European Parliament and of the Council establishing and £75 million in 2014-15. The remainder will be the connecting Europe facility. The UK abstained from allocated to the Highways Agency for work on the the partial general approach agreed on this dossier at strategic road network. the June Transport Council. While we were broadly It will be for individual local highway authorities to supportive of the text of the regulation we could not target the extra funds where it is most needed, for formally support agreement to the draft regulations in example on priorities such as road resurfacing, maintenance advance of an agreement on the overall multi-annual to bridges or repairing damage to the highway infrastructure financial framework (MFF) negotiations as this could caused by severe weather events, such as the recent prejudge the overall MFF budget. flooding which had affected many colleagues’constituencies. The second is the proposal for a regulation of the To promote greater transparency I am also writing to European Parliament and of the Council on the local authorities explaining that each one will need to implementation and exploitation of European satellite commit to publishing a short statement on its website at navigation systems. The UK supports the thrust of the the end of each financial year setting out on what and proposal in introducing a clearer, stable governance where (in terms of location) this additional funding has arrangement for the programme but has concerns that been spent, and how it has complemented (rather than some of the European Parliament’s proposed amendments, displaced) planned highway maintenance expenditure. I such as the introduction of funding for applications to am also encouraging local authorities to consider how use the navigation systems, could have significant financial to minimise the disruption to business and other road implications. users while the works are ongoing. The Council will adopt conclusions on the communication on “EU’s External Aviation Policy— Addressing Future Challenges”. The UK welcomed WORK AND PENSIONS this timely communication from the Commission and has been actively engaged in the drafting of Council Independent Living Support conclusions. We support the broad aims of the communication—liberalisation of aviation and fair The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work competition—and we are pushing to ensure that the and Pensions (Esther McVey): The independent living Council’s conclusions reflect this. fund (ILF) was created in 1988 when direct payments The Council will also adopt a proposal for a Council could not be made by local authorities and there was decision on the signature, on behalf of the EU, and very limited choice and control available for disabled provisional application of the Euro-Mediterranean aviation people within the mainstream system. Since its inception agreement between the EU and its member states, on the ILF has played a valuable role in demonstrating the one part, and the state of Israel, on the other. The that disabled people, including those with complex care UK supports the signature and implementation of this needs, could and should be able to purchase their own agreement which forms a part of the EU’s external support using direct cash payments. The Government aviation policy to negotiate comprehensive air services wish to pay tribute to the current and previous boards agreements with neighbouring countries. This agreement of trustees as well as the ILF staff for developing a will supersede the current bilateral agreements between model of support based around choice and control and individual member states and Israel. It aims at gradual the principle of independent living. market opening, promoting regulatory (e.g. safety) However, the care system has undergone fundamental harmonisation and the promotion of open and fair reform since the creation of the ILF.Since the mid-1990s competition between air carriers. disabled people have been able to receive direct payments This agreement will integrate the Israeli aviation market and can now exercise enhanced choice and control into the European single market accompanied by through the mainstream system in all parts of the UK. convergence with EU aviation regulations. It will enhance In December 2010, following a suspension to new opportunities for EU airlines and investors in Israel, applications, the Government announced that the fund provide consumer benefits as a result of increased would be permanently closed to new applications. The competition and better access, and help to strengthen Government also committed to protecting user funding the economic links between the EU and Israel. for the rest of this parliament and consulting on how Under any other business, the Commission will provide users would be supported after 2015. information on the cleaner power for transport package On 12 October 2012 the Government completed this and aviation emissions trading scheme (ETS). consultation which received around 2,000 responses. The consultation asked for comments on the proposal Roads Maintenance to close the ILF in 2015 and devolve funding to local government in England and the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales. It also asked how this transition The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick could be managed effectively if this proposal was adopted. McLoughlin): In the autumn statement earlier this month The Government response to the consultation will be the Chancellor announced an additional £333 million published later today. 99WS Written Ministerial Statements18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 100WS

It is clear from the responses to the consultation that To ensure a smooth transition the Government and the the prospect of the ILF closing is causing current users ILF will be working with the social care sector in England anxiety, and that the fund has played a really important to produce a code of practice to guide local authorities role in the lives of users and their families. But we also on how ILF users can be supported through the transition. heard that the ILF has had its problems, that the I expect that the devolved Administrations in Scotland, current arrangement is unsustainable and that local Wales and Northern Ireland will engage with the ILF to authorities face challenges in supporting disabled people develop processes and guidance reflecting the distinct in a consistent and equitable manner given the complex approaches to care and support in those parts of the UK. way in which ILF funding interacts with local authority The ILF will also be conducting a transfer review funding for each user. programme over the next two years which will ensure that the details of the care arrangements are captured We have considered all views carefully and, while I and shared with their local authority and help those understand user concerns, I do not think the current users not currently receiving any local authority funding situation is sustainable. Our commitment to maintaining to engage with the mainstream care system so they can current awards until 2015 remains, but on 31 March 2015 access the services they are eligible for. the ILF will close, and from that point local authorities The ILF will now begin an intensive and ongoing in England, in line with their statutory responsibilities, programme of engagement with users and key stakeholders on will have sole responsibility for meeting the eligible care how the transition process will work. Users can expect and support needs of current ILF users. The devolved clear and ongoing communication throughout the next Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland two years and through the transition process. will determine how ILF users in each of those parts of I would be pleased to meet Members from both sides the UK are supported within their distinct care and of this House to discuss how ILF users in their area can support systems. Funding will be devolved to each local be successfully transitioned to receiving support solely authority and to the devolved Administrations on the from the mainstream care and support system administered basis of the pattern of expenditure in 2014-15. by local authorities. 7P Petitions18 DECEMBER 2012 Petitions 8P

needs, and check that the person setting up the controls Petitions is over 18. The Government are also making clear that every part of the industry should be working on family- Tuesday 18 December 2012 friendly internet access which is easy to use, and that we would like to see all internet-enabled devices equipped with tools to help keep children safe. OBSERVATIONS

TREASURY EDUCATION Nippers Nursery, Leicester “Opt-in” filter for internet service providers The Petition of staff and parents of Nippers Nursery, Saxon House, Leicester, The Petition of a local women’s group in Wiltshire, Declares that on 30 November Nippers Nursery will Declares that the Petitioners regard the accessibility be closed by HMRC and that the reason given is that of adult and pornographic material on the internet as there is a declining number of children attending; further having harmful effects on young people, both girls and that the Petitioners believe that this is simply not true boys; notes that a similar petition has been signed by and that Nippers Nursery is a valuable, viable and 17 people; further notes the campaign of the Member well-loved local nursery used by staff of HMRC and of Parliament for Devizes to require internet service local parents alike. providers to introduce an “opt-in” filter for accessing adult material online, and declares the Petitioners’ support The Petitioners therefore request that the House of for this campaign. Commons urges Her Majesty’s Treasury to reverse the decision to close Nippers Nursery. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage internet And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Jonathan service providers to have an “opt-in” filter to prevent Ashworth, Official Report, 20 November 2012; Vol. 553, children accessing adult or pornographic material on c. 552.] the internet. [P001134] And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Duncan Observations from the Secretary of State for the Treasury: Hames, Official Report, 18 September 2012; Vol. 550, On 30 November, this nursery, run by private sector c. 7P.] provider Bright Horizons, closed. The nursery operated [P001121] from HMRC’s premises in Saxon House Leicester. HMRC Observations from the Secretary of State for Education: decided not to renew the contract for this (and seven The Government, through the UK Council for Child other nurseries) in March 2012 and informed Bright Internet Safety (UKCCIS), have recently consulted on Horizons of this in May 2012. options for parental internet controls which would improve As part of the decision, HMRC considered the usage children’s safety online. The consultation responses made of the Nippers nursery, which at the time was only very clear that parents want to take responsibility for 61% (around 30% of those parents worked for HMRC). their children’s online safety, and there was no majority Of course the numbers may have changed slightly from support for any of the three options consulted on, month to month but it is clear that even when the including “opt-in”filtering (i.e. default filtering at network accommodation and utilities were provided free by HMRC level). and a subsidy offered to HMRC parents, the nursery Through UKCCIS, the Government have been was not full. In addition, HMRC was providing subsidised encouraging the information and communication industries, accommodation within its offices for a nursery that was including internet service providers (ISPs) to ensure used primarily by people who did not work there. That that parents face an unavoidable choice in whether or was not sustainable so the decision was taken to end the not to have parental controls installed on their internet contract. service or devices. Expert advice is that children have There has been a lot of speculation about whether the greatest protection online if their parents engage HMRC will use the space that was occupied by the with the issues on their children’s access to the internet. nursery. HMRC recently closed its office at Attenborough Relying on default filters on the internet does not House and moved the staff to Saxon House. Next year, encourage parents to engage with the issues and take HMRC will close its other office in Leicester (Citygate responsibility for their children’s safety. It is not possible House) and again staff will move into Saxon House. to filter all the potentially harmful content, helpful sites As a result, HMRC has greater need for the space could be blocked as well as harmful ones, and filters do within Saxon House. Therefore, it could not continue not deal with harms such as bullying, abuse or grooming. to provide space to an external service provider when Following the consultation, the Government now it needs it to better enable its core purpose and, at wish to go further than their previous approach. We are the same time, meet Government targets to reduce the asking ISPs to prompt the setting up of parental controls estates footprint and costs associated. by existing customers as well as new ones, allow those The Government will not be overturning HMRC’s controls to be tailored more to individual children’s decision.

671W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 672W

The Department for Transport allocated Halton Borough Written Answers to Council £39,582 in 2009-10 and £40,597 in 2010-11 in Rural Bus Subsidy Grant (RBSG) for the provision of Questions additional local bus services to rural communities. In line with the Government’s drive to simplify local funding, Tuesday 18 December 2012 RBSG payments ended in 2010/11. In 2010/11 and 2011/12, the Department made two payments of £6,766 with the aim of kick-starting and supporting community transport as part of the Supporting Community Transport TRANSPORT Fund. Bus operators running local registered bus services in British Transport Police the Halton Borough Council area are able to claim Bus Service Operators Grant. Although data relating to the Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for amount claimed by operators is not available broken Transport what proportion of British Transport Police down by local authority area, the following links provide time was allocated to investigation of each category of information on payments made to individual operators crime in each of the last five years. [134140] for claims covering the periods up to (i) 31 March 2010 and (ii) 31 March 2011: Mr Simon Burns: This information is not held by the http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110504135837/ Department for Transport but by the British Transport http:/www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/buses/busgrants/bsog/ Police who can be contacted at: British Transport Police, 661224 25 Camden Road, London NW1 9LN, E-mail: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ [email protected] attachment_data/file/3258/bsog-qrants-paid-2011.pdf

Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for EU Law Transport what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for ensuring effective co-operation between the British Transport (1) which EU directives his Department Transport Police and other police forces. [134141] transposed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which EU Mr Simon Burns: Effective co-operation between the directives his Department expects to transpose in (i) British Transport Police and other police forces is an 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he operational matter which is dealt with by the respective has made of the cost of each such directive to the (A) chief constables. The Secretary of State for Transport, public purse and (B) private sector; [133713] my right hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales (2) which regulations his Department introduced as (Mr McLoughlin), does not get involved in such matters. a result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which regulations his Department expects to Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) 2013 and Transport whether he has made an assessment of areas (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he has made for potential improvement in co-ordination between of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) public the British Transport Police and other police forces. purse and (B) private sector. [133714] [134142] Stephen Hammond: A table giving details of regulations Mr Simon Burns: Assessment of potential improvements which were introduced as a result of European Union of co-ordination between the British Transport Police (EU) legislation in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 has been and other police forces is an operational matter which is placed in the House Library, and sent directly to your dealt with by the respective chief constables. The Secretary office. The Explanatory Memorandum to each regulation of State for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member states which directive it transposes. for Derbyshire Dales (Mr McLoughlin), does not get In order to increase transparency, in the forthcoming involved in such matters. Statement of New Regulation (SNR5) the Government will, for the first time, be publishing those new EU Bus Services: Halton measures which are being implemented in UK law and have a direct effect on business. The statement will Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for include a list of regulations that will be introduced for Transport how much funding his Department has the period between 1 January 2013 and 30 June 2013. allocated for the provision of bus services in Halton Directives we expect to transpose after 30 June 2013 Borough Council area in each financial year since include those listed in a table which I have also placed in 2009-10. [133925] the House Library and sent to your office. This information is inevitably less complete as work on transposition of Norman Baker: Halton Borough Council can procure measures is generally less advanced than for those in the tendered local bus services where commercial routes are nearer future and further measures are likely to be not viable. As funding is provided through the main agreed with implementation dates before the end of 2015. Local Government Formula Grant, an unhypothecated block grant allocated by the Department for Communities Estimates of the cost of regulation to the private and Local Government, it is not possible to say how sector and the public purse are detailed in the Impact much is allocated to Halton Borough Council for the Assessments which are published on the provision of bus services. www.legislation.gov.uk 673W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 674W website for regulations that were introduced in 2011 and Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has 2012. The table listing regulations includes links to the made no estimate of these costs. relevant Impact Assessments in the right hand column. These Impact Assessments show the impact in the UK Official Cars of transposed directives. In some cases, for example where more than one set of regulations is produced, Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for there may be more than one Impact Assessment. In Transport which Ministers in his Department have such cases, the impact of the directive will be the sum of been allocated Government cars; and what the last the relevant Impact Assessments. dates were on which such cars were used by each For regulations of EU origin to be introduced in Minister for (a) individual and (b) pool car use. 2013 and beyond Impact Assessments are normally [133796] published with consultation documents although the Stephen Hammond: With the introduction of a costs detailed on these are subject to change as a result departmental pool car service on 1 April 2012, individual of the consultations. Ministers are no longer allocated Government cars. The Secretary of State and Minister of State use the pool Great Western Railway Line cars on a daily basis. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for I use the pool cars occasionally and also use the Transport what payments his Department expects to top-up service as business requires it. receive from the operator of the Great Western rail The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. franchise over the next three years. [133726] Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), used the car on an extremely occasional basis for journeys of less than Mr Simon Burns: The payments over the next three three miles, the last date being 20 November 2012. years will initially comprise those payable under the current First Great Western franchise agreement. Payments Railways: Franchises after that franchise agreement terminates will depend on how continuity of train services is secured. That will Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for depend on the Department for Transport’s response to Transport what his policy is on agreeing management the Brown Review, which is due to report by the end of contracts for the operation of rail franchises for more December. than 13 months without a tendering competition; and if he will make a statement. [133734] Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he or officials in his Department Mr Simon Burns: Once the Secretary of State for have met representatives of FirstGroup to discuss Transport has received the Brown review, the Department granting that company an extension to its Great expects to refresh its Statement of Policy on the Exercise Western rail franchise. [133727] of the Secretary of State’s Power Under Section 26(1) Mr Simon Burns: Exploratory discussions have been of the Railways Act 1993, which sets out the Department’s held about the options for securing continuity of train policy on award without tendering for the operation of services after the current First Great Western franchise rail franchises. terminates on 31 March 2013. Decisions on the future Railways: Norwich of this franchise will depend on the Department for Transport’s response to the Brown Review, which is due Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for to report by the end of December. Transport on how many occasions bus transport Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for replaced rail for all or part of the journey due to (a) Transport whether he plans to extend the Great routine and (b) non-routine maintenance of the Western franchise with First Group without a franchise Norwich to London Liverpool Street railway line in (i) competition; and if he will make a statement. [133737] 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012 to date. [133992] Mr Simon Burns: The Great Western franchise Invitation Norman Baker: The Department does not hold this to Tender published on 27 July said that the new franchise information. Engineering possessions are managed between would start on 21 July. This implied an extension of Network Rail and the train operator, and mitigations four four-weekly periods to the current First Great are implemented on a case by case basis, and may not Western franchise after its current termination date of necessitate bus replacement services. Where bus replacement 31 March 2013. The First Great Western franchise services are necessary, it is the responsibility of the agreement provides that the Secretary of State for Transport Train Operator to procure and advertise the services to may call an extension of up to seven four-weekly periods. passengers. Decisions on the longer-term future of this franchise I personally hold Network Rail and Train Operating will depend on the Department for Transport’s response Companies to account at monthly Performance meetings to the Brown review, which is due to report by the end and I have recently asked Network Rail to look at how of December. well it has managed possessions. Immigration Roads Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will estimate the additional cost of the Transport what assessment he has made of the delivery of those public services for which his maintenance backlog of (a) roads and (b) pavements Department is responsible arising from inward on the non-strategic highways network in England; and migration since 1997. [134296] if he will make a statement. [134201] 675W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 676W

Norman Baker: No assessment has been made. Department in (a) Suffolk, (b) Norfolk, (c) Essex, Roads and pavements on the non-strategic highway (d) Cambridgeshire, (e) Bedfordshire, (f) network in England are managed by, and are the Hertfordshire, (g) Kent and (h) Greater London. responsibility of, local highway authorities. It is for [134468] individual authorities to assess maintenance needs and prioritise accordingly. Norman Baker: The most recent data available for The Department for Transport does, however, recognise total public expenditure on transport is given in HM the importance of the local highway network and is Treasury’s Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses for providing over £3 billion to local highway authorities 2011/12. Counties (a) to (f) equate to the East of from 2011 to 2015 for highways maintenance. We also England region and the identifiable expenditure on provided a further £200 million in March 2011 for them transport services there is £278 per head, (g) Kent is to repair potholes on the local road network damaged part of the South East region where the expenditure on by the severe winter weather at the end of 2010. transport services is £207 per head. (h) Expenditure on transport services in London is £644 per head. Equivalent As announced in the December 2012 Autumn Statement, data is not available below regional level. the Department for Transport will be providing an additional £333 million capital funding over the next West Coast Railway Line: Franchises two financial years to 2015 for essential highways maintenance on both the strategic and local highway Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for network. Details of allocations to local highway authorities Transport when he expects the implementation of the have been announced today. recommendations of the Laidlaw Review to be The funding provided by the Department for Transport complete. [133723] provides local highway authorities with the flexibility to use their local knowledge and experience to decide how Mr Simon Burns: I refer the hon. Member to the to prioritise expenditure. Department’s response to the Laidlaw Inquiry report, which has been deposited in the Libraries of the House. The Department has started implementing the Roads: Snow and Ice recommendations of the Laidlaw Inquiry. Some elements of this work are dependent on the final findings of the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Brown Review. The Department will set a time scale for Transport (1) if he will estimate the cost of gritting implementation when it has received the report of the roads in winter 2012-13; [133858] Brown Review. (2) what steps he has taken to ensure sufficient salt is available for road gritting in winter 2012-13. [133859] Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether Sam Laidlaw carried out a full trawl Norman Baker: Based on the data within the Department of departmental emails during the compilation of his for Communities and Local Government National Statistics final report. [133724] release “Local Authority Revenue Expenditure and Financing England 2011-12 Final Outturn” published Mr Simon Burns: There was insufficient time for a on 27 November 2012, the total gross expenditure for full e-mail capture and review to be carried out by the winter service, including salting roads, by local authorities Laidlaw Inquiry team due to time pressures. However, in England was £175 million. Information for 2012/13 is the Inquiry team did review a number of e-mails made not yet available. available by the Department, including e-mails captured for the purpose of the Department’s HR investigations. The overall cost of winter maintenance activity, including In his report, Sam Laidlaw states that he is satisfied that salting roads, by the Highways Agency who are responsible he was provided with a proper evidential basis for for the strategic road network, is estimated to be around making the findings set out in his report. £20 million for winter 2012-13. I refer to my previous answer to him on 28 November Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012, Official Report, column 5340W,in which I explained Transport what the cost to his Department was of the that I had written to all hon. Members on 23 November work done to compile the (a) interim and (b) final 2012 setting out the steps that the Department for report of the Laidlaw Review. [133725] Transport and the wider transport sector have taken in advance of any possible severe winter weather. This Mr Simon Burns: The Laidlaw Inquiry was letter that has been placed in both Libraries of the commissioned as a single piece of work therefore it is House highlights the steps we have taken with respect to not possible to disaggregate the cost attributed to the road salt for this winter period. interim report and final report. The cost of the Laidlaw Inquiry are yet to be finalised as not all of the invoices In a survey conducted by the Department at end relating to the review have been received. The November 2012, total salt stocks for England, including Department’s best estimate of the final cost of the strategic salt stockpiles, is approximately 1.8 million Laidlaw Inquiry is £3.55 million. tonnes of salt. This highlights that highway authorities are continuing to hold robust salt stocks. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he or his officials received advice on Transport: East of England the risk of legal action by (a) the EU Commission and (b) bidders in the cancelled franchise competition for Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Intercity West Coast Mainline following his Transport what recent estimate he has made of average decision to agree a management contract with Virgin spending per head of the population by his Rail. [133732] 677W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 678W

Mr Simon Burns: The Secretary of State for Transport franchise through to November 2014. The new franchise carried out his duties and obligations within the Railways agreement acknowledges that, subject to both parties Act 1993 and within domestic and European procurement agreeing, the commercial terms could be re-negotiated law. The UK Government does not normally comment to transfer greater risk to VRG and Virgin Trains; this on its dealings with the European Commission or other negotiation could include VRG and Virgin Trains earning European institutions. Any such discussions or dealings, a higher margin. whenever they do take place, are confidential. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the cost to Transport what the cost to the taxpayer is of the fee his Department of implementing in full the agreed by his Department with Virgin Rail for the recommendations of the Laidlaw Inquiry, December running of the Intercity West Coast Mainline as a 2012. [133801] percentage of revenue. [133733] Mr Simon Burns: The Department will be able to Mr Simon Burns: The fee that we have agreed to pay estimate the cost of implementing the recommendations Virgin Rail Group is 1% margin on revenue earned. of the Laidlaw Inquiry when this work has been scoped. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for HOME DEPARTMENT Transport how much his Department has spent on (a) external legal advice and (b) other external Databases: EU Countries consultancy on negotiating the management contract with Virgin Rail for the Intercity West Coast Mainline. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home [133738] Department pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 5 December 2012, Official Report, Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not yet been column 65WS, on the Justice and Home Affairs billed for all of the work undertaken by external advisers Council, what report was made by the EU presidency in support of its negotiations with Virgin Rail. The at the Council meeting regarding information exchange Department will monitor these costs closely and be in the context of the Prüm treaty. [134384] fully transparent in keeping the House informed when the final costs become available. James Brokenshire: As reported in the written ministerial statement of 13 December 2012, Official Report, columns Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for 58-62WS, at the Justice and Home Affairs Council of Transport what the value is of the premium payments 6 and 7 December, the presidency provided a general he expects to receive from Virgin Rail in (a) the first report on obstacles related to effective information year and (b) the remaining period of the operation of exchange but focused on the Swedish initiative on police the Intercity West Coast management contract. information rather than the Prüm arrangements pertaining [133739] to DNA, vehicle registration and fingerprint data. However, on 7 December 2012, the Commission published a Mr Simon Burns: The expected premium for the part report to the European Parliament and the Council on year from 9 December 2012 to 31 March 2013 is the implementation of Council Decision 2008/615/JHA £7.3 million. The amount of premium for the remainder establishing the arrangements for operating data exchange of the operation of the contract has not yet been set under Prüm. This was deposited with the European and will be agreed or determined as part of the annual Scrutiny Committee on 13 December (document budget setting process. COM(2012) 732); an Explanatory Memorandum setting out the Government position will follow. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he consulted the European Entry Clearances: Indian Subcontinent Commission before deciding to extend the management contract negotiated with Virgin Rail to Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made of operate the Intercity West Coast mainline. [133740] the reasons for the difference in refusal rates of visa Mr Simon Burns: The Secretary of State carried out applications from Indian nationals and from Pakistani his duties and obligations within the Railways Act 1993 nationals in 2011. [133590] and within domestic and European procurement law. Mr Harper: All cases are decided on their individual The UK Government do not normally comment on its merits. The Immigration Rules apply universally to dealings with the European Commission or other European those seeking to come to the UK, and the types and institutions. Any such discussions or dealings, whenever nature of application will depend on individuals themselves they do take place, are confidential. and their particular circumstances. The refusal rates reflect the nature of the applications the UK Border Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Agency receives. Transport whether the terms of the deal with Virgin Rail on operating the Intercity West Coast Mainline Entry Clearances: Iran allow the fee agreed for the first year to rise in the second year of the contract. [133751] Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department with reference to the answer of Mr Simon Burns: The agreement that has been reached 19 December 2011, Official Report, columns 924-5W, with Virgin Rail Group (VRG) and West Coast Trains on entry clearances: Iran, what steps her Department Limited (trading as Virgin Trains) is that they will has taken to implement the proposals with a third state; receive 1% margin on revenue for the term of the and if she will make a statement. [129572] 679W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 680W

Mr Harper: Sweden was appointed the UK’s protecting Statutory Instrument 2011 No. 1247 (2011) the Immigration power in Iran on 10 July 2012, but is limited to only (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2011. This providing emergency consular assistance to British amendment included changes to reflect the ECJ ruling in Metock Nationals in Iran and managing the staff and property (C-127/08); of the British embassy in Tehran. and Between 19 and 20 December 2011 UK Border Agency (b) 2012: staff, with the assistance of the German embassy, were Statutory Instrument 2012 No. 1547 the Immigration (European able to retrieve all passports and supporting documents Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2012. This amendment included changes to reflect the ECJ rulings in Lassal (C-162/09), from the Visa Section in Tehran. The UK Border Agency Dias (C-325/09), Ziolkowski (C-424/10), McCarthy (C434/09), staff contacted all affected applicants to inform them to Chen (C-200/02) and Ibrahim (C-310/08) and Teixeira (C-480/08). collect their documents from a temporary office located Statutory Instrument 2012 No. 2560 the Immigration (European at the German embassy. Over 2,000 passports were Economic Area) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012. This collected and only five Iranian passports remained amendment included changes to reflect the ECJ rulings of Ruiz uncollected and were returned to the Iranian Ministry Zambrano v. l’Office National de l’Emploi (C-34/09) and Rahman of Foreign Affairs in February 2012. The applicants (C- 83/11). were notified of this. Council Regulation (EC) No 380/2008 of 18 April 2008 amending Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002 laying down a uniform format for residence permits for third-country nationals. EU Law We do not believe that statutory instruments No. 1257, No. 1547 nor No. 2560 have significant financial Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the implications. Details of projected costs, arising from the Home Department which EU directives her transposition of the biometric residence permit regulation Department transposed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to can be found in the impact assessment, which is publicly date; which EU directives her Department expects to available. The overall cost, including rollout, is estimated transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and at £103 million. It is not possible to say what regulations what estimate she has made of the cost of each such the Home Office expects to implement as a result of EU directive to the (A) public purse and (B) private sector. legislation in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years. However, [133705] there are a number of ongoing negotiations, including EURODAC and the Dublin (III) regulations, that may James Brokenshire: The Home Office did not transpose require the Home Office to adopt further regulations any EU directives in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012. within the next two years. The Home Office expects to transpose the following EU directives in (i) 2013: Human Trafficking Directive 2010/63/EU on the protection of animals used for scientific purposes; Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the UK Border Agency Directive 2011/36/EU on preventing and combating trafficking in human beings and protecting its victims, and replacing Council targets specific flights as part of its strategy to tackle Framework Decision 2002/629/JHA; human trafficking. [128544] and (ii) the next two years: Mr Harper: Combating human trafficking is a high There are a number of directives currently under negotiation priority for Border Force. As part of its wider strategy or which have yet to be adopted, including the European investigation to combat organised crime, Border Force targeting teams order and the directive on attacks against information systems. It use a variety of automated and manual systems in order is possible that the Home Office will transpose these directives in to select a person for examination at the border. Through the next two years, but it is not possible to say until they have been adopted. eBorders, Border Force have the ability to track around 55% of inbound and 60% of outbound passenger and Details of projected costs arising from the transposition crew movements; equating to approximately 138 million of the directive on the protection of animals for scientific passenger movements a year on over 4,200 routes, including purposes can be found in the impact assessment: all aviation routes starting outside the EEA. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/about-us/ In addition to this tracking ability, Border Force consultations/transposition-protection-animals/protection- animals-scientific-ia?view=Binary relies on intelligence and profiles that are up-to-date in order to identify those movements worthy of further The accompanying Explanatory Memorandum to attention. the human trafficking directive states that the estimated cost of implementing the directive in the UK is £810,000 Analysis of this data and intelligence provides Border per year. Force the ability to try to identify and target in advance those people known to pose a threat, including human traffickers. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department which regulations her Department Internet introduced as a result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which regulations her Department Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for the expects to implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) Home Department how much has been spent on (a) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and what estimate she strategy and planning, (b) design and build, (c) has made of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) hosting and infrastructure, (d) content provision and public purse and (B) private sector. [133706] (e) testing and evaluation for her Department’s websites in each of the last two years; and how much James Brokenshire: The following regulations were has been allocated for each such category of introduced by the Home Office in (a) 2011: expenditure in 2012-13. [132120] 681W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 682W

James Brokenshire: The following information provided Students: Demonstrations outlines spend in 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13. The spend in these years falling under each of the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for categories (a) strategy and planning, (b) design and the Home Department (1) what the cost was of build, (c) hosting and infrastructure, (d) content provision additional policing and crowd control measures put in and (e) testing and evaluation is as follows: place for the student protest march in London on 21 November 2012; [133862] 2010-11: (2) what the cost was of additional policing and Home Office crowd control measures for all protests in Greater (a) £76,974 London in the last 12 months. [134007] (c) £760,548 (d) £18,883 Damian Green: The Home Office does not hold this information. (e) £4,700 UK Border Agency UK Border Agency (c) £336,833.03 2011-12: Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will place in the Library the Home Office contact details of UK Border Agency officials who (c) £635,076.17 could be contacted by hon. Members outside the (e) £42,921.00 working hours of the MP’s hotline. [134028] UK Border Agency Mr Harper: The UK Border Agency’s Command (c) £446,119 and Control Unit, based in Manchester is the 24/7 2012-13: contact point for such inquiries and undertakes this Home Office responsibility when the MP’s Hotline is not manned. (c) £791,716.74 Their contact number is 0161 261 1640. UK Border Agency Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for the (c) £400,788.71 Home Department whether UK Border Agency staff Figures for the Home Office for 2010-11 and 2012-13 have been made aware of the Data Protection and UK Border Agency for 2011-12 can be found in the (Processing of Sensitive Personal Data) (Elected GDS Government on the internet data transparency Representatives) Order 2002. [134030] held on the Cabinet Office website. These figures reflect the fact that much of the testing Mr Harper: The UK Border Agency staff are regularly carried out is done ‘in house’. The testing carried out by reminded of their responsibilities under the Data Protection suppliers is wrapped up in overall project or service Act 1998 and are required, every year, to undertake management costs and would be difficult to extract. training which supports this. The UK Border Agency staff who deal regularly with Mousa Abu Maria elected representatives specifically covered by the Data Protection (Processing of Sensitive Personal Data) (Elected Representatives) Order 2002 are aware of the provisions Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home of this Order. Department on what basis Mousa Abu Maria was granted an entry visa to the UK for his visit in Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for the November 2012. [131823] Home Department what training is given to UK Border Agency staff on dealing with representations by Mr Harper [holding answer 6 December 2012]: Due hon. Members; and if she will make a statement. to its obligations under the Data Protection Act, the [134032] UK Border Agency is unable to comment on an individual case. Mr Harper: Staff in the UK Border Agency who are The Government takes very seriously any suggestion responsible for dealing with representations by hon. that the presence of a particular person in this country Members receive training on the job as required. They might not be conducive to the public good. All applications also have access to regularly updated guidance materials for visas are considered on their individual merits in line to help them draft replies to MPs’ correspondence. with the Immigration Rules. UK Border Agency: Correspondence

Police: Stun Guns Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the UK Border Agency Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for the intends to reply to the letters from the hon. Member for Home Department how many police forces in England Ilford South of 30 August and 15 October 2012 and Wales have deployed tasers beyond the specialist concerning his constituent Mrs Malik and the Home role. [133731] Office case reference M1145772; and if she will make a statement. [134097] Damian Green: Taser can only be used by Authorised Firearms Officers and Specially Trained Units in accordance Mr Harper [holding answer 17 December 2012]: The with the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) UK Border Agency replied to the hon. Member on policy and guidance. 13 December 2012. 683W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 684W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT is chaired jointly by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Broadband: Rural Areas Basingstoke (Maria Miller), and the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for for Twickenham (Vince Cable). The Creative Industries Culture, Media and Sport what steps she is taking to Council met twice in 2012, in January and in June, and ensure that broadband companies are fairly charging its next meeting is scheduled for January 2013. rural customers who can only get low speeds of In addition, the Secretary of State and I each met broadband. [133730] with various representatives from the UK fashion industry last year. All meetings with external organisations are Mr Vaizey: Through effective regulation, the UK has declared quarterly, and details can be found on the one of the most competitive broadband markets in the DCMS website using the following link: world. 92% of households are connected to a local loop unbundled exchange, and wholesale access is available www.transparency.culture.gov.uk/category/other/meetings on all lines. This offers real competition and choice for consumers, including on price and quality of service. All internet service providers (ISPs) are encouraged to TREASURY sign up to Ofcom’s Code of Practice on broadband speeds, ensuring the consumer is aware of the speed of Charities: Bank Services the broadband service they will receive at the point of sale. Derek Twigg: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) if he will hold discussions with the chief Mobile Phones executive of HBOS on the decision by Halifax to withdraw some current and savings accounts for Mr Reid: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, charities; [133984] Media and Sport when she expects to appoint a (2) if he will estimate the number of charities who supplier for the Mobile Infrastructure Project. [134276] have been required to close current and savings accounts as a result of the decision by Halifax to Mr Vaizey: I expect to appoint a supplier for the withdraw some of these accounts. [133985] Mobile Infrastructure Project in the spring. Sajid Javid: Ministers and officials, as part of the Tourism process of policy development and delivery, have meetings with and receive representations from a wide variety of Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, organisations and individuals in the public and private Media and Sport whether she plans to support tourism sector. As was the case with previous Administrations, business improvement districts in each city in England. it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of [134280] such meetings and representations. The decision to offer bank accounts, and the terms Hugh Robertson: Government recognised the importance and conditions of these accounts, are for individual of business improvement districts in the recent Portas financial institutions to make on a commercial basis. review. Business improvement districts are very much partnership arrangements between local authorities and Child Benefit the business community.The Department for Communities and Local Government are currently reviewing legislation Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in order to allow for tourism business improvement what estimate he has made of the cost of the districts and expect regulations to come in force in correspondence and communication exercise with spring 2013. taxpayers in respect of forthcoming changes to child benefit policy. [133474] Tourism: North East Mr Gauke: The estimated cost for customer information Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, for the high income child benefit charge was published Media and Sport if she will undertake an impact in the Tax Information and Impact Note at Budget assessment of the potential effect of Scottish 2012: independence on tourism in the North East. [134279] www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/tiin-0620.pdf

Hugh Robertson: The Department has no current Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer plans to undertake an impact assessment of the potential what estimate he has made of the proportion of effect of Scottish independence on tourism in the north-east. taxpayers affected by the introduction of the higher rate changes to child benefit who had elected to UK Fashion and Textile Association complete a new self-assessment for tax by the deadline of 5 October 2012 in respect of the current financial Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, year. [133477] Media and Sport when she next plans to meet the UK Fashion and Textile Association. [134281] Mr Gauke: At Budget 2012, HMRC estimated that as many as 40% of those affected by the high income child Mr Vaizey: The Creative Industries Council is the benefit charge may go into self-assessment. It is expected main forum for discussion between Government and that the percentage will be lower, but no new estimate the creative industries. The Creative Industries Council has been made at this time. 685W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 686W

Ann Coffey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Greg Clark: The staff of the EIB take forward analysis if he will estimate the level the weekly rate of child associated with prospective EIB lending, including benefit will be for (a) 2011, (b) 2012 and (c) 2013 for discussions with project promoters and partners. In the (i) first child and (ii) second and subsequent these activities, they act in accordance with the rules children, if it had risen by the retail prices index in and objectives of the EIB. The EIB’s Management every year in (A) 2011, (B) 2012 and (C) 2013. [133774] Committee supervises the EIB staff in conducting these functions. Sajid Javid: The following table details the weekly child benefit rates if rates had been increased by RPI in PAYE 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14. Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the £ Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 3 December First child Subsequent child 2012, Official Report, column 596W, on PAYE, 2011-12 21.25 14.00 whether HM Revenue and Customs is able to calculate 2012-13 22.45 14.80 the accuracy rate of hash matching in the pilot; and if 2013-14 23.05 15.20 so, how. [134382]

Fairness is a fundamental aspect of the Government’s Mr Gauke: HMRC’s systems record the number of plans to reduce the deficit and protect the economy by real time information (RTI) records submitted with a ensuring that everyone pays their fair share. The change hash and the number of records where a hash has been from RPI to CPI uprating and the measures announced submitted and has been matched. at autumn statement 2012—5 December 2012, Official HMRC are working closely with those involved in the Report, columns 871-82—should therefore be considered RTI pilot to ensure the information submitted is in line alongside other decisions taken since the June 2010 with the published RTI guidance. As part of this, HMRC Budget. will be liaising with software providers to analyse possible The 2012 autumn statement builds on the Government’s causes of hash non match and ensure that payroll commitment to ensure that it pays to work; to support software generates the hash cross reference in the correct pensioners and those most in need; and to deliver a way. progressive tax and welfare system that is affordable, fair and encourages growth. The Government is providing Revenue and Customs: Washington, Tyne and Wear support for those on low and middle incomes by increasing the personal allowance by a further £235 in April 2013, meaning 2.2 million people will have been taken out of Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Chancellor of the tax by the Government’s increases in the personal allowance. Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 20 November 2012, Official Report, column 437W, for what reasons Furthermore, the Government is continuing to help he does not plan to publish the feasibility study people with the rising cost-of-living through measures considered by Ministers in respect of the decision to such as cancelling the fuel duty increase that was planned close Weardale House; for what reasons he will not be for 1 January 2013, and deferring the 2013-14 increase placing the equality impact assessment conducted to to 1 September 2013. inform the decision to close Weardale House in the public domain; and if he will take steps to ensure that Dairy Farming: Government Assistance nearby offices have the capacity to effectively accommodate staff working in Weardale House after it Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer has closed. [134432] whether any Barnett Consequentials will result from the establishment of the new Dairy Fund for England. Mr Gauke: The feasibility report on Weardale House [134447] contains personal information about staff location preferences and commercial in confidence details on building costs. For this reason, HM Revenue and Customs Danny Alexander: There will be no Barnett (HMRC) publishes headline information only, on the Consequentials arising from the establishment of the Department’s intranet site. The information on Weardale new Dairy Fund for England. This is being funded from House is planned for early 2013. within DEFRA’s existing resources. With the introduction of the 2010 Equality Act, there Ford Motor Company is no longer a requirement to produce equality impact assessments. In their place, to meet its public sector equality duty, HMRC produces equality analysis documents Mr Umunna: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for buildings which close or are due to close in the year (1) what discussions (a) he and (b) officials of his 2013-14 onwards. There is no legal requirement on Department have had with the European Investment HMRC to place these documents in the public domain. Bank (EIB) and others on the EIB loan to Ford However, they are published on its intranet site for staff Otosan; [127541] reference. (2) what meetings (a) he and (b) officials of his As outlined in the answer of 20 November 2012, Department have had with the European Investment Official Report, column 437W: Bank (EIB) and others on the EIB loan to Ford; on “HMRC constantly reviews its office requirement as its business what date each such meeting took place; and who was activities alter so that it can continue to accommodate the right present at each such meeting. [127542] number of people in the right locations.” 687W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 688W

Senior Civil Servants £217 a week, with no other income or savings if each element of the credit had risen by the retail prices index Jesse Norman: To ask the Chancellor of the in April (a) 2011, (b) 2012 and (c) 2013; and if the Exchequer what the ages are of the (a) Permanent earnings taper had remained at 39 per cent; [133780] Secretary, (b) Second Permanent Secretary and (c) (6) how much working tax credit will be received in other managing directors of his Department. [132151] 2013-14 by a couple with one child where one partner works for 35 hours a week, earning £217 a week, where Sajid Javid: The ages of the Permanent Secretary is the couple have no other income or savings; [133781] 53, the two Second Permanent Secretaries are both 43 and the managing directors are: 43, 44, 45, 48 and 57. (7) if he will estimate how much working tax credit would be received in 2013-14 by a couple with one child Surveys where one partner works for 35 hours a week, earning £217 a week, where the couple have no other income or Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Chancellor of the savings, if each element of working tax credit had risen Exchequer if he will place in the Library a copy of the by the retail prices index in April (a) 2011, (b) 2012 results of his Department’s most recent staff survey; and (c) 2013; and if the earnings taper had remained which organisation carried out the survey; and what at 39 per cent. [133782] the cost of the survey was. [132109] Sajid Javid: The annual value of the basic, couples Sajid Javid: HM Treasury conducts an annual people and 30-hour elements of working tax credit for 2013-14 survey as part of a civil service wide survey co-ordinated would be as follows if they had risen by the retail prices by the Cabinet Office. index in April 2011, 2012 and 2013: The survey for 2012 was conducted between 1 October 2012 and 31 October 2012 and the estimated cost of the Maximum rate (£ per year) survey is £11,217. WTC Basic element 2,185 All Departments must publish their results externally WTC Couple element 2,155 by 31 January 2013, in line with the time scale determined WTC 30-hour element 905 by the Cabinet Office. The results will then be available to place in the Library of the House. A single person aged over 25 years, working 35 hours a week and earning £217 a week, with no other income Taxation: Football or savings would receive approximately £710 in working tax credit (WTC) in 2013-14, based on the value of Andrew Bingham: To ask the Chancellor of the WTC elements as they stand following autumn statement Exchequer how many Premier League footballers are 2012, 5 December 2012, Official Report, columns 871-82. registered in the UK for purposes of taxation. [132972] A single person aged over 25 years, working 35 hours Mr Gauke: All Premier League footballers are under a week and earning £217 a week, with no other income PAYE under the rules of the Football Association and or savings would receive approximately £1,185 in working Premier League. Every footballer who earns more than tax credit (WTC) in 2013-14 if each element of WTC £100,000 per annum must apply to register for self- had risen by the retail prices index in April (a) 2011, assessment and a tax return is issued to them. HMRC (b) 2012 and (c) 2013 and if the earnings taper had proactively reviews all of the football population and remained at 39%. ensures that all footballers earning more than £100,000 A couple with one child where one partner works for are issued with SA tax returns. 35 hours a week, earning £217 a week, where the couple have no other income or savings would receive Working Tax Credit approximately £5,955 in tax credits in 2013-14, based on the value of tax credit elements as they stand following Ann Coffey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer autumn statement 2012. (1) if he will estimate the level of the basic element of A couple with one child where one partner works for working tax credit in 2013-14 if it had risen by the 35 hours a week, earning £217 a week, where the couple retail prices index in April (a) 2011, (b) 2012 and (c) have no other income or savings would receive 2013; [133776] approximately £6,615 in tax credits in 2013-14 if each (2) if he will estimate the level of the couples element element of WTC had risen, by the retail prices index in of the working tax credit in 2013-14 if it had risen by April (a) 2011, (b) 2012 and (c) 2013 and if the the retail prices index in April (a) 2011, (b) 2012 and earnings taper had remained at 39%. (c) 2013; [133777] Fairness is a fundamental aspect of the Government’s (3) if he will estimate the level of the 30-hour plans to reduce the deficit and protect the economy by element of working tax credit in 2013-14 if it had risen ensuring that everyone pays their fair share. The change by the retail prices index in April (a) 2011, (b) 2012 from RPI to CPI uprating and the measures announced and (c) 2013; [133778] at autumn statement 2012 should therefore be considered (4) how much working tax credit will be received in alongside other decisions taken since the June 2010 2013-14 by a single person aged over 25 years, working Budget. 35 hours a week and earning £217 a week, with no The 2012 autumn statement builds on the Government’s other income or savings; [133779] commitment to ensure that it pays to work; to support (5) if he will estimate how much working tax credit pensioners and those most in need; and to deliver a would be received in 2013-14 by a single person aged progressive tax and welfare system that is affordable, over 25 years, working 35 hours a week and earning fair and encourages growth. The Government is providing 689W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 690W support for those on low and middle incomes by increasing next two years; and what estimate he has made of the the personal allowance by a further £235 in April 2013, cost of each such directive to the (A) public purse and meaning 2.2 million people will have been taken out of (B) private sector. [133711] tax by the Government’s increases in the personal allowance. David Mundell: The Scotland Office delivered the Furthermore, the Government is continuing to help Scotland Act 2012 in May of this year. In addition, each people with the rising cost-of-living through measures year, the Scotland Office takes forward a programme of such as cancelling the fuel duty increase that was planned Orders under the Scotland Act 1998. Generally, Scotland for 1 January 2013, and deferring the 2013-14 increase Act Orders make changes to the law in England and Wales, to 1 September 2013. Northern Ireland or the reserved law of the UK which Written Questions: Government Responses are outwith the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and many of these changes are consequential Mr Umunna: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to provisions made in Acts of the Scottish Parliament. when he plans to answer questions 127543, 127542 and The Scotland Office has not been responsible for 127541 from the hon. Member for Streatham, tabled transposing any EU directives in 2011 or 2012. We do on 5 November for answer on 7 November 2012 not currently have plans to transpose any EU directives [134441] in 2013 or the next two years. Greg Clark: These questions were answered today. In order to increase transparency, in the forthcoming Statement of New Regulation (SNR5) the Government will, for the first time, be publishing those new European NORTHERN IRELAND Union (EU) measures which are being implemented in EU Law UK law and have a direct effect on business. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Northern Ireland (1) which EU directives her which regulations his Department introduced as a Department transposed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which EU directives her Department expects to date; which regulations his Department expects to transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) 2013 and what estimate she has made of the cost of each such (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he has made directive to the (A) public purse and (B) private sector; of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) public [133709] purse and (B) private sector. [133712] (2) which regulations her Department introduced as David Mundell: The Scotland Office delivered the a result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to Scotland Act 2012 in May of this year. In addition, date; which regulations her Department expects to each year, the Scotland Office takes forward a programme implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) 2013 and of Orders under the Scotland Act 1998. Generally, (ii) the next two years; and what estimate she has made Scotland Act Orders make changes to the law in England of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) public and Wales, Northern Ireland or the reserved law of the purse and (B) private sector. [133710] UK which are outwith the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and many of these changes are Mike Penning: In the period 2011 to 2012 to date, my consequential to provisions made in Acts of the Scottish Department transposed the Identification and Traceability Parliament. of Explosives (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2012—this partly transposed EU directive 2012/4/EU. In 2011, the Scotland Office brought forward the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 On present plans my Department expects to transpose (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2011 in the next two years the Identification and Traceability (S.I. 2011/2298). This was brought forward as a result of of Explosives (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2013. the Scottish Parliament’s Criminal Justice and Licensing (This will fully transpose EU directive 2012/4/EU). (Scotland) Act 2010 and included provision to implement There is no cost to the public purse arising from the the Council of European Union Framework Decisions directives that have been transposed to date. The cost to 2008/675/JHA and 2008/978/JHA. There were no the public purse for the Identification and Traceability implementation costs associated with this Order. of Explosives (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2013 is In order to increase transparency, in the forthcoming expected to be minimal; there is no definitive estimate at Statement of New Regulation (SNR5) the Government present of cost to the private sector but initial indications will, for the first time, be publishing those new European are that it would be less than £100 per set of regulations. Union (EU) measures which are being implemented in In order to increase transparency, in the forthcoming UK law and have a direct effect on business. Statement of New Regulation (SNR5) the Government will, for the first time, be publishing those new European Union (EU) measures which are being implemented in WALES UK law and have a direct effect on business. Pneumonia Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if SCOTLAND he will ask the Welsh Minister for Health to publish the EU Law figures for deaths from hospital-acquired pneumonia at University Hospital Wales Cardiff in each of the last Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland five years. [134202] which EU directives his Department transposed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which EU directives his Mr David Jones: I will write to the right hon. Lady Department expects to transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) the with this information. 691W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 692W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Richard Benyon: Since the agreement of the General Approach on the reform of the Common Fisheries Animals: Exports Policy by Fisheries Ministers at June Council, I have been working to influence the European Parliament’s Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for consideration of the dossier. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will Discussions in the European Parliament are currently consider banning live animal exports from the UK. at the Committee stage, with a key vote on the basic [134110] regulation expected on 18 December 2012. In advance of that vote I will be encouraging Members of the Mr Heath [holding answer 17 December 2012]: While European Parliament to support radical reform of this the Government would prefer a trade in meat and germ failed policy. plasm to a trade in live animals, it cannot ban a legal I do not expect negotiations between the Council and trade. This has. been demonstrated in the courts (both Parliament to conclude until well into 2013. here and in Brussels) on a number of occasions during Dogs: Animal Breeding the 1990s. A key High Court judgment was that of Lord Justice Simon Brown in the 1995 joined cases of R v. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Dover Harbour Board (ex parte Gilder), R v. Associated Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what measures British Ports ex parte Plymouth City Council and the he is taking to prevent the battery farming of puppies European Court of Justice case C - 1/96 R v. MAFF ex in the UK. [133440] parte CIWF. Mr Heath: There is already legislation in place to deal Ash Dieback Disease with the welfare of dogs in dog breeding establishments. Local authorities have powers to respond to concerns Mr Tom Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for about the welfare of dogs in breeding establishments Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many ash through specific legislation that regulates commercial tree new planting sites are still to be surveyed in (a) dog breeders and through the Animal Welfare Act 2006. England, (b) Scotland and (c) Wales, from tracking In addition, the independent Dog Advisory Committee forward from tree nurseries and planting stock infected is working with interested parties to improve the standards of welfare in dog breeding establishments. DEFRA is with Chalara fraxinea. [133048] also working with the independent Pet Advertising Advisory Group to see how dogs can be advertised and sold in a Mr Heath: The Forestry Commission and the Food responsible way. and Environment Research Agency (Fera) are carrying out trace forward surveys. The number of sites identified Food: Prices is continuing to increase. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for The Forestry Commission currently has 472 sites in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent England, 241 sites in Scotland and 363 sites in Wales to estimate he has made of the effect of changes in the survey. A total of 690 sites in England and Wales are price of oil on the prices of food. [133643] still to be surveyed by Fera. Mr Heath: A DEFRA commissioned study found Mr Tom Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for that oil prices are one factor affecting the price of food Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his in the UK. Other important factors include global food control strategy for Chalara fraxinea ash dieback will commodity prices and exchange rates, with global prices include removing infected trees from new planting sites being the most important: and tree nurseries for the purposes of reducing threats http://randd.defra.gov.uk/Default.aspx?Menu=Menu to the wildlife of the wider countryside and reducing &Module=More&Location=None&Completed=0&Project the rate of spread of ash dieback. [133053] ID=17286 Oil prices have risen since 2007 and are expected to Mr Heath: Diseased plants and trees in nurseries will remain high, increasing the cost of transport and be traced and destroyed, as once young trees are infected manufacturing. Global agricultural commodity prices they succumb quickly. For recently-planted trees from have experienced a series of spikes since 2007, and in potentially infected source, we will continue with the the absence of further shocks, prices are expected to fall exercise to trace sites as an interim measure. We will in the coming years, but not to pre-spike levels. This is continue to use our statutory control powers to contain in large part because of the higher oil price, which recently-planted infected sites and to restrict the movement affects a number of agricultural inputs such as fertiliser. of infected material from the site. We will only require infected stock to be destroyed where it represents a significant threat of spreading the disease to uninfected COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT ash trees. Alarms

Common Fisheries Policy Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Mr Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for has made of the cost of providing free audible (a) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent carbon monoxide detectors and (b) dual carbon progress he has made on negotiations for reform of the monoxide and smoke alarms in accordance with the Common Fisheries Policy; and if he will make a same guidelines as the provision of free smoke alarms. statement. [132601] [134274] 693W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 694W

Mr Foster: We have made no such estimate of providing Brandon Lewis: The Energy Performance of Buildings free carbon monoxide alarms or dual carbon monoxide Recast Directive of 2010 is due to be implemented in and smoke alarms. January 2013 by the Building etc (Amendment) Regulations 2012 and the Energy Performance of Buildings Regulations Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012. The impact assessments for these measures will be Communities and Local Government what plans he published and will detail the costs, benefits and other has to discuss with representatives of the construction impacts. sector the effects of extending the provisions of the The Environmental Impact Assessment Regulations Smoke Detectors Act 1991 to include audible (a) 2011 consolidated and updated earlier instruments which carbon monoxide detectors and (b) dual carbon implemented the environmental impact assessment directive. monoxide and smoke detectors. [134275] The main changes included an inclusion for sites for the geological storage of carbon dioxide which were Mr Foster: The Smoke Detectors Act 1991 was repealed amendments required by the directive on the Geological with the introduction of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Directive 2009/31/EC). Safety) Order 2005 in October 2006. Article 53 and associated schedules (2 and 4) refer. I also refer the hon. In order to increase transparency, in the forthcoming Member to my answer of 11 December 2012, Official Statement of New Regulation the Government will, for Report, column 179W. the first time, be publishing those new European Union measures which are being implemented in UK law and Conditions of Employment have a direct effect on business.

Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what proportion Flood Control of officials in his Department have requested (a) part-time, (b) job-share or (c) other flexible working Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for arrangements in each of the last five years; and how Communities and Local Government what proportion many such requests were granted. [133656] of grants for lead local flood authorities in England will be provided through the business rate retention Brandon Lewis: My Department is committed to system in (a) 2013-14 and (b) 2014-15. [133927] enabling staff to work flexibly, as this provides a way for staff to combine their career with their personal life. Brandon Lewis: It is proposed that in both 2013-14 The Department encourages managers to be supportive and 2014-15 the amount of the Lead Local Flood of this where possible subject to business need. Authorities Grant to be transferred into the Business Requests for flexible working in my Department are Rate Retention Scheme will be £21 million. agreed by individual line managers, therefore a central record of the number of requests made is not held. However, my Department’s human resources system ICT records agreed changes to officials’ hours of work, and this has been used to calculate a proportion of total Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for granted requests for officials in the Department for Communities and Local Government how many (a) each of the last five year calendar years as follows: computers, (b) mobile telephones, (c) BlackBerrys and (d) other pieces of IT equipment were lost or Proportion of officials recorded as stolen from his Department in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) Calendar year changing hours (%) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [132197] 2008 3 2009 4 Brandon Lewis: The following items were lost or 2010 5 stolen during 2010-11 and 2011-12. 2011 4 2012 4 2010-11 2011-12 Item Lost Stolen Lost Stolen EU Law Computers 2 19 0 5 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Mobile 0300 telephones Communities and Local Government (1) which EU Blackberrys 8 3 3 143 directives his Department transposed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which EU directives his Department expects to transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two As previously explained in the answer of 22 March years; and what estimate he has made of the cost of 2012, Official Report, column 832W, the single theft of each such directive to the (A) public purse and (B) 141 BlackBerrys during 2011-12 was a matter we took private sector; [133693] with great seriousness. The BlackBerrys were new, had (2) which regulations his Department introduced as not been activated and did not provide potential for a result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to access to the Department’s systems or data. The police date; which regulations his Department expects to were called in and undertook a thorough investigation. implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) 2013 and Departmental security procedures relating to the storage (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he has made of IT equipment were also reviewed in detail and of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) public strengthened as a consequence of this incident. purse and (B) private sector. [133694] All departmental IT is fully security encrypted. 695W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 696W

Internet Brandon Lewis: Since November 2010, details of all DCLG exceptions to Government spending controls, Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for including recruitment, have been published on the Communities and Local Government how much has Department’s website. These data include all appointments been spent on (a) strategy and planning, (b) design made by our non-departmental public bodies and can and build, (c) hosting and infrastructure, (d) content be found at: provision and (e) testing and evaluation for his https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department- Department’s websites in each of the last two years; for-communities-and-local-government/series/dclg- and how much has been allocated for each such exceptions-to-spending-controls category of expenditure in 2012-13. [132127] Information relating to public appointments prior to November 2010 is not held centrally. Brandon Lewis: The departmental spend on its main With the exception of the Local Government website in 2009-10, 2010-11, 2011-12 and allocation for Ombudsman, all public appointments for our non- 2012-13 is shown in the following table: departmental public bodies are regulated by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments. The £ ombudsman, together with our executive agencies take 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 into account the Commissioner’s Code of Practice as (a) strategy and 0000best practice when making any public appointments. planning (b) design and 70,000 361,90 420,00 0 Right to Buy Scheme build (c) hosting and 372,000 350,350 359,000 285,011 Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for infrastructure Communities and Local Government with reference to (d) content 0000 provision the answer of 10 January 2012, Official Report, (e) testing and 3,000 6,221 0 0 column 61W, on Right-to-Buy Scheme, what estimate evaluation he has made of the cost to the public purse of funding the difference between the income raised from the Pay 50 per cent discounted sale of social housing and the cost of the land and construction of a one for one Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for replacement dwelling; and under what budget heading Communities and Local Government how much was such expenditure was accounted for in his paid in (a) year end and (b) in-year bonuses to Department’s accounts. [133838] officials in his Department in each of the last two years. [132861] Mr Prisk: We have not made any estimate of such costs. Social landlords generally provide new homes Brandon Lewis: The information is as follows, including by borrowing against future rental income from letting comparative figures for 2009-10: the property, a contribution from their own resources including land, and grant funding from the £ Government. Under our aim to provide a new Performance affordable home for each additional property sold under year Year end In year Total the Right to Buy, Government grant funding will be 2009-10 832,491 181,426 1,013,917 replaced by the receipt from the Right to Buy sale. 2010-11 580,050 113,830 £693,880 There is, therefore, no associated expenditure line in my 2011-12 247,750 296,500 544,250 Department’s accounts. With effect from 1 August 2011, my Department abolished Annual Performance and Special Performance Bonus schemes, replacing them with a new Exceptional WORK AND PENSIONS Performance scheme. This scheme applies to all staff below the senior civil service and under it individuals or Atos Healthcare teams can be recognised for exceptional performance or achievements through awards of up to £600. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for This Government have limited senior civil service Work and Pensions pursuant to the oral evidence of bonuses to the top 25% of performers. My Department the Permanent Secretary of his Department to the has exercised further restraint by limiting the value of Public Accounts Committee of 19 November 2012, HC bonus payments to 90% of the civil service-wide maxima. 744-i, Q164, what proportion of Atos Healthcare health care professionals have English as a first Public Appointments language. [131954]

Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hoban: Data on ‘English as a first language’ is Communities and Local Government how many public not held by Atos Healthcare on any of their employees. appointments (a) regulated by the Office of the All health care professionals who carry out assessments Commissioner for Public Appointments and (b) not in respect of benefit claims speak English. regulated by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Atos Healthcare operates strict recruitment criteria, Appointments have been made by his Department which includes the assessment of an applicant’s oral since 2007; and in how many such cases the services of communication skills during a formal interview conducted recruitment consultants were retained. [132794] by experienced medical and administrative managers. 697W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 698W

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the oral evidence of Work and Pensions with reference to section 15, the Permanent Secretary of his Department to the page 18 of the Government’s response to Professor Public Accounts Committee of 19 November 2012, HC Malcolm Harrington’s Third Independent Review of 744-i, Q161 and Q162, how many (a) doctors, (b) the Work Capability Assessment, when data on Atos nurses and (c) physiotherapists have been employed by performance and quality will be published. [131964] Atos Healthcare for the purposes of the work capability assessment in (i) the UK and (ii) each region Mr Hoban: The Department plans to publish the first in each month since May 2010. [131958] set of statistics in April 2013. Quality assurance and publication plans are in progress to ensure that any Mr Hoban: Data on the number of staff employed by figures meet the standards for official statistics. Atos Healthcare to work specifically on the work capability assessment (WCA) are not available. Atos Healthcare Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for headcount is recorded nationally against the DWP Medical Work and Pensions with reference to recommendations Services Contract which extends beyond delivery of the of Annex B of the Government’s Response to WCA. Professor Malcolm Harrington’s Third Independent Review of the Work Capability Assessment, published Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for in November 2012, how many unannounced visits have Work and Pensions pursuant to the oral evidence of been made to Atos assessment centres by (a) Professor the Permanent Secretary of his Department to the Harrington and (b) officials of his Department since Public Accounts Committee of 19 November 2012, May 2010 by region. [131966] HC 744-i, Q163, what the acceptance rate of those who apply for the role of healthcare professional with Atos Mr Hoban: Since May 2010, Professor Harrington Healthcare was in (a) the UK and (b) each region in and his officials have made three unannounced visits to (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012. [131960] Atos Assessment Centres. During 2010, Professor Harrington made unannounced visits in Balham and Mr Hoban: This information is not available in the Bristol. In 2012 he and officials made an unannounced format requested. visit in Marylebone. To provide a response to this question would involve Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for the undertaking of a detailed review of all applications Work and Pensions with reference to the oral evidence for the role of healthcare professional to track each of the Permanent Secretary of his Department to the healthcare professional through induction, training and Public Accounts Committee, 19 November 2012, approval. This is not currently reported on and would HC 744-i, Q50, how many invoices were submitted by exceed the disproportionate cost limit of £800 for Atos Healthcare in each month since May 2010; and parliamentary questions. how many such invoices were verified by his Department in each such month. [131967] Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with reference to section 14, page Mr Hoban: A table detailing the number of invoices 18 of the Government’s response to Professor Malcolm submitted each month by Atos Healthcare since May Harrington’s Third Independent Review of the Work 2010 will be placed in the Library. Capability Assessment, if he will publish the report by Atos Healthcare into the impact of reducing the From May 2010 to date 187 invoices have been submitted, National C grade target for employment and support all of which have been verified. allowance from five per cent to four per cent. [131962] For the purposes of answering this question the term ‘verification’ is assumed to mean ‘gaining assurance Mr Hoban: Atos Healthcare have written to the that the goods and/or services supplied by Atos Healthcare Department providing them with their report into the were delivered as specified on the invoice’. Further impact of reducing the National C Grade target for verification activity, such as ensuring the unit prices employment and support allowance from 5% to 4%. quoted on an invoice are correct, that the arithmetic of the invoice, i.e. volumes multiplied by unit prices, is This is currently being considered by the Department correct and an overall aggregate level check that the and is therefore “Commercial in Confidence”. volumes quoted on the invoice matches to DWP expectations are completed as a matter of routine on all Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Atos Healthcare invoices. Work and Pensions with reference to section 13, page 18 of the Government’s response to Professor Malcolm From May 2012 an additional verification process Harrington’s Third Independent Review of the Work was introduced to gain better assurance that the goods Capability Assessment, how long each online training and/or services received by the Department from Atos session lasts; and how often each healthcare Healthcare were valid. To date this process has been applied to 133 of the above invoices all of which have professional must undergo online training. [131963] passed verification with no errors identified. Mr Hoban: Every health care professional’s training need is different. All health care professionals can volunteer Employment and Support Allowance for the training or will be specifically directed to the training if a training need is identified. Each session Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for lasts as long as is required until the specific skill being Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the taught is mastered. cost of annual assessments for claimants of 699W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 700W employment and support allowance with (a) long-term The Department for Work and Pensions does not illnesses, (b) chronic illnesses and (c) congenital hold details of payments made to any particular type of disabilities. [132320] housing benefit tenants. This information is retained by individual local authorities. Mr Hoban: The information requested is not available Details of individual local authority’s allocation of as annual assessments are not necessarily undertaken. the Government funding towards discretionary housing payments for 2013-14 will be finalised and published in Housing Benefit January 2013. Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the and Pensions what assessment he has made of the number of households in (a) Edinburgh and (b) potential effect on low-income families of planned Edinburgh North and Leith constituency he expects to changes to housing benefit eligibility in respect of be required to move house as a result of the under-occupancy in the social rented sector. [133612] Government’s new rules on under-occupancy in social housing. [134175] Steve Webb: An impact assessment of the effects of the under-occupancy measure on working age claimants, Steve Webb: The new rules on under-occupancy in whether on full or partial housing benefit, in the social social housing do not require those claimants affected rented sector can be found at: by the restrictions to move. Claimants have a number of http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under- choices available to meet any shortfall of housing benefit occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf in meeting the cost of their rent, for example, some The equality impact assessment is available at: might take up work or increase their hours in work, http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/eia-social-sector-housing-under- others may take in a lodger and some may choose to occupation-wr2011.pdf move. We do not know how tenants or landlords will respond to the new rules. For these reasons, the information Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for requested is not available. Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made Inflammatory Bowel Disease of the proportion of (a) refuges for victims of domestic violence and (b) supported housing projects Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for young people which do not satisfy the definition of and Pensions what tailored support is provided to supported exempt accommodation and are therefore jobseekers diagnosed with Crohn’s disease. [132408] not covered by the exemption from the benefit cap announced in the Autumn Statement. [134448] Mr Hoban: DWP Jobcentre Plus training provides our advisers with the skills required to support a range Steve Webb: This information is not available. of claimants. Recognising that individuals may have conditions or circumstances that require different levels Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for of support, our advisers will discuss with the claimant Work and Pensions whether he will exclude payments how significantly they are affected by their disability or for supported housing from the benefit cap, including health condition, including health conditions such as for refuges and young people’s accommodation, which Crohn’s disease. This is specifically in relation to are not currently classified as exempt accommodation. employment. Our approach to helping jobseekers back [134449] to work is based on providing personalised support. If claimants require additional support, they may be Steve Webb: The Chancellor announced in his autumn referred to, or can ask to be referred to a disability statement that housing payments for those in supported employment adviser. Disability employment advisers exempt accommodation will be disregarded for the support those facing more complex work situations purpose of the benefit cap. because of their disability, or health condition. They The definition to be used for exempt accommodation know about the programmes and services, including is that currently used in the assessment for housing specialist disability programmes and services available benefit and the definition will continue broadly unchanged for disabled people locally. They can also refer claimants within universal credit. for an occupational health assessment, or seek the help of work psychologists, advocate on behalf of the claimant Housing Benefit: Edinburgh with prospective employers and aim to identify work solutions that will overcome or minimise any difficulties, related to an individual’s disability in the workplace. Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for They can also provide information about Access to Work and Pensions how much he expects to be paid in Work. This is a specialist disability service delivered by discretionary payments of housing benefit to social DWP Jobcentre Plus which can fund the additional housing tenants in Edinburgh North and Leith work-related costs faced by a disabled person, or their constituency; and for what period such payments will employer. be made. [133933] Jobcentre Plus Steve Webb: In 2012-13, the Department for Work and Pensions has made available £573,486 towards John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work discretionary housing payments awarded by the City of and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 17 October Edinburgh council. 2012, Official Report, columns 344-6W, on Jobcentre 701W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 702W

Plus, what each of the figures in the tables is as a Caseload Complaints Percentage proportion of the number of jobseeker’s allowance claimants in each region in each year. [134455] Central England 316,625 1,287 0.4 Group London and the 270,113 2,000 0.7 Mr Hoban: The following table shows the number of Home Counties claimants in each region (group from 2011-12 to present), Group the number of complaints as reported in PQ 123145 North East England 304,242 763 0.3 and the proportion of complaints against the number Group North West England 206,793 670 0.3 of jobseeker’s allowance claimants in each region or Group group from 2008-09 to September 2012. Scotland Group 261,278 1,105 0.4 Southern England 148,076 873 0.6 Caseload Complaints Percentage Group Wales Group 83,877 250 0.3 2008-09 National 1,421,941 4,430 0.3 2012-13 East Midlands 103,236 145 0.1 Region National 1,463,152 6,416 0.4 East of England 111,060 234 0.2 Central England 294,639 649 0.2 Region Group London Region 190,385 801 0.4 London and the 244,508 1,106 0.5 North East Region 83,952 163 0.2 Home Counties Group North West Region 185,621 369 0.2 North East England 284,251 494 0.2 Scotland Region 124,951 438 0.4 Group South East Region 139,086 479 0.3 North West England 187,680 2,210 1.2 South West Region 91,575 392 0.4 Group Wales Region 79,385 311 0.4 Scotland Group 248,203 563 0.2 West Midlands 166,993 437 0.3 Southern England 126,216 753 0.6 Region Group Yorkshire and The 145,697 348 0.2 Wales Group 77,655 137 0.2 Humber Region Source: The caseload is provided by MISP (Management Information System Project and the complaints is provided by the Jobcentre Plus Customer Complaints 2009-10 Level 1 and 2 2008-09 to date. National 1,582,580 5,149 0.3 East Midlands 110,201 161 0.1 Official Hospitality Region East of England 122,322 340 0.3 Region Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for London Region 235,173 839 0.4 Work and Pensions how much his Department has North East Region 89,602 223 0.2 spent for hospitality purposes on (a) Champagne, (b) North West Region 207,807 365 0.2 wines, (c) spirits, (d) soft drinks, (e) flowers, (f) Scotland Region 146,444 429 0.3 laundry, (g) porterage, (h) china, (i) cutlery and (j) South East Region 156,269 527 0.3 venue hire since May 2010. [132880] South West Region 95,437 365 0.4 Wales Region 74,180 272 0.4 Mr Hoban: The Department does not hold specific West Midlands 181,508 578 0.3 expenditure information on (a) Champagne, (b) wines, Region (c) spirits, (d) soft drinks, (e) flowers, (f) laundry, (g) Yorkshire and The 163,637 373 0.2 porterage, (h) china and (i) cutlery. Humber Region While expenditure on (j) venue hire, is collected, the information does not specifically identify hospitality-related 2010-11 expenditure. National 1,480,642 7,616 0.5 East Midlands 100,481 226 0.2 Region Personal Independence Payment East of England 112,209 360 0.3 Region Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Work London Region 223,782 1,257 0.6 and Pensions whether the delay of transferring existing North East Region 87,100 332 0.4 lifetime and indefinite claimants of disability living North West Region 188,712 514 0.3 allowance to personal independence payments from Scotland Region 148,109 965 0.7 October 2013 to October 2015 will have an effect on South East Region 140,101 521 0.4 jobs at his Department’s benefits centre in Warbreck. South West Region 86,249 391 0.5 [134400] Wales Region 75,756 225 0.3 West Midlands 163,684 666 0.4 Region Esther McVey: We recognise personal independence Yorkshire and The 154,459 389 0.3 payment is a major change and are determined to get Humber Region the delivery right. Before we start to reassess the bulk of disability living 2011-12 allowance claimants, we will learn from our new claims National 1,591,004 7,344 0.5 experience, make sure our systems are working as we 703W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 704W intend, and consider the findings from the first independent Mr Hoban: The termination rate is set by the review of personal independence payment, which is due Department’s telecommunications provider, British by the end of 2014. Telecom, and is not a matter for DWP.The Department No decisions have been made at this time regarding for Work and Pensions does not receive any revenue the effect on jobs at the Blackpool benefits centre with from calls to its 08 services. regard to the delay of transferring existing lifetime and Unemployment indefinite claimants of disability living allowance to personal independence payment from October 2013 to October 2015. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the implications for his Police: Pensions policies are of the observation of the Office for Budget Responsibility report on Economic and Fiscal outlook Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for Work that the unemployment rate will rise to 8.2 per cent in and Pensions what assessment he has made of the 2013. [134289] likely effect of changes to the consumer prices index on the police pension scheme. [133647] Mr Hoban: We are aware of the challenges facing jobseekers in the labour market and have put in place a Damian Green: I have been asked to reply on behalf substantial menu of support to help them move into of the Home Department. work. This includes support offered through Jobcentre No such assessment has been made. Plus, who can offer claimants a comprehensive menu of support from Day 1, the Work programme which offers Social Security Benefits: Scotland people tailored support to help them find and stay in employment and the Youth Contract which will provide Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for nearly half a million new opportunities to young Work and Pensions how many claimants attending the unemployed people over the next three years. Jobcentre in (a) Hamilton, (b) Rutherglen, (c) While there may be challenges ahead, recent labour Coatbridge, (d) Falkirk, (e) Barrhead, (f) Shettleston, market data has been encouraging with employment up (g) Parkhead, (h) Langside, (i) Auldhouse, (j) by half a million more people in work and unemployment Govan, (k) Drumchapel, (l) Laurieston, (m) down by 128,000 over the last year. Despite this, we Maryhill, (n) Easterhouse, (o) Hillington, (p) keep our labour market interventions under review, Castlemilk, (q) Craigton, (r) Partick, (s) Springburn, taking account of the economic conditions. (t) Newlands, (u) Bridgeton, (v) Provan, (w) Anniesland, (x) Pollok and (y) Airdrie have had Universal Credit benefit sanctions imposed on them in (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012 to date. [134383] John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with reference to the Work and Pensions Mr Hoban: The information requested is not collated Select Committee’s Third Report of Session 2010-12, centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate HC576, on universal credit, what steps he will take to costs. provide sufficient resources to meet any increase in Surveys demand from claimants needing advice during the implementation of universal credit. [134375] Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will place in the Library a Mr Hoban: It is anticipated that roles required to copy of the results of his Department’s most recent support the introduction of universal credit and to staff survey; which organisation carried out the survey; administer the credit will be resourced from within the and what the cost of the survey was. [132112] Department for Work and Pensions and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs current headcount and that the Mr Hoban: DWP’s People Survey results are published challenges around resources are considered manageable. externally according to a timetable set by Cabinet Office. Discussions are still ongoing with local authorities regarding This applies to all 96 organisations participating in the their future role in the delivery of universal credit. Civil Service People survey 2012. Results for all departments Before universal credit starts to be introduced across will be published on data.gov.uk on 1 February 2013. the country from October 2013 we will test it through a DWP also publishes its results on its external site on the phased roll out approach (Pathfinder) starting in April same date. 2013. At this stage for Pathfinder, we do not anticipate The Civil Service People survey, of which DWP’s significant increases in processing or advisory roles. The survey is part, is supported by Cabinet Office and the work force requirement for the initial phase of universal supplier organisation, ORC International. The cost of credit is currently being reviewed as part of a wider DWP’s survey is £73,000 which is around 73 pence per re-planning exercise. The work force requirement when person. known will be handled primarily through the transfer of staff from existing operational areas. Telephone Services Work Capability Assessment John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to his answer of 21 November Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012, Official Report, column 153W, on telephone Work and Pensions pursuant to the oral evidence of services, if the termination rate is retained by the the Permanent Secretary of his Department to the Department’s telephone provider in full. [134374] Public Accounts Committee of 19 November 2012, 705W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 706W

HC 744-i, Q165, (1) how many claimants undergoing The majority of people making a claim to employment the work capability assessment in each region waited and support allowance (ESA) will be asked to complete longer than the Atos clearance target in (a) each the self-assessment questionnaire ESA50 to explain the month since May 2010, (b) 2010, (c) 2011 and (d) effects of their condition, or conditions, in relation to 2012 to date; [131956] the functional activities that make up the work capability (2) what proportion of claimants undergoing the assessment (WCA). work capability assessment waited longer than the Atos In addition claimants are encouraged to submit any clearance target in (a) the UK and (b) each region in further evidence which will enable a DM to make an (i) each month since May 2010, (ii) 2010, (iii) 2011 and entitlement decision. This can be either medical evidence, (iv) 2012 to date. [131957] for example from a claimant’s GP or consultant, or non-medical such as a statement from a social worker or family member. Mr Hoban: The information requested could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many work capability assessments Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for received zero points on initial assessment and were Work and Pensions with reference to the oral evidence passed on appeal in the latest period for which figures of the Chief Medical Adviser and Director for Health are available; and how many people received between and Wellbeing of his Department to the Public zero and six points in a work capability assessment and Accounts Committee, 19 November 2012, HC 744-i, were passed on appeal in that period. [133104] Q92, what evidence other than medical evidence can be Mr Hoban: The following table shows points scored taken into account by his Department. [131968] at the work capability assessment (WCA) and appeal outcomes for employment and support allowance (ESA) Mr Hoban: The Department’s decision makers (DMs) claimants who were found fit for work at the initial have to consider any evidence that will contribute to an WCA and subsequently appealed the decision. The overall picture of the claimant’s functional capability in period covered is for ESA claims received between order to inform a decision on benefit entitlement. October 2008 and August 2011.

Points scored at initial WCA for fit for work outcomes where an appeal has been heard by the Tribunal Service (ESA claims starting between October 2008 and August 2011) Outcomes of appeals heard on fit for work decisions in the initial functional assessment Fit for work outcomes at Points scored at initial WCA initial WCA Initial decision overturned Initial decision upheld Any outcome

0 points 327,500 65,700 132,400 198,100 Between 1 and 6 points 57,500 22,800 26,400 49,100 Total 385,000 88,500 158,800 247,200 Note: The data presented above come from benefit claims data held by the Department for Work and Pensions, functional assessment data from Atos Healthcare and appeals data from the Tribunals Service. All figures have been rounded to the nearest 100. Appeals data are only available for claims starting up to August 2011.

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hoban: The following table shows the proportion Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 12 of repeat assessments that were carried out for those in December 2012, Official Report, column 388W, on the the support group and work-related activity group at work capability assessment, what proportion of those the initial work capability assessment (WCA) for repeat work capability reassessments that took place within assessments taking place three months, six months, nine (a) three months, (b) six months, (c) nine months, months, 12 months, 15 months, 18 months and over (d) 12 months, (e) 15 months, (f) 18 months and (g) 18 months after the initial assessment WCA. The initial over 18 months of the initial assessment were for those WCA outcome refers to the outcome adjusted to account in the (i) work-related activity group and (ii) support for appeals heard. group. [134460]

Repeat assessments by initial WCA outcome (adjust for appeals heard) and duration between initial and first repeat WCA Percentage Outcome at initial WCA Duration between initial and first repeat assessment Support group WRAG

Up to 3 months 41 59 Up to 6 months 30 70 Up to 9 months 23 77 Up to 12 months 21 79 Up to 15 months 23 77 Up to 18 months 18 82 Over 18 months 24 76 Note: Some claims are not included because the initial assessment outcome could not be determined. Source: The data presented above come from benefit claims data held by the Department for Work and Pensions. 707W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 708W

Work Programme Reaper Remotely Piloted Aircraft System are no different to those from other airborne platforms. Attacks are Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for carried out under the command of a pilot bounded by Work and Pensions (1) what assessment he has made of Rules of Engagement which are no different to those the reasons why the Work programme key performance used for manned combat aircraft. Targets are always measure did not achieve the minimum performance positively identified as legitimate military objectives standard in the first 14 months of the programme; and and strikes are prosecuted in accordance with the Law if he will make a statement; [134401] of Armed Conflict and UK Rules of Engagement. (2) whether he expects the Work programme to achieve the minimum performance standard in its first Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for two years. [134450] Defence how many (a) names of members of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) killed Mr Hoban: Job outcome performance has built up on operations were read out during ceremonies at more slowly than our initial assumptions suggested, ISAF-headquarters to honour the dead, (b) Afghan partly because Work programme providers are taking nationals were killed on operations and (c) members longer than expected to track and claim outcomes. Job of the Afghan National Army were killed on entry data released by the Employment Related Services operations in each week of 2012 to date. [134287] Association (ERSA) shows the number of job entries per month has been rising and we would expect this to Mr Robathan: The International Security Assistance lead to increased job outcomes in the future. In addition Force (ISAF) Headquarters holds a service every Sunday we are working with all providers to improve performance morning, during which the names of ISAF personnel and have issued formal contractual letters to those who have been killed in the intervening period are read providers delivering contracts where performance is out. Details of fatalities are released publicly as they are poorest. Our aspiration for the total levels of job outcomes confirmed, not on a weekly basis. These press releases to be achieved by providers remains the same. are available at the ISAF website at: http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/casualty-report/index.php Work Programme: Greater Manchester Between 1 January 2012 and 18 December 2012, 274 Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Work ISAF soldiers have died on operations. and Pensions how many people successfully completed While we investigate carefully all alleged incidents the Work programme in the Greater Manchester area involving UK forces, the Government does not record in the last year. [132411] total figures for insurgent or civilian casualties in Afghanistan because of the immense difficulty and Mr Hoban: The Work programme is a two-year risks that would be involved in collecting robust data. programme for each participant so this information is The UN Assistance Mission to Afghanistan released its not available at this stage. own most recent report on civilian casualties in July 2012, which recorded a total of 1,145 civilian deaths Work Programme: Kilmarnock from 1 January to 31 June 2012, 80% of which were attributed to anti-government forces, and 10% of which Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for could not be attributed. Work and Pensions (1) how many people in Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency have The Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan completed the Work programme since its inception; does not release figures for Afghan National Security Force fatalities. [131933] (2) how many people in Kilmarnock and Loudoun Air Force: Military Bases constituency who have undertaken the Work programme were in work six months after completing Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State the programme. [131938] for Defence how much has been spent on buildings for the use of civilian contractors at (a) RAF Leuchars, Mr Hoban: The Work programme is a two-year (b) RAF Lossiemouth and (c) RAF Marham in each programme for each participant so this information is of the last five years. [134261] not available at this stage. Mr Robathan: Details of expenditure on buildings for the use of civilian contractors across all three stations DEFENCE over each of the last five years is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Afghanistan Armed Forces: Scotland Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment his Department has made of Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State the effect of unmanned aerial vehicle strikes on the for Defence if he will place a copy of the capacity mental health and wellbeing of civilians in review of the Army estate in Scotland in the Library. Afghanistan. [133769] [134258]

Mr Robathan: We have no reason to believe that Mr Robathan: Until a basing announcement is made aerial strikes from whatever platform have had an adverse it would be premature for me to place a copy of the effect in general on the mental health and wellbeing of capacity review of the Army estate in Scotland in the civilians in Afghanistan. Weapons released by the UK’s Library of the House. 709W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 710W

Defence Equipment Mr Robathan: The scientific consensus is that DU intakes are only likely to be a concern for those in or on Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for vehicles at the time they are struck by DU or for those Defence pursuant to the statement of 14 May 2012, who enter immediately afterwards. Official Report, columns 261-4, on defence budget and Lost Property transformation, what maritime patrol capabilities are part of the Core Equipment Programme. [132893] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Dunne: Since the previous Government withdrew (1) which items were listed as (a) lost, (b) lost in the Maritime Patrol Aircraft a range of complementary transit and (c) missing at (i) COD Donnington and (ii) assets have been used to conduct maritime patrol including COD Bicester from 2010 to date; and if he will make a T23 Frigates, Merlin helicopters, attack submarines, statement; [132901] Hercules and Sentry aircraft. All of these assets are in (2) what the total value was of items (a) lost, (b) the core programme. A decision on any future requirement lost in transit and (c) missing from Defence will not be made until the Strategic Defence and Security Equipment and Support in each year since 2007; and if Review in 2015. he will make a statement; [132902] The maritime patrol boat capabilities in the core (3) what the total value was of items (a) lost, (b) equipment programme consist of the following current lost in transit and (c) missing from (i) COD in-service capabilities: Donnington, (ii) COD Bicester, (iii) HMNB Clyde, (iv) Hunt Class Mine Countermeasures Vessels HMNB Portsmouth, (v) ACIO Colchester and (vi) Sandown Class Mine Countermeasures Vessels HMNB Devonport; and if he will make a statement. [132903] River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels Clyde Class Offshore Patrol Vessels (Helicopter) Mr Dunne: This information is not held centrally and P2000 Patrol Boats will take time to collate. I will write to the hon. Member Gibraltar Patrol Boat Squadron as soon as it is available. Ocean Survey Vessel Military Alliances Coastal Survey Vessels Depleted Uranium Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what military aviation collaboration projects Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department has taken part in with (a) EU Defence with reference to paragraph III. 4 of the report countries, (b) non-EU countries, excluding the US and of the UN Secretary-General on Effects of the use of (c) the US in each of the last five years; and what the armaments and ammunities containing depleted cost was of each such project. [132355] uranium, dated 17 September 2010, what assessment he has made of the recommendation by the UN Mr Dunne: Ministry of Defence expenditure on military Environment Programme that action be taken to clean aviation collaboration projects for each of the last five up and decontaminate the polluted sites and that there financial years is shown in the following table. The should be a policy of awareness-raising among local expenditure includes airframes, engines and other systems populations; and if he will take steps to implement intrinsic to the aircraft. It does not include airborne these recommendations. [133486] weapons fitted to aircraft.

£ million Collaborative partner: Project EU/non-EU/USA F/Y 2007-08 F/Y 2008-09 F/Y 2009-10 F/Y 2010-11 F/Y 2011-12

Tornado EU 362.0 383.0 383.0 368.0 429.0 Typhoon EU 969.0 1,225.0 1,521.0 1,790.0 1,730.0 Gazelle1 EU 2— 2— 2— 2— 1.9 Puma1 EU 2— 2— 2— 2— 17.4 A400M EU 168.0 228.0 356.0 144.0 113.0 Hercules C-I30J In-service Non-EU 15.6 15.6 12.3 17.8 19.0 software upgrade Harrier USA 198.0 182.0 203.0 108.0 0.0 Lightning II USA 181.0 100.0 145.0 242.0 259.0 Airseeker USA 0 0 0 15.3 118.0 1 Information for financial years 2007-08, 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11 is not available. 2 Not available.

The Hercules C-130J in-service software upgrade Military Bases project includes a collaboration of EU, non-EU countries and the USA. This explains the cost in the Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State ’non-EU’ category above. for Defence whether (a) he, (b) Ministers or (c) officials of his Department have (i) received written communication from or (ii) met representatives of (A) 711W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 712W

Thales Training and Simulation Ltd, (B) Infrastructure Mr Dunne: The Royal Navy Fleet Unmanned Investment Ltd or (C) Robertson Group in relation to Underwater Vehicle (UUV) Unit and the Fleet Diving his Department’s Basing Review. [134191] Squadron operate a number of UUVs for trials, evaluation and the development of training, tactics and doctrine. Mr Robathan: It will take a little time to co-ordinate As part of a wider programme, the Mine Countermeasures, details of any possible written communications from Hydrographic and Patrol Capability project team is Thales Training and Simulation Ltd, Infrastructure investigating exploitation of UUVs to deliver elements Investment Ltd or Robertson Group in relation to the of these capabilities in the future. The programme is in Basing Review. I will write to the right hon. and learned its concept phase so the Department is not in a position Member when the information is available. to set out detailed plans at this stage.

NATO CABINET OFFICE Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Emergency Planning College Defence how much his Department paid to (a) NATO, (b) the US Administration, (c) the US Treasury, (d) Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the Receiver General of Canada, (e) MAMSA, (f) Office what plans he has to visit the Emergency NATO Consultation Command and Control Agency Planning college at Easingwold; and if he will make a and (g) SHAPE in each of the last five years; and what statement. [134524] the purpose was of each payment. [128004] Mr Maude: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on 5 December 2012, Official Report, column Dr Murrison: The total value of MOD payments 760W. made through Defence Business Services and the British Defence Staff (US Cash Office) to the organisations Israel listed has been as follows in each of the last five years: Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet £ million Office if he will take steps to ensure that products from Organisation 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 and companies based in Israeli settlements are excluded from public procurement. [134162] NATO 28.4 55.3 79.9 65.6 61.9 US Administration 280.4 549.2 364.2 500.5 515.2 Miss Chloe Smith: I refer the hon. Member to the US Treasury 69.0 106.5 188.6 163.9 100.7 answer I gave to the right hon. Member for Exeter Receiver General of 29.6 33.6 48.9 69.0 43.3 (Mr Bradshaw) on 23 May 2012, Official Report, column Canada 766W. NATO Maintenance 25.0 63.1 80.9 88.3 65.3 and Supply Agency Negligence: Ministry of Defence NATO Consultation 19.0 42.1 38.8 57.8 17.1 Command and Joan Walley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Control Agency Office what assessment he has made of the potential Supreme Headquarters 37.0 70.8 69.1 51.1 59.1 effects of his proposals for closed material procedure in Europe negligence claims brought by the families of service All figures are exclusive of value added tax and are at personnel against the Ministry of Defence. [133879] current prices. Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Government is proposing to The payments to NATO, its agencies and the Supreme use closed material procedures (CMPs) for a very small Headquarters Europe mainly represent the UK’s number of cases involving relevant national security contribution to NATO common-funded military budgets, material, which the courts recognise cannot be disclosed the amount of each payment being made in accordance in open court. Most cases involving service personnel with the cost-sharing formula agreed for each financial are very different from those for which CMPs would be year. There are two distinct budgetary areas for common required. The MOD foresees no need to use CMPs in funding: such cases. the military budget which covers expenditure of the NATO Registration of Births, Deaths, Marriages and Civil standing military headquarters and agencies; and Partnerships the NATO Security Investment Programme which covers expenditure for alliance capital investment costs (mainly infrastructure Tim Loughton: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet costs). Office how many (a) marriages, (b) divorces, (c) civil Expenditure in both these budgetary areas includes partnerships, (d) dissolutions of civil partnerships and costs arising from alliance operations and missions. (e) annulments of civil partnerships there were in each Payments to the United States and Canada are for year since December 2005. [134204] equipment, equipment support, and other commodities and services for UK armed forces. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Unmanned Underwater Vehicles Letter from Glen Watson, dated December 2012: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for have been asked to reply to your recent question on how many (a) Defence what plans he has for unmanned underwater marriages, (b) divorces, (c) civil partnerships, (d) dissolutions of vehicle programmes in the Royal Navy; and if he will civil partnerships and (e) annulments of civil partnerships there make a statement. [133645] were in each year since December 2005. (134204) 713W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 714W

The table below shows the numbers of marriages, divorces, where safe and appropriate, should be emphasised in civil partnerships and civil partnership dissolutions in England the dispute resolution process. Work will continue next and Wales for 2005-2011 where available. Divorce figures for 2011 year to develop a range of support to help separated are due to be published on 20 December 2012, while marriage parents resolve their disputes out of court. The importance figures for 2011 are due to be published March-April 2013. of considering the benefits to children of maintaining ONS divorce and civil partnership dissolution statistics include both dissolutions and annulments. relationships with wider family members will be stressed throughout this process, including through online support, Numbers of marriages, divorces, civil partnerships and civil partnership parenting programmes for separated parents, and as dissolutions, England and Wales, 2005 to 2011 part of the new ’parenting agreement’ which is being Civil Civil partnership developed. Marriages Divorces partnerships dissolutions Freedom of Information 2005 247,805 141,322 1,85712— 2006 239,454 132,140 14,943 2— Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 235,367 128,131 7,929 40 Education what assessment his Department has made 2008 235,794 121,708 6,558 166 of the relative cost to his Department of answering 2009 232,443 113,949 5,687 329 Written Parliamentary questions from hon. Members 2010 241,1003 119,589 5,804 485 and requests made under the Freedom of Information 4 4 3 2011 — — 6,152 624 Act 2000. [134273] 1 The Civil Partnership Act 2004 came into force on 5 December 2005 in the UK, the first day couples could give notice of their intention to form a civil partnership. The first day that couples could normally form a partnership was Elizabeth Truss: None. 21 December 2005 in England and Wales (18 civil partnerships were formed under special arrangements before these dates. These arc included in the figures) Further Education: Admissions 2 Denotes nil. 3 Data are provisional. 4 Denotes not available. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Education what plans he has to allow further education Office for National Statistics colleges to enrol 14 to 16 year olds; and if he will make The Vital Statistics: Population and Health Reference a statement. [133821] Tables on the ONS website provide the number of marriages, divorces, civil partnership and civil partnership Matthew Hancock [holding answer 17 December 2012]: dissolutions for the United Kingdom and its constituent We are reforming education so it’s rigorous and stretching countries. See Annual Time Series Data table at: and I want every child that wants to study high quality www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/vital-statistics--population- vocational courses alongside the critical academic core and-health-reference-tables/winter-2012-update/rtd-annual- to be able to so do. One way we will be doing this is table.xls allowing outstanding, good and improving colleges to enrol full-time pupils from the age of 14. This will take effect from next September. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Colleges will need to provide a dedicated space for Official Hospitality students to go to for advice, tuition and some teaching although they will be able to use all college facilities. A Wayne David: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister senior member of the teaching staff will be responsible how much his Department has spent on hospitality in for the centre and ensuring the students receive the (a) 2012-13 to date and (b) 2011-12. [134367] education and support they need. Like all new education provision the colleges will be The Deputy Prime Minister: Costs on hospitality subject to Ofsted inspection within two years of opening. incurred by my office between April 2012 and November Whether a child is academic or vocational minded, 2012 and the last financial year are £13,800 and £10,200 they deserve the chance of excellent education that respectively. meets their needs. Any expenditure on hospitality is made in accordance Further details are available on the DFE website: with published departmental guidance on financial procedures and propriety, based on the principles set http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/ youngpeople/gandlearning/a00218341/wolf-review- out in “Managing Public Money” and the Treasury recommendation-19 handbook on “Regularity and Propriety”. Young People

EDUCATION Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Family Justice Review Education what proportion of students aged 16 to 18 in (a) sixth form colleges and (b) further education Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for colleges entered (i) higher education institutions and Education what progress he has made in implementing (ii) employment in each of the last five years. [133822] the decision of the Family Justice Review on ensuring that children maintain relationships with grandparents Matthew Hancock [holding answer 17 December 2012]: and other family members if their parents separate. The proportion of students in 2008/09 who entered an [133869] A Level or equivalent qualification in (a) sixth form colleges and (b) further education colleges who went Mr Timpson: We agree with the Family Justice Review’s on to a higher education institution in 2009/10 and recommendation that the importance of children’s participated for at least the first two terms is shown in relationships with grandparents and other family members, the following table: 715W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 716W

Total number of students (KS5 Students who went to a higher Students who went to a higher Type Cohort)1 education institution (Number)2 education institution (Percentage)2

Sixth form college 57,700 32,660 57 Further education college 102,110 39,780 39 All types—Schools and colleges 313,340 162,780 52 1 Students who entered a level 3 qualification. 2 Students who have been in an education destination for the first two terms.

Information is only available for 2008/09 students and the Attorney-General’s Office are holding office going to a sustained education destination in 2009/10. wide Christmas parties for their staff. No public funds These destination measures were published for the first are being used to pay for any entertainment and hospitality time in a statistical first release (experimental statistics) costs for these events. Any such costs are being met by on 17 July 2012. members of staff and Ministers. http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STA/t001076/ index.shtml Crime: Damage Data for the next available year, 2010/11 destinations, will be published in summer 2013. Data on employment destinations are currently being explored by officials in Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how the Department to consider whether they can be included many prosecutions the Crown Prosecution Service has in the next publication. carried out for criminal damage in each of the last five years; and what the conviction rate was in each such year. [134398] ATTORNEY-GENERAL Christmas The Solicitor-General: The records held by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) provide an analysis of the Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General outcome of proceedings, divided into 12 principal offence whether the Law Officers’ Departments are holding a categories which indicate the most serious offence with Christmas party in 2012; and what the cost is. [134368] which the defendant was charged at the time of finalisation. The following table shows the number of prosecutions The Solicitor-General: Only the Treasury Solicitor’s and convictions for defendants whose principal offence Department, HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate was “criminal damage”.

Convictions Unsuccessful Number Percentage Number Percentage Total number

2007-08 45,237 86.1 7,279 13.9 52,516 2008-09 43,437 88.0 5,912 12.0 49,349 2009-10 40,832 87.4 5,912 12.6 46,744 2010-11 38,666 86.3 6,152 13.7 44,818 2011-12 35,885 85.9 5,912 14.1 41,797

Crimes of Violence in which a prosecution commenced and reached a first hearing in magistrates courts, rather than the number of Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how defendants prosecuted. The following table, therefore, many prosecutions the Crown Prosecution Service has shows in each of the last five years the number of carried out for (a) actual bodily harm and (b) offences charged under section 47 (Assault occasioning grievous bodily harm in each of the last five years; and Actual Bodily Harm), section 20 (Unlawful Wounding) what the conviction rates were for each in each such and section 18 (Grievous Bodily Harm) of the Offences year. [134372] against the Person Act 1861. The Solicitor-General: The records held by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) identify the number of offences

Offences Against the Person Act 1861, Offences Against the Person Act 1861, Offences Against the Person Act 1861, section 47 section 20 section 18

2007-08 34,882 5,754 7,825 2008-09 31,566 5,552 7,759 2009-10 33,129 5,834 7,930 2010-11 34,737 6,195 8,424 2011-12 26,713 5,466 7,748

There is no indication of the final prosecution outcome, the time of finalisation. It is also often the case that an or if the charged offence was the substantive charge at individual defendant is charged with more than one 717W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 718W offence against the same victim. To obtain the volume financial years. Offences for possession with intent to and rate of convictions it would be necessary to review supply have been separated out for clarity. individual case files which would incur a disproportionate Class A cost. Possession with Supply intent to supply Possession Dangerous Driving 2007-08 10,428 8,104 20,103 David Morris: To ask the Attorney-General how 2008-09 10,755 8,829 21,749 many drivers were prosecuted for causing death by 2009-10 8,826 8,251 19,367 careless or inconsiderate driving where their speed was 2010-11 8,181 7,880 17,680 recorded at less than 35 mph in the last two years for 2011-12 7,253 6,959 15,585 which figures are available. [133908] Class B Possession with The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service Supply intent to supply Possession (CPS) does not hold any information centrally regarding 2007-08 1,225 3,828 28,300 the alleged driving speeds for any given offence, and 2008-09 1,385 4,735 35,860 therefore maintains no central record of the number of 2009-10 1,501 5,287 42,863 drivers that were prosecuted for causing death by careless 2010-11 1,844 6,716 47,901 or inconsiderate driving where their speed was recorded 2011-12 2,212 7,286 47,979 at less than 35 mph. Such data could not be reasonably obtained locally or nationally other than by reviewing Class C individual case files which would incur a disproportionate Possession with cost. Supply intent to supply Possession 2007-08 485 1,087 6,278 Domestic Violence: Prosecutions 2008-09 545 1,214 6,698 2009-10 385 1,043 3,945 Philip Davies: To ask the Attorney-General what 2010-11 303 1,016 4,953 guidance he gives to the Crown Prosecution Service on 2011-12 354 1,149 5,081 the consideration to be given to the terms of a reconciliation agreed via a Muslim Arbitration There is no indication of the final prosecution outcome, Tribunal when deciding whether or not to begin a or if the charged offence was the substantive charge at prosecution for an offence that involves domestic the time of finalisation. It is also often the case that an violence. [134349] individual defendant is charged with more than one offence. The Solicitor-General: The Law Officers have not In addition to the offence of supplying a controlled given any guidance to the Crown Prosecution Service drug, the offences of offering to supply, being concerned (CPS) on this issue. All domestic violence complaints, in the supply and being concerned in offering to supply forwarded to the CPS following a police investigation, a controlled drug are also included. are reviewed in accordance with the Code for Crown Personation Prosecutors; prosecutors assess whether there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how and if so, whether a prosecution is in the public interest. many prosecutions the Crown Prosecution Service has Muslim Arbitration Tribunals are not a part of the carried out for identity theft in each of the last five criminal justice process, and do not deal with criminal years; and what the conviction rates were in each such matters. While the views of the victim in any case will year. [134371] always be taken into account, the CPS will not specifically consider the involvement of a Muslim Arbitration Tribunal The Solicitor-General: The records held by the Crown before deciding on a criminal prosecution for a domestic Prosecution Service (CPS) identify the number of offences violence offence. in which a prosecution commenced and reached a first hearing in magistrates courts, rather than the number of Drugs: Prosecutions defendants. There is no specific offence of identity theft however, the Identity Documents Act 2010 created offences Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how under sections 4(1), 5(1) and 6(1), relating to the possession, many prosecutions the Crown Prosecution Service has manufacture and use of false identity documents or of carried out for drug possession and supply offences in using another person’s identity documents. These are each of the last five years, by each class of illegal drug. specific identity documents such as passports or driving [134369] licences. During the last three years, for which data are available, The Solicitor-General: Supply and possession of drugs the number of these offences was as follows: offences are prosecuted under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The records held by the Crown Prosecution 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 Service (CPS) identify the number of offences in which a prosecution commenced and reached a first hearing in Identity Documents Act 2010 (4(1) 41 1,146 1,73 and (2)) magistrates courts, rather than the number of defendants Identity Document Act 2010 (5(1)) 0 14 15 prosecuted. The following tables, therefore, show the Identity Documents Act 2010 (6(1)) 0 341 299 number of offences, rather than defendants, charged for Total 41 1,501 1,587 supply and possession offences for the last five complete 719W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 720W

No central records of the prosecution outcomes of costs incurred by suppliers and (b) the costs to be offences are held by the CPS. To obtain the volume and passed on to consumers in consequence of delivering rate of convictions a manual exercise of reviewing individual the Energy Company Obligation. [133941] case files would need to be undertaken at a disproportionate cost. Gregory Barker: The Department has had a number In addition to the above offences, the use of another of discussions with representatives from energy companies person’s identity may result in other charges such as to ensure that there is timely and accurate reporting of theft, fraud by false representation, possession of articles the costs of delivering the Energy Company Obligation for use in fraud, obtaining services dishonestly and false (ECO), and of how costs are passed on to consumers. accounting. No central record of the circumstances of an offence is maintained. Such data could not reasonably Energy: Cooperatives be obtained locally or nationally other than by undertaking a manual exercise of reviewing individual case files at a Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy disproportionate cost. and Climate Change what funding he has allocated for energy co-operatives in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and Serious Fraud Office (c) 2012-13; to which organisations it has been allocated; and if he will make a statement. [133370] Mike Wood: To ask the Attorney-General what amount has been spent on refurbishing the Serious Gregory Barker: DECC does not hold data on the Fraud Office premises at Cockspur Street, London in allocation of funding to energy co-operatives. the last two years. [133652] However, the Department is planning to shortly The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office moved commission a piece of research to improve the evidence to its Cockspur street premises in November and some base around community energy in the UK which will refurbishment was required prior to the move. To date, feed in to the development of the DECC Community the cost of refurbishment works is £732,000, and the Energy Strategy. total cost is expected to be £779,000 (excluding VAT). As part of this research, the current scale of the community energy sector will be estimated, and a typology of community energy schemes will be developed. The ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE main factors in the success of community energy schemes Coal will also be explored, including what levels of funding have been made available to community energy schemes, Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for and from what sources. Energy and Climate Change when he plans to publish Fish: Conservation his Department’s coal strategy. [134457]

Mr Hayes: The proposition of a coal strategy was Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State first raised with me by the Coal Forum at a meeting last for Energy and Climate Change if he will consider month. The future of coal in a low carbon economy is promoting the use of offshore wind turbines to protect inextricably linked to CCS and I can see there are fish stocks in UK waters. [133839] arguments for bringing together the different strands of Government policy relating to coal in our future energy Mr Hayes [holding answer 17 December 2012]: The mix. I wrote to the Coal Forum on 13 December 2012 Government supports offshore wind because of its potential to confirm that I will be considering their suggestion to play a key part in the UK’s energy mix and as a further and will respond to this and their other source of investment and economic benefit to the UK. recommendations early in the new year. I am aware of scientific research that indicates that Electricity Generation large permanent offshore structures, such as offshore wind turbines, can create feeding grounds for fish, with Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for a potentially beneficial effect on fish stocks. The Energy and Climate Change with reference to responsibility for UK fisheries policy rests with the paragraph 2.8 of his Department’s Gas Generation Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Strategy, published on 5 December 2012, for what although some aspects have been devolved. reasons his Department has increased the expected deployment of new CCGT capacity by 2030. [133242] Fuel Oil: Prices

Mr Hayes: DECC’s latest modelling incorporates a Simon Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for new modelling approach and updated assumptions. The Energy and Climate Change (1) what discussions his latest analysis suggests that there will be more CCGT Department has had with domestic heating oil retirements and assumes higher demand projections suppliers on recent trends in heating oil prices; and if towards 2030, resulting from higher population projections he will make a statement; [133948] and higher transport electricity demand. This leads to a (2) what discussions his Department has had with need for more new CCGTs. Ofgem on recent trends in domestic heating oil prices; Energy Company Obligation and if he will make a statement. [133949]

Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hayes: Pricing is a commercial matter for individual Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has domestic heating oil suppliers. Competition and consumer had with energy suppliers on the reporting of (a) the protection is a matter for the Office of Fair Trading. 721W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 722W

They have taken enforcement action following the Off-Grid Renewables Obligation Energy Market Study in 2011. My officials continue to work closely with the OFT. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government is sympathetic to the predicament Energy and Climate Change if he will consider of those faced with rising costs. That is why we have extending the Renewables Obligation to 2020 to ensure worked with consumer representative organisations and there is a clear transition in place so that investors can industry to launch the Buy Oil Early campaign to adjust to the new financing mechanism for all types of encourage domestic heating oil consumers to buy oil energy generation and prevent a freeze in investment. early before the winter demand increases prices. Oil [134392] buying clubs can be one way of reducing the costs to Mr Hayes: The renewables obligation (RO) is subject consumers and providing access to competitive prices. I to a 2037 end date, and we have no plans to extend this. wrote to Members about this on 19 October 2012 Any accreditations after 31 March 2017 would receive signposting guidance and information about oil buying less than 20 years of RO support. The Government’s clubs, which may be of use to their off-grid constituents. decision was announced in July 2011 in response to the White Paper on “Electricity Market Reform”—six years Natural Gas: Exploration in advance of the closure date. We intend to start letting CfD contracts in early 2014 Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for so investments should not be delayed during the transition Energy and Climate Change (1) with reference to the period. answer of 23 April 2012, Official Report, column 617W, on natural gas: exploration, when he intends to Sellafield make a decision about the resumption of fracking operations; [133395] Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (2) when he intends to publish his Department’s and Climate Change what safety breaches have been response to comments on the report published on reported at Sellafield nuclear plant in the last year; and 17 April 2012 on hydraulic fracturing. [133396] on which occasions the emergency services were required to respond to such alerts. [134445] Mr Hayes: As announced in the House on 13 December Mr Hayes: A total of 24 incidents and events have 2012, Official Report, column 431, we have concluded been formally reported to the Office for Nuclear Regulation that, in principle, fracking for shale gas can be allowed since 1 January 2012. The majority of these related to to resume, subject to new controls to mitigate the risk of minor procedural breaches and equipment faults and seismicity. A full written statement, was tabled in both also included were a small number of incidents relating Houses on 13 December 2012, Official Report, columns to the loss of site services such as steam, electrical 44-52WS, accompanied by a response to comments power and uncontrolled lowering of a load. For each made on the report published on 17 April. incident the ONR is satisfied that Sellafield Ltd took appropriate action without compromising nuclear safety Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy on the site. None of these incidents required the attendance and Climate Change what his policy is on the of the Sellafield site or external emergency services. ownership of the mineral rights to shale gas extraction on the UK mainland. [133832] Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what the Nuclear Mr Hayes: The Petroleum Act 1998, like its predecessor Decommissioning Authority’s latest estimate is for the the Petroleum Act 1934, vests the right to explore, drill total cost of decommissioning the Sellafield plant. for and produce oil and gas in the Crown, and empowers [134446] the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Mr Hayes: The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority’s Davey), to issue licences enabling the licensee to carry latest estimate of the total lifetime cost of decommissioning out such activities, subject to other regulatory checks the Sellafield site is £36.6 billion (discounted) as set out and permits. I have no proposals for change in these in its annual report and accounts for 2011-12. matters. Sick Leave Petroleum Act 1998 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy 8 November 2012, Official Report, column 713-4W, on and Climate Change how many notices he has served sick leave, what assessment he has made of the under section 29 of the Petroleum Act 1998 in each difference in the proportion of working days lost due to year since 1998; and on whom such notices have been ill health between officers at AA grade and at SCS served. [133835] grade; and what assessment he has made of the use of mindfulness-based therapies in reducing the proportion Gregory Barker: Approximately 4,400 Section 29 Notices of working days lost in his Department. [132708] have been served since 1998. Section 29 Notices are served on appropriate parties as defined in the Petroleum Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and Act 1998 (and as amended by the Energy Act 2008). Climate Change (DECC) considers the health and wellbeing These parties include operators, licensees, owners, parties of its staff very seriously. It continues to look at ways in to joint operating agreements or similar, parent companies which it can support staff of all grades, in work and to and associates. return to work. 723W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 724W

Since DECC provided you with data for the 12 month lost due to ill health, at nearly all grades have continued period ending March 2012, the average working days to improve as shown in the following table:

Period ending: Percentage change from March March 2012 June 2012 September 2012 2012 to September 2012

AO 7.4 8.2 6.3 14.9 EO 7.5 8.3 5.2 30.7 HEO 3.8 3.8 3.2 15.8 SEO 3.63 4.2 3.5 3.6 Grade 7 2.3 2.2 2.1 8.7 Grade 6 1.8 2.2 2.4 -33.3 SCS 2.4 1.7 0.8 66.7

DECC understands that mindfulness-based therapies applications for a Warm Front grant are awaiting can be used as a treatment for depression and recognises energy efficiency or insulation measures to be installed that this can be one of the factors involved in staff ill in 2012-13 to date. [134452] health absences. However if this is the case, DECC 1 would leave the treatment to the medical profession, Gregory Barker: 3,202 households who applied to using our occupational health partners to advise us of the Warm Front scheme in 2012-13 are awaiting the the most appropriate approach. installation of a heating measure and 406 are awaiting the installation of insulation measures. Some households Warm Front Scheme may be awaiting both heating and insulation measures. 1 Figure as of end of November 2012. Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 12 December 2012, Official Report, column 312W, on 12 December 2012, Official Report, column 311W, on the Warm Front scheme, how many of the 21,956 the Warm Front scheme, what the average length of eligible applications for a Warm Front grant have had time was between a survey being completed for a Warm energy efficiency or insulation measures installed in Front grant and an energy efficiency measure being 2012-13 to date. [134451] installed in (a) 2012-13 to date and (b) in each of the previous 10 years. [134453] Gregory Barker: 6,0061 households who applied to Warm Front in 2012-13 have had at least one main Gregory Barker: The data required for this PQ are heating or insulation measure installed to date. not held centrally. To provide a response would be at 1 Figure as at end of November 2012. The reported figure is a disproportionate cost. However, the following table snapshot at a point in time and excludes households that have shows the average time in working days for the been surveyed but whose works have yet to be allocated to an installation of heating and insulation measures from installer. the point of allocation to an installer to the point of installation. Carillion Energy Services, the Warm Front Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme manager, routinely monitors timescales from Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of the point of allocation to an installer to the completion 12 December 2012, Official Report, column 312W, on of work in order to measure installer performance the Warm Front scheme, how many successful under the scheme.

Average install time Working days 2005-061 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Insulation installs 30.88 33.18 27.59 33.11 17.22 18.21 21.99 10.68 Heating installs 67.70 81.72 65.81 65.17 44.07 42.36 53.00 13.32 1 Data are not available prior to 2005.

Wind Power become fully operational in the UK. The Department does not hold data on when they were erected.

Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for While whole turbines are not currently manufactured Energy and Climate Change how many wind turbines in the UK, UK companies supply components for wind have been erected in the last three years; and how many turbines which’ are exported to overseas manufacturers. such turbines were manufactured in the UK. [133830] The Government have set aside £60 million to attract large turbine manufacturing to assisted areas in England, with similar support provided by the Scottish Government, Mr Hayes [holding answer 17 December 2012]: In the and companies such as Gamesa, AREVA and Siemens last three years, 490 offshore and 2,150 onshore turbines have announced intentions to establish UK facilities. (of which 1,312 are domestic-scale, under 10kw) have 725W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 726W

Wind Power: Wales Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills following his Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for announcement on 12 December 2012, whether business Energy and Climate Change when he expects to make a finance advisers will be available through the decision on the Brechfa West wind farm application. mentorsme online portal. [134161] [133794] Mr Hayes: The Planning Act 2008 requires the Secretary Michael Fallon: No but the accountancy bodies will of State for Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. shortly publish a dedicated online portal to signpost Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr businesses to Business Finance Advisors. Davey), to take a decision on cases submitted to him by the Planning Inspectorate under that Act within three Business: Loans months of the day following their receipt. In the case of the Brechfa West application, the Secretary of State Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for received the report from the Planning Inspectorate on Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he 12 December 2012 and his decision must, therefore, be made of changes in the rate of net lending to made by 13 March 2013. businesses in each English region in the last year for which figures are available. [134444]

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Michael Fallon: Pursuant to my response to the hon. Member’s previous question of 11 December 2012, Business: Finance Official Report, column 231W, there are a variety of Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for sources of bank lending, including providers of asset, Business, Innovation and Skills following his invoice and trade finance, bank lending, overdrafts and announcement on 12 December 2012, by what date he trade credit. Many of these sources are informal and expects (a) the first and (b) all funds under the Small unregulated and Government does not produce aggregate Business Tranche of the Business Finance Partnership statistics on their entirety. While the Bank of England to be drawn down; and what deadlines, benchmarks collects lending statistics on lending by monetary financial institutions at a national level, these are not broken and targets he has set for this process. [134158] down by region. The British Bankers’ Association does Michael Fallon: Drawdown of the first round of however publish statistics on bank lending to small and funds made available under the Small Business Tranche medium-sized enterprises which are split by region on a of the Business Finance Partnership is subject to legal quarterly basis, which are freely available on their website. and commercial terms being agreed with the selected applicants and in, two cases, parliamentary approval. I Business: Recruitment therefore expect drawdown to start in January 2013. With regard to the remaining funds, due diligence on Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for applicants is ongoing. It is important that in supporting Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking new types of finance the Government is confident taxpayers’ to encourage small and medium-sized enterprises to money is being targeted in the right way, and that small employ staff; and if he will make a statement. [132309] businesses will be able to benefit fully from this support. I hope to be able to announce allocation of the remaining Michael Fallon: The Government wants to support funds in January 2013. growth by breaking down barriers and boosting opportunities by creating the right conditions for businesses Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for to start up and thrive. We have continued to make good Business, Innovation and Skills what timetable he has progress on our Parliament-long review of employment set for legal and commercial terms to be finalised in laws, which is about improving labour market regulation relation to the Small Business Tranche of the Business and focusing on those issues which matter to employers, Finance Partnership following his announcement on 12 without undermining important protections for individuals. December 2012. [134159] Adding to changes already in place, such as the extension Michael Fallon: Completion of legal and commercial of the qualifying period for unfair dismissal, in September negotiations is subject to selected applicants’ agreement, we announced further reforms that will give greater and in two cases, investments are subject to parliamentary certainty and clarity to employers around dismissal approval. I anticipate completion of negotiations and processes, the unfair dismissal compensatory award and investments in January 2013. settlement agreements, as well as further streamlining employment tribunals. These proposed changes will Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for also give small and medium sized enterprises confidence Business, Innovation and Skills following his to take people on. announcement on 12 December 2012, by what date he We have also launched an online tool to make it expects 1,000 business finance advisers to be (a) easier for first-time employers to access the information recruited and (b) available to provide advice to firms; they need when taking on their first member of staff, and what deadlines, benchmarks and targets he has set which is available at: for this process. [134160] https://www.gov.uk/employing-staff Michael Fallon: As of 12 December 2012, there are and the Business in You campaign has Government and over 1,300 accountant offices recruited to the Business the private sector working together to promote a range Finance Adviser Scheme, which are already available to of business help and support on issues which include offer small and medium-sized enterprises advice. recruitment. 727W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 728W

Business: Regulation Jo Swinson: To the best of my knowledge the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), Business, Innovation and Skills which regulations has received one formal representation on the draft Bill. affecting business his Department has withdrawn or The Secretary of State discusses a wide range of issues amended in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which regularly with colleagues in the House. The Home regulations affecting business his Department expects Office is the lead Department for the draft Communications to withdraw or amend in (i) 2013 and (ii) future years; Data Bill and we are aware that businesses have made and what estimate he has made of the net cost to representations directly to them about their concerns. business of each withdrawn or amended regulation. Computers [133728]

Michael Fallon: The Department for Business, Innovation Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for and Skills (BIS) publishes its biannual Statement of Business, Innovation and Skills how much his New Regulation listing a summary of regulations and Department spent on average per desktop computer their impact on business. for each full-time employee in the latest period for which figures are available. [133772] Since 2011, BIS has published four statements listing regulations amended or withdrawn in 2011 and 2012. Jo Swinson: At the end of Q2 (2012-13) the quarterly The fifth statement, published on 17 December 2012, user charge which is based on 3,662 users include service lists regulations due to be introduced between January provisions such as printing was £407 per user. The IT is and June 2013. Regulations withdrawn or amended as a provided through a Fujitsu outsourced contract which result of the Red Tape Challenge are published to the is due to end in 2014 for which the desktop charging same timetable by the Better Regulation Executive in model includes other service items and it is therefore their Statement of New Regulation. not always possible to make a valid comparison with All statements can be accessed from the following other desktop services delivered to other organisations. website: BIS is working with HM Treasury and the supplier to www.gov.uk allow BIS to provide a figure which just covers desktop charges. Once agreed, this information will be available Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for to all future quarterly figures. Business, Innovation and Skills which regulations Cosmetics: EU Law affecting business his Department has introduced in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which regulations Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for affecting business his Department expects to introduce Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what steps the in (i) 2013 and (ii) future years; and what estimate he Government is taking to ensure that cosmetics has made of the cost to business of each regulation. companies based in the UK comply in full with the [133729] prohibition on importing and marketing of animal- Michael Fallon: The Department for Business, Innovation tested cosmetics in line with the 7th amendment to the and Skills (BIS) publishes a biannual Statement of New European Cosmetics Directive, Directive 76/768 EEC, Regulation listing a summary of regulations and their on its entry into force in 2013; [133974] impact on business. (2) what steps the Government is taking to ensure the enforcement in the UK of the prohibition on Since 2011, BIS has published four statements listing importing and marketing of animal-tested cosmetics in regulations introduced in 2011 and 2012. The fifth line with the 7th amendment to the European statement, published on 17 December 2012, lists regulations Cosmetics Directive, Directive 76/768 EEC on its entry due to be introduced between January and June 2013. into force in 2013. [133975] These statements can be accessed from the following website: Jo Swinson [holding answer 17 December 2012]: Day- www.gov.uk to-day enforcement of the regulations is the responsibility of local authority Trading Standards services. Trading Communications Data Bill (Draft) Standards have access to the safety assessment dossiers which companies must retain for the cosmetic products Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for they supply. These dossiers will contain information on Business, Innovation and Skills with which businesses how any testing has been carried out. and organisations his Department has met to discuss The Department will work with Trading Standards the implications of the draft Communications Data to develop guidance on these provisions ahead of Bill; and if he will make a statement. [134385] implementation of the 7th amendment to the European cosmetics directive. Anybody who is concerned that a Jo Swinson: According to records held by the Department product or its ingredients are supplied illegally should for Business, Innovation and Skills, one overseas-owned contact the Citizens Advice Consumer Service. multinational company raised concerns about the draft Bill during a meeting to discuss a number of issues of Employee Ownership interest to that company. Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to his Business, Innovation and Skills what representations he Department’s consultation on employee owner status, has received on the draft Communications Data Bill; by what process a reasonable price for the sale of shares and if he will make a statement. [134386] back to an employer will be established. [134024] 729W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 730W

Jo Swinson: We want this scheme to be flexible and Companies are free to make choices about what type of open to all companies and employees who would benefit employment contracts they offer and the Government from it. It will be up to the employer and employee considers that companies are best placed to decide how owner to determine the conditions for buy back including they hire people. how to establish a fair price. The Government will be It is possible that some companies may only offer providing guidance to assist both parties in how to do employee shareholder contracts in the same way that this. they can currently offer contracts which fall under either the worker and employee statuses. Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to his EU Law Department’s consultation on employee owner status, whether the scheme will be restricted to UK company Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for shares or whether shares and partnership interests in Business, Innovation and Skills (1) which EU directives foreign companies will also be included. [134025] his Department transposed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which EU directives his Department expects to Jo Swinson: It is the Government’s intention to ensure transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and that this status is available to all companies with share what estimate he has made of the cost of each such capital. The Government amendments tabled on directive to the (A) public purse and (B) private sector; 7 December 2012 ensured that overseas companies and [133687] European companies would be able to use the status. (2) which regulations his Department introduced as The employing company will also be able to grant a result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to shares in a parent company (which could be an overseas date; which regulations his Department expects to company). implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he has made Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) public Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has purse and (B) private sector. [133688] made of the cost to businesses of implementing the employee ownership scheme. [134026] Jo Swinson: Information on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills’ (BIS) implementation of EU law Jo Swinson: The employee owner status is a new has not until recently been collected centrally.Consequently employment status that companies limited by shares we will need to draw information both on the transposition could use if they feel that the status would be beneficial of directives and introduction of regulations to implement to them. The main costs to companies that choose to EU legislation for the years 2011 and 2012 from a use this status would be the costs related to issuing number of sources. For EU measures where impact shares to their employee owners. assessments have been published we will be able to The costs of putting in place an employee share provide the costs to business. We will deposit this scheme will vary significantly depending on the information in the Libraries of the House in early characteristics and size of a company. The majority of January 2013. these costs will be one-off costs. This suggests that on However, we do not believe it would be proportionate aggregate, there would be an overall net benefit to to also provide estimates of the cost to BIS of preparing, companies that use the status. consulting on and implementing these measures. There may also be costs to businesses of familiarising In the recently published Fifth Statement of New themselves with the amended Employment Rights Act 1996, Regulation (SONR5) the Government has, for the first regardless of whether they use the employee shareholder time, published new European Union measures which status or not. are being implemented in UK law and the associated costs to business from January to June 2013. This can Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for be found at Business, Innovation and Skills what eligibility criteria https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bis-fifth- will apply to firms and employees taking part in the statement-of-new-regulation-regulations-covering-january-to- employee ownership scheme. [134027] june-2013 We intend to also provide this information for the next Jo Swinson: The eligibility criteria are clearly set out SONR periods which are: SONR6 (July to December in clause 27 of the Growth and Infrastructure Bill. 2013) and SONR7 (January to June 2014). We believe They are that all companies with share capital, including this will considerably increase transparency and help overseas companies and European companies may offer industry prepare for the introduction of EU as well as this type of contract and the individual must accept the domestic legislation. contract and receive at least £2,000 worth of shares. When EU measures are brought into law the impact assessments are placed in the impact assessments library, Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.ialibrary.bis.gov.uk/ Business, Innovation and Skills following his As the hon. Member would expect these provide costs Department’s consultation on employee owner status, to business. whether he expects firms to advertise vacancies which are only available under employee owner status. [134055] Exports: Iraq

Jo Swinson: The employee shareholder status is only Mr Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for open to entities which are companies limited by shares. Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the 731W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 732W publication of sovereign debt data by UK Export The HEFCE validates all Unistats data and each Finance (UKEF) in October 2012, which defence further education college (and each university) was exports comprised the one per cent of Iraq’s sovereign given a preview of their Unistats data to check for debt owed to UKEF attributed to the defence sector. accuracy and highlight any errors. In addition, as part [132653] of its early review of the Key Information Set, HEFCE are undertaking a small number of audits to establish Michael Fallon: UK Export Finance, formally the whether there are systematic issues with the data. HEFCE Export Credits Guarantee Department (ECGD), recently intend to continue this audit activity in future years. published information, available in the Libraries of the House, about sovereign debts payable to ECGD. Government Departments: Disclosure of Information Paragraph 10 of the explanatory note sets out that, due to the age and incomplete nature of some of our records, judgment has to be made in some instances as Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for to the precise nature of the goods and services that were Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) benchmarks supplied. and (b) targets he has set for the Data Strategy Board Breakthrough Fund and its delivery. [134147] The list of goods and services that make up the 1% of the original Iraq debt categorised as defence are: Matthew Hancock: The Data Strategy Board (DSB) Vehicles spare parts, helicopter spares/electrical components, Breakthrough Fund has been established to assist open medical materials, medical laboratory equipment, Centaur military data proposals where Government Departments, vehicles and spares, Sabre 51 beacons, Beethoven exploders, drilling machinery and equipment. Government agencies and local authorities have identified short term barriers to data release. Foreign Students: Finance The target for the fund is to enable the increased release of public sector data with growth potential. This Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for will be informed by priorities recommended by the Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on DSB, the Open Data User Group and Sector Transparency offering maintenance grants for living costs to UK Boards which are currently developing. The benchmark students studying at foreign universities. [133741] for the fund will be the current data-set available through: www.Data.gov.uk Mr Willetts: There are no student support arrangements and it will also build upon the identification of growth in place in England for those students seeking to study enhancing data sets recommended through the DSB outside the UK. Therefore, students in England that and the Shakespeare Review, which will report on spring choose to study at Higher Education Institutions outside 2013. the UK are not eligible to receive student support, including maintenance grants and loans from Student Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Finance England. We have no plans to change this. Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) benchmarks However, maintenance loans and grants continue to and (b) targets he has set for the Open Data be available to English students undertaking a period of Immersion Programme and its delivery. [134148] study abroad provided that period of study forms a part of the course that they are taking at a Higher Education Matthew Hancock: The Open Data Immersion Institution within the UK. For example, Erasmus students Programme comprises a series of events with prizes to studying abroad for a year (or part of a year) remain encourage small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) eligible for maintenance support. The Government also and start-ups to work with data owners to better understand supports students taking up to a year abroad to study in how to re-use data sets in ways which create business a non-EU country. These students remain eligible for a opportunities. tuition-fee loan and remain eligible to receive maintenance This is a new programme and no benchmarks currently grants and loans. exist but we will build the baseline from the first event in Further Education the programme. The target will be to provide support for as many market potential products as emanate from the events and will be dependent on the quality of the Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for ideas from SME participants. It is therefore not feasible Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has to set a target for the programme, however, the programme made of the accuracy of statistics held on the Unistats will be subject to an independent impact evaluation. website on further education colleges; and if he will make a statement. [133848] Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Willetts: The Unistats website provides prospective Business, Innovation and Skills when bidding for firms students with comparable information, known as the wishing to apply for funds under the Open Data Key Information Set, for higher education courses at Immersion Programme will (a) open and (b) close. universities and further education colleges. This includes [134149] data from the National Student Survey (NSS) and the Destination of Leavers of Higher Education (DLHE) Matthew Hancock: The Immersion Programme is a surveys, which are independently collected by a survey series of events for firms to participate in and not a agency appointed by the Higher Education Funding fund for bids. Council for England (HEFCE). Data for further education BIS is currently working with the Open Data Institute, colleges is also linked to the Individual Learner Record, the Technology Strategy Board and the National which is subject to its own audit requirements. Endowment for Science Technology and the Arts (NESTA) 733W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 734W to determine the event themes and once agreed the Local Enterprise Partnerships: Greater London opening and closing dates for the events will be publicised. These dates will be available in January 2013 and will Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for be publicised on the Open Data Institute website at: Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer www.theodi.org of 11 December 2012, Official Report, column 235W, on Local Economic Partnerships: Greater London, if Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for he will publish the terms of reference of the London Business, Innovation and Skills when bidding for Enterprise Panel Capacity Fund award; and if he will public sector bodies wishing to apply for funds under make a statement. [133996] the Data Strategy Board Breakthrough Fund will (a) open and (b) close. [134150] Michael Fallon: Guidance for the local enterprise Matthew Hancock: The Data Strategy Board partnership Capacity Fund is available on the Government’s Breakthrough Fund is open to applications from website: Government Departments, Government agencies and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/local-enterprise- local authorities. partnership-capacity-fund-round-2 Applications to the fund will be considered on an ongoing basis over the remainder of the spending review Money Lenders period and we are prepared to assess applications from January 2013. Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Insolvency Business, Innovation and Skills how many reports have been received by the illegal money lending teams in Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for each (a) local authority area and (b) constituency; Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his how many such reports resulted in further action being Department has taken to ensure that (a) shareholders taken by the illegal money lending teams; and how and (b) other types of owners are not allowed to many successful convictions of illegal money lenders structure investment in companies in such a way as to have resulted from such reports in each of the last three become preferred creditors in the event of insolvency. years. [133918] [133849] Jo Swinson: The Department does not hold this Jo Swinson: The order of priority in insolvency situations detailed level of information. Following the Government’s has been long established, and the list of preferred reforms to the consumer landscape, since April 2012, creditors is kept to an absolute minimum. Secured the National Trading Standards Board now receives lending from whatever legitimate source is however these reports, and reports to BIS in aggregate. vital to our commercial landscape and the elevated Until April 2012, BIS received quarterly aggregate position of such lenders in the creditor hierarchy recognises reports from the Tackling Illegal Money Lending Teams its importance. in England, Wales and Scotland based on activity in It will be for the appointed officeholder of an insolvent local authorities. Between April 2004 and April 2012, company to consider the nature of any transaction(s) the projects had: that led to any charge(s) being obtained and the validity Identified over 2,500 illegal money lenders and arrested over of security held. 600 illegal money lenders and secured over 220 prosecutions, resulting in prison sentencing totalling over 117 years—some Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for cases were connected to other, more serious criminal activity Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his which took precedence over illegal money lending prosecutions. Department has taken to ensure that genuine Seized over £2.1 million in cash. investment into a company cannot be registered as a Identified over £28 million of assets that could be seized under loan in order to allow investors to become preferred the Proceeds of Crime Act. creditors in the event of insolvency. [133850] Helped over 16,000 victims of loan sharks. Jo Swinson: It is a fundamental feature of our securitisation and insolvency law that lenders are able New Businesses to invest in companies by way of secured loans. Secured lending is vital to our commercial landscape, enabling Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for businesses to obtain funding to trade where they may Business, Innovation and Skills what progress his otherwise be unable to do so. Its importance is particularly Department is making on achieving the Government’s recognised by the elevated position of such lenders in aim of making the UK the best place to start a the creditor hierarchy. business; what recent discussions he has had with the Local Enterprise Partnerships Confederation of British Industry on business start up; and if he will make a statement. [132456] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of the Michael Fallon: We want to make the UK the best population of England is covered by local enterprise place in the world to start and grow a business, and for partnerships; what plans he has to extend coverage; the next decade to be the most entrepreneurial and and if he will make a statement. [132631] dynamic in Britain’s history. There were 450,000 new company registrations in 2011/12—the highest since Michael Fallon: There are a total of 39 local enterprise records began in 1997/98 and up from 360,000 in 2009/10. partnerships which cover 100% of the population of The World Bank1 ranks the UK third in the G7 and England. 19th overall in the world for ’ease of starting a business’. 735W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 736W

Lord Young was tasked by Government to assess the health, as part of its work to promote best practice landscape for supporting new small businesses and his around creating a modern workplace. Its seminar entitled report and guide on small business start-ups and enterprise ’Health and Engagement’ took place in Birmingham on was published on 28 May 2012. A key message of his 13 December 2012 and a ’Health and Well-being’ conference report was that this is a great time to start a business, is planned for March 2013 in Nottingham. ACAS have with record numbers of people becoming their own also published an advisory booklet on ’Health, Work boss, supported by a wide range of help and encouragement and Wellbeing’, which is available on its website: to entrepreneurs from all ages and backgrounds. www.acas.org.uk We continue to engage with the CBI, alongside other In taking this work forward, this Department works business representative bodies, to discuss a range of closely with DWP, who also have a keen policy interest issues including barriers to start-ups. The Secretary of in this subject. State meets with the CBI on a regular basis and discussions cover business financing, including our emerging proposals Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for for a business bank. Business, Innovation and Skills what recent research 1 Source: his Department has conducted into the relationship Doing Business 2013 report between workplace well-being and productivity. [134269] Occupational Health Jo Swinson: In October 2012 BIS published a study, ‘Promoting High Performance Working’, which assessed Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the prevalence of high performance working practices Business, Innovation and Skills what recent steps his and the factors that influence their use in small and Department has taken to promote best practice on medium-sized enterprises. The presence of high performance workplace well-being. [134268] work practices is associated with improved business performance and contributes to well-being; employees Jo Swinson: This Department is committed to promoting report higher job satisfaction, motivation, involvement a culture of workplace well-being, recognising that this and commitment. More information about high is good for employees and also for employers. performance working can be found on the UK Commission A clear example of this is BIS’s work to promote a for Employment and Skills’ (UKCES) website. culture of flexible working. As well as extending the BIS has also published a series of Work-Life Balance right to request flexible working to all, we are working, Surveys which look at issues including working hours, with the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), to the provision and take-up of flexible working arrangements, drive culture change, particularly to encourage employers and employee attitudes to work-life balance. to think about the business benefits of flexible working These publications are available in the BIS area of the when they recruit new employees. An employer group following website: led by working families will be making practical recommendations about how businesses can benefit www.gov.uk from flexible working and how they should consider building it into their recruitment practices. Recruitment This Department has also jointly sponsored the Sickness Absence Review with DWP, where Dame Carol Black Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for and David Frost brought forward a series of Business, Innovation and Skills how many civil recommendations intended to foster a more coherent servants his Department has recruited in each month approach, through encouraging employers and individuals since 2010; what the cost to the public purse was of to play a more proactive role in managing absence and such recruitment in each year since 2010; and if he will return to work. The review was conducted in the context make a statement. [132310] of the Growth Agenda and fed into the wider Employment Law Review. The Government will publish its response Jo Swinson: The number and cost of new entrants to shortly. the civil service recruited by the Department for Business Innovation and Skills since May 2010 when the civil BIS has also been a keen supporter of the excellent service recruitment freeze was implemented is given in programme “Engage for Success”. This voluntary the following tables. The tables also includes all leavers movement of leaders, managers and engagement from the Department. practitioners is doing good work to promote the business benefits of effective employee engagement. ″Engage for 2010 Success″ recently launched a set of practical tools aimed Recruits Leavers at helping employers understand how to achieve employee May 4 27 engagement through focusing on four strategic enablers: June 1 24 strategic narrative; engaging managers; employee voice; July 1 33 and integrity. Further information can be found at: August 1 40 www.engageforsuccess.org September 1 250 BIS’s partner organisations also have a role to play October 20 141 here, including the UK Commission for Employment November 1 43 and Skills (UKCES), who have responsibility for promoting December 0 18 Investors in People, a standard that puts employees and Total number 29 576 their interests at the heart of a business’ success. In addition, ACAS also runs conferences to support workplace 737W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 738W

2010 he has had with the Secretary of State for Communities Recruits Leavers and Local Government on regeneration in (a) Southend and (b) Essex. [132607] Total cost (£) 200,126

2011 Michael Fallon: The Secretary of State for Business, Recruits Leavers Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable) and the Secretary of State January 4 14 for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. February 6 25 Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles) March 1 101 meet frequently to discuss growth and regeneration April 0 31 issues as do the Ministers of State responsible for local May 1 11 growth in BIS and CLG but they have not met specifically June 0 226 to discuss Essex or Southend. July 3 27 August 2 36 The South East LEP sets the economic priorities September 3 34 across Essex, Kent and East Sussex at a strategic level, October 23 37 with input from local authorities and business. The November 2 10 LEP has secured an Enterprise Zone at Harlow and is December 5 20 administering some £50 million of Growing Places Fund. Total number 50 572 Alongside that work, Southend is one of 20 cities invited by Government to propose a Wave 2 City Deal, on which work is progressing well. Total cost (£) 286,407 The Thames Gateway South Essex Partnership brings 2012 together the ’Gateway’ boroughs, including Southend, Recruits Leavers to tackle the long term infrastructure and growth challenges January 34 72 of the area—overseen through the Thames Gateway February 9 17 Strategic Group by the Thames Gateway Minister, the March 16 21 Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local April 14 28 Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Great May 9 20 Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) June 6 27 Officials in central and local government are working July 16 21 closely with each other and with the private sector to August 4 44 ensure coherence between these arrangements and to September 12 29 help achieve growth in the Essex economy. Total number 120 279 Regional Growth Fund Total cost (£) 421,022 These figures include apprentices and graduate recruits Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for from the civil service fast stream programme who are Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer exempt from the recruitment freeze, as well as fixed of 27 November 2012, Official Report, column 298W, term appointees recruited for their specialist expertise. on regional growth fund, what the monetary value was of each individual award under round one of the Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Regional Growth Fund which has not yet received a Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to final agreed offer. [133771] recruit staff to posts in his Department in each of the next 12 months; and if he will make a statement. Michael Fallon: Seven individual awards from Round [132311] One of the Regional Growth Fund have not yet received a final agreed offer as the company has not been able to Jo Swinson: Given the current recruitment freeze, agree terms and conditions. The following table shows external recruitment will be limited to bringing in those the monetary value of each of these awards. BIS officials with skills that are not available or cannot be quickly aim to get these offers agreed by the end of the year. developed internally as business critical vacancies arise. In addition, in the next financial year at more junior Number Amount (£ million) levels we are expecting to offer opportunities for up to 60 new entrants by using a combination of the civil 1 4,010,000 service fast stream graduate recruitment programme, 2 12,900,000 apprenticeships and graduate internships. 3 4,000,000 This represents around 2% of the total workforce of 4 2,000,000 the core Department and UK Trade and Investment 5 1,300,000 and is not expected to increase current headcount given 6 3,600,000 turnover. 7 17,850,000 All other vacancies will be filled from within the civil service. Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Regeneration: Essex Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 9 November 2012, Official Report, column 779W, on Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for regional growth fund, how many (a) bids and (b) Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions individual awards under Round One only of the 739W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 740W

Regional Growth Fund have not yet drawn down whose principal employer is (i) a non-departmental funds; and what the monetary value is of such bids and public body (NDPB), (ii) an Executive agency, (iii) a awards. [133773] non-ministerial Government Department and (iv) another public body in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12 and (C) 2012-13 Michael Fallon: There were 67 successful bids under to date. Round 1.12 projects have since been withdrawn. 21 projects with a total value of £88.5 million have not claimed 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 to date payments to date. Secondment NDPB 2 — — Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Public 11— Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer corporation of 27 November 2012, Official Report, column 298W, Public body — 1 — on Regional Growth Fund, from which regions the Executive agency — 1 2 awards under round one of the Regional Growth Fund which have not yet agreed a final offer came. [134023] Loan in/temporary transfer Michael Fallon: Seven individual awards from Non-ministerial —— 1 Round One of the Regional Growth Fund have not yet Department received a final agreed offer as the company has not Another ——90 been able to agree terms and conditions. Of these, two Government are from the west midlands, one from the east midlands Department and two each from the north-east and north-west Unknown 180 177 8 respectively. Total 183 180 101 Officials in the Department for Business, Innovation The data for 2010/11 and 2011/12 does not show the and Skills aim to get these offers agreed by the end of breakdown by type of employer for loans or temporary the year. transfers into the Department, as the Department has only recently started to capture this data However, the majority of these are people coming into BIS from Secondment other Government Departments.

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for HEALTH Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many (a) Accident and Emergency Departments: Greater London secondments and (b) temporary transfers to his Department there have been of staff whose principal Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health employer is (i) a non-departmental public body, (ii) an how many people (a) attended accident and emergency Executive agency, (iii) a non-ministerial Government (A&E) departments, (b) spent up to 120 minutes Department and (iv) another public body in (A) between arrival and departure in A&E, (c) spent 2010-11, (B) 2011-12 and (C) 2012-13 to date; [134155] between 121 and 240 minutes before departure in A&E (2) how many staff whose principal employer is (a) a and (d) spent over 240 minutes before departure in non-departmental public body, (b) an Executive A&E in (i) North West London Hospitals NHS Trust agency, (c) a non-ministerial Government Department and (ii) all London A&E departments in (A) 2010-11 and (d) another public body are currently working in and (B) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. his Department; and how many such staff there were in [133670] (i) 2011 and (ii) 2010. [134156] Dr Poulter: The number of attendances at accident and emergency for the specified providers by the duration Jo Swinson: The following table shows the number of to departure for each attendance in 2010-11 and 2011-12 (a) secondments and (b) temporary transfers to the is shown in the following tables. Data for 2011-12 is Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) provisional and is therefore subject to change.

Number of attendances1 at accident and emergency for specified providers2 by the duration to departure3 for each attendance in 2010-11 and 2011-12 provisional4, activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector

2010-11

Duration to departure

Minutes

Provider code Provider name Total attendances 0-120 121-240 >240 Unknown

RV8 North West London 172,300 64,112 98,536 9,652 — Hospitals NHS Trust

Q36 London SHA 3,274,513 1,284,888 1,809,444 179,155 1,026 Treatment 741W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 742W

2011-12 (Provisional) Duration to departure Minutes Provider code Provider name Total attendances 0-120 121-240 >240 Unknown

RV8 North West London 206,885 105,392 91,286 10,207 — Hospitals NHS Trust Q36 London SHA 3,627,530 1,524,814 1,905,452 161,736 35,528 Treatment 1 A and E attendances Activity at A and E Departments is recorded as the number of attendances. It should be noted that an individual person may attend the same or different A and E departments within any given year and therefore this does not represent the number of patients. 2 A and E service providers A provider code is a unique code that identifies an organisation acting as a health care provider (e.g. NHS trust or primary care trust). Hospital providers can also include treatment centres (TC). Normally, if data is tabulated by health care provider, the figure for an NHS trust gives the activity of all the sites as one aggregated figure. However, in the case of those with embedded treatment centres, this data is quoted separately. In these cases, ‘-X’ is appended to the code for the rest of the trust, to remind users that the figures are for all sites of the trust excluding the treatment centres. The quality of TC returns are such that data may not be complete. Some NHS trusts have not registered their TC as a separate site, and it is therefore not possible to identify their activity separately. Data from some independent sector providers, where the onus for arrangement of dataflows is on the commissioner, may be missing. Care must be taken when using this data as the counts may belower than true figures. 3 Duration to departure The total amount of time spent in the A and E department. This calculated as the difference in time from arrival at A and E to the time when the patient is discharged from A and E care. This includes being admitted to hospital, died in the department, discharged with no follow up or discharged—referred to another specialist department. 4 Provisional data The data is provisional and may be incomplete or contain errors for which no adjustments have yet been made. Counts produced from provisional data are likelytobe lower than those generated for the same period in the final dataset. This shortfall will be most pronounced in the final month of the latest period i.e. November from the (month 9) April to November extract. It is also probable that clinical data are not complete, which may in particular affect the last two months of any given period. There may also be errors due to coding inconsistencies that have not yet been investigated and corrected. Data quality: Hospital Episode Statistics are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts in England and from some independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The Health and Social Care Information Centre liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre.

Antibiotics: Research NHS Blood and Transplant England in each of the last 12 months for which data is available. [134390] Mr Barron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when the UK 5 Year Anti-Microbial Resistance Strategy and Action Plan will be published. [134262] Dr Poulter: NHS Blood and Transplant (NHSBT) is Dr Poulter: The “UK Five YearAntimicrobial Resistance responsible for the provision of a reliable, efficient Strategy and Action Plan 2013-2018” is expected to be supply of blood to hospitals in England and North published in February 2013. Wales. Blood The number of units of blood collected is set out in Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for the following table: Health how many units of blood were collected by

Monthly whole blood collections by NHSBT in England and North Wales Monthly totals for whole blood collections in England North Wales England and North Wales

2011 December 153,094 1,788 154,882

2012 January 166,662 1,738 168,400 February 152,498 1,366 153,864 March 160,467 1,860 162,327 April 158,486 1,658 160,144 May 169,626 1,833 171,459 June 153,001 1,588 154,589 July 164,582 1,707 166,289 August 161,736 1,731 163,467 September 141,887 1,695 143,582 October 162,792 1,514 164,306 November 162,183 1,630 163,813 Overall total number of whole blood collections in last 12 months — — 1,927,122 Source: NHS Blood and Transplant 743W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 744W

Castlebeck Norman Lamb: Ministers and officials have meetings and receive representations from a wide range of Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State organisations and individuals as part of the process of for Health whether he has received a full copy of policy development and delivery. These include the review for Castlebeck produced by representations on all aspects of epilepsy care as well as PricewaterhouseCoopers for Castlebeck Limited. sudden unexpected death in epilepsy. As was the case [134387] with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all such meetings and representations. Norman Lamb: The Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), The previous Administration published the national has not received a full copy of the internal review for service framework (NSF) for long-term conditions in Castlebeck Ltd produced by PricewaterhouseCoopers. 2005 as a 10-year strategy to improve access, experience and outcomes for people with a long-term neurological Death: Weather condition. By implementing the NSF’s quality requirements, local service commissioners would support improvements to areas such as diagnosis/treatment and information Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for provision, which would reduce the risk of seizures and Health how many excess winter deaths there were in epilepsy related deaths. We have made no overall assessment England in each year since 1997. [134389] of the effectiveness of implementation of the NSF, though the long-term neurological conditions research Dr Poulter: The Office for National Statistics publishes initiative has provided some information on its impact. national statistics detailing the number of excess winter The mandate to the NHS Commissioning Board sets deaths in England annually. Excess winter deaths are out the objectives for the national health service and calculated as the difference between the number of highlights the areas of health and care where the deaths during the four winter months (December to Government expects to see improvements. The objectives March) and the average number of deaths during the in the mandate focus on those areas identified as being preceding autumn (August to November) and the following of greatest importance to people and include managing summer (April to July). Figures for the latest winter on-going physical and mental health conditions. In this season (2011-12) are provisional and rounded to the respect, the mandate seeks improvements in the way nearest 100; figures for all other winters are final and care is provided to people by centring care on the rounded to the nearest 10. person rather than on the specific condition. Number of excess winter deaths in England, 1997-98 to 2011-12 Winter season Excess winter deaths EU Law 1997-98 21,740 1998-99 44,010 1999-2000 45,650 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2000-01 23,290 (1) which EU directives his Department transposed in 2001-02 25,790 (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which EU directives his 2002-03 22,620 Department expects to transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) the 2003-04 21,930 next two years; and what estimate he has made of the cost of each such directive to the (A) public purse and 2004-05 29,740 (B) private sector; [133703] 2005-06 23,740 2006-07 22,380 (2) which regulations his Department introduced as 2007-08 23,290 a result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to 2008-09 34,000 date; which regulations his Department expects to 2009-10 24,170 implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) 2013 and 2010-11 24,120 (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he has made of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) public 2011-12 22,800 purse and (B) private sector. [133704] Source: Office for National Statistics Excess Winter Mortality in England and Wales, 2011-12 (Provisional) and 2010-11 (Final), published 29 November Dr Poulter: The Department of Health is responsible 2012: for the transposition of the following European Union www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health2/excess-winter- (EU) directives into United Kingdom law and introducing mortality-in-england-and-wales/2011-12--provisional--and-2010-11-- final-/index.html the following regulations as a result of EU legislation: 1. EU directives transposed or to be transposed: Epilepsy Directive 2010/53/EU (organ transplantation) Directive 2010/53/EU on standards of quality and David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for safety of human organs intended for transplantation Health (1) what representations he has received on the was transposed by the deadline, 27 August 2012. The effectiveness of the Government’s strategy on (a) estimated setup cost for the public sector (NHS both epilepsy diagnosis and management and (b) sudden centrally and at transplant centres) is £2.758 million, death and epilepsy; and if he will make a statement; with an ongoing cost over a 10-year period of around [134050] £1.605 million per year. Over the same period, the (2) whether the Government intends to review its set-up cost for the private sector was estimated at £300,000 strategy on sudden death and epilepsy. [134051] with an annual ongoing cost of £345,000. 745W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 746W

Directive 2010/84/EU (Pharmacovigilance) This regulation did not lead to additional annual The Department transposed Directive 2010/84/EU costs. amending, as regards pharmacovigilance, Directive 2001/ Further technical amendments based on Commission 83/EC on the Community code relating to medicinal Regulation (EC) 712/2012 will be included in the Medicines products for human use in July 2012. The final impact (Products for Human Use) (Fees) Regulations 2013. assessment identified annual cost to UK business at £4.6 million (annual costs £7.6 million, annual benefits The Human Medicines Regulations 2012 £3.0 million). The Human Medicines Regulations 2012 (SI No. 2012/ Directive 2011/24/EU (cross border health care) 1916) implement Directive 2010/84/EU amending as We plan to implement Directive 2011/24/EU on cross regards Pharmacovigilance Directive 2001/83/EC and border health care allowing EU citizens to seek planned Regulation (EU) 1235/2010 amending as regards health care treatment in other EU member states on pharmacovigilance Regulation (EC) No. 726/2004. 25 October 2013. The estimated costs and benefits of The Medical Devices (Amendment) Regulations 2012 implementing the directive will be included in an impact assessment as part of the Department’s consultation The Medical Devices (Amendment) Regulations 2012 process now planned by spring 2013. (SI 2012/1426) implement Directive 2011/100/EU amending Directive 98/79/EC on in vitro diagnostic medical devices. Directive 2011/62/EU (falsified medicines) We will transpose Directive 2011/62/EU in 2013. An Regulation 722/2012 initial assessment of the costs of the directive has been Regulations to be made to implement Regulation made in a current public consultation. This assessment 722/2012 concerning particular requirements as regards identifies annual cost to UK business at £13.1 million the requirements laid down in Council Directives 90/385/ (annual costs £13.11 million, annual benefits £0.013 million). EEC and 93/42/EEC with respect to active implantable Directive 2011/100/EU (in vitro diagnostic medical devices) medical devices and medical devices manufactured utilising Directive 2011/100/EU, placing variant Creutzfeld-Jacob tissues of animal origin; maximum cost on UK private disease (vCJD) assays into a technical annex of directive sector of £24,000 per annum. 98/79/EC that subjects in vitro diagnostic medical devices Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) No. 520/2012 (IVDs) to the greatest level of pre-market scrutiny, was transposed in May 2012. The current costs on the Regulations to be made to implement. Commission public and private sector, as set out in the final impact Implementing Regulation (EU) No. 520/2012 on the assessment, are estimated to be nil insofar as there are performance of pharmacovigilance activities provided not currently any vCJD IVDs on the market. The for in Regulation (EC) No. 726/2004 and Directive potential future costs per assay are estimated to have a 2001/83/EC. These regulations will jointly implement one-off cost of between £12,000 and £18,000 and annual this regulation and the falsified medicines directive. costs of between £9,000 and £10,000. 3. Directives not yet transposed Directive 2012/15/EU Directive 2009/39 (PARNUTS) The Department need to transpose Commission Implementing Directive 2012/15/EU laying down The PARNUTS directive for particular nutritional information procedures for the exchange, between member uses (Directive 2009/39) is subject to an implementation states, of human organs, intended for transplantation timetable. It is close to political agreement which would but hope to do so by amending a definition in the lead to UK implementing regulations in 2015 or 2016. Quality and Safety of Organs Intended for Transplantation The following directives and regulations are currently Regulations 2012 (2012 No. 1501). Moreover, the present under negotiation and are not expected to be fully policy thinking is that the amendment might be included transposed or to enter into force before 2015-16. These with other tissue regulations so there would be no include: significant extra cost. Directive 2001/83/EC, Regulation (EC) No. 178/2002 and Directive 2012/26/EU (Pharmacovigilance) Regulation (EC) No. 1223/2009 and Proposal for a Regulation of The Department will transpose Directive 2012/26/EU the European Parliament and of the Council on in vitro diagnostic amending, as regards pharmacovigilance, Directive 2001/ medical devices. 83/EC on the Community code relating to medicinal Proposal for a Decision of the European Parliament and of products for human use in October 2013. This directive the Council on serious cross border threats to health. makes minor procedural amendments and we do not Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of expect additional costs. the Council on establishing a Health for Growth Programme, the 2. Regulations introduced as a result of EU legislation third multi-annual programme of EU action in the field of health including technical amendments: for the period 2014-2020 (First Reading). Commission Regulation (EU) No. 712/2012 of 3 August Proposal for a directive amending Council Directive 89/105/EEC 2012 amending Regulation (EC) No. 1234/2008 concerning of 21 December 1988 relating to the transparency of measures the examination of variations to the terms of marketing regulating the pricing of medicinal products for human use and authorisations for medicinal products for human use their inclusion within the scope of national health insurance systems. and veterinary medicinal products: This regulation has led to some technical amendment Regulation on clinical trials on medical products for human use. of the Medicines (Products for Human Use) (Fees) In order to increase transparency, in the forthcoming Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/504). The amending statutory Statement of New Regulation (SNR5) the Government instrument (SI) is the Medicines (Products for Human will, for the first time, be publishing those new EU Use) (Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/712) measures which are being implemented in UK law and which came into force on 2 November 2012. have a direct effect on business. 747W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 748W

Health Professions: Training General practitioner trainee appointments 2009-12 Number Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 2,691 Health how many students entered training to become 2010 2,800 a (a) nurse, (b) midwife and (c) GP in England in 2011 2,658 each of the last five years. [134388] 2012 2,669 Source: www.openrecruitment.org.uk Dr Poulter: The Department does not collect figures Heart Diseases: Children on nurses and midwives entering training. However, the number of training places commissioned for nursing Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for and midwifery is collected. Health how many times paediatric cardiac transplant The following table shows the number of full-time services have been moved between hospitals in the last equivalent commissions for nursing and midwifery in 20 years; and how long the process took to complete the last five years. for each such transfer. [134461] Nursing and midwifery training commissions 2007-08 to 2011-12 Dr Poulter: There have been no occasions where Commissions paediatric cardiac transplant services have been moved Nursing Midwifery between hospitals. 2007-08 19,352 2,071 Hernias: Greater London 2008-09 20,663 2,272 2009-10 20,829 2,482 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2010-11 20,092 2,488 how many finished admissions episodes there were and 2011-12 17,741 2,484 what the (a) mean and (b) median time waited was in Note: The midwifery figures include both degree and 18 month diploma courses. days for hernia repair procedures in (i) North West Source: London Hospitals NHS Trust and (ii) all London acute Multi-professional education and training monitoring returns hospitals in (A) 2010-11 and (B) 2011-12; and if he will The actual number of training commissions for nurses make a statement. [133669] and midwives in 2012-13 will not be available until May Dr Poulter: The number of finished admission episodes 2013. (FAEs) and mean and median time waited (days) for The number of general practitioner trainees appointed hernia repair procedures during 2010-11 and 2011-12 for 2008 are not held by the Department. The numbers for North West London Hospitals NHS Trust and appointed in England since 2009 are shown in the London strategic health authority is shown in the following following table. table.

Number of finished admission episodes (FAEs)1 and mean and median time waited2 (days) for North West London Hospitals NHS Trust and for London strategic health authority (SHA) of treatment for hernia repair procedures3 for 2010-11 and 2011-12, activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector 2010-11 2011-12 Mean time Median time Mean time Median time Procedure Total FAEs waited waited Total FAEs waited waited

Hernia repair North West London 790 71.7 70 830 127.0 150 Hospitals NHS Trust London SHA Treatment 15,955 70.5 62 16,739 80.5 67 1 Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 2 Time waited (days) Time waited (days) statistics from Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) are not the same as published Referral to Treatment (RTT) time waited statistics. HES provides counts and time waited for all patients between decision to admit and admission to hospital within a given period. Published RTT waiting statistics measure the time waited between referral and start of treatment. 3 Duration to departure The total amount of time spent in the accident and emergency A and E department. This calculated as the difference in time from arrival at A and E to the time when the patient is discharged from A and E care. This includes being admitted to hospital, died in the department, discharged with no follow up or discharged—referred to another specialist department. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre.

HIV Infection Hospitals: Admissions

Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for when his Department’s updated HIV strategy will be Health how many (a) discharges and (b) emergency published. [133803] readmissions within 28 days of discharge for those aged over 75 there were, in line with Hospital Episode Dr Poulter: HIV will be covered in the sexual health Statistics measurement guidelines, by primary care policy document which will set out the framework for trust, in 2011-12. [133629] improving all aspects of sexual health including HIV in England. We plan to publish the document as soon as Anna Soubry: Information on the number of emergency possible. readmissions within 28 days of discharge for 2011-12 is 749W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 750W not yet available. Information on the standardised rate Since the service was launched in March 2012, 16 global of emergency readmissions by primary care trust (the pharmaceutical companies have been granted CPRD number of emergency readmissions divided by the number data licences, over 100 research studies have been submitted of discharges, standardised for changes in case mix) is and 623 researchers have registered on the CPRD website. available for 2010-11 and earlier years from the website We will build on this early platform to provide an of the Health and Social Care Information Centre at: invaluable resource for the research community. https://indicators.ic.nhs.uk/webview/ Clinical data and linked data, in a research-usable, anonymised format, is made available via the CPRD to Injuries: Fireworks a wide range of researchers for use in approved research projects. These research projects meet the needs of Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for medicine/device regulators and as well the needs of Health (1) if he will estimate the cost of firework- commercial companies required under regulations to related injuries to the NHS in the last 12 months; undertake specific research studies. Discussions between [133860] CPRD and researchers, regulators and commercial (2) how many people were admitted to hospital for companies are conducted on a regular basis to ensure firework-related injuries in England in the last the opportunity that United Kingdom data can play in 12 months. [133861] medicine/device safety and improvement in public health is maximised. The anonymised data is published against Dr Poulter: The Department does not collect the cost a specific independently approved protocol written by to the national health service of treating firework-related researchers who are under legal contract to CPRD for injuries. There were 164 finished admission episodes of access to the required dataset for each research study people admitted to hospital with an external cause code protocol. of W39—Discharge of Firework—in 2011-121. This The CPRD is also developing specific data/research figure is not a count of all admissions for firework-related tools to help the understanding of the use of medicines injuries, only those with this specific external cause in pregnancy and in children, as well as in the immediate recorded. period after launch of a new medicine. These tools are 1 Note: A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in response to the requirements of regulators such as inpatient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. the European Medicines Agency and the MHRA. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode To complement the work of the CPRD, the Health finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC) launched its new “Data Linkage Service” on 17 September 2012, Source: in line with commitments set out in the “Strategy for Hospital Episode Statistics, Health and Social Care Information UK Life Sciences”. The data linkage service adds significant Centre value to individual sets of data by combining and Medicine: Research matching them at an anonymised individual record level in a secure environment. From April 2013 the Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for service will begin to offer anonymised extracts of linked Health (1) what steps he plans to take to increase the data on a routine (i.e. monthly) basis. The volume of availability of clinical data for research. [134170] extracts available will grow as the datasets within the HSCIC increase. HSCIC is working with the CPRD (2) what discussions he has had with the European and the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry Medicines Agency and the Medicines and Healthcare to identify priority areas for linkage. Products Regulatory Agency on whether clinical data should be published for the purposes of research. Sir David Nicholson will lead on delivering the national health service vision for genomics, starting with a process [134171] to ensure that from April 2014 contracts are in place for Dr Poulter: The Government launched the Clinical whole genome sequences for NHS patients. Access Practice Research Datalink (CPRD) in March 2012. As arrangements will be considered as part of this process. agreed in the “Strategy for UK Life Sciences”, the To ensure public confidence in matters of confidentiality CPRD is the result of a £60 million investment by the and access, this work will be monitored by the chief National Institute for Health Research and the Medicines medical officer for England. Access would only be to and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) anonymised and aggregated data to carry out research and will provide access to data that supports clinical likely to benefit the health of UK citizens. The NHS trials and population observational studies on an will act as custodians of this data, ensuring that doctors unprecedented scale. have the information they need and researchers can carry out health research while privacy of the patients is The CPRD operates across England, connecting patient ensured. information from general practitioners and hospitals to other records, such as disease registries, and holds the Meningitis: Vaccination resultant information in anonymised form to protect patients privacy. The combined datasets can be used to Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Health answer medical research questions, and the results shared what the timeframe is for the introduction of the MenB via peer reviewed publications. Future projects include vaccination. [133722] the addition of air pollution data, social care records and potential for working with UK Biobank. The CPRD Dr Poulter: There are currently no authorised vaccines also aims to link with similar systems that cover populations available to protect against meningococcal B. However, in Scotland and Wales. Governance approval is sought a meningococcal B vaccine (Bexero) has been recommended for all new data linkages. recently by the European Medicines Agency for market 751W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 752W authorisation. In anticipation of the availability of a patient groups or conditions, such as cancer and meningococcal B vaccine, the Joint Committee on cardiovascular disease. Called strategic clinical networks, Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI—the independent from 1 April 2013, these organisations will build on the expert committee that provides advice to Government success of network activity, which, over the last 10 years, on immunisation) is evaluating possible meningococcal has led to significant improvements in the delivery of B vaccination strategies. As part of this assessment, patient care. Funding allocated for clinical networks in JCVI is considering evidence on the epidemiology and 2013-14 is £42 million. carriage of different meningococcal serogroup B strains, These networks will exist for up to five years and will the costs of treating meningococcal serogroup B disease be managed by 12 locally based support teams. All and the costs of treating the long-term conditions that primary care trusts have developed comprehensive legacy result from this disease, as well as the quality of life of documents and network activities are included in these. affected individuals. In particular, it will be the role of the 12 associate JCVI’s evaluation is expected to be completed during directors who will lead the network support teams to 2013. ensure that the transition is well managed at a local The Department will consider the advice of JCVI level. The NHS CB expects that the associate directors once received and depending on the advice, the possible posts and network manager posts will be recruited to introduction of a meningococcal B vaccination programme shortly, and it is likely that many of the successful in conjunction with the NHS Commissioning Board applicants will be individuals already engaged in clinical and Public Health England. network activity. We have been advised that that there will be some continuity between North East Cancer NHS: Per Capita Costs network and the new network support team.

Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for Nutrition Health what the net expenditure per head by the NHS was in England in each of the last five years. [134391] Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether his Department will continue with the Dr Poulter: The following table shows total net NHS Supermeals campaign in 2013; and how much will be expenditure and NHS expenditure per head for England spent on any forthcoming campaigns to promote 2006-07 to 2010-11. Data for 2011-12 are not yet available. healthy eating, including the budget for promotion, advertising, social media and securing public figures to Net NHS Expenditure 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 be part of it. [134456] Total Expenditure (£ 76,926 83,335 90,035 97,272 99,249 million) Dr Poulter: Last year’s Supermeals campaign was Expenditure per head (£) 1,515 1,631 1,749 1,877 1,900 part of the ongoing Change4Life programme which Source: encourages people to HM Treasury Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2012 (Tables 9.11 and 9.15). “eat well, move more, live longer”. North of England Cancer Network Building on the success of Supermeals the Department will be launching a new healthy eating campaign in January 2013. Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what funding his Department has The planned budget (excluding VAT) for January’s provided to the North of England Cancer Network in campaign is as follows: each of the last four financial years; [133642] Media (including Television, Radio and Press, Paid Search and Online Display Advertising): £1,975,000 (2) how many members of staff have been employed by the North of England Cancer Network in each of Social Media: £10,000 the last four financial years; [133749] No public figures are being paid to promote the (3) if he will meet hon. Members to discuss the steps campaign. his Department intends to take to safeguard the The planned budget is provisional as the campaign is services provided by the (a) North of England Cancer being finalised. Network and (b) North of England Cardiovascular Network. [133750] Obstetrics: Greater London

Dr Poulter: Information concerning the funding received Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health by the North East Cancer Network in last four years how many vacancies there were for (a) doctors and (b) and its staffing levels during that time is not held nurses specialising in obstetrics in each NHS trust centrally. Funding to support cancer networks is mainly providing maternity services in the London Strategic provided through what is called the Strategic Health Health Authority area (i) in total and (ii) by NHS trust Authority (SHA) bundle. However, it is for each SHA in March (A) 2010 and (B) 2011; and if he will make a to determine how the total amount they receive in the statement. [133668] SHA bundle is allocated to specific services, such as cancer networks, taking into account the needs of local Dr Poulter: The information is not available in the populations. Staffing levels for cancer networks are a format requested. The following table shows vacancy matter for local national health service organisations. rates and numbers for consultants and midwives in the The NHS Commissioning Board (NHS CB) Authority obstetrics and gynaecology speciality in the London has set out its plans to establish a small number of Strategic Health Authority (SHA) area as at 31 March national networks to improve health services for specific 2010. 753W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 754W

The NHS and GP vacancy collections and publications the Department of Health-led Fundamental Review of have been suspended since 2011 pending the outcome of Data Returns.

Total and three month vacancy rates and numbers for all consultants in the obstetrics and gynaecology specialty in London Strategic Health Authority Obstetrics and gynaecology Three month Staff in post Vacancy rate Vacancy vacancy rate Three month (full-time Staff in post (%) (No.) (%) vacancy (No.) equivalents) (headcount)

England 2.2 36 0.5 9 1,599 1,670

London Q36 2.2 8 0.5 2 345 373 Barking and 5C2—0—000 Dagenham Primary Care Trust (PCT) Barking, Havering and RF4 0.0 0 0.0 0 18 18 Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust Barnet and Chase RVL 8.5 1 0.0 0 11 12 Farm Hospitals NHS Trust BarnetPCT5A9*0*000 Barts and The London RNJ 0.0 0 0.0 0 18 18 NHS Trust BexleyCareTrustTAK—0—000 Brent Teaching PCT 5K5 — 0 —000 BromleyPCT5A7—0—000 Camden PCT 5K7 *0*045 Chelsea and RQM 0.0 0 0.0 0 20 23 Westminster Hospital NHS Foundation Trust City and Hackney 5C3—0—000 Teaching PCT CroydonPCT5K9—0—000 Ealing Hospital NHS RC3*0*066 Trust EalingPCT5HX—0—000 EnfieldPCT5C1*1*100 Epsom and St Helier RVR 0.0 0 0.0 0 10 11 University Hospitals NHS Trust Great Ormond Street RP4—0—000 Hospital For Children NHS Trust Greenwich Teaching 5A8—0—000 PCT Guy’s and St Thomas’ RJ1 0.0 0 0.0 0 22 22 NHS Foundation Trust Hammersmith and 5H1—0—000 Fulham PCT Haringey Teaching 5C9—0—000 PCT HarrowPCT5K6—0—000 HaveringPCT5A4—0—000 The Hillingdon RAS*1*177 Hospital NHS Trust Hillingdon PCT 5AT — 0 —000 Homerton University RQX 9.5 1 * 0 10 10 Hospital NHS Foundation Trust Hounslow PCT 5HY — 0 —000 Imperial College RYJ 0.0 0 0.0 0 34 41 Healthcare NHS Trust Islington PCT 5K8 — 0 —000 Kensington and 5LA—0—000 Chelsea PCT King’s College RJZ 0.0 0 0.0 0 21 23 Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 755W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 756W

Total and three month vacancy rates and numbers for all consultants in the obstetrics and gynaecology specialty in London Strategic Health Authority

Obstetrics and gynaecology

Three month Staff in post Vacancy rate Vacancy vacancy rate Three month (full-time Staff in post (%) (No.) (%) vacancy (No.) equivalents) (headcount)

Kingston Hospital RAX 0.0 0 0.0 0 11 11 NHS Trust

KingstonPCT5A5—0—000

Lambeth PCT 5LD — 0 —000

The Lewisham RJ2*0*077 Hospital NHS Trust

LewishamPCT5LF—0—000

London Q36 — 0 —000

Mayday Healthcare RJ6*0*077 NHS Trust

Moorfields Eye RP6—0—000 Hospital NHS Foundation Trust

NewhamPCT5C5*0*011

Newham University RNH 0.0 0 0.0 0 12 12 Hospital NHS Trust

North Middlesex RAP*2*077 University Hospital NHS Trust

North West London RV8 0.0 0 0.0 0 15 16 Hospitals NHS Trust

RedbridgePCT5NA—0—000

Richmond and 5M6—0—000 Twickenham PCT

Royal Brompton and RT3—0—000 Harefield NHS Foundation Trust

Royal Free Hampstead RAL 0.0 0 0.0 0 14 16 NHS Trust

The Royal Marsden RPY*0*044 NHS Foundation Trust

Royal National RAN—0—000 Orthopaedic Hospital NHS Trust

South London RYQ 8.9 2 0.0 0 20 19 Healthcare NHS Trust

Southwark PCT 5LE — 0 —000

St George’s Healthcare RJ7 0.0 0 0.0 0 14 15 NHS Trust

Sutton and Merton 5M7—0—000 PCT

Tower Hamlets PCT 5C4 *0*011

University College RRV 0.0 0 0.0 0 26 29 London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust

Wandsworth PCT 5LG — 0 —000

West London Mental RKL—0—000 Health NHS Trust

West Middlesex RFW*0*078 University Hospital NHS Trust

WestminsterPCT5LC—0—000

Whipps Cross RGC*0*088 University Hospital NHS Trust 757W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 758W

Total and three month vacancy rates and numbers for all consultants in the obstetrics and gynaecology specialty in London Strategic Health Authority Obstetrics and gynaecology Three month Staff in post Vacancy rate Vacancy vacancy rate Three month (full-time Staff in post (%) (No.) (%) vacancy (No.) equivalents) (headcount)

The Whittington RKE 0.0 0 0.0 0 14 16 Hospital NHS Trust ‘*’ = Figures where staff in post and number of vacancies are less than 10. ‘—’ = Figures where staff in post and vacancies are both nil. Notes: 1. SHA figures are based on trusts and do not necessarily reflect the geographical provision of healthcare. 2. A vacancy is defined as one which employers are actively trying to fill as at 31 March. 3. Total vacancy rates are total vacancies expressed as a percentage of total vacancies plus staff in post from the previous September medical and dental workforce census (full-time equivalent). 4. Three month vacancies are vacancies as at 31 March 2010 which trusts are actively trying to fill which had lasted for three months or more (full-time equivalents). 5. Three month vacancy rates are three month vacancies expressed as a percentage of three month vacancies plus staff in post from the previous September medical and dental workforce census (full-time equivalent). 6. Vacancy and staff in post numbers are rounded to the nearest whole number. 7. Percentages are calculated on unrounded figures and are then rounded to one decimal place. 8. Data Quality—The NHS Information Centre for health and social care seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies. Source: The Health and Social Care Information Centre Vacancies Survey March 2010

Official Cars Date

Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for Minister of State for Health (Mr Norman 12 December 2012 Health which Ministers in his Department have been Lamb) allocated Government cars; and what the last dates Parliamentary Under-Secretary Secretary 12 December 2012 of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter) were on which such cars were used by each Minister for Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 6 December 2012 (a) individual and (b) pool car use. [133798] Health (The Earl Howe) Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 6 December 2012 Dr Poulter: The Department has one allocated Health (Anna Soubry) Government car which is used by the entire ministerial team. As at close of business on the 12 December 2012 Surgery: Greater London the car was last used by each Minister on the following dates: Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Date how many finished admission episodes there were and what the (a) mean and (b) median time waited was in Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy 12 December 2012 days for (i) hip replacement, (ii) hysterectomy and (iii) Hunt) cataract removal procedures at (A) North West Minister of State for Health (Mr Norman 12 December 2012 Lamb) London Hospitals NHS Trust and (B) all London Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 30 November 2012 hospitals in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if he will Health (Dr Daniel Poulter) make a statement. [133671] Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 4 December 2012 Health (The Earl Howe) Dr Poulter: The number of finished admission episodes Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 10 December 2012 (FAEs) and mean and median time waited for hip Health (Anna Soubry) replacement, hysterectomy and cataract removal procedures As at close of business on the 12 December 2012 during 2010-11 and 2011-12 for North West London Ministers last used the Government Car Service pool Hospitals NHS Trust and London Strategic Health car service on the following dates: Authority is shown in the following table.

Number of finished admission episodes (FAEs)1 and mean and median time waited2 (days) for North West London Hospitals NHS Trust and for London Strategic Health Authority of Treatment for (i) hip replacement, (ii) hysterectomy and (Hi) cataract removal procedures3 for 2010-11 and 2011-12

Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector

2010-11 2011-12

Mean time Median time Mean time Median time Procedure Provider Total FAEs waited waited Total FAEs waited waited

Hip replacement North West London 390 95.6 88 299 116.9 111 Hospitals NHS Trust

London SHA 9,067 89.1 83 9,377 94.3 86 Treatment

Hysterectomy North West London 183 83.2 80 210 92.7 86 Hospitals NHS Trust

London SHA 4,536 65.4 54 4,563 68.8 52 Treatment

Cataract removal North West London 870 39.9 41 792 65.9 66 Hospitals NHS Trust 759W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 760W

Number of finished admission episodes (FAEs)1 and mean and median time waited2 (days) for North West London Hospitals NHS Trust and for London Strategic Health Authority of Treatment for (i) hip replacement, (ii) hysterectomy and (Hi) cataract removal procedures3 for 2010-11 and 2011-12 Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector 2010-11 2011-12 Mean time Median time Mean time Median time Procedure Provider Total FAEs waited waited Total FAEs waited waited

London SHA 47,230 57.4 49 48,449 66.8 62 Treatment 1 Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 2 Time waited (days) Time waited (days) statistics from Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) are not the same as published Referral to Treatment (RTT) time waited statistics. HES provides counts and time waited for all patients between decision to admit and admission to hospital within a given period. Published RTT waiting statistics measure the time waited between referral and start of treatment. 3 Duration to departure The total amount of time spent in the Accident and Emergency department. This calculated as the difference in time from arrival at A&E to the time when the patient is discharged from A&E care. This includes being admitted to hospital, died in the department, discharged with no follow up or discharged—referred to another specialist department. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dr Poulter: The number of finished admission episodes how many finished admissions episodes there were and (FAEs) and mean and median time waited for what the (a) mean and (b) median time waited was in cholecystectomy procedures during 2010-11 and 2011-12 days for cholecystectomy procedures in (i) 2010-11 and for North West London Hospitals NHS Trust and (ii) 2011-12 at (A) North West London Hospitals NHS London Strategic Health Authority is shown in the Trust and (B) all other London hospitals; and if he will following table. make a statement. [133672]

Number of finished admission episodes (FAEs)1 and the mean and median time waited2 (days) for North West London Hospitals NHS Trust and London Strategic Health Authority (SHA) of treatment for cholecystectomy procedures3 for 2010-11 and 2011-12 Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector 2010-11 2011-12 Mean time Median time Mean time Median time Procedure Provider Total FAEs waited waited Total FAEs waited waited

Cholecystectomy North West London 327 79.8 77 368 111.6 132 Hospitals NHS Trust London SHA 6,484 74.5 64 7,367 81.5 68 Treatment 1 Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 2 Time waited (days) Time waited (days) statistics from Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) are not the same as published Referral to Treatment (RTT) time waited statistics. HES provides counts and time waited for all patients between decision to admit and admission to hospital within a given period. Published RTT waiting statistics measure the time waited between referral and start of treatment. 3 Duration to departure The total amount of time spent in the Accident and Emergency (A&E) department. This calculated as the difference in time from arrival at A&E to the time when the patient is discharged from A&E care. This includes being admitted to hospital, died in the department, discharged with no follow up or discharged—referred to another specialist department. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Visual Impairment: Devon It should be noted that these figures only include those people admitted to hospital for the above conditions. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for It should also be noted that since the same patient may Health what the average age was of people diagnosed be treated more than once in the year, their age will be with (a) diabetic retinopathy, (b) cataracts and (c) counted more than once in the calculation of mean age. age-related macular degeneration in (i) Plymouth and No ICD-10 coding exists specifically for age related (ii) Devon in 2011. [134376] macular degeneration—only ‘degeneration of macula and posterior pole’. Dr Poulter: The Health and Social Care Information Centre has provided the mean age for finished consultant The following table shows mean age (in years) for episodes (FCEs) with a primary or secondary diagnosis FCEs1 with a named primary or secondary diagnosis2 of diabetic retinopathy, cataracts, and age-related macular of diabetic retinopathy3, cataracts4 and age-related macular degeneration for Plymouth Teaching Primary Care Trust degeneration5 for Plymouth Teaching PCT and Devon (PCT) and Devon PCT of residence for 2011-12. PCT of residence6, for 2011-12.

Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector 5QQ: Devon PCT 5F1: Plymouth Teaching PCT

Diabetic retinopathy 69 65 Cataracts 77 76 761W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 762W

Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector 5QQ: Devon PCT 5F1: Plymouth Teaching PCT

Macular degeneration 82 81 1 Finished Consultant Episode (FCE) A finished consultant episode (FCE) is a continuous period of admitted patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FCEs are counted against the year in which they end. Figures do not represent the number of different patients, as a person may have more than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital or in different stays in the same year. 2 Number of episodes in which the patient had a (named) primary or secondary diagnosis The number of episodes where this diagnosis was recorded in any of the 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) primary and secondary diagnosis fields in a Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) record. Each episode is only counted once, even if the diagnosis is recorded in more than one diagnosis field of the record. 3 Diabetic Retinopathy CD-10 codes used to identify diabetic retinopathy. Each of the following codes must be immediately followed by H36.0 (H36.0 A Diabetic retinopathy): E10.3 D Insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus with ophthalmic complications E11.3 D Non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus with ophthalmic complications E12.3 D Malnutrition-related diabetes mellitus with ophthalmic complications E13.3 D Other specified diabetes mellitus with ophthalmic complications E14.3 D Unspecified diabetes mellitus with ophthalmic complications 4 Cataracts ICD-10 codes used to identify cataracts: H25 Senile cataract H26 Other cataract H28.0A Diabetic cataract (must be preceded by one of the following codes E10.3, E11.3, E12.3, E13.3 or E14.3 in order to be included). In order to be included, the following two codes should only appear in a secondary diagnosis position: H28.1A Cataract in other endocrine, nutritional and metabolic diseases H28.2A Cataract in other diseases classified elsewhere Q12.0 Congenital cataract 5 Macular Degeneration It is not possible to identify age-related macular degeneration using HES data. The ICD-10 code used to identify macular degeneration is: H35.3 Degeneration of macula and posterior pole 6 PCT of residence The strategic health authority (SHA) or PCT containing the patient’s normal home address. This does not necessarily reflect where the patient was treated as they may have travelled to another SHA/PCT for treatment. A change in methodology in 2011-12 resulted in an increase in the number of records where the PCT or SHA of residence was unknown. From 2006-07 to 2010-11 the current PCT and SHA of residence fields were populated from the recorded patient postcode. In order to improve data completeness, if the postcode was unknown the PCT, SHA and country of residence were populated from the PCT/SHA value supplied by the provider. From April 2011-12 onwards if the patient postcodeis unknown the PCT, SHA and country of residence are listed as unknown. Data quality: HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and PCTs in England and from some independent sector organisations for activity commissionedby the English NHS. Health and Social Care Information Centre liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. Source: Hospital Episodes Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

JUSTICE Family Courts Rehabilitation of Offenders 23. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what progress he is making in promoting greater 21. Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for transparency in the family courts. [133889] Justice what assessment he has made of the potential role of charities and voluntary organisations in the Mrs Grant: While a great deal more information on rehabilitation of offenders. [133887] the operation of the family courts is now available through published data, we accept that there is a need Jeremy Wright: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for greater openness. We are currently considering how has announced reforms aimed at improving the way best to take forward options for releasing more information that rehabilitation services are delivered to provide better in certain types of family proceedings. outcomes and increased value for money. We will be announcing detailed proposals shortly. Following this Prisoners: Drug Addiction announcement we will engage with key stakeholders across all sectors, including the voluntary and community sector, to help further develop our plans for reform. Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what steps he is taking to prevent drug Hate Crime addiction among prisoners. [133886]

22. Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State Jeremy Wright: The Government is committed to for Justice what steps he is taking to tackle hate crime stopping drugs entering prisons and to getting offenders through the justice system. [133888] off drugs. Fewer prisoners are testing positive for drugs than any time since 1996, but there is more to do, so we Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice hosts the are working closely with the Department of Health and Government’s Hate Crime programme, which brings all other service providers to create integrated, recovery Departments together with criminal justice agencies orientated and outcome focused services. and key partners. It is advised by a standing Independent Advisory Group and ensures that a co-ordinated approach Human Trafficking is taken to reducing the harm caused by hate crime. Our intentions are set out in “Challenge it, Report it, Stop it: Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government’s Plan to Tackle Hate Crime” published Justice how many victims of trafficking referred to the in March 2012. Trafficking Victim Support Scheme operated by the 763W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 764W

Salvation Army in the last 12 months failed to receive a not to attend the 2013 Commonwealth Heads of conclusive grounds decision; and if he will make a Government Meeting in Colombo unless certain statement. [134089] benchmarks on human rights and accountability are met; and if he will make a statement. [133467] Mrs Grant: Information produced by the UK Human Trafficking Centre indicates that there were 17 negative Mr Swire: Decisions on Canadian representation at Conclusive Grounds decisions in the period October the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting 2011 to October 2012 on victims who have been referred (CHOGM) are a matter for the Canadian Government. to the Government-funded support service for adult We are liaising closely with Canada ahead of CHOGM victims of human trafficking in England and Wales in Colombo in 2013. The UK looks to Sri Lanka, as administered by The Salvation Army. with any other CHOGM host, to demonstrate its commitment to upholding the Commonwealth values of good governance and respect for human rights ahead FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE of CHOGM. China Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) whether he has on attending the 2013 Commonwealth Heads of any plans to make representations to the new Government Meeting in Sri Lanka; and if he will make leadership of the Chinese Communist Party regarding a statement. [133468] the treatment of the ethnic Uyghur population in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region; [133464] Mr Swire: It is too early to confirm UK attendance at (2) if he will make representations to his counterpart the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in China on the ongoing harassment of the family of (CHOGM) in Colombo in 2013. Ahead of the meeting, exiled Uyghur rights activist Ms Rebiya Kadeer, we will look to Sri Lanka, as with any other CHOGM including the imprisonment of Ablikim and Alim host, to demonstrate its commitment to upholding the Kadeer, who have been detained since 2006; [133465] Commonwealth values of good governance and respect (3) if he will make representations to the government for human rights. of China on the repression of religion in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region prior to, during and after EU Law Ramadan this year. [133471]

Mr Swire: We are concerned about the treatment of Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the Uyghur community in the Xinjiang Uyghur and Commonwealth Affairs which EU directives his Autonomous Region, particularly in relation to cultural Department transposed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to and religious freedoms. We will continue to make date; which EU directives his Department expects to representations to the Chinese Government, and plan transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and on doing so during the next UK-China Human Rights what estimate he has made of the cost of each such Dialogue, which is due to take place in spring 2013. directive to the (A) public purse and (B) private sector. The agenda for the last UK-China Human Rights [133681] Dialogue included the situation in Xinjiang, ethnic minority rights, freedom of religion, as well as the Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office rights of detainees and a number of individual cases— has not transposed any directives. including those of Ablikim and Alim Kadeer. Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will hold and Commonwealth Affairs which regulations his discussions with his counterpart in China on providing Department introduced as a result of EU legislation in reparation and medical assistance to the victims of (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which regulations his nuclear tests at Lop Nor in the Xinjiang Uyghur Department expects to implement as a result of EU Autonomous Region. [133466] legislation in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he has made of the cost of each such Mr Swire: We are encouraged that in October this regulation to the (A) public purse and (B) private year, the Chinese Government announced plans to spend sector. [133682] 6 million yuan (approximately £600,000) to clean up the former nuclear testing site at Lop Nur. We still have Mr Lidington: Regulations are a specific type of concerns around the long-term health effects of the statutory instrument. These are rarely sponsored by the tests on the local populace. Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO). The most Our embassy in Beijing regularly raises issues of usual type of statutory instrument sponsored by the concern with the Chinese Government, including access FCO is an order in Council. to health care. We welcome recent increases in health In 2011 the FCO adopted the following orders as a care funding and sector reforms announced by the result of EU legislation: Chinese Government. S.I. 2011/742 The European Union (Definition of Treaties) Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (Stabilisation and Association Agreement) (Republic of Serbia) Order 2011 Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for S.I. 2011/743 The European Union (Definition of Treaties ) Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) (Republic of Indonesia); he has made of the Canadian Government’s decision and 765W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 766W

S.I. 2011/1043 The Treaty of Lisbon (Changes in Terminology) and it would have to be considered whether, on the facts Order 2011. of a particular case, any of these grounds applied. Since In 2012 the FCO has adopted the following regulations: these guidelines do not currently differentiate between S.I. 2012/358 The European Union (Definition of Treaties) products emanating from Israel or from the Occupied (Republic of Korea Framework agreement) Order 2012; Palestinian Territories, the FCO has not taken any steps S.I. 2012/797 The European Union (Definition of Treaties) in this regard. There is currently no specific proposal for (Second Agreement amending the Cotonou Agreement) order 2012; excluding goods, services and products from settlements and from EU and member state procurement. S.I. 2012/1809 The Treaty of Lisbon (Changes of Terminology The issue of settlement produce is actively discussed or Numbering) Order 2012. with our EU partners. EU Foreign Ministers, at the The FCO is aware of three other measures that will Foreign Affairs Council meeting on 14 May, agreed need to be given effect by secondary legislation in the that: new year relating to the EU/Mongolia Partnership and ″the EU and its member states reaffirm their commitment to Cooperation Agreement, The EU/Singapore Partnership fully and effectively implement existing EU legislation and the and Cooperation Agreement and the conferring of bilateral arrangements applicable to settlement products. The privileges and immunities on Athena (an EU body). Council underlines the importance of the work being carried out These measures are either technical in nature or relate together with the Commission in this regard.″ to international agreements. As set out in Explanatory This ongoing work includes measures to ensure that Memoranda for each of the regulations in 2011 and settlement produce does not enter the EU duty-free, 2012, costs to the public purse are negligible, and they under the EU-Israel Association Agreement, and steps are not estimated to incur significant costs to business. to ensure that EU-wide guidelines are issued to make sure that settlement products are not incorrectly labelled Gibraltar: Spain as Israeli produce, in violation of EU consumer protection regulations. There are, however, currently no plans for Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign EU or domestic legislation on this issue. and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has received on the movements of a Spanish warship in the Mediterranean Sea: Environment Protection territorial waters of Gibraltar; and what steps he is taking to address this issue. [134419] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Lidington: There were two incursions by a Spanish Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the naval vessel into British Gibraltar Territorial Waters Government plans to ratify the Barcelona Convention (BGTW) on 10 December. Radio warnings were issued for the Protection of the Mediterranean Sea against and the vessel departed BGTW. We have protested to Pollution. [133997] Spain via diplomatic channels at a very high level. The Royal Navy challenges Guardia Civil and other Mr Lidington: We have had initial discussions with Spanish State vessels whenever they make unlawful the Government of Gibraltar on this matter and are maritime incursions into BGTW. We back this up by considering how best to engage in various multilateral making formal diplomatic protests to the Spanish fora which concern the marine environment in the Government about all unlawful incursions. Our challenges Mediterranean. Ratifying the Barcelona Convention so and protests make clear that such incursions are an that it applies to Gibraltar is one option. unacceptable violation of British sovereignty. We are confident of UK sovereignty over BGTW Middle East under international law. We make our position clear to the Spanish Government whenever appropriate and we Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State will continue to uphold British sovereignty over the for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent waters. assessment he has made of the effect of the Israeli Israel blockade of Gaza on the humanitarian situation in that territory following the recent conflict with Israel. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for [133416] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to ensure that Israeli settlements are excluded Mr Hague: The Minister of State, Department for from all EU and UK agreements with Israel. [134163] International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr Duncan), visited Alistair Burt: Our position on Israeli settlements in Gaza on 11 December to assess the humanitarian situation the Occupied Palestinian Territories is clear: they are following the recent conflict. We continue to be concerned illegal under international law, an obstacle to peace and by the humanitarian impact of the Israeli restrictions make a two-state solution, with Jerusalem as a shared on Gaza. These restrictions do tremendous damage to capital, harder to achieve. We consistently urge the the economy and living standards of ordinary people in Israeli authorities to cease all settlement activity. Gaza without achieving Israel’s security objectives. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) follows We have repeatedly urged Israel to ease those restrictions. UK and EU guidelines when purchasing goods and We support the ongoing talks in Cairo, brokered by services from suppliers. The grounds for exclusion of a Egypt, which provide an important opportunity to resolve supplier under UK and EU procurement law are set out the fundamental problems of Gaza, including achieving in the Public Contracts Regulations 2006 (as amended), more open access to and from Gaza for people and which in turn reflect EU Directives on public procurement goods, and an end to the smuggling of weapons. 767W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 768W

Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign to the viability of the two-state solution. The UK and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he routinely condemns decisions taken to build settlement has made of the use of UK-manufactured weapons or units, calling for these decisions to be reversed, and for components by Israeli forces in Operation Pillar of Israel to cease all settlement activity. Defence in November 2012. [133423] Occupied Territories Alistair Burt: The UK maintains a rigorous and transparent arms export control system, whereby all applications are assessed on a case by case basis, against Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Consolidated EU and National Arms Export Licensing Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is Criteria. The Criteria make clear our commitment to taking to encourage the government of Israel to end assess the risk of exports being used for internal repression the construction of settlements. [133939] or to provoke or prolong armed conflicts or aggravate existing tensions or conflict in the country of final Alistair Burt: We continue to urge the Israeli authorities destination. We apply these Criteria rigorously, including to cease all settlement building, revoke previous with respect to Israel. We refuse licences for any arms announcements and to remove illegal outposts, as required exports to Israel which we assess would be inconsistent under international law and in fulfilment of Israel’s with the Criteria or other relevant commitments. obligations under the Roadmap. Throughout the recent conflict, the British embassy We have condemned the Israeli decision on 30 November in Tel Aviv monitored the security situation in and to build 3,000 new housing units in East Jerusalem and around Gaza closely and the effect of the use of Israeli the West Bank and to unfreeze planning in the area Defence Forces (IDF) weaponry. We called on the Israeli known as El. We have called on the Israeli Government authorities throughout the conflict to abide by their to reverse these decisions. I formally summoned the obligations under international humanitarian law and Israeli ambassador to the UK to the Foreign and to avoid civilian casualties. We also urged all sides to Commonwealth Office on 3 December, to underline the co-operate with Egyptian-led efforts to reach a ceasefire. depth of our concerns. We have no assessment to date of whether any UK Our position on Israeli settlements in the Occupied weapons or components were used during the recent Palestinian Territories is clear: they are illegal under conflict by the IDF. international law, an obstacle to peace and make a two-state solution, with Jerusalem as a shared capital, Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State harder to achieve. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department has requested the government of Israel to Palestinians take to effectively ease the terms of the current blockade on Gaza. [133515] Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Hague: We have repeatedly urged Israel to ease its for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent restrictions on Gaza, including during the recent visit to assessment he has made of the effect that the vote in the region by the Minister of State for International favour of recognising Palestine as a non-member Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for observer state at the UN has had on the prospects for Rutland and Melton (Mr Duncan). re-starting negotiations between Israel and the We have put forward suggestions for discussion in the Palestinians. [133415] ongoing talks in Cairo, brokered by Egypt, which provide an important opportunity to resolve the fundamental Mr Hague: I released the following statement on the problems of Gaza, including achieving more open access UK vote on the Palestinian resolution at the UN General to and from Gaza for people and goods, and an end to Assembly on 29 November setting out our position: the smuggling of weapons. We have also suggested “We respect the course of action chosen by President Abbas concrete steps that we urge Israel to take in the interim. and the result at the UN General Assembly tonight. These include, for example, further expanding the fishing We continue to believe that the prospects for a swift return to limit; significantly reducing the ‘no-go’ zone up to the negotiations on a two-state solution—the only way to create a border fence; allowing containerised imports to Gaza; Palestinian state on the ground—would be greater today if President and permitting goods from Gaza to access markets in Abbas had been able to give the assurances we suggested, and Israel and the west bank, as well as international markets. without which we were unable to vote in favour of the resolution. In particular, we called on President Abbas to set out a Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for willingness to return to negotiations without preconditions, and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment to signal that the Palestinians would not immediately seek action in the International Criminal Court, which would be likely to he has made of the extent of UK compliance with make a return to negotiations impossible. paragraph seven of UN Security Council Resolution We sought these assurances because they would help create the 465 (1980) on Israel and the occupied territories. strongest possible foundation for a return to talks, if combined [133630] with action by Israel and support from the international community, after a long and painful period for both parties in the absence of Alistair Burt: The UK complies with this resolution negotiations. This was the guiding principle behind our vote. calling upon states not to provide Israel with any assistance In the absence of these assurances from President Abbas, the to be used specifically in connection with settlements in UK abstained on the vote, in accordance with the approach I set the occupied territories. The UK, together with the out in the House of Commons this week. general international community, is clear on the status Nonetheless, we will redouble our efforts to restart the peace of settlements: they constitute a clear violation of process, and will continue our strong support for President Abbas, international law, are an obstacle to peace, and a threat the Palestinian Authority, and a two-state solution. 769W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 770W

I again urge Israel to avoid reacting in a way that undermines students by the military in Sri Lanka; what recent the peace process and a return to negotiations. We would not assessment he has made of the exercise of the right to support a reaction which sidelined President Abbas or risked freedom of expression in Sri Lanka; what steps he is collapse of the Palestinian Authority. taking to promote the demilitarisation of the Northern The coming year is now an even more important one for peace Province of Sri Lanka; and if he will discuss with his in the Middle East. We encourage the US, with the strong and active support of the UK, the EU and the international community, Sri Lankan counterpart the attacks on Jaffna to show decisive leadership and do all it can in the coming weeks university students by the military and the subsequent and months to drive the process forward. If progress on negotiations arrest and detention of students by the Sri Lankan is not made next year, then the two-state solution could become Terrorist Investigation Department. [133518] impossible to achieve.” Alistair Burt: We are aware of the recent attacks on Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State students at Jaffna university.Our high commission continues for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what to monitor any developments. We have raised concerns assessment he has made of the effect that the vote in about the continued detention of the four students with favour of Palestinian recognition at the UN will have the Sri Lankan authorities. on UK relations with the Palestinian Authority. We also regularly urge the Sri Lankan Government [133458] to improve the human rights situation for vulnerable groups, to investigate incidents that happen, and prosecute Mr Hague: The UK’s deep friendship with the those responsible. The UK, in conjunction with the EU Palestinians and strong support for the Palestinian Heads of Mission, released a statement on 5 December. Authority which has seen the UK provide £22.5 million This statement expressed our concern about recent over the last year in relation to state-building. Our vote developments in Sri Lanka surrounding the rule of law on the recent UN General Assembly (UNGA) resolution and individual freedoms. We continue to press the Sri was guided by a simple principle: how best to support a Lankan Government to ensure the protection of the return to genuine negotiations to secure a two-state fundamental rights of all citizens, including students. solution. The statement can be found at: However, we have been clear that we respect the http://eeas.europa.eu/delegations/sri_lanka/documents/ course of action chosen by President Abbas. The Deputy press_corner/20121205_en.pdf Prime Minister and I both spoke to him prior to the UK Membership of EU UNGA vote. No-one can doubt that President Abbas is a courageous man of peace. We believe that he is the John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for best interlocutor that Israel will have to bring about Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent peace. discussions he had with (a) trade associations and (b) Sri Lanka trades unions in the UK on UK membership of the EU. [133932] Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Mr Lidington: I regularly engage with a range of assessment he has made of the Government of Sri interested stakeholders as part of my ministerial duties. Lanka’s commitment to upholding Commonwealth Among others, I have recently met the Westminster values of (a) good governance, (b) human rights and Forum and TheCityUK. (c) the rule of law. [133469] In addition, the Government is engaging with a. wide range of interest groups, including the Trades Union Alistair Burt: As host of the Commonwealth Heads Congress and numerous trade and business associations, of Government Meeting in 2013, we look to Sri Lanka as part of the Balance of Competences review currently to demonstrate its commitment to upholding the under way. Commonwealth values of good governance and respect for human rights. We continue to have concerns about human rights in Sri Lanka, including the rule of law PRIME MINISTER and individual freedoms. The concerns of the UK and Ministers: Codes of Practice the wider international community on human rights are regularly relayed to the Government of Sri Lanka, most Mr Chope: To ask the Prime Minister whether he recently in the 1 November Universal Periodic Review plans to revise the Ministerial Code to reflect changes at the Human Rights Council. I will reiterate these in practice in respect of collective responsibility since concerns when I next visit Sri Lanka. May 2010. [134169] The UK, in conjunction with the European Union Heads of Mission, released a statement on 5 December. The Prime Minister: The Ministerial Code is normally This statement expressed our concern about recent revised and reissued after a general election. The current developments in Sri Lanka surrounding the rule of version was published in May 2010. Copies are available law and individual freedoms. We continue to press the in both Libraries of the House. Sri Lankan Government to ensure the protection of the independence of the judiciary and the fundamental rights of all citizens. The statement can be found at: INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT http://eeas.europa.eu/delegations/sri_lanka/documents/ Ascension Island press_corner/20121205_en.pdf Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much financial aid her Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Department has given to Ascension Island in each of reports he has received of attacks on Jaffna university the last three years. [134000] 771W Written Answers18 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 772W

Mr Duncan: DFID has given no direct bilateral aid to Justine Greening: The Prime Minister is co-chair of Ascension Island in the last three years. Ascension the High Level Panel on the post-2015 development along with other British overseas territories, however, agenda, which will submit independent recommendations has benefited from regional programmes to protect the to the UN Secretary-General in May 2013. Thereafter, environment and to help safeguard children. we anticipate that a wide UN-led process will culminate Developing Countries: Civil Wars in the agreement of post-2015 development goals in 2015. It is right for this process to be led by the UN and John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for developing countries. The Prime Minister has announced International Development what assessment she has that the G8 summit in 2013 will focus on tax, trade and made of the effectiveness of development aid from her transparency. Department to countries that have recently experienced Non-governmental Organisations a civil war. [133931] Mr Duncan: DFID programmes in conflict-affected Sir Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State states are having a real impact on the lives of the poor. for International Development what her policy is on For example: engaging with non-governmental organisations not In Afghanistan in 2010-11, DFID contributed to 4.7 million funded by her Department. [133851] children attending primary school and reached 1.4 million people with emergency food assistance. Mr Duncan: DFID engages with a range of non- In the Democratic Republic of Congo DFID reached 153,000 governmental organisations (NGOs) not supported through young children and pregnant women through nutrition programmes. funding schemes. In Nepal DFID supported the creation of 45,000 jobs and The main way DFID engages is through work with lifted 76,000 people out of poverty through our forestry work. BOND, the umbrella organisation for UK-based NGOs In Nigeria DFID supported 40 million people to vote in working in international development. BOND has over elections. 350 members, most of which are not funded by DFID. Results in all UK development programmes, including DFID also engages with a range of faith based, fragile and conflict-affected countries, are driven by diaspora and other organisations working both in the country context. For all DFID pages we measure the UK and overseas on international development through impact programmes have on reducing conflict, as well meetings, events and correspondence. as the achievement of development results in specific sectors. The UK has also endorsed the New Deal for Procurement Engagement in Fragile States (Busan, November 2011) and is committed to implementing its guidance on Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for working more effectively in fragile and conflict-affected International Development if she will list all contracts countries. signed by her Department with private companies for EU Law the provision of services previously provided by the public sector under her departmental responsibility Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for since May 2010; what the (a) length of the contract International Development which EU directives her and (b) financial penalties for opting out early are in Department transposed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to each case where possible within the cost constraints of date; which EU directives her Department expects to this question; and if she will make a statement. transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and [133919] what estimate she has made of the cost of each such directive to the (A) public purse and (B) private sector. Mr Duncan: DFID has not awarded any centrally let [133683] contracts since May 2010 that transferred the service provision and staff from the Department to a private Mr Duncan: The Department has not transposed any sector provider. EU directives in this period. Seas and Oceans: Biodiversity Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development which regulations her Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Department introduced as a result of EU legislation in International Development what assessment her (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which regulations her Department has made of the case for a sustainable Department expects to implement as a result of EU development goal on the conservation and sustainable legislation in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and use of marine biodiversity. [134103] what estimate she has made of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) public purse and (B) private Justine Greening: The Prime Minister believes that a sector. [133684] new global development framework should focus on the eradication of poverty. This will mean not only finishing Mr Duncan: The Department has not introduced any the job on the current millennium development goals such regulations in this period. (in areas such as health and education), but also helping G8 to put in place the building blocks of sustained prosperity. As part of this, a new framework will need to address Mr Lilley: To ask the Secretary of State for the critical challenge of managing natural resources International Development if she will ensure that the sustainably, fairly and effectively. The High Level Panel setting of post-millennium development goals will be on the post-2015 development agenda co-chaired by the included on the agenda for the G8 Summit in 2013. Prime Minister, will take a leadership role in considering [134393] the case for different goals.

3MC Ministerial Corrections18 DECEMBER 2012 Ministerial Corrections 4MC Ministerial Corrections FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Cyber-security Tuesday 18 December 2012 22. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress he has made on international aspects of the November TREASURY 2011 national cyber security strategy. [131121] HMRC Helplines [Official Report, 4 December 2012, Vol. 554, c. 752W.] The following is the answer given by the Exchequer Letter of correction from Mr Hague: Secretary to the Treasury, the hon. Member for South An error has been identified in the written answer West Hertfordshire (Mr Gauke), to a question from the given to the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) during Treasury Cairns) on 4 December 2012. Question Time on 26 June 2012. The full answer given was as follows: 14. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): What the Mr Hague: In January 2011, I launched a new initiative average waiting time for calls to Her Majesty’s Revenue on cyberspace at the London Conference. At the Budapest and Customs helplines was in (a) the last 12 months Conference in October the UK proposed a set of principles and (b) the previous 12 months. [113590] for effective cooperation between states, businesses and organisations. We have also launched a 2 million fund The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David offering states’ independent advice on ensuring accessible, Gauke): The average waiting time for a customer calling secure and reliable networks. Central to this effort is our HMRC’s helplines in the past 12 months was four commitment to an open internet, protecting freedom of minutes and 19 seconds. In the preceding 12 months, it expression online. was four minutes and 13 seconds. The correct answer should have been: [Official Report, 26 June 2012, Vol. 547, c. 153.] An error has been identified in the oral answer given Mr Hague: In November 2011, I launched a new to the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans). initiative on cyberspace at the London Conference. At The correct answer should have been: the Budapest Conference in October the UK proposed a set of principles for effective cooperation between The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David states, businesses and organisations. We have also launched Gauke): The average waiting time for a customer calling a £2 million fund offering states independent advice on HMRC’s helplines in the past 12 months was four ensuring accessible, secure and reliable networks. Central minutes and 56 seconds. In the preceding 12 months, it to this effort is our commitment to an open internet, was four minutes and 54 seconds. protecting freedom of expression online.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 18 December 2012

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 685 JUSTICE—continued Age of Criminal Responsibility...... 686 Probation Service...... 698 Community Sentences...... 699 Rehabilitation of Offenders...... 691 Courtroom Security ...... 696 Reoffending ...... 692 Criminal Justice System (Women)...... 696 Restorative Justice...... 699 Dangerous Driving ...... 687 Sentencing...... 694 Indeterminate Sentences ...... 685 Sentencing Guidelines...... 695 Legal Aid ...... 693 Topical Questions ...... 700 Prison Work...... 697 Whole-life Tariffs ...... 689 Probation Service...... 688 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 18 December 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 77WS HEALTH...... 94WS Collective Redundancies ...... 80WS Health Allocations 2013-14...... 94WS Enterprise Finance Guarantee Lending ...... 81WS Science and Technology Committee Inquiry ...... 94WS EU Competitiveness Council...... 77WS World Trade Organisation (Accession)...... 80WS JUSTICE...... 95WS Bill of Rights (Commission) ...... 95WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 83WS Mesothelioma Claims (Reform)...... 95WS Building Regulations...... 83WS Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Act 2012.... 96WS

DEFENCE...... 85WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 96WS Defence Reform Report ...... 85WS Government Equalities Office ...... 96WS Red Arrow Hawk XX179 (Service Inquiry)...... 86WS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 86WS TRANSPORT ...... 96WS Oil and Gas Regulatory Regime...... 86WS EU Transport Council ...... 96WS Roads Maintenance ...... 97WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 87WS TREASURY ...... 82WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council Agenda Credit Union (Maximum Interest Rate Cap) ...... 82WS (December) ...... 87WS Parliamentary Scrutiny of Government Agriculture and Fisheries Council (November)...... 88WS Expenditure ...... 82WS

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 90WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 98WS Foreign Affairs Council/General Affairs Council... 90WS Independent Living Support ...... 98WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 18 December 2012

Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 7P TREASURY ...... 8P “Opt-in” filter for internet service providers...... 7P Nippers Nursery, Leicester...... 8P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 18 December 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 715W ATTORNEY-GENERAL—continued Christmas...... 715W Serious Fraud Office ...... 719W Crime: Damage...... 716W Crimes of Violence...... 715W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 725W Dangerous Driving ...... 717W Business: Finance...... 725W Domestic Violence: Prosecutions ...... 717W Business: Loans...... 726W Drugs: Prosecutions ...... 717W Business: Recruitment...... 726W Personation...... 718W Business: Regulation ...... 727W Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Communications Data Bill (Draft)...... 727W Energy Company Obligation...... 719W Computers ...... 728W Energy: Cooperatives ...... 720W Cosmetics: EU Law...... 728W Fish: Conservation...... 720W Employee Ownership ...... 728W Fuel Oil: Prices...... 720W EU Law...... 730W Natural Gas: Exploration ...... 721W Exports: Iraq...... 730W Petroleum Act 1998...... 721W Foreign Students: Finance ...... 731W Renewables Obligation...... 722W Further Education ...... 731W Sellafield ...... 722W Government Departments: Disclosure of Sick Leave ...... 722W Information ...... 732W Warm Front Scheme ...... 723W Insolvency...... 733W Wind Power ...... 723W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 733W Wind Power: Wales ...... 725W Local Enterprise Partnerships: Greater London .... 734W Money Lenders...... 734W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL New Businesses ...... 734W AFFAIRS...... 691W Occupational Health...... 735W Animals: Exports ...... 691W Recruitment ...... 736W Ash Dieback Disease ...... 691W Regeneration: Essex ...... 737W Common Fisheries Policy ...... 691W Regional Growth Fund ...... 738W Dogs: Animal Breeding...... 692W Secondment ...... 739W Food: Prices ...... 692W

CABINET OFFICE...... 712W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 763W Emergency Planning College...... 712W China ...... 763W Israel...... 712W Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting ... 763W Negligence: Ministry of Defence...... 712W EU Law...... 764W Registration of Births, Deaths, Marriages and Gibraltar: Spain ...... 765W Civil Partnerships...... 712W Israel...... 765W Mediterranean Sea: Environment Protection ...... 766W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 692W Middle East ...... 766W Alarms ...... 692W Occupied Territories...... 768W Conditions of Employment...... 693W Palestinians ...... 768W EU Law...... 693W Sri Lanka ...... 769W Flood Control...... 694W UK Membership of EU...... 770W ICT ...... 694W Internet ...... 695W HEALTH...... 740W Pay...... 695W Accident and Emergency Departments: Greater Public Appointments ...... 695W London...... 740W Right to Buy Scheme ...... 696W Antibiotics: Research ...... 741W Blood ...... 741W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 683W Castlebeck...... 743W Broadband: Rural Areas ...... 683W Death: Weather ...... 743W Mobile Phones ...... 683W Epilepsy ...... 743W Tourism...... 683W EU Law...... 744W Tourism: North East ...... 683W Health Professions: Training ...... 747W UK Fashion and Textile Association...... 683W Heart Diseases: Children...... 748W Hernias: Greater London...... 748W DEFENCE...... 707W HIV Infection ...... 747W Afghanistan ...... 707W Hospitals: Admissions ...... 748W Air Force: Military Bases ...... 708W Injuries: Fireworks ...... 749W Armed Forces: Scotland...... 708W Medicine: Research ...... 749W Defence Equipment ...... 709W Meningitis: Vaccination ...... 750W Depleted Uranium ...... 709W NHS: Per Capita Costs ...... 751W Lost Property...... 710W North of England Cancer Network ...... 751W Military Alliances ...... 710W Nutrition...... 752W Military Bases...... 710W Obstetrics: Greater London ...... 752W NATO...... 711W Official Cars...... 757W Unmanned Underwater Vehicles...... 711W Surgery: Greater London ...... 758W Visual Impairment: Devon...... 759W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 713W Official Hospitality ...... 713W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 678W Databases: EU Countries...... 678W EDUCATION...... 713W Entry Clearances: Indian Subcontinent...... 678W Family Justice Review ...... 713W Entry Clearances: Iran ...... 678W Freedom of Information ...... 714W EU Law...... 679W Further Education: Admissions ...... 714W Human Trafficking ...... 680W Young People ...... 714W Internet ...... 680W Mousa Abu Maria ...... 681W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 719W Police: Stun Guns...... 681W Coal ...... 719W Students: Demonstrations...... 682W Electricity Generation...... 719W UK Border Agency ...... 682W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT—continued TRANSPORT—continued UK Border Agency: Correspondence...... 682W Transport: East of England ...... 675W West Coast Railway Line: Franchises...... 676W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 770W Ascension Island...... 770W TREASURY ...... 684W Developing Countries: Civil Wars...... 771W Charities: Bank Services...... 684W EU Law...... 771W Child Benefit...... 684W G8...... 771W Dairy Farming: Government Assistance ...... 685W Non-governmental Organisations ...... 772W Ford Motor Company ...... 685W Procurement...... 772W PAYE...... 686W Seas and Oceans: Biodiversity...... 772W Revenue and Customs: Washington, Tyne and Wear ...... 686W JUSTICE...... 761W Senior Civil Servants...... 687W Family Courts ...... 762W Surveys ...... 687W Hate Crime ...... 761W Taxation: Football ...... 687W Human Trafficking ...... 762W Working Tax Credit ...... 687W Prisoners: Drug Addiction ...... 762W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 689W Rehabilitation of Offenders...... 761W WALES...... 690W Pneumonia...... 690W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 689W EU Law...... 689W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 696W Atos Healthcare ...... 696W PRIME MINISTER ...... 770W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 698W Ministers: Codes of Practice ...... 770W Housing Benefit ...... 699W Housing Benefit: Edinburgh ...... 699W SCOTLAND...... 689W Inflammatory Bowel Disease ...... 700W EU Law...... 689W Jobcentre Plus ...... 700W Official Hospitality ...... 702W TRANSPORT ...... 671W Personal Independence Payment...... 702W British Transport Police ...... 671W Police: Pensions...... 703W Bus Services: Halton ...... 671W Social Security Benefits: Scotland ...... 703W EU Law...... 672W Surveys ...... 703W Great Western Railway Line...... 673W Telephone Services...... 703W Immigration...... 673W Unemployment ...... 704W Official Cars...... 674W Universal Credit...... 704W Railways: Franchises ...... 674W Work Capability Assessment...... 704W Railways: Norwich...... 674W Work Programme...... 707W Roads...... 674W Work Programme: Greater Manchester ...... 707W Roads: Snow and Ice...... 675W Work Programme: Kilmarnock...... 707W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 18 December 2012

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 4MC TREASURY ...... 3MC Cyber-security...... 4MC HMRC Helplines...... 3MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 18 December 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 685] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice

Welfare Cash Card [Col. 710] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Alec Shelbrooke)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Justice and Security Bill [Lords] [Col. 713] Motion for Second Reading—(Mr Kenneth Clarke)—on a Division, agreed to

Fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived [Col. 806] Motion—(Mr Hoban)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 820]

High Carbon Investment [Col. 821] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Yorkshire (Tour de France) [Col. 165WH] Cornwall (Government Funding) [Col. 187WH] Welfare Reform (Disabled People and Carers) [Col. 196WH] Votes for 16 and 17-year-olds [Col. 222WH] Outsourcing of Public Services [Col. 230WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 77WS]

Petitions [Col. 7P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 671W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 3MC]