Interview No. 181

University of Texas at El Paso ScholarWorks@UTEP

Combined Interviews Institute of Oral History

7-1975

Interview no. 181

S. L. A. Marshall

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Recommended Citation Interview with S. L. A. Marshall by Richard Estrada, 1975, "Interview no. 181," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.

This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Institute of Oral History at ScholarWorks@UTEP. It has been accepted for inclusion in Combined Interviews by an authorized administrator of ScholarWorks@UTEP. For more information, please contact [email protected]. UNIVERSITYOFTEXAS AT EL PASO

INSTITUTEOF ORALHISTORY

INTERVIEI'IEE: Briq. Gen.S. 1.3. Marshall (lq0Q-J924

INTERVI EI,IER: RichardEstrada PROJECT: .|9. DATEOF IIITERVIEIJ: July 5, 7, 9, .ll. and 1975 TERI'{SOF USE: Unrestricted

TAPENO.: 181 TRANSCRIPTIIO.: l8t

TRAIISCRIBER: Irma Herndndezand RhgndaHartman .|975. DATETRANSCRIBED: Julv. Auoustand November.

BIOGRAPHICALSYNOPSIS OF INTERVIEI{EE: Military historian.

SUilll"lARY0F II,ITERVIEt^l: B'iography;encounters with PanchoVilla; FelipeAngeles and Jose Vascon- celos; Albert BaconFall; PershingExpedition; Columbus Raid; Ciudad Juarezin the teensand 1920's; effect of the railroad on El Paso;Zack LamarCobb; Zack White; prominent men in El Pasoin l9l5; sentirnentin El Pasotoward the MexicanRevolution; Pascual 0rozco; orientals and blacksin El Pasoduring the teens; crossingthe internationalbridge; Emil HolmdahltSam Dreben; General Pershing; prejudice against Mexicans; the El PasoHerald Post vs. the El PasoTimes; friendliness of El Paso; Chris Pl-Fox;-TFurffi-to El pasoaffir-forta War I; newspaperwork; Ku Klux Klan; the Depression;Copper baseball league; re-enlisting as a private in the NationalGuard; humor columnist; origin of nickname"Slam"; RevindicationRevolutjon; Prohjb'ition; cultural advantagesof El Paso; Lawson-Jacksonfight; Tiger Flowers-GorillaJones fight; useof marijuana;

51/2 hours. continues l4l pages next page. prostitution jn the 1920's;work wjth the Detroit News;World War II military broadcastcolumn; trips to Mexico-aid'cond'itionsthere; SherwoodAnderson; Ulises Irigoyen;L. M. Lawson;the UnitedNations; El Paso-CiudadJuarez relations; Cedillo; oi1 expropriations; JosephusDaniels; Charles Lindberg; Francisco Muj'ica; Spanish Civil trJar;Ernest Hemingway. BI CENTENNIAL

F. GeneralMarshall, what is the origin of your name: Marshall?

Haveyou ever lookedit up?

M: It's, I think, Norman."Marshall" comes from the sameroot as

"constable"and so on. A marshall,in feudal times, wasthe head of the infantry in a lord's household,just as the constablewas the headof the cavalry. You'll find the name,inciaentattv,in everylanguage; it's in Chinese,in Japanes€,in Portuguese,

in Spanish,in Italian. It's a persistentname over the 91obe. E: That's very interesting. To whatsocial class did your parents belong? Couldyou tell mesomethinq about your parents? I couldn't say that they belongedto any social class. Mymother, as far as pedigreewas concerned, came from an old Americanfamily.

Theywere Mayflower people, the original GamelialBeeman. She was a memberof the DARand these various other organizations. tr. So her ancestorsactually cameover on the Mayflower?

M: That's right. Andpractically everyBeeman in the UnitedStates is related to me. Mymother's family waswell awareof the'ir ancestry. My father vvasan Englishman,born in Eng'land.He cameto this countryat the age of sixteen. He nevertalked aboutmy family in Enqland,so I knewnothing about them. I knowI hadan Unc'le Sam over there. Dadwas an Americanfrom the wordgo. That was one reasonthat he neverwent'into family affairs. Hewas a very strongman physically, and the best mindthat I ever ran into. Both my brother and I qot our vocabularyfrom my father, not from the schoolsystem, because I had verv litile inqtfsh in school. He wasthe best-spokenman I ever knew. I didn't get to knowmy

British relatives until I wentover there in Worldlrlar I. MyUncle Sambrought up the questionif my father hadever talked aboutthe

fami1y. I told him, "No." So he said, "I'II give you a run down on it." I hada lot of relatives in Englandat that time. He wasthe onewho told methat my grandmother,my dad's mother,was from the l,ledgewoodfamily; I th'ink shewas the nieee of Darwin's wife. I hadn't knownthat until that time. E: CharlesDarwin?

M: Yes. Andthat's aboutit. Thefamily--our family--was not at any time a family of means. I wasnot awarewe werewhat you would

call a poor fam'ilytoday. But oddlyenough we traveledall over the UnitedStates from the time I wasa baby.

E: Andyou wereborn in Catskill, NewYork? M: Catskill, NewYork. E: in I 900?

M: In 1900,and the recordwould make a researcherbelieve that we

lived there until mybrother was born eioht years later because he wasalso born in Catskill, NewYork. But I wasthere briefly for only a few weeks. Thenwe movedto NewHampshire, then to Maine, then to Baltimore,then to SouthCarolina, then to Colorado,and from there to California andthen to El Paso. E: Well, whatwas the natureof your father's businessto... M: Well, jt wasthis... Hewas an expert--probablythe brightestmind in the businessin clay mach'inery,and the nnkingof bricks and tile. He becamean expert for the AmericanClay Mach'ineryCompany, 3

whichsold practically a1l the blay machineryin the UnitedStates

at that time. Wheneverthey wouldsell the machineryto a new

plant they wouldusual'ly get a mortqaqeon it, and then the com-

panywou'ld start losing moneyand they'd sendDad there to straighten

it out. By the time he wouldget it in the black, they wereready for him to moveon to someother place. tr. Did the entire family movewith your father every time?

M: Usuallywe'd move a few weeksor monthsbehind him. Theonly time that I movedout aheadof the family with him is whenwe camefrom California to El Paso. l^lewere here six monthsahead of the rest . of the family. This kind of thing fs supposedto be unstabilizing to a chjld. It hadjust the other effect 0n me. I think that was

the big advantageI got out of myyouth becauseI had a chance

for adventureon my own. And that started at age five whenvve were

living in SouthCarolina in a small towncalled Killrian, iust outside of Columbia,and I got in the habit of roamingthe fields andthe woodspretty muchon my ownor with a boy companion. I can remem-

ber at the ageof six cominqacross a Civil l,rlarcanon ball in the

woodsdown there. This little pa1and I built a fjre andthrew

the canonball in to see if it wouldexplode. 0f courseit didn't explode;it wasa roundshot. I use that as an illustration of what set meon the coursethat I followed. Fromthat time on I think I lived a morecarefree life than mostchildren did. Wemoved back to Catskill andwe were there onceagain briefly. I wasstill jn the habit of goinqout on myown. Then,when we moved to Boulder, Colorado--thiswas at the ageof eiqht. Welived there from the time I waseiqht till the time I wastwelve. In thoseyears I got in the habit of mountainclimbinq and hunting gamewith a rifle. I say "big game"--Imean wildcats, andporcupine and so on--in the mountains. Gamewas abundant at that time.

E: Soyou've always 1ed a moreor less adventurouslife?

M: That's ri ght. E: Couldyou tell mein whatyear did you cometo El Paso? M: Wel1,I shouldfirst te11you aboutCalifornia. E: All right, sir. Goriqht ahead. M: Wewere there anotherthree years whenwe went to Niles, California, wherethere wasa b'ig brick p1ant. That wasthe westernbranch of WesternEssanay Company which was turning out Westernmotion pic-

tures. Thefirst Westernmotion pictures werethe "BroncoBilly"

picturesand the "snakeville"comedies that weremade by the film 'industryanywhere. This wasbefore Hollywoodbecame Hollywood.

I washired as a juvenile whenI wasin the eighth gradesimply

becauseI passeda better screentest than any other boy in the ejghth qrade. Theywere looking for anotherjuvenile. Andso I .l9.l2, beganworking as a motionpicrture actor in andcontinued it un-

til we cameto El Paso. I think that wasone reasonthat my father movedfrom California andcame here. Hewas afraid that the life at the studioswould ruin me. Whereas,if we'd stayedthere I mighthave become governor of California. I don't doubtit. Whatyear did you cometo El Pasothen? .|9.|5. Early .I9.l5. Early Doyou havean recollections about... Verydefinite ones. Couldyou tell meabout them? Yes, the International Brick Companywas located downnext to the

boundary,riqht next to what is nowthe Chamizalzone. 5

Thel6th Infantry wasat CampCotton. Thatwas'its basecamp and that is in whatis nowthe Chamizalzone. Thatwas about two hundredyards fromthe brick p1ant. SinceDad was here alone, he hadqotten acquainted with the l6th Infantry andhe waseating his mealsat the messof F Company,l6th Infantry. This wasmy first contactwith U.S. soldiers. So I dinedevery day at the mess. So at the aqeof fourteenI wasbecoming well acquaintedwith soldierinq. I waspretty matureby that time. I hadmy fu11 growth. I was, I guessa little bit cockyand self confident. I becameaccustomed to being aroundthe military and I rememberthe peoplein that

Companyvery we11. I wasnot interestedin soldiering. I had neverthought of myselfas a mifitary person. I hadnever played with toy soldiers or anythingof that kind. But beingwith the .l9.|6, uniformbecamea natural thing to me. In as a civiliano I was playingright fjeld on the Fort Bliss baseballteam--still with no idea of ever becominqa soldier. But I rememberthat within the first weekof hitt'ing E1 Pasoand meeting the Army,I also went to Jufrez on ny ownat fourteenoto explore that. TelI us abouti t. We11,the th'ird experiencewas a badone. I wasat the BlackCat

fGatoNegro] in Juirez--whichwas a cafdwith a small gambling establishment--atthe corner wherethe street car turns, and right next to the Biq Kid's establishment.It wasowned bv Villa. I had ordereda soft drink becauseI hadnever had anything alcoholic in mylife. I wasalso orderingdinner. Villa camein with Roberto Fierro, I think his namewas. Rodolfo. M: RodolfoFiemo. Theygot into a discussionabout whether Villa couldknock a combout of a dancehallgirl's headwith his pistol

without sightjnq ito holdinqit like that. Hefired andshot her

throughthe brain. Theylauqhed and he paid off the bet. It wastwenty five dollars... I got the hell out of there. 'ly E: Youactual witnessed that? M: Yes. It wasmy first experiencewith violent death. E: Did peopletell you that this wasFrancisco Villa? Hadyou seen hi s picture?

M: I recognizedhim when he camein. I didn't knowanything about

Fierro. But I got on the samestreet car with NormanWalker, the war correspondent,who also bailed out at that moment.That's when

I met him, on the street car. He told mewho the principals were andwhat it wasall about. Theywere talking in Spanishand I

didn't knowSpanish.

E: So it wasVilla that did that ki'l1ing? M: Yes. E: Tell me,what do you recall aboutPancho Villa, physica'lly?Can you rememberwhat he lookedlike whenyou sawhim? M: Yes. Themain thing I rememberabout him is an aura of greasiness. He wasa great sweater.He alwaysseemed to have, at least under those few occasionswhen I knewhim, a very jovial manner. I met himonce again through Tom Led. TomLea did somelega'l work for him. E: The formermayor of El Paso? M: The formermayor of El Paso. So I formally met him while I was still a kid. Tell us aboutthat secondmeeting. Whatwere your impressions

of Villa?

M: I don't haveany impressionsfrom that secondmeeting except that

in a conversationwith Leahe gaveLea his personaldagger for some reason--I can't rememberthe reason. Andsubsequently Lea gave it to me. It wasa Shefjeldpearl handledknife. Leagave it to mebecause he wasa guncollector and in someEl Pasoruins I found an old Derringerthat he very muchwanted. I gavehim the Derringer and he gaveme the knife in return.

E: That's very interesting. Did TomLea ever talk to you aboutVilla at any length? Aboutthe kind of personhe wasor any dealingshe mayhave had with him?

M: No,.not extensively. Nothingthat I recall. As a matterof fact,

I learnedfar morefrom Emil Holmdahland 0scar Caballerowho were

agentsof hfs. 0scarwas a purchasingagent and we discussed him

at great length. Thelast time I sawFierro wasin 1938. He wasthe manthat took meout to Palomasto seeCedillo. But I wouldnot go into the conversationsfor the simplereason that my memoryabout that is hazy. I neverwrote anythingimportant about PanchoVilla. So, this wasjust'id1e conversation,do you follow me? Yes,sir.

I kept no notes. Tell mesomething, what were your first impressionsof Mexicans or MexicanAmericans when you cameto the Southwest?What do you recall aboutthem? Whatkind of jobs did you see themworking at?

Myfather's force at the brick plant wasall Mexican. .|00% Mexican? B

.|00% M: exceptfor the foreman. He had workedBlacks, Portuguese,

Poles, Italians, He'dhad various experiences with different labor

groups,different ethnic groups,all over the UnitedStates. He

prefemedMexicans to any other. E: hlhywas that? M: Theyare morefaithful on the job. E: Whatelse do you recall aboutMexjcans? Do you ever recall seeing themin a social sett'ing?

Well, I've seenthem in many,many settings. See, 'in the years that followed,particularly after I wentto Detroitn I wouldspend

three monthsout of everyyear in Mexicoworking. I guessI'm one of the few Americansthat has goneto every state and every

territory in Mexicoincluding Quintana Roo at a time whenpractically no onewent to QuintanaRoo. But I've beenall over the country. So I got to see themunder many, many conditions. I knewmany of the revolutionaryleaders quite well. For instance,Portes Gil was a friend of mine. You'll find in that collection at UTEPa book from PortesGil signedto meby PortesGi1.

E: I met him three yearsago here in Juarez. M: Is he still alive? E: Yes. M: To meit wasalways an enjoyableexperience. Theonly reasonI stoppedin l93B wasbecause in 1939the Warcame along. That turned my interest in an entirely different direction and I nevergot back to it.

E: But do you think that if the war hadnot comealong you wouldhave maintainedyour ties wjth Latin AmericaS'Your reporting on Latin America? 9 l"l: 0h, I don't think there's anyquestion about that. In I 923when

I wastwenty-two years of age" due to a conversationwith Arthur Lockhartwho at that time wasone of the Lockhartsthat ownedthe

Rjo GrandeOil Companyhere in El Paso...Hewas a rather wea]thy man...still alive by the wayand living in LongBeach. Hebrought up the point that a newspapermanshould be a generalist. He should be able to work in any field in the newspaper:soc'iety editor, sportseditor, city editor, write a column,etc.r etc., which I procededto do. But he madethe further point that in order to not be at the mercyof his employerhe shouldturn to certain

specialties. So I sat downand figured out whatspecialties I wouldfbllow. WhereasI'm a watercolorist.,a painter, and I was

a trained musician--Iused to be a singer in El Paso;I waswell

knownhere as a sinqer--andwhereas I'd beenan actor, I decided that for myfield of criticism I'd forget a1l of thosethings that

I had learned in youth becausethere wereso manypeople in the field andI'd becomea military critic. I'd learn aboutmilitary affairs frombeqinning to end. A'lthoughI'd beenan all-around athlete in schooland also playedpo1o, I wouldnot concentrateon any of the familiar sports. I wouldconcentrate on sports of the horse: polo, steeplechasing, and racing--not flat racing--steeple chasingand horse showing and become an expert in that field. In

foreign affairs I'd concentrateon Mexicoand the Central American Republicsbecause other foreign correspondentswere paying funda- mentalattention to Europeand Asia. I neverexpected that my affairs wouldcamy metowards Europe or Asja. I cont'inuedwith

that plan unt'i1 the Secondt,Jar came, never expecting that the t0

military studieswould pay off for me. I thoughtthat I wouldget

the big payoff in Latin Americanaffairs, and in po1o,especially

in horseshows. By the mid-1930sI wasa nationalwriter in both

of thosefields. In fact, myscrapbook on writing aboutthe horse is out there in the UTEPcollection. Someof mypieces in military criticism are there, but they werejust marginalpieces at that time. Doesthat explain it?

E: Yesosir, it certainly does. Goingback to your yearshere in El Pasojust beforeWorld War I: Tell mesomething about relations betweenAnglo Americans and MexicanAmericans in thosedays. Can you recalI anything?

M: In high schoo'l?

Yes.

M: Beautiful. I rememberthem very well for the reasonthat manyof

our schoolmateswere refugees from the Revolution. For instance,

one of myclassmates was Julius LaguetteTerrazas who was the grandsonof old manTerrazas.

Luis Teryazas, Sr.?

M: That's right. RamdnConcho was another one. He later went to Minesat the sametime I did. l4aldonadowas another. But at any rate, they wereour classmatesand our friends. Theyparticipated 'in sports up there. I wasthe managerand captain of the baseball teamand half of our teamwere Mex'icans. And I really think the great changein El Pasocame about because that generat'ionof individuals, getting that kind of a schoolingand relationships, finally cameto powerin El Paso. Theywere determined that this c'ity, at least if they could affect it, wouldtake a moresensible social attitude towardMexicans. 1t

E: Somost of the Spanishsurnamed individuals that you knewwere of

a higher social elementfn comparisonto mostMexican Americans on the border. Is that right?

M: Yes, that's a goodpoint. Mostof themhere couldn't afford to go to high school. Their parentscouldn't help them. E: trlhatpart of towndid these refugeeslive in?

M: Well, they 1ived, manyof them,north of SanAntonio Street. For example... E: Upnear SunsetHeights maybe? M: GoldenHill. E: GoldenHill?

M: Yesowe lived in GoldenHill andVasconcelos and FelipeAngeles lived within a coupleof blocksof whereI lived. Myfather knew both of themquite well.

E: Yourfather knewAngeles and Vasconselos well?

Yes. I knewthem. I met them. Tell meabout Felipe Angeles and ,losdVasconcelos.What do you recalI about them? Well, FelipeAngeles was one of the mostinformed soldiers I ever met. I don't knowwhether the reputationwas comect, but on the

border at the time he wasgiven credit for havingbeen one of the maindevelopers of the French75. He wasat Saumur.He wasa very soft spoken,moderate man. Vasconcelos,who was more of a scholar,

wasmuch the sametype as far as his outwardseeming was concerned.

Angeles,of course,was executed probably about three years after you met him. That's aboutright. 12

E: Doyou recall ever hearinghim talk...any conversationsthat he may

havehad that you werepresent at...anything you can recall abouthim?

Anythingfurther than whatyou've said?

M: No.

Just thoseinitial'impressions? M: That's right. Youmust understand, againo at that time I wasnot interestedin military affairs. Hetalked like a soldier andmost of his conversationshad to do with the fighting problemsin Mexico. E: Hadyou begunto understandany Spanishby this time? M: I struggledwith it. I foundthat my parentskidded me very much

about it becausemy efforts wereso bad, but I did mydamndest.

E: Did your father ever achieveany degreeof fluency? M: Nonennone. Hewas not a'linguist. Hehad no ability in that field at all.

Yousay you lived right nearGolden Hil1...

Yes, I lived on LaurelStreet. D'idyou ever, by any chance,meet Albert BaconFall? Yes. Couldyou tell us aboutthat? I hadone memorable meeting with him. Wewere playing football-- that is, just passinga football in front of his home. E: That b'igmansion up there?

M: Yes. I wasplaying with BobiHolman and a boy namedBosco Pomeroy wholater becamsequarterback of El PasoHigh School. Oneof us kickedthe ball and it landedin his roses. Heothe Senatornwas just comingout of the houseat that time. He grabbedthe foot' ball and started to comedown and tear us apart. I said to Holman, t3

"Youtackle himand he'll drop the ball and I'll get the ball and run with it." That's howwe got the ball back. E: Oneof you actua'l1ytackled him?

M: 0h yes. I think it wasPomeroy that tackledhjm. Heand Holman together. E: 0f courseoagain you werequite youngat this time, but wordhas it in historical circles, historiographicalcircles, that Albert Bacon Fall maintaineda very real economicinterest in whatwas hhppening in northernMexico. Hewas affiliated for instancewith... M: Hehad a very direct interest in the Greenadventure... E: Bil I Green. M: AroundCananea.

E: He wasthe attorney for that company,wasn't he? M: That's right. I think his interest in Mexicohad developed long

before that time. It developedeven when he wasa younglawyer.

E: Doyou th'ink it wasa sincere intellectual jnterest, perhapsfostered by 1iving on the border?

M: In the first place, Albert BaconFall hadan intellect. There's no questionabout that. I can't seehow anyone can cometo El Pasowithout developing an intellectual interest in Mexicoand in Mexicans.It's unavoidablefor any personwho has a mindand

becomesinterested in local affairs. E: Haveyou ever giventhought to Fall's interest iniMexico'tht'oulbout the rest of the revolutionaryyears? I realize you don't consider yourself an expert on the Revolution,but I wouldlike to havethe benefit of your reflections. 14

M: 0n the contrary, I'm not an expert but I knowthe Revolutionquite

well. I wasa studentof it right from the wordgo whenI camehere.

F. All the better. I'Jhatare your viewson Albert BaconFall's role,

for instance,speakinq out in the Senateagainst all the revolutionary activity on the border,etc.?

M: If.you wantme to be frank, I think that he wasinterested primarily in any field in whichFall couldmake money. E: Did you ever knowanything about his connectionwith Edward LawrenceDoheney?

M: No. I didn't knowabout that until the TeapotDome scandal came alonq.

E. 0f course, they had both beenfrjends since the days that Fal1 wasan attorney in Las Cruces. Theyhad met back in the l880s.

So here you are about sixteen years old on the borderand about

this time war cloudsare on the horizonin Europe. Couldyou tell

us whatyou did after...did you qo to high schoolin El Paso? r,4. Yes. I wentto high schoolboth at the old high schooland at the newhigth school. I started there in my sophomoreyear. ThenI movedto the schoolon the hill whenit opened. I said I hadno interest 'in soldiering, but whenthe PershinqPunjtive Expeditjon camealong I got a job drivinq an FDtruck at whichI wasnot very good. Thehead of the organizationwas Colonel Lewis. Incidentally, that "Colonel"is not a title--that washis first name. I got the job becausei knewhis boyswho were schoolmates of mine. About three weekslater they discoveredhow young I was, so I got kicked out of Mexico. I wasrunning frorn Columbus to ColoniaDublf,n.

E,. Soyou werea civilian workingwith the PershingExpedition. 'i M: That's ri qht. t4ostof the people were. Twoof my cl assmates, ncident- t5

ally, Cecil Boydand Bill McClure,were chief scoutsfor the

Expedition. Sothis lvasnot unusualfor an El Pasoan-Dick Lew'is,

whowas younqer than I wasand wasthe son of ColonelLewis, a'lso hada job driving a truck. Boydand McClure are not evenmen-

tioned in history but they hada far moreimportant position with Persh'inqthan did the Apachescouts, whoget a qreat deal of publicity, becausetheir fathers wereranchers in that territory and they knewthe territory very well.

F. Theyknew it jntjmatel.y. M: That's riqht.

F. Tell mesomething, General, with reqardto the feeling extant here on the borderat that time with reqardto the... Doyou remember

the SantaIsabel massacre?

M: Yes.

F. Whatwas the feeling of E1 Pasoans,especially Anglo Amer"ican El Pasoans,toward the Villistas after that massacre? 0h, terrific resentment.It did not expressitself in violence.

I didn't see violenceuntil the Columbusraid. Somethinqhappened in El Pasojust aboutthree or four daysbefore that raid that completelymisled us. Therewere about forty prisonersin the

jail--the jailer wasFrank Scottere, Sr. whoseson was a classmate of mine--whowere being deloused in the ia'il becausetyphus was epidemicin northernMexico at that time. Nineteenof these individualswere Villista soldiers whohad been caught trying to qet

up acrossthe border. Somebodystruck a matchand these peopleall wentup like torches. Thenwhen the raid hit, we in El Paso

thouqhtthat this wasa reprisal for whathad happened in the iail 16

Thenight after the raid I wentdowntown to SanAntonio Street

andthere weremobs of Anglos(as they are nowcalled) goingup

anddown San Antonio Street armedwith clubs andpisto'ls and so

on. Everytime that they wouldrun into a Mexjcanthey wouidbeat

him up andthrow him into an al1ey. It wasone of the mosthorrible scenesI've ever seen. tr. Did any of themever get killed? M: I don't recall that anybodywas killed. Theymay have been. The police weremaking no effort to interfere. tr. lllhowas rnayor of the city at this time? M: I can't remember.I think TomLea was still the mayorbut I'm

not sure.

F. I believethat's correct. Tell methe origins of this fburning] that took placeat the jail. Did you ever find out whodid that?

tllasit ever known?

M: Whostruck the match?

F. Yes.

It'l: No, I don't think so. I don't recall. If there is anythingon it,

you cou'ldfind it out by coinqthrough old newspaperfiles. The incident has escapedEl Pasomemory. You won't find any referenceto 'it in connectionwith the raid at all, whichhas surprisedme because

the eventitself shockedthis Communitv. Thedouble shock comingout of the ra'id had quite an impacton El Paso. E: So, El Pasoans,in general,saw a causeand effect betweenthat

[burninq]and the raid. M: That's right.

F. That's very interesting. I hadnever heard about that or read aboutit. t7

M: I knowI talked to the WesterrlersSociety here a counleof months agoand this wasnews to them. They'dnever heard of it.

F. General,tell mesomething with regardto the wayyour dad or

other businessmentreated Mexican American laborers. I'm not askingleading questions. i woulds"imply like to knowabout things like waclesor working;conditions for anybodythat they hired-- AnqloAmericans, too. Howmuch did peopleget paid in thesedays? Doyou recalI ?

M: I can recall ver.ywell becauseI also workedat the brick plant. E: D'idyou workalong side the Mexicansthere? M: Yes. I workedon the dry pressand worked on the pugmill and

finally set brick there althoughmy hand was so small for setting brick that it wasposit'ive torture. As to our pay, it was754 an hour.

750 an hour? Right.

I'Jasit hard work?

It's the hardestwork I ever did in mylife. Did you yourself...did you persona'llyqet a'longwith theselower class MexicanAmericans that you wereworkinq with? M: Whycertainly, whynot? If I hadn't beenable to get alongwjth Mexicansof any categoryI coulldn'thave worked all over l4exico without feelinq sometrepidation about myself.

E: That's very enlightening. Sohare .you are, lou wereworking and I take it you weregoinq to El PasoHigh School at this time? M: No. This wasbefore I wentto high school. I camedown here in early l915 anddidn't go to high schoo'limmediately. I worked

from the early part of that .yearuntil Septemberwhen school took up. 1B r. Yousay you went to CiudadJu rez a coup'leof timesand you... l\il . l't . Morethan a coupleof times. I wentover there as rapidly as I

could get any moneyto buckt chuck-a-luckgame with.

F. Did you take part in the Keno amesand al I that?

M: Yes, and I p'layedroulette so on, l^lewe were warnerli n those days that if you wonas muchas fi y dollars you'd better get immediately on the street car and headfo El Pasoor you'd likely bemugged. I^Jell,I nevercame within fif five dollars of it, so I didn't haveto worry aboutthat.

E: Throuqhoutthe I 930sand 40s udadJudrez gained the reputation

of beinga "sin city," a capi I of sin andvice. Hereon the ,|9.|5, border in about howwoul you describeit with respectto

that characterization?

M: l^lell,these are both "sin citi s." This wasthe toughestcommunity I ever knewwhen I movedinto t--terrifically so. E: It wastouqh? i4. Yes, sir. In everyway. In e ry vvayexcept the youngergeneration

wasextremely qentle--the peope in the high schoolo they werethe gentlestpeople I ever knew. he boys weremuch more mature than the boysthat I had knownin lifornia. I think beingon the borderdid that for them. Fou or five juicy murdersa day in

El Pasoshocked nobody. That s sort of par for the course.

E. Is that right?

M: That's right. It wasstill t wayin the 1920swhen I wasan

editor here. E: Andthis was'in a townof abou 50,000060,000 people? M: It wasaround 60,000. Around ,000and, of course,the red light district herewas as la andmuch more wide openthan the l9

Barbary Coast by a lonq wa.ys- on Utah Street and someof it

wason SantaFe Street. I al sawthat 'in great detail. There

wereabout five blocks of cri s on UtahStreet andnot well policed. As for medicalattention--ve rudimentary,no requirementsto

speakof. Gambling,while no w'ideopenr wds aoing on all the

time just as it wasin the 19 , particularly at the Knickerbocker Club. Judrez at that time, think, hadmore open gambling establish-

mentsthan any city in North rlca. tr. llowabout the "sin" aspectof t? Wasit anymore sinful? Wasthere anymore prostitution or vjce r se than in El Paso,at that time? M: No. I don't think there was re prostitution in Judrez. It wasn't as wel'lorganized as it wasin El Paso. Jutrezwas an extremely dirty city, unbelievab'ly d'irty

E: Tell us aboutit. M: The streets werealmost wholl unpaved.When a rain camealong it wasdifficult to naviqateove there, the mudwas so deep. If

it hadn't beenthat mostof th soil wassandy you couldn't havemoved on the road. El Paso...oneof the strangethings that startled meabout El Pasowhen I first amehere was, I had grownup with

horsesin Coloradoand then a in whenI waswith the EssanayCompany in California andwhen I cameere, I thought I wasgoing to run into a horsetown and I quick'lydis overedthat there were no horsemen in El Pasooutside of the few attlementhat wouldcome in here and a feWsociety snobswho rode u in what is nowthe KernPlace district. But there wasn'ta ivery stable whereyou cou'ldrent a riding horse. This wasrath r strange.

That's interesting. Did you e r travel to any other part of Texasdurinq theseparticular ars? ?0

M: You're talking about the teen$? E: Yes, sir.

M: Wel1,I traveledto Sierra Blancaand that's aboutit. I traveled

to Deming. E: The reasonI ask is that therq wasa very colorful bookthat came out in l916 called Tera: tLe tl|alvelgusby NevinWinter. In this bookMr. blinter happenedto mqntionthat at that t'imehe cons'idered El Pasoas n'themost cosmopolitan city in Texas"in so far as there weremany out-of-town vilsitors constantlycoming through here on the railroads. Doyo{ recall any of that?

M: 0h, I recall that very wel1. ilt wascosrnopolitan in its nature-- the nature of the population. That wasfor the reasonthat the

city wasthen the meccafor a1ll peopletroubled with pu'lmonary ailments,with tuberculosisori emphysemaor anything like that.

So they had spreadthroughout lthe culture developingelements of this society. So it had, I tfiink, a h'igherlevel of intellect in the populationthan you wouldfind anywhereelse. Thesepeople did wondersfor the c'ity. Theydid moreto bring'it up to modern

times than anyoneelse becausewe had lawyersand doctors and so

on whohad already established big reputationsin the Eastwho came out here for their health. Thatwas the moststartling thing about it. The great contrast betweenthe frontier pioneernature of half of the society andthe cultural interests of the people whowere newcomers. El Pasoans,for instance, in those days had no accentat all--they didn't affect an accent. WhenI cameback

here in the 1930sand aqain in the 40s I wasimpressed by howmany El Pasoanswhom I had knownwere affecting a Southwesterndrawl, includingmy rather famousnephew, Marshall hlillis. Theyhad ?1

gottenthis from television andfrom radio. It wasa caseof real life imitatinq art.

E: That's extremelyperceptive. That's a very goodcomment. You

talk about...youjust happenedto mentiona well-knownperson. I'd like to ask you abouta couplethat lived here in El Paso, a few well-knownpersons. Did you ever knowZack Lamar Cobb? M: Very we11 .

E: Tell meabout lvlr.Cobb. Hewas from Georgia,wasn't he? M: Yes. He camefrom the LamarCobb family. The general was a

famousCivil Warfigure. I also knewhis brother [Howe]11very well whowas the DeputySheriff here in El Paso. I had very strong

connectionswith him. Mylife pivotedon somethingthat happenedto

him and somethingthat he didrfor me. ZackLamar was a very small man,very slight. Hewas more birdllke than anythinge1se.

E: Birdlike?

M: Yes, I wasgoing to say terrierlike, but that's not true. Hewas

a kinetic, a very emotionalconversationalist and so on andhe possessedconsiderable intellect. Hewas a charmingcompanion to be with. tr. Theysay...as a matterof fact, it's knownthat he playeda major role in the Revolution,the MQxicanRevolution, in this generalarea,

becausehe wasvery anti-Villrlsta towardthe end of Villa's 91ory. .|915. This wasabout Doyou yi'ecal'lanything about that?

M: No. I can't recall his beinganti-Villista. Hedid, dueto dint of circumstance,play majorparts. But I wouldn'tsay it wasbecause he hadan anti-Villista attitude. It wasbecause of the job that he filled at the time. Youwill find, for instance,that 22

BarbaraTuchman's book on the Zimmermantelegram goes into a part

he playedin connection,as I dimly recall now,with the doings anddeath of PascualOrozco. E: Yes.

M: Youremember, who was shot as a supposedhorse th'ief, downin GreenRiver Canyonnot far from the LoveRanch. I don't remember exactly howCobb figured in that, but he is mentionedthere in several p'laces. Hewas not, let mesay, an outstandingfigure in E1 paso circles. His job madehim an importantfigure. But he wasa manwho got arounda great de41and becamea well-knownfigure in El Paso.

E: He is also mentionedin ClarerlceClendenen's TheUnited States and PanchoVilla which...haveyou readit, by the way?

M: No, I'd like to read it but I don't knowthat one.

E: Whatwere Zack Lamar Cobb's edonomic interests in this town?

Hewas a lawyerto start off vtith. Wherewere his investments? Doyou recall?

M: I can't tel 1 you.

F. Wherewas his house?

M: I don't rememberwhere his housewas and I don't rememberwhere

Howell Cobb,his brother, livejd thoughI knewHowell much better.

But I just don't recall detailis I ike that. E: AlI right.

M: I haveenough trouble rememberlingwhere I lived. E: Let mesay that your memoryoni the border...aboutthe borderat this time is superb. I hadno idearyou knewas muchas you do about theseevents. I'd like to aski you, do you recall anythingelse

aboutMr. Cobbor his family, [nythingat all? Dimly,any events 0r... ?3

M: No, nothingthat I recall welilthat wouldbe important.

E: Fair enough. Did you ever knowZack White? M: 0h yes.

E: Tell meabout Mr. White.

M: l,.lell,the story waswhen I wa$a youngsterhere that ZackWhite owned half of the townand Harvey owned the rest of it. It wassomewhat of an exaggeration,but Zackl.,lhite was a very, very strong person'in every respect. He knewwhat he wantedand he knewhow to get it. Hewas capable of taking on gt"eatresponsibilities and he never hesjtatedabout doing so. Helhad,I guess,as muchto do with the advanceof this city as any pdrsonthat you could namefrom that period .

E: Soyou wouldsay that definjtqly he wasone of the mostprominent menin El Pasoat that time?

M: Noquestion about it.

E: }tlho,in your recollection, werl'ethe other prominentmen in El Paso, .l9'|5, sdy, in 1916?

M: Well, TomLea was certa'inly sq. As far as Armyfigures wereconcerned, MickyMichaelis who commanded F company of the l6th Infantry was better knownthan JohnPershing who commanded at Ft. Bliss because M'ichaeliswas the first Armyoffjcer to come here andnot only mix with the civilian communjlybut play a leadingrole in the civil'ian community. He is hencea great figure from that time. I can't over- look Slater, H. D. Slater, beclausenot only did I workwith him, but fromany point of view i wouldsay that H. D. Slater is oneof the preeminentfigures in El Pasohistory; he camehere as a young intellect. Hehad been a sub-editoron the Litero. Digest. This 24

at the time

he started the El PasoHerald. Hewas a reformnut. He fought the

goodfight for reformand madie hjmself very unpopular.

E: A Southwesternmuckraker. h'laishe a muckrakerin the old...?

M: Not so muchthat. He was, ini the first place, a very goodnewspaper-

manin thoseyears. His iudginentabout what a papershould be I wouldsay wasahead of anythihgthat you'1.|find in El Pasotoday. Hebelieved in goodwriting. Hebelieved in absoluteintegrity on

the part of his staff. If a fnandidn't haveit, he wasshortly let out. Hewas in manyways a fprmidablecharacter. It wasalmost

imposs'iblefor anyoneto get Nloseto him. He lived a quite secluded life. I later got to knowhiipr to the point where,when famous

peoplewould come to this tow$nhe wouldtake me, for instance, to

supperwith Pavlovabecause she was an old friend of his and that

kind of thing. I don't knowlvhy he favoredme. A goodmany of the

famousvisitors to El PasoI $ot to meetthrough him. Goingback to .l9.|5, I woulddescribe him as oneof the preeminentfigures here.

I wouldsay that JudgeW. D. lflowewas one'of the outstandingfigures

at that time. E: Did you ever knowMr. SweeneyJ

M. 0h yes. I knewSweeney quitelwell.

E: Tell meabout Mr. Sweeney. 1 M: Well, he wasa guy... Hewasla rather sardonicfigure, andyet he had a great senseof humor--apof iltician fromhis toes right up to his crown,and somewhat ruthless. I could get a'longwith him, but he was a little hard to take. UnpleNsantis the wordfor him. Youprobably haverun into the nameof Joe Dunn. 25

F. Yes,yeS I have.

M: WelI , I knewJoe Dunnver.y 1. Hehad an office in the El Paso

Electric Buildingand he was upposedto be the political bossof

SouthEl Paso. Hewas accuse of herdingMexicanvoters and paying thema dolI ar a vote and so . hjithouta doubtJoe had no more scruplesthan MayorCurly in ston. Hewasone of the mostjovia'l menI ever met. I liked him ry much. E: Washe Irish?

M: Fromthe groundup. 0f cour , he wasnot a large man. Hewas short, roly-poly and rather redh Hehad a terrific senseof humor.

Youcould oppose him outright and he didn't treat you as an enemy, whereasSweeney did. If you re on the other side you were pretty hard for Sweeneyto take.

E: That's interesting. So he wa moreor less a political bossin SouthEl Paso?

M: Yes--I think the only figure hat wasso identified in El Paso's hi story.

Did you ever knowFrank and I e Alderete,Alderete?

M: 0h, very well. Frank"Keeko" Alderete wasa teammateof minein baseball. A very, very stocky and a very hard hi;tting outfiel der. Yes, I knewthem quite well. Whatare the questions? E: Well, of course,Mr. Alderete-both of themas a matter of fact-- their namesfigured prominent in El Pasonewspaper articles with regardto gunrunning. In a ition to that, in the Albert BaconFall

collection which has beenmic -filmed, there are severaldocuments

in which intelligence is b t to SenatorFall's attention in which referenceis madeto this qun ning activity by the Alderetes. 26

Whatdo you think? Doyou

M: I wouldn'tdoubt it.

Youwouldn't doubt it? M: I wouldn'tdoubt it. I coul 't proveit but gunrunning was rather commonalong the border then. Anythinglike that is nowregarded as

majorcrime. It wasn'tthou t of in thosedays in that way. [A gun runner was regardedas an ad turer, not a criminal.] It's very difficult to recreatethe cli te in El Pasoat that time.

E: WelI , you're doinga goodjob f it. M: I remembera center of revol u 'ionaryp'lanning and p'lotting wasthe

FisherHotel. It's still in e istence acrossfrom the Del Norte. That wasowned by the Viljoen rothers. Viljoen had beenone of the mostprominent Generals and bu ckers in the BoerWar. The people

wouldmeet there. Thefunny rt of it wasthat they did not court the privacy that's commonin affairs today. Reporterswould

drift in andout of the meetins. E: Theserevol utionary planning ssions?You're kidding. M: No, that's the wayit was. I idn't realizehow naTve it wasat the time.

I F. 0f coursethis wasGeneral Ben aminViljoen whowas with Maderoin lgll whenJua'rez was first ta

M: l,JelI , I wasn't even awareof E: Yes,he was. 0f course,a dsonor a nephewof Garibaldiwas

also there. He waspart of th ForeignLegion in that revolution.

M: l.lell, I rememberabout the Gar baldi grandsonbut they seemedto spreadaround. E: I understandwhat you mean. t meask you this... M: I just wantto insert onefur r point andthiit is in connectionwith 27

the supportof revolutionarybctivities in Mexicoin that time. HaymonKrupp was s certajnlycerta'in1y onp of thethe'important 'importantfigures in El FPaso. E: Hewas a businessmanhere.

M: That's right. Hehad a very flargebusiness right wherethe present Civic Centeris. E: l^lasit a clothing business? s that right?

M: It wasa clothing businessan other things also. Hewas a wholesaler.

But jn providinguniforms to Villistas and that kind of thing he 'lso wasnot only very active but very successful. That i s, he madea great deal of moneyout of it E: Howabout the el der Mr. Schwatz?

M: I don't think so, no. No, I on't think so. I knewAdolph Schwartz

and Mauriceand the boys very very we11 . I knewthem about as welI as I knewany family in E'l Pao. I don't knowany family that had

morerespect than they did. y werecertainly a greatly stabilizing

influencein this community.Incidentally, I'm havinglunbh with one of the nephewstomorrow, Irvi g Schwartz.They were...Maurjce especially was, I wouldsay, the outstaning sportsmanin El Paso. Hewould do moreto help peopleby wayof financial supportwho were interested in sportingactivity andhelp ng with kids andthat kind of thing. E: General,with regardto.. . Y mentionedthe Alderetes,or I did and you expoundedon them. Weta ked a little bit aboutthe fact that they mayhave engaged in gun nningand the fact that that wasper- hapsendemic along the border a lot of peopledid it. Canyou recall

ever thinking aboutthe fact hat the principles of the MexicanRevolu- tion. . .that the princip1 es havehad an effect on the thinking of the MexicanAmericans in El P so? Did you ever give that any thought? 28

M: Youhave to spell that out.

All right, sir. I realize I'm bqinga I ittle vague. WelI , let's say, hereyou havea bordercommunity. A very uniqueborder community. You

havea uniqueborder community whlich is facedall of a suddenwith the

first--well, at least Ciudad.luirlez is--is facedwith the first social revolutionof the twentiethcentury. ..whatturns out to be the first social revolution.

M: Right. Thereare very great hjstorical fbrces at workhere, whetheror not peopleknew it at that time.

M. I don't think the principals knewit for the mostpart. That's an i nterest'inq cornment.

M. Theyd'idn't really understandwhaf they weredriving at--I meanoutside of land division. Their conceptshardly wentbeyond that.

E: That's interesting. That's very linteresting. Now,do you think that there wasany supportamong the Mpxicanson this side of the border or the MexicanAmericans even? Shy,we're not just talking aboutthe ./ emiqrds,sdy, the MexicanAmericafrs--do you think they had any support

for the Revolutioneither moralor did they actively help it? Doyou recall ever hearinqanything about that?

M: I wasnot here at the time of theiMadero Revolution, when it started. By the time that I got here in'1915the turbulencein Mexicowas so

great that I felt that mostEl PaNoanshad just this viewof it: "If wecould just get rid of this we'dbe so muchhappier." Initia'lly, from whatwas told me, there is nq questionbut what the sympathyof the El Pasopublic waswith the M{deroRevolution. But I mayqo on

to say that I haveobserved over fhe courseof a lifetime that this 29

is almostinevitably the casein a free society. For examp'le,we

talked aboutthe De la HuertaRe Volution. At the time that that came

+ aiong there wasa great sent'imenu in favor of it here. This wases-

pecial'lytrue on the part of the press of the UnitedStates. The

presswhich is unthinkinqon sucl'l mattersis usually in favor of any suchmovement that comesa1ong. E: For its pressvalue.

M: That's right. I thoughtthat the attitude waspretty blind--that whatMexico neededwas stabilization andnot la newrevolution. Certainlythe fact of the revolutionbeing right next door hadhn impacton El Pasothat wasdifferent from that on any city in the UnitedStates becausewe werethe only large bordercity. j l,,lewere the only peoplethat were directly involvedin revolutionar! affairs. This makesa hell of a di fference. tr. Thankyou, General. This is the bnd of the first interview with GeneralMarshal I . 30

[2nd interviewsession, Ju]y 5, 1975f

E: GeneralMarshall, you werementioning some families, someprominent families that you hadknown in El Pasoback in the teens. Couldyou

tell mesomething about those fanlilies?

M: To those I numberedthe other day I wouldadd the RichardBurgess family and the Orndorff family arldthe Magoffinfamily becausethere werestill a lot of Magoffinshevte at that time. Threeof themwere schoolmatesof mine. I think thqsewere among the substantialfamilies that you wouldrefer to as pi'l'larfsof the community.They had a great social position andprominence, dhd wealth and also they wereminglers. Theydid not hold themselvesaparft. I wantedto addthat to the list of the other day. I also failed to mentionone of myfriends that

early wasVictor 0choa. I mentionhim for the reasonthat a qooddeal of the insight I got on revolutiqnaryMexico I got fromhim in person.

Hewas very directly connecteda4d interested in revolutionaryaffairs. I metOrozco through him very briefly. AndI wouldsay, incidentally, that the great overlookedman as lfar as story material is concerned

out on the Revolutionis Orozcoand not Villa. Muchhas beenwritten aboutVilla, yet Orozco'scareer from beginning to end is moreinterest-

ing andmore dramatic and nothjng has beendone on it. Thereis nothing jn the El PasoI ibrary and practically nothingin the Congressional

Library. I don't believethere is a fiqure in history that turned coat as often as he did. Hjs activities direcly concernednot only

Mexicobut the UnitedStates in manyrespects. So I wouldsuggest that if you ever want to embarkon studyingOrozco that's worth doing. I 31

I'm sure. General,you sayy0u actual'lymet 0rozco? Yes.

Couldyou tell us aboutthat meeting? I met him at the Elite Caf6. Whichwas located...

In Central El Paso. I think ibheGrant store is there now. That was a meetingplace for El Pasoansand revolutionaries. It wasa delightful center. Incidentally, the Eskimopie cameout of that shop. Theyhad

whatwas called a baseballthere--frozen ice creamwith a chocolate coating, a roundsphere. Theman who developed the Eskimopie sto'le his idea from this confectionhere in El Paso. FrankPickerel who ran the Elite lost out in thaftrespect but I believehe later made a fortune in oil.

It seemsthat Villa and Orozcpused to frequent ice creamparlors quite a bit.

M: 0h yes. I havea picture of 0rozcoat the Elite. I think Villa is in the samepicture. I don't rememberwhere I got the picture though.

Couldyou tell us moreabout the meetingbetween yourse'lf and Mr. 0rozco? Well, it wascarried on in Spanish. Orozco,you know...therewas a story aroundhere that he wasthe descendentof an Irishmanand that his namewas rea'lly Roscoe. He had reddishhair. He wasa very taciturn man. Wewere talking mainlyabout his conceptsof the Revolutionand

whathis responsibilitieswer'1e. I cannotrecall the conversation beyondthat. I wasnot a reporter in thosedays and I haveno recollection of conversationsat a time whenI wasnot interested as a newsgatherer.* .l9.l5. E: That's understandable.This musthave been in early .l9.|5. M: It was. I think it wasin the summerof .|9.l5. E: Thesummer of ownrecollection of the incjdent is vague. I wasreminded of the [*My .|966.1 meetingby LewisB. Rutherfordin 32

M: I don't rememberhow I happenedto meetVictor Ochoa. It wasquite

by accident.

E: 0f course,Orozco was killed aboutthe first part of Septemberof .l9.|5. Isn't that right?

M. I think it wasa little later than that. I lm not sure. E: Youmentioned Victor 0choa. WasMr. 0choafrom El Paso? M: Hewas from El Paso. I think it's hi s fami'lythat 0choaStreet is namedafter here. I He wasan old-timer here. Hewas about, I wouldsayo in his early 60sat that timeobut still a very actjve mindand a very congenialcompanlon.

F. Doyou know'if they were related to the famousOchoas from CiudadJu{rez?

This wouldbe the Inocente0choa fami1y. M: No, I dontt know. E: General,I'd like to mentionsome other namesfor you. If you don't recall themyou can be very curt with meand just sayno. LeePollard.

M: Thename clicks but nothinqelse does. J. E. Tolsend.

llo. l,.I.J. Millner. No. N. B. Braily. Neverheard the namebefore. A. W. Spalding.

No. l,llill'iamLowe. No. Verywell, sir. Foreveryone'sinformation, these were prominent socialists in the El Pasoarea durinq that time. 33

M. I didn't knowwe hadany prominentsocialists here,lexcept Bill Moran] E: It mayhave been a contradiction in termsthere. Wereyou ever aware

of any socialist or ll'.ll,llactivity in the El Pasoarea during your ear'ly yearson the border? M: IhlWactivity, absolutelynot. I knewnothing about that until the war

cameon and the trouble rose in Bisbee. The big "jefe" of the...Il^lhl HayuPod...

F. Big Bill Haywood.

M: He wasthere at the time that the llllWwas run out of Bjsbeeand put into whatamounted to a concentrationcamp by the sheriff. Did you ever hear the nameMary Harrisn "MotherJones"? No.

Doyou knowif l,llilliamHaywood ever madea trip to El Paso? I don't recall that he did. Doyou recall any strikes in the El Pasoarea? Perhapsat the Smelter? No, I led oneat the brick company. Youled a strjke at the brick company? Ye,s,I did'in a sense. Therewas a characterby the nameof Teddy McColtwho was a union figure here. Welater foundout that he was an escapee,I think, from IdahoPenitentiary. Hewas a unjonorganizer and I thouglrbthat the peoplefrom the brick companywere underpa'id.

Theodd part of this wasthat the brick companywas owned by the InternationalUnion of Bricklayers--Brick,Tile andTema-cotta Workers,

I think that wasthe title. Theplant wasnot organized. I ioined McColtin organizingand strjking againstmy own father. Andafter

weorqanized and had our little strike, he said, "l,,lhatare you going to do about it? Wecan't pay any moremoney and stay in the black, so that's the situation." Weused to go to.:.one of the techniques 34

of stikers in thosedays was to go downtownat the eveningdinner hour

and spreadaround and take up the seats, all the seats in the cafJs and order just a cup of coffee and sjt there for an hour. Therewasn't

anythingthat the proprietors could do about it. wewere not breaking the law. wewere trying to use their pressurein order to get public sympathyfor the strike. t^lell, that strike completelyfizzled out. That wasmy on'lyexperience in striking.

E: Doyou recall anymention or any propagandarelating to socialist activity in this area?

M: Noneat all. Thereason that I think I wouldhave been impressed with

it wasbecause my father cameto the UnitedStates as a youngsocialist, an Englishsocialist. Hefollowed socialism very c1ose1y.But he

grewcompletely disenchanted with it and becamea conservative.

E: Doyou recall any Blacksor 0rientals that mayhave lived in this area during the teens?

No, there werea very few Blacksin the community.Most of themworked as shoeshineboys in the barbershops. But they weresuch a minuscule groupthat they had no effect on the communitywhatsoever. E: Howabout Orientals? M: Very few of them.

E: Doyou recall whatjobs those few mayhave held? M: Laundriesand so on, menialwork.

E: GeneralMarshall, do you recall ever hearinganylhing relating to the use of drugsin El Pasoduring the teens?

Duringthe teens, ro. Duringthe 20s, yes--verymuch so. 35

E: Duringthe teensdid you ever hear about...

M: It could havebeen going on and I wouldhave known nothing about it.

Becauseoddly enough the...despite the ruggedness,the toughness,and

the meannessof the communityin those days, the peoplethat I associated with werenot drinkers, not drug users. Therewas nothing of that kind in the high school. I knewonly two boysthat drankbeer, for instance. Themales were extremely upright individuals--far moreso than those that I'd knownin California.

F. But you heardnothing through rumor at all?

M. No. AndI ran w'ith real'ly the toughestqang in the community,the Myrt'leAvenue gang.

Wasthat what they werecalled, the "Myrtle Avenuegang"?

M: TheMyrtle Avenuegang--in fact, severalof themlater went to the penitentiary.We had the winningnestball club in El Paso. l^Jewere

neverdefeated. But I recall very strong'lythat whbnwe wantedto celebrateafter a gamewe drank soda pop. Wedidn't think of drinking beer.

E: Did you ever, during the teens,meet any underworldfigures? M: Whatdo you meanby underworld? E: We11,I'll leave it opento y_ourinterpretation. lr,l: Well, it wouldbe pretty difficult to class'ifyanybody as "underworld" in El Pasoat that time. Didyou ever meetanyone that in any waywas associated with illegal activity in the area? Gee,that's a hardquestion to answer. AlI right.

I met peoplethat I knewwere in the gunrunning business. But I didn't get the goodson them,so I wouldnot speakof that. 36

E: Doyou recall any rumorsat al'l aboutcontraband or smuggfing?Do

you recall ever havingread anythinq about it?

M: No-

F. GeneralMarshall, in our last interviewyou madethe observationthat you usedto go to CiudadJuf,rez quite often. Couldyou tell me, what proceduredid one go throughat the bridge to visit and return from CiudadJuirez? M: Youhad no difficulty at all. E: You'djust walk over? M: Wewere just admittedon personalrecognizance, that's all.

E: Did you just walk over? Whenyou cameback did you haveto state your ci ti zenshi p?

M: l^lalk... N0... Yes,you hadto state your citizenship. I've never

seenany exceptionto that along this border. Oneof the strange experiencesI recall is goingover there on a motorcyclewfth a high schoolfriend of minenamed Crook Evans. Hewas later killed in an aircrash just beyondUTEP. We went to the Judrezracetrack. They

hadsome good horses runninq in thosedays, in the revolutionaryperiod-- Iron Maskand Old Rosebudthat wonthe KentuckyDerby and so on. We got out to the track andwe met a Villista captainthere. I forget the two horses, but he wantedto bet ten dollars on the horsehe was backingagainst ten dollars that wewere bettingo which was all the moneywe had. I^leput the moneyon a fence post. The race was run and wewon. He put his handon the ten dollars and stuffed it into his pocket. WhereuponEvans hauled off and sockedhim and knockedhim out. Wegot on the motorcycleand started for the SantaFe bridge. When we got there they had sent a messagethrough to the bridge and there 37

were two mozosstanding up there with a rope to stop us. Crookjust

decidedthat he wasgoing on and hit that rope to see whathappened.

Fortunatelythe rope didn't throw us; it draggedthe two mozosa'long

the bridge. I guessthey got splinters in their asses. Wekept on going and by the time we reachedthe Americanside the motorcyc'le wascompletely off balance. At that time wedid take a ditching our- selvesand I pickedup somesp'linters. E: Youhad some extraordinary times here in El Paso,didn't you? M: Well, I rememberthat rather vjvidly becauseI wasscared.

E: GeneralMarshall, do you reca11any Mexicanofficials ever being stationedon the Americanside of the bridge?

M: No, I don't.

E: Doyou recall whichbridge hadthe railroad goingover it? M: Therail road?

E: Yesosir. I can't tell you. The streetcar wentover the StantonStreet bridge andcame back by the SantaFe bridge. I think I've got thoseright. Did you ever meetor hear of JuanMedina, of CiudadJu{rez? Thename rings a bell, nothinge'lse. I don't knowwhether I ever met him- Theother day during our interviewyou mentionedone Emil Holmdahl.Is that ri ght? Emil Holmdahl,yes. Emil Holmdahl,could you tell memore about him?

Yes, he wasa very handsomeindividual. Hewas said to be Villa's agentin negotiationsmainly with the businesscommunity thoulh, as

I said,Oscar Caballerowas also active in that sphere.llolmdahl, I

wouldsay, wasa manof about45 at that time with silver-gray hair. 38

Hewas a very closedmouthed individual. He alwayswore a gray semj-

unifanm- He lookedlike a military figure with somekind of a Western hat- Hewas a very quiet man- Hewou'ld talk if you pressedhim. I

don't meanhe wasuncongenia'l but he wasjust a kjnd of a reserved

type, whereasOscar Caballero was just the other wayaround--he was jovial a very forthgiving, individual[and a great joker] E: "Holmdahl"sounds German. Is that correct? M: I think it is, but I can't swearas to his ancestry. E: Washe a friend of the 0rndorffs? M: Yes. E: Whatother El Pasofamilies of Germandescent or supposedGerman descent do you recalI ?

M: I drawa blank there,

E: Tell mesomething more about Mr. Caballero. Doyou knowwhere he was from ori g'ina1 1y?

M: No, I don't.

E: Doyou recall whathis particular job with the Villistas was? M: Purchasingagent. E: Purchasingagent, 0.K. Did you ever knowL|zaro de la Garza? M: No, I don't evenrecall the name.

E: General,Vou said that you usedto sing here in El Pasoduring your youth. Whatkinds of social functionswould you sing at? Doyou recall?

I sang,at that time, in the first Baptist choir. I've beentrained as a singerand I still hada pretty goodvoice at that time. I sangin light operettasat the high schooland so on. I didn't do muchpublic singingoutside of the churchchoir andthe high schoolactivities. I sangwith a high schoolquartet that mademany pub'lic appearances '|9.|7. in 39

Did you ever meetor hear of JuanS. Hart?

0h, yes. I heard.of him a great deal, but I hevermet him. Younever met him?

No. 41though he had great fameas a basebal1 player. Doyou recalI that? That wasbefore my time. Beforeyour time? Um'hum.

Did you ever visit Hart's M'ill? Yes. l^lhatkinds of activities wouldqo on out there? I can't remember.

Youcan't remember?

No.

I'd like to ask you somethingabout the Villa raid. By the way,have you ever read FrankThompkin's Chaying Villa? I think I have,yeS. Doyou recall whetheror not you thoughtit wasaccurate? I thoughtit wasinaccurate. Youthought it was inaccurate?

I thoughtthe bookVila Vi!]g washighly inaccurate,a1so. Howabout Colonel Thompkin's book, do you recall specifically whatyou thought...

No, I don't. I think that Villa hasbeen as greatly romanticizedas probab'lyany characterin the history of NorthAmerica. I knowthe story that wasaround El Pasoin thosedays was that his original crime wasstealing bottles of milk in his hometown.That waswhen he first 40

ran afoul of the'law- I can't vouchfor the tt"uth of that but---

E: That was the story going around?

M: That was the story, yes--that his first offense was stealing milk after it hadbeen delivered. E: Thenight after the Columbusraid, you said the other day that you hadwitnessed the beatinqsof Mexicanson SanAntonio Street?

M: Right.

E: Doyou recall that anyonethat you knewwas involved in this? Did you knowsome of the peoplethat took part in the beatings? No, no. Couldyou tell us whatwas your immediatereaction whenyou sawthis?

Shock. Youwere shocked? Yes, I couldn't believeit. I couldn't believeit. I'd neverrun into

that kjnd of brutal scenebefore and I've seenvery few things since.

I've seena fgw in war where...forinstancen I sawone in WorldWar II duringour moveinto Paris for the liberation of Paris, whereFrench soldiers formeda gauntlet and had the Germanprisoners that we had just taken in an action comedown there and they werebeating themwith rifles andbayonets and canteens and every kind of thing. Frankly,I wasafraid to movein becauseI figured they'd turn on mealso. Doyou recall the reactionsof these Mexicansthat wouldbe set upon? Therewasn't any reaction. Theydidn't havea chancebecause being outnumberedfour or five or six to one, all they could do wastake it.

I didn't seeanybody fight back. hlasthere ever any speculationin El Pasowith regardto the Columbus

raid havingbeen retribution for the fburning]that you told meabout the other day? 41

M: Well, that's whatwe thoughtit was!That's whywe thoughtit happened. That wasthe story that wentaround El Paso.

tr. Wasit the generalfeeling? Did Ang'losand Mexicans alike feel that?

M: I can't answerthat.

E: Youcan't answerthat.

M: I think it wasa completelymistaken assumption. Irve heardmany theoriesabout the raid since that time. In fact, I heardone only a coupleof weeksago--about Villa havinghad a large sumof moneyin a bankin Columbus.He couldn't get hold of it andthat waswhy he raided. Whetherthere is any truth in that I don't know,but I just mentionthat as an exampleof howthese rumors still go aroundin moderntimes.

GeneralMarshall, during this period in the Revolution--theMexican Revolutionon the border--therewere numerous Americans and foreigners whotook part in the revolutionaryfighting as soldiers of fortune. Doyou recalI ever havinqmet any of these? SamDreben. Sam Dreben I first met right after I cameto El Pasoand

I donrt recall the circumstancesvery well. But then'in the post war period he becamea pa1of mineand we spenta great deal of time together. ColonelShepard Philpot was the ProvostMarshall of El Paso

at that time and he wasalso a soldier of fortune. He hadbeen in the tsoxerRebellion among other operations. I think

Samwas in the BoxerRebellion. Weused to go to Judrezalmost daily and havelunch together. Thethree of you?

Thethree of us. Weenjoyed one another'scompany very much. Eachone wouldtry to out-lie the other. Samwas probably as prominenta soldier 42

of fortune as the UnitedStates has ever produced.He was immortalized...

well, that's probablythe wrongword, by DamonRunyon [who] wrote him up--a story called the "FightingJew"; it ran in CosmopolitanMagazine. Hewas, I guess,in his early forties whenI first methim. Hewas

small--well,not small, he wasa little taller than I am, I'd say an inch anda half taller than I am--squatand quite swarthy;any- 'looking; thing but beautiful goodsense of humorand he wasa great braggart. 0h, he lovedto boastabout his achievements.He was quite a liar. But he wasalso an extremelycourageous man. Hebe-

cameone of the mostdecorated soldiers in the AmericanArmy in World t,t|arII. Hewas a well-knowncharacter around town--quite popular

despitehis braggadocio.He was regarded as a local figure of some renown. His famecontinued to spreadin the years that followed.

E: Did you say he foughtin WorldWar II?

M: 0h, yes. Hewas with an'infantry regimentin the 36th Division. I think it wasthe l4lst.

Thatwas the groupcomposed of TexasNational Guardsmen...

That's correct. Hewas with the batallion that wentfrom El Paso.

I think that he wasfirst sergeantof one of the companies.He was in R'ichardBurgess' company, as I recall. He musthave been of a rather advancedage when he went to the Second World War.

Well, hell, a manbeing in his late forties--that's not a greatly advancedage. I thoughtyou said that he wasjn his late forties beforeWorld War I. I'm sorry. No, I wastalking abouthis ageright after WorldWar I. I wouldsay he wasaround 30 or 40 whenI first met him. 43

E: Is it true that he wasborn in[Poltava]Russia?

M. I think that's true, but I'm not sureof the exactp1ace. I'm quite sure he wasRussian. His Eng'lishwas not very good. -t-a-v-a That's[e-o-t I M: ldheredid you get that?

E: That's someinformation I pickedup. I can't recall where. Did you knowTracy Richardson?

M. No, nevermet him. But I knowthat they pal1edtoqether. E: D'idyou ever ask Drebenabout his activities during the 0rozco rebellion?

M: 0h, wediscussed them at qreat'length. But onceaqain, it's like askinqme what we talked aboutin WorldWar II. I can't remember

whatour conversationswere. All he describedwas in verv vivid detail andalways gave himself a biq part.

Whatwas his particular prowessin war? Whatwas his ability? Why

washe sought.outas a soldjer of fortune? Hewas an extraordinarilygood machine gunner for onethinq. Did you knowany other soldiers of fortuneduring this time?

That's all I recall. I'd say Holmdahlwas a soldier of fortune, but I don't think he wasfrom here. Did he havean accentof any kind? No, no noticeableaccent.

GeneraloI'd like to askyou, do you knowif the Cobbfamily has any descendentsst j I I 1iv'ing in El Paso?

I haven'theard. I haven'theard. I'm surethat Howel1 Cobbhad

children. Nowwhether they're still in El Paso,I don't know. Did you ever knowthe Blumenthalfami'ly? 44

M: Very, very wel1.

F. Couldyou tell us aboutthat family, whatyou recall aboutthem?

M: Well, they werein the clothing businesshere. I wouldsay they were the mostprominent haberdashers in El Paso. I met the older peop"le.

I do not rememberthem very well, but MikeBlumenthal v'tas a year

aheadof mein high school. I sawMike throu,fh the years that followed. Mikebecame the youngestCaptain in WorldWar i. I wasthe youngestlieutenant and he wasthe youngestCaptain. E: Andboth from El Paso?

M: Yes, and Dick Lewis,whom I mentionedthe other day, becamethe youngestFirst Sergeant. He wasa First Sergeantat the age of seventeen.

Doyou recall if the Blumentahlsever hadany business transactions

with any of the Mexicanrevolutionary elements?

M: I think so, but I'm certainly no authority on that. General,did you ever meetGeneral Pershing...

0h yes, indeed. I methim the first time at the messtent of F Companyof the I 6th Infantry at CampCotton.

In whatyear, sir? .|9.I5. He camethere just to inspect CampCotton. This wasat noon time and he was inspectingthe mess. I was introducedto him by the First Sergeant--aguy by the nameof Sholtz, Fritz Sholtz, I think it was. I spoketo him very briefly. Followingthe deathof his wife he usedto go out with Mrs. Lanier, whosefirst nameI don't very welI remember.She had beenmy SundaySchool teacher for a while. I met himagain at her house. I think it wason Montana. Did the Generalever remarry? Neverremarried. 45

E: Youmentioned the deathof his wife. For the informationof the

listeners, his wife andone 0r two of his children wereburned to

death.- -

M: I think it wasthree.

E: Threeof his children. M: Threedauqhters. E: Therewas one boy left whocame out here aftenwards. M: Yes, I^larren. E: Burnedto deathat the Presidioin California. Isn't that true? M: That's correct. E: Doyou recall, did you ever hearanything about the effect this may havehad on him? Did he go into any deepdepression after this? M: Yes, I did hear this. I got it fromthe war correspondents.In-

c'identa11y,in connectionwith his ffamily's] death, I wasin the El PasoHerald office at the time it happened.Norman l{alker was workingin the Herald. I mentionedhim the other day. He wasa famous

figure hereas a war correspondent.Later he wasvice-president of

McMathPrinting Company.He was a graduateof IndjanaUniversity. Newscame in of additional informationon the burningof the Presidio andwhat had happened to the Pershincfamily. It told aboutthe daughtersbeing killed as well as the wife. l^lalkercalled up Fort Bliss for the General'saide. Hethought that they wouldwant to get the additional information. Heasked for the General'saide anda

voice carneon the Iine. He said, "Wehave additional informationon the destructionof the Pershinghousehold, the deathsin the fami1y."

Thevoice at the other end said, "Tell meabout it." So he wentinto great detail telling the story andhe didn't realize he wastalking to 46

Pershing. Pershinqhad had no prior notice of it. Whenhe got

throughtalking he said, "Andthat's all. Whatis your name?" He [Walker]

wantedto knowwhat aide he had passedit on to. He said, "This is

GeneralPershing." Pershing said, "Whatis your name?"He said, "Norrnan blalker. " He said, "l,lelI , thank you very much,Mr. lrlalker, for your courtesy." That wasthe end of the conversation. But l,Jalkerand

others told methat during the PunitiveExpedition that Pershingwou'ld leave his tent at night andgo out in the desertby himself. Theyhad mariachismoving along with the Armyand he askedthem to comealong.

Hewould ask themto play "La Paloma"because that washis wife's favorite song. Hesaid that Pershingwould sit there for a long time just listening to the musicover andover. Thatwas the only sion they sawof h'is carryingth'is weighton his shoulders.

F. General,that's an extraordinarystory with regardto Pershing.

M: Incidentally, I never liked him. I didn't like

his methodof command.I could neverdiscover anyth'ing that Pershing

hadcontributed to military thought. I don't think his bra'inwas capableof it. Hewas not really an oppressivecommander. He was

not as hard as a numberof the commanderswe had in WorldhJar I, but he wasbrusque. Hehad too muchreserve, really, as a General. I sawexamples in WorldWar I that he did havea tremendousdignity and an understandingof trooops,but this just cameaccidentally. Part

of my interest in writing myl^Jorld War I history wasto get his reputationin focusbecause he wascredited with doinqa lot of thinqs he did not achieveat all. I hadthat as an object--of puttinq him in perspect'iveand also putting in perspectiveLudendorff's reputation becauseLudendorff had comeout of Worldl,lar I with the greatest 47

of al'l repftations as a strategist andgrandtactician. I thought

he wasanother washout and a damnfool and I wantedto get that

part of it straight. Theseare two of the few themesthat run through

the book.

E: Whatdid GeneralPershing's men think of him hereon the border?

M: Hewas by no meansa popularfigure. As I saynhe could not get close to troops. Hewas like Joe Stillwell in this respect. Hewas about five levels removedfrom the enlisted men. Hedidn't beginto under- standthe soldier very well. Hewas so overly self-containedto the point wherehe couldn't talk to troopseasily. Hehad nothing to say to them. He didn't get over to the troops. E: Washe very consciousof his authority? M: 0h yes, I wouldsay so. The idea that he did not seekhigh command for himself--thatit wasbestowed on him (tfris commandof the AF)--

is absolutelyuntrue. After the expeditiongot out of MexicoI

met with GeorgePatullo andNorman Walker and several other corres-

pondentswho had attended a conferencein Columbusjust as they got over the border. I think that wasin February,wasn't it? Yes,sir. 1917.

Right. Hedrew them together and he saido "Gentlemen,I'm certain that we are goingto war and I'm certain that we're goingto send an expeditionto France. I want to commandthat expeditionary Forceand each one of you knowssomethi ng that you can do to

help me." Patul1ospoke up andsaid, "I'II seeabout writing an artjcle for the SaturdayEvening Post," and so forth and so on. The point is he wentout anddeliberately sought the job. Healready had enoughkudos and huevos that he got it. But he wasa manthat was truly ambitiousfor power. 48

E: Either at that time or later on, did you ever hear about any connections

he mayhave had in Washingtonthat might have facilitated this appoint-

ment?

M: Goodheavens, his marriagewas sufficient for that. His beingjumped

froma Captainto BrigadierGeneral wasn't iust an accident--it was the Senator'sdaughter who worked this out very we11. Hewas quite awareof wherethe powerroots wereand howto get at them. E: Youmentioned the lack of relationshipbetween Pershing and his enlisted men. Theother dayyou mentioned,also, that you knewsome rather well-knownofficers here on the border in the teens. Could

you tel I mewhat his relation.,was'.wlthhh{s,officer3? No, I can't. If I 'impliedthat, I'll haveto makea'retractjon because

outsideof the commanderof the l6th Infantry, WoodenWi11y Allaire

I didn't knowany high rankingofficers. WhenI met Pershinghe was alonewith oneaide. I think CaptainCollins waswith him. I'm not sure aboutthat. I had no associationw'ith officers. Therewas quite an associationin our homewith NC0s. That camefrom my parents. Theywere church.;going people. A goodmany of the NC0swould come to churchand my family wouldinvite themto the home. Wewou'ld have every Sundayand sometimesover a weekendfive or six Sergeantsat the place. I can recall their names,but I didn't payany attention

to thembecause I wasnot particularly interestedin military affairs at that time. As in connectionwith the l6th Infantry association... the merefact that i wasmingling with them, I guess,had someeffect in conditioningme. Whenyou met GeneralPershjng was he civil to you?

We11,as cjvil as Pershing'spersonality permitted--that's in a 49

very limited way- Hemay have said a few words. I don't evenrecall

the conversation.

E: General,once again getting backto your trips to CiudadJufrez 'in thesedays: Youmust have-..you had to havetraveled through the

Southside of El Paso,the area knownas "Little Chihuahua,"I believe. Whatdo you rememberabout conditions there? Anyth'ingin particular or general'lyspeaking--could you te11 us something?

M: I rememberit very we1'lon'ly because I usedto go to the Alcazar Theaterwhich was the cheapestmovie in town. This wasin SouthEl Paso. It wasabout four blocksbelow San Antonio Street on...what's the street that runs past the Del Norte? At any rate, it wasother-

wisewholly a Mexicanaudience from that area. As I said the other

day, the red light district wasthe mostprominent feature of that part of E1 Paso. I'll say this: I wasnever afraid of traveling in

that areaat night. I did it withoutany thoughtof fear. Onewas quite safe.

Wasthis a prevalentfeeling? Did mostof the youngmen your age feel this way? I can't tell you. AlI right. Usuallywhen I wentto ths AlcazarI'd go aloneor with mydad. My dad really enjoyedassociation with Mexicanpeople. It wasmore interesting than the moviesuptown because the movieswere-.attended by 1itt1e purveyorsthat wouldgo up anddown the aisles at inter-

missionscalling "cacahuates,""chocolatesr" "chiclesr" so forth and so on. So there wassome atmosphere andiflafor:in thosgmovies, whereasthere wasnone in the Grecianand the Wigwamand so on. I 50

workedas an usherfor a while in the Wigwam.That wasa rather interesting experiencebecause just downthe al'ley from the Wigwamwas the Lyric Burlesque,a block awav. But you cameout of the backdoor .l00 of the Wigwamand feet awayyou'd see the gals from the Burlesque

laying the soldiersthere in the a11ey.

E: Very interesting.

M: I found it very interesting jn thosedays.

E: I'm sure. Wouldit be safe to say that the populationsouth of SanAntonio Street wasalmost exclusively Mexican? M: 0h yes, almost,almost. Thestreet belowSan Antonio Street was taken up moreby Anglo-ownedstores than by Mexican-ownedstores.

That wouldbe the one exceptionto it. Someof those proprietors lived in their ownbuildings, but southof that nothingexcept Mexicans.

Did you ever knowany Jewsthat I ived in SouthEl Paso?

I don't recall any. Incidentally, I'd remarkthat the Jewish communityhere has always, in myrecollectiono beenpretty muchat one with the rest of the community--moreso than almostany city I knowin the UnitedStates. I've had a great deal of connectionand

experiencewith the Jewishcommunity over the UnitedStates because of my interest in Israel andEl Pasois an exceptionin that respect. I neverhad the experienceof being in a communitywhere there was anti-semitism,marked anti-semitism. Myfather hadmany Jewish friends andwe wereaccustorned to havingthem in the home,so I grew

up unawareof anti-semitism. A few years ago NBCdid an hour show or half hour showon mylife and they weretrying to find out why I wasso sympathetictoward Israel, prying for examplesof my having 5l

witnessedanti-semitism as a child. I said, "I can't addanything,

it just wasn'tthat way." Myexperience in El Pasosort of capped

experienceselsewhere around the UnitedStates. I neverhad

lived in a communitywhere there wasa discernibleanti-Jewish sentiment. tr. lrlithregard to a lack of anti-semitismhere in El Paso,was this the true feeling...do you think, to the extent that you could know,on the part of the Mexicanpopu'lace--that they werenot anti-semitic? M. I neversaw any signs of it.

E: Younever saw any signsof it. Wouldyou attribute...it has struck me throughoutthis interview that you consideredrelations betweenthe various ethnic groupsin El Pasoto be on the wholepretty goodwhile you lived here in the teens.

In the teens, ro, I didn't think that they werebetween the people

of SouthEl Pasoor southof SanAntonio Street and the rest of the

community.I thoughtthere wasvery wjdespreadprejudice against

Mexicans--notin the high schooi,but amongthe real "Tejanos"in this area.

Well, that's interesting. Now,what kind of manifestat'ionswould that

prejudice take betweenthe "Tejanos"and the "Mexicanos"? M: We11,I gaveyou the exampleof this massbeating that I saw. 0ut- side of thato I haveno impressionexcept the carelessway'in which...

the snide wayin whichmany of the "Tejanos"I knewhere wouldspeak of Mexicans.

E: Theother dayyou werevery enlighteningon a particular figure who

seemsto haveplayed a prom'inentrole in El Pasocircles during the teens. That wasH. D. Slater. Whatother newspapersin towndo you 52

recall other than Mr. Slater's Herald? Whatdo you recall about the

peoplethat ran themat that time?

M: I recall the Crty oJ Mexic-o_.No, that wasn't the nameof it. There

wasa Mexjcanpaper here edited by...letrs seewhat was his name... CarlosCervantes G. Thenthere wasthe Times. Incidentally, the

I-Uqs at that time wasedited by Jim rtu* ,1ack, I think, was probablythe mostarticulate andthe best writing editor that this city hadever known--anextraordinary person in every respect. He wasa Spanish-AmericanWar veteran. WhenI becamea reporter I got

moreadvice from the editor of the limet than I got from anyonearound merbecausewe were friends. Hewould keep on telling me, "Here's a mistakeyou're making,don't repeatthat mistake." So I knewhim

in a very unusualway considering that we wereon rival newspapers.

Hewould be amongall the writing peoplein this community probablythe mostdistinguished figure.

Howlong wasMr. Blackthe editor of the El PasoMorning Times? Upti'|1 the time that webought the paperwhich, I think, was1926. Andsince whenhad he beenthe editor? I'm not sure, but he waseditor pre-war.

Pre-WorldWar I?

Yes. Thepaper was owned by EaaieSimmons whowas a youngsportsman-- tennis player...anda goodone.

Doyou haveany r'deawho was the editor of the El PasoMognJIsTimes betweenI 910 and 1922--191 5? No, I don't. 0.K. Thename of the newspaperthat Mr. Cervantes--theSpanish language

newspaperthat was here--by any chancewas it La lalria? No, thatrs the wrongname. 53

M: Therewas also a Mexicanedition of the Timesas I recall it. I

rememberthe City of MexicoStore washaving a removalsale and their ad translator wasa manwho had learned his Spanishjn the United

States. Theyran a big doub'letruck ad and the headlinewas to be

acrosstwo pages"Gran Venta de Evacuacio'n"and it didn't fit and

it cameout "GranVenta de Deficacidn"fraio Sut. of Shit)]which was one of the great jokes of that period. Did you ever knowW. Tovary Bueno? Noothe namedoesn't ring a bel1. I believehe wasthe Spanishedition of the Timeseditor.

No.

How wouldyou rank the quality of the Heraldand the El Paqol{qrqilg Iimes during thoseyears? M: Far superioronot only to present-dayjournalism, but to the papers of cities of this size over the country. Theywere very well run,

very well written, strong editorials; it wasthe heydayof newspaper bus'iness.

E: Whatwere H. D. Slater's viewsabout the MexicanRevolution? M: I can't tell you., I don't think I ever discussedthe subjectwith him. E: Didyou ever discussthem with Mr. Black?

I djd at great'length, but again I can't recall I can't recall

what his views were. Doyou recall if either newspaperfavored any faction over another? We1l,when I first camehere Villa wasstill a very popu'larfigure along the border. He had quite goodrelations with the press. There wasno real anti-Villista sentiment. Juf,rezwas a seaof iniquity. 54

El Pasoansenjoyed it, but as for that havinganything to do with the pub'licsentiment, I don't think so. Incidentally, in later years at the time whenI wascity editor of the Hergldand the PgsLby that time was in being--this wasaround 1926--the El Paso.P_g$started a campaignto close the bridgeat six o'clock. Their mainidea was that there wastoo muchbooze coming across the border and El Pasoans weregetting too drunkenand that kind of thing. I took up the fight againstthem. No, this was1927, come to think of it... I wentto the

Ministerial Allianceof El Pasoto get their supportfor myposition-- that closing the bridgewould work a hardshipeconomically on both communitiesand that that wasthe primaryconsideration. Theyendorsed the position of our paper. After a month'sfight, the UnitedStates governmentjust turned thumbsdown on the propositionof closing the bridgeearlier. I referredto Joe Dunnthe other day. I didn't know until that time that Joe wasan agent for the Mexicangovernment in

El Paso. Hewas still officed in the Electric Building. Hecalled meover to his office andwe hada brief conversation.He saidn

"I've got somethinghere for you." Hehanded over an envelopewith five onethousand dollar bills in it. I said, "llhat is that for?" Hesaid, "We11,that's for keep'ingthe bridgeopen." I said, "Wel1,

Joe, why? Whyyou?" Andhe said, "Wel'lr you didn't knowthat I'm representingthe state of Chihuahuaand also the federal government andsome matters of this kind." I said, "I didn't haveany idea, but you knowthat I don't take that kind of money." He said, "I appreciate that fact. I didn't think you'd go for it." Thenhe said, "Have you got any objection if we havea big affair at the Central Cafi and spendthe five thousanddollars on havinga big party: the governor of Chihuahua,the mayor,and the Commanderof troops present." I said, 55

"That soundsgood. If you want to spendthe money,go aheadand do it." It wasa real w'ingding.We had a great time.

E: Whoall wasthere? Doyou rememberthe namesof the principals

there at that party?

M: No, I don't remember.Arnulfo Gdmez,I think, wasin commandof troops.

He later took part in a rebellion, didn't he? Yes,that wasright after I left El Paso. Andhe waskilled, wasn'the? That's right. Alongwith Serrano,right?

Yes. I think Serranofled to Candda,didn't he? I'm not sure. I

think Serranogot awayto Candda. [Here I confusedSerrano with anothergeneral.] Ulises Irigoyenwho was a great friend of mine andTony Bermddez and so on, all the friends I had in Jufrez were at the party and someof the El Pasoofficials. I guessthere must havebeen three hundredpeople there that night.

E: That's interesting. Did you write it up in the paper?

M. No, I don't recall that I did. E: Thankyou, General. 56

[srA tnterview session,,]ul y 7, 1975f

E: GeneralMarshall, towardthe end of the last [interview] you had someinteresting observations on El Paso--onits uniqueness,on its friendliness. Couldyou reiterate someof those comments?

M: I said that El Pasoimpressed me and impressedmy family as being the friendliest city that we'dever knownand we had lived all over the United States. As soonas we camehere, everyonemade us welcomeand madeus feel that we werenot in any sensestrangers and that we

werepart of the society here. I kept telling my Dresentwife that through the years...that this wasthe uniquequality of El Paso. Shehardly

believedme and I...comingback iust this past year in 1974...having beenabsent since 1927,we've had exactly.the same experience. In

fact, I hadmore friends in El Pasothat continuedthrough the years than I ever madein Michiganin morethan forty years that I've lived

there. Myreal friends havealways been either in El Pasoor in the Army. I can think of only oneor two individualsin Michiganthat I could say these are myclose personalfriends. I often pondered whythis was so, and I think I told you that I attributed it to the fact that El Pasois so far from any other communityof its size.

Alsooit's not rea'l]yTexas; its interests are in NewMexico and Mexico, and it's a little kingdomori its own. In mycase, for instance,I started here as a sophomorein school, a total stranger. Thenwhen we movedto the newhigh schoo'lChris Fox,who's still living, wasnot

only the dominantfigure in that studentbody, he practically ran

the school. Weall called him "General"because of his influence. He could do almostanything he wantedwith the studentbody and with

the faculty. I recall in myjunior year and I'd beenhere then iust 57

a year--I hada Spanishteacher, AdaBurke, who was the daughterof the Treasurerof the UnitedStates, John Burke. Shewas one of the three adult membersof the student-facultycouncil. Chris wasb3u far the mostprominent student on the council. Ada Burkedecided that he had too muchpower in the school. Sheput meup for two offices in oppositionto himand I thoughtthis wasthe greatestioke that could be 'imagined.To my total surprise I wonthem. Goingback over that incident, it remindsme of a point I madein the Guideto 0fficership in ArmedServices--that self-confidence and courageand that kind of thingoor if you will "leadership,"is a quality that no onerecognizes in himself; the normalperson doesn't. It comesto you fromwithout. I'd hada similar experience'inhigh schoolin California whenI was a freshman. ThereI really wgsa stranger. It wasnot very easy to get acquaintedin California despitethe fact that I hadthis job with the motionpicture company.It wasnot easy to makefriends.

Thebig event of the year waswhat was called the iunior prom. The principal, ProfessorWright, was announcing the committeefor the junior promand he wasnaming one personfrom eachclass. He sudden'ly said, "SamMarshall from the freshmanclass." I thoughtto myself' "Theremust be someother Saml4arshall here in this class that I haven'tmet." Thesethings cameto meas total surprisesbecause I wasnot--except in musicand so on--I wasn'ttrying to play a lead part in anything. Whenyou wereelected to thoseoffices in oppostionto Chris Fox did anybodycall you "Generalu? Noonot at all. He's still called "Generaln"by the way,by all of us that knewhim in those days.[Butnobody ever called megeneral when

I wasyoung.l 5B

All his closefriends?

M: Yes, he'd have madea very good Generalbecause he did knowhow to mold

humannautre and get peop'lemoving with him.

E: Well, you, then, off and on have probab'lyknown Chris Fox as long as

anyone.

M: Well, hardly, becausethere is still a numberof his classmatesaround here whowere born in El Paso. He's knownGladys since he wasa chita,(fris wife). I knewher at that time. Shewas almost as prominentas Chris wasin the seniorclass.

F. He is, withouthdoubt, one of the mostprominent El Pasoansthrouqhout the years that this city hasever had. To your mind,General Marshall, whyhas Chrjs Foxbeen such an outstandjngfiqure in the community?

M: Point numberone, becauseof his personalityand the natureof his career. But I think the secondpart is that no other personhas been sucha bond'inqinfluence at any tjme betweenthe Armyand the civiljan community.You spoke of his reputationnationally--certainly this per- sists throughoutthe Army. Youtalk to anybodyabout E1 Paso--anyone in the Arm.y--andthey immediatelybring up the nameof Chris Fox. "Do

you knowChris Fox?" Thereis no one else in that samecategory. He

hasbeen unique in his relationshipbetween the ArmedForces and the civilian community.I think that El Pasoprobab'ly is moreat onewith the Armythan any communityin the UnitedStates. To a certain extent it's dueto h'is efforts. Yes, I think it's duemore to Chris Foxthan to any other oneperson or any groupof persons.

General, did Chris Foxjoin you whenyou wentoff to Worldl^Jar I? No, he wentinto the Marines. 59

E: Hewent into the Marines?

M: Yes,went into the Marines. Hehad a very goodrecord in the Marines.

Oneof the things that tied him to the Armyso closely, of course,vvas that his son, Chris Jr., waskilled in Armyservice in WorldWar II. Hewas the appleof Chris' eye. So he has very goodreasons for this deepkinship. Mostof our chaps,I wouldsay, from El PasoHigh School

wentinto the Army. Thatwas an interestingthing aboutEl PasoHigh School. l{e spokethe other day aboutthe fact that MikeBlumenthal wasthe youngestCaptain and DickLewis was the youngestFirst Sergeant. This high schoolalmost bailed out whenwar camea1ong. Livinq in a

communit.ythat wastied closely to the Army,it wasa natural thing for youngE1 Pasoansto qo jnto the servjces. A numberof my classmates wentinto flying immediately.I wasnot interestedin qoinginto aviation at all. Morewent into the Armythan any other service. A good

manyof the youngsterswent into the Navybecause they foundit difficult to enlist in the Army. l,.lehad one family I remember,four brothers. I forget their name. [It wasCrane.] Theyoungest kid wasfourteen and

they all went into the Navy. I dare say that E1 pasoHigh school sent a higher percentageof meninto the servicesin Worldl,'jar I than anv school in this country.

In that last interview,or perhapsthe onepreceding that one,you also madethe point that the youngmen in this communitywere tough individuals. Yousaid that they weremoral and upright andyet that they had a toughnessthat camefrom growing up on the border. Isn't that whatyou...? Yes, that's riqht. Therewas practically no drinkingamong the kids in high school. Theyhad, in that time, an extraordinaryrespect for their women,the qirls--a desire to protect them. Therewas no looseness 60

amongthe sexesup there. Thatwas, again, the thing that surprisedme.

lnlhenI said that they weremore mature, more masculine, I meantthat

in the best senseof the term. Theydidn't seemjuvenile at all' the

preponderantnumber of kids up there.

E: Andthese younq men that vrentoff to lrlorldl^lar I, did they for the most part performwel I ? t4: I didn't keepa record. All that i knewof performedwell. That's all I can say. I cited somethat hadspecial distinction. Mostof them wentin early, however.They weren't last minutesoldiers. 0.K. General,what year did you go off to war? 1917. Whendid you return? .l9.l9. .l9.l9. Late Theend of September I think for the benefit of continuity perhapsit wouldbe best to continue

the interview with your experiencesupon your return to El Paso. Perhaps later on we'll return to interviewyou on WorldWar I.

I think that that's a goodidea and for anotherreason. TheArmy lllar Collegeat Carlyle Barrackshas done about something like forty hours of taping interviewson mymilitary experience. I'm certain that you

can get copiesof those tapes from them. Theyinterviewed extensively' I think it was,eight Generalswithin theselast two yearswho had performedin l,lorldWar II. 0f course, I vvasnot a Generalin World WarII, but they decidedto includeme though I wasnot a regular because myexperience was more extensive than any of the Generalsthat they interviewedas far as war vvasconcerned since I had, in addition to both the Pacific and the Europeantheaters in WorldWar II, two tours

in Koreaand four tours jn Vjet Nam. So I hada longerperspective on combatthan any of the others. I believeit wouldbe best to hop 6l

back to El Pasowhen I returned.

F. All right. Giveus the setting of your return to El Paso. Try to re- create for us the troop train or whateverit wasthat you cameback on.

M: Therewas no troop train. I wasin commandof a Negrocompany when I cameback to the UnitedStates and I demobjlizedthem at CampShelby, Mississippi. ThenI cameon alone. By the time I got backto the

UnitedStates the war hadbeen forqotten. Therewere no cheers in NewYork or at any of the camps. Nobodywas paying any attention to us exceptthe little kids in the neighborhoods.When I returnedI wasbriefly on duty at Ft. Bliss for aboutthree weeks. Myonly ex-

periencethere, that I recall, wasthat for the only time in mylife I wascounsel for the defense'in a court-martial. I got myman off, a

sergeantwho had been accused of stealing shoes. Whetherhe wasouilty, I'm not sure. I wentto the Schoolof Minesimmediately. In those

daysthere wasno GI Bill, no separationpay. It wasiust normalpay. Youdidn't get extendedleave when you got out. I hadlost thirteen hundreddollars in a crookedpoker game coming back from Europe. It

wasa strangething. Wecame back on a [ship] called Koniqindu Weder- lander, a Dutchship. blewere fourteen days at sea. Everybodywas seasickall the wayfrom the bay of Biscayto NewYork City, NewYork Harbor. Wegot in this game. Wedidn't realize that we.werebeing

taken by a professionalgambler who was a Maior. Hewas a gambler

from FrenchLick Springs,Indiana. We caught him at it the last night. By that time we wereal I broke. Thenwe wereup against the fact that if we ppefemedcharges against him we'd haveto stay over in NewYork for an extendedperiod. Wejust decjdedwe'd take our med'icineand forget it. So I got backto El Pasoflat broke. I recall it because

I wascoming up from the station--walk'ingfrom the UnionStat'ion--and 62

I passedNorton Brothers Book Store and I had a dollar and fifty cents in my pocket. I sawa bookin there--JohnMasefield's book on Gallipoli--andI figured that I mightas well be brokeas the wayI was, so I went in and boughtthat bookand walked home. Welived in HighlandPark at that time. That bookwas the beginningof my military library. That bookis in the collection at UTEP.I didn't realize at that time that I wasgoing to movein that direction. But I got into the Schoolof Minesfor only onereason. I didn't havethe credits to get in, but there wasa special provis'ionmade that jf a man hadbeen away a sufficiently long time that he wouldbe an adult among kids if he wentback to high school,he couldautomatically qualify for co1lege. 0therwiseI couldn't havegone there eventhe brief time that I did. As I say, I hadno moneyand my parentsdidn't haveany to send methere; so I wasfiguring out waysthat I could get by. I foundthat by putting a five dollar gold pieceon a punchboard and selling chances at a quarter I couldclean up abouttwenty one dollars and twentyfive cents a week. Theother sourceof revenuewas that being a rniningschoo'l peoplebent on Engineeringand Education,everyone had a contemptfor Englishwhich was a requiredsubject in the freshmanyear. Wewere requiredby ProfessorTaylor to turn in oneessay every week. There wereseventeen boys in the class and I waswriting anywherefrom twelve to fifteen essaysevery weekand selling themfor a dollar a p'ieceto myclassmates. Professor Taylor knewthis very well. Hewould, for instance,listen to a recital of the essayand he wouldsay, "Mr. Broderick,that's all riqht. Youwill get a passingmark on it." Then he wouldturn to meand say, "Mr. Marshall,you're not up to your usual formon that one." This didn't go on very long becauseI vvason the football team. I got badly brokenup in football. I,llelost two 63 quarterbacks,two Saturdaysrunning. I wasplaying end. F'irst, Preston

Peneuotgot a broken1eg in one game,and then the weekafter that,

GradyWeeks, who followed him, wasshot throughthe heart with a h'igh poweredrifle while he wasdown in the Valley stealing watermelonsone

Saturdayafternoon fo1'lowing the game.lit wasa teamlark.] So on Monday I becamethe quarterbackwithout any understudy. The first play of the gameI brokemy shou'lderin two places, my scapula. That is, I wrenched it out fromthe clavicle andthen there wasalso a fracture. I didn't know;I thoughtI just dislocatedit. I playedthe rest of the gamein that condition. It didn't botherme to run with the ball or to pass. I completedfour out of six passeswith a brokenshoulder. Whatdid get mewas when I'd run interferenceand come down on the elbow; then I'd get a terrific shock. Whenthat gamewas over I realized that I wouldn't be able to play football anymore. It took mesomething like six years to get to the point wherethis shoulderwas workable again so that I could play baseballagain. I couldn't raise it abovethe shoulder level but I finally madethe gradeal'l right. However,the shoulder not havingrecovered, I still wentout for basketball. I tried to play it with onearm. I didn't expectto get into any games. In the first... Wehad a very small squadand in the first gamewe played NewMexico State or the Aggiesas wecalled themthen. Wedidn't even havea gym. Weplayed at the old El PasoYMCA. They had wonfour gamesalready in the conferenceand we hadn't evenplayed a game. In the first few minutesof the gamewe ran up the score somethinglike elevento nothingagainst themdue largely to one forwardby the name of Bi11y Raceon our teamwho was also an ex-Armyofficer. Thenthe Aggiessort of wentwild. 0n the next play a jump-off betweentheir center andour runningguard, a chapby the nameof Losseefrom Bisbee... 64

the centerjumped for the ball andwith the otherhand hit

Losseeon the jawand knockedhim cold. Theycarried Lossee out and

I went in his place. Thecrowd saw the punchbut the referee hadmissed it. Thenwhen the play wasresumed with mejumping for the balI again,

becausethat's howthe play with Losseehad ended, he hit meand dis- 'located my jaw. Whenthat happenedthe wholecrowd swarmed onto the playing floor swingincclubs andpistols andchairs andanything they could get hold of. Theshow broke up in a riot andthey hadto call the police. Thegame was forfeited, the Aggiesnine to nothingbecause it

hadoccurred on our floor. Thatended me at TexasMines. I sa'id, "The hell with it. School'sjust getting too rough."

E: That wasthe end of your academiccareer?

M: That's right. I finished withoutany credits whatever. E: General,did you ever go to collegeafter that? M: No.

E: No formal university educationafter that?

M. None.

E: I'd like to ask you: Thirteenhundred dollars--i can't get it out of

mymind--was a lot of moneyback in thosedays and still is, andyet as you relate,this story you don't seemto havegotten in somebig, deep depressionbecause of it. Did you?

M. No, there wasno use in womyingabout it; it happened.I realized I hadbeen a damnfool, but so did everybodyelse'in the game. So there wasno usecrying aboutit. WhenI quit schoolI workedat various jobs. I couldn't makeqood on any of them. I couldn't understandwhy. I wentto min'ingat Bisbee,as a surveyor.

E: Whatyear wasthis? M: It was1920. Themine closed down because of the 1owprice of copper. 65

I workedas a cowhandat the Love Ranchin Sierra Blanca. Then that job just peteredout. I workedas a coal salesmanand as a paper sales- man- I wasn't doinq any qoodfor myself at anything I tried- I went backin the Armybecause I at least knewI couldfunction there. We've already coveredhow I happenedto get on a job whereI waswriting and

I foundout I couldwrite. I so'lda coupleof short stories to national magazinesat that t'ime. Thatwas what convinced me I couldwrite. But, later whenI resignedfrom the Armyit wasbecause they passeda new Armybill cutting downthe size of the Army. I wasa First Lieuten- ant and it wouldhave reduced me to a SecondLieutenant at the samepay that I'd beendrawinq pay as a First Lieutenant.I don't rememberwhy there wasthat quirk in the bjll, but I fiqured I'd hadenough time as a SecondLieutenant. Also, I hadthis idea of writ'ing--thatI might be able to do it. As soonas I qot out of the Army,however, I lost all confidencein myability to write andstarted lookingaround for a miningjob. I hadapp'lied for a job in Tyrone,New Mexico, and was waiting for'the answerto that riessag;eat the time that I accidenta'lly got the job on the El PasoHelald. It wasjust two daysafter I got the job on the He.raljlthat i got a messagefrom Tyroneto comeon, that they hada placefor me. So, onceagain, it wasa matterof a career just turning on a dime. I'd hadthe sameexperience in Francein .l9.|9. Januaryof I can look backand see a numberof times whenjust a fluke happenedthat turnedme in a certain direction. That's the only reasonthat I advertedto that experiencein football in France. I wasabout to get weededout. I had beensent to LaValbonne,France. js an instructor in the Infantry CandidateSchool. I arrived late and they gaveme the Marineplatoon because the Marineswere the last to get there. I wentout for football. Yousee, the football season 66

started late over there becausethe war hadended in the middleof

November.I wasabout to be weededout becauseI wassmall, unimportant, andunimpressive. Then our teamplayed against the basesection team fromBrest. 0n the first play of the game--incidentally,our teammates, 'like our schoolmatesohad bet something seventy-sixthousand francs on us at the time that a franc wasworth twentyfive cents. So it wasa very importantgame for them. 0n the first p'layof the gamewe havekicked off andtheir star halfbackis returningthe kickoff; left endand our right halfback (the left end wasan Indian from Carlyle by the nameof Herreraand the halfbackwas Hartelling from the University of Southern California) crossedscalps in tackling this man. Bothof themripped their scalpsopen and were taken to the sidelines. [Thequarterbacko Brownie Springerof l4ichiganState] motionedto the sideline for someoneto comein andtake Hartelling's placeand for an endto comein to take the place of Herrera. Thebench got the signa'lmixed up and they sent mein instead of Lou Missig whowas supposedto go. 0n the next play of the game(their halfbackhad fumbled and we hadrecovered) I failed to explainthat. 0n the next play of the gameBrownie Springer,our quarterback who had been captainand quarterback at MichiganState, called for a passover our right end becauseat that positjon wasl,lorman of Northwesternwho was all-Americanin the precedingyear. Twohalfbacks are to go out there also as receivers. Springercou'ldn't find any of the receivers. Twoof them hadbeen blocked out. I don't rememberwhat happenedto Norman,but Springer tried to throw the ball away. It camewithin five yards of meand I caughtit andwent thirty-eight yards for a touchdown.The game ended six to nothing.

That's the only gameI ever wonby nyself in mylife. Becauseit happened that way,they couldn't weedme out. I madeit in that oneplay. So 67

I wenton in the AEFfor anotherseven, eight months,and commanded three different companiesin that time. I learnedmore in that experience than in any like period in mylife, by far. This wasmy real schoo'ling becausein the caseof two of these companiesI wasa free agent; I coulddo anythingI pleased. I couldexperiment with men--findout whatmen were like. In the caseof the WhiteCompany that I commanded at Le Mans,,France, I had no one over meexcept the commanderof the

S0Swho lvas a three star Generaland was paying no attention to me. So I could do just as I pleased. trlewere the Companythat wasguarding the great AEFSalvage Plant at PontelieuSquare and I wasCamp Commander. thoughthere wereabout ten Colonelsin the camp. This wasa great experimentalstation. It wasa great experimentalperiod in mylife.

I guessmy basic jdeas aboutcommand were formed in that Xims. That's extraordinary. Doyou ever marvelat the fact that your 1ife, the coursethat jt's taken, has sometimesbeen dictated by suchflukes as you... ?

0h yes, I do. I do becauseI've hadluck extraordinary--justone fluke after another. In fact, whenI started wrjting mymemoirs I recalled the story aboutthe chapwho...Fred Wardel, who had foundedthe Eureka vacuumcleaner and madea mint of moneyout of it. TheAmgrican MagaSile sent a reporter out to get one of their successstories, FredWardel being a very prominentman in the UnitedStates at that time. So he cameout andasked Wardel, "Mr. Wardel,looking back over it, what factor in your life andyour personality accountsfor the pos'itionyou nowhold?" Wardelsaid, "I don't quite get the question. Whatare you driving at?" He said, "Wellowhat was it that madeyou suchan astoundingsuccess in the businessworld?" l,llardelsaidn "Youngman, it happenedbecause I hada shitpot full of luck. Nowif you can make 68

a story out of that you go backto your maqazineand write it." The story wasnever written. I also said that I'd heardmany people make

the retort, "Yes,but you haveto makethe mostof your chances." Well, that's true. But you canalso look backover your life and think about

howmany chances you missed. Youhave to considerthe fact that I was .|900 unusuallyfortunate in being born in becausefrom there on I had no difficulty rememberinqdates. Everydate, everythingthat happenedto meI could associateit with myage at that particular time. I could rememberwhen a pi@ceof popularmusic came out becauseit coin-

cidedwjth the year of my1ife. I didn't haveto addor subtract. Do you follow me?

E: Yes, sir, I do. Nowyou werewith the AEFfor howlonq, sir? M: Twoyears lacking two months.

E: Andthen whatdid you do?

M: After I cameback to El Paso? E: Yes.

We11,as I told you, I wasa magnificentfailure for a coupleyears. I wouldhave fitted RobertLouis Stevenson's definition of the total washout

in that period. Therewere times then whenI certainly lost confidence in myself. I wonderedwhat it wasall about. I couldn't really figure out whyI wasdoing so badly. tr. Thenyou started workingfor the newspaper? M: Yes. E: Wouldyou considerthat a turning point in your life? M: Fromthere on my life pattern waspretty well fixed. I don't think

there's any questionabout that; I had, I think, a quickerand moredynamic rise than any newspaperman,certainly, that the Southwest ever turned out. h|ith'inthree years, three and a half years, I was 69

runningthe paper--theeditorial side of it. But that happenedthrough, again, dint of circumstance.You see, the Klanwas a majordeterminant

of manythings in the 1920shere in El Paso. I will speakof mypersonal experience with it. Slater wasdead set againstthe Klan.

Hehad a spotter within the Klan. E: A spotter? M: A spotter, that's a personwho is an agent... E: A plant? M: Yes,that's right. Andat the tjme, S'latermade up his mindhe wasgoing

after the Klan. Hemade the manreport to him on whoon his staff was 'in the Klan. I was, first of all, just a reporteron the paper,coverjng police andso on. ThenI becamesports editor. After that--I'm break-

ing continuity a little b'it here--thenI becamecity editor, then front

pageco'lumnist on the paper. But it wasin the periodwhen I wasstill

a reporter that Slater decidedthat he's goingto engagethe Klan. Heclis-

covered,somewhat to his shock,that out of an editorial staff of twelve individuals I wasthe only personon the papernot a Klansman--that is on the staff. So at the time of the PeteGardner-Dick Dudley

campaign,despite my greenness and lack of experience,I wassudden'ly

madethe political reporterof the paperin 1921. TheKlan, at that timeo had a strong hold within city government.The mayor was not a Klansman.I don't rememberwho was the mayorat that time. It had an absolutelyfirm hold on countygovernment in the CountyCommis- sioner's court. Myjob wasto seethat both of theses..thatthis ele- mentwas eliminated. Theanti-Klan peoplewanted both control of the city government--thatis, Dudleywas elected which ended the Klan's

bid for powerin the city. Pete Gardnerwas a Klan candidate. The countyelection wasa srfueepingsuccess. All the Klan commissionerswere 70 wipedout. So, in effect, at a very tenderage--I wasstill on'ly23--

I foundmyself in positionwhere I wasvirtually countyboss of El Paso and could do anythingthat I wanted. The fact that we had succeeded, of coursergdVe me tremendous kudos with Slater. Shortly after thatr.he had a newspaperefficiency personby the nameof Weill comeout from the BaltimoreSun to see whatwas wrong with the Heraldand howto re- .1925 organ'izeit and so forth. Well, this musthave been becauseby that time I washead over myheels in baseballorganization in this communityand elsewhere. Weill washere for abouta monthand I would take him out to baseballgames. I wascultivating him just to find out whathe waslike. I wouldbet a quarteror a half a dollar on a play that wascoming up--betting in order to lose to himbecause I knewthe playerswell enoughto be fairly sure of whatwas going to happen. Maybeby the endof that monthI hadlost somethinglike eight or ten dollars to him. All I wastry'ing to do wasget a measureof him-- what he waslike. But to myutter bewildermentand to the damnation of the paper, whenthe wholeth'ing was over, he told Slater that there wasnobody on our editorial staff that could be trusted exceptmyself and that there wereother ex-Klansmenin the businessend of the organization. Almostwithout exceptionthey weresuddenly swept out with a broomand I foundmyself a senior memberof the organizationthat I had beenwith only aboutthree years. It wasone of the worst fool movesthat I've ever seena newspaperpublisher make. To me, it wasinv'iting disaster. Youmight wonder the reasonwhy I wasn'ta Klanmember. I couldn't stand the organization. I figured it wasun-Amerjcan and that it u'ltimately mustfail. Youcan't imaginehow it hadpermeated the community.It was'in control, for instance,of the AmericanLegion here. It wasin control of the MasonicLodqe. It wasin control of the Nat'ionalGuard. 71

I had beenan officer in the l{ational Guardand practically every other memberof the Guardwas in the Klan. But I couldnrttake it. I say parentheticallythat someof myrelatives werein the Klan. I couldn't take it. It seemedto mea rather monstrousjdea. Furthermore,it was fu11yal'ien to this conrmunity.There might have been towns and cities in the UnitedStates whereit had somerelevance. Hereit wasa kind of a social activity morethan all else. Jjm Blacknwho was the editor of the Timesthat I spokeabout, wastaken out for a ride by the Klan at that time. Theythreatened to tar and feather him. I madeup my mindthat that wasnot going to happento meand I workedw'ith a qun in mydesk top drawerand I carried one in El Pasowhen I movedabout becauseI just madeup mymind I wasnot going to go for that kind of thing. Thetwo electionsdamn well decidedthe fate of the Klan jn El Paso. Fromthat time on the organizationjust graduallypetered out.

Theconsequences to the newspaperwere enormous. I figured, from m.yposition, that onceyou havewon a battle you don't continueto fight it. Slater didn't think that way. Havingbeat the Klanhe wasout to destroy every personwho had beenprominently connected with it. He couldnrt stand the idea of any former Klansmanbeing given any pre- fermentin El Paso. Thatwas somethjnE that we usedto ,irqueabout a great deal. His...the venomin his systemwas something that I couldn't quite understand.Ultimately all of thesethings hada great deal to do w'ith meleaving the community. General,what do you knowabout the Klanrsattitudes towardsMexicans at this time?

Wel1,as far as violenceis concerned,there waspractically noneof it exhibitedby the Klanhere. I can't recall anythingof real importance. 72

TheKlan was opposed to all forejgners,to all Jews,and to all Catholics.

E: So they got the Mexicanson two counts?

M: Yes- That wasjust part of its credo. So I think by nature it had to be anti-Mexican. E: Yousaid, however,that the Klanin El Pasowas more of a social organization than anythinge1se. So it wasnothing comparable to...?

M: 0h, they usedto get out and burn crosseson MountFranklin and they'd wearhoods. Theymade a lot of noise. Actual1y,in that period I wasimpressed by onething--that there wasn'ta hell of a lot of differ-

encebetween the radicals in the two camps. Theyused to comeinto the office and visit meand stormup and downand rave and rant. I was getting aboutthe sameline from both parties--extraordinaryvehemence,

profanity, vulgarjty, all that kind of thing. You'dthink the issue wasreally somethingthat wouldsettle the fate of mankindfor years to

come. I mean,there wasfanaticism both in the Klanand in its opposi- ti on.

0bvious'lythere musthave been something about the EI Pasocommunity

that did not maintainan attraction for the Klan. It certainly doesn't

seemto haveleft any vestiges to this day. No, I don't think there is the slightest remnanthere. I wouldsay that by 1927,at the time I left here, the Klan wasdead. But whatwasn't deadwas the animositiesand the antipathiesthat hadcome out of the struggleswithin the city. Personalgrudges continued. This entire Klanepisode and the animositiesthat resulted..theseani- mositieswere between Anglo and Anglo. Is that right? Largelyso. 73

E: 0f course,we knowthat during the 1920sthere wasa tremendousre- surgenceof the Klu Klux Klan throughoutthe nation. l,rlasthis merely

a reflection of that, do you think 0r...?

M: We1],the Klanhad a very, very stronghold in Texas. E: Tell us moreabout this. M: It had a strong hold in Texasgovernment, Texas state government.I can't go into details nowbecause that's somethingthat is pretty well wipedout of mymind. I didn't I'ike to rememberjt. I can remembermy personalexperiences with it, but I couldnever reaily understandwhy it evenarose in El Paso. It attracteda lot of peoplewho like to be

ioiners andwho thought they wouldget somepolitical backingout of it. I think that thjs wasthe mainthing. Certainindividuals saw a chance to get a powergroup behind them out of the Klan.

F. Youdon't think the hatredelement was all that extant here?

M: No, not in the majority.

E: lrlhatother burning issueswere there during your ten years as captain of that newspaper?

M: I wasn'tcaptain of the newspaper.Captain Slater wascaptain of the newspaper.Crime, Depression. .. tr. Whatkinds of crime?

M: We1],this city in the 1920swas still rampant. Therewas a

lot of gjunfighting. It hadsome of the;11s1.stmurdercases I've ever run into in mylife. Thepioneer element was still present. I can rememberone day, for instanceowhen I wascity editor that we were lookingfor a headline. By ten o'clock in the morningour Jua'rezre- porter said, "There'sa newrevolution starting over here. It seems 74

to be a revolution. Thereis armedfighting in the streets." I said,

"That's it; we go w.iththat headline." Thenwe get to aroundeleven o'clock andthere is a call in fromthe manon the courthousebeat that a coupleof deputieshad been shot andone of themkilled trying to evict a pioneerfrom his homestead.I said, "Knookdown the revolution andput that story up." Andthen anotherhalf hour passesand wetre already to go with the paperand a call comesin that the vice-president of the NationalBank had killed himselfand his bodyis out in the car out in the Austin Temacearea. I knockeddown the story of the pioneer and put that story up top becauseI figured everybodywho was a de- positor in the First NationalBank would be concerendabout why Tooley hadkilled himself. That kind of violencewas quite preva'lent. I rememberthe G.H.and S.A. holdup,for instance,where there weresix bandits--Mexicansby the way: AoapitoRuedo and ;osJCarrasco. I remember those namesvery well becausein the caseof both of themI waswith the detectivesthat foundthem. Wefound them the sameday. I think there werefour or five peoplekjlled in that ho'ldup. That kind of violence

*1s fairly common.I think we hadmore interesting and "writable,'mur- ders in El Pasothan any city in the country,despite the small size of the city. It wasa violent community.I spokeof the Depression. Thetime camewhen cattle andcotton and copperwere all so far down that this p'lacewas on hard times long before the Depressionhit the .|923 UnitedStates. This happenedaround and 1924. Thecommunity was havinga real struggleto keepgoing. Incidenta'l'ly,while editor I started whatwas called later the...in Easternnewspapers, the Good FellowsClub or somethingof that kind. Thatwas collecting moneyfor poverty-strickenchildren at Christmastime.I'll tell you howI d'id it. 75

I went first of all to the towngamblers because I knewthey weremore generousthan anyoneelse.

F. Moreso than the bankers?

M: Yes, indeed. Thenthis is true aboutmost members of the gamblingfrater- nities. Theyare extraordinarilycharitable people when one approaChes themin the right way. E: It's true eventoday?

M: Yes, I think so. It's just part of their nature. We'dhad nothing of .1924 that kind in El Pasoand this wasa start. This wasaround that we got goingon that. I don't wantto maketoo manypersonal allusions.

F. No, that's interesting.

M: The sameis true of my starting the CopperLeague. Peoplesaid, "WhV did you start an outlawleague?" Well, it lookedto mefike a good thing to do. I wasimpressed by the fact that the ChicagoBlack

Sox, for instance,who had been kicked out of baseball,had never[been givena court trial; that is, they werenot legally guiltyJ They

hadnever beenfound guilty. Fromthat time on they weredamned and doomedmen. I thoughtthey oughtto be given a chanceto comeback. But the other considerationwas this: that this Southwestern territory wasreally in a state of despond;it neededsomething to cheer. This wastrue of the coppertowns. It wastrue of El Paso. It wastrue of Jufrez. lalecouldn't afford big leaguebaseball. Theonly waywe could havehigh-c1ass baseball was to go for the outlaws. So we went out and recruited them. As long as I wasin the Southwestthat leagueheld together. I foundin the courseof it that

the major leagueswere just as crookedafter the Black Soxleft as they werebefore. For example,they hada proscriptionagainst giving a contract to anybodywho played with outlaws. Yet we weresending as

manyplayers to the majorleagues sub rosa as any class AAball club. 76

Theyknew it. JudgeLandis would come down here...

E: "KennesawMountain" Landis would come down to El Paso? M: Yes, wouldcome down once a year to try to talk meout of the ieague...

breakingup the league. I'.d say, "Youshow me some other waythat Wecan get just as goodbaseball and I'll go for it." 0f course,he couldn't comeup wjth anything. Wehad repeatedconversations on the subiect.

[Uewas] a likeable old man--aconsiderable faker I thought. But when I leftrthe leaguefolded because there wasn'tany other personality that could hold it together,that's whatit amountedto. E: Youspeak very fondly of basebalI andyou havethroughout the interviews. I get the impressionthat baseballwas an extremelypopular sport in El Pasoback in thosedays. Is that true?

M: Verymuch so, Verymuch so--though we had trouble makingthe gradein

El Pasoas far as keepingthe teamgoing was concerned, much more than

they had in Fort Ba,yardwhere it wasgovernment backed, or in SantaRita- Hurleywhere it wascompany backed. Thesame was true of the Bisbee

teamand the Doug'lasteam. Theyhad money from corporations. When we really got into hard times and there wasno moneyin the treasury,

I'd iust take a canvasbag andmove through E1 Pasoand go to see the merchantsand say, "Theteam has got to havesome money," and I'd col- lect a few thousanddollars that wayto keepus going. The greatest contributor, onceagain, outsjdeof MauriceSchwartz of the Popular-- that manwas the greatest sportsmanI ever knewin El Paso--outsideof him I could dependon the gamblersto give memoney more than anyone el se. This wasduring hardtimes. Youthought that this wasa really good 'infl uenceon the communi ty. Everybodythought so down... 77

E: Everybodythought so.

M: Therewas no opposition.

E: Perhapswhen we continue this interview, General,we can talk about

those hard times here in El Paso.

M: If I can rememberenough to makeit worthwhile. E: Well, if not we'll go on to anothersubject. Thankyou, Genera'|. M: 0.K. 78

.|975.] [4th intervjewsessjon, July 9,

E: General,Vou have some recollections that you'd like to enlightenus on. lllouldyou...?

M: Well, someare of a personalsort just to straighten out a few things

with respect to myown career. I failed to say thus far that at the time that...right after I wentinto newspaperwork, I gaveup my commissions.I hadorganized...that is, I hadrecruited the National

GuardBattalion here in El Paso. I haddone it as a personaljob becausethe ex-serv'icepeople here wou'ldenlist if I askedthem to and they wouldn'tfollow anyoneelse. We11,I wasvery muchjunior in years and there wasno possibi'lity of my taking commandof the battalion. But I wasthen a First Lieutenant,both in the Reserveand in the National Guard. Right after I went into newspaperwork I resigned both commissionsbecause I haddecided that if I wereever going to

really perseverein military studies I hadto do it on myown. I was havingto write papersfor the WarDepartment on dri'11s,etc. that I had alreadydone as an officer. So I wasjust repeatingforms that I'd

gonethrough in a practical way. I knewmore than they weregiving me. I knewI waswasting my time. ThenI started build'ingmy military 1ibrary at that time. This wasin the late 20s? M: This wasin the early 20s. E: Early 20s.

M: Yes. Havinqgiven up mycommissions I enlisted as a private in the National Guardin the samebattalion that I had formed. Thereason I did that wasbecause I wantedto learn moreabout the military w'ith

respectto officer-manrelationships and I decidedI could learn more 79

by qoinqat the lowestrank possibleand watching officers perform. So I spent the next five years as a private. Peop'lelook-:at that

record and say, "hlell, this is sort of nutty. !.lhydid you do that?" As it turnedout, it was the mostvaluable thinq that ever happened to mebecause it waslarqely due to that experiencethat whenI got into Worldl,,lar II, I wasable to get enlisted mengoing a'long with me and I could take themaway from thejr commanderand they wouldtell me the absolutetruth wherethey wouldn'ttell it to their ownofficers. 'language, I spoketheir in other words. Youfollow me? Thenext point wasth'is: I did not explainthat while I wasmoving up fromreporter

to sports editor and then city editsr of the HeraldI wasalso taking on jobs as a Southwesterncorrespondent for the KansasCity Star and the ChicagoTribljne and the Seattlg Time:and the Los AnqelesTimes amongother papers. I wasgettinq qoodmoney out of that and also a

broadenedexperience. I think the thing that helpedme the mostwas

whenSlater decjdedthat I wasooing to be a front pagehumor columnist.

F. Humor?

M. Humorcolumnist for the newpaper that he started. I can't evenremember the paper, but it wasa morn'inqpaper to competewith the Times. It had a rather brief life--a coupleyears. I hada columnthere called the

"TomToiTt"and it wasthe first humorcolumn not only jn El Pasobut in the Southwest.As a consequenceof that, mycolumn...my humor was being quotedin the Literary Digestand Life and Judgewhich were two national humormagaz'ines, more than any other newspaperin the country. It wasn'tthat I wasthat gooda humorist. It wasjust a happenstance

that they wouldquote from the national presssectionally. Since I wasthe only humoristjn the Southwest,whereas there weremany of

them'in the Northeast,I wasgetting quotedabout three or four times BO

as often as any humoristelsewhere'in the countrythough some had it

all over me. This turnedout to be qreatly advantageousto mebecause whenI washired by the Detrgit NewsI washired as a humoristnot as

a sportswriter or anythingelse. tr. That's fasc'inating. l,lhatwere the topics for humorin the El Paso Southwestin the early twenties?

M: 0h, for heavensakes, I can't think of that now.Incidentally, I havemost of thosecolumns. But I wastalkinq of writing humorabout politics, foreign policy andabout prohibition. . . tr. 0h, you'd write on nationalissues?

M. 0n MawFerguson...0h yes, certainly. It wasthree hundredand s'ixty degreesas far as the subiect matter vvasconcerned.

F. That's interesting. Couldyou tell mewhat...now was it iust the appoint- mentto that job that madeyou start doinq it? Did you haveany interest

on your ownto write a humorcolumn?

M: I had started it on myown when I beganwriting a sports columnas sportseditor. I hada sportscolumn that initially wascalled "Sports

and Verse." Then,around I 923 Tad Dorqan cameto town and we went to Judreztoqether and we were having a beer

over there. Tad Dorqanwas the famouscartoonist of the HearstSyndi- cate. Hewas the author of SeeWhat the Boysin the BackRoom Will Have andthat k'indof thing. Whilewe were sittinq there at lunchhe said,

"Youwrite a qoodsports column but," he sajd, "nobodywill ever rememberthat name. Thatrs one of your di ffi culties. " i said , "l^jelI , that isn't myrea'l name." He said, "Whatis your name?"I said, "SamuelLyman Atwood Marshall." He said, "Whyare you using the name 'SamL. Marshall'?" I said, "BecauseI shortenedmy name when I went

in the Army as I fiqured that the tjme wouldcome when I'd haveto BI

put a lot of signatureson reports and I didn't want to go by my real monikerand so I shortenedit to 'SamL. Marshall.' Sincethat wasmy

Armyname I stuck with it." He said, "LookrVOU've got the best poss'ib1e

namefor a sportswriter. SLA--'SLAM'--i t fi ts. [Stam Marshal I . ] you start tomorrowgoing by SLAand never changeit. Just stay with those initials." This wasone of the best piecesof adviceI ever qot in mv I ife. I did it immediately. Hewas dea,o right aboutit. E: Whatyear wasthis, whenyou started usinqSLA?

M: I think it wasaround 1924. [Actually, it was1g?3.) E: It servedyou we11?

M: Yes. Andthe Armyused it becausethe Armyby that time knewme as "SLAM"Marshall and therefore in WorldWar II I waspermitted to use my initials, whereasit's a requlationrequirement that you useyour

full name. But I woulduse "S.1.A."on ordersbecause a goodmany of the guyswho had been Majors and Captainsat Fort Bliss wereby this time Generals;and when I wasmovinq overseas,then it wasimportant

that they knewthat I wascominq, because they werenot only acquain- tancesbut friends, andthey wouldhelp meout. It cameout in

cabalese[cable language] "Sugar Love Able" Marshall,which I likecl. I told you aboutthe resiqninqof mycornmissions, which was collateral with mydecision to build up mymi'litary library for myprivate studies, and that continuedto build throuqhthe years here. By the time I .l,000 left El PasoI think it wassomething'like volumes.l,lle did not go into the natureof MexicanAmerican relations in this discussion the other day, but I think there js somethinoimportant here. It was just aboutthe time that the Revindicat'ionRevolution--I don't know whetheryou're familiar with that term.

No, I'm not. B2

M: Thatwas what we called the 0bregJn-CutlesRevolution. And that was

whatthey called it--the RevindicationRevolution. Just aboutthat

time, that revolutionbegan to get things settled in Mexico[and] an era of qoodfeeling betweenEl Pasoand Ju/rez beganto develop. This wasa very pronouncedchange during the'20s. This occurred,I would say, not acrossthe board, but mainly throuqhinterchanges between the middleclass in Jufrez and El Paso. It wasvery cornmonfor El Paso groupsto go over to Ju{rezat that time--muchmore so than now, inci- denta11y. For exampl.e,at the time that I wassports editor in El Paso andcity ed'itorof the El PasgHerald,we would customarily close up the paperabout 4:30 in the afternoonand then we wouldall go to Ju{rez

togeth_erto havea goodtime. Wewould fight like cats and dogson

the paper--whilewe were gettinq out the paper--arguingand so forth, but we hadjust a close basis of friendshipthat we alwayswanted a

social time afterwards. so, reqular visits to Ju{rezwere part of the business. whenwe would throw our staff parties aboutonce a month, whichwere beer busts, we wouldgo to PeaceGrove in Ju/rez for the parties. But this developedV€plr very quickly during the mid-l9Z0s, and that beqanto chanqethings alongour part of the border. I referred to it as the "Era of GoodFeeling" because it wasa markedchange jn across-the-borderrel at'ionships.

E: After so manyyears of abrasiondurinq the Revolution. M: Yes.

F. Yourefemed to PeaceGrove. Preciselywhere was that located? M: That's locatedout alonqthe Rio Grand€roh the Ju{rez side, about 3/4 of a mile or less this side of the El PasoSmelter. I'm surprised you don't knowabout it. B3

F. We1'|,I think I did. For the benefit of the ljsteners I wantedto haveyou talk aboutthat. Doyou knowwhy it wascalled "PeaceGrove," by the way?

M: Yes. That's whereTaft met Profirio Oilz shortly beforethe Revolution brokeout.

F. That's jnteresting. Whatwas there":aboutJuirez that attracted so many El Pasoans?Were the facilit'ies better? Wasthe atmospherebetter? Howcome El Pasoitself didn't havemeeting places where everybody could go?

M. For one thing, the beer wasextremely qood and it wasserved nicely. At severalof the bars they;keptaluminum muqs in the refriqerators

and they becamejced, and the beer wouldbe servedin these iced mugs. But there werebetter cafe( there; the food wassuperior and the drinks

weregood and the hospitafity wasgreater. '20s? E: Howwas the booz'ingin [El Paso]in the M: l,rlell,the borderwas pretty damnwide openas far as bootleggingis concerned. Everyman had his favorite bootleggerand you could get

liquor on this side at maybe$.|.50 or $2.00more than it cost in Jua'rez. tr. Did the paperhave a personalbootleqger?

M: No, no, Slater wasa prohibitionist. [Laughter] No, nothing I ike thatl 'f E: GeneralMarshal I , Iou madethe commentjust a secondago that iquor wasabout $.l.00 to $.|.50cheaper in Juirez than it wasover here. M: I'd say jt wouldaverage around $Z.OO a bottle morewhen it wasboot- leggedon this side, but it wouldbe the sameliquor. Wedidn't get badbooze"in El Pasolike mostcities wereafflicted with.

E: Did anyoneever try to smugglethis liquor backfrom Juf,rezover here? l,.Iasit a commonpractice? 84

M: 0h, yes. That's howit cameabout. Twoof my friends from El Paso

High School, whohad goneinto aviation in WorldhJar II' got into

flying aqain and were workinqas bootleqgersflying liquor across the

border. I'd prefer not to namethem. E: That's quite al1 right. I take it it wasa rather frujtful friendship in that case. M: Right, right. But I wasnot oneof their customers. E: Youweren't? M: No. E: I haveinterviewed other peoplehere in the El Pasoarea whoare your ageor perhapsa little younger. Their recollectionsare that during

the '20s, the'30s andthe '40s, Jvirez hadsort of a cosmopolitanair

in that peoplewere beginning to travel here from all over the country; andthey'd go andlive it up over in CiudadJuf,rez. That's probabiy moretrue of the '30s andthe'40s, I qather. Is that correct? What's your impressionof the '20s?

M: Yes, that's true. Therewas a constanttraffic throughhere, but it wasnot just tourists. Yousee, El Pasohas had, throughoutits history, a uniqueadvantage. Whenthe railroads werethe meansof trans- portationacross the country--whenautomobiles, for jnstance,couldn't makeany considerablejourney here in the Southwest--thiswas a stopping point for operacompanies and for theater groupsand so on, and also a

stoppingpoint for peoplethat wantedto breaka rai'lwayjourney between the Eastand the WestCoast. This hadquite an influenceon the culture of the city. Wewould get, for instance, the Chicago0pera Company-- an attraction that a city of this size wasnot ent'itled to; but it

wasiust a convenientbreak. We'dget the Mexican[Mexico City] Tipica Orchestraand the MexjcanArmy Mi'litary Band,and so on. All thosekinds of B5

attractions cameto El Paso. TheSan Carlo Operawould come here yearly. F. Doyou think all of these different elementsmay have had a composite

effect on the culture of this city? [Doyou think that] somehowthe level of culture has beenraised over the years becauseof it?

M: Noquestion about it. Thepromoter in thosedays was Granv'ille Johnson. Granvillehappened to be a close friend of m'ine. I talked aboutwriting

the publicity forpational tours ofl tfre Mexicanfiiica Orchestra. I did it at his request. Whenevera star wouldcome to town,he wouldput meon to themimmediately. I rememberEmilita Galli-Curci, whowas the great coloraturaof the Metropolitan,coming to El Pasowith her husband, HerbertSamuels. I went to interview her at the Del Norte. Sheblasted

GrandOpera. [She]said it wasjust biliboard, that it wasnot art, it wasof no consequencewhatsoever. This madea national story. Associated Pressp'icked'it up. I did not knowat that time that shewas suffering w'ith goiter and knewthat her career wasthrough, and that she wasrather

embittered. 0n other occasionsTito Schipacame to town, and he wasat

the Del Norte. i wentover to interviewhim. He spentthe first 40 minutes

talk'ingabout his recent "amours"and describing his bedroomaffairs in utmostdetail, in the mostvulgar way I've ever heardany man perform. Suddenlythe door to the next roomopened and a redheaded[viragdcamein

with an umbrellaand started beatingthe hell out of him. It washis wifel It wasone of the funniestscenes I've ever witnessed. I couldn't

write it. flaughter] E: Youcouldn't? Haveyou ever thoughtabout doing it in the years since then?

M: Well, Padereweskicame to townon his last trip. Hehad a private car with a grandpiano in it. Hehad given no interviewsanywhere 86

in the UnitedStates. This washis last grandtour. Theguy who had

beenmy political manaserjn high school,Elliot Chess,hhd been an

ace with the Royal Air Force and then gone on to be an ace in the

ffuskiuzcoltSquadron in Poland'swar with Russia. So, he wasan old friend of Paddv'i, as he called him. Hetook medown to the train, and Paderewskithrew his armsaround him andembraced him and kissed him--

"Cheski"he called Chess. lllehad a private concertthere for aboutan hourwith him p'layingfor on.lythe two of us. That's wonderful. Youmentioned that durinq the teensPavolva had comethrough here, didn't she?

No, this wasin the '20s. This wasaround '22. Couldyou tell meabout that?

I think that washer last appearancehere.

Did she actually give a performancehere?

Yes. Theauditorium was in El PasoHigh Schoo'l--the majn auditorjum there. Slater wasan old friend of hers and he took meout to supper with her, just becauseI hadrecently squelcheda Iibel casefor him.

I met her and spent the ear'ly part of an eveningwith her, and then we went to the performance. E: Did peoplein El Pasogenerally take advantageof theseopportunities? M: Yes, they werewell attendeda'lways. That kind of thing wouldbe a sell-out. In the sports field it wasthe samething, mainlynhow- ever, becauseof Ju{rez. ldewould qet principa'l figures, for instance, in the box'ingworld. A goodmany of themreached the end of the trail right here jn El Paso. For example,Australian Bi1ly Smithowho was a rather famousmiddleweight, became a Sergeantof Detectiveson the

police force. TommyBurns of Pueblo,oneof the "whitehopes" in 87

JackJohnson's day, becamea bumin El Paso. Hewas a garbagecollector at one time, and then he movedon. Jack Johnsonreached the end of the trail here in a fight in Ju{rezaga'inst Bob Lawson, who at that time wasthe Negrolight heavyweightchamp'ion. Jack wason the comebacktrai'l , and they hada fight there whichended in the fifth roundwith Lawson knockingout Johnsonwith a blowto the solar plexus;and Johnson claimedfoul. It wasobviously a fair blow. I wasthe timekeeperat that fight andwas right underthe punchand sawit very c1eanly. And Cip Payo,who was our mostfamous referee, called the thing correctly. This wason a Sundayafternoon. Johnsoncame to myoffice afterwards--

I waswriting the story--andsaid, "Mr. MarshalloI will give you $500 if you w'i11put it on the AssociatedPress wire that you sawthat that blowwas foul." AndI sajd, "Mr. Johnson,I can't do that. It wasn't foul, and, further, I don't take that kind of money." Hesaid, "We11,

I didn't supposeyou did, but I think you knowthat a ooodmany people in your businessdo take it." I said, "Yes,I'm awareof that." I said, "Sinceyou're here, I'd like to discussthe Havanafight with Willard. Wasthat on the level?" Wediscussed it for abouthalf an hour. I think this is the on'lytime that he cameclean on whathad happened.His explanationwas that the largest part of the moneythat they weregoing to get from that fight y6s for the motionpicture rights. Hg had agreedwith the motionpicture peopleto carit lrl'illafdat least eight rounds, He said he didn't realize whatthe effect of the sun in Cubawas going to be on him, and after the ninth roundhe started in to try to knockWillard out; andhis strengthwas gone. Heknew that he no lonqer had the wa1lpp. It wasseveral roundsafter that that he motionedto his wife to qet out of the ring becausehe knewthat l,rlillard 88

wasgoing to knockhim out, that he couldn't take it anymore- It was becausehe hadmotioned to his wife to get out, and sheleft, that people thoughtthe fight wasa frame-up. I think that's the true story of the fight. Now,I mentioneda minuteago about this "era of goodfeeling" that developed'inthe,120s. This wasa reciprocity betweenthe middleclass peoplehere and in Ju{rez. It djdn't workat the lower levels, and the hostility on the Mexicanside wouldstill be very pronouncedin sportingevents. Someof the scenesthere werereally fright- ful; for instance,the night that Tiger Flowersfought Gorilla Jones. Gorilla Joneswas a great favorite alongthe border. Hewas a Blackand

I think he camefrom a military campin Douglas.Tiger Flowershad never fought before--neverhad any kind of a fight. He wasjust a "rubber" in l'Ialt Miller's campin Georgia. In other words,he took care of fighters. The fighter we signedto go in that event suddenlybe- camei11, andTiger Flowerswas sent out as a substitutel he wasan absoluteunknown. Thjs wasthe beginn'ingof his rise to the middleweight championship.By the time the eiqhth and ninth roundcame--the Mexicans hadbet heavily on Gorilla Jones=-itbecame apparent that he wasgoing to be knockedeuf,, dndbeer bottles started flying. Theycame in shbwers.

Theworst kind of a riotous scenetook p1ace. Themayor and the chief of police of Juirez hadbet somethinglike $5,000. JackVowell was holdingstakes. Themayor yelled at the chief of police, "Getvowell and get Marshajl." He thoughtI had someof the money,and we wereboth thrownin the hoosegowover there. Jackwas a very badly worried man becausehere he wasout in the opencompound with numerouscriminalsn and

$5,000on him. All the mayorhad meant was to get hold of him and protect him, not throwhim in jai1, andthe police misunderstoodit. This same 89

kind of thjng happenedin the summerof 1927,just before I left here.

Aguilar, whowas the middleweightchamp'ion of Mexico'was fighting a

B'lackfrom Detroit by the nameof WhiteyBlack. Therewas a great deal of betting by the Mexicanson Aguilar. Alongabout the sjxth round,it

wasobvious that Aguilar wasgoing to be beaten;and beer bottles started flying. I rememberI wasacting as timekeeperthat fjght, and I got up

andye'l1ed, "Who the hell threw that bottle?" Thensuddenly a shower of bottles cameat me. I got downunder the ring. The fjght went on tjll the endof the tenth round,and Aguilar was iust a liloodymess. He

had scarce:ly laid a glove on Black. Cip Payowent to the two of them as the fiqht ended,and raised both hands,call'ing it a draw. Thering waslittered with beer bottles by that timeo and he ran over to meand

he said, "S1am,put it in the papertomomow morning that Mrs.Payo raised her children to be gamebut not to be foo'lish." flaughter]

Well, that wasthe time whenI wrote "Nomore fights in Jua'rez;'We'Ve got to stop th'is," becauseit couldhave led on to a really bloodyin- ci dent.

F. This ent'irearea during the'20s seemsto havebeen, in a different way,almost as exciting as it wasduring the teens.

M. 0h, it wasvery exciting, very exciting. Therewas no bullfighting at that time in Juirez. Therewas brjefly in the early'20s. I remember Sid Frankl'in,theArnerican bullfighter, showedup oneday at my offjce. He wasto appearin Juirez on Sunday. I wasvery busyand I

sajd, "Takea seat," andhe sajd, "Youdon't understand.I'm Sid Frank- lin, the Americanbullfighter." AndI said, "Well, in that case,take two seats," and I kept on with mywork. But it was, I think, [the most

exciting period] I ever knewin myl'ife--the'20s in El Paso. 90

'20s E: The throughoutthe rest of the country sawthe adventof machine

gunsand fast cars and Al caponetypes. wasthere ever anythingapproxi- matingthat kind of thing here in El Paso? M: No.

E: Noorganized crime?

M: No, no organ'izedcrime. fTherewas] a great deal of use of marijuana. Slater hadme write a series on marijuanato try to get the drug out- lawed. I spenta monthstudying the drugand its effect on criminals in El Paso. I smokedit onceto seewhat the effects were. All it did wasgive mea headache,so I nevertried it agajnbecause I don't havea lot of headachesordinarily. I don't think I've hadmore than one or two in my life, all from hangovers.But I went at the study rather thoroughly,andshortly after that Texaslegislature wrotea statute outlawingthe use of marijuana.

E: It wasan extremelystrong statute, wasn't it?

M: I don't recall that, but Texaswas the first state to ouilawit. ThenI

wentto Michigan,and the editor of the Detroit NewsfGeorge Mi11er] asked meto do the samething up there, whichI did; andit wasoutlawed'in

Michigan. A federal statute followedsome years later, but I can't repeat the history of it becausethat wasmy only connectionwith it.

Yousay you studiedthe useof marijuanahere in El Paso. Whatelements of society smokedit?

M: Mainlythe criminal element. 0utsideof that, no onethat I knewof. E: It wasn't smokedfor pleasureby youngh'igh school kids?

M: I knewof no caseswhatsoeverof that. Neverheard of it. E: Wasthere a great approbriumattachedto it? Onewould suppose so-- to the smokingof marijuana. 9l

M: As a matterof facto it wasas little knownto the populationgenerally

hereas wasLSD in the mfddle50s in the UnitedStates. It hadn't appearedin the marketplacesanywhere. It wasknown mainly to the

criminal elementand we foundralmostwithout exception, that the people that werein jail weremarijuana smokers; and someof themwere hard drug users. But the use of drugswas very uncommonother than that. E: Did mostlyMexican criminals smoke marijuana? M: Mostly,yes. E: Did you ever find out why?

M: I think it wassimply because they knewthe sourcesof it. Theyknew howto get it.

E: Did you ever find out wheretheir sourceswere--[in] whatpart of Mexico it wasgrown? M: Yes, I foundout. But, again, I can't tell you becausethat's escaped

mymemory. This wasjust an incident in mylife.

E: But you did.write someof this up in the paper? M: 0h yes.

E: So it wouldbe in the old files if wewanted to searchfor it? M: Yes.

E: General,we've been talkinq aboutcertain phenomenain El Pasoamongst the criminal element. Wealso mentionedprostitution during the teens. lrlasthere any markedchange in howmuch prostitution there wasor the areaswhere it existed in the '20s? M: 0h yes. Yes, indeed. E: Whatwere those changes?

M: The"red light" district in El Pasowas cleaned out during the War--that is, UtahStreet and the part of it that wason SantaFe Street. It was 92

just cleanedout, closedup.

E: whv? M: I guessbecause the Armyinsisted on it. I don't know. I wasn'there;

I wasoverseas. Whathappened thereafter wasthat there wasprostitu- tion in separatehouses. Thehotels in the southernpart of the city, southof SanAntonio Street, werewhorehouses and they operatedmore or less openly. Thepolice madeno attemptto clean themout. This was well known. It waslike gambling. It continuednbut on an entirely different basis. I had to knowa goodmany of the madamsbecause they weresources of newsand so-on. I rememberone experience. At the

time that Hardingd'ied we wereal1 very muchimpressed at the Hgrg.tl-- with the deathof a President. He died in the afternoon,and jt took

us until 5:00 or 6:00 in the eveningto get out the Extra abouthis death. It wasa very solemnoccasion to us. Wewere working 1ate, and whenwe

got throughI said, "Let's go on over to Ju{rezand get a drink at the Central." So we went to Juirez andwe movedinto the cafiside of the

bar insteadof going into the saloonproper. Therewas an El Pasomadam fromSouth Stanton Street[n the first booth]Her namewas Bi11y tnlilson. As I came

in she said, "What'swrong with you, Marshall? Youlook so solemn faced." I said, "Bi11y,didn't you knowthe Presidentof the United Statesdied this afternoon?" Shesaid, "Well, the hell with that old son-of-a-b'itch.He's no better than I am." I thoughtit wasterrible at the time, but a little later I realizedshe had his numberbefore

anybodyelse did. [Laughter] Shewas a very perceptivewoman. Did you knowany other madamshere jn El Paso? Doyou recall any names? 93

M: BessMahler, Jeanie Harmon; and that's aboutit. I can't recall many names-

E: Werethey big madams--bignames in the trade?

M: 0h no. I wouldn't say that any of themcompared with these characters that havesince appearedin booksabout the BarbaryCoast, New 0rleans. No, noneof themhad that degreeof fame. Theydidn't pile up dough. But I do

recall one other incident in Jua/rez. Inlespoke of Arnulfo Gdmezthe other day.

F. Yes. (lnJhofor the benefit of the listeners wasa General.)

M: I hadbeen in the Judrezjail twice, andthis wasthe other occasion. hle

had a girlfriend, an American,whose name I do not remember.We always

called her "the womanin gray" becauseshe alwayswore gray c'lothing. Shewas an habitue'of the Central Cafel I sawher there one afternoon.

I had gonein by myself, and I wentover to talk to her; and the next thing I knewa couplepolicemen had me and were takinq meto jail. Ar-

nulfo G{mezhad said that no one lvasever to bother his woman.As soon as he foundout that he'd hadme thrown in jail becauseI wastalking to

her, he cameover and apologizedand was very, very sorry, etc., etc. E: Did you ever get to be friends with Gomez? M: No, there wasno basis for friendship. E: Did you talk to him on severaloccasions, a few occasions...? M: 0h, a numberof occasions. I d'idn't like him. E: Whatdo you recall abouthim? M: Well, in the first p1ace,I thoughthe wasan ignoramus.He was also a badsoldier. I mean,he didn't understnadmilitary affairs very well. I hadsome discussions with himalong military lines, andthat's howI happenedto d'iscoverthat. I djsliked his personality;he wastoo damnedarrogant, too self-important. 94

E; General,we're talking about'life on the border. Aboutwhat year did

you finally decide to leave El Paso?

M: Juneof 1927. E: Whatdid you do uponleaving E1 Paso?

M: Well, I had receivedoffers from the Detroit Newsto comeup there as

a humorcolumnist, and I had rece'ivedoffers from the [Los Angeles] Examinerto comeout there as a reporter. The offer from the Examiner wastwice that of the News,and I took the Newsbecause I wouldn't work for RandolphHearst under any conditions.

E: Did you ever meetWilliam Randolph Hearst? M: No, no. I only hadone collision with him. At the time he died, Time

Magazinehad sent a correspondentout [to see me], PeteBraestrup. They weregoing to do a cover story on meunder the headingof "ThePress. " Petewas out there for a weekand they had a photographerout getting all

kinds of pictures. Just [36hours before]they were to run the story on me, hlilliam RandolphHearst died and he got the cover! [Laughter] That was myonly experiencewith him. I felt like 0liver Hereford. l,'lhenhe was

offered a job by Hearsthe wired [that] the only thing in whichhe would join Hearstwas a suicide pact! I felt the sameway about him. But at any rate, mydisagreement finally, with Slater, cameout of the Thomason/ Daviscampaign. I think I told you that. At that time, we ownedthe Timesalso; I wasworking as City Editor and Columnistof the Heraldand I wasworking as SportsEditor columnistand Editorial wrjter of the Times. I hadfour jobs,'andactually it took three mento replaceme whenI left. But I wasworking 18 hoursa day and I knewI couldn't keepthat up indefinitely, so I wasglad to get out of here. I made

the decision to leave in Juneand I presentedmy resignation effective in 90 days. I actually left'in September.I remember,two daysbefore 95

I left, Slater called mein. Hewas leaving on a trip, and I told

him I wascoming in to take leaveof him. He said, "Areyou certain you will not changeyour mind?"and I said, "No,my mind is madeup."

He said, "Well, if you wouldstay oneof course:!0u knowthe p'laceis open. I realize you are the only personon this paperwho has rea1ly leveledwith meon all occasions." I wouldfight with him, you see, andthe otherswouldn't. They'dsimply take his orders. E: Washe sorry to seeyou go, then? M: Well, apparentlyhe was. I wouldvisit himwhen I'd comeback to El Paso,but I thoughthe'd pretty well lost his bearings--thathe was 'longer no accuteabout business affairs or aboutpo'litical affairs. I

thoughtthat the paperwas on its wayout--that it wasfail ing under him. I didn't wantto be held responsiblefor that failure. Hewould

do very, very stupid things. So, I sawno future here. Also, I had concludedthat I had goneas far as I could ever go in the Southwest.

My'incomewas actually $.I.|00a monthat the time I left El Paso,which wasbig moneyin 1927. I had, in addition to these retainers from

Easternpapers, my salary. I wasgetting a salary from a copperleague, you see, so I waswell fixed. AndI hadmade a stake. I think I'm repeatinghere, now. By that time I hadmoney in the bank. I had gone

throughthree bankfailures, but I'd learneda little somethingfrom each oneof them. So, I knewit wastime to moveon. I could afford to do

it financially and I couldn't afford to stay here--thatrs whatit amountedto. I loved the city--a'lwayshave loved it. But it wasno longer any place for me. Thankyou, General. Perhapsin the near future we could interviewyou with regard to whatyou did after you left El Paso. 0K. 96

[sth interviewsession, July ll,.|975]

E: General,in the last sessionwe had, we talked aboutyour leaving El Pasoand leaving the El PasoHelald..and going on to greenerpastures. l,lhatdid you do after you left El Paso?

M: I went to the Detroit Ngwsas a humorist. For about six monthsI had beendoing a humorcol umn for themdown here in addition to myother

work. I wasgetting $50or $.|00a weekfor it. Theywanted it just to see if they wantedme. That wasrunning in the Detroit Newsbefore I ever got up there. But on the day that I met the Editor in Chief of the Dgtroit News,the day after I arrived in Detroit--it was the 30th

of September--wehad a lengthyconversation in whichhe askedme what I

wroteoutside of humor. I said, "I can write anythingon the newspaper."

I said, "f'm a very goodSports Writer, I knowthat." He said, "You

just forget aboutsports; that's no meansto an end." He said, "If you wanttoo do it oncein a whi1e,but dcin'tpursue it. Not oneman in a thousandgets anywherewriting sports." We11,I said, "Apartfrom that I can do any job on a newspaper--Ican do editorials, or write society,

or do anything." Andhe said, "Al1 right. That's whatwe're goingto haveyou do. Yourll be rated hereas an editorial writer. Besides

your humorcolumn we'll expecteditorials fromyou, but you can havethe run of the paper. Youcan write for any departmentyou want to. We don't haveanybody in the newspaperthat can do that kind of thing. You

can go as far as you wantto go." Thenhe continued--hesaid, "I want you to buy a househere and settle down. I recommendyou look out in the Redfordarea--that's a pretty goodresidence area and I think you'11

be happythere." I said, "Mr. Miller, I amnot goingto do that." He 97

said, rrlnlhynot?" I said, "Becauseanytime I buy a househere and settle downI'm fixed with this newspaper;and I don't ever wanta

newspaperto haveme at its mercy. Anytimethat I'm not makingwhat I

think I shouldearn here, I'll quit. I won't ask for a raise, because

anytimethat I'm not satisfyingyou with mywork I knowyou'11 let me go. So that's fair enoughon both sides. That's the wayI prefer to

haveit." Andhe said, "Somethingtells meyou're goingto go a long way in newspaperwork." He put meout on the street for 30 days to learn the city, giving mevarious assignments dealing with the morewell-known

charactersin Detroit anddrumming up stories. ThenI cameback [o the newssanctum]and from that time on I wassituated with the so-called brains of the papers--theeditorial writers andthe assistanteditors. That's whereI remainedlargely duringthe years until WorldWar II,

thoughI continuedto write for sports and write for Sundaymagazine and write for various departments.There was one Sundaywhen I had eleven

articles in elevendifferent departmentsof the paper. [ff,ut wasmy top. I wasdescribed as "TheNews Roustabout.'t tr. Precise'lywhat year wasthis?

M: Starting the 30th of September,1927.

E: I assumeDetroit wasa fairly excit'ingtown, seeingas howChicago certainly wasan exciting townat that time. Whatare your recollections aboutthe streets of Detroit, M'ichigan,at that time? Whatwas going on?

0f course,it wasa bordercity, andbootlegging was a mainindustry there. ThePurple Gang was the well-knowncrowd of hoodlumsin Detroit. Theywere as notoriousin their time as wasAl Capone'sgang in Chicago. So, it wasa very roughcommunity in that sense. Miller wrote mebefore

I wentup there. Hesaid, "You'regoing to be disappointedin this city. You'll find that it's not a city. It's not organicat all. It's like a miningcamp. It has no direction. Thecommunity has no real leadership. 98

Theheads of the motor industry are moreinterested in NewYork and

NewYork society than they are fn Detroit. They're like the lumber baronswere in their time--theydidn't care aboutthe city either. And so the c'ity goesalong prett! muchleaderless.rr I foundout it vvgs that way. I hadtold Mr. Miller aboutmy interest in Mexicoin our injtial conversation.He said, "You'll be givenan opportunityto pur- sue it. Youcan go to Mexicoonce a year for two or three monthsiust to roamthe Republicand dig up stories." That, of course,vvas a rare opportunitybecause the Detrgit Newsdid not go in for foreign corres- pondenceto any'large extent. Theyhad oneman in London,and that was aboutall. But that kept mein contactnot only with Mexico,but with the Southwestduring the years that I wasworking with the paper. I hadhad, as I said, unusualsuccess here in El Paso. It continuedthat wayin Detroit. I wasmoving right fromthe beginningin rather prominent circles in the comrnunity,but for other reasonsthat gaveme influence in the Southwest. Onceagain I waswith horsesup there. Detroit had polo, and it wasa great huntingcommunity. fThere were] several very prominenthunt'ing and riding clubs in the city. ImmediatelyI became affiliated with themand wasshortly judging horse showsthere; and by the time I wasthere the secondyear I waspresident of the Polo Assocja- tion andwas running its affairs. I wasdoing it becauseI loved it"and it wasan avocationalpursuit with me. This, I thjnk, hadas muchto do with myconnections as anythinge1se, because the presidentsof the motorcompanies and so on weremembers of the hunt clubs. I got to know themvery weil personally, like C. E. l,rlilsonwho later becameSecretary of Defensefor the UnitedStates. Wewere on the samehorse showboard for aboutsix years in Detroit.

Wasthis "MotorCharley"? 99

'1940, M: Yes-- "EngineCharley." Interestinglyenough, I recall that jn

whenGeneral Motors had its exhibit of what it wasmaking for the war

effort, I wentto it and I ran into "EngineCharley." Hesuggested that we havedinner togetherat the RecessClub, which was in the Fisher

Buildingacross from the GeneralMotors Building in Detroit. Wesat there with one of their menwho I did not knowat the time, but he was headof

GeneralMotors Public Relations. Charleysaid to me, "Slam,I wantyou to talk to meas extensivelyas you can on the military, becauseI knsw absolutelynothing about the military; and I'll talk to you freely about

GeneralMotors. Youask meany questions that you wish." Well, we started, and whenhe got talking on GeneralMotors this other gentleman

would interrupt and say, "l^lelI now,Mr. WiI son, I don't think you should say that. Here'sthe wayI'd put it." Finally I said, "Whois this gentleman?" Hesaid, "Well, he's headof our PublicRelations and I haveto

go alongwith him." But, the reasonI makethe point is [that] within a few years this manwas Secretary of Defensefor the UnitedStates, and he hadtold mein private that he knewabsolutely nothing about mi'litary

affairs. As a matter of fact, at the time he wasappointed Secretary of Defense,I wasflying in a p'lanewith oneof the Vice-Presidents

of GeneralMotors, Bill Boyer,to Cleveland,to see their liqht tank productiondown there. Themessage came over a radio that C. E. Wilson

had beenappointed as Secretaryof Defense. Boyersaid to me, "Well, that mustbe C. E. Wflsonof GeneralElectric. It can't be 'Engine Charley'because he doesn'tknow anything about the military." Andhis courseas Secretaryof Defensegenerally well provedthat he didn't knowanything about the military.

E: Whydo you say that precise'ly? Couldyou give us someoutstanding examples of whatyou thoughtwere his deficiencjes? 100

M: [He had] no senseof organizationwhatsoever. I wason the Special Opera- tions Commissionof the Departmentof Defenseduring the time that he was

Secretaryr dnd we spent three years trying to find out who cou'ld make a

decisionin the Defenseestablishment; and we neverwere able to solve the prob'lem. Heover-elaborated the organization;he hadcontempt for all millitary people;h0 talked to Generalsas if they werescrubs. He'd say, "GetBradley up herei" or "Getso-and-so up here," as if he weretalking abouta servant. He neverunderstood that the military haddignity that neededto be respected.

E: Hewasn't one of your favorite studentson military affairs, then?

M: No. Hecertainly wasn't. lTherewas] onething that did happento mefor the worsewhen I went,toDetroit. Uptill the time I left El PasoI

wasassociating with individua'lslike TemyAllen andLew Hershey, who later

becamehead of the draft; and JohnLucas, who became a CorpsCommander; and Harry Chamberlain;and HapGay, who later becamePatton's Chief of Staff, andso on. Out of this associationI wasalso getting an educationin the military. I refer particularly to a First Sergeantof F..Troopof

the 7th Cavalry,a mannamed Ed Carey,whowas an old-timer. I learned

morefrom Ed, I think, than from any of the professorsthat I ever had aboutwhat the Armywas like. But, as soonas I went to Detroit those

contactsdropped off, and up there I knewonly Iron Mike0,Daniel who wasthen a l4ajorand later becamea ThreeStar General,and was a very goodfriend of mineat the time. I kept contactwith C. P. Summerall, formerChief of Staff. But mymilitary circle rltasV€Flr very limited indeedup there. So I did practically no military writing for the Detroit Newsexcept as I wouldwrite aboutrevolutions and work as a war comespondent,which is an ent'irelydifferent thing than beinga miI 'itary cri ti c. t0l

E: Youmentioned C. E. t,nlilson.What other prominentmembers of Detroit

societydid you conversewith during that time?

M: I can't rememberany that I didnrt knoworeally.

E: Youknew just aboutevery prominentmember of soc'iety? M: That's correct. For instance, Frankl4urphy, who later became a SupremeCourt Justice, wasa very close friend of m'ine. I sawhim throughthe years whenhe wasmoving from Judgeup to Mayorof the city, and Governorof the state, and finally Governor Generalin the Philippines,and then SupremeCourt Justice. I havemany letters from him in my scrapbooks.I recall at the time

that he wasrunning for hjs secondterm for Governor. The Derno-

cratic Committeeof the state cameto meand told methat they'had

tried to get hfmto changehis mindon a certain issue--andI don't rememberwhat the issue wasnow. He wasadamant. He said,

"I'm qoingto take that position and I cannotchange it. That's the waymy conscience tells meto go." Andthey said, "Youhave moreinfluence with him than wedo. lnlill you write himand tell him that you think he shouldchanse his position?" l,rlhichI did,

andhe wroteme sayinq, "If I've got to be defeatedon this issue, then Mjchiganought to havea newGovernor, because that's the wayI feel. I haveno qualmsabout my position at all. I'm ready to take defeat if I'm wrongon it." Hewas that wayall the way through. Lrlhenhe wasMayor, for instance,again myeditor told methat he wantedme to talk to Murphyto get him to qo for the AppointiveJudiciary as againstthe ElectiveJudiciary. Hesaido

"Tell Murphythat if he will do that wewill supporthim." I wentto himand he said, "Sam,I can't do it. I don't believein 102

it. That's not the democraticway. Further than that, look at the FederalBench. You'll find iust as manycorrupt judgesin the FederalJudiciary as you'1.lfind jn the Elective Judiciary. Tell Mr. Miller that I'm sorry that I don't havehis support,but I wouldn'tchange for that reason." Then,when he wasdefeated for GovernorI wrote him again to expressmy regret at his defeatand he said, "I'm not chagrinedabout it at all. I shouldbe defeatedif the peoplewant this other man--then0K." I think it wasFitzgerald, but I'm not surewho it wasnow. And he said, "There'sonly onejob that I knowthat I'm supremely quafified for, andthat's AttorneyGeneral of the UnitedStates, but

I will neverqet jt." Well, just a few weeksafter that he was appointedAttorney General of the UnitedStates and he provedto be correct. Hewas a first-class AttorneyGenera'|. Then when he wasnamed to the SupremeCourt I again wrote him "Congratulations" andhe wroteback and said, "I get no real feeling aboutth'is at all. I'm not qualified to be a SupremeCourt Justice. I wasnamed to the Courtsimply because I'm a Catholicand that's onereason that I don't feel jt's muchof an honor." Hewas very strangethat way. WhenI cameout of Mexicothe last time, JosephusDaniels told meto tell Murphythat if he ever ran for Presidenthe'd give him full supportand work for him jn the South,because he said that Murphywas the only genuineJeffersonian of our time. I wrote that to Frankand he wroteback and said, "Youtell Mr. Danielsthat I wouldunder no circumstancesrun for the Pres'idencyof the United Statesbecause I'm not qualified to be Presidentof the United .|03

States." Hewas a strangeperson in manyways. He had absolute

integrity, but he wassuspected up there of befnga homo. That wasn't it at all. He lovedto squire the women,but he'd nevermake love to

them. And I happento knowwhat the situation wasbecause for months, while he wasGovernor, he wasbeing taken care of by my friend Dr. RaymondW. Waggonerof the University of Michiganwho was study'ing

him psychiatrically. Raytold mein private, "This manhas got the largest 0edipuscomplex of any individual I haveever run into. If he shouldmeet a womanpnd cometo love he{ tfrat wasl'ike his motherhe wouldprobably be very happilymamied." E: Supremelyinteresting.

M: Brucker,who later becameSecretary of the Army,vvas a friend of mine

from the word "go" up there. This waswhile he was [Michigan]Attorney General. Thefunny part of it wasthat while I wason the T_attler,the high schoolpaper at El PasoHigh, I hadinterviewed him when he was

a Sergeantwith the MichiganNational Guarddown here. E: Theywere here on the Border?

M: 0h yes. So I knewWillber jmmediatelyand was in associationwith him from the time I got there. He jnterestedme in this respect:

His Armycareer wasalways more important to him than being in the l!o'litical] hierarchy. To be Lieutenantand then, I think, a Captainin the Rainbow Divisionwas the mostimportant chapter in his life. So, whenhe wasappointed Secretary of l{ar that real'ly cappedhis career. It was the mostimportant job to him that he could possiblyho1d. Heloved the Armyas few peopledo. A strangeturn in myfortunes, again a pivotal event in mylife, .|939. cameabout in Juneof I spokeabout my intimaterelationship with the huntingcrowd and wjth the horse showcrowd and the polo .|04 crowdin Detroit. I wassecretary of the HorseShow Association.

I'Jehel d national showsannual 1y at the Bloomf iel d CountryCl ub.

I wason the microphonetalkinq aboutthe eventsto the people at BloomfieldHunt Club at this national showaround the 20th of Juneand I washit by lightning. Theonly thinq that savedmy life wasthat the'lightning bolt hit the powerline andcame througha transformerbefore it hit me. It knockedme down and I got up immediatelyand I thoughtI wasn't hurt. It wasin a drenchingrain of cloudburstproportions, and when the showwas over I wastaken to a nearbyhome of a friend of mine, Carlton

Higby. [He] gaveme some of his clothing to exchangefor mywet stuff andwe hada few drinks. I wenthome and still thoughtI hadhad a lucky escape. Thefollowing morning I wasawakened with a sensationin myhands and feet as if there wereiron clawsinside of trtyextremit'ies just drawinqme up like that. ThenI realized that I had beenhurt. I went to the doctorsand they di scovered that the lighiling haddestro.yed about 40%of my red blood cells. To makea'long story short, for the next three monthsI wasjn a condit'ionof invalidism. It affectedmy heart andmy stomach. By SeptemberI was in a condjtonwhere I had about six carbuncleson my rear end and wasso wretchedI couldn't move. I remernberthat night we hada dinnerengagement. The doctors in Detroit wouldn't touch the carbuncles,by the way. hlehad a dinner engagementat the,Caggoners,and my wife called up Waggonerand told him that I cbrjldn't move. Sheexpla'ined what was wrong and he sajd, "Well, put the big s'issyin the rear seat andyou drive him out herre." So we got out to his home.[He] took medown to his studyand said, "Now,'lean over the bed there. " He took my pants downand he went over to a .l05 candleand picked out a pocketknifeand put it throughthe flameof the candle,and then wentover andcame "Bang, bang, bang" like that to the carbunclesand said, "llow,don't you feel better?" SuddenlyI wasgreatly relieved. I wasalmost hilarious because of the relief. Herewas one doctor whohad the nerveto tackle the prob'lem.I hadfailed to explainthat Waqqoner,in addition to beinga psychiatrist, wasthe greatestdiaqnosticjan that I ever ran into'in my1ife. Andwe sat up drinkingScotch until 2:00 in the morning. Wegot talking aboutwar cominqand I said, "RaV, it's right hereand it can't be avoided.Waris boundto comeand it's comingquickly. It will comewithin a day or two. Just like that." Andhe said, "Ohnyou're crazy. Youdon't knowwhat you're talking about." AndI said, "I'do. I knowit. I'm absolutely certain of it." Well, lvewent to bedabout 2:00 andat 5:00 he cameand wakened me. Hesaid, "Comeout andlisten to the radio. They'rebombing Warsaw." And that wasthe beginningof Worldl,rlar II. llle11,I've exp'lainedthis for only onereason. HadI beenin good physical condition I wouldhave gone to the Waras a comespondent, whichwould have put meon an entirely different course. TheDetroit Newswould have sent meover immediately. But becauseI wasstill invaljded, I stayedput whereI was. I started, two daysafter the

Warbegan, broadcasting twenty minutesevery day over station t,rlt^IJ for one reasononly--there wasa manrunning the station for the news,Harry Bannister,who later becamea Vice-Presidentof NBC. Wehad been commissioned together in France,and Harry and I would meetat lunchduring the yearsand we'd start talking military affairs and he wasabsolute'ly flabbergasted that I knewso much moreabout the military than he did and that I understoodstrategy 106

and tactics in a waythat he couldn't beginto- Andso" as s00n as the l,llarstarted he hadthe fdea of getting meon radio to talk aboutthe War. My first broadcastwas to the effect that Poland wasqoing to be defeatedand over-run within thirty days,which, of course,was an extremelyunpopular view at that time. But, at any rate, it washis putting meon WlnlJthat a coupleweeks later gavethe Detroit Newsthe idea of havjngme write a military column,a precis on the War,saying what was coming and what was sig- nificant aboutthe day's events.I continuedwith the broadcasting and it hada tremendousfollowing. I rememberon one occasionwe .l0,000 had letters comein on one broadcastthat I hadrnade--some of themdamning me as a Communistand others damninqffi€ as a Fascist and so on. But, at any rateo the columnand the broadcasttogether weremaking me a central fiqure'in the affairs of flthemidWest]. I'd gonea'lonq for aboutsix monthswith this and I got a proposition from the GoodyearT'ire Companyto cometo NewYork to broadcast five t'imesa weekfor themfor $2500. I didnrt feel temptedby it at all. I turnedit down. I gavemy wife the reason'ing.I sajd,

"TheUnited States is goingto get into this Warand I'm goingback into the Armybecause I'll be neededbecause I can do itn and if I take this easymoney (in the first p1ace,I didn't wantto go to NewYork under any circumstances)if I take this easymoney, I'll be lookingfor easymoney the rest of my'life andwhen the War is over all of theseso-called military commentatorsof the day will be wortha dimea dozen. Whereas,if I go'into the Servjcesand oet recognizedas an authority on the military, myreputation in the post-Waryears w'i11 keep me goinc. I'll still havea fo11owing." tr.lell,that's the wayit workedout. 107

General,going backto Detroit society in the pre-Waryears, you'vementioned your acquaintanceswith po'litica1figures, with

figures in the automotiveindustry. I gather that you musthave

beenacqua'inted with literary figures in the Mid-West.Is that so?

M: By accident, from t'imeto time. It wasmore by accidentthan anythingelse. Bertita Harding,for instance,and Pieme Von Passen. I couldname twenQror thirty like that that movedin and

out of my1ife. LowellThomas and numerous novelists and so-on. I wouldmeet them in variouswayg. Sometimesit wouldbe that they werelecturing and I wasintroducjng them--something of that

k'indor theYwou'ld come ca11ing.

E: Whatelement of society wouldyou say that you weremost comfortable with at that time?

M. Thehorse crowd. E: You'rea great sportsman,a glreatlover of sports, Is that riqht? Hasthat beenthrouqhout your life? t,.lell,primarily horses:j€S.

Howlong wereyou 'in Detroit as a newspapermanbefore they began to sendyou out to Mexicoevery year? Immediate'ly. Immediately?The first year?

No, becauseI got there the end of 1927--theend of September.I wasjust finding myway around then, but my first trip to Mexicowas in I 928.

In the summer? I don't recalI whattime of year I wentthere on that trip. Since I madea trip annua11y,one sort of blendsinto another. t0B

E: Do you by any chancerecall whereyou were on your birthday in

1928?

M: 1928? No- tr. Thereason I ask is becauseI believe the famousMexican President / AlvaroObregon was assass'inated on July 17,1928, and I thought perhapsyou mightremember bejng in Mexicoor somethinqlike that.

M: No, I wasnot in Mexicoat the time he wasassassjnated.

E: Couldyou tel l us aboutyour trips to Mexico--yourimpressionsof the countrywhen you started goingdown there on behalf of the Detroit News?

l^lel1,I think you'd haveto parse the question--breakit down into parts. Impressionsof the peopleor impressionsof the country side?

Letrs start off with the people. That's whatI'm primarily interested in, General. I,lhatkind of workwere these peopledoing that you saw? Did you travel by train, by the way?

I traveled by train in the early years becausethere wasno other meansof transportation,except a limited useof automobile.Then,

as rapidly as ajr servicewas established, I got with that. In fact, I madethe pioneerflight betweenEl Pasoand ChihuahuaCity

on the Cat Lockheed. I wasthe only passenger.It wasquite an interesting time. i think that wasaround February, 1931. I know it wasFebruary and it wasextremely stormy weather. Wehad to sit downon the desert three times betweenhere and Chihuahuaon account of weatherclosing in. Wefound landing places where we could also take off andwe knockeddown two telephonel'ines on the waythere andthen we got into ChihuahuaCity after dark andthey didn't have any land'inglights on the field. By the graceof God,we made a goodlanding and taxied several hundredyards, and then suddenly

hit somethingand the planenosed over. Thatwas my first airplane

crash. lalhathad happened Was that the commanderof the Chihuahua garrisonwas using the a'irportas a po'lofield, andwe hit the sideboards. It wreckedthe plane. lnlell,at Ieast he wasplaying your favorite sport. Gettingback

to your impressionsof the people,do you haveany recollections aboutpoverty, for instance,in Mexicoback in the late'20s or early '30s? Wouldyou considerit anymore severe than it is today?

Doesanyth'ing st'ick out in your mindabout that?

We1'1,you sawpoverty in varying degreeseverywhere you went. Wasit moresevere in the UnitedStates or in Mexico? I think, probably,you wouldnotice it morein the UnitedStates for one reason. This is an impression. I wasstruck by the degree to which, in mostMexican communities, the peoplearound would try to help the poor. Theywould give thema handhere and there. Therewas no organ'izedcharity in Mexico.

F. No [organized]institutions?

M: No. I wasstruck also by the continuedviolence and bloodshed in Mexico.Therewas an amazingdegree of it. I recall onetime leavingmy wife at Mazatl{nand I wasgoing over to the Gulf Coaststates'

while I wasgone--th'is was around'33 or'34--there wasan ep'isode there , a ri va1ry betweenpo'l i ti ca1 part'ies. I don't recalI exactly the nature of the thing, but there wassuddenly an execu- tion of 26 individuals, I mean,a thing muchlarger than the St. Valentine'sMassacre in Chicago. Mywife wasshocked by it. But 110 by the time that I got backto Mazatlanthe communityhad almostforgotten it. I recall anothertime I wasin a bar [in the capital of Micnoacatn]. This wasat noontime. A guy comesin, movesto hold the bartenderup, andaccidentally pulls the trigger andknocks off the bartender'sthumb.

Thebartender picked up a pistol from the bar and just shot him through the brain. Theydragged him out, and that wasall there wasto it. In .|938--I later years--I think this was waswjth SherwoodAnderson, a nove"list; andMiles Furlong,who was Deputy Commissioner of Police in Detroit; and Gilda Gray, the old shimmydancer. Shewas an old friend of mine from Detroit days. Wewere in front of the SevenSeas bar in the square there at Alcapulco. Wewere staying at the El MiradorHotel. The guy whowas the "3'efe"--themayordomo of our hotel--camewalking down the sidewalktoward us. Suddenlyfrom beh'ind the wall of the building where we werestanding, two guysjump out and put thefr knives throughhis back. Onetakes h'is pistol and shootshim throughthe stomachand they run. Hewas not killed, but you could tell he wasin a dyingcondition. lnleleft him with Gilda Grayand SherwoodAnderson. Gilda Graywas fanning him andgiving himwater, whichwas the worst thing to do with anyone whohas beenshot throughthe stomach. Furlongand I ran for the nearest policeman. Thepoliceman saidn "lr'ledon't pay any attention to anyth'ing like that. It's a Unionmatter; let it go." Furlongspoke good Spanish and wasarguing with him. Thenwe went for a doctor. l,r|efound the doctor... no, they shot him in the back, I'm sorry, not in the stomach;it wasin the back. But the bullet lodgedin his stomach. t,rleexp'lained to the doctor what had happendand he sa*d, "Wherewas he hit?" I 1il

said, "In the back." Thedoctor said, "Well, if they're shot

in the backthey neverget better. " So we iust wentback there and stayedwith the ouy until he wasdead. Thesewere typ'ica'l

incidents,but they wereshocking t0 me. E: I just marvelat the amountof violencethat you've encountered in your life--even by the time you were40 years o1d. Doyou attribute it to the breaks? M: 0h yes" I think so. Strange,flukey things. Are we still talking for the record? E: Yes. Wouldyou like for us not to be? M: No, that's all right. I can neverquite understand'it myself-- howand whyit happened.I recall one extremelyinteresting

episodefrom that period. I wasflying into M6ridaand I wanted to get downto Honduras. I madea reservat'ionfor the next PanAm plane that camethrough. WhenI got out to the plane they had sold

myseat to somebodyelse. 0f course,I wasangry as hell, But

that planecrashed on its wayto Hondurasand everyone was killed. SooI went backto MexicoCity and amangedto take anotherPan Am p'lane. Theplanes only camethrough once a weekin Mdrida. I

amangedto take anotherPan Am fliqht out of MexicoCity and exactly the samething happenedto me. Somebodyelse had beensold my seat, So I didn't get aboardthat planeand that planehit the

top of Ixtaccihuatland everybody was killed. So I said, "I'm throughwith flying. Thehell with it. I'm goingto stay on the groundfrom nowon." Thenthe Warcame along and I wasdoing more flying than I ever did in mylifei 112

E: General,when you weren'tbrushing with deathin Mexico... M: I don't think this wasbrushinq with death. I don't think you

rea'l1yhave close calls. I meanit. If you escapeit, it isn't a close call. tr. That's an interestingpoint of vjew. I'd like for you to tell me .l930s. aboutyour recollectionsof MexicoCity during the What placeswould you frequent--therestaurants, the nightclubs,that kind of thing; night life in MexicoCity dur:ingthe '30s? You mustbe an expert on that.

M: Not real'ly. I rememberone place that I usedto alwaysgo to that

wason the [Paseo]de la Reforma,a coupleof blocks towards ChapultepecCast:le from Sanborns. Itt was] a Frenchrestaurant that alwayshad good boulliabaise.[The l4arseilles] I wouldgo there quite regu'larly I didn't go in muchfor night 1ife. It didn't interest me. 0utside

of that, I havelittle recollectionof Mex'icaneating places[except Prendes]. I shouldadd this: Mexicocity a'lwaysdid somethingto methat no other p'lacedid, and I cannotexplain this. MexicoCity hadan effect on meof this kind: immediate'lyar; I hit the city I br-'cameafflicted by an iritensestate of depressionand I becamea hypochondriac. All kinds of imag'inarydjseases would hit me--mystomach, my heart, etc., etc, Andthjs wouldtake abouta weekto wearoff. During thosedays I wasgo'ing through the tortures of the damned.it wasnot a matterof altitude becauseI'd go to higheraltitudes. To Taxco,for example,wouldn't bother me at all. Beingat a high altitude wasa famil'iarexperience, but I alwaysgot it in MexicoCity. I rememberwhen I waswith SherwoodAnderson in Mexico City"andAlcapu'lco, I describedthis conditionto him. WhenI

left hjm in Alcapulcoafter the incjdent that I just mentioned--I il3 qot fed up at that time andwent on back to MexicoCity--and I said I'd meethim there. ThenI wentoff to Pachucaor somesuch place, and I got backto the GdneveHotel and here wasa note from

Sherwood--thathe'd comeback to MexicoCity and that what I had describedhad hit himoand he couldn't standit, andhe wasgoing

for the borderiust as fast as he could go. So, I knowthat the conditionwas not just peculiarto me. At least oneother person has experiencedit. Onegeneral impression of beinq in Mexicoat that time, that I've not touchedon, wasthe infinite kindnesswith which I wastreated as a visitor anywhereI went. I wouldsay this wasespeclally so in Yucatdn. Thegentlest people that I ever met in Mexicolive in Yucatin. Andincidentally, they're also the cleanliest peoplethat I've ever met. Youknow, it's ironic, but there's no placein Mexjcowhere water is as scarce as it is in Yucatfn,and it seemsto havethe oppositeeffect on them. Theyprize lt moreand they're moreimmaculate in their dressand more cleanly in their habits than peopleelsewhere.

Theoniy explanationI can find wasthat they prize water andmake the best useof it.

A very interestingobservation. General,I believeyou oncemade referenceto an eveningyou spentwith SherwoodAnderson just before the outbreakof the Warin a restaurant,at a hotel in MexicoCity. Yes. Couldyou recountthat incident for us, please? Yes. This wasino I think, Marchof 1938. Wewere staying at the GdneveHotel and there wasa Germanrestaurant about two blocksaway. I think it wasBefinghausens. We went there for dinner, andthis wasthe day that the Germantroops had marchedinto ll4

Austria to bring aboutAnschluss; and practical ly everyone

else in the restaurantwas German. They were having a greatly

festive time on accountof the Germanvictory in Austria. It was

getting on Sherwood'snerves and he said to me, "I'll bet you $20 you haven'tgot nerveenough to saylThe hell with Hitler."' Just

then the'lights wentout and I yelled, "Yourretaken." and I jumped up and shouted,"The hel I with Hftler. " l^lithin30 secondsthe lights wereon againand the Germanswere all lookingaround, wonder- ing whothe hell hadyelled. But at any rate, Sherwoodpa'id off.

Hewas a victim of circumstances. E: Did any of the peopleat nearbytables realize that it wasyou that hadjumped up?

M: No, I don't th'inkso. I displaceda few feet so they w"$-uldn't know. l^lewent on from there to Alcapulcooand I rememberwhen we

got to Taxcowe stoppedand had a bottle of wine. His wife was

following us in the car with a friend of hers from NewYork--Mary

Bennett,whose husband had made his fortune in Chesterfieldcigar- ettes; he wasthe advertising wizard that hadpromoted that cigarette--and

whenwe got throughthe bottle of wine, Andersonsaid, "Comeon, let's get in the car and keepon going." I said, "You'recrazy.

Look,this is a goodplace to spendthe night." He said, "Weare not goingto stay in Taxco." I said, "We'll,look. Theonly thing aheadof us is Iguala, andit's dirty andflea bound. Itrs rea1ly a miserablep'lace way down in the bottomsand we'll havea bad rr rrt,lle 'in ni ght there. are not going to stay Taxco. " I sai d , "All right. You'rerunning the car. Goahead." Sowe start on

downthe mountainand after a few minuteshe said, "I guessyou wantto knowwhy we didn't stay in Taxco." I said, "Frank1y,I

don't give a damnnow." Hesaid, "l,ljell,I'm goingto tel] you.', il5

I said, "Well, I knewyou wou1d." Hesaid, "MVfirst wife Iives in Taxco." ThenI real'ly blew. I said, "Well, whatthe hell, Sherwood.If my first wife wasin TaxcoI'd go to her and s'lapher on the canand say, 'Kid, havea drink."' Hesaid, "Yeah,but you weren'tmarried to my first wife." I said, "That'wasyour mis- fortune." He said, "Doyou wantto knowthe story?" I saido "It jsnrta c.aseif whetherI wantto knowit. You'regoing to tell it to me, so go ahead." "Wellr" he said, "whenI wasfirst struggling as a writer I hada small business;and at that time wewere not doing too well. Shewould come up to my roomand pick up mymanuscripts and tear themup and say, 'Sherwood,what are you doing? You'rejust wastingyour time andyou're ruining the chancesfor our sons. Now,you get backto your work.' I said to myself, 'Some- dayyou're goingto do that oncetoo often and I'm go'ingto walkout on you.' Andsure enough,orl€ day shedid it just oncetoo often and I movedout. Now,you maythink that I did it becauseshe tore up mymanuscripts. No, she had a right to do that. Maybe she knewmore about literature than I did. It aggravatedme, but that wasn'tthe final aggravation. i movedout on her becauseI thouqhtsex waswonderful and she thoughtit wasvu1gar." flLaughter] Wereyou pretty goodfriends with SherwoodAnderson? Verymuch so. I heardfrom him up until the time he died. He was killed, you remember,he chokedon a fish bone. I think he was

in Havanaat the time. / 0ther stories haveit that it wasa toothpicksljver in Colono Panama. 0h real1y? il6

E: Yes- General, that' s a goodstory. Youhave many more to tell

uS, I'm sure. I think we'lI breaktoday's interviewat this

time. Thankyou very much. 117

[6th interviewsession, July 19, 1975J

E: Did you knowUlises Irigoyen?

M: Verywel1. E: General,could you teli us the circumstancesunder which you met Mr. Irigoyen? M: I'm sure that I met him prior to the time whenI becamewell

acquaintedwith him. It wasaften we, as a Rotarycommittee from El Pasoformed Ju{rez Rotary, that we becameclose friends. As I recall jt, he washead of the Rotaryover there. I sawhim steadily from the years 1922till 1927,

E: For the benefit of the listeners, this is concerningUlises

Irigoyeno lvhowrote a two-volumeon El prgPlemaecon6mico de las frgltera: mexicanas.He was also an expert on various aspects of businesson the north Mexicanfrontier. General,do you recall

during theseyears--say the '20s in El Paso--wasthere a lot of discussionregarding the FreeZone or the re-implementationof the Free Zone?

I don't recall that there wasa great deal. .l905 0f course, the FreeZone had beenterminated in by Josd Limantourin Mexico,and it causedgreat consternationhere in CiudadJuf,rez and it causedexcitement in El Paso,too. Mr. Irigoyenwrote thjs bookin order that the officials in Mexicobe movedto reinstate the Zone. But you don't recall muchtalk aboutthis? No, no I don't. Hewas an extremelyfriendly personand did a great deal to cementrelations acrossthe border. il8

tr. Djd he speakEnglish?

M: 0h yes, he spoke very good English. He was a very tall manr d veF!

imposingfigure and had a wonderfulsense of humor--lovedto laugh

and tell stories. that kind of thjng. Peoplewere just naturally drawnto himbecause of his d'isposition.

F. Did he seemto havemany connections in MexicoCity? Wouldyou know?

M: At that time I wasunaware of it. He had very definite connections with the state government.I meanohe washighly regardedby peoplein ChihuahuaCity.

E: General,Vou have mentioned L. M. Lawsonin our discussionsabout the borderduring the'20s. Couldyou tell us whoMr. Lawsonwas andwhat role he playedin this community?

M: First of all, I'd commentthat the InternationalBoundary Commjssioners

whohad precededhim werenot outstandingmen. Theywere pof itical

hacksmainly. GeorgeCurry is a prominentname--former Governor

of NewMexico and then Collectorof the Port here, and so on. But Georgewas a lush. Hejust couldn't stay awayfrom the bottle. Lawsoncame on around1923 or 1924as Commissioner.He was aware that his mainjob wasto createan atmosphereof goodfellowship

and friendlinesswith the Commissionerson the Mexicanside--that until the interpersona'lrelationships had changed he couldn't do anyth'ingabout boundary problems. l1ewas a very f ine pianist. Duringthe periodthat he washere, anduntil I left El Paso,the Commissjonmeetings took this form that we wouldusually go down to Zaragoza--therewas an abandonedtheater downthere--and we wouldmeet on a Saturday,and everybodywould get togetheraround lunch. He'dstart playingthe pianoand I wouldstart singing. il9

lnje'dsinQ Mexican sonqs, then Americansongs. We'dgo on

this wayfor a coupleof hours--iusthavinq a time of fellowship

wherewe could qet better acquaintedwith one another. He was

the onethat conditjonedthe peopleon both Commissionsso that they qot toqetheras friends andcould talk thinqs over without

takinq a natjonal position as to whatwas the right thing to do and howto proceedto get to it. Hewas still living up untjl the late '30s I'm certain. Everytime I cameto El Paso I wouldvisit him. By that time he hadgone blind--I think it wasfrom cataracts. Hewas still an extremelyenioyabl'e person. But it washjs influenceas an individual--hisfar-

sightednessthat you've qot to get to knowpeople so that at the sametime they're gett'inqto knowyou beforeyou can transact businessfairly at the internationallevel.

E: This soundslike an impress'iveindividual. Doyou reca11any- thingtabout his backqround--howhe qot to El Paso? M: No, I don't. I knewit all at onetime and I think there are letters in myfiles that reflect his background,but I can't tell you right now.

E: Verygood. General,in your experience'has this inter-personal 'interchanqe,interplay that you're talking aboutbeen important

in relations betweenthe two cities?

M: 0h, I th'inkso entirely. Believeme, these were some of the 'in great object lessonsof mylife. I realized, for instance, the job of commandthat this wasall-important--that these same th'ings translatedinto military life. At the time that I waswriting thefofficial

workon the philosophyoflOtticership in a1l of our armed 120

forces, I brouQhtthis to the fore as the mostimportant point--

that the lack of communicationbetween the officer and the en-

listed manwas the mostserious gap andthe failure on the part of the officer to realize that the enl'istedman had iust as muchright to knowabout his fam'ilyand his backqroundas he

knewof his subordinate'sbackground, etc. This hadto be a two-waycurrent orit couldn't work. These.'arealmost 'inevjtablesteps jn the developmentof one's owncharacter, personality,and out-look. I knowthat I learnedmuch from Law- sonduring that period. I could see howit waspossible to get hold of menin a really seriousmatter, andthat the basis of

it had to be mutualunderstanding between person and person

beforetogether you can really transactbusiness. tr. So it wasa rather catholic obiect lessonfor you?

M: Yes. Youknow, we referred to PortesGil the other day, and I told you that I knewhjm quite well. I remembertalk'ing to him

on one occasionwhen he wasSecretary of Gobernacio"n,and we

weretalkinq abouta deal that he wasproposinq between Mexjco andthe UnitedStates. Whenhe qot through,I madean obiection.

I said, "Doyou think that that js really fair to the United States?" Andhe said, "14r.MarshalI, don't you understandthat while it maynot be fair to the UnitedStates, we are the smaller countryand a smaller country has qot a right to look for an extra advantaqe?"lnJell, I hadnot eventhought about it up ti11 that time, andyet it washis reflecting on that that led meat

the timeofor example,when I waswriting out the paper,the 121

staff papersthat took us into NAT0and which became a first stepping

stone in the formingof NAT0,that I expressedthe idea that in that alliance the UnitedStates would have to counton it at all t'imesthat

the smal1er partnerswoul d take advantageof the arrangementand that

that wouldbe part of the basis of the treaty organization. Wehad to acceptthis as a principle.

E: Veryilluminating. To follow this train of thought,what is your opinion of the relationship of the UnitedStates with regardto the smallernations of the world in the UnitedNations today?

M: hlell, I quite agreewith the position statedquite recentlyby Kiss'inger. I felt all alongthat the smallernations (so-called),

or let's say the "third worldnations," wereon their waytoward the destructionof the worldorganization. I'm not at all hostile

to the idea,phat is, its disappearance]I recall a dinner-partycon-

versationabout six or sevenyears ago at the homeof PaulNitze in Washington.Dean Atcheson was there with his wife, mybrother and his wife, andthe Ambassadorfrom Pakistan and his wife, andthe

conversationat the dinnertable turnedto the UnitedNations and it

absorbedthe wholeevening. Theviews expressed were, "TheUnited Nationsis no damnedgood as it is now,but on the other handwe've got to havejt; we'vegot to hold on to it." I didn't say a word. Mybrother would grunt occasionally,make some interjection; but I didn't say anythinguntil we retired for brandyinto Nitze's studyand Paul said, "Sam,you didn't say a word. Whatwas the matter?" I said, "Look,I couldn't havegotten a word'in edgewisebecause you weretalking at sucha rate; but had I spokenI wouldhave 122

disagreedwith whatyou said becauseyou voicedtwo mutual'ly

exclusivepropositions that this is no goodbut we'vegot to

haveit. The ideas do not go tooether. If it's no good'

it mightbe better to see'it explodejust l'ike that andqet a world shockout of it that wouldlead to somethingbetter. But if you qo alongwith an organizationthat you knowis a losing

institution, lou're not only goingto lose confidencein it; but we're goingto lose confidencein the world future and in the pos'itionof the UnitedStates."

E: That's an interestingpoint of vjew. I'l: Incidentally, they agreedwith mewhen I got through. E: Theydi9- agree with you? M: That's right. Theydidn't arquethe point at all. Theythouoht

it mightbe better to havean explosionand then look to some- thinq else to seewhat would happen as a consequence.Because the UnitedNat'ions is followinqpretty muchthe history of the

League,only in a worseway, because I don't think there's any

question[that] the large part of the so-calleddeveloping nationsare out to hurt the UnitedStates. Theyen- joy doing it. Weshouldn't worry too muchabout that. I've

alwayssa'id about our l ine of propagandathrough the "Voiceof

America"and so forth, that we have the wrongaim. I've said this ever sinceWorld War Il--that it wasstupid for the 'long UnitedStates to try to be loved. As as you are in the top 't posritiono you don expectl ove. That i s, .voushoul dn' t exnecti t. There'sno likelihood of you ever getting it, 'irrespectiveof 123

your policy; you'11always be the ma'intarget. If you can be respectedsomewhat and feared a little b'it you'11be a lot better

off.

E: Wouldyou apply that kind of reasoninqto relations between two cities on a frontier? M: No, no I don't at all. E: So i t' s di fferent?

M: Essentiallydifferent becausethey havefundamentally a community of interests. E: hlithin the past coupleof years in El Pasowe've seen certainly a lesseningof understandinqbetween the two sister cities of El Pasoand Ciudad Judrez. I'm not sure to whatextent you're familiar with someof the conflicts that havearisen.

M: t^lell, I knowsome of them. And I knowsome of themare of a very piddling, si1ly nature.

Couidyou elaborateon that, General? Well, I'm talking aboutthe transportationdifficulty--the

failure to agreeon a plan, etc., etc.--andthe "niff-gnawing" that goeson betweenthe two governmentsthat are behindthe

cities, etc. I'm not certain that a pessimisticview of the presentrelationship is justified for the simplereason that

we live in a periodwhen friction dueto economicand other causesis quite generalover the world, and I wouldsay that underthe conditions,the relationshipbetween El Pasoand Juai^ez 'is good.

Therehave been studies doneon El Pasoand C'iudadJutrez since the turn of the century. Onescholar has madethe commentto me 124

that any time there is suddenlya decline in the economicstability of the UnitedStates, that authoritieson the Americanside of

the border havetended to point to the "wet backo"to the mi- grant laborer, immediatelyand have singled him out as a problem--

as one of the bioger problemsthat the bordercommunity faces. M: Correct. E: Doyou think this is true? M: Yes, I think that's true. Thatwill alwaysbe the politicos' attitude. Just whetherthere's sufficient justification for that

attitude 'is quite anotherquestion. I think it's vastly over- emphasized.I'm quite sure that if there wasnot a movementfrom

. southof the border to north, whetherof a "wet back" [nature] or not, the mainsufferer wouldbe the farmersand the other interests

in the UnitedStates that dependon cheaplabor. Jobsin the

sugarbeet fjelds are not goinqto be takenover by peoplewho at the presenttime are on relief. Theydon't wantthat kind of work. Whatlooks goodto the migrantfrom Mexicobecause

it's better thanwhat he's had, still is not goingto'look good to the personwho's on the dole in the UnitedStates. I th'ink that is vastly exaQgerated.I knowof casesright here in this c'ity. There'sone case riqht next door, of a fami'lythat's being held togetherby their Mexicanmaid, by the womanwho worksfor them. Therejsn't any possibility of rep'lacinqthat womanwith a womanfrom the United States that can do the same workand who'll do it in the sameway. It happensthat the wife is an invaljd andher illness is of a kind that mylate wife had for eighteenyears, and it takes an extraordinary 125

nurseto adjust to this kind of homesituation. I recall one year in whichI wentthrouqh thirteen changesin nursesunder

the sameconditions. Yet right nowImmigration is movingtoward eliminatingthis womanbecause the rules so say. I'm doing

everythingI can to keepit from happen'ing.And if necessary I'll go d'irectly to GeneralChapman who is the ImmiqrationDirector of the UnitedStates, andwhom I knowquite well andpoint out why

this is an extremelyEnjudiciorr]rou.. E: Generalnhave you ever qiventhought to howthe UnitedStates governmentcould ameliorateimmigration problems along the UnitedStates-Mexican border?

M: No. E: You'venever given that muchthought?

M: No, I've nevergone into it, and I woulclnot try to speakwith any authority or anythingthat suqsestedI had knowledgeon a subjectthat I haven'tstudied.

That's quite al1 right. Wehave been diqressing a ljttle bit

fromwhat we were speaking of the other day, but I think it's justified in view of the fact that you addedto our know'ledge

on certain points, on certain figures. Theother day wewere speak'ingabout your voyages,your trips to Mexicoduring the 1930s,during the late '30sespecially. Yourecounted jncidents with SherwoodAnderson; you recountedGerman sentiment in Mexico City in the '30s. Couldyou tell us whenthese trips to Mexico cameto an end andmore or less whatyou did then? .l938 wasthe last year. Theterminal point wasreached because .l939 of the lnlarcoming on in andthe Warengrossing all of my 126

attention. So, from that time on I wasfollowing the War.

Incidentally, I fa'iled to say that at that big party, that big bust that we had in 1927before I left, I wasmade an honorary Majorin the MexicanArmy. That's oneof the titles I own. tr. Wereyou ever promoted?

M: No.

F. Just Major?

M: Just a Major. I'm an honoraryColonel in the U.S. MarineCorps andan honoraryMajor in the MexicanArmny. E: That maybe an honor.

M: I thjnk it's time for themto promoteme, though. Theycame to

an end in 1938,and the last big adventureI haddown there was in connectionwith Cedillo. I hadstarted that trip fromMazatlJn,

wentover into the Gulf Coaststateso and wherever I went I was readingstories in the pressabout Cedillo havingan Armyof 24,A00men that wereready to start a revolution. Andthe other

feature in the story wasthat his place atPalomaswas surrounded by federal troops. Therewas no chanceof getting there. Be-

causethis figure poppedup in various newspapersabout 24,0A0 troops--'it wasalways the same--Ifigured it mustbe a government p1ant. I didn't knowthe backgroundother than that. l,lell, I cameback to MexicoCity from the Gulf Coaststates and I ran into an old schoolmateof mine, a teammatefrom UTEP--Toppix Sorrels whohad beena senior whenI wasa freshman. Wehad knownone anothervery well in France. He had beenin the Artillery backingup mydivision on oneoccas'ion in l9l8 whenI had visited himover there. Toppix,bV this time, vvasthe headof Re-

public Miningand Metals in SanLuis Potosi'. Wewere p'laying 127

qolf at the MexicoCity CountryClub and I kept askinghi'm,

"What'is the real situation with respectto Cedillo?" He said,

"Nowlisten, I'm a miningengineer and you're a newspapermanand you are supposedto go out andfind out whatthe situation is. Youdon't ask me. That's no wayto get your workdone." I

said, "WelI, that'strue, Toppix." Weplayed on throuqhthe ninth hole andhe suddenlydisappeared in the club house,came back

andsaid, "You'regoing to SanLuis Potos{tonight." I said, "0K." So he put meaboard the trainrandI wasmet in SanLuis Potosf in the morningby a classmateof minefrom what is now

UTEP--KennethHardy, who was Superintendent of AS&Rin San Luis Potosi Andhe took meout to his home. He'dmarried a

Mexicangir'l andthey hada numberof children. I wasthere all day enjoyingtheir family. WheneverI asked him about the

s'ituationof Cedillo andwhat was coing on in Palomashe wouldn't say a wordand I went backto myhote'l very muchdisgusted and

I was in the "cantina" getting a beer wheninto the roomcame 0scarCaballero, my old friend whohad been Purchasing Agent for Villa.

E: Duringthe Revolution?

M: Yeah. Wehad an abrazoand he said, "Myfriend, whatare you doing'in SanLuis Potos'i'?"And I said, "I camehere to find out rr whatis the situation with El Jefe. rrl^Je'll, " he said, "I can't te'I1you, but if you wantto see El Jefe, we'll go to see El Jefe tomorrowmorning at 5:00." Andthen I realized that my friends hadplanned this wholething. AndI said, t28

"Howdo we get there?" Andhe said, "l^lejust get in the car and we start out." It wasabout a 90-milejourney as I recall it now. AndI said, "Whatabout the federal troops?" He said,

"Well, we'll seeas we go a1ong. By the way,do you havea firearm?" I said, "No." Hesaid, "lrlelI , I'l I bring a pistol. Youwon't needit, but you m'ightas well carry it." So we get out there andthere's no one. Wedon't seea soul al I the way to Palomasand whenwe get to the gate at Palomasthere vvasa

"mozo"standing there iust tendingthe gate andOscar whistles to hjm and he lets us in. l,leget up to the ranchhouse and here are four guyssquatted down, working over a map., "If they go tha! way, then we movetlat way. And then 'if they counter, thenwe do this." I thought,"Well, here's the real thing at last." AndI wentup andlooked over their shouldersand they werelooking at a mapof Spain. Theywere talking aboutwhat wasgoing on in Spain--theSpanish Civil War. I askedthem,

"l,,fhere'sEl Jefe?" Andthey said, "He's downthe road planting tomatoes." I said, "Howdo we get there?" Theysaido "If you wantto get therer lou get there like we get there--walkothat's all." Sowe started out andwe hadabout a half-mile walk. Whenwe got there, an irrigation bankhad beenbroken through by" the streamand the streamwas flooding the tomatoes. Wewalked up to Cedil'lo,whom Caballero well knew, and I started telf ing himwho I wasand he said, "I don't care whoyou are (talking in Spanish)--youget a shoveland start working." So 0scar and I got the shovelsand we workedfor the next forty minutes 129

helpingthem get the waterunder control. ThenCedillo took us backto the house. l,rlehad supper,a very enioyableone. I

rememberhe had several cactusdishes that night--dishesthat

I hadnever tasted before. Then,after that, we wentout on the porchin the moonlight. I'll neverforget him becausehe was

a great bulbousman, very fat. By that time he musthave weighed 270 pounds--avery fat face. The porch was unscreenedand the flies wouldsettle on his sweatingface andhe'd wait for a few minutesand then reachup with a handlike that andgrab half a dozenflies during the conversation.And I askedhim what

wasthe situation hereon the ranch--washe planninga revolution,

planningto fight? Andhe said, "Mr. Marshall,I knowyou're a military man--0scartold me. I'll give you a horsetomomow morningand you can go anywhereyou please--Ciudaddel Mes,

anywhereelse. If you find ong sign that I amdoing anytLilg to

raise troops, Jou go aheadand write it." (Subsequent'lyI did take a horse...wentall over the property.)RnO I said, "Well, thenowhat'is this all about?" Andthen he told methe story aboutCt'rdenas' hatred of him--that C/rdenascould not stand him

becausehe hadmade Cdrdenas and it washis weight at the Quer5taro Conventionthat hadbrought about the nominationof C/rdenas.

He said, "Cdrdenasis determinedto destpoym€." I've over- simplified his explanation. Hewent into great details of the trouble that he hadhad with C{rdenas.

E: But that wasthe j ist of it.?

It'l: That wasthe 5ist of it. E: That he hadmade him?

M: Yes,he actually nominatedhim. .|30

Yes. AndI said, "l,tjell,what wi1'l you do if he comesafter you?"

Hesaid, "Doyou think I'll let any son-of-a-bitchwho soldiered underfManuelMondrag5n]drive me off myland?" AndI said, "No, I don't supposeyou wou1d. But are you sure you wantme to say whatyou havejust told me?" I had taken it downverbatim--wrote it as he said it. I said, "Becauseas surelyas you do, he'll comeafter you." He said, "If it's time for meto die in Mexicobecause I'm speakingthe truth and i knowit, then I'm readyto die."

AndI questionedhim again; I said, "You'retaking a terrible chance." He sa'id,"That's beside the point. Just go aheadand write'it the wayI've said it." I wasthere for the next two daysriding aroundthe p1ace,seeing if there wereany signs of revolution. All

I foundwere a few old revolutionaries, someof themwith an armor a 1egmissing, working for him. Thatwas all. [Nonehad weapons.] ThenI went backto SanLuis andwent to the City. I wasn't ready to leave MexicoCity, but I knewthat I darednot put this story on the wire. At the GdneveHotel I ran into JohnBalaban and his wife, Myrtle. [Hewas] Balaban of Balabanand Katz of Chicago. At that time they ownedParamount Pictures and they owneda large part of the movietheaters in the easternhalf of the United States. Hewas a multi-millionaireand a coupleweeks before this I had savedhim in a scenesouth of Cuernavaca.I wascoming along the road in a taxi and ran into a hold-upwhere two Mexicanshad pisto'ls on him andwere tak'ing money from the Balabans. And I walkedup and talked to the Mexicansand said, "Now,look. This shouldbe negotiated. If you take everythinghe's got, that's a robbery. 0n the other hand, l3l

you can say, 'It's so muchto use the roadand you'll have

free wayhere,' andwe canwork out a businessdeal whereyou']1

be perfectly safe." hlell, they settled for $100. If the Balabans wouldpay $.l00,that wouldsatisfy them. So Johnfelt somewhat obligated to meand I askedhim to get off the train in SanAntonio

and get th'is on the wire to the llewYork T'imes, Detroit News,and the North AmerjcanNewspaper Alljance. It wasabout ten daysafter

that time that the federal Army[under C#Oenas] marched on Cedillo. It took aboutthirty days, I think, to run himdown. Theykilled him in a caveas I recall it. E: That's right.

M: I recalI that aboutthree weeksafter that happened--thedate

wassometime in Marchnaround the llth or l2th of March. About three weeksafter that happened,Time Magazine had a rerumdon this revolution andwhy a federal marchhad beenprecipitated

and it told abouta wealthyoil manfrom Tampicoarriving fat Palomaslwith $5 mjllion to financethe revolutionand that wasthe tip-off--that wasthe thing that hookedCedillo, whenthe govern-

mentfound out about[the oi1 man]. Well, I wasthe wealthyoil man,because I wasthe on'lystranger there in that period--it was the samedate that I wasat Palomasand I knowthat there wasno other stranger there. So this story wasmade up.

F. Cedillo, of course,has beenportrayed as oneof the last of the caudillos in the Latin Americantradition, in the Mexican

tradition. He's beenportrayed as beinga pistol packing,mean humanbeing. Howdid you find him? D'idhe packa pistol? 132

M: No, sir. Hewas completely unarmed. There wasn't an armed

man. l,rlell,a coupleof thosefellows at the ranchhad pistols

fas I nowrecall. But I saulno rifles.] Thepeople who worked in the fields werenot armedat all. E: Andhe wasnot armed? M: Noonot at all.

E: Whatkind of a manwas he? Did you like him?

M: I liked him very much. Hewas a very warmman. Hetalked with

a great deal of parnestness,and no wit.] I'm certain that he knewhe wasgoing to die, but he could still laughand smile about it. Hewas a very intenseCatholic, no questionabout that. He hada great dea'lof faith. But as for him beinga caudi11o,gee, anybodyseeing him in those circumstanceswas aware that he

couldn'!be typedthat way. All he wastrying to do wastake care

of a few old menwho had been in the warswith him, that wasall.

E: Howwould you characterizethe influencethat he held on that areaof Mexico--theSan Luis Potosiarea?

0h, there's no questionabout [his radiance.] He usedthe title "El Jefe." Everybodyin SanLuis Potosi'cal led him the ,'Jefe"--

they thoughtof him as a very big man. But there werenot enough

potentia'lrevolutionaries in all of SanLuis Potosi'to give him a chance;so that descriptionof him in his waningyears simply wouldnot hold true. GeneralMarshall, did you ever meetCJrdenas?

No, nevermet him. I've beennext to him; nevermet him. I told you whyI nevermet him--because he insisted on having questionspassed to him before he could be interviewedoand 133

he'd stick to thosequestions. Theeditor of El I'lagionql, FroylanManjares,(that was the party publicationo'it wasa daily

publication),was interested always in getting us togetherand naturally he wasin close to C/rdenas. But I told him that that wasjust a principle of mineand I wouldabide by it and he respectedme for it. It causedno strain 'in ogr relationship.

E: Couldyou tell mewhat the occasionwas when you foundyourself next to him?

M. That was at that ra1'ly in the 76ca1owhere I showedyou the picture the other day. Hewas making a'pubiic speechon some

kind of a big occasion. I don't recall whetherit wasa holi-

day or what it was. It mayhave been in connectionwith the oil expropriation. I think that's probablywhat it was. .|938 E: MarchlB, thereabouts?

I,il: Yeah. Is that the date? .|8, .|938. E: That's the date it happened--March

I wasback in MexicoCity by that time. That wasone reasonI wantedto stay on insteadof taking that story to the border. Connor,who was the Vice-presidentof StandardFruit Company,

I hadmet in Tabascomuch prior to this, whenhe wasclose to

Garidoeanabal. Wehad formeda friendship then becausewe felt the samevvay about Garidoas did GeorgeCreel--that he wasa goodman. ldhenI got backto MexicoCity

at that time neqotiationsbetween the oil companies

andthe workerswere in deadlock.I wentto the ConsulGeneral, a chapby the nameof Willjams,and asked him what was the

situation. He saido "I don't know,but Connor,whom you glg know,is acting as the arbiter betweenthe two sides. I'm .|34

sureyou can get to Connor. l,tle'llcall him up right now." Connorsaid that I wouldmeet him at the UniversityClub at

4:00--butbe sure to comein the backway; he didn't wantany- bodyto knowwe weretalking. Andso, whenwe got together he sajd, "I amcertain Ct'rdenasis goingon the air Sunday night at 6:00 over radio to announcethat expropriationis taking place. I'm absolutelycertain that thjs js goingto happen." Wegot throughwith the businessand broke up. I wentback to the U.S. Embassyto talk to SteveAguirre and

JosephusDaniels. i said, "Haveyou any idea that expropriation is about to comeoff?" Andin the meantimeI had wired the NorthernfipqricanNewspaper Alliance and the D.etroitNe_ws that I knewfexpropriation] was qoinq to happen--Iwas certain it wasgoing to happen,and howmuch did they wanton it. Theywired back that they didnrt wantanything because all the Americanpeople were interested in was FDR'sattempt to packthe SupremeCourt andthere wouldn'tbe any interest in this story. Youcan imaginehow I felt. I said, "0h, the hell with ito" andde- cided to spendthe weekendin Cuernavaca.But in the meantime

I hadtalked to JosephusDaniels and he said I wasjust dreaming--therewouldn't be anythinglike that. ThenI got a call from him at Cuernavacaabout the middleof the afternoon on Sunday...no,it wason Saturday,I guess,that he wasmaking the speech. Youcan checkup on the dates whenCfrdenas was makingthe speech. I got a call from Danielsto comeover to MexicoCity--he wantedto seeme. Hewas all brokenup, crying like a baby. .|35

E: Hewas actually crying?

M: Yes,sir, crying. Hesajd his careerwas in ruinsi he said, "HereI amreach'ing nearly the end of the road and this has

happenedto meand it's a total d'isaster." I said, "Mr. Ambas- sador,you've just got it al1 wrong." J told him whathad

happenedin mydealings w'ith the newspapersin the UnitedStates-- that they werenrteven interested in the story. I said, "That's

iust howsmall a thing this is to the Americanpublic right now. You'll find out jt's not qo'inqto hurt you onebit." That

cheeredhjm up. But SteveAguirre, whowas his private secretary, wasan old friend of minefrom El Paso,and I couldn-'-timagine Aquirrenot beingable to get to the peoplewho could keepthe

Ambassadoradvisedfon such an importantmatter.]

E: WasSteve Aquirre MexicanAmerican?

M: Yes. [He was] a very wel'l knownkid in El Pasowhen I wasgrow- ing up. [I thoughtthe world of him.] Doyou knowwhat becameof him? I think he djed aboutten yearsago. Doyou haveany idea if he wouldhave fam'i1y in El Paso?

I'm sure he has, Ves. I'm sure the family is still here. We'll haveto follow that up. General,you oncemade a comment

to methat you consideredJosephus Daniels one of the most

o." naive menyou ever knew. Wasthat the basjs forit?

M: I guessso, but there wereother conversations. I wasat dinnerwith him a numberof t'imesand there wasjust an a'ir of ingenuousnessabout him whenit cameto world affairs.

Anotherexample: telljng meto tell FrankMurphy that he'd support 136

him for President of the United States whenhe had never

met Murphy--hehad no idea what he was like. I'd call that

i ngenuous. E: This is interestingbecause Josephus Danielsn of course,was Secretaryof the Navyat the time of the Americaninvasion of .|914. VeraCruz jn l9l4--in Apri'l of I don't knowwhat bear- ing this insight into his charactermay have on the history of

that particular affair, but perhapshistorians shouldtake note of it. Did you ever meetMr. Danielsafter this inc'identin I 938?

M: No. I met him immediatelyafter that. I methfm within the next weekor so whenhis feelings werevery muchrelieved and he was onceaqa'in happy.

E: In MexicoCity?

M. That's right. But I neversaw him againin the UnitedStates that I recall. I thoughta lot of him; I enjoyedhim very

much. If I said he wasnaTve I wasiust thinking out loud. Hewas nui'u., but he wasalso a very, very likeable gentleman. He told me, for instance, that the reasonthat he had taken the

Embassyin MexicoCity wasbecause he had neverrea11y stored

up anymoney in his ljfe. He fiqured that downthere he could

savearound $201000 a year. That waswhy it attracted him. Is it your opinionthat this naivetdhad any bearingon his competence? 0h, I think so. I think, for instance,the VeraCruz expedition wasvery ill-advised. 137

ts- But somewould have it that WoodrowWilson was more responsible than anyoneelse for that.

M: We'|1"I imaqinethat's true. But if the Secretaryof the Navy takes a strong position on the matter that could havechanged

the President'smind.[It mighthave restrained him.] tr. That's very interesting, General. Did you ever haveoccasion

to meetDwight Morrow? 0f course, this vvasbefore the '30s. No. Thelate '30s.

No. Theonly other Ambassadorthat I knewwas Wamen. Did you ever meetLindbergh? Yes.

Wheredid you meetCharles Lindbergh?

I methim in an',app1eorchard at Royal0ak, Michigan--thefirst crashthat he'd hadafter his trans-Atlanticflight. I thought

he wasa stuffed shirt fromthe word"90." I didn't like anyth'ingabout him--highly opinionated, imperious, nasty. Hewas as nasty as the peoplearound him on that occasion. Theidea of talking to the presswas, to him, repugnant.He was in a plane

with GeorgeLandfair, Major GeorgeLandfair. I talked to Land- fair at great lengthabout the accident,but not to Lindbergh... oh, a little bit. As soonas he foundout I wasfrom the press... I wasthere alone; I just happenedto be passingby and sawa planeland in the fieldso so I got a scoopout of it. It was his first crash, or first forcedlandingo after he becamefamous.

Younever met h'is wifen AnnJtlorrow? 138

M: No- Shemust haVe been a remarkablewoman to suffer him all thoseyears -

E: 0f coursershe wasAmbassador Morrow's daughter- Youonce mentionedto me, General,that you wereacquainted with Fran-

c j sco t{rfji ca. M: Yes. E: Whatwere the circumstancesof your meetingwith him? M: I met him on several occasions,always 'in MexicoCity. I never sawhim outsideof MexicoCity' and it wason official business whereI'd go on to himwith something--questionsthat I wanted

answersto. Hewas pleasant accord'ing to his lights. t

said a few minutesago that he alwaysstruck meas a frustrated college professortype--a very unhappymanr VQl"! solemn-faced,

very brief in conversation,courteous enough but neverextending himself; no warmthto his personalityat a]l. Hewas not an

imposingfigure in any senseof the word.

E: Whatposition was he holdingat this time? M: I don't remember.I think he was in the Secretariat and I

thjnk it wasEducation, but I'm not sure. E: lnJecan look that up. Soyour visits to Mexicoterm'inated in

1938?

M: That's right.

F. Andyou wentback to Detroit after your last visjt to Mexico?

M: That's right. tr. Couldyou tell us, moreor less, whatare your recollections aboutbe'ing a newspapermanfor Detroitrs leading newspaperlead- ing up to WorldWar II? Wereyou writing on military affairs? 139

M: Not at all. I hadno chanceto. Thepress of the UnitedStates

wasnot interestedin military copy; it still isn't interested in military copy. It doesn'tunderstand it. Theaverage editor

of the UnitedStates is antj-military in thoughtand philosophy. I wrote as much,I guess,dS gryone.dido but I wouldwrite feature stories mainly, out of mycontacts with the MexicanArmy and the UnitedStates Army--thepeople at Fort Bliss or the

SpanishArmy where I wasworking as a correspondent. E: Youmentioned the SpanishArmy. Youwere witness to someevents in the SpanishCivil War,weren't you? M: That's right.

E: Whatyear wasthis, General? .|936 M: andthe early part of'37. I got there in Augustand I think I left in February. E: Let's go acrossthe oceanfor a while, fromMexico. What washappening in Spainat that time? Whatwas the military situation at the time that you amived?

M: Themi1 itary situation seemedto be hard set againstthe so- called Loyalistsat that time. Theywere holding fairly well

at Teruel. This wasat the t'imewhen the Generalwho

precededFranco [Mola] was killed, I think, in an air crash; then Francotook over. It waswhile I wasat Araujuezthat Quiepo de Llanogot on the air andtalked aboutMadrid being the next target and that this Generalhad four columnsmarch'ing on Madridand a fifth columninsjde the city that wasgoing to turn.

Therewere five of us comespondentsat Araujuez. Wepicked it

up on the radio. Weturned "the fifth column"jnto a household expressionso that by the time WorldWar II camealong it 140

was[a householdexpression]. It did look to mostof the correspondents at that time that Madridwas about to fall. It didn't to me.

I wrote from Spainand I sawno chanceof Madridfalling with-

in the next twoyears and I wascertainft wouldnot happen]. tr. So it didnrt look to you ljke Madridwas going to fall?

M: I wascertain it wouldnot fall within two years. I thought

that it wasa strongenough bastjon mil itarily that there was no possibility of it beingtaken in mainstrength by the people whohad started the war. But at the sametime I was writing that the Loyalist causewas defeated--and it wouldbe

defeatedwithin about two years. Mycalculations on that came

from the fact that I had seenthe last cotton delivered to the docksof Barcelona--thelast shipmentof any materiel from the outside, and I knewthat all of the war material that the Loyal- jsts coulddepend on wasalready in Spainand they couldn't

possiblydo it with whatthey had. By that time, the Russian . influence there wasalready very pronounced.They came in .|936. aroundOctober or November,

E: I'd like to go backfor just a secondto that term "the fifth column." So that wasreal'ly wherethe term wascoined? M: Yes.

E: Andfour or five Americannewsmen were the oneswho did it? M: That's right. A coupleof themwere Englishmen. E: WasErnest Hemingway in that group?

M: No. Hehadn't arrived in Spainyet. E: Aboutwhat year did he arrive? t4l

M: Hearrived iust after I left. I didn't seehim in Spain. E: Younever sawErnest Hemingway in Spain?

M: No- E: Youdid knowhim' however,later in WorldWar II? M: That's right. We1'|,I hadknown him beforeSpain. I told you aboutthe conversationswe hadhad in Keytrlest where he told me

that he wouldnot go over becausehe had friends on both sides andhe didn't haveany feeling at all aboutthe war. Thatwas his viewpointat that tjme. That's whenI told you he wasa

chameleon-li ke character.

E: Veryinterestjng, General. I think th'is is a goodtime to

breaktoday's interv'iew. I want to thankyou. M: 0K, sir.