University of Texas at El Paso ScholarWorks@UTEP Combined Interviews Institute of Oral History 7-1975 Interview no. 181 S. L. A. Marshall Follow this and additional works at: https://scholarworks.utep.edu/interviews Part of the Cultural History Commons, Diplomatic History Commons, Oral History Commons, Political History Commons, Social and Behavioral Sciences Commons, and the Social History Commons Recommended Citation Interview with S. L. A. Marshall by Richard Estrada, 1975, "Interview no. 181," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso. This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Institute of Oral History at ScholarWorks@UTEP. It has been accepted for inclusion in Combined Interviews by an authorized administrator of ScholarWorks@UTEP. For more information, please contact [email protected]. UNIVERSITYOFTEXAS AT EL PASO INSTITUTEOF ORALHISTORY INTERVIEI'IEE: Briq. Gen.S. 1.3. Marshall (lq0Q-J924 INTERVI EI,IER: RichardEstrada PROJECT: .|9. DATEOF IIITERVIEIJ: July 5, 7, 9, .ll. and 1975 TERI'{SOF USE: Unrestricted TAPENO.: 181 TRANSCRIPTIIO.: l8t TRAIISCRIBER: Irma Herndndezand RhgndaHartman .|975. DATETRANSCRIBED: Julv. Auoustand November. BIOGRAPHICALSYNOPSIS OF INTERVIEI{EE: Military historian. SUilll"lARY0F II,ITERVIEt^l: B'iography;encounters with PanchoVilla; FelipeAngeles and Jose Vascon- celos; Albert BaconFall; PershingExpedition; Columbus Raid; Ciudad Juarezin the teensand 1920's; effect of the railroad on El Paso;Zack LamarCobb; Zack White; prominent men in El Pasoin l9l5; sentirnentin El Pasotoward the MexicanRevolution; Pascual 0rozco; orientals and blacksin El Pasoduring the teens; crossingthe internationalbridge; Emil HolmdahltSam Dreben; General Pershing; prejudice against Mexicans; the El PasoHerald Post vs. the El PasoTimes; friendliness of El Paso; Chris Pl-Fox;-TFurffi-to El pasoaffir-forta War I; newspaperwork; Ku Klux Klan; the Depression;Copper baseball league; re-enlisting as a private in the NationalGuard; humor columnist; origin of nickname"Slam"; RevindicationRevolutjon; Prohjb'ition; cultural advantagesof El Paso; Lawson-Jacksonfight; Tiger Flowers-GorillaJones fight; useof marijuana; 51/2 hours. continues l4l pages next page. prostitution jn the 1920's;work wjth the Detroit News;World War II military broadcastcolumn; trips to Mexico-aid'cond'itionsthere; SherwoodAnderson; Ulises Irigoyen;L. M. Lawson;the UnitedNations; El Paso-CiudadJuarez relations; Cedillo; oi1 expropriations; JosephusDaniels; Charles Lindberg; Francisco Muj'ica; Spanish Civil trJar;Ernest Hemingway. BI CENTENNIAL F. GeneralMarshall, what is the origin of your name: Marshall? Haveyou ever lookedit up? M: It's, I think, Norman."Marshall" comes from the sameroot as "constable"and so on. A marshall,in feudal times, wasthe head of the infantry in a lord's household,just as the constablewas the headof the cavalry. You'll find the name,inciaentattv,in everylanguage; it's in Chinese,in Japanes€,in Portuguese, in Spanish,in Italian. It's a persistentname over the 91obe. E: That's very interesting. To whatsocial class did your parents belong? Couldyou tell mesomethinq about your parents? I couldn't say that they belongedto any social class. Mymother, as far as pedigreewas concerned, came from an old Americanfamily. Theywere Mayflower people, the original GamelialBeeman. She was a memberof the DARand these various other organizations. tr. So her ancestorsactually cameover on the Mayflower? M: That's right. Andpractically everyBeeman in the UnitedStates is related to me. Mymother's family waswell awareof the'ir ancestry. My father vvasan Englishman,born in Eng'land.He cameto this countryat the age of sixteen. He nevertalked aboutmy family in Enqland,so I knewnothing about them. I knowI hadan Unc'le Sam over there. Dadwas an Americanfrom the wordgo. That was one reasonthat he neverwent'into family affairs. Hewas a very strongman physically, and the best mindthat I ever ran into. Both my brother and I qot our vocabularyfrom my father, not from the schoolsystem, because I had verv litile inqtfsh in school. He wasthe best-spokenman I ever knew. I didn't get to knowmy British relatives until I wentover there in Worldlrlar I. MyUncle Sambrought up the questionif my father hadever talked aboutthe fami1y. I told him, "No." So he said, "I'II give you a run down on it." I hada lot of relatives in Englandat that time. He wasthe onewho told methat my grandmother,my dad's mother,was from the l,ledgewoodfamily; I th'ink shewas the nieee of Darwin's wife. I hadn't knownthat until that time. E: CharlesDarwin? M: Yes. Andthat's aboutit. Thefamily--our family--was not at any time a family of means. I wasnot awarewe werewhat you would call a poor fam'ilytoday. But oddlyenough we traveledall over the UnitedStates from the time I wasa baby. E: Andyou wereborn in Catskill, NewYork? M: Catskill, NewYork. E: in I 900? M: In 1900,and the recordwould make a researcherbelieve that we lived there until mybrother was born eioht years later because he wasalso born in Catskill, NewYork. But I wasthere briefly for only a few weeks. Thenwe movedto NewHampshire, then to Maine, then to Baltimore,then to SouthCarolina, then to Colorado,and from there to California andthen to El Paso. E: Well, whatwas the natureof your father's businessto... M: Well, jt wasthis... Hewas an expert--probablythe brightestmind in the businessin clay mach'inery,and the nnkingof bricks and tile. He becamean expert for the AmericanClay Mach'ineryCompany, 3 whichsold practically a1l the blay machineryin the UnitedStates at that time. Wheneverthey wouldsell the machineryto a new plant they wouldusual'ly get a mortqaqeon it, and then the com- panywou'ld start losing moneyand they'd sendDad there to straighten it out. By the time he wouldget it in the black, they wereready for him to moveon to someother place. tr. Did the entire family movewith your father every time? M: Usuallywe'd move a few weeksor monthsbehind him. Theonly time that I movedout aheadof the family with him is whenwe camefrom California to El Paso. l^lewere here six monthsahead of the rest . of the family. This kind of thing fs supposedto be unstabilizing to a chjld. It hadjust the other effect 0n me. I think that was the big advantageI got out of myyouth becauseI had a chance for adventureon my own. And that started at age five whenvve were living in SouthCarolina in a small towncalled Killrian, iust outside of Columbia,and I got in the habit of roamingthe fields andthe woodspretty muchon my ownor with a boy companion. I can remem- ber at the ageof six cominqacross a Civil l,rlarcanon ball in the woodsdown there. This little pa1and I built a fjre andthrew the canonball in to see if it wouldexplode. 0f courseit didn't explode;it wasa roundshot. I use that as an illustration of what set meon the coursethat I followed. Fromthat time on I think I lived a morecarefree life than mostchildren did. Wemoved back to Catskill andwe were there onceagain briefly. I wasstill jn the habit of goinqout on myown. Then,when we moved to Boulder, Colorado--thiswas at the ageof eiqht. Welived there from the time I waseiqht till the time I wastwelve. In thoseyears I got in the habit of mountainclimbinq and hunting gamewith a rifle. I say "big game"--Imean wildcats, andporcupine and so on--in the mountains. Gamewas abundant at that time. E: Soyou've always 1ed a moreor less adventurouslife? M: That's ri ght. E: Couldyou tell mein whatyear did you cometo El Paso? M: Wel1,I shouldfirst te11you aboutCalifornia. E: All right, sir. Goriqht ahead. M: Wewere there anotherthree years whenwe went to Niles, California, wherethere wasa b'ig brick p1ant. That wasthe westernbranch of WesternEssanay Company which was turning out Westernmotion pic- tures. Thefirst Westernmotion pictures werethe "BroncoBilly" picturesand the "snakeville"comedies that weremade by the film 'industryanywhere. This wasbefore Hollywoodbecame Hollywood. I washired as a juvenile whenI wasin the eighth gradesimply becauseI passeda better screentest than any other boy in the ejghth qrade. Theywere looking for anotherjuvenile. Andso I .l9.l2, beganworking as a motionpicrture actor in andcontinued it un- til we cameto El Paso. I think that wasone reasonthat my father movedfrom California andcame here. Hewas afraid that the life at the studioswould ruin me. Whereas,if we'd stayedthere I mighthave become governor of California. I don't doubtit. Whatyear did you cometo El Pasothen? .|9.|5. Early .I9.l5. Early Doyou havean recollections about... Verydefinite ones. Couldyou tell meabout them? Yes, the International Brick Companywas located downnext to the boundary,riqht next to what is nowthe Chamizalzone. 5 Thel6th Infantry wasat CampCotton. Thatwas'its basecamp and that is in whatis nowthe Chamizalzone. Thatwas about two hundredyards fromthe brick p1ant. SinceDad was here alone, he hadqotten acquainted with the l6th Infantry andhe waseating his mealsat the messof F Company,l6th Infantry. This wasmy first contactwith U.S. soldiers. So I dinedevery day at the mess. So at the aqeof fourteenI wasbecoming well acquaintedwith soldierinq. I waspretty matureby that time. I hadmy fu11 growth. I was, I guessa little bit cockyand self confident. I becameaccustomed to being aroundthe military and I rememberthe peoplein that Companyvery we11. I wasnot interestedin soldiering. I had neverthought of myselfas a mifitary person. I hadnever played with toy soldiers or anythingof that kind. But beingwith the .l9.|6, uniformbecamea natural thing to me. In as a civiliano I was playingright fjeld on the Fort Bliss baseballteam--still with no idea of ever becominqa soldier. But I rememberthat within the first weekof hitt'ing E1 Pasoand meeting the Army,I also went to Jufrez on ny ownat fourteenoto explore that. TelI us abouti t. We11,the th'ird experiencewas a badone. I wasat the BlackCat fGatoNegro] in Juirez--whichwas a cafdwith a small gambling establishment--atthe corner wherethe street car turns, and right next to the Biq Kid's establishment.It wasowned bv Villa.