DAILY

YOUR VOICE IN PARLIAMENT

THE SECOND MEETING OF THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT WEDNESDAY 08 MARCH 2017

MIXED VERSION HANSARD NO. 187

DISCLAIMER Uno cial Hansard This transcript of Parliamentary proceedings is an uno cial version of the Hansard and may contain inaccuracies. It is hereby published for general purposes only. The nal edited version of the Hansard will be published when available and can be obtained from the Assistant Clerk (Editorial). THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Gladys K. T. Kokorwe MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Kagiso P. Molatlhegi, MP Gaborone South

Clerk of the National Assembly -- Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly -- Ms T. Tsiang Learned Parliamentary Counsel -- Mr S. Chikanda Assistant Clerk (E) -- Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Lt. Gen. Dr. S. K. I. Khama PH, FOM, --President DCO, DSM, MP. His Honour M. E. K. Masisi, MP. (Moshupa- -Vice President Manyana) - Hon. Dr. P. Venson-Moitoi, MP. (Serowe South) --Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon. S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti North) --Minister of Local Government and Rural Development

Hon. N. E. Molefhi, MP. (Selebi Phikwe East) --Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Hon. S. Kgathi, MP. (Bobirwa) --Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon. O. K. Mokaila, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. P. M. Maele, MP. (Lerala - Maunatlala) --Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Hon. E. J. Batshu, MP. (Nkange) --Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon. D. K. Makgato, MP. (Sefhare - Ramokgonami) --Minister of Health and Wellness -Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation and Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. (Serowe West) - Tourism

Hon. V. T. Seretse, MP. (Mmopane - Lentsweletau) --Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Hon. O. K. Matambo, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of Finance and Economic Development -Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. T. Mabeo, MP. (Thamaga - Kumakwane) - Development

Hon. T. Olopeng, MP. (Tonota) --Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development - Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Specially Elected) - Administration Hon. Dr. U. Dow, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of Basic Education Hon. P. P. Ralotsia, MP. (Kanye North) --Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Hon. Dr. A. Madigele, MP. (Mmathethe - -Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology Molapowabojang) - -Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Energy Hon. S. Kebonang, MP. (Lobatse) - Security Hon. D. P. Makgalemele, MP (Shoshong) --Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP (Serowe North) --Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Security Hon. B. M. Tshireletso, MP. (Mahalapye East) --Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development Hon. F. S. Van Der Westhuizen, MP. (Kgalagadi South) --Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development Hon. M. M. Goya, MP. (Palapye) --Assistant Minister, Basic Education -Assistant Minister, Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP (Shashe West) - Technology -Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. T. Kwerepe, MP (Ngami) - Administration -Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP (Mmadinare) - Development -Assistant Minister, Land Management, Water and Sanitation Hon. I. E. Moipisi, MP (Kgalagadi North) - Services Hon. G. B. Butale, MP (Tati West) --Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party) Hon. S. M. Guma, MP Tati East Hon. C. De Graaff, MP Ghanzi South Hon. L. Kablay, MP Letlhakeng - Lephephe Hon. M. N. Ngaka, MP Takatokwane Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP Boteti East Hon. J. Molefe, MP Mahalapye West Hon. K. Markus, MP Maun East Hon. P. Majaga, MP Nata-Gweta Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP Francistown West Hon. B. H. Billy, MP Francistown East Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP Chobe Hon. B. Arone, MP Okavango Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP Specially Elected Hon. B. J. Kenewendo, MP Specially Elected OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. Adv. D. G. Boko, MP (Leader of Opposition) Gaborone Bonnington North Hon. G. S. M. Mangole, MP Mochudi West Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP Francistown South Hon. A. S. Kesupile, MP Kanye South Hon. N. S. L. M. Salakae, MP Ghanzi North Hon. Maj. Gen. P. Mokgware, MP Gabane-Mmankgodi Hon. Dr. T. O. M. Mmatli, MP Molepolole South Hon. S. Ntlhaile, MP Jwaneng -Mabutsane Hon. M. I. Khan, MP Molepolole North Hon. H. G. Nkaigwa, MP Gaborone North Hon. I. J. Davids, MP Mochudi East Hon. N. N. Gaolathe, MP Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. S. Kgoroba, MP Mogoditshane Hon. Dr P. Butale, MP Gaborone Central Hon. Kgosi Lotlamoreng II Goodhope - Mabule Vacant Tlokweng (Botswana Congress Party) Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP Selebi Phikwe West Hon. S. O. S. Rantuana, MP Ramotswa (Independent Member of Parliament) Hon. T. Moremi, MP Maun West TABLE OF CONTENTS SECOND MEETING OF THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT WEDNESDAY 08 MARCH 2017

CONTENTS PAGE (S)

SPEAKER’S ANNOUNCEMENTS...... 1

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 1 - 9

Organization 1100 -Ministry of Health and Wellness Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)...... 10 - 15

Organisation 1200: Administration of Justice Committee of Supply...... 16 - 27

Organisation 1300 – Attorney General’s Chambers Committee of Supply...... 28 - 35

TABLING OF PAPERS Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure from the Consolidated Fund – Financial Paper No. 4 of 2015/2016...... 7

Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure from the Consolidated Fund – Financial Paper No. 3 of 2016/2017...... 7

Wednesday 8th March, 2017 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Wednesday 8th March, 2017 iii) the total amount of money deposited with Botswana banks. THE ASSEMBLY met at 2:00 p.m. ACTING MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES, (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) GREEN TECHNOLOGY AND ENERGY P R A Y E R S SECURITY (MR MOLEFHI): Mr Speaker, De Beers Global Sightholder Sales (DBGSS) hosts sales ten * * * * (10) times a year, taking place every five (5) weeks. These selling events are known as Sights. Since the SPEAKER’S ANNOUNCEMENTS establishment of Diamond Trading Company Botswana, (relocation of De Beers from London) to date, a total of MR SPEAKER (MR MOLATLHEGI): Dumelang thirty-four (34) Sights have been held in Botswana. Batlotlegi Mapalamente. Ke na le dikitsiso di le pedi letsatsi leno. Ya ntlha ke ya gore kamoso ga re na i) De Beers Global Sightholder Sales has in their General Assembly. books, ninety-four (94) customers who attend Sights as and when they have an allocation. Each Ya bobedi ke gore Modulasetilo wa Komiti ya Bomme Sight takes five (5) days on average. Plus or minus ba Palamente e, o le laletsa segopotso sa Letsatsi la ninety per cent (90) of the De Beers customers Mafatshefatshe la Bomme, le le tlaabong le tshwaretswe attend the Sight. Further, each customer is gone mo mabaleng a Palamente kamoso ka 9 o’clock. represented by plus or minus three (3) people who Borre lotlhe, le kopiwa gore le tle go etleetsa bomme. will carry out the valuation of diamonds being La borre le tlaa tla nako e le tlaabong le le rulagantse. A sold. This means that a total of 250 plus or minus, re tsogeng re rotloetsa bomme ba rona. A re tsweleleng attend the Sight on behalf of their respective le tiro ka dipotso batlotlegi. companies. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification! ii) Sightholders spend, on average, one (1) night in MR SPEAKER: Nnyaa, mo announcements ga go na Botswana. The length of their stay however is clarification Honourable Spuna. influenced by other commitments they may have HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker! in the country. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation! iii) Sightholders settle all their diamond sales from DBGSS through Botswana local banks and the MR SPEAKER: Nnyaa, ga go na elucidation, procedure amount transacted depend on the size of the le point of order; straight forward announcements, di Sight. Since relocation of the Diamond Trading tseyeng jaaka di ntse. Company to Botswana, that is up to the end of HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker, 2016, a total of approximately US$15 billion has the Order Paper is irregular. been settled through Botswana banks. I thank you Mr Speaker. MR SPEAKER: Nnyaa, ga go na irregularity mo Order Paper. A re simololeng tiro ka dipotso. MR NTLHAILE: Supplementary. Tona, re tlhalosetse gore bareki ba diteemane fa ba reka diteemane tsa QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER lefatshe la Botswana, re tlaa itse jang gore ba rekile TOTAL NUMBER OF DIAMOND SIGHTS dife? A go na le buka e e kwalelang gore re rekisitswe HELD ANNUALLY SINCE RELOCATION TO diteemane tse kae? BOTSWANA MR MOLEFHI: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo. MR S. NTLHAILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Diteemane tsotlhe tse di rekisiwang di tswa ka asked the Minister of Mineral Resources, Green setlankana sa Kimberley Process, go rurifatsa tlholego Technology and Energy Security to brief this Honourable le tlhwatlhwa ya tsone. Ke a leboga. House on the total number of diamond sights held MR NTLHAILE: Further supplementary. Potso e annually since the relocation of the Diamond Trading nngwe Tona ke gore o re tlhomamisetse gore diteemane tse Company to Botswana and to further state:- fa re di rekisa jaana, ke eng fa gompieno re bona bangwe i) the total number of sight-holders at each sight; ba ba mo Khuduthamageng ya Party ya Domkrag? E bile gape bangwe ba bone ba mo Khuduthamageng ya ii) the length of their stay in the country; and Debswana. A gone mo, go ka dira gore Batswana ba nne

Hansard No 187 1 Wednesday 8th March, 2017 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

le tshepho ya gore diteemane tsotlhe tse di rekisiwang, MR S. NTLHAILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): madi a tsone a tsena mo letloleng la Botswana kana a asked the Minister of Mineral Resources, Green mangwe a ya kwa Botswana Democratic Party (BDP)? Technology and Energy Security if he is aware of any diamonds originating from Botswana sold or auctioned MR MOLEFHI: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo, mo in foreign countries since 2014; if so, to state:- lefatsheng leno, mongwe le mongwe o na le kgololesego ya go tsena mo kgwebong e a nang le kgatlhego le i) the total number and value of such diamonds by bokgoni mo go yone. category, including exceptional ones; and

Sa bobedi, ga go na melelwane e e farologanyang ii) who represented Botswana in such sales or deals. bagwebi ka ditumelo tsa bone tsa sepolotiki, gore ba ka se ka ba tsena mo phathing e, ba tsene mo go e. ACTING MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES, GREEN TECHNOLOGY AND ENERGY Jaaka ke ne ke tlhalosa, go na le thulaganyo e diteemane SECURITY (MR MOLEFHI): Mr Speaker, De Beers di rekwang ka yone; a di rekwa e le tsa De Beers kana tsa Global Sightholder Sales aggregates productions from dikompone tse dingwe tse di rekang ka nako ya thekiso. Botswana that is from Debswana, Canada, Namibia and Dithulaganyo tseo tsa go reka ga bagwebi, go laolwa ke South Africa. The aggregated diamonds are then sold to dikompone le dikgwebo tsa tsone. Jaaka ke ne ke supa, international diamontaires through the De Beers offices go na le dikompone tse e leng bareki ba De Beers ka fa located in Botswana (De Beers Global Sightholder ba kwadilweng ka teng; ninety-four (94) customers ba Sales), Namibia (Namibia Diamond Trading Company), ba teng, ba ba kwadisitsweng ka fa molaong. Singapore (De Beers Auction Sales) and South Africa (De Beers Global Sightholder Sales). In view of the Gore fa dikompone tse di sena go reka, di rekisetsa fact that Botswana diamonds are aggregated into De dikompone tse di potlana dife, ga se mo go laolwang Beers mixture, indeed the diamonds originating from ke tsamaiso e ya kgwebo. Ka jalo he, ga ke ka ke ka Botswana have been sold or auctioned in foreign re ope o dira sepe ka tshokamo. Mo kitsong ya me go countries. tla go fitlha gompieno, ga ke itse fa thekiso epe e e ka bong e lebanye Debswana, e madi a yone ao a isiwa kwa i) In view of the foregoing, I am unable to quantify Phathing ya Domkrag. the total number and value of diamonds sold or auctioned in foreign countries since 2014. MR NTLHAILE: Further supplementary. Tona, a ko o re bolelele gore go pala eng gore kompone ya De Beers ii) De Beers has two (2) shareholders, Anglo ka gore e rekisa diteemane tsa rona re le Batswana, American (85 per cent) and the Government of financial statements tsa Debswana le De Beers, nako the Republic of Botswana (15 per cent). Through e tlaa tla leng gore di gatisiwe di bo di nne open and the De Beers Global Sightholder Sales network, accessible to the public, fela jaaka dikompone tse aggregated diamonds are sold globally by De dingwe di dira ka gore ke letlotlo la Botswana? Beers, representing both Anglo American and the Government of Botswana. MR MOLEFHI: Ke dumela gore ngwaga le ngwaga Mr Speaker, let me also mention that all diamond sales dikompone tse e leng dikgwebo tsa Puso, re neelwa conducted by Okavango Diamond Company have annual reports tsa bone mo ba supang teng dikgwebo, taken place in Botswana. Sales of diamonds by other mme fa e le gore go na le sengwe se motlotlegi a bonang entities are through channels approved by the Minister se tlhaela, go na le dikomiti tsa Palamente tse di ka responsible for minerals and Government is not bitsang gore go tle go dirwe jalo, ba tle go neelwa pego represented at such sales or auctions. I thank you. eo ya bone e tle go nna foo. Ke dumela gore De Beers MR NTLHAILE: Supplementary. Tona ke ne ke re o re ka gore ga se ya ga Goromente, books of accounts le tlhomamisetse gore fa e le gore Goromente wa Botswana financial statements di neelwa shareholders. Debswana ga a kgone go itse gore diteemane tse di rekisitsweng as a public company, dithulaganyo tseo fa Palamente kwa mafatsheng a sele ke tsa bokete jo bokae, ke tsa e di batla, go na le tse e sa di tlhomamiseng from tlhwatlhwa e e kae, re tlaa tlhomamisa jang re le their financial reports, ke dumela gore Parliamentary Batswana gore diteemane ga di re tswe ka diphatlha tsa Committee e e lebaganeng le boikarabelo joo e ka bitsa menwana e bile madi mangwe ga e re a tshwanetse gore gore mookamedi wa Debswana a tle go re neela pego a boele kwano a ba a tsena golo gongwe, mo polaseng eo. ya mongwe o teng gone fa ke a mmona? Ke ne ke re re tlhalosediwe... SALE OR AUCTION OF BOTSWANA DIAMONDS IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure.

2 Hansard No 187 Wednesday 8th March, 2017 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Ntlhaile, selo se o Government of Botswana at 15 per cent of the sales se dirang ga se sone. Ke rile o botse supplementary tsa diteemane mo lefatsheng la Botswana, De Beers question, jaanong wena you are now imputing improper representing 85 per cent of the sales... motives mo go ba bangwe. Emelela and withdraw mafoko ao, mme o botse supplementary question e e MR SPEAKER: Rraetsho, short question, ga re na tshwanetseng e seng se o se buang. nako.

MR NTLHAILE: Mr Speaker, I did not impute MR NKAIGWA: Ke batla gore a re tlhalosetse. improper motives, ga ke a bua ope ka leina. MR SPEAKER: Short question, botsa potso. MR SPEAKER: Rraetsho, dira jaaka ke go laetse. MR NKAIGWA: Mr Speaker, kana go botlhokwa gore... MR NTLHAILE: Okay, se ke neng ke batla go se tlhaloganya Mr Speaker ke gore... MR SPEAKER: Honourable Nkaigwa... MR SPEAKER: Honourable Ntlhaile, withdraw ale a MR NKAIGWA: Motho yo o ntse a sa arabe sentle. ntlha o bo o botsa potso ya gago e e siameng. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Nkaigwa, ask your short MR NTLHAILE: Se ke batlang go se tlhaloganya ke supplementary question, o se ka wa nganga. gore Tona a re tlhomamisetse ka gore a re ga a kgone go MR NKAIGWA: Se ke lekang go se tlhalosa, se re bolelela gore tota diteemane tse lefatshe la Botswana motlotlegi a batlang go se itse ke gore, the 85 per cent le di rekisang kwa ntle, ke tsa selekanyo sa tlhwatlhwa wa diteemane tsa lefatshe la Botswana, how can you e e kae. Ke re Batswana ba tlaa tlhomamisa jang gore account for it, ka gore tsa Okavango Diamond Company mme diteemane tse di rekisiwang ka kwa ntle madi a di direlwa kwano, tsa De Beers ga di direlwe kwano. Ke tsone otlhe a boela mo lefatsheng la Botswana? sone se o bonang De Beers e ntse e iketlile, e sa batle go MR MOLEFHI: Mr Speaker, ke tlhalositse gore rekisa diteemane from 2014 up to now. diteemane tse di kgobokanyetswang mo Botswana di tswa kwa Canada, South Africa le Namibia, mme fa di MR MOLEFHI: Motlotlegi o ka bo a botsa potso e sena go kgobokanyetswa mono, aggregation e ke neng ntsha a bo a tla a tlhalosetswa tsamaiso ya thekiso ya ke bua ka yone, go tswa fa jaanong bareki bale ba Sight Okavango Diamond Company. Ke ne ke tlhalosa gore Holders fa ba sena go reka diteemane, ba di reka ka go Okavango Diamond Company, mo diteemaneng tse e a tlhakatlhakana ga tsone, jalo he, thekiso e diragalela bong e di neetswe, e di rekisetsa mono gae. Go tswa mono. Fa ba tswa fa ba ya go rekisa kwa mafatsheng foo jaanong ka re, De Beers ka jaanong e a bo e tsere a sele, jaanong e a bo e setse e dule mo go rona. Ga e serwe sa yone, jaaka ke ne ke tlhalosa mo potsong ya ka ke ya re re tswa fa re bo re re o rekile teemane e le ntlha ya kgantele le ya bobedi ya gompieno, ke ne ke nngwefela fa, jaanong o ile go e rekisa kwa England tlhalosa gore go tswa foo jaanong, these aggregated kana o ile India ka yone kana o ile Singapore, ka gore diamonds di rekiwa ke ba bangwe. Ba ba di rekang ba theko e e dirwang fano, e a bo e dirwa go tswa fa ba e leng customers tsa De Beers, ba na le thekiso kwa bo ba di kopanya tsotlhe tse ba tlaabong ba di rekile mafatsheng a sele, jaanong gone kwa mafatsheng a sele fano. Ke sone se ke neng ke se tlhalosa gore ga go koo, ga ke ka ke ka latedisa lekgabana lengwe le lengwe nne motlhofo gore e re theko e diragala le auctions gore gone koo le rekilwe ke mang, le ile kwa kae. That kwa mafatsheng a sele, re bo re setse lekgabana le le is all that I was explaining. lengwefela morago gore re itse gore lengwe le lengwe le ile kae ka gore theko ya makgabana a a teemane e HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. diragalela mono, mme fa ba tswa fa ba di kgobokanya tsotlhe le tse dingwe tse ba a bong ba di rekile. Ke gone MR SPEAKER: Nnyaa, ke ne ke rile ke ya bofelo. ka moo ke reng, ga go nne motlhofo gore re bo re ka Honourable Majaga! latedisa gore lekgabana lengwe le lengwe la teemane, MR MAJAGA: Thank you Mr Speaker. This question moreki wa lone mono yo o ileng India ka lone go ya was dealt with before Parliament. Thank you. go dira mekgabisa koo, ene fa a tsena koo o le rekisetsa mang. That is what I was saying. MALFUNCTIONG OF INTERNAL STREET LIGHTS AT GHANZI SENIOR SECONDARY MR NKAIGWA: Supplementary. Ke a leboga Mr SCHOOL Speaker. Tona, kana ga o bolele nnete. Ke ne ke re o re tlhalosetse fela sentle, Batswana ba tle ba itse fela sentle MR N. S. L. M. SALAKAE (GHANZI NORTH): gore Okavango Diamond Company as it represents the asked the Minister of Basic Education:-

Hansard No 187 3 Wednesday 8th March, 2017 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(i) if she is aware that the internal street lights at Governance and Public Administration to update Ghanzi Senior Secondary School have not been this Honourable House on the policy of Government working in a long time and therefore exposes the on community radio stations and their licensing and school to a serious risk of crime; specifically to state:-

(ii) whether they are budgeted for under the 2017/2018 i) the number of applications received for community Financial Year; and radio stations;

(iii) how much is the budget. ii) the communities or geographical areas applicants sought to operate at; and MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (DR DOW): Thank you Mr Speaker. iii) the number of successful, failed or deferred applications respectively. (i) Mr Speaker, I am aware of the condition of the Ghanzi Senior Secondary School street lights. Later Date.

(ii) Ghanzi Senior Secondary School is due for BURIALS IN UNGAZETTED AREAS refurbishment in 2017/18 financial year during MR H. B. BILLY (FRANCISTOWN EAST): which the street lights will be attended. asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural (iii) The budget for refurbishment is P55.6 million. I Development what his Ministry is doing to stop burials thank you. in ungazetted areas. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT MR SPEAKER: Go modumo Honourable Members (MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN): Mr Speaker, Section ka kwa lebogong la me la right. Mma Tshireletso, 44.1 of the Local Government Act, 2012, empowers Honourable Molao, Honourable Shamukuni, Councils to make bye laws for maintenance of health, Honourable Ralotsia, Honourable Mabeo and environment, safety and wellbeing of the inhabitants of Honourable Madigele, go modumo. Ke gakgamala ke an area. bua modumo, le bo le tsweletse le tsere dikgang. Go To control and regulate burials, Councils establish, raya gore ga le ntseye tsia letsatsi la gompieno. Go tlaa designate and identify areas within the jurisdiction as nna le kgosomano mo Palamenteng. cemeteries. They have thus developed Cemetery Bye MR SALAKAE: Supplementary. Tanki Mr Speaker. Laws to ensure that no person buries or cause to be buried a body in a place other than a cemetery. Motlotlegi Tona, kana financial year is a long period, a ga o ka ke wa tlhalosetsa Palamente gore totatota fa A number of Councils have developed Cemetery Bye o re the project has been budgeted for, o raya e ya go Laws to guard against burials in ungazzetted areas. These Councils include; Central District Council, Francistown simolola leng sentlesentle, a fa gare ga April to March City Council, Gaborone City Council, Lobatse Town next year, when exactly, tentative date? Council, Kgatleng District Council, Jwaneng Town Council and Selebi Phikwe Town Council. DR DOW: Thank you very much Honourable Member. Thank you very much Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I am I would like to underscore that not many cases or unable to say exactly when because I am sure you are incidences of burials in ungazzetted areas have been aware that in terms of Government budgeting, you do reported. Nonetheless, my Ministry will continue to not commit until you have the money. So the money encourage Councils to be more vigilant and enforce the st will come as in the project plan. From the 1 April 2017, bye laws to guard against this happening in the future. only then can we legally issue a tender or an Invitation Thank you. To Tender (ITT). But certainly it is within the Economic Stimulus Programme (ESP) projects tsa 2017/2018. MR LELATISITSWE: Supplementary. Ke go leboge Process e tlaa simolola ka 1st April 2017 go ya kwa pele. Tona. Ke botse gore, ga ke itse gore Council e e kafa e bidiwa mang, gore tsone bye laws tsa teng tsa reng? UPDATE ON THE POLICY OF GOVERNMENT ON COMMUNITY RADIO STATIONS AND HONOURABLE MEMBER: South East District. THEIR LICENSING MR LELATISITSWE: South East District, gore kana MR D. L. KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE bone ba fitlhela mo malwapeng, gore di a rengbye laws WEST): asked the Minister for Presidential Affairs, tsa bone?

4 Hansard No 187 Wednesday 8th March, 2017 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

The other one ke ya gore, are you aware that kwa APPOINTMENT OF HIS LORDSHIP THE CHIEF dikgaolong tse di tshwanang le tsa Boteti, go na le batho JUSTICE AS HEAD OF ALL COURTS ba ba tlhokomelwang ke Goromente, mme ba bangwe ba fitlhela fela kwa merakeng? The cars tse khansele e MR H. B. BILLY (FRANCISTOWN EAST): asked ntshang dikesi ka tsone, di ya kwa merakeng go ya go the Minister of Defence, Justice and Security whether it fitlhelwa teng koo. is not time for his Lordship the Chief Justice to be made head of all courts and to sit at the Court of Appeal. MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Speaker, the first question I did not get it very clearly. MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Thank you Mr Speaker. MR LELATISITSWE: Okay, ke ne ke botsa gore a Mr Speaker, in accordance with Section 95 of the malwapa a Tlokweng is it gazetted cemeteries? Constitution, which provides for the jurisdiction and composition of the High Court, the Honourable Chief MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Speaker, let me Justice is the Head of all Courts by virtue of him being the choose not to answer that one today because maybe Head of the Judiciary. Furthermore, in accordance with I would need more information as to justifying why Section 99 (2)(c) of the Constitution, the Honourable burials are taking place the way they are in Tlokweng. Chief Justice is a Justice of the Court of Appeal and therefore sits on the Court of the Appeal Bench from Burials taking place in ungazetted cattle posts or farms, I time to time as he may determine, on the basis of the think that is not regulated. The people still have the right volume of work. I thank you Mr Speaker to bury their beloved ones maybe on private property. IMPLEMENTATION OF THE 1994 REVISED MR MMOLOTSI: Further supplementary. Following NATIONAL EDUCATION POLICY on your last answer Minister, did I hear you well saying that people still can bury their loved ones in their private MR N. S. L. M. SALAKAE (GHANZI NORTH): properties? asked the Minister of Basic Education:-

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Well, if I have to (i) why her Ministry has reneged on implementing answer honestly, then I will have to refer to the bye laws the 1994 Revised National Education Policy with as to what is officially allowed. I can accept that is the respect to the recommended number of children practice that is happening. But one will have to go into per class as well as the recommendation against what is defined within the bye laws. automatic progression;

COMMENCEMENT OF THE ECONOMIC (ii) whether she is aware that classes at Itekeng Junior STIMULUS PROGRAMME (ESP) PROJECTS AT Secondary School in Ghanzi are full to the extent GHANZI SENIOR SECONDARY SCHOOL that two (2) classes use the school hall which is not partitioned, with no blackboards hence making MR N. S. L. M. SALAKAE (GHANZI NORTH): learning and teaching very difficult and complex; asked the Minister of Basic Education why the Economic Stimulus Programme (ESP) projects that were promised (iii) to control this anomaly; and to have started in September 2016 at Ghanzi Senior Secondary School have not commenced yet. (iv) how much is the budget.

MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (DR DOW): MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (DR Thank you Honourable Member. Thank you Mr Speaker. DOW): Mr Speaker, my Ministry has not reneged on I believe this question has really been answered in part. implementing the 1994 Revised National Policy on First of all to say that, I am not aware of any Economic Education (RNPE) with respect to the recommended Stimulus Programme (ESP) project at Ghanzi Senior number of children per class. The reality on the ground Secondary School scheduled to start in September is that sometimes because of pressure of population, 2016. What I know is that, that particular project was in classes do exceed the recommended forty (40) pupils Phase 2 of ESP projects. Indeed in February 2017, my per class, but in many cases the class sizes are much less Ministry initiated the process of scoping the work for than 40, and in small communities they are even smaller Ghanzi Senior Secondary School to ensure that during than twenty (20). The point I am making Mr Speaker this coming financial year, 2017/2018, the sum of P55.6 is that there is no policy change, but the on the ground million is set aside for refurbishment of Ghanzi. Thank sometimes reality demands that we allow more children you very much sir. in a classroom than 40.

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On the issue of the repeats, with reference to HONOURABLE MEMBERS:…(Murmurs)… Recommendation 234 on automatic promotions, my Ministry adheres to the recommended repetition of up DR DOW: I will bring you a list, gakere wa re ke go to 12.5 per cent in each class. The reality again on the bolelele class nngwe, ke gore ke ne ke sa itse gore ground is that sometimes parents are not willing to allow gongwe o tlile go tla o nthaya o re ga ke na boammaaruri, their children to repeat because in terms of our policy, jaanong ke tlaa go tlela list kamoso ya classes tsa ba ba there must be a communication on agreement between kwa tlase ga 40 jaaka ke bua le wena. O a utlwa? Ee, parents and teachers on that, and sometimes because mme o se ka wa tlhola o re I am dishonest, that is not a of pressure again of the demands on the ground, this very nice word. particular policy is not always adhered to. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary.

(ii) Mr Speaker, I am aware of the overcrowding MR SPEAKER: Last one Mr Ntlhaile. at Itekeng Junior Secondary School which is operating with twenty six (26) classes and eighteen MR NTLHAILE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr (18) classrooms. Currently one (1) class uses the Speaker, I think the Minister ga a tswe ka kgang sentle hall for lessons. because the way the question is framed, e ama Tona mo e leng gore pele ga a a fa karabo, o ne a tshwanetse gore (iii) As the class follows the timetable, the students a ikgotsofatse gore the percentage ya classes tse e leng of the class rotate to other rooms as they attend gore di fetile the recommended ratio di kae, tse e leng optional subjects. There is a movable chalkboard gore they are working within the ratio e e recommended used by the class in the hall. di kae? It is a very basic and simple ratio e e leng gore (iv) Under the Economic Stimulus Programme (ESP) o ne o tshwanetse gore selo sa ntlha o ikgotsofatse. So, there is an additional science laboratory to be answer the question and stop being cagey. constructed in the school this year at an estimated MR SPEAKER: Ga re ga go tlhokane le go lwa, botsa cost of P480,000; that should also reduce the fela o wetse dibete o tlaa arabiwa. pressure on the classroom. Thank you very much. DR DOW: Gape ga ke itse gore ratio ke eng… MR SALAKAE: Supplementary. Honourable Minister, I thank you very much for that response, but I think with HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… respect to (i) you and me know that you are being a bit dishonest on that one, with respect to the fact that you MR SPEAKER: Order! Go modumo. believe gore the reason why the classrooms di tlala ke DR DOW: No, that was not the question; the question fale le fale. Ke ne ke re ke botse fela gone gore a mme go na le sekolo sengwe fela mo Botswana se sone o ka was about recommended number of children per class, papamalang fela wa re se sone, fa motho a ka ya kwa there is a difference between teacher/student ratio and go sone o ya go bona gore Revised National Policy on the number per class. O a ntlhaloganya? As a matter Education is under implementation with respect to the of fact, in some schools especially those in the major teacher ratio? Thank you very much. villages including Ghanzi Township, the class sizes are within the recommended number. So, kamoso ke tlaa go DR DOW: Thank you. Mr Speaker, I take exception to tlela dipalo tsone tseo. the suggestion that I am being dishonest, and I think that is an insult, but I am sure kana tota fela ga ntsi o itse PROVISION OF TRANSPORT TO EMPLOYEES motho ka mafoko a a dirisang e seng gore go go ruta BY CHAIN STORES sengwe ka se motho a buang ka sone. MR H. B. BILLY (FRANCISTOWN EAST): asked In terms of the class list, I will bring your class list the Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and tomorrow… Skills Development if his Ministry does not consider it HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… prudent to come up with a law that will compel chain stores to provide transport for their employees:- DR DOW: Wa reng wena? Ga ke bue le wena, ke bua le motho yo o ntseng a ntheeditse yo. i) who start work in the early hours of the morning; and HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… DR DOW: In terms of the class list… ii) those who knock off late at night as they fall prey to criminals who way lay them to rob them of their MR SPEAKER: Emisang go lwa. valuables and sometimes murder them.

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MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR MR SPEAKER: Yes, last one. PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR MABEO): Mr Speaker, my Ministry does not MR LELATISITSWE: Supplementary. Thank you so have immediate plans to come up with a law that will much, ke ne ke re gongwe Tona maybe you can enlighten compel chain stores… us gore re itse gore the laws that you are referring to, when was their last review? Looking at e e fa pele ga HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… rona gompieno, gongwe le yone o tlhalose gore a mme looking at the fact that the companies tse di theogelang MR SPEAKER: Ema jalo pele Honourable Mabeo. bosigo di di ntsi go le kana ka eng, is it not time for Honourable Members a ke tlaa tshwanelwa ke go the Ministry maybe to come up either with a policy or kgalemelela Batlotlegi Mapalamente modumo more something? than once? Ga ke dumele fa go le go botlhokwa go dira jalo. A ko le reetseng, Honourable Mabeo tswelela. MR SPEAKER: O botsa dipotso tse di sha, ga ke itse gore a o na le dikarabo. MR MABEO: Mr Speaker, my Ministry does not have immediate plans to come up with a law that will compel MR MABEO: Ke a leboga Mr Speaker, ke a leboga chain stores to provide transport for their employees Mopalamente. Gongwe ke arabe fela ka gore ga ke ka who start work in the early hours of the morning and ke ka tlhomamisa gone jaana gore re baakantse molao o those who knock off late at night. o leng. Ke tsaya gore ke ka go senkela that information, ke tlaa tla ka yone kamoso. Mr Speaker, our employment laws do not compel employers to provide transport for their employees who Sa bobedi ke gone gore ke ne ke tlhalosa gore re a itse start work in the early hours of the morning and those ka bothata jo bo ntseng jalo. Ke sone se o neng o utlwa who knock off late at night; however employers have a ke araba potso ya Mopalamente wa Mogoditshane ke re moral duty to take keen interest in the welfare of their re tlaa nna re ntse re buisana le ba ba amegang, mme fela employees. In this regard, they should at their own will, ga re itse palo sentle ya gore dikompone tse di dirang consider providing transport to their employees who go jalo di kae. Kana re nna re beile thata mo bathong fa to work during early hours or those who knock off late ba ntse ba tla go ikuela kwa go rona. Ke a leboga Mr at night. Speaker.

Mr Speaker, provision of transport is a condition of HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary. service and therefore a negotiable item. Employees may also negotiate with their employers to provide transport MR SPEAKER: Ke ne ke rile ke ya bofelo. to and from work during specified hours of the day. Once the employees and employers agree on this issue, TABLING OF PAPERS it will be stipulated in the collective labour agreement or contract of work, and will be binding on the employer. The following papers were tabled:

In conclusion, I encourage all employers to be SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES OF considerate and safeguard the welfare of their employees EXPENDITURE FROM THE CONSOLIDATED by ensuring that their safety is not compromised. I thank FUND – FINANCIAL PAPER NO. 4 OF 2015/2016 you Mr Speaker. (Minister of Finance and Economic Development) MR KGOROBA: Supplementary. Thank you Mr SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES OF Speaker. Honourable Mabeo, it is a moral obligation on EXPENDITURE FROM THE CONSOLIDATED the side of the employer, mme they are not doing that. FUND – FINANCIAL PAPER NO. 3 OF 2016/2017 Kwa kgaolong ya me ke na le bana ba ba bolailweng ba ne ba tšhaisa bosigo ba sena sepalamo. A ga o bone mme (Minister of Finance and Economic Development) jaanong go tlhokafala gore it should be made law gore the companies tse babereki ba bone ba tšhaisang bosigo HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. e nne legal obligation gore ba bone gore they transport MR SPEAKER: Ema fela jalo rraetsho, ga ke ise ke babereki jang? fetse se ke se dirang fa. Honourable Ntlhaile, what is MR MABEO: Mr Speaker, tlaya fela ke re ke a utlwa se your point of procedure? Mopalamente a se buang, I will continue engaging bone MR NTLHAILE: On a point of procedure. Mr Speaker, ba ba amegang. I thank you Mr Speaker. ke ne ke re jaanong supplementary e tla jang re santse re HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. buisanya (debate) Budget? E tsena fa kae?

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MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, lebelela HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… dingwaga tseo, ke tse di kwa morago. E tlaa re fa o bala supplementaries tseo ke gone o tlaa tlhaloganyang. Go MS TSHIRELETSO: I want to repeat this one Mr na le notes mo teng ba tlhalosa gore ba kopela eng madi. Speaker. The theme for this year’s commemoration is, O tlaa tlhaloganya Honourable Member, do not worry. “Be Bold for Change”. Though the world economic forum has predicted that the gender gap will only HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. close around the year 2186, the commemoration of MR SPEAKER: Are we going to spend more time International Women’s Day can play an important role on procedures? Gape ke eme ka dinao? It can never in bringing change into the lives of women and moving be allowed ke eme ka dinao gore o re procedure. It is closer to the gender equality we so earnestly seek. unheard of. The Government of Botswana has put tremendous MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (MS effort into uplifting women and girls especially MAKGATO): Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, a those in vulnerable situations and those affected go procedural gore e re re le mo ngwageng wa boraro re by discriminatory socio-cultural practices and the le Mapalamente, go bo go santse go na le Mopalamente patriarchal system. Though strong cultural dimensions yo o tlatlaisiwang go itse gore supplementary ya ngwaga still hinder the progress of women in areas such as o o fetileng e tsena leng le gore Budget ya ngwaga o re political representation, progress has been made in the yang kwa pele e amana jang. A gone go procedural? areas of education, health, human rights, poverty and economic empowerment. MR SPEAKER: Tota fa o bona e ne e ka re ke batla go gana jaana, ke ne ke belaetse gore o a rumolana. Botswana has over time made progress in increasing the Jaanong a re tsweleleng. Thuto ga e golelwe. Re ithuta number of women in leadership positions in the public fela letsatsi le letsatsi, le o bona re thuntse meriri jaana. and private sectors and has also made significant strides in areas such as early child education and nursing care STATEMENT BY THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE where core functions are closely linked with the roles of PARLIAMENTARY CAUCUS ON WOMEN women and girls.

CHAIRPERSON OF THE PARLIAMENTARY Economic factors, especially poverty, play a key role in CAUCUS ON WOMEN (MS TSHIRELETSO): gender relations in Botswana. The Department of Gender Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, it is that time of the Affairs is spearheading on going gender mainstreaming year when the world takes a moment to celebrate women efforts to specifically target the promotion of equal around the world by commemorating International opportunities in all sectors across the gender divide. Women’s Day. The 8th of March is a significant day for Thus gender analysis will be used as a tool to identify all women globally. It is a day that we as women take barriers experienced by all genders and reduce gaps time to appreciate ourselves and each other, focus on which prevent balance. the extraordinary and encouraging stories of women and recognise the strides we have made in working towards This year the Department held the commemoration gender equality. On this day, we celebrate women of this day, yesterday 7th March, 2017 at Ditshegwane who have and will continue to motivate the world for village. generations to come. Mr Speaker, on this day the Parliamentary Caucus on The commemoration of this day serves to create Women calls on all of us to take bold action to do all in awareness on the origins of the International Women’s our power to bring about change for women. If we work together we can make decisions and take actions that Day and celebrate the achievements, contributions and unleash the limitless potential held by women around efforts made by women in their societies and highlights the world. the struggles they experience in the entire development process. It seeks to open discussions on women’s The Parliamentary Caucus on Women would also like past challenges and successes, with a view to finding to invite all Members of Parliament to join us and other solutions to remove current constraints they experience. women in commemorating this day tomorrow at 9 a.m The day further aims to educate and sensitize the public on the Parliament grounds. I thank you Mr Speaker. on matters relating to the status of women and discuss the extent to which gender balance has been achieved HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)... over the years. MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. The theme for this year’s commemoration, “Be Bold for Order! Honourable Members, in accordance with our Change” calls on the masses to create a greater, more Standing Order 41.3, I will allow short questions and gender inclusive world. interventions.

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MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND babereki ba isiwe kwa tirong. Bontsi jwa babereki ba COOPERATION (DR VENSON-MOITOI): Ke a ba bolailweng, ba ba beditsweng and robbed ba tšhaisa leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke kana ba ya tirong phakela per the statistics, ke bomme. re rraetsho mma re leboge Modulasetilo wa rona Mma Ke dilo tse e leng gore we need laws to protect those Tshireletso. Re mo lebogele gore tota ga a ise a ko a re people, not policies tse gotweng, re tlaa tsamaya re ntse kgobe marapo ka epe nako, ka gore ngwaga le ngwaga o re tataisa. So ke re kana go mo go lona gore le ka tswa dira tiro e e kanakana e. Ke re mo nakong ya gompieno, ka tsone dilo tse di ntseng jalo. ke kope borre ba ba mo Ntlong e gore ba gakologelwe gore bonosing jwa bone, ga go na epe tiro e lefatshe le le MR SPEAKER: Order! Le a bo le sa batle go ntheetsa. ka e dirang bomme ba seyo, ka gore le rona re a itse gore Ke rile short questions or very short interventions. Fa le tiro e kgonwa ke go pataganelwa. Le bone balemi ga ba debate ke tlaa emisa gone fa, re bo re tswelela. kgone go lema ba se na yo o ba apeetseng bogobe kwa MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND gae. Ka bokhutshwane fela tiro e ntse jalo. Jaanong, selo SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa se sengwefela fela se se santseng se re paletse, ke gore Dipuisanyo tsa … bomme dipalo tsa bone di bo di oketsegile mo Ntlong e. Re tlaa kopa thotloetso mo go lona bagaetsho. Re MR KGOROBA: Point of order. Honourable Speaker, tlaa kopa kemonokeng mo go lona bagaetsho, gore mo tsamaiso ya Ntlo e ya gago ke gore go se ka ga nna le ditlhophong tse di tlang re bo re fitlhela bomme dipalo motho yo o emelelang o ise o nne fa fatshe. Jaanong fa tsa bone golo fa di oketsegile ka kemonokeng ya lona. e re o ise o nne fa fatshe Honourable Kgathi a bo a setse a eme ka dinao, o bo o boa o mo supa gore e nne ene MR SPEAKER: Short questions and very short yo o buang, o a bona gore jaanong o tsuolola tsamaiso interventions. ya Ntlo e? MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (MS MR SPEAKER: Honourable Kgoroba, o mmone MAKGATO): Thank you very much Honourable sentle, o mo kgalemele. Speaker. First of all let me congratulate the Chairperson wa rona mo Palamenteng for a wonderful presentation MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, tota what is out of order to the House. I just want to align myself with the theme ke lebotlele le le fale, ke kopa gore le le ntshe, ga ke that says, “Be Bold for Change.” Kana fa re re we must kgone go… (Laughter!)… Mr Speaker, ke eme fa to be bold for change… pledge support to the women of this country and women MR SPEAKER: Honourable Makgato, please do not at large, ke re re le borre we do recognise the role that be tempted to debate. women play. It is very significantmo matshelong a rona re le borre, re ka se ke re kgone go dira tse di ntsi kwa MS MAKGATO: I will not debate. Ke tlaa gatelela ntle ga lona, ke re we will support you. Re leboge Puso ya mafoko mangwe a a a buileng, ke yone comment ya me. Domkrag gore e dirile mananeo a le mantsi a a supileng Ke batla go gatelela mafoko a “Be Bold for Change” go nonotsha bomme, fa re lebelela statistics in terms of and we cannot be bold for change without the help of women in leadership positions, selo se ke maiteko. Ke these Honourable Members that are here, neither can we re re tswelele re se eme nokeng, re re bomme re na le be bold gape re tshaba, because if you look at what is lona, re a le leboga mo go re tshegetseng le rona re le happening now, re saletse kwa morago ka dipalo. It is borre. my sincere belief that it is the boldness that is going MR SPEAKER: I am taking the last two. to take us to the next level. So, I congratulate my Chairperson and I am just saying rona re le bomme, le MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (DR DOW): borre ba ba fano re tlaabo re ntse re na le ene re mo Thank you very much Mr Speaker. Le nna I stand to thusa to achieve this milestone. Thank you Chairperson. support my Chairperson, tota gape go mo akgola gore fa gotwe somebody has actually been bold for change MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: Thank you Mr Speaker. go tewa ene. In the past two years she has been raising Mma fela ke re ke lebogele setlhogo se sa “Be Bold for issues that sometimes are very uncomfortable to raise. Change.” Ke re mme kana bomme ke lona ba le leng She has been raising issues tota fela to demonstrate gore ba ntsi ka dipalo. Ke ne ke kopa gore jaaka maloba re she is already bold and therefore under her leadership bua mo Palamenteng re re fa o lebelela madi a gotweng and with your support of course we expect that dilo di go thusiwa bomme ka one a manyennyane fela thata. tlaa fetoga. Se se tonatona… Let us start le le Goromente tota le bone gore le ema ka dinao bomme ba mo mathateng. Re ne re santse re HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Mangole, botsa Minister potso fa gore a o tla ka molao wa gore ke yo.

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DR DOW: Naare wena wa reng? Mokhurutshe didimala. MR BOKO: That is what I want to advise and caution. Thank you very much. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Mangole, ke yo. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)…

DR DOW: Honourable Mangole, ga ke mo tshabe MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! gotlhelele. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR SPEAKER: Honourable Dow. MR SPEAKER: Let us go to the next item. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… APPROPRIATION (2017/2018) BILL, 2017 (NO. 2 DR DOW: He is derailing me. O tshabela Honourable OF 2017) Mangole mo go nna Mr Chairperson… ASSEMBLY IN COMMITTEE HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… (CHAIRPERSON in the Chair) DR DOW: Boammaaruri ke gore tota re eletsa gore ngwaga o o tlang, ka gore tota lefatshe le re le ORGANIZATION 1100-MINISTRY OF tlhakanetse; Mr Chairperson let me go back to English, HEALTH AND WELLNESS I must keep with one language. First of all, what does (Resumed Debate) change mean? Change means that I can walk at night without fear of being raped by a man, gakere! That MR CHAIRPERSON (MR MOLATLHEGI): Order! is what I am asking for. We are also asking that the Order! Honourable Members. We are back at the culture ya Ntlo e, ya polotiki, ya sengwe le sengwe Committee of Supply, Ministry of Health and Wellness, accommodates the special needs tsa basadi. That is Organisation 1100. Let me remind you Honourable what we are talking about. At the end of the day fela Members that I shall call upon the Minister to reply to the debate at 15:10 hours. tota ka re melao e e ka dirang gore dilo tse di fetoge e simologa gone fa. Tota mo teng ke bua gape ka ene HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… Honourable Mmolotsi, yo e leng gore gompieno, when I am trying to be bold for change he is now interfering MR CHAIRPERSON: Oh! Let me correct my time with my contribution. Ke ne ke re o nkgalemelele monna here. It should be 15:25 hours. Members, my apologies for that short… yo tota, ka gore re tlhokana le gore batho ba didimale fa basadi ba bua go simolola gompieno. Thank you Mr HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Speaker. MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Boko, ke tlaa wela MR BOKO: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. Mma mo go wena. T, let me congratulate you personally for the efforts that you have made throughout your life, as a female HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… politician and as a special breed of politician who has MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, the had some independence of thought and action. Having Minister will reply at 15:15 hours, that is eight (8) done that, let me also sound a word of caution to our minutes from now and the question will be put at 15:45 women folks; women have very special attributes, hours. When we adjourned yesterday, Honourable some of them natural because of their biology and other Ngaka was on the floor and he was left with five (5) attributes, but some of them from the socialization. One minutes. He is not here. The floor is open. Eight (8) of the things that they fail to appreciate is this and I want minutes. to caution… ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LAND MR SPEAKER: Twenty (20) seconds left. MANAGEMENT, WATER AND SANITATION MR BOKO: Please, do not try become men. Do not try SERVICES (MR MOIPISI): Tanki Modulasetilo. E to outcompete men at being men. Bring those attributes bile ke leboga gore ke bue… of care and compassion to the table. Do not subject them MR NTLHAILE: On a point of order. Mr Chairperson, to attributes of aggression and intolerance that we see in o kare go na le sengwe se se sa tsamaeng sentle. so many women trying to outshine men at being men. Tumalano e ne e le gore go tsewa two (2) ka kwa, two (2) MR SPEAKER: Fetsa rraetsho! ka kwano. Maabane fa Palamente e phatlalala, Speaker

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o ne a supile batho ba le bararo on the other side, mme HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… a bo a ntsholofetsa gore nnyaa e tlaa re gompieno Honourable Ngaka fa a fetsa, go bo go tsena nna. MR MOIPISI: …(Laughter!)… Tanki Modulasetilo. Tona, ke bo ke go lebogela gape gore mo pegong ya HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… gago o buile gore o tlaa agela kgaolo ya Kgalagadi North matlo a baoki a boroko a le 23. Ba rile ke go akgole ka MR CHAIRPERSON: You are out of order Honourable selo seo, le fa tota gongwe thulaganyo ya teng e saletse Ntlhaile. Tswelela Honourable Moipisi. kwa morago. MR MOIPISI: Honourable o njela nako. Ke tlaa tsenya Mma ke tsene mo Emergency Medical Services. E ne ya Jwaneng-Mabutsane mo kgannyeng ya me, so o se ka re ka State of the Nation Address (SONA) sa 2015, ke wa tshwenyega. E bile ke leboga gore ke bue Motlotlegi ne ka kopa gore tsela ya Trans Kalahari, ga go na le fa Mopalamente wa Gaborone Bonnington North a le teng e le lefelo la emergency Tona. Ke bona mo pegong ya gore a tle a utlwe jaaka go buelelwa kgaolo ka gore ene gago o kwadile gore o di okeditse. Gongwe nako e ne e ga a ka ke a ba a buelela kgaolo ya gagwe. le yone e ya gore go ka bo go ne ga sekwasekwa gore a ga go ka ke ga dirwa lefelo la thuso ya potlako mo Trans Mma ke go akgole Tona, o re tliseditse… Kalahari, re lebile botlhokwa jwa tsela e; e dirisiwa ke bajanala le bagwebi. Ke bona e saletse kwa morago and MR NTLHAILE: On a point of order. Ah! Mr we need such a facility. Chairperson, ke ne ke re Ntlo e o kare e tswa mo taolong. Hukuntsi Primary Hospital, maloba ke ne ke se etetse Minister fale, I think he is imputing improper motive on ka January, 2017. Fa ke tsena ke fitlhetse the theatre the President of the Umbrella for Democratic Change equipment, x-ray equipment and lab equipment di le (UDC) and Leader of the Opposition. Ga ke itse gore o down. Ke solofela gore your Permanent Secretary, ka sha ntshu a ogola eng kwa Gaborone Bonnington North. gore o ne a etetse Hukuntsi last month, dikgang tse o a Ah! di itse mme le tlaa di tsibogela. MR CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa, mme o tla ka bogale Bodiredi; we only have five (5) doctors in Hukuntsi fela Honourable Member, mong wa kgang o setse a e Primary Hospital out of the establishment ya 13. feditse, tswa fela mo dikgannyeng tsa bone. Bana ba Modimo ba mo mathateng. E bile bone ba ba MR MOIPISI: Thank you Modulasetilo. Kana tlhano ba, botlhe ke ba ba šha, ga go na an experienced honourable ga a itse gore nna le Honourable Boko re doctor. Midwives, we only have ten (10) out of 24, ke tswa kae. Re tswa kgakala, go na le dikgang tse re di re o e lebelele. Ga re na mooki wa matlho. Batho ba ba buang re le babedi. lwalang matlho ke gore jaanong ba tswe kwa Kgalagadi ba tle mo Molepolole. Ke sekgala fela se se kgakala. Tona, mma ke go leboge gore o re tliseditse mooki yo Letlhoko la dikoloi; kgaolo ya me e bophara, ditsela di o sedilang kwa sepateleng sa Hukuntsi ka gore kgaolo maswe. Fa o isa koloi kwa e le ambulance ga e tshwane ele e ne e lela thata, ba sena mooki yo o sedilang, e re le fa o isa mo dikgaolong tse dingwe ka gore lifespan ba na le ditlhabi, go sena ope yo o ba sedilang. Jaanong ya teng e nnyennyane fela. Ke re go na le letlhoko leo ba kgaolo ba re… Tona, o e ele tlhoko. MR MARKUS: On a point of order. Modulasetilo, Ditheko tsa dithoto (procurement of services); kwa ke ne ke re gongwe ke latlhegile. Kana golo fa e rile sepatela ba nthaya ba re kana dithoto tse di fetang P50 000 re tsweletse, timetable ya rona e ne e sena agenda ya ga ba di authorise kwa sepateleng sa Hukuntsi. Go raya bomme. Nako ya rona e re neng re tshwanetse gore gore ba kope thuso kwa Tsabong, mme golo mo go tsala re bue ka yone e tserwe ke bomme. A mme ga o bone tiego fela thata. Fa go ne go na le motho kwa Hukuntsi gore o re okeletsenyana gore re kgone go bua motho wa Sub-District yo e leng gore o authorise thulaganyo ya Modimo, ka gore nako ya rona e tserwe ke bomme gona ditheko tse, gongwe go ne go ka nna botoka. Tona, re le gore o e bolaye fela jaana o bo o e cut mme rona re sale re emetse upgrade ya dikokelwana tsa Hukuntsi le itse gore re nako ya gore gongwe re ka supiwa ra bua? Lehututu ka 2015. Ba santse ba di emetse, ba ne ba re MR CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa, ke le okeleditse ke botse gore di tsamaya fa kae. E ne ya re ka State of Honourable Members. the Nation Address 2015, again, I talked about a district hospital. Ke re the whole of western region, Kgalagadi HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… le Ghanzi, probably it is time re ka upgrade one of the primary hospitals go e dira district hospital gore batho MR CHAIRPERSON: Ke e buseditse mo mannong ba kgaolo ele le bone ba bone dithuso. E se ka ya re nako fa e neng e tshwanetse gore e bo e le teng. Tswelela le nako ba bo ba tla mo bo Gaborone jalojalo. Ke tlaa Honourable Moipisi. ema go le kalo Modulasetilo.

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ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL were raised by Honourable Tsogwane. I heard you about AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC the issues of concern tsa kwa Boteti. I can promise you ADMINISTRATION (MR KWEREPE): Ke a leboga now that I will visit your constituency, then we would go bo o mphile sebaka rraetsho. Mma ke leboge Tona be able to sit down and work hand in hand and see what wa Botsogo mo maitekong a a a dirang kwa kgaolong ya happens. I still experience concerns at Ministry level ya me. Ke lebogele gore o bone go tlhokafala gore sepatela transfers. When I do transfers from towns or cities to se se kileng sa jewa ke molelo sa Gumare, gompieno o rural areas, generally I have a problem because those se tsentse mo lenaneong. Selo se ke malebo mmaetsho, ones who are in towns and cities are a little bit reluctant ke ka se ke ke tlhoke go go bolelela gore ke a go leboga. to go to rural areas. Sometimes it is not very easy for us E re le fa ntswa sepatela se diegile, mme ke kopa ka to be able to replace immediately, but it is a concern that boingotlo le boikokobetso gore ba ba tlaa se fiwang we are addressing and we are trying to find innovative gore ba ye go se aga, e nne konteraka e e nonofileng. ways of ensuring that everyone who works for the E se ka ya nna konteraka e re tlaa boang gape, ba nna, Ministry of Health and Wellness has a chance to go and kamoso nnyaa, go dirwa mo, kamoso go dirwa mo. Se work at a rural area. ke ne ke re ke se go lebogele Tona gore at least you have answered selelo sa rona kwa, le go ya o kile wa ya. I have noted the issue of referrals that was raised by a Ga se mang le mang yo o ka ralalang sekgwa go tswa couple of you, to say that we refer to district hospitals lebaka le le kana… that are very far from your constituencies and then we are unable to provide transport to go back. In terms MR CHAIRPERSON: Order! Honourable Kwerepe. of the procedure, if you have been referred by us and Ga re na quorum. we transport you with an ambulance to a facility, normally we would take you back. Sometimes that MR KWEREPE: Ke kopa go bua fela mong wa me. does not happen. Even though that is our policy, hey! MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Kwerepe, ba bitse ke a imelwa. I think I must be honest with you. Ke a fa ntle foo. Re tlhaela ka ba le four (4). Nnang fa fatshe imelwa because sometimes I think we must help the re tsweleleng, le 21. Order! Nako e e neng e saletse Government. Government can only do that much. When Honourable Kwerepe e jelwe ke quorum. Honourable I talk about responsibility, I would strongly encourage Minister, please reply to the debate, le ya gago e you gore sometimes when we have referred a patient, fokotsegile. a na le masika, a na le bana, fa gongwe e bile a na le bokgoni jwa gore o ka ikisa, a se ka a emela gore MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (MS ambulance e tlaa tla. Gongwe ambulance e ne e seyo e MAKGATO): Thank you Mr Chairperson. I just want santse e le kwa Central Transport Organisation (CTO), a to confirm, does that mean mine has also been tampered tseye boikarabelo a thusane le bana ba gagwe le botsadi with? jwa gagwe gore a dire jalo, ka gore at the end of the day, I want them to be able to engage with me when they are MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes madam. healthy and alive, than to engage with me when they are not. MS MAKGATO: Okay. Well, let me start by thanking all the Honourable Members, those of you that spoke MR NKAIGWA: On a point of clarification. Ke a and responded. Thank you for your generous comments. leboga Mr Chairperson, ke a leboga Tona. O ntse o le I am sure as the Ministry of Health and Wellness, we mo go yone ya dipatela, ke ne ke batla go tlhaloganya will take on board a number of suggestions you have gore, gore go tle go agiwe sepatela mo lefelong, le a made as we continue to deal with matters pertaining bo le lebeletse eng? Ke tsaya sekai fela ka sepatela se to health and wellness. Also Mr Chairperson, I give an gotweng se a agiwa kwa Moshupa, mme re ntse re na assurance to my Honourable colleagues that I practise le sepatela mo Thamaga. A go ne go sa tlhokafale gore an open door policy. The fact that they might not have go godisiwe sepatela sa Thamaga ka gore Moshupa le had sufficient time to respond to what I was saying here, Thamaga di bapile, Gaborone le ene o bapile le tsone? does not necessarily deny them the chance of coming to my office to discuss issues that concern them in their MS MAKGATO: Ga ke tle go araba ka gore o itseetse constituencies. They must engage me to see how best dikgang tsa gago fela. I respond to dipotso tse ke di we can both work towards ensuring a healthy nation. At boditsweng in the debate. E bile ke na le tumelo le the end of the day, what I do is also equally dependent pelaelo e e tletseng ya gore o a itse gore ke leba eng fa on them. ke isa sepatela gope. Fa ke dira sepatela, to educate you, ke leba the volumes of patients, the wellness portfolio, I would respond at a very general level because of the mosuke o re nang le one, the skills that are needed in constraints of time. I would start with the issues that that area, ke a leba everywhere. Fa ke sena go kopanya,

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ke bo ke kgona go bona gore nnyaa, mme ke ka baya They leave because of my non-comparative conditions sepatela fa. Gape se sengwe se ke se lebang, ke gore of service. We have engaged with the Directorate of Goromente o ne a kile a reng bogologolo. Goromente o Public Service Management (DPSM) and in my speech ne a kile a re ke aga sepatela, a go raya a re ke ya go go I have said it is going to require me to be innovative, to agela sepatela kwa bolebelebe ka National Development start thinking of different ways of addressing it, rather Plan (NDP) 5, kana ka NDP 6. When I now deal with than talk about it there and here. my NDPs, I have to make reference to those that were deferred before my time. For your information ka gore MR CHAIRPERSON: Order! Honourable Makgato, o gaketse ka Moshupa for motives known to yourself, o ntse o eme jalo, go na le conferences tse dingwe di Moshupa ga e a bolo go tla even before I was born, e le tsweletse. Go na le tripartite fa go Honourable Ralotsia mo NDPs jaaka dipatela tse dingwe. Ga ke batle gore ke and his colleagues and there is another tripartite fa go itiele nako ka wena. Honourable Kgathi and colleagues. Ke kopa gore a ko le iketleng batho ba Modimo. I go to Honourable Molefhi, you talked about an area… MS MAKGATO: Kgang ya direpa; to say that we must include it in the Public Service Act to allow those that HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. want to donate their bodies, I wish I could have in there, the power to donate some bodies, I will not say who. But MS MAKGATO: Nnyaa, I am no longer clarifying, I we have already provided for that in the Public Service. do not have time. The only thing that we have not done is coming up with Honourable Molefhi, you talked about an area of the necessary regulations to be able to implement or passion for me ya gore, gore o ngaka le gore o mooki, enforce. It is something that we will do very quickly. it does not necessarily mean gore o manager or you are Honourable Gaolathe, you were very generous in your an administrator. It is an issue that we are confronting comments and when you speak because I take it very, head on. It is important that when we now take you very seriously and I know gore you never lie, what you out of your comfort zone and give you another job that say is what you mean. I am very, very thankful. I shared requires a different set of skill mix, we need to be able with my team, especially that I was stressing them about to give you the necessary skill mix to capacitate you, this document. I sent it back a few times and I said to for you to be able to deliver that. It is still an area of them, “we survived because we are able to look at what challenge. It is an area that we are aware of, it is an area we are saying and we verify it. If it is bad, we must that we are addressing through capacity programmes have it here. If it is good, we must have it here. We must that we have within the Ministry. also track the improvements that we have had and be You also raised another area that I think we have to able to say, here we have achieved and here we have not tackle head on with the boldness that it deserves, an area achieved, so, this is what we are going to do about it”. I of social determinants of health. I appreciate the fact that am still waiting for you to come to my office for coffee you are aware that health will be affected by the quality because some of the issues that we have talked about, of availability of water. I will take it further than that we can have them re iketlile, re bua re sena pressure ya and say, health will also be affected by poverty and by nako, o ntlhatlhelela le nna ke go tlhatlhelela because I the cleanliness of air. It then means that we as a Ministry think you are amenable to that. We would be very happy of Health alone, cannot deal with this matter. We need to host you so that we can take your comments on board to have a multi-sectoral approach with other relevant and I say this with the sincerity that it deserves. ministries. I think it is something that we should put on Some of the areas that you were talking about are our agenda to say how best we engage others to ensure progressive and are areas that we have to think in the that we deal with all elements of Health and Wellness. long term, especially decentralisation. I have to give You talked in general about conditions of service and my hospitals the total autonomy. I think we have to shortage of staff, it goes across to everyone who also be prepared for it. Some of it might require legislative raised those. I have come here, I am not going to lie to changes for me to be able to achieve that, so, I will take you, I do have an acute shortage of staff. I am doing the it on board and see how best we can do that. best that I can through training, through incentives that I have put in place that were particularly for midwives University Hospital; an area that I know you are very because I have a shortage of midwives. I have sent passionate about, I agree with you and I concede gore others to school as we speak. I have tried to absorb we have taken long on it. I can certainly tell you that everybody that came out of the university, but I still we are not sitting, it is just that we have had a few have a challenge because as I replace them, others leave. challenges. I had hoped that by now in this first quarter,

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we will be opening the doors of the University Hospital, A number of you are not happy with my emergency unfortunately we have not been able to do that. I am services and I think you are right in saying that. I have still hopeful that in the second quarter which starts in always maintained that it can only work if I have the April, we should be able to do certain things. There is a right number of vehicles. When I have a shortage of lot that is happening within the hospital. I am sure you ambulances, it is the shortage of ambulances that is have seen the tenders that were out. We connected the making you not to like the emergency services that we Information Technology (IT). There is a lot of readiness. are providing. I would push, I think this year alone, In fact, I have a team that is working permanently on we managed to get about 180 vehicles, 120 being that, that I have drawn in from my other facilities and ambulances. We have tried to the best of our ability to they are working on making sure that we open the give to the various constituencies. As this next financial hospital fulltime. year starts, we should be able to get a few more, but we will go and revisit, where we verify on the ground to What I do not have is probably the level of funding, but say, “does it work, does it not work.” I am sure you know the intricacies of funding. If I have not started, I cannot get the quantum that I am looking A number of you and Honourable Majaga for instance, for. The little bit that I have got for the hospital, I will be talked about the geographical impossibilities of able to do something with it. Emergency Medical Services (EMS) in his constituency. You talked about universal coverage, that we have to I would visit you le wena to go and see, so that I can be explore to see what other models are. One of my greatest aware and make sure that whatever I come up with here concern and it will continue to be, is our ability to sustain is relevant. the level of service or healthcare that we are giving to Rre Molao, you talked about a number of upgrades the nation. I have deliberately, consistently, year in, year that you expect in your constituency. You talked about out said that we need to look at sustainability. We need to Chadibe, I have noted that. You talked about Matsitama, look at sustainability because if we do not, somewhere I have noted that and it is in line with what I have just down the line, we will not be able to sustain that which said. our people are accustomed to and they will not be able to understand if we have not started this narrative right Honourable Olopeng o lebogetse gore re bo re tsentse now. It is very sad that even the level of service that we sepatela sa gago mo National Development Plan (NDP) provide, I think the nation at large is not even aware of 11. Jaanong I want to thank you most sincerely for the how much it costs. National Fitness Programme ya gago. The reason I I certainly would like to engage jaaka ke ne ke raya Rre want to thank you is I can easily look at it as an uptake Molefhi ke re, re gakolole batho. If you are going to of the call ya Ministry of Health for healthy lifestyles. come mo Marina, ke bo ke go fa treatment worth P300 Your Ministry and my Ministry are working hand in 000.00, cancer for instance, surely if I ask you to pay hand. You are saying you are going to move the nation P40.00 go boela kwa gae, nna ke sena go senyegelwa ke towards this achievement; you are going to be making P300 000.00 mo go wena, I expect gore masika a gago a sure that they are physically fit. So, you are up taking. A go thuse. Fa e le gore o molemi, o rekise legapu o ipege. number of all of us here in your constituencies what are O re tanki Modimo o mphile treatment ya P300 000.00. I the initiatives that you are doing? Have initiatives that think we must have those difficult conversations because are your own at constituency level so that we can walk if we do not, re tlaabo re iphora fela. If you look at how the talk together. much this Parliament gave me; you gave me P5.2 billion when I came into this Ministry, today I am requesting Malaria is a concern. In fact this week I will be making a about P6.8 billion. If you look at it year in, year out, how statement ka Malaria. We have done exceptionally well far are you going to be able to give me that amount of to an extent that this year we were number one (1) in money when we have got a cash base that is coming in, Africa, we got an award, but because of the recent rains, that is not equally available? Therefore, please help me we have gone back a little bit. Some of my concerns is have this narrative and that is why I am trying to show we are experiencing Malaria in non-traditional Malaria where the money is and a kwa boitekanelong. Your areas. It brings to me a couple of problems. I have staff wellness aspect is going to be depleting the coffers, and that ordinarily are not used to seeing Malaria cases on that is why our focus is on that. a daily basis. I have people that ordinarily are not used You then mentioned a few pieces of legislation that you to knowing about Malaria. Ke gore if you take a person are happy about, I agree with you that technology is the who lives in a malaria area, o kgona go bona dikai way to go. In fact, if we use technology, we can even gore mo e tshwanetse a bo e le Malaria a bo a tabogela bring down the costs of provision of services that we kwa sepatela. A bo a ya go tsena kwa sepatela a bo a have. fitlhela mooki kana ngaka yo e leng gore le ene o kgona

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go bona ka bofefo. Fa o innetse kwa Radisele o sa itse MR KGOROBA: O botlhalenyana hee! gore gatweng, o tlaabo o tsaya gore ke tlhogo o bo o ya go reka compral o bo o nna. Fa gongwe e bo e re MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Kgoroba, you are by the time you get to the hospital, a bo go le thari e le out of order. Tswelela Honourable Member. gore there is nothing much that we can do for you. As a MS MAKGATO: …(Laughter!)… Honourable result of that, we have experienced, I will give statistics, Lelatisitswe, the other concern that we have that was I think so far we have got about five (5) people that have raised also by Honourable Mmolotsi is waiting period. died as a result of Malaria, and it is something that we He talked about cancer but for me it is not just waiting have to do. period for cancer; a re e bueng fela gore ke concern ya What am I doing about it? I have dispatched my team waiting periods for all the specialist treatments that we to all these areas because we are aware of each area have got ka go farologana ga tsone. It is something that because we keep the statistics, to go and reinforce. We we are trying to manage. Where we can see gore you will have to come with stronger campaigns for Malaria have been referred for this specialist treatment, it is in non-traditional Malaria areas. I know that you have how many days, some of it is communication because talked about even changing our paradigm of only the doctor must be able to look at the condition and spraying in Malaria areas and also spraying for these determine whether they put that on the waiting list or mosquitoes in non-Malaria areas. It is something that they talk doctor to doctor so that you can skip the list. my team and I will sit down and say how best do we So, these are some of the dynamics that we are looking address this scourge. at from within. Honourable Mmolotsi o buile ka Francistown. O ne a lebala go bua ka the private hospital that recently we also Honourable Reatile o buile le rona. You talked about started in the north. Ke dumelana le ene, Nyangabgwe is Sese maternity clinic, and you raised an area of a concern because of mosuke o o kwa Nyangabgwe but controversy ya gore I must train my people. I agree with there is a lot that we have done in Francistown to try and you entirely that I must train my people, but my people deal specificallyle mosuke. must also know that after training they must work. I do not want to be sending people to the University of I have said to my team we must go back to the drawing Botswana, they finish and they come back, fa a goroga board. I want to explain, we thought that the best way to e bile he/she applies for specialisation gone foo. Nnyaa, address our health is to establish centres of excellence; a a bereke pele, a tshware experience, fa a sena go e have Sekgoma as a centre for eyes, have Mahalapye as tshwara, gape a sena go busetsa madi ale a setšhaba the centre for bones, I will use terminology, e bidiwang ka go ba direla, e bo e le gone a ka tsamayang a re Shenaaz? o ya specialisation. So the major challenge that I have, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Orthopaedic. bone ba ba tshwereng dinneu, and I am being very very honest because I counsel them and I tell them the truth MS MAKGATO: Orthopaedic; mme go tewa marapo. as it is, whether they want to hear it or not, ke gore fa o Mma ke e bue ka Setswana. I think conceptually it is feditse sekole, my expectation is bereka pele e tle e re fa correct. o fetsa go bereka o bo o tsamaya. So, fa gongwe there HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… is lack of patience ya gore, “nnyaa ke setse ke bonye phatlha.” Ba o neng o bua ka bone ba phatlha, it is MS MAKGATO: Wa re clinic ya Block 6? Gatwe ga when a person now has gone a ya go ipatlela phatlha a o a buelela kgaolo wena, o buile fela ka biology ya bo a fiwa phatlha ya sekole, a bo a boa a tla kwa go nna bomme. Ke santse ke go tshwere ka pelo ke batla gore o a re, “nkisa sekoleng ke bone phatlha.” The world does tlhalose gore wa re biology ya bomme ke eng. not work that way. I think it has to be planned because if I do not plan it, I am not going to be able to provide It is okay because what you do is you consolidate the services tse e leng gore lotlhe le a di ngongoregela and you bring in all your skills at the same area and gore I am not able to do. It makes business sense and then it becomes easier, you achieve synergies and you it is logical for the Ministry of Health and Wellness to achieve all that. When you now look at our geographical train its people because then it becomes cheaper when landscape, I think we need to revisit that and establish you are using your own than having to import expertise. the minimum levels that we can still have within the So, there is no way I can work against that. facilities, minimum levels, re bo re re cut off is here, when you get to this level of specialisation e o e MR KGOROBA: On a point of clarification Mr tlhokang, then go to the centre of excellence. It is Chairperson. Honourable Minister, I do not think something that my team will look at, including looking gongwe ba ka nna le impatience ya go bereka to gain at other districts… experience before they go for further specialisation,

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but maybe create a more transparent process ka gore fa ORGANISATION 1200 - gongwe mo go Goromente go tlaa bo gotwe nnyaa mme ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE fa o ne o ka bereka for five (5) years, and then go bo go tla yo mongwe ene a na le three (3) years e bo e le gore MR CHAIRPERSON: Order! Order! Honourable o isiwa for specialisation, ba bangwe ba sa bolo go ema. Members, please note that 2 hours has been allocated I think ba na le poifo ya the process. So, maybe if you to this Organisation. I shall call upon the Honourable can be more transparent on the process, they will have Minister to reply to the debate at 17:15 hours today and trust in it. the question will be put at 17:45 hours.

MS MAKGATO: Alright, I can try and be more MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND transparent and I can certainly refine it, but it is not a SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Thank you Mr question ya gore 1 plus 1 equals 2 because it will depend Chairperson. Please allow me to present for the on what specialisation you are going to do. It will have consideration of this Honourable House, the budget to match with what my needs are. So, it is possible proposal for financial year 2017/2018 for the that somebody could have asked for this particular Administration of Justice. My presentation will briefly specialisation and then it is something that I do not highlight achievements and challenges during the need as much as the other one, so, go bo go raya gore 2016/17 financial year. ke isa mo gongwe. Certainly fa e le gore there is that Mr Chairperson, the Judiciary in Botswana is established perception that is out there, we would have to manage it under Section 95 of the Constitution of the Republic better than we are currently managing. as an independent arm of the Government with the I am looking at the time, can I before I move assure responsibility to administer justice in accordance Honourable Members that have raised areas of with the Constitution and other laws of the country. concern… Therefore its functionality and efficiency is important in the maintenance of peace and good governance in HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga o a bua ka nna. this Republic. I believe you are all aware that global international rating agencies in particular, the World MS MAKGATO: Honourable Kgathi, it was largely Justice Project and the Ibrahim Governance Index thank you. Wena tota o didimale ka gore o ne o kopa continue to place Botswana among countries with the o ba o itumela tota. O kopile gore ke ye Bobonong. I best judiciary system characterised, among others, will go to Bobonong, but it is important that I move by timely and effective adjudication, accessibility, Honourable Chair, but to the Honourable colleagues ba impartially, free from corruption, and free from improper e leng gore I did not respond to, I will respond in writing to you and then we can take it from there. The invitation Government influence, in both civil and criminal justice. to engage me; just come, I keep on saying having coffee, Overall, the World Peace Project has ranked Botswana tla fela kwa office o se ka wa emela gompieno. Le fa o number 1 in Africa and number 36 globally in civil ka nkwalela wa re Tona kwa kgaolong ya me ke tlhoka justice. For criminal justice, Botswana is ranked number sa gore, sa gore, I will respond. E tlaa re o tsena kwa 2 in Africa and number 47 globally and with respect to kgaolong wa re mme ene ke ne ke mo kwaletse ka mo the rule of law, Botswana is ranked number 45 globally. raya ka re, o nkarabile jaana, ga re a dumalana, than The only countries ahead of us in many of the indices in wait for next year’s budget presentation ya Ministry of the Sub-Saharan Africa and/or middle income countries Health and Wellness. are Mauritius, Ghana and South Africa.

I therefore move, Mr Chairperson if you allow me, that Mr Chairperson, it is also noteworthy that the Ibrahim the Recurrent Budget in the sum of Six Billion, Five Index of African Governance, which is Africa’s Hundred and Eighty-Six Million, Nine Hundred and leading assessment of governance, has consistently Seventy-Five Thousand, Six Hundred and Fourty Pula rated Botswana as a leading country in the practice of (P6, 586, 975, 640.00) under the Recurrent Budget for democracy and prevalence of the rule of law. This case Organisation 1100 be approved and stand part of the is yet another example that demonstrates existence of Schedule of the Appropriation (2017/2018) Bill 2017 Judicial independence in Botswana and further, the (No. 2 of 2017); and that the Development Budget in extent to which the courts in Botswana can interpret the sum of P639, 030, 800 be approved and stand part and review norms and pursue their own reasoning, free of those Estimates for financial year 2017/2018. I thank from the influence of rulers or powerful groups and you for your kind audience and I move accordingly. individuals. We believe as Government that these good ratings are earned largely from our respect of the rule Question put and agreed to. of law and general implementation of the court orders.

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Mr Chairperson, against this background, the amend the Rules of Court to incorporate the principles Administration of Justice will continue to initiate a of Court Annexed Mediation; (vi) establish libraries in number of strategies aimed at educating and sustaining Broadhurst, Kanye and Jwaneng Magistrates Courts, the existing local and international confidence in (v) facilitate the amendment of the Administration the Botswana Judiciary. These strategies include the of Estates Act (to address the number of challenges implementation of customer service strategy, customer identified as well as on the basis of the customer satisfaction surveys, conducting public education on feedback); (vi) pilot the use of the Real Time Reporting court systems’ procedures and etiquette through various Equipment in the High Court Division of Gaborone and media, including the use of telephone voice prompts. thereafter roll it out to other High Court Divisions and It is envisaged that such basic things as minimum to the Magistrate Courts; (vii) enhance the uptake of understanding and/or knowledge of the court systems, Information and Communications Technology (ICT) will sustain and enhance public confidence in the in delivery of justice in order to continually increase efficiency of our court systems at all levels, andin accessibility to case information and case disposal; transforming all negative perceptions into positives. (viii) introduce e-filing and improvement of the Court Records Management System (CRMS) (ix) introduce Other initiatives entail building the capacity of the a module on traffic cases in the CRMS, which will be Judicial staff by training them on court administration, piloted in Gaborone Extension Two and Francistown legal interpretation, translation as well as usage of Magistrates Courts, and thereafter rolled out to other stenographs for real time reporting. The Administration courts. These initiatives will be with a view to address of Justice will also sensitise Clerks of Courts, Bench the delays and backlogs experienced in the whole Clerks and Court Reporters on the Rules of Court to continuum of delivery of justice. improve their individual efficiency and accuracy in the reporting/recording of the proceedings. All these Disbursement of Child Maintenance initiatives are intended for effective facilitation and recording of proceedings across all the courts, thereby The disbursement of child maintenance funds to the improving the turnaround time in service delivery, beneficiaries through Government Revenue Offices including judgements. was piloted in Ramotswa, Goodhope, Letlhakeng and Molepolole. In the interest of customer service feedback, Similarly, focus would be placed on promoting among the Magistrate Courts have been requested to carry out the staff of the Administration of Justice high level analysis in their respective stations of the efficiency of work ethics using the Smart Work Ethics Programme, the usage of revenue offices, with a view to determine and to instil the culture of excellence in service delivery the number of beneficiaries per station. The setbacks through the roll out of the reward and recognition based identified at each station will be used to revitalise the programme known as Performance Based Reward new strategies for the expansion of the coverage. We System (PBRS), as well as the introduction of Employee are currently consulting the Ministry of Finance and of the Month recognition as benchmarked from the Economic Development on possible strategies for using st general civil service effective 1 April 2017. other payment/disbursements methods, including the banks and/or electronic payment methods depending on Achievements affordability and sustainability. A number of achievements have been recorded in the Establishment of Additional Magistrates Courts Administration of Justice during the 2016/17 financial year. These include the adoption of a strategic plan, In pursuit of improving the accessibility to justice disbursement of child maintenance and guardian fund, delivery facilities, the Administration of Justice (AOJ) construction and establishment of courts in several established Magistrate Courts in Shakawe, Nata and locations, deployment of mobile courts and many others Kang in 2016/17. It has also refurbished and relocated that I will not exhaust here. the Kasane Magistrate Court to a new site away from its previous location, which was under extensive infestation Strategic Plan by termites. Since my last submission to the Committee of Supply, Mobile Courts the Administration of Justice adopted its 2017-2022 Strategic Plan which will be implemented in the National The caravans and mobile courts procured in 2016/17 Development Plan (NDP) 11. In summary, the Plan aims were deployed to Maun, Francistown, Extension 2, to, (i) initiate the amendment of Court of Appeal First Kanye and Palapye Magistrates Courts. The mobile Schedule Fees; (ii) develop a plan for the benchmarking courts are used specifically for stock theft, traffic, exercise in relation to Court of Appeal processes; (iii) small claims and child maintenance cases. They have

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so far travelled to various places in the delivery of Mr Chairperson, for Recurrent Budget I request their service such as Kanye, Palapye, Metsimotlhabe, authorisation of Two Hundred and Sixty-Four Million, Gabane, Mogoditshane, Broadhurst, Gweta, Sehitwa, Seven Hundred and Ninety-Five Thousand, Nine Komana, Tonota, Nata and surrounding areas. Hundred and Sixty Pula only (P264 795 960). This represents an increase of four per cent (4 per cent) over Refurbishment of Broadhurst and Kanye last year’s approved budget of Two Hundred and Fifty- Magistrates Courts Four Million, Five Hundred and Seventy-Five Thousand and Sixty Pula only (P254, 575, 060). The four per cent The extension of Broadhurst Magistrates Court and (4 per cent) increase over last year’s budget is mainly the Kanye Magistrate Court are due for completion by attributed to increase in service charges. quarter two and quarter three of the 2017/18 financial year respectively. Four (4) Maun staff houses, have Mr Chairperson, for Development Budget, I request been completed with sufficient security features like Fifty–Seven Million, Four Hundred and Fifty- Five boundary walls and electric fences. However these Thousand and Ninety-Seven Pula (P57, 455,097) for projects took longer than planned due to the fact that the 2017/18 financial year. This presents a decrease the Administration of Justice is still facing challenges of Forty-Three Million, Eight Hundred and Seventy- relating to project implementation capacity and lack of Seven Thousand Six Hundred and Forty-Seven Pula requisite skills in their Ministerial Technical Unit. (P43, 877,647) or forty-three point three per cent (43.3 Development Expenditure Levels per cent) below the 2016/17 budget. The budget covers the completion of Kanye and Broadhurst Magistrate In terms of development expenditure, the Administration Courts; maintenance of court facilities; maintenance of of Justice spent seventy-five point two per cent (75.2 per Judges’ houses; purchase of Law Books; procurement cent) of its 2016/17 Development Budget which was for of vehicles; improvements to court security; and the construction of Kanye Magistrate Court; extension the improvements to houses for Magistrates. These to the Broadhurst Magistrate Court; establishment infrastructure projects represent ninety-two point of a gym facility and procurement of gym equipment three per cent (92.3 per cent) of the total budget. The for Judges at the High Court Divisions in Lobatse and remaining seven point seven per cent (7.7 per cent) of Francistown; upgrading of Court Records Management the budget will cover computerisation projects such as System (CRMS); procurement of Law Books; e-filing and implementation of the traffic module within procurement of vehicles; improvement of Magistrates the Court Records Management System (CRMS); houses; improvement of library; maintenance of court Real Time Reporting equipment, computerisation of facilities and Judges’ houses. Administration of Justice and the improvements to the libraries. Recurrent Expenditure Levels Madam Chairperson, this concludes my presentation The actual recurrent expenditure of the 2016/17 Budget of the 2017/18 Budget estimates for the Administration allocations is eight-five per cent (85 per cent) which of Justice. I therefore move that the sum of Two covered largely payment of salaries, utilities, service Hundred and Sixty-Four Million, Seven Hundred and charges and the needful domestic procurement and Ninety-Five Thousand, Nine Hundred and Sixty Pula individual expenses. only(P264 795 960.00) under the Recurrent Budget Challenges for Organisation 1200 be approved and stand part of the Schedule of the Appropriation (2017/18) Bill and The biggest challenge the Administration of Justice that the sum of Fifty-Seven Million, Four Hundred and is facing relates to the inadequate support staff to the Fifty-Five Thousand and Ninety-Seven Pula (P57, 455, Courts in the form of Court Reporters, Court Clerks, 097) under the Development Budget for Organisation Interpreters, et cetera. The desired growth is hampered 1200 be approved and stand part of the Estimates for the by the ceilings set in terms of the general growth of the financial year 2017/18. I move accordingly. Thank you. civil service. Notwithstanding the Administration of Justice is in the process of filling its vacant posts across “EXCHANGE OF SPEAKERSHIP” the Judiciary including the Magistracy. MR KGOROBA: On a point of procedure. Dumela 2017/18 Request Madam Chairperson ka ke gone o gorogang. Madam Chairperson, wena le your Deputy le selo se le sengwe. Mr Chairperson, It is now my pleasure to request Apparently when you left yesterday you had given two budgetary provisions for the financial year 2017/18 for opportunities to the other side of the aisle and then it both Recurrent and Development Budget. was supposed to be our turn, but it seems like the

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Deputy Speaker was not aware of that. When he took Magistrate Courts. So, it is important to address this as over this afternoon, he continued to give more debaters a matter of urgency because as Hayfron Benjamin, that to the other side instead of this side. So, ke ne ke kopa fine constitutional scholar and Judge who once graced gore, please collaborate accordingly with the Deputy so our shores said, “it is absolutely calamitous when the that this thing does not reoccur. doors of justice are bolted from within.” They are bolted from within when the records of proceedings cannot MADAM CHAIRPERSON (MS KOKORWE): Re be produced in time for people to pursue their legal tlaa e baakanya ngwanaka, nna fa fatshe. remedies. It is important for this to be appreciated.

MR BOKO (GABORONE BONNINGTON It is also important to appreciate that lately and in fact NORTH): Thank you very much Madam Chairperson. over a long period of time, we have had experiences of Ba re quorum. members of the Executive and civil servants, not taking advice from the Government legal representatives or HONOURABLE MEMBER: Check the quorum advisors. We have had experiences in the courts, where Madam Chairperson. Attorneys representing Government have had to be …Silence… asked, “did you advise this Director, did you advise this Permanent Secretary?” and they say, “yes, we did.” The MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Whips ga ba yo mo teng Judge then asks, “how did you find your way here when ga Palamente. Honourable Mmolotsi and Honourable this is a matter that you should have settled because you Kablay, ba tshwanetse ba ka bo ba etle ba nne fa. Ke are liable?” They explain, “well, we advise them but lona le ijelang nako, ga re ye go e oketsa ka kwano. Go they refuse.” So, you must advise these people that when raya gore go ya go bua fela ba sekaenyana. they receive legal advice from the Attorney General’s Chambers, they must take it, they are not lawyers and MR MARKUS: Point of order Madam Chairperson. experts. So, if they are told to settle cases, they must O tlaa intshwarela Madam Chairperson le fa ke tswa do exactly that. That is why Government is continuing mo tseleng, o tlaa nkomanya fela. Re nna fa re tshwere to lose a lot of money in heavy legal costs as you are quorum, ba ba buang ba botlhe ba nwa tee kwa! Re going to pay in relation to the Foot and Mouth case that tlhola fela fa, re lapile batho ba Modimo. Le rona re tlaa was decided last Friday by the High Court sitting in tlogela quorum e collapse. Sorry, Madam Chairperson. Francistown, when it pronounced that… MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa, a ko o tlogele MADAM CHAIRPERSON: The quorum has sorry. collapsed Honourable Boko. There is no quorum. Ke MR BOKO: Let me focus on one (1) or two (2) very gore ba bangwe ba a tsena... simple and straight forward issues because if I deal with HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... the more serious ones, I might lose the audience. Let me start by indicating that the biggest priority in relation MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Ke eo quorum. to the Administration of Justice should be the ease and efficiency of the production of court records and records MR BOKO: I was pointing out that there is a disturbing of proceedings of trials that have taken place before trend in terms of which public officers defy court the courts. This is because those who have either been orders with the result that some of them have had to unsuccessful and have to serve sentences of whatever be threatened with imprisonment. I remember the duration, need to advise themselves in time regarding Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Finance and also any appeals or any further steps that they may take and the Commander of the Botswana Defence Force (BDF). for that, it is absolutely essential that they have records It is extremely untidy when public officers disrespect of the proceedings of their cases. The biggest challenge pronouncements of the courts. It is also disrespectful to the Administration of Justice in this country despite of the professionals employed by Government when all these ratings that you have referred to, is the failure public officers disregard the legal advice that they have to timeously or at all produce records of proceedings. been given by these officers and cases end up in court A lot of accused persons who have been sentenced, end which they should have settled. Government incurs up serving substantial portions of their sentences or the heavy costs as they did last week Friday in Francistown, entirety of the sentences without having received their when the High Court pronounced that the Presidential court records in order to file appeals. This is totally Directive that ordered the slaughter of cattle in Zone 6 unacceptable and it is a result of the gross inefficiency was unconstitutional and unlawful. The compensation of the Court Reporting Clerks and the Stenographers of P1700.00 offered for each beast slaughtered in terms that operate, especially at the lower levels of the of Section 14 of the Diseases of Animals Act is also

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unconstitutional and unlawful. These are matters over against hearing an accused person who was chained in which the Attorney General should and I suspect did leg irons and handcuffs. Advise these people that they advise and that advice was disregarded. It is important must abide by the laws and the Constitution. That is the for us to make these points so that from now on, they Administration of Justice. Thank you very much. must appreciate that when they do so, they run the risks of incurring costs personally and we want to advise MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND them accordingly. COOPERATION (DR VENSON-MOITOI): I thank you Madam Chairperson. I stand to support the Minister We want to also indicate that the Judiciary, Administration and in doing so Madam Chairperson, I would like to of Justice is in a serious crisis because when Judges ask the Minister to consider two (2) small requests that took certain administrative issues and complained, they I have. were victimised, suspended and the long drawn process is currently underway which is discriminatory to the The first one is to look at the Administration of Justice extent that it excludes some of the Judges who have particularly in the far-off rural areas, where most of our signed that petition which is a subject of the proceedings people and voters are. People who do not have the means and also some who had received allowances were not to access justice but who need justice. People who may included in the list of those to be punished if there is any have wrong done unto them but who may not have the punishment due. means to reach justice. First because the courts may be too far but also because they may not have the means This is a conduct which undermines the integrity of near them. I appreciate that you have the Small Claims the Judiciary and we want to point this out so that you Court and the mobile, we should congratulate you for know that the Administration of Justice, must as it asks that. My worry is this Honourable Minister, we have for all these funds do the most important thing which is left the Courts of Arbitration to Local Government and to try and get its house in order and to also appreciate Rural Development to manage alone, I think for a bit too that when Judges have reached retirement age as one long. The role that Chiefs of Arbitration do, may seem already has, the extension by law available is to the to be far removed from the role that the courts are doing. extent that such Judge must deal only with matters that Nonetheless, it is Administration of Justice, when they are pending before him or her. He or she cannot take caution people against exchanging insults, stopping the any fresh matters. If that happens and you must make neighbour’s cattle from straying into the neighbour’s sure that whoever has attained retirement age has had field and against little offences that appeared domestic. an extension, that extension is understood to be limited, to having that particular Judge complete whatever cases Much as I may not agree with a lot of what Honourable were incomplete before him and nothing more. If any Boko was saying, even the documentation of a minor attempt is made to have that Judge deal with any fresh offence way back in a rural village about what happened matters, that would be a violation of the Constitution a long time ago, about a cow that strayed into a field, and there is ample authority for that and if you go that that offense may escalate into an axe being picked up route or the Administration of Justice or whoever goes and a limb being chopped off and a case ending up in that route, then they will be rendering themselves liable the High Court. Now, if the Courts of Arbitration were to not only incurring costs but also suffering serious allowed or trained or assisted to record these cases, to embarrassment. be given the power and wherewithal to do something about basic… I want to conclude by re-emphasizing the need to prioritize the timely preparation of records of ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL proceedings in relation to matters. These has been the GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT sorest point in relation to the Administration of Justice (MS TSHIRELETSO): Clarification. Ga ke na go in our jurisdiction. senya nako. Ke gore Headmen of Arbitration, ke ne ke tsaya gore ke yo gotweng ke moagisanyi koo, e se wa Lastly, please tell your Magistrates wherever they may dikgang tse di tshwanang le tsa go sekwa ga dikgomo. be that they are not the law unto themselves. Accused Ka gore e bile tseo ba Bogosi ba setse ba ntse ba di setse persons are not supposed to appear in the courts in morago gore e nne molao. Ga ke itse gore a mme a re re chains and leg irons and sit in the dock and go through bolae jone Bogosana jo bo agisanyang basadi ba lwa le a trail in that state. That is gross violation of people’s bana go omanwa fale? Ga ke itse. Ga ke e utlwe. constitutional rights. It has happened and when lawyers have challenged this, one lawyer was in fact, detained DR VENSON-MOITOI: Mma ke wele. What I am and I had to make overnight applications to get the saying is that, Rre Kgathi’s department should begin lawyer out who was trying to caution a Magistrate to pay attention to work with you. If we do not pay

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attention to assisting the Chiefs there by even giving ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL them a hardcover gore ke kgalemetse ngwana wa GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT ga mangmang gore lesa go nna o roga bana ba ga (MS TSHIRELETSO): Ke a leboga mma ka pelo e e mangmang, e le information fela. Kamoso ngwana botlhoko mo Letsatsing la Bomme. E botlhoko go bo yoo fa a rwele selepe a ya go rema yo mongwe, part ke sa bua mo kgannyeng e e amang bomme ya Health. of the evidence has been lost in a case that ends up in Pelo ya me e botlhoko tota, ke ya go tsaya dingwaga ke court. It might appear irrelevant as I stand here, but it sa le lebe sentle. is a matter to be reckoned with in evidence in a murder case that ends up in court. This is what I am saying. It HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)... is the Administration of Justice, ke tetlanyo. It is justice. MS TSHIRELETSO: Ee, ke a bua ka gore ke nna mo Those people are part of our justice system, they have Ntlong e. Yo mongwe a re, “dumela,” o bua letsatsi leno a serious role. They are very important, they need to be kamoso o a bua gape mo radio. He dominates the whole assisted and I am not condemning Local Government week a bua, mme a sa nne mo Ntlong. Ke a tswelela and Rural Development at all. I appreciate the role jaanong ke bua ka kgang e e fa. they do and I think we have to begin to focus in our effort Minister Tsogwane, the role that you are doing Ke re Madam Chairperson, ke kopa gore lephata le, le to support Dikgosi. There is one area where we have to fiwe madi. Re leboga gore makgotla a rona a tshekelo, move closer to Rre Kgathi to strengthen that which we a dira ditiro tse di bokete tse e leng gore fa o akanya go are doing and Rre Kgathi should listen to us. He cannot ya go tsena mo katlholong, ke namane e tona ya tiro. Ke deal with justice in the absence of the basic things in the go lala o sa robala, o bula dibuka tsotlhe tsa molao, o Administration of Justice. lebelela gore tota a ke ya go tsaya tshwetso e e tlaareng The second portion is this, we do not have… kamoso, motho yo o tlaabong a bonwe molato, ke bo ke e dirile ka matsetseleko. Go a lebega gore fa gongwe ba HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. a sekaseka ba lebile molao. E re fa gongwe fa go sena go DR VENSON-MOITOI: Let me just do this second sekasekwa molao, then it is challenged. Dikgang tse ba point. neng ba di setse morago, gotwe di ne di sa tsamae sentle. Go ntse go supa maiteko a bone gore ka bobone e le bo We do not have sign language as a matter of course Mmakaseterata, e ya bo e le gore ba lekile bojotlhe go in our courts. Sign language does not exist in all our tla go tsena fa ba tsereng tshwetso teng. Ke akgole tiro courts as a matter of course. We should begin to do this. ya bone gore ba tshwaragane le namane e tona ya tiro. I am talking about things that do not exist and I am not criticizing anyone that they do not exist. I am saying, let E bile ba mo mathateng ka gore ba mo bodiphatseng us think about them. Let us go and worry about them. jo bo gakgamatsang. Bangwe ba bone, go lala go Let us include them. Let us plan for them because they dikologiwa matlo a bone, and fa a kare o tswela fa ntle, are making justice unreachable for a lot of our people. If o ka nna a bolawa. Ke santse ke ntse ke bona gore ga go a woman has been raped in a remote village and the only ise go lekane mo tshireletsegong ya bone. Ba tlhokana thing they have access to is a Chief of Arbitration, in the le security se se bokete jaaka sa mapodise. Ba santse ba middle of nowhere and they are a person without speech dirisa sa rona sa batho ba ba tshotseng dithobanyane ba or hearing, the only thing they have is their hands to le fa kgorwaneng foo. Fa mmolai a itse gore kamoso go demonstrate the crime and to plead for help, go sena atlholwa case, fa a tlhasela Judge kana Mmakaseterata, yo a ka ikuelang kwa go ene, that person is lost. They ga go na thuso e e kalo, e a ka e bonang kwa ntle ga gore have no access to justice because ga a ye go kgona go ba bo ba na le tshireletsego nngwe e e farologanyeng. ikuela, ga go na yo o yang go kwala tsheko eo fa a leng Ke re ke ba akgole ka gore bontsi jwa dikgang tsa teng. This is what I am saying Madam Chairperson. I bone, di a sekasekwa, e nne dikgang tse di lebegang di am saying to my colleagues, let us think about these tsamaisitswe sentle. things now. Today is Women’s Day and I am hitting at the core of the things that plague the average women Ke batla gape go tsaya sebaka se mo kgannyeng in the rural villages where we come from. The things ya piloting, ya gore go ka duelelwa jang dituelo tsa that we should worry about to make sure that as we deal tlhokomelo ya bana. Tota kwa ga Mmakaseterata, ke with women that get raped in Gaborone where they can ntse ke sa rate le nna gore go duelelwe teng. O fitlhela call a police officer, let us worry about a woman without go tletse, lines di le foo gotwe madi a koo. Go kile ga speech, a woman without sight or hearing in the middle bewa letsatsi kwa Mahalapye gore ba ka tla ka la bokae. of a cattle post, kwa go senang ope, kwa a ka bonang Letsatsi leo gape go bo gotwe, ga go na yo o tshwereng Headman, mme le ene a tle a bone justice. I thank you madi foo, yo o tshwereng the keys ga a yo. Piloting e e Madam Chairperson. ne e le kwa Ramotswa le mafelo a mangwe, e tswelele.

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Ke re tota bomme ga ba a ikgolega go bo ba nnile le mobile court e ye teng. E tsamae dikgaolo tsa bo bana, gore jaanong o bo o ya go tlhola o dikologa letsatsi Shoshong, Mookane le Mahalapye, e le gore go a sekwa lotlhe o emetse dilo tsa ngwana, ga se gone. Kana tota ka gore seruiwa kana se a swa sone. Fa go ntse go le foo, ba a bo ba sa ye koo e le gore ba ile go tsaya madi a gape gakere ga di disiwe, di nna thata mo masakeng. ba ka a dirisang e le a bone. Ke a itumela fa gotwe a Bogodu jwa dikgomo kwa go rona bo ile kwa godimo ka ya kwa Revenue jaanong. Gongwe go ka duelwa ka fela thata. Maloba mapodise ba kile ba tswa ka sefofane bo Electronic Funds Transfer (EFT), a romelwa mo cell ba tsamaya le masimo a Mahalapye. Ba fitlhela masaka phones tsa bone, ba ya go a tsaya. Ke itumelela gore a a nang le dikgomo tsa bogodu. Fa di sena go nna di gongwe re akanya gore ba ka a tseela kwa dibankeng. tsewa gone fa, fa beng ba tsone ba sa di bone, magodu a Tota kgang e, e tlile late Tona, ya gore go akanngwe a di tsaya. Magodu mangwe a ne a tshwarwa, ba di tsere. gore madi a, a ka ya go bewa kwa kae. Go tla ka nako e e leng gore tota bomme ga ba a bolo go tshwaragana Mobile court Rraetsho Kgathi, a e atolosiwe. Re ntse le bothata. Mo e leng gore e a re fa motho a ya go bona re boka lephata le gore le na le dibase kana dikoloi tse madi, a bo a tsere dikgwedi gongwe tse pedi a tobatoba di nang le air conditioners mo teng, di na le sengwe le kwa ga Makaseterata. Ba bangwe ba kile ba tla ba le sengwe mo teng. Kwa ga rona kwa, go na le bothata bantsi kwa go nna letsatsi le lengwe ba bua gore, “kana ka gore magodu a godile. Fa o bona motho a tshotse rona jaanong ga re itse, batsadi ba bana ba isitse madi drums tsone tse gotweng ke diJojo, o se ka wa re o kwa ga Makaseterata. Kamoso yo ga a yo, kamoso tshotse metsi. O oletse dikgomo o di tlisa mo butcheries gatwe yo ga a yo ka the keys tsa safe.” Ke ne ke re a a gone mo Gaborone. Ba ba tshwere kwa Dibete, kooteng tswe mo go bo Makaseterata. Kana tota kwa Dikgotleng ba ne ba tlhola ba ntse ba feta. Jaanong motho a bo a tsa bo Makaseterata, ga se dibanka. Ga se kwa go ka adima koloi ya motho yo mongwe a re, “mma ke ye bewang madi teng. Fa ba atlhotse motho to support, go ga metsi,” e bo e le gore o ya go olela dikgomo ke re jaanong a e tswe mo go bone jaaka le akantse. moo. Motho o utlwa go setse gotwe, “koloi ya gago Jaanong pilot e, e se ka ya tsaya lebaka le le leele. Kana e tshwerwe kwa Dibete.” Fa a tsena, go fitlhelwa e le jaaka re bua gompieno, selo seo se ntse se tsweletse, gore e tshwerwe e tletse dinama tsa dikgomo, dinama di bomme ba tshwaraganye le bothata. tletse mo cold rooms kwa Mahalapye, e bo e le gore di a tsewa di tlisiwa mo Gaborone, kgantele dinama tseo Ga ke bone borre ba le bantsi ba batla support, mme ke di a bola. A ditsheko di itlhaganelelwe segolobogolo tsa itse gore go na le borre ba bangwe ba ba kokonelwang dikgomo ka gore tota mo dikgaolong tsa rona batho ba ke kgang ya support. Go na le bomme ba bangwe ba re ba lelang ke ba ba lelang ka dikgang tsa leruo. Ke buile ka sekeng ra re gongwe re a e latola kgang e, ba le bone ka dikgomo rra, mme fela tota dikgang tse tsotlhe di nna ba latlhileng bana ba ba tlogetse, borraabone ba ba tsere. lebaka le le leele. Kana mme ka fa molaong, ke gore mmangwana yo le ene a mo tlhokomele. O tlaa fitlhela e le gore bontsi jo Ya bofelo e ke e buang ke dikgang tse tsa thubetso, di bo nnetseng madi a, ke bomme. E late thata, ga ke itse tsaya nako e telele le tsone go sekwa, jaanong motho yo gore re ne re ntse re akanya ka bonya go le kae ka gore a ba a nna traumatised, depressed malatsi otlhe a gopola golo mo, ga go a bolo go diragala mo makgotleng otlhe se se diragetseng. Fa kgang e fetile, motho o a lebala, go a bo Makaseterata mo lefatsheng lotlhe la Botswana. tswa mo go ene gore a re nnyaa mme tota kgang e fetile, Mo e leng gore batho ba a bo ba tletse foo, o sa itse gore boammaaruri bo fetile, then she goes for counselling a ke ba ba sekang kana ke ba ba tlileng go tsaya madi kana a itlhoboga gore seemo se tsamaile jaana. Ke one a bone. mafoko a ke neng ke re ke akgele mo go one gompieno. Ke a leboga. E nngwe kgang e ke neng ke e bua ke ya the mobile MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): Ke courts. Gompieno jaana, dikgang tsa diruiwa dingwe a leboga Madam Chairperson. I think it is appropriate le dingwe; ditsheko tsa dikgomo, dipodi, ditonki kana at this time to take this opportunity to congratulate dinku, di tsaya nako. Mo kgaolong ya me batho ba Honourable Boko for his admission as Advocate of the Kudumatse, Dovedale, malatsi otlhe fa ke tshwere High Court of Botswana and other courts. It is befitting diphuthego, go na le rre yo mongwe ke yoo wa Modimo, for an esteemed scholar of law and an Advocate of o sale jaaka dikgomo tsa gagwe di tsewa di ya go nna Human Rights. kwa Machaneng. Le letsatsi leno, dikgomo tseo di ntse di kwa Machaneng. Ga a sa tlhola a itse gore a di tsetse Madam Chairperson, I wish in deliberating on this kana di dira eng. Gatwe di nnetse bosupi Tona. Ke kopa point, seek your protection in terms of Section 12 (1) fela gore, a tota mobile court e bereke le mo dikgaolong. of the Constitution of Botswana to freely express my Go se ka ga lebiwa mafelo a a rileng fela. A e re jaaka views. My view is that we are dealing with a crisis on go na le mafelo a a mo dikgaolong tsa rona le tikologo, Administration of Justice. Madam Chairperson, the

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Judiciary thrives on independence, it thrives on integrity, Our view this side is that the Judiciary has been captured it also thrives in public confidence, and as far as I am by the President of this Republic. He is the reason why concerned Madam Chairperson, the independence we are having this mess at the Judiciary; it has never of the Judiciary has diminished. The Judiciary has no happened in the history of this country that a President integrity, and it lacks public confidence and I will say has refused four (4) names recommended by the JSC. why. What I am saying; these sentiments are shared by The name of Gabriel Rwelengera, Gabriel Komboni, the Law Society of Botswana. We have been singing this Lizo Ngcongco, the name of Motumise; all these men song “improve the system of appointment of Justices were rejected, not withstanding the recommendation by of the High Court, Justices of the Court of Appeal and the Judicial Service Commission. It has never happened, Justices of the Industrial Court”. I know they do not it is the first time. fall under your jurisdiction, but it is high time they are also appointed on the recommendation of the Judicial It has never happened that four (4) Judges were Service Commission (JSC). We have complained about suspended over some flimsy, frivolous and vexatious the composition of the Judicial Service Commission charges that they have received overpayments. Who has which consists of the Judge President appointed by not received overpayment? Even some Ministers in this the President to his position as Judge President, Chief House have received overpayments. Go to the Attorney Justice is also a Presidential appointee, Attorney General, find out which Minister has agreed with the General, Chairman of the Public Service Commission Attorney General on the overpayment they received, on and other person preferred by the President and one member who represents the Law Society, five (5) out of a house that they resided in, vacated it and continued to six (6) are people who owe the allegiance to the Head get housing allowance whilst at that time there was a of State. relative who was staying in that house. You go there and single out 4 Judges when even in the Court of Appeal, Let us look at what is happening in other countries there are some Judges who are so affected with receiving Madam Chairperson, look at South Africa, Deans of overpayments from Government. Even in the Industrial Faculty of Law are represented in the JSC, Parliament Court, the answer was provided by Honourable Batshu is represented in the JSC, Advocates are represented in in this very House that even at the Industrial Court there the JSC, Attorneys are represented in the JSC and the are Judges who have received overpayments. Even some Executive which appoints only three (3) people to the Members of Parliament have received overpayment Judicial Service Commission in terms of the Presidential including myself, I had received an overpayment and appointee. Madam Chairperson, this makes us not to had to pay back. I was never reported to the police, I have trust the system of appointment of Judges especially paid because I was supposed to go for a trip, my relative that it is done under so much secrecy. got sick and I had been paid the per diem, so I had to pay it back. That is how we deal with overpayments in this Not long ago we were in Kenya with a few Honourable Republic. What is different about these 4 Judges? They Members including Honourable Moswaane. We have have signed a petition, twelve (12) of them and you had the opportunity to watch on television the search for single out 4 what about the eight (8)? What is all this? a Chief Justice of the Republic of Kenya. In this day and President Ian Khama has captured the Judiciary; let us age we still have Judges appointed in a manner that people say it here and now, the mess at the Court of Appeal is cannot be really sure how these Judges are appointed. because of President Ian Khama. It is even worse for the Court of Appeal that with the Court of Appeal we never even see advertisements, we Madam Chairperson, there was a determination by the do not know whether these people are head-hunted, who Court of Appeal, and the Judge President happened head-hunts them, and by coincidence, I do not know to have been sitting in that panel, that it is okay for whether it is by coincidence or it is by design, we have Batswana to be dismissed from their jobs without being 5 or 6 Court of Appeal Judges as white old male: no given reasons. It is a judgement of the Court of Appeal. females and very few Batswana. The bench at the Court Parliament never rushed to protect Batswana against of Appeal is not localised, why is that the case when this unjust and unreasonable judgement, but now look we have so many Batswana who can be Judges of the at what is happening. Parliament is busy, the Minister of Court of Appeal? Even in this very House, I can at least Justice, Defence and Security is busy trying to protect think of two (2) Honourable Members who qualify to 5 white, old men to continue to be Justices of the Court be Judges of the Court of Appeal but we still have a of Appeal when we fail to protect our own citizens, we court as if we are in apartheid South Africa. I do not now protect ... understand the situation where we see only white, old MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Order! Le modumo. male faces in the Court of Appeal. We need to talk about these things Madam Chairperson because we are very MR KEORAPETSE: We must talk about this racism much concerned. in the Court of Appeal.

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MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (MS can separate personal independence from institutional MAKGATO): Point of order Madam Chairperson. A independence. I am sure the last speaker was speaking mme gone fela re a bo re itirela sentle go bua jaaka re to the issue of institutional independence and I guess a bua jaana? I think that it is okay for us to highlight gore bit about personal. the people in the Court of Appeal dingwaga tsa bone di rileng jaaka re ka bua, mme there is a way and a Let me talk about personal independence and also say manner in which you say it. For us to be standing here that I think I am qualified, to actually assure this nation and referring to it as racist, five old men, ba seyo fa ba that when it comes to the personal independence of our sa ipuelele, a re bua sentle? Kana le lona le tlaa tsofala Judiciary we can say… gone fa. Ga re le bitse banana ba ditšhekwane. Ke gore HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… there is a way and a manner in which you refer to others in reference to age. We cannot just talk in an uncivilised DR DOW: Mr Boko, I do not know what kind of leader manner Madam Chairperson. you are, yo e leng gore fa batho ba bua o tlaabo o ntse o tsena, o tsena. Re ne re go reeditse. Did you hear me MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa, gone ga se point make side remarks? No! Behave yourself and be an of order, o ne o baakanya fela gore nnyaa, mme tlhe… adult. This is an adult forum. Just keep quiet and behave HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)… yourself. I was making the point Madam Chairperson that when MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa, le fa re le kwa we talk about personal independence we are saying that General Assembly maloba re a bo re ne re santse re le a Judge does not feel obligated to judge in accordance bolelela gore a go nne go buisanngwa sentle, go tlhaolwa with what his or her colleague says, what the Chief mafoko. Ga re kwa Puo Phaa Honourable Boko. Hei! E Justice says, or any other third person. I think one of se ka ya re ke bua o bo o bua, ke tloga ke go koba. Ao! the reasons we have such high ratings is because in this Tlhopha mafoko. Ke raya gore o bua points fela sentle, particular Republic, Judges are able to make the kind kana ke ne ke go reeditse. E bile e rile a nna fa fatshe of decisions that we do not see in other jurisdictions. ka mo raya ka re o a ntshira. Jaanong mathata ke gore o Whether anybody says anything to the contrary or tlhakatlhakanya mafoko. not, that is a fact. We have personal independence. I MR KEORAPETSE: Ke a leboga Madam Chairperson. think I can attest in terms of when we talk about our I am very much concerned that we failed to protect our Magistrates and our Judges. I have no doubt at all that own citizens. Parliament never rose and we never even they make their decisions knowing that they have the called the General Assembly to say let us amend the law freedom to do so. so that Batswana are protected. They cannot be fired That point Madam Chairperson leads to another without giving them reasons. You want to protect some comment that I want to make. I said I am going to foreigners because they are employed as Judges of the make five points. The second point relates to my call Court of Appeal in our country and they are white, old to you that perhaps it is time that after 50 years of and they are male. independence, you consider consolidating all aspects of There is no single female at the Court of Appeal, the Judiciary under one roof. I do not think 50 years after 50 years, batho ba Modimo! When we can have after independence we should still be having Justices, Madam Chairperson, a Motswana lady, well educated, because an officer of the Customary Court is a Judge experienced being employed by the International that make decisions about the freedom of other people, Criminal Court (ICC) but here in our jurisdiction we say they make decisions about whether or not somebody they do not qualify. Fa e le sengwe a ba tsamaye ba batle can be fined, and that we should actually be allowing ditiro mo nageng mo. Let us correct this situation and let that to fall outside the ambit of the Judiciary. I think it us be honest about it that mathata a ke a re a baketsweng is high time that we actually have those officers under ke His Excellency the President. Ke a leboga. one roof. I also want to suggest that even the Industrial Court should be under one roof. You know they make MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (DR DOW): far reaching decisions and they should be independent Thank you Madam Chairperson. Let me take this and also under one roof. opportunity to contribute to the debates on the budget for the Administration of Justice. In doing so, I will In fact, I want to make a comment that perhaps in make five points. The first point is an obvious one that some way is related to the comment made by the last there is nothing more important in a democracy than the contributor, again relating to personal independence, if independence of the Judiciary. When we talk about the you consider a Customary Court, I know it is a sensitive independence of the Judiciary Madam Chairperson, we matter, I know some people would not like me making

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this comment but you have to ask yourself the extent to this. First of all you must have a project locating the which somebody can be independent if the other Judges beneficiaries and where you cannot making other law that make that particular court are actually related to or policy to make sure that this money is ploughed back him by blood and the only reason that they are there is maybe for the benefit of underprivileged children or because they are male and born of certain people. If you children as a whole, but allowing it to continue to grow have the mandate or job to determine whether somebody like this, I do not think is a good thing. can go to jail or not, somebody should be fined or not, My last point relates to the role of police officers as then it is important that you reach that after proper prosecutors. I really think 50 years of independence is training, you reach that because of personal competence high time that prosecution really is moved to Directorate as opposed to who your father is… of Public Prosecution (DPP) completely and the police MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (MS are allowed to do their work; which is really to police MAKGATO): On a point of elucidation Madam and indeed collect evidence and that we do not fuse Chairperson. Ke batla to elucidate ke re o dirile sentle these two particular duties. With those words, I want to wa re kgalemelela Honourable Boko, re kgona go utlwa say again thank you very much Madam Chairperson. gore wa reng. O tswelele fela ka go kgalemela. MR MAJAGA (NATA-GWETA): Ke a leboga Madam DR DOW: Thank you Madam Chairperson. As a Chairperson. Mma ke simolole ka go lebogisa bomme woman, especially today on International Women’s mo letsatsing le kana mo malatsing a beke e ya bone, e Day, that is not a court that I could possibly even aspire bile gape ba le bantle, ba bonala gore sengwe se a diragala to because first of all I am disqualified because Iam ka bone, gape e le bone bo mmaarona. Ke bo ke tswelela female and because of who my parents are. I really think ke re gongwe e tlaa re beke yone e le e e tlang ga o na that it is high time we change that Madam Chairperson. go mpona jaaka Honourable Tawana Moremi, ke ya go kopa tante kwa Red Cross, ke ya kwa Gweta. Ka gore ke The third point I want to make relates to what you mo seemong se e leng gore fa ke ka bo ke na le dithata raised when you were presenting Mr Minister, you were se ka bo se rurifaditswe (declared) state of emergency talking about the child maintenance reports… kwa kgaolong ya Nata-Gweta ka merwalela e e koo. Ka ke se na dithata ke gore ke nne ke ya go tlhola batho ba HONOURABLE MEMBER: Correction. Modimo, mme ke boela mo Ntlong e, ka ba nthomile DR DOW: I am not taking any corrections. I have kwano. Modimo o teng, fa re tshedile lengwe letsatsi go four minutes left and I have got three points to make. tlaa siama. Ke bo ke tswelela Madam Chairperson ke You were talking about child maintenance. I think it is re ke ema nokeng kopo ya Lephata le la Administration indeed high time that you decentralise these courts and of Justice. Ke re tota dikopo tse di tshwenya rraetsho make sure that there is one such court in every village Honourable Kgathi. Go ya ka nna di ka bo di tla ka ba and in every district. I think every lawyer knows, half Attorney General (AG), e le bone ba ba di ikopelang mo the country I am sure knows that if there is one useless Ntlong yone e, ka gore ra re three Arms of Government. court order in this country is a child maintenance order. Jaanong di tshwana fela le ya Parliamentary Service It does not give women what they seek. If I owe the e e tlang ka Tona, e sa tle ka Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo bank today, I can tell you by tomorrow I will be having tsa Palamente. Ke kakanyo ya me eo, mmualebe o bua a Deputy Sheriff at my door. With a child maintenance la gagwe. Jaanong ke re gongwe bangwe batlhalefi ka order there is no process of ensuring that people actually batho ba tsena dikole, e nne batlhalefi, ba tlaa baakanya, comply with it. I think since the High Court is the upper re baakanye le Constitution yone e, e e leng gore e tsenya guardian of all children, by now they must have in place lefatshe le la rona mo mathateng letsatsi le letsatsi, mme a process by which to make sure that people respect e lebeletswe batho ba le teng, Batswana ba rutegile. Go these orders. pala fela gore gongwe e ka baakanngwa. Kana ga go molato go baakanya selo. Fa e le gore se siilwe ke nako, This leads me to the fourth point which is the Guardian gore se baakanngwe kante go tshogiwa eng, go tshabiwa Fund. Mr Minister, I really think that it is high time you eng? look at this Fund. It is overflowing and there are many reasons why the money is not claimed. I am sure one of Constitution fa e le gore kamoso it is patched here, the reasons is that, sometimes the amounts are so small, kamoso patch there, ke eng e sa baakanngwe ya it is not even worth the woman going to collect it at tsamaya le seemo sa gompieno. Ra nna lefatshe le all. If you have got P100 maintenance order e le kwa e leng gore re tlaa nna re fiwa the ratings tse go le Shakawe, o le kwa Maun, obviously you are not going boammaaruri. Jaanong Madam Chairperson ke re dilo to collect, as a result the money continues to grow. tse re tshwanetse gore re di lebelele jaana, kana fa re So I really think that we must make a decision about bua ka these three Arms of Government re bo re tsenya

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this Judiciary mo teng, tota go tshwanetse gore this bo Judges ga ba yo. Ke re nako e tsile jaaka maloba re ne Administration of Justice e nne lephata le e leng gore re bona Mother a ya kwa, re bona gore she is graduating tota ditsompelo tsotlhe di teng. Ka gore fa go ka se ke gore a tswe mo Palamenteng, level e ga e a mo lekana. go nne jalo in these three Arms of Government lengwe Nako e tsile ya gore batho ba e leng gore they qualify le la one le kgona go tlhakatlhakanya lefatshe. Ga se gore fa a le mo Palamenteng o ka tsewa a ya go dirwa High lefatshe le ka tlhakatlhakanngwa fela ke the strikes tsa Court Judge, go se ka ga senkiwa o kare gatwe batho bana ba bo University of Botswana, fa e le gore golo fa ga ba yo mo Botswana. We have got a lot of Batswana the rule of law, melao e tlaabo e sa tsamaisiwe sentle, who are capable, after fifty (50) years mme lefatshe le lefatshe le kgona go tlhakatlhakana. Kana lefatshe ga fa o lebelela tsa madi, some billions di nna di tsenngwa le tlhakatlhakanngwe fela ke masole kana the strikes. fela kwa education. Kante re ruta eng mo e leng gore Jaanong go na le batho ba e reng ba lebeletse dilo ba bo mo nakong ya gompieno re tlaabo re lela re re ga re ba re, nnyaa mme lefatshe le tlhakatlhakanngwa fela ke na bo Mmakaseterata le Judges go santse go na le tsa masole le the strikes. Dilo tse re tshwanetse gore re di Batswakwa. Ga ke ka ke ka dumalana le seo. Jaanong lebelele ka seemo sa gompieno. Madam Chairperson, ke re dilo tse a re di lebeleleng jalo, bana ga ba na ditiro, nako e tsile batho ba tsentse the motions ke kopa di tle, mme re ba rutile, mme ka fa fa o ya at courts dikgang re sekaseke this Constitution. Fa e baakanngwang teng di kgona go tsaya bo ten (10) years, eleven (11) years go dirwe, e nne Constitution e e tshwanang le tsa bo fa gongwe gotwe Mmakaseterata ga a yo. Motho wa Namibia le South Africa, tse e leng gore mongwe le Modimo a tswa kwa Tshokatshaa a ya kwa Francistown, mongwe is taken on board at the rule of law. I will be e bile segolo jang bangwe ba letso le e leng gore ga ke the happiest man ever. Then a babereki ba lephata le go ba ntshe ka leso legolo ba letso la Sekalaka le Sesarwa. sekasekiwe dituelo tsa bone, their working conditions, Fa a tsena kwa o kgona go nna a ipega, a se na madi, fa a gore ba se ka ba nna dipelo tshetlha, ba se ka ba tlogela tsena kwa kgang ke gore Mmakasetarata ga a yo. Ga go ditiro ba ya kwa mafulong a matalana. Ka gore fa go ka na bothata, a go bakwe leina la Morena. Fa a sa ya gone se ke go diriwe jalo, le bone ga ba ka ke ba dira tiro ya ka kwa, ke gore go tlaa ntshiwa the warrants tsotlhe. O bone sentle, ya go dira ka thokgamo kana go dira gore bo o ipotsa gore justice, fairness ya teng e fa kae gone the rule of law e diragale sentle. Bangwe ba tlaa tsamaya foo? Ke dikgang tse di tshwenyang tse di tshwanetseng ba rekwa gone mo, ba re prosecutors di rile, jaaka re gore di lejwe fela thata ka leitlho le le ntšhotšho go sa e tle re utlwe gotwe mapodise a rekilwe the files di lebelelwa sepe fela se se ka tshosang ope motho. nyeletse, ba a bo ba rekwa e le gore ke tlala. Ba bangwe Mma ke lebogele some courts tse di dirilweng maybe in ba batlisiwa le dilo tse di seyong. Jaanong ke dilo tse the last financial years kwa bo Tsabong, Nata jalojalo. e leng gore fa di ka se ke di diragale, ga re na go bona Le di oketse le kwa bo Tutume, mme le bo le oketsa le fairness le justice in this Republic. Re ya go felela re some prisons. Le fa le ka di dira e le small prisons ka ntse re dira these ratings tse e leng gore gantsi o fitlhela gore go ntse go tshwana fela, o ya go fitlhela motho a di dirwa ke those international bodies ba ba sa itseng tsewa kwa Selebi Phikwe a ya go seka kwa bo Maun a what is on the ground. I want now a local ratings agency ntse a le legolegwa. Dilo tseo le tsone le ka bona some or board, le yone e ko e nne fa, le yone e nne e tla ka the logistics gore di ka dirwa jang fa motho a ntse a seka a ratings tsone tse. Ka gore re na le bana ba Batswana ba le mo prison, o ka ya fa prison e e gaufi le that court to ba rutegileng, ba ba botlhale ba e leng gore go ka dirwa avoid expenses tse mapodise ba ba tlaabong ba ya kwa, a commission, bo Dr Madigele le bo Honourable Maele ba bangwe ba ya go ba tsaya bokgakala. Mo ditshekong, ke ba, ba ka nna on this board. boloi bo nna bo le teng, o fitlhela bana ba batho bangwe HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… ba setse ba re latlhegela ka mesepele e meleele. Dilo tse re tshwanetse gore re nne re di lebelela sentle. MR MAJAGA:…(Laughter!)…Ba dira tiro yone eo, gore gongwe e re re ntse re ipelafatsa ka those Fa ke tsena mo go e ya maintenance, o kare jaanong international ratings re bo re na le our local bodies tse golo moo ke kgwebo e bile le a lot of divorces di dirwa e leng gore le tsone di ka nna gone foo. Ke ne ke re … ke maintenance. Madi jaanong o kare go a phakwa, a go lejwe golo moo ka leitlho le le ntšhotšho. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE (GABANE- MR MAJAGA: Nnyaa, go tswa fela gore e tlaa dirwa MMANKGODI): Tanki Chairperson. Le nna ke tseye jang Father, batlhalefi ba teng. Ke re fa re lebelela the nako e ke akgele mo tshutisong e ke e bonang e beilwe Judges le the Magistrates after 50 years, ga ke itse gore ke Motlotlegi Kgathi fa. Ke na le tumelo ya gore our bana ba re ba ruta eng, mme ka fa o utlwa gotwe bana ga justice structure is flawed. Fa re bua ka justice, re bua ka ba hiriwe ba tlhoka ditiro, mme ka fa re santse re lela. O gore motho o seka kwa Lekgotleng la Setswana, kana fitlhela e le gore Magistrates le the High Courts gotwe kwa lekgotleng lefe fela, mme di tshwanetse gore di

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bo di le structured like their appeals ka gore when you Selelo se se tona sa Batswana rraetsho ke gore cases appeal, o ne o atlhotswe kwa Lekgotleng la Setswana, di tsaya nako e telele gore batho ba seke. Ke ne ka nna you end up going to the High Court. Sa botlhokwa se se le mme mongwe mo Kgotleng kwa a bua ka gore o tshwenyang ke gore, bangwe ba ba tshwanetseng gore na le bana ba ba senyang mme o bona ba ntse ba tla ba bo ba sekaseka mo molaong o, jaaka ba Lekgotla gantsintsi. Fa re botsa re fitlhela e le gore nako le nako la Setswana, ga ba a rutiwa. Golo moo o fitlhela e le ba a tshwarwa, ba thubile ba dirile melato e e rileng, gore ba ntsha dikatlholo tse batho ba felelang ba le ba neelwa bail. Jaanong go nna jalo go raya gore go a kwa dikgolegelong. Le wena nako nngwe fa o e bala o diega, go nna gotwe ba ya go letela tsheko ba le kwa bona gore katlholo o kare Kgosi ga a tlhaloganye se a ntle mo melatong e mene (4). Jaanong golo moo go raya buang ka sone. Ke ne ke re justice should come under gore tota… one roof, di nne kwa tlase ga motho a le mongwefela yo o tlaa lebelelang training and resources tsa tsone; a ke MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND Customary Court of Appeal kana jang. Ke tseela gore fa COOPERATION (DR VENSON-MOITOI): On a re ka dira jalo, ke selo se se ka nnang botoka. point of procedure. Ke mo tsamaisong gore the record may reflect wrongly fa e setse e balwa mo dingwageng. Gompieno fa o ka lebelela the Industrial Court, e eme Honourable Mokgware a re o ne a nna le mme mongwe, foo, it is under Trade Disputes Act. E batla eng koo? ka Setswana ga e ye go balega sentle mokaulengwe. Ke eng e sa tlisiwe fela ra tla go bona gore le yone e tle e tshwane le courts tse dingwe, e kgone gore le yone e MADAM CHAIRPERSON: O ne a nna le mongwe? bo e nna le Industrial Court Act ya yone jaaka re bona DR VENSON- MOITOI: Ee mma, “ke ne ka nna le go na le bo Customary Court Act le Court of Appeal mme mongwe,” ka Setswana re a e utlwa fela kwa e Act gore re tle re itse gore ba bereka jang. Kwa ntle ga yang teng. Ke ne ke re a tlhatswe gore … go nna jalo, re tlaa tswelela re ntse re nna le mathata a re nang le one ka gore gompieno jaana, ga go na ope MADAM CHAIRPERSON: A ko o baakanye yo o itseng gore the Judges of the Industrial Court di Setswana seo rra. tlhomiwa jang. They do not go through nneu e e teng, ga re itse gore a ba a tlhomiwa, they apply, ba a bitswa MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: Ke ne ke re go ne ga nna kana ba bonwa jang kae. Ke tseela gore Tona kgang e le mme mongwe kwa Kgotleng kwa Mmankgodi, yo o o tshwanetse go re o bue le ba ba maleba ba o nang neng a ngongorega ka gore o na le bana ba ba ntseng le bone, ba tle under the Administration of Justice. Ke ba tshwarwa gantsintsi ba dira melato, mme ga ba seke. justice, e nngwefela fela. Ke eng re tlaa simolola re e Nako le nako mapodise ba a ba tsaya ba re ba a seka, farologanya le tse dingwe? ba a ba busa. Jaanong o tseela gore ba tloga ba bo ba MR BOKO: On a point of clarification. Thank you. O mmolaya kwa phelelong ka gore nako e nngwe ke ene akgele mo go e go tweng jaanong kakanyo e e neng e tla yo o begang gore bana ba ba tswa go senyetsa batho. ka ene Tona yo, a re dingwaga tsa go tlogela tiro ga ba MADAM CHAIRPERSON: I now call the Minister Court of Appeal jaanong di gogelwe go bapa le lebitla fa of Defence, Justice and Security to reply to the debate. go 80. O ne o e bona jang yone eo? MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: Ke ne ke bua fela ka yone SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Ke a leboga Modulasetilo eo ke re, tota le yone ga se yone, ga e a siama. Ga e ka wa Komiti e. Ke tlaa bua ka bokhutshwanyane fela jo ke ya re batho ba setse ba a ja tandabala ga raro, go bo botona ka gore bontsi jwa dikakgelo tsa bakaulengwe gotwe ba ka tlhola ba ntse ba nna Judges. Ke dumela e ne e le dikgakololo tsa dilo tse re tsweletseng ka go gore rra le yone eo, ga e a siama tota. dira ka natla mabapi le go di tokafatsa. Ke dikgang tse E e tshwenyang e nngwe ke ya gore digente tse di mo go di tshwanang le go tsweledisa gore go dirwe mekwalo Goromente le parastatals, gatwe they are not supposed morago ga dikatlholo. to register le ba Law Society. Golo mo ba a lela, Law Ba Lephata la Administration of Justice ba tsweletse ka Society ngwaga e ngwaga e lela ka gone. Ke tseela gore thulaganyo e e tlhomameng go bona gore maranyane a golo mo ke gore le a bo le kgetholola batho. Lawyers tsa re tlaabong re a dirisa, re ka ba ra felela re tsweletse ga Goromente a le tsone di ikwadise di duele legal fees re a foloseditse to other courts. Ke sone se ke reng fela jaaka ba bangwe. Fa re ka dira jalo, re ka itumedisa dingwe tsa dikgang tse di ntseng jaana, ke maiteko a lawyers tsotlhe, go tlaabo go supa gore ga e tlhaole bape. re tsweletseng ka go a dira. Go tshwana le dikgang tse Se sengwe ke gore lawyers tsa rona tse di setseng di di neng di buiwa ke bo Honourable Boko, bontsi jwa ikwadisitse at the Registrar kwa High Court, go tsaya tsone ke dikgakololo. Le rona re a tshwenyega fa go nako e telele go bona ditlankana tsa bone. Golo moo ga na le ditiego tsa gore fa o sekile go tseye lebaka le le go a siama ka gore go tlaa tloga go ba nyemisa moko. kalokalo.

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Re na le bokopano jo re bo dirang mo lephateng jo e dirisiwang mo thulaganyong ya dituelo tsa letsatsi le leng gore re sekaseka kwa go nang le ditiego. Re setse letsatsi, mo setlhogong sa 1200, a dumelelwe gore a re kgona go ka itse le gore ditiego tsa go nna jalo di dirisiwe e bile a nne mo mokwalong o Rre Matambo kwa courts di fe go tswa kwa go bo Mmakaseterata. a tlaabong a o sutisa, o o bidiwang Schedule of The Chief Justice o na le thulaganyo ya gore o ka bona Appropriation ya 2017/2018. Ke nne ke tswelele jalo, gore o ka tsaya dikgato ka tsela e e ntseng jang kana go ke kope gore le ntetle gore ke dirise madi a a kana ka tsibosa ba ba tshwanetseng go dira tiro eo gore ba eme fifty seven million, four hundred and fifty-five thousand ka dinao ba dire tiro e. and ninety-seven Pula (P57 455 097.00), a e leng gore a tlaabo a dirisiwa mo thulaganyong ya tsa ditlhabololo Go na le dikgang tse di builweng jaaka tsa bo agente mo ngwageng wa madi o. Ke sutisa ka tlhamalalo e e ba ba seegetsweng kwa thoko, ke ka se ke ke kgone go ntseng jalo, Madam Chairperson. Ke re le ntheetse ka e akgela kgang e mokaulengwe ka gore o a itse gore e tsebe e e mochocho. Ke a leboga. santse e le fa pele ga dikgotlatshekelo. Jaanong ka one molao o wena o o itseng, re ka kgona gore re se ka ra Question put and agreed to. bua mo go yone. Dikgang tse di amang ka fa bo Judge ba hirwang ka teng kana ba tlhophiwang ka teng, ke mo go ORGANISATION 1300 – ATTORNEY rulagantsweng mo Section 103, ya molao o motona o o GENERAL’S CHAMBERS dirileng the Judicial Service Commission. Re a le utlwa MADAM CHAIRPERSON: You are asked to note fa e le gore jaaka le ntse le tsweletse le le Batswana, le that two (2) hours has been allocated to this organisation le Mapalamente, le na le dikeletso tse di tshwanetseng and I shall call upon the Honourable Minister to reply go dirwa, kana re puso ya batho ka batho, megopolo ya to the debate at 15:40 hours tomorrow and the question lona re a e utlwa, re tlaa nna re ntse re kgona go bona will be put at 16:10 hours. gore go ka tokafadiwa jang, dilo ga di a simologa di eme golo go le gongwefela. Ke na le tumelo ya gore le nako MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND ya fa re tsaya boipuso, thulaganyo ya to appoint Judges, SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Madam Chairperson, e ne e farologana le gompieno, mme go ile ga nna go the mandate of the Attorney General’s Chambers is to tswelela go na le thulaganyo ya gore go ka tokafadiwa provide quality legal services to the Government. This ka seemo se se ntseng jang. is done through its five (5) main functional areas, that is the Directorate of Public Prosecutions, Civil Litigation Ke utlwile Mma Venson, ka Courts of Arbitration. Re Division, Legislative Drafting Division, International gololesegile e bile re bereka le bone ka dinako tse tsotlhe, and Commercial Division and Corporate Services mo re ka amoganang dikgang gore re ka tokafatsa jang Division. mme we are ready gore re ka kgona go ka thusana. Re tlaa buisana le Rre Tsogwane, re utlwile dikgakololo Madam Chairperson, allow me to start by recognizing gore re bone gore re ka dira ka seemo se se ntseng jang. and congratulating the Attorney General’s Chambers for having defended a number of civil suits brought against Mobile courts le tsone di itebagantse le dikgang tsa Government, and also for having drafted a number of stock theft. Re santse re leka gore re kgone to balance legal instruments aimed at facilitating other ministries. I the scales across all, ba e leng gore ba lebagane le would also like, in particular, to recognize their having kgang e ke ba Directorate of Public Prosecutions facilitated this Honourable House through a number (DPP), ba ba sekisang, ke ba Administration of Justice of Bills, Statutory Instruments and Regulations which le ba mapodise. Ba e leng gore re batla gore fa ba were considered and passed by the House in 2016/17. tsamaya, ba kgone go tsamaya ka equipment e e tlaa ba This was made possible by their level of commitment, letlang botlhe gore ba tsamae. Gone jaana re santse re professionalism and expertise. na le dibese tse di dirisiwang ke ba Molaomogolo, ba Administration of Justice, mme fela maikaelelo ke gore, Madam Chairperson, it is a matter of concern that the ka bokhutshwane jaaka ke bua, dikgang tse le di buileng Attorney General’s Chambers still faces the problem of tse tsotlhe re di tsibogetse, re mo lenaneong la gore re attraction and retention of legal officers at middle and bone gore re baakanya fa kae, le go tokafatsa jaaka re senior levels, due to the attraction of the private sector, ntse re tsweletse. and sometimes as a result of lucrative offers from other Commonwealth countries, especially in legislative Ka one mafoko a a kalo Modulasetilo, ke kopa go sutisa drafting. It is however, encouraging that despite these gore madi a ke a kopileng, a diketekete tse di kana a challenges, there still exists a cohort of hardworking a bidiwang, two hundred and sixty-four million, seven and dedicated officers with long term commitment and hundred and ninety-five thousand, nine hundred and passion to the public service. By way of motivating sixty Pula only (P264 795 960.00), mo mading a a tlaa them to stay, the Chambers have come up with some

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rewards to deserving individuals, which include being for projects which are critical to the Botswana economy. given levels of responsibility and accountability During the period under review, the Division provided commensurate with the potential of an individual; legal services in the drafting and negotiation of several competency based promotions and performance based commercial and international agreements including in reward systems. Other low cost benefits offers to the areas of energy, mining, trade, military and defence officers as a motivation, have been cellphones, airtime cooperation. and laptops so as to facilitate hassle-free communication in pursuit of their work. Since April 2016, twenty (20) international agreements (bilateral and multilateral); and ninety one (91) Against this background, let me now take this commercial agreements were drafted on instruction of opportunity to highlight the performance and challenges various ministries. The most notable agreements being pertaining to these five (5) divisions of the Chambers. I the conclusion of the Economic Partnership Agreement take it, this document has been read and I will just skim (EPA); negotiation of the Tripartite Free Trade Area; through it. procurement of Kazungula Bridge; procurement of Morupule B Phase II, Unit 5 and 6 (Brown Field); Legislation Drafting and the transfer of Government of Botswana mineral One hundred and forty-seven (147) Statutory Instruments investments to Mineral Development Company and eight hundred and ninety nine (899) Government Botswana (MDCB). Notices, and twenty (20) Bills were tabled in Parliament The Civil Litigation Division and sixteen (16) were enacted into law. Eight Bills (8) were tabled during the February – April 2016 Meeting, This Division has maintained the momentum from and three (3) were enacted into law. Thirteen (13) Bills previous years of effectively litigating on behalf of were tabled during the July-August 2016 Meeting, and Government, including many cases that raise issues all the 13 Bills were enacted into law. One (1) Bill was of national interest, some of which are currently being tabled during the November-December 2016 Meeting, handled before the courts. The determination of these but not enacted into law. The Attorney General’s cases will define and strengthen our public institutions Chambers continues to promote the development of inter-relationship as well as the separation of powers. Botswana through ensuring that the laws drafted meet the needs of our growing economy and international Madam Chairperson, as part of improving the turnaround standards, as provided for in the various conventions, time in the provision of legal advice to ministries, protocols and agreements adopted at the international the Attorney General has through this Division been level. able to sustain its strategy of seconding legal officers to ministries from grade D1 to E1, depending on the Madam Chairperson, one of the functions of the complexity and volume of work per ministry. However, Legislative Drafting Division is the updating of the there have been challenges of retention of officers, and Laws of Botswana books. This service had to be the availability of positions to respond to the needs outsourced to Lexis Nexis (Pty) Ltd, a company based identified in all ministries. In the same vein, the Civil in Durban, South Africa, as there is still lack of this Litigation Division has become a fulltime member of expertise in Botswana. A contract for the services was the Criminal Justice Forum established in the Ministry th signed on 19 October, 2015 thus the work of updating of Defence, Justice and Security to deal with criminal st the Laws of Botswana books up to 31 December, 2014 and civil cases backlog. The primary task of the Forum th was completed on the 28 October, 2016. It is expected is to comprehensively identify administrative and st that the updating of the laws up to 31 December, 2015 legal challenges resulting in the backlog at all stages will be completed by the end of March, 2017. The of continuum of justice delivery system, and to come st updating of the laws up to 31 December, 2016 will also up with effective resolutions to the problem including be completed in the course of 2017/2018 financial year. undertaking data auditing, alignment of processes and Thereafter, the revision of the entire Statute Book will collaboration between all stakeholders. commence. International and Commercial Division The Directorate of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has a constitutional mandate to prosecute cases without fear Madam Chairperson, the Attorney General’s Chambers or favour, once the Director of Public Prosecutions has continues to provide legal advice on the negotiation a made a determination to that effect. However the and drafting of agreements relating to bilateral and fulfilment of this mandate has been hampered by limited multilateral cooperation for various ministries as well human resource capacity which has not been helped by as those relating to funding and execution of agreements challenges of staff retention, and the huge case load

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ratios per prosecutor. In my 2016/17 submission to the The envisaged alignment will also eliminate instances Committee of Supply, I indicated that the Directorate has where one agency can grow exponentially at the a backlog of cases. In addressing this, the Directorate expense of others, which may affect the turnaround time has undertaken extensive audit of the cases, which in for justice delivery as a continuum. This is because the the end resulted in the classification of the backlog on four institutions have a systemic influence and impact the basis of age, which also led to the redistribution of on the efficiency of one, or all others in the delivery of case load. The other challenges facing the DPP relate to justice. In summary it will be value-adding and cost the staff being over stretched in the performance of their effective, if in the long term, the spread and capacity of prosecutorial duties at the magistrates and higher courts; the DPP could be expanded across the country, such that incidents of reported fatigue and burnout due to heavy they are as nearest as possible to all courts, and other case load and shortage of transport. relational facilities.

Madam Chairperson, these numerous challenges faced Madam Chairperson, allow me to take this opportunity by the DPP require both short and long term intervention to express my gratitude to our sponsors who, continue measures, especially in relation to tackling the backlog to contribute to our capacity building efforts within of cases in all the five (5) DPP offices in Gaborone, the DPP. During the period under review, we obtained Lobatse, Palapye, Francistown and Maun. In Gaborone financial support from the United Nations Office on alone, there are one thousand three hundred and ten Drugs and Crime (UNODC) for training of DPP staff (1310) cases that have been pending before the courts in in the investigation and prosecution of wildlife crimes excess of eighteen (18) months, which is a benchmark and trafficking in persons. Such capacity building used by the Administration of Justice in its definition of has led, among others, to the increased number of a backlog. In addition, a total of three thousand three prosecutions for human trafficking offences. Their hundred and twenty-nine (3 329) dockets obtained from support also enhanced the prosecutors’ capacity in areas crime investigation agencies have been pending with such as sexual offences against children, gender based the DPP in excess of eighteen (18) months. violence, and the execution of extradition and mutual Madam Chairperson, to address these challenges, the legal assistance. DPP, in collaboration with the Criminal Justice Forum, Before I turn to my request, allow me Madam has drawn up an action plan to address the backlog of cases while taking into account related processes of Chairperson, to once again assure Batswana at large, the Botswana Police Service and the Administration of that any setback with respect to the Court of Appeal Justice. The immediate implementable actions derived will be rectified within the provisions of the law which from the action plan was the appointment of a Backlog will, in effect, demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt our Eradication Task Team led by a Deputy Director of commitment as Botswana, to good governance and rule Public Prosecutions; and the appointment of a nine of law in accordance with Constitution of the Republic. (9) member special team of prosecutors focused on eradicating the backlog. Madam Chairperson, let me now present the 2017/2018 Budget Estimates for the Attorney General’s Chambers. At the Government level, a decision has been made to In doing so, I will highlight those Accounts that have transfer all prosecutorial functions from the Botswana Police Service (BPS) to the Directorate of Public experienced increase or decrease. Prosecutions (DPP) as a way of consolidating the I request a total amount of Two Hundred and Six Million, function under one authority, and as a way of building Sixty-Nine Thousand, Six Hundred and Eighty Pula capacity within the DPP in the long term. (P206, 069, 680.00) for Attorney General’s Recurrent Madam Chairperson, by way of improving overall Budget. From this proposal, the Personal Emoluments efficiency in the justice delivery continuum, the Criminal account constitutes more than sixty-two per cent (62 per Justice Forum will be reviewed to ensure effective, joint cent) of the total Recurrent Budget and the remaining and/or aligned planning, and deployment of resources balance goes to Add Back and Other Charges accounts. between the Botswana Police Service, the Directorate of Public Prosecutions, the Administration of Justice This Budget proposal represents an increase of Seven and the Department of Prisons and Rehabilitation. This Million, Nine Hundred and Eleven Thousand and Four will be for purposes of avoiding situations where the Hundred Pula (P7, 911, 400.00) which is four per cent departments’ respective facilities may be situated so (4 per cent) increase above the 2016/2017. further away from each other that it creates challenges in terms of transport and communication between these PARENT ACCOUNT – 00110 SALARIES AND departments. ALLOWANCES

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Madam Chairperson, a total amount of One Hundred This Parent Account has been allocated Two Million, and Twenty-Eight Million, Two Hundred and Twenty- Two Hundred and Fifty-Two Thousand Pula (P2, 252, Six Thousand, Five Hundred and Ten Pula (P128, 226, 000.00). This represents a decrease of Nine Hundred 510.00) has been allocated to Salaries and Allowances. and Sixty-One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy There has been an increase of Six Million, One Hundred Pula (P961, 770.00) which is thirty (30) per cent below and Thirteen Thousand, Three Hundred and Twenty the 2016/2017 provision due to reprioritization of the Pula (P6 113, 320.00) under this Parent Account, budget. which is five per cent (5 per cent) above the 2016/2017 provision. The increase is due to annual increments and PARENT ACCOUNT – 04300 SPECIAL new posts for opening of Selebi Phikwe office for the EXPENDITURE Directorate of Public Prosecutions. A total amount of Two Million, Seven Hundred and PARENT ACCOUNT – 00400 GENERAL Forty Thousand, Two Hundred and Ninety Pula (P2, EXPENSES AND SUPPLIES 740, 290.00) has been allocated to this Parent Account. This reflects a decrease of One Million, Four Hundred Madam Chairperson, an amount of Forty-Three and Twenty Four Thousand, Nine Hundred and Sixty Million, Eight Hundred and Eighteen Thousand and Pula (P1, 424,960.00) or thirty-four (34) per cent below Nine Hundred and Fifty Pula (P43, 818, 950.00) has the 2016/2017 provision. The significant decrease been allocated to this Parent Account. There has been a occurred under the Vehicle Account 04333. decrease of Two Million, Eight Hundred and Seventy- Two Thousand One Hundred and Ten Pula (P2, 872, PARENT ACCOUNT – 01300 COUNCILS, 110.00) under this Parent Account which is six per cent CONFERENCES AND EXHIBITIONS (6 per cent) below the 2016/2017 provision. A significant A total amount of One Million, Six Hundred and Ninety- decrease occurred under the Legal Costs Account and Four Thousand, Seven Hundred and Ninety Pula (P1, Compensation (General Expenses). The decrease was 694, 790.00) has been allocated to this Parent Account. due to reprioritization of the budget. This reflects an increase of Five Hundred and Eighty- PARENT ACCOUNT – 00500 DEPARTMENTAL Four Thousand, Two Hundred and Seventy Pula (P584, SERVICES 270.00) or fifty-three (53) per cent above the 2016/2017 provision. This increase is due to mandatory annual This Parent Account has been allocated Three Million, local and external conferences on legal matters. Forty-Nine Thousand, and Eighty Pula (P3, 049, 080.00) Madam Chairperson, under the Development Budget, I reflecting a decrease of One Hundred and Ninety-Three request the sum of Forty-One Million Seven Hundred Thousand Two Hundred and Ten Pula (P193, 210.00), and Seventy-Seven Thousand and Nineteen Pula (P41, which is six (6) per cent below the 2016/2017 provision. 777, 019.00) for the Attorney General’s Chambers. The This decrease is reflected under the Library Books budget requested is as follows: Account due to reprioritization of the budget. The Expansion of the Directorate of Public Prosecutions PARENT ACCOUNT – 00700 MAINTENANCE to districts has been allocated Nineteen Million AND RUNNING (EQUIPMENT) Six Hundred and Thirty-Five Thousand Pula (P19, 635,000.00) to facilitate the start of decentralisation A total amount of Three Million Six Hundred and of the functions of the Attorney General’s Chambers Forty-One Thousand Eight Hundred and Ten Pula (P3, and the Directorate of Public Prosecutions and thereby 641,810.00) reflecting a significant increase of One improve access to justice by local communities and Million Five Hundred and Thirty Eight Thousand Two to achieve alignment to Mobile Courts run by the Hundred and Eighty Pula (P1, 538, 280.00), which is Administration of Justice. seventy-three (73) per cent over the 2016/2017 provision. Following a special appreciation that Attorney General’s Two Million Pula (P2, 000, 000.00) will be spent on Chambers has challenges in maintenance of electrical the restructuring of the Attorney General’s Chambers equipment; a special account was created for better following a Consultancy that was commenced in the and proper accounting. The increase is also attributable 2016/2017 financial year. to the growth and sub-contracted repairs account for maintenance of vehicles. The Construction of the Maun and Palapye DPP offices and Staff Houses has been allocated a total of Twelve PARENT ACCOUNT – 00800 MAINTENANCE Million Three Hundred and Sixty-Five Thousand Pula AND RUNNING EXPENSES (OTHER) (P12, 365, 000.00) for the review of the architectural

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designs which were developed in 2008/2009 financial cognisably unconstitutional. On the face of it, just year. This will be to accommodate co-location with looking at it without even thinking, you could see that the Directorate on Corruption and Economic Crime it was unconstitutional. One of the most glaring and and thereby achieve cost efficiency in terms of land embarrassing examples is they attempted amendment of acquisition, provision of utilities and construction, the Court of Appeal Act that was brought under some mobilisation and supervision. so-called Certificate of Urgency just this week. It was evident that the Attorney General’s Chambers had failed One Million Pula (P1, 000, 000.00) is for development to apply its mind properly or at all, to all the issues, and and implementation of quality management system they were prepared to advise Government to violate the and adoption of e-services at the Attorney General’s Constitution of the Republic. Such things are a terrible Chambers. embarrassment and they must not be allowed to happen. It is important to ensure that; 1) before any piece of The remaining Six Million Seven Hundred and Seventy- legislation is brought to Parliament or any Statutory Seven Thousand and Nineteen Pula (P6, 777, 019.00) is Instrument, it has been carefully scrutinised by an for procurement of Vehicles for DPP expansion projects experienced team of lawyers for compliance with the and also to meet the demands occasioned by the Mobile Constitution to ensure it passed Constitutional master. Courts under the Administration of Justice. In the absence of any such procedure, it should not come CONCLUSION before Parliament.

Madam Chairperson, this concludes my budget proposal MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND for Organisation 1300- Attorney General’s Chambers. I SECURITY (MR KGATHI): On a point of procedure. therefore, request that the sums of Two Hundred and Six Madam Chairperson, I appreciate the critique by the Million, Sixty-Nine Thousand, Six Hundred and Eighty Honourable Member. What I request be reconsidered Pula (P206, 069, 680.00) under Recurrent Head and is the manner in which the Honourable Member on the Forty-One Million Seven Hundred and Seventy-Seven floor is casting aspersions on the AG’s Chambers staff Thousand and Nineteen Pula (P41, 777, 019.00) under in the manner in which he is presenting his debate. As Development Head be approved and stand as part of per the decorum of this Parliament, as you know it very the estimates for the financial year 2017/2018. I move well Madam Chairperson, they are not here to defend accordingly. I thank you. themselves in the manner in which the criticism is directed to them. MADAM CHAIRPERSON: The floor is open. MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Boko, kgang MR BOKO (GABORONE BONNINGTON e kana re ne ra e bua maloba tota gore please, se supe NORTH): Thank you very much Madam Chairperson. bo Attorney Generals (AG’s) ka monwana. A ko fela o Let me start by indicating that it is important for the bue kgang e o batlang go e bua and le yone e o buang Office of Attorney General to be capacitated properly ka yone eo, kana re ne ra ba ra dumalana gore e name and fully. That it must have people with requisite skills e boetse kwa morago e ye go sekasekwa. Se ba supe ka and experience to undertake the work that they have to monwana, it is an attack on them. and that they must be able to do so without fear and without favour. This means that the practice that we MR BOKO: It is not an attack. have seen before of shuttling back and forth between the MADAM CHAIRPERSON: No, o se ka wa mphetola. Attorney General’s Chambers and the Judiciary; where Ao! a person becomes Deputy Attorney General, moves the next time to become a Judge of the High Court, comes MR BOKO: The Constitution of this Republic enjoins back to become Attorney General, goes back to the High us as we stand here in Parliament to speak freely and Court to become a Judge and ends up at the Court of truthfully, and to disagree where we can, but not to be Appeal. That arrangement is untidy, it is unacceptable. muzzled in the expression of our ideas. I am saying that It does not matter who the person is. the Office of Attorney General, not any individual, not concerned about personalities. The Office of Attorney The second issue that we need to appreciate is that the General must ensure that before any act, any Bill is Attorney General is responsible among other things presented to Parliament for its consideration, it has for ensuring that those that it advises, in this case the been carefully scrutinised and examined to ensure that Executive, are compliant with the law in every respect. it passes Constitutional master. Where it is glaringly I gave examples earlier of instances where pieces offensive to the Constitution, then it defied logic why of legislation have been brought to Parliament, for it should even have been submitted in the first place, Parliament to pass which pieces of legislation were

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and that is not casting any aspersions on anybody. It is on a case long investigated, and then to be pursuing perfectly within my rights as a Member of Parliament small time cases involving cases that should not even to speak these truths out. My point is, capacitate the be before the courts in the first place. The Office of Attorney Generals Chambers fully and properly so Director of Public Prosecutions must do its job and do that they can do a thorough job of scrutinising Bills that job without fear and without favour and without of advising, and ensuring; and I gave another example dictation by the Executive. earlier that the court has held in Francistown, in a most embarrassing fashion, saying that when the President We also must indicate that we have seen some reliance by passed a directive, he was not properly advised, and that this office. There are a lot of senior litigators there. The directive was unconstitutional. That an Act of Parliament current Acting Attorney General was in the civil division that vests in the Minister, the power unilaterally to for a very long time. He is an experienced litigator, yet determine the quantum of compensation in relation to cases are now been hived often given to some South somebody’s property having been expropriated that African advocates. Is it because there are no skills to do that was unconstitutional, that Section of the Disease a simple case involving a dispute between the Leader of Animals Act is unconditional and it was passed by of the Opposition and the Speaker of Parliament? You this Parliament. It does not take any serious examination want to go and bring us a young South African advocate to realise that that should not have been the case. I am with no experience to come and do that? saying; from now on let us ensure that this office is It is a searing indictment on the seriousness of the Office capacitated to carry out its functions. This is the point. of the Attorney General for them to be doing exactly that and it must stop because first it is a siphoning off of The second issue that I want to indicate is this; we have resources and sending them across the border but also been told since the days when the Director of Public again it is a vote of no confidence on themselves if that Prosecutions was a certain Mrs Dambe, that the duties is what they are doing willingly. If they are forced to do of prosecution were being taken entirely from the police it, then whoever forces them must be called to order. I and would now be carried out by the Director of Public want these things to be pointed out and in the ultimate Prosecutions. That has not taken place. It has been years instance for that office to appreciate the seriousness of now, and each time the assurances are given, and the the job that they have to do and lastly they must advise Minister has just been giving these assurances here yet the Executive. When the Judiciary is embroiled in again. It is no longer a question of just giving assurances turmoil, they must let the Judiciary find its own legal now; it is a question of acting and ensuring that these advice. When Parliament is involved in litigation, they assurances are given concrete expression in ensuring must let Parliament find its own legal advice because that the police stop prosecuting. That is a very, very for them to be playing all these roles, advising here and important consideration. there and all over the show creates a conflict that in the ultimate instance borders on the unethical. These are the The second issue that we need to deal with is the serious issues that need to be addressed in relation to very function of the Office of the Director of Public the Office of the Attorney General (AG), the Directorate Prosecutions. In terms of Section 51 (a) of the of Public Prosecutions (DPP) and indeed ultimately the Constitution, this is an independent office. The Director entire Administration of Justice. Thank you. takes decisions without dictation by anybody. Now let us look at a few examples; there is a case involving the ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TERTIARY Director of Intelligence, investigated by the Directorate EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND on Corruption and Economic Crime (DCEC), long TECHNOLOGY (MR MOLAO): I thank you Madam finished in terms of its investigation, referred to the Chairperson. Minister, I do support your budget request. Director of Public Prosecutions. The then Director has To submit that the Office of the Attorney General is very since passed on, a current Director is still seized with central to the operations of any Government or State the matter. There is absolutely no movement, but let the to the extent that as a country we need to adequately accused person be a certain Polson Majaga, accused resource this office, for it to be able to train, retain talent, of stock theft in some frivolous and vexatious manner, attractive and not be a training ground for private practice then there is a prosecution. Then the Director of Public if you like. There has been an outcry that lawyers come Prosecutions is on the game, yet when it is the Director through the Attorney General just for training and they of Intelligence, when the investigation has long been leave to go for greener pastures. We are forever saddled completed, nothing is moving. We want to see action, with the backlog of cases because we have got shortage we want to see equal treatment of cases that have long of well-trained and well-grounded staff or advisors been investigated and that now require prosecution. It and/or prosecutors to staff the Attorney General’s is unconscionable for this office to have failed to act Chambers inclusive of the DPP. It is incumbent upon

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us as Parliament and indeed as the Ministry responsible for them to be brought before our courts but this is a to ensure that we resource this department with the resultant of the lack of capacity. So this song ya gore necessary resources, be it monetary and otherwise for lawyers come in and go every day must become a thing them to train and retain experienced people so that of the past. We must make their job easier and attractive they can be able to adequately advise Government on if we are to enhance the confidence that the nation ought any transaction that Government undertakes. A lot of to have in our justice system. That is one aspect that I ministries and/or Government departments do not have wanted to underscore. resident attorneys. For me it should be a matter of course that every ministry has resident attorneys, one or two to As I have already said, I do support the budget but next advise on a day to day basis, on what happens or on the time around look at all these aspects and ensure that decisions they make. For us to be referring everything to these people are adequately resourced so that we can headquarters which is the Attorney General’s Chambers move forward as a nation. As Leader of the Opposition to offer advice causes a lot of delays. If each ministry has already said, the department to the extent possible, were to be staffed with at least one or two experienced should be using our local people to prosecute. Going lawyers, it will make our lives very easy and it will avoid across the borders is an indictment on our system as to every day litigations that are as a result of probably ill whether we do not have confidence in our people. We will advice or decisions that are made without the requisite lack confidence in our people if within the department legal advice. It is important that we take this department we do not have the requisite experience experience that with the seriousness it deserves, if we are to avoid these is necessary, hence we go out and outsource across the litigations that ultimately cause Government to lose a borders. We need to be looking at various ways and lot of money that would have been used in other areas means of attracting those who have gained experience had we taken the right decisions with legal advice to and left, bring them back where possible. That is one avoid litigation. area that we need to look at very seriously.

Central to this is that Government especially in our Minister, let us also look at staffing all the ministries Republic is the biggest employer, has the biggest with lawyers who can advise on a day- to-day basis, on budget and any decisions that we make whether it is to the serious decisions that are taken by ministries and not expend money or any decision that you can think of, move everything to Headquarters for advice. Thank you the nation is always on the lookout to see if it is the Madam Chairperson. right decision. As we develop as a country, our people become highly litigious, they go to court every day to MR MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST): challenge each and every single decision that they deem Modulasetilo, ke re ke leboge thata go bo o mphile offensive. It is not like in the olden days where people sebaka. Pele le nna ke re ee, mme ke fete ka tse di re would say, “fa Goromente a tsere tshwetso, re tlaa tshwenyang mo tsamaong ya nako. Pele ke ya mo go reng.” It is very important that as we request monies for tse di ntshwenyang, ke galaletse Advocate Boko, go this department we also have interventions Minister, of bo a bone tshwanelo kana a phunyeleditse, a fitlheletse procuring and retaining well-grounded professionals in go bidiwa Advocate. Ke re rraetsho, a Modimo a this department, well paid if you like so that we avoid go phatsimisetse sefatlhego, a go neye masego. O a situation where people will be tempted. This is one Motswana, o re dirile motlotlo rraetsho. Ka mabaka aspect that we need to look at very seriously. one ao, ke a go lebogisa rraetsho. Ngwaga o o fetileng e kile ya re ke se motho wa ntira motho. Wa supa fela The Administration of Justice is intertwined with the gore ngwana wa Batswapong le ene a balwe e le top Attorney General, they work hand in hand so we should five (5) ya Mapalamente ba ba kgonang. Ke a go leboga not be talking about Administration of Justice and leaving rraetsho. out the Attorney General, as if they are not one and the same people. We cannot talk of the other independent Mo dikgangnyeng tse di leng teng mo tsamaisong ya of the other one. So I ought to buttress this aspect that rona ya lefatshe la Botswana, ke na le gone go lemoga when cases go on and on without being prosecuted, the gore bomankge ba molao, e a re fela fa ba se na go fetsa nation loses confidence in the DPP especially. If the kwa colleges of education ba tsamaya ba tlhamaletse ba nation loses confidence in the DPP or the prosecution ya go ithuta. Fa ba setse ba boa, ba boa ba sokile thamo, department then the whole justice system becomes a ba gagametse jaaka kgomo e e gogang kwa morago, ba mockery, as they say, “justice delayed is justice denied.” sa dumalane le ditsamaiso tsa rona tsa bosekisi le tsa We should not be having a backlog of cases going to boikemelo mo Lephateng la rona, le le dirang le dikgang even 5 years, ultimately people go to court to challenge tsa boatlhodi le tse dingwe. Ke dikgang tse e leng gore that the case has been pending for too long and some are fa o reetsa gore ba bua ka ga eng, go setse go jwalegile acquitted on the technicality that it has taken too long mo lefatsheng la Botswana gore bone bomankge ba

34 Hansard No 187 Wednesday 8th March, 2017 ORGANISATION 1300 – ATTORNEY GENERAL’S CHAMBERS - Committee of Supply

molao; lawyers, ba lebile Puso ka leitlho le e seng lone. Ke re a mme ga se nako ya gore re itekole gore naare se se bakwa ke eng. Ka gore ke tsaya gore kitso ya bone e re tswang go ba e ruta, e tshwanetse go nna lesedi mo go rona, le go re fa bokaedi mo ditsamaisong tsa molao le thokgamo.

Ke gakgamadiwa ke gore go nna le ba Law Society, ba a tlhophiwa ba nna seopo sengwe, they still maintain se ba bangwe ba tswang mo go sone, gore o kare ga re a robalelwa ke ditlhokwa mo tsamaisong ya tsa semolao. Kgang ke gore ke mang yo o tshwanetseng go utlwa, yo o tshwanetseng go reetsa, yo o tshwanetseng go dira eng…

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR MASISI): Madam Speaker, it is my enormous pleasure to beg to move that this House do now adjourn, since the young man became an Advocate.

Question put and agreed to.

The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 6:00 p.m. until Thursday 9th March, 2017 at 2:00 p.m.

Hansard No 187 35 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Ms T. Rantsebele, Mr M. Buti, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms D. Pheko, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka, Ms B. Pinaemang

HANSARD EDITORS Ms W. Mbeha, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, G. Lekopanye

LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi

36 Hansard No 187