Sophie: Here's our fake ad.
April: Today's show is brought to you by our belief in consistency over quality and our mom's hugs. Thank you Margaret and Garmet for being the most important people in our lives. See, we're so good at this.
Sophie: If you're an advertiser and you want to work with us, contact us at [email protected]. Thanks.
April: This is a journey. We are not here to shame anyone who's not like "on our level" because, what level? I have moments all the time where I'm like, "Girl, you look like Ruben Studdard," like constantly.
Speaker 1: Calling Body Posi Sisters, hush those diet culture whispers. We like your body big or small. Rolls and ripples, all for all. Sit on down, it's time to chat. She's all fat.
Sophie: I'm Sophie.
April: I'm April and this is She's all Fat.
Sophie: The podcast for body positivity, radical self love, and chill vibes only. This week, we'll discuss politicized hair, self love mantras, and penis graffiti. Okay, April, what are you obsessed with this week?
April: This week, while we're in the middle of doing crazy party planning stuff, my sister came in town and we binge watched a whole series called American Vandal. Have you heard about this at all?
Sophie: Uh uh.
April: It's on Netflix. It's basically like a parody of Serial. Remember the Serial podcast?
Sophie: Yeah.
April: Like season one, but as a mockumentary, basically.
Sophie: Oh.
April: It's so funny. What it is, is this kid is accused of spray painting 27 dicks on 27 teacher's cars and he gets expelled. It's a whole conspiracy and it looks really bad for him because he's one of those kids that was already drawing dicks on stuff. Did you have this kid in your high school because I certainly did.
Sophie: Yeah.
April: Where he's just constantly ... he has like a popular tagline he always says, which is like, "Another day, another dick." She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 1 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com Sophie: Ew.
April: It's like all this evidence against him.
Sophie: Is he a little shit?
April: He's a stoner, but he has a good heart.
Sophie: Well, our kid who did that was not sweet.
April: No, not ours either, but this character is like a sweet guy. He's misunderstood.
Sophie: Okay.
April: Anyway, all these dicks get drawn on the car and there's this kid who's like a filmmaker at the school and he's like, "I'm going to get to the bottom of this." He's a Sarah Koenig. It's just so ridiculous and over the top where's like, "I mean, it couldn't have happened in eight minutes. 27 dicks? There had to be more people." There's so much, but then there's an episode about eight of the different characters, like the other students, and they're all a suspect in who did this.
Sophie: Oh my gosh.
April: It's good where's it's like Serial where every episode you're like, "Oh for sure he did, for sure she did it," but you never know.
Sophie: You never know.
April: Then it just ends up being this really deep exploration of the human psyche in the end.
Sophie: Whoa.
April: It's really good. This week, even though we're super busy with party planning stuff, we somehow got all the way through American Vandal, which is like eight hilarious episodes. It just reminded me of my high school. It reminded me of people I grew up with. There's parts about a vendetta against a teacher and so it reminded me of stuff like that where you always thought one teacher was out to get you, but were they really or was that in your head? It just really [crosstalk 00:03:07]
Sophie: Did they give a shit about you at all?
April: Yeah, like did they even know who you are? Meanwhile, you're home like, "Really? I got half a point off? They're jealous of me."
Sophie: I mean, as a teacher's kid, I heard teachers talk all the time and, yes, they do shit talk the kids. All the teachers do.
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 2 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com April: It's not in your head.
Sophie: At my school they did, but there were only 60 kids in a grade so everyone knew each other. I think everyone shit talked each other. I don't think it was just the teachers, but for sure, they would be like, "This kid, blah, blah," and I'd be in the other room like, "Hee hee."
April: I see.
Sophie: I can hear everything.
April: Oh my gosh, that's exactly what I thought was happening, but wasn't sure.
Sophie: I mean, maybe not at public school. I bet teachers are more like, "I have too much to do. Leave me alone." I mean, not that ... At my school, they were busy all the time also, but it was such a small community. What channel is this on?
April: It's a Netflix show. Brand new.
Sophie: What's it called again?
April: It's called American Vandal.
Sophie: Cool.
April: I think it just came out this weekend? If you guys like parody, if you like mockumentaries, and large ensemble casts, because there's 60 characters, I think.
Sophie: Whoa.
April: I would check out American Vandal. It really made me laugh.
Sophie: Cool.
April: What are you obsessed with this week?
Sophie: I'm obsessed, well, I don't know that I'm obsessed with this, but I'm currently writing with my best friend and running partner, Lindsey. We're writing a scary movie. We went to go see It and I read the book when I was 14 or 15 and it really scared me. I had a lot of nightmares. I had to skip through it and kind of read with one eye open, you know?
April: Is it a Stephen King?
Sophie: It's a Stephen King novel. It's like the most famous Stephen King one, the one with the clown is how people know it. We went to see the movie last night and I did think that the pacing was good. For me, I think I prefer a movie like The Witch that has more cerebral/tension scares or it follows, which is just like you're just really tense the whole She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 3 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com time, but it's not as many jump scares or scary images because I get those scary images in my head and then I have trouble sleeping because I see them. That's always been true. I've always had a very overactive imagination. I used to have night terrors.
April: Then, why are doing this to yourself?
Sophie: I like scary things, I just don't like disturbing things, if that makes sense.
April: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Sophie: But, it was interesting to me, I'm always interested in how they adapt books to movies and so this one, the original book and the original adaption with Tim Curry, he's just an amazing character actor. Do you know who he is? Tim Curry?
April: I think I've seen the first It.
Sophie: Have you seen this movie, Clue? It's like old movie about ...
April: Oh, the mystery night thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sophie: Okay, so he's the butler guy.
April: Okay.
Sophie: He's also most probably well known for being in the cult horror classic "Rocky Horror Picture Show".
April: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Sophie: Tim Curry's in the original and also in the original they do both plots. In the book, they have them as kids and then them 25 years later as adults and they have to come back and do more monster conquering. They don't do that in this one. They simplified it down to just the kids plot, I assume, so they could do a sequel, which is good. It's, I think, probably a good narrative choice so it wouldn't get too bogged down. Also, there's this really weird scene in the book, I don't know how they deal with it in the first movie, but in the book there's a weird scene where all the kids have sex together in the sewer. They kill It who lives in the sewer so they defeat him for the time being and then they can't find their way out and they all take turns having sex with the one girl.
April: What?
Sophie: Yeah, it's so bizarre. I was telling Lindsey about it last night. I was like, "Did I dream that this happened?" I looked it up. I was like, no, sure enough, there it is. All the comments on these articles, like the one we'll put in the show notes are people being like, "It was a beautiful scene. It's not sexual." It's like, they actually just had group sex." It's like f***ing weird, dude.
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 4 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com April: Are you obsessed or disturbed with it?
Sophie: I mean, both. They just didn't address it at all. Instead they have them all do a blood oath where they cut their hands and they'll promise to come back if It ever comes back. Yeah, I think a lot of scary books, including a lot of Stephen King's books, they just have weird sex shit in them, you know? I don't know. I don't know why we have to go to body horror quite so much. That's one of the reasons I preferred If Follows or The Witch or like Get Out even.
April: Those are more considered like thrillers, right?
Sophie: Yeah.
April: Is there a way to have elements of both and still be enjoyable?
Sophie: I think so. I mean, I think Get Out has both.
April: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Sophie: At the end, it has a lot of gore. I just don't think you always have to have a weird sex thing with whatever woman is in it.
April: It's always like some woman being violently stabbed in a bikini or something.
Sophie: Yeah, it's bizarre.
April: Like, why?
Sophie: Also, just one little thing, they do have an adorable little fat boy in it, which is accurate to the books and they treat him very compassionately, but then they do have a fat mom in it, a fat woman, and like every other male writer, he like hated fat women so she's not treated very well in the movie. I don't know. I would love to hear people's thoughts on the movie. Don't Tweet us and tell us that you like the weird sex scene because that's f***ing weird. Don't do that. I want to know your thoughts about the movie It.
April: Please Tweet us.
Sophie: Yeah. We'd also just like to, as a quick shout out, say this thing that April's sister just found.
April: If you go to instagram.com, pull up your phones, guys. Fattyonce is the person's name. They have photoshopped several photos of Beyonce as a plus sized woman with minimal context and it's incredible.
Sophie: It's so good.
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 5 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com April: She looks very thick. She looks happy. It's like Beyonce roller skating, fake as hell, I'm getting my full life so link in the show notes. If you guys become Patreon's, you'll get to see even more of us getting into the Fattyonce account. You're welcome.
Sophie: That's what we're obsessed with and/or terrified of. Let's move onto our review shout outs. Again, as a reminder, if you leave us a review on Apple Podcast, we will say your username right here so we're going to do that right now.
April: Okay, so we have to say thank you to a couple people for leaving reviews this week. First up, Becky Sue Sweet. Thank you so much, Becky. Next is, Shannez R. Our internet friend, Shannez.
Sophie: Love you, Shannez.
April: Always holding it down. We love you so much. You're inside of our heart. Next is Jordy_0426. Thank you, Jordy. Another one, Anna Anna Bo Banna Fee Fi Fo Fanna Anna.
Sophie: Just like, you've got to dedication to that if you're going to type it all out.
April: Thank you, Anna. Next one, we're going to read this review because it touched us so deeply that we must share. The username is ssff12.
Sophie: The review is, "I feel like Sophie's sweet voice is the sound caramel would make being drizzled over ice cream and April's dry, sarcastic humor is the red wine paired with it. These two are wonderful." Um, who are you and why do you write so beautifully about us? I'm so complimented?
April: You've captured my exact essence in a way that is, I mean, unfathomable. Thank you so much. Also, a little uncomfortable with how accurate because are you in this room with us? Where are you? Where you are?
Sophie: Thank you so much if you write a really nice review or like a really funny one. We might read the whole thing. But yeah, ssff12, you nailed it. We'd also like to do some Patreon shout outs. We have some Patreons this week we're really thankful to. One of them is Florence Elvina. Thank you so much, Florence. We're so excited to have you be part of the Patreon Fatty Fam and also Cory. Thank you so much, Cory. We really appreciate you guys. As always, there's lots more info and goodies if you become a Patreon. Last in this section is some correction and some updates for you.
April: So, last week we told you guys to head over to the Call Your Girlfriend feed to hear our featured episode. It's actually going to be dropping this Friday, so tomorrow, October 6th.
Sophie: Yeah.
April: Head over there. We're going to be talking about Oprah, like we told you guys last week. We're so excited to tear apart our most problematic fave, Oprah Winfrey. She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 6 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com Sophie: The final update is just that we had our party last week. It went super well and we'll have pics of everything, including all the photo booth pics if you were there up on the Facebook page as soon as we get them back. Thank you, again. Shout out to Dani of Dazey LA for being the most supportive and the best photographer we could ask for. Thank you to our comedians and to both of our sisters for coming out to support, including April's sister coming all the way from Minnesota. Thank you to my best and most beautiful friend, Lindsey, for being our MC and for making all of the friendship bracelets that were such a huge hit. They were gone by the end of the night. We'll give you a longer rundown with some audio clips of the night when we figure out what we want to do with it.
April: Truly, a magical evening. For everyone listening who joined us, thank you so much for coming out and for eating the donuts before I got a donut. I'm not mad, I'm happy you enjoyed them.
Sophie: Okay, great. We should really get To The Meat of It, don't you think?
April: Yep. Let's do it.
Sophie: The Meat of It. This week on The Meat of It, we're talking about politicized hair, which falls under our mission of talking about fatness through body positivity, which is about creating justice and space in the world for all different kinds of bodies. This week, we're looking at that through the lens of politicized hair. April, we already talked about hair like last week on It's Okay, You Can Ask. What else could you possibly have to say?
April: There's so much. Everyone truly strap in because I feel like all I talk about is my hair and ...
Sophie: Your lip gloss.
April: ... And Gossip Girl, and my perfect skin, and lip gloss. That's all I care about.
Sophie: That's true.
April: But, since we are talking about body positivity, and a really important part of body positivity is race, I wanted to talk about black hair. I'm a black lady, I have a ton of black hair, and my hair is political. I've gotten through my entire journey in the past, but a little shortened version is just that I got my first relaxer when I was five, which is really young for it.
Sophie: Is it?
April: Yeah, most people start, I think, when they're in middle school, but I specifically asked my mom to get a relaxer because everybody else had one. It makes your hair a little bit easier to manage so my mom was like, "Fine." I started getting a relaxer in kindergarten and then it went all the way through to high school and then made the decision to stop relaxing, shave my head, and then see what came out, which I was the first girl at my She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 7 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com huge, public high school to go natural. Everybody was like, "You're a bald head. You're ugly," and I'm like, "You guys. I'm political. I've never been more woke. I'm doing it." But yeah, a large part of my hair journey was a political choice to be like, "I'm black. I no longer feel like straight hair is the only way to be pretty. I want to see what I actually look like." But, important to note that not all black women's natural hair is a political choice. A lot of black women are just kind of like, "My hair is my hair. It's not a big deal. Whereas, I kind of am like, "My hair is my hair. I am my hair." You know what I mean?
Sophie: Yeah.
April: I feel like the blacker my hair got, the blacker I felt and it's a political thing in that, sometimes people think natural hair is not professional. Sometimes in different careers you'll face pushback if you show up with natural hair. I don't know if you knew, but natural hairstyles were banned in the Army until very recently. You couldn't have cornrows, you couldn't have certain types of weaves because they were like, "It's unprofessional. It doesn't match," which are all sort of code words.
Sophie: Do weaves count as natural hair?
April: Well, basically, it's natural hair, but it's also lots of ways that black women style their hair, regardless of what they do to it, are seen as unprofessional unless it's like straight. I think for a lot of black women, the choice to have natural hair, whether it's an afro or whether you're wearing in braids or even if you're wearing in twists, it's like you can look at me and you can see that I'm no longer obsessed with trying to get as close to this ideal white image of beauty. I'm more interested in my own versions of beauty.
Sophie: Yeah.
April: A lot of times if you talk to a black woman who just became natural, you can hear the politicalness of the sentiment. Sometimes I'll go to the natural hair section at Target to get hair products and stuff. If you ever talked to anyone, she'll be like, "Yeah, I'm rocking my fro. I'm with it. This is what it is. My hair's going to be glistening. Curls popping. Melanin Popping." It's like ...
Sophie: All the hashtags.
April: All the hashtags that, if you look closely on our Instagram, we are using. But no, it's about hair, but it's also about figuring out how to fit your blackness into your idea of beauty. Also, with black women, a lot of times hair is another method of assimilation. If I straighten my hair, if I cover my thick ass body, maybe people will let me blend in and maybe I won't stick out so much, I think is a lot of the rationale. A lot of what we're raised to hear, like I was saying when I first went natural, my mom was really like, "You're going to look unprofessional. You're never going to get a job," because that's what she was taught and that's what a lot of black women are taught. This new generation of women who are like, "I'm showing up with my full afro and I don't care," really is sort of a radical thing that I think aligns with body positivity and that it's like, "My hair looks like this because I'm black so I'm going to just assume that I'm going to She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 8 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com be treated with respect, regardless of what I'm doing with my hair." I'm not going to do anything to it because I like the way that it grows out, you know?
Sophie: Yeah.
April: In the show notes, I'm going to link to this article at Essence where they kind of track a bunch of different political black hair moments throughout history. I'll read a couple. There's some really good ones.
Sophie: Yeah.
April: There's one, it says 1972 power fist, the grand dame of revolutionary hair, Angela Davis holds up the black power fist at a rally in Bulgaria.
Sophie: Yes, Angela Davis.
April: Yeah, she's iconic. It's like her. They talk about her afro. They talk about the first time that afros were featured in a lot of ads, like marketing.
Sophie: Oh, cool.
April: It's kind of just like no longer ads for relaxers, black ...
PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:17:04]
Sophie: Cool.
April: And so it's kind of like no longer ads for relaxers. Black women are finding products that will enhance their curls instead of trying to fight them. So it's cool! It's like this long slide show of through the ages, how did we get to black is beautiful, Afro is beautiful of a journey.
April: So check that out. Yeah, but in general I just kind of wanted to talk about how, I think black women, their approach to body positivity is really different than the way white women break it down, because it's almost like if you search the body positivity hashtag, you won't see a lot of black women. But I think black women are acting out body positivity. They're just not calling it that.
Sophie: I think from what I've seen on Instagram, it's more black specific hashtags, because it's more tied with I'm proud of my identity as a black woman. I don't see as much, I'm proud of my identity of as a fat black woman. It's black first, you know?
April: And then I almost think that the other parts of the identity are implicit.
Sophie: Yeah.
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 9 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com April: It's kind of like, I love my body, I love myself, I love my hair. You love your black hair, you love your black self. Its always kind of tied up. So I like to look at the different ways that black women act out the body positivity while kind of figuring out their own way to talk about it or like express it. It just seem really different within the communities, which is kind of interesting to me.
Sophie: Have you ever had one of those experiences of being at work and having people comment on it?
April: I think ... not so much. I haven't been called unprofessional and I think it's because of my industry. I work with television and work with creative stuff.
Sophie: It's like white show up in sweat pants every day.
April: Totally. But it's not that people call me unprofessional, but that they'll feel entitled to touch it or they'll want to ask a lot of follow up questions. I had one boss recently that said that my hair was full of delicious textures. Like that's what she was like ... And I was like, I know that you're trying to compliment me, but [crosstalk 00:18:42]-
Sophie: She was white obviously, right?
April: Oh, of course. There's an inappropriate amount of focus on my hair and I think when I walk in with a bunch of black hair, people think that I want to have a conversation about it. And sometimes it's just like literally it grows out of my hair like this. I like sprayed some oil on it. I don't always want to talk about it.
Sophie: Yeah. But I mean you did say it is a political statement, you know? I think it can be ... Not that I'm poor white people, but it can be a little confusing sometimes when it's like, "This is a political statement," and then it's like, "But don't talk about it."
April: It's a political statement, but every single room I enter in, everybody's eyes go to the-
Sophie: Yeah. That's way too much.
April: I don't constantly want to talk about it.
Sophie: For sure.
April: I think people just have to feel it out. If we know each other maybe I'll let you do it and it's okay and you can ask me.
Sophie: Well, it's one thing if people have explicitly been like, "You can talk to me about it." It's one thing if you're telling me about the politicization that you feel about your hair. And I think it's inappropriate for a boss or someone in a work place to comment on your body period. But with friends and stuff, it does for me, I'm like, I know I want to know how people are thinking about their bodies and in what ways. But it is hard without extra
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 10 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com level of ... you know, like I said last week, white women are always being yelled at for asking about black hair. It's so pretty. I just want to know.
April: I mean I so appreciate the adoration, but to me sometimes I feel like a petting zoo a little bit.
Sophie: Of course.
April: You know what I mean? And I think that's a line.
Sophie: Yeah. And that's not cool.
April: That's a line. So, that's what I think about my black hair. What do you think about politicized hair Soph?
Sophie: So I have white hair, which is pretty boring. Or average, you know? My sister used to call my hair princess hair because it gets very long and curly. Or it was when I was younger. And then when I got older, I wanted to look older, so I cut it short. But my hair on my head has never been that much of a thought for me. It's more when I've thought about hair in a political way, I've thought about my body hair, and about whether or not to shave body hair as a way to kind of ascribing or rejecting traditional fem beauty standards.
Sophie: So, you know I'm a history nerd. I've linked a bunch of articles in the show notes about the history of removing body hair, mostly in America, where it wasn't really a thing until about 1915. Because in the recent past, which is like the last 200 years basically, women wore such huge, voluminous dresses that you wouldn't see your armpits or your legs. So it wasn't until 1915 about when sleeveless dresses started happening, and then armpits started being shaved and pushed by advertising. The same time that diamonds, as in engagement rings became a thing because ads were like, "Get this rock or you're nothing! Rock is your value."
Sophie: The Gillette started doing the same thing. And then it wasn't until the '40's that leg hair was shaved, which actually interestingly is kind of tied to the war effort. Nylon was in short supply because of, I don't know what you used to kill people that's made out of nylon, but there was a shortage of it. And so then women were going more without nylon, or without stockings or whatever. Whatever you want to call them. Tights. And so there started to be more of a conversation about shaving your legs or not.
April: In the early days of advertisers trying to get people to shave, how were they shaving? With like just the same razors we use?
Sophie: Okay. From what I can see, they're mostly using the kind of razors you get as a bulk buy. I will put some images in the Patreon post for this episode, but if you look, there's one of the articles that I link, it's going to have a bunch of advertisements in it, and they are always doing the leg up on the side of the tub, already clean shaven leg and then what looks like a normal Gillette razor. She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 11 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com April: Okay.
Sophie: Unlike the barber razor that you would use to shave a face. We weren't out here with huge murder razors.
April: That's what I'm worried about. Like the nine inch...
Sophie: No.
April: ... loose razor.
Sophie: Yeah, yeah. No it's just traditional ones. We haven't had a lot of new razor technology. Yeah. So, in this one article I found, again in the show notes, I found that I'm not the only one who's stopped shaving their legs or their armpits. A lot more women have stopped doing that recently. It has been written up several times as a millennial trend. We're ruining Malls, we're ruining everything. We're ruining shaving.
April: We need to go to a department store and shave our freaking legs.
Sophie: In 2013, 95% of women between the ages of 16 to 24 shaved or waxed their underarms. And in 2016, that had dropped to 77%, which is a pretty significant drop in only a few years. I feel like that's a pretty big sociological change. And for leg shaving, again for 2013, it's 92%, and in 2016 it's 85%. So that's still like most young women, but that 10%, that's a big change, you know?
April: So, do you think it's fair to link it directly to feminism? Or what are the other reasons people could have for not shaving?
Sophie: I think so. I mean I think that it's kind of linked both to like this newest wave of feminism, which kind of feels kind of tied to millennial, "Why should I have to," feeling. And also just the "natural", not in the sense of black hair natural, like you were saying, but in the sense of like, essential oils trends that have been happening. I don't know. There's different takes on literally every single article that I read. I think just talking more about it, and being more aware that there's other options. You know, kind of the same way that the reason I stopped shaving my legs is when I became body positive as I decided that was my official philosophy. And I was like, "Why am I doing this?" And I was like, "Well, I don't really want to." Do I feel like clean shaven legs are more appealing, and if so, why? And it's like, "Yes." Number one, they do feel way better in sheets when I get in bed.
April: That's my reasoning for shaving, because I don't care about what anyone thinks. I'm just trying to feel smooth when I go to bed.
Sophie: It feels very great. Yeah. But it takes so much time. It's overall an inconvenience and I often, the way I'll ask myself is, do men have to do this socially? And if the answer is no, am I doing it because I like it, which is my answer for makeup, for example. But I don't like shaving, so I don't have to. I don't know. I also as a young teen, I was like, "What are She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 12 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com women doing?" Like I could tell people were supposed to "shave their armpits and their legs", but I was like, "What are people doing with their ..." as they would say in Seventeen, bathing suit areas? You never know. I just remember ... Do you remember that ad with the woman standing behind the different topiaries? You know, a bush that is in a circle and then in a triangle.
April: I do remember that ad.
Sophie: Remember that ad?
April: Oh my goodness. It was supposed to be like, which one are you?
Sophie: Yeah. And I remember looking at it and being like, "Are these the options?" Like, "What do people do?"
April: Oh my goodness.
Sophie: I'm not going to talk about that personally. But I think that is also a political choice. And there's a lot of interesting discussions to be had about that. But I do recommend the Outlander season two episode where Claire, the main character, gets "the whole French treatment," and her husband is shocked and amazed.
April: Oh my goodness.
Sophie: But anyways, I just would have liked to say that, it is a political choice for me to shave my legs or not shave my legs. And the same with my armpits. It is an easier choice for me to make because, number one as we talked about, we're both writers, so we're not in industries where people are going to be like, "what are you doing?" And number two, because I'm white and so my physical choices are less scrutinized than a woman of color. Also because I have a long term male partner, and so I don't have to think about this in context of the dating world. I can totally understand if people are like, "Yeah. I would rather not shave my legs, but I don't want to talk about it every time." You know what I mean? Or, "I don't want to be judged by it."
Sophie: I have lighter of body hair, so I know for some of my friends, like my Greek friends, or whatever, they have darker body hair and they're like, "Yeah. I shave my arms because otherwise I look like ... I don't like the way I look." Okay. Sure. I don't deal with that. And also, as I become more comfortable with being bi, I feel more comfortable presenting in a not totally straight cis woman. I mean I am cis, but I don't feel as pressured to conform to like straight woman aesthetic paradigms, if that makes sense? So it's a fairly easy choice for me, and I wouldn't be mad at myself if I decided one day I wanted to feel those flannel sheets on like newly shaven legs.
April: Oh my goodness.
Sophie: But yeah. Those are my choices. I think recently, because it has been kind of a trend, it can seem a little bit like, "I don't shave my armpits and I'm so brave!" And I'm like, "Ah." She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 13 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com April: Those conversations kind of make me a little weird, because it's like, I think the answer at the end of the day is you should do what you want, and it's not a big deal. But I think with feminism a lot of people get bogged down in the, "Is it feminist if I grow my mustache," and we're getting distracted. I think that there has to be some sort of middle ground.
April: So conversations like these remind me of that controversial Zadie Smith incident a couple months ago. So I'm going to read this little excerpt from a Jezebel article we will link in the show notes.
Sophie: Sure.
April: According to the Times of London, Smith told attendees that after watching her seven year old daughter's habit of spending a lot time looking in mirrors, she imposed a crisp 15 minute time limit. "I explained it to her in these terms. You are wasting time. Your brother is not going to waste any time doing this. Every day of his life he will put his shirt on, he's out the door, and he doesn't give a shit if he wastes an hour and a half doing your makeup." So after this comment, she had a lot of controversy, and people were saying, "You're literally a conventionally attractive light skinned black woman." Like, "What are you doing?" But I think for me, I don't know, it's hard to balance these conversations because I kind of think you should be able to do whatever you want. I don't want to police other people's decisions. I think makeup is fun. I think shaving your legs feels nice. I think it's also exhausting and you have a lot of tools that are necessary to shave your legs.
Sophie: Yeah. It costs a lot of money.
April: It's expensive. It's like maintenance. I get it. But it makes me tired I think as a feminist, when we spend time policing each other. And this is not about culture appropriation. We will talk about that later. You deserve to be called out for that. This is about, I don't need this light skinned lady telling I'm wasting my time if I do a contour. Why is that your business?
Sophie: I mean I think just like almost anything else, feminism is about creating a choice. It's not about telling women how to act. I think it is always worth examining if your choice aligns with the norms of patriarchy. So I do think about it when I'm like, "I'm going to get glammed for a night out." Yeah. I am making my face look more like the patriarchal ideal. I still have fun doing it. I'm not doing it for men. I just think it is ... I hear what she's saying, but again, I'm like Zadie Smith, you're beautiful with no makeup, so of course you feel that way. Not that like, I mean you can do no makeup and be 100% uggo too.
April: It just means something different coming from her. And it's a good judgment that you would never relate to if you're perfect.
Sophie: I mean that's why I personally choose not to shave my legs. Again mostly because I'm lazy, and I don't want to, and I don't feel a need to. But I would never be like, "You're betraying womanhood by shaving your legs." It would only be if you were like, "I shave She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 14 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com my legs and I think everyone should." Or you were using it in some way. You know what I mean?
April: I just think that's the line. I think we have to give each other the grace as feminists.
Sophie: Again, it's like kind of the same across the board. It is feminism schooled to create choices and create equality. Again, you should examine what choices you're making. That's it. The end. I don't know what else to say about that. I do think that another thing we were going to talk about is that a lot of fat women I think use their hair kind of as a crutch to feel like their closer to fitting into patriarchal norms, because you can be super fat and yet your hair is just still like a thin woman's hair, you know?
April: I think it's like when you shop for hair products, it doesn't matter what size you are, you can convey your sexuality, because I think that a lot of fat women, it's easy to feel desexualized. Is that a word?
Sophie: Yeah.
April: Yeah. Desexualized. You're like, "No. I have long luxurious hair. I can kind of control how people are interpreting my sexuality." And I understand that, but I also do think it can be kind of a crutch. And so I wanted to read from this Reductress article. I hope you all are reading Reductress.
Sophie: They're so good.
April: They make me laugh.
Sophie: Yeah.
April: So this article came on my feed this week and it's called "How to rock your curves by wearing a full face of makeup at all times." And it's hilarious! Okay. So I'm going to read a little excerpt.
April: Nothing is sexier than confidence. Not matter what your body type is, the best look is always positive thinking and a smile. But if you're curvy, another good look is a full face of makeup and a professional blow out. And later in the article is says, top it all off with an impossibly thick blunt bang to cover most of your curvy face. That's beauty baby.
Sophie: Yeah.
April: Made me laugh so hard, because honestly how many fat girls do you know who are like, "I'm pin up."
Sophie: So many. Oh my God.
April: And I'm like, "Girl, do your pin up," but I do think it's hilarious that it's so many that are like, "I'm wearing lots of patterns. I'm wearing red lipstick." She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 15 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com Sophie: Yeah. No, I think in some ways it's definitely a thing that some fat women use to cover their internalized fat phobia. I mean but I'm also like, if you love your hair and you love playing it, more power to you. This is not to say, how dare you care about your hair. I just think it is an interesting trend.
April: Yeah. It clearly is a trend if they're able to like, that specific look. I'm like, "Oh, I've seen it" [inaudible 00:32:05] like 30 times.
Sophie: Oh my God. Totally. Totally. Yeah, I mean I think part of it too is it's that clinging to traditional femineity where, as you said, fat women often feel desexualized. And so if you're trying to feel super feminine, and in a way that's appealing to straight men, then yeah. Maybe you do feel the need to have shiny hair or whatever.
April: And that's a way to explicitly communicate like, "No. I'm a woman. Look at my red cheeks. Look at my bangs." Like, "I'm a woman. Look at my singed waves."
Sophie: I think part of that's because, in media especially, we see fat women with short hair are almost always portrayed as butch or queer, you know? I can't think of any, except for like in movies like Shallow Hal, for example, where you don't see her as fat usually, you see her as thin. So when she's fat, she still has super long hair.
April: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.
Sophie: You know? But for example, in Orange is the New Black, the very queer butch lesbian, she has short hair. There's like not other fat women with short hair.
April: So true.
Sophie: You know? But in real life there's lots of fem, fat women with short hair and also with long hair. I don't know.
April: Whatever you want, you guys.
Sophie: Yeah, it's fine.
April: The moral of the story is literally whatever you want.
Sophie: Yeah.
April: Just ask yourself why. And then if its chill, then do your thing.
Sophie: Yeah. I've linked more resources in the show notes, and written some more about our personal perspectives on politicized hair in the Patreon post for this week's episode because we have a lot more to say about this. About beards and hair when you have PCOS, and the intersections between religious coverings in hair, and endogeny, and Europeans women's relationship with their body hair, and how angry it makes me
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 16 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com personally that women in post apocalyptic movie or TV scenarios somehow have clean as a whistle pits after months of being on zombie island or whatever.
April: They're like exfoliated and stuff.
Sophie: It makes no sense. I'm like, "Let me see some stubble please."
April: Truly.
Sophie: But yeah. There's so much to say about this topic, but I feel like we covered ...
PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:34:04]
Sophie: Yeah, there's so much to say about this topic, but I feel like we covered it.
April: We covered it and we want to hear from you guys. Please Tweet us or write us in and let us know, what do you do with your hair? Why do you do it to your hair? Is your hair political? What's up?
Sophie: Do you feel like your opinions on it changed as you got more into body positivity or as you got fatter? Because mine did.
April: We want to hear from you.
Sophie: That's The Meat of it for this week. We've solved the problem of politicized hair on women and fem bodies. You're welcome.
April: You're welcome.
Sophie: Here on She's All Fat, while we don't believe in capitalism, we are looking to sell out. This week, we're supported by our Lip Smackers and our friendship bracelets so if you'd like to become a beloved advertiser and support us as well, just contact us by our website. Thanks.
April: Now, it's time to Ask a Fatty. If you want advice, you can send a voice memo of yourself asking a question to [email protected]. Let me just please note, no one's done this yet. Send us a voicemail. I want to hear your voice.
Sophie: If you send a voice memo, we can play it on the pod and that would be so cool.
April: I want to hear your wonderful voices as a part of our art. I get tired of hearing my own voice, like please let me listen to yours. Okay, you can record it on your computer or the voice memo app on your iPhone. Just keep it short, about one minute max, or if you're shy you can send us a plain, old email at fyishesallfatpod.com and we might answer your question right here on the show.
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 17 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com Sophie: This week on Ask a Fatty, we have a very special letter from Hannah and here's a condensed version of what she wrote. Hi, Sophie and April, how do I talk to my boyfriend about needing affirmation that he's attracted to me and doesn't think my body is gross. I'm tall, and broad, and chubby, and I have struggled with really deeply hating my body and how much space it takes up ever since I can remember being aware that I even have a body. I've educated myself about body positivity and I try not to consume media that only includes thin people, but if I'm being completely honest, I still want to be thin so badly that sometimes it's all I can think about, even though I know damn well how destructive that is and that I'm just brainwashed to be that way. I don't know how to talk to my boyfriend about this stuff and let him know that I need to hear him tell me that he's attracted to me or that he likes the way I look.
Sophie: I feel like that's so not sexy and sounds so needy and lame. It feels like I'd be admitting to him that I don't like myself and I'm not confident. Isn't that like the most unattractive quality a person can have? He's only dated thin women before me and I've never had a boyfriend before so this is all new and scary for me. I feel like it's such a vulnerable conversation and what if I just can't do it? What if he just confirms all my fears and crushes my self esteem even more? Do I just have to prepare for that possibility and do it anyway?
Sophie: Okay, Hannah, thank you so much for writing this letter and you truly put your heart out there for us and we were very honored to receive this. We're going to do the best we can for you.
April: Dang, Hannah. Honestly, yeah, she just really, yeah, spoke to my heart. I don't have a boyfriend so I'm going to defer to Sophie on this because I'm single and I don't need no man. But, that said, going into dating, this is always a fear. I've been on first dates where I like walk in and the guy like rolls his eyes and is like, "Ugh. I'm mad your fat." Like, that's happened. It's a fear. In relationships it's hard because I get what you're saying as you don't want to make it seem like you're needy and you need someone to validate you, but you also want to feel loved and feel appreciated without feeling fetishized. How does she do it?
Sophie: Okay. In my opinion, there's really two separate issues here. This first one is that Hannah clearly already knows, which is that she's not totally feeling her body positive politics in her heart yet. That's the difference between body positivity and self love, where it's like you can believe 100% intellectually that everything should be equal and blah, blah, blah, and yet, in your heart you're like, "But, am I ugly?" It's hard to love yourself. Here's my steps for that part of this letter, which is that you have to feel that you're attractive. Nobody else can do that for you. Some steps to help with that, number one, add some fat women who look like you, like find fat models or fat personalities who have your body type.
Sophie: If you're tall and chubby, then there's lots of models who look like you. Add them to your Tumblr feed or to your Instagram feed, or just seek them out on a daily basis. I did this when I was first trying to get into this and just seeing images of women who look like you, and even if they're just performing self love, makes a huge difference. That She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 18 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com would be step number one. Step number two, I would recommend, would be to write down how you want to feel about your body. I did this ... I just made this up, I didn't read this anywhere. I just wrote down like, I want to be able to say, "I love my body. I think I am attractive." Every day, I would look at it, I would say, "Okay, can I say this today and think it's true?"
Sophie: If not, what aspects of it could I say? I would look in the mirror and be like, "I really like my face today," or whatever. Sometimes that's all I could do and sometimes I couldn't even do it, but it's a mental practice. It's a habit that you have to get into to work on it because just believing in body positivity is not going to make you have self love. That's the first half of it. The second half is that, yeah, you do not need affirmation from your boyfriend. Your boyfriend cannot make you feel attractive. That is on you. But, you can communicate that your needs in a relationship include more verbal validation and affirmation. One tool for that would be to have both of you take The Five Love Languages test, my favorite thing in the world.
April: Sophie made me do this, you guys. Sophie literally made me do this.
Sophie: It's a very useful tool for communication because it helps you know for yourself and for others what actions, or words, or choices make you feel taken care of. A lot of times in relationships with your family, or with your friends, or with a significant other, it will be like, "Oh, I'm giving you a gift. Doesn't that make you feel loved?" Then, the other person's like, "I don't give a shit about gifts. I just want you to take out the trash." Being able to express like, "Hey, my love language is verbal affirmations. It means a lot to me when you say verbally 'I think you're attractive." Because while you can't make your boyfriend say anything, all you can do is be like, "Hey, this would make me feel loved and cared about. What makes you feel loved and cared about?" That's not pathetic, that's communication. Healthy communication is a necessary part of any healthy relationship.
April: Totally, and I think another important thing to note here is that for Hannah and for a lot of people listening at home, it's okay that you don't love your body today. This is a journey. We are not here to shame anyone who's not "on our level" because, what level? I have moments all the time where I'm like, "Girl, you look like Ruben Studdard," constantly. Like, truly.
Sophie: What? April.
April: That's one of my things is that I feel like my voice and my body both look like Ruben Studdard, like it's annoying.
Sophie: I've never thought that, just so you know.
April: Now you're going to think that. Sorry, 2004. But, I think, again, just like The Bachelorette, this is a journey. It's not a destination and you have to give yourself a little grace. It's okay that you know that you struggle with this and you shouldn't beat yourself up for not loving your body because, again, shame and pushing yourself are not She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 19 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com the ways to actually achieve happiness with the way that you look. It's just about really paying attention to what Sophie's saying; what you need, how you feel loved, and what can you give yourself validation-wise before you start looking to that from other people?
Sophie: Here's another thing though, too, I still struggle with this with my boyfriend. We've been together for four and a half years and I'm still always trying to navigate how to communicate that I want more verbal affirmations. For me, that's my number one love language. I just want to be told I'm loved and attractive all the time, but it's hard to communicate those needs. That's a whole separate communication. It's like a hard thing in relationships. I would say some of the following things might be helpful for you as mantras. I don't know if you like mantras. I love mantras. They're very helpful with my anxiety to say them to myself. Number one, no one's forcing your boyfriend to be with you. He is choosing to be with you. Number two, if he's choosing to be your boyfriend it's because he finds you attractive. Nobody is someone's boyfriend while they're like, "Uh, she's not attractive to me, but I guess I'll be here." He would just be your friends.
April: Totally.
Sophie: Yeah, you're not forcing him to do anything. You're not tricking him into anything. He's sees you every single day, more than you see yourself if you're not looking in the mirror every second. He likes your body because he's with you. If you can just try to remember that. That's also for me a helpful thing when I get into those insecure spirals. You can also just ask him. You can do it in a confident way. There are ways that you can kind of lead him to the water. For my boyfriend, something that I've learned how to do is to be like, "Hey, do you like my outfit? Hey, don't you think I look sexy in this? Hey, don't you think I look pretty?" Because it's so easy for them to be like, "Uh huh, yeah. Oh, I'm supposed to say yeah."
April: Totally. It's not that they're not thinking it, it's just that they don't know that they need to say it out loud.
Sophie: Yeah.
April: You've just got to remind them.
Sophie: Just saying your need, instead of saying, "I want you to say X," which it think can feel, not that it's needy, but I think it can feel restrictive or bossy's the wrong word, but just like you're putting something on him. I think it's totally cool and sexy to be like, "I think I look great today. Don't you?" Even if you don't feel like you look great, it's leading him to say it and guys love that.
April: Totally.
Sophie: I do, again, want to tell you the end of your question, what if he just confirms all my fears and crushes my self esteem anymore? I really don't think he's going to do that. He
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 20 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com wouldn't be with you if he were going to do that. If does do that, then he's not worth it. Goodbye.
April: Something I tell my friends all the time, this is a fundamental difference socially, men don't do things they don't want to do.
Sophie: Yes.
April: He'll be out if he does not want to be there.
Sophie: Yeah. I mean ...
April: Don't worry about it.
Sophie: Again, you're fine. You're great. There's a couple aspects of this for you to work on and think about. We want to hear how it goes. Write us back and tell us if any of this was helpful. I want you to know that you're not alone. I also struggled with all these things and I'm telling you all these solutions that I found worked for me. They may not work for you, but I think a lot of women, especially fat women, feel this way and worry about these same things. Self love and communication are universal things that everyone needs to work on. We think you're great, Hannah.
April: Thank you so much for writing this and, Hannah, we hope this was helpful.
Sophie: Yeah, so all the resources we mentioned in this week's Ask a Fatty will be in our episode notes and I'll put some more personal stories in the Patreon post. Thank you so much for that letter, Hannah. We're sending you all of our love and support. Tell us how it goes and if we can support you in any way further.
Sophie: Now, let's move on to, It's Okay, You Can Ask. A segment where we ask each other questions relating to our particular experiences in this world that we might not feel comfortable asking anyone else IRL.
April: We'll find out the answers to our burning questions like, why can't white people stay on the beat?
Sophie: Or, what is Lawry's season salt? If you're wondering, yes, I am aware that this is a trap.
April: I'm literally so excited.
Sophie: Okay, so April, number one, I would just like to note ...
April: This is ridiculous.
Sophie: I would just like to note that at the party we did a live recording of It's Okay, You Can Ask, and several black women came up to me after and told me how brave I was for doing this. She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 21 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com April: They're traitors. I don't speak for them. We're not kin. I'm not interested in hearing about Sophie's brave for being called out for not seasoning her food.
Sophie: I'm just saying, thank you so much, but also just like, they were like ... I think it's because I said it's the most stressful part of my week and they were like, "She's choosing to do this so ..." Which is true. This was your idea. I just want to always say that.
April: Sophie, just ask the question.
Sophie: Okay.
April: I can't do this.
Sophie: Okay, so I've seen this happen a lot and it's in movies and stuff, too, but I've seen it in real life where ... This is hard to convey over audio. But, black women, especially when they're faced with what you would call "white nonsense" or somebody just wasting their time, you can see a particular mode they go into that I've never seen a white woman do where their eyes just glaze and they're just like, "Uh huh. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Uh huh." Is this like a known thing?
April: Are you seriously asking this right now?
Sophie: Yes. Is this a bad question? Is this like talked about as a thing? I just feel like I've seen it mostly in like customer service situations where someone's like, "Blah, blah, blah, let me speak to the manager," and whoever they're talking to, if they're a black woman is just like, "mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative)." Do you know what I'm saying?
April: All that is is survival, okay? You have no idea how much white nonsense I encounter on a daily basis. It truly is about rationing out my emotional capacity. I could lose it right now or I could just leave the planet for a moment and just let you continue to talk about how your curtain is the wrong block and I can just elevate myself to a new plane. Do you know what I mean? It really is just about ...
Sophie: But, is this a thing that's talked about? Do you know what I mean?
April: I do know what you mean? Okay, so is this something that is talked about? No, it literally isn't. It's just something that we all have in common is that we need ways to survive. You know what I mean?
Sophie: Yeah, I guess ... I mean, I've definitely done it ... a similar version of it when talking to men. I've done the like, "Uh huh," zone out thing.
April: Yeah, you just do the Charlie ... What's it called with the cartoon?
Sophie: What?
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 22 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com April: Charlie
Sophie: Oh, the Charlie Brown teacher thing?
April: Yeah, totally.
Sophie: Is that like ... Is that racist that I've noticed it specifically with black women doing it very clearly?
April: I mean, I think you're right in that it's a reaction to white nonsense. That's all I can say about that.
Sophie: Alright. I don't know how to be more specific about it. I just have noticed it so many times of just like a complete and total shut down.
April: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Sophie: And not hiding it at all.
April: I mean, I think that's honestly the best outcome you could ask for. You get the shut down or you get laid into.
Sophie: I've never seen that, actually.
April: Really?
Sophie: Yeah. I've never seen ... Well, because I'm telling you most the times I've seen this have been customer service interactions. I've never seen someone, a black woman, working somewhere, start shouting at a white person customer.
April: I mean, I have, but those are extreme cases.
Sophie: Really? Like, when? What did you do?
April: I didn't do anything. I mean, listen, I spend more time at Walmarts than you do. That's just the reality.
Sophie: Sure. I was really brave for asking that question.
April: She was not. Please don't tell Sophie that she's brave. I will block you so fast.
Sophie: Great. That was It's Okay, You Can Ask.
Sophie: That's our show. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to the stuff we mentioned today and don't forget to send us your questions via email or voice recording to [email protected].
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 23 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com April: Please make sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcast. It's super important in making sure that people find the show. If you leave us a review on Apple Podcast, we'll give you a shout out on the show next week,
Sophie: She's All Fat is created, produced, and hosted by us, Sophie Carter-Kahn and April K. Quioh. We are an independent production. If you'd like to support the work we do, you can join our Patreon, by visiting patreon.com/shesallfatpod. When you pledge to be a supporter, you'll get all sorts of goodies and extra content. This week, we're posting more information, resources, and readings about politicized hair just for our Patreon supporters.
April: Our music is composed and produced by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our website was designed by Jessee Fish and our logo is by Britt Scott. This episode was mixed and edited by Victor D. Jackson. Our Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter handles are @shesallfatpod.
Sophie: Bye.
April: Bye.
April: I know about lizards.
Sophie: I don't know what you know about animals or not.
April: I know a lot about lizards, okay?
Sophie: Do you? You know a lot about lizards?
April: I know that a lizard is not a frog. That's the end.
PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:50:19]
She's All Fat A Body Positive Podcast - Episode ... (Completed 09/11/18) Page 24 of 24 Transcript by Rev.com