Wednesday Volume 686 16 December 2020 No. 153

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 16 December 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 253 16 DECEMBER 2020 254

football. They are keen to embrace the changes that will House of Commons come, but they want the certainty that their Government will support them come what may. Will the Secretary of Wednesday 16 December 2020 State confirm that he is working closely with all Cabinet colleagues to ensure that my sheep farmers are front and centre of the UK Government’s mind when transition The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock ends?

PRAYERS Simon Hart: Not only my hon. Friend’s sheep farmers but sheep farmers in constituencies across the House can feel confident that the Government are on their [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] side. One way we can demonstrate that is the fact that Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, we have guaranteed the £337 million of funding across 4 June). the lifetime of this Parliament. People said we would not do it, but we have done it, and we are committed to [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] ensuring that there is a healthy future for the farming industry, particularly livestock in Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions Mr Speaker: With the first of two questions, Liz Saville Roberts. Happy birthday!

Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Diolch WALES yn fawr, Lefarydd. It was interesting to hear the reference made to Welsh fishing previously, but I am sure the The Secretary of State was asked— Secretary of State is aware that 90% of the Welsh fleet is made up of small boats, under 10 metres in length, Fishing which catch shellfish and non-quota fish species such as bass. Between the prospect of no-deal tariffs to their Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): markets in Europe and the covid closure of hospitality, What steps his Department is taking to support the fishermen such as those in Porthdinllaen near where I Welsh fishing sector. [910244] live see no Brexit bonanza on the horizon. As Nelson might have put it, “Wales expects that every Secretary The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): Our of State for Wales will do his duty.” Can the Secretary commitment to this country’s fishing industry is absolute, of State explain how his Government’s vainglorious and we have defended it resolutely in our negotiations Trafalgar posturing with warships in the channel helps with the European Union. We promised fishermen in our small fishing vessels? Wales, Cornwall and across the United Kingdom that we would take back control of our waters, and that is Simon Hart: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for precisely what will happen. her comments. I was rather hopeful that leaving the common fisheries policy and regaining our status as an Mrs Murray [V]: Welsh fishermen have said to me independent nation state might be something that would how important it is that we take back control of our appeal to a separatist, but sadly that does not appear waters and do not give away access in any trade deal to be the case. I can answer her question, perhaps, by with the EU. Does my right hon. Friend back them in referring her to the inclusion in the spending review of that goal? £2 million-worth of support for fisheries in Wales in 2021-22 and for the lifetime of this Parliament. We share Simon Hart: I agree with my hon. Friend. The fishing a common theme, in the sense that I too have those industry made its views absolutely clear back in 2016, as fishing interests off the coast of west Wales and I am did 55% of the Welsh nation. UK sovereignty over very conscious of the problems she raises. That is why fishing in UK waters is not up for discussion. we are determined to ensure that they are properly looked after. Transition Period: Business Liz Saville Roberts: I am sure the Secretary of State is Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): What aware that there is a consultation going on about how to steps his Department is taking to help Welsh businesses allocate fishing quotas in the future. If that is done on prepare for the end of the transition period. [910245] historical grounds for Wales, it will be very bad news indeed for our fishermen. Turning to the Prime Minister’s The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): The latest U-turn on the United Kingdom Internal Market Wales Office is engaged with businesses the length and Bill, it will give a modicum of flexibility to the devolved breadth of Wales, with a simple message: “Make sure nations, but it is undeniable that the Bill is a disaster, you are prepared for the end of the transition period, weakening devolved power and centralising more power whether or not we reach a negotiated outcome with here in Westminster. The Conservatives and Labour have the EU.” been working together this week to let efforts to give our devolved Governments a say in state aid fail. Will Fay Jones: When I was speaking to sheep farmers in the Secretary of State commit to a productive U-turn Builth Wells in my constituency at the weekend, they this time, and assure me that no other powers will be made it clear that they do not want to be a political reserved through the internal market Bill? 255 Oral Answers 16 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 256

Simon Hart: The fact that the Government have that there would not be a referendum, but there was. listened carefully to the arguments should not be deemed They said that the leave camp would lose the referendum, some kind of act of evil or a U-turn. It shows that we but it did not. Then they said there would not be a are conscious of the complexities of this legislation and withdrawal agreement, but there was. They said that the have listened carefully to the arguments. Where the Conservatives would not win the election, but they did. right hon. Lady makes a mistake is in thinking that the Now he is saying there will not be a deal; I think we contents of the UK Internal Market Bill are somehow a should wait and see. threat to devolution. Actually, they are a means by which we can encourage inward investment into Wales Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab) [V]: I have and encourage jobs and livelihoods. We have had this been speaking to businesses across Cardiff North, and exchange across the House before, and it strikes me as they are doing all they can to protect against the impact worrying that she always refers to power—it is all about of a no deal, but they are deeply worried about supply power to Cardiff, rather than jobs and livelihoods in chain delays, stockpiling and a tariff cliff edge. They are Wales. For a party that argues it is the party of Wales, it saying that they can put the sandbags down, but that’s seems to be remarkably out of touch with the people it. So will the Secretary of State apologise to the many of Wales. people in Cardiff North and across the whole country whose jobs and livelihoods he is willing to gamble and Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): One of play politics with, and tell me whether his Government the findings of our Select Committee report last week on are preparing to fail or failing to prepare? this issue was that the Government have really stepped up their communication with Welsh businesses ahead of Simon Hart: After all, it was the hon. Lady’s party the end of the transition period, which is very welcome. that voted against a deal last year, so when she had the The new money that the Government have announced opportunity to land this more carefully, she chose not forWelshports,includingFishguardinmyownconstituency, to and therefore increased the risk of getting the outcome is very welcome too, but will my right hon. Friend say a that she definitely does not want. Attempting to pillory bitmoreaboutwhatheisdoingwiththeWelshGovernment the Government when actually there has been considerable to ensure that the inland checking facilities that will be daily joint working between the Welsh Government, under required ahead of the full implementation of new border the control of her own party, and the UK Government checks will be in place,given the very challenging timetables over many months to ensure that the risks are minimised, that he is working to? is not just an insult to the House but an insult to her own colleagues in Cardiff who have been devoting a huge Simon Hart: My right hon. Friend raises an interesting amount of time to try to make this work as seamlessly as point. Of course, the devolution settlement poses its possible. own complexities. With Holyhead, we have a Welsh Government-UK Government-HMRC relationship that Shared Prosperity Fund needs to be managed as we progress towards the end of the transition period, but Fishguard and Pembroke on Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) the coast of west Wales, in the areas we represent, are (SNP): With reference to the spending review 2020, entirely in the gift of the Welsh Government. However, what discussions he has had with the Welsh Government we have tried to ensure that we work almost on a daily on the UK shared prosperity fund. [910246] basis with the Welsh Government to ensure that those delivery timetables and objectives are in place. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies): My right hon. Friend the Secretary Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab) of State has been in regular discussions with Welsh [V]: The Government’s failure to get the Brexit deal that Ministers about the UK shared prosperity fund before they promised means we still have no clue about the and after the announcement of the spending review. terms on which businesses will be trading from January, Further engagement will take place as further details of and we face the very real prospect of a no-deal exit, the fund are announced. risking chaos at our ports and shortages of critical goods. As the CBI and others have said all year,businesses Gavin Newlands: I thank the Minister for that response. cannot be expected to prepare for a no deal Brexit in It has been suggested in the other place that the management the middle of a pandemic, so what is the Secretary of of the UK shared prosperity fund will involve advisers State’s message to those Welsh businesses that now face jointly appointed by the UK and devolved Governments, a Brexit cliff edge in just a few days’ time? yet the past few months have shown that this Government do not see themselves as an equal partner to the devolved Simon Hart: I have been working closely with the nations and that they are instead wrongly centralising hon. Gentleman’s colleagues in Cardiff, hosting joint power to Westminster at the expense of devolution. webinars and seminars.Weare also engaging with businesses What guarantees can he give to the devolved nations across Wales in limitless number of ways, and the that they will have a cast-iron equal say on the governance message I am getting from them is not the same as the of the UK shared prosperity fund? This is particularly message that he has just delivered to the House. They pertinent, given the shocking contempt shown by the are, by and large, prepared. They are certainly aware of Government in trying to railroad through the United the challenges, but also of the opportunities that this Kingdom Internal Market Bill. process throws up for them. I would also make the point that, right from the start of this, the hon. Gentleman’s David T. C. Davies: The Prime Minister is showing his party was saying that there would not be a manifesto commitment to the importance of powers for the Scottish commitment about a referendum, but there was, and and Welsh Governments at this very moment in Brussels, 257 Oral Answers 16 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 258 where he is standing up against those bureaucrats who The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales are trying to take powers away from the Welsh Government (David T. C. Davies): The Government are steadfast in and the Scottish Government. It is this Conservative their support for Welsh agriculture, and that is why we party and this Government who are standing up for the have provided the same level of funding for Welsh devolved settlement, and of course the UK Government farmers in 2021-22 as they received in 2019: £337 million will be looking forward to working in partnership with a year.That meets our manifesto commitment to guarantee the devolved Administrations around the United Kingdom the annual budget for farmers, a commitment that applies to ensure that the shared prosperity fund is properly spent. for the whole of this Parliament.

Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): As well as providing no Edward Timpson: We all want to see farmers in Wales certainty on the trading arrangements in just three and right across the United Kingdom prosper outside weeks’ time, the Government have also ducked and the European Union, but how can my hon. Friend ensure dived on questions about the funding that Wales will that farmers in my Eddisbury constituency will be able receive in future years. Despite the Tory promise that to compete with Welsh farmers just over the border who Wales will not lose a single penny, the actual figures tell will continue to receive their area payments in the early a different story. Wales alone was due some £350 million years of the agricultural transition, whereas all English of new money for projects next year, but the Treasury is farmers will see their basic payment scheme payments providing only £220 million for the whole UK. With Wales of £230 per hectare halved by 2024? losing not just pennies but millions of pounds, how can the Government say they have kept their promise? David T.C. Davies: As a Government who are committed David T. C. Davies: The Government have kept their to the devolved settlement, we obviously will not be promise, because, of course, some of the funding that telling devolved Governments what they can do with goes to Wales will still be coming from the European the money; we will simply make sure the money is there. Union after we have left the transition period. If we Of course, the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill take the total amount of money that is going to be has been brought forward to make absolutely certain spent, we will find it is the same. The Government have that we do not see a situation where one part of the met their commitment to ensure that the same level of United Kingdom is able to compete in an unfair fashion funding is spent in Wales,and we will meet our commitment with another part of the United Kingdom, and that is to ensure that the money is better spent and not wasted, why I hope all Members will support that Bill. as the Wales Audit Office recently reported on agricultural spending, and is used to level up communities across the John Lamont: My constituency in the Scottish borders whole of Wales. is the second-highest recipient of common agricultural policy payments in the United Kingdom. Indeed, four Nia Griffith: I am not sure whether that is a conclusive of the top five recipients are in the devolved Administrations. answer, but we are now nearly four and a half years on How will the Government support the devolved from the referendum and the Government still cannot Administrations with these payments in the future? provide clear answers on funding, so let me ask the Minister about the criteria on which the funding will David T. C. Davies: I am sure that my hon. Friend’s be allocated. As he knows, the Welsh Government and constituents,like farmers across the whole United Kingdom, local councils have agreed a framework for regional are pleased that the British Government will not implement investment in Wales,so can he confirm that his Government the 10% cut to agricultural payments, which is being will support that framework and not ride roughshod over brought about by the European Union. He will be pleased devolved agreements or make up the spending criteria that we have used the most generous exchange rate possible as they go along? to calculate what those payments will be. If he lived in Wales, he would be pleased to know that the UK David T. C. Davies: We are certainly not going to Government are providing £1.3 billion of additional make it up as we go along. Of course, the UK Government funding to the Welsh Government, and we look forward have been heavily involved in regional partnerships to seeing how much of that will be used on agriculture. through the growth deals, which have been working very successfully in Wales as a result of funding from the Pub Closures: Covid-19 UK Government. We have already demonstrated our commitment to working in partnership not just with the Welsh Government but with local authorities, because Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): we are absolutely determined that the money that replaces What discussions he has had with Welsh Government European funding is not wasted, as it has been previously, Ministers on the effect of the covid-19 outbreak on pub but is spent on the most needy communities in Wales. closures in Wales. [910248]

Agriculture The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies): My right hon. Friend the Secretary Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con): What steps his of State wrote to the First Minister before he announced Department is taking to support the Welsh agricultural the closure of pubs in Wales and asked him to consider sector. [910247] a tiered structure for covid restrictions, which would have better targeted areas with a high incidence of the John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) virus. Regrettably, at that time the First Minister chose (Con): What steps his Department is taking to support not to do so. I believe he may now be about to follow my the Welsh agricultural sector. [910256] right hon. Friend’s advice. 259 Oral Answers 16 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 260

Tim Loughton: Before the Welsh Labour Government Simon Hart: My hon. Friend makes a very interesting had the bright idea of bringing in a circuit breaker, the point, particularly at a time when the Welsh Government infection rate in Wales was 33 per 100,000 head of are sitting on over £1 billion of unallocated Barnett population. Since then, Wales has had one of the toughest funding, and so many businesses and institutions in lockdowns. Pubs have to close at six o’clock and they Wales are crying out for support. As the Under-Secretary cannot serve alcohol. Infection rates in Wales are now of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for 423 per 100,000. Have Welsh Government Ministers Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) said, we respect the confided in my hon. Friend the reasons for this raging devolution settlement and it is right that we should. success, and is it perhaps that people in Wales have been However,if people are concerned, they have an opportunity so driven to drink with despair that they have to do it at to change this one-party state at the Senedd elections home without social distancing, rather than in pubs? next May.

David T. C. Davies: It is a sad fact that at the moment Manufacturing Wales has the highest number of cases per 100,000 in the UK, the highest number of deaths per 100,000, and the lowest amount of testing, but I do not think my Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): What steps right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I wish to the Government are taking to support the manufacturing make any political point out of that. All of the United industry in Wales. [910250] Kingdom has suffered. What I think we would welcome is a recognition that the Welsh Labour Government do The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): The nothavesomesortof magicalanswertothissituationwhich House needs only to look at the £30 million loan we has eluded everybody else. We would welcome Welsh secured for Celsa to see our commitment to Welsh Ministers sitting down and working with the Secretary manufacturing industry.We also provided over £2 billion of StateforHealthandSocialCareandtheUKGovernment, in direct support to businesses in Wales, and our 10-point so we can tackle this pandemic together as one nation. planforagreenindustrialrevolutionwillmobilise£12billion of Government investment to stimulate manufacturing Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): As we have across the whole of the UK. heard, pubs in north Wales have been closed down by the Welsh Government and their trade is being destroyed, Geraint Davies [V]: The delays in the Brexit deal, despite the fact that infection rates in north Wales are alongside the pandemic, have meant that the Welsh steel significantly less than in much of south Wales. When industry has been hit hard, Airbus has lost 1,400 jobs, my hon. Friend does speak to Welsh Ministers, can he Grenadier cars will be produced in France instead of urge them to adopt a more intelligent and nuanced Wales, and even Brains brewery is up for sale. Will the approach to covid restrictions? Otherwise, many of those Secretary of State now press the Chancellor for a sector- pubs will never reopen. specific manufacturing strategy, in the knowledge that only UK Governments can borrow in the long term at David T. C. Davies: As I have just said to my hon. low interest rates to secure long-term pre-pandemic Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham production levels after the vaccine is deployed and after (Tim Loughton), we would welcome the Welsh Government the deal is agreed? working in tandem with the UK Government to bring in a tiered system, so that in areas with a low incidence Simon Hart: The Chancellor’s contributions to the of the virus fewer restrictions are put in place. I believe companies that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, as well that is an approach the Welsh Government are finally as to Celsa, which I mentioned in my answer, have been going to adopt. We look forward to sitting down and second to none. We have had a very good, robust and working with them. thorough exchange with all the businesses to which the hon. Gentleman referred. I could not agree with him Financial Support: Covid-19 more that part of the covid recovery programme is there to ensure not only that we get through the next few months David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) but that there are sustainable futures for all those industries, (Con): What assessment his Department has made of particularly steel. I hope the hon. Gentleman recognises the adequacy of fiscal support available to the Welsh the fact that we were quick off the blocks to rescue Government in response to the covid-19 outbreak. Celsa—and 600 to 800 jobs—in that process right at the [910249] beginning of the pandemic. That shows beyond reasonable doubt that we are absolutely committed to a steelmaking The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): The footprint in Wales. Government have provided a record amount of support to the Welsh Government, including a funding guarantee Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The Shotton of an additional £5 billion this financial year. The Welsh steel plant produces some of the finest quality steel products Government will also receive an additional £1.3 billion in the world. The Prime Minister has said that UK steel next year, including £770 million to tackle covid-19. producers will be “at the front of the queue”—[Official Report, 24 June 2020; David Simmonds: What further pressure can the Secretary Vol. 677, c. 1311.] of State bring to bear on Cardiff Bay to ensure that the when it comes to future infrastructure projects, so will funding going to the Welsh Government as a consequence the Government now set targets on procurement? We of the Barnett consequentials formula finds its way to need action rather than words—all we tend to get from frontline services and is not absorbed in the bureaucratic this Government are warm words. Please, do not just costs of the Lib-Lab Government in Cardiff Bay? blame Europe; can we have a proper answer? 261 Oral Answers 16 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 262

Simon Hart: I am not going to blame Europe—or Shared Prosperity Fund anybody else, for that matter. I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. We have been making big strides as RuthJones(NewportWest)(Lab):Whatrecentdiscussions far as procurement is concerned and, of course, after the he has had with the First Minister of Wales on the UK end of the transition those strides will be even bigger—that shared prosperity fund. [910252] does not constitute blame, of course. We have regular conversations in Government, including with the Welsh Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What recent Government, about making sure that procurement not discussions he has had with the First Minister of Wales only offers value for money for taxpayers but taps into on the UK shared prosperity fund. [910254] the wonderful supply chain that we have in the UK, of which he gave a very good example. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales The Union (David T. C. Davies): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has regular discussions with the First Minister Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): What steps his and Welsh Ministers on a range of issues, including the Department is taking to strengthen the Union. [910251] UK shared prosperity fund.

Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): What steps Ruth Jones: Nadolig llawen i chi, Mr Speaker. he is taking to help ensure that people in Wales benefit We have heard a lot from the Minister about the from the Union. [910257] shared prosperity fund this morning, but I am still none The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): The the wiser on the details. What guarantees can the Minister Government are unwavering in their commitment to provide that the long-awaited shared prosperity fund the Union as a social and economic partnership. Its will provide no reduction in moneys received by the strength is demonstrated by the economic support we Welsh Government compared with current structural have provided to Welsh business during the covid-19 funding? What guarantees can the Minister provide that outbreak and by the city and growth deals that help to it will be the Welsh Government who decide how the level up communities across the UK. money is allocated in Wales? Suzanne Webb: Does my right hon. Friend agree that DavidT.C.Davies:Wehavealreadymadethecommitment one of the strengths of our Union—our great and united that the amount of money will match everything that Union—is that we can support and help each other in came from Europe. Previously, the European Union times of crisis? What support are the UK Government held the strings and controlled how the money was giving to the Welsh Government to help them to fight spent; now, it will be the UK Government working in the pandemic, now that Wales has the second-highest partnershipwithlocalauthoritiesandtheWelshGovernment death rate per 100,000 in Europe? to ensure that the money is spent wisely.

Simon Hart: My hon. Friend touches on a current Kevin Brennan [V]: The Minister says that the money and important point: the Union is not a competition; it will be matched, but when the dealing is done, will the is a partnership. I sometimes think it gets portrayed as so-called shared prosperity fund in fact turn out to be a the former, whereas we all know that it is the latter. The pared back austerity fund for Wales, in keeping with UK Government have been able to introduce numerous normal Conservative practice? Merry Christmas. financial interventions to assist the Welsh Government in fighting this dreadful pandemic. The most recent is David T. C. Davies: The shared prosperity fund will yesterday’s joint letter from the Secretary of State for mean more money going into Wales, along with more Health and Social Care to the First Minister saying that powers, which will come about as a result of Brexit, where hospitals face real challenges and hardship in going to Wales. We are looking forward to putting our Wales, NHS England and the UK Government stand Conservative record before the people of Wales in the ready to offer whatever support we can and to put down elections next May. our political differences to make sure that we fight covid as a UK-wide challenge. Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab) [V]: If, like the Theresa Villiers: The scale of the response to covid in road to hell, this UK Government’s proposals regarding Wales in terms of economic support would never have the shared prosperity fund are littered with good intentions, been possible without the combined strength of our their actions, as with the United Kingdom Internal Market United Kingdom, so will my right hon. Friend emphasise Bill, show that they are most interested in accumulating that that strength will help us to ensure that Wales power to themselves. Please can the Minister explain when recovers alongside the rest of the United Kingdom as, exactly we will learn what the mechanism will be for hopefully, we move on from covid next year? involving the Welsh Government in deciding which people, communities and local businesses will receive the necessary Simon Hart: My right hon. Friend is right. All the funding to enable them to level up, who will be the final businesses in Wales that we have spoken to during the arbiter, how much money will be available and when the covid crisis have pointed out that they do not recognise process will begin? political boundaries: they are fiercely Welsh and very patriotic, but they recognise that the economic regions David T.C. Davies: Wehave already said that discussions stretch into the far corners of the UK and well beyond. are ongoing, that the money will be matched, and that My right hon. Friend is absolutely right that we do make the shared prosperity fund will deliver our levelling-up that commitment. Whether or not we are Unionists in agenda across Wales. The Labour party spent a long the original sense, we are very much on the same page. time saying that there would not be any money and that 263 Oral Answers 16 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 264 there would not be any interest in Wales, but the reality takes place asymptomatically in so many cases: one in is that we have shown that the money will be there and three people are currently asymptomatic with covid. we want to make sure that it is used properly. Those That is why my hon. Friend is absolutely right that we sorts of arguments might raise a few cheers at Labour should exercise extreme caution in the way we celebrate party conferences, but the people of Wales will be Christmas. We can celebrate it sensibly but we have to pleased to know that that money is going to come and be extremely cautious in the way we behave. that that interest in levelling up the whole of Wales will follow. Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): May I join the Prime Minister in his good wishes to all the staff, the armed forces and our emergency services, and thank you, Mr Speaker, and the House authorities for PRIME MINISTER doing all that you have done this year to keep Parliament safe, and open, in challenging circumstances? The Prime Minister was asked— Since this is—probably—the last PMQs of the year, I want to look at some of the decisions that the Prime Engagements Minister has made in the last 12 months. Let me start at the beginning of the pandemic, when images from [910384] Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): If he will hospitals in Italy and Spain were being shown on our list his official engagements for Wednesday 16 December. televisions and the infection rates were rising in the UK. Does the Prime Minister now accept that his slowness The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): Yesterday, I made to respond led to more deaths, a longer lockdown, and a written ministerial statement updating the House on deeper economic damage? the latest position on the leak investigation, as you requested, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister: No, because at every stage we I am sure the whole House will want to join me in followed the scientific guidance, and continue to do so. wishing all Members and staff a merry Christmas and a The right hon. and learned Gentleman is right to draw happy new year. Members from across the House will attention to what is happening across the whole of also want to join me in sending our warmest wishes to Europe, and indeed there are spikes now taking place all our armed forces, both in the United Kingdom and across the whole of the EU. Thanks to the tiering system those who are stationed overseas. Members will also, that we have in place in large parts of the country, and I hope, want to join me in sending our very best wishes thanks to the heroic efforts of the people of the north-west, to all members of the emergency services, health and the north-east and Yorkshire and the Humber, we are care workers, and those who will be working over seeing those rates coming down. Yes, it is true that we Christmas. have spikes now in some parts of London and the This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues south-east, but we will make sure, with our adjustments and others. In addition to my duties in this House, to the tiering that we conduct over the next weeks, that I shall have further such meetings later today. we will address those issues. That is the right way forward for this country, and that is how we will defeat the Michael Fabricant [V]: May I join the Prime Minister virus—with vaccines, with community testing and with in those good wishes for Christmas and add my own tough tiering. I think that what people would like to good wishes to you, Mr Speaker, and to the Prime hear in this season of good will to all men is a little bit of Minister and hope that you both have a peaceful and support from the right hon. and learned Gentleman for safe Christmas period? what the Government are trying to do to beat coronavirus, Look, on the subject of Christmas, my constituents and perhaps just a little less carping. in Lichfield and Burntwood and those in the rest of the country have had a torrid year with the covid pandemic, Keir Starmer: If the Prime Minister will not listen to and we have this very small break over Christmas. People me, let me quote his own spending watchdog, the Office must use common sense, of course: do not start hugging for Budget Responsibility. It said that the UK locked granny; do not go wild over Christmas; and, as my right down later and for longer than some of its European hon. Friend the Prime Minister previously said, let us be neighbours and experienced a deeper fall and slower jolly careful over Christmas. I want to say to my Prime economic recovery. This is not bad luck. It is not Minister that it would not be helpful if some smarmy inevitable. It is the result of the Prime Minister’s choices. lawyer, or somebody now at this late stage, were to argue But if the Prime Minister disagrees, perhaps he can tell for a change in the laws. May I ask my right hon. Friend, us why Britain, the sixth-richest country in the world, here and now, who is neither smarmy nor a lawyer— with all our brilliant scientists and amazing NHS, ends the year with one of the highest numbers of covid deaths Mr Speaker: We’ve got the message! in Europe—over 64,000, each one leaving a grieving family—and the deepest recession of any major economy. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Why does he think that has happened? right. He is right in many ways, but right to stress the importance of people taking care this Christmas, because The Prime Minister: The House will have noted the although some things are unquestionably going well—I slight change of tune in the right hon. and learned am very pleased to tell the House that we have had a Gentleman’s criticisms of the UK’s performance. But good start with the roll-out of the vaccination programme perhaps he could tell me why the UK is the first to and in just seven days 108,000 people in England and produce a viable treatment for coronavirus in the form 138,000 across the whole of the UK have received their of dexamethasone or the first country in the world to first vaccination—we must remember that transmission roll out a clinically tested stage 3 vaccine. This is a 265 Oral Answers 16 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 266 pandemic that has affected the whole of Europe, and Prime Minister and the Chancellor are telling the armed this Government have continued to take the tough forces, police officers, careworkers and firefighters that decisions necessary to beat it. If I may say so, without they will get a pay freeze, Dominic Cummings has been wishing to cast aspersions on the point of the view of handed at least a £40,000 pay rise. How on earth does the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I would take his the Prime Minister justify that? criticisms of the UK Government’s decisions a little more seriously, frankly, if he had been able to decide The Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned last week, or the week before, whether he even supported Gentleman totally trivialises the efforts of the British the approach we were taking or opposed it. He could not people in getting the virus down. He says that none of do either: he abstained. the lockdown measures have worked. That is absolutely untrue. From 5 November to 3 December, the people of Keir Starmer: I said two weeks ago at this Dispatch this country came together once again to get the virus Box that I was very concerned that tier 2 would not be under control, and they have made a huge amount of strong enough to hold the virus. The Prime Minister progress. We will continue with that tiering system, and said, “Don’t worry about that. Just support us. Throw we will get the virus down. That is the best way forward away the problems.” Two weeks later, what have we got? for this country. All he wants to do is to lock the whole The virus rising in tier 2 and tier 3, and I will come back country down—he is a one-club golfer; that is the only to that. If the Prime Minister thinks that the highest solution he has—and then, all he does is attack the death numbers and the deepest recession is somehow economic consequences of lockdowns. delivering for the British people, he is a long way removed from the truth. Keir Starmer: Mr Speaker, you could script that from The problem is that the Prime Minister makes the October and November, when the Prime Minister was same mistakes over and over again. Two weeks ago, he saying that a lockdown was the last thing the country unveiled the latest covid plan. He told the House, as he needed and would be disastrous. Two weeks later, he put has many times before, that his plan would suppress the it on the table and voted for it—ridiculous! This is exactly virus, but the latest figures show the opposite. The Prime the problem: not learning from mistakes. Obviously, we Minister talked about spikes here and there. Let me tell know that for Dominic Cummings, it was not performance- the House that in three out of four tier 2 areas, infections related pay. I think that the British people will find it are going up. In over half of the tier 3 areas, infections pretty hard to understand why it is one rule for our key are going up—exactly the concern that I put to the workers and another for his advisers. Prime Minister two weeks ago, when he said, “Just back It is now likely that the next big mistake will be over us anyway.” As a result, this morning 10 million people the easing of restrictions over Christmas—and it is not moved into tougher restrictions—exactly what we said smarmy lawyers saying this. Let me tell the House what would happen: areas going up the tiers. Does the Prime the British Medical Journal has said. The British Medical Minister not recognise that his latest plan has once Journal said yesterday: again failed to control the virus and protect the NHS “we believe the government is about to blunder into another and our economy? major error that will cost many lives.” The Prime Minister: Once again, the right hon. and The Prime Minister should listen to that advice, not just learned Gentleman criticises the Government’s plans ignore it as usual. If he really is going to press ahead without producing any kind of plan of his own, except I with this, can he tell us what assessment has been done seem to remember that he was the mastermind author of the impact that it will have on infection rates and of the Labour firebreak in Wales. If we look at what is increased pressure on the NHS? What is the impact? happening across the country, it is thanks to the efforts of the British people that we are seeing significant The Prime Minister: I wish the right hon. and learned reductions in the virus in some of the areas where it was Gentleman had had the guts just to say what he really really surging. That is because of the hard work of the wants to do, which is to cancel the plans people have people of this country. We will, of course, continue to made and cancel Christmas. That is really, I think, what reflect that as we go forward with the tiering approach, he is driving at. He is looking a bit blank; I think that and we will continue to roll out the vaccine and community is what he is driving at. But I can tell him that, as of testing. I think that his time would be better employed today—just this morning—there is actually, as I say, supporting those wonderful initiatives, supporting unanimous agreement across the UK Government and community testing, encouraging people to get a test and across all the devolved Administrations, including members encouraging people to get a vaccine, rather than continually of all parties, including his own, that we should proceed, attacking what the NHS and the Government are trying in principle, with the existing regulations, because we do to do. not want to criminalise people’s long-made plans. We do think it is absolutely vital that people should at this Keir Starmer: I have encouraged everybody to have very, very tricky time exercise a high degree of personal the vaccine every time I have stood up and talked about responsibility, especially when they come into contact it. The Prime Minister is avoiding the issue. In some with elderly people, and avoid contact with elderly places, the infection rate has gone up 70% in the last people wherever possible. That is how, by being sensible seven days. Everybody knows that this is a problem. and cautious, not by imposing endless lockdowns or The Prime Minister is yet again pretending that it is not. cancelling Christmas, as he would appear to want to Another major mistake of the last 12 months was do—that is the only implication I can draw from what losing public trust. We all know what the tipping point he has said, unless he wants to announce some other was: the 520-mile round trip to Barnard Castle and the idea—we will continue to work together to keep this humiliating way in which the Prime Minister and his virus under control, to defeat it and take the country Cabinet chose to defend it. Now we learn that, while the forward. 267 Oral Answers 16 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 268

Keir Starmer: Here we go again: ignoring the medical everything they possibly could to take us straight back advice, and we know where that leads, because we have into the lunar pull of the European Union, which is the seen what happened in the last nine months. Whatever true ambition of the right hon. and learned Member for the Prime Minister says, there is no escaping the brutal Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer). facts that Britain has one of the highest numbers of covid deaths in Europe and the worst economic damage. Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): May This is the last PMQs of the year, and I for one often I wish you, Mr Speaker, and all colleagues, staff, essential wonder where the Prime Minister gets his advice from. workers, health workers, and everyone in these nations Well, now I know, because I have here the official all the best for Christmas? I hope everyone does their newsletter of the Wellingborough Conservative party. It best to keep everybody safe. is not on everyone’s Christmas reading list, but it is a In the past few hours, the President of the European fascinating read, because it gives a lot of advice to wannabe Commission has said that the next few days are going to politicians. It says this: be “decisive” in the Brexit negotiations. With just two “say the first thing that comes into your head… It’ll probably be weeks to go, it is a disgrace that businesses and people nonsense… You may get a bad headline… but… If you make have been left with that crippling uncertainty, and the enough dubious claims, fast enough”, real threat of food and medicine shortages come the you can get away with it. The December edition, includes new year. One year ago, at the general election, Scotland the advice: rejected this Prime Minister. It rejected this Tory “Sometimes, it is better to give the WRONG answer at the Government, and it rejected their extreme Brexit. People RIGHT time, than the RIGHT answer at the WRONG time.” in Scotland now need to know the price they will be So my final question to the Prime Minister is this: is he forced to pay. Ahead of any vote in Parliament, will the the inspiration for the newsletter, or is he the author? Prime Minister commit to releasing a detailed economic impact assessment of the cost to the UK of his extreme The Prime Minister: I think what the people of this Tory Brexit plans? country would love to hear from the right hon. and learned Gentleman in this season of good will is any ThePrimeMinister:Notwithstandingtheslightuncharacteristic kind of point of view at all on some of the key issues. air of gloom from the right hon. Gentleman, there is This week, he could not make up his mind whether it every opportunity—and hope I have—that our friends was right for kids to be in school or not, and havering and partners across the channel will see sense and do a completely. He could not make up his mind last week deal. All that takes is for them to understand that the whether or not to support what the Government were UK has a natural right, like every other country, to want doing to fight covid, and told his troops, heroically, to to be able to control its own laws and its own fishing grounds abstain. He could not make up his mind about Brexit, —I would have thought that would be important to the we all seem to remember. We do not know whether he right hon. Gentleman. Whatever happens in the next will vote for a deal or not. He cannot attack the Government few days, I know that this country will prosper mightily if he cannot come up with a view of his own. In the on the terms that we agree with our European friends, words of the song, “All I want for Christmas is” a view, and whatever those terms may be—whether they are and it would be wonderful if he could produce one. Australian or Canadian—he can go forward with a high This Government are getting on with delivering on heart and confidence into 2021, knowing that there are the people’s priorities, with 20,000 more police, 50,000 great opportunities for Scotland and the rest of the UK. more nurses, 48 new hospitals and—although it has been Ian Blackford: I am not quite sure what that was, very tough and very difficult, and everybody appreciates Mr Speaker, but it certainly wasn’t an answer to the the suffering and hardship that the people of this country question. I am not surprised, because the Prime Minister have been going through—by rolling out the vaccine, by did not want to answer the question. He knows that the community testing and by tough tiering, which I hope United Kingdom is poorer and worse off as a result of the right hon. and learned Gentleman supports, we are the extreme Tory Brexit, and the costs continue to soar. going to defeat coronavirus and we are going to take The Warwick study estimates that Scotland has already this country forward into a great 2021. lost £4 billion as a result of Brexit, and Bloomberg [910386] Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): At the beginning Economics estimates that the UK will have lost £200 billion of this year, the Prime Minister delivered the historic by the end of this year. Scottish Government analysis British people’s votes for Brexit. Regardless of the estimates that every person in Scotland will, on average, outcome of the current talks with the EU, does he agree be worse off to the tune of £1,600. with me that this great outward-looking nation has a Scotland has been completely ignored by Westminster world of global opportunities ahead of it? throughout the Brexit process, and we are now being kept in the dark over the devastating price that we will The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend, who has be forced to pay. People in Scotland are not willing to campaigned nobly in that cause. As he knows, already suffer the consequences of this economic vandalism, we have not only set up a points-based immigration and 16 consecutive polls have shown a majority for system, taking back control of our borders, but we will independence—that is little wonder, Mr Speaker. Is it ensure that—and we have already done many free trade not as clear as day that the only way left to protect deals—we will use the economic advantages of Brexit, Scotland’sinterests and our place in Europe is for Scotland coming out of the European Union, to do free ports, to to become an independent country? make this country the most attractive place for investment for business and for enterprise around the world and, The Prime Minister: Again, despite the gloom that above all, to resist the depredations of the socialists the right hon. Gentleman seeks to spread about Scotland opposite, who would destroy that opportunity and do and the rest of the UK, the UK currently has the highest 269 Oral Answers 16 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 270 youth employment in the G7—I could perhaps have In February, the Prime Minister promised that it would made that point to the right hon. and learned Member be built in full. Yesterday’s National Infrastructure for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer)—and lower Commission review reduces the eastern leg to a small unemployment than France, Italy, Spain, the United line between Birmingham and the disliked station at States and Canada. There is a threat to the Scottish East Midlands Parkway. That will not deliver the economy, sadly, and that is the high tax regime and connectivity or the economic uplift that the midlands mismanagement of the Scottish nationalist party. That and the north need. Will the Prime Minister reaffirm is the problem that Scotland faces, and I hope that the his previous commitment and reject the NIC’s plan, or people of Scotland can see it. is this yet another broken promise to our community?

[910387] Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): The Prime Minister: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman As my right hon. Friend knows, the tourism and hospitality is quite wrong. What the NIC is saying is that there are sector in constituencies across the country,but particularly other things we can do as well, including massively in Derbyshire Dales, has been severely affected by the improving the midland main line—I think everybody pandemic and the national restrictions. That includes would want to do that—but the ambition to do the places such as the Flying Childers Inn in Stanton in the eastern leg, as I have said in the House before, remains Peak. What support and hope can the Government give absolutely unchanged. that sector in the weeks and months ahead? [910390] Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for Like schools and teachers across the country, those in everything she does to campaign for Derbyshire Dales South Cambridgeshire have been working miracles to and for hospitality.It has been a terrible time for hospitality. continue providing education throughout the pandemic. We all share the anguish of those who work in the They are grateful for the support they have had from the hospitality sector. That is why we have cut VAT overall, Government, they welcome the new exams regime and as she knows, from 20% to 5% in those sectors until the they also very much welcome the new testing regime for end of March, and we are going to develop, with her coronavirus. But schools in Cambridgeshire started with help, a tourism recovery plan to help people come to see some of the lowest funding of any in the country, and the beauties of the Derbyshire Dales in particular. many have been left with deficits that they cannot fill. Will my right hon. Friend work with me to make sure that schools in Cambridgeshire get the resources they Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP): Last week, the need?WillthePrimeMinisterbeSantaforCambridgeshire’s Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said that Northern schoolkids? Ireland would have the “best of both worlds” as a result of the talks with the European Union. For that to be Mr Speaker: Father Christmas? true, we need access to both UK and EU trade deals. Will the Prime Minister confirm whether he is pushing The Prime Minister: Mr Speaker, the whole of the for that in those talks? country and the taxpayers of this country play that role; it is our job to make sure that we spend the money The Prime Minister: Of course, as the agreement with sensibly, and that is what we were doing. I am delighted our friends has already made clear, the whole of the that, thanks in part to the campaigning by my hon. Friend, UK, including Northern Ireland, will participate fully his constituency is attracting an average of 3.8% more in all trade deals that the UK does, and Northern per pupil next year compared with this year through the Ireland will continue to have unfettered access to the national funding formula—a total of £4.8 million more, whole of the UK market. in addition, of course, to our commitment to pay every teacher a starting salary of £30,000. [910389] Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con): At the recent spending review, over £14 billion was allocated [910388] Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): The hospitality for research and development. That was excellent news, sector, and in particular pubs in my constituency such as but there is a concern that charity-funded medical research, the Black Bull in Blaydon, a wet pub with a fine live which has been hit hard by the pandemic, will still be localmusictradition,hasbeendevastatedbytherestrictions left behind. Will my right hon. Friend intervene to placed on it, in our case since September. Pubs such as ensure that some of that funding is used to set up a life the Black Bull are at the heart of our communities. The sciences charity partnership fund to boost medical research, various compensation schemes do not offer enough protect thousands of skilled jobs and promote the UK’s support to allow those pubs to survive. Will the Prime position as a science superpower? Minister commit to bringing forward a financial support scheme that will allow our pubs and hospitality sector to The Prime Minister: Yes indeed. I know that my hon. survive? Friend, as a doctor, knows the vital importance of medical research and pure science. That is why this The Prime Minister: The hon. Member is quite right Government are investing record sums in science R&D— to raise the problem in the hospitality sector. We are £14.6 billion in 2021-22. That is going to support all the committed to doing everything we can. She knows life sciences sectors. If anybody wants evidence of why about the £3,000 grant, the additional £2,100, plus the it is so vital to support those sectors, they have only to £1,000 for wet pubs. But the best thing of all—in look at the events of the last few months. addition to the cuts in business rates and VAT that I have already mentioned—is for areas in the west midlands [910385] Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): to work together— HS2, in full, will transform the east midlands and the north, reversing a 40-year trend of losing skilled work. Liz Twist: North-east. 271 Oral Answers 16 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 272

The Prime Minister: Sorry; forgive me. The best thing [910393] Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): is for areas in the north-east to work together to reduce Mr Speaker, may I wish you and everyone in Parliament the virus through community testing in the way that a merry Christmas, and thank you for keeping us in our Liverpool has succeeded in doing. I appreciate that the place? I extend those best wishes to the Prime Minister hon. Member’s constituency is in in tier 3 and things are as well; it has been a tumultuous 12 months, but he has very, very tough, but if we all work together, we can get shown great resolve and determination in leading our the virus down and get our pubs open again. nation through it. Transition Period: Business This has been a wretched year due to covid, but the vaccination offers us a ray of hope in 2021. Does the [910392] Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): What steps Prime Minister agree that all those called upon to take the Government have taken to help ensure that businesses the vaccine will not only be protecting their own health, are prepared for the end of the transition period. but doing their civic duty in helping the health of others, keeping people in jobs and getting us back to The Prime Minister: We are confident that the UK our cherished way of life? will prosper, whether on a Canada-style arrangement or Australia-style terms. The Prime Minister: It is great to hear my hon. Friend, because he speaks such good sense on this matter; Joy Morrissey: In the light of the new opportunities I hope that he is heard up and down the land. It is that the end of the transition period will bring, is the absolutely vital that people who are offered the vaccine Prime Minister aware of the ambitious economic growth do take steps to get it immediately.They will be protecting proposition developed in Buckinghamshire? Will he themselves and they will be protecting everyone else. back this bold bid for Bucks to ensure that Buckinghamshire continues to increase its contribution to the Exchequer: [910394] Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and a win for the businesses of Bucks and a win for the Sunderland West) (Lab) [V]: Highly skilled engineers levelling-up agenda? at Centrica’s British Gas in my constituency were told ThePrimeMinister:Yes,indeed.IknowthatBuckinghamshire last week that they had to sign new contracts before Council is working closely with my hon. Friend and Christmas, or else they would be fired and rehired in the partners across the voluntary sector. We have been in new year on worse terms. Fire and rehire is an exploitative initialdiscussionswithBuckinghamshireaboutitsproposals and illegitimate negotiation tactic, and causes real hurt and are happy to taken them forward. and anger. Will the Prime Minister join me in calling on Centricatowithdrawitsthreatandreturntothenegotiation Engagements table with workers and their union, the GMB, and will he work with Labour and the trade unions to introduce [910391] Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP) [V]: Prime legislation to ban fire and rehire as soon as possible? Minister, were you as dismayed as I was by the number of drug-related deaths reported in Scotland yesterday? The Prime Minister: It is very important that all If you were, then you can do something about it. Not just businesses treat their employees with fairness and respect. in Scotland, but across the United Kingdom, obstacles In that sense, I utterly share the point of view of the exist to the creation of drug consumption rooms, and hon. Lady, but it is also vital that we have a flexible those obstacles can be removed— economy that is able to generate jobs, particularly when we are going to go through a very difficult and bumpy Mr Speaker: Order. I am not responsible; the hon. time. We have had a proud record of keeping employment Member keeps saying “you”, and honestly, I do not want high and unemployment low in this country, and we want to be responsible for any of this. to continue with that approach. Ronnie Cowan: My apologies, Mr Speaker. I am obviously addressing my question to the Prime Minister. [910396] Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con): Despite the There are obstacles that exist across the United Kingdom challenges presented by the pandemic, working with the to the creation of drug consumption rooms, and those council and local enterprise partnership Kirklees College obstacles can be removed at Westminster. Previously has managed to open its new campus at the Pioneer the UK Government have held an ideological view that House in the centre of Dewsbury. Not only will the drug consumption rooms encourage drug taking. Will influx of students give a much-needed boost to the town the Prime Minister engage with me and allow me the centre, but it will open up skills and apprenticeships to opportunity to help him do a good thing? young people throughout my constituency. Would my right hon. Friend agree to accompany me on a visit to The Prime Minister: I listened very carefully to the look round this iconic building, and to view the amazing hon. Gentleman. I must say that we do not want to do sculpture loaned by renowned artist Antony Gormley, anything that would encourage the consumption of as soon as my right hon. Friend’sschedule, and restrictions, more drugs, nor do we want to decriminalise the possession allow? of drugs, because I believe that they ruin lives and drive criminality across the whole United Kingdom. I am The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend. I will do more than happy to look at the proposals made by the what I can to fit in his very kind invitation to inspect hon. Gentleman one more time, and to pursue the agenda this sculpture. I admire Mr Gormley’s work greatly, by of tackling drugs, but the vast panoply of powers that the way. I am delighted that Kirklees College has opened are needed to tackle drugs and drugs crime are already the Pioneer Higher Skills Centre, providing high level vested with the devolved Administration in Scotland, education and skills training for the people of Dewsbury. and I am afraid that the failures that he talks about are I thank my hon. Friend for what he is doing to campaign very largely down to them. for that. 273 Oral Answers 16 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 274

[910395] John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP) [V]: The Prime [910398] Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/ Minister promised to fund 4,000 zero-emission buses by Co-op): My constituent Charlotte, a single parent, has 2024, but the spending review delivers just 800 such twice this term had to stop work due to her five-year-old buses. Why has he put the handbrake on when it comes son’s class self-isolating. She has been told that, because to supporting the bus building sector? With COP26 less it is her son who is self-isolating, she is ineligible for the than a year away, does he agree that it is time to put the £500 support payment. The Library has confirmed that pedal to the floor, get the low and zero-emission bus parents may need to use annual or unpaid leave in such production lines in Falkirk, Yorkshire and Ballymena circumstances. Is it not wrong to exclude parents on the full, and support the bus building sector in full, as he lowest income from support to look after their children, promised? and will the Prime Minister urgently look again at that? Wales and Scotland have done it, so why will he not now The Prime Minister: I can confidently say that I do support parents in England? not believe that there is another Member of this House who has built as many buses, or caused as many buses The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is of course right to be built, as I have. We are absolutely committed to to draw attention to the hardship of parents who have rolling out, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, 4,000 zero- had to cope with kids coming home from school because emission buses and the country’s first all electric bus of self-isolation rules. One of the things that we are town. He is right to lobby for the wonderful Alexander trying to do now is roll out lateral flow testing on a Dennis buses that are built in in Falkirk. We will certainly grand scale for schools, so that we reduce the size of the champion them, as well as buses built in Ballymena and bubbles that have to self-isolate. We are doing whatever elsewhere. He can take it from me that, in a zero-carbon we can to support families throughout the crisis, as she way, we are putting the pedal to the floor until we get knows, with big uprates in universal credit and all to 4,000. manner of support that we are providing, in addition to [910397] Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con): Will free childcare for 30 hours a week. the Prime Minister join me in congratulating Kevin The best answer for this crisis is to keep our kids in Sinfield and Leeds Rhinos rugby league club on raising school, to test them and to roll out that programme of over£2.5millionfortheMotorNeuroneDiseaseAssociation mass community testing, which I am sure the hon. Lady by running seven marathons in seven days in honour of supports in her neighbourhood, in order to drive the Rob Burrow, who is living with motor neurone disease? virus down, allow the vaccine time really to kick in, and Will the Government commit to increasing their investment protect our elderly and vulnerable so that we can all in MND research and marching on together to find a move forward together as a society. That is what this cure? Government are aiming for, but in the meantime I fully appreciate the problem that she has raised, and we will Mr Speaker: Hear, hear, Prime Minister! do our very best to address it. The Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker—I share your enthusiasm for what Kevin Sinfield— Mr Speaker: Order. In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business, Mr Speaker: Sir Kev. and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I will now suspend the sitting for three minutes. The Prime Minister: For what Sir Kevin—thank you, Mr Speaker—and Leeds Rhinos have done. MND is indeed a devastating condition. I congratulate Sir Kevin 12.41 pm on his actions, and the Government are certainly in full Sitting suspended. support. 275 16 DECEMBER 2020 Immigration Rules: Supported 276 Accommodation Immigration Rules: Supported Minister will seek to return, albeit with no mechanism Accommodation yet to do so. They will also be housed in camps, such as the one proposed in Test Valley, with no mains electricity or mains water. How does the Minister intend to issue 12.45 pm written guidance as to how these changes will be processed? Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) He has just 10 working days before they come into (Con) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State force. Will the permitted development powers that the for the Home Department if she will make a statement Minister intends to use to create several of these camps on whether the changes to the immigration rules laid be extended by statutory instrument, like these rules, last week will reduce the numbers of asylum seekers in avoiding parliamentary scrutiny? Does he think the supported accommodation. changes might in fact see an increase to the asylum application backlog? Does he have a strategic plan or The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home does he hope that housing people on sites where he Department (Chris Philp): This Government are taking admits he will not provide healthcare will just act as a action to fix the asylum system so that it is firm and deterrent? He acknowledges that, even without covid, fair—firm where the system is being abused, but fair to only a few thousand failed asylum seekers are returned those who need protection. And we have been clear: we each year, and in 10 working days he loses Dublin. will use every means at our disposal to make the use of I know he is working with the French to secure a small boats to cross the channel unviable. replacement, but what about Greece, Spain and Italy, and will those agreements be in place by 1 January? Last week we laid changes to the immigration rules that are vital to curb irregular migration, which is often The Home Office is already in court over its inhuman facilitated by ruthless criminal gangs. Channel crossings treatment of asylum seekers housed in barracks and it are not only highly dangerous but unnecessary, because has settled some claims, moving people into more France and other European countries are safe. Asylum appropriate accommodation. Is the Minister concerned should be claimed there. These changes will mean that he has laid these rules before the rest of those cases are individuals who could and should have claimed asylum heard, and just a matter of days after the Equality and previously in a safe country may not have their asylum Human Rights Commission stated that the Home Office claims determined in the UK where we are able to safely had return them. The changes also enable us to consider the “a culture where equality was not seen as important”? return of these individuals to any safe country besides Last year,Wendy Williams identified that the Home Office the safe country where they could have claimed asylum. needed to examine the development of policies to make Individuals will also not be able to make asylum claims sure that the person was put at the heart of its services. at sea. How do these rules fit with that? At the end of the transition period, the UK is no The Minister has talked of legal routes, but he has longer bound by the Dublin regulation. These new committed to resettle only 232 people—the final step in measures will enable us, by agreement, to replace Dublin delivering the pledge to resettle 20,000 Syrians, of which with more flexible returns arrangements. This will have we were all proud. When will he finally launch the a deterrent effect, by sending a clear message to anyone programme to resettle 5,000 refugees this year, which was thinking of coming to the UK dangerously from a safe announced in 2019? country that they should not risk their lives by doing so. The Minister plans to put people in camps with no This deterrent effect will also destroy the business model mains water at a time when we know hygiene is critical. of the ruthless criminal gangs. If it were not for you having granted this urgent question Such returns would, of course, reduce numbers in today, Mr Speaker, he would not even have come to the accommodation. I want to be clear that we are not House to explain himself. turning our back on those who need our help after fleeing persecution, oppression or tyranny. We stand by our obligations under the 1951 refugee convention, the Chris Philp: On the first question, about the asylum European convention on human rights and other relevant track, after somebody arrives—having come, we believe, treaties. We will continue to welcome people to the UK from a safe country where they could have claimed through safe and legal routes, assisting the most vulnerable, asylum—and if they are declared inadmissible, we will providing accommodation and meeting essential living seek for a short period to get the agreement of that other needs. country to return them there, where their asylum claim can be substantively and properly considered. If that is As I have set out, we are taking a number of steps to not possible,the asylum claim will of course be substantively tackle irregular, dangerous migration. But addressing and properly considered in this country. the problem really requires a complete overhaul, and in the first half of next year we will bring forward a Bill to My right hon. Friend asked some questions about fix the immigration and asylum system once and for all. our asylum system more generally—I think she was in This country will be fair to those who need protection, some way seeking to insinuate that it was not reasonable but firm where the system is being abused. or fair. The accommodation that we provide is reasonable and good, and there are 60,000 people currently being Caroline Nokes: Coming into force on 1 January, the accommodated. Home Office’s proposed changes to the asylum system In terms of our system more widely, last year we made have far-reaching implications. Intended to act as a 20,000 grants of asylum or other forms of protection—that deterrent to people traffickers, which of course is laudable, is a very high number. We welcomed and received more they instead create a separate tier of asylum seekers, unaccompanied asylum-seeking children last year than who will not have their claims considered and who the any other European country, including Greece. Over the 277 Immigration Rules: Supported 16 DECEMBER 2020 Immigration Rules: Supported 278 Accommodation Accommodation last five years, our resettlement schemes have seen 25,000 confirmed, these changes will allow someone to be removed people taken directly from conflict zones and resettled to any safe third country, including countries that the in the United Kingdom—more than any other European person has never been to and has no connection with. country. After the 232 remaining people have come How does he envisage that that could possibly work in over, we will continue with resettlement, as far as we are practice? able to, given the context of coronavirus and everything The changes before us come into effect in less than a else. I therefore think we have a proud record of helping month’s time. The Minister must realise the widespread people who are genuinely in need. concern about leaving some incredibly vulnerable people My right hon. Friend asked about safe and legal routes. in limbo, at risk of homelessness and destitution. In addition to what I have described, last year over 6,000 people came into the UK under the refugee family Chris Philp: Let me reassure the shadow Minister on reunion routes, which of course continue to exist. one or two points. She concluded her questions by asking The purpose of these changes is to prepare us for life about the risk of destitution. To be clear, if somebody after Dublin, and it is quite right that we make preparations, who is in the inadmissible cohort is unable to make but at the heart of this is a desire to dissuade people— provision for their own accommodation or upkeep, they indeed, prevent people—from making unnecessary and will be eligible for accommodation in the normal way, dangerous journeys,particularly across the English channel, just as people currently in the Dublin third country endangering their own lives and feeding ruthless criminal cohort, awaiting return to a European country, are people smugglers, and all for no purpose, because France accommodated and supported. There will be no risk of is a safe country where asylum can easily be claimed, as destitution, which would of course infringe their article 3 are the other European countries these migrants have rights were it ever to happen. travelled through. The hon. Lady asks about the status of people who My right hon. Friend asked about future agreements. may fall into that cohort. Clearly, the intention is that a She referenced France, and we are of course in close period of time will pass when we seek the agreement of dialogue with France—we have a very close and friendly a third country to return them. That will happen within relationship. We will also be entering into discussions a reasonable time—we will set that out in guidance, but with other countries, including some of the ones she it will be a matter of a few months; it will not be a long mentioned, as soon as the current European-level time. If, after that reasonable time, no agreement is negotiations are concluded. These rules lay the foundations forthcoming, their asylum claim will be substantively for those future discussions and negotiations, but most considered here. There will not be any extended period of all they will deter dangerous and unnecessary journeys, of limbo, which I do not think would be in anybody’s and I hope the House will join me in supporting that interests. objective. The hon. Lady refers to the fact that these arrangements are in some regards similar in concept to Dublin. I hope Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab): I thank the right hon. the House will take from that that they are reasonable in Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline spirit, because no one has objected to the principles that Nokes) for securing this urgent question and for the underpin the Dublin regulations—indeed, many people incredibly important points she made, not least in relation have pointed to them as exemplars. to asylum accommodation. Finally, the message all of us in this House should be As we have heard, these changes will allow a claim to sending out, the Opposition Front Bench included, is be found inadmissible if someone has had the opportunity that if somebody is in continental Europe and they feel to claim asylum in another safe third country prior to they have a protection claim that needs to be heard, claiming asylum in the UK. That is not dissimilar to the they should not attempt a dangerous crossing of the current arrangements under the Dublin III regulations English channel. They should not pay money to ruthless that we have in place with our European neighbours, people smugglers.They should use the very well-functioning but which will cease at the end of this month. We are asylum systems in our very civilised European neighbours. leaving the Dublin III regulations, so this change allows Let that message go out from this House today; it will the Government to deem a claim inadmissible without save life. any co-operation or agreement in place to facilitate returning the person concerned to a third country. This John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Many people in is an unworkable half-plan, being introduced by the the country share the views the Minister has just expressed; back door as changes to the immigration rules, with no they are appalled by the dangerous and illegal trade in opportunity for proper parliamentary scrutiny. people across the channel, both in dangerous boat On Monday, the Minister outlined that it is this voyages and in trucks and cargo containers. He has Government’s intention to open discussions with those every support from millions of people to do something. countries as soon as we are able to do so. Can he confirm Will he also ensure in the new law that comes in that, that those talks are yet to start and that there will be no while there is the opportunity for appeal, there are such arrangements in place by 1 January, when these not repetitive, constant and frivolous appeals, delaying changes come into effect? Will he clarify what a person’s the judgment and wasting the time and resource of the rights will therefore be in the period between their claim Home Office? being found inadmissible and a returns agreement being reached? Chris Philp: I thank my right hon. Friend for his The changes also suggest that an asylum claim can be comments. As he says, I think these proposals and this reinstated after a reasonable period of time, if another approach will command widespread public support. safe country is unable to admit that person. How long is The public do not understand why people should cross “a reasonable period”? Further still, as the Minister has the English channel in dangerous circumstances, facilitated 279 Immigration Rules: Supported 16 DECEMBER 2020 Immigration Rules: Supported 280 Accommodation Accommodation [Chris Philp] France and, indeed, in other countries through which this cohort typically pass prior to their arrival in France. by criminals, when they could perfectly easily claim asylum That deals with the questions that he raised. in France or somewhere else, which is of course what The hon. Gentleman mentioned the very sad deaths they should do. Characteristically, he makes an extremely in accommodation, every single one of which is, of pertinent and prescient point about the legal process, course, a tragedy. I remind him that we have 60,000 which the new Bill next year will most certainly address. people in asylum accommodation. While each individual At the moment, it is possible to bring a series of claims case is very sad, if he studies the statistics he will see over a period of time—repetitively, sometimes vexatiously that the numbers are not out of line with what we would and sometimes even in contradiction with one another— expect among a population of 60,000 people. with the express purpose in mind of preventing, frustrating or delaying the proper application of our immigration Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Sooner or rules. We will be legislating to prevent that kind of later, there is going to be an appalling tragedy in the abuse of the legal process, and I look forward to working channel. The reason economic migrants make this crossing with him on making that law a reality. is that they know that our present asylum laws are a complete joke. If someone makes it halfway across the Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and channel, their chances of ever being deported are virtually Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) [V]: I thank the right hon. nil, because of the activities of so-called human rights Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline lawyers, who are actually putting lives at risk by their Nokes) for securing this urgent question. It seems to me shenanigans in the law courts. What we want from the that this is not about fixing the asylum system; rather, it Minister is a firm commitment that, from 1 January, if is about blocking access to it, leaving people in limbo someone crosses the channel and it is obvious that they and undermining the refugee convention in doing so. are coming from a safe country, they will be immediately The Minister has focused on the channel, but putting returned—that is what we want to know. aside those crossing the channel, can he be clear on what percentage of asylum applicants the Department thinks is likely to be impacted by these inadmissibility Chris Philp: I thank my right hon. Friend, who has a rules and left in limbo? Can he be clearer on what distinguished legal background, for his question. He is statutory support and accommodation will be available absolutely right: we need to deter these crossings, and to those who are put in that limbo situation? If this is we need to ensure that our legal process works effectively. really about replacing Dublin, surely we must wait to As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham see what replacement agreements are concluded and (John Redwood) said, very often it does not do so. Despite what safeguards are in place before being asked to look that, we are able to return and deport quite large numbers at these changes. of people if they should not be in the country or if they have committed very serious criminal offences, as we Finally, if the Government are serious about fixing discussed a couple of weeks ago. the asylum system, will they start by addressing yesterday’s news of 29 deaths in asylum accommodation this year In relation to the question about immediate returns alone? Can we have a clear Government commitment from 1 January, that is the policy objective of the and published policy to record and investigate such Government—it is my objective, the Home Secretary’s deaths, to support the bereaved and to learn lessons so objective and, indeed, the Prime Minister’s objective. as to prevent further tragedies? Surely creating a legal But in order to effect returns, we need the agreement of limbo of several months will only make things worse, the receiving country, and so my top priority, as soon as not better. the European-level negotiations are concluded, is to seek exactly those kind of return agreements. Chris Philp: First, as I have said, the people in this cohort will not be in limbo, because after a reasonable Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) period, if no return to another country is possible, the (Lab): The Government are about to end the only asylum claim will be substantively considered here. The agreement that they have in a place for safe returns by possibility of limbo that the hon. Gentleman referred to ending the Dublin agreement, which will make it harder, does not exist, as I have said twice already. not easier, for the Minister to complete safe returns. He told the Home Affairs Committee that there are Secondly, the hon. Gentleman raised the question of currently no negotiations for a replacement—they have destitution. As I said in response to the hon. Member not even started—and we are only 15 days away. Will for Halifax (Holly Lynch), the people in this cohort the Minister confirm what I think he just said—that will be eligible for accommodation and support, so the asylum accommodation and support will still be available risk of destitution, which would be in contravention of for everyone who is in this limbo for the next few months? article 3, does not exist either. Does that mean that with no return agreement in place The hon. Gentleman asked about people crossing the and the existing support systems continuing, he is actually channel and referenced the refugee convention. He will adding several months to the waiting times for asylum know that article 31 of the refugee convention talks about claims to be sorted out? If he had an agreement, he people could just use the existing rules. “coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened” Chris Philp: On the Select Committee Chair’s question being immune to various forms of penalty. He will about accommodation and support, I can confirm that know that France is a safe country where people’s life it will be available, as I have said already, because not to and freedom are not threatened. Human rights are provide it would breach article 3. That support will be respected in France. Asylum claims can be processed in available and people will not fall into destitution. 281 Immigration Rules: Supported 16 DECEMBER 2020 Immigration Rules: Supported 282 Accommodation Accommodation On the negotiations, back in May—I believe it was left homeless and that none will be left without food? 19 May—we tabled an EU proposal on these matters, Sadly, in all our cities one comes across people who are but if that is not agreed to in the course of the current making apparently legitimate claims for asylum but are discussions, we will seek bilateral agreements with various left in a position of destitution and forced to rely on the countries. As I said to the right hon. Lady’s Committee faith community merely to survive. Does the Minister a week or two ago, individual member states have been not think that we can do a bit better than that in the asked by the Commission not to engage in such discussions fifth richest country in the world? while the European negotiations are ongoing, so we will commence those as soon as we are able to. Even in the Chris Philp: I have already given the assurance about absence of those discussions, it is possible to raise returns destitution to the shadow Minister and to the Chair of cases on a case-by-case basis with member states, which, the Select Committee. The right hon. Gentleman will of course, we can do from 1 January. Critically, the new know that the asylum system in general does provide provisions prepare the way—they lay the foundations—for support, accommodation and other support, the cost of agreements that we may reach in future, besides facilitating which is getting on for £1 billion a year, so it is generous case-by-case action. in nature. He talks about the refugee problem around Finally,althoughcurrentlyinforce,theDublinregulations the world, which we recognise. That is one reason why have not been terribly effective. The right hon. Lady will we spend a great deal of money on overseas aid. Even know that the numbers we successfully return under after the recent adjustment, that will still be many, many Dublin are really rather small, numbering in the low billions of pounds, probably in the region of £10 billion, hundreds per year. I am confident that, through active which is more than almost every other country in the negotiation, not only can we replace Dublin but we can world, so we are doing our bit that way. improve on it. We are also doing our bit through the resettlement scheme, which I talked about earlier. It is the largest Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): I thank resettlement scheme of any European country—25,000 the Minister for everything he is doing to tackle illegal people over the past five years. Of course I accept that migration into this country.As he knows, in Stoke-on-Trent the people who choose to make their home in this country we have resettled the largest number of refugees in the can, and very often do, make a significant contribution, region, which has put significant pressure on local which we welcome. That is why the Under-Secretary of services. Will my hon. Friend look at what more can be State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the done to ensure that local services are not overwhelmed, Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster), set up the points-based and put more pressure on local authorities in other immigration system with the Home Secretary, which parts of the country that are not contributing fairly to went active very recently. It is essential that people the rehousing of refugees? either claiming asylum or entering the country for work and other purposes do so legally, and all Members of Chris Philp: I thank my hon. Friend and Stoke-on-Trent this House, including the former Leader of the Opposition, for their work to welcome genuine refugees, including should be very clear with migrants in Europe that they as part of the resettlement programme. He raises a good should not attempt this dangerous crossing and they should point, because some parts of the country decline to take not pay dangerous people smugglers. If they need unaccompanied asylum-seeking children as part of the protection, they should claim it where they are in Europe. national transfer scheme, thereby putting enormous pressure on gateway authorities such as Kent, Portsmouth, Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): My Dudley Croydon and Hillingdon; and many other authorities, North constituents and I really want to place on record despite proclaiming themselves to be cities or even our gratitude to the Home Secretary and her team for nations of sanctuary, often do not give consent for the huge efforts that they are putting into fixing our dispersed accommodation for asylum seekers. I say to broken asylum system. Does the Minister agree that we any of those local authorities and to the devolved must get this legislation absolutely watertight to put a Administrations in Scotland and Wales: please help us stop to the fraudulent claims that are costing the hard- by accepting unaccompanied asylum-seeking children working taxpayers of this country very dearly? under the national transfer scheme, particularly from Kent, Portsmouth, Hillingdon and Croydon, and please Chris Philp: I very much agree with my hon. Friend. I give consent for dispersed accommodation, because it is am afraid that, as it stands, the legal system is, as my essential that we have that available to accommodate right hon. Friends the Members for Wokingham and people who are seeking asylum. for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) said, unfortunately routinely abused with repeated unmeritorious claims. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind) [V]: Does the We are determined to prevent that from happening. Of Minister recognise that this is a huge global issue; that course people will have a fair hearing, but we cannot there are almost 80 million refugees globally; that 85% of have our legal system abused. I am very much looking them have been taken in by the poorest countries in the forward to my hon. Friend’s assistance in making sure world, not the wealthiest; that all of them are human that this legislation is tightly drafted to ensure that there beings; and that those who have made their way to this are no loopholes. country, historically and in the current time, have made a massive contribution to our lives and our wellbeing? Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD) Can he say something positive about the contribution [V]: I too congratulate the right hon. Member for that refugees make to our society? Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) on In the light of the new regulations, can the Minister obtaining this very important urgent question. It is give us an assurance that no refugees will be destitute quite remarkable that, but for her efforts, there would while they are waiting for a decision, that none will be be no effective scrutiny of changes of this magnitude. 283 Immigration Rules: Supported 16 DECEMBER 2020 Immigration Rules: Supported 284 Accommodation Accommodation [Mr Alistair Carmichael] and careful way. We have had to use such emergency accommodation because during coronavirus the number May I take the Minister at his word when he speaks of people we are accommodating has gone up very about support for safe and legal routes and perhaps dramatically,from 48,000 to about 60,000, as the cessations invite him then to update the House on what work he is or move-ons we would ordinarily do have been substantially doing to build a replacement for the Dubs scheme to reduced. In the case of negative cessations, they are bring unaccompanied refugee children from Europe currently paused entirely across the whole United Kingdom. to the United Kingdom? So that is the reason why it is organised as it is. As I said earlier, if Members, and in particular local authorities Chris Philp: As I have already said, we have a very and devolved Administrations, want to see the use of effective resettlement scheme, which takes people directly hotels and places such as Penally reduced, supporting the from conflict zones. The resettlement schemes that we Home Office in procuring more dispersed accommodation have run over the past five years have principally focused, is the way to do that. for obvious reasons, on Syria. A total of 25,000 people have come in via those schemes over five years. The Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Dubs scheme focuses on unaccompanied asylum-seeking Co-op): On accommodation, Clearsprings Ready Homes, children in Europe. If we have to prioritise our scarce which I believe manages the Penally camp and has also resources, we should prioritise people, including children, managed accommodation in my constituency for many who are in dangerous places such as Syria, not people years, made multimillion-pound profits over the past who are in Italy, who are already in a safe European few years, paid one of its directors £147,000 last year—that country. Furthermore, in terms of UASCs in Europe, is more than Dominic Cummings—and took a £2 million this country had more UASC applications last year dividend in 2019. Yet we hear of squalid, degrading and than any other European country. The figure was about unsafe conditions at its properties. I have raised those 3,800 applications, which means that we are doing our issues over many years with Ministers and officials, but bit for UASCs in Europe, but it is right that we prioritise it has been awarded a generous new contract with the people in dangerous places, not people in countries such Home Office. Why was it awarded that contract? How is as Italy when it comes to direct resettlement. it value for money? What will the Minister do to bear down on those appalling conditions? Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): I welcome the immediate steps this Government have taken to overhaul Chris Philp: The contracts for the three service providers our broken asylum system. What steps is my hon. were awarded after a thorough process to evaluate the Friend taking in the longer term to fix the system once bids and they are, of course, subject to ongoing scrutiny and for all? on issues such as quality of accommodation, in the way that the hon. Gentleman describes. Generally speaking, Chris Philp: My hon. Friend is right: the measures in the accommodation provided is of good quality and it this set of rules are only a first step. The asylum and compares very favourably with accommodation provided immigration system has far more systematic and by some other countries. However, if he would like to fundamental problems that cause it, unfortunately, to write to me with any specific issues he wants to raise in be abused on many occasions.Weneed to have fundamental relation to particular units of accommodation in his legislative change and, as I said in oral questions just a constituency,I will of course make sure they are investigated. few days ago, we intend to legislate in the first half of next year to make sure that the legal system is tightened Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): I am aware that up, so that it cannot be abused and we have a system many asylum seekers are being housed in hotels in that is fair to those who need protection, but firm on central London. Will my hon. Friend reassure me that those trying to abuse it. we are looking to find a long-term solution?

Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I, Chris Philp: My hon. Friend is quite right that hotels too, would like to thank the right hon. Member for are being used in central London and, indeed, in other Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) for cities. That is a consequence of the very short-term securing the urgent question. The treatment of asylum pressures created by coronavirus. It is our intention, as seekers already in the care of the Home Office is immensely we go into next year and as the coronavirus pandemic significant and the Government’s shocking treatment of abates, to get hotel numbers back down again. For asylum seekers in Penally camp in Pembrokeshire contrasts financial and other reasons, it is not ideal to have to use with the heart-warming response of local groups who hotels and we would like to phase out their use as quickly support them as they arrive in the community. Winter is as we possibly can in the coming year. upon us and it remains unclear whether the camp was ever used by the Ministry of Defence during the winter Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab) [V]: On Christmas months in the past. The camp is located in a remote eve, the first asylum seekers are due to arrive at the rural location, raising questions of whether the Home remote site of Yarl’s Wood immigration removal centre, Office can provide duty of care services effectively. where they will be housed in prefab-style accommodation. Given those questions, will the Minister commit to set a We have seen a similar approach in Kent and Wales, date for an inspection of the camp by the independent where Army barracks are being used, and other sites are chief inspector of borders and immigration? planned. That is a lot of activity for what we are told is a temporary arrangement. Will the Minister explain Chris Philp: It is not for me to tell the chief inspector the new policy approach to housing asylum seekers how to conduct his inspections and his affairs, but I in hostile environments and tell me exactly when it would say that Penally has been set up in a thoughtful will end? 285 Immigration Rules: Supported 16 DECEMBER 2020 Immigration Rules: Supported 286 Accommodation Accommodation Chris Philp: It is not a hostile environment. The Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): I know that accommodation meets the required standards. As I both my hon. Friend and the Home Secretary are doing explained in my answer to my hon. Friend the Member everything in their power to stop the illegal crossings on for Kensington (Felicity Buchan), we are having to the south coast and the continuing abuse of our immigration provide additional units because the number of people and asylum system, but it is perfectly clear that we do being supported has gone up enormously as a result of need long-term reform. When can we expect the full coronavirus. Far fewer cessation notices have been served details of how the Government intend to reform our this year than would ordinarily be the case, because we currently broken system so that the UK is no longer a are mindful of the welfare of the people concerned and soft touch? the wider population. We do intend to scale up the cessations as quickly as we safely can. As we do that, the Chris Philp: I welcome my hon. Friend’s question. We pressure on numbers will reduce correspondingly. intend to introduce legislation in the first half of next year, but that will of course be consulted on, so that Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: I welcome everyone with an interest in the matter, including my my hon. Friend’s commitment to preventing the criminal hon. Friend and his constituents, can propose ideas and gangs from preying on the vulnerable people who make we can make sure the legislation has the desired effect. the dangerous crossings from France to the UK. One of the concerns that we all have is about how he will speed Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): During this transition up the decision-making process so that those who are period, the Dublin regulations have given the UK temporary entitled to asylum in this country can be speedily resettled, power to transfer refugees and migrants back to the EU and those who are not entitled to be here can be country from which they arrived. As the ever-shifting returned to a safe place as fast as possible. Will he deadline looms, I understand that the Home Office has advise the House on what action he will take in the new sped up its asylum seeker processing in an attempt to year to speed up the process so that decisions are made deport vulnerable immigrants, including suspected quickly? trafficking victims, before the year’s end. I have dealt with a lot of cases of trafficking victims in Ilford South. Chris Philp: My hon. Friend is right that speeding up I seek reassurance from the Minister that he will seriously the decision making is in everybody’s interests. It will consider putting proper screening in place so that anything mean that fewer people will need to be accommodated, that is unlawful and could end up creating serious harm it will be good for those people who get a positive can be stopped. Will he consider ending deportation decision, and for those who have a negative decision we until robust and proper screening is implemented? can proceed with removal. Clearly, the coronavirus pandemic has had a negative effect on decision making, Chris Philp: There is a robust screening process in but it is now being rapidly ramped up again. We intend place, via the single competent authority and the national to recruit more asylum decision makers in the new year, referral mechanism. That is working, I think it is fair to and we also intend to look at ways of deploying technology, say, extremely effectively, so the risks the hon. Member so better IT systems, to speed up processes and decision identifies do not currently exist. This is a matter that making. I recently visited Lunar House in Croydon, is frequently tested in the courts, so we will almost close to my constituency, where many of the teams who certainly not be stopping removals and deportations. make the decisions are based. The spirit of my hon. The Government are determined to apply the law,whether Friend’s question is absolutely right, and we certainly to people who have failed in their asylum claims or intend to act upon it. dangerous criminals who pose a threat to our constituents. I hope the Labour party and the hon. Gentleman will Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): This afternoon the join us in supporting the proper operation of our law and Minister has sought to assure Members that the changes protecting our constituents. to this regime will protect applicants from destitution, but the Joseph Rowntree Foundation estimates that the Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): I welcome the level of destitution in the UK, among UK citizens, is set steps the Government have taken to deter dangerous to double to 2 million families. Can he explain how he journeys that put human lives at risk. Does my hon. expects Members to accept that the Government will Friend agree that it is a long-standing principle that protect asylum seekers from destitution, when they cannot asylum seekers should claim asylum at the earliest protect 2 million UK nationals? opportunity, in the first safe country they reach? Will he also confirm that safe countries still include France, Chris Philp: We are protecting asylum seekers from Italy, Greece, and so on? destitution at the moment. I have already pointed out that we are spending in the region of £1 billion a year Chris Philp: My hon. Friend is right. European Union supporting the various cohorts of asylum seekers, and countries, including the ones she lists, are obviously the accommodation and cash allowances that they are manifestly safe and civilised countries. People who find provided with have been tested by the courts and found themselves in need of protection in those countries to be suitable, so there is very clear evidence that the should claim asylum there, as she says. They should not Government’s work in this area does the trick. The hon. attempt dangerous crossings of the English channel, Gentleman asked about wider issues, so I will just point facilitated by ruthless criminals, and every single Member out that measures such as elevating the minimum wage of this House should send the same message. and increasing the tax-free allowance have done huge amounts over the past five or six years to combat Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): These poverty and create prosperity. As the economy recovers major, fundamental changes to the immigration rules next year, after coronavirus, that will continue. were laid last week, incredibly, with zero consultation 287 Immigration Rules: Supported 16 DECEMBER 2020 Immigration Rules: Supported 288 Accommodation Accommodation [Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi] Chris Philp: The Government’s policy, as I have laid out, is to do everything we can to make sure that where with stakeholders such as local authorities and the people wishing to claim asylum are already in a safe, asylum sector. In the last two years the number of civilised country like France, Germany or Spain, they people waiting for longer than six months for a decision claim asylum there and do not attempt a dangerous has increased almost threefold, with nearly 40,000 people journey facilitated by ruthless criminals. That is the having to wait at least that long. Surely the changes risk right thing to do, and I would hope to have the hon. creating even greater inefficiency and delays, with people Lady’s support in doing it. having to wait to find out whether the UK will even consider their asylum claim? Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): The people of Ashfield and Eastwood are fed up with seeing illegal economic Chris Philp: The changes are designed to ensure that migrants leaving safe countries such as France to claim we can enter into agreements with other countries to asylum in the UK while filling the pockets of greedy replace Dublin. They are designed to ensure that people lawyers. I welcome the immediate steps the Government who unnecessarily come to the United Kingdom—often are taking to overhaul our broken asylum system, but clandestinely, often dangerously and often facilitated by the people of Ashfield and Eastwood want to know criminals—do not do so, because they could instead what steps my hon. Friend is taking in the longer term claim asylum somewhere safe, such as France or Germany. to fix this system once and for all. I hope the hon. Gentleman agrees with me that that is the right thing to do and what we should be encouraging people to do. Chris Philp: My hon. Friend is right in the sense that Onthetimingof asylumdecisionmaking,asImentioned the system does not work currently in the way that it in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow should. People are able to make repeated, unmeritorious East (Bob Blackman), we want to speed things up, but and sometimes vexatious claims to frustrate the system unfortunately coronavirus has impacted decision making, and prevent removal. For that reason, we will legislate as it has impacted so many elements of the public service in the first half of next year to make sure that the system. However,we are focused on making sure the system system is fundamentally fixed and fundamentally reformed speeds up, and that is a top priority for the coming year. in a way that will give his constituents the confidence they have every right to expect. Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): I thank the Minister and the Home Secretary for everything ChrisStephens(GlasgowSouthWest)(SNP):TheMinister they are doing in this area. Does the Minister agree that will be aware that Glasgow has housed and accommodated the attitude of many Opposition Members in objecting asylum seekers for almost 20 years—something of which to the deportation of convicted criminals, including we are very proud. Can he say a bit more about how murderers and rapists, harms the case of genuine refugees? those who may be considered to be inadmissible under Will he act to overhaul the rules, which see some lawyers the new rules will be supported and accommodated? abusing the system, to the detriment of taxpayers in Will they, for example, be placed in detention centres, North West Durham and across the country, and also camps, barracks and hotels—he will be aware that a genuine refugees? group of doctors has written to the Department with concerns about the conditions for asylum seekers in Chris Philp: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We these sorts of accommodation—or is he going to rule saw in our debate a couple of weeks ago some Opposition out those sorts of accommodation going forward? Members, astonishingly, standing up for the rights of people who have been convicted of extremely serious Chris Philp: Glasgow does accommodate a large number criminal offences, instead of standing up for the rights of asylum seekers. We work very closely with Glasgow of victims or the rights of our constituents to be protected City Council and the Communities and Local Government against the harm that those dangerous individuals represent. Secretary in the Scottish Government on that topic. He is also right when he points out that unmeritorious Glasgow is the only Scottish authority to receive asylum claims crowd out, or push further back in the queue, the seekers. It would ease the pressure on Glasgow, and claims of those who have every right to protection. That indeed across the United Kingdom, if other Scottish is why we are determined to legislate next year to ensure local authorities were able to accommodate asylum that those whose claims are genuine are treated quickly seekers as well. In terms of the type of accommodation and fairly, but that where people do not have a good provided, the inadmissible cohort, although inadmissible, claim and are abusing the system, the system is firm and will be entitled to accommodation, as I have said, and rejects those claims. the support that goes with that. We will make sure that Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab) the support they receive fully complies with all our legal [V]: As a city of sanctuary, Newcastle seeks to support and moral obligations. those fleeing war and persecution, but all too often the Home Office places them in accommodation that is Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): I unsuitable, inadequate or plain disgusting, and where thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Romsey they may be targeted by far-right groups, as happened and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) for asking recently in Newcastle, and then leaves them for months this question. The vast immigration detention estate, or years without proper consideration of their case, at in all its forms, is a standing indictment of our failed great cost to the mental wellbeing of those who are immigration system, which, as the Minister knows, every already vulnerable. Am I right to think that the Minister’s day carries with it a risk. He is right to focus on reform, solution to this is now to arbitrarily reduce the cases although I would say that the goal is not so much to be considered, rather than actually fixing the process? fast and furious as to be fair and accurate. 289 Immigration Rules: Supported 16 DECEMBER 2020 Immigration Rules: Supported 290 Accommodation Accommodation My question relates to the security of some of the Chris Philp: Yes, I do agree. In fact, some of those barracks accommodation and other accommodation 60,000 are people whose asylum claims are not pending that is being provided. There have been some reports of but whose asylum claims have been rejected, and where asylum seekers leaving these estates and not coming the legal process has been convoluted and removal has back. What inquiries has the Minister undertaken, and not been effected. One of the things that we intend to what reassurance can he give to communities where do in our Bill is ensure that failed asylum seekers can be these sites are located? more quickly returned to their safe country of origin, which, of course, is what should happen. My hon. Chris Philp: The size of the immigration detention Friend is right that we need to speed up asylum decision estate has actually shrunk considerably over the past making and get these numbers down. That is fair to five or six years. I think I am right in saying that it has individuals who have a valid asylum claim, but also to reduced in size by, very approximately, 50%. Detention the taxpayer, upon whom otherwise falls an extremely is used sparingly and only as a necessary precursor to large financial burden. I agree entirely with my hon. Friend’s removal. On the accommodation for people seeking sentiments. asylum, this is not detention. The people are not detained and are free to come and go as they choose, but obviously Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab) [V]: those operating the sites keep a very careful eye on Lewisham is proud to be a borough of sanctuary, and them. For example, there is a process of signing in and the council has stated that it will not collaborate with signing out, and if people are not back on the site by the Home Office in enforcing new immigration rules 10 pm each evening, then inquiries are made. Although that make rough sleeping a legal ground to cancel or the people in the centres are not detained, very careful refuse permission to stay in the UK. As we enter the measures are taken to understand their whereabouts to coldest months of the year, how can the Minister justify make sure that nothing untoward happens in the local these rules when they risk deterring rough sleepers from communities. I hope that my hon. Friend will take that seeking help and threaten to put many lives at risk? as reassurance, but I would be happy to discuss these issues further, particularly in the Yarl’s Wood context, if Chris Philp: The Government have been extremely he would like to do that. clear that the rules on rough sleeping to which the hon. Lady refers only apply where the person concerned has Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister persistently refused offers of help and support, and are for his response to the questions so far. The changes engaging in persistent antisocial behaviour. It is expected explain that an asylum claim can be reinstated after a to be used in an extremely small number of circumstances. “reasonable period of time” if another safe country is Of course everybody will be offered help and support to unable to admit that person. Can the Minister outline get off the streets. The Government have invested about what a reasonable period is, what support will be given £700 million this year alone in helping people to get off in the interim period, and what processes are in place to the streets and into accommodation. She mentions support people whose claims are deemed inadmissible Lewisham’s desire to assist. One way in which the London in the United Kingdom? Borough of Lewisham can certainly assist is by taking Chris Philp: I can assure the hon. Member that while on some unaccompanied asylum-seeking children who the process unfolds of seeking another country to receive are arriving in Kent. I look forward to hearing from her the person, support will be made available to avoid the and from the leader of her authority as to exactly how risk of destitution. The reasonable length of time taken many of those children they propose to take in over to secure the agreement of another country will be laid Christmas. out in guidance shortly, but it will be a matter of a few months; it will not be an extended period. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the Minister for his statement and for responding to questions James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): Britain’s broken for approaching an hour. We are now going to suspend asylum system is currently costing the taxpayer over for three minutes for the sanitisation of the Dispatch £1 billion per year. Does the Minister agree that a decisive Boxes, and the safe exit and arrival of Members of push is now needed comprehensively to deal with and Parliament. process more quickly the 60,000 asylum seekers currently in supported accommodation, and to disincentivise others 1.38 pm from making the perilous journey across the channel? Sitting suspended. 291 16 DECEMBER 2020 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang 292

Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang and we expect China to live up to its responsibilities under international law and to the commitments it has 1.42 pm made as a leading member of the international community. Continuing to stand up for those whose human rights Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford are oppressed remains a top priority for this Government. Green) (Con) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Sir Iain Duncan Smith: Let me make it clear that this Affairs if he will make a statement on what the Government question is not about being anti-Chinese—far from it. are doing to deal with the overwhelming evidence of the It is about the abuses of the dictatorial Chinese Communist Chinese Government’s use of Uyghur slave labour in Government and its ruling elite. On Monday, Inter- Xinjiang province. Parliamentary Alliance on China adviser Adrian Zenz The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams): Evidence of forced published research taken from internal Chinese Government Uyghur labour within Xinjiang and in other parts of files, which showed that in 2018 the prefectures of Aksu China is credible; it is growing and it is deeply troubling and Hotan sent 210,000 workers via coercive labour to the UK Government. Yesterday’s media reporting, transfer to forcibly pick cotton for a Chinese paramilitary based in part on Chinese Government documents, suggests organisation, the Xinjiang Production and Construction that forced labour is occurring on a significant scale. Corps. That is, in effect, slave labour. Furthermore, The reports raise particular concerns regarding the Mr Zenz and IPAC have also shown that the Chinese cotton industry,with serious implications for international Government forced Uyghur women into sterilisation. and UK supply chains. We have consistently made clear As a result, the Uyghur population in those regions fell our view that all businesses involved in investing in Xinjiang by as much as 84% between 2015 and 2018. That is action or with parts of their supply chains in Xinjiang should verging, I believe, on genocide. conduct appropriate due diligence to satisfy themselves Meanwhile, the peaceful proponents of democracy in that their activities do not support, or risk being seen to Hong Kong are locked up and forced to flee their support, any human rights violations or abuses. homes; Christians and Falun Gong have suffered organ In our national action plan, implementing the UN harvesting, while half a million Tibetans have been guiding principles on business and human rights, we set forced into labour camps. The Chinese Communist out our expectation that UK businesses should respect party is oppressive at home and bullying abroad—just human rights across their operations and their international look at the its actions in bullying Australia for calling supply relationships. While there is an important role for an independent inquiry into the origins of covid, for Government, businesses have a clear responsibility and the revelations over the weekend that supposedly to ensure that their supply chains are free from forced secure institutions such as even the Foreign Office have labour. We have issued clear guidance and held regular been penetrated not only by CCP members,but by members meetings with businesses and industry stakeholders to of the fanatical United Front. The security issues are underline our concerns and the importance of thorough paramount. due diligence. We have also financed projects to build I ask my hon. Friend when he will announce that those the evidence base and increase awareness of the risks. responsible for all these evils will be sanctioned under This includes the high-profile report “Uyghurs for sale”, the Magnitsky regimes. We have been going on and on which has led several companies to take action in respect about that, without answer. Will he commit to reviewing of their supply chains. all our dependency on China and to putting that on a I have updated the House on a number of occasions secure basis? May I ask what he is doing now about the on the UK’s international leadership and extensive penetration by those United Front entryists into the diplomatic activity to hold China to account. Most embassy and other secure institutions in the United recently, alongside Germany, we brought together a Kingdom? Will his Department support the forthcoming total of 39 countries in a joint statement at the UN genocide amendment that is now in the other place? General Assembly Third Committee in October. That I simply say to my hon. Friend that we must condemn— sent a powerful message to China on the breadth of not just criticise, but condemn—the actions being taken international concern, including on the issue of forced by this abusive Government. We have learned in the labour. In September, we devoted our entire national past that appeasement does not work. That is why we statement at the UN Human Rights Council to China, must take this head-on, right now, before it becomes too again raising forced labour. big to manage. In summary, the UK has taken the lead internationally. We have shone a light on the evidence of what is going Nigel Adams: I thank my right hon. Friend both for on, to raise awareness and urge action, and we have provided securing this urgent question and for the work he does clear guidance to business. However, the Government with colleagues cross-party on this important issue. He acknowledge that, in light of the gross human rights abuses raised the question of members of the CCP and United being committed, there is more to be done. That is why, Front getting access to some of our institutions. First in September, the Home Secretary announced plans to and foremost, we protect our most sensitive information strengthen the Modern Slavery Act 2015 and why the by ensuring that local staff do not have access to it, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office is regardless of whether they hold any party affiliation, co-ordinating extensive work right across Government and we undertake robust vetting of staff. We value the to address this deeply concerning issue. work of local staff immensely and they help to promote I will conclude by reassuring the House that we UK prosperity, but, as he knows, there are 91 million recognise and share the depth of cross-party concern on members of the Chinese Communist party; it is a the human rights situation in Xinjiang. We have made mass-membership organisation at the heart of Chinese that concern abundantly clear to the Chinese Government, government, business, academia and social life. 293 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang16 DECEMBER 2020 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang 294

Myrighthon.Friendalsoraisedthequestionof sanctions. The hon. Lady is right to mention the report. We have Of course, that is an issue that we have discussed on a repeatedly urged businesses involved in investing in regular basis since announcing our regime in July. We Xinjiang or with parts of their supply chains in the areconstantlyandcarefullyconsideringfurtherdesignations region to ensure that they conduct the appropriate due under that regime, and we will keep all potential listings diligence—to ensure that those activities do not support under review. human rights violations or abuses. We have reinforced My right hon. Friend also asked about the amendment that message through engagement with businesses, industry to the Trade Bill in the other place. Our commitment to groups and other stakeholders. Of course we work upholding human rights and opposing genocide in all its internationally in our co-operation on these issues; we forms is unequivocal. The Trade Bill applies only to trade were able to pull together 39 countries at the UN to support agreements that have already been signed with the EU our statement. that we are rolling over as an independent trading nation. On the Modern Slavery Act, incidentally, the UK is None of the agreements that we have signed, which have the first country in the world to require businesses to been scrutinised by Parliament, have eroded any domestic report on how they are tackling modern slavery in their standards in relation to human rights or equalities. operations. The Home Office has announced a series of Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab) [V]: Yesterday,Rabbi Ephraim measures to strengthen the Modern Slavery Act, including Mirvis described the treatment of the Uyghur people as extending transparency obligations to certain public bodies, an “unfathomable mass atrocity”. He added: which the hon. Lady mentioned, and those measures will be introduced as soon as parliamentary time allows. “Let no person say that the responsibility lies with others.” I can also tell her that the FCDO is co-ordinating extensive The shocking BBC revelations must be the trigger for further work across Government to address this deeply action, following accounts of forced sterilisations, beatings concerning issue, which we acknowledge. and re-education camps, which undeniably share features of genocide. Yesterday,it became clear that Britain is deeply involved Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): First, in this story. We are tied to the Uyghur people through I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for our global supply chains, importing cotton born of Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith). forced labour into our markets and, in doing so, unwittingly This report by Adrian Zenz is extremely powerful and helping to sustain these appalling mass atrocities. I makes clear and sobering reading. I am sure the Minister want to hear about action today. The Government must will have followed the Foreign Affairs Committee hearing introduce Magnitsky sanctions and work with our allies yesterday, where we heard from Uyghur activists—one to maximise their effect. Has the Minister discussed in Europe and one in the United States—as well as targeted sanctions with partners in North America, Europe human rights lawyers and a UN expert. They all made and Australia? clear their view on the human rights violations that we are witnessing today. In October, the Foreign Secretary said he needed to “gather the evidence”, but by December no Xinjiang The Minister has heard the call for Magnitsky sanctions officials were included in the updated Magnitsky list. to be urgently applied and not merely promised, as we Without further evidence, we will not make progress, so have sadly heard too much in the House. Will he commit how are the Government going to work with allies to to ensure that the resources of the Foreign Office at pressure China to allow the UN access to Xinjiang? Has home and abroad will help companies to ensure that the Minister considered the use of the 1984 convention they track slave products and slave labour through their against torture, a potential international legal process supply chains and that Her Majesty’s Government will that does not present the same jurisdictional challenges help them to inspect factories and supply routes around facing the International Criminal Court or face the same the world? evidence bar? When the BBC asked British companies to confirm Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend the Chair of the Select that cotton from Xinjiang was not used in their supply Committee is right. That is why we will be taking chains, only four were able to do so. If that does not fire measures to strengthen the Modern Slavery Act. As I our sense of urgency, what on earth will? The review of mentioned, the FCDO is co-ordinating further extensive the Modern Slavery Act 2015 concluded that for many work. We are working right across Departments to companies it was simply a “tick-box exercise”, with ensure that we have the correct response. That involves 40% not complying at all. It recommended enforcement supporting businesses, which do an awful lot of trade in and stronger processes. What are the Government waiting that part of the world, and we have been making it for? absolutely clear that they need to ensure that their Can the Minister confirm today that no public body, supply chains are free of forced labour, otherwise there whether it is the NHS, the armed forces or his own will very likely be consequences. He knows that sanctions Department, uses cotton from Xinjiang? If he cannot, are being constantly and carefully considered. They will he tell us what he is going to do to ensure that the also need to be developed responsibly and on the basis Modern Slavery Act covers public bodies and that not a of evidence. It is not appropriate to speculate on any penny of public money is spent on allowing the mass individuals who may or may not be sanctioned in the persecution of the Uyghur to continue? future. Nigel Adams: I thank the hon. Lady for her questions. I share the Chief Rabbi’s serious concerns about the Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): I congratulate the right gross violations of human rights that are being perpetrated hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain against Uyghur Muslims—and other minorities, it is fair Duncan Smith) on bringing this important issue to to say—in Xinjiang. the House. I am pleased to follow three very strong 295 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang16 DECEMBER 2020 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang 296

[Alyn Smith] Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Can Members please focus on shorter questions? I would like to get contributions that I agree with. There is common ground everybody in. here and a common effort, so I do not propose to cover that ground again. I will boil it down to two concrete Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD) [V]: questions for the Minister. As people shop for their Christmas presents, we are all The Minister is right to say that companies have a grateful to be able to buy products from our fifth largest primary responsibility for their own due diligence, to trading partner, China, but I am sure that many people ensure that they are not profiting from slave labour, but would be appalled to know that by shopping for some there has been a lot of carrot, and it is time for some brands, they are inadvertently spending their money on stick. The BBC has shown up the Government’s inaction such abhorrent practices as slave labour.Tohelp consumers in auditing UK companies’ involvement in and potential make wise choices now, will the Government create a profiting from slavery,so I repeat my call for a Government publicly available watchlist of companies of concern? audit of UK companies involved in this. I was struck Will the Minister consider a total ban on any products by his comments to the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa that are linked in any way to human rights abuses? Nandy) about the FCDO’s work across Departments to have parallel efforts on Government procurement. Could Nigel Adams: I thank the hon. Lady for her question we have a statement to the House specifically on those and for the way that she engages with FCDO. Most efforts in early course? parties are on the same page in this situation, and our officials meet businesses and industry stakeholders regularly to make them aware of the scale of forced labour issues. Nigel Adams: We will be able to update the House on I ask her to have a bit of patience into the new year, that cross-Government work in due course—likely in when we will bring to the House the next stage of the new year. The hon. Gentleman says that we are support and action via the Modern Slavery Act 2015. behind the curve. I would politely mention that the UK We will also be able to talk a little more about cross- being the first country to require businesses to report Government work. how they identify and address modern slavery should be to this Government’s credit. The Home Office made it I forgot to answer one point raised by my hon. Friend clear in September that we intend to strengthen those the Member for Wealden (Ms Ghani), about the Chinese laws. He will have to wait a little bit longer in terms of ambassador. He has been summoned to the Foreign those actions being brought to the House. Office to meet the permanent under-secretary,and following the publication of the report in the last couple of days, yesterday we made our views known strongly to the Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con): I want to add my embassy. weight to the Chief Rabbi’s intervention, which exposes the abuse of the Uyghur. The Chief Rabbi also said that Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): The principle there must be an of non-intervention in another country’s internal affairs “urgent, independent and unfettered investigation into what is is generally a good one, but surely it is applicable only happening.” when people are able to choose the Government whom Can the Minister comment on that? As crimes against they live under, and where their rights and freedoms are humanity by the Chinese Government grow, has the respected. Does my hon. Friend agree that with respect Chinese ambassador been summoned to explain what is to totalitarian states there is a duty on all strong and happening? free nations to speak out for the weak and forgotten, even when politically uncomfortable or inconvenient? The Business,Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, on which I sit, is conducting an inquiry into UK business Nigel Adams: My right hon. Friend makes a good supply chain links to Xinjiang. We are now implicated point. We are not dealing with a country with a normal in this, and we have to take action, not speak powerfully party system. We have long worked with international on this issue. Finally, may I encourage the Minister to partners on this issue, and we led the first joint international reach out to the incoming Biden Administration, to learn statements at the third committee of the General Assembly more about the United States Uyghur Forced Labor last year,as well as in June at the UN Human Right Council. Prevention Act and see how we can collaborate to prevent As I said, to get 39 countries to join our statement at the the abuse of Uyghur men, the exploitation of Uyghur third committee about the situation in Xinjiang was no women and the destruction of the lives of Uyghur mean feat but, as ever on these issues, my right hon. Friend children? is spot on.

Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is right to raise a Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): This House is number of points. We are seriously concerned about a united in its joint calls for our Government to act and number of gross violations of human rights that are respond robustly. I first raised the treatment of the being perpetrated against Uyghur men and women and Uyghurs in this House in 2015, yet here we are five years other minorities in Xinjiang. The Chief Rabbi is spot later and the situation remains every bit as desperate. I on, and we share his concerns about these violations know it is not the personal responsibility of the Minister, that are being perpetrated. As I said, we are working but I believe we have a moral obligation to use whatever internationally and co-operating with our partners on channels are available to ensure that all is done to this issue. I am hopeful that my hon. Friend will draw penalise China. We must apply as much pressure as we some comfort in the new year from the new measures can to help those who are being persecuted only because that we bring forward. of their religion and their faith. 297 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang16 DECEMBER 2020 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang 298

Nigel Adams: The hon. Gentleman is a long-term China? Will he also pursue the Magnitsky sanctions point, champion of freedom of religion and belief. We are and will he, after Brexit, pursue with our allies the point deeply concerned about the persecution of Christians, on trade sanctions? Muslims, Buddhists and Falun Gong practitioners, and I know he cares deeply about that. We are concerned Nigel Adams: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right about the actions that are going on, and as the UK we to raise this issue, as he has on other occasions. Of are proud that we stand up and speak out when we see course we will continue to call out China when it abuses such violations occur. I know the hon. Gentleman will its international obligations. We have announced new continue to bring such cases to the House, and if he measures that will strengthen the Modern Slavery Act. would like us to follow up any specific cases, we are As soon as an opportunity arises, we will bring those to more than happy to do so. the House. I would ask my right hon. Friend to be a little patient, into the new year, on the other measures Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): I commend the we hope to bring forward following our consultations Government for the approach they have taken thus far across Government. and for their intention to ensure that the Modern Slavery Act 2015 is made more robust to tackle this issue. With Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): The abhorrent that in mind, can I push for an extension to the Magnitsky persecution of Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang by the Act to be placed on those Chinese individuals we are Chinese Government must receive sustained international able to identify? Can I also ask whether the Government condemnation. The UK Government must be a key might recognise the independent Uyghur tribunal set up player in that and must not sit back and let the abuses by Sir Geoffrey Nice, which is due to report next year? continue. What steps is the Foreign Secretary taking to support the appointment of a UN special rapporteur Nigel Adams: We are liaising. We are very much aware for the investigation of forced labour and ethnic persecution of the work my hon. Friend refers to, and our officials in Xinjiang? and Ministers are having discussions in that regard. He mentions sanctions. As he knows, we are constantly and Nigel Adams: We have been leading on this issue carefully considering further designations, and we will internationally, and I referred to the 38 other countries keep all potential listings under review. that joined us at the UN in one of the many statements that we have made on this issue. However, any action we take at the UN has to have an opportunity of succeeding, Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: and there is no point bringing forward measures that May I remind the Minister, who I have a lot of time for, will potentially give the intended target a propaganda that we have all-party support on this issue? China is coup. really waging a war against democracy and human rights —not just in Hong Kong and China but worldwide. Is it Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con) [V]: Like not about time that we sent President Xi Jinping a strong many right hon. and hon. Members across the House, I message that we will not continue to allow investment in have been shocked, saddened and appalled by the plight our country or to allow wealthy members of the politburo of the Uyghurs in China. This was reinforced yesterday to come to the classic luxury shops in this country—when by the words of the Chief Rabbi. I would like to inquire they are open? Can we not send a stronger message now what practical steps the Minister and the Foreign Secretary that we will not put up with this any longer and that our are taking to hold China to account for its disturbing hearts and minds are with the poor persecuted people and abhorrent actions. working as slave labourers? Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is right to raise this Nigel Adams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his again. We welcome the Chief Rabbi’s intervention, and question. Of course, trade with China is important to we share his serious concerns about the violations that the UK. China is the UK’s fourth largest trading partner, are being perpetrated against Uyghurs and other minorities and total bilateral trade was worth over £76 billion in in Xinjiang. I can assure my hon. Friend that we are the four quarters to the end of quarter 2 2020. However, playing a leading role internationally in holding China as we continue to strive for that positive relationship, to account for these violations. Wehave led or co-ordinated we will not sacrifice our values or our security. We are multiple joint statements on this issue. This groundswell absolutely clear-sighted about challenges, and as we of international concern does send a powerful message, continue to engage we will always protect our national and I can assure him that it is increasing the pressure on interest, speak up and hold China to its international the Chinese authorities to change course. commitments and promises. Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) [V]: Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): In the As future post-Brexit trade deals are negotiated, can the 19th century, the House of Commons established its Minister confirm that the UK will not back down on its legacy on behalf of the enslaved and persecuted people moral and ethical principles to secure any economic in the world with the slavery and emancipation Acts. Is gains and that China agreeing to put an end to violations the Minister aware, after these questions, that whatever of its citizens’human rights is an unmoveable precondition action he takes, the House of Commons will give him to the UK signing such a deal? full support? The Chinese Government do not care a damn about mere words; only action will persuade Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady raises a really important them. Will he therefore summon the UK fashion industry point. We have a high level of ambition for our trade to tell it that, unless it can prove that cotton is not and investment partnership with China. We want to picked with slave labour, it will stop importing from work with China to increase trade and investment flows, 299 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang16 DECEMBER 2020 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang 300

[Nigel Adams] to be developed with absolute evidence in a responsible way. It is not right to speculate or rush into these to make sure that our companies can get market access measures. There is a pretty good chance of seeing asset and to set a mutual ambition for a future relationship, flight if that is the case, but I can assure him that we are but as we strive for that positive future relationship, we very carefully considering any further designations. will not sacrifice either our values or our security. David Johnston (Wantage) (Con): In the 21st century, Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: I businesses put a great premium on showing that they refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial are socially responsible, yet it is impossible to be one if Interests. I thank the right hon. Member for Chingford you use products that are the result of forced labour, so and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) for securing does my hon. Friend agree that our businesses need to this urgent question. The treatment of the Uyghurs is establish immediately whether they are using anything atrocious. Will the Minister confirm that the imposition that is a product of forced labour, and if they are, to of measures intended to prevent births within an ethnic cease doing so immediately? or religious group is expressly forbidden under the terms of article II(d) of the UN convention on genocide, Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is right to raise this. I and will he seriously consider what international actions agree that there is a role for Government, but businesses can be taken beyond joint statements to respond to the have a vital role to play in ensuring that their supply human rights abuses being committed in Xinjiang? chains are free of forced labour. We repeatedly urge businesses involved in investing in Xinjiang or with parts Nigel Adams: The hon. Gentleman is right to refer to of their supply chain in the region to do so and to conduct this. We debated that very issue some months ago in the that due diligence. We are going to make enhancements Chamber. Of course, we abhor any of those practices. to the Modern Slavery Act. Wehave reinforced this message He refers to the term “genocide”. That very much has a through very close engagement with businesses, industry specific definition in international law.It is our long-standing groups and other stakeholders. policy that any judgment as to whether crimes against humanity or genocide have occurred is absolutely a matter Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): for judicial decision. Well done, Chief Rabbi, for being one of the most authentic voices to speak out in support of the Uyghur Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con) [V]: The people. Well done, Ministers, too, for taking a lead in ever-increasing body of evidence of industrialised atrocities October at the United Nations. Will the Minister persuade by the Chinese Communist party brings into stark focus not only his colleagues, but the Governments that he my calls for the creation of an atrocity prevention persuaded in October to support the Uyghur people, to unit at the FCDO. Does my hon. Friend agree that, look at national public procurement supply chains to internationally, we must ensure that the cost to the CCP’s ensure that, while it is difficult to persuade the fashion reputation and economy is so great that it finally ceases industry to eschew dubiously sourced cotton, national the appalling genocide being committed against the Governments are doing everything in their power to Uyghur people, and what steps is he taking to magnify ensure that products in their supply chains—I am thinking those costs to the greatest extent possible? particularly of uniforms—have nothing to do with cotton sourced from countries that may be using forced labour? Nigel Adams: I thank my hon. Friend for her question and for her continued work in this area. I agree that it is Nigel Adams: My right hon. Friend is right. As I said, absolutely vital that China understands the breadth of we are working cross-Government and we are working international concern about the situation in Xinjiang. intensively with our international partners. It is absolutely She knows that we have taken the lead internationally the case that we should be bringing pressure to bear on on this issue. We have gone from 28 countries supporting those companies that are operating in the region. This is a joint statement in June to 39 countries supporting a an area on which we will have a bit more to say in the statement at the UN in October. This does send a powerful new year, but I give him my assurance that we are working message to China, and if international businesses continue very co-operatively with our international partners on to take the action we are urging to ensure their supply these issues, as well as across Government. chains are free of forced labour—I note that a number of prominent UK businesses have already done so—that Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): Some will also send an important message to China. of the comments that the Minister has made remind me of his predecessor’sresponses to the situation in Myanmar Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab): Why has it taken against Rohingya Muslims. It shows that the failure of the FCDO so long to apply the Magnitsky sanctions our Government to take a strong international leadership against Chinese Government officials responsible for role to secure justice sends a dangerous message to grave human rights abuses against the Uyghur people—we repressive Governments around the world that ethnic have heard from other Members what has happened in cleansing and genocide against Muslims and other Tibet and what is happening in Hong Kong—given the minorities is an acceptable policy tool. That is the speed in which the Minister has said that they added message that he is sending, so it is time that our Government sanctions to Belarussian officials previously? stop making excuses. I appreciate what he is doing, but he needs to look at the record of action and inaction in Nigel Adams: The hon. Gentleman will know, because the past and learn from that. That is why I call on him he has heard it multiple times at this Dispatch Box, that once again to heed the advice of Members across the we are constantly and carefully considering further House and start to apply sanctions—Magnitsky sanctions designations under the sanctions regime, but they have —and to seek a UN investigation into what is happening, 301 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang16 DECEMBER 2020 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang 302 as well as supporting the International Court of Justice Nigel Adams: I thank my hon. Friend for raising this case on genocide prevention led by the Gambia in issue. A whole range of options is available to us that relation to the Rohingya Muslims, because it is just not involve working with the UN. As I mentioned in a previous acceptable for our Government to continue to make answer, whatever steps we take have to have a realistic excuses. chance of being successful in that particular forum. We will continue to work with our international partners, Nigel Adams: We are not making excuses. I have a lot as she suggests; working alongside our international of time for the hon. Lady and we have spoken at great partners is the best approach in this regard. length on these issues, both inside and outside the Chamber. We are taking a lead; if that was not the case, a rising number of countries would not be supporting Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): We have rightly our statements at the UN. We are of course looking heard from both sides of the House condemnation of very closely at the case in Myanmar—we have discussed the atrocious, barbaric and, quite frankly, harrowing it face-to-face on a number of occasions and will continue treatment of the Uyghur people in Xinjiang. Members to do. from all parties who have been working on the National Security and Investment Bill over the past month heard Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): I evidence from none another than Sir Richard Dearlove, understand that these things are difficult, but I encourage the former head of MI6, who sketched out a very the Minister to persuade our allies that, whatever the complex picture that clearly showed that for far too difficulties and costs of tackling this and other problems long successive Governments have placed economic now, they will only go up. The sooner we deal with these interests, including with China, far ahead of our human issues, the easier they will be to tackle. On this particular rights obligations. Will the Minister consider that and issue, what steps can we take to ensure—not just through say whether he will look again at our relationship with guidance—that UK companies are not benefiting from China and not prioritise economic interests ahead of slave labour? either national security or human rights?

Nigel Adams: Like many right hon. and hon. Members, Nigel Adams: The hon. Gentleman is right to raise my hon. Friend is right to raise this issue. We constantly this issue. Obviously trade with China is important to urge businesses involved in investing in this part of the us. As I said earlier, it is the fourth largest trading world to ensure that their supply chains are free of partner. It is important to help UK firms to overcome forced labour and to satisfy themselves that their activities the economic challenges of covid and ensure our long-term do not support, or give the impression that they support, prosperity, but I can guarantee the hon. Gentleman that forced labour. We constantly talk to industry groups, as we will not sacrifice either our values or our security in well as directly to businesses. It is worth pointing out that regard. that we have financed projects to increase awareness of how international supply chains may contribute to human rights violations or abuses in Xinjiang. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: Clearly the footage shown on the BBC earlier this week showed Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP) [V]: factories located right next door to prison camps in Concentration camps, forced labour,medical sterilisations Xinjiang. That is very disturbing and suggests very —disturbingly, we have seen all this before. Until garment strongly that the people working in those factories are retailers and Xinjiang officials act, will the Minister in the prison camps, and are not doing so willingly. It is legislate to require UK garment retailers to show on also clear that the conditions under which people are labelling if cotton is sourced from forced Uyghur labour living are inhumane.When he sees the Chinese ambassador, in Xinjiang, so that consumers can decide for themselves will my hon. Friend urge him to accept the need for an which brands they wish to support? independent investigation into the treatment and detention of the Uyghur people, so that we can get to the bottom Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady is right to raise this of this and ensure proper, humane conditions, and issue. We constantly raise serious concerns about the make sure that people are paid for the work they do and gross violations of human rights to which she refers. As that they do so voluntarily? I have said, we raised the deeply concerning latest new evidence directly with the Chinese embassy yesterday. I Nigel Adams: We do make this absolutely clear; in urge her to have a little patience in terms of the new fact, the Foreign Secretary has made it clear that the measures on supply chains that the Government are going UN Human Rights Commissioner or another independent to bring forward. fact-finding body must be given unfettered access to Xinjiang to check the facts to which my hon. Friend Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): It was disappointing refers. We call for that repeatedly in joint statements at to read this week that the chief prosecutor at the UN bodies and we bring this up regularly with the Chinese International Criminal Court had declined to investigate ambassador to the UK, but I reiterate that it is vital that China in respect of the persecution of Uyghur Muslims China allows such access without delay. on the basis that the court did not have jurisdiction to do so, and we know that the UK tribunal led by Geoffrey Nice has no legal teeth of its own, so will my Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): What conversations has hon. Friend consider working with our many international the Minister had with his counterpart in China about partners to seek a special resolution at the UN and the treatment of the Uyghur people,and what conversations perhaps even establish a specialist tribunal, so that in has he had with counterparts elsewhere to co-ordinate time those responsible for these crimes can be brought an international response to the human rights abuses to justice? being committed against the Uyghur in Xinjiang? 303 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang16 DECEMBER 2020 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang 304

Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady asks a very good question. said, it is reflected in the growth in the number of countries We regularly have conversations with our international that have joined us, rising from 28 countries last year partners, as exemplified by the 39 countries that joined to 39 countries at the latest Human Rights Council us at the UN, and the Foreign Secretary has spoken in June. directly with his counterpart in China on this very issue. Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): The human rights indeed chilling to see those pictures, and to read about violations in China have rightly sparked significant concern what is happening not only in the re-education camps in my constituency,not least among the substantial Muslim but now in this slave labour report. We have seen a population in Kensington. Will my hon. Friend commit decade of this Government getting closer to China, to me that we will keep up the international pressure, in which has been deeply concerning for many of us. Now particular with the incoming US Administration? the Government are delaying in putting new measures forward—talking about the new year, and not saying Nigel Adams: Of course, it is absolutely key that we when in the new year, or exactly what they will do. We keep up the international pressure, working with our cannot wait. The time is urgent now. People’s lives are international partners, not least the United States and being put at risk. Could the Government be clearer on the incoming Administration. We are looking forward exactly what they are bringing forward and when, and to working with the new Administration on all our shared how they will bring more nations on board, because interests, and the issue of Xinjiang and the Uyghur 39 countries are clearly not enough to stop this human population will be high on our agenda. rights abuse?

Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady will have to be patient, I commend the work of the BBC for shining a bright am afraid, in terms of the parliamentary time that light on these practices. It is a body that often gets a lot would allow us to bring forward the changes to strengthen of bad press in this Chamber, but it has done a terrific the Modern Slavery Act, for example. She talked about job. Given that 20% of global cotton comes from the our very recent relationship with China. We want a area—84% of Chinese cotton that goes into production—it positive and mature relationship with China, which is a is difficult for businesses to trace the source in their very important member of the international community. supply chains. What powers do the Government have Without China, we risk not being able to tackle global under the Modern Slavery Act 2015, and how are they challenges, but when we have concerns we will raise exercising them? Why have the Government been quick them, and where we need to intervene we do. to move on Belarus with Magnitsky sanctions, but slow on China? Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con): My constituents in Stoke-on-Trent Central are deeply concerned Nigel Adams: On the final point, the hon. Gentleman and shocked by reports of forced labour of the Uyghur will be aware that, as I have said numerous times at this people in Xinjiang. Britain’s Modern Slavery Act requires Dispatch Box, we are carefully considering a range of big businesses to detail their anti-slavery efforts annually; designations under our global human rights regime. We however,as my hon. Friend will know,well-meaning words have to do that in a responsible way, based on accurate fall short of action. What measures are the Government evidence, and all potential listings in that regard are under taking to ensure that UK businesses are not complicit review. in modern-day slavery? In terms of supply chains, we are repeatedly urging businesses involved in investing in Xinjiang, or with Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend rightly raises the Modern parts of their supply chains in that region, to ensure Slavery Act. At the risk of repeating myself, I remind that they conduct the appropriate due diligence to the House that we are the first country in the world to ensure that none of their products, or the supply chains require businesses to report on how they are tackling for them, have been involved in forced labour. I politely modern slavery in their operations and supply chains. ask the hon. Gentleman, as I have other hon. Members, As she will know,in September the Home Office announced to wait until the new year, when we will be able to a series of measures to strengthen the Act, and transparency conclude our cross-Government work and come to the in thousands of businesses and public body supply House to put forward some measures that hopefully he chains. That involves extending the reporting requirement will be able to support. to public bodies with a budget of £36 million or more. Wewant more transparency and comparability by requiring Dean Russell (Watford) (Con): There is no excuse in organisations to publish their statement on our new the 21st century for slavery to still exist, so will my hon. reporting service. We will bring those measures forward Friend agree that businesses should hear loud and clear at the first opportunity when parliamentary time allows. today that they should never profit and see fashionable the opportunity to make money from the slavery and Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): That is suffering of others? Will he please outline the steps that very good to hear. I wonder whether those requirements he is taking to build the largest possible international will apply to the many organisations that have been coalition, including business, to condemn the Chinese handed covid procurement contracts by the Minister’s action? ministerial colleagues to lots of their different friends. We are all becoming very dependent on the use of Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is large quantities of personal protective equipment that vital that China understands the breadth of international have been manufactured in China. What steps are the concern about the situation. That has been the focus of Government taking specifically to ensure integrity in all our intensive diplomatic activity on the issue. As I those supply chains? 305 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang16 DECEMBER 2020 Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang 306

Nigel Adams: We have taken steps to reduce our done at the earliest opportunity when parliamentary dependenceonimportedPPE.Thankfully,UKmanufacturers time allows. Since the work that she refers to, we have are now capable of providing 70% of all items of PPE, also been carrying out extensive work across Government except gloves, that we expect to use throughout the winter. on this particular issue and, as I have said to other hon. The hon. Gentleman may not be aware that, before the and right hon. Members, I ask her to have just a little pandemic, just 1% of PPE was produced in the UK. The bit of patience into the new year and she will be able FCDO is working through our embassy in Beijing to to see the further work that the Government come ensure that external due diligence service providers carry forward with. out open source checks on Chinese suppliers of medical products produced during the peak of the covid epidemic. James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): Given that the All procurement processes were in line with the UK FCDO routinely engages with its Chinese counterparts, procurement regulations during this time. may I please ask the Minister what its reaction is when confronted with the evidence and whether diplomacy Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): I am sure that with China has any effect at all? my hon. Friend will be absolutely appalled by the credible reports of forced abortions and forced sterilisation. Nigel Adams: I can assure my hon. Friend that China Will he commit to taking action on this by formally and does care deeply about its international reputation. We publicly condemning the population control practices have seen China change its narrative in response to of the Chinese Communist party and requesting that international pressure. One example is that it has moved these cease immediately? from outright denial of the existence of these camps to claiming that they are vocational education centres. Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is right to raise these Its vigorous protest against our multilateral activity abhorrent issues. We debated this in the Chamber earlier suggests that it cares a great deal about the action that this year when a report was made available.Wewill continue we are taking, so I disagree with those who say that our to hold China to account under its international obligations diplomacy has no effect. Of course, the situation in and to take the lead globally. Xinjiang remains deeply concerning, but that is a reason Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): China to doubly intensify our diplomatic efforts and not to routinely breaches the international norms that we stand abandon them. for, whether it be egregious trade practices, intellectual property or human rights issues such as those in Xinjiang. Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): Given the growing Will my hon. Friend outline the steps taken to raise our concern over the impact of disinformation emanating concerns directly with the Chinese Government? from Confucius Institutes, including efforts to deny that which is patently happening in Xinjiang, will the Minister Nigel Adams: Absolutely. Again, my hon. Friend is and his Government colleagues be reviewing the presence right to raise this matter. We did so yesterday directly of those institutions in the UK with a view to limiting with the Chinese embassy. The Chinese ambassador is their influence? regularly summoned to the FCDO—one would think that he would have his own car parking space by now, Nigel Adams: The hon. Gentleman raises a very good given the number of times that he has visited. The point that no one else has yet raised. A number of UK Foreign Secretary has raised our serious concerns about higher education providers host Confucius Institutes, the situation in Xinjiang directly with his counterpart, and are responsible for ensuring that their partnerships Foreign Minister and State Councillor Wang Yi, on a are managed appropriately with the right due diligence number of occasions, most recently in July. in place. We take very seriously any concerns regarding the operation of international organisations at those Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It has been education providers. Like all similar bodies, Confucius nearly two years since the Environmental Audit Committee Institutes need to operate transparently and with a full published its report into fast fashion. During that inquiry, commitment to our values of openness and freedom of we heard disturbing evidence about practices in the expression. cotton trade in Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan and about bondage child labour in the cotton mills of Tamil Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the Nadu, and there was also reference to prison camps in Minister for responding to the urgent question and other China as well. The Government rejected nearly all of questions for exactly an hour. We are now going to our recommendations, including a requirement for due suspend briefly,just for the sanitisation of the Government diligence checks on the supply chain. Does the Minister Dispatch Box; the other was not touched. regard that as a missed opportunity, and what progress has been made in the past two years since that warning 2.41 pm sign was raised by the Environmental Audit Committee? Sitting suspended. Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady is right to raise this. As Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, I have mentioned on a number of occasions, we will 4 June). be strengthening the Modern Slavery Act. That will be 307 16 DECEMBER 2020 Arms (Exports and Remote Warfare) 308

Arms (Exports and Remote Warfare) has a significant impact on other countries’ domestic affairs globally and it is right that we in this place Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order properly scrutinise those effects. Although the existing No. 23) arrangements give a façade of scrutiny, they contain no effective mechanisms for democratic oversight or 2.43 pm transparency.Currently,the Minister grants a licence—after consideration, I do not doubt—but there is no transparency Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): I beg to move, to that process. We do have the Committees on Arms That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision about Export Controls, which sits across and is composed of enabling arms exports oversight by the United Kingdom Parliament four Committees of this House, but it seldom meets, the and the devolved Parliaments and Assemblies; to prohibit the use of lethal autonomous weapons; to make requirements about Chair is unpaid, it did not sit at all for nine months in transparency in arms exports and the use of drones and other 2015 and it took six months to be established in 2020. It remote weapons; and for connected purposes. barely publishes reports—the last was two years ago. I am very proud to be here on behalf of the Scottish We do not think, therefore, that the current system is National party and others. I am grateful to the supporters, working, and we do not think it is adequate for where and a wide range of non-governmental organisations we are now and where we will be in the future. We and civic society who are very concerned by this topic. propose to create a Select Committee with status, with I am particularly grateful to the Oxford Research budget and with heft within this House to properly Group’s remote warfare programme, Drone Wars UK, approve licences on ministerial recommendation, to the UN Association, Amnesty International, Article 36, move the scrutiny and move the power to this place on the Campaign to Stop Killer Robots, Scientists for Global behalf of the people of these islands. Responsibility, the Campaign Against the Arms Trade, There are security implications, of course. We would and the Quakers, as well as to our excellent Clerks of model the new Select Committee on the Intelligence the House and Roddy McGlynn in my team for getting and Security Committee. We believe that the solutions us here today. can be found. We would also task it with seeking, There are three strands to our proposal. We believe as part of its deliberations, input from the devolved that change is needed urgently to how the UK deals Administrations and civic society to ensure democratic with: arms exports—that is sending material elsewhere accountability and transparency within its processes. Of for other people’s control; drones—that is material that course, the organisation of how the House scrutinises may be deployed globally either from the UK or not, the Government is a matter for the House, but this is a but under the UK’s control; and lethal autonomous wider question. The architecture is not fit for purpose, weapons—that is new technology that represents a very but it also needs new purposes going forward, particularly dangerous evolution in warfare. We also believe that the on drones. existing structure of scrutiny within this House—which Drones—new technology that is evolving very fast—have is, of course, a matter for this House, although we think changed warfare already. We saw in the last few weeks it needs to be looked at in the round in this piece of in Nagorno-Karabakh that the deployment of drone legislation—is not fit for purpose. technology was pivotal in the outcome of that conflict It is worth establishing a few points. I am an SNP and in the suffering of many, many civilians. UK Member of this House proudly working towards an Government policy on drones is opaque and effectively independent Scotland and energising democratic prospects, incompatible with democratic oversight. It is also put to so why should I care about UK arms exports? There is a shame—there are other countries doing this better—by simple answer: we are not independent yet and this is an the US and Israel, who have much more transparent issue of pressing domestic—however we define it—and and accountable policies on drone use. global concern. It is incumbent upon us to try to effect The legislation we seek to bring forward would update change here, to make Scotland’s voice and concerns UK policy on drones, particularly on the rules of heard, and thereby demonstrate the stance of an engagement, adherence to international law, and—this independent Scotland. Whatever is in Scotland’s future, is really important—post-strike assessments to learn I believe that this is a pressing domestic issue for all of lessons on how the technology is evolving. We would us everywhere. have that overseen by the new Committee. This would It is also worth establishing—it may be controversial be a modern, democratic oversight that will not present for some—that I am not against the defence industry. problems for a modern, democratically overseen military Defence companies represent important research and command and would move power back to where it development,precisionmanufacturing,high-endengineering, should be. academic contributions and partnerships, and aerospace The third strand of the legislation relates to lethal developments that are key parts of Scotland’s economy autonomous weapons. This is, as yet, experimental now and going forward—and the UK’s as well. They technology, but it is evolving very fast and, I believe, in also play a part in the defence ecosystem and the national a deeply dangerous direction. Drones are remote and security of these islands. I believe the Bill will help to can operate worldwide, but there is still a human finger strengthen their position by removing the stigma that is, on the trigger. The development of artificial intelligence in some quarters, associated with their efforts by bringing and facial recognition technology, as well as other related a transparency to their effects globally. technologies, could remove that human element from There are, as I say, three strands to the proposal. On control of these weapons altogether. They should be arms exports, we must assess the scale of what we are banned pre-emptively. I am not the first person to call talking about. The UK is the world’s second-biggest for that; 30 nations, the UN Secretary-General and, exporter of arms, worth £11 billion in 2019. That has a indeed, the Pope have called for a ban, on moral but significant economic impact domestically, but it also also technological grounds. 309 Arms (Exports and Remote Warfare) 16 DECEMBER 2020 310

The UK can genuinely take a lead on this and, in a Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill: bipartisan spirit, I urge it to do so, because that would Business of the House be a genuinely globally significant development. Ban lethal autonomous weapons pre-emptively and work to Ordered, build a global consensus on the practicalities of meaningful That the following provisions shall apply to the proceedings on human control over weapons systems. That would be of the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill: global significance. If global Britain got behind that Timetable effort, it would be a meaningful contribution and I would (1) (a) Proceedings on Second Reading and in Committee of be the first to applaud. the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be taken at today’s sitting in In conclusion, we believe that the Bill is necessary, accordance with this Order. pragmatic, workable and urgent. There is a lot of support (b) Proceedings on Second Reading shall (so far as not previously for it across the House and in wider civic society. In that concluded) be brought to a conclusion three hours after the bipartisan spirit, I commend it to the House. commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order. Question put and agreed to. (c) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any Ordered, proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a That Alyn Smith, Kirsty Blackman, Deidre Brock, conclusion six hours after the commencement of proceedings on Amy Callaghan, Stewart Hosie, Caroline Lucas, Chris the Motion for this Order. Law, Stewart Malcolm McDonald, Kirsten Oswald, Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put Liz Saville Roberts, Tommy Sheppard and Hywel Williams (2) When the Bill has been read a second time: present the Bill. (a) it shall, despite Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of bills Alyn Smith accordingly presented the Bill. not subject to a programme order), stand committed to a Committee of the whole House without any Question being put; Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on (b) the Speaker shall leave the chair whether or not notice of an Friday 12 March, and to be printed (Bill 235). Instruction has been given. (3) (a) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee of the whole House, the Chair shall report the Bill to the House without putting any Question. (b) If the Bill is reported with amendments, the House shall proceed to consider the Bill as amended without any Question being put. (4) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (1), the Chair or Speaker shall forthwith put the following Questions in the same order as they would fall to be put if this Order did not apply: (a) any Question already proposed from the chair; (b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question so proposed; (c) the Question on any amendment, new Clause or new Schedule selected by the Chair or Speaker for separate decision; (d) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion made by a Minister of the Crown; (e) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded; and shall not put any other questions, other than the question on any motion described in paragraph (15)(a) of this Order. (5) On a Motion so made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the Chair or Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill. (6)If twoormoreQuestionswouldfalltobeputunderparagraph(4)(d) on successive amendments moved or Motions made by a Minister of the Crown, the Chair or Speaker shall instead put a single Question in relation to those amendments or Motions. (7) If two or more Questions would fall to be put under paragraph (4)(e) in relation to successive provisions of the Bill, the Chair shall instead put a single Question in relation to those provisions, except that the Question shall be put separately on any Clause of or Schedule to the Bill which a Minister of the Crown has signified an intention to leave out. Consideration of Lords Amendments (8) (a) Any Lords Amendments to the Bill may be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly. (b) Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement; and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph (a) shall thereupon be resumed. (9) Paragraphs (2) to (7) of Standing Order No. 83F (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments) apply for the purposes of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (8) of this Order. 311 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 312 Bill: Business of the House Subsequent stages Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill (10) (a) Any further Message from the Lords on the Bill may be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any Second Reading proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly. 2.52 pm (b) Proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands): I beg to one hour after their commencement; and any proceedings suspended move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. under sub-paragraph (a) shall thereupon be resumed. The UK will regain full control of its borders at the (11) Paragraphs (2) to (5) of Standing Order No. 83G (Programme end of the transition period on 31 December. Irrespective orders: conclusion of proceedings on further messages from the of the ongoing negotiations with the European Union Lords) apply for the purposes of bringing any proceedings to a regarding a free trade agreement, the Government have conclusion in accordance with paragraph (10) of this Order. been clear that there will be additional requirements for Reasons Committee people and goods travelling to the EU. Since the Trade (12) Paragraphs (2) to (6) of Standing Order No. 83H (Programme Bill is unlikely to pass and receive Royal Assent before orders: reasons committee) apply in relation to any committee to the new year, we need to ensure that there is no gap in be appointed to draw up reasons after proceedings have been brought to a conclusion in accordance with this Order. the Government’s ability to share the information that we already collect and hold in order to mitigate any Miscellaneous temporary friction from the end of the transition period. (13) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply to That is what this Bill achieves, replicating the Government proceedings on the Bill. amendments made to the Trade Bill—clauses 8 to 10 (14) Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not apply —which is currently passing through the other place. in relation to any proceedings to which this Order applies. These powers are critical to support the use and sharing (15) (a) No Motion shall be made, except by a Minister of the of trade-related data between Government Departments Crown, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Bill are and public bodies. They will ensure that there is no taken, to recommit the Bill or to vary or supplement the provisions of this Order. lapse in their ability to do this at the end of the transition period before the Trade Bill achieves Royal Assent. (b) No notice shall be required of such a Motion. (c) Such a Motion may be considered forthwith without any In summary, the Bill will allow the effective use of Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that Government data to ensure the smooth flow of people, purpose shall be suspended accordingly. goods and services after the end of the transition period. (d) The Question on such a Motion shall be put forthwith; and The Cabinet Office’sborder and protocol delivery group— any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph (c) shall thereupon the BPDG—is leading work to ensure that our borders be resumed. are robust and efficient, establishing a borders operations (e) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply centre to monitor and manage flow through the border to proceedings on such a Motion. and support mitigation of any disruption. (16) (a) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to proceedings to which this Order applies except by a Minister of the Crown. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (b) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. (Ind): The Bill is relatively uncontroversial. However, the (17) The start of any debate under Standing Order No. 24 flow of information in itself will not be enough to deal (Emergency debates) to be held on a day on which the Bill has with the situation we are likely to face in the new year. been set down to be taken as an Order of the Day shall be How concerned is the Minister by the Select Committee postponed until the conclusion of any government business of a on Welsh Affairs’report that the Welsh ports, in particular, kind referred to in sub-paragraph (a) of Standing Order No. 14(6) are at an unacceptable risk of not being ready for (Arrangement of public business) on that day; and Standing whatever faces them at the beginning of next year? Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply to proceedings in respect of any such debate. Greg Hands: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that (18) Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be interrupted intervention, which was well put. I appeared before the under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House.—(Greg Hands.) Welsh Affairs Committee as part of its inquiry, and I read its report in some detail at the weekend. We are working flat out across Government to ensure that all our borders and ports are ready. It is the purpose of the borders and protocol delivery group and of the borders operation centre to make sure that we are ready. We are confident that we have done everything we can to ensure that we are ready on our borders for 1 January, but I have read the report and I noted what it had to say. The Government will be responding in due course. These powers are critical to support the use and sharing of data related to trade. As I mentioned, a border operations centre will monitor and manage flow through the border and support the mitigation of any disruption. To facilitate that, the Bill will ensure that the Government make the best use of the data they already collect and hold, and reduce inefficiencies and bureaucracy for business. It will support better services by permitting data on the flow of international trade to be shared and analysed, and by helping to identify and resolve the 313 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 314 Bill Bill root cause of disruption. It will allow the Government I will be making the same two commitments to the to use data more effectively to plan new controls at the devolved Administrations on data sharing that we made border, ensuring that security is maintained, that new during Committee of the Trade Bill in the other place. requirements are introduced seamlessly and that any First, the data shared under clause 2 will be used by temporary friction is mitigated. the border operations centre being established by the We recognise that the Bill has been proposed on an Cabinet Office to develop strategic insights about the expedited schedule, and that hon. and right hon. Members flow of trade and functioning of the border. The Cabinet attach great importance to data security, so I would like Office is committed to sharing strategic analysis related to reassure the House that the Bill contains measures to to flow of trade where it will support the more effective ensure that the permitted use of the data it facilitates is management of flow through the border.The Cabinet Office discretionary and specific. The Bill does not create any will continue to work closely with devolved Administrations additional powers to collect data, and it applies only to to ensure that relevant analysis and information can be the public bodies specified and only where those public shared to support devolved functions relating to trade bodies are satisfied that the data use would support a andmanagementof theborder.Secondly,theUKGovernment Ministers’ functions relating to trade. It creates an commit to consulting the devolved Administrations before offence of unlawfully disclosing information, and ensures any devolved authorities are added to the list of specified that data sharing remains subject to general data protection authorities that can share data under clause 2. regulation and Data Protection Act protection. Regarding Regarding the expedited schedule that we are using the expedited schedule, I should emphasise that all these today, I should emphasise that all these measures have measures have already been subject to substantive scrutiny already been subject to substantive scrutiny in both in both Houses during the passage of the Trade Bill, Houses during the passage of the Trade Bill through the through the relevant clauses, without further amendment. relevant clauses, without further amendment. As I said, The Bill also contains a sunset clause, which will ensure the Bill contains a sunset clause, which will ensure consistency with the powers being delivered through the consistency with the powers being delivered through the Trade Bill. Trade Bill. Clause 2(9) provides the power for a Minister of the This Bill is necessary to ensure that Government can Crown to add public authorities to the data-sharing use this information properly to minimise disruption at gateway. As this power would include the ability to add the border following the end of the transition period. It devolved Ministers, it has the potential to alter the is limited in scope and contains specific safeguards executive competence of devolved Administrations. In to prevent inappropriate or excessive use of data. It is a accordance with the Sewel convention, we are seeking procedural but vital Bill to support readiness for the consent from the devolved legislatures, and I have written UK to take back control of its borders, minimise any to Ministers in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland temporary disruption to the flow of people and goods, to begin this process. and support the development of smart processes and frictionless trade that will support businesses and citizens Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful to the Minister for alike. That will, in turn, underpin the delivery of a world- giving way, and I apologise for intervening on him once class border fit for the UK’s future as an independent again. Is that the reason that the Welsh Government are trading nation, protecting our country, strengthening our not specifically included in clause 2? Are the Government economy and growing our international trade. I commend waiting for the legislative consent motion to go through, the Bill to the House. after which the Welsh Government would be included as one of the groups that would be part of the data sharing? What is the reason for the Welsh Government 3.1 pm not being included in clause 2? Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I am pleased to respond to the Bill for the Opposition. The Bill has Greg Hands: Actually, I will have breaking news. I only emerged within the last couple of days, so I would think that the Welsh Government have given legislative like to thank the Minister for his efforts to work consent to the Bill this morning. Secondly, we have very co-operatively with us on it and for the virtual meeting good and constructive engagement with the Welsh that he had with me and the shadow International Government, particularly with Baroness Eluned Morgan Trade Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for in the other place. I might add that we did not have that Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry). I constructive engagement actually in the other place, but would also like to thank the Chancellor of the Duchy via Zoom. We have had very constructive engagement of Lancaster for his office’s liaison with regard to the with the Welsh Government to ensure that we have the legislation. ability to work together to manage these aspects. Trade The Government are bringing forward this legislation is obviously a reserved power, but it has an impact on at some haste, not out of choice, but out of necessity. devolved competences. For example, the management They need these clauses on the statute book by the end of highways around ports is firmly in an area of devolved of the transition period to prevent disruption and to competence, so making sure that the two Governments best tackle any relevant issues. This, of course, was never can work together is extremely important. meant to be a Bill, and it may not last on the statute During the passage of the Trade Bill, we have undertaken book for more than a few weeks. These clauses belong a significant programme of ministerial and official-level in the Trade Bill, which is still in the other place, and it engagement with the devolved Administrations. That is simply because the Government have run out of time has enabled us to respond to requests, including those that they are shoving them through as a stand-alone related to data-sharing gateways, to assist them with Bill. This has certain echoes of the negotiations on our their devolved functions. As the Trade (Disclosure of future relationship with the European Union, which are Information) Bill replicates clauses in the Trade Bill, running a little too close to the wire too. 315 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 316 Bill Bill [Paul Blomfield] have proper scrutinyof the very manyexcellent amendments being tabled in the other place. I look forward to that We welcome preparedness for the end of the transition commitment being made as we debate this Bill this period, and we support this effort to minimise disruption afternoon. and allow data sharing between HMRC and other bodies, such as local councils and resilience forums. 3.7 pm However, this is another case of the Government pulling together a last-minute attempt to paper over the cracks Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): It is that they have created by their failure to conduct the a pleasure to rise in support of this Bill. When I saw that negotiations within a suitable timescale or, indeed, to we had six hours to debate this Bill and only 10 speakers meet any one of the deadlines—I think there have been down to speak, I thought that at last I might have just five—that the Prime Minister has set for their conclusion. enough time to begin to outline some of my thoughts The Minister’s letter to MPs on the Bill tells us: on this particular measure. “The backup vehicle for these clauses would have been the Behind that, there is a serious point, as we enter the legislation to implement any deal, but without a clear outcome Christmas and new year period: too often this year there regarding trade negotiations with the EU, we are doing the has been very little time for anyone making a speech in responsible thing by putting forward standalone legislation to thisHouse.Wearefrequentlylimitedtotwoorthreeminutes, ensure clarity at the end of the year”. and not all of us are, as Lincoln, able to summarise our No “clear outcome” is a mild way of describing the thoughts in 272 words or less. If it is possible for you, current chaos, and let us be clear: the responsibility for Mr Deputy Speaker, to talk to the Speaker to see whether that lies with the Prime Minister. there are ways of amending that in the new year, it would be a very nice new year’s resolution. The Trade Bill, of which clauses 8 to 10 more or less make up the Bill in front of us, was first brought to the While I am in that spirit, perhaps I may address a House in 2017—more than three years ago. Since then, comment to the Minister. Frequently this year, and it has been reborn, it has been amended and it has been maybe for good purpose, the Government have come scrambled into some quick fixes. The Opposition would forward with measures a day or two ahead of their like the Trade Bill to make its way on to the statute being placed before this House, and they have then gone book before it reaches another anniversary; we are through the House in a single day. For minor measures looking forward to seeing it back, and I will come on to such as this one, there is very little to be concerned that point. about, if questions are answered adequately by the Minister,as I am sure they will be.However,the Coronavirus Essentially, the Trade Bill was written to provide for Act 2020, and any potential free trade agreement with accession to the World Trade Organisation’s agreement the EU, are very significant measures to be passed in a on Government procurement, the rolling over of trade single day, and I am not sure the governance of this agreements with non-EU countries prior to 31 December, country is fully served by such oblique reference to the the creation of a UK Trade Remedies Authority and legislature. this data-sharing provision for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. The Minister will recognise that the Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): The hon. Gentleman Government have achieved the first three on that list by stood last year and was elected, as were the majority of various means, and the fourth with this Bill. Members of this House, on a manifesto that included However, we are concerned that that might leave the an unconditional guarantee of a free trade agreement Trade Bill itself in the long grass—as the Minister with Europe. Do his comments of a few moments ago knows; we have talked about this informally—allowing indicate that he now is not convinced that a free trade the Government to avoid some of the commitments agreement with Europe is the best way forward? they have now made, as contained in the Trade Bill after the excellent work in the other place. Principally, those Richard Fuller: No, I have full faith in my commitments amendments enshrine protections for the national health in the manifesto and in the election, and full confidence service and social care in any trade deals, ensure that in the Prime Minister. I only wish that the separatists trade deals secured take into account the human rights from the Scottish National party would have the same record of our trading partners—something that is clearly full confidence in their words ahead of any referendum of great concern to the House, as evidenced by the urgent on their future, but that is not for today. questionearliertoday—andincreaseparliamentaryoversight I want to press the Minister on some issues largely to by providing improved scrutiny mechanisms. do with information. I think he has mentioned some of Those amendments are welcomed by the Opposition them, but it would be reassuring to have them more and, I am sure, by the Government too. We look forward fully expanded upon, because information is the currency to debating them when the Trade Bill returns, so I invite of modern wealth creation in many instances, and it is the Minister to commit to concluding the passage of the certainly a source of competitive advantage. Trade Bill by the end of January and allowing the I am not clear—perhaps the Minister could clarify sunset provisions in clause 4 of this Bill to take effect by this for me—to what extent the permissions in the Bill then. That will replace this Bill and allow the Trade Bill’s relate to sharing information solely within the borders clauses to supersede it. and boundaries of the United Kingdom, and to what The Trade Bill is on Report in the other place now, extent any such information will be shared with third and I think that will continue in the first week of parties.What reassurance can the Minister provide that the January, so we feel that is an appropriate target and a scope and format of data sharing, either within Ministries deadline that the Government might make this time. I or externally, will not result in a loss of competitive ask the Minister to commit to that. That commitment advantage to an individual business, an industry sector would ensure that we do not lose the Bill and that we or the nation state? 317 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 318 Bill Bill It would be helpful to have a little more clarity from this Bill, will he provide reassurance that nothing in this the Minister on the scope of data. He explained that it Bill will do anything to undermine the measures under- is to do with trade, but that is a very wide-ranging remit. pinning standards on agricultural products and trade in He said that it is to do only with data that is currently agricultural products? held by public bodies, but public bodies in this country I shall give up my ambition to fill six hours and retire, hold almost every piece of data imaginable on us as not hurt but early. I commend the Bill to the House. individuals and on corporations and business activity. Perhaps he cannot say explicitly what will be included, but what sorts of things might be included? Perhaps he 3.15 pm could also explain what might be excluded. Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Minister, Will the Minister clarify that no demands will be made perfectly reasonably, described the Bill as, in essence, for new data disclosures, essentially protecting people providing the legal basis upon which information can from other burdens—additional data that may be required be disclosed and shared between public authorities to —in this short period? If there may be demands for ensure that Ministers and those organisations can fulfil additional data disclosure, what might they be? their obligations in terms of trade functions.That is perfectly What provisions are there for the anonymity of data, reasonable—nothing wrong with that. particularly in relation to the sharing of data with other Indeed, the explanatory notes make it very clear that nation states? Even if the data is at commodity level, we need such a measure in any event, whether we have a that may be a concern. Some sectors have one or two deal—a good deal or a bad deal—or no deal in barely main UK providers, so just because the data is at the two weeks’ time, so this is absolutely necessary. I share level of a standard industrial classification code does the shadow Minister’s concern that the Trade Bill was not necessarily mean that it does not disclose information not completed in its entirety. It is incomplete, and that may be relevant to a particular competitor. therefore we have to introduce a measure that may have I think the Minister was clear about the oversight of a very short shelf life indeed. data rules in the case of a breach, saying that existing I have one question on Second Reading, in relation to legislation will be covered. If that is not correct, perhaps clause 1. The Minister rightly referred to the devolved he could advise us. Administrations potentially being added to the list of A particular bugbear of mine is HMRC’s influence public authorities in clause 2, but clause 1(1)(b) already over the Government, which is undue in many respects says that the Revenue may disclose information at the moment. Can the Minister assure me that the “facilitating the exercise by a devolved authority of the authority’s provisions of clause 2(4) will specifically restrict HMRC functions relating to trade”. from cross-sharing data with other elements of its work, That is already on the face of the Bill, so it does not most explicitly to do with the taxation of enterprises in need to be added in relation to the Revenue’s ability to the UK? disclose. I was interested to read that clause 2(11) defines a The Minister will be aware of the Scottish Government’s public authority as priorities in this regard. Ivan McKee’s letter to him on “an authority exercising functions of a public nature,” 12 August said: which did not seem to take me very far at all. Will the “Our priority is getting timely and comprehensive access to the Minister advise whether the phrase “a public nature” is HMRC’s trade microdata, which sits behind the HMRC’s overseas a defined term in law? If it is not, will he explain what it trade statistics and regional trade statistics covering both exports and imports. This company-level data contains variables, such as: might mean? Does it include, for example, regulatory company reference number, date, flow, type, value of trade, quantity agencies, private organisations that are fulfilling public of trade, weight, commodity code, country of origin, destination, contracts, or organisations that are recipients of public port of entry, dispatch, etc. These variables will allow the Scottish moneys, all of which one could claim are “exercising Government to analyse Scottish trade over time, sector, product functions of a public nature”? It would be helpful to get and destination at a more detailed level than is currently published some scoping of what is included here. by the HMRC.” The Opposition spokesman and the hon. Member for That is a statement of fact, but given that clause 1(1) Glenrothes (Peter Grant) referred to a trade deal with permits HMRC to disclose information connected to a the EU. There has been some press speculation—it devolved Administration to allow them to fulfil their is just speculation—that the European Union, in its obligations in relation to trade, can I just check with the discussions, has proposed pre-emptive tariff regimes Minister—I am sure this is correct, but I would be happy as part of its approach to the UK. Can the Minister to have it on record—that this is not simply permissive, reassure me that no provisions of the Bill would require but that it is actually the Government’s intention to information to be disclosed to the European Union as provide the data from the Revenue, as provided for by part of a negotiation of any pre-emptive tariff regime in the Bill, to allow the Scottish Government to do accurate the intervening period? I think that is highly unlikely, work in relation to their trade functions? I am sure that but because there has been some speculation, it would is the case, but it would be very helpful to have it on the be useful to have clarification. record. When it comes to agricultural products—the Opposition In case the Minister thinks he is going to get off with spokesman mentioned this, but I emphasise it in particular just that, it is worth pointing out that the letter of —many people who are farming producers or who are 12 August also says: interested in food standards are very reassured by the “That does not mean we support the UK Government’s proposed Minister’s amendments to the Bill, both in this place trade policy more generally.” and in the other place, regarding food standards. As In terms of our demand for more parliamentary scrutiny, many farmers will be looking particularly intently at and so on, that is perfectly reasonable. 319 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 320 Bill Bill [Stewart Hosie] financial statement immediately before lockdown. The reason for that is that I believe it is incumbent on all of The Minister described the expedited timetable for us not to be here unless we absolutely have to. I greatly this Bill, and my goodness, it is seriously expedited—just regret the fact that the Government have not brought one day. Let me just gently say to him that, given that forward proposals to reactivate the full remote participation the explanatory notes said that we are going to need a in debates that we had for a short time earlier in the measure like this in any event, if we had not wasted time year. on the pointless, meaningless, futile United Kingdom Obviously I did not travel down here to take part in Internal Market Bill, whose avowed purpose is to break this debate, because we did not know that it was taking international law and engage in a power grab from place. I did so because of two important pieces of devolved Administrations, we might perhaps have had secondary legislation on the Order Paper that are no time to have a rather less expedited look at this, including longer there. I was on the train yesterday morning on questions on access to and sharing of data, and where my way down especially to speak on those two items and who might have access to it. That might be quite when I got an email saying that they had been pulled difficult—although frankly, given how few people there and asking if I would mind contributing for the SNP on are here, not so difficult—in the timetable that we have this one. Rather than have a situation where the taxpayer available. was paying for me to travel from Fife, have a couple of I have no problem with supporting this Bill on Second nights in London, and then go back up again when I did Reading. There is one cause of concern that we will raise not need to be here at all, I was tempted to make sure in Committee—and hopefully the Minister can provide that they got their money’s worth, and every penny of good, strong answers to it—but, as it stands, we certainly it, by taking up the full three hours that is allocated to have no intention of opposing, at this stage, the legal basis this Second Reading debate. However, my reading of on which to share information. the mood music is that that would not endear me to anybody here or to anybody else, so I will not do it. 3.20 pm That trivial example of the impact that this has had Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): I echo on my planning for today is a tiny fraction of the bigger much of what the Labour and SNP spokespeople have picture. The only reason this Bill has had to come said. There is little that can be added, certainly with forward at all just now, and the reason it is having to be the Bill being brought forward in the manner that it is brought forward in such a hurry, is that the Government today and the time that we have. That is indicative of do not have control of the process. A process that was the shambles of the Government’s handling of our exit supposed to be about Parliament taking back control is from the EU and the end of the transition period. I am now seeing Parliament having its business chopped and not sure how the Government expect industry and changed at a few hours’ notice. At the moment, the business to be prepared for 1 January when this expedited hundreds of people who work here—not just MPs but legislation illustrates just how unprepared the Government staff of the House of Commons—do not know whether themselves appear to be for the end of the transition they will have to come to work next week. The Prime period. Minister wanted to ensure that everybody had certainty The Liberal Democrat party and I agree that we do as to the rules about visiting loved ones at Christmas, need, upon leaving the EU, legislation to make trade but Members and staff of the House of Commons do deals with other countries, but perhaps we are in this not know for certain whether they will have to be at situation because many of us do not agree that the work at the start of that period. Parliament is not in Trade Bill—the original Trade Bill—is the way to do it. control of the process, and the Government are not in It has failed on several counts, but particularly in setting control of the process, and it is difficult to see whether out proper procedures for parliamentary consultation, anyone is in control of the process. scrutiny and approval of future international trade I fully understand that we now need to get this agreements. legislation through in a hurry. I was unhappy about This Bill is, as the Minister said, necessary in order to some details of the coronavirus legislation, which the allow our authorities to function properly on 1 January. hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard However, if the Government expect, understandably, Fuller) mentioned earlier, but I fully understood the this place to recognise the need for flexibility to cope need to get it on the statute book as quickly as possible. with this lack of preparedness, surely businesses and The emergency we face now is not of the same type; this companies across the country should be able to expect a emergency is entirely of the Government’s making. It is similar understanding. I appeal to the Government to not the fault of those who voted in the referendum four recognise, and urge the Minister to take back to his and a half years ago. Those who voted to leave had a colleagues, the need for an adjustment period for businesses reasonable right to expect that the Government would to implement change, because if we are going to accept have delivered on their wishes before the last minute, as that this is a difficult period, as it is because of the lack is happening now. Not only are the Government not of the deal on which we are still waiting for word, then delivering on time; they are not delivering at all. They surely business can demand the same sort of understanding promised to deliver a free trade agreement with Europe— that the Government are asking of the House. that was in the manifesto and was mentioned several times—but they have not delivered that. 3.22 pm The explanatory notes to the Bill indicate that parts Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): I am very pleased to of it would have been needed even if we had that free be able to speak in this Second Reading debate. This is trade agreement with the European Union, but the vast actually the first time I have spoken in the Chamber majority of it would not have been, and we certainly since I contributed to the debate on the Chancellor’s would not have been under this exceptional time pressure 321 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 322 Bill Bill if the process had been managed by a Government who substance of the trade deal with Europe. Mr Deputy were competent had some idea of where they wanted to Speaker, if this is an oven-ready deal, please remind me get to, instead of being continually obsessed with where never to take up an invitation to Christmas dinner with they were trying to get away from. the Minister, because clearly this is just not good enough. As the Minister said, and as others have alluded to, Today, after three long years and repeated promises the Bill simply extracts a few clauses from a Bill that has that things would be sewn up by now, the Trade Bill has already been through a detailed scrutiny process, and yet to pass into law. This House has yet to discuss the that eases the concern a bit, but the wider problem is amendments from the other place, and the Government still there. What other emergency legislation will the have yet to guarantee that in any future deal we will not Government have to bring through, possibly before see regression on our environmental, food, animal welfare 31 December, if not very early in the new year, that we and agricultural standards. There have been no guarantees do not know about and that has not been through the on protections for our NHS, no guarantees on full full scrutiny process as part of another piece of legislation? parliamentary scrutiny of any future trade deals and no This process is supposed to be about Parliament taking guarantee that human rights will remain enshrined in back control, but I have never seen so much legislation our future trading relationships across the globe. having to be rushed through Parliament, with little time Instead, just two weeks before the end of the transition for scrutiny and with some of that legislation possibly period, we are discussing a non-controversial, technical having a profound effect on the lives of people and on proposal, which allows HMRC to share data with other the way the economy gets back on its feet when the covid bodies. People with an eye on this Chamber would be pandemic is finally brought under control. forgiven for thinking that Ministers are making this up As for the detailed content of the Bill, my hon. as they go along. Either that or they are using this Friend the Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), quick-fix, rushed legislation to kick the Trade Bill into who speaks from the Front Bench, referred to some of the long grass and avoid tackling the amendments from the issues. I think the Minister gave assurances in his the other place on protecting the NHS, parliamentary opening comments that all the requests the Scottish scrutiny and human rights. I hope that is not the case. Government made in relation to this Bill and the main What assurances can the Government give that the Trade Bill have been picked up. In effect, this Bill picks Trade Bill will not be unduly delayed and kicked down up parts of the Trade Bill as amended with the agreement the road, following this Bill? What assurances can the of the Scottish Government. As my hon. Friend mentioned, Minister give me that they will uphold any amendments the fact that the negotiation of international trade on protecting the NHS and social care in trade deals? If, treaties is reserved to Westminster does not mean that as Ministers claim, this Bill is not a replacement for the the devolved Administrations have little or no responsibility wider Trade Bill, when can we expect that Bill back in for making trade work for their countries,their communities the Commons? and their businesses. A lot of the decisions taken by the United Kingdom in the negotiation of trade agreements Enough of the spin and delay. Businesses are crying can be made to work only with the full involvement of out for clarity on arrangements after the transition period. the devolved Administrations. The Government must commit to the full passage and implementation of the Trade Bill, with full consideration I understand that there have been discussions—I do of the amendments, support for human rights, and not know whether at Minister level, officer level or both protections for our NHS and environmental, agricultural, —over the past few days about this Bill, and I would food and animal welfare standards. certainly commend that if it has taken place, but there needs to be much closer and much more co-operative 3.32 pm working across the four nations than there has been until now on Brexit. Otherwise, we will find that legislation Paul Blomfield: With the leave of the House, I shall and trade agreements that are passed purely at the will briefly respond to the debate on behalf of the Opposition. of Government Ministers in London will have little I thank hon. Members for their contributions. The relevance, or sometimes a negative effect, for Governments, hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Administrations and citizens in other parts of the United Fuller) disappointed me: I was so looking forward to Kingdom. him utilising the six hours. However, he made important When we, presumably, agree to the Bill later, I hope pointsaboutscrutiny,additionaldatadisclosures,anonymity that those comments will be borne in mind. I would also of data, cross-sharing within HMRC, and food and appreciate it if the Minister could tell us in his closing agricultural standards, to which I shall return. remarks what other emergency legislation he is aware of The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), that the Government expect to bring before the House speaking on behalf of the SNP, was right to highlight between now and 31 December. the time wasted, and the trust and confidence in this country consequently eroded, by the consideration of 3.29 pm aspects of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill. Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab): Clearly, this is The hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) a significant but quite straightforward technical Bill, as made a good point when she asked how businesses can the Minister set out. However, last year the Government be prepared for our departure from the transition when led people to believe that they had a deal ready to go. the Government themselves clearly are not. They said we were all set to sever ties with Europe and The hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) made go our own way. In the last few weeks, we have heard an important point about our parliamentary proceedings Ministers spinning the airwaves, desperately trying to during the pandemic, which the Opposition hope the explain that the oven-ready deal they boasted about Government will reconsider. He was more modest than referred only to the withdrawal agreement and not the the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire: he was 323 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 324 Bill Bill [Paul Blomfield] In the explanatory notes to the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill, the Government state: aimingforonlythreehours.Again,however,hedisappointed “The Cabinet Office is establishing the Border Operations us by not taking them. However, he made the important Centre to manage and mitigate potential disruption caused by the point that the Government are not in control. The new border requirements at the crucial moment of transition. repercussions of that are felt not simply in this House, Without the data sharing clauses, Cabinet Office will be limited in but by businesses and on jobs across the country. the data it can receive from other departments, which will significantly hamper its ability to provide the single version of truth for flow of My hon. Friend and constituency neighbour the Member goods through the border, including a commodity level view of for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake) made some important flow across the border (such as medicines and food supply).” points, to which I will return, about the maintenance of Does the Minister accept that, without the deal promised protections and scrutiny. by the Prime Minister—the oven-ready deal for which This Bill is about the management of trading relationships the nation voted last December—which will deliver and allowing that to happen as smoothly as possible. barrier-free and tariff-free trade, the potential disruption On those future relationships, I hope the Minister will will be far worse? We are two weeks from the end of the agree that the amendments made to the Trade Bill in the transition period, but this Bill will not provide a silver other place strengthen it and that any delay in its continued bullet for managing trade smoothly after 31 December. passage would not be appropriate.The Labour amendment It is the deal that the Prime Minister promised a year to the Trade Bill on the first day of Report, which ago and signed up to in the political declaration at the protects the NHS and social care from trade deals, is start of this year that will deliver clearly essential. Now the US President-elect has been “no tariffs, fees, charges or quantitative restrictions across all confirmed, many may feel there may be some reduction sectors”, in concern about that, but it remains of paramount safeguard importance that our public services are protected. “workers’ rights, consumer and environmental protection”, The urgent question that we considered before we keep people safe with a moved to the Bill was on the appalling treatment of the “broad, comprehensive and balanced security partnership” Uyghur people. It demonstrates the serious concern and indeed ensure the protection of the Good Friday about human rights abuses across the world that is felt agreement through the proper implementation of the on both sides of the House. It is vital that our trade Northern Ireland protocol. That is where the Government’s deals recognise that, and in the other place colleagues focus should be right now, and should have been to have amended the Bill to require trade negotiations to ensure that we would have, as the hon. Member for be preceded by an assessment of the other country’shuman North East Bedfordshire said, the opportunity to debate rights record. That undeniably sensible and responsible in full the provisions of any agreement reached in good check and balance is backed up by another check, time, and to conclude that process to enable businesses which means that, before any deal is ratified, Ministers to be ready. will be obliged to show that it will comply with the UK’s human rights obligations. Finally, the Government would 3.39 pm produce an annual report on compliance with rights laws by trading partners, and all these would be presented Greg Hands: To respond to what I think has been a to the relevant committees in the Commons and the Lords, very constructive debate on Second Reading of this with the possibility that the courts could be used to Bill, can I first welcome the tone that has been set? The challenge trade deals that breached rights standards. hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) and his neighbour—I think she must be his neighbour—the Just last night in the other place, the Trade Bill was hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake), made amended to improve the accountability of the similar points about the passage of the Bill. I have to Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, providing say that nobody, I think, would be more pleased than for parliamentary scrutiny, which would much improve I to see the Trade Bill finally reach Royal Assent, as the process. We have to accept that CRaG is wholly during my previous time at the Department I was here inadequate, as it leaves whether there is a debate and at the Dispatch Box introducing that Bill in the spring vote entirely in the Government’s gift. Such a debate of 2017. I am told that the overall passage of the Trade and vote in Parliament happen only after the agreement Bill then and now has involved some 130 hours of scrutiny is signed. There is no scrutiny of negotiating objectives and debate. The hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter or texts during negotiations. Grant), who did preface his remarks by saying he had This is done far better in other countries. We talk not been here to debate for some time, and I understand often about being “world-leading” in circumstances his reasons for that, may have implied there had been where that transparently does not apply. In this context insufficient scrutiny of some of these measures. I can we must recognise that other countries conduct scrutiny reassure him that there has been very extensive scrutiny. of trade deals much better. For example, in the US scrutiny But I do say a couple of things. involves unions, businesses and civil society. The amendments made in the other place at least allow for Peter Grant: I am grateful to the Minister for giving debate through which those points can be raised and way. Could I just correct his understanding of what I the voices of those affected can be heard. So this Bill said? I made it perfectly clear that I appreciated that this must pass, but there are wider questions about scrutiny Bill in another way has had significant scrutiny. My and trade policy across the Trade Bill that require attention. concern is that there might be other emergency legislation I look forward to the Minister’s assurance that that will on its way through the pipeline that we will not have happen early in the new year, and that we can look for time to give sufficient scrutiny. That was the point I the Bill being concluded by the end of January. was making. 325 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 326 Bill Bill Greg Hands: I appreciate the hon. Member’sclarification. Box a few times, the Scottish National party has not It certainly is not my job to outline whatever other supported a single trade agreement proposed either here legislation may be out there. That would be entirely a or in Brussels. matter for the Leader of the House of Commons, who, I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for North as we know, made a statement on other legislation earlier East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) that these are not this week. new measures in any sense. They are taken directly from The Member speaking for the Opposition, the hon. the Trade Bill. The HMRC powers were published in Member for Sheffield Central, says that he supports the 2017. The further powers were published in July on Bill, he supports the continuity agreements, he supports Report. We are introducing this legislation purely because its procurement measures, he supports the trade defences, the Trade Bill probably will not get Royal Assent before he supports the data sharing—but he has used every 31 December. available opportunity to vote against the Bill. He voted I reassure my hon. Friend that there are safeguards against it on Second Reading, he voted against it on on the data. It is data that is already collected. There is Third Reading and it has been voted against at every no new disclosure of data. Specific named authorities available opportunity by the official Opposition and by are discretionary to support a Government Minister’s the Scottish National party as well. He says that the function in relation to trade. In terms of such things as concern is that we might kick the Trade Bill into the long anonymity, the existing restrictions around the General grass. No, we very much want the Trade Bill to get Royal Data Protection Regulation and the UK Data Protection Assent as soon as possible.It has very important provisions Act 1998 kick in. On taxation, there are already strong in it, such as allowing domestic law to remain amendable measures in place to protect the data of taxpayers. The for continuity trade agreements and the Trade Remedies Bill is clear that data can be shared only where disclosure Authority. It is a very important piece of legislation. would support functions related to trade. It could not be disclosed for any other purposes. But I did welcome the hon. Member’s commitment to My hon. Friend also asked about a private company conclude the Trade Bill by the end of January. I see the performing a function on behalf of a public authority. current Government Deputy Chief Whip here—the That is possible, but it would operate under the same Treasurer of Her Majesty’s Household, my hon. Friend restrictions and the discretionary powers would apply— the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew). As a former GDPR and so on. He asked me for a Dispatch Box Government Deputy Chief Whip, I and, as a former commitment on agriculture and food standards. Our Chief Whip of the Opposition, Madam Deputy Speaker, commitment is absolute. The commitment that he and I you will know that that is not entirely in the hands of made individually and collectively in our general election the Government and that, actually, it is very much as manifesto this time a year ago continues as well. well in the hands of the whole of Parliament. But I will take that as a submission to the usual channels that the The hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine official Opposition want the Trade Bill to achieve Royal Jardine) called for an adjustment period, which I think Assent by 31 January, which is what the hon. Member is a new term for a transition period. She is calling for a for Sheffield Central said. I will take that as a submission transition period from the transition period, which of the Opposition’s intent—good intent—to get it through would increase uncertainty. The UK is leaving the single as quickly as possible. market and the customs union on 1 January, and an indeterminate postponement of that would, by definition, The hon. Member says he was against CRaG, but I only increase uncertainty. remind him that it was the last Labour Government who introduced CRaG. His boss, the right hon. Member Stewart Hosie: Will the Minister give way? for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), actually voted for CRaG.He also propagated this deliberate Greg Hands: I am going to finish now. The purpose confusion about the oven-ready deal. It is quite clear of the Bill is simple: it allows the Government to use that that referred to the withdrawal agreement that the data that they already hold, in order to ensure the smooth House of Commons voted on a year ago. I would just flow of traffic, goods and people across the UK’s borders ask him: is he going to support the further trade deal, if at the end of the transition period. The Bill will support there is one, with the European Union? We have heard better services by permitting data on the flow of silence from the official Opposition on that. international trade to be shared and analysed. The Bill does not create any new powers, but brings forward To turn to the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart critical powers that are needed from the end of the Hosie), who also had a very constructive tone, in areas transition period to ensure that the Government and of devolved competence we have been clear. I am repeating public bodies can use the information that they already the same commitments made at the Dispatch Box during collect. the passage of the Trade Bill, including in the Committee We have had a good debate, carried out in an excellent stage of the Trade Bill, that he remarked on at the time spirit, and I thank all Members for their contributions. and he will remember well. I am making those same My thanks also go to the Government Opposition Whips, commitments today. Overall, we wish to work with the of course, who have ensured that the Second Reading devolved Administrations, particularly in areas of devolved has run effectively—particularly under your direction, competence, where they have a clear role, such as the Madam Deputy Speaker. management of highways, around ports and other things that relate to facilitating trade. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): The hon. Member added, notwithstanding that, that That will be it. he did not want me to think this was a sudden conversion, Question put and agreed to. with him agreeing with the Government trade policy— Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed definitely not. As I have pointed out from the Dispatch to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day). 327 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 328 Bill Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill BPDG has established a border operations centre to monitor and manage flow at the end of the transition Considered in Committee (Order, this day) period and to support relevant authorities to better manage border controls and ensure that frictions to the [DAME ROSIE WINTERTON in the Chair] flow of trade are minimised and negative impacts are mitigated. The border operations centre will use data The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame provided by HMRC, alongside other Departments and Rosie Winterton): Before I ask the Clerk to read the title public bodies, so that it can analyse and promote efficiencies of the Bill, I should explain that in these exceptional in the flow of traffic in goods and services in and out of circumstances, although the Chair of the Committee the United Kingdom. Access to HMRC data is crucial would normally sit in the Clerk’s chair, in order to to developing this detailed commodity-level view of the comply with social distancing requirements I will remain flow of goods at the border. in the Speaker’s Chair. However, I will be carrying out the role not of Deputy Speaker but Chair of the Committee. Additionally, the clause will facilitate the sharing of We should be addressed as Chairs of the Committee, information with other organisations, such as the World rather than as Deputy Speakers. Trade Organisation and the World Customs Organisation, both of which the UK will be obligated to share data with as part of our international obligations for the Clause 1 purposes of trade. This is a necessary clause to ensure continuity as we come to the end of the transition TRADE FUNCTIONS: DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION BY period, as it will enable the efficient use of HMRC data HMRC to support the Cabinet Office’srole in minimising temporary Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the disruption at the border that may result from our new Bill. trading relationship with the EU and enable the sharing of data with international organisations where necessary. TheFirstDeputyChairman:Withthisitwillbeconvenient to discuss the following: Measures have been included in the Bill to ensure the Amendment 1, in clause 2, page 3, line 3, leave out proper handling of the data and to safeguard and subsection (7). protect its use, with penalties for unauthorised disclosure, Clause 2 stand part. onward sharing or use. Moreover, Departments will comply with requirements of data protection legislation, Clauses 3 to 6 stand part. including the general data protection regulation, when handling any personal data shared under this gateway, 3.49 pm where it is deemed proportionate and necessary to do The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands): Thank so. This clause is essential for the Cabinet Office and you, Dame Rosie, if I have the nomenclature correct. As other bodies to ensure the continued smooth flow of we come to the end of the transition period, it is goods. important that the Government make the best use of the information that they already hold to minimise any Moving on to clause 2, alongside HMRC, to which disruption that mayresult from the new border requirements clause 1 applies, more than 20 Departments and public that will apply irrespective of the nature of our trading bodies have either operational or policy responsibilities relationship with the EU. More specifically, it is important relating to the border, using over 100 IT systems between that the Government use that information to develop a them. These Departments and public bodies collect and detailed picture of the flow of goods and people at key hold numerous types of information related to trade. locations at the border. That will inform decision making However,as with HMRC, this information could typically right across Government, leading to better outcomes be used only for very specific purposes, with statutory for businesses and citizens. restrictions on the sharing of information with other As Members will be aware, the clauses in the Bill have Departments. These restrictions inhibit the Government been scrutinised previously by the House during the identifying and utilising the full potential of their passage of the Trade Bill. Members may recall that a information to support trade policy and the flow of key source of information within Government relating goods and services through the border. The restrictions to both trade and border management is HMRC, which also lead to inefficiencies, including duplicative requests has significant responsibilities in relation to the movement to industry to share data. of goods across the border. HMRC has specific statutory The clause fixes that problem and will allow specified restrictions in relation to the sharing of information public bodies and Departments to share data where it that it holds and, in the absence of an express legal supports the exercise of a Minister of the Crown’s gateway to permit sharing, the Government cannot make functions relating to trade. By combining and analysing use of this data effectively. specific border data, the Government and the Cabinet The clause has therefore been introduced to allow Office, in particular, will be able to develop insights and HMRC to share the data that it holds with any other analysis to support the Government as a whole to public or private body that carries out a public function deliver better services. This will ensure that goods and related to trade for the purposes of that function. This trade to continue to flow when the UK becomes an power enables HMRC and bodies working with or on independent trading nation at the end of the transition behalf of HMRC to share data with Departments, period. As with clause 1, this clause does not, however, including, for example, the Cabinet Office, which, through grant any additional data collection powers to the the border and protocol delivery group, is leading Government. Instead, it seeks to create a discretionary Government preparedness for border readiness at the gateway to enable more effective sharing of data that end of the transition period. Departments and public bodies already hold. 329 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 330 Bill Bill Moving to clause 3, the Government rightly take the “enactment”, “the investigatory powers legislation” and safeguarding of information and personally identifiable “Minister of the Crown”. The interpretations are intended information, in particular, very seriously. As I hope I to ensure that the reader of the Bill has clarity in respect made clear in introducing clauses 1 and 2, the ability to of and understands the use of those terms in the Bill. share data under both gateways is discretionary.Individual Finally, Clause 6 sets out the territorial extent of the Departments and public authorities providing data will legislation, when it will come into force and its short need to be satisfied that data sharing is necessary to title. Subsection (1) sets out the territorial extent of the support functions relating to trade prior to sharing the provisions: data. Furthermore, as I mentioned when introducing clauses 1 and 2, any data shared by the data-sharing “This Act extends to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern gateway that is being established will have to comply Ireland.” with data protection legislation, including the general This is a standard clause in any Bill to specify the extent data protection regulation and its principles, covering of the its measures. necessity, proportionality and minimisation to protect I note that the Government have worked closely with the rights of individuals. the devolved Administrations on these provisions as Clause 3 provides an additional safeguard on top of part of work on the Trade Bill, to ensure that the data- all the others by creating a criminal offence if information sharing gateways can also assist them with their devolved relating to a person’s identity, or information from functions—I have already mentioned traffic management which a person’s identity might be deduced, is shared in around ports as a classic case of where a devolved contravention of clause 2. I hope that will provide Administration have a legitimate and correct interest in further assurance, if it is required, that the data shared ensuring that data will flow and therefore that trade through the gateway will be handled appropriately. flows. In that spirit of working closely together, the Government made two commitments to the devolved Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Administrations in relation to data sharing under clause 9 (Ind): I am interested in clause 3. To whom are the of the Trade Bill when it was in Committee in the Lords, Government concerned that the information might be and I will repeat them today. First, the data shared shared inappropriately? Who would be the recipients of under clause 9 of that Bill will be used by the border that information? operations centre and the Cabinet Office to develop strategic insights. The Cabinet Office is committed to Greg Hands: I think the hon. Gentleman’s question sharing strategic analysis related to the flow of data where was about what kind of people would be inappropriate; it will support the more effective management of flow it would be people to whom the legislation will not through the border. Cabinet Office officials will continue apply. We are talking about a discretionary power to to work closely with counterparts in the devolved share data to assist a Minister in functions relating to Administrations to ensure that relevant analysis and trade. In addition, the criminal power, as I understand information can be shared to support devolved functions it, is in the Bill specifically to prevent any individual relating to trade and management of the border. Secondly, person’s identity from becoming either known directly the UK Government commit to consulting the devolved or deduced through the data that has been produced. Administrations before any devolved authorities are Clause 3 puts in place an additional power to prevent added to or removed from the list of specified authorities that data from becoming known. I do not really want to that can share data under clause 9 of the Trade Bill. speculate, Dame Rosie, but I can imagine a whole series I turn to the remaining subsections of clause 6. of people and bodies that might have inappropriate Clause 6(2) of the Trade (Disclosure of Information) access to an individual’s data as they pass through a Bill provides for the Bill to come into force on the day of border. I think we can all imagine the sort of people Royal Assent. Clause 6(3) simply provides that the Bill, who may not have either your, mine or the Government’s once enacted, will be cited as the Trade (Disclosure of best interests, or the interests of international trade, at Information) Act 2020. I hope that the House agrees heart. that clause 6, and therefore all six clauses, should stand Clause 4 contains the sunset elements of this Bill. As part of the Bill. the House will be aware, the Trade Bill is currently passing through the other place and is now unlikely to 4 pm receive Royal Assent before the end of the transition period. As I hope I made clear in introducing clauses 1 Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): We recognise and 2, it is essential that we are able to provide a that at present there are limited circumstances in which gateway to enable the sharing of trade-related data that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs can disclose the Cabinet Office requires before the end of this period information, such as when consent has been given by a as it takes on border-monitoring functions. To ensure taxpayer or when compelled to do so to comply with a that we can do that in time, the Bill replicates clauses 8 court order. The Bill clearly continues that tight framing to 10 of the Trade Bill, which has been referred to at over the protection of information. least twice so far. Clause 4 is therefore required to I have a few questions for the Minister, but I shall facilitate the expiry of clauses 1 to 3 of this Bill if first comment on amendment 1. Although it is clear similar clauses are passed in the Trade Bill, and will that amendment 1 aims to make watertight clause 2(8)—and thereby ensure that the UK statute book is kept in good I do understand the concerns behind that—Labour is working order. satisfied that subsection (8) offers sufficient protection. Clause 5 sets out the interpretation of key terms for However, I hope that the Minister can expand on that the purposes of the Bill. Specifically, it provides and explain what kind of instances subsection (7) might interpretation of the terms “the data protection legislation”, cover so that we can be fully assured on that point. 331 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 332 Bill Bill [Paul Blomfield] regard to the exclusion of protection of legal professional privilege, which in many other circumstances would As we said earlier, this Bill is very much a lift of have applied. The same issue to some extent arises, in clauses 8 to 10 of the Trade Bill, although it diverges terms of the disclosure of information, in clause 2(7) of slightly by widening the protections in clause 2(8), ensuring the Bill. It states: that no disclosures made under this Act would “A disclosure under this section does not breach— (a) any “contravene the data protection legislation, or…be prohibited by obligation of confidence owed by the person disclosing the the investigatory powers legislation”, information, or (b) any other restriction on the disclosure of information (however imposed).” rather than including specific references to the parts of the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 and the Data Protection The explanatory notes make it very clear that Act 2018, as we saw previously. Will the Minister give us “Certain information held by specific public authorities are a reason for that change and let the House know what is subject to constraints on disclosure. To enable sharing of this now in scope that was not previously? information, clause 2(7) provides a general disapplication of these restrictions.” The Bill gives new powers to HMRCto share information with international bodies, local bodies, devolved If I may, I will just remind the Minister what was said Administrations and others for analysis and monitoring. in previous debates on this matter. Legal professional Will the Minister elaborate on the purposes for which privilege and confidentiality are essential to safeguard that might be done, more specifically? Perhaps he could the rule of law and the administration of justice. They also explain the way in which the border operations permit information to be communicated between a centre will use that data to support local authorities, lawyer and client without the fear of it going to a third local resilience forums and other key public services, party without the clear permission of the client. In such as hospitals and clinical commissioning groups, normal circumstances, that includes HMRC. Many UK when transporting key medicines or vaccines during the statutes already give express protection of legal privilege pandemic. and it is vigorously protected by the courts. A little more broadly, I wonder whether the Minister We are in a rather odd position where data can be could give other details about the border operations collected and is required to be collected, and where legal centre and the Government’s preparations for the end professional privilege has been disregarded entirely. We of the transition period. For instance, after the awarding are now in a position where clause 2(7) disregards legal of the port infrastructure fund yesterday, what assessment privilege in terms of the disclosing or sharing of that has he made of the number of ports that consider their information. The Minister may well pray in aid some of allocation of the fund adequate to cover the necessary the limited protections that are offered in clause 2, but if infrastructure changes required by the border operating I run through them I suspect we might conclude they model? As that fund was so significantly over-subscribed, are not quite as strong as the Minister might like to what discussions is the Minister having with the Cabinet think they are. The explanatory notes state: Office to ensure that our borders are fully operational “Clause 2(8) confirms that nothing in this section authorises by 1 January? the disclosure of information which would contravene data protection legislation or which is prohibited under the Investigatory Powers There is another point on which many of my colleagues Act 2016.” and I have pressed Ministers. I do not think that we So far, so good—that is helpful, but very, very narrow. have had the opportunity to press this Minister on it, Others may say that it is only specified public authorities though, so I will give him a chance to answer. Can who can disclose or share information. They are specified he tell us how many customs agents of the 50,000 in clause 2(3) as: the Secretary of State, the Minister for recommended by the Government have now been trained the Cabinet Office, a strategic highways company, or a and recruited? Will he also give us an update on the IT port health authority constituted in a particular way. systems required to process customs and support our However, clause 2(9) states: borders after the transition? Data sharing under the powers of the Bill is clearly welcome, but we also need “AMinister of the Crown may by regulations made by statutory instrument amend this section for the purpose of specifying a the systems that sit alongside it to enable us to minimise public authority in, or removing a public authority from, disruption. subsection (3).” The Bill is needed to allow public bodies to access Therefore, any number of other bodies could be added information about their areas and to prevent disruption. to that list. The other protection one could point to It also contains useful protections regarding data sharing, would be to say, “Ah, but they can be added if they are but it is a drop in the ocean when it comes to preparedness dealing with functions relating to trade.” They include: for the end of the transition period, so I hope that the “the analysis of the flow of traffic, goods and services...the Minister can answer some of those additional questions analysis of the impact, or likely impact, of measures or practices…the and give not simply this House,but business,the reassurance design, implementation and operation of such measures”, that it needs. and so on. Those three specifics, however, are prefaced by: Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): I wish to speak “Those functions include, among other things, functions relating to amendment 1, to”. tabled in my name, and to some of the other clauses. That allows it to be completely open-ended. It is not a During the passage of the incomplete Trade Bill there comprehensive or complete list. As anyone watching were,as the Minister will have seared into his soul, a number will know, trade is no longer simply about traffic flows, of debates and amendments—I think amendments 33 the number of containers, quota and tariffs. It is about and 34—relating to the requirement to collect data by a whole range of things: all sorts of regulations, security, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, specifically with immigration and goodness knows what. 333 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 334 Bill Bill The provision is vague and ill-defined. It strikes me as The hon. Gentleman asked a series of more general being subject to scope creep by regulation. Fundamentally, questions about borders and ports and I will try to it includes clause 2(7)(a) and (b), which is a get out of answer those as best I can, recognising that almost all of jail free card insofar as it disapplies the normal protections his questions are within the remit of other Departments, of information being disclosed, which would be subject rather than the Department for International Trade. in many other circumstances, including in statute, to The hon. Gentleman asked how the border operations legal professional privilege. That is actually a problem centre will assist the movement of medicines and vaccines. in the long run, but not necessarily in the short run as it That will be a key part of the priorities that we have set allows us to get over an immediate hurdle where data for the border after 1 January, to ensure that vital goods must be shared. I appreciate that but, in the long run, continue to flow quickly and efficiently. I will give an how on earth can we say that we are a law-abiding example of the sort of data that would be within scope country and that we want to adhere to the international for the border operations centre, assuming that the Bill legal system—the rule of law internationally—when we becomes law. The ability to analyse customs declarations, have here the disapplication of fundamental rights and transit declarations, export declarations, safety and security protections for people not to have their information, declarations and things such as highways data would, I normally subject to legal protection, shared, collected, think, allow medicines and vaccines to be moved more distributed and disseminated. When the hon. Member quickly and more efficiently than would otherwise be for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) asked the case without the data. whether a private body could act as a public authority, the answer seemed to be that, yes, it could. That means 4.15 pm that we could have a private body—a private company of indeterminate origin and a very small book value—doing The hon. Gentleman asked about the Department for something on behalf of the public, acting as a public Transport’s new ports fund, and he commented on how authority, where the normal protection of data, which it popular it had been; I welcome his welcome of the may be provided with to fulfil its role, has the normal popularity of that fund. In response to his question, I protections of legal privilege disapplied in statute. am not aware of any specific ports, but ports are not within the remit of the Department for International Time is short. I know that this is urgent, I am not stupid, Trade directly, so I will pass on his questions to the but this is actually serious. Wecannot have a Government Department for Transport. We have cross-governmental riding roughshod over legal protection, legal privilege, discussions on ports readiness all the time, in particular in this way over such a short period of time just because between the border and protocol delivery group, the they have failed to get their ducks in a row and a proper Department for Transport and the Cabinet Office. I can functioning Trade Bill through where everything joins up. reassure him that those discussions are very frequent. In It is not my intention, Dame Rosie,to press amendment 1 terms of the number of customs agents recruited, I will to a vote, but I do hope that the Minister takes seriously have to refer him to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, what I have just said and understands the possible in charge of HMRC, to answer his specific point. consequences, particularly if it is private bodies acting I turn to amendment 1, in the name of the hon. as public authorities which have disapplied from them Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie). I would like everything in terms of protection other than data protection to briefly set out why clause 2(7) is required and aim to and whether it would breach one other piece of named alleviate any concerns he may have. As he rightly said, legislation. That is a serious and bad place to be. subsection (7) provides for a general disapplication of existing restrictions on the disclosure of information Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): I will not and applies only to Government Departments and public take the House’s attention for long. Again, I find myself bodies listed in clause 2; I do not think he doubts for a in agreement. The Liberal Democrats have serious moment that that is the case. It provides that restrictions reservations about the original Trade Bill, but we recognise on the disclosure of information will not apply when that, through no fault of this House, the Bill has to be information is disclosed under clause 2(1). expedited. We need some form of data protection and Certain information held by the public authority for our authorities be able to use the data effectively, so specified in clause 2 has been identified for building up we are prepared not to go along with this Bill, but to critical data from which insights may be derived regarding accept that we need it and that we need it by 1 January. the flow of traffic, goods and services in and out of the We are in this situation simply because the negotiations United Kingdom. It is anticipated, however, that those with the European Union have not gone in the way that insights are, in themselves, likely to highlight other the Government had assured us they would and because areas where information is needed in order to provide as the situation has not been handled by the UK Government complete a picture as possible of border flows and as expertly as we might have hoped. activity relating to trade. As Members will be aware, further public bodies may therefore be added to the Greg Hands: I will, if I may, respond to those points. I gateway through the delegated power in clause 2(9). It is thank Members for making them and for participating not possible at this stage to anticipate what specific in this Committee debate. restrictions may apply to those additional public bodies, Taking the points in turn, the hon. Member for and therefore a general disapplication of restrictions is Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) asked about instances appropriate, bearing in mind all the other protections covered by clause 2(7). As he noted, reference to on the face of the Bill. investigatory powers legislation is absent from the Trade Removing subsection (7) would limit the information Bill. That is a minor drafting error. I should have made capable of being disclosed to the Cabinet Office and that clear. An equivalent change will be made to the would ultimately impact the Government’s ability to Trade Bill in due course during its passage. mitigate disruption to the flow of traffic, goods and 335 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 336 Bill Bill services at the border. I should stress that the Government Clause 2(8) makes explicit the requirement for any take the protection of data held by Departments, public data sharing conducted under the proposed gateway to bodies and private companies acting on their behalf comply with data protection legislation, including GDPR. extremely seriously.As I have said, the gateway is permissive. Government Departments sharing data under this gateway It does not mandate that bodies listed in clause 2 must will also be expected to comply with robust data governance share information. Individual Departments and public practices, including completing data protection impact bodies will need to be satisfied that data sharing is assessments and ensuring that data sharing agreements necessary to support functions relating to trade. are in place. Furthermore, clause 3 creates an offence for the disclosure of any information in contravention Stewart Hosie: If the Minister is right that removing of clause 2 where a person’s identity is specified in the the disapplication would restrict the Government’s ability disclosure or can be deduced from it—the point raised to collect the data they need, will he tell the Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire what data that is currently protected the Government (Richard Fuller). wish to access or have a hold of that they would not I hope my remarks have reassured the hon. Member otherwise be able to get? for Dundee East on both the importance of clause 2(7) and the steps that the Government have taken to ensure Greg Hands: That is a very reasonable question, but I the safeguards are in place where data is shared under will stress what I said earlier: it is not possible at this this gateway. I hope that his intention is not to press his stage to anticipate what specific restrictions may apply amendment. I urge the Committee to support clauses 1 to the additional public bodies, otherwise we would to 6. have put on the face of the Bill which other public Question put and agreed to. bodies could be added in due course. We have not put those on the face of the Bill, but we have said that it is Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. perfectly possible that, during the conduct of these Clauses 2 to 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill. operations, it will become clear that there is other data The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. out there that would assist the Government in ensuring Bill reported, without amendment. that trade flows well at the border. We want to ensure that those other bodies could quickly come within scope, Third Reading through the delegated procedures that we have laid out Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be in legislation, and therefore it would not be appropriate now read the Third time.—(Greg Hands.) to put a general restriction on those bodies. It is best to rely on the overall restrictions in the legislation to ensure that we have robust data protection. 4.24 pm Stewart Hosie: I would be delighted to take this Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): The opportunity to make the briefest of Third Reading hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) has speeches and to return to a theme that has typified this raised an issue that would become more relevant if the entire debate. Notwithstanding the need to be able to sunsetting of this legislation does not take hold. If this share data or to have the legal basis on which to do so, it legislation sunsets, most of us will be fairly comfortable is completely wrong to rush this through with potentially with it. However, there is an opening here, with the hours, or possibly a day or so, before the House rises for combination of subsections (7) and (11) of clause 2, recess and barely a fortnight before the full horrors of and subsection (1)—that sets out the purpose—which is Brexit come on to the British people and business in this that it would be right for Parliament to have some country. review of the application of this in practice. Can my This is a lesson for us all in the future: there must be a right hon. Friend give an assurance, if there is no sunset better way of dealing with technical matters, even ones within six months, that he will come back to the House that come up urgently, than today’s very short and to reassure us that those potential areas of concern have expedited debate. I hope that, as the Minister said in not been breached? Committee, the Trade Bill gets its Royal Assent soon enough that the dangers implicit in this—temporary, I Greg Hands: My hon. Friend makes a very good hope—legislation with a long sunset clause do not come point. I must say that if the Trade Bill has not received to fruition. Royal Assent within six months, I will certainly be under scrutiny in this House, for a piece of legislation Question put and agreed to. that has now been with us for three and a half years. I Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. can give him that assurance. Obviously, the intention is that this will sunset when the Trade Bill receives Royal Christine Jardine: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Assent. We do think that the overall restrictions on the Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence and your use of the data, and the discretionary nature of the patience, and I ask your advice on a matter that has power, are appropriate in this place. But it is also quite come to my attention today that is of great importance right for the Government to make allowance for the fact not only to my constituent, Murray Gray, but to a that it may come to light that extra data will be needed, number of constituents, mostly children, who are currently and we do not want to have what might be viewed as in receipt of private prescriptions for medicinal cannabis. unnecessary restrictions on the use of that data being I have had confirmation today that the Department of added now as it becomes useful to us during the course Health and Social Care says that those prescriptions of January. Our intention, however, is that the legislation will not be permissible after 1 January, so a number of should sunset as early as possible, with the Trade Bill patients will find themselves without medication. I wondered receiving Royal Assent. whether there is some way that could be raised as an 337 Trade (Disclosure of Information) 16 DECEMBER 2020 338 Bill urgent matter to be discussed by the House, and that we United Kingdom Internal Market Bill could hear from the Department, before the House rises for recess. Consideration of Lords message

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I After Clause 10 thank the hon. Lady for that point of order. It is not really a matter for the Chair, but she is a very experienced FURTHER EXCLUSIONS FROM MARKET ACCESS Member of the House and I am sure she will talk to the PRINCIPLES Table Office about the different ways she might raise this matter, perhaps through written questions or directly 4.30 pm with Ministers. Obviously, the Treasury Bench has heard what she has to say, so I trust that she will do that as The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, quickly as she can. It is also business questions tomorrow, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): I beg to and she may wish to raise it there. move, I will now suspend the House for three minutes in That this House agrees with Lords amendments 8P, 8Q, 8R, order to allow the safe entry and exit of right hon. and 8S, 8T and 8U. hon. Members. I am delighted to be able to come back to the House today with positive news for business and for our 4.27 pm constituents. As I have said before, I am immensely Sitting suspended. grateful to colleagues across both Houses for their constructive discussions with Government, and I would like to extend my thanks to all colleagues in both Houses for working with the Government to reach agreement on how we can best ensure that the frictionless intra-UK trade we enjoy today can continue into the future, especially as we recover together from covid-19. As we have made clear, this Bill is about protecting businesses and livelihoods—real people and real jobs—and I am pleased that both Houses have worked constructively to do that. I want to again extend my thanks to colleagues on the Opposition Benches in this place, and in the other place in particular, for their engagement. As I set out to the House yesterday, the Government are committed to the common frameworks programme. We attach enormous value to the fora that they provide forcollaborativeworkingwiththedevolvedAdministrations. The Government have also been clear that the market access principles will work in tandem with common frameworks. We have been asked to provide as much clarity as possible on our continuing commitment to the programme, and we have thought long and hard about this over recent weeks. It is important that we respect the flexibility, and also the commonality, of common frameworks, paying close attention to the interests of all parts of the UK involved in the common frameworks programme and protecting the voluntary and consensus- driven nature of the programme. Indeed, these aspects are key to the effectiveness of the processes. The Government have listened carefully and reflected on the points put forward in both Houses about putting common frameworks on the face of the Bill, and we have now done so through these Lords amendments.

Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): Obviously we welcome some sort of concession on common frameworks, but the Minister said yesterday that enshrining common frameworks in the Bill would create uncertainty for business, so what has changed from last night to today?

Paul Scully: What has changed from last night to today is the convivial and constructive discussions we have had to allow for amendments that are worded to the satisfaction of, certainly, the other place and I hope this place, that will allow us to progress with both the common frameworks as a voluntary process and the certainty of the internal market. 339 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill16 DECEMBER 2020 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill 340

Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) common framework agreements.In such cases,the Secretary (Ind): Before the Minister starts launching the fireworks of State would be able to bring to the House a statutory in celebration of the progress in the Lords yesterday, I instrument to exclude from market access principles a would like to remind him that the Welsh Government specific agreed area of divergence. That would follow remain deeply dissatisfied and have announced that consensus being reached between the UK Governments they intend taking the UK Government to court over and all the relevant parties that that was appropriate, in the provisions in the Bill, not least the state aid provisions respect of a specific defined topic within a common and the economic intervention proposals. Will he explain framework. how the common frameworks process will work and For parts 1 and 2 of the Bill, previous amendments where power will reside within the common frameworks, are provided for consent to be sought from the devolved because there is a degree of ambiguity about that? Will Administrations. If that is not forthcoming within a he also commit the British Government to bringing month, MPs and peers from all parts of the UK would forward a statement on the common frameworks to the thereafter be able to debate and, if appropriate, agree to House of Commons for scrutiny in the new year so that the change. We do not currently expect such cases to we can have a discussion about whether this is actually arise very frequently, but want to be clear that appropriate the best way forward? means are in place to respect them when they do. The amendments to clauses 10 and 17 are complemented Paul Scully: Clearly it is disappointing that the Welsh by amendments 8T and 8U.In line with other Government Government have chosen to issue that statement, especially amendments to enhance the overall transparency of the in the light of the productive working relationship that United Kingdom Internal Market Bill and the role of we have enjoyed with their Ministers and officials during the Office for the Internal Market, these amendments the passage of the Bill. I know that the common frameworks demonstrate our commitment to transparency and evidence have been subject to much debate, and I hope I will be building regarding the interaction between the market able to clarify this as we go through. There will be more access principles and the common frameworks programme. discussion in the new year about the frameworks and As part of the OIM’sfive-yearly review into the effectiveness how they will work moving forward, because they have been of parts 1 to 3 in supporting a healthy internal market, productive in a number of areas to date, and I know the OIM will now also address how parts 1 to 3 have that that will continue. affected the operation of agreements under common frameworks, including the effect that those agreements Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I, too, thank the have had on the operation of the internal market. This Minister for what he has brought forward, but I seek will ensure proper scrutiny of both regulatory changes clarification, as I often do, on the position of Northern and the progress made under common frameworks. Ireland within the United Kingdom. Will the final The Government are confident that these amendments decisions on any movement of goods, east-west, north- provide an appropriate way to ensure that market access south, or whatever it may be, lie with the Northern principles in the Bill can act to ensure certainty and a Ireland Assembly or with this place? Also, what discussions seamlessly functioning internal market for all British has he had with the Northern Ireland Assembly, the businesses and citizens. They do this while allowing a First Minister,the Deputy First Minister and the Minister degree of agreed flexibility,reflecting different circumstances at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment? in particular parts of the UK. In reaching agreement on these amendments and thus agreeing on the final Paul Scully: Ironically, not particularly on common outstanding issues of the Bill, both Houses will be frameworks or the United Kingdom Internal Market protecting and preserving the United Kingdom’s internal Bill, although I have taken over from my ministerial market,whichhasbeenthebedrockof oursharedprosperity colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on- for centuries. Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), in the quad discussions with the devolved Administrations. We had my first one this Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): Well morning, and I look forward to further conversations. here we are again—groundhog day. Early on, I dubbed As for what happens to Northern Ireland goods to GB this Bill the infernal market Bill, and it has certainly and vice versa, we have had an agreement in the Joint lived up to that name. It is good to see the hon. Member Committee. I look forward to seeing the results of the for Stone (Sir William Cash) in his seat again. I am not talks that are continuing in Brussels, because ultimately sure what he is going to do in a few weeks’ time after all if there is a pathway to a deal, that will help to smooth his doughty energies tackling issues around Brexit. I am the transition process. Ultimately, however, the long-term not sure whose fault it is all going to be in a few weeks’ aim of what happens to the workings of the Northern time. Perhaps Ministers should watch their backs; they Ireland protocol will sit with the elected representatives might find it is their fault once Brexit can no longer be of Northern Ireland, given their vote in a few years’ time. blamed for all his ills. The Government here are demonstrating their Let me start by thanking Ministers and their officials commitment to the programme by, first, placing common for the discussions that we have had in recent days frameworks on the face of the Bill, through our about how we can make the best of this bad Bill. Let us amendments yesterday in the other place, and, secondly, be honest: when it first saw the light of day, it was clear clarifying the relationship that we see between agreements for all to see what a terrible Bill this was. It was wrong in made under the common frameworks processes and the seeking to break international law, and it was wrong in internal market principles established by the Bill. Specifically, disrespecting the devolution settlement and failing we are making it clear, through amendments 8P to 8S, to understand the way the UK now works through that delegated powers under clauses 10 and 17 may be power sharing. That is why we have been so vociferously utilised to, among other things, make provision to reflect opposed to it in this House. 341 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill16 DECEMBER 2020 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill 342

We led the way on that, starting, as you will remember, Lucy Powell: I have just been alerted to that. I am not Madam Deputy Speaker, with my right hon. Friend the sure of the details at this stage, so it is probably best that Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) taking I do not comment. However, it is obviously a Labour down every single argument of the Prime Minister, who Administration, and we support them and have worked was here himself on Second Reading. Through the Bill’s very closely with them. I thank them for their co-operation many stages in this House, we have been clear in our with us on the Bill. opposition to some of its serious flaws. It has been Common frameworks will allow different nations in a long and difficult process. the UK to set their own standards in key areas and to agree minimum standards for all. That is why it was so Alan Brown: If Labour has really led the way, why did important to us from the start that there was recognition it back down in the votes in the other place on protecting of common frameworks on the face of the Bill. However, devolution in respect of Westminster’s ability to spend it is still far from ideal, and the Government have been and meddle in devolved affairs? dragged kicking and screaming to these issues only because of the pressure we have applied, working tirelessly Lucy Powell: The hon. Gentleman knows that that is in the other place, and I pay tribute again to Lord Hope, not the case. That is not what happened in the other Lord Stevenson and Baroness Hayter for all their work place. It is thanks to the Labour leadership in the other on this. place that we have seen improvements to the Bill, and I will say a bit more about that in a minute. 4.45 pm The Bill is now in much better shape than it was. It is It is no thanks to the nationalist parties that we have far from good, let alone perfect, but it is better. That is achieved these concessions. Madam Deputy Speaker, thanks to the leadership shown by Labour colleagues in you were in the Chair yesterday, and they were giving the other place, who built alliances and worked with guile me grief as usual, because their tactic is to engage not in and tenacity to get us to where we are. The Government, the legislative process and in seeking improvements, but by the way, have a majority in the other place; despite in the politics of grievance. Despite one of them being in that, we managed to inflict a number of Government government in Scotland and having a sizeable parliamentary defeats. As a result, the Government dropped most of group here, it is always somebody else’s fault, isn’t it? part 5, which was the international lawbreaking part of They sit at the back of the bus, with their arms folded, the Bill originally and now upholds the Northern Ireland shouting at others in order to get a bit of clickbait for protocol. social media, which I am sure is what they were doing yesterday. Hon. Members should be in no doubt that After Labour worked cross-party with colleagues and the Labour party has led the charge in opposing this others to ensure successive Government defeats in the Bill. We have led the Government to the improvements other place, and after several rounds of ping-pong— and changes that we see today, and although the Bill is I have lost count of how many—the Bill has been far from perfect, it is much better. We did that because improved in a number of ways. We have the one-month we have to live with this Bill in the years to come. mechanism for the devolved Administrations’ consent However,the Government must reflect too.Their starting on regulations; the operation of the internal market in point could not have got this more wrong. Devolution the interest of consumers; the consent and involvement and power sharing are about finding common ground of the devolved Administrations on the make-up and and agreement, even with those from other democratically operation of the Office for the Internal Market, and the elected political parties, such as the nationalist party in removal and review of the Henry VIII powers. Scotland, that we might not agree with. Trying to power- Today, we welcome the Government’s concessions on grab and hug powers close does not defeat one’sopponents; common frameworks in response to Lord Hope and it gives them more oxygen and more grievance. Lord Stevenson’s amendments. In particular,amendments We accept the improvements to date, but we note that to clauses 10 and 17 allow for agreements arising from theystartfromaverybadstartingpoint.Somemightdescribe common frameworks to be excluded from the application them, as we say up north, as trying to polish a turd. of market principles. They also include in the Bill a definition of a common framework agreement, something Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): I was very taken by that we have been seeking from the beginning. We also the reference the hon. Member for Manchester Central welcome the amendment to clause 31 that provides for (Lucy Powell) made to improvement. Having looked at the Competition and Markets Authority and the Office the Bill and followed it over the last few weeks, I find it for the Internal Market to include in their five-year difficult to call it an improvement. reporting details of the interaction between market access principles and common framework agreements, and of However, I want to pay tribute to the Public Bill Office. the impact of common framework agreements on the Given the amendments, and the contortions the Public operation and development of the internal market. Bill Office has had to absorb in looking at the Reasons Committee’s consideration of these issues and at the We have fought long and hard to ensure that the Bill question of what insistence on disagreement or agreement does not undermine devolution, because we believe in is at a particular point in time before it comes from one devolution. These are important safeguards that really House to the other and goes back again, this has been do strengthen the Bill. an incredible exercise in complexity—so much so that it would be asking an awful lot to expect anybody, including Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Lady will be aware that, the Minister,to be able to claim that they really understand as I alluded to earlier, the Labour Government in Wales what it is that has ultimately arrived. I was going to ask are threatening legal action. Is that something that she him if he would like to explain exactly what all this and the Labour party in Westminster will be supporting? means. We will only find out in due course. 343 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill16 DECEMBER 2020 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill 344

[Sir William Cash] but it is gall that they have when they talk about this. You can understand, Madam Deputy Speaker,whyLabour I was looking at the reasons for disagreeing only has only one MP in Scotland. yesterday, and they were very clear. One said that the Instead of taking this Bill apart, as they should have Government disagreed with the Lords over the question done, those on the Labour Front Bench spend more of of legal certainty and disruption to business. Suddenly, their time talking about the democratically elected Members almost at the wave of a magic wand, all of that has of Parliament that they have here, who, as I pointed completely evaporated into thin air, and we have ended out, are in vastly greater numbers than the one Labour up with this extremely contorted, extremely confusing MP from Scotland. They are not listening to Scotland—they and ambiguous series of statements. However, at the never do—and Labour has allowed this aberration to heart of it, there is one point that I want to put to the come forward in this way by abstaining in the House of Minister. Does he recall the famous Schleswig-Holstein Lords. question? Only three people comprehended what was going on, or they had originally, but unfortunately one The amendment does not protect devolution, as I had forgotten, one had died and the other had gone said: the Minister has laid that out clearly today for mad. [Interruption.] I am not going to attribute any everybody to hear. Westminster Ministers will still have one of those to the Minister. However, right at the heart the right to impose lower food, environmental and other of this, a lot of very complicated drafting has been put devolved standards on Scotland, regardless of the view in to try to salvage some face. As I read it, the Secretary of Holyrood. This Bill is the biggest assault on devolution of State can make these regulations but—this goes to in the history of the Scottish Parliament. It undermines the heart of it—that process would be subject to the devolved policy making, grabs spending powers, and affirmative resolution under clause 10(2), which is mirrored removes state aid from being a devolved responsibility. in clause 17. It strikes me that there is one fundamental The Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly refused question: can the Minister effectively veto matters that to give this Bill consent, and it is outrageous that the have been discussed and consulted on with the devolved UK Government are once again ignoring the wishes of Administration? If the regulations are subject to the the people of Scotland as well as Wales. affirmative resolution, it seems that may well turn out In welcoming the amendment, Professor Aileen McHarg to be the case. Who knows? I do not know at the warned: moment, and only when the process reaches its conclusion “There are still significant problems with this Bill: it changes will we know whether the reserved powers in the Scotland the scope of devolved decision-making; it reserves additional Act 1998 will bite. I cannot be sure of that. I have a powers to Westminster; it empowers the UK Government to feeling that this may end up in the courts, and perhaps spend in devolved areas that have nothing to do with markets (eg the situation will be made clearer. We are at the end of prisons,sport, international student exchanges); and above all—unlike EU law—it has an inherently asymmetrical effect on decision-making the line for this Bill, and I regard the whole thing as for England and for the devolved territories. being difficult to plot in terms of a clear path to any conclusion. This is a Bill which squarely falls within the scope of the Sewel Convention, and the necessity of which is deeply questionable.” Jonathan Edwards: In the 10 years that I have been in But of course the Government have not listened to that, this place, I think this is the first time that I have agreed and Labour has capitulated on it. with the hon. Gentleman on a substantial point. The The only reason for this Bill as it now stands is to concession last night in the Lords opens up a number of demolish devolution. If the Government take this Bill new questions, and there needs to be a well thought out forward today, as they obviously will, that is what they process regarding how the common frameworks will will be doing. Any pretence thereafter by the Scottish work, where power will reside within the frameworks, Tory MPs that they respect the democratic rights of the and who has the power to create them. I would like a far people of Scotland will be blown apart if they support more consensual approach than we have seen today. this today. In fact, they have already supported it, because it seems that it will go through. They have done Sir William Cash: I am glad to hear that. I am not nothing to protect the democratic rights of the Scottish sure—we cannot be sure—whether these provisions might people. eventually be declared void for uncertainty, and I am not clear about what they will do in practice. At least, People in Scotland are watching. People in Scotland, however, we have got to the end of the Bill. I am in when they see the effects of this Bill, will be angry about favour of the Bill in principle, and that is about all I the fact that their rights are being taken away by these need to say for the moment. As far as I am concerned, Tory Ministers, aided by their Labour bedfellows. They the future lies ahead with uncertainty built into these will be furious about the fact that their rights are being provisions. stripped from them. They are listening, they are watching, and they are seeing developments in this place. They are Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and understanding, now, that the only way to protect their Strathspey) (SNP): Any improvement to the Bill would Parliament, their rights and their democracy in Scotland be welcomed, but the proposed amendment does nothing is to go forward as an independent nation—and they to protect the devolution settlement—the Minister said will be voting for that, I am sure, in due course. as much in his opening remarks—and the provisions will simply allow this Parliament to overrule Scottish Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): Yesterday Parliament and Welsh Parliament decisions. It is incredible I said that there was still time for compromise, so I am to hear Labour Front Benchers trying to take credit. glad that the Government have finally gone for some They say that they led the way, but they have actually degree of a consensus approach, and there is no doubt paved the way for this Bill to do that to the Scottish that what will be on the statute book is an improvement Parliament. They talk about the guile they have shown, on the legislation that was initially introduced back in 345 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill16 DECEMBER 2020 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill 346 the autumn. I would like to acknowledge the Minister’s It is appalling too—I have to say this—that the loyal engagement over the Bill. I also thank my Liberal Democrat and spineless Opposition betrayed generations of Scottish colleagues in the Lords, who have played an important Labour activists and politicians who fought to establish role, and our staff teams across both Houses. devolution and battled their own party sometimes, but However, I do still have concerns about the Bill, one who learned to work across civic Scotland to deliver it. I of which is about the Office for the Internal Market. think they must not have heard the warnings of Scottish The Government need to be transparent about what role Labour Action that a powerful devolved Administration that office will play in future trade deals. Can foreign in Scotland were not a frippery, but an absolutely essential investors in a US trade deal use it to undermine the counterpoint to Westminster and Whitehall blindness devolved nations? I have asked that question repeatedly. to issues anywhere outside the south-east of England. I I am also conscious that the legislative value of this Bill expect nothing better from the Tories, but the Labour might, in practice, be limited, or indeed pretty much party has betrayed its own members and the activists non-existent, especially if we reach a trade deal and a who spent so long on the Calton Hill vigil. This desperate standards agreement with the EU.Weobviously need more attempt to appeal to Tory values to try to bury the clarity on this, as the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William incompetence of the previous leadership might seem a Cash) said. decent old political strategy, but it renders the existence of the Labour party utterly meaningless. Unfortunately,as I pointed out yesterday,these changes, while positive, are too late, because the damage has In any case, we finally have a nod to the devolution already been done. The Minister heard the speeches of settlement, even if it has been forced by the House of SNP Members yesterday, but I wonder whether he Lords. In yesterday’s debate, the Minister said this listened. With this Bill, the Government have been legislation was about devolution, demonstrated that it pouring fuel on a fire, as alluded to by the hon. Member was about dismantling devolution and failed to answer for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell). I ask the Minister: any of the questions raised during the debate. It seems what has this all been worth? If the Government are that Ministers in this UK Government no longer seek committed to the future of the United Kingdom, they to engage in discussion, but instead merely fling pre-written need to start acting like it. barbs that they clearly think are clever. It is not clear whether they know how to debate and choose not to, or I cannot count the number of newspaper articles I do not actually have command of their brief. Either have read over the past year reporting a reset in the way, it is unfitting for a Minister and no way to run a Government’s approach to the Union, that a new Cabinet Government. Committee has been set up to finally solve the Government’s problem as regards relations with the devolved nations, Instead of offering amendments to this elected Chamber or that the Prime Minister is going to love-bomb Scotland. yesterday or at any point during the passage of this Bill, I urge the Government: this is not about Committees, the Government arranged their business in the unelected or grand new offices in Edinburgh, or bridges or tunnels Chamber—somewhere it clearly feels most comfortable, over or under the Irish sea. Those of my constituents among the privileged and away from the bother of the who are uncertain about where they want Scotland’s concerns of the people we represent. Those amendments, future to lie will not be convinced by Union Jacks on I will grant, go a little way towards addressing some of UK Government infrastructure projects: cack-handed the concerns that have been raised, but I suggest that stuff, as the passage of this Bill clearly indicates. What they were driven more by a desire to mollify cantankerous they will be convinced by is a UK Government who Lords than by the need to create decent legislation. treat the devolved nations with respect, maturity and They are tiny baby steps in the right direction at the honesty, and who work together with the devolved time we needed giant strides and they leave, as we have nations to find consensus, because I do believe that we already heard, reams of unanswered questions—how have too much in common for borders to divide us. Are disputes between Governments will be resolved, for example, we in this place capable of that? I like to believe we are, and how consumers can be protected from unthinking but for too many of my constituents, it has not felt like and uncaring Prime Ministers, for another. that over the last few months with this Bill. The amendments will also embed an imbalance in the So I do urge the Government: compromise and consensus framework of a post-Brexit UK that will see England’s were the reluctant final steps they took with regard to Government outweigh the other Governments in any this Bill. Noting the comments of the hon. Member for negotiation, as the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) in Cash) pointed out. He put his finger on the exact nub of relation to the Welsh Government’s statement, let the this problem. England’s Government will outweigh first steps the Government take in their future relationship the other Governments in any negotiation, because it with the devolved nations be that compromise and continues to claim overlordship as the supposed consensus. Government of the UK. Labour might be interested in looking at that, because it echoes the democratic deficit that drove the creation of the devolved Administrations 5 pm in the first place. Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): I suppose it is good to see that the Government have finally Sir William Cash: I personally have always believed admitted that they have to listen to the concerns being raised that there should have been a referendum of the whole about their appalling ignorance over devolution and United Kingdom over the devolution question. I put how the UK currently works. Is it not bizarre that the down my own amendment back in 1997, and half the unelected bunch along the corridor had more appreciation Conservative party went against a three-line Whip and of the democratic deficit at the heart of the UK than followed me into the Lobby. That is the real way to get the Government of “reclaiming sovereignty” fame? consent. I believe in the Union, and I believe that there 347 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill16 DECEMBER 2020 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill 348

[Sir William Cash] The Bill allows Westminster to spend not only in Scotland but in Wales, overruling the Welsh Labour should never have been devolution other than through a Government on health, education, culture, sports facilities, United Kingdom referendum, if it was going to happen court or prison facilities and housing. We are leading at all. the way in building social housing in Scotland. We ended the right to buy. The Tories obviously still think Deidre Brock: I do not want to be rude to the hon. that the right to buy is a good thing, forcing councils to Gentleman, but he presents us with a glorious example get rid of their housing stock. How dare Westminster of exactly why many on the SNP Benches want to get legislate to provide housing in Scotland—we have done away from this House of Commons. very well without your help, thank you very much. Scotland faces the same situation as we did in the last State aid is something else that Labour gave up on. It quarter of the last century: a UK Government of a hue has been stated clearly that state aid was never a reserved that we did not vote for and would not support are function, and therefore it was devolved to the four riding roughshod over the interests of the Scottish people nations, so why is Westminster taking it back? Does it and will ignore them if they can. This Bill will pass think that that sends out a good message? today, but the debate will continue, and we have not yet People are watching. Studies in Scotland have shown begun to fight. time and again that people in Scotland trust the Scottish Parliament to legislate and invest in these matters over Alan Brown: I would like to briefly add to what my Westminster, so why Westminster thinks it can do a colleagues have said. Wewelcome some sort of recognition better job is beyond me. As my hon. Friend the Member of the common frameworks. There is a lot still to be for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey said, it teased out in terms of how that will work. We know that looks like independence is the only way that we can Westminster’s sovereignty will overrule things, and that protect the powers of the Scottish Parliament. Bring is still a big concern, but we welcome that measure. it on. I still do not understand how the Minister stood at the Dispatch Box yesterday and said that common frameworks Paul Scully: Let me quickly answer a few points. My could not be enshrined in the Bill, because it would be hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) so bad and would cause businesses uncertainty, and asked for a bit more detail on the amendments. In the now he says, “We’ve listened to the Lords, and everything’s small number of cases in which the market access okay.”It would be good if he could clarify that when he principles apply to divergence agreed under a common sums up. framework, clauses 10 and 17 could be used to exclude Despite what the hon. Member for Manchester Central the agreement from the market access principles. The (Lucy Powell) said, Labour did not lead the way on this. Secretary of State would be able to do so following a Labour gave up on devolution, and it gave up in the consensus agreement that that was appropriate under other place. Labour did not even back my hon. Friend the common framework. That is the appropriate way to the Member for Inverness,Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey ensure that the market access principles in the Bill can (Drew Hendry) in the Reasons Committee. Labour sat ensure certainty and a seamlessly functioning internal on its hands in the vote in that Committee. Lord Stevenson market while still respecting agreed limited divergence said, “We will not divide the House.” That is giving up. under the common frameworks programme. Labour gave up in the Lords. Originally,LordHope’samendmentswouldhaverequired Let us look at clause 48 and what Labour gave up on. the Secretary of State to exclude any divergence agreed Westminster is now allowed to provide infrastructure at under the common frameworks process from market places in the United Kingdom, including infrastructure access principles; by contrast, the Government’samendment connected with any of the other purposes mentioned. makes it clear that this is an option open to the Secretary That infrastructure includes water, which is still publicly of State, thereby giving the Secretary of State the discretion owned in Scotland, electricity,gas,telecoms,sewerage—also to ensure that the disapplication of the market access publicly owned in Scotland—railway facilities and roads principles would never lead to the emergence of or other transport facilities. As the hon. Member for unacceptable trade barriers within the United Kingdom. North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) said, that paves The hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy the way for the glorious Union bridge or Union tunnel Chamberlain) talked about the CMA, the OIM and what that we do not want and do not need, because we can would happen with international players. The CMA invest better in transport infrastructure ourselves. and the OIM have the flexibility to investigate and There is no doubt that the greatest improvements in report on any issues that they choose, but they are not Scotland’s infrastructure have come since the introduction themselves decision makers on market access principles. of the Scottish Parliament, making decisions for the Throughout the Bill’s passage, we have made sure that people of Scotland on behalf of the people of Scotland both the OIM and the Bill itself will apply rules to andrepresentingthepeoplewhoelectedthem.[Interruption.] each part of the UK—to England, Scotland, Wales and Does the hon. Member for Manchester Central want to Northern Ireland—equally. intervene? No. As I was saying, the greatest improvements inScotland’sinfrastructurehavecomesincetheintroduction Wendy Chamberlain: I thank the Minister for his of the Scottish Parliament. MSPs are answerable to the response, but will he accept that, in the letter he wrote people who elected them. Unfortunately, we have a right- to the Scottish Affairs Committee after his appearance wing Tory Government who Scotland did not elect, and before the Committee in relation to the Bill, he was now they are free to overrule us. Labour backed down. unable definitively to rule out foreign investors being It does not matter what the hon. Member for Manchester able to take the UK Government to court, whether Central said; Labour backed down and gave up. through the OIM or otherwise? 349 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill16 DECEMBER 2020 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill 350

Paul Scully: In establishing the Office for the Internal Bill over the last few weeks. I thank the Public Bill Market through this Bill, I wanted to make sure that it Office for its support to all Members and officials was not the Office for the Internal Market itself that it across Government. I pay tribute to the entire ministerial would be able to work through, so that is within the team across both Houses and all Departments, who purview of this particular part of the Bill. have worked jointly to deliver the Bill—in particular, The hon. Member for North East Fife talked about Lord Callanan, Lord True and the Minister for the about the fact that when we talk about devolution it is Constitution and Devolution, my hon. Friend the Member not about Committees, and I totally agree: it is about for Norwich North (Chloe Smith), and the Minister of dialogue, consensus and giving business certainty. This State, Northern Ireland Office, my hon. Friend the is in stark contrast to what we have seen from the Scottish Member for Worcester (Mr Walker). I also pay tribute National party, which walked away from discussions to Yasmin Kalhori and the team of the Leader of the about the internal market in 2019. That is no way to House of Lords. build consensus and to have that dialogue. If the SNP I welcome the contributions and the constructive and the Scottish Government want to talk about ending discussions that we have had in recent days with Opposition the right to buy and to go with that to the council Members in both Houses that have got us to this place. house-owning residents in their electorate, that is up to We have had some passionate debates on the Bill, them. Weare not talking about devolved parts of housing; because of the importance of the issues. However, the when we talk about spending or any of these other issues, Bill will ensure that UK businesses can trade across the it is complementary to what the Scottish Government, four parts of the UK in a way that helps them to invest or indeed the Welsh Senedd or the Northern Ireland and create jobs, just as they have for hundreds of years. Assembly, are doing within their devolved rights. I am therefore delighted to ask the House to agree to the amendments, and to complete our scrutiny and Drew Hendry: Once again, the Minister has talked consideration of the Bill. about the Scottish Government walking away from the internal market discussions; of course, the internal market Drew Hendry: This is an outrage to Scotland. It is not discussions led on to this Bill—we knew it was going to acceptable. be a bad move forward. The Scottish Government engaged constructively, and continue to be willing to do Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): so, in the common frameworks discussions. The Minister Order. The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat, and should make that clear when he makes that point about he knows that. [Interruption.] This is just showing off. the internal market discussions. On the matter of housing, He should resume his seat, otherwise I will name him as my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and and order him to leave. [Interruption.] Does he want to Loudoun (Alan Brown) pointed out, the Government can be named? Is that what is happening? [Interruption.] If now interfere in and overrule legislation in Scotland. that is what is happening, we can do it. [Interruption.] Okay—I will name him. I know what he is doing. [Interruption.] Oh, for goodness’ sake! Very childish. Paul Scully: No, this is about spreading. I readily accept that the discussions on common frameworks Drew Hendry, Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch continue, and I very much welcome that. As I say, and Strathspey, was named by the Deputy Speaker for common frameworks go wider than just trade and the disregarding the authority of the Chair (Standing Order measures covered in the Bill. None the less, to walk away No. 44). from discussions on the internal market a full year or Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order 18 months before we reached this position is really to No. 44), walk away from the responsibility to help to shape the That Drew Hendry be suspended from the service of the discussions,aswehaveseeninthemorefruitfulconversations House.—(David T. C. Davies.) with the Welsh Senedd, including in recent days. Question agreed to. We heard the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and The Deputy Speaker directed Drew Hendry to withdraw Leith (Deidre Brock) talk about pre-written barbs, but from the House, and the Member withdrew accordingly. time and again when we have come back to this place it Main Question again proposed. has just been a rehearsal of the arguments not about the devolution settlement or the Bill itself, but about Question put and agreed to. independence. It has been the same debate time and Resolved, again, instead of Members involving themselves in the That this House agrees with Lords amendments 8P, 8Q, 8R, detail of the Bill and giving certainty to business. 8S, 8T and 8U.

Alan Brown: Will the Minister give way? Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): We will suspend for three minutes, in order to allow safe exit and entry. Paul Scully: I will not give way. I finish by thanking everyone who spoke in the debate, 5.17 pm and by once again thanking all hon. and right hon. Sitting suspended. Members and noble Lords who have engaged with the 351 16 DECEMBER 2020 Independent Parliamentary Standards 352 Authority Independent Parliamentary Standards since 2016. He was a judge in the Queen’s bench division Authority of the High Court, a nominated judge of the administrative court and the presiding judge of the western circuit. He also chaired the Litvinenko inquiry in 2014-15. 5.21 pm If the appointments are made, Helen Jones will serve The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees- on IPSA for five years and Sir Robert Owen will serve a Mogg): I beg to move, further three-year term. I hope that the House will support these appointments, and we wish the candidates That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will appoint Helen Jones to the office of well in these important roles. I commend the motion to ordinary member of the Independent Parliamentary Standards the House. Authority with effect from 1 January 2021 for the period ending on 31 December 2025; and that Her Majesty will re-appoint 5.25 pm Sir Robert Owen to the office of ordinary member of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority with effect from 1 January Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I thank the Leader 2021 for the period ending on 31 December 2023. of the House for setting out in full the background to The Speaker’s Committee has produced a report—its these appointments. The Opposition support the motion, first report of 2020— in relation to this motion. It may but I want to say a couple of words about Sir Robert help if I set out the key points for the record. The Owen. I am pleased that a person of his stature has Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority board agreed to be reappointed. Helen Jones has served in this members are appointed under the Parliamentary Standards House, as the Leader of the House has outlined, as Act 2009. Under the Act, the Speaker is responsible for Chair of the Petitions Committee. I know that both will overseeing the selection of candidates for appointment bring their expertise on this important body.Her Majesty’s to the IPSA. The names of any candidates to be members Opposition support everything that the Leader of the of the IPSA must be approved by the Speaker’sCommittee House has said and support the motion. for the IPSA. The Act also states: 5.26 pm “At least one of the members of the IPSA must be a person who has held (but no longer holds) high judicial office (within the Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I meaning of Part 3 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005…At thank the Leader of the House for moving the motion least one of the members of the IPSA must be a person who is … in our proceedings this evening, and of course we support qualified under Schedule 3 to the National Audit Act 1983 to be both candidates and we wish them both well. I think we an auditor for the National Audit Office...One of the members of the IPSA…must be a person who has been (but is no longer) a are all familiar with Helen Jones, who has such a member of the House of Commons.” distinguished record of service to the House, and wish her well in her deliberations. I think we can all trust that On this occasion, the vacancies are for a former Member our interests will be looked after by the IPSA. of the House of Commons and a former holder of high judicial office. This process has followed the best possible practice in the House and is an exemplar for how we do these The terms of office of the current incumbents come things. What we did was select from a wide range of to an end on 31 December this year. Jenny Willott, the people who came forward with the necessary experience. former MP currently serving on the IPSA board, is What was required was a practical engagement with the stepping down at the end of her term. I would like to House, and the way the process was handled was a put on record our thanks to her for her service. As is credit to the House. We can only compare that with normal for these appointments, Mr Speaker appointed what happened a couple of weeks ago, which was an a panel who conducted the shortlisting and interviewing absolute and utter disgrace and an embarrassment to of candidates. The panel was chaired by former civil this House, when this House turned down what the service commissioner,Mark Addison. The other members Commission had decided for lay members of the Standards of the panel were Cindy Butts, a lay member of the Committee. Speaker’s Committee for the IPSA, and Richard Lloyd, the interim chairman of the IPSA. The panel reported We should look at both examples: one, a best-practice back to the Speaker’s Committee with a list of candidates exemplar of how we do things; the other, a disgrace that that it assessed as being appointable to each role. The will do nothing but discourage good people from coming Speaker’s Committee considered the report at its meeting forward and offering their services to this House. We last week. It agreed with Mr Speaker that Helen Jones should be doing everything possible to get people such should be appointed to the former Member of the as Helen Jones and Robert Owen, not turning them House of Commons position, and that Sir Robert Owen away by changing the criteria halfway through the should be reappointed to the former holder of high process, when it had been agreed by the Commission. I judicial office position. hope we never, ever get into such a situation again, that what we are doing today is the gold standard for how we Helen Jones, who will be familiar to many Members, make such appointments to the House, and that we was the popular Member for Warrington North from never, ever revisit the shambles of a couple of weeks 1997 to 2019. She chaired the Petitions Committee with ago, with the lay members of the Standards Committee. distinction from 2015 to 2019. [Interruption.] Somebody has a telephone call coming in; I hope it is important. 5.27 pm Helen Jones previously served as an Opposition spokesman, senior Government Whip and Parliamentary Private Mr Rees-Mogg: I thought we were going to achieve a Secretary. Prior to entering the House, she worked as a degree of pre-Christmas consensus. I am grateful to the solicitor, a teacher and a justice and peace officer in the right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), the Liverpool archdiocese. Sir Robert Owen is the current shadow Leader of the House. I think the hon. Member incumbent and has served as an IPSA board member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) was 353 Independent Parliamentary Standards 16 DECEMBER 2020 354 Authority unfair to the House of Commons. In any process where Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs and this House is the final decision maker, it must not be Decarbonisation deemed, thought or considered to be a mere rubber stamp. Any process that ends in this House must always Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do so with the House being free to choose as it sees fit. do now adjourn.—(David T.C. Davies.) That is why under statute there is provision for this debate. It is therefore limited to 90 minutes—although 5.30 pm that seems to be more time than will be taken on this occasion—but this House should never view itself as a Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con): Border carbon cipher or a rubber stamp. adjustment: it may not trip off the tongue, but this is These issues are important, but I agree with the hon. not a dull subject. This policy is the stuff that dreams Gentleman that we have two very fine candidates on are made of. this occasion. To have a former judge of the stature of I ask hon. Members to imagine that, as they settle Sir Robert Owen is exactly what we need and gives down in their beds, they start to wonder how we could confidence to Members that matters will be handled create the economic environment for levelling up in our fairly. I also think it was important to have Helen manufacturing heartlands, giving them a low-carbon Jones—somebody who had served in the House for a head start on the rest of the world. As they turn over long time and thoroughly understood the ways of the and start to count the fluffy sheep jumping over a fence, House, and who, as Chairman of the Petitions Committee, they catch sight of a free market that naturally seeks out showed how effectively she can work on a cross-party the most effective way to reach carbon net zero and basis—because we want this committee to achieve consensus deliver on the Prime Minister’s 10-point plan. Finally, and to work well for the interests of the House, while just as they drift off to sleep, they glimpse, as in a glass also defending taxpayers’ interests in the use of their darkly, a Government leading the world at COP26, money. I am therefore grateful for the broad support, achievinganinternationalapproachthatbringsco-operation but it is important to remember that this House, when it and rapprochement with our European and American is the final arbiter, is an uninhibited arbiter. friends and allies. Could this be real, or must it evermore Question put and agreed to. remain but a dream? Well, this is no dream, and we can turn it into reality PETITION with a border carbon adjustment. We know we need to reduce carbon to net zero by 2050, and centuries of experience have taught us that the free market is without Railway between Stoke and Leek equal in being able to solve challenging economic problems such as this. Yet, right now, our free market stands 5.29 pm helplessly by, its creativity and innovation useless. Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of North Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I commend the Staffordshire. hon. Gentleman on bringing this matter forward. He is The petition states: right about the Prime Minister’sstatement on environmental The petition of the residents of North Staffordshire; issues. Does he agree that we now have the potential to make a real and lasting change for the better by Declares that improving rail infrastructure and providing better implementing environmental changes, but that we must rail services in our city and wider North Staffordshire is vital for the growth of our local economy; notes that over 1,000 constituents also be aware that the pressure on businesses must allow have signed a corresponding petition asking to reopen the railway them to continue to operate and not put them out of between Stoke and Leek; further declares that it would create jobs business? There is a balance to be got, I believe, and we and unlock the potential of unused brownfield sites in our area; have an obligation not only to the industry, but to the and further that it would greatly benefit commuters and passengers. environment to get it right. The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take such action as is necessary to Jerome Mayhew: The hon. Gentleman is entirely reopen the railway between Stoke and Leek. right. That is one of the great benefits of a border And the petitioners remain, etc. adjustment: it allows us to raise domestic costs without [P002639] being unfairly undercut by international imports coming in. Wecan square the circle.Wecan support the environment by setting a carbon price that is sufficient to change people’s behaviour, to make lower-carbon products more attractive in the economy than higher-carbon products, while at the same time facilitating our domestic industry to remain competitive. It is because we cannot price carbon emissions that our market is currently floundering. The reason is that they are an externality. When I produce a piece of paper, I take account of the cost of the ingredients for the paper, the energy I will use, my overheads, my marketing spend, my transport and distribution costs, and my profit. However, in the free market exchange with my purchaser, the cost to society of the emission of carbon through that manufacturing process is not currently 355 Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs 16 DECEMBER 2020 Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs 356 and Decarbonisation and Decarbonisation [Jerome Mayhew] First of all, with steel, an independent research project has been undertaken to assess the impact of a border accounted for,because it is dissipated into the environment adjustment tariff on the steel industry. Its conclusions and we cannot put a price on it. That is why we have were that were we to implement a BCA in the United market failure on the price of carbon. Kingdom, it would increase the competitiveness of UK So what do the Government do to try to deal with steel against many of its international competitors, at that market failure? They are left in a very difficult the same time as raising for the Treasury a tax windfall position. They try to change behaviour by announcing of between £270 million and £850 million if that carbon a reduction in targets, making piecemeal regulations as price was set at between £50 and £75 per tonne. and when they become available, and picking innovation winners—we have a list, most recently hydrogen and James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): My hon. modular new nuclear, to name but two. I very much Friend is making an incredibly sophisticated argument. hope the Government have got those expensive choices On international competition, can he tell us what other right. Based on the available evidence I believe that they countries are doing? For example, is the EU considering have, but that is the point: only a properly functioning something along these lines? market finds the best way to allocate capital, with its invisible use of the combined knowledge of the sum of Jerome Mayhew: My hon. Friend has anticipated a all the participants in that market. No Government can point in my speech match that combined wisdom. that I was coming to in a few minutes. He is absolutely Our current approach to carbon pricing simply does right that, just in July this year, the EU started a formal not work. If we raise the cost of energy with our higher consultation on the implementation of the border carbon cost of carbon, our industry simply becomes uncompetitive, adjustment process for the entire European Union—and as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) not just there, but he will have to wait a moment or two pointed out a moment ago. Manufacturing simply moves before I come on to the other exciting news. abroad, or it goes bust and its place is taken by the raft Let us look at steel. We can get a huge amount of tax of imports from higher-carbon countries—in addition benefit, plus increased competition, that will give a fair, to the very high cost of carbon in the import process competitive advantage to our domestic steel. and transport—like China. The result is damaging to jobs. It is, of course, damaging to our business. It is very Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): I damaging to our balance of trade. It is very damaging commend my hon. Friend and his campaign for border to our tax base and it is damaging to the climate. All in carbon adjustment payments, which makes absolute all, it is a damaging disaster. sense. There is no reason why people who are not green Border carbon adjustment can transform that process: should get a competitive advantage over those countries charge imports from a high- carbon economy the same that are leading in the battle to become carbon neutral. carbon cost as we impose on our domestic industry via My question is a somewhat technical one: we have a a BCA and the problem is solved. There would be no very complex economy, how do we work out which incentive for our manufacturers to base production products need border carbon adjustment payments and abroad, since the costs would be equalised. Foreign which ones do not, or do we just focus on one key companies would no longer have an unfair trade advantage. industry, or do we try to do it across the board? In fact, it would provide them with a direct incentive to reduce carbon usage in their domestic environment to Jerome Mayhew: I thank my hon. Friend for his avoid corrective tariffs. From a policy perspective—I intervention. The answer is that there are many different am using China as an example—the Chinese Government ways that we could approach it. The simplest would be would have a choice: either their exports pay a carbon to choose the five or six key carbon-heavy industries price at our border and the money goes to our Exchequer; and start with them. As we get more knowledge of how or they create a carbon price in their domestic market to implement this kind of scheme, we could spread out and they get to keep the money themselves. There is, to the wider economy. I suggest that the best way to do therefore, a really positive incentive internationally for that would be to look at the carbon-emitting credentials carbon reduction and the benefits to be spread. After of the energy market in the third country and assess in all, climate change knows no borders. Better still, using broad terms what its carbon contribution is. For example, the same calculation for border carbon adjustment but in China, the coal contribution to the energy mix is this time in reverse, our own factories would get the between 70% and 80% and we would use that as the benefit of a carbon cost rebate at the border when they basis for the carbon contribution of its imports. When export, making their exports both cheaper and more we get a bit more sophisticated, we could look at giving profitable, increasing our competitiveness already on rebates to individual businesses that can demonstrate the international market. that they have a low-carbon approach despite the high- There are many ways that you can skin this particular carbon attitude of their country as a whole. That would cat, Madam Deputy Speaker. We can either design a benefit behaviour and would not be protectionist, but system whereby all products coming in or out of the would merely be a fair assessment of the carbon cost of United Kingdom have their carbon contribution assessed, transactions. or, if that is considered to be too complex, we can take Moving on to energy, we naturally assume that we baby steps. We can start off by applying a BCA towards create all the energy that we use in this country domestically, the five or six most carbon-intensive industries and then but that is not the case. On average, we import, via take it from there. We would start with steel, fertiliser, undersea interconnectors, about 7% of the electricity petrochemicals, aluminium and energy. I will take two that we use in this country. Members may recall that, examples from that list by way of explanation. last May, we trumpeted in the press that we had a 357 Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs 16 DECEMBER 2020 Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs 358 and Decarbonisation and Decarbonisation two-week period in which we were coal free. We had Best of all—I have saved the best till last—by freeing coal-free electricity for two weeks. That was very exciting, up the ability to price domestic carbon emissions at a but what the newspapers failed to mention was that, realistic, behaviour-changing level, we can unleash the during that two-week period, we imported from Holland magic of the free market to seek out the most efficient 40 GW of coal-fired electricity. The reason that we did solutions to low-carbon production. We do not need that was not that we lacked generating capacity in the the Government to pick winners and subsidise industry United Kingdom, but that it was cheaper to import once a market is working properly. Give a price to coal-fired electricity from mainland Europe than it was carbon, and that is exactly what we will create: a many- to use our own. The reason why it was cheaper was that headed monster of innovation, entrepreneurialism, it was entirely tax-free, whereas we imposed a carbon dynamism and efficient, productive capital growing our tax on the generation of our own domestic electricity. low-carbon future. Unbelievably, we actually incentivise the importation of This future, if we are brave enough to embrace it high-carbon coal-generated electricity at the expense of before other nations, rather than just following, and if our domestic manufacturing processes. How can that we are bold enough to allow the reshaping of the economy be right? A border carbon adjustment would sort that by demand rather than by direction, will equip our out in a jiffy. industry as leaders in low-carbon manufacturing. They What single better way is there to forward this will be leaders because they will be swimming in their Government’s levelling-up agenda than by putting in natural element, whereas their international competitors place the economic conditions for the market to want to will still be struggling to react to the short-term Government re-industrialise in the UK, and all that with no need for green initiatives and schemes that we all currently suffer Government subsidies. In fact, not only does it not from. It is a lead that could generate exports and growth require Government subsidies but it will actually produce in this country. an annual windfall for the Treasury year after year. What is stopping us from delivering on the Prime Working out how big that windfall might be has a Minister’s vision of a low-carbon, dynamic economy? number of imponderables in it, but the Grantham Research Some worry about a protectionism challenge at the Institute of Climate Change and the Environment has World Trade Organisation, but with a BCA applied in produced a report on this and, again, using the assessment an open and transparent manner, nothing could be of a carbon price between £50 and £75 a tonne, starting further from the truth. This policy is about removing in 2020 and working up towards 2030, it assessed that unfair competition, not creating it. In any event, WTO the gross amount that the Treasury could recover under rules expressly allow for tariffs whose purpose is to this process would max out at £36.7 billion a year. I protect stress that that is the gross amount. Members may well take the view that, rather like VAT, this is a tax that is “human, animal or plant life and health” consumer based and would impact poorer households or disproportionately as a percentage of their gross income. “to conserve exhaustible natural resources”. The Government might very well want to use some of Those are two exceptions tailor-made for this kind of that £36.7 billion to cushion the blow and to make it tariff. more acceptable for lower-income families, perhaps by investing in insulation for their houses or other measures. More practically, if the UK were to join the United States of America, our friends in the European Union Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): My hon. Friend and other countries to establish the principle of BCAs is making a fascinating speech—despite starting off at COP26, that would be a game changer, because that talking about sheep, he has managed to keep everyone’s would ensure their practical acceptance. Others worry enthusiastic attention throughout. A lot of emissions- that putting forward such an ambitious proposal at intensive British industries will already find it difficult COP26 runs the risk of failing to achieve the consensus to compete in the global marketplace. As we begin to that would allow the PR men to claim a stunning encourage the use of carbon capture and clean hydrogen success. It might, but the risk of failure is the price of by heavy industry, they will face higher production ambition, so should we give up on our ambition? Of costs. Would a border carbon adjustment enable heavy course not. industry to decarbonise while preventing job losses, and is that something the Treasury would also find attractive? Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): I have no doubt that my hon. Friend is right about the Jerome Mayhew: My hon. Friend has hit the nail on application of WTO rules, but what happens if a free the head, because one of the key benefits of a border trade agreement is already in place? Would that free carbon adjustment is that it would allow us to decarbonise, trade agreement have to be renegotiated? Suppose we and allow our heavy industry to accept the pain of have a free trade agreement with the EU and we want to higher energy costs, therefore letting the market work in put a carbon tariff on German steel, which is very carbon our domestic market to incentivise the development of intensive. Are we going to be tied in knots by what we lower-carbon technology,while at the same time protecting might have already agreed? How does he think that would it from being undercut by countries that are taking a be resolved? little longer to go on the low-carbon journey. We are not going to be spending money; we are going Jerome Mayhew: The example that my hon. Friend to be making money. That money could be used as the gives—that of Germany—would fall neatly into the Treasury knows best. It does not mean that the money European Union, which is consulting on this very issue, is taken out of the economy, because it could be put so in that case, it would be a coalition of the willing to straight back in—in productivity-enhancing tax cuts, allow us to go forward, I hope, with a form of equality I hope, but that is up to the Treasury. between the European emissions trading scheme, or its 359 Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs 16 DECEMBER 2020 Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs 360 and Decarbonisation and Decarbonisation [Jerome Mayhew] The stars are aligning for border carbon adjustments, if only the Government will believe in the Prime Minister’s successor, and the approach that we would take ourselves. vision of a post-Brexit Britain and be bold. However, I accept that that would be up to country-by- country negotiations. 5.53 pm Is there international support for this approach? Do The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth we have a realistic prospect of bringing the world (Kwasi Kwarteng): My hon. Friend the Member for community together and with us at COP26? I say that Broadland (Jerome Mayhew) gave a compelling and there is, because President-elect Biden has already spoken fascinating speech. He elucidated many of the technical about “carbon adjustment fees” against difficulties associated with imposing unilaterally, as he “countries that are failing to meet their climate and environmental was arguing, a carbon border tax. My hon. Friend the obligations.” Member for South Cambridgeshire (Anthony Browne) hit the nail on the head when he asked, “Should we do That is a clear indicator that the incoming Administration this unilaterally?” I am going to start by saying that, in in America is taking this seriously. I know that there is my view and in the Government’s view, this is an many a slip between a statement of intent and action, important subject but it has to be treated as part of a but it is something that we can potentially get behind at multilateral effort. We are responsible for 1% of carbon COP26. The European Union, as has been mentioned, emissions globally, and if we impose a tax unilaterally just this July launched a formal consultation on the on carbon-emitting products coming into this country, implementation of a border carbon adjustment, and it we may well be disadvantaging our own consumers if is worth noting that for the President of the Commission—I others around the world are not placing such a tax. The think it was part of her manifesto when she was first Government feel that multilateral co-operation in this appointed— this is one of the key objectives for her regard is by far the best way to prevent carbon leakage. presidency. Another thing I would say to my hon. Friend is that Anthony Browne: I commend my hon. Friend on his by focusing on carbon emissions, he is really discussing absolutely fascinating speech. It is clearly good to try to the thorny issue of carbon accounting. Ultimately, the get global co-operation on this as a coalition of the intellectual difficulty of accounting for carbon is the willing, as he put it, among as many countries and broader problem of whether the carbon is produced trading partners as possible. If we fail to do that, does abroad or at home. In that respect, I would like to refer he think that the UK should go on its own, or would him to what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the that be too difficult and put us too much out on a limb Exchequer said in his announcement in this Chamber in the global trading system? a little more than a month ago. I am proud that he announced that the UK would become the first G20 Jerome Mayhew: I say that we go it alone. I think it is country to make Taskforce on Climate-related Financial one of the great freedoms that we have from Brexit. We Disclosures-aligned climate-related financial disclosures have taken the trouble to get our independence. What fully mandatory across the economy. use is it if we are not prepared to use it—if we are too I am not saying that my hon. Friend said this, but I scared to use our independence to make a bold statement do not think it is right to say that we are somehow and say, “This is the right thing to do. We are going to laggards on the issue of carbon accounting. In fact, I do it. Follow us if you like.”? would say that we are taking a leadership role on this subject. He alluded to the fact that the EU is looking at Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I am delighted how it can implement a carbon import regime with a to hear the depth with which the hon. Member is tax on carbon-emitting products coming into the EU, exploring this subject. What he has been saying is and we are absolutely engaged with the EU in discussing fascinating. Does he agree, though, that if it is about the that. We feel that that is part of the multilateral approach. right thing to do, the first thing we must do is to stop If my hon. Friend takes a broad view of this subject the subsidies and tax concessions that currently go to internationally, he will see that 2020 has seen far greater carbon industries domestically, and that it only makes progress than any previous year. Only a couple of sense as part of a whole package if we do that? months ago the Chinese Government pledged to achieve a net zero carbon target in 2060, and that is incredibly Jerome Mayhew: The hon. Member recognises that significant. I remember when I was first appointed to we are on a journey in our decarbonisation of industry. this job, someone said to me that what we did in the I would be delighted if I managed to persuade the United Kingdom would make no difference if China Minister to accept this one element of the policy without continued along its present path. I am pleased to say rewriting the entire economic agenda for the next period, that China has changed its path and said very clearly but it is clearly true that, over time, we will be moving that it has set a net zero target for 2060. The Japanese away from petrochemicals, and the economic case—the followed suit soon afterwards, adopting our target of business case—for subsidising what will soon become 2050, as did the South Koreans. So the auspices for stranded assets becomes less and less clear. international co-operation on the measure that my hon. Our hosting of COP26 would be the perfect forum to Friend has described are actually very good, and there crystallise these disparate movements that we have already is a chance that if we cannot reach an agreement at identified around the world into a coherent whole. COP26 next November, we may well be advancing What better objective for the conference could there be? along the lines that he suggests in the not-too-distant Politics is full of mis-steps and compromise. Very rarely future. I have to stress that multilateral co-operation on do the stars align in favour of a truly inspiring act of how we price carbon and how we account for carbon in political and economic leadership—one that can transform the round is far more constructive than placing a unilateral the future of our country and the world for the better. tax in the way that he has described. 361 Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs 16 DECEMBER 2020 Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs 362 and Decarbonisation and Decarbonisation One thing I would say about the figures that my hon. I am very happy to take up that point. Of course, Friend very ably quoted in regard to the benefit to the I discuss with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor all Treasury is that there would obviously be behavioural the time how we can capture carbon accounting more impacts, so it would be difficult for me to model the effectively in order to pursue the goal that we all seek, consumer demand for products that had been taxed in which is a net zero world and certainly a net zero British the way that he has described. I would be interested to economy. have a conversation with him about the assumptions behind the analysis that he very ably referred to in his Sir Bernard Jenkin: Will my right hon. Friend give excellent speech. way?

Sir Bernard Jenkin: My right hon. Friend has said Kwasi Kwarteng: No, I have to make some progress. something that I regard as significant. Yes, we are going Ahead of COP26, obviously, as the hon. Member for to try to achieve a multilateral approach at COP26, but Brent North (Barry Gardiner) mentioned, we have to if we do not succeed, we will consider a more unilateral look at carbon accounting in the round, and we have to approach. I am bound to say at this particular juncture, look at how we reduce incentives for carbon-emitting when the term “level playing field” is so commonly activity here in the UK and in the context of the spoken about in respect of a certain negotiation, that it imported carbon that we bring in from other countries. would surely be a distortion of international competition All these issues have to be addressed in the round. for some countries to be doing their best to deal with climate change and for other countries to be exploiting What I wanted to say, and have said very clearly, is those efforts. If that is not a distortion of genuine free that we are actual leaders in this subject. We are actually trade, I do not know what is. I think that the unilateral driving ahead mandatory TCFD financial disclosures. approach is justified. There are no other countries in the G20 that have done that. We passed the net zero amendment to the Climate Change Act 2008 last year. Again, even though other Kwasi Kwarteng: This is an interesting debate. My countries have made public statements supporting that hon. Friend suggests that a unilateral approach, punishing policy, they have yet to enshrine it in their in their legal other countries for not adopting the climate change codes. We are showing leadership. We intend fully to agenda—that is effectively what we would be doing—might continue showing leadership and providing that sort of work. As I have had to say repeatedly, I think that a steer at COP26 in Glasgow. multilateral approach is the best way forward. There is an open debate about the effectiveness of a unilateral Jerome Mayhew: The Minister has repeatedly said approach when every other country in the world would that the best way to proceed is by multilateral agreement, not be disadvantaging these products. and I absolutely agree. It is wonderful that we have COP26comingupnextyear,anditistheperfectopportunity Barry Gardiner: Does the Minister recognise that at to show multilateral leadership. Will the Minister therefore the moment, £10.5 billion of public money goes from commit to the House that we will make border carbon the Treasury as subsidy to fossil fuels in this country? adjustments a core objective of COP26? That is more than any other country in the EU, where the average is about £6.5 billion. Therefore, if we are to Kwasi Kwarteng: It is not in my power to make that go down the route suggested by the hon. Member for commitment to the House. As my hon. Friend knows, I Broadland (Jerome Mayhew) and his colleagues on the am not the COP26 president, and I suggest that he Government Benches, it is important that the UK shows directs that question to my right hon. Friend the Business, good faith and does not punish other countries for what Energy and Industrial Strategy Secretary, who is the it is doing worse itself. To punish those countries for the president of COP26. However, I can assure my hon. carbon encapsulated in their industries while subsidising Friend that the issue is absolutely at the centre of the our own fossil fuel industries more than all the rest wider debate about climate change and of what I might would seem rather ridiculous. call international energy diplomacy, and I am sure it will discussed very seriously at COP26 next year. Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. That is exactly what I was trying to say with Sir Bernard Jenkin: I just want to put something on regard to TCFD disclosures. We have to look at carbon the record. The hon. Member for Brent North (Barry accounting and carbon pricing in the round. It is a Gardiner) quoted a £10 billion subsidy figure for fossil global market and we have to look at what we are doing fuels. Will the Minister confirm that the Government on discouraging carbon-emitting behaviour in the wider do not accept that figure? It is based on things such as context of international trade. That is a fair point. the fact that we charge only 5% VAT on domestic fuel instead of 20%. It is typical of the EU to regard a low Barry Gardiner: So will the Minister speak with the tax to help poorer households afford their fuel bills as a Chancellor about how we can reduce the subsidies to subsidy. One of the reasons we are leaving the EU is fossil fuels in this country—domestically—so that some that it puts out rubbish propaganda such as that. We do of the innovative ideas that the hon. Member for Broadland not subsidise fossil fuels, and I hope the Minister will (Jerome Mayhew) has put forward this evening might make that clear. be taken forward with credibility? [Interruption.] Kwasi Kwarteng: My hon. Friend is right. It is pretty Kwasi Kwarteng: Sorry—I was just respectfully pointing extraordinary to say that we are somehow the laggards out to my hon. Friend the Member for South on this subject. When a country such as Germany is Cambridgeshire that he cannot intervene on an intervention. phasing out its coal dependency only in 2038, it is a bit 363 Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs 16 DECEMBER 2020 Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs 364 and Decarbonisation and Decarbonisation [Kwasi Kwarteng] In fact, no more serious subject could be debated here, and I commend him for bringing it to our attention, for extraordinary for Opposition Members to make that debating it in a very open and, dare I say, friendly way, claim. We are very much the leaders in this arena, and and for giving one of the best speeches I have heard my hon. Friend was quite right to point that out. from the Back Benches this Parliament in terms of the thoroughness with which he presented his material and Barry Gardiner rose— the passion with which he stated his arguments.

Kwasi Kwarteng: I am not going to take any more Question put and agreed to. interventions, I am afraid. As my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland has 6.6 pm ably demonstrated, this is a fascinating subject, and it will continue to exercise many minds and much passion. House adjourned. 125WH 16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 126WH

of course, is devolved and it is therefore important that Westminster Hall we hear the voices from all our four nations. First, and I am sure that the Minister will address in her remarks, I Wednesday 16 December 2020 would welcome an update on the consultation process. What work is being done to develop the strategy and [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] when does her Department expect to publish the revised strategy? National Tree Strategy I turn now to the issue of targets. As we know, the [Relevant documents: e-petition 300050, Legal rights for Government are committed to achieving net zero carbon ancient trees.] emissions by 2050. Although I appreciate that there is considerable debate over the ambition of that date, if 9.30 am the Government are to achieve this goal, the UK will Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I remind hon. require a major expansion of tree cover. Despite the Members of the new arrangements for Westminster role that trees play in combating the climate crisis, there Hall so that social distancing can be respected. I remind is no formal way to set targets regarding trees in England. Members that they must arrive for the start of debates In its sixth carbon budget, which was published last in Westminster Hall and are expected to remain for the week, the Committee on Climate Change was clear that wind-ups, provided there is space in the room. Members the UK needs to do more. According to the committee’s are asked to respect the one-way system around the report, we need to increase tree cover in the UK from room; please exit by the door on the left. Members the current level of 12% to around 20%. This will should sanitise their microphones before they use them, require up to 70,000 hectares of new trees and woods to using the cleaning materials provided, and dispose of be established each year. On our current trajectory, them—that is the cleaning materials, not the however, we will get nowhere near that recommendation. microphones—as they leave the room. Take last year as an example. The provisional Forestry Commission figures showed that just 13,460 hectares of Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): I beg to move, new trees and woodland were created, of which only That this House has considered the National Tree Strategy. 17% was in England. That leads me to the Environment It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Bill, which I feel has a gaping hole on the issue of tree Mr Hollobone, and I declare an interest as a metro planting. In Committee, the Government were clearly Mayor. reluctant to insert targets in the Bill, as was seen with With Parliament’s focus understandably elsewhere at new clause 17, which was tabled by my hon. Friend the the moment, I am grateful to the Minister, to the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport. shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member Perhaps the Minister will take another look at new for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) clause 19, which I tabled in Committee with the support and to hon. Members for being here in Westminster of the Woodland Trust. It would ensure that the Hall this morning. I also thank the Petitions Committee Government prepared a tree strategy for England and for linking this debate to the “Legal rights for ancient produced targets for the protection, restoration and trees” petition, to which 17,000 people have added their expansion of trees and woodland. The proposal has a name. great deal of public support. Those on the Bill Committee Our country—indeed, our planet—faces two major should have received a compendium of comments from environmental crises: climate change and biodiversity Woodland Trust members, which show a thirst for collapse. The principle that trees harness the power to meaningful and binding targets. I invite the Minister to help us overcome both those crises is one on which we confirm whether the England tree strategy will include can all agree. I hope, too, that we can agree that, as the statutory targets and to say something about the target- famous Chinese proverb puts it, “The best time to plant setting measures in the Environment Bill. a tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is now.” Of course, this is not just a stats game. Quantity is We should take encouragement from the fact that important, but that should not mean that we compromise every single major political party committed at last on quality. We urgently need more trees, but they must year’s general election to significantly increasing tree be the right trees, in the right places and delivered in the cover. From capturing carbon to reducing soil erosion, right way. A good place to start is how we calculate the from improving air quality to alleviating flooding, and expansion of trees and woods in England. Rather than from supporting biodiversity to promoting health and looking simply at a number-of-trees-planted figure, which wellbeing, the benefits that trees bring to our natural is problematic for several reasons, we need a standardised, environment, our economy and our society cannot be reliable national metric, such as the percentage of land overlooked or overstated. area covered by trees. We also need to establish a series However, the fact remains that we do not have enough of sub-targets, including for the expansion of new native trees and we are not yet looking after the trees that we woodland, trees outside woods and natural regeneration. have adequately. That is why the England tree strategy I will move on to what trees mean to people, because is so important. It represents a golden opportunity to one of the most obvious lessons of the current public rethink our approach to trees. Moreover, it is a chance health crisis has been the importance that people place to show the world how the UK is leading the way in on green space. For many people, especially those living addressing the climate emergency,by championing nature- in flats and those without a garden, the local park has based solutions ahead of COP26. been a lifeline without which lockdown would have I should say from the outset that I will focus my been even more of a struggle. I believe that the natural remarks on the forthcoming England tree strategy, but world should be not a faraway, abstract concept, but a this debate is entitled “National Tree Strategy”. Forestry, part of our everyday lives—a notion that holds true 127WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 128WH

[Dan Jarvis] previously. As she knows, it is now one year on from the flooding and devastation that battered our communities regardless of whether we live in Barnsley or Benbecula, in South Yorkshire. Sheffield or Shetland. The Woodland Trust’s “Space for The Minister will be aware that I wrote to her and the people” research highlights what needs to be done in Secretary of State last month following a constructive this respect. Across the UK, only 21% of people live South Yorkshire flooding roundtable. Perhaps she will within 500 metres of accessible woodland, and 27% do give a quick update on the points that I raised in the not have a larger accessible woodland within 4 km of letter. First, where are we on confirming the provisional their home. funds allocated to us through the medium-term plan By committing to increase the number of people who and grant-in-aid proposals? Secondly, where are we on are able to benefit from trees and woodland in our our innovative proposal to work together to deliver nine towns and cities, the England tree strategy could help to shovel-ready projects to protect 860 homes and critical transform our relationship with nature. That is why I elements of our regional infrastructure? Such a commitment believe that local authorities should be mandated to from the Government would show that they are serious produce statutory local tree plans. Crucially, the plans about working hand in hand with local leaders to level would need to be town hall led rather than Whitehall up, tackle the climate emergency and solve the problems driven. That means ensuring that local government has faced by our communities. the power, money and capacity to deliver green reform. I said at the start that we do not have enough trees I am pleased to say that Barnsley Council is well on the and that we are not adequately looking after the ones way, having approved its tree planting strategy back in that we have. The importance of the latter must be September. We are actively involved in supporting this recognised in the strategy. There have been at least work at regional level. 20 serious plant pests and diseases inadvertently imported This point may be better directed at the Minister’s into the UK in the last 30 years. We are on course to colleagues at the Ministry of Housing, Communities lose 150 million mature trees and 2 billion saplings and and Local Government, but currently London’s Mayor seedlings to ash dieback disease in the next 10 to 20 years, is the only Mayor in England with the power to produce and we have experienced a catastrophic loss of historic a binding environment strategy. Despite the lack of trees. Ancient woodlands cover less than 3% of our land devolved powers, we have still developed a plan in and, once lost, can never be replaced. The England tree South Yorkshire to reach net zero by 2040 at the latest. strategy must commit to preventing any further loss My ambition is for woodland creation and tree planting and to the restoration of all plantation on ancient to play a pivotal role in getting us there. woodland sites. Wehave strongly supported plans to grow the Northern I appreciate that there are plenty of other issues to forest, and have recently recruited a woodland creation speak about. I have not touched on funding structures, officer to work with our local nature partnership and the relationship between agriculture and forestry, and other partners. The project of the Northern forest is much more besides. I will conclude by saying that the close to my heart. I was part of the team that put the need for an ambitious, fully resourced and long-term first trees in the ground, I planted the millionth tree, plan for trees has never been greater. The decisions that and last year I co-ordinated a letter, to which more than the Government make on the forthcoming strategy will 120 cross-party northern leaders added their support, shape the viability of our country and relationship with calling on the Prime Minister to back the Northern the natural world. By investing in our trees and woods, forest initiative. we invest in healthier and happier futures and lay the Let me explain for hon. Members not familiar with it foundation for a legacy of which we can all be proud. It that the Northern forest will see 50 million trees planted is a purpose around which I hope we can all unite. over the next 25 years in the north of England by the Woodland Trust and its community forest partners. I Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): The debate can am proud to say that more than 2.1 million trees are last until 11 o’clock. I am obliged to call the Labour already in the ground. Sadly, woodland cover in our party spokesman no later than 10.37 am. The guideline northern counties is only 7.6% ,which is far lower than limits are 10 minutes for the Opposition and 10 minutes England’saverage of 10%, so the Northern Forest initiative for the Minister, and Dan Jarvis will have three minutes seeks to address that disparity. The forest will span to sum up the debate at the end. There are six stellar 120 miles, connecting the towns and cities of Liverpool, Back Benchers seeking to contribute to the debate. If Manchester and Lancaster to the west, and Sheffield, the time is allocated evenly, each Back Bencher will have Leeds and Hull to the east, benefiting 13 million residents eight or nine minutes. If we can share the time equally, and generating £2.5 billion in social, economic and that will be best for all. We will start with Chris Clarkson. environmental benefits. I very much hope that the England tree strategy will commit to supporting the delivery of 9.43 am the Northern forest. Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con): Levelling up should not just be about new trains and May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your skills programmes, crucial though they are. Regional chairmanship, Mr Hollobone? I will not use the full inequality affects every part of people’s lives, including— nine minutes. crucially—their health and wellbeing. Projects such as I thank the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan the Northern forest should be afforded the status that Jarvis) for securing this debate and for an extremely they deserve. Given the role that trees play in flood thoughtful speech. I am glad he touched on the Northern prevention, it would be remiss of me not to say a few forest, as that is what I intend to talk about. As a proud words about a topic with which the Minister is very Lancastrian, that is the highest praise I can give to a familiar. She and I have discussed it one or two times Yorkshire MP. 129WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 130WH

As some Members know, I like trees. In fact, my first With an environmentally sensitive approach, planting ten-minute rule Bill called for all future housing the right trees in the right areas and ensuring that these developments to have tree-lined streets. I was particularly are maintained as part of an ambitious long-term pleased when the Government adopted that proposal as arboricultural strategy that is fixed on our 2050 goal, part of the new planning regulations, and so, with a we should return around 30% of our country to nature 100% success rate, I have not introduced any since. That in our lifetimes. In that way we can become, in the particular endeavour led Quentin Letts to compare me words of the Latin playwright Caecilius Statius, to Basil Fotherington-Tomas, which caused some “Serit arbores quae alteri saeclo prosint”— amusement in the Tea Room, but, given the other those who plant trees for future generations. nickname I recently acquired courtesy of the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), I will take it. My dendrological exuberance does not just extend to 9.48 am planning. The UK’shorticulture sector is worth £24 billion Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. and supports more than 560,000 jobs. Not only will it Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) play a vital role in aiding our ambition to reach net zero on securing this debate and on his speech which set out by 2050; it will play an important part in our national some important points. As a Twigg, I am not sure recovery from covid-19. The Government’s ambition to whether I should declare an interest in this debate, but I recognise the importance of trees through a national did think that, as a Twigg, I should participate. I stress tree strategy is a part of this. that Twigg, in my sense, has two g’s at the end. I recently contributed to an article in the Conservative In my constituency, Widnes, west Runcorn and Hale Environment Network’s net zero northern powerhouse village are not blessed with large areas of woodland—most series, setting out the importance of the Northern forest. of the woodland only covers fairly small areas. The It has never been more necessary to secure a future for north of England has significantly less woodland cover generations to come and it is essential that policies and than the rest of England, despite being home to 30 million practices are put in place to protect trees and woods, to people. We have just 7.6% woodland cover, which is safeguard and buffer ancient woodlands and to stimulate significantly lower than the England average. new planting. The Woodland Trust is working with the Mersey In November 2018, the first tree of the Northern forest, City of Trees, the White Rose forest, HEYwoods forest was planted down the road from my Heywood and the Community Forest Trust to create a new Northern and Middleton constituency in Radcliffe, where the forest. This will increase woodland cover, while bringing planting of 200 saplings began as part of the Government’s endless benefits and opportunities to the people of the £5.7 million investment. The Woodland Trust and the north. The Northern forest is already in progress, and partnership behind the Northern forest estimate that it once completed it will help tackle climate change; encourage will cost about £500 million to develop it by planting nature-rich landscapes; reduce the risk of flooding, 50 million trees over 25 years, trebling the current which has already been referred to; create thousands of planting rate across the area. As an area, we have less new jobs; of course provide cool and clean air in our than 8% tree coverage—one of the lowest in the towns and cities; and improve health and wellbeing. country—so it is ideal territory for a new forest. As a This is all very positive, but we know much more has major infrastructure project, it is predicted to generate to be done. In the time I have, I want to talk mainly about £2.5 billion of social, economic and environmental about how more can be achieved to increase woodland benefits. cover in northern towns, such as the ones I represent in The presence of trees and other greenery in our Runcorn and Widnes. In the last century, places such as environment has a discernible effect on the physical and Widnes, have faced a devastating environmental impact mental wellbeing of us all, as well as being responsible from the chemical industry, which dominated the town. for cleaner air and playing a role in addressing climate People said Widnes could be smelt before they got to it. change. As someone who lives in a flat, I say to the hon. There were many chemical factories nearby to the Newtown Member for Barnsley Central that he is absolutely right area, where I am from and which was demolished in the that those parks were essential during lockdown. slum clearance programme in the 1960s, well into the Local authorities in Greater Manchester, 20th century, but there were no trees to speak of. All my Northumberland and Cumbria were selected by the family members tell me that they cannot recall hearing Government in August to help kickstart nature’s recovery or seeing any bees or, for that matter, many flying on a countrywide scale. As part of this, our combined insects.The chemical pollution had seen to that. I am authority in Greater Manchester will receive about pleased to say that the old, polluted Widnes has now £1 million of funding to set up a pilot study for a local been transformed, since the early 1970s—not least because nature recovery strategy, in conjunction with Natural of the work of Halton Borough Council. It is now a England. This will kickstart the green recovery with place that people want to move to and live in practical and locally-led solutions, bringing a broad The Mersey forest project and Halton Council have range of groups together to identify the green priorities made some welcome improvements in the number of for restoring nature. Our City of Trees will become a trees in recent times, especially in street and urban tree beacon for this important work. Weshould also encourage planting. However, why should urban areas such as companies to align their own strategy for zero carbon Widnes and Runcorn have to be content with only with the opportunity that planting trees offers to offset street planting, and small public space tree planting? Of emissions. If, as is predicted, the Northern forest offsets course those are important, but we need to plant many around 7 million tonnes of carbon once planted, it more trees to increase woodland and create a new and could really help make a dent in a corporation’s carbon significant woodland with native British trees. It is a footprint. question of woods that people recognise as woodland. 131WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 132WH

[Derek Twigg] which talk about hundreds of millions—in fact, billions—of trees over the next 10 to 30 years. We do need billions of The Halton local plans, including the delivery and trees to be planted in that period. allocations local plan, are very much based on housing Councils should be at the forefront of the re-wooding and industrial development, but do not seem to give the of our communities, especially in towns such as Runcorn same weight to tree planting and developing forest and and Widnes, which are highly urbanised but still have biodiversity. Why should current green and green-belt enough land within the borough boundaries to land be taken for development, rather than for the accommodate and sustain significant tree planting and, creation of larger woods with all the community and therefore, the development of woods in the future. environmental benefits that that would bring? One of Developments in my constituency, such as the towns the largest areas in my constituency is a private golf fund initiative in Runcorn—if that proposal comes course, which has a lot of trees. There is a proposal to off—will give opportunities for more tree planting. use a significant part of that land for housing. That Again, there are opportunities with the Unlock Runcorn should never be allowed. It is right in the heart of canal initiative, to restore the locks and the links to the Widnes. We want more trees and more space for our Manchester ship canal, but we need the funding to communities. do that. I see that today the proposals for controversial planning In summary, Mr Hollobone, the main ask is that reforms in England have been revised—according to the Government,workingwithlocalauthorities,fundsignificant local press—after the new housing targets prompted a new sustainable tree planting and sustainable woods. backlash among many Conservative MPs. We also hear We want people to see what they know and recognise as from the press that a computer-based formula used to woods, and for every single town that has the space, to decide where houses should be located has been updated be able to have a wood planted and see it become to focus on cities and urban areas in the north and sustainable and develop over the years. These are new midlands. If that is true it is appalling. That brings me woods, which people with no access to a car can easily back to the point about whether it is okay for urban get to and enjoy, where they can have the boost to their areas such as Runcorn and Widnes to be concerned wellbeing that we know being among the trees brings. with tree planting schemes, but not for them to create From the pandemic that we have been through, we new significant woodland. know how important it is for people to get out walking. Yesterday the all-party group on gardening and I want to see that happen. It is key that every town horticulture wrote to me, and I think what it said was should have a new wood, where they have land available; important. The group told me: most towns have that land. The northern towns should “A large proportion of the UK’s horticultural industry is not be lumbered with having to build lots more houses concerned that growers may not have the ability and confidence and industrial developments because the leafy parts of to increase the production of young trees to the levels required. the south have risen up against us, as we have seen in the They need to feel confident that there will be an increased market of significant volume at the end of the growing cycles. Competing press today. environmental schemes may lead to landowners perceiving greater My final point is that local authorities should have benefits from taking other initiatives (such as solar panels) rather funded tree officers. Schools and local organisations than planting trees. Some Government policies and structures are should be at the heart of tree planting, working alongside standing in the way of growers having such confidence”. local authorities. Promoting tree establishment is very important. “The right trees need to be planted in the right place to 9.56 am maximise the long-term environmental, social and economic benefits Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): It is a pleasure to of urban trees, as well as ensure that they do not perish and can survive. This means that species are identified, sourced, and serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, and planted in the environment best suited to their needs in order that thank you for such kind words at the beginning. It is they may flourish. The planting of the tree is a crucial part of the always nice to be considered esteemed. process, but it is but one part: tree establishment is equally as I congratulate the hon. Member for Barnsley Central important. In particular, young tree maintenance is essential to (Dan Jarvis) on his brilliant speech. Many of the points enabling a newly planted tree to establish and thrive.” he raised are relevant to my constituency in Totnes and How often do we see that newly planted trees are south Devon. I am sure there are many issues on which struggling because they have been through drought or we shall be able to work together. It is a privilege to have not been watered properly? follow my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and “Tree officers, for example, are the custodians of our urban Middleton (Chris Clarkson). If wisdom grew on trees, trees, but years of under-investment in public sector tree management he would surely be a bush. have left many of them struggling.” My constituency is incredible fortunate. In the north Of course, some local authorities do not have tree it has a national park in the form of Dartmoor, and in management officers to speak of. the south there is a large area of outstanding natural “Trees planted in urban settings need maintenance which has beauty. We are incredibly privileged that it is so well not always happened in the past, as responsibility is often passed between local government departments. Ensuring that local looked after and cultivated by charities and local governments have the capabilities to maintain trees in the long government organisations, to ensure that tourists and term is crucial to ensuring that planting efforts are not wasted. residents alike are able to benefit from it, in every The right professionals with the right resources are needed, but shape and form. The important point is that it is in under-investment in the industry in recent years has left many demand. People want more, not less. They do not want struggling.” development to ride over their green spaces, and to see It is a matter of quality, not just quantity, in native trees. those beautiful hills, moorlands and peat bogs ruined We want biodiversity and hedgerows as well. We have by too many properties sprouting up left, right and seen commitment from the various political parties, centre. It is the same in our cities and towns, where our 133WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 134WH urban parks and our royal parks have been a safeguard The use of common land, and what it can be used for, and sanctuary for many people over the course of this has been routinely overlooked. The historical right to year. graze on common land is no longer utilised in many It is important to recognise the relationship that we cases. Can the Government look at a programme in all have with our green spaces and how we might which people are incentivised to plant trees and to cultivate them in future years. The Government have restore common land to what it was before? How might taken some appropriate steps over the past weeks and we engage with those who do that? months. The England tree strategy consultation, which The point has been well made by the National Farmers has had over 20,000 submissions and is due to report Union that taxation must never get in the way of those back in the spring, is incredibly welcome. who are trying to plant trees. Agricultural property In the course of my remarks, I will recommend how relief or business property relief may not be available to we can incentivise and drive demand, in order to plant those who take away their land from farming and put it more trees, create more green spaces and encourage to tree planting. Would the Minister be kind enough to biodiversity. Under the 25-year environment plan, respond as to how we might get around that issue? £5.7 million has been made available to plant 1.8 million I also ask the Government to consider a volunteer trees by 2025. In my constituency, Moor Trees has programme. There is significant concern about our benefited from that to the tune of almost half a million green spaces, and significant engagement on the issue, pounds. Moor Trees is a local organisation, based just so will the Government work with hon. Members on outside Totnes, that has planted 145,000 trees since its both sides of the House to create a volunteer programme establishment—100% of which are native species—restoring to ramp up tree planting and get people more engaged 88 sites and relying on thousands of volunteers. The with local organisations, such as Moor Trees, in other money that is being given to them does not just lead to hon. Members’ constituencies? There is an appetite for the planting of more trees; it leads to the creation of that. If we can do something like that, we will be able to new jobs and the establishment of new sites, where we meet, and go beyond, the target of 70,000 trees a year. can green and improve biodiversity in every shape and In fact, if we recognise that we want 12% more of our form. country to be covered by trees by 2060, that would be a It is important to understand the value and benefit suitable way to do it. that the Agriculture Act 2020 and the Fisheries Act 2020 I am very proud to be the Royal Society for the will have in creating and restoring our countryside and Protection of Birds champion for the cirl bunting. our coastline. We will be able to sequester more carbon, Quite why I am deserving of being a champion for the to ensure that there is sustainability on land and at sea, cirl bunting, I do not know, but I spend many happy and that we can do well by our farmers and fishermen. moments walking the south-west coastal path in south That is certainly something on which I know the hon. Devon looking for it. I have yet to see it, but it is there; I Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke have been told that I may have been looking at the Pollard) would agree with me. All of these are elements wrong bird, which is a slight problem. that give us the chance and the opportunity to improve There is an important point to make about biodiversity. the productivity of our land and to ensure that those We know that if we improve our hedgerows and trees, who do not live on it, but come on holidays or as we can improve biodiversity, which has been hit incredibly visitors to the UK, can benefit from the beauty of what hard over the past 40 to 50 years. Let us use this we have. opportunity to make sure that we are cultivating biodiversity On carbon sequestration, we know that trees are an by using natural species of trees and plants, to help to extremely effective way to sequester carbon but grassland regrow and recultivate that wildlife. goes with that too. By looking at new and innovative Our green spaces must be maintained, whether in techniques, such as regenerative agriculture and no-till urban centres or in the rural countryside—that point farming, we can help to marry up farming and tree was brilliantly made by the hon. Member for Halton planting as effective tools for lowering the emissions (Derek Twigg). The Minister has been a champion of that are created by derelict countryside or out-of-date the issue. I look forward to seeing what happens in the techniques. Environment Bill when it comes back before the We are all stewards of the land. The conversation House. I hope that she will work with us all to shape that has been had today in this Chamber is not a new this opportunity to plant more trees and embody the one. In fact, Disraeli spoke of the Disraeli feudal principle opportunity to give future generations more green jspaces. that we are all stewards of the land to pass it on to the next generation. Weare making exactly the same important point today—that we must pass on our land to future 10.3 am generations in a better state than we received it. Many Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is a pleasure people across my constituency feel extremely strongly to see you in the Chair, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate about that. my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan In the time that I have, I want to ask the Government Jarvis) on securing the debate. I am the parliamentary to consider a few things to improve the level of tree species champion for swifts, so I am in the slightly planting, bearing in mind that the consultation is coming unusual position of campaigning for swift bricks, rather and that, I am sure, many of these submissions have than trees, to protect their habitat; but we all recognise been put forward. There must be an incentivisation the importance of tree planting and rewilding. It is programme for people to plant trees, whether they are a about not just making our towns and cities more pleasant large landholder, a farmer or a small landholder of an places to live, but the benefits for physical and mental allotment or a hedgerow. Whatever it may be, we must health of being able to get out into nature, as hon. find a way to do that. Members have mentioned. 135WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 136WH

[Kerry McCarthy] We have not had the right reassurances about how net gain and biodiversity offsetting will work, particularly As has been said, planting more trees is absolutely over the long term. It is one thing to say that if trees are central to efforts to address the climate change emergency, chopped down to build houses, more trees need to be the ecological emergency and the devastating collapse planted elsewhere, but how can we be sure that, 10 years in biodiversity that we have we seen, by providing down the line, that woodland is protected and maintained? natural carbon sinks and habitats for wildlife to flourish. Who is responsible—the developer or the council? Who As has been mentioned, it also prevents soil erosion and is held to account if the trees are not put in place? There flooding. In the winter of 2015-16, when I went to some are concerns about whether the regulators have the of our northern constituencies that had been badly powers and resources to take such enforcement action. affected by flooding, there was much discussion about A major driver of deforestation in this country, as in the need to plant more trees to prevent soil erosion. I the Amazon, is land conversion for agricultural purposes. went to the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member A key means to address that is agroforestry. I am for York Central (Rachael Maskell) and talked to Yorkshire pleased that, under the Agriculture Act, farmers will be Water. It is about planting trees in the right place, as rewarded for planting more trees and encouraging well. It is not just numbers that count but location and biodiversity on their land. There is a lot of evidence to the type of tree. show that if we plant trees and other plants among Without natural climate solutions we have little hope crops, rather than rigidly sticking to monocultures, we of reaching net zero emissions or preventing further could improve conditions for crops and wildlife by species decline. The issue is not limited to tree planting; creating nutrient-rich, complex ecosystems. A lot of peatlands and sea grass meadows are also vital carbon people think that the countryside that we see as we go sinks. I give credit to the RSPB and the WWF for their through it on a train—fields of grass, with cows grazing recent work to raise the profile of those areas. I hope on them—is the natural environment, but it is not. That the Government will finally act in response to their is not what our countryside should look like. It should campaigns. be far more diverse, and there should be far more trees. However, we are here to talk about tree planting. The I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group on UK’s lack of ambition on this front in the past is agroecology—if anyone wants to join, they are very reflected by the fact that we have 13% forest cover. My welcome—and we have been campaigning for these hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central said things for a long time. Agroforestry should be an absolutely 12%. Whatever the precise figure, that is compared with central part of any national tree-planting strategy. an EU average of 40%, so clearly there is a lot more to All major landholders have a responsibility to try to be done. I welcome recent Government pledges on tree do their bit. I have been asking questions at Church planting. As has been said, at the last election there was Commissioners questions, as the Church of England is a race to outdo each other on the number of trees to be one of the biggest landowners in this country. I was planted. The Government were bottom of the league originally told that because so much of its land is table, pledging to plant only 30 million a year, while the high-grade agricultural land, it is not really suitable for Labour party was pledging to plant 100 million. I think planting trees, but the figures I have show that well we can all agree, if not on the precise number, that the under half of it is good-quality agricultural land, so the ambition needs to be there. Church of England could do much more to plant trees, I briefly want to mention my concern about deforestation and the same goes for the Ministry of Defence. I hope overseas. We are here to talk about England’s tree that the Minister is doing what she can to encourage strategy,but it is shocking to see the continued devastation that. in the Amazon rainforest, which is referred to as the In Bristol—I am a Bristol MP—we are leading the lungs of the Earth, due to its immense capacity to way on tree planting. We have a campaign to double convert carbon to oxygen. It faces an onslaught due Bristol’s tree canopy cover by planting 250,000 trees by to industrial agriculture, mining and forest fires linked 2030. The “one tree per child” campaign is part of that, to climate change. When the Environment Bill was in and in 2015, when we were the European green capital, Committee we tried to add provisions to start measuring we managed to plant one tree for every primary school our global footprint and the links to deforestation in child in the city. our supply chain. The Woodland Trust has been doing great work While I am talking about the Environment Bill, my planting mini-orchards. One of my pet hates is when hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central criticised housing is developed, leaving green triangles everywhere— its lack of focus on tree planting. I have a huge number little bits of green space—or verges by the pavement. of concerns about the Bill, not least that it has yet to They are of no use for anything. People cannot sit on become law. There will be a regulatory gap once we exit them and children cannot play on them. It is nothing the transition period, with the Office for Environmental but grass. The Woodland Trust has been helping to Protection not fully up and running and able to take plant mini-orchards on some of those pieces of land, enforcement action until July 2021, according to what I which makes a huge difference to the look and feel of a have heard. A chair has been appointed but no board place. I hope to hear how the Minister plans to do more has been recruited. We do not know about its budget or to empower local communities to push forward with resources. How are we going to enforce regulations, not those sort of tree-planting and rewilding programmes. just stop people chopping down trees? We have already heard that there is going to be rowback on planning One of the upsides of covid, and of councils having proposals, but there is still a real battle between the need less in the way of resources, is that they have not been to protect our natural environment and the desire to mowing the grass in the same way, and we have seen build more houses. biodiversity flourish. Some people think it looks scruffy, 137WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 138WH but I think most of us would agree that that is a massive 32%; Germany, where it is at 33%; and Spain, where it is improvement. I think we are all on the same page on at 37%. We have to pull our weight and look at the this, but I would like to hear from the Minister how we mitigation that forestry brings. will raise our ambitions and meet the targets that we I welcome the Northern forest initiative, which will have been talking about. make such a difference to my constituency.It will provide new opportunities for work and a social setting, and is 10.12 am important for our landscape. The Labour group in York Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): I am and I supported the White Rose forest from its inception, grateful to be called in this really important debate. I and I am glad that we have convinced our council to thank all hon. Members for their contributions, not take planting seriously. Latterly, it has signed up to this least my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central initiative, and has purchased 150 acres to grow York (Dan Jarvis), who really has championed this cause. community woodlands. Talking of champions, I feel that I must put on the However, I urge the council to go further, particularly record the tansy beetle, which I have seen and cherish in the light of our flooding situation in York, which the most dearly in York. It is known as the jewel of York. Minister knows all about. We need to plant smartly The more we understand about the environmental alongside rivers to absorb the water that comes from emergency, the loss of biodiversity and the change to those catchments. If we plant there, the water will be our climate, the more we understand the centrality of drawn deep into the roots and soil, which really will reparation, and that is what we are here to discuss. If we slow the flow. That is why it is so important that we have do not take action, we will see more flooding, more soil a proper, cross-purpose, joined-up strategy to ensure we degradation, more carbon in our atmosphere, temperatures maximise the benefits of planting. Also, the canopy rising and global catastrophe. For that reason, I welcome stops water hitting the ground as fast, and can bring a the Government’sfocus on trees.I know that the Minister is real reduction in run-off. In fact, some predict a reduction committed to that agenda, but she needs to be more of up to 80% compared with hardcore land. It is therefore ambitious and bolder. Her strategy must be cross-purpose really important to transform surfaces around rivers and cross-departmental, and her plan must change minds. into green spaces, and then plant there. York also suffers from poor air quality. It is in the On ambition, Labour committed to planting 300 million Vale of York, and the topography means that the air is trees and investing £2.5 billion in our first term. We held there—and therefore pollution is, too. We need to would have achieved a total of 1 billion trees by 2030, ensure that our urban spaces are well planted. This and 2 billion by 2040, to support the narrative that clashes with the Government’s plan to build on brownfield woodland growth is essential to a biodiversity shift. sites. I urge the Minister to look at land swaps, so that Labour would have reached 2 million hectares of new brownfield sites can become greenfield sites again, and woodland by 2040, and 3 million hectares by 2050. That perhaps other areas can be used in environmentally is what we mean by ambition. sensitive ways for development. This will bring more of Building a carbon-storage landscape in both urban those green lungs into the centre of our conurbations. and rural settings means rebuilding lost habitats, creating That is much needed, not only for the health benefits, beautiful environments and, importantly, holding water but for the social and mental health benefits. A benefit and restoring soils. The Committee on Climate Change of not having transport in York city centre is that it echoes the need for ambition if net zero is to be reached reduced nitrogen dioxide levels significantly: they dropped by 2050, although that is far too late. It says that 47%, which is the eighth largest fall in the country. woodland cover needs to rise from the current 13% to at However, while planting can help with mitigation, it least 17%, but 19% would be better. Friends of the cannot be seen as the only measure. I therefore call on Earth says that it should be 26%—double the current the Minister to work cross-departmentally, in particular cover. with the Department for Transport, to construct We have 3 billion trees in the country—I have not environments that are robust, and protect our health in counted them, but I have that number on good authority. cities and conurbations in the future. We must raise our game and plant 120 million trees I call on the Minister, when looking at tree planting every single year. However, if the Government had it and transport, to consider the Government’sroad-building their way, they would have planted only 900,000 hectares programme. The environmental assessment is poor or by 2050, and when they first came to power, they non-existent; the impact will be catastrophic for our wanted to sell off our woodlands by privatising our environment. Likewise, there is High Speed 2. I tried to forests—and they are light on ambition now, despite amend the HS2 Bill to protect the environment. Chris being armed with all the facts about the impact of tree Packham beautifully described the 108 ancient woodlands planting. that will be destroyed under the Bill as “cathedrals of How are the Government doing? Let us take last biodiversity” that will be lost. We would not do that to year. Some 13,460 hectares of new woodland was created our cathedrals, so we need to look again at what we are in the UK. Just 17% of that was in England, and just doing to our ancient woodlands. Perhaps the need for 90 hectares was created by public bodies; 96.2% of speed can be reassessed, given the need to secure those planting in England was by the private sector. This is an ancient woodlands. abysmal record by the Government. They are committed Woodlands are also healers of our poor physical and to planting 30 hectares of new woodland in England; at mental health—gymnasiums to mitigate poor health. that rate, we will be lucky to meet the Committee on They cannot be just about rural landscapes; they are Climate Change targets by the turn of the next century, about urban landscapes, too. England’s tree strategy and meet less than half of our ambitions. In England, must look at urban as well as rural areas, because for the Government are hardly scratching the surface.Compare the poorest people in our communities, access to our that with the coverage in France, where it is at countryside is often limited. 139WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 140WH

[Rachael Maskell] you want to plant a tree, you should have done so 20 years ago.” We did that nearly 20 years ago, so we are Finally, I want to talk about changing minds. When I now seeing them grow, but I do say to myself, “I wish I talk to children, they get it; they understand the connectivity had planted trees over there, too, so I could see them between nature and their wellbeing, and they know that grow in my lifetime.” However, my family, after me, will this is the right thing to do. We have an immense see them. challenge in bringing about behavioural change, and to Northern Ireland has the lowest number of trees convincing developers and others of the importance of planted in the whole of the United Kingdom of Great investment in our future bio-economy. We need to Britain and Northern Ireland. We have a target to ensure that hardwired into the “Planning for the Future” achieve. I was encouraged last week to hear that the White Paper, which is under consultation, is a tree plan; Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Minister, it should be at the heart of where we are going, as my alongside the Woodland Trust and Northern Ireland hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central said. We Water, have committed to planting 1 million trees in the need to recognise that hardcore planning is as significant, next 10 years. It is part of a broader plan to plant if not more so, than environmental planning when it 18 million trees in the next 10 years. That is fantastic, comes to trees. but it is only an extra 1% of trees. We must do more to We need to get the balance right. At the moment, it catch up. DAERA is doing that, but it is important that feels as if it is tipped against nature, and we need to pull other Departments do the same if they can. that back. After today’s debate, as we head towards Northern Ireland Water is Northern Ireland’s second- COP26, I hope that the Government will wake up to the largest landowner. It is good to see its commitment. I climate challenge, and challenge themselves, now more encourage others to recognise that planting trees improves than ever. water quality, captures carbon, mitigates flooding and enhances the natural environment. The Minister has 10.22 pm spoken about flooding on many occasions, and hon. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is always a pleasure Members have asked about planting trees to prevent to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. flooding. Those things are really important. Most people agree that we are in a combined climate I thank the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan and biodiversity crisis. We must recognise where we are. Jarvis) for setting the scene well, as he so often does in This is not just about new trees; we must see this as an both the main Chamber and Westminster Hall. I thank opportunity to improve the protection, restoration and everyone for their considerable contributions so far, and management of woods. The two planting schemes that I I am very much looking forward to the speeches of the have been involved with have been educational tree shadow Minister and the Minister, who is appropriately planting in primary and secondary schools in the area. dressed for the occasion; in a forest, we would not even To mark an occasion, we plant a few trees. Those know she was there, such is her colour scheme. It is projects, carried out with the Woodland Trust and lovely to see her, and I look forward to hearing what she others, ensure that trees become part of children’s way has to say. of life, from an early age through to their later years. As a country sports enthusiast, conservation is something The hon. Member for Barnsley Central mentioned that I am passionate about. I am not a tree-hugger, but I tell trees have become a greater part of our lives now that you what: I love trees. Over the past few years, I have we are walking perhaps more than we ever did. I am planted a large number of trees—approximately 3,500—on fortunate in that I can go for a walk on the land behind the land that we own back home. That is a small part to me and on my neighbour’s land whenever I want, but play, but I am pleased to do it. Planting those trees has not everybody can do that. restored the bird, plant and insect life referred to by the Having spoken to experts at the Woodland Trust, it is hon. Members for Barnsley Central, and for Halton clear that while Northern Ireland Water and Northern (Derek Twigg). Ireland are heading in the right direction, we need to be Keeping some trees in the corners of fields creates a more ambitious. The Northern Ireland forestry strategy habitat that encourages birds. The hon. Member for for sustainable growth, published in 2006, set out a plan Totnes (Anthony Mangnall), an RSPB champion, referred to double woodland cover from 6% to 12% by 2050. By to the cirl bunting. In my constituency, the yellowhammer 2020, we moved to 8%. the Agriculture, Environment has returned in numbers to our farm—and the surrounding and Rural Affairs Minister announced the “Forests for farms, because I am not the only person doing this; it is Our Future” programme in March 2020, which seeks to also thanks to the efforts of Vi Calvert and her late plant 18 million trees across 900 hectares by 2030. We husband Michael, who neighbour my land, as well as are told that will amount to an additional 1% of coverage. Lord Dunleath in Ballywalter, and Daphne and Bill Although that seems unambitious against the Climate Montgomery in Grey Abbey. They have made it happen. Change Committee’srecommendations, it sets the direction They were able to, but that is not the point; the point is of travel—we are going from 200 hectares to 900 hectares. that they have done it. They make a direct contribution As I said, that is only 1%, so it is important that we try to tree-planting. to do more. The Government in Northern Ireland are To be honest, one of the reasons why I plant trees—I doing their bit. It is up to the landowners to do something, say this unashamedly—is that I love shooting. I hope too. It is a bold first move to suggest quadrupling that those trees will produce pigeons. When they produce planting rates. pigeons, I will be more than happy, so there is a purpose The Woodland Trust has commended the DAERA in what I am doing. At the end of the day, it also means Minister for his ambitious reworking of the grant that I can hand over those trees and that land to my programme to incentivise landowners to convert to eldest son and my grandchildren. The hon. Member for woodland. Perhaps the Minister here can give us some Barnsley Central referred to the Chinese proverb, “If idea of the grant scheme available to landowners and 141WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 142WH farmers, to incentivise them to do that. The condition Every tree matters. Labour has always been ambitious of planting trees back home is that they cannot be cut when it comes to our plans for tree planting. We want to down for 30 years. I never cut mine down; I hope they see 1 billion new trees planted across Britain by 2030 will live as healthy a life as they can. To meet the and 2 billion by 2040, not just rows and rows of conifers, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change targets, not just trees for commercial use, but a wide variety of ambitions need to be much bolder, and a renewed tree species, deciduous and evergreen, British native species strategy should be developed as a pillar of the plans to and the best varieties from around the world, adding to decarbonise; it is important that we reach that target. our rich tapestry of biodiversity. We must plant the To conclude, the future agricultural payment schemes right trees in the right places and make sure they are replacing the common agricultural policy will be pivotal accessible for us all to enjoy. in delivery of trees in the farmed landscape. The message We all know that we are living in a climate emergency, is that a UK-wide approach will benefit all the United but too often we forget that we are living in an ecological Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We emergency as well. To tackle the climate crisis and cut want to address this issue in the best way. As on all the carbon, we need new forests, salt marshes and peat bogs other issues we speak about—I say this very honestly, too. We need to value biodiversity, deal with species loss Mr Hollobone; you know where I come from—we are and habitat loss and make sure that we are championing better, stronger and always more effective together. not only totemic, iconic species in Britain, such as badgers and so on, but insects such as beetles, little Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): We now come to birds, and all the fantastic variety in our animal kingdom. the Front-Bench speeches. I call Luke Pollard for Her Nature is one of our greenest allies in defending the Majesty’s Opposition. world from climate breakdown and it is important that we use it now. 10.30 am It is safe to saythat the England tree plan the Government Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/ are consulting on is unambitious at best and disappointing Co-op): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for at worst. As my hon. Friend rightly said, there is no Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) on proposing the debate formal way to set targets in England; that might be and for speaking so eloquently about the need not only something the Minister will want to take on board from to plant more trees but to plant the right trees in the this debate. We need to know what success looks like, right place as well. whether our tree planting efforts are going in the right direction, at the pace required, how many trees are Whether you are a tree-hugger or not a tree-hugger, being planted and, importantly, how many trees we are as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) losing along the way. The Government have set out the described himself, a towering oak of insight or a little need to plant more but do not record how many we lose, bush of enthusiasm, to borrow the words of the hon. so we are only really measuring one side of that equation. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall), this has been We need to look at both sides if we are to make a good debate. The message the Minister needs to take this work. from it is that we are all willing her on to greater ambition for tree planting. The contributions to the debate have been excellent. There is much cutting and pasting of environmental My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry soundbites, often three-word statements like build back McCarthy) and I share a love of swift bricks. They may better, green industrial revolution, green new deal. What just be breeze blocks with holes in, but they are a we need is the policy and delivery to be stapled to those present that should be sent to every major housebuilding soundbites.Wehave heard today a cross-party endorsement developer over the Christmas season, because building of the need for delivery and ambition to be combined if back better must also mean building nature into our we are to achieve the level of tree planting that we all new developments. That means not only the correct want to see in this country. We are in a climate and level of planting, but building birdlife and the life of ecological emergency. Members from all parties have nature into that opportunity. highlighted not only the benefits that come from tree My hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Rachael planting in carbon sequestration and biodiversity gain, Maskell) set out the ambition very clearly when she but the benefits to mental health and wellbeing that talked about the need for an English ambition in this were so clearly articulated by my hon. Friend in his respect. There have been no contributors from Scotland opening remarks. today, but if we look at the level of tree planting in The benefits of tree planting are immense. Scientists Scotland, we see that the heavy burden Scotland is predict that a worldwide tree planting programme could carrying for the United Kingdom is obscuring the lack remove two thirds of all emissions from human activities of delivery in England. The focus on English ambition that remain in the atmosphere today. The University of that my hon. Friend spoke about is very important, as is Exeter—a university proudly in my neck of the woods the role of tree planting in providing nature-based in the south-west—has found that, overall, people living solutions for flood alleviation. That is especially important in green urban areas were displaying fewer signs of in the areas that have been hardest hit by floods, including depression or anxiety.Trees really are a cure-all medicine. York in recent years. They are good for our mental health, our physical The balance being tipped against nature is a very health and the health of our planet. Coronavirus has good way of describing our planning system. Will the shown what really matters to people and what people Minister speak to her colleagues in the Treasury about value. Family, friends, community, health and nature where the Dasgupta review has got to? The Government have been what I find people in Plymouth have really started a review of the economic value of biodiversity, valued and are focusing more on for next year. The which sounds like a very Conservative thing to do—putting connection with nature is really important. a value in pounds, shillings and pence on everything—but 143WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 144WH

[Luke Pollard] Planting the right trees in the right place is important, especially when we look at the root growth pattern of there is a real logic to it. Not valuing biodiversity in the different species. There are far too many communities economic decisions we make effectively means that in our country that are blighted by unlevel pavements nature is worthless in those decisions. We have seen an because of poor decisions about which species of tree to interim report from the Treasury on the Dasgupta plant in which area, and too many people are dying review, which I think in most cases pointed in the right unnecessarily in accidents because trees have been planted direction, but we do not have a timetable for when the near relatively high-speed roads. Trees are not frangible final report will be published. A timetable would be and reflect the impact of any collision straight away, so useful. there is much to be done in that regard, too. The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Chris I should also celebrate the arrival of Plymouth’s first Clarkson) spoke passionately, echoing the remarks by beaver in hundreds of years. We will need to plant some my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central, more trees to cope with our little friend the beaver and about the importance of the Northern forest. Setting up its efforts to dam up the river around Forder valley, tree planting in a way that is accessible to people is a which is an important part of our flood prevention really important part of what we have to achieve. Rows strategy. This is a source of much concern. The boy and rows of conifers, as I described them, are really beaver that we have will be joined by a girl beaver in the important for our commercial forestry business, and we new year, so they can have lots of little beavers. need that business to improve because Britain is a huge Ancient woodland is a really important part of the importer of wood when we should be growing and debate, because once lost it can never be replaced. Only using more wood of our own; but we also need to 3% of our land is ancient woodland. I want the ensure that tree planting is accessible because woodland England tree strategy to commit to preventing any can make a really big difference to both our mental further loss and to restoration of all plantation on health and physical health. Awareness of that needs to ancient woodland sites along the way. The amendment be baked in to our environment policy. attempted by Labour to the High Speed 2 legislation to include statutory reporting on the impact on ancient My hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek woodland in the construction process was an important Twigg) described the situation very well when he argued contribution. I am pleased that the Government the case for councils to be at the forefront of rewooding. accepted that, but I have to say to Ministers that there is Borrowing the very good description of my hon. Friend much more work to be done in that respect, and much the Member for Barnsley Central, the process should be good will was lost because of the decisions taken by town hall-led and not Whitehall-driven. The idea that Ministers. every town should have a new wood is also important. I support the National Trust’s campaign to ensure that My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East spoke everyone lives within 10 minutes’ walk of a green space, about seagrass. I am not an official champion for seagrass, but as well as what constitutes a green space, we should but as someone who has taken it to heart, I will say that consider what the nature-rich environment is that we we need to recognise that seagrass and kelp forests have want to create in our urban areas, and in our semi-rural an important part to play in carbon sequestration; they areas as well—living near a field does not mean living are 30 times more effective than the equivalent tree near accessible nature. We must remember that ensuring planting on land. Our ambition on land must be matched there is more accessible nature for all communities is by our ambition in the marine environment. That is important. really important. Ministers’ ambitions for increased tree planting and The hon. Member for Totnes is always good value in the England tree strategy must be truly cross-departmental. these debates and I enjoyed his remarks this morning. Highways England, Network Rail and other public The cirl bunting is a really important bird, as are many bodies must have the same ambition baked into their of the birds along the south coast of Devon, extending particular values. What we have heard today should from Plymouth into Cornwall. The challenge around leave the Minister in no doubt that we want her to common land tree planting is an interesting one, but it succeed in the level of tree planting that she has committed has not been raised in the debate so far. I encourage the to, and to go much, much further. hon. Gentleman to continue to ask questions about how that challenge can be addressed. There is a good case for preserving the values of common land and its 10.41 am accessibility, so there is a good campaign in the making. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, In Plymouth, we fought hard against the initial plans Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow): It is an absolute from David Cameron to sell off our forests. I led the pleasure to be having this debate with you in the Chair, campaign to save Cann Wood from being sold, and it is Mr Hollobone. What a veritable forest of parliamentary now reaping the benefits of people really valuing it tree-huggers and lovers we have in the room! We have so precisely because it was almost lost. That is something much in common when we talk about trees. I like to that we should consider. Plymouth already has one of argue with the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for the largest canopy covers of any city of its size, and with Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard), but the Woodland Trust our Labour council has put together that is quite difficult on this subject, although I will try an exciting plan for trees, which is a model of best on a couple of points. practice. We want to plant a bare minimum of nearly Of course, I have to thank the hon. Member for 3,000 trees across 67 locations in addition to the 30,000 street Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) for securing this debate trees and 100 hectares of woodland that Plymouth about tree planting and the all-encompassing things already has. that trees bring to us and to our lives. Planting more 145WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 146WH trees in England and protecting our existing woodlands do with the environment, is hosting a roundtable right are a key part of the Government’s plan to achieve net now to discuss the strategy’s development. A great deal zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. of work continues on that. I said that I was not going to get feisty, but I will get We have an opportunity, as the hon. Member for this off my chest. We do not just talk about tree planting Barnsley Central rightly said, to harness this moment numbers. We have the national forest inventory, which and have an exciting new way of thinking about trees. looks at all tree planting and forestation, so it is not Over the summer, we consulted on the England tree right to say that we talk only about the numbers of strategy. We received more than 20,000 responses, which trees. Just as important to us is protecting the standing reflects the interest in this area and the importance trees. This is not just about individual tree planting placed on trees. I thank every single body and organisation numbers. that contributed to that consultation. We have a vision I absolutely agree with the shadow Minister on the that will set out what we want England’s treescape to importance of planting the right tree in the right place look like for future generations and how we deliver the and how we can do much more to sequester carbon and goal set out in our 25-year environment plan. deliver all the multiple benefits that trees provide us As many hon. Members have said, trees and woodlands with. That is why the Government’s ambitious “Ten can deliver multiple benefits, not least for nature and Point Plan for a Green Industrial Revolution” clearly biodiversity. We have heard so much about biodiversity, sets out our commitment to plant 30,000 hectares of not least from our cirl bunting champion, my hon. trees every year in the UK by 2025, protecting and Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall). restoring our natural environment, but also creating Cirl buntings actually live in the more arable lands that jobs. A number of hon. Members, especially Opposition we get around the coast, but that is not say that we Members, suggested that we are not being ambitious. I cannot talk about them in a tree debate, because it is all say that this plan absolutely demonstrates our ambition. about biodiversity.Weneed well-designed new woodlands, This is not just a game of numbers and writing random supported by long-term management, to help nature’s numbers on the board; we are setting out the process recovery. and methods by which we will actually be able to plant the trees. That is the key thing, because it is not Through our new environmental land management straightforward. We have to harness the good will of all scheme, landowners and managers will be able to integrate the landowners in this country and all the other people trees into the landscape, which will contribute to the involved. As the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry nature recovery networks for which there are many McCarthy) said, there are various big land owners, measures of support in the Environment Bill, and be including the Church and the Ministry of Defence. able to support the Government’s commitment—another Those are all important. big Government commitment—to 30% of our land being protected by 2030. I think that we do have the ambition. Weare committed to what I would say is a step change in how we work, On top of our future schemes, I encourage any farmer and we are working closely with devolved Administrations, or landowner considering tree planting to sign up to the which is really important as well. Yes, Scotland is planting countryside stewardship grants now, if they have not a great many trees, but it has different terrain, so people done so already, or to extend their schemes, because are not always comparing like with like. We have to those will enable them to transition to the new work together on this. environmental land management scheme if they choose We are exploring whether a statutory target for trees to in future. We already have a range of grants to in England would be appropriate under the target-setting encourage woodland planting, but we will be opening process that we have set out in the Environment Bill, new grants for woodland creation in spring, with money which has just been through Committee. The hon. from the nature for climate fund, which is designed to Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport will do just that. know, if he has listened to the Committee’s proceedings, Trees and woodlands can deliver for water and soil. what that process is and what it will enable. We can set a We know, for example, that trees can make an important target on anything we think is the right thing to do for contribution to natural flood management, as we have the environment. Certainly, we can explore whether we heard from several hon. Members, particularly the hon. need targets for trees, which is tremendously exciting, Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell). We have because we have not had that opportunity before—that supported that through £5.7 million of funding in the is why the Environment Bill is so great. I applaud Northern forest. Linked to that, £700,000 has been Northern Ireland and the hon. Member for Strangford allocated to Leeds City Council for its flood alleviation (Jim Shannon) on the new target that has been announced scheme to help to prevent future flooding incidents in for how many trees will be planted in Northern Ireland, Leeds through the creation of woodlands higher up the which is to be welcomed. steep-sided valleys known as cloughs. That is exactly We welcome the advice of the Committee on Climate what many hon. Members have been suggesting. Work Change and we will carefully consider its recommendations is under way, and hopefully we will see a great deal more as we set out our sixth carbon budget. Our nature for of it. climate fund will invest £640 million in driving up We are also exploring opportunities to support tree nature-based solutions, including supporting our ambitious planting and woodland creation along rivers, to create tree planting programme. It will be underpinned by the riparian woodlands. We hope that the beavers will not imminent and much talked about England tree strategy, come and gnaw them all down—beavers are very useful which will be published in spring, as has been referenced. in one way, but not when it comes to that. It is a Today’s debate is timely because Lord Goldsmith, the carefully controlled management tool that we have to Minister responsible for trees, with whom I work closely work into all our processes of thinking. Woody buffer because trees obviously have an impact on everything to strips along waterways can be helpful in many ways. 147WH National Tree Strategy16 DECEMBER 2020 National Tree Strategy 148WH

[Rebecca Pow] trees are so important and will play a part, as will community,forest and parkland trees, which have multiple Lord Goldsmith and I have been engaging with a benefits. We have spent £10 million on the urban tree number of experts and specialists who have illustrated challenge fund, which has planted just over 18,000 trees the variety of that kind of planting, which can help our across towns and cities to date. We will be continuing aquatic environment, mitigate flooding, and help us with that funding. meet our net-zero targets. The Environment Agency has On top of that, we are supporting urban tree planting already been awarded £1.4 million from the nature for through the green recovery challenge fund. My hon. climate fund to support projects that will plant more Friend the Member for Totnes mentioned the planting than 850,000 trees and protect and enhance 162 km of of 145,000 trees over 88 sites—I think a lot of that came river. from funding—and I congratulate him on that. That is We know that tree planting is not suitable for all the model that others should follow, so I hope they keep locations, so we will work to ensure that the vision up the great work. showcases how we can deliver tree planting that is On the green recovery challenge fund, Earthwatch sensitive to protected landscapes and complements our has recently received funding to plant tiny forests the heritage. We obviously need to ensure they work in size of tennis courts. I am a tennis player and I still want harmony with habitats such as our peat lands and the some tennis courts, but that is a great idea. Earthwatch uplands, and we will link up with the peat strategy to has just got an allocation from the new fund that the ensure that we have the trees in the right place. Government launched, and that will also help with jobs A number of Members mentioned management issues in that world. The forests will connect our communities with trees. Managing pests, deer and grey squirrels is to trees. obviously important if we want to maintain trees and I want to touch on the net gain point that was raised. biodiversity, as is managing outbreaks of disease, such Developers will be responsible for maintaining the new as the devastating ash dieback, which has been mentioned. woodlands that they create through the net gain process. I went up to the Quantocks near me the other day, and I Under the Environment Bill, every developer will have nearly cried; it was so devastating. I took photographs—I to put back 10% more nature than was there when it am always sending them to my team—of how devastating started and will have to look after it for 30 years. that disease is and what an impact it is going to have. The pandemic has highlighted more than ever the The Government have already set up a nursery that is importance of nature to our health and wellbeing; growing saplings that might be resistant. A lot of work many people in this Chamber have touched on that is going on at pace to make sure we can address this, today. That, too, is recognised in our vision for trees, because it is so important. particularly through the community woodlands and the The hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) mentioned urban and peri-urban planting. As I have set out, we are the horticultural nursery industry, and I think he will supporting the existing Northern forest partnership of welcome the fact that, back in the summer, we announced the community forest and the Woodland Trust. It is a a £2 million partnership of investment to work up brilliant partnership. The investment is funding the domestic nursery capacity to provide the trees that we planting of at least 1.8 million new trees across the will need. That is obviously really important. Northern forest. I applaud the hon. Member for Barnsley This is not just about woodlands, though; it is also Central for being there at the start and then at the about hedgerows and shelter belts. We have already millionth tree. The Government are utterly committed taken some actions: we have allocated £2.5 million from to the project. the shared outcomes fund to encourage tree planting Hot on the heels of the Northern forest comes the outside woodlands, and we have announced that we are new Northumberland forestry partnership, which will introducing guidance for local authorities to do their facilitate tree planting in Northumberland. I hope that own tree and woodland strategies. I was really interested will help to address the need for more trees in the north. to hear about Barnsley Council’s tree strategy. Lots of We are doing that at pace. The new nature for climate local authorities are working in that way, and it is great fund announced £12 million for community forests. The to be proactive. They know their areas and where they new trees for climate programme will see more than would like to have the trees. 500 hectares of trees planted in 10 community forests Trees on farms are also really important. I grew up on across the country within the next so many months, so a farm and have planted many trees, as has my dad; he that is moving at pace. has owl boxes and bird boxes all over the place. Those Who will plant these new trees? We will need to trees are now little woods, so that shows that if we get inspire a generation of foresters. [Interruption.] The on with it, it is worth it. I hope the hon. Member for Chair is indicating that I need to wind up, so I will do so Bristol East will welcome the fact that we have just by answering a couple of questions. I thank the released guidance on how agroforestry, which integrates hon. Member for Barnsley Central for his letter to the trees into the farm landscape, as she eloquently outlined, Secretary of State; he will receive a reply. On the nine can be eligible for the basic payment scheme. I agree shovel-ready projects, I urge him to look at the £200 million that could make a really big contribution to our landscapes. innovation fund that opens in January, so will he please Many hon. Members mentioned urban trees, not apply? Obviously, we will work with all those people to least my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and bring all that forward. Middleton (Chris Clarkson)—I congratulate him on his Ancient woodlands are hugely important to us, so we success with his ten-minute rule Bill. The Government have given them extra protection. I had a great visit the listened, so what a great start. Sit down now—excellent other day in Fingle Woods, Dartmoor, where we have work! I also have to congratulate him on his Latin provided another fund to help manage that woodland pronunciation. He made so many good points. Urban and bring forward new skills to train foresters and 149WH National Tree Strategy 16 DECEMBER 2020 150WH sawmill owners, and to provide portable sawmills. There Walthamstow Toy Library Eviction: are all kinds of new opportunities in timber. Yes, we NHS Role need to grow more at home, and yes, we need to use more at home. I shall wind up, Mr Hollobone, because I know you 11.1 am want me to. I thank the hon. Member for Barnsley Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to Central for securing this debate. There is a huge amount move, of synergy in the room. We are totally committed to our tree strategy. I am going home this weekend to plant an That this House has considered the NHS’s role in the eviction of the Walthamstow Toy Library. amelanchier—a beautiful garden tree that Lord Goldsmith gave me for my birthday. I am going to start this It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, weekend, and I urge every Member to do the same, Mr Hollobone. I want to start by saying that I am sorry including the Chair. I look forward to working with the that we must have this debate, because I know there are hon. Member for Barnsley Central as a champion of some incredibly serious issues facing our health service. COP26. I am sure there is a lot more that we will be able All our communities are dealing with the consequences to discuss. of the pandemic. I wish I were asking the Minister about that, because that should be his priority. However, 10.58 am under the cover of the pandemic, something is taking place in my community. Dan Jarvis: This has been a really useful and constructive debate. I am grateful to all Members for their contributions. I am hoping this morning for a bit of a Christmas It has been great to hear about local environmental miracle and some positive news for my local community projects, and of course I am hugely encouraged by the about something that hundreds of residents have expressed support that exists for the Northern forest. The shadow concern about, and I know many more will. It is the fate Minister said that we are willing the Minister on, and of our local toy library. The Walthamstow toy library we are. There is real agreement that planting trees is a has been there for more than 40 years, serving thousands key part of our efforts to address climate change in the of children and their families locally.It is vital community biodiversity collapse. The England tree strategy represents resource. It does not just loan toys, but helps with an important opportunity to rethink our approach to children’s social development and provides emotional planting trees and to tree cover. support to parents in the ninth poorest community for child poverty in the country. On the point about targets, what gets measured gets done, so I encourage the Minister to be bold. Given the Its mission is to provide a safe and stimulating place climate emergency that we all know we are living through, for young children and their parents and carers to play, we need to get on with this. Ahead of the COP26 learn and interact. What does that mean in practice? It conference next year,there is a really important opportunity means a wealth of activities: help to support new mums to champion nature-based solutions and to show real to breastfeed, mental health support for those with global leadership, so I hope the Government will meet post-natal depression, support for children with special the moment with the urgency it deserves. educational needs, advice on healthy eating and living activities, and outreach, as well as the promotion of Question put and agreed to. wider social objectives such as recycling and, of course, Resolved, loaning toys and encouraging child development. That this House has considered the National Tree Strategy. Do not take it from me, Minister—take it from the users of the service. Stacy, one of the many mums from Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. In order to Walthamstow on a low income, wrote to me: allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those “As a first time mum, I found the social aspect of motherhood very daunting. The thought of meeting other mothers whilst participating in the next, I am suspending the sitting for supporting my child to play and interact with other children two minutes. I urge hon. Members to leave by the exit seemed almost impossible! This was until I came across the Toy door on the left as quickly as possible. Library. You would assume such facilities and service wouldn’t be available to those who couldn’t financially afford it but this isn’t 11 am the case. The Toy Library doesn’t have such barriers in place, so it means if you are a parent who needs that financial support Sitting suspended. through borrowing of toys or affordable entry/membership it is available. I felt very supported and encouraged to become part of the Toy Library without being judged for my circumstances.” The Minister might say to me, “That sounds all very nice, but what about health care?” That is ultimately his priority. I want to highlight that we have a very high level of challenge in my local community when it comes to child and maternal health. The World Health Organisation has a vaccination target of 95%. I am sorry to say that my borough does not meet that for any vaccine: under 30% of two to three-year-olds have had the flu jab in my borough this year. Our measles, mumps, rubella rates are well below the England average, with only 83% of children aged 24 months in Waltham Forest vaccinated. Our rates of childhood obesity are also above the national average. 151WH Walthamstow Toy Library Eviction: 16 DECEMBER 2020 Walthamstow Toy Library Eviction: 152WH NHS Role NHS Role [Stella Creasy] generate as much income as possible to pay back the debt and provide a return to its shareholders, known as The library supports not just children but their mums. RWF Health and Community Developers Ltd. During lockdown, my office has been inundated by For eight years, and through multiple ownership mothers with post-natal depression who have had no structures of the building, including the eventual abolition support since health visitors were taken away. It has of the PCT and then working with the NHS Waltham been the toy library that has offered vital help for those Forest Clinical Commissioning Group, the Walthamstow mums, too. Indeed, during the pandemic they stepped toy library has frankly been treated as a nuisance by the up to support many low income families in Walthamstow, CCG and CHP. Those organisations have also failed to offering one-to-one contact with 150 of them, providing provide adequate healthcare services to my community. activity ideas and helping to deal with the isolation that Indeed, the CCG is one of the services most complained so many families have felt in the past months. They about to my office. offeredparentsone-to-onesupportwithatrainedcounsellor, For years, the volunteers who work at the Walthamstow renewed play sessions, when they could, and offered toy library have been trying to sort out their lease, to craft packs to nearly 1,000 local children. These are work with the CCG and to be commissioned to provide critical services that have never been more needed, services to help address issues such as the poor vaccination which have a health outcome. They deal with mental rate or childhood obesity. Frankly, the CCG has not health and mean we have a connection with some of the just refused but has been point-blank rude about those hardest-to-reach children in our community. offers, including to me and the volunteers. The volunteers The Walthamstow toy library has just eight members have tried, in vain, because they know how much it of staff and an annual turnover of £85,000. That means means to the community and because they have suddenly that the work they do and the impact they have is all the started getting bills for hundreds of thousands of pounds more remarkable. They do not receive any public subsidy. for the building. Occasionally, they have a grant from the council, but Suddenly, Waltham Forest CCG wished to claim that they fund all their activities through relentless fundraising the cost of having a toy library there is around £60,000 a and a network of alumni, who recognise the value of year. For property aficionados, let me be clear what we their work to local children and the community. That is are talking about: it is 120 square metres, with a kitchen, why I am asking for a Christmas miracle from Ministers two toilets and a garden. I know everybody thinks that today. We are in danger of losing this vital resource in Walthamstow village is fancy and expensive, but I have Walthamstow, which, importantly, represents value for talked to local estate agents and even if it were the most money. swanky building, the most they think such a building Walthamstow toy library has been in the same building should cost is £30,000 a year, with service charges. I since 1986. It is a purpose-built building, on the site of thank community estate agents, such as Strettons, for the original toy library that was knocked down to make helping us and for being so shocked for our community. way for the Comely Bank campus, which is the space it It is not just about the rent they are trying to charge. is now in. The Comely Bank campus was a local When we look at the amounts of money that the CCG improvement finance trust company initiative for the and CHP seem to want, the toy library’s charges seem NHS, which is where the Minister starts to begin to take to have increased at a much higher rate than for the responsibility for this. The Minister should be worried property as a whole: from £77,000 in 2019 to £102,000 in not just about my local toy library, but about what this 2020-21—an annual increase of 32%—yet the overall episode reveals for the wider NHS property account, lease for Comely Bank seems to have increased by only for which he has responsibility. 2.8%. One might query why the toy library, a charitable LIFT was supposed to be the not-for-profit version organisation, is suddenly being asked to pay an excessive of the private finance initiative—that old chestnut—helping amount of rent and charges, compared with anyone in to bring much-needed properties to the NHS, but it is the rest of the building. clear that the company running this building is motivated Leaving that aside, the CCG itself—it has not negotiated by money, not the needs of my local community. When with the toy library but summarily issued documents—has it was first built and run by the primary care trust, it agreed to pay for the presence of the toy library,honouring was agreed that the toy library would have a peppercorn the original agreement for a peppercorn rent so that the rent, so the toy library would be there, work with toy library could be in Walthamstow. However, it should healthcare providers and provide all those services to trouble the Minister, given the concern that I know he the local community. has for value for money, that any one side of the NHS LIFTCos also meant that the NHS would have some should be charging another double the cost of a building, control over GP services and primary care facilities in before service charges. I think that the honest truth is those buildings. Although the PCTs only had a small that that is why the CCG has refused to work with me stake, they had some ability to determine how local and residents to try to save the toy library, and why, facilities were built and used. Since PCTs were indeed, it is colluding in evicting it. abolished and their stake referred to a company called It should also trouble the Minister that Andrew Community Health Partnerships, all that local control Meakin, the regional property director for CHP, wrote has gone. to me threatening to send bailiffs to the toy library to LIFTCo behaviour is now dominated by their private recover nearly £200,000-worth of debt that he claimed financers, often hidden from view, who are seeking it owed in building and service charges. He argued that to maximise their returns by charging extortionately CHP is a publicly-owned company and could not see high rents and service charges. As this case shows, the any option except to progress debt collection through overriding drive of Community Health Partnerships is the usual channels, to recoup public funds. That was in not what our community needs or wants, but how it can October. Those were costs that the CCG had already 153WH Walthamstow Toy Library Eviction: 16 DECEMBER 2020 Walthamstow Toy Library Eviction: 154WH NHS Role NHS Role claimed it would pay and, indeed, that CHP knew about that will, I have no doubt, come to the Minister at some and subsequently, mysteriously, issued credit notes for. point for funding for property. Essentially, one side of However, one can imagine what it must feel like for the NHS is asking the other for over-inflated rents—robbing volunteers to receive a bill for £200,000 from an organisation Peter to pay Paul. That would irk me less if the CCG claiming to represent the NHS. had not presided over a building that has been under- I draw to the Minister’s attention the detail of the occupied for years. The under-occupation rate has been coronavirus legislation that places a moratorium on 20% since 2016, and in the last year it has been 30%—all commercial landlords evicting people. The current time in a building whose lease finishes in less than 10 years. of great uncertainty in funding and operations for the In the absence of being able to hold CHP accountable, toy library means that it is hard for it to raise funds. I have come to the Minister to ask for his help and to Mr Meakin is acting as the Christmas Grinch in trying ask whether he believes that the decisions that are being to chase revenue sources for which he has already been taken square with his statutory duties under the Health paid twice, to justify evicting the toy library. It gets and Social Care Act 2012 to reduce inequalities and worse, however. He demanded that the toy library should promote a comprehensive health service.It is not acceptable act as a commercial operator and charge fees for services to say that these are just decisions for the local LIFTCo that it does not provide, suggesting that its offering is or CHP, when CHP is owned by the Secretary of State less commercial than those of its rivals in my constituency, and it is refusing to answer questions. There is a vacuum as though the building was a commercial one. The in which the interests of private finance have come whole point about the service is that it is not commercial. before the public in Walthamstow. It is open to everyone. That is the benefit. This is not just a constituency problem, because CHP It is interesting to me that CHP demands commercial manages 5% of the NHS property estate. If it is behaving behaviour and transparency from the toy library while in such ways in other parts of the country, other it is unwilling to be honest about its own activities. communities are also being overcharged for their properties. Despite being a public sector body, it is wholly In other parts of the NHS, social prescribing has been unaccountable about revealing how much it makes through the way forward, working with community organisations, charging such extortionate rents. For any other PFI such as at the Michael Burke Wellbeing Centre in deal I could go to the Treasury database and see the Suffolk or Houghton Primary Care Centre in Houghton interest on the loan that is driving the situation, but it le Spring. has refused to reveal that information, even with a Weknow that PFI was the wrong move—Governments freedom of information request, claiming that to do so of all sides have recognised that—and we all want to would prejudice the commercial interests of CHP and sort it out, but LIFTCos have not had the same level of its private developers, RWF Health and Community scrutiny. Can the Minister tell me who will own the Developers Ltd. It then argues—this is surely meant to building in less than 10 years’ time? Can he tell me how be ironic—that revealing how much money it is making much it is costing us as taxpayers? Can he tell me would impact on its abilities in relation to services in whether he believes that in evicting the Walthamstow areas of high social and health need, which I presume toy library, CHP is adhering to the original lease, as it is means areas such as my constituency. required to do, which talked about non-NHS use and I am not sure what the commercial interests are with working with local communities? Above all, can he respect to what is supposedly an NHS building, but I offer me some advice and help on how I can support my guess that some of them are overseas. In the FOI local community, which is struggling in the pandemic, response it was claimed that there have been no subsequent and those children who rely on the toy library, to make sales of shares in the project since it was first commissioned. sure that we have a toy library for many years to come However, a look at the company accounts shows that in Walthamstow? the subsidiary and the ultimate parent company, HICL, I know the Minister has been told one thing by the have been part of nine different holding companies for CCG and CHP, but I would be happy to inform him of the building. Indeed, Barclays sold its share in this my experience of dealing with these organisations and LIFTCo to HICL in 2013. It is not clear how much the truth of the attempts at negotiation. With Christmas Barclays sold the share for, but, as we have all seen with just a few days away, will he play Santa to the children PFI, HICL was registered offshore in Guernsey at the of Walthamstow and commit today to supporting the time, and remained so until 2018. Walthamstow toy library and helping us to save it? It is also clear that around £3.2 million in management Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): The debate can fees has been extracted from the subsidiary of the last until 11.30. I call the Minister. LIFTCo between 2007 and 2020. It looks as though that is in addition to the returns to shareholders and the interest on debt repayments. That sum would be more 11.16 am than enough to cover the alleged cost of having the The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): It is always a Waltham Forest toy library in there for decades to come. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I ask the Minister, as a starting point—given that he I will endeavour not to qualify for the Grinch’s green is a stakeholder, and that ultimately CHP is owned by suit in what I am about to say to the hon. Lady. I the Secretary of State—whether he can tell me what the congratulate her on securing this debate. It is always a internal rate of return is. I am sure that he would agree pleasure to appear opposite her and she has always that it is in the public interest to know that. What does been a strong and vocal champion for her constituents he think the commercial interests are? It is my understanding in this House. that the CCG is colluding with CHP to evict the The hon. Lady has raised a number of points, and I Walthamstow toy library so that it can put another am grateful to her for highlighting in advance the tenant in the building. However, that is the same CCG outline and contours of the issue, which means that 155WH Walthamstow Toy Library Eviction: 16 DECEMBER 2020 Walthamstow Toy Library Eviction: 156WH NHS Role NHS Role [Edward Argar] not evicting the toy library. More importantly, in the chronology that the Minister talks about, if the toy I have had an opportunity to look into some of it. I will library had been told to find an alternative building, come back to this point later, but I make the offer that I why was it working on commissioning services together am very happy, as soon as we return after the Christmas with the CCG? I fear that the Minister has been sadly recess, to meet her to go into more detail about the issues misled by Selina Douglas and the Waltham Forest CCG she has raised and some of the history and chronology on this matter. of what has happened here, if that is helpful to her. Edward Argar: I was about to make one final point, I know the hon. Lady has been an active supporter of which is that I understand that a further three-month and campaigner for the Walthamstow toy library, which extension was agreed until 30 June 2021. However, I is an important local charity,and she started the campaign highlight what the hon. Lady said, not only just now to save it from possibly having to move from the current but previously, which clearly suggests that a different premises, as she has talked about today.As she highlighted, complexion has been put on this issue. That is why my the building is owned by one of the NHS local improvement meeting her would be useful. finance trust companies, CHP, and that is one of the companies that is managed by the Department for I will put on the record one or two points. It is Health and Social Care, or owned by the Secretary of important to note that the subsidy paid by the CCG is State for Health and Social Care. It is now the head an arrangement that is not offered to any other charitable tenant for the property, having taken over from the PCT or voluntary group within the borough. I recognise, as in 2013, when PCTs were abolished. CHP sublet to GPs the hon. Lady set out, the value that this charity brings. and other providers of NHS services that received the In my distant past when I was a Westminster city majority of their income from the local CCG. councillor, before I was a Leicestershire MP, I recognised the value that toy libraries and similar charities brought I note at the outset that the hon. Lady may wish to to the local community in London. I put that on the challenge some of these points when we meet, as she record because we must always remain conscious of has done today. As has been related to me, in 2005, the fairness. There are specific circumstances, but I just toy library was incentivised to relocate to the new wanted to highlight that point. building following the destruction, for want of a better way of putting it, of its old building, by being offered a The hon. Lady talked about social prescribing, and lease at a peppercorn rent, with a small contribution she is absolutely right. That goes to my experience in towards running costs for 10 years, which started on seeing the huge value that charity facilities such as this 27 September 2005. It occupies about 9% of the building. can bring not only to those who are in need, but to others within the community more broadly who access That original lease was between the PCT and the toy the toy library and come together in that context. Such library, meaning the PCT bore the cost. In 2013, when facilities are hugely important in the communities where the lease was transferred to CHP and the local CCG, they exist. They bring people together and provide they agreed to honour that previous subsidy. My mutual support, often to families and individuals who understanding is that during 2015 there were extensive may not have a medical need, or who may not want negotiations between CHP, the toy library, the CCG their needs to be dealt with through medical means, but and Waltham Forest children’s services on the expiry of who find the support they need—help through a difficult the lease. It was recognised then by the CCG that the time, or just more broadly—through such facilities. I toy library would at the very least need time to review recognise their value. the options available to it and to explore securing alternative During the time that the toy library has been in this accommodation, other funding sources to increase its building, the CHP and the CCG suggest that a substantial income or, for example, a contract for commissioned debt for service charges and utility bills has accrued, services from the council in order to pay its rent. As such, which they assert that the toy library clearly agreed to the CCG agreed to subsidise the occupancy for a further pay as part of the original lease, separate from the rent. three years, beginning on 1 April 2015, at a cost of I see from the hon. Lady’s expression that that will £50,000 per annum, with contributions also coming from feature in our discussion. I appreciate that there are the LIFT company and CHP for the balance of that. different perspectives on the form that engagement has By 2018, my understanding is that no progress had taken. CHP and the CCG have engaged with the toy been made in sourcing alternative accommodation, and library on a number of occasions to explore solutions that the CCG agreed to a further three years of subsidising to the issues that have arisen. Those solutions have the rent on similar terms, continuing to contribute included moving to a more sustainable business model, £50,000 per annum to costs, with a continued contribution becoming a social enterprise or having the council from the LIFT company. The position of the CCG and commission services. They state that the toy library has the LIFT company is that this was always intended to been supported in those discussions to find alternative be an interim measure for three years. They state that premises, with options explored including whether it they sent a clear message to the toy library that, by could be relocated or co-located with other services for March 2021, it was expected to pay the full cost of children and families. occupancy if it was to remain a tenant. The hon. Lady The toy library of course has the first option on this has put on the record a different interpretation of that, space, certainly until the end of that period of extension, which I am happy to explore with her. If she wants to but I understand that, in the meantime, a feasibility intervene, I will happily allow it. study has been commissioned by the CCG on prioritising use of the building for health purposes. There are no Stella Creasy: It may be useful to clarify that at no signed agreements yet, but NHS parties state that they point has the CCG told the toy library that it is to leave are reserving the right to reconfigure the building for the building; indeed, the CCG keeps telling me that it is what they deem to be its primary purpose: in their 157WH Walthamstow Toy Library Eviction: 16 DECEMBER 2020 Walthamstow Toy Library Eviction: 158WH NHS Role NHS Role words, to get best value for the local health economy. Stella Creasy rose— However, to the hon. Lady’s point, we must always be conscious of the need to look at value not just in Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. I am afraid financial terms or in purely primary care terms, but in that the hon. Lady is not allowed a right of reply. terms of broader health benefits and broader benefits Generously, I will allow her to intervene on the Minister, to the community. Value, for want of a better way of if he agrees that he has not finished his speech, but the putting it, takes many forms, not always with pound intervention has to be brief. signs involved: there are broader,more intangible measures of value. Again, I am very happy to explore that aspect Edward Argar: Apologies; when I said “Thank you, of the issue with her when we meet. Mr Hollobone”, I thought that I had caught your eye and you were about to stand, so I sat down. If I may, I The view and perspective of CHP, the local CCG and will finish my conclusion, and should the hon. Lady the LIFT is that they have sought to engage constructively wish to intervene on me, I am happy to take that with the toy library since they first assumed that intervention. relationship—in 2013, if my memory of what I just said serves me—but they do need to look to the future. The Stella Creasy: I thank the Minister for letting me suggestion of finding an alternative space at a similar intervene, and for the good Christmas cheer that he is peppercorn rent, for example, may be a way forward. bringing. Can I confirm that a side letter was sent by the However, I again note what the hon. Lady said: this is a CCG to the Walthamstow toy library in, I think, 2018, purpose-built space for the toy library, and a shared committing to paying all the costs of it being in the space with others coming in and coming out would not building? As such, the suggestion that charges were necessarily work with the model for the services that are outstanding is another misleading statement. When he provided to the people who use it. I hope that as we looks into the issue, could he also clarify who will own look to the future, both the toy library and—equally, the building after 2030, when the original lease runs and hugely importantly—the CCG and CHP will try to out? We are fewer than 10 years away, and surely any engage, genuinely and openly, to explore options around redevelopment of the building has to take place in that either finance or genuinely viable alternative premises. I context. also hope that throughout, they will engage directly, I will very much take the Minister up on his offer of a and indeed courteously, with the hon. Lady as a meeting, because I think a way forward can be found to representative of her constituents in this House. save the Walthamstow toy library where it is. I hope The hon. Lady raised two specific points that I am CHP and Waltham Forest CCG are listening very clearly, happy to look at and discuss with her: one was about and that they will finally start to engage properly with the IRR, and one was about levels of management fees. my community. In view of that, I wish everybody a If she will permit me, I will take those away and look at merry Christmas. them, and when we meet we can discuss those points. Edward Argar: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. If she This is a challenging situation, and clearly, some is able and happy to forward me a copy of that letter—she compromises may have to be made on both sides to may have to do so in confidence—I am very happy to move us forward. I have therefore already asked the look at it, because it will be useful for me to see it before CCG, CHP and the LIFT company to engage further we meet. She has raised a number of other questions; with the toy library, openly and constructively, and to forgive me, because I did not pick up on that one when I report back to me with a jointly agreed update on answered. Again, in so far as I am able to discuss that progress at the end of February. The hon. Lady has issue with her, I will do so, and my office will get in raised some significant issues, and I would hope to meet touch with hers after this debate to try to get us a with her well before that stage, because I am keen to meeting in January. I hope that, as I say, we will be able hear from her in a way that is not always possible in to find a constructive and positive way forward that debates in this House. Although debates may raise the works for the NHS, for her community and for all profile of an issue and highlight scrutiny of it, we can parties involved, including the toy library. sometimes get into more detail in a private conversation. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). I am very happy to meet her and see whether we can find a constructive way forward that genuinely meets 11.30 am the needs of her community. Thank you, Mr Hollobone. Sitting suspended. 159WH 16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 160WH

Breast Cancer Screening cancer screening services. It is a question of accessibility. The Peak district is beautiful, but our transport links are poor, especially in the winter months, when road [SIR EDWARD LEIGH in the Chair] closures are common because of extreme weather. For [Relevant document: e-petition 332828, Lower the age example, driving from the village of Rowarth to Bakewell that breast screening services are offered.] typically takes just under an hour and involves having to drive a good part of the way on single-track country 2.30 pm lanes, which are often closed when there is snow or heavy rainfall. Public transport links between the High Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): I beg to move, Peak and Bakewell are even more limited. The railway That this House has considered breast cancer screening. between Buxton and Bakewell closed in 1968, cutting It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, off the High Peak from the rest of Derbyshire. Sir Edward. I am very worried about how many women in my I am pleased to have secured this debate on a really area will be unable to make screening appointments, important issue that affects so many people in the High which is why I have been campaigning to get the mobile Peak and across the country. I am glad to see the screening unit reinstated in the High Peak as a matter of Minister in her place today and very grateful to her for urgency. In just a few weeks, over 2,000 local people meeting me to discuss this issue. I look forward to have signed my petition calling for its reinstatement. hearing her response to the debate, as well as the I hope that the Government will listen and that the thoughts of colleagues who are in Westminster Hall Minister can give my constituents good news today. I today. I pay tribute to those colleagues who have worked was very grateful to her for meeting me last week to so hard on this issue over many years, especially through discuss this issue, when she gave me positive news by the all-party parliamentary group on breast cancer. I assuring me that the current arrangement is temporary. pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member However, it has often been said that there is nothing for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey), who led a more permanent than a temporary Government measure, debate on this issue just last month. so I hope that she can be more specific today and that In my lifetime, we have come a long, long way on we can get a date for when we can expect these services breast cancer research, treatment and survival rates. to be reinstated to the High Peak. Despite that huge progress, breast cancer remains one More broadly, to help more people get a diagnosis of the biggest health challenges facing this country. early on, we need the capacity ready in our local health Every year, one in seven women will develop breast services. Breast Cancer Now found that 40% of hospital cancer, which is 55,000 women. Also, 370 men will trusts and health boards—including Stockport NHS develop breast cancer every year; it is important that we Foundation Trust, which runs Stepping Hill Hospital do not forget them. Almost 1,000 women die from and so serves a large part of my constituency—could breast cancer every month and around 600,000 people not say how many secondary breast cancer patients are living with or after breast cancer, including were under their care. 35,000 women living with secondary breast cancer. I Coronavirus has placed immense pressure on our will repeat those figures—almost 1,000 women die of NHS workforce and infrastructure. It is essential that breast cancer every month, which is around 11,500 women we keep the virus under control, but there is a heavy every year. Just in my small local area, an estimated cost. In March, the breast cancer screening programme 223 people develop breast cancer every year and 41 people was officially paused in Scotland, Wales and Northern die from it, almost all of them from secondary breast Ireland and was paused in all but name in England. cancer. Those numbers cannot begin to convey the Screening has restarted, but access is not rising fast heartbreak caused to too many families, who grieve the enough nationally, and it is falling in places such as loss of a mother, a sister, a daughter, a wife or a partner. High Peak. Breast cancer screening services in England We know that early diagnosis is the best way of are running at around 60% of normal capacity, according preventing these deaths and increasing the chances of to Cancer Research UK. As a result, there was a 70% drop survival. Around 186,000 women a month are screened in all cancers being reported in some parts of the in England, which prevents an estimated 1,300 deaths country, leading to nearly 107,000 fewer breast cancer every year. However, although it is true that there has referrals. Despite the fall in referrals, cancer waiting been increased uptake of screening nationally, that uptake times have increased. In August, the rate of achieving has not been evenly spread across the country. Of the the two-week wait target fell to 87.8% from 90% the women aged between 50 and 70 invited for screening in previous month. my local area, 69.7% attended within six months. That I am grateful to the digital engagement team and is lower than the 72.4% average across England. Breast Cancer Now for reaching out to people affected I fear that the situation in my area has been made by breast cancer screening delays caused by covid. I worse by the recent commissioning decision by NHS thank everyone who responded ahead of the debate to Midlands to withdraw the breast cancer mobile screening share their experiences. For example, Gill said: unit from Buxton, Chapel-en-le-Frith and New Mills in “My routine screening was rescheduled (twice) from April 2020 the High Peak, citing covid as the reason. Instead, my to Sep 2020. I was then diagnosed with stage 3 breast cancer constituents are being asked to travel to appointments spread to a lot of lymph nodes. I can’t help but wonder how much at Bakewell in the Derbyshire dales. better it would have been to have picked this up 6 months earlier.” I am very worried about the impact that decision is This has been happening to people across the country, having. To be clear, this is no slight at all on Newholme with serious consequences that must be addressed. Breast Hospital in Bakewell and the fantastic staff there; I pay Cancer Now estimates a backlog of nearly 1 million tribute to them and to all NHS staff working in breast women requiring screening across the UK because of 161WH Breast Cancer Screening16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 162WH the pause in March. We do not know how long it will a critical part of the next NHS people plan, setting out take to catch up. Around 8,600 of these women could a long-term strategy for the NHS workforce. I hope that have been living with undetected breast cancer. the Minister is able to update us on when she expects to As the general population ages and lives longer, the publish a plan to implement the review. It will also be number of women and men developing breast cancer interesting to learn how the new National Institute for has increased. Of course, people younger than 50 can Health Protection will affect the breast cancer screening also develop breast cancer, and it is important that they programme. also have access to screening. I take this chance to note It is crucial that people are not discouraged from that more than 13,000 people have signed an e-petition seeking help with a health problem. The NHS’s “Help in support of lowering the age at which screening services Us Help You” campaign is a promising initiative that are offered, including many in High Peak. We clearly urges people to speak to their GP if they are worried need to ramp up capacity to meet the rising demand for about possible cancer symptoms. I understand that screenings. Not doing so will put the NHS workforce people feel reluctant to come forward, worried that they infrastructure under incredible strain. I ask the Minister: might catch the virus or be a burden on the health what action are the Government taking to ensure that service, but it is more important than ever that women women respond to open invitations and make appointments are able to have a regular screening check-up. If the for screening, and how many women have been screened campaign is successful, I hope that the Minister will this year compared with last year? explain how the Government expect the NHS workforce Managing demand for screenings as a result of increased to cope with increased demand during the winter months. uptake and the backlog created by covid requires a The Government need to set out how capacity in the long-term strategy to raise capacity, with a strong focus diagnostic workforce will be managed; provide funding on the NHS workforce. There is a serious worry of to grow the workforce and ensure they are properly burnout among NHS workers due to the sustained resourced; and increase the number of facilities where physical, psychological and emotional pressure of this people can be diagnosed. That includes reinstating difficult year. A British Medical Association survey important services across the country, such as the mobile revealed that 28% of doctors have found non-covid screening unit in High Peak. Failure to do so will reduce demand to be higher than before the pandemic, with our chances of delivering the early diagnosis, treatment 58% saying that they are concerned about their ability and care that could help thousands of people beat to care for patients, 44% worried about plans to manage breast cancer. the huge backlog of patients and 65% saying that staffing shortages are the most pressing concern. 2.42 pm That is compounded by the fact that a considerable proportion of the breast cancer screening workforce Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) (Con): It is a is approaching retirement. Around half of all pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. mammographers are aged 50 and likely to retire in five I thank my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak to 10 years. This has led to a rise in vacancies for crucial (Robert Largan) for securing this important debate. roles. Public Health England has reported a 15% vacancy Finding breast cancer early will save lives—that is the rate for mammography; that only 18% of screening bottom line and has always been the case. The earlier units are adequately resourced with radiotherapy staff; breast cancer is diagnosed, the more likely it is that and that one in four trusts and health boards has at treatment will be successful. That is the messaging that least one vacant consultant breast radiologist post. needs to be harnessed moving forward. Fifty-five thousand Ensuring that the breast imaging and diagnostic workforce women and 370 men are diagnosed with breast cancer is fully staffed and trained is critical to the delivery of in the UK per year. We are doing much better, but those the commitment in the NHS England long-term plan to figures are a stark reminder of the prevalence of this ensure that the proportion of cancers diagnosed at type of cancer in our communities. stages 1 and 2 rises from around half to three quarters In my local patch, West Bromwich East has about by 2028. I understand that the pandemic delayed the 141 per 10,000 people developing breast cancer,compared publication of the full implementation plan, but further with 168 per 10,000 across England. That means 284 people detailed is needed. in my constituency are diagnosed with breast cancer NHS workforce development was not mentioned in every year. In West Bromwich, 67.5% of women aged 50 the recent spending review, and there has not been a to 70 are invited to attend a screening within six months—a national NHS workforce strategy since 2003. We need figure that is significantly worse than the 72.4% across to prioritise that work to be sure that the new NHS England. The uptake of screening appointment invitations funding is being used in the best way possible. Long-term is also significantly worse than the England average. solutions cannot be sacrificed because of short-term Aside from screening appointment uptake, we have a pressures. wider issue that affects the entire NHS. As an increased I am therefore glad that the Government asked Professor percentage of the population becomes eligible for breast Sir Mike Richards to review screening programmes as cancer screening, the existing infrastructure needs to part of the NHS long-term plan. The review concluded evolve to meet that demand, in terms of both a trained that the main obstacle to achieving the commitment on workforce and diagnosis machines. Indeed, Professor cancer diagnosis is the size of the workforce, and the Sir Mike Richards’ independent review of adult screening equipment and facilities available to them. Professor programmes in England, which was committed to in the Sir Mike Richards recommended that we recruit NHS long-term plan, made some incredibly interesting 2,000 additional radiologists and 4,000 radiographers, findings when it was published last year. Most strikingly, as well as other support staff, and replace outdated according to the review, screening programmes are testing machines. Those recommendations ought to be constrained by the size and nature of their workforce 163WH Breast Cancer Screening16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 164WH

[Nicola Richards] areas and some black and minority ethnic groups. How can we reach these people, reassure them and encourage and by the equipment and facilities available to them. them to be screened? I would be grateful if the Minister That will act as a barrier to implementing the review’s has any ideas on this. Will she also confirm what action recommendations. the Government are taking to ensure that women are The breast cancer screening workforce are being put sent open invitations to make an appointment for screening, under increasing strain as the populations eligible for and what success there has been in the take-up of open breast screening increase. Creating the capacity for that invitations? change is key to ensuring that screening programmes Our NHS staff have worked tirelessly over the course are fit for the future. The Chancellor’s spending review of this dreadful pandemic and made sacrifices on an announcement committing £325 million for the NHS to unimaginable scale. We need to back them in this place invest in new diagnostics machines such as MRI and on breast cancer screening too. I passionately believe CT scanners was clearly welcome, but that is only a that it is everyone’s role to promote the importance of short-term fix to address the current backlog. Ultimately, breast cancer screening and early diagnosis, and to it comes down to education about the importance of ensure that we have the right number of women screened the issue and of the process of getting women to be as early as possible. After covid-19 is over, this should screened. We also need to move away from the idea that be one of our new “saving lives” messages. only the over-50s are diagnosed with breast cancer; young people are affected too. 2.47 pm Various online petitions to lower the age at which breast cancer screening services are offered outline a Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): It is a crucial point. Research shows that the X-ray mammogram pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. test used in the breast cancer screening procedures, I thank the hon. Member for High Peak (Robert Largan) which can spot cancer when it is too small to see or feel, for securing this debate. The hon. Member for West is much less effective in younger women due to their Bromwich East (Nicola Richards) made a remarkably tissue density. Therefore, educating young women to good speech, citing her own family’s experience. check for anything abnormal in their body has never Both hon. Members have spoken about Breast Cancer been more important, mainly because we know that Now’s assessment that almost 1 million women have they have a much higher chance of survival if it is missed a screening during this period. Its assessment is caught early. that that would mean 8,650 women may be out there I ask the Minister to update us on the Government’s with undetected breast cancer. Cancer Research UK plans to lower the age at which breast screening services assesses that screening services are running at 60% capacity. are offered and on what the Government plan to do to That means the situation is getting worse week by week. help younger people identify breast cancer sooner. The A hundred fewer women started treatment for breast NHS has a serious job on its hands to break down these cancer each day in May and June than during those barriers, where people simply think it will be okay and months in 2019. do not get screened. Weneed to be proactive in encouraging If we look beyond breast cancer, in my county of people to take this seriously. Cumbria there is a 17% reduction in the number of We have made amazing progress so far, but more can people starting cancer treatment this year compared to be done and early diagnosis is key. I can relate to that 2019. It is fair to assume, therefore, that roughly one in directly. Six months after my aunt passed away from six people who would have been diagnosed with cancers secondary breast cancer, my mum—her sister—was also of all kinds is out there undiagnosed. We know that for diagnosed. I advised her to be on the lookout for early every four weeks treatment is delayed, for whatever signs, namely dimples. She is in full health now, but if I reason, the chances one has of survival fall by 10%. had not told her of the signs back then, things could That delay in treatment can be due to a delay in people have been different. My mum would not have gone to coming forward, a delay in diagnosis and a delay in see her GP and she would not have known some of the treatment. lesser-known early warning signs of breast cancer. Any Government of any combination of colours The coronavirus pandemic has caused a backlog in would have been thrown by the coronavirus. In those screening and treatment. Breast Cancer Now estimates early months the messaging was really good and powerful: that a significant backlog of nearly 1 million women “Stay at home. Protect the NHS. Save lives.” It often requiring screening built up across the UK in the course occurs to me that the position of the NHS in British of this year. It is unclear how long it will take to catch society, the affection in which it is held, was a key driver. up. Some measures have been taken to try to ensure I suspect that in another country, where the message attendance at the reduced number of appointments might have been, “Protect the expensive private healthcare available. In England, from the end of September to the that you use, through exorbitant insurance models,” end of March 2021, women will be sent open invitations would probably have been less compelling. The NHS to call and make an appointment for screening, rather was a key driver and the Government deployed it well. than a timed appointment. Why were we protecting the NHS? We were doing so Research shows that the number of women making not only so that we could tackle covid, but so that the appointments is significantly lower than those who NHS could carry on its lifesaving work in every other attend timed appointments.That could worsen the persistent area. People not coming forward for treatment, for decline that we have seen in the take-up of breast cancer reasons that have been mentioned, such as being scared screening in recent years. The impact this will have on of being infected or nervousness about being a burden groups among which the uptake is already low is particularly and troubling staff, is a huge part of the reason why the concerning—for example, women living in deprived backlog exists. 165WH Breast Cancer Screening16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 166WH

There were treatment cancellations for perfectly good correct response to covid. However, in the comprehensive clinical reasons, as well as those for not good clinical spending review there was just a single mention of reasons. I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group cancer in the entire document. on radiotherapy, and Members would be staggered if I There are three issues at play here, the first of which did not talk about radiotherapy as a treatment for is people having the confidence and awareness to come breast cancer and other forms. Radiotherapy is the forward, as has been mentioned. The second is the clean form of cancer treatment. It does not affect diagnostic process and the third is the treatment. Issue immunity and is not likely to open up someone to one, the issue of people being brought forward or infection. The amount of radiotherapy being delivered encouraged to come forward for treatment, is about during that period should not have been changed, because strong public health and public information messages, people are at no more risk of covid from taking it and, and all of us getting behind them and being open about because it is a clean form of treatment, it should be the necessity—as was mentioned, rightly, by the hon. substitutionary. It could be used, and in some cases has Member for West Bromwich East—for a person to been, as a substitute for more risky forms of cancer come forward if they have the slightest hint of a doubt treatment, such as chemotherapy and surgery, where that something might be wrong or unusual with any that was necessary. In some cases, that has happened, part of their body. which should be noted. Issues two and three, diagnostics and treatment, need For example, bladder radiotherapy treatment is now more than an ad campaign. They need more than good at 160% of normal levels and capacity. In that area at public relations and public information: they need money. least, we are using that clean technology to catch up It has been mentioned that within the CSR, £325 million with cancer in that area. The problem is that it is not the was set aside for diagnostic machines, but the CSR says case across the board. We do not have figures since that that is summer, but Public Health England has just released “enough funding to replace over two thirds of imaging equipment figures from April to the summer, which showed a that is over 10 years old.” 15% drop in radiotherapy treatments started during In other words, it is money to replace some of the stuff that time. That includes starting in April, so that that ought to have already been replaced. It is not cannot have been a response to fewer people coming new—it is not expanded capacity—and yet, when it through. comes to treatment, we have not got even that. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence This was the Government’s opportunity. As chair of recommendations and guidance at the beginning of the all-party parliamentary group on radiotherapy, along coronavirus were to stop, postpone or delay radiotherapy with the Catch Up With Cancer campaign and the treatment—for no clinical reason whatsoever. Some all-party parliamentary group on cancer—which I am cancer centres followed that advice and people did not proud to also be a member of—we made a submission get treatment. We know what that means for people’s to the Department of Health and Social Care and to likelihood of surviving. That 15% drop in radiotherapy the Treasury, calling for an immediate fund to catch up treatment will have cost lives. It was unnecessary and it with cancer. That did not arrive, and I am going to means that the backlog is even greater than it would shock the Minister by reminding her of a promise that have been. she made me in this place a couple of weeks ago—to meet me and the Catch Up With Cancer team before Cancer Research UK has estimated that we will Christmas, to look at how we can get that urgently unnecessarily lose 35,000 lives to cancer because of the needed ring-fenced investment through the spending crisis. The British Medical Journal published research a review and into additional cancer diagnosis and treatments. few weeks ago that showed we would lose, as a country, I would like to hold her to that promise, and I hope she 60,000 additional years of life to cancer, because of the will refer to it in her closing remarks. coronavirus crisis. Alongside covid, the early diagnosis of women with When breast cancer screening services are running at breast cancer, so that we can treat them and cure them, just 60% of capacity and we are witnessing a 50% reduction is an ongoing problem. The United Kingdom is towards in the number of people starting radiotherapy treatment, the bottom of the league tables for most of the major we see a backlog that can only be getting worse as we cancers when it comes to survival. To the Government’s speak. I want to endorse what has been said by the credit, they acknowledged that in the NHS long-term Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, the plan released two years ago. Its fundamental aim—the right hon. Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy headline part of that NHS long-term plan—was to Hunt)—that it will take NHS cancer screening, diagnostics diagnose more people early with all cancers, including and treatment services, as a piece, operating at 120%usb breast cancer, so that we could treat them and cure capacity for two solid years to catch up fully with the them, and so that survival rates would be far better than backlog, to catch up with cancer. the terrible situation that we have for most cancers in Members will have been as deeply moved as I was by this country now. the recent sad death of Sherwin Hall, a 27-year-old I say to the Minister that if we are successful in father of two, as a result of delayed treatment. His diagnosing more people sooner, earlier—and we must family have been supported by the Catch Up With be successful—we will then need the capacity to treat Cancer campaign, launched by the family of Kelly those people, and we do not have that. Radiotherapy is Smith, who also died far too young as a result of delays part of the solution, so it is absolutely essential to invest to her treatment during this process. Catch Up With now in the kit, the technology and—as has been Cancer estimates that the backlog might be up to mentioned—the workforce, in order to be able to deliver 100,000 people. This is a national crisis on the scale of treatments to those people who have been diagnosed covid—different, but on the same scale—and it needs a early. How tragic would it be to diagnose maybe tens of response as ambitious and as urgent as the NHS’s thousands more people earlier than we do at the moment, 167WH Breast Cancer Screening16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 168WH

[Tim Farron] Northern Ireland, I have had the opportunity over the years to get to know some of my constituents personally. and then not have the kit, the capacity, the staff or the The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale referred technology to treat them? That is a challenge that the to two names. I never refer to names—they probably Government can meet, and I hope the Minister will take would not know who they are when they are referred to that on board and do just that. in this Chamber, but I do not do that because this is a very personal thing. It is a very physical problem that 2.58 pm they have gone through. Some of those people have survived and some have not. As an elected representative Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you for and a person with compassion, as we all are in this calling me, Sir Edward. First of all, I congratulate the House, my heart goes out to those who are in need of hon. Member for High Peak (Robert Largan) on the way treatment and need it now. that he set the scene. I thank the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Nicola Richards) for her contributions, We cannot neglect—I do not think there is an intention as well as the hon. Member for Westmorland and to do so—those with cancer, because time is of the Lonsdale (Tim Farron), and I also thank him for the essence and early diagnosis is needed. This is where we leadership that he gives to the all-party parliamentary are. What I and other Members want is a different set of group on radiotherapy. I am a member of that APPG, statistics for next year. We do not want to be referring to but I know that the person who moves it and makes it the 100,000 and some of the other stats that I will give happen is the hon. Gentleman, along with other colleagues in a few minutes. We want statistics that show more who are trying to make this subject a focus for every one early diagnosis, more successful outcomes and—please, of us. God—nowhere near 1,000 grieving loved ones. How do The statistics for breast cancer are horrifying. The we achieve that? That is the key issue of this debate, and hon. Member for High Peak set them out in his why we are here. I believe we all agree on this. It is introduction, but I want to repeat them. It is salient and simple: screening. Early screening, frequent screening, important to focus on the stats, because they are not structuredscreening,simplescreening—screening,screening, just stats: they are a person’s life and they affect everybody screening. We need to get that into our minds for how around them. That is what I want to refer to. The breast we deal with this. We are here today because we all have cancer stats are clear: 55,000 women and 370 men are the same idea. That is how we get better outcomes. diagnosed every year in the UK. We sometimes overlook In the media and the newspapers yesterday and every the fact that men can get breast cancer—not in the same other day I can recall, we have had stats for cancer numbers or percentages as ladies, but none the less it treatment. We cannot fail to be annoyed when we see can develop in them. the stats for the people who are waiting for treatment, One in seven women in the UK will develop breast diagnosis or screening. It has all been put on hold, and cancer, and 35,000 women are living with incurable we need to look at that urgently. The hon. Member for secondary breast cancer. Almost 1,000 die from breast Westmorland and Lonsdale referred to the Government cancer in the UK every month. Perhaps if they response to covid-19. The Government responded in an had screening, that would not have happened. That is excellent way. They made all the necessary resources 1,000 mothers, daughters, sisters—1,000 homes that available and they gave us hope, up to the stage where will never recover from the loss. We must never we are now, with the vaccine in place. That hope will underestimate the loss and hurt that people feel when lead us into next year. Perhaps by this time next year someone they love is no longer there. We sometimes everyone in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and focus on the “if only”—we do not know what that “if Northern Ireland will have had that vaccine; that would only” would have done, but it does come into our minds be our hope. and our questions. The coronavirus is the biggest crisis that breast cancer About 600,000 people in the UK are living with or care has faced in decades. With every month that passes, beyond breast cancer. Let us be honest: if it is caught in more women with breast cancer could be missing the time and if the surgery and treatment go correctly, best possible chance of early diagnosis, which is key to people can live for longer. We should perhaps not preventing death from the disease. The breast screening always focus on the negatives, although this debate is programme was officially paused in Scotland, Wales about breast cancer and is an opportunity to highlight and Northern Ireland, and effectively paused in England, the issues that we feel are important. Health is a devolved in March. Screening has now restarted, although that matter in Northern Ireland, and I understand that the has happened more quickly in some parts of the country Minister cannot answer for it—I am not asking her than others. to—but I want to make a contribution to this debate Breast Cancer Now has estimated that a significant because what happens here on the mainland will be backlog of nearly a million women requiring screening replicated in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. built up across the UK during the first pause, which is a I said that it is not only the person who has breast massive number. If a million ladies are waiting to have cancer who suffers. We have to look at the families the screening, that underlines the importance of putting around them who also suffer—those who feel the pain resources into that, to try and give people peace of of their partner or loved one who unfortunately has mind. It is unclear how long it will take to catch up. breast cancer and, in some cases, is still waiting for the Around 8,600 of those women could have been living treatment or screening that they need. with undetected breast cancer, which is a worry. I am my party’s spokesman, and I have a deep interest When my wife went to get the test, we got the results in health matters. That is why I attend all health debates back quickly, but imagine what it would be like for whenever I have the opportunity. I cannot get to them someone waiting for the screening if they suspected all, but I do my best to get to most of them. Back in something was wrong but were not sure. Sometimes the 169WH Breast Cancer Screening16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 170WH screening can diagnose at an early stage something that to hear how that can and will be provided, in the light of the individual was not aware of or might not see themselves. the additional covid-19 demands. Covid-19 is not over Can the Minister be so kind, during her closing remarks, yet. I wish it was, but at least we are going the right way. to clarify what the Government mean when they say We can see the light at the end of the tunnel and there is they have cleared the backlog on breast cancer screening? hope for the future, but we need the same hope for those Does that mean that open invitations to breast screening with cancer. have been sent, but not that the actual screening has happened? I have every confidence that the Minister’s 3.11 pm response will answer those questions and give us the Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): It is always a hope and reassurance that we need. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. The expected increase in referrals and backlog of I thank the hon. Member for High Peak (Robert Largan) women waiting for breast screening will lead naturally for securing this important debate. It is also important to an increase in demand for diagnostic and imaging to thank all the NHS staff who are working so hard to services in the coming months, threatening to overwhelm keep services running during this difficult time, and the a workforce that was already stretched before the pandemic. cancer charities working to keep funds coming in and Combined with a reduction in the number of people awareness high, and to support those living with a that services will be able to see, as a result of infection cancer diagnosis. High-profile breast cancer awareness prevention and control measures, there is grave concern events such as the “wear it pink” photocalls that we are that that may lead to people waiting longer to be diagnosed all so used to were lost to the virus this year, so there is a and receive treatment. Again, we need reassurance. lot of ground to make up to keep the UK’s fourth biggest killer high on the political agenda. A recent survey by the British Medical Association revealed that 28% of doctors—the people on the frontline, Thanks to a combination of advances in the medical doing the work—have found non-covid demand higher sciences, treatments, early diagnosis and screening, breast than before the pandemic. They recognise a serious gap cancer survival has doubled in the last 40 years, but the that needs to be filled. Moreover, 58% are concerned necessity of disrupting routine screenings has created a about their ability to care for non-covid patients, 44% are danger of progress taking a significant step backwards. worried about the plans to manage the huge backlog of There are immense challenges, now, for the NHS, in patients and 65% say staffing shortages are their most meeting an influx of demand, when we are clearly still pressing concern. I understand those concerns, and I in the teeth of the pandemic. As members of the Royal look genuinely and respectfully to the Minister for her College of Radiologists report, challenges are made all answers. the tougher by the extra infection control methods needed at screening centres, limited availability of space The unprecedented pressures put on the NHS by the because of distancing, and, at times, staff and equipment first wave of the pandemic, which have already had shortages because of redeployment. damaging impacts on diagnosis and treatment for breast As other hon. Members have said, Breast Cancer cancer patients, are now being exacerbated by the second Now estimates that nearly 1 million women in the UK wave and the winter pressures, which we all know are missed potentially life-saving mammograms because of coming to every region in the United Kingdom. Winter covid-19. There was also a marked fall in the number of pressures come every year, but this year they will be urgent breast cancer referrals from GPs during the greater because of the waiting lists and the ways we are pandemic. That was due to a range of factors, including dealing with that. reluctance to take up the scheduled appointments, worry While it is great to see Health Education England about catching the virus, or a lack of awareness that receive an additional £260 million to train more staff in while routine screenings were paused the majority of 2021-22, Cancer Research UK estimates that £140 million cancer treatment services continued throughout. According to £260 million is needed over the next 35 years to grow to Macmillan Cancer Support, 100 fewer women started the cancer workforce alone. It is not only about responding treatment for breast cancer each working day in May to the current waiting lists, but how we deal with the and June 2020, compared with a year ago. It estimates growing number of those with cancer over the next few that there are 50,000 missing cancer diagnoses across years. An additional £260 million for HEE’s total budget the UK because of covid-19 disruption. in 2021-22 should go some way to address that, but will Those are serious causes for concern. Cancer patients not fill the gap. cannot be allowed to be collateral damage as we struggle I conclude by reflecting on the comment by the hon. to fight the pandemic. All of us have a role to play in Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, because to encouraging take-up of opportunities for screening, me it is the key to the issue. The Government self-checks and getting out the message that the NHS is responded in an exceptional way to covid-19. They there for people if they are worried about cancer. Covid made the resources available. A strategy for something continues to dominate the headlines, but the NHS has we had never dealt with before was difficult to get never stopped prioritising cancer cases. together, but they did it in a way we all welcomed—we Governments also have a role in communicating about give credit where it is due—until now we have the vaccine. cancer services, and making sure that there is investment However, when it comes to cancer we need a similar in facilities and staff in the NHS cancer workforce. As policy and strategy, so that we can give peace of mind to the RCR reports, the clinical radiology workforce was all those people who have breast cancer, and have a already under strain before the pandemic. One in four worrying process to go through. The Government have English trusts has at least one vacant consultant breast shown they can do it, and I believe they, and the radiologist post, and the UK has fewer CT and MRI Minister, can again respond in a way that will show us scanners than the majority of comparable OECD countries. we can deal with breast cancer. We need a dedicated Decisions about the NHS are made by the devolved strategy and long-term investment. I look to the Minister Government in Scotland. Thankfully, the Scottish 171WH Breast Cancer Screening16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 172WH

[Owen Thompson] Government to increase funding for NHS England to match per capita spending in Scotland. That would Government are working to minimise disruption in the have amounted to a £35 billion increase by 2023-24. face of the covid-19 challenges. They have invested an The £3 billion offered for the next year is only a third of additional £10 million to support cancer treatment what we have been calling for on a yearly basis. After a throughout the pandemic and beyond, in addition to decade of austerity, the sum is not even enough to cover purchasing six additional MRI scanners and three the cost of outstanding hospital repairs in England, let additional CT scanners to aid cancer diagnosis, at a alone recover from the coronavirus and deliver decent cost of £5.6 million. cancer care moving forwards. There is much to be done, but I welcome the fact that I urge the UK Government to do all they can—to there has been an 89.6% increase in consultant oncologists “build back better”, to borrow their phrase—and to in Scotland under the current SNP Administration and properly and genuinely invest in the NHS to save lives. a 54.4% increase in consultant radiologists. Early detection will also be improved by more GPs. Scotland has 76 GPs 3.18 pm per 100,000 population, compared with the UK average Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It of just 60. There are also two new early cancer diagnostic is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, centres, which will be opened in the spring of next year. Sir Edward. I thank the hon. Member for High Peak I have a great deal of sympathy for the request to (Robert Largan) for securing this important debate and extend screening to younger men and women in the for his introductory speech. It is clear that he feels very petition that we are debating today. It is always passionately about improving access to breast cancer heartbreaking to hear of cases that are not diagnosed screening for his constituents.He was right that tremendous early enough, leading to long battles to fight the disease progress has been made in tackling this awful disease in and a greater chance of lives being lost too early. We recent years, but there is still an awful long way to go, as know the risk is related to age and is highest in women we have heard today. over 50—they account for 80% of cases—but that is The hon. Gentleman mentioned the importance of cold comfort to the 10,000 women under 50 and the screening, as most Members did. I was very sorry to 370 men in the UK who receive the dreaded diagnosis hear that the mobile screening service in his constituency each year. Catching this disease early is essential to has been temporarily halted. I hope it is a temporary saving more lives. I would back screening for all in a halt and the Minister is able to give us some good news heartbeat if it was justified clinically, but it is just one when she responds. It is particularly disappointing because tool in the toolbox and it is not always the best one to the hon. Member spoke very highly of that service in use. the last debate we had on this matter, only last month. There are harms as well as benefits to getting He certainly set out very clearly why moving to the mammograms, and decisions on routine screening system that we have at the moment is presenting a programmes are all about getting the balance right. The particular challenge to his constituents. He also gave four nations of the UK all take advice on screening some very personal testimony about the consequences from medical experts at the UK National Screening of a delay in screening, showing why, of course, access Committee and the Scottish Government concur with is important. the points made in the UK Government’s response to We have heard some other excellent contributions the petition. this afternoon. The hon. Member for West Bromwich If there is one thing that the pandemic should have East (Nicola Richards) cited her local area’s statistics to taught politicians—perhaps even the Chancellor of the point out that the figure for screening appointments in Duchy of Lancaster—it is that we should be listening to her constituency was lower than the national average; experts. Their views are so important. It is the scientists clearly, such a situation is something that all Members and clinicians who are guiding us through the pandemic can play a role in remedying. She was right to say that and providing hope for a solution through their incredible the key to all this is being proactive and encouraging efforts to find treatments and vaccines. So, too, should people to seek screening and early diagnosis. She gave a we trust evidence on screening. The Marmot review of very personal example of how that approach had made the benefits and harms of breast cancer screening identified a real difference to someone very close to her. overdiagnosis as one of the dangers, stating: The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale “The consequences of overdiagnosis matter, women are turned (Tim Farron) extrapolated from his local statistics to into patients unnecessarily, surgery and other forms of cancer state that about one in six people who would ordinarily treatment are undertaken, and quality of life and psychological well being are adversely affected.” have received treatment this year are not receiving it. He mentioned his work as the chair of the all-party Only 1% of cases involve men. There is a need for us parliamentary group on radiotherapy and I commend to focus on messaging and spread the awareness that him for his consistent work in that particular forum. He breast cancer is possible for both sexes, although at a far referred, quite rightly, to the 15% drop in the use of lower risk for men. Perhaps we all need to do that bit radiotherapy treatment, which is of particular concern. more to highlight that point, to make sure that men He said that he does not believe that there were good self-check and seek treatment where necessary. medical reasons for that reduction, so there is a challenge Although there is largely consensus on the science, for the Minister to go back to trusts to see whether there there is perhaps more divergence on these isles about are reasons beyond medical reasons why these treatments the resources needed. Warm words about tackling cancer are not taking place. He described the situation as a are easy, but they need to be backed up by sustained crisis on the scale of covid and said that it needs a and substantial further investment. Ahead of November’s Government response on that scale to tackle the issues comprehensive spending review, the SNP called on the that we have discussed today. 173WH Breast Cancer Screening16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 174WH

Those sentiments were also expressed by the hon. will be around 8,600 who do have breast cancer, but it Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who gave a remains undetected. As Members have set out, the typically passionate and well-informed speech. I am reasons for that backlog are numerous. Social distancing sure that we all agreed with him when he said that he and infection control means that many cancer services would like to read out a different set of statistics in a can operate only at about 60% of their capacity. As the debate on this issue next year. Like all the hon. Members hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale pointed who have spoken today, he very clearly set out the out, that means the situation might get worse rather importance of screening. He also raised a number of than better. Services were already under severe strain other issues, which I will touch on in my remarks. during the first few months of this year, and we know This is the second Westminster Hall debate on breast about the unprecedented steps that the NHS has had to cancer in as many months, which reflects the importance take to deal with the large influx of covid-19 patients, of this subject. On both occasions, it has been evident which has led to an effective pausing of breast screening from the testimonies of Members how many people in England. have had their own lives touched by breast cancer. Of course, not only the screening programme was Debates such as this one are important because, as affected. Breast Cancer Now has also reported that the many Members have mentioned, the various statistics number of people referred to see a specialist with suspected out there show that there are very few people whose cancer declined dramatically during the peak of the lives are not touched by this issue in some way. As we coronavirus outbreak in April. It estimates that across have heard from many Members, one in seven women in the UK there are likely to be nearly 107,000 fewer breast the UK will develop breast cancer during their lifetime—on cancer referrals. Some of those women could be living average, that is 55,000 women, as well as 370 men, every with undetected breast cancer, and with every month year. Around 600,000 people in the UK are living with that passes more women will be missing that early or beyond breast cancer, and, sadly, around 35,000 people diagnosis that we have all heard today is the key to have incurable secondary breast cancer. preventing death. As the hon. Members for High Peak and for Strangford Although screening programmes have now restarted, both said, almost 1,000 women die from breast cancer we have heard that that has happened more quickly in in the UK every month, almost all of them from secondary some parts of the country. Breast cancer charities have breast cancer. The hon. Member for Strangford put raised concerns about the current strategy that has been things very well when he reminded us that these statistics adopted to clear the backlog, with the plan to send are about real people and real homes, which may never women open invitations to call and make an appointment recover from such a tragic loss. We must never forget the from September this year to the end of March. As the human tragedy behind these figures when we read them hon. Member for West Bromwich East said, research out in debates such as this one. has shown that the number of women who make appointments is sometimes lower than the number of This very important issue affects so many people, but women who actually attend for a timed appointment. there are also many people who are united in their desire to do all they can to beat this disease. I pay Breast Cancer Now fears the strategy could worsen tribute to all the dedicated campaigners, ambassadors the persistent decline that we have seen in the uptake of and charities, who all do their bit to make life a little bit screening in recent years. It has also raised concerns, as easier for those suffering with cancer. We must, of did the hon. Member for West Bromwich East, about course, pay tribute to the NHS staff for everything that the impact on groups, among which uptake is already they do, not just this year—the most difficult of years—but low, such as those who live in deprived areas and those every year, in the fight against cancer. I also thank from black and minority ethnic groups. This is particularly Breast Cancer Now for its continuing support for all important at a time when surveys have shown that politicians from all parties in the House and, most people are reluctant to come forward with symptoms importantly, the support it gives to those living with or due to concerns about catching coronavirus and giving affected by breast cancer, because, as we have heard, it to the family, and putting pressure on an already very more women, thankfully, are now surviving breast cancer busy NHS. When the Minister responds, will she tell us than ever before. a little more about what steps the Government can take to ensure that the women who have received open As many Members have already said, the key to that invitations for screening are able to take those up in the is screening, because we know that the earlier a cancer is coming months? diagnosed, the more likely it is that treatment will be It is very welcome that October’s NHS breast cancer successful. We also know that currently around 95% of waiting times showed an increase in referrals for people women diagnosed will survive for more than one year with potential symptoms of breast cancer to see a and more than 80% for more than five years. specialist. However, the crucial targets for women to be In the debate on this issue last month, I touched on seen within two weeks was missed. There are immense the impact of coronavirus on early diagnosis, as most pressures on our health service at the moment, but Members have today. Cancer Research UK estimates before the pandemic the breast imaging and diagnostic that around 3 million people are waiting for breast, work was already overstretched and under severe pressure bowel or cervical screening, and Macmillan estimates because of increased demand on their services—and that there are currently around 50,000 missing diagnoses that of course has been compounded, as many Members from this year compared to last year. This is the biggest have referred to, by the shortages and vacancies in the crisis that cancer has faced in decades. workforce. Breast Cancer Now estimates a significant backlog of As the hon. Member for High Peak mentioned, Public nearly 1 million women requiring screening has built up Health England has previously reported a vacancy rate during this year. Among the women still waiting for of 15% for mammography staff. About half of all their screening, we know from the statistics that there mammographers are aged 50 or over and therefore 175WH Breast Cancer Screening16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 176WH

[Justin Madders] I want to state clearly that screening services are back up and that the availability of breast screening to everyone likely to retire in the next 10 to 15 years. That is very who needs it is there. However, the recovery of those concerning, given the importance of mammograms in services from the disruption this year is not only a detecting breast cancer. priority for me, but an enormous challenge, for exactly Of equal concern is what Breast Cancer Now tells us: the reasons that have been laid out so eloquently by all only 18% of breast screening units are adequately resourced contributors to the debate. We know that our cancer with radiography staff in line with breast screening workforce had challenges before we went into the pandemic. uptake demand in their area, and one in four trusts and Let me remind Members of something that only the health boards across the UK has at least one vacant hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) briefly consultant breast radiologist post. Sadly, that situation referred to: yesterday, 506 families lost a loved one to is unlikely to improve any time soon as vacancies are set covid. It is still with us. We are in a covid-tinged world, to increase with about a quarter of breast radiologists and that affects how quickly we can drive other services. forecast to retire over the next five years. However, the resumption of cancer services across the A recent analysis of NHS trust risk registers showed piece—be they treatment, diagnosis or screening—has that 83% of trusts surveyed reported a workforce risk, been the No. 1 priority for me from the time we understood including not having enough staff to manage cancer and were able to drive those things in. care, showing the NHS entering the pandemic with I am glad that hon. Members who have taken part in huge holes in the workforce. the debate recognise the importance of breast screening The Government commissioned reviews that have in the early detection of breast cancer. As with any highlighted some concerns. We heard from the hon. diagnosis of cancer, early detection gives people a better Member for High Peak and various other Members chance. The simple fact is that screening saves lives. about the independent review of adult screening I very gently take the Member for Westmorland and programmes in England, which found that such Lonsdale (Tim Farron) to task on the statistic that programmes are constrained by the size and nature of every four weeks represents a 10% lower chance of their workforce and by the equipment and facilities survival. Cancers, as he well knows, vary enormously in available to them. As we heard, Professor Sir Mike type, grade and everything else. I do not want people Richards’s review, which was commissioned by Sir Simon not to come forward for screening, diagnosis or treatment Stevens, found that significant investment in facilities, because they feel that any loss of time will have had a equipment and workforce was needed. That means negative impact. It has to be that as soon as you have a replacing outdated testing machines and expanding the symptom, you come forward. Campaigns such as “Be imaging workforce by about 2,000 additional radiologists Clear on Cancer” and “Help Us Help You” are driving and 4,000 radiographers, as well as support staff. at giving people confidence. In September, a Public Accounts Committee report We have ensured that services are safe, and our aim is called on the Government urgently to prioritise publication for people to be able to access them as quickly as of the long-term workforce plan. Unfortunately, that possible, secure in the knowledge that they are safe. I exposed the lack of long-term thinking in the current will cover this later, but while I understand what my approach to the NHS workforce. Such thinking is vital hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich East (Nicola if we are to see the NHS perform at the level we all want Richards) and the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and it to. We need to see a full five-year people plan, with Neston (Justin Madders) were saying, the whole point costed actions within it. of open appointments is to maximise the use of available The pandemic has shown, as other Members said, capacity versus fixed-time appointments.A health inequality just how valuable and appreciated NHS staff are, but it impact assessment has been done to try to make sure has also highlighted the unaddressed long-term issues that nobody is disproportionately impacted, and I have of excessive workload, burn-out and the inequalities asked for a specific eye to be kept on that. Now, if you experienced by staff. The rhetoric on support for our like— NHS staff needs to be matched by action. As we have heard today, that commitment is vital to ensuring that Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. As a matter of breast cancer services can safely continue to give all courtesy, it is normal for Ministers to address the Chair. those affected by breast cancer the very best chances of survival. I hope that we will hear from the Minister Jo Churchill: I am so sorry, Sir Edward. As I was about how that ambition, which we all share, will be saying, the challenge is that there is variation in the delivered. system. That variation occurs for a plethora of reasons, not only those that are covered by an impact assessment 3.31 pm on accessibility via open appointments. It is important The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health to keep an eye on all the data. and Social Care (Jo Churchill): It is a pleasure to serve I am proud that we have a national breast screening under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. programme that offers every woman between the ages I thank my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak of 50 and 70 an appointment every three years. We will (Robert Largan) for securing this important debate. As strain every sinew to ensure that nobody waits longer he and many Members know, breast health—diagnosis, than 36 months. We will not step back from that, even treatment and research, as well as screening—is a matter with the challenge of driving the backlog down. The that is close to my heart. I am honoured to respond on programme reaches millions of women and detects this important issue on behalf of the Government, and approximately 20,000 cancers each year. I recognise the on behalf of women and the 3% of men who are challenge, but every single individual provider has diagnosed with breast cancer every year. been asked to produce a recovery plan, which should 177WH Breast Cancer Screening16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 178WH help us to understand the variation. I recognise that Screening has been made a clear priority this winter about half a million women are waiting, but there are and NHS commissioners have been instructed, where also 500,000 women who have not replied. They will humanly possible, not to redeploy their staff or their need to be re-approached and encouraged into the facilities away from screening services. It is a priority, system. It is incumbent on everyone to give women the and that is absolutely the right approach. My message confidence to come forward. to everyone is that breast screening services are running, We have also had to look at making sure that women they are safe, they will continue to run through the are asked to come forward in accordance with priority winter and they are standing up to the increased capacity by targeting the women who are most likely to have an that is coming towards them. occurrence of breast cancer. High-risk women will not When people receive an appointment to attend, I have open appointments; they will be called immediately. urge them to go. “Do not attends” are so frustrating. We will then screen positive women in the pathway, Those appointments could be taken by a woman who— followed by screening results that have not been processed, although she would not want a diagnosis—might get routine open episodes, those who have previously been into the stream quicker. invited but not screened, and the delays. It is important that we prioritise, so that we target the women we are Jim Shannon: I suspect that on some occasions, ladies most worried about. are not attending because of the fear of catching covid-19 at the hospital. I have spoken to some ladies back home I am aware that this year, the national breast screening and that was one of their concerns. How can we address programme could not maintain the service that it normally that? provides. In March, as the NHS responded to one of the biggest challenges that has faced our healthcare Jo Churchill: Essentially, by constantly reassuring system in a generation, many local providers made the them that the reason why we can do elective operations, decision to pause appointments so that arrangements have out-patient clinics open and carry on doing some could be put in place to protect staff and patients from of the business as usual is because heroic efforts have covid-19. We were unaware at that point what we were been made to make sure that there are safe places. I pay dealing with. Staff and facilities were redeployed to tribute to Dame Cally Palmer, who has made sure that tackle the outbreak of the pandemic, but as soon as it rapid diagnostic centres have been stood up to ensure was possible to do so, it was made an absolute priority that patients can access care safely. We had 17 at the that they were brought back in to do the job that we start of the pandemic, and we now have 45. The cancer need them to do. alliances have worked extremely hard in all our regions. I am sure that there is not a single Member in this There is no one silver bullet, but it is important that we Chamber, or indeed the House, who does not pay do what we can for patients. tribute to the hard work of all NHS staff. Cancer staff If people have any concerns or notice any abnormal and their teams have done a particularly incredible job changes in their breasts, they should contact their GP. I of making sure that people across the cancer family pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for West have received treatment. Earlier today, I talked to a Bromwich East, and I am pleased that her mum is now young man about the treatment he has had, and I talked in good health. CoppaFeel! is a great charity and its to a young woman who experienced chimeric antigen website shows how to do a good check. Breast Cancer receptor T-cell treatment earlier this year.The redeployment Awareness Month still went on—I did wear it pink— of staff left a shortfall in the breast screening programme, although it did not quite have the same profile as usual. and screening appointments for many women have been It is every woman’s responsibility to make sure that they delayed. I know that that wait, and the anxiety it drives, check their breasts monthly. If they see anything unusual is incredibly difficult. For those who are looking for that they are concerned about, such as puckering or reassurance from their routine screen, or who are waiting discharge from the nipple, GPs are open and there to to receive an all-clear or an early warning that something help women. is wrong, this is undoubtedly a challenging time. However, One thing that can help is to make sure that people I want to be absolutely clear that no woman has been go, but we are here to talk predominantly about screening left behind, and no woman ever will be. It is a priority to services. Cancer diagnostics and treatments are back on ensure that services are there. Improvements are being track. The latest official data for October 2020 suggests driven by the heroic efforts of staff, who have been that GP referrals are back to almost 85% of pre-pandemic working longer days and over weekends. They have levels, compared with August 2019. I appreciate that gone above and beyond to schedule as many appointments that leaves a lag, but we are heading in the right direction. as possible to help to drive down the backlog that was Urgent referrals were 156% higher in October than in created earlier this year. April, which is when they were most affected. That The first priority is to screen women aged 53 who shows that we are not only getting there, but beginning have not yet had their first screening appointment; to go beyond. Nearly 88% of cancer patients saw a those who have passed their 71st birthday and have not specialist within two weeks following their referral, and yet received their final breast screen; those at very high nearly 96% of patients received their treatment within risk of breast cancer, as I said; and those who have been 31 days of a decision to treat. In October, 83.5% of identified for further treatment. I am pleased to say that breast cancer patients received their first treatment within the tremendous efforts of screening staff—the nurses, 62 days, and breast cancer treatment activity was at the radiographers and the whole team—are succeeding 101% of last year’s levels. However, these figures do not and the backlog is steadily reducing. The number of hide the fact that there is a backlog and we have to work women waiting for screening, having received an invitation as hard as we can to address that. The “Help Us Help prior to the first wave, decreased by 98% between 1 June You” campaign, launched in October, is a key part of and 4 November. this and reinforces that message of seeking help. We will 179WH Breast Cancer Screening16 DECEMBER 2020 Breast Cancer Screening 180WH

[Jo Churchill] sufficient capacity to meet demand through maximising the use of available capacity in both symptomatic and closely monitor the effect of covid restrictions on referral screening pathways, which both feed into the same rates to ensure that the number of people coming funnel, optimising the use of the available independent forward with symptoms remains high, because it is sector capacity, enabling the restoration of other services, about confidence. Some pathways are more problematic and protecting service recovery during winter. than others, but the important thing is to make sure This is an excellent plan, which will work towards the that we get as many people as possible through the long-term plan ambitions for cancer services to continue pathway. during the pandemic. I am fully committed to seeing it I turn to the theme of breast screening for younger through and working with Dame Cally Palmer and all women. As the hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen the others to ensure that we can get to a better place. I Thompson) has said, this has been found not to be recognise that, as the hon. Member for Westmorland evidenced-based. There is a risk in referring women for and Lonsdale said, there have been some remarkable unnecessary tests, in over-treatment, and in operating changes to treatments with radiography and other on women who have diseases that mean that that is treatments in cancer. We must take those silver linings likely to cause harm. Women with a very high risk of where we can. breast cancer, such as those with a family history, may I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for High well be offered screening earlier and more frequently. Peak for coming to me to say that High Peak was Sometimes, in life, we just have to ask a question, and I special due to its geography, and he did not want the recently asked a breast cancer specialist about this. My women he serves in his constituency to be disadvantaged hon. Friends the Members for Chatham and Aylesford in any way by a loss of service. I understand that the (Tracey Crouch) and for Norwich North (Chloe Smith), decision to put breast screening services into static and the former Members for Dewsbury and for Eddisbury, positions was taken to maximise capacity. I was quite all of whom are in the younger age group, are going amazed that, pre pandemic, 70% to 80% of screening through treatment—I think one of them is post happened in mobile units. They are particularly helpful treatment—and I was their age when I was diagnosed. in dispersed rural areas, but with some of the challenges Just because something looks right, it does not necessarily of providing covid-secure spaces—some of those units mean that it is, and we have to act on the evidence. That did not even have running water—a decision was made is where we are at the moment for young women. to bring them back to a static site. The static units can We published the people plan in July, and I recognise, stay open longer and at the weekend, making about as Sir Mike Richards did, that the screening workforce 1,000 more appointments possible in a three-month is a challenge and it is important that we drive more period, so a lot more women can be seen. individuals into the areas of radiography, mammography, Although I take on board the point about travel, I am pathology, nursing and cancer specialist nursing. The asking women to bear with us—to work with us. These spending review provided another £260 million to continue are temporary changes, but they are a vital measure in to grow the workforce and support those commitments, the recovery of breast cancer screening services, allowing which were so important in the NHS long-term plan. more women to be seen, particularly those who may Health Education England has also provided £5 million have missed an appointment this year. I know that to support training and development programmes through longer travel times are difficult. I know that those the National Breast Imaging Academy, which aims to beautiful hills that my hon. Friend’s constituency is improve breast screening recruitment targets and early blessed with do not have particularly good bus services diagnosis.Ithasalreadymadesignificantprogress,launching either. This is not always an easy proposition, but it was the mammography level 4 apprenticeship; recruiting the decided that, for now at least, optimising the service to first of the NBIA radiology fellows, who will benefit see as many people as possible should take priority over from specialist training in breast radiology; and developing optimising a mobile service. e-learning for health programmes on the breast. When my hon. Friend came and met me, I could not To improve screening uptake, we need to work with give him any assurance, and he has pressed me again cancer alliances, primary care networks and the regional today. I assure him that this is a short-term measure. teams to promote the uptake of breast screening and to The increase of appointment availability will assist us in get to as many people as possible. As I said, the open in being able to resume mobile screening for High Peak, appointments systems is something that we are looking safety permitting, by July 2021. I have been reassured at, and we hope that the result will be that we get more by the Chesterfield Royal Hospital NHS trust that it is women through. The national cancer recovery plan was monitoring attendance, that this compromise is temporary, released this week. It is a joint effort from cancer while services recover, and that the usual screening charities, royal colleges, national teams and patient locations will be reinstated in the longer term to ease voices, and it was led by the national clinical director for access. I take this opportunity to stress that the screening cancer, Professor Peter Johnson. Its whole ethos is to services are safe to attend and a range of measures have outline the actions that need to be taken to restore been put in place to ensure that people go. demand to at least pre-pandemic levels by raising national I thank my hon. Friend and all other hon. Members public awareness through campaigns; ensuring that there who have participated today. I pay tribute to all the are efficient routes into the NHS for people who are at incredible staff across the country who are working so risk of cancer; improving referral management practice hard on the backlog and to make sure that cancer in primary and secondary care; and setting out immediate services stand up and catch up over the winter period. steps to reduce the number of people who wait more Hon. Members have my absolute commitment that we than 62 days from urgent referral, so that patients are are focused not only on the short-term recovery of seen as quickly and safely as possible. Finally, it ensures screening services, but on their long-term improvement 181WH Breast Cancer Screening 16 DECEMBER 2020 182WH too. Prevention, public health and early diagnosis continue Defence Manufacturing and Procurement: to be a huge priority for me. We will continue to bear Shropshire down on screening services, making sure we have the right kit in the right place and that we are delivering the different parts of the cancer pathway for men and [MRS MARIA MILLER in the Chair] women to have the best treatment.

3.54 pm 4 pm Robert Largan: It is a pleasure to sum up this debate. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I beg to move, It has been very constructive, with a lot of agreement. I That this House has considered defence manufacturing and appreciate the speeches from both the Opposition speakers, procurement in Shropshire. who made a lot of important points in a constructive I thank Mr Speaker for allowing me the opportunity manner, striking the right tone. I would like to highlight to bring this issue to the House’sattention. I am particularly the contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for pleased that the Minister of State is in his place, and West Bromwich East (Nicola Richards), who talked of look forward to his response to today’s debate. her family’spersonal experience.She is a fantastic champion Shropshire, and Telford and Wrekin, are fast becoming for her constituency. a crucial defence hub. Of course, there is a lot of I would also mention the hon. Member for Westmorland defence history in Shropshire, which many Members and Lonsdale (Tim Farron). We represent similar will know about, but on the manufacturing side Shropshire, constituencies; he represents the Lake district and I and Telford and Wrekin, are very much becoming a represent the Peak district. I am sure we could argue all geographical engineering cluster that feeds not only the day about which is better, but they face similar challenges. UK defence market, but the wider European defence I am a big admirer of his knowledge of the subject and manufacturing and procurement sector. I am proud the work he has done over the years. I must, of course, that Shropshire continues to play its part in UK defence mention the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) manufacturing, with existing contracts for Boxer and who is always an assiduous attendee in this place. He Warrior vehicles, and hopefully the Challenger 2 life made an important speech, with lots of very good extension programme. points. The defence sector, locally and nationally, continues I am grateful to the Minister for her comments. I have to grow under a Conservative Government. We should listened to her speak before about her personal experience. not ignore that material fact, for as you know, Mrs Miller, I know there is no one more committed to this issue. I it is only with a strong defence that any country can am reassured that we have such a diligent and committed have a strong peace.Defence manufacturing is an important Minister working for us on this subject. I am pleased part of the UK’s strong defence, and I am pleased that with the news that the breast cancer screening service on 19 November, the Prime Minister committed the mobile unit will be reinstated to High Peak. I hope the UK to increasing its defence budget—the largest boost Minister understands that I will be holding her feet to in the nation’s defence for the past 30 years, and indeed the fire, and making certain that the date is brought the biggest increase post world war two—investing an forward to be as soon as possible, so that we can get the extra £24 billion in our national security and sustaining mobile unit back to New Mills, Chapel-en-le-Frith, and creating thousands of jobs across the UK, including Buxton and the rest of the High Peak. in Shropshire. It is the biggest investment in the nation’s Question put and agreed to. defence since the end of the cold war, which is fantastic news for the nation as a whole, and specifically for my Resolved, constituents in The Wrekin. That this House has considered breast cancer screening. The Minister will know that BAE Systems employs 300 people in Telford, and spends more than £6 million 3.56 pm in the midlands supply chain and in the region as a Sitting suspended. whole, based at Hadley Castle Works. I am grateful that he took the time to visit my constituency some months ago and meet with many of these dedicated engineers, as well as those who manage the business. Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land is a very welcome joint venture between Rheinmetall and BAE Systems, designing, manufacturing and maintaining combat vehicles at Hadley Castle Works, with Rheinmetall owning a 55% stake in the joint venture and BAE Systems owning 45%. That joint venture will sustain a skilled workforce of about 450 employees across the UK, including those engineers based at RBSL in Telford. General Dynamics Land Systems—Force Protection Europe’smanufacturing spares facility is also based in my constituency. Then, of course, there is GKN, a manufacturer of off-highway wheels also based at Hadley Castle Works. GKN has had some challenges in recent years, but I hope that, whether it is under the current ownership of GKN or a future, different ownership, that site and the skill set there will be retained, not only for Shropshire 183WH Defence Manufacturing and 16 DECEMBER 2020 Defence Manufacturing and 184WH Procurement: Shropshire Procurement: Shropshire [Mark Pritchard] tick in job losses in the constituency, and it would be great to have new job announcements to fight those but for the UK defence sector as a whole. It is important unemployment figures. that GKN is supported, too. We also have Lockheed Lockheed Martin is in charge of Warrior, the fighting Martin, currently delivering the Warrior capability vehicle capability and sustainment programme. Locally, sustainment programme—the demonstration contract, we are seeing more and more people in our universities, that is—and that is welcome too. Babcock International, including Wolverhampton and the new university campus the defence engineering business, has a site in Donnington, in Shrewsbury—not so much Harper Adams, because and in April Babcock was awarded a contract to that is mostly agritech—and more young people in the manufacture 10,000 ventilators to help to control the region being interested in defence manufacturing and a covid-19 pandemic. I pay tribute to all the workforce career in defence. Another fresh, good announcement there and to the wider MOD staff at all those facilities— would help a lot of those young people to make the whether civilian or non-civilian, uniform or non-uniform right career choice. —at MOD Donnington and RAF Cosford, as well as the private sector companies I have mentioned. The life extension programme is a UK MOD programme I want to put on the record my thanks to my hon. to deliver the next generation of heavy armoured Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel capability. It is important to put that the record, but I Kawczynski), who quite rightly is a champion of Caterpillar know the Minister knows that. The programme will Defence, based in Shrewsbury, which as the Minister deliver Challenger 3, a network-enabled digital main battle knows specialises in the design and development of tank that will reinvigorate the UK’s and Shropshire’s engine and drivetrain packages to meet the needs of design and engineering skills. That digital element is many of the tracked and wheeled military vehicles that critical and feeds into other Government streams of the MOD uses. Of course, there are myriad local supply thinking. As I am sure the British Army would say, it chains and small and medium-sized enterprises, and I will deliver a world-class capability, generating significant am delighted that the Government have committed to export opportunities and support for global Britain, getting more small businesses into defence supply chains. and the UK’s wider economic growth. The maintenance of Challenger 2 will be carried out by Babcock Defence We have had very welcome news about Boxer. It is Support Group, which supports my constituents. designed to transport troops to the frontline and was described as a “leader in its field” by the Secretary of The Minister kindly answered a question that I put to State for Defence, no less, and of course he is absolutely him at the last Defence questions. I will quote it back to right. Over the next 10 years, RBSL will build 260 Boxer him, which is always a novelty. He said: vehicles—almost half the British Army’s fleet, I hasten “The proposition is now being worked up prior to a decision to add—in Telford at the Hadley site. That contract, being taken on the investment case.”—[Official Report, 7 December worth £860 million, will create and sustain 200-plus 2020; Vol. 685, c. 557.] skilled jobs in the area, and probably more. RBSL I understand that we are in the midst of the timetable officially received its manufacturing subcontract just a where such decisions are being made. I am pretty sure few weeks ago. That was a very welcome pre-Christmas that this debate is being held after some of those important present, but the real Christmas present would be if the decisions, rather than before. Perhaps the timing of this Minister were to announce today that the life extension debate is purely coincidental, but I would proffer that it of Challenger 2 is going ahead, and that much of that is not. I hope the Minister is therefore in a position to programme will be required to be delivered in my enlighten the Chamber today on the progress of the life constituency. extension programme. Of course, we have the integrated review at the moment, As the Minister will be aware, RBSL won the contract and it is important that we have it to look at the whole for the Fuchs chemical, biological, radiological and piece, covering defence, foreign policy, diplomacy and nuclear reconnaissance vehicles and training simulator intelligence—the whole gamut of how Governments earlier this year. It will sustain the British Army’s fleet protect themselves and project their own values and of reconnaissance vehicles and the training simulator. interests around the world. Hybrid warfare, information The contract has been awarded. Again, Hadley is playing technology, the National Cyber Force, which is now its part, sustaining hundreds of jobs. That vehicle, with public, and unmanned aerial vehicles are all vital, but at its built-in detection equipment for chemical, biological, the end of the day there is still a requirement for hard radiological and nuclear threats, is absolutely critical. kit—not just boots on the ground, but metal on the ground too. I hope that that is metal in the form of I want to give the Minister plenty of time to respond. Challenger having its life extended and being delivered Of course, every Member of Parliament rightly defends in, of course, Shropshire. The Boxer vehicles will be and speaks out for their constituency, but it is a matter delivered in 2023, so the timeframe is quite short, but I of fact that the defence engineering skill set and the have absolutely no doubt that they will be delivered on geographical cluster of those skills—to use management time. speak—in Telford and Wrekin in Shropshire is there for everybody to see. It does not make sense, whatever The contract has been secured for RBSL’s main advocacy make take place for other parts of the country, upcoming programme—the mechanised infantry vehicle for this work to go elsewhere, only for companies to programme—and I understand from the research done struggle to recruit or relocate a workforce. by my office that the Challenger 2 life extension programme will support 60 local suppliers. Covid has had an impact, I put the case that if the Ministry of Defence wants to albeit at the moment not a huge impact, but every job move quickly on a programme that is vital for the UK lost in my constituency is a job loss too many. There armed forces and the British Army, which will be the have been job losses since March. Wehave seen an upward user, it makes sense to deliver it where the skills are, 185WH Defence Manufacturing and 16 DECEMBER 2020 Defence Manufacturing and 186WH Procurement: Shropshire Procurement: Shropshire where the workforce is committed and where there is a 135,000 trade receipts and 110,000 customer returns in history of dedication to Her Majesty’s armed forces, the last 12 months for millions of items in support of both in uniform and out of uniform. our armed forces worldwide—a truly exceptional performance. 4.12 pm My hon. Friend referred to the broader footprint. The Royal Air Force has a significant footprint through The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin): its stations and operations at RAF Shawbury and RAF I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for The Cosford. That includes training around 200 personnel a Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) for calling this debate. He is year in basic and advanced rotary wing flying as part of an assiduous constituency MP. He is one of those the UK Military Flying Training System at Shawbury people, to whom he referred, who will always advocate and the provision of world-class aeronautical engineering the cause of their constituency, but he is also one of my training to RAF and international students at RAF hon. Friends who serves on the Intelligence and Security Cosford. Committee. He had a previous role with the Organisation The school offers an extensive range of advanced for Security and Co-operation in Europe and therefore apprenticeships spanning mechanical, avionics, weapons knows the threats that we face, and the capabilities we and survival equipment disciplines, from which around need to meet those threats and deter them, both now 2,000 aircraft engineers graduate each year.This investment and into the future. in our people not only benefits defence, but sustains It is a huge boon to my hon. Friend that he knows jobs and supports the local and wider regional economies. about the threats and capabilities, and that so many This is a classic example of how defence—in this case deterrents to them can be produced in the heart of through its training school in Shropshire—provides vital Shropshire and in his constituency in particular, which skills to support our research and industrial base of the combines great companies with tremendous skills, and future. an enthusiasm for embracing and supporting our armed More broadly, in 2018-19 we spent some £583 million forces in all their endeavours. in the west midlands, sustaining around 4,300 jobs, and My hon. Friend referred to Boxer vehicles and the Shropshire plays a vital role. In addition to the good capabilities that they produce, which are just one good work being undertaken by Kuehne+Nagel and Team example. We look forward to bringing them into our Leidos at Donnington, Babcock Defence Support Group armoury and helping to export them around the world. provides vital maintenance, overhaul and engineering He touched on that, and we recognise it as a way we can support for our Warrior infantry fighting vehicles and help to drive forward the success of our sector in the other military vehicles at the Donnington site. future. We are currently the second biggest defence I would also highlight, as did my hon. Friend, the exporter in the world. We need to maintain that position work being undertaken by Rheinmetall BAE Systems to help ensure that we maintain research and development Land—RBSL—at Telford in support of the Challenger 2 in our country, so that we continue to get the capabilities life extension programme and congratulate it on the we need and to enhance those capabilities for the future. recent award of a contract of £860 million to manufacture My hon. Friend referred to the ventilator challenge more than 260 Boxer vehicles at its Telford facility, as and the work performed in his constituency. I recognise part of the £2.3 billion mechanised infantry vehicle the fantastic achievements of the whole of the defence programme, to deliver a state-of-the-art capability to supply chain in supporting our great NHS throughout equip the Army’s strike brigades. It is also under contract the pandemic. I highlight the work of everyone at the to modernise and support the British Army’s chemical, Defence Fulfilment Centre at Donnington in his biological, radiological and nuclear reconnaissance vehicles. constituency. I know that he knows it well. It has been My first industrial engagement as Minister for Defence the nerve centre and at the forefront of the logistics Procurement was a pre-lockdown visit to RBSL in effort to provide vital equipment in support of the March this year.I was very impressed by the professionalism Department of Health and Social Care, including the and dedication of the workforce in delivering for defence. supply of ventilators, to which he referred, and other I was especially delighted to meet RBSL apprentices, critical medical equipment to the frontline. who showed real enthusiasm for their work in supporting The figures are astounding. Over the past seven months our defence programmes. It is vital that we continue to to November, more than 3.8 million items were handled seek to empower future generations through science, by the defence supply chain, with the vast majority passing technology, engineering and mathematics to grow a through Donnington. That includes over 20,000 ventilators, dynamic, innovative economy. 70,000 pieces of equipment and over 3.7 million Our investment in the UK defence industry is allowing consumables. Those vital items have been moved and us to do just that. Within RBSL, in addition to the delivered across the length and breadth of the British excellent work of the STEM ambassador scheme, the Isles, from Belfast to Great Yarmouth, from Guernsey Boxer vehicle sub-contract award will allow the company to NHS National Services Scotland. This has been a to provide work and training opportunities to more truly great endeavour in the face of adversity.I commend than 60 apprentices over the next five years, and may those people in defence across Shropshire, the west also provide further opportunities throughout the supply midlands and beyond who have risen to that vital chain. RBSL’s £20 million investment in its Telford site challenge. will not only provide state-of-the-art manufacturing Donnington is just one of the valuable contributions facilities,but support the company’sapprenticeship schemes Shropshire makes to defence. In addition to providing a by delivering a high standard of training, enabling central role in our pandemic response, the team at apprentices to benefit from work-based learning and Donnington has continued, as has the rest of the defence paths to formal qualifications. Those schemes and other team, to do the day job, processing 1.5 million requests, similar initiatives will help to grow and sustain engineering 187WH Defence Manufacturing and 16 DECEMBER 2020 Defence Manufacturing and 188WH Procurement: Shropshire Procurement: Shropshire [Jeremy Quin] We can be positive about the future, underpinned by the huge boost to defence recently announced by the and manufacturing skills in Shropshire and across the Prime Minister. The four-year settlement to which my UK, ensuring that we can deliver for defence now and hon. Friend made reference amounts to an extra £24 billion in the future. —including at least £6.6 billion for R&D—and provides My hon. Friend referred to other companies, which us with the opportunity to modernise and compete are there in legion, be it Caterpillar or GKN, supporting effectively in the digitised battlefield and, above all, us directly or through the wider supply chain doing deter. As one of the biggest defence spenders in the vital work such as that on the F-35, for which we are the world, our investment already injects over £19 billion only tier 1 partner of our American allies. I also recognise into our industry every year right the way across the the work of small and medium-sized enterprises, who United Kingdom, securing thousands of jobs and growing play a vital role in the UK defence industrial base. We opportunities across the whole nation. The settlement want to harness their ingenuity and niche capabilities in will allow us to build on that and provide new opportunities providing and supporting battle-winning capabilities across the supply chain, helping the country to build for our armed forces. back better from the pandemic by supporting UK skills, In 2019, we published an SME action plan and, to jobs and industry. support that commitment, appointed SME champions It came as no surprise that, on the back of the Prime at senior level within our 19 strategic suppliers. We are Minister’sexcellent announcement of a multi-year spending targeting 25% of our procurement spend to be with review,my hon. Friend inquired about specific procurement SMEs by 2022. Weare making progress. SMEs accounted exercises that I know from his previous questions are at for over 19% of the MOD’s procurement spend in the front of his mind and are of interest more broadly 2018-19, representing some £3.9 billion, which was a in Shropshire. On his ask for an early Christmas present, significant increase on the previous year and the third I am afraid it will come as a disappointment—but year in a row in which the proportion of funds going to probably no surprise—that I cannot be drawn on those SMEs rose. specific issues at this time. However, I am aware of both SMEs working in Shropshire provide valuable support the capability enhancements and prosperity benefits to a varied range of defence activities. Air Covers Ltd is elucidated. I am grateful to him for giving us yet another manufacturing and supplying canopy covers for the opportunity to raise them in the House, and I look Typhoon combat aircraft fleet and Skylaunch Ltd is forward to being able to say more in due course. providing glider winches for our air cadets, among Defence is part of the fabric of the UK. Through our many others. Alongside our support to SMEs, we continue defence industries both big and small, the UK supports our internal programmes of transformation and reform, our armed forces with the equipment they need to get allowing us to work better with the defence industry to the job done, provide our security and keep us safe. I am deliver what defence needs now and in the future. That convinced that the Government’s funding commitment includes leading the cross-Government review of the to defence will secure the long-term future of our UK’s defence and security sectors, continued investment defence industry both in Shropshire and across all the to manage and enhance the resilience of our supply regions and all four nations of the UK. chains, and improving the pace and agility of our Question put and agreed to. acquisition processes. We are also taking the opportunity offered by our departure from the EU to develop defence and security procurement regulations tailored to better 4.24 pm meet the UK’s needs. Sitting suspended. 189WH 16 DECEMBER 2020 Winter Homelessness Support 190WH

Winter Homelessness Support Allow me to outline what support I believe should be considered if we are to end rough sleeping for good. 4.30 pm First, for those suffering from mental health and addiction issues the answer is clear. We need to offer greater social Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) care and specialist medical support alongside the safety (Con): I beg to move, of a bed. I am proud that Westminster City Council has That this House has considered support for the homeless more than 400 beds for rough sleepers on any given during the winter months. night. However, I have spoken in depth with the council It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and the charities involved, and it is now clear to me that Mrs Miller. I am grateful that I have been able to secure what is needed is sustained and long-term support, this debate to discuss support for the homeless as we attached to that bed—an addiction counsellor,psychiatric head into Christmas and the winter months. I am help and medical support for those who have suffered delighted that so many hon. Members are keen to take after years of sleeping rough. part in the debate and represent their constituents’ concerns. I hope that I speak for us all, no matter what The current pandemic has shown that when central our political affiliation, when I say that we want the and local government works together, much can be issues of rough sleeping and homelessness to be solved. achieved. During the first lockdown, the Everyone In We all aspire to the same end goal—to see homelessness strategy saw 90% of those on the street brought in. With assigned to the history books. integrated services available, many accepted the mental health and addiction help provided as part of the covid-19 I am extremely proud that one of the Government’s support. A bed is one thing, but without the support main priorities is to end rough sleeping by 2024. As services attached, it will not change much for those in hon. Members will be aware, the issues surrounding desperate need. rough sleeping and homelessness are acute in central London, and particularly in my constituency. We need I am therefore delighted that the Government clearly only step outside this building to witness the problems, understand the importance of tackling mental health and the scale of the challenge that we face. I receive and addiction. The extra help for rough sleepers with regular correspondence from businesses and residents dependency issues announced this week, including who are concerned for the welfare of rough sleepers, so £1.1 million to Westminster for addiction support, clearly today I want to focus my concern on the first stages of shows that Ministers now understand the importance supporting those who sleep rough on the streets into a of tackling the causes—why so many find themselves bed and the right support environment. Other colleagues on the street. If we are to end rough sleeping, however, may want to discuss later stages of the journey, such as that funding must continue. Tackling the causes of moving individuals into settled accommodation, but for rough sleeping takes long-term, sustainable funding. me and my constituents the major concern is to support Secondly, if the Government are to achieve their goal people off the streets in the first place. of ending rough sleeping, they must also repeal the It is important that we understand the different cohorts Vagrancy Act. Much has been spoken about repealing of rough sleepers on the streets. Today I am speaking that out-of-date legislation, but it is now time for action. specifically about Westminster, which has more rough The Vagrancy Act, passed in 1824, is simply not fit for sleepers than any borough in the country. The latest purpose. It fails to address the acute 21st-century problems overnight count in Westminster took place in November. that public sector agencies and charities work tirelessly It provided a snapshot of the night-time street population. to deal with among the street population. On count night, Westminster found 242 people sleeping rough. Of those, just under half were UK or Irish Rather than seek to help those on the street, the nationals.The rest represented a wide range of nationalities, Vagrancy Act criminalises them. Sadly, in some desperate but substantially the remainder were eastern European. cases, the Vagrancy Act is the last resort to take people Beyond nationality there are many underlying causes off the street and into the support that they need, albeit for people finding themselves on the street. that requires police intervention. In place of the Act, I would like to see legislation that allows for assertive From my previous experience of being responsible outreach that puts protection, not criminality, at its for rough sleeping policy in Westminster, and my long heart. So many on the street present with complex association with charities such as St Mungo’s and The needs and do not have the mental health capacity to Passage, there are generally three main cohorts of rough make the decision, for their own wellbeing, to accept sleepers in Westminster. First, there are those suffering the help on offer. with acute mental health or addiction issues. They are often mistrustful of the support that is offered, having Does the woman sleeping in an underpass not far been let down by society throughout their life, and from here, with maggots growing out of her leg but refuse to engage with outreach teams. The second cohort consistently refusing help to come inside, really have the is economic migrants, who may choose to sleep outside mental capacity? Has the time come to overhaul the or in a tent in order to save their earnings, which they mental health threshold for those on the street, to allow send back to their families. They often have no recourse outreach workers to make the decision on their behalf? to public funds, owing to their nationality, so help from The alternative is the status quo, which allows people to local authorities eludes them anyway. The third cohort remain on the street, failing to address their serious is those who are suffering at the hands of gangmasters mental health problems. I am not a great believer in as modern-day slaves. Some will have been brought here state intervention, but were my son or daughter on the against their will to beg, to be forced into prostitution street with serious addiction or mental health problems, or to commit crime. Many are brought here under false I would want to know that society has the levers available pretences with promises of accommodation, only for to make the decision for them, for their own wellbeing, that not to materialise. and possibly to save their life. 191WH Winter Homelessness Support16 DECEMBER 2020 Winter Homelessness Support 192WH

Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): I recall sitting to say.Like her,I see what is happening around Westminster. outside Charing Cross station watching a guy drink I came in via the Embankment this morning and it is water from a puddle like a dog, and up to several impossible to miss the tents under Hungerford bridge, thousand people passed him before anyone did anything where a growing number of people seem to be making about it. Likewise, kids in the summer have a bit of a their homes. It shames all of us that in this city so many party and take loads of drugs, but the weather changes are sleeping rough in that way. and they are addicted. They need to be got off the The one policy that could deal with that effectively is streets before what started as a party ends as a nightmare. a substantial programme of investment in social housing. Does my hon. Friend agree? I recognise that Ministers are sincere in wanting to end the scourge of rough sleeping, and I acknowledge the Nickie Aiken: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. commitment that the Government have made. In reality, As I want to ensure that everyone gets a chance to we are not going to end rough sleeping without a speak in this debate, I do not have time to go into the substantial programme of new social house building. I detail that discussion of the other issues faced by economic see no sign of that happening. Without it, we are not migrants and modern-day slaves who find themselves going to end rough sleeping. on the street would deserve, but I will turn to them I particularly want to pay tribute to the network of briefly. Their issues are as complex as those of people church-based homelessness night shelters in London dealing with health and addiction issues, especially as that operate in winter. At least one has been set up in agencies are often hampered in the support that they every London borough. Seven or 14 churches take it in can offer because foreign nationals may not have access turns to gather volunteers to provide a hot meal, a bed to public funds. and some breakfast to rough sleepers, one night per Tohelp those cohorts requires much greater co-ordination week. In past years, for hundreds of people it has been across government, between the Home Office, the Ministry the only alternative to sleeping rough. I pay tribute to of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Housing Justice, which supports their work and liaises local authorities. In the case of modern-day slaves, between them and the Mayor of London. those people desperately need our support, but the I welcome the imaginative support that the Minister’s difficulty in law is how to criminalise their gangmasters Department, the Ministry of Housing, Communities without criminalising those who have been trafficked and Local Government, has been providing to that on to our streets. What support or help should we offer network lately. This year the network are working on them? Would they like to return home? Should we help alternative covid-safe provision. Unavoidably, that means them return home? Such matters can only be truly less capacity. I think the Department has provided addressed by a deeper and honest conversation across about £2 million to support their work, to enable them Government, local authorities and the charity sector. to operate in a covid-safe way.I commend the Department For too long the elephant in the room has been the and the night shelters. Last February, St Paul’s Cathedral issue of the “no recourse to public funds” category and hosted a service to celebrate their work and to thank the whether to suspend it—a difficult decision, I recognise, hundreds of volunteers who keep them going. Everybody but one that does need addressing. As I have highlighted, there will have agreed with the Bishop of Edmonton, the issues around rough sleeping are complex and there the chair of Housing Justice, who was the preacher, that are no easy answers. If we are to achieve the Government’s volunteers should not have to do that work. laudable aim to end rough sleeping, greater support for I want to refer to a point that the hon. Member for health and addiction issues, and a reassessment of both Cities of London and Westminster highlighted in her the Vagrancy Act and the no recourse to public funds opening speech about people with leave to remain in the rules are all required. UK but no recourse to public funds.The Local Government I recognise and welcome the increased focus and Association brief for this debate highlights the large funding that the Government have provided to local number seen by councils who, their work stopped because authorities to support rough sleeping this year. The of the pandemic, are unable to claim benefits because of Government are clearly determined to end rough sleeping the no recourse to public funds condition, and who face and I look forward to providing support to Ministers to homelessness and destitution. Expectations on councils achieve our shared goal. I look forward to the contributions to support people with NRPF have changed during the of Members and the Minister’s response. pandemic. Councils are obliged in law to support families and adults with care and support needs, but not others. Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): I remind all right Local welfare funds, provided through councils, are not hon. and hon. Members to respect the one-way system, available to those with NRPF. to sanitise microphones using the cleaning materials, The Minister’s Department rightly made it clear at and to dispose of the materials in the bin. I think we the outset that councils should provide shelter for people have enough room so that people can sit in the horseshoe. sleeping rough, even if those people had no recourse to I suggest a four-minute time limit, so that everybody public funds. However, the legal unclarity has made can come in. I will call the wind-ups just before 10 past 5, matters harder, and sadly the enlightenment of the if that is all right. I call Stephen Timms. Minister’s Department has not been emulated by the Home Office. Government guidance has not been updated on what assistance can be accessed by people with no 4.41 pm recourse to public funds. So, will the Minister press her Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Thank you, colleagues in the Home Office to do what the Women Mrs Miller. I congratulate the hon. Member for Cities and Equalities Committee—a Committee chaired by a of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) on securing former Home Office Minister, the right hon. Member the debate, and I agree with a great deal of what she had for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes)— 193WH Winter Homelessness Support16 DECEMBER 2020 Winter Homelessness Support 194WH recommended unanimously in its report published A year ago, I was elected on a promise to end rough yesterday, and suspend the no recourse to public funds sleeping in Hastings and Rye by the end of this Parliament, restriction for the duration of the pandemic? and to prevent homelessness—a promise to local residents that I intend to keep. I am pleased that although we 4.46 pm have been battered and bashed by covid-19, the Government have not lost sight of their desire to ensure that we Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): It is an honour support the most vulnerable and eradicate rough sleeping to serve under your chairmanship,Mrs Miller.I congratulate once and for all. The determination to live up to that my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and promise is clear in the actions that have been taken Westminster (Nickie Aiken) on securing the debate. She throughout the covid-19 pandemic to help and support actually knows what she is talking about in this regard, rough sleepers and the homeless. having grappled with the centre of gravity for street homelessness in our national life. There was the initial funding of £3.2 million given to local authorities in March for the Everyone In campaign What is street homelessness? Tome, street homelessness to help get rough sleepers off the streets as coronavirus has almost nothing to do with housing. In my experience—I spread. To ensure that rough sleepers do not return to have got some; I reckon that I have spent four and a half the streets after the pandemic, the Government launched to five months of my life living on the streets of various the Next Steps accommodation programme,which provides cities, here and in the United States—street homelessness funding of more than £250 million to local authorities is actually a health issue. We are only ever going to deal and their partners in 2020-21 for short and medium-term with the problem if the Government understand that, accommodation solutions, and also more than £150 million and if the fabulous Minister present today were to to 276 schemes for longer-term accommodation solutions. spend most of her time in the Department of Health. This winter the Government have announced masses Street homelessness is about mental health or about of funding and a welcome package to protect rough addiction, and very often a combination of the two. I sleepers over the winter months. All told, over this know that the media and lots of us in all parties in the pandemic and into the winter, the Government have House like to present homelessness as the fault of the allocated more than £700 million in ring-fenced funding evil Government of x hue or y hue, and of the evil to support rough sleepers and those at risk of rough bedroom tax, and benefit cuts, or whatever else. In my sleeping. In Hastings we have an acute issue with rough experience, there are people on the streets who would fit sleeping. The local authority has one of the highest into that category, and I am in no doubt that there are rates of rough sleeping in our region, having increased tens of thousands of homeless people in the so-called from three in 2010 to 48 people sleeping on the streets in sofa-surfing arena, but of the street homeless people, 2018. That increase is deeply concerning, but it is not only a tiny number fit in that category. Everybody else is just the raw numbers that alarm me; it is also the way in drug-addicted or mentally ill. which we approach the issue. Actually, I would add a new thing that had not The best thing we can do is to offer rough sleepers occurred to me until the Minister mentioned state and those registered as homeless Housing First with full intervention just now, because there is another thing wraparound support. Too often, I have heard of cases that the street homeless have in common—including of rough sleepers being taken off the streets and put the lady with maggots, who I have not met yet but will into temporary,insecure and poor quality accommodation seek out—and that is that they no longer have family or and simply left there. I want to see a proper series of friends who are interested in them. interventions that provide more secure quality I am all for the small state, but I actually agree with accommodation, access to health services to deal with the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) any addictions, health concerns or mental illness, and and my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London also support with skills training and employability advice and Westminster that the state has got to take a bigger to help sustain tenancies and get rough sleepers off the role in the lives of this really relatively small number of cold, wintry streets and back on their feet, standing tall people—possibly 4,000, 5,000 or 6,000 people nationally, with a future to look on with hope and pride. but obviously that figure twirls around. I think we need Too often we have sought quick wins in short-term to ensure that. solutions. We need to make sure that we have a long-term The other observation that I will make—again I agree plan with the funding. I am pleased with the support with the right hon. Member for East Ham—is that and the emphasis that the Government have put on ultimately, of course, lack of housing is going to impact supporting local authorities and organisations to help the people at the very, very bottom, and we need to sort the most vulnerable, but, going forward, we need a that out; but we should also be mindful that we are more holistic approach to tackling the underlying causes increasing our population, and we still are under this of rough sleeping to really give these people a fresh Government, to the tune of 1 million people every three start. years.

4.48 pm 4.52 pm Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con): I thank Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab): It is a pleasure to my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. I thank the Westminster (Nickie Aiken) for securing today’s debate. hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster I absolutely agree with everything that she and the right (Nickie Aiken) for securing this important debate. hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) said In January, I delivered my maiden speech on about social housing need. Investment in social housing homelessness, and it seems appropriate to return to the is absolutely imperative. subject for what is likely to be my final contribution of 195WH Winter Homelessness Support16 DECEMBER 2020 Winter Homelessness Support 196WH

[Mick Whitley] need to end the disastrous right to buy programme, which for decades has prevented local authorities from 2020. Much has changed since then. The country has building much-needed council houses. I believe that found itself under attack from an invisible and previously council house building on a scale similar to that of the unknown enemy. While the public were urged to stay at post-war years is the best way to end the scourge of home, local authorities and third sector organisations homelessness and the shameful shortage of decent homes. leapt into action to ensure that no one was left on the Our ambition should match the needs of our country. streets. Thanks to their tireless efforts, countless lives Our reward will be more stable and prosperous communities, were saved, but the Government failed to capitalise on homes to be proud of and an end to the tragedy of that success. Decisive action was needed to end the human beings being forced to live their lives on the scourge of homelessness forever. Instead, the funding streets and taking shelter beneath cardboard boxes. dried up and people were sent back on to the streets once again. 4.56 pm As we draw closer to the longest night of the year with the temperatures set to plummet, we find ourselves Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab): once again debating support for homeless people. The It is a pleasure to join this debate with you in the Chair, scale of the crisis was demonstrated by the recent news Mrs Miller. As co-chair of the all-party parliamentary that 778 homeless people died in 2019. That was a group on ending homelessness, I wholeheartedly 7% increase on the year before and the highest number congratulate the hon. Member for Cities of London since the Office for National Statistics began to monitor and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) on securing this debate. cases in 2013. A year ago, the Government were elected with a Every single one of those deaths is a tragedy, and manifesto commitment to end rough sleeping in this those of us who have the great privilege of serving here Parliament. That is a welcome and ambitious agenda. must ensure that that awful death toll is never repeated. This year, they could go some way to meeting that Local authorities must be given the resources that they target through Everyone In, which is estimated to have need to provide rough sleepers with safe, self-contained helped 30,000 people. accommodation this winter. I am deeply concerned by We should put on the record our gratitude to charities the Government’s decision to reopen communal night such as St Mungo’s, which operates in Southwark, and shelters over the Christmas period, a decision that has councils such as the London borough of Southwark for been criticised by Crisis and more than 16 other housing all the support they have given in this difficult period. and health charities. Southwark has helped 799 people, and at one point was Homeless people are far more likely to suffer from providing help to more than one third of all those underlying health conditions that make them more accommodated in the entire capital city. vulnerable to covid-19. They should not be forced to That 30,000 figure follows the Government claim in choose between spending a night freezing on the streets January that there were only 5,000 rough sleepers in the or jeopardising their health in communal accommodation. country. My first question to the Minister is: when will We also need to take steps to prevent people driven into the Government implement a new, robust measurement, poverty by the combined threat of deprivation and rather than that finger-in-the-air approach? During covid from becoming yet more involuntary recruits to Everyone In, Combined Homelessness and Information the ranks of the homeless this winter and every winter Network stats showed that there were still 3,500 people to come. sleeping on the streets from July, so has the Minister I welcome the Government’s decision to extend the done an assessment of why that was happening that can ban on evictions until 11 January, but with cases rising be shared with the House? across the country and joblessness soaring, it is imperative One of the reasons that has been identified today is that the ban is extended until we have decisively won the no recourse to public funds. The Government simply war on covid. I also urge the Government to listen to are not funding everyone. Ten per cent. of those helped leading housing charities and remove the benefit cap, in the London borough of Southwark had no recourse end the freeze on local housing allowance and strengthen to public funds. Is that figure the same nationally, financial support for those at risk of homelessness. Minister? Will the Government fix the misnomer of Support must be made available for everyone who Everyone In and actually fund everyone? Will the Minister needs it, regardless of nationality or immigration status. acknowledge that it is cheaper to cancel the no recourse That means ending once and for all the punitive and to public funds restrictions than to require councils, discriminatory policy of no recourse to public funds. using public money, to spend more on emergency The housing crisis must be tackled head on. For far accommodation? too long, successive Governments have failed to address We should recognise that Everyone In has saved lives. the pressing need to build secure and affordable housing. One study published in The Lancet suggested that There are more than 1.2 million people on the waiting 266 deaths, more than 21,000 infections and more than list for social housing, but a mere 5,000 new homes were 1,000 hospital admissions had been avoided, so it has built last year. That has left millions of people in saved lives and saved the NHS from being overwhelmed. precarious housing situations, paying sky-high rents That safety-first approach needs to continue. that spiral ever upwards while wages spiral down. Southwark is using the Robes Project—a fantastic Today, almost half of private renters are just one pay organisation—to provide self-contained rooms this winter, cheque away from homelessness. That has to change. because communal shelters cannot operate due to the More than ever, we need an ambitious house building risk of covid. Will the Government also commit to programme that delivers the high-quality, affordable funding safe accommodation for everyone this winter? I housing stock that our country desperately needs. We ask that because their cold weather fund, which has 197WH Winter Homelessness Support16 DECEMBER 2020 Winter Homelessness Support 198WH already been announced, is £3 million lower this year Birmingham is a generous city, and The Birmingham than it was last year, despite the covid risks, the higher Mail’s #BrumWish campaign has raised money from costs and the growing risk of not just becoming homeless its readers for more than 2,000 presents for children but being homeless. living in homeless accommodation this Christmas.However, We have just heard about the ONS figures, which we cannot solve homelessness with donations: we need were published on Monday, that show that there is a action to address the lack of affordable housing. Private greater risk of dying on our streets. It was 778 last rents in Birmingham are already too high, and with the year—up 7% on the previous year. An extra person economic uncertainty that lies ahead, there will be a every week dies on our streets. That is the highest ever further increase in homelessness unless some practical figure. It rose last year and is very likely to jump again measures to address exorbitant rents are introduced. in 2021 if the Government do not act now. It would be Adam Holloway: I totally get the hon. Gentleman’s interesting to hear from the Minister what specific point about 60,000 people on waiting lists, emergency measures are being adopted to tackle the problem of accommodation and everything else, but this is what we people dying on our streets. always do. We are always conflating the homelessness of That is a legitimate question. Look at the situation the sorts of people the hon. Gentleman is talking about we face: not just covid, but the rise in unemployment, with the street homeless, who are sometimes used as a the return of evictions and the continued lack of support thing to batter Government with. I think there is a very for people facing hostile environment policies. To put big difference between the entrenched street homeless some numbers on that, nearly 67,000 people approached and the sorts of people that the hon. Gentleman is English local authorities for homelessness assistance describing. They are different, and we will not help the between April and June this year. That figure is likely to street homeless or our cohorts unless we accept that rise further in the next statistics. The Government need there is a difference between the two groups. to recognise the scale of the problem, and fully resource councils to respond to and manage the volume they are Steve McCabe: I guess my point is that we should be seeing. A failure to act will mean not just a missed helping both. I would say it is as simple as that: I do not manifesto target, but that councils and charities are really want to divide and separate these people, but to overwhelmed, that covid infections will rise, and that help both groups. there will be more deaths on our streets. That will be the We also need strengthened arrangements to prevent brutal reality if the Government fail to act. developers wriggling out of obligations to provide affordable housing by fiddling figures to disguise their real profit margins at the expense of homeless people. That is what 5 pm is happening in my city, and I will wager that it is happening up and down the country. As the Minister Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): It is a will know, too many people in Birmingham and elsewhere pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mrs Miller, and I are placed in expensive and dodgy exempt accommodation, congratulate the hon. Member for Cities of London draining the public purse of money that could be put to and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) on securing this debate. much better use in tackling homelessness on both of I cannot think of many things worse than being these fronts. We should be dealing with the people on homeless. Maybe it is not surprising that homeless the streets, but if a child is sharing a bed with their three people are three and a half times more likely to commit sisters and mother in a bed-and-breakfast house in suicide than the general population. The suicide rate Birmingham, they do not have much of a future, either. among rough sleepers is estimated to have increased by 30% in just 12 months, and Birmingham has recorded 5.5 pm 25 homeless deaths over a 12-month period—not all of David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): It is a pleasure them suicides, but that is the second highest rate in the to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. I, too, country. More people will almost certainly perish on congratulate the hon. Member for Cities of London our streets this winter. In Birmingham, over 3,500 house- and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) on securing this very holds are homeless, living in temporary accommodation, important debate. which includes bed and breakfasts and some pretty The covid-19 pandemic has hugely impacted so much grim hotels. Some 16,000 households are on the of our lives. Many people are now facing redundancy Birmingham housing register. and financial hardship. This public health crisis proves It is not a lack of will that causes these problems. We now more than ever that ending homelessness and saw during the Everyone In programme what can be rough sleeping should be a priority. Obviously, housing achieved, and I really admire the energy and determination and homelessness is a devolved topic, but by virtue of of Birmingham Councillor Sharon Thompson in trying our third party obligations here, we are compelled to to make a difference. However, we need a more joined-up take part in the debates. This has been an interesting response, and we need to agree that homelessness is as debate, and I want to offer just a few thoughts on what much of an evil as hunger or disease. I do not wish to happens in Scotland—and not by any means to say that strike a discordant note in this debate, but I was slightly we are doing this better,because I think that homelessness surprised by the emphasis that the hon. Members for is a blight on all of us. I do not think any of us would Cities of London and Westminster and for Gravesham disagree that one person homeless is one too many. But (Adam Holloway) placed on people’s social problems, certainly in Scotland, the SNP has ensured that Scots at a time when so many prominent voices in the Tory have some of the strongest homelessness rights in the party have been promoting Housing First as a policy. I world. They mean that anyone who is experiencing or would be really interested to hear from the Minister even at risk of homelessness is entitled to receive help whether there is a view on that. from the local authority, including accommodation. 199WH Winter Homelessness Support16 DECEMBER 2020 Winter Homelessness Support 200WH

[David Linden] brings us to the crux of the issue, because until Scotland is an independent country, it is an inescapable reality The SNP is clear on the fact that a settled home is that— vital in supporting people to have a happy and healthy life. That is why the Scottish Government are investing Neil Coyle: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is £32.5 million, which is more than half their £50-million coming on to this, but perhaps he could outline what Ending Homelessness Together fund, to support local the SNP Government are doing to tackle drug deaths in authorities to prioritise settled accommodation for all. Scotland, given the alarming figures that we have seen In addition to more investment, this year the for Scotland—they are higher than average—and given Scottish Government, along with the Convention of the prevalence of such deaths in the homeless community. Scottish Local Authorities, published an updated “Ending Homelessness Together” action plan, and one of the David Linden: The hon. Member is absolutely right. I most significant recommendations in the action plan is am a Glasgow MP and the drug death figures in Scotland the phasing out of night shelters in Scotland. Night are totally and utterly unacceptable. More action is shelters will be replaced with rehousing welcome centres needed on that and I will not hide from that fact. If the for people who would otherwise be sleeping rough this UK Government are unwilling to take action on the winter.The centres will provide emergency accommodation, Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, they should devolve those and people using the centres will be offered targeted powers to the Scottish Parliament—that would be very support, including for wellbeing, health and social care helpful. issues, legal rights, employment and welfare. I think Politicians not just in Scotland, but right across the that that will be life changing for people experiencing UK, have got to have a very difficult conversation. It is homelessness. a brave thing for politicians to stand up and say, “Perhaps The Scottish Government have also announced a look at moving to safe consumption rooms, as they have £100-million package of further measures to alleviate done in many parts of the world.” If we want to tackle the social harms caused by the covid-19 pandemic. That the drugs issue, it should be above party politics. UK includes £5 million to help those at risk of homelessness Government Ministers are going to have to come to the to find a settled home. As part of the £100 million, very difficult decision about something like what we see Scotland’s winter plan for social protection includes in Portugal, Australia and Germany. The hon. Member £15 million of flexible funding for local authorities for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle) is entering covid-19 protection level 4, which Glasgow has right to put that on the record. The drugs death issue has just been in. That can be used to pay for food and been forgotten about during this public health crisis. essentials. The covid-19 pandemic has proven to us all just how It is clear that UK Home Office policies are causing utterly tragic this Government have been at handling a people to face destitution and homelessness over the crisis. With the possibility of a no-deal Brexit on the winter months. My party and I remain very concerned horizon, I dread to think how much worse it could get that the Home Office plans to deport non-UK nationals for the poorest people in our society. who are sleeping rough. That is clearly a very inhumane and backward policy. I am afraid that those actions will undermine the UK Government’s commitment to end 5.10 pm rough sleeping in England, alongside undermining the Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): It is a vital work of the devolved Administrations to help pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mrs Miller. I those most vulnerable during the pandemic. commend the hon. Member for Cities of London and The issue of no recourse to public funds has come up Westminster (Nickie Aiken) on her commitment to this afternoon. Likewise, the SNP Government have ending homelessness and on the skills and knowledge repeatedly called on the UK Government to suspend evident in her speech. We have had a thorough and the no-recourse-to-public-funds policy and enable people impassioned debate, rightly so, but I hardly know where to access public services, including health advice, during to start. We have had these debates before and I am sure the coronavirus pandemic. The Scottish Government the Minister can already guess some of the things I am will continue to extend support to people with no going to say—but I think they bear repetition. recourse to public funds where possible, but it would be Government MPs made my point for me when they good to have action by the UK Government on that as called for better funding for mental health and for drug well. and alcohol addiction services. The fact that those On 16 November, the Scottish Government announced services are lacking and that we need to fund them is a a further £278,000 of funding for six organisations sign of what has happened over the last 10 years. It is supporting people subject to NRPF. The grants will also an illustration of the fact that acts have consequences. support projects in Edinburgh and Glasgow that are When Governments take decisions in—let’s just pick a helping people subject to the UK Government’s policy, year at random—2010, the consequences can be felt which imposes conditions on someone because of their 10 years on. They still are. They are outside the door immigration status and restricts access to welfare, housing here and they are on the streets of Bristol, Rochester and financial support. I think we would all agree that and Strood and Westminster. They are on the streets in coronavirus is not something that respects people’s all our constituencies, but they are also—it is related—in immigration status—I will leave the Minister to reflect temporary accommodation across the country. The two on that. things are related; it should not be either/or. Despite the measures put in place by the Scottish As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Government, this area of work and pensions policy is Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) said, living in temporary clearly reserved to Westminster, and I think that that accommodation is a bad way to live. It is bad for children 201WH Winter Homelessness Support16 DECEMBER 2020 Winter Homelessness Support 202WH and it is bad for children’s education. Across the country Too often homelessness, particularly street homelessness, today, 130,000 children will be living in a place where is seen as a sad but inevitable fact of life or a moral there is not only usually nowhere suitable to cook a safe, failing on the part of the person who is homeless, and it healthy meal, let alone a celebratory one, but where is neither. It is a consequence of decisions taken by there is no way to do homework, where there is no wi-fi Governments. It can go up, but it can also go down. We signal, where they will fall behind in school. That will must make it go down and end it. I am talking about hurt us all. not just street homelessness, but making sure that the That child who is falling behind in school because of underlying causes of wider homelessness are tackled. their time in temporary accommodation could be the child that develops a cure for cancer, or comes up with 5.15 pm some radical way of improving environmental cleanliness, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, or something—anything. We are going to lose out on Communities and Local Government (Kelly Tolhurst): It their potential, because they are falling behind because is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. they are homeless. That is a consequence of Government I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for decision making. Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) on I will touch briefly on rough sleeping and then on securing this debate. I pay tribute to her work and other forms of homelessness. First, I have some questions passion in this area, which I have felt strongly in the for the Minister. How much exactly of the Protect couple of months that I have been in post. I also pay programme and the cold weather fund has made it out tribute to my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member of the door, as of today? As I understand it, although for Gravesham (Adam Holloway), whose direct experience the £15 million Protect programme was announced and in the area—he probably has more than many hon. a £10 million cold weather fund was announced, on Members present—and long-standing passion to target Monday only £9.8 million of the Protect programme work on the issue is inspirational. had been allocated. Why not the rest of the money—the I thank the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old other £5.2 million? Southwark (Neil Coyle) for his work with the APPG. Have councils actually got the cold weather fund in As he knows, I look forward to working with him on their hands? It is cold already. The Government worked some of the challenges. I am grateful to all hon. Members well with councils and charities in March to bring who have taken the time to speak on behalf of their everybody in, but it is colder now and there is less constituents for the passion with which they have made money, and my council and councillors across the country their arguments, particularly the hon. Member for are telling us of their struggle to keep going. Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), with whom I have had several conversations already about a number Rough sleeping is the tip of an iceberg; I know the of issues. Again, I commit to working with him on the Minister will expect me to say this, but I believe it to be things that concern him. true—it is the sharp end of a broken housing system I know that many of these issues are close to hon. with escalating private rents, widening inequality of Members’ hearts. The hon. Member for Birkenhead income and people in insecure jobs who get into difficulties (Mick Whitley) rightly highlighted the release on Monday the minute disaster strikes because they have never been of death stats of people who have sadly and tragically able to save money because their income is so unstable. died in emergency accommodation or on the streets. There is a chronic lack of supply. As my right hon. Today’s debate is key because in 2019, two in five of Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) those poor individuals, which equates to 289 people, mentioned, there is no way of solving homelessness lost their lives due to drug poisoning, and 112 people without addressing supply and, equally, there is no way lost their lives due to suicide. I will not name the of addressing supply without addressing social housing— individual, because I have not checked with his mother truly affordable housing, council housing or housing before speaking, but I lost a primary school friend last association housing, with support. The system we have year for that reason. For many years, he had been part at the moment is being exploited in cities across the of the rough sleeping fraternity in my community that I country, where exempt accommodation, although have worked with. I am not ignorant of the challenges sometimes run very well, is often run badly. It is paid for that those individuals face on the streets, which is why I from the public purse. This is not just an issue of am pleased to be in this role in Government. morality. There is also the issue of cost. It is unacceptable that people should be without a roof over their head during the cold winter months. Adam Holloway: Will the hon. Lady give way? Winter poses a number of new challenges for rough sleepers and for those who work tirelessly to support them. That is why we have put in place measures to Thangam Debbonaire: I am very aware of time, because ensure that local authorities can protect vulnerable I know the Minister has a lot to say. I will continue, if people this winter and meet the challenges of the coming the hon. Member will allow; he has intervened on months. various speakers. In October, we announced a comprehensive winter My hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mick support package for rough sleepers, which gives local Whitley) rightly highlighted the number of people who areas the tools that they need to protect individuals die while homeless. Pioneering work in my city of from life-threatening cold weather and covid. It included Bristol by the journalist Michael Yong showed the the £10 million winter fund, which is available to all humanity behind every one of those stories as well as, I local authorities to protect rough sleepers. Those vital am afraid to say, showing that they were preventable funds are being used to bring forward self-contained deaths. A policy failure lay behind almost every case. accommodation to support rough sleepers off the streets. 203WH Winter Homelessness Support16 DECEMBER 2020 Winter Homelessness Support 204WH

[Kelly Tolhurst] Kelly Tolhurst: Sorry, but I want to make some progress and tackle some of the points made by the hon. Member We understand the role that faith and community-led for Bristol West. accommodation plays in local authority pathways out In October, we announced allocations to local partners of homelessness during winter. Like the right hon. for move-on accommodation—3,300 new long-term Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) and others, I homes—building on the assets of local councils to pay tribute to the voluntary sector and our faith and deliver accommodation into the future. That is part of a community-led organisations that do so much to support broader package to deliver 6,000 homes. the work of Government and that work directly with As has rightly been mentioned today, rough sleepers those individuals. That is why we have been working require specialised wrap-around support, with stable with Public Health England to provide the operating accommodation on top of that. That is why on Monday principles that enable shelters to open as safely as possible. I announced the allocation to the substance misuse We have been clear, however, that night shelters should programme, which will deliver £23 million to the 43 priority be used only where absolutely necessary—based on a areas with the highest level of need, including three detailed covid-19 risk assessment, to protect against the pan-London projects. Those vital funds will provide the risk to health and life of individuals remaining on the specialist support needed to enable people sleeping streets—and when there is no alternative: in cold weather, rough with substance misuse to rebuild their lives off for example. thestreetandtomovetowardslonger-termaccommodation. Local authorities and shelter providers have been Here, I will say that I absolutely understand the link working together to offer self-contained accommodation between mental health and substance misuse with regards options to users. We expect to see a reduced number of to dealing with the impact on some of our most entrenched shelters opening this year. To address that, we have rough sleepers, and the challenges not only for the created the £2 million homelessness winter transformation people who work with rough sleepers but, obviously, to fund, to help the faith, community and voluntary sector the long-term success of being able to get those individuals groups move away from their traditional communal into accommodation. That is why I am pleased with the models.Theyhavebeenprovidingmoreinnovativesolutions, work, and looking forward to the outcomes, of the Housing and I am pleased to update Members about how there First pilots, which are operating around the country, have been some innovative and exciting bids from the and their continuation. We hope to build the strong voluntary, faith and community sector. Homeless Link argument in this country in order to make that argument has also been able to add £1.3 million to the fund from across Government, so that we can roll out as much of the national lottery and Comic Relief, increasing the it as we can. budget to meet demands. The successful applicants will get notice of their grants ahead of Christmas. I will speak quickly about no recourse to public funds.Obviously,we know that rough sleepers’immigration In response to national restrictions, the Protect status is an issue. The rules in relation to the legal programme was launched. It provides £50 million in position have not changed. Local authorities must use targeted support to address the housing and health their judgment in assessing what support they may needs of rough sleepers during the winter months. lawfully give to each person on an individual basis, Local authorities are already delivering those key services. considering the person’s specific needs and circumstances. The Protect programme involves intensive work with a We know that local authorities regularly make such number of local authorities, including Westminster and judgments on accommodating individuals, when, for the Greater London Authority. The additional funding example, there is extreme weather or a risk to life. Of is bringing forward new provision, including additional course, I understand that that is an issue for many local off-the-streetemergencyaccommodationandapan-London authorities and for hon. Members.I have had conversations covid-care facility, which will save lives. already with the leader of Westminster City Council in Toanswer the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam relation to this particular challenge,and they are continuing. Debbonaire) directly about allocations and whether I am also speaking to the Home Office, and will continue those funds are with authorities, I should say that we to work to build clarity in the system for councils. are working with the areas in most need. We are working I want to touch quickly on substance misuse. I sent a with them to agree forward plans, and those funds will “Dear colleague” letter to colleagues across the House be issued as soon as we are able. Ultimately, however, on Monday, including the results of a survey on rough the authorities that we are having those conversations sleepers—the first of its kind, where we got data directly and agreeing those plans with have the assurance of the from rough sleepers. It showed that 82% have a mental delivery of that work. We are working with councils up health vulnerability, and 60% are affected by substance and down the country. We have asked local areas to misuse. Obviously, that is not a complete picture, but it update their rough sleeping and severe weather plans, so is the first data that we have had directly from the that the measures will ensure that the wider sector has individuals who are suffering. the resource to protect rough sleepers not only from We announced the £23 million on Monday, but next severe cold weather but from the risks of covid. year that will be supported by £52 million. I absolutely I remind Members that such programmes do not sit understand the link between rough sleeping and some in isolation. Many have mentioned the success of the of the health challenges, and in my role I cannot say I Everyone In campaign, so I will not restate the figures, have all the answers now, but I can give a commitment but we supported more than 29,000 vulnerable people to work across Government with colleagues to tackle during it. some of the issues. Mental health is a major part of that, and obviously we already have £30 million of funding for mental health services that is being delivered Neil Coyle: Will the Minister give way? by the Department of Health and Social Care. 205WH Winter Homelessness Support16 DECEMBER 2020 Winter Homelessness Support 206WH

The Vagrancy Act 1824 is a complex issue, of concern 5.28 pm to many Members. We know from our engagement with stakeholders that there are diverging views about the Nickie Aiken: I thank all the hon. Members who took necessity for and relevance of the Act, which is why the part in this vital debate. We have heard from Members Government believe a review is the right course of representing places across the country how homelessness action. We are looking at options including retention, can affect our constituencies. repeal, replacement and amendment. I have already I take the point that the hon. Member for Birmingham, started to look at the issue in detail, but at the heart of Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) made about Housing First. the review will be the experiences and perceptions of a We could have spoken for hours about that, but it is the range of stakeholders, including the homelessness sector, entrenched rough sleepers who concern me more, because the police, local authorities and business representatives. I do not believe that they have the mental capacity to Work is ongoing, and the Government will be giving respond to the outreach work that we offer. updates on the findings in due course. I look forward to working with Members, but I reiterate that the Government I thank the Minister for her pledge on the Vagrancy continue to be clear that we will not criminalise, Act 1824 and the fact that we will be looking at welfare and do not want to criminalise, individuals who are rather than criminalisation. The word “vagrancy”should rough sleeping. We understand the complex individual be taken out of the Act, anyway. I thank everyone, and circumstances that can lead to rough sleeping. hope we can work together to end rough sleeping. If I have a couple of minutes, I would like quickly to Question put and agreed to. touch on social housing. It is absolutely something that the Government care about, and that is why we have Resolved, launched the £11.5 billion affordable homes programme. It is true that we need to move on temporary That this House has considered support for the homeless during the winter months. accommodation and that is why we have the Next Steps funding. That is exactly what we are doing about getting individuals moving on from Everyone In. I am running out of time. I shall write to the hon. 5.29 pm Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark about the data, because it is too complex to talk about now. Sitting adjourned.

25WS Written Statements 16 DECEMBER 2020 Written Statements 26WS

consider that the follower notice regime is an important Written Statements element in the legal framework available to HMRC to tackle tax avoidance. Wednesday 16 December 2020 In December 2018 the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee published its report “The Powers of HMRC: Treating Taxpayers Fairly”. In that report, the CABINET OFFICE Committee recommended that the penalties associated with follower notices be abolished. The Government Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee rejected the recommendation to abolish follower notice penalties as this would render the regime ineffective. However,I said in testimony to the Committee that HMRC The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister would examine the possibility of providing greater judicial for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): The next meeting oversight of the follower notice safeguards. of the Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee will take The Government understand the concerns that have place on 17 December 2020, by video conference, hosted been raised about follower notices, but it has not been by the EU. possible to identify any effective means of providing greater The meeting will be co-chaired by the Chancellor of judicial oversight of the follower notice regime which would the Duchy of Lancaster and the Vice-President of the not re-introduce, or even worsen, the delays in settlement European Commission, Maroš Šefcˇovicˇ. and payment of disputed tax which the regime was designed The agenda will include four items: to address. However, the Government have also taken the 1- Introduction and opening remarks from co-chairs: opportunity to look closely at other options to ensure Stocktake of Specialised Committee activity the follower notice regime can best achieve its objectives. Future Specialised Committee meetings. They accept that a better balance can be found between 2 - Update on Withdrawal Agreement Implementation: encouraging taxpayers who have used tax avoidance Citizens’ rights schemes which have been defeated in the courts, to Second joint report on residency reach agreement with HMRC; and allowing those who Joint Committee decision on triangulation genuinely believe their case is different from that heard Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland by the courts, to continue their dispute. This can best be Joint Committee decisions foreseen by the protocol achieved with a stronger focus on those whose continuation Joint Committee decision on correction of errors and omissions of their dispute, even once they have received a follower Unilateral declarations notice, is without merit. Disputesettlement—JointCommitteedecisionontheestablishment Therefore, I am announcing publication today of a of a list of arbitrators. consultation document “Follower Notices and Penalties”. 3 - AOB. This consultation proposes to reduce the level of penalty 4 - Concluding remarks. for a taxpayer not acting in response to a follower The UK delegation will include: notice from 50% of the disputed tax to 30%. A further Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the right hon. Michael penalty of 20% would be chargeable only in cases where Gove MP those receiving follower notices continue their disputes The Paymaster General, the right hon. Penny Mordaunt MP to litigation, and the tax tribunal rules that it was not Representatives from the Northern Ireland Executive reasonable for them to have done so. have been invited to form part of the UK delegation. The Government are committed to tackling all aspects [HCWS659] of the avoidance market, including those who promote tax avoidance schemes. The Government announced measures in July and November aimed at strengthening TREASURY HMRC’s ability to tackle those who sell avoidance schemes. National Insurance Contributions Re-rating 2021-22 The consultation has been published here: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/ The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): follower-notices-and-penalties. It will run to Wednesday In line with the approach set out in the spending review 27 January. document on 25 November (CP 330), the Government [HCWS661] will use the September consumer prices index (CPI) figure (0.5%) as the basis for setting all national insurance limits and thresholds, and the rates of class 2 and class 3 FOREIGN, COMMONWEALTH AND national insurance contributions, for 2021-22. A table DEVELOPMENT OFFICE of these 2021-22 national insurance rates and thresholds will be placed in the Library of both Houses. Independent Commission for Aid Impact: FCDO Review [HCWS657]

Follower Notices and Penalties The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): On 29 August, shortly before the inauguration The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): of the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, The Government introduced the follower notice regime I announced that I wanted to reinforce the Independent in Finance Act 2014, following a consultation titled Commission for Aid Impact’s role in helping Government “Raising the Stakes on Tax Avoidance”. The Government delivermaximumimpactforUKaidspending.Icommissioned 27WS Written Statements 16 DECEMBER 2020 Written Statements 28WS a review to ensure ICAI’s remit, methodology and The Government “Planning for the Future” White operating model focus on maximising the impact of Paper published on 6 August outlined a set of reforms UK overseas development assistance, support lesson- that are intended to lay the foundations for future house learning, and are in line with the aims of the FCDO and building and economic development, while meeting our our broader strategic framework for UK ODA, which I commitments to the environment and climate. These set out to the House on 26 November. Today I am reforms will create a planning system that is simpler and publishing that review. The review did not assess ICAI’s more certain, and that supports more homes to be built status as a non-departmental public body. and drives a more diverse and competitive housing The review concludes that ICAI provides strong external sector. As more homes are delivered under the new scrutiny of UK ODA and offers excellent support to system, they will be built to higher standards, putting Parliament in its role in holding the Government to account. an emphasis on design, beauty, heritage and sustainability This must continue. ICAI has an important role in at the heart of the planning system. And that system will driving learning and focused action as well as providing be a digital one that is more accessible and understandable assurance to UK taxpayers and Parliament. Its formal for citizens and developers alike. Weare currently analysing remit should therefore include lesson learning as well as the 40,000 consultation responses and will publish a scrutiny and evaluation to enable its recommendations response in the spring which will set out our decisions to lead to real change. on the proposed way forward, including to prepare for The review makes a number of recommendations to legislation, should we so decide, in the autumn. increase ICAI’s impact on ODA spending and to ensure In August, we also set out a proposal for a new standard that it delivers practical recommendations. These include method for assessing local housing need to ensure that focusing its remit to support Government learning as all local authorities were planning to build enough new well as independent evaluation and scrutiny, and ensuring homes. reviews contribute to a wider body of best practice. There were many consultation responses which did There are also several recommendations for the FCDO not fully recognise that the standard method does not to improve its own role in the scrutiny process, including present a “target” in plan-making, but instead provides supporting and responding to ICAI’s reviews and helping a starting point for determining the level of need for ICAI in its work with other ODA-spending departments. housing in an area. It is only after consideration of this, The FCDO should also be willing to discuss ICAI’s alongside what constraints areas face, such as the green forward workplan, mindful that decisions on review belt, and the land that is actually available for development, topics will remain with ICAI Commissioners. that the decision on how many homes should be planned The review consulted a broad range of parliamentary, for is made. It is crucial that planning is more certain civil society and Government stakeholders, including and more transparent, so we will explore how we can ICAI itself, through a series of interviews and roundtables. make this clearer through our longer-term planning The review also took into account written contributions, reforms, including considering the right name for this including from members of the public. I am grateful for approach. all of their valuable contributions. There is widespread support for ensuring enough The Government will now discuss the content of this homes are built across England to ensure the needs of review with ICAI’s commissioners and work with them our communities are met. We heard clearly through the to implement the recommendations. consultation that the building of these homes should A copy of the review will be placed in the Libraries of not come at the expense of harming our precious green both Houses. spaces. We also heard views that this need can be better [HCWS658] met in existing urban areas. There are good reasons for this. First, our urban centres are the best served by existing infrastructure, with schools, HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL shops and medical facilities. GOVERNMENT Secondly, building more homes in our cities and urban centres will mean making the best use of brownfield Housing land, of which many cities and urban centres continue to have large quantities, and protecting our countryside as much as possible. The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Thirdly, building homes around our transport hubs Local Government (Robert Jenrick): Today the Government will help us to deliver our ambition to tackle climate are publishing the response to the consultation on the change by offering greater access to more sustainable standard method for assessing local housing need and forms of transport and reducing unnecessary journeys. setting out further steps in our plan to increase housing delivery as we recover from the covid-19 pandemic. In the months since we consulted, the profound impact Our manifesto set out that we would deliver a million of covid-19 on our towns and cities has become even homes over the course of this Parliament and that we would clearer. It has magnified and accelerated patterns that seek to increase house building towards 300,000 new already existed and while it is too soon to know for homes a year. We have made strong progress towards certain the scale of the long-term impact, it is very likely this goal, with more homes built in the last year than at to present a generational challenge and opportunity to any time since 1987, taking the total delivered since repurpose more commercial centres, offices and retail 2010 to over 1.8 million. We want to build more homes spaces into housing and mixed uses. as a matter of social justice, of inter-generational fairness We recognised these changes in the summer when we and as one of the best proven ways of creating jobs and brought forward reforms to the use classes order and economic growth. new permitted development rights to regenerate vacant 29WS Written Statements 16 DECEMBER 2020 Written Statements 30WS buildings, to provide the greatest flexibility possible to Second, we intend to revise the current“80:20” rule meet this moment and to repurpose and recycle buildings which guides how much Government housing infrastructure for public good. These significant changes were enacted funding is available in all parts of the country, so that it at pace and are now available for use by individuals and is at the service of the most ambitious local authorities businesses. and those who want to tackle unaffordability. This will This Government were elected on a pledge to level up establish a new principle that helps to better support all parts of the country. It was clear from the responses our levelling up and home-building objectives. that people supported this ambition and wanted to see Third, we will invest public funds to support areas housing delivery play a significant part in achieving this to regenerate brownfield land. We are establishing a goal. Wewant to see more public and, in particular,private £7.1 billion national home building fund: brownfield sector investment in housing in our nation’s great cities, remediation, urban regeneration and infrastructure for regenerating these areas, improving the quality of housing housing will be the significant components of its mission. stock and driving up living standards. This is vital for Today, we are announcing £67 million of funding from ensuring a better quality of life for existing residents this to help the west midlands and Greater Manchester and for attracting and retaining aspirational families. mayoral combined authorities to deliver new homes on brownfield land, helping to breathe new life into sites We want to play our part in realising these goals by such as Longbridge in Birmingham. And we have launched building more homes in cities and urban centres, a new £100 million brownfield land release fund for encouraging interest by developers and institutional local authorities to encourage similar ambitions. investors in these places, setting them on a path to greater We recognise that to meet the housing needs of the prosperity and to a more economically balanced country, country, London needs to build more homes. Delivery and providing the certainty that is needed to support in the capital remains far too low,creating acute affordability areas to recover after covid-19. changes for its residents, as well as putting severe pressure For this reason, we plan to leave the standard method on the wider south-east. as it was created in 2017 for the majority of the country. In the short term we expect to agree the London plan We have seen that these levels are beginning to create with the Mayor early in the new year which will set his ambitious plans in many parts of the country, which we plan for,amongst other things, meeting London’s housing expect to drive housing delivery beyond its current near need. This will support greater ambition in London, but record levels. It is also clear that the standard method alone will not go nearly far enough to meet need in does not act as a ceiling for the ambitions of some local London. We now need to focus on the medium and long authorities, with some planning to exceed their local term and create a plan to better address London’s figures to meet the needs of their residents, create jobs housing needs, while protecting the character of London’s and drive economic growth in their areas. We strongly communities, particularly in outer London, and London welcome this ambition and will support these local as a place for families. authorities to achieve their goals, including through We will consider how Homes England can play an specifically directing public investment to them through active role in London, working with the GLA and the £7.1 billion national home building fund we are directly with ambitious London boroughs for the first establishing. time. There are clear areas for development in London, We recognise that we need to go further than the including Nine Elms, Old Oak Common and more previous standard method to achieve the ambition to broadly in inner east London where there is significant build more in urban areas. So we will be increasing local brownfield land for development. A new role for Homes housing need above current levels by 35% for authorities England will ensure robust bids are prepared for the national which contain the largest proportion of the 20 most home building fund and the right types of homes are built populated cities and urban centres in England. in the right places. Many of these places are already delivering or have a We hope that this approach will find broad support. plan to deliver at or around this level. For example, We want to make sure that all areas of the country take Nottingham, Hull, Liverpool, Newcastle and Stoke have seriously the need to build more homes and we will all delivered more homes on average across the last focus public funding on supporting our aspirations for three years than the revised standard method assesses home building, whilst also supporting a renewed national their annual need to be. But others will need to go further effort to regenerate and level up by increasing housing than they do today. delivery and private sector investment in our cities. There is now an opportunity for a new trajectory for our They will not be alone in this task. To help support great cities. We hope that these changes will mark the our cities and urban centres we are announcing several first step along the path to forging a new country beyond measures. First, we are establishing an urban centres covid-19,whichishealthier,morebeautiful,moresustainable recovery taskforce, which will bring together the leading and more neighbourly, and one in which more of our experts in the field, like Sir Howard Bernstein, Sir George fellow citizens,regardless of age or wealth, enjoy the dignity Iacobescu and Dame Alison Nimmo, to consider what and security of a home of their own. actions the Government could take to support urban [HCWS660] centres as they recover from covid-19.

3P Petitions 16 DECEMBER 2020 Petitions 4P

the development of viable options have undertaken a Petition co-design process and determined that a greater focus on community services will allow for the provision of Wednesday 16 December 2020 better support for those who require care locally. At the end of September 2020, south Tyneside CCG OBSERVATIONS governing body approved plans for a new range of end of life services. A £1.5 million annual investment was approved, which will provide improved end of life services HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE for people who prefer to die at home, as well as a suite of “home from home” end of life bedrooms at Haven Palliative care at Primrose Terrace, Jarrow Court, a purpose built care facility, in South Shields. The petition of residents of the constituency of Jarrow. Funding for hospices and end of life care is a local Declares that it is vital that high quality, compassionate matter for CCGs, and the Government believe palliative and end-of-life care is accessible across the commissioners are best placed to make funding decisions country; further declares that each person who is nearing according to the needs of resident populations in their the end of their life should feel safe in the knowledge area. they will receive the very best care and be supported to Background die peacefully and painlessly; notes that in the Jarrow St Clare’s hospice was located at the Primrose Terrace constituency, St Clare’s hospice collapsed into insolvency site in Jarrow. Following a CQC inspection in September in January 2019 after more than 30 years, leaving the 2018, St Clare’s hospice was rated as inadequate overall. borough without an end-of-life care facility; and further The hospice was rated as requiring improvement in notes that a petition requesting to keep palliative care at 2016 and had deteriorated since then. the Primrose Terrace site in Jarrow, rather than setting up an alternative site elsewhere within the borough, has Inspectors raised a number of concerns, including received 13,500 signatures. significant safety issues in areas such as medicines management, incident investigation and risk identification. The petitioners therefore request that the House of Improvements were needed in key areas including clinical Commons urge the Government to support the NHS leadership and governance, which included auditing South Tyneside Clinical Commissioning Group in procedures and staff training and development. reopening the St Clare’s hospice site at Primrose Terrace, Jarrow. St Clare’s hospice was a standalone hospice provider, which was a charitable incorporated organisation that And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Kate received over 40% of its funding from the local Osborne, Official Report, 8 September 2020; Vol. 679, commissioning group. The hospice had been operational c. 584.] [P002595] since 1987, was based in Jarrow and offered specialist Observations from The Minister for Care (Helen palliative care for adults who lived south of the Tyne. Whately): The service operated both day hospice and inpatient It is crucial that residents of the constituency of hospice services, and provided palliative and end of life Jarrow and their families receive high quality and dignified care for over 451 patients. care as they approach the end of life. The Government The hospice had been running at a significant loss for are aware that, following St Clare’sclosure in January 2019, several years, and in the months prior to closure had the Care Quality Commission (CQC), local NHS been working hard with numerous partners to find a commissioners and trusts, local hospices and Hospice solution. Even with these best efforts, the decision was UK worked hard to develop a sustainable solution for made that the liabilities were such that the organisation St Clare’s hospice, in partnership with its management could not be saved by further cost savings or reconfiguration. team. The co-design exercise undertaken by south Tyneside We know that despite these efforts, St Clare’s financial CCG clarified that residents in the area needed expanded position, sadly, could not be saved. support in the community and at home, and required a The priority for commissioners following the closure bedded facility in the area. As such, the governing body was to ensure that the vulnerable patients relying on the of South Tyneside Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) hospice could get the support they need. Following approved a £1.5 million annual investment, which will closure, arrangements were put in place to ensure that provide improved end of life services for people who patients could access high quality services both with prefer to die at home, as well as a suite of “home from hospices in neighbouring areas, and with South Tyneside home”end of life bedrooms at Haven Court, a purpose-built NHS Foundation Trust. care services facility with a private garden, and car Over the last 19 months, local commissioners have been park. Haven Court is in South Tyneside, but is in the exploring a range of viable options for effective new constituency of South Shields, unlike the previous hospice palliative care services locally.The commissioners overseeing which was located in Jarrow.

1MC Ministerial Corrections16 DECEMBER 2020 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

benefits to the tune of £140 a year roughly, which Ministerial Correction represents £3.5 billion of public money and is a significant contribution. Wednesday 16 December 2020 [Official Report, 19 November 2020, Vol. 684, c. 233WH.] Letter of correction from the Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth, the right hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng): BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL An error has been identified in my response to the STRATEGY hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook). Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps The correct response should have been: The following is an extract from a Westminster Hall Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Member for Greenwich debate on 19 November 2020. and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook) was good enough to mention the warm home discount, which was not Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Member for Greenwich referred to in any of the speeches by SNP Members. Of and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook) was good enough course, the warm home discount that he was good to mention the warm home discount, which was not enough to mention is a critical part of the Government’s referred to in any of the speeches by SNP Members. Of fight against fuel poverty. It provides financial assistance course, the warm home discount that he was good to more than 2 million low-income and vulnerable enough to mention is a critical part of the Government’s households each winter,and each one of those households fight against fuel poverty. It provides financial assistance benefits to the tune of £140 a year roughly, which to more than 3 million low-income and vulnerable represents over £3 billion of direct assistance over the last households each winter,and each one of those households 10 years and is a significant contribution.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 16 December 2020

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 263 WALES—continued Engagements...... 263 Fishing...... 253 Engagements...... 271 Manufacturing...... 260 Transition Period: Business ...... 271 Pub Closures: Covid-19...... 258 Shared Prosperity Fund ...... 256 WALES...... 253 Shared Prosperity Fund ...... 262 Agriculture...... 257 The Union ...... 261 Financial Support: Covid-19...... 259 Transition Period: Business ...... 253 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 16 December 2020

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 25WS HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee ...... 25WS GOVERNMENT...... 27WS Housing ...... 27WS

FOREIGN, COMMONWEALTH AND TREASURY ...... 25WS DEVELOPMENT OFFICE...... 26WS Follower Notices and Penalties ...... 25WS Independent Commission for Aid Impact: FCDO National Insurance Contributions Re-rating Review ...... 26WS 2021-22 ...... 25WS PETITION

Wednesday 16 December 2020

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE...... 3P Palliative care at Primrose Terrace, Jarrow ...... 3P MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 16 December 2020

Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY ...... 1MC Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps ...... 1MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 23 December 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 686 Wednesday No. 153 16 December 2020

CONTENTS

Wednesday 16 December 2020 Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 253] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister Immigration Rules: Supported Accommodation [Col. 275] Answer to urgent question—(Chris Philp) Uyghur Slave Labour: Xinjiang [Col. 291] Answer to urgent question—(Nigel Adams) Arms (Exports and Remote Warfare) [Col. 307] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Alyn Smith)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill: Business of the House [Col. 309] Motion—(Greg Hands)—agreed to Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill [Col. 312] Motion for Second Reading—(Greg Hands)—agreed to Read a Second time Considered in Committee Not amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed United Kingdom Internal Market Bill [Col. 338] Lords message considered Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority [Col. 351] Motion—(Mr Rees-Mogg)—agreed to Petition [Col. 353] Border Carbon Adjustment Tariffs and Decarbonisation [Col. 354] Debate on motion for Adjournment Westminster Hall National Tree Strategy [Col. 125WH] Walthamstow Toy Library Eviction: NHS Role [Col. 150WH] Breast Cancer Screening [Col. 159WH] Defence Manufacturing and Procurement: Shropshire [Col. 182WH] Winter Homelessness Support [Col. 189WH] General Debates Written Statements [Col. 25WS] Petition [Col. 3P] Ministerial Correction [Col. 1MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]