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NATIONAL ARCHIVES IRELAND Reference Code: 2014/105/745 NATIONAL ARCHIVES IRELAND Reference Code: 2014/105/745 Creation Date(s): 3 August 1984 Extent and medium: 11 pages Creator(s): Department of the Taoiseach Access Conditions: Open Copyright: National Archives, Ireland. May only be reproduced with the written permission of the Director of the National Archives. • Mer.tinr.:;r·lpf't1nr; bctv~ecnbetv.'ecn thethe Govc:rnmc11t.Govc: rnmCt lt. a.ncla.nd thethe> /\JJ1&nci::flJ J 1unc~ JJ'[JI[jrtyrty' u.~eu~U~eu~; ;tt J) 9c11 98 1 1 Prt:sc11tPrescnt onon thethe GovernmentGovcrnment sideside were:were: TheThe TaoiseachTaoiseach Dr.Dr. GarretGarret FitzGerald,FitzGerald, T.D.,T.D., TheThe Tanaiste,Tanaiste, Mr.Mr. DickDick Spring,Spring, T.D.T.D. TheThe MinisterMinister forfor ForeignForeign Affairs,Affairs, Mr.Mr. PeterPeter BarryBarry T.D.,T.D., accompaniedaccompanied byby Mr.Mr. WalterWaIter KirwanKirwan DepartmentDepartment ofof thethe TaoiseachTaoiseac}l andand MessrsMessrs Lillis,Lilli8, BurkeBurke andand 00 Ccallaigh,Ceallaigh, DepartmentDepartment ofof ForeignForeign •• Affairs.Affairs. TheThe AllianceAlliance PartyParty DelegationDelegation consistedconsisted of:of: TheThe PartyParty Leader,Leader, M~.M~. OliverOliver NapierNapier Mr.Mr. DavidDavid Cook, DeputyDeputy LeaderLeader Mr.Mr . John Cushnahan, Chief Whip,vlhip, Mr. Seamus Close, The Party Chairman, Mrs. Jane Copeland and Party Secretary, Mrs. Susan Edgar. , The meeting started at 12.30 and concluded at 4.00. The substantive discussions took place over the lunch table without adjourning to the Conference Room. The Taoiseach opened the discussions by saying that the situation in Northern Ireland has changed significantly and that 40% of thethe nationalist vote now goes toto Sinn Fein. There , . is withinwithin thethe nationalistnationalist community an element which could swingswing eithereither toto thethe SDLPSDLP oror SinnSinn Fein.Fein. It isis importantimportant that peoplepeople findfind itit possiblepossible toto givegive theirtheir supportsupport toto constitutionalconstitutional politicianspoliticians andand toto thethe securitysecurity forces.forces. NationalistsNationalists havehave triedtried toto refocusrefocus theirtheir thoughtsthoughts atat aa fundamentalfundamental level.level. WeWe acceptaccept thatthat forfor thethe foreseeableforeseeable futurefuture neitherneither sideside willwill getget everythingeverything theythey wantwant (the(the TaoiseachTaoiseach onon aa numbernumber ofof occasionsoccasions saidsaid thatthat nationalistsnationalists clearlyclearly wouldwould wishwish toto seesee ~united~united \ Ireland).Ireland). WeWe areare interestedinterested inin tryingtrying toto restorerestore aa' situationsituation inin whichwhich peoplepeople inin NorthernNorthern IrelandIreland cancan livelive aa reasonablereasonable life.life. TheThe necessarynecessary changeschanges willwill involveinvolve securitysecurity elements.elements. -- 2 - ~ CookCool,::: interjectinte e j ec t cded to nay that there had been_been..... .,,a a ssie;nificant ic;nif icant improvement in Northern Ireland in recent years and RUC men can nownOVl patrol where in the past they could not. The Taolseach accepted that there is not at present the same violence on the streets that existed in the past. What is central in our thinking is our awareness of the extent to which significant numbers withinvd thin the minority community see no future in .• constitutional nationalism. This is a very sinister phBnomenonphenomenon II at a political level. Napier agreed that a very large section of the minority community can not see an acceptable political role for themselves at present. In these circumstances people, though•though' not ideologically committed to the Provisionals, will in anger and in frustration vote Sinn Fein. The rise in the DUP vote and the vote for Paisley is in its own way a mirror image of similar feelingsfeelines withinvii thin the majority community. Cushnahan added that the belief is widespread in the minority community that if the unionists and the British refuse to give them a share in power they should take power. The Minister said that the decisions taken by the Courts to acquit RUC men charged with murder of Catholics confirmed the minority in their view that the judicial system offered them no remedy. Napier said t~e decision in the Robinson case was / difficult to understandunderstand.. CushnahanCushnahan-' added that Judge Gibson had taken on a political role \when'lhen he made his comments and th._aat t his words were unbelievable. The Taoiseach said both Judge McDermott and Judge Gibson had made impermissible statements in Court which had not been retracted, to which Cook added that the later Gibson statement was perceived in the Protestant Community as being in effect a retraction. \ Cushnahan recalled the murders of Catholic Judges by the Provisionals saying the best element in the judiciary had been killed. Gibson is an ally of the Provisionals and the latter would not touchtouch him, (which is sensible terrorist tactics). 3 H uTlderGundern anusands hO\,lcvcrho\':cvcr ...wll~· :11 mcmucr'Grncml>crs of the:the security forces G1hootG1hoot ra "her'h 'r' than \'131w 1 t to uel>e Ghotshot . .<'£ .. pi.crpier added -~hatthat Hhatwr at \-/aswas rl.OGtruor,t ./ da .asing.ai;ing were-ere he cODlco 111entsnentG made by~ the Judges not the fact ttatthat thehe RUCRUG menen badh~d been Cicquo.cqui ted.ted . CushnaCushnahan an said the charge should ha\e.a'e beehec1 a lesser one than murder . The ?aoiseacl said that in the 1920's the Irish GoverGovernment e t had tried o deal ~iwi h the proproblem lem of policing. The view was taken thathat anany departure from proper standards would not'no~ be tolerated.tolerated . If you are not prepared to do that the whole system of justice is weakened.weakened . Until such time as some members of the security forces are found guilty of shooting to kill they will never find acceptance in the minority community.community . The Minister added that the perception within the minority community is that the police anda nd the judiciary accept that the end justifies the means. Cushnahan said some people have over st~essed alienation.alienation . There is in fact a widespread acceptance of the security forcesf orces \-lithinwithin the minority community and the attiattitudetude ofof the minority to the security forces is improving year by year . The UDR are seen differently and there is a deepening suspicion of themthem.. In his view the RUC is more acceptable than the ArmyArmy.. The Taoiseach disagreeddisagreed.. He thought the most acceptab~e security forces Kas the British ~rrnyArmy and that the totality of he securit'securit forces is less acceptableacceptab_e no-.1nOi~ ·1ithin-ithin the minorityinority co1COl 1:n;n l1 .. iit thathat hereheretofore. o:'ore. Cook repeated that the RUGRUC are, now a le to do an ordinary policing job in places, including Westlest Belfast, where it was impossible five years agoago.. apier sai~ that if there is a burglary in West Belfast people, including Sinn Fein supporters, will contact the RUCRUC.. If on the other hand a person is stopped coming home from a dance then it becomes another mattermatter.. There is a double stand~dstand~d.. The Taoiseach summing up said that where ordinarordinaryy crime is concerned people look extensively to the popolice.lic e. The probprobleml em is the extent to which large numbers ooff peopeopleple do not aacceptc c ept 11 \ ~ thethe poljccpolj cc inin securitysecurity matters matters and and the the extent exten/t to to which which people people ·"' expectexpect nono rcdreGsredre3s fromfrom thethe judiciary.judiciary . ThisThis is is true true not not only only inin workinGworkinB classclass areasareas inin Belfast Belfast but but is is true true for for many many in in the the middlemiddle claso.class . ItIt isis thisthis broadbroad type type of of alienation alienation which which we we mustmust ackleackle nono mattermatter whatwhat thethe cost. cost . Napierapier accepted accepted that that alienationalienation isis a a bigbig problem.problem . \'hen~hen asl~edasked b b thethe J• inisterinister if if one 0 e couldcould differentiate differentiate between beiween thehe ageage groupsgrou s withinwithin thethe RUC RUC CookCook said said that that the the younger younger membersme,bers areare moremore sensitivesens~ ive and and better better trained trained than than the the older older ones.ones . (This(This doesdoes notnot accordaccord with with the the views views we we hear hear elsewhere).elsewhere) . CushnahanCushnahan added added that that he he suspects suspects some some people people are are joiningjoining thethe RUCRUC forfor thethe wrongwrong reasons reasons. HeHe shares shares Cook's Cook ' sview view butbut hehe appreciatesappreciates therethere isi s a a sectarians ectari an problem. problem . ThereThere will will continuecontinue toto bebe areasareas wherewhere thethe behaviour behavi ou r ofo f· the"the RUC RU Cwill wil l beb e lessless thanthan whatwhat isis required.required . "' InIn responseresponse toto thethe TanaisteTanaiste who who askedasked how how the the majority majority saw sa wthe t he RUGRUC CushnahanCushnahan referredreferred toto slogansslogans onon walls walls in in East East Belfast Belfast - - SS=RUC.SS=RUC . TheThe evidenceevidence ofof suchsuch sloganss logans isis that that the the RUG RUC are are doing doing anan effectiveeffective jobjob. CookCook addedadded that that the the fact fact thatthat Paisley Paisley has has forfor twotwo yearsyears demandeddemanded thethe retirementretirement
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