NATIONAL ARCHIVES
IRELAND
Reference Code: 2014/105/745 Creation Date(s): 3 August 1984 Extent and medium: 11 pages Creator(s): Department of the Taoiseach Access Conditions: Open Copyright: National Archives, Ireland. May only be reproduced with the written permission of the Director of the National Archives. • Mer.tinr.:;r·lpf't1nr; bctv~ecnbetv.'ecn thethe Govc:rnmc11t.Govc: rnmCt lt. a.ncla.nd thethe> /\JJ1&nci::flJ J 1unc~ JJ'[JI[jrtyrty' u.~eu~U~eu~; ;tt J) 9c11 98 1 1
Prt:sc11tPrescnt onon thethe GovernmentGovcrnment sideside were:were: TheThe TaoiseachTaoiseach Dr.Dr. GarretGarret FitzGerald,FitzGerald, T.D.,T.D., TheThe Tanaiste,Tanaiste, Mr.Mr. DickDick Spring,Spring, T.D.T.D. TheThe MinisterMinister forfor ForeignForeign Affairs,Affairs, Mr.Mr. PeterPeter BarryBarry T.D.,T.D., accompaniedaccompanied byby Mr.Mr. WalterWaIter KirwanKirwan DepartmentDepartment ofof thethe TaoiseachTaoiseac}l andand MessrsMessrs Lillis,Lilli8, BurkeBurke andand 00 Ccallaigh,Ceallaigh, DepartmentDepartment ofof ForeignForeign •• Affairs.Affairs.
TheThe AllianceAlliance PartyParty DelegationDelegation consistedconsisted of:of: TheThe PartyParty Leader,Leader, M~.M~. OliverOliver NapierNapier Mr.Mr. DavidDavid Cook, DeputyDeputy LeaderLeader Mr.Mr . John Cushnahan, Chief Whip,vlhip, Mr. Seamus Close, The Party Chairman, Mrs. Jane Copeland and Party Secretary, Mrs. Susan Edgar. , The meeting started at 12.30 and concluded at 4.00.
The substantive discussions took place over the lunch table without adjourning to the Conference Room.
The Taoiseach opened the discussions by saying that the situation in Northern Ireland has changed significantly and that 40% of thethe nationalist vote now goes toto Sinn Fein. There , . is withinwithin thethe nationalistnationalist community an element which could swingswing eithereither toto thethe SDLPSDLP oror SinnSinn Fein.Fein. It isis importantimportant that peoplepeople findfind itit possiblepossible toto givegive theirtheir supportsupport toto constitutionalconstitutional politicianspoliticians andand toto thethe securitysecurity forces.forces. NationalistsNationalists havehave triedtried toto refocusrefocus theirtheir thoughtsthoughts atat aa fundamentalfundamental level.level. WeWe acceptaccept thatthat forfor thethe foreseeableforeseeable futurefuture neitherneither sideside willwill getget everythingeverything theythey wantwant (the(the TaoiseachTaoiseach onon aa numbernumber ofof occasionsoccasions
saidsaid thatthat nationalistsnationalists clearlyclearly wouldwould wishwish toto seesee ~united~united \ Ireland).Ireland). WeWe areare interestedinterested inin tryingtrying toto restorerestore aa' situationsituation inin whichwhich peoplepeople inin NorthernNorthern IrelandIreland cancan livelive aa reasonablereasonable life.life. TheThe necessarynecessary changeschanges willwill involveinvolve securitysecurity elements.elements. -- 2 -
~ CookCool,::: interjectinte e j ec t cded to nay that there had been_been...... ,,a a ssie;nificant ic;nif icant improvement in Northern Ireland in recent years and RUC men can nownOVl patrol where in the past they could not. The Taolseach accepted that there is not at present the same violence on the streets that existed in the past. What is central in our thinking is our awareness of the extent to which significant numbers withinvd thin the minority community see no future in .• constitutional nationalism. This is a very sinister phBnomenonphenomenon II at a political level.
Napier agreed that a very large section of the minority community can not see an acceptable political role for themselves at present. In these circumstances people, though•though' not ideologically committed to the Provisionals, will in anger and in frustration vote Sinn Fein. The rise in the DUP vote and the vote for Paisley is in its own way a mirror image of similar feelingsfeelines withinvii thin the majority community. Cushnahan added that the belief is widespread in the minority community that if the unionists and the British refuse to give them a share in power they should take power.
The Minister said that the decisions taken by the Courts to acquit RUC men charged with murder of Catholics confirmed the minority in their view that the judicial system offered them no remedy. Napier said t~e decision in the Robinson case was / difficult to understandunderstand.. CushnahanCushnahan-' added that Judge Gibson had taken on a political role \when'lhen he made his comments and th._aat t his words were unbelievable. The Taoiseach said both Judge McDermott and Judge Gibson had made impermissible statements in Court which had not been retracted, to which Cook added that the later Gibson statement was perceived in the Protestant Community as being in effect a retraction. \ Cushnahan recalled the murders of Catholic Judges by the Provisionals saying the best element in the judiciary had been killed. Gibson is an ally of the Provisionals and the latter would not touchtouch him, (which is sensible terrorist tactics). 3
H uTlderGundern anusands hO\,lcvcrho\':cvcr ...wll~· :11 mcmucr'Grncml>crs of the:the security forces G1hootG1hoot ra "her'h 'r' than \'131w 1 t to uel>e Ghotshot . .<'£ .. pi.crpier added -~hatthat Hhatwr at \-/aswas rl.OGtruor,t ./ da .asing.ai;ing were-ere he cODlco 111entsnentG made by~ the Judges not the fact ttatthat thehe RUCRUG menen badh~d been Cicquo.cqui ted.ted . CushnaCushnahan an said the charge should ha\e.a'e beehec1 a lesser one than murder .
The ?aoiseacl said that in the 1920's the Irish GoverGovernment e t had tried o deal ~iwi h the proproblem lem of policing. The view was taken thathat anany departure from proper standards would not'no~ be tolerated.tolerated . If you are not prepared to do that the whole system of justice is weakened.weakened . Until such time as some members of the security forces are found guilty of shooting to kill they will never find acceptance in the minority community.community . The Minister added that the perception within the minority community is that the police anda nd the judiciary accept that the end justifies the means.
Cushnahan said some people have over st~essed alienation.alienation . There is in fact a widespread acceptance of the security forcesf orces \-lithinwithin the minority community and the attiattitudetude ofof the minority to the security forces is improving year by year . The UDR are seen differently and there is a deepening suspicion of themthem.. In his view the RUC is more acceptable than the ArmyArmy..
The Taoiseach disagreeddisagreed.. He thought the most acceptab~e security forces Kas the British ~rrnyArmy and that the totality of
he securit'securit forces is less acceptableacceptab_e no-.1nOi~ ·1ithin-ithin the minorityinority co1COl 1:n;n l1 .. iit thathat hereheretofore. o:'ore. Cook repeated that the RUGRUC are, now a le to do an ordinary policing job in places, including Westlest Belfast, where it was impossible five years agoago.. apier sai~ that if there is a burglary in West Belfast people, including Sinn Fein supporters, will contact the RUCRUC.. If on the other hand a person is stopped coming home from a dance then it becomes another mattermatter.. There is a double stand~dstand~d..
The Taoiseach summing up said that where ordinarordinaryy crime is concerned people look extensively to the popolice.lic e. The probprobleml em is the extent to which large numbers ooff peopeopleple do not aacceptc c ept 11
\ ~ thethe poljccpolj cc inin securitysecurity matters matters and and the the extent exten/t to to which which people people ·"' expectexpect nono rcdreGsredre3s fromfrom thethe judiciary.judiciary . ThisThis is is true true not not only only inin workinGworkinB classclass areasareas inin Belfast Belfast but but is is true true for for many many in in the the middlemiddle claso.class . ItIt isis thisthis broadbroad type type of of alienation alienation which which we we mustmust ackleackle nono mattermatter whatwhat thethe cost. cost . Napierapier accepted accepted that that alienationalienation isis a a bigbig problem.problem .
\'hen~hen asl~edasked b b thethe J• inisterinister if if one 0 e couldcould differentiate differentiate between beiween thehe ageage groupsgrou s withinwithin thethe RUC RUC CookCook said said that that the the younger younger membersme,bers areare moremore sensitivesens~ ive and and better better trained trained than than the the older older ones.ones . (This(This doesdoes notnot accordaccord with with the the views views we we hear hear elsewhere).elsewhere) . CushnahanCushnahan added added that that he he suspects suspects some some people people are are joiningjoining thethe RUCRUC forfor thethe wrongwrong reasons reasons. . HeHe shares shares Cook's Cook ' sview view butbut hehe appreciatesappreciates therethere isi s a a sectarians ectari an problem. problem . ThereThere will will continuecontinue toto bebe areasareas wherewhere thethe behaviour behavi ou r ofo f· the"the RUC RU Cwill wil l be b e lessless thanthan whatwhat isis required.required . "' InIn responseresponse toto thethe TanaisteTanaiste who who askedasked how how the the majority majority saw sa wthe t he RUGRUC CushnahanCushnahan referredreferred toto slogansslogans onon walls walls in in East East Belfast Belfast - - SS=RUC.SS=RUC . TheThe evidenceevidence ofof suchsuch sloganss logans isis that that the the RUG RUC are are doing doing anan effectiveeffective jobjob. . CookCook addedadded that that the the fact fact thatthat Paisley Paisley has has forfor twotwo yearsyears demandeddemanded thethe retirementretirement of of the the Chief Chief Constable Constable is is aa signsign thatthat SirSir JqhnJQhn HermonHermon isis doingdoing a a goodgood job.job .
LillisLillis saidsaid thatthat teve acceptaccept thatthat thethe RUC RUC have have improved. improved . WeVe know know tlhat at ifif a a ordina~jor ina ~n murderurder occursoccurs fni OnWest v:est Belfast Bel~ast the the RUC RUC will \,lill ee caca ledle in.in . \e. e alsoalso k k.EO\'o · that. a4- thehe" uould\ ould co:ne co:ne in in an a armouredarooured , ~he ca. · ' .at. at is is i ortaorta t caca ai:.a, . he car . error:.sts . ha ...... e - .~..:.s .
- ..::...s ~ -:... ·e,
• • T • , _ o- •e are co": ::..s e::...r:b :- e:-e • ::::.o'·" ao ;e co_ e -·.::e:-. are ::::: g to ;o~e ~or .ose.ose - ".,o 0 c~ 1ese ·e~e areare ea'!ea"::" g g ~or~or d!s!d:s::". ergrae~gra~::"o !o.
·e:e caca •.Ou 0 s sandand acKack.. =f t :s:'s d!sidisi tergratergr at_oio isis not no ha-ha eded hee olio_i~'cal ical corCO! seq seq encesences ofo~ het.e ProTisionalsPro'isionals getting getti gmore Qore - 5 -
~ . I than 50:;50,... of the nation;:nationalist list vote \'lOuld\'IOUld be enormou~.;enorrnour.: . It could ./,/ al"o lead 0o a significant escalation in violence.violence . The EuroEuropean enn election is only a temporary halt . What is happen1happening g
no,nov Isis different to0 v'hatwhat has happened 1in the pa"'tpast.. r,e~e are Inin a
ne'1c; 1i ua ion \hich akes a olitical for~forra in a security
cco T he.e sisituation uation ~s.:.s ore da serousgerous tthan an before . ,,'e:e to ca - .:.gn re i and hencee.ce ~~be e agree .... enven., o:'of nat:'o.a:;'is"'-snat::..o.alists. to s-ab:i . ... - .e .ee·.· " l.rIre lanan For .. . ·;e':e ha:. a··e e .._tp:'ed r _ed to exeY- ose I . peoppeop~e .... e - 0o .• StaS~a e 0o the pealitiesrea_!ties 0:-o~ un:'oH:"smunio .::.. sm . ~ee are r~~nbrying too f'.d~:".d some ;a':ay in::..n :hich. :"ch he scasea e o~ a:lenationalienation int~n t.e e
mi1,o 'i ~y co.~.co.~rr n::'ni tyJ :..nin the orth ca!'}can bee re 'ersed"ersed , ,·h:"ch·h::..ch ·i'ill 1
red cehece he ~oralemorale of the pporisioPro'isionals als a.dand the:"ptheir ab:..liab.:.lity y to use Yiolenceviolence . This is nothingnoth.:.ng to do \-;iwit} tl a Unitednited Ireland . ThisTh::.~,
is v;ha\'iha \·;e"e have to do and unionists ha'eha e to accomrr..odateaccoIT~nodate hemsel"eshemsel·es as well .
Cushnahan agreed withw:..th much of what the Taoiseach said but he
thoho ght i ;ould~ould take a lons time and asxedasked what would the Taoiseachmaoiseach suggest in the short time . The Taoiseach repliedrepli~d
thatha~ ourou roblemrob~ e:1: is that ~e\,ie have no ti~etime . ":e~e have to makeri.akE:
progress quickl . Ee asked ho~ho..... theyt .ey sa~ nor~alno"mal po_icing be:'...nge:'ng c.ch::..evedac ieved .
a ~ - .. sa:... - - ~ -
- .. e z.. •• e sec ·r::..--- ~orce:., ·or::.. - :s
a : o ~ ::a ce ~ ~e
e ;•1n1 er sai e had no o uU - so:;ieS01:":e S P "-ers.L. ers ere nowEO'
·o"-i g s·nn Fein gh bee recogn:sedecogn.:'sed thaa~·. thehe core of SinnSi n FeineiL supportsup ort is ne voters.vo ers. The Taoiseach asked what could be done on policingpo icing to enable the SDLP to support them withoutwithout losing votesotes ..
Napier~apier responded by saying that it is very difficultdifficult toto get competentcorr.petent Catholics toto taketake judicial posts as it is toto getget themthem - 6 - to join the nuc.HUC . There are two rC(lGonsrcnnons for thjt,hj f;.f; . OncOne i.8i.s tIwtth <:lt nQt of'of them feel thattllat it 1sis not vwrthworth theirthe ir ljljves ves to accept such pOGtspo::;ts.. 'J'he'l'hc second is that many CathoI'jCatho·:n cs do not commit themselvesthems elves becauie they do not know in what direction politics are gOjnggojng in Northern Ireland.Ireland . They need to feel that they have a place in the sun. On the other hand we have to recognise that Paisley got 230,000230 , 000 votes.votes . If we are talkingtalking about a unitary State there will be bloodshed.bloodshed . The alternative is to find a place in the sun in Northern Ireland for ' constitutional nationalism.nationalism . s;__~ ..,'" '>A·Ji"-4+'-'"'--'-1'''''--1 [1lJ l~0 - Jy~ - . The TaoiseachTa oiseach said there are two essentiaessentia~e preconditions.c onditions . ---., Firstly the unionist have to have a reassurance/1thatjreassuranc~that1 they vlOnwon 'It.'t:A . ~V<--1~V'-1 ·' tt
CushnCushnahana h a n complaine& ththata t constitutionconstitutionala l nnationalistsa tiona lists in ththee North could do more for their own case by spending more time in Northern Ireland than in the UU.S.,. S ., Brussels and DublinDublin.. Cook said that packages cannot be designdesigned.e d . NeithNeithe~thee ~the ProtestProtestanta nt communitycommuni ty nor ththee ·-Catholiccatholic community are monoli1jicmonoli ~ic.. Tl1erTheree is a minority in each which cannot be accommodatedaccommodated.. He was heartenheartenede d by the recognitionrecogn~tion of the._~ legitimacy of Irish culture in tthehe OUOUPP docudocumentme nt "TheliThe Way\vay Fonrnrd"Fon;ard".. Napier accepted that popoliticslitics hhavea ve cchangedh anged since 11973.973. ThThee chchangea n ge is ththata t bbotho th communities bbelievee lieve ththee BrBritishitish linlinkk to bbee mormoree frfragile.agile . ThTheree r e is a hheightenedeight ened eexpectationxpect a t ion wwithini thi n ththee miminoritynority cocommunitymmunity and a heightened ffearear within the majority community .. TThathat hhasa s raisedraise both0 h thehe stakes and the tension .. Sunningdale was an attematte ~ to rreacheach ana accommodaaccommodation ion within\-i thin ~orthern.0J~thern IrelandIrela d .. Since thenhe a be e ie:'ief has arariseni sen thatt at an accommodatacco Qodati"bnbn w\ iithinthin \or hern :=rerela ads d s i ossibleoss:ble or u desirabes"rab e .. 'i'hat_at belbe i"eref ca .. ea 0o o a::.a: a arc_ a c • . The':'he Protestar:"'csPro e tR.ts 'r :"' 11 ..21e noo co.cess!o.co .cess :'0. s !~ Br!L "sh so:ere!gn& !sq:'s q estio~edes :or..e . Eee accep'-saccep .... s
te.e _.::0 o· ·-: i e o_o. .... _as. as ~.aac soso=e... e os.:..0':: t;! -:. ·e-e resres_ po ons€- .se ::n'::r: un!on!stu .. :'o :'st - 7 - circlescj rclcf; ducdue lo thc'the }lundlinr;liandlinG of lh._ec Gov(;:rnment.Gov8rnmcnt. 'rhe'rhc !'er·c in·ir,. ·n·n ~ \ feelinefeel inc; tolbuoU1 HithinHi thin the DUI'DUl' and OUP ttwtthat some conceGGlollconCCGSlOll lIil1Hi l J. ."./ have to be made tl10uehtl!ouc;h theythC:!y Clare l'e no vlherev1hcrc ne'arne·ar villav1llat t the SDLP ~'- could accept.accept .
The Taoiseach said that the fundamental change since 1974197~ has been the growlhsrowlh in support for violence.violence . Cushnahan said that the t\':(1twc• communicomu uni ties had moved further apart as the incincrease rease in su rroro for PaisleyPaislel shows . Both the Sinn Fein and Paisley's votesotes are sympto atic of hardening attitudes in the two communitiescommunities.. The TaolseachTaoiseach felt that the problem with Sunningdale was that the unionists felt that the ground would move under their feet. We now need to look at something which is seen to be durable and is so. Cook doubted if anything could be durable without the agreement of the Leader of the Opposition. He stressed power-sharingpower- sharing in N~rthern Ireland, a ParliamenParliamen~ary.tary Tier and improved Anglo- Irish relations . In response to a question from the Minister he said that one way to deal with Parliamentary Tier would be to have the Anglo-IrishAnglo- Irish Council extended to the Parliamentary level . Alliance have not gonegOne into how a Parliamentary Tier would work but they saw it principally in terms of London and Dublin with room found for those in the Assembly who wish to participate . It should not require a vote in its favour by the Assembly . The Taoiseach asked if it might be triangular Dublin , London, Belfast to which Cushnahan said yes if the numbernumberss contemplated were sufficiently large perhaps 20 , . 20 , 10 . He did not think membership should be open to members of the European Parliament. The criteria should be to get reasonable num~ersnumbers but the reality is that unionists would not participateparticipate..
cC is a me.merr. e·er of t.etee e ort Co:::.Co~ it°t ee of the hssessemblmbl a ata s r~ir01 g -o-0 ~~ormuorrrou a e ro osals for a
r- a ·:o':0 e ...... :ce -te i1. Loi;O '; .ee ,'.,.sse;'sse~
he '-"o--•"-'" - - :..s -- 8B -
Cush11'1l1an said the Porumorum Heport is not a rea.listicrealintic otartint.:;ntartin[; oin . . The do not disagreedisaGree much vithwith the analysis.analynis. They want
o re-;:rire- ;ri e Su 1ingdalelin~dale .. The inlsterster asked if Chapter 5 gave a op .or o0 . aKeake progress . CusCus. aha~ resporenpo ded saysaJ ng
...1 a h founfo n dd':- · """. c 1 ~i~h'ith the conclusions of the ·orum to ·;h':'ch he re"e o.0: se ,'as·c_s aceade .... ha thet.e on:.yon_y proposaroposa _s i t.. e Ree o~ is ha -e~ 5 . 2 . aanc tatthat nO.eo_e o:0:' the4-he proposals. roposals :_n::. .. 5 . 2 a e i~ .cons.:..s+-e.co sis e ..... ·i. .: L1.. 't"·ha a~ J\.-lialliance .ce had sa:_dsaid ::n~n the meetingmeet _ng .
T.ehe ~a iseach as~easke do ·e"e alla_I agree K:~! the pro osals in 5 . 2 an ao theyhe: pro·:_pro-!de ea a :ra~ra .eKork,eKork for a solutiosolutio~ . . . ressed that pol:_ticalpolitica part:_espart::'es have intrepreted the conclus·onsus':'ons a::~fere.d!:'fe el tl·tly rr:entioningmentioning 5 .7 t;Oto which' .. :: ch the ':'ao::'seachrnaoiseach res .ded therehere is a vorld\'ior_d of difference betveenbetHeen 11 ;ould'ou_d ,ish;ish to seeee and ·a roroposa_ osa_ ,. Cook could not see any diffdi~~ eererencence and sa2.dsaid .he ._ epore or'" ... d::.dd!d o0'" memention .. tion the ononl" · realistic solu ion
·hi",.ich':'8 ch is o.0 ·e:''e:'- s .n=-::.a::-':. .g •,\i,.. i :.hin"Gh':'n . or4-he=-,or._ e::-', :::rela.d: re land . '-''I e '=aor:::'ao::seac~ seac. .. sa:osaid .hehe sa:s :_~.j. _ 5 . 2 a~e2.!.""'C hete esse:-:ceesse~ce orao~ tt.e e :leport~e ort . ~.e~ .. e es ... _
a _f'e C..E a it :s G ' er lIIlenten t 'tashas -; e " h :"' a a' f" ill . h.a..,a "'" hhanan ac.. w hher.er.
Cusushnahahnaha. sa::da:d hhatat while ye'e agree on cacauses ses wee might disagreedisae;ree oon 4-he"-he rell. .ed·.ed·T. ITher.:he statetateJ:1ent .. ent isissued sued b AlliaAlliance ce the preprevious ious dayda [to"'0 yhicl·:h · c tlt;l e Go ernment tooktool· exception] \'lasHas issued because the't;he are deadeali ing e; wiwith h percep ions . People in the .orthorth think he coconcl cl sio of thet;he Report is a united IrelandIreland.. The e ents - 9 - ("".("; \':hich\·:hich happclledhap cned on thetl1e dayda: on Hhich th(:the l:cpO,e-tl:cpo_c.t Has\."as i:::;coucdis"ued are imporim or "ant·ant . HcHe said that they welcomed the manner jnin which the GovernmentGo\crnment is handling the Report.Report . Lillis asked would Alliance be prepared to be helpful by saying tllattl1at the Taoiseach had told them that the only propo:::;als/conclusionsproposals/conclusions in thcthe Report are 5 .2. 2 and that they accept that interpretation . Cook criticised the lack of activity on the part of the British Government.Government . They seem willing to deal only with one or two I points at a time rather than with the main issues together.together .
The Taoiseach said we have tried to open up attitudes.attitudes . The descriptive analysis in the Report should be helpful,helpful , certain models are put forward and it is accepted there are other views.views . He asked why had Alliance rejected the Report out of hand and why specifs pecificallyically had they rejected ."thet he Jointjoint authorityautho r ity modelmodel.. ·cook'Cook responded saying that the reason lies in their asking to what extent the Government believes it can get the support of the opposition.opposition . The Taoiseach said that the consent of the oppo~ition is not necessary for durabilitydurability..
apierapler said there is nothing in 5 . 2 withKith wh:'...chYh~ch they disagreedisagr(:e.. Tne:·The:' d:'...sagreed:'sagree ,"'i.. i th 5 . ~7 . EeHe h:'...nlrnh::"nks 5.85 . 8 a .._d d 5 . 9 are not
_ o.:..0':" ..-i.;; i .;; 1.· . '-he~he rigig.. t di!'"'ect.:..o.directio. . CouCou::'d_d oot:1er :.e!'"' Tie·j_e~-s ";s be
0..o.. e as.:.sa::"s o:'0:' 5 . 2 (fro ...,,. _cc ,._ t.t_ e • do r.04-.o~ -:..s e. ~) . c s e!"' .... so::e t.: , ,p-.'- ~O a .-- e.. 5. 2 c.Sr:~._g i:' E. e ter rela ~o_sh~ e-e ' ee-ee: a : e .e. i·cl'c ande d parar ners :'...~
or ...... e!... Irere a d co _d e so de~idefi .ed.ec. Coor:Cook re ea~edea ed there.. ere 'ss a1·er:a-·oalieTla io n bot'ot cor.:.. nii .:.esies a. d askedas red iinsufficient -~ su&'f ic::..e t grou d .. coldco d e found$'oun i t e centre to proro ide. de ddurab:;..lit' rability .
TheT e Taoiseach said duradurability ility is importantiQPortant for the unionists ..
They should not see a solution as a step on the ro~dr~d to Irish unityunit' and it should provide reassurance of sovereignty unless the attitudes of the population change. At the same time it should provide a sense for the minority that they are equal and that their aspiration to Irish unity can remainremain.. The first -- toto agree to a fixing of sovereignty - is difficult for us .. On -- 10- •
ththee other·othcr' :nidc; icl c how can thethe rninori __~Y~y be given cquaJ jjty ty wit.h the fr'(ihjority. It can't be done by a change of soverc:je;ntysovel'~j e;nty bu-tbut!1 wi tlitll inin excxi 1st Gt ininr;~ sovcsove rerc ig;nty.ignty . Unless thethe na-t'ionalna-t'ionaliGt is t community ccana n looklook to ththe ir traditional a3piration and toto thithiss State asac ththee mmajoritya jority looklook to London then therethere will be no durability. ThThee MiniMinisters t e r ssaida id mmanya ny think time is past when a Sunningdale MMarka r k II11 cocouldu l d ssucceed.uccee d.
CusCushnahanh nahan ssaidaid unioniunionistss ts see joint authority as a diminution of sovereignty. ThThe~ .. T1'aoiseacha oisea ch said that Britain can decide withwi trJini n the bounds of sovereignty how to administer NorthNortherne rn IrelIreland.a nd. The thrthreee e models are illustrative. The MinMinlsteri ster stressed ththata t we are awawaitinga iting the viviewse ws of the British and we havhavee not yyetet reareachedched the stage of discussing anything in detail. CushnCushnahanahan said he is not interested in the three models. He wants to look at other solutions which could meet the criteria of the Government and of the unionists. A gradualist approach is required and he cannot at this stage see the unionists coming to a conference table. Cook repeated that it would be difficult to get the British to take any initiative. The TaoisTaoiseacheach askeda s ked ·-AllAlliancei a nce to leaveleave timtimee for the British to rreacte act and do not anticipate too much. Further discussion then took place on the ParliaParliamentarymentary Tier on which the Taoiseach mentioned thattha t he doubted if the AllianceAlliance position wwouldo uld be adequateade qua te to solve ·current-current problemsproblems particularlyparticu larly in the security area.area . The proposalsprop osals of the New IrelandIrela nd ForumForum RReporteport could not
be moremore open.ope n. He askedaske~ if Allianc~ could not assent to 5.2. BothBoth powerp ower sharing s haring and a parliamentaryparliamentary tier would beb e importantimportant eleelementmentss of any solutions olu tion wi th~th~th thee termsterms of 5.2. AfterAf ter Cushnahan had repeated hish i s earliere a rlier objections,ob jections , NapierNapier said s aid theret here isi s ana n area where thet h e BritishBritish GovernGo vernmentment cannotc annot iimposmposee a-a · solution.s o l ution . The ReportReport CommitteeCo mmittee of thet h e AssemblyAssembly cannotc annot go far enoughe nough to accommodate thethe SDLP.SDLP . An imposedi mposed solutionsolution from the BritisBritish v;ouldwou:d be unacceptable to unionists.unionists . HeHe -. doesd oes not take exception to0 5.2.5 . 2 . There -:ill~ill bebe no consent fromf rom uJ~ionists ::onists for
aa. '~hi~h~r.g -b he' sees ee as a stestep to un·t-.unity . He acceptsa ccepts that thethe
po sib::litsib~lity of aan eeve.tual 'e .. tual unitarunitary StaState e can,otcannot be ru_edr uled ou~
for t.lethe na~nc...,io io aal istsis ts . Ho'Ho· do you deal',;"'deal ··ith th tt;.ese .. ese t\t _·o .. - 11- \\ . • \ • a::;pja:.;pj rationsrat1onc and achieve stablJGtabiJ ityity. ~ Can sOJlleso111c pror;rc:H~proGrc:rn bcbe.. made .• ·1 v/hichrihich doe[;does not dinaf'fectdiaaffcct the unionist community?community.
The TaolseachTaoiseach as~ed Alliance to think about (1)(i) what can be done to ensure the nationalists that thcirtheir identity is on an equal footing with thcthe unionist identity ((ii)ii) what can be done to acllieveacliieve a situation in which the security forces can operate normally and which deal with support for terrterrorists.o rists . The
MinisterMjnister added that if a solution i~ not based on changes in security structures it will not be acceptableacceptable.. Cushnahan repeated the point made about power sharing and about the Parliamentary TierTier..
At this stage as the meeting was coming to a close there was a brief exchange about the position on Kinsale Gas.Gas . The Tanaiste said that we supported the agreement made last November.November . We feel that all contingencies were allowed for in that agreement and we have gone back to the British on that basis . Ve now await their response.response .
Cushnahan said the:they ~elcomed-~elcomed the Govern~ent'sGovernment's stand in bringing ShanShannonnon and ficGlinche'~cGlinchey to the Supreme Court . They accepted it was a namat er for the courts but they appreciated the effort the AttorneJAttorne General had put into the prosecutions.prosecutions . The extraditions would"lould be helpful in l'orthern'orthern Ireland.Ireland . The meeting ended with the Alliance delegation thanking the Governent for
it. // ·-.
D.D. 0 Ceallaigh 3 August 1984 \