University of Texas at El Paso ScholarWorks@UTEP
Combined Interviews Institute of Oral History
4-18-1974
Interview no. 125
Crampton Jones
Follow this and additional works at: https://scholarworks.utep.edu/interviews
Part of the Oral History Commons, and the Social and Behavioral Sciences Commons
Recommended Citation Interview with Crampton Jones by Robert H. Novak, 1974, "Interview no. 125," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.
This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Institute of Oral History at ScholarWorks@UTEP. It has been accepted for inclusion in Combined Interviews by an authorized administrator of ScholarWorks@UTEP. For more information, please contact [email protected]. UNIVERSITYOF TEXAS AT EL FASO INSTITUTEOF ORAL HISTORY
I NTERV I EIdEE : Col. H. CramptonJones (1893- )
I IITERVI EI,JER : RobertH. Novak PROJECT: TheMexican Revolution DATEOF INTERVIEII: Apri'l 18, 1974 TERI'ISOF USE: Unrestricted
TAPENt).: 125 TRANSCRIPTI,IC.: 125 TRAIISCRIBER: RobertH. Novak DATETRANSCRIBED: April, 1974
BIOGRAPHICALSYNOPSIS OFII\TERVIEIJEE: .l9.I6. Memberof PershingExpeditionof
sui'ii'4ARY0F IIITERVIEi'l: Personalities and eventsof the PershingPunitive Ex- pedition into Mdxico.
45 minutes(1 7/8 tape speed);13pages. intervievrwith Col. H. CramptonJones by RobertH. Novakon April lB, 1974.
N: ColonelJones, to start whydon't you just give mea litile bit of biognaphica'lbackground about yourself.
J: All right. I wasborn Novernber 4, lB93 in a litile armypost on the
ColumbiaRiver, VancouvenBaracks or Fort Vancouver.It,s acrossfrom Portland, 0regon. My father wasan officer in the old Sixth infantry.
Thearmy then wasrather small. He had goneto WestPoint in the same year' lBB2' that his classmateGeneral Pershing had gone. I wasthen,
naturally, broughtup in the army,an armybrat as we call ourselves, and traveled with rnyfather and motherand sister from one armypost
to another'across the continentand twice to the PhilippineIslands. Before I wastwelve I had beenaround the world by armytransport.
So I naturally hada love of the armyand I followedmy father to ' WestPoint, enteringthere in ]912. I graduated1916 in June. Villa hadalready raided Columbus,New Mexico, which was of coursein March
l916' while I wasstill a cadet. l^lefollowed with interest the events Jones
of the PunitiveExpedition. I wasassigned to the field artillery
branchof the armyand specifically to the old FourthField Artillery"
which is knownas packartil'lery, mountainbatteries. Theweapon is a 2.95 inch howitzer,equivalent to the 75 millimeter Frenchgun in caliber. 0f course,the weaponis divided into four loads for a mule and packedon the top of the mulesso that they can go anywherein the mountains,just anywhere. I joined the FourthField Artillery as a first lieutenant, havingbeen promoted rapidly. A hlestPoint graduate
is first a secondlieutenant, but WoodrowWilson, the president, had urged Congressto pass a law that increasedthe armyby five yearly
increments,because the Europeanwar wason and he sawthe needfor
a larger army. It wasonly 75,000officers andmen together at that
time. That Punitive Expeditionurged congress to put not only the one incrementthrough, but all five of themat once. That mademe a first
lieutenant. I then joined Battery "C" of the old FourthArtillery down there at campin ColoniaDublu'n n.ur" Casas Grandes, about 125miles south
of the borderat Columbus.I did not ioin immediatelyafter graduation in June, but wasgranted the usual so-called "graduationleave," which I took. I then joined in the middleof september1916. I went by rail
to Columbus,New Mexico and got off the train there and transfemedto a truck train. That wasgenerally the modeof transportationsouth of the borderfor long distances. It took two days to arrive at colonia
Dubla'n. The roads were very poor; in fact, there were no real roads at all. Almosteach day the truck train wouldseek out a newroad becausethe ruts becameso deep, filled either with mudor with dust. Jones
Incidentally, one could see a truck train z0 or 30 miles awayby the
cloud of dust that it raised. Therewere about 24 or 25 trucks in a
train, four wheeldrive. Manyof themwere FWD' which means four wheeldrive, and somewere the white companytrucks. so I arrived
at my station and commencedmy duties as a youngofficer. we call a youngofficer a shavetail,and that title lasts until someyounger
officer comesalong. Myduties weregenerally camp duties becausethe movementof troops, the chaseafter villa, had finished. I foundthat my battery hadbeen long enoughin this one campto construct for
themselvesadobe bamacks, an adobemess hall, and quarters for the officers' simplymixing the clay there with a little strawand building
very comfortablebui'ldings. Thecavalry had not donequite so much. Eachtwo menin one shelter tent haddug downand built up the side wall so that they cou'ldstand up in a sma]l tent using the shelter
tent as a roof only. But it wasdecided by my battery commanderto be advisableto havemore comfortable quarters. Themen were not occupied in chasingVil'la anymore.We had marches and we had target practice, and a youngofficer suchas I wouldspend time on routine duties -- taking eariy morningreveille andsupervising stables, the groomingand feeding
of the animals. But I wasassigned to special duty two times. It was rather interesting one time whenthe commanderof a wagontrain got a month'sleave and cameback to the UnitedStates to visit his family; I wasassigned as commanderof this long wagontrain. It consistedof two wagoncompanies of 24 four-muleteam escort wagons. Its duty was to haul forage for the cavalry farther south. I,.letook hay and oats from Jones
the train at CasasGrandes over Charcospass, whichwas Z0 niles away,
on downinto the valley to El valle, in an adjacentriver valley, and
back again -- it was a three day trip eachway. That was very interesting -- for the monththat I was in commandI was the only officer, thoughI did havea civilian veterinarianwho was very capable. we wereable to travel day after day and this little veterinarian, Docwelch, I rememberas being very faithful and fine.
Incidentally, his father had hada livery stable in san Franciscoat the time of our engagementwith the Filipinos in the insurrection of .|899 and had sold the mulesto the u. s. government.I had beside
DocWelch a very fine wagonmaster-- no, I shouldcall him a train- mastersince we had two wagoncompanies -- o]d SergeantToft had been in the cavalry for manyyears and he handledthose teamstersvery well.
Theteamsters, incidentally, thoughin uniformand called soldiers, were
real1yjust muleskinnersfrom the farm. Theydidn,t knowmuch, if
anything, about the manualof arms, andyet eachwas armed and had by his seat a boot with a rifle. In addition, though,I hada guard,and sitting on the other side of the seat from the driver or teamsterI had an infantryman.Then at night I couldpark the vehicles, usually in a
c'ircle as they did in the old Indian daysoand hada guardaround camp. we encounteredMexicans on the road, a troop of cavalry nowand then, but they were carrancistas and of course friendly. The chaseafter
villa wasgiven up, as everyoneknowsn about christmastime of 19.|6. It wasdecided that the expeditionshould withdraw. I supposedthat everyonerealized that we might be drawninto l,{orldlllar I, which had Jones
beengoing on for two to three years in Europe. Incidentally, 1
think it might be interesting for peopleto knowabout litile experiencesI had before we withdrew. I happenedto be on christmas Day1916 the officer of the guard, in chargeof the prisonersin a wire stockade. That day has beenrecorded as a very stormyweather day all a'longthe Mexicanborder. It affected us downthere at Colon'iaDubldn next to CasasGrandes because Gen. Pershing had planned
an enormousbarbecue for the men. For two days he had preparedthese
steers and they were being barbecuedin a trench. But whenthis stormcame along, one could not see but a few feet in front of him,
and of coursethe barbecuedbeef wasruined, coatedwith mudand dust. Theonly roof that we hadat ColoniaDubldn, our camp,was on the signal corpsbuilding; it wasgalvanized iron. It blewup and into
the stockade,setting fire to the tents in there. we huddledthe prisonersin one corner -- four of themhad beencharged with murder,
so it wasa difficult situation. Oneother specia'lduty job that I hadwhile I wasstfll downin Mdxico,and that with the quartermaster
department,was that of officer in chargeof the issue of meat. The expedition had a contract with the two Houghtonbrothers whohad a 'large ranch halfway downfrom Columbus,as I remember,to CasasGrandes. Theywould supply each day to us 12 headof cattle. TheMexicans would
slaughterthem and we would hang them in a long adobehouse which had no windows,hang them on one side, and issue the other 12 whichhad beenslaughtered the day before. you see, of course there was no refrigeration. Themeat was palatable, but at first menwho had been Jones
usedto refrigerated meator meathe'ld longer were not pleasedwith
it' but graduallythey beganto'like it, andit wasall right, Then
we were orderedout and we marched. My regimentdid not comeout as
far as Columbusbut branchedoff to the northeastbelow Columbus, joining the railroad betweenColumbus and El Pasoat aboutmidpoint
wherewater cars werespotted for us. we arrived at Fort Bliss, I think in aboutthe middleof JanuaryrlgrTrandwent into camp. It's there that we were on April 6owhenwar was declaredagainst Germany. My regimentwas divided into two parts, forming a newregiment and maintainingthe old. Thenew regiment was the Fifteenth Field Artillery, to whichI wasassigned.
N: Let mego backand ask you iust a coupleof questionsI haveabout the Punitive Expeditionand then we could talk aboutyour experiencesin WorldWar I.
ldell' of course,that's all beenwritten up, aboutworld ldar I. I was
assigned,as I sd.y,to the Fifteenth Field Artillery, whichwas part of
the secondDivision, whichwent overseas early andfought well. But I had beenordered to Fort Sill, 0klahomarasan instructor whereI taught gunneryand materiel. I only went to Francefollowing the armistice whereI wason duty, various duties, and then hada leave. I then camehome, back here to Fort Bliss, whereI wasassigned early in .|920 to the 82ndHorse Artillery andwhere I met Harriet Howze,the general's daughter. Wewere married that year.
Let meask you this regardingthe PershingExpedition at the time you wereat ColoniaOublJn. Whatwas the generalmorale among the soldiers Jones
that had beenchasing Villa? Wasthere a feeling of discouragement
that they hadn't capturedhim? Howwould you assessthe moraleof the veteransof the expedition?
J: Themen were good -- they weregood soldiers. Theyknew the whole situation. Theywere anxious to go on to do somethingif there was somethingto be done. Thesewere wonderful men in the old army, and they wouldsuffer hardshipsand not complain. For example,it began to get quite cold beforewe withdrewand the menhad only these olive drab sweatersthat hadbeen issued. BeforeI joined, all of the weather had beentemperate and they went into Mdxicoin summeruniforms. But it beganto get a little cold, but there wasno comp'laining.The men
not having,of course,€rtertainment provided for themwould try to
entertain themselves. Perhapsthe greatest entertainmentwas that of
the card games,of pokerand of gamb'ling.The first, or payday,every soldier hada little money,but pretty soonit wouldget concentrated in the handsof the best playersr €v€hto the point wherein one
regimentsome men and the supplysergeant, for example,of an adjacent
battery seemedto havebeen most successful. I say that becausewhen we had arrived here at Fort Bliss from Mdxicohe had enoughmoney to buy severa'lcars and estab'lish his owntaxi system-- I rememberthat quite well. Well, that wasone form of entertainment,but there was not very much. l^letried to keepthe menbusy, taking care of animals
and on marchesand target practice, but I don't believe that after I arrived in Mdxicothat there wasany enemyaction -- possibly that engagementat Carrizal' I don't rememberthe date -- but not muchelse. Jones
N: Howabout this idea that you read aboutthat the PershingExpedition
wassoit of a training groundfor world war I for the soldiers -- howwould you assessthat?
J: I donrt think that it wasat all assuredthat we wouldenter hjorld war I at that time, certainry whenthe expeditionentered Mdxico. 0n the other hand, I believe that presidentWilson and the War Department,which was the namethen for the present pentagon--
I don't believe that the war Departmentfully expectedus to be in the war, thoughthe motto of the army is "In peacebe preparedfor
war." So it providedan excuse,'letus say, for orderingout National Guardtroops, establishingthem in campsalong the border, not to enter Mdxicoebutto congregatefor training. It did serve that purpose
and it wasa help in our initial deploymentand engagement in world
lrlarI. That's aboutal'l I can say -- the continuationof the tradition of in peaceprepare for war.
cou'ldwe ta]k about someof the personalitiesyou rememberfrom the
expedition? For instance, howdo you rememberGeneral pershing -- any incidentsin particular that wouldtell us anythingabout his character? hlell' GeneralPershing was a very goodfriend of my father and he seemed to take a liking to me, invited meto his ownprivate messand things of that sort. Healways would send, throughme, his regardsto rnyfather becausethey were cadets together. l^lhenGeneral Pershing went into the cavalFJ,tltyfather went into the infantry; I don't remembertheir ever serving together. My father, whenthe expeditionwas in Mdxico,was in commandof a regimentof infantry, the FourteenthInfantry, campedat Jones
Douglas,Arizona. But that's aboutall -- Generalpershing was very
nice to me. I think it's becausehe liked ny father. I knewthe staff officers of GeneralPershing and I hadcontact with themin
connectionwith myduties as commanderof the wagontrain. I would report back to themeach time I madea round trip to El valle and back. hlewere on the road all the time.
N: Howabout GeorgePatton -- I guesshe was Lieutenantpatton at that time. Did you haveany contact with him?
'J: I did not knowhim at that time. Hewas an earlier class at Westpoint.
Hewas 1909, as I remember,and I'm a class of 19.|6. So we werenot cadets together. But whenI cameback from Worldl^lar I to Fort Bliss, GeneralPatton, then a major I believe, as I was, wason the staff of
GeneralHowze, my father-in-law, andwe werehere togetherat that time.
That was, of course, following the expedition-- I did not knowhim during the expedition. I knewhim and his wife better from I 924to 1927in the HawaiianIslands whenwe weretogether in the Hawaiian Departmentthere, the HawaiianDivision. Hewas then the s-3 or
operationsofficer for the HawaiianDivision. Wewere very close to themsocially becauseBeatrice Pattonwas a goodfriend of ours. we
wouldvisit themat Hamiltonnear Bostonand were there whentheir daughterBeatrice Jr. wasmarried to Generalt^lalters, Johnny Walters.
That's perhapsal1 you're interestedin. I admiredhim as a soldier
and in the mannerin whichhe commandedthe Third Armyin WorldWar II. I hadcontacts with him in that war but wasnot in his Third Army-- I wasin Bradley's First Armyand then Generalsimpson's Ninth Army Jones t0
at the end.
N: Howabout GeneralHowze -- what could you tel1 us about GeneralHowze? J: we]l, of coursehe's r4yfather-in-lawrand Genera'l Howze I knewvery well. He, incidentally, went to Westpoint whenmy father wasalready there. He followedmy father and GeneralPershing and enteredin 1883. So he wasa class behindGeneral pershing and my father. But my father becameill and wasturned backr as the! SaV,to the class of lgg7, which is the class that GeneralHowze was in. GeneralHowze, though, in turn becamesick andwas turned back to the class of lggg and
graduatedin that year. so eachone for the samereason turned back
oneyear. Genera'lPershing, though, continued and graduatedwithout
illness in'1886, the regular time. GeneralHowze was, of course,in the Punitive Expedition. Hevlas a major then of the Eleventhcavalry.
TheEleventh practically led the expeditionand the chaseafter Villa. GeneralHowze had formeda crack squadronof picked menand picked
horsesat the final stagesof the chasefor Villa andmade the longest
24 hourmarch that I knowof -- it was75 miles, the sameman on the samehorse, of courseleading, the manwould walk a while. But that is a measureof the enduranceand training of those soldiers. General
Howzewas a Medalof Honorman. Hewas engaged in Indian fighting
followinghis graduationin 1888in the BlackHills of SouthDakota.
He was awardedthe Medalof Honorfor escapingan encirclementby the Indiansand goingwith a corporal backto the post and getting
reinforcementsthat savedthe command.General Howze commanded,
before he camehere to Fort Bliss, at the end of 1919,iust before ,lones 1l
I did. the Third Divisionof our armyon the Marnein the last
stagesof the Argonnein hjorldwar I and had then taken his Third
Division to occupythe Rhinefollowing the armistice. But then he wasordered back here with a view to organizingthe First cavalry
Division, whichwas done commencing at the time I camein 1920. It wasfinally organizedone or two years later whenal'l the troops were assembled.
N: Thelast namethat I'd like to ask you about is MajorTompkins, Tommy Tompkins-- did you knowhim?
J: Yes, I knewTommy Tompkins quite wel]. Hewas a widowerwhen I came back from world !'lar I. He commandedthe seventhcavalry here then,
custer's own. Hev'tas a colorful man. I wasa bachelorand he wasa widower,so I wouldsee him at parties and in Ju/rez and other places.
I got to'like himvery much. His daughter,incidentally, marriedDick .|920 Singer-- I think west Point class of about -- whowas also in
my regimentin Hawaiiin 1924in the EleventhField Artillery. Tommy Tompkinshad a faculty of arousingenthusiasm in his regiment. The
regiment,of course,had a colorful record already, and Tommywould developthat. Everyman was proud to be in the o]d Seventh. There 'liked are manystories abouthim, and I him very much. Nowif you are interested jn the PershingExpedition, I'm sure you've probably
read chaslngvi'lla by his brother, colonel FrankTompkins. Tommy
wasn't the kind whowou'ld write stories much-- ColonelFrank Tompkins, his brother, was.
N: Just onemore personality I'd like to ask about,switching over to the Jones 12
other side -- whatdid the soldiers think aboutpancho villa?
whatwas the generalattitude towardpancho villa at the time you v,rereat Co'loniaDubla6?
J: Well, you see, he wasonly a nameto them. In the old army,a soldier wouldknow generally what the situation was,but specifically
they cared only about the immediatecommanders and orders. They knewthey wereon an expeditioninto Mejxicobut the individual soldier didn't knowwhether it wasa punitive expeditionor whetherit wasto preventfurther incursionsof our Unitedstates. Themen in general
don't think abovetheir owncommand -- that's for the higher-ups,for the staff officers. Andeven the staff offjcers, Generalpershing
himself-- of course,I can't be sure of this -- couldn't havebeen
sure of howlong the expeditionwou'ld last, whenthey wouldbe
withdrawn,or of anythingIike that. Hewas a subordinate,he took orders, andthat's the wayit is. Youhave a daily mission,you have
a longerm"ission perhaps, and you carry it out, but you don't always
knowthe situation backof the particular mission. Andthat's the way it is with soldiers -- they're not interested too muchin anything
beyondtheir owncommand and makinga goodrecord for their own command,performing their duties in the mostoutstanding manner. That's aboutall the questionsI have,unress you haveany other experiencesof yours, specific incidentsthat you,d like to tell us about.
I think onelittle interestingthing is that on the banksof the Casas
GrandesRiver we usedto hunt ducks. Theywou'ld come from the north Jones l3
to the south and I ight on the water. I had sent back for my shotgun
andwe officers wouldhunt there. hlewould ride on our horsesup
the river until we spottedthem ahead and then turn our horsesover
to the orderly to hold. I was puzzledby the small moundsthat we rode up uponalong the river. I spottedon one of themsome pieces of shell and pottery. Onetime I took somemen with entrenching tools, shovelsand picks, to excavateand foundthat thesewere old dwellingsand had beenoccupied about a thousandyears before by Indianswho had migrated farther south. Now,following that, there's quite a bit of excavationin that area of CasasGrandes. I did not saveany of the relics, little white shel'lsoeach pierced to makea necklaceand things of that sort, but we wouldexcavate a wholeroom
and find charredrafters, we wouldfind a big pot in the corner where
they kept grain or water. Nowadays,of course, they knowmore about it. N: I guessthat's aboutal'l I have. Thankyou very much,Colonel Jones. J: Not at all, Mr. Novak-- I'm very happyto havehelped you.